Vol. 184 Tuesday, No. 1 13 June 2006

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Tuesday, 13 June 2006.

Business of Seanad ………………………………1 Death of Former Taoiseach: Expressions of Sympathy ……………………1 Business of Seanad ………………………………8 Order of Business …………………………………8 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: Committee Stage …………………18 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: Second Stage ……………………50 1 2

SEANAD E´ IREANN

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL OFFICIAL REPORT

Imleabhar 184 Volume 184

De´ Ma´irt, 13 Meitheamh 2006. Tuesday, 13 June 2006.

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Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 2.30 p.m.

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Paidir. Prayer.

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Business of Seanad. Deputy Charles J. Haughey, who was Taoiseach for many years. It is proper that we should do An Cathaoirleach: Before the House begins its that. business we will take tributes to the late former Taoiseach, Deputy Charles J. Haughey. The Writers over the next few weeks, and ulti- Leader of the House will contribute to the trib- mately history, will balance the scales of justice utes, as will Senator Mansergh, because of his in respect of the late Taoiseach’s career. As close association with the former Taoiseach down someone who served in Cabinet with him for six the years. The tributes will be confined to those years — five as Minister for Education and some Senators as well as to the leader of each group in months as Minister for Health — I can confirm the House. that many of the statements made about him in the conduct of his daily business were, quite sim- Ms O’Rourke: This will be done before the ply, not correct. It was said that he was autocratic Order of Business. in Cabinet and people were not allowed to have their say. He certainly cut off waffle. If anyone attempted to proceed with waffle, he or she was An Cathaoirleach: Yes. told where to get off, and why not? Waffle does not serve anybody well. However, he certainly Death of Former Taoiseach: Expressions of allowed everyone to have a voice. Sympathy. For me in particular, the former Taoiseach Ms O’Rourke: I thank the Cathaoirleach for his gave me my political chance. He opened the door. judgment in this matter. As Leader of the House, I had no experience of Cabinet. While I had I wish, first, to do the proper and homely thing, Front Bench experience, I had never served at which everybody does in such circumstances, Cabinet. A fellow Minister who was disquieted particularly the Irish, and that is to pass sympathy by my elevation said to the Taoiseach, “But Mary to Mrs. Maureen Haughey and her four grown- has no experience”. He replied, “She is sound”, up children, and particularly our colleague in the and I got my chance to serve in Cabinet. other House, Deputy Sea´n Haughey, on the There are many other features to the former death of her husband and their father, former Taoiseach, which will emerge in the days and 3 Death of Former Taoiseach: 13 June 2006. Expressions of Sympathy 4

[Ms O’Rourke.] both positive and negative, over those years and weeks ahead. Be that as it may, that is the busi- they have done it with great dignity. I sincerely ness of political writers and commentators. I pre- sympathise with them today on the loss of a fer to look at the man in his full rounded person- father, husband and grandfather. ality. For me the good certainly outweighs the not The Leader is right to state that it is too early so good. I recall his endeavours when we were in to judge the political legacy and career of Charles Opposition when he ran the party Front Bench Haughey. He dominated Irish politics for 40 as if it were a Cabinet. We reported on time for years. It is rare for someone to be elected in the meetings and we had our memoranda and ideas 1950s and work all the way until 1992, serving as ready. He ran matters in same way as he was later Minister for Finance, Health and Social Welfare, to run the Cabinet and it ill-behoved anyone to leader of his party and Taoiseach. We should not be late. Matters were conducted quickly, the busi- forget that he was elected by the other House as ness was done and we went on our way. Taoiseach on four separate occasions, which is a It was also good that his brother, Fr. Eoghan seminal honour. Not since the time of de Valera Haughey, was with him when he died. Death is has any Irish politician been elected on four sep- awful, but it is a fine matter to die surrounded by arate occasions by the Da´il to the office of one’s relations and those who love one. Taoiseach. We need to remind ourselves of that I think of Charlie Haughey’s pursuit of the fin- office. I was very happy when the Government ancial services industry and the legislation per- offered a State funeral to the Haughey family taining thereto when we were in the shadow who graciously accepted it. Whatever one’s view Cabinet, as well as his creative activity and his of the legacy of Charlie Haughey, the fact is that genuine interest in the arts. I think of his interest he was Taoiseach of this country. As Taoiseach, in education and his interest in the North of we need to honour the office and those who held Ireland. The beginnings of the boom in Ireland it for such a long period of time. It is right, fitting were no doubt sown between 1987 and 1989. and proper that a State funeral would be offered Everyone will remember his speech about tight- and accepted. ening our belts and wonder if he was tightening It is also right that the funeral mass of Mr. his own. That is for others to comment on. There Haughey will take place in his beloved is no doubt that the period from 1987 to 1989 set Donnycarney, a part of Dublin I know well, as the scene for the later economic boom. my godmother lives opposite the church to which I recall personal family matters as well, but at he will be brought next Thursday. There is great the end of the day, Charlie Haughey and Brian affection among the people of Donnycarney for Lenihan shook hands and wished one another the Haugheys, particularly Charlie Haughey, who well before my brother died. I am happy in my heart that was done and that the ills were forgot- was one of them, grew up among them and was ten. His head was demanded and was given, but a local boy who did very well. That he is going if I start on that I will never stop. home to Donnycarney on Thursday and Friday of As Leader, I wish to give public expression to this week and that the State funeral will take the sympathy on this side of the House for the place there is welcome. Haughey family. As was said so eloquently this The Haughey years were defining ones in terms morning on the radio by Catherine Butler, of our attitude to Northern Ireland, the ability of Maureen Haughey was not just a woman — she this State to manage its affairs economically in a was a lady. She was wonderful to her late hus- sensible and sane way, the way in which standards band. They do not make taoisigh, potential or in politics have changed and in which politics is real, like Mr. Haughey anymore. Many will say viewed among the Irish population. There is no that that is a good thing, but I do not think so. doubt Charlie Haughey was one of the most tal- He showed charisma to people who flocked to ented politicians, if not the most talented one, him and wanted him. It was another era and since the foundation of the State. I say that another time. God rest his soul. because he was utterly pragmatic. He came from a community which helped him to understand Mr. B. Hayes: On behalf of the Fine Gael what ordinary people thought. He understood group in Seanad E´ ireann, I offer our sympathies what people wanted. He had great foresight in to the Fianna Fa´il Party and to all colleagues in trying to see how ordinary people lived their lives the House who served with the former Taoiseach, and he responded to that. He was a talented poli- Charles Haughey. Senator Daly was a Cabinet tician but, as the Leader said, there was another Minister, along with Senator O’Rourke and side to him and that is probably for another day. others. Senator Mansergh also served with him in Whatever we say in this House today of the life another capacity over many years. They will feel and times of Charlie Haughey, I am convinced of his loss greatly today. I also pass on our sympa- one thing, namely that the Irish people have thies to the Haughey family in particular. I am made up their minds about Charlie Haughey, be not aware of any family in Irish public life who that positive or negative. Nothing we say here have had to suffer the ongoing glare of publicity today or nothing that is written about him in the over 40 years in the way the Haughey family has. weeks and months ahead will change the collec- They have had to bear the brunt of that publicity, tive view the Irish people have of this political 5 Death of Former Taoiseach: 13 June 2006. Expressions of Sympathy 6 leader and figure who dominated politics in this Mr. Ryan: On my own behalf and that of the country for more than 40 years. Labour Party Senators, I offer genuine condol- ences to the family of Charlie Haughey, and Mr. O’Toole: I do not wish to argue with the particularly to his son, who is a Member of the Chair’s ruling but I would appreciate if Senator other House, and for whom most of us have con- Quinn could be allowed the opportunity to speak. siderable respect and regard. I also extend sym- pathy to the Fianna Fa´il Party which has lost a An Cathaoirleach: I cannot assist the Senator figure of stature and charisma, one of the domi- as I have ruled on this matter. nant figures of Irish politics. Like many of us on this side of the House I am Mr. O’Toole: Our duty here today is to pay our conscious of things I may have said but I ought respects to somebody who served the State for a also to respect this man’s achievements. He pro- long time as Taoiseach, the highest parliamentary gressed from a background of limited, if not no, elected position in the country. I believe the privilege to leadership of the country. Whatever words spoken by the previous speakers would be one thought of his shortcomings, which we will echoed by all of us, the reality being that people leave to others and to another day, he had a qual- will have different views of Charlie Haughey, a ity of leadership which was sometimes astonish- controversial and charismatic figure who was per- ing in its capacity to deal with the realities haps loved and loathed in equal portions but presented to him, which often differed from those nonetheless whose contribution has been huge in for which he might have wished. whichever way it may come to be measured. If one was not too close to him he was an easy Mr. Haughey was unquestionably visionary and man to like. Those who worked very closely with had a novel and creative approach to the various him were a little afraid of him. For those of us Departments in which he served prior to becom- who knew him less formally he was an easy man ing Taoiseach. As Taoiseach, he introduced a to whom to talk, one who, more than many recog- presidential style of Cabinet leadership and took nised, had a fairly sharp wit and a good sense of an interest in what was going on in every single humour, capable of being expressed in a phrase Department. We saw his novel and creative or two. approach in issues such as the artists’ tax exemp- Mar a du´ irt an Seanado´ ir O’Toole, bhı´ an- tion, the IFSC and Temple Bar and his support bhaint aige le Chorca Dhuibhne. Ba cho´ ir dos na for free travel for old age pensioners, many of ndaoine a cheap nach raibh se´ da´irı´re faoin which initiatives he undertook against the advice cheantar sin tı´re e´isteacht le pobal an cheantair. of senior officials and others. That must be It does not matter what the politics of people recognised. there were, they knew that his affection for that It must also be recognised that as well as the part of Ireland was genuine. His affection for the qualities of statesmanship which he showed time arts was genuine, as was his sense of Irishness. He and again and his patriotic zeal for the country, dealt with the illness he had to confront for the he, like many great historical figures, had a collec- past 11 years with considerable dignity and open- tion of human flaws and frailties to balance all ness. In many ways he lived out a long illness that. That is something on which history will under public scrutiny with dignity and pride. make a judgment and on which, as Senator Brian Some time in the distant future the Succession Hayes said, people have probably already made Act, which he introduced as Minister for Justice, up their minds. It is not for us to pass judgment will be regarded as the most radical legislation he on that, rather it is for us to recognise that he introduced. It transformed the rights of women made a contribution as Taoiseach. such that certain things could never again be done At all times he showed absolute respect for to them. He had, and his family has, good reason every elected politician, irrespective of what side to be proud of his legacy in other respects. Ta´ se´ of the House or what House they came from. I imithe uainn anois. Go luath, tosno´ idh na staraı´ heard him say on a number of occasions that ag caint faoi agus beidh na leabhair a´ scrı´obh agus somebody who was elected to come in the gate an taighde ar siu´ l. Nuair a scru´ do´ far a shaol iom- was somebody who demanded respect. He was la´n, beidh lochtanna agus easpanna ann, ach approachable by people at all levels from all par- beidh rudaı´ eile ann a bheidh in a´r gcuimhne go ties or none. In that context, it is fitting that we fad te´armach, rudaı´ a dhein agus a thosnaigh se´ should recognise his contribution as Taoiseach. agus an tslı´ a dhe´ilea´il se´ leis an saol mar a bhı´ I should also say, being from Corca Dhuibhne, se´,ce´ go mb’fhe´idir nach e´ an saol mar a theas- go raibh dlu´ th-bhaint aige leis an taobh sin tı´re. taigh uaidh go mbeadh se´. Ar dheis la´imh De´ go Chaith se´ tamaillı´n i ngach bliain da´ shaol sa raibh a anam. taobh sin tı´re agus go mo´ rmho´ r in Inis Mhic Aoibhlea´in, sna mBlascodaı´,a´it ina ndu´ irt se´ Mr. Minihan: On behalf of the Progressive riamh go raibh draı´ocht speisialta ann. Bhı´ dlu´ th- Democrats I would like to express sympathy to cheangal aige le muintir Chorca Dhuibhne. the family of Charles Haughey, particularly his We offer our condolences to his family and to wife Maureen, his children Eimear, Conor, Maureen who made a significant contribution. Ar Ciara´n and Sea´n, our parliamentary colleague in dheis De´ go raibh a anam. the Da´il. This is a sad time for them, the wider 7 Order of 13 June 2006. Business 8

[Mr. Minihan.] House for a term, and his daughter, Eimear. Ar Haughey family and his colleagues in Fianna Fa´il. dheis De´ go raibh a anam. Our party leader said this morning that when Mr. Haughey retired as Taoiseach in 1992, the Members rose. Government he had presided over had set the foundations for the historic achievements, the Business of Seanad. economic turnabout in the country and the An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from peace process. Senator Bannon that, on the motion for the A number of speakers have referred to the suc- Adjournment of the House today, he proposes to cess of Ireland’s International Financial Services raise the following matter: Centre, which is a living tribute to the boldness and determination of Charles Haughey. He will The need for the Minister for the Envir- also be remembered for generating a particular onment, Heritage and Local Government to vibrancy in the arts and for the excellence of the provide an update on the proposed Knockmar- renovated Government Buildings which we see as tin Lane group sewerage scheme. a legacy. Much will be written about him in the I have also received notice from Senator Kitt of days, weeks and months ahead. Today is not the the following matter: day to judge, but the day to extend sympathy. On The need for the Minister for Transport to behalf of the Progressive Democrats, I express outline whether he will discuss with Iarnro´ d our deepest sympathies to the Haughey family E´ ireann the restoration of two train stops at and his colleagues in Fianna Fa´il. Woodlawn station, Ballinasloe, County Galway. Dr. Mansergh: I extend my deepest sympathies to Charles Haughey’s wife Maureen and his chil- I have also received notice from Senator dren. They have much to be proud of as well as Morrissey of the following matter: to be sad about today. He was a great parliamen- The need for the Minister for Communi- tarian who had an extraordinary political career. cations, Marine and Natural Resources to out- Taken in the round, despite the sadness and line the current position regarding access to difficulties of the past few years, he was lucky electricity in new housing estates in light of rather than unlucky. His many acts of charity and reported serious problems for new assistance will long be remembered by those homeowners and families in north Dublin. affected by them. He did not believe there was any such thing as an ordinary person, but that I regret that I have had to rule all three matters everybody had special individual qualities. He out of order, which I suppose is a record. The matter raised by Senator Bannon is out of order was particularly conscious, because of his back- because the Minister for the Environment, Heri- ground, of the real difficulties and poverty people tage and Local Government has no official suffered, whether small farmers, pensioners, responsibility in the matter — it is a matter for struggling artists or people living in the inner city the relevant local authority. The matter raised by of Dublin. Senator Kitt is out of order because the Minister Three weeks ago I had the honour of sitting for Transport has no official responsibility in the with him as he looked back with great satisfaction matter — it is a matter for Iarnro´ dE´ ireann. The over the past 50 years. What he was most proud matter raised by Senator Morrissey is out of order of was the social partnership agree- because the Minister for Communications, 3 o’clock ment of October 1987 coupled with Marine and Natural Resources has no official the national recovery from which the responsibility in the matter — it is a matter for country has never really looked back. Associated the ESB. with that was his very constructive relationship with EU President Jacques Delors which let Order of Business. Ireland be included with the Mediterranean countries and benefit from the vitally important Ms O’Rourke: The Order of Business is Nos. 1 Structural Funds over the past 20 years. It was and 2. No. 1, Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill also he who first pulled the threads which started 2006 — Committee Stage, to be taken on the con- to make up the peace process. In his time he vin- clusion of the Order of Business and to conclude dicated a vigorous constitutional republicanism. not later than 5.30 p.m.; and No. 2, International May he rest in peace. Criminal Court Bill 2003 — Second Stage, to be taken between 5.30 p.m. and 7 p.m., with the con- An Cathaoirleach: I wish to be associated with tributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 the tributes paid to the late Charles Haughey, a minutes and those of all other Senators not to former Taoiseach, who died this morning. I exceed eight minutes. Senators may share time extend my sympathy to his widow, Maureen, his and the Minister will be called upon to reply not three sons, one of whom, Sea´n, served in this later than five minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage. 9 Order of 13 June 2006. Business 10

Mr. B. Hayes: I would like to mention an inci- was some stunt and I doubt whether the official dent that occurred in Dublin last weekend. A herself would be inclined to engage in such a young firefighter who works for the Dublin fire stunt. It showed astonishing disrespect to so brigade service received 35 stitches to the face describe it. Moreover, I was amazed at the gov- when a lunatic hooligan decided to throw a bottle ernor of the prison, who stated that it was an act at him. Such incidents constitute an increasing of aggression against the United States and that trend not only in Dublin but also in other cities. it constituted asymmetrical warfare. He was cor- As I said some years ago, emergency workers rect in that the action could not have been more such as firefighters, paramedics and nurses, who asymmetrical. It involved one imprisoned, are often attacked by people who are out of their shackled and tightly controlled person in his minds with drink, drugs or both, should be given pyjamas against a nuclear power which has no additional legal protection. I understand that the scruples in respect of torture. That is certainly Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is asymmetrical. However, it begs a series of ques- considering an amendment to the Criminal tions and I am glad that the Government has at Justice Bill 2004, which is before the other House, last woken up to what is happening at Shannon in this regard. I would be grateful if it could be Airport. That issue will probably be a matter for expedited in this House as soon as possible. We tomorrow night’s Private Members’ debate. need to do something to help those who put The Government has called in the American themselves in the front line of hooliganism and ambassador because a civilian aircraft with more vandalism and encounter people who are trying than 100 military personnel and a prisoner in to destroy our society. We need to protect such shackles has been discovered. I congratulate the people and the jobs they do. I ask the Govern- whistleblower, the cleaning lady, who made the ment to accept the amendment to the Criminal discovery. A cleaning lady, or even a garda dis- Justice Bill 2004 as soon as possible. I hope guised as a cleaning lady, who boarded some of Senators will have a chance to debate this matter the other aeroplanes might not have found some- if the legislation in question comes to the House one in shackles, but would have found the before the summer break. shackles. I am glad the House will debate this issue tomorrow night. Mr. Norris: I wish to refer to something I said In addition, the House should have a wider about RTE last week. I stated, with the support debate on the Middle East, in the light of the of other Members, that it had not covered bombing of a beach in Gaza, in which there were debates in this House. Since then, I have been seven civilian casualties, as well as the apparent informed that while it had done so, it had descent of Palestine into civil war. It has been changed the broadcasting time, which did not stirred up and is the direct responsibility of all appear in the newspapers. It is important to with- those countries, including Ireland, which meanly draw that criticism. held back money from the suffering people of However, I wish to replace it with a different Palestine, although they did nothing whatever criticism, which concerns the new programme about the human rights violations or the imple- scheduling. It proposes to remove programmes mentation of the human rights protocols attached like John Kelly’s “Mystery Train”, which is a dis- to the external association agreement between tinguished and unique form of broadcasting and Israel and the European Union. which brought people’s attention to groups such as the Buena Vista Social Club, of which they An Cathaoirleach: I call Senator Minihan. would not otherwise have heard. I also refer to Rather, I call Senator Ryan. I apologise to broadcasters such as John Creedon, that inimi- Senator Ryan, for mixing up the Members from table voice, Val Joyce, as well as Myles Dungan’s Cork. arts programme. There is a legitimate interest in this regard, because RTE is a national broad- Mr. Ryan: I would not have allowed the caster. While I am happy to pay the licence fee, I Cathaoirleach to forget. do not see why I should do so, simply to get another music and blather station. Mr. Norris: If the Cathaoirleach had wished me to continue, I would have been happy to oblige. Mr. Ryan: Hear, hear. Mr. Ryan: It is high time for the House to Mr. Norris: Members want a real national debate the Middle East. The participation of broadcaster and ought to support RTE in its pro- Ireland, through the European Union, on the vision of its traditional kind of distinguished assault on the people of Palestine and their coverage of the arts and other interests. elected Government is a particularly shameful I also wish to raise the issue of Guantanamo moment. Moreover, it is a peculiar and confused Bay, especially in the light of the suicides of three morality which lectures one side for firing rockets inmates. They were astonishingly described by an while asking for restraint when the other side official — whose own title, namely, the person does so, or which is quite correctly horrified when with responsibility for political diplomacy, poses children are killed by one side, but which almost some questions — as a public relations stunt. It leaves out the killing of children by the other. 11 Order of 13 June 2006. Business 12

