Republic of Botswana DEBATES OF THE NTLO YA DIKGOSI

OFFICIAL REPORT

FIFTH MEETING OF THE SECOND NTLO YA DIKGOSI

Sitting from 17 - 28 January 2011 THE PROCEEDINGS

of the

FIFTH MEETING

of the

NTLO YA DIKGOSI (Official Report)

Sitting from 17 - 28 January 2011

i NTLO YA DIKGOSI CHAIRMAN Kgosi Puso Gaborone Batlokwa DEPUTY CHAIRMAN Kgosi Lotlamoreng II Barolong MEMBERS Kgosi K. Boiditswe Serowe Region Kgosi I. Gaoonwe Letlhakeng Region Kgosi B. Garebakwena Molepolole Region Kgosi M. Kahiko III Ghanzi West Kgosi S. H. Kgamane Bangwato Kgosi Kgari III Bakwena Kgosi K. Lempadi Okavango Region Kgosi O. Machilidza Boteti Region Kgosi M. Malema Bobirwa Region Kgosi T. M. Masunga North East Kgosi M. Mmualefhe Chobe Region Kgosi A. O. Monnaathebe Thamaga Kgosi P. K. Montshiwa Kgalagadi North Kgosi K. Moremi Batawana Kgosi S. Moroka Tswapong Kgosi J. Moseki Ghanzi East Kgosi T. B. Ndzonga Tutume Kgosi B. Ramokone Kanye Kgosi K. Ramokwena Maun Kgosi E. Potsoeng Ngami Region Kgosi M. Seboko Balete Kgosi P. Seeletso Tonota Region Kgosi Malope II Bangwaketse Kgosi P. Sekwenyane Ngwaketse West Kgosi K. Telekelo Moshupa Kgosi T. F. Tshipe Mahalapye Region Kgosi Toto II Kgalagadi South Kgosi S. Esterhuizen Specially Elected Kgosi M. Moeti II Specially Elected Kgosi M. Seemeko Specially Elected Kgosi M. M. Sinvula Specially Elected Kgosi T. Xao Specially Elected ii Secretary : N. Thebe

Assistant Secretary M. Moreri

Proof Reading : A. B. Gaobotse

Layout : Badisa M. Morue Bakang B. Khumanego E. Dodkins

Edited by : A. B. Gaobotse E. Dodkins

Translated by : K. Nyanga K. Ben M. Kagiso B. Morakanyane

Typesetting : Hansard Reporters

iii Table of Contents

Chairman’s Announcement ...... 116 Chairperson’s Remarks ...... 5, 7, 62, 134, 188 Election of Chairperson ...... 1 Election of Deputy Chairperson ...... 2 Motions Appointment of Minister for Presidential Affairs and Public Administration as the Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi ...... 23 Resumed Debate ...... 107 Resumed Debate ...... 131 Construction of a Tarred Road ...... 19 Construction of Speed Humps along the A1 Road ...... 24 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District ...... 170 Halting Churches Registration ...... 35 Installation of Traffic Lights at Major Villages/Peri Urban and Traffic Updates by Police Officials ...... 164 Introduction of a Training Plan ...... 148 Introduction of P100 Levy on Cattle Farmers .. 205 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration ...... 73 Provision of Expertise and Machinery for Purposes of Drilling Boreholes ...... 215 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana ...... 152 Upgrading the Payment of Dikgosi ...... 100 Questions for Oral Answer ...... 7, 62, 116, 134, 189 iv Monday 17th January 2011 Election of Chairperson

Monday 17th January 2011 the rules that guide the electoral THE HOUSE met at 09:55 a.m. process and they explain that every Member in this House has (THE CHAIRMAN in the a right to either vote or stand Chair) for these elections. The Second P R A Y E R S Schedule continues to explain * * * * that any Member of the House may nominate any other Member ELECTION OF for election as the Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If that nomination is seconded SECRETARY: Good morning the Presiding officer shall call Honourable Members. As it upon the Member so nominated shows in our Order Paper, we are and seconded to declare whether going to conduct elections for the he/she accepts the candidature Chairman and his/her Deputy. or not. The process shall be Before we continue I would like repeated and we shall write the to refer to the Rules of Procedure, names of the candidates on the Rule 3 (1), and it reads thus,” blackboard placed in full view There shall be a Chairperson and of all the Members. When all Deputy Chairperson of Ntlo ya the nominations have been Dikgosi. At the first meeting of received I shall announce the Ntlo ya Dikgosi in any one year names of all the Members who or after a general election to the have been duly nominated and National Assembly, or whenever seconded and have accepted ,at any other time, either office candidature. After the voting is vacant, Ntlo ya Dikgosi shall has been concluded and the proceed immediately to the Chairperson has been declared, election of Chairperson and he /she shall then be led to go Deputy Chairperson, or either, and robe so that he/she can as the case maybe, following the come and conduct the elections procedure set out in the Second of the Deputy Chairman. I Schedule”. shall be gradually explaining the voting process as we go It is the beginning of the year on and I shall now allow the and as per procedure we are nominations of the candidates going to have the elections. I will for the Chairmanship position. continue to provide guidance Please raise your hands if you from the Rules of Procedure and wish to make a nomination. from the Second Schedule we see

1 Monday 17th January 2011 Election of Deputy Chairperson

KGOSI KAHIKO III (GHANZI SECRETARY: ... (Inaudible) ... WEST REGION): Good Please pardon me; I had forgotten morning Honourable Members. I to switch on the microphone, nominate Kgosi Puso Gaborone Section 4 of the second schedule for the Chairmanship position. of the Rules of Procedure reads thus, “if only one member has SECRETARY: Kgosi Puso been nominated and seconded Gaborone has been nominated, and has accepted candidature, the is there anyone who seconds the presiding officer shall forthwith nomination? declare him or her to be elected KGOSI MOSEKI (GHANZI as Chairperson”. I believe that EAST REGION): I second this then declares Kgosi Puso Kgosi Kahiko Gaborone as the Chairman of this House and we congratulate SECRETARY: Kgosi Moseki him on that note. I shall now go has seconded the nomination. with him to his chamber so that Kgosi Gaborone, do you wish to he can robe to come and conduct stand for the elections? the elections for the Deputy KGOSI GABORONE Chairperson’s position. (BATLOKWA): I wish to stand ELECTION OF DEPUTY Madam Secretary. CHAIRPERSON SECRETARY: We will take MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI another nomination. PUSO GABORONE): Good KGOSI LOTLAMORENG morning Honourable Members. II (BAROLONG): Thank We shall continue with our you. I appeal to the Honourable elections for the Deputy House that we should close Chairperson. Rule 13 from the the nomination process of the Second Schedule states that, candidates for the Chairmanship “The provisions of this schedule position. shall apply mutatis mutandis SECRETARY: Kgosi to the election of the Deputy Lotlamoreng has proposed Chairperson or to the election that we should close the of any member to preside in nomination process. Does the Ntlo ya Dikgosi in the absence Honourable House agree with of the Chairperson and Deputy this suggestion? Chairperson.” The Chairman has since been nominated and the Question put and agreed to voting procedure for the Deputy

2 Monday 17th January 2011 Election of Deputy Chairperson

Chairperson is just similar to MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi the one we have just followed Lotlamoreng has agreed to stand to vote for the Chairperson. The for the position and his name shall procedure is that the Members be written on the blackboard. shall raise their hands to indicate We shall continue taking more their desire to nominate a certain names. Member for candidature and KGOSI RAMOKWENA also to second the nominations. (MAUN REGION): Thank you Afterwards I shall then enquire Mr Chairman. I nominate Kgosi from the nominee if he/she Oreagetse Machilidza for the wishes to stand for the elections. Deputy Chairman’s position. I shall now see by way of raised hands the people who wish to MR CHAIRMAN: Thank nominate candidates for this you Kgosi Ramokwena. Kgosi position. Oreagetse Machilidza has been nominated. Does anyone wish to KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA second the nomination? REGION): I nominate Kgosi Lotlamoreng II. KGOSI MONNAATHEBE (THAMAGA REGION): MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi I second the nomination Mr Lotlamoreng II has been Chairman. nominated. Is there anyone who wishes to second the MR CHAIRMAN: This then nomination? means that we should ask the nominee if he wishes to stand for KGOSI TELEKELO the elections. (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. I second the KGOSI MACHILIDZA nomination. (BOTETI REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. Since the MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Honourable Members have Telekelo has seconded Kgosi shown their desire for me to Lotlamoreng’s nomination. We stand, then I agree to stand Mr shall now ask the nominee if he Chairman. wishes to stand for this position. MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: Machilidza has accepted the Thank you Mr Chairman. If the nomination. I will see by way of Honourable Members wish for raised hands if anyone wishes to me to stand, then I agree. nominate another name.

3 Monday 17th January 2011 Election of Deputy Chairperson

KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): with this motion? Thank you Mr Chairman. I KGOSI SEEMEKO: We agree nominate Kgosi Masunga. that the nominations should be MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi closed Mr Chairman. Masunga has been nominated, does MR CHAIRMAN: Do the anyone second this nomination? Members agree with Kgosi KGOSI GAREBAKWENA Boiditswe’s motion? (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): Question put and agreed to. Thank you Mr Chairman. I second the nomination. MR CHAIRMAN: The rules then continue to state that, MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi “when all nominations have Masunga’s nomination has been been received, the Secretary seconded. This then means that shall announce the names of all we should ask the nominated members who have been duly candidate if he wishes to stand nominated and seconded, and for the elections. have accepted candidature.” KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH SECRETARY: The Members EAST REGION): I am grateful who have nominated and have for the trust that the Honourable accepted the candidacy are: Members have in me but I do not wish to stand for the elections. 1. Kgosi Lotlamoreng II MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi 2. Kgosi Machilidza Masunga has indicated that he MR CHAIRMAN: The rules does not wish to stand for the then continue to state that, “the Deputy Chairmanship position. Secretary shall then supply a Are there any more names for the ballot paper to each Member who Deputy Chairmanship position? wishes to vote, and the Member KGOSI BOIDITSWE shall write on the ballot paper (SEROWE REGION): Thank the name of the candidate whom you Mr Chairman. I wanted to he/she wishes to elect as Deputy move that we should close the Chairperson. No Member shall nominations. write more than one name on his or her ballot paper, and no MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Member shall mark his or her Boiditswe has moved that we ballot paper in such a way as should close the nominations at to disclose whose ballot paper this stage. Do the Members agree 4 Monday 17th January 2011 Chairperson’s Remarks it is. If for any good reason any shall be counted and if at all the Member is unable to complete candidates remain at par then his or her ballot paper correctly, there is a provision for what is to the Secretary may at his or her be done in the Rules of procedure. request, assist him or her to We continue to read from the Rules vote, but the Secretary shall not and they state that, “a candidate disclose to anyone for whom who has received more votes at such member voted.” a poll than any other candidate, shall be forthwith declared to You shall be given ballot papers have been duly elected in this where you will indicate the name case as Deputy Chairperson by of your preferred candidate the presiding officer.” and you are only supposed to write one name and that is of The results of the elections that the candidate you prefer who have just been undertaken are is written on that board. I shall as follows: Kgosi Lotlamoreng then ask the Secretary to show II was voted by (17) Members, us the ballot box so that we can Kgosi Oreagetse Machilidza ascertain that it is indeed empty. (16). This then means that Kgosi The rules then continue to state Lotlamoreng II is the Deputy that, “the Secretary shall then Chairman of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. I sit at a convenient table and call believe that we have concluded in alphabetical order the names our voting session and our of all the Members present, and Order Paper indicates that the each Member who wishes to vote Chairperson’s remarks are to shall as his/her name is called, follow. come to the table, and drop his/ CHAIRPERSON’S her ballot paper into a glass REMARKS placed before the Secretary in such a manner as not to disclose MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI for whom he or she is voting.” GABORONE): I would like Your names shall be called out to start off by thanking the and you shall come and drop the Honourable Members for once ballot papers inside. again according me and my deputy the opportunity to lead this VOTING IN PROCESS House. I believe that we worked MR CHAIRMAN: All the ballot well together in the past year and papers have been placed in this you accorded us all the support box and so the ballot papers we needed to perform the duties

5 Monday 17th January 2011 Chairperson’s Remarks of this House. I promise that even with the Ministers particularly in this year I am going to continue when it comes to the requirement to perform my duties with due of their presence to answer diligence, working hand in hand questions and motions. I think through consultations with you. that with a lot of faith we can be able to overcome these obstacles I believe that through working in the year 2011. together that is how we managed to achieve the goals that we had When it comes to our Briefings set for ourselves as the House. It the intention is to review and see is evident from what I observed how we can best come up with a last year that Members are slowly suitable programme. They should grasping the Rules of Procedure rather address our needs as the and I wish that in this New Year House and ways that can assist we will be able to grow from us in our work as well as at our where we are. We will build communities. One other aspect on what we learnt last year and that we wish to look into this year continue to work on it so that we has got to do with training. The can manage this House better. All Members of this House have long that we have to plan will only be wished to be trained and I believe possible through our cooperation. that with this training that we will I am well aware that there are still be embarking on at BNPC we will some pending issues which we still be on the right path to see to it have to try so hard to complete that we equip ourselves so that we in this year. I am particularly can have a notable contribution in referring to the Rules of Procedure the development of this country. which we have been dealing With those words and on behalf with since 2007 up until today. I on the Deputy Chairman I would believe that through prayer and like to thank you for granting us your support we shall be able to the responsibility to lead you remove this obstacle that we have again in this year. From here we before us that prevents us from will be going for tea and we invite running this House in a manner our visitors, the management as that we wish to. well as the staff present to have tea with us. Let us meet briefly in I believe that even other the Committee room after having challenges that we experienced tea to talk about the program for especially towards the end of the this week. You are also requested year we shall try to solve them. to pose for a group picture in front We can only do that if we discuss

6 Monday 24th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer of the chamber as is the norm and with the Speaker of the National please let us do that before we go Assembly to Japan. They have for tea so that we can conclude the arrived well and we hope they program. With those few remarks, will have a safe stay until they today’s program ends here and we come back. I am glad that we shall be at the workshop for the meet back here again today whole week. We shall come back except for Kgosi Montshiwa here next week to continue with who experienced some problems the business of the House and the on his way here but I hope he meeting shall commence at 9:30 will be able to solve them. I a.m as stipulated in the Rules of believe that he shall be able to Procedure. Thank you. join us in due course. He is the only one amongst those who are ADJOURNMENT absent whose whereabouts I am The House accordingly adjourned aware of. at 10.34 a.m. until Monday 24th January, 2011 at 9.30 a.m. With those few words Honourable Members we shall begin with the th Monday 24 January, 2011 questions as we normally do. I THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. believe that the Ministers have (THE CHAIRMAN in the come prepared to answer your Chair) questions. P R A Y E R S QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER * * * * CATTLE BOLUS IN CHAIRPERSON’S KGALAGADI REMARKS KGOSI TOTO II DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (KGALAGADI SOUTH (KGOSI LOTLAMORENG REGION): asked the Minister of II): Good morning to you Agriculture when the problem of Honourable Members, the cattle bolus in Kgalagadi South Deputy Speaker of the National will be resolved. Assembly as well as the Honourable Ministers present. ASSISTANT MINISTER We are on the second week of our OF AGRICULTURE (HON meeting and before we progress MOLEBATSI): Thank you Mr allow me to take this opportunity Chairman and Compliments of the to inform you of the visit that new season to you. Mr Chairman, the Chairman has undertaken my Ministry has received new 7 Monday 24th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer and repaired sets of equipment ever going to reach your target from the Service Provider Honourable Minister? since December 2010. This H O N O U R A B L E equipment has been distributed MOLEBATSI: Thank you Mr to the districts including Tsabong Chairman. The reason why bolus which was issued with eight has not been inserted in some new computers and six repaired cattle is because the equipment ones to undertake bolus insertion used for that operation was old but campaign. The bolus insertion as we have committed ourselves campaign in Kgalagadi South to this operation we will reach started on the 12th January 2011. our intended target. The problems However, due to heavy rains, the that we encounter are that it is turn-up is very poor. I thank you, currently rainy season and people Mr Chairman. are also at the fields but I suppose KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you that since the ploughing season is Mr Chairman. Is Ngamiland also about to end then we will continue included? well with the exercise. All the areas have been provided with the H O N O U R A B L E equipment which we believe will MOLEBATSI: Ngamiland and be enough for all the cattle. Thank all the other areas in Kgalagadi you. South District are included. That is why we have announced in the KGOSI ESTERHUIZEN: newspapers to inform Batswana Thank you, Mr Chairman. that we have started bolus I request the Ministry of insertion throughout the country. Agriculture to pay a visit to Thank you. Southern Kgalagadi, because I think most of the residents in KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank that area only see their faces on you Mr Chairman. I understand pictures. They do not know them what the Minister of Agriculture in person, so they should go there is saying but does the Minister so that these people should see think that they will ever be them and ask them the questions able to successfully manage to which we are asking them here. insert bolus in all the cattle in Thank you, Mr Chairman. this country. I am saying this because we are continuing to KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: see problems when it comes to Thank you Mr Chairman. Has this issue. Do you think you are the Minister ensured that other

8 Monday 24th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer factors that previously inhibited Communications to explain what this exercise to go well apart from has become of BX 06 2612 being the bolus inserting equipment Kia Sorrento from Masunga have been taken care of? Kgotla which has been with Central Transport Organisation H O N O U R A B L E for two (2) years following the MOLEBATSI: Thank you Mr accident but has still not been Chairman. Everything has been delivered back to the Kgotla. taken care of Mr Chairman and even though there might not MINISTER OF TRANSPORT be ample number of vehicles AND COMMUNICATIONS there are systems in place that (HON RAMSDEN): Mr will enable all the places to be Chairman, following the accident reached. When we plan to carry that occurred to BX 062612 on out a bolus insertion campaign we the 22nd June 2008, the vehicle ensure that the staff that inserts was taken to Central Transport the bolus, the computers and the Organisation for repairs. It was bolus are there. There are vehicles released on the 6th January 2009 that will transport those people that is approximately six (6) to different areas and my request months and not two years as to farmers is for them to gather purported. However, on the 21st all the cattle that are supposed January 2009, the vehicle was to be inserted the bolus on the received for engine repairs after set dates. I want to assure Kgosi it was driven without water in the that we shall try our level best to radiator. It is awaiting spares as cover all the areas including the we speak, Mr Chairman. Thank Kgalagadi area. During this week you Sir. I am supposed to be in Grootlagte KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank to address the community there. you Mr Chairman. How come That is the effort that we are is it that up until now we have trying to do Mr Chairman in order not had any feedback from the to serve Batswana in a satisfying Ministry regarding this vehicle manner. Thank you. because it is my first time to VEHICLE FOR MASUNGA hear all this information by the KGOTLA Minister? Thank you. KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH HONOURABLE RAMSDEN: EAST REGION): asked the Thank you Mr Chairman. When Minister of Transport and a vehicle has been boarded; we

9 Monday 24th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer expect the parent ministry or the budget is made as per the request parent department responsible of the respective Ministries. for Local Authorities to inform When the vehicles arrive, they us that they have not replaced the are distributed to the respective vehicle. Alternatively they should Ministries and not to the request for the replacement so departments. It is the respective that a pool vehicle could be Ministries which then distribute provided. What happens instead vehicles as per the request of their is that when the vehicles are sectors or departments, not Central brought here for repairs, the Transport Organisation (CTO) relevant authorities do not come nor the Ministry of Transport and back to us to say we do not Communications. Thank you, Sir. have a vehicle, particularly the KGOSI SEBOKO: Thank you Ministry of Local Government. Mr Chairman. Does the Minister What should happen is that after suggest that vehicles should be repairing the vehicle the Ministry routed through the Ministries to should send it back to where it the CTO instead of being sent to came from. I thank you sir. CTO directly from the Kgotla so KGOSI MACHILIDZA: that the Ministry can be able to Thank you Mr Chairman. Is follow up on the vehicle? Thank the Minister’s department not you. aware of the number of vehicles HONOURABLE RAMSDEN: allocated to each station? I Thank you Mr Chairman. A am asking this because of the vehicle can be sent to CTO Minister’s response where he directly from the Kgotla and says that they are not made after that a report has to be made aware of the situations like the to the Tribal Administration one Kgosi Masunga has brought Headquarters to inform them of forth. Does he not consider it that vehicle. They can then be better to immediately replace able to take over and see how vehicles when the one that is they can be able to assist you being used is taken for repairs? going forward. Thank you. HONOURABLE RAMSDEN: KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Thank you Mr Chairman. What Thank you Mr Chairman. I heard happens is that the Ministries are the Minister mentioning that the the ones who request for vehicles vehicle was damaged because from the Central Transport it was driven without water in Organisation (CTO) and the

10 Monday 24th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer the radiator and I want to know questions because we have spent who is held liable under the the entire 15 minutes on two circumstances. questions only. Thank you. MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI WATER RETICULATION IN LOTLAMORENG II): Liable GHANZI TOWNSHIP for what Kgosi? KGOSI MOSEKI (GHANZI KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: EAST REGION): asked the Who is responsible for repairing Minister of Minerals, Energy that vehicle since it was driven and Water Resources if he without water in the radiator? will consider improving water reticulation in Ghanzi Township HONOURABLE RAMSDEN: especially at Meriting. Thank you. Mr Chairman we have not actually surcharged the MINISTER OF MINERALS, driver. The Government took the ENERGY AND WATER responsibility of repairing the RESOURCES (HON vehicle. Thank you. KEDIKILWE): Ghanzi is experiencing rapid expansion and KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank you development like most centres Mr Chairman. It is not true that in Botswana. The current water the vehicle has been away for 6 supply distribution network can no months. I am saying this because longer support the ever growing I am the one who uses it and I can water demands, resulting in ascertain that it has been away applications for water connections for two years and I even wrote being put on hold; until such time to the Ministry of Transport and that the network is expanded. Communications to enquire about the whereabouts of that vehicle In February 2008, the Department and that if it is possible it should of Water Affairs awarded be boarded. Lastly I would like to Bothakga Burrow Botswana point out that the Ministry has got the contract, to undertake the service standards which should be Design Study and Construction adhered to so that they can serve Supervision of Ghanzi and their customers appropriately. Tsabong Major Villages Water Thank you. Supply Distribution Network Rehabilitation Project. This MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you project involves upgrading the Kgosi. Honourable Members existing pipelines to accommodate please let us be wary of time the future demands, and expand as we ask the supplementary 11 Monday 24th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer the network to cover new MR CHAIRMAN: Are you places where plots have been talking about confiscation of allocated and those that will be plots by the Land Board? allocated according to the Ghanzi KGOSI MOSEKI: Yes Mr Development Plan. Chairman. The detailed Design was H O N O U R A B L E submitted in December 2010. KEDIKILWE: Thank you Mr The plan was to proceed with the Chairman. Different departments construction of the rehabilitation are involved in the issue and as and expansion works but due to such I believe that the Land boards budgetary constraints, this phase would be better placed to make has been deferred until such time that decision once they have been that funds are available. Thank made aware of all the facts. you. KGOSI MOSEKI: I did not MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you understand the Minister very Honourable Minister. I had well. May he please repeat what expected you to apologise for he said? your late arrival. H O N O U R A B L E H O N O U R A B L E KEDIKILWE: Thank you Mr KEDIKILWE: I had planned Chairman. I was just clarifying to do that but I felt that I would that my Ministry’s responsibility is delay. Pardon me for being to provide water resources and the late Mr Chairman; I arrived at Ministry of Lands and Housing is midnight from Mmadinare. responsible for provision of land. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you If people were unable to develop Honourable Minister. their plots because of lack of water then they can take up the issue KGOSI MOSEKI: Thank you with the Land Boards. What my Mr Chairman. I wanted to know Ministry can answer for is why if the policy of confiscating plots the new plots were not provided that have remained for a long with water. time without being developed is going to apply to those people in KGOSI MOSEKI: Thank you Ghanzi as well. I am asking this Mr Chairman. I am still confused because it is not their fault that because I heard the Minister the plots have not been developed talking about the Land Board but it is because there is lack of but here we are talking about resources in that area. plots that were allocated through 12 Monday 24th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer the Self Help-Housing Agency KGOSI MOSEKI: You have (SHHA) which clearly states clarified it to a certain extent, that plots should be developed but I still have qualms about this within 5 years and failure to do because the services are from so will result in the plot being two Ministries and as such it is a confiscated. On the other hand bit confusing. Thank you. the department responsible for MR CHAIRMAN: The problem providing water has not done is that you arrived when the that and that is why I am asking Minister had already given his the Minister the question that answer but anyway you can who is held accountable for these always talk to him during our tea mistakes? Thank you. break. Thank you. MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi LAND INCREASE IN Moseki, I do not mean to answer HEREFORD for the Minister but I believe that what the Honourable Minister is KGOSI TOTO II explaining is that if it has happened (KGALAGADI SOUTH that people were not able to REGION): asked the Minister develop their plots because there of Lands and Housing whether is no water resources then they his Ministry will consider can approach the Land Boards increasing land at Hereford to and give them those reasons and enable farmers and the youth to perhaps they can reach a certain venture into arable and livestock compromise. What the Minister farming. was simply explaining is that MINISTER OF LANDS the responsibility of confiscating AND HOUSING (HON plots is not of his Ministry but MOLEFHI): Thank you. Let that of the Ministry of Lands and me start off by apologising for Housing whose Minister is not my late coming and also to present. Perhaps there should be clarify that we had assumed that a question which is specifically this question was answered last addressed to the Minister of year but apparently I had only Lands and Housing enquiring given Kgosi Toto the written about those plots which have not answer since the meeting ended been developed due to lack of before we got to those questions. water resources which stand to be Mr Chairman, in response to confiscated. Do you understand a similar question by Kgosi Kgosi? Toto II on the 20th May, 2007, I

13 Monday 24th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer indicated that, my Ministry was i) Why Botswana Power waiting for a recommendation Corporation electrical lines from Kgalagadi District on the in Masunga cannot be used need for a farm that was offered to serve as street lights; and to Government for purchase. ii) When does Botswana Subsequently Kgalagadi Power Corporation intend District expressed interest on to decentralize the supply the farm and a request was made of electricity to local to my Ministry to negotiate authorities as it is done in with the owner. Mr Chairman, other countries? my Ministry did negotiate with the owner of the farm, MINISTER OF MINERALS, unfortunately, the negotiations ENERGY AND WATER broke down because of the farm RESOURCES (HON owners’ unrealistic demands KEDIKILWE): Thank you Mr which included a high purchase Chairman. As I explained earlier price, which money he did not on, I arrived in Gaborone late want taxed. On top of this, he last night and so I was unable to wanted to be allocated a ranch prepare the appropriate response on customary land on freehold to that question. I request for terms. We had to withdraw you to give me a chance to go from the negotiations because and prepare the response for you. the farmer was not willing to Thank you. reconsider his demands. KGOSI MASUNGA: I accept My Ministry is therefore unable Mr Chairman. to increase the land areas for MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, the Hereford Community at the Kgosi. moment. I thank you, Sir. CONSTRUCTION OF KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you PROPOSED NEW TSABONG Mr Chairman. AIRPORT BOTSWANA POWER KGOSI TOTO II CORPORATION’S (KGALAGADI SOUTH SERVICES REGION): asked the Minister of KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH Transport and Communications EAST REGION): asked the when construction of the Minister of Minerals, Energy and proposed new Tsabong Airport at Water Resources to explain:- Logaganeng will commence.

14 Monday 24th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

MINISTER OF TRANSPORT commence when funds become AND COMMUNICATIONS available in the new financial year (HON RAMSDEN): Mr (2011/2012). Meanwhile farmers Chairman, due to financial use an existing cattle crush in constraints, the construction of Maubelo Village which is used by Tsabong airfield and other Civil Maubelo farming community. Aviation Airports and Airfields Mr Chairman, my Ministry have been deferred during has an arrangement where NDP 10. However, should the new crushes are constructed economic situation improve based on requests by farmers during the current plan period, through their Extension Officer. consideration may be made to Before accepting the request, include the project. the Extension Officer would Thank you Mr Chairman. normally consider among others, distance from the existing crush, KGOSI TOTO II number of cattle and any feature (KGALAGADI SOUTH that may interfere with movement REGION): Thank you Mr of cattle to the existing crush. In Chairman. the case of Maubelo Syndicate, CATTLE CRUSH AT the request was approved hence MAUBELO the decision to build the crush. I KGOSI TOTO II thank you Mr Chairman. (KGALAGADI SOUTH KGOSI TOTO II REGION): asked the Minister of (KGALAGADI SOUTH Agriculture whether his Ministry REGION): Thank you Mr will consider constructing a cattle Chairman. crush (mogotlha) at Maubelo WATER ASSISTANCE FOR village. KGALAGADI SOUTH ASSISTANT MINISTER RESIDENTS OF AGRICULTURE (HON KGOSI TOTO II MOLEBATSI): Mr Chairman, (KGALAGADI SOUTH my Ministry is planning to build REGION): asked the Minister a crush for Maubelo syndicate, of Minerals, Energy and Water located about five (5) kilometres Resources how far the plan to from the existing crush in draw water from the Orange Maubelo Village. Construction River in South Africa to assist the of the crush together with other residents of Kgalagadi South is. newly approved crushes will 15 Monday 24th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

MINISTER OF MINERALS, concerned parties is scheduled ENERGY AND WATER for end of this month in South RESOURCES (HON Africa. I do hope that the said KEDIKILWE): Mr Chairman, meeting will proffer insights as following the signing of the to the way forward. Cross Border Water Supply Meanwhile, the Joint Permanent Agreement between the Republic Technical Committee (JPTC) of South Africa and the Republic between Botswana and South of Botswana on the 17th July Africa undertook a study to 2008, a Joint Technical Team was investigate the possibility of tasked to carry out the feasibility drawing water from the Vaal investigations of drawing water River through the Vaal-Gamara from the Orange River to supply Water Scheme (a transmission Kgalagadi South. pipeline from the Vaal River to the The initial investigation was Northern Cape, which includes to establish whether it would areas such as Uppington). be possible to include the During the last JPTC meeting demands from Botswana in October 2010, South Africa under the Lesotho Highlands reported that it was not feasible Project Phase 2, which proved to connect Botswana to the Vaal- not feasible. Following the Gamara Scheme because there meeting of the senior officials is no surplus water. However, of South Africa, Botswana the study has shown that, it is and Lesotho, a tripartite task feasible to draw an amount of team was established to draft a 7 litres/sec of water from the Memorandum of Understanding Kalahari East Water Association (MoU) between South Africa, (KEWA) Scheme allocation. Lesotho and Botswana) to KEWA supplies water to farms investigate the feasibility of along the border from McCarthy incorporating Botswana under Rust to Bokspits on the South Lesotho Highlands Project African side. Phase 3. The 7 litre/sec (which translates This discussion is on-going to 378 cubic meters per day between South Africa, Lesotho for 15 hours pumping) is only and Botswana. It is however, enough to supply the Middlepits challenging at this stage to put a Cluster villages of Middlepits, time frame as to when the process Kolonkwaneng, Bogogobo, Khuis will be concluded. A meeting of

16 Monday 24th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer and Gakhibana. The demand for this practice was prohibited this cluster is 350 cubic meters in 2009; per day; hence the 378 cubic ii) Has the Ministry withdrawn meters would be adequate. this prohibition, if he has, It is important to note that, 7 does he intend to address litres/sec volume of water is the situation given that the available on condition that the country is facing a problem Mier area in South Africa is not of deforestation. connected to the KEWA scheme. MINISTER OF An application has been sent by ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE Kgalagadi District Council to AND TOURISM (HON Sedibeng Water (Water Authority MOKAILA): Mr Chairman, I from the Northern Cape am not aware that people have responsible for water supply) to started cutting down trees for effect the connection to draw the commercial purposes. The 7 litres/sec for the Middlepits regulation on the cutting of Cluster. trees has not been withdrawn My Ministry will continue to and it is still enforced through engage with the South African Statutory Instrument No. 89 of Government on providing long- 2006 – Agricultural Resources term solution for the cross-border Conservation (Utilisation of Veldt water supply. Products) Regulations (Published on 1st December, 2006). I thank I thank you. you Mr Chairman. KGOSI TOTO II KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank (KGALAGADI SOUTH you Mr Chairman and I would REGION): Thank you Mr like to respond to the Minister’s Chairman. statement that he is not aware DEFORESTATION FOR that people have started cutting COMMERCIAL PURPOSES down trees for commercial purposes. Has the Minister never KGOSI BOIDITSWE seen the bundles of firewood that (SEROWE REGION): asked are always sold along the road as the Minister of Environment, he is travelling? If he has seen Wildlife and Tourism: them, could he then clarify if that i) if he is aware that people firewood is for business or for have started cutting trees for personal use? commercial purposes when 17 Monday 24th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

HONOURABLE MOKAILA: issue for now so that the Minister Thank you Mr Chairman. I can go and investigate if at all assume that the ones who sell those people who cut down trees those bundles of firewood have all have permits. Thank you. got permits to do so. HONOURABLE MOKAILA: KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Mr Chairman I need to request Thank you. How does the from Kgosi that wherever he Minister ensure that indeed those sees that happening he should people have got permits? Is make us aware of it. The question there any program that has been asked whether I am aware of designed to monitor this cutting such occurrences and what I down of trees and does it include explained is that wherever we the community? see that happening we take appropriate action through District HONOURABLE MOKAILA: Conservation Committees. If Thank you Mr Chairman and Kgosi is aware of certain areas thank you Kgosi Garebakwena. where people are cutting down We have the District Conservation trees for commercial purposes Committees, whose mandate is to without any action being taken ensure that those people who cut against them then my request is down the trees do indeed have that Kgosi should let me know permits and if they do not have of where that is happening so permits the Committee informs that we can correct the situation. the Forestry and Range Resources Thank you. so that they can go and confiscate the wood. Thank you. REHABILITATION OF THE KANYE DAM KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank you Mr Chairman. I find this KGOSI RAMOKONE: asked issue very difficult because the the Minister of Minerals, Energy Minister has indicated that he and Water Resources if he is not aware that people do cut will consider rehabilitating the down trees and so if he is not Kanye Dam, otherwise known as aware then I request him to go Seepapitso III dam and investigate and find out if MINISTER OF MINERALS, there are no such acts taking ENERGY AND WATER place. The other issue is that he RESOURCES (HON says the Law stating that trees KEDIKILWE): I did not manage should not be cut has not been to explain to Kgosi Ramokone reinstated and so I will leave this 18 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of a Tarred Road - Motion prior to this meeting but I am not MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. satisfied with the response that This then means we shall defer has been prepared. I would like the question to the next day. to request for a chance to go back CONSTRUCTION OF A and prepare the answer. TARRED ROAD MR CHAIRMAN: People who Motion are responsible for preparing these responses are not doing KGOSI BOIDITSWE their job. It is only the Ministry (SEROWE REGION): Thank of Honourable Mokaila who you Mr Chairman. I stand here have come prepared. to introduce a motion that talks about tarring the road from H O N O U R A B L E Dikabeya to Palapye. That is the KEDIKILWE: Mr Chairman old road that was once used to I do understand your point but go to Palapye. There is a dam in as I have already pointed out, I that area called Bonwakatlhako arrived rather late last night. We and there are also commercial have long been performing this farms and streams in that area. duty and we do not just take any The village is even congested prepared response but we have to towards that old road and that pay attention to the grammar used means it is very difficult for those and the factuality of the given people who travel to Palapye. response. We cannot just read the The graveyards are situated at responses we are given without the side of the old road. The new checking first. Thank you. plots are allocated towards that MR CHAIRMAN: I do road as well. understand you Honourable One other point is that the road Minister, however this question that comes from the junction is from the last meeting and I going into the village is believe the answer should already experiencing heavy congestion be there. I am not refusing your of traffic and if there was a request but I am simply saying road from the bridge to Palapye that you should pay attention to then there would be no need for such circumstances. people travelling to Palapye to KGOSI RAMOKONE: Thank go all the way to the junction you Mr Chairman. I take it and that way the traffic could be that the Minister will bring the reduced. There is a Government answer. policy that talks about creation of

19 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of a Tarred Road - Motion access roads into the village from the Serowe/Palapye junction. Mr the main road. It was supposed to Chairman the road that is being be around 15 km from the main mentioned is about 9 to10 km road and that is why I believe from the bridges and the village that the road qualifies to be built of Palapye is expanding towards because the village is growing that direction. considerably. The road does exist The new plots are now near an and it only needs to be tarred as it area called Mmaphula where can help the people from Palapye there is a gravesite and there is and the commercial farmers in a small stream that needs to have that area a lot. I am then appealing a culvert built over it. People to the House to support me on using that road from Francistown this motion because this road is make a detour there and the road necessary and very important now has potholes. It needs to be to this area. The farmers in that attended to because it is badly area plant tomatoes and as we all damaged. know those are very fragile and if they are transported on a tarred I support Kgosi Boiditswe’s road then it would be much motion because there is a better. Honourable Members Government’s policy that talks I have repeatedly talked about about creation of access roads the importance of this road and that are 10km from the main if I can elaborate further on this road into the village. It mentions I would take the whole day. In that these roads can be tarred short that is all I wanted to say and I believe that this is where Mr Chairman. Thank you. the Policy can work. Even the distance from the Bonwakatlhako KGOSI SEELETSO Dam is about 6 km from where (TONOTA REGION): Mr Kgosi Boiditswe is talking about. Chairman. I stand to support This means that even the farmers Kgosi Boiditswe’s motion. I who grow vegetables by the know the road that he is talking Bonwakatlhako dam would have about and it is shorter when easy access to Palapye village you enter Palapye coming from where they sell their produce and Francistown using it than when even the vegetables would not you go up to the Serowe/Palapye be affected. With those words junction. I agree with him that I support Kgosi Boiditswe’s the road should be tarred in order motion. Thank you. to avoid entering Palapye using

20 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of a Tarred Road - Motion KGOSI MALEMA pointed out that if they were (BOBIRWA REGION): Thank using the old road then the you Mr Chairman. I support route to Palapye would be much Kgosi Boiditswe’s motion. I shorter. I request the Minister to know the road that he is talking pay particular attention to this about because it is an old road point when giving his response and during the time when it was because if the road can be tarred abandoned for the new road I then it means that those farmers asked myself why that road was can have better profits because not tarred because the new road they will not have to spend much is far from the village. They on fuel as they will no longer should rather have allowed the be travelling long distances. I road to run through the village believe that the Minister will look in order to reach Palapye into this issue mainly because the because one actually drives a Government encourages farming long distance. I validate what he and from what the mover of the is saying because it is the truth motion has indicated, the farmers and it has long been obvious that are experiencing low profits there was no proper planning because of that long route and when it comes to that road. that can breed hopelessness. I Had there been proper planning believe that if the road is tarred that road would not have been then farmers will also be able abandoned thus resulting in to divert their money to other people having to take a long uses like hiring more staff and route in order to get to Palapye. therefore creating employment I fully support this motion Mr opportunities. Chairman. Thank you. One other point that I want to KGOSI TELEKELO say is that as the farmers do not (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank make much profits because of you Mr Chairman. Even though I this, it discourages other aspiring am not familiar with the area that farmers because they will deem is being mentioned I have a slight it as not worthwhile to embark on idea of what is being talked about farming and then to be forced to because of what the two Dikgosi travel long distances to transport have said. They have indicated their goods hence making a loss that commercial farmers in that in the process. That is all I wanted area travel long distances when to say in support of this motion. using the current road and also Thank you.

21 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of a Tarred Road - Motion MINISTER OF TRANSPORT has a programme that they call AND COMMUNICATIONS the Agriculture Infrastructure (HON RAMSDEN): Thank you Development through which they Mr Chairman. Let me start off plan to construct gravel roads by explaining that there are two and to also connect electricity departments that are responsible at the lands. As the Ministry of for road constructions and Transport and Communications those are the Ministry of Local we do not intend to scrape Government and the Ministry of off the tar from the damaged Transport and Communications. roads anymore and as some In this situation that Dikgosi are of you might have observed talking about, the Central District along the Mahalapye road up Council should have ensured that to Francistown we have not they repair that road and keep it in scraped off the tar from the road a good condition just like we did that is being repaired. What we with the old road to Francistown do is that we are going to patch when the A1 road was constructed. wherever the road is damaged Mr Chairman we have what we and then tar the road afterwards refer to as the Access Road Policy as we are currently doing with the as Dikgosi have mentioned. This Lobatse road. We have spread the access road can be 10 km from project in three phases looking the main road. We are currently at the state of the roads and the reviewing the Policy so that we extent of the damage as well as can see how it can be improved building of new access roads and to increase the set distances where necessary. We are going to especially when the road leads to begin the re-construction of the a school or a clinic. Gaborone/Boatle road as soon as the rainy season passes and Mr Chairman I cannot say for if possible we will go as far as certain if we are not going to tar Lobatse because the intention is that road or not or even to give a to create a dual road from here time frame but we can certainly to Lobatse. We are going to be look into it and make plans so extending the road that we have that from there we can then find and tarring it again with the out if funds permit for the project money accrued from the road to be undertaken or not. levy. The funds which we are It is the intention of the going to need for creating the Government to repair the roads second part of the road will have and the Ministry of Agriculture to be approved in Parliament.

22 Monday 24th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion The maintenance which is needed KGOSI SEEMEKO on other existing roads will be (SPECIALLY ELECTED): done gradually whenever funds Thank you Mr Chairman. In permit and this is the approach terms of Section 6 of the House’s we are using on the Molepolole/ (Powers and Privileges) Act, Letlhakeng road in order to avoid Subsection C, I hereby propose situations where roads become that Kgosi Kgari Sechele III completely dilapidated. I am should preside over the meeting aware of the road that is being in the absence of the Deputy mentioned and we have seen it to Chairman. Thank you. try and establish what needs to be MR CHAIRMAN: The request done on it but I cannot ascertain that has been brought about by when we are going to repair it. Kgosi Seemeko was simply When we have been made aware brought about by the fact that the of how much we are going to need following motions were brought in order to do it then that is when by the Chairman and so he was we can be able to attend to it. With requesting this House to agree those few words, I thank you Mr with his proposal that Kgosi Chairman. Kgari III should preside. PROCEEDINGS KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I second SUSPENDED FOR TEA the motion Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Honourable Members. Allow Seemeko’s proposal has been me to welcome you back from seconded by Kgosi Boiditswe. our short recess and before we adjourned for tea we were Question put and agreed to. on Kgosi Boiditswe’s motion APPOINTMENT and the Honourable Members OF MINISTER FOR had debated. The Honourable PRESIDENTIAL Minister had given his response AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC as well and so this is the time to ADMINISTRATION AS take a vote on this matter to see if THE LEADER OF NTLO YA Members agree to it or not. DIKGOSI Motion put and agreed to. Motion MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable KGOSI LOTLAMORENG Members there is one Member who II: Thank you Mr Chairman. I wishes to propose something. have noticed that the Minister for 23 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of Speed Humps along the A1 Road - Motion Presidential Affairs and Public have been hit by vehicles in that Administration is not present and area. The road is narrow in that before I defer this motion I would area and as the Minister pointed like to express my concern at the out earlier on when it comes to non commitment that is shown the maintenance of roads, they by the Minister when it comes should ensure that on that road to this House. I want to believe they create a dual road as well that there is a certain degree of so that the road can be open. As non commitment on the part of you may have noticed, the A1 this Ministry because this motion road experiences a lot of traffic has been long brought here. I and there is reckless driving on am wondering why they do not that road as people do not take give us any explanation of why into consideration that they are they do not want to answer this passing through villages. They motion, if at all that is the case drive at high speed and we because as I have pointed out, I cannot expect the Police Officers have long brought this motion to always be there to catch people here. I just wanted to express who speed. my concern about this Ministry’s Mr Chairman what I am basically attitude towards this House and saying is that there should be there is nothing else I can do, speed humps constructed on therefore I move that the motion that road because as I have should be deferred. already mentioned the A1 road Motion – deferred. experiences a lot of traffic. It is one of the main roads and as such CONSTRUCTION OF it is to be expected that it can SPEED HUMPS ALONG experience such traffic. I implore THE A1 ROAD this House to support me on this Motion motion and go against people’s notions that speed humps destroy KGOSI BOIDITSWE their vehicles because it appears (SEROWE REGION): Thank like these people care more about you Mr Chairman. I stand here their expensive cars than people. to move that speed humps should Ignore those notions and agree be constructed along the road with me that speed humps will passing through Moreomabele coerce those speeding drivers to and Topisi villages. The reason reduce their speed when they get I am bringing this motion is to them because if they do not because a lot of pedestrians

24 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of Speed Humps along the A1 Road - Motion then they will destroy their cars. manner. If at all there are people The speed limit in villages is who are allergic to petrol then it 60km/h and that is the speed that should be clearly stipulated in should be adhered to and some their driver’s licences that they people do not pay attention to the should only drive diesel operated fact that they are driving through vehicles. These people are the a village, they only feel that their ones who make life difficult for time is being wasted. There are other road users and they are the many accidents that always occur reason I am requesting this House in that place resulting in deaths to support me on this motion. because the pedestrian might Some of the motions and questions not have noticed the oncoming that we bring here would not be car because of many reasons. reaching this House if at all we In some cases it is the elderly got answers from the Government people who have a challenge of employees whenever we raise poor eyesight. such concerns. Since we continue Mr Chairman this road is inclined to see the situation getting worse in some areas especially when that is why we end up bringing you reach the Topisi village. such issues to the House. The There is a red sign that has been reasons that we are given are placed there and I suppose it that people complain that speed communicates something about humps destroy their vehicles and that slope, it is just that I am not that is why I saw it fit to bring aware of what it refers to and to the motion here so that perhaps the pedestrians that sign does not we can get a better answer. I will mean anything. I believe that if stop here to give those who wish the engineers can be consulted to comment a chance to debate. about the quality of this road Thank you Mr Chairman. they would definitely point out KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH that something was not right EAST REGION): Thank you Mr somewhere on that road. Mr Chairman. I support this motion Chairman I have pointed out because I know what the mover before that people should be is talking about since I have tested to determine if at all they driven along that road numerous are allergic to petrol because times. Mr Chairman there is a lot as soon as they start driving of speeding on the A1 road and they become different people. the area that Kgosi Boiditswe is They drive in such an appalling talking about is usually known

25 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of Speed Humps along the A1 Road - Motion for having Police Officers there drivers have a tendency of driving with speed traps and that is the at such a high speed in areas like only reason why drivers would this. I am one of the people who reduce speed. The drivers do frequently uses that road and in all not pay attention to road signs honesty I do at times find myself and markings especially those driving at a speed of around 140 that show that the speed must be km/h in that area only to remember reduced. I do concur that the time afterwards that I actually was not has come for speed humps to be supposed to be driving at that constructed along the A1 road. speed. Speed is the weakness of Since drivers are not fond of many drivers and we only abide these common ones alternatively once the Police Officers intervene. they could be made of metal Kgosi Boiditswe’s motion is very plates like the ones I have once important because it talks about seen somewhere in Gaborone. I protecting people’s lives. The fact believe those ones could reduce is that hitting a pedestrian resulting frictions between the drivers in death is something that could and the Ministry because the never be reversed and even if you drivers feel that their vehicles can get caught that person’s life are being destroyed. As I have would be gone. Even if the person already pointed out there is a does not die, the accident can lot of high speeding around the leave their health compromised Moreomabele/Topisi area and I as well as completely changing have at times found myself having that victim’s life. I do support this made the mistake of driving at motion because it is talking about such a high speed in that area something that can affect different and I know that is not the right forms of life. Thank you. thing to do but at times we need KGOSI MOETI II to face reality. The important (SPECIALLY ELECTED): thing though is that even though Thank you Mr Chairman. I stand mistakes do happen, they should to support Kgosi Boiditswe’s be rectified so that people’s lives motion. I would like to add one can be preserved. more village to the two that Kgosi KGOSI RAMOKWENA has mentioned and that is the (MAUN REGION): Thank you Radisele village, perhaps speed Mr Chairman. The mover of the humps should also be installed motion has explained his reasons in that area as well. One of the in details and the truth is that reasons for my support of the

26 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of Speed Humps along the A1 Road - Motion motion is that the A1 road is used KGOSI SEEMEKO by many vehicles, especially (SPECIALLY ELECTED): around the holidays. As Kgosi Thank you Mr Chairman. I Masunga has revealed usually also stand to support Kgosi drivers only comply with the Boiditswe’s motion. regulations when they are aware We have mentioned that most of of the presence of the Police the drivers only abide by the road Officers. We do not pay attention regulations because they are afraid to the road signs and do what is of getting caught by the Police supposed to be done. and perhaps the Minister might If you pay particular attention respond by saying that it should you will realise that there are be everybody’s responsibility bars alongside the road in those to drive safely. That is the truth villages and as such patrons from but most of us fail to take such those bars frequently cross the responsibility and I believe that road and that is one of the reasons the time has come to give this why speed humps are needed in issue attention and do everything that area. This would serve to in our power to compel people protect the lives of those people to see the importance of driving especially since some would be responsibly. To cite an example, under the influence of alcohol. when I was passing through the When it comes to the issue of the area that Kgosi is talking about presence of the Police Officers, driving to Gaborone I nearly you will realise that there are no experienced an accident. I had Police stations in those areas and decided to reduce speed because so they cannot be present all the I was approaching the village as time. One seldom finds a road it was possible that children or block in that area. Mr Chairman livestock could suddenly cross it is comprehensible that speed the road and I noticed that a humps should be constructed in vehicle that was behind me was those areas because it will not coming at such a high speed. I only be for the protection of the was scared that the person was pedestrians’ lives but also the not going to be able to stop well drivers since an accident can in time and that goes to show you claim anybody’s life. This is an that it is not many people who are important motion Mr Chairman capable of making appropriate and it should be accorded the decision to protect the lives of attention it deserves. Thank you. other people.

