Wednesday Volume 556 9 January 2013 No. 93

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 9 January 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 295 9 JANUARY 2013 296

Angus Robertson: Everyone will have noticed that the House of Commons Secretary of State did not answer the question. I asked him whether he would confirm that the UK Government charge for the promotion of Scotch whisky internationally. Wednesday 9 January 2013 Apparently, the Foreign Office does charge—£3,000 a time to Scottish Development International to promote The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Scotch whisky at international events. That is utterly ridiculous. What is he doing about it and when is it going to stop? PRAYERS Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman chooses to ignore the fact that, thanks to the UK Government, we [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] have our network of offices across the whole world, and our embassy network is second to none—certainly when compared with what an independent Scotland would have. Scotch whisky is in a much stronger place as a Oral Answers to Questions result of Scotland’s being part of the United Kingdom than it would be if we were independent.

Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) SCOTLAND (LD): Does the Secretary of State recognise how important the energy industry in north-east Scotland is to driving export potential for Scotland? We have built a strong The Secretary of State was asked— home base for skills and technology, honed in the North sea, and that is a base for great export potential to Scottish Business Overseas provinces around the world.

1. Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): What Michael Moore: I pay tribute, as I have in the past, to steps Ministers in his Department are taking to promote my hon. Friend’s significant work in this area. He is an Scottish business overseas. [135622] undoubted champion of the oil and gas sector, not just in north-east Scotland but across the whole UK. He is The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): right to point out the sector’s potential and will be The Government have taken a range of actions to promote aware that I met the Brazilian ambassador and Brazilian Scottish businesses overseas, including the appointment oil and gas interests in Aberdeen a few months ago. I of Brian Wilson as a UK business ambassador. I have look forward to returning to Brazil to focus on oil and also held recent discussions with the Canadian Trade gas issues in the next few weeks. Minister and with business leaders in Canada and the USA. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): I go back to the question of Scotch whisky, which Mr Amess: How many Scottish business leaders has accounts for 25% of all UK food and drink exports, yet the Secretary of State met who believe that the Scottish is held back by various tariff barriers around the world— trading position will be improved if Scotland leaves the most notably in India, where there is a tariff of 150%. United Kingdom? Will the Secretary of State set out what action the Government are taking to help whisky industry export Michael Moore: No Scottish business leader has ever growth in other countries? put that point to me, possibly because they recognise the strength of Scotland’s being in the United Kingdom Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman is right to and the fact that there are 162 UK Trade & Investment highlight the importance of the whisky sector, not least offices backed up by 270 consulates across the world. to large chunks of Scotland; it is not just concentrated around the distilleries. We are working hard with Scotch Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Last year, the Scotch whisky interests to ensure that we work within Europe whisky industry was worth more than £4.2 billion; it is to break down the barriers in India and elsewhere. one of Scotland’s and the UK’s biggest exporting industries. There is a level of support for the Scotch whisky industry Can the Secretary of State confirm that the UK that it could not hope to have in an independent Scotland. Government charge for its promotion internationally? How much do they charge and why? Fuel Duty Michael Moore: I join the hon. Gentleman in welcoming the success of the Scotch whisky industry, which is a 2. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): What effect huge part of the overall success of Scotland’s food and cancelling the fuel duty rise planned for January 2013 drink sector and goes alongside other significant economic will have on motorists in Scotland. [135623] areas such as financial services, energy and the like, which are so critical to Scotland’s exporting potential. I The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland do not want to put any of that at risk; that is why I think (David Mundell): Cancelling the fuel duty rise planned that Scotland’s being part of an international network for January will help owners of the 2.7 million motor of embassies, consulates and UKTI offices is the best vehicles in Scotland, saving a typical driver £40 a year way forward. and a haulier £1,200 a year. 297 Oral Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 298

Bob Blackman: Does my right hon. Friend not agree Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): that cancelling Labour’s planned tax increases on fuel Has the Minister looked into whether these reductions, will save the average Scottish motorist more than £600 or lack of increases, have been passed on to motorists in during the life of the coalition Government? Scotland? Is he aware that in Kennington road in London one can buy petrol at 129.9p? Besides the fact that there David Mundell: I agree that the deferral of Labour’s is a 5p differential between the price in London and the planned duty rise in April this year will mean that fuel price in my constituency, it is now more expensive to will be 13p a litre cheaper than it would have been under buy petrol next to Grangemouth, where petrol is produced a Labour Government. for Scotland, than in the Kennington road in London. Is the Minister doing anything to make sure that motorists are not being ripped off by those selling the fuel? Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- op): I welcome the Government’s listening to our call to stop the rise. However, what discussion has the Minister David Mundell: The price of fuel at different petrol had with the Scottish Government about what assistance stations in different communities has been a matter of can be given to small independent petrol retailers, long-term concern, and that is why the OFT is conducting particularly in rural areas, to ensure that people living an inquiry into it. In my previous answer, I indicated in those areas, and not just those who live in urban that the results of that inquiry will be available in areas, are able to take advantage of decent pricing? January, and they will make very interesting reading.

David Mundell: The hon. Lady makes an important Scottish Independence (Use of Sterling) point. At the end of this month I will meet fuel distributors and MPs from rural areas, and she is very welcome to join that meeting to discuss fuel prices and fuel distribution 3. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): What in rural areas. discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues and Ministers in the Scottish Government on the continued Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I am delighted use of sterling in an independent Scotland. [135624] that the Government have cancelled Labour’s fuel duty escalator and cut fuel duty by 1p on the mainland and The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): 6p on the islands. Will the Minister support the call to The United Kingdom Government are undertaking a lobby the European Union to extend the island fuel programme of work to inform the debate ahead of the duty discount to remote parts of the mainland such as referendum. This involves looking at a range of issues mainland Argyll? including the importance of sterling to all parts of the United Kingdom. There have been no discussions with the Scottish Government about the use of sterling by an David Mundell: Indeed. My hon. Friend will have independent Scotland. noted that in the mid-term review the coalition Government have undertaken to examine the possibility of extending the 5p reduction to areas of the mainland that are David Mowat: The decision to use sterling after separation similar to island communities. means that the Bank of England will be the bank of last resort and the lender of last resort to Scotland. To avoid a repetition of what happened in the eurozone, the UK Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) residual Government must have an oversight role in (SNP): The cut in fuel duty through the rural fuel Scottish spending plans. Has this been sought, and on derogation has been very welcome in my constituency. I what time scale will it happen? remember asking Labour to do that when in power, and it refused. When will it be extended to Skye, Lochaber, Argyll and Wester Ross—areas through which my Michael Moore: There have been no such discussions. constituents pass on the way home and on the way back The important point is that sterling has served Scotland to the mainland? and the whole of the UK well for 300 years. We have seen in the eurozone the risk of having a formal monetary union without a fiscal union. A fiscally independent David Mundell: As I said in my answer to my hon. Scotland would create real complications in that regard. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), in All this would have to be negotiated after the referendum the mid-term review the coalition Government have vote, and it would take some persuading for people in undertaken to examine exactly that possibility. the rest of the UK to take on the role that the Scottish National party wishes for it. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): The Government have done their bit in cutting fuel duty at the pumps. Will my Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The Minister right hon. Friend lobby the oil companies to take on knows very well that the Scottish Government intend their responsibility in this respect, because when that Scotland should continue to use sterling after international oil prices fall, prices still remain high at independence, and as sterling is a fully convertible and the pumps? floating currency there is precisely nothing to stop that. While it makes far more sense to have a formal union, David Mundell: Indeed. I am sure that my hon. Friend does he not agree that a stability pact based around welcomes the fact that there is an Office of Fair Trading debt and deficit levels is perfectly sensible but can in no inquiry into fuel prices, and we very much look forward way be portrayed as a foreign currency running Scotland’s to seeing the outcome of that in January. economy? 299 Oral Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 300

Michael Moore: First, I am sure that the whole House In-work Benefits will join me in welcoming the hon. Gentleman back to his place. Although we do not always agree with all his 4. Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and points and arguments, we are absolutely delighted with Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): How many people in Scotland his contribution. We are glad to see him in good health will be affected by the Government’s plan to limit the and wish him all the best. uprating of in-work benefits to 1%. [135625] Should Scotland vote to become independent in the referendum—I do not believe that it will—the use of 9. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): How many sterling would be a matter for negotiation. The reason people in Scotland will be affected by the Government’s for the Bank of England’s credibility as the lender of plan to limit the uprating of in-work benefits to 1%. last resort at present is that we have a single, central [135630] fiscal authority and the UK taxpayer stands behind it. To complicate that would require negotiation with the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland rest of the UK, which would have to consider its (David Mundell): Yesterday the Department for Work interests. We cannot have a one-sided wish list; we have and Pensions published an impact assessment for the to recognise that there will be negotiation. Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill, which states that about 30% of all households will be affected by the measures contained in the Bill. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Is not the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) and, in Gregg McClymont: I thank the Minister for that fact, the Secretary of State wrong on this? If there were answer. Even after changes to tax allowances, a single-earner an independent Scotland, I assume that it would want, household with children in my constituency will be mistakenly, to apply to join the European Union, so £534 a year worse off by April 2015. With that priority would it not then be required to accept the euro? in mind, does the Minister still believe that the Government should go ahead with their priority of a £2,000 a week tax cut for millionaires? Michael Moore: There are many ways in the which the SNP and the hon. Member for Dundee East are David Mundell: What I believe is that the Government completely wrong—I agree with the hon. Member for should continue to work to sort out the mess in the Wellingborough (Mr Bone) on that. He makes an important economy that the hon. Gentleman’s Labour Government point that, amid all the SNP’s turmoil over its position left behind. The measures announced yesterday will on Europe, it has never set out how it would negotiate save £5 billion and he and his colleagues have not given the opt-out from the critical central requirement to join any answers as to where they would find such savings if the euro. they did not implement those changes.

Ann McKechin: One in five working families in Scotland [135634] Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): Last 13. who rely on tax credits will see a cut in their real income year, on 5 December, I took part in a Westminster Hall as a result of these changes. Many of them rely on debate in which the Under-Secretary said that he had low-paid, temporary and part-time jobs when, in fact, commissioned a report into why the separatist-led Dundee they want permanent, full-time jobs. What steps will the city council was the worst-performing local authority in Minister take in 2013 to tackle the scourge of under- Scotland with regard to the Work programme. I have employment in Scotland? contacted his office several times since, but he has yet to get back to me. On 19 December, he said that I would get a letter with more details, but I have yet to receive it. David Mundell: The Secretary of State will work with When will the report be published? the Scottish Government and stakeholders in Scotland to set up an employability forum, which will look at the two Governments and all interested parties in Scotland Mr Speaker: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman working together to ensure that we get more people into wanted to inquire about the continued use of sterling in full-time employment. an independent Scotland. 14. [135635] Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Does the Minister agree that, for better or worse, the Michael Moore: I am not sure how the Work programme Scottish economy is part of the UK economy, and that would be affected by a different currency or the currency the economy of our whole country will not improve arrangements after independence, should that be the unless and until we bring public spending under control? way we go. My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary would be delighted to meet the hon. Member for Dundee David Mundell: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. West (Jim McGovern) as soon as possible to discuss the The benefits issue is an example of where, simply to important issue that he has raised. We will make sure curry favour with the electorate, the SNP Scottish that that happens. Government are making promises that they could not possibly keep in an independent Scotland.

Mr Speaker: It may be that the hon. Member for Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): Will the Dundee West really wanted to come in on question 4 Minister tell the House how many members of the and that he got ahead of himself. I do not know, but it is armed forces in Scotland will see their incomes cut as a done and I am sure that he is grateful. result of last night’s vote? 301 Oral Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 302

David Mundell: Last night’s vote was about ensuring David Mundell: Although I share the hon. Gentleman’s that we have a sustainable welfare system. The hon. concern about the use of food banks and the fact that Lady’s answer on all these issues is more borrowing, there are vulnerable people in crisis situations, I do not more spending and more debt. She cannot say how she accept the pretence that food banks have come into would fund the rises in benefit for which she voted. existence since this Government came to power. That is simply not true. There were food banks under Labour; Margaret Curran: What a disappointing answer. The it is simply that they were not advertised in jobcentres. answer is 4,000 members of the armed forces. There might be a Liberal Democrat leading the Scotland Lindsay Roy: What message does the Minister have Office, but Scots can see that this Government are just for the increasing number of people in my constituency the same old Tories. In 2010, the Department told us who are being forced to go to food banks to feed their that it had absolutely no desire to see people losing their families? What will he do to alleviate that situation? jobs or being in worse circumstances than they were in before. Will the Minister explain why the Government David Mundell: I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman’s are failing the test that they set themselves? concern because he instigated a useful Westminster Hall David Mundell: What the people of Scotland know is debate on this matter. The Government will continue to that it is the same old Labour: there is no apology for do all that we can to help and support the vulnerable in the mess that it left the economy in and its only proposal his constituency and elsewhere. is more spending, more borrowing and more debt. Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Two years ago, the Secretary of State said about the Question 5, Mr Speaker. Government’s plans that “the horrible truth is that across the country everyone is going to Mr Speaker: No, not number 5. The hon. Gentleman have to make a contribution”. must be patient. I am coming to him. I am saving him The horrible truth of life in Scotland under his Government, up. He is worth saving. however, is that a food bank in my constituency has Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): It experienced a father walking a 15-mile round trip for a will come as no surprise to the Minister to learn that I bag of food to feed his family. Is that an appropriate opposed the cap on in-work benefits last night because contribution while the Government give a £2,000 a it will hammer thousands of families in Scotland who week tax cut to millionaires? are trying to bring up children while working hard in low-paid jobs. However, does he share my surprise that David Mundell: I have already indicated that the some senior MPs, including members of the last Labour Government are always concerned about those who Government, who left his Government with an almighty need to use food banks in any circumstances, but I will mess in the public finances, did not even turn up to vote not take any lectures from the hon. Gentleman and the last night? Labour party on millionaires when they want to give them child benefit. David Mundell: Nothing that SNP Members say or do surprises me. The SNP’s position is totally hypocritical. Superfast Broadband The Scottish Government are asking nurses and NHS workers to take a 1% pay rise, yet they want benefits to rise by more than that. 6. Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): What recent discussions his Department has had on the Food Banks provision of superfast broadband in Scotland. [135627]

5. Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland How many people in Scotland have used food banks in (David Mundell): The UK Government have allocated a the last 12 months. [135626] £100 million investment for rural broadband projects in Scotland. It is the responsibility of the Scottish Government 12. Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): How many to deliver on that. Scotland Office officials keep in close people in Scotland have used food banks in the last six and regular contact with Broadband Delivery UK and months. [135633] Department for Culture, Media and Sport colleagues overseeing the roll-out of all broadband projects in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland UK. (David Mundell): Jobcentre Plus operates a food bank referral service. However, the Government do not hold information on the number of people seeking assistance Pauline Latham: In the Minister’s discussions with from food banks. Scottish Government Ministers, have they told him what progress they are making towards implementing Mr Donohoe: We are in 2013 and not 1813, are we superfast broadband access? not? The need for food banks this year in Scotland is an abominable reflection on society. There is even a food David Mundell: It is clear that people throughout bank in Prestwick, which is one of the most salubrious Scotland want broadband access implemented as soon parts of my constituency. According to the Trussell as possible, particularly in rural areas. We will work Trust, 15% of the people who use that food bank are in closely with the Scottish Government to ensure that employment. What an indictment that is of the they deliver on the undertakings that they have given on Government. the £100 million that they have received. 303 Oral Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 304

Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): Although I recognise the important role that the Scottish Against a difficult economic backdrop, the autumn Government play in the provision of broadband in statement set out a range of measures to protect Scotland’s rural areas—[Interruption.] I thought those cheers were economy, to help equip Scottish businesses to compete for me. The Minister is fully aware that in areas such as in the global race and deliver growth, and to ensure that his and mine, small and medium-sized enterprises depend businesses and households in Scotland are treated fairly. upon good connectivity. What is his Department doing to ensure that the Scottish Government are delivering? Karl McCartney: Would my right hon. Friend confirm that one disastrous consequence of any hypothetical David Mundell: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that independent Scotland would be a disjointed transport we will hold the Scottish Government to account for system? Although my Lincoln constituency might benefit that investment. Although the UK Government have from more capacity on the east coast line, does the funded investment in the cities—in Edinburgh, Aberdeen Minister agree that many people in Scotland would not and Perth—we want the Scottish Government to deliver be happy to see direct rail services on the line from for Dumfries and Galloway and equivalent rural areas London to Edinburgh and beyond curtailed in any way? throughout Scotland. [Interruption.] Michael Moore: My hon. Friend makes an important Mr Speaker: Order. I appeal for a bit of order. There point about the importance of keeping Scotland within are now far too many very noisy private conversations the United Kingdom, to the benefit not just of Scotland taking place. Let us hear Sir Malcolm Bruce. but the whole United Kingdom.

Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I thank the UK Gemma Doyle: The Government said that they would Government for the support they have given to Aberdeen get the deficit down, balance the books fairly and get city’s bid under the small cities broadband fund, and for people back to work. However, the deficit is billions of their contribution along with the Scottish Government, pounds higher this year than it was last year, one in five the city of Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire to the expansion working families is having its tax credits slashed, and of broadband. May I urge the Minister to recognise that long-term unemployment is rising faster in Scotland although we want superfast broadband in the cities, we than in the rest of the UK. Is the Secretary of State also need access in rural areas at sufficient speeds to happy to be part of a Government who are failing all enable businesses to flourish rather than forcing people their own tests? to migrate to cities? Michael Moore: The deficit has come down by a David Mundell: I can advise the right hon. Gentleman quarter, and the hon. Lady should acknowledge that that I have met Aberdeenshire council to discuss exactly the Government are clearing up the mess that Labour that issue. Although superfast broadband is welcome in left behind. We will take absolutely no lessons from the Aberdeen, we want it rolled out into Aberdeenshire as hon. Lady or her party. We have cut income tax for the well. lowest earners: they did not. We have restored the earnings link to pensions: they refused to. We have Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): The use of superfast helped millions of Scottish motorists during difficult broadband is of course one effective way to promote times: they were planning to do the opposite. We will the identity of our country. Will the Minister welcome take no lessons from Labour on how to manage the to Parliament today the Ulster-Scots Agency? It is economy. promoting the links between Ulster and Scotland, of which the Secretary of State is a wonderful example as a born Ulsterman who is now serving Scotland. Will the PRIME MINISTER Minister use superfast broadband to continue to promote our wonderful culture and shared Ulster and Unionist heritage? The Prime Minister was asked—

David Mundell: The Secretary of State is a wonderful Engagements example of many things, and the answer is yes. [Interruption.] Q1. [135522] Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 9 Mr Speaker: Order. There is now far too much noise. January. I am sure the House will want to hear Mr Karl McCartney. The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning Autumn Statement I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and in addition to my duties in this House I shall have 7. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): What assessment further such meetings later today. his Department has made of the effect of policies announced in the autumn statement 2012 on Scotland. Karl McCartney: May I wish you, Mr Speaker, the [135628] Prime Minister and the rest of the House a prosperous, positive and happy new year? 11. Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): Does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister agree What assessment he has made of the effect on Scotland that if public servants are having a 1% pay rise, it is only of the autumn statement 2012 . [135632] fair for those on benefits to be given the same increase? 305 Oral Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 306

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. The Prime Minister: What will be on the list is the These are difficult decisions that we have to make, but 5,000 more doctors and 6,000 fewer managers in the they should be made in the context of the fact that over NHS. The right hon. Gentleman talks about wanting to the past five years, benefits have gone up by 20% yet divide the country. The division is this: two parties came average earnings are up by only 10%. I think it is fair together in the national interest to take the difficult and right to have a 1% cap on out-of-work benefits, a decisions, and one party refuses to apologise for the 1% cap on tax credits, and a 1% cap on public sector past and to talk about the deficit, and has no economic pay. What is inexplicable is the position of the Labour policy to speak of. That is the division in British politics party which supports a 1% public sector pay cap but today. wants more for welfare claimants. That is not fair or right and it should think again. Edward Miliband: I have to say that if the Prime Minister cannot even admit that he has broken his Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): Can the promise on the top-down reorganisation of the NHS, I Prime Minister tell us why on Monday when he published do not have high hopes for this secret audit. Let us talk his mid-term review he failed to publish his audit of about another broken promise, this time on women. In coalition broken promises? his usual, modest way, he said: “We want to make sexual inequality history.” The Prime Minister: We will be publishing absolutely That is a big commitment. He added: every single audit of every single promise—all 399 pledges “That needs a serious commitment…clear policies” set out in the mid-term review. Unlike the Labour party, the audit will be full, frank and completely unvarnished and clear “leadership”. Will the secret audit therefore and the right hon. Gentleman will see it this afternoon. acknowledge another broken promise that the tax and Let me perhaps remind him of some of those pledges. benefit changes he is making are hitting women— We said we would cut the deficit and it is down by 25%; [Interruption.] The part-time Chancellor should calm we said we would cut immigration and it is down by down a bit too. Will the Prime Minister admit that the 25%; we said we would rebalance the economy and tax and benefit changes he is making are hitting women there are 1 million private sector jobs. That is a record three times as hard as men? to be proud of. The Prime Minister: There are more women in work Edward Miliband: I am afraid the Prime Minister will than at any—[Interruption.] have to do better than that. His adviser said that the Government should not publish the secret audit because Mr Speaker: Order. There is excessive noise in the it had “problematic areas”, would lead to “unfavourable Chamber. The questions from the Leader of the Opposition copy”, and identify “broken pledges”—that is a far cry must be heard, and the answers from the Prime Minister from the rose garden, isn’t it? The Government said must be heard. they would “throw open the doors…to enable the public to hold politicians…to The Prime Minister: The Leader of the Opposition account.” will be able to see when the document is published that Have another go; it is a simple question. Was it the there are more women in work than at any time in our Prime Minister’s decision not to publish the audit because history; that our pension reforms are helping women; —and I quote from his adviser—it would “overshadow” that our public sector pay freeze, which excludes the favourable coverage?—[Interruption.] The Prime Minister lowest paid, is helping women; and that we are helping should calm down; it is early in the year so calm down. women with extra child care for four, three and two-year- You’ve got difficult times ahead. Was it the Prime olds. What a contrast between a Government who are Minister’s decision not to publish the audit? prepared to publish every piece of information about every pledge and what has been achieved, and the Labour party, which cannot even apologise for the mess The Prime Minister: It is my decision that it is being it left this country in. published this afternoon. Is that really the best he can do? He has had a week sitting in the Canary Islands Edward Miliband: After that answer, it is no wonder with nothing else to think of. He cannot ask about the Prime Minister did not take any questions from unemployment because it is falling; he cannot ask about women journalists at his relaunch press conference. business creation because it is rising; he does not want to talk about the deficit because we have got it down; he Let us turn to the Prime Minister’s biggest broken cannot ask about welfare because he knows he is on the promise of all. The Chancellor hits hard-working people wrong side of the argument. and the most vulnerable with his strivers’ tax, but at the same time, he is giving—this April—a massive tax cut Edward Miliband: The only people on the wrong side to millionaires. If the Prime Minister’s audit is to be a of the argument are the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, candid assessment, will it not have to admit that he has who are trying to divide the country. broken that symbolic promise that we are all in this together? We have not seen the secret audit, but let us see whether we can get a sneak preview of it. The coalition The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman knows agreement said: the facts about the top rate of tax. His move to 50p meant “We will stop the top-down reorganisations of the NHS”. that millionaires paid £7 billion less in taxes than they I think we can all agree that that promise has been did previously. The fact is that, under this Government, broken, so can the Prime Minister confirm that it is on the top rate of tax will be higher in every year than it the list? was in any year under his Government. 307 Oral Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 308

The truth is this. The right hon. Gentleman talks Andrew Selous: Does the Prime Minister accept that about promises, but let us have a little audit of his we have brought in an 11% rise to the child element of promises. He promised us a fully costed deficit reduction tax credits, followed by a 5% rise, and that our recent programme, but we have had nothing; he promised us rises build on them, meaning a cash increase of £470 in proper reforms of welfare, but we have had nothing; the child element of tax credits under this Government? and he promised us that he would show how he would have a new policy on tuition fees, but we have had The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important nothing. I have audited all of the Government’s spending point about how we focus help on those most in need. I programmes and I have identified one where the waste would also make the point that, because we have lifted is simply appalling: the £5 million of Short money that the income tax threshold, someone on minimum wage goes to the Labour party every year—we get nothing who works full-time will have seen their income tax bill from it. cut in half under this Government. We are on the side of people who want to work hard, get on and provide Edward Miliband: The more the Prime Minister rants for their families. and blusters, the less convincing he is. The facts are these: he is cutting the top rate of income tax by an Q4. [135525] Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) average of £107,000 for everyone earning more than (Lab): There are more than 1 million children living in £1 million in Britain at the same time as he is raising poverty who do not qualify for a free school meal. taxes on everyone else. What do we know from this Several children’s charities are concerned that that number week? We know that he is a PR man who cannot even will increase when universal credit is introduced. Will do a relaunch. Halfway through this Parliament, we the Prime Minister take this opportunity to allay their know that the Government are incompetent, that they fears by giving a clear guarantee that any child who break their promises and that the nasty party is back. qualifies for a free school meal under the current rules will keep that entitlement when the rules are changed? The Prime Minister: It is perfectly clear what has happened since the start of this year. It is this Government The Prime Minister: I will look carefully at what the who are setting out their plans for the future; it is the right hon. Gentleman says about free school meals, but right hon. Gentleman’s party that is on the wrong side let me just make the point that universal credit will extend of the argument on welfare, that has nothing to say help to more people and to more families. It will help about the deficit, and has no credible policy on the those people who are only able to work a few hours a economy. He has a shadow Chancellor who he will not week, and help them with child care as well. back, but cannot sack. Nothing has changed in politics and nothing has changed in Labour. Q5. [135526] Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): It was good to see the Prime Minister out running over Christmas, and he is now setting the pace on welfare Q2. [135523] Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East reform. I have been out training for the London marathon Thurrock) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that to raise funds for my local Forget Me Not children’s we should be cutting taxes for hard-working people in hospice. Will my right hon. Friend join me in praising Basildon and Thurrock, rather than taking money all those who fundraise and volunteer for local hospices, away from them only to then return their own money and reaffirm the Government’s support for such schemes through tax credits? as the capital fund for hospices, for which my local Kirkwood hospice is currently applying? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. Of course, he will know that in April every working The Prime Minister: First, I wish my hon. Friend family will see a £220 tax cut as we lift the tax threshold every good luck for the London marathon—that is far yet further—everyone will benefit from that. In our more than I am capable of, I can assure him. We are view, what we should be doing is cutting people’s taxes, continuing to support children’s hospices by carrying rather than taking more in taxes and recycling them on with the £10 million funding. In this financial year, through the massive tax credits business. That is what we have provided an additional £720,000. We are also we believe on the Government Benches, and that is what making £60 million of capital funding available to adult will work for working families. and children’s hospices. Crucially, in the coalition agreement, a full audit of which will be published later today, we Q3. [135524] Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Is it not will be demonstrating how we will fulfil our pledge for a a clear example of how out of touch the Prime Minister per-patient funding system for palliative care, which is that while the overwhelming majority of the public will help all children’s hospices as they do such important want to maintain the ban on fox and stag hunting, he work for our country. actually plans to repeal it? Will he tell us why? Q6. [135527] Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/ The Prime Minister: As I explained before Christmas, Co-op): Will the Prime Minister confirm that single mum I have never broken the law and the only little red pests I Maggie from my constituency, who works all the hours pursue these days are in this House. she can in Tesco but does not earn enough to gain from the new tax allowances, will, after his changes to tax Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Does credits and universal credit, be a staggering £1,255 a the Prime Minister accept that under this Government— year worse off? [Interruption.] The Prime Minister: The point I would make to the Mr Speaker: Order. I am sure the House wishes to hon. Lady is that everybody is affected by these changes. hear the words of Mr Andrew Selous. Everyone on tax credits will be affected by the fact that 309 Oral Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 310 there is only a 1% increase. Everyone on out-of-work Q9. [135530] Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): A benefits will be affected by the fact that there is only a colleague of Lord Marland said: 1% increase. The question we have to ask ourselves “He likes the foreign travel, leading trade delegations, meeting is this: if we are saving £5 billion through these changes, foreign leaders, but wasn’t so keen on the detailed” which I believe are fair, how would Labour fill in this policy of his new job. Hmm, I wonder if the Prime £5 billion black hole? What would it take it off? Would Minister knows anybody else like that. it take it off the NHS? Would it take it off the defence budget? It is time we had some answers from The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman had all the Labour party. morning to think of that! It is important that we have Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): I thank the Ministers in both Houses who are linking up with the coalition Government for allocating £10.7 million to fastest-growing countries in the world. That is why our Edinburgh’s super-connected city bid. It will revolutionise exports to China and India are up 50%. We are connecting home and business internet use in parts of my constituency Britain with the fastest-growing parts of the world. such as Kirkliston and Ratho. Unfortunately, my constituents are immensely frustrated at Edinburgh council’s Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): Bearing year-long procurement process. What can the Prime in mind that Bills that might be thought to affect the Minister do to help speed up that process? royal prerogative require the signification of the Queen on Second Reading, will the Prime Minister tell us The Prime Minister: It is vital that everyone has whether he has yet heard from the palace whether it access to broadband and that increasingly we have that regards any of the major constitutional changes proposed overwhelming access to superfast broadband. I suspect in the Succession to the Crown Bill as intruding either that Edinburgh city council has seen some of the same on the royal prerogative or the coronation oath that Her problems that councils up and down the country have Majesty took? seen with getting state-aid clearance. We now have that clearance for broadband in England, but I am happy to The Prime Minister: Throughout the process of bringing look at the situation in Edinburgh. That has been one of forward this proposal, to which of course the Heads of the problems that have been holding back this vital all the Commonwealth—the dominion realms—have programme. also signed up, there has been very thorough contact between No. 10 Downing street and the palace, and all Q7. [135528] Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) the issues are settled and agreed. (Lab/Co-op): “You shouldn’t have to fill in long forms from the Revenue. You’re working. You need help. We want to help you.” I am sure the Prime Minister Q10. [135531] Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) recognises his words to families receiving child benefit. (Lab): Hundreds of thousands of householders in high How many families could face a fine for not filling out flood-risk areas cannot understand why the Government a long tax form? have effectively abandoned efforts to reach agreement with the British insurance industry on future insurance The Prime Minister: The point about the child benefit for their homes and fear that they will not be able to change is that 85% of families who receive child benefit insure their homes after June 2013. Why is the Prime will go on getting it. The question we all have to ask is Minister fiddling while the country floods? whether it is right for people earning £20,000 or £30,000 to go on giving child benefit to people earning £70,000, The Prime Minister: I am happy to put the hon. £80,000 or £90,000. We do not believe it is right, but Gentleman right. The discussions are still under way. apparently the Labour party thinks it is right to give They have made very good progress. I am confident that child benefit to millionaires. We do not think that is a we will reach an agreement. As he said, the current good use of money. agreement does not run out until June this year. I am regularly updated about how those discussions are going. Q8.[135529]StephenPhillips(SleafordandNorthHykeham) I know from my own constituency, which has been (Con): My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister rightly subject to regular flooding, just how important they recognises that there needs to be a new relationship are. I would also add that we have put in an extra between this country and the European Union. He has £120 million in flood defences. I think everyone can said—and I agree—that the British people must be now see that the flood defence work that has been done offered a “real choice” with regard to our continued over recent years has made a significant difference when membership. I hope that he can confirm to the House we have had high levels of rainfall and very high water today that it is his intention to seek a fresh settlement in our rivers and streams. with the EU and then to seek the consent of the British people to that settlement. Q11. [135532] Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): The Prime Minister: I can confirm that that is exactly Can the Prime Minister confirm to the House that what I believe this country should do. It is the right disability benefits are being uprated as usual and will thing for Britain, because it is right that we are involved not be subject to changes? in the single market and are active players in the EU, but there are changes that we would like in our relationship The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. that would be good for Britain and good for Europe, Disability living allowance, which is the key benefit and because of the changes taking place in the eurozone, received by people who are disabled, is not subject to which is driving a lot of the change in the European the 1% cap. The 1% cap is for in-work benefits. It is very Union, there is every opportunity to achieve that settlement important that we go on paying disability living allowance and then seek consent for it. in the way that we have been. 311 Oral Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 312

Q12. [135533] Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) they need. The fact is that the unemployment rate today (Lab): Can the Prime Minister confirm that my is lower than the rate that we inherited at the last constituent, who is a nurse as well as a single father to election. Over the last year, job creation in Britain was his two children, will lose £400 a year as a result of the faster than in any other G7 country. We still have a long Chancellor’s cuts to child benefit and other benefits? way to go to rebalance our economy and to get the growth in the private sector that we need, but we are on The Prime Minister: The results of the cuts to child the right track—1 million new private sector jobs over benefit are that the best-off 15% of families in this the last two years, the fastest rate of new business creation country will no longer receive child benefit at all. That for decades. There are good signs that the economy is is what is going to happen. That saves around £2 billion rebalancing. We need to encourage that by staying on a year. Again, Labour has now voted against £83 billion top of our deficit and getting it down, rather than just of welfare changes. I am afraid that the Opposition giving in on every decision, as we have seen today from have to start filling in the blanks of where they are the Labour party. going to make up this money. I think it is right that we say to people earning £60,000, £70,000, £80,000 or Q14. [135535] Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): more, “You shouldn’t be receiving child benefit.” It is According to the Children’s Society, up to 40,000 not an easy decision, but government is about making soldiers, 150,000 teachers and 300,000 nurses will lose decisions; and frankly, opposition is about making some out as a result of the Prime Minister’s decision to cut decisions too. tax credits and other benefits. Why are hard-working people like that paying for his economic failure? Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): Can I recommend that the Prime Minister takes a look at Monday’s excellent The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady needs to remember Back-Bench debate on corporate tax avoidance? Can I why we are having to take these decisions in the first ask what he hopes to achieve on this vital issue at place: it is to deal with the record budget deficit and the the G8? mess left by the Labour party. That is the background. The real question about public sector workers—about The Prime Minister: I will certainly look closely at the soldiers, about teachers and about people who work in Hansard debate and read , because this is not just a vital our public services—is that if they are being restricted issue for our country, but one that needs to be settled to a 1% increase, why on earth does the Labour party internationally. That is why I put the issue of corporate think that people on out-of-work benefits should see tax avoidance at the heart of the G8 this year, and we their incomes go up faster? That is the question that are also looking very closely at whatever else we can do Labour has to answer. We are being fair, because we are here in the UK. restricting the increase on tax credits and restricting the Q13. [135534] Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): increase on public sector pay, but we are also asking the Further to the question from my hon. Friend the Member same of those on out-of-work welfare. What we see as for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), may I completely unfair is backing the public sector pay increase ask the Prime Minister what estimate he has made of but wanting welfare to go through the roof. That is the number of families who are still unaware that they completely wrong, it is not fair and Labour must see are no longer entitled to child benefit, particularly that it has to change its mind. bearing in mind that the bill for the first full year’s charges will come wafting through the nation’s letterboxes Q15. [135536] Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): Last week, in April 1915? [Interruption.] Sorry, 2015. I visited the T. H. White group in Devizes and heard about its healthy order book and its recruitment plans The Prime Minister: We have written out to 800,000 for 2013. Like many British employers, however, it families. There has been a huge advertising campaign cannot find enough engineers to hire. Britain’s universities and this has been properly covered right across the lead the world in teaching science and engineering, yet media, but I have to say that it is absolutely extraordinary, we have an annual shortfall of 60,000 graduates, and in a week when Labour is complaining about difficult nine out of 10 postgraduate students in those subjects welfare decisions for people who are in work and people are from overseas. What more can we do to plug that who are out of work, that Labour Members also want critical skills gap? to make a priority of opposing taking away child benefit from people earning £100,000 or £150,000. They have The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right; really got to start taking some responsible decisions we have to tackle that problem at every level. That about how we deal with our deficit and get our economy means making sure that we are teaching maths and under control. science and other STEM subjects properly in schools. There are signs that the number of people taking those Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): Will the subjects is increasing. We need to ensure that our universities Prime Minister join me in congratulating the business are properly funded; the tuition fees will make sure that men—the entrepreneurs—and the staff who work at that is the case. We also need to raise the profile of the jobcentre in my constituency, whose efforts over the engineering, and that is one of the reasons that we last two and a half years have ensured that unemployment introduced the £1 million Queen Elizabeth prize for in Selby and Ainsty is down by a quarter since the last engineering. That, combined with the 34 university election? technical colleges, will help to ensure that we train the engineers we need for the future. The Prime Minister: I will certainly join my hon. Friend in that. The people in our jobcentres up and Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): It is more down the country do an excellent job helping people to important than ever that we seek to continue to move find work and to make sure that they get all the help forward and away from violence in Northern Ireland, 313 Oral Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 314 and to create stability. I am sure that the Prime Minister or reorganisations unless they had support from the GP will agree that full participation in and support for the commissioners, unless there was proper public and patient political and democratic process by everyone, so that engagement and unless there was an evidence base. Let the politicians can address the people’s issues, is absolutely me be absolutely clear: unlike under the last Government vital. In that context, and in the light of what is happening when these closures and changes were imposed in a in Northern Ireland, will the Prime Minister agree to top-down way, if they do not meet those criteria, they meet us to discuss the forthcoming legislation on Northern will not happen. Ireland, so that we can consider measures to increase democratic participation by people in deprived communities, Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): The look at the deplorable state of the electoral register in Prime Minister will remember that this House gave the Northern Ireland, which is in a bad state, and deal with green light to stem cell research some years ago, but we the discrimination against elected Members of this House now find that the EU Court of Justice is hindering from Northern Ireland who play by the rules while progress by bringing into question the validity of the others get money without taking their seats? All of that patents protecting research. On behalf of the millions needs to be addressed. of people in this country who suffer from long-term medical conditions, will the Prime Minister do what he The Prime Minister: I would be happy to meet the can to clear this blockage? right hon. Gentleman. Indeed, I have a meeting with a number of members of his party straight after Prime The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an extremely Minister’s questions to discuss the vital issue of ensuring serious point. I will look closely at it, because I think that the military covenant is properly fulfilled in Northern this country has a competitive advantage from our Ireland. He made a number of points in his question. I having taken difficult decisions about stem cell research. would throw back part of the challenge to him and his It is important that we continue to lead in that area—not party, just as I would to others in other parties, in saying only, as my hon. Friend says, for economic and scientific that we need to build a shared future in Northern reasons, but because we want to make sure that for Ireland in which we break down the barriers of segregation people with long-term and debilitating conditions, for that have been in place for many years. That is part of children with disabilities and other concerns, we crack the challenge to take away some of the tensions that we those problems for the future. Without that level of have seen in recent days. research, I do not believe that we shall. I will look very carefully at what my hon. Friend has said and I will Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Just in case anybody is write to him with an answer. in any doubt, will the Prime Minister confirm who he is closest to, politically? Is it Lord Tebbit or the Deputy Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Prime Minister? Co-op): Is the Prime Minister proud of the growth of The Prime Minister: I managed to get through Christmas food banks across this country, including in my without spending any time with either of them. I would constituency? Has he visited one, and if not, will he do remind my hon. Friend that I am closer to all Conservatives so? than I am to anyone from any other party. The Prime Minister: I am proud of the fact that Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): 1 million more people are in work in this country than Yesterday, the Secretary of State for Health received a there were when this Government came to office, that report recommending the downgrading of maternity we have made sure that the lowest paid are not paying services and the closure of the A and E department at income tax and that we have protected the poorest Lewisham hospital. Does the Prime Minister recall the families. I am proud of all those things. Unlike the hon. coalition promise to end the forced closures of A and E Gentleman, I do not look down at, or talk down to, and maternity services? If this is not to be on the list of people who work hard in our communities to help broken promises, will he ensure that these closures do people. not go ahead? Several hon. Members rose— The Prime Minister: What the Government and I specifically promised was that there should be no closures Mr Speaker: Order. 315 9 JANUARY 2013 Transforming Rehabilitation 316

