COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE Official Hansard

WEDNESDAY, 8 DECEMBER 1999

THIRTY-NINTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FOURTH PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA CONTENTS

WEDNESDAY, 8 DECEMBER

Sydney Harbour Federation Trust Bill 1999— First Reading ...... 11365 Second Reading ...... 11365 Business— Consideration of Legislation ...... 11366 Australia New Zealand Food Authority Amendment Bill 1999 [No. 2]— In Committee ...... 11366 Third Reading ...... 11370 Consideration of Legislation ...... 11370 Superannuation Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1999— Second Reading ...... 11370 Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 8) 1999— In Committee ...... 11380 Matters of Public Interest— Western Australian Liberal Party ...... 11402 Civil Aviation Safety Authority: Audit ...... 11406 Tibet: Imprisonment of Monks and Nuns ...... 11409 Rural and Regional Australia: Development ...... 11411 Aboriginals: Interpreter Service ...... 11414 Questions Without Notice— Goods and Services Tax: Charitable Organisations ...... 11417 Rural and Regional Australia: Initiatives ...... 11418 Goods and Services Tax: Animal Sponsorships ...... 11419 Crime Prevention: Achievements ...... 11420 Goods and Services Tax: Charitable Organisations ...... 11421 Rural and Regional Australia: Air Fares ...... 11423 Goods and Services Tax: Gift Vouchers ...... 11424 Goods and Services Tax: School Canteens ...... 11426 Goods and Services Tax: Charitable Organisations ...... 11427 Goods and Services Tax: Charitable Organisations ...... 11428 Rural and Regional Australia: Air Fares ...... 11434 Petitions— Nuclear Waste ...... 11435 Uranium: World Heritage Areas ...... 11435 Industrial Relations ...... 11435 Medicare: Naltrexone ...... 11435 Notices— Presentation ...... 11436 Committees— Selection of Bills Committee—Report ...... 11437 Notices— Postponement ...... 11438 Committees— Environment, Communications, Information Technology and the Arts References Committee—Referral ...... 11439 Genetically Modified Food: Labelling ...... 11439 Committees— Scrutiny of Bills Committee—Extension of Time ...... 11439 Senators’ Interests Committee—Resolution ...... 11439 Scrutiny of Bills Committee—Report ...... 11439 Community Affairs References Committee— Report ...... 11440 Additional Information ...... 11445 Public Accounts and Audit Committee—Report ...... 11446 Australian Federal Police Legislation Amendment Bill 1999— Report of Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee ...... 11446 Family Law Amendment Bill 1999— Report of the Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee ...... 11446 CONTENTS—continued

Ministerial Statements— Bushcare ...... 11447 World Trade Organisation Ministerial Conference, Seattle and Informal Trade Ministers Meeting, Lausanne ...... 11452 Committees— Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee— Report: Government Response ...... 11459 Reports: Government Responses ...... 11464 Reports: Government Responses ...... 11467 Senators’ Travelling Allowances ...... 11473 Parliamentarians’ Travel Costs ...... 11473 Delegation Reports— Australian Parliamentary Delegation to Estonia and Sweden ...... 11473 Australian Parliamentary Delegation to Italy ...... 11474 Inter-parliamentary Conference, Berlin ...... 11474 Committees— Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee—Report: Government Response ...... 11476 Membership ...... 11477 Budget 1999-2000— Additional Estimates ...... 11478 Additional Estimates ...... 11478 Additional Estimates ...... 11478 Documents— Tabling ...... 11478 Bills Returned from The House of Representatives ...... 11478 Bills Returned from The House of Representatives ...... 11478 Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 8) 1999— In Committee ...... 11478 Business— Routine of Business ...... 11496 Documents— Tabling ...... 11496 Superannuation Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1999— Second Reading ...... 11496 In Committee ...... 11497 Third Reading ...... 11501 Notices— Presentation ...... 11501 Adjournment— Information Technology: Politics ...... 11502 Salmon Industry: Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Committee Report ...... 11504 Psychotic Illness ...... 11506 Christianity ...... 11507 Documents— Tabling ...... 11509 Questions On Notice— Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade: Cost of Legal Advice from the Attorney-General’s Department—(Questions Nos 1717 and 1722) ...... 11510 Travel Allowances—(Question Nos 1601-1629) ...... 11510 Tasmania: Vocational Education and Training—(Question No. 1182) . 11511 Department of Communications, Information Technology and the Arts: Cost of News Clipping Service—(Question No. 1284) .....11514 Department of Industry, Science and Resources: Cost of News Clipping Service—(Question No. 1291) ...... 11514 Department of Communications, Information Technology and the Arts: Departmental Liaison Officers—(Question No. 1299) ...... 11515 CONTENTS—continued

Department of Family and Community Services: Departmental Liaison Officers—(Question No. 1301) ...... 11515 Department of Education, Training and Youth Affairs: Departmental Liaison Officers—(Question No. 1306) ...... 11516 Department of Family and Community Services: Departmental Liaison Officers—(Question No. 1323) ...... 11516 Department of Communications, Information Technology and the Arts: Departmental Liaison Officers—(Question No. 1326) ...... 11516 New Tax System Seminars: Advertising Costs—(Question No. 1434) . 11517 New Tax System Seminars: Cost—(Question No. 1435) ...... 11517 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission: Departmental Decisions Reviewed Under the Administrative Decisions Act—(Question No. 1453) ...... 11518 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission: Departmental Decisions Reviewed Under Common Law—(Question No. 1471) . . 11519 Department of Industry, Science and Resources: Freedom of Information—(Question No. 1484) ...... 11520 Department of Industry, Science and Resources: Internal Staff Development Courses—(Question No. 1502) ...... 11520 Department of Industry, Science and Resources: External Staff Development Courses—(Question No. 1520) ...... 11521 Department of Finance and Administration: Requests for Travel Allowance Receipts—(Question No. 1630) ...... 11521 National Greenhouse Strategy—(Question No. 1669) ...... 11522 Native Tree Revegetation—(Question No. 1673) ...... 11522 Exploration Licences—(Question No. 1674) ...... 11523 Western Sahara—(Question No. 1681) ...... 11524 Choepel, Mr Ngawang—(Question No. 1683) ...... 11524 Regional Australia Summit—(Question No. 1701) ...... 11525 Regional Australia Summit—(Question No. 1702) ...... 11526 Duke Energy: Environmental Assessment—(Question No. 1705) ....11534 Australian Flags: Members of Parliament Requests— (Question No. 1712) ...... 11535 Attorney-General’s Department: Cost of Legal Advice— (Question No. 1727) ...... 11539 Department of Industry, Science and Resources: Salaries— (Question No. 1744) ...... 11539 Attorney-General’s Department: Salaries—(Question No. 1745) .....11540 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission: Salaries— (Question No. 1749) ...... 11541 Prime Minister’s Sydney Office: Tenders for Radio Studio— (Question No. 1750) ...... 11541 East Timor: Allowances to Departmental Officers— (Question No. 1751) ...... 11542 East Timor: Military Personnel Allowances—(Question No. 1752) . . . 11542 SENATE 11365

Wednesday, 8 December 1999 For these reasons the Government is committed to preserving the Harbour and its foreshore for future generations. The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. Over the last century, the Commonwealth has been custodian of some of the foreshore areas of greatest Margaret Reid) took the chair at 9.30 a.m., natural and heritage significance. Those lands have and read prayers. been used by the Department of Defence for the activities of both the navy and army. SYDNEY HARBOUR FEDERATION TRUST BILL 1999 Defence is relocating, or in some cases has already relocated, from North Head, Middle Head, Georges First Reading Heights, Woolwich and Cockatoo Island as part of the Government’s program to improve the defence Motion (by Senator Tambling, at the of Australia. As Defence relocates these lands will request of Senator Ian Campbell) agreed to: be vested in the Trust. The bill will also allow That the following bill be introduced: a bill for other Commonwealth foreshore sites to be vested an act to establish the Sydney Harbour Federation in the Trust if desired. Trust, and for related purposes. The Trust will be required to manage the sites with Motion (by Senator Tambling) agreed to: the objectives of: . ensuring that management of Trust land contri- That this bill may proceed without formalities butes to preserving the amenity of the Sydney and be now read a first time. Harbour region; Bill read a first time. . conserving the environmental and heritage values Second Reading of Trust land, and establishing suitable land as a park; Senator TAMBLING (Northern Terri- . maximising public access to Trust land; and tory—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health and Aged Care) (9.31 a.m.)—I . cooperating with other Commonwealth, New table the explanatory memorandum and move: South Wales and local government bodies. That this bill be now read a second time. The Trust will be a transitional body, established for ten years, to ensure that the Commonwealth’s I seek leave to have the second reading duty to rehabilitate the former Defence sites is speech incorporated in Hansard. fulfilled, and that the sites are returned to the people of Australia in good order and with a Leave granted. sustainable financial base for their ongoing manage- The speech read as follows— ment. The Commonwealth Government, in its 1998 In establishing that financial base, the Trust will be election commitment, Protecting the Sydney able to recommend the commercial use of parts of Harbour Foreshore, stated that it was committed the sites and their transferral to freehold title. to preserving the Sydney Harbour foreshore for However, any such long-term proposals will need future generations. The Government announced to be considered as part of the management plan- that, as the Department of Defence relocates from ning process and the associated community consul- certain sites around Sydney Harbour, it would tation. They will also need to be in accord with the establish a Trust to assume management and objectives of the Trust which, as the government planning responsibilities for those sites. has made clear, are about rehabilitating, protecting and presenting these sites for the benefit of the This bill will fulfil the Government’s commitment whole community. by establishing the Sydney Harbour Federation Trust. I also take this opportunity to reaffirm the govern- ment’s stated policy of ultimately transferring North As the cradle of European settlement and the focus Head, Middle Head and Georges Heights to the of Australia’s most populous city, the Harbour is NSW government for inclusion in the Sydney the quintessential image of our nation abroad. It Harbour National Park. We will consider long-term will be the centre of international attention during arrangements for the Woolwich site and Cockatoo the 2000 Olympic Games. Island following the management planning process For the people of Sydney, the Harbour provides an and while we have no final view, it is our intention avenue for commerce and the transport of people. that the ultimate ownership of these sites will be The Harbour and its foreshores are a focus of city determined on the basis of the best outcome in living and of recreational pursuits. maintaining these sites as community assets. 11366 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

The Trust will consist of a Chair and five Mem- the first day of the 2000 autumn sittings, in bers, appointed by the Minister for the Environment accordance with standing order 111. and Heritage. The Government of New South Wales will be invited to nominate two Members for BUSINESS appointment to the Trust. A full-time Executive Director is to be appointed to the Trust, and other Consideration of Legislation staff and consultants may be hired. Motion (by Senator Tambling,atthe The bill provides for the Trust to develop manage- request of Senator Ian Campbell) agreed to: ment plans for the sites within 18 months of the land being vested in the Trust. Management plans That the provisions of paragraphs (5) to (7) of must be developed with full community participa- standing order 111 not apply to the following bills, tion, and are subject to my approval as Minister for allowing them to be considered during this period the Environment and Heritage. of sittings: The bill provides that the Trust will establish a Broadcasting Services Amendment Bill (No. 1) community advisory committee in respect of each 1999 management plan area, for the purpose of providing Broadcasting Services Amendment Bill (No. 3) advice to the Trust on issues relevant to the man- 1999 agement plan area. The Trust must consider the advice or recommendation of these committees. AUSTRALIA NEW ZEALAND FOOD Additionally, the Trust may establish a technical AUTHORITY AMENDMENT BILL advisory committee. 1999 [No. 2] The Trust is expected to work in close cooperation with the New South Wales government and local In Committee government authorities, and is fully empowered to Consideration resumed from 7 December. do so. Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- Due to the need to commence management plan- tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian ning as soon as possible, I issued a media release, on 13 March 1999, announcing that the Common- Democrats) (9.33 a.m.)—The Democrats wealth Government would establish an Interim oppose schedule 1 in the following terms: Trust to commence planning and public consulta- (4) Schedule 1, item 26, page 19 (line 20) to page tion. The Interim Trust was duly established and I 21 (line 33), TO BE OPPOSED. formally opened its office at Chowder Bay on 15 August 1999, and announced the appointment of an (5) Schedule 1, item 34, page 25 (line 14) to page Executive Director. The bill provides for actions 27 (line 26), TO BE OPPOSED. undertaken by the Commonwealth on behalf of the The Democrats cannot support the increase of Interim Trust in relation to a management plan to the ANZFA’s regulatory powers to determine be considered as having been performed by the food regulatory measures independently of the Trust. health ministers of the Australia New Zealand In recognition of the considerable community Food Standards Council. The bill as it stands interest in the future use of these foreshore sites, I enables the ANZFA to formally manage food released an exposure draft of the bill and explana- tory memorandum for public comment in August standards and codes of practice without the 1999 and I am appreciative of the large number of additional mechanism for review, public input individuals and organisations who took the oppor- and information about food regulations and tunity to make suggestions. The government decisions that the health ministers meeting continues to assess the matters raised during the currently provides. We believe that this is an public consultation period and while that occurs I inadequate situation for the purposes of public have decided to introduce the bill as originally drafted to allow Senate processes to commence. It consultation and public education, a theme will be our intention to introduce any amendments that has been a feature of the debate about to the bill arising from the public consultation this bill. period during the committee stages of debate. Furthermore, the term ‘less significant’ is This bill presents an historic opportunity to protect not defined under the bill. It is not clear how what are without doubt nationally significant sites extensive the new ANZFA’s powers will be and I commend the bill to the Senate. if this bill is enacted as it stands. Addition- Ordered that further consideration of the ally, the 28-day turnaround period in which second reading of this bill be adjourned till the health ministers can veto the ANZFA’s Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11367 decisions of less significance as proposed of less significant applications. We sought under the bill, we believe, is inadequate for successfully to make amendments in the consumer consultation and for lobbying. For House of Representatives to remove some of these reasons the Democrats cannot support the deficiencies of the government’s original the increased regulatory powers of the approach which were raised in the committee ANZFA. Therefore, we seek to omit such hearings and which we took quite seriously. changes under the bill. It is recognised that there are excessive delays Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (9.34 a.m.)— for some minor matters and that there should I support the amendments. be procedures that avoid every single matter banking up waiting for formal ministerial Senator TAMBLING (Northern Terri- council approval. We believe the opposition’s tory—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister amendments make it possible for concerned for Health and Aged Care) (9.35 a.m.)—I ap- community groups to object and prevent any preciate the issues being raised by Senator particular application from being fast-tracked Stott Despoja, but can I give her an assurance if it contains a contentious matter. We think that these mechanisms do not cut out the that provides the effective protection to ensure public consultation process. It is a matter that there is proper scrutiny of all matters if there the Australian New Zealand Food Standards is a group or interest that feels that the fast- Council, the 10 ministers, would have particu- tracking should not apply. We obviously will lar oversight of and would always be mindful monitor that in practice to make sure that that of in any of the issues that are being ad- intention is met and that it does work success- dressed. We do not support these amendments fully. We are, therefore, happy to support at as they remove an important streamlining this stage the current proposal and will be provision allowing matters of minor signifi- opposing the amendments. cance to be dealt with more efficiently than through the sometimes lengthy current ar- Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (9.37 a.m.)— rangement. For the provisions relating to these Could Senator Tambling give an example of kinds of matters to be used, three hurdles what is a minor change as against what is a have to be cleared. Firstly, the ministerial major change? council has to have previously approved a Senator TAMBLING (Northern Terri- general approach to be followed in the devel- tory—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister opment of the specific type of standard; for Health and Aged Care) (9.38 a.m.)—I am secondly, the draft standard must raise issues advised that an example might be a minor of minor significance or complexity only; and, extension to a food additive. Essentially, it thirdly, no substantive objections have been would be a matter for the ministerial council raised by stakeholders in their submissions. itself to determine those particular aspects that In addition to these three hurdles, the bill are minor and major. contains an important safeguard. Even if these Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (9.38 a.m.)— requirements are satisfied, it will take only But the government’s intention is that if a one minister on the ministerial council to new food additive is listed that would be seen object to the draft standard and the process as minor? will revert to the standard arrangement of Senator Tambling—No, an extension of it. having all ministers vote on the issue. This is an important efficiency measure that does not Senator BROWN—An extension to it. reduce the integrity of the standards develop- What does the minister mean by an extension ment process or, for that matter, the rights of to a food additive? the community in the public processes that Senator Tambling—I am advised that it are always transparent. would be where there is an extension of use Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Austral- in the application of the additive. ia) (9.36 p.m.)—The Labor opposition does Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- not support these amendments, which seek to tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian remove the provisions for the faster handling Democrats) (9.39 a.m.)—I would like to ask 11368 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 the minister similar questions. First of all, I Food Standards Council ministers’ confer- would like to know what Senator Tambling ences, which generally try to embrace their understands the term ‘less significant’ to mean agenda a couple of times a year within a half- in relation to areas where ANZFA will make day or a day session, will in effect become food regulatory measures without the approval major areas. There is a board. The board has of the health ministers under the Australian appropriate responsibility. In looking at the New Zealand Food Standards Council. What amendment, I can assure Senator Stott is his understanding of that term? Who is to Despoja that there is no way of avoiding determine what regulatory measures are of public accountability or transparency in the less significance? As I said in my speech at process, but we would not want to subject the the second reading stage, is it the media, is it changes to unnecessary delays as they go consumers, is it the industry, or is it ANZFA? through the processes. How does the government define ‘less Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- significant’, and at what stage along the tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian development of a public debate will the Democrats) (9.42 a.m.)—I thank Senator relevant persons, whoever they may be, gauge Tambling for his answer. He raises the issue what is of greater or of lesser significance? of public transparency and the issue of ac- Certainly I suggest that ANZFA was not too countability. I ask whether the rationale good at determining the significance of the behind a 28-day turnaround period is that a matters in relation to substantial equivalence precedent has been set. I do not know if that in the past. Can Senator Tambling explain his is the case for other bodies or what have you, understanding of ‘less significant’? but does the government really believe that Senator TAMBLING (Northern Terri- that is a satisfactory period of time in which tory—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister to allow members of the public, consumers as for Health and Aged Care) (9.40 a.m.)—This well as different representative and lobby is an important policy issue where the organisations, to come together to register ministerial council would determine the their understanding of or concerns with the guidelines under which it would operate. Let decision? Is a 28-day turnaround period really me give a couple of examples. Senator Stott sufficient? Does the government honestly Despoja would probably be familiar with the believe that? To me it seems a very short folate project which, of course, relates to period of time, and one that is inadequate. special foods and special food issues with Senator TAMBLING (Northern Terri- regard to pregnancy which militate against tory—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister spina bifida. In that particular situation there for Health and Aged Care) (9.43 a.m.)—I am is a listing of quite a number of products and advised, regarding the 28-day process to commodities. The matter would still be which Senator Stott Despoja refers, that there addressed very properly by the ANZFA board is a time constraint from when a decision in the process of determining that particular goes through the board and is then presented area. to ministers out of session, with ministers having 28 days in which to advise whether Similarly, Senator Stott Despoja would also they have an objection. As I commented probably recall that in the discussions that are earlier, if any one minister raises an issue it taking place at the moment with regard to then goes back to the full process. genetically modified food there was a list of The CHAIRMAN—The question is that policy criteria determined by the Australian schedule 1, item 26, page 19 (line 20) to page New Zealand Food Standards Council. Whilst 21 (line 33) and schedule 1, item 34, page 25 that is still an ongoing matter to be properly (line 14) to page 27 (line 26) stand as printed. determined—it will come back here for debate in the early part of next year—when we get Question resolved in the affirmative. to the detail of the particular issues, that will Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- be a matter of where the appropriate authority tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian lies as to what is less significant, otherwise Democrats) (9.45 a.m.)—I move: Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11369

(6) Schedule 1, item 35, page 27 (line 30) to page Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (9.47 a.m.)— 28 (line 2), omit subsection (1), substitute: This gives me the awesome responsibility of (1) If the Authority is required to give notice making a decision which is pivotal to how of a matter to a body or person under this this might go. I have listened to what the Part, the Authority: contributors have had to say. This is a matter (a) must give public notice of the matter; of giving the public, particularly represen- and tative groups, an opportunity to be aware of changes that are made and of consulting with (b) may also give notice of the matter to another body or person (if it considers the public a little more widely. As a Green, it appropriate to do so). I could not go against that. I will therefore support the amendment. This amendment was contingent upon amend- ments Nos 4 and 5. If they lost, this is per- Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- haps an alternative way of ensuring that tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian public notice is given. Again, this relates to Democrats) (9.48 a.m.)—I thank both Senator the theme of public education and transparen- Brown and the opposition for their support. I cy and accountability. We believe that public refute any suggestion from the government notice should be in an easy and accessible that this is an unnecessary amendment. It was form to a wide range of groups in the com- pretty much the same argument provided by munity. We do not believe that a simple the government for a number of the amend- listing, say, in the Gazette would adequately ments we have put forward, especially the improve the general public education of food first two, for which we did receive majority regulations and development. support in the Senate. I thank the Senate for that. This amendment is based on the fact that the last amendments were not successful. It is The theme of a lot of this discussion has part of our attempts to ensure that the com- been the issue of wider public participation in munity has adequate information about deci- the ANZFA. I hope that the government will sions being made. It is to ensure that there is take it on board. As I said yesterday, unless adequate information and education, obviously consumers and the public feel that they have so that the community and consumers can access to information and education about respond accordingly. food, including foods that may be genetically modified, et cetera, there will be scare cam- Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Austral- paigns and fear in the community. Perhaps we ia) (9.46 a.m.)—The Labor Party will be will have a community that does not make supporting this amendment. We think it best use of technological advancements that improves the bill. It improves the transparen- could have potential benefits. cy and accountability procedures used by the authority. It gives more flexibility in the use We believe that the bill grants the authority of things like the Internet in making available the ability to determine itself in a manner in the details of proposed decisions. We think it which the public is provided notice. Current- improves the bill. Therefore, we will be ly, if an application is accepted by the auth- supporting it. ority, it must publicly invite submissions. It is determined that this practice will continue Senator TAMBLING (Northern Terri- under the bill being considered. Again, this tory—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister amendment is just elaborating on some of the for Health and Aged Care) (9.46 a.m.)—The public processes available. government does not support the amendment. The timing and manner of any notifications On behalf of the Democrats, I argue that given by ANZFA are set out in many places public consultation and involvement is funda- in the act. This is another unnecessary amend- mental to maintaining ANZFA’s amended ment which, when read in conjunction with objective to ensure a high degree of consumer other sections of the act, adds very little to confidence in the quality and safety of food the act. We do not support this amendment. produced, processed, sold or exported from 11370 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Australia and New Zealand. That is why we provided no substantive evidence of a system- have done our best during this committee ic abuse of the current investment rules by stage to enhance the bill to at least achieve what are known as do-it-yourself superannua- some of those objectives as outlined in the tion funds that would require the proposed legislation. Again, I thank the other senators changes as they are drafted. Secondly, the for their support. I urge the government to changes contained in the Superannuation perhaps reconsider. Legislation Amendment (No. 3) Bill, which Amendment agreed to. passed the parliament with the support of the Labor opposition, should begin to address Bill, as amended, agreed to. many of the problems where they may exist. Bill reported with amendments; report Thirdly, there are other ways of tightening the adopted. existing laws that will better address the perceived problems where they may exist. Third Reading Fourthly, this legislation, if passed, will make Bill (on motion by Senator Tambling) read it tougher for small business. It will increase a third time. restrictions, red tape and costs. Fifthly, it does have some adverse implications for people CONSIDERATION OF LEGISLATION living in rural and regional Australia. Motion (by Senator Tambling)—by leave—agreed to: The government has argued that some self- That government business order of the day No. managed superannuation funds, SMFs, are not 40 (Australia New Zealand Food Authority Amend- complying with the spirit of the current laws, ment Bill 1999) be discharged from the Notice which are designed to prohibit superannuation Paper. funds from borrowing. The government SUPERANNUATION LEGISLATION claims that, where this practice is occurring, it increases the risks associated with superan- AMENDMENT BILL (No. 4) 1999 nuation fund investments and is contrary to a Second Reading retirement income policy designed to ensure Debate resumed from 28 September, on that superannuation savings are preserved motion by Senator Herron: until retirement and not accessed for current use. That this bill be now read a second time. Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (9.51 Labor in determining its position on this a.m.)—We are dealing with Superannuation bill, and on just about every bill that comes Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1999. before the Senate that amends legislation The stated policy objective of this bill is to established by a Labor government, asks ensure that superannuation savings are invest- itself: how will this improve the operation of ed prudently, consistent with the requirements the superannuation law for the benefit of all of the Superannuation Industry Supervision Australians? A threshold issue for Labor is Act 1993 for the purpose of providing retire- whether, as the government claims, the prac- ment income and not for providing current tice of superannuation funds borrowing and day benefits. This is a policy objective that using retirement income for current day use Labor established when in government. It is is so widespread and constitutes such a an objective that we still support. However, systemic threat to retirement incomes policy it is precisely because we support this objec- and to the retirement incomes of fund mem- tive that we cannot support this bill, which by bers that it needs to be significantly changed. the admission of the Assistant Treasurer, In addition, Labor has been required to make Senator Kemp, extends the opportunity for a judgment on whether the government’s superannuation funds to be invested for legislation actually achieves what it claims it current day benefits. is designed to achieve. To Labor, the obvious Labor will be opposing this bill based on answer to all of these questions is no, the five key criteria. Firstly, the government has government fails the tests. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11371

To ensure that our legislation was based on The majority of the evidence provided to the widest possible evidence, Labor referred the committee roundly criticised the data this legislation to the Senate Select Commit- provided by the government in support of the tee on Superannuation and Financial Services. bill, in particular the fieldwork conducted by The decision to refer the bill to a specialist the ISC on which the bill seems primarily committee for examination was also taken to based. Much of the evidence to the committee allow the government the opportunity to argued that the ISC’s fieldwork, while identi- present its case in support of the bill. The fying problems with the investment practices usual materials supporting the bill—the of some of the 100 chosen funds, did not explanatory memorandum, budget announce- consist of a representative sample of excluded ment and various press releases—did not funds. In addition, evidence from the Austral- present an appropriate supporting case. Disap- ian Society of Certified Practising Account- pointingly, the government did not provide ants pointed out that the research was now adequate evidence in support of its bill. three years old and was undertaken by a According to the evidence presented to the different regulator to the Australian Taxation committee, the opposition is not convinced Office, which now regulates SMFs as a that there is a widespread practice of inappro- consequence of the recent legislation in the priate use of superannuation funds. The No. 3 bill that I referred to earlier. committee did not receive convincing evi- The Assistant Treasurer provided a response dence that the retirement income of fund to questions taken on notice during the com- members is at high risk. However, where the mittee hearings which included some addi- government can show that unusual investment tional information about a small sample of practices which place retirement incomes at 145 funds conducted in 1998-99 based on unacceptable risk are occurring, Labor will funds’ historical activities. The sample found support appropriate measures to crack down that around seven per cent invested in geared on this type of behaviour. trusts compared to a total of around 30 per Firstly, is there a need for change? The cent that invested in related trusts. Where Insurance and Superannuation Commission, breaches of the existing law were identified, or ISC, as it was known, carried out a survey APRA put in place enforcement or rectifica- in support of its claims for the need for this tion action. It would have been more useful legislation. The government drew upon a for the committee to have had access to this random survey of 1,000 excluded funds information at an earlier stage and in a fully conducted by the ISC in 1997. The survey disclosed format. The opposition referred this found that around 20 per cent of excluded bill to the committee on the premise that it funds were investing in unit trusts that were was incumbent on the government to provide effectively controlled by the fund members or more substantial evidence of the need for the the employer. It appears that one-half of these measures contained in the bill. unit trusts were undertaking geared invest- The additional survey conducted by APRA ments. Around 13 per cent of superannuation does not provide any substantive support for funds were leasing or renting assets to associ- the legislation. Even assuming that the survey ated parties such as members or employers. was both representative and robust, the infor- The ISC conducted follow-up fieldwork of mation provided by the Assistant Treasurer 100 selected funds which provided an exam- actually supports the retention of the existing ple of superannuation funds investing in unit legislation. If breaches of the current laws trusts which, in turn, invested with the em- were identified and APRA were able to take ployer sponsor, made loans to members and corrective action, that would support the view employer sponsors, and leased assets to expressed by many at the hearings that there employer sponsors. The government claims, is little need for changes as contained in this based on the evidence of the ISC survey and SLAB 4 legislation. I emphasise that point. fieldwork, that these practices affect the Where some abuse has been taking place, the integrity of the SIS investment rules. regulator, APRA, has been able to enforce the 11372 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 law as it now stands. The Australian Taxation answer to a question on notice from the Office, which now regulates this area, will, I shadow Assistant Treasurer, Kelvin Thomson, suspect from evidence we have received, be the government was unable to provide evi- a more efficient regulator in this regard. dence of the extent of tax concessions used The committee received little, if any, by SMFs. convincing evidence of SMFs failing. The In addition, the government has contra- Small Independent Superannuation Funds dicted its own claims that superannuation Association argued that, where SMFs had funds should not be invested in assets with invested in a small business, the success or the intent of using them for current day failure of the business itself did not necessari- purposes. In a speech in Brisbane on 28 May ly equate to the success or failure of the SMF. 1999, the Assistant Treasurer, Senator Kemp, This is because not all SMFs invest in small said in commenting on the SLAB 4 changes: business or property. In addition, the govern- Funds with fewer than five members will be able ment did not provide any conclusive evidence to invest up to 100 per cent of their assets in of SMF fund members losing their retirement business premises leased to members or the employer-sponsor of the fund. This will enhance incomes as a result of poor investment prac- the ability of small business owners to use their tices and becoming fully or partly dependent superannuation savings to invest in their own on the government. business premises. I will make some comments about self- If the government has admitted that it is managed superannuation fund investment extending the opportunities for small business returns. One would expect that, if self- owners to invest their superannuation savings managed superannuation funds are conducting in their business premises, surely that is in some sort of risky investment practices, this conflict with the claim that superannuation would be reflected in the investment returns funds should not be used for current day of these funds. However, evidence provided benefits. by the Australian Society of Certified Practis- In addition, deliberately permitting—in fact, ing Accountants citing an article from the encouraging—a superannuation fund to invest Personal Investment magazine stated that, all its assets in one asset, as opposed to one according to research conducted by Rain- asset class, is hardly consistent with what is maker Information Services and Rice-Kachor generally considered to be an appropriately Research, SMFs actually earned better than diversified investment strategy that balances average investment returns in the three years risk and return. While there are a few invest- up to 1997. The government was unable to ment restrictions on trustees of super funds, refute this evidence, which does not support they are required to ensure that the funds’ the need for this bill to be passed. investments as a whole are diversified and do There is now a significant doubt about the not expose the fund to risks from inadequate tax concessionality of superannuation. Cur- diversification. A strong case could be argued rently, higher income earners pay tax on that the extension of the business real proper- superannuation at 45 per cent. With the new ty rule to 100 per cent does not allow for income tax rates to apply from 1 July next appropriate diversification. year, most middle income earners will be on As was the case with fund returns, one the 30 per cent tax rate, which is the same would expect that, where the government has rate for superannuation. Lower income earners identified an alleged abuse of the investment pay tax on superannuation at a rate higher rules, this legislation would result in revenue than their marginal tax rate. Thus, it can be savings. However, in both the explanatory argued that superannuation for a significant memorandum of the bill and evidence before number of people is no longer taxed the committee, the government was unable to concessionally. But it can be argued that, if it provide any substantial evidence of a risk to is, it should not be used for current day revenue that the existing investment rules purposes or investment practices which place pose. Neither was a strong case mounted that the generous tax concessions at undue risk. In additional revenue will flow or that the Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11373 existing revenue base will be preserved as a The association also argued that the changes result of the passage of the bill. In response implemented as a result of the recent passage to a question on the revenue impact of the of the SLAB No. 3, which require all SMF bill, Mr Painton from the Treasury said: fund managers to be trustees of the fund and As presented in the 1998-99 budget, it was in terms transfer regulation of SMFs to the Australian of not having a revenue effect within the forward Taxation Office, go a long way to ensuring estimates years. But the understanding is that, over that advertent or inadvertent breaches of the time, these measures will improve the integrity and existing investment rules were remedied. We investment rules, and that is expected to have a had similar evidence from Mr Murray Wyatt positive effect on the budget. But there is no from the CPAs. identified budget effect within the forward esti- mates... I would now like to turn to the issue of a It is the prerogative of governments to ask the unit trust look-through requirement. Evidence parliament to pass legislation which relies on to the committee raised the issue of whether an understanding rather than on cold hard there should be a look-through requirement facts. But it is the responsibility of opposition for auditors to require them to look through parties to scrutinise the evidence presented by the fund and into any unit trusts that the fund a government and, where it does not measure operates to ensure that the unit trusts are also up, to reject the legislation it purports to complying with the spirit of the legislation support. and not conducting risky or non-commercial practices. This would seem to be a sensible We have an existing investment rules suggestion and is something that Labor would regime and it should be possible for the encourage the government to consider as an government to substantiate its claims with alternative to what is being proposed here. In existing experience or robust statistical model- support of the argument that the transfer of ling and analysis. The government does have the regulation of SMFs to the tax office will available to it the resources of the highly result in better compliance than occurred respected Retirement Incomes Modelling Unit previously is the additional $6 million in in Treasury which is able, given the availab- resources the ATO will be putting into its role ility of appropriate data, to model the longer as SMF regulator. term effects of government retirement in- comes policies. It would have greatly support- A range of other issues which this bill ed the government’s case if it had provided raised have convinced the opposition that it some analysis of the government’s proposed would not be good public policy to support changes through the RIM Unit. The facts are this bill. Many of the witnesses appearing that there is little substantial evidence sup- before the Senate committee examining the porting the government’s bill: SMFs are not bill claimed that the proposed bill will in- in crisis, retirement incomes are not being crease the complexity of operating an SMF. jeopardised and there is little evidence to This is disturbing, as the parliament should be support that the alleged high risk investment acting to simplify the operation of superan- practices the government claims are occurring nuation, not make it more complex, particu- are causing a systemic breakdown in the larly for small business. Increased cost is retirement incomes system. usually commensurate with increased com- Is the existing law adequate? The Australian plexity. The evidence before the committee Society of Certified Practising Accountants suggests that the passage of the bill will claimed that the provisions of the existing increase costs by at least $2,000, depending laws regulating investment practices are on the complexity of the fund. In some cases adequate and that existing abuses, where they the fund might just be wound up and the occurred, are minimal. They also argue that money put into a master trust. the government’s proposed changes were like I mentioned the impact on rural and region- using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut and al Australia as an important principle. Most were not the most effective way of meeting disturbingly, Labor is concerned about the the government’s stated policy objective. negative impact this bill is likely to have in 11374 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 these areas, particularly by restricting small cated, difficult changes to superannuation business investment. Mr David Coogan, which make it tougher for small business, add chairman of the superannuation task force for to cost and add to problems in regional and the Institute of Chartered Accountants, said in rural Australia. evidence to the committee that there will be Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (10.12 areas of the market, for example the rural a.m.)—Before commencing my speech on the sector, where it could have a negative impact. second reading, I wish to declare for the The Small Independent Superannuation Funds record that my partner has a self-managed Association also supported this view. It must superannuation fund which has some invest- come as a great shock to National Party ments in a unit trust and in which I also have senators in this chamber, given the enormous an interest. As far as I know, this bill would problems National Party members have been restrict the activities of that fund. having recently, particularly in Victoria, that yet again a piece of legislation has come This bill, the Superannuation Legislation before this chamber supported by this coali- Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1999, deals with an tion, dominated by the Liberal Party, which extremely complex area of superannuation law will negatively impact on regional and rural governing the investment rules for small Australia. But where is the National Party? superannuation funds. As our report on this bill suggests, it has not been an easy bill for There has been a significant time delay with us to develop a position on. However, invest- this legislation, some 18 months between the ment rules are designed to limit the risks to initial 1998 budget announcement and intro- superannuation savings and to ensure that duction of the bill, which means that some superannuation is preserved for retirement superannuation funds which acted in accord- incomes. This is done by restricting invest- ance with the announcement may be in breach ment in the employer or associates, prohibit- of provisions of the bill. The Senate has a ing super funds from borrowing funds or non-binding procedural order that recom- lending them to members, preventing member mends that the Senate not pass any tax legis- assets from being acquired by the fund and lation that comes before it more than six requiring all transactions to be at arm’s months from the time it was announced. length. The ISC became concerned that a There seems little doubt that if this bill is number of funds, particularly smaller funds, passed by the Senate it should operate pros- were getting around those tough investment pectively rather than retrospectively. rules by investing heavily in unit trusts which On the issue of the choice of funds, the were then not bound by the rules, and pro- government has asked the Senate to support ceeded in some cases to flout them. This its choice of funds legislation, which surpris- opened up the prospect of a very large pro- ingly, given the government’s apparent sup- portion of tax preferred superannuation assets port for it, has yet to be debated in the Senate being invested back into a person’s business and has been pulled from the list of bills to be or heavily geared, thereby reducing their debated this year. The government’s approach contribution to retirement savings. in respect of this legislation for small business A 1997 survey of excluded funds covering is inconsistent with its so-called choice of 1,000 of the 140,000 funds revealed that 20 funds philosophy. per cent of funds invested in unit trusts, that Labor will not be supporting this bill in its 13 per cent of funds were leasing or renting current form. Where there is evidence that the assets to associated parties and that, in all, existing law is being abused, Labor will around 10 per cent of funds used unit trust or support reasonable changes that crack down lease arrangements that circumvented invest- on that abuse. It is clear that more evidence ment standards. This legislation has sought to is required to accurately ascertain the extent overcome these difficulties by preventing of the problems that the government claims superannuation funds from investing in are occurring and which this bill claims to closely held unit trusts. The prohibitions on address. Labor will not be a party to compli- super funds borrowing or dealing with associ- Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11375 ates would also continue. Against that, the I understand that in the committee stage the legislation provided a new concession for government will be moving an amendment to superannuation investment, allowing small ensure that small superannuation funds can funds to invest a greater amount of their continue to invest in closely held trusts where assets into real business property. Currently the sole asset of those closely held trusts is only 40 per cent of assets can be invested in real business property, provided the trusts do real business property. Under the new bill, not borrow more than the currently allowed this rises to 100 per cent. five per cent. That extends the same invest- ment rules for a superannuation fund to a Given the continuing prohibition on super closely held trust but allows that extra bit of funds’ gearing, this will increase the flexibili- flexibility by allowing a super fund to spread ty of super funds to invest in big, lumpy but the cost and the risk of a real property invest- attractive real property investments. That ment. I do not think that there is any need to concession will be particularly important in allow closely held trusts to also invest in regional Australia. Small superannuation shares. Shares are much smaller unit invest- funds, the Senate committee was told, are an ments than real property parcels and can and important source of finance for investment in should be dealt with directly by the small regional areas. People want to invest in their superannuation fund. local areas and this concession will allow for increased direct investment by small super Another issue raised by submissions to the funds in real property in their local regions. Senate committee is the supposed retrospec- tivity of the legislation. The government’s However, it remains a tall ask for a small intention to introduce this legislation was first superannuation fund to undertake an invest- announced in the 12 May budget in 1998. An ment in real business property off its own bat. exposure draft was released more than six For a fund with, say, $200,000 to $300,000 of months later with a number of significant funds, an investment in a single real property concessions agreed to by the government could make up 60 per cent to 70 per cent of during the consultation phase. The bill was the fund’s total assets, and that is a real risk finally tabled in the parliament on 11 August to the investment diversity of the fund and its of this year, some 15 months after the budget associated risk profile. Of course, this was announcement. part of the attraction of investing in a unit There are two sets of transitional arrange- trust: it allowed a super fund to spread its ments with this bill for assets purchased prior investment in real property across other unit to May 1998. The transitional rules allow, holders. This bill precludes that by precluding effectively until 2009, for such funds to investment in a closely held unit trust; that is, rearrange their affairs to comply with the new a trust with less than 20 members. rules. For assets purchased after May 1998 The Democrats have come to the conclusion and prior to royal assent of this bill, the funds that there are very sound reasons for super will have only until July 2001 to comply with funds investing in a closely held unit trust, the bill. We think this is a rather tough ask particularly where such a trust is investing particularly given that there was a 15-month solely for real business property. There are period before the actual law was tabled. I sound reasons for allowing the large and think it is almost impossible to ask trustees to lumpy cost and risk of property investments comply with rather vague budget press releas- to be shared by a superannuation fund with es and then wait 15 months for legislation, other investors, even associates, through a particularly when the legislation ends up unit trust. However, I think that the prohibi- being rather different from the Senate an- tion on borrowing which applies to a superan- nouncement. nuation fund should also apply to a closely While we appreciate that this bill is de- held trust on the basis that it could affect the signed to deal with potential tax planning liquidity and the risk profile of the underlying through unit trust structures, it also has the closely associated super fund. effect of severely affecting what may be quite 11376 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 legitimate investment decisions by super Senator WATSON (Tasmania) (10.22 funds as well. Indeed, as evidence to the a.m.)—I rise on behalf of the government to committee from Cleary Hoare Solicitors, support the Superannuation Legislation quoted in the Senate report, points out: Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1999 put forward by the government. One of the strengths of the If a taxpayer, even with the best advice, has acted contrary to the provisions of the Bill since May superannuation arrangements in Australia, 1998 in a way as to make complying superannua- particularly the superannuation guarantee tion funds non-complying the taxpayer on the system, is the flexibility in terms of invest- current laws, will have 47% of the assets in the ment restrictions. We are different to most superannuation fund confiscated. other countries in that superannuation funds Given these sorts of concerns, the Democrats are free from some of the very onerous do not believe that we can retain the 12 May investment regulations. While this bill will 1998 operative date for this bill. I understand certainly restrict certain investments which that the government has agreed that in the may expose funds to greater risk, it will allow committee stage it will move to make this bill superannuation funds considerable scope for operative from 11 August 1999. diversified investment. The penultimate issue I want to deal with It is important to look at the matters that is that of the actual definition of business real have moved since the budget announcement property. A number of submissions to the some time ago. For example, there have been committee suggested that the definition of very generous grandfathering provisions, business real property might need to be especially for those funds that had particular extended. It was suggested that leases, vacant arrangements in place on budget night. Essen- land and other types of property might be tially, all those funds would have been pro- included in the definition. A government tected. Also, there is the incentive to increase amendment will make business real property the business rule property exemption from 40 the only allowable investment for a closely to 100 per cent. A number of submissions held unit trust, and I think this definition acknowledged the very extensive consultation becomes very important. The Democrats will that has taken place. It has taken a long time be seeking an assurance from the minister that and there has been a great deal of consulta- the Treasury will be prepared to consult tion. Naturally, not everybody was happy industry groups over enacting a regulation about particular outcomes. that might ensure that the definition of busi- ness real property is as wide as is practically I am particularly pleased about an amend- possible within the risk and investment ment that the government agreed to following constraints intended by the law. the hearing in Melbourne on 18 November. I refer to the government’s agreement to the The Senate will be aware that for some time use of an interposed unit trust, but only in the Democrats have advocated and moved to circumstances where that unit trust is not see that all superannuation legislation deals allowed to borrow. Perhaps one of the most with the inequitable situation that applies to contentious issues arising from the deliber- same sex couples. We are advised that in the ations of the hearing that I chaired in Mel- case of this bill it is technically difficult to bourne was the view that widely held trusts amend the legislation. However, my colleague are in a position to leverage and to borrow Senator Bartlett will be moving a second much more extensively than is possible under reading amendment requiring the government the arrangements for the smaller funds. That to prepare a report for the Senate on the seemed to be a grievance. I must say that that technical and legislative requirements for sort of issue raises a number of problems for removing the discrimination faced by same me in superannuation. Leverage is always a sex couples in superannuation and tax laws. difficult area because any leverage at all With that comment I will conclude and exposes funds to a greater risk. Obviously, the indicate that the Democrats will be supporting responsibility of any superannuation trustee is the bill at the second reading. to get the highest return, commensurate with Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11377 the minimum amount of risk. Of course, any There is also the question of investing in situation which allows leverage is a situation certain types of derivatives. Derivatives are an where members’ investments are open to issue that I think will challenge the superan- greater risk. Perhaps this was the issue that nuation industry in the future because, used really dominated the whole of the hearings. inappropriately, they can be used as a mecha- nism of leverage—and no, I am not satisfied We have to go back a little in history, that we have got these rules completely right because when the SIS arrangements were first in Australia at the present time. It could well put in place—they were put in place by a be an issue for further evaluation not only by Labor government with close supervision by our committee, if time permits, but also by the superannuation committee, which Senator the industry generally. That is because, after Sherry and I chaired over that period—there all, we have to safeguard the protection of was a very strong feeling that there was to be these moneys, particularly as more and more no borrowing whatsoever. Subsequently, a of people’s money is being put into the piece of paper was issued by the ISC that private sector, and there will always be people allowed an extraordinary situation where you within the private sector who put private could not borrow directly, but if you inter- profit, personal greed, ahead of members’ posed a unit trust, that unit trust was able to interests. You can always get situations where leverage or borrow. As such, it meant that you have a very aggressive chairman taking super funds were in a position to acquire a a fund in directions which may not necessari- wider range of assets. But the whole process ly be in the best interests of the wider effectively lifted the risk profile of many membership, despite all the sorts of powers small funds. It is always difficult for regula- that we seem to be giving to the individual tors to look closely at investment strategies, members. My time is brief; I know the so broad guidelines have to be laid down. The minister is anxious to get on with this bill, so government in its wisdom has seen fit to do I will conclude my remarks in support of the so, but in some cases where you have an bill. interposed trust there is exploitation of the situation. That is not in every case—in fact, Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (10.29 I would say the majority of super funds that a.m.)—I rise to speak to the Superannuation use this interposed trust as a mechanism for Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1999 on leverage do so very responsibly. But, of behalf of the Democrats in conjunction with course, we have to be careful as legislators to my colleague Senator Allison. As Senator make sure that we do not allow those who are Allison indicated at the end of her second unscrupulous to move in. reading contribution, one issue of ongoing, frequent and regular concern to the Democrats One of the big challenges in the superan- has been the inequities suffered by same sex nuation industry at the present time is that couples under superannuation legislation—and this pot of gold in superannuation continues a range of other legislation—at Common- to grow at a tremendous rate. Despite the wealth level. I have spoken on this a number government announcement, it is significant to of times, as have many of my colleagues. The point out that do-it-yourself funds, small super Democrats have an overarching piece of funds, et cetera are still increasing in number, legislation in the Senate aimed at removing size and importance. I remind you that it was all forms of discrimination and ensuring always the original intention of the SIS, recognition and equal treatment of same sex supported by both levels of government, that couples across all Commonwealth legislation. there should not be borrowing. This raises the wider question that a number of funds alluded Unfortunately, parliament being what it is, to: why do you put so-called tighter restric- getting private senators’ bills passed through tions on the smaller funds rather than on the the parliament is a fairly difficult process, as larger funds, where they can invest in com- the close to 100-year history of this parlia- panies that have a certain amount of gearing ment would attest. I am not totally sure but, or have these sorts of trusts? off the top of my head, I think about six or 11378 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 eight private senators’ bills have been passed ment to provide details of all the legislative in the whole history of the parliament, so it changes that would be required to ensure the is not an easy road for ensuring legislative recognition and equal treatment of same sex reform. I hasten to add that that should not be couples under all Commonwealth superannua- taken to suggest in any way that the Demo- tion and taxation legislation. crats are not continuing to pursue every avenue to obtain the passage of that legisla- There was a suggestion that this issue could tion. have been referred to a Senate committee for examination. On one level, this sounds like a Nonetheless, the Democrats are also about reasonable idea except that we have already trying to ensure outcomes. It is important to had a number of reports on these issues over raise the issue, but the people that are suffer- the years, not least a very comprehensive ing unfair discrimination around the country Senate committee report into the Democrats’ are looking for that discrimination to be sexuality discrimination legislation that I addressed and are looking for concrete out- spoke of previously. There was also the report comes in that regard. Many times in the past, of the Senate Select Committee on Superan- the Democrats have moved specific amend- nuation, chaired by the previous speaker, ments at the committee stage of legislation Senator Watson from the coalition. Their trying to address discrimination against same report of November 1995 on superannuation sex couples, and we could have approached and broken work patterns contained a recom- this piece of legislation in the same way. If it mendation that superannuation regulations be had been accepted, it would have at least amended so that those in bona fide domestic opened the door and removed one area of relationships and single people be treated in discrimination, but discrimination in a lot of the same manner as married and de facto other areas of superannuation legislation superannuants. That recommendation was would have been maintained as it exists. It aimed at ensuring that all people in bona fide would also have put that issue in the middle domestic relationships, whether same sex or of a potential bouncing backwards and for- opposite sex partners, would have equal wards between the two houses of parliament treatment. That was a unanimous recommen- of the overall bill that we have put it onto. dation of the committee from four years ago, I will actually be doing the government a and it has not been acted on. I think people favour this morning, although I am not sure are getting tired of waiting. that they will see it that way. Instead of having it embodied in a piece of legislation There was also a Human Rights and Equal which the government would be unwilling to Opportunity Commission report on superan- accept, thus putting the whole legislation at nuation entitlements of same sex couples, risk, on behalf of the Democrats I will ad- which did not focus on the whole gamut of dress the issue through a second reading superannuation legislation but on a broad amendment, which has been circulated. I range of it, particularly in relation to public apologise for the late circulation but, hopeful- sector recipients of superannuation. Again, ly, all senators are aware of the content of it that report contained a recommendation, now. I move the Democrat second reading which was brought down by the Human amendment: Rights Commissioner in April this year, that At the end of the motion, add: various sections of the Defence Force Retire- "and that there be laid on the table, on or before ment and Death Benefits Act 1973 and rel- the last sitting day in March 2000, details of all evant trust deed rules under the Military legislative changes that would be required to Superannuation and Benefits Act 1991 be ensure the recognition and equal treatment of amended to remove provisions which impair same-sex couples under all Commonwealth equality of opportunity in employment and superannuation and taxation legislation". deny protection before the law. In particular, The second reading amendment, which I hope it recommended that gender specific terms will receive the support of the Senate, specifi- should be replaced by gender neutral termi- cally and quite simply requires the govern- nology so that benefits apply equally to Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11379 opposite sex and same sex partners. This is conservative, backward or red-necked on another report with another recommendation these sorts of issues. relating specifically to superannuation entitle- Queensland and Tasmania have shown a ments which clearly highlights the unjustifi- progressive approach. They have made posi- able discrimination that same sex couples face tive changes and the sky has not fallen in. In and recommends that that discrimination be fact, significant benefits have arisen as a removed. consequence. We are getting to a stage where the Commonwealth, instead of taking a The second reading amendment that I have leadership role, is very much behind the pack. moved basically requires that all the legisla- Apart from the situation in Western Australia, tive changes that are required to ensure equal where legislation there is completely unac- treatment and recognition of same sex couples ceptable and even more discriminatory, the would have to be compiled and presented to Commonwealth is now about the worst in the the Senate. Part of the aim of that is to ensure country. Whilst this amendment will not that all of the required changes would be achieve concrete legislative change, which is presented in one block. It might be a fairly what the Democrats are aiming to achieve in feeble defence, but nonetheless the defence the long run, it will hopefully move a step that is regularly used by the government is towards that in a way that does not commit that it is inappropriate to make piecemeal the government on any policy level but changes, thus creating anomalies where you provides the information to be made available have different definitions of couples in differ- to the Senate for consideration. ent areas of legislation. This would ensure I do hope that all senators will give favour- that the whole range of required changes able consideration to the amendment. As I across all the superannuation and taxation said at the start, in effect it does provide the legislation would be put together and, in government with an easier path than attempt- effect, would require some degree of govern- ing to make specific legislative changes to ment response to recommendations from this particular bill, which deals with only one reports such as those that I have just detailed. small component of what is, as all Australians It obviously does not commit the government know, a very large and complex superannua- to adopting them, and that is a decision for tion industry governed by quite a range of the government to make. In that sense, it is legislation and regulations. It provides better not a policy based amendment at all; it simply opportunity for the government to present the requires that the legislative detail be provided information to the Senate without having it as a single group to the Senate. I believe that enmeshed with other policy and legislative would make some advance. changes. I hope the Senate as a whole does see this as a positive way forward and sup- As I said at the start of my contribution, ports the amendment. when one speaks often on this issue one is Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant conscious that outcomes are slow in appear- Treasurer) (10.40 a.m.)—I thank senators for ing, certainly at the federal level. Even in the their remarks. Because of an issue that has short couple of years that I have been speak- arisen, I will seek to adjourn the debate. I ing about these issues in this chamber, we move: have seen very significant and positive legis- lative changes being made at the state level in That the debate be adjourned. Tasmania, and there are positive changes now Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (10.40 being made by the state government in my a.m.)—by leave—Just very briefly, Senator own state of Queensland. It is getting more Kemp has just indicated to me what he and more unacceptable and, from my point of intended to do. We do not have an explan- view, embarrassing that the federal legislative ation. I will not oppose the adjournment, but level is now lagging far behind most states— I will make the point that we are ready to even states such as Queensland and Tasmania, proceed. We have been under considerable which some people might mistakenly see as pressure to consider the government’s pro- 11380 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 gram by the end of the week. I do not think Senator KEMP—I think there has been it is satisfactory to adjourn just as we are some change in the running sheet. about to go into committee. The CHAIRMAN—I am not aware of any Whilst we are anxious to cooperate with the changes. There has been no change provided government’s program and to make sure that to the chair. The first amendment, I under- everything is dealt with, this was not indicat- stand, is to clause (2), followed by schedule ed to me until about a minute ago. If there are 3, schedule 4 and schedule 5. problems with the amendment and the deal the Democrats have entered into with the Senator KEMP—I move government government, the government and the Demo- amendment (1): crats should get it right. We should be dealing (1) Clause 2, page 2 (line 24), omit "and 13", with the legislation as is set down on the red substitute ", 13 and 14". for the day. We are not happy about it. We This is just to fix up some technical wording are concerned to make sure that the govern- and typographical errors. ment does deal with its legislation by the end of the week, and this sort of unexpected event Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (10.48 does not help. a.m.)—We are supporting this amendment, Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (10.42 but I have just been informed that the Demo- p.m.)—by leave—I indicate that the crats are redrafting some of their amendments. government’s decision to adjourn the debate It is very difficult to operate when we are is solely their own and has no linkage to the having bills put off when we go into commit- Democrats. Personally, I oppose adjourning tee, and then we are informed the Democrats because I do not see any need to do so in are going to change some amendments. We relation to the bill before us, the amendments are trying to operate in this sort of environ- that are ready to be debated in the committee ment and be cooperative, but it is extraordi- stage or the amendment that I have just narily difficult. moved, which is a straightforward procedural The CHAIRMAN—The question is that amendment. government amendment (1) be agreed to. Question resolved in the affirmative. Senator Carr—They could not manage a TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT duck raffle. What sort of management is this? BILL (No. 8) 1999 The CHAIRMAN—Senator Carr, if you In Committee wish to have a discussion about management Consideration resumed from 30 November. would you please have it somewhere else. (Quorum formed) Senator Hill—What we need is a coopera- tive opposition. The bill. Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (10.49 Treasurer) (10.46 a.m.)—I will be moving a a.m.)—I hope Senator Bartlett is going to give number of amendments to schedules 3 and 5 us an explanation, but I take strong exception on behalf of the government. Amendment (1) to that comment by the government leader, relates to the commencement of item 14 of Senator Hill. We just agreed to put off the the bill. It ensures the consequential amend- committee stage of Superannuation Legisla- ments to the political donations provisions of tion Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1999. I express- the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997 will not ed my concerns about that. The government commence until immediately after the provi- were not ready to go on with their amend- sions of Taxation Laws Amendment (Political ments—there is some last-minute hitch—and Donations) Bill 1999 commence. now I find that the Democrats have a problem with a couple of their amendments. The CHAIRMAN—You are moving government amendment (1) on sheet Senator Carr—Where is the ANTS pack- DA250—that is all? age? Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11381

Senator SHERRY—Yes—where is the administrative amendment which fixes up ANTS package? We are being cooperative. typos and things like that. I guess we will The government has difficulties— have to take him at his word on that. Given Senator Carr—Difficulties? You are very that the opposition have indicated their sup- generous. port for the government amendment, there is probably no need for me to speak any further Senator SHERRY—All right, I am being on that particular amendment. too generous. The government has got diffi- culties and we would like to know what is Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (10.53 going on, what is the program, and what we a.m.)—The Labor opposition will be support- are going to be dealing with. We are trying to ing government amendment No. 1. be as cooperative as we can to finish prior to Amendment agreed to. the end of the week, but it is extraordinarily Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western difficult for an opposition to be cooperative Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the in the way we have when we are jumping Minister for Communications, Information from one bill to another like a jack-in-the- Technology and the Arts) (10.53 a.m.)—I box. I have never seen these sorts of difficul- move government amendment No. 2: ties with programming in my time in the Senate. (2) Schedule 3, page 16 (after line 7), after item 2, insert: Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (10.50 a.m.)—To assist us in progressing through the 2A Application of item 2 amendments on the running sheet, as I indi- Despite the amendment made by item 2, a taxpayer who was entitled to a franking credit cated before and as I think Senator Sherry or a franking rebate in respect of a dividend indicated, the adjourning of the previous bill paid, or a distribution made, before the day on was solely the government’s decision and one which this Act receives the Royal Assent which I was not willing to support. But that continues to be entitled to the franking credit has been adjourned so we are now onto this or franking rebate. bill. I appreciate it is always problematic to This amendment will insert item 2A in sched- get a bill brought on for debate unexpectedly; ule 3 so that no taxpayer is disadvantaged by nonetheless, all the amendments that are the retrospective amendment to subsections going to be moved have been circulated. 160APHH (6) and (7) of the Income Tax I anticipate that I will not be proceeding Assessment Act 1936 to be made by item 2 with some of the Democrat amendments, but in schedule 3. Item 2 will replace the existing as far as I am aware there will not be any concession under the 45-day rule which extra amendments. It is just that I will not be applies where shares or interests in shares are moving some of the amendments that have transferred to a bare trustee with an alterna- been circulated in my name. I will indicate tive concession requested by the custodian’s those when we get to that stage of the debate, and nominee’s industry. This amendment will but it should not present any problems for our ensure that a person who was entitled under progressing through this bill. We do have a the existing concession to a franking credit or running sheet, we do have all the amendments a franking rebate in respect of a dividend paid circulated, and I will indicate as we get to the or a distribution received before the day that appropriate stage, or earlier if people wish, the bill receives royal assent will continue to which amendments I will not be proceeding be entitled to those franking benefits. with. It should be feasible for us to proceed Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (10.54 through this bill for as long as necessary until a.m.)—I indicate that the opposition will be the government has figured out whatever their supporting this government amendment. problem was with the superannuation bill and Parliamentary Secretary, given the cooperation we can get back onto that one. we extended with respect to SLAB 4, could Having said that, I believe the amendment we have at least 10 or 15 minutes notice that before the chair is government amendment you are going to bring it back on? We do not (1), which the minister has indicated is an know when it is going to come back on. 11382 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Senator Ian Campbell—Yes. Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (10.57 a.m.)—Could Senator Ian Campbell tell the Amendment agreed to. committee if it is not the case that it is illegal Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (10.55 to bribe officials? I agree with the move but, a.m.)—by leave—I move opposition amend- if that is correct, why is there a need to ments Nos 1 and 2: specify this? (1) Heading to Schedule 4, page 18 (line 2), after Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western "bribes", insert "to foreign public officials". Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Communications, Information (2) Schedule 4, item 1, page 18 (line 7), after Technology and the Arts) (10.58 a.m.)— "bribes", insert "to foreign public officials". Senator Brown, I am sorry, but I was distract- These amendments go to the non-deductibility ed when you spoke and my officers could not of bribes to foreign public officials. It is our quite hear you. You are usually very articulate desire that the denial of tax deductibility of and clear, but we missed what you said. With bribes to foreign officials ought equally be respect, could you please repeat the question? extended to bribes for officials in domestic Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (10.58 situations. On the same principles as the a.m.)—I said that I understood that it was government has outlined for foreign officials, illegal to bribe foreign officials under Austral- which we absolutely support, denial of tax ian law. If that is the case, why do we need deductibility should also be extended to this specific section—which I agree with? It domestic bribery situations. This would level should not be tax deductible, but if it is illegal the playing field for businesses operating in surely it is not tax deductible. Australia. Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western We would like the government to consider Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the and respond positively to the suggestion that Minister for Communications, Information non-deductibility should be extended to Technology and the Arts) (10.59 a.m.)—I am domestic bribery situations at all government informed that, although it is clearly a criminal levels—Commonwealth, state, territory and activity, the different payments are not differ- local governments—not just to foreign situa- entiated. This amendment seeks to do that and tions. That is the intent of our amendments therefore make a clear differentiation. I guess (1) and (2) and the next amendment that we it is fair to say that it is a technical definition- will be considering, amendment No. 3. al problem under the criminal law, but the tax law does not have within it the capability of Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western making a differentiation. Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Communications, Information Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (11.00 Technology and the Arts) (10.56 a.m.)—The a.m.)—With respect to Senator Brown’s government will not be supporting this question—because I had the same thought amendment, and I think it is incumbent upon myself, Senator Brown, when this issue was me to set out some of the reasons why. drawn to my attention some time ago—I am Firstly, the OECD has recommended that advised that, obviously, it is illegal to bribe in member countries should deny tax deductib- Australia but that it is not illegal to claim a ility for bribes made to foreign public offi- tax deduction for it. So yes, you could be cials. Secondly, the government shares the prosecuted, with obviously whatever the concerns of other member nations that the penalty is for making a bribe, but under our payment of bribes to foreign officials causes tax law you can claim a tax deduction for it. economic and trade distortions. This measure That is my advice. That is why we are mov- implements that recommendation. Deductions ing this amendment. for bribes to foreign public officials will be Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.00 disallowed with effect from the 1999-2000 a.m.)—I would like to clear this up. Obvious- year of income. Deductions will still be ly, if you are driving to work and you break allowed for facilitation payments. the speed limit and get fined for that, you Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11383 cannot deduct that as a part of your work was probably cheaper if I just got out of bed program, because you have broken the law. 10 minutes earlier and left home earlier, Senator Sherry—Because it is specifically rather than speeding along the Roe Highway excluded under the tax act. Bribery is not. to my Cannington office and meeting the constabulary on the way. The answer is, as Senator BROWN—It is interesting to Senator Sherry said by way of interjection, me—and I am sure it will be to a lot of that there is a specific exclusion in the tax listeners—that the tax act has to list individu- law about those fines. In a way this is clarify- ally all the things that are broken under the ing the tax law in a not dissimilar way, law or otherwise it is not tax deductible. That ensuring that moneys used to bribe foreign is interesting. I support the amendment, but I officials cannot be deducted. am learning here. I would have thought that illegal activities ought not be tax deductible. The point that should also be made clear is It would be interesting to hear from Senator that there is no evidence that taxpayers are Campbell what the general philosophy here is claiming tax deductions for expenditure on if that is not the case. bribes paid to Australian officials. I guess that Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (11.01 would apply to foreign officials as well. It a.m.)—I think there was a request for infor- makes some sense to say that if you are mation in Senator Brown’s contribution which involving yourself in illegal activities it is we are waiting on. While that is being gath- unlikely that you are going to bring the ered I will add an extra one in relation to this money you might use for that activity into a opposition amendment. The principle of it formal system such as the taxation system. It seems fairly straightforward. It uses exactly is more likely that you are using money that the same wording as is already in the bill in you want to ensure is outside the system. So relation to foreign public officials. I know that it makes sense that there is no evidence of it. the parliamentary secretary has explained that Certainly there is no evidence of claiming tax it is a technical issue and why it would be deductions for expenditure on bribes paid to problematic from the government’s point of Australian officials. While some royal com- view for this amendment to become part of missions and inquiries into corruption have the tax act. But it seems straightforward reported the payment of bribes to police enough from the Democrats’ perspective and officers and other government officials, these the principle, obviously, is a positive one. So, payments have not been claimed via the for us not to support it, I need to hear some taxation system. I think, again, on the face of indication from the government as to why it it, that is logical. You are not likely to report would present some issue of unworkability. money that is being used for those circum- stances to the tax office and try to claim a Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western deduction for it. You would have to be pretty Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the stupid to do that. Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the Arts) (11.02 a.m.)—I To respond to Senator Sherry’s point, the have been provided with some additional government obviously takes the matter of any material which I think will answer Senator bribery of Australian officials most seriously. Sherry’s points in more detail as well as There are very strong criminal penalties respond to Senator Bartlett’s request for applying to Australian officials acting cor- information. I think Senator Sherry by inter- ruptly. These penalties are backed up with jection responded accurately to Senator effective enforcement regimes, including via Brown’s point about why you cannot deduct the Federal Police. The rationale for denying a speeding fine. I do remember a particular deductibility of bribes to foreign public year in Western Australia where it would officials is that effective criminal sanctions have been very helpful for me to be able to against such behaviour do not exist in certain do so. I had about five speeding fines in a less developed countries, and this rationale row. It was a significant expense involved in does not apply within Australia. This answers getting to and from work. But I realised it Senator Bartlett’s question as to why we do 11384 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 not need this amendment. Therefore, any example, are running a brothel when it is extension of the bill would have no impact on illegal, a gambling activity that is illegal or illegal behaviour. We do not believe that it is growing a crop that is illegal. If the taxation a beneficial measure. department knows about them they should be Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.06 taxed like any other activity. But I think it a.m.)—For clarification of the matter, I ask should be clear in the tax law that there ought the parliamentary secretary: why is there not not be the facility for getting a tax deduction a simple law which says that if it is illegal it for an illegal activity. That is surely what the is not tax deductible? government is saying here. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- If you bribe a foreign official that is illegal. tor Calvert)—The question is that the amend- Under Australian law, that is not allowed. ments moved by the opposition be agreed to. You will not be able to tax deduct it either. Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.07 What we all know is that Australians and a.m.)—That was quite an important question Australian companies are involved in the I put. I would like an answer to it. The business of bribing foreign officials in count- question is that if an activity is illegal, it ries to our north. Apparently that is being put ought not be tax deductible. If we had such down as a necessary part of business and tax a law, we would not be getting into specifi- deductibility is being sought for that. I believe cally whether it is bribing a foreign official or that it ought not be. As the parliamentary something else. It would be automatically secretary has explained, there is a worldwide excluded from deductibility because it would move to try and stop tax deductibility for be illegal. The implication otherwise is that bribing foreign officials. there are some illegal activities which you can I do not want to hold up the committee. I tax deduct, but that does not seem logical to would say that the government needs to look me. at amending the tax law, if it has not done so Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western already, to simply say that the money gained Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the from any activity which is illegal is not tax Minister for Communications, Information deductible. It would save listing every crime Technology and the Arts) (11.08 a.m.)—The under the statutes and saying, ‘You can’t point that needs to be made is that illegal deduct this, you can’t deduct that.’ If you are income is assessable but, to refer back to the speeding on your way to work, you cannot point I made in my previous intervention in deduct the fine that you have to pay, because the debate, it is very rarely reported. Just as, that is an illegal activity. If you incur a to our knowledge, there is no evidence of business cost when you are making money illegal deductions being claimed, again it is illegally, while you get taxed for the making commonsense that someone making illegal of the money, you cannot deduct whatever income will not report it and say, ‘Here’s illegal thing it is you are doing as a tax some illegal income; please tax me.’ They are deduction. I think it would make tax law not likely to say, ‘Here are some deductions much simpler if the Taxation Office and the for illegal expenditures.’ Does that make it minister look at this and come back to the clear to you? parliament with a very simple amendment to Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.09 the tax law which says, ‘Costs incurred a.m.)—No, it does not. Here we are dealing through illegal activities are not tax with an amendment to the tax law which says deductible.’ that if you bribe a foreign official, which is Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western an illegal thing to do, you cannot tax deduct Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the it. I would have thought that there should be Minister for Communications, Information a tax law which says that if you do anything Technology and the Arts) (11.12 a.m.)—I that is illegal, you cannot tax deduct it. I can appreciate Senator Brown’s comment that he see the merit in looking at illegal activities. does not want to bog down the committee The obvious ones that come to mind, for stage in this debate. It is actually a very Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11385 interesting debate. I am getting lots of very bribes to public officials...... 26.53 good advice about some of the examples. The 2 After section 26-52 brothel is one that you raised. I am not sure Insert: whether using that as an analogy is the best 26-53 Bribes to public officials way to put this argument forward into the (1) You cannot deduct under this Act a loss public domain when there are hundreds of or outgoing you incur that is a *bribe to thousands of people tuned into the parlia- a public official. mentary and news networks across Australia (2) An amount is a bribe to a public official listening intently to this debate, as well as to the extent that: those plugged into the Internet who are (a) you incur the amount in, or in connec- following it in that way. tion with: The best way to summarise it without (i) providing a benefit to another per- getting into difficult hypothetical examples son; or about income derived from brothels and then (ii) causing a benefit to be provided to potentially taxing that income, and then the another person; or tax treatment of potential deductions that (iii) offering to provide, or promising to might occur in the business of running a provide, a benefit to another person; brothel—and the mind boggles as to the or various business expenses that might go into (iv) causing an offer of the provision of that operation and the various goods and a benefit, or a promise of the provi- services that may need to be deducted in sion of a benefit, to be made to terms of running that—is to say that the point another person; and in general is that the tax office’s job is to (b) the benefit is not legitimately due to assess the income and tax the income. We the other person (see subsection (3); have made the point about how the tax office and will get that information in the first place and (c) you incur the amount with the intention that it may well be sparse. But their job is to of influencing a *public official (who may or may not be the other person) in assess the income and collect the tax on that the exercise of the official’s duties as income. It is not their job—it is the job of the a foreign public official in order to: criminal enforcement side of things—to make (i) obtain or retain business; or judgments as to breaches of the law. (ii) obtain or retain an advantage in the It is not the tax office’s job to make a conduct of business that is not legiti- judgment as to how that money has been mately due to you, or another per- derived. It is a difficult issue. We would son, as the recipient, or intended probably all agree with your principle. It is a recipient, of the advantage in the matter of how to apply it in legislation. I conduct of business (see subsection (4)). think the way we are applying the principle in relation to the bribery of foreign officials The benefit may be any advantage and is is a sensible move forward and is achievable. not limited to property. I commend the bill as it stands to the Senate. Benefit not legitimately due (3) In working out if a benefit is not legiti- Amendments agreed to. mately due to another person in a particu- Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (11.16 lar situation, disregard the following: a.m.)—I move: (a) the fact that the benefit may be cus- (3) Page 21 (after line 10), after Schedule 4, tomary, or perceived to be customary, insert: in the situation; Schedule 4A—Non-deductibility of bribes to (b) the value of the benefit; public officials (c) any official tolerance of the benefit. Income Tax Assessment Act 1997 Advantage in the conduct of business that is 1 Section 12-5 (before table item headed not legitimately due "buildings") (4) In working out if an advantage in the Insert: conduct of business is not legitimately 11386 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

due in a particular situation, disregard the respect of the two previous amendments that following: were carried are the same as those for this (a) the fact that the advantage may be amendment. customary, or perceived to be custom- ary, in the situation; Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western (b) the value of the advantage; Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the (c) any official tolerance of the advantage. Minister for Communications, Information Duties of public official Technology and the Arts) (11.17 a.m.)—I agree with Senator Sherry’s proposition that (5) The duties of a *public official are any authorities, duties, functions or powers the arguments are similar. I do not think we that: need to put them again, unless the Democrats (a) are conferred on the official; or have a different view on this amendment, which I would be surprised at. I record that (b) the official holds himself or herself out as having. the government is opposed to this for the same reasons I have put previously. But after 3 At the end of section 110-25 a long training in politics, I can see where the Add: numbers lie. (1) Expenditure does not form part of the cost base to the extent that it is a *bribe Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (11.17 to a public official. a.m.)—As Senator Ian Campbell suspected, 4 Subsection 995-1(1) the Democrats support this amendment for the Insert: reasons that we supported the previous two bribe to a public official has the meaning amendments. We see them as consequential, given by section 26-53. basically. I agree with Senator Campbell’s 5 Subsection 995-1(1) idea about not unnecessarily chewing up time Insert: in the chamber. I speak in the interests of ensuring the maximum productivity of one of public official means an employee or offi- our future amendments. I am keen to deal cial of an *Australian Government Agency or of a local governing body. Local govern- with this prior to my amendment coming on, ing body has the same meaning as in sec- which is in the not-too-distant future. tion 74A of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1936. The policy sense and the detail of the 6 Application amendment that the opposition has moved are The amendments made by this Schedule appropriate. In the debate between Senator apply to losses, outgoings or expenditure Campbell and Senator Brown on the previous incurred in the 1999-2000 income year or a amendments, I did not indicate at much length later income year. the Democrats’ rationale behind supporting This amendment is consistent with the two those amendments. It is probably appropriate amendments that the opposition has just to do that now. Whilst there may be some moved and which have been passed. There technical issues related to having such amend- are two very minor corrections to this amend- ments in legislation, the policy intent and the ment. They correct what would be described message contained in the body of this amend- as typographical errors. Where we have ment that we are debating now, which is ‘insert "bribes to public officials"’, we have probably the substantive one, are positive. It 26.53. It should read 26-53. We have at the ensures consistency and represents a consis- end of section 110-25: tent message. It ensures that bribes to foreign public officials are not tax deductible, which Add: is the government’s intent. That intent extends (1) Expenditure does not form part of— to bribes to all public officials, including it should read ‘Add: (10) Expenditure does those within Australia. The definitions of not form part of’. They are typographical ‘public official’ and ‘bribes’ contained in here errors. I do not want to unduly keep the mirror what is contained within the govern- Senate. The arguments we put forward in ment’s bill. I cannot see any problem with it. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11387