27 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of Speed Humps along the A1 Road - Motion Mr Chairman I believe that the that we have always complained time has come to do something about and to me this is a very about this issue as it is about important motion. There is no ensuring the safety of our one who can say that it is not children. We are aware that the appropriate time to bring the complaints do come up that motion because we are talking the cars are being destroyed by about our children and also how these humps but they should reckless people are on the road. realise that as much as they care This is the appropriate time and about their cars they should also Dikgosi have debated and shown care about other people’s lives. that they support it and I echo Mr Chairman without saying those sentiments. anything much the fact is that Last week when we were in the this is a straight issue and the Committee Room the Secretary Minister should take this into advised us on the procedure consideration and construct when it comes to motions. This those humps. We know that the was done in order to avoid operation will involve large sums situations whereby I will bring of money but if we can always another motion which is exactly surrender to lack of money then like this one but talking about a we are not going to go anywhere different area in Botswana. My and we might even end up not feeling is that when a motion making any requests at all for like this one is brought here we fear of being told that there is no should talk about all the places money. We do understand that around the country which have we have a serious challenge of such hazardous places. This resources but at least some of the will help because when the projects should be given priority. Government brings the response Thank you, Mr Chairman. it will be one that affects all those KGOSI MACHILIDZA places mentioned. What Kgosi (BOTETI REGION): Thank Boiditswe has brought is not you Mr Chairman and let me wrong but I was suggesting that give my little contribution with we could amend the motion so regards to this motion. We are that it can read like that. I request well aware that the economic that when the Minister gives situation is not favourable at the his response he should consider moment and we understand that. that it is not only in Topisi and That does not stop the problems Moreomabele where there is this

28 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of Speed Humps along the A1 Road - Motion problem; this is a countrywide KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA problem especially when we also REGION): Thank you Mr consider over speeding vehicles. Chairman. I stand to support this motion. Someone might Mr Chairman one other issue is be surprised that we are saying that some roads have a very low that speed humps should be speed limit such that even when constructed along the highway the village is still far there will but what the mover is looking be a sign indicating that people at is the fact that drivers do not should drive at 40km/h. You will abide by the road regulations and drive so slowly that you will even continue to speed even when they wonder if you will ever reach are going through a village. That your destination and this would should then justify our request even distract the emergency Mr Chairman. vehicles from passing through. My suggestion is that you should People have noticed that the look into this Minister because the police officers who used to speed limit in some areas is just too be situated along the Topisi low such that some people might and Moreomabele road are no even end up causing accidents as longer there. Police officers from a result of becoming impatient. Palapye used to be placed at In my area at Mmadikola one Topisi and drivers used to know drives for almost 4km/5km at the that the Police were always there speed of 60km/h. We even began to catch those who were over to suspect that the Government speeding. They are no longer does this on purpose so that one there. They only come there can drive for long distances at a during Christmas and Good slow speed and end up getting Friday holidays together with impatient resulting in speeding the officers from Road Safety so that they can get caught and department. At Moreomabele be charged. I want to add that there used to be Police Officers perhaps in some areas the speed from Serule and they are also no limit can be increased a bit and in longer there. I do not know why areas where people cross then that they have moved out from there is when we can be asked to drive because they were appropriately at such a slow speed, the signs placed. Currently they are where should not be placed when one buses and cars park, where they is still very far from the village. are really not needed. They can Thank you. also be found in an area called

29 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of Speed Humps along the A1 Road - Motion Majwe a few kilometres from I would not have supported this Moreomabele and I am always motion but I changed my mind wondering what they are doing because we are talking about where there is no village. That people’s lives here. is why we are now compelled to When you abide by the road ask for the construction of speed regulations and then someone humps even where they should comes behind you and overtakes not be. whilst a pedestrian is crossing We are now running out of the road and ends up claiming solutions to this problem because that person’s life that is really as you can hear this really stems painful. That is why people from the deaths that occur in end up requesting for the speed those areas. There was once a humps. We wanted to inform the tragic accident in Moreomabele Minister so that when he gives where a Council Chairman and his response he should be well one child from Molepolole died aware of why we are asking for when the vehicle they were the speed humps. We are simply travelling in collided with a prompted by the tragedy that is donkey cart. The passengers in happening on these roads, drivers the donkey cart also died and this refuse to cooperate on the road. can leave one wondering how this Thank you. can happen and the only logical KGOSI TELEKELO explanation is because drivers do (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank not abide by the road signs. When you Mr Chairman. Kgosi Seeletso we first started driving we were has already touched on what I advised that when one gets on wanted to say and so I will not the road it starts to communicate be long however let me say that with him/her but nowadays we this is a very important motion see the contrary. When the road because if there is something that sign clearly states that there is should be protected, it should be no overtaking someone will the people’s lives. do exactly the opposite of that and overtake you. There is no I hope that when you give your respect for the road regulations response to this motion you will Mr Chairman and that is why say something positive. Even we are prompted to ask for the though we know that we are speed humps in a road that was going through difficult times of not meant to have speed humps; the economic recession, if you

30 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of Speed Humps along the A1 Road - Motion can give us your word that as that we give is accepted. We soon as you find some money know that there are no sufficient you will implement this, we will resources at this time but if you be glad. I am saying this because can at least promise to look into it we are all concerned about when the funds become available drivers not abiding by the road then that would make me happy regulations. I believe that you and that would prove to me that are also concerned about this and indeed this is an advisory House. that assures me that you will have Thank you. no problems agreeing with this KGOSI GAREBAKWENA motion. As other Dikgosi have (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): already indicated, some drivers Thank you Mr Chairman. We are are going to say that the speed grateful for Kgosi Boiditswe’s humps damage their vehicles motion and like Kgosi Machilidza but if one drives diligently then was saying it is important to I do not see how the car can be phrase this motion in such a way damaged. The problem only that all the other areas would comes up when someone goes be covered. The mover of the over the humps at a high speed. motion could have at least tried Signs will be placed that will to give those who are not familiar show the driver that he/she is with the A1 road a picture of the approaching the speed humps. situation on that road. He could Mr Chairman I would like to have done that by giving the point out that the whole time I statistics of the accidents that have been in this House I have occurred on that road especially never seen any motion being of those vehicles which were hit accepted by the Ministers. When from behind so that we can have I first came to this House I was a clear picture that other drivers told that we are here to advise were slowing down to obey the the Government and when I saw road regulations whilst others the ideas that Dikgosi bring to were not hence the accidents. this House being rejected I then Alternatively he could provide wondered what the purpose of the statistics of pedestrians who this House really is . were hit by vehicles in that area and also tell what other Mr Chairman I ask the Honourable countries that have highways Minister to show some of us who like the ones we have did when are still relatively new to this it comes to reducing the prospect House that some of the advice

31 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of Speed Humps along the A1 Road - Motion of accidents occurring. I assume should reduce their speed. Since that the Police have got these drivers are not prepared to abide statistics even though I am not by the regulations then we have sure if they have the statistics no choice but to ask for the speed of the accidents that occurred humps to be constructed and they in that area but I am aware that will serve to restrain those drivers they always give the numbers from speeding in those areas. of accidents that have occurred There are plenty of examples of on many roads. With those few accidents that occurred in those reasons I would like to point that areas just as Kgosi Seeletso I neither support nor reject the mentioned one that involved the motion. I will take that position. Council Chairman whose car Thank you. collided with a donkey cart. I am not sure what purpose the statistics KGOSI KAHIKO III will serve because accidents do (GHANZI WEST REGION): occur frequently in that area. As Thank you Mr Chairman. I leaders we wish to see the lives believe that Dikgosi have debated of people protected and in my extensively on this motion and area I usually confront the Police so I think the Minister should be Officers for neglecting to do their allowed to respond. I also want duty when I see vehicles speeding to comment that you cannot heal through the village without them a defect with a defect, prevention taking those drivers to task. The is better than curing. I mean that humps will help us because when what the mover of the motion has someone is speeding then they already put before us is really will be forced to reduce their important. speed. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI LEMPADI MR CHAIRMAN: I shall now (OKAVANGO REGION): allow the Minister to give his Thank you Mr Chairman. I have response with regards to the been prompted to stand up and motion. comment on the speaker who went against this motion. Mr Chairman MINISTER OF TRANSPORT what we are looking at here is the AND COMMUNICATIONS road regulations and the humps (HON RAMSDEN): Thank you will be aiding the road regulations Mr Chairman. I do acknowledge because the requirements are that you might not be aware of such that when a person is in the this but as Kgosi Seeletso pointed vicinity of a village then they out the A1 road is a highway from

32 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of Speed Humps along the A1 Road - Motion Ramatlabama to Ramokgwebana humps every 500 metres from and according to the International Ramatlabama to Ramokgwebana. Roads Manuals and Roads I was trying to show them that standards the highways are not they put people’s lives in danger supposed to have speed humps. with their reckless driving. The We would be the first country roads department is conducting to do that and this might pose a survey to determine where the negative results because this rumble strips can be placed and highway links us with countries the distance they should go for. like Zambia, DRC and South This would be to ensure that even Africa. The same applies to the though someone can drive over Trans Kalahari Highway because them at such a high speed they it links us with Namibia. should eventually coerce them to reduce their speed especially The concern about the occurrence when entering villages. Kgosi of accidents in these roads through Machilidza mentioned that the reckless driving is very true and speed limit set when you enter we looked at the possibility of the Mmadikola village from constructing humps and realised Rakops is 60km/h; that is true when someone comes driving at and it is the set requirement that a high speed then the possibility people should drive at that speed of severely damaging their car is when they enter villages. When highly likely. Nowadays there is you leave Gaborone and enter what referred to as rumble strips villages like Mogoditshane, and we have been considering Kumakwane and so on we require to install them a certain distance that the speed limit should be 60 before a village. It is the same for km/h. We are trying to prevent some drivers because they still situations whereby people and drive at a high speed when they livestock can be hit by the get those rumble strips and the vehicles and those are the types best thing perhaps would be for of villages where we are going to them to go a longer distance. hasten to install rumble strips so Mr Chairman it is not the first time that people should not drive at a such a request has been made. I high speed in those villages. once held a kgotla meeting and In response to the suggestion that I talked about the bad behaviour we should install the speed humps of drivers and pointed out that at Topisi and Moreomabele at the rate they are going we villages I should once again might end up constructing speed

33 Monday 24th January, 2011 Construction of Speed Humps along the A1 Road - Motion emphasise that this is a high way MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you road and as we are maintaining an Honourable Minister. Kgosi international standard, we cannot Boiditswe would you like to say say that we shall install the speed something? humps. We are however going KGOSI BOIDITSWE to install the rumble strips. All (SEROWE REGION): Thank the roads, particularly highways you Mr Chairman. I take it that which are within villages will the Members have supported me get speed humps installed for and the Minister did not refuse example when you enter Serowe what I said nor did he request coming from Orapa,on the first any statistics on pedestrians turn there is a Department of and livestock which have been Roads,Transport and Safety hit by cars. He stated what the (DRTS) and we have constructed international standards are with speed humps there. We did this regards to highways and I believe because we realised that as soon that whatever intervention the as drivers leave the village headed Government will adopt will just towards the road that goes to serve to indicate that there are Paje, they drive at a high speed. concerns in a certain area. These One day it happened that as I was rumble strips will caution many leaving Serowe village at around of our drivers and I believe that 4:30 a.m. or 5 o’clock in the only a few will remain unfazed. morning, someone overtook me Through those words Mr at a very high speed. When we Chairman I would like to indicate left the Basimane ward the driver that I agree with what the Minister was overtaking and lost control of and the other Members have said. the car which fell into a dumping Thank you. hole. We have since constructed speed humps in that area so that a MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI person would be forced to reduce KGARI SECHELE III): Thank their speed as soon as they hit the you Kgosi Boiditswe. Honourable first speed hump. The roads that Members ,we have discussed this are within the villages can have issue at length and let us conclude speed humps but when it comes by finding out those who agree to highways it will be difficult with the motion and they should because we are maintaining an indicate by saying ‘aye’, and those international standard. Thank who disagree should say ‘no’. you Mr Chairman. Question put and agreed to.

34 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion HALTING CHURCHES of the church is to build our REGISTRATION characters and churches also help to build our nation. I do however Motion believe that the Members of this MR CHAIRMAN: I have just House will agree with me that received a notification that the nowadays what we used to know Minister is on his way and so as the purpose of the church is no we can adjourn for five minutes longer the case. Churches are no whilst waiting for him. longer used to build people but PROCEEDINGS they are now business entities. SUSPENDED FOR FIVE Mr Chairman one issue that MINUTES has motivated me to bring this KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II motion forth is that the Churches (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr Registration Act has got some Chairman. As I pointed out earlier loopholes. Do not get me wrong, on I think we should take this I am not saying that new churches opportunity to show our concern should no longer be registered as the House when it comes to the but I am advocating that the way the Ministers work with us. registration should be halted Mr Chairman we are dissatisfied whilst we look into this Law to with the way things are happening see if we cannot come up with and I presume that perhaps that a better amendment that will is the way they would like us address the clause that allows for to work together. If that is the the easy registration of churches. case then we should be formally as it is currently the case. With informed that the Ministers would your permission Mr Chairman I like to work with us in this way so would like to remind the House that we get used to working with that there was once a question that them like that. Mr Chairman I am was brought to this House on the grateful for the chance that you 2nd of February 2010. We were have given me to introduce my told that according to the Societies motion to this House. The motion Act Cap: 18:01, for the church reads thus “That this Honourable to be registered there has to be a House request Government to minimum of ten members of the halt registering of churches”. Mr congregation and they should be Chairman I want to believe that having P500 registration fee. That a church is very important in a is why I am suggesting that the person’s life because the purpose Act should be looked into so that

35 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion it does not make it easy for people Chairman, he was from Nigeria if to register churches. I am aware I am not mistaken and he has his that it is every individual’s right to own church in this country. What have a place of worship but since puzzles me is what gives the there is a limitation clause in our people in other countries the idea Constitution can we not consider that we need salvation more than that, in order to protect Batswana. any other country in Africa. They Batswana are exploited by people leave their countries which have who claim to be Pastors whose more problems and come to ours characters are very questionable. but anyway the Pastor told me At times we see someone from that there were 49 people in the Nigeria coming to establish a church’s payroll and within this 49 church in our country and our people, only nine were Batswana children will be spending their and that means the rest of the nights there. What kind of church people were not Batswana. When is attended at night? We have we continued questioning him seen instances where the churches he told us that in the payroll the have broken over a simple highest paid individual earns P50, misunderstanding and sooner or 000 per month. I want to believe later you see the group who broke that even Ministers are not paid away registering a church. that much and that only serves to show that these people come Mr Chairman I believe that all of from their countries to exploit us are aware that we are a very our communities. Mr Chairman small population; however the that is why I pointed out earlier churches that we have in this on that, churches break down country outnumber us. Last year over petty issues like fighting for we were told that we have over positions or even the church’s 1,317 churches in our country assets. I do appeal to this House to and one other thing that these support me on this motion, so that churches are supposed to be we can request the Government doing is to declare their financial to temporarily suspend the status and it is not every church registration of churches. This that abides to this. Of the 1,317 would give us an opportunity to churches that we have in this look into the existing Laws and country, only 621 of the total see how they can be amended and number declare and the rest of do not get me wrong, I am not the 691 churches do not do that. suggesting that we should make it There is one Pastor I once met Mr difficult for Batswana to practise

36 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion their beliefs but on the other hand country, we must first consider we must not make it too easy what the Constitution says. The for people to come and register Constitution clearly states that churches because we can see that there is “freedom of worship.” this has led to people exploiting What the mover of the motion Batswana. These people overlooked is that fact. This then eventually disappear into thin air implies that if the registration of leaving people wondering where churches is halted then people they went to with their money. can challenge the Constitution. With those few words I thank you Would the approach be to go out to Mr Chairman and I would like to the people and consult with them remind the members of staff that to find out what their opinions the Chairman has to be shown are with regards to halting the some respect as we leave or enter registration of churches? To this House. amend the Constitution is a big issue and it takes time to do that KGOSI MACHILIDZA because usually a referendum has (BOTETI REGION): Thank to be undertaken. I do not mean you Mr Chairman and I also to discourage him but I only want thank the mover of the motion. us to look at the bigger picture. I would like to add on to Kgosi Originally we did not have this Lotlamoreng’s lamentation that Christian religion as Batswana; it this House is not taken seriously is a religion that was brought to by the Ministers. It is like we this country by the missionaries are deferring most questions and like David Livingstone and motions whilst we submit them others. We had our own African well before time so that they can religion that we followed. be considered. This situation is really bothering us to an extent The mover of the motion pointed that we no longer know what to out that people come from do. Should we not submit the countries like Nigeria to come questions anymore and ask them and set up churches in this country only when we get here? We bring and perhaps this clause that talks the questions ahead of time so about freedom of religion or that things can be in order. To freedom of worship is the one touch on the motion that has been that encourages this influx of brought before the House I would people coming to set up churches like to point out that whenever here. Perhaps they come with the we want to do most things in this intention to help people. We all

37 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion know that people have a lot of the low membership required problems Mr Chairman and when to form a church then perhaps someone comes with promises to we should rather move that the help solve their problems then number should be increased from naturally they turn to that person 10 to 25 members and start from for help. I want us to consider there instead of suggesting for the some of those possibilities as we amendment of the Constitution. debate this motion. Thank you Mr Chairman. We do understand what the KGOSI RAMOKWENA mover of the motion is saying and (MAUN REGION): Thank perhaps he could have mentioned you Mr Chairman. The mover that as churches keep on breaking of the motion has brought it at up and new ones being registered an appropriate time. I speak as every other day this can end up a Reverend and as an ex leader causing confusion. Perhaps the of the council of church leaders Ministry of Labour and Home which I led for 10 years. In all the Affairs could take the churches on years that I led this council, over board in order to train people on fifty cases that were brought to us the right way of leading churches. were about broken churches and Since everyone is at liberty to it is very common that a single form their own church people church can end up having 20 just leave their churches over broken away churches. I would petty issues to go and form their like to emphasise that I truly own churches and perhaps people support this motion because the can be guided on how that can mover made a good suggestion be resolved. When we talk about that the registration of churches a religion and worship we are should be halted so that the talking about the pillars of peace section of the Act that governs and tranquillity. We know that in the churches can be looked into. some countries there are conflicts This can give us the opportunity that sometimes arise between to correct those procedures that religious groups but in our country could be enabling an increase of we have co- existed very well with the problems that we have. other religious groups. If there Mr Chairman, nowadays were any problems then perhaps Christianity is a very important that is when we can suggest practice, working for God is a very that the Constitution should be noble act that should be given due amended. If at all we talk about respect. What Kgosi Lotlamoreng

38 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion has said is a fact; that is what is There are two churches in Maun happening around. There are titles and as I speak to you one of the that are given to the leaders of churches has got six branches the church for example there are in the area. When we were in a Archbishops, Bishops and there conciliation meeting with the are Ministers of Religion who fighting parties in the church, are referred to as Reverends and one of them pointed out that he Pastors. There are also elders in already had 10 members who the church who are referred to as were willing to go with him Deacons and usually when the and so he was forming his own church breaks up that is when you church. The church is situated in will realise that there is a serious a homestead and the Archbishop problem because usually even the who led the group which broke Bishops do not know the church away had taken the church Constitution even though they funds. Apparently the district are the founders of the church. council had compensated them They are called Archbishops and for moving them from their they do not even know what the worship area in order to make meaning of the word is, you will way for the Maun airport and discover that even those who now the Archbishop was taking come after him/her do not know all the money for his use. When what their titles mean as well. you listen to all the issues that At times the Archbishop is the were brought up as causes of treasurer as well, he/she will then the conflicts they will leave you go to the extent of refusing to let wondering if at all these issues go of the church funds. have got any religious element or they are just messing about with When you consider all these the name of God. things that are happening, you will realise that they tarnish the I support Kgosi Lotlamoreng’s name of God. You will even motion and we are not saying wonder how somebody claims that religion should be forbidden to lead a church when they but rather I believe that if cannot even read the Bible. First Government could take us on and foremost there should be board to work with it we could be a Constitution that governs the able to correct some anomalies. church but you will discover If I can cite an example Mr that in most churches there is no Chairman, at the United Constitution. Congregational Church of

39 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion Southern Africa (UCCSA) for and do not get me wrong, I am one to become a reverend they not saying that young boys have to undertake certain studies. should not be believers but I One has to pass the Theology was appalled by the behaviour studies or undertake a Diploma of some of these young men. In or Degree course up to a higher one of the meetings with them level which you wish to go. as the council of church leaders Afterwards one has to go through we realised that one of the young a probation period where they men was carrying a knife in his will spend 2 years or even go up pocket. The intention was to to 6 years if at all one’s behaviour stab the Archbishop they were does not please the elders. When disagreeing with and this left us they meet the expectations that is wondering if at all that person when they can be ordained as a was fit to talk about Christ when priest. For one to become a priest he did not even fear to walk about or pastor they have to have been carrying weapons. The truth is trained and that alone shows that that it is very easy to register a for one to become a Christian it church and that is why they can is something that they have to and that is why I truly support work for because even for Jesus Kgosi Lotlamoreng’s motion. Christ it was not easy. We all I have so many examples that I know that he was tempted by the can cite that will show things that devil when he fasted for 40 days tarnish the name of the church. and 40 nights. Moses also led the To add salt to injury, these many Israelites for 40 years as well. churches that are coming up are All these challenges served to meeting along the river bank prepare them to be the servants in Maun. I am not sure if it is of God but on the contrary because of the river but as we nowadays people just wake up all know there are no ablution and decide to form a church. facilities in that area. They spend I did mention from the beginning their day there and that leaves that one church broke into me wondering if they never get 6 different churches and the the call of nature and when they second one was broken into 7 do where do they go? Those who other churches and both these register churches in Maun once broken churches began as one asked us to help them address church. The members of these this situation of worshiping churches are just small boys by the river banks and in the

40 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion homes and we have been trying have some concerns regarding to deal with these situations Mr churches that come from other Chairman. Kgosi Lotlamoreng’s countries because it appears motion could help us to look like they have a belief that there into these issues so that we may is a lot of money in Botswana. not find the name of God being These churches outnumber those used for blasphemous purposes traditional churches that have just because no one can be taken always been in this country and to task for using it. Perhaps we in my opinion they are going to can come up with certain clauses impoverish this country. These that can help the Government to churches demand that a lot of address this situation. This can money should be contributed help us prevent situations where during their services.For example anybody can form a church just whereby people contribute P1 or because they know one common P2 at the Dutch Reformed Church verse from the Bible. Thank you or the United Congregational Mr Chairman. Church of Southern Africa (UCCSA) but you cannot see KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA anyone donating a coin at those REGION): Thank Mr Chairman. churches. When you visit these I stand to support Kgosi churches you will witness baskets Lotlamoreng’s motion that the being moved around so that registration of churches should money can be deposited into the be halted and the section of the baskets. Our youth will not deny Constitution governing churches that at the end of every month should be revisited and looked they have to part with 10% of their into. Mr Chairman I also have salaries to give to a church that a concern when it comes to the would not even build a structure rate at which churches are being in this country but rather would formed and I believe that a church take the money to their countries. should have proper leadership What does that tell you? That is that lives what it teaches. Why why I am saying that they bring are churches breaking up when poverty to this country. At the end they should instead lead by of the month our children take example and show that it is their salaries and donate them to important to forgive? When they the church whilst their parents are have a disagreement sooner or starving at the villages and that later someone breaks away and will leave you wondering where form their own church. I also this country is going.

41 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion I agree that we should look someone wants to register a into increasing the number of church they should first be asked people needed to form a church if they are breaking away from because you get people breaking any church and if at all they away from a church and forming would be breaking away from theirs immediately and you tend any particular church they should to wonder when those people be encouraged to go and try to crafted their church constitution. sort out their differences before How easy is it for that to be being awarded a certificate accepted at your Ministry? As and being allocated a place of Kgosi Ramokwena has just worship. I agree with the mover pointed out, you will notice of the motion, that we are a that these break away churches small population of 2 million but comprise of young people who we already have around 1317 spend all their time at that church churches, they are just too many even to the extent of spending for our population and what the night there. That occasionally will more churches teach that had me wondering what kind of will be different? What do their preaching or worshipping is it, constitutions say? which has to go on all night long. I still maintain that I support These children usually depict Kgosi Lotlamoreng’s motion rebellious behaviour at their that the registration of churches homes but in the evening they put should be halted so that the on their gowns and go to church constitution can be looked into all night long. Is it really a church and also efforts should be made they would be going to? first to enquire why people have At the end of it all the money broken away from their original that is collected in the church churches before they are given ends up being an object of the certificates. Certificates misunderstandings and someone should not only be issued just will break away and form because people meet the required their own church after being number of ten people. Naturally registered by the department when someone leaves a certain under your Ministry. How can organisation to form their these people not practise what own, there should be reasons they preach, because forgiveness established as to why that and reconciliation is what they particular person chose to leave preach? I feel that whenever and efforts should be made to try

42 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion and resolve the misunderstandings one who has the power to heal before the person can finally be through the word and what about allowed to go ahead with their them? Where do they get those own church. I do emphasise that powers? Our children’s health is the registration should be halted being compromised, there were because of the rate at which the already signs of progress when it number of churches is growing. comes to having another chance They are going to end up being of life when taking ARVs. The over 2000. practice is that when they throw away these pills the person who PROCEEDINGS claims to have healed them takes SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH away those pills and goes to his/ MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI her country with them. That KGARI SECHELE III): When is why we are so adamant that we adjourned for lunch Kgosi this issue should be looked into, Seeletso was on the floor. If so that we can come up with a you had not yet conluded your criteria for determining churches debate, I allow you to continue which deserve to be registered. Honourable Member. Thank you. KGOSI SEELETSO: Thank KGOSI KAHIKO III (GHANZI you Mr Chairman. I will conclude WEST REGION): Thank you the debate. I want to appeal to Mr Chairman. I stand to support the Minister that we are not Kgosi Lotlamoreng’s motion. merely talking when we say that With all the Government policies the registration should be halted. there comes a time when they We are actually looking at a lot should be reviewed to see if they of issues. Some Churches are are meeting the intended purpose referred to as Pentecostal churches or not. In some programmes if and they do not even know what it is in terms of the review the that word means. When you look programme is usually suspended carefully into these issues you will until that review is completed, that realise that it is these churches is when the amended policy or that encourage our children to programme can be utilised. That throw away their Anti Retroviral is the reason why I feel that what Drugs just because they claim to Kgosi Lotlamoreng is suggesting have the abilities to cure HIV/ should be implemented so that AIDS through their prayers. we can be able to look at the Law We know that Jesus is the only and see how it can be modified

43 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion to prevent the problems that we motion like this is suggested and are currently experiencing from you have someone saying that continuing. You cannot continue they do not agree with it then this to implement a programme that will only mislead the nation. We is not working whilst you are should support this motion and reviewing it because it can only advocate for the Law to be looked lead to chaos. The sensible thing into. The Constitution allows would be to suspend it for some every individual to have freedom time until the review is over. The of religion or worship but if there mover of the motion mentioned are some things that are not going the issue of the low number of well then it should definitely be membership needed in order to reconsidered. We are not saying register a church. That is a very that people should not worship low number of people such that but we should consider if it is the even I can just round up members kind of practice that is good for of my family and register a everyone concerned. With those church. These are some of the few reasons, I support this motion things that need to be looked into Mr Chairman. Thank you. especially since I have once heard KGOSI MOETI II the Minister of Labour and Home (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Affairs talking about these issues. Thank you Mr Chairman. I would One other point that I wish to touch like to point out something before on is that there is an influx of people I continue with my debate. When from other countries who come to we talk about issues of Religion stay in this country and usually especially Christianity, the these people come as Pastors. church, God and spirituality could This then had me wondering, if we please refer to the Bible. The at all there are some people who Bible says, “in the latter days the earn around P50 000 in a month glory of God shall be greater than through the money contributed in the former days”. This simply as tithes and these Pastors do not implies that most of us will be even contribute those tithes then nearer to God and most people how much money goes to these will be Christians and some will Pastors who even have 40 people be Priests. It continues to say that, on their payroll. This means that “young men shall dream dreams they are affecting the economy and older men shall see visions”. of our country and as such our This is an example of some of the economy will not grow. When a events that will indicate to us that

44 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion the Lord’s coming is near. That difficult to regulate religion and is what evangelism is all about faith; we are going to continue according to the Bible. Even encountering some problems. The though we are saying that things Muslims believe in the system should be halted, the Revelations where by the Government is that in the Bible explain what God of their religion so that whatever says about this era. I just wanted goes on is understood by all. to introduce my debate by I wanted to clarify that so that showing what the Bible says and we know that when we do not if we look at this issue in another understand how things work at the manner we have to consider that broader level then it is going to be this is a Democratic Republic and difficult to regulate the churches. it is a secular Government. When Perhaps if we can give ourselves we talk about theocracy in terms a chance to understand the church of the Government, we would be as well as what faith means then talking about a Government of that is when we can manage to God’s people by God’s people regulate things well. for God’s purpose. I suspect that One other issue that I have noticed perhaps the chaos is caused by the is that those who have debated fact that in a secular environment before me lack knowledge in it is difficult to regulate religious certain areas concerning this issue issues more especially when we and it is always the case where do not know the standards or faith and religion are concerned. percepts. Some of the Honourable Some people end up doubting it Members have pointed out that and fearing being cheated but what there is an influx of people coming we are talking about is typical into our country to form churches missionary work that has long and they have been wondering been in existence. A long time ago why that is the case. I believe that white people used to be the ones this can be attributed to what is who came as missionaries but referred to in religious terms as a since religion is forever growing ‘calling.’ When someone prays, we now have black people as God leads him/her to where he missionaries as well and perhaps wants him/her to go and preach we do not trust them since they the word whereas when people are of the same race. I am not regard that person by secular saying that Batswana should be standards then there will be left to be cheated but I am only misunderstandings. That is why saying I have some reservations I am saying that it is going to be

45 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion when it comes to this motion and assume that he/she has come to that is why I cannot agree with it cheat people. Lack of knowledge because I take it that it is not all of is what is coming up in this issue us who are well versed in religious and that is why I am saying we matters. There are however are going to have problems with certain areas where I would not formation of churches even have any problem if they were to though there is no need to be. be looked into but in other areas Mr Chairman, I do not agree it shows that we lack knowledge, with this motion, particularly like where we talk about the 10% because it explicitly states ‘that that is given as tithes. That is this Honourable House request where I am saying that there are Government to halt registering of going to be problems for as long churches.’ I say that evangelism as we deal with religious matters should continue to be spread. from a secular point. In hindsight I remember that in I am suggesting that we should 2009 there were some churches educate ourselves more about where Pastors were investigated faith and religion so that we know by the Government and they what is happening around us. I were deported as the Government heard one Honourable Member felt that their ways were a threat pointing out that one Pastor said as they failed to account for that he could heal somebody their accounts. During this time with the word of God and they the Department of Registry of were wondering how that can be Associations took an internal possible and I remember that in look at their Laws and amended the Bible Jesus Christ said that, them. I take it that whatever “the things that I do you shall do, Kgosi is suggesting is something even greater you shall do because that has already been done. I I will be with the father”. What it take it that the exercise was done means is that when someone goes properly without any prejudice around healing people through to anyone or without the closure prayer and exorcising demonic of any churches that other would spirits that is something that have preferred they be closed. non-believer deems impossible Mr Chairman, in short I would whereas the Bible says that such like to emphasise that I do not things happen. When a Pastor agree with this motion and that preaches what is in the Bible we the word of God should continue do not believe him/her and we to be preached. Thank you.

46 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion KGOSI LEMPADI Mr Chairman. I do not mean (OKAVANGO REGION): to imply that Kgosi Lempadi Thank you Mr Chairman. I is saying anything wrong but I stand to support this motion that am suggesting that we should I have come to realize that some consider what Kgosi Moeti was Members do not quite understand saying. When we are talking it. We are not saying that churches about the Bible we are talking should be closed or that religion about a book that was written by should be abolished. We are wise men and they wrote about also not saying anything about the situations that we are now some churches not being good, debating about. I am suggesting but rather we are advocating that it should be made clear that that the registration of churches we are not disregarding the words should be monitored because it that are in the Bible and the words appears like new churches are that were directed to us. being registered at an alarming MR CHAIRMAN: Who rate. I do not see how this can spoke those words Kgosi? stop religious practice in any KGOSI MACHILIDZA: The way. I feel that there is nothing speaker who talked about the wrong with this motion because Revelations verse in the Bible this means that things have to be which explains how most things registered and regulated so that will unfold. I had thought that we can clearly see where we are Kgosi Moeti was paving the way going. The focus should not only for us so that when we debate we be on whether an individual has a should do it along those lines. membership that qualifies for him/ her to register a church but their KGOSI LEMPADI aims and objectives should also (OKAVANGO REGION): be considered before they can be The Bible also states that some registered. We are not saying that hypocrites will come out under it should be abolished but we are the pretext of being Pastors saying that the registration should and we cannot just sit back and be halted so that the anomalies watch that happening without can be corrected. Whenever you doing anything about it. We are do something in this world.... all believers and we do read the Bible and there is nothing that is KGOSI MACHILIDZA going to prevent us from doing (BOTETI REGION): On a what is right. Mr Chairman point of elucidation. Thank you everything that we come up with

47 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion should be something that will I remember well it is not the first be of benefit to this country. We time this issue has been brought look at this and see whether some before this House, it is only that of these churches ever bring I do not recall the response that developments to this country was given. I vaguely remember because I want to believe that that it was agreed upon and the they should. There is one in my Minister had promised to look area and it is locally referred to as into the Law and see how it can the “Western Church” and I once be amended in order to counter called the churches in my area to this problem and we have never talk about their non attendance of had feedback on that. New Year and Independence day We are not against religion or celebrations and I was informed what is written in the Bible and we that such “western churches” do should also be careful because the not participate in those events Bible is a tricky book to interpret; and up to this day I have never for example Some Pastors preach met the elders of those churches. that when a person passes away, They never came to the Kgotla he/she goes to heaven and some to introduce themselves when say when a person passes away they came to set up a church in their soul just disappears. We the village and these are some want to keep an eye on these of the things that puzzle us and upcoming churches because as when you trace to find out if they keep increasing they might at all it is an authentic church, begin to mislead people. Let us you will find that it is legally correct this situation. I would registered. We should not stop like to request the Minister that the registration of churches it should be emphasised that but we should try to focus and whenever these people come and determine if at all they are worth register a church, there should be registering. Where does all the some membership cards that they money that is made in those produce in order to authenticate churches go to? The Head offices that they are indeed the members of most of these churches are in of that particular church. I am other countries like South Africa saying this because it is possible and Nigeria and why is that? that someone can pay people That is why we are saying that to come and masquerade as the the registration of these churches Members of his/her church just should be halted and that the so that it can be registered. Law should be looked into and if

48 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion Even the membership of ten should have ensured that they people that is required is too little amend the motion in order to and like one Member has already incorporate that. It is still fine pointed out, I can take my family though even if it has not been and go and register a church. included but since it has been the Those churches make so much one that the other Members have money and I am talking about been focussing on I would like to things that I know for a fact. My say that the effort the Government children attend these modern is putting in place is one way of churches and I sometimes ask looking into the systems because them where it is that they take we all know that whenever there their money and they always tell are programs or systems there me that they pay tithes at church are some people who usually use which amounts to 10% of their them to their advantage. It is the salaries. The important question responsibility of the Government is to enquire where that much to see to it that the system is money goes because whenever monitored. you enquire you will find that The problem that I have is that the these churches are mostly led mover of the motion mentioned by foreigners. These are some of that churches no longer build the reasons why we suggest that people and I am saying that this the Minister should look into this issue can be looked at in different issue and in the meantime halt ways. Perhaps their lack of the registration until a resolution guidance can be attributed to the is reached. Thank you. weakness of the church leadership KGOSI GAREBAKWENA and the church constitution (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): and it is an issue that cannot be Thank you Mr Chairman. I stand solved by halting the churches to debate on this motion that registration. He also mentioned reads thus, “That this Honourable that churches have turned into House requests Government to businesses. As I have said about halt registering of churches.” I taking advantage of systems, have heard most of the Members there are some who will want to who have debated, talking about avoid paying the Value Added Tax reviewing the Law that governs (VAT).When there are too many the registration of churches and road accidents, the Government I believe that if at all this review takes the initiative to ensure that was deemed important then they driving lessons that people are

49 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion given before they are awarded a so that we can establish the licence are improved and those possibility of a church making are some of the ways through that much money in order to pay which the Government improves their pastor. We are not sure that systems and so the same can be there is such a church that pays done with churches. The mover its pastor P50, 000 per month and of the motion also pointed out that unless he gives us the figures, that these booming churches are too is when we can believe. Kgosi many for the population of this also mentioned the 10% that is country and I would like to point contributed towards the church out that he should talk about the set and I would like to emphasise that standards. For example when you paying tithes is in the scripture. plan to build a library you should It is in Malachi, Chapter 3. In consider the size of the population it God emphasises that he has you are building it for. You cannot been robbed and that shows the talk about the churches being too seriousness of not paying tithes in much for the population without the church, however that depends having standards that determine on faith and your beliefs. If one the appropriate number. When does not believe, then they would a motion like this is presented not see the seriousness of not seeking our support it should be paying tithes even though that accompanied by the necessary shows that he is robbing God. figures and that is why I explained These are the points that one earlier on that you cannot plan for should know about Christianity anything without first establishing and we cannot blame people for the figurers since figurers are a tool believing in them. We should talk for planning. You should at least about things that we know for have standards to indicate how a fact that they are not right not many churches there should be whereby God has written the word per a certain number of people. and we go against it. That will not be right. One other point that was The mover of the motion also made by Kgosi Moeti is that the pointed out that churches do not Bible says that in the last days declare their assets and I do not the word of God will be preached agree with that notion. Kgosi to everyone and for the word pointed out that there is a pastor to be preached there should be who earns around P50, 000.00, churches. We all know that apart but he did not tell us how many from churches there are Satanists people there are in that church who go against the word of God

50 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion and what it stands for. We cannot have debated have been recorded just stop the operation of churches and anyone who will get to without any intense research listen to the recording will know because we might find ourselves that the reference was made to going against God’s word because Pentecostal churches. otherwise we would be setting That is the problem I have in ourselves for doom. We should supporting this motion. We know not disregard the Governments’ that there are mainline churches efforts and come up with motions which have always been there to stop churches. I personally find and when the other churches it difficult to support this motion. started coming up, this was not Thank you. a welcome development to them. KGOSI BOIDITSWE We have also read from the New (SEROWE REGION): Thank Testament where the church and you Mr Chairman. We have been the believers were ill treated. We presented with a motion to halt have been declared a Christian the registration of churches and to country and therefore we must me when we talk about churches be very conscious when it comes we are talking about something to religion and we still have other serious which involves a lot of religious groups asking why we people. This then means that were declared a Christian country when we propose to halt the whilst their religions also exist in registration we should consider this country. We should also bear how much it is going to affect in mind that some countries are others. There are different types envious of our peace and as we of churches being the Mainline resolve our conflicts peacefully Churches, Evangelical Churches other countries do not like it and and the Pentecostal churches and that is why I am emphasising I fear that we are focused much that we should be very careful on the Pentecostal church since when we talk about religion. it is the one that emphasises We all know that churches are pledging of tithes. forever increasing and I believe that everyone here knows that I am unnerved by this singling it is not the first time this issue out of the Pentecostal church is arising and the Ministry is instead of talking about the putting efforts in place to combat churches in general. The issue the situation. Even with the issue might not be welcome by people of Membership needed in order from these churches. Those who

51 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion to register a church, I believe that country but we still get other the Ministry is doing something business people coming to set about it. up new businesses here and the same applies to the Gospel. If we are talking about halting the There are local priests but there registration it now appears like we are other priests who come from are being Anti- Christ whilst we their own countries to come and are a country that believes in God. set up churches locally. The We should instead suggest ways Government is keeping an eye to improve instead of saying that on these things to ensure that it should be completely stopped the people who come here do because otherwise it might what they came here for. We appear like we are going against are a Government that wants the religion we are known for. transparency. I appreciate what Things are different these days, Kgosi Lotlamoreng has come countries keep an eye on each with but I cannot support the other and if as Ntlo Ya Dikgosi motion because it requests for we suggest that we should stop the registration of churches to registering churches then sooner be halted and my worry is how or later such news will reach long will we halt and what are other countries and they will we going to be doing in the start to doubt our Government. meantime? I suggest that the motion should be crafted in a different manner KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH and I appreciate that for us to EAST REGION): Thank you Mr reach this conclusion we must Chairman. I wish to express this have realised that something quote that reads thus, “who has is not going well since we are the right to decide the character Christians and we know how of the nation?” Unfortunately I things are supposed to be. The do not have the name of its author use of the word “halt” is the one but anyway this issue that has which makes it difficult for me been brought before the House to support this motion because is a constitutional matter. It is we are not sure of how long the a constitutional matter because review would take place. the Botswana Government signed the Declaration of the Somebody mentioned that Bill of Right which is included priesthood is a calling and I in the United Nations Charter, would like to cite that we have and which simply states that got local business people in this

52 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion the Government of Botswana moment. I believe that as Dikgosi guarantees freedom of movement, we should protect the institution worship, consigns, as well as the of the church. I say this because freedom of mobility. I feel that if we can support this motion we might send a wrong I do understand Kgosi message to the nation since they Lotlamoreng’s motion and expect us to be their protectors. his introduction of the motion Churches have been tainted by however I have also taken note bad practices within themselves of what Kgosi Moeti has said as we know that there are some as well. The problem that I people who have used the church have is with the word “halt” for money laundering, human just as Kgosi Boiditswe has trafficking and all these other already indicated. Botswana is things but that does not mean that a peaceful, Democratic country we should use those events as the and since that is the case then basis for stopping the church and why should we prevent people all the good things it does. The from practicing their religion? Mr important thing is for the Minister Chairman I request that we should or the Government to approach remove the word “halt” because the churches and Batswana in I would rather we talk about general so that they can get putting self regulatory systems ideas from the nation as to how in place. The Government of this this problem can be addressed. country does not have the right Mr Chairman the church is a to tell the people of this country foundation of everything that what kind of religion they should we believe in. This is a Christian follow. The Government has the country. The blessings of this right to guide people as per the country are guaranteed because procedures and hence that is what God has been at the forefront leads me to the quotation that I of this country and the biggest uttered earlier on about, “who has mistake that we could ever do the right to decide the character as a country is to forget what of the nation”. Batswana have a God has done for us. I stand right to choose when they want here not disregarding what kgosi to pray and I want to believe that Lotlamoreng has said but rather the church has been castigated just to advice him as a Member for many years. of this House and also to point I can liken this assault to what out that I do not agree with this Bogosi is experiencing at the motion as well.