[Mr. Ryan.] national drugs trade, the sale of arms to tyrants, Apparently, this is because it did not aim at the dictators and terrorists is tolerated all over the children, who simply happened to be there. world. The difference is that drugs are made by This took place as recently as yesterday, when poor people and sold to rich people while arms people, including children, were killed. Appar- are generally made by rich people and sold to ently, if there are children in a building when poor people. It is overdue for a House of the Israel decides it wants to kill someone, that is Oireachtas to debate this issue and the increasing tough on the children. This is what Ireland sup- evidence that Ireland is getting tangled up in it. ports when it subscribes to the world assault on the people of Palestine for not electing the Mr. Minihan: I support the statement by Government which some people think they Senator Brian Hayes on the unprovoked attack should have elected. Such a debate is desper- on a member of the fire service. We should have ately needed. strong laws to protect those working in our emer- I would also welcome a debate on public sector gency services. It is not unusual for false calls to broadcasting because those who lobbied me and lure Garda cars, fire engines or ambulances into others in both Houses for a proper licence fee an area where they can be attacked by people. A have a right to an explanation. Senator Norris clear message must go out on this issue. listed the people and a programme that have I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on edu- been dropped. As a friend of mine in Cork said, cation, particularly on the points system. It would it appears that RTE Radio’s philosophy is that not be appropriate to do so now as the exams are during the day it should have neither culture nor ongoing. However there have been calls in the culchies. All those with accents are being taken last few days for an examination of the points off the programme to give a bland, Dublin-based system on higher level maths and science subjects. succession of people who sound the same, are the This has been raised several times at the Joint same and meet RTE’s peculiar criterion. Committee on Education and Science. The time has come for a review of the points system. In Senators: Hear, hear. certain schools and colleges pupils, my son included, are encouraged not to take honours Mr. Ryan: There was a report in today’s news- maths because of the amount of time it consumes paper on the new phenomenon of homeless but to take up other subjects instead. The code immigrants. Those who have been here long for playing the CAO system has been cracked in enough to know how I came to this House will certain schools. I believe we should have a debate know of my connection with the Simon Com- on this in the autumn. munity. Although I have been aware of this for a There are concerns relating to the higher level while I was asked not to make a public issue of maths paper but they will be dealt with in the it, however it has been done. In view of the fullness of time. A report today points out that refusal to give people from accession States yesterday’s higher level geography paper was access to our welfare system, if their job does not produced in colour while the ordinary level paper work out they have no recourse to supplementary was unfortunately produced in black and white. welfare, rent allowance or employment assist- The colour paper gives a significant advantage to ance. If their jobs fall apart they end up on the students in analysing graphs and such. We should streets. A disproportionate number are being have a debate on all of these issues in the autumn. encountered by those who provide services for the homeless. Mr. Browne: The cancer strategy was launched If we are not to create another underclass, one yesterday and I request a debate in the next cut off by language and culture, it is time we couple of weeks on various aspects thereof. We intervened vigorously. Nobody who comes to this have no idea of the cost or timescale for imple- country to work should end up in a state of mis- menting the strategy. The Ta´naiste made an ery sleeping on our streets. I do not care how it announcement indicating the merger of cervical is done, what we do with the law or what are the cancer screening and breast cancer screening, but issues involved. We cannot claim to be a welcom- we do not know the implications of such a move. ing country for people who come to work here if Previous debates in the House have shown that we allow them to be abandoned on the streets roll-outs have been announced but have not hap- because of the inadequacy of our welfare system. pened around the country. I would like the Leader to allow us to have a I am disappointed that there has been no debate on the international armaments race. Yes- initiative on prostate cancer screening. In every terday the Stockholm International Peace debate on health in the House many contri- Research Institute revealed that last year, the butions have been made on the need for men to world spent $900 billion on armaments. It is the get regular health checks, yet on this issue the most astonishing sum, is approximately five times State has failed to implement a screening process. Ireland’s annual gross domestic product and I do not understand why there cannot be a dwarfs the international drugs industry by a national screening process for prostate cancer. factor of approximately ten. While the world is in Many men in this House will, unfortunately, con- perpetual uproar, correctly, about the inter- tract this in the course of their lives. Indeed it is 13 Order of 13 June 2006. Business 14 somewhat topical in that our former Taoiseach, Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : All of us in the Houses of Charles Haughey, died today having fought pros- the Oireachtas came into public life in the hope tate cancer for many years. I ask the Leader to we could give some service to our people. At the arrange a debate and have the Ta´naiste clarify to same time we hoped to give a voice to those who this House the costs and timescale for the imple- have none. As a nation, we needed such action mentation of the cancer strategy. in the past. What is currently happening to the Palestinian people and in Guantanamo Bay is Mr. Kitt: Media reports, especially in The Irish challenging all our consciences. Times last week, referred to the abandonment of the western rail corridor, which represents only Mr. Ryan: Hear, hear. 1% of the total budget of \31 billion under Trans- port 21. I hope there will be a debate on this issue Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : It would seem that moral- as it is relevant at the moment and it is relevant ity has now gone to the bottom of the list of to a motion I tried to raise on the Adjournment, priorities. We seem to depend on idealistic young which the Acting Chairman had to refuse, relat- people to give voice to an issue, although it may ing to train stops. If we had that debate I would not be politically correct. have the opportunity to say I do not think Currently, if a country or person is in the right Iarnro´ dE´ ireann is fulfilling its role in providing club — particularly the club headed by the a proper train service in the west. If Iarnro´d American Administration — then anything goes. E´ ireann is behind the attempt to scupper the This is not fair to the American people. They western rail corridor I will be very disappointed. have made it clear in various talk shows we have Dublin Bus receives subsidies and we know what heard, columns in the newspapers and polls that the DART and Luas cost to set up and it would they are not happy with what is happening at the be unfair to leave out the western rail corridor. moment in their name. In fairness to the Government, it should be said Mr. Ryan: Hear, hear. it has gone out on a limb on many occasions, very often as a lone voice, to ensure that morality Mr. Kitt: I support what has been said regard- would be centre stage. I have said this many times ing the national broadcaster, however I am still previously. We should be careful to unite our not clear about the future of the section on farm- voices here. There is no doubt that what is hap- ing matters on the “Five Seven Live” programme pening at the moment in Iraq and the Middle East as a whole will come back to haunt us. There on RTE Radio 1. Senator Dardis presented it in is no point in us putting up our hands and stating the past and it provided necessary information to that we did not know. people in the farming community. Will RTE allow this to continue in the autumn schedule? Mr. Ryan: Hear, hear. Mr. Bannon: I would like the Leader to invite Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : We are fully aware of what the Ta´naiste and Minister for Health and Chil- is happening, we know it is not right and we know dren to the House to debate the inadequacy of it is vital for all independent minded countries the nursing home subvention. This might help to which are neutral and respect sovereignty to con- relieve the hardship and financial stress imposed tinue to give a voice. This voice would be a voice on families throughout the country. I know of protest and support, and we have lent it in families and relatives that have mortgaged their the past. homes to pay for elderly parents and relatives in nursing homes. The subvention has not kept up Mr. Ryan: Hear, hear. with inflation and there has not been an increase in several years and we all know the high cost of Mr. Feighan: A “Prime Time” investigation last private nursing homes. The cost of heating oil, night on RTE dealt with the tenth anniversary of insurance and wages have all risen considerably the ruthless assassination of Veronica Guerin. It in the last two years, yet there has been no is harrowing and worrying to see that we have increase in the nursing home subvention. regressed in the fight against drugs. Up to 100 There is a crisis with regard to public nursing drug lords are operating from Spain with home spaces with the result that people are impunity. My heart goes out to the families, bro- forced to send their elderly relatives to private thers, sons and daughters who must put up with nursing homes. It is important we debate this the serious drugs problem all over the country but issue, as it is a very sad reflection on our society especially in inner-city Dublin. There appears to when we see people having to mortgage their be indecision in Europol which is allowing these homes in a time of plenty in order to look after drug lords to act with impunity. the people who served this State well over the We have had debates on the ever-increasing years. Perhaps the Leader will urgently arrange a rate of road traffic accidents. There are extra debate and try to pressure the Ta´naiste and Mini- gardaı´ on the roads or in the Garda traffic corps. ster for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, to We must have a debate — a wake-up call — to increase the nursing home subvention. seek extra resources to deal with the ongoing 15 Order of 13 June 2006. Business 16

[Mr. Feighan.] arrange that the appropriate Minister will come drugs problem. The Government should lobby at to the House and debate planning for communi- EU level and try to get a decent agreement which cations equipment? It is an important issue which will ensure a proper fight against these drug lords causes a great deal of concern. It must be in Spain and around Europe. addressed at national level. We have a duty in this House to highlight these issues. They are coming down the line very fast, Mr. Glynn: I support what was stated about the but we appear to be very naive about what is hap- drugs situation, the death of Veronica Guerin and pening. I thank the Cathaoirleach for his indul- the brave acts of that girl who, as a journalist took gence, but we must have a debate on this very on the godfathers of drug distribution and the soon. It is the tenth anniversary of Veronica drugs trade. Many of the young people who go to Guerin’s death and we should remember her. discos and nightclubs know the names of those There was much action following her death, such peddling drugs. However, they will not tell as the establishment of the Criminal Assets because there is a cloak of secrecy over the distri- Bureau, but we are losing sight of this serious bution of drugs. Many people, particularly those issue, which will affect the youth of our country. in the medical profession, state that cannabis is We should deal with it sooner rather than later. not only a gateway drug, but has extremely serious side effects, not least mental side effects, Dr. M. Hayes: I endorse what Senator O´ yet others, some of whom have been elected, Murchu´ so eloquently stated about Guantanamo advocate the legalisation of cannabis. If ever Bay and Palestine. society had a death wish that is it. Everybody in I rise to support the call by Senators Brian society is a referee. The confidential telephone Hayes and Minihan for protection for the emer- number should be used. If a person has infor- gency services. It is appalling that people whose mation he or she should blow the whistle. Those jobs are vital to life-saving should themselves be people must be put out of circulation. exposed to risk and injury. The North has seen a frightening development which may happen here. Ms O’Rourke: Senator Brian Hayes, the In some areas these services are called out pre- Leader of the Opposition, raised the matter of cisely so they can be ambushed. They provide a the young firefighter who went to do his public type of circus for people who seek a riot. While service and by way of thanks got 35 stitches in legal protection is important and should be put in his face from what Senator Hayes described as a train, these people serve the community and we “lunatic hooligan”. While firefighters are paid by should call on community leaders and parents. a town or city council, much of their work is of a Most of those engaged in these activities are voluntary nature and for that to happen is appal- young people. Communities have a duty to pro- ling. Senator Hayes called for additional legal tect those people who come out to succour them protection for those who work in the public emer- in their need. gency services and asked that, if the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform tables an Mr. B. Hayes: Hear, hear. amendment to his Bill, it be accepted as soon as possible. Mr. Ryan: Hear, hear. Senator Norris raised the issue of RTE. He said the debate in the Seanad was broadcast last week Mr. Bradford: Almost every night a public but that it did not state in the newspapers when meeting is held in a parochial hall somewhere in it would be shown. Most of us check the agenda the country regarding fears about planning appli- in the newspaper if we want to watch a prog- cations for telephone masts and other communi- ramme. There was a stunning picture of the cations equipment. We must live in the real world Senator on the front page of The Irish Times and agree that from an industrial and communi- today and he cannot complain in this regard. cations perspective ongoing progress and Senator Norris referred to the manner in which development must take place. However, many some programmes are being displaced by RTE. local communities are scared because of a lack of Myles Dungan was a shining light and his prog- information and confusion surrounding risks ramme “Rattlebag” is brilliant. On this prog- posed by this equipment to the health of their ramme one might hear Peruvian singers or a sto- families and children. These masts are erected ryteller from Chile. No matter what one says, this near schools, community facilities and housing is an island and “Rattlebag” gives us a chance to estates. hear things from other countries and continents. We need a national debate and national regu- I do not know why it is being displaced until 11 lations. Local authorities appear to approach p.m. — an amazing decision. It is the quirky voice planning applications for such equipment in vary- of John Kelly, who presents “The Mystery ing fashions. We should have a streamlined Train”, that attracts one, in addition to his com- national system which would allow progress to mentary on the music he is featuring. continue but which would also ensure the serious Senator Norris also referred to the suicides at questions asked by citizens are addressed and Guantanamo Bay, which were described by some answered fully and transparently. Will the Leader PR lady in the United States as a PR stunt — I 17 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 18 ask you — and by others as an act of aggression. complain they cannot get a signal or service, but The Senator wants a wider debate on the one cannot have it both ways. Middle East. Senator Ryan called for a debate on Palestine Mr. Browne: Hear, hear. and Israel and agreed with what was said on public sector broadcasting, on which he also Ms O’Rourke: There should be a national wants a debate. He referred to the new phenom- regulation and information provided on whether enon of homeless immigrants, who are now part there are inherent dangers associated with tele- of our lives and abandoned on our streets. He phone masts. called for a debate on the arms industry, which is Senator Glynn called for a debate on drugs. He now worth \900 billion. referred to those who want to decriminalise can- Senator Minihan called for a debate on the nabis, although it is a gateway drug, and to its education and points systems. These would be mental side effects. suitable for debate in the autumn and it would be Senators will note four or five short new Bills wrong to debate them now. Everybody is talking on the Order Paper for this week and will also about the fact that one cannot do leaving certifi- note that more are to follow, including the very cate higher level mathematics. Even the most extensive Criminal Justice Bill. The latter will adept at mathematics in secondary schools say require considerable debate. I do not know one must spend far too much time on the subject, whether we will have time for debates on other at the expense of other subjects. Reference was issues but we want to complete the debates and made to the clear mistake in the geography pap- the legislation we have on hand before the recess. ers at honours and pass levels, whereby the former was produced in colour while the latter Order of Business agreed to. was not. Senator Browne asked for the details and cost of the cancer report and called for a debate on Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: prostate cancer. On Senator Kitt’s point, it is now Committee Stage. fashionable to speculate on the western rail corri- dor. Some are saying it should not go ahead in SECTION 1. spite of all the work put into it. People who live Mr. Browne: I move amendment No. 1: in Dublin and use the DART and Luas, for example, forget that a wider part of Ireland needs In page 3, lines 17 to 21, to delete subsection its rail services. (3) and substitute the following: “(3) This Act shall come into operation Dr. Mansergh: Hear, hear. immediately on its passing into law.”.