For that reason, the Democrats will support under section 30-212 is obtained, you the amendment. may choose that the *capital proceeds from the event are replaced with the Amendment agreed to. value of the property as determined under Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western the valuation. Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the (2) You can only make this choice if the Minister for Communications, Information valuation was made no more than 90 days Technology and the Arts) (11.20 a.m.)—by before or after the CGT event. leave—I move: I will put some quick words on the record to (3) Schedule 5, page 22 (before line 5), before support the amendments. Amendment No. 3 item 1, insert: clarifies that the cost of obtaining a valuation 1A At the end of subsection 25-5(1) from the Commissioner of Taxation is tax deductible where the valuation is required Add: under the gift provisions of the Income Tax ; or (d) obtaining a valuation in accordance Assessment Act 1997. Amendment No. 4 with section 30-212. relates to the cultural gifts program. It ensures (4) Schedule 5, page 24 (before line 4), before that donors making gifts of property under the item 11, insert: cultural gifts program will receive a deduction 10A At the end of section 30-205 equal to the amount they would have received Add: before the new capital gains tax exemption (2) However, this section does not apply if, under new subsection 118-60(2) became apart from the operation of subsection 118- available. 60(2), an amount would have been included in your assessable income in respect of the Amendment No. 5, which relates to trading gift you made. stock, will allow taxpayers to choose to use (5) Schedule 5, page 26 (before line 27), before the commissioner’s valuation obtained under item 19, insert: section 30-212 for the purposes of valuing the 18A After subsection 70-90(1) disposal of trading stock outside the ordinary course of business. Taxpayers may only Insert: choose this alternative valuation where the (1A) If the disposal is the giving of a gift of disposal occurs no more than 90 days before property by you for which a valuation under section 30-212 is obtained, you or after the date of the commissioner’s valu- may choose that the market value is ation. Finally, amendment No. 6 allows replaced with the value of the property taxpayers to choose to use the commissioner’s as determined under the valuation. You valuation obtained under section 30-212 for can only make this choice if the valu- the purposes of valuing the disposal of a ation was made no more than 90 days capital gains tax asset where the disposal before or after the disposal. occurs no more than 90 days before or after 18B Section 70-95 the date of the commissioner’s valuation. Omit "market value", substitute "amount". Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (11.22 (6) Schedule 5, page 27 (before line 3), before a.m.)—Is there a supplementary explanatory item 20, insert: memorandum? 19A Section 116-25 (table item A1, at the end of the column headed "Special rules:") Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Add: Minister for Communications, Information If the disposal is a gift for which a section Technology and the Arts) (11.22 a.m.)—Yes, 30-212 valuation is obtained: see section 116-100 there is. That is my oversight; I should have done this a few minutes ago. I table the 19B At the end of Division 116 supplementary explanatory memorandum Add: relating to the government amendments to be 116-100 Gifts of property moved to the bill. The supplementary expla- (1) If CGT event A1 is the giving of a gift of natory memorandum was circulated in the property by you for which a valuation chamber on 8 December 1999. 11388 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (11.22 flipping through the papers that there seems a.m.)—I have a couple of questions to ask in to have been a focus on charities and the new this section to do with the general issue of tax system in the last few hours. The oppo- philanthropy and the amendments we are sition seem to be focused on it. That is part considering. In the committee hearing, Sena- of a range of new integrity measures in terms tor Campbell, we heard evidence that in the of charities. We do not believe that the tax United States, on the issue of philanthropy, law is the appropriate place to be creating a those individuals and organisations that give new disclosure regime for charities. money under this broad heading do have to Charities themselves and philanthropic publicly disclose. Their accounts are available organisations would realise there are benefits publicly for people to look at to see where the to having a disclosure regime and to having money is going. Why did the government not transparency so that people involved in those consider that approach in respect of the issue charities and people who donate to those of philanthropy in this legislation? charities feel some comfort that the money Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.24 going into them is being directed for the a.m.)—While Senator Ian Campbell is deliber- purpose for which the charity was established. ating there, I would like to ask a question. The way to achieve that is not through tax- Why is the $5,000 limit there? Why is there ation law. a differentiation under this and coming sec- tions so that you can get tax deductibility if Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (11.27 the donation you are making to, for example, a.m.)—There is just one other point that I the National Trust organisation is worth more wanted to touch on briefly in this area. There than $5,000 but not if it is less? There are is obviously a cost to government revenue of different conditions that apply. I will be philanthropic activity. That is obviously a line moving an amendment to remove that distinc- item in the budget papers. Will the tax office tion. Why has the government decided that be providing a report giving more detail about $5,000 is the barrier and why, if your gift is where these moneys are being directed worth more than that, do you get better through philanthropic activity? I am not deductibility than if your gift is less than that? talking about a list of who gives what in terms of naming individuals or companies, but Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western some idea of where these moneys are being Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the directed. From an opposition perspective and, Minister for Communications, Information I would have thought, from a government Technology and the Arts) (11.25 a.m.)— perspective it would be very useful to indicate Senator Brown, I am sorry, I was taking what is occurring with the use of public advice while you were speaking. expenditures. Would you indicate, Senator Senator Brown—Give your response, Campbell, what degree of reporting is likely Senator, and then I will come back with mine. from the tax office on this matter? Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Thank you. Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western The issue Senator Sherry raises is an import- Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the ant one. As Senator Sherry will know from Minister for Communications, Information the committee’s hearings, as with virtually Technology and the Arts) (11.29 a.m.)—The everything in public policy there are pros and advice I have received is that the Australian cons to different approaches. The govern- Taxation Office has not provided that level of ment’s approach in this area is to be dealt detail in its reporting since time immemorial. with under the next package of bills that is Under the previous government it was not coming before us, which will see the Senate done. However, as all honourable senators return to the second reading debate on the know, independent research is done on these four remaining ANTS bills. matters—important research trying to find out Senator Sherry will know about the register where the benefit of these deductions falls. of charities, which will be established as part Senator Sherry quite rightly points out that of the new tax system. I have noticed from giving tax breaks and tax deductions is a form Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11389 of expenditure because it potentially costs the body donates a painting worth $4,000 which revenue. It is worthwhile information, but the could have some regional significance, for tax office has never done it in the past and example, to a Bendigo or Dubbo or Laun- does not propose to do so in this case. ceston collection, they do not get deductibility Senator Brown, I have been provided with unless it was done in the last 12 months. I do a response to your question, but as I was not think it is difficult to differentiate that taking advice while you were asking it, I am from second-hand clothes. The problem I not sure that the brief I have specifically have with this is that it means the small donor answers your question. So that I do not say right across the Australian populace who may something that is not right on the mark, as I not have works and properties of more than seek to make all my answers, could you $5,000 that they can donate is disadvantaged quickly recap? against the big donor who, being better off, is going to have works or properties worth much Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.30 more and who gets the deduction regardless a.m.)—The question was: why are donations of how old the item being donated might be. of property valued at more than $5,000 being given better tax deductibility than those Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western valued at less than $5,000? For example, if a Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the property is worth more than $5,000, that is Minister for Communications, Information okay, but if the value of the property is less Technology and the Arts) (11.33 a.m.)—In than $5,000 it is only tax deductible if it was relation to cultural gifts, I am advised that the bought during the 12 months before making example you used, which is a painting, would the gift. Why is that $5,000 barrier put there? fall under the category of cultural gifts and under that category there is not a $5,000 Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western threshold. So you would be able to donate a Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the painting to a collection in Launceston, Dubbo Minister for Communications, Information or anywhere else and still get a full deduction Technology and the Arts) (11.31 a.m)— for it, probably for the very reasons the Congratulations to my bureaucratic advisers: honourable senator is thinking about. the answer is right on the mark. It may not be the answer that Senator Brown wants to hear, Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.34 but I have read it and it seems a reasonable a.m.)—Then why the limitation on cultural proposition. There may be a disagreement donations and not, for example, donations about whether the tax office always proffers which add to the environmental amenity? reasonable suggestions, but the reason is that Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western the government does not support varying the Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the current provisions of the legislation in this Minister for Communications, Information area—that is, the $5,000 cut-off. The thres- Technology and the Arts) (11.34 a.m.)— hold is imposed quite simply to avoid the Cultural gifts is a quite specific program. compliance costs associated with allowing Senator Brown would understand why there deductions for donations of low value items, is such a program; he has just given a good for example, second-hand clothes or used example of that—a piece of art or cultural household goods, and to simplify enforce- heritage being donated to a specific collection ment. Donors making donations below the or other purpose. Gifts that might add to threshold are still able to access tax deduc- environmental or other heritage values fall tions by selling the asset and donating cash. under the same advice I gave previously, that The bill provides for income tax deductions is, it is purely a compliance cost issue. There to be allowed for the market value of dona- is always a problem in these debates in the tions of property worth more than $5,000 parliament as to where you set a threshold. regardless of when it was purchased or ac- There comes a stage where you need to draw quired. a line. By their nature they are always arbi- Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.32 trary. Someone who wants to donate some- a.m.)—That presumably means that, if some- thing worth $4,500 is going to ask why the 11390 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 system is biased against them and point out my property in the Swan Valley for the that if they made a donation worth $5,500 Wilderness Society in Western Australia to they would get a deduction. That is the have a fundraising function for my younger problem. You will have the same arguments brother. That is why Senator Brown and I get whether you set it at $2,000 or $1,000. on so well: he knows where my feelings lie Our advice is that compliance costs are in relation to wilderness and the Wilderness balanced in the national interest if you set the Society. threshold at $5,000. We could easily spend That is an example. Let us say I had some- the next two sitting days coming up with thing of value to auction. I could easily sell examples illustrating that that is not a good it, create some money and hand over a cheque threshold. Our best advice is that that is a to the Wilderness Society. That means that reasonable threshold in terms of costs and someone who has a piece of property that is benefits. The cultural gifts program specifical- worth less than $5,000 can still do the right ly creates a system that will allow cultural thing by the Wilderness Society or any other gifts to be given, which solves the problem organisation that they wish to donate to. It that Senator Brown first raised. In terms of ensures that that sort of philanthropy can go giving gifts to an organisation that may seek on. But, in terms of the compliance cost of to benefit Australia’s natural environment or property and the additional compliance that other heritage, donations of over $5,000 of will relate to gifting property, the government property will be tax deductible; if property is believes that $5,000 is a good threshold. worth less than $5,000 the option is that the Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.39 good could be sold and the donation made. In a.m.)—I am tempted to add that, with Christ- that case the donation would be tax mas being around the corner, the Wilderness deductible. Society shops are the best place to go to. We are not therefore saying that anybody I have a couple of follow-ups on that. I will who has got property of less than $5,000 to give an example. Let us say you have made give cannot benefit the organisation. We are a collection of historic labels for apple boxes just saying that, in terms of the compliance from the Huon Valley, which are very brilli- mechanisms in relation to the gifting of ant and colourful, for the apples being sent property, there are bigger compliance issues overseas in the 1950s, 1960s and so on, and at stake. I am not an expert in this field, but you want to donate that. They are assessed as obviously, if you donate property, valuation being worth $3,000. Surely it is not a sensible issues come into it. If you are donating cash, option, if you are going to get tax it is quite clear: you write them a cheque. If deductibility, to have to sell them somewhere you were, for example, to auction or put up to a private collector when you want to put for sale on one of the many excellent Austral- them into the public domain and then add ian electronic auction rooms on the Internet $2,000 to get tax deductibility. I want to these days a good or an item that you wanted check on that. I hope Senator Campbell is to sell and donate the money to the Wilder- going to say that, because it is a cultural ness Society in Tasmania—an excellent cause, donation, exemption will apply. The second I am sure you would agree, Senator Brown— thing is that I wonder about the provision Senator Brown—Absolutely. which says that gifts of property valued at less than $5,000 are tax deductible only if the Senator IAN CAMPBELL—My younger property was bought within the 12 months brother Colin spent many years of his life before making the gift. Why is that proviso raising money for the Wilderness Society in there? Tasmania. Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Senator McGauran—Why didn’t you? Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Senator IAN CAMPBELL—I actually Minister for Communications, Information helped to raise money for the Wilderness Technology and the Arts) (11.41 a.m.)—On Society in Western Australia and gave over the first point, yes, that would be the answer Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11391

I would give. I hope the tax commissioner gram is a quite specific one. I know from would agree with me. Senator Brown would some experience that there are clearly guide- be shocked to learn that I had a collection of lines in relation to that and I hope that they those apple crate logos, so I will not surprise have not been altered too much by incorporat- him. I do not. ing apple crates from the Huon Valley. Senator Brown—They are very sought An example would be if someone wanted after in Tasmania. to gift an item to the Smith Family, St Vin- Senator IAN CAMPBELL—It would be cent de Paul or anyone else. Say they wanted fascinating to see them. I think that is the to gift some item that is useful to them—a right answer. That would certainly, in my own washing machine, cooking equipment or interpretation, be regarded as a cultural gift. anything else—and I am sure it would happen quite regularly that people would buy some- In terms of the issue of buying something thing and provide it to a charitable organisa- within 12 months and gifting it and therefore tion. And it is very obvious what the value of not having the $5,000 threshold, again it that good is if it has been purchased within comes down purely to compliance issues. If the past 12 months. you have purchased something within 12 months and gifted it, quite clearly the valu- With the compliance cost in relation to ation issues are a lot simpler and it will be determining the value for the sake of tax easy to say what the value was because there deductibility purposes, the key issue of why would have been a transaction that has taken you set the threshold at $5,000—which is place to make the value quite clear. The other how much paperwork and how much compli- point I should make is that it has been part of ance cost is involved by the parties involved, the legislative regime and we are not seeking including the tax office, in setting the amount to change that. It is not a new measure; it is for the deduction through valuation processes something that has been in place for some and other issues—is solved if the item has years. been purchased within 12 months because the Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.43 valuation is therefore quite clear. a.m.)—The problem with it is that it has the An item with some historical value or effect of giving tax deductibility to somebody significance that has been in the ownership of who buys an item of less than $5,000 value a family over 150 years is clearly a different and then donates it to a public institution or matter when you come to valuation. Ultimate- collection. But somebody who has got some- ly, the tax office needs to place a value on thing which may have greater historical value things, and the costs involved in trying to because it has been part of a family collection determine the value of those items make the or a household for 150 years and is valued at government’s point. That is why there is this $4,500, and there are lots of such items, does exemption for items purchased in the past 12 not get the tax deductibility unless it falls months. It is a provision that has been in the within whatever the definition is of cultural law for many years and it makes sense. That value. If that is the case, if such items get is why we are keeping it there. exemption because they are of cultural value, Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.47 why have this proviso of 12 months? What a.m.)—Could Senator Campbell enlighten me items are you looking at that a person might as to the provision that, for gifts of property buy that are not cultural items and might gift to cultural institutions only, tax deductions within 12 months to an institution that is can be spread over five years? Why not the going to draw the allowance for tax deducti- gift of a property which, for example, has bility? Can you give me an example? high environmental value, where an endan- Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western gered species may be involved? Why can’t Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the that be spread over five years as well? Why Minister for Communications, Information is there the restriction as to it being a gift of Technology and the Arts) (11.44 a.m.)—There cultural value? I might add that I have some is not a lot to add. The cultural gifting pro- intention down the line of giving a block of 11392 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 land that I own to the Bush Heritage Fund. Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Maybe that is an interest that I should declare Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the in debating this particular area of tax reform. Minister for Communications, Information Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Technology and the Arts) (11.51 a.m.)— Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Firstly, that was contained in amendment No. Minister for Communications, Information 1, which has been agreed to. Secondly, Technology and the Arts) (11.48 a.m.)—I can because the political donations bill is still to offer two things in response to the important be considered, the commencement provisions issues raised by Senator Brown. Firstly, the have been altered by that amendment to cultural gifts program is a quite specific one. ensure the provisions that relate to that in this You have made a fair point: why cultural gifts bill do not come into effect until the political and why not others? It is a specific decision donations legislation becomes law. Clearly, it of government to assist with cultural gifts. It would be presumptuous of us, and technically is a discrete program. silly of us, to predict such a thing occurring. We hope it will occur at some stage in the As for the issue that Senator Brown raised future, but this just will not come into being in relation to gifts, for example, of land with until that happens. environmental significance, Senator Hill, the minister for the environment, has made it Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (11.51 clear to me—and I now pass this on to the a.m.)—The final point I was going to make chamber—that he does intend to come into relates to the question that I asked earlier the chamber shortly. He was going to address about the tax office giving us an overview of these issues using the platform of the pro- where these philanthropic monies are going to posed Democrat amendments, which we are in the community. We do not agree with your moving towards, if not rapidly. Senator Hill approach that information will not be provid- was wanting to come into the chamber to deal ed—we would like that information. We have with those issues and it might pay, since he not moved an amendment to that effect, but is certainly far more versed in these matters I indicate that we will be pursuing that issue than I am, for him to address that issue when at another time, perhaps on other legislation. he arrives. I am sure he is watching this on I do not have any other comments. We are the monitor in his room and that could be a supporting these government amendments. good cue for him to leave his room and Amendments agreed to. wander towards the chamber. Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (11.49 Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western a.m.)—I think you might be right—I am not Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the going to ask a question about the issue that Minister for Communications, Information Senator Brown is referring to. I will be brief. Technology and the Arts) (11.53 a.m.)—Can In the supplementary explanatory memoran- I make a suggestion, as Senator Hill has come dum, on page 3 the last dot point paragraph to the chamber. I am not sure about it because says: I have not discussed it with clerks, advisers or anyone else, which is very dangerous. Would . ensure that the consequential amendments to the there be any downside to moving to the political donations provisions in the ITAA 1997 will not commence until immediately after the consideration of some of the Democrats provisions of Taxation Laws Amendment (Political amendments and Australian Greens amend- Donations) Bill 1999 commence. ments in relation to gifts of property? Can you explain what the purpose of that is The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- and if you are moving that in the amendments tor Hogg)—We are not proceeding as the we are considering here? The reason for parliamentary secretary requested. asking is that we have a later amendment that you would be aware of and we want to know Senator HILL (South Australia—Minister whether that paragraph is going to cut across for the Environment and Heritage) (11.53 it. a.m.)—Can I try to help the committee. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11393

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—We pared to support them in this bill. We think, would love your assistance. as I said, that we have made a historic start Senator HILL—And you would help me along this road of encouraging the disposition if you could liberally interpret the standing of property for conservation purposes, and we orders for a moment or two. We are coming are prepared as a government to seriously to a range of amendments—particularly from consider other initiatives during the course of the Australian Democrats but there are also next year. It has been interesting to reflect some from the Greens—that seek to extend upon the work that has already been done in the benefits that we have included in this bill this area, particularly by the CSIRO’s Carl in relation to philanthropy for conservation Binning and Mike Young, which has been purposes. Within this bill there are quite his- very helpful in putting together a possible torical changes to encourage donations of suite of initiatives that a government might property for conservation purposes, and that take in regard to this—two of which, as I should not be overlooked. In the future, a said, have been picked up by the government donation of property for that objective will be in this bill. It is also interesting to note that tax deductible, which will be a huge incentive significant property owners and business for the transfer of properties. That is some- people in Australia are now coming together what consistent with a trend that is taking and debating among themselves what they place in some other countries, in particular the might be able to do to encourage this philo- United States. It has contributed there to a sophical change in the Australian people vast array of property being dedicated by in- towards the disposition of property for conser- dividuals to conservation purposes, which sig- vation purposes. So the community is moving nificantly complements the traditional way of to a position which the government would doing that through a national park system. So, obviously regard as desirable. through this bill, the government is taking a There is considerable information on the major step to encourage the development of public record as to a possible suite of further such a philosophy in Australia. It does it in initiatives, and the Australian Democrats and relation to the income tax deduction. It is also the Greens have put on the table today some a benefit that capital gains tax will not apply further options in that regard. The to a test of entry disposition of such a proper- government’s view is that they should be ty. seriously considered during the course of next The Australian Democrats, as is not un- year—obviously not surprisingly in relation to usual, say, ‘Yes, we’ll take that, but we want the cost as well as the issue of effectiveness— to go further.’ Their amendments cover a and then the government can make a decision range of other initiatives that could be ad- as to which further initiatives, if any, it dressed by government to even further en- should take, within the budgetary constraints courage philanthropy in this area. In particu- of the government but also with the objective lar, they provide that where a property owner of getting the most effective outcome in terms covenants a property or part of a property for of conservation for whatever commitment that conservation purposes and that results in a the government might be prepared to make in reduction in the value of the property, then relation to revenue forgone. The government that should be treated as a tax deductible sum. put to the committee that that is a better way In addition, they say that where a property to proceed on these other initiatives that are has been donated, the donor should have the put up in the form of amendments by the additional advantage of being able to average minority parties today, and to that sentiment out that donation for income tax purposes the government would not be prepared to over a period of five years. Again, they argue support them on this occasion in this bill. that if a property is donated for this purpose Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (11.59 capital gains tax should not apply. a.m.)—Senator Hill spoke to amendments that The government’s position on each of these I have not moved yet. To give context to his additional measures is that we are not pre- comments, I will move the amendment I think 11394 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 he is talking about, which is No. 10 on sheet in the market value of the land before and 1669. I move: after you entered into the covenant. (10) Schedule 5, page 24 (after line 12), after (3) For the purposes of sections 30-247 and item 11, insert: 118-60, your entry into a conservation covenant is deemed to be a gift of proper- 11A After section 30-220 ty that is deductible under section 30-15 Insert: because of an item in the table in that section. 30-222 How much you can deduct for certain gifts of land (4) In this section, conservation covenant means any approved form of agreement (1) This section contains the rules for work- relating to the management, use and ing out how much you can deduct for a development of an area of land that is gift of property that you made to a recipi- registered or noted on the land title and ent covered by item 1 or 2 of the table in requires the landholder and all subsequent section 30-15 if: landholders: (a) the property is land or an interest in (a) to maintain native vegetation and land; and undertake any other actions required to (b) the recipient is: conserve the biodiversity values of that land; or (i) an *environmental organisation or a fund, authority or institution covered (b) to maintain buildings or structures or by the table in subsection 30-55(2); other items of cultural significance that or are registered on a recognised Commonwealth, State or Territory (ii) a public fund established and main- heritage register; tained under a will or instrument of trust solely for the purpose of pro- and includes, but is not limited to, an agree- viding money, property or benefits to ment under the following provisions: an entity mentioned in subparagraph (c) sections 304 to 311 of the Environment (i). Protection and Biodiversity Conserva- (2) If you sell land that you own to an entity tion Act 1999; mentioned in paragraph (1)(b) for less (d) sections 69B and 69C of the National than its market value, you can deduct the Parks and Wildlife Act 1974 (NSW); difference between the market value of (e) sections 41 to 44 of the Native Vegeta- the property on the day you made the sale tion Conservation Act 1997 (NSW); and the actual sale price. (f) section 51 of the Nature Conservation (3) If you give land that you own to an entity Act 1992 (Qld); mentioned in paragraph (1)(b) but you (g) section 3A of the Victorian Conserva- retain the right to live on that land for the tion Trust Act 1972; remainder of your life, you can deduct the market value of the property subject to (h) sections 69 to 72 of the Conservation, your life interest. Forests and Lands Act 1987 (Vic); (4) For the purposes of sections 30-247 and (i) section 23 of the Native Vegetation 118-60, a transaction covered by subsec- Act 1991 (SA); tion (2) or (3) is deemed to be a gift of (j) section 30B of the Soil and Land Con- property that is deductible under section servation Act 1945 (WA); 30-15 of an item in the table in that (k) section 29 of the Heritage of Western section. Australia Act 1990 (WA); 30-223 How much you can deduct for land (l) sections 37A to 37H of the National affected by a conservation covenant Parks and Wildlife Act 1970 (Tas). (1) This section contains the rules for work- There is a range of amendments on the ing out how much you can deduct if the value of land is decreased by a conserva- running sheet that I was listed to move to- tion covenant. gether, most of them relating to an independ- (2) If you enter into a conservation covenant ent valuer. I indicate to the chamber that I in respect of land you own and the mar- will not proceed with those. The substantial ket value is decreased because of the issue that the minister’s comments were covenant, you can deduct the difference addressing and the policy change that the Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11395

Democrats want to achieve through taxation instrument of trust solely for the purpose of legislation are contained within Democrat providing money, property or benefits to amendment No. 10, so I will just speak to that environmental organisations or related institu- one. tions. When people sell land they own to an The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- environmental organisation for less than its tor Hogg)—You have moved amendment No. market value, it provides the opportunity for 10 on sheet 1669. Is that correct? them to deduct the difference between the market value of the property and the actual Senator BARTLETT—Yes. sale price. Or, if they give that land to an The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—And environmental organisation or related authori- you are not proceeding with the others in that ty and retain the right to live on the land for bloc as listed on the running sheet? the remainder of their life and, upon their Senator BARTLETT—No, just amend- death, pass the ownership of the land over to ment No. 10. I will not proceed with amend- that environmental organisation or trust, ments Nos 1 to 6, 8, 9, 11, 12 or 17 on the again, the market value of the property can be Democrat sheet 1669 as per the running sheet. taken into account for tax purposes. Amendment No. 7, which I am not moving The second section enables deductions for either, was not listed there because it was a land affected by conservation covenants. duplicate. Establishing a conservation covenant on land The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—I am means, in broad terms, having a requirement told it should not have been. inserted into the actual land title to preserve Senator BARTLETT—The other ones particular parts of the land. This would were to do with providing an opportunity to usually protect the vegetation from being have an independent valuer as well as the cleared or impacted on, prevent buildings commissioner, which is a small issue that we from being constructed or preserve and decided not to proceed with. The substantial protect the creeks and features of the land. If issue is amendment No. 10, which basically you enter into a conservation covenant like adds an extra component to the act. As I said that with either a relevant trust or a govern- in my second reading contribution on this bill, ment authority, the decrease in the market some of the aims of what the government has value that occurs as a result of putting that done with this bill are laudable and the conservation covenant on your land is also Democrats support them. As Senator Hill able to be used for tax deductible purposes. indicated, the bill does broaden opportunities It is worth pointing out that the use of for taxation incentives for some conservation conservation covenants is not new. It has been related measures. In our view, it presents an used already throughout Australia to great ideal opportunity to extend that further in a effect—in some states more than others. The way that we believe will be at fairly minimal amendment lists various state based acts that cost to the public purse. In terms of savings conservation covenants currently operate to the public purse in the long term through under. In my own state of Queensland the improvements to our land quality and to our state government is moving to improve the record in the conservation of land, it would be operations of that process. As I have men- money well invested that, in our view, would tioned in this chamber before, the Trust for pay itself off many times over. Nature in Victoria is an excellent example of The amendment inserts two new sections a conservation trust established and recog- into the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997—I nised under state legislation. I have also men- think that is the correct one. The first relates tioned the operation of a large number of to rules for working out how much people can conservation covenants overseas, such as I deduct for a gift of land if it is given to an have outlined in this amendment. The sort of environmental organisation, fund, authority or work that the Trust for Nature has done has institution—as defined—or to a public fund been incredibly effective, not just with its established and maintained under a will or ongoing conservation outcome but also in 11396 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 terms of the savings to the public purse. It is unequivocal election promise to put adequate worth emphasising that point. It sits alongside controls on land clearing in Queensland. The the operation of national parks and publicly way the world works, for better or for worse, managed areas of land. I am not in any way is that financial matters often drive a lot of suggesting that these sorts of measures should human activity, including a lot of environ- replace national parks and areas of land mental destruction. Along with using meas- managed by state authorities, but resources at ures such as strict legislative and regulatory government level can go only so far in that controls and punitive measures, we all know area of activity. One of the major ongoing that providing incentives and encouraging impacts on the environmental value of our people through positive means to change land is the use humans put that land to and behaviour are often just as effective, if not the way they live on it. more effective. Where there are opportunities If we can provide mechanisms that encour- to adopt such an approach, I think we should age people to conserve and maintain the try to grasp them. environmental values of that land, it will be This particular amendment is significant in a massive saving down the track to society as that regard. I am not in any way suggesting a whole, both economically and environ- that it would solve the land clearing problem mentally. It would assist the landowners in Queensland overnight; it is more about themselves to be a part of conservation man- putting in place the mechanism for long-term agement. As I am sure all senators would be behavioural change. I would not want the aware, a major issue in Queensland at the state Labor government to see it as an excuse moment is land clearing, which is a very to back out of their election commitment to unfortunate and immensely environmentally introduce some proper land clearing controls, destructive activity. For economic reasons, but it is a mechanism that can add to that. It farmers feel it is a necessity to clear their has flow-on benefits across the country of land, predominantly for cattle grazing—for involving landowners themselves in conserva- those of you who might be pondering having tion, and it attaches some economic value to a steak for lunch. maintaining the health of our environment. Farmers are moving in that way because Often one of the big problems for people they believe there is some economic incentive who want to preserve the environment is that for them to do so. In many cases it is very there is no dollar value placed on things. marginal. There are the costs of clearing the There is a dollar value in raising a cow and land, and the return they then get on it from getting someone else to slaughter it and slice cattle or whatever is often very small—there it up, but there is often no dollar value in is a very thin margin of so-called profit maintaining the health of the land. Down the there—but there is immense environmental track we will all have to pay those hidden damage that the community as a whole has to ongoing costs of the environmental damage. bear for many years to come. We can provide Whether those costs are from repair of or tax incentives for people to maintain vegeta- reduced productivity from the land, or wheth- tion on their land, and these sorts of measures er they are from pollution and other flow-on can make all the difference in that regard, health costs, there are enormous in-built costs particularly when you are dealing with the that just do not show themselves to the marginal income making activities that are individual. driving a lot of the land clearing at the mo- This is only one mechanism. I should ment. For a very small initial impact on the emphasise that it is, in its own way, a small public purse, there is a massive environmental measure but it provides a good mechanism for and economic benefit for the country down a lot of that philosophy of providing incen- the track. tives—of giving economic value to conserv- An immediate and prominent example that ing land rather than just degrading it. In that is proving to be of immense difficulty for the sense I think it sends a positive message, as state Labor government in Queensland is their well as providing financial incentives for Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11397 people. It builds on systems that are already tive. I note that the CSIRO is one of the in place at a state level through conservation organisations proposing this approach. The covenants. It does not limit covenants to those CSIRO is an organisation of considerable mechanisms, so it is flexible enough for other standing—deservedly so—in the community, mechanisms for conservation covenants to be and it enjoys significant respect and support put in place, for example at the federal level. from the entire community. Some marvellous work on using the tax There has been an argument about the cost. system to encourage land conservation has Obviously this will extend the cost, but this been done by the CSIRO and others in the philanthropical theme that the Prime Minister conservation movement. There are examples is attempting to move the nation on was his of how this has been done in the US and idea. If the amendment that we will be mov- Europe to produce quite positive environment- ing later to reduce the allowable deduction to al benefits. I think Australia is lagging behind political parties is carried, we will actually be in that regard. There have been good propo- saving money, and that would go some way sals put forward by organisations such as the to offsetting the cost. Frankly, I think the CSIRO about ways that we can expand on the environment is a more important priority than fairly simple measure that is contained in this massive donations to political parties. Senator amendment, and on ways that we can move Bartlett makes the perfectly valid point that even further down the road of providing there may be some short-term direct costs that incentives for improving the conservation of are measured on budget, but we have to look our lands. This is a small measure, but I think at the savings—particularly longer-term potentially it is a very valuable one. I very savings—to the environment and the total cost much urge all senators, and in particular to the community, not just at the narrow costs government senators, to take it seriously. As that are measured on budget with savings to I said at the start, the immediate cost to the our environment, to the general economy and public purse would not be a major one, to our social structure as a whole. They are according to some of the work that has been not easy to measure, but I think it is legiti- done in this area by organisations such as the mate to point to that in this debate. For those CSIRO, but the long-term economic and reasons, Labor will be supporting the amend- environmental benefit would be immense. ment that has been moved and the amend- ments that will be moved later with respect to Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (12.14 this and other areas. p.m.)—Labor will be supporting the amend- ment moved and spoken to by Senator Bart- I have made these comments now because lett and subsequent amendments that will I do not want to waste the time of the Senate come later. I attended the Senate committee and repeat them when we get to the later hearings on this legislation, and it was obvi- amendments. ous that there was a glaring omission from the Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (12.19 philanthropic approach of the Prime Minister p.m.)—I am delighted to hear that. I also relating to the environment. congratulate Senator Hill for providing the The proposals that we are considering form opportunity for this legislation to be brought at least part of an effective approach to before the parliament. As he said, it is historic conserving the Australian environment. From legislation. It is marvellous for the environ- that point of view, we are happy to support ment that we are seeing recognition of the the amendment that is currently being con- patriotism of people who protect land, eco- sidered. I am disappointed that the Prime systems, wildlife, vegetation, coastlines and Minister, in his emphasis on philanthropy, desert that they own and want to see protected appears to have a very narrow approach in his in perpetuity. They put covenants on the land principles in this area. The environment is just or they donate it to organisations while they not on the agenda, it appears. This is one are alive, or they make provision in their wills glaring omission from the Prime Minister’s to ensure that the land will be protected as approach. We are happy to support the initia- part of the nation’s heritage. As far as human- 11398 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 built property is concerned, this has been in block of land which has rare and endangered place for many years, but when it comes to species, water courses, lagoons and wildlife the environment it has been missing. This is worth $1 million to a collection for permanent not so in the United States where, for de- protection for this nation’s heritage, you cades, if you donated land which had environ- cannot do that. Quite clearly, it is very sen- mental value, it was tax deductible. But we sible that the donor ought to be afforded that are catching up, and this legislation is going tax deductibility and congratulated for their to be of very big benefit to Australia’s envi- generosity. So congratulations all around. I ronment. feel that this is a marvellous change. It is I was involved with the establishment of the encouraging rather than discouraging people Australian Bush Heritage Fund in 1990, and, who do the right thing by the environment. although I am not directly involved with the Finally, let us look at what we have been organisation now, it has within the decade debating in the last couple of days in this become one of the most powerful forces in place. Just yesterday or the day before we Australia for protecting the environment. It were extending diesel fuel grants to people has been able to purchase critically endan- who get into bulldozers and drive through gered blocks of land containing rare and forests, knocking them down—in effect, a endangered birds, animals, orchids, fish and deductibility; an extension of largesse from trees from the Bega Valley—where only eight the government. In a way, that this very per cent of the original vegetation cover now positive moment for the environment has exists—to Erith Island in Bass Strait, to rare arrived makes me feel less bad that that coastal heathland in Tasmania and wildlife legislation went through with only my dis- habitat in Western Australia and, more recent- sent—with the support of the Democrats on ly, to woodland in Queensland where, as we that occasion, but it went through easily. know, there is an utter disaster taking place Before I became a senator, I came to Can- at the moment. Hopefully, moves by the berra to lobby for this effect, and people had Queensland government to cut across that will not even started thinking about it. But it is be in place before Christmas. here now. It is excellent legislation. With the So I congratulate the minister for the amendments it is going to be even better, and environment, Robert Hill. I am just sorry he I want to congratulate all those involved. is not here to hear me speaking these words— Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western and the roof has not fallen in. I also congratu- Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the late the Democrats and the Labor Party for Minister for Communications, Information moving to make some obvious adjustments to Technology and the Arts) (12.24 p.m.)— the legislation which are going to be import- Leading up to Christmas, and with that ant to donors who are doing the right thing by famous story, I feel like Mr Scrooge here this country. right now. It is so sad. I am very happy that The amendment that the Greens are moving Senator Brown is so happy and that Senator in addition—and, I think, the Democrats as Hill has made him so happy. I am sure well—to ensure that tax deductibility of Senator Hill is sitting in his office sipping a properties can be spread over five years by cup of tea and is riveted to the monitor. He the donor, as happens with cultural properties, could even be clicked onto the Internet, but is a really good one. As it stands under this I do not think so—I do not think the honour- legislation, if you give Blue Poles, which was able minister is an Internet clicker yet. I do worth $1 million, to an Australian collec- not know whether Senator Brown is being tion—and I am speaking theoretically; I know slightly humorous or a little bit sarcastic or he it has already been purchased and was not did not hear Senator Hill correctly, but we are given—or you give a painting worth $1 not supporting these amendments. million to a collection, you can spread your The most interesting thing about the debate tax deductibility of that painting over five in the last few minutes is that it has been such years. Under this legislation, if you give a a monument to the Labor Party’s policy Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11399 problems. Less than an hour ago we were would recognise that this government has informed by a Labor adviser that the Labor done more than any other government to Party were not supporting these amendments. encourage that in the past three years. Senator Sherry interjecting— If Senator Bartlett and Senator Brown come Senator IAN CAMPBELL—We were. to my great state of Western Australia, I Obviously, we can have a debate about that, encourage them—if they have not already but the Labor Party advised us that they were done so—to go to Paruna Sanctuary, which is not supporting these measures. We know as up in the Darling Range. It is an incredible a matter of history—and Senator Brown private initiative, funded almost entirely out would reinforce this—that throughout their 13 of the property of Martin Copley. I think he years in government they did not do this. I is actually a citizen of Great Britain. He is a am sure former Senator Walsh and former great character who spends about half his time Treasurer Keating probably would have in Western Australia. He has created this argued with Senator Brown as to the cost of fantastic sanctuary in the Darling Range—a these things—and this is why I feel a bit like phenomenal private initiative which has been Senator Scrooge today. It would be lovely to facilitated by this government. make Senator Brown happy. We try to do that Senator Hill came in here today and said, all the time—it is very hard—but it is nice to as the minister responsible and therefore on see that he has had this moment of happiness. behalf of the cabinet and the Prime Minister, But he should be happy about what Senator that the government is more than sympathetic Hill said. to these sorts of measures, has looked at the Senator Sherry might have been busy at the CSIRO work and other work that has been time trying to find a policy—trying to grope done in this area, and wants to put together an around for something that they believe in. integrated package. So it is disingenuous of Senator Hill did come in here. He put on the Senator Sherry to say that the Prime Minister record that the government is seriously con- is blind to this. The minister and the govern- sidering this whole policy. Maybe that is what ment have come in here and said, ‘We are Senator Brown is happy about. I think this going to bring’—to quote Senator Hill’s measure will get through. One hour and 15 words—‘a serious consideration to an inte- minutes ago it would not have got through, grated policy package of which these sorts of but it looks like it is going to get through. measures could form part.’ This amendment has the numbers on the floor These measures need to be costed. I guess of the chamber. But the government has said when you are in opposition you can just say: that it will not support it. I make it clear now ‘We didn’t do this for 13 years when we were that we will not call divisions on these issues. in government. We don’t know how much it As the Manager of Government Business in is going to cost.’ I guess that is a continuation the Senate, I personally regard calling divi- of Labor’s policy when they were in govern- sions when it is quite clear what the vote is ment. They did not really care very much and when the parties have made clear their about what anything cost. The record of that position a waste of debating time. was $10 billion deficits for nine out of their But I make it clear that the government is 13 years, high interest rates, high debt, high opposed to these measures for the reasons inflation, high unemployment. This is Senator Senator Hill put down. We regard these as Scrooge speaking, but you cannot just create important ideas. We regard encouraging any policy you want and ignore the cost, philanthropy in relation to giving land for which is just what the Labor Party have done conservation purposes as desirable. We think today. They have said, ‘We might pick up that can play an important part in a strategy some money on political donations.’ to encourage private landowners to use their The financial impact of the measures in this ownership and empower them to be part of bill unamended is estimated to come to about the national conservation and environmental $71 million in 2002-2003. We have no effort. I think Senator Brown and others costings whatsoever on the amendment that is 11400 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 about to be agreed to by the Australian Labor deductibility is an expense to the revenue and Party. The Labor Party will not be able to get that he would like to know where the money up and say that this will cost $71 million, is going. Even though the tax office and the $100 million or $200 million because they previous government never did that when they have no costings. They have decided at some were in government, the opposition think it is stage in the past hour or so, ‘This is a nice a good idea now. That is good. The opposi- idea. We have no idea how much it will cost. tion seem to be developing some sort of We might be able to claw back some of the policy. It changes from hour to hour, but at cost if you agree to an amendment on politi- least they are wrestling with the concept of a cal donations. But we do not really know how policy. They have stuck to their old policy of much it will cost.’ There would have to be no fiscal restraint. They have said, ‘If it is a one hell of a lot of political donations in a good idea, let’s do it and hang the expense. year to claw back $71 million. We’ll let the next generation pay. Put it on Senator Sherry—The $71 million is your the Beazley bankcard or, if Mr Beazley is not cost. the leader, Mr Crean’s bankcard. Hang the expense.’ Senator IAN CAMPBELL—The $71 million is the government’s estimates, the The issue I am responding to is Senator Treasury’s estimates and the tax office’s Sherry’s point that the PM and government do estimates of the measures in this bill. not care about it. We do care about it. We Senator Sherry—That’s right. have said we will develop an integrated policy approach and that this sort of mecha- Senator IAN CAMPBELL—Exactly. nism will be part of it. Senator Brown should Senator Sherry and the party he represents be rightly proud of the fact that it has made should come forward with some estimate as it onto the government’s serious policy to what they think is the value of these agenda. He will be upset that it will not get measures. through now. The government is not going to Senator Sherry—CSIRO says $2 million agree to these measures. So the strong likeli- to $4 million. hood of the decision of the Senate to support Senator IAN CAMPBELL—The CSIRO these measures is that the whole bill will be has not costed these measures, with all due set aside, which is not a threat or anything; respect. You would have to make an estimate that will be what happens. Senator Brown has as to how many people, for example, would been lobbying for this and dedicating himself decide that it is in their financial interest. to this sort of public policy measure at the They may be good environmentalists at Commonwealth level for a generation, for his heart—they are probably good capitalists at whole time in this debate, so he should feel heart as well—who may, for example, decide rightly proud that it has got to this stage. It is to hand over all of their property and receive now under serious consideration by the a life tenancy in return, put some covenants minister for the environment and ultimately on and gain millions of dollars worth of the government of Australia, as Senator Hill taxable benefits. has indicated historically here today. Senator Sherry—Are you filibustering? This measure is not going to make it today. Senator IAN CAMPBELL—No, I am not It is not going to make it into public policy filibustering. I am responding to two points. because we do not think the measures have One is that the government thinks that these had enough thorough consideration, costing sorts of measures have some merit. We think and analysing. Is this the best way to use the there should be an integrated, costed ap- Commonwealth’s resources? What if this does proach. You need to look at how you achieve cost a quarter of a billion dollars, hypotheti- the best outcome for the environment and cally? Is that the best way to spend a quarter conservation values within the limited finan- of a billion dollars? How do you ensure that cial resources of the Commonwealth. It was property owners are best encouraged by the Senator Sherry who earlier said that tax taxation law to gift properties? What balance Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11401 is there in the use of covenants? What about this particular piece of legislation? So we do the life tenancy issue? How do you do this? not see any particular problem in supporting How do you find the best policy balance? this at this point in time. We will be moving We do not think the approach that is taken an amendment to reduce the tax deductibility today on the floor of the Senate is the right of moneys to political parties. I did not say one. It could be a perfect approach, but we that it would save $71 million. I said there want to do it in a considered manner. Ulti- would be some saving that certainly would be mately we will bring forward a policy. Ulti- some offset for the cost of the measure that mately it will have the scrutiny of a Senate is being supported and appears likely to pass committee, no doubt. Ultimately, it will be here. put into a package of legislation if that policy Finally, I want to make a comment about receives the assent. So I will not add to the our advisers. I have spoken to both our debate. I am certainly the last person who advisers—very trusty, reliable, knowledgeable would seek to extend this debate. But it is individuals. Neither of them indicated that we very important that people understand where would be opposing this. We only got the final the government is coming from. Certainly amendments halfway through the debate so I Senator Brown seemed to be under some do not know where that information has come illusion that the government may be support- from. I think it is inappropriate to refer to ing this amendment today. We are not. private conversations with advisers. It is Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (12.36 inappropriate and it should not happen. The p.m.)—I am not surprised at the contribution conversation, as I am informed, did not occur. we have just heard. Here we are attempting Again, I think that was an inappropriate be cooperative, to get through this legislation comment and, frankly, irrelevant to the prior to 12.45— debate. Senator Ian Campbell—I am ready for the I am pleased that the non-government vote right now. parties have been able to correct a very Senator SHERRY—Good. I think what we obvious defect in the Prime Minister’s philan- have just heard could be classified as a thropic approach. If it is good enough for filibuster. But there are a couple of points that health, it is good enough for education, it is I have to respond to. good enough for a range of philanthropic endeavours in this country, and it is good Senator Campbell makes the point, ‘Well, enough for the environment. On behalf of the how can you support something like this Labor opposition, as I have said, we will be when you do not know the costings?’ If that supporting these amendments. is a valid argument—and I do not believe it is because, as I pointed out, CSIRO says $2 Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (12.39 million to $4 million—how on earth has the p.m.)—In response, I wish to make a change government costed the contents of the rest of to the amendments I have moved. On techni- this package and what sort of assumptions has cal advice, I need to make a slight change; it made? It is not a valid argument from that is, to delete part 4 of the first section, 30- Senator Campbell. 222, and part 3 of section 30-223. The points I have made still stand. The Leave granted. CSIRO have given us a costing. This was a glaring omission from the philanthropic Senator BARTLETT—Also, as a conse- approach of the Prime Minister as contained quence of that, I seek leave to move amend- in this legislation. Senator Campbell has as ments (1) and (2) as circulated on sheet 1677. much admitted that by acknowledging that the I understand this is necessary to enable the government will be looking at something like provision to operate as intended. this at some future date. Senator Hill has Leave granted. come in and said that the government will be looking at it. Why didn’t they look at it in Senator BARTLETT—I move: 11402 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

(1) Schedule 5, item 16, page 25 (line 20), after of what the Senate is able to do. It is not "section 30-15", insert "or by section 30-222 something that government should attack as or 30-223". inappropriate. It should not be suggested that (2) Schedule 5, item 21, page 27 (line 14), after we should just sit back and wait for the "section", insert ", or under section 30-222 or government to deliver an integrated package 30-223,". once they have developed it. I will say a couple of things regarding the substance of some of the contributions, These are self-contained, clear-cut amend- particularly from the government. Firstly, in ments. They do not preclude the government terms of costs, I do not think the Democrats developing a package of other measures down or the Senate are ignoring the costs. My the line. Hopefully they will be an incentive understanding is that the CSIRO have done for them to build a broader package of meas- some costings of measures such as these and ures, but to suggest that we should just wait indicated they will cost only $2 million or $3 for the government to act is, I think, million per year. The government, as I am misreading and misunderstanding the actual sure they would agree, have the resources to role of the Senate as a law making body. cost measures such as these and, given that Also, I think it is expecting rather too much these measures are going to pass through the in terms of the faith we are expected to put in Senate, I hope that they will use those re- the government to deliver on things. We have sources to cost them themselves. Maybe they delivered amendments here; we believe they can do it more accurately. are good ones. We believe that whatever costs there are to them will be far outweighed by I come back to the point that I hope, when savings in the future. I urge the government they do those costings, they will add in the to take that on board when they are consider- future savings—even purely in dollars and ing this legislation as it is finally amended. cents terms, let alone in terms of environ- mental benefits—of the improvement in land Consideration interrupted; progress reported. conservation that will occur as a consequence. MATTERS OF PUBLIC INTEREST I can outline lots of the costs of what we are spending now every day to fix up salination, The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT deforestation, erosion and many other conse- (Senator Chapman)—Order! It being 12.45 quences of land clearing, and they are well p.m., I call on matters of public interest. and truly above whatever the immediate cost Western Australian Liberal Party to the revenue might be from these measures. Whatever costing the government might say Senator KNOWLES (Western Australia) these measures have, I can guarantee that the (12.45 p.m.)—The reason I have sought to savings as a result will far outweigh them. make a statement today is based on a combi- The government also indicated it is better nation of factors. I have had to endure 14 to do these sorts of things as an integrated months of adverse media coverage. Most package. I welcome Senator Hill’s indication recently, there has been an article in the West that the government is looking at doing that Australian newspaper on 6 November 1999 and moving that way. I think all people will and a further article in the Australian on 7 understand that it is not necessarily the best December 1999 about my possible expulsion approach always for everyone just to sit back from the Liberal Party by a small committee and wait for the government to deliver on in Western Australia called the Appeals and things it is going to do. I should perhaps Disciplinary Committee. remind the government that the Senate has a I have not said anything during those 14 duty and a legislative role in terms of law months in the interests of the Liberal Party. making in this country. The government can However, it needs to be stated here that the put forward proposed legislation, as they have pursuit of me is in the face of the fact that the done, and it is for the Senate to consider that state executive of the party resolved over a legislation and to amend it or to add in year ago that the matter should not proceed. improvements. That is quite a legitimate part That decision was taken after I had provided Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11403 a comprehensive statement which they dis- That is plainly wrong. This so-called report cussed. Following that, the state council also was put together by two people, George Cash resolved that the matter should not proceed. and Julie Debnam, who are two members of what once was a seven-member committee. The West Australian article was written by The article says that there were originally six a journalist called Anne Burns and is about members. Wrong again. Noel Crichton-Browne and me. It was almost entirely incorrect in every way. The Austral- It needs to be noted that one person was ian article by Roger Martin implied that I was removed from the committee, Ric Mincherton, being criticised for not saying anything. I because he was a witness for Crichton- stress that I have not spoken to either journal- Browne in his case against me by making ist for the sake of the Liberal Party. However, allegations against me that were simply not I am now compelled to come into the Senate. true. Julie Debnam is one of the complainants, Crichton-Browne has now mailed the Burns but she too remained. Two other decent article across Western Australia because it is people resigned from the committee when highly favourable to him and critical of me. they discovered that it was a witch-hunt to get The point needs to be made that Anne Burns me. Immediately they resigned, it was clear has a very close personal relationship with that the committee was nothing more than a Crichton-Browne. I do not have the luxury of kangaroo court. Last June, when the chairman such a compliant journalist. I have, therefore, tried to bring the matter to a conclusion some after 14 months of silence, resorted to the eight months or so after the matter had start- Senate. ed, the remaining members removed a quor- um by walking out of the meeting. The I wish to set the record straight on the chairman then resigned. many statements and allegations contained in the article. It, like so many other articles This left three members, but only two of written by Burns, claims that I have apolo- those three—Cash and Debnam—put together gised for alleging that Crichton-Browne has a so-called report recommending my expul- made death threats against me. I have not. I sion. By this stage, the committee had no have apologised for, and I quote from the chairman and no quorum, but these two still apology: tried to get their fake report accepted by the . . . statements that I had made to various individu- party. The party refused. As distribution of als and on radio during 1995 [that] have been this document was highly restricted, one has construed by some— to ask who gave a copy of the report to et cetera. There is no person I have spoken to Crichton-Browne. I am told that he then went or interview I have done that says anything to state parliament and shopped it around to other than the fact that I sought police advice get someone to table it in the parliament. He on security matters following unidentified was successful. A former member of the phone calls in the middle of the night that Labor Party, Mark Nevill, obliged. contained threats. I said to the police that I Crichton-Browne then distributed this fake did not know the origin of the calls but that, report to virtually all senators and members given what had been going on in the party at and very widely across Western Australia. He the time, I wanted to know how best I could knew that the so-called report had no stand- ensure my safety. ing, but that did not stop him. According to I at no stage requested police protection, the article, Mr Nevill went on to accuse which has been a further claim of Burns. I David Johnston, the president of the party, of was also never given it. The article claims ‘nobbling the committee’. How preposterous! that I: David Johnston is a lawyer and a well- . . . narrowly escaped expulsion from the Party over respected person who as president has simply the affair when the majority verdict of a discipline sought to have this matter finalised appropri- committee inquiry found her guilty of four charges ately. He too is now being vilified by of conduct prejudicial to the Liberal Party. Crichton-Browne and his supporters. 11404 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

The article claims that Crichton-Browne’s embarrass the Premier and that he was not destruction came about because: going to identify me. I said that he had to be . . . he led rebel coalition senators across the floor joking when he said that he would not identi- to vote against then Treasurer John Howard’s fy me because the question even had a refer- retrospective legislation to outlaw bottom of the ence to my dog. He was determined to run harbour tax schemes. the question, but I begged him not to. The What nonsense! He made himself irrelevant rest is history. He and Kobelke have con- because all he ever did was stack branches tinued to try to damage me and the Liberal with the expectation that everyone else should Party ever since in relation to this matter. do the same. Burns claims that I: Burns claims that the committee found that . . . had already fallen out with him over her I had: performance as a WA senator. . . . conspired with Mr McGinty and had misled the I had certainly fallen out with him, but, as so party’s Senate pre-selection committee. many people who know Crichton-Browne Wrong. I have never conspired with Mr would attest, it was because I would not McGinty or anyone else in the Labor Party spend my time stacking branches at his and I told the preselection committee precise- direction. I told him that I wanted to do my ly what happened. The article claims, ‘She did parliamentary duties and that I did not have not lodge a defence,’ referring of course to the time to do his bidding. me. This suggests that I did not prepare one. If my so-called performance was so bad, Wrong again. My defence was presented to why then was I serving as deputy whip in the Crichton-Browne and he immediately sought Senate? Why have I chaired, by prime to have the matter settled because he did not ministerial appointment, deputy chaired or wish to have it made public. participated in so many inquiries into policy My defence details the shocking treatment matters on issues ranging from taxation to that I have had to endure from Crichton- social security, health, aged care, child care, Browne over many years. It contains many education and so much more? Additionally, credible witnesses who were witness to his if my performance had been in question, why behaviour against me. I have resisted coming was I was preselected to the No. 1 position on into the Senate over the last year and tabling the Senate ticket in 1992 at the height of it for all to see. This could have been done Crichton-Browne’s political attack against with complete immunity. The only reason I me? have not is to protect his former wife and The article claims that I told Mincherton children. However, if I have to endure much that I: more harassment from this man, I will be left . . . had received death threats from Crichton- with no alternative but to table that document Browne at her homes in Perth and Canberra and along with a copy of his statement of claim was under police protection. so that the facts will be there for all to see. All I can say to that is that Mincherton is Crichton-Browne obviously gave a copy of totally dishonest and manipulative and well my defence to the solicitor, Jack Courtis, who known for it in the party in Western Austral- is supposedly acting for the division and ia. His bias against me is unquestioned. branch that laid the complaints against me. I As for the role of Mr McGinty and Mr am aware that Crichton-Browne was most Kobelke, two state Labor members of parlia- annoyed that Courtis had passed the defence ment, their claims are pure politicking of the to the committee sitting in judgment on me. highest order. I unequivocally stand by my The committee members read it. When claim that I telephoned Mr McGinty and Crichton-Browne was informed of this, he asked him not to ask any question about me immediately issued instructions for it to be as the question that he was proposing to ask withdrawn from the committee. That leads me was factually incorrect by mentioning death to another question: why is it that Crichton- threats and police protection. He said that he Browne is running the case against me by wanted to run the question in an effort to instructing the prosecuting solicitor instead of Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11405 the complainants? I believe that to be a mittee. One can hardly wonder what conclu- serious abuse of due process by him exercis- sion they will draw this time. I am in a ing complete influence over the deliberations situation where I have witnesses sitting in and direction of the committee. I have asked judgment against me. the complainants to sign statutory declarations Many supporters have asked why I paid stating that they, and only they, have instruct- $20,000 to Crichton-Browne and have made ed Courtis and paid for his services. No such the observation that doing so gave the appear- declaration has been forthcoming. ance of guilt. To that I would say two things. The question of funding for the case against Firstly, given my time again, I would do no me is an interesting one because the division such thing. Secondly, I wish to make it crystal and branch that laid the complaints have to clear that I have not pleaded guilty to any- declare any such funding to the Australian thing; a casual observation of the events will Electoral Commission. They have a duty of illustrate that. Crichton-Browne commenced disclosure. If, by any chance, the solicitor is proceedings against me seeking damages and not charging for his time, then he too has a costs. He received no payment for damages duty of disclosure to the Australian Electoral and a meagre contribution towards his costs Commission. in comparison to what he sought. Once he Burns claims that I did not appear before saw my defence he did not wish to have it the party’s state council: made public. He knew it was true. As a . . . despite a request from Premier Richard Court consequence he did not wish the matter to to give an explanation to the party. proceed to court, where witnesses to his behaviour and attitude toward me would be Wrong. No such request has ever been made called to give evidence. to me by the Premier verbally or in writing. He is too interested and involved in running I most reluctantly agreed to the payment of the state and winning the next election. a contribution towards his costs in an effort, Interestingly, this article does not even which has clearly proven to be futile, to make an attempt to be balanced. While there protect the Liberal Party and to stop his 11- is a cursory mention of Crichton-Browne’s year harassment of me. I wanted to draw a record of domestic violence, why was there line in the sand and get on with my life and no mention of him being a convicted criminal my work without his constant harassment. He for fraud against the taxpayer? Burns clearly and his mates will obviously not allow that. allowed her relationship with Crichton- That is why I wish I had my time over again, Browne to influence the way in which she because I would never make such a judgment. wrote the article. While she states that I The next question that I am asked is: why refused to be interviewed for the article—that did I apologise? I already covered this earlier is true—I did provide her with a written when I mentioned the exact words of the statement which carried a rider stating that it apology. The other question is: why were the was not to be printed in part without my prior terms of settlement not made public until after written approval. What did she do? She the 3 October election last year? The answer printed the statement in part without my is that that is what Crichton-Browne agreed approval. to. It is worth also noting that, whenever I now come to the newly constituted com- Crichton-Browne or Burns have referred to mittee. It has, as three of its members, various interviews I did that form the basis of Mincherton, who is a proactive agitator his action against me, there have never been against me and who was removed from the full transcripts quoted. When one looks at the previous committee; and Cash and Debnam, full interviews, as I have detailed in my both of whom wrote the fake report recom- defence, they clearly give a different view. mending my expulsion. I have appealed that The time for me to explain in detail the these three members cannot be deemed to be level and extent of harassment and abuse I unbiased in their consideration of my case, have had to endure is just not available. As I but they have chosen to remain on the com- said before, that is contained in my defence 11406 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 and will be tabled in the Senate if this harass- both CASA’s effectiveness and the resulting ment continues. Had Crichton-Browne been public confidence and assurance. prepared, as I was, to finalise the whole matter and get on with his life, then I would I was further disturbed by the answers, or not have had to take this step. I am enor- indeed lack of answers, I received from mously grateful for the ongoing support of the CASA during the Rural and Regional Affairs Prime Minister; my leader and deputy leader and Transport estimates hearings last Wednes- in the Senate, Senator Hill and Senator day. I asked a series of questions about the Alston; my parliamentary colleagues; my training and checking of pilots. Although I am staff; members of the Liberal Party; and interested in the processes used in training friends and family. To them I say thank you. and checking all pilots who operate aircraft carrying fare-paying passengers, my questions I will, despite all of Crichton-Browne’s went specifically to the checking and training efforts, continue to work hard for the people of pilots employed by Qantas. of Western Australia as a senator and to provide Western Australia with strong repre- I asked the Director of Aviation Safety, Mr sentation. Mick Toller, about the checking of simulators in which pilots of high performance aircraft Civil Aviation Safety Authority: Audit train. I understood that these simulators had to be checked every 120 days in line with Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (12.59 Civil Aviation Order 45.0. Mr Toller said the p.m.)—According to its annual report, the checking of simulators varied, and I look Australian National Audit Office seeks to add forward to a more complete answer from him value to public sector performance and ac- on that point in due course. countability through the provision of objec- tive, professional and independent auditor I also asked whether pilots were checked advice. The ANAO rightly identifies the twice a year in line with the Civil Aviation parliament as its principal client. One of the regulation 217. Mr Toller confirmed that that key roles of the Audit Office is to undertake was the case although he said the period was performance audits by examining the utilisa- more likely to be 13 months than 12. Mr tion of resources, information systems, per- Toller also confirmed that pilots must be formance measures, monitoring systems and checked on-line or actually operating an legal compliance. This is important work. It aircraft in service once a year. Mr Toller told ensures that the parliament and the Australian me that the job of CASA was to check the taxpayers can see if public money is being Qantas pilots who ensure that their colleagues properly expended and public services are are up to the mark. He said CASA checked being provided in an efficient manner. How- the check captains to ‘ensure that they operate ever, when the Public Service is in delivery the system to a satisfactory standard’. Mr of a safe and efficient air transport system, Toller said that normally an airline would the need for a first-class performance from the develop a check and training program for its responsible agencies is not important, it is pilots in consultation with air safety authori- essential. Anything less potentially puts lives ty—in this case, CASA. He said that the at risk. program must contain performance targets and For that reason, Audit Report No. 19, tabled CASA audits the airline’s performance against at the end of last month—the performance these targets. audit of the aviation safety compliance divi- I asked Mr Toller whether the results of sion of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority— such checks would be held by CASA. I was both an important and a disturbing wanted to know whether CASA could at any document. The Audit Office investigation time tell whether an airline, in this case found an absence of quality management in Qantas, was meeting those benchmarks. Mr the performance of CASA’s safety compliance Toller responded by saying: functions. There was a lack of consistent adherence to safety procedures that put at risk That would certainly be on file. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11407