53 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion I particularly liked Kgosi Moeti’s the churches would be forced to words, that we do not understand review their constitution because the functions of the church and what Kgosi Lotlamoreng has so let there be consultations on said is indeed true. Churches are this issue. As the Minister goes divided in this country but in the around in our Dikgotla that is end the greatness of God outlaws when all those issues that we do the negative aspects and that is not understand will be clarified why I am saying that there should and that way Batswana will be be the self regulatory systems that well informed and if the Laws should start by the Government are reviewed then we can be able correcting the Immigration to see a difference just as Kgosi Regulatory Systems and some Kahiko has pointed out. of the other processes which can guide on how the church should Mr Chairman I do not mean to be. The Government can talk be long however I would like to to Batswana so that they can emphasise that, the meaning of provide a fresh mandate which objects does not lie in the objects can in turn help to govern the themselves. We are the human churches. Thank you. beings and it is in our nature to attach meanings to things, for MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you example a dog is originally just Kgosi. Earlier on I had thought a simple animal like any other that you were going to propose an but it is humans who denote amendment, but you continued what a dog is all about. The same to debate. I assume that your applies to religious believers intention was to debate in order because the church has a certain to show why you do not agree meaning to them that would be with the motion. otherwise lacking to some who KGOSI TSHIPE do not understand the process (MAHALAPYE REGION): and the worth or value of the Thank you Mr Chairman. I will church. That being the case, if we not be too long in my debate can hasten to obstruct that which since the motion has been is the meaning of the church to debated at length. Perhaps I those who believe in it then that did not understand the motion would not be fair Mr Chairman. especially considering the I believe that we should rather comments that have already introduce what is referred to as been said by the other Members a self regulatory system whereby who have spoken before me. I

54 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion understood the motion to say out what could be causing this that the registration of churches problem. Is it because people should be halted whilst the Law is have an interest in depleting our reviewed and not to stop religion economy or they want to develop as I hear the other Members it. Just because our country is of saying. I thought that the mover a Christian faith it does not mean of the motion is basically that we should allow the status requesting that since the number quo to prevail such that the initial of churches is increasing and intention for freedom of worship their reputation is questionable in this country’s constitution is then perhaps the registration of now clouded. I take it that this new churches should be halted so is what the mover of the motion that this situation can be looked was driving at. I take it that the into. I believe that the motion word “halt” is the one which is referring to that and not that caused the confusion and my religion should be stopped. belief is that the word does not mean that the registration of new We all know that the set up of churches should be abolished. this Government cannot allow This word is normally used in religion to be abolished and I the force and as the soldiers are believe that this Government marching when they instructed was voted according to the to halt, it only means they should Constitution which in itself has temporarily stop the marching. To got sections that talk about the my understanding, this word only religion. I also believe that if that means that the procedure should religion is not going according to be suspended and this matter the way it is supposed to then it is should be looked into before new necessary to review the processes churches can continue to register. and see to it that all is corrected. Whenever that word is used That is why there is a Ministry during the soldiers’ march it will which governs churches which is probably be because the leader lead by Honourable Siele. That has noticed that the lines are Ministry has the powers to come not straight and that is why they up with regulations that can would be stopped so that they can correct this anomaly. straighten their lines and continue The issue that is of paramount with the marching. I believe that importance is that churches are this word is appropriately used being formed at an alarming rate in this context. Mr Chairman and the important thing is to find I do not have much to say, just

55 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion that I agree with this motion. make contributions. That is why When you review churches I support this motion because registration Act you should focus this situation will be addressed. on the part about the membership It does not mean that when we needed in order to register a talk about freedom of worship church. That is the big problem, people should exploit others in otherwise everything else about the name of religion when they the preaching, what the bible know very well that they are not says and so forth all that is fine real priests. In short I support this because that is what we believe motion. Thank you. in. I think that many of us did not KGOSI RAMOKWENA really grasp where the mover of (MAUN REGION): Mr the motion was driving. He is not Chairman could I please clarify fighting religion or God but rather something? he wants for some things to be addressed that are not going well MR CHAIRMAN: I do not when it comes to the practises of think that I will be following the some churches. Thank you. procedure if I can allow you. I now want to give the Minister a KGOSI MOSEKI (GHANZI chance to respond. EAST REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. I stand to support MINISTER OF LABOUR this motion. If I heard the mover AND HOME AFFAIRS (HON of the motion well, this is an SIELE): Thank you Mr Chairman. issue that is of serious concern to I am also grateful for the motion all of us. There are a lot of issues and the way Kgosi Lotlamoreng that are brought before us about introduced it by airing his the fights in the churches and concerns and fears. I listened well when you summon those Pastors to the debates and I can conclude to the Kgotla they never come. I that the gist of the matter is the agree with him completely where same; the only difference arose in he mentioned that churches are the understanding of the motion no longer building people but or the use of certain words in the instead we are noticing a sudden motion. trend of people becoming priests. Mr Chairman I have realised that Whenever someone does not there are a lot of churches that are have a job they resort to forming coming up lately and usually these their own church and sooner or churches are a break away from later people are requested to a main church. The breakaways

56 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion are normally caused by fights these conflicts. Issues of fighting for the church funds and assets for leadership are also rife and because nowadays people have this is common amongst newly developed greediness including formed churches that come from those we were expecting to lead other countries in which large us to salvation. These are the amounts of money are collected. people we turn to because we Usually some members of the believe that they are closer to God congregation end up saying that and this is rather discouraging. they are not aware of where their This issue is not only bothering money is being utilised. the House but it is a problem for These are some of the issues that the Government because of the lead us to decide to review this growing trend of newly formed Act and mainly because initially churches and it is serious to the the Law did not give the Minister extent that we have even started the authority to turn to the Law to review the Registration Act. if such issues arise. Our Law is I heard most Members weak in such areas and those are complaining about the low some of the aspects that we shall membership of 10 people amend as we continue with the required in registering a church consultations. The membership and we are looking into it, it may number of 10 people is just too be coming up with the standards low. This is one issue which with the church leadership in we have to discuss during the general. Most of these issues of consultations and come up with church misunderstandings reach a solution and through your my office. Tomorrow I will be debates I have got an idea of how holding a kgotla meeting at the you would like things to be. Bangwaketse Kgotla and in the Mr Chairman, section 3 of the afternoon I will be mediating in constitution talks about the one of the misunderstanding of human rights and section 11 one church. I heard the Members talks about freedom of worship saying that there are churches and freedom of expression and which have long been around as such that is what makes it and I would like to point out that difficult for me to say that it can it is exactly at those churches that be possible for me to agree with most conflicts emanate. There you now that we should halt the are only a few churches that registration of churches. That is have never had an experience of where the problem is because

57 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion if we do that we would be arise. The churches also do not trampling the human rights that make it a point that at the end of are there in the constitution of every year they account for their the country. If after this we halt use of funds as they are supposed the registration of churches then to do. I agree with all what the it means that whoever comes to Honourable Members have said register his/her own church will but the only problem is that I not be allowed and according cannot agree with that we should to the constitution we would be stop the registration now as that violating their rights. Over and will be against the constitution of above all everything that has the country. Thank you. been said by the mover of the KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II motion about the growing trend (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr of newly registered churches and Chairman. I would like to take the conflicts within churches is this opportunity to thank the true and I agree that it is about Minister for his response just like time we review the Act. other Members he has realised Some of the issues that we talked that there are problems of the about that are done in churches growing trend of newly registered like giving tithes are spoken about churches in this country. I also in the Bible. There is a verse in take this opportunity to thank all the Bible that says “Bring ye all the other Dikgosi who understood the tithes into the storehouse, that my motion the way I had intended there may be meat in mine house for it to be understood and also and prove me now herewith, for those who might not have said the Lord.” When the Pastors understood my motion the way explain it they say that it means I had intended I thank them for that one should give what they their contributions as well. have be it livestock or anything. Mr Chairman I would like to When you have cattle, you should highlight and clarify few issues. give the tenth one as tithes. If it is Firstly I would like the House to a salary you should give 10% of understand that I am not against it to the church. Some churches religion at all and I would never reflect in their constitution what be against it as other Dikgosi the tithes are intended for and reflected in their debates. If ever it is only that some churches do there are people who are staunch not abide by their constitution Christians in this House I am one and that is why these problems of them.

58 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion I am grateful that the Minister your permission I would like to has given us a good response read it ,“Whereas every person and I do understand that this in Botswana is entitled to the motion has got implications fundamental rights and freedom on the Constitution as well of the individual, that is to say, however I do not believe that the the right whatever his or her race, Constitution can stop us from place of origin, political opinion, doing that which we intend to do. colour, creed or sex, but subject Mr Chairman, the Constitution to the right and freedom of others belongs to this country and it and for the public interest to each has worked very well for us as a of the following’, and this is nation. I know that this country is even applicable to issues of faith, a member of the United Nations that as long as the Government (UN). There are some things that reckons that it is better to stop the United Nations has come up something for the public interest with before and because we felt then it is rightfully allowed to do as a country that some practices so. We are not saying that religion have worked for us we stuck to should be abolished in Botswana them. We know that Section 4 but we are saying that as we of the Constitution of Botswana continue to review this Act let us talks about capital punishment suspend the registration of new and as we all know there have churches. Somebody enquired as been appeals from human rights to how long we would suspend groups for us to abolish the death the registration? We are simply penalty but because we have felt saying that it should be suspended as a country that it works for us until the Act is amended and the we have stuck by it. Allow me to membership numbers that we are read it Mr Chairman, ‘No person complaining about are increased. shall be deprived of his or her life Mr Chairman we all know that intentionally safe in the execution the registration of these churches of the sentence of a court’. is governed by the Societies’ When the court decides that a Act Cap: 18:01. This issue is person deserves to be hanged for of real concern and just two their crime the sentence can be years back we heard about one enforced even if that person has church which refused to allow its a right to life. members to take their children for Mr Chairman, I some immunization as they said it was Dikgosimentioned section 3 against their beliefs. That is why of the Constitution and with we are saying that let us halt the

59 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion registration of new churches and country. How many Batswana look into this Act because it does Priests are there in other not help to continue registering countries? I heard one Member churches whilst we are trying to saying that I did not disclose the come up with ways of improving name of the Pastor I was talking the Law. I would also like to about who earns P50, 000 and clarify that we are talking about I did not do so deliberately the registration of churches and because the Rules of Procedure, not a particular church as the Rule 18 (1) does not allow me to other Member said. We are not do that. However whether I have talking about the Pentecostal disclosed the name or not is not churches and we are not fighting the issue but the fact remains that with the followers of those such a Pastor exists. We cannot churches as we have also been just sit back and not do anything saved and we want to continue about this issue only because we saving others through the word are saying that the Bible says we of God. We do acknowledge that must contribute whereas we can every Motswana has a right to see that people are exploiting worship where they choose to others in the name of God. With however I was appealing to us to those words I thank you Mr look at what is happening around Chairman as well as the Members us and see if at all it is working who debated on this motion. for us. If at all there are ways MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI through which the situation can KGARI III): Thank you Kgosi. be improved, then by all means We have come to the stage we should come up with ways whereby we should find out who of improving. Mr Chairman agrees with this motion or not. earlier on I pointed out that the whole of this chamber is enough Question put and the House was to make four churches. I am not divided as follows: sure who will be the Priest of the other church as I will be the Archbishop of mine. I am not disputing the fact that Priesthood is a calling but the question that I constantly have to ask is whether the Nigerians are called to come and preach in this

60 Monday 24th January, 2011 Halting Churches Registration Motion

No Name of Member Aye No Abstain Absent 1. Kgosi Boiditswe √ 2. Kgosi Esterhuizen √ 3. Kgosi Gaborone √ 4. Kgosi Gaoonwe √ 5. Kgosi Garebakwena √ 6. Kgosi Kahiko √ 7. Kgosi Kgamane √ 8. Kgosi Kgari III √ 9. Kgosi Lempadi √ 10. Kgosi Lotlamoreng √ 11. Kgosi Machilidza √ 12. Kgosi Malema √ 13. Kgosi Masunga √ 14. Kgosi Mmualefhe √ 15. Kgosi Moeti √ 16. Kgosi Monnaathebe √ 17. Kgosi Montshiwa √ 18. Kgosi Moremi √ 19. Kgosi Moroka √ 20. Kgosi Moseki √ 21. Kgosi Ndzonga √ 22. Kgosi Ramokone √ 23. Kgosi Ramokwena √ 24. Kgosi Potsoeng √ 25. Kgosi Seboko √ 26. Kgosi Seeletso √ 27. Kgosi Seemeko √ 28. Kgosi Malope √ 29. Kgosi Sekwenyane √ 30. Kgosi Sinvula √ 31. Kgosi Telekelo √ 32. Kgosi Tshipe √ 33. Kgosi Toto √ 34. Kgosi Xao √ Total 17 11 1 5

61 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

MR CHAIRMAN: According TELEPHONE to the numbers that I have been INSTALLATION AT given by the Secretary those who MOGAPINYANA, agree are 17, those who disagree DAMUCHOJENAA AND are 11, there is 1 Member who KGAGODI CUSTOMARY abstained and 5 are absent. So COURTS the ‘Ayes’ have it. KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA Question put and agreed to. REGION): asked the Minister ADJOURNMENT of Local Government when he intends to install telephone at The House accordingly adjourned Mogapinyana, Damuchojenaa at 3.46 p.m. until Tuesday 25th and Kgagodi Customary courts. January 2011, at 9.30 a.m. ASSITANT MINISTER OF Tuesday 25th January, 2011 LOCAL GOVERNMENT THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. (HON RAMMIDI): Thank (THE CHAIRMAN in the you Mr Chairman. I wish you a Chair) happy New Year and please pass P R A Y E R S my compliments of the New Year to Kgosi Malope II. In the * * * * coming financial year we are CHAIRPERSON’S going to install telephones at the REMARKS Damuchojenaa Customary Court. MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI Unfortunately Mogapinyana and LOTLAMORENG II): Kgagodi Customary Courts were Good Morning Honourable not included in the coming financial Members, Honourable Minister year because of insufficient funds. Mokaila, Honourable Motsumi, We have planned to only connect Honourable Rammidi as well telephones in the Courts of Record. as the other members of staff In the meantime Mogapinyana present. I welcome you to our and Kgagodi Courts will utilise meeting and I hope you are doing the phones at the Maokatumo well. This is the second day of Customary Court. Thank you. our meeting and we shall start KGOSI SEELETSO: Thank you with the questions. For those I Mr Chairman. When the Minister did not see yesterday I wish a says they will be connected next happy New Year. Thank you. year does he mean in 2012 or QUESTIONS FOR ORAL he is referring to 2011 since the ANSWER 62 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer question was supposed to be 2006). However, my Ministry is answered in 2010? currently consulting with a view to reinstate Phane so that it can HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: be regulated again. I thank you, Thank you. I am referring to the Mr Chairman. 2011/2012 financial year. KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank KGOSI SEELETSO: Thank you Mr Chairman. I want to you Mr Chairman. caution the Minister that people UNCONTROLLABLE who harvest the Mophane worm TRADE OF MOPHANE no longer give it a chance to WORM complete its life cycle so that it can continue to multiply. They KGOSI BOIDITSWE harvest it at the larva stage when (SEROWE REGION): asked it is not yet fully grown. Someone the Minister of Environment, told me that some people come Wildlife and Tourism if he is from South Africa to harvest aware of the uncontrollable trade Phane in this country. Are you of Mopani worm as it is harvested aware of these incidents? before it matures if so, what measures does he intend to put in MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable place to address this problem. Minister, is the Mophane worm classified under animals? MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE HONOURABLE MOKAILA: AND TOURISM (HON Thank you Mr Chairman. MOKAILA): Good Morning Mophane worm is classified Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I under the veldt products. When am aware that there are some we declared in 2007 that Mophane Phane harvesters who engage worm should be protected by the in unsustainable harvesting Law we wanted to avert these methods, such as harvesting occurrences. Unfortunately when before the Phane matures. Batswana complained to their Members of Parliament I was As you might be aware, in 2007 forced to remove the worm from Phane was removed from the the Act. As I am speaking to you Statutory Instrument No. 89 of a Cab Memo has been released 2006 – Agricultural Resources to request the Cabinet to review Conservation (Utilization of the resolution that Mopani worm Veldt Products) Regulations should be removed from the (Published on 1st December,

63 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

Act and allow me to reinstate it ASSISTANT MINISTER OF mainly because of the reasons LOCAL GOVERNMENT that people no longer allow the (HON RAMMIDI): Thank worm to reach its life cycle and you Mr Chairman. Allow me to they harvest it whilst it is not clarify to the House that it has fully grown. Thank you. never been the duty of the Local Police officers to collect debts. KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank It was something that they were you Mr Chairman and the instructed to do but their job Honourable Minister. I wish you descriptions did not state that success when you meet with the they should do that. Ever since Cabinet because these Mopani the Local Police was merged with worm harvesters set up large Central Police we employed what camps and when they disperse we call the Court Bailiffs whose they leave the area unclean and duty is to collect debts and to this spreads diseases as there are auction confiscated goods. In the no health facilities in those areas. financial year of 2009/2010 they Thank you. managed to collect around P3, COLLECTION OF 199,955.09 which were collected OUTSTANDING DEBTS from all the Tribal Administration offices. This money was from KGOSI BOIDITSWE the Court fines being P433, (SEROWE REGION): asked 989.90; and compensatory fines the Minister of Local Government amounting to P2, 675,965.19. to state:- Thank you, Sir. i) What measures have been MR CHAIRMAN: I beg to differ put in place to collect with you Honourable Minister outstanding debts since the where you mentioned that re-deployment of the Local collecting debts was not one of the Police officers to Botswana duties of the Local Police officers. Police Service; I would like to point out that the ii) If any money was collected Local Police Act stated that the during the 2009/2010 officers were supposed to follow financial year; and the instructions given by the iii) How much was collected Kgosi and one of the instructions during the 2009/2010 was such that when people had financial year. been fined then the officers were supposed to collect those fines.

64 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank can be able to show that they are you Mr Chairman. Since the Government employees because Minister is saying that collecting currently they do not have debts was not the duty of the anything to use? officers then what plans has he HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: put in place to handle collection Thank you. I am grateful for of debts? These Court Bailiffs Kgosi’s advice. I took it that that the Minister has been all the public servants possess talking about who are going to identity cards after Minister perform that duty as one of the Motsumi insisted that each requirements, how well prepared officer should have one. If at all are they to carry out those the Court Bailiffs do not have assignments? Thank you. them then it can be looked into HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: or perhaps Kgosi was suggesting I am not sure if I will be able that they should be different from to successfully answer Kgosi’s those of the other Government question because I do not officers? If that is the case then understand it. I believe that the the issue can be looked into at the only preparation that we can make Ministry. Thank you. now would be to correct the Law MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. and accommodate the clause that Perhaps to make things simple, they should collect fines. There we should give them the uniform are also limitations when it comes that was used by the Local Police to resources needed when they go officers. to collect those fines but we shall continue to look for money to KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you buy those but otherwise the Law Mr Chairman. Is the Minister allows them to collect debts. aware that there used to be six to seven Local Police officers in a KGOSI SEELETSO: Thank Kgotla, but currently each Kgotla you Mr Chairman. Does the has been given only one Court Minister realise that when one Bailiff? How is that one person is a debt collector there has to going to perform tasks that were be some form of identification to done by six people? authenticate that they are indeed Government employees. Does HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: the Minister not see it necessary That is true Kgosi; the police for the Court Bailiffs to have officers were plenty but their sole these identifications so that they purpose was not to collect debts

65 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer only .They also had to arrest have vehicles to transport them search for criminals and even to around as they carry out their arrest them. The Court Bailiffs do duties. What measures have been not have to do all that, however put in place with regards to this as time goes on we shall have to situation? Thank you. consider increasing them. It all MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable depends on the circumstances Members please let us keep our because in some Dikgotla you supplementary questions short. might find a person having collected one debt in the whole HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: year but in others you may find Mr Chairman the resources are the debts overwhelming. Thank always not going to be enough you. and there is never going to be any day where we will say everyone KGOSI MONNAATHEBE: has got everything they need. Thank you Mr Chairman. I That is why the Government has want to first thank the Minister declared that departments should for answering some questions borrow each other vehicles in Setswana because it helps and that means even the Court some of us who are not well Bailiffs can be able to borrow a versed in English to understand vehicle where necessary to go because...... and collect debts. Even though MR CHAIRMAN: Pardon we wish that every Court Bailiff me Kgosi Monnaathebe. Could could be equipped with a vehicle, you please ask a supplementary it might take us a long time to question Sir? execute that because we have economic constraints. Thank you KGOSI MONNAATHEBE: Mr Chairman. Of course Mr Chairman. Let me continue. Could the Minister KGOSI ESTERHUIZEN: explain what transportation the Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Court Bailiffs are going to use Chairman, in one of the remarks to move around and collect these made by the Minister, I heard him debts? I am asking this because saying, “ga ke itse”. “Ga ke itse” the Police Officers had vehicles meaning exactly that, ‘I do not which they used to move know’ but the problem of these around when they were sent on Court Bailiffs is very serious. In these assignments. The Court Bokspits and the whole area, there Bailiffs in this instance do not is no Court Bailiff and there is a

66 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer lot of outstanding compensatory ‘I do not know’ in English. It can fines. I have known for as long as just be used for effect, however I I have been working, that to make have heard Kgosi’s words and I a change will not necessarily will investigate to find out why bring developments. I have the situation is like that in Kgosi’s known that merging the Local area. We had agreed that in the Police and the Central Police will areas where the Kgotla is near the definitely bring about problems police station the officers should and we do have these problems help with the mounting of the flag now. That is why I have learnt but as we all know sometimes that making a difference does not when you try to fix one side, the bring a change. So we are in this other side gets messed up. We problem and even at my court, will however fix everything Mr the flags are not being hoisted Chairman. Thank you. every morning but there is a local KGOSI RAMOKWENA: police station in Bokspits. I have Thank you Mr Chairman. I been asking the Police to come want to point out that the Police and hoist the flags every morning Officers who used to carry out but they do not bother. They say this duty of collecting debts and that it is none of their business. confiscating goods were trained The Minister should see to it that for that so that they could be able all these complications are ironed to follow the Law. Have the Court out. The only person that we as Bailiffs been taken through the the Dikgosi can complain to is the same training so as to perform Minister of Local Government. this duty in a legal manner in The Minister should ask other case there are problems that arise dignitaries to assist him so that during that exercise? We do not this problem is solved, more want situations whereby a Court especially Court Bailiffs. Thank Bailiff can be found having you very much. breached procedure only because MR CHAIRMAN: You heard they are not aware of what the what Kgosi said Honourable Law says. Minister. Do you wish to HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: respond? Mr Chairman, the Court HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: Bailiffs were given the same Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me orientation that was given to the hasten to clarify that, ‘ga ke itse’ in Local Police, however I cannot Setswana does not always mean, ascertain that there can never

67 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer be occasional problems as they that situation so that they can carry out that duty since there intervene. Thank you. are always problems in every KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank job even when people have you. Please insure that there been taught. I also wish to point is a clear arrangement on this out that even as we go to the situation. Thank you. Magistrate Courts and the High Court the Police Officers do not MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable collect fines. There are Deputy Members I informed you Sheriffs who are responsible for yesterday that Kgosi Montshiwa that and their duties are more or has got some problems, his family less related to those of the Court is bereaved and that is why he Bailiffs. Thank you. could not be with us today as they are still making some funeral KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank arrangements. The Secretary has you Mr Chairman. What security requested that question number 4 measures have been put in place should be left out as they are still to protect the Court Bailiffs correcting it and so we shall go to especially when they are going the next question. to collect fines or debts? Thank you. UPGRADING MOGAPINYANA, KGAGODI HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: AND DILORO CUSTOMARY Mr Chairman, I do not think COURTS that the arrangement to provide security can be made by me. I KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA believe that the need for security REGION): asked the Minister will be determined by the of Local Government whether circumstances at that particular his Ministry has any plans to point in time. A person cannot upgrade Mogapinyana, Kgagodi be escorted after collecting P20 and Diloro Customary Courts to for example but if it is a large Headmen of Record level. amount of money then he/she can ASSISTANT MINISTER OF alert the Police of the situation LOCAL GOVERNMENT they are in. That also applies to (HON RAMMIDI): Thank situations where a Court Bailiff you Mr Chairman. There are is attacked by the person whom no plans in place to upgrade they would be collecting the fine the Mogapinyana, Kgagodi and from. He/she can also go to the Diloro Customary Courts to Police and make them aware of Headmen of Record level since 68 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer there is shortage of funds. To at my Ministry to look into all upgrade them would require a lot those Customary Courts and of money since it will mean that find out how many Court Clerks manpower should be increased, each has because I believe that offices should be provided as well some have more Court Clerks as the equipment needed. I do not than it is necessary whilst other mean that we shall not consider Customary Courts do not have upgrading these Customary Courts any Court Clerks. We started as time goes on but whenever the the exercise in October 2010 and resources allow we shall consider we expect to finish by June 2011. upgrading them. Thank you. Perhaps by the end of it we shall take some of the posts and move KGOSI SEELETSO: Thank them to other Customary Courts you Mr Chairman. because maybe some have more SHORTAGE OF COURT staff than the others. Thank you. CLERKS KGOSI SEELETSO: Thank KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA you Mr Chairman. REGION): asked the Minister COST RECOVERY of Local Government: MATTERS AT TRIBAL i) if he is aware that there is ADMINISTRATION shortage of Court Clerks in KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA most Customary Courts; and REGION): asked the Minister of ii) If so, how does he intend to Local Government if he is aware address the situation. that Tribal Administration does not generate revenue like other ASSISTANT MINISTER OF departments from sales permits LOCAL GOVERNMENT and civil cases as a way of (HON RAMMIDI): Thank you recovering costs, if so, how does Mr Chairman. I understand fully the Minister intend to address the that there is shortage of Court situation. Clerks in some Customary Court and it is still difficult for me to ASSISTANT MINISTER OF correct that because of lack of LOCAL GOVERNMENT funds and also one other reason (HON RAMMIDI): Mr is that currently the Government Chairman there is some revenue has suspended creation of any that is generated by the Tribal new posts in the Public Service. Administration Department that is However I have instructed those accrued from the licences granted

69 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer to sell cattle which amount to MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you P1 per cow. This money is then Honourable Minister. Even though submitted to the Council offices. you are not the Minister of Lands There is also money accrued from and Housing I am aware that at the Appeal and Civil cases which the Land Boards there is some amounts to P5 as stated under revenue which they generate and Rule 27 of the Customary Court use in their department. Act. Mr Chairman it is true that KGOSI SEELETSO: Thank the revenue is not much but we you Mr Chairman and the should realise that our Customary Honourable Minister. Courts are not necessarily there to make money. They are there LIFTING SUSPENSION to bring resources, peace and OF REGISTRATION OF tranquillity in the community. TRUSTS Thank you. KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH KGOSI POTSOENG: Thank EAST REGION): asked you Mr Chairman. Does the the Minister of Environment, Minister realise that the Court Wildlife and Tourism to state Clerks who make these licences when his Ministry intends to lift which generate the money that the suspension of registration of eventually goes to the Councils trusts. are performing duties that could be MINISTER OF done by the Councils. My question ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE is why is the money not given to AND TOURISM (HON the Tribal Administration? MOKAILA): Mr Chairman the HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: suspension of the registration of Thank you Mr Chairman. I want Trusts is not a decision that was Dikgosi to realise that even if taken by my Ministry. It was done the revenue can remain with the by the Department of Registrar of Tribal Administration, or it can Deeds at the Ministry of Lands and be given to the Councils or the Housing. I am however discussing Police, it all eventually ends up at with the Attorney General that the Government coffers referred the suspension should be lifted to as the consolidated fund where because it is inconveniencing us it will be divided accordingly. as well. Thank you. Overall the most important thing KGOSI MASUNGA: Were the is that these are both Government Members of the community ever duties. Thank you. informed about this suspension 70 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer by the Registrar of Deeds or if not being used. The standards were did the Ministry of Environment, developed by the Ministry of Wildlife and Tourism ever take Local Government and they were the time to explain to people why implemented in January 2009. the suspension was imposed. Apart from that there are Public Service Standards that have HONOURABLE MOKAILA: been developed for Government Thank you Mr Chairman. As I Departments and the Tribal have already explained it was not Administration Department still our call to make this decision. forms part of these departments My Ministry also wishes to and it should follow these register these Trusts especially standards: in the Community Based National Resource Management • Service of Civil Summons (CBNRM), but unfortunately within 7 days the decision was taken without • Hearing of Civil Case within notifying us. I am discussing 5 hours with the Attorney General so that she can consider lifting this • Delivery of judgement within suspension. Thank you. 10 minutes KGOSI MASUNGA: I do Apart from that we should meet understand, Thank you. with the staff at our Dikgotla and formulate our service standards SERVICE DELIVERY looking at the workload. It does STANDARDS AT TRIBAL not mean that if the Public Service ADMINISTRATION standards state that something KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA should be done within 7 days you REGION): asked the Minister cannot reduce those days when of Local Government when you do your own standards, if Tribal Administration is going to you feel that you can do the job develop and implement Service in a less amount of time. Delivery Standards. KGOSI SEELETSO: Thank ASSISTANT MINISTER OF you Mr Chairman. I want to know LOCAL GOVERNMENT if the members of staff who are (HON RAMMIDI): Thank you supposed to be adhering to these Mr Chairman. The Department standards know them. I am asking of Tribal Administration has long because it is like they are only come up with Service Delivery aware of those used at the District Standards that we hope are Commissioner’s office whilst 71 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer the Tribal department does not MR CHAIRMAN: If the have its own localised standards. Minister has complaints about The members of staff have even his Ministry then it means we attributed that they are not there. have a problem, I thought that we were the only ones who were Does the Minister realise that complaining. There is a Setswana even though he mentions that the saying that “e re o bona di eja standards are there they are not maaparankwe o itse gore rona adhered to? There are instances batlhanka re sule”, it means where someone can wait for a exactly what is happening. particular service for a long time only to get it when they have KGOSI SEELETSO: Mr almost given up. For example, Chairman, I am grateful for the there is someone who retired last Minister’s response and also year in September and up to now that he is aware of some of the they have not been given their problems because he will now benefits. Where is the evidence have to go and look into it. of the Service standards there? Please let us hasten to address the problems. Thank you. HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. I have RECOMMENDATIONS OF realised that Kgosi is talking SOCIAL VALUES REPORT about the Tribal Administration KGOSI MOREMI Head office here in Gaborone. (BATAWANA): asked the I believe that the staff members Minister for Presidential Affairs know these standards because at and Public Administration to my Ministry there is a booklet brief this Honourable House that stipulates these standards but if the recommendations of the unfortunately it is not everyone social values report are being who uses that booklet. I met implemented. with the Director this morning and I reminded her that some of MINISTER FOR the responses that have long been PRESIDENTIAL given in the House have not been AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC implemented up to now and so ADMINISTRATION (HON even Kgosi’s question has made MOTSUMI): Thank you Mr me aware of this problem and I Chairman. Good morning to will look into the situation to see if you all and compliments for the people really follow the standards New Year. The Social Values as they are. Thank you. Report had proposed a lot of

72 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion recommendations which fell under that some Members indicated different departments and stake that they spoke to the Minister holders. The implementation of about it. I tried to talk to the these recommendations is a huge person who had suggested that I process which will not yield results should withdraw the motion but within a short period of time. It is I did not get anything from him a process that is going to take a and so I have brought it back while to bear fruits since change since I did not get any answers of behaviour is not something concerning this issue. This that can happen overnight and so motion talks about the Headmen it will take some time before we of Arbitration who are on B3 can notice any major changes. scale who are paid an allowance. The recommendations are being I do not believe that it is fair for implemented by the relevant someone to work their whole departments however some life being paid an allowance. have not been implemented yet When we look at the Bogosi Act, because they have to be prepared paragraph 6, it explains what can for by the responsible people so be done if there is a vacancy in that they can be understood well. the Bogosi of a tribe. When we Thank you. consult the Conditions of Service for the Headmen of Arbitration PERMANENT which were written on the EMPLOYMENT 11th June,2007, ref TA/ 3/2/12 FOR HEADMEN OF ii (53)”, they explain in full ARBITRATION detail that someone becomes a Motion Headman of Arbitration because of their birthright; having been KGOSI KAHIKO III born a Kgosi. The individual (GHANZI WEST REGION): assumes that seat after being Thank you Mr Chairman. I stand voted by the people of his/her here to bring a motion that reads ward after having followed the “That this Honourable House correct procedures as paragraph request Government to employ 6 says in that Act. Everyone who Headmen of Arbitration who are is currently holding this position on B3 allowance on a permanent was subjected to those conditions and pensionable basis”. Mr and as such they are rightfully Chairman this motion was once there and so that is why we have brought to this House but it to see to it they should be legible was withdrawn reasons being to get terminal benefits at the end

73 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion of their reign as currently that is because the Government affords not the case. You sometimes have to pay everyone who works for to wonder why it is that they do it and it has employed many not get these benefits whilst they people. It is therefore up to the do all the duties that the other Government to see to it that these Dikgosi perform. I request this people get what is due to them. Mr House to support me on this Chairman I appeal to the House to motion so that this situation support me on this motion so that can be corrected. All the cases we can be able to give enough that come to our Dikgotla come reasons as to why this should be from their Dikgotla and they are the case. the ones who deal with them at From the paper that I was reading the initial stage. By the time the from they are supposed to dress cases arrive at our Dikgotla they smart and look professional just would have dealt with most of the like any public officer. That is work, what we do is just to pass why I am saying that they are judgement. This then implies supposed to be taken care of just that the Government has realised as the Law intends. This also their worth and that is why I am applies to resources they need for advocating that the Government them to do their job effectively. should consider employing them Those are the reasons that I on permanent basis. give Mr Chairman and I hope I feel that this is not in conjunction the Honourable Members will with the United Nations, Universal support me on this motion to get Declaration on Human rights, the Government to see our point. and also looking at it alongside Thank you. the sixth paragraph and the first KGOSI TSHIPE section of the constitution of this (MAHALAPYE REGION): country. We are exploiting these Thank you Mr Chairman. I people because at the end of the believe that I will not be long day there is nothing to show for in my debate as the mover has their efforts. Everyone who works already said a great deal about for the Government is aware that this motion. I support this motion when they retire they are going to because it appears like at times get something. Somebody might when decisions are made some say that they are a large number things tend to be overlooked. and therefore the Government Some of the Headmen of cannot afford it and I beg to differ Arbitration lead villages and

74 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion not Dikgotla, for example the person from working for two days village of Setsile in the Central in a week. You might discover District is lead by a Headmen that when such decisions were of Arbitration who is paid an made not enough research was allowance. The Tewane village carried out to establish a lot of is also led by a Headman of things, perhaps the decision was Arbitration. In other places they only made in Gaborone without are responsible for customary taking the necessary effort to go courts that are larger than some the villages to research and ask which are in big villages and the relevant stakeholders on how you find that in those places this issue can be approached. they are still paid an allowance There was a time when we were whilst Dikgosi who are in the told that there are not enough big villages are paid a salary. resources and that is why the For example when you take the Headmen of Arbitration are Tshikinyega ward in Mahalapye, paid an allowance. Apparently it has got over 7000 people but the Government figured out that the Headman of Arbitration there in order to be able to pay the is paid an allowance and this just large number of the Headmen goes on to show how unfair some of Arbitration then they should things are. Somebody might say pay them an allowance instead that they are paid an allowance of a salary. When you look into because it was considered that this arrangement though, it they work for only two days in places them at a disadvantage in a week and I still repeat that this the long run although at first it issue might not have been looked might have appeared as if it was into seriously. As I explained an advantage since the system before some of these Headmen absorbed them in large numbers. of Arbitration are responsible for I support this motion and appeal large wards and you cannot say to the Government to look into that such a person can work two this issue seriously. Thank you. days in a week as people need KGOSI RAMOKWENA services every day. When the (MAUN REGION): Thank Government officials or Members you Mr Chairman. The mover of Parliament want to come of the motion has put it well and and address the community that has put across very important person has to be there to help to points. It is surprising that some organise that. Those are some the people are given allowances. reasons that would prevent that

75 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion Since they are given money, the The Government should look same money that is paid to them into office accommodation; we in allowances, I do not think to cannot have homes being turned put them on the payroll would into offices. I have used Kgosi be more expensive than what Moeti as an example because he they are already getting, Mr has sacrificed part of his house Chairman. At times we may end as an office. It would be unfair up using words which are not for a youthful person like him to acceptable due to the pain we are sacrifice so much for the country feeling. It seems people are being and leave in old age without any undermined. I am one of the compensation. victims, Mr Chairman, though Honourable Minister, look into I was employed before others. this matter with compassion and A good example would be my fairness. We are aware that the younger brother, Kgosi Moeti, Government is going through an I know he will not mind being economic recession and we do used as an example because I am not dispute the fact that there is telling the truth. He uses part of no money. All we are saying is, his house as his office. since their allowances are equal At one point the Honourable to our salaries, they should be Minister referred to us as employed on permanent and ‘Borralekgotla’ but we perform pensionable basis, so that their duties that surpass that of standard of living could be Rralekgotla. Even though improved as well. recording is not part of our duties, In conclusion Mr Chairman, we end up doing it. We have lots I once asked the Honourable of paper and office work to deal Minister how he would feel if with Mr. Chairman. We cannot one Kgosana was to pass on and turn down the community as they he was told there are no resources expect us to assist them. At our to bury him. He said “I would main Dikgotla, they experience not be happy about it”. You were the same problem as they are right, it would be an unpleasant overwhelmed by the work load. thing. I therefore support Kgosi The Honourable Minister once Kahiko’s motion. It has shown stated that we do not do any paper that he knows exactly where work nor facilitate the filling we want to be in terms of the in of Omang documents, but it standard of living for other is the opposite Mr Chairman. people. Honourable Minister,

76 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion we envy people who are living Headmen of Arbitration earn, they comfortably and have acquired are far below. The Government certain things for themselves. has found it fit to absorb the We understand that we cannot industrial class employees on all be equal. However, if there is permanent and pensionable basis something that could be done to after considering certain factors. assist others, it should be done to I wonder why the same cannot improve their living conditions. be done for Bogosi. Botswana Thank you Mr Chairman. has long been led by Dikgosi even before independence. After PROCEEDINGS independence, Dikgosi handed SUSPENDED FOR TEA over to politicians to run the MR CHAIRMAN: Let us be country. seated Honourable Members. I Mr Chairman, I agree with Kgosi welcome you once again to this Kahiko III when he says that session. When we adjourned we some Dikgosi are overworked, agreed on the time that we were they are treated like slaves. We going to take for tea break. We may appear to be using harsh are always reminded that we words but that is the truth. We should all be seated when the are not saying their salaries Chairman’s Procession arrives, should be upgraded, all we are not to be seen outside like it was saying is, continue paying them the case today. Anyway, let us the same amount of money as the move on with our Order Paper. allowances they are getting but Kgosi Ramokwena was on the as permanent and pensionable floor when we adjourned. employees. Honourable Members KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA getting allowances appear to be REGION): Thank you Mr working for a different employer Chairman. We should support other than the Government. They Kgosi Kahiko’s motion. Mr. cannot even get loans because Chairman, I do not understand banks need advice slips when why Headmen of Arbitration they apply for loans. They need who are paid allowance cannot to deduct loan payments from be employed on permanent and their salaries. That is why we pensionable basis. They earn say it is tantamount to slavery, more than some of the public Mr Chairman. We are past servants here, some of our clerks the stage where we get paid do not earn the amount of money through envelopes like herdmen.

77 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion Nowadays we are supposed to have heard some disturbing news insure those herdmen but when regarding their progression. We it comes to the insurance of a have heard that when a permanent Headman of Arbitration, there is and pensionable headman of nothing. This is a heartbreaking arbitration passes away or retires, situation Mr Chairman that is those who succeed him/her will why we kneel down and beg be paid an allowance, what is for this. I am copying from The that? Why is a person on payroll Deputy Speaker of the National being succeeded by a person on Assembly whom I have seen in the an allowance? Let us not have a House saying: “I kneel down in lengthy debate on this motion. I request”. What is different when think we have said it all. Thank it comes to Bogosi institution? you Mr Chairman. Cleaners, messengers and MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you drivers have been absorbed into Honourable Members, I am not the permanent and pensionable saying that we should not debate cadre, but when it comes to but we should consider the fact Bogosi, it is impossible. Without that other members want to being rude Mr. Chairman, there debate as well. is a Setswana saying which goes once you have assisted some KGOSI BOIDITSWE people, instead of thanking you, (SEROWE REGION): Thank they would rather insult you. you Mr Chairman I will be brief (tanki ya motho yo montsho ke Mr Chairman. Let us not deny mmaago sennanne kana rraago others a chance to debate this sennanne.) Is this how we are motion. It is the first time this appreciated? After all that Bogosi has been presented as such, on has done for the nation, they do previous sittings; it was presented not get appreciation, everyone as questions, so, we should allow is appreciated except them. Let all to air their views. I have this motion pass Honourable noted the Chairman’s request, so Minister. Let this be an indicative I will be time conscious. I was of how unhappy we are about the just addressing those who seem treatment accorded to Headmen impatient. Mr Chairman, what of Arbitration. They are the ones Kgosi Seeletso has been saying is who deal with cases before they really touching. It is said that when reach us. Let the Headmen of a Headman of Arbitration passes Arbitration on B3 allowance be on or retires, their successor is permanent and pensionable. We going to get an allowance even

78 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion though the Kgotla is gazetted. you Mr Chairman, that we should When a Kgotla is gazetted, the let this motion be debated so that person who runs it should get we get ideas and suggestions on the benefits accordingly. This is how we can deal with this issue. a shame Mr Chairman. We have Those who spoke before me have been presenting this issue through debated the motion so well and so questions; the Ministry should far a lot has been said, but let us have addressed it urgently. The all debate this motion. Thank you reason why it now comes as a Mr Chairman. motion is because we are doing KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI what doctors normally do when REGION): Thank you Mr an expectant mother is due but Chairman. Let me point out that the labour pains do not come, everything that is debated in this the pains are induced for the House can only come back to this process to run. We did not want House after 12 months. I therefore it to happen that way. Since it is would like to inform the Minister clear that there is a grievance, it that if nothing is done to address should be addressed. We should this issue; he should expect this not just stick to the ancient way motion after every 12 months. of doing things even when it is Headmen of Arbitration work 2 not working. I do not understand days in a week but if you read 3.1 the logic which was used Mr. of their hours of work, it states Chairman. I would like to know that, “Headmen of Arbitration the person who brought the motion shall however assist members at that particular sitting. It cannot of the public at all times.” When just happen, someone proposed we look at it objectively, the 2 that the B3 scale be phased out stipulated days do not apply as and introduced an allowance the assistance of the community instead. I do not wish to debate is a 24 hour thing. Whether it is this motion for a long time as a Sunday, a public holiday or this pains me Mr Chairman. In whatever the case, Headman conclusion, let me point out that of Arbitration is needed. It is we are being used especially therefore disheartening to hear those who serve in these Dikgotla. that such an important person in The nation is satisfied with the the community is being treated services we provide to them. like that Mr Chairman. Moving We serve them diligently and it on Mr Chairman, the Government does not make sense for us to be states that a Headman of treated this way. Let me appeal to

79 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion Arbitration is a public servant. been told that the Headmen of It states clearly that Headmen of Arbitration are too many, if they Arbitration are not supposed to be are to be absorbed as permanent associated with anything political. and pensionable, it will be an All these aspects cover permanent expensive exercise. At the same and pensionable officers Mr time these people are of great Chairman. It goes on to say that, importance to the Government. “a Headman of Arbitration shall When the Government says not hold any office in any political that a Headman of Arbitration party or association, or be an active shall not hold any office in any member thereof”. It is referring to political party or association, or the same Headman of Arbitration be an active member thereof, it whom the Government is shows that they are important saying is not an employee of the employees. Their importance Government who can get benefits should be appreciated in all like other Civil Servants. I appeal respects; their work and benefits to the Minister to appoint a task should reflect that. Yes, we have force/commission which will been told that others do not have consult the whole country and certain educational qualifications. look into the Dikgosi’s complaint If we remember well, Bogosi that Headmen of Arbitration are does not need any educational not treated fairly. They should qualifications, it is hereditary. be treated like Civil Servants. We once suggested that a person Maybe the commission will should have a standard 7 certificate bring better results than the one as minimum requirement, but he had, which recommended that the Government insisted on the Headmen of Arbitration should heredity aspect, saying that we be given allowances only. I want can not deny them their throne the Government to see where even if they do not have the we are coming from. Consider a standard 7 certificate, or even the better way of treating Headmen standard 3? I am appealing to the of Arbitration. These people can Government to consult with us be absorbed in the permanent and to come up with measures that pensionable cadre as it has been could be put in place to absorb done with those who were on these people into permanent and A3 salary scale. Those who are pensionable employment. This in the A3 cadre are three to four is a disheartening situation Mr. times the number of Headmen Chairman. As Kgosi Seeletso of Arbitration. This house has has said, we fall on our knees

80 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion before you and plead with the supervisees. If our Dikgosi are Government to consider assisting not aware or do not understand Headmen of Arbitration. We voted this issue, they should find time for you so that you can listen to fully understand and probably to our grievances. They should embrace it since it addresses be remunerated accordingly progression of their officers. Mr for what they do and not be Chairman, Arbitration constitutes denied what is due to them yet about 95 percent of the whole they perform the duties that are Bogosi institution. In an area like performed by a permanent and Maun, Record is around 10 to 15 pensionable officer. We know that percent and then about 85 percent according to tradition, the child are Arbitration (Dikgosana). In who works hard deserves better most cases majority of Dikgotla than others Mr Chairman. In this are headed by Headmen of case, all matters are addressed Arbitration, about 200 with only at Headman of Arbitration level one Kgosi. In most cases, about before any other person can be 75 percent of the community do involved. They do most of the not know the Kgosi in person but work before it comes to us. Take only by name, most of the time these issues and discuss them they are assisted by Headmen of with your superior, let them know Arbitration. These are the people the challenges that we have in who do most of the work yet they Tribal Administration concerning receive low payments in the form Headmen of Arbitration. I thank of allowances. you Mr Chairman. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF KGOSI MOETI II LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SPECIALLY ELECTED): (HON RAMMIDI): On a point Thank you Mr Chairman. of clarification Mr. Chairman. I Honourable Members have have been listening to the debate debated this matter at length and attentively but I somehow got have highlighted very crucial confused when we started talking aspects. This does not only affect about our tradition and the way Headmen of Arbitration but the we do things in our culture. I whole Bogosi institution and would like to understand if the even Dikgosi in general. Let me nomenclature Ralekgotla does therefore appeal to all Dikgosi to not form part of the debate today take this matter importantly as Mr. Chairman. Maybe it is not Headmen of Arbitration are their used countrywide; it is only used

81 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion in Ngwaketse. I take it that we are to leave their studies or jobs in talking about Ralekgotla but at the which they are trained and could same time when we keep referring be earning better, to claim their to Kgosana, it gets a bit confusing. seat of Bogosi due to conflicts Thank you Mr. Chairman. which at times surround Bogosi when one is not there. It is better KGOSI MOETI II: What I to be at a position of permanent wanted to point out is that Dikgosi employment rather than working should have a say on this matter so for an allowance. Like Kgosi that their supervisees, Headmen rightfully pointed out, one would of Arbitration are employed get the arbitration seat at an early on permanent and pensionable age but then when he/she retires, basis. Arbitration forms the he/she does not get anything. largest percentage of the Bogosi institution in the sense that in Another thing is that it is not easy most events such as funerals, to upgrade a Kgotlana within the Dikgosana attend on behalf of village. It is always easy to do Dikgosi. It is therefore important that with the one which is outside to enhance the whole image of a particular village. When one is the Bogosi institution so that employed on permanent basis, people can understand the role then it is better than staying in and responsibility of the whole that particular Kgotlana for a institution such that whatever the longer period while one is only community perceives about them getting an allowance. reflects back to the institution, Mr. Chairman, this issue has that is why I mentioned that it is brought a lot of misunderstanding imperative for Dikgosi to have an between Headmen of Arbitration input on this matter, as the whole and Dikgosi. At times it appears thing affects Bogosi in general. like Headmen of Arbitration are They should see to it that the disobedient because they are matter bears fruit as this will bring disgruntled and always have some improvement to Bogosi. unresolved issues. If those issues Arbitration forms part of Bogosi were resolved, they would be Honourable Members because obedient and productive. I will most of them are Dikgosi still go back to the dignity that I by birth. If the Constitution talked about concerning Bogosi permitted, some would not even in relation to Arbitration. Like be Dikgosana, they would be the course instructor at Botswana Dikgosi. Some are compelled National Productivity Center