Ms O’Rourke: The way the media have begun I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Sea´n to write about the western rail corridor does not Power, and his officials to the House. I under- bode well for it. Those concerned would want to stand my proposal that “This Act shall come into get their act together and get stroppy about it operation immediately on its passing into law” is again. the norm. I am not sure why such latitude is being Senator Kitt also referred to the national given to the Minister to decide when exactly it broadcaster and the future of farming. Senator will be implemented, especially considering that Bannon asked for the Ta´naiste and Minister for it has taken a year and a half for her to introduce Health and Children to be invited to the House it in the first place and that she is primarily to debate nursing home subventions. We had a responsible for having introduced flawed legis- very good debate last week on Second Stage of lation in December 2004, which, I am thankful, the nursing home legislation. It concerned repay- was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. ments but was essentially about nursing homes I hope the Minister of State will look favourably and presented a very good opportunity to on my amendment. Senators to talk about subventions. Senator O´ Murchu´ raised the issue of Guantan- Minister of State at the Department of Health amo Bay and referred to voices against the war in and Children (Mr. S. Power): I do not accept this Iraq. He called for a debate on the Middle East. amendment because it does not allow for a com- Senator Feighan referred to the great prolifer- mencement order for a certain section of the Bill. ation of drugs in our community. Senator A general commencement order can be made to Maurice Hayes referred to the need to protect allow for commencement of all provisions of the those who work in the emergency services. I Bill. The inclusion of the provision to allow com- agree because these are the people we call upon mencement orders will allow, if necessary, the when we need them. commencement of a provision of the legislation Packed meetings are again taking place around before the legislation is enacted. The company Ireland on the subject of mobile telephone masts. may begin to work on the scheme prior to the I believed this subject had passed on. The people enactment of the legislation if a commencement at these meetings are sometimes the ones who order deemed section 12 of the Bill to have com- 19 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 20

[Mr. S. Power.] In page 6, subsection (1), line 5, to delete menced on a date prior to the enactment of the “including” and substitute “being”. Bill. This amendment proposes enabling the Health A similar amendment was proposed by the Service Executive to enter into an arrangement Senator’s colleague, Deputy Twomey, in the Da´il. with anybody to carry out the repayment to It was debated at some length and rejected after people of money stolen from them. It is worded due consideration. in a way to ensure the service can be contracted out to a private body if the HSE so wishes. Mr. Ryan: I support the amendment. That suc- cessive Governments, and not just the present I listened to the Minister of State when we dis- one, have shown such astonishing reluctance to cussed this matter on Second Stage and he said include in legislation a date on which it would the problem was that the HSE did not have the come into force serves as the most appalling com- resources to do it. If a private body is to be con- mentary on the inefficiency of our whole system tracted to do it, will it do it free of charge? The of government. Governments are most reluctant Minister of State knows that is not the case, to deal with amendments that do not cost a lot of therefore, the private body will also have to have money when one tries to get them to agree to resources given to it. From where will those a certain deadline for the implementation of the resources come? Will they come from the HSE legislation. Even if Senator Browne had included because the private body will not do it for “six months’ time” or “12 months’ time”, at the nothing? It will do it for a fee, which will be sub- latest, the Government would have opposed it. stantial and include a reasonable margin for itself. The Government should bring legislation passed The Minister of State’s idea was that if the HSE by the Oireachtas into force within a reasonable did it, it would have to take resources away from period. It is a great pity the Supreme Court held some other area but will the Government pay for that essentially the Oireachtas can pass legislation this body? It will not do so. The HSE will have and, provided the clause is included, the Govern- to provide for this out of its budget. ment can sit forever on legislation. That is an What we are getting is the belief that the HSE appalling reflection on our system of governance. can somehow manage to buy in the expertise cheaper than it can by allocating some of its own Mr. S. Power: I have nothing further to add. resources but that means money being taken There is no need to go over what I said earlier. I from something else. We know the HSE is not outlined the reasons for the delay in bringing for- exactly awash with money. We only have to ask ward the legislation. We hope to have the legis- the people of the north east who are undergoing lation enacted as quickly as possible to ensure the the prospect of dramatic cutbacks in health process of processing the applications can com- services, including the non-employment of an mence quickly and allow the people receive their oncologist, which is ironic given the rhetoric money as quickly as possible. about cancer we got yesterday. The fundamental question is where the money Mr. Quinn: A sense of urgency is needed in will come from to pay for this process. Will it terms of legislation coming through these Houses come from the HSE, in which case it is simply because there have been too many examples in paying it out, or from the Government, in which the past of something being permitted but case the Government is saying it will give it to a nothing happening for a long time. When I first private organisation but not to the HSE? became a Member of this House I sought a date, My amendment seeks to keep this provision regarding legislation on authorities that were within the public sector. I am not too hung up on being established, for the publication of their the amendment, nor am I too hung up on who annual reports and I found there was great reluc- does it provided somebody can give me a plaus- tance to do that. Now, admittedly, a date is put ible reason it would be better to have a private down each time. This amendment is worthy of organisation do it than to give the HSE the extra support and I urge the Minister of State to recon- resources to do it. That is what I would like to sider it. hear an answer on. Why is this way better and who will pay for it? Question, “That the words proposed to be deleted stand”, put and declared carried. Mr. Quinn: I listened carefully to what Senator Ryan said and found the case he was making Amendment declared lost. interesting but I cannot accept that he has made a sufficiently valid case. It appears to me, and I Section 1 agreed to. am sure the Minister of State will say, that we should leave the door open for whatever is the Section 2 agreed to. most efficient, cheap and sensible way of getting it done. If we accepted the wording in the amend- SECTION 3. ment, it would exclude the possibility of looking for the best value and from that point of view, I Mr. Ryan: I move amendment No. 3: do not believe Senator Ryan has thought this one 21 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 22 through sufficiently. Normally, he speaks with a was found guilty, so to speak, of taking money very level sensible hat on but in this case it does from people without the authority to do so, it was not appear to be—— important to have an independent company involved. In an ideal situation we might not have Mr. Ryan: Has it fallen off? to employ a company but in this case the right decision was made to use the resources of an out- Mr. S. Power: I am inclined to agree with side company in assisting us with repayments. Senator Quinn. The sun seems to have affected Senator Ryan. Mr. Ryan: We now know something. We know that the Government does not know how much Mr. Ryan: The Minister of State should not this outside agency will be paid. I thought some- start. I will take it from my colleague beside me where along the way we had got a commitment but I might not take it from a Minister. that this would never happen again and that we would not allow these sorts of dangerous, open- Mr. S. Power: I do not accept this amendment ended contracts to private sector advisers, sup- because it would not allow for the appointment porters, consultants or experts because of what of an outside company to administer the scheme. happened with PPARS in particular. We now The Government decision allows for the appoint- have a situation where somebody has been ment of a company to provide an independent chosen by the HSE to do the job. Incidentally, a input into the process. The public tendering pro- week ago the Minister said that a fortnight had cess has been implemented and the HSE decided to elapse. As it was before a week ago that the on the appointment of a preferred service pro- appointment was made, the 14 days is probably vider at a meeting of the board on 1 June 2006. up. Perhaps somebody could tell the House the In accordance with normal tendering procedures, name of the company. no information can be made public on the pre- It would be nice if the Da´il which will ulti- ferred service provider until an interval of 14 days mately vote the money, knew to whom it is voting has elapsed and there has been no substantial it. I want to know how the HSE picked somebody query or objection from any of the unsuccessful to do this job without, apparently, the Minister bidders. responsible knowing how much it would cost. If The HSE has also stated its support for the ever there was an argument for keeping matters decision to engage an outside company as it is not within the tight constraints of the public sector, in a position to administer the scheme because what the Minister of State just said vindicates it. the making of repayments on this scale is not its We know that somebody has been picked to do core work and the resources required to adminis- it and the Government does not know how much ter the scheme are not available within the HSE, it will cost. It was quite clear that whoever is given its extensive commitment to the provision being affected by our present climate, it is not I. of health services without diverting staff from their normal duties. Mr. Glynn: I support the words of the Minister Consideration was given by the HSE to the of State and indeed, those of Senator Quinn. involvement of public sector staff to assist it in Those who will deal with these matters are people administering the scheme but the HSE has indi- who have been involved in the tendering process. cated that approach was not taken due to the As a consequence, it is reasonable to assume that potential industrial relations difficulties. The the optimum value will be secured for and on requirement to assign dedicated HSE resources behalf of the State. There is no point in going into to supervise these staff and remove them from histrionics as to why this money has to be paid their normal duties, the time constraints of the back. Everybody knows that and all Govern- public procurement process and the potential for ments are culpable in that regard. The reality is significant logistical difficulties and protracted that this is the way to proceed. I am in favour of delays, will have to be factored into the tendering the reasons, as outlined by the Minister of State process of the companies who are to take these and indeed, Senator Quinn. It is a question of staff on board. value for money and I believe the measures that The cost of employing an outside company has have been selected will deliver that. not been established but the funding will not come from the HSE. The cost of hiring a com- Mr. Leyden: I was anxious to address this pany will come from a special account which is section of the Bill. I spoke on this issue at a meet- being established. It is not a matter of taking X ing of the Fianna Fa´il parliamentary party and amount out of some particular service this year the Minister of State, Deputy Sea´n Power knows to pay for the hiring of the company. We realised this. As a former Minister of State at the Depart- at the start of the year that this cost would have ment of Health, I do not understand why outside to be met and it will come from the Exchequer. consultants are necessary in this case. I have There is no magic wand, as the Senator knows. made the case already that there are hundreds of This is an unusual case. It is the biggest and most members of the HSE. I am very surprised that expensive repayment case the State has ever the HSE is not aware of what staff actually do undertaken and because of the fact that the State at community welfare office level as regards the 23 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 24

[Mr. Leyden.] Mr. Leyden: I have not and I will say why. assessment of medical cards. I made a simple suggestion to the effect that all reviews of medical Acting Chairman: I believe I have to make the cards should be postponed for the period decision here. required to assess the repayments to the partici- pants involved in this particular campaign. Mr. Leyden: I want to put it to the Minister of This is not rocket science. I am constrained State that I have read somewhere that \50 million because of my position as a Fianna Fa´il Senator. has been estimated in this regard. I regard \50 I may speak on the actual amendment, but when million of our money as \50 million on top of it comes to a division of the House, I must vote what is being repaid. At this late stage I am ask- in a particular way. That does not stop me, ing the Minister of State and the Government to however, as a member of the Fianna Fa´il Party review this situation and let matters be dealt with from telling the HSE what I believe. I am in-house by the HSE and the appropriate services appalled, incidentally, by the bonuses given to the involved. I made that appeal at the Fianna Fa´il chief executive, given that we cannot come up parliamentary party meeting in private and I am with some degree of originality in so far as this making it now in public because the people are issue is concerned. I would say to the staff and there—— officials who are in the House, that I cannot understand why people are reviewed for their Acting Chairman: Might I make a suggestion? medical cards every year when there is no need for it. Nothing new will happen within one year, Mr. Leyden: I am making the point and asking general speaking, as regards a person’s income. the Minister of State—— Still, he or she has to face this embarrassing medi- cal card review, having to put his or her case Acting Chairman: The Senator has made the every year to the community welfare officer, point very well. He could, perhaps, put down an when circumstances have not changed. The same amendment on Report Stage. staff employed in this regard should be located in each county or area to assess the number of Mr. Leyden: At this stage, I am quite happy to people eligible for these repayments, for better discuss matters—— or worse. Acting Chairman: The Senator could put down I have strong reservations as regards the an amendment on Report Stage. judgment of the Supreme Court, because I served in the Department as well and I felt that most Mr. Leyden: I am very grateful for the Acting people were satisfied with the payments, the Chairman’s advice. charges and the services they were receiving. However, the Supreme Court does not seem to Mr. Browne: I, too, agree with the previous have regard for the economic situation in this speakers. The Department of Agriculture and country or the demands to repay this. I have a Food pays out enormous sums every week to constituent who will be receiving a repayment for farmers and the Department of Social and Family the last ten or 15 years. He has asked me to check Affairs makes considerable payments every week his father’s repayments because he was also in a as well. I query why we have to go outside the home for a number of years. Between the two of HSE or the Department of Health and Children them a nice little fund will be accruing to the for this payment. That is done already and we account. cannot undo matters. Senator Leyden is some- No great rocket science is involved in asking what late in calling for matters to be reviewed at the community welfare officers and the staff deal- this stage. ing with medical cards to process and assess the situation and to let the Department of Health and Mr. Leyden: I was not. I asked before—— Children, which seems to be semi-redundant because of the HSE, oversee the situation and Mr. Browne: I know he asked before, but on come up with the payments required for the indi- today’s date, he is somewhat late. I am very con- viduals involved. It is as simple as that, but it is cerned, however—— ludicrous to spend \50 million on a private out- side company which knows nothing about the Acting Chairman: I ask Senator Browne to system of operation of the former health boards, address this amendment. He can table an amend- the HSE and the Department of Health and Chil- ment on Report Stage. dren. I served in that Department in my capacity as chairman of the Western Health Board and as Mr. Browne: Here we are in the House, a week a Minister of State and I would not be giving this later, and we still do not know who has got the role to outside bodies. I see no reason for it. I contract and neither do we know how much it make this late appeal to the Minister of State. will cost. Can the Minister of State say what con- trols and checks are in play? Have we learnt any- Acting Chairman (Dr. Henry): The Senator has thing from PPARS? Have we learnt anything strayed considerably from the amendment. from the redress board as regards a Bill that was 25 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 26 originally to cost taxpayers \200 million and has This is the first time we have embarked on a now risen to \1.1 billion? The argument about scheme of this magnitude. The HSE indicated it the appointment of the outside firm is a some- was not in a position to administer the scheme on what different business, but I am concerned about its own. There will be checks and balances in the checks and balances in place to monitor and place and a number of reports will have to be supervise this. If it is to be \50 million, what hap- presented before the Minister. The council will pens if it turns into \100 million? Will someone also be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor be culpable or will he or she be reprimanded? General.

Acting Chairman: I must ask the Senator to Acting Chairman: Is the amendment being address this amendment and he can table an pressed? amendment on Report State, having raised matters on this Stage. Mr. Ryan: I was not going to press it, but I may do so now. We do not know how much this will Mr. S. Power: The Government decided to cost. We do not know what the cap was nor do appoint an outside company, and I have we know the identity of the company and we explained the reasons behind that. Despite what have been given spurious reasons for this. As Deputy Ryan has said, it is not an open-ended Senator Leyden said very well, there is a myth contract. that the HSE is not involved in any schemes to pay out money, but it is involved in schemes. The Mr. Ryan: The Minister of State does not know Minister of State tells me that the HSE is not able how much it will cost, though. to do something that it is doing. It pays out money for community welfare, it assesses Mr. S. Power: The HSE was given the job people’s means for medical cards and it has been of—— doing this for 40 or 50 years. At the back of all this is the Ta´naiste’s ideologi- Mr. Ryan: The Minister of State does not know cal agenda to privatise the health service and this how much it will cost—— is a test case. I do not care about that because I can argue with it on intellectual Mr. S. Power: Will the Senator please listen to 4 o’clock grounds. However, it is offensive to me for a second? present this House with an intellectu- ally unsustainable argument. If there is a reason Acting Chairman: The Minister of State, with- for doing this, I will listen to it as I do not have out interruption, please. ideological baggage. Like Senator Quinn, I believe that what is most efficient is what should Mr. S. Power: The HSE had the job of be done. I am singularly unpersuaded that what recruiting a company to assist in the repayment is going to be done will be more efficient. I am scheme and it initiated a tendering process. That utterly unpersuaded that it will be more cost first tendering process was terminated because it effective and because of this, I will press the felt it was not getting value for money. A second amendment. tendering process was advertised and a number of companies expressed interest. The HSE indicated Mr. Browne: If the firm has not completed the that the second batch of tenders was much more work after two years, will there be another competitive than the first. A figure of \50 million tendering process? The Minister of State spoke has been mentioned. This is a nice round figure about an open book but I am more confused than and easy to remember, I suppose, but it is not ever. This tendering process was advertised and going to be the colour of \50 million. The com- 11 expressions of interest were received. These pany has been picked and—— were short-listed to three but were not deemed to be suitable, so it was re-advertised. There was Mr. Ryan: Is the Minister of State on or off much suspicion about the whole process, the record? especially on the Government benches. Is the Minister of State categorically saying that the Mr. S. Power: I am quite happy to speak on or firm that won the contract was cheaper than the off the record, but I am giving the Senator the others? Will the firm turn out to be cheaper in facts. The board met on 1 June and the company the long term? was selected. Under the rules that must be observed, there is a 14-day cooling off period to Mr. S. Power: I will not let on that I am familiar allow other companies to raise objections to the with all the details of the companies that appointment, which will be completed within two tendered. I tried to give the House as much infor- days. The name of the company will be made mation as possible on the number of companies known, as will the costs of employing it. The con- that tendered for the second process. It is up to tract is over a two-year period, but it is not open- the HSE to decide the most competitive, most ended, and there was a cap on what the HSE efficient and the best tender on offer. I assume it could spend on the process. will have done the job well and the company 27 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 28

[Mr. S. Power.] Acting Chairman: I do not wish to stifle debate chosen will have some experience of large repay- but we have been on this amendment for over ments. While I cannot disclose the figure, the sum half an hour. There are many amendments to be of \50 million mentioned by a couple of Members debated and people will be disappointed if we do in this House and by others last week is wide off not get through them. the mark. We were told by the HSE that a signifi- cantly lower figure was accepted and will be paid Mr. Browne: Can I take it that under the two- to the company. The contract is for a two-year year rule, the company awarded the contract period and we expect that the repayments will be must finish everything after two years? What hap- processed during that period. pens if the work is not completed after two years? I put in an FOI request on this issue a month ago, Mr. Leyden: I do not want to make the Mini- but I have yet to receive any information on it. ster of State’s life difficult, but he has been del- We are working in the dark and it is incredible egated powers in the Department and he has how clandestine the operation has been. We do them signed, sealed and delivered by the not know how much it costs and we do not know who got the tender after a 14-day process. We are Ta´naiste. However, I am missing a point. Why is led to believe that nobody has objected yet, but this in the Bill if the decision has already been we do not know for sure. Will the Minister of made and the contract awarded to a company? State publish the documents in the interests of Would it not be more appropriate if the Bill was openness and transparency? He should give passed by both Houses, signed by the President Members the information available so that we are and then the contract awarded? That is why I in a better position to form an opinion. There is made strong representations to the Government no point in asking this of the HSE because I will not to go ahead with this. That is my personal not get an answer, despite going down the FOI opinion and it would be easy for me to sit back route. It is utterly frustrating as an Opposition and not have any view about it. As Senators from spokesperson. the Government party, we have a right to make our views known. Mr. S. Power: The impression could be given Of course I will vote with the Government on that we have staff in the HSE twiddling their the issue, but I am sure the Minister of State will thumbs with nothing to do, but nothing could be realise that this is our duty and that we can help further from the truth. We have no idle staff in the Government by pointing out all that can be the HSE. We spoke to representatives of the teased out in this House. I do not want to see a HSE in the early stages and they indicated that company awarded a contract and then have it they were not in a position to administer this taken away because the Bill has not been passed. scheme. They stated their support for the decision to engage an outside company to help in the Mr. Glynn: It must be appreciated that the time repayments. It was our intention to appoint the of HSE personnel also costs money. The HSE has company earlier than envisaged but we will not stated clearly that it is not in a position to deliver delay the legislation or the repayments. We on this service and that must be respected. I do would appreciate the support of all parties in both not believe that utterances are made without due Houses and we are keen to pass the legislation as consideration. I agree with the Minister of State quickly as possible and to begin the repayments and Senator Quinn and I respect the views of at the earliest possible date. Senators Ryan, Browne and Leyden. The time of We are not trying to hide anything, but a cer- a public official also costs money. It is a question tain procedure must be followed for the tendering process when the name of the company is not of the service being delivered within the shortest known. The Senator will know the name of the possible space of time and the optimum value for company involved and the cost of the contract money given. within 48 hours. If there is any other relevant The process which is being embarked upon is information he wants to know about the com- the correct one. I respect the right of those who pany, I am sure the HSE will be prepared to differ from me but as someone who has worked provide it. It is not the case that we are trying for a long time in the public service, there is a to hide anything. A certain procedure must be popular misconception that public service time followed, and we are following it. There is no does not cost anything. It certainly does cost desire on our part to keep any information from money as it is very important time. If the HSE the Senator. personnel had been involved in this process, they The contract is for two years and we expect the would be neglecting to do other work. The HSE work will be completed within that period. If at decided — I am sure after due consideration — the end of the two-year period it is considered that it was not in a position to do this and advised there is further work to be done that would the Government to go down another route. The require the advice and assistance of the company, HSE representatives have shown honesty and it would have to enter into new negotiations at responsibility in this matter. I support the Mini- that stage. The current contract into which the ster of State’s position and that of Senator Quinn. company has entered is for a two-year period. 29 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 30

