Oral History Interview with Howardena Pindell, 2012 Dec. 1-4
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Oral history interview with Howardena Pindell, 2012 Dec. 1-4 Contact Information Reference Department Archives of American Art Smithsonian Institution Washington. D.C. 20560 www.aaa.si.edu/askus Transcript Preface The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Howardena Pindell on December 1, 2012. The interview took place at the home of Howardena Pindell in New York City, and was conducted by Judith O. Richards for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. Howardena Pindell has reviewed the transcript. Her corrections and emendations appear below in brackets with initials. This transcript has been lightly edited for readability by the Archives of American Art. The reader should bear in mind that they are reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose. Interview JUDITH RICHARDS: This is Judith Richards, interviewing Howardena Pindell on December 1, 2012, at her home in New York City on Riverside Drive, for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution, disk one. Howardena, as we've discussed, we're going to begin where a previous interview for the archives left off. That interview was on July 10, 1972. [Laughs.] So casting way back to 1972, I wanted to, first of all, ask some basic questions. HOWARDENA PINDELL: Mm-hmm [Affirmative.] JUDITH RICHARDS: Where were you living in 1972? Had you moved into Westbeth by then? HOWARDENA PINDELL: All right— JUDITH RICHARDS: Or were you living in— HOWARDENA PINDELL: —I was in Westbeth. JUDITH RICHARDS: And when did you move in there? Were you one of the first tenants? HOWARDENA PINDELL: One of the first tenants, yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: That opened in '70 or '71? HOWARDENA PINDELL: I don't remember. I think it might have been more '70. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm [Affirmative.] HOWARDENA PINDELL: But I really don't remember. I was— JUDITH RICHARDS: How did you end up wanting to live there? HOWARDENA PINDELL: Well, at the time I was trying to get my work done in an apartment. I had a roommate, and it was right around the corner, actually from Westbeth. It was the Cezanne on Jane Street. JUDITH RICHARDS: Oh, I know that building. HOWARDENA PINDELL: Yes, yes. I was living there, and working for the museum and I mean, I don't remember the application process, but I was able to get in with a studio. But they kind of— JUDITH RICHARDS: You mean a living space, plus a studio in a separate part of the building? HOWARDENA PINDELL: Yes, which wasn't what they had promised. They generally promised that you would have your working and living space together. So what they did was, for people who basically had less than they were supposed to have, they had a building that was right next to them, and they used that as a studio building. You had to share a studio, and it was kind of dilapidated. You know, temporary walls, maybe up to eight feet or so. And then chicken wire, you know, it was very— JUDITH RICHARDS: Chicken wire where? HOWARDENA PINDELL: I think it was—I think the chicken wire was along the top of the wall. In other words, you got some ventilation from whatever poisonous [laughs] material was coming from one studio to another. You could—I think the door was padlocked, but I don't remember. The person I shared it with was Harriet Korman's brother. JUDITH RICHARDS: What was his name? HOWARDENA PINDELL: I don't remember, I'm afraid. JUDITH RICHARDS: Korman— HOWARDENA PINDELL: Korman, the— JUDITH RICHARDS: Harriet Korman's brother. HOWARDENA PINDELL: Yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: The painter. HOWARDENA PINDELL: Yes. And that's when I first started using the spray. I would spray through templates I made to have little circles. I would, you know, spray the dots and layer them— JUDITH RICHARDS: Yes. HOWARDENA PINDELL: —on unprimed canvas. Now, I was basically trained as a figurative painter— JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm [Affirmative.] HOWARDENA PINDELL: And my works became more unrealistic [Laughs.]. Whatever the word would be— JUDITH RICHARDS: More abstract? HOWARDENA PINDELL: —or more abstract, yes, after graduate school, because with the job I didn't have, you know, daylight. When I was finished with work, it was getting dark. JUDITH RICHARDS: How long were you in that separate studio—how long did you have your studio in that separate space from your living space in Westbeth? HOWARDENA PINDELL: I think it was about four years. JUDITH RICHARDS: And how long did you stay in Westbeth as a residence? HOWARDENA PINDELL: Well, technically I was in Westbeth about four—three and a half to four years. JUDITH RICHARDS: So this—all the time you were living in Westbeth, you had a separate studio. HOWARDENA PINDELL: A separate studio next—it was attached to the building. It was a—it's now being used as, I think, a health club. But no, it was kind of a little ramshackle. And, I mean, you had—it was pretty quiet. I don't remember there being a lot of people in there working. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm [Affirmative.] HOWARDENA PINDELL: Occasionally, when I'd work, Harriet's brother would come in and just be there at the same time. JUDITH RICHARDS: In 1972, did you—I know you were working at MoMA [Museum of Modern Art, New York, NY], and I think you talked about that a bit in the previous interview, and part of the A.I.R. Gallery. HOWARDENA PINDELL: Yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you feel that you were part of the art world? HOWARDENA PINDELL: I'm not sure how I felt. I was from Philadelphia, and the art world was, like, news to me. I wasn't, you know, I—some of my classmates at Yale [were –HP] already trying to get a loft while they were at Yale, and make connections. And Philadelphia was pretty provincial. So I think on one hand, I mean it was a good lesson to have a job where I could constantly see really great art. But I really—I felt on one hand, here I am in a semi-curatorial position at the beginning. I mean, it was just an exhibition assistant, that's what it was called — JUDITH RICHARDS: At MoMA— HOWARDENA PINDELL: Yes. And then I worked my way up to associate. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm [Affirmative.] HOWARDENA PINDELL: A lot of people were really mad at me for having that job [in 1979. –HP] JUDITH RICHARDS: People? What people? HOWARDENA PINDELL: Oh— JUDITH RICHARDS: Artists, you mean? HOWARDENA PINDELL: Artists, art critics— JUDITH RICHARDS: You were on the other side of the fence, so to speak. HOWARDENA PINDELL: Yes. I would be seen as the sheep in wolf's clothing. Or the wolf in sheep's clothing. [Laughs.] I don't know if Robert Storr, who's an artist ran into the same thing, but there was a lot going on in terms of protesting, and— JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm [Affirmative.] Maybe that was a few years later. No? HOWARDENA PINDELL: It was—well, no. I started working there in 1967. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yes. HOWARDENA PINDELL: And it was when Carl Andre and Hans Haacke were picketing them, and there was another group called GAG— JUDITH RICHARDS: G-A-G? G-A-G-E? No, G-A-G. HOWARDENA PINDELL: It was G-A—G-A-G, I think. Yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm [Affirmative.] Do you know what that acronym stood for? HOWARDENA PINDELL: I have no idea. JUDITH RICHARDS: The "A" must have been "Artists." [Laughs.] HOWARDENA PINDELL: Oh, they were. Yes. Definitely they were artists [Laughs.] And some of them were coming into the galleries, and I guess—I just—I vaguely remember that. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yes. You were able to maintain your career and your work as an artist to a remarkable degree considering you were working full-time. HOWARDENA PINDELL: Yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: And in fact, that year, '72, you got a grant from the NEA [National Endowment for the Arts]. HOWARDENA PINDELL: Yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: Which was a tremendous accomplishment. HOWARDENA PINDELL: Yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: What kind of impact did that grant have on you? HOWARDENA PINDELL: Oh, I just—oh well, I was really running out of money. [Laughs.] I mean, the Modern [MoMA] pays very poorly, and art materials are, and can be, very expensive. I don't know how to answer that. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, it was so—you're answering it in the sense of it was important in terms of the financial part of it— HOWARDENA PINDELL: Yes. And it also gave me recognition as an artist for [others –HP] were angry that I was there. See, I ran into so many— [Side conversation.] HOWARDENA PINDELL: Okay, okay. Oh, how to explain it. Now there were black women groups, but I was in Philadelphia, so we didn't—they were all from Harlem or Brooklyn. I think one was called ["Where We At." –HP] JUDITH RICHARDS: What was it called? HOWARDENA PINDELL: YEC? ["Where We At" –HP], something like that. [There was also the Spiral Group with Emma Amos and Romare Bearden, Emma was the only woman. –HP] And "Where We At," and there was, like, a lot of animosity, because I wasn't really from that group, or those groups. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you—I'm sorry to interrupt you—did you seek out the job at the museum and stay there because you loved being at the museum and doing that job? HOWARDENA PINDELL: Well, that has many different sides to it.