82 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion (BNPC) had noted, that there are recently in Tunisia. There were instances when instead of Kgosi some changes brought about by to be at their Kgotla or office, people on the ground because of they would rather be at some a minor misunderstanding. We shebeen. That on its own reflects do not want that situation with that somehow the job is not done. Dikgosi or even Dikgosana and This is a result of this confusion they should not be put in that whether one is employed or not. state. In most cases, one does not feel HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: any obligation to do that particular On a point of clarification, Mr job. In most cases there will be Chairman. I want to know what no signed documents that bind Kgosi’s understanding of solving that person to a certain Kgotla or this issue would be. The way office. Mr Chairman, I personally Kgosi is putting it, when you are do not recall if I have signed given a response that you do not any documents with regards to want, you lose hope and end up my rights and obligations or using other means which may conditions of service. This shows not be pleasant to show your that Arbitration does not have disgruntlement. This would mean any direction, for lack of a better that when I bring a case before word. It is not clear with regards Kgosi, and I am not satisfied with to the conditions of service, rights the judgment he passed, then or even the obligations like I have I lose hope and resort to using said. Currently we need certain other means of which I believe equipment for us to carry out will give me the judgment that I our duties well but it is not clear want. Thank you Sir. where we should get them. We do not have any guiding tool to lead KGOSI MOETI II: Mr us on the equipments we should Chairman, every matter has its have but at the same time we resolution. I mentioned that have to assist our communities. example in passing; I am not In conclusion Mr. Chairman, encouraging anyone to do that. as word of advice, do not leave I wanted to give an example of people who have influence in the what losing hope can lead to. nation disgruntled for a long time. Even if Dikgosi lose hope, it You should hasten to listen to would not lead to a situation like them and resolve issues amicably. the one I gave as an example. Mr Chairman, I would like to give Moving on with my debate, when an example about what happened people who have influence on the

83 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion community remain disgruntled, Chairman even though others it may trickle down and influence feel that I should leave sections society as well. out but this time around I will not focus on any section but HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: rather on the motion at hand. On a point of clarification, Mr Through you Mr Chairman, all Chairman. the members who have debated, MR CHAIRMAN: I do not like support the motion. That is that dialogue. why I would request that the question be put when I complete HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: my debate. Mr Chairman, I Pardon me Mr Chairman. My have not heard of any person in worry is that the examples this country who works under given by the leadership may be conditions similar to the ones perceived wrongly by the nation. we are talking about. Working I do not think it is appropriate for the Government and getting to say that issues of people who an allowance only, means they have influence in the society must cannot have a pension. Pension be resolved the way they want is a form of investment for our them to. We do not have to be like families. Pension will prove that one country where Members of we served the nation; we were Parliament increased their salaries not engaged on temporary basis, three times because they have the as casual labourers or like in influence and powers to amend mines when there is a shutdown. the law. Is this the procedure we We are talking about leaders, Mr want to follow because we have Chairman. You will agree with influence on the society? Thank me that these people play a very you Mr Chairman important role in our society, I KGOSI MOETI II: Mr believe even the Minister knows Chairman, there are many ways that there would be challenges of resolving this issue. The other if they were not there. Their route would be going to court, importance should be recognized which would be unfortunate for by acceding to their request. a straight forward case like this I do not understand why that one. Thank you Mr Chairman. cannot be done. I do not want KGOSI SEEMEKO to use some words which were (SPECIALLY ELECTED): once used in this House way Thank you Mr Chairman. I back. Maybe the government has will present three issues Mr noticed that the number is high 84 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion and therefore they do not want to procedure to be followed, that incur costs. We are talking about should be done Mr. Chairman. the welfare of people, leaders for However, we do not have to that matter. protect the office instead of the interests of the people. The most I concur with the Minister as he important thing for everyone noted that we are leaders, we have is dignity, something that His to be exemplary to the nation. Excellency the President is However, they should respond always calling for. This is one to our requests and resolve of the things which show our issues we bring before them. dignity. Mr Chairman, with There is no one in this house those few remarks, I would like who can incite other person to to move that the question be put do wrong things. I also believe as we have debated the motion at that the Government relies on length. Thank you Mr Chairman. Dikgosi including Headmen of Arbitration. I therefore KGOSI MACHILIDZA request that Government should (BOTETI REGION): Thank recognize the importance of you Mr Chairman. I will be these Headmen of Arbitration. brief as well Mr Chairman as It is a sad situation like one you have requested. Honourable Member noted, it is difficult for Members, this is a motion that them to acquire loans from banks we are all aware of and it is a and any other service which case we all know. It now appears require pay slips. There has to like things will not be done the be proof that one is working and way we are used to. We know indeed he is a Kgosi. When the that we are free to debate and pay slip is not available, they air our views in this House, but cannot be given the service they it appears like those who have require. Honourable Minister, it to respond are uncomfortable. is time this matter is looked into. We are democratic; everyone If other people did not see the has the right to speak his/her importance of this, you can see mind. This is not the first time the importance now. this issue regarding Headmen of Arbitration is debated in this In conclusion Mr Chairman, I House yet it has never been know that all Cabinet Ministers resolved. We have had answers here present will discuss this like the International Monetary matter together and concur with Fund (IMF) would say this us on this motion. If there is any

85 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion country is mismanaging funds if are in a position of influence, one these people are employed. The can do anything, like those who other response was that if Local increased their salaries. That one Government was to employ them is not a position of influence, it on permanent and pensionable is total greed and the ordinary basis, the department will take people will question that case. ten years before any recruitment. Mr Chairman, let us debate this These are some of the responses motion. Even though we do not we have been getting when know when we will complete it, we asked for better conditions we will continue to talk about of service for Headmen of it until we get a convincing Arbitration. One Member in response. Other Members have this House pointed out that the highlighted the industrial class Headmen of Arbitration have a cadres who have been absorbed lot of responsibility, that is true. in the permanent and pensionable Even as we speak, membership scheme. Since Government says of this House consists of, among that there are no vacancies where others, Headmen of Arbitration. Headmen of Arbitration could be Government has assigned them a absorbed in, can it not be arranged role in the election of the Members that they be incorporated through of this House. Let us look into the industrial class setup, so that this matter as it forms part of they can also enjoy the benefits? the Constitution of this country. They will swallow their pride Kgosi’s statement was influenced of being Kgosi as long as they by the pain he is feeling. In would be knowing that at the Ikalanga culture, we have a end of the day they will enjoy proverb that says; “ngumba ye the benefits. Is that not possible nlili a i to gagwa shule.” That is Mr Chairman? I will submit a ‘do not sit behind the House of a question in the next sitting to mourning person’. Because of the ask if it is not possible for them pain that the mourning person is to be incorporated through the feeling, he is likely to say a lot of industrial class setup so that things. He is unhappy; he is not they can enjoy pension and other trying to incite other members benefits of being employed. I am whatsoever. It is a shake up, to saying this because, industrial say that they exist and should class cannot be phased out be recognized. I do not want to since upon the formation of any blame the Honourable Minister ministry, they have to be there. that much, he had said that if you

86 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion ASSISTANT MINISTER OF it is falling on deaf ears and if no LOCAL GOVERNMENT resolution is made on this matter, (HON RAMMIDI): Correction, we will continue presenting this Mr Chairman. Thank you Sir. matter before this House. Kgosi Let me remind Honourable Seeletso and Kgosi Potsoeng Members that we no longer have have been talking about kneeling the industrial class cadre; we are down and begging the Minister using the New Public Service Act because he is our superior. In which says they are all public most countries, the Minister is servants. not senior to Kgosi but rather Kgosi is senior to the Minister. KGOSI MACHILIDZA: In Swaziland, no member of the Thank you for that clarification House of Chiefs or Traditional Honourable Minister. That Leaders refers to a Minister decision was taken by people. as his/her leader, even King That clause can be amended to Mswati. It is a set up that is there include Headmen of Arbitration Mr Chairman, but nonetheless it as well among the public servants. differs from country to country. That is the procedure we want This does not match our current followed. Mr Chairman, we setup Mr Chairman as Dikgosi have debated this motion. Let the are leaders of the nation or is it Government consider our request. that we are taking other people’s Upon further consultation some cultures that we no longer would be absorbed and the only recognize our own. I have made barrier could be the age. Most my contribution and urge that of them are old, so, the number this request be attended to. Thank which could be enrolled under you Mr Chairman. pension is not that much. They may look at a certain barrier but KGOSI TELEKELO that will then open the window (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank for those who can qualify. Let you Mr Chairman. I will not take this issue be looked into before long debating this motion. Mr any decision could be taken. Chairman, last year the Minister Most of Dikgosi have aged and if of Labour and Home affairs this setup is implemented maybe went around the country telling the Government will not incur the nation that the Act which any costs. allowed every employee to get a gratuity every five years has been Honourable Members have long changed. He said that there had made this request but it appears

87 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion been a concern regarding some When you tell people that you work employers who were taking some two days in a week as stipulated Batswana for granted. Some of by the conditions of service them would dismiss their workers and at the same time, the same when they were about to complete conditions of service state that the their five year of service so that community should be assisted 24 they do not have to pay them. hours a day, it becomes confusing They have amended the Act in and at times people do not believe such a way that every employee that we are telling the truth. Could gets their package upon leaving this misunderstanding be resolved the service. The Government Mr Chairman. Kgosi Seeletso should lead by example; the Act rightfully pointed out that the does not leave the Government Headmen of Arbitration should outside as an employer. Why is be employed on permanent and it that Headmen of Arbitration pensionable basis as it will not are treated unfairly? Why is cost the Government anything; we it that this law does not bind are not calling for an increment. I the Government? If this Act would be grateful if the Minister does not cover all Government could tell this House that he has employees, then it will not be noted our requests, he will take fair for most of them since this them and consult with the relevant Act applies to all the workers authorities, and that he will get including domestic workers and back to us. If that could happen herdmen. Is the Government then I would know that when this aware that if this allowance issue House advises, those advices are persists, we will not be able to taken into consideration. It would employ domestic workers as we be a shame if after such a lengthy will also say we are paying them debate, the Minister just stands allowances to avoid paying them and tells us that it will not be their benefits when they leave the possible to employ these people service? Honourable Minister on permanent and pensionable look into this matter seriously. basis. Will that be the democracy, The other thing Mr Chairman, when so many Dikgosi have Kgosi Potsoeng mentioned that debated an issue and brought Headmen of Arbitration are said forward the way to resolve it to be working two days in a and for one Honourable Minister week yet they are assisting the to say no, I disagree with you? I community at all times, this is therefore request the Minister to contradictory. note this request, consult on it and

88 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion give us feedback. Thank you Mr word, it is not acceptable. It is Chairman. either the Indians or Arabians but it is considered that when KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH one says ‘lekula’ it constitutes EAST REGION): Thank you Mr to one having said ‘kafir.’ Thank Chairman. I would like to express you Sir. my disappointment on the way things have been handled in this KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank you house Mr Chairman. I believe Mr Chairman and the Minister that the Minister misunderstood for that correction. I withdraw what Kgosi Moeti was talking that word Mr Chairman. I was about. I believe that Bogosi is a not aware, I was just using it as Government in-waiting; it is a we normally do in our Setswana fact. Bogosi once led this country context. and we lived in democracy so MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi we should be able to articulate has withdrawn the word he our views in a transparent and used, therefore it should not be friendly manner. Moving on to recorded by those who record. debate the motion Mr Chairman, I believe it is time for us Africans KGOSI MASUNGA: Moving to drive our Africanism, when on Mr Chairman, other nations we take the Jews, they drive their drive their cultures while the Jewish culture, ‘Makula’ also Africans are against their culture. drive their ‘Sekula’ culture… One wonders when we will drive our own culture rather than ASSISTANT MINISTER OF being concerned and driving LOCAL GOVERNMENT other people’s cultures. That (HON RAMMIDI): On a point is my concern Mr Chairman. I of correction, Mr Chairman. believe Bogosi built this nation. Mr Chairman, I beg to correct It has made a huge contribution, Kgosi that the word he used is so I understand the Honourable not acceptable. It is considered Members’ complaints. We just a derogative word; the word want the Government to consider ‘Sekula’ this request, this is a national HONOURABLE MEMBER: security issue and the Minister is Which word? even aware that where there is a disgruntlement, things may not go HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: accordingly. This is one thing that the word ‘Lekula’ is considered ends up causing trouble as has a derogative and discriminative

89 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion happened in most countries. We issue, the Government should be are not saying that will happen in understanding and acknowledge Botswana. We have participatory that times have changed and that democracy which has proper for one to lead a better life, they structures to run various processes. have to get a loan somewhere. I therefore do not see any reason Kgosi has highlighted that some why we should be worried by these youth abandon their jobs for matters. All we need is for the Bogosi, I personally have taken Government to improve the lives this seat though it was not 100 per of its employees because in Africa cent my choice. I have followed we still have extended family the family tradition of Bogosi. structures. For example, if Kgosi There was no how I could change Ramokwena is paid properly, what was in place but the salary then the salary will improve the that I am getting is far much life of his children and probably better and enough to improve the entire extended family. The my life. However, when we take image of Bogosi is not portrayed Headmen of Arbitration like well Mr Chairman. As Dikgosi, Kgosi Moeti for example, this is a we want to improve this image man who is from a private sector and I doubt if the Government and when you look at what he is has the same understanding of earning, just because he followed the institution like us. Maybe this tradition left by his parents, it has a different understanding and he is now treated this way, which results in developing the it is heartbreaking Mr Chairman. Bogosi institution partially, as it Let both the Government and this is evident in the development of House work together to improve Dikgosi. This issue concerning conditions in the institution of Headmen of Arbitration is a Bogosi. We should not sit alone concern Mr Chairman. At one and amend certain things in the point they convened a meeting. Bogosi institution and come back They consulted the Government to force you to adopt what we on issues that concerned them; the bring. It will not be good for only Chairman of that committee was one party to correct the situation. Kgosi Garebakwena. When people Thank you Mr Chairman. are concerned and take these KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): steps, it shows that they want to Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me find different ways in which their take this time to also debate this problems can be resolved. There motion. Honourable Members should be a compromise on this

90 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion have debated this motion at Department of Social Welfare. length and all has been covered. I also pointed out that it is for We do not have to debate this this reason that in most cases, motion for such a long time Mr Headmen of Arbitration posts Chairman, but statements like, are held by the elderly since the ‘the old Members of this House youth do not see the future in it. do not want to have a say in When one takes up the seat, there this motion and probably do not is no progression and there is no want to assist in this battle for how this could be passed on to the improvement of Headmen young ones if one has to retire. of Arbitration’s conditions,’ We only have old Headmen of probed me to stand up. If there Arbitration since there is nothing is that notion, it should have to attract the youth. been addressed before this Mr Chairman, I do not want to motion was presented so that it take time debating this motion and could be solved. We should have I just want Honourable Members corrected each other’s shortfalls to recall how this motion was if any, and they should not crop presented before in this House. up in this manner in this House. Even though the motions were I do not believe that Dikgosi presented differently, but they cannot support this motion which cover the same issues Mr aims at improving the lives and Chairman. I remember that the conditions of their Headmen of then Minister of Finance and Arbitration. If that is the case Mr Development Planning together Chairman, then we would not be with Honourable Minister fair not to support them as we use Masalila, were not against the them to assist our communities. motion. However, it has since Mr Chairman. in 2008-2009, taken long for the resolution to I brought a motion similar to be executed, the Minister should this one and I do not find any explain why it takes time to distinction between the two. The address this matter. We know that motion covered the same reasons we are going to be told that the we are discussing today. One funds are not permitting. What I of the issues was the fact that can just tell the Minister is that Headmen of Arbitration have as they take turns in attending the been turned into beggars and sittings of Ntlo ya Dikgosi with his even at their funerals, it appears assistants, at times his assistants that they are buried by the are asked questions on the issue

91 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion of Headmen of Arbitration, they this house was 34 as it is the case respond in their own way and now. It is only that some members when supplementary questions were replaced after elections are asked, they become angry. this year; Dikgosi supported the I will not single them out Mr motion Mr Chairman. About four Chairman. months ago, Kgosi Garebakwena requested that the matter be There should be consistency on deferred as it had been presented the answers you give for questions to the Minister. I am still awaiting and motions. It causes confusion the Minister’s response and I when the motion was debated and hope that it will fully satisfy this a certain agreement was reached house. I will end my debate on with the Minister, then when the the note that, I appeal for help next person comes in they provide as I face challenges regarding a totally different response. issues of arbitration everyday Honourable Minister, Dikgosi and it may appear that I am not have stated their grievances and doing anything to assist though you have heard them. My plea I support them. As you are still towards Dikgosi is, to desist from working on this issue Honourable making Headmen of Arbitration Minister, please come and address think that we do not support Headmen of Arbitration in terms them. Let us work hand in hand of their duties at our Dikgotla. with them and we should update Thank you Mr Chairman. them on these issues so that they do not have separate meetings KGOSI MMUALEFHE as Kgosi Masunga has pointed (CHOBE REGION): Thank out. I have always known us to you Mr Chairman and the be cooperative and consultative; Honourable House. I will not I do not know what might have take long debating this motion happened for our leadership to as well Mr Chairman, as all has be in question. Thank you Mr been said and presented to the Chairman. Minister. I therefore, find it fit for me to contribute as well for KGOSI MOREMI there is a Setswana saying which (BATAWANA): Thank you Mr says, ‘moroto wa esi ga o ele.’ I Chairman. I am challenged, just would like to support the motion like Kgosi Seboko. It is true that presented by Kgosi Kahiko III. Kgosi Seboko has presented a As we are in a democratic setting motion similar to this one two Mr Chairman, we are free to air years back. The membership of

92 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion our views without fear. Dikgosi KGOSI GAREBAKWENA have been urged to support this (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): motion. It is true Mr Chairman, Thank you Mr Chairman. I Kgosi is for a territory and here would like to add on to what we are talking about people who other Members have said, more assist Dikgosi in every aspect and so that my name was mentioned for them to shine or not shine, it on several occasions. It is true is the work of the Headman of that the Headmen of Arbitration Arbitration. I have pointed out have been holding consultative that I will not take time to debate meetings with the Minister. this as members have debated During our last meeting with well. Honourable Minister, the him, he said, “I understand we aware that the next office your concerns and what you are to report to is the office of the saying is true but I cannot make Minister for Presidential Affairs a decision alone, I will have to and Public Administration, if we consult with my colleagues, then do not get a convincing response. I will give you feedback.” This However, since you are both is why I had requested Kgosi to here, I believe you have received defer the motion the first time this request. I would like to he brought it to this House. I point out that the people we are had thought that by this time we talking about are tribesmen who would be having the response. cushion all matters that should be Now that the response did not presented to Kgosi, rightfully so. come, we could not ask him to For example, Mr Chairman, for defer it again. On the issue that about one and half years, I have Dikgosi are not supportive on this been trying to get these people matter, it is true that all Dikgosi to be assisted under Self Help who come after Dikgosana Housing Agency (SHHA) to are their supervisors. Since build themselves houses through they understand the conditions the turnkey programme. The only of service for Headmen of thing that has stopped them from Arbitration we expect them to be benefitting is the fact that they concerned... do not have payslips as they get MR CHAIRMAN: We have a allowances. I therefore support section in our Rules of Procedure this motion that they should be that says, “A member shall employed on permanent and restrict his/her observations to pensionable basis. Thank you Mr the subject under discussion Chairman.

93 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion and shall not introduce matters telling him that he is having a irrelevant to that subject”. good life because he is a Kgosi. Kgosi, the subject matter in They were amazed when he this case is that Headmen of told them that he was getting an Arbitration should be employed allowance, I cannot repeat what on permanent and pensionable they said Mr. Chairman, but they basis, let us concentrate on that could not believe that Kgosi who aspect since the one you are is in charge of a Kgotla and the referring to was mentioned by welfare of his community can those who were debating as well. just be paid an allowance. Thank you Kgosi. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: LOCAL GOVERNMENT Thank you. I was not aware (HON RAMMIDI): On a point that issues which had been said of clarification. I have understood by those debating cannot be Kgosi very well and I take it corrected. Thank you for that that the motion requests the correction. In a village setting, Government to employ Headmen there is Kgosi and Kgosana, these of Arbitration on permanent and two people have their dikgotla. pensionable basis. According When they work together and to what I gather around, the the other one is not employed Headmen who are on permanent on permanent basis, then it will basis and those who are on an affect the performance of the allowance get the same amount one who is on permanent basis. of money. Therefore, I would It also ends up affecting the like to know where the issue of image and the performance of wealth comes in Mr Chairman the higher office in the sense that KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Mr according to the set up, Kgosana Chairman, the wealth part comes does the work for Kgosi but at in as a result of having something a lower level. We request that that you live on afterwards, these Headmen of Arbitration something to improve our lives who have Dikgotla, be employed with, where Kgosi can be able to on permanent basis for them to take part of the pension money, be able to support their families which the Government and Mr Chairman. They should have himself have been contributing dignity. Recently I attended towards, to pay off debts. It a funeral with a Headman of does not mean that one has to be Arbitration and people were wealthy because they receive a

94 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion certain salary amount. We want a are today. Now even the cleaners, case where they will be able to get are far much better than Dikgosi. a pension upon their retirement. If We have made our request Mr it was seen as a good development Chairman, and we take it that the to absorb the industrial workers so Minister has noted it. He said he that they can now get pension, why will consult, let this consultation does this arrangement exclude be made and proper feedback Dikgosi Mr Chairman? We do be given to Dikgosi, for the not call for salary increment but betterment of their lives. Thank all we are asking is for them to you Mr Chairman. be employed on permanent basis. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. That is when we will know and I will then give the Minister the understand that the Government floor to respond. still values Dikgosi even after their retirement. The fact is that every ASSISTANT MINISTER OF employer has to be concerned LOCAL GOVERNMENT about the welfare of their (HON RAMMIDI): Thank you employees even after retirement. Mr Chairman. All has been said Our future lies on the employment and the Members have raised of the Headmen of Arbitration on important points even though permanent and pensionable basis other Members were emotional as it will uplift our dignity and on the matter. I believe in the will give the Bogosi institution Setswana saying which goes, the image it deserves. It is true for ‘moseka phofu ya gaabo ga a people to note that Bogosi carries swe lentswe.’(Meaning when one no future. I would not be able is fighting for something which is to convince my child who is a rightfully his, they do not give up) graduate to join Bogosi since they I want Members to understand will complain about this issue, that the nation is listening when even his descendants will do the they debate issues, so they should same. Honourable Members have not be surprised when the nation spoken well and I do not want to presents their issues the same be long. Honourable Minister, way that Dikgosi have presented Dikgosi have entrusted you theirs. They should know that it with their votes, do not sideline would be difficult to reprimand them after all they have done in or advise them against doing that leading this country. They have because there is a saying which led this nation until the political goes, ‘tlhako ya morago e gata fa leadership took over to where we ya pele e gatileng teng.’(Meaning

95 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion that we learn from our elders) could be solved at arbitration Members felt that I was having level. It is for this reason that a dialogue with Kgosi but I was the Government does not find responding to the point that he it necessary for these people to made, that when a situation is be in office from 7:30 to 4:30 not addressed then we may end every week day. Mr Chairman, up with a situation like the one the truth is that the law requires in Tunisia. We cannot deny that the community to be assisted Mr Chairman. We have been 24 hours, but I do not think elected as the Government and people come seeking assistance as such we receive so many throughout the day. This only requests. We address requests means that the community as they come and not because it has to be assisted when there has been brought by people who is need and then the member are in a position of influence. We can carry on with their usual would not be responsible, if we business. There is no one who are threatened by the fact that a would be surprised when they request has been made by people see a member doing his personal who hold a position of influence, duties during office hours. That if we do not grant them what is how the Government perceives they want, they will influence the whole matter Mr Chairman. people against us. That is not When a person is allowed to the procedure Mr Chairman, it break from the office and do would be like a situation where their personal duties then there is a person is holding a gun to my no need for them to be employed head and saying if you disagree on permanent and pensionable with me, I shoot .In that case one basis, they can only be given an would have to be like Jesus, by allowance. When one becomes saying, “ you can go ahead and permanent and pensionable, shoot, I will still hold on to what then it means that they will be I believe is right”. This motion bound by the Public Service Act dates from far back and what we where members will be working can say is that the Government from 7:30a.m – 4:30p.m. That is has a different understanding where poverty sets in, because from Dikgosi on this matter. now one will not have time to The Government recognizes check on their ISPAAD farms Headmen of Arbitration as and other things. When Kgosi volunteers, as people who assist calls, he should find you there at Dikgosi on certain matters which all times. That is our challenge

96 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion Honourable Members. You are what Dikgosi have said and now saying you are not different not take them one by one. Mr from those who are permanent Chairman, like I said earlier on, and pensionable because you are being permanent and pensionable always at work form 7.30am to means that the members are 4.30pm and you never have time guided by the Public Service Act. to do personal things. Is that The other thing is that Headman what you are saying Honourable of Arbitration have not been Members? Mr Chairman, no restricted to a certain age group one can dispute the fact that but depends on the appointment Bogosi has made a contribution by Kgosi and the community of a in the running of this country. particular village. However, when However, I do not think using they go on to become permanent phrases such as ‘ke yone tanki ya and pensionable, there is going Motswana’, (is this the gratitude to come a point where they will we get after such a contribution?) have to retire at a certain age. is right. I do not think we should be saying this to each other when The third reason is that the we are discussing issues. I do not vacancies that we can request for understand phrases like “Bogosi Bogosi are not similar to the ones is a Government in waiting”. of cleaners or drivers. One other I take it that it was agreed that thing that we must be aware of we are a Republic and as such, is that IMF have been informing Bogosi has assigned politicians us that the public service grows to run the country. at a very high rate and they have advised that with time, the public PROCEEDINGS sector will have to be reduced. SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH This is why some of the industrial MR CHAIRMAN: Let me greet class tasks will be privatised with you this afternoon Honourable time, for example, the cleaning Members. The Honourable services. However, I do not think Minister was on the floor that we will privatise Bogosana responding to the motion. I will at any stage. I am saying this therefore call upon the Minister because our communities are to continue with his response. growing and this will compel Kgosi in that particular area to go HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: to the Ministry and request for a Thank you Mr Chairman. I hope Headman of Arbitration post. you will allow me to summarise Currently in our waiting list,

97 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion we have not remunerated some treat them like normal public Headmen of Arbitration who servants. Let us treat them as have performed the duties due to assistants to the Kgosi, who can lack of funds. continue running their personal businesses which can elevate If we want to employ Headmen their lives. I do not think being of Arbitration on permanent permanent and pensionable and pensionable basis, then we would improve their lives will have to compete with other more than getting allowances ministries for the posts. We will be and being able to pursue other forced to consult the Directorate businesses. In conclusion, Mr of Public Service Management Chairman, let me just inform the (DPSM). When DPSM has 50 Honourable members that I have posts for example, then Local heard their grievances, as they Government cannot have all the have already mentioned, this 50 posts to use for Headmen issue has been brought before of Arbitration because other this house on several occasions ministries have to be considered in different forms. Honourable as well. This allowance option is Kgosi Seboko pointed out that easier because it is a question of this was once presented in this do you have the funds to pay that House firstly as a question then person on a yearly basis. a motion, before its presentation When we go on to the permanent today. Kgosi Garebakwena added and pensionable basis, then it is that they also discussed with the not only a question of having to Minister in another forum. I think pay the people on a yearly basis, it is a matter that we can table it is also the fact that we will have before the Cabinet and present to consult with the Ministry of this House’s view on it so that we Finance to make provisions for can get what the Government’s the people employed, even their view is. Maybe we will be told terminal benefits. It is not just a that Dikgosi concerned are question of, we have someone already catered for in terms of who is serving the community, allowances. We are all aware can’t we give him something, that there are some Headmen then we say we have found of Arbitration (Dikgosana and money to pay him monthly. That Boralekgotla) who have not been is why we are saying, we know paid even up to this date, we that they are there as assistants still await finances to pay those to the Kgosi, but let us not allowances. I will not dispute

98 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Permanent Employment for Headmen of Arbitration - Motion the fact that other village setups one another. Thank you Mr have grown such that a Headman Chairman. of Records is needed and we had KGOSI KAHIKO III requested for these posts from (GHANZI WEST REGION): the DPSM, but it did not approve Thank you Mr Chairman. Let the requests due to lack of funds. me point out a few factors so that Even in big villages such as the Minister can reconsider the Kanye, if you take Mafhikana use of the word of voluntarism. ward which is run by a Headman There is no volunteer who can of Arbitration, one will concur be told to bring a sick leave note with me that some wards need to if they failed to report to work be upgraded to the Headman of because they were not feeling Record level. The workload of the well. I have never heard of that Kgosi has to be reduced, we need in any work place, Mr Chairman. to upgrade some Dikgotla so that The conditions of service and they are not run by Headmen of guidelines that I referred to this Arbitration. Duties like certifying morning, stipulates that when should be dealt with at those one is sick, they have to bring in a Dikgotla instead of referring the sick leave note from a doctor who community to the main Kgotla is recognised by the Permanent for that. So this one is not a Secretary of the Ministry of question of one being a Headman Health. These people are entitled of Arbitration on allowance but it to 10 days leave per year, which is rather a question of upgrading shows that they are working. the kgotla and creating a higher Therefore, the Minister should post than that of the Headman of not dwell much on voluntarism. Arbitration. Mr Chairman, the The other point Mr Chairman is Minister is present and I hope he that there are some people who will assist me in presenting this are on B3 and they have terminal matter to the cabinet. However, benefits, these are the Headmen we will not relate some of the of Record. What brings about the things which were said here Mr difference between these two? Chairman. I believe that when I Why do others get an allowance ask for something from Kgosi, while others are permanent I do not give him an ultimatum Honourable Minister? They that if you do not give what I perform the same duties; the only want, this will happen. There thing which differentiates them has to be proper consultation and is the benefits. both parties should accommodate

99 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Upgrading the Payment of Dikgosi - Motion We request that this be attended the opportunity to table this to Mr Chairman, we are aware motion before this House, it that this is the system currently reads thus; “that this Honourable in place, but we want this to be House requests Government to looked into, even if they could be upgrade the payment of Dikgosi taken one by one. I do not want to from C2 to C1, and C1 to D4, make a follow up on some issues in order to fill the vacant D4 since the Minister really put us scale, within the Dikgosi pay in a tight corner in his response. structure.” Before I present my He made us feel uncomfortable motion, I would like to thank debating the motion because the three Dikgosi who went he appeared to be threatening. to England to seek protection, I appeal to him to desist from which led to the independence we doing that and let the Members are enjoying today. Were it not air their views freely because we for them, maybe there wouldn’t are here to say our views and get be peace and tranquillity in this best the ideas to be presented to country. This therefore means the relevant offices. Thank you that Dikgosi played a great role for the response Honourable in this country and this is why I Minister, for you have noted that wanted to recognise them before you will present it to the cabinet. I presented my motion. This shows that we have taken Mr Chairman, there is a vacant a great step. Thank you, Mr scale within the Dikgosi pay Chairman. structure. It has prompted me MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you to bring forth this motion and Honourable Members, as it is our request this House to support norm in this house, the question me. I will not take time in will be now put to close the my presentation, I will only debate. highlight a few points. Firstly, we do not know what informed Question put and agreed to. the decision to leave this gap in UPGRADING THE the structure as we are all aware PAYMENT OF DIKGOSI that Dikgosi are responsible in mediating and solving criminal Motion cases. My research has proved KGOSI KAHIKO III that we do 89 percent of the (GHANZI WEST REGION): cases. Only 11 percent of the Let me thank you Mr Chairman cases go through to the High this afternoon, for granting me 100 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Upgrading the Payment of Dikgosi - Motion Court and the Magistrates’ Court. me. Mr Chairman, let me appeal This shows that majority of the to this House to support me workload is carried out by the on this motion. Thank you Mr Dikgosi, Mr Chairman. There is Chairman. a huge salary gap between posts KGOSI MONNAATHEBE yet there is no explanation as (THAMAGA REGION): Thank to why it is like that. A Senior you Mr Chairman. I support Chief Representative is paid at the motion tabled by Kgosi D2 salary scale, when they are Kahiko as it has come at the not around, Chief Representative right time. There is a Setswana acts on their behalf and would be saying which goes; “ngwana paid at D3 scale. The next level o ja rragwe boswa,”-literally is C1 scale and then we have meaning that a child inherits the Kgosana at C2 level, all we his/her father’s legacy. This has need is for the gap to be closed shown that it is a true reflections Mr Chairman. We respect the of what happens on the ground. Constitution and leaders of this I always say that Dikgosi are country. These issues can be custodians of everything and resolved by both Dikgosi and they have been entrusted with leaders. Our wish is not to take a lot. They are like silos used the Government to court as it has to store grains, protected from happened with the other group of pests and harsh conditions. Our people, who took Government to three Dikgosi saw it fit to go and court following the promotion or seek protection for this country upgrading of their counterparts from England and they did so to to D2 level while they remained protect this country so that other at C1 level. The Government people do not come to inherit was ordered to pay them at what is ours. Maybe they would D3 scale. Our intention is to have taken over and left us empty negotiate with the Government. handed. We want an alignment so that the pay structure is aligned and ASSISTANT MINISTER OF no gap is left between officers. LOCAL GOVERNMENT You will correct me if I have (HON RAMMIDI): On a point erred because I can see that some of clarification Mr Chairman. of the Members are shaking Honourable Members keep their heads. Setswana is not my referring to the three Dikgosi who native language so I might make went to seek protection, so my mistakes on the way, bear with question is, is it payback time?

101 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Upgrading the Payment of Dikgosi - Motion KGOSI MONNAATHEBE: At not? I remember well that one times when we appreciate what member did not know if he was our forefathers have done for us to respond to what the Minister we tend to use living examples had said or not. We do not want and that is the case now Mr this to repeat itself hence we need Chairman. We are grateful that clarity on that. Thank you. you are running this country for MR CHAIRMAN: What I we know that we will benefit know is that any member is free from it as well. I do not think I to rise on a point of clarification. have said anything out of line. Any Member is free to seek Mr Chairman, this is a good clarification. Rule 29 states that, motion and it has been discussed “subject to the provisions of Rule in this House before, though 31, a Member shall not interrupt it was brought in the form of another Member except by rising questions. For that reason, I do on a point of order, when the not want to debate for long. At Member speaking shall resume times our silence does not mean his or her seat, and the Member that we do not know what to say, interrupting shall direct attention it just means those who debated to the point which he or she before us, spoke well. I therefore wishes to bring to notice, and support the motion, with those submit it to the Chairperson for few words. Thank you, Mr decision.” Therefore, it allows Chairman. for us to seek clarification even MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable when the Minister is responding. Members, we have Rule 32 in KGOSI TSHIPE our Rules of Procedure, it states (MAHALAPYE REGION): that, “a Member shall restrict his Thank you Mr Chairman. I or her observation to the subject support the motion tabled by under discussion, and shall not Kgosi Kahiko III. This is a rather introduce matter irrelevant to brief matter to address, why do we that subject”. I am not saying have a gap between C1 and D3? that we should not debate but let One would wonder what informed us debate focusing on the subject the decision as the understanding matter presented to the House. is that these people work together KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr and even their job descriptions Chairman is it procedural for the do not vary much, therefore, they Minister to do what he did? I do assist each other. When Moemela not know if he sought clarity or Kgosi is not in, the next one in

102 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Upgrading the Payment of Dikgosi - Motion line comes in and acts on their get the reason as to why there is behalf as they have the same that gap yet their job descriptions job description. Maybe to make are the same. With those few things easier, let me remind the remarks, I support the motion. house that the President appointed Thank you. a commission to do a review on KGOSI TOTO II public service salaries. Through (KGALAGADI SOUTH this commission, Dikgosi showed REGION): Thank you Mr that they were not happy with Chairman. I stand to support this their salaries and the review motion Mr Chairman. I just want had shown that Dikgosi had to point out that this anomaly is been underpaid. After that, a from way back. After the salary recommendation to the Ministry reviews, we noticed it and we had of Local Government to create thought that it would be rectified. a pay structure for Dikgosi was What we are simply saying is made. This came back with this that this anomaly be rectified so gap and we are still amazed as to that the pay structure does not how that decision was reached. have any gap as this is a concern We did not understand what might to us. Thank you Mr Chairman have created the gap in the pay structure. This is why we once KGOSI RAMOKWENA submitted this matter as a question (MAUN REGION): Mr but then we were not satisfied with Chairman, I would like to the response we got so we thought make a few comments on this it could be best if we presented motion, the mover has presented it as a motion this time around. it well. Honourable Members We want this to be addressed in have debated it so well that we order to close the existing gap do not need to say much on it. Mr Chairman. Why is there this We have to see the movement gap since when Motshwarelela of permanent and pensionable Kgosi is not in, the junior one acts Headmen of Arbitration from B3 for the position with instructions salary scale to C3 scale so that from the one leaving the office. we do not leave anything out. We What happens now is that, when have to be clear on what we want one is supposed to act, they move as Members of this house and we from the C1 scale to D3 bottom have to be straight and point out notch. This shows that there is a what we need rather than making gap. We therefore want this to be unclear statements, we should considered and maybe we could stand our ground. I support this

103 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Upgrading the Payment of Dikgosi - Motion motion as the mover has moved making this request in a peaceful it. I mentioned that example as manner, mainly because we are it is one of those that should be the leaders of this nation. We rectified as well. Thank you Mr have to be exemplary. However, Chairman. should we carry on like this; it is going to work against us as KGOSI BOIDITSWE Dikgosi. I want to point out that (SEROWE REGION): Thank every person has every right you Mr Chairman, I move that to show their dissatisfaction the question be put as it appears when they are not happy with that we agree to the motion. the services given to them and MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable this does not leave Dikgosi out. Members, let me request that when Others think that the D4 post we want to debate, let us decide was a deliberate move to taunt once and not remain hesitant to them. From where I stand, it was point out that we want to debate, deliberately created and put there some of us are not visible enough to see what our reaction will from where I stand and let your be, whether we will question its indication be clear. existence or not. Mr Chairman, if this issue is not rectified, then KGOSI MACHILIDZA it is possible for us to take the (BOTETI REGION): Thank Government to task as well. you Mr Chairman. I am grateful The present Minister of Local you picked that hesitation. Mr Government is our ambassador Chairman, these are some of the to the Government, more so that things we cannot just ignore. he says that he is on our side. The mover of the motion has He should note these things and stated that the anomaly should inform the relevant authorities be rectified. He also said that that the people I am representing we are not like those who took have a complaint about this and the Government to court. The that. He should also state that member pointed out his opinion he agrees with us. It does not but at the same time, we should matter which constituency he consider that we start off with a represents but the bottom line request and then we consult and is that he is our ambassador to negotiate with one another, after the Government because this the request has been made. Mr House represents the country at Chairman, the Bogosi institution large. Honourable Rammidi, we carries a lot of respect; they are present this request to you and

104 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Upgrading the Payment of Dikgosi - Motion your office, that we want this anomaly. The Government pay situation to be rectified and if it structure has never been fixed in is not possible, let us know the such a way that scales will follow reasons as we already know that each other in a sequence. There we have volunteered our services. is no provision that says that Headmen of Records are all over there cannot be a gap within the the country and where there is pay structure. This does not only a Headman of Record, there is apply to Bogosi, it also happens Headman of Arbitration as these in some of the Government two work hand in hand. I will not ministries as well. hesitate to state that I am one of Kgosi Kahiko III mentioned that those who are affected and this there is a vacancy at D4 level; should be rectified Mr Chairman. there is no vacancy, but rather Thank you Mr Chairman. there is a gap. It would not be KGOSI ESTERHUIZEN right to move you to D4 from (SPECIALLY ELECTED): C1 scale just because you want Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am to be moved. It is not a question standing up to support the motion. of what one wants; it is all about If there are any irregularities the job you are doing and its among the salaries, they should responsibilities. be corrected. I am saying this Firstly, Honourable Members have because I have been working to know that all pay structures are for this department; Kgalagadi created by the salaries commission. Tribal Administration, for 30 They conduct job evaluations years, but I was suffering and I to determine what is being done am still suffering because of the at a certain position. So it is not low pay. So I support this idea. enough to say that in the absence Thank you very much. of the Senior Chief Representative MR CHAIRMAN: I believe the Chief Representative can act, that all Members who wanted to then that shows there is a gap, debate the motion have done so. no, that is normal. That is why you are said to be acting. The ASSISTANT MINISTER OF reason why one would be paid an LOGAL GOVERNMENT acting allowance is recognition (HON RAMMIDI): Mr that you are performing duties Chairman, let me start by just which are not normally yours. informing the House that there is Job descriptions might be similar nothing to rectify since there is no like Kgosi pointed out, but I do

105 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Upgrading the Payment of Dikgosi - Motion not believe that responsibilities a case for the salary of the Chief can be similar. We find that Representative, let us make it probably the case load carried and not argue that they should be by the Chief Representative is paid because there is a gap, let us not similar to that of the Senior talk about the work load which Chief Representative. An appeal calls for their promotion from for a case heard by the Chief C1 to D4 and not about the gap Representative, is referred to between the posts. A job analysis the Senior Chief Representative. will then be done after that to Therefore, these are two different check if there is that need for the things Mr Chairman. These desired promotion. I knew that things are different. Honourable this argument will lead to a call to Members, what happened is that move the Headman of Arbitration those who did the job evaluation to C1 level from the B3 level, if looked at the job content and the gap is filled. Let me just say, it job load. Out of the evaluation would be very difficult for me to conducted, the analysis take this issue to the Government showed that the Senior Chief because as far as I am concerned, Representative should be at D3 there is no anomaly to be rectified, level and the Deputy Chief should but rather it is a procedure that has be at D1 level. If we could use always been there. Thank you Mr the argument you are using, we Chairman. would ask why the Senior Chief MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI Representative and the Deputy LOTLAMORENG II): Thank Chief are not at the same salary you Honourable Minister. Kgosi scale as they both handle cases. Kahiko III would you like to The argument would be that the say anything in closing your two do the same work hence motion? calling for the same pay scale. Mr Chairman, we have to understand KGOSI KAHIKO III: Thank that the pay structure does not you Mr Chairman. I am not happy necessarily have to fill in all the about the response. In all fairness, scales listed on it. We can take there is not much difference different ministries where this between Chief Representative and situation is prevailing, I also want Senior Chief Representative. We to assure Members that this is not have seen the situation where there an anomaly but it has been put like used to be a gap in the structure that by the salary commission, within the Police Department. it happens. If you want to make However, it has since been

106 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion rectified. Before we bring motions he has an urgent trip to take. I here, we conduct some research. It therefore defer this motion to a is not like we are just pushing for later date Mr Chairman. people to be moved to D4 salary Motion- deferred. scale. This is how things should be. That is why we want them to EXEMPTION OF VALUED be rectified. I thank you Minister. ADDED TAX FROM WATER Thank you Mr Chairman. CHARGES MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Motion Kgosi Kahiko III. I shall now put KGOSI NDZONGA the question. (TUTUME REGION): Thank Question put and agreed to. you Mr Chairman. There is no Minister present to respond to MR CHAIRMAN: Let me this motion, but I have since request that we adjourn for received a response outside this approximately five minutes. House and I think it addresses all Thank you. the issues I had wanted to touch PROCEEDINGS on. I therefore withdraw this SUSPENDED FOR FIVE motion Mr Chairman. MINUTES Motion- withdrawn. MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI APPOINTMENT KGARI III): Good afternoon OF MINISTER FOR Honourable Members. We shall PRESIDENTIAL continue with today’s Order AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC Paper. ADMINISTRATION AS ALIGNMENT OF THE LEADER OF NTLO YA CUSTOMARY COURT DIKGOSI CLERKS SALARIES TO Motion THOSE OF MAGISTRATES COURT CLERKS KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II (BAROLONG): Thank you Motion Mr Chairman. I stand to present KGOSI LOTLAMORENG to the House the motion which II (BAROLONG): Thank you reads thus, “That this Honourable Mr Chairman. The Honourable House requests Government Minister has asked for the to appoint the Minister for deferment of this motion as Presidential Affairs and Public

107 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion Administration the Leader of the house that we will start sitting for House of Ntlo ya Dikgosi.” Mr 2 weeks. I cannot recall which Chairman, my motion is based year it was. We are not saying on the following reasons; I did a he does not love this House but research and read some law books it has been revealed that he has and the Powers and Privileges so many commitments that keep of this House. I perused the him away from attending this Constitution of Botswana, trying House. It now appears like we do to find where Ntlo ya Dikgosi was not have a Leader of the House established but I did not come yet he has been appointed. The across any clause which states Vice President is at the same that the Vice President should be office with the Minister for the Leader of Ntlo ya Dikgosi. I Presidential Affairs and Public am referring to the office of the Administration, the Minister Vice President. Mr Chairman, we want to be appointed as the there is a belief in this House Leader of this House. that the Vice President should One would wonder why we are be the Leader of this House and calling for the appointment of the I do not know where we get that Minister for Presidential Affairs from. That being the case Mr and Public Administration of Chairman, the Vice President all the ministers. The reason is remains the Vice President and that, Ntlo ya Dikgosi falls under I do not doubt his capabilities in Parliament, which falls under the being the Leader of this House, Office of the President. Maybe it but my worry is that the Vice would be easier for the Minister President is overwhelmed with we are referring to, to address the work by virtue of being the Vice House time and again, because President. It is evident that he has with Vice President, it is a a lot to do hence he does not play challenge to get to see him. We any significant role in the House. have several issues which need Mr Chairman, most of us have to be resolved; maybe it would served several terms in this House be easier if we had the Minister but if I were to ask the last time to respond to our requests and we saw the Vice President as the concerns timeously. We have Leader of this house, here in this issues like accommodation House, I will not get an answer. I requests and others. We have do not recall the last time he was long submitted our proposals for here. The last time I saw him, the Ntlo ya Dikgosi (Powers and was when he came to notify this

108 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion Privileges ) Act to be amended, by the Cabinet meeting but if it but we are still waiting for the is like that, let the Government response. We are not saying that consider appointing someone it has not been attended to but whom we would be able to meet due to the various commitments with as and when we desire. One that the Vice President has, he who would not be constrained has limited time to look at it. by other responsibilities. I am Even though we are aware that referring to the Minister for the Minister has commitments Presidential Affairs and Public too, maybe they are minimal as Administration. Thank you Mr compared to those of the Vice Chairman. President and it could be easier KGOSI LEMPADI to meet with him. (OKAVANGO REGION): We are aware that the Cabinet is Thank you Mr Chairman. I under the leadership of the Vice support this motion for the President. If there is need to see simple reasons that could be seen the Vice President, we could by anyone. All new members of always appoint to see him but it this House who were sworn in would be better to have a Leader last year have never seen the Vice of the House who is always President in this House. Even for around. Mr Chairman, this move us who have been in this House; would not lower the status of we last saw him five years ago. Ntlo ya Dikgosi in any way, not This shows that he has many that anybody has said it would. commitments, which make it I believe that the status of the impossible for him to come to this House will be uplifted since we House during its sitting. A leader will be meeting with our Leader has to regularly visit the people of the House on regular basis. he leads and take their concerns Just like the President, the Vice to the responsible authorities. President will visit us as and when But when he fails to come to a time permits. Mr Chairman, let us sitting, it goes on to show that relieve the Vice President of this he has a lot of commitments. We responsibility, more so that there request the appointment of the is nowhere in the Constitution Minister for Presidential Affairs where it is stipulated that the Vice and Public Administration to President should be the Leader of be the Leader of this House, Ntlo ya Dikgosi. Maybe it was even though we are aware that something that was agreed to he has other commitments too.