I then asked whether it would be possible to Toller agreed that if there were unqualified supply that information to the committee, to Qantas checking pilots approving their col- which Mr Toller replied that it certainly leagues to operate aircraft, all those pilots’ would. I asked Mr Toller about the establish- qualifications would be invalid. He said they ment within Qantas of a special unit to under- would all have to be retested and they could take pilot checking and training. Mr Toller not operate aircraft until they were. said that internationally airlines are encour- aged to set up operational quality programs I now have a copy of the terms of refer- and that system is then checked by the safety ence, protocols and topics for discussion that authority. I asked if any changes were made will provide the basis for the inquiry Mr to this system, like the abolition of this Toller has launched into the relationship special unit within Qantas, and whether those between Qantas and CASA. While the terms changes would be monitored and recorded by of reference appear sound, the matters ad- CASA. He said: dressed under the heading ‘Topics for discussion’ are disturbing to say the least. If They most certainly should be. the questions on this list are read in conjunc- He qualified this by saying he was not aware tion with both the findings of the Auditor- that this unit had been disbanded. He said that General in relation to air safety compliance if there was change, which was little more and the evidence from CASA at last week’s than a name change, there would be no need committee hearings, it appears that the admin- to notify the authority. But he said that such istration of aviation safety has all but col- a unit would need to be separate from the lapsed. operational side that it was auditing, and that The terms of reference are: Review of makes a lot of sense. exchanges between CASA and Qantas over Mr Toller said if there were new arrange- the last 12 months; looking at operating ments at Qantas, he was not aware of them procedures, training programs (flight and and that was why he had called for a special cabin crew), human factor issues, long haul report on the relationship between that airline landing recency and flight time limitations; and CASA. I then asked CASA whether the report on matters where CASA or Qantas Qantas testing pilots—that is, the pilots that appear not to have acted appropriately or in CASA checks—were in compliance with the the best interests of safety; identify CASA conditions of their licences. Mr Toller then regulatory procedures that could be improved. said: However, as I said, the issues raised under I do not know. the topics for discussion heading cause me I was not surprised that Mr Toller could not some concern. I hope the minister might be answer that question on the spot. However, it able to provide me with an explanation as was asked one week ago and has still not soon as possible. Point 4 of this list states in been answered. It should have been dealt with part: as a matter of urgency. Outline of the surveillance program during 1998. I then asked whether, if Qantas check pilots were not in compliance with the conditions of I would have thought that that program would their licence, they would be prevented from be well documented and well known both to undertaking any testing until they met those Qantas and CASA. Under the same point, the conditions. Mr Toller replied: brief asks: That is correct. Was a comprehensive program provided? Mr Toller said that CASA would not necessa- I am concerned that there is a need to ask rily know whether all Qantas pilots were such a question. The existence of such a properly licensed. He said the authority would program is fundamental to the whole surveil- to a large extent rely on Qantas for that sort lance system. I would therefore hope that a of information. This contradicts his earlier comprehensive program developed by Qantas evidence that CASA checks the checkers. Mr and approved by CASA is in place. 11408 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Point 6 of the document I have referred to how are changes to the QANTAS training and asks: Checking manual approved? What is the process for approving check captains and: within Qantas and is that process satisfactory? How are changes to syllabuses of training ap- I had assumed that this process would have proved? been clearly defined and in a comprehensive and: surveillance program agreed between the have there been any significant changes in the past airline and CASA. It would be disturbing if twelve months? that was not the case. I understand that such changes have to be Point 7 of the brief asks: formally signed off by the Director of Air How is cabin crew training monitored? Safety, Mr Toller. If that is correct, if Mr Toller has not signed them off, they have not I understand the monitoring of cabin crew is been approved. Again this is or should be a not discretionary, as this question suggests, statement of fact. I would hope that the but is specified in civil aviation regulations. minister might clarify the status of the docu- I go on to point 8 of the document, which ment and the basis on which these questions asks: have been formulated. Has the company submitted a compliance state- Page 99 of Audit Report No. 19 advises ment? that in 1997-1998 only 28 per cent and 45 per I assume that that question relates to the cent of CASA’s planned flying operations lodgement of a compliance statement as part surveillance activities were completed respec- of an application for the issuing or reissuing tively for the two major operators. The two of an air operating certificate. I understand operators are not identified in the report. that licences are generally issued for 12 Perhaps the minister might also be able to months, though, according to the recent advise me whether, in fact, that data relates to Auditor-General’s report on safety compli- Qantas and Ansett. Further, the report states ance, CASA is considering renewing licences that between July 1998 and February 1999 for up to 36 months, and compliance state- planned flying operations surveillance was ments go to the regulatory regime in which only 29 per cent and 14 per cent of the airlines must operate exactly to cover the previous year’s surveillance for the two regulatory conditions imposed on them by this operators. I understand that to mean 29 per regime and in doing so meet the conditions of cent of 28 per cent of the target and 14 per their licence. I cannot understand why there cent of 45 per cent of the target. Despite this would be a need to survey CASA officers and reduction in planned surveillance to February Qantas employees to establish whether such 1999, only 21 per cent and 37 per cent of a statement has been lodged. I would have planned flying operations surveillance was thought that the assistant director, aviation achieved for these two operators respectively. safety compliance, would be able to say in a I am advised that the second period, that is flash whether the largest airline in the country July 1998 to February this year, was to enable had lodged such a statement. CASA to get all the relevant data lodged for Nor should it be at all difficult to determine that period. CASA has argued that the intro- whether Qantas meets the conditions of its duction of a new audit system led to a reduc- licence, as would be detailed in a compliance tion in the surveillance effort, and that is no statement, if I understand the term correctly. excuse. Point nine asks: This data relates to planned surveillance by How often does CASA undertake a flight simulator CASA. This is not about good operators fidelity check? needing less scrutiny. It relates to the surveil- Again this should be a matter of fact, not a lance targets CASA sets itself. For the Senate matter of discretion on the part of officers and the travelling public to be satisfied that undertaking this work. Point 10 of the docu- the aviation system in this country is being ment asks: properly scrutinised requires someone to take Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11409 control of the administration of aviation safety I will not go into the details, but it is in Australia. In this case, that someone must extraordinarily degrading to the men and be the Minister for Transport and Deputy women, these youngsters, who have a reli- Prime Minister, Mr Anderson. gious avocation to find themselves in that circumstance simply for trying to maintain Tibet: Imprisonment of Monks and Nuns what they see as the truth. The fact is if the Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (1.12 p.m.)— secret police arrive and say, ‘Write a denunci- I have with me a report on my visit to Tibet ation of the Dalai Lama’ and they refuse to in July and then to Tibetan refugee establish- and do not sign it they are, as a minimum ments in Nepal and India last month. I will penalty, evicted from the premises and as a ask the Senate’s permission to table this maximum end up in jail. On the plight of report later in the day when members have nuns—and I have got this in the report—the had an opportunity to look at it. Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democ- racy in India quotes: We in Australia are in an ideal position to do something about the plight of six million Tibetan women have been subject to brutal repres- Tibetans who are in the world’s largest sion following the severe religious crackdown launched in 1996 and 137 nuns are known to have militarised colony. Tibet was invaded in the been expelled from the nunneries. Tibetan women, 1950s by the People’s Liberation Army of often nuns, continue to be arrested arbitrarily and China and it has been under the yoke of subjected to ill-treatment and torture while in Beijing ever since, with a massive abrogation prison. Of 1,216 known current political prisoners, of civil rights involved. More than one 295 are women and 11 female political prisoners million Tibetans have died as a result of that are serving more than 10 years. One woman, three months and 17 days pregnant, was kept standing in oppression. The oppression, while much more a cold room for 14 hours in a row the night of her finetuned by Beijing these days, continues. arrest while being interrogated. She told her In Lhasa, more than 1,000 monks and nuns interrogators that she was pregnant and feeling are in prison as we are here today. These are weak. However, the pleas were ignored and the questions continued. She miscarried her child in the young men and women who have done prison toilets shortly afterwards. Ngawang nothing violent, who would never have been Sangdrol, a Gari nun— arrested in Australia, who have simply called either for the freedom of their country or for Gari is a nunnery in the hills about three- the return of their spiritual and political quarters of an hour drive north-west of the leader, the Dalai Lama, from exile in India to centre of Lhasa. While I did not go into the Lhasa. nunnery for fear of reprisals after my visit, I saw the nunnery from the parking lot down in A third category of default which ends up front of it. This nun— putting monks and nuns into jail is a refusal is serving an 18-year sentence, the longest known to sign a denunciation of the Dalai Lama in sentence of any political female prisoner in Tibet. whichever nunnery or monastery they may be. The secret police are in these monasteries at This is the Centre for Human Rights report- the moment and re-education programs were ing. Since this report and since my visit to taking place while I was in Tibet. It needs to Tibet, her sentence has been extended to 21 be noted that great monasteries like Sera and years. It continues: Drephung in the northern outskirts of Lhasa, Originally she was arrested for taking part in a pro- which I visited, had 10,000 monks each in independence demonstration. She and 13 other nuns 1959 when the Chinese Liberation Army, so- had their sentences extended after recording pro- called, arrived. The complement in each place independence songs in prison— can now be numbered between 100 and 300. for singing about their country in prison— The 20,000 people who have been evicted In March 1996, Ngawang Sangdrol was amongst have been evicted against their will and in a number of female prisoners who refused to tidy appalling circumstances and, as I said, a her cell, apparently as a protest against the Panchen number of them are in jail where torture has Lama re-education program being conducted in the been the order of the day. prison— 11410 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 that is, a requirement that the nuns denounce recognise that Tibet is part of China, but that the true Panchen Lama, the second most is not the case. important religious figure in Tibet. As I said to the ambassador, the independ- They also refused to stand up on one occasion ence or otherwise of Tibet is in the hearts of when a Chinese official entered the room. She was the Tibetans. I laud the extraordinary bravery sent to stand in the rain as punishment and of those young people who, seeing a western- Ngawang Sangdrol called out, "Free Tibet". er standing in a temple or in a street in Lhasa, For that patriotic defiance her sentence was spoke to me in their halting English and told extended for a further three years and as I me consistently two things: we want our have said it has gone to 21 years. Here is an country’s freedom and we want the Dalai extraordinary person. Here is a remarkable Lama to return to Lhasa. woman. I will not go into the details of the I have asked the ambassador whether he other treatments given to female prisoners in would arrange for a trip back to Tibet for me these jails, but it is horrific. to see the country through the eyes of China. In other circumstances in other countries, That is not a difficult thing because nearly this woman would be getting national awards every other MP who goes to Tibet must fulfil and accolades. But, instead, the world has certain obligations, which involve China being turned its back on her, her fellow prisoners the tour guide. I hope that opportunity arises and her country, and is lined up to fete because I do not seek, and have not sought, Chinese leaders, both inside and outside to be one eyed about this. I have to report to China. I met the ambassador, Richard Smith, the Senate that I find the plight of the Tibet- in Beijing after my visit to Tibet, and we ans an extraordinary blot on the civilised talked about his visit to Drachi prison, where, thinking and actions of the global community indeed, the nun I have just spoken about at the end of this century. languishes today. He took tea in the garden I went to Nepal and India and visited with the criminal—that is, the governor of the refugee camps and was amazed to find, prison; it is the innocents on the other side of among other things, that the flow of refugees the wall. But the world prefers not to look at south over the Himalayas is increasing. It will this. be up to 4,000 this year. These people, who I get the Chinese literature on Tibet, includ- are supposed to love the motherland of China ing a glossy journal called China’s Tibet.It but are walking out on it from their own is full of up-beat stories about economic country, do not do so at the drop of a hat. advancement. The point the Dalai Lama has They are not allowed passports. So much for made is that the economic inflow of money citizenship of China. They cannot leave with to Tibet is nowhere like the outflow through a valid passport. the resources, the forests, the mines, the When they do go to Nepal they choose hydro-electricity that is being drained out of winter, because that is when the raging rivers Tibet. But all that aside, we, as parliamenta- coming down out of the Himalayas are frozen rians, have an obligation to at least know and they can walk across them. There are about Tibet. It is the world’s biggest military- three major passes they use to cross the occupied country and, extraordinarily, it is Himalayas; one is near Mount Everest. They occupied by a communist regime. It is the climb through the snows in winter. I ran into West that succours the communist regime in a young man in Kathmandu who is now Beijing and ignores the theistic and now learning how to paint traditional Tibetan art— democratically elected in-exile regime of the something he did not have access to in his Tibetans. own country—and he lost both his legs to I spoke to the Chinese ambassador yester- frostbite. He was caught in a blizzard in the day, and I thank him for his visit because we pass. His four companions lost their lives. Yet had a good exchange. He used the fact that the government in this country does not countries around the world do not oppose the recognise people from Tibet as refugees Chinese occupation of Tibet and, in fact, because that might upset Beijing. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11411

I saw in Nepal and India the hundreds of Finally, Tibet will be an item on the agenda children who are being smuggled out of Tibet. while I am in this parliament. I use this Their parents want them to have a Tibetan opportunity to ask the government, our education; indeed, they want them to have government, to play a much more prominent some form of education. Time and again I ran role in the interests of Tibet and Tibetans and into young girls, 16 and 17, who had never their thirst for freedom in the future. (Time been to school in Tibet. Why not? Among expired) other reasons, one has to pay a fee to go to school—up-front fees in a communist country, Rural and Regional Australia: if you do not mind! Those who cannot pay Development the fees are the poorest. Who are the poorest Senator COONAN (New South Wales) in their own country? It is the Tibetans. Who (1.28 p.m.)—There is a certain sense of comes last on the opportunity list? I guess it occasion in speaking on a matter of import- is the girls. But to see the happiness of these ance in the national parliament’s final sitting youngsters, having got out of the country, is week of the twentieth century—in fact, the extraordinary, because at last they have an final sitting week of the millennium. The cusp opportunity in life, and their parents are of the new millennium is about as auspicious having them smuggled out. an occasion as you could want to reflect on our nation’s achievements of the past and the One 16-year-old girl said, ‘I was with my challenges of the future. It has been a mo- brothers and two monks came along and said, mentous century for this nation, commencing "Go and go now." I did. I did not even have with the birth of federation. It has seen us time to go home and tell my mum and dad commit our troops during two world wars and and here I am, I do not know what mum and in other regional conflicts, including Korea, dad think. I do not know whether they know Vietnam and the Persian Gulf. I am here, but I am here now to get my Our troops have defended our freedoms and Tibetan education.’ She had to decide whether defended those unable to help themselves, she would go into the usual education stream, such as in the current deployment of Austral- or become a nun herself. She has the oppor- ian troops in East Timor. These encounters tunity to do that now. She effectively had no have undeniably defined our national identity. such opportunity and no schooling under the We are proud of the Anzac spirit, a spirit Chinese regime. There are thousands of such characterised by bravery, loyalty and mate- youngsters in Nepal and India. ship. This is the spirit by which Australian A word needs to be said, because there men and women have shed their blood to have been tough times in the past, for the protect the country they love—Australia—and growing attitude of assistance by the Nepali their fellow Australians. It is a spirit which government, as well as by the Indian govern- saw a lone soldier, Private Simpson, and his ment in these circumstances. I was able, donkey braving enemy fire to rescue wounded through the good offices of our ambassador mates in that fateful Gallipoli landing. There in Kathmandu, to meet the Nepali Minister is also the great sporting tradition that has for Home Affairs to try to get the thousands developed over the years. Over the past of Tibetans in Nepal travel documents, so century, Australia has produced superb sports they can go to countries like Germany and men and women, and I am sure that this Britain—travel documents like those afforded prowess will be evident in the year 2000 at to Tibetan refugees in India. He gave me a the Sydney Olympic Games and the good hearing. This is good for business for Paralympic Games. Nepal as well, because the Tibetans make Australia has also been shaped this century carpets and export them to the West, but the by the patterns of migration that have come business people in Nepal have great difficulty to our shores. Australia has been a great getting out to make the deals which will migrant nation, advantaged by the intake of allow this industry to bring an income to the skill, labour and social diversity. Whether in Tibetan community. the days of the gold rushes or Queensland 11412 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 cane growing, or our more recent past in the people most affected and discuss the issues 1950s that gave us the mighty Snowy Moun- with them. tains Hydro-Electric Scheme, migration has This past decade has seen the divide be- shaped our multicultural character. The tween the city and the bush widen to a chasm. question, however, remains as to what level Not only is it a divide between city and of immigration is in the national interest. Our country, but also between inland and coastal population is unlikely to grow sufficiently areas, between the sun belt and the rural belt without immigration to take advantage of and between large and small regional centres. global and regional opportunities, nor will it In short, it is between those who have pros- be conducive to maintaining our national pered and those who have missed out on the security. We do need to look to a pattern of benefits of massive technological change and migration over the next decades that will deregulation. foster properly thought-out national goals. The impact on the bush has been character- However, perhaps the most enduring sym- ised by political protest and socioeconomic bol of our nation is the Australian bush. For dislocation. The trend for Australia to become more than 150 years, Australia has ridden on two nations flies in the face of our egalitarian the sheep’s back. The bush has provided spirit. It is simply unAustralian to tolerate the Australia with a wealth of verse, culture, alienation of some Australians from others. inventions and history. Bush legends have The volatility of rural and regional Australia permeated Australia’s identity and Australians is deeply troubling. It has exercised a great relate to these whether they are based in the deal of my time and attention this year in my city or the outback. The bush legend and ‘Senate Goes Bush’ series of visits to rural notions of the bushie with his swag are part and regional Australia. These visits reflect my of Australia’s psyche. It is part of what belief that we do need to go bush if we are to Australia is today. The bush spirit is the really know the hardships and, indeed, the Australian spirit. strengths of rural and regional Australia and if we are to have any hope of reconnecting Australia has reached the end of this centu- with country Australia. ry in good shape. We can be justifiably proud In each place I visited it was clear that the of our secure democracy, tolerant society and people of rural and regional Australia have vibrant economy. But along with our prosperi- been doing it tough. As recent election results ty and progress is the growing realisation that attest, they also feel disillusioned and disaf- not all Australians have shared equally in this fected with the political processes that impact good fortune. As a nation, perhaps the great- upon their daily lives. Parts of rural and est challenge we face is to bridge the gap regional Australia have been hurting. Not only between those who prosper and those who have the regions been fighting drought and have missed out. Nowhere is this need more shifts in population, but the regions face pressing than in parts of rural and regional trying to overcome the tyranny of distance Australia. when accessing services that those in the city I have spoken often this year on issues take for granted. relating to rural and regional Australia in this However, it has become abundantly clear to chamber. The themes have varied from youth me that rural and regional Australia does have unemployment to regional development and the capacity to regenerate itself so long as the living standards in rural and regional Austral- conditions are right. Part of the reconnecting ia, policy positions that impact on the bush process is that the government is addressing such as national competition policy, and the the sectoral needs of regional Australia. A impact of agencies seemingly beyond the suite of programs is designed to turn around control of government such as the World the geographical disadvantage in this vast Trade Organisation. These speeches have land. There are no quick fixes, but sustained reflected journeys that I have taken within my effort, understanding and increased expendi- home state of New South Wales to go to the ture are helping to address the balance. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11413

Bridging the gap between the haves and the proposal as part of the rural summit to get have-nots may well be the most important some help from the big end of town, collo- policy challenge we face. Any regeneration quially speaking, in setting up a rural trust is and development of rural and regional Aus- a significant step in bridging the gap between tralia must also grapple with the kind of the haves and the have-nots. More import- framework that best suits the purpose. Despite antly, it recognises the moral obligation we the splendid initiative of the Regional Summit have to include rural and regional Australia in and our desire to recreate the securities of the the nation’s prosperity. If we fail to do this, past, I suspect that we have not yet asked we diminish our achievement as a successful ourselves what rural and regional communities nation. of the future will look like. What indeed is Last week, the Prime Minister chaired the our big picture? first meeting of the government’s business In a recent ABC Country Viewpoint broad- and community initiative to promote the cast, the following questions were asked: does notion of a social coalition. It brings together the big picture envisage a network of regional the resources of the government, the private centres that are just smaller versions of our sector, individuals and the Australian business state capital cities or does the big picture community. Clearly, an integrated approach envisage a network of services that are virtual will maximise our chances for rural and and accessed only through the Internet? Does regional renewal. It will also be necessary, I the big picture envisage millions of hectares suggest, to carefully consider the impact of of plantations providing carbon credits for decisions imposed on Australia by global multinational corporations? Does the big organisations such as the WTO. picture include the old vision of a food bowl No-one will deny that trade is the lifeblood for the rest of the world? Whatever policy of this country and we need to keep our mix is used, an issue for the government is to strategy under review. We cannot afford to identify and promote strategic investment in drop the ball on this issue in Australia. As a the future of the nation that will see the country that overwhelmingly relies on exports growth of prosperous, well-serviced regions. for our survival, we must continue our partici- There is a political divide, of course, on pation in the WTO, but we must also keep how to achieve this. Experience has demon- our strategy in doing this under close scrutiny. strated that a top-down attempt to establish The clear lesson from the Seattle round is major regional centres is unlikely to succeed that people affected by WTO decisions want unless there is significant local leadership and to have a say in matters that affect them. The community support. This approach also protests that we all saw on our televisions and ignores the need of those in smaller communi- read about in newspapers were not as much ties who are unable, because of geographic about global free trade, I suggest, but rather isolation, to access the services of major the way in which this is pursued by the WTO, centres. An enduring impression that I have seemingly without regard to the impact on a taken away from the Senate Goes Bush visits local community. The dispute settlement rules is that people of rural and regional Australia are opaque and in need of reform. It is little do not want hand-outs; what they want is a wonder that those on the receiving end of hand up. This means that there is a leadership adverse decisions are often puzzled by and role for government to assist local communi- invariably angry with decisions they do not ties to assist themselves, to identify their understand. The decision against Australia on strengths and weaknesses and, indeed, to find the importation of uncooked salmon products their own way forward. is simply a case in point. It is up to all of us in government, in the Notwithstanding the matters that I have private sector, in unions, in regional develop- mentioned today in this matter of public ment organisations and local councils to find interest debate, I must say that I am buoyed a way for regional communities to identify by the signs of regeneration in rural and and harness their potential. The government’s regional Australia and confident that the 11414 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 innate decency of our fellow Australians will per cent speak an indigenous language, or lan- see us face the new millennium with both guages even, and have a very poor or limited hope and resolve to meet these challenges. I understanding of English. In 1997-98, Abo- would like to take this opportunity to wish all riginal people made up 70 per cent of people of my colleagues, the clerks, the Senate staff who fronted the Northern Territory’s court and Hansard, who serve us with such distinc- system. In the same period Aboriginal people tion throughout the year, the very best Christ- made up more than 50 per cent of patients in mas and a New Year filled with promise. the Northern Territory’s hospital system. In contrast, non-English speaking background Aboriginals: Interpreter Service Territorians—those from overseas non-English Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) speaking countries—made up only 8 per cent (1.42 p.m.)—I rise to speak in this debate on of the Northern Territory’s population. How- matters of public interest to raise the need for ever, when dealing with the judiciary, the an Aboriginal languages interpreter service in health system or government bureaucracies, the Northern Territory. In these days of NESB Territorians have 24-hour access to modern travel it is not unusual for many of us free government provided interpreter services. to find ourselves in countries around the If you are Chinese, you can; if you are globe, for business or pleasure, where English Laotian, you can; if you are Greek or Spanish is not the national language. Luckily for those you can. Off the top of my head I think about of us who speak English, it has become the 150 languages are catered for. That is only most widely spoken language in the world fair. Most reasonable people would consider and in most places it is relatively easy to find that it is only fair that non-English speakers someone who speaks some English. However, have access to interpreter services. most of us have found ourselves at one time or another in a situation where we do not However, if you happen to be an indigenous speak the local language and nobody seems Australian in the Northern Territory with no to speak a language that we can understand. or limited English, the situation is vastly Some of us may have even found ourselves different. Aboriginal people in the Northern in a situation where we have had to deal with Territory are not automatically provided with government bureaucracies in those countries interpreter services to help with language or seek medical treatment from a local doctor difficulties in accessing any community or hospital or even have had to deal with services. Of particular concern is the lack of police or perhaps a local court—environments Aboriginal interpreter services to allow them where nobody seems to speak a language we to access health and legal services. It is can understand and the proceedings are not outrageous but true. understood by us. It is a frightening and dis- orienting experience, not being able to under- Over 20 years ago Aboriginal linguist stand what is being said and being unable to Gloria Brennan wrote a report investigating make yourself understood. the need for an Aboriginal interpreting ser- vice, concluding there was a real and urgent For a large percentage of Aboriginal Terri- need for such a service. Finally, 18 years torians—and I am sure elsewhere in Australia later, an Aboriginal languages interpreter where we find indigenous Australians from a service was trialled in the Top End over a six- traditional background—the problems of a month period. Focusing predominantly on lack of understanding in the court system, the health and legal services, the trial addressed health system or government bureaucracies is the following four key issues: whether there a regular occurrence, often with dire conse- existed a need for such a service; the feasi- quences. Perhaps it is important to place some bility of establishing a permanent service; the statistics on the record so we have a picture most effective means by which a service of what we are dealing with here. might run; and how much it was likely to Aboriginal people in the Northern Territory cost. The report, titled Executive Summary make up about 27 per cent of the population. Northern Territory Aboriginal Languages Of these people it is estimated that about 75 Interpreter Service Trial Evaluation Report, Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11415 was circulated to members of a working party The Northern Territory Government should estab- looking at Aboriginal interpreter services and lish an Aboriginal interpreter service and that the other proponents of Aboriginal interpreter establishment of the service should be given the highest priority. services throughout Darwin. The findings of the draft report were very Not only that, Ms Lawrie stated that the lack clear. It highlighted the need for an Aborigi- of Aboriginal interpreter services in the nal service and it recommended that it be Northern Territory is discriminatory, contra- administered through the existing Northern vening both the federal Racial Discrimination Territory Interpreter and Translator Service Act of 1995 and also the Northern Territory’s (NTITS), which would be both cost effective own Anti-Discrimination Act of 1992. and consistent with the government’s position Over the years the Northern Territory on the mainstreaming of service delivery to government’s response has been that an Aboriginal people. Aboriginal interpreter service would be too In May 1998 a final report was published expensive. If they are not prepared to accept by the Northern Territory Attorney-General’s the argument of justice and equity in provid- Department, titled Trial Aboriginal Languages ing such a service, they should consider the Interpreter Service—Evaluation Report. How- economic arguments in favour of an Aborigi- ever, the integrity of the published report has nal interpreter service. Clearly the provision been questioned by members of the working of properly trained legal and medical inter- group and proponents of an interpreter ser- preters would save far more than the cost of vice. What happened has been explained by such a service by reducing court delays, a member of that working group, Mr Russell retrials and incorrect diagnosis and/or treat- Goldflam. He said: ment in our hospitals. The draft report, which clearly recommended the A study by Dr Peter Collins for the North- establishment of the nation’s first Aboriginal interpreter service, never saw the light of day and ern Territory’s Office of Aboriginal Develop- was replaced by a watered-down version several ment in 1995 in fact pointed out that the months later, which was prepared and published introduction of an Aboriginal interpreter without involvement of members of the Working service would be very cost effective. In the Group. health sector a properly funded interpreter Interestingly enough, even though they were service will lessen the potential for claims invited to do so, the Northern Territory against medical negligence, misdiagnosis, Attorney-General’s Department did not ad- readmissions and so on. In the legal setting dress this matter as part of the Northern the savings for less court and police time Territory government’s submission to the would be enormous. The lack of an Aborigi- inquiry into the provision of an interpreter nal interpreter service is placing enormous service in Aboriginal languages which was pressure on our court systems in the Northern conducted by the Northern Territory govern- Territory. ment under the auspices of the then NT Anti- Not long after Dawn Lawrie’s report was Discrimination Commissioner, Dawn Lawrie. released the federal Minister for Aboriginal In February this year, Dawn Lawrie, who Affairs, Senator Herron, was reported as was the then NT Anti-Discrimination Com- saying that Aboriginal people should take missioner, began a public inquiry into the some responsibility for such a service and that provision of interpreter services in Aboriginal ATSIC should provide the funds for it. The languages. It attracted wide public interest minister’s comments say a lot about his with submissions received from the govern- support for the Aboriginal people in the ment, the judiciary, the legal, health and Northern Territory and the services they need. community service providers. Handing down As the Reverend Jim Downing succinctly her report some five months later, after stated in response to Senator Heron’s com- considering nearly 100 written and oral ments later in a letter to the Northern Terri- submissions, Ms Lawrie concluded that: tory News: 11416 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Has he . . . or any other Government Minister ern Territory towards the holy grail of state- suggested that the Turks, Greeks, Italians, Vietna- hood, yet he is not prepared for the Territory mese, and all the other racial groups provided with to meet its responsibilities regarding the equal a 24 hours interpreter service should pay for their service? No it is the sort of service a government treatment of Territorians. Last week the should provide. former Anti-Discrimination Commissioner, Dawn Lawrie, in responding to these com- At this point I repeat an earlier point I made: ments by the Chief Minister, said what a lot that is, in the Northern Territory there is full- of people in the Northern Territory are be- time free interpreter service available to coming increasingly inclined to think. She people from non-English speaking back- said, ‘Denis Burke is a national disgrace’, and grounds, but not if you are Aboriginal. she is right. A recent incident, however, which received much media attention, highlights what can I conclude my remarks by saying that the happen and has happened due to the lack of debate over the introduction of an Aboriginal an Aboriginal interpreter service. Recently at interpreter service is not about whether people the Royal Darwin Hospital a young Aborigi- should speak English. It is about what the nal woman was sterilised without understand- reality is now and what impact it is having on ing that the procedure was permanent. Tradi- many Territorians. This is something Denis tionally the Northern Territory government Burke does not want to seem to grasp; that is, has relied on either family members or friends that a large percentage of Territorians are who may speak English to translate between being discriminated against. They are denied patients and staff. However, they are not a basic service that is offered to all other non- trained interpreters. There is no guarantee that English speaking Territorians. they may be around when needed, there are cultural constraints on them in explaining Aboriginal Territorians need an Aboriginal certain matters, and they do not necessarily interpreter service and they need it now. understand the procedures involved. The chief Hopefully in the future, non-English speaking minister’s response to the media attention Aboriginal people will be as fluent in English given to this revelation of the young woman as they are in their own languages, and it being sterilised without her consent was that would be an advantage to them if they were. he rejected the need for an Aboriginal inter- But at the moment that is not the case, and it preter service and said: needs to be addressed. There is simply no to my mind (that) is akin to providing a wheelchair excuse for the Chief Minister of the Northern for someone who should be able to walk. Territory not to introduce an Aboriginal interpreter service immediately. He is directly Speaking in parliament about translators, he responsible for the consequences of not doing went on to say that it was a disgrace that so. Aborigines still needed them. His comments would almost be laughable if they did not I want to mention the names of some reflect his obvious lack of humanity, his lack people involved in legal and health issues in of understanding of the cultural principals the Territory. They include the Supreme Court involved and his lack of understanding of the Judge, the Hon. Justice Dean Mildren; the principals of justice in our legal and health Director of Public Prosecutions, Rex Wild system. QC; the recently retired Hon. Justice William While Mr Burke has previously acknow- Kearney; the Director of Legal Aid, Richard ledged there was a need for an Aboriginal Coates; the Director of the North Australian interpreter service, he said it should be paid Aboriginal Legal Aid Service, Gordon for by federal government funding. Obviously Renouf; the Director of Anglicare, Peter he does not consider the introduction of an Fisher; Dr Ilona DeBella, from the Royal Aboriginal interpreter service a high priority Darwin Hospital; Jackie Vincent, who is the for his government. It is somewhat ironic chairperson of the Katherine Aboriginal really. On the one hand, he considers himself Language Centre; and Dr Sam Heard. The list to be the great helmsman steering the North- goes on and on. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11417

Why have I mentioned them? Because they flip-flop on everything and one day you argue all support the introduction of an Aboriginal on one side of the street— interpreter service. Why is it that the leaders in the Aboriginal legal and health areas can The PRESIDENT—Senator, address your see what is so blindly obvious, but the Chief remarks to the chair, not across the chamber. Minister, Denis Burke, will not allow the Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam Northern Territory to meet its responsibilities President. The trouble is, as I was saying, that by establishing immediately such a service? if you do not believe in anything, if you do I firmly believe that the Chief Minister, Denis not stand for anything, if you do not know Burke, should be held personally accountable where you stand on an issue, you run contra- for what happens as a result of the lack of an dictory lines, which we have just seen from Aboriginal interpreter service in the Northern Senator Shayne Murphy. We are bringing in Territory. a very fair tax system which will be of benefit Sitting suspended from 1.56 p.m. to to charities, of benefit to large and small 2.00 p.m. business, of benefit to taxpayers, of benefit to families and, particularly, of benefit to those QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE on pensions and benefits. We have a tax reform program; we want to make sure Goods and Services Tax: Charitable Australia has a tax system which will take us Organisations into the new millennium and which is fairer Senator MURPHY (2.00 p.m.)—My and more equitable and which will better question is to the Assistant Treasurer, Senator enable Australia to compete on world mar- Kemp. Does the Assistant Treasurer recall his kets—in other words, a tax system which is own answer yesterday when he said: the world’s best practice. Charities can structure their activities to take account of individual fundraising efforts, if that is You ask such a question because you have the way they wish to go. Charities will undoubtedly no philosophy, you have no views, you have take every advantage they can under the law, as the no policies. I ask the Labor Party to work out law is written, and that is what we would expect with their colleagues whether they are worried them to do. about the GST affecting charities or are they If the government really wanted to help worried about charities escaping the GST. Just charities why are they not just taken out of get your lines straight. It shows the appalling the punitive GST net instead of encouraging leadership the Australian Labor Party has both them to do everything they can under the law in the other chamber and in this chamber that to avoid the Howard-Lees GST? Wasn’t one you cannot get your lines straight on this of the government’s main claims for introduc- particular issue. ing the GST that nobody could escape paying Senator MURPHY—Madam President, I their fair share? Isn’t the government now ask a supplementary question. One thing we giving the green light to individuals and have worked out on this side is that this businesses who under the law may be able to minister does not and cannot answer ques- avoid or minimise paying the GST? tions. But the Assistant Treasurer might be Senator KEMP—What an astonishing able to answer this supplementary. In regard question from Senator Murphy—a truly to charities being able to ‘structure their astonishing question. All the Labor Party activities to take account of individual fund- complaints over the last week or so have been raising efforts’, can the minister outline that a GST is being imposed on aspects of exactly what restructuring charities will be charitable works. That has been your com- able to do to avoid the Howard-Lees GST and plaint over the last week. Now Senator Mur- at what further cost to the charities? For phy is worried that charities are going to example, will charities now have to set up avoid the GST. Get real! Where is the Labor ABC Charities (Lamington Drive) Inc., Party coming from on any issue? It beats me. followed by ABC Charities (Gala Evening) Because you do not believe in anything you Inc. and maybe even ABC Charities (Money 11418 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 for GST Compliance Costs) Inc. in order to appointed to look after the interests of rural remain under the GST threshold? and regional Australia, in the regional services Senator KEMP—It goes from bad to worse area. My colleagues Senator Troeth, Mr with you, Senator Murphy. You are good at Truss, Mr Tuckey and I have concentrated on fly-fishing—no-one in this chamber argues things that will help regional Australia. that. You are probably the champion fly- We have acknowledged that a lot of good fisher, Senator. But, frankly, this question? things have happened in rural and regional We are providing flexibility to charities—that Australia but that progress has not been even is what we are doing. This means that pie across the board. We are aware that there are drives, lamington drives, cake stalls, Christ- patches of rural and regional Australia which mas cake sales and all of those sorts of things need further attention. But we have focused will not come into the system unless the the attention on rural and regional Australia. particular charity has a turnover on those In fact, most of Australia now understands projects of over $100,000. It is perfectly that we have to look more closely at rural and straightforward. Will charities want to restruc- regional Australia. Business, state govern- ture? Charities will obviously make a choice. ments and the federal government do—it Charities will work out what suits the particu- seems all do except the Australian Labor lar charity. This is exactly what charities Party. They have absolutely no policies on wanted. It might not be what Shayne Murphy regional Australia. They have done no work wants, but this is what charities wanted and towards those policies. All they have done we have delivered to them in spadefuls. when talking about rural and regional Austral- Rural and Regional Australia: Initiatives ia is carp and criticise the good things that we have done. Senator LIGHTFOOT (2.06 p.m.)—My question is to the Minister for Regional Madam President, you will remember that Services, Territories and Local Government, in the last 12 months the Labor Party appoint- Senator Ian Macdonald. ed someone who was going to be the saviour of the bush, a high profile Labor person— Senator Conroy—Macca! Macca! well, she had been for a little while—who The PRESIDENT—Order! That sort of was going to really fix regional Australia behaviour and shouting is absolutely unintelli- from the Labor Party point of view. What gible and unintelligent. happened? She was sacked during the year Senator LIGHTFOOT—I can only put it because she could not help rural and regional down to end of year exuberance, Madam Australia. She was sacked from that shadow President. The minister will recall that almost portfolio and replaced by a regional spokes- exactly 12 months ago he said that ‘1999 will man who lives in the centre of Melbourne and be the year of regional Australia’. Will the who has said on two occasions recently that minister inform the Senate how successful the he understands the problems of rural and partnership has been between the federal regional Australia because the same problems government and rural and regional Australia, are happening in his electorate in inner city and in particular what programs will have Melbourne. continuing benefit for regional Australians in Senator Murphy—Madam President, I 2000 and beyond? raise a point of order. It goes to relevance. I Senator IAN MACDONALD—I thank understood the minister got a dorothy dixer Senator Lightfoot for the question and for his from his own side about how well this ongoing interest in rural and regional Austral- government was treating rural and regional ia. Certainly 12 months ago I did nominate Australia. We have listened to him for some 1999 as the year for regional Australia, and I time but we have not heard anything. We am pleased to say that the Howard govern- really would like to know just what you are ment has focused Australia’s attention on doing for rural and regional Australia rather rural and regional Australia in that time. I am than commenting on what other people in proud to have been one of the two ministers other parties may or may not be doing. It Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11419 would be useful for us if the minister could on the initiatives we have made in the health inform us exactly what the government is area with the opening of the James Cook doing. University Medical School to put more The PRESIDENT—There is no point of doctors into rural and regional Australia. We order. want to spend the money we have allocated to help get pharmacists, doctors and allied Senator IAN MACDONALD—I can health professionals into rural and regional understand why the Labor Party try to stop Australia. I and most of my colleagues spend me telling them what we have done for rural a lot of time in country Australia. Last year and regional Australia and what they have not I spent 61 days in rural and regional Austral- done. ia, 62 days with local governments, 24 days More specifically, we have cut costs to rural in the territories and 45 days in my offices in and regional Australia. We have done that by rural and regional Australia, meeting all the removing some 23c a litre on fuel for trucks time, listening and understanding, as my that work in rural and regional Australia. We colleagues do. The Labor Party do none of have got rid of the wholesale sales tax, that that, because their spokesman lives in Mel- debilitating Labor tax. We have removed $4 bourne and stays there. Next year we hope to billion from export costs. We have removed open more RTCs, more telecommunications. $10 billion from costs of small business. We We are having the Northern Australia Forum have removed $7,500 on average from the to focus on that part of regional Australia. costs of every farmer. And every one of those And so it goes on. (Time expired) initiatives was opposed by the Labor Party. Goods and Services Tax: Animal We have increased telecommunications to Sponsorships the bush: $464 million into the bush— opposed by the Labor Party. We held a Senator CONROY (2.14 p.m.)—My regional summit which focused on rural and question is to Senator Kemp, the Assistant regional Australia. What did the Labor Party Treasurer. Can the minister confirm that, do? They attended, said a word saying it was under the Howard-Lees GST, Sydney’s not a bad idea, and then nitpicked on costs, Taronga Zoo will have to send 10 per cent of nitpicked on the little things, criticised and the moneys raised through their animal carped on the little things. We have had the sponsorship program to the federal govern- RTC program, the rural transaction centres, ment, as confirmed by an ATO ruling? Is it $70 million putting banking transaction fair that, although corporate donors may get centres back into the bush—opposed by a GST input credit, the $300,000 in sponsor- Labor. They did not want to give us the $70 ship from the general public, including the million to do it. It was opposed by Labor all children who get a certificate of appreciation the way through. The Natural Heritage Trust, for sponsoring animals like Chester the white $1½ billion, most of which goes into rural tiger, will have the 10 per cent GST skimmed and regional Australia—opposed by the Labor off for the government’s coffers? Isn’t the Party and criticised project by project. We government ashamed that it is slashing the have done a lot, and in the future we intend value of kids’ sponsorships of Taronga’s to carry on those programs. I personally animals from $300,000 by a 10 per cent tax? intend to continue my visits to rural and Honourable senators interjecting— regional Australia. (Time expired) The PRESIDENT—Order! The level of Senator LIGHTFOOT—Madam President, noise is unacceptable by any standards and I I ask a supplementary question. Could the do not think that senators appreciate the way minister continue to outline those initiatives behaviour is viewed by writers and phone that will have great bearing on rural and callers to the parliament. regional Australia in the next millennium? Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam Senator IAN MACDONALD—Again I President, and thank you, Senator Conroy, for thank Senator Lightfoot. We want to continue the question. I would have to say there was a 11420 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 trifle of overacting there, Senator Conroy, in Opposition senators interjecting— line with your usual form. This is totally in Senator Conroy—You don’t know, do line with the sort of nitpicking questions that you? we receive from the Labor Party. Very rel- evant information, I believe, to the issues Senator KEMP—Senator, I just— which have been raised by Senator Conroy in The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp, ignore relation to the impact of the goods and ser- the interjections. vices tax on charities came this morning from Senator KEMP—Senator, I have outlined none other than the Salvation Army. I think the general issues in relation to corporate it may be of interest to hear what the Salva- sponsorship. If you are speaking about a tion Army said. The Salvation Army said it is membership, we can go through that for you, now comfortable with the GST. It said: but the truth of the matter, Senator, is that With the compensation that has been provided by what is going to happen is that we are going the government, we have signed off on it.— to bring in a tax system which will be deliver- this is the Salvation Army— ing real rises in disposable incomes for We believe that the government is providing— Australian families. They will be far better off under our system than under the system that Senator Chris Evans interjecting— the Labor Party currently supports. Who The PRESIDENT—Senator Evans, abide knows what in the future the Labor Party will by the standing orders. support? We are very confident that individu- als and families will certainly be better off as Senator KEMP—It said: a result of our system. We believe that the government is providing adequate compensation, that in fact the government Senator CONROY—Madam President, I is providing funding for ongoing education. ask a supplementary question. Minister, won’t the application of GST to sponsorships like So we have bodies like the Salvation Army this undermine community support for making really taking issue with the sorts of com- gifts to organisations like Taronga Zoo, with plaints that the Labor Party is making. Basi- the knowledge that the government is going cally what we are seeing is an attempt by the to get a 10 per cent cut of the action? Labor Party to scare people to bring about some fear and concern where there is no need Senator KEMP—If you are speaking about for fear and concern. a specific membership or a specific issue, we will of course provide advice on that. But, if Sponsorship arrangements made by a GST you are speaking about the general issue of registered charity will generally be subject to sponsorship, Senator, the fact of the matter is GST. This is because sponsorships are effec- that we believe that, as a result of the meas- tively payments in return for a service of ures that we have brought in, bodies like the advertising or other benefits. However, Sena- zoo will certainly not suffer from our system tor, because a sponsorship transaction will and we believe they will in fact benefit. typically take place between two registered entities, the impact of the GST will net out. Crime Prevention: Achievements You raised the case of where an entity, I Senator COONAN (2.20 p.m.)—My understand, is input taxed. question is to the Minister for Justice and Senator Conroy—Children’s sponsorships! Customs, Senator Vanstone. Australians are Senator KEMP—You raised the case of vitally concerned about drugs, crime and corporate sponsorship and even though, in the access to justice. Will the minister inform the case of input taxed financial organisations, Senate of initiatives and achievements in the they will be unable to claim an input tax Attorney-General’s and Justice and Customs credit in respect of sponsorships undertaken, portfolios? all other input taxed financial organisations Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator will be in a similar position. Senator, we are Coonan for the question. It is quite appropri- bringing in a new tax system— ate, as we approach the end of the year, to Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11421 look on the achievements in each portfolio. have got money to bribe the person they are The first that I would nominate in this port- getting the contract from. We have introduced folio is the contribution the AFP made in East theft, fraud and bribery legislation, which is Timor. They were the first people there. There a part of major criminal law reform. We have are 40 that are still there. They gave extreme- had a report done by the Australian Law ly meritorious service and I would particularly Reform Commission on the confiscation of like to mention Alan Mills, a retired AFP proceeds of crime, and we will be acting on Assistant Commissioner who gave distin- that report early next year. Crime prevention guished service as the UNAMET commander under this government is getting the money in East Timor. That I would single out as a and the attention it deserves. great achievement for the Federal Police this There is a whole range of achievements. year. There is one thing that this parliament could The Federal Police and the NCA are of have achieved, not just for itself but for all course now properly resourced. They have Australians. But, sadly, because of people had increased money, as I was able to men- opposite, it is not going to happen. Sports tion yesterday, under the Tough on Drugs drugs is one area in which we could have initiatives. They have had record seizures of seen a very exciting achievement by this heroin, cocaine and amphetamines. We have parliament. Because we have the Sydney had the arrests of major international fugitives Olympics next year, it is important that and, most importantly for the man and the Australia demonstrates we want a clean woman in the street, they have been very Olympics and that we show what we are successful—through the Swordfish refer- prepared to do towards that. Customs has ence—in catching up with tax cheats, some- legislation at hand to increase the penalties on thing that the people opposite when they were people who import performance enhancing in government never did. drugs, to turn them into middle level narcotic penalties. The Democrats are prepared to The next achievement that I would like to support us, Senator Harradine is prepared to mention is that of CrimTrac, an extremely support us, One Nation are prepared to sup- overdue need to put together law enforcement port us. We could pass this legislation before information from all the state police services, Christmas and have an effective regime and we are starting with a fingerprint system leading up to the Olympics. What does Labor that was allowed—over 13 years under say? ‘Send it off to a committee.’ They have Labor—to fall into absolute disrepair to the not even thought about it. Kate Lundy is point that it was effectively useless. sitting there looking down. We have given Customs the resources and Senator Lundy interjecting— powers to do the job, and all we hear from the other side is, ‘Why don’t you peel a bit The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Lundy. off, establish a new authority and call it a Senator VANSTONE—The reason Senator coastguard?’ In contrast to that, the Prime Lundy is looking down is she is responsible Minister’s task force has put $124 million of for sports matters and has not done anything new money in, including new Dash 8 aircraft, about it. They have not got a policy. That is a night capable helicopter and a national why they have to send it off to a committee— surveillance centre. In relation to law reform, to think about it. That is why it will be this government has initiated and passed sex delayed. (Time expired) slavery legislation. It is very important for Australia to be taking the lead in this area to Goods and Services Tax: Charitable demonstrate that we will not put up with Organisations trafficking, especially in women, for use as Senator CROWLEY (2.24 p.m.)—My sex slaves. We have passed legislation in question is to Senator Kemp, the Assistant relation to foreign bribery so that our com- Treasurer. Can the Assistant Treasurer inform panies when competing overseas compete on the Senate whether the ladies’ committee of quality and price and not on whether they Sydney’s Royal North Shore Hospital will 11422 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 have to pay GST on their sales of biscuits, simply this: that particular charity or group cakes, jams and pickles, which raised will make a decision as to whether they want $164,000 last year for the hospital to purchase to remain outside the GST system, in which essential medical equipment? Can the minister case they will not be able to claim their input also confirm advice the ladies’ committee has tax credits, or whether they want to become received from a member of the Charities part of the system, in which case they will be Consultative Committee that, while it would able to. So we are providing that flexibility to probably be liable for a GST on sales, this charities. charity would not be able to get back some of This is what charities want. When they its GST paid on materials bought by the came to see us, charities wanted to have volunteers? Why is the Howard government flexibility in this area. I have to tell you that insisting on forcing this charity and thousands a lot of people are getting very fed up with more like it to be surrogate tax collectors? the Labor Party’s attitude on this. I quoted to Senator KEMP—Senator, I do not know you in my previous answer what the Salvation whether you have tuned into the debate in Army said in an interview with Pat Daly. I recent days, but we have had an extensive think they summed it up very well indeed. discussion on cakes stalls. In fact, I think we There was also an interview with Richard have heard the word ‘lamington’ more in this Menteith of the Wesley Mission. This shows chamber in the last couple of days than we how outside the ball game the Labor Party are have heard in the last 50 years. The situation at the moment. This is what Wesley Mission is this: the charities will decide how they says: structure their activities. Some charities will Wesley Mission has always seen the GST as a want to register for the GST, and some will significant improvement on the other tax paradigms want to remain outside the system. That is and regimes that we have had in previous years. their choice. If they believe that they want to They went on to say: be part of the system—and many will—they We need to recognise— will be able to claim the input tax credits. If they do not wish to be part of the system, Senator Conroy—Cash for comment! then they can have the option, as the Treasur- Senator KEMP—I know it hurts, Senator er has so lucidly outlined, to structure their Conroy—after all the effort of the scare activities. campaign, after all the attempts by the Labor Party; a party without policies, a party with- Let me quote what the Treasurer said—I out any views on how we should reform thought it was a pretty good quote, and I Australia. think we can afford to share it with you again in this chamber. He was referring to a charity: The PRESIDENT—Order! Minister, the time has concluded. We are going to make it unequivocally clear in the legislation that unless you are a charity that has a Senator KEMP—Madam President, if I turnover of $100,000, you do not come into the could have a supplementary, I have got a few system. more quotes from Wesley City Mission to That is what it means: pie drives, lamington share. cake stalls, Christmas cakes and all those Senator CROWLEY—I advise the minister sorts of things will not come into the system that the information I was asking him was unless they have a turnover on those projects actually provided by the Charities Consulta- of over $100,000. He went on to say, ‘Well, tive Committee. As a supplementary question they can structure their affairs so they can I ask: is the government seriously asking this take advantage of it on an individual fund- charity and thousands more like it to restruc- raising activity.’ So, if a charity wants to stay ture themselves to avoid the complexity and outside the system, it is up to it how it struc- paperwork imposed on all charities by the tures its activities. Unless the project is going Howard-Lees GST? Should this charity be over $100,000, they can stay outside the setting up separate entities, like the North system. The point I am making to you is Shore Ladies Committee (Cakes) Unit, the Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11423

North Shore Ladies Committee (Jams) Unit which I also raised when this matter was first and the North Shore Ladies Committee mentioned. I have to emphasise that there is (Pickles) Unit? Doesn’t this just impose a no evidence of any of that happening. My different set of complexities and paperwork point in raising it—and no doubt yours—was on this charity? Just how is the government just to let people out there know we are going to get itself out of this pickle of its own looking. making? When I looked at this question a year or so Senator KEMP—Rosemary Crowley— ago, I made a point of getting some of the The PRESIDENT—Senator Crowley, company returns for the subsidiaries of Ansett please, Senator. and Qantas who do the rural and regional routes. The reports that I was able to get all Senator KEMP—Senator Crowley has showed that they were doing quite nicely as done a Shayne Murphy— independent units. They are not cross-subsi- The PRESIDENT—Senator, you should dised by the major trunk route carriers. refer to senators correctly. I am also aware—I have no special know- Senator KEMP—Senator Crowley is ledge about this; I just use my eyes, read the worried that charities will be in the system paper and have a look around—that there are and Senator Crowley is worried that charities a number of independent players, not related will be out of the system. One of the many to Qantas or Ansett, who quite successfully good things in this package is that, with the operate in rural and regional Australia. One is structuring arrangements we have announced, Flight West, a very good Queensland based a lot of charities will find it very convenient airline that runs in rural and regional Queens- to take advantage of those arrangements. land and out to Norfolk Island. It seems to be There are advantages in being in the system, quite profitable, and it provides an excellent and some charities may see their advantages service. It does it on its own—it receives no in being out of the system. It is their choice. subsidy from Ansett or Qantas. Similarly, Impulse Airlines, operating out of Newcastle, Rural and Regional Australia: Air Fares seems to operate quite successfully without Senator GREIG (2.32 p.m.)—My question any cross-subsidy. is to Senator Ian Macdonald, representing the I, like you, Senator, want to keep an eye on Minister for Transport. It relates to the propo- it. It seems to me that those magnificent sal by Virgin Airlines to concentrate its services that have been provided by the rural Australian operations on the main intercapital and regional operators for those of us who trunk routes. Given the existing two domestic live in rural and regional Australia will airlines operate a national network of services continue. There is nothing in anything that that includes many low density, regional Virgin has done or in anything that Qantas services, what assurances can the senator give and Ansett have said that would lead me to the residents of rural and regional Australia think there would be any diminution in the that the likely downward pressure on fares services to rural and regional Australia. Virgin charged by the incumbent airlines on trunk will provide huge benefits for those on the routes through Virgin’s intended cherry major trunk routes. I like to think that people picking strategy does not lead to upward are discovering even more places up my way, pressures on the less competitive regional like Townsville and Cairns. I think players routes as a result of the reduced capacity of like Virgin will follow Flight West, Qantas Ansett and Qantas to cross-subsidise routes? and Ansett in bringing services up there. That Senator IAN MACDONALD—We as a again will help with competition, and compe- government are confident right across the tition of course brings a better service and whole spectrum of government activities that reduced costs. competition brings a better deal for customers Like you, I will keep an eye on it, but I and brings lower prices. You start from that really have no great concerns. I think the premise. Senator, you are raising a concern services to rural and regional Australia will 11424 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 continue, and I would like to compliment Senator KEMP—The first point is that those currently providing those services. next Christmas Australians will be even better Although they are a little expensive and they off as a result of the government’s policies. think that those of us who live in rural and Let me tell you what people will receive next regional Australia are not quite as bulky as Christmas in contrast to this Christmas. Next some of our intercapital city counterparts—the Christmas the first thing that will come room given to us on some of the regional through will be the very major tax cuts. Many airliners is a little bit small—they provide a families will be in the order of $40 to $50 a pretty good service and I congratulate them week better off even after the imposition of on it. the GST. That is the first thing we will see: families who are better off. We will see Senator GREIG—I note that the minister pensioners and those who are in receipt of is keen to reassure the Senate that everything benefits better off. will be all right on the night. I ask as a supplementary question: does the Common- Senator Cook—Madam President, I rise on wealth intend to use the prices powers of the a point of order. The answer to this question ACCC, or to supplement such powers as has been going for well over one minute. I necessary, to ensure that users of regional air never asked anything about the so-called tax services do not suffer an increase in relative cuts which will make low income Australians fare levels arising from the entry of Virgin worse off; I asked specifically about the value Australia to the domestic intercapital routes? of a gift voucher in services, and what the face value of that will be this year compared Senator IAN MACDONALD—If Senator with next year under a GST. Will the minister Greig or any other senator or citizen of answer that question—it is a clear, precise, Australia has any evidence that there are specific question—and not evade it by drag- problems, or that there is something untoward ging in all the government propaganda about happening that the ACCC should look at, then how we are all going to be better off under certainly we will refer it to the ACCC, but I the GST, which no Australian believes? do not anticipate that that will happen. The regional routes, as I have already explained, The PRESIDENT—There is no point of are successful in their own right. I cannot see order. that there is any need for it. What I can see Senator KEMP—You asked me how is that competition will bring better air ser- Australian families will be next Christmas vices right across the spectrum of the Austral- compared with this Christmas. ian airline travelling public and that things Senator Cook—Madam President, I rise on will be better. But, certainly, Senator, if you a point of order. The minister has just rewrit- have any evidence, or if something pops up ten the question. I never asked him that at all. in the future that you are concerned about, by If he would only listen to the question! I will all means refer it to us. Anything untoward go to it again. Given that this is the last will be referred to the ACCC at the earliest Christmas, can the minister explain what will possible time. be the value of services that can be purchased Goods and Services Tax: Gift Vouchers with a $40 post-GST gift voucher as opposed to the value of services that can be purchased Senator COOK (2.38 p.m.)—My question with a $40 gift voucher this year? That was is to Senator Kemp, the Assistant Treasurer. the question. Given that this Christmas is the last Christmas that Australians can enjoy before the introduc- The PRESIDENT—There is no point of tion of the Howard-Lees GST, can the order. minister explain what the value of services Senator KEMP—The point I was trying to that can be purchased with a $40 post-GST make to Senator Cook was that the great thing gift voucher will be as opposed to the value is that Australian families will be better off of services that can be purchased with a $40 next Christmas. The great thing is that Aus- gift voucher this year? tralian families will be even better off. The Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11425 great thing is that those in receipt of pensions $36.36 worth of services next year as opposed and benefits will be better off. That is import- to the full $40 face value of the gift voucher ant, and it is something we are particularly this year? Will you confirm that fact, proud of. We have special assistance for self- Minister? Doesn’t that mean that the Howard- funded retirees. All those things are, frankly, Lees GST, as it will apply on gift vouchers very important measures. next year, is no more than a tax on Christ- On the value of the service, the truth of the mas? matter is that in some areas we may see Senator KEMP—Boy, is Senator Cook prices of some services rise, and in some struggling now! I will look at one of the areas other areas we may see prices fall. There will that Kate Lundy has a particular interest in. be a range of changes. The truth of the matter The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp, do not is that you would have to specify the particu- refer to a senator in that fashion. lar service, Senator, but we do know that Australian families will be better able to Senator KEMP—Senator Katherine Lundy, afford to buy vouchers. Some families, be- for some reason, wants to impose a wholesale cause they get the extra $40 or $50 a week, sales tax of around 22 per cent on a lot of will be able to buy more vouchers and give sporting goods. I do not know why Senator more gifts. We are very proud of the meas- Lundy wants to do that— ures that we are bringing in. The Labor Party Senator Cook—Madam President, I raise opposed tax reform lock, stock and barrel. a point of order. My question was not about Those people will get those vouchers next Senator Lundy and, in any event, the answer Christmas, and they will see that they will given about Senator Lundy was misleading have the money in their pockets to save more and misrepresentative. My question was about or to spend more. It is something that this the gift voucher. It is a simple question. If the government is particularly proud of. Everyone minister is not capable of answering it, will looks forward to Christmas, but I have to tell he just sit down. you that, with this tax reform, they will be Honourable senators interjecting— looking forward to Christmas 2000 with even Senator Ian Campbell—Madam President, more enthusiasm than this year. on the point of order— The final point I make is this: what a Senator Faulkner—She’s already ruled. hypocritical question, coming from Senator Cook. One of his most famous quotes—not The PRESIDENT—I have not ruled. Some the most famous quote, but one of his most of you are making too much noise. famous—was ‘the Labor Party is a high Senator Ian Campbell—I think Senator taxing party’. That was a Senator Cook quote. Kemp is being relevant to the question. He is I would type that as his third most famous talking about gifts that one might buy at quote, Madam President. Christmas time. If he wants to remain rel- Senator Schacht—What was the first? evant, I think he should also explain to the Senate that, with a $40 gift voucher, under Senator KEMP—No, I am not going to Liberal policies you could buy three CDs next say what his first most famous quote was. Christmas, and if you stuck to Labor’s poli- People are well able to look it up in Hansard. cies on CDs and taxation you would be lucky Senator COOK—Madam President, I ask to buy one. a supplementary question. The minister did Honourable senators interjecting— not answer my question but, given his answer, it is incomplete unless he tells Australians The PRESIDENT—The issue is being they will be paying five per cent to seven per debated and there is no point of order. cent more in inflation as a consequence of the Senator Faulkner—Madam President, I GST. My question goes back to the gift have a further point of order. In recognising voucher. Isn’t it a fact that the $40 post-GST Senator Campbell and taking that point of gift voucher will be able to purchase only order— 11426 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

The PRESIDENT—It was not a taking of Goods and Services Tax: School a point of order. Canteens Senator Faulkner—I am aware it was not Senator HARRIS (2.49 p.m.)—My ques- a point of order, but you did say ‘point of tion is to the Assistant Treasurer. The A New order’. You ruled it was not a point of ord- Tax System (Goods and Services Tax) Act er— 1999 provides, in section 40E, for a school tuckshop or canteen run by a non-profit body The PRESIDENT—Senator Faulkner, sit to elect to have all its supplies of food treated down. Senator Cook had raised a point of as input taxed. The cost of the GST on inputs order— will be passed to the students. This will be particularly hard on parents who organise Senator Faulkner—I am aware of that. school tuckshops and canteens run on a non- The PRESIDENT—Remain quiet while I profit basis. Given that the government is now finish saying what I am saying. Senator Cook expecting to reap additional revenue through took a point of order, Senator Campbell rose the higher business registration, will the to speak to the point of order, and when there minister consider making a determination was sufficient silence around so that he was under section 38(3) to extend GST-free status likely to hear, I called him to speak to the to all food supplied to students in school point of order that Senator Cook had made. tuckshops run by non-profit parent-teacher I have not yet ruled on that point of order, organisations? and you have intervened. If you wish to speak Senator KEMP—I thank Senator Harris for to that, you may. that question. Tuckshops which are run by a non-profit body at a primary school or a Senator Faulkner—I was trying to do that. secondary school and which supply only food The PRESIDENT—You were seeking to may choose to be input taxed—that is their raise another point of order, which is why I choice—and they will be outside the GST intervened. system. Where this occurs, the tuckshop will not charge GST on sales of food, but it will Senator Faulkner—The point I am making not be entitled to claim input tax credits for is this: when a government minister is in GST paid on its purchases. In this case, the trouble and the government is in damage tuckshop’s revenue can be excluded from the control, government members use the device annual turnover of the non-profit body for of taking spurious points of order or they GST registration purposes. People will make speak to points of order and make spurious their own judgments, but I think many parent debating points. That is out of order. If associations will choose to be input taxed and Senator Kemp cannot answer a question in not charge GST on food. That is a choice that question time, and he cannot answer this one, they will have. That is another area where this he should sit down and take it on notice. government is flexible. We are providing options to people. The PRESIDENT—There is no point of order and that was not an appropriate contri- The other point I think Senator Harris bution either. referred to was a windfall rise in GST rev- enue. Senator Harris, I think you were prob- Senator KEMP—The point I am making ably referring to an article which appeared in is that, in many cases, the real value of the the Financial Review yesterday. The increase voucher will improve. For example, this in estimates of GST registrations reflects both Christmas Senator Lundy wants to impose a the normal increase in new business registra- 22 per cent wholesale sales tax on sporting tions from year to year, more up-to-date ATO goods. We are taking that off and imposing data and, of course—thanks to this govern- a 10 per cent GST. The short answer to ment—a stronger economy. They are the Senator Cook is that the real value of vouch- economic parameters. Growth factors are ers may well rise. already factored into the Treasury revenue Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11427 estimates for the GST. The growth in business So that if a charity wants to stay outside the numbers therefore, I am advised, would not system, and it’s up to it how it structures its of itself result in any increase in revenue over activities, unless the project is going over $100 000 they can stay right outside the system. and above the current Treasury estimates. How does this statement accord with the The point I want to make to the Senate— Treasurer’s press release of 29 October where and we have had a number of questions today he said: on this issue—is that this government is This means that, where the unit’s turnover is less providing flexibility for non-profit bodies. In than $50 000, the unit can choose whether it the case of school tuckshops, there is a registers for GST or not. flexibility. You have to view this whole The Treasurer further stated: package. Many families will be $40 to $50 a Where the unit has a turnover of $50 000 or more, week better off as a result of our tax package. it will have to register separately for GST. The fact of the matter is, as we discussed with Senator Cook with respect to the voucher Can the Assistant Treasurer just try to inform issue, that many families are going to be us what the registration threshold is—$50,000 better off. They will have more money in or $100,000? If the Treasurer himself is not their pockets. This is something that this sure, how will charities know? government is very proud of. I hope that Senator KEMP—That was the whole point provides the response that you were seeking. of the announcement yesterday. I am very We will not be going further, but I think that glad that Senator Sherry referred to the is a response which shows the flexibility that Treasurer’s comments because I think they are this government has in relation to making extremely important, and it provides me with sure that we have a system which is fair to all an opportunity to properly inform the Senate types of organisations. exactly what the Treasurer said. He said: Well, they can structure their affairs so that they Senator HARRIS—Madam President, I ask can take advantage of it on individual fundraising a supplementary question. My supplementary activities. question goes back to the original question to This was an issue that Senator Crowley raised some extent. The question was whether the with us. government would give, through section 38(3), a GST-free status to the food. That was Senator Ian Macdonald—Hang on, she’s the basis of the question. That would allow gone. them to not have to pay the GST or decide Senator KEMP—Yes, Senator Crowley whether they would claim inputs or not. seems to have departed. The Treasurer said: Bearing that in mind, if the government did So that if a charity wants to stay outside the exercise that consideration, would the minister system, and it’s up to it how it structures its be able to inform the chamber what the activities, unless the project is going over $100 000 relative costs of granting that concession they can stay right outside the system. would be? Then he went on to say: Senator KEMP—I do not have any figures Well, staying outside the system means that they don’t have any registration—they don’t have any here at the moment which could assist you, advantages of the GST—but of course they don’t but I will look to see whether there are any have any price requirements in relation to the GST. figures that I am able to supply to you, The Treasurer then went on to make the very Senator. important point—a useful point to sum up this Goods and Services Tax: Charitable question time—that there are some 156 Organisations countries that have a GST type system. These countries are not going back to the Labor Senator SHERRY (2.55 p.m.)—My ques- Party wholesale sales tax. No-one is arguing tion is to Senator Kemp, the Assistant Treas- that they should go back to the Labor Party urer. Is the minister aware of the Treasurer’s wholesale sales tax system, except maybe the statement yesterday where he said: Labor Party. As I have said in this chamber 11428 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 before, the truth of the matter is that the Senator KEMP—I am happy to read the hardest question you ever get in this chamber whole thing. If any of my colleagues want to is: what does the Labor Party stand for? stand up after question time and take note, I Senator Alston—There’s no answer, really. hope that they will be able to read the whole thing into the record to see what an utterly Senator KEMP—As my colleague Senator bogus, hopeless group the Labor Party has Alston said, there is no answer to that ques- become under the leadership of Beazley in the tion. We do not know what your tax policy is. other place and Senator Faulkner in this You do not know what your tax policy is. chamber. Senator Cook—No GST. Senator Chris Evans—Madam Deputy Senator KEMP—No GST? I hope I have President, I take a point of order. I invite the clarified the position for Senator Sherry. minister to table the document, if he is so Senator SHERRY—Madam President, I confident of its contents. ask a supplementary question. The point of The PRESIDENT—There is no point of the question went to why the Treasurer on order. Senator Kemp? one day said the threshold was $50,000 and on another day said it was $100,000. If the Senator KEMP—No. Prime Minister and the Treasurer are not sure Senator Hill—Madam President, I ask that about how the new tax will operate—and the further questions be placed on the Notice Assistant Treasurer has never had any idea Paper. about how it will operate—what hope do voluntary organisations, small businesses and Goods and Services Tax: Charitable ordinary Australians have? What happened to Organisations the simple new tax? Senator COOK (Western Australia— Senator KEMP—The answer to that is Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the this—and it is not me; it is the Salvation Senate) (3.01 p.m.)—I move: Army. This is what the Salvation Army said That the Senate take note of the answers given yesterday. by the Assistant Treasurer (Senator Kemp) to Opposition senators interjecting— questions without notice asked by senators today, relating to the goods and services tax. Senator KEMP—The Salvation Army will speak for charities, not you. It is this: During question time once again the inad- equacy of this government in explaining the The Salvation Army is now comfortable with the GST was revealed. There is no explanation at GST with the compensation that has been provided by the government. We have signed off on it more all as to why a rapacious government like this or less. would want to impose a tax on Australian charities. The charitable movement in Austral- Senator Chris Evans—Wasn’t that just the ia is an honourable one. The charitable move- bloke who answered the phone and was trying ment in Australia is driven by the idealism of to be helpful? many people who make personal sacrifices to The PRESIDENT—Senator Evans, you see that Australians in greater need than them should not be talking across the chamber in receive services. And what is the govern- that fashion. There is an appropriate time for ment’s way of honouring that effort by many you to intervene and debate the issue, and that volunteer Australian charitable workers? Its is after question time. way of honouring it is to tax them—and not only to tax them. Now that opposition to that Senator KEMP—I must say to the senator tax has been raised by the charitable organisa- who made the interjection that it was a most tions themselves— disgraceful interjection. I hope the Salvation Army— Government senators interjecting— Senator Chris Evans—Read the whole The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! thing. There is far too much noise in this chamber. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11429