Mr. Browne: Is there a penalty clause in the not the HSE, private individuals, who do not Bill in the event that the company does not know their way around the town of Athy, not to deliver on the work within that timescale? mention St. Vincent’s Hospital, will have to be trained in order that they can trawl through the Mr. Ryan: The Minister of State does not records. That has all sorts of implications for priv- know that. acy, data protection and other matters. I increasingly believe that this process has not Mr. Power: We will provide all details of the been thought through. What will happen is that contract at the end of the 14-day period. Within an agency will design and issue a glossy form and 48 hours we will be able to provide the Members when the forms are received, the agency will pass will more information than it is possible for me them to the HSE which will have to do the drudg- to give to them here today. ery of finding out whether the applications are valid. Acting Chairman: I gather Senator Ryan is pressing the amendment. Mr. Browne: I understand court cases are pending in regard to people who secured beds in Mr. Ryan: I wish to ask one question on the private nursing homes who would have chosen a amendment. Did the Government instruct the bed in a public nursing home but they were not HSE to put performance indicators into the con- available and a second choice or last resort was tract against which the efficiency of the con- made whereby a son or daughter, for example, tracting party would be measured? secured a bed for their mother or father in a private nursing home. We all know the result of Mr. Power: Securing value for money was the a judgment in a court case being different from priority of the HSE when it sought tenders for what is envisaged. Has the Minister of State pro- the appointment of an outside company. vided in the Bill for a successful outcome in those court cases? If a person, whose relative was put Mr. Ryan: The answer obviously is that it did into a private nursing home as a last resort, the not. person having tried to secure a bed for his or her relative in a public nursing home, such as St. Mr. Browne: The same could be said about Vincent’s Hospital in Athy, but was unable to do PPARS, which was supposed to save money in so because of a lack space, were to successfully the long term. challenge the legislation in court, it would have Mr. Ryan: Nothing has been learnt. major implications for this Bill. In that event, in regard to section 3, the terms of reference of the Question, “That the word proposed to be agency in charge of administering the scheme deleted stand”, put and declared carried. would widen considerably. Has the Minister of State taken account of that? Amendment declared lost. Mr. Leyden: In regard to the modus operandi Question proposed: “That section 3 stand part of this scheme, in the case of the Sacred Heart of the Bill.” Hospital in Roscommon, the staff have the records of the patients there and will have to give Mr. Ryan: I understand that everybody who is a breakdown of the patients who were there, due to receive a repayment will have been in a when they were there, their eligibility to qualify public hospital. That represents the overwhelm- for payment under the scheme and to whom the ing bulk of those concerned. Therefore, their money refunded should be paid. When repay- records will be held by the HSE. An outside body ments are made I hope the recipients will have will now have to trawl through those records. It an opportunity to spend and enjoy it. will either ask the HSE for this information, in I may have strayed from the issue, but I am which case employees of the HSE will have to speaking on the section and I hope the Acting dig through their records and do the work of this Chairman will allow me to make this point. In outside agency, or alternatively the body will large nursing homes there is not a common room, need to have access to all the records of these a canteen where one could have a refreshment, hospitals to carry out the work. How will a or a shop where one could buy a daily, weekly or private body suddenly work from the offices of, local newspaper, or a drink. I know the Acting say, St. Vincent’s Hospital in Athy where my Chairman may rule out of order the point I am mother is being cared for, as the Minister of State making. is aware? It is a classic example of a wonderful publicly provided hospital for older people. Acting Chairman: The matter is not covered by This process is about people applying for this section. repayments and their records being checked. Who will do the drudgery of checking the Mr. Leyden: Will the Minister of State, who has records? If it is to be the HSE, it will do most the responsibility for older people and for these work for which another body will be paid. If it is homes, arrange for a review of facilities available 31 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 32

[Mr. Leyden.] Question put and agreed to. for the elderly in them to ensure that such facili- ties are provided to enable them to spend the Section 4 agreed to. money that will be refunded rather than having to leave it to their families? NEW SECTIONS.

Acting Chairman: I suggest the Senator tables Mr. Browne: I move amendment No. 3: an amendment on Report Stage. In page 7, before section 5, but in Part 2, to insert the following new section: Mr. Leyden: I appreciate that but I did not get an opportunity to contribute during the Second “5.—Nothing in this Act shall be used to Stage debate. deny repayment of recoverable heath charges to any person who has received care in more Acting Chairman: I am aware of that but I than one long stay institution if that person cannot do anything about it. would otherwise have been eligible for such repayment.”. Mr. Leyden: I accept that. I know the Acting This amendment covers the right of people who Chairman’s position and I do not want to make have stayed in more than one institution to her job difficult. recover payments. Acting Chairman: We are making very slow Mr. Leyden: This is an interesting amendment progress. but the Minister of State outlined exactly how the scheme will operate as a result of the Supreme Mr. Leyden: I will not make matters any more Court decision. As to whether somebody else difficult for the Acting Chairman. takes another action in this regard, that is another day’s work. People who could not secure a bed in Acting Chairman: I cannot let the Senator a public institution and had to rely on the local make a Second Stage speech over and over again private nursing homes have a grievance. The on this Stage. Minister of State is aware of that because I am sure he has received representations to that effect Mr. Power: On Deputy Ryan’s point, it will be in his constituency. the responsibility of the company to dig out the records. However, as the Senator is aware, under Mr. S. Power: I am not in a position to accept the legislation introduced in December 2004, we this amendment because under the provisions of included an ex gratia payment of up to \2,000. the Bill applicants can already claim recoverable In that respect, slightly fewer than 11,000 people health charges from more than one institution. received that payment, the cost of which The Bill allows any recoverable health charge to amounted to \21 million. We have the number of be reclaimed under the scheme. This refers to the the records available in that context. It will be the responsibility of the company to access the amount paid of a charge imposed on a person records and scan them for the purpose of with full eligibility under the Health Charges for repayments. Inpatients Services Regulations 1976, as amended in 1987, or a contribution for inpatient services On Senator Browne’s point, the Supreme under the Institutional Assistance Regulations Court decision was quite specific on the people who are entitled to repayments. On foot of that 1954, as amended in 1965. Deputy Twomey decision this legislation was introduced. We are tabled a similar amendment in the Da´il where, clear on who will be entitled to receive the after some discussion, it was rejected. repayments. On Senator Leyden’s point, we will give Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. priority to the people who are living in that we will ensure their claims will be processed first. As Section 5 agreed to. to whether some of them will be in a position to Sections 6 and 7 agreed to. enjoy spending the money, I am sure some of them will and some of them will not. We will pay NEW SECTION. out the money as quickly as possible. The Bill provides for a special facility in terms of people Mr. Browne: I move amendment No. 4: do not wish to claim the money. They can put it into a fund which can be used for the purposes In page 9, but before section 8, to insert the which the Deputy mentioned. following new section: “8.—Without prejudice to the generality of Mr. Ryan: To pay the HSE. section 7, Mr. Leyden: I thank the Minister of State for (a) a determination as to a person’s eligi- that response. bility for a repayment of recoverable health 33 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 34

charges shall be made as soon as is reason- (b) there has been an overpayment of a ably possible and in each case no later than— prescribed repayment to, or in respect of, a person, then the scheme administrator shall (i) 28 days after an application has been make a report thereon to the Executive. lodged, or (2) Where it comes to the knowledge of the (ii) the commencement of this Act, Executive . . . then the amount of that pre- whichever is the later, and scribed repayment so procured, or of that over- (b) once a determination has been made payment, as the case may be, shall be repayable as to a person’s eligibility for a repayment of to the Executive on demand . . . recoverable health charges, such a payment In this instance the State does not delay or say it shall be made as soon as is reasonably pos- needs a reasonable time to administer or investi- sible and in each case no later than 28 days gate the repayment. When the executive dis- after such a determination has been made.”. covers that somebody owes it money because of This amendment to create a new section refers to a mistake under this scheme it wants the money the determination and repayment time limits. back immediately. When somebody whose This Government does not strike me as being money has been taken by the State makes an obsessed with deadlines and achieving targets. It application it will not consider any deadline, has taken a year and a half to reach this stage. whereas in the converse situation the State wants We are very quick to tell people when to pay the money back on demand or it will bring the their taxes, or pay back social welfare or agricul- person to court. tural overpayments, yet the State takes no That is the content of section 17 which is an responsibility to pay out on time. If someone example of the way the State, in my 25 years here, owes money he or she should repay it. In this case has consistently believed that there is one rule for the State finally and reluctantly admitted it owed the people from whom it wants something and money but no one has any idea when it will be another when people want something from it. paid back, even after determination has been This Bill would have been a wonderful oppor- made. tunity for the State to say it must deal with the It is not unreasonable to allow for a payment issue efficiently. I thought the objective of priv- to be made 28 days after a determination has atising the service was to give people efficiency been made. Not alone have the people in ques- but what we will get is the worst kind of public tion waited a year and a half for this legislation sector obscurantism, without any attempt to but in some cases they could have been waiting make the State accountable. Section 17 says it all. since 1998. There should be a sense of urgency about this but I do not get that impression from Mr. S. Power: The scheme will be administered the Minister of State or the Bill. I hope he will somewhat differently from what the Senators accept this amendment. indicate. Not alone will the people receive the moneys illegally taken from them but they will Mr. Leyden: The Minister of State will not be also receive interest. Applications for repayment in a position to accept this amendment because it will be processed and the person will receive noti- is not practical. Every case is separate and each fication of the amount to be repaid. On receipt of application must be properly processed to ensure that letter the person has 28 days within which to that the taxpayer’s interests are protected. The decide to accept or appeal that decision. If a per- Minister and the Minister of State, and their son feels that he or she is owed more money he officials, have assured me of this point. Private or she can appeal the initial decision, otherwise, consultants were brought in to speed up the pro- the cheque is issued immediately on receipt of cess. Deadlines would make the process more acceptance. difficult. We have provided \400 million this year for The Minister has also assured me that the repayments and if more money is required we will \2,000 has been repaid. Has everyone who was get it this year. We have no desire to withhold eligible received that sum? Nobody has told me the money any longer. Once a decision is made, he or she has received it, which is interesting. I we hope the money will be paid out as quickly as must check this myself. Senator Browne’s amend- possible. Apart from the moral issue, the longer ment, unlike that of Senator Ryan, is not we delay payments the more they will cost practical. because interest is also due. Those people who are still alive will receive priority and we hope to Mr. Ryan: The House should read section 17 process their claims as quickly as possible. I which states: cannot accept the claim the Senator is putting forward. (1) Where it comes to the knowledge of the scheme administrator that— Mr. Browne: One of the greatest crimes of (a) all or part of the payment of a pre- which this Government is guilty is abuse of the scribed repayment to a person has been pro- English language, in phrases such as “shortly”, cured through fraud or misrepresentation, or “as quickly as possible”, “imminently”. We have 35 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 36

[Mr. Browne.] Mr. S. Power: I cannot be any straighter than I all received replies containing these phrases and have been. The Senator’s proposal is ridiculous. assume they refer to weeks or days yet months or When an application is processed and a figure years later we find ourselves waiting and realise arrived at, the applicant is notified. It would be we have been hoodwinked. While I accept the impossible to pay the person within the 28 days Minister of State’s reply, I do not understand why because he or she has that period to appeal or timeframes cannot be set. Senator Ryan brought accept the payment. The Government has no home how the Government is quick to demand intention of delaying it any longer. If we accept money from people but will not pay it with the the Senator’s proposal and notify someone on 1 same speed. June and do not pay until 1 July we could leave ourselves open to a legal challenge. This type of It is important to specify time limits in legis- amendment ties us down unnecessarily. We are lation on this issue. I am sick of receiving replies providing the money and the people to adminis- from the Department of Health and Children and ter the scheme and we intend to process the the Health Service Executive using the words, applications as quickly as possible and to return “shortly”, “soon” or “in the near future”. Tabling the money. matters on the Adjournment is a joke because we rarely get a straight answer. Amendment put.

The Committee divided: Ta´, 15; Nı´l, 26.

Ta´

Bradford, Paul. Hayes, Brian. Browne, Fergal. Henry, Mary. Burke, Paddy. McDowell, Derek. Burke, Ulick. Norris, David. Coghlan, Paul. O’Toole, Joe. Cummins, Maurice. Ross, Shane. Feighan, Frank. Ryan, Brendan. Finucane, Michael.

Nı´l

Brady, Cyprian. Lydon, Donal J. Brennan, Michael. Mansergh, Martin. Callanan, Peter. Minihan, John. Cox, Margaret. Morrissey, Tom. Daly, Brendan. Moylan, Pat. O´ Murchu´ , Labhra´s. Dardis, John. O’Brien, Francis. Fitzgerald, Liam. O’Rourke, Mary. Glynn, Camillus. Scanlon, Eamon. Hanafin, John. Walsh, Jim. Kenneally, Brendan. Walsh, Kate. Kett, Tony. White, Mary M. Kitt, Michael P. Wilson, Diarmuid. Leyden, Terry.

Tellers: Ta´, Senators Browne and Cummins; Nı´l, Senators Minihan and Moylan.

Amendment declared lost. want to ensure that the receipt of repayments under this legislation will not affect anything SECTION 8. when people’s means are tested, regardless of how their means are tested. Mr. Ryan: I move amendment No. 5: I choose to believe at this stage that the In page 9, subsection (2), line 19, after “en- Government intends that no means-tested assist- actment” to insert “or under any other scheme ance or support of any kind will be affected by for the assessment”. the receipt of repayments of this nature. I have often adverted in this House to the fact that if Unlike some of the other amendments, which I one wins the lotto, one’s winnings are not subject suppose were a little contentious, this amendment to income tax but they do affect one’s entitlement and amendments Nos. 6 and 7 represent a simple to social assistance. While that seems like a pecul- attempt on my part to clarify something. Amend- iar approach, I can see the logic behind it. If one ment No. 5 relates to any assessment of people’s sues for damages following a car accident and is means by the State, under an enactment or other- awarded damages as a payment for one’s loss, the wise. People’s means are sometimes assessed moneys in question are assessed as part of one’s when there is no legal or legislative basis for it — means for the purposes of social welfare assist- there might be an administrative basis for it. I ance. I know about this matter because an aunt 37 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 38 of mine, who is now deceased, had her pension that the repayment to certain people of the reduced in such circumstances. The idea is that money that was stolen from them by the State the compensation for damage one receives is will affect them. I have proposed amendments regarded as part of one’s positive income. I have Nos. 6 and 7 for similar reasons. I would like to tabled amendment No. 5 to ensure that no form amend the reference to “a person’s entitlement, of means-tested payment will be affected by these or level of entitlement, to a health or social wel- repayments. I will speak about amendments Nos. fare benefit (including any subvention to be 6 and 7 in a moment. applied towards any such benefit)”. I am con- cerned because there is a distinction between Mr. S. Power: While I understand the intent of “benefit” and “assistance”. I sincerely hope I am Senator Ryan’s amendment No. 5, I am not in a mistaken in suspecting it is intended that the position to accept it, unfortunately. It would receipt of a repayment will be considered when allow for prescribed repayments to be dis- assessing people’s means and, therefore, will regarded for the purpose of the assessment of affect the payment of moneys to such people for means under non-statutory schemes. If I were to the purpose of any form of social assistance, such accept the amendment, a number of community as the non-contributory old age pension, which is or non-statutory schemes could be deemed to be a form of social assistance, supplementary welfare covered by this legislation. That could lead to allowance or unemployment assistance. legal or administrative difficulties. Only statutory When I saw the word “benefit” in the Bill, I schemes will be considered for the purpose of the hoped it was not what I thought it was. My scheme when disregarding repayments for the amendment will specifically include the words “or purpose of the assessment of means. assistance” to clarify the matter. I am gratified by the fact that the amendment has not been ruled Mr. Ryan: My concerns are legitimate. Do I out of order, because that means it has been understand correctly that the moneys given to accepted that I am not providing for the possi- people who receive State payments which are the bility of imposing an extra charge on the subject of a means test which is not based on an Exchequer. Perhaps that means I have to accept enactment will be reduced because they receive that the term “benefit” must include “assistance”. repayments under this legislation? It seems the However, I will await the Minister of State’s Minister of State is saying they want to leave a remarks. possibility in place for people who receive pay- ments which are not covered. I refer to payments Mr. S. Power: The Senator’s observations are which are means tested, other than via an enact- correct. ment. The Bill states that repayments “shall be disregarded in the assessment under any enact- Mr. Ryan: Which part of them? ment of a person’s means”. It seems to me that it is extraordinarily unfair that when officials are Mr. S. Power: The last part. To put his mind at assessing means other than under an enactment, rest, I am advised that the word “benefit” will they will be entitled to include this payment in cover “assistance”. Hence, I am not in a position their considerations. to accept the amendment. The Attorney General’s office is satisfied that the present word- Mr. S. Power: What we are saying is that only ing is sufficient for the purpose of the scheme. statutory schemes will be considered when dis- regarding repayments for the purpose of the Mr. Ryan: The Department of Social and assessment of means. This provision has been Family Affairs should be informed that it is the included on the advice of the Attorney General. Government’s intention that all statutorily-based social assistance schemes are included within the Mr. Ryan: Does the Minister of State trust term “benefit”. him? Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Mr. S. Power: We could not ignore that advice. Amendment No. 7 not moved. Amendment put and declared lost. Section 8 agreed to. Acting Chairman: As amendments Nos. 6 and 7 are cognate, they may be discussed together, Amendment No. 8 not moved. by agreement. Sections 9 and 10 agreed to. Mr. Ryan: I move amendment No. 6: In page 9, subsection (2), line 22, after SECTION 11. “benefit” to insert “or assistance”. Mr. Browne: I move amendment No. 9: When I tabled amendment No. 5, I thought I was simply being fussy, but I now realise I was actu- In page 13, between lines 32 and 33, to insert ally raising a serious issue. It seems it is intended the following new subsection: 39 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 40