Transforming Rehabilitation These radical reforms are underpinned by the principles of the big society. Enabling voluntary sector organisations to participate fully in the transforming of rehabilitation, 12.32 pm harnessing their expertise, and making the most of existing local links will be vital to the delivery of the The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice reductions in reoffending that we need to see. Providers (Chris Grayling): With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will be commissioned to deliver community orders and would like to make a statement about the rehabilitation licence requirements for the majority of offenders, and of offenders. will be paid by results to reduce reoffending. They will This Government are committed to an ambitious be expected to tackle the causes of reoffending and help programme of social reform, even at a time of financial offenders to turn their lives around. constraints. Major changes have already been delivered Through the introduction of payment by results, in welfare and education to tackle the challenge of endemic providers from all sectors will have a clear incentive to welfare dependency and educational underperformance, rehabilitate offenders. We will pay in full only for services particularly in deprived areas. In the coalition agreement, that succeed in reducing reoffending. Services will be the Government also promised commissioned nationally, and delivered across broader “to introduce a rehabilitation revolution” geographical areas. I am committed to ensuring that the new system continues to make best use of local expertise, to tackle the unacceptable cycle of reoffending, and and to integrate itself into existing local structures. today I am publishing a consultation paper entitled Potential providers will have to be clear about how they “Transforming Rehabilitation: a revolution in the way would sustain local partnerships in contracts, and we manage offenders”. We need a tough but intelligent commissioning will be informed by local intelligence. criminal justice system that both punishes people properly when they break the law and supports them to get their Extending rehabilitation to more offenders will introduce lives back on track so that they do not commit crime new costs to the system, but I believe that they can be again in the future. balanced by our drawing more providers into the system. Through increased use of competition, we can generate Despite significant increases in Government spending efficiency savings and drive down unit costs across the on offender management during the past decade, system, allowing our funding to go further. reoffending remains consistently and unacceptably high. The public sector probation service does an important In 2010, nearly half of prisoners were reconvicted within job in protecting the public. The Government are very a year of release. This rate is even higher for short-sentenced clear about the value and expertise that it brings, and we prisoners, the great majority of whom currently receive want to continue to use that expertise as we transform little or no support. our approach to rehabilitation. There will be a continuing Failing to divert offenders away from crime has a critical role for the public sector, which will include wide impact. The Ministry of Justice alone spent over advising the courts and assessing the risk that an offender £4 billion on prisons and offender management in 2011-12, poses to the public. Offenders who pose the highest risk and the wider cost of this failure is considerable. The of serious harm to the public will continue to be managed National Audit Office estimated that the economic cost directly by the public sector, and the public sector will of reoffending by recent ex-prisoners was as much as retain ultimate responsibility for public protection. £13 billion in 2007-08. I am clear that we cannot continue Transforming rehabilitation will help to ensure that as before. In difficult economic times, delivering real all who are given prison or community sentences are reform requires a dramatically different approach. We properly punished, while also being helped to turn their cannot afford not to do this. back on crime for good. That will mean lower crime I propose to introduce a new emphasis on life rates, fewer victims and safer communities. I commend management and mentoring support for offenders in my statement to the House. order to address the problems that lead them to turn to crime time and again. For the first time, all offenders 12.38 pm will be subject to mandatory supervision and tailored rehabilitation on their release from prison, including Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I thank the Justice Secretary those serving sentences of less than 12 months. Those for giving me advance sight of his statement. offenders have some of the highest reoffending rates, It is universally agreed that we need to do more to but there is currently no statutory provision after the reduce reoffending. Preventing offenders from going on halfway point of their sentences. I want to ensure that to commit more crimes and create more innocent victims persistent offenders do not walk out of the prison gates should be a priority for us all. Our probation service is with £46 in their pockets and little or nothing else. the Cinderella of our criminal justice system. It has a My vision is very simple. When someone leaves prison, low public profile, but is staffed by dedicated professionals I want them already to have a mentor in place. I want who help keep our communities safe. In 2011 it was them to be met at the prison gate, to have a place to live awarded the British Quality Foundation’s gold medal sorted out, and to have a package of support set up, be for excellence, and the performance of every single it training, drug treatment or an employability course. I probation trust was rated by the present Government as also want them to have someone whom they can turn to either good or exceptional. The service has done all that as a wise friend as they turn their own lives around. I the Government have asked it to do. intend to open up the market for probation services, so Let me begin by asking the Justice Secretary what he that we can combine the expertise that exists in the means by saying that he wants to professionalise the public sector probation service with the innovation and probation service. The probation service has been working dynamism of private and voluntary providers. in partnership with the private sector and voluntary 317 Transforming Rehabilitation9 JANUARY 2013 Transforming Rehabilitation 318

[Sadiq Khan] Chris Grayling: I am grateful to the shadow Justice Secretary, the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq groups for some time now, and I am sure the Justice Khan), for the elements of his statement that were Secretary will have seen some of the excellent work supportive of what we are doing, and of course I should being done in partnership around the country from thank the Labour party, because it is only thanks to Avon and Somerset to Doncaster, and from Peterborough legislation introduced by the Labour Government prior to Manchester. There is a place for all in our justice to 2010 that I am able to make such an important system, bringing in outside experience and innovation, reform for this country. I should also pay tribute to the and working together in partnership to reduce reoffending. former Lord Chancellor, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), who It is always worth looking for new ways to address the established the Peterborough pilot. The work being serious problem of reoffending, and that was the motivation done in Peterborough prison by the team involving the behind the pilot that the last Labour Government began St Giles Trust—I met representatives from the trust this in Peterborough, which is a payment by results model. I morning—and other charities working in partnership suspect it is also why the Justice Secretary’s predecessor with the private sector is an impressive example of what launched two PBR pilots in probation trusts. It is right can be done in mentoring offenders. to test and try out properly any fundamentally new way of working, and there is no history in criminal justice of The right hon. Gentleman mentioned pilots. The last payment by results. The Justice Secretary has chosen to Government were obsessed with pilots. Sometimes those cancel the two probation PBR pilots set up by his in government just have to believe in something and do predecessor. Can he explain why? Did he do so because it, but the last Government set out a pilot timetable he has already made up his mind that PBR works, under which it would have taken about eight years to despite there being no evidence at present to support get from the beginning of the process to the point of that view? evaluation and then beyond. Sometimes we just have to believe something is right and do it, and I assure Members We know, however, from where PBR has been used that if they went to Peterborough to see what is being in the provision of other public services—the Work done there, they would think it was the right thing programme—that it has failed to hit its targets, and the to do. Justice Secretary knows all about that programme, of course. Out of 800,000 people who started the Work The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Work programme, only 3.5% were still in work after six months, programme, and I wish he would stop using statistics and not a single provider hit the target. That is bad that are certainly not entirely—[Interruption.] Iamnot enough in the context of the Work programme, with sure how to describe them; “misleading” might be people not getting jobs or failing to keep jobs, but in the inappropriate language to use. The Opposition keep context of criminal justice, failure could lead to offenders missing an important point: in the Work programme, walking the streets without the necessary supervision we do not pay until someone has been in work for more and support, with the risk that poses to public safety. than six months. So if 800,000 people joined the Work We are also seeing in respect of the Work programme programme in the first year, half of them could not that it is not the small and local charities that are have been in work for six months. The reality is that the delivering. They have been crowded out by the big Work programme has so far helped 200,000 people find multinationals such as G4S and A4e. How will the jobs. Many of those people have been in jobs for the Justice Secretary ensure that that pattern is not repeated short term and have then gone on to second jobs, and in probation services? The Justice Secretary is proposing many of them have gone into long-term employment. that only low and medium-risk offenders will be dealt The programme is making a real difference, and I defy with by private companies, but can he confirm that any Member of the House to visit a Work programme medium-risk offenders include those who have committed centre, see the work that is being done and not come burglary and violent crimes, including domestic violence? away impressed. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman mentions G4S from a sedentary position. It is true that One in four offenders’ risk levels fluctuate during G4S is one of the prime contractors in the Work their time on licence. How will the Justice Secretary programme, but interestingly, it subcontracts all its ensure the PBR model will be able to take that into work in the Work programme to voluntary sector account? In that regard, how does he propose the police organisations and small businesses. The Work programme should share their sensitive information about offenders is the biggest voluntary sector welfare-to-work programme under their supervision with the private sector? that this country has ever seen, with organisations such The Justice Secretary has also announced a 25% as the Papworth Trust delivering support right across expansion in the number of offenders who will be East Anglia and organisations such as the Careers subjected to mandatory supervision, at a time when his Development Group involved. That charitable organisation budget is shrinking by 25%. Is it not therefore inevitable is running large parts of the Work programme in London. that resources will have to be stretched ever more thinly Labour Members need to look at the detail of what is to cover that increase in offenders, and can he assure the happening. House that high and medium-risk offenders will get the The right hon. Gentleman made a sensible point and appropriate supervision and support? asked a sensible question about the management of and We are willing to work with the Government to fluctuation in risk. We intend the public probation reduce reoffending. We will carefully consider the Justice service to work closely with local providers, and where Secretary’s consultation document and the answers he there is a variation in risk—where it suddenly becomes gives in the House this afternoon, and we hope that the clear that an individual represents a clear and present detail given will provide greater reassurance than his danger of harm to the public—the mechanisms will statements have so far. exist to move those people back under the public sector 319 Transforming Rehabilitation9 JANUARY 2013 Transforming Rehabilitation 320 umbrella. So the public sector will continue to work Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): There is nothing with the most serious offenders, through the multi-agency intrinsically wrong with working with the private and public protection arrangements and similar, and the voluntary sectors in the justice system; I did it when I police will continue to work closely with the public was the Justice Minister. I have two questions to put to sector on the most serious offenders. Where there is a the Secretary of State, if I may. First, on resilience, how clear and present risk to the public, it is the duty of the does he know that the organisations with these contracts, public probation service and of this Government—and like G4S in the Olympics, will be able to deliver? Secondly, it will continue to be so—to make sure that we supervise on accountability, things will go wrong in the justice and manage that risk, and that intelligence is shared system, cases will be disastrous and things will be between the police and the public probation service to serious. Who will ultimately be accountable to this manage the risk that exists, when it does exist, because House and to the public for the errors and mistakes? we must ensure that the public are protected. The right hon. Gentleman raised the question of Chris Grayling: The simple answer to the latter point cost, and I simply offer him one example of where is that responsibility will continue to lie with the public efficiencies can be delivered. When we contracted out probation service and, ultimately, the Secretary of State. the delivery of community sentences in London, the The right hon. Gentleman and I know that in any system cost of delivering those sentences fell by nearly 40%. I with a rate of reoffending there will be further crimes, am absolutely certain that although very good work is whether a public, private or voluntary sector provider being and will continue to be done in the probation does the work. I want to ensure that the level of reoffending service, and those professionals will continue to work in continues to go down and that we try every means at this field, there are efficiencies to be found. Such efficiencies our disposal. The payment by results regime opens the can be reinvested in providing support to those prisoners way to innovation to ensure that we do the best possible whose sentence is less than 12 months, who have never job in ensuring that people do not reoffend. had it before. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Although Lastly, the right hon. Gentleman asked about the I understand the Secretary of State’s enthusiasm for more difficult offenders. I wish to make it absolutely getting on with the job without waiting for more pilots, clear, as our consultation document does, that we will a decision that some of his advisers might have called have a pricing mechanism that makes it impossible for courageous, may I ask him to pay particular personal providers simply not to support the most difficult prisoners. attention to ensuring that charities and voluntary Every prisoner must have support. We are delivering organisations with a track record are not crowded out support that is mandated by the courts for every prisoner, by how contracts are let? Will he also consider whether and that will be continued. he should expand the role of the chief inspector of Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): These proposals, probation so that quality control over the whole of the which will greatly increase the potential for offender provision is maintained? managers to deliver rehabilitation, should mean that probation officers will be employed by many different Chris Grayling: The latter point is an important one types of organisation. Indeed, it will be vital for the and I rather agree with my right hon. Friend on that. I success of these reforms that probation officers at all look forward to having discussions with him and his levels of experience are found in the remaining public Committee about it. I am also strongly supportive of sector organisations and in the new delivery organisations. the voluntary sector. It is simply not the case, even Will the Secretary of State therefore ensure that he though the Opposition keep saying that it is, that the strengthens the corporate identity, and the training and voluntary sector is not involved in the Work programme. academic underpinning of probation as a profession, so That programme supports well over 100,000 people in that there is a strong base for our excellent probation the voluntary sector, using the real expertise of small officers and their profession, wherever they are deployed? and larger organisations such as the Papworth Trust and the Salvation Army. I want to see more of that in Chris Grayling: I start by paying tribute to my hon. this process. Friend. There is a slight myth in the media that we arrived in September and nothing had been done before, Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): but that is totally untrue; I have inherited some very May I ask the Secretary of State about accountability good work done by him and his colleagues, which to the courts? When a medium or low-risk offender is created the foundation for these reforms. Indeed, he and on a programme run by a private company and fails to I worked closely together in providing employment keep to the conditions of that order, who will make the support to prisoners through the Work programme. It is decision to return that offender to the court? Will it be very important that we ensure that we have the best the private company, which clearly has an interest in a possible professional standards. I apologise here, because successful outcome to the programme, or will it be a the point was raised by the right hon. Member for probation officer? Tooting (Sadiq Khan). One of the questions I have for the probation profession is: should we facilitate the Chris Grayling: It will be a probation officer. I expect creation of some sort of chartered institute that raises to have in every centre a seconded or attached probation professional standards in the profession? It will continue officer who will be responsible for enforcing the legal to be an important profession, with high-level specialist side of things. In much the same way as happens in the skills needed to manage the most serious risk. I am also Work programme, where Jobcentre Plus does the ensuring, through these proposals, that existing probation sanctioning, it will be a contractual duty of providers to staff have the opportunity to set up social enterprises report a breach but it will be the job of the public and mutuals, so that they themselves have the opportunity probation service to decide how to respond and whether to be part of the future. to refer it to court or do something else. 321 Transforming Rehabilitation9 JANUARY 2013 Transforming Rehabilitation 322

Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I thank the Secretary (Jeremy Wright), share. We have done quite a bit of of State for his statement, which I welcome. Does he work on it already, but we are up against a determined agree that the most effective support for former prisoners effort to get drugs into prison; some of the means used can be given by those with whom they have developed a to smuggle drugs into prison are quite eye-catching. We relationship of trust—a relationship that has been developed will do everything we can to reduce the availability of not just over the days or weeks prior to release but over drugs in prisons, but when someone comes out, if they a longer period of time—and that that is particularly have had some form of rehabilitation in prison I want the case for young offenders? In light of that, will he to see that continue in the community. The structure of consider how support can be given to the excellent these reforms and the through-the-gate approach will restorative justice work done with young men by the make it much more likely that we have consistent Sycamore Tree project at Thorn Cross young offenders rehabilitation through prison and beyond. institution in Cheshire? Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The last report of Chris Grayling: Absolutely. I look forward to visiting the Select Committee on Home Affairs, entitled, “Drugs: Thorn Cross at some point. I visited some years ago Breaking the Cycle”, pointed out that 35% of those when, as my hon. Friend knows, I was the candidate in coming out of prisons had a drugs problem. I support Warrington South. It is a very good centre and I look the principle of what the Secretary of State has said forward to visiting again in the not-too-distant future. I today, but will he be able to choose the expertise in absolutely believe that the role of such local projects is dealing with drugs of those organisations that will help very important. I am often asked why crime is coming with his rehabilitation revolution? Not just any organisation down. I think that one of the reasons is that all around can deal with drugs; those people must be experienced the country real efforts are being made by the voluntary in helping people once they have come out of prison. sector and the community sector to engage with young people who might otherwise re-engage with or embark on a life of crime. Chris Grayling: That is why not just any organisation with cash in the bank will be able to come in and win Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): My right the contracts. I want to see expertise and understanding hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale of how to bring in the different services that are available. East (Paul Goggins) and I recently had the opportunity They should be able to bring in the drug rehabilitation to visit the probation service in Greater Manchester, services funded by the Department of Health and deal where we saw the programme to deal with some of the with the local college, ensuring that prisoners are on most dangerous individuals—that is, people who had training courses. The people who do this work must been convicted of terrorist offences who will be released have a joined-up understanding of what needs to be over the next few years. The work being done to reintegrate done, otherwise we would not work with them. them into the community and to de-radicalise them— very specialised work indeed—was first rate and very Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): I warmly professional. Will the Secretary of State reassure us that welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. Will he give in the case of such prisoners—ex-terrorist offenders—the me an assurance that those who will now be responsible community will be kept safe and that vital reintegration for rehabilitation will give high priority to getting prisoners and de-radicalisation work will continue? working while they are serving their sentences and into jobs when they have completed their sentences? Chris Grayling: I can absolutely do that. I envisage no change, unless it is an improvement, to how we manage offenders such as former terrorists in the community. Chris Grayling: I intend to continue the work done by They would fall under the high-risk umbrella and I my predecessor, the right hon. and learned Member for would expect that work to continue in the public sector, Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), on increasing the amount of where it takes place at the moment. I pay tribute to work done in prisons. He has done good work in Greater Manchester probation trust, which is among extending that already and it is particularly important the most innovative and entrepreneurial of the probation that that work continues after prison. That was why my trusts. I have little doubt that some of the people in that hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) and I trust will see the opportunity to create a mutual or worked hard to ensure that prisoners who came out of co-operative. In the spirit of the Labour party and the jail entered the Work programme on day one and started co-operative movement, this is a great opportunity for a to get back-to-work support straight away. I want to see new generation of co-operatives to emerge and I want an integration of support that not only delivers the life to see staff participating in the future. management and mentoring I have discussed today but ensures that we provide proper back-to-work support Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): for offenders alongside that, as that is the best way of Does the Secretary of State agree that it is difficult and stopping them from reoffending. challenging to rehabilitate hardened drug addicts? Does he share my concern that many young people are going Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): During into prison as mild drug users but coming out as addicts? his statement, the Secretary of State said that sometimes Why are there still so many drugs available in our we must believe that something will work rather than prisons and what is he doing about it? having a pilot. That same Secretary of State believes that we should drastically increase electronic tagging, Chris Grayling: That is a concern that I and the despite his own impact assessment saying that that will Prisons Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, have no impact on reoffending. Should we take the my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam consultation seriously? 323 Transforming Rehabilitation9 JANUARY 2013 Transforming Rehabilitation 324

Chris Grayling: I would simply invite the right hon. Chris Grayling: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman Gentleman to visit his own probation trust in Wales, quite understands what we are trying to achieve. We which is one of the trusts trialling GPS tagging. I can need the qualifications and experience to protect the see real benefits in that tagging. We are considering it public from harm, but in my view the former offender and we are recontracting tagging contacts at the moment. turned good—the former gang member gone straight—is I think that GPS tagging offers a new dimension for our the best way of making sure that a young person community justice system that will help sometimes to coming out of jail does not go back to the same ways. protect offenders and sometimes to deal with offenders This is about getting a mix of high qualifications, of the who are doing things that they should not be doing. kind we find in our public probation service, in people who have turned away from crime and who are helping Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Does the Justice those who might end up in a place where they once were. Secretary agree that it is simply astonishing that there has not been rehabilitation support for the roughly Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I draw 50,000 a year whose sentences are less than 12 months? the House’s attention to my historic interest in social They have a reoffending rate of about 60% and I investment. congratulate him on the fact that this Government will I welcome the opportunity for charities and social finally address the issue, helping them back into society enterprises to get more involved in this area. Payment and reducing reoffending. by results is very hard on working capital. Will the Secretary of State outline what his Department is doing Chris Grayling: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for to increase access to finance for charities and social his comments. It is baffling that over all the years of enterprises—for example, the nascent social impact bond plenty for which Labour was in power, this is something sector? Labour never did. We have an extraordinary situation with thousands and thousands of offenders who leave Chris Grayling: Let me start by saying that I do not prison with £46 in their pocket and nothing else, and expect this to be a 100% payment-by-results contract. with no support, and a huge proportion of them reoffend. There is a need to enforce orders of the court, so I do I am determined to change that. not expect to be able to put 100% of the fees that we pay on a payment-by-results outcome basis. However, I do Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): want providers to be at risk; I want them to have their The Government talk a lot about evidence-based policy money on the table to deliver excellence for us, but I making. Will the Secretary of State tell me why we are absolutely accept my hon. Friend’s point. That approach not having pilots to see whether the reform will work? will make the cash flow situation less challenging than it would be in a 100% situation. Chris Grayling: I simply invite the hon. Lady to look I have already held and will continue to hold meetings at the work done in Peterborough and by voluntary with people in the social investment sector to encourage sector organisations to mentor offenders. Sometimes them to look at the measure as a real opportunity. This when we look at something, we can say, “That is the is the kind of area in which social investment in this right thing to do.” That is what we are doing. country should be involved. There is a clear public benefit and the possibility of earning a return. I absolutely hope and believe that our social investment sector will Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): I welcome the Secretary row in behind it. of State’s commitment to drug treatment. Does he share my concern that, in the past 10 years, there has been a Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): 165% increase in methadone maintenance prescriptions The Secretary of State was explicit in saying that we in prisons but a 30% reduction in detoxification procedures? could not afford not to do this. Can he be equally Will he commit today to making rehabilitation and explicit about the primary focus of the consultation recovery a key and central part of his plans? exercise? Is the measure about a reduction in reoffending or a reduction in expenditure? Chris Grayling: I absolutely give that commitment. One problem has been that if prisoners who are in Chris Grayling: This is absolutely about a reduction prison for a short time have no support after they leave, in reoffending. I have believed for a while that we all prisons can do while they are inside is to stabilise the should carry out this measure. I was particularly pleased situation. When there is through-the-gate rehabilitation, when the Prime Minister invited me to take my current with somebody waiting to ensure that rehab continues position. I absolutely believe that I should try to lead in the community, we have a much better chance of with the reform, and the Prime Minister is absolutely addressing the issues to which my hon. Friend refers. behind it. As the hon. Gentleman will know, in some parts of the United Kingdom, such matters are devolved; John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): The I hope that we are setting an example that others will probation service is staffed by highly qualified, professional, choose to follow. extremely dedicated and hard-working people. Medium-risk cases can be complex and serious in their consequences. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I The public will be concerned that the same levels of thank my right hon. Friend for fulfilling another manifesto qualification and professionalism should apply to promise in this rehabilitation revolution. Will we be supervision. Will the Secretary of State ensure that the following the great model of the National Grid young same level of qualifications and experience will apply to offender programme, which moves people into work? probation officers in the voluntary and private sectors? Its reoffending rates are in single digits, in contrast to 325 Transforming Rehabilitation9 JANUARY 2013 Transforming Rehabilitation 326

[Mr David Burrowes] Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): One of the busiest places in prison is the gym. I hope that the the unacceptable rates nationally. Can we follow through Secretary of State will look at how sports can help to with that model and replicate it across the country, so reduce reoffending. Will he look at the boxing project in that we have a conveyer belt not into crime but into Doncaster prison? It teaches offenders to get involved employment? in boxing and uses boxing coaches. Unfortunately, it has had to be stopped because of a change in the Chris Grayling: I pay tribute to the work done not guidelines on boxing in prisons. I understand some of only by National Grid but many other companies in the problems, but the scheme is great and people get this area. I have visited the Timpson’s workshop, which jobs at the end of the course. involves the father of the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Chris Grayling: I can give an assurance to the hon. Nantwich (Mr Timpson). It is a first-class facility in Gentleman. I am aware of the project to which he Liverpool jail of the kind that I would like to see more refers. I have seen a number of projects around the of. The more that we can engage the private sector in country in which boxing is used as a way of engaging helping offenders make the transition from prison into young people. I have no problem with that happening in employment, the better. I pay tribute to all those our prisons. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of organisations, and particularly National Grid. State for Justice, the hon. Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), who is responsible for prisons, Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): I strongly is writing to the hon. Gentleman to say that we are welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to look at the happy for the project to go ahead; our only caveat gap between a person leaving through the prison gate relates to violent offenders. We are happy to see the and finally being picked up by the authorities, and to project continue as a way of engaging non-violent offenders. close that gap; it is a key vulnerability when it comes to reoffending. Will he also look downstream at creating Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I warmly programmes that will help social and emotional capability congratulate the Justice Secretary on having the vision to be developed within prisons before people are released? to have every offender met at the prison gates with As he has converted to co-operatives, will he extend the somewhere to live and a proper package of support. Whitehall co-operative to health and education, so that There was certainly a pilot under the last Government— offending behaviours are addressed way earlier and giving offenders £46 and little else. We have seen where potential offenders do not go to prison in the first place? that ended up. Chris Grayling: The latter point is important, and I Will the Secretary of State outline the number of give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. I pay tribute to offenders who have problems with alcohol? Will he his work in establishing the Early Intervention Foundation. reassure me that alcohol will be given the same priority The way in which he works across the House is a good as drugs as offenders leave prison? example of Parliament setting aside politics and coming together in the interests of the country. I assure him that Chris Grayling: About three quarters of prisoners we will continue to look for different ways of working. have an addiction problem, a mental health problem or I see social challenges as a jigsaw puzzle. We are both. About half of prisoners have had some form of reforming welfare and education, and we have the troubled addiction problem. That is a real challenge, which colleagues families programme and an increased focus on early at the Home Office are looking at closely as well. There intervention. Today I am trying to put in another piece are new mechanisms to monitor and help and support of that jigsaw. The hon. Gentleman and I know that the those with alcohol problems. I accept that it is a real problems will not be solved overnight, but if we do not issue, which I hope and expect mentors working with move things in the right direction, we will never solve prisoners to address if they work with people with an them. I hope and believe that the measure is one part of addiction challenge. doing that. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Following congratulate the Secretary of State on the consultation. on from the question asked by the hon. Member for As one who in a previous life spent four years as Roy Nottingham North (Mr Allen), we should change the Hattersley’s deputy working on our party’s policy in attitude towards reoffending while offenders are in prison. this area, I can say that most Governments have failed Should we not have modern and efficient prisons rather to get the issue right. However, I did learn at that time than Victorian ones? Would it not be a good idea to that we must pay careful attention to how many people reopen Wellingborough prison—a modern prison and we put in prison and what we do with people in prison— the third cheapest in the country to run? education and skills training is still absolutely pathetic. Lastly, when a prisoner comes out, he needs the full Chris Grayling: I congratulate my hon. Friend on package of support—housing, education, a job and continuing to be a first-rate advocate for his constituency. everything else. Highly skilled people are needed to help He knows that my strategy is to modernise the prison make that happen. estate as fast as resources allow; it is clearly both cheaper and better if prisoners are in more modern Chris Grayling: I absolutely agree. We are doing this prisons. I will have more to say about that as time goes through a consultation document rather than simply by.We have had extensive discussions about Wellingborough arriving with a final blueprint—I am setting a direction prison and its site. My answer is never say never, but he of travel but I am not saying that every detail is finalised—to will know the nature of the challenges that we face and offer people in this House and outside an opportunity how we are trying to address them. to say, “You want to do that, but if you tweak this a bit 327 Transforming Rehabilitation9 JANUARY 2013 Transforming Rehabilitation 328 it might be better.” I hope that over the next two or that we need to be able to return prisoners as quickly as three months we can look at that feedback, digest it, possible. I intend to do everything I can to use the and help to hone the final package in a way that gives us prisoner transfer agreement, which more and more the maximum opportunity of working with and using countries are now ratifying, as much as possible to the expertise of people such as the hon. Gentleman who return offenders to other countries, and to do everything have been here and done this. I can, with my hon. Friends in the Home Office, to make sure that they do not come back. Several hon. Members rose— Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The practical effect of Mr Speaker: Order. I am keen to accommodate the the Work programme in Wrexham is that local charitable extensive interest in this important statement, but I organisations have been excluded from providing services, remind the House that this is an Opposition day with and some of them have closed. Will the Secretary of significantly subscribed debates to follow. Therefore, if State impose a contractual condition that local charitable I am to succeed in my mission to accommodate colleagues organisations should be involved in the provision of I require their help in the form of succinct questions, an services for the new scheme? object lesson in which will now be provided, I feel sure, by Mr Philip Davies. Chris Grayling: It depends on what works. There are very good charities delivering excellent services for this Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I warmly support the country. There are charities that do good and noble thrust of my right hon. Friend’s proposals, but the work but are less good at the jobs they do. What matters thorny issue is about what constitutes a successful outcome to me is that we have the organisations that do the best on payment by results. I have met people in the probation job. In the Work programme we will find excellent service who think that reducing reoffending from 10 organisations in the charitable sector doing first-rate burglaries a month to two is a success. Will my right work and excellent private organisations doing first-rate hon. Friend assure me that that will not be considered a work, and I would like to have the best of both. success and that only no reoffending will be considered a successful outcome? Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): Chris Grayling: I can give my hon. Friend an assurance I strongly welcome what the Secretary of State has said. that I will not be rewarding people for someone burgling Will he look not only at the amount of money that a few houses rather than a lot of houses. prisoners get on release but the monetary form in which it is given to them? I am concerned that many prisoners are given the money in cash form and go immediately to Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): The moment the nearest town to use it to purchase inappropriate at which the probation service has been commended for goods such as alcohol that damage the essential stability its effective performance is an odd one for the Secretary of their first 48 hours post-release when they need to set of State to choose to put his foot on the accelerator. a good pattern of behaviour. What is his estimate of the number of probation officers who will be made redundant, what is the anticipated cost of that, and does he have an agreed budget for it Chris Grayling: Absolutely. Another problem in the from the Treasury? system was that up until a few months ago prisoners could not even sign on for benefits for a week after Chris Grayling: I do not expect this to lead to wholesale release, which left a huge hole in their finances and redundancies in the probation service. It certainly means caused a lot of reoffending. I addressed that when I was a new world for many people in the probation service in a Minister in the Department for Work and Pensions. being part of the new organisations, new social enterprises We have to make sure that the environment is right and new consortia that will deliver the services. Yes, of when prisoners are released. If they are met by a mentor course there will be some changes, but this does not at the gate who then sorts out their lives, showing them involve, suddenly and instantly, mass redundancies in where they are going to live and making sure that they the probation service—that would not be right. are signed on to benefits, I hope that their time to go down the pub will be much diminished. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Of the 50,000 prisoners on short-term sentences who are released each Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Changing human year, a growing proportion are EU and other foreign behaviour is a complex business, and I have been very nationals. These people do not deserve rehabilitation; impressed by the work going on across agencies in the they deserve deportation. Will my right hon. Friend dig Scunthorpe area to reduce reoffending, particularly when deep within the security provisions of the EU free it is related to alcohol and drugs misuse. Changing what movement directive to ensure that if any EU national is going on puts at risk those sorts of activities. Why is commits an imprisonable offence in this country, of the Secretary of State allowing only six weeks for this whatever sentence length, they are deported on release consultation when it is so important to get it right? and barred from returning to this country? Chris Grayling: This is an iterative process. We have a Chris Grayling: I agree with every single word that my formal consultation period of six weeks. We carried out hon. Friend said. We have far too many foreign national a consultation on the future of probation last year, and prisoners in our jails. The challenge of returning them, this is an updated consultation. We are going to carry of course, is that there has to be somebody willing to on listening to Members across the House. It will take take them at the other end—I am not willing simply to us a few more months to hone and finalise our final release criminals on to the streets. I absolutely agree package, and we will look at what works. If the best idea 329 Transforming Rehabilitation9 JANUARY 2013 Transforming Rehabilitation 330

[Chris Grayling] around the country, locally commissioned, would be unbelievably complex and take an inordinate amount of comes in half an hour before we finalise it, then that is time to administer, and the expertise is not really there fine. I want to make sure that what we have is what to deliver that. We will commission nationally but the works. delivery will be as local as possible.

Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): While I recognise that the Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): This statement Secretary of State’s proposals seek to ensure that seems to be driven more by extremist right-wing ideology ex-prisoners make a success of their lives once they are than by any empirical evidence, because the Secretary released, I want to return to the matter of those who of State acknowledged that the public sector is best enter prison with a drug problem. Has he managed to placed to deliver public safety. Is he planning to allow call a complete halt to the practice of retoxifying prisoners the police to share intelligence with G4S and other prior to release when the Prison Service has taken the private providers? trouble to detoxify them at the beginning of their sentences? Chris Grayling: I know that the Labour party is going through an identity crisis at the moment, and the hon. Chris Grayling: We will do everything we can to do Gentleman may be in the wrong party, but if I am not that. The Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the mistaken the Peterborough pilot was started by Labour Member for Kenilworth and Southam, is looking very and the legislation that allows me to do this was passed hard at the whole issue of how we manage drugs in by Labour, so does he support what his party did, or prisons and the nature of such rehabilitation. As a not? result of these reforms, I hope that we will end up not only dealing with the question of retoxification but Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I welcome the extension identifying problems, starting rehab in prison and continuing of rehabilitation to more offenders. As my right hon. it post-prison, and getting prisoners off drugs altogether. Friend rightly said, a place to live on release is vital. Will capital funding be available to assist in the development Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): of such, sometimes specialist, housing? Some parallels have been drawn between this plan and the Work programme. One of the problems with the Chris Grayling: This is an important issue that was Work programme is that minimal information is available raised with me this morning by the probation trust from some of the private providers, and they are not chairs. Of course, we provide a number of specialist subject to freedom of information requests. How will accommodation blocks already. As part of the work we this be different? do over the next two or three months, we need to look at exactly how we ensure that the right vehicles are available Chris Grayling: I am working on reforms to FOI at to address accommodation needs. I want to see what I the moment. We will try to be as transparent as possible. saw this morning at St Giles Trust, which has a small The hon. Lady has to remember, although she is not team of professionals who are very good at finding guilty of this, that over the past couple of years I have young people who are out of prison somewhere to live been regularly attacked by Labour Members about the and stabilising their lives. use of national statistics. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot demand the information in advance and Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I want to press then want me to conform to national statistics rules. We the Justice Secretary on something. On his watch, the will publish data as soon as we are able to do so, under Government have cancelled the probation service’s the guidance of our statisticians, and we will be as payment-by-results pilots before we have heard the evidence. transparent as possible over all this. Is not risk to the public increased when we do not have the results of those pilots? Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): In welcoming this statement, may I ask the Secretary of State to Chris Grayling: I sat through a decade in opposition expand on one aspect of it? He said, “Services will be watching the previous Government so often piloting commissioned nationally”, but he also said that he is something, with nothing ever happening. The number committed to ensuring that the new system will make of pilots that the Labour Government went through in the best use of local expertise. In an area such as West office was endless. There is something in the work that Mercia, where our probation service has a strong record is being done in Peterborough and the voluntary sector of working with the voluntary sector, how can we that I want to capture now, not in a decade’s time. ensure that the existing relationships are expanded and improved on rather than discarded and replaced? Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): In my constituency, Royal British Legion Industries is doing a great job in Chris Grayling: One of the things I intend to write getting people back into employment through the Work into the tender documents when the time comes is a programme. Does the Secretary of State envisage requirement for the bidder to demonstrate that they are organisations such as RBLI helping, in particular, ex-service capable of maintaining and developing these local personnel who are former offenders to be rehabilitated? partnerships, which are crucial. In an area such as integrated offender management, for example, it is essential Chris Grayling: I absolutely hope that RBLI will be to maintain those close links. The point made in the one of the organisations that will come forward. It is an document is that it is not practical to commission a example of practical delivery of the Work programme contract of this kind on a fragmented basis. Trying to by the voluntary sector on the ground, contrary to what have 15, 20 or 30 small payment-by-results contracts we sometimes hear. There is a particular challenge in 331 Transforming Rehabilitation9 JANUARY 2013 Transforming Rehabilitation 332 dealing with the number of ex-service people in our life management. Will he confirm that he recognises prisons. The more expertise we can bring to bear on that the transformative impact that we could have includes that, the better. focusing on early years work at primary school, and even before that, with professionals such as speech and Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The Secretary of language therapists and, probably even more importantly, State mentioned in passing the importance of mental good parenting specialists? health in prison and the number of prisoners who suffer from mental health problems. I am sure that he understands Chris Grayling: I absolutely accept that. That is why I the need for significant support, both in prison and after, said that I see meeting the social challenge we face as a in reducing reoffending among that group. Will he confirm jigsaw puzzle. Different pieces, whether they be intervention that counselling and other services for those with mental to work with troubled families, health visitors in the health problems will get the priority they need, both in home, guidance for young lone parents or helping offenders prison and after, as a result of these changes? who are long-term unemployed, are all part of a broad- ranging challenge that I believe will, as time goes by, Chris Grayling: The support in prisons for mental deliver real change in our society. health is substantially provided by the national health service. We have to make sure that what starts in prison carries on after prison, but one of the flaws in the Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): Northamptonshire current system is that it does not work very well in that has the lowest reoffending rate in the country, despite respect. I hope that, by creating a service that is much the chaotic circumstances that prevail. That is a tribute more through the gate and by addressing the life- to the local probation officers in my area. They are management of offenders as they move through prison concerned that this ideological move is being rushed and afterwards, there will be continuity in the delivery through without proper thought for the circumstances of those services and that a mentor will look three and that it has not been properly tried, tested or evidenced. months ahead and say, “Prisoner X is coming out and The real concern is that the Justice Secretary is not like needs to carry on with their counselling service. I will a shopkeeper gambling on a new line of stock; he is make sure that happens.” dealing with public protection. What is his response to the comments of Harry Fletcher of the National Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): Association of Probation Officers, who says that this The Secretary of State will be aware that in 2010 and move will compromise public protection? 2012 only 56% of those on drug treatment and testing orders completed them. Will he clarify and confirm Chris Grayling: I do not agree with Harry Fletcher. I what further steps will be taken to ensure that those am making sure that, when it comes to risk of harm to who are on such orders fully complete them? the public, that remains in the public sector and that it will continue to do so. Chris Grayling: I intend to legislate in the near future to ensure that, when we do this, the court has the power Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I to require people who have short sentences to go through pay tribute to the probation service for its work in my rehabilitation programmes. It is important that we have constituency, a very rural and sparsely populated area. a system whereby if someone who has a drug problem What thought has the Secretary of State given to how has a short sentence and is released from jail having these proposals will be carried out in such areas, which started rehab there, that rehab will carry on and they lack the presence of private sector and charitable will be required to do it. That will be the case. organisations with the necessary skills to carry out rehabilitation? Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): The Justice Secretary will be well aware of the special experiences and needs of women in the criminal justice system. There are Chris Grayling: The probation service in Wales has already some excellent programmes supporting women been one of the most innovative in doing this and has, offenders, such as the women matter programme in Greater in fact, in the past few months produced a blueprint on Manchester. Will the Justice Secretary assure me that he how this could happen in Wales, following a similar will use the consultation period to reflect carefully on model to the one I have set out today. I fully expect to how a payment-by-results method will need to be adapted see members of the Wales probation team at the forefront to meet the particular needs of women offenders? of creating either mutuals or co-operatives to deliver the services. I pay tribute to the Wales probation trust, Chris Grayling: I can give the hon. Lady that assurance. which is imaginative and innovative and has some great The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend ideas to do precisely what my hon. Friend is talking the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), about in difficult areas where communities in rural who has responsibility for women in prisons, and I are areas are spread out. looking at the issue. There are different challenges for adult males, young people and women in prisons, and Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I warmly we need to be careful and ensure that we approach each welcome the Lord Chancellor’s statement. Often, small of those groups with an appropriate understanding and medium-sized enterprises and voluntary providers of the different circumstances in which they find themselves. are put off applying for Government contracts because of the complexity of the process involved. May I urge Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): The Justice Secretary my right hon. Friend to make the application process to has rightly said that the failure to divert people away run probation services as straightforward as possible in from crime is having a wide impact and he has mentioned order to maximise the number of applicants? 333 Transforming Rehabilitation9 JANUARY 2013 Transforming Rehabilitation 334

Chris Grayling: I can give that assurance. One of the Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is absolutely right things that I have learned from the contracting of the and I pay tribute to him for the work he has done. There Work programme is to try to make the process as simple is enormous expertise in this field in the House and I as possible for small organisations. I am not sure that hope that all Members will feel able to take part in the we did it as effectively as we could have then, but we will consultation. The Labour party introduced power after certainly do so this time. power, scheme after scheme and pilot after pilot, often for PR purposes, but seldom did anything. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Along with Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): The Lord many other Members, I greatly welcome the statement. Chancellor rightly reminded us in his statement that the Will my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor join me criminal justice system must both punish offenders and in commending the governor of HMP Shrewsbury, Mr seek to rehabilitate them, but will he acknowledge that Gerry Hendry, on giving the very highest priority to many of our constituents doubt that we have got the finding places for prisoners on release to live and work? balance right? Will he reassure us, and is he confident, He has demonstrated clearly that rehabilitation works, that his proposals will achieve outcomes that will increase because reoffending has fallen greatly. public confidence?

Chris Grayling: I indeed pay tribute to the work not Chris Grayling: I hope and believe so. The reality is just there, but across the prison service. We have some that, whether we are the hardest hard-liner or the softest first-rate professionals in the probation service who liberal on crime, we all have an interest in preventing have a strong future in delivering support to offenders reoffending. I understand where my hon. Friend and his in our communities, whether as part of a high-quality, constituents are coming from. That is why we have specialist public sector probation service or, indeed, as taken steps such as increasing the protection that part of one of the new generation of organisations. householders receive if they meet an intruder in their home, introducing a mandatory life sentence for a second- time serious sexual or violent offender, and introducing Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): The Labour party a mandatory punishment to every community sentence. suggests that there is no evidence on mentoring. I spent We will take further measures that will restore and the past 12 months studying that particular issue for my rebuild the public confidence in the criminal justice book, “Doing Time”, which, amazingly, is still available system that was so lacking when we inherited it. in shops. The fact of the matter is that the Labour party introduced custody plus in 2004 to 2007 on this exact Mr Speaker: I thank the Secretary of State and other issue, but it did not follow it through. It is this coalition colleagues for their succinctness, which enabled 45 Back that has the guts and determination to address the Benchers to question him in 41 minutes of exclusively crucial bridge between prison and release. Back-Bench time. 335 9 JANUARY 2013 Points of Order 336

Points of Order “Erskine May”, is borne carefully in mind. The question of Queen’s consent is a separate matter. Page 2430 of the Order Paper on the House’s future business notes 1.30 pm that consent is to be signified before the House embarks Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order, on the Second Reading debate. That is a technical issue Mr Speaker. when the Queen’s prerogative or interest may be thought to be engaged in a proposed measure. It simply confirms “The irregular use of the Queen’s name to influence a decision of the House is unconstitutional in principle”. that the House has the freedom to legislate as it sees fit; it does not in any way convey the personal view of the You will know that, Mr Speaker, because it says so on sovereign. page 440 of “Erskine May”. Will you confirm that that will apply to consideration of the Succession to the I hope that that is helpful to the hon. Gentleman and Crown Bill? Earlier, the Father of the House and the to the House. Prime Minister came perilously close—though they are Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): On a point of wily birds and did not step over the line—to praying order, Mr Speaker. Youwill recall that on two occasions, Her Majesty’s opinion in aid. Will you also confirm that the names of the fallen in Afghanistan were not announced if, on Second Reading, the Government signify that Her at Prime Minister’s Question Time, but were announced Majesty has consented to place her prerogative at our publicly on a Wednesday and a Tuesday. After protests disposal, that will signify neither her approval nor from the House, the practice of announcing the names disapproval of the Bill, the contents of the Bill or any at Prime Minister’s Question Time was restored. You amendments that may be considered in this House, but may have noticed today that the name of the soldier that it will be entirely for us to decide how to proceed? who was tragically killed recently in Afghanistan was not announced at Prime Minister’s Question Time. Mr Speaker: The short answer is that I think I can There may be a good reason for that, but the press offer the hon. Gentleman the comfort and assurance he states that the family have been informed. Will you seeks. I am grateful for his point of order and for his ensure that this practice is resumed, so that we can be courtesy in giving me notice of it. I listened carefully to reminded of the true cost of war? the exchanges in Prime Minister’s questions and I did not think that they offended against our rule against the Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I use of the sovereign’s name to influence debate. I took did not have notice of his point of order, although the question to be primarily a factual one which, as I make no complaint about that. I do not claim to be “Erskine May” notes on page 441, is perfectly orderly. entirely sighted on the subject. To my knowledge, the When the House comes to debate the Succession to name has not been publicly disclosed. That is one the Crown Bill, the Chair will be alert to ensure that the possible explanation. His wider point, to which he and guidance on using the name of the Queen or the names others attach great importance, was made forcefully of other members of the royal family to influence and I hope that it will be noted in the appropriate debate, which is indeed set out on page 440 of quarters. 337 9 JANUARY 2013 Children (Performances) Regulations 338 1968 (Amendment) Children (Performances) Regulations 1968 theatre groups, chaperones, children’s organisations, child (Amendment) psychologists, parents and many others. Although there are still some minor issues of contention, there are Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order surprising levels of consensus. We are all agreed that the No. 23) status quo is no longer viable. Subsequently, that has been profoundly reinforced by the revelations involving 1.34 pm Jimmy Savile and others in the entertainment industry in particular, where the arrests continue apace. Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): I beg to move, The Government launched a public consultation exercise That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Children in May last year that ran until 3 August, but it has not (Performances) Regulations 1968 to streamline opportunities for yet reported. I believe that the recommendations in the children to take part in performances; to reduce unnecessary Bill are clear, practical and proportionate, and that they regulation; to clarify when a licence is required; to strengthen the will agree with the findings of the consultation, which emphasis on protecting children; and for connected purposes. we anticipate. I am grateful to all those who gave their This year marks the 50th anniversary of the Children time so willingly to inform that consultation exercise, and YoungPersons Act 1963, which, among other things, and to Sarah Thane in particular for the immense brought in a system of regulating child performances. amount of work that she has done and for her continuing That was a welcome innovation to promote the ability support in carrying her work forward through my Bill. of children to pursue their talents and strut their stuff The basic principle in updating the regulations is in a safe and beneficial way, and it resulted in a outlined in Sarah Thane’s report, which states that comprehensive set of regulations that came into force in “performing can be good for children and has the potential to 1968. develop a wide range of skills and talents”, Fifty years on, that legislation needs updating. Back and that children in the 1960s, we had only three terrestrial TV channels, whereas today we have hundreds of satellite and cable “must be free to express their talents and enthusiasm in a wide variety of ways, without the heavy hand of the state interfering stations. “Britain’s Got Talent”, “The X Factor” and where it is not needed.” the explosion in so-called reality TV over the past 15 years or so were then just a figment of the imagination. At the moment, the regulations are administered by The internet had not been invented. Ofcom was not local authorities, which are responsible for issuing licences regulating. Criminal Records Bureau checks were not to children who perform. The Bill does not propose to being made. Jimmy Savile had almost been beatified. change that. The problem is that the regulations are We therefore need the safeguards to be brought well and interpreted inconsistently and are often followed or truly into the 21st century. enforced randomly across the country.For many authorities, this is not a mainstream activity with a dedicated full-time The ongoing revelations in the wake of the Savile licensing officer, so a budding child performer can allegations have made it all the more urgent to make effectively be discriminated against by postcode. this system fit for purpose and to ensure that children can pursue their talents safely. Parents need to be assured The regulations are too bureaucratic, so many children that their children will not fall into the clutches of miss out on opportunities because the licences take too predators, nor be exploited by over-zealous producers long to turn around. There is a requirement in some and broadcasters. Although in most cases we should authorities that at least 21 days’ notice be given when ultimately trust parents to know what is best for their applying for a licence, which makes many short-notice children, we need safeguards against the few particularly assignments completely impractical. In some cases, it pushy parents who think their six-year-olds are emotionally can take considerably longer. Parents have written to robust enough to debut on a stage in front of millions of me complaining that their children have missed out on prime-time viewers or to do the rounds of those rather licences because they have had to wait for the licensing cheesy child beauty pageants that seem to have crept officers to come back from holiday or because a production across the Atlantic. company has used an alternative actor who happened to live in an authority that was much more geared up I pursued this matter as Minister for children at the for issuing licences quickly and without question. Department for Education, but was not able to persuade the powers that be to include it in the forthcoming Each year, an estimated 45,000 licences are issued to legislation. I am hence promoting this stand-alone Bill child performers, with some authorities issuing as many today. However, I see no reason why it could not still be as 3,000 and some fewer than 100—a wide disparity. incorporated into the forthcoming children and families Many theatre companies, both commercial and amateur, Bill. Much of the groundwork has been done and I have a policy not to include children at all, simply believe that the provisions will be widely supported because doing so is fraught with too many problems. across the entertainment industry and across the political That cannot be right. We need fewer but better rules, as divide. well as more guidance that is more appropriate, so that The last Government commissioned Sarah Thane, the resources are focused on ensuring that local authority the respected former chairman of the Royal Television officers are effectively monitoring the efficacy of the Society, to undertake an exploratory systemic review, regulations and that licences are being used properly to which was published in March 2010. Following work help producers to develop effective safeguarding policies, that we had done in opposition, I picked up the rather than on processing the often inappropriate and recommendations in her excellent report. Within the excessive paperwork. Department for Education, I consulted widely through My Bill would reduce the occasions when full licensing working groups of experts from across the entertainment is required but ensure that where it is required, it is industry, broadcasters, regulators, local authorities, amateur proportionate and meaningful and everyone is held 339 Children (Performances) Regulations 9 JANUARY 2013 Children (Performances) Regulations 340 1968 (Amendment) 1968 (Amendment) accountable for their ensuing responsibilities. There taking ages to turn around, and a large regional youth should be a presumption that licences will be issued choir that performs occasionally with scores of budding unless there are strong grounds not to, but an onus on Kate Jenkinses will not have to compile reams of paperwork the employer or producer to identify and manage risk. for each of its members. Licences should be produced on a much reduced time I would scrap the so-called four-day rule, whereby if a scale, available online and sped up through the use of child is not paid, a licence is not required for up to four electronic databases and nationally promoted examples days of performances in any six-month period. That is of best practice. There should also be greater flexibility open to abuse. I would also set out clear national in the terms of the licence, particularly in the case of thresholds to ensure that those responsible for safeguarding filming, for which definitive time frames are not always the welfare of children, such as chaperones, have the possible. Surely the amount of work required of a child appropriate ongoing training to do so. Would Jimmy and the ensuing pressure, not the specific dates on Savile have succeeded in luring so many teenagers back which it can take place, is the more important consideration. to his dressing room if the chaperones had been there, Many of those problems can be dealt with by updating on the ball and wise to the mesmeric charms of dodgy secondary legislation, but there are matters that require shell-suited celebrities? Many chaperones are doing a a change in primary legislation, not least a viable and very good job, but there are no formal qualifications for contemporary definition of what “performance” actually the job and no nationally agreed standards, and my Bill means. My Bill would provide that after further consultation would address that. with experts. There are a number of other technical considerations Fly-on-the-wall television programmes with no added in my Bill to counter existing measures that are quite level of risk need not be subject to regulations, for simply anachronistic, obstructive and unnecessary. One example when children are in a natural school or sporting deals with child earnings, because at the moment how environment. However, there is a particular concern they will be used has to be stipulated. Others deal with when children are put in a contrived documentary the requirement for a GP’s certificate, provided at great situation, in which case the psychological implications cost, which is unnecessary; with the requirement of need to be carefully considered. I could cite “Boys and 15 hours of tuition a week; and with the requirements Girls Alone” on Channel 4 some years ago. on performing abroad. I would also ensure that the Under the Bill, it would remain the case that licences broadcasting code enforced by Ofcom complemented were not required where the performance was arranged the terms of the Bill. by a school, or where participation in an activity posed Overall, my Bill is intended to overhaul and streamline no greater risks than those faced by a child in the a system that is clearly now past its sell-by date, with ordinary course of his life and he was not being paid. opportunities for children to perform being greater We also need to make a greater distinction between than ever before. We need a system in which it is much amateur and commercial performances when it comes clearer when licences are required, we need those licences to requiring licences. There is a world of difference to be available speedily, and we need proper enforcement between children appearing in the amateur village panto and monitoring, consistently applied across all local surrounded by family members and neighbours, and authority boundaries. We also need greater professional those who tread the boards late at night alongside status and recognition for the important work that professionals, a long way from home, for money. My chaperones do, subject to appropriate and proportionate Bill would allow amateur companies to register with the standards and training across the country. local authority as an entity so that they can use children, Just as excessive and inflexible Criminal Records rather than having to apply for an individual licence for Bureau and vetting and barring requirements drove children to take part. I know that many am-dram valuable volunteers away from coming forward, so a companies in hon. Members’ constituencies have well-intentioned but bureaucratic system of performance complained about that for a long time. regulations has led to too many budding young thespians Current primary legislation states that when a licence being deprived of the opportunity to take to the stage. is required, it cannot be granted a child under the age Under my Bill, Cinderella will be able to go to the ball of 14 except when they are acting or dancing in a ballet secure in her parents’ knowledge that she will benefit and the part can be taken only by a child of that age, or and be safe, and that every necessary precaution has when they are taking part in a musical. That is far too been taken to deter shell-suited predators. prescriptive and restrictive, and my Bill would remove Question put and agreed to. that age and activity requirement. Instead, there should Ordered, be protections reflecting broad age bands of children. Although more flexible individual licences should That Tim Loughton, Mrs Cheryl Gillan, Meg Munn, remain for children under 13 who are paid to perform, a Mr Graham Stuart, Dan Rogerson, Andrea Leadsom, more sensible approach for older children taking part in Ann Coffey, Dr Phillip Lee, Henry Smith, Pauline Latham, one-off large productions—or, as I have said, for amateur Mr Robert Buckland and Mrs Eleanor Laing present productions—is an extension of the simplified approval the Bill. process known as “body of persons approval”. That Tim Loughton accordingly presented the Bill. way, a budding village Cinderella will go to the ball Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on rather than be thwarted by waiting for a licence that is Friday 1 March, and to be printed (Bill 118). 341 9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 342

John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): I pay Opposition Day tribute to my hon. Friend for pressing for this debate. Does he agree that it is a good example of Parliament— [13TH ALLOTTED DAY] all-party groups, Select Committees and the Labour Opposition—playing a part in getting the Government Pub Companies to do the right thing in the end? I hope that they will be [Relevant documents: The Second Report of the Trade toasting Toby Perkins in pubs across the country tonight. and Industry Committee, Session 2004-05, Pub Companies, HC 128, the Fourth Special Report of the Trade and Toby Perkins: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend Industry Committee, Session 2004-05, Pub Companies: for those comments, and he is entirely right. The potential Government Response to the Committee’s Second Report exists for this to be a really significant moment, but I do on Pub Companies, HC 434, the Seventh Report of the not think we can go any further than that yet. Business and Enterprise Committee, Session 2008-09, Pub Companies, HC 26, the Third Special Report of the The Secretary of State’s call for evidence was certainly Business and Enterprise Committee, Session 2008-09, enthusiastically answered. He wrote to seven different Pub Companies, HC 798, the Fifth Report of the Business, organisations to ask for their views on how self-regulation Innovation and Skills Committee, Session 2009-10, Pub was working, and he received 19 responses. That is a Companies: follow-up HC 138, the Eighth Report of the return rate of 271%, which is the sort of extraordinary Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, Session 2009-10, and implausible statistical feat that we generally expect Pub Companies: follow-up: Government Response to the to see in a Liberal Democrat “Focus” leaflet, but there Committee’s Fifth Report, HC 503, the Tenth Report of we have it, right at the heart of Government. the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, Session Before I get into the detail of how we can ensure that 2010-12, Pub Companies, HC 1369, and the Government’s the Government’s announcement makes a meaningful response, CM 8222, and the oral evidence taken before difference, I will reflect briefly on why the debate is so the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee on 6 December important to so many Members, their constituencies 2011, HC 1690-i of Session 2010-12.] and constituents and the economic and social fabric of our great country. Pubs are synonymous with our great Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Ihaveto island story, from fictional boozers brought to life, like inform the House that Mr Speaker has selected the the Rovers Return in “Coronation Street”, to pubs that amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. have gone down in history such as Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese, famously frequented by Samuel Johnson and 1.46 pm where Mrs Perkins and I had a very pleasant lunch just a few weeks ago. Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I beg to move, That this House notes the motion on pub companies passed by In almost every village, town or city in the land, and this House on 12 January 2012; recognises that a wide body of indeed in every Member’s constituency, there will be experts share the view that only a statutory code of practice which pubs that make us proud of our localities and say much includes a free-of-tie option with an open market rent review and about our areas, and which our constituents wish to see an independent adjudicator will resolve the contractual problems thrive. Britain’s pubs are not only important as key between the pub companies and their lessees; and calls on the hubs in the community, they are economically vital. Government to bring forward a timetable which will lead to that Last year, beer and pubs contributed £21 billion to UK statutory code being enshrined in law as soon as is practicably possible and before the end of 2013 at the very latest. GDP, and the Campaign for Real Ale has estimated that the average pub employs 11 people and contributes The whole House knows the importance of the Great £80,000 to the local economy. British pub to both our economic prosperity and our national identity. It is not every week that, in the time However, CAMRA recently revealed that around between the Opposition laying out the wording of a 18 pubs are closing every week, and countless more are motion and the debate on it, the Government announce fighting for their lives. As we know, when pubs close the that they will comply with most of the detail and accept cost of failure is felt not just in social terms but in entirely the spirit of it. We agree with, and are pleased economic terms, at a time when our faltering economy with, the Secretary of State’s acknowledgment that the can afford it least. There are now 2,582 fewer pubs than self-regulatory policy that the Government introduced in 2010, equating to 200 jobs lost for each week of the in November 2011 has failed, and that a statutory code year. is indeed the answer to the vexed issue of pubcos. The Government’s announcement yesterday that they Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): I agree with the would consult on a statutory code will give hope to all hon. Gentleman that 18 pubs closing a week is too those who have called for statutory regulation for nearly many. He will know, however, that under the previous two years. It would be churlish not to recognise that the Labour Government pubs were closing at a rate of 54 a Secretary of State has had the courage to admit that the week—four times as many. Will he apologise for the Government got it wrong. We may never know whether Labour party having let down pubs so badly? his decision was made in an attempt to stave off an embarrassing rebellion in this debate, whether the response Toby Perkins: That is a frankly disappointing contribution to his call for evidence finally convinced him that the from the hon. Gentleman. One key point that people game was up, or whether he simply reflected that the may reflect on is that there are now 2,582 fewer pubs Labour party, the industry and—let us be honest—just than in 2010. about everybody has been right all along. However, if this chance is seized, maybe no one will really mind why it happened. Andrew Griffiths: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 343 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 344

Toby Perkins: Let me respond to the hon. Gentleman’s There are 28,000 pubco pubs that operate on a tied first point before he makes a second one. Using his arrangements, and approximately another 10,000 are logic, we could eventually have only 15 pubs left and he owned by pubcos and breweries on a different basis. would say that was a great success because only 15 have They are the overwhelming majority of the industry. Of closed this week. As the overall stock reduces there have course, many things have placed stress on the industry. obviously been fewer closures. Nevertheless, there are In recent months we have had debates about the level of now 2,500 fewer pubs than in 2010. taxation, but the increasing cost of living, wage stagnation, the effects of the recession and the continued lack of Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Will the growth in our economy, and the competition for the hon. Gentleman give way? leisure pound, have all had an impact on the industry.

Toby Perkins: I will give way, but let me make a little Mr Andrew Turner: May I commend the Opposition progress first. I myself am an enthusiastic intervener on bringing forward these proposals and commend the and I want to give opportunities to Members to intervene, Government on doing so as well? Will the shadow but I know that this debate is considerably over-subscribed, Minister please inform the House what the cost implications so I must try to strike a balance. will be to the Government of allowing pubs to transfer An opportunity for fairness now exists in the industry, from a tied to a tie-free licence? and I pay tribute to all those who kept believing and making the case for the historic opportunity that we are Toby Perkins: That is a valuable question and one of considering today. The Sunday Mirror has been a loyal the things we will be investigating in more detail during friend to Britain’s publicans with its invaluable “Support the consultation. I think, however, that the costs will be Your Pubs” campaign. I also place on record my thanks minimal in comparison with the massive loss to the to Simon Clarke of the Independent Pub Confederation, Government from revenue going out of the industry as Dave Mountford and the GMB, Steve Corbett of Fair all these pubs close. If we recognise—as many of us Pint, and CAMRA for the work they have done to do—that the way in which pubcos have constituted dispel the myths propagated by some in the industry. their business model is having a dramatically damaging effect on the industry, we will see that the cost of those I will refer in due course to the work of the Business, closures will dwarf any cost to the Government from Innovation and Skills Committee, but I first want to such a transfer. acknowledge the excellent leadership on this issue from the Committee’s former Chair, the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), and the current Chair, Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): The hon. my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West Gentleman will be aware that many pubco lessees are (Mr Bailey). The hon. Member for Leeds North West receiving considerable amounts of tax credit because (Greg Mulholland) and the hon. Member for Northampton despite having a big turnover they are not earning South (Mr Binley), who is sadly not present in the enough. The taxpayer is currently subsidising the pub debate, have made a massive contribution to this issue, companies, which is outrageous. and my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) has steadfastly warned about the problems Toby Perkins: That is a typically excellent and important caused by a compulsory beer tie. As well has having point from the hon. Gentleman. Evidence shows that wonderful judgment, my right hon. Friend the Member more than 50% of landlords with tied pubs earn less for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) and my hon. than £15,000 a year. That is shocking to many people Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) who know the huge hours that many publicans put in. have also played a significant role. I have already mentioned some challenges facing the There are currently around 50,000 pubs in Britain industry, and although the health benefits of the smoking and around 28,000 are pubco pubs. ban are widely accepted, we must recognise that it had an impact on many pubs. We have seen aggressive Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): My hon. pricing from supermarkets as the off-trade increased its Friend has rightly named the heroes of this debate but market share. As if that was not enough, the trade is he should also name the villains—the pubcos and now reeling from the news that I am on the wagon for companies such as Punch Taverns. He will be familiar January. I have not touched a drop for eight days, with my constituents Joe and Betty Hynes, who had to 13 hours and about 37 minutes. close one of their pubs—the other is under threat—because As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth of the predatory activities of Punch Taverns. Had the and Dearne mentioned, pub companies have been the statutory code come in earlier, many pubs, including subject of four Select Committee hearings in seven theirs, might not have closed. Are the Government years, and on each occasion the big pub company lobby responsible for the delay that has taken place? said that this time the steps they would put in place would really make a difference. The scrutiny that the Toby Perkins: My hon. Friend understandably feels Committee has given the issue, and the tempered and incredibly passionate about the experiences of people in responsible way in which it has attempted to work with his constituency and the impact that this issue has had the industry, demonstrates our Select Committee system on real people’s lives and his community. That is why we at its very best. are having this debate and so much research has gone The previous Government deserve tremendous credit into it, and why we are now in a more positive position for their empowerment of the Business, Innovation and than a couple of months ago. He is right to raise that Skills Committee on this issue. They recognised the point. The evidence suggesting that how the industry expertise and diligent consideration that went into the was operating was wrong is unanswerable. reports and trusted the Committee to judge whether a 345 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 346

[Toby Perkins] as the promoter of a private Member’s Bill on pubcos, my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg statutory code was the answer. It is worth reminding Mulholland), as the leader of the all-party save the pub ourselves that throughout Labour’s time in office, the group, and the Ministers—the Secretary of State for Committee’s recommendation was to give self-regulation Business, Innovation and Skills and the Under-Secretary time to work. Its verdict that the final chance for of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. self-regulation to work had passed came in summer Friend the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo 2011, but until that time it never called for regulation to Swinson)—who preside over this happy occasion, when be brought in. Therefore, any claim that this issue it looks very likely that the statutory code will be should have been dealt with years ago is unreasonable introduced? because the Government were working on a cross-party basis with the Committee and the all-party save the pub Toby Perkins: I was with the hon. Gentleman for a group. Everyone attempted to give the industry every bit. I have referred to one of his hon. Friends, but if he possible opportunity to put its house in order before is disappointed that I did not mention him, I apologise. going down the route of regulation. I do not mean to be ungallant, but the Under-Secretary’s first contribution to the debate was to tell the House Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con) rose— that self-regulation was working and there was nothing else to say on pubs. Andrew Griffiths rose— The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Toby Perkins: I will give way to the hon. Member for Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson) rose— Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley), and then I will give the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) Toby Perkins: I do not know quite how the Under- another stab. Secretary has got into the position of taking credit, but we might be about to find out. Sir Peter Bottomley: I declare that I am a member of CAMRA. Without getting into party politics, can we Jo Swinson: It might be helpful to the House to agree that to compete effectively, people running a pub clarify that I did not make the contribution the hon. must be able to buy their supplies at market price, not a Gentleman describes to the House or anything else. I rigged higher price, and they must pay market rents am not sure where he gets his information. rather than rigged rents that are higher? Toby Perkins: I will be talking about the quotes Toby Perkins: We absolutely can agree on that. I hope attributed to the Under-Secretary by the Morning Advertiser. Ministers hear that message—it is precisely the principle She is welcome to take the paper to court if they are not of the motion on which we will vote shortly, and I true, but it says that she said that, so I was working on welcome the opportunity to see the hon. Gentleman in that basis. the Division Lobby. He makes the point very well. The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) Andrew Griffiths: I recognise what the hon. Gentleman referred to the role of the Secretary of State, who made says—that the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee it clear when appearing before the Business, Innovation did not call for statutory regulation in its reports—but and Skills Committee on 20 July 2010 that he would does he not think that the Labour Government needed honour the previous Government’s commitment. I have to have done something in their 13 years in government, no idea why he did not honour that commitment—it when more than 9,000 pubs closed? should have been honoured 18 months ago. Perhaps it was naivety or a generosity of spirit that does him Toby Perkins: Many challenges, to which I have alluded, credit—the belief that, this time, the pubcos would faced the industry during the previous Government’s know that the Government were serious. I do not know, term. In the last two or three years of the Government, but we should be clear that the delay has been costly for we had the recession and people were stretched, and in the industry and catastrophic for some victims. times before the recession, people’s habits were changing. Let no one say that the pubcos were not given long Pubcos were operating in the way I have described, but enough or that there has been a rush to legislate. Make the Labour Government attempted to give them the no mistake: when the Committee said that statutory opportunity to put their house in order. I believe that regulation was needed, it was the reluctant conclusion the hon. Gentleman is of the view—I apologise if I am of Members who had taken every possible step to avoid wrong—that the pubcos should have been given longer. making that recommendation. Given the breadth of That was his view when we debated pubcos about a year support for the Committee’s stance, it is hardly surprising ago. Members on both sides of the House accept that that there was dismay when the previous Minister, the pubcos were part of the problem and that the previous right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), Government attempted to give them the chance to do decided instead a year ago to give the pubcos yet things right, so it is difficult for him to criticise the another final chance. previous Government for doing so. Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I hope the Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I acknowledge Morning Advertiser has a robust legal department, because that the deadline for self-regulation was June 2011, but the hon. Gentleman might want to discuss how he was in the spirit of giving cross-party credit, will the hon. quoted in December 2012 on the Labour party’s lack of Gentleman acknowledge the contribution to those commitment to legislate—if self-regulation had been campaigns made by Liberal Democrats, including me, proved to have failed—before the general election. I am 347 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 348 not clear whether the Labour party’s position has moved notification of Department for Business, Innovation swiftly since December, but I agree with him, Ministers and Skills questions to be answered on 8 November and and all hon. Members that we want regulation. We are saw that four of my hon. Friends had tabled questions going to get it, so I wish he would stop trying to attack on pubcos and the Government’s failure to live up to individual Ministers who have been working to get the motion passed by the House. Between Monday and something delivered. Thursday of that week, the Secretary of State chose to conduct his call for evidence. On 20 December, the Toby Perkins: Perhaps we could have a group hug at Labour party gave notice of its intention to call this the end of the debate, but it is important at this stage to debate. Yesterday, less than 24 hours before the debate, lay out the history of what has happened. I do not the Government made the announcement that we are intend to attack Ministers. I put on record at the time discussing. That is the recent history. and continue to hold the view that a considerable mistake was made 12 to 18 months ago. At the same time, I give Sir Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): Will my credit to the Secretary of State for being big enough to hon. Friend give way? admit that and to come to the House and say, “We got it wrong; now we will get it right.” Every Government in history have made mistakes. At least the Secretary of Toby Perkins: I have come to an entirely natural State has had that courage. That is a balanced view. breaking point, so I am delighted to give way.

Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): I am glad my hon. Sir Tony Cunningham: All hon. Members welcome a Friend says that, because the debate is not about playing statutory code, but I hope my hon. Friend agrees that party politics, but about agreeing a course of action to there is no point having one unless it has teeth. A save our pubs. In the past five years, we have lost nine statutory code must have the requisite teeth. pubs in Kirkby and Sutton, and I do not want to lose another nine in the next five years, so I am pleased the Toby Perkins: That is an excellent point—it is so House has come together to agree measures. One pub, good that I intend to make it myself shortly. I agree the Red Lion in Bagthorpe, was particularly important entirely with my hon. Friend. to me last year—it was where my partner proposed to me. You will note, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I have thus far been unremittingly positive in my contribution, Toby Perkins: There is barely a dry eye in the House. but even I have my limits. Even my naturally sunny If I am any judge, the fact that my hon. Friend is disposition cannot conceal the painful truth of the spending more time in Ashfield is considerably good challenges that the Secretary of State faces if his optimistic news for the pub industry close to her. announcement is to deliver change. The stipulation of the principle that a tied licensee should be no worse off Several hon. Members rose— than a free-of-tie licensee will inform the interpretation of decisions made by the Royal Institution of Chartered Toby Perkins: I am going to crack on. Surveyors. The advice that guidance should be interpreted In summing up the debate a year ago, the former in the light of the principle is an extraordinarily welcome Minister claimed that he had come up with the toughest step. Beyond rents, however, it is hard to see how that self-regulatory regime imaginable. Whatever hon. Members’ principle can be assured without the freeing up of the perspective, surely none can believe that that was true. market that would happen if a free-of-tie option were The code did not include the free-of-tie option, which is offered to all new or renewed contracts. Surely, it is only consistently cited as the most significant factor. It did the combination of fair rents and freedom to buy where not include the principle of tied lessees being no worse the landlord chooses—tied if they wish, free if they do off or an independent adjudicator, and it did not deliver not—that frees the industry from the shackles of the an advisory service. The organisations that were formed pubcos. were hopelessly compromised. How could anyone possibly believe that that was the toughest regime imaginable? Let me make it clear, we are not calling for the end of the tie. We support the Government’s decision to restrict In case anyone believes the House did not do its duty, these measures to companies with more than 500 pubs, let us recall the House’s view at the time. I said in the and recognise that some pubcos use the tied arrangement debate a year ago that there was a cross-party consensus responsibly. We also value the small family breweries in that Members of all parties agreed that the Government and recognise the important role the tie plays for them. were wrong. To a man and woman, not a single Member That is why we support a genuine free market option for dissented to the motion that only a statutory code with the major pub-owning companies that allows for a a free-of-tie option and an open-market rent review free-of-tie option, with fair rent or a tied option, to be would resolve the problem. chosen by the landlord. It is impossible to see how the That is exactly the same request that the Opposition Secretary of State’s proposals will not be compromised respectfully make today. The right hon. Member for without that. Kingston and Surbiton did not vote against the motion, In the initial press release issued at 1.40 pm yesterday, and nor did the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister note 7 read: or any Member of the House, yet despite the vote, the Government seemed to believe that that was that. On “The Code will not mandate, as some campaigners have suggested, 20 October 2012, the Under-Secretary declined in an a ‘free of tie option with open market rent review’. Neither will it abolish the beer tie. Evidence strongly suggests that the tie itself is interview in The Publican’s Morning Advertiser—soitis not the issue—it is in fact a valid business model and its removal alleged—to take action, saying that self-regulation was would significantly harm the British brewing industry. It is the working and that the Government had delivered on abuse of the tie in certain circumstances that is causing the problem. all their commitments. Two weeks later, she received The Code will ensure that pub companies use the tie responsibly.” 349 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 350

[Toby Perkins] The Pubs Independent Rent Review Scheme is similarly discredited. Of the five independent reviewers in London, By 4.37 pm, less than three hours later, an amended it appears that four have clear conflicts of interest as press release had omitted note 7 and there was no businesses that provide services to the big pubcos. I can mention of the free-of-tie option. This is no way to run provide the Secretary of State with specific details of a whelk stall, much less take crucial decisions on a vital their links, if he is unaware of them, but suffice it to say and struggling industry. The central part of this whole that there is considerable room for improvement. The issue was ruled out at 1 o’clock, but by 4.37 pm was BII’s own financial position is described as “pretty apparently back on the table. grim” by its chairman, and its dwindling membership suggests distrust about its relationship with pubcos and the potential reliance on them. We understand that the Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): My proposed overarching body that will look after each of hon. Friend is absolutely right to push this crucial issue. those organisations will be similarly compromised. The He is also right to say that the issue is not necessarily Guild of Master Victuallers and the Association of about pubcos, and that for some pubs it is a viable Licensed Multiple Retailers were apparently being offered business model. The real worry, however, is that without places on the organisational board in return for signing a free-of-tie option, irresponsible pubcos will just continue up to the discredited original framework code. to use this business model as nothing short of a savings- stripping exercise. The Secretary of State laments that the measures taken 14 months ago have not led to a culture change in Toby Perkins: I could not agree more with my hon. the industry. How did anyone possibly think that they Friend, who makes the point extremely well. would do so when they required so little of the pubcos? We should remember that the Secretary of State claimed I appreciate that yesterday was a bit of a day for the that his solution would be quicker, could be just as Secretary of State, but we could do with clarity on the effective, and would ensure that pub companies changed free-of-tie issue. Assuming that the new version is right, their mode of operations. why was note 7 there in the first version? Is the industry supposed to have confidence that the Secretary of State I have here the code of Enterprise Inns. Members will has not made his mind up when the thoughts in his be interested to know that it has various provisions that mind, wildly at odds with the view of this House and all were cited by the British Beer and Pub Association to established thought in the industry, are so clearly exposed? the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills as I am assuming that it was not a typo, and that a monkey “immediate improvements” to the version 5 framework did not arrive at his keyboard and randomly tap away code. They were copied and pasted by the Department 81 words in what appear to be an order. If it is not a into the Government response in December 2011. There mistake, someone wrote them and wrote them for a is abolition of upward-only rent reviews; training availability; reason. I hope the Secretary of State will respond to the access to information on the pub—letting details, trading point and say why that note came out initially. information, rent calculations and time scales for taking up occupation. There is availability of the price list. All There are other significant challenges with the way those steps were supposed to be the big improvements the system is currently operating. On independent advice, that the Minister had wrung out of the pubcos. However, the British Institute of Innkeeping advice service, which that is Enterprise’s code from 2002. All that is already was promised for July 2012, still does not exist, and there—not “immediate improvements”at all. The previous there would be questions about its independence if it Minister also said that the code would rebalance risk did. Meanwhile, the truly independent Pubs Advisory and reward within the industry. Members will be aware Service, a voluntary organisation, is under-resourced that at the meeting of the all-party save the pub group and steps must be taken to strengthen awareness of it the balance of risk and reward between the pubcos and and to retain its independence. The Pubs Independent their lessees was not, in the view of the BBPA, something Conciliation and Arbitration Service is not viewed as in which it had any role. independent at all. It is funded and dominated by the big pubco lobby. It is also there to see if the pubcos are The challenges facing the Secretary of State are significant adhering to the entirely inappropriate and inadequate if he is to deliver the real change that Labour is calling codes that currently apply. for in this debate. He has made a start. If, having I met Alan Yorke yesterday, the first person to go started, he continues to follow the courage of his convictions, through the PICAS process. He described it as shambolic, he will find that Her Majesty’s Opposition will do intimidatory and not remotely independent. He tells me everything they can to help to get a meaningful code on that he felt that it was entirely beholden to the pubco the statute book as quickly as possible. We will work with which he was in dispute, and, despite his winning with the Government, but their response must pass the case, the successful attempts by the pubco to delay three simple but key tests. First, will the statutory code the process resulted in him losing the pub before the include a free-of-tie option and a guest beer right? case was heard. He is now being pursued through the Secondly, will it deliver fair rents? Thirdly, will the courts for back rent from the pubco, despite its never independent adjudicator and the independent advice completing the task that he had originally sought action service work properly? It appears from comments made on. With all the problems that the Secretary of State has by the Secretary of State that there is real potential for identified, how can he possibly be satisfied with PICAS? delivery on the rents and the adjudicator and the advice Yet yesterday he described it as working well, with two service. However, there is a lack of clarity on the beer tie of the three cases that have gone in front of it winning and a guest beer right, both of which are central standards their case. Mr Yorke’s case is one of those that won; that a whole range of organisations will be asking the sometimes winning does not feel so great. Government to meet. 351 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 352

Let me make it clear that if the Government shirk I would like to say that this is a victory for Parliament, their responsibility and the situation remains as it is for the Select Committee system and, above all, for today, when the next Labour Government come to pubs themselves. power in 2015 we will introduce the regulation. However, this Government should introduce what we have called Vince Cable: That is absolutely right. I am not sure for today. The British pub stands on the precipice. The that being tribal about this is very helpful. My hon. industry has failed the fairness test and it falls to this Friend chaired the Select Committee when it produced Government—or to the next Government—to have the a succession of highly creditable reports that were bravery to do what is right. We will not fail the British subsequently built on by the work of the hon. Member pub; we hope the Government will not either. I commend for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and his colleagues. the motion to the House. Indeed, Members across the House, whether Conservative, Labour or Lib Dem Members, including my hon. Friends 2.18 pm the Members for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), and others (Vince Cable): I beg to move an amendment, to leave have all played an important part. out from “House” to the end of the Question and add: I realise that, given that this is an Opposition day, the “recalls its Resolution of 12 January 2012 on pub companies; Opposition spokesman could not resist a bit of politics, recognises that a wide body of experts share the view that only a but I would make two simple points to him. I think he statutory code of practice and an independent adjudicator will entered the House in 2010, along with many of his resolve the contractual problems between the pub companies and Front-Bench team, and I get the sense sometimes that their lessees; calls for a statutory code, which would enshrine in for some people 2010 is year zero, when history began. law both an overarching fair dealing principle and the fundamental principle that a tied licensee should be no worse off than a There is a tendency to forget what happened before. As free-of-tie licensee; and believes that the consultation will establish he acknowledged, the Select Committee first investigated how best to do this, as well as producing proposals for a strong this subject in 2004, and despite his contempt for the adjudicator with the power to arbitrate disputes, investigate breaches self-regulatory approach, the last Government persisted of the code and impose sanctions, including financial penalties with it for six years. They decided in February 2010, for the most severe breaches, as soon as is practicably possible.” shortly before the election, that stronger action was I welcome the opportunity to debate this issue, which needed, but it was too late to do anything. I think many of us come to as constituency MPs. We I know the Opposition think that people will be have pubs in our constituencies, many of which have swinging their Toby jugs on the basis of the speech by had serious difficulties with pubcos, and have faced real the hon. Member for Chesterfield, but he had the hardship and loss. We also recognise that this is an unfortunate experience, which several of us have had, of important industry for the economy, with 50,000 small being misquoted—possibly—by The Publican’s Morning businesses employing several hundred thousand people, Advertiser, when he told it on 13 December that he could many of whom are very badly paid. For many of us, “not commit to a manifesto pledge…until 2015, and only if the pubs are an important community asset. That is the self-regulation agreement has failed”. context in which we operate. So the hyperbolic tone of his speech does not reflect Our approach was triggered in October, when I appeared where he was as little as a month ago. before the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills. The members of the Committee raised their None the less, we are where we are. As my hon. concerns about how the self-regulatory approach was Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff) working. As a consequence of that discussion, I immediately said, great credit should be given to the parliamentary wrote to the industry for evidence on what was happening. system. We all now understand the need for stronger Several things have clearly changed. The approach adopted action through a statutory code. The culture change last year had produced some results. The independent that we all wanted did not happen, and the simply fact arbitration service, PICAS, had been set up and, as the is that although some pub companies have behaved hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) described, well—it is important to acknowledge that—in too many in two of the three cases referred to it, it found against cases there has been exploitation and a squeezing of the pubcos, and version 5 of the industry framework tenants and lessees, causing real hardship. It is worth code was incorporated into contracts at the end of 2011. noting that many of the small businesses involved—about It was clear, however, from the evidence—the half of tied tenants—are existing on incomes of £15,000 19 submissions—that the changes had not gone far or less. enough. For example, very little effort had been made to notify tenants and lessees about their rights under the new HeatherWheeler(SouthDerbyshire)(Con):Icongratulate system. That was an example of the lack of implementation the right hon. Gentleman on yesterday’s press releases under the voluntary code. After consultation with and the great announcement. This is a hugely difficult colleagues, therefore, I wrote yesterday to the Chair of topic. South Derbyshire, which is next to Burton, is the Select Committee to inform him that I wished to enmeshed in the brewing business. Indeed, my husband establish a statutory code and to proceed with public worked for brewers for 40 years, so it has been a lifelong consultation. journey for us. We have seen fantastic pubs, such as the Old Talbot in Hilton, going under because of these Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con): I join the difficulties with the tie, but I am grateful to hear that the chorus of approval for the decision the Secretary of statutory consultation will relieve pubcos with fewer State just outlined to the House, and in the spirit of the than 500 pubs. Family pub companies work this very intervention from the right hon. Member for Wentworth well. It is a model that ought to work; it is the extremes and Dearne (John Healey) and of my favourite proverb, that need to be dealt with. Perhaps that can be tweaked “Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan”, in the consultation. 353 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 354

Vince Cable: Yes, that is an extremely good, balanced Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. statement of the factors we have to take into account This is a very short debate and many Members wish to here. The hon. Lady is right that we propose to deal speak, but some of them are repeatedly intervening on with the larger pub companies—those with more than the Secretary of State. It would be good if, first, interventions 500 pubs. We will be consulting on that, but that is the could be short, and secondly, those wishing to speak approach we intend to adopt. could be a little more disciplined, given that there is already a five-minute time limit on Back-Bench speeches. Greg Mulholland: I congratulate my right hon. Friend At this rate, that is going to go down. warmly on this wonderful announcement for Britain’s pubs. I urge him to emphasise, however, that there are Vince Cable: I am afraid that I cannot offer the hon. many small pub companies doing well, taking on pubs, Gentleman the assurances he wants on beer duty. I employing people and expanding, which shows that the supported the Government’s approach to the taxation. problem is not with the pubs or companies, but with On his drinking habits, I will only say that, like several the giant lease pub companies that have abused both the of us, I am still haunted by having signed the temperance model and their position. pledge aged 11.

Vince Cable: Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. I John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I shall say more about this later, but the microbreweries apologise to the Secretary of State, because I will have and innovative breweries are a major growth industry, to leave for another debate soon. There is a sense of expanding well and offering a more varied service. They urgency in my constituency about his matter, however, are a great success story and we do not want to do so will he give an indication of the time scale for the anything with this new approach that will undermine introduction of a statutory code? them. Vince Cable: We want to get on with this as quickly as possible. We have to launch a consultation, receive the John Healey: I welcome the Secretary of State’s results and then act on them, hopefully over the spring. commitment to a statutory code of practice, but would That is the time horizon we are looking at. he also accept that the viability of hundreds of pubs is damaged by high and escalating beer duty? Will he ensure, in his Department’s budget submission, that Andrew Griffiths: I am mindful of your remarks, BIS Ministers also argue for an end to high beer tax and Madam Deputy Speaker, but I want to ask a simple inflation-busting increases and for an end to the system question. The press release says that this will apply to that favours foreign-produced wine over British-brewed companies with more than 500 tied pubs. There are beer? 52,000 pubs in the country and hundreds of companies, brewers and businesses that own pubs. Out of all of those, to the nearest two, will the Secretary of State tell Vince Cable: The right hon. Gentleman is right that, me how many companies this legislation will affect? as the Opposition spokesman acknowledged, a variety of factors have hit the pub industry, besides the structure Vince Cable: I am not going to guess, but it is a rather of ownership. I do not know whether the right hon. small number. Gentleman was a Treasury Minister in 2008 when the beer duty escalator was introduced. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Basically, the problem in London—certainly inner London—is John Healey indicated dissent. property values. Many pubs close because pub companies and others make a great deal of money out of selling Vince Cable: The right hon. Gentleman shakes his them and moving on into residential accommodation. head. Nevertheless, many of us in the House voted for My borough council is trying to introduce a planning those beer duty increases, so I cannot disown them at policy that does not allow an automatic change of use. this stage. They are an important source of revenue, as Is there anything the Secretary of State can do to his Government, as well as ours, realised. preserve what are very important community assets from property speculation, beyond what is already Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): I cannot confess happening to the pub industry through this lack of to being a great beer drinker, although I supported the regulation? Shoulder of Mutton in Assington, Suffolk, where I spent Christmas with my daughter—so I did my bit for Vince Cable: As I understand it, there is in any event the economy to make up for the hon. Member for a specialist use class under the planning regime, which, Chesterfield (Toby Perkins), who clearly has not done as it currently stands, provides a degree of protection. We his bit to support the industry. In response to the right have a programme, which one of my ministerial colleagues hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), introduced a month ago, for supporting community I would like to say that the escalator was introduced by pubs; I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman’s the last Government. This Government are continuing local council and community are taking advantage of it, however, and it is unquestionably doing serious damage that. to something that everyone in the House really values in our communities, whether rural or urban. Fuller, Smith Toby Perkins: Further to the question that the hon. and Turner, a fantastic family-owned business, tells me Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) asked, can the that, out of a turnover of £304 million a year, £114 million Secretary of State clarify whether he is taking purely —37%—goes in tax of one form or another. Will my about pubcos with more than 500 pubs or about pub- right hon. Friend address that matter with the Chancellor? owning companies with 500 pubs? 355 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 356

Vince Cable: I have just checked the numbers: it was the need to act to protect the weaker parties. That is not two, but six companies that are likely to be affected precisely the position we have now reached with the under the current proposal. pubcos. We took the view in 2011 that they should be Let me go back over some of the salient facts that led put on probation, with a strengthened voluntary code. us to this position. We gave them every chance, but we concluded that there was not enough progress. We therefore decided to establish, Toby Perkins: With respect, the Secretary of State did subject to consultation, the statutory code and an not get the opportunity to answer my question. Are we independent adjudicator, as I have described. I am talking about pubcos or pub-owning companies? disappointed—the Labour party probably is too—that a long period of trying to get a voluntary process has Vince Cable: I think we are talking essentially about not worked sufficiently. I stress that we are not starting the latter—although most of the abuses have happened from the standpoint of a competitive market; rather, we in the relatively small number of pubcos that happen to are often talking about relationships that are almost have a particular business model—but as I have said, we feudal in character. We want to introduce a relationship will define the precise range of companies that will be that is genuinely market based, where there is genuine covered in the consultation. competition and a genuine choice for people entering the industry. There has been a contraction of the industry, as the hon. Gentleman acknowledged, from 70,000 pubs in Let me describe more specifically how we envisage 1980 to 50,000 today. The financial crisis brought into the code operating. It will draw on the existing framework stark relief the slow process of sectoral decline. At code—we are currently on version 5 and there is a present, 18 pubs are closing every week—that is, 18 net; discussion about version 6—but be strengthened to some are opening. Various factors have aggravated the include an overarching “fair dealing” provision and the problems of the industry—we have discussed one or fundamental principle that a tied tenant should be no two already. The beer duty escalator is one and the worse off than a free-of-tie tenant. I recognise that those outlawing of smoking is another. Many of us supported concepts, especially the first, will need legal clarification. that measure on public health grounds; none the less, it drove away a certain amount of the clientele. Having Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): Can the Secretary voted for those things, I would not criticise them, but we of State explain why the Government have taken the all have to acknowledge that the problems of the pub view that the new code will not contain the requirement industry are multiple, and the structure of the industry, for there to be a “free of tie” option, as opposed to the which is what we are concerned with in this debate, is formulation he has just expanded on? only one of those factors. Vince Cable: We have not come to a final view on However, it is undoubtedly the case that the activities that. That is something the consultation process can of the pubcos, with their highly leveraged business model, elicit. As I will set out, and as I think the hon. Gentleman’s have intensified the crisis. These companies were established spokesman said too, there is no fundamental problem in the 1990s and started to attract comment and criticism with the tie—there are other ways of dealing with rental a decade ago. Like an awful lot of other business exploitation, for example. The question whether to give models that were constructed in the long, artificial, that offer and build it into the code is a perfectly good debt-based boom, there did not appear to be a great question—there are strong arguments on both sides—and many problems at the time. With the banking collapse I want the consultation to help us to come to a conclusion and subsequent recession, the weakness of companies on it. with high debt-to-equity ratios has been rather brutally The position I have set out will be particularly significant exposed. What we have seen in recent years is the pubcos for rent, because the consultation will propose that the trying to retrieve their financial position at the expense guidance issued by the Royal Institution of Chartered of their tenants. We are all familiar with well managed, Surveyors must be interpreted in the light of the principle popular pubs in our constituencies being driven to the I have described. The code will also need to be strengthened wall by, frankly, exploitative financial practices. on areas such as gaming machines, but that is something else we can explore in the consultation. Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): Enterprise Inns announced over Christmas that it would go from Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I welcome 6,000 pubs to 5,200 over the next three years. It will be yesterday’s announcement, but will the Secretary of important to get the code of practice in place quickly, State concede that there are other issues where the because some of those will be the tied pubs. relationship between the pubco and the tenant is biased one way? They include, for instance, portable appliance Vince Cable: They will, and the terms of sale under testing—or PAT testing—of electrical equipment in which that pubco, along with others, is disposing of pubs and insurance, all of which are forced through by those pubs is another important element in the protection the pubco at above the market rate. I am concerned that that we now propose to offer. the pubcos might inflate those things to cope with cuts The pattern of behaviour we see in this area—where in other areas of their income. there is a serious imbalance between the contracting parties in the business relationship—is not unique to Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman is right. One of the the pub industry. We see something similar with the problems that has occurred in the past is that any banks and small business, as has been exposed by the concession on beer prices would be offset by rent or vice derivatives scandal, and in the relationship between versa. He is right that areas such as insurance are supermarkets and the farmers who supply them. In important elements of the package, and they would both cases, Parliament and Government have accepted certainly be covered by the adjudicator. 357 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 358

[Vince Cable] closure rate was lower in tied pubs than in free-of-tie pubs. That is the case regardless of whether we look at The proposed adjudicator will be based on the model the gross or net closure rate, the latter of which takes of the groceries code adjudicator, which was approved into account churn by pubcos. Thirdly, the tie does not by the House recently. I propose that the adjudicator harm consumer choice. In fact, it sustains and supports will have the following powers and functions: to arbitrate the British brewing industry, a successful export industry disputes between large pub companies and their licensees; that has more than doubled since the year 2000. to carry out investigations based on complaints received; to have wide-ranging powers to require information Martin Horwood: I echo what my right hon. Friend is from pubcos during an investigation and, when an saying about the tie. It has been a valuable source of investigation finds that a pub company has breached investment for some pubs in my constituency, including the code, to impose sanctions on it, including financial the Royal at Charlton Kings and the Tivoli. The problem penalties in the case of severe breaches; to publish is in the power relationship between local landlords and guidance on when and how investigations will proceed the big pubcos. The “no worse off” principle is an and how the enforcement powers can be used; to advise interesting point of debate, but I would still advocate pub companies and licensees on the code; and to the free-of-tie option, and I strongly welcome my right recommend changes to the code. The consultation will hon. Friend’s openness to considering that option during propose that the new adjudicator, like the groceries the consultation. code adjudicator, be funded by an industry levy—in this case on the pubcos—with those who breach the code Vince Cable: My colleague is absolutely right to say paying a proportionately higher levy. In order to place that this is about power relationships and how we can the most proportionate burden on business, my current prevent them from spilling over into abuse. As I have thinking is that the new regulatory regime should apply said, I have an open mind about the precise legal to all pub companies with a tied estate of more than mechanisms that we shall use. 500 tied pubs. As I have indicated to the House, we are currently talking about six operations. Greg Mulholland: Will my right hon. Friend look again at the Save the Pub document, which shows that Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Just to be clear, will the the figures on pub closures are extremely misleading? He funding come from a levy only on the pub companies to must recognise that they were paid for by the pubcos’ which the code applies? association, the British Beer and Pub Association. Many pubs have been reclassified on closure as being free of Vince Cable: Yes, that is the intention. Our approach tie, having in some cases never operated as such. The figures would target the companies with the greatest buying clearly show that there are more free-of-tie pubs now power and exempt smaller companies, about which very than there were, and that tied business failure is huge— few complaints have been received. This, too, is a matter we want to pursue in the consultation. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. We must have brief interventions. Time is ticking on. One issue that I would like to clarify relates to the beer tie. Some campaigners, and the motion under debate Vince Cable: I would not want to cross swords with today, suggest that in order to be effective, we must my colleague on the statistics, which he knows extremely mandate that all pub companies must offer a free-of-tie well. He makes a compelling point. option with open market rent review. As I have just indicated to my opposite number, we have an open Returning to the issue of the success of the industry, mind on that matter and will be happy to look at it and particularly the small companies, the Office of Fair during the consultation. Trading found in 2010 that the market share of microbrewers had increased between 2004 and 2008, and that the volume of sales had grown by something in Toby Perkins: The Secretary of State must recognise the order of 50% in that period. We found out recently that the fact that the original press release ruled out the that the number of breweries in Britain had topped free-of-tie option will cause some to believe that he is 1,000, which is the highest level since the 1930s. not approaching this matter with an entirely open mind. Furthermore, as well as the tie being essential to family Will he explain how that happened? brewers such as Charles Wells or Fuller’s, the OFT also found that large pub companies that owned tied pubs Vince Cable: All I can say is that the final version, also bought a considerable volume from microbrewers which I approved and sent out, is the correct statement and regional brewers. Accordingly, the Government’s of where my colleagues and I stand on this. proposals are designed to address abuses of the tie, The evidence suggests that the tie, in itself, is not the through enshrining in the code the principle that a tied issue. It is a valid business model that is used responsibly tenant should be no worse off than a free-of-tie tenant, by companies large and small. It is clear, however, that while not impinging on the business practices of companies in some cases the tie is being abused, just as many other that are using the tie responsibly, as many do. business practices can be abused, and it is that abuse This is an industry in which many companies behave that we need to tackle, rather than the tie itself. well, in which seven out of 10 licensees would sign up There are good grounds for believing that the tie, as again with their pub company and in which there are such, is not the problem. First, the number of pubs has real examples of pub companies, brewers and tenants been declining steadily. The Beer Orders in 1989 and the working together to invest for the future. Unfortunately, pubco consolidation in the 1990s resulted in relatively parts of the industry have acted irresponsibly in squeezing little change in the rate of decline. Secondly, the figures their tenants, resulting in considerable personal, as well from the past three years, 2008 to 2011, show that the as economic, hardship for those who lose out. 359 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 360

That is why the Government are now going to consult objectives addressed. I want to make it clear that my on the strong, decisive step of introducing a strengthened Committee will certainly exercise such pester power in statutory code that will address the balance of risk and this instance. reward, as well as an independent adjudicator who can My Committee decided that insufficient progress had investigate on behalf of tenants and impose sanctions been made on this issue, and that a statutory approach on pub companies that persistently breach the code. As was the only way forward. The Secretary of State had I said to the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington previously undertaken to accept the Select Committee’s (John McDonnell), I intend to publish the consultation proposals, and we were rather disappointed when we soon. We hope that it will be completed in the spring were rebuffed with the token gesture of an offer to place and that it will be strongly welcomed by the House, as the existing code on a statutory basis. The Committee well as more widely by all those who work in, use or decided that that was insufficient, that it would not benefit from the pub industry. realise our objectives and that it would not address the problems we had identified. Several hon. Members rose— I subsequently applied for a debate through the Backbench Business Committee, which was heard almost Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. exactly a year ago. I was tempted to go for a confrontational There is a five-minute time limit on all Back-Bench approach, but decided that we might command more contributions, from now. support across the House if we gave ourselves a chance to see how the voluntary code was working. The House 2.45 pm duly obliged by passing a resolution to the effect that, after so many months, a committee would be set up to Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): review the working of the code. That was ignored by the Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker— Government, but I made it quite clear that the Select Committee would not ignore the matter. Indeed, when Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I beg your pardon, we questioned the Secretary of State in October, this Mr Bailey. We need to be sure what we are talking issue was raised and he was questioned very forcibly about. The original Question is on the Order Paper, about the progress that had been made. I give credit to since when an amendment has been proposed, as on the him for acknowledging that the hoped-for progress had Order Paper. The Question is that the original words not been made and saying that he would take steps to stand part of the Question. In my haste to get the look at the matter again. The commitment we have debate started, I omitted to say that. secured today is the outcome of that particular process. Let me repeat that this demonstrates what a Select Mr Bailey: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I Committee can do if it continues to apply pressure. will do my best to ensure that I know what I am talking about. All this is not due just to the role of the Select Committee, as a number of Members have shown a I welcome the debate and thank the Secretary of degree of commitment and tenacity on the issue to State for his letter to me yesterday and for his statement ensure that it never goes away. I mention the hon. to the House. I want to clarify why we have reached this Members for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) and position and to give the House the history of the for Northampton South (Mr Binley)—my colleague on matter. There have been four Select Committee reports the Select Committee, who unfortunately cannot be on this issue since 2004, and the one produced by my here today—and indeed the hon. Member for Cheltenham predecessor, the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Martin Horwood). That is to name just a few of a large (Peter Luff), was key to our reaching the current position. number of Members who have continually lobbied on It stated that the industry was not making the progress the issue. to which it had previously committed itself to making, that it should be given a further year and that, if it had In congratulating ourselves on getting to this point, it not made sufficient progress after that time, we should is important that we do not assume that getting a introduce a statutory code that would include provisions statutory code of practice will solve all the problems. for the free-of-tie option and the open market rent Some problems that the industry faces are beyond solving review. in any statutory code. None the less, such a code will go a long way to dealing with some of the sense of injustice Peter Luff: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for felt about the unfair balance of the relationship between the way in which he has carried forward the flame so the pub companies and licensees. The key question is effectively in this Parliament, following on from his whether today’s proposals will deal adequately with membership of the Select Committee during the previous that problem. one. Does he agree that the proposals we are debating Much has been said about the balance of risk and today illustrate what can happen when Select Committees reward and the free-of-tie option. I am interested in the return to a subject again and again, rather than simply concept floated by the Secretary of State about the fair producing a report and letting the matter drop? His deal provision. It is very important that this is defined determination has paid dividends. and well understood. Within the industry and among the licensees, there is a deep suspicion that a closeness Mr Bailey: The hon. Gentleman makes a valuable with the Royal Society of Chartered Surveyors and point. One of the most effective ways in which Select sometimes the pub companies has led to artificially Committees can operate is to consider an issue, then high rents, which has removed any advantage that the monitor the Government’s performance and commitments free-of-tie option might otherwise have had. This comes on it time and again, so that at the end of the day, sheer down again to the issue of getting a fair deal and the pester power can prevail in getting the Committee’s balance of risk and award. Without a transparent and 361 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 362

[Mr Bailey] I congratulate the Government on yesterday’s announcement about a new statutory code and an accepted basis for rent reviews, the advantage of free of independent adjudicator to investigate disagreements tie disappears. We could end up with a balanced relationship between pubs and their owners. This is needed to ensure between tied and free of tie, with both being profoundly fair play among the biggest players in the industry, as unfair when it comes to the balance between the pub the code will apply only to pub companies with more companies and licensees. than 500 tied publicans. This ensures that small independent I welcome the opportunity for the Select Committee breweries are not unintentionally caught within the to contribute to dealing with those issues, and I welcome scope of the code. If Mr Ham were still running his the Secretary of State’s commitment to be open-minded pub, he might have been able to stay in business and about the possibility of having a free-of-tie and open even perhaps make a profit. In this way, the Government market rent review, but I come back to the point that we may well be able to save the livelihoods of thousands of must have a transparent and robust process for rent people, including constituents of mine, so I would like reviews that can be accepted across the industry. This to say thank you to the Secretary of State. particular piece of legislation will not solve everything, However, we need to look at the business ethos of but it will go a long way to doing so. these large pub companies. It would be good for pub companies to operate like another of my constituents, 2.53 pm Mr James Staughton, who is the managing director of the St Austell brewery. He operates a different business Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): The model to the pub companies, allowing his tenants to be pub industry is exceptionally important to the British a lot more flexible. He puts more emphasis on protecting economy, contributing around £21 billion to the UK’s and nurturing family breweries and traditional tenancy GDP and supporting about 1 million jobs. Pubs are agreements. This is a genuine business partnership: even often the only social hub for residents across the country, though it is still a business, it would not think twice and they are often at the heart of local villages in my before reducing the rent or even offering premises rent-free South East Cornwall constituency. I have kept in regular to a hard-working licensee who is genuinely struggling. contact with the pub tenants in my constituency, and it Mr Staughton also operates a renewable three-year is clear that they have struggled. Some pubs have already tenancy agreement that is a relatively low-cost way of closed. setting up a business, and it requires less capital investment. One pub that has struggled is in my local village—the Furthermore, a licensee can give him notice at any time Devon and Cornwall inn in Millbrook. It was at this and with no financial penalty. That is different from the pub that I became the first Cornish MP to pull a pint large pub companies which offer long leases that are during the all-party group’s campaign last year, and it is mostly much more expensive. If a landlord or tenant a prominent part of local village life. The former licensee, wants to sell the business, they will have to find a buyer Mr Russell Ham, had to surrender his lease in May last mostly on the open market and agree a premium that is year and be released from his trading obligations. Part often far less than was originally paid. of the reason for him surrendering his lease was that the I understand that the changes were too late for Russell Devon and Cornwall inn was tied to and on lease from Ham, but it would be good for pub companies to one of the national pubcos, which applies to about half operate with a more human face—like the St Austell of UK pubs. brewery. Its pubs are thriving in comparison to others, and that is because of the genuine relationships with the Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): I licensees, which is what the larger pub companies are congratulate my hon. Friend on the role she has played lacking. in this campaign. Will she join me in paying tribute to I also want to take this opportunity to congratulate CAMRA, which has been tireless in supporting the the Government on putting small business at the very campaign, and to individuals such as Jeff Hoyle in my foundation of Britain’s economic recovery. In his recent constituency who have been lobbying MPs, making the autumn statement, the Chancellor announced that same strong case that she is reiterating? thousands of pubs will continue to benefit from paying no business rates, or a discounted rate, for another year, Sheryll Murray: Absolutely. CAMRA has done a as the small business rate relief holiday has been extended superb job in highlighting the issue to all politicians to April 2014. That will be of great help to our local from all parties. pubs, which we all want to succeed. About half of UK pubs are owned by pub companies— large property companies that lease pubs out to tenants to run as their own businesses. These pubs are contractually 2.59 pm obliged to buy their beer only from the pub company, preventing pub licensees from buying on the open market, Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): I am thus creating a monopoly. Russell Ham, the licensee at delighted to be taking part in this important debate. the Devon and Cornwall, was forced to pay a price for The beer and pub industries are an integral part of the alcohol he sold that was as much as 50% higher than the DNA of the country and our heritage past and he could have paid if it was sourced elsewhere—but the future, and pubs and clubs are part of our history. pubco insisted that he purchased it from them. However, Personally, I see myself as more a practitioner than a the situation seems to be improving gradually. The theorist in these matters: I made my first visit to a pub voluntary code of practice is operational and the gap at the age of 14, and as I approach my 60th birthday, I between those pub companies and some of the smaller think that I have a wealth of experience on pub-related more independent pub companies has been closing. issues. 363 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 364

I must caution the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew are difficulties involved. I met many tenants who had Griffiths), the chair of the all-party parliamentary beer been abused by pub companies—that is the only way in group, against being too partisan. I believe that both which to describe it—and left debt-ridden by their the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Member excesses. If we can introduce fair rents, fair operations for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) have set out fairly the and free, without-tie opportunities, we shall be taking history relating to the difficult problem of pub companies, an important step forward. which has been caused by only a small number of them. There are many successful pub company models: we There are many reasons for the closure of pubs over a need only look at Wetherspoon and Brewers Fayre. We number of years and, in particular, during the last few must deal with the issue of binge drinking, but I believe years. It has been largely due to the change in drinking that that is linked to pre-loading and supermarkets. habits and, indeed, the role of the supermarkets. We There are responsible licensees and responsible brewing have yet to deal with the problem of the availability of pub companies that operate ties properly. Such companies cheap supermarket booze, which the last Government are many and varied in Yorkshire, Theakston being an did not manage to sort out. People pre-load and then obvious example. There are micro-breweries such as end up at the pub, causing problems. When pubs and Saltaire and Salamander, in my constituency, which clubs remove those people, they may be faced with a bill offer a wide choice of market opportunities. from the police, and may also find themselves with a Urgency is the order of the day if the Department is reputation for inappropriateness that is, in fact, unfounded. to make progress. It is right that there should be Let me return to the subject of the pubcos. On consultation, but, as a former Minister, I know that Monday I received an e-mail from a constituent, who time scales can slip, and that officials and others can wrote: come up with barriers and ways of halting the progress “I’m planting a seed of real concern re the future of the that politicians want to make. I hope that that will not George & Dragon as a pub in Great Horton.” happen in this case. I believe that the work of the Select Great Horton is in my constituency. Committees, the all-party beer group and the Save the “The decision by Enterprise Inns to sell was announced over Pub Campaign has brought us where we are today, and Christmas. The current licensees, who’ve been there over 25 years, that today is a day for rejoicing. However, there is still a are leaving end of January. It’s a grade 2 listed building. I read job to be done, and I hope that we can do it together as that Enterprise are in the process of reducing their number of quickly as possible. pubs from 6,000 down to 5,200 over the next 3 years. Is there anything that can be done to keep this pub open, such an invaluable part of the fabric of life in Great Horton? I have been a 3.5 pm resident of Great Horton for the past 30 years and a regular customer at the pub.” Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): This is the second That is the real issue that we need to address. Pubs are occasion in just a few months on which the House has continuing to close, and the pubcos will use the cover of discussed the plight of the brewing and pub industries, time scales, consultations and the outcome of those and as on the first occasion, some interesting and consultations, which may require further action. Perhaps important contributions have been made. the Minister will be able to tell us whether primary or When I spoke in the debate organised by the Backbench secondary legislation will be needed. It is important for Business Committee, I argued strongly in favour of us to know what process will be required for the introduction self-regulation. I wanted to give the industry more time of a code of practice. Time is of the essence if we are to in which to put its house in order and get its act resolve this matter. together. Clearly my argument did not win the day, but I advanced it for a particular reason. I felt not only that Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): My hon. Friend is certain strides were being made and that at least some setting out the issues very clearly. There are 63 pubs in pub companies were beginning to get their act together, the towns and villages of my constituency, and I am but that the self-regulation that had been proposed keen to keep them there. Does he think that the action previously would protect all tenants—everyone in the proposed by both Front Benches will be strong enough industry who was running a pub. I fear that we are to prevent further closures? proposing legislation to tackle the actions of one or two companies, and I think that that is dangerous. Mr Sutcliffe: I hope so. As has already been said, I urge caution for two reasons. One is the fact that we pubs close for more than one reason, but I am hopeful are considering the creation of first-class and second-class that the united approach that Members have taken pubs. We are considering intervening in the business today, and the pace at which the Secretary of State model. We are proposing, through statutory regulation, wishes to operate, will send the pub companies the clear to force “tied-lease” companies with more than 400 message that we are watching what is going on and will pubs to offer a fair deal. We are proposing to regulate take a dim view of any tactics that expedite matters the way in which their rents are set within their estates. before we can bring about the resolution that we want. However, another company with 380 or 450 pubs will When I was the licensing Minister, I worked on not be regulated. I am not sure that the Government Cabinet Sub-Committees with my right hon. Friend the have thought this through in the context of competition Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) in and free markets. There are serious questions to be trying to find ways of stopping pub closures and—through asked. If we want fair dealing for tenants, should we not planning legislation, for instance—supporting community offer fair dealing to all companies that own pubs? As I pubs, particularly those in rural areas, because they said earlier, there are 52,000 pubs in the country, and we were hubs that people needed for social activities. We are intending to introduce legislation that affects only must to try to retain as many pubs as possible, but there some of them. 365 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 366

Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): last 12 years. In 2000, 14.5% of the retail price of a pint The hon. Gentleman is expressing a principled and, of beer was duty, whereas the proportion is now 15.4%, perhaps, a minority view. Is he now suggesting that the so it has hardly gone up at all. threshold should be lowered from 500, as opposed to our not introducing statutory regulation at all? Andrew Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman must be the only person who does not think that the last Labour Andrew Griffiths: The House is anxious not to overburden Government increased beer duty and introduced the smaller pub companies, particularly family brewers, beer duty escalator, and crippled pubs and the brewing and I would caution against that. However, I do not industry as a result. think that we have fully thought through the consequences My time is almost up, but I urge the Minister to think of what is being proposed. about what I have said.