I ask speakers to address the chair and for It is a decision I applaud him for. Today I re- interjections to cease. ceived an email, which all senators received, Senator COOK—In the debate we have from the honorary secretary of the Motor just had during question time, Senator Kemp Neurone Disease Research Institute, who says said, ‘What does the Labor Party stand for?’ in part: Well, it stands for a lot of things, none of I have had conflicting opinions about whether the which he said it stood for, of course. One of GST will apply to our operation. If it does there the things it does stand for, clearly and up- will be 10 per cent less money available for research. The institute exists to provide funds for front and in your face, is no GST. Under that research into a devastating terminal disease of heading that also means no GST— considerable cruelty, of unknown cause and no Senator Ian Campbell—Your leader said cure. you will only roll it back. She goes on: Senator COOK—Oh, why don’t you drop The doubt about application of GST seems to me dead! to hinge on one factor: Will the production of a report on completed research be considered to be The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! an outcome and will the allocation of funds be Senator Campbell, would you please withdraw considered pay for that outcome? If the institute’s that imputation. support for research is liable for GST then we have Senator Ian Campbell—The Labor Party’s a situation in which there will be 10 per cent reduction in funded research, research which is position is they support rolling back a GST. vital to those living with motor neurone disease. They support the GST but we are not sure by Their fate is a cruel enough one without having the how much. So it is a lie to say they don’t hard raised funding reduced by taxation. support the GST—an unmitigated lie. That is from a leading charitable organisation The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order, doing valuable work on a disease that some Senator Campbell! Australians are afflicted with. The government Senator Ian Campbell—I withdraw. should show sympathy. There is no sympathy Senator COOK—We stand for no GST here, other than, ‘We will teach you how to and we voted in this chamber against a evade the tax.’ Let me come back to that in GST— a minute. Today I have a press report from the Daily Liberal, a newspaper in country Senator Ian Campbell—That’s rubbish! New South Wales, dated Tuesday of this You hypocrite! week, which states: Senator COOK—You know it, and you are "Complying with GST would cost the Western only envious— region diocese of St Vincent de Paul at least The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! $40,000 a year," it was claimed yesterday. Senator Campbell, you have made an unpar- It goes on to say: liamentary comment. Would you please That is what St Vincent de Paul say will be the withdraw it. effect of it. Senator Ian Campbell—I withdraw. This is a tax imposed by the Liberal Party, Senator COOK—We stand for no GST on the National Party and the Australian Demo- charities and we stand for no cash-for-com- crats. We know that there have been talks ment blackmail on Australian charities. going on behind the scenes because their Senator Ian Campbell—Tell the truth. backbench has been stampeded by this insen- Aren’t you capable of telling the truth? sitive, unfeeling, impersonal tax being im- posed on Australian charities. But what The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! sympathy do we get from these parties about Senator COOK—You have never made it the plight of Australian charities and the need to the ministry and you are very keen to get to turn every dollar they raise to the benefit there. Fortunately, the Prime Minister in of the charitable purposes for which they overlooking you, Senator Campbell, for front exist? Senator Murray, the Democrat bench preference has made the right decision. spokesman on taxation, said today, ‘The fact 11430 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 is that we agreed charities would be within The beneficiaries of charities will be better off the new tax system. For those charities who because there will be an increase in family don’t want to be in the new tax system, well, benefits. There will be a reduction in the they are going to be.’ That is an unfeeling, incidence of poverty traps, and the new tax unsympathetic attitude to Australian charities system will underpin our social security safety trying to raise a quid by the local raffle, by net, provide better education services and the lamington drive, by the cake stall, to serve better health services. So, in a multitude of the needs of their charitable organisations. ways, the beneficiaries of charities will The response from the government is to say, benefit from the new tax system. ‘Restructure your affairs’, but restructuring Senator Faulkner—You don’t believe this. your affairs means a new legal entity, a new set of books, a new auditor, and you people Senator EGGLESTON—I believe every use it on administration, not on services. word of it, Senator Faulkner, and I know that (Time expired) you know in your heart that it is true that these people will benefit. Senator EGGLESTON (Western Australia) (3.08 p.m.)—Senator Cook, you can keep on Senator Faulkner—You are more stupid trying but you are not going to get there. than I thought you were. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Address the Senator EGGLESTON—Senator Faulkner, chair, please, Senator Eggleston. there is a hollow ring— Senator EGGLESTON—Through the The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! chair, of course, Madam Deputy President. As Senator Eggleston, address the chair, please, long as Senator Cook keeps trying, he is not and try to ignore those interjections. going to make the case that charities do not Senator EGGLESTON—because there is accept the GST. As was said on ABC national no doubt that the ALP will keep the GST television on the 7.30 Report last night, Mr when and if they ever return to power. Paul Daley from the Salvation Army said: Keating wanted to introduce a tax like this. It’s a fact of payments out and then receiving Here we are: it is on the agenda, it has hap- payments back. We’re satisfied that all the issues pened. When you come back into office you have been dealt with and that we’re not going to be will leave it there because you know that jeopardised in any way, or it’s not going to be a most countries in the OECD have this kind of negative for us. indirect tax system. This was a very necessary That sums it up pretty well, doesn’t it? Here step forward that Australia had to take. As a you have a spokesman for the Salvation Army matter of public policy the ALP will not saying that they are not at all unhappy about remove it. the way charities will be treated under the Let us look at how the GST will affect new tax system. So, regardless of Senator charities. First of all, non-commercial activi- Cook’s attempts, the fact remains that across ties which will not be subject to the GST the board charities are quite happy with the include supplies that are less than 50 per cent way this system will work. of the market value of such items, supplies Let us think about how it will affect the that are less than 50 per cent of the cost to clients of charities. What does the new tax the charities providing the supply, or the system mean for the clients of charities and supply of second-hand donated goods. It is will they benefit? In fact, the clients of true that the commercial activities of charities charities will be much better off under the will be treated the same as the commercial new tax system. They will be better off activities of any ordinary business to ensure because there will be a real increase in pen- that ordinary businesses are not put at a sions and allowances which will give them competitive disadvantage. Charities will be more spending power. They will be better off entitled to register for the GST if they so because there will be tax cuts worth $12 desire and if their gross income is above the billion a year which will benefit low income threshold levels, which will mean they will earners and give them more spending power. generally be able to claim back the GST paid Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11431 on all their inputs as input credits. Fundrais- understand this policy, you could well under- ing done through sponsorship from businesses stand why. Even the members of this govern- will be largely unaffected by the GST. ment do not know how this policy is going to Senator Faulkner—You believe all this, do apply. you? We now have a GST on compassion. We Senator EGGLESTON—I do believe it, have a GST on the goodwill in people’s and I know you do, too, Senator Faulkner. hearts. Let us look at the elderly volunteers, Here you are pretending that you do not see for example, who run a stall at the base the benefits of this tax. hospital in Orange. They raise over $200,000 per year, probably using old ice-cream con- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! tainers or tins such as that for a till, and Senator Faulkner, cease interjecting. Senator donate over $100,000 to that hospital because Eggleston, please address the chair and ignore they believe in the cause. They believe that those interjections. they are trying to raise some money for the Senator EGGLESTON—I will, Madam hospital. They will now be caught up in the Deputy President. I know that you as Deputy GST bungle. President would not want to see any persons like Senator Faulkner on the opposite side The answer today from this government is making misleading statements about not that charities will now have a choice. They believing in the benefits of this tax system. will not have a choice. The choice will be Fundraising for charities done through dona- that if you have a turnover of under $100,000, tions—(Time expired) you can opt to be part of the system or not. If your turnover is over $100,000, you are in Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) the system. The choice is either whether they (3.13 p.m.)—People at home who have been bother with all the paperwork and try to listening to the events of the parliament in the recoup some of the money back that they will last few days should be left in no doubt at all be paying on the GST or whether they will that Ebenezer Scrooge is not in fact a fictional say it is all too hard. character in a story book but that Ebenezer Scrooge is alive and well in the hearts of each The real essence of this is that there will be and every member of the federal government. a decline in the number of volunteers in this What we have seen this week from this country who willingly give their time to debacle of the impact of the GST on charities charities and volunteer to bank this money or is that this government is very strong on do the limited paperwork that is now required. taxing the weak and very weak on taxing the Charitable organisations will be relying more strong or the rich members of our society. and more on fewer and fewer people. No-one will be bothered being a tax collector for this We have a government that wants to turn government when they want to spend their charities into tax collectors. We have a time raising money and assisting the charities government that is also quite inconsistent that they believe are worthwhile assisting. At about its policies and where it is going. the end of the day, we will see less money for Yesterday Senator Kemp stood up in the activities and those people that those charities Senate and told us that World Vision sponsor- are designed to assist. ship, for example, could be subject to the tax. The GST will be payable on money you pay Nobody in the community believes Senator to World Vision to sponsor a little child Eggleston or Senator Kemp when they say overseas. At the same time, in the House of that this will be a good thing for people who Representatives, the Prime Minister was are poor and struggling and for organisations forced to declare a backdown, whereby a GST that need these extra funds. Nobody believes exemption for child sponsorships would that. I cannot believe that the government is apply. We have heard a great deal of incon- so out of touch with the anger in the com- sistency about their policy on the GST. If the munity at this time as this GST debacle rolls ordinary person sitting at home does not out before their eyes. 11432 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

We have a tax on compassion. We are rates are so much lower than they were when turning charities into tax collectors. We really we came to office. They have more spending want the government to stand up and say power now. categorically that they will be exempting Senator Cook did not say anything about charities and their fundraising efforts from the the giver of that $40 having income tax cuts GST. That is what ACOSS have called for next July. He conveniently forgot that. The and that is what charities have called for from $12 billion worth of income tax cuts being day one. They want a complete exemption delivered by this government will allow from this debacle and a complete acknowledg- somebody who gives a $40 gift voucher this ment by this government that they play a very year to actually give more next year. valuable role in this community. That role will now be turned into nothing less than a Senator O’Brien interjecting— tax collector for the federal government. Senator FERGUSON—Senator O’Brien Senator FERGUSON (South Australia) can say all he likes by way of interjection, but (3.18 p.m.)—We have listened to various the proof is in the pudding. Senator O’Brien senators speak in here today. One thing we is another of those members opposite who really know is that, as far as the Labor Party does not want the GST removed. He wants to is concerned, it is a great pretence that they keep it there in the unlikely event that those do not believe in the GST. If the Labor Party opposite happen to form a government. does not believe in the GST, why do they not Senator Cook’s question about a $40 vouch- come out and say that they will get rid of it er was naturally aimed at getting some cheap in the unlikely event they are elected? Not headline. He never mentioned anything about once have they been prepared to say that they the real increase in pensions and allowances will get rid of the GST. With that in mind, that will occur. He never mentioned anything one can only assume that they actually sup- about the $12 billion worth of tax cuts that port a GST. They will not at any stage get up will flow on to Australian taxpayers on 1 July and say that they will remove the GST in the next year. He never mentioned the increase in unlikely event that they are elected. family benefits. There was not a word about Senator Crossin will not say it. She makes the positive side of tax reform. There was statements that are simply not true. There is only the harping negative side as he tried to absolutely nothing to substantiate her claim find specific instances and nitpick. Even then, that the number of volunteers will decline. he did not come up with the correct facts. Volunteers have been declining under the Senator Cook never said anything about Labor Party’s wholesale sales tax. They have reducing the incidence of poverty traps. One been declining in number over the years. All of the key planks of this taxation reform is to these service clubs that have been mentioned try to reduce the incidence of poverty traps, today have been declining in number all the something which you did not even attempt to time we have had the Labor Party’s wholesale tackle during 13 years of Labor government. sales tax. So do not blame a decline in num- I remember Senator Murray saying at one of bers on the GST. our tax inquiries that this is the first time any In question time, Senator Cook spoke about government in recent times has done anything the value of a $40 voucher this Christmas to try to tackle the poverty traps that exist and compared with a $40 voucher next Christmas. the disincentives for people to work or to Under the sound economic management of work harder or to earn more. There was not this government, that $40 voucher could a word from Senator Cook about the new tax actually be a voucher worth well over $100 system, which is going to underpin our social if that person is paying a mortgage on their security safety net, education, health and all house. In the time that this government has of those other things that are so important to been in power, we have been able to put more all the members of our community. than approximately $100 week per week extra My advice to the Labor Party is to stop the in a house buyer’s pocket because interest scaremongering tactics. Do not frighten Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11433

Australians. Everything that you have said Under the Federal Government’s GST guidelines today is not designed to present the truth to there is a significantly more complex system which the public, it is designed to try to scare the will tax corporate sponsorships, fetes, food vouch- ers, refuges and even sheltered workshops. public into believing something that simply will not happen. We had Senator Crossin The Australian Tax Office has admitted GST saying that the number of volunteers will compliance costs will eat into charity funds and decline, as though the number has been volunteers will need training to cope with GST paperwork and personally bear the additional out- increasing in the last number of years. We all of-pocket expenses. know that all voluntary organisations over a long period of time have struggled to main- It is a significant quote coming from the tain their numbers. The Labor Party actually Daily Liberal. I believe it is quite an accurate like the GST because they have no intention portrayal of the fears that abound in our of removing it. I know Senator McKiernan is community of those organisations which another one who thinks that we should keep provide such a service to the Australian it. (Time expired) community. Senator McKIERNAN (Western Australia) Even Mr Costello has heard of these fears. (3.23 p.m.)—With regard to the remarks of Yesterday in the House of Representatives Mr the previous speaker, Senator Ferguson, I am Costello tried to calm nerves, but what he not one of the people in this chamber who also did was to actually tell it like it is. He can be accused of getting up here and has told the charities that operate in Australia scaremongering in the past, and I am not that, whichever way they turn, they are going going to do it at the moment. What I am to get it in the neck. They are going to get it going to do, though, is something quite in the neck because if they register that they unusual. I am going to quote from the Daily have over $100,000 in inputs, they will have Liberal. This is a newspaper that operates in all the associated paperwork. If they do not the western district of New South Wales. It is have $100,000 in inputs and seek not to not within my constituency but, because of its register, then they are going to be hit with the name and because of what the editorial of GST on the inputs. So whichever way they yesterday says, it is well worth while reading turn they are going to cop it—they are going it into the record to see where this to cop it going and they are going to cop it scaremongering is coming from and to see coming back as well. Today’s Adelaide where the facts and the truths, and where the Advertiser says: fears of the charitable organisations, are And Mr Costello said large charities with big coming from. It will not take very long to turnovers would still escape the tax by separating read. The editorial says: their individual activities into units worth less than $100,000. The western region branch of St Vincent de Paul Society believes it will cost $40,000 to comply But by doing this, charities would still be caught with GST regulations when they come into force in the GST net because they would not be allowed on July 1, 2000. to claim the rebates for the GST on products they purchase. This particular case, which won’t be uncommon among charities and other community non-profit For example, a parent group with a turnover of groups, highlights the difference between the less than $100,000 would still have to pay the GST current system of exemptions and a system im- on items such as some foods for the tuckshop, mersed in paperwork. raffle prizes and clothes for the uniform shop. The group could sell the items GST-free but would not At the moment— be able to claim back any of the GST it paid for the stock. Senator Ferguson should listen to this— As we approach the last year of the current registered charities and some other groups are exempt from paying wholesale sales tax. It’s a century, Ebenezer Scrooge is well and truly fairly simple procedure requiring a registration alive. But what is the identity of Ebenezer number and little or no paperwork during the Scrooge? Is it John Howard? Is it Mr transaction. Costello? Or is it Senator Lees? 11434 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Please do be applied to both Ansett and Qantas to lower not reflect upon a member of the other house their trunk route fares in response to the or a senator. competition from Virgin. This will undoubted- Senator McKIERNAN—The answer to ly apply equal pressure to both Ansett and that question is still to be found out. Qantas to either increase fares on their less popular and less frequented sectors or perhaps Question resolved in the affirmative. to wind back these services altogether. Rural and Regional Australia: Air Fares Today’s press and the Brisbane Courier- Senator GREIG (Western Australia) (3.29 Mail report that Mr Richard Branson’s Virgin p.m.)—I move: Airlines has crossed its first major hurdle towards establishing a third domestic airline That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister for Regional Services, Territories and after the federal government granted foreign Local Government (Senator Ian Macdonald) to a investment approval. Assistant Treasurer, question without notice asked by Senator Greig Senator Kemp, yesterday announced the today, relating to airline competition and regional approval under new rules which allow foreign air services. carriers to establish new domestic aviation In his answer, Senator Ian Macdonald repeat- businesses provided they are in the national ed his commitment to competition and to interest. This raises the question of what rural and regional Australia, and also indicat- constitutes the national interest, and it is in ed his enthusiasm for and interest in the this context that I raise my real concerns proposal by Virgin to work within Australia. about the potential downgrading of services It is true that there is considerable interest and to rural and regional areas, or perhaps the concern over the proposal by Virgin Airlines more likely scenario of low frequency sectors to operate here. I think this concern and used by Ansett and Qantas being the subject interest is in two parts. of price hikes as these airlines continue to service those areas not serviced by Virgin but Firstly, there is the excitement from many under the added financial pressure being people in the general community about the placed on them by competition. prospect of a third airline operating within Australia and what this new competition Competition in and of itself is not a bad might mean in terms of cheaper air fares. I thing, but it can only work fairly if there is a can remember the immense support in my level playing field. In a previous answer on home state of Western Australia for the this matter when it was raised by my col- emergence some years ago of Compass league Senator Woodley, Senator Macdonald Airlines and the way in which it dramatically said: altered the cost of interstate flights, which This particular issue is one thing I think the plunged dramatically and for the first time government just has to keep an eye on to make made it possible for many West Australians sure there is not any diminution in the bush. who previously had not been able to afford But this issue is about not only how the interstate airfares to then do so. This jolt to emergence of Virgin may adversely affect the the airline duopoly has had long-reaching bush, but also the way in which less popular effects and the legacy of Compass to today’s sectors such as Perth to Adelaide or Adelaide consumers is a domestic airfares regime that to Darwin may be affected by potential price is more accessible and affordable than it was increases. The Australian Competition and in the past. Consumer Council, the ACCC, would appear Alongside the understandable interest in the to be well placed to monitor and report on emergence of Virgin Airlines is the very real this, particularly in terms of potential price concern about the cherry picking operations increases as a result of what might rightly be that Virgin proposes to employ. That is, by seen as unfair trade practices. Again Senator choosing to work only the main capital city Macdonald made reference to this in a previ- trunk routes—largely Sydney, Melbourne and ous answer to my colleague Senator Woodley Brisbane—the pressure will almost certainly when asked about the demise of Compass Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11435

Airlines and the apparent difficulties imposed to establish a national or international nuclear waste on it by Qantas or Ansett in terms of airport dump within Australia. space and general terminal facilities. Your petitioners ask that the Senate oppose any intentions by the Australian Government to support Today I asked the minister whether the the nuclear industry via any mining, new reactors, Commonwealth intends to use the prices waste dumps, and sales of uranium. power of the ACCC and whether it intends to by Senator Lees (from 100 citizens). supplement such powers as necessary to ensure that users of regional services do not Uranium: World Heritage Areas suffer an increase in relative fare levels To the Honourable the President and Members of arising from the entry of Virgin Australia into the Senate in the Parliament assembled: the domestic intercapital routes. In reply, the The petition of the undersigned strongly opposes minister indicated that, if any adverse illegal any attempts by the Australian Government to mine or improper behaviour towards Virgin could uranium at the Jabiluka and Koongara sites in the be shown, then it ought to be directed to the World Heritage Listed Area of the Kakadu National ACCC. It is a reply that very strongly sug- Park or any other proposed or currently operating site. gests reaction rather than action. Your petitioners ask that the Senate oppose any I think, however, that I express the views intentions by the Australian Government to support and concerns of many Australians when I say the nuclear industry via any mining, enrichment that, to date, the government has not been and sale of uranium. altogether convincing with its assurances of by Senator Lees (from 120 citizens). consumer protection and consumer equity for those travellers in the less popular flight Industrial Relations sectors currently serviced, and well serviced To the Honourable the President and Members of for the most part, by the existing duopoly. In the Senate in the Parliament assembled: a sense what many Australians are asking is: The petition of the undersigned are concerned will the Commonwealth establish safeguards about the impact the Government’s second wave of to ensure that the quality and frequency of industrial relations changes on working Queens- regional airline services operated by Qantas landers and their families. and Ansett are not compromised by the entry Your petitioners call on the Senate to reject outright the Howard/Reith Workplace Relations of Virgin Australia? While the government Legislation Amendment (More Jobs, Better Pay) has made reassuring noises about the benefits Bill 1999. of competition and its professed commitment by Senator Ludwig (from 1,686 citizens). to rural and regional areas—and by implica- tion to more isolated cities such as Perth— Medicare: Naltrexone there has not yet been any real tangible action To the Honourable the President and Members of to match these words with particular regard to the Senate in Parliament assembled: ensuring equity for domestic airline travellers. We the undersigned believe the government The government needs to make clear its should allow the freedom of choice for injecting attitude towards the prospect of Virgin Aus- drug users to have government funded access to tralia as a fully foreign owned company. alternative detoxification programs. We urge careful (Time expired) and safe rapid detox treatments, such as Naltrexone, be publicly funded under Medicare and an increase Question resolved in the affirmative. in rehabilitation and counselling for drug addicts. PETITIONS by Senator Mason (from 35 citizens). The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged for Medicare: Naltrexone presentation as follows: To the Honourable the President and members of the Senate in Parliament assembled: Nuclear Waste We the undersigned believe the government To the Honourable the President and Members of should allow the freedom of choice for injecting the Senate in the Parliament assembled: drug users to have government funded access to The petition of the undersigned strongly opposes alternative detoxification programs. We urge careful any further attempts by the Australian Government and safe rapid detox treatments, such as Naltrexone, 11436 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 to be publicly funded under Medicare and an subsection 20(1) of the Fisheries Management Act increase in rehabilitation and counselling for drug 1991, be disallowed. addicts. Legal surveys indicate that 60 per cent funded methadone patients want to cease therapy. Senator Stott Despoja to move, on the If this result applies nationally this would suggest next day of sitting: that the Queensland government is imprisoned That the Senate— 15,000-20,000 people on methadone. We demand (a) recognises that the Government’s Internet the tools to set them free, as our right, with the censorship regime will commence operation highest priority and urgency. on 1 January 2000; by Senator Mason (from 148 citizens). (b) notes: Petitions received. (i) that 3 weeks prior to the commencement of the Internet censorship regime, no NOTICES industry code has yet been registered, Presentation (ii) the concerns of some Internet industry groups that neither the Australian Broad- Senator Murphy to move, on the next day casting Authority (ABA) nor the Govern- of sitting: ment has appropriately responded to That the time for the presentation of the report queries regarding the registration of of the Economics References Committee on the regional, or specialist, industry codes, operation of the Australian Taxation Office be (iii) that no details have yet been provided by extended to 17 February 2000. the ABA regarding the operation of the Senator Tierney to move, on the next day reporting and complaints mechanism, of sitting: (iv) that crucial details about the technical operation of the Internet censorship re- That the time for the presentation of the report gime, including notification mechanisms, of the Employment, Workplace Relations, Small have not yet been provided by the ABA, Business and Education References Committee on making it difficult, if not impossible, to the effectiveness of education and training pro- prepare for the commencement of the grams for indigenous Australians be extended to 9 regime, and March 2000. (v) that Internet content hosts and Internet Senator Ian Campbell to move, on the service providers will be subject to a next day of sitting: range of penalties, operating from the That paragraph (4) of the order of the Senate of date of commencement; and 30 November 1999 relating to estimates hearings (c) calls on the Government to repeal the be varied to add ‘Mid-year economic and fiscal Internet censorship legislation and replace outlook 1999-2000 (tabled 30 November 1999)’. it with a workable framework based on Senator Ian Campbell to move, on the education and responsibility. next day of sitting: Senator Conroy to move, three sitting days That the order of the Senate of 30 November hence: 1999 relating to estimates hearings be varied to That provisions 6.3 and 6.4 of Accounting provide that, in respect of the 1999-2000 additional Standard AASB1015, made under section 334 of estimates, the committee groupings for the hearings the Corporations Law, be disallowed. be modified as follows: Senator Bolkus to move, on the next day Group A of sitting: Omit: ‘Legal and Constitutional’ That the following matters be referred to the Substitute: ‘Economics’. Parliamentary Joint Committee on Native Title and Group B the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Land Fund for inquiry and report by the end of the second Omit: ‘Economics’ sitting week in April 2000: Substitute: ‘Legal and Constitutional’. (a) whether the finding of the Committee on the Senator Greig to move, on the next day of Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) that the Native Title Amendment sitting: Act 1998 is inconsistent with Australia’s That the Northern Prawn Fishery Amendment international legal obligations, in particular, Management Plan 1999 (No. NPF 02), made under the Convention on the Elimination of All Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11437

Forms of Racial Discrimination, is sustain- (a) the impact of the plan on the environmental able on the weight of informed opinion; sustainability of the Northern Prawn Fishery (b) what amendments are required to the Act, and overall fishing effort; and and what processes of consultation must be (b) the likely impact on the viability of existing followed in effecting those amendments, to prawn trawler operators and whether the ensure that Australia’s international obliga- plan will favour larger commercial opera- tions are complied with; and tors. (c) whether dialogue with the CERD on the Act COMMITTEES would assist in establishing a better-in- formed basis for amendment to the Act. Selection of Bills Committee Senator Bartlett to move, on the next day Report of sitting: Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.36 That there be laid on the table, no later than 4 p.m.)—I present the 21st report of 1999 of the pm on 6 March 2000, details of all legislative Selection of Bills Committee. changes that would be required to ensure the recognition and equal treatment of same-sex Ordered that the report be adopted. couples under all Commonwealth superannuation Senator CALVERT—I seek leave to have and taxation legislation. the report incorporated in Hansard. Senator Bartlett to move, on the next day Leave granted. of sitting: The report read as follows— That the provisions of the Northern Prawn Fishery Amendment Management Plan 1999 (No. SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE NPF 02), made under the Fisheries Management REPORT NO. 21 OF 1999 Act 1991 and tabled in the Senate on 24 November 1. The Committee met on 7 December 1999. 1999, be referred to the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee for inquiry 2. The committee resolved to recommend- and report by 7 March 2000, with particular (a) That the provisions of the following bill be reference to: referred to a committee:

Stage at which re- Legislation Bill title ferred committee Reporting date Customs Legislation Amend- immediately Legal and Constitutional 16 February 2000 ment (Criminal Sanctions and Other Measures) Bill 1999 (see appendix 1 for a statement of reasons for referral)

(b) That the following bill be referred to a committee:

Stage at which Legislation Bill title referred committee Reporting date Sydney Harbour Federation immediately Environment, Com- 7 March 2000 Trust Bill 1999 (see appendix munications, Informa- 2 for a statement of reasons tion Technology and for referral) the Arts

(c) That the following bills not be referred to . National Crime Authority Amendment Bill committees: 1999. The Committee recommends accordingly. . Appropriation (East Timor) Bill 1999-2000 3. The Committee deferred consideration of the . Farm Household Support Amendment Bill following bills to the next meeting: 1999 (deferred from meeting of 19 October 1999) 11438 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

. Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 10) 1999 Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- (deferred from meeting of 23 November 1999) sideration: . Customs Amendment (Anti-Radioactive Waste Upon introduction of the bill, the issues relating to Storage Dump) Bill 1999 the disposal and protection of the land that is no (deferred from meeting of 30 November 1999) longer required by the Department of Defence need . Albury-Wodonga Development Amendment to be considered, including issues of land conserva- Bill 1999 tion and heritage significance. The committee needs to examine the adequacy of the bill in ensuring the . Criminal Code Amendment (Application) Bill ongoing preservation of the environmental and 1999 heritage values of the Sydney Harbour foreshore . Criminal Code Amendment (Theft, Fraud, areas, and the necessity of maintaining public Bribery and Related Offences) Bill 1999 ownership of and access to those areas. . Gladstone Power Station Agreement (Repeal) Possible submission or evidence from: Bill 1999 . Therapeutic Goods Amendment Bill 1999. Defenders of the Sydney Harbour Foreshore 02 9487 2854 (Paul Calvert) Chair Mosman, Manly, Leichhardt and Hunters Hill local 8 December 1999 councils Nature Conservation Trust of NSW 02 9279 2466 National Trust NSW 02 9258 0123 Appendix 1 ‘Friends of Cockatoo Island’ Proposal to refer a bill to a committee Name of bill: Committee to which bill is to be referred: Customs Legislation Amendment (Criminal Sanc- Environment, Communications, Information Tech- tions and Other Measures) Bill 1999 nology and the Arts Legislation Committee Reasons for referral/principal issues for con- Possible hearing date(s): sideration Possible reporting date: March 2000 The bill was introduced on 24 November 1999. If the bill goes through the Senate this sitting period, (signed) it will be without the opportunity for public debate Vicki Bourne or parliamentary scrutiny. The bill introduces an external search procedure which may have potential Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member civil liberties ramifications. The parliament should have the opportunity of ensuring that the appropri- NOTICES ate safeguards are incorporated in the bill. Possible submission or evidence from: Postponement Committee to which bill is to be referred: Items of business were postponed as fol- Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation lows: Committee Business of the Senate notice of motion no. 2 Possible hearing date(s): standing in the name of Senator Brown for today, Possible reporting date: relating to the reference of matters to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Commit- signed tee, postponed till 16 February 2000. Kerry O’Brien General business notice of motion no. 340 Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member standing in the name of Senator Allison for today, proposing an order for the production of Commonwealth-State agreements, postponed till Appendix 2 9 December 1999. Proposal to refer a bill to a committee General business notice of motion no. 398 standing in the name of Senator Stott Despoja for Name of bill: today, relating to human rights abuses in Kosovo, Sydney Harbour Federation Trust Bill 1999 postponed till 9 December 1999. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11439

COMMITTEES COMMITTEES Environment, Communications, Scrutiny of Bills Committee Information Technology and the Arts Extension of Time References Committee Motion (by Senator Cooney) agreed to: Referral That the time for the presentation of the report Motion (by Senator Allison)—as amended, of the Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills by leave—agreed to: on search and entry provisions in Commonwealth legislation be extended to 16 February 2000. That the following matters be referred to the Environment, Communications, Information Tech- Senators’ Interests Committee nology and the Arts References Committee for Resolution inquiry (to commence not before 31 March 2000) and report by 31 October 2000: Motion (by Senator O’Brien, at the request (a) an examination of the allocation of funding of Senator Denman) agreed to: from the Commonwealth’s $4.5 million fund That the Senate resolution of 26 August 1997 for electro-magnetic radiation research and relating to the declaration of gifts intended for the public information; Senate be modified as follows: (b) a review of current Australian and interna- Omit paragraph (1)(b), substitute: tional research into electro-magnetic radi- ation and its effects as it applies to telecom- (b) A gift is to be taken as intended to be a gift munications equipment, including but not to the Senate or the Parliament where: limited to, mobile telephones; (i) the donor expressly states that the gift is (c) an examination of the current Australian to the Senate or to the Parliament; or Interim Standard [AS/NZS 2772.1 (Int): (ii) the identity of the donor, the nature of the 1998], as it applies to telecommunications; occasion, or the intrinsic significance or (d) an examination of efforts to set an Austral- value of the gift is such that it is reason- ian Standard dealing with electro-magnetic able to assume that the gift was intended emissions; and for the Senate or the Parliament. (e) an examination of the merits of the transfer (ba) In the absence of express intent, it will of the responsibility for setting a new not be assumed that a gift was intended Australian standard for electro-magnetic for the Senate or the Parliament where emissions to the Australian Radiation Pro- the gift has a value below the following tection and Nuclear Safety Agency. thresholds: (i) $500 when given by an official govern- GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOOD: ment source; or LABELLING (ii) $200 when given by a private person or Motion (by Senator Stott Despoja) agreed non-government body on any occasion to: when the senator is present in his or her capacity as a senator, Senate office-holder That the Senate— or delegation leader or member. (a) notes that: (bb) In the absence of express intent, it will (i) the third biennial World Trade Organi- not be assumed that a gift was intended zation (WTO) Ministerial Conference for the Senate or the Parliament merely Seattle meeting of the WTO commenced because the gift has a value above those on 28 November 1999, and thresholds. (ii) European Union members have agreed to Scrutiny of Bills Committee require labels for food containing greater than one per cent genetically-modified Report DNA; and Senator COONEY (Victoria) (3.39 p.m.)— (b) urges the Australian delegation to the meet- I present the 20th report of 1999 of the Stand- ing to recognise Australian public support ing Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills. for the labelling of genetically-modified Ordered that the report be printed. foods and support the right of individual countries to pursue labelling regimes. Senator COONEY—I move: 11440 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

That the Senate take note of the report. man but a man who is worthy of great praise. This is the last report of the year and of the I thank him and the staff for their assistance. century, and of the millennium by some We look forward to scrutinising legislation in counts, and I think it appropriate that I make the next year, the next century and the next some mention of people who have contributed millennium. to the work of the committee over the year. Question resolved in the affirmative. First of all, I want to thank the members of the committee—my Deputy Chair, Senator Community Affairs References Crane, and Senators Crossin, Ferris, Mason Committee and Murray—for the productive and commit- Report ted spirit in which the committee has worked and for the considerable attention to detail Senator CROWLEY (South Australia) which is necessary. They bring a sense of (3.44 p.m.)—I present the report of the fairness and of what is a proper process to the Community Affairs References Committee consideration of the legislation that comes entitled Rocking the cradle: a report into before the committee. It makes for reports childbirth procedures, together with the which I think are very successful in the light Hansard record of the committee’s proceed- of that approach. ings, submissions and additional information. Secondly, I want to thank the ministers and Ordered that the report be printed. parliamentary secretaries for the comprehen- Senator CROWLEY—I move: sive and expeditious responses that they have That the Senate take note of the report. made when the committee has raised issues. That has been very good, and I want to I am very pleased to table this report called acknowledge that those responses, together Rocking the Cradle, a report on childbirth with the letters that are written, improve both practices and procedures in Australia at the the quality of the legislation dealt with and end of the millennium. I suppose I could say the quality of the debate about that legislation. I would rather like to go out of the century rocking something, if not the boat at least the There is no Bill of Rights in Australia. We cradle. are the only English-speaking country of our particular kind that does not have a Bill of Government senators interjecting— Rights. England, Canada, the United States Senator CROWLEY—Thank you very and New Zealand do. In so far as there is much, gentlemen, I am extremely pleased that scrutiny of legislation at a parliamentary level, you should come in, suckers, on that one— it takes place in this committee, the Scrutiny absolutely wonderful. But I have to also say, of Bills Committee, and in the Regulations colleagues across the chamber, that it allows and Ordinances Committee, which is chaired me to at least admit a certain consistency. by Senator Coonan. Civil life, civil rights and First of all, I want to thank the secretariat— civil liberties have been considerably en- Elton Humphrey, Christine McDonald, Leonie hanced by these two committees. There is Peake, Ingrid Zappe, Peter Short and, in probably still a need for a Bill of Rights, but particular, for the large bulk of the work, I think these two committees do a sterling Mary Lindsay . I would also particularly like job. to thank the many hospitals where we held That work has much to do with the efforts public hearings. Unlike many other inquiries, put in by the counsel who guides the commit- we held our hearings in the hospitals and that tee, Professor Jim Davis from the ANU Law allowed us then to very quickly visit the School. I want to thank him for his work birthing centres and have a look at the neo- during the year. I particularly want to thank natal intensive care wards. There is nothing the secretariat, Margaret Lindeman, Sue like going to see for getting our head around Blunden and James Warmenhoven. He has the latest developments and to see also the been put last in these notes I have, which care and effort with which people are assisted were prepared by him. He is a very modest in childbirth in this country. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11441

However, there are some points that em- practice guidelines that can justify doing erged during this inquiry which are very caesarean sections on request or on demand. important and do need consideration. First of On the evidence we were given, it is not the all, the report finds evidence that confirms the best procedure for a babe to be born by caesarean section rate in Australia is very caesarean section; it is better if the baby can high—unacceptably high, up there with the be born vaginally, and for the majority of highest in the world. It varies considerably women—over 70 per cent of babies that are from hospital to hospital. It varies consider- born are spontaneous vaginal births in this ably from state to state and it varies signifi- country—the problems are minimal. cantly as to whether you are a public patient What we were concerned about was the or have private insurance. It is much higher number of times caesarean sections were done for people with private insurance and all the for the convenience—it is said—of the mother evidence given to the committee showed that and certainly for the convenience of the the numbers of emergency caesarean sections doctor. We did not find either of those rea- were not too different between public and sons sufficient justification. In the end I private patients; it was the elective caesarean conceded to my medical self and decided that section in the privately insured patients that it is better that we have best practice guide- made most of the difference. lines that assist all obstetricians and all The evidence provided to the committee did mothers in making the decision how best to not justify that difference. While just about all have a baby delivered. There is much more witnesses providing information might have that could be said. I do urge people to read talked about the women being older—that the report for discussion on this matter and to they tended to be older having a first baby, stay to listen to my good colleague Senator that there might have been previous complica- Gibbs, who will deal with it further. tions or what have you—we had no evidence We were also concerned about questions that confirmed justification for the difference like this. If a mother demands a caesarean between the privately insured and the publicly section, she may indeed in the end be provid- insured in elective caesarean section. We ed with a caesarean section but, if she should regard that as a significant concern. ask to have a baby born in a birthing centre, We found on the evidence that the only she is still regarded as distinctly odd by many thing that lowered caesarean section rates people, particularly some obstetricians who anywhere in the country has been the inten- are not inclined to favour birthing centres or tion or the attitude of a senior obstetrician, midwifery management of child care. The either in a hospital or in a region or in a evidence that we got suggests many mothers state—as in Tasmania, where we were told really appreciated those options. They would that, or, for example, in the Queen Elizabeth like to see more birthing centres particularly Hospital in South Australia, where doctors set in hospitals. That is the thrust of childbirth in out to lower the caesarean section rate and did Australia: there are some—a very small so with no increase in maternal mortality or percentage—who prefer home births but the morbidity or danger to babes either. So it is majority would like to have their babies born quite clear that caesarean section rates are with minimal intervention in birthing centres. somewhat arbitrary and we believe that there In Brisbane, in one hospital we were told is no real justification for them. there are so many people wanting to have I certainly found myself dealing quite often their babies in birthing centres that there is a with the challenging line: ‘Well, if a woman ballot each month for which women will really wants a caesarean section, why can’t actually get a place in a birthing centre. The she have one if she demands it?’ I found community want it—they are very pleased myself torn between my woman self, on one with it. It is satisfactory and it is safe. There side, and my medical self, on the other, and is no increased mortality for mothers but there I had quite an interesting debate in the back is much less intervention, so there is an of my head. But I must say that I find no best argument that says there is decreased morbidi- 11442 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 ty for mothers and that babies are born with ence addressing this, but time and time again the same amount of safety and so on. And yet witnesses told us that the cost of medical the provision of birthing centres has not kept insurance premiums for obstetricians and for up with demand, and we urge governments to general practitioners practising obstetrics was see that more centres are available so that so high and their fear of litigation was so real women can exercise that end of their option. that many doctors are now withdrawing from We were very concerned about the very the practice of childbirth. We believe that that large increase in the number of ultrasound is a major concern, and when we sought tests being done and, on the evidence provid- figures—either from the committee or from ed to the committee, in many cases ultrasound specially commissioned work by Fiona Tito— tests are being done with no or very little in all cases we were unable to get the infor- medical benefit. So we have urged that this mation that we needed to make serious deci- very expensive area of antenatal care and sions about medical indemnity. Even the antenatal screening be thoroughly examined. AMA and members of MDOs were not able It is expensive: the Health Insurance Commis- to get that information. It is time for a full sion figures put the cost of ultrasound at inquiry into the question of medical indemnity about $38 million—more than a third of the so that the reserves and the practices are open cost of all health insurance figures for the to scrutiny and are transparent. The huge whole of birth. differences in premiums paid—for example, about $42,000 for an obstetrician in New Of the whole cost of birth—the whole cost South Wales compared to about $27,000 for of antenatal care and childbirth—more than a an obstetrician in Victoria, compared to about third goes down to the ultrasound screening $11,000 for an obstetrician in Tasmania— in the antenatal period. Many witnesses said make no sense at all. We believe we have that it is no more than a very expensive early some explanation for it but it is not at all baby photo. I think that there is no doubt that sufficient to explain why those differences are ultrasound is a wonderful test if properly used there. We believe it is time for a proper with adequately trained providers of the inquiry. service or the test, with adequately trained people to read it and with some guidelines My colleague Senator Knowles is going to about the safety of ultrasound. But many of say in her dissenting report that she thought those criteria are not in place. You also need this report was unnecessary as it deals with to know how to use the test so as to get good matters of professional practice or matters for benefit from it. We also appreciated that the state. Any number of witnesses disagreed many people wanted to have the ultrasound with Senator Knowles and said they found but were not prepared for or counselled about this inquiry was absolutely important because the consequences of discovering from the test it is time for national leadership to focus on that maybe there was something wrong with setting some guidelines, getting some best their babe. practice criteria and dealing with the recom- We were also very concerned that, despite mendations from five excellent reports in very the improvements in maternal and child health recent years, including one by the NHMRC. and childbirth in this country, the Aboriginal Almost none of the recommendations have maternal mortality rate is still twice that of been acted on by either state or federal gov- non-Aboriginal mothers, and the infant mor- ernments. If we want to continue being up tality rate for Aboriginal babies is three times there with the best and to improve health for that of non-Aboriginal babies. Although it has Australian women, we must act on this report. dramatically improved from the five times (Time expired) figure in the early 1980s, it is totally unac- Senator KNOWLES (Western Australia) ceptable to have figures of that height at this (3.54 p.m.)—Senator Crowley is quite right— time. I am going to say precisely that for the very We were also very concerned about medical reasons that she just said, that is, there have indemnity. We did not have a term of refer- been five reports into this issue in recent Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11443 years, and to have another inquiry at huge I would suggest—who said, ‘Why are you expense to the taxpayer was considered by doing this again?’ And all I could say was, government senators to be completely and ‘Hear, hear! Why are we doing it again?’ As utterly unnecessary. Much of what was I said, I do not wish to in any way belittle the considered was of concern; there is no deny- case that has been put by so many people or ing that and the government senators do not their concerns, but I do submit that it is deny that. There are areas of concern regard- beyond the jurisdiction of the federal govern- ing childbirth in Australia. But we must ment to have impact on so many of the things remember that the overwhelming number of that this committee sought to inquire into. births in Australia are safe, both for the child Therefore, the government senators have put and for the mother. We were concerned that in a minority report accordingly. there were valuable resources of this parlia- One of the other things that we put into the ment going to an inquiry which essentially minority report was that there has been a was going to saw sawdust because, as Senator complete disregard shown to so many govern- Crowley has quite rightly identified, there ment initiatives, particularly those for people have been five reports already undertaken. in rural and remote Australia. I could not get The other part of this inquiry that caused over the fact that such a major initiative as government senators concern was the mere the federal government putting in $8.2 billion fact that it sought to delve into areas that to fly-in-fly-out female GPs servicing women were not the responsibility or under the living in rural and remote Australia could be jurisdiction of the federal government. Fund- overlooked by the majority, and they in turn ing for hospitals comes from the state govern- recommend that money be put into such a ments. There are so many of these areas. It is program. That was announced in the budget quite outlandish for medically unqualified not so long ago and yet it was overlooked, as members of parliament, at any stage, to try to was the fact that they will visit up to 160 say that they know better than a doctor. I locations nationally about four times a year. believe the relationship between a mother and The other thing that was overlooked was her practitioner is paramount, above political that this service is among a raft of federal interference. government initiatives funded by a $200 While we might all agree that the number million budget commitment to improve access of surgical interventions in Australia is high, to medical care in rural and regional Austral- I do not believe it is up to senators to say it ia. No-one, least of all the minister or the is too high and that they are unnecessary and government, denies that there has been a to override the decisions of medical practi- problem in the past with the servicing of tioners. For example, there is a recommenda- people in rural and regional communities. We tion saying there should be no more than 15 are setting about pouring the money into per cent caesarean sections in a year. What I those communities that Labor refused to pour automatically said was, ‘What happens after in during its 13 years of government. That has 15 per cent has been achieved?’ Do you just been contained in the budgets but overlooked say to someone who is about have a baby, in the majority report. I think that is a pity. ‘Excuse me, can you wait until next year But, as I said, that is the position of the because the allocation of 15 per cent has been government senators. We believe that the met?’ So many of the recommendations are federal government should mind its business very silly in terms of their practical imple- while the state governments mind theirs but mentation. while, more importantly, patients have com- I do not for one moment say that a number munication and contact with their medical of the issues were not important, but so much practitioners. of the evidence that has been overlooked in Senator GIBBS (Queensland) (4.00 p.m.)— the majority report stated that this inquiry was I rise to speak on the report Rocking the unnecessary. In fact, we had witnesses in cradle: a report into childbirth procedures. Perth—highly qualified medical practitioners, On listening to Senator Knowles’s speech, I 11444 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 would like to remind her that the terms of The committee heard that many indigenous reference for this committee were approved women have to travel long distances to by the Senate. The Community Affairs Refer- receive medical attention, further exacerbating ences Committee held six days of public the problem. They will visit a doctor or hearings in Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney, hospital once and usually not return because Adelaide, Brisbane and Perth. We received they see the hospital as a place to go when almost 200 submissions, which came from a you are sick, and they do not consider that wide range of organisations and individuals, being pregnant is being sick; they view including hospitals, health services, practition- pregnancy as a natural part of life. One of the ers, independent and hospital based midwives, specific recommendations that the committee welfare and peak organisations, and individual made to combat this problem was that the mothers. Office of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Over the past 10 years there have been Health provide recurrent funding to ensure inquiries and reports about childbirth services continuity for existing antenatal programs for in New South Wales, Victoria, Western Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women Australia and one from the National Health and to establish new programs in areas of and Medical Research Council. Obviously, need. childbirth is an important issue in this coun- The committee received evidence that try. Unfortunately, despite there being so Australian women value safety during birth many inquiries, few of the recommendations for their babies and themselves above all the various reports have made have been other considerations. For that reason, the large acted upon. With more than a quarter of a majority of expectant mothers choose to birth million babies born in Australia every year, in hospitals. While most women acknowledge childbirth is a very important part of the the contribution of the medical profession to health of this nation. Childbirth is the major the low mortality rates, they are concerned reason for hospitalisation in Australia, and it about increasing levels of medicalisation of accounts for the highest number of occupied childbirth. Mortality rates are relatively bed days. It is important that we make child- uniform across the country, with the exception birth as safe as possible for both mother and of the indigenous population. child. The rates of intervention, however, vary. The committee found that childbirth in Intervention rates are highest among women Australia is very safe, although maternal and who have private health insurance, women infant mortality rates are significantly higher who give birth in major tertiary hospitals and than average in indigenous communities. women attended by specialist obstetricians. Across Australia there are about 5.3 maternal The rates vary by state, with South Australia deaths per 100,000 births and approximately recording the highest rate of caesarean sec- 5.9 infant deaths per 1,000 live births. In tion. The committee was especially concerned indigenous communities, the death rate for by the high rate of elective caesarean section mothers is double and the death rate for in Australia for which, the evidence suggests, infants is triple that of the non-indigenous there is little or no medical justification. The community. Some of the reasons for those committee received no evidence that justified problems were best summed up in evidence the significant variation in caesarean section given to the committee in Adelaide by a rates between states, between hospitals and number of Aboriginal community health care between public and private and patients. workers. The committee did receive some evidence Those health care workers told the commit- that caesareans were on the increase because tee that past policies had created a fear in of a rise in defensive medicine—a practice indigenous women about going to hospital. whereby doctors provide a service that is not There was also a feeling of isolation because needed because of a concern about possible Aboriginal women were amongst people they litigation should a problem with the birth did not know, thus creating a sense of shame. occur. The committee is of the strong view Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11445 that there is a need for national leadership to funding is spent on ultrasound scanning. The reduce caesarean section rates. The committee committee found that the most recent figures supports the development of best practice from the Health Insurance Commission, which guidelines on interventions and other aspects excludes services provided by hospital doctors of maternal and infant care. Such guidelines to public patients in public hospitals, show would improve the quality of care, reduce the that in the period July 1998 to June 1999 use of unnecessary, ineffective services and expenditure was $38.6 million on ultrasound, ensure that care is cost effective. almost all of it routine scanning; $27.6 There is also concern among the committee million on labour and delivery, including members about the polarisation of views that complex births, caesarean sections and im- emerged during the course of the inquiry. mediate postnatal care; and $30 million on Some witnesses indicated that caesarean antenatal visits. sections and other interventions should be Quite a few witnesses voiced the same available to women on demand, regardless of concerns as the Royal North Shore Hospital, any medical indication of need. Other wit- which told the committee: nesses felt that all forms of medical interven- Of particular concern is the cost of numerous tion were overused. Many people recognised ultrasound examinations. It is our current experi- that an intermediate position was likely to ence that it is not unusual for women to have prove most beneficial to women. The commit- undergone three ultrasound examinations before tee heard that, where cooperation between their pregnancy reaches 20 weeks of gestation. midwives and specialists is common, The committee believes the use of ultrasound women’s satisfaction with the birth experience screening needs to be evaluated as soon as was enhanced without sacrificing safe and possible. The women of Australia need to successful outcomes. know that this procedure is being used proper- ly within clear best practice guidelines. We found that the best examples of this Lowering the use, and therefore the cost, of middle ground occurred in birth centres. In ultrasound screening may provide a source for birth centres, women considered to be at low funding in other antenatal, birth and postnatal risk gave birth in home-like surroundings, support areas, but I stress that the first step is attended by midwives but with specialist a full and proper evaluation of ultrasound support available should problems arise screening. The committee was also concerned during birth. Everywhere the committee went, about the increasing trend to discharge new we discovered birth centres that were oversub- mothers and infants from hospital early. scribed. They were full to overflowing be- Evidence provided to the committee suggested cause of the desire by women for a less that, rather than reducing health care costs, medical approach to childbirth, without early discharge may actually increase them in sacrificing the benefits of medical advances the longer term. as they became available. Unfortunately, it seems, there is not much effort being made to In summary, let me say that the 35 recom- move resources from expensive interventions, mendations made in this report will not including caesarean sections, to birth centres. provide all the answers. The government, the community and expectant mothers in particu- The committee found that the current lar need to maintain interest in the area and arrangements for antenatal, birth and postnatal to continue to debate, discuss and discover care increased the fragmentation of services. what practices are the best for mother and The existing funding arrangements break that child. care into episodes centred on various care providers. The evidence we received indicated Question resolved in the affirmative. that women would receive much better out- Additional Information comes if they had continuity of carers Senator CROWLEY (South Australia) throughout the process. (4.10 p.m.)—I present additional information There was also disturbing evidence that a received by the Community Affairs Refer- significant and increasing proportion of ences Committee, relating to the committee’s 11446 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 inquiry into proposals for changes to the Audit Report No. 47 investigated the management welfare system. of Commonwealth guarantees, indemnities and letters of comfort. This was a follow-up to a Public Accounts and Audit Committee previous audit conducted in 1996. The more recent audit found that there had been considerable Report improvement in the guidance provided to agencies, Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (4.10 and also in the management of these instruments by Commonwealth agencies. The JCPAA held a public p.m.)—On behalf of the Joint Committee of hearing at which several Commonwealth agencies Public Accounts and Audit, chaired by Sena- informed the Committee of relevant developments. tor Gibson, I present report No. 370, entitled We note that there is room for further improvement Defence life cycle costing: Commonwealth in the management of these instruments, and we guarantees, indemnities and letters of com- recommend that the ANAO monitor the outcomes fort—Review of Auditor-General’s reports of the managed funds policy. 1997-98 Fourth Quarter. I seek leave to move It is gratifying to note that the overall level of a motion in relation to the report and to Commonwealth exposure for these instruments fell incorporate the tabling statement in Hansard. from $415 billion in 1996 to $215 billion in 1997. Leave granted. May I conclude, Madam President, by thanking on behalf of the Committee those people who contri- Senator CALVERT—I move: buted their time and expertise to the Committee’s That the Senate take note of the report. review hearing. I am also indebted to my colleagues on the Com- The tabling statement read as follows— mittee who have dedicated much time and effort to Madam President, this is our Review of Auditor- reviewing these Auditor-General’s reports. As well, General’s Reports for the fourth quarter of 1997-98. I would like to thank the members of the secretariat The Committee held a public hearing in May this who were involved in the inquiry, Dr Margot year to discuss these issues with relevant Common- Kerley, the Committee secretary, Ms Rose wealth agencies. I will briefly discuss each issue in Verspaandonk, Ms Tiana Gray, and Ms Maria turn. Pappas. The Audit Report on life cycle costing at the Madam President, I commend the Report to the Department of Defence found that there was Senate. considerable scope for Defence to further promote Question resolved in the affirmative. and implement its policy of whole-of-life costing. Our report encourages Defence to implement this AUSTRALIAN FEDERAL POLICE policy more rigorously. LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL Sound costing is a crucial basis for good decision- 1999 making. This is particularly relevant for Defence, which has a significant asset base. Report of Legal and Constitutional The Defence policy accords with Commonwealth Legislation Committee procurement guidelines that purchasing be efficient Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (4.11 and effective. However, the JCPAA agrees with the p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Payne, I present ANAO that its life cycle costing policy should be the report of the Legal and Constitutional promoted and implemented more effectively. Legislation Committee on the provisions of At Defence, life cycle costs are estimated to be the Australian Federal Police Legislation between two and three times the value of capital Amendment Bill 1999, together with submis- costs. The objective of life cycle costing analysis is to facilitate decisions that achieve maximum sions and Hansard record of proceedings. value for money over the whole life of an asset. Ordered that the report be printed. Because acquisition costs at Defence are so sub- stantial, it is vital that the Commonwealth is FAMILY LAW AMENDMENT BILL assured that tax payers’ money is spent as effec- 1999 tively as possible. While the Committee under- stands that life cycle costing is not always easy or Report of the Legal and Constitutional cheap, we nevertheless urge Defence to implement Legislation Committee it to the best of its ability. In particular, we urge Defence to require tenderers to make contractual Senator McKIERNAN (Western Australia) commitments regarding life cycle costs. (4.11 p.m.)—by leave—I present additional Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11447 comments for inclusion in the report of the nourishes our ancient soils; it shelters and sustains Legal and Constitutional Legislation Commit- native wildlife; it protects streams and wetlands, tee on the provisions of the Family Law estuaries and coastlines; it absorbs carbon dioxide and emits oxygen. Amendment Bill 1999. Conversely, the depletion and degradation of native Ordered that the report and the document be vegetation communities threatens the long term printed. health and productive capacity of Australian landscapes. Destruction of native vegetation is the MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS single biggest cause of biodiversity loss; it is a primary driver of land degradation, salinity and Bushcare declining water quality; and it is among the single Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— biggest components of our net Greenhouse gas Minister for Industry, Science and Resources) emissions. (4.12 p.m.)—by leave—I table a statement on Land clearing is a central issue but there is much Bushcare and seek leave to incorporate the more to it than clearing alone. statement in Hansard. Clearing is compounded by more insidious, wide- Leave granted. spread, incremental losses of remnant native vegetation. Grazing pressure, old age, insects, The statement read as follows— disease, weeds, rising watertables and firewood The Bushcare program has been working for the gathering are undermining the quality of bush last two and a half years to achieve two key goals remaining in rural landscapes. of the Natural Heritage Trust—a revegetation rate Similarly in cities and towns, the precious remnants that is greater than vegetation loss and an im- of native bush are depleted, fragmented and provement in the quality and condition of degraded incrementally. Australia’s native vegetation. It has provided unprecedented support to the Australian community The Solutions to protect and plant native vegetation. The solutions to the decline in native vegetation Halfway through the first phase of the Bushcare cover, and the environmental problems stemming Program and the Natural Heritage Trust Partnership from that decline, are simple: land clearing should agreements it is now clear that to achieve these be reduced very significantly; revegetation of objectives we will need more effective support by native vegetation communities should be enhanced; the States for integrated regional planning of and a great improvement is required in the protec- natural resource management and control of native tion and management of the native vegetation vegetation clearance. which does remain in rural and urban landscapes. Against this background this is an opportune time Approach and achievements to date to review progress, to elicit the lessons learned, and The Natural Heritage Trust and Bushcare to develop new directions. These longer-term directions will be refined as the Government The Natural Heritage Trust is the largest investment analyses the findings of the Mid-Term Review of in the environment ever made by an Australian the Natural Heritage Trust in coming months. But Government. It is tangible recognition of the to maintain momentum, there are steps that should fundamental importance of natural capital, which be taken now to further improve the program: underwrites other forms of wealth. . Effective State based constraints on broadacre The Natural Heritage Trust marks the point at land clearing; which Australia finally started re-investing in natural capital. . Institutional reform to ensure implementation through integrated catchment management; Reflecting the centrality of native vegetation . Building on regional strategies through new management for many environmental issues, the ‘devolved grants’; Bushcare program is among the Trust’s largest components, with almost $350 million in Trust . Establishing new incentive mechanisms such as funding over six years. revolving funds; and Bushcare has an historic and ambitious goal: to . Providing information to communities through reverse the long term decline in the quality and the internet. extent of Australia’s native vegetation cover by the The Challenge year 2001. This goal is pursued through three Australia’s native vegetation is one of the richest complementary forms of investment: and most fundamental elements of our extraordi- . Direct investment in on-ground projects at a nary natural heritage. Native vegetation binds and community level; 11448 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

. Investment in institutional reform aims to im- controlling feral animals and weeds, and putting prove decision-making and support for better back some of the vegetation which their forebears, vegetation management at all levels; and and in some cases they themselves, have removed. . Investment to build community capacity to Despite the leap in community awareness over improve native vegetation management. recent years, there remains a great thirst for infor- A central feature in the delivery of Bushcare has mation at a community level, and for hands-on been the Natural Heritage Trust ‘One Stop Shop’ skills and technical support. There also remain process. It enables community groups anywhere in significant areas where the knowledge base is Australia to apply for funding through an integrated patchy or weak. Moreover, some of the natural process, with community-based assessment of their resource management issues Australia faces are of proposals at regional and state levels. such scale and complexity that it is unreasonable to expect community groups alone to tackle them Bushcare has funded more than 1800 projects effectively through small-scale local projects. through the Trust’s One Stop Shop, in which it has invested over $127 million to date. About 70% of The problem of dryland salinity is perhaps the best this funding has been invested directly in on-ground example. Salinity is a symptom of inappropriate works to improve native vegetation management. land use and management, often over large areas and long timeframes. Solutions to it are likely to A great diversity of projects is being supported. For involve far more significant changes in land example: management practices than hitherto thought neces- In tackling the daunting problem of salinity in the sary. Western Australian wheatbelt, the Trust is funding We can broadly identify that large parts of south- a project in the North Stirling area to protect 1,700 west and south-east Australia require large-scale hectares of remnant bushland, of which more than revegetation to help deal with dryland salinity. 300 hectares is habitat for threatened species. More There is a large overlap between areas that have than 330 hectares of revegetation using locally been cleared in the past, have moderate to high sourced native species has already been re-estab- salinity risk, have potential for commercial refores- lished, protected by 1,270 kilometres of fencing; tation and are in need of revegetation to restore In South Australia, to support the clearing legisla- biodiversity conservation values. The design of tion introduced during the 1980s, Bushcare has appropriate incentive structures and integrated funded the protection of more than 90,500 hectares program delivery mechanisms involving the com- of high quality bushland covered by statutory heri- munity and lifting its levels of participation at the tage agreements; regional scale will be crucial to generate the invest- ment necessary to achieve the scale of revegetation Government’s effort in urban areas is exemplified envisaged. In this way regions obtain a more by Victoria’s Metropolitan Vegetation Works diverse economic base, farmers get an alternative project which focuses on revegetation activities to source of income, and Australians get a significant prevent land and water degradation in high-priority improvement in environmental outcomes. areas along streams and to create wildlife corridors around greater Melbourne. Bushcare funds are Broad scale community participation is critical to helping 47 community groups to establish 110,000 increasing momentum in the transition towards new trees and shrubs in 27 separate projects. more sustainable land management practices. Through thousands of local projects, the Natural Building community capacity Heritage Trust has provided extra resources, Natural resources are sustained or otherwise encouragement and technical support to help through the cumulative impact of the countless community groups to invest in their own natural everyday decisions and actions taken by those with heritage. Around 60% of Bushcare projects are for direct responsibility for the land including farmers, less than $20,000 per year, and 75% of Bushcare indigenous communities, municipalities, govern- projects to date are being undertaken by voluntary ment agencies and utility companies. The Bushcare community groups. program recognises that attitudes, knowledge, skills Bushcare has also invested in projects which are and capacities of the people taking these decisions national in scope, aimed at enhancing the overall are crucial. capacity of the Australian community to improve The Australian landcare movement is unique in its native vegetation management. These strategic combination of grassroots voluntary community national projects include: FloraBank, which has effort with technical and financial support from developed a national framework and protocols for government and increasingly the private sector. collection, storage and distribution of native seed; Landcare, Bushcare, Rivercare and Dunecare and the new national Atlas of Australian Birds, groups are cleaning up the rivers and beaches, involving thousands of volunteers generating a stabilising eroding banks and dunes, recreating national overview and important insights into trends wildlife corridors and restoring wetlands. They are in the quality of habitat across Australia. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11449

Bushcare-funded research has also enhanced our exemption from, rates payable on land managed for overall capacity to manage native vegetation more conservation values. strategically, more effectively, and at less cost. A fine example is the Johnstone Shire Council’s Research projects are giving us a much better Rate Rebate and Conservation Agreement Scheme. knowledge base on issues such as more effective This Bushcare project aims to develop voluntary incentives for conservation on private lands; conservation initiatives and agreements with private opportunities for local government to conserve landholders for all critical habitat areas within the native vegetation; legislation in States and Territor- shire. By the end of the project 2000-3000 hectares ies that facilitates or constrains conservation of critical habitat in the Wet Tropics will have been behaviour; and potential tax incentives for the protected and enhanced. Conservation agreements protection of native vegetation, to name a few. with landholders are tied to the Shire’s planning Bushcare has also catalysed improved native scheme and involve the rezoning of the area vegetation management on land managed by covered by the conservation agreement into a Aboriginal people. For example Bushcare funding Conservation Zone. Landholders are offered a has enabled the Anangu-Pitjantjatjara Land Man- rebate on the general rates applicable to the allot- agement group to institute a program of capacity ment, and Council undertakes the rezoning process building for traditional owners. The Community at no cost to the landholder. Johnstone Shire is Ranger project is developing a Property Manage- committed to continue the program after Trust ment Planning process that will be used across all funding ceases. Anangu-Pitjantjatjara lands (which make up 14 % The ongoing economic incentive provided to of South Australia). The project is currently landholders through such schemes is highly sym- implementing a program of traditional indigenous bolic, recognising their contribution to the wider land and vegetation management practices, rehabili- public good. It is also practical in helping to offset tating land and controlling feral animals and weeds. long-term management costs. The need for better incentives A regulatory bottom line Ninety-three percent of the Australian continent lies Under the Natural Heritage Trust Partnership outside formal conservation reserves. On the vast Agreements, all State and Territories have commit- majority of this land, much of it privately owned ted to prevent any clearing of endangered ecologi- or managed, conservation of biodiversity is not the cal communities, any clearing which changes the primary land use or management objective. In most conservation status of a vegetation community, and circumstances it is not possible to obtain a cash any clearing which is inconsistent with the sustain- flow from conservation. Further, taking steps to able management of biodiversity at a regional scale. conserve biodiversity on private land often imposes on landholders a direct cost or loss of opportunity These are impressive commitments, which make an to profit. And because many of the benefits arising historic pledge to improve management of our from the conservation of native vegetation accrue natural resources. To further embed these agree- off-site and to the public as a whole, it is often ments the Commonwealth is working with States difficult for conservation to compete with other and Territories to establish a national framework land use options that provide direct economic within which these commitments can be met. returns. Through the Australia and New Zealand Environ- As a consequence, conservation remains under- ment & Conservation Council (ANZECC, the valued and under-provided in the market place in Council of Environment Ministers), the Common- which traditional goods and services are traded. wealth and State and Territory governments have developed a National Framework for the Manage- Governments can support the conservation of native ment and Monitoring of Australia’s Native Vegeta- vegetation on private lands through the removal of tion. It sets out the national consensus on best disincentives and the creation and provision of practice arrangements in regulation and also incentives, to a level commensurate with the public planning, incentives, monitoring and evaluation. good. Through such mechanisms, the costs of The framework will encourage cooperation in biodiversity conservation and land restoration can establishing a comprehensive platform for institu- be shared appropriately between individual tional reform. landholders, the local community and society as a But collective action between Governments can whole. take us only part of the way. A clear lesson from The most common form of incentive used to date the early years of Bushcare is that the national goal has been grants, such as the majority of community of a net gain in the quality and extent of native projects funded through the One Stop Shop. Other vegetation cover cannot be achieved in the absence forms of incentives on a more limited scale include of effective controls on broadscale land clearing in assistance for local councils to introduce differen- all jurisdictions. This is not something that can be tial rating schemes, which allow a reduction in, or delivered by landcare groups, or bird observers, or 11450 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 committed individual landholders. It is the business read. They also make it easy for applicants to get of State and Territory governments. help or extra information if they need it. Further actions and new emphasis This year has also seen an improvement in the Improved regional action through Devolved delivery of cheques to community groups. This has Grants been possible with the commitment and cooperation of all parties. The Government will continue to Having successfully supported the thousands of seek improvement in this area. landcare groups around Australia to restore and conserve native vegetation, the next great challenge But to obtain maximum value for the Government’s is to assist landholders who are not members of investment in the Natural Heritage Trust, increased landcare groups to undertake similarly important emphasis will be given to funding participants in work. A key vehicle to assist such landholders will larger scale, regional projects which are under- be ‘devolved grant’ projects, including fencing pinned by integrated natural resource management incentive schemes and bush corridor revegetation planning at a scale in which the community is projects. Devolved grants enable a regionally based capable of addressing the key issues. organisation to administer Bushcare funds to assist many individual landholders to carry out works on Bush for Greenhouse their own properties that deliver regional priorities. Addressing climate change creates profound For grant recipients, those doing the work on the challenges and opportunities for native vegetation ground, there is a minimum of paperwork and management in Australia. The Government has delay, and funds are available at the time of year established the Bush for Greenhouse program, most appropriate to the region. These projects are overseen by the Australian Greenhouse Office. potentially available to all land users, not just the Bush for Greenhouse is designed to facilitate members of landcare groups, and they concentrate corporate investment in revegetation ‘sinks’ to the burden of paperwork on the professional staff sequester carbon dioxide and reduce our net of regional organisations, rather than on the volun- greenhouse gas emissions. Delivery of this program teers who do most of the on-ground work. is being let through a competitive tender process, the outcome of which I expect to announce over For example, Greening Australia is now running a coming weeks. large-scale, Bushcare fencing incentives project in Tasmania, which in its first four months approved Limiting the loss of native vegetation will form a funding for more than 155 km of fencing, pro- critical part of any long-term greenhouse abatement tecting 1876 hectares over 109 sites. Rather than strategy. There are important synergies to be requiring 109 separate project funding applications, captured between reducing net greenhouse gas this is a single project which allocates funds at a emissions, abating dryland salinity, enhancing water property level against defined criteria, in return for quality and improving wildlife habitat at a land- a management agreement with the landholder. scape scale. To date Bushcare has invested about $17 million Through Bush for Greenhouse and through the in focused on-ground works through Devolved development of further policy and program meas- Grants. This model shows enormous potential and ures, the Government aims to maximise the positive the Commonwealth will expand upon it. The effects of these synergies on Australia’s native Natural Heritage Trust Guide to Applications 2000- vegetation. 2001 provides potential new participants with new Bush for Wildlife and additional information on Devolved Grants. Bush for Wildlife is a new initiative to provide a Improved One-Stop-Shop Process stronger focus on wildlife conservation through Natural Heritage Trust programs such as Bushcare, A central feature in our delivery of Bushcare and Endangered Species, Feral Animals and Weeds. associated programs is the ‘One-Stop-Shop’ process which enables community groups anywhere in Through this initiative the Bushcare guidelines now Australia to apply for funding through an integrated give priority to projects which include a component process, with community-based assessment of their which protects or restores habitat for endangered proposals at regional and State levels. This process native plants and animals. has delivered funding to over five thousand projects The initiative is also supporting State based ‘land over the first three funding rounds. for wildlife’ schemes. These schemes provide a support base for landholders interested in protecting The One-Stop-Shop process is continuously being wildlife on their properties. improved. This year the guidelines for new applica- tions are easier to follow. While keeping the same Communication basic structure that past applicants are familiar The information technology revolution offers major with, the new guidelines are shorter and easier to opportunities to enhance access for the thousands Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11451 of Australians who participate in Bushcare to the mechanism through which to provide greater information they need to make their efforts a suc- security for conservation values on private lands, cess. I would like a Bushcare grant applicant, at little ongoing cost to the taxpayer. school or community group anywhere in Australia, This proposal is modelled on the highly successful to be able to use the Trust website for obtaining Trust for Nature Victoria, which has been operating information such as: recommended species for under its own legislation since 1972. The revolving replanting, habitat requirements for endangered and fund operated by the Trust for Nature was en- migratory species, management plans for important hanced significantly earlier this year with a capital wetlands, as well as summaries of relevant injection of $500,000 from Bushcare. Bushcare will Bushcare research projects, best practice informa- facilitate similar initiatives throughout Australia. tion, key contacts and other sources of support. Broader Institutional Reform Work is well underway to enable this in the very near future. The next phase of Bushcare will focus on tackling Encouraging Philanthropy the wider constraints to better vegetation manage- ment, and on investing where we can exert most Community projects funded through the One Stop leverage on the policies and practices of the key Shop are critical to providing land managers with players in vegetation management. It is about the education, information, motivation and re- highlighting, extending and improving best practice, sources required to underpin and guide on-ground not just in vegetation management, but also in action and will remain central to the Common- regulatory, planning and incentives frameworks wealth’s overall strategy for Bushcare. across all tiers of government. There is scope to provide even greater incentives Over the last decade there has been a proliferation for conservation management on private lands of regional and catchment-based structures and through the tax system, through recent measures to processes in natural resource management. Many encourage greater corporate and personal philan- regional/catchment strategies have been and are still thropy announced by the Prime Minister on 26 being prepared, and are often used as the basis for March 1999. allocating public resources such as Natural Heritage Take the United States. There the private sector Trust funds including devolved grants in particular. invests as much in public benefit nature conserva- However these strategies are rarely reflected in tion as the public sector. statutory planning or regulations that have legal Through the Prime Ministers initiative, for the first force. If they do, it is usually with a narrow focus time donations of property valued at more than on a specific issue such as water quality. $5,000 to any eligible institution, including environ- Australia needs to dramatically improve the effec- mental organisations, will be tax deductible, no tiveness and integration of its natural resource matter when the property was purchased. management planning systems. There needs to be The Prime Minister also announced gifts donated much better vertical integration cascading through as part of a deceased estate will be exempt from statewide or regional planning, and given effect in capital gains tax. local planning, zoning and rating schemes. These initiatives build on the $80 million Landcare We also need to deliver better horizontal integra- Tax Rebate introduced through the Natural Heritage tion. The management of rivers, catchments, Trust and are designed to encourage greater philan- coastlines, vegetation, wildlife, land use and now thropic investment in the future of Australia’s carbon needs to be addressed as one and planned natural heritage. accordingly. This is both most feasible and most Revolving Funds imperative at the regional or catchment scale. The Commonwealth is committed to the introduc- Now is the time for Governments and communities tion of new revolving funds, in cooperation with to work together to create much more effective other governments and non-government organisa- mechanisms for addressing natural resource and tions to enable the purchase of land with high environmental management issues of which native wildlife habitat values and its subsequent resale to vegetation is a vital element. This must happen in buyers committed to management for conservation. an integrated manner and at a scale which is The conservation values of purchased properties appropriate to the particular issues being addressed. will be secured in perpetuity by the placement of It must also enable community commitment and a covenant on the title of the land. Resale of the participation in discovery and delivery of the land will enable the capital invested through the solutions. Natural Heritage Trust to be revolved to fund The Environment Protection and Biodiversity further purchases. With appropriate enabling Conservation Act commences in mid 2000. It will legislation to minimise transaction costs, revolving oblige the Commonwealth to pay close attention to funds are an innovative, efficient, market-based matters which will inevitably be the subject of 11452 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 regional strategies and plans. These include matters the Natural Heritage Trust to reinvest wisely in of national environmental significance such as Australia’s natural capital. nationally threatened species and communities of native wildlife; wetlands of international import- World Trade Organisation Ministerial ance; and migratory species protected under Conference, Seattle and Informal Trade international agreements. Ministers Meeting, Lausanne A key objective of the Act is to promote a coopera- Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— tive approach to protection and management of the Minister for Industry, Science and Resources) environment involving governments, the community and landholders. The Commonwealth looks forward (4.13 p.m.)—I table a statement on the Seattle to working nationally to enhance the very frame- World Trade Organisation Ministerial Meeting works within which we manage Australia’s natural by the Minister for Trade, and I seek leave to resources. incorporate the statement in Hansard. A further field of genuinely exciting opportunity Leave granted. involves the potential synergies to be captured between reducing net greenhouse gas emissions, The statement read as follows— abating dryland salinity, enhancing water quality I wish to inform the Senate of the outcomes of my and improving biodiversity conservation and visit to Seattle last week for the Third WTO wildlife habitat at a landscape scale. Full realisation Ministerial Conference, and the preceding "Friends of these synergies may depend on the development of the Round" meeting in Switzerland, for an of effective markets for carbon and, perhaps, informal meeting of Trade Ministers on 25-26 salinity credits to generate some of the required October. long-term investments. The Government will be working hard to explore and build upon these The meeting in Lausanne was supposed to be one opportunities. of the key preparatory meetings for the Seattle Ministerial. Its purpose was to review the prepara- Conclusion tory process ongoing in Geneva for the Seattle The overall goal of Bushcare to achieve a net gain Ministerial Conference, which had been making in the quality and extent of Australia’s native little headway. The Lausanne meeting involved vegetation is a clear on-ground outcome with Ministers from more than 20 countries, including environmental and sustainable production dimen- the "Friends of the Round" grouping in which sions. Australia has played a prominent role over the last couple of years, plus the United States, the Euro- The first two years of Bushcare have strongly pean Union, Japan, Canada and key developing emphasised direct capital investments from the countries. The main sticking point was the scope of Trust in on-ground vegetation projects, and also the a new Round—in other words the breadth of issues fundamental role of the community in managing which were to be placed on the negotiating agenda. native vegetation. From Australia’s perspective, I put the case strong- The community-driven elements of the program are ly for a round which would be centred on the key now being complemented with a greater emphasis market access areas of agriculture, services and on strategic investment to deliver on key priorities industrial products. Research commissioned by my such as reducing land clearing, securing the habitats Department estimates that the gains in terms of of endangered and threatened species, and targeting global welfare from a 50% cut in support and key land and water degradation problems. protection in these areas alone would total some Reforms to institutional arrangements capable of US$400 billion annually. influencing all landholders are also progressing well I expressed Australia’s concern that some devel- but need to be taken much further. oped countries, in particular the European Union The institutional arrangements to most effectively and Japan, were too ambitious in areas such as deliver investment in landscapes will fully engage investment and competition policy. Also attempts community capacity and innovation, be at a scale by the United States to put new and controversial at which there can be complete integration across issues such as labour standards onto the agenda natural resource and environment management would not be acceptable to developing countries. I objectives and have the strong support and engage- warned that such ambitions could derail the round ment of governments at all levels in the form of launch and urged a more measured and realistic resources and authority. approach. I also made the point strongly that a successful launch would require further elaboration The Government will work cooperatively and of the fundamental reform objective agreed in the strategically to achieve this vision as it continues Uruguay Round. I pointed to the near universal in its unprecedented efforts through Bushcare and support for agriculture reform across the WTO Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11453