[Mr. Browne.] assist the applicant as to how the determination “(9) In all cases under this section, a full cal- of repayment was arrived at. culation of the amount of the repayment shall be given to an applicant under subsection (2) Amendment put and declared lost. of this section, before he or she may give his or her written authorisation to the donation.”. Section 14 agreed to. This amendment proposes that before a person Section 15 agreed to. gives his or her consent to a refund from nursing home charges, he or she will be given a full calcu- SECTION 16. lation as to how the figure was arrived at, in order that he or she will be best informed to make a Mr. Ryan: I move amendment No. 12: decision in this regard. Hopefully, it might save time from being wasted on appeals in some cases. “In page 19, subsection (16)(a), line 17, after “relates,” to insert “or if the applicant had died Mr. S. Power: I do not accept this amendment or become incapable of acting, means a person because section 15(a) already provides that the affected by the decision,”. scheme administrator should give notice in writ- ing to the applicant of its decision and the reasons Section 16 concerns appeals against decisions and for its decision. In the case of those receiving a begins, “An aggrieved person may”, before going repayment, the reasons for the decision will through a appeals procedure. Section 16(16) then include a calculation of the amount of repayment. introduces a definition of the term, “aggrieved This will be especially important if any ex gratia person”. Logic would suggest that this definition deductions, or deductions of unpaid charges for should have been included before its first men- long-stay care, are to be taken from the overall tion. However, I must live with my confusion, as sum due. This will be an administrative process the world of parliamentary draftspeople is a and enabling an individual to determine how a world into which I have no insight. Moreover, calculation was reached for a particular repay- given my past experiences, the world in which the ment amount will help to reduce the number of Department of Health and Children drafts legis- potential appeals. Deputy Twomey proposed a lation is a world into which I have even less similar amendment, which was rejected following insight. due consideration. Nevertheless, the definition of “an aggrieved person” in section 16(16) states “in the case of Amendment put and declared lost. any decision referred to in that subsection, means the applicant”. Hence, if the applicant is deceased Amendment No. 10 not moved. or is incapable of taking responsibility for himself or herself, apparently there is no recourse to Section 11 agreed to. appeal. This is a good way to invite a court chal- lenge. It will invite trouble to state that no appeal Sections 12 and 13 agreed to. can be made because people are of unsound mind, or whatever the appropriate phrase is, and SECTION 14. cannot therefore make appeals themselves. Simi- larly, the suggestion that the legal representatives Mr. Browne: I move amendment No. 11: of a deceased person cannot appeal will also In page 16, between line 23 and 24, to insert make trouble. the following new subsection: I reiterate that the principle of charging people for the use of public nursing homes is perfectly “(5) Copies of particulars referred to in sub- reasonable, although it is a pity that the legislat- section (4)(f), showing how the amount falling ive basis for so doing was not sorted out. I hope due was calculated, shall be given to the rel- that a significant and substantial part of the evant person referred to in subsection (4)(a) or money which will be refunded will be used to sup- his or her next of kin as appropriate.”. port these services, either through the scheme This is similar to the previous amendment and provided in this Bill or some other. Like all while I will listen to the Minister of State’s expla- Members I have heard a few unfortunate and nation, I do not expect him to accept it. regrettable anecdotes pertaining to relatives who had not been seen for years but who came out Mr. S. Power: I do not accept this amendment of the woodwork with the appearance of a sniff because the provision of section 15(a) already of money. provides that the scheme administrator will give Nevertheless, given my understanding of the the applicant notice in writing, as well as the law’s operation, I propose, in respect of the reasons for the decision. In the case of a decision definition of “an aggrieved person”, to add to the indicating that an award is to be made, a calcu- phrase, “means the applicant”, and the phrase, lation of how the amount of the award was deter- “or if the applicant had died or had become mined will also be provided. In turn, this will incapable of acting, means a person affected by reduce the number of appeals and will help to the decision”. 41 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 42

Can the Minister of State explain how he can warned them that the previous legislation to this be certain this will not be open to significant legal was probably unconstitutional, the Attorney challenge? The applicants will be elderly people General advised the Government otherwise, and and will get to the stage where they are not cap- it was subsequently found to be unconstitutional. able of making the decision. If I wanted to be While I appreciate that the permission of the nasty, I could suggest that it is hoped that frail courts is needed, the fact that we leave it out does people will not go through the entire complicated not mean people will not seek the permission of process of appeal and that only a few will so do, the courts and the courts will, as they have done or, in other words, the Department is trying to in less obvious cases of injustice, give permission deter people from appealing. I hope this is not for the cases to be heard. We should legislate to the case. Undoubtedly, however, neither some- deal with this issue instead of it having to go to one who is incapable of making an appeal himself the courts. We could have thought of a way to or herself nor the estate of a deceased person can do so. appeal. While I cannot guarantee its outcome, I can guarantee that a forceful legal challenge will Mr. S. Power: No matter what legislation we follow this provision as sure as night follows day. pass in this House there is no guarantee that it This may give rise to a major delay and perhaps will not be challenged. to further costs. Mr. Ryan: We know that. Mr. S. Power: I do not accept this amendment because the legal advice received from the Mr. S. Power: A connected person can make Attorney General’s office indicates that no per- an appeal because he or she is joined. son not party to a decision can appeal a decision An Cathaoirleach: Is the amendment being without permission of the courts. The rules of the pressed? superior courts make it clear that no person has a right to be joined to an appeal without special Mr. Ryan: No. On the heads of the Govern- permission of the court hearing the appeal. ment be it. To minimise confusion that may arise in respect of this matter, the term “aggrieved per- Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. son” is being used to indicate that only an affected party can appeal against a Section 16 agreed to. 5 o’clock decision. If an applicant dies or becomes incapable, then a valid NEW SECTION. receipt cannot be obtained for any repayment under that application and no payment can be Mr. Browne: I move amendment No. 13: made under that application and a renewed appli- In page 19, before section 17, to insert the cation will be required. In the instance, as no following new section: valid receipt could be obtained and no repayment made, an appeal would not be considered. If a “17.—Before any appeal under section 16 repayment was made, the State may be exposed shall be allowed, the appellant shall have the to valid claims in the future as no valid receipt right to employ such local appeals process as could be obtained. In the case where the appli- are open to him or her.”. cant dies and is also the relevant person, a con- That section is ambiguous on what a person is nected person can make an application on behalf entitled to avail of in terms of appealing a of the relevant person. In the case where the decision which he or she believes was unfair. applicant dies and is not the relevant person, the There is no ambiguity on the right of the Mini- relevant person, or another connected person, ster, barristers and solicitors to apply. What rights can make an application. Alternatively the HSE has a person to appeal and what can he or she could make the application on behalf of the rel- use to enhance his or her case? evant person. Mr. S. Power: I do not accept this amendment An Cathaoirleach: Is the amendment being because an independent, transparent appeals pro- pressed? cess is to be established for this scheme. The appeals officer or officers will be provided with Mr. Ryan: That remains to be seen. Did the guidelines on the procedures for dealing with Minister of State say a connected person can appeals. Having one appeals process for the make the application but cannot appeal? That scheme will ensure a consistent approach to deal- confuses me. It may be that in my advancing ing with appeals. All applicants will be advised on years I am more easily confused than before but their right to an appeal and how to make it. in this case I do not think so. I do not have great A person who receives an award may make an faith in the constitutional judgment of the oral or written submission seeking a review of the Parliamentary Counsel. They have been found amount awarded under the scheme and the wrong as often as they have been found right. appeals process will be independent of the Although most Members of the Oireachtas scheme administrator and the HSE and will 43 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 44

[Mr. S. Power.] the scale of what the Government will have to notify the appellant in writing as soon as possible pay in defamation damages. of the outcome of the appeal and the reasons for Our amendment suggests that where the the decision. When an award is accepted under private operator concludes that there has been the appeals process the appellant must agree in fraud, misrepresentation or an overpayment, a writing to give up any rights he or she has to bring simple appeals process using the appeals mechan- a claim for damages in the courts in respect of ism already present under section 16(3), would that repayment. When an appellant decides not deal with many legitimate questions of natural to accept the decision of the appeals process, any justice. It is incomprehensible that the Parliamen- right to bring a claim for damages to the courts is tary Counsel would suggest that a private organis- not affected. ation can decide it made a mistake and can, with- The person appointed to determine appeals out apology, delay or explanation, demand it will be independent in the performance of his or back on the spot. There is no delay, appeal or her functions and will comply with guidelines pre- requirement to explain. pared by the Minister. Oral and written sub- The Department of Social and Family Affairs missions may be considered and the applicant will would no longer try that, but would implement a be informed of the outcome as soon as possible. process of appeals. However, in this case there is It will also be open to appellants to bring a com- no appeal. It is distasteful that section 17 refers to plaint to the Office of the Ombudsman. fraud and misrepresentation, which are legitimate concerns, and overpayment, which is a mistake Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. on the part of the paying agents. To put them in the same clause is nasty because it ties up fraud SECTION 17. and misrepresentation by individuals with errors Mr. Ryan: I move amendment No. 14: on the part of an agency and handles the three using the same process. That is not nice in a Bill In page 19, subsection (2), line 37, after that is meant to repair damage done by the State “then” to insert: over 25 or 30 years. “the Executive shall make a decision to that I move the amendment that there will be an effect, and shall notify the person to whom the administrative appeals system where there is a payment was made (or his or her estate) of that suggestion of fraud or misrepresentation or decision, and the person or his or her estate where there is an error. may appeal to a person appointed under section 16(3) in respect of such decision within Mr. S. Power: Unfortunately I cannot accept 14 days, (on grounds to be specified in a notice this amendment as an appeals officer cannot of appeal, which may include the ground that determine a matter of fraud, under the Consti- a genuine mistake occurred) and in default of tution only a court can determine if fraud has appeal, or on the dismissal of such appeal, occurred. The procedure is, if the scheme admin- thereupon”. istrator has a concern regarding a repayment made, he or she should inform the HSE. The I should not bother because only the Government HSE would then investigate the matter further will end up in a mess over this. A private body — and, if it is evident that it may be a case of fraud, this secret agency with its undefined budget about bring it to the attention of the person who which we will know in two days time — can dis- cover, after the process has been completed, that received the repayment. The HSE would make it overpaid a person. It can contact the HSE, known its concerns regarding the circumstances which can write to an elderly person in a hospital in which the money was received and the repay- bed and say it overpaid that person and that he ment in question could then be returned to the or she must pay the money back immediately. HSE. If this money were not forthcoming the There is no appeal and no need for the HSE to HSE could seek to recover the money through explain the reason. the courts and the court would ultimately decide Cases such as this will go to court. An elderly if a case of fraud had occurred. person would need to go to court to challenge an This is an issue that was discussed at length in administrative decision. If one wanted to invite the other House. Fraudulent claims are at issue serious constitutional questions about fairness here, where people provide false information and natural justice, one could not do so better when making an application. We have a duty to than through section 17. I do not care what advice the taxpayer to recoup payments made that the Attorney General gave. I have found over the should not have been made. I am not sure there years here that what one regards as reasonable is is an easy way to tell somebody, whatever his or a good way to judge the way the courts operate. her age, that he or she has been overpaid and If a private agency of the HSE decides a person must pay the money back. It should be dealt is guilty of fraud, notifies the HSE, and the HSE with sensitively. contacts the person and requests the defrauded money be repaid, the scale of the money being Mr. Ryan: The Minister of State should put repaid to people will be minuscule compared with that in the legislation. 45 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 46

Mr. S. Power: It is not easy to give bad news (b) there has been an overpayment of a and if people have money in their bank accounts prescribed repayment to, or in respect of, a there will always be a certain reluctance to repay person, it. If money has been received through a fraudu- then the amount of that prescribed repayment lent claim we have the duty to recoup it but the so procured, or of that overpayment, as the applicant will be notified about the mistake that case may be, shall be repayable to the Execu- has taken place. tive on demand. Mr. Ryan: Where does it say that? We are in very delicate legal territory here. In my view the HSE will receive legal advice to say as Mr. S. Power: How does it work under social little as possible because the more one says the welfare? That is how it will operate. more one is in danger of offering people reasons to go to court. Instead, people will get a brutal Mr. Ryan: Social welfare has a system of one-liner saying they were accidentally overpaid, appeals. that they now owe so many thousands of euro and must pay it back immediately. That is what Mr. S. Power: In these instances contact will be “on demand” means and these words were not made with the person who received the money chosen accidentally. It is an extraordinarily brutal notifying him or her. piece of language. Fraud and misrepresentation are deliberate Mr. Ryan: It does not say that anywhere. deceptions practised by some people which we all condemn. The Bill conflates these issues with Mr. S. Power: That is my understanding of the overpayment. Overpayment is an error on the scheme and the manner in which it will operate. part of the super-efficient new private body we People will be notified of the mistake. are to hear about later in the week which need only tell the HSE if a mistake is made for the HSE to write to the individual demanding Mr. Ryan: It does not say that. repayment. In my Second Stage speech I said the Ta´naiste Mr. S. Power: We will then enter into nego- deserved credit for facing up to this problem tiations. This is normal procedure in order to give when other people had ducked it. As a tail-end a person the opportunity to repay the money. to a sorry mess perpetrated by this State against its citizens, section 17 reflects poorly on public Mr. Ryan: It does not say any of this. administration and governance and I could not withdraw this amendment. Mr. S. Power: Taking a case to court will be a last resort. If moneys have been received through Mr. S. Power: We indicated in drawing up the false claims we have a duty to ensure they are scheme that we were trying to introduce a simple repaid as quickly as possible. system that would clarify for applicants how to apply and receive moneys in the most straight- Mr. Ryan: Now I know what they are doing. forward way possible and without necessitating The reason for conflating overpayment and pay- recourse to legal professionals. ment procured through fraud or misrepresen- The manner in which people are written to is tation is to use the latter to justify a brutally an administrative matter. Not everything can be insensitive method of recovering money. The put in legislation like the day on which letters Minister for State says such people will receive should be written or the type of pen to be used. written notification but there is nothing here to indicate that. The HSE and its various agencies Mr. Ryan: Come on. have much to learn and are often not models of sensitivity, one need only consider the cases of Mr. S. Power: Senator Ryan is convinced they people refused medical cards. How can we pre- will receive blunt, one-line letters and that is the sume that the HSE will deal with these cases sen- worst case scenario. In general, Departments sitively? Why could it not have been explicitly dealing with repayments, such as the Department added to the Bill that the HSE “shall write to the of Social Welfare, do so in a sympathetic and sen- individual and ask for his or her comments”? I do sitive way. The sheriff will not be called on the not know, but it was not included in the Bill. first day, though if moneys were paid in error we Instead section 17(2) of the Bill states: have a duty to try to recoup them. Where it comes to the knowledge of the The oversight committee has been involved throughout the passage of this legislation and it Executive that— aims to ensure that the processes put in place (a) all or part of the payment of a pre- are appropriate. scribed repayment to a person has been pro- cured through fraud or misrepresentation An Cathaoirleach: Is the amendment being [there is no burden of proof there], or pressed? 47 Health (Repayment Scheme) Bill 2006: 13 June 2006. Committee Stage 48

Mr. Ryan: No. (a) all or part of the payment of a pre- scribed repayment to a person has been pro- Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. cured through fraud or misrepresentation, This does not force the scheme administrator — Question proposed: “That section 17 stand part of the Bill.” a private agency — to prove anything. The term “comes to the knowledge” is a wonderful phrase Mr. Ryan: Where did the Government get the which does not often come up. It is a bit better advice that a bureaucrat can decide that some- than an opinion. thing has been done through fraud? There is no The issue will be handled badly by an agency adjudication by any court on this issue, it is not which will not perform nearly as well the Govern- being suggested that an individual will be brought ment would have us believe. The matter of the to court in order retrieve the money. What is working families tax allowance in Britain is rel- being said is that some bureaucrat or whiz kid evant. It is a wonderful idea which has been hand- executive of a new agency will decide that the led so badly in Britain that it could well cost the agency has been defrauded. He or she can write British Labour Party the next general election. A to the HSE, which will in turn look at the case number of mistakes were made in the assessment, and write to another bureaucrat. and six months later people received a brutal let- It should be remembered that we are talking ter looking for money to be returned. about the most obscure agency the State has ever I do not understand why a simple process was seen. The incapacity of the HSE to provide infor- not outlined, particularly for cases where mis- mation should be mentioned if one wants to takes are made by the paying body. A simple reduce six Members to foaming incoherence. It stipulation could have been inserted to reassure does not matter if the Members are from the people that a process exists to get the mistake Government or Opposition side. No agency I am adjudicated on by somebody independent, and a aware of reduces Members to such foaming inco- way of repaying money could be outlined. This herence as when they are brought together to list does not relate to staged payments of \20 per the inabilities of the HSE in dealing with people month. This outlines payment on demand, or else on the most routine matters. We are now sup- court proceedings will take place. posed to believe that the agency will develop a I am surprised. I did not follow the legislation significant level of sensitivity. This agency has through the Da´il, but once I read the section I stated it is not competent enough to hand out wondered where our heart had gone. money, yet it believes itself to be competent enough to make judgments on whether people Mr. S. Power: I am a little bit confused about committed fraud. Senator Ryan. An hour ago he told us he was Where is the legal expertise available to the very critical of the appointment of an outside HSE, which has stated it cannot hand back the company and he indicated that the HSE was the money which it took off people? It can apparently body to deal with this issue as it had the only deal with money in one direction. It could resources. The Senator is now talking of the poor take money very efficiently and, as it turned out, performance it expects from the executive and its illegally. Various agencies could do likewise. inability to carry out certain functions. Although the executive could take money from one channel, it has found itself incapable of send- Mr. Ryan: I am taking the executive at its word. ing money down another channel. Nevertheless, it still feels capable of labelling an action Mr. S. Power: We set up a system, and it is fraudulent. important that within the system there is some There is not even a definition of fraud in the mechanism for recouping moneys wrongly paid Bill. The executive will apparently recognise out. A fraudulent claim could be from a person fraud and ask for the money back when appro- or son or daughter of such person. If moneys have priate. It will be up to the individuals concerned been paid out which should not have been, every to go to court. The people concerned should be effort should be made to recoup them. This is the noted, who will be older people, their children, or system we have put in place to do so. I do not those in charge of older persons’ estates. They imagine too many older people will make false will start with the old people. The executive will claims. tell these people that they defrauded the execu- tive. That is wonderful. Mr. Ryan: I can imagine State agencies mak- One would think that in order to avoid the risk ing mistakes. of further hurt to older people, we would have put in place some way of ensuring that such Mr. S. Power: If such agencies did, they would action was not taken unless there is proof. There put their hands up. It would not be the first time. is no proof. The section states: Where it comes to the knowledge of the Mr. Ryan: They would put their hands out scheme administrator that— looking for money to be returned. 49 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 50

Mr. S. Power: Where humans are working, not be tolerated, and it should be no different for there will always be errors. Neither the HSE, any the public sector. The public sector is very good company nor any individual would claim other- in Ireland and has been capable of brilliance and wise. This is the system we have put in place. The great achievements. Unfortunately, at times, it oversight committee has been involved in all the has gone wrong. drafting of this legislation and it is quite happy People should be held accountable and made with the process we have put in place today. The responsible. At this stage, the taxpayer is blue in heavy-handedness predicted by the Senator will the face because of this issue. Recently, in not happen. The oversight committee, along with Carlow, sports grants were given out for hundreds Members in this House, will cast an eye on it. of thousands of euro. This was fair enough, although some groups did not get any money. Mr. Ryan: The HSE is the most impenetrable These groups do not mind this so much until they body ever created in this State. see much squandering of public money in other areas. The issue then sticks in the throat. Mr. S. Power: Many of our constituents will We must introduce sanctions and beef up the deal with the HSE over the next 12 to 24 months. Committee of Public Accounts and the Office of I am sure we will be kept fully appraised of how the Comptroller and Auditor General. We should the system is operating. I am confident the system hold people to account, which is not happening we have put in place is a good one which will at the moment. work well. Mr. S. Power: I am surprised the Senator is so Question put and agreed to. keen today on putting sanctions in place. When he had an opportunity to table amendments he SECTION 18. did not propose any.