Mr Bailey: Do not the issues raised by the hon. 3.13 pm Gentleman apply equally to the legislation on the groceries code adjudicator? Did he support that legislation? If so, Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): I am pleased to follow why can he not support the legislation that is being the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), who proposed now? made an interesting speech. He raised the issue of regulation, and the reason why this is a very important day is that the Government have finally decided to Andrew Griffiths: I do not think that family supermarkets regulate in this area. are an issue in this context. My second point relates to the self-regulatory code. Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): Today is an important What the Government are proposing is a two-tier system, day, but it is not as important as Friday will be. My hon. with the big boys in the first tier. There is some confusion Friend will be pleased to know that on Friday a pub in over what they mean by tied leases. The British Beer the town he grew up in, the Schooner, is to be reopened and Pub Association, for instance, thinks that this by me. applies to two companies, Punch Taverns and Enterprise Inns. If the Government are talking about tied and Ian Lucas: I am certain that that shameless piece of tenanted leases, that is not what they set out in their publicity for the good citizens of Gateshead will be fully press release yesterday, and it is not what the industry reported by the Evening Chronicle. It is a great pleasure thinks that they are talking about. There is a need for to be sitting beside my hon. Friend once again. the Minister to clarify what the Government are talking We will now be regulating in this area, but Governments about. of all political parties have tried all along to avoid All tenants can now go to arbitration, but the arbitration regulation. I used to have ministerial responsibility for system is funded by the industry as a whole, and large regulatory reform, and some Members on the Government companies such as Punch Taverns and Enterprise Inns Benches may be surprised to know that even among are paying the lion’s share of the cost of that self-regulatory Labour Ministers there is great resistance to introducing body. Those companies will not be prepared to pay to regulation. In that post, I always held to the principle be regulated twice: they will pay either for statutory that regulation should be a last resort, and that wherever regulation or for self-arbitration, but not for both, so I possible we should use non-statutory codes instead. wonder what will happen to the self-regulation system. Where I beg to differ with the hon. Member for Have the Government talked to the industry about the Burton is that I believe this is the time for us to regulate. implications of the big two or big six pulling out of The industry has had an enormous amount of time, funding the self-regulatory body? I also wonder how and has been given every opportunity, to avoid regulation. much pressure the industry will put on the smaller It has failed to respond to the numerous opportunities companies to sign up. I acknowledge that that is not that have been given. That is why the last Labour such a big issue, but everybody has signed up to the Government did not take the steps to regulate that this self-regulatory code, and that pressure will dissipate if Government have suggested we should have taken. In the Government’s new system is introduced. Legislation passing, it is ironic that virtually the whole House of is being proposed in order to tackle one or two problem Commons is united with the honourable exception of companies, but have the implications for the rest of the the hon. Gentleman in favour of introducing regulation industry been fully thought through? I urge the Minister and legislation. to address those concerns. We agree that regulation needs to be introduced There is another problem that our pubs and landlords because the voluntary approach has failed. That is face: the beer duty escalator. The amount of duty that certainly what I have been hearing for a long time from brewers and publicans are paying is killing pubs and licensees and tenants in Wrexham. Indeed, it was said at breweries. The biggest single thing we could do to help a meeting I held in Wrexham last summer with my good the industry is scrap the beer duty escalator. We have friend, my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich had a bit of a love-in with Opposition Front Benchers West (Mr Bailey), Chair of the Business, Innovation this afternoon, but it would be remiss of me not to and Skills Committee. We met local licensees and were point out the record of 13 years under a Labour told about the failure of the voluntary code. We were Government. They increased beer duty by 60%. gravely disappointed when the consensus reached in the House was not followed through. Toby Perkins: I have in front of me a document from The Secretary of State made a measured and sensible the House of Commons Library which shows the amount contribution today, which I welcome. The key issue is of duty as a percentage of retail price for each of the inequality of bargaining power between the pub companies 367 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 368 and the licensees, and it is reasonable for Government Martin Horwood: May I join my hon. Friend in to intervene. It is important that we encourage licensees paying tribute to the hon. Member for West Bromwich and everyone else involved in the brewing industry to West (Mr Bailey)? I am sure that the announcement will contribute to the consultation. Pubs are an important have come as some compensation for the shock defeat part of our local communities. There is strong demand of Cheltenham Town by Everton earlier this week. One for community meeting places, as the huge increase in of the best things about the Committee’s work has been the number of coffee shops in Britain over the past its willingness to return repeatedly to this issue and to 10 or 15 years demonstrates. Pubs can meet that demand, check on progress. Is that not a very good model for too, if we get this framework right. We have all done a other Select Committees to follow on other similar lot of work to get to the point we have now reached, but issues? we must not lose hold of the ball; we must carry it over the try line and achieve a truly positive outcome. Greg Mulholland: Indeed, it is an exemplary one and Wrexham Lager is a microbrewery that produces it shows the power of Select Committees. excellent local ale. That ale is served at the Bridge End Let us remind ourselves of the issue we are dealing inn in Ruabon in a neighbouring constituency, and the with, because although it is often presented as complicated, pub has been CAMRA pub of the year. Local micro- it is a simple one: after years of self-regulation and economies can grow as a result of brewers setting up twists and turns in this matter, the giant lease pub locally and working with local pubs to produce local companies still continue to take far more than is fair or produce for local people to consume with gay abandon. reasonable from pub profits. It is as simple as that; that That is the model we want to see. is the issue that has to be dealt with. I will come on to What is now happening is a great triumph for the address the point made by the vice-chair of the all-party House of Commons, and I pay tribute to everyone save the pub group, the hon. Member for Easington involved. This is a good day, and we should celebrate (Grahame M. Morris), as to precisely how we should what has been achieved, but we must also make sure try to do that. that we continue to take these matters forward. Let us remind ourselves of the incredible figure from the Select Committee survey: 67% of lessees with a 3.19 pm turnover of more than £500,000 were earning only £15,000 a year or less—that is a 3% return. I know, as I Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): Yesterday am sure a lot of right hon. and hon. Members do, that was a great day for tied publicans, pub customers and some pubco tied licensees have a reasonable turnover the great British pub. The issue we are discussing is yet are making nothing at all. That is a scandal and it is about business, community and justice. I pay tribute to closing pubs. This is a Department for Business, Innovation my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Minister, and Skills debate, but we must also remember that my hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire between 2009 and 2011 Ted Tuppen, the chief executive (Jo Swinson), for showing the leadership and courage to officer of Enterprise Inns, gave himself an £848,000 announce yesterday that they will introduce a statutory bonus package over three years, at the same time as the and strengthened code of practice for pub companies value of his company collapsed by 80%. This is one of and an adjudicator. the worst examples of irresponsible capitalism that this I also pay a very warm tribute to the hon. Member country has ever seen, and yesterday must signal the for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), and all the members end of it—I hope that it does. of his Select Committee and predecessor Select Committees, We have recently seen the sale of Admiral Taverns. including the former Chair, the hon. Member for Mid Has anyone noted that there has been a huge loss to the Worcestershire (Peter Luff), for the professionalism and taxpayer, because of course that company had been leadership they have shown on this issue. I am sure that bought by Lloyds TSB? The estimates of the loss to the hon. Member for West Bromwich West will agree Lloyds, which is 43% owned by the taxpayer, are of up that we should pay tribute to the Select Committee to £800 million. This is the economics of the madhouse. staff, who have done a remarkable job in uncovering the evidence and ensuring that Parliament has the information Let us remind ourselves that the Association of Licensed at its fingertips to make this sort of decision. I also pay Multiple Retailers survey said that for the first time tied tribute to the Department for Business, Innovation and rents overtook rents for free-of-tie leases. The whole Skills officials who, in a short time, have conducted the basis of the tied system was supposed to be that where review that Parliament called for and have now come more was paid for the beer, a lower rent would be paid forward with the right solution based on the evidence. as a result. The Select Committee, the ALMR and That is to be warmly welcomed. others have shown that that is simply not the case and that licensees are being doubly ripped off, paying higher Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): While welcoming than reasonable rents as well as exorbitant beer prices. the Secretary of State’s announcement, what is the hon. That is, simply, why they cannot make a living. Gentleman’s view on the tie-free option with an open We need to be clear that the proposal being made is market rent review? not red tape or bureaucracy; it is about freeing up the British pub sector. It is about freeing up small businesses Greg Mulholland: I thank the hon. Gentleman for to make the decisions to be able to succeed, and to get a that intervention, and I pay tribute to him for his work reasonable living from their pub. It is notable that the as vice-chair of the all-party save the pub group. Our proposal has had the full and professional support of group should be very proud of what we have achieved; I the Federation of Small Businesses and the Forum of tabled my first early-day motion five years ago, so I Private Business. I can name many examples of former rather regret that I have only five minutes to go through pubco pubs around the country that have been taken on this. by smaller companies, by microbreweries and by individuals 369 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 370

[Greg Mulholland] for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), played an enormously important role in 2004, 2005, 2009, 2010 and last year, and are now succeeding. It has not been the pub that so that is important, too. has not been viable; it has been the business model. Two We must not forget that this is an Opposition day such examples are the Horse and Farrier in Otley, a debate, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member former Enterprise Inns pub that is now successful under for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins), who opened the debate the ownership of Market Town Taverns, an excellent with great skill and wit. He, too, has played a very Yorkshire-based pub company, and the Roebuck, just important role in making sure that the decision has up the road, which is a pub that Enterprise Inns had run been changed—over the past couple of hours, not just into the ground but is now a very successful pub run by the past couple of days. local businessman Chris Payne. So it can be done and The biggest tribute must go to the landlords, who we want it to happen more. We want it to be a result of have approached us, their Members of Parliament. yesterday’s announcement. They have suffered under the scandal of the tie not only The pub companies we are discussing are zombie for years but for decades. In my constituency, Mr Phil companies; they are not contributing to the British Jones of the Open Hearth public house in Pontypool economy. Our concern should not be what happens to contacted me on the issue three years ago. I was not them; it should be what happens to the individual small aware of all the detail, but he explained that we are businesses, because there is a huge growth opportunity dealing not with the tie of old—it is not the tie of a in this sector if we can free up those licensees to be able brewery such as Brains, the family brewery in south to succeed because they employ people and buy things Wales—but with a much bigger issue and a much greater locally. scandal. The response to the announcement from the British It is so important that MPs across the board have Beer and Pub Association—the pubcos association—and dealt with the issue, because the landlords who have from the pubcos has been extraordinary, if unsurprising. come to us have shown great courage in putting their Amazingly, the BBPA has said that it is “disappointing” case. Today is a vindication of the work they have done that self-regulation has not been given enough time “to as much as it is of that done by anybody else. work”. The reality is that the process has been as glacial as it had been when the Select Committee reported, the Jeremy Corbyn: The way my right hon. Friend describes BBPA has been as impotent in getting self-regulation to local pubs in his constituency is excellent. In my work and there is still an impasse on those codes. constituency, we have The Alma pub in Newington The final thing—the big challenge—is how the Green, an excellent gastropub that makes no money at Government deliver the principle that the tied tenant all because of the pub companies’ voracious appetite should not be worse off than if they were free of tie. for money. Will it be possible to deal with the outstanding They are taking on a considerable challenge, but it is the cases that the voluntary regulation system has failed right one. Whether or not this approach succeeds depends under the statutory system? on the Government getting that right, because having a code and an adjudicator, on its own, will not change the Paul Murphy: One would hope so; I want to conclude fundamental issue if the code does not deal with that on the question of how the consultation process will matter. I believe—the all-party save the pub group will work. continue to campaign on this—that the best and easiest If we are dealing with a statutory code of practice, way of doing that is through the free-of-tie option with which we must be, as the voluntary one has clearly an open rent review. If the Government have other ways failed, its only significance lies in what is in it. It might of doing it, we look forward to listening to them. Either be statutory, but if it does not cover the right things, it way, they have to stop the overcharging and they have to will be unimportant and meaningless. It must deal with save the Great British pub. the free-of-tie option and the adjudicator—and, of course, it must address the issues of scandalously high rents Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I must call and beer that is too expensive. It must deal with that time on you, Mr Mulholland—appropriately. combination. How will the consultation process develop? The 3.26 pm disappointing aspect of what the Government have done in the past—not of what they are doing or will Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): I am delighted to be do—is that they have effectively consulted only with the able to take part in this debate, and I congratulate the pubcos and have written out various documents that hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) were effectively provided to them by the great pubcos. on playing a hugely significant role in ensuring that the Clearly, that could not go on and the bilateral association whole policy of the Government has changed on this between pubcos and the Government just was not right issue. My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian and proper. Now, the consultation must go much further. Lucas) made the very good point that this is a good day It must include the GMB, Unite, the Fair Pint campaign, for the House of Commons. All-party groups have had CAMRA and, of course, the Federation of Small some poor publicity in the past few weeks, but groups Businesses and others. It must not be simply a formal, such as the one chaired by the hon. Gentleman provide paper consultation, either. It must be a proper consultation an excellent example of how parliamentarians from in which Ministers—not civil servants—sit down with both Houses and from right across the political spectrum all the organisations and take into account what they can come together to change the law on such issues. The say and come up with something that will satisfy the Select Committee, and my hon. Friend the Member for points that Members across the House have put to the West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and the hon. Member Minister today. 371 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 372

I think everybody agrees that only a statutory code of because that would leave unaffected the prices charged practice will work. If it contains the sort of things that in our pubs but tackle those charged by our supermarkets, Members want and if the consultation is proper and many of which use alcohol as a loss leader to drive valid, that will be good for pubs, good for our communities people through the doors. I have spoken to NHS bosses and good for our country. in east Lancashire who also agree with the proposals. Minimum pricing would boost public health and support the pub trade. 3.31 pm Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I was pleased to Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): I, too, took part contribute to the Backbench Business Committee debate in the debate a year ago and I proposed a minimum on this topic on 12 January last year and want to make price for alcohol. In my most recent survey of pubs in a further brief contribution today. my constituency, I put the issue to landlords. Some 97% I am a great fan of the British pub, as you know, agreed; 48% thought that a level of 50p per unit was Mr Deputy Speaker, and I live next door to a pub in my right; and 48% thought that that was too low. constituency—as you do in the neighbouring constituency. Since the general election, I have worked three shifts Andrew Stephenson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for behind the bar in various pubs in my constituency to that intervention. When I talk to landlords across Pendle learn more about the challenges they face. about the biggest impact on their business—whether In my speech last year, I talked about the situation in the smoking ban or pub companies—they all say that it Pendle over the past few years. We have seen seven pubs is supermarkets selling alcohol at below cost price. close in Brierfield, five in Barnoldswick, seven in Nelson, Although today’s debate is important, we must not lose three in Colne and numerous others in the surrounding sight of other issues leading to a decline in the pub areas. In that debate, I said: trade across the UK. “I believe that there is increasing evidence that the beer tie, as I warmly welcome yesterday’sGovernment announcement, operated by the large pub companies, plays a significant role in which will provide great support to those who have the decline of the pub trade. I point out explicitly that I am campaigned on the issue and give stability for pubs and referring only to the behaviour of some large pub companies that tenants. It will be good for growth and the pub trade. I own more than 500 pubs, not to family-owned breweries, which tend to act much more responsibly.” also welcome the fact that the Government are focusing just on large pub companies with more than 500 pubs; I concluded by saying that, although I normally always that is exactly what I argued for in my speech last year. favour voluntary regulation over statutory regulation, “I therefore have no hesitation in supporting the motion and The Government have already done a lot to support calling on the Government to reconsider self-regulation and stop the industry. They have appointed a Minister for pubs the large pub companies abusing their position.”—[Official Report, and introduced the community right to buy, so that 12 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. 367-8.] residents can take over and save failing pubs, as happened with The Greyhound in Barnoldswick. I welcome the Mr Bellingham: I congratulate my hon. Friend on the reform to licensing laws to make it easier for pubs to role he has played in this campaign. Does he agree that play live music and the action on business rates. There another initiative the Government should consider is are issues on which we can go further, such as the beer scrapping the escalator in the 2013 Budget? That would duty escalator, but a lot of progress has been made. save the Government money, because any loss in beer Those steps, along with those announced yesterday, will duty revenue would be offset by higher beer sales and be welcomed by tied publicans across Pendle—especially increased revenue from employment taxes. Surely the the overarching fair-dealing provision in the new code Government should consider that, too. and the principle that a tied licensee should be no worse off than a free-of-tie licensee. Andrew Stephenson: I agree wholeheartedly with my The new statutory code for the industry will need to hon. Friend. I was very pleased that when we came into get the balance right. I am not against all pub companies office we scrapped the increase in cider duty arranged or even the big ones; the beer tie is a valid business by the previous Government, but I am even more model with real advantages for many. However, the delighted that many hon. Members on both sides of the abuse of the tie has led to real problems so I warmly House are now urging the Government to go further welcome the Government’s action. and to scrap completely the beer duty escalator. I conclude by paying tribute to CAMRA’s work on the issue. I look forward to seeing several of the east Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): May I suggest considering Lancashire branch members at the ninth Pendle beer another discrepancy—that supermarkets that sell beer festival, which runs from 31 January to 2 February at should perhaps pay duty at a different rate? As my hon. the municipal hall in Colne. If any hon. Members want Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) suggested to come and try any of the huge variety of ales, such as earlier, in Ireland they are considering what they call a Barlick brewery’s Magic Badger, Reedley Hallows brewery’s lid tax, which would encourage people to use pubs Old Laund bitter or the classic Moorhouse’s Pride of rather than preloading on cheap booze from supermarkets. Pendle, they will be more than welcome. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson)agree with me? 3.37 pm Andrew Stephenson: I agree and think that idea should be considered. I am perhaps in a minority on the Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): It is a great Government Benches, in that I support some of the privilege to follow the hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew proposals to consider minimum pricing for alcohol, Stephenson) and speak in this hugely important debate. 373 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 374

[Susan Elan Jones] to regulate the relationship between large companies and their tenants and licensees. It is vital that we do that History was made on 29 October 2011 at the Buck now, and it is so good that the House has spoken on this House hotel in Bangor-on-Dee, when Wrexham lager issue. was officially relaunched. Wrexham lager is Britain’s oldest lager brew, first brewed in 1882. The company 3.42 pm went through a huge array of changes until in 1992 it Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): There are a few became part of Carlsberg-Tetley. Eight years later, the things that unite this House, such as national security, brew suffered from a faraway management decision that respect for the monarch, the bravery of our armed forces, allowed Wrexham lager to continue being brewed, but and the great British pint. Nottinghamshire has a great nowhere near Wrexham. In 2002, the brew ceased totally. tradition of pubs and brewing. The city of Nottingham Its current incarnation is testimony to the work of a few boasts some of the oldest pubs in the country in the dedicated individuals, including my predecessor, Martyn Salutation Inn and Ye Olde Trip to Jerusalem, but Jones, who was a microbiologist at the brewery. Sherwood has its own place in brewing history with It is vital that we encourage diversity in brewing and Robin Hood and Friar Tuck, who was a noted brewer, bring in the statutory code, because of small breweries so I feel very close to this issue. Sadly, though, such as the one that produces Wrexham lager. Today Nottinghamshire has not been immune from the pub there has been much discussion about the number of closures that we have seen across the country, and a pubs that have closed. One such is the Ty’n y Capel pub number of great local hubs have disappeared from our in Minera in my constituency, a hostelry with a heritage villages and communities. going back to the 13th century. The pub has now closed It is worth noting how important those establishments but people in that small village are determined to get it are to local communities. They are a great place not reopened. They have been awarded a lottery grant and only to hold community events but to celebrate weddings local residents are busy purchasing shares. It is now our and christenings and perhaps even to commemorate the job, and the job of Government, to support them in passing of a close friend. More importantly, they are a reopening this vital community facility. place where people can share their woes and problems As the hon. Member for Pendle said, there is rightful with friends and neighbours. They provide a great outlet concern about the abuse of alcohol and binge drinking. for any social pressures that people may be feeling, in a This concern is as valid today as it was in any previous location where there is a landlord to control the amount generation. That is partly why this debate is so important, of alcohol they consume and to make sure they do not because only by supporting genuinely local community do it in a way that will cause them harm. We must and family-oriented pubs can we tackle the most unpleasant recognise how important this great British institution aspects of the revolting all-you-can-drink subculture is—and it is a British institution. Many Members will that has led to devastating consequences, not least have gone abroad and seen how other countries attempt domestic violence. to recreate the British pub and how poorly they do it. It is something that we should be very proud of. Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): The hon. Lady There are great examples of success in the pub industry. is making a very interesting point. Does she agree that In my local communities there are not only great pubs some of the problems with the binge-drinking culture but great miners’ welfare and working men’s clubs that lie particularly with the very high-strength alcohols? have shown the way forward when they are given the Will she join me in urging the Government, who have freedom to operate successfully. It is worth noting that already looked at differential duties, to consider a lower both the bottom and top clubs in Calverton have created duty on ordinary beers that are sold in the pub and a a system in which they can operate, and the miners’ much higher duty on the very highest-strength alcohols welfare club in Blidworth has linked to a sports club. that often lead to some of the problems of domestic Those are great examples of how successful they can be violence and binge drinking? when given the freedom to operate. Successive Governments of all colours have not always Susan Elan Jones: There is a very strong case for that; helped the pub industry. Whatever the motivation behind the hon. Gentleman makes an interesting and a good point. the decision to introduce the beer duty escalator, it put I could not speak in a debate such as this, and I pressure on some landlords and built in costs to the modestly have not yet done so, without mentioning industry that it inevitably had to pass on to consumers, with great pride the Bridge End pub in Ruabon, to and that inevitably drove some of them away to drink at which my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian home rather than at a public house. Lucas) referred. It was last year’s CAMRA pub of the year, and it has just secured another prestigious award—it Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): My hon. is now Welsh pub of the year for 2013. It has renowned Friend is making a good contribution. Does he agree quizzes and local brews, and it not only brings together that, because of the prescriptive nature of the Licensing our local community but has become part of the tourist Act 2003, the proliferation of convenience stores— experience for everyone who visits the uniquely beautiful unlicensed premises—has meant that pubs have been part of north Wales that I feel privileged to represent. disadvantaged, and that a new cumulative impact policy That is an amazing achievement for a pub that reopened will mean that pubs will now have a fighting chance only in 2009. It is a great tribute to the pub, to the against convenience stores that sell alcohol? McGivern family who run it, and to Ruabon. Mr Spencer: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. It is because of the Ty’n y Capel, the Bridge End, I do hope that that will be the case. As I said in my Wrexham lager and the Buck House hotel, as well as the initial comments, it is important that people are able to need to take alcohol out of the abuse zone, that we need drink in a social environment where someone is there to 375 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 376 keep an eye on what happens. That is a much healthier Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), who is pushing the Groceries way of drinking than sitting at home in front of the TV Code Adjudicator Bill through the House. A system drinking cans of lager. We should ensure that we continue similar to the groceries code to protect landlords will be to support public houses and landlords. welcomed. I welcome the consultation and look forward Governments have not offered assistance to public to greater protection for our pubs in future. houses with other pressures, such as their rateable value. Some of the larger pub companies have used the value 3.50 pm of a public house to increase the rents and the price of beer in a deliberate ploy to push out landlords and Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): May I take realise the capital value of that property, in order to the opportunity to wish you a very happy new year, knock it down and build housing or retail premises. I Mr Deputy Speaker? can only imagine the pressure felt by landlords when It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Sherwood they are exposed to a deliberate plan to push them out. (Mr Spencer). I am sure that such a benign and jovial fellow is not usually given to conspiracy theories, and Greg Mulholland: My hon. Friend makes a hugely he was right to highlight some of the darker practices, important point—asset stripping has been a big issue. such as tenants being deliberately forced out of a lease Does he agree that we also need to consider increasing in order for the pubco to benefit. He was also right to protection in planning law for pubs, so that asset stripping highlight the positive role that good landlords can play does not continue? There is a danger, now that the pubcos in helping people to develop a healthy relationship with know the game is up, that they may seek to sell more. alcohol. I pay tribute to Members on both sides of the House Mr Spencer: It would be worth looking at that. Some who have stuck doggedly with this agenda, even before of the older public houses are of great historic and many of us arrived in 2010, to get us to this point. In architectural value, so perhaps somebody should be particular, I praise the role of the Business, Innovation looking at ensuring that they are protected. and Skills Committee. I regret that the Scottish National There are some good news stories as well. The tied party Member only popped into this debate for a short pub system offers an opportunity for people to become time, because there is a lesson for the Scottish Government self-employed and set out on the career path of working in how effective genuinely empowered and independent for themselves. When it works well, it works very well, Select Committees can be in promoting good governance. but we need to tackle those who are abusing the system. I hope that some SNP Members are watching the There is some discussion about how many companies screens in their offices and will take that message to are doing so. I want the Minister to consider, as part of heart. the consultation process, lowering the threshold for the So far, I have been in quite a jovial mood, considering number of pubs held before they are brought into the that I am just 60 hours into nicotine withdrawal. The realm of the proposed legislation. Secretary of State today showed that he has the sensitive underbelly of the Government. He did not seem happy Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): Will my hon. Friend that there was criticism of the time that it has taken to give way? get to this point—like many Members, I stood here almost a year ago asking for effective regulation of this Mr Spencer: I am very short of time, but I will give sector—but it really is his own fault. When he was a real way quickly. Lib Dem—rather like the Campaign for Real Ale—he prided himself on calling for the quick introduction of Jessica Lee: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for stronger regulation of the banks. Whereas he would giving way. On self-employment, does he agree that the probably give himself a 10 for his foxtrot when it came growth and resurgence of the microbrewery industry to the banks, we might score him slightly lower on his goes hand in hand with this debate? It is flourishing, gentle waltz towards the effective regulation of this particularly in Erewash and across Derbyshire. sector. I hope that he has not left the Chamber because he was so sensitive that he was struggling to cope with Mr Spencer: I agree and it is a great success story. the criticism. Lots of people are setting up microbreweries and they I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for need marketplaces in which to sell those beers. If someone Wrexham (Ian Lucas) for talking about the contribution is in tied premises, their hands are tied and they cannot that pubs make to so many of our communities. The do that. Greater flexibility in the marketplace would be Winton Arms is the only pub in the village where I live welcomed and would support those people. in East Lothian and it is very important. It is developing There are a number of examples of landlords taking in the way that my hon. Friend spoke about. It now has on a pub that has been run down and putting in a lot of space for a hairdresser, where beauty therapy is also graft and work by making food available on the premises, available, and it hosts a coffee shop with home baking. doing quiz nights and increasing the amount of alcohol Members can guess which of those two I tend to spend and beer they sell, only to find their rents and beer costs more time on. At new year, when little public transport being pushed up so that the more successful they are, was available, I was able to go there to see in the new the more costs are thrown at them. It has become year safely and walk home. counter-productive. It has been a wasted year. In that time, many of us, In summary, the Government have a pretty good including the hon. Member for South East Cornwall track record of starting to address these problems. I pay (Sheryll Murray), have seen landlords finally give up on tribute to the Under-Secretary of State for Business, a relationship that just was not working. That has Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East happened at the Tyneside Tavern in Haddington in my 377 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 378

[Fiona O’Donnell] I welcome yesterday’s announcement in principle. The new code will ensure fair practices on a number of constituency. The landlord, Neil Forbes, an ex-policeman issues, including rents and the price that publicans pay who ran a superb operation, has finally given up. I have for beer. Crucially, the adjudicator will manage the attended meetings with Neil and his wife, and have been matter of fairness, because it is often the big guy against copied in to an endless stream of e-mails. The experience the little guy, and just because someone is good at reminds me of the cartoon “Tom and Jerry”, in which running a pub, that does not mean that they are a legal Tom gets a bump on his head, he pushes it in and one expert. pops out on the other side. Neil would make some We must not forget the absolute need for transparency progress getting fairer terms in one area, but then on costs, particularly when a publican signs up to their Scottish & Newcastle would suddenly introduce a charge deal. It is a bit like having a franchise. Legally the deal in another area and set the situation back. Although I says, “You will buy the product at this price,” and as my deeply regret that he is walking away from the business, hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) I understand the effect that it was having on him and his said, it includes matters such as PAT testing of vending family. machines and insurance. It is not just about the beer. The Government were a little late in finally agreeing I urge caution, and my hon. Friend the Member for to make the Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill a real Bill Burton (Andrew Griffiths) made a good and sensible with the power to deliver change. I hope that they will speech that brought some realism to the debate. We not be so reticent this time, but will realise that if we are have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the to have fairness in this sector, we need comprehensive bathwater. We must be careful about mandating a free-of-tie regulation with real teeth. option with open market rent review, because the pubco tie is a good business model that allows people to 3.54 pm become entrepreneurial small business owners without Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): It is an having to have huge savings to buy an expensive building. honour to be the last Government Back-Bencher to Just because some have abused the system, that does speak—it is a bit like queuing for last orders. As a not mean that we should completely remove it. We just member of the all-party save the pub and beer groups, I need to ensure that those who abuse it are dealt with welcome the debate. I have shown my hand at trying to and that others are given adequate protections. run a pub, not particularly successfully, and like many We all have good examples of family breweries working Members who are present I have been known to frequent with landlords, such as Arkell’s in my constituency, a pub. which has just over 100 pubs. It is in breweries’ interests It is a real credit to the Government that we now have to do so, because if their landlords succeed, they will a Minister responsible for pubs, and if he ever wishes to continue to sell beer, which is what makes their business visit our local brewery, Arkell’s, I will certainly make thrive. We have to look at the wider picture and be him welcome. I am a little concerned, however, because careful not to chase a cheap headline. I support the we have a passionate shadow Minister who supports principle of what is proposed, but we must act on the pubs but has announced that he is teetotal for the consultation. Those with expertise, knowledge and first- month of January, and the shadow Minister in the hand experience should feed into it. The hon. Member February 2011 Westminster Hall debate, the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) made that point, and I echo it. for Derby North (Chris Williamson), declared not only We must also celebrate some of the examples of good that he was teetotal but that he did not visit pubs. We news. Wetherspoon’s continues to buck the market trend need the other team to play their part. However, there is and expand. When I am having breakfast in a clearly cross-party concern about pubs, which are at the Wetherspoon’s pub, I often admire how much money heart of our communities. they probably take before the majority of other pubs Although the number of pub closures has slowed, it open their doors at lunchtime. is still somewhere in the region of 18 a week, which has The Government are considering the community right to act as a wake-up call for all of us. The Government’s to bid, giving communities a fairer chance to bid to take decision is a credit to organisations such as CAMRA over pubs. Again, that would be particularly useful in and the Federation of Small Businesses, and to the rural communities. They are launching a £19 million countless local residents who have e-mailed all MPs to support programme to help community organisations; raise the issue. ensuring that planning policies provide for the use of pubs and guard against their unnecessary loss; and Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): My hon. Friend is a providing help with business rates. They have scrapped champion of pubs in Swindon, but may I urge him also the previous Government’s plan for a 10% rise in cider to give some focus to rural pubs, which are under duties, but they now need to do the same in the case of greater pressures than those in towns? I see that every the beer duty escalator. As we chase increased exports, day in Fylde. let us take a moment to rejoice that 1.25 billion pints of beer were exported last year. That is something to which Justin Tomlinson: I thank my hon. Friend for raising we can all raise a glass. that important issue. That situation arises particularly We are making it easier for pubs to play live music. I because of the value of rural pubs if their owners have carried out a number of surveys with local pub transfer them to other categories of use. It is welcome users, asking what makes a good pub. We know that that the Government are looking to tighten up the society has changed and that more often than not, pure relevant planning rules, which will help protect a number straightforward drinking pubs will struggle these days. Pubs of rural pubs. A few in my constituency need that need a combination of good food, good entertainment, protection. live music and pub quizzes—going that extra mile to 379 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 380 make it a destination for local communities. Moves to doing all it can to ensure that she leaves the pub with as exempt pubs from unnecessary health and safety inspections little financial return as possible. Mary pays an inflated would also be welcome. I urge people to get behind this rent but gets nothing done to the property. She pays issue, which has clear cross-party support, and engage inflated prices for beer but gets nothing in return. Last with the consultation. Let us hope for a better year for Friday, the regional manager of Enterprise Inns said the pub industry in 2013. that he could not even guarantee her a packet of beer mats! Mr Townsend asks what is wrong with his business 4pm model. Those are the things that are wrong with it. I am pleased the Government have moved on the Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): I thank my hon. statutory code, but I have concerns about the tied Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) for option, which should be kept open, and about open championing this cause and pressing for and securing market rent reviews, which the Minister should consider. this debate. Hon. Members may not be aware that I have spent a considerable amount of time researching this subject over many years—perhaps too intensely on 4.4 pm some occasions—and I wish to draw on some of that research by telling a story about Mary Spence, a publican Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): My wonderful in Rochdale who runs the Hunters Rest just off Syke city of York has been an important tourist destination common. One reason I am telling Mary’s story is because for centuries. People are drawn to the city by its history it addresses a point raised by Simon Townsend, the and its wonderful buildings, including York Minister chief operating officer at Enterprise Inns. On 12 December and the city walls, but also by the city’s pubs, some of he said in the Publican’s Morning Advertiser that all he which date back to the 1400s. had ever asked was to be provided with When I meet York members of the Licensed Victuallers “clear evidence, which we can pursue to see whether we have done Association and York CAMRA, they always raise the something wrong,”. problems of pub companies. Like other Members, I Well, I believe the way Mary Spence is being treated is carry out a survey from time to time of pubs and clubs wrong and that Mary’s story provides clear evidence in my constituency. When I did so in 2009, I found that that Enterprise Inns has little, if any, regard for customers 41% of landlords blamed pub companies’ unfair terms at the Hunters Rest and indeed the wider community. I of trade for their falling profits, but last year when I believe that Enterprise Inns is doing something wrong; carried out a similar survey, I found that the number of it may not be illegal, but it is certainly wrong. I have pubs complaining about pub companies had risen to been in the Hunters Rest on a few occasions and I can 62%. The problem of the pub companies misusing their tell it is a well run pub. Mary and Tom work exceptionally power is getting worse. hard; they start at six or seven in the morning and finish After conducting last year’s survey, I wrote to the after midnight. They keep a smart, clean pub that Treasury. I told the then Treasury Minister, the hon. provides bed and breakfast and pub food. Indeed, Member for Norwich North (Miss Smith), that pub Hilary Devey, one of the entrepreneurial dragons on companies had not abided by guidelines and that the the BBC’s “Dragons’ Den”, worked at the Hunters Rest Government should consider introducing a statutory while filming “The Secret Millionaire” for Channel 4, code to regulate pubcos’ relationship with their tenants. but even such an accomplished entrepreneur as she In July, she replied: could not work wonders under the arrangements of Enterprise Inns and I will explain why. “Regarding your comments on the relationship between pub companies and licensees…The Government does not…consider Mary Spence is 16 years through a 25-year lease with it appropriate to make a statutory intervention in setting the Enterprise Inns and she has had enough. Enterprise terms of commercial, contractual relationships.” Inns controls most of the business—it sets prices, determines I congratulate the Government warmly on changing what work should be done on the property, sets the rent their policy and agreeing to a statutory code of practice. and decides what beer should be sold. For example, Mary could buy a 22-gallon barrel of Foster’s for Pub companies came into existence after a previous £195 but she has no choice but to pay Enterprise Inns attempt by the Government of the day to deal with the £291. She could buy Carling wholesale for £201 but has problem of tied pubs—I believe it happened following no choice but to buy it from Enterprise Inns for £303. the beer orders of 1989. Breweries were instructed to That affects not only Mary Spence but her customers. sell off their tied pubs, which were bought by pub Therefore, when Mr Townsend asks, “What’s wrong?”, companies, but that did not solve the problem, because it is that Mary Spence is paying around £500 a week the pub companies imposed a tie of their own. The tie is extra for her beer. the problem. In the new regime that the Secretary of State announced yesterday, the tie must go. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Will If a property company with a shop sought to lease it my hon. Friend give way? as a boutique, for example, with a term in the lease that it could sell clothes from a particular manufacturer or Simon Danczuk: I will not take interventions because of a particular brand only—or sell clothes supplied I am conscious of the time. The other big problem with only by the landlord—the Office of Fair Trading would Enterprise Inns is that Mary has to maintain the property rule it out of order pretty quickly, and yet that is exactly both inside and out. She had to pay for a fire escape to the relationship between a tied pub and a pub company. be fitted and for fire alarms throughout the building. I congratulate the Business, Innovation and Skills She has invested her life savings in that pub over the Committee on its work. It has argued forcefully for a past 16 years, but although the place is immaculate, statutory code for pub companies to include a free-of-tie what does she have to show for it? Enterprise Inns is option, which the Labour party motion supports. 381 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 382