109 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion Her workload is better compared leadership of the Minister for to that of the Vice President. I Presidential Affairs and Public support the motion because the Administration, when matters are Vice President never finds time to beyond his/her control, they can be with us during our sitting. The easily be refered to the relevant Minister for Presidential Affairs authorities or the next senior and Public Administration can person. Even if we have issues to be able to assist in whatever present Mr Chairman, it becomes way possible since we always a bit of a challenge as they are refer some matters to his office. presented at a higher office and I therefore support the motion. sometimes it does not look good to Thank you Mr Chairman. present matters at a higher office rather than having consulted KGOSI RAMOKWENA with the Minister first, who will (MAUN REGION): Thank you then channel the communication Mr Chairman. Let me briefly to the relevant office. Procedure touch on some of my reasons for has to be followed just like at supporting this motion. The Vice schools, pupils enroll at standard President has a lot on his hands by one level and proceed to standard virtue of being the Vice President seven and not vice versa. That is and it is a fact we all know. For the procedure Mr Chairman. It those reasons, we request the is not like we have any conflict Minister for Presidential Affairs with the V.P. or we doubt his and Public Administration to capability. We understand that be appointed the Leader of this he has too much responsibility House. If he cannot handle the in his office. Maybe he does not issues that we bring before him, undermine us by not showing up which may not necessarily be at our sittings but it is because of complaints, he will relay them the so many responsibilities he is to the Vice President. Even when charged with. We would be glad there is a case Mr Chairman, it if he could be relieved of this one does not start at the High Court responsibility and, it is for these or the Court of Appeal and then reasons that I support the motion goes on to the Magistrates and tabled by Kgosi Lotlamoreng II then to the Customary Courts. A as it came at the right time and case starts at a lower level of the should be considered. It has been Customary Courts, then proceeds presented in good faith and the to the High Court. I take it that mover has a vision for this House. when this House is under the Thank you Mr Chairman.

110 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion KGOSI MACHILIDZA it appropriate for us to directly (BOTETI REGION): Thank deal with those who take overall you Mr Chairman. Let me also decisions. We do not want our high have my input on the motion office to be in a state of confusion tabled by Kgosi Lotlamoreng II, about this House. If it were our which requests the Government decision to make, I would say we to appoint the Minister for should appoint the Minister for Presidential Affairs and Public Presidential Affairs and Public Administration as the Leader Administration as the Leader of of this House. This is a good this House so that we can be open motion Mr Chairman. Batswana to him/her. This is somebody are a respectful nation. We do not whom we meet time and again, want a situation where we would be it in workshops or anywhere. quarrel with the second highest I remember the time we were at office of this country when our the Grand Palm and I mentioned issues are not resolved. I believe that Honourable Motsumi is an that this motion aims at bringing ambassador to this House. We this House to the level where we would not say we have moved will all be free to say what we from the Office of the President, want. Mr Chairman, if I may give it is just a change of office. an example, we deal mostly with That is all. We have long kept the Cabinet Ministers in terms of quiet about this issue, it is high the business of the House. This time we talked about it openly. therefore means that it would We need a response. If there is be easier for us to discuss our something that could hinder the concerns with them. In life, when implementation of this motion, let one is not happy with something, it be known. Since the Minister is there has to be a place where they here, he could be able to advise can appeal to. on what needs to be done to address the situation if we are not Our intention is not to report presenting it well. Mr Chairman, anybody. It is just that, we want I want the motion to pass and I to create a platform where we appeal to other Members and the can appeal to. If we are not happy Minister to agree to this motion. with the way a certain Minister is One Minister once pleaded with treating us, we should be able to us to concur with him and today I approach the Vice President and also need you and the Minister to ask him to talk to him. This is a agree to this request. Thank you respectful procedure. I do not see Mr Chairman.

111 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion KGOSI MONNAATHEBE be appointed the Leader of this (THAMAGA REGION): Thank House. Honourable Members you Mr Chairman. I support this who have debated this motion motion Mr Chairman. What is have also pointed out that they being said here is nothing else last saw the Leader of this House but the truth. Kgosi Lempadi about five years ago, as for the mentioned here that some new new Members, not even once. I Members of this House do not support the motion as well Mr know that the Vice President Chairman. However, we should can sit with this House. I am just also question ourselves, if we giving an example, even though still need the Leader of the House one may be new, we can see that since the position can be inactive the Leader of this House carries a for so long. After the adoption lot of responsibility. Personally, I of this motion, let us interrogate would say that I only saw the Vice this issue. Even though we may President in 2010 when we were have been briefed before, we being sworn in. Then I met him still need to be educated on the when he came to brief us on the responsibilities or role of the poverty eradication measures. He Leader of the House. I feel that we has a lot to do such that in most should consider if we still need cases, he does not meet all the the Leader of the House since the responsibilities. Mr Chairman, House sits through Chairmanship we are all aware that when one and the Secretariat, without does not perform according to the Leader of the House. I just the standards, they ought to be wanted to say those few words, relieved from some of the duties I support the motion. Thank you for progress sake. I therefore Mr Chairman propose that the question be put KGOSI BOIDITSWE in order to avoid having to debate (SEROWE REGION): Thank this motion at length. I strongly you Mr Chairman. We have said support this motion. Thank you it all. We have to correct what has Mr Chairman. been left unattended for a long KGOSI MOETI II time, especially for us who do the (SPECIALLY ELECTED): advisory role in the country. It is Thank you Mr Chairman. Kgosi an honour to see us coming up Lotlamoreng’s motion requests with such an initiative to advice that the Minister for Presidential where we deem appropriate. Affairs and Public Administration Those who take decisions will

112 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion look into the facts and see what bring this House to the level it has to be corrected. Honourable should be. I therefore do support Members have debated about this motion with those few words. the responsibilities of the Vice Thank you Mr Chairman. President, Mr Chairman; he has KGOSI TOTO a lot of commitments. Being the II(KGALAGADI SOUTH Leader of this House is an added REGION): Thank you Mr responsibility which needs time Chairman. I would like to as well, it is overwhelming. I contribute to the motion tabled support the motion for the reasons before this House. Let me point that it would be easier to see the out that this House has been Minister for Presidential Affairs complaining that they have been and Public Administration as disempowered in many respects she comes here often to respond on several occasions. Now we to questions. Mr Chairman, are calling for the Leader of the Rules of Procedure do not the House to be the Minister stipulate anywhere that the Vice instead of the Vice President? President should be the Leader Mr Chairman, from my own of the House. However, the point of view we are not being Minister often comes to respond fair to ourselves to say that we to our requests. Mr Chairman, should be led by the lower office, even if the Vice President instead of the higher office. We wanted to come to this House’s would be lowering our status Mr sitting, due to his commitments, Chairman. As the second House he would not be able to attend. of Parliament we should consult However, it is very important to directly with the higher office discuss these issues. If the Vice rather than channelling them President was always present through the lower office. during our sittings, some of these issues would not be presented as At times people get themselves questions or motions, because he into trouble unaware, we are would have met with us to brief not saying that Ministers are us on different topics, and we not powerful but Bogosi holds would be satisfied knowing that a higher position than the we are briefed. Like the mover ministerial position. I remember of the motion has stated, we do there was an argument in the not underestimate the capability past, some of the Dikgosi of the Vice President but we want argued that Bogosi should not to be recognised and we want to be under the Ministry of Local

113 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion Government but rather should be see him during our sittings. I take under the Office of the President; it that we have a right to relay our Dikgosi reporting directly to the request to his office. My concern President, looking at the position is that we would be relegating Bogosi holds in this society. the Ntlo ya Dikgosi from the When we came up with the then supervision of the high office to Chieftainship Act, which is now the lower office. I therefore do called Bogosi Act, we gave the not support this motion. Thank Minister absolute powers. When you Mr Chairman. one reads through the Act, the KGOSI TSHIPE Minister has got absolute powers, (MAHALAPYE REGION): some of those powers should be Thank you Mr Chairman. I am possessed by this House. not sure as to whether I should Take this matter for example; the support or negate this motion. Minister of Local Government Maybe by the end of my debate, receives and solves matters that my reasoning will indicate where should be solved by Dikgosi I stand. Kgosi Lotlamoreng has at their respective regions. We put his motion well, that the find the Minister involved in Minister for Presidential Affairs Bogosana matters which in and Public Administratrion actual fact, should be addressed should be appointed as the Leader by Dikgosi, something which is of this House. I understand his not good. The Minister has been reasons and where he is coming given these powers by the current from. I will not take time in Bogosi Act and I do not wish we debating Mr Chairman, but one could do that again Mr Chairman. thing which makes it difficult for Ntlo ya Dikgosi and the Minister me to support this motion is that I for Presidential Affairs and feel that we have not consulted on Public Administration are both this motion. Kgosi Lotlamoreng under the Office of the President, stated that he has not seen any which means that the Leader of Act which says that the Leader the House can assign the Minister of the House should be the Vice to come and address the House on President. He is the Leader of outstanding issues. It is therefore the two Houses, this one and the very difficult for me to support National Assembly. The life of this motion. The House is free to the Ntlo ya Dikgosi is tied to that let the Leader of this House know of the National Assembly and that we need him if we need to maybe the fact that he leads the

114 Tuesday 25th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion other House makes it automatic with him before anything else, is for him to lead this one too, as that he has to be informed about they are in the same structure. I our observations and suspiscions. have a problem in supporting this We should inform him that his motion in the sense that since presence in the House is needed so the Constitution allows the Vice that he could assist with the way President to be the Leader of the forward. I believe that he wants to National Assembly, which is tied see this House doing well, and I to Ntlo ya Dikgosi, how then are strongly believe that he could be we going to separate these two? able to assist in the development I understand the reasons laid by of the House. We should address Kgosi Lotlamoreng but at the this issue with him Mr Chairman. same time, this one point makes If we do not reach an agreement me want to negate the motion then that is when we could opt since I do not see how we can for a third party to mediate on the deal with it. Let us look into issue. I understand what Kgosi this matter first before we can has said but I still think we should conclude anything. I therefore take it up with the Vice President do not know where I stand and Mr Chairman. probably I will know when we MR CHAIRMAN: We will vote on the motion. Thank you have to adjourn as it is now Mr Chairman. 1600 hours. The debate shall KGOSI GAREBAKWENA resume the following day, (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): please do not disperse; there is Thank you Mr Chairman. I thank an announcement to be made. Kgosi for this motion, reason Thank you. being that it appears the Vice ADJOURNMENT President is very busy and it has been a while since we saw him The House accordingly in this House.We thank him for adjourned at 4:00 o’clock p.m making us aware that there is until Wednesday 26th January, no law which stipulates that the 2011 at 9:30 a.m. Leader of the House must be the Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Vice President. However, this has been the norm, the Vice President THE HOUSE met at 2.30 p.m. has always been the Leader of this (CHAIRMAN in the Chair) House. One thing that we should P R A Y E R S look into and probably take it up * * * *

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CHAIRMAN’S for the speedy recovery of ANNOUNCEMENT the hospitalised Leader of the House and Vice President of the MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI Republic of Botswana, Lt. Gen. KGARI III): Good morning Merafhe) Honourable Members. Before we start today’s business I would MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you like to call on Kgosi Lotlamoreng Kgosi Monnaathebe. to make a short announcement. QUESTIONS FOR ORAL KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II ANSWER (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr LACK OF PROVISION Chairman. Honourable Members, FOR THE DOMESTIC Honourable Ministers and VIOLENCE ACT IN Assistant Ministers here present, THE PENAL CODE OF ladies and gentlemen, we have BOTSWANA been notified that the Leader of this House, His Excellency the KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH Vice President of the Republic EAST REGION): asked the of Botswana, Lt Get Mompati Minister for Defence, Justice and Sebogodi Merafhe is not well Security to state: and has been admitted at the i) why the Penal Code of hospital. We wish him well and Botswana does not provide believe that by the grace of God for offences and penalties he will get well in no time. That in respect of the Domestic is the announcement we wanted Violence Act; and to make. Mr Chairman, as we are talking about the Leader of this ii) if the Minister is aware that the House and the Vice President, I current Domestic Violence would request one Member to Act is just a deterrent that pray for his recovery. Thank you seeks temporary relief. Mr Chairman ACTING MINISTER FOR MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you DEFENCE, JUSTICE Kgosi. Let me request one of AND SECURITY (HON the Members to pray for the MOTSUMI): Mr Chairman, recovery of His Honour the Vice the Penal Code of Botswana President. does not provide for offences and penalties in respect of all KGOSI MONNAATHEBE: criminal acts including domestic (The Member recited a prayer violence. 116 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

Moreover, the Domestic Violence on calls after 8 hours of Act provides for the protection of normal working time. survivors of domestic violence ASSISTANT MINISTER and the processing of orders issued OF HEALTH (HON by courts in relation to matters MATLHABAPHIRI): The relating to domestic violence. Ministry of Health set in motion I thank you Mr Chairman. a process to address the issue in line with the laid down procedures KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank between the employer and the you Mr Chairman. Honourable employee. This process will take Minister, do you not consider into account the fact that the making that provision in the near employees in question have been future? Thank you Mr Chairman. paid overtime allowance. HONOURABLE MOTSUMI: A nurse cannot choose to be Thank you Mr Chairman. We exempted from working on calls have no intention of doing that after 8 hours of normal working Mr Chairman. We believe that the time because of the following clauses in other Acts are enough reasons: to help deal with such issues. Thank you Mr Chairman. a) A nurse is an officer whose duty is to safeguard the KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank interests of the patients/ you Mr Chairman. clients or members of the NKANGE NURSES WHO public hence professionally REFUSE TO WORK AFTER she/he is to continuously HOURS give service to customers after normal working hours KGOSI T. NDZONGA (Nurses and Midwives Act (TUTUME REGION): asked CAP 61:03 Part II 3 (d). the Minister of Health: b) Nurses are paid 30 per i) what action has been taken cent overtime allowance against nurses of Nkange to compensate for the time Clinic who refuse to attend to worked after working hours. patients after working hours, despite being paid 30 per cent c) Nurses are also given overtime allowance; and time off duty for working during weekends and Public ii) whether a nurse can choose Holidays. to be exempted from working

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Thank you. iv) if not, what strategy has he KGOSI NDZONGA: Thank put in place to improve the you Mr Chairman. Does it situation? make sense for the Office of the ACTING MINISTER FOR President to always issue out DEFENCE, JUSTICE circulars for nurses to be on call AND SECURITY (HON even during holidays? MOTSUMI): Mr Chairman, H O N O U R A B L E there were 322 fatal accidents in MATLHABAPHIRI: Thank the year 2010 which resulted in you Mr Chairman. I have already people losing their lives. In the noted that what is on the ground previous year, 372 fatal accidents is not procedural. It is not proper in which 475 people lost their for nurses to notify patients of lives were recorded. These figures the hours of service and that is depict a 13.4 per cent decrease in why I have stated that we are respect of accidents and 17 per still looking into this matter and cent reduction in fatalities. necessary measures will be taken In the same period of 2010, where possible. Thank you Mr 1,256 cases of serious injury Chairman. were recorded compared with KGOSI NDZONGA: Thank 1,540 recorded the previous you Mr Chairman, Thank you year, showing a reduction of 19 Minister. per cent. 2010 TRAFFIC OFFENCES/ One hundred andforty-eight ACCIDENTS thousand, three hundred and seven (148,307) drivers were charged for KGOSI BOIDITSWE violation of the Road Traffic Act (SEROWE REGION): asked for the period in question while the Minister of Defence, Justice 154,351 drivers were charged and Security: for offending the said Act in the i) how many fatal accidents preceding year. This showed a occurred in 2010; reduction of 4 per cent. ii) how many drivers were Statistics recorded for the year charged for traffic offences; in question show a considerable reduction in as far as accidents iii) can the Minister say if the and traffic violation are situation is under control concerned, indicating that the as compared to the 2009 road traffic situation in this figures; and 118 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer country was generally under RECYCLING WATER IN control in comparison to the HUKUNTSI previous year. KGOSI MONTSHIWA Despite the improved state of (KGALAGADI NORTH affairs, we continue to embark REGION): asked the Minister upon more strategies to sustain of Minerals, Energy and Water and also continue to improve the Resources if his Ministry has situation. The following are some plans to recycle waste water at of the ongoing initiatives; Hukuntsi sewerage ponds to be used as an alternative source for • Sobriety and Saturation watering vegetable gardens. Patrols MINISTER OF MINERALS, • Relay Speed Check Point ENERGY AND WATER • Sporadic Road Blocks RESOURCES (HON KEDIKILWE): Thank you Mr • Red Light Violation Chairman. The National Water Operation Master Plan Review (NWMPR) • Community outreach of 2006 has identified waste water programmes through print as a resource considering the and electronic media; and water scarcity in Botswana. The • Schools and Community idea is for waste water to be used Meetings or lectures targeting not only for horticulture but other vulnerable persons such uses. The Ministry of Agriculture as school children, elderly is charged with the promotion pedestrian members of the of waste water utilization in community, drivers etcetera. agriculture. Furthermore, the Thank you Mr Chairman. National Water Master Plan Review that I have referred to, KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank recommended that my Ministry you Mr Chairman. I take note of implements the water sector the efforts in place and I would reforms which will relinquish all like to urge the Minister to keep the waste water delivery including up the efforts as the statistics still Hukuntsi Sewage Ponds from the reflect a high number. There is a Ministry of Local Government slight reduction but if we keep (local authorities) to my Ministry. on trying then we would achieve The reform will assist in putting more positive results. Thank you in place the water policy which Mr Chairman. shall focus in maximizing waste

119 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer water re-use as an alternative of Local Government to state source throughout this country. what his Ministry plans to do Currently, my Ministry, through with the following:- the Department of Water Affairs, is i) abandoned teachers’ demonstrating waste water re-use prefabricated houses at through the use of a constructed Lehututu Primary School; wetland as a pilot project. The purpose of the initiative is to teach ii) abandoned prefabricated stakeholders about waste water staff Houses and offices at re-use as an alternative source. Hukuntsi; These efforts are being rolled iii) abandoned Remote out to the whole country through Area Dwellers hostels at public awareness campaigns. Lehututu; and My Ministry, through NDP 10 projects has plans to promote iv) the Minister should further waste water re-use in the country state who should be starting with Mahalapye, Palapye, held accountable for the Serowe, Bobonong, Tonota and vandalism caused. Ramotswa. Mr Chairman, the ASSISTANT MINISTER OF ultimate aim is to re-use water to a LOCAL GOVERNMENT potable stage, that is, a stage where (HON RAMMIDI): Mr people can drink it as I and other Chairman, my Ministry plans citizens have already done so, at to demolish the abandoned the Department of Water Affairs prefabricated buildings (asbestos) Pilot Project. In fact Kgosi when at Lehututu and Hukuntsi. people get to Israel, South Africa or even England they consume The challenge that we are facing this water, that is our aim Mr is that the disposal of asbestos Chairman. Thank you Sir. structures is undertaken by specialist companies licensed KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you to handle asbestos. The Mr Chairman. Kgalagadi District Council is ABANDONED HOUSES AND responsible for these structures, HOSTELS IN LEHUTUTU but unfortunately it took long AND HUKUNTSI to get the specialist companies to demolish them, hence the KGOSI MONTSHIWA structures were vandalised. That (KGALAGADI NORTH notwithstanding Mr Chairman, REGION): asked the Minister specialist companies licensed to

120 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer dispose asbestos have so far been the specialists will know how to identified, but due to budgetary dispose of it in such a way that constraints, my Ministry has not it would not pose danger, Mr been able to go ahead in engaging Chairman. them to demolish these structures. KGOSI MONTSHIWA: Thank Once we have the funds, they will you Mr Chairman. be demolished. I thank you Mr Chairman. DAMAGED CORDON FENCE FROM SENDICWA KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr TO GOSHWE Chairman, what kind of specialist is required in order to demolish KGOSI NDZONGA (TUTUME asbestos? REGION): asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: the cordon fence from Sendicwa Mr Chairman, the work has to to Goshwe is seriously damaged be done by specialist companies by elephants, if so, when he plans licensed to handle asbestos. We to repair it. cannot just take any other Council employees to go and demolish ASSISTANT MINISTER the structures because the Health OF AGRICULTURE (HON officials have indicated that it is MOLEBATSI): Thank you Mr very dangerous to one’s health. Chairman. My Ministry is aware We need skilled and specialised that disease control fences in personnel to do that. Thank you Nata area including the section Mr Chairman. between Sendicwa and Goshwe are under heavy elephant KGOSI TELEKELO: Thank challenge. Fence maintenance you Mr Chairman. Looking at is currently ongoing in badly the specialists required, is there damaged sections. My Ministry any possibility of reusing the gave priority to maintaining the asbestos after the structures have Sendicwa/Tsaathoka fence which been demolished? is the fence that separates the HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: zone 3c; an FMD - free without Mr Chairman, we do not intend to vaccination from zone 3b which reuse the asbestos following the is FMD free with vaccination, advice offered by the Ministry of over the Sendicwa/Goshwe Health that it should not be used line which separates the two for people’s accommodation. free zones. My Ministry is also We will demolish structures and exploring the use of other means

121 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer such as chilli pepper to reduce 2011 after our in-house teams elephant challenge. I thank you have completed the grading of Mr Chairman. Khakhea/Sekgwasentsho road. KGOSI MACHILIDZA: These roads will in the long Does the Minister mean that his term be outsourced to the private Ministry will use chilli pepper sector for maintenance. Tenders along that long cordon fence or for the projects were closed on he is referring to areas where the the 6th October 2010 and are fence is already damaged? being evaluated. Thank you Mr Chairman. H O N O U R A B L E MOLEBATSI: Thank you Mr KGOSI MONTSHIWA: Thank Chairman. The damaged fence you Mr Chairman. will be repaired, and on top of TENANTS PURCHASE that, we will use the chilli pepper SCHEME in places where it has been observed that elephants damage KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH the fence more often. Thank you EAST REGION): asked the Mr Chairman. Minister of Lands and Housing:- KGOSI NDZONGA: Thank i) what has happened to the you Mr Chairman. Tenants Purchase Scheme at Botswana Housing GRADING LEHUTUTU/ Corporation; and HUNHUKWI SAND ROAD ii) when does he intend to KGOSI MONTSHIWA reinstate it. (KGALAGADI NORTH): asked the Minister of Transport and MINISTER OF LANDS AND Communications if he is aware HOUSING (HON MOLEFHI): that the Lehututu/Hunhukwi sand Mr Chairman, The Tenants road is in a bad state, if so, when Purchase Scheme which was he intends to grade it. formerly operated by the Botswana Housing Corporation MINISTER OF TRANSPORT (BHC) has been discontinued. AND COMMUNICATIONS The scheme was discontinued (HON RAMSDEN): Mr because it no longer served Chairman, my Ministry is aware the purpose for which it was of the bad state of Lehututu/ established. Secondly, it had Hunhukwe road. There are plans become apparent that financial to grade the road in February markets in the country had 122 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer developed and many institutions bought a BHC house or have not were willing to lend money for been allocated any plots in the house purchase, serving the area where they are interested in same market that the scheme had buying a house, then they qualify initially targeted. Mr Chairman, to purchase. They will be notified there is no intention to reinstate in writing that their applications the Tenants Purchase Scheme. for purchasing a house have been Government has approved the received. Mr Chairman, when introduction of another scheme we implement the installment known as Installment Purchase purchase scheme, we are going to Scheme. The Scheme will be ensure that those who enroll do not targeted to the upper end of the have any other houses elsewhere low income group, namely the in the country. They should be group that currently fall outside first time buyers. Another thing is the upper limit of the Self Help that we have divided the scheme Housing Agency (SHHA) and into age sections, those who are BHC’s low cost housing. The eighteen to forty-five will have scheme will only commence the repayment period of twenty when the economy has improved years. Those at ages forty six as it has a subsidy component to fifty and cannot afford loans to be availed by Government. I will repay in fifteen years, fifty thank you. one to fifty five will repay in ten years, fifty six up to sixty years KGOSI MASUNGA: Mr will repay in 5 years while those Chairman is there any procedure who are sixty and above will have followed at the moment for to buy on cash. Thank you Mr Batswana to purchase BHC Chairman. houses? KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr HONOURABLE MOLEFHI: Chairman, for those who have Thank you Mr Chairman. The applied for plots under surveys procedure in place now is that and are still on the waiting list when BHC houses are being and are probably not far in the sold, advertisements are made waiting list, does it mean that on both the newspapers and the the person could be granted the Government Gazette so that will to purchase the house or those interested could purchase they could be told to wait to be following a tendering process. allocated a plot instead? Thank After thorough investigations you Mr Chairman. that indeed applicants have never

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HONOURABLE MOLEFHI: KGOSI BOIDITSWE Thank you Mr Chairman. (SEROWE REGION): asked Applicants who will be on the the Minister for Defence, Justice waiting list for plots do not own and Security:- any plots, they should be treated as i) how a prisoner without any such during assessment periods. immediate members of Approval of the applications is family can access his/her based on the ability of applicants bank statements to verify the to pay up for the purchases they balances; have made. After purchasing a house, when the time comes for ii) can a prisoner in such those who were on the waiting circumstances give list to be allocated plots, it will be somebody power of attorney picked that they already bought a to look after his/her bank house and therefore will not be accounts; and allocated a plot. Thank you Mr iii) what arrangements can be Chairman. made for such a prisoner KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank to collect money owing to you Mr Chairman. I have heard him/her by various debtors the changes that have been done to avoid a situation where and they are good. The property such debtors can die before market is interesting to a lot his/her release from prison. of people, however, we would ACTING MINISTER FOR be grateful if there could be a DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND discriminatory system in which SECURITY (HON MOTSUMI): the youth should be given priority Mr Chairman, arrangements since it is an investment to have are normally made through property in places like Gaborone the assistance of Prison Social and Francistown, the returns are Welfare Officers for prisoners very good. Advertising through without family members to access the media may only give the their bank statements to verify the same people the opportunity to balances in their accounts. Prisoners buy again. Mr Chairman. Thank are also allowed to appoint trustees you. to their bank accounts which PRISONERS’ BANK trustees would be responsible for ACCOUNTS AND DEBT making any business or financial COLLECTION transactions in those bank accounts on behalf of the convict. Finally Mr

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Chairman, I would like to confirm other parts of the country. Thank that the Botswana Prisons Service you Mr Chairman. has standing arrangements for NUMBER OF 2010 SPECIAL prisoners to collect moneys owed CONSTABLES RECRUITS to them with the assistance of the Prison Social Welfare Officers. KGOSI TELEKELO Thank you Mr Chairman. (MOSHUPA REGION): asked the Minister for Defence, Justice REPLACEMENT and Security to state the number OF SENIOR CLERK of recruited Special Constables ASSISTANT AT LEHUTUTU in the year 2010. CUSTOMARY COURT ACTING MINISTER FOR KGOSI MONTSHIWA DEFENCE, JUSTICE (KGALAGADI NORTH AND SECURITY (HON REGION): asked the Minister MOTSUMI): Mr Chairman, of Local Government when the in the year 2010, the Botswana Senior Clerk Assistants who Police Service recruited 227 were transferred from Lehututu Special Constables who are now and Hukuntsi Customary Courts fully attested members of the will be replaced. service. I thank you. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF KGOSI TELEKELO: Thank LOCAL GOVERNMENT you Mr Chairman. I do not know (HON RAMMIDI): thank you if the Minister will have the Mr Chairman. A Senior Clerk numbers but I would like to have Assistant was appointed at the total number of recruits for Tsabong tribal Administration 2010 inclusive of the ones she on the 8th November 2010. As mentioned. Thank you. for Lehututu, a rationalisation exercise carried out by Tribal MR CHAIRMAN: This is a Administration in Tsabong completely new question which resulted in one of the two posts the Minister will respond to only in that village being transferred if she has the statistics. to Struizendum where there was HONOURABLE MOTSUMI: no post. As a result, there is only Thank you Mr Chairman. I had one post in Lehututu which is thought that Kgosi referred to the filled; and the post transferred to recruits but now I am not sure if Struizendum will only be replaced he is talking about applicants or after satisfying critical demands in what.

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KGOSI TELEKELO: Mr HONOURABLE MOTSUMI: Chairman, I wanted to know the Thank you Mr Chairman. The number of those who have been question is clear but it is not the serving as Special Constables one on the Order Paper, and like and have now been absorbed, and Kgosi said, it could have formed how many new recruits who had part of the question for easy not been Special Constables had reference. The term recruit to been employed? If the minister us meant the number of officers does not have statistics then it is employed and we shall therefore okay, I should have indicated this look into the matter and provide clearly in my question. Thank the numbers as requested by the you Mr Chairman. Honourable Member. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: I am not sure if I understand and the Minister COUPON MACHINE FOR can only clarify if she understood SHOPS USING SOLAR the question. PANELS HONOURABLE MOTSUMI: KGOSI MACHILIDZA Mr Chairman, I do not know (BOTETI REGION): asked the if I understand what Kgosi is Minister of Local Government if looking for and I will therefore the Department of Social Welfare seek to meet with Kgosi to clarify will consider recommending the matter then I would be in a shops that use solar panels as better position to respond to the a source of electricity to be question. supplied with coupon machines where network is available. KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: Thank you Mr Chairman. Kgosi ASSISTANT MINISTER OF Telekelo wants to know the LOCAL GOVERNMENT number of Special Constables (HON RAMMIDI): Thank who were absorbed and trained you Mr Chairman. When we at the Botswana Police College started the Coupon System, we in 2010. The recruits he is talking supplied machines for swiping about are the ones at the Police and allocated them to retailers College. Maybe the Minister where there was electricity does not have the response to the and cellular network. At the question but Kgosi wants to know beginning, a total of 680 Point of those who were absorbed into the sale machines were purchased by Botswana Police Service. the Government Retailers who

126 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer are interested in having the point the Ministry of Environment, of sale devices in their retail Wildlife and Tourism. However, outlets powered with solar panels my Ministry assists with fence that can adequately produce patrol and removal of wildlife electricity and can also purchase that occasionally crosses into the their own devices, provided there livestock area. Consultations are is cellular network coverage in on-going with that Ministry to their areas. They can buy them find the most practical means of in the relevant District Councils. maintaining the fence. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank POSSIBLE OUTBREAK you Mr Chairman. I would like OF FOOT AND MOUTH to know how soon the Minister DISEASE will address the situation since we have long had the problem KGOSI MACHILIDZA of Foot and Mouth in the Boteti (BOTETI REGION): asked area, for over 33 years. The the Minister of Agriculture:- longer it takes to address the i) if he is aware of the possible matter the more we remain at risk outbreak of Foot and Mouth of an outbreak since the buffalo disease in the Boteti 4A movement is not controlled. Is area if the Makgadikgadi it not possible to treat this as a National Park fence is not matter of urgency Mr Chairman? maintained; and Thank you ii) if so, how does he plan to H O N O U R A B L E address the problem. MOLEBATSI: Thank you Mr Chairman. When people have ASSISTANT MINISTER been through the challenges OF AGRICULTURE (HON like the ones in this area, it MOLEBATSI): Mr Chairman, may appear like our response is my Ministry is aware of slow. I can confirm that we are the current condition of the addressing this issue as a matter Makgadikgadi National Park of urgency. As I have already fence and the potential risk stated, the fence is maintained of an FMD outbreak. The by the Ministry of Wildlife and maintenance of this fence is we are working hand in hand faced with challenges of flooding to prevent the outbreak Mr and heavy elephants challenge. Chairman. Thank you. Maintenance of the fence is currently the responsibility of 127 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

POOLING TRACTORS KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you FROM OTHER Mr Chairman. Is the Minister DEPARTMENTS FOR aware that people in the North PLOUGHING West region have not started ploughing; they are waiting for KGOSI MONTSHIWA tractors as is the norm? (KGALAGADI NORTH REGION): asked the Minister of H O N O U R A B L E Agriculture if he has any plans to MOLEBATSI: Mr Chairman, pool tractors from the Departments I did not get the question, and I of Roads, Forestry and other do not understand what Kgosi Government Departments in order means. I need clarification. to curb the shortage of tractors KGOSI LEMPADI: Minister, during the ploughing season. there are tractors from the ASSISTANT MINISTER Government which assist farmers. OF AGRICULTURE (HON In his response, the Minister said MOLEBATSI): Thank you that some of them are in the Mr Chairman. The Ministry of North West area. I wanted to find Agriculture where applicable, pools out if the Minister is aware that tractors from other Government in places like Okavango, people Departments to curb shortage of have not ploughed, they are still tractors during the cropping season. waiting for those tractors. For example, during this cropping H O N O U R A B L E season, the Department of Forestry MOLEBATSI: Thank you Mr and Ranch Resources, that is Chairman. I am aware of the Ministry of Environment, Wildlife shortage of tractors and the sixty and Tourism has availed a tractor that we have so far cannot cover each in the North West and Chobe all the areas. We have since District. However, it has to be pleaded with Batswana who have noted that despite having tractors, tractors to assist in this situation the majority of departments do and then they would be paid for not have appropriate implements. their services. Thank you Mr For example; ploughs, harrows, Chairman. planters. These reduce the extent to which tractors can be borrowed SUBSIDY OF to avoid them being idle since GLYPHOSPHATE TO the current ISPAAD implements CONTROL CYLODON IN match the available tractors. I TUTUME PLOUGHING thank you Mr Chairman. FIELDS

128 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

KGOSI NDZONGA (TUTUME it all Batswana will fail to retain REGION): asked the Minister their farms as a result of these of Agriculture:- weeds since they do not afford to purchase the herbicides used i) whether he is aware that the to control the weeds? Thank you ploughing fields in Tutume Mr Chairman. region are abandoned due to heavy infestation by the H O N O U R A B L E cylodon (motlhwa) weed; MOLEBATSI: Thank you Mr and Chairman. We have embarked on educating the nation on the ii) if so, will he consider control measures but as we are all providing farmers with a aware of the economic recession, 50% subsidy of glyphosphate as a way of assisting Batswana, or Mamba in order to control we provide the equipment and the cylodon weed. personnel while they buy the ASSISTANT MINISTER herbicides. I believe that when OF AGRICULTURE (HON we cooperate then we will be MOLEBATSI): Thank you Mr able to arrest the situation Chairman. Mr Chairman, the KGOSI POTSOENG: Thank Ministry is aware and concerned you Mr Chairman. I once attended with the problems caused by the a workshop organised by the cylodon weed country wide as Ministry of Agriculture and they this negatively affects production. shared with us on how to uproot Farmers are constantly trained the cylodon weed. They said you on weed management and given have to destroy its mound from advice on control measures. They the eastern side as it is believed are encouraged to buy herbicides that that is where the source is. and the Ministry provides How true is that Mr Chairman? personnel and equipment, that is, sprayers to demonstrate control H O N O U R A B L E measures through the ISPAAD MOLEBATSI: Thank you Mr programme. The Ministry has Chairman. I do not have the got no plans to subsidise the response to what Kgosi is asking herbicides used to control weeds. since I do not know where the I thank you Mr Chairman. workshop was held and I did not even attend it. Maybe Kgosi could KGOSI NDZONGA: Thank share with us on how to uproot you Mr Chairman. Is the the main root of the weed. Minister aware that at the end of

129 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: it. Plans for such improvements Thank you Mr Chairman. Do we are in progress. Implementation have enough herbicides to spray will take place this coming the weeds countrywide since we financial year. Incorporating do not have only the cylodon weed security features will also but we also have weeds such as apply to all other registration ricinus communis (mokhure)? documents. R5Mr Chairman, the proposed amendment of the H O N O U R A B L E Marriage Act will provide for MOLEBATSI: We have enough issuance of marriage certificate as herbicides Mr Chairman. Thank opposed to the current duplicate you. original register. I thank you Mr IMPROVING MARRIAGE Chairman. CERTIFICATE KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank KGOSI BOIDITSWE you Mr Chairman. We will be (SEROWE REGION): asked grateful for such developments the Minister of Labour and Home Mr Chairman as the security Affairs to state:- features will be of great use. Thank you. i) whether he does not consider it opportune for a Marriage CHANGING FROM Certificate to be improved BEING MARRIED OUT by incorporating certain TO IN COMMUNITY OF security features in it; and PROPERTY ii) whether he will consider KGOSI BOIDITSWE replacing the words (SEROWE REGION): asked Duplicate Original Register the Minister of Labour and Home which appear on the said Affairs whether couples who are certificate with the words married out of community of Marriage Certificate property can later be permitted (Original). to opt for their marriage to be in community of property. MINISTER OF LABOUR AND HOME AFFAIRS MINISTER OF LABOUR (HON SIELE): Thank you AND HOME AFFAIRS Mr Chairman. The Ministry (HON SIELE): Thank you Mr recognises the importance of Chairman. The current Married improving marriage certificate by Persons Property Act Cap 29:03 incorporating security features on does not permit couples married

130 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion (Resumed Debate) out of community of property pointed out that we have worked to later opt for their marriages with the Vice President for a long to be in community of property. time. Would it not be better to call However, it is envisaged that with him and talk over this issue before the proposed amendment of the we could take any decision? As Act, this issue will be taken into we discuss, we will be able to consideration. I thank you Mr tell him our concerns and he will Chairman. state his, at the end we will have a resolution. This would assist KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank in retaining the relationship we you Mr Chairman. Thank you have. As an Advisory body to Minister. Mr Chairman, it appears the National Assembly, we are there is a great improvement on aware that the advice we give can such issues. It was disheartening either be taken or not, we should to see couples marrying out of not let this affect the relationship. community of property stuck Mr Chairman, the best thing is to there for their lifetime. Thank consult with the Vice President you Mr Chairman. who is second in the leadership KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: of this country. I strongly believe Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me that we should consult for the request Members to desist from development of this House. Thank debating the questions. It does you Mr Chairman. not reflect well on us to ask so KGOSI KAHIKO III (GHANZI many supplementary questions. WEST REGION): Thank you APPOINTMENT Mr Chairman. I will differ with OF MINISTER FOR the Members who have debated PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS the motion. I would like to request AS THE LEADER OF NTLO the mover of the motion to defer YA DIKGOSI it as we are all aware that the Vice President is not well until he gets Motion better. My fear is that this may (Resumed Debate) worsen his condition. I move that KGOSI GAREBAKWENA this motion be deferred. Thank (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): you Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman. I had MR CHAIRMAN: Let me allow already started debating the motion the Minister to say a few words tabled by Kgosi Lotlamoreng since it appears she wants to say and had done so at length. I had something.

131 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion (Resumed Debate) MINISTER FOR the House for Parliament and PRESIDENTIAL this House lies with the President AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC and he can appoint just any ADMINISTRATION (HON other person from the cabinet, MOTSUMI): Thank you Mr who does not have to be the Chairman. From what I have Vice President. It is only that gathered yesterday and today, I the Vice President has been the do not think the motion should Leader of this House for quite be deferred. Rather I would like some time but any Minister can to respond to the motion if you be appointed. I consulted with permit me Mr Chairman, because the President on this matter the answer is very brief. yesterday. He told me that it is his decision to appoint the Leader of KGOSI LOTLAMORENG any of the Houses. Mr Chairman, II (BAROLONG): Thank you the overall decision lies with the Mr Chairman. I understand President and I will relay your what the Minister is suggesting concerns to him. The concern is and I would like to hear the clear as it does not refer to any response before we could decide individual but an office under the on the way forward. We have Office of the President. Thank debated the motion and if the you Mr Chairman. Members permit, I do not have any objections to the Minister’s KGOSI LOTLAMORENG request. II: Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me thank all the Members HONOURABLE MOTSUMI: who supported this motion and Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me those who differed with us, for thank the Honourable Members their opinion. Let me also thank and Kgosi Lotlamoreng for the the Honourable Minister for motion. The first thing we should the response. Mr Chairman, the know is that when we refer to request was for the Minister to the Leader of the House, we are be appointed the Leader of the talking about the office; this is House. Like we were saying to respond to Kgosi Kahiko’s yesterday, the Minister is someone concern that the Vice President whom we meet with from time is not well. We are not referring to time. I do not want to believe to him as an individual; we are that we will lower the status of referring to an office. The second this House; on the contrary, we thing Mr Chairman is that the will be uplifting it. We would be power to appoint the Leader of

132 Wednesday 26th January, 2011 Appointment of Minister as Leader of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi - Motion (Resumed Debate) able to meet, consult and resolve KGOSI BOIDITSWE: With our issues with our Leader if due respect Mr Chairman; let the we meet regularly, unlike what mover of the motion calm down, is happening at present. It is the motion went well... difficult to meet with the Vice MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi on President because he has a lot what point are you standing, of commitments more so that clarity or order? when the President is not in the country, he acts on his behalf. It KGOSI BOIDITSWE: My would be easier for this House Point of Order Mr Chairman; to call the Minister than the Vice is that the motion went well President if they have issues they therefore the mover should calm want to discuss with their Leader. down. It does not help for us to keep on KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: holding onto the status that is not Mr Chairman, I am calmer than working for us, maybe our status any other person in this House would be elevated if we are led as my motion went well. It is by the Minister whom we will normal procedure for the mover see regularly. Mr Chairman, I do of the motion to respond after not see how this motion could the Minister’s response. This cause conflict as suggested by is not a question but a motion. other Members. The Minister Mr Chairman, some Members has rightly pointed out that we have pointed out that the Vice are not talking about a particular President is the Leader of the two person but the office of the Vice Houses but that does not affect our President. Even the current business in any way. There is no Minister may be promoted law that stipulates that the person to be the next Vice President who leads the National Assembly and she would have a lot of should also lead Ntlo ya Dikgosi. commitments; we would have We have to have our own Leader a new Minister to be Leader of of the House and we are grateful this House as per our request Mr that the Minister has highlighted Chairman. One Member pointed that it is the President’s call to out that the Vice President is the make. We know that the President Leader of the National Assembly can appoint any of his Ministers as well as this House, this does to perform any task they may be not affect our procedure anyhow assigned, the same applies to the Mr Chairman... Vice President; he has to perform

133 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer the duties assigned to him by the (THE CHAIRMAN in the President. As it is the President’s Chair) decision to make, we therefore P R A Y E R S request the Minister to present this request to the President, that * * * * during the next appointment, a CHAIRPERSON’S Minister should be appointed REMARKS instead of the Vice President as this overwhelms him due to the MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI responsibilities he carries. We LOTLAMORENG II): Let me have not seen the Leader of this take this time to thank you for House for several years in this attending this House for the past House and it goes on to show that few days Honourable Members. he has a lot of commitments. I This is the kind of cooperation we am all wish for and we request that this continues even in the next calm Mr Chairman. I know that meeting. Honourable Members, Kgosi Boiditswe and you as well we will start today’s business with are assured that this has gone questions, as per our order paper. well. Thank you Mr Chairman. QUESTIONS FOR ORAL Question put and agreed to. ANSWER MR CHAIRMAN: We have MITIGATION OF COURT come to the end of today’s CASES business Honourable Members. We will meet tomorrow morning KGOSI BOIDITSWE at 09.30 am. Be reminded of the (SEROWE REGION): asked circulating questionaire that you the Minister for Defence, Justice should drop into the box over and Security:- there. Thank you Honourable i) if mitigation can be applied Members. for in every case that comes ADJOURNMENT before the Court; and The House accordingly adjourned ii) what law governs mitigation. th at 3:40 p.m until Thursday 27 ACTING MINISTER FOR January, 2011 at 9:30 a.m. DEFENCE, JUSTICE Thursday 27th January, 2011 AND SECURITY (HON MOTSUMI): Thank you Mr THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. Chairman. Let me take this

134 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer opportunity to greet Honourable person could be called to mitigate Members of this House. The on behalf of the accused before Law governing mitigation is the sentence is passed, in this enshrined in Section 297 (i) case, can I mitigate on behalf of the Criminal Procedure and of my herdman? Thank you Mr Evidence Act Chapter 08:02 Chairman. which provides:“The Court may, HONOURABLE MOTSUMI: before passing sentence, receive Thank you Mr Chairman. I take such evidence as it thinks fit in it that Kgosi understands the order to inform itself as to the court proceedings. No one will proper sentence to be passed”. be allowed to mitigate unless Although the word ‘may’ connotes called in as a witness on the case. permissiveness, in practice The defendant is given a chance mitigation is applied for in every to mitigate or their lawyer could criminal case that comes before the do so on their behalf before the courts.Mr Chairman, the practice sentence is passed. Otherwise not of mitigation before sentences all are given a chance to mitigate has become so well established for the accused unless they are through case law in Botswana and called to witness. Thank you Mr other similar Jurisdictions that it Chairman. has now crystallized into being part of our law. Consequently, KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr therefore it will be a serious Chairman, maybe the Minister irregularity which may result in did not understand my question. the decision being set aside were If I am one of the witnesses a court to proceed to sentence an for my herdman, would I be accused person in the absence of allowed to mitigate for them Mr mitigation as the purpose thereof Chairman? is to inform the court about the HONOURABLE MOTSUMI: personal circumstances of the Thank you Mr Chairman. If Kgosi accused, that is, character, age, is a witness then he shall give health condition, antecedents, evidence as requested. Mitigation responsibilities and extenuating and evidence are not the same. circumstances et cetera. I thank Thank you Mr Chairman. you Mr Chairman. KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank Chairman, the Minister does not you Mr Chairman, does the address my question. My question Minister mean that any other is, if I register to be a witness

135 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer for a case where my herdman is question and as well as this an accused person, would I be House at large. Mr Chairman, allowed to mitigate on his behalf I know that a person mitigates as it has been for others? I need after judgement, they mitigate a yes or no answer if at all it fits before sentencing. My question that. Thank you Mr Chairman is that; can I come in as a witness to mitigate? That is the process I MR CHAIRMAN: The way I am talking about, I mean a person understand mitigation, it should who only comes in to claim they be done by the accused person know the accused and want to after the judgement has been mitigate. Thank you. passed and has been found guilty, that is how I understand MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable mitigation. Honourable Minister, Minister, could you give Kgosi I do not know if it is possible for Boiditswe a yes or no answer? one to mitigate on behalf of the HONOURABLE MOTSUMI: other, how possible is that? Thank you Mr Chairman. I do HONOURABLE MOTSUMI: not want to give such an answer Mr Chairman, Kgosi has lost because I have outlined reasons me as he mentioned that it which I believe make sense has happened and it therefore to both Kgosi and the House. means that there is something Kgosi is aware of the process of Kgosi is referring to. If one is a mitigation from their courts Mr witness, they give evidence on Chairman. Kgosi is asking if it is the case. Then the accused will possible for any other person to mitigate before the court after the mitigate for the accused but we judgement has been passed. The have said that only the accused only thing a witness does is to can mitigate then a lawyer could provide evidence which should do so just before sentencing. I be based on the case and not his therefore do not understand the circumstances. Thank you Mr one Kgosi is talking about. Thank Chairman. you Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: I believe that KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I will lawyers can mitigate on behalf of be done Mr Chairman. In cases their clients, those are the other where the accused does not have people who can mitigate. a lawyer to mitigate for them, if I know this person, can I mitigate KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr for them. I want to emphasise Chairman, you do not get my

136 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer on the point I mentioned earlier new ones as such a practice leaves on and I will not retract it as this the user departments stranded. is not only starting and that is MINISTER OF TRANSPORT why I said, as we have seen it AND COMMUNICATIONS happening. (HON RAMSDEN): Thank you MR CHAIRMAN: Minister, Mr Chairman, all Government who mitigates for the person who vehicles are boarded by CTO does not have a lawyer? workshops strictly in accordance with the laid down boarding HONOURABLE MOTSUMI: policy. This policy stipulates Mr Chairman, the accused that when a Government vehicle mitigate for themselves, they has reached uneconomical stage have that right as I have stated in of repair it should be boarded. my response earlier. They do not However, budgeting for purchase have to go and find someone to of new vehicles is done only once mitigate for them when they do in a financial year by respective not have a lawyer to do so. The ministries. When vehicles are law allows them to do so. Thank boarded during the course of the you Mr Chairman. financial year, it is the prerogative KGOSI BOIDITSWE: For of the ministries to ensure that progress sake, let us proceed even their departments are availed with though I have not been answered. replacement vehicles and not the Thank you Mr Chairman. CTO. Mr Chairman, I concur that some vehicles get boarded when MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi they are relatively new, because Boiditswe, if this could be they are excessively abused. This presented as a motion then we attitude by some Government would debate it better as it seems employees costs Government a to have a lot of issues. lot of money. I thank you Sir. SELLING AND KGOSI MASUNGA: Mr REPLACEMENT OF Chairman, the Minister has GOVERNMENT VEHICLES stated that there is excessive KGOSI RAMOKWENA misuse in Government vehicles, (MAUN REGION): asked is the problem not brought the Minister of Transport and about by employing unqualified Communications to explain why Transport Officers? Thank you Government vehicles are sold Mr Chairman. before they can be replaced by

137 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

HONOURABLE RAMSDEN: HONOURABLE RAMSDEN: Mr Chairman, we try to have Mr Chairman, in my answer to Transport Officers at CTO. the Honourable Member, I said In every Ministry there are that we board old vehicles which officers who make sure that all require maintenance frequently. Government vehicles are flagged The service providers charge down. These officers are more high maintenance prices and it or less a para -police officers becomes reasonable to purchase who also act as traffic officers new vehicles to replace the old who are in a position to question ones than service. Ministries a driver on the duties carried out order vehicles through us as the by the official vehicle. There are CTO and after the vehicles have people who while on official been secured and registered, then duties, tend to use Government the department distributes to vehicles to their benefit. Others various Ministries which should drink while on duty and at ensure that the vehicles stay in a the end of the day they make good condition. The vehicles are unnecessary accidents. As registered as per the year they much as we are trying to do have been purchased, for example what Kgosi Masunga is saying, those for 2011 are registered as human beings being human BX 011 and the vehicle should beings, they always have a way last for more than ten years. of doing things. As I say there However, other vehicles do not is abuse of vehicles by some last even five years due to the Government employees. Thank abuse that I have mentioned you Sir. earlier on. The Ministry has to take responsibility as we cannot KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank keep on replacing engines and you Mr Chairman. We understand gear boxes which are damaged the Minister’s response. Since due to the fact that drivers are Central Transport Organisation careless. CTO gives advice to the (CTO) is the one responsible for Ministry on the part which needs Government vehicles, from the maintenance and on what might experience they have had, why be the cause of the problem. don’t they monitor the kilometers This is the information that we the vehicles have covered and give, but Mr Chairman, as I have replace them when they are due said, human beings being human for replacement? Thank you Mr beings, I do not want to make Chairman. an allegation because this is an

138 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer official House but some vehicles maintenance of these vehicles? If are misused and at the end CTO there is a proper monitoring tool ends up boarding them. At times in place, what measures are put in we damage them deliberately place by Ministries who note the knowing that we will end up excessive abuse by employees? buying them seeing that they Is the Minister aware that the would still be relatively new. public buys vehicles that have Thank you Sir. been boarded by CTO and then those vehicles run for more that KGOSI POTSOENG: Thank ten years and one would wonder you Mr Chaiman. When the what might have happened for the Minister responded, he mentioned vehicle to be boarded? This goes excessive use but at the same time on to prove a point that there is mentioned misuse by drivers. I excessive abuse of Government would like to understand where vehicles. But is the Minister… the excessive use comes in on the part of drivers since they take MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi orders from management to do Ramokwena, could you please some duties. I do not know if I ask a supplementary question understand what the Minister KGOSI RAMOKWENA: was saying or maybe I have a Thank you Mr Chairman. Is the different understanding of the Minister aware that shortage word excessive use. of vehicles due to some being HONOURABLE RAMSDEN: boarded before time leads to Mr Chairman, I did not say use staff inefficiency? If I may I said abuse, excessive abuse by cite an example Mr Chairman, some employees. when one seeks help from the Veterinary offices, he would be KGOSI RAMOKWENA: told that there are no vehicles Thank you Mr Chairman. I and they cannot use private would like to ask the Minister vehicles to attend to customers whether he is aware that there because should they be involved are some drivers who do their in accidents, they would not be job diligently and their vehicles covered. Is the Minister also take long before they are boarded aware that this brings about a by CTO. Is the Minister aware lot of inconvenience and affects that there is also excessive abuse service delivery within the by other drivers as well who Government? Thank you Mr waste Government funds on the Chairman.