Question proposed: “That section 18 stand part Mr. Browne: It is a general point. of the Bill.” Mr. S. Power: This section is a safeguard we Mr. Browne: This section deals with the have put in place where the Comptroller and Comptroller and Auditor General scrutinising Auditor General shall be entitled to audit for the accounts, but there is no mention of sanctions. purpose of the Act. It is necessary as a large sum The committee structure within the Houses is of money is involved. It is important we have the quite new by comparison with what is established Comptroller and Auditor General involved in in other Parliaments, but we have all marvelled that way. at the American committee system in the US Houses of Congress, which have real power. Mr. Browne: He has no teeth. I watch “Oireachtas Report” on a Thursday evening, and every week we see scandalous over- Question put and agreed to. runs of taxpayers’ money by different agencies, with the Comptroller and Auditor General bring- Sections 19 to 23, inclusive, agreed to. ing forward reports and them to the cross-party Committee of Public Accounts, whose members Title agreed to. then express surprise and shock. Everyone then goes home and no sanctions seem to come about. Bill reported without amendment. Nobody is held accountable and nobody appears responsible. Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, 14 June I fear the same will happen here. It is a pity 2006. there is no section detailing who would be held responsible. There is a complete lack of democ- International Criminal Court Bill 2003: Second racy in the health service area. If one asks the Stage. Minister for Health and Children a simple ques- tion it is bounced back to the HSE and it will take Question proposed: “That the Bill be now read months to get back to the person who raised the a Second Time.” question, if it happens at all. If the HSE does Minister of State at the Department of Justice, reply, God knows what type of an answer it will Equality and Law Reform (Mr. Fahey): The pur- be. It will certainly not be the answer sought, or it pose of this Bill is to give effect in Irish law to will not be complete. This will be another agency the provisions of the Statute of the International outside the remit of the HSE, the Department of Criminal Court, done at Rome on 17 July 1998, Health and Children and the Minister. otherwise known as the Rome statute. The Bill I am concerned about this although I know creates domestic offences and associated penal- nothing can be done at this stage. I hope we do ties for ICC crimes of genocide, crimes against not have a Bill like this again, but in future similar humanity and war crimes. It enables assistance to legislation there should be sanctions if people fail be given to the ICC by permitting the arrest and to meet targets. In the private sector that would surrender of persons requested by the ICC. The 51 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 52

[Mr. Fahey.] are responsible for the administration of the Bill also provides for freezing of assets and court; the divisions or chambers of the court com- enforcement of ICC orders for fines or forfeiture prising pre-trial, trial and appeal divisions; the of such assets to the ICC and other forms of prac- independent office of the prosecutor; and the tical assistance in the investigation of ICC registry with responsibility for non-judicial offences. The Bill also provides for sittings of the administration of the Court. An Irish judge at the ICC in the State and related technical matters. International War Crimes Tribunal for the Members of this House will recall that this Bill former Yugoslavia, Ms Maureen Harding Clark, is preceded by a constitutional amendment, which was elected as one of the 18 judges of the court. was approved by a majority of voters in a refer- At subsequent meetings of the state parties, the endum held in June 2001. The amendment was prosecutor, deputy prosecutor and registrar of the enacted in 2002. It ensures that the State’s consti- court were elected. Since their appointment, the tutional obligations will not conflict with the various organs of the ICC have been active in fulfilment of its obligations under the Rome stat- recruiting staff, drafting regulations and for- ute since submission.to the jurisdiction of the ICC mulating policies to inform their work, in readi- necessitates a partial transfer to the ICC of the ness for the court’s first cases. sovereign power of the State to administer crimi- The ICC is already operational in that it has nal justice. received referrals from state parties. These relate The International Criminal Court is a new to the Ugandan Government’s conflict with the departure in the struggle to bring to justice those Lord’s Resistance Army, an alleged incident in who commit crimes against humanity. Unlike pre- Ituri in the Democratic Republic of Congo and vious tribunals, it is the first court to be estab- an incident in the Central African Republic. lished on a permanent international basis and it These have become the court’s first cases. Most will be in the first court to be in existence before recently, the UN Security Council adopted Resol- a conflict breaks out. This permanency should ution 1593 on 31 March 2005 referring the ensure a proactive rather than reactive response ongoing conflict in Darfur to the ICC. This case to such atrocities in the future. is important to the ICC because it is the Security The framework which paved the way for the Council’s first such referral and represents a wel- establishment of the ICC was to create an inde- come affirmation of the legitimacy of the ICC. It pendent international court but also a court demonstrates the court’s authority and the inter- dependent on the executives of the various juris- national community’s commitment to ending dictions which it represents for its functioning. As impunity. a result, the court is independent in the exercise Another important recent development was of its functions but is, at the same time, depen- the arrest and transfer to the ICC of Thomas dent on assistance from state parties in bringing Lubanga Dyilo, a Congolese national and alleged perpetrators of ICC crimes to justice. founder and leader of the Union des Patriotes The establishment of the ICC has its roots in Congolais, UPC. This arrest was on foot of a war- the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Pun- rant issued by the pre-trial chamber dealing with ishment of the Crime of Genocide and the this referral. The chamber found there were Geneva Conventions of 1949. These conventions reasonable grounds to believe that Mr. Lubanga developed the scope of genocide as a crime had committed the war crime of conscripting and against humanity and extended international enlisting children under the age of 15 and using responsibility into situations of international con- them to participate actively in hostilities. While flict. During the Nuremberg and Tokyo trials, not wishing to pre-empt the outcome of pro- crimes against humanity were linked to armed ceedings before the court, this first arrest and conflict. The recent tribunals of the former Yugo- transfer to the court marks a significant milestone slavia and Rwanda have now established these in its development and demonstrates that the crimes as self-standing to be prosecuted even in mechanisms established by the Rome statute can the absence of armed conflict. have real effect in practice. These tribunals also served to revive the inter- The International Criminal Court brings a new national momentum for establishing a perma- sense of individual criminal responsibility to these nent, international, independent criminal court. international crimes. The ICC jurisdiction The work of the International Law Commission, extends to offences committed by nationals of which were tasked with the development of pro- state parties, or committed on the territory of posals for a permanent International Criminal state parties and non-state parties who consented Court, culminated in a text finalised at a meeting to the ICC having a role. This individual responsi- of the international community in Rome in July bility is extended to ensure that any diplomatic 1998. The International Criminal Court entered immunity attaching to a person because of a con- into force on 1 July 2002, by which time 60 states nection with a state party is not a bar to pro- had ratified the statute. To date, 100 states have ceedings. As in the Darfur case, the court also has become party to the statute. jurisdiction over crimes committed in situations The court, which has its seat in the Hague, is anywhere in the world which are referred to it by comprised of four organs: the presidency, con- the United Nations Security Council. In addition sisting of a president and two vice presidents who to prosecuting the perpetrators of crimes, the 53 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 54 court may also prosecute those in authority who While such stringent measures are necessary in order crimes to be committed including Heads of the prosecution of these crimes, the statute is State and government officials. This formulation balanced with equally demanding safeguards to should ensure that people holding state positions protect the rights of the accused and also to who orchestrate such attacks on humanity cannot reflect state parties’ genuine concerns for their hide behind their office so as to evade pros- sovereignty. This is reflected in the Bill in that, ecution. Sections 13 and 61, respectively, of the although the Irish High Court in considering a Bill implement this criminal responsibility. request for surrender may not review the grounds Apart from these specific ICC provisions, the supporting the request as authorised by the pre- Irish courts may apply domestic criminal law trial chamber, there is the possibility of admissi- principles when considering ICC offences. Under bility and jurisdictional challenges. section 3 of the Bill, the courts may also take into At each stage in the arrest and surrender pro- account the rules of procedure and evidence, the cess established in Part 3 of the Bill, there is a elements of crime and any relevant judgment or brake on proceedings to allow for the possibility decision of the ICC, together with the prepara- of admissibility challenges before the ICC. Thus, tory background work in drafting the statute and the Minister may postpone the certification of a the published views of commentators on the request for surrender in section 19 until any chal- operation of the statute. lenge to the admissibility of the case or to the Individual criminal responsibility is grounded ICC’s jurisdiction is determined. Similarly, the on the principle of complementarity of the Stat- High Court will not make a surrender order ute of Rome. The ICC is not a substitute for under section 25 if there are challenges to national criminal justice systems in that it will admissibility. Additionally section 27 ensures that only take on an investigation where a state is a person who has been committed under a surren- der order may not be surrendered until 15 days unwilling or unable genuinely to carry out the after the order has been made or, alternatively, investigation or prosecution. As such, it is an until all appeal proceedings have been deter- institution to encourage states to prosecute such mined. Even after the High Court has made the international crimes rather than seek to diminish surrender order, the Minister, under section 31, states’ domestic judicial authority. Under Article may still postpone the actual surrender pending 14 of the statute, any state party can refer a crime the conclusion of any admissibility challenges. to the prosecutor and no state party has a veto The statute also recognises the rights of the over prosecution. In addition, as previously individual by specifying a schedule of entitle- noted, the ICC may consider offences wherever ments in Article 55, typical of the standards committed, if referred by the United Nations expected in an Irish criminal prosecution. The Security Council. statute places particular emphasis on guarantee- In terms of the jurisdiction to be taken by state ing the interests of victims of ICC crimes. This parties, the statute requires that they provide complement of rights creates obligations through- jurisdiction for crimes committed on the territory out the Bill, and rather than list these at this of the state, or by a national of the state outside point, I will make appropriate references to the the state. A further category of jurisdiction — rights as I elaborate on individual provisions in universal jurisdiction — whereby jurisdiction is the Bill. adopted over any offence committed in any state The rights of persons coming before the Irish by a person of any nationality, was previously courts in connection with a domestic prosecution adopted in the Geneva Conventions Acts 1962 of an International Criminal Court offence are and 1998 in respect of grave breaches under the similar to domestic rights during any criminal Geneva Conventions of 1949 and Additional Pro- prosecution. The rights of individuals appearing tocol 1 to the Geneva Conventions of 1977. As before the ICC are further protected by the many of these grave breaches are comparable administration of the ICC. Before the prosecutor with ICC offences, universal jurisdiction is also proceeds with an investigation, the pre-trial adopted in section 12 for those ICC offences, chamber of the court must be satisfied that the which are also grave breaches. It is a matter for person has committed a crime within the juris- Irish courts to decide, depending on the facts on diction of the ICC and that the arrest of the per- the particular case, whether the ICC offence is son is necessary to ensure his or her appearance comparable with a grave breach for the purposes at trial. The pretrial chamber must also be satis- of exercising such universal jurisdiction. fied that the arrest of the person is necessary to The creation of a permanent independent pros- ensure that he or she does not obstruct or ecutor who can investigate and prosecute ICC endanger the investigation or court proceedings, offences is yet another strength of the ICC as and to prevent the person from continuing with compared with previous tribunals. This is of criti- the commission of that crime which is within the cal importance in cases where democracy has jurisdiction of the court. Thus, the individual’s broken down and where state institutions may rights are protected by the pretrial chamber not be available to undertake such investigations. before trial and by the ICC during the trial itself. Section 59 of the Bill implements this provision I now turn to the specific provisions of the Bill, in the Irish context. which is in six parts and has three schedules. Part 55 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 56

[Mr. Fahey.] Article 59 of the statute provides accordingly. If 1 lays down preliminary matters for co-operation the request conflicts in any way with the State’s with the ICC and for the hearing of ICC offences obligations under diplomatic immunity, it is pre- by Irish courts. It defines key terms and makes sumed that it is a matter for the ICC to resolve general provisions regarding interpretation by these issues under Article 98 of the statute in Irish Courts of the Act and of the statute. This advance of making the request. part also deals generally with requests from the Sections 16 to 22 establish the basis for receipt ICC, including the procedures to be followed of an ICC request for the arrest and surrender where the disclosure of information might be of the requested person. The arrangements are prejudicial to the security interests of the State. similar to those under the International War Expenses incurred in the administration of the Crimes Tribunal Act 1998 in that once a request Act are also provided for in this part. is received and certified by the Minister to be in On the effect on Irish criminal law, Part 2 has order, a warrant of arrest is issued by the High the greatest impact because it establishes Court. It is appropriate that these requests are domestic jurisdiction for ICC offences. The exist- considered by a superior court because of the ing offence of genocide is consolidated in section serious nature of the crimes within the remit of 7, while in section 6 existing definitions of war the ICC and because the ICC may be requesting crimes under the Geneva Conventions are the surrender of a person who has not yet been expanded and a new offence of crimes against charged, much less prosecuted or convicted of a humanity is created. Ancillary offences are crime. There are also safeguards from an ICC created in section 8 while new offences against perspective in that the prosecutor must satisfy the the administration of justice, either before the pre-trial chamber of the ICC that there are “rea- ICC or before an Irish court considering an ICC sonable grounds to believe that the person has offence, are created in section 11. committed a crime within the jurisdiction of the Sections 9 and 10 require the consent of the ICC”. Director of Public Prosecutions before initiating The other significant difference from domestic these proceedings, while the gravity of these criminal investigation and prosecution is that in crimes is reflected in the applicable sentences for urgent cases a person may be detained on a pro- these offences which correspond to the penalties visional arrest warrant issued by the High Court in the Rome statute, that is, life for murder or for up to 60 days, as required by the statute, where the seriousness of the offence justifies pending the receipt of a formal request from the same and, in all other circumstances, imprison- ICC. While provisional arrest warrants are not ment for up to 30 years depending on the nature unusual in extradition proceedings, this detention of the offence. The courts may also order a fine or forfeiture in accordance with the Article 77 of period is in contrast to a maximum detention of the statute. In such instances, the Criminal Justice 18 days in extradition cases. Act 1994 is triggered to facilitate enforcement of Section 18 provides for situations where there the orders. is an extradition request competing with the ICC Other sections in this part deal with items such request. If the competing request is received from as universal jurisdiction, in section 12, the applic- another state party or from a third state where no able law in determining whether a person has international obligation exists to comply with the committed an offence under the Act, in section request, the Bill gives priority to the ICC request. 13, and provisions for the protection of victims Where there is an international obligation to con- and witnesses, in section 14. sider, the Bill lists the factors to be taken into Part 3 of the Bill deals with requests for arrest account before any decision is reached. and surrender of persons to the ICC in connec- Once arrested, sections 23 to 29 require that a tion with the investigation, prosecution of an ICC person be shown a copy of a warrant of arrest offence or, alternatively, surrender to a state of either at the time of arrest or within 24 hours of enforcement for the enforcement of an ICC sen- arrest and also requires that the person be tence. This part implements the requirement in brought immediately before the High Court. The Article 91(2)(c) of the statute that the require- High Court, on being satisfied that there are no ments are not more burdensome than those outstanding issues of admissibility, may make an applicable to extradition requests in treaties to order for surrender to take place not earlier than which the State is a party. This part is informed 15 days after the making of the order. In accord- on the basis that it is a matter for the ICC and ance with the rights articles of the statute, the not either the Minister or the High Court to ques- person must also be provided with a competent tion the validity or authorisation of a warrant. interpreter and legal aid where necessary. The Minister may seek further information in The Bill also provides that the High Court has support of a request and the High Court may con- the powers of adjournment, remand and bail sider the execution of the warrant of arrest and including, but not limited to, the powers of the whether the rights of the individual regarding the High Court in criminal matters. Included in these arrest have been respected. Any matters concern- powers is provision for an appeal on a point of ing whether the warrant of arrest has been prop- law to the Supreme Court against an order to erly issued are to be considered by the ICC, and grant or refuse surrender. The habeas corpus pro- 57 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 58 cedure under Article 40.4.2 of the Constitution the various other organisations involved in the will also be available. enforcement of these orders. Once a surrender order has been made by the Part 5 makes provision for other forms of High Court, it is a matter for the Minister to assistance to the ICC in the investigation or pros- arrange for the surrender of that person and ecution of ICC offences. With the exception of sections 29 to 33 provide accordingly. The person section 56, which relates to transit of surrendered concerned may consent to surrender in which persons through the State as provided for in case the previously mentioned time limits do not Article 89(3) of the statute, the authority for the apply. Provision is also made for the Minister, in requests in this part is derived from Article 93. consultation with the ICC, to postpone the mak- The provisions in this part are again to a large ing of a surrender order pending the finalisation extent modelled on the provisions of the Criminal by the court of any admissibility or jurisdictional Justice Act 1994 but are repeated as the requests challenges or pending the conclusion of domestic are originating from the International Criminal investigations or proceedings, excluding extra- Court rather than an individual state as under the dition proceedings. Where it is necessary in the 1994 Act. Also, as the requests are from the ICC, interests of the person’s health, provision is made procedures are simplified where possible while at for alternate custody in a hospital pending surren- the same time affording the individual the same der. Where it appears to the Minister on the basis rights as in a criminal investigation in the State. of information received that the request for sur- The assistance provided in this part ranges render is not being proceeded with, provision is from the provision of identification evidence in made for the person to be released. In any event, section 50 to location of persons, examination of once all appeal proceedings have been concluded sites, including the exhumation and examination and where there are no postponements in place of grave sites and provision of documents in or health considerations preventing surrender, section 51. This part also provides further practi- the High Court may order the release of the per- cal investigative assistance in the service of ICC son from custody if the person is not surrendered documents, including a summons by the gardaı´ in within one month of the surrender order being section 54. Additional information may be sought made. by either taking evidence before a District Court The final provisions of this part, sections 34 to judge under section 52 or, under section 53, ques- 36, provide for the possibility of subsequent tioning of a person by the gardaı´ on behalf of the arrest or surrender following release under this ICC. Section 55 also provides for the transfer of part and also provide for sentence calculation for persons already in detention for other offences at a prisoner to the ICC for the purposes of provid- the time of the arrest and surrender. The Minister ing information. may also waive the rule of speciality and consent The general framework for requests under this to a person being proceeded against for any con- part is that the Minister on receipt of a request duct committed prior to surrender other than the and having considered the request will forward conduct for which he or she has been surren- it to the Garda Sı´ocha´na for attention. The Bill dered. This waiver may be subject to the receipt provides for the involvement of the District Court of any information or assurances as may be neces- in the authorisation of warrants and orders to sary from the ICC. proceed in cases of refusal to comply with Part 4 establishes the co-operative framework requests for identification evidence or obstructing to enable compliance with ICC requests to freeze the locating of persons or property. and subsequently confiscate assets of the accused. This framework seeks to establish a balance Article 77 of the statute provides that fine and between, on the one hand, assisting the ICC in forfeiture orders may be imposed in addition to the investigation of these most heinous forms of prison sentences. The imposition of fines is gov- crime and, on the other, safeguarding the rights erned by the rules of procedure and evidence of of those subject to ICC requests. This balance is the court while proceeds, property and assets struck both by reference to the statute provisions derived directly or indirectly from ICC crime may and also by way of specific safeguards in the Bill. be forfeited without prejudice to the interests of Where co-operation involves the direct partici- bona fide third parties. The statute also envisages pation of the individual, as in the case of finger- the establishment of a trust fund for the benefit printing, questioning, taking of evidence, transfer of victims of ICC crimes and for the families of of a prisoner to the ICC and, as far such victims. Using this fund, the ICC may order 6 o’clock as possible, in connection with money and other property collected through fines searches of property, the consent of or forfeiture to be paid over to the fund. the person involved must be sought. In addition The procedures established in this part follow to consent, a person being questioned in connec- the precedents established in the Criminal Justice tion with an ICC offence must be informed of his Act 1994 with some minor amendments because or her rights under Article 55 of the statute and the ICC rather than individual states is making must be provided with a competent interpreter the request for freezing or confiscation of assets. and legal assistance where necessary. These safe- There are also some changes in the notification guards also apply to any person giving evidence arrangements to reflect working arrangements of where it appears that there are grounds for sus- 59 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 60