[Hugh Bayley] 4.12 pm Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I am grateful Parliament needs to avoid making the mistake it to my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) made in 1989 when the brewers were required to sell for being collegiate. I wish other hon. Members had their tied pubs. I am pleased to see the Secretary of been. I will be as brief as I can. State in his seat listening to the debate. The statutory code he proposes should start from the presumption My constituents, Joe and Betty Hynes, are observing that there is no tie. I hope that option is covered in the the debate. They are also active in the all-party group, consultation. If we say to a relatively weak and powerless the Guild of Master Victuallers and the fair pint campaign. small businessman or woman that, under the code of They are also known to the hon. Member for Leeds practice, there should be an option of no tie, many will North West (Greg Mulholland), as well as hon. Friends still be bludgeoned by big, tough multi-million pound on the Front Bench, because for 23 years they have lived pub companies into taking a tie. Therefore, the default and worked at the Old Parr’s Head in Blythe road in my should be that there is no tie unless it is opted for by the constituency, which is a very fine public house. In 1997, landlord. I hope we consult on that basis. it was bought by Punch Taverns. A few years’ ago, Joe and Betty Hynes acquired a second pub, the Chancery 4.9 pm in Fulham. They did that because they wanted to be successful in business and to provide employment. Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): We are pressed Unfortunately, when they had to surrender the licence for time and other hon. Members want to speak, so I will of that pub this year, Punch Taverns was taking 124% truncate my remarks on what is an important debate. of their profits. Six years’ ago, Punch Taverns was I want to mention the role of local breweries in my taking 48% of their profits on their existing pub. This constituency. Dick Simpson runs the Nene Valley brewery year, save for any agreements that Punch Taverns will in Oundle, which started brewing in 2011. He told me keep to, which it is not showing much sign of doing, it that pubcos make it very hard for pub owners to show will take 91% of those profits. That will mean that Joe initiative. If pubs start to make a handsome profit, the and Betty will effectively be living on less than the pubcos whack the rent up so the landlord sees little of minimum wage. They have lost their life savings in one the extra cash. Local breweries, such as the Nene Valley venture, because they have been forced out. They are brewery, the Great Oakley brewery, Rockingham Ales now living on minimum income, yet have provided and many others in my constituency, would benefit those two fantastic establishments for my constituents from being able to sell to all the pubs in my area. over a long period of time. Indeed, everybody would benefit: the pubs, the consumers, The Secretary of State indicated that there have been the local brewers, the local economy, the environment— many pressures on pubs, such as the beer duty escalator, because it would reduce beer miles—and tourism. the smoking ban and unfair competition. Trying to deal In autumn last year, I was delighted to welcome my with those problems is bad enough. If, in addition, hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) pubcos decide that they will take none of the risk or any to my constituency for some active research in my local cut in their profit and put all of that burden on to pubs. He came to some of the rural pubs, such as a publicans, we end up in the situation we are in now, beautiful pub in Stanwick, and to the thriving pubs in where people are being driven out of business and pubs Corby town. He also saw, however, that many of my are going bankrupt every week in my constituency. I local pubs are struggling. Some have closed down already; will, of course, try to intervene as the MP, but it is some may face closure in the near future. One reason sometimes difficult to do so in a contractual dispute. for that, as has been said, is the profoundly unequal I end on this point, and I wish I had more time to do relationship between tenants and lessee landlords. In justice to Joe and Betty’s case. I hope, having seen delay the past, if a pub owner was tied, he paid more for the and more pubs going to the wall than is necessary, that beer but had the benefit of discounted rent. As we there will be the quick implementation of an effective know, pubcos have increasingly put up both the rent statutory code so that this David and Goliath battle can and beer prices. be evened up and people like Joe and Betty can get the I will make my remarks even briefer than I intended. proper reward for a lifetime of work and service to their There are two critical issues on which I want to press the community. Front Bench. I recently sat on the Groceries Code Adjudicator Public Bill Committee, and we know that Several hon. Members rose— the role of the Bill’s proposed ombudsman will only be as strong as the code itself. One of my questions relates Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I apologise to the power to fine, on which the Under-Secretary of to Members who have not got in, despite having sat here State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member throughout the debate, but we have to move on to the for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) gave a big concession winding-up speeches. on that Bill. The power to fine in yesterday’s announcement is only where there are severe breaches. I would like to know how broadly the Government might define “severe 4.14 pm breaches”. If the definition is too limited, this code will Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I also apologise not have sufficient teeth. to the Members who have not got in, because they have My concluding point is that I, of course, agree with an important contribution to make to the debate, the tests that my hon. Friend has set out, in particular particularly the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame the principle that a tied licensee should be no worse off M. Morris). To Members who have not had a night out than a free-tie licensee. That does not go far enough: I with him, I can highly recommend it, and I was looking want a tie-free option. forward to his contribution. Perhaps we will find time 383 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 384 later on. I also refer the House to my entry in the I shall give some examples of my own experience. I register of Members’ interests, as a former licensee of a was in discussions about a premises in Edinburgh, but pubco and other companies. I will run through some of was concerned that the same company had a managed my own experiences shortly. house just around the corner that had been closed for This afternoon’s debate has emphasised the importance some time. I was told that it was to have a full refit and of the great British pub and the contribution that reopen shortly, but would be a niche product and would landlords and landladies make to our communities in not be in direct competition with my premises. When it every country of the United Kingdom. I would like to eventually opened, it was an almost identical offering pay particular tribute to the hon. Member for Leeds and was selling beer to the consumer at less than the North West (Greg Mulholland), who, since I have been value at which I could buy it from the same company. in the House, has been a dogged campaigner on this issue, In another premises, albeit with a different landlord, filling our inboxes on the subject. He deserves great credit we asked if we could buy out of our bottled beer tie, for everything he has done, and today is a great triumph because a supermarket had opened up next door and for him, as well as for everyone else in the House. was selling the same products at a third of the price that I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for we were contracted to buy them for. We were told that West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), the Chair of the we could buy out of the tie, but at a cost of £1,600 per Select Committee, who has continued to pursue the annum on the rent. Many hon. Members, including the matter through the Select Committee, showing the power hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), have that those Committees can have in the House. I hope raised the issues with off-trade and on-trade. That might that other Chairs will take note. If anyone has time to be a subject for a useful future debate. read the contribution from the hon. Member for My last and probably most shocking example from Northampton South (Mr Binley), who is not in his that time—this issue has also been illustrated by my place, and his robust performance against the pubcos in hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) the Committee, it is certainly worth looking at. And, of and the hon. Members for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) and course, I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West—concerns the major pubco that for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), who did a lot I rented a hotel from. We received a good deal for the in this field as the former pubs Minister, and to the hon. hotel because the premises were up for demolition, but Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), the former the pubco told us—and I quote—that any increase in Chair of the Select Committee. our profitability or trade would be reflected in a regular, I also add a special tribute to my Front-Bench colleague, upward-only rent review. Crucially, the business my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby development manager at the time used to brag about Perkins). By bringing this Opposition day debate to the the list of tenants he was fining or about to fine for Chamber, he rang the last orders bell on the Government “buying out”—the term for purchasing products outwith to act. Without that determination to get this issue back the contract. He got a bonus for fining people. That was on the agenda, I suspect we would not be here today the reality of the situation at the time and shows just with the progress that has been made. Despite his dry how much pressure tenants were under. January, he does a lot personally to support the industry— although he could do a lot more by standing his round a Let me quickly give the House another example. I did little more often! Given that it is a dry January for him, a bit of analysis today. I phoned up a supplier and, with however, I shall certainly be buying the drinks after this no credit history, asked how much I could buy a 36-gallon debate. barrel of standard lager for. I was quoted £356.73. The list price on Enterprise’s current price list is £510.22, so Just 12 months ago, we had a robust Back-Bench debate it is quite clear where the problem lies. on this issue and the House agreed unanimously that the self-regulation approach should be reviewed and a I warmly welcome the new Minister to her place. She statutory code considered. It is clear, however, that has changed her mind on a number of issues, including consecutive BIS Ministers have ignored the wishes of fining and the groceries code adjudicator. I am delighted the House and have refused to listen to the broad that she has come with some proposals today that might coalition of groups calling for action. To give credit to make the situation better. We were on the verge of the Secretary of State and his Ministers, however, on having a groceries code adjudicator without teeth. I the eve of this debate, he said that the current system hope that she has learnt that lesson and that we do not had failed and that he would introduce a new statutory end up with a G and T with all tonic and no gin. I also code. want to challenge her on what “no worse off than a free-of-tie licence” means. Does it mean no worse off in It is worth reflecting again on the scale of the issue: terms of profitability, turnover, overall cash or, indeed, 46% of tied publicans earn less than £15,000 a year. the whole package of measures? Crucially, that includes more than 50% of lessees with a turnover of more than £500,000 per annum—a return I do not have time to run through the other issues, but of only 3%. The total number of tied pubs has fallen by I want to highlight some of the statements made by more than 3,000 since 2008, which compares with an other Members. My hon. Friend the Member for East increase in the number of free-tie pubs. Furthermore, as Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) spoke of how her local pub many hon. Members have mentioned, including my had diversified into other things, such as a beauty salon, hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe), and challenged us to suggest whether she spent more the Wetherspoons model demonstrates that profits and time there or in the bar. Given her natural beauty, I sales can continue to rise in what is a difficult market. It would suggest she spent more time in the bar. My hon. would seem that the abuse of the tied contract is the Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) problem, as many publicans will already be paying rent gave an interesting analysis of Punch Taverns, which is at the market value or higher. now taking 124% of profit, rather than the 41% from 385 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 386

[Ian Murray] for non-tied lessees earning less than £15,000 a year is 22%, or one in five. The Government will be acting on some time ago. The story of Mary Spence, which my this, and I welcome the broad cross-party support for hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) what we are doing. told us about, emphasises how bad the industry can get. We have heard some horror stories this afternoon, On the eve of this debate the Secretary of State but there have also been some lighter notes in the panicked, but he has announced stuff that we will be debate. We have heard about pubs being the scene of a accepting on this side of the House, although we will range of events. The hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon monitor the progress of the code’s development closely Danczuk) mentioned the “dragon”, Hilary Devey, working to ensure that, as the Prime Minister would put it, it undercover in a pub. My hon. Friend the Member for does exactly what it says on the tin. I am sure that many South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) talked about hon. and right hon. Members who have spoken today being the first Cornish MP to pull a pint in her local may be getting a free pint in their local pub, given the pub. My hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew amount of free publicity they have given them. I am off Stephenson) talked about the three shifts that he had to do a pub crawl around all those pubs after this debate done as a barman in his local pubs, and told the House and you are very welcome to join me, Mr Deputy about the Pendle beer festival. I understand that you Speaker. also have a pub as a neighbour, Mr Deputy Speaker. We heard from the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) about the triumph of the Bridge End winning 4.22 pm CAMRA pub of the year, and the hon. Member for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Chesterfield told us about his drinking mineral water in Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): I thank all Members his local pubs. Perhaps the most touching story was that who have contributed to this afternoon’s debate. We of the romance and engagement of the hon. Member have heard speeches from 18 Members and interventions for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero). from many more. The Chair of the Select Committee rightly said that I particularly thank the Chair of the Business, Innovation what we are doing will not be a panacea, but it will help. and Skills Committee, the hon. Member for West Bromwich Members raised a range of other issues, including the West (Mr Bailey), and his predecessor, the hon. Member beer duty escalator, on which we had a debate in the for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), for the work they House recently. That is a matter for the Chancellor, and have done on this issue over many years, which is a good I am sure that Treasury colleagues will be following this example of the effectiveness of Select Committees working debate closely through Hansard. in a persistent, constructive and responsible way. Many other Members have campaigned on this issue for many Andrew Griffiths rose— years, including the hon. Members for Northampton South (Mr Binley) and for Easington (Grahame M. Jo Swinson: I am sorry. Owing to the lack of time, I Morris), my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North must press ahead with my summation. West (Greg Mulholland), who made a typically powerful A differential beer duty was suggested, but it would contribution to today’s debate and has done so much not be possible to introduce such a scheme on the basis with the all-party save the pub group, and my hon. of where alcohol was being sold. However, the Government Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), have already acted on a differential duty in relation to who introduced a private Member’s Bill a couple of the strength of beer. In October 2011, the duty on years ago. I also thank the many thousands of constituents high-strength beer rose and the duty on low-strength up and down the country who have taken an interest in beer fell. My hon. Friend the Member for Pendle made this issue, whether as landlords or, as the hon. Member an important point about minimum pricing, which could for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) put it, “practitioners” help pubs to regain an advantage when competing of pubs. against low-priced supermarket booze. In what was a generally consensual debate, the hon. My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) proposed potential Griffiths) said that regulation might not be needed. court action. I can reassure him that it is not necessary, That might not be a popular argument today, but I because The Morning Advertiser corrected the article understand what he is saying. It is right that the Government that had incorrectly attributed quotations to me. I can should regulate only as a last resort, and that we should confirm to the House that I did not say that the self- seek alternative solutions first. We have sought solutions, regulatory approach was working. however. The industry was put on notice last year and, Today we have heard stories from Members in all sadly, it has not delivered. My hon. Friend also mentioned sorts of constituencies of publicans who have faced real his concern about a two-tier system. It is right that we injustice and unfairness—horror stories about rent hikes should focus regulation on those with the greatest market out of kilter with the market, about extra charges and power. That is proportionate because the evidence shows add-ons that they did not know about when they signed that the greatest problems are in that part of the industry. up and about people who have been driven out of As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State business. For me, one of the most shocking figures is the mentioned, the consultation sets out that that regulation comparison between the incomes of tied lessees and of would relate to the six largest pub companies, with a those publicans who are in non-tied leases. Almost half threshold of 500 tied or tenanted properties. Those of tied lessees earn less than £15,000 a year. That is an companies would be Punch, Enterprise, Marston’s, Greene astonishing figure, when we consider the long hours King, Admiral and Star. Our consultation will listen to that people put into running their pubs, and the fact views on what the right definition should be and what that that income is often shared by a couple. The figure the threshold should be. I hear the point made by my 387 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 388 hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) Corby (Andy Sawford) mentioned, is certainly envisaged that the threshold should be lower than 500. I encourage for severe cases, which will of course be decided by the hon. Members who have a view on those issues to adjudicator. contribute to the consultation. In conclusion, we want to build a stronger economy There has been much debate on the free-of-tie option and a fairer society, and the Government’s action on this afternoon, and there are arguments on both sides. pubs will help to achieve both objectives. It will create a The hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) said stronger economy because pubs are an important part that the tie must go, but I believe that the beer tie can be of it, and this will help them to thrive. As for a fair important, especially for small family breweries such as society, pubs are also an important part of our communities those mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for and this action will help to put a stop to lessees being South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler). Indeed, in January treated unfairly by large companies and to abuse of the 2011, CAMRA stated: beer tie. This is good for publicans, good for pubs and “Without the right to tie pubs, the Family Brewers wouldn’t good for the public. bring their beers to the bar. Closures amongst the smaller brewers Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the would be inevitable. The tie is a viable way for them to run their original words stand part of the Question. pubs.” The House divided: Ayes 246, Noes 311. The problem is not the tie, as such, but the abuse of the tie. Division No. 131] [4.31 pm AYES Toby Perkins: Will the Minister give way? Abbott, Ms Diane Cryer, John Abrahams, Debbie Cunningham, Alex Jo Swinson: I will give way briefly; I am conscious Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cunningham, Mr Jim that I must respond to the debate. Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cunningham, Sir Tony Alexander, Heidi Curran, Margaret Toby Perkins: There has been a great deal of cross-party Ali, Rushanara Dakin, Nic agreement in the debate, and many people will be watching Allen, Mr Graham Danczuk, Simon it on television. Will the Minister confirm that she will Ashworth, Jonathan David, Wayne Austin, Ian Davidson, Mr Ian support our motion, so that we can all work together Bailey, Mr Adrian Davies, Geraint and ensure that we get to where we want to be? Bain, Mr William De Piero, Gloria Balls, rh Ed Denham, rh Mr John Jo Swinson: I can confirm to the hon. Gentleman Banks, Gordon Dobbin, Jim that we will support the amendment, which does something Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dobson, rh Frank that his motion does not do—namely, it proposes the Bayley, Hugh Docherty, Thomas introduction of an adjudicator, on which the Government Beckett, rh Dame Margaret Donohoe, Mr Brian H. are going to consult. I believe that that is essential, but it Begg, Dame Anne Doughty, Stephen is missing from the hon. Gentleman’s motion. However, Benn, rh Hilary Dowd, Jim Benton, Mr Joe Doyle, Gemma I welcome the fact that he has brought this topic forward Berger, Luciana Dromey, Jack for debate today. Betts, Mr Clive Dugher, Michael “A new independent statutory code of practice should be Blackman-Woods, Roberta Durkan, Mark imposed to uphold the prime principle—that the tied tenant Blears, rh Hazel Eagle, Ms Angela should be no worse off than if free of tie”. Blomfield, Paul Eagle, Maria Those are not my words, but those of the Independent Blunkett, rh Mr David Efford, Clive Pub Confederation. That is the key principle on which Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Elliott, Julie the new statutory code should be based. This will be Brennan, Kevin Ellman, Mrs Louise Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Engel, Natascha looked at across the board—taking into account the Brown, Mr Russell Esterson, Bill profits, the prices, the insurance, other benefits and Bryant, Chris Evans, Chris the rents—and the adjudicator will be able to look at Buck, Ms Karen Farrelly, Paul the whole picture. Having higher beer prices mitigated Burden, Richard Fitzpatrick, Jim by lower rents and business support is a valid business Burnham, rh Andy Flello, Robert model, but having higher beer prices and higher rents is Byrne, rh Mr Liam Flint, rh Caroline just a rip-off. As the right hon. Member for Torfaen Campbell, Mr Alan Flynn, Paul (Paul Murphy) said, the combination of the two is what Campbell, Mr Ronnie Fovargue, Yvonne causes the problems. Caton, Martin Francis, Dr Hywel Champion, Sarah Gapes, Mike Let me deal briefly with the process and timetable. Chapman, Jenny Gardiner, Barry The Government propose a consultation of six weeks, Clark, Katy Gilmore, Sheila and we will publish it as soon as possible in the spring. Clarke, rh Mr Tom Glass, Pat The adjudicator would have to be established by primary Clwyd, rh Ann Glindon, Mrs Mary legislation, and we are keen to press ahead with the Coaker, Vernon Godsiff, Mr Roger timetable. The House’s support will be helpful in that Connarty, Michael Goggins, rh Paul regard. We will consult on the details in the consultation, Cooper, Rosie Goodman, Helen and I encourage those interested to ensure that they set Cooper, rh Yvette Greatrex, Tom out their views. To respond to an earlier query, the Corbyn, Jeremy Green, Kate consultation will include the future role of self-regulation Crausby, Mr David Greenwood, Lilian and of the Pubs Independent Conciliation and Arbitration Creasy, Stella Griffith, Nia Service. The power to fine, which the hon. Member for Cruddas, Jon Gwynne, Andrew 389 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 390

Hain, rh Mr Peter Morris, Grahame M. Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Tellers for the Ayes: Hamilton, Mr David (Easington) Wright, David Tom Blenkinsop and Hamilton, Fabian Munn, Meg Wright, Mr Iain Julie Hilling Hanson, rh Mr David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Paul NOES Harris, Mr Tom Murray, Ian Havard, Mr Dai Nandy, Lisa Adams, Nigel Dinenage, Caroline Healey, rh John Nash, Pamela Afriyie, Adam Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hendrick, Mark O’Donnell, Fiona Aldous, Peter Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Hepburn, Mr Stephen Osborne, Sandra Amess, Mr David Dorries, Nadine Hermon, Lady Owen, Albert Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Doyle-Price, Jackie Hillier, Meg Pearce, Teresa Bacon, Mr Richard Drax, Richard Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Perkins, Toby Baker, Norman Duddridge, James Hoey, Kate Phillipson, Bridget Baldry, Sir Tony Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hood, Mr Jim Pound, Stephen Baldwin, Harriett Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hopkins, Kelvin Powell, Lucy Barclay, Stephen Ellis, Michael Howarth, rh Mr George Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Barker, rh Gregory Ellison, Jane Hunt, Tristram Reed, Mr Jamie Baron, Mr John Ellwood, Mr Tobias Irranca-Davies, Huw Reed, Steve Barwell, Gavin Elphicke, Charlie Jackson, Glenda Reeves, Rachel Bebb, Guto Eustice, George Jamieson, Cathy Reynolds, Emma Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Graham Jarvis, Dan Reynolds, Jonathan Bellingham, Mr Henry Evans, Jonathan Johnson, Diana Riordan, Mrs Linda Benyon, Richard Evennett, Mr David Jones, Graham Ritchie, Ms Margaret Beresford, Sir Paul Fabricant, Michael Jones, Helen Robertson, John Berry, Jake Fallon, rh Michael Jones, Mr Kevan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bingham, Andrew Farron, Tim Jones, Susan Elan Rotheram, Steve Birtwistle, Gordon Field, Mark Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Roy, Mr Frank Blackman, Bob Foster, rh Mr Don Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Roy, Lindsay Blackwood, Nicola Freeman, George Keeley, Barbara Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Blunt, Mr Crispin Freer, Mike Kendall, Liz Sarwar, Anas Boles, Nick Fuller, Richard Khan, rh Sadiq Sawford, Andy Bone, Mr Peter Gale, Sir Roger Lammy, rh Mr David Seabeck, Alison Bottomley, Sir Peter Garnier, Mark Lavery, Ian Shannon, Jim Brady, Mr Graham Gauke, Mr David Lazarowicz, Mark Sharma, Mr Virendra Brake, rh Tom George, Andrew Leslie, Chris Sheerman, Mr Barry Bray, Angie Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Mr Ivan Sheridan, Jim Brazier, Mr Julian Gilbert, Stephen Long, Naomi Shuker, Gavin Bridgen, Andrew Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Love, Mr Andrew Skinner, Mr Dennis Brine, Steve Glen, John Lucas, Caroline Slaughter, Mr Andy Brokenshire, James Goldsmith, Zac Lucas, Ian Smith, rh Mr Andrew Brooke, Annette Goodwill, Mr Robert Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Angela Browne, Mr Jeremy Graham, Richard Bruce, Fiona Grant, Mrs Helen Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Nick Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Grayling, rh Chris Malhotra, Seema Smith, Owen Buckland, Mr Robert Green, rh Damian Mann, John Spellar, rh Mr John Burley, Mr Aidan Greening, rh Justine Marsden, Mr Gordon Stringer, Graham Stuart, Ms Gisela Burns, Conor Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCabe, Steve Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Burns, rh Mr Simon Gummer, Ben McCann, Mr Michael Tami, Mark Burrowes, Mr David Gyimah, Mr Sam McCarthy, Kerry Thomas, Mr Gareth Burstow, rh Paul Halfon, Robert McClymont, Gregg Thornberry, Emily Byles, Dan Hames, Duncan McDonagh, Siobhain Timms, rh Stephen Cable, rh Vince Hammond, Stephen McDonald, Andy Trickett, Jon Cairns, Alun Hands, Greg McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Turner, Karl Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harper, Mr Mark McDonnell, John Twigg, Derek Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harrington, Richard McFadden, rh Mr Pat Twigg, Stephen Carswell, Mr Douglas Harris, Rebecca McGovern, Alison Umunna, Mr Chuka Cash, Mr William Hart, Simon McGovern, Jim Vaz, rh Keith Chishti, Rehman Harvey, Sir Nick McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Vaz, Valerie Chope, Mr Christopher Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McKechin, Ann Walley, Joan Clappison, Mr James Hayes, Mr John McKenzie, Mr Iain Watson, Mr Tom Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heald, Oliver McKinnell, Catherine Watts, Mr Dave Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Meacher, rh Mr Michael Weir, Mr Mike Collins, Damian Heaton-Harris, Chris Meale, Sir Alan Whitehead, Dr Alan Colvile, Oliver Hemming, John Mearns, Ian Williams, Hywel Crabb, Stephen Henderson, Gordon Miliband, rh David Williamson, Chris Crockart, Mike Hendry, Charles Miliband, rh Edward Wilson, Phil Crouch, Tracey Herbert, rh Nick Miller, Andrew Wilson, Sammy Davey, rh Mr Edward Hinds, Damian Mitchell, Austin Winnick, Mr David Davies, David T. C. Hoban, Mr Mark Moon, Mrs Madeleine Winterton, rh Ms Rosie (Monmouth) Hollingbery, George Morden, Jessica Wood, Mike Davies, Glyn Hollobone, Mr Philip Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Woodcock, John Davies, Philip Holloway, Mr Adam 391 Pub Companies9 JANUARY 2013 Pub Companies 392

Hopkins, Kris Mercer, Patrick Shepherd, Sir Richard Turner, Mr Andrew Horwood, Martin Metcalfe, Stephen Simmonds, Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew Howarth, Sir Gerald Miller, rh Maria Simpson, Mr Keith Uppal, Paul Howell, John Mills, Nigel Skidmore, Chris Vaizey, Mr Edward Hughes, rh Simon Milton, Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Vara, Mr Shailesh Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Smith, Henry Vickers, Martin Huppert, Dr Julian Moore, rh Michael Smith, Julian Walker, Mr Charles Jackson, Mr Stewart Mordaunt, Penny Smith, Sir Robert Walker, Mr Robin James, Margot Morgan, Nicky Soames, rh Nicholas Wallace, Mr Ben Javid, Sajid Morris, Anne Marie Soubry, Anna Walter, Mr Robert Jenkin, Mr Bernard Morris, David Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Watkinson, Dame Angela Johnson, Gareth Morris, James Spencer, Mr Mark Weatherley, Mike Johnson, Joseph Mosley, Stephen Stanley, rh Sir John Webb, Steve Jones, Andrew Mowat, David Stephenson, Andrew Wharton, James Jones, rh Mr David Munt, Tessa Stevenson, John Wheeler, Heather Jones, Mr Marcus Murray, Sheryll Stewart, Bob White, Chris Kawczynski, Daniel Murrison, Dr Andrew Stewart, Iain Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Kelly, Chris Neill, Robert Stewart, Rory Whittingdale, Mr John Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Newmark, Mr Brooks Streeter, Mr Gary Wiggin, Bill Kirby, Simon Norman, Jesse Stride, Mel Williams, Mr Mark Knight, rh Mr Greg Nuttall, Mr David Stuart, Mr Graham Williams, Roger Kwarteng, Kwasi O’Brien, Mr Stephen Stunell, rh Andrew Williams, Stephen Laing, Mrs Eleanor Offord, Dr Matthew Sturdy, Julian Williamson, Gavin Lamb, Norman Ollerenshaw, Eric Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wilson, Mr Rob Lancaster, Mark Opperman, Guy Swinson, Jo Wishart, Pete Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Ottaway, Richard Swire, rh Mr Hugo Wollaston, Dr Sarah Latham, Pauline Paice, rh Sir James Syms, Mr Robert Wright, Jeremy Leadsom, Andrea Parish, Neil Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Wright, Simon Lee, Jessica Patel, Priti Teather, Sarah Young, rh Sir George Lee, Dr Phillip Paterson, rh Mr Owen Thurso, John Zahawi, Nadhim Leech, Mr John Pawsey, Mark Timpson, Mr Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Penrose, John Tomlinson, Justin Tellers for the Noes: Leigh, Mr Edward Perry, Claire Tredinnick, David Karen Bradley and Leslie, Charlotte Phillips, Stephen Truss, Elizabeth Mark Hunter Lewis, Brandon Pickles, rh Mr Eric Lewis, Dr Julian Pincher, Christopher Question accordingly negatived. Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Prisk, Mr Mark Lidington, rh Mr David Pritchard, Mark Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Lilley, rh Mr Peter Pugh, John That the proposed words be there added. Lloyd, Stephen Randall, rh Mr John Question agreed to. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Reckless, Mark Lopresti, Jack Redwood, rh Mr John The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as Lord, Jonathan Reid, Mr Alan amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). Loughton, Tim Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Luff, Peter Robertson, Angus Resolved, Lumley, Karen Robertson, rh Hugh That this House recalls its Resolution of 12 January 2012 on Macleod, Mary Robertson, Mr Laurence pub companies; recognises that a wide body of experts share the MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Rogerson, Dan view that only a statutory code of practice and an independent Main, Mrs Anne Rosindell, Andrew adjudicator will resolve the contractual problems between the Maude, rh Mr Francis Rudd, Amber pub companies and their lessees; calls for a statutory code, which Maynard, Paul Russell, Sir Bob would enshrine in law both an overarching fair dealing principle McCartney, Jason Rutley, David and the fundamental principle that a tied licensee should be no McCartney, Karl Sanders, Mr Adrian worse off than a free-of-tie licensee; and believes that the consultation McIntosh, Miss Anne Sandys, Laura will establish how best to do this, as well as producing proposals McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Scott, Mr Lee for a strong adjudicator with the power to arbitrate disputes, McPartland, Stephen Selous, Andrew investigate breaches of the code and impose sanctions, including McVey, Esther Sharma, Alok financial penalties for the most severe breaches, as soon as is Menzies, Mark Shelbrooke, Alec practicably possible. 393 9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 394

Rising Cost of Transport the Government are so out of touch with the pressures that families are under that they are making it easier for 4.45 pm private train companies and bus companies to hike fares and increase their profits— Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I beg to move, Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Will the hon. Lady That this House believes the rising cost of transport is adding give way? to the financial pressures facing many households; notes that the Government failed to honour its pledge to cap this month’s rail fare rises at 1 per cent above inflation, resulting in some fares Maria Eagle: I will in a moment. These companies rising by as much as 9.2 per cent; recognises that this was a direct are doing that off the back of struggling commuters consequence of the Government’s decision to give back to the and passengers. The pain is not yet over. This year, we private train operators the right to increase fares by up to an are set to see even greater pressure from the rising cost additional 5 per cent beyond the increase set by Ministers; further of transport as the Government unveil their rail fares notes that bus fares increased on average by more than twice the and ticketing review, with proposals for even higher rate of inflation in 2012; calls on the Government to ban train fares at the times when most people need to travel. operators from increasing fares beyond strict limits and to rule out the proposed introduction of a new category of super peak ticket which would increase the burden on hard-pressed commuters; Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Is not and further calls on Ministers to support transport authorities the really sneaky thing the Government’s allowing train pursuing Quality Contracts to bring accountability to bus fares, companies to regain the power of so-called “flexibility”, instead of using Better Bus Area funding to penalise authorities which enables them to increase rail fares by up to 5% on seeking to get better value for money for these taxpayer-funded top of the regulated fare increase? The Labour Government services. removed that power from them in 2009. I begin by thanking and paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Maria Eagle: My hon. Friend is entirely correct. Woodcock), who has decided, because of a head injury, Even now, this Government could put that right by to step down from his duties on the Front Bench. He simply removing that power from the train companies, has been an excellent, hard-working colleague, full of as we did in office. I invite the Secretary of State, who is ideas, and I thank him very much for all the work he has relatively new to his job, to consider that. done in my team. I know that he will be back. We have Transport Ministers and a Government who The cost of transport is rising; it is rising by more are so out of touch with the pressures that families are than the rate of inflation—by much more in many under that they are making it easier for the private train cases. That increase is being fuelled by an out-of-touch and bus companies to hike fares and increase their Government and Transport Ministers who just do not profits off the back of struggling commuters and passengers. seem to understand the pain they are imposing on hard-working people. Returning to work after the new year, those who commute by rail found that the price of Henry Smith: Will the hon. Lady give way? their tickets had increased by an average of 4.2%, and by as much as 9.2% on some routes. Over the past year, Maria Eagle: I will give way to the persistent hon. bus fares have increased by more than twice the rate of Gentleman. inflation and motorists have found that VAT at 20% wipes out any relief they have had from the deferral of Henry Smith: I am grateful that my persistence has increases in fuel duty. Yet most people are not seeing paid off. Will the hon. Lady acknowledge the considerable their wages go up by anything like as much as those investment in rail? For example, my constituency has a increases, and for many their wages or salaries are £26 million upgrade of Three Bridges station, a £53 million stagnant or falling. upgrade of Gatwick station and extra rolling stock from Thameslink and Southern. The travelling public Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Does the hon. are seeing real improvements. Lady not acknowledge that if her party were still in government and fuel duty had been 13p a litre more Maria Eagle: I acknowledge that that over a number than it is today under this Government, bus fares would of years, under the current Government and the previous have increased even more? Government, there has been big investment in rail travel. That is a good thing and I do not deny that. Maria Eagle: The hon. Gentleman knows that his Government have cut the bus service operators grant by 20%. As for any policies that a re-elected Labour Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I Government may have carried out on fuel duty, it is just want to point out that the situation is not uniform. In speculation to say that they would or would not have my constituency, London Midland has sacked the people been cut or kept; it is completely speculative to suggest who work in the ticket office and installed machines that there may not have been any changes in the intervening and CCTV cameras that do not work. Despite a promise two years— made by the Secretary of State to the House in a recent statement, there is no evidence that security has been Mr Marcus Jones: Will the hon. Lady give way? improved at all.

Maria Eagle: No, I think once is enough. Maria Eagle: My hon. Friend is correct. Significant Together with the rising costs of housing, fuel and problems are occurring with London Midland’s handling food, the rising cost of transport is adding to the of its franchise. I know that Ministers are considering cost-of-living crisis now making life much tougher for that and I hope that they will be tough and ensure that households across Britain. Yet Transport Ministers and the passengers— 395 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 396

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport doubts that, they can read the Select Committee on (Norman Baker): We are. Transport report on rail fares and franchises, published in July 2009. Lord Adonis told the Committee: Maria Eagle: We will wait and see what action the “The Government’s intention is, therefore, that in future the Government take before we conclude that they are cap should apply to individual regulated fares, not just to the being tough—I am just encouraging them to be tough. average of each fares basket.” He did not say “for one year” but “in future.” As Lord Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): Adonis reaffirmed last year, when the issue came up: Will the hon. Lady give way? “It was my firm intention to continue the policy for subsequent years, and I was mystified when…my successor”— Maria Eagle: I want to make a little progress, but I that is, the right hon. Member for Runnymede and might allow the hon. Gentleman to intervene a little Weybridge (Mr Hammond)— later. “reinstated the fares flexibility. The only people who supported The pain is not over yet. This year is set to see even this change were the train companies.” greater pressures from the rising cost of transport as the I do not therefore accept that the cap was a one-off or Government unveil their rail fares and ticketing review, that it would not have continued into the future under a with proposals for even higher fares at the times when Labour Government. most people need to travel. Ministers are to reform bus How have the Government reacted? The Under-Secretary funding in a way that, deliberately it would seem, will of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes penalise transport authorities that seek to regulate bus (Norman Baker), told passengers to stop complaining fares in the way it already happens in London. because fares are In contrast, as we set out in our motion, Labour “not nearly as expensive as is being presented”, would be taking steps now to ease the pressure on those and then told peak-time commuters that they were who rely on our public transport system, standing up to paying for a premium service. I assure the Under-Secretary the train and bus companies on behalf of commuters. that many passengers do not feel that that describes We would be on the side of passengers, not vested their experience in getting to work in the morning on an interests. overcrowded train. They do not agree with him that Last September this House debated rail fares, and to fares are not expensive. the frustration of commuters—and many on the Meanwhile, it was revealed that the hon. Gentleman’s Government Benches, judging from what they told their colleague, the Minister of State, Department for Transport, local papers—the Prime Minister marched his MPs the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), was through the Lobby to oppose Labour’s motion to cap avoiding taking the train altogether, and had a chauffeur fare rises at 1% per cent above inflation. Of course, bill to and from his constituency—a commute that Liberal Democrat MPs were marching alongside them. would take just half an hour by train on a season ticket Yet within a month of Tory and Liberal Democrat MPs that would cost taxpayers not £80,000 a year but £4,500 voting down Labour’s attempt to help commuters, we a year. Transport Ministers— had a U-turn. On the eve of his party conference, the Prime Minister finally said that he agreed with Labour, and pledged to cap the annual fare rise at 1% above Daniel Kawczynski rose— inflation. As commuters found when they returned to work this month, however, that was yet another broken Maria Eagle: No, I will make some progress. We have promise from this Prime Minister and this Government, out-of-touch Transport Ministers and a Prime Minister because fares were capped not at 1% above inflation, not willing to enforce his own commitment on fares. but at 9.2%. The reason the Prime Minister could not honour his pledge to commuters is clear: he was simply The Minister of State, Department for Transport unable or unwilling to stand up to the vested interests in (Mr Simon Burns) rose— the private train companies. They had lobbied hard before the last election to get an agreement that the Maria Eagle: I will give way to the Minister. Conservative party would give back to them a power that had been taken away by the Labour Government Mr Burns: Will the hon. Lady withdraw the accusation when times got tough—the right to turn the annual cap that she has just made—that the service to Chelmsford on fare rises into an average, turning a cap of 1% above cost £80,000? If she had done her homework or was inflation into fare rises of as much as 9.2%. being fair, she would know that pool cars cost the Department a flat rate of £80,000 for the year, regardless The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick of how many journeys they make or how far they travel. McLoughlin): I am surprised by what the hon. Lady Even if the car stopped coming to Chelmsford, the flat says. She said that the previous Labour Government fee would still be paid at the same level. took that power away from the train operators when times got tough. Will she confirm that times got tough Maria Eagle: I note the right hon. Gentleman’s attempt in 2010, which coincided with a general election? to argue that he is actually saving money for the taxpayer, and I will leave that for those who wish to report on Maria Eagle: No. There was a rule change that would these things to decide. have applied each and every year after the decision was made. Lord Adonis, who was in post at the time as Daniel Kawczynski: I am rather disappointed that at Transport Secretary, took that decision and had been the start of the hon. Lady’s speech she did not acknowledge absolutely clear about it. If anybody in the House that there had been significant increases in rail fares 397 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 398