139 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable at which the drivers are going. Mr Members, let me request that Chairman, with regards to the one supplementary questions be short where people are hesitant to take and straight to the point. private vehicles, I am quite aware. Thank you Mr Chairman. HONOURABLE RAMSDEN: Mr Chairman, I think I have LIVESTOCK PROTECTION covered Kgosi Ramokwena’s BY SMALL FARMERS supplementary question in the KGOSI MONTSHIWA responses I have provided for (KGALAGADI NORTH): asked other supplementary questions. the Minister of Environment, We have noted the concern Mr Wildlife and Tourism if he is Chairman, and we have put aware that most of the small in a place a system where all farmers have no guns to protect drivers who abuse Government their livestock from jackals and if vehicles pay for the damages so, will he consider permitting the they might have caused. Within farmers to use their dogs against the Government institution, all these jackals as an alternative. BX vehicles will be monitored through a system which we want MINISTER OF to put in place next year, if things ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE go well. We would monitor all AND TOURISM (HON the vehicles from Gaborone, we MOKAILA): Mr Chairman, would be able to monitor a vehicle my Ministry is aware that not travelling to Shakawe though we every farmer including small are in Gaborone. The location, farmers have guns to protect time and speed of the vehicles their livestock from jackals. will be monitored. This is what However, although Section 46(1) the Government wants to put in of the Wildlife Conservation and place and we are hoping that by National Parks Act No. 28 of the beginning of the financial year 1992 empowers the occupier of this would be in place in order land to defend his/her property to reduce this misuse of vehicles (including livestock) against resulting in over expenditure of wildlife, the same Act, Section Government funds. All Cabinet 57 prohibits the use of dogs. Ministers’ vehicles will be Thank you Mr Chairman. installed with the tracking device COMMISSIONED Mr Chairman and these would LOCAL TELEVISON even help us to monitor the speed PRODUCTIONS

140 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH HONOURABLE MOTSUMI: EAST REGION): asked the No Mr Chairman, I said, these Minister for Presidential Affairs were second sessions. and Public Administration to KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank state:- you Mr Chairman. Minister, I i) how many local television am surprised that though BTV productions have been has long been operating, it commissioned by the appears that we only have two Department of Information productions. I would like to know and Broadcasting; and how much is reserved for this department every financial year, ii) what quality assurance for financing local production. measures are in place to Do you ever reserve any money determine the quality of for local production or you just production. consider applications according MINISTER FOR to how people submit? Thank PRESIDENTIAL you Mr Chairman. AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC HONOURABLE MOTSUMI: ADMINISTRATION (HON Mr Chairman, Kgosi has MOTSUMI): Mr Chairman, the indicated that ever since BTV department has not commissioned started operating, there has any local programmes this only been two commissioned financial year due to lack of funds. programmes. Let us understand The last commissioning was in that when BTV started operating, 2008. These were the second it did not have much hence it seasons of Thokolosi and Re needed developments over the bina Mmogo which are currently years. Initially BTV did not airing on Botswana television. run for 24 hours and Members Regarding quality assurance can concur with me on that we measures, the department has a are slowly getting there. We commissioning officer whose are still developing the station responsibility is to monitor as the number of programmes production through all the stages has increased to date. Getting i.e. proposal, preproduction, programmes that we could air production and post production. on BTV, either from Batswana MR CHAIRMAN: I did not get or outside, depends on the the response well; did you mention availability and quality of the circumcision of thokolosi? programmes. We also have to

141 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer consider the lifespan of the Ministries could be channeled programme to be commissioned, through this medium. Let the whether it has seasons or it will Citizen Economic Empowerment be aired and then goes for good. flow well to Batswana. Thank This is why I mentioned that you Mr Chairman. we have commissioning editors MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable and officers who will look into Members, let me request that the programmes from all levels. we should only limit ourselves Kgosi also wanted to know if we to supplementary questions and reserve any finances for these not debate after the responses programmes; Mr Chairman, we provided by the Ministers. allocate funds according to the projects to be done. Unfortunately NEGATIVE HEALTH RISK I do not have the budgetary BROUGHT BY MOPHANE figures with me now and as such WORM HARVESTERS I will have to consult and request KGOSI BOIDITSWE the figures. The bottom line (SEROWE REGION): asked is that the funds are allocated the Minister of Environment, according to the projects which Wildlife and Tourism whether are to be done. Whether the he is aware of the negative programmes are educative or for health risks to both human and leisure purposes, the time they livestock brought by mophane will run also counts. Thank you worm harvesters as they have no Mr Chairman. proper sanitation facilities and KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank leave all sorts of litter scattered you Mr Chairman. Minister, let where they set up camps during me point out that ten years is harvesting, if so, how does he a long time. BTV has been in intend to correct the situation existence for quite a number of MINISTER OF years now and it is surprising ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE to see our youth featuring in AND TOURISM (HON foreign/international television MOKAILA): Thank you Mr networks. This shows that we are Chairman. Mr Chairman, I am losing out on the talent displayed aware that phane is harvested in by these youth. I believe that remote places far from proper we could educate Batswana sanitation facilities, and if proper through television production. sanitation disposal methods are Information on different not practised by the harvesters,

142 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer this poses a health risk to both to complete the research? We livestock and human beings. As are now on the second season of said in response to a question phane harvesting in April. Will here recently, my Ministry there be anything in place to intends to reinstate the regulation address this sanitation problem? of harvesting of phane through Thank you Mr Chairman. the issuance of permits. We may HONOURABLE MOKAILA: consider the issue of sanitation as Thank you Mr Chairman. In my a condition for the permit. Thank response to Kgosi Boiditswe’s you Mr Chairman. question on the regulation of the KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank harvesting of phane, I mentioned you Mr Chairman. The response that I will present the request to as provided by the Minister is the Cabinet and if they approve understandable especially when then this will be gazetted. Thank it comes to the sanitation part. you Sir Is the sanitation a responsibility KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank of the Government or that of the you Mr Chairman. The key word harvesters Mr Chairman? Since here is “how does he” intend Phane will be found in North to address the situation. So the East this year, and in Boteti the Minister should put more focus following year, who is going to on the key word, “how”. Thank be responsible for this sanitation you Mr Chairman. facilities, is it the Government or the harvesters? Who is going to HEADMAN OF RECORD monitor the harvesters since they FOR TATI SIDING are many? VILLAGE HONOURABLE MOKAILA: KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr EAST REGION): asked the Chairman, most harvesters of Minister of Local Government phane are in business so, the when Tati Siding Village will have responsibility of sanitation is a post of Headman of Record. theirs. We may consider sanitation ASSISTANT MINISTER OF as a condition of the licence. LOCAL GOVERNMENT Thank you Mr Chairman. (HON TSHIRELETSO): Let me KGOSI SEELETSO: Thank greet this House and compliments you Mr Chaiman. Honourable of the new season. Mr Chairman, Minister, how long will it take there are currently no plans to establish a post of Headman of 143 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

Record in Tati Siding. The village situations where patients leave is currently managed at Sub-Chief the hospital or clinic without level and I am content that this is receiving medication due to the adequate for dispensing judicial closure of dispensaries. and other tribal administration ASSISTANT MINISTER services in the village. Thank you OF HEALTH (HON Mr Chairman. MATLHABAPHIRI): Thank KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank you you Mr Chairman. Almost all Mr Chairman. With regard to the dispensaries in Government expansion of greater Francistown hospitals extend operational hours area Honourable Minister, do you beyond 16.30 hours, that is; all not see it having a great influence patients who present themselves in the Tati siding area in the sense at the dispensary before closing that this person alone would not hours are not turned away but be able to do well? Thank you assisted. In most facilities, Mr Chairman. if pharmacist and pharmacy technicians have already knocked H O N O U R A B L E off, patients are given overnight TSHIRELETSO: Thank you doses until the following day. Mr Chairman. We will consider the matter and look into it when Mr Chairman, it is not easy to it happens Mr Chairman. We extend dispensary operational are aware that most people are hours beyond 16.30 hours in going there but for now, we do all facilities due to shortage of not have a vacancy there. When pharmaceutical officers. That is circumstances permit, we will why in most clinics, nurses are the rectify the situation. Thank you ones who dispense not pharmacists. Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman. EXTENSION OF MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you OPERATING HOURS Honourable Minister. When FOR DISPENSARIES IN those nurses who are at the HOSPITALS AND CLINICS dispensaries are not trained pharmaceuticals, is the safety of KGOSI MONNAATHEBE the patients considered? (THAMAGA REGION): asked the Minister of Health H O N O U R A B L E if he will consider extending MATLHABAPHIRI: Thank operation hours for dispensaries you Mr Chairman. Every nurse in hospitals and clinics to curb undergoes pharmaceutical

144 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer training in their general nursing TARRING OF training but at the same time, we MAGOTLHWANE- have those trained specifically for KGOMOKASITWA ROAD the job as pharmacy technicians KGOSI TELEKELO and pharmacists. All of our (MOSHUPA REGION): staff is trained in both areas Mr asked the Minister of Transport Chairman. Thank you Sir. and Communications when KGOSI MONNAATHEBE: Magotlhwane-Kgomokasitwa Thank you Mr Chairman. Is the road will be tarred. Minister aware that there are MINISTER OF TRANSPORT some officers who leave patients AND COMMUNICATIONS at the dispensary at 16.30 hours? (HON RAMSDEN): Thank you H O N O U R A B L E Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, MATLHABAPHIRI: Thank the tarring of the road from you Mr Chairman. It is very Magotlhwane to Kgomokasitwa unfortunate that within our is not included in the National department there are those officers Development Plan (NDP) 10. who still leave patients without However, it will be considered giving them their medication. together with others for They do not do this as a directive upgrading in the future, funds from anyone else but of their own permitting. Thank you Mr will. We have come up with a Chairman. procedure to be followed with KGOSI TELEKELO: Thank regards to dispensing medication you Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman. Others tell patients Minister, I just wanted the to go and ask for their medication Minister to note that when NDP at other clinics or hospitals. The 10 was done, they knew that there procedure is that patients should is a bridge in place, therefore not be told to go and look for there will be a reduction in costs. medication elsewhere, be it a health Thank you Mr Chairman. post or clinic. Rather, the health officials should be the ones who UPDATE ON RENOVATION go out to get that medication. We OF THE SEROWE FEMALE are aware of the shortfalls within PRISON the department Mr Chairman, and KGOSI BOIDITSWE we have taken it upon ourselves (SEROWE REGION): asked to rectify the situation. Thank you the Minister of Defence, Justice Mr Chairman. and Security to update the House 145 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer on the progress made concerning ASSISTANT MINISTER OF the renovation of the Serowe LOCAL GOVERNMENT Female Prison following its (HON TSHIRELETSO): Thank closure in 2009. you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, besides compensation offered ACTING MINISTER FOR by Motor Vehicle Accident DEFENCE, JUSTICE Fund, Headmen of Arbitration AND SECURITY (HON are also entitled to workman’s MOTSUMI): Thank you Mr compensation like any other Chairman. The Department public officer. Thank you Mr of Prisons and rehabilitation Chairman. had intended to renovate the Serowe Female Prison after its KGOSI TELEKELO: Thank closure in 2009 and requested you Mr Chairman. Thank you for the Department of Building and the response provided. Engineering Services to assist in STATE OF MARRIAGES IN costing the project. The project 2009/2010 had to be abandoned due to economic downturn. However, KGOSI BOIDITSWE we hope to resume the project (SEROWE REGION): asked once the economic situation the Minister of Labour and Home improves. Thank you. Affairs to state:- KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank i) the number of registered you Mr Chairman, I would marriages in 2009/2010; appreciate that, since it is a ii) the number of separations hindrance to most of us. that occurred in 2009/2010; COMPENSATION and FOR HEADMEN OF iii) the number of divorce cases ARBITRATION INJURED that occurred in 2009/2010. ON DUTY MINISTER OF LABOUR KGOSI TELEKELO AND HOME AFFAIRS (MOSHUPA REGION): (HON SIELE): Mr Chairman, asked the Minister of Local during the years 2009/2010 the Government if there is any number of marriages registered compensation besides Motor countrywide was 4523 in 2009 Vehicle Accident Fund given to and 5184 in 2010, making a total Headmen of Arbitration if they of 9707 registered marriages are injured whilst on duty. for both years. According to the 146 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

Administration of Justice, which the Minister of Environment, is the authority on matrimonial Wildlife and Tourism to state:- cases, separations are not i) how soon the Makgadikgadi registered as they occur at family National Park fence which level, and may escalate either to was destroyed by elephants divorces or reconciliation. Due to will be repaired; this, we are unable to provide the statistics required. There were ii) what is causing the delay in 672 divorce cases registered in repairing the fence; and 2009 and 542 registered in 2010, iii) the number of livestock bringing the total number of killed by lions since the divorces for the 2 years to 1214. destruction of the fence. I thank you Mr Chairman. MINISTER OF KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE you Mr Chairman. What does AND TOURISM (HON the Minister intend to do in order MOKAILA): Thank you Mr to arrest the situation? Thank you Chairman. The Makgadikgadi Mr Chairman. Pans National Park fence HONOURABLE SIELE: Mr maintenance was scheduled to start Chairman, marriage depends on in the second week of February, couples and their circumstances depending on the volume of water which may lead to differences, in the river and the availability of not on the Government. The labour from the Ipelegeng project. Government cannot interfere Materials have been purchased in people’s lives even though and dispatched to Rakops Wildlife we always advise couples to office. The fence repair was maintain their families and raise delayed because of difficulties their children together. We have experienced in acquiring funds social workers who can always and technical expertise to attend assist if there is that need to to the electrical component of the reconcile families when there are fence. Mr Chairman, in January some misunderstandings. Thank to December 2010, it is estimated you Mr Chairman. that 240 livestock were killed along the western Makgadikgadi THE MAKGADIKGADI Pans National Park fence. These NATIONAL PARK FENCE were mostly cattle followed KGOSI MACHILIDZA by donkeys. Thank you Mr (BOTETI REGION): asked Chairman.

147 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Introduction of a Training Plan Motion KGOSI MACHILIDZA: and basic courses to facilitate Thank you Mr Chairman. Is the training of Dikgosi on the job, fence damaged only where there to gain professional as well as is water, where there is no water, basic qualifications”. Let me can they not do maintenance? request Honourable Members to support me on this motion. HONOURABLE MOKAILA: Mr Chairman, Dikgosi carry Mr Chairman, I believe that the a lot of responsibility in their Honourable Member is aware that duties, something that needs to the fence covers 200 kilometres be addressed by empowering in distance and in some area it is them so that they face all the not fully covered with water. A challenges they encounter, like large part of the fence is where developments that we see in our the game park is. Therefore we communities. They should be will not solve anything since the empowered in order for them animals will still cross over to the to be at par with other people river. Thank you Mr Chairman. who carry higher education KGOSI MACHILIDZA: qualifications since we are aware Thank you Mr Chairman. There that in every Department, Dikgosi is nothing we can do, but we are interact with different people. going to have the foot and mouth Dikgosi are not public servants outbreak. and their training or empowerment MR CHAIRMAN: Just keep on should not be treated as that hoping Kgosi, do not lose hope, of public servants since public it shall be well. servants go for further studies so that they can qualify for higher INTRODUCTION OF A posts when they have completed TRAINING PLAN their studies. However, Dikgosi Motion are there by virtue of being born KGOSI GAREBAKWENA into the Bogosi family. There (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): may be no higher posts to qualify Thank you Mr Chairman. I for but we carry the responsibility would like to present to this of running the developments House the motion which in our communities as well as reads, “That this Honourable being aware of the policies and House request Government to resources. It is important for introduce a training plan that Dikgosi to be trained. They includes orientation courses should have a training plan

148 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Introduction of a Training Plan Motion which should include week long already touched on almost all the courses or even workshops like points that I wanted to present those we attended at Botswana before this Honourable House. I National Productivity Centre was just left with conclusion. This (BNPC). The courses should be training plan will be beneficial if coined in order to fill the gaps funds could be requested for its Dikgosi might have in their work. implementation. Dikgosi should The importance of the courses have an allowance for study should be included in the training leave so that those who want to plan. On top of the courses Mr further their studies can do so and Chairman, it should be allowed resume work afterwards. Those that those who have certain who have some qualifications educational qualifications, who will be fortunate because they can qualify to train for courses will just be going for further like certificate in law, certificate studies. Honourable Members, in development or whatever, during tea break, I had a chat administration; the training plan with the Honourable Minister. should cater for them in order She told me that they support to improve the competencies of this motion, so we basically do these members. There should be not need to spend too much time funds to execute the training plan on it so that she can respond. I do as well Mr Chairman. not know if I have put it the right way. I thank you Mr Chairman. PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR TEA ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BREAK LOCAL GOVERNMENT (HON TSHIRELETSO): Mr MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Chairman, I am not sure if it will Members, you will remember that be procedural for me to continue when we adjourned, we were still even though Kgosi nearly got me on Kgosi Garebakwena’s motion into trouble. I did not ask him to and he had already started to tell you what he has just said. I present. I would like to take this thank you Mr Chairman. time to welcome you back after a short break and we shall hand MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable over to Kgosi Garebakwena to Members, the Honourable continue with his motion. Minister is requesting to be given the floor to respond on the tabled KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: motion. Thank you Mr Chairman. I had

149 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Introduction of a Training Plan Motion KGOSI MOETI II: Thank you the University of Botswana at Mr Chairman. Will that be the end Tautona Lodge. of the debate or we will be given Furthermore, we had a certain another chance to continue? Even training of this kind when we though Government supports this were at Selibe Phikwe which motion, there may be some aspects means this already exists. All that we would like to point out. that is left is implementation in MR CHAIRMAN: If we give our regions. the Honourable Minister the KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH floor then it means from there EAST DISTRICT): I was going we shall hand over to Kgosi to say we should hand over to the Garebakwena to say something Honourable Minister to respond, on the response given by the however, someone had already Honourable Minister. That is proposed that we continue with how it is Kgosi Moeti. the debate. I might as well use the KGOSI MONNAATHEBE: opportunity to debate if there is no Thank you Mr Chairman. I support one else, and then hand over to the Honourable Minister’s request Mr Honourable Minister to respond. I Chairman. I thank you. was once assigned to be a training plan officer at our District. I MR CHAIRMAN: This does came to realise that Dikgosi are not mean we are deterring at a disadvantaged position when Honourable Members from it comes to implementation of debating this motion, if they the training plan because it is strongly want to. designed to address the interests KGOSI KAHIKO III of the Public Service Act in Tribal (GHANZI WEST REGION): Administration. Now what Kgosi Thank you Mr Chairman. I am Garebakwena is proposing is that debating. I do not support this we should look into Bogosi Act motion with reasons that I will lay and see if we can fit the training before this Honourable House. plan specifically for Bogosi. A The training plan is already there training plan should encompass under Tribal Administration, it is cultural aspects and practices. It at headquarters and district level. should have tailormade courses Some Dikgosi were offered this for us. Maybe the Honourable certificate in law, some were Minister has a better answer for trained as he has already stated. us since she has long wanted to We were trained by people from respond.

150 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Introduction of a Training Plan Motion This is a good motion, Mr We are not going to do this alone Chairman. Dikgosi should as Kgosi Masunga has said. We be upgraded through training are going to draw up the plan and because it will give them the then consult with Dikgosi before respect and dignity they deserve. approval, to check if it meets It is very nice to have confidence your needs. The Ministry totally in the office you are seeking supports this motion. I do not assistance from. So I fully wish to be long; the bottom line support this motion. Thank you is we do agree that Dikgosi need Mr Chairman. to be equipped just employees in other departments. I thank you MR CHAIRMAN: I do not Mr Chairman. see any hand, so I will call the Honourable Minister to respond KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: on Kgosi Garebakwena’s motion. Thank you Mr Chairman. I would like to thank Honourable H O N O U R A B L E Members for their contributions TSHIRELETSO: Thank you even though it was just a few Mr Chairman. Let me also who managed to do so. What I thank Honourable Members can say is we are referring to a and Kgosi Garebakwena for programme that will specifically his motion. As the Ministry of be addressing the needs of Local Government, we respect Dikgosi as Kgosi Masunga this Honourable House. When pointed out. It would be aimed at motions are brought before us, developing them and we should we consider them seriously. This have an input when it is drawn. motion is one of those that we Dikgosi will be asked of their highly recommend. As I have individual needs, which will already stated, our Ministry is be incorporated in the training already planning something and plan. Let us be reminded that we this came after recommendation are public servants and it might by the Joint Advisory Committee happen that we may be delegated of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, 2.14.14(5) some assignments nationally which recommended that there and internationally, therefore should be a training plan. We that requires us to be fully and are not referring to orientations effectively equipped. Thank you only, whereby we call Dikgosi Mr Chairman and Honourable for a week. There has to be basic Minister. courses too. Question put and agreed to.

151 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana - Motion RE-EVALUATION AND go back to the drawing board REGRADING OF THE JOB and assess how their job has OF DIKGOSANA been affected by the current developments ever since 1996. Motion When we look at cultural KGOSI GAREBAKWENA issues, we know that there are (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): ceremonies that Kgosikgolo used Thank you Mr Chairman. I would to conduct but due to an increase like to present this motion which in population and international reads, “That this Honourable relations some of the duties House Request Government to related to that have been extended Re-evaluate and Re-grade the job to Dikgosi. As Kgosi was of Dikgosana”. Mr Chairman we proposing yesterday that there all know Government’s intentions should be a Non-Drinking day, concerning this issue. That is why there are other international days I found it important to launch a and Dikgosi participate in those request to the department which kinds of events. As a result, this we fall under. They should look has expanded their job description into this matter with the relevant and we know that Dikgosi work stakeholders to identify what the effectively through the assistance job for Dikgosana entails. We are of Dikgosana. When such events looking at the fact that in 1996, are commemorated, Dikgosi the job description for Dikgosana delegate Dikgosana to run things was evaluated and graded. After on their behalf, working hand in evaluation, it entailed cultural hand with Village Development issues, developments and Committees (VDC) and other arbitration, then it was graded stakeholders. So these duties end at B3. Since 1996, there have up expanding their work load. been so many developments and even the population of the On the issue of development, we country has increased, therefore know that Kgosi was a member of that has affected their workload VDC and Kgosi in this instance, just as we normally see in other I am referring to Kgosana, and departments. The population there were fewer committees. But increase has affected their new developments have called workload. Some departments for expansion of committees like had to be divided due to this health and agriculture committees population increase. So, what I which obviously have increased am suggesting is that we should their workload.

152 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana - Motion Government has decided to take Furthermore, Kgosana should be services and resources to the included in all the developments people. This affects the duties of made under health, education or Kgosi which are cascaded down any other developments in the to Dikgosana. For instance, under community. It has been said that the Ministry of Labour and Home they do not write, writing is not Affairs; on issues of National the main thing here. The main Identity cards, registration of issue here is the practical part of births and deaths, Kgosana is at it and assignments completed. I the forefront when it comes to could go on and talk about other signing and witnessing. I have responsibilities or duties which been informed that those who hold Dikgosana perform, but I will not senior positions in Governmnet, because Honourable Members are paid in accordance with the are aware of them. Even the level decisions and challenges they are at which arbitration is conducted faced with which fall under their has changed because nowadays job description. The same applies people who go there are educated to Dikgosana; there are some and conversant with the law and decisions and challenges at their their rights. And that is a serious level. They also advise Kgosi on challenge for Dikgosana who several issues after conducting have to arbitrate in their cases. an extensive research. The final That is why I am of the view decision that would then be that the workload of Dikgosana taken by Kgosi is strengthened have drastically changed. Even by what Kgosana has said. That though arbitration has been on its own, make their job to be there and continues to be done, important and there is no how it it is more sophisticated and can be taken to be insignificant. more involving because it covers It can not be rated as of less even the intellectuals. On the importance because for Kgosi other hand, our population has to sign for someone to get increased especially in rural- Omang, Kgosana has to make urban villages where there are a recommendation, if they do more people who are under not do that, then our country’s the leadership of Dikgosana. security will be at stake. Even in Well, I do acknowledge that the Agriculture departments, there population differs per village is no how farmers can be given and it is very possible to have a seeds, money or anything without village of higher population led the consent of Kgosana. by Kgosana.

153 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana - Motion The other aspect that brings Honourable House to support me about a challenge which needs on this motion. I thank you Mr assessment is that of mobility; Chairman. locals and foreigners. That on its KGOSI BOIDITSWE own increases the responsibility (SEROWE REGION): We of Kgosi. Back then there do appreciate what Kgosi were just a few of them who Garebakwena is contending for. were then taken to Kgosi for It is what we already know and introductions. So, the increase it is our greatest concern. Our in population has lead to the country is rapidly developing increment of challenges and and Bogosi has taken part in that. through developments, criminal The issue that has been raised activities increase too. This has by the mover of the motion is proved that our Government very crucial when it comes to cannot manage to curb these the roles of Dikgosana. It might criminal activities without the sound like we are advocating for assistance of Dikgosana, they Dikgosana only, leaving others chair all the clusters. So this is behind, when in actual fact, one of the aspects that have led those others have progressed. to the augmentation of duties of Similar issues have been raised Dikgosana. before, concerning the welfare of With those words, I would like Dikgosana. They were brought to urge the Honourable Minister before the Ministry, due to the to look into this motion and if fact that there has never been there is no element of truth in any response from them. This what we have said it can still be makes it appear like we keep on revealed through the information repeating the same issues over received from his reliable and again, when we should be sources. But my request is that seeing progress. There is no this motion be passed, let there evidence to prove that something be a serious assessment into this has been done so far. We have motion concerning the duties of come up with proposals that the Dikgosana. Looking at the time duties of Dikgosana should be re- frame from 1996 up until now, assessed. Mr Chairman, there is a it has been long and we cannot need for one to be appreciated for dispute the fact that things have a job well done and Dikgosana changed. With those words, are working very hard, but no I would like to request this one seems to recognise that. If

154 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana - Motion you are appreciated for a job well to execute. I thought that done, you become motivated but yesterday we were advocating if there is nothing, you end up for Dikgosana to be employed being hopeless and a deadwood. and then have a job description. That is why the mover of the Maybe we should fight for their motion is saying... employment before dealing with the issue of job description. KGOSI SEEMEKO: On a point Maybe we should take one at of clarification Mr Chairman. a time. I am not against what Thank you Mr Chairman. When he is saying, but I am rather we debate a motion, we should suggesting that we take one issue do so in a manner in which we at a time, once we are done, then will all understand. When the we can launch another one. If Honourable Member on the floor we are already talking about says it looks like there is nobody job description, it might create who is looking after the welfare problems or confuse us and even of Dikgosana, is he referring the Minister. I am not against you to Dikgosi or the Minister? He Honourable Member; I was just should be very straight to the offering some advice. I thank point so that we may understand you Mr Chairman. what he is talking about. Thank you Sir. MR CHAIRMAN: Maybe there is the usage of the phrase ‘fighting KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Kgosi one issue while at the same time Seemeko, you are being regulated we are fighting another one’, so or guided by the conditions maybe we should refer to it as of service and also your job addressing one issue at a go. We description which guides you on might scare the Minister if we what to do. I am not talking of start saying ‘fighting one issue at anyone in particular. I support a time’. I thank you. this motion because Dikgosana have got a huge responsibility. KGOSI MOSEKI: Now I am Even our leaders can attest to confused. When Kgosi concluded that. Sometimes when we talk, on job description, I thought there are issues of... we were progressing very well because there are those who have KGOSI MACHILIDZA: I been employed on B3 scale but heard Kgosi talking about the do not have job descriptions. So I job description and that it entails thought we were on track. I thank the duties they are expected you.

155 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana - Motion KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank usage distorts the meaning that you Mr Chairman and even we want to convey and that can Honourable Members who have devalue our discussions. I am not offered their advice. It is good against this, but all that I want is when we advise each other. to bring to our attention the fact The motion reads, “That this that to evaluate means evaluating Honourable House requests something that is on the ground. Government to re-evaluate and I thank you Mr Chairman. re-grade the job of Dikgosana.” KGOSI RAMOKWENA This is the statement before me (MAUN REGION): Thank you which my debate is based on. Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman This Honourable House would I will not be long because be in agreement with me that the mover of the motion has indeed issues like these have long presented it well and gave been submitted to the Ministry substantial examples. Even and our main concern is, where though we are using borrowed is the feedback? In short let me words, there is no way that the just say, with the reasons that I words used in this motion can be have already stated, I support in contradiction with the issue this motion. I thank you Mr of employment that we talked Chairman. about previously. Just to cite an KGOSI MACHILIDZA example, there are two kinds of (BOTETI REGION): Kgosi Dikgosana; there are those who Boiditswe, who was on the floor are employed on permanent and just now, mentioned the word pensionable basis and those who ‘evaluation’. If I recall very well, we proposed that they should evaluation was proposed by the be employed,those who are on Government officers who were allowance. Their job description in charge by then,we familiarised is the same. It is the one that has ourselves with this word. It been used ever since 1996 which applied to those who were includes the allowance and two already employed. The emerging days a week. There is nothing of the word‘re-evaluate’ is what that has changed in it. we have currently proposed Let me highlight that the mover because we want it to be re- of the motion is basically saying assessed. So maybe because that it should be re-evaluated the language that we use is a because we have expressed a borrowed one, sometimes its lot of grievances. Just to cite an

156 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana - Motion example, to give an idea of what for trial, but the money involved Kgosi Garebakwena is saying; two in their cases was way above the years ago, when we were dealing Paramount Chief’s jurisdiction. with these issues of increase in It was between P6, 000/P7, our workload, Honourable Nasha 000. The other case involved a wrote a letter indicating that some cart and it was referred to me. of the things we had written as I managed to conduct that case part of our duties will get us into and finished it in an amicable trouble. What she meant was that, way and everyone was happy we do not write. Even the Director with the verdict. So that shows shared the same sentiments with the amount of responsibility her that we do not write; we just we are faced with. That is why do our job verbally. However, the mover of the motion is that is not the case. If we were to proposing that there should be a visit Government offices, it would re-evaluation because their work be evident that cases that have load has increased. been recorded by Dikgosana are Sometimes we find ourselves in more than those that have been a conflict in Maun because we recorded by Dikgosi Kgolo. These are scared of executing some recordings include witnessing duties, however, our Kgosi for those applying for Identity always urges us to do them as Cards and bank statements. Yet that might reflect badly on our it is said that they do not write. community. We once stated that The population has increased and we are scared of executing those there is need to assist the public. duties. We were not refusing, but Kgosi Moremi cannot ascertain just having some reservations. Identity Cards for Dikgosana in Within two days of not doing Maun excluding those that do not those duties, our Kgotla was filled stay in Maun because she does with multitudes of people; it was not know them, she only knows like they were looking for some them through us. The reason why employment. The work load was we are calling for re-grading is overwhelming. There were about because it looks like Dikgosana 15 people who were applying were not recognised while on the for Omang, from different contrary it is an office that holds Dikgotlana. So if Dikgosi Kgolo the highest responsibility. I want were to witness for their Identity to cite two examples, there were Cards, how would they do it once two men who came to Maun because they do not even know

157 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana - Motion everybody? But as for us, we are and looks for them, when he tells their custodians. We do it from his boss about this, it may appear an informed decision because like he wants an increment. we do an extensive research That is what we are saying here; about these people concerning these issues have been taken up their places of origin and birth. to the Ministry and nothing has If we were to do it without any been done, we want this to be research, Dikgosi would get into corrected. We want things to be trouble because that will mean set straight concerning our duties many foreigners would have so as to reduce the confusion. Identity Cards due to the fact that There are a lot of things which we Dikgosi do not know them. And are told that we are not supposed that is basically what the mover to do but we are doing them. Not of the motion is saying, that there because of our selfish desires or should be a re-evaluation because to get paid for it, we are simply there are changes that have taken responding to the needs of the place and we are no longer mere public. There is no how we can Boralekgotla as one Honourable chase our people away when Minister normally calls us. We they need our assistance, that are Boralekgotla with a lot of is why we are calling for re- responsibility. evaluation. I support this motion because it will create a friendly If one were to look at the daily platform between us and our record of work done by Kgosana leaders since our G overnment and Kgosi, you will find that advocates for transparency. We Kgosi has conducted two cases do not want a situation whereby only and that happens if there is what other people are doing is nothing that might hinder their not recognised. progress. While on the other hand, you will find that Kgosana With those few words, I support has dealt with between 20 and 30 this motion, and I will urge the documents in a day, documents Honourable Minister to take up which we were told not to do. We this issue with her colleagues, are now doing them. This likens more so that she is familiar with us to a herdman who had been it. I thank you Mr Chairman. told that your job is to open the KGOSI LEMPADI gate of the kraal for cattle to go (OKAVANGO REGION): in and out. If he notices that the Thank you Mr Chairman. I really cattle did not come to the kraal do not know what to say. I am of

158 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana - Motion the opinion that our Secretaries that has been raised concerning should have not put this motion the noticing of this motion by in the Order Paper because it our Secretaries. I believe Kgosi was not long ago when we were Lempadi has a proposal and I discussing about conditions think we can respond to that. Are of work for Dikgosana. That we saying this motion should wait motion has been submitted for for the same response that other consideration and we await the motions are waiting for or we response. I am failing to draw should proceed with the debate? the line between that motion and KGOSI RAMOKWENA: Mr this one. When I listen to this Chairman, let me clarify that this debate, I think we are echoing motion is not in contradiction the same words that we said the with what was discussed other day. My opinion is that, yesterday. If different people this motion should be put aside. were to be employed under the I am asking this Honourable same conditions of service that House to conclude debating this Dikgosana work under, we would motion and give the floor to the still raise it up. So we are doing this Honourable Minister to respond to normalise things for those who because we will just be repeating might be employed. Duties are the same words. I thank you Mr still the same; the only difference Chairman. is the type of employment and MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you benefits. Otherwise we execute Kgosi Lempadi, I do not think the same duties. our Secretaries erred because MR CHAIRMAN: I think this motion was brought here the we will give the floor to the way it is. If Honourable Members Honourable Minister to respond share the same sentiments that this because I do not see any hand. motion is the same as the one that has been debated before and that ASSISTANT MINISTER OF it should wait for the responses LOCAL GOVERNMENT too, then I think it should have (HON TSHIRELETSO): been moved accordingly. It was Thank you Mr Chairman. As we the responsibility of the House to have been emphasising on the propose that this motion should issue of democracy, we should be wait for the same response that careful with the way we address other motions are waiting for. Dikgosi as Dikgosana because I was responding to the issue they are our superiors. I take it

159 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana - Motion there is no conflict in terms of of the things which were agreed our hierarchy, so, there is no how to yesterday in this House. My we can demean each other in response will just be brief; we our debates. I was moved when want Dikgosana to be permanent Kgosi said that at times they and pensionable so that they can sign a whole lot of documents have benefits too just like the 203 while Kgosikgolo conducts and 1000 others. This motion only one case which normally was agreed to in this Honourable last for two days. If you were to House, it has been submitted to compare the overall record kept the Ministry of Local Government by secretaries for Dikgosi with and it still awaits consideration the signatures of Dikgosana, you by Parliament. I think you were will find that Dikgosi have done right in advocating for Headmen more work than Dikgosana. May of Arbitration. Today’s motion I urge Honourable Members to reflects a repetition of what has try by all means not to dwell been before. You were right to much on competition because use the word‘re’, because in that can bring conflicts into 2008, there was an evaluation this Honourable House. The of the job for Dikgosi and that way Honourable Members go was when their salaries were on debating this motion, they increased. Our Ministry is aware will end up attacking each of the evaluation that was made other. As the Ministry of Local on the 1st April 2008 not 1996. Government, we do not decide There was an evaluation of the on the upgrading of Dikgotla, job of Headmen of Arbitration but instead Dikgosi who we are because it was realised that they saying do not have much work, do a lot of work and therefore are the ones responsible for the the P800 that they were paid was upgrading. This is meant to not enough, thus an increment. expand on manpower so that We have agreed with you that there will be an effective service something should be done. There delivery in Dikgotlana. is no re-evaluation which can be done because an evaluation has Honourable Members, we are one been done already. Again another entity and when we talk about request has been made that re-evaluating and re-grading for Dikgosana should be treated like Dikgosana and remain silent public officers so that they can on Dikgosi, it is a challenge. I have pension benefits. I share the have not yet responded to some same sentiments with those that

160 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana - Motion are saying Kgosi Ramokwena that no one can turn down. We is repeating yesterday’s motion. did agree to this and presented Even though it is the same it to the Executive. We made an motion, when we talk about evaluation in 2008 for Headmen re-evaluating, it should cover of Arbitration. Honourable all Dikgosi. If we concentrate Members, I do not wish to dwell only on Dikgosana, then it is much on this issue but I am a questionable. bit worried about the spirit of togetherness in this House. In addition, if there are factions in leadership, then we will be faced KGOSI RAMOKWENA: with a huge problem. We have to On a point of clarification. Mr be united. I believe it is the same Chairman, maybe the Honourable thing that has been emphasised Minister has misinterpreted my by Dikgosi in our villages. This statement. I want to clarify the issue is not new, it rather dates point that got her worried, where way back before I even came to I stated that Dikgosi Kgolo do not Local Government. There have have much to do while Dikgosana been queries that some villages write a lot. I was just citing an have expanded but they do not example that most of the times have Dikgosana, that is why Dikgosana do a lot of work as there was an increment. We know compared to the amount of work that in all villages of Botswana, done by Dikgosi Kgolo because there are main Dikgotla like sometimes they conduct just one Ditlharapa, Maaloso-a-ngwana case which can occasionally be and in some villages like Maun, delayed by lack of witnesses. I Serowe and Mokwena, where was not implying that what we Dikgosana are paid. So we had to are doing is more important than include Dikgosana in the payroll theirs. I am one person who is structure because they are the very careful with what proceeds custodians and caretakers. That is out of my mouth. I cannot look why when Dr Nasha was still the down upon my supervisors or Minister of Local Government, belittle their work. That is what it was decided that they should I wanted to clarify. be given allowances so that they Furthermore, we cannot advocate can all be covered. So what you for one group excluding the are advocating for right now is other. We are talking as one for them to have benefits when entity, taking into consideration they retire and this is something all our needs, so it is not like we

161 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana - Motion are focusing on ourselves only. Your supervision is done by What we are basically trying to Dikgosi and that is not a secret. say is that we want to relieve our That is why I said sometimes Dikgosi Kgosi of the workload. when you work with someone; Just to cite an example, it has you should know how your been stated that writing and ranks vary. Right now I work keeping records is beyond our with the Minister, I can not say jurisdiction while on the contrary that I do not want to be under his we are doing it. When we try to supervision or the President, and hand them over to them, we are rather choose to be supervised told that... by some document. I have to know that I am supervised by HONOURABLE MEMBER: my Minister. As an Assistant ...inaudible... Minister I have to know that MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you I can do this and that, and the Kgosi. I think you have clarified Minister can do this.As long as your point. I am his Assistant, I should know that it automatically means I KGOSI RAMOKWENA: am under his supervision. In Thank you Mr Chairman. conclusion, we did an evaluation H O N O U R A B L E in 2008, we still have a pending TSHIRELETSO: Thank you issue that you submitted to us. Kgosi for your clarification. I Since we work closely with you am not saying you are a divided in our Ministry, we realized that group; I said you are one entity Honourable Members want to and even as you debate, you enjoy benefits just like any other should reflect that. I am glad you employee. I believe that at the made that clarification, maybe our end of it all, we will be able to sit misinterpretation did not reflect down and re-evaluate everything you well. You stated that you are that has anything to do with not recognised and that you want Bogosana. As I have already to have your own conditions of stated, when we talk about re- service that will guide you. And evaluation and re-grading, you a question was raised as to who are supposed to include even exactly does not recognise you, upper scales. There is no how we is it Dikgosi Kgolo? You said can cater for Dikgosana only. In no. It was clear that you want our Ministry we know that even the supervision to be done by the Dikgosana are Dikgosi because Ministry or the Act. the uncles and brothers to Kgosi

162 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Re-Evaluation and Regrading of the Job of Dikgosana - Motion are referred to as Dikgosi. If KGOSI GAREBAKWENA re-grading and re-evaluating (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): is going to be done, it will be Thank you Mr Chairman. Let both for Dikgosi and Dikgosana. me start off by thanking all the My request is that, let us all Honourable Members who have be prepared for re-evaluation made their contributions towards because it will automatically this motion. Yesterday’s motion affect the whole structure not was mainly on employment and what yesterday’s motion was today it is about job description. calling for. Honourable Rammidi Employment and job description briefed us about it. We are of the are two different entities; they opinion that it is not yet time can be evaluated individually for an evaluation because one or jointly. I do appreciate the was conducted in 2008. If the Honourable Minister’s response motion is to be tabled again, it and all I can say is that, as she should include both Dikgosi and has already stated, there was Dikgosana because when we talk an evaluation in 2008 and the about re-grading, it is something payments for Dikgosana were that will affect work load as increased to match salaries already mentioned by Kgosi. For for those who were already instance, we have stated that there employed. The main argument should be no writing or record here is that even though there keeping in arbitration because was an evaluation, there is a we have Dikgotla. Arbitration justification for re-evaluation, is all about mediation and back the work load for Dikgosana has then Headmen of Arbitration increased. We are not implying were elected, it did not depend on that they do not appreciate the how related they were to Kgosi evaluation that was done. This but was just by the mere fact that increment in work load has they were the first inhabitants of called for a re-evaluation.I am that place. You are also saying, thankful that bringing this motion since we are many and others has prompted the Honourable have already been covered, let us Minister to explain that an assess. No one is against that. We evaluation should include all. have done an evaluation in 2008 The evaluation that was done had and we still have others pending left out Dikgosana. I appreciate due to time constraints. I thank the fact that this one will be you Mr Chairman. inclusive, if it ever happens.