Membership except for a small group of countries Notwithstanding this disappointing outcome, it led by the EU and Japan. would be wrong to conclude that no progress was In the following weeks I was in telephone contact made in Seattle. We made good progress in agricul- with my EU, US and Cairns Group counterparts on ture and services—and in some other areas. We are agriculture where a number of sensitive issues were hopeful that these results can indeed be "frozen", resolved. Regrettably the same could not be said as proposed by USTR Charlene Barshefsky and for other areas like labour standards and investment Director-General Mike Moore at the final Commit- where, despite the efforts of Australia and others tee meeting, and that the process can be re-started for a more reasoned position, attitudes from at an appropriate time. countries at both extremes remained rigid and It needs to be remembered that agriculture and unrealistic. As a result Ministers faced a hard job services negotiations are already mandated and will to find compromises at the meeting. begin early next year. On agriculture we have established clearly the almost unanimous expecta- At Seattle I led a strong Australian delegation tions of the WTO membership to move toward the representing all industry sectors, interested agencies elimination of export subsidies, to avoid the and including the opposition spokesman on trade. protectionist banner of "multifunctionality", to I welcome the strong commitment by the Australian achieve substantial and progressive reductions in business community to the Seattle meeting. Like domestic support, to pursue market access negotia- the Government, they appreciate the importance of tions aimed at the broadest level of liberalisation opening new export markets for Australia’s con- and to deal with issues like environment and rural tinued economic and employment growth. welfare in ways that do not distort production and Many of the Australian industry organisations in trade. These elements will provide a very positive Seattle ran parallel events to support and encourage direction for next year’s agriculture negotiations. progress with the agriculture talks. The National The mandate for the services negotiations has not Farmers Federation arranged a meeting of farm been controversial. We can expect to make progress leaders from Cairns Group countries and the sugar, on market access in sectors such as financial, grains, dairy and processed food industries ran telecommunications, professional services and seminars and other activities in support of our electronic commerce. We will also continue to agricultural reform objectives. I would like to pay work on the full intellectual property agenda. tribute to the outstanding efforts made by the Australian contingent. There was a real sense of Australia intends to fight hard to progress the "Team Australia" throughout the meeting. mandated negotiations, in close cooperation with the Cairns Group and with positively inclined Through their efforts, and those of Australia and services trading countries. We stand ready to the Cairns Group of agriculture countries, we made incorporate these negotiations in a broader round significant progress on agriculture. This was also as soon as possible and will work to that end. In assisted by close cooperation with the United the mean time we are well prepared to start the States. mandated negotiations on agriculture and services But similar progress was not achieved in other in the new year. areas. We had warned in Lausanne that overloading I would like to make clear that the events in Seattle the agenda with new issues like investment, have not resulted in any change in the Govern- competition, labour standards and the environment ment’s support for a market access focused round would put the round at risk. that includes industrial products in addition to the Contrary to many media reports, the riots were not mandated negotiations on agriculture and services. a major problem for the conference. The real We will continue to argue for a new round while stumbling blocks included getting on with the agriculture and services negotia- tions. . an unwieldy agenda We will also continue to express our concerns at . unrealistic ambitions in new areas, which were attempts to overload the WTO agenda with compli- not tempered in the Geneva preparatory process cated and controversial issues. That does not mean or during the conference; we do not support sensible work programs in the . an excessive emphasis on labour standards by the WTO on issues such as trade and environment and United States despite determined resistance from on trade and development issues. There are clearly developing countries; overlaps with other policy domains in these areas which the WTO is already addressing. Despite the . and strong demands from developing countries misinformation being peddled by the Labor Party, which sought to renegotiate Uruguay Round Australia went to Seattle supportive of an ongoing agreements as part of a new Round launch. work program of the WTO Committee on Trade In the end there was neither enough compromise, and Environment and the Committee on Trade and nor time to achieve it. Development. This reflects our position that it is 11454 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 important to ensure efforts to free up trade are efforts to build support and momentum for a trade mutually supportive with environmental goals, as round. well as advancing the broad objective of sustainable We will also be investigating, with our New development. Zealand and ASEAN colleagues, the potential for There is misinformation on the trade and labour a Free Trade Agreement (FTA) linking CER with issue being put around by the Labor Party in recent the ASEAN Free Trade Agreement. In this regard days. It is a shame to see that Senator Cook, who I was pleased to announce earlier today that former I might say was a valuable and constructive Deputy Prime Minister and Trade Minister, Tim member of the Australian delegation in Seattle, has Fischer, will be the Government’s representative on had to toe the trade union line on his return to the high-level task force to pursue AFTA/CER Australia. links. As one of Australia’s most successful Trade Ministers, Tim Fischer brings a wealth of experi- Senator Cook knows what the real situation was in ence in pursuing closer economic and trade rela- Seattle. The United States was running with a tions with the ASEAN countries. highly provocative proposal to developing countries on trade and labour. He acknowledged the US "had The delay in a Round launch will no doubt also one of the worst records of all countries in the stimulate attention to other possibilities for regional world for following ILO conventions". Australia’s trade liberalisation and greater economic integra- position, supported by the Labor Party until recent tion. There has been interest expressed in several political expediency got in the way, has been that bilateral and plurilateral combinations, including labour standards are better dealt with in other some which would link North and South America international forums such as the ILO. with CER and Asia. The Government is open to concluding free trade agreements where they would Australia was nevertheless amongst a group of give Australia substantial gains in market access countries trying to find a way of bridging the gap which Australia could not get elsewhere in a between the US and developing countries given the similar timeframe. importance of finding an acceptable solution to this issue for the final Seattle outcome. It appeared that Bilaterally, the Market Development Taskforce in consensus could have been reached, as part of a my Department will continue our efforts to open Seattle package, around the establishment of a free markets and promote exports in both traditional and standing "working forum" suggested by Thai emerging markets. Deputy Prime Minister, Dr Supachai, involving a Australia has an enormous interest in trade, and in range of international organisations including the protecting and building the global trading system. WTO, ILO, UNCTAD and the World Bank. This The Government will continue to put that message would have met Australia’s objective of not squarely to the Australian people. In this regard I bringing the issue directly within the WTO. will shortly be releasing a new series of regional fact sheets which will highlight the importance of In addition to pushing for the negotiations on international trade to the prosperity of local com- agriculture and services to begin early next year, munities. This link between our trade performance there are other aspects of the WTO we will also and our economic livelihood has to be better pursue. We will press our dispute actions against understood and the Government must play its part the infamous US lamb safeguard tariff quotas and in conveying this message. Korea’s beef restrictions. We also plan to work, through the WTO Dispute Investigation and We have a huge stake in the global trading system. Enforcement mechanism I announced in September, So in addition to building a stronger domestic to identify and pursue any other areas where our support base to the Government’s trade work, we trading interests are being damaged through non- will continue to pursue our international trade observance of the WTO rules by others. We will policies with maximum energy at all levels— also do all we can to see China and Taiwan accede multilateral, regional and bilateral. to the WTO early next year, given the sizeable Senator COOK (Western Australia— trade benefits in prospect for our exporters. Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the The Government adopts an integrated multilateral, Senate) (4.13 p.m.)—by leave—I move: regional and bilateral approach to trade policy. The WTO is a vital part of this strategy and the Seattle That the Senate take note of the statement. outcome has not changed that. But the WTO is This is a statement by the Minister for Trade, only a part of our trade policy agenda. Regionally, the Hon. Mark Vaile, on the events of the last we will be pressing to invigorate the APEC trade week and in the preparation leading up to the liberalisation and facilitation process when Austral- ia hosts the APEC Trade Ministers’ meeting next last week for the Seattle Round of trade talks. June. The Seattle outcome means there is a strong I welcome the statement. It does represent an case for APEC members to continue regional exercise in accountability to the parliament. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11455

It enables the issues to be debated by this conflict basis and, given the harsh lessons of chamber. They are welcome developments the Great Depression, to do so in such a way and I consider that no area is more important that the world did not slip into economic than trade, because it is our major economic decline in the way it did that blighted so activity and outranks the GST in its signifi- many lives as a consequence of the Great cance to Australian working people and Depression. ordinary Australians. Those are significant achievements by the Madam Acting Deputy President, 1.7 world trading system and they cannot be million Australians work in jobs that exist dismissed lightly. They have to be defended because we are an exporting nation. About stoutly. Freeing up world trade has meant 21.3 per cent of our GDP is earned in export. greater economic growth around the world. Much of our future growth will cause better All countries have benefited, all countries and more permanent jobs if we develop our have grown as a consequence, and it is vital exports more effectively. Indeed, in Australia for developing countries that it continue. The manufacturing jobs in companies that are argument in some quarters is: who benefits export companies pay higher wages than most? That is an argument worth having, but companies where there is no export dimension it is not an argument to say that the advanta- to their activities. So trade is an essential and ges of growth should be easily dismissed. significant part of our national economy. There is not a serious case for comparative Anything that can be done to promote it advantage to be set aside, because compara- means greater benefits to the wider Australian tive advantage does lead to general economic community, and it is very important to have growth. that strongly stated. The attacks on the WTO that challenge Now that the empty teargas canisters have these facts overlook the basic reasons for been cleared away, the spent rubber bullets having such an organisation. It is not a supra- have been swept up, and the wastepaper in national, international government; it is a the conference halls in Seattle have been consensus driven body. Outcomes are adopted cleaned out, it is important to consider what by governments. The breakdown in talks in last week was about and what the significance Seattle set these principles back to some of those events was. The WTO itself seems to extent, at a cost to Australia. The cost to me to be under challenge from many quarters Australia is quite significant in that, if tariffs of the world as to its continued viability and were cut around the world by half, Australia existence. would have gained by $7.5 billion a year. I want to say a few things about the WTO With greater market access, thousands of and its predecessor, the GATT. The WTO is Australian exporters—including service a consensus driven organisation with 134 exporters, manufacturers and farmers—would governments around the world affiliated with have been able to establish new markets. it, and its role is to come down with rules to There would have been higher wages and prevent and settle trade disputes. Before we there would have been cheaper products for had the WTO or the GATT, trade disputes customers worldwide. went grievously bad at the cost of millions of By the round not proceeding, NGOs that lives in the world. The First World War is an opposed the establishment of the round have example of a trade dispute that did not suc- lost out. They were protesting against the ceed and was conducted on the battlefields. status quo. The best chance they ever had of Much of the Second World War was about realising their objectives was for the round to that as well. As a result of those disputes, and be engaged—if not in the WTO itself, then in following the end of the Second World War, other forums associated with the round so that at the Bretton Woods accords the GATT, the the issues they were really concerned about World Bank and the IMF were established as could be dealt with. The failure of the round international institutions to try to regulate comes at the cost of developing countries, international economic activity on a non- which are now without a multilateral forum 11456 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 in which they can address many of their the United States has the worst record in issues. For Australia, having an international adopting ILO conventions of many countries rules based, multilateral forum that can settle in the world. That is a matter of fact. It is a trade disputes on a fair basis—according to matter of record, and the reason I state it is merit, not according to might—is a fundamen- that there is a need for countries which are tally important issue. For Australia as a putting the WTO ahead of the ILO in terms medium-sized power dealing with the mighty of labour standards to do their basic work on nations of this world, if it can resolve its adopting labour standards in their own count- disputes at a roundtable in Geneva where the ries and to support the work of the ILO. That rules of fairness apply, rather than by force or does not mean that there cannot be debate on by overbearing economic strength, that is a labour standards in the WTO, but there is significant advantage for this country and one certainly an obligation to work through the that should be stoutly and strongly defended ILO. The Australian Constitution is, after all, by all of us. nothing more than a constitution to ensure I now want to turn briefly to the manner in free trade between the states. But in pursuing which the round closed down. It was said free trade in Australia, we added a labour from the podium that they hoped to freeze the clause by enabling in the Constitution the results reached in the negotiations at the point prevention and settlement of industrial dis- that the negotiations collapsed. It was said as putes that go beyond the borders of more than a hope. There is no guarantee that the results, one state. That is a constitutional response by as far as they were achieved, will be frozen; our forefathers, which is a worthwhile thing and that is unfortunate. There is an important to bear in mind when this government is need now to move very quickly to get a trying to exclude a discussion of labour round launched, in Geneva or elsewhere, or, standards from a free trade agreement. failing that, to consolidate the gains that were Our Constitution upheld the principle; there made to get acknowledgment of those gains is no reason why we cannot address it in from our negotiating partners and agreement intelligent and constructive ways through the on the general outcomes so that the results negotiations in the WTO. One has to ask genuinely are frozen and not frozen only oneself—given that the Reith legislation has because the chair ordained it. I think that is been found to contravene ILO conventions— a vitally important thing, otherwise the results whether there is a guilty conscience in some will thaw and degrade, and we will lose the quarters of the government and whether we advantage that this round of negotiations gave have Mr Reith overwhelming Mr Vaile’s us. commonsense in trying to shift trade negotia- That is important particularly for Australian tions to reach an undertaking that would agricultural producers who stand to benefit if incorporate some recognition of labour stand- we open markets because of the round. Also, ards in some form or at least an off-base although agriculture and services—as a discussion of it so that the matter was ad- consequence of Labor’s negotiation at the dressed. Finally, I think the concentration on conclusion of the Uruguay Round—are now regional trade openings is welcome but it is mandated and will continue in negotiation not good enough. The bar is too low as far as next year, it is important that we have a wide an AFTA-CER agreement is concerned. (Time round with other sectors in order to have expired) scope for cross-sectoral negotiation to con- Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- clude outcomes. tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian Mr Vaile set down in his statement several Democrats) (4.23 p.m.)—I seek to make a few outcomes for agriculture. Those outcomes comments on the same report. I start by now need to be nailed down so that they do commending the Minister for Trade, Mr Mark not erode. Mr Vaile in his statement also Vaile, for making his statement today on the quotes me. I need to correct the quote, be- Australian delegation to the Third World cause it is incorrect. What I did say was that Trade Organisation Ministerial Conference Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11457 held in Seattle last week. I certainly acknow- bureaucrats, and I acknowledge that the ledge that some aspects of his report are quite shadow minister was present. But there were interesting, including his claim that: no non-government organisations represented Contrary to many media reports, the riots were not in that official delegation. Team Australia a major problem for the conference. comprised representatives from the ‘fastest, highest and strongest’ members of the private And he goes on to talk about what he con- sector, but no representatives of the civil siders the real stumbling blocks—in one society, the poor or the environment. circumstance, an unwieldy agenda, and there are other issues to which he refers. There can Of course, promotion of our agricultural be no doubt that many of the images on our industry is important—and we acknowledge television screens of protesters and riots and every right of the minister to pursue these of people from a range of different welfare, issues—but there was no reason for the labour and trade union organisations and Australian agenda to be so limited. We indeed environment groups protesting in the believe the government’s refusal to engage in streets of Seattle remain with us. UK or US sponsored discussions on issues of labour standards or human rights at the There are some important lessons to be conference is another stark flaw. It has long learnt from the WTO conference. One lesson been a feature of the international rights that we should learn from the failure of these debate that developing nations are wary of talks is that, if the advocates of further trade being subjected to impossible labour, environ- liberalisation are to have any success in mental and rights standards. However, the achieving their aims, they must engage in a extraordinary reluctance of the Australian full, transparent and accountable dialogue government to discuss these issues within the with citizens around the world. Unlike the context of trade liberalisation is difficult to traditional post-confab happy snap that we comprehend. normally get from trade conferences, some of the scenes on our television screens and in The WTO is often trumpeted as preferable our papers were quite confronting images, to other international economic and financial leading some commentators to even claim that institutions due to its democratic working this might be the birth of global politics, structure and conferral of equal voting rights which I think is an interesting image. on all its members. Furthermore, its founding treaty contains an undertaking to protect and For almost a decade now globalisation has preserve the environment and to make posi- been part of the international lexicon. How- tive efforts to assist developing nations. I ever, communities around the world have con- acknowledge the previous speaker’s com- sistently been denied any meaningful dialogue ments: Senator Cook said a lot of the protest- on the pace or direction of globalisation. ers were protesting against the status quo and Queries, doubts and concerns about the effect that perhaps it would have been in their inter- of the reforms implemented as a consequence ests—in his view, not necessarily in that of of the Uruguay Round earlier this decade the Democrats—to achieve change through have instead been met with the retort that this forum proceeding and achieving certain globalisation is basically inevitable and that outcomes. Yes, this is a very good forum in we can like it or lump it. So the Democrats which to pursue some of these issues, but I welcome this statement as hopefully leading guess our concern is that the Australian to greater dialogue and transparency on trade government does not necessarily see the issues between government and the people. forum in that broader context. However, any congratulations must end there. So arguments that the WTO is not an We consider the approach of this govern- appropriate forum for the discussion of these ment on trade issues as narrow and short- issues is completely contradicted and under- sighted. Perhaps the most stark example of mined by the founding documents of that this was the so-called Team Australia—the organisation. It is also difficult to see how collection of industry representatives and issues of rights and standards are not linked 11458 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 to trade, when one of the driving forces of recommendations on board. Primary among globalisation of industry and trade is the these is that trade must be not just free but lower prices of goods and services across fair and ethical. The unjust enrichment of the nations and regions caused by lower labour wealthiest nations and corporations should not costs. When it is Western multinational be part of any international or national agen- corporations that are among those who are da. There must be a review of the reforms most guilty of the perpetration of breaches of that have already been implemented, a review human rights and environment and labour of the effect of past trade liberalisation and standards, arguments that they should not be the development of a permanent dialogue bet- subjected to the same standards in developing ween institutions concerned with the protec- nations as they are in developed nations are tion of the environment and the implementa- hard to maintain. tion of human rights and labour standards. The government made it plain on many There must be a reassessment of the priori- occasions that it prefers to seek minimalist ties of the international community. Trade is positions on international standards—as seen one aspect of life and should not subjugate in the recent ILO conference in Geneva. Of other values. The enforcement powers of the course, this position is not necessarily reflect- WTO exceed the powers of almost all other ed when it comes to trade. I was interested to international institutions—bar, perhaps, the see the comments by Mr Warren Truss last UN Security Council—and thus give it inordi- Friday when he stated: nate strength. There must be greater transpar- It would be a tragedy if we were to end up with a ency if the faith of civil society is ever to be weak declaration just so we could get an agree- won. The demonstrations in Seattle were not ment. evidence of a lack of faith or a loss of faith On the issue of labour standards, the govern- but of disgust with a regime that has flour- ment would prefer the ILO to be the sole ished despite worldwide opposition. There organisation charged with their implementa- must also be democracy so that communities tion; yet it is well known that the ILO faces can have a stake in the process of globalisa- some considerable difficulty in discharging tion, and I do believe that the WTO processes this duty and that a permanent dialogue with need reform. the WTO would prove beneficial in ensuring that nations adhere to their international Not only did Team Australia exclude NGOs commitments. in the trade liberalisation debate in Seattle; by Where unanimous international agreement supporting the Green Room process Australia has been secured for a standard, such as the acted to exclude many developing G77 inter- Prohibition of Exploitative Child Labour, ILO ests. The Green Room facilitates discussion Convention No. 182, adopted in June this between only 30 or so countries, and this is year by 174 nations, including Australia— clearly inadequate when developing countries more nations than are members of the need to get differential trade liberalisation and WTO—every effort should be made to secure other measures which are sympathetic to the rapid ratification and implementation. The G77 countries’ different needs onto the WTO is an ideal organisation to assist in this agenda. process, and our government’s failure to The delegates of developing nations ex- support either the UK or the US initiatives to pressed concerns after the talks broke up that facilitate this is extremely disappointing. the process had not been fair and did not add- The failure of the talks gives nations around ress their concerns. NGO releases at the end the world an opportunity to take stock of the of the round in Seattle describe the process as overwhelming protests and anger at the pace ‘undemocratic, unjust and unbalanced’. It is and direction of globalisation and to consider clear that the talks failed due to the way the the reforms to be made. The Democrats see WTO conducts itself. The protesters’ messa- that there are five key areas for reform of the ges were very similar. The WTO needs to WTO and urge the government to take these reform its processes so that trade policy is Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11459 made in a way that is transparent, fair and tion should include discussions with officers from balanced. all relevant Federal Government instrumentalities (including Environment Australia, Department of I would also like to take the opportunity to Primary Industries and Energy, Bureau of Resource raise some of the issues that surrounded the Sciences and RIRDC), wildlife scientists, state discussion on the creation and use of and government officials and private landowners. trade in GMO products in Seattle—a particu- Funding for such trials could come from the lar area of concern, no doubt, given the Bushcare: National Vegetation Initiative program debate on the ANZFA legislation today. The of the Natural Heritage Trust. WTO must assess where it is at. Environment- Government response al and ethical trading issues should be repre- sented not only at the meeting but also out- The Government supports in principle the concept side on the streets. I do not think we can of an experimental management trial and will undertake a feasibility study to ascertain the disregard those demonstrations in Seattle. The viability of such a trial, as part of the implementa- demonstrations were telling of a wider shift tion of the National Principles and Guidelines for in global community attitudes in which Rangeland management. environment, health, labour and, of course, G77 issues are of top concern. Trade This feasibility study will aim to gain an under- liberalisation is not an end in itself; it facili- standing of social, environmental and economic factors impacting upon and arising out of native tates other ends. I think Australia and the wildlife utilisation in rangelands. Key issues which Australian government, as well as other should be foreshadowed within such a study would countries that participated in the WTO round include: the species most likely to form the basis in Seattle, would do well to remember that. of sustainable and profitable industries; the manage- Question resolved in the affirmative. ment regimes and codes of practice necessary to ensure long term ecological sustainability and long COMMITTEES term economic viability and to minimise animal welfare concerns. Key issues would also include Rural and Regional Affairs and marketing, processing and quality control; the range Transport References Committee of incentives available to encourage improvements in natural resource management practices; identifi- Report: Government Response cation of government and other institutional impedi- Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— ments to such changes and the necessary monitor- Minister for Industry, Science and Resources) ing and evaluation of the impacts resulting from the changes. (4.33 p.m.)—I present the government’s response to the report of the Rural and Re- Depending on the outcome of the feasibility study, gional Affairs and Transport References the Government would work with key stakeholders Committee on its enquiry into commercial in one or more rangeland regions to develop a utilisation of Australian native wildlife. I seek detailed proposal for an on-ground trial in a form suitable for Natural Heritage Trust investment. leave to have the document incorporated in Diversification of land use is consistent with the Hansard. draft National Principles and Guidelines for Range- Leave granted. land Management, and enhanced utilisation of native species, in particular native flora, is poten- The document read as follows— tially one way of diversifying rangeland industries, SENATE RURAL AND REGIONAL AF- while promoting ecologically sustainable manage- FAIRS AND TRANSPORT REFERENCES ment of environmental and natural resources. COMMITTEE INQUIRY INTO COMMER- Commonwealth funding for a feasibility study and CIAL UTILISATION OF AUSTRALIAN trial could be sourced from Bushcare and the NATIVE WILDLIFE National Landcare Program, contingent upon the GOVERNMENT RESPONSE projects being consistent with the objectives of those programs and funds being available. The Recommendation 1 most productive result is likely to be obtained if a The Committee recommends that the Federal trial were conducted in partnership with State and Government investigate the possibility of an Territory governments, landholders (including experimental management trial, preferably in the indigenous landholders) and appropriate community rangelands region of Australia. Such an investiga- organisations. 11460 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Recommendation 2 able use of wildlife as used in southern Africa, The Committee recommends that the Rural and whereby in some areas ownership of wildlife is Regional Affairs and Transport References Com- transferred to local landowners, and recommends mittee review the effectiveness of programs related that the Government examine the appropriateness to feral animal control in two years time. of such a model to biodiversity conservation in Australia. Government response Government Response Noted. The Committee has identified that, aside from habitat loss, one of the greatest threats to Accepted. The investigation of increased private biodiversity in Australia is the impact of feral sector investment in biodiversity conservation is animals. The Government has recognised the strongly supported. Systems of management need threats posed by feral animals, and all other to be underpinned by analysis of the species invasive species, and is addressing these through concerned, the local environment, determination of programs under the Natural Heritage Trust. The the property rights and incentive regimes to support Government considers that any review should conservation and sustainable use objectives. These encompass all invasive species control programs will involve investigation of measures to manage and recognises that in two years time, more de- risks such as erosion of the gene pool in remnant tailed information will be available on various populations. control options and should enable comprehensive cost effectiveness analyses to be undertaken, Model systems for private sector investment including with regard to commercial harvesting of currently exist in industries based on wildlife use, pest species. for example, some fisheries management regimes. The development of an access right regime will Recommendation 3 enable a market to develop for species of commer- The Committee recommends that the Government cial value. This will occur through the incorpora- monitor the environmental, social and economic tion of the necessary conditions to ensure an impacts of commercial utilisation of wildlife so that efficient and effective market for the commerciali- a balance sheet can be constructed to assess the full sation. Flow-on implications for other species will impact of wildlife industries on the Australian also need to be taken into account. Significant economy. benefits to increased biodiversity conservation Government Response values could lead to flow on benefits to other species through habitat improvement, increased Accept in principle. The use of a balance sheet availability of funds, improved knowledge and assessment that incorporates environmental, social, incentive mechanisms for sustainable use. and economic impacts of commercial wildlife use could provide essential information for managing Recommendation 5 industries that evolve from increased access to The Committee recommends that State and Federal wildlife resources. Governments together review all administrative Indicators would be an essential component of a procedures relating to commercial utilisation of balance sheet approach and would need to be wildlife in Australia with a view to increasing their agreed by stakeholders and be consistent with efficiency so as to ensure that there are no unneces- existing initiatives. Governments are currently sary hindrances to industry. undertaking work in a number of areas that would assist the development of such balance sheets. This Government Response includes the Australian Bureau of Statistics’ natural Accepted. A review of administrative procedures resource accounts, the National Forest Inventory under the Wildlife Protection (Regulation of and reporting against the Montreal Process criteria Exports & Imports) Act 1982 is already underway, and indicators for forests, State of the Environment with a view to eliminating inefficiencies. This reporting and the development of environmental review will include consideration of administrative indicators. Using the work already being undertak- costs and fees charged to the industries, in line with en could contribute to the development of manage- the Commonwealth’s policy on cost recovery. ment regimes that recognise the commercial values of wildlife use and assist in the management of The Commonwealth will continue to work coopera- broader biodiversity values. tively with State Governments to streamline administrative procedures relating to commercial Recommendation 4 utilisation of wildlife. Through relevant Ministerial The Committee recommends that the Federal Councils, the Commonwealth will seek the cooper- Government investigate ways in which private ation of the States and Territories to develop more sector investment in biodiversity conservation can integrated and efficient procedures in this area. be supported and encouraged. In particular, the Statutory obligations may also be reviewed, where Committee draws attention to the model of sustain- appropriate, to remove duplication. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11461

Recommendation 6 the industry. Codes must also be broadly based so The Committee believes that governments should they do not favour or penalise particular industries. make greater efforts to recognise the contributions It is also recognised that a number of animal use made by amateur biologists. The Committee industries are including animal welfare codes into recommends to Federal and State Governments that Quality Assurance Programs. This is an effective they review wildlife regulations with a view to mechanism to ensure best practice and compliance facilitating the work of professional and amateur with codes of practice and will be encouraged. scientists, so that they can actively contribute to Recommendation 8 biodiversity conservation. The Committee believes that these factors point Government Response strongly to the conclusion that the current prohibi- The Government is strongly supportive of, and tionist policy does not work to protect wildlife from encourages broad community involvement in, all illegal activities, although the extent to which it aspects of biodiversity conservation. Through the does not work, is difficult to ascertain. The Com- Natural Heritage Trust, funding and other support mittee notes that the Federal Government is is provided for a broad range of activities which currently undertaking a review of all environmental target the full range of environmental and natural legislation. The Committee recommends that the resource issues facing Australia. Scientific research Government include in that review consideration of can have significant long-term benefits to other policy options for Wildlife Protection. biodiversity conservation, and the government is Government Response keen to ensure that professional and amateur scientists can actively contribute to biodiversity Accepted in principle. The Consultation Paper on conservation. The Government also acknowledges the Reform of Environment Legislation, released in that indigenous people have considerable traditional February 1998, included proposals to amend the ecological expertise and that this knowledge should Wildlife Protection (Regulation of Exports and be respected. Imports) Act 1982. However, these proposals were Through the Australian and New Zealand Environ- not included in the Environment Protection and ment and Conservation Council , the Common- Biodiversity Conservation Bill, pending the report wealth Government will encourage the States and of this Senate Inquiry. The Government has, in its Territories to review wildlife regulations and amend election platform, made a commitment to amend any that inhibit legitimate scientists and others in the Wildlife Protection (Regulation of Exports and the community from contributing to our knowledge Imports) Act 1982. The reforms recommended by of Australia’s biological diversity. However, in the Senate Committee, including implementing undertaking such a review it will be necessary to administrative arrangements that protect wildlife ensure that biodiversity conservation is maintained, from illegal activities, will be carefully considered access to biological resources is equitable, and that in drafting amendments to this legislation. where access gives rise to private benefit, the Recommendation 9 community receives an appropriate share of that The Committee believes that the Government benefit. should act wherever possible to support legitimate Recommendation 7 small businesses in Australia, and therefore recom- The Committee recommends that codes of practice mends that Environment Australia give priority to relating to wildlife industries should: (1) be in place resolving problems relating to the sale and export prior to approval being given for an industry to of coral and shells, so as to assist industry. commence operations; (2) have a clear connection Government Response between licensing conditions and compliance with a code of practice so that failure to comply results Accepted. The Government is in the process of in a withdrawal of the licence; (3) be consistent implementing new arrangements for trade in corals between the states; and (4) where several codes and shells. These arrangements will assist the coral apply to the same industry, be consistent between industry to legally harvest and export its product, codes. and will substantially decrease the administrative burden on the shell trade without reducing the level Government Response of control of the trade in species of shells vulnera- Accepted. It is noted that this recommendation ble to overharvesting. accords with the general thrust of discussions in the National Consultative Committee on Animal Recommendation 10 Welfare on this issue. The Government recognises The Committee recommends a remote Aboriginal that codes evolve over time and that a code intro- community be invited to carry out a trial survey of duced at the time of approval of an industry will the levels of subsistence wildlife use, and its impact need to be reconsidered in light of new knowledge, on biodiversity, supported by a grant through the including that gained as a result of the operation of Natural Heritage Trust. 11462 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Government Response The Government supports efforts to engage key stakeholders, including indigenous communities, in Considerable work has already been conducted to widespread discussions aimed at resolving this investigate subsistence use of wildlife, particularly issue. This may include using the intellectual in northern Australia, primarily focused on the property system to protect traditional knowledge; identification of utilisation patterns. What is now eg confidential information, protection and recogni- needed are strategic studies to set utilisation tion through contract law, and the possibilities of patterns in an ecological context, including an developing a new class of proprietary rights, or new examination of the long term impacts upon classes of transfer agreement. biodiversity of various utilisation patterns, and impacts other than subsistence use by traditional Statement by the Minister for the Environment communities. It is also desirable to measure the and Heritage, Senator the Hon Robert Hill, in effects on biodiversity of the absence of traditional relation to the Report of the Senate Rural and use. Studies should include analysis of the full Regional Affairs and Transport References economic benefits, and the cultural importance to Committee on ‘Commercial Utilisation of Aus- society of subsistence use. In addition, any study tralian Native Wildlife’. needs to be undertaken with the full cooperation of I am pleased to present to the Parliament, the the community, respecting their rights, and agree- Government’s response to the recommendations ment with the community about use of information contained in the Report of Senate Rural and gained during a study is essential. Commonwealth Regional Affairs and Transport References Com- assistance through the Natural Heritage Trust could mittee Inquiry into Commercial Utilisation of be made available for appropriate studies. Australian Native Wildlife. Recommendation 11 I am indebted to the Committee for their significant efforts in providing a constructive contribution to The Committee recommends that Aboriginal people the consideration of this issue. The Committee should be consulted where commercial opportuni- received over 340 submissions, and took evidence ties are identified on lands where there are commu- from over 100 witnesses and groups of witnesses nities that have strong traditional links to the lands. at 14 public hearings around Australia. The submis- Government Response sions and evidence presented to the Committee clearly highlight the wide divergence of views Accepted. On lands owned or managed by indigen- within the Australian community about the ethical ous communities it is well accepted that any desirability of the commercial use of wildlife. commercial use should occur only after consul- Despite this obvious lack of a broad consensus tation. The Government considers it important to amongst Australians, the Committee has developed fully involve indigenous communities in any a series of recommendations that seek to balance proposals where commercial opportunities are the sometimes-competing demands for conservation identified on lands where there are traditional links. and ecologically sustainable use of our wildlife re- Recommendation 12 sources. The recommendations also seek to stream- line government regulation of these activities to The Committee believes that the importance of make it more efficient and effective. intellectual property rights of Aboriginal people in relation to the use of wildlife has not received Not surprisingly, the Report identifies that the sufficient recognition, and the Committee recom- future of biodiversity conservation in Australia now mends that the Federal government give greater depends very much on finding mechanisms to attention to this issue. ensure that natural habitat on private land is preserved and restored. Valuing natural habitat as Government Response an economic resource will certainly assist it to be Accepted in principle. Traditional knowledge of fully respected and conserved. It concludes that, if biodiversity has benefited Australian society and appropriately managed, commercial utilisation of continues to do so, but historically, the value of wildlife may be a mechanism of achieving that indigenous peoples traditional knowledge could be respect and conservation. This is consistent with the perceived as having been largely ignored, with the principles accepted by all Governments in Australia sources of knowledge often not acknowledged, and through the adoption of the National Strategy for rarely benefiting. Current intellectual property the Conservation of Australia’s Biological Diversity rights regimes may not offer sufficient protection in 1996. to the holders of traditional (indigenous) knowledge The Report also correctly identifies that the chal- because the two concepts are largely incompatible lenge for government agencies, entrepreneurs, and under Australian law. There may also be tension conservation groups is to manage wildlife use so as between the publication requirements of statutory to minimise the environmental risks and maximise intellectual property rights and any desire indigen- the benefits to biodiversity conservation. It notes ous communities have to keep knowledge secret. that proposals for harvesting and ranching of our Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11463 wildlife need to be considered on a case-by-case in this document. Implementation of the recommen- basis, and comprehensive management plans dations will remain consistent with Australia’s developed which take into account a cost benefit international obligations under the Convention on analysis of other land uses, and other mechanisms Biological Diversity, and also the Convention on for preserving habitat. In keeping with the predomi- International Trade in Endangered Species. nant view expressed to the Committee, animal welfare considerations must factor highly in any The Committee has recognised that regulation of utilisation regime. wildlife use lies mostly within the ambit of State government control, and that any implementation One key area highlighted by the Report as requiring of its recommendations can only occur with State attention is the issue of property or access rights to government cooperation. Through relevant wildlife. It notes a lack of clarity as to what Ministerial Councils, the Commonwealth will constitutes rights (including indigenous or Native encourage the States and Territories, and work with Title rights) in wildlife, and that these rights are in them to implement those recommendations that practice difficult to define and are not consistent require cooperative action. across Australia. It suggests that by assigning property or access rights, wildlife would become an Some of the Committee’s recommendations are asset rather than a liability to the landholder, and already being implemented or can be implemented that if landholders receive a financial reward for in the near future while others, because of the living with wildlife and bearing the cost to society extent of the work involved in their development of maintaining natural resources this may encourage and/or higher priorities requiring more immediate conservation. This view is consistent with the draft attention, are of a medium to longer term nature. National Principles and Guidelines for Rangeland The improvements that will be gained from the Management. Government’s response to this report include The issue of Native Title rights is of fundamental improved efficiency and responsiveness of oper- importance in considerations of wildlife use sys- ations under the Wildlife Protection (Regulation of tems. While the scope of every native title right in Exports and Imports) Act, greater public transpar- Australia has not yet been clarified, the Native Title ency, and ensuring that world’s best practice Act 1993 essentially provides a framework for the standards and methods are employed in managing recognition and protection of native title rights and the commercial use of Australia’s native fauna and interests, rather than replacing the common law flora. The Government has already given an with some statutory scheme of rights to land. The undertaking to review the Wildlife Protection Act Government recognises that access, and knowledge to improve its efficiency and effectiveness. The and input to the use of resources on the land is Senate report provides a well-defined framework important to native titleholders, and agrees with the within which this review will occur. Committee’s recommendation that indigenous people be consulted and given the opportunity to Through its response to this Report, the Govern- express their views about certain proposed land use ment has demonstrated that it places a high priority activities. on wildlife conservation and on ensuring that it is addressed in a transparent, responsive, efficient and The Report examines a number of established scientifically rigorous way. It has also demonstrated wildlife industries, such as crocodile and emu its commitment to improving administrative farming, kangaroo and wildflower harvesting, efficiency and removing unnecessary hindrances aviculture and bush food, and makes a number of and constraints to legitimate industries. constructive proposals for their management. It also alerts Governments to the fact that, if the ‘user I am confident that the approach outlined in the pays’ principle is not kept firmly in mind, indus- Government’s response will not only maintain our tries based on commercial utilisation of wildlife strong record in protection and conservation of have the potential to impact on the public sector in Australia’s native wildlife, but will also ensure high administrative costs. It notes that mechanisms improved protection for those species into the next are needed to ensure that commercial utilisation of century. wildlife does not result in a net economic loss to society, and that there is a need to fully and In closing, I would like to express my gratitude to publicly monitor all costs. the members of the Committee for this comprehen- sive report, and for the insightful comments and The Committee has made 12 specific recommenda- recommendations made in relation to wildlife tions aimed at streamlining government regulation harvesting and regulation in Australia. of the commercial use of wildlife and ensuring ecologically sustainable use of our wildlife re- I commend this response to the Parliament. sources. The broad thrust of the Committee’s ROBERT HILL recommendations is endorsed by the Government and will be achieved through the responses outlined Minister for Environment and Heritage 11464 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Reports: Government Responses amendments to the Corporate Law Economic Reform Program Bill 1998 (CLERP Bill) which Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— were proposed in the Senate on 12 October 1999. Minister for Industry, Science and Resources) The amendments to the CLERP Bill will imple- (4.33 p.m.)—I present the government’s ment almost all of the recommendations of the response to the President’s report of 30 June majority report and a number of the recommen- 1999 on outstanding government responses to dations contained in the supplementary reports. parliamentary committee reports. I seek leave In particular, the Government will seek to to incorporate the document in Hansard. implement: . the Committee’s recommendation that the new Leave granted. compulsory acquisition power be subject to a The document read as follows— time limit to provide additional certainty for minority shareholders (recommendation 3); GOVERNMENT RESPONSES TO PARLIA- . the recommendations to adopt proposals made MENTARY COMMITTEE REPORTS by the Companies and Securities Advisory RESPONSE TO THE SCHEDULE TABLED Committee in relation to the takeover provi- BY THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE sions of the Bill; SENATE ON 30 JUNE 1999 . the Committee’s recommendations to clarify Circulated by the Leader of the Government in the some of the procedural aspects of the takeover Senate and compulsory acquisition provisions (recom- mendations 2, 4, 5 and 6); Senator the Hon Robert Hill . the Committee’s recommendations in relation 8 December 1999 to the fundraising provisions of the Bill (rec- A NEW TAX SYSTEM (Senate Select) ommendations 8, 9 and 10); and First Report—February 1999 . the recommendation by the minority reports The Government has considered the recommen- that the ability to enforce orders of the Corpo- dations of the report when drafting the A New rations and Securities Panel be extended to Tax System legislation. persons other than the Australian Securities Main Report—April 1999 and Investments Commission. The Government has considered the recommen- The Committee’s recommendation that rollover dations of the report when drafting the A New relief from capital gains tax be provided in Tax System legislation. relation to takeovers and compulsory acquisition (recommendation 7) was considered in the Report on Commonwealth-State Financial context of the Review of Business Taxation. Arrangements Bills, Luxury Car Tax Bills and Recommendation 7 has been overtaken by the Wine Equalisation Bills Review’s recommendation that capital gains tax The Government has considered the recommen- rollover relief be allowed for scrip-for-scrip dations of the report when drafting the A New takeovers provided certain conditions are met. Tax System legislation. EMPLOYMENT, EDUCATION AND TRAIN- COMMUNITY AFFAIRS REFERENCES ING REFERENCES Access to medical records A class act: inquiry into the status of teachers The Government response is being finalised and and development of the teaching profession will be tabled as soon as possible. The Government response was tabled on 30 Child care funding November 1999. The Government response is being finalised and EMPLOYMENT, WORKPLACE RELATIONS, is expected to be tabled shortly. SMALL BUSINESS AND REFERENCES The Lucky Country Goes Begging—Report on Report of the Inquiry into the GST and A New the GST and the New Tax System Tax System The Government has considered the recommen- The Government has considered the recommen- dations of the report when drafting the A New dations of the report when drafting the A New Tax System legislation. Tax System legislation. CORPORATIONS AND SECURITIES (Joint ENVIRONMENT, RECREATION, COMMUNI- Statutory) CATIONS AND THE ARTS REFERENCES Provisions of the Corporate Law Economic Access to heritage: user charges in museums, Reform Program Bill 1998 art galleries and national parks The Government response to the recommenda- The Government response is expected to be tions of the report is, in effect, constituted in tabled in the 2000 autumn sittings. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11465

ENVIRONMENT, COMMUNICATIONS, LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL REFER- INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND THE ENCES ARTS REFERENCES Inquiry into the Commonwealth’s actions in Inquiry into the GST and A New Tax System relation to Ryker (Faulkner) v The Common- wealth and Flint The Government has considered the recommen- dations of the report when drafting the A New The Government response is close to being Tax System legislation. finalised. Inquiry into the Australian legal aid system (3rd Report on the powers of the Commonwealth in report) environment protection and ecologically-sustain- able development in Australia The Government response is expected to be tabled in the 2000 autumn sittings. Since the report was tabled, the Parliament has passed the Environment Protection and Inquiry into sexuality discrimination Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999, which The Government response is being prepared and effects a major reform in the Commonwealth’s will be tabled as soon as possible. environmental legislation. The Government Privacy and the Private Sector: Inquiry into response has been delayed by the need to con- privacy issues, including the Privacy Amend- sider the report in light of the new legislation. ment Bill 1998 The Government response is expected to be tabled in the 2000 autumn sittings. The Government response is being prepared and will be tabled as soon as possible Report on the Jabiluka uranium mine proposal MIGRATION (Joint Standing) The Government response is expected to be tabled in the 2000 autumn sittings. Australia’s visa system for visitors The Government response was tabled on 23 FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DEFENCE AND TRADE November 1999. (Joint Standing) Working holiday makers: More than tourists Defence Sub-committee: Visit to Sydney Har- bour foreshores defence properties, 14 Novem- The Government response was tabled on 2 ber 1997 September 1999. The Government response is expected to be Deportation of non-citizen criminals tabled shortly. The Government response is close to being finalised. Australia and ASEAN: Managing change Immigration detention centres inspection report The Government response is in preparation. The Government response was tabled on 2 Funding of Australia’s Defence September 1999. The Government response is expected to be Review of Migration Regulation 4.31B tabled shortly. The Government response is close to being Australia’s trade relationship with India finalised. NATIONAL CAPITAL AND EXTERNAL The Government response is in preparation. TERRITORIES (Joint Standing) Report on the loss of HMAS Sydney Island to islands: Communications with The Government response is expected to be Australia’s external territories tabled shortly. The Government response is being prepared and will be tabled as soon as possible. Military justice procedures in the Australian Defence Force NATIONAL CRIME AUTHORITY (Joint Statutory) The Government response is expected to be Third evaluation of the National Crime Authori- tabled shortly. ty FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DEFENCE AND TRADE Further consultation on the proposed Government REFERENCES response is expected to be held at the November Report on nuclear weapon and ballistic missile meeting of the Inter Governmental Committee proliferation in south Asia (IGC) on the National Crime Authority. Subject to the IGC it will then be possible to table the The Government response is in the final stage of Government response in the 2000 autumn sit- preparation. tings. 11466 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS AND AUDIT (Joint Review of Audit Report No. 34, 1997-98: New Statutory) Submarine Project, Department of Defence JCPAA Reports (Report No. 368) As a matter of general practice this explanatory The Government response to policy recommen- schedule does not include reports from the Joint dations is being prepared and will be tabled as Committee of Public Accounts and Audit unless soon as possible. such reports contain policy recommendations. Australian Government Procurement (Report Reports that address administrative or operational No. 369) matters are usually responded to in the form of Finance/Executive Minutes. These are normally The Government response was tabled on 23 provided to the Committee within six months of the November 1999. tabling of the report and are then tabled by the RURAL AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS AND Committee. TRANSPORT REFERENCES Asset management by Commonwealth agencies Commercial utilisation of Australian native (Report No. 363) wildlife The Finance Minute for this report was tabled on The Government response was tabled on 8 11 March 1999 (Final). December 1999. Advisory Report on the delayed provisions of the The Effect of Pricing and Slot Management Tax Law Improvement Bill (No. 2) 1997 (Report Arrangements at Kingsford Smith Airport on No. 364) Regional Airlines Communities The Committee made five recommendations in The Government response is being prepared and Report No. 364. Most of the recommendations will be tabled as soon as possible. related to the technical content of the provisions SUPERANNUATION (Senate Select) (recommendations 3, 4 and 5). Amendments in Resolving superannuation complaints (31st the Taxation Laws Amendment Act (No. 4) 1999, report) which received Royal Assent on 16 July 1999, gave effect to all these ‘technical content’ Before considering a response to the report, the recommendations. Government was awaiting the outcome of a High Court appeal to the Federal Court decision of Recommendation 2 of the report was beyond the Wilkinson v Clerical Administrative and Related Tax Law Improvement Projects terms of refer- Employees Superannuation Pty Ltd. The High ence. As part of the response to the Review of Court decision of Attorney General of the Business Taxation’s report, the Government has Commonwealth v Breckler & Ors was handed announced the New Business Tax System which down on 17 June 1999 in favour of the contains measures that will significantly improve Commonwealth. As a result, the Government’s the way in which capital gains tax relief is response to the report is: delivered to small business. This recommenda- tion will be considered in settling the detail of Recommendation 1 these measures. The Government accepted this recommendation. In response the Superannuation Legislation Recommendation 1 is procedural in nature. The Amendment (Resolution of Complaints) Act 1998 Review of Business Taxation has recommended was enacted in December 1998 to enable the the adoption of an ongoing tax simplification Superannuation Complaints Tribunal to arbitrate strategy. This recommendation will be considered complaints with the consent of the parties. In in the context of the Review’s recommendation. light of the High Court decision, the arbitration Annual Report 1997-98 (Report No. 365) powers ceased to have effect on 13 September 1999. No Finance Minute/Government response re- quired. Recommendation 2 This recommendation is no longer relevant in Review of Auditor-General’s report 1997-98, light of the High Court decision. As a result the Second quarter (Report No. 366) Government considers that a response is not The Government response to recommendation 3 necessary. was tabled on 21 October 1999. TREATIES (Joint) Review of Auditor-General’s report 1997-98, Treaties tabled on 18 March 1997 and 13 May Third quarter (Report No. 367) 1997 (8th report) The Government response is being prepared and The Government response is subject to continu- will be tabled as soon as possible. ing consultations. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11467

Agreement with Kasakstan, Treaties tabled on responses to Senate and joint committee reports as 30 September 1997 and 21 December 1997 (11th well as responses which remain outstanding. report) The practice of presenting this list to the Senate The Government response is in the final stages follows the resolution of the Senate of 14 March of preparation. 1973 and the undertaking by successive govern- Australia-Indonesia Maritime Delimitation ments to respond to parliamentary committee th Treaty (12 report) reports in timely fashion. On 26 May 1978 the then The Government response is subject to continu- Minister for Administrative Services (Senator ing consultations. Withers) informed the Senate that within six Treaties tabled 1 April and 12, 13 and 26 May months of the tabling of a committee report, the 1998 (15th report) responsible Minister would make a statement in the The Government response is in the final stages Parliament outlining the action the Government of preparation. proposed to take in relation to the report. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (17th period for responses was reduced from six months report) to three months in 1983 by the then incoming The Government response is being considered government. The then Leader of the Government and will be tabled shortly. in the Senate announced this change on 24 August Multilateral Agreement on Investment: Final 1983. The method of response continued to be by Report (18th report) way of statement. Subsequently, on 16 October 1991 the former Government advised that responses The Government response was tabled on 30 to committee reports would be made by letter to a November 1999. committee chairman, with the letter being tabled in The Fifth Protocol to the General Agreement on the Senate at the earliest opportunity. The current Trade in Services and Five Treaties tabled on 30 th Government in June 1996 affirmed its commitment June 1998 (19 Report) to respond to relevant parliamentary committee The Government response is in preparation. reports within three months of their presentation. Two Treaties tabled on 26 May 1998, the Bougainville Peace Monitoring Group Protocol The list does not usually include reports of the and Treaties tabled on 11 November 1998 (20th Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Report) Works or the following Senate Standing Commit- tees: Appropriations and Staffing, Selection of The Government response is in preparation. st Bills, Privileges, Procedure, Publications, Regula- Five Treaties tabled on 16 February 1999 (21 tions and Ordinances and Scrutiny of Bills. How- Report) ever, such reports will be included if they require The Government response is in preparation. a response. Government responses to reports of the Five Treaties tabled on 11 May 1999 (22nd Public Works Committee are normally reflected in Report) motions for the approval of works after the relevant The Government response is in preparation. report has been presented and considered. Respons- es to reports of the Joint Committee of Public Reports: Government Responses Accounts and Audit are usually made in the form The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT of Finance Minutes which are tabled by the com- (Senator Knowles) (4.34 p.m.)—In accord- mittee. Where a response has been made by way of ance with the usual practice, I table a list of Finance Minute, the date of presentation has been parliamentary committee reports to which the appropriately annotated. government has not responded within the pre- Legislation committees report on bills and on the scribed period. The list has been circulated to provisions of bills. Only those reports in this honourable senators. With the concurrence of category that make recommendations which cannot the Senate, the list will be incorporated in readily be implemented through the bill, and therefore require a response, are listed. The list also Hansard. does not include reports by legislation committees The list read as follows— on estimates or scrutiny of annual reports. PRESIDENT’S REPORT TO THE SENATE A guide to the legend used in the ‘Date response ON GOVERNMENT RESPONSES OUT- presented/made to the Senate’ column STANDING TO PARLIAMENTARY COM- MITTEE REPORTS * See document tabled in the Senate on 8 Decem- ber 1999, entitled Government Responses to AS AT 8 DECEMBER 1999 Parliamentary Committee Reports-Response to PREFACE the schedule tabled by the Deputy President on This document continues the practice of presenting 30 June 1999, for Government interim/final to the Senate twice each year a list of Government response. 11468 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

A New Tax System (Senate Select) First report—February 1999 18.2.99 *(final) No Main report—April 1999 19.4.99 *(final) No Report on Commonwealth-State Financial Arrangements Bills, Luxury Car Tax Bills and 30.4.99 *(final) No Wine Equalisation Bills

Australian Security Intelligence Organization (Joint Standing) Advisory report on the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation Legislation Amend- 13.5.99 25.11.99 No ment Bill 1999

Community Affairs Legislation Report on the Australian New Zealand Food Authority Bill 1999 11.8.99 - No

Community Affairs References Access to medical records 26.6.97 *(interim) No Child care funding 9.12.98 *(interim) No The lucky country goes begging—Report on the GST and the new tax system 30.3.99 *(final) No Report on proposals for changes to the welfare 22.11.99 - Time not system expired Rocking the cradle—A report into childbirth 8.12.99 - Time not procedures expired

Corporations and Securities (Joint Statu- tory) Provisions of the Corporate Law Economic Reform Program Bill 1998 12.5.99 *(final) No Report on matters arising from the Company Law Review Act 1998 21.10.99 - Time not expired

Economics References A new reactor at Lucas Heights 1.9.99 - No

Employment, Education and Training Re- ferences A class act: inquiry into the status of teachers and development of the teaching profession 31.3.98 30.11.99 No

Employment, Workplace Relations, Small Business and Education References Report of the inquiry into the GST and a new 31.3.99 *(final) No tax system Jobs for the regions: A report on regional employment and unemployment 30.9.99 - Time not expired Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11469

Environment, Recreation, Communications and the Arts References Access to heritage: user charges in museums, art galleries and national parks 11.7.98 *(interim) No

Environment, Communications, Information Technology and the Arts References Inquiry into the GST and a new tax system 29.3.99 *(final) No Report on the powers of the Commonwealth in environment protection and ecologically-sus- tainable development in Australia 27.5.99 *(interim) No Jabiluka: The undermining of process—Report of the inquiry into the Jabiluka uranium mine 30.6.99 *(interim) No proposal Report on the development of Hinchinbrook 27.9.99 - Time not Channel expired

Finance and Public Administration Legisla- tion Format of the Portfolio Budget Statements (2nd 22.11.99 (pre- - Time not report) sented expired 29.10.99)

Finance and Public Administration Refer- ences Inquiry into business taxation reform 22.11.99 - Time not expired

Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade (Joint) Defence Sub-committee: Visit to Sydney Har- bour foreshores defence properties, 14 Novem- 23.3.98 *(interim) No ber 1997 Australia and ASEAN: Managing change 6.4.98 *(interim) No Funding of Australia’s defence 8.5.98 *(interim) No Australia’s trade relationship with India 29.6.98 *(interim) No Report on the loss of HMAS Sydney 22.3.99 *(interim) No Military justice procedures in the Australian 21.6.99 *(interim) No Defence Force Defence Sub-committee—Visit to defence establishments in northern Australia, 26-29 27.9.99 Not required - July 1999 Bougainville: The peace process and beyond 27.9.99 - Time not expired World debt: Report on the proceedings of a 6.12.99 - Time not seminar, 27 August 1999, Canberra expired 11470 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Refer- ences The 1998 Indian and Pakistani nuclear tests (Report on nuclear weapon and ballistic 30.6.99 *(interim) No missile proliferation in south Asia) Interim report—East Timor 30.9.99 Not required -

Legal and Constitutional Legislation Family Law Amendment Bill 1999 6.12.99 - Time not expired

Legal and Constitutional References Inquiry into the Commonwealth’s actions in 30.4.96 *(interim) No relation to Ryker (Faulkner) v The Common- (presented wealth and Flint 29.4.96) Inquiry into sexuality discrimination 2.12.97 *(interim) No Inquiry into the Australian legal aid system,3rd 25.6.98 *(interim) No report Privacy and the private sector: Inquiry into privacy issues, including the Privacy Amend- 25.3.99 *(interim) No ment Bill 1998

Migration (Joint) Australia’s visa system for visitors 30.4.96 23.11.99 No (presented 27.1.96) Working holiday makers: more than tourists 3.9.97 2.9.99 No Deportation of non-citizen criminals 29.6.98 *(interim) No Immigration detention centres inspection report 10.11.98 (pre- 2.9.99 No sented 27.8.98) Review of Migration Regulation 4.31B 31.5.99 *(interim) No Going for gold—Immigration entry arrange- ments for the Olympic and Paralympic Games 27.9.99 - Time not expired

National Capital and External Territories (Joint) Island to islands: Communications with Australia’s external territories 22.3.99 *(interim) No

National Crime Authority (Joint Statutory) Third evaluation of the National Crime Auth- 6.4.98 *(interim) No ority Street legal: The involvement of the National Crime Authority in controlled operations 6.12.99 - Time not expired

Native Title and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Land Fund (Joint Statutory) Fourteenth report—Examination of annual 1.9.99 Not required - reports for 1997-98 Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11471

Fifteenth report—Interim report for the s.206(d) inquiry, proceedings of conference on 13.10.99 Not required - 12 March 1999

Public Accounts and Audit (Joint Statutory) Advisory report on the delayed provisions of the Tax Law Improvement Bill (No. 2) 1997 21.12.98 *(final) No (Report No. 364) Annual report 1997-98 (Report No. 365) 11.3.99 *(final) No Review of Auditor-General’s reports 1997-98, Second quarter (Report No. 366) 30.3.99 21.10.99 No Review of Auditor-General’s reports 1997-98, Third quarter (Report No. 367) 30.3.99 *(interim) No Review of Audit Report No. 34, 1997-98: New submarine project, Department of Defence 9.6.99 *(interim) No (Report No. 368) Australian government procurement (Report 30.6.99 23.11.99 No No. 369) Defence life cycle costing; Commonwealth guarantees, indemnities and letters of comfort; and review of Auditor-General’s reports 1997- 8.12.99 - Time not 98, Fourth quarter (Report No. 370) expired Review of Auditor-General’s reports 1998-99, First half—Aviation security, costing of ser- vices and planning of aged care (Report No. 20.10.99 - Time not 371) expired

Republic Referendum (Joint Select) Advisory report on the Constitution Alteration (Establishment of a Republic) 1999 and the Presidential Nominations Committee Bill 1999 9.8.99 11.8.99 Yes

Retailing Sector (Joint Select) Fair market or market failure?: A review of Australia’s retailing sector 30.8.99 - No

Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Report on the Australian Quarantine and In- 7.12.99 Not required - spection Service and the importation of salmon (Interim report)

Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Commercial utilisation of Australian native 30.6.98 8.12.99 No wildlife The effect of pricing and slot management arrangements at Kingsford Smith Airport on 31.3.99 *(interim) No regional airlines communities Deregulation of the Australian dairy industry 21.10.99 - Time not expired 11472 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Socio-Economic Consequences of the Nation- al Competition Policy (Senate Select) Interim report—Competition policy: Friend or foe—Economic surplus, social deficit? 12.8.99 - No

Superannuation (Senate Select) Resolving superannuation complaints (31st 12.7.98 *(final) No report)

Superannuation and Financial Services (Senate Select) Report on the Choice of Superannuation Funds (Consumer Protection) Bill 1999 22.11.99 Not required - Report on the Superannuation Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1999 30.11.99 Not required -

Treaties (Joint) Treaties tabled on 18 March and 13 May 1997 23.6.97 *(interim) No (8th report) Agreement with Kasakstan; treaties tabled on 30 September and 21 October 1997 (11th re- 24.11.97 *(interim) No port) Australia-Indonesia Maritime Delimitation 1.12.97 *(interim) No Treaty (12th report) Treaties tabled 1 April and 12, 13 and 26 May 1998 (15th report) 2.7.98 *(interim) No UN Convention on the Rights of the Child 10.11.98 (pre- *(interim) No (17th report) sented 28.8.98) Multilateral Agreement on Investment: Final report (18th report) 22.3.99 30.11.99 No The Fifth Protocol to the General Agreement on Trade in Services and five treaties tabled on 23.3.99 *(interim) No 30 June 1998 (19th report) Two treaties tabled on 26 May 1998, the Bougainville Peace Monitoring Group Protocol and treaties tabled on 11 November 1998 (20th 29.3.99 *(interim) No report) Five treaties tabled on 16 February 1999 (21st 7.6.99 *(interim) No report) Five treaties tabled on 11 May 1999 (22nd 28.6.99 *(interim) No report) Amendments proposed to the International 23.8.99 - No Whaling Convention (23rd report) A seminar on the role of parliaments in treaty 30.8.99 - No making (24th report) Eight treaties tabled on 11 August 1999 (25th 27.9.99 - Time not report) expired An agreement to extend the period of operation 18.10.99 - Time not of the Joint Defence Facility at Pine Gap (26th expired report) Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11473

Termination of Social Security Agreement with the United Kingdom; and International Plant Protection Convention (27th report) 6.12.99 - Time not expired Fourteen treaties tabled on 12 October 1999 6.12.99 Not required - (28th report)