[Daniel Kawczynski] trains is to price all but the richest off those services. The Defence Secretary gave away this Government’s under the previous Labour Administration. Her argument view of the railways when he was Transport Secretary—“a would hold more water—we are all concerned about rich man’s toy”, he called them. rising prices—if she had acknowledged that that had When these tickets are introduced, an even nastier happened under her Administration as well. shock is awaiting commuters because the Government’s paper includes modelling on how much the cost of these Maria Eagle: I do acknowledge that there were rail new super-peak tickets could rise each year. Here is fare rises of RPI plus 1 under the previous Labour what the Government chose to include in their paper as Government, but when times got tough after the global apparently the favoured option: banking crisis and financial crash, the last Government acted to protect commuters. As households struggled, “some fares (in the high peak) rising by an additional 7% annually we immediately changed the rules to force train companies (an additional 40% over the course of five years)”. to apply strictly the cap on train fares. That was 1% So there it is in black and white: new super-peak tickets above inflation, not the up to 9.2% that we have seen introduced, with their cost then rising by 7% a year and this year. That rule change would have applied each and 40% in just five years. We agree with the Transport every year from then on— Committee, which last week in its report, “Rail 2020”, urged the Government to Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con) rose— “rule out forms of demand management which would lead to even higher fares for commuters on peak time trains”. Maria Eagle: If the hon. Gentleman allows me to The Secretary of State should take the opportunity of answer the point put to me, I might consider giving way today’s debate to do just that, and I hope he will. If he to him a little later. does not, Labour will oppose any attempt to penalise Putting train companies before commuters is what commuters with new super-peak tickets. this Government are doing; when times got tough, we acted to try to support commuters. In future, if we get The Government are not only hiking the cost of the chance, we will restore the rule and put it into law so travelling by train but making it harder to buy the that passengers will always know that the cap on fare cheapest fare by supporting the campaign for the private rises set by Ministers is the one they see at the ticket train companies to close ticket offices or reduce their office. opening hours. The Government’s paper, “Rail Fares and Ticketing Review”, says: As I have said before, I believe that the previous Labour Government should have been bolder in taking “Ticket offices are the most expensive way of selling tickets…Train on the train companies and they should have done so operators will be expected to reduce their costs and this is one sooner, but the important fact is that we acted when important option they will want to consider…it may not be possible or appropriate for ticket office opening hours to continue times got really tough. This Government are just clobbering at current levels.” commuters even more. It may well be inconveniently expensive for the train Mr Marcus Jones: Will the hon. Lady give way? companies to have to employ staff to sell tickets to their passengers, but it is one of the best ways for many Maria Eagle: No. I wish to make a little progress. customers to ensure that they purchase the cheapest ticket, not least when we have a ticketing system so I think I have answered the point made by the Minister complex that it can be very confusing. Surely decisions of State. If he is trying to argue that paying for a car is should be made on the basis of what is least expensive saving money because he is not having to pay for for passengers, not what is least expensive for train commuter rail fares, that is extraordinary. companies. Mr Marcus Jones rose— We know that Ministers do not plan on listening because we have seen leaked e-mails from the Department Maria Eagle: No, I will not give way to the hon. for Transport showing that plans to close ticket offices Gentleman. are already well advanced. This is what one official said in an e-mail to the Department’s press office advising it Buried in the innocuous-sounding Government paper on what it could say on ticket office closures: “Rail Fares and Ticketing Review” is a plan to introduce a new category of ticket—the super-peak ticket. “We can’t say that the Government has no plans to close ticket offices because we have an application from London Midland It proposes where the minister has already decided to approve some ticket “a ‘high-peak’ fare priced higher than the current Anytime day office closures (it’s just not been announced yet…and there will be fare/a season ticket priced higher than the current season ticket.” more of those in the future.” So a commuter who is already paying thousands of When I first read that out last year during Transport pounds for their season ticket faces this year being told questions, the Minister, the hon. Member for Lewes, that their very expensive purchase is not valid on every said that the official must have been mistaken as he had train, even if they have no choice about when they have not approved any ticket office closures. Yet weeks later to get to work, and most people do not have that choice. it was announced that the Minister had indeed approved With a captive market, train companies will be allowed London Midland’s plans to close some ticket offices to hike fares even higher than they are now on services and reduce the opening hours of others, despite the that suffer the most overcrowding and where there is company’s abysmal performance in recent months which already no guarantee of a seat. Only this Government has caused such misery for passengers. What is even would think that the answer to overcrowding on our more revealing in the leaked e-mail is that it shows how 399 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 400 the Government intend to pass the blame for those hoped that it could absorb it without fares having to rise, which is closures on to the train companies. This is what the what we hope will happen.”—[Official Report, 2 December 2010; official told the press office: Vol. 519, c. 953.] “your way of slipping in there that the initiative comes from the What incredible naivety. TOCs”— For the subsequent two years, those who rely on local the train operating companies— bus services have had to listen to the Minister, with his “not us is very neat.” fingers in his ears, denying all knowledge of the consequences of the cuts. At Transport questions last So that is the Government’s plan for fares and ticketing: April, he said of bus services that ticket prices rising by as much as 9% every year; more “there have not been the cuts that the Opposition are so keen to expensive new super-peak tickets which mean that season talk up.”—[Official Report, 19 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 485.] ticket holders will not even be able to get on every train without paying up to 40% more than other passengers At Transport questions in November, he again refused over the next five years; and new freedoms for train to accept the truth when my hon. Friend the Member companies to close ticket offices, making it harder for for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) warned him passengers to get the best deals. What a contrast with of the higher fares and reduced services in communities the ideas to make fares and ticketing fairer and simpler up and down the country. that we have heard as a result of listening to passengers We now have the truth, because the Government have during our policy review process. had to publish the annual bus statistics for 2011-12. They clearly show an average increase in bus fares of Those ideas include a clear definition of peak and 6.5% in England and an even higher average increase of off-peak, to prevent passengers from facing massive 7.6% in non-metropolitan areas. Those are increases of extra charges on the train because it was not clear when more than double the rate of inflation on services that peak time ended, and to prevent train operators stretching are relied on by some of the poorest in our communities. their peak time to stretch their profits at the expense of passengers. Another is a legal right to the cheapest ticket, so that passengers are offered the cheapest deal Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): available, with rights to refunds if they find that they Will my hon. Friend consider whether the impact of were mis-sold a more expensive ticket. those increases will be felt by young people in particular, who have to pay high fares to get to college and to work Another idea is a more flexible way for passengers to and who are suffering a great burden because of the change travel plans so that if, through no fault of their increases being visited on them by the Government? own, they just miss a train and have an advance ticket, they can take the next train without incurring a massive Maria Eagle: My hon. Friend is right. The Government’s new fare on board. Another is a right to a discount for a own statistics also reveal the truth on lost services. rail replacement bus service, because if your train, Directly contradicting the Minister’s claims, they show Mr Deputy Speaker, becomes a bus, which usually that between 2010-11 and 2011-12, mileage on supported results in a longer journey, it should be treated in the services dropped by 10% in non-metropolitan areas in same way as a service that is delayed for any other England and by 7% in metropolitan areas. reason. Finally, it is suggested that there should be a cap on annual increases in station car parking charges, Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): My hon. Friend’s because it is increasingly clear that some train companies point about lost services is crucial to those who live in are squeezing yet more money out of hard-pressed villages in my constituency, particularly older people commuters by whacking up parking charges when we who do not have another option for transport. They should be making it easier for people to leave their car face higher transport costs because there is no bus at the station and commute, because by doing so they service any more. I am sure that my hon. Friend will are helping to cut congestion and helping the environment. agree that that is a consequence of what she is saying.

Gareth Johnson: Will the hon. Lady give way? Maria Eagle: My hon. Friend is correct in explaining the experience that his constituents are living through. Henry Smith: Will the hon. Lady give way? These are not just statistics, but the loss of actual services. Research by the Campaign for Better Transport Maria Eagle: No. Those are the changes to fares and has found that 41% of local authorities have been ticketing that passengers want, not the Government’s forced to cut services that are socially necessary and the approach, which seems to be more about what is in the support that they give them. That is on top of the cuts best interests of the train companies, not commuters. from the previous year, when one in five local council- supported bus services were cut or cut back. A tenth of If the Government are out of touch with the impact councils have had to cut more than £1 million from of fare rises on commuters, Ministers are even more support for bus services. woefully out of touch with the consequences for bus fares and services of their funding decisions since the The Government’s own watchdog, Passenger Focus, election. When they set out plans to cut 28% of funding has warned that the reduction in those services will from local transport and axe a fifth of the direct support impact disproportionately on for bus services, Ministers claimed, incredibly, that that “older people, less affluent households, those with health related could be done without an impact on fares. The Under- issues, or households containing teenagers”. Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for I hope that Ministers will accept that they cannot Lewes, told the House: remain in denial any longer about the impact of the cuts “When I spoke to the industry following the spending review to bus services—cuts that could have been avoided in announcement, it indicated that the cut was so minimal that it their entirety just by using the Department’s underspend 401 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 402

[Maria Eagle] and reduced services, and standing in the way of local authorities that are seeking reform to deliver more for from last year, which Ministers handed back to the less and keep down fares. Treasury. Ministers need to explain to parents why they On rail and bus services, the cost of transport is rising are having to struggle with the extra costs of getting by well above the rate of inflation. The Government their teenagers to college. They should explain to pensioners should listen to passengers, and the House should support why the Prime Minister’s election pledge to protect their the motion. Let this be the last year when the train bus pass did not extend to protecting their local bus companies are allowed to turn the so-called cap on fare services, leaving many with a bus pass but no bus on rises into an average. The Government should restore which to use it, thereby reducing their access to shops the strict cap on fares that was introduced by Labour and vital services and increasing their isolation. and that they scrapped. They should also listen to passengers about ticket offices and look at the ideas Gareth Johnson: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady that we have set out to make fares and ticketing fairer for giving way. Clearly, bus services, train services and and simpler. The Government have so far shown themselves transport systems have always had to be paid for in to be completely out of touch on the rising cost of some way or another. Does she feel that most of the transport and the pressure that it is causing for families burden should fall on the passenger or on the taxpayer? who are already feeling the squeeze on household budgets. Today is an opportunity for Ministers to start listening, Maria Eagle: The hon. Gentleman has missed out the recognise the consequences of the misguided decisions profits of rail and bus companies. Perhaps those ought that their predecessors have taken over the past two to be looked at as well. As he knows, all Governments years on rail and bus services, and act. I invite the have to strike a balance. This Government have to do Secretary of State for Transport to do so. so, as did the previous one, and that will no doubt be the case for the next one too. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before I call Because bus services outside London were deregulated, the Secretary of State, I should say that there will be a local authorities have for far too long been unable to time limit on contributions. It is difficult to say what the limit fare rises or properly plan the network of local bus limit will be until the Secretary of State sits down, but I services in the interests of passengers and economic should not think that it will be much more than six growth in their area. That is why the last Labour minutes. Government changed the law to enable transport authorities to use quality contracts to move to a tendered model for 5.14 pm bus services, thereby bringing accountability over fares. The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): Will the hon. McLoughlin): I start on a bipartisan note by joining the Lady give way? hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) in wishing her colleague the hon. Member for Barrow Maria Eagle: No. and Furness (John Woodcock), whom I see in his place, a speedy recovery and return to the Front Bench. We all That model means that decisions on fare rises are wish him well and understand why he has taken the made by politicians, just as we have always accepted decision that he has in the short term. should happen for rail fares and as has happened for bus services in London. However, the integrated transport I could not help but think that the hon. Member for authorities that are rightly going down that route are Garston and Halewood and myself must have lived in finding that they are up against the vested interests in different countries. From listening to her speech, it was the private bus companies. Stagecoach is the worst almost as if there had been utopia until the general culprit and has threatened to close depots, sack drivers election, with everything fine and wonderful and the and take buses off the road overnight. Sir Brian Souter train companies bowing to the wishes of the Government claimed that he would rather “take poison” than enter a and always doing what was right by consumers and the quality contract. His managing director accused the Government. Then I read a few Select Committee reports elected accountable transport authority of from the last Parliament to put me on the right track. I could not help but be struck by a report of the Transport “operating in the same camp as Marx, Lenin and Trotsky.” Committee from 2006, when it had a Labour majority Have the Government stood by transport authorities and a Labour Chairman. It stated: that are trying to secure a better deal in the use of “Both the Department for Transport and the train operating taxpayers’ money? No. On the contrary, the Government companies quoted growth and the fact that ‘the UK has the are using their reform of bus funding to stack the odds fastest-growing rail patronage in Europe’ as reasons not to be even further against transport authorities. They are overly concerned about price levels. Indeed, the Government caving in to pressure from the bus companies and demonstrated breathtaking complacency” proposing to exclude from better bus area funding, about fares and ticketing. The hon. Lady should not authorities that seek greater control over fares through imagine that the problem of fare rises is new. She said quality contracts. Yet again, the Government are on the that there was no recession then, but we were about to side of the wrong people and are putting the interests of go into one of the biggest recessions that this country the bus companies before bus passengers. The Government has ever suffered. I will come to that a little later, but I should think again and work with councils, not against am conscious of time—although you did not tell me to them. Ministers should say to the bus companies, “You be brief, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am aware of the fact that operate successfully in a regulated system right across you said there will be a time limit on speeches. I will try Europe and you can do so here.” Instead, Ministers are to be a lot briefer than the shadow Secretary of State cutting funding, oblivious to the impact on rising fares was in her 30-minute opening speech. 403 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 404

I am afraid that a lot of what the hon. Lady said was problems on my plate without making commitments a mixture of the ill informed and the inaccurate. The for 2017. I look forward, however, to a Conservative motion does nothing to help passengers or investment, Government making that decision—that is as far as I and it says all that we need to know about the Labour will go towards meeting that commitment at the moment. party. Let us be plain about some of the facts, which The fact that we have capped fares to RPI plus 1% might help the Opposition. The motion calls on the will benefit more than a quarter of a million annual Government to cap regulated fares at 1% above inflation. season ticket holders by around £45 a year, and some We have. It was the last Government who planned for commuters will be more than £200 better off over the 70% of costs to be met by fare payers in 2013 and 2014, two years. The motion before the House is confused in which would mean fares rising this year not by 1% above another way. It attacks the flexibility that allows operators inflation but by double that. The fare rises are lower to increase some regulated fares by more than RPI plus than they would have been under Labour’s plans. That 1% if they cut other fares by an equal amount—for would have been an additional tax on hard-working example, on Virgin Trains the Rugby to Euston season commuters that we have not been prepared to impose. ticket has increased by almost 1% less than inflation. I do agree with the shadow Secretary of State on Today, the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood some things. She has said that tried to claim that it was not the last Government who “we should reduce the public subsidy to the rail industry”.—[Official introduced that flexibility, or that such flexibility existed Report, 19 May 2011; Vol. 528, c. 522.] for more than one year. The changes to the agreement, I agree. She has also said that if she were running the which I can read to her, make it clear. The deed of Department’s budget now, amendment states: “we would have to make difficult and painful decisions in respect “With effect from 00.00 on 1 January 2010 Schedule 5.5 of the of cutting the deficit”. Franchise Agreement will be amended as set out in the Appendix to the Deed…From 00.00 on 1 January 2011”. Indeed, and Labour did make some of those difficult decisions. She talked about ticket office opening hours, Therefore, the agreement was amended for just one and it is a fact that in the last five years of the Labour year. Government, Ministers approved cuts in opening hours at approximately 300 stations. Now the Opposition Maria Eagle: Is the Secretary of State saying that seem to think that that is wholly wrong, but they were Lord Adonis, whom he just praised, misled the Transport only too aware of the need for it when they were in Committee when he said that he intended the agreement government. to go into the future and that it was a permanent change? Does he realise—he will find it out in 2014—that I agree with the hon. Lady, too, that it is right that we the year before an election, the limits of how far into the have a record level of investment in our railways at the future one can go in the time of one’s successors are set moment, and that railway passengers have to contribute by Whitehall and are different from those for the beginning to that as well as the taxpayer. We have more trains and of a Parliament? better services and we are delivering new lines. We are also delivering for passengers by capping the average Mr McLoughlin: I am not accusing the noble Lord of increase in regulated fares at RPI plus 1% not just this misleading anybody; I am informing the House of what year but last year and next. he did as Secretary of State. He may have wished his changes to last longer, but they did not and were solely Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): for that one year. Indeed, when the 5% flexibility was I note that my right hon. Friend and his fellow Ministers introduced in 2004 it led to some increases of 11% under have a long-term aim of reducing the cost of railways to the previous Labour Government in 2009 alone. That both passengers and taxpayers, and therefore ending flexibility was suspended for one year—an election the era of the above-inflation rail fare increase. Will he year. therefore reassure me that he will not look to the taxpayer However, that is not Labour policy now. How do we and the fare-paying passenger to bear the £33 billion know? Well, let us look at Wales where this year under cost of his plans for the High Speed 2 railway? the Labour devolved Administration fares went up by RPI plus 1%, with flexibility of 5%. Mr McLoughlin: I am grateful to reaffirm to my right hon. Friend the Government’s commitment to adopt Henry Smith: My right hon. Friend is right. Labour what was Lord Adonis’s plan for HS2, and I pay tribute says it has changed its policy on fare flexibility, but in to the former Secretary of State. My right hon. Friend Wales, where it is in charge of the devolved Administration, and I disagree on HS2. I believe that it is vital for future it has agreed flexibility of up to 5% on train fares. investment and opportunities for the whole country. I will say more about that in the House in a few weeks’ Mr McLoughlin: Indeed; I am grateful to my hon. time. Friend. I hope no Welsh Labour MPs support the motion tabled by the shadow Secretary of State. If they David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Will my right do, not only will they back up my argument that we are hon. Friend also mention the rise in transport costs for having a synthetic debate introduced by an Opposition users of the Severn bridge and say whether there is any who have synthetic policies on transport costs, but they possibility of capping those increases when the bridge will not mean what they say. When Labour is in a returns to public ownership in 2017-18? position to change the rules, it does not do so. In Wales, it has accepted the flexibility it believes it needs to Mr McLoughlin: If I am still Secretary of State in provide a proper service; the Labour Government in 2017, I will have been the longest serving Transport Wales have acted in exactly the same way as the UK Secretary. If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I have enough Government. 405 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 406

Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): Will Julie Hilling: Will the Secretary of State give way? the Secretary of State give way? Mr McLoughlin: I must press on. I am sorry I cannot Mr McLoughlin: I will, but unfortunately Birmingham give way to the hon. Lady. The facts I have pointed out is a few miles away from Wales. are in the report. I will try to make progress and give other hon. Members the chance to contribute to the Richard Burden: Indeed it is. The Secretary of State debate. says that the debate is synthetic, but the anger of my We are putting record investment into the railways. In constituents and many others at the performance of the 19th century, our railway was a symbol of Britain’s London Midland in the past year is not synthetic. He innovation—including London’s underground, the first has recently dumped the deal with London Midland. anywhere and 150 years old today. Now, the railway is The good news is that that provides some pre-concessions experiencing an extraordinary renaissance. Last year, to passengers, but it is also said that he has not actioned the number of passenger miles travelled was almost a break clause in the contract. That could have happened 50% higher than it was in 2000. More people are travelling at the end of this year, but it has been extended to 2015. by rail today than at any time since the 1920s, and rail It is also unclear what milestones and review mechanisms freight has grown by more than 60% since privatisation. will be in place to hold London Midland to its word. We have soaring demand, but limited space. Regular Will he clarify whether his measures give London Midland passengers on busy lines know only too well what that more of a free rein or whether he will introduce a can mean—overcrowded carriages and uncomfortable measure that forces it to do what it says it will do? journeys. That is not good enough and we are going to sort it out. Mr McLoughlin: The Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman In July, we announced £16 billion of funding for the Baker), has made a statement on that, in which he also network between 2014 and 2019. Inter-city travellers outlined some of the requirements we expect of London will benefit from the completion of the northern hub in Midland. He and I will be watching the performance of Manchester, a £240 million investment on the east coast that franchise very carefully. It is important that we give main line and a further £300 million for high-value, passengers the service they rightly expect and demand. small-scale schemes in other parts of the country. We We have put in place a number of measures that will approved a £4.5 billion contract to build a new generation cost London Midland considerable money to put into of inter-city trains in County Durham, creating some operation, and I expect it to do so. 900 jobs, and we are procuring thousands of new carriages for Crossrail and Thameslink. We are also getting cracking I am conscious of the time—time moves on when I with HS2, the biggest new transport scheme since the am continually trying to help colleagues to understand building of the motorways. Meeting demand, however, where their policies have gone wrong in the past. We are is only part of the problem. looking at ways to improve our railway services. As I have said, the Labour party, which is in control in While the previous Government blew the budget, the Wales, has kept exactly the same flexibility on rail fares railway was allowed to grow wasteful—up to 40% more that the UK Government have retained. expensive to run than those of our European competitors. In 10 years, the Labour Government electrified only We have therefore had to take a hard look at the 10 miles of railways; this Government will electrify industry and have a rail reform programme to tackle the 850 miles, including the midland main line, for which £3.5 billion annual efficiency gap identified by the McNulty my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky report in his rail value-for-money study. Already, major Morgan), the Whip, who is sitting on the Front Bench, savings are being found. Ultimately, this focus on efficiency has campaigned so hard. will help us to deliver our goal and put an end to above-inflation fare increases at the earliest opportunity. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Will the Secretary A railway that is efficient and modern is a railway that is of State give way? affordable to use.

Mr McLoughlin: I will give way only briefly, because Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): May I ask the Secretary I am conscious of the time. of State whether, in his drive for efficiency and savings, he can give assurances to the steel industry that it will Julie Hilling: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember not be penalised by rail freight charges? the amount of money the Labour Government had to put into the railway to rebuild it after 18 years of no Mr McLoughlin: I will look at the hon. Lady’s point, investment under the previous Tory Administration? but I hope she will make representations to the Welsh Assembly following the motion that the hon. Member Mr McLoughlin: The hon. Lady is a sadly missed for Garston and Halewood has tabled. Perhaps the hon. member of the Transport Committee, and was there Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) will consider not when I first appeared before it. She should be careful, voting for the motion in light of it being in direct however, because she was probably a member of the competition to what the Welsh Assembly, which I Committee during its inquiry on Rail 2020, which quite understand is Labour controlled, is doing. clearly shows that the worst year for subsidising the railways was 2000-01. I cannot remember what party Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) was in government at that time, but it is true that (Lab): I am conscious that the Secretary of State has investment went up afterwards—[Interruption.] She is not yet referred to bus services. My constituents rely looking for the page number. Page 9 simply and entirely on bus services, as they do not have the luxury straightforwardly sets out the record. of a rail link. Does he agree that it is entirely wrong for 407 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 408 operators such as Stagecoach to scaremonger about the that 850 miles of line were to be electrified—well, not in introduction of quality contracts in Tyne and Wear and the north-east of England, I am afraid. He also mentioned to threaten to sack staff and pull out of the region? that £240 million was to be invested in the east coast Should the Government not back up integrated transport main line. On the basis of current profits and the authorities, such as mine, which are making decisions amount of money going back to the Department for that are in the best interests of local people? Transport from the east coast main line, that is about one and a quarter years’ operating profit—so not much Mr McLoughlin: I am coming on to say something to be thankful for there. Rail passenger groups have about bus companies, but I will not comment on individual warned that, although some east coast main line work contracts that are being negotiated, as it would be will speed up connections, almost none of Network wholly wrong of me to do so. Rail’s refurbishment money will go to north-east England. I want passengers to get the best deal from a ticket Incidentally, the east coast main line is operated by system that is easy to understand, and that is why we Directly Operated Railways, which is owned, in turn, by have set up the fare and ticketing review. This is not the Secretary of State and the Department, so he has about higher fares; it is about simpler fares. It is not significant influence over the company—or certainly about catching out passengers who have to travel when should have. trains are busiest, but getting good deals for people Lines in the region calling out for electrification, new when there are seats to spare. Taxpayers, whether they passenger services or full-scale reopening have had their use trains or not, all contribute to the cost of running case turned down, as money has gone instead to improving the railway. I know that when people face big bills and services via Manchester and Leeds, as well as improving tough times they really feel the pressure of higher fares. links to London. Of the £37.5 billion budget, only a That is why we are looking at ideas such as smart pittance is earmarked for track enhancements in the ticketing and more flexible season tickets, so that they north-east—mainly for the easing of the so-called pinch only have to pay when they actually need to travel. The points between Northallerton and Ferryhill. From a way we work is changing and it is right that tickets north-east perspective, projects would help to boost change too. mobility and connectivity in our region and enhance This Government are on the side of passengers, whether our prospects for economic growth. they use trains or buses. That is why we have protected This snubbing, yet again, of the north-east is particularly free bus travel for pensioners and are putting in place a galling given the range of fare deals being offered to level playing field so that operators can compete to north-east customers, compared with our Scottish bring fares down. The basic truth, however, is that the counterparts, by the east coast main line. We sometimes cost of bus travel has risen, including during the decade have to pay £100 more for a journey that is an hour and to 2010 under the Labour Government, and that is a half and a 100 miles less. I have no quarrel with my mainly due to higher operator costs, such as fuel. Scottish colleagues and their constituents getting good deals from east coast main line, but on behalf of my Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Will the Secretary constituents, I have a duty to demand the same kind of of State give way? deals and discounts for the travelling public in the north-east as those from which colleagues north of the Mr McLoughlin: I am sorry, but I must make some border benefit. progress. The east coast main line is working at a significant From the first day of the coalition Government, our profit and contributing those profits to the national priority has been to tackle the deficit that we inherited, pot. to rebalance our economy, to get people back to work and to boost growth. Transport plays a key part in that Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): I had a look at the fares process. This Government have capped fare rises. We on the internet just before we came into the Chamber. A are getting the investment in, tackling overcrowding, return fare from Newcastle to King’s Cross was £301. increasing seats and services, and delivering High Speed 2. With the minimum wage at £6.19, that means that It is the right deal for passengers and the right deal for people have to pay 48.62 hours of work at the minimum Britain’s future. wage for one journey from Newcastle to London return. Is that fair? Mr Speaker: There is a six-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches, and it applies with immediate effect. Ian Mearns: There is an awful lot about current fare structures that is desperately unfair, particularly for 5.34 pm people on low wages and those trying to get jobs, and particularly in a region such as the north-east, where Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): I welcome the manyhavetotraveltogetwork. opportunity to speak in today’s debate, which is extremely As the independent report stated in September, a timely, given the news in today’s newspapers that once railway company that was temporarily renationalised again the north-east is to lose out on vital rail infrastructure by the Government three years ago reported increased investment. I want to draw some important links between profits and an improvement in passenger satisfaction. fares paid, the turnover of rail operating companies, the DOR, which took over the running of the east coast profits they make and levels of investment. line from National Express, said that its operating profit This morning, The Journal in Newcastle announced increased by 7% in the year to March to £7.1 million. that Network Rail’s £37 billion five-year improvement Turnover for the year amounted to £665.8 million—an programme looked set to snub a wish list of north-east increase of £20 million—leaving a profit before tax and track upgrades. The Secretary of State just trumpeted service payments to the Department of £195.7 million. 409 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 410

[Ian Mearns] pay above the statutory minimum and no travel allowances. The east coast franchise, which likes to promote itself as That was an increase of £13 million. Putting that against a first-class service, was treating employees of its contract the £240 million proposed investment in the east coast cleaning company in a third-class way. ISS is a huge main line makes the amount look extremely modest multinational company, with more than 500,000 employees indeed. worldwide, 43,000 of whom work in the United Kingdom. I have a great deal of respect for east coast main line It is disgusting that it was able to do that to its hard-working as a franchise. I sympathise with its staff, who often employees. Indeed, following on from yesterday’s debate, work in difficult circumstances, dealing with the failures this has a knock-on effect, as the Government have to of creaking infrastructure and worn out rolling stock fork out in-work benefits to many of these people to and equipment, yet an awful lot of what the travelling subsidise the industry. public have to put up with on the east coast main line Pressure must be put on Network Rail by the could be avoided through some relatively modest investment, Government to ensure that north-east services get a fair which would be entirely affordable given its profits. allocation of resources. Connectivity, particularly by rail, is essential to the economic prospects of regions Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ such as the north-east. Despite their stated commitment Co-op): My hon. Friend mentions the east coast main to reduce the deficit, the Government still find themselves, line staff, who do indeed provide a good service to month after month, deepening the crisis yet further. passengers. I am sure that he, like me, frequently comes When will they recognise the essential link between across people who are confused about whether they investment in growth, particularly in regions such as the have the right ticket for a journey—a train might be late north-east, and their prime aim of deficit reduction? or they might get on the wrong train. The poor staff The two are absolutely connected. then have to deal with the problems that that creates. Is that not an example of the kind of complication that 5.43 pm drives away passengers and often makes them go for higher fares rather than cheaper ones? Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): The motion before us is very disappointing. It fails to Ian Mearns: Indeed, and one criticism I would make recognise why there are costs in our transport system or of the last Government is that they did not sort out the what the Government are already doing about them. complicated franchising system, which has left us with a I want to focus on the rail network, because it is the complicated rail ownership programme across the country. transport area undergoing the most significant change, The Chancellor of the Exchequer proudly announced as we are in the biggest period of rail investment since investment in infrastructure as a means to unlock growth. the Victorian era. We all know that there are inefficiencies However, analysis by the Institute for Public Policy in our rail system. The McNulty review, which was Research shows a biased picture. The think-tank examined commissioned by the previous Government, reported the data, detailing the projects to be brought forward as inefficiencies of between £2.5 billion and £3.5 billion in part of the national infrastructure pipeline. Of the the system, and found that our railways were up to 40% projects that were identified as benefiting a particular less efficient than the best of our European counterparts. region and where public funding was involved, it found Those are inconvenient facts that the motion ignores. It that London and the south-east accounted for 84% of also ignores the success of the industry. As my right planned spending, compared with 6% in the north. hon. Friend the Secretary of State mentioned, there are That equates to some £2,700 a head for each Londoner, as many passengers on our rail network now as there which is more than the total for all the other regions were in the 1920s, yet the network is significantly smaller combined, which includes £201 a head for Yorkshire than it was then. That is one of the causes of overcrowding. and Humberside, £134 a head for the north-west and It also shows, however, that passengers are choosing to just a fiver for the north-east of England. My constituents use rail. do not believe those figures, but they are absolutely I am going to talk about an area in which the right. Why, if we get a meagre £5 of investment per Government have introduced a radical change of policy head, should we pay extortionate rises in rail fares, that will cut costs for passengers and improve the service which have risen nearly three times faster than wages they receive. That policy is rail electrification. Let me since the recession? In fact, between 2008 and 2012, remind the House of how the UK performs in this area. average rail fares increased by 26.6%, with wages rising We have electrified 34% of our network. In 2010, the by just 9.6% over the same period. Recent research by UK was 20th out of 29 European countries in the league the think-tank Transport for Quality of Life has shown table of electrification. We are ahead of the former that UK rail fares are the most expensive in Europe and Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Latvia, Estonia, Greece that rail privatisation is costing taxpayers £1.2 billion a and Lithuania. Wales and Albania were the only two year, with train operating companies making large profits countries without a single mile of electrified railway. on the back of public subsidies. Why does this matter? It matters because electrifies Speaking of profits, I was appalled to learn recently railways are cheaper to run. Electric trains are cheaper of a dispute over pay involving east coast main line and to buy. They weigh less, and so put less wear and tear on a subsidiary company called ISS—International Service the network, which in turn costs less to maintain. They System—which centred on its cleaning staff. Cleaners require less engine space, and so can accommodate were being paid £6.08 an hour—a figure that is below more passengers, which contributes to the capacity the national minimum wage and is, I believe, illegal. On issue. They can accelerate and decelerate more quickly top of that, they got no pension scheme, no enhancements than diesel trains. This means that passengers can enjoy for unsocial hours, bank holidays or weekends, no sick faster journey times or that there can be more stops for 411 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 412 the same journey time, or that there can be a combination in the system. I think the Opposition know that, which of the two. They are also, of course, more environmentally is why they commissioned the McNulty report in the friendly. Rail electrification is part of the long-term first place. Overall, I completely agree with the desire to solution in taking cost out of running our railways. cut the cost of travel in the UK, but I will not support I mentioned earlier that this area has seen a radical the motion because it fails to take so many important change of policy direction. Labour managed just 10 miles issues into account. of rail electrification in 13 years. That is not even a I have been talking about rail solutions, but the snail’s pace. In contrast, this Government have announced Government have been taking action in other areas, as 850 miles, and we are only halfway through this Parliament. well. We should look at the different approach to fuel That represents a huge change of scale and ambition, duty. The last Government increased fuel duty 12 times, tackling cost and capacity for the longer term. and left office with six further rises planned. This Government have stopped them, and as a result motorists Mrs Gillan: Does my hon. Friend agree that this are seeing fuel duty 13p a litre lower. Government have also led the way by announcing I welcome the Opposition’s interest in delivering value the electrification of the railway line from London all for taxpayers and passengers, but it is a late conversion. the way down to Swansea and, more importantly, the As identified in the McNulty report, they left our rail electrification of the valleys lines in south Wales, which network inefficient. Under the last Government, rail will mean a great deal to a large number of people? I am subsidy went up by 337% at a time when passengers saw pleased to say that those measures are supported by real-terms fare rises. Bus subsidies went up by 127%, Members on both sides of the House, and I look despite real-terms fare increases again. It is only by forward to the projects being completed in due course. tackling the underlying drivers of cost that better value Andrew Jones: I completely agree with my right hon. will be delivered for taxpayers. This motion does not Friend. This is not just an abstract policy; we are seeing even consider that, which is why I will not support it. real change on the ground, and there is good news right across the country. As she says, the Great Western main 5.51 pm line is being electrified between London and Swansea, Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): along with the valleys lines and the vale of Glamorgan Transport is a vital issue. It is essential for people to get line, which will bring electrification to Wales for the first to work and to get to social amenities. That is why it is time. The midland main line is being electrified between so important that we debate not just the provision of London and Sheffield, and that will obviously include transport itself, but the cost—because transport has to Loughborough. A matter of great importance to my be affordable if it is to be put to best use. I shall confine constituents in Harrogate and Knaresborough will be my comments to the rail service, and I shall refer to the electrification of the TransPennine Express services some of the findings of the Transport Committee’s between Leeds and Manchester. That is just part of the report on rail, which was recently published. There will massive rail investment that we are seeing in the north. be an opportunity tomorrow to debate the Select There are many other projects, and I would like to Committee’s report on bus services, and I hope there highlight the complete funding of the northern hub, will be the same number of Members in Westminster which will vastly increase capacity between our great Hall tomorrow afternoon as there are in this Chamber northern cities. today. Those projects involve major long-term funding decisions. It is important to note that rail is, in fact, increasingly Sometimes, we have been reluctant to take such decisions, popular. The number of people travelling by rail has but not under this Government. The ministerial team doubled in recent years, while the amount of freight deserves praise for that. However, I cannot resist taking carriage has increased by about 40%. There is rising this opportunity to highlight a marvellous electrification concern, however, about fare levels. I assume that that opportunity. This is a bit of a local advert, and I thank explains why the Government’s proposal to increase the Ministers for listening. I am talking about the regulated fares by an average of RPI plus 3% was Leeds-Harrogate-York line. The line has up to 3 million reduced to RPI plus 1%—because of the public outcry passengers a year, its usage is growing rapidly and it and concern about increased fares. It is also true that serves an area of high economic activity. The area the Government are implementing a policy—indeed, also has a significant visitor economy. The Harrogate they inherited it—whereby passengers were expected to international conference centre attracts more than 300,000 pay an increasingly higher percentage of the cost of rail visitors a year, and 500,000 visitors attend the Great than the taxpayer. Important issues remain about how Yorkshire show each year. The area is so inadequately this policy is applied, about the cost of running the served by its rail facilities, however, that less than 20% railways, about how efficiencies can be achieved and of its visitors arrive by rail. about how costs and the allocation of subsidies can be Electrification of the line is part of the solution. assessed. There is enormous support for the electrification of our line—from all the councils along the route, from the Kwasi Kwarteng: The hon. Lady made an important West Yorkshire passenger transport executive and, of point in saying that both the Conservatives and Liberal course, from all the local chambers of trade and commerce. Democrats in government and Labour decided to shift May I therefore ask the Minister, perhaps a little cheekily, to some degree the cost of rail transport from the to look at what can be done for the Leeds-Harrogate-York taxpayer to the passenger. The hon. Member for Garston line and to meet me and colleagues to discuss it? and Halewood (Maria Eagle) did not comment on the The questions we should be asking today about transport issue from the Front Bench, so I was wondering what costs are not those in the motion before us. We should level of subsidy and what proportion of the cost should be looking at the underlying reasons why we have cost be borne by the passenger? 413 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 414

Mrs Ellman: At the moment, the overall distribution significant proportion of the £4 billion that is going is about 60% for the passenger and 40% for the taxpayer. into the overall system. The area covers wide expanses, In the breakdown of how the funds are allocated on including the west coast main line run by Virgin and different types of services, however, there are very stark Cumbrian rail services run by Northern Rail. We have differences. It is in respect of the allocation of the cost been given an overall figure—a very major figure—but and the resultant proportions of contributions made by we do not know how the subsidy is allocated between taxpayers and passengers where further major questions different services, or indeed between different parts of need to be asked. That is why the Select Committee the country. That is just one example of the need for report highlighted the need for more transparency about more transparency so that we can assess whether subsidies the cost of different types of services and where the are effective. subsidy goes. I welcome Network Rail’s recent announcement that The Committee’s main conclusion was that the more than £35 billion will be invested in the next Government should rule out demand management that control period, 2014-19. However, the Committee will would lead to even higher fares at peak times. It made look at the figures in detail and consider what they the important point that many people have to travel at actually mean, and the rail regulator will look at them peak times in order to get to work. as well before anything is finally approved. It should be noted that although the announcement of more much- Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): We must all needed investment in the rail system has been welcomed, acknowledge that at peak times the demand placed on passengers have expressed the fear that they will have to the rail network can far outstrip supply. How does the pay for it through even higher fares, which renders the hon. Lady think demand can be prevented from exceeding need to look again at a policy on regulated fares even supply? Does she not agree that more should be done to more urgent. The Committee has asked Ministers to do encourage investment in local areas, outside the major that. cities, in order to remove the need for most of us to commute? In due course there will be an opportunity to discuss the Committee’s complete findings, and we will do more Mrs Ellman: People often travel at peak times because work on rail franchising and rolling stock acquisitions, those are the times when they have to get to work. They another important area in respect of savings. I hope my have no choice. However, there are other ways of addressing comments this afternoon have helped to inform the the question of demand, and I shall say something debate. Rail is increasingly popular and a good service about them later. is currently offered, but there is increasing concern about fare levels, and we must address that. The report also talks of the importance of achieving efficiencies, although we think that the aim of making efficiency savings of £3.5 billion by 2018, as McNulty 6pm recommends, is a challenging one. The bringing together Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): After many of different parts of the rail industry in the Rail years of above-inflation rail fare increases, rail fares are Development Group, and through other means, is welcome, now simply too high, so I am pleased that as a result of but it is important for the industry then to work in the pressure from the Liberal Democrats and others, the interests of passengers and the taxpayer, not just in its coalition Government’s previous plan of introducing own interests. It is also important for it not to cut an increase of the retail prices index plus 3%—which corners and put safety at risk in order to achieve efficiencies. would have made a bad situation even worse—has been We have high safety standards which should not be dropped and that that increase has been reduced to RPI jeopardised, and strong regulation is particularly important plus 1%, which means fares will be lower than they for that reason. The regulator needs to be able to act would have been under the previous Labour Government. firmly and decisively. Members have mentioned other means of achieving Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) efficiencies and reducing fares, or at least reducing the (SNP): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? rate of increase in fares. We need to think about smart ticketing and innovation, and about introducing more flexibility in the way in which fares policy is drawn up Mr Reid: I certainly will. I wonder whether the hon. and implemented, which has been sadly lacking. There Gentleman will draw the House’s attention to the fact should also be more transparency in the use of public that his Scottish National party Government have raised funds. It is extremely important for the rail service to fares to his constituency and to Tiree and Coll in my receive a public subsidy, because it is a public service, constituency by 10%. but it is equally important for the £4 billion public subsidy going into the system this year to be dealt with Mr MacNeil: RPI plus 1% was an SNP Government in a way that people understand, so that they can assess policy, so this is a case of stolen clothes. Unfortunately, whether it is being used effectively. Not all the information ferry fares have risen for haulage, but there was no effort that we have at present enables them to do that. at all to reduce ferry fares under the Edinburgh Liberal- Labour Administration. Will the hon. Gentleman apologise Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the hon. Lady for that? give way? Mr Reid: I am certainly not going to apologise after Mrs Ellman: I am sorry, but my time is very limited. the SNP has just increased ferry fares by 10%. The hon. Some information has been published about the subsidy Gentleman is right, however, that the SNP Government for the London North Western route, which, we are in Scotland copied the Government here, so the rail fare told, amounted to £1.2 billion in 2010-11. That is a increase in Scotland is also RPI plus 1%. 415 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 416