[Mr. Fahey.] may, while sitting in the State, perform its func- pecting that the individual has committed an tions under the statute and has the effect of ICC offence. applying the statute as though the ICC was sitting Where a person is being questioned by the in The Hague. For this reason, orders made by Garda, section 53 provides a further safeguard in the ICC during a trial in the State are not review- fulfilment of an ICC obligation, that the question- able by the Irish courts. This part also provides ing be video recorded and the recording for- for investigations in the State by the ICC warded to the ICC. In the case of the person giv- prosecutor. ing evidence before the District Court under Sections 60 and 61 are concerned with immun- section 52, the person will not be compelled to ity under the statute. First, there is immunity for give any evidence to the District Court that he or all the judges, the prosecutor and all other staff she would not be compelled to give in criminal and persons as required by the statute and further proceedings in the State. Where necessary the detailed in the Agreement on Privileges and judge may also direct that proceedings be held in Immunities signed by Ireland on 9 September private so as to ensure the attendance and protec- 2003. Section 60 limits the application of such tion of witnesses, and to protect victims, or privileges by applying them only in so far as is indeed, persons alleged to have committed an applicable under the agreement and recognises ICC offence. This part also provides for the that these immunities may be waived as provided service of documents. If the document is a sum- for under the agreement. Diplomatic or state mons requiring attendance before the ICC as a immunity is not a bar to proceedings under the witness, section 54 requires that it be Act. For information, the text of the agreement accompanied by a notice highlighting that differ- is included in Schedule 2 to the Bill. ent procedures may apply in the ICC compared Section 62 of the Bill provides that Ireland may with criminal proceedings in the State. The notice ask the ICC for assistance in the investigation and must indicate that the ICC has provided, or has prosecution of an ICC offence for which there is the authority under Article 93(2) to provide, an a minimum sentence of five years. Finally, assurance that the person will not be prosecuted, sections 63 to 65 provide for technical matters detained or subjected to any restriction of per- associated with the operation of the Bill. Section sonal freedom by the ICC in respect of any act 63 sets out the evidentiary standards of ICC docu- that preceded his or her departure from the State. ments coming before the domestic courts. Section There are three summary offences created in 64 provides for regulations in connection with the this part. Section 51 provides for two offences in implementation of the statute to be laid before respect of obstructing a member of the Garda each House of the Oireachtas. The final section Sı´ocha´na in carrying out a search or failing to provide such information as is requested by the of the Bill provides for consequential amend- Garda Commissioner in carrying out the request. ments to other legislation. These are detailed in Section 52 creates an offence where a person who Schedule 3. The Defence Act 1954 and the is giving evidence to the District Court on an ICC Geneva Conventions Act 1962 are amended so as offence, without reasonable excuse fails or ref- to align penalties available for ICC offences with uses to comply with a requirement to produce a comparable offences in these Acts. The Extra- document or other item to the court. Although dition Act is amended so as to apply extradition the District Court may order the arrest of a per- to ICC offences and to exclude such offences son, who refuses to attend a Garda station to from classification as “political offences”. The provide identification evidence as requested by Diplomatic Relations and Immunities Act 1967 is the ICC, section 49 does not create an offence if amended to make diplomatic immunity under that person refuses to give the identification evi- that Act subject to obligations under the Rome dence sought. This is in recognition of the per- statute. Finally, the Bail Act 1997 is amended so son’s right to silence under Article 55 of the stat- as to include ICC offences — as serious offences ute. However, the fact that the person did not for which bail might be refused under that Act. consent, will be recorded in the Garda report for- This Bill sends a clear message to the per- warded to the Minister for transmission to the petrators of these international crimes that International Criminal Court. Ireland will not shirk our international obli- Section 57 — the final section of this part — gations in safeguarding international peace from provides that the enumerated assistance does not atrocities inflicted on innocent persons in war- preclude giving any other lawful assistance to torn jurisdictions. It adds another voice to that of the ICC. the international community in seeking to bring The final part of the Bill, Part 6, deals with mis- the perpetrators of these crimes to justice. It is cellaneous matters arising in connection with the a statement of our support for the International ICC sitting in the State to hear cases, immunities Criminal Court, and of our commitment to ensur- and privileges relating to the ICC and technical ing that it receives the assistance necessary to matters associated with the operation of the Bill. meet the challenges of the Rome statute in Section 58 takes account of statute provisions investigating and prosecuting these crimes. whereby the ICC may sit outside the seat of the I commend the Bill to the House and look for- court in The Hague by providing that the ICC ward to Members’ contributions. 61 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 62

Mr. Cummins: I welcome the Minister of State Assembly of the United Nations asked the Inter- and this Bill to Seanad E´ ireann. national Law Commission to examine the possi- The Minister of State will be aware that my bility of an international criminal court. As an party has long been a supporter of the establish- example of how slowly such matters move, that ment of the International Criminal Court and has happened over 50 years ago. The Cold War espoused the need for such a body since the issue ensured there was no possibility of getting agree- was agreed in Rome. The establishment of the ment among nations. Nothing much happened International Criminal Court is the most after that until the 1980s. A small country pro- important development in international law since posed that efforts to establish an international the foundation of the United Nations. For that criminal court should be resumed. When people reason we fully support the Bill before the House argue that a small country such as Ireland has no this evening. It is a Bill that, after ratification, role on the international stage, I point to the ensures our domestic law is in compliance with example set by Trinidad and Tobago in the 1980s, the obligations we undertook when we signed the a little country of which most people here have Rome statute. The International Criminal Court probably never heard until this year’s World Cup. is an important tribunal that will exist so that we It got discussions going again. as a collective global people can try individuals In the meantime, there have been temporary responsible for the most serious international tribunals dealing with the former Yugoslavia and crimes — war crimes and crimes against Rwanda. The establishment of those temporary humanity, torture, enforced disappearances and tribunals gave a further impetus to the need for genocide. Through it we can send out a clear an international criminal court. Given revelations message that humanity will not countenance such in recent times around the world, one sees even activities, regardless of who is committing them. more justification for such a court. In Iraq, a good When we consider the enormous suffering that deal of attention is currently focusing on the has taken place among our continental neigh- recent incidents in Abu Ghraib, but let us not for- bours, through two world wars and the recent and get that over the previous 20 years a dreadful ever-present conflicts in places such as Bosnia, regime of torture was in place under Saddam Kosovo, Macedonia, Serbia and Chechnya, we Hussein and his lackeys. This did not just occur clearly see the depth of unnecessary suffering and in Abu Ghraib, but throughout Iraq. loss of life that has been imposed on our Euro- In recent times we had killing fields in Cam- pean brothers and sisters. bodia, Rwanda and even now the way in which Such conflicts are compounded by the actions the Palestinians are being treated in the Middle of a few tyrants at whatever level they operate, East is contrary to international law. That brings when they rape, ethnically cleanse, murder, kid- me on to the question of the effectiveness of this nap and torture. That is just in Europe. When one court. Ireland is, and should be, an enthusiastic looks at the wider world, there is a frightening supporter of the International Criminal Court. To array of zones wherein war crimes are the norm some degree it is relevant that the entire global and genocide is occurring as we speak. Those village accepts its jurisdiction. It is probably sig- regions include Rwanda, Darfur, East Timor, nificant that over 100 countries have ratified the Tibet, Palestine, Congo and others too numerous treaty at this stage. It is timely to recall those to mention. These are the reasons we need a countries which voted against the Rome statute. forum such as the International Criminal Court. Seven countries voted against the statute in July The court has been in gestation for almost a 1988, one of which was the United States, a point century. After the First World War, the Treaty of to which I will return. China, which is not exactly Versailles provided for the establishment of an a bastion of freedom and human rights, also international tribunal to try the German emperor. refused to ratify, as did Iraq. Kaiser Wilhelm never stood trial, but efforts after Israel voted against the statute for its own the Second World War were more successful reasons, which one can see when one examines when temporary tribunals were set up in Nurem- the state terrorism in which it is indulging at the burg and Tokyo to try the major war criminals. expense of the Palestinian people. Libya, under In addition, the Nuremburg charter specified the leadership of Mr. Gadaffi, is not a prime areas that are still considered to be key crimes example of democracy and human rights, under international law — crimes against peace, although it is fair to say that Mr. Gadaffi seems war crimes and crimes against humanity. In many to have had some change of heart in recent times, ways these initiatives were the forerunners of the which is to be encouraged. The other two coun- International Criminal Court. In particular, they tries which voted against it at the time were Qatar forever shattered the notion that state sover- and Yemen. eignty could be used as a defence for acts that The countries that do not want international were considered outrages on the consciences of inspection of their actions do not support the pro- mankind. ceedings of the International Criminal Court. The Thereafter, crimes of genocide and the Geneva United States, prime among such countries, Conventions were introduced. The General signed the Rome statute in the final days of Pres- 63 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 64

[Mr. Cummins.] support it, thereby ensuring we will comply fully ident Clinton’s time in office, but it has not yet with the court in every respect, including in our ratified it. The authorities in that country feel that domestic law. the US Senate would not ratify it. I have never I ask the Minister of State to consider certain been considered anti-American, but I question aspects of the Bill. Amnesty International pro- the approach of the American authorities in this duced a comprehensive document on the Bill, respect. Every possible pressure should be including many comments and recommendations. brought to bear on the US, as the only global I hope he will assure me in his closing speech that superpower, to encourage it to support the Inter- the issues raised by Amnesty International have national Criminal Court. been taken fully into account. I do not intend to The Americans stated that they are not against discuss the document in detail because the Mini- the idea of international accountability for war ster of State will have read it just as I have. crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity, Amnesty International has raised issues such as but that they do not agree with the form of the increasing to 18 the age at which children may International Criminal Court. That is probably an be conscripted or enlisted into armed forces. The easy way out for them. The US is happy for other existing articles provide that it is a war crime to nations to be bound by the court but it does not conscript or enlist children under the age of 15 want to be bound by the court itself, which is an into armed forces or groups, or to use children indefensible position. As a friend of the US, under that age to participate actively in hostilities. Ireland should continue to impose constructively It is not a theoretical problem because young chil- any pressure it can, bilaterally and through inter- dren are unfortunately being drawn into conflicts national institutions, to encourage the US to sup- in many parts of the world. They are generally port the court. The support of the US is vital if not involved in the regular armed forces of a we want the court to be widely accepted in the country, but many children are actively partici- short term. I do not doubt that it will be success- pating in hostilities with irregular groups, militias ful in the long term and that in years to come it and terrorist groups. There is a strong case for will suit the US to support the efforts of the court. raising the age of prohibition from 15, which was We have a duty to continue to press the issue with set to comply with the UN Convention on the the US authorities. Rights of the Child. I support an approach which One should not forget that the court’s oper- would seek a higher standard of protection for ations are under way. It is investigating a case in children. As 18 years is the age of maturity, there northern Uganda and it has received a second is no case for conscription under that age, nor is referral from the Democratic Republic of Congo. there a case for drafting children under the age It is important not only that the court should be of 18 into militias and groups. fully established, but that it should be fully An issue which one might not speak about with accepted and recognised as a body that can bring complete certainty is the voluntary enlisting of good to the world. The tribunals at Nuremburg children under that age into the regular forces of and Tokyo were established by the victors at the a country. This might not be as clear cut when time. They were established post facto after Naz- talking about apprentices into a regular army or ism and fascism had been defeated. The advan- something similar. The case made by Amnesty tage of the International Criminal Court is that it International on that issue is a good one. It also is in place now. Those who are tempted to deals with the issue of other crimes under inter- indulge in horrific practices are aware of its exist- national law that are not contained in its own stat- ence. They know they may be answerable to the ute. I would be in agreement with the thinking on body. It is not a question of getting the inter- that issue. national community to support the establishment The establishment of the International Crimi- of such a body subsequently. nal Court is the most important progress in inter- The International Criminal Court, which we national law in many years but I hope that, once have supported from the beginning, has started it is fully supported by the entire international its work. I have a mild criticism in that it is a little community, the ambit of the court will be late in the day to put in place measures that extended. I can envisage the International Crimi- should have been put in place some years ago. I nal Court having jurisdiction at some stage in accept that there was a need for a referendum, regard to drug trafficking and issues of that kind, which took place a few years ago to the best of which are of major importance today. I realise my recollection. I also accept that the Bill, which that may be well into the future but it is possibly is quite complex, contains a series of sections a development that will take place once the court aimed at ensuring that our domestic law complies is operational and fully supported by all members fully with our international obligations. I wish the of the international community. Bill had been in place when we were ratifying the Fine Gael is fully supportive of the Inter- relevant treaty, which would have been the cor- national Criminal Court. We want Ireland to rect procedure. It is good that the Bill is now comply not only with its obligations, but to take before the House and that we are in a position to the lead and give an example in ensuring the 65 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 66

International Criminal Court becomes a perma- of a permanent court with jurisdiction is welcome nent successful part of the international architec- in that regard. ture. We do not want it to be merely a symbol It is good that Ireland has played its part and but a working body that will help to bring to was one of the first 89 countries to sign up to justice those who are guilty of these outrageous this initiative. It is highly appropriate that Ireland crimes. If the court succeeds in the short term, we would have been in the vanguard because our will all be pleased and we can then hope to population suffered during the early part of the extend its ambit and jurisdiction to ensure it will last century at the hands of British occupying have an even greater role in international affairs forces, more particularly the Blacks and Tans in future years. who committed many atrocities. It is regrettable that Britain is still in denial about that, given the Mr. J. Walsh: I welcome the Minister of State criticism that was recently levelled from many in to the House and also this legislation. The estab- the establishment at Ken Loach on the showing lishment of an independent International Crimi- of his award winning film, “The Wind that Shakes nal Court at the Hague is to be welcomed. The the Barley”. The release of that film was an fact that it is being inaugurated with 18 sitting opportunity for them to address and put to bed judges, including an Irish judge, is very much a that issue. Obviously with the passing of time step in the right direction. nobody will suggest that issue will ever be exam- In 1948, the United Nations was mindful of the ined by a criminal court, but it would welcome if war crimes committed in the Second World War, such atrocities were recognised and an apology particularly following the Nuremburg and Tokyo given. The ideal opportunity for doing that was trials. It is welcome that an independent body will the release of that film. now pursue such cases because the argument that While the number of countries which have the victors adjudicated, so to speak, in trial over signed up to this initiative has increased to the vanquished was a faulty principle which was approximately 100, I agree with Senator Cum- subsequently open to propaganda. It is important, mins that it is regrettable that while the US and therefore, that this body is independent, acts Israel in particular have signed up to it, they have independently and that these new crimes of geno- not subscribed to the jurisdiction of the court. cide, crimes against humanity and war crimes Given some of the excesses that have occurred are recognised. in Iraq and the great suffering of the Palestinian It is regrettable that it took 50 years until the people over many decades, it is important that statute was adopted in July 1998 in Rome because the rule of law would be seen to operate on an in the interim many such crimes were committed even-handed basis across the world. across the globe. We are mindful of many of As Senator Cummins said, we are a country them, one of the most notable of which was in which has very close ties with the United States Uganda where Idi Amin, the dictator, partici- over many centuries and in our fight for freedom pated in substantial and brutal genocide and lived it was supportive. Given that the United States is out his life in freedom, despite the fact that he now the only superpower in the world, there is was exiled. That sends the wrong message. probably an additional obligation on it to be seen Tribunals have been set up to deal with the to operate within the Geneva Convention and the atrocities that took place in the Balkans, which codes of normality that would apply to civilisation were much more recent, but very few of the in a war situation. An opportunity has been mis- people involved in those atrocities have been sed in this regard. The fact that we enjoy freedom brought to justice. Nearer to home, we all remem- in Europe today is in no small measure due to the ber Bloody Sunday and the various bombing part played by the US in two world wars. I had atrocities that took place on that day. Those strong reservations about the US intervention in atrocities, including the Dublin and Monaghan Iraq but I did not have the same reservations bombings, would have been worthy of investi- about its intervention in Afghanistan. The latter gation by such an international criminal court to threat was a major one that needed to be tackled. bring the perpetrators of those crimes to justice. It would be a major step in the right direction if During war, occupying powers in particular America fully subscribed to the objectives and operate with certain impunity where they have the jurisdiction of this court. In that regard, per- gained the upper hand and there must be some haps it is a welcome indication that the UN way of arresting the worst excesses that occur in Security Council recently referred the case of such situations. The adage that “power corrupts, Darfur in Sudan to that court to be investigated, and absolute power corrupts absolutely” is true. in regard to which the US abstained, which means Therefore, I hope that this mechanism will act as it recognised the role and part that can be played a deterrent to people who may be inclined in that by the court. direction and that subsequent to a conflict, such As the Minister of State said, we had a consti- individuals can be held accountable in an inter- tutional amendment which enables us to pass this national court of law, brought to justice and legislation without fear of it conflicting with our penalised for such atrocities. The establishment Constitution. He outlined the various provisions 67 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 68