SENATORS’ TRAVELLING drawal of the former Soviet Union from that ALLOWANCES country. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT This was a country that was left rather (Senator Knowles) (4.34 p.m.)—I table a impoverished by the former Soviet Union and document providing details of travel allow- its regime, but the people there are making ance payments made by the Department of the great strides in their efforts to catch up. They Senate to senators and members during the have applied for entry into the European period January to June 1999. Union. They are one of five countries that are in a group involved in discussions and nego- PARLIAMENTARIANS’ TRAVEL tiations that are taking place that may result COSTS in their getting next entry into the European Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— Union. They regard that as a very important Minister for Industry, Science and Resources) milestone. They regard having an economy (4.34 p.m.)—I table a document providing that enables them to make the choice as to details of parliamentarians’ travel costs paid whether they become members of the mon- by the Department of Finance and Adminis- etary union or not as very important to them tration for the period January to June 1999. as well. DELEGATION REPORTS We were extremely honoured in Estonia to be given an audience with the President of Australian Parliamentary Delegation to Estonia, Mr Meri, and to hear the stories not Estonia and Sweden just of Mr Meri but of other people who had Senator WEST (New South Wales) (4.35 suffered and been incarcerated and exiled p.m.)—by leave—I present the report of the because of their opposition to the Soviet Australian Parliamentary Delegation to regime and because of their great love of and Estonia and Sweden, which took place from desire for freedom and democracy. Their 24 October to 29 October 1999. In doing so, stories were almost chilling for us, as we I would like to pay tribute to the members of come from a democracy where no blood has the delegation: my deputy, Senator John been spilt and no hardship has been endured Watson; Mr Laurie Ferguson, the member for to gain democracy, and where we regard Reid; Mrs De-Anne Kelly, the member for elections as a bit ho-hum and run-of-the-mill. Dawson; Mr Gary Nairn, the member for For them, an election is very important. For Eden-Monaro; Senator the Hon. Nick Sherry, them, democracy is sacred and of the utmost a senator for Tasmania; and the parliamentary importance. committee secretary to the delegation, Mr We also had the honour to be escorted by Richard Selth, who is from the Senate com- the Honorary Consul-General of the Republic mittee on the environment. This was a short of Estonia to Australia, Dr Malle Tohver, who trip of six days in total to the two countries, spent the time with us when we were in but it was a very busy, enjoyable and interest- Estonia. We appreciated her making the effort ing one. It was only the second delegation to come back to Estonia to accompany the from the Australian parliament to actually get delegation. One of the highlights was that, as in to visit the parliament of Estonia—the first entertainment on the Monday night, they one was led by Mr Stephen Martin about four arranged for us to attend a piano recital by or five years ago—since the recommencement Vladimir Ashkenazy, one of the world’s noted of independence in 1991 following the with- pianists. It was really fantastic. We were all 11474 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 rather tired and jet lagged but were kept came with Banks on the Endeavour voyages. awake by this beautiful music and wonderful It was a very interesting time. pianist. We certainly appreciated the honour We were accompanied throughout by of attending that recital. Stephen Brady, the Australian Ambassador to With a guide, we were able to explore the Sweden; in both Sweden and Estonia by Rick old town of Tallinn, which is a medieval city Nimmo, who is the first secretary of the surrounded by all the old buildings from the embassy; and also by Andrea Gleason from Soviet time, so there is a huge contrast. The the embassy, who was very much involved weather was cold but the hospitality and with the program for the spouses in Stock- welcome were very warm. We certainly holm and the Swedish side of the visit. appreciated that. I would like to pay a great tribute to our The contrast between Estonia and Sweden embassy in Stockholm. It is only small but is very marked. Sweden is a democracy—it is covers something like six or seven countries a monarchy—and has been for many years. It in that region. From the reception that our is one of the original democracies. The embassy officials were getting, it is quite political system is established and is very obvious that they work exceedingly hard. much a consensus style of democracy. They They are on top of all the issues and are regard their style of consensus as very import- making sure that Australia’s presence is felt ant. We spent a day at the Riksdag, the and that Australia’s point of view is raised. parliament of Sweden, and observed proceed- We were certainly able to hold discussions ings of the parliament, as we had done in with the two countries about the commitments Estonia. Also, we were able to meet with a of other countries besides Australia in East number of the parliamentary committees, of Timor. We should be very proud of the work which there are many, and hold discussions of our embassy in Stockholm because it is a with them. The amazing thing about both very hardworking embassy. I commend the Estonia and Sweden was the very limited use embassy staff for the efforts that they made we made of interpreters. The command of to make sure our trip was very enjoyable. English by all members of the committees The report, I am pleased to say, is out in a was high. I think some of them spoke better speedy fashion. I thank Richard Selth for the English than did the Australian delegation. many hours he has spent on it. I would also We did not spend all of our time in Sweden like to pay tribute to the hospitality that was in Stockholm. We went down to Orebro and extended to us and arranged by the Speaker were able to inspect a lead and zinc mine, of the Riksdag and the Speaker of the Zinkgruvan, owned by North Limited, which Riigikogu in Estonia and to say thank you to is, of course, an Australian company. It was them for the efforts they made. It was a very very interesting to see that mine and, for me, enlightening trip. We learnt a lot more about to contrast that with the silver, lead and zinc those countries, and I think they learnt a lot mine at Broken Hill. It is a huge contrast and more about us. With those remarks, on behalf was very interesting for us all. We also met of everybody I would say thank you for this the Governor of Orebro and had luncheon timely report to the parliament. with her in her castle, which is quite magnifi- Australian Parliamentary Delegation to cent. She is also a very interesting lady to talk Italy to. On the final day, we had a half-day trip up Inter-parliamentary Conference, Berlin to Uppsala, which is the home town of Senator McKIERNAN (Western Australia) Birgitta Dahl, who is the Speaker of the (4.45 p.m.)—by leave—I present the report of Riksdag. It was very interesting to see her a parliamentary delegation to Italy on 2 to 8 home area, to visit the university there—it is October 1999 and to the 102nd inter-parlia- the major university in Sweden—and also to mentary conference in Berlin on 9 to 16 visit the library and look at some of the October 1999. I had the unexpected honour of original botanical drawings by Solander, who leading the Australian parliamentary deleg- Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11475 ation to Italy from 2 to 8 October and to the Australian parliament and the people of this 102nd inter-parliamentary conference in nation for this commitment and to reinforce Berlin from 9 to 16 October 1999. I stood in the need for a sustained commitment over the for the designated leader, the Hon. Alex coming years so that East Timor takes its Somlyay, who unfortunately became ill on the place in the international community. In this way over to Rome and could not continue regard, the delegation was encouraged by the with the delegation. His presence was greatly comments from Senator Toia, the undersecre- missed on the delegation. The delegation tary for foreign affairs. closed ranks and achieved its aims and objec- tives in a way that brought great credit to The Italian program for the visit focused Australia. initially upon Florence and Tuscany, a region- al area with strong links to Australia. Florence In speaking this afternoon, I take this has sister city status with Sydney. Yarn and opportunity to embarrass Mr Neil Bessell, fabric manufacturers import fine quality who is sitting at the table in front of you, Australian wool and wine and olive oil Madam Acting Deputy President. Mr Bessell producers export to Australia and closely is a wonderful individual with an extraordi- liaise with our local manufacturers. The nary ability to remain calm in sometimes program then moved to Rome, where arrange- volatile situations. I mention Mr Bessell ments had been made for the delegation to because he was the secretary to the deleg- meet the speaker of the Italian Chamber of ation. He performed that duty in an extremely Deputies and hold extensive discussions with diligent fashion, which was a credit to him the chairs and members of six parliamentary and the Senate in general. His good counsel, committees. which was sought by many during our visit to both Berlin and Italy, was much appreciated The delegation also participated in a public by all who received it. audience and was received by His Holiness If he was not such an asset to the Senate Pope John Paul II at St Peter’s Square in the chamber, I suggest that Mr Bessell might Vatican. On a personal note, with my interest make a wonderful diplomat for the Depart- in migration and citizenship matters, I found ment of Foreign Affairs and Trade. I publicly most interesting our meeting with Senator take this opportunity to thank Neil for the Toia, the undersecretary for foreign affairs. assistance given to this delegation and other We discussed in detail constitutional reforms IPU delegations. I am sure that you will in Italy to establish a parliamentary electorate agree, Madam Acting Deputy President, what for Italians abroad and its implications for an asset he is to the parliament, to these Australia. delegations and to the IPU. He will be missed While this meeting was occurring, other by the IPU itself. Well done, Neil. It is a members of the delegation were meeting with credit to you. We will miss you on the next Monsignor Migliore, the undersecretary for delegation for the IPU conference, which will relations with states for the Holy See. I know be held in Oman and Jordan. that my colleague Senator Hogg particularly I will return to the report while Neil recov- found this a valuable opportunity to explain ers his composure. The visit to Italy was Australia’s position on East Timor. The productive, highly informative and indeed delegation is very grateful to a number of enjoyable. There is no doubt that relations people, including the Italian parliament and between Australia and Italy, based as they are the speaker of the Chamber of Deputies, for on trade and migration, are well-established the hospitality rendered to the delegation and harmonious. This relationship is re- whilst there. We are also very grateful to the inforced by the fact that Italy has committed Australian ambassador to Italy, His Excellen- 600 defence personnel to the Australian-led cy Rory Steele, and particularly Mr Phillip INTERFET mission in East Timor. I can Stonehouse and other staff at the embassy. assure senators that the delegation took every We thank them sincerely for their assistance opportunity to express the appreciation of the during our visit to Italy. 11476 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

The report I have just presented also re- people apart from Mr Bessell that I will single cords the delegation’s contribution to the out for special mention. work of the 102nd inter-parliamentary confer- I would particularly like to acknowledge on ence in Berlin. I am pleased to indicate that the record Rosa Ferranda and Janice the Australian delegation took a leading role Scarrabotolo, officers of the Department of in the IPU’s deliberations and resolutions. the Senate, who translated into Italian a three- This contribution is summarised on page 26 page brochure including biographies on the of the delegation report and includes Australia delegates. The brochure was greatly appreciat- submitting a memorandum and draft resolu- ed by our hosts and assisted the delegation so tions on the need to revise the current global much that we ran out of them on the second financial and economic muddle. Mrs Gallus, day of our visit. It is a lesson for the future. a member of the delegation from the other I would also like to recognise the continuing place, participated in the debate and chaired assistance that delegations such as ours the drafting committee on the topic. receive from Brenda Herd in the Parlia- Australia submitted a memorandum and mentary Relations Office and Judith Kelly in draft resolution on the contribution of parlia- Senate finance. ments to ensuring respect for, and promoting Delegations cannot be successful if mem- international humanitarian law on, the occa- bers of the delegation do not work together, sion of the 50th anniversary of the Geneva particularly in circumstances such as when we conventions. I participated in this debate. For lost our leader on the way over. I thank the my sins, I ended up chairing the drafting acting deputy leader of the delegation, Mrs committee on the topic. Gallus, and my other colleagues Mrs Crosio, Mr Barresi and Senator Hogg for their co- Senator Hogg participated in the debate on operation and commitment. I commend the the supplementary item to the agenda. This report to the Senate. involved the contribution of parliaments to the peaceful coexistence of ethnic, cultural and COMMITTEES religious minorities, including migrant popula- tions, within one state marked by tolerance Rural and Regional Affairs and and full respect for human rights. Mrs Crosio Transport References Committee and Mrs Gallus participated in the meeting of Report: Government Response women parliamentarians. Mrs Crosio and Mr Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (4.53 Barresi contributed to the general debate held p.m.)—by leave—I wish to return to the during the conference. Both of them spoke on report of the Rural and Regional Affairs and the situation in East Timor. Finally, I was Transport References Committee on the elected to the vice-presidency of the second commercial utilisation of Australian native committee on parliamentary, judicial and wildlife. I missed the call by about 10 sec- human rights questions. onds. If I had continued my tennis on a The IPU is about dialogue and goodwill Thursday morning, I would have made it. between parliamentarians. The delegation was That is life, as they say. pleased to hold specific meetings with mem- I wanted to speak briefly on this report bers of the Yugoslav and Indonesian IPU because it is one where the Democrats wel- delegations. The level of participation was come very much the government’s response certainly in keeping with the commitment and in this area. I certainly welcome the way in contributions of previous delegations. We are which the Minister for the Environment and actively exploring the possibility of expanding Heritage, Senator Robert Hill, and his office Australia’s profile at this important interna- have dealt with this report and their positive tional parliamentary forum. The report rightly response to it. It is good to work with the acknowledges the contributions of many government or with anyone in this place when people in Australia, Italy and Berlin who you get such a positive response and a re- assisted the delegation. There are a couple of sponse that is not necessarily political, al- Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11477 though politics play a part in everything. The Finally, we recommended that there should Senate report’s recommendations were taken be inclusion of indigenous people where at face value and were responded to in terms commercial opportunities related to wildlife of what was proposed. were identified on those lands where indigen- The inquiry was conducted over 18 months ous people have strong traditional links to the and took over 300 written submissions. It land and also that there should be a discus- reported in June last year. The report called sion of the intellectual property rights of for an overhaul of wildlife protection laws, indigenous people aimed at resolving the stronger animal welfare codes of conduct and flaws in existing legislation. In relation to study of indigenous subsistence use of native that, there has been the High Court decision wildlife. I chaired the committee and it was, in the case of Murrandoo Yanner about his at times, a very controversial committee. The right to hunt traditional animals on his tradi- report did not please everybody, but it is an tional land. That is a very controversial ongoing issue. That is why I am very happy decision of the High Court which highlights to respond to the government’s response to the need for the government to pursue this this report. issue. I believe that Australia’s native wildlife I am glad that the government has respond- populations are our most precious assets, but ed positively. I am very happy to receive the the laws on native wildlife protection across government’s response. I will have to study the various states and between the states and it in much more detail. This is an initial the Commonwealth are a dog’s breakfast. response. If I have any criticisms, I guess That has been recognised. I note that the there will be an opportunity later on to raise federal government has accepted eight of the those. But my initial response is a very Senate report’s 12 recommendations. It has positive one in terms of what was tabled by not rejected the other four. This is a real the minister today. chance to fix the problems which the report Membership highlighted. I am glad to say it is one report that has not gathered dust on the shelf but has The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT been responded to in a very positive way. I (Senator Knowles)—Madam President has would like to highlight three of the issues that received a letter from a party leader seeking were raised to illustrate what I am saying. variations to the membership of certain committees. One of the recommendations was that the Motion (by Senator Minchin)—by leave— federal government should conduct a feasibili- agreed to: ty study for a trial of large-scale native wildlife farming to see whether large-scale That senators be discharged from and appointed native wildlife farming could replace domestic to committees as follows: species in the Australian rangelands. This was Environment, Communications, Information a recommendation from Dr Graham Webb of Technology and the Arts Legislation and Refer- the Northern Territory. I am glad that the ences Committees— government has proposed a series of steps Participating member: Senator Hutchins whereby this could be taken up. Legal and Constitutional References Commit- tee— Another one of the recommendations was Substitute member: Senator Crossin to replace to encourage private sector investment in Senator Ludwig for the committee’s inquiry biodiversity conservation. Senator Lyn Allison into the Government’s response to the recom- from the Democrats has already visited a mendations of the report, Bringing Them number of the sanctuaries run by Dr John Home Walmsley, specifically Warrawong in Adel- Participating members: aide and Yookamurra in South Australia. This Senator Crossin for the committee’s inquiry has been with the encouragement of Senator into matters arising from the introduction of Hill so that we can begin to take up that the Human Rights (Mandatory Sentencing of particular recommendation. Juvenile Offenders) Bill 1999 11478 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Senator Ludwig for the committee’s inquiry a document on my trip to Tibet. I have not into the Government’s response to the recom- had a response from the government on this mendations of the report, Bringing Them matter. I will get another report and give it to Home. the government again, but I do want consider- BUDGET 1999-2000 ation of that document so that I can, if all parties are willing, table it before the day is Additional Estimates out. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Knowles) (4.58 p.m.)—I table the BILLS RETURNED FROM THE portfolio additional estimates statement for HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 1999-2000 for the Joint House Department. Messages received from the House of Copies of this document will shortly be distri- Representatives agreeing to the amendments buted to interested senators. Additional copies made by the Senate to the following bills: will be available from the Senate Table Social Security (Administration) Bill 1999 Office. Social Security (Administration and International Additional Estimates Agreements) (Consequential Amendments) Bill Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— 1999 Minister for Industry, Science and Resources) BILLS RETURNED FROM THE (4.59 p.m.)—by leave—I table the following HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES documents: Particulars of proposed additional expenditure for the service of the year ending Messages received from the House of on 30 June 2000 [Appropriation Bill (No. 3) Representatives agreeing to the amendments 1999-2000], Particulars of proposed additional made and insisted on by the Senate to the expenditure for the service of the year ending following bills: on 30 June 2000 [Appropriation Bill (No. 4) Federal Magistrates Bill 1999 1999-2000], and Statement of savings expect- Federal Magistrates (Consequential Amendments) ed in annual appropriations made by Act No. Bill 1999 46 of 1999 (Appropriation Act (No. 1) 1999- 2000), Act No. 47 of 1999 (Appropriation Act TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT (No. 2) 1999-2000), and Act No. 48 of 1999 BILL (No. 8) 1999 (Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) In Committee Act 1999-2000). Consideration resumed. Additional Estimates The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— tor Murphy)—The committee is considering Minister for Industry, Science and Resources) Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No. 8) 1999 (5.00 p.m.)—I table portfolio additional as amended, and amendments 10 on sheet estimates statements for 1999-2000 for port- 1669 and (1) and (2) on sheet 1677 moved by folios and executive departments in accord- Senator Bartlett. The question is that the ance with the list circulated in the chamber. amendments be agreed to. Copies of these documents will shortly be distributed to interested senators. Additional Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.02 p.m.)— copies are available from the Senate Table Before the debate was adjourned earlier in the Office. day, I was saying that these are good amend- ments and ought to be adopted. The Minister DOCUMENTS for the Environment and Heritage, Robert Hill, has indicated that there are difficulties Tabling because of the complexity of costing the Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.01 p.m.)— amendments, which would, for example, Madam Acting Deputy President, during the extend tax deductibility to any value lost on lunch time debate on matters of public im- a property or reasons of covenanting to portance I gave notice that I would be tabling protect native vegetation and so on. There is Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11479 also some assessment to be done with the because the Treasury has not yet worked out proposal in amendments coming next that the how to do the assessments of what this will tax deductibility be allowed to be spread over cost. five years. If a donor of a block of land for Senator Hill has flagged that he has amend- environmental purposes values that land at $1 ments that next year will cover much of this million and the land is of high environmental field. Maybe we could hear a little more value, it is logical that they get the same about what is intended there so that it is on benefits as somebody who donates a painting the record and we have some more concrete which is worth $1 million. Under legislation, reassurance that the excellent measures in- the person who denotes the painting will be volved in these Democrat and Green amend- able to spread tax deductibility over five ments are not simply going to be consigned years, obviously gaining benefits from that, to oblivion. There it is. On the one hand, I do but the person who donates the block of not want to see the legislation fail. On the land—part of the national heritage—will not other hand, I do not want to see the amend- get that advantage. ments, which obviously have the majority Let me reiterate how important this legislation support in this committee, dismissed and put is and my earlier commendation of Senator on the sideboard. I think that in the next 24 Hill for bringing it into this place. It is break- hours we have to come to a pretty honest through legislation, because for the first time arrangement about that so that all interests are it means that a citizen who donates a block of best served and, in particular, this break- land—which has rare and endangered species through legislation is not consigned to oblivi- or which is of great heritage amenity to the on. It is too important for that. Once again—it nation—to an entity like the Australian Bush is rare that I am in the position of being able Heritage Fund or the several trusts in various to do this—I congratulate the minister for states set up specifically to look after land in bringing the legislation forward. perpetuity, with the purpose of protecting an Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (5.08 ecosystem or some feature or living entity— p.m.)—Following on from the comments wildlife or plant life—will know that it is Senator Brown has made, I note that he did going to be protected forever. The idea here, challenge the government that Senator Hill to shorthand it, is to ensure that people who amplify and clarify his earlier statement. make donations towards private national parks Could the government indicate whether they where there is a guarantee that they are going intend to do that. to be protected in perpetuity will get a tax advantage from that. Two days ago we were Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant discussing in here and I was opposing a Treasurer) (5.08 p.m.)—I believe this matter change in the diesel fuel grant system— was extensively discussed and Senator Hill has made a very comprehensive statement. I Senator Kemp—Well done! He is a fast do not wish to detain the committee; I think learner. we have got a lot on our plate. Senator Hill, Senator BROWN—The minister will be to pick up in a sense the spirit of Senator pleased. I was opposing a change in that Brown, said: system that gives a tax break if you want to We think, as I said, that we have made a historic put diesel in your bulldozer and go ripping start along this road of encouraging the disposition into the forests. How much more important it of property for conservation purposes, and we are is from my point of view that we give a tax prepared as a government to seriously consider break to somebody who wants to protect other initiatives during the course of next year. forests and donates land to an entity like the Senator Hill went on to say: Australian Bush Heritage Fund. I support the The government’s view is that they should be amendments, but I am concerned that this seriously considered during the course of next process may lead to us seeing, tomorrow, a year—obviously not surprisingly in relation to the rejection of these amendments in the Reps— cost as well as the issue of effectiveness—and then not because they are not meritorious but the government can make a decision as to which 11480 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 further initiatives, if any, it should take, within the have to satisfy the requirements which are set budgetary constraints— out in the act. I thought I had said something controversial. Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— You made me a little nervous, Senator Brown, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.13 as you charged across the chamber towards p.m.)—I thank the minister for that answer as me. Nevertheless, let me continue. Senator far as it goes, but my question went to what Hill said: aspects of the tax act, or other rulings that . . . within the budgetary constraints of the govern- might be relevant here, a charitable trust has ment but also with the objective of getting the most to comply with in relation to this issue of a effective outcome in terms of conservation for charitable trust receiving a gift for the pur- whatever commitment the government might be poses of this particular bill. I appreciate what prepared to make in relation to revenue forgone. the minister has said, but if he could provide So Senator Hill has made a statement. We a little bit more information to the committee welcome the encouraging comments that that might be helpful. Senator Brown has made in the sense that that Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant is a very important start, and certainly that is Treasurer) (5.14 p.m.)—The gift provisions the government’s position. have various criteria. There is one which Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (5.10 relates to PBIs and there are others as well. I p.m.)—Just a couple of other matters of do not know that we can be more specific clarification: are the remainder of the amend- than that. My advisers tell me that we cannot ments that the Democrats were having pre- be more specific than that, that they have to pared being completed? satisfy the various criteria; for example, if it Senator Bartlett—I do not have any others was a PBI, the criteria for being a PBI. to move. Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— Senator SHERRY—So we are just going Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.14 to deal with the amendments to this particular p.m.)—Thank you again, Minister, but if I can schedule. put it in my layman’s language I am sure this might assist the minister or his advisers. What The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- I would like to know, Minister, is: can a tor Murphy)—We are currently dealing with charitable trust—I am using that terminology amendments No. 10 on 1669 and Nos 1 and deliberately because it is charitable trusts that 2 on 1677, which have been moved together I am interested in—receive a gift deductible by leave. I am informed that No. 10 has been donation from a corporation or a company? amended. The question is that the amend- That is an important issue that I would like ments so moved be agreed to. clarified before we move to finalise the matter Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— that is before the chair. Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.11 Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant p.m.)—I have a quick question for the Treasurer) (5.15 p.m.)—If it satisfies the minister at the table in relation to charitable criteria in the law, a charitable trust can trusts. I think this is the appropriate time to receive, from my understanding, a gift do so. On what basis can a charitable trust deductible donation from a company. But it receive gifts for the purposes of the bill? has to satisfy, for example, criteria in relation What aspects of the tax act are involved, or to being a PBI. Does that assist you any are there any rulings that a charitable trust further, Senator? would have to comply with? I would under- Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— stand this a bit better if the minister could Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.16 provide me with that information. p.m.)—It does since you have just indicated Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant to me that this is the case. Could you advise Treasurer) (5.12 p.m.)—I am advised that the committee whether a charitable trust has there is no specific reference to charitable to comply with section 23E of the tax act, trusts in the bill. A charitable trust would which deals with the tax exempt status of Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11481 charitable trusts? That would be useful infor- sees as the problem? We have figures from mation for the committee. the CSIRO of an approximate cost— Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant something similar to $2 million to $4 Treasurer) (5.17 p.m.)—The mere fact that it million—and I am just trying to pin down the is exempt under section 26E does not give it government a bit more about the detail of its gift deductible status. We are talking about, concern. for example, whether it is a PBI. I gather that Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant is what you are referring to. I can see that we Treasurer) (5.19 p.m.)—I am not sure that I are not making great progress. Are there any can at this stage assist you further. I was matters that you would like to put on notice? aware there was some extensive debate, if I I am slightly concerned as we have some remember correctly, with Senator Ian Camp- specific advisers here but we may need other bell. I do not wish to traverse that area, but specialists in tax law. we note your concerns. I am not sure I am Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— able to provide you at this stage with any Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.17 additional costs. p.m.)—I indicate to the minister that I think Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (5.20 that is not a satisfactory answer to the point p.m.)—You are right: it was Senator Ian I would like to progress but I am advised—as Campbell and not you. It is was more to the is often so welcomed—by the clerks at the rant end of the argument level. table that this matter might be better pursued Senator Kemp—Oh! a little later in the committee stage debate. I am very happy to accept that and I might Senator SHERRY—I do not want to be come back to this in a short while after the harsh at this time of year but it was getting matter that Senator Brown has been progress- close to that end of the spectrum as a contri- ing is finalised. bution. Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant Senator Kemp—We are all tired and Treasurer) (5.18 p.m)—Just to see whether we emotional. can speed the journey, could I suggest to you Senator SHERRY—Yes, that is true. But that you may have some written questions costings is a very serious issue and I wonder that you would like to provide so that we can if the minister has thought any more about the perhaps give some fuller answers. That may issue relating to reporting. That would be assist you. providing an annual update about which sectors these philanthropic donations are Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— going to go to—education, health and also, in Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.18 the case of the amendments that we are p.m.)—Of course that would assist me except considering, various donations of land under that, Mr Temporary Chairman, as so often various covenants. That is an important issue happens when we are dealing with such because the costings on this measure under matters, my questions are utterly dependent this legislation are $71 million or $72 on the minister’s answers. But I will do million—that is a fair amount of money—and anything I can to assist the minister—well, it is a broad new principle that the Prime perhaps not to assist the minister but certainly Minister has personally championed and it is to assist the committee—in progressing this important to be able to identify what the matter as quickly as possible. value for money is. Senator Kemp—We would wish to do the So, from a Labor perspective, it is import- same. ant that we are able to see that X amount Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (5.19 goes to education, X amount goes to health, p.m.)—The government has raised issues of X amount might go to land conservation and costing. Given the earlier debate, the one are then able to look at the cost in terms of prior to lunchtime, does the government have expenditures in the budget. That would be any update on possible costings and what it useful for that reason and, secondly, that 11482 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 would be useful from a historical perspective money is going. I also think it would assist in because it would be interesting to just see minimising misuse, evasion or tax how much extra philanthropic activity is minimisation schemes that could possibly encouraged by this legislation. emerge as a consequence of this approach. Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant Again, I wonder if the government has Treasurer) (5.22 p.m.)—In defence of my thought any more about this issue of greater esteemed colleague Senator Campbell, I transparency and access to information. It is thought he was incredibly helpful in the related to the issue of the tax office doing earlier debate. I felt he was almost too help- some sort of examination from its perspective, ful, to be quite frank, but that is the character from a government perspective, of where the of the man. That is the measure of the man— money goes to. We are concerned about this he just wants to assist as much as he can. We issue, and I hope the government is able to understand that. He is young and enthusiastic, respond in more detail than Senator Campbell and why wouldn’t he be? was able to this morning. Senator Sherry—He wants your job too! The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- tor Murphy)—The question is that the Senator KEMP—Lots of people want jobs, Democrat amendments be agreed to. Those of Senator. Can I make the point that I do not that opinion say aye— think we can add any further information. Senator Campbell explained that some private Senator SHERRY—Before we proceed to research may have been going on, but we the vote I would just like to know if Senator have not got any data on it. I do not think the Brown is going to vote for this amendment. income tax returns are a big help in The opposition will be voting for this amend- disaggregating these matters. We understand ment. your interest, but I am not sure that we can Senator Brown—Yes. provide any further assistance over and above the great assistance that Senator Campbell has Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant already provided. Treasurer) (5.27 p.m.)—I do not want to call a division, so could we get a clear under- Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (5.25 standing of who is voting for what: Labor is p.m.)—I do not want to get into an argument voting for the three amendments, so is Sena- about whether or not Senator Campbell was tor Brown, and the Democrats obviously are. helpful. The other issue that I raised this The government ain’t! I make that clear. morning—and I had thought we might get some progress on it—concerns being able to Question resolved in the affirmative. identify where moneys are going at the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—We moment in the form of philanthropic—we now move to Australian Greens amendments have all struggled to get around this word in (1), (6) and (11) on sheet 1668. its various forms—activity. Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.27 p.m.)— Senator McGauran—Phil who? We might deal with the following series of Senator SHERRY—Keep the mind on the amendments too, which are consequential, if job, Senator McGauran. This is an important the committee so desires. question for the opposition. I raised the issue The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—I am of what occurs in the United States. When advised that the others are not amendments organisations receive some sort of philan- and that we have to put them separately. So thropic contribution, the information is readily we will deal with the first ones first. accessible. The organisations that have re- ceived the donations are required by law, as Senator BROWN—by leave—I move I understand it, to provide that detail publicly Australian Greens amendments Nos 1, 6 and if requests are made. I think that is a reason- 11: able approach. It adds to transparency and to (1) Schedule 5, page 22 (after line 8), after item the community’s knowledge of where the 1, insert: Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11483

1A Subsection 30-15(2) (table item 1, column by the Democrats. I am somewhat surprised headed "Type of gift or contribution") that he is going on with them at this stage, Repeal paragraph (b), substitute: given the concerns that he expressed. The (b) property (including *trading stock); or opposition will not be supporting these par- (6) Schedule 5, page 23 (after line 1), after item ticular amendments, given the amendments 5, insert: that were passed earlier. 5A Subsection 30-15(2) (table item 2, column Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant headed "Type of gift or contribution") Treasurer) (5.30 p.m.)—Let me indicate that Repeal paragraph (b), substitute: the government will not be supporting these (b) property (including *trading stock); or amendments. I think this debate has been well (11) Schedule 5, page 24 (after line 3), after item canvassed. 10, insert: Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.31 p.m.)— 10A Subsection 30-15(2) (table item 3, column headed "Type of gift or contribution") I have just done the sums and it does not sound like I am going to get the amendments Repeal paragraph (b), substitute: up, Mr Temporary Chairman. (b) property. Thank you for your advice. These amend- Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— ments are to remove the $5,000 barrier on the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.31 value of gifts whereby, under the legislation, p.m.)—If I can now address the issue that I a gift worth more than $5,000 would be was progressing before, I think it might be deductible but a gift worth less than $5,000 more appropriate to do it here, and I thank would not be deductible. You will remember again the clerks for their advice on this that we had a little debate about that this particular matter. As I understand it, the morning, Mr Temporary Chairman. It is a minister has said that, for the purposes of this very complex matter. act, a charitable trust can receive a tax deductible donation under certain criteria. I As Senator Campbell said, to not have some assume the certain criteria are those that are limit would mean that you could laboriously set out in section 2 on pages 69 and 70 of the get an evaluation on the cast-off shirts that explanatory memorandum. I do not want to you put into the box for St Vinnies and have put words into the minister’s mouth, but I it deducted. Of course, nobody wants that think that was what he indicated previously. burden put on the tax office. There would be I seek confirmation on that. a lot of paperwork, which would become very costly for trivial matters like that. Neverthe- Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant less, I think that $5,000 barrier is too high. I Treasurer) (5.32 p.m.)—It is not just those understand the complexities, and I think these criteria; it is all the criteria in the gift provi- are less important amendments than the next sions. lot coming up and the ones that we have just Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— dealt with. I wish to continue with the amend- Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.32 ments, but I am not going to die in a ditch p.m.)—I thank the minister for that. That is over them. helpful. I was not clear on whether he was Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (5.29 relating this to deductions for gifts to private p.m.)—With respect to the amendments that funds or making this broader. The reason I Senator Brown has moved, my understanding raise the question, Minister, is that the notori- is that they cover a similar and wider ambit ous Greenfields Foundation has been de- to the amendments that we have just passed. scribed as a charitable trust by one of the Therefore, given what has passed, the Labor trustees, Mr Bandle. In fact, in a leading opposition will not be supporting these Australian newspaper on 23 July 1998, he amendments. I am a little surprised that said: Senator Brown is continuing with them, given We are set up as a charitable trust and we have the concerns he expressed when we debated written cheques of approximately $80,000 to the last set of amendments that were moved charities so far. 11484 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Here we have what is effectively a fundrais- particular amendments and this matter can be ing arm of the Liberal Party that has estab- further followed while the minister is getting lished itself as a charitable trust. Obviously, advice. as far as the opposition is concerned, this has Senator FAULKNER—You know how some great relevance to section 2. Could I ask cooperative the opposition is, Mr Temporary the minister in relation to section 2, paragraph Chairman. If that would assist the committee, 5.29 of the explanatory memorandum— that is fine. Senator Kemp—Would you mind going Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant back a couple of steps. I was talking to my Treasurer) (5.36 p.m.)—When Senator advisers. Faulkner speaks in these low, hushed and Senator FAULKNER—I was drawing your sincere tones in the chamber, we always know attention to paragraph 5.29 on page 69 of the that there will be some attack coming. Of explanatory memorandum which talks about course, he has launched an attack, as he prescribed private funds. It says: always does. I am not an expert on the Prescribed private fund is defined in subsection Greenfields Foundation. I have no particular 995-1(1) to be a fund that is prescribed by the knowledge of this body, nor of its legal Income Tax Assessment Regulations but does not structure. I know that it obsesses you, but it include a fund that is declared in writing by the Treasurer not to be a prescribed fund. does not obsess me. I am not sure if my advisers have any particular knowledge on it. To get some clarity in relation to the Income I think you can stand up and make allega- Tax Assessment Regulations: are they regula- tions, because you are fairly good at that. You tions that will be made by you, as the Assist- always come in the chamber and make allega- ant Treasurer, or will they be made by the tions, not in the sense of ever proving any- Treasurer? thing of substance but certainly in making Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant attacks and smears. You are probably the Treasurer) (5.35 p.m.)—Either could do it. It world champion in the chamber at that. That could be signed by the Treasurer or me. I do is the truth. I just would not like, because we not want to race ahead, but Senator Faulkner pass through matters, to leave these things on has stood up and made some comments and the record. I am seeking some further advice on them. As The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- far as the regulations are concerned, they can tor Murphy)—Order! The question before be signed by either the Treasurer or me. the chair is the amendments moved by Sena- Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— tor Brown. Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.35 p.m.)—I assume from the minister’s comment Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— that he wants to provide some more informa- Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.37 tion before we move on because he said that p.m.)—That was a most unfortunate contribu- he is seeking some further advice which I am tion from Senator Kemp, wasn’t it, Mr Tem- happy to await. porary Chairman! That he should respond in that way to some serious questions being Senator Kemp—That advice is being raised by a senator in the chamber! provided. We could move on if there were some other matters that you wish to raise. Senator Sherry interjecting— Senator FAULKNER—Could you let us Senator FAULKNER—I was disappointed, know what the advice is? Senator Sherry, to see that he responded in Senator Kemp—As soon as I get it, I will the way he did—not surprised, but disappoint- give it to you. ed. This is a very important issue, given that the minister has now indicated that the mak- Senator FAULKNER—So you haven’t ing of these regulations is a matter for either received it? the Treasurer or the Assistant Treasurer, and The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- given that we have a situation where the tor Murphy)—We can proceed with these trustees of the Greenfields Foundation have Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11485 made absolutely clear in their public com- allegations. The minister does not understand ments that the Greenfields Foundation was set that there are no allegations being made, but up as a charitable trust and also that the because of the reprehensible behaviour that Greenfields Foundation has written cheques, the Liberal Party and the Greenfields Founda- at least to the value of $80,000, to charities. tion have entered into over a number of years, I want to be absolutely assured that the I want some assurances from this minister in Greenfields Foundation will not be a pre- the chamber today as we debate this bill. If scribed fund for the purposes of the act. In the minister is willing to give those categori- other words, I want to be absolutely assured cal assurances, I have indicated that the that we do not have donations or gifts provid- matter is finished. ed to the Greenfields Foundation, which is a Perhaps the Treasurer could write a letter charitable trust, whereby those donors receive and make this absolutely clear. I think very a tax deductibility for those donations and many Australians would be concerned if today whereby at some time those donations, which we find that we are dealing with important are not disclosed, go to the benefit of the legislation in Taxation Laws Amendment Bill Liberal Party. That is my concern. It is my (No. 8) 1999 which leaves another loophole only concern. Senator Kemp, if you can give through which the Liberal Party or the this assurance in the Senate now, the issue is Greenfields Foundation—for that matter, over as far as I am concerned. I seek a cate- perhaps any political party—could do this. gorical commitment from you, on behalf of Unfortunately it is the Liberal Party that has the government, that the Greenfields Founda- the form on this. It is the Liberal Party that tion will not be a prescribed private fund for has used a vehicle known as the Greenfields the purposes of this act. Foundation. Wouldn’t it be a most appalling Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant development in Australian public life if, in the Treasurer) (5.40 p.m.)—I do not know the name of philanthropy, the Liberal Party facts about this particular body; I am not sure exploited this provision? All I want is to be you know the facts about this particular body. assured that that is not going to happen. You have a high degree of spleen, and we If you can give that assurance now, Senator understand that. Kemp, as the responsible minister at the table The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- in this debate, the matter is finished. That is tor Murphy)—Order! all I want—an assurance that we are not Senator KEMP—I am not in a position to going to have the Greenfields Foundation, provide advice about this particular body to which is a charitable trust, exploit the provi- the chamber. It would be quite improper of sions in the bill in the way that I have out- me. You have made some allegations. I do lined. It is very possible, because you have not know the current legal status of the fund. said that a charitable trust can receive a tax It may be what some people describe as an deductible donation. That is what you indicat- ancillary fund. For gifts to be tax deductible, ed clearly to the chamber. You have told us an ancillary fund must disburse funds to an that; I accept that. entity that in itself is a tax deductible entity. We also know that the Greenfields Founda- As I have no particular knowledge of this tion is a charitable trust, and I want to be body, and my advisers have no particular assured that, under the terms of this legisla- knowledge of this body—it does not obsess tion, the Greenfields Foundation will not be us the way it obsesses you—I am not able to a prescribed fund for the purposes of this act. provide any particular comments on it. The reason I want to be assured is that I do Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— not want individuals or corporations donating Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.41 money or gifts to the Greenfields Foundation p.m.)—I am afraid that that is simply not and receiving tax deductibility for that, and good enough, Minister. The Greenfields for this to be effectively a money laundering Foundation describe themselves as a charit- exercise for the Liberal Party. This would able trust. I am not actually making any mean that not only would these entities not be 11486 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 disclosed—which of course is the intention from you in the past, I can say that it would and purpose for the establishment of the be a very brave minister who would take Greenfields Foundation in the first instance— anything you say on face value without doing although they should be if you are interested a lot of careful checking; and that is exactly in defending the integrity of the Electoral Act what I would always do with anything you and of the electoral law in this country, but said. But the advice I have is that a trust that also the donors would receive tax deducti- donates to a political body is currently limited bility. to $100. That is under the current law. That This is an important issue and I hope that is the advice I have got. other senators in the chamber share my Senator Faulkner interjecting— concerns. I know that in the past Senator Bartlett, on behalf of the Australian Demo- Senator KEMP—Yes, but the huge scen- crats, and Senator Brown have shared the ario you have concocted is that people will be concerns that have been expressed by the receiving considerable tax deductions and that opposition. All you have to do is give us an this particular body can then make large assurance, Senator Kemp. That is all I want: donations to the Liberal Party. I am just an assurance. If you cannot give it, then I pointing out to you that the advice I have want you to get the assurance from the Treas- from my advisers is that such a donation urer, Mr Costello. If we receive that assur- would be limited to $100. ance, I think that will put many minds in the Senator Sherry—What about loans? community at rest. Senator KEMP—Senator, you want to Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant waste the Senate’s time. Senator Faulkner, Treasurer) (5.46 p.m.)—This is a fantastic you have this obsession because you think proposition. I am being asked to stand up in that we are like you. We are not; we are quite this chamber and make comments about an different. We actually act in an ethical fash- organisation of which I have no knowledge ion. and of which my advisers have no particular knowledge. It would be a very unusual thing With this whole scenario that you have for a person to be able stand up and say, built—all these questions and all these points regarding this particular object of spleen by of attack on the Greenfields Foundation—a Senator Faulkner, that we can give detailed trust is limited to a donation to a political advice. The measures we are considering are party of $100. That is an exciting scenario, important measures. This is an excellent bill. and that is the advice I have from my tax experts. I have always said that the Labor Party judges the Liberal Party by the Labor Party’s Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— own standards. Therefore, people like Senator Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.50 Faulkner go around seeing great plots and p.m.)—Let us be charitable. Let us assume conspiracies—which certainly exist in his own that Senator Kemp—because of incompetence, party, particularly in the New South Wales not deliberately—fails to understand the division, which has a singularly unlovely significance of this issue. I am actually not record—and immediately attribute ill motives making any allegations here. All I want is a to the coalition. We just do not accept that, commitment from Senator Kemp, and if I Senator. We do not behave like you do. We receive the commitment we can close the are a party that does not go around behaving book. But, you see, in the Financial Review in the fashion which you constantly try to of 23 July 1998 Mr Bandle, one of the portray. We are not the Labor Party. Greenfields Foundation trustees, said: You have concocted all of this, and I do not We are set up as a charitable trust and we have even know whether this body is a charitable written cheques of approximately $80,000 to trust or not. It would be a very brave minister charities so far. who would take your word on these things. They have been described as a self-confessed Having experienced many selective quotes charitable organisation for some time. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11487

What I am interested in progressing is the the purpose of providing money, property or question of donations to the Greenfields benefits to a fund, authority or institution covered Foundation itself. It is the minister who said by Subdivision 30-B; that a charitable trust like the Greenfields This goes to the nub. If a political party is a Foundation can receive a tax deductible body, how much money can be given to such donation or gift. It is the minister who said a body? The advice that I have been given is that to the committee. I am not making this that it is limited to $100—and this is causing up. If he is wrong, just correct the record and such huge angst for you, Senator Faulkner. If that is fine; we will get on with it. Let me you have alternative advice, let’s share it. read again what 5.29 says in the explanatory Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (5.55 memorandum: p.m.)—I do not want to take up a lot of time, Prescribed private fund is defined in subsection as I would like to at least progress through 995-1(1) to be a fund that is prescribed by the this legislation today, but I thought it might Income Tax Assessment Regulations but does not assist perhaps both sides of this if I made a include a fund that is declared in writing by the brief contribution to try to avoid us getting Treasurer not to be a prescribed fund. into an escalating war between the two large That is all Mr Costello has to do, and per- parties in this place about who is the most haps, if he would leave such an important unethical in their behaviour in fundraising, et task to Senator Kemp, Senator Kemp would cetera and get back to the question that is have to do it on his behalf. It says: being raised, which I think is a reasonable . . . does not include a fund that is declared in one for Senator Faulkner to raise. As I see it, writing by the Treasurer not to be a prescribed the issue is not so much about how much tax fund. deductibility a particular foundation might be If the commitment is given that the Treasurer able to get if they give money to a political will make this matter clear, that is all the party but that people who give money to that committee needs to hear. That is the assur- foundation may be able to claim substantial ance that I want—either a categorical assur- tax deductions. ance from the minister in the terms that I Perhaps we could move away from the have asked for it previously or an assurance Greenfields Foundation and Senator Kemp that such a document in writing will be could think of it in the context of perhaps the forthcoming from the Treasurer in relation to Labor Party being back in office and having the Greenfields Foundation. If that is received the ‘Redfields Foundation’ established and or that assurance is given, then I am sure the using it in ways that he might be concerned committee will be satisfied, at least on this about. If that foundation is able to be a point. prescribed foundation and receive donations Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant of property or whatever from the public, then Treasurer) (5.53 p.m.)—Senator Faulkner, I those people who give those donations will be do not wish you to keep on perhaps giving a able to claim tax deductions for it. If I under- misleading approach to the Senate. I said a stand it correctly, that seems to be the con- charitable trust which satisfies the gift provi- cern that Senator Faulkner is raising. The sions. I think that is somewhat distinct from concern is that this may provide—forget the comments you made to the committee. Let about the Greenfields Foundation—a founda- me just quote from the EM. It says on page tion that is deliberately set up as a front to 69: channel donations to any political party, if they can be prescribed as a private fund under Schedule 5 to this Bill amends section 30-15 of the regulations, a publicly subsidised opportunity ITAA 1997 to allow deductions for gifts made to specified private funds from 1 July 1999. This is for increased donations to that foundation. achieved by extending the application of item 2 in Senator Faulkner—And the donations the table to prescribed private funds [items 6 and aren’t disclosed either, Senator. 26]. Item 2 of the table deals with gifts to public funds established and maintained under a will or Senator BARTLETT—There are flow-on trust...for: problems of non-disclosure or adequate 11488 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 disclosure of donations, but that is perhaps a So do not start talking about $100 donations matter for electoral law. What I would be or any other form of donation. The interested in the minister addressing is wheth- Greenfields Foundation claims—take my word er or not any foundation that achieves the for it—let me quote again: status of ‘prescribed private fund’ can then The Foundation has not and cannot make payments operate in that way. to political parties—this is prohibited by its deed. Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant Treasurer) (5.58 p.m.)—It has to disburse its Those are their words. I will be seeking leave funds to organisations listed in 30-B. to table that in a moment. Recently the Greenfields Foundation—on its letterhead, C/- Senator Faulkner—How? Post Office Box 52, Deakin West, ACT— Senator KEMP—In order to retain its under the signature of Mr Anthony J. Bandle status it has to distribute funds to organisa- for the trustees, wrote another letter to the tions listed in 30-B. My advice is that politi- Australian Electoral Commissioner. They are cal parties are listed in 30-B but the maxi- getting into deeper water here all the time. mum deduction is $100. If your advice is Senator Kemp might not know that but I think different to that, Senator Faulkner, you should a lot of other Australians do. They wrote this stand up and say that the advice that you have letter to the Electoral Commissioner, and one is different. If your advice is the same, your of the paragraphs said: whole argument is seen to be a nonsense. What we need you to do is provide your Your letter appears to assume— advice. That is the advice that I am receiving this is from the Greenfields Foundation to the from the tax office. It is not a matter of Australian Electoral Commissioner, ‘your setting up fronts or anything else; it is a letter’ being the Electoral Commissioner’s— matter of being an organisation listed under 30-B. That lists a whole host of organisations that the obligations of associated entities extend to the Trustees of the Foundation. However, that and there are particular criteria applied, and assumption is based on a misconception as to the to political parties it is $100. If Senator purposes of the Foundation. The Foundation is a Faulkner thinks that is not correct, I think he Trust Fund, established for charitable purposes, should stand up and say it. That is the advice administered by the Trustees. that I am getting from my people. That is what they claim to be—a charitable Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— trust: ‘A trust fund established for charitable Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.59 purposes administered by the trustees.’ These p.m.)—The best thing I can do to try to assist are not my words; these are the words of Mr the Assistant Treasurer, who desperately Bandle for the trustees. So what we are needs it, is to seek leave in a moment to table dealing with here, to try to explain this to a couple of documents that might assist him. you, Senator Kemp, is a foundation called the The first one comes under the letterhead of Greenfields Foundation which, to get around the Greenfields Foundation. It is signed for the disclosure provisions in the Electoral Act, the trustees by Mr Tony Bandle. has loaned to the Liberal Party on the most Senator Kemp—Are you going to deal generous of commercial arrangements a very with this bill and the $100 issue? large amount of money. It has also donated to Senator FAULKNER—I have dealt with charities a very small amount of money. So that a number of times, and I will come back it is not making direct donations—as you and to it to try to explain it to you. I would understand the dictionary definition of ‘donations’—it is loaning massive amounts Senator Kemp—You have not dealt with of money to the Liberal Party. That is the it; you have not dealt with it once. way it tried to get around the disclosure Senator FAULKNER—Let me just quote provisions of the act. That is why what you one sentence: are saying is a total and absolute nonsense. The Foundation has not and cannot make payments Perhaps you might now understand that to political parties—this is prohibited by its deed. particular point. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11489

But let us go on. What I am concerned Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant about is the capacity for either a private indi- Treasurer) (6.07 p.m.)—We have just had vidual or a corporation to provide a donation another pathetic rant from the discredited or a gift to the Greenfields Foundation and for Leader of the Opposition in the Senate. that organisation or private individual to be Senator Faulkner reflected, I regret to say, on able to benefit under these provisions as a my intelligence. This is the former environ- prescribed private fund not only to cover up ment minister who single-handedly lost the the fact that it has made the donation but to environment vote in 1996—and I say this actually receive tax deductibility for the dona- advisedly because there are people in the tion. That is the issue. The more I hear Sena- chamber who would know that what I say is tor Kemp respond, the more I become worried correct. Senator Faulkner was such a political that there is something here to cover up. First genius that, as the Labor environment of all, what I came in here to do, you would minister, he single-handedly lost the environ- be interested to know, Mr Temporary Chair- ment vote. There is no other environment man, was to get an assurance from this minis- minister, I believe, who can claim such a ter. But, of course, it has not been forthcom- record. This is the person who reflects on the ing. It is hard to believe the minister could be intelligence of others. It is an extraordinary as dopey as he is, trying to pretend to the story. One of his responsibilities as a minister committee that he does not understand either was the forest debate. You would remember the bill that he is responsible for shepherding the farce in this chamber— through the committee today or the electoral The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- law in this country. tor Lightfoot)—Order, Minister. What you are saying is not really relevant. That is the issue. It is on that issue that I Senator KEMP—I will just make the point want to receive a commitment from the that he did such a terrific job on forests that minister at the table because the Greenfields he was removed by the Prime Minister. He Foundation says it is a charitable trust, and was not to deal with forests. that means—and the minister made it abso- lutely clear—that it can receive tax deductible Senator Sherry—On a point of order, Mr donations. All I want to do is ensure that the Temporary Chairman: you did point out to Treasurer, who can quite clearly declare in Senator Kemp that his comments about writing the Greenfields Foundation not to be forestry were not relevant. Clearly, they are a prescribed fund for the purposes of the act, not and you were spot on. Then he continued will do so. All I want to hear is that the to wilfully ignore your ruling. Treasurer will do so, so that we do not have The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— a further effort from the Liberal Party of Senator Sherry, you should not make a state- Australia or any of these shonky, dodgy front ment. Do you have a point of order? organisations, like the Greenfields Foundation, Senator Sherry—The point of order is to subvert the disclosure provisions of the relevance. Electoral Act. It is easily done. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—You do have a point of order. The Treasurer can declare in writing in relation to the Greenfields Foundation that it Senator Sherry—The minister should get is not to be a prescribed fund. That is all that back to the issue and stop wasting time. has to happen. If the minister at the table will Senator KEMP—We are seeing another give that commitment and if we see that from massive waste of time, and I hope that tomor- Treasurer, it will certainly satisfy me. And row in the debate we will not get the Labor from the spirit of what I heard from Senator Party talking about how restricted the debat- Bartlett, who is engaged in the debate, I ing time is for all these bills, because you assume it would satisfy him also, who nods. have wasted most of the afternoon. This has That is all you have to do, Minister. If you been another big Labor effort to waste most can do that, we can get on with it. of the afternoon by a failed minister who was 11490 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 removed from a central part of his job by Mr regulation. Can we have clarification from the Keating. For a minister who single-handedly minister: will the regulation name individual lost the environment vote to stand up and private prescribed funds or will it have cate- reflect on others is quite appalling, in my gories of private prescribed funds? Could you view. I do not accept that at all. provide that information for us? I have received some very marginally Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant revised advice from my advisers that in fact Treasurer) (6.13 p.m.)—I have checked with political parties are not subdivision 30-B my advisers. The Hansard will show whether funds. A private fund could not even donate you mentioned that they will require regula- $100. I hope that clarifies the record. My tion. I don’t think people can remember it on understanding is that, in relation to any this side. You may have said it; you may not prescribed agency, this will require a regula- have said it. We will all check the Hansard tion which is tabled in this parliament and to see whether this is another effort by Sena- subject to disallowance by this chamber. We tor Faulkner to mislead the Senate—it may have had this huge rant and rave and the not be. I am a reasonable man. He has had usual effort by Senator Faulkner to slander such a record of misleading the chamber that people. He is truly the limbo champion of the nothing would surprise me. I am seeking Senate: no-one can go lower than Senator some advice on the matters raised. Faulkner, in my view. Let us construct this Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (6.14 huge hypothesis that Senator Faulkner has p.m.)—Don’t you recall John asking you marched into the chamber and said that this whether the Treasurer was— is so critically important we have to delay the committee for an hour. Will you provide, in The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Refer writing, information about an agency of which to Senator Faulkner by his correct name I have no particular knowledge and nor do my please, Senator Sherry, if you are going to advisers? The central fact which Senator object. Are you taking a point of order, Faulkner did not understand was that for the Senator Sherry? Greenfields Foundation or for any other body Senator SHERRY—No, I am not taking a to become a prescribed agency will require a point of order. I am asking a question. But I regulation and this can be disallowed by the will not question him further, because he will Senate. get distracted. We have wasted the time of this chamber. Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant No-one—and above all you, Senator Treasurer) (6.14 p.m.)—My understanding Faulkner—when we are rushing to get and advice is that the intention is that they through bills tomorrow should dare to com- would be individually done. plain about delays in this chamber. You have wasted an afternoon. Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (6.14 Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— p.m.)—I thank the minister for providing that Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (6.12 advice and the advisers for informing the p.m.)—Finally, the minister has caught up minister what the process would be. Does this with the play and understands that this re- mean that there will be—I expect this to be quires a regulation. He is right about that. Of the case—a range of prescribed private funds course, I told him that about 40 minutes ago. all contained in the one regulation, or would I thank the advisers for their tolerance. We all there be separate regulations in relation to have difficult jobs but, my God, you have prescribed private funds? I can see a way really got a difficult job! around this. If the minister is willing to give Senator Kemp—No-one more than you! this commitment, again, we can move on. Senator FAULKNER—I think we all Is the minister willing to give a commit- know what we are dealing with, Senator ment to the Senate here that the Greenfields Kemp. The minister has now caught up with Foundation, if it is to be a prescribed private the play and understands that this requires a fund, will be regulated for separately out of Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11491 a category of other prescribed private funds? tax deductible donation. In order to assist, I I assume that there would be one regulation; seek leave to table a letter from the that is why I ask the question. Is there to be Greenfields Foundation. a separate regulation in relation to the Leave not granted. Greenfields Foundation? If that is dealt with separately, it obviously gives the Senate the Senator FAULKNER—This minister capacity to disallow such a regulation without appears to be either unwilling or unable to affecting other prescribed private funds. assist the committee make some progress in this matter. The minister does not want a Is the minister willing to give that assurance letter tabled for his benefit which goes to the now? I do not know what the Treasurer point that I have been outlining about the intends to do in relation to the Greenfields Greenfields Foundation’s description of its Foundation. That is the point I have been own activities. These are not my words about trying to make now for quite some time; it the Greenfields Foundation; these are its own appears to have fallen on deaf ears. Can the words. I quote from this letter directly: minister assure the Senate that a separate regulation will be brought down for the The foundation is a trust fund established for Greenfields Foundation? Is there to be such charitable purposes administered by the trustees. a regulation for the Greenfields Foundation? That is what the trustees themselves say on In other words, is the Greenfields Foundation their own letterhead in a letter dated 15 to be prescribed by the income tax assessment January 1998 and sent to the Electoral Com- regulations? missioner. If it is a separate regulation, that gives the That has been reinforced in a range of other Senate the capacity to deal with it. Obviously publicly available documents by the trustees Senator Bartlett and perhaps Senator Brown of the foundation. It has also been a matter might have a view on this. That seems to me about which the trustees have speculated to be a sensible way of proceeding in the publicly. One trustee, Mr Bandle, is quoted as circumstances. If the minister is willing to saying that the Greenfields Foundation is set give that assurance, we can move on. Again, up as a charitable trust. That is one reason one tries to find ways to assist the minister why this organisation has raised so many and the government in this. That is probably concerns in the public arena. the best I can do. We know that the Greenfields Foundation Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant is a charitable trust; it says so itself. We know Treasurer) (6.17 p.m.)—That is the best that that there is now a capacity, if this bill is Senator Faulkner can do by trying so hard. passed unamended, for a prescribed private Let us summarise where the debate is at. A fund to be prescribed by the income tax regulation is required. The regulation is assessment regulations. This will mean that disallowable by the Senate. I am not in a there will be tax deductibility for donations position to describe how the regulations will and gifts for such organisations. I am con- be brought in. I am also not prepared to cerned about that. It offends a number of very discuss a particular fund. I know nothing important principles that I think are matters of about this fund. I also do not accept the great concern for the chamber. innuendo with which Senator Faulkner so I have sought a categorical commitment freely and fulsomely litters his arguments. If from the minister to try and get over this the Senate does not like a prescribed agency, problem. I have sought a categorical commit- it has the capacity to disallow the regulation. ment from the minister that the Greenfields Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— Foundation will not be a prescribed fund for Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (6.18 the purposes of this act. I have sought confir- p.m.)—That is a very disappointing response mation from the minister in those terms—he from the minister. I will try to explain the would not give it. I have tried to seek confir- situation that we face here. The minister has mation from the minister, given that we are indicated that a charitable trust can receive a aware that either the Treasurer or the Assist- 11492 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 ant Treasurer would have to regulate. I asked Senator Faulkner has already wasted most of him a question about that, though he claims the afternoon building this enormous construct I did not raise the issue of regulation. I asked over some particular angst he has with regard him who would regulate and he indicated to to a particular body. The comments he made us that either the Treasurer or the Assistant were, as usual, laced with errors, as we have Treasurer would make the regulations in this come to expect with Senator Faulkner. We all regard. He has forgotten that, but that is all know that his political judgment, when it right. We know he is a bit off the ball on comes to the count, has always been rather some of this stuff. poor. That is the reason he is in opposition. We also know that the Treasurer can de- That is the reason key responsibilities were clare in writing that a fund like the removed from him when he was environment Greenfields Foundation not be a prescribed minister. That is the reason he lost the envi- fund for the purposes of the act. If we got ronment vote. The truth of that matter is that that commitment, we could move on. The this guy has got form. Assistant Treasurer would not give that Let me get a couple of things on the record commitment. We made it clear to the Assist- so that Senator Faulkner and maybe his ant Treasurer, eventually, after some time advisers can be assisted. The mere fact that a behind the play on the bill—and I think it trust calls itself a charitable trust means was understood—that the prescribed funds, nothing in terms of whether gifts to the trust the charitable trusts in this instance, would be are tax deductible. It must satisfy the gift identified by name in a regulation. I suggested provisions in division 30. I understand that we have a separate regulation for the Senator Faulkner, having wasted our after- Greenfields Foundation so that if it was noon, has decided to walk out of the chamber. regulated under the Income Tax Assessment Why wouldn’t he? Tomorrow he has to build Act regulations, then that could be disallowed the argument that somehow we have not got by the Senate. Again, it was just another way time to consider the legislation which is of moving on. coming through. How many times do you have to offer the He has wasted this whole afternoon on a Assistant Treasurer a bit of help? How can total nonsense about a particular body which you help someone who appears unable to help may well call itself a charitable trust. Just to himself? These offers have been made. The repeat myself: a body calling itself a charit- Assistant Treasurer, on behalf of the govern- able trust means nothing in terms of whether ment, is willing to accept none of them. It is the gifts to the trust are tax deductible. I very difficult to come to any other conclusion know nothing about this particular body. I than that the government’s intention is to try have no information on it. We have had a and shonk its way through in relation to the total waste of time this afternoon. If Senator Greenfields Foundation and to allow a vehicle Faulkner was so worried about it, the truth is for either private individuals or major corpo- that to determine a prescribed agency requires rations or companies to provide donations to a regulation to be brought in, and a regulation a shonky organisation like the Greenfields can be disallowed. Foundation. The donors themselves receive We have wasted all of this afternoon. Let tax deductibility and, of course, there is no us say that the paranoia of Senator Faulkner public transparency in this. There is no has some particular merit in the sense that disclosure of those donations and the donors perhaps someone will try to prescribe an get tax deductibility. That is not good enough. agency which he does not like. The facts of No-one who would defend the integrity of the matter are that it comes before this cham- either our electoral laws or our tax laws could ber in a regulation and it can be disallowed. accept such a situation. That is what we had all of this big debate Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant about this afternoon. We had time wasting Treasurer) (6.25 p.m.)—I do not want to and an attempt to table documents. It was a detain this stage of the committee any longer. total construct and a total farce. It shows you Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11493 why the Labor Party is so hopeless. It is so tion. The minister has claimed he knows hopeless that rather than Senator Faulkner nothing about the Greenfields-type operation. getting down to do some decent policy work, I accept that at face value. He claims his the man cannot climb out of the gutter. That advisers know nothing about the Greenfields- is the problem. The man cannot rise from the type operation. If they do not know anything gutter. We have just seen another example of about it—and I accept that at face value—go the way Senator Faulkner goes on in this away and find out. We will have time to deal chamber. with this issue; we are not going to conclude Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (6.29 it tonight, that is obvious, because you cannot p.m.)—There are a couple of points that give us the assurances we require— should be made about Senator Kemp’s contri- Senator Kemp—Just wasting time. bution. It was the opposition’s hope that we Senator SHERRY—We need to know that could have finished this legislation some time this legislation is not going to be misused, ago. Senator Faulkner, my colleague and and you have failed to give us those assuran- leader, raised a legitimate concern about the ces. possible misuse to which this particular piece On the issue of regulation, the Labor Party of legislation can be put. is not going to be placed in a position where It is not just a concern about Greenfields, we have a list of organisations that are subject it is a concern about any political party that to disallowance with us having to disallow all could set up an organisation like Greenfields of them in order to disallow one. That would and then use the provisions of the act. It is obviously place us in an invidious position— not a matter of Greenfields or any organisa- and why should we be placed in that posi- tion like Greenfields simply making donations tion? We want the Senate to have the capacity to a political party. The matter is—and in the to disallow one of the organisations if we case of Greenfields we know that loans were believe that it does not fit the stated aims and made—that we do not believe that these sorts intentions of encouraging philanthropy. This of contrived arrangements are appropriate, and is a very important issue. it is not appropriate that they are being I would suggest that the minister, the rewarded as a result of this piece of legisla- advisers and the Treasurer turn their attention tion, which is purportedly to encourage to this matter overnight so that it can be philanthropy. That is one of the points that resolved, because we do not want to hold up Senator Faulkner was making. I do not be- the committee stage. But this is a concern we lieve Senator Kemp knows anything about have that the minister has failed to satisfy us Greenfields or Greenfields-type operations. I on. We should not be seeing, in the guise of accept his word at face value on that. philanthropy, fancy ways of obtaining signifi- Senator Kemp—You are just wasting time. cant deductions at public expense in order to The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- pass it through to political parties. That is not tor Lightfoot)—Senator Kemp, you know the intention of this legislation. I am confident you should not interject except from your that we can come up with a solution to this chair. particular problem. Perhaps the Assistant Treasurer could have suggested we adjourn Senator SHERRY—Here is the minister, our consideration of these particular amend- arrogantly making contributions while he is ments, and we might have been able to work walking across the chamber—totally disorder- out some solution to the logjam that we are ly. Minister, we want— now faced with. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—Please In concluding, Senator Faulkner was not direct your comments to the chair. raising allegations. He was drawing to the Senator SHERRY—Mr Temporary Chair- attention of the Senate and the government a man, we want assurances from the minister legitimate concern about what is clearly now and the government that this sort of operation a subterfuge—a contrived entity to avoid the cannot occur within the ambit of this legisla- electoral laws by Greenfields. Senator Kemp 11494 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 might not want to recognise that this has would want, with his stated goal of encourag- occurred, but it has occurred—the Australian ing greater philanthropy, is this bill and the Electoral Office has investigated the matter outcome of this bill getting caught up in some and has said that it has occurred. We are not sort of controversy over political donations. making allegations about members of the I really cannot understand why, if the minister Liberal Party or of this legislation being used cannot give us the assurances, we could not to subvert the electoral law, but we want have moved on. He could have obtained some assurances that this cannot happen. advice and we could have resolved this Our reading of the legislation, as it is behind the scenes and not wasted a great deal presented to the Senate, is that there is a of time, instead using the time more effective- significant possibility that a subterfuge can be ly and efficiently in dealing with other provi- entered into with respect to Greenfields-type sions of this bill or other pieces of legislation. organisations. Labor believes that no political I believe that our concerns should be satisfied. party—the Liberal Party, the Labor Party, the They have not been satisfied to date, for the Democrats, the Greens—should be able to reasons that Senator Faulkner and I have enter into those sorts of contrived arrange- briefly outlined. These concerns should be ments in the name of philanthropy. This satisfied. legislation is all about encouraging philan- Senator QUIRKE (South Australia) (6.38 thropy in areas such as health, education and, p.m.)—Mr Temporary Chairman— with the passing of the earlier amendments in Senator Kemp—What a waste of time. respect of encouraging environmental protec- tion through various mechanisms, environ- Senator QUIRKE—Well may you laugh, mental protection for land in this country. Minister. I think it should be said here quite That is what philanthropy is about. clearly at the outset that what is emerging in this debate is something of considerable It seems to me that, if the government is importance. fair dinkum about its approach, it would be Senator Kemp—The amendment is not very happy to give us the assurances we have ready. You are wasting time. been seeking and to agree, if it cannot give the assurances, to get the appropriate advice Senator QUIRKE—You say it is a waste and to agree to an amendment to assure us of time. Let me tell you that there has been a that the type of scenario that Senator Faulkner lot of wasted time around this place, a lot of has outlined cannot occur. I am sure that it over the Greenfields federation or whatever Senator Kemp’s approach and that of the it is called, that has filled your coffers with advisers with him is that they do not intend money and got your people elected to this operations like Greenfields to come within the place. You have gone in there and you have ambit of this legislation. I am not so sure taken money in some of the worst rorts that about some of the other people in the Liberal this place has seen, and you have resisted Party hierarchy. But this is our major concern. every effort to clean them up. What is hap- It is an issue that has come to light in the pening now is that this is being exposed. We course of this debate, and these matters will process this either when we get answers should be addressed. This is what the Senate to our questions or when this bill is amended is for; it is for looking at these sorts of issues in such a way that we will not have to deal and dealing with them. with it. As I say, it is regrettable that the minister Senator Kemp—Look serious. has not been able to satisfy our concerns Senator QUIRKE—I am very serious, about what is a very fundamental issue: because in fact what happened with that attempts to circumvent the electoral laws of whole Greenfields rort that you people over this country. It is perfectly legitimate and I there were so fond of was that millions of believe in the public interest for Senator dollars went into the coffers of the coalition Faulkner to be raising concerns of this type. and that money was used for electoral pur- The last thing I think the Prime Minister poses. It was an utter disgrace the way that Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11495 got around the electoral laws in this country. Senator SHERRY—Exactly. That is the This afternoon we are seeing in this bill the point I was going to go on to make. While provision for the same stuff all over again. Senator Kemp has been parading around the When we are assured, when we have answers chamber making various accusations, I under- to our questions or when this is suitably stand there is some arrangement being worked amended so that we do not see these sorts of out that will enable us to try and deal con- provisions again, we will proceed with it. But structively with other business whilst this we are not going to see this go through so matter can be examined more fully. that more Greenfields foundations can mush- Senator Quirke—Like superannuation. room up around the countryside and can launder money for the coalition. In this Senator SHERRY—That is right. chamber we have repeatedly tried to do The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- something about that. tor Lightfoot)—Superannuation is not the The fact of the matter is that the electoral business before the chair at the moment. laws have not, as I understand it, totally Senator SHERRY—That is right, and I closed up that loophole, and what we are hope we can move on to it shortly. But it is likely to see here is a loophole so big that one an indication of the difficulties the govern- of Senator Ian Macdonald’s large trucks can ment program has encountered when we could go through it. We want to make sure that is have finished that bill this morning but could not going to happen. So, Minister, what we not go on, regrettably, because Senator Kemp would like from you is a categorical assurance had to pull the legislation off. But I do under- here, not ‘We don’t know’ or ‘We don’t stand that the Manager of Government Busi- understand where this is going’ or ‘We will ness, Senator Ian Campbell, is dealing with give you an answer in the fullness of time’. the matter. I hope he is dealing with it effec- There are enough advisers over there who tively so that we can positively use our time ought to be up to looking at this matter. Or over the next half an hour or so, whatever the you can do what happened earlier today. As parliamentary secretary as Manager of I understand it, all of a sudden the superan- Government Business has in mind. Certainly nuation bill just disappeared out of here; it the Labor Party is willing and happy to go on just went. All of a sudden we were on other to other business and squeeze a little more legislation because the government wanted to time out of the evening to deal with other sort something out. Well, you can do exactly legislation, if that is the intention of the the same on this. Through you, Mr Temporary Manager of Government Business. Chairman: we make it crystal clear to the What has occurred is unfortunate. We have government that we want answers to this. endeavoured to be as cooperative as we can Either that or we will try and see that this is in dealing with matters as expeditiously as we amended to make it a decent and workable can. Unfortunately, we could not get clear, proposition. Minister, instead of your walking precise, concrete assurances from the minister around the place like a cat on a hot tin roof, and apparently from his advisers. That is we would like some answers. regrettable, but I am sure we can deal posi- Senator Kemp—Update: the amendment tively with some elements of legislation has been withdrawn. remaining in the time available tonight to Senator QUIRKE—Minister, I will give maximise utilisation. I do understand that you the opportunity to tell the Senate that there are some procedural matters to deal with now. so I will sit down at this point in order that they can be progressed. Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (6.42 Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant p.m.)—I understand that there is some Treasurer) (6.45 p.m.)—Thank you, Senator commonsense emerging— Sherry. There is a great deal of activity going Senator Faulkner—Except with Senator on in the chamber. We appreciate the fact you Kemp. had to waste some more time so that the 11496 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 amendment could be drafted. We understand Senator Bartlett, your voice was a little bit that but I do not think we should go through quiet but I assume that you have withdrawn this charade and pretend that there is some your second reading amendment. deeper purpose to this. I will be seeking Senator Bartlett—Yes. advice from the Manager of Government Business before he disappears. I have now Senator KEMP—Thank you. There have received advice from him. I need advice from been a number of contributions from senators. him because he is a very good Manager of The new superannuation investment rules Government Business and we like to liaise. were announced in the 1998-99 budget. The investment rules are designed to reduce risk Progress reported. to superannuation savings and to ensure that BUSINESS superannuation is preserved for retirement. The bill will ensure that the fundamental Routine of Business principle that superannuation funds cannot Motion (by Senator Kemp)—by leave— borrow is maintained. This serves to limit the proposed: risk to superannuation savings from geared in- That consideration of government documents not vestments and will also ensure that superan- be proceeded with this day and that government nuation savings are used for retirement pur- business continue till 7.20 p.m. poses. In doing so, the bill will benefit the Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— community as a whole by ensuring that Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (6.47 billions of dollars of superannuation tax p.m.)—On behalf of the opposition, I indicate concessions provided each year are used for that the opposition agrees with that motion their intended purpose, thereby reducing the but I have indicated to the Manager of burden on future age pension outlays. Government Business that it is on the basis An important aspect of the bill will be to that the order of business has been changed enhance the ability of small business owners and I am not expecting Taxation Laws to use their superannuation savings to invest Amendment Bill (No. 8) 1999 to come on this in their own premises by allowing a small evening. But no doubt we will be able to superannuation fund to invest up to 100 per finally dig ourselves out of the mire that cent of its assets in business premises that are Senator Kemp created earlier in the morning. leased to members or to the employer sponsor Question resolved in the affirmative. of the fund. The bill contains a number of transitional arrangements to assist superannua- DOCUMENTS tion funds in adapting to the new arrange- ments. The government has consulted with Tabling key industry and professional groups on the Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (6.48 p.m.)— bill. The bill was referred to the Senate Select by leave—I table my document Chinese Committee on Superannuation and Financial Occupied Tibet and the Tibetans in Exile. Services, which reported on 25 November 1999. After careful examination of the report, SUPERANNUATION LEGISLATION the government has decided to respond to AMENDMENT BILL (No. 4) 1999 some of the issues which have been raised. Second Reading Firstly, on non-geared trusts: a number of Debate resumed. groups such as ASPA have argued that, while the broad thrust of SLAB4 is appropriate, Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (6.48 there should be some scope for investments p.m.)—by leave—I withdraw my second in non-geared related trusts. For instance, it reading amendment. has been argued that this is a means of jointly Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant owning property with a related party as an Treasurer) (6.48 p.m.)—I will make a few alternative to a tenants-in-common relation- observations on the debate on Superannuation ship. To meet this requirement, the govern- Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 4) 1999. ment will move an amendment to create a Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11497 power to make a regulation to exempt particu- (1) Schedule 1, item 13, page 6 (lines 14 and 15), lar classes of assets from being in-house omit "any of paragraphs 71(1)(b) to (f) or assets. The exception will apply only to a paragraph 71(1)(h)", substitute "paragraph 71(1)(b), (ba), (c), (d), (e), (f), (h) or (j)". superannuation fund with fewer than five members that invests in a company or trust (2) Schedule 1, item 28, page 12 (after line 31), which meets specified requirements. at the end of the item, add: ; or (j) an asset included in a class of assets These requirements include that the com- specified in the regulations: pany or trust does not borrow; it does not (i) not to be in-house assets of any invest in or loan money to individuals or fund; or other entities other than deposits with finan- (ii) not to be in-house assets of a class cial institutions; it does not acquire assets of funds to which the fund belongs. from a related party of the superannuation For this purpose, a class of assets may fund other than business real property; it does consist of, but is not limited to, assets not lease assets to related parties or enter into that are investments in entities that under- lease arrangements other than a legally bind- take, or do not undertake, specified activi- ing lease of business or real property to a ties. related property on an arms length basis; and (3) Schedule 1, item 34, page 14 (line 24), omit it conducts all other transactions on an arms "(i)", substitute "(j)". length basis. The government will consult (4) Schedule 1, page 14 (after line 27), after item with accounting and other industry bodies in 34, insert: developing a definition of non-geared com- 34A Subsection 71(5) pany or trust that meets these requirements. Omit all the words from and including "may" As to the start date, concerns were express- to and including "was", substitute "or regula- ed about the lapse of time since the original tions under paragraph (1)(j) may be expressed announcement on 12 May 1998. In response to have taken effect at a time earlier than the the government will move an amendment to time when the determination or regulations were". ensure that the change to the in-house provi- sions will apply only from the date of intro- Note: The heading to subsection 71(5) is altered by inserting "or paragraph (1)(j) regula- duction of the legislation—11 August 1998. tions" after "determinations". The change to allow a small superannuation fund to use 100 per cent of its assets to These amendments will allow a regulation acquire business real property from a related making power to be used to make an excep- party will continue to apply from 12 May tion. This will apply only to a superannuation 1999. fund with fewer than five members that invests in a company or trust which meets the Let me say in conclusion that, by limiting specified requirements. the risk to superannuation savings and ensur- ing that superannuation is used for the intend- Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (6.54 ed purpose of retirement income, the bill will p.m.)—I wish to make a few comments in set a sound framework for superannuation respect of amendments Nos 2 to 4. Govern- savings for decades to come. As I have ment amendment No. 2 will allow the govern- already mentioned, some government amend- ment to make regulations to exempt certain ments will be moved at the committee stage. assets or classes of assets from being treated I commend the bill to the Senate. as in-house assets. This is an enormously wide power and, without having seen the Question resolved in the affirmative. regulations, how can the Senate be sure of Bill read a second time. what the government is doing? There is In Committee absolutely no need for the government to do this, and Labor is opposing this amendment. The bill. Government amendment No. 3 is a conse- Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant quential amendment. Government amendment Treasurer) (6.53 p.m.)—by leave—I move No. 4 relates to section 71 of the superannua- government amendments Nos 1 to 4: tion industry supervision legislation, known 11498 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 as SIS, which determines the meaning of in- otherwise of in-house assets, that they would house assets. Currently section 71E allows for always be positive and that section 48(2) of the commissioner to make a determination— the Acts Interpretation Act would not come not a regulation but a determination, which is into play because no-one would be worse off. an important point—as to whether an asset should be taken to be an in-house asset. That However, how does the Senate determine determination is a disallowable instrument whether regulations which it has not seen yet under section 46A of the Acts Interpretation are positive or negative? How can we make Act 1901. this decision? In the case of the so-called sur- charge tax bills which were recently passed, Section 71(5) allows for the determination the Senate acted decisively to take the offend- to be retrospective. That is, the commis- ing provision out of the bill. These provisions sioner’s determination given in writing to the were to allow the government the capacity to trustee of a super fund may be expressed to override section 48(2) of the Acts Interpreta- have taken effect at a time earlier than the tion Act. Retrospective regulations should not time when the determination was made. That generally be allowed to be made. Certainly is seen as being positive, as it means that if the Labor opposition and the Australian a superannuation fund asks for clarification of Democrats have acted on this before, and I the status of a particular asset, it can be given call on the Australian Democrats to act in the in-house asset status from the date the super same way as we did on the previous occasion fund acquired it rather than from the date the and not to support government amendment commissioner makes the determination. No. 4. However, the government’s amendment No. 4 is asking that regulations be included. That Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (6.58 p.m.)— is, the government is asking the Senate to I want to indicate that the Democrats will allow it to make regulations that can operate support this and other amendments. As I said retrospectively. We ran into this type of in the second reading debate, we think they request from the government in a previous go to many of the problems that were identi- debate on the recently passed so-called sur- fied by those who made submissions to the charge tax amendment bills, and the Senate inquiry. We support the thrust of them, and made a clear decision, supported by the we were instrumental in assisting to develop Australian Democrats, that the government them as well. There is a question I want to should not have a power to make retrospec- put to the minister, and it relates to the fact tive regulations. that this amendment allows the regulations to specify assets. I want to ask how the minister Firstly, it must override the Acts Interpreta- will proceed to develop definitions of real tion Act 1901 to do so, and I ask the govern- property and with whom he will consult. If ment whether or not its amendment is correct. we could get some assurances on the record Senator Kemp will recall that the opposition about that process, Minister, I think we would has previously corrected his amendments. be rather more confident that this will happen Section 48(2) of the Acts Interpretation Act to our satisfaction. specifically relates to the timing of the regula- tions and states that a regulation has no effect Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant if it takes effect before the date of notification Treasurer) (6.59 p.m.)—In relation to the if the rights of a person would be so affected matters raised by Senator Sherry, any regula- as to disadvantage that person. Secondly, tions would be beneficial in the sense of liabilities would be imposed on a person in excluding things from being in-house assets. respect of anything done or omitted to be Regulations come before this chamber. If done before the date of notification. That is, Senator Sherry and the Senate are unhappy regulations shall generally not be retrospec- with the regulations, they have the power to tive, particularly if they disadvantage a person disallow the regulations. That provides the or impose a liability. It could be argued, if safety check that Senator Sherry was referring regulations were made about the status or to. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11499