163 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Installation of Traffic Lights at Major Villages - Motion I would also like to thank the Honourable House and I request Honourable Minister for assuring that you pay attention to it. us that they have already started There are two big villages in my working on yesterday’s motion. area; you might think that I am It will be considered together referring to those villages. These with the one that talks about the villages are Serowe and Palapye payments for Dikgosana and it and I believe that they are not will not cover Dikgosana only mentioned anywhere here. I am but everybody. We have also referring to all villages across been enlightened on the issue of the country. In Serowe, there is filling of gaps, that we should a complaint that has already been have talked about starting from launched. We are not saying the the lowest rank up to the highest. traffic lights should be all over We are very thankful for the the villages, but where needed response given by the Honourable and necessary, especially in Minister because in future, I will major roads that are attached to know the best way to address minor ones. I am citing Serowe issues. With those words, I thank and Palapye because I have seen the Honourable Minister and the problem that they are faced Honourable Members for their with, but even in other villages contributions. like Kanye, Molepolole, Maun, Masunga and other villages there Motion put and agreed to. is the same problem. So this INSTALLATION OF request is for all the villages, not TRAFFIC LIGHTS AT just Serowe Region. MAJOR VILLAGES/PERI So Honourable Members, the URBAN AND TRAFFIC villages that I am referring UPDATES BY POLICE to are peri urban, and I am OFFICIALS requesting for the support of this Motion Honourable House. I am saying they are peri urban because they KGOSI BOIDITSWE are developing. One day when (SEROWE REGION): Thank I was talking to my Zambian you Mr Chairman. If I were to friend, telling him that we are look for the responsible Ministry, staying in rural areas, he told me I will be confused but I want to that we as Batswana tend to refer believe they are there. to towns as rural areas. In their Honourable Members I have country, when they refer to rural tabled this motion before this 164 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Installation of Traffic Lights at Major Villages - Motion areas, they mean settlements. So there are for A1 road. So they these villages are no longer rural should be installed in the village. but peri urban because the traffic Nevertheless, we do appreciate has increased, more especially the ones on the A1 road.. I do not in the morning when going to wish to take long on this; I will work and after hours. In our give others who have a similar village, the road from the main problem a chance to comment. I Kgotla has the highest traffic thank you Mr Chairman. congestion. The other road that MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you connects to Orapa junction which Kgosi Boiditswe. The problem leads to Maun has traffic too and is you have mentioned all these it is more dangerous because it villages except Goodhope, you has a dead end, the one from the even mentioned Kanye. main Kgotla is better because there is a turn. We are not saying KGOSI LEMPADI villages should be flooded with (OKAVANGO REGION): traffic lights because that will Thank you Mr Chairman. I stand call for a bigger budget which here to support this motion and I our Government cannot afford. appreciate the fact that the mover If there are potential places in of the motion stated that he is villages like Molepolole and not only referring to Serowe, but Kanye where traffic lights could rather all the villages across the be installed to facilitate the flow country. Indeed it is a problem of traffic, that should be done. that cuts across all the villages. In Maun there are many vehicles Mr Chairman, this is basically just like in Gaborone. Traffic what I wanted to point out; I lights guide vehicles in order do not want to take a long time to avoid traffic jam because presenting this motion. The this can ultimately cause road other problem is that this traffic accidents that lead to death. I do increases during holidays Mr support this motion, but the main Chairman but if traffic lights challenge is does Government could be installed, it would have enough finances to do this reduce the traffic congestion. In project? Traffic lights play an Palapye, there is too much traffic important role in our villages and by the Police junction and that should be installed basing on the needs traffic lights because there amount of traffic. With those few are basically no traffic lights words, I support this motion. in Palapye, the ones that are

165 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Installation of Traffic Lights at Major Villages - Motion KGOSI MONNAATHEBE one can deny what he has said (THAMAGA REGION): Thank but I will advise that when a you Mr Chairman. Honourable motion is tabled, it should be Members, motions like these accompanied by substantive are very important to us and our evidence that qualifies it. In this communities, more so that we instance, it should include the are the eyes and advisors to the aspects that will make a village Government. Furthermore, this qualify for traffic lights. Even motion touches on the issues of the numbers of these villages public safety. Our Honourable should be stated and the types of Minister will take these issues to vehicles that are driven in those the Cabinet for consideration so villages. This is for the purposes that the project might be included of supporting the reason for in the National Development installation of traffic lights in Plan. I really support this motion a village. If there can be some because most of the times people resistance, we can then pin them lose their lives because of down and say but it has been uncontrolled high speed. It will stated that when we have this not be necessary for me to cite number of vehicles in a village, examples because the mover of there should be this and that. the motion has already done so. In This also happens when tarred Kumakwane road, so many lives roads are constructed. They have have been lost because people to confirm the type of vehicles drive at a very high speed. It is that use the road that they want not the only road, the mover has to construct. There is no one who already cited many others. A lot can resist developments. has been said and there is really When we talk about equal no need for us to be long too. The distribution of wealth, it should Honourable Minister understands be done in villages because that us very well and shall take this is where most of the population motion further for consideration. is. We should not only see them Thank you Mr Chairman. on television. The wealth of the KGOSI MACHILIDZA country should be distributed (BOTETI REGION): Thank you equally and there should be a Mr Chairman. I too would like programme or schedule to be to comment on the motion that followed. For example, there are has been tabled by Honourable times when we are told that there Member Kgosi Boiditswe. No will be electricity installation in

166 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Installation of Traffic Lights at Major Villages - Motion this number of villages. Some of I support this motion basing on the services are very essential to the fact that wealth should be us as the community and there is a distributed equally. I thank you need for them to be brought closer Mr Chairman. to us. The installation of robots KGOSI TELEKELO can be done in phases, it will (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank also give us allowances to check you Mr Chairman. I stand to progress made. I am reminded support this motion because of one incident in Namibia at a when we talk of unadorned time when there were no traffic truth, we are referring to such lights in our country. I went issue as this one tabled by through red robots, because I Kgosi Boiditswe. Sometimes did not know what they meant. it looks like we burden our Services like these ones should Government with so many tasks be taken to our villages so that but that should not be the case our children in schools can be Honourable Minister. I believe familiar with them, not hearing that as Kgosi Machilidza has about them on radios. I believe already stated, we are planning. the mover of the motion has Even though we are saying this, presented it well but the main we know that there is the issue challenge will be money. Since of recession, but it is just to shed we live in these villages, we have light on these issues. Since this an insight of what is happening, is planning stage, if the economy for instance in Palapye, there are improves, let all the requests that too many traffic lights crowded we have put forward be given a in one place which I feel are serious consideration. As already unnecessary. So next time Kgosi stated by Kgosi Machilidza, Boiditswe should table a motion some of the villages should be that requests some of those traffic given first priority. It should be lights in Palapye to be uprooted done in phases, ultimately all the and placed somewhere else. I affected villages will be covered. have never seen crowded traffic Honourable Minister, in your lights like those in Palapye; it response, note that we did not looks like people who installed say this should be done at once them did not know where else which can be very impractical. to place them. So Honourable With those few words, I support Minister, I am of the opinion the motion and I hope I am the last that they should be taken one to comment because many of elsewhere to assist other villages.

167 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Installation of Traffic Lights at Major Villages - Motion us have said a lot concerning this passed. Honourable Minister, let motion. Tholo! I thank you Mr this motion be included in the Chairman. National Development Plan and it shall be done as time goes on KGOSI KAHIKO III taking one village at a time. I (GHANZI WEST REGION): thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I do not know what to say because others have KGOSI SEEMEKO been saying Tholo. This motion (SPECIALLY ELECTED): came at the right time because all Thank you Mr Chairman. Mine along we have been complaining is just to highlight on something. of electricity distribution but now According to Rules of Procedure, it covers many areas. I stand to a Member has the right to move support this motion. Let me talk that the question be put especially about Ghanzi, not because I am if most of the Members share the speaking for my village, but in same sentiments concerning the the same way that the mover was motion on the floor. When I was talking about Serowe. Ghanzi listening to the debate, most of has been declared a township the Members are saying almost but there is no single traffic light the same thing about this motion, and yet there is too much traffic which is why I move that the congestion especially on the road question be put because I do from Arms Hotel passing through not think there is anyone who the bank and going to the old will say anything different from hospital. Again, this traffic light what is being said. Thank you Mr will play an important role on Chairman. students’ lives because they will KGOSI RAMOKWENA have an idea of what it is as they (MAUN REGION): Thank you have never seen it. They have Mr Chairman. I support this motion seen it in drawings only. I once and I would like to point out the drove through red traffic lights in importance of traffic lights. If we Lobatse because I did not know were not faced with the problem them and when the police tried to of financial constraints, we would stop me, I told them that I have be having no challenges because never seen them and they laughed money is not something that you at me. So this will be some form of can easily have. Our Government education to many. Mr Chairman is constrained but this is an I am a man of few words, I important motion. Just to cite an support this motion, it should be example, in Maun there is a four-

168 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Installation of Traffic Lights at Major Villages - Motion way road called Tshekotsheko, MR CHAIRMAN: I believe there are so many accidents that that we have all contributed on occur at that place. If there were this motion. We are only left traffic lights, they would guide with less than three minutes and traffic flow but right now drivers I am not sure if the Honourable do not wait for each other to go Minister will be able to respond through depending on who came in that short period of time. first. I want to point out that ASSISTANT MINISTER OF traffic lights should be installed LOCAL GOVERNMENT in places where there is a problem (HON TSHIRELETSO): of traffic and also in major roads Thank you Mr Chairman. It is like A1 as already mentioned by Government’s intention to install Kgosi Boiditswe. I thank you Mr traffic lights in all the villages Chairman. that need them. As we already MR CHAIRMAN: Even though know, there are some villages we are at liberty to debate this, that have them already. This has let us try by all means to avoid not been included in the National giving too many examples Development Plan (NDP) 10 because I believe everyone has because of financial constraints. got examples that they could cite What I can say to this Honourable too. House is that, it will be included in the next NDP. Traffic lights will KGOSI GAREBAKWENA be installed basing on traffic flow (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): per village. So I cannot say this Mr Chairman I want to briefly motion is not good, I agree with say that it is evident enough that what Honourable Members have there is a serious need to install said. I thank you Mr Chairman. traffic lights in Molepolole. They were installed in one place called KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank Borakalalo but they have never you Mr Chairman, Honourable worked up to date. So I want to Members and Honourable urge the Honourable Minister to Minister. Even as we speak, you go and find out what could be are aware of the traffic problem done about them. Can they not you are faced with in Mahalapye be uprooted from where they are because we are all affected. We and re-installed in another place believe as this is a concern to us, where they can be utilised. Again something will be done about it. to assess ...(inaudible)... Motion put and agreed to.

169 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr Members, our time is up and we Chairman, you had requested still have another motion in the the Honourable Member to try to Order Paper. We shall suspend move closer to the microphone our proceedings for lunch until because you know that he 2:30 p.m. I thank you. speaks at a lower tone. Keep on reminding him to be closer to PROCEEDINGS the microphone. I thank you Mr SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Good KGOSI MMUALEFHE: Thank afternoon once again Honourable you Kgosi Boiditswe and Mr Members and I welcome you back Chairman, for that wonderful to afternoon session. I believe we advice. As I was saying, I request were done with morning motions that this Honourable House and we can proceed with the next supports me on this motion so one. that Government may consider ELEPHANT CULLING IN a way of reducing elephants’ THE CHOBE DISTRICT population because they cause Motion a lot of destruction to people. I remember very well the report that KGOSI MMUALEFHE was given at the recent convention (CHOBE REGION): Thank for endangered species. They were you Mr Chairman, Honourable said to be 150 000 at the time. So as Minister and Honourable we speak, the number has increased Members. I stand here to request because nothing has been done for your support on the motion yet. That is why I am calling for which reads, “that this Honourable their culling because they continue House request Government to to cause a lot of destruction. We reconsider the culling of the are all very much aware that there elephant population in Chobe are so many ploughing fields that District, with a view to selling are destroyed by elephants. Our them to professional hunters efforts of trying to reduce poverty or interested parties in other are in vain because they keep on countries”. Honourable Members destroying what we are trying to the main reason why I have tabled build. this motion is that elephants are terrorising us across the country. The other main challenge is that, They cause a lot of destruction... elephants cannot be scared away with bare hands, they need guns.

170 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion For single women, this becomes with us that the remedy does not a serious challenge because they solve anything. Those who can are forced to watch over their use it are those who have it in fields. These elephants always larger quantities and it is not easy wait for the sun to go down to to have them in larger quantities. launch their attack. They also Again there is a challenge of destroy water generators because where to put it when rain falls they want to drink water too. because the chillies have to be We are working hand in hand burnt. When it rains it will not with our Government as Dikgosi burn. Again the smoke is driven towards fighting poverty because by the wind. The wind can direct our aim is to eradicate it, but the smoke to a wrong direction these animals are a drawback, from where the elephants are, therefore they should be sold. and that means it will not work. Now there are some trusts and Another reason that can individuals who are interested in substantiate this motion buying these elephants. This is Honourable Members is that confirmed by the fact that there there have been questions continues to be increasing cases about the fence destroyed by of elephant poaching in Chobe the elephants. If the fence is Region and they take their tusks. destroyed by elephants, foot Poachers know that Chobe and mouth will easily spread. Region has the highest numbers By way of citing this example, of elephants. That is why I am I wanted this Honourable House advocating for elephant culling to get the importance of reducing in this region. elephants through selling. As for Even though established trusts hunters, quotas for trusts could are meant to address such issues, be increased. The Honourable they end up being meaningless Minister and his office could give because of the continued dispute out a certain number of elephants between animals and people. I that could be sold and killedby believe Honourable Minister will the community. agree with me that indeed there With those words, I do not wish are quotas allocated to these trusts to be long on this issue because but there is no difference. There it is straight forward and it is a is another remedy proposed for concern to Batswana at large. I elephants; using chillies. I want cannot put a blind eye to what the Honourable Minister to agree is happening even though it is

171 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion a serious concern to the public. Wildlife and Tourism. So I will That is why I have tabled this request the Honourable Member motion so that our Government to wait a bit so that we discuss this could take it into consideration. issue. I remember that last year With those few words, I thank you we were issued with handouts by Mr Chairman and Honourable the Honourable Minister which Minister. were from CITES. I know the position of Botswana concerning KGOSI SEEMEKO CITES because she responded (SPECIALLY ELECTED): during CITES conference. Now Thank you Mr Chairman. We it is us who... do understand this issue that is before us, but is it possible MR CHAIRMAN: We have for the Honourable Minister to understood you Kgosi. Pardon clarify something before the floor me for interrupting you. is open for debate. I understand KGOSI SINVULA there is an organisation called (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Convention on International Thank you Mr Chairman. I Trade in Endangered Species stand to support this motion. I (CITES), are we a signatory to remember very well that way it? So I am wondering if it will back when I was a member of be fruitful for us to spend time this House before it changed, debating this motion even though I tabled this motion, but I was we know that at the end it is not not given a proper answer due an issue that we can solve alone to the issue of CITES. As the as Batswana without including Honourable Member has already CITES. Can the Honourable stated, these are concerns that Minister clarify on that? affect us in our country, we are KGOSI MMUALEFHE: the ones feeling the pinch but Thank you Mr Chairman. Pardon we are not implying that these me, I am not opening a dialogue animals are not important to us. with the Honourable Member. Honourable Members, we all I wanted to point out that this know that wild animals have Honourable House is very much increased massively and that aware of that organisation. So is something our Government we are discussing this in our did not anticipate especially own capacity as Batswana not elephants, even though they CITES. CITES is briefed alone reproduce once a year. by Ministry of Environment,

172 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion We have a problem, we are not roads. That is why I am calling able to enjoy the fruits of farming for a consideration because these because of elephants and other animals will bring human race wild animals. Elephants destroy to extinction. As for farmers, everything. Currently as we they will never get to enjoy the are speaking, they have started fruits of their labour. If it is not invading villages and even possible to kill them, then let schools like one school in Kgosi them be sold to people. We have Mmualefhe’s region. Even fences heard that some local trusts have are destroyed by these elephants been selling around 10 elephants, and we have raised concerns even other various animals have about this but to no avail. been sold to other countries and they have been transported by We have wildlife officers who aeroplanes. I fail to understand do not have the authority to why this can not be done with shoot the animals; we just report elephants when they continue the destruction caused by these to cause serious destruction to animals, but they do nothing. people. Honourable Members, I As I have already stated, the law do not wish to be long. I thank does not allow elephant culling. you Mr Chairman. Negotiations should be held with CITES to make them aware of the KGOSI LEMPADI serious challenge we are faced (OKAVANGO REGION): with in Chobe and Botswana at Thank you Mr Chairman. We are large. These animals cause a lot all aware of the serious concerns of destruction and we live in about elephants in Ngamiland and fear. They even destroy houses; even the Honourable Minister is in Kasane they stay in people’s aware of that too. We are faced yards from sunset to sunrise. with a challenge in our region; These are living examples. elephants even kill people while they are working. People working If my memory serves me right, for Ipelegeng have been killed there are about 8 or 9 people who by elephants. In our farms, they have been killed by elephants. destroy our boreholes. What That is how dangerous these surprises me is that if people animals are, but back then we were to be attacked by an army; knew that elephants were scared our Government will do whatever of human beings and their smell. it takes to protect them. Now, Nowadays they do kill people and when we are attacked by our own even chase vehicles away from

173 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion animals, our Government is not no good done by these animals. responding, it is something that I Maybe to highlight something fail to understand. The record of to you Honourable Minister, deaths caused by elephants is kept in our neighbouring countries and even submitted to the Ministry like Namibia and Zambia, these of Environment, Wildlife and animals are killed, that is why Tourism. Honourable Members, they have sought refuge in our Government should kill these country. Elephants in their animals if she is not willing to nature are scared of guns. Back reduce them through quotas. in the days, they were found in There used to be marked areas National Parks like Beetsha and for hunting back then. Elephants Gudigwa not just everywhere. were reduced through the quota If Government decides to start system and people had to compete killing 50-200, they will move in order to qualify to kill them. If away from people and their CITES is the one that has stopped fields. It is not that we do not like this system, our Government them, it is the way they make us should group them in one place live. We have run out of ideas and kill them. Then their tusks because it is not everybody who and teeth could be stored because owns a gun. I know there is a they never rot. They can be stored law that allows owners of fields for 10 years and they will still to kill elephants if they destroy be good. For them to continue their fields, but it is unfortunate killing people in large numbers because we do not all have guns. is so unbearable. These elephants Something should be done about invade people’s homes and attack this. I thank you Mr Chairman. them; we are not referring to a KGOSI MALEMA (BOBIRWA situation whereby people go to REGION): Thank you Mr where they are. Chairman. I stand to support Honourable Minister, can this motion. Elephants do your office not come up with a cause massive destructions. I better way of preventing these remember very well that they elephants from killing people? once terrorised us in our region as Even though there is CITES, already mentioned, but because can your office do something we fought back, their numbers because now people live in decreased. They killed people, great fear. They even destroy but we shot them and they re- vegetation. There is absolutely located to Tuli Block.

174 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion They do not only kill and faced with a serious challenge destroy fields, they also destroy and this is something that we hear vegetation. Tuli Block is the of in radios. I was once moved worst of them all because there by one incident and I started to are no trees but I always hear our realise that elephants should be Government emphasising on the kept in limited numbers. It killed issue of conservation of trees. one gentleman when they were That does not work because riding motor bikes, they tried those trees are not protected. to run but it was fruitless. So If people cut down trees, it is these are serious concerns that an offence but if we were to continue to be raised because compare the destruction caused these elephants do not only by animals to that of people, you cause destruction, they also take will realise that it is worse. So let away precious lives. Currently there be a better way to address Government funds farmers with these destructions and killings. I money for ploughing, so in a support this motion and let it be way these elephants are causing taken into consideration. I thank a drawback to Government’s you Mr Chairman. efforts more so that majority of people do not eat its meat. If its KGOSI BOIDITSWE meat was enjoyable, it would be (SEROWE REGION): Thank better, but we have heard that it you Mr Chairman. I will be brief is not tasty. All it can do is to on this. I support this motion. I destroy. Now the Honourable am wondering if there will ever Minister is listening, he is faced be peace between humans and with a challenge of heading a elephants because it looks like very controversial and difficult there is a huge conflict, its main Ministry which can make people reason being destruction of hate you. Nevertheless, there is property. a request that needs to be taken Honourable Members, I believe into consideration. that when such a motion is I do not know how far we are with tabled, it is a skeleton and by way the usage of chillies. We once of debating it, we are beefing it heard that it is very effective, up and the Honourable Minister now I do not know where it will pick up the main points that has vanished to. Mr Chairman, will be used to substantiate his elephants cannot inhabit the presentation. Those who stay in same place inhabited by people. areas that elephants inhabit are

175 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion I remember that I once visited of the farm. The chillies method Kasane and spent the night at does not work just as Kgosi prison houses. There was a huge Mmualefhe has already stated gate there, but when we woke because it is controlled by the up, the gate had been destroyed direction of the wind. Elephants by the elephants. It did not get sometimes think almost like into the yard; it just destroyed humans, when the wind blows the gate and then left. So there against them, they know how to is no how people can live with avoid it. I do not know why it is this kind of animals. Something difficult for them to be reduced should be done about it. People because it is not like they will get are complaining of lions, finished. elephants and buffalos which fall I thought the Honourable Minister under your Ministry. There is a was the Minister of Environment, challenge in your Ministry, try Wildlife and Tourism, but it looks and do something. Thank you. like things have changed because MR CHAIRMAN: They are issues of environment do not even complaining of Mophane affect his Ministry. Wherever worm which falls under his there are elephants, there can Ministry. never be trees and they know how to cut trees as already stated KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA by Kgosi Malema. In our region, REGION): Thank you Mr we no longer have tall mophane Chairman. I stand to support this trees; they are all cut short. Even motion. I am just wondering why in Chobe, there are no trees. it is difficult for this to be done Those who normally cut down because we used to have the same trees for firewood are better than problem in our region but the elephants but the Honourable Honourable Minister saw it fit for Minister complains more about them to be reduced by giving us them. That implies that he does a certain number to sell. This was not care about the environment. done looking at the destruction that the elephants were causing The other time when we were just like it is happening today. driving from Nata, before we Elephants love water melons too reached the gate, I had to ask much, once they are ready, the the driver to drive back because elephants will invade your farm I realised that there was an whether you like it or not. They elephant coming towards us, it will take over from the owner was going to kill us. When I saw

176 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion that it was facing us, I asked the and maybe they do not have an driver to rev the car because I had insight of what we are going heard that when you do that it through here, they are just told. will go away, but instead it came They have never come to our to the centre of the road. We then country to see the numbers that decided to take a different road. we are talking of. I do agree with what Kgosi Mmualefhe was The other time I went to saying, there should be a way Kazungula and I saw a shock of of reducing them like selling. If my life. It was around 5 o’clock, the Government is not willing to a huge number of buffaloes had sell outside, then there should be blocked the road and it was dark. raffles or quotas with specified We were not sure if we would times and numbers through which be able to pass so we stopped Batswana are allowed to kill just until a big truck came and scared like in the old days. Batswana them out of the road by honking, will not kill them excessively then that is when we were able because they know they cannot to pass. eat them. I support this motion Mr Chairman, these elephants Mr Chairman. are just too many in Chobe. They The rate at which these elephants have even gone up to that fence multiply yearly is way too much. that passes from Sese to Serule I want to urge the Honourable and through to Thalemabele. Minister to cater for environment Sometimes they terrorise even too not wildlife only, and human herd men when they are herding beings should be given the first livestock. That shows that they priority when it comes to welfare. are everywhere and they need I thank you Mr Chairman. to be reduced, we will not finish them. Maybe it will be better for MR CHAIRMAN: Thank tourists to go and see them at you Kgosi. Bangwaketse know National Parks. Killing a person nothing about elephants, so they is something that is unbearable should keep quiet. and even tourists will lose interest KGOSI MACHILIDZA because they cannot enjoy (BOTETI REGION): Thank something that kills people. you Mr Chairman. Well you are Mr Chairman, CITES personnel telling the truth, but normally a are not in our country, they are grieving person is comforted by staying there in their countries those who are not grieving. Mr

177 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion Chairman, I support this motion There is an organisation called tabled by Kgosi Mmualefhe. CITES, which our Government When we talk about elephants, is a signatory to. We are not sure we are not doing it to please the whether CITES is responsible for mover of the motion, but we are compensating all the damages doing this because we experience caused by elephants. A lot of the destruction they cause back questions have been asked about in our villages. We were taught responsibility of compensation on how to live better with these for people who have been killed animals and how we can benefit by elephants. Some of them from them especially elephants. were breadwinners in their The emphasis is on benefits, and families. Our Government has little is said about the negatives. turned a deaf ear to all these. We appreciate that we ought CITES should come and talk to live with these animals and to Batswana and explain their look after them. I believe a lot position. Suggestions have of people have ceased poaching. already been made that since We appreciate the education on CITES is responsible for the how to live with animals but protection of elephants, we the challenge is that they pose a would like the Honourable danger to us. Mr Chairman, our Minister to ask them to open a lives are in great danger in Boteti market for elephants. I know Region. Some people lose their that they are not going to accept. lives and the elephants make That market will be responsible it easier for cattle to mix with for all elephants killed and it buffaloes. Boteti has around will also decide on when to sell 170,000 to 180,000 cattle, and the tusks. We cannot afford to we are scared that foot and mouth be impoverished by animals, as disease will affect our cattle. As humans we have the thinking I am speaking, my cattle are capacity, so, we have to find a in Makalamabedi. They were solution for the future. There is quarantined because of foot and a saying which goes ‘prevention mouth. I am worried because is better than cure’, however; I see elephants are already in in this case, it is like we have Boteti. If it was possible for succumbed to a scurge. It is me to change how I feel about so painful. I believe that our this situation; I would change Government should stand up because it is so painful. for things like these and not take people’s lives for granted.

178 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion These 170,000 cattle do not they might spread diseases, even benefit Boteti region alone, they though they do not spread foot also create jobs for people at the and mouth disease, they destroy Botswana Meat Commission fences and as such pave way (BMC) and the Veterinary for buffalos which spread the Department. disease. Though Boteti region is directly affected now, if the Even when Government plans, buffalos reach zones which cattle are included in those supply European Union (EU), plans. Foot and mouth outbreak you will see what I am talking will affect the numbers of these about. If areas like Gaborone and cattle. I know there will be an Kgatleng are affected, Lobatse outbreak. As we speak, the fence BMC will close down. So these is damaged and by the look of things should be attended to things; it will not be repaired as a matter of urgency.There anytime soon and yet we are was a time when we had foot talking about CITES. The reason and mouth ourtbreak, our first why some people take some President ensured that we are organisations to court is because provided with free education.We of situations like these. We should were suffering because of this also take CITES to court because disease. Now we have educated it does not care about our welfare people in our midst, they should and it looks like it is above the hasten to arrest the situation. Government. Mr Chairman, I am not angry, In 2006, there were about 154,658 it is only that I am speaking out elephants. They are probably of fear and pain. This is like a 170,000 to 180,000 as we speak. natural disaster which is about to They are too many, that is why hit us and therefore we ought to they are roaming around. We be prepared in Boteti and other used to hear about elephants in regions which are said to be safe. Gweta and very far placesand by then they were few in numbers. Mr Chairman, with those words, Now they have increased. I support the motion. We know that resolutions from this House HONOURABLE MEMBER: may be adopted or not. We do They are in our region. not know what qualifies that, KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Kgosi however, in this instance, we are has already said they are in their talking about people’s lives. I region, Sese. In other regions, thank you Mr Chairman.

179 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion KGOSI RAMOKWENA nothing about it. When I invited (MAUN REGION): Thank you you to my farm the other day, I Mr Chairman. I stand to support this wanted to show you that they had motion.This challenge has been damaged the fence around my raised before, not only in Chobe, farm, five times. I spent about P3 it affects the whole of Botswana. I 000 excluding labour even though remember that just recently when I was supposed to include it the Honourable Minister was in because I was repairing it with my our region, I invited him to my assistants. Your Ministry asked me farm to see what was happening, to come and collect compensation unfortunately, his schedule was and I was only given P112. If it tight. The most painful thing is was possible, the Honourable that there are areas secured for Minister would go with us to our elephants, these are large areas farms to see what we are talking which are not congested. They about. Just recently, they called should be guided to live in their me from the farm informing me habitat, not with people. If the that the elephants have destroyed Honourable Minister was not the fence again and other people’s bound by CITES, he would do cattle got into my farm. something because he can see Maybe a tender should be awarded how Batswana are suffering. If to us to kill these elephants; we you kill four elephants, they will will use our guns and some from move away and maybe come your Ministry. This is something back after 5 years to check out that can be done, we should push the place. If it hears a gun shot, it them back to their designated will never come back. As for the areas. If your livestock is fatalities, I do not wish to dwell damaging people’s property, you much on them because even the need to do something about it, Honourable Minister is aware of like selling so that you can keep them. a manageable size. Just recently, in a village called The same applies to children, if Komaneng, 2 kilometres from they harass people, you can not Maun, an elephant killed a young say they are not my children boy who had been sent by his alone, they belong to the whole parents to a tuck-shop. The most community. If anything, you can painful thing is that these animals tell people to take alternative continue to damage our property routes like taking them to court and your Ministry is doing or police. I want to finish off

180 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion by saying that these elephants KGOSI SEEMEKO are causing damage to us and (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Mr something should be done. For Chairman, I just want to confirm you to be in the position you to the House and the mover of are in, it is through the vote the motion that when I sought of members of the public, not clarification from the Minister, elephants. We do love these I was not implying that I am elephants but people must come against the motion. I just wanted first. God gave dominion over the to understand the situation. animals not the other way round, There is no how I could not so they should not oppress us. support this motion when I come from the affected region. There We are not also implying that is no one who can deny the fact these animals are yours only that elephants cause massive Honourable Minister, they destruction and we have lost belong to us all. There should be some of our relatives because of a way of pushing them back to them. If there is something that their designated areas. I want to the Government can do despite invite you Honourable Minister the fact that she is a signatory to to come to Maun so that I take an organisation, then I support you to Dibajanja and Diyei, to this motion. I do not wish to be see the land that I am referring to. long, I share the same sentiments It is huge enough. The only way with the rest of Members who to chase them back is by using have already spoken. Thank you guns, just for two days, they will Sir. go for good. KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI The other day when I was from REGION): I stand to support this Maun, I found three women motion. Honourable Minister, blocked by elephants both infront we are sending you to CITES and at the back. Since some of us to make a request on our behalf have some experience on how concerning the destruction caused to chase them away, we revved by elephants. If it is possible, the car until they went away. the Honourable Minister should The other thing is that they hate delegate officers to go around people; they will cut trees and the country to film the samples drag them into the road. I believe of the destruction caused by the the Honourable Minister will be elephants as well as our concerns. able to do something very soon. I You should also have the statistics thank you Mr Chairman.

181 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion for casualties due to elephants. us. So when the Honourable Maybe it would substantiate your Minister responds to this issue, request. We are aware that you he should take into consideration have been trying to reduce their the patience of Batswana who numbers but CITES is against have been affected by elephants that. These are the things that we through all these years. were talking about, that Dikgosi There are a lot of tragedies that should be included during the they have experienced because of signing of the conventions so that elephants. Since I went outside to they may advise where needed. attend to Chairman’s assignment, These are the very same things I do not know if there was any that create problems for us. Member who mentioned that The reason why we are sending there may be a temptation to you to CITES on our behalf is revenge which can land someone because they are the ones who into trouble, as CITES and have the last say. We know that the Government would send we are in this together, because them to jail. Things are getting you understand the challenges worse, the Honourable Minister we are facing, the stumbling should respond to this before block is CITES. In the next two the situation gets out of hand. If years, elephants will be roaming they were to come to Ngwaketse the streets of Gaborone, they are region, maybe we will not be as not scared of people. This issue patient as those in other regions. should be addressed accordingly. The Honourable Minister should That is all that I wanted to say. I not give the same response he thank you Mr Chairman. gave when he was responding MR CHAIRMAN: Bangwaketse to Kgosi Sinvula’s question, know nothing about elephants, so when Kgosi was requesting for theirs will just be to waste time. something to be done concerning the rising waters that hinder KGOSI TELEKELO people from ploughing. This (MOSHUPA REGION): This issue should be treated with does not only affect some parts urgency because it is not good to of the country, but all of us. lose your loved ones because of I am not sure if some of the elephants. The usage of chillies Members from our regions have is not effective as the mover of already said something because the motion has already stated. Mr what affects them also affects Chairman even though you did

182 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion not want me to speak, I wanted MINISTER OF to show that I am with these ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE people. If they are affected, we AND TOURISM (HON are all affected. My mother was MOKAILA): Thank you Mr born in Kachikau and that means Chairman. Let me start off by I am their relative. I thank you apologising, I was held up this Mr Chairman. morning, I had some few errands to attend to. It is a disadvantage KGOSI MOETI II to have no assistant. I was called (SPECIALLY ELECTED): by my supervisor this morning Thank you Mr Chairman. I wanted and it took long. I was aware to point out that the Honourable of this motion and I had asked Minister should take into serious other Honourable Ministers consideration all the concerns that to call me when the motion is have been raised by Honourable about to be debated, which they Members concerning the did. However, I was still held up destruction caused by elephants. when they called. Maybe CITES is against some of the things that could work for There are 12 Members who us in protecting our farms and debated this motion. I understood livestock. In his response, the you well but I will try as much as Honourable Minister should also possible to explain a few things update us on the position of CITES before I give the answer, so that and their reasons which seem to we may be on the same level of be in conflict with our opinions understanding. First of all I want here concerning these elephants. to say that there is nothing that is If there is anything confidential hindering us from killing all the that CITES is planning, we need elephants. The only challenge is to be informed. In that way, we the amount of money needed to will raise our concerns from an do that. We would need a lot of informed perspective knowing money because our elephants are that CITES is planning something in very far places. better for us. Furthermore, maybe Secondly, the storage facilities for the Honourable Minister should all the tusks and other reserved take a visit to those regions, even parts cost a lot of money too. some Honourable Members who For example, we have only one have not seen what we are talking storage facility here in Gaborone about should do so. I thank you Game Reserve, it has cost around Mr Chairman. P15 million, and from there

183 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion it needs P1 million a year for KGOSI GAREBAKWENA maintenance. I am trying to show (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): the costs that will be incurred if Can the Honourable Minister we are to store tusks for 150 000 clarify what he means when elephants. Note that the one we he says it will be difficult to have cost P15 million and it does kill elephants in very far places not store lots of tusks. Mind you because Honourable Members I did not include the costs for have been saying that elephants killing those elephants. It would invade their villages. cost a lot of money. The second HONOURABLE MOKAILA: reason... Thank you Mr Chairman. Let KGOSI RAMOKWENA me request to be given an (MAUN REGION): On a point opportunity to conclude my of clarification. Thank you Mr response because at this rate, we Chairman. It looks like the will not finish. Right now we are Honourable Minister is touching saying that Botswana can only on the issues that we did not talk accommodate around 80 000-85 about. We have never talked about 0000 elephants. We have almost killing all the elephants. We are 160 000 as of now, which means talking about a very small number we should reduce almost half of which does not involve any cost. them. That half will be the one We are talking about driving them that Botswana will be able to back to their designated areas. maintain. I want to point out that There is no how we can advocate there is no law that prohibits us for wiping out all animals that God from killing half of them but for has given us, it will not be proper. us to kill that half; we will need a We have been emphasizing on the lot of money. point that we love these animals; Now I want to talk about CITES they are ours together with the which we are a signatory to. We Honourable Minister. We are saw it fit for us to be a member saying we should come up with of this organisation because all strategies of reducing them, not countries across the world are wiping out. I wanted to clarify members. These countries are that, Mr Chairman. I do not think responsible for the decisions made there is any Honourable Member by the organisation. Members here who would want all elephants who did not agree with us are to be wiped out. I thank you Mr African countries who do not have Chairman. elephants. These are the East, West

184 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion and North Africa, but in Southern we went with some Dikgosi to Africa, we share the same The Hague in 2005/2006. We had sentiments on reducing elephants. video clips of people in Kachikau CITES states that for a country to and other places where there are sell elephant parts, there has to be elephants, demonstrating how an agreement between the CITES elephants terrorise them. We and that country. Now getting into ensured that they were translated my argument, if we were to sell into English. Those are some of elephant parts, we would have no the things that we displayed in market because there has to be an The Hague when we were there agreement between CITES and with some Dikgosi from Chobe. us as it is the one that controls the We went with them so that they market. For a country to seek for can bear testimony that indeed the permission from CITES, it has to issue of elephants is disturbing be a member. in Botswana. The videos are still there, if Honourable Members Now going into the third issue wish to see them, we can bring concerning CITES. There are four them so that they can see that it is countries in appendix 2 of CITES, not that we are against what they these are Botswana, Namibia, are saying. It is only that we are South Africa and Zimbabwe. against many at CITES. In Africa, Countries in appendix 2 are the 90 per cent of elephants are in ones that can sell elephant parts if Southern African Development CITES permits and the rest of the Community (SADC), the rest of countries are in appendix 1; they Africa does not have elephants, yet do not have the licence to sell. they are the ones that are against We are better off because we have our submissions on dealing with been selling them. As I speak, we elephants, Kenya is one of them. managed to buy 36 vehicles using You must realise that Africans are money obtained from tusks. They the ones who are in disagreement. will be distributed across the So that is basically what I wanted country to assist in places where to bring to your understanding there are elephants. That is one Honourable Members. advantage of being a member to CITES. One Honourable Member Let me touch on the efforts suggested that we should invite that we have implored to try to members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi to help Batswana on the issue of attend some of these meetings. elephants. Kgosi Mmualefhe can If my memory serves me well, testify to the effect that efforts have

185 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion been made by establishing trusts. we are not working towards In his region, they established achieving the same goal. a trust called Chobe Enclave Batswana who live in areas where Conservation Trust (CECT), there are wild animals are the which I believe is the only one ones who the Government gives that has a huge amount of money quotas to, so that they can protect in Botswana. They have about 8 themselves from the animals and million to 10 million in the bank improve their lives. This is not as we speak. The main objective happening, however, it is not the of these trusts was to use funds Minister’s fault alone, we are all generated by natural resources, to blame. We could have used animals, environment and this money to assist those who tourism to protecst themselves have been affected by animals. against animals. Again Kgosi can The other thing is that the major testify that they have not built a source of employment in Chobe is fence in their region to control tourism. Without tourism, Chobe the movement of elephants and would not be what it is today. demarcate farming areas and Our concern here is not really animals. That worries me as the poverty; it is just complaints on responsible Minister. This is the damage caused by elephants. because Government has made People of Chobe are the first an effort to create quotas for their ones to have a trust which has region so as to generate income deposited around 8 million in on yearly basis. That is around an account. So, let us not only 400 elephants on yearly basis but concentrate on the negatives, let they never sell all of them. This us also show the positives. As I number excludes Batswana who have already pointed out, internet buy licences off the shelf. I was cafes in regions like Kachikau just citing Chobe as an example. have collapsed or stopped Over and above the huge sums of operating due to negligence. Now money they have, they also run I am surprised that Honourable internet cafes in all their villages. Members do not talk about other They also have tractors that positive things. Even the tractors they have bought using money that they bought using the money generated through selling of from this trust are generating elephants but when the very same more money for them. elephants that generate income for them damage their property, We have a Project on elephants they kill them. This shows that in Kasane, which was funded at

186 Thursday 27th January, 2011 Elephant Culling in the Chobe District - Motion around 15 million US Dollars. They once killed them in South Pardon me Mr Chairman, I did Africa at the Kruger National not wish to take long responding, Park. They were just 5000 and it is only that I was touched by the Kruger National Park is what Honourable Members said, very small, so it was easier to do so I wanted to defend myself that. In our case, to transport the before I address issues which tusks from where we would have have been raised. That money is killed the elephants to the storage meant to assist people who live facility would just be too much. with elephants, I am referring to Even though I understand where the issue of KAZA; Kavango, you are coming from, these are Zambezi, Trans- Frontier some issues that hold me back Conservation Area.We know from agreeing with you. All we why elephants do not cross over can do is to try and utilise the to Namibia, Angola, Zambia money from these trusts for the and Zimbabwe. Research has intended purpose. On Sunday proved that they do not live under Mr Chairman, I will be leaving conducive conditions. They are for Gudigwa, Beetsha, Eretsha, poached. So, Angola, Botswana, Gunitsoga, Seronga, Shakawe Namibia, Zambia and Zimbabwe and Gumare on the mission to have agreed to create similar assist the community on how to habitat for these animals to reduce utilise this money and strategies the congestion on our side, this to reduce the challenges we have will enable the animals to cross been referring to. Therefore, over to these countries. I went to Mr.Chairman, I understand the Kasane and Ngami council to talk basis for this motion but as of to them, those are the measures now, we are not in a position to that we have taken. do as the House requests. I thank We have tried to donate some you Mr Chairman. elephants to other countries KGOSI MMUALEFHE: like Mozambique. We also Thank you Mr Chairman. The donated 10 elephants to Tunisia Honourable Minister once but translocating them, is just informed this House there is prohibitive. Yet we are talking money which had been generated about countries that are richer through selling elephant tusks. than us. So these are some of the He said it was around 57 reasons that deter us from killing million. Is it not possible to take them to reduce their numbers. this money and build storage

187 Friday 28th January, 2011 Chairperson’s Remarks facilities so that we may reduce procedure. I believe that we their number? The other one shall update each other about the relating to money for CECT was situation tomorrow. All we know not really answered. as of now is that he is getting well and it is our request that we MR CHAIRMAN: Pardon me continue praying for him. Kgosi, I would appreciate it if you could summarise. MOTION KGOSI MMUALEFHE: ADJOURNMENT Thank you Mr Chairman and The House accordingly adjourned Honourable Minister. We have at 4 o’clock until Friday 28t h heard your response but we are January 2011 at 9:30am still not satisfied. Friday 28th January, 2011 MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Kgosi Mmualefhe. Honourable THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. Members, we have come to the (CHAIRMAN in the Chair) end of the motion and as it is the P R A Y E R S procedure, let the question be put. * * * * Question put and agreed to. CHAIRPERSON’S We have come to the end of REMARKS today’s business. We were informed yesterday that the MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI former Chairman of this House LOTLAMORENG II): is not feeling well and I believe Honourable Members, some of us would like to go Honourable Ministers and all and check on him on behalf of who are here I greet you with this Honourable House. He is Pula. Let me take this opportunity an elder, not only age wise but to welcome you this morning. in terms of status in the nation Yesterday we expressed our as well. So, we believe there is appreciation for the improved some protocol to be followed working relations. We appreciate before we can go and see him. what you are doing Honourable We are still awaiting a response Ministers. I know the Media is from his office concerning the not going write that you have arrangements. We do not want been applauded for attending a situation whereby we will go Ntlo ya Dikgosi because they are to the hospital only to find that only interested in reporting about we have not followed the right negative isues. 188 Friday 28th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

Honourable Members we can their contracts of employment start our business for today and terminated prematurely, thus you will realise that the first creating a situation of insecurity question in the Order Paper is not at work. However, this matter supposed to be there, that is why has not been officially reported there is a corrigendum. to my office. Even if it were, I would opt to tread with caution QUESTIONS FOR ORAL in dealing with this matter. ANSWER My Ministry is not in a position PREMATURE to intervene in such cases to TERMINATION OF protect the welfare of coaches COACHES’ CONTRACTS and their families from financial KGOSI BOIDITSWE embarrassment owing to the fact (SEROWE REGION): asked that the Ministry is not privy the Minister of Youth, Sport and to the contents of the contracts Culture: signed between these parties. Furthermore, it is believed that i) if he is aware that coaches the clubs/teams and coaches for Premier League and 1st under reference agree on Division teams have no certain deliverables within the job security in that their performance contract and it is contracts of employments likely that the contract also spells can be terminated out possible consequences that prematurely; and will emanate from inability to ii) if so, is the Ministry in a perform to expected standard. position to intervene in Hopefully, the contracts are done such cases to protect the in accordance with the Botswana welfare of coaches and Labour Laws. their families from financial I however, wish to advise that embarrassment resulting where an employee thinks that from such termination. his employment contract has MINISTER OF YOUTH, been terminated unfairly, he/she SPORT AND CULTURE is at liberty to report the matter (HON KGATHI): Mr Chairman, to the nearest District Labour I have often learnt through Office. Such an action will be the media that some coaches consistent with Section 7 of the for some Premier League and Trade Dispute Act. First Division teams have had

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Finally, the Ministry of Youth, Minister of Environment, Wildlife Sport and Culture is also unable and Tourism what programme/ to intervene as the Federation projects have been implemented of International Football since the completion of the Association (FIFA) is against Okavango Delta Management political interference in the Plan (ODMP) Report. management of football. MINISTER OF I am afraid that any effort by the ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE government to suggest a resolution AND TOURISM (HON and/or enquiry into matters of this MOKAILA): Thank you Mr nature will be deemed as political Chairman. Some of the projects interference and thus the Botswana that were implemented by various Football Association (BFA) would agencies since completion of the run the risk of possible sanctions plan include: by FIFA. ●●A project to address human- Thank you. wildlife conflict in northern Botswana hot spots including KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank the eastern panhandle. you Mr Chairman. Honourable Minister, do these teams fall ●●The review of the Concession under your Ministry or they are Lease Agreements and the independent, they can do as they Wildlife Management Area please? I thank you. Regulations as well as the development of manual for HONOURABLE KGATHI: enhancing the Tawana land MR Chairman, this is how things Board members Knowledge are, there is a Ministry, and of Biodiversity. then there is Botswana National Sports Council (BNSC). It is ●●Upgrading of the Okavango a Football Association but it Delta Information System also has affiliates like Notwane, (ODIS) to improve Rollers and so forth. accessibility of information to planners in the district. IMPLEMENTATION OF OKAVANGO DELTA ●●Development of a Code MANAGEMENT PLAN of Conduct for Fisheries REPORT which was launched in 2010, development of Aquaculture KGOSI MOREMI Guidelines, zoning and (BATAWANA): asked the setting aside of fish breeding 190 Friday 28th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

areas purposes as well as to inform the community about the establishment of fishing these projects. I thank you. cooperatives in Tubu. CONSTRUCTION OF A ●●Establishment of Joint ROAD TO MIDDLEPITS Management Committee JUNIOR SECONDARY between the communities SCHOOL of Tubu and the adjacent KGOSI TOTO II concessionaire to deal with (KGALAGADI SOUTH): asked access to resources, their use the Minister of Transport and and conflict resolution. Communications what factors ●●Other projects include prevented the construction of addressing of congestion a road branching to Middlepits in Moremi Game Reserve, Junior Secondary School up to creation of non hunting buffer Police during the construction of zones around protected areas, the Trans Molopo Highway as it development of Liquid Waste is vital to the community. management Guidelines for MINISTER OF TRANSPORT the Okavango Delta. I thank AND COMMUNICATIONS you Mr Chairman. (HON RAMSDEN): Mr KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you Chairman, in terms of the Access Mr Chairman. Since licences Roads Policy, it is only Dikgotla for lodges in the delta had been that are 10 kilometres or less, halted, are they open now? that are linked to highways. HONOURABLE MOKAILA: Other Government entities like After ODMP, we realised there police, schools, clinics and were places where lodges can others, are not candidates for be increased. So it is open where connection to access roads. These possible. I thank you. get connected when Councils improve their internal roads to KGOSI MOREMI: Honourable bitumen standards. Minister, all those projects that you have been outlining, is there Thank you Mr Chairman. a way the community can be OPERATION OF THE informed about them? PLANNED LERALA SUB HONOURABLE MOKAILA: DISTRICT Thank you Mr Chairman. I KGOSI MOROKA believe arrangements can be made (TSWAPONG REGION): asked 191 Friday 28th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer the Minister of Local Government KGOSI TOTO II when the planned Lerala Sub (KGALAGADI SOUTH District will start operating as it REGION): asked the Minister of is costly for the public to obtain Transport and Communications if services from Palapye. he does not consider it necessary to tar the road from Middlepits ASSISTANT MINISTER OF to Lobu field (Government farm) LOCAL GOVERNMENT since it is essential to Government (HON RAMMIDI): Thank you as well as the community. Mr Chairman. It is indeed true that Lerala Sub District was MINISTER OF TRANSPORT among the 19 that were approved. AND COMMUNICATIONS It is difficult given the current (HON RAMSDEN): Mr economic outlook to indicate Chairman, the condition for with any degree of certainty as to provision of access roads from when the Lerala Sub District will the Public highway network is be established. I thank you. that, the concerned settlement should be gazetted and must fall CONNECTION OF within a radius of 10 km from the SEWERAGE AT MERITING main road. IN GHANZI TOWNSHIP In terms of the Access Roads KGOSI KAHIKO III (GHANZI Policy, it is only Dikgotla that WEST REGION): asked the are 10 kilometres or less that, are Minister of Environment, Wildlife linked to highways. This means and Tourism to explain when that Roads to Government farms sewerage system will be connected are outside the provisions of at Meriting in Ghanzi Township. the Policy on Access Roads and MINISTER OF therefore Lobu Field and many ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE other farms could not be provided AND TOURISM (HON with access roads as part of the MOKAILA): Mr Chairman, my Trans Molopo Highway or the Ministry has not planned for the Middlepits-Bokspits or Tsabong- sewerage development in Ghanzi Middlepits Road projects I thank Township during NDP 10. I thank you Sir. you. KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you TAR ROAD FROM Mr Chairman. Next time this MIDDLEPITS TO LOBU question shall be addressed to FIELD Ministry of Agriculture.