[Mr. J. Walsh.] many other speakers have referred. It is useful to of the Bill such as the arrest, surrender of individ- remind ourselves of the expression of principle uals, the freezing of assets and forfeiture of given when the Rome statute was adopted. It moneys or assets to the International Criminal reads: Court. I also note that within the Bill there is the question of removing any diplomatic impunity The States Parties to this Statute. . . people might have. That is necessary because we Affirming that the most serious crimes of cannot have a situation where people who com- concern to the international community as a mit such war crimes could subsequently claim whole must not go unpunished and that their some sort of diplomatic immunity. effective prosecution must be ensured by tak- We need to be reminded that the International ing measures at the national level and by Criminal Court is not a substitute for national law enhancing international cooperation, but it encourages the authorities within their own jurisdictions to address and prosecute these Determined to put an end to impunity for crimes when they are committed there. However, the perpetrators of these crimes and thus to where the political situation has broken down or contribute to the prevention of such crimes, where states are unwilling or unable to do so, Recalling that it is the duty of every State then the court comes into play. to exercise its criminal jurisdiction over those The provision to create a permanent, indepen- responsible for international crimes,... dent prosecutor who can investigate and pros- ecute greatly strengthens the operation of the Hear, hear say I. This is an attempt to introduce court system and the existence of a pre-trial ethics into the conduct of international relations, chamber ensures that the system will be including the horrible practice of warfare which implemented to the best international legal stan- has caused so much destruction and loss of life on dards. The court will therefore command the this small planet over the centuries. It is a move respect and support of people around the world, in the right direction that we are to get some kind which is essential. of international authority and in a direction on The provision that emphasises guaranteeing which a distinguished former Member of this the interests of the victims of such crimes is a wel- House, Mary Robinson, has spoken on many come innovation. Like other Senators, I have occasions when using the phrase “ethical global- often said that our legislation should lay greater isation”. I would like to think that is what we are emphasis on the plight of victims, making them doing here. more central to the operation of our criminal I have some reservations about the Bill, some justice system. We should consider including that of which have been mentioned. Senator Cummins principle in some of our domestic legislation. We referred to Amnesty International’s submission. I have debated this before and it has not been propose to outline some of its concerns. accepted but many of us feel it should be, and This court was founded in July 1998 at a United many victims of crime feel they are left to one Nations diplomatic conference and the treaty that side or abandoned. emerged became known as the Rome statute. The The introduction of this legislation sends a United States, under then President Bill Clinton, message to perpetrators of international crime that Ireland will not be found wanting in ensuring signed this but after his election in 2001, George that such people are brought to justice for atroci- W. Bush nullified that signature. This was a very ties they commit, wherever they are. I am glad regrettable act, although understandable in prag- we are playing our part within the court and will matic terms because it might expose some signifi- continue to ensure that its operations are effec- cant figures from the recent American past to tive in bringing such criminals to justice. I hope scrutiny which they probably would not welcome. that by imposing the severe penalties available to This exemption of itself and taking to itself of it, the court will deter armed forces around the exceptional status by the United States, has been world from rape, murder and genocide. That is highlighted by distinguished commentators such in the interests of all humanity and the proper as Paul W. Kahn who said: regulation of world affairs. The US claim for special status undermines the very idea of the rule of law as a single, prin- Mr. Norris: I wish to share time with Senator cipled normative order to which we are all Henry. bound. Even worse, it may undermine the great An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is that agreed? international effort of the last century to sub- Agreed. ject the use of force to the rule of law. For the United States to take this position is partic- Mr. Norris: I welcome this Bill and there seems ularly embarrassing, since it, more than any to be a general welcome for it. We have been other modern nation state, has held itself out waiting for legislation of this kind since the Nur- as committed to and constituted by the rule of emburg trials of the 1940s to which no doubt law. 69 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 70

It is regrettable that the American Government replaces the narrow term “concrete and direct has taken the position of trying to water down or military advantage” with the expansive term tear up the Geneva Conventions. It had a signifi- “concrete and direct overall military cant input into weakening even the Rome statute. advantage”. I speak not as one who is anti-American but as Amnesty International suggests the incorporation one who is deeply committed to the essential of Article 8(2)(b)(xx) into national law. It states: principles of liberty and respect for the rule of law which until recently characterised the [This article] includes the war crime of American political attitude. employing weapons, projectiles and material It is a pity that the Government did not take and methods of warfare which are of a nature on board the practice of some other countries to to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suf- have full consultation with various representative fering or which are inherently indiscriminate in groups, women’s organisations, people who rep- violation of the international law of armed con- resent the victims of torture who have come to flict. Such weapons, projectiles and material this country, lawyers’ organisations, professional and methods of warfare must be the subject of legal bodies, academics and groups such as a comprehensive prohibition and be included Amnesty International. in an annex to the Rome Statute by an amend- That is why it is important to cite some of their ment to it. There are a number of such pro- reservations, the questions they raise and some of hibited weapons ... their requests that this legislation, which is good, Section 6 of our Bill expressly excludes this. The be strengthened. For example, the Minister of Government’s reason for this is that we must wait State and the Minister for Justice, Equality and a period of seven years for the final ratification Law Reform, Deputy Michael McDowell, have and definition. However, other countries, notably spoken about complementarity and the definition Brazil, have got round this in their draft legis- of crimes to be covered by this Act. While one lation. Brazil provides that war crimes cover any welcomes the criminalisation of crimes such as weapons, projectiles, material and methods of genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes warfare that are the subject of a prohibition in and so on, some sections of the Rome statute are any treaty ratified by Brazil. We could have done inconsistent with the stronger provisions we have that and it would have strengthened the Bill. already enacted in Irish law. This is untidy, There are other aspects of war crimes less creates unnecessary confusion and should be serious than genocide or the other crimes listed, cleared up. for example, unjustified delays in repatriating or Some of the crimes under sanctions and the freeing prisoners of war or interned civilians once definitions of some listed under Article 8 are active hostilities have ceased. This has been much weaker than the prohibitions in other inter- described internationally as a grave breach, but national protocols and treaties which we have we have not criminalised it. One suspects this signed. By incorporating all crimes as defined in may be on account of American pressure. We the Rome statute in a lump, we have perhaps merely have to look at the situation in Guantan- weakened our situation in regard to other treaties amo Bay to realise how sensitive an instrument we have ratified. Amnesty International refers in this might be. Americans are still interested in particular to: this kind of legislation, even though they have . . . the Protocol Additional to the Geneva opted out of it. Conventions of 12 August 1949 and relating to Senator Cummins raised the matter of the pro- the Protection of Victims of International hibiting of conscripting or enlisting underage chil- Armed Conflicts (Protocol l) and Protocol dren. Amnesty International states that Articles Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 8(b)(xxvi) and 8(e)(vii) provide: August 1949 and relating to the Protection of It is a war crime to conscript or enlist chil- Victims of Non-International Armed Conflicts, dren under the age of fifteen years into armed (Protocol ll), as well as national laws imple- forces or groups or to use them to participate menting them including the Geneva Conven- actively in hostilities ... The Optional Protocol tions (Amendment) Act 1998. to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed con- In particular Article 57 (2) (a) (iii) of proto- flict which Ireland ratified on 18 November col l prohibits “an attack which may be 2002 establishes a higher standard of protection expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, for children. injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be The protocol provides for the age of 18. We excessive in relation to the concrete and direct signed that agreement so why do we not have the military advantage”. The definition of this imagination and wit with this Bill to go for what crime in Article 8 (2) (b) (iv) of the Rome Stat- we have already agreed in other elements of the ute is much weaker and because at the urging law? People under 18 need this kind of protec- of the United States of America (USA) it tion. Amnesty International clearly states that as 71 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 72

[Mr. Norris.] With regard to sending samples of hair, other a result of its research, it believes that voluntary than pubic hair, for identification purposes, cut or compulsory recruitment by governments or hair may be useful for matching hair, although if armed groups of people or children under the age the hair has been dyed it is more difficult. of 18 can jeopardise the mental and physical However, it is important to realise that plucked integrity of these people. hairs may be what is required, because material There are other crimes not contained in the from the hair follicle is necessary for DNA Rome statute, for example, torture, extrajudicial matching. executions, etc. As my time is short I will just list These are some areas on which I will propose some of the other areas of concern such as the amendments, but in general I welcome the Bill. question of jurisdiction over past crimes, the Although there has been some criticism of it, it notion of a statute of limitations and the question fits in with our legislation and I hope it will be of command and responsibility. enacted as soon as possible. With regard to the notion that civilians have less to fear from this Bill, I would call that the Mr. Kett: I welcome the Minister of State to “Rumsfeld exemption” because of people like the House. I also welcome the ratification of the him who sit at desks away from the armed con- International Criminal Court and its responsibil- flict and protect themselves. I am happy to hand ities as outlined by the Minister of State. The over to my colleague, Senator Henry. enactment of this legislation will ensure that Ireland can now comply with its obligations under Dr. Henry: I welcome the Minister of State to the Rome statue to which we have signed up. We the House and welcome this Bill which has had a will now be able to co-operate with the Inter- long gestation. It entered the Houses in 2003, so national Criminal Court in ensuring that those it is good to have at this Stage. I hope the Depart- responsible for atrocities will be held responsible. ment will now show a sense of urgency with This a landmark development and should prob- regard to the ratification of the UN convention ably have taken place many years ago. It has on biological weapons, something for which we become more possible as a result of the develop- have been waiting a long time. ment and enlargement of the European Union I am glad Senator Cummins mentioned the and through greater co-operation between the countries that did not initially sign the Rome stat- nations of the world. ute. I am glad also that everybody hopes that we At times we have all watched in horror as will use our influence on the United States of events unfold on our television screens. Senators America to return to the court. The US belonged Cummins and Jim Walsh mentioned some of briefly to it when President Clinton signed, but those events in Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Bosnia and unfortunately President Bush removed the coun- more recently in Iraq. We can only hope that lessons have been learned by the leaders who try from it. replaced the former leaders in these countries It has been suggested that the Bill should raise and that they will see that as a result of this type the age of enlisting to 18. This would be wise of legislation, they can no longer operate in the because of our legislation in other areas. manner of their predecessors. Legislation and I have concerns about other aspects of the Bill, statutes such as this will ensure that such actions particularly Part 5, and intend to put forward will not be accepted by civilised society. amendments to deal with those concerns. For The Irish people should be commended for example, section 50(1) proposes that a nail or any endorsing these proposals in 2001. The horrible material found under a person’s nail may be con- torture of prisoners in recent times, particularly sidered a bodily sample. I would be dismayed to associated with Iraq, has brought the issue of think we would remove anybody’s nail. It should impunity for war crimes into sharp focus. The dis- be a “nail clipping” which would be just as useful appointing element with regard to the legislation to whoever sought the bodily sample. It would be is that we cannot go after these criminals retro- wrong to remove a nail from someone. spectively. I wonder whether there is a way that The Bill also provides that a doctor will be we can work within the laws existing at the time someone whose name is on the general register to chase them down. The number of countries of medical practitioners. That is good, but will signing up to these proposals makes the will of people on temporary registers also be included? the majority of the international community It is important to clarify that point. clear. All nations must now ensure that there are The Bill also provides that identification evi- no exceptions or exemptions from this type of dence may include a fingerprint, palm print, prosecution. Regardless of position or rank, if photograph or bodily sample from a person or people fall foul of the system, it must meet them any related records. We should include photo- head on. It is imperative that no one should be graph of the iris in this section as these records deemed to be immune from the rigours of this are frequently used as a final method of identi- type of legislation. If the International Criminal fication. Court is to be taken seriously, to be effective and 73 International Criminal Court Bill 2003: 13 June 2006. Second Stage 74 to operate as a legitimate instrument for good, it ported war crimes prosecutions against the has to be seen to be applicable across the board. leaders of other countries — the prosecution of In the past, people in authority, including Heads Saddam Hussein is a prime example — it is now of State and government officials, have ordered seeking immunity for its own leaders. their minions, for the want of a better word, to The International Criminal Court is account- commit atrocities on their behalf. However, they able to an assembly of member states. The were happy to hide behind these “lesser mortals” assembly chooses its own prosecutors and judges. when the time came to pay the price for their Ireland is happy that one of its own judges, of actions. I hope the formation of the court will whom we are extremely proud, is now working ensure there is no hiding place for such with the court. It is not surprising that the court individuals. consists mainly of democratic states which are When one considers that a statute of this nat- deeply committed to the values under which the ure was first suggested in 1948, following the ter- court was founded. Similarly, it is not surprising rible atrocities of the Second World War, it is that the countries which have not signed up to hard to believe that Ireland and other countries the treaty under which the court was established have not implemented it before now. The desig- are, by and large, among the worst violators of nation of crimes of genocide, crimes against human rights in the world. It is a poor show that humanity and war crimes followed the terrible the Bush Administration has suggested that the events of the Holocaust. We did not have to wait US will withhold military aid from countries until the 1940s to bear witness to atrocities of that which have joined the court but have not signed nature. Such crimes were also committed during an agreement with the US stating that they will the First World War and during various instances not extradite US citizens to the jurisdiction of the of colonisation in the 19th century. We can find court. That very punitive policy is aimed at coun- examples of such activities closer to home, for tries which are trying to protect the human rights example during the plantation, when people were of their citizens. It shows the US in quite a poor removed from their homes to facilitate planters. light. I have heard it stated that the US will veto I do not doubt that atrocities about which we are any extension of that country’s peacekeeping mis- not fully aware were probably committed during sion to other areas unless the US armed forces that time. receive guarantees of immunity. It is somewhat disappointing that the United The introduction of this Bill is a good move on States of America has chosen not to sign up to the part of the Government. I wish the Minister this agreement, which is something to which other well with this legislation, which will be very Senators have alluded. The US is a superpower, effective. as we know, but it can sometimes be deemed to be a superbully. I speak as someone who supports Ms Tuffy: I welcome the International Criminal the US and feels that the world is a safer place Court Bill 2003. I find it hard to understand why for its efforts, despite some of its behaviour in it has taken so long to bring the Bill to the certain regions. I hate to think of the unsavoury Seanad. As Senators have said, the statute of the outcomes in some countries throughout the world International Criminal Court concluded in July if the US had not been of assistance. The US has 1998. We had a referendum in 2001 and the Con- the might and it has the mien, but it also carries stitution was amended in 2002. This Bill, which a major responsibility. That is something it has was published in 2003, was debated on Second not lived up to in recent times as it did in the past. Stage in the Da´il in May 2004 and on Committee There is an overriding need to ensure that the Stage in the Da´il more than a year after that. It International Criminal Court upholds the highest has taken more than two years for the Bill to standards of justice and fairness. If we address move from Second Stage in the Da´il to Second today’s atrocities, we will deter tomorrow’s kil- Stage in the Seanad. I find it hard to understand lers. The court faces a considerable challenge why such delays were necessary. I propose to from the United States, as I have said, because tease out some of the issues arising from this Bill that country has refused to ratify the treaty on Committee Stage, as appropriate. creating the court. I assume the US believes its I join other Senators in referring to the United domestic legislation is sufficient to deal with its States of America’s refusal to recognise the Inter- needs. It is refusing to subject its citizens to this national Criminal Court. Senator Kett mentioned international standard. Perhaps it sees it as a that the US has asked countries like East Timor European standard rather than as an inter- to declare their support for the US position if national standard. they wish to receive aid from that country. A The US also seems to have decided that the couple of speakers highlighted our support for court is an instrument of unchecked powers. My the US. We should make our support for the US reading of the matter is that such a claim is totally and our relationship with that country conditional untrue. The US frequently lambastes other coun- on its signing up to the International Criminal tries for human rights violations. It smacks of Court. Tomorrow evening, the House will debate double standards that while the US has often sup- the problems with Ireland’s policy on extraordi- 75 The 13 June 2006. Adjournment 76

[Ms Tuffy.] Criminal Court and the continuation of extraordi- nary rendition flights, which is an issue that was nary rendition flights through our airspace, it will highlighted in a recent report prepared by the not be a surprise if the US continues to rest on Council of Europe. It is very disingenuous of the its reputation of being a democracy and having Taoiseach to say things like “show me the evi- good relationships with European countries. dence”. It is quite obvious and logical that the That is all I would like to say on the Inter- Council of Europe means that Ireland is not national Criminal Court Bill 2003 at this stage. As doing its basic duty as a democratic country, I have said, I will tease out the various issues on which is to vindicate human rights — and the var- Committee Stage. ious conventions on human rights to which it has Debate adjourned. signed up — by putting in place certain practices and procedures relating to the use of its airspace An Leas-Chathaoirleach: When is it proposed by foreign aircraft, etc. Ireland is colluding with to sit again? the US by failing to put in place the procedures Mr. J. Walsh: At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow. which should be in place. If Ireland and other European countries do not stand up to the US The Seanad adjourned at 7 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on issues like the recognition of the International on Wednesday, 14 June 2006.