In relation to the matters that Senator improved the situation slightly, they do not go Allison raised, let me assure you that the to the heart of the problems that Labor has government will consult with accounting and with this bill. other industry bodies in developing a defini- I would like Senator Allison to explain tion of non-geared company or trust that why, on this occasion, she is supporting meets these requirements. This is a consulta- retrospective regulations when we have not tive government, and we will ensure that there seen the regulations. She is taking the govern- is a proper process of consultation, which I ment on trust. On a previous occasion when know you would want. we considered this approach, we were not Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (7.00 prepared to do it in respect of superannuation. p.m.)—I have a couple of other points to I do not want to extend the debate, but this raise. Apparently the Democrats have entered government has a pretty patchy record on into an agreement with the government in superannuation. I am being mild in my criti- respect of the regulations that we are con- cism because I am aware of the time con- sidering. I point out to the Senate that the straints we are under. I would not be taking changes to the amendments that are being anything on trust in respect of this govern- presented to the chamber, as a result of the ment and superannuation. W e d o n o t deal between the government and the Austral- believe there should be an overriding of the ia Democrats, do not satisfy Labor’s central Acts Interpretation Act 1901. There would concerns and principles with this legislation. need to be extraordinary circumstances for They do not deal with the issues or the that to occur. On the argument advanced by concerns that were raised by the witnesses the government to date, we are not faced with that came before the Senate committee. We any sort of reasonably extraordinary circum- received some of the strongest submissions stance to warrant the Acts Interpretation Act and evidence that I have ever seen before any being overridden in a way that is occurring committee in my time in the Senate opposing here. I would like a response from Senator the central principles of this legislation Allison. These amendments do not satisfy our concerns about the legislation and we will I will make it clear for the record: the still be opposing the legislation. amendments that the Democrats, together with Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (7.04 p.m.)— the government, have drafted do not deal with I think it has already been pointed out to those problems. They do not deal with the Senator Sherry by the minister that the regula- five key criteria that I outlined in my speech tions are a disallowable instrument of the during the second reading debate. They do not Senate. If we are not satisfied with them, that deal with the first point: that the government is the action that we can take. I can assure has provided no substantive evidence of a you, Senator Sherry, that we will not be afraid systemic abuse by DIY super funds of the to disallow if that is found to be necessary by current investment rules. They do not deal the Senate. We will be looking forward to with the point that, if there are concerns in seeing what those definitions are and taking this area, the Superannuation Legislation advice, as no doubt you will, about whether Amendment Bill (No. 3), which was passed or not they pass the scrutiny of the Senate. with the support of the opposition, will largely address the problems, if there are Amendments agreed to. problems. There are other ways of tightening Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant existing laws that will better address the Treasurer) (7.05 p.m.)—by leave—I move perceived problems. For example, the tax government amendments (5) to (11): office will now be regulating in this area. (5) Schedule 1, heading to section 71A, page 15 They do not deal with the difficulties that this (line 15), omit "pre-12 May 1998", substitute legislation will cause for some small busines- "pre-11 August 1999". ses. They do not deal with the difficulties of (6) Schedule 1, heading to section 71B, page 16 some people in rural and regional Australia. (line 28), omit "pre-12 May 1998", substitute Whilst some of these amendments may have "pre-11 August 1999". 11500 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

(7) Schedule 1, item 35, page 22 (lines 1 and 2), Whilst I am on my feet—and I am aware of omit all the words from and including "7.30" the time—I might point out that I notice that to and including "1998", substitute "the end of the Australia Democrats have withdrawn the 11 August 1999". amendment that they were going to move in (8) Schedule 1, item 46, page 24 (lines 10 to 14), respect of same sex couples. That is regret- omit all the words from and including "after" to and including "(the test time)", substitute table. "after the end of 11 August 1999 (the test Senator McGauran interjecting— time), unless the asset was acquired under a contract entered into before the test time". Senator SHERRY—It is regrettable be- cause the amendment would have required a (9) Schedule 1, item 46, page 24 (line 18), omit "the test time", substitute "7.30 pm by legal report from the government. It was not actual- time in the Australian Capital Territory on 12 ly amending the legislation. It is a sad day for May 1998". the Democrats to be backing down on these (10) Schedule 1, item 46, page 24 (line 29), omit types of issues, particularly when it was a "the introduction time", substitute "the test pretty limp old amendment that the govern- time". ment apparently was not going to accept. It is (11) Schedule 1, item 46, page 25 (line 3), omit inconsistent with the recommendations of the "the introduction time", substitute "the test Senate select committee, of which Senator time". Watson was the chair. The government would These amendments ensure the changes to the not accept that amendment. Just so there is no in-house provisions will apply only from the argument, it says: date of introduction of the legislation, that is, "and that there be laid on the table, on or before 11 August 1999. As the amendments have the last sitting day in March 2000, details of all only recently been agreed to, they are not legislative changes that would be required to ensure the recognition and equal treatment of same-sex accompanied by a supplementary explanatory couples under all Commonwealth superannuation memorandum. and taxation legislation". Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (7.05 For the life of me, I cannot see what the p.m.)—These amendments improve the bill. government objected to. It was not changing They do not deal with all the central con- the law as such; it was about the handing cerns, but they do deal with one issue. They down of a report. I think it is very disappoint- effectively shift the date from the budget ing that the Democrats will not be proceeding announcement in May 1998 to 11 August with what is not a particularly dramatic 1999. The reason that that needs to occur— amendment anyway, but they can explain amongst many other matters that unfortunate- themselves to the various communities who ly are not occurring—is that it took so long are concerned about this issue. I have com- for the government to present detailed legisla- mented on this matter here because I know tion to the parliament. It took 18 months after we want to deal with the bill prior to the the budget announcement, and this caused conclusion of business this evening. enormous uncertainty within those sections of the superannuation industry handling do-it- Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (7.08 p.m.)— yourself superannuation. I know the minister In answer to Senator Sherry’s remarks about on a number of occasions has said, ‘We our second reading amendment, he will be consulted widely and we consulted for this pleased to know that a notice of motion on time.’ I point out to the Senate that we have the amendment was put by my colleague some different provisions from the original Senator Bartlett this afternoon, and the Labor budget announcement because there was such Party will have a chance to vote on that a backlash. But it took 18 months for the motion tomorrow. I look forward to the government to bring in the legislation. That ALP’s support. is why we are considering this date. These I point out that we will be supporting these amendments do improve it, but they do not government amendments too. We are pleased deal with the other central concerns that that the government recognised the hardship Labor has. that would have arisen from the retrospectivi- Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11501 ty back to May 1998 that was embedded in With due respect to you, Senator Allison, I the original bill. We think that bringing it think that, on this matter, the government is forward to 11 August is a reasonable ap- having the Democrats on. They do not intend proach, together with allowing a much longer to progress that issue at all. If they did, the period for funds to comply—on to the year bill would be in here for us to consider and 2009. to deal with this important issue with respect Senator WATSON (Tasmania) (7.09 to superannuation and same sex couples. It is p.m.)—I think the amendments reflect the a fundamental right for a person who has wisdom of referring this bill to the Senate superannuation moneys accumulated in their Select Committee on Superannuation and name to designate what they want done with Financial Services. Most of the issues that their money. Governments have no place in were raised in that report have been picked up interfering with that. by the government. I thank the government Senator McGauran interjecting— for that. It will facilitate the operation of superannuation in Australia. Senator SHERRY—There is a problem in a range of areas, Senator McGauran, not just I would like to remind Senator Sherry that with nomination of beneficiaries, but that is the issue that he was referring to was largely not the subject of the debate now. That will addressed earlier in the superannuation No. 1 conclude my contribution. I make it clear that legislation that passed this parliament. That we are not happy. We do not believe the response was a very meaningful epoch-mak- amendments satisfy the concerns that are ing response, and I do not think it is neces- being raised. We do not support this legisla- sary to take the matter any further at the mo- tion. I will not be calling a division because ment. I thank the minister for picking up of the time of year and the time of the eve- these issues. It will certainly make distribu- ning, but I make it very clear that that is the tions from funds a lot easier as a result of an Labor Party’s position. ungeared unit trust. I thank the minister. Amendments agreed to. Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (7.10 Bill, as amended, agreed to. p.m.)—All I can say is that if you look at the evidence and the issues that were presented to Bill reported with amendments; report the superannuation committee hearings on this adopted. matter, the amendments that the Democrats Third Reading and the government have put together do not deal with many of the concerns raised by Motion (by Senator Kemp) proposed: persons who appeared before the committee That this bill be now read a third time. and the issues raised in the submissions. Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (7.14 Frankly, I am not sure what Senator Watson p.m.)—I indicate for the record that the Labor was referring to in terms of SLAB 1. I as- Party opposes the bill for the reasons that I sume it was same sex couples, was it, Senator have outlined in the previous contribution. Watson? Question resolved in the affirmative. Senator Watson—Yes. Bill read a third time. Senator SHERRY—Okay. I also point out NOTICES to the Senate that we do have a private members bill in the House of Representatives, Presentation I think moved by my colleague Mr Albanese Senator Kemp to move, on the next day of and seconded by Mr Danby. It is a very sitting: important piece of legislation. Again I say to That on Thursday, 9 December 1999: the Democrats: if the government is fair (a) consideration of general business, and dinkum on this, let us see that bill in here and consideration of committee reports and being dealt with, as well as your proposed government responses under standing order amendment. 62(1) not be proceeded with; 11502 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

(b) the routine of business from the time at shopping and audio are really developments which general business would otherwise of the 1990s. commence shall be government business only; and As politicians, political parties, lobbyists, (c) divisions may take place after 6 pm. community organisations and individuals have all started to use these techniques, the impact ADJOURNMENT that the new form of communication will have on politics, on communities and on the way Motion (by Senator Kemp) proposed: we interact has also been considered. There That the Senate do now adjourn. are some very significant issues at the heart of this—issues like availability, access, skill Information Technology: Politics renewal, and of course the impact on politics Senator PAYNE (New South Wales) (7.15 and politicians. Perhaps the most fundamental p.m.)—The United States magazine George question for us is whether new technologies is essentially representative of the mainstream will somehow change the way that we interact of politics. It is American, previously edited with our constituencies. Some people believe by the late John F. Kennedy Jr, and has both that communication facilitated by IT between Democrat and Republican columnists. So if politicians and the community can introduce you read an article in George about the a more equitable relationship, allowing politi- impact of the Internet on politics, you know cians and citizens to contribute equally. that IT has moved beyond the realm of Lawrence K. Grossman, former President of specialised interest and into the mainstream. America’s NBC News, says that new forms In fact, a casual browse of the Net demon- of communication based on IT will change strates how seriously those involved in US contemporary politics. He said: politics take the power of the web. From Gutenberg made everybody a reader, Xerox made George Bush Jr’s presidential campaign to everybody a publisher, and interactive telecom- Hillary Clinton’s run for the Senate to Donald munications is making everybody a lobbyist. Trump’s campaign for the Reform Party That is a compelling proposition for anyone nomination, American politicians are delving interested in engaging more people in the into this medium with unbridled enthusiasm. process of politics. But studies conducted in Even the Stop Hillary campaign gets a guern- the United States indicate that whilst the new sey here and there. Each of these has a mediums of exchange on the Internet and significant presence on the web—providing email will have a great impact on political information, soliciting support and donations, communication, they are in fact more likely and giving browsers the opportunity to ask to reinforce the existing structure of American questions or make comments. I can only politics than to change it. So whether the Net imagine that, as the US presidential race heats and email actually change the way people up early next year, web presence will become think about politics and politicians remains to increasingly important. be seen. Certainly there are differences be- As important as IT is in US politics, so too tween the American and Australian scenarios. is it in the Australian environment. The 1990s As most members and senators could explosion of the Internet has already had attest—some more positively than others—the enormous implications for political communi- introduction of email facilities for members of cation. The use of the World Wide Web, this parliament has been greeted enthusiasti- email, bulletin boards and other means of cally by our constituents. Certainly over Internet based communication has increased recent times I, like all senators, have been on enormously in what is really a relatively short the receiving end of a number of email period of time. After all, the Internet as we campaigns, from Jabiluka, to Internet censor- know it effectively only came into existence ship to, more recently, the situation in East in recent decades. Whilst Her Majesty is said Timor. The number of people using email to to have sent the first royal email in 1976, the contact parliamentarians is increasing. What advances of contemporary browsers, online is undeniable is that devices like email and Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11503

Internet sites are important tools for politi- ments. It is called Insite and a copy has been cians and their constituents alike—and therein provided to the Parliamentary Library. It was perhaps lies the difference with some of the launched recently at an event I organised in historical comparisons I have made. Sydney to celebrate both the growth of the IT Perhaps the real test of this method of industry and the important role of Australian exchange will be how we as parliamentarians women in this growth. choose to respond to emails. The delivery of Two speakers addressed the launch of a message via electronic means does not Insite. The first speaker was Barry O’Farrell, change the validity of the message or make it the New South Wales state member who is more or less important than a letter or a fax, Deputy Leader of the Opposition and shadow but it might actually change the expectations minister for information technology. His of the person who sends the message. The portfolio passion is IT innovation in New issue of how to respond to email messages is South Wales and the potential boost for our being considered right across international state. He is a keen follower of a range of IT politics. People who email the US President issues, including Internet content, Y2K chal- get an email confirmation of their message lenges and IT training. and, if it is appropriate, a letter in response. The second speaker that we enjoyed hearing The Prime Minister encourages members of from was Ruby Blessing. She has seen the the public to leave comments on his web site average web browser go from a simple, text but to pursue detailed matters through other based interface with grey backgrounds and no means, like contacting their local member or animation to a fully integrated multimedia senator. delivery tool. She is one of the world’s An ongoing challenge is dealing with the leading web designers and has been a regular global nature of the Internet. As senators who recipient of awards for her work. Acknow- represent a particular state, or members who ledged as the most prolific female web de- represent an even more specific constituency signer in the world, she has designed more in the lower house, the way in which the Net than 100 corporate, institution and cultural and email open up access to people from all web sites. Inducted into the Australian Busi- over the world is a challenge that I suspect ness Women’s Hall of Fame in 1999, she now will be met in different ways by different operates a consultancy for businesses and members. Some might just hit ‘delete’ whilst cultural institutions wanting to take full others might view email as they would a letter advantage of the Internet and all forms of IT. or a telephone inquiry from someone outside Ms Blessing shared a number of her experi- their constituency. The most important thing ences and thoughts in this area and, when in all of this is that members and senators do remarking on the launch of Insite, said: not ignore the opportunity that the Internet Browsing through . . . Insite I was impressed by the and email create for us, and that constituent number of members embracing the Internet to contact generated through new technologies inform and communicate with their electorates. is embraced enthusiastically. Most were extremely up to date with a diverse range of content and features. Regardless of In the Australian context, both federal and political persuasion, it’s hard not to get excited state parliamentarians have taken up the IT about this sort of dynamic use of the Internet. challenge with enthusiasm. Many members of For politics in 1999 and beyond, the Internet this chamber have a Net presence, and many and personal home pages offer a huge range others are following suit. I think it is fair to of opportunities and advantages for parlia- say that members of the coalition are leading mentarians, and Insite seeks to harness the in many ways in the trend. To provide a growing involvement of members of the central registry of all individual coalition coalition in that area. I was pleased to see, for members’ home pages, I have published a example, in putting it all together, that many directory that profiles the personal home Senate colleagues are keenly involved in pages of my coalition colleagues from the leading the charge in engagement on the Net. New South Wales and Commonwealth parlia- Senators Boswell, Calvert, Gibson, Knowles, 11504 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Troeth and Tambling and many of our lower members in the other place, to maintain an house colleagues have extremely impressive active interest and an active presence in this sites. Since the publication of Insite even regard. I look forward to continuing to do that more have been raised with me or are under and to hearing from a lot more young people construction, and they will be in there as well. in particular through my web site. In commenting on the publication of Insite, the Prime Minister said that this initiative Salmon Industry: Rural and Regional might act as a tool to ‘grow and encourage Affairs and Transport Committee Report our colleagues to use online tools to keep in Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (7.25 touch with our customers, the Australian p.m.)—Tonight I would just like to say a few public’. Hopefully, that is an opportunity words about the Senate Rural and Regional everybody will take up. Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee interim report on the Australian Quarantine At the same time as I launched Insite, I also and Inspection Service and the importation of took the opportunity to launch a new redevel- salmon. The report is an interim report, and oped web site of my own—easily found at I am very pleased to see that the committee www.marisepayne.com. It has already seen is taking this issue as seriously as it is. But, huge amounts of new traffic and I am very having said that, I would like to make a few pleased with its progress. It is particularly comments with regard to evidence given to interesting to hear from the people who are the committee, particularly by the Australian logging on—ranging from young people at Quarantine and Inspection Service and the school to professionals and retired workers Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. from New South Wales, Australia and interna- tionally. There is a huge diversity of interest, I was somewhat amazed at evidence given and that diversity is something I think we by the Department of Foreign Affairs and should encourage and facilitate. Trade on what is a very important issue for this country, being an agricultural producer in Even my political party—the Liberal Party very significant terms, and it in turn being a of New South Wales—is engaged in a major very important part of our exports to other redevelopment and review of its web site. countries around the world. The quarantine Under the guidance of Country Vice-President matter that goes to salmon relates to the Robyn Parker it has been completely over- sanitary and phytosanitary agreement—or the hauled. Now if you log on you get informa- SPS agreement—that has arisen out of the tion on the party, its parliamentary representa- World Trade Organisation. We as a country tions, regular publications and different parts played a very significant role in the develop- of the organisation. The New South Wales ment of the SPS agreement, so one would Young Liberal Movement has gone through have thought that we would have had some a similar process and has a very dynamic site degree of expertise in its application. But you that I think makes it comparable to any other certainly would not be able to glean that if youth political organisation in Australia. you were to look at and take account of our Most importantly, though, in this whole Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade’s process, the coalition and I, in particular, performance before the committee. It would recognise the importance of utilising the new seem that they know very little of its work- technologies to maximise our community ings. interaction—to maximise our contact with our I have spoken on the issue of salmon on a constituents in the most advanced and techno- number of occasions with regard to the logically progressive way. I can say with restrictions on the importation of not only great assurance this evening that the coali- Canadian salmon but also salmon from around tion—in the parliament and in the states and the world. As we know, there are many territories—is taking up huge opportunities diseases that occur in a range of species of fin offered through the Internet, which is very fish. Arising out of the setting up of the commendable indeed. I think it is a funda- World Trade Organisation, countries were mental part of our jobs as senators, and as required to bring into line the levels of pro- Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11505 tection—or the ALOP measures—that they itary measures that relate to import restrictions would have in place. that can or cannot be used by countries in As I said from the outset, we, AQIS and respect of trade. Since these measures have DFAT would lay claim to being major players been in place, other countries have sought to in the development of the World Trade use them. I think one of the biggest economic Organisation’s sanitary and phytosanitary traders in the world, the US, has on a number measures that relate to animal and human of occasions sought to use them very blatantly health. If that is the case, I have to say that I as trade restriction measures and their applica- am just amazed that we have not been able to tions have been defeated on at least two proceed appropriately. Back in 1994, we occasions at the WTO. But we proceeded to received applications from countries with actually present something and, of course, regard to the restrictions that we had in place when the 1996 report was submitted, Canada for the importation of salmon meats. AQIS, disputed its finding, the disputes panel upheld under WTO rules, was required to proceed to Canada’s position and there was an appeal. conduct an import risk analysis—and it did. But we still did not proceed down the road to In 1995 it brought down a draft report. The fulfil even one very important part of an draft report contained recommendations to lift import risk analysis—that is, to actually the existing restrictions which had been in outline the communication process for many place since 1975. Subsequently, it brought of the diseases that salmonoids would be down a report in 1996 that recommended the susceptible to that were found in other parts maintenance of the restrictions. of the world but not in Australia. Can I say also that the WTO itself had yet to finalise an There is a total inconsistency in that. What import risk analysis process. It had yet to lay changed between 1995 and 1996? Little, I down the strict rules upon which a country would suggest. What new scientific evidence was expected to develop or write its risk came to light? None, I would suggest. That analysis. gave cause for concern at the WTO. The fact If we look around the world to see how that when AQIS prepared their draft report in salmonoid diseases have been communicated 1995 they gave copies of it to the Canadians from one place to another, it is very interest- in particular, who were joined by the US in ing. Nobody really knows how many of these their application to have our restrictions diseases, which really started out in parts of removed, is surprising, to say the least. It was Europe, were communicated to the United a draft report. Little or no consultation had States, to Canada and to other parts of the been conducted with recreational fishing world. Nobody really knows, but what you people here, or even with those who are always get is the line that there is no evidence involved in farming of salmonoids in this to demonstrate that this occurred as a result country, not just in Tasmania. As I said, in of a trade in product. In Europe in particular, 1996 they bought out a final report that and even now in parts of the United States recommended the retention of restrictions. Of and Canada, you have a salmon farming course, it was quite obvious that the Ca- industry that is very significant. That is not to nadians would actually take us to the WTO say it is not a good industry, because it disputes panel. If we look at the WTO pro- actually can be a good industry. They have cess in that respect, we can see that the panel the basis of all of the scientific data that has of experts put together by the WTO when been developed because it has been in their they were considering the processes that interest to develop it. Of course you would AQIS used in the conduct of its risk analysis not expect them to come up with answers that raised questions about whether or not AQIS say, ‘We have a problem with regard to the conducted their import risk analysis appropri- transmission of disease and it actually can ately, and I think rightly so. occur through the transport of product.’ The very relevant point about that is this: Things like whirling disease have gone almost we lay claim to being major contributors to right around the world. It started off in Eu- the development of the sanitary and phytosan- rope and has gone to the US and to Canada. 11506 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

It was never found in New Zealand but is the report says that effective management now found in New Zealand, and nobody procedures should include in-patient and wants to acknowledge how it got there, but outpatient hospital care, specialist community you will always get the excuse. treatment and support services. It is also We have heard from the government that important for these people to have regular and we do not have the capacity to enter into a ongoing contact with a general practitioner trade war with Canada over salmon. That is and they should be encouraged to be active simply not the point; it misses the point participants in community activities. altogether. The reality is that there are trade We should be able to expect that govern- laws. If the WTO is to function appropriately, ment health services will help people with we as a country have every right to take up psychosis to manage their illness. Yet half of the arguments in accordance with the trade those surveyed reported that when they laws, and we should do so. It does not mean needed a particular government service in the that the government has to readily accept, as past 12 months they were unable to receive it has on this occasion, an outcome from the assistance. WTO. (Time expired) SANE also found that services provided by Psychotic Illness government agencies were not as helpful as church based and other non-government ones. Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (7.35 p.m.)— There is an increased need for community I rise tonight to talk once again about the lack based support and education programs. Drop- of adequate support for Australians with in centres, day programs, mutual support psychotic illnesses. Psychotic disorders cover groups and places where people can work a diverse group of illnesses that are character- together to reduce stigmatisation and isolation ised by distortions of perceptions, thinking are all essential for the chronically ill to build and responses. Psychotic illness is usually their social skills. This support is extremely linked to a loss of the ability to enjoy life and important to people with psychotic illness, to mood disturbance and depression. Schizo- especially as they grow older. phrenia, bipolar and delusional disorders are Thirty per cent of people with psychotic included in this group and the symptoms illnesses rent; others live in hostels or group debilitate many members of our community. housing. Ten per cent of those people are The point I want to make tonight is that they homeless at any point. Funding for more are not receiving adequate care and support. rehabilitation programs is absolutely essential, The National Survey of Mental Health and as only 19 per cent of people with a chronic Wellbeing, established by the Commonwealth illness attended rehabilitation programs during Department of Health and Aged Care back in the past year. Yet we know that these pro- 1996, painted a bleak picture for over 100,000 grams are important to complement much Australians living with long-term psychotic needed clinical care and provide assistance illness. It told us just how common mental with accommodation needs. illness is in our communities. SANE Australia Funding for a range of specialist supported was invited by the mental health branch to housing is essential. Constant shifting is respond to a follow-up study of over 1,000 detrimental to recovery or maintenance of people and it published the results in a report psychotic illness. People with physical illness- entitled A SANE response. These members of es receive government funded care in their our community are suffering and they are home, but only 25 per cent of those surveyed more likely to be the victims rather than the by SANE receive advice on looking after perpetrators of violence. They are often themselves at home. Forty-three per cent of homeless and they are missing out on suitable those surveyed say that they are never free of accommodation and much needed rehabilita- symptoms and 75 per cent of those on medi- tion and recreation. cation suffer side effects severe enough to As most people now receive treatment for impair their lives. Yet disturbingly, only 19 psychotic illnesses outside a hospital setting, per cent had taken part in rehabilitation Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11507 services and one in 10 surveyed was homeless strategies people have often fail as they grow or living in marginal accommodation. older. Many people have welcomed the closure of The matter is urgent. If we do not act now, substandard supported residential services. in five or 10 years time, as SANE points out, However, many of these unfunded accommo- the problem will be much worse. Again, I dation homes in Victoria, my home state, are congratulate SANE on another important facing closure due to increasing costs and report and I urge the government to make room size restrictions being placed on them sure the findings and recommendations do not by the state government Department of Hu- just sit on shelves gathering dust. man Services. Their closure has driven many psychotically ill people out onto the streets. Christianity Where building regulations are maintained and adequate support is provided by properly Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Parliamentary trained managers and staff, these accommoda- Secretary to the Minister for Defence) (7.43 tion homes provide stability in what is a very p.m.)—As we face the end of 1999 and fragile world for people with psychotic ill- celebrate the commencement of the year ness. They offer far more security than cara- 2000, it is appropriate for us as a nation and vans or homelessness to people who are as a people to reflect. Tonight, I do not want solely reliant on the disability support pen- to concentrate on when the new century and sion. millennium will actually start. No doubt that This year, during September-October alone, will be an interesting debate that many people SANE identified 189 people needing full-time will have over their family barbecues, around care. Considering that this figure did not the table, at the bar, at meetings and at include such heavily populated areas as the Christmas parties. It will make for interesting Mornington Peninsula and Mildura, this paints discussion and I am not sure whether it will a grim picture indeed. People were found to be resolved as to when the new century and be bouncing between hostels, community millennium should be celebrated. homes, generic hospitals and nursing homes. Tonight, the chance is that this is my last SANE points out that there are not enough speech in this parliament for 1999 and, psycho-geriatric beds available for older therefore, possibly this century or millennium. people suffering from a psychotic illness. If I invite the Australian people to reflect on they are placed in a nursing home, they find why we will be celebrating the year 2000. that other residents resent them. At Mont Why is it the year 2000 and not 2001 or Park, just north of Melbourne, 26 beds are indeed the year 3000? What was the com- available and SANE found that beds in acute mencement point for the counting of the admission wards are often used. In these years? places, many patients were overdosed and re- admissions are frequent. Next year, we commence the year 2000 AD, the year of our Lord. The years before It is not a pretty picture. Once again I call AD are known as BC, or Before Christ. No upon all tiers of government to recognise the other person in the history of the world has needs of Australians living with psychotic had such a significant impact on the world or, illness. Like any other group, people affected indeed, had their birth as the commencement by persistent psychotic illness should be date of the counting of years. We in this place consulted in the development of programs and often consider what the place in history might service management plans designed for them. be for us, our political party, a particular SANE encourages government departments leader and particular ministers and backbench- to work closely together to improve the links ers, all of whom make their own individual between existing services and to build on contribution. In fairness, I simply say that them so that as these people age they receive none of us will even be a footnote in the the care they need. In many older people, the history of the world in comparison to what symptoms become unstable and the coping eventuated with the birth of Christ. 11508 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

The Christian faith is, of course, embraced The overwhelming embracing of the Chris- by the overwhelming majority of the Austral- tian faith is, unfortunately, ignored by com- ian people. Statistics tell us that 71 per cent mentators today. Indeed, there has been a of people in our Aboriginal community trend of late to belittle the Christian faith, identify themselves as Christian and as em- especially by commentators and certain bracing the Christian faith. An overwhelming writers and journalists. Indeed, sometimes number of migrants similarly adopt the Chris- even in this place, an odd interjection is made tian faith. Indeed, the Christian faith has had to members of the Parliamentary Christian a great impact on the development of this Fellowship. One wonders whether that same nation. Many of our founding fathers, such as lack of understanding and compassion to the Alfred Deakin and Henry Parkes, were quite Christian faith would be accepted if it were to open about the role the Christian faith played be shown about other faiths within the com- in their life. munity. I think not. People would be labelled Indeed, on 1 December, when reading the as politically unreconstructed. It seems that at Herald Sun, I saw an article by a former very the moment it is fair game to be highly distinguished minister of this parliament, critical of the Christian faith, which is em- James Killen, about why Ming, or Mr Men- braced by well over three-quarters of the zies, is his No. 1. One of the interesting Australian people. things that Sir James Killen pointed out was The Christian faith has been a liberating that Mr Menzies, in his view, had three great force and a force for good. The life and strengths. Allow me to quote from the article: example of Christ is a life that we should all When he opened the National Memorial Bible seek to emulate. I fully admit—I am sure a House in Canberra in February 1960 he said: "The lot of my colleagues would understand—that Bible is the repository of our faith and inspiration. I fail in that regard. Madam President, you It is the great source of faith, and that is why we would be aware of that from time to time, should read it." especially during question time, when I may Sir James Killen then went on to say: not necessarily be as unreservedly forgiving The spiritual strength commanded by Robert as I ought to be. As an example of leadership Gordon Menzies has virtually passed unobserved. through service, the life and example of Christ, I believe, is one that we can all learn Its existence in my view . . . was vital in the building of the Menzies era. from. It was also vital for, as I said before, our Suicides and some of the social problems founding fathers, such as Alfred Deakin, who that our nation faces often have their roots in will not be known by many Australian people. a lack of spiritual dimension in the lives of They prayed and fasted for so many days to the people concerned. People see no hope or get the wording of the Australian Constitution purpose beyond the immediate problem. They right. Henry Parkes, who is seen as the father often see themselves as an accident, as some of our federation, said: would have us believe this whole world is, that is, it just happened as a result of some As we are pre-eminently a Christian people, our laws, our whole system of jurisprudence, our big bang theory; they are here as a result of constitution are based on and interwoven with our an accident; and if the ride is not too good, Christian beliefs. they might as well put an end to the accident It was also important for many of the great they are currently experiencing; and, there- explorers, such as Leichhardt, Sturt and Eyre, fore, there is no future and no hope for them. and people such as Reverend John Flynn— On the other hand, the Christian faith tells Flynn of the Inland—of the Royal Flying us that we are all unique and special, and that Doctor Service, who had the words painted on there is a purpose for us in the scheme of his plane ‘For Christ and country’. So many things as designed by the great architect of people in the development of our nation have the universe. As we reflect on the last 2,000 acknowledged the importance of their faith in years and the last 200-plus years, there is no their endeavours. doubt in my mind that the Christian faith has Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11509 been an overwhelming force for good. So the Convention No. 181—Private employment purpose of my rising to my feet this evening agencies. is to invite the Australian people to consider Declaration on fundamental principles and the basis of the real reason why we will be rights at work and its follow-up adopted by the celebrating Christmas in 17 days time and, International Labour Conference, 86th Session, Geneva, 18 June 1998. indeed, a new year in 23 days time. Let us remember the real reason we are celebrating. Recommendations— I am sure that if we all do that as individuals No. 188—Private employment agencies. and as a society, the future of Australia will No. 189—General conditions to stimulate be blessed and it will be great. My hope is job creation in small and medium-sized that, as the new year, the new century and the enterprises. new millennium commence, we do not forget National Rail Corporation Limited (National the importance of the Christian faith and the Rail)—Report for 1998-99. Christian roots of our nation. Natural Heritage Trust—Report for 1998-99. Treaties— Senate adjourned at 7.53 p.m. List of multilateral treaty action under negotia- tion or consideration by the Australian DOCUMENTS Government. Tabling Text, together with national interest analysis— Bilateral—Agreement between the Govern- The following government documents were ment of Australia and the Government of tabled: the Republic of Korea on Scientific and Australian Communications Authority— Technological Co-operation, done at Can- Telecommunications performance—Report for berra on 17 September 1999. 1998-99. Multilateral— Australian Land Transport Development Pro- Agreement for the Establishment of the gram—Progress reports— International Development Law Institute, 1995-96. done at Rome on 5 February 1988. 1996-97. Convention on Damage caused by For- 1997-98. eign Aircraft to Third Parties on the Surface, done at Rome on 7 October Australia Post—Statement of corporate intent 1952—Denunciation. 1999/2000 to 2001/2002. The following documents were tabled by Defence—Report for 1998-99—Corrigendum. the Clerk: Health Insurance Act—Mid-term review of provider number legislation, December 1999. Civil Aviation Act—Civil Aviation Regula- tions—Civil Aviation Orders—Instrument No. International Labour Organisation— CASA 1095/99. Australia’s submission report on International Endangered Species Protection Act—Declaration Labour Organisation (ILO) instruments adopt- under section 18 amending Schedule 1— ed in— 99/ESP011. 1997—Private employment agencies. Superannuation Act 1990—Deed to establish an 1998—Declaration on fundamental princi- occupational superannuation scheme for ples and rights at work, and general condi- Commonwealth employees and certain other tions to stimulate job creation in small and persons, pursuant to section 5—Thirteenth medium-sized enterprises. amending deed, dated 5 December 1999. 11510 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

The following answers to questions were circulated:

Department of Foreign Affairs and provided in support of the travel allowance claim Trade: Cost of Legal Advice from the without the provision of a receipt. Attorney-General’s Department (5) On how many occasions did each staff member apply for travel allowance in advance of (Questions Nos 1717 and 1722) the travel being undertaken. Senator Faulkner asked the Minister 1601 Minister representing the Prime Minister representing the Minister for Foreign Affairs 1602 Minister representing the Minister for Trans- and the Minister for Trade, upon notice, on 2 port and Regional Services November 1999: 1603 Minister representing the Treasurer (1) What has been the total cost to the depart- 1604 Minister representing the Minister for Trade ment, and each agency in the portfolio, of legal advice obtained from the Attorney-General’s 1605 Minister for the Environment and Heritage Department in the 1998-99 financial year. 1606 Minister for Communications, Information (2) What has been the total cost to the depart- Technology and the Arts ment, and each agency in the portfolio, in the 1998- 1607 Minister representing the Minister for Em- 99 financial year of legal advice obtained by the ployment, Workplace Relations and Small Business department from other sources. 1608 Minister for Family and Community Services Senator Hill—The answer to the honour- 1609 Minister representing the Minister for Foreign able senator’s question is as follows: Affairs According to the Department’s financial records, 1610 Minister representing the Minister for Defence as well as of agencies in the portfolio, the total 1611 Minister representing the Minister for Health expenditure in the 1998-99 financial year on legal and Aged Care matters (including cost of obtaining legal advice) was as follows: 1612 Minister representing the Minister for Finance and Administration (1) $1,083,465.13 paid to the Attorney-General’s Department. 1613 Minister representing the Minister for Educa- tion, Training and Youth Affairs (2) $949,933.82 paid to other sources. 1614 Minister for Industry, Science and Resources These figures include compensation and other payments, as well as the cost of purchasing legal 1615 Minister representing the Attorney-General services. It would be very difficult, and would 1616 Minister representing the Minister for Immi- require an unreasonable diversion of resources, to gration and Multicultural Affairs identify only those payments made for legal advice. 1617 Minister representing the Minister for Agri- culture, Fisheries and Forestry Travel Allowances 1618 Minister for Justice and Customs (Question Nos 1601-1629) 1619 Minister for Aged Care Senator O’Brien asked the Ministers listed 1620 Minister representing the Minister for below, upon notice, on 28 September 1999: Veterans’ Affairs (1) How many personal, ministerial, electorate 1621 Assistant Treasurer and parliamentary secretarial staff have claimed 1622 Special Minister of State travel allowance since 1 June 1999. 1623 Minister representing the Minister for Arts (2) What is the total value of travel allowance and the Centenary of Federation paid to each staff member over the above period. 1624 Minister for Regional Services, Territories (3) In each case, on how many occasions did and Local Government staff members stay in: (a) commercial accommoda- 1625 Minister representing the Minister for Em- tion; and (b) private accommodation. ployment Services (4) On each occasion that a staff member stayed 1626 Minister representing the Minister for Forestry in commercial accommodation, was a receipt and Conservation Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11511

1627 Minister representing the Minister for Finan- (1) (a) What level of Commonwealth funding cial Services and Regulation was provided for vocational education and training 1628 Minister representing the Minister for Sport in Tasmania in the 1995-96, 1996-97, 1997-98, and Tourism 1998-99 financial years; and (b) what level of funding has been appropriated for the 1999-2000 1629 Minister representing the Minister for Com- financial year. munity Services (2) What level of funding in the above years was Senator Ellison—The answer to the hon- allocated for: (a) training policy and innovation; (b) ourable senator’s questions is as follows: entry level training and skills enhancement (c) new (1)—(5) The very detailed information sought in apprenticeships; (d) the Jobs Pathway Program; and the honourable Senator’s question is not readily (e) the Workplace English Language and Literacy available in consolidated form and it would be a Program. major task to collect and assemble it. The practice (3) What level of funding in the above years was of successive governments has been not to author- allocated to Tasmania through the Australian ise the expenditure of time and money involved in National Training Authority. assembling such information on a general basis. Tasmania: Vocational Education and Senator Ellison—The Minister for Educa- Training tion, Training and Youth Affairs has provided (Question No. 1182) the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: Senator O’Brien asked the Minister repre- senting the Minister for Education, Training (1) (a) Commonwealth funding of vocational and Youth Affairs, upon notice, on 6 July education and training in Tasmania for the financial 1999: years requested was:

Financial Year $ 1995-96 29,071,062 1996-97 32,179,593 1997-98 38,779,063 1998-99 39,878,597

(b) Commonwealth funding appropriated for the 1999-2000 financial year is $31,019,928 + this figure includes some elements of Commonwealth funding of vocational education and training in Tasmania for which figures can only be provided on a year to date basis. Current indications are that funding for the full year will, at least equal that for 1998-99. (2) (a) Training policy and innovation currently includes only the Support for New Apprenticeships Program (up to 1997-98, this was included in Entry level training and skills enhancement): Support for New Apprenticeships program funding:

Financial Year $ 1995-96 5,867,069 1996-97 9,285,394 1997-98 9,618,212 1998-99 10,684,245 1999-2000 4,203,055 (Year to date)

(b) Entry level training and skills enhancement consists of the New Apprenticeship Access Program (NAAP), the Small Business Professional Development Best Practice Program (SBPD), training development grants from the Strategic Intervention Program and, up to 1997-98, included funding of Australian Vocational Training System pilots 11512 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Total funding for Entry level training and skills enhancement is:

Financial Year $ 1995-96 334,538 1996-97 1,941,300 1997-98 2,428,600 1998-99 257,000 1999-2000 555,000

This is made up as follows: The New Apprenticeship Access Program which commenced on 1 January 1997, assists job seekers with serious disadvantages in the labour market who wish to obtain a New Apprenticeship but cannot do so without preparatory assistance. Net NAAP funding to Tasmania was allocated via the State training authority, acting as brokers for the Commonwealth.

Financial Year $ 1996-97 115,000 (part year) 1997-98 272,610 1998-99 * 1999-00 **160,000 Notes: * The zero funding for 1998/99 funding is because the Tasmanian State Training Authority decided not to participate in NAAP-III because of dissatisfaction with the terms offered. ** The $160,000 amount for 1999/2000 is on the assumption that the Tasmanian State Training Authority will agree to participate in NAAP-IV. The Small Business Professional Development Best Practice Program (SBPD):

Financial Year $ 1995-96 109,493 1996-97 *1,580,000 1997-98 *2,000,000 1998-99 100,000 1999-2000 220,000 Note: * The Tasmanian Office of Vocational Education and Training managed the national SBPD for these years. The Strategic Intervention Program—Development of training materials:

Financial Year $ 1995-96 25,045

AVTS pilots:

Financial Year $ 1995-96 200,000 1996-97 80,300 1997-98 35,000 Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11513

(c) New Apprenticeships currently consists of the New Apprenticeships Centres and the New Apprenticeships Through Group Training Expansion Program: Total funding for New Apprenticeships is:

Financial Year $ 1997-98 926,120 1998-99 1,129,013 1999-2000 1,295,057

This is made up as follows: New Apprenticeship Centres (NACs) There are three 3 New Apprenticeships Centres (NACs) operating in Tasmania at 12 different sites. NACs came into operation on 1 May 1998 and the level of funding (expenditure) paid to NACs for Fee for Service are:

Financial Year $ 1997-98 926,190 1998-99 1,054,013 1999-2000 1,235,057

New Apprenticeships Through Group Training Expansion Program On 15 September 1998 DETYA entered into a contract with Northern Group Training Limited for a project to recruit an additional 353 New apprentices in small and medium-sized businesses in Tasmania over the period September 1998 to May 2000. The funding is to be allocated as follows:

Financial Year $ 1998-99 75,000 1999-2000 60,000 (d) Jobs Pathway Program The Jobs Pathway Program, which commenced in late 1996, assists young people making the transition from school to work. Projects are funded through an open and competitive tendering process rather than on a state by state basis. Notwithstanding this, the net funding (expenditure) for JPP projects in Tasmania has been:

Financial Year $ 1996-97 66,994 1997-98 29,997 1998-99 *209,250

Contracts with a total value of $1.14 million have been executed in respect of projects for 1999-2000. Initial payments under these new contracts will be made during September 1999. Note: * This figure is in respect of initial payments only and the final level of funding to be paid in respect of projects in Tasmania for 1998-99 may be up to $697,500. 11514 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

(e) The Workplace English Language and Literacy Program allocated the following level of funding:

Financial Year $ 1995/96 218,235 1996/97 245,213 1997/98 421,672 1998/99 344,367 1999/2000 (allocation not finalised

(3) The Australian National Training Authority (ANTA) allocated the following level of funding:

Financial Year $ 1995-96 Recurrent 15,803,753 Capital 6,883,467

1996-97 Recurrent 17,315,889 Capital 3,324,803

1997-98 Recurrent 20,253,442 Capital 5,100,950

1998-99 Recurrent 19,563,716 Capital 7,691,006

1999-2000 Recurrent 20,590,822 (proposed) Capital 3,235,994 (proposed) Note: Funding is provided on a calendar year basis. Indexation for 1999 or 2000 has not been included. Funding for 2000 has not yet been legislated. Department of Communications, Senator Alston—The answer to the honour- Information Technology and the Arts: able senator’s question is as follows: Cost of News Clipping Service (1)—(4) The annual budget for the Media (Question No. 1284) Monitoring unit in the Department of Communica- tions, Information Technology and the Arts is Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister for approximately $145 000. This includes salaries, Communications, Information Technology and fees for external monitoring of regional media, the Arts, upon notice, on 24 August 1999: copyright fees and materials. (1) What is the annual cost to the department of The clippings are provided to Mr Stephen Smith, news clippings purchased or produced by the Shadow Minister for Communications and the Hon department. Duncan Kerr, Shadow Minister for the Arts. A (2) (a) Are the clippings provided regularly to the copy is provided to Australian Democrats Senator appropriate shadow ministers; and (b) in each Vicki Bourne, who has responsibility for communi- instance, which shadow ministers receive a copy of cations and to Senator Alan Eggleston who Chairs the department’s news clippings. the Legislative Committee on Environment, Com- munications Information, Technology and the Arts. (3) (a) Are they provided to the appropriate Australian Democrats’ spokespersons; and b) in each instance, which spokespersons receive a copy of the department’s news clippings. Department of Industry, Science and Resources: Cost of News Clipping Service (4) Are the department’s clippings routinely provided to other members of Parliament; if so, (Question No. 1291) which members and/or senators and in what capacity are they provided with a copy of the Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister department’s clippings. representing the Minister for Industry, Science Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11515 and Resources, upon notice, on 23 August (2) (a) What are the names of the officers; (b) 1999: what are their employment classifications; and (c) what duties are they assigned, that is, to which (1) What is the annual cost to the department of policy areas or agencies are they allocated responsi- news clippings purchased or produced by the bility. department. (3) What was the total cost to the department of (2) (a) Are the clippings provided regularly to the these officers. appropriate shadow ministers; and (b) in each instance, which shadow ministers receive a copy of Senator Alston—The answer to the honour- the department’s news clippings. able senator’s question is as follows: (3) (a) Are they provided to the appropriate (1) As at 23 August 1999, two departmental Australian Democrats’ spokespersons; and (b) in liaison officers (DLOs) were employed in my each instance, which spokespersons receive a copy office. of the department’s news clippings. (2) (a) (b) (c) Ms Ann Campton, Executive Level (4) Are the department’s clippings routinely 2, responsible for broadcasting, telecommunications provided to other members of Parliament; if so, and Australia Post issues. which members and/or senators and in what Mr Andrew Jackson, Executive Level 1, respon- capacity are they provided with a copy of the sible for administrative liaison relating to all areas department’s clippings. of my portfolio. Senator Minchin—The Minister for Indus- (3) The staff costs to the department for the try, Science and Resources has provided the period 21 October 1998 (being the date on which following answers to the honourable senator’s the second Howard Ministry was sworn in) to 23 August 1999 are estimated to have been $128,000. questions: The Department’s accounting records do not (1) In 1998 the cost to the Department of news separate administration costs incurred by DLOs, as clippings was $127,320, paid to an external media distinct from those incurred by my office. Conse- monitoring service, plus $31,637 for photocopies of quently, it is not possible to advise the amount of the clippings, making a total of $158,957. For the non-salary costs incurred by the DLOs. six months to June 1999 the media monitoring service has cost $86,430 and the photocopying Department of Family and Community $19,923, making a total of $106,353. Services: Departmental Liaison Officers (2) (a) The clippings are provided daily to the (Question No. 1301) appropriate shadow Ministers. Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister for (b) They are: the Shadow Minister for Industry Family and Community Services, upon notice, and Technology and Manager of Opposition on 24 August 1999: Business, The Hon Bob McMullan, MP; the Shadow Minister for Science and Resources, (1) How many departmental liaison officers Martyn Evans, MP; the Shadow Minister for Small (DLOs) are employed in, or seconded to, the office Business and Tourism, Joel Fitzgibbon, MP; and of the Minister as at 23 August 1999. the Shadow Minister for Sport and Youth Affairs (2) (a) What are the names of the DLOs; (b) and Shadow Minister Assisting the Shadow what are their employment classifications; and (c) Minister for Industry and Technology on Informa- what duties are they assigned, that is, to which tion Technology, Senator Kate Lundy. policy areas or agencies are they allocated responsi- (3) No. bility. (4) No. (3) What was the total cost to the department of these officers. Department of Communications, Senator Newman—The answer to this Information Technology and the Arts: question from the honourable senator is: Departmental Liaison Officers (1) As at 23 August 1999, three departmental (Question No. 1299) liaison officers were provided by the Department of Family and Community Services (FaCS). In Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister for addition, the Department of the Prime Minister and Communications, Information Technology and Cabinet (PM&C) provides a DLO to assist me in the Arts, upon notice, on 23 August 1999: my role as Minister Assisting the Prime Minister (1) How many departmental liaison officers are for the Status of Women. employed in, or were seconded to, the Minister’s (2) (a) Kylee Bates, Sue Costello, Ian Sharples Office as at 23 August 1999. are the FaCS DLOs. Jean Mair is the PM&C DLO; 11516 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

(b) the three FaCS DLOS are all FaCS 2 level. Dr Kemp’s Office for the period 21 October Jean Mair is PM&C Band 2; and (c) all FaCS 1998 to 23 April 1999. DLOs deal with matters relating to all policy areas PSMPC: $58, 617.00 and agencies within the Family and Community Services portfolio. Jean Mair deals with matters * This figure includes costs incurred for the relevant to women’s issues. previous DLO, Ms Margaret Varghese and APS Level 6 Officer who was seconded Dr (3) The total cost to FaCS from 21 October 1998 Kemp’s Office for the period 21 October 1998 to 23 August 1999 was $178,924.74. The cost to to 18 August 1999. PM&C was $35,519.49. In addition, FaCS provides each FaCS DLO with a mobile telephone and the Department of Family and Community use of equipment in the office (eg. personal com- Services: Departmental Liaison Officers puter, printer, photocopier and facsimile machine). (Question No. 1323) Department of Education, Training and Youth Affairs: Departmental Liaison Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister for Officers Family and Community Services, representing the Minister for Community Services, upon (Question No. 1306) notice, on 24 August 1999: Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister (1) How many departmental liaison officers representing the Minister for Education, (DLOs) are employed in, or seconded to, the office Training and Youth Affairs, upon notice, on of the Minister as at 23 August 1999. Monday, 23 August 1999: (2) (a) What are the names of the DLOs; (b) (1) How many departmental liaison officers are what are their employment classifications; and (c) employed in, or were seconded to, the Minister’s what duties are they assigned, that is, to which office as at 23 August 1999. policy areas or agencies are they allocated responsi- bility. (2) (a) What are the names of the officers; (b) what are their employment classifications; and (c) (3) What was the total cost to the Department of what duties are they assigned, that is, to which these officers. policy areas or agencies are they allocated responsi- Senator Newman—The answer to the bility. honourable senator’s question is as follows: (3) What was the total cost to the department of these officers. (1) Two. (2) (a) Sharon Ong and Tom Dzaja; (b) Sharon Senator Ellison—The Minister for Educa- Ong is a FaCS 2; Tom Dzaja is a Centrelink 4 and tion, Training and Youth Affairs has provided (c) Sharon Ong deals with matters relating to policy the following answer to the honourable areas and agencies in the FaCS portfolio with the senator’s question: exception of Centrelink. Tom Dzaja deals with matters relating to Centrelink. (1) As at 23 August 1999, there were 3 Depart- mental Liaison Officers (DLO) seconded to Dr (3) The total cost for DLOs in Mr Anthony’s Kemp’s Office. office (and previously in Mr Truss’s office ) for the (2) (a) Cathie Maguire, Heather Dyne and Garry period 21 October 1998 to 23 August 1999 has Smith; (b) Executive Level 2, Executive Level 2 been $131,053.58 including $66,724.94 paid by and Executive Level 1; (c) Liaison between the Centrelink. In addition, the department provides Minister’s Office, the Department of Education, each of these officers with the use of equipment in Training and Youth Affairs (DETYA), the Public the office (eg. personal computer, printer, photo- Service and Merit Protection Commission copier and facsimile machine). Sharon Ong has a (PSMPC), and other Departments in relation to the mobile phone provided by FaCS, Tom Dzaja has Minister’s portfolio responsibilities. a mobile phone provided by Centrelink. (3) The total cost incurred by Departments over Department of Communications, the period 21 October 1998, being the date on Information Technology and the Arts: which the second Howard Ministry was sworn in, Departmental Liaison Officers to 23 August 1999 was: (Question No. 1326) DETYA: $148,566.03 * This figure includes costs incurred for the Senator Robert Ray asked the Minister for previous DLO, Ms Karen Sandercock, an Communications, Information Technology and Executive Level 2 Officer who was seconded the Arts, upon notice, on 23 August 1999: Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11517

(1) How many departmental liaison officers are (b) what was that process; and (c) what was the employed in, or were seconded to, the office of the reason for using a different process. Minister’s Parliamentary Secretary as at 23 August Senator Kemp—The following answer is 1999. provided to the honourable senator’s question: (2) (a) What are the names of the officers; (b) what are their employment classifications; and (c) The program is currently being delivered with the what duties are they assigned, that is, to which majority of the marketing and advertising com- policy areas or agencies are they allocated responsi- pleted. The following answers to the questions are bility. based on expenditure to date: (3) What was the total cost to the department of (1) The total cost (including commission) of the these officers. advertising campaign for The New Tax System Seminar program for the 1999 series of seminars Senator Alston—The answer to the honour- is $841,561. able senator’s question is as follows: (2) The breakdown of the total cost of the (1) As at 23 August 1999, one departmental advertising campaign is: liaison officer (DLO) was employed in the office (a) print advertising $782,383 (commission is of my Parliamentary Secretary. included in this figure, refer to (e) ii) below); (2) (a) Mr Jeremy Irvine (b) APS level 6 (c) The (b) no specific paid electronic advertising; policy areas assigned to the DLO are Office for Government Online, telecommunications consumer (c) $2, 762 for posters, $2,952 for seminar issues and telecommunications carriers’ powers and programs, $21,499 for signs to be used venues; immunities. (d) an advertising agency was used for the (3) The staff costs to the department for the placement of the advertising of The New Tax period 21 October 1998 (being the date on which System Seminar 1999 program but did not charge the second Howard Ministry was sworn in) to 23 a media placement fee for their services; August 1999 are estimated to have been $61,000. (e) i) advertising firm fees $31,265, ii) commis- The Department’s accounting records do not sion $78,238—this is based on 10% of the print separate administration costs incurred by the DLO, advertising costs of $782,383 referred to at (a) as distinct from those incurred by the office of the above; Parliamentary Secretary. Consequently, it is not (f) none; and possible to advise the amount of non-salary costs incurred by the DLO. (g) $700 artwork. (3) (a and b) No consultants were used in the New Tax System Seminars: Advertising development of the advertising program. Costs (4) See answer to (3). (Question No. 1434) New Tax System Seminars: Cost Senator Faulkner asked the Minister (Question No. 1435) representing the Treasurer, upon notice, on 21 September 1999: Senator Faulkner asked the Minister With reference to the 1 068 New Tax System representing the Treasurer, upon notice, on 21 seminars announced by the Australian Tax Office September 1999: on 10 September 1999: With reference to the 1 068 New Tax System (1) What is the total cost of the advertising seminars announced by the Australian Tax Office campaign for these seminars. on 10 September 1999: (2) Of this total, what is the cost for: (a) print (1) What is the total cost of these seminars, advertising; (b) electronic advertising; (c) other excluding advertising/promotion. advertising (please specify); (d) media placement (2) Of this total, what is the cost for: (a) staff; fees; (e) advertising firm fees and commission; (f) (b) venue hire; (c) transport; (d) travel and other research fees; and (g) other (please specify). allowances; (e) consultant fees; and; (f) other (3) (a) What consultants have been contracted to (please specify). work on the advertising/promotional campaign for (3) (a) What consultants have been contracted to these seminars; and (b) how much has been, or is work on these seminars, excluding advertis- expected to be, paid to each of these consultants. ing/promotion; and (b) how much has been, or is (4) Was each of these consultants selected using expected to be, paid to each of these consultants. an open, competitive tendering process; if not: (a) (4) Was each of these consultants selected using which ones were selected using a different process; an open, competitive tendering process; if not: (a) 11518 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 which ones were selected using a different process; Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander (b) what was that process; and (c) what was the Commission: Departmental Decisions reason for using a different process. Reviewed Under the Administrative Senator Kemp—The following answer is Decisions Act provided to the honourable senator’s question: (Question No. 1453) As The New Tax System Seminar Program is currently being delivered, detailed costs cannot be Senator Faulkner asked the Minister for provided in answer to your questions. The budgeted Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Affairs, amounts are supplied for your information. upon notice, on 21 September 1999: (1) The total budgeted amount for The New Tax (1) Since 3 March 1996, how many decisions of System Seminars 1999 program, excluding advertis- the department and all portfolio agencies have been ing, is $5,426,059. the subject of applications for review under the (2) (a) The budgeted amount for staff is Administrative Decisions (Judicial Review) Act $2,175,000. (b) Venue hire and associated services 1977. is budgeted to be $1,148,645. (c&d) The transport, (2) Of these applications, how many related to: travel and accommodation budget for the 1999 (a) agency staffing matters; (b) agency client seminar program is $258,123. (e) Consultant fees matters; or (c) other (please specify general area). are budgeted at $286,000. (f) Other budgeted (3) How many applications: (a) have been: (i) amounts for delivery of The New Tax System finalised, and (ii) withdrawn by the applicant; and Seminars 1999 program are: (i) Venue booking and (b) remain unfinalised. coordination $150,177. (ii) Development of the presentation aid multimedia material $100,000. (iii) (4) (a) What was the cost to the department or Telephones and other communication charges agency of defending each of these actions; and (b) $2,400. (iv) Automated telephone and website what was the quantum of costs where they were registration service for 250,000 registrations will awarded against the Commonwealth, where appro- incur a fee of $880,129. (v) Information kits and priate. handout material—250,000 sets are budgeted to be $200,000. (vi) Video cassettes, for use by remote Senator Herron—The Aboriginal and communities and people unable to attend a semi- Torres Strait Islander Commission has provid- nar—750 sets of 16 industry specific sessions, ed the following information in response to $225,585. the honourable senator’s question: (3) (a) Cosway Pty Ltd. (b) The total fees paid The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Com- to date for this professional consultation are mission and the Office of Indigenous Policy have $30,400. researched those files which appeared to be relevant (4) The consultant was appointed as a result of to matters in which decisions had been made after a select tender process. 3 March 1996 and subsequently challenged.

Basis for Appli- Subject matter Status of applica- Quantum of cation (ADJRA (agency staff- tion (finalised, costs awarded Application num- or common law ing or agency withdrawn or Cost of defending against the re- ber or combination) client or other) unfinalised) application spondent (if any)

528/96 ADJRA Client Finalised $21 None 661/96 ADJRA and Client Finalised $5,907 None s.39B Judiciary Act 794/96 ADJRA and Client Finalised $1,642 None s.39B Judiciary Act 828/96 ADJRA and Client Finalised $6,299 None s.39B Judiciary Act TG6/96 ADJRA and Client Finalised $390 None s.39B Judiciary Act NG669/98 ADJRA and Client Finalised $8,469 Undetermined s.39B Judiciary Act D0017/99 ADJRA Client Unfinalised W60022/99 ADJRA Client Finalised Approx. $15000 None Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11519

Basis for Appli- Subject matter Status of applica- Quantum of cation (ADJRA (agency staff- tion (finalised, costs awarded Application num- or common law ing or agency withdrawn or Cost of defending against the re- ber or combination) client or other) unfinalised) application spondent (if any)

SG19/97 ADJRA Client Finalised $12,606 (includes $2000 cost of SG27/97) SG27/97 ADJRA Client Finalised (See SG19/97) None QG100/96 ADJRA Client Finalised $5,162.90 None QG/166/96 ADJRA Client Finalised $15,475 None 97/2876 ADJRA Client Finalised None None TG6/98 ADJRA Client Finalised $1,248 None WAG179/96 ADJRA Client Finalised $14,629 None QG156/98 ADJRA Client Finalised $23,025 $25,267 99/2834 ADJRA Client Finalised None None SG132/98 ADJRA Client Unfinalised $14,723 Not yet applic- able 99/2796 ADJRA Client Finalised None None QG97/96 ADJRA Client Finalised $22,405 None NG795/96 ADJRA and Client Finalised $10,368.27 None s.39B Judiciary Act

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander (3) How many applications: (a) have been: (i) finalised, and (ii) withdrawn by the applicant; and Commission: Departmental Decisions (b) remain unfinalised. Reviewed Under Common Law (4) What was the cost to the department or (Question No. 1471) agency of defending each of these actions; and (b) Senator Faulkner asked the Minister for what was the quantum of costs where they were awarded against the Commonwealth, where appro- Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Affairs, priate. upon notice, on 21 September 1999. (1) Since 3 March 1996, how many decisions of Senator Herron—The answer to the the department and all portfolio agencies have been honourable senator’s question is follows: the subject of applications for review under the The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commis- common law, including prerogative writs. sion and the Office of Indigenous Policy have (2) Of these applications, how many related to: researched those files which appeared to be relevant (a) agency staffing matters; (b) agency client to matters in which decisions had been made after matters; or (c) other (please specify general area). 3 March 1996 and subsequently challenged.