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UPGRADING LERALA Gakhibane and Rappelspan, CUSTOMARY COURT Kolonkwaneng and Dekbos, Dekbos and Tsabong even though KGOSI MOROKA there are network towers in those (TSWAPONG REGION): asked areas; if so when does he intend to the Minister of Local Government rectify the situation. when the Lerala Customary Court will be upgraded from MINISTER OF TRANSPORT Subordinate Tribal Authority AND COMMUNICATIONS (STA) to Senior Subordinate (HON RAMSDEN): Mr Tribal Authority (SSTA) as it Chairman, it is normal that the supervises the numerous villages further you move away from the of Majwaneng, Ratholo, Moeng, tower, the lesser signal you get. Manaledi, Goo-Tau, Matlhakola, Towers work effectively within Mokungwana and Goo-Sekwena a radius of 12 km, beyond that in the Tswapong Region. one loses connection until you come within 12 km distance of ASSISTANT MINISTER OF the next tower. We are aware of LOCAL GOVERNMENT this situation and our future plans (HON RAMMIDI): Mr should we get funds, we will try to Chairman, the upgrading of Lerala improve the situation. Thank you. Customary Court to the Senior Subordinate Tribal Authority will DEBUSHING ROAD be considered in future alongside BETWEEN PALAPYE AND other priorities from other parts of MARTIN’S DRIFT the country. I thank you. KGOSI MOROKA KGOSI MOROKA: Thank (TSWAPONG REGION): you Mr Chairman, thank you asked the Minister of Transport Honourable Minister. and Communications when the road between Palapye and BE-MOBILE NETWORK Martins Drift will be debushed as COVERAGE IN TSABONG it is dangerous to road users. AND SURROUNDING VILLAGES MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS KGOSI TOTO II (HON RAMSDEN): Mr (KGALAGADI SOUTH Chairman we are aware of REGION): asked the Minister of that situation. It is not only the Transport and Communications Palapye- Martins Drift road. if he is aware that there is no be- During this time of the year, we mobile network coverage between 193 Friday 28th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer expect the situation to be like nothing worth mentioning being that but we are working day and done there. Before I came to night to try and get people on the this meeting, I went there to ground so that they can be able check progress. There are big to remove the grass and trees and potholes there. So, there should to patch potholes throughout the be a thorough monitoring so that country. Thank you Sir. it may last because that road is used by a lot of people and even MAMUNO BORDER POST tourists. I thank you. ENTRANCE ROAD MR CHAIRMAN: Thank KGOSI KAHIKO III you Kgosi for realising that (GHANZI WEST REGION): loophole. asked the Minister of Transport and Communications if he is PUMPING BOREHOLES aware that the road at the entrance WITH ELECTRICITY of Mamuno Border post is in a KGOSI TOTO II very bad state, if so, how does he (KGALAGADI SOUTH intend to remedy the situation. REGION): asked the Minister MINISTER OF TRANSPORT of Local Government if he does AND COMMUNICATIONS not consider it cost effective for (HON RAMSDEN): Mr Kgalagadi District Council to Chairman, the department is aware use electricity for pumping their of the situation at the entrance of boreholes as the power lines Mamuno Border post, the area pass near the boreholes instead is under the control of Botswana of using diesel engines which is Unified Revenue Services rather costly. (BURS). However, they did ASSISTANT MINISTER OF approach the Roads Department LOCAL GOVERNMENT to assist in the maintenance of the (HON RAMMIDI): Thank you area and currently the department Mr Chairman. My Ministry is is working around that area. The aware that it is cost effective in maintenance started this month the long run to electrify boreholes on the 7th of January and we rather than using diesel engines. expect the works to be completed However, due to budgetary end of February this year. Thank constraints, it is not possible to you Sir. connect all the boreholes to the KGOSI KAHIKO III: grid as the connection fees are Honourable Minister, there is too high. I thank you.

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MR CHAIRMAN: Will it not MR CHAIRMAN: That is a be cost effective to use electricity difficult question. considering the fact that these KGOSI MOROKA: Thank engines are being stolen in large you Mr Chairman. I heard the numbers? Honourable Minister saying that HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: proper action shall be taken and I Mr Chairman, electricity is the would really appreciate it if that absolute answer in dealing with could be done because this is engine theft. The only problem is becoming prevalent. I thank you. that Botswana Power Corporation MAINTENANCE OF ROAD charges are too high and we do FROM BORDER POST TO not have that amount of money. WEIGH BRIDGE ACTION AGAINST KGOSI KAHIKO III DIKGOSI WHO ABSENT (GHANZI WEST REGION): THEMSELVES FROM asked the Minister of Transport WORK and Communications if he is KGOSI MOROKA aware that the road from Border (TSWAPONG REGION): Post Gate to Weigh Bridge is in a asked the Minister of Local bad condition and has taken long Government what action will time without maintenance. be taken against Dikgosi who MINISTER OF TRANSPORT continue to earn their salaries AND COMMUNICATIONS whilst they continuously absent (HON RAMSDEN): Mr themselves from duty. Chairman, the section between ASSISTANT MINISTER OF Mamuno Border post and the LOCAL GOVERNMENT Weigh Bridge at Mamuno of (HON RAMMIDI): Mr course, was in a bad situation that it Chairman, I have not been made needed reconstruction. The section aware Dikgosi who continue to has been reconstructed and opened absent themselves from duty to traffic. However, there is a small without approved leave. If indeed portion that was not done because there are such cases, that will be the contractor was using it for his inappropriate and should that be plant machinery and equipment brought to my attention, action during construction. The portion will be taken in accordance with is still to be maintained by the the provisions of Section 13 of contractor as it is part of the works. Bogosi Act. Thank you Sir.

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KGOSI KAHIKO III: I this meeting, it was still there? have only one question for the There is no how they can put Honourable Minister. I thought their equipment in the middle of people who construct roads leave the road while still constructing, their machinery at a Plant site not they could have put them by in the middle of the road. Why is the roadside as is the case with this Plant site for Mamuno in the Charles Hill road. I thank you. middle of the road? HONOURABLE RAMSDEN: HONOURABLE RAMSDEN: Mr Chairman, there is one Mr Chairman, road contractors question but it has two parts. decide where to put their Plant When I responded to the first part looking at the space available. of the question, I pointed out that We did not expect the project to the road will be finished by the take that long and we thought it end of February. The spot that was unnecessary to build a bigger Kgosi is referring to, between the camp because the machinery Weigh Bridge and border post, is used would not occupy a larger a distance of about maybe 200 space which might affect the km and that is only the road that movement of vehicles. Again we is under construction right now were trying to avoid a situation and it should be done by the end whereby they would be blamed of February. Thank you. for leaving the place dirty when KGOSI KAHIKO III: decamping, so we thought if they Thank you Mr Chairman and are nearer to the road, when they Honourable Minister. decamp, everything will be in a good condition. As for the type COURT BAILIFFS’ of project I am not sure because CONDITION OF SERVICE I think all the projects are the KGOSI KAHIKO III same, I thank you. (GHANZI WEST REGION): KGOSI KAHIKO III: Maybe asked the Minister of Local I do not understand Setswana. Government if he is aware:- There is gap in the middle of the i) that Court Bailiffs do not road which has not been tarred have Identity Cards whilst because of the equipment that on duty; had been kept in the middle of the road. So my question is, ii) that they have no power when will this gap be attended to of arrest yet some of their because even as I was coming for duties may request them to

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arrest defaulters who fail to Police Officers never respond to pay courts; and our requests more so that there is no memorandum of agreement iii) if so, what measures has between Local Government and he taken to address the the Botswana Police. situation. SHORTAGE OF ASSISTANT MINISTER OF MATERIALS AT DIKGOTLA LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN THAMAGA REGION (HON RAMMIDI): Mr Chairman I have been made aware KGOSI MONNAATHEBE that the new Court Bailiffs do not (THAMAGA REGION): have Identity Cards and that they asked the Minister of Local do not have the power to arrest. Government:- Regarding Identity Cards, I have i) if he is aware that there directed the Department of Tribal is always a shortage of Administration to provide Court stationery and cleaning Bailiffs with Identity Cards in the materials in the Dikgotla of next financial year. Regarding the the Thamaga Region which power to arrest, Mr Chairman, in leads to their poor service a situation where an arrest has to delivery; and be effected, Court Bailiffs need to liaise with Botswana Police ii) if so, how soon can the Officers to assist for indeed they situation be addressed. do not have such powers. I thank ASSISTANT MINISTER OF you. LOCAL GOVERNMENT MR CHAIRMAN: Do not forget (HON RAMMIDI): Mr the request that they should use Chairman I am not aware that uniform that was used by the there is always shortage of Local Police. stationery and cleaning materials in the Dikgotla of the Thamaga KGOSI KAHIKO III: I am Region which lead to their poor confused Honourable Minister. I service delivery. My Ministry do understand the one regarding will carry out an investigation and issuance of cards, but it is a take appropriate measures with challenge for them to work under immediate effect. I thank you. these conditions. On the issue of the powers of arrest; we are KGOSI BOIDITSWE: The going to have delays in executing Honourable Minister says he is our work. In all fairness, the not aware of this situation. Is the

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Honourable Minister aware of any KGOSI MONNAATHEBE: funds that they have allocated for Thank you Mr Chairman and cleaning materials and stationery Honourable Minister. in Dikgotla? I am saying this SALARY INCREMENT because we do not have shovels FOR HEADMEN OF in our region. I thank you. ARBITRATION HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: KGOSI RAMOKWENA Mr Chairman, my belief is (MAUN REGION): asked the that on yearly basis when Minister Local Government:- procurement estimates are done, people indicate their needs. It is i) if he is aware that salaries not possible for me to be aware of Paramount Chiefs and of the needs for each and every Headmen of Record have Kgotla. If other Dikgotla have been increased three times excess materials that they are not whilst those of Headman using, there can be an agreement of Arbitration who are to give to others who do not have. permanent and pensionable I thank you, Mr Chairman. were not increased; and MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable ii) if so, was this an error, and Minister, indeed this is a challenge when will the situation be that we are dealing with in Tribal rectified. Administration. Maybe you are ASSISTANT MINISTER OF liaising with Tribal Administration LOCAL GOVERNMENT Headquarters only. Let me urge (HON RAMMIDI): Mr you to call Tribal Administration Chairman, I am not aware that officers from outside Gaborone salaries of Dikgosi and Dikgosana to fill you with the details of their have been increased three times experiences back in their villages. whilst those of Headmen of I suspect that those who are in Arbitration were not increased. Gaborone give you information I wish to clarify that salaries for Gaborone only. The truth is of Dikgosi, including those of that there are a lot of inadequacies, Headmen of Arbitration were not only on cleaning materials and reviewed and upgraded in 2008. equipment; there are lots of issues What determines upgrading of in our department. We know better posts are the responsibilities because we are the ones who are attached to it. I thank you Mr experiencing them. I thank you Chairman. Honourable Minister.

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KGOSI RAMOKWENA: of Arbitration unfortunately Thank you Mr Chairman. I were excluded. What I want to want to point out that Headmen highlight is that it is not automatic of Arbitration are permanent that when there is an increment, and pensionable and they are it includes everyone because it public servants. They have been is done taking into consideration employed under the Chieftainship the intensity of the workload. I Act, which governs Dikgosi thank you Mr Chairman. before we can talk about Bogosi KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Act. If the Honourable Minister Honourable Minister, take permits me, I would provide him into consideration the fact that with the information to prove Headman of Arbitration are that they have not received any permanent and pensionable. increment? That is why I am saying since they are not on HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: allowance, why have they not Mr Chairman there are a lot of received any increment when positions under Government that it has been done three times are permanent and pensionable for others? Is the Honourable which were excluded just like Minister aware of all this, or Headmen of Arbitration. So this since he is new he is not yet is not only peculiar to the position aware of them? of Headman of Arbitration. I thank you Mr Chairman. HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: Mr Chairman, I think even if Kgosi KGOSI RAMOKWENA: were to bring the information, it Thank you Mr Chairman. Was would not be of any assistance in it not proper for Headmen of resolving this issue. Government Arbitration to be informed salary increment is in two parts; that they would not get an there is one that is done on yearly increment because their job is basis, funds permitting. There is less important? They regard another one which is a Directive themselves as public servants from His Excellency’s Salary and therefore were expecting Review Commission; it is based something. on job evaluation. MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi What I am basically saying is that, Ramokwena, I do not remember it was recommended that Dikgosi Honourable Minister saying the and Headmen of Record should job of Headmen of Arbitration is have an increment. Headmen less important.

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HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: look into salary increment. I can Mr Chairman, I did not say those not state with certainity that there words and there is no how I can is someone who may decide may use them in this Honourable determine who gets an increment House. I do not understand the and who does not, based on their kind of notice Kgosi Ramokwena feelings. That allowance has is talking about. The only notice been drafted in such a way that that is given comes through it will be equivalent to the salary White Paper and there is a of those that are permanent and delegation that is sent to prepare pensionable. So if there will that. I believe that is the only ever be an increment, even those notice that is there. who are on allowance will have it too because they perform the KGOSI MOETI II: Thank you same duties. The 2008 salaries Mr Chairman. I think what Kgosi review commission revealed Ramokwena is trying to say is that that the intensity of workload for whenever there is an increment, Headmen of Arbitration did not Dikgosi that are permanent and qualify for increment. pensionable should have an increment too just like it is done KGOSI RAMOKWENA: for Dikgosi Kgolo and Headmen. Thank you Mr Chairman. My Is it possible for them to have an last easy question is, can the increment alone excluding their Honourable Minister explain colleagues? When there is an to this House the responsibility increment, it should be for all. of and workload for Headmen of Arbitration? I am using this I am a bit confused because I am word ‘responsiblity’because the wondering if the increment is Honourable Minister has just based on the type of employment used it. I want to understand this or those on allowance are responsibility that led to them considered too. I thank you Mr being left out in salary increment. Chairman. I thank you Mr Chairman. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF MR CHAIRMAN: Looking at LOCAL GOVERNMENT the questions and responses that (HON RAMMIDI): Mr are coming from Honourable Chairman, consideration of Members and Honourable increment for public servants was Minister, I suspect that this needs done at the time when there was to be brought as a motion. a commission that was sent to

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HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: other part was just to beef the Mr Chairman let me respond to answer. I thank you. the second question that talked MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable about not being considered. I was Members, in Rules of Procedure, not a member of the salary review there is Rule 19 (3) which states commission. What I can say is that that “a question shall not be the responsibility of Headmen made a pretext for a debate” and I of Arbitration is to mediate and suspect that we have now turned arbitrate. Government does not this question into a debate. expect them to report to work on daily basis. They just come KGOSI LEMPADI: I just to mediate and if there is no wanted to make a correction, the case then they can be given any Honourable Minister had stated assignment by their Dikgosi that permanent and pensionable Kgolo. If another commission is Headmen work two days a appointed, Dikgosi may inform week. That is not true, those on the delegation that their workload allowance are the ones working has increased and ask that they be two days a week. Those who are considered for increment too. It permanent work throughout. will then be upon the delegation MR CHAIRMAN: Thank to take that into consideration you for that correction Kgosi just like Members of Parliament, Lempadi. Councillors, the Police and the Military can be considered. I KGOSI RAMOKWENA: thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me also thank Kgosi Lempadi KGOSI MOSEKI II: Thank you for the correction. Those who Mr Chairman. The Honourable are permanent and pensionable Minister is confusing me again. work throughout the week and In his response, he refers to have benefits. I thank you Mr Headmen who are on allowance Chairman. instead of talking about those who are employed on permanent and PROGRESS AFTER TASK pensionable basis. That is why FORCE ON MERGING OF I am asking him to differentiate BOTSWANA POLICE AND the two. I thank you. LOCAL POLICE HONOURABLE RAMMIDI: KGOSI MOREMI Mr Chairman, I thought that I (BATAWANA): asked the have differentiated them and the Minister for Defence, Justice

201 Friday 28th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer and Security to update this WASTE WATER INTO Honourable House on the THAMALAKANE RIVER progress made following the task KGOSI RAMOKWENA force which was appointed by (MAUN REGION): asked the the Minister to observe the gaps Minister of Minerals, Energy and and discrepancies created by the Water Resources:- merging of the Botswana Police and Local Police. i) if he is aware of the concern raised by different ACTING MINISTER FOR levels of authority and DEFENCE, JUSTICE the community about the AND SECURITY (HON disposal of waste water MOKAILA): Mr Chairman, I from the Letsholathebe am the Acting Minister for today Memorial Hospital into the only. A task force was appointed Thamalakane river; and to observe these gaps last year and this task force was composed ii) if so, how does he intend to of the Ministry of Defence, address the situation. Justice and Security, Ministry MINISTER OF MINERALS, of Local Government and some ENERGY AND WATER Dikgosi. The observation results RESOURCES (HON revealed that indeed there were KEDIKILWE): Thank you Mr some gaps and after that they Chairman. Mr Chairman, I am produced a Memorandum of aware that the community and Understanding, which by now various stakeholders have objected should be signed by both the to the waste water treatment plant Minister for Defence, Justice discharging into the Thamalakane and Security and the Minister of River. Operational problems Local Government. I thank you have been experienced with the Mr Chairman. waste water treatment plant at KGOSI MOREMI: Thank you Letsholathebe Memorial Hospital. Mr Chairman. The plant was initially designed to handle domestic waste water. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable However, the treatment plant has Minister, may you hasten to not been fully effective because sign the Memorandum of the hospital has also been using Understanding because I suspect the treatment plant to handle that it has long been done. clinical waste water which it was DISPOSAL OF not initially designed to handle.

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My Ministry through the Mr Chairman and Honourable Department of Water Affairs has Minister. upgraded the plant at a cost of P5 MR CHAIRMAN: Were you million to enable it to handle both thanking or you were asking a domestic waste water and clinical question Kgosi? waste water. The upgrading included fitting bigger pumps KGOSI RAMOKWENA: It and construction of treated waste was not a question as such. It was disposal ponds. Land to construct just a supplement. the treated waste disposal ponds MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you was secured in December 2010. Kgosi. May I urge Honourable The review of the designs is Members not to supplement ongoing and expected to be Honourable Ministers’ responses, completed by mid February 2011. but let it be a supplementary Thereafter, construction may start. question or thank them briefly. After construction of the ponds, waste water will no longer be REHABILITATION OF discharged into the Thamalakane KANYE DAM river. I thank you Chairman. KGOSI RAMOKONE KGOSI RAMOKWENA: (KANYE REGION): asked the Thank you Mr Chairman, I have Minister of Minerals, Energy one question for the Honourable and Water Resources if he Minister, even though the answer will consider rehabilitating the was clear and straight to the point. Kanye Dam, otherwise known as When these projects are carried Seepapitso III dam. out, is there no consideration of MINISTER OF MINERALS, where the water will go, before ENERGY AND WATER any damage can be done? The RESOURCES (HON water has long been discharged KEDIKILWE): Thank you Mr into the river. This hospital has Chairman. Mr Chairman, the been operating for 2-3 years Department of Water Affairs has which means the waste has in the past undertaken a study to been flowing even into Boteti identify small medium dam sites through the river. People and throughout this country including livestock drink this water. This the Kanye dam. I do share the poses a serious danger to people. view that dams such as the Kanye Thank you for your response dam can play a catalytic role in Honourable Minister. I thank you socio-economic development and

203 Friday 28th January, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer therefore deserve to be considered conductors and that would pose for rehabilitation in future plans. I danger to them. In light of this, thank you Chairman. BPC has agreed with some Local Authorities to remove street lights KGOSI RAMOKONE: from the power lines and instead Thank you Mr Chairman and construct dedicated circuits for Honourable Minister. street lighting. Currently there is BOTSWANA POWER no consideration to decentralise CORPORATION SERVICES the supply of electricity to Local Authorities. I thank you, Mr KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH Chairman. EAST): asked the Minister of Minerals, Energy and Water KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank Resources to explain:- you Mr Chairman. i) why Botswana Power MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI Corporation electrical lines LOTLAMORENG II): Thank in Masunga cannot be used you Kgosi. We have completed to serve as street lights; and today’s questions; let us proceed with our business. ii) when does Botswana Power Corporation intend Looking at the time left, I do not to decentralize the supply think the mover of the motion of electricity to local will be able to present it. So may authorities as it is done in I request that we break for tea and other countries deal with it when we come back. Honourable Members, I have a MINISTER OF MINERALS, message for you. Honourable ENERGY AND WATER Motsumi has asked me to let RESOURCES (HON you know that she has been KEDIKILWE): Thank you given a new assignement by Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, His Excellency, the President. Botswana Power Corporation She is no longer the Minister for electrical lines in Masunga cannot Presidential Affairs as you have be used to serve as street lights already heard. She wanted me to for safety reasons. Mounting let you know that she will be an street lights on power lines will ambassador of Botswana in India. compel the Local Authority She had wished to come and bid maintenance staff doing repairs you farewell herself but she could and maintenance to work in not because of time. Nevertheless, close proximity to live power

204 Friday 28th January, 2011 Introduction of P100 Levy on Cattle Farmers - Motion we want to take this opportunity INTRODUCTION OF to thank her for her cooperation. P100 LEVY ON CATTLE We believe she shall represent FARMERS this country very well. Motion On behalf of the Chairman and KGOSI RAMOKWENA Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, we (MAUN REGION): Thank you would like to take this opportunity Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, the to thank her and appreciate the motion that I wish to present to way we have worked with her. this Honourable House reads, She is one of the Honourable “That this Honourable House Ministers that have worked very requests government to abolish well with this House and we income tax on cattle sales and believe that we shall continue in its place a levy of P100 per working well with the rest of beast sold to Botswana Meat the remaining Ministers. We Commission or butcheries be wish her all the best in her imposed on cattle farmers.” endeavours together with the newly appointed Minister, whom Let me start off by raising the President has trusted with so supporting factors for this motion. much responsibility. Kindly ask When you strengthen something, the President to also consider us there is always a starting point, when he appoints because we in this instance, I will start on the are part of Parliament. He only side of the Government. I tabled focuses on one side and forget this motion after doing a bit of about us. I thank you Honourable research on tax. I realised that Members, we shall meet after the tax charges are normal, but tea. when it comes to tax on cattle, the Government loses a lot of PROCEEDINGS money. Some large scale farmers SUSPENDED FOR can sell lots of cattle and then APPROXIMATELY 30 hire consultants who would make MINUTES it appear as if they made losses. MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI They end being reimbursed on the LOTLAMORENG II): Let me losses and do not pay income tax. take this time to welcome you Our Government is losing a lot of back from tea break Honourable money paying farmers. It is only Members. We shall continue with a few farmers who do not know our business. about this system and are therefore

205 Friday 28th January, 2011 Introduction of P100 Levy on Cattle Farmers - Motion paying income tax. Government they have to pay a lot of money should treat tax payment for cattle to consultants to audit their books differently. For every cow sold so as to show the profit and loss. to Botswana Meat Commission So this will in a way benefit (BMC), butcheries or individuals Government as well as farmers if possible, Goverment should be because large scale farmers will paid P100.00 as tax. That way, be paying too. Government will not have to pay It has been alleged that these for costs incurred by farmers if consultants at times provide false there are losses. Whether there information intentionally, to the are losses or not, P100 will be extent that it would appear as if collected from every cow sold farmers have incurred losses so that and I think Government can the Government can reimburse the make profit out of this. At the farmers. As a result, Government end Government will realise that does not benefit much because this kind of tax is much better there is a lot that is being spent on than the initial one. Government reimbursements. Even if farmers might even consider assisting were to request Government to farmers with pasteurella, lumpy buy vaccines for them, it will skin disease or related vaccines not be possible because of these because most of the farmers expenses. I believe this money is cannot afford them. not much; it will relieve farmers Secondly, this kind of tax will be because they will no longer worry paid for every cow. There will be about tax papers and their expiry no farmer who benefits from the dates. They will be free from tax subsidy paid by other farmers. paying in cattle unless it is tax Majority of cattle slaughtered at from other goods and they will butcheries do not pay any tax and even contribute to Government’s I think there are a lot of farmers revenue. who never sell their cattle at Government revenue really BMC. Those farmers can sell up helps us a lot. Just to cite a living to 30 cattle yearly to butcheries. example, last year in Ngamiland Maybe they never even pay the we complained a lot about BMC P30 Government levy paid at prices. Government conducted a BMC. I think if P100 could be research and realized that there is introduced, it would make a lot little levy collected from cattle, of difference. It will also reduce they used it to increase prices for costs incurred by farmers because us. Sometimes as a child if you

206 Friday 28th January, 2011 Introduction of P100 Levy on Cattle Farmers - Motion are given a piece of land by your that is the motion that I have parent to till it, but still go back tabled before this House. to your father to ask for food KGOSI KGARI III: On a point because you have failed to till the of clarification Mr Chairman. Mr land, this can be surprising. The Chairman, I request the mover of point that I am driving home is the motion to take us on board that this levy will not only benefit on how the tax that he wants to Government, it will also help us be replaced works so that we can in a way that if we request for be able to make a comparison assistance from Government, between the two to see which with regard to anything that has one might be expensive. to do with livestock, we will have a reason to support our request. KGOSI RAMOKWENA: Currently if a farmer does not Thank you Mr Chairman. This update their income tax for two is how this tax works; it shows years, they are charged. There is the number of cattle a farmer has one farmer in Maun who didn’t sold per year and all the expenses know anything about paying incurred which are supposed to be income tax, he did not pay for subtracted from the profit made so many years. When they and whatever remains is the one conducted an audit, they realized that will be taxed. So the issue that he had over 500 cattle which here is that prominent farmers he was supposed to have paid whom at the end of the day are income tax for but did not. At the supposed to pay a lot of tax, end, it was difficult for him to benefit a lot from Government pay the amount of money that he instead of paying a lot. They are owed. He paid half of the money able to do this because they know and then from there he looked prominent accountants who can for some consultants who would make it appear as if they made a provide wrong information loss even though they have made intentionally and at the same time a lot of profit. Government ends he had to pay these consultants up reimbursing them. So the levy because they are very expensive. that I am talking about will give This poor man went through a no chance to fraudsters. very painful experience. If things If a farmer has got 500 cattle could be done this way then there and sells 200 yearly, when will be no chance of ripping the that farmer produces a record Government off. Honourable reflecting losses, and will be Members, with those few words,

207 Friday 28th January, 2011 Introduction of P100 Levy on Cattle Farmers - Motion paid by Government. That can With those reasons, I request for happen for 10 or 15 yeas. That the support of this House because is the practice, if it has not been I have already pointed out how it abolished; the farmer has to be will be of great help to us and paid for all the losses made and Government. It will make things the most beneficiaries are the easier for farmers to pay their ones who own a lot of cattle, who levy without being in arrears. Mr can afford to pay accountants. Chairman, I do not wish to go any further, I think I have tried to KGOSI KGARI III: Mr support this motion. I thank you. Chairman, the mover of the motion has not been able to help KGOSI MACHILIDZA me so far, he has explained that (BOTETI REGION): Thank when a farmer sells, the expenses you Mr Chairman. I also want to are deducted and the remainder make a comment on this motion. is the one taxed. I want the The Chairman had granted me percentage that is taxed, is it 1 the permission to go out but when per cent or 20 per cent? That I saw that this motion was about could help us a lot. the P100 levy and Botswana Meat Commission (BMC), I KGOSI RAMOKWENA: decided to wait to hear all about Thank you Mr Chairman, for it. Honourable Members, we your patience. The money taxed have freedom to air our opinions. does not have a percentage. Kgosi Ramokwena has tabled a They only look at the remaining good motion. This motion can be amount. I am not sure of the looked at from two angles, the percentage, whether it is 10, 12 rich and the poor. or 15 per cent. What I want to point out is that, even if it is 10 Another issue that we should percent it is too much for a farmer look at is that some of us who pays honestly. So, for those especially those from north, sell who provide false information, our cattle in very far places. they are not paying any tax but Firstly, we have to hire vehicles benefiting from Government. So that will transport our cattle from now the P100 levy is lesser than the cattle post to the place where the tax which is 10 percent; a we are selling. Our Government cow may fetch P3 000 or P6 000. charges us only P100 when we I do not know if I have clarified sell our Cattle to BMC and we that to Kgosi. have to support our Government so that new developments could

208 Friday 28th January, 2011 Introduction of P100 Levy on Cattle Farmers - Motion be made for our benefit. I believe Veterinary office has numbers of that the Income Tax Act is for their cattle. I am not saying Kgosi those who have better income, so did not come up with a good that they assist the poor. We have motion, it is a good one because to bear in mind that we are not he is lamenting about his country equal in terms of wealth. that has been ripped off by its citizens, yet they are supposed Maybe the mover of the motion to be contributing towards its should have talked about development. increasing the levy that we have been paying at BMC, but taking All that I am saying is we should into consideration small farmers. look into this motion carefully I am not sure if this levy is P10 so that we do not put others at a or P20 because I did not research disadvantage. The other point that much about this motion. Even we should take into consideration though he has raised concerns is that farmers from the west that there are those that do not pay are prone to cattle diseases their tax, he should have focused and drought. Some are called more on them as they are the ones professional farmers of a very that own a lot of cattle and yet high standard. P100 will be a lot they do not pay tax. He should of money to a small farmer. Some have suggested a way in which tax keep their cattle in quarantines is to be paid. Like looking at the but at the end the cattle do not number of cattle each farmer has improve but they still incur huge sold, so that those that do not pay expenses, paying transpotrers could be identified. At the end, no and herdmen. I am not against one should be at a disadvantaged this motion but we should take position. Maybe we could pay tax into consideration those who will looking at numerical numbers like benefit mostly at the end. If the 100 could pay a certain percentage prominent farmers provide false and 150 a certain percentage too. information, Government will Right now even farmers who have have to conduct a survey to find two cattle or one cattle pay tax. out the causes of all their losses. They have to provide substantial So issues like these should be evidence as to what caused the looked into so that they can loss of their cattle and that should benefit us all. Those who do not be confirmed by veterinary have intentions to pay can be officers. Some are commercial handed over to Botswana Unified farmers who have farms and Revenue Services (BURS). The

209 Friday 28th January, 2011 Introduction of P100 Levy on Cattle Farmers - Motion like everybody else, they have I remember very well, last year, to pay their taxes. This would transporters charged us a P160 set an example to the upcoming per head to transport cattle from generation that a country ought Mokobilo to Francistown, which to be served by its loyal citizens. is about 100 km. If a farmer had I think our Government should to transport 10 cattle, then they stand up, even if this motion is were to pay P1600 and that was to be adopted, I still believe tax the second charge excluding other should be paid looking at the charges. If now Government is to number of cattle. Way back tax charge P100 per head, then the used to be paid looking at the total amount for 10 cattle will number of cattle a farmer has be P1000. The total money to be and the charge was P385. If at paid by the farmer will be P2600. all the prominent farmers are not So for those small farmers, it will paying their tax, they are going be a great loss for them because to get themselves into trouble. I they will remain with nothing. know that some Batswana can be Since the mover of the motion careless. Not keeping records can was talking about auditing of be dangerous when there are other books, he should have referred things which need to be done, to farmers who are in business. basing on these records. Even Their cattle fetch a price which banks may need them. Keeping will reflect that they were fed record would also assist us to in farms, unlike ours which are know how we are progressing. I from cattle posts. do not negate this motion, but let Like the previous speaker, I am of us look at it in such a way that the opinion that this issue should it will cater for small farmers. I have been reviewed before being thank you Mr Chairman. brought to this House, it should KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA note that we are not equal. REGION): Mr Chairman, at first Maybe the income tax that Kgosi I did not understand this motion says should be abolished is far and I got to understand it as the less than the proposed P100. If presentation progressed. I too we are to abolish the little money am of the view that P100 is too that our Government has set as much. As Kgosi Machilidza has a standard and adopt a higher already said, those of us who do amount, then we will not be fair to not have farms but willing to sell the small scale farmers. It would at BMC, incur a lot of costs. If benefit the large scale farmers

210 Friday 28th January, 2011 Introduction of P100 Levy on Cattle Farmers - Motion only. The mover of the motion as a Wholesale, Supermarket was right when he said vaccines or even a tuck-shop, but if one like botulism and pasteurella are were to rate the income tax for hard to find, even in Government all of them, you will realise that outlets. They might be found they are not the same. The same somewhere else but at a higher applies to livestock industry; the price. However, we must use income tax can never be the same. them twice a year. I understand We can say that livestock market when he said this money could in Botswana is a free market. As be used by Government to buy livestock owners, we never get vaccines so that farmers can buy the chance to negotiate prices at a subsidised price. But could with buyers, the buyer is the one that be the only factor that can that determines the price and it contribute to a P100.00 price is a take it or leave it situation. hike at BMC or any butchery? These are factors that we should Mr Chairman, if we do that, it take into consideration while we will look like we did not take are requesting for a P100 levy. into consideration the fact that If the buyer is to subtract the others are small farmers. Maybe levy and other charges, then the if the mover of the motion had farmer will be left with nothing. suggested lesser amount than We are not against this motion P100 per head, then we would but it just came at the wrong time. support the motion. P100 will Right now when I sell 10 cattle be too much for others and they to butcheries and the licence for will get to think that Government that is P500 per year, that means justs wants to benefit without any we will be paying P1000 to assistance for them. Let us not Government. Whereas it is only abolish levy that has been there. P500 at the butcheries but they With those reasons, I am afraid I can slaughter up to 100 per year. cannot support this motion and I We should look into the fact that urge other Members to reject it. I at the end of the day what are we thank you Mr Chairman. going to benefit from this issue. KGOSI KAHIKO III Honourable Members, I think it is (GHANZI WEST REGION): clear that service levy is paid to Thank you Mr Chairman. Just to cattle that are exported. It is there comment on the tabled motion. in the law for Control of Livestock First of all, livestock industry is a Industry. The ones that are local business on its own, it is the same do not pay that. A responsible

211 Friday 28th January, 2011 Introduction of P100 Levy on Cattle Farmers - Motion farmer will always keep their leaders and therefore we should books updated so that they can be be considerate and understand able to pay tax and that is not the that we are not equal. P100 is just responsibility of Government but a lot of money. Previous speakers that of the farmer. Government have already stated that way back will take steps for those who fail to the charges for transport were pay tax, so let us not disadvantage P170 per head, so maybe the those small scale farmers because charges have increased now. For of the large scale farmers. those who are from places that are prone to foot and mouth, it will We are not against this motion, be a great disadvantage. If we are but we are just looking at these the ones saying the money should factors. With those words, I do be increased, we will not be fair not support this motion. I thank on Batswana. Let us understand you Mr Chairman. that every businessman has to pay MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi tax regardless of the money they Kahiko, may I request you to make. I do not support the motion. withdraw the words in which That is all that I wanted to say. I you said we should reject this thank you Mr Chairman. motion because I do not want KGOSI BOIDITSWE you to influence other Members (SEROWE REGION): Thank to take a decision. They should you Mr Chairman. I have heard be free to speak because there Kgosi Ramokwena’s motion and may be members who support I had a lot of problems because this motion. the issue of profit and loss is a KGOSI KAHIKO III: I humbly challenge in business. You strive withdraw those words. to have a profit not a loss, more especially when we talk about KGOSI MONNAATHEBE livestock. Farmers incur a lot of (THAMAGA REGION): Thank expenses there and Government you Mr Chairman. We understand has realized that. The mover of the motion as presented. I think the motion has stated that even this motion came at a wrong vaccines are very expensive but time. This Honourable House is to get profit from your livestock, an advisor to the Legislature. If you have to spend on them. we are not careful, Government might end up adopting requests About two years back, we were like these, only to find that they invited to BMC to see how cattle will come back to haunt us. We are are received, slaughtered and

212 Friday 28th January, 2011 Introduction of P100 Levy on Cattle Farmers - Motion all that. We could see that even most of them are into subsistence Government incurs a lot of costs. farming. We do not have I saw cattle from Kgalagadi, they association like the ones we read were very big, and it was evident about in magazines like Farmers that indeed a lot of money had Weekly from South Africa.They been spent feeding and taking present their position to the care of them. The transportation Government in one voice, united. costs for such beasts would also I do understand the mover’s be high cosidering their weight concern and I can see that he has and distance. Maybe Batswana a vision for farming. This is a have not yet reached that stage good idea, though it may not be where they can pay that amount used right now, maybe the future of money. We are also not equal; generation will consider it to be some have just started farming, so helpful. With those words, I do if this will only be for established not support this motion. I thank farmers, then it means we will you. be left behind as it has always KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI been the case. Maybe we should REGION): Thank you Mr categorize farmers according to Chairman. This motion is good, their expenses to see if this will but it has some challenges. I will be beneficial to us all. It is only look at it in two parts. The mover that Batswana are not fond of of the motion talked about income writing down all the expenses tax and levy. I will try to address incurred, even payments for herd the issue of income tax first. The men and petrol used to look for way it is designed, we can not stray cattle. So when a farmer is abolish it. It is paid based on the paid 4, 5 at BMC for one head, income or what one earns. Your they get to think that they have cattle will be counted and the made a lot of money when on the number is diverted to money. If contrary, they are not aware that their value qualifies for payment, they are ones who have actually then tax should be paid. Levy is incurred a lot of costs. for anyone who sells their cattle Just to give an example, people in to the market while income tax sandy areas use engines to draw is for an individual basing on the water for cattle even when it has value of property they have. rained. These are costs. As we are here, it is not all of us Again we do not have strong who pay income tax but those farmers associations; it looks like who get paid a certain amount of

213 Friday 28th January, 2011 Introduction of P100 Levy on Cattle Farmers - Motion money do pay, that is how it is. believe that when we come to So I take this motion to have two this House, we do not come here different parts; levy and income to argue but rather to help one tax. That is where my problem another and everybody is entitled is. If the motion was based on to express their opinions. We are the idea that the levy that is paid Dikgosi and we know there is a at BMC is too little and ought to saying that, ‘mafoko a Kgotla a be increased, then I would have mantle otlhe.’ Those are words something to say. Currently in which demonstrate peace and beef industry, it has been stated freedom. Those who did not that every cow that will be taken support the motion are not saying to the butchery or BMC will pay it is bad, they are only saying let a levy of P30. When we talk us go back and look into this. If about income tax, it is different, there are reasons for negating it is based on our income. it....… (Interruption) If we are talking about abolishing MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi income tax, then I have the Ramokwena, there is a request, impression that farmers do not do you agree to it or should we want to pay tax and even workers give the floor to the Minister? will say they do not want to pay KGOSI RAMOKWENA: Mr it. That is the question I am Chairman, I agree to withdraw asking myself. So I move that the the motion. I thank you. mover of the motion withdraw this motion so that we can go and MR CHAIRMAN: Thank look into it to see how best it can you Kgosi. With that, we shall be tabled. I thank you. end here concerning Kgosi Ramokwena‘s motion as he has MR CHAIRMAN: Thank withdrawn it. We may proceed. you Kgosi. There is a request which I am not sure if Kgosi INTRODUCTION OF Ramokwena agrees with or we PROOF OF ELIGIBILITY should continue and give the FOR FOOD RATION floor to the Honourable Minister PROGRAMME to respond because it looks like Motion all Members who wanted to speak have done so. MR CHAIRMAN: I do not see the Minister of Local KGOSI RAMOKWENA: Government; I do not know what Thank you Mr Chairman. I could have happened. Kgosi

214 Friday 28th January, 2011 Provision of Expertise and Machinery for Purposes of Drilling Boreholes - Motion Boiditswe, this is your motion. traditional methods of surveying, May I request that we skip that but end up losing a lot of money motion because the responsible for nothing. Most of the times Minister is not here? you will find that boreholes that have been drilled by Government KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I heard through the help of experts are the Honourable Minister saying much better than the ones drilled he is going to call him, but we through traditional methods. can proceed to the next one. Government has got employees MR CHAIRMAN: Let us go to from Geological Surveys who are the next motion. experts on issues of undergournd water. Motion- deferred. Considering these things, I PROVISION OF EXPERTISE thought it would be proper to ask AND MACHINERY FOR for assistance from Government PURPOSES OF DRILLING to provide us with expertise and BOREHOLES machinery to drill boreholes. If Motion a farmer borrows money from KGOSI RAMOKWENA National Development Bank (MAUN REGION): Thank (NDB) or anywhere, they will you Mr Chairman. I request have the assurance that there is the support of this Honourable water there where they want to House on the motion which drill. A farm without water would reads, “that this Honourable be useless. Many farmers have House requests Government to abandoned their farms due to of assist farmers with expertise lack of water. That is why I have and machinery for surveying tabled this motion but I hope it will water for purposes of drilling not be too much for Government. boreholes whilst farmers pay for I would like to conclude by these services.” Mr Chairman, I saying that when farmers tabled this motion after realising engage people using traditional that a lot of farmers have lost methods to survey water for the respect and intergrity of them, they still have to pay even farming because they incur a if they do not find water after lot of expenses in trying to drill drilling. I have seen about 4 dry boreholes. They lose because boreholes that were surveyed they do not have the expertise for using traditional methods. Then water survey. Most farmers use one man, who is late now, who

215 Friday 28th January, 2011 Provision of Expertise and Machinery for Purposes of Drilling Boreholes - Motion worked for Geological Surveys old man closely later told us that in Government was called and he saw the old man spitting on the he was able to survey water mirror and when we confronted that was enough to feed a lot him about the issue, he admitted of livestock. The farmer had that it is indeed true he did that, already given up that there is no he is just making a living out of water. Some already suspected that. He said that sometimes when that he had been bewitched, but he lies, by luck, the water will be it was only because there was no found. The old man missed the professional expert. spot where water was and showed us a wrong place. That is why I I tabled this motion so that am asking Honourable Members Government can assist us to to look onto this issue that avoid falling into huge debts in Government should help us so commercial banks, NDB, Citizen that we may avoid a lot of debts Enterprenual Development when there is nothing found. Mr Agency (CEDA) and others. As Chairman, that is how short this I have already pointed out, I have motion is. I thank you. noticed that boreholes that were drilled by Government always ASSISTANT MINISTER have water. It may be too salty for OF AGRICULTURE (HON the livestock but the water is there. MOLEBATSI): Thank you Mr A lot of farmers have applied Chairman. Kgosi we do not have to use Government boreholes. much expertise about water. We Farming is faced with a challenge have realised that it falls under of lack of water just because we the Ministry of Minerals, Energy do not have the relevant expertise and Water Resources and I think to help us. by virtue of being here, it might look like I am the responsible Mr Chairman, my uncle once hired Minister whereas I am not. We one old man who was famous have passed it to Minerals for for surveying water. He used a them to come and respond. So I mirror for surveying. As he was am not sure if it will be advisable surveying, looking at the mirror for us to continue with it when and chanting, he spit on the mirror they are absent. I thank you. and he started shouting that the reason why his mirror has water is MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable because there is water where we Minister, what you did was not stood. But there was nothing at all. right. You should have made us The boy who was following the aware of that from the beginning

216 Friday 28th January, 2011 Provision of Expertise and Machinery for Purposes of Drilling Boreholes - Motion because we just assumed that thank Honourable Ministers even your presence meant you are the though they are absent today responsible Minister. Thank you because in the past 3 days, they Honourable Minister. have been working cooperatively with us. May we urge them to KGOSI RAMOKWENA: continue with that same spirit Thank you Mr Chairman and even in the next meetings. the Honourable Minister. Mr Chairman, I am not in a hurry As we all know, our former and I believe this motion needs Chairman is still not well and we the responsible Minister and shall continue praying for him and therefore we shall wait for them. I believe you have all seen the card that has been going around and Motion- deferred. you signed your names on it. We MR CHAIRMAN: We thought shall make proper arrangements since this motion is about to give it to him. assisting farmers, you were going I believe that our stay here has to respond. We shall defer this been productive and I appreciate motion to wait for the responsible all the motions, questions and Ministry. answers that have been provided Honourable Members, Assistant by the Ministers even though Minister and officers here, we today their turn up is poor, they have come to the end of our have been coming throughout the business which marks the end of week. Honourable Minister, please our 2 weeks meeting. Thank you send our regards to the Cabinet, all for your cooperation and as we tell them we appreciate how they know this was our first meeting have worked with us and we hope of the year and it has started off that that spirit shall continue. We with elections. used to complain in the past of the poor turn up of Ministers in We attended a workshop at this House. This worried and we Botswana National Productivity thought that our Government is Centre (BNPC) and then came not cooperating with us and she back to continue our business in takes this House for granted. We this Chamber. I have no doubt appreciate the effort. that we have worked well together just as in the past and I believe we Honourable Members, we have shall continue with the same spirit come to the end of our meeting. during the next sitting. We would Let me take this time to wish like to take this opportunity to 217 Friday 28th January, 2011 Provision of Expertise and Machinery for Purposes of Drilling Boreholes - Motion you a safe journey for those I have already thanked you who are going back. Let us not for your usual cooperation. If forget that we have an invitation there is anything that you were on the 1st. For those who will not satisfied with, it being with manage to attend the ceremony administrative matters or the in Lobatse, we shall make proper leadership, but I do not think arrangements. there is any, in any case we apologise. It will be good if you I believe you will find everything keep on showing us our shortfalls back home still intact. You will and even where we have served not find your uncles having you best so that we may keep up dethroned you because some the good work. of us we do not trust them and staying here for two weeks is On that note Honourable long enough for them to dethrone Members, even though we are us. Blessed are those who come about to part in this Chamber, here with their uncles because the Ministry of Education wishes they are assured that everything to address us on some very is under control. important issues. They said it will only be for about 10-15 I wish you a safe journey, may minutes. We are not trying to God bless you and keep you safe force you into a briefing and I until we meet again. We shall believe that it is something that keep in contact and keep up the will be of great importance to us. good spirit of working together. I I will request that we meet before had already highlighted that there we go back to our villages and I is a message from Honourable will let them know that we have Minister Motsumi; she thanked already adjourned the House so you for working cooperatively that they will be brief and let you with her. We have also thanked go back home on time. her for her cooperation too and wished her well. I have also KGOSI SEEMEKO: Mr talked to the Chairman of Ntlo Chairman, on the last issue that Ya Dikgosi yesterday and he you noted, I was thinking that told me that he is in good hands you could just tell us the time for where he is, they are expecting that meeting because you have to be back home on Sunday. We already adjourned the House shall continue with some of the and some of us might decide to issues that we have to discusse in go after lunch. I think the time is the Committee Room. very important Mr Chairman.

218 Friday 28th January, 2011 Provision of Expertise and Machinery for Purposes of Drilling Boreholes - Motion MR CHAIRMAN: When we were talking to them, we suggested 2 p.m. I think we will be back by 2 p.m. and if we keep time we shall be done 2.15 p.m. the latest. Let us meet in the Committee Room at 2 o’clock in the Chamber. ADJOURNMENT The House accordingly adjourned at 12.22 p.m

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