Basis for Quantum of Application costs (ADJRA or Subject matter awarded common law (agency staffing Status of application against the Application num- or combina- or agency client (finalised, withdrawn Cost of defending respondent ber tion) or other) or unfinalised) application (if any) 528/96 ADJRA Client Finalised $21 None 661/96 ADJRA and Client Finalised $5,907 None s.39B Judi- ciary Act 794/96 ADJRA and Client Finalised $1,642 None s.39B Judi- ciary Act 828/96 ADJRA and Client Finalised $6,299 None s.39B Judi- ciary Act TG6/96 ADJRA and Client Finalised $390 None s.39B Judi- ciary Act NG669/98 ADJRA and Client Finalised $8,469 Undeter- s.39B Judi- mined ciary Act D0017/99 ADJRA Client Unfinalised W60022/99 ADJRA Client Finalised Approx. $15000 None 11520 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Basis for Quantum of Application costs (ADJRA or Subject matter awarded common law (agency staffing Status of application against the Application num- or combina- or agency client (finalised, withdrawn Cost of defending respondent ber tion) or other) or unfinalised) application (if any) SG19/97 ADJRA Client Finalised $12,606 (includes $2000 cost of SG27/97) SG27/97 ADJRA Client Finalised (See SG19/97) None QG100/96 ADJRA Client Finalised $5,162.90 None QG/166/96 ADJRA Client Finalised $15,475 None 97/2876 ADJRA Client Finalised None None TG6/98 ADJRA Client Finalised $1,248 None WAG179/96 ADJRA Client Finalised $14,629 None QG156/98 ADJRA Client Finalised $23,025 $25,267 99/2834 ADJRA Client Finalised None None SG132/98 ADJRA Client Unfinalised $14,723 Not yet applicable 99/2796 ADJRA Client Finalised None None QG97/96 ADJRA Client Finalised $22,405 None NG795/96 ADJRA and Client Finalised $10,368.27 None s.39B Judi- ciary Act

Department of Industry, Science and by the SES officer whose area has jurisdiction over Resources: Freedom of Information the documents in question. An internal review decision on access to documents is made by an (Question No. 1484) officer other than the one who made the initial Senator Faulkner asked the Minister for decision on access. As a general rule, internal Industry, Science and Resources, upon notice, review decisions on access are made at the division head level. The Secretary has issued a Departmen- on 20 September 1999: tal instruction which is designed to ensure that FOI (1) What are the: (a) formal qualifications; (b) requests are processed in a timely manner. The relevant experience; and (c) employment classifica- Department has provided its officers with FOI tion/grade, of each departmental officer who has training and its legal sections coordinate the made initial stage decisions regarding requests Department’s FOI requests and provide advice on under the Freedom of Information Act since 3 the proper handling of those requests. The qualifi- March 1996. cations, experience and employment grades of FOI (2) What are the: (a) formal qualifications; (b) decision makers are not recorded on the relevant experience; and (c) employment classifica- Department’s FOI files. tion/grade, of each departmental officer who has made internal review decisions regarding requests Department of Industry, Science and under the Freedom of Information Act since 3 Resources: Internal Staff Development March 1996. Courses Senator Minchin—The answer to the (Question No. 1502) honourable senator’s question is as follows: Senator Faulkner asked the Minister for I am advised that the sum of resources across the Industry, Science and Resources, upon notice, portfolio required to provide a detailed response to on 20 September 1999: these questions would represent an unwarranted (1) How many internal staff development courses diversion of the resources of the Department and has the department, or any agency in the portfolio, portfolio agencies. Much information about Free- conducted since 3 March 1996. dom of Information caseloads is available publicly in annual reports. The following information (2) What is the cost of internal staff development describes the arrangements for FOI decision-making courses the department, or any agency in the in the Department. portfolio, has conducted since 3 March 1996. Under section 23 of the Act, the Secretary of the (3) How many staff have attended internal staff Department has granted decision-making powers for development courses the department, or any agency FOI matters to various offices within the Depart- in the portfolio, has conducted since 3 March 1996. ment. The authorised decision-makers are either (4) (a) How many internal staff development SES officers or senior legal officers. In most cases, courses conducted by the department, or any the initial decision on access to documents is made agency in the portfolio, since 3 March 1996 have Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11521 contained training on making decisions under the (1) Since 1 June 1999, on how many occasions Freedom of Information Act; and (b) of this num- did the department request a receipt from a staff ber, how many: (i) were specifically focusing on member from one of the following offices who the subject of freedom of information decisions, undertook travel and sought payment of travelling and (ii) how many dealt with the issue amongst allowance at the commercial rate: (a) the Prime others. Minister; (b) the Parliamentary Secretary to Cabi- (5) What is the total cost of the courses in (4). net; (c) the Minister for Transport and Regional Services; (d) the Minister for Regional Services, Senator Minchin—The answer to the Territories and Local Government; (e) the Parlia- honourable senator’s question is as follows: mentary Secretary to the Minister for Transport and I am advised that the level of resources required Regional Services; (f) the Treasurer; (g) the Assist- to answer these questions in their entirety across ant Treasurer; (h) the Minister for Financial Ser- the portfolio would represent an unwarranted vices and Regulation; (i) the Minister for Trade; (j) diversion of the resources of the department and the Minister for Foreign Affairs; (k) the Parlia- portfolio agencies. mentary Secretary to Foreign Affairs; (l) the Minister for the Environment and Heritage; (m) the Department of Industry, Science and Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Resources: External Staff Development Environment and Heritage; (n) the Minister for Courses Communications, Information Technology and the Arts; (o) the Minister for the Arts and the Centena- (Question No. 1520) ry of Federation; (p) the Parliamentary Secretary to Senator Faulkner asked the Minister for the Minister for Communications, Information Industry, Science and Resources, upon notice, Technology and the Arts; (q) the Minister for on 20 September 1999: Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business; (r) the Minister for Employment Services; (1) How many departmental officers have (s) the Minister for Family and Community Ser- attended external staff development courses since vices; (t) the Minister for Community Services; (u) 3 March 1996. the Minister for Defence; (v) the Minister for (2) What is the total cost of the external staff Veterans’ Affairs; (w) the Parliamentary Secretary development courses attended by the officers of the to the Minister for Defence; (x) the Minister for department, or any agency in the portfolio, since 3 Health and Aged Care; (y) the Minister for Aged March 1996. Care; (z) the Minister for Finance and Administra- (3) (a) How many external staff development tion; (aa) the Special Minister of State; (ab) the courses attended by departmental or agency staff Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance since 3 March 1996, have contained training on and Administration; (ac) the Minister for Education, making decisions under the Freedom of Information Training and Youth Affairs; (ad) the Parliamentary Act; and (b) of this number, how many: (i) were Secretary to the Minister for Education, Training specifically focusing on the subject of freedom of and Youth Affairs; (ae) the Minister for Industry, information decisions, and (ii) how many dealt with Science and Resources; (af) the Minister for Sport the issue amongst others. and Tourism; (ag) the Parliamentary Secretary to (4) Of the courses relevant to (3), which agencies the Minister for Industry, Science and Resources; or consultants provided that training. (ah) the Attorney-General; (ai) the Minister for Justice and Customs; (aj) the Minister for Immigra- (5) What is the total cost of the courses in (3). tion and Multicultural Affairs; (ak) the Parlia- Senator Minchin—The answer to the mentary Secretary to the Minister for Immigration honourable senator’s question is as follows: and Multicultural Affairs; (al) the Minister for I am advised that the level of resources required Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry; (am) the to answer these questions in their entirety across Minister for Forestry and Conservation; and (an) the portfolio would represent an unwarranted the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for diversion of the resources of the department and Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. portfolio agencies. (2) On each occasion that a request for a receipt Department of Finance and in support of a travel allowance claim was made: Administration: Requests for Travel (a) what was the basis of the request; and (b) what Allowance Receipts was the result of the request. (Question No. 1630) Senator Ellison—The Minister for Finance Senator O’Brien asked the Minister repre- and Administration has provided the follow- senting the Minister for Finance and Adminis- ing answer to the honourable senator’s ques- tration, upon notice, on 28 September 1999: tion: 11522 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

(1)—(2) The detailed information sought in the response capacity. The National Greenhouse honourable Senator’s question is not readily Strategy refers to Australia’s national circum- available in consolidated form. To collect and stances, the regional diversity existing within assemble such information solely for the purpose Australia, and the need for greenhouse response of answering the honourable Senator’s question measures to be tailored to match that diversity. would be a major task. The practice of successive (5) While a great achievement, the Kyoto governments has been not to authorise the expendi- Protocol left a number of issues essential to its ture of time and money involved in assembling implementation for further negotiation. Australia, such information. like many other countries, will consider ratifying National Greenhouse Strategy the Protocol after these issues have been resolved. Principal among these are: (Question No. 1669) . First, the rules and modalities for the Kyoto Senator Bartlett asked the Minister for the flexibility mechanisms: international emissions Environment and Heritage, upon notice, on 11 trading, the clean development mechanism and October 1999: joint implementation; (1) Does the foreword to the National Green- . Second, important definitional and operational house Strategy state that the Commonwealth, states issues concerning the treatment of sinks; and territories have ‘endorsed’ the strategy and that, . Third, compliance with the Protocol obliga- by endorsing the strategy, jurisdictions have tions; and demonstrated their commitment to an effective national greenhouse strategy. . Fourth, developing country participation. (2) When, and by what means, were these Native Tree Revegetation endorsements secured. (Question No. 1673) (3) Did the Prime Minister correspond with first ministers of jurisdictions in relation to their en- Senator Brown asked the Minister for the dorsement of the strategy; if so, will the Minister Environment and Heritage, upon notice, on 12 table the correspondence in the Senate. October 1999: (4) Has the Government been informed or For each of the past 10 financial years: advised that the endorsement of the strategy by any state or territory is subject to caveats, other than (a) how much Commonwealth money was spent those noted in the text of the strategy; if so, which on tree planting through programs including states and territories have noted or communicated Landcare, salinity programs and Natural Heritage any such caveats. Trust; (5) When will the Government ratify the Kyoto (b) state by state, how many trees and what area Protocol. of vegetation was planted; Senator Hill—The answer to the honour- (c) what proportion of the plantings have been assessed to see whether they survived; able senator’s question is as follows: (d) what proportion have survived; (1) Yes. (e) how much Commonwealth money was spent (2) The Council of Australian Governments on protecting remnant native vegetation; agreed on 7 November 1997 to the process and timetable for finalisation of the National Green- (f) what area of native vegetation was protected; house Strategy. A High Level Group of senior and officials from the Commonwealth, States and (g) state by state, what area of native vegetation Territories established by COAG took forward the was cleared. further development and finalisation of the National Greenhouse Strategy. Premiers and Chief Ministers Senator Hill—The answer to the honour- advised the Prime Minister of their governments’ able senator’s question is as follows: endorsement of the Strategy in the period from July Precise data at the level of detail requested by to November of last year. the honourable senator is not available due to the (3) In the course of finalising and endorsing the range of programs and agencies addressing reveg- National Greenhouse Strategy, the Prime Minister etation over the period in question and the fact that corresponded with first ministers of jurisdictions. tree planting is rarely the sole activity of projects. This correspondence will not be tabled at this time. This makes it difficult to apportion investment (4) In their endorsement of the Strategy a number separately or directly to tree plantings. of jurisdictions noted the differences in State and The following responses provide the best avail- Territory circumstances including their greenhouse able information against each inquiry. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11523

(a) and (e) direct revegetation and remnant protection activity Investment in on-ground revegetation and through Bushcare projects of about 132,500 hec- remnant protection projects across Commonwealth tares. It is estimated that a similar area has been programs, for the period 1989-90 until commence- revegetated and protected under the National ment of the Natural Heritage Trust, is estimated to Landcare Program. Note that these figures are from have been approximately $6.5 million per annum. project reports written prior to January 1999, and This figure covers those programs which are there has been significant activity since then. In broadly comparable with Bushcare, and does not addition, this data comes from the first six months include investment in commercial forestry and farm of what are often three year projects, so the bulk of forestry projects. the outputs are yet to be achieved. There has also been significant revegetation through programs such Since commencement of the Natural Heritage as the Murray-Darling 2001 Initiative, Rivercare, Trust, investment through Bushcare in projects for and the Endangered Species Program. which the primary activity was on-ground action (revegetation, regeneration and remnant protection (c) and (d) for both biodiversity conservation and sustainable No information is available on the survival rates production) was approximately $14.6 million for of vegetation established by pre- Natural Heritage 1997-98 and $26.3 million for 1998-99. There are Trust programs. elements of other programs, including others funded For Natural Heritage Trust funded programs, a under the NHT, which are achieving vegetation proportion of projects has been assessed each year outcomes, but there is insufficient data on those by State Natural Heritage Trust Evaluation Teams, outputs at this stage. Bushcare State Coordinators and Regional (b) and (f) Facilitators and Bushcare Support (Greening Australia) staff. There is no aggregated national For the period 1989-90 to the commencement of output data from these assessments. the Natural Heritage Trust, the estimated total area Whilst it is too early to undertake an assessment directly revegetated or protected through Common- of survival of vegetation established under Natural wealth vegetation initiatives, based on information Heritage Trust programs, methodologies to deter- which can be directly verified, was at least 5,000 mine survival rates are being developed. hectares per annum. (g) Annual rates of decrease in woody vegetation From the commencement of the Natural Heritage per State, determined by the Bureau of Rural Trust in 1997 until January 1999, it is estimated Sciences in their report Land Cover Change 1990- from project progress reports, that there has been 1995, are as follows:

Land Cover Change 1990- 1995 (fire and forest manage- State/Terr. ment excluded) (ha/annum) ACT 1,050 NSW 18,180 NT 3,320 Qld 270,290 SA 3,510 Tas 2,890 Vic 6,930 WA 21,750 Total 327,915

Exploration Licences Is the issue of exploration licences in Common- wealth marine waters a Commonwealth action for (Question No. 1674) the purposes of the Environment Protection (Impact of Proposals) Act; if so, how many licences were Senator Brown asked the Minister for the issued in the 3 years from July 1996 to June 1999, Environment and Heritage, upon notice, on 12 and in each case: (a) what area did the licence October 1999: cover; (b) what activities were permitted under the 11524 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999 licence; and (c) what environmental impact assess- (1) Australia considers the Polisario Front to be ment was undertaken. representative of an important body of West Senator Hill—The answer to the honour- Saharan opinion, but the United Nations-sponsored referendum due to be held in July 2000 is designed able senator’s question is as follows: to clarify the wishes of the population of Western Yes, the issue of offshore petroleum exploration Sahara on the issue of self-determination. permits in Commonwealth marine waters is a Commonwealth action that requires consideration (2) Dealings occur with Polisario on an informal of environmental significance under the Environ- basis in New York, and Australian parliamentarians ment Protection (Impact of Proposals) Act 1974. and officials meet with Polisario Front representa- However, the responsibility for deciding whether tives informally. Since many Polisario representa- the issue of exploration permits under the Petro- tives also hold Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic leum (Submerged Lands) Act 1967 are significant (SADR) positions, Australian Ministers do not actions for which a proponent should therefore be formally receive them, because to do so might be designated lies with the Joint Authorities which presented as Australian acceptance of the SADR as comprise the Minister for Industry, Science and the government of Western Sahara. Resources and the respective State and Northern (3) (a) There was a press report of incidents at Territory Ministers. I therefore suggest that the that time which indicated that a number of demon- honourable senator direct matters pertaining to parts strators were injured. Although it was reported that (a), (b) and (c) of the question to my colleague, the no-one was killed, the article stated that 27 Minister for Industry, Sciences and Resources, who Moroccans were given jail sentences of 10-15 years administers the Petroleum (Submerged Lands) Act for their actions. The Australian Government is not 1967. In relation to part (c) of the question I can aware that the UN has made any formal reference advise that no proponent was designated in relation to the incidents, nor to its knowledge, has any of to the issue of an exploration permit in Common- the major international human rights bodies drawn wealth marine waters between July 1996 and June attention to them. The Australian Government 1999. remains concerned over the human rights situation in the Western Sahara as part of its overall commit- Western Sahara ment to the promotion and protection of human (Question No. 1681) rights internationally. Senator Bourne asked the Minister repre- (b) The Government has made representations to the Moroccan authorities on individual cases of senting the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon alleged human rights abuses in the Western Sahara notice, on 14 October 1999: which have been brought to its attention, including (1) Given that the United Nations (UN) and the through a longstanding arrangement whereby Organisation of African Unity accept that the two Amnesty International "Urgent Action" cases are parties in the conflict in Western Sahara are the considered and, where appropriate, pursued by the Kingdom of Morocco and the Polisario Front, does Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade on behalf the Minister recognise the authority of Polisario to of the Amnesty International Parliamentary Group. represent the Western Sahara people. The Australian Embassy in Paris, which has responsibility for Morocco, has made representa- (2) Does the Minister intend to formally meet tions to the Moroccan authorities on these cases representatives of Polisario, the representative body and will continue to do so where appropriate. for the independence movement in Western Sahara. (4) The Australian Government has no plans to (3) (a) Is the Government aware that, during provide assistance to the Saharawi refugees in September 1999, peaceful demonstrations were Algeria. The Australian aid program focuses on the suppressed in Layoun, the capital of Western humanitarian needs within our immediate region. Sahara and that the UN has verified that Saharawis East Timor, in particular, is currently taking a large were killed, imprisoned or disappeared; and proportion of our humanitarian assistance. (b) Will the Minister make representations to Morocco on this matter. Choepel, Mr Ngawang (4) Will the Government provide any humanitar- (Question No. 1683) ian aid to the 165,000 Saharawi refugees who are Senator Brown asked the Minister repre- living in south west Algeria in harsh conditions. senting the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon Senator Hill—The Minister for Foreign notice, on 19 October 1999: Affairs has provided the following answer in (1) What does the Australian Government know response to the honourable senator’s question: about the whereabouts and circumstances of Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11525

Tibetan musicologist Mr Ngawang Choephel, from terms of reference; and (b) will the terms of Vermont, who was arrested by the Chinese authori- reference be made public; if not, why not. ties in 1995 and sentenced to 18 years gaol for (5) Were members of the reference group paid treason. a fee/honorarium/stipend for their participation; if (2) Is there any extant evidence that the treason so, which members of the group received a fee; if conviction is valid. not, why not. (3) Has Mr Ngawang Choephels plight been (6) For members received a fee: (a) how much raised in any of Australia’s dialogues with China did they receive; (b) how was the fee level set; and on civil rights, or at any other forum; if so, what (c) was the fee paid at a flat rate; if not, was the good came of raising the matter; if not, will the fee paid on a per meeting basis. Government seek information about Mr Ngawang (7) What was the total amount of money paid to Choephels plight. reference group members for their participation. Senator Hill—The Minister for Foreign (8) (a) How many times has the reference group Affairs has provided the following answer to met; (b) in what locations did the meetings take the honourable senator’s question: place; and (c) on what dates. (1) We believe Ngawang Choepel is currently (9) Were the travel expenses for reference group located in the Drapchi prison. members to attend meetings paid by the depart- ment; if not, why not. (2) We have no information on Mr Choepel’s trial. (10) (a) what was the total amount of money spent on travel expenses; (b) what were the individ- (3) The Australian Government has raised ual total payments paid to reference group mem- Ngawang Choepel’s case directly with the Chinese bers; (c) what were the exact travel expenses that government at senior levels and at the annual could be claimed; and (d) at what level were the Human Rights Dialogues in 1997, 1998 and 1999 expenses paid. including expressing concern at the length of his sentence. Our representations have ensured the Senator Ian Macdonald—The Minister for Chinese have been alerted to the international Transport and Regional Services has provided concern about Mr Choepel’s whereabouts and the following answer to the honourable circumstances. We will continue to raise individual senator’s question: human rights cases such as that of Ngawang Choephel on appropriate occasions. (1) (a) The Department compiled a list of appropriately qualified people for the Minister’s Regional Australia Summit consideration. (b) The Minister determined the membership of (Question No. 1701) the group and signed off on their appointment. Senator Mackay asked the Minister repre- (2) (a) A list of the reference group members is senting the Minister for Transport and Re- attached. gional Services, upon notice, on 22 October (b) The members were chosen for their ability to 1999: provide particular perspectives rather than as With reference to the Regional Australia Summit representatives of particular organisations. being held in Canberra from 27 October to 29 (c) They were appointed to provide advice to the October 1999: Minister on the organisation and conduct of the Summit. (1) (a) How was the reference group for the summit selected; and (b) who signed off on their (3) (a) The Reference Group guided the develop- appointment. ment of the program, the commissioning of back- ground papers, the selection of keynote speakers, (2) (a) Who was appointed to the reference provided advice on the list of participants and group; (b) what organisations do they represent; oversaw some of the administrative arrangements and (c) in what capacity were they appointed. for the Summit. (3) (a) What were the exact activities undertaken by the reference group; and (b) did they operate (b) A copy of the group’s Terms of Reference is within a set of guidelines or terms of reference; if attached. so, can a copy of these documents be provided; if (4) Yes, the Reference Group operated within a not, why not. set of Terms of Reference. (4) Did the reference group operate within a set (a) The Terms of Reference were prepared by the of terms of reference; if so: (a) who prepared the Department and approved by the Minister. 11526 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

(b) The Terms of Reference could be made papers that might be delivered, oversee some of the public. administrative arrangements for the Summit and (5) The Chairman was paid a fee. The other document the outcomes from the Summit. members of the reference group were not paid as Draft Terms of Reference: they were receiving salaries from their employers further development of the desired outcomes from and it was not considered appropriate to pay them. the Summit; further development of the Summit (6) (a) The Chairman received a fee of $250 per program; oversight of the preparation of key papers meeting. to be presented at the Summit; providing assistance (b) The fee was set in accordance with Determi- with the nomination of invitees; oversight of nation 3 of 1999 made by the Commonwealth administrative arrangements for the Summit; and Remuneration Tribunal. draw together the outcomes following the Summit. (c) The fee was paid on a per meeting basis. Regional Australia Summit (7) $1,750 has been paid in fees and a further $750 is yet to be paid. (Question No. 1702) (8) (a) The Reference Group met 11 times. Senator Mackay asked the Minister repre- (b) All the meetings took place at Parliament senting the Minister for Transport and Re- House in Canberra. gional Services, upon notice, on 22 October (c) Meetings were held on 27 May 1999, 2 June 1999: 1999, 15 June 1999, 29 June 1999, 21 July 1999, With reference to the Regional Australia Summit 12 August 1999, 20 August 1999, 31 August 1999, being held in Canberra from 27 October to 29 22 September 1999, 15 October 1999 and 26 October 1999: October 1999. (1) (a) Who participated in the summit; and (b) (9) Travel expenses were paid to the Chairman which organisations did they represent. according to the Remuneration Tribunal determina- tion. (2) (a) Who selected the participants; (b) how did (10) (a) The Chairman has been paid $1,470 with they become involved in the summit; and (c) how a further $630 yet to be paid in travel expenses. were they notified of their involvement in the summit. (b), (c) and (d) Travel expenses in relation to one member have not been finalised. Further informa- (3) Was there a process for registration of tion could be provided at a later stage. interest to participate; if so, can details of this process be provided. REGIONAL AUSTRALIA SUMMIT REFER- ENCE GROUP (4) Were participants paid a stipend/fee for Chair participating in the summit; if so: (a) who was paid; and (b) which organisations did they repre- The Rt Hon Ian Sinclair sent; if not, why not. Members (5)For participants receiving a fee: (a) how much Dr Wendy Craik did they receive; (b) how was the fee level set; and Mr Mike Beckingham (c) was the fee paid at a flat rate; if not, was the Mr Mark Bethwaite fee paid on a per day basis. Senator the Hon David Brownhill (6) What was the total amount of money paid to Mr Barry Wakelin MP participants. Ms Jan Hirst Senator Ian Macdonald—The Minister for Ms Liza Albion Transport and Regional Services has provided Ms Sema Varova the following answer to the honourable Ms Prue Regan senator’s question: Regional Summit Reference Group (RSRG) (1) (a) A list of participants is attached. Terms of Reference (b) The attached list also includes organisations. Reference Group A small high level Reference Group will be (2) (a) The Reference Group provided advice to established to guide the development of the Sum- the Minister on suitable participants. mit. (b) and (c) The Minister wrote to invite selected In broad terms, the Reference Group will guide the individuals to participate and they responded to his development of the program, the preparation of key invitation. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11527

(3) The Regional Australia Summit internet site Integra Pty Ltd provided an opportunity for people to register Professor Snow Barlow interest. University of Melbourne (4) Participants were not paid to attend the Mr Kenneth Baston Summit. They were invited to attend because of their particular interest in regional Australia and it Principal would not have been appropriate to pay them. Ellavalla Pastoral (5) Not applicable. Mr Tony Battaglene (6) Not applicable. General Manager Winemakers Federation of Australia REGIONAL AUSTRALIA SUMMIT—LIST OF PARTICIPANTS Mr Roger Beale AM Mr Larry Acton Environment & Heritage President Mr Shaun Beasley Mr Mike Beckingham AgForce Qld Australian Rural Leadership Foundation Ms Judith Adams A/Professor Bob Beeton Australian Healthcare Association (WA) Head of School Mr John Ah Kit MLA University of Queensland Shadow Minister for Regional Development Ms Susan Benedyka Northern Territory Macquarie River Food & Fibre Inc Professor John Allen Mr Paul Bennett University of Nebraska—USA President Senator Lyn Allison Tasmanian Rural Youth Senator for Victoria Ms Janice Besch Minson Dr Margaret Alston Australia Council Associate Director, Centre for Rural Social Re- Dr John Best search Health Consultant Charles Sturt University Diagnosis Pty Ltd Senator The Hon Richard Alston Mr Mark Bethwaite Minister for Communications, Information Technol- ogy & the Arts Deutsche Bank AG Professor Gerry Anderson Cr Mary Binks Mayor Assistant Vice Chancellor Local Government Association of Tasmania University of Ballarat Lt Col Ken Bladen (Rtd) Mr Neil Anderson President—WA Chair Returned & Services League of Australia Rural and Remote Pharmacist Workforce Develop- ment Program Mr Ben Bodna Mr Paul Anderson Immediate Past President Philanthropy Australia Chief Executive Officer Mr Terry Bolger The BHP Co Ltd Kowari Motors Pty Ltd The Hon John Anderson MP Mr Saxon Boston Minister for Transport & Regional Services Ord River Farmers Mr Richard Armstrong Senator The Hon Ron Boswell President Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Trans- Queensland Farmers’ Federation port & Regional Services Mr Michael Ashford Mrs Leith Boully Office of Information and Communications Chair Western Australia Community Advisory Committee of the Murray- Mr Kevin Balm Darling Basin Ministerial Council 11528 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Mrs Kath Brewster Mr Michael Chaney President Chief Executive Officer Council on the Ageing (NSW) Wesfarmers Ltd Mrs Liz Chapman Mr Paul Briggs Rural Plan Consultancy Services First Nations Advantage Credit Union Mr Ray Chappell Mr Greg Brinsmead Company Director and Consultant Principal Professor John Chudleigh Marcus Oldham Farm Management College University of Sydney Ms Jillian Broadbent Mr Frank Cicutto Director Executive Director Reserve Bank of Australia National Australia Bank Ltd Mr Leon Broster Mr Rudolf Cinc SA Rural Counselling Service Inc Murray Darling Association Mr John Cobb Ms Margaret Brown President Chairperson NSW Farmers’ Association Health Consumers of Rural and Remote Australia Mr Everald Compton Senator The Hon David Brownhill Australian Inland Rail Expressway Senator for New South Wales Professor Barry Conyngham The Hon. John Brumby Vice Chancellor Minister for State and Regional Development Southern Cross University Mr Peter Cooke Victoria Director Dr Lexia Bryant AgKnowledge Centre for Rural Health, Monash University Mr Bevan Coote Mr David Buckingham General Manager Executive Director Eastern Australia Airlines Business Council of Australia Mr Stuart Coppock Mr Terry Cahill The Regional Institute Deputy Chairman Mr Wayne Cornish Vice President Mid West Gascoyne Area Consultative Committee National Farmers’ Federation Mr Alex Campbell Mr John Cotter Chair Dr Wendy Craik Land and Water Resources Research & Develop- Executive Director ment Corporation National Farmers’ Federation Cr Nino Cardillo Mr Geoff Crick Councillor Chair Hinchinbrook Shire Council Farm Business Management Committee The Hon Kate Carnell MLA National Farmers’ Federation Chief Minister Mr Alan Cummine ACT National Policy Director Australian Forest Growers Mr Michael Carroll Mr William Cummings Head of Rural & Agribusiness Markets Cairns Chamber of Commerce National Australia Bank Mr Barry Cusack The Hon. Fred Chaney Managing Director National Native Title Tribunal Rio Tinto Ltd Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11529

Ms Kersten Davis The Hon John Fahey MP Uniting Church Frontier Services Minister for Finance and Administration Birdsville Clinic Mr Ian Falk The Hon John Dawkins MLA University of Tasmania Chairman Ms Patricia Feilman Rural Communities Reference Group Executive Secretary South Australia The Ian Potter Foundation Ms Barbara Derham Ms Corallie Ferguson Chair CEO Flinders Region Area Consultative Committee Imparja Television (FRACC) Mr Martin Ferguson MP Mr Gatjil Djerrkura OAM Shadow Minister for Transport & Regional Services Chairman Mr Ron Finemore AO ATSIC Executive Deputy Chair Mr Robert Dobrzynski Finemore Transport Delatite Shire Ms Kathleen Finlayson Mr Christopher Dodds Regional Development Council Australian Council of Social Services Western Australia Mr Ian Donges Ms Sharon Firebrace President Chairman National Farmers’ Federation Indigenous Land Corporation Mrs Nicky Downer Mr Chris Fitzhardinge Chair Department of Commerce & Trade Country Arts SA Western Australia Mr Rob Drake Dr Christine Fletcher Director Northern Australia Research Unit Macquarie Bank Limited Australian National University Ms Anne Dunn Mr Trevor Flugge MI Murren Enterprises Chairman Mr John Dunnet AWB Ltd Editor Cr Deirdre Ford Country Press Australia Deputy Mayor Mr Dennis Eck Cairns City Council Chief Executive Officer Mrs Jennifer Fowler Coles Myer Ltd Community Mental Health Mr Rod Eddington Mr David Fox Executive Chairman Chair Ansett Holdings Ltd Northern Rivers Area Consultative Committee Mr Joseph Elu Mr Lindsay Fox Chairman Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander Commercial Founder Development Corporation Linfox Mr Lance Emerson Dr Lyn Fragar Pharmacy Guild of Australia Director Mr Paul Espie Australian Centre for Agricultural Health & Safety Managing Director Ms Emma Freebairn Pacific Road Group Limited Pharmacist Mr Greg Evans Mr Collin Freeland AO Policy Manager Chairman Australian Gas Association Australian Capital Region Development Council 11530 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Mr George Gardiner Mr Steve Howard Chair Secretary H.G. Gardiner & Associates The Global Foundation Mr Mark Genovese Mr Peter Howarth OAM Executive Manager ’Wombramurra’ Credit Union Foundation Mr Robert Hudson Mr Jock Given Hassall & Associates Pty Ltd Director Mr Bernard Hugonnier Communications Law Centre, University of NSW Director Mr Jeff Gooding Territorial Development Service, OECD France Chief Executive Officer Professor John Humphreys Kimberley Development Commission Head Mr Bob Gordon School of Health & Human Sciences, La Trobe Executive Director University Fuel Ethanol Association of Australia Mr Andrew Hunter Mr Larry Graham MLA Chief Executive Officer Spokesperson for Regional Development TeleTask Western Australia Bishop Eugene Hurley Mr Harry Green Catholic Diocese of Port Pirie National Party of Australia (NSW) Mr Rohan Jeffs Dr Clive Hadfield General Manager Corporate Services Cairns Hospital Woolworths Ltd Mr Greg Hallam Mr Stanley Jeyaraj Executive Director State Manager Local Government Association of Queensland Kids Help Line Miss Juanita Hamparsum Ms Lynne Johnston Hamparsum Investments Pty Ltd Pastoralists & Graziers Association (WA) Mr Peter Handcock Mr Johnny Kahlbetzer General Manager Managing Director Dubbo City Development Corporation Twynam Group Mr Brian Hanley The Hon Dr David Kemp MP CEO Minister for Education, Training & Youth Affairs Gresham Rabo Management Ltd Mr Peter Kenyon Mr Ian Hastings IDEAS Group Mallee Rural Counselling Service Mr Max Kershaw Ms Jennifer Hawkins General Manager Regional Womens Advisory Council Gunnedah Shire Council Mr Roger Henning Dr Sue Kilpatrick Network Communications Pty Ltd Centre for Research and Learning in Regional Mr Rene Hidding Australia Deputy Opposition Leader Mr Peter King Tasmania Chairman Mr Howard Hobbs MLA Australian Heritage Commission Shadow Minister for Local Government & Planning Mr Vernon Knight Queensland Mallee Family Care The Hon Paul Holloway MLC Mr Chris Kopittke Deputy Leader of the Opposition Director South Australia The Future Capital Corporation Pty Ltd Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11531

Mr Graham Larcombe Dr John Madden National Economics Pty Ltd President Mr Ian Laurance Australia New Zealand Regional Science Associa- Chairman tion Gascoyne Murchison Strategy Mr Patrick Maher Mr John Lawrence Challenge Disability Services Chair Mr David Malloch National Rural Health Alliance Australian Business The Hon Paul Lennon MHA Miss Jennifer Marshall Deputy Premier Mr Brian McCarthy Minister for Infrastructure, Energy & Resources Managing Director Tasmania Rural Press Ltd Mrs Grace Ley Mr Don McDonald Health Service Manager/Director Nursing ’Devoncourt’ Northam Hospital The Hon Peter McGauran MP Mr Thomas Lindsey Minister for the Arts and the Centenary of Feder- Director of Economic Growth ation Warrnambool City Council Ms Cathy McGowan Mr Bruce Lloyd President Chairman Regional Women’s Advisory Council Australian Landcare Council Mr Cam McKellar Mr Kenneth Lloyd Dr Donald McKenzie Chief Executive Officer Ms Elaine McKeon Country Arts SA Regional Women’s Advisory Council Mr Mike Logan Mr Kevin McMenemy Director President Oakville Pastoral Co. Western Australia Farmers’ Federation Mr John Lush Mrs Megan McNicholl President President Grains Council of Australia Isolated Children’s Parents’ Association Mr John Lyle Dr David McSwan NSW Farmers Director Ms Susie Lyle Rural Education Research and Development Centre Gunnedah Nursing Home Inc Mr Bruce Meagher Ms Helen Lynch Head of Corporate Affairs Non Executive Director Austar United Communications Ltd Coles Myer, Southcorp and Westpac Mr Bob Merkenhof Mr Gerry MacDonald Managing Director National Executive Director Leighton Contractors Royal Flying Doctor Service Cr Ian Mickel Mrs Lindsay MacDonald President Member Western Australian Municipal Association Regional Telecommunications Infrastructure Fund Ms Sue Middleton Board Regional Women’s Advisory Council Senator The Hon Ian Macdonald Dr David Mildenhall Minister for Regional Services, Territories & Local President Government Rural Doctors Association of Australia Senator Sue Mackay Mrs Patricia Mitchell Shadow Minister for Regional Services, Territories Chair & Local Government Queensland Arts Council 11532 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Cr Wal Mitchell Mr Ian Nightingale Barwon Darling Alliance Executive Officer Mr Kym Mobbs Eyre Regional Development Board Central Queensland Area Consultative Committee Ms Moira O’Brien Mr Justin Mohamed Regional Women’s Advisory Council Chief Executive Officer Mr Peter O’Clery Rumbulara Aboriginal Cooperative Ltd Cooperative Research Centre for Sustainable Tourism Cr Mike Montgomery Ms Heather O’Connor Mayor Philanthropy Australia Moree Plains Shire Council Mr Bernie O’Donnell Mr John Moore Pro Vice-Chancellor National President Charles Sturt University St Vincent de Paul Mr Stephen O’Donnell Dr Sue Morey Executive General Manager Health Consultant MIM Holdings Ltd Morey Australia Pty Ltd Ms Kerryn Oliver Ms Diane Morgan Principal Volunteering Australia Northam High School Dr David Morgan Mr Dennis O’Neill Executive Director Chief Executive Officer Westpac Banking Corporation Australian Council for Infrastructure Development Ms Helen Morris The Hon Michael Palmer MLA Executive Officer Minister for Transport and Infrastructure Develop- Sidney Myer Fund ment Mrs Jane Mouritz Northern Territory Hyden Progress Association Mr Vince Paparo Ms Janet Moxey General Manager Administration Manager Moree Plains Shire Council Mr Mukesh Parekh Moxey Dairies General Manager, Channel Planning Ms Maureen Murphy Commonwealth Bank of Australia General Manager—Sales and Business Develop- ment Mr Haydn Park AAPT SAT-TEL National Australia Bank Mr Dennis Mutton Mr Mark Paterson Chief Executive Officer CEO Australian Chamber of Commerce & Industry Department of Primary Industries and Resources Mr Graham Paynter South Australia Chair Mr Baillieu Myer Rural Training Council of Australia Chairman Mr Douglas Peel Sidney Myer Fund South East Atlantic Salmon Professor Robert Napier Mr Dale Perkins Associate Professor President Orange Agricultural College South Australian Farmers’ Federation Mr Mark Needham Mrs Barbara Phillips National Farmers’ Federation ANZ Bank Mr Rod Nettle Ms Johanna Plante Chief Executive Officer Chief Executive Officer Australian Local Government Association Australian Communications Industry Forum Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11533

Mr Lachlan Polkinghorne Dr Derek Scrafton National Landcare Facilitator Professor of Transport Policy & Planning Mr Peter Pulley University of South Australia Chief Executive Mr Nigel Scullion Tamworth Development Corporation Chairman Mr John Quantrill Australian Seafood Industry Council Program Director Dr Margaret Seares Australian Rural Leadership Program Chair Mr Ted Quinlan MLA Australia Council Shadow Minister for Treasury, Racing & Gaming, Ms Lyn Seymour Sport & Recreation Seymours Department Store ACT The Hon John Sharp Mr Michael Radda Corporate Advisor National Chief Executive Linfox DIDS Furniture Industry Association of Australia Ms Helen Sheil Mrs Elspeth Radford Centre for Rural Communities, Monash University Regional Women’s Advisory Council Mr John Short Mr George Rance Westpac Banking Corporation Tasmanian Farmers & Graziers Association Mr Chris Sidoti Mrs Janice Richardson Commissioner Regional Women’s Advisory Council Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission Mr George Riedel Ms Rosie Simpson McKinsey & Co Telstra Professor Celia Romm Mr Edward Sims Central Queensland University Chief Executive Officer Mr Joe Ross Growzone Development Network Cr John Ross Mr Ian Sinclair Senior Vice President Chair, Regional Australia Summit Reference Group Australian Local Government Association Cr John Smith Ms Fran Rowe Mayor NSW Rural Assistance Authority Whyalla City Council Mr David Rowell Mrs Margaret Smith Tasmanian Employment Advisory Council National President Ms Jennifer Russell Country Women’s Association of Australia Regional Women’s Advisory Council A/Professor Tony Sorensen Mr Peter Ryan Assistant Professor Chief Executive Officer University of New England Goulburn Ovens Insitute of TAFE The Hon George Souris MP Mr Bernard Salt Leader of the National Party Director New South Wales KPMG Consulting Mr Richard Spinks Ms Eleanor Scholz Telstra Networking the Nation Professor David Spottiswood Mr Tim Scholz Director Australian Landcare Council Curtin University of Technology Ms Ulrike Schuermann Ms Crystal Stark Executive Director Crows Nest Resource Association Australian Youth Foundation Mr Richard Stayner The Hon Bruce Scott MP Executive Director Minister for Veterans’ Affairs Rural Development Centre 11534 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Mr Ken Steinke Mr Bev Walters APN News & Media Limited Primary Industry Bank of Australia (PIBA) Professor Brian Stoddart Mr Jeffrey Watson University of New England Booringa Shire Council Mr Adam Suckling Ms Barbara Wellesley Group Manager Regulatory Affairs National Project Director Optus Communications Pty Ltd Good Beginnings National Parenting Project Mr Greg Swain Mr Richard Wells Group Manager, Regional Programs Executive Director Telstra Minerals Council of Australia Mr Simon Swan Mr Ian Westerland Information Technology & Telecommunications Chair Manager Dunmunkle Health Services Rail Services Australia Mr Michael White Mr Ziggy Switkowski Chairman Chief Executive Officer Telecentre Telstra Corporation Ltd Ms Belinda Wilkes Mr John Tanner Chair Mr Peter Taylor MIA Council of Horticultural Associations ATSIC Dr George Wilson Ms Genevieve Timmons Director Executive Officer Australian Wildlife Tours Lance Reichstein Foundation Mr Douglas Winter Ms Robin Toohey Chairperson National Council of Women Australia Inc Warrumbungle Rural Community Program Inc Mr Fred Tritton MBE Mr Geoffrey Wise Mayor Department of Land & Water Conservation Richmond Shire Council New South Wales The Hon Warren Truss MP The Hon Harry Woods MP Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry Minister for Local Government, Regional Develop- Mr Richard Uden ment & Rural Affairs General Manager Regional Financial Services New South Wales ANZ Banking Group Ltd Mr Philip Young Ms Dianne van Meegen Managing Director Directions In Management Tourism Council of Australia Cr Margaret Vigants Ms Kerry Yu President Policy Officer Local Government Association of the Northern Municipal Association of Victoria Territory Ms Asa Wahlquist Duke Energy: Environmental Assessment The Australian (Question No. 1705) Mr Barry Wakelin MP Senator Brown asked the Minister for the Federal Member for Grey Environment and Heritage, upon notice, on 22 Dr John Wakerman October 1999: Director (1) Has an agreement been made between the Centre for Remote Health governments of Victoria, Tasmania and the Mr Peter Walsh Commonwealth about the environmental assessment of the Duke Energy proposal for a gas pipeline to President Tasmania; if so: (a) what are the terms of the Victorian Farmers’ Federation agreement; and (b) can a copy be provided; if not Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11535

(a) is such an agreement being, or to be, negotiated; (3) (a) The transfer of Deal Island from AMSA and (b) when. to the Tasmanian Government was not contingent on the creation of a marine reserve in the surround- (2) (a) Under what conditions was Deal Island ing waters. handed over to the Tasmania Government; and (b) is there a written agreement; if so: (i) what are the (b) The Commonwealth understands that the terms of the agreement, and (ii) can a copy be waters surrounding Deal Island are currently being provided. evaluated for protection as a marine reserve by the Tasmanian Government. Further information about (3) (a) Was the transfer of Deal Island to the this process should be sought from the Tasmanian Tasmanian Government contingent on a marine Government. reserve being created in the surrounding waters; and (b) has any progress been made towards (4) No funds were provided by the Common- creating a reserve. wealth to the Tasmanian Government for managing Deal Island in association with the transfer agree- (4) (a) How much money did the Commonwealth ment. give Tasmania for managing Deal Island; and (b) for what specific purposes and under what condi- (5) Several actions by the Commonwealth could tions. trigger environmental assessment of the proposal under the Environment Protection (Impact of (5) What actions by the Commonwealth would Proposals) Act 1974. These include the potential require environmental assessment under the Envi- need for approval in terms of the Government’s ronment Protection (Impact of Proposals) Act in foreign investment policy, and the provision of a relation to the Duke Energy gas pipeline proposals. pipeline licence for the Bass Strait section of the proposed pipeline. Environmental assessment of the Senator Hill—The answer to the honour- proposal in this case has been triggered by the decision of the Minister for Industry, Science and able senator’s question is as follows: Resources to grant the project Major Projects Facilitation Status. (1) The Tasmanian Natural Gas Project was designated under the Environment Protection (Impact of Proposals) Act 1974 by the Minister for Industry, Science and Resources, Senator the Hon Australian Flags: Members of Parliament Nick Minchin, on 21 May 1999. Several aspects of Requests the project proposal have evolved since designation. Preliminary discussions regarding the environmental (Question No. 1712) assessment of the project have been held between the relevant government authorities at officer level. Senator Faulkner asked the Special However, no formal agreement has yet been made Minister of State, upon notice, on 2 Novem- regarding cooperative assessment arrangements. It ber 1999: is expected that a formal agreement about coopera- tive environmental assessment arrangements will be (1) How many requests by each individual reached once the details of the project are finalised. member and senator have been received for Aus- tralian flags in the 1998-99 financial year. (2) (a) The conditions relating to the transfer of Deal Island from the Australian Maritime Safety (2) Were any of these requests turned down; if Authority (AMSA) to the Tasmanian Government so: (a) on what basis; and (b) in relation to which were defined in a Heads of Agreement dated 9 requests. April 1998. (3) What has been the cost to the Commonwealth (b) Yes. (i) The terms of the agreement essential- of the provision of these flags. ly provided for the transfer of the island to the State for the sum of $1 with the State agreeing to conserve and manage the property under terms Senator Ellison—The answer to the hon- prepared in consultation with the Australian Heri- ourable senator’s question is as follows: tage Commission. (ii) An extract of the agreement has been provided to the honourable senator. (1) Requests for Australian flags by each individ- Further copies are available from the Senate Table ual senator and member in 1998-99 were as Office. follows: 11536 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

SENATORS

No. of No. of Name Rqsts Name Rqsts Abetz, The Hon Eric 1 Hogg, John 1 Allison, Lyn 2 Hutchins, Steve 0 Alston, The Hon Richard 0 Kemp, The Hon Rod 0 Bartlett, Andrew 1 Knowles, Susan 0 Bishop, Mark 0 Lees, Meg 0 Bolkus, The Hon Nick 0 Lightfoot, Ross 5 Boswell, The Hon Ronald 1 Lundy, Kate 3 Bourne, Vicki 0 Macdonald, The Hon Ian 2 Brown, Bob 0 Macdonald, Sandy 4 Brownhill, The Hon David 3 Mackay, Sue 0 Calvert, Paul 2 McGauran, Julian 2 Campbell, George 1 McKiernan, Jim 0 Campbell, The Hon Ian 1 Minchin, The Hon Nick 0 Carr, Kim 0 Murphy, Shayne 3 Chapman, Grant 3 Murray, Andrew 1 Collins, Jacinta 0 Newman, The Hon Jocelyn 4 Conroy, Stephen 0 O’Brien, Kerry 0 Cook, The Hon Peter 3 O’Chee, Bill 3 Coonan, Helen 0 Parer, The Hon Warwick 1 Cooney, Barney 0 Patterson, The Hon Kay 3 Crane, Winston 3 Payne, Marise 1 Crossin, Trish 1 Quirke, John 10 Crowley, The Hon Rosemary 0 Ray, Robert 0 Denman, Kay 0 Reid, The Hon Margaret 2 Eggleston, Alan 1 Reynolds, The Hon Margaret 2 Ellison, The Hon Chris 4 Schacht, The Hon Chris 3 Evans, Chris 2 Sherry, The Hon Nick 1 Faulkner, The Hon John 1 Stott Despoja, Natasha 0 Ferguson, Alan 0 Synon, Karen 1 Ferris, Jeannie 0 Tambling, The Hon Grant 2 Forshaw, Michael 0 Tierney, John 1 Gibbs, Brenda 1 Troeth, The Hon Judith 6 Gibson, The Hon Brian 1 Vanstone, The Hon Amanda 3 Harradine, Brian 2 Watson, John 1 Heffernan, The Hon Bill 3 West, Sue 1 Herron, The Hon John 1 Woodley, John 0 Hill, The Hon Robert 0 Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11537

MEMBERS

No. of No. of Name Rqsts Name Rqsts Abbott, The Hon Tony 3 Lawler, Mr Tony 8 Adams, The Hon Dick 1 Lawrence, The Hon Dr Carmen 3 Albanese, Mr Anthony 1 Lee, The Hon Michael 3 Anderson, The Hon John 6 Lieberman, The Hon Louis 2 Andren, Mr Peter 6 Lindsay, Mr Peter 7 Andrew, The Hon Neil 4 Livermore, Ms Kirsten 7 Andrews, Mr Kevin 4 Lloyd, Mr Jim 1 Anthony, The Hon Larry 5 Macfarlane, Mr Ian 1 Bailey, Ms Fran 5 Macklin, Ms Jenny 8 Baird, The Hon Bruce 3 Marek, Mr Paul 1 Baldwin, The Hon Peter 2 Martin, The Hon Stephen 3 Baldwin, Mr Robert 1 May, Mrs Margaret 2 Barresi, Mr Phillip 2 McArthur, Mr Stewart 3 Bartlett, Mr Kerry 4 McClelland, Mr Robert 4 Beazley, The Hon Kim 2 McDougall, Mr Graeme 1 Bevis, The Hon Arch 3 McFarlane, Ms Jann 2 Billson, Mr Bruce 4 McGauran, The Hon Peter 6 Bishop, The Hon Bronwyn 4 McLachlan, The Hon Ian 1 Bishop, Ms Julie 2 McLeay, The Hon Leo 1 Brereton, The Hon Laurie 1 McMullan, The Hon Bob 4 Broadbent, Mr Russell 2 Melham, Mr Daryl 6 Brough, Mr Mal 4 Miles, The Hon Chris 2 Brown, The Hon Bob 1 Moore, The Hon John 1 Burke, Ms Anna 3 Morris, Mr Allan 6 Cadman, The Hon Alan 4 Morris, The Hon Peter 1 Cameron, Mr Ross 2 Mossfield, Mr Frank 2 Campbell, Mr Graeme 2 Moylan, The Hon Judi 1 Causley, The Hon Ian 6 Murphy, Mr John 3 Charles, Mr Bob 3 Mutch, Mr Stephen 2 Cobb, Mr Michael 3 Nairn, Mr Gary 5 Costello, The Hon Peter 2 Nehl, Mr Garry 1 Cox, Mr David 6 Nelson, Dr Brendan 4 Crean, The Hon Simon 2 Neville, Mr Paul 5 Crosio, The Hon Janice 2 Nugent, Mr Peter 6 Danby, Mr Michael 3 O’Byrne, Ms Michelle 3 Dargavel, Mr Steve 1 O’Connor, Mr Gavan 1 Downer, The Hon Alexander 5 O’Keefe, The Hon Neil 4 Draper, Mrs Trish 4 Plibersek, Ms Tanya 2 Edwards, The Hon Graham 2 Price, The Hon Roger 3 Ellis, Ms Annette 6 Prosser, The Hon Geoffrey 5 Elson, Mrs Kay 6 Pyne, Mr Christopher 2 Emerson, Dr Craig 4 Quick, Mr Harry 1 Entsch, The Hon Warren 5 Randall, Mr Don 2 Evans, Mr Martyn 2 Reid, The Hon Bruce 2 Evans, The Hon Gareth 1 Reith, The Hon Peter 5 Fahey, The Hon John 0 Ripoll, Mr Bernie 2 Ferguson, Mr Laurie 3 Rocher, Mr Allan 1 Ferguson, Mr Martin 1 Ronaldson, The Hon Michael 1 11538 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

No. of No. of Name Rqsts Name Rqsts Filing, Mr Paul 1 Roxon, Ms Nicola 1 Fischer, The Hon Tim 2 Rudd, Mr Kevin 4 Fitzgibbon, Mr Joel 7 Ruddock, The Hon Phillip 4 Forrest, Mr John 5 Sawford, Mr Rodney 1 Gallus, Mrs Christine 0 Schultz, Mr Alby 4 Gambaro, Ms Teresa 4 Sciacca, The Hon Con 3 Gash, Mrs Joanna 8 Scott, The Hon Bruce 6 Georgiou, Mr Petro 5 Secker, Mr Patrick 2 Gerick, Ms Jane 2 Sercombe, Mr Bob 3 Gibbons, Mr Stephen 4 Sidebottom, Mr Sid 4 Gillard, Ms Julia 5 Sinclair, The Rt Hon Ian 1 Grace, Mrs Elizabeth 1 Slipper, The Hon Peter 8 Griffin, Mr Alan 4 Smith, Mr Stephen 2 Haase, Mr Barry 5 Smith, Mr Tony 1 Hall, Ms Jill 6 Smith, The Hon Warwick 2 Halverson, The Hon Robert 4 Snowdon, The Hon Warren 4 Hanson, Ms Pauline 1 Somlay, The Hon Alexander 5 Hardgrave, Mr Gary 3 Southcott, Dr Andrew 3 Hatton, Mr Michael 2 St Clair, Mr Stuart 3 Hawker, Mr David 3 Stone, The Hon Dr Sharman 3 Hicks, Mr Noel 2 Sullivan, The Hon Kathy 1 Hoare, Ms Kelly 4 Swan, Mr Wayne 1 Hockey, The Hon Joe 3 Tanner, Mr Lindsay 3 Holding, The Hon Clyde 1 Taylor, Mr Bill 1 Hollis, Mr Colin 1 Theophanous, The Hon Dr Andrew 2 Horne, Mr Robert 8 Thompson, Mr Cameron 4 Howard, The Hon John 2 Thomson, The Hon Andrew 3 Hull, Mrs Kay 2 Thomson, Mr Kelvin 2 Irwin, Mrs Julia 1 Truss, The Hon Warren 1 Jeanes, Ms Susan 1 Tuckey, The Hon Wilson 5 Jenkins, Mr Harry 6 Vaile, The Hon Mark 8 Johnston, Mrs Ricky 1 Vale, Mrs Danna 6 Jones, The Hon Barry 6 Wakelin, Mr Barry 5 Jull, The Hon David 3 Washer, Dr Mal 2 Katter, The Hon Robert 2 Wilkie, Mr Kim 2 Kelly, Mrs De-Anne 1 Williams, The Hon Daryl 2 Kelly, The Hon Jackie 3 Wilton, Mr Gregory 4 Kemp, The Hon Dr David 3 Wooldridge, The Hon Dr Michael 2 Kernot, Ms Cheryl 2 Worth, The Hon Trish 4 Kerr, The Hon Duncan 2 Zahra, Mr Christian 3 Latham, Mr Mark 1 Zammit, Mr Paul 1

(2) No requests were turned down. (3) The cost to the Commonwealth for the provision of these flags for the 1998-99 financial year was $499 036.80. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11539

Attorney-General’s Department: Cost of advice obtained from the Attorney-General’s Legal Advice Department, in the 1998-99 financial year. (Question No. 1727) (2) What has been the total cost to the Depart- ment, and each agency in the portfolio, in the 1998- Senator Faulkner asked the Minister 99 financial year of legal advice obtained by the representing the Attorney-General, upon Department from other sources. notice, on 2 November 1999: Senator Vanstone—The Attorney-General (1) What has been the total cost to the Depart- has provided the following answer to the ment, and each agency in the portfolio, of legal honourable senator’s question:

(2) Legal advice (1) Legal advice obtained obtained from Department/Agency from the Department other sources Attorney-General’s Department* $5,971,208.88 $0.00 Administrative Appeals Tribunal $12,953.00 $9,196.00 Australian Bureau of Criminal Intelligence $5,349.00 $3,337.50 Australian Customs Service $4,728,594.00 $1,307,141.00 Australian Federal Police $594,551.00 $295,021.00 Australian Government Solicitor $0.00 $0.00 Australian Institute of Criminology $0.00 $1,731.50 Australian Institute of Police Management $0.00 $0.00 Australian Security Intelligence Organisation $21,618.00 $122,994.00 AUSTRAC $25,000.00 $0.00 Copyright Tribunal $7,978.00 $0.00 Criminology Research Council $0.00 $745.00 Director of Public Prosecutions $2,311.00 $29,023.00 Family Court of Australia $0.00 $299,360.30 Federal Court of Australia $27,263.60 $15,958.23 High Court of Australia $1,795.00 $9,910.00 Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Com- $15,593.30 $10,975.95 mission Australian Law Reform Commission $14,211.00 $0.00 National Crime Authority $152,082.00 $225,638.00 National Native Title Tribunal $36,080.00 $21,675.00 Office of Film and Literature Classification $93,821.75 $0.00 Office of Parliamentary Counsel $1,964.00 $0.00

$11 712 373.53 $2,352,706.48 * Fees paid to the Australian Government Solicitor, which has been administratively separate from the Attorney-General’s Department since July 1998 Department of Industry, Science and ‘as a dollar amount, and as a percentage of the Resources: Salaries department’s total outlay on salaries, what was the cost in the 1996-97, 1997-98 and 1998-99 financial years of: (a) staff training;(b) consultants; and (c) (Question No. 1744) performance pay’. Senator Faulkner asked all portfolio Senator Minchin—The answer to the Ministers, including the Minister for Industry, honourable senator’s question is as follows: Science and Resources, upon notice, on 2 The amounts relating to the questions asked are November 1999: included in the following tables. 11540 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

1998/99 $’000 % Total Salaries Expense 107,417 Staff Training 2,294 2.1 Consultants 14,561 13.6 Performance Pay 68 0.0

1997/98 $’000 % Total Salaries Expense 68,758 Staff Training 1,684 2.4 Consultants 12,807 18.6 Performance Pay 104 0.0

1996/97 $’000 % Total Salaries Expense 62,156 Staff Training 1,326 2.1 Consultants 8,484 13.6 Performance Pay 80 0.0

It should be noted that the figures provided are Attorney-General’s Department: Salaries for the Department of Industry, Science and Resources (DISR) only in line with the question (Question No. 1745) asked by the Senator. Senator Faulkner asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon The information is provided from the published notice, on 2 November 1999: figures as per the annual report at the end of each As a dollar amount, and as a percentage of the year requested and for the structure of the Depart- Department’s total outlay on salaries, what was the ment as it stood at that time. cost in the 1996-97, 1997-98 and 1998-99 financial years of (a) staff training; (b) consultants; and (c) The response excludes agencies considered to be performance pay. prescribed agencies (Intellectual Property Australia (IP) and The Australian Geological Survey Organi- Senator Vanstone—The Attorney-General sation (AGSO)) under the Financial Management has provided the following answer to the and Accountability (FMA) Act 1997. honourable senator’s question:

1996-97 1997-98 1998-99 (a) Staff trainingas a $3,530,7262.09% $2,079,5111.29% $2 502 4222.39% percentage of total salaries (b) Consultantsas a $8,837,5885.23% $5,217,2063.23% $2 988 7242.85% percentage of total salaries (c) Performance payas $330,3910.20% $296,9290.18% nil(not calculated a percentage of yet) total salaries Total salaries $169,120,850 $161,634,770 $104 878 000 (i) Australian Government Solicitor (AGS) AGS expenditure is included in the 1998-99 expenditure is included in all items for the 1996-97 financial year. and 1997-98 financial years, as the AGS was part (ii) AUSCRIPT is not included in any of the of the Department for these years. However, no figures. It was sold in June 1998. Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11541

(iii) Training and Consultants expenditure was As a dollar amount, and as a percentage of the obtained from the Annual Reports. department’s total outlay on salaries, what was the (iv) Performance pay is the amount payable in cost in 1996-97, 1997-98 and 1998-99 financial each financial year (ie not cash payments). years of: (a) staff training; (b) consultants; and (c) performance pay. (v) Salaries have been obtained from the Annual Reports, with adjustments to exclude AGS in 1998- 99 and AUSCRIPT in all years. Senator Herron—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission: Salaries The table below details the Commission’s (Question No. 1749) expenditure for Administrative Consultancies, Training & Performance Pay for 1996/97, 1997/98 Senator Faulkner asked the Minister for & 1998/99. It also provides the expenditure for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Affairs, each of these items as a percentage of the Com- upon notice, on 2 November 1999: mission’s total salary outlay.

Administrative Consultancies Training Performance Pay* $% $ % $ % 1996/97 4,924,055 6.81 1,273,182 1.76 91,830 0.13

1997/98 6,026,186 8.36 1,998,291 2.77 118,119 0.16

1998/99 6,326,098 8.80 1,523,712 2.12 100,373 0.14 * These amounts relate to the year as indicated but were paid in the following year. Prime Minister’s Sydney Office: Tenders radio station; if so: (a) which radio stations were for Radio Studio consulted; (b) what was the nature of those consul- tations or discussions; (c) who undertook those (Question No. 1750) consultations or discussions on behalf of the Prime Senator O’Brien asked the Special Minister; and (d) who undertook those consultations Minister of State, upon notice, on 2 Novem- or discussions on behalf of the radio stations. ber 1999: Senator Ellison—The answer to the hon- (1) Has a radio studio been constructed in the ourable senator’s question is as follows: Prime Minister’s office at 70 Phillip Street, Sydney; if so: (a) was the contract the subject of a tender (1)—(6) I am advised that a radio studio has not process; and (b) who managed the tender process. been constructed in the Prime Minister’s Office at (2) (a) When were tenders called; (b) how many 70 Phillip Street, Sydney. The facility to which the tenders were received; (c) who was the successful question relates is presumably the media room that tenderer; and (d) what was the contracted price for was set up during the week ending 4 September the work. 1998 in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Offices at 70 Phillip Street, Sydney, which is on a different (3) Was there any variation between the contract floor to the Prime Minister’s Office. I am advised price and the final price; if so: (a) what was the that it would not be accurate to describe the facility size of the price overrun; and (b) what was the as a studio, since it consists of a normal office basis of the price overrun. equipped with a broadcast quality telecommunica- (4) Did the Commonwealth meet the full cost of tions line and portable audio broadcasting equip- constructing the facility. ment. This equipment can be connected to the line (5) Did the proposal to construct the studio come to enable a person in the room to give radio from the Prime Minister’s office or the department; interviews as arranged with radio stations. if not, who proposed that the studio be constructed. The lease cost of the line is $143 per month, (6) Was the construction of the radio studio the which is paid by the Department of Finance and subject of any discussions or consultations with any Administration. 11542 SENATE Wednesday, 8 December 1999

Most of the current equipment dates back to case the need for the Allowance is kept under October 1995, when it was purchased as a replace- review. ment for older equipment dating back into the (d) Language Proficiency Allowance does not 1980s. The purchase cost in October 1995 was vary with seniority. The officer currently working $3,328. I am advised that the current and original in East Timor receives $2,515 per year in Language equipment was used by the two previous Prime Proficiency Allowance. Ministers to participate in radio interviews from either the Lodge or the Prime Minister’s office in East Timor: Military Personnel Parliament House. Allowances When the current equipment was set up in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Offices in September (Question No. 1752) 1998, the General Manager of the Ministerial and Senator O’Brien asked the Minister repre- Parliamentary Services Group, Department of Finance and Administration wrote to Ministers and senting the Minister Assisting the Minister for Shadow Ministers informing them of the media Defence, upon notice, on 3 November 1999: room’s availability and advising them of the (1) What allowances are paid to military person- booking procedure to make use of this facility. nel currently engaged in peacekeeping activities in East Timor. East Timor: Allowances to Departmental Officers (2) Do the above payments vary with rank; if so, what is the range of these allowances. (Question No. 1751) Senator Newman—The answer to this Senator O’Brien asked the Minister for question from the honourable senator is: Foreign Affairs, upon notice, on 3 November 1999: (1) The allowances and benefits paid to military personnel currently serving in East Timor are (1) What allowances are paid to departmental outlined below. personnel currently working in East Timor. (a) The Deployment Allowance payable for (2) Do the above payments vary with seniority; service in East Timor is $57.83 per day. Other if so, what is the range of these allowances. allowances such as Field, Seagoing and Hard Lying Senator Hill—The Minister for Foreign Allowance may also be payable depending on the Affairs has provided the following answer to nature of the members’ service. the honourable senator’s question: (b) To preserve the integrity of these allowances, According to records held by the Department of the East Timor Peace Enforcement Allowance Foreign Affairs and Trade, the answer to the (ETPEA) is structured so that it embraces the Honourable Member’s question as follows: amounts payable for Deployment, Field, Seagoing and Hard Lying Allowances yet it provides a ‘top (1) Departmental personnel currently working in up’ to a total of all allowances to $125 per day. East Timor receive Overseas Living Allowance, That is the quantum of the ETPEA varies according Difficult Post Allowance and Settling-in Allowance. to the total of other allowances payable but caps One officer receives Language Proficiency Allow- the maximum to $125 per day. ETPEA is payable ance. for each day or part of a day a member is within (2) (a) Overseas Living Allowance varies de- the Area of Operations. pending on the salary of the officer and the cumu- (c) All salary and allowances paid to Australian lative length of overseas service. Departmental Defence Force (ADF) personnel for service in East personnel currently working in East Timor receive Timor are exempt from income tax. between $19,860 and $28,910 per year in Overseas Living Allowance. (d) The Minister for Defence has declared service in East Timor as ‘warlike’, for the purposes (b) Difficult Post Allowance does not vary with of subsection 5C(1) of the Veterans’ Entitlement seniority. Departmental personnel currently working Act 1986. The following lists those provisions for in East Timor receive $19,214 per year in Difficult which personnel in East Timor on warlike service Post Allowance. will be eligible. (c) Settling-in Allowance varies depending on the seniority of the officer. Departmental personnel Benefits currently working in East Timor receive between ADF personnel in East Timor have dual eligibili- $48 to $53 per day. Normally Settling-in Allow- ty with coverage under the Safety, Rehabilitation ance is paid for up to six weeks until an officer and Compensation Act 1988 and the Veterans’ finds permanent accommodation. Payments beyond Entitlements Act 1986. Benefits include access to six weeks are granted where necessary, in which severe injury adjustment, superannuation and Wednesday, 8 December 1999 SENATE 11543 compensation for loss of capacity to remain in the mental, and occupational threats different to those ADF. involved in peacetime service in Australia. The Under the Veterans’ Entitlements Act 1986 they effects of some of these threats may not be readily are entitled to disability pensions for injury or apparent on their return to Australia. disease caused by that service and lifetime medical The Government is adopting a strategy, to be treatment for any such disability. The determination delivered by the Departments of Defence and of the casual connection is on the more generous Veterans’ Affairs, to enable the Department of standard of proof applicable to operational service. Veterans’ Affairs to provide early treatment of The Statements of Principles of the Repatriation veterans suffering from acute symptoms but Medical Authority apply to all claims. difficult to diagnose conditions. This will allow any There is a general and universal rule that com- veterans to obtain acute care for the symptoms of pensation under both schemes are matched against medical and psychiatric conditions that might not each other to achieve the best outcome but avoiding be able to be diagnosed within a reasonable time a doubling of benefits. by the medical community. Dependants’ Benefits Vietnam Veterans Counselling Service Should any of our personnel lose their lives a The Department will also provide free access to widow/er would be eligible for the full benefits of treatment for a number of conditions, including a widow/er’s pension, including health cover, and post traumatic stress disorder. Members of financial support and full health cover for depend- INTERFET and their dependants will also have ant children through the Veterans’ Children Educa- access to the services provided by the Vietnam tion Scheme (VCES). There are also VCES ben- Veterans Counselling Service. efits, but not health cover, for those dependants Commemoration whose veteran parent may become entitled to Any death on active service will be recorded on Special Rate of EDA. the Roll of Honour at the Australian War Memori- Service Pension al. Commemoration of the sacrifice made would Members of the ADF International Force in East also be available from the Office of Australian War Timor (INTERFET) will have eligibility for a Graves. service pension in case of invalidity or later at age (e) Personnel serving in East Timor will also 60 subject to normal means testing provisions. attract an entitlement under the Defence Home Health issues + Access to treatment for difficult to Owner Scheme. diagnose illnesses (f) All members will accrue War Service Leave On 5 July 1999, I issued a media release con- of 1.5 days for each completed month of service in cerning ADF personnel involved in deployments East Timor. overseas. The members of INTERFET are poten- (2) Apart from salary, the above allowances do tially exposed to a range of operational, environ- not vary with rank.