Liberal Democrats believe it is important to end the sustainable transport fund for cycling infrastructure, era of above-inflation rail price increases as soon as including cycling safety. No matter how much effort is possible. However, that important aim has to be balanced put into providing public transport and encouraging with the need to raise cash for the investment that our people to use it, in rural areas, particularly sparsely railways so badly need. Our railways have suffered from populated ones such as mine, the car will always be part decades of chronic under-investment, leading to a system of the transport solution. So I am pleased that the which was increasingly inefficient, overcrowded and Government abandoned Labour’s fuel duty escalator highly expensive to run. I am therefore pleased that the and have reduced fuel duty by 1p a litre on the mainland coalition Government have committed to invest about and by 6p a litre on the islands. I hope that the Government £16 billion in our railways up to 2019. That will support will soon get the EU approval required to extend this over £9 billion-worth of improvements, which will help scheme to remote parts of the mainland. to provide more services and greater capacity, particularly for commuters to our nation’s biggest cities. Mr MacNeil: Hear, hear. The coalition Government are currently overseeing the biggest investment in our railway infrastructure Mr Reid: I am glad that policy is welcomed by the since the Victorian era, and at the same time we are hon. Gentleman. This is the one Government policy he working hard to reform our railways and reduce is very supportive of, but it has certainly done a tremendous unnecessary costs. The coalition plans for further rail amount for his constituency. I am sure that he is suitably electrification will also ultimately result in over 800 miles grateful. of track being electrified. Many speakers have contrasted that with the record of the previous Government. Our Mr MacNeil: Does the hon. Gentleman not feel that future plans include the important High Speed 2 project. the 5p reduction is perhaps a bit small and that, given It will create a direct high-speed link between London the price of fuel, we should be striving to make that and Birmingham, which will eventually extend to derogation from the European Union somewhat greater? Manchester and Leeds, and, I hope, Edinburgh and Glasgow as well. That will help enhance rail connections Mr Reid: I would certainly support any efforts to throughout the country and reduce journey times, and increase that discount. Such a move would need EU boost future opportunities for jobs and growth. agreement, but I would certainly be happy to work with I will not support the Opposition motion, as it has the hon. Gentleman to try to obtain it. It is important fallen into the typical Opposition party trap of calling to point out that from April fuel duty in his constituency for fare cuts while saying nothing about where the money will be almost 20p a litre less than it would have been will come from for the investment our railway system so had the previous Government’s policies continued. badly needs. Liberal Democrats and Conservatives are I hope the Government will introduce road pricing working together in government to put our railways on on motorways and major trunk roads, using that income a sustainable footing, and we hope it will soon be to reduce fuel duty. Such a system would rightly tax possible to keep fare increases below inflation. people more for using their car on journeys where there is a public transport alternative. This coalition Government Although the country needs to reduce the deficit, I are tackling the problems of lack of investment in our am pleased that the Minister, my hon. Friend the Member public transport system, in contrast to the Labour for Lewes (Norman Baker), has recently been able to motion, which offers no solutions whatsoever. I certainly announce more than £120 million of funding for buses, will not be supporting the Labour motion, and I am including £31 million for low-carbon buses. I also welcome sure it will be overwhelmingly defeated. his launch last year of the Government’s policy document, “Green Light for Better Buses”. It sets out a series of reforms that will attract more people on to the buses, 6.7 pm ensure better value for the taxpayer and give local Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ authorities more influence over their bus networks. Co-op): The starting point for this debate has to be the Ultimately, it is for local authorities working in partnership fact that Great Britain has some of the highest rail fares with their communities to identify the right transport in Europe. I recognise, of course, that to pay for investment solutions for their areas. in the rail network the passenger—the fare box—will have to make an important contribution to the funds Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): Is required. However, the passenger should not be asked the hon. Gentleman not aware that outside London to pay an unfair burden, and one way in which we can there has been a continuing decline in the level of bus ensure that passengers are not forced to pay more than patronage and that the real answer to that is, as the they need to is by ensuring that the revenue earned from shadow Secretary of State said, to have quality contracts the network is actually used for the benefit of the or to re-regulate the buses? What are his Government network—for the benefit of passengers—and is not going to do about that? siphoned off out of the system. The evidence from the decades of the privatisation Mr Reid: The important thing is that the Government regime, instituted by a previous Conservative Government, work together with local authorities and that power is is overwhelmingly clear. That approach has meant that devolved to them to find the correct solution; this billions of pounds has passed out of the system, away Government are providing money and are working with from passengers and away from possible benefits of local authorities. infrastructure investment. Instead, the benefits have Cycling has another important transport role to play, been in the form of big profits for many of the companies and I was pleased with the announcement in the autumn involved, not just train operating companies but those statement of a further £42 million investment in the with ancillary roles in the system, including some of the 417 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 418

[Mark Lazarowicz] the less reliable any prediction of future traffic and income can be. That leads to a risk of the tender providers of rolling stock, to mention just one example. becoming either a loss-maker, with the operator seeking This has not just been about money flowing out through to hand it back to the Government and to make them large profits; it has also been about operating inefficiencies pick up the tab, or one in which excessive profits are being brought into the system. Again, those have been reaped by the private operator. The system itself is at to the detriment of passengers and, in their own way, the heart of the problems with the railways and of the have led to fare increases. fact that money that could be used to benefit our passengers has unnecessarily flowed out of the rail Mr Andrew Turner: Can the hon. Gentleman explain system. why such inefficient companies win these contracts? I want to concentrate on the east coast main line, which is of particular relevance to my constituency and Mark Lazarowicz: Let us leave aside the fact that there to communities further south along the line. I urge the are not many operators in the field to bid. I am not Government to drop the ideology and to choose the saying that an individual operator is necessarily inefficient, option that works and that will keep prices down for the but that the system as a whole leads to inefficiencies as traveller. They should keep the east coast line, which is well as to profits being paid out to private companies successfully operated by Directly Operated Railways, in when they could be invested in the system. the public sector. I would rather that that was done on a I said that not all companies are inefficient. One permanent basis, but if the Government, for ideological example that showed the difficulties and negative effects reasons, are not prepared to do that, they should at least of privatisation at their highest was the disaster of give the operators a long-term contract rather than Railtrack, which was linked not just to private ownership leaving a sword of Damocles hanging over the company, and that company’s motivation in its operations but to the staff who work for it and the passengers and the fragmentation of the operators and Railtrack’s distance communities that rely on it. from the train operating companies. That example also The Government could also take the opportunity to shows how some of the damage caused by privatisation allow Directly Operated Railways’ east coast line to be a began to be turned around. It is not a perfect organisation, genuine public sector comparator for the rest of the but the publicly owned Network Rail has managed to network. If the Government will insist on reprivatisation repair some of the damage caused by fragmentation of for the west coast main line, they should at least ensure the system and we have seen a safer railway network that a public sector bid can be put on the table as a and better value for the taxpayer, for passengers and for comparator against which we can judge which provides other users of the rail network in the costs of maintaining best value for money for the taxpayer and the best the system. services for the passenger. That is the way forward. Let us start putting passengers first and make sure that they Jim Shannon: One of the greatest burdens for people get the benefit of investment rather than the companies, in employment is that 30% of their wages can go on which have taken too much out of the railways for too travel. People are travelling further, too, to get jobs and long since privatisation was introduced by a previous employment. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that Conservative Government. consideration has been given to those people who regularly use public transport, be it bus or rail, to get to work? 6.15 pm Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I am Mark Lazarowicz: Absolutely. That is an example of pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to the how increased rail fares damage people daily and effectively debate. This is an important issue; there is a serious worsen their standard of living. debate to be had about how we finance investment in The most recent example of the damage caused by the rail industry in future and about the cost of transport the privatised regime on the railways has been the fiasco today. Like hon. Friends who have spoken, I will have of the west coast main line franchise. That fiasco is no problem in voting against the Opposition motion; likely to land the Department for Transport—and therefore with depressing predictability, it is rather opportunistic, the taxpayer—with a bill for hundreds of millions of denies their record and contains few concrete proposals pounds, which could have been spent on improvements for the future. I asked the House of Commons Library to routes, stations and rolling stock. In contrast, we for figures on how much rail fares increased between have the experience of the east coast main line, to which 1997 and 2010. The answer was 56% for local and my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian regional operators and 98% for long-distance trains. Mearns)referred earlier. Bringing the franchise into the Rail fare increases did not begin in May 2010. public sector has been good business for the taxpayer My first main point is that although the debate and the directly operated company has brought money on rail fare increases is important, the reporting is not back into the public sector. In the last year, it has brought always helpful or accurate; the headline turn-up-and-go a premium of almost £200 million into the Department, “Anytime” rail fares are often cited and from that it is which has gone back into the public sector rather than extrapolated that Britain has the most expensive rail being siphoned off into a privately owned company. system in Europe. However, those tickets account for The problem is that there is an inherent difficulty in less than 20% of ticket sales. When we look at the the tendering system that operates on the railways under whole series of available fares, the position is not as the privatisation scheme introduced by a previous straightforward. Conservative Government. In order to bring about In preparing for this debate, I looked at the Virgin long-term investment and security, a Government will Trains website for a hypothetical journey from Manchester want to see long-term tenders, but the longer the tender to London. Yes, if I wanted to travel in peak time, turn 419 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 420 up and go, a single would cost £154—a large sum. debates are happening in Switzerland, Germany and However, a wide selection of other fares for the same other countries about how they cope with paying for the journey, as low as £12.50, was available on a wide range extra investment in the rail industry. of trains. The point is that we have to look at the whole I return to my point about whether we can incentivise mix of fares, not just the headline ones. passengers to travel outwith the super-peak period. We do not have the same debate in the airline industry. That is a line of questioning that I followed during the The difference between the cheapest and most expensive Transport Committee’s investigation when those in the rail air flights on the same route, say to New York, is industry were asked about what percentage of the daily enormous—from a couple of hundred pounds to £1,500 commuter market could move their journeys as opposed if someone wanted to turn up and go. to having to travel at the times they do. They were very reluctant to give a figure on that, so it is an area of Mark Lazarowicz: I am sure that it is possible to get a uncertainty, but my own view is that with improvements £12.50 fare from Manchester on Virgin Trains on some in technology and more flexible working patterns, that occasions. However, does the hon. Gentleman not accept share of the market will grow. In the last job I had that that £12.50 will be valid to London Euston, but if before I was elected here, I had some flexibility because he wants to go to Brighton, Dover or the south-west of I could plug into the company’s database system and do England with a different operator, he will not be able to a fair chunk of my work from home before having to get a through ticket at that rate? He will have to get two travel in for meetings. If more and more employers give separate tickets, which might cost more than a single that flexibility to staff, as is entirely possible, it is through ticket, because he will not be able to get a cheap perfectly feasible that rail operators will have an incentive through ticket. to discount tickets—the shoulder, as it were—instead of putting up the super-peak fare, which I accept would be Iain Stewart: I accept that there is an unnecessary very unwelcome. complexity in the rail ticketing system. The Transport Time prohibits me from going into some of the other Committee has looked at that issue and will continue to issues in depth. As the hon. Member for Liverpool, do so. If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will not Riverside (Mrs Ellman) said, I hope that we have a go too far down that path, as time is limited, but he has further opportunity to explore the issues raised in the made a valid point. Select Committee report. There is a need to get the costs The comparison with Europe is interesting. A very of running our railways down, as has been highlighted good website called “The Man in Seat Sixty-One” does in McNulty and many other studies. I am encouraged an independent comparison of European rail fares. Yes, by some of the innovations that are happening. I think when you look at the “walk up and go any time” fares, particularly of the alliance between Network Rail and the UK is substantially more expensive, but on other South West Trains. It is too early to give a full evaluation tickets, including buying the day before, Britain is either of that, but it is already showing signs of making it on a par with France, Germany or Italy or very often more efficient and cost-effective to maintain and improve considerably cheaper. the railway. There is the possibility of increasing revenue I mention that because when we talk about rail fares, from retail space at stations. These factors will all feed we need to differentiate between passengers compelled into generating revenue for the railways and maintaining to travel at a particular time of day and the vast the pressure on keeping fare increases down. majority who have some flexibility over when they I look forward to the Government’s conclusions from travel. The Opposition are right to highlight in the its consultation on ticketing. There is a real opportunity motion the issue of super-peak tickets, but they miss an to drive down the cost of rail tickets in this country. important point. I completely accept that some passengers However, we must look at the whole picture and recognise will not be able to change their time of travel, but others that we are pretty competitive compared with a lot of can. A super-peak ticket should not be designed to European countries. There will be pressures in future—that increase prices but to give rail operators the flexibility is a problem with the success of the railways to date—but to discount other peak-time travel and encourage passengers the picture is not all bleak, and I very much welcome to travel slightly later or earlier if possible. the steps that the Government are taking to improve the situation further. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Will my hon. Friend give way? 6.23 pm Iain Stewart: Certainly. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes Bob Stewart: I thank my hon. Friend and namesake. (Norman Baker), has claimed that rail passengers are Is it too utopian to hope that one day in future, rail getting a premium service and that rail fares are not fares, whatever they are charged at, will go up only by nearly as expensive as is being presented. I wonder who the rate of inflation, and that when we need to renovate he is trying to kid. My constituents who are crammed our railways Government will deal with that? like sardines into nearly 30-year-old trains do not believe that they are getting a premium service, and even McNulty Iain Stewart: I am not sure whether it is utopian. The acknowledged that fares overall are high relative to increased cost of investing in our railways has to be met other countries. by a mix of passenger contributions and taxpayer Research by Passenger Focus has shown that fares in contributions. At the moment, the balance is about Britain are the highest in Europe, more than four times right. The cost of travel by any means is going up, and higher than the cheapest country for medium-distance that takes into account the extra costs of energy. Similar journeys and nearly twice as high as the next most 421 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 422

[Julie Hilling] The increases in train and bus fares are hitting ordinary people very hard. Wages have not kept pace with inflation expensive. Granted, if someone can purchase their ticket and we know that people are already having to choose far in advance and specify which train they want, and between heating and eating. Public transport costs are advance-purchase tickets are available for that service, forcing many who can to travel to work in their cars and they may be able to find a fare that is cheaper or those who cannot to give up their jobs. The Government comparable with those of our European colleagues, but need to help local authorities to introduce quality contracts for most people travelling for business that option is and Oyster-like travel cards and to keep bus fares down. rarely available. Of course, if things happen and they It seems that running our buses or trains is a licence are unable to get on a specific train at a specific time, to print money.Even though the majority of rail franchises they cannot transfer their ticket to another train, so the receive large subsidies, they still take operating profits only way they can get the best price is to book in out of the industry. It is very much a case of something advance and accept zero flexibility and no refunds, for nothing, which is why it was so disappointing that, which is something that the vast majority of us are after the debacle of the west coast franchise, the unabletodo. Government, apparently on ideological grounds, would Witnesses to the Transport Committee suggested that not even consider directly operating the railway, as is the way to solve overcrowding on trains was to price the case with the east coast franchise, and putting most people off peak times. Indeed, the Government money back into the Treasury. appear to be considering super-peak tickets that would Finally, I want to challenge the notion that the previous be even more expensive than peak tickets. When the Labour Government did nothing on rail. We inherited a former Secretary of State for Transport, the right hon. railway that had been starved of investment for 18 years Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), and we needed to do some fundamental repairs, including gave evidence to the Committee, he answered a question rebuilding the west coast main line, which was already of mine by saying that the railways are already a rich electrified. In 2006-7, the Labour Government spent man’s toy. This Government seem to want to save some twice as much as the current Government are spending, services for the super rich and price ordinary people off and in each year since 2003 more money was spent on trains altogether. As Passenger Focus says, people should the railways under the Labour Government than this be incentivised to avoid travelling in the high peak, but Government are spending this year. not penalised even more when they cannot avoid it. Let us agree that public transport is also a public Our highly complicated fares system does not help service. It needs subsidy and, more importantly, it needs train passengers to find the cheapest means of travel. to be affordable for all, so that it is not just a rich man’s The proposal to close ticket offices just adds to the toy. difficulty, particularly for those who are unable to book tickets via the internet. It now costs more than £300 for 6.29 pm my constituents to travel to London during the peak. They could get a holiday in the sun for a week, with Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): The cost of rail spending money to spare, for the cost of getting to our and bus travel is extremely important to many of our capital city. Rail prices for long-distance travel have constituents. The motion has great appeal, but having become obscene and mean that we are putting cars back looked at the detail, it is quite empty and poses many on to roads. That surely cannot be right. questions but gives no solutions to the problems that it identifies. The vast majority of public transport journeys are made on buses. Since 2005, bus fares in metropolitan We must acknowledge the squeeze on the incomes of areas have increased by an average of twice the rate of railway passengers over the past five years or so. Incomes inflation. Deregulation has produced a system where have been stable at best for many people and salary operators have been given a licence to print money at no increases have been well below price inflation. We need risk to themselves. If an operator deems a service to be to recognise that fares have increased above inflation for unprofitable, it can simply stop it and remove it from the past 10 years. We must consider whether we can residents, unless the local authority steps in to save it. keep going back to those hard-pressed taxpayers year At a time when local authority budgets are being cut to after year with those increases. In the debate about how the core there is no money to support those services, we structure our fares, we must balance that need and we know that services are being cut, leaving people against the cost to all taxpayers of subsidising our unable to get to work and the elderly and people of railways, looking at how we can improve the efficiency limited means stranded in their homes. of our railways, and ensuring that we see proper investment in the rail network and substantive service improvements. Deregulation of the plethora of bus operators has Having read the motion, I am far from certain that it also made it incredibly difficult to introduce any sort of strikes that balance. travel card. London has had Oyster cards for nine years, There is no acknowledgement of the £16 billion of but my constituents are still waiting. Although Transport investment that the Government are putting into our for Greater Manchester is working hard to get our rail infrastructure. That includes projects such as the version of Oyster, it is finding it extremely difficult Nuneaton to Coventry rail upgrade and electrification, because of the various vested interests. which will bring a huge benefit to my constituents, I spoke yesterday about my constituent Leah, who is particularly to my many unemployed constituents who affected by the cuts to tax credits and other benefits. are seeking work and do not have their own transport. Leah works 16 hours a week to earn £101, but she has The motion does not take into account the huge rail to pay £18 a week for her bus fares. If she lived in electrification programme and the new train and rolling London, she would pay £11.20. stock programme, which will reduce the running costs 423 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 424 of our railways substantially in the long term, as my away from London by train, we have no air link, so a hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough vital connection to a city of 300,000 people is missing, (Andrew Jones) eloquently explained. and we have only two major road links. Yet the new fare The motion makes no mention of the improvements for an anytime single to or from London with First that there have been for passengers, particularly on the Great Western is £131.50, and a single between Liskeard west coast main line, which is now seeing an additional and Exeter, which is within the travel-to-work time that four Pendolino trains and 31 trains being lengthened. the Department for Work and Pensions thinks acceptable, When I get on the train at Nuneaton on a Monday is now £24. That is just for a one-way journey, which is morning, although I have to walk further along the prohibitive in an area of low wages. South West Trains platform to get to standard class, I know that when I get has announced an average fare rise of 5.8% on its there, there will at least be a seat for me because of the network. new carriages that have been inserted into the trains. I accept that running what is a Victorian rail network The motion also makes no mention of the £2.5 billion is not cheap, and Network Rail has been carrying out to £3.5 billion of efficiencies that were identified in the work, much of which was started under the previous McNulty report. I hope that when the shadow Minister Government, and driving cost savings through the system. sums up, he will elaborate on whether his party supports Work such as improving the signals at Reading will making the savings identified by that report. After all, eventually lead to time and cost savings as well as there is a cost to implementing the measures that his improvements in reliability. Can the Minister say, though, party is proposing. whether there is any scope for Network Rail and the I note that the Labour party again brings “flex” to Office of Rail Regulation to work beyond the plans for the fore in the motion. Perhaps the Labour spokesman the immediate control period and contemplate a degree will explain why, as with so many other policies, his of flexing in projects that are earmarked for control party pursued the “flex” policy until a few months period 5 or 6? Since the publication of the initial before the general election and then changed the policy industry plan, it seems to have been recognised that for only one year. He also needs to say why, if it is such there can be instances in which forward planning to the an awful policy, his Labour colleagues in Wales are still end of control period 10 could be acceptable, and I using it. The motion calls on the Government to ban would welcome his comments on that. operators from increasing fares above a strict limit. Travelling by rail is expensive, and I believe that most That is a laudable aim, but the motion is silent on what passengers are generally willing to accept an increase in that strict limit should be. their fares in return for a reliable, comfortable journey. That brings me on to the cost of bus travel. We must What they cannot accept is an increase when the flexibility again consider the cost of living and the squeeze on in fares potentially allows money to go into the pockets many people’s incomes. Many of the lowest-paid people of the private train companies and their shareholders. in my constituency rely on buses to get to and from Even the National Audit Office has commented that the work. The Opposition have been rather opportunistic in Government have not been able to demonstrate that the motion and seem to have added bus travel to it as an allowing companies the flexibility to charge an additional afterthought. The text about bus travel is even vaguer 5% will not lead to the profits going straight to the train than the first part of the motion. Again, the motion companies. does not acknowledge that fares increased by 35% between We know that the increases are hitting low and middle- 1995 and 2010, which included 13 years of Labour income families hardest, and we in the south-west simply Government. During that time, the average fare increases cannot accept them, particularly as we lose out in were well in excess of 2.5%—the same as over the past identifiable rail expenditure, as the answer to my recent two years. However, over the past couple of years, the parliamentary question showed. We get just £40 a head, increases have been below the rate of inflation. I say to compared with £119 elsewhere. the Labour Front Benchers that, during the period of We have a serious problem with the reliability and the Labour Government, the subsidy to bus operators resilience of the rail network. On two recent occasions I increased by 127%, while fares also rose by a huge was on the last train through the system before the line amount. That is not good value for money. was closed, the first time due to the flooding at Cowley As I have pointed out, Labour’s record on bus travel junction outside Exeter and the second time when the was not good. We know that if it were in government, sleeper train that I was on was caught in a landslide on fuel would be 13p a litre more expensive and bus the Friday before Christmas. It got through, but with companies would be adding that cost to passengers’ various diversions. There are serious issues to address, fares, compounding the increases that we have seen over and I am concerned by the fact that Cowley junction the past couple of years. I suspect that if that had been was not on the recent Network Rail list of projects. the case, we would not have seen the £4 million investment What we urgently need, and what Plymouth city council that Stagecoach has made in new buses in my constituency, and its leader Tudor Evans have been pushing for, is a which I welcomed several weeks ago. rail resilience taskforce. I would be interested to hear We must take into account the pressures faced by all the Minister’s views on that proposal. our constituents and limit fare increases, but we must The problems were threefold during the recent flooding. also acknowledge the taxpayer contribution and ensure First, when the lines went down, communications were that our public transport is fit and efficient for the future. poor, with websites not being updated. To be fair to First, it now has a pretty good system in place, but I 6.35 pm know from personal experience just how much conflicting Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): This information came out. Secondly, contingency plans were is an incredibly important issue for the people of Plymouth not in place. Buses were not immediately available, and the far south-west. We are well over three hours despite the forewarnings of bad weather. The bus operators 425 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 426

[Alison Seabeck] debate, bus fares are up twice the rate of inflation, services are disappearing and a prime ministerial promise could not communicate with the train companies, so of capping rail fares at 1% above inflation has been there is more to be done. However, I want to put on broken. Fares are increasing not by 4.3%—1% above record my gratitude and that of others to the people inflation—but by 9.2%, and even worse, Government who worked in horrendously difficult conditions, including documents propose super peak tickets that will cost the emergency services. even more. There are no problems with party lines on Thirdly, we could do better on infrastructure this issue. People are either with the vested interests—the management. Some £25 million has been spent on train operating companies and the Government—or Dawlish, yet the signalling cabinets at Cowley and with hard-pressed commuters, the Transport Committee Taunton are still not properly protected. I do not need and the Opposition motion on the order paper. I will to tell the Minister that there are often no drainage return to those issues shortly. ditches in low-lying areas in the Somerset levels and no The Secretary of State generously joined the shadow alternative routes that can be used if the main line to the Secretary of State’s tribute to my hon. Friend the Member far west goes down. With no air link, when the M5 is for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), and—quite closed due to accidents we are effectively cut off. correctly—that was well greeted across the House. The Fare hikes at a time of low wage growth are hitting Secretary of State has had difficult times during his people hard. We understand fare increases if we see short tenure. He is regarded as a honourable man but he improvements and investment, but the Government has been picking up the pieces of the west coast main have no strategic direction for rail in the south-west, line franchise fiasco and the Davies commission signalled and the likelihood of more heavy rain and more problems a Government U-turn—well, certainly a Conservative frankly worries the hell out of people and businesses in U-turn—on aviation policy in 2015. My hon. Friend particular. If the strategic group is set up, as suggested the Member for Garston and Halewood is not the only by Councillor Evans, I hope that the Government will Member critical of the delay in the announcement by look at its proposals and at the cross-benefit analysis of the Davies commission, and she is joined by Mayor putting such improvements in place, at the same time as Boris Johnson and Lord Heseltine. In my view, however, improving our economy, as it will be able to run for 365 the biggest mistake— days a year. Mr McLoughlin rose— What have we in the south-west got to do to gain recognition for our needs, particularly in Whitehall which —I venture to say—does not actually understand Jim Fitzpatrick: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will the south-west? When Ministers and officials liken a forgive me; he knows that time is very limited but I do city the size of Plymouth to Hastings, we know we have not wish to be discourteous. I was about to pay him a a problem. We cannot escape the fact that we have a compliment in saying that in my view, one of the biggest serious problem that will not be resolved by super peak mistakes made by one of his predecessors, the right tickets and more money going to rail company shareholders. hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge My hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood (Mr Hammond), was scrapping road safety targets that (Maria Eagle) has set out a clear case for a different and had bipartisan support across the House for 30 years fairer approach, and I ask the Secretary of State to and massively reduced deaths and serious injuries on respond to my specific proposals for the south-west. our roads. Indeed, I commend the Secretary of State because at least he has had the decency to bring in forecasts that acknowledge we need to measure such 6.40 pm things and set an ambition to reduce the numbers of Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Happy people killed and seriously injured on the roads. new year, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am grateful to my We have heard a number of thoughtful contributions. hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood My hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) (Maria Eagle) for inviting me to deliver the winding-up made relevant points about the east coast main line and speech for the Opposition. That was especially generous local connections, as well as sharing disturbing data on given yesterday’s front page on the “ConservativeHome” staffing conditions. The hon. Member for Harrogate website and a lead article written by someone appropriately and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), a former Department called Harry Phibbs—it was not spelled Fibs, although for Transport Parliamentary Private Secretary, mounted I am not sure what kind of future he thinks he has in a sterling defence of the coalition, which was a good politics. Mr Phibbs writes about a dozen politicians way to sweeten his special local pleading, which I am who he says should defect to the Conservatives, and he sure went down well. names me along with some other distinguished colleagues, The distinguished Chair of the Transport Committee including the former Transport Secretary, Lord Adonis, covered the recommendation from the new Committee and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South report, to which I shall refer in a moment. The hon. (Mr Harris). I am grateful that the shadow Secretary of Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) reminded us State trusts me with this winding-up speech in the face how the Lib Dems are the honest brokers in the coalition. of such provocation. He even got the Scottish National party on side, albeit I understand Mr Phibbs’s confusion, because in the briefly. The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South 21st century, party lines can blur on some issues, of (Iain Stewart) used his characteristic gentle aggressiveness which equal marriage and Europe are good examples. and Transport Committee experience to criticise Labour’s On transport, however, and the motion before the House, record, and sought to use European comparisons to nothing could be clearer: as my hon. Friend the Member justify UK prices. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton for Garston and Halewood laid out when opening the West (Julie Hilling) raised the question of overcrowding 427 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 428 on her local trains, as well as high ticketing costs and The Prime Minister promised capped fares, but it has local buses, and the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) not happened, and the Under-Secretary of State for majored on the question of costs. My hon. Friend the Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) held out the prospect of the end of the era of above-inflation raised a number of local issues as well as discussing fare increases, but when asked by the BBC when that major infrastructure items. would happen, he could not answer. The Government To return to the substance of the motion, according are out of touch on rail. My hon. Friend the Member to the Department for Transport’s figures—the annual for Garston and Halewood quoted the right hon. Member bus usage statistics for England—there was an increase for Runnymede and Weybridge, who said that rail is a in bus fares of 6.5%, which means fares have gone up “rich man’s toy”. The Under-Secretary of State—long- by, on average, twice the rate of inflation. They have serving in the Government; long-suffering on the Opposition gone up by 5.4% in London. As we have heard, research Benches—tried to claim over the new year that rail fares has shown that one in five council-supported bus routes were were cut or reduced last year, and that 41% of local “not nearly as expensive as” authorities have had to axe services. That is not a good they were “being presented”, and that passengers were record on buses. paying for a “premium service”. If by “premium service” As we have heard, on rail fares, the Prime Minister he means paying more, getting less and standing for promised to peg increases at 1% above inflation. That is longer, I agree. Just this week, the rail Minister was another broken promise to add to the 70 missed targets bullied into using rail by the media, which was a sad headlined in The Daily Telegraph today—although perhaps passage. it is one of the 70. The target was not only just missed; Labour would put passengers first by banning train fare increases of up to 9.2% have been registered. And it companies from increasing fares above a cap set by gets worse: the Transport Committee states in its “Rail Ministers. Government Members have the opportunity 2020” report: to stand up for their rail and bus commuters by supporting “We recommend that the Government rule out forms of demand our motion tonight in the Lobby. I strongly urge them management which would lead to even higher fares for commuters to do so and I commend the motion to the House. on peak times”. Why does it make that recommendation? It does so because of a quote from the Government’s rail fares 6.50 pm and ticketing review from last year. The scriptwriters The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport from “Yes, Minister” could not have improved on this (Norman Baker): I am grateful for the opportunity to language, and hon. Members will need to concentrate respond to the House on the crucial issue of public on the words: transport fares. I thank all those who contributed to “To provide a stronger incentive for behavioural change and today’s debate, and in the time remaining I will try to more even usage of peak capacity among existing passengers, a refer to as many of the issues raised as possible. wider ‘menu’ of fares could…also include a ‘high peak’ fare Let me say first that we fully understand and share priced higher than the current Anytime day fare, a season ticket priced higher than the current season ticket”, concerns about the impact of public transport fares on the cost of living. That is why we have committed to which means higher prices on routes. Perhaps the Minister retain free concessionary bus travel for older and disabled will comment on that, because the Secretary of State people. By the way, I applaud bus operators for offering did not refer to it, even though my hon. Friend the free travel to jobseekers during this month to help them Member for Garston and Halewood raised the super-peak back into work. That is why we protected bus subsidy ticket on a number of occasions. from the worst of the cuts and provided significant new Labour’s position is a total contrast. The noble Lord funding streams to promote bus travel, and that is why Adonis set out his view last year of the policy he we have chosen to keep the average cost of fare rises on followed as Secretary of State in 2010. He said: the railway to 1% above inflation, scrapping the planned RPI plus 3% that would have otherwise come into effect “Prior to 2010, train companies had the right to increase individual fares by up to five per cent above the…RPI+1 per cent this month. level. This was a legacy of the privatisation settlement. I scrapped Of course, we have inherited a position from the this flexibility because I believed it was deeply unfair”. previous Labour Government who from 2004 onwards Of his successor as Transport Secretary, the right hon. adopted a policy of relentless, real-terms year-on-year Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, Lord Adonis increases of 1% above inflation, a policy to which I has said: understand the Labour party is still indefinitely committed. I note that from 1997 to 2010, rail fares rose by 66% “It was my firm intention to continue the policy for subsequent under the previous Government. This Government, on years, and I was mystified when…my successor…reinstated the fares flexibility. The only people who supported this change were the other hand, are determined to end the era of above- the train companies. It is the job of government to be on the side inflation rises as soon as we can, and I will come on to of the travelling public. Labour took this seriously, which is why that in a moment. we scrapped the fares flexibility. By contrast, the present government Unlike the Labour party, which presided over a bloated appears just to be on the side of the train companies.” and inefficient Network Rail and did nothing about it, Government Members asked why the policy was introduced we are taking forward steps with the industry, including only in 2010. That is a legitimate question, but a better a reinvigorated Network Rail, to reduce its costs by up one would be: why has it not been repeated since 2010? to 30%. That is progressing well and we will release We have had three years of coalition fares increases, but significant funds to return to the taxpayer and to the the policy has not been back. fare payer. 429 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 430

Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) fares have been a major contributor to the massive (Con): Does my hon. Friend recognise that in the south-west growth in the number of people using our railways in we have a very big problem with flooding? We need to recent years. It is a real success story, and one of the have the A303 dualled and the A38 sorted out. We need reasons why we have more people on the railway now more trains getting into Plymouth early, and we need to than at any time since 1929. That is not the picture the ensure that we have more three-hour train journeys. Opposition wish to portray, but it is the truth nevertheless. My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes Norman Baker: I was in the south-west yesterday, in South (Iain Stewart) rightly referred to the need for a Exeter and Newton Abbott, and I saw fully the problems balanced comparison between different fares. Independent of the Somerset levels and Cowley bridge in particular. analysis by the website he referred to, The Man in Seat I am taking that specific matter up with Network Rail. Sixty-One, has shown that only 15%, or thereabouts, of As for the other matters, my hon. Friend has put his the tickets available in the UK are among the highest-priced points firmly on the record, as I am sure he intended. in Europe. The other 85% are equal to, if not cheaper Detractors—I am afraid I include those on the than, their comparators in other European countries. Opposition Front Bench—have sought to find the biggest On the fares and ticketing review, we are determined fare rise and portray it as representative of the whole to ensure that passenger interests are catered for. We story, which of course is simply misleading. Why they know that the picture can be confusing, even to the wish to frighten people off the railway, I am not entirely initiated, so we are considering how to make fares and clear. Fares are not as expensive as some wish to present. ticketing more modern, more transparent, more flexible Passengers who look beyond the headline quotes will and more user friendly. In response to the Chairman of see the bigger picture on train fares. Under the rules the Transport Committee, I say that we are doing a that permit flexibility within fares baskets—the Opposition great deal on smart ticketing, which is integral to the apparently now dislike them, but they were very happy fares and ticketing review, and transparency is a key with them when they introduced them and carried them element of that review. By driving innovation and exploiting through for a number of years—for every fare that the opportunities from new technologies, we can make increases by more than the average, other fares must the railway easier to use, tackle crowding and make the increase by less than the average, remain static or fall. best possible use of the existing network. The hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) has made a big play about the 5% available to On buses, if we believed what the Opposition said, we train companies. I did not hear her condemn the fact would think we were approaching the end of civilisation, that Labour introduced that. I did not hear her condemn that there were no buses left on the roads, that it had that fact that it was introduced on the very eve of the turned into “Mad Max 3”. Indeed, I get the impression 2010 general election, with a legal proviso saying that it that Labour would grimly welcome that, with an “I told should be reversed on 1 January 2011. I did not hear her you so” satisfaction, were it to materialise. condemn the Labour-run Welsh Government, where On 28 February, the hon. Member for Nottingham flex continues to operate—or is it all right in Wales and South (Lilian Greenwood) warned of a Beeching-style not in England? Nor did I hear her refer in her opening cull of our bus network. It is true that in some areas remarks to the fares that have risen below inflation, or local authorities have cut services probably unnecessarily. even come down. For example, season tickets between Campaign for Better Transport refers to Nottingham Shenfield and London, and between Gatwick and Croydon, city council, which is Labour-run, Stoke-on-Trent city have come down. Why does she want the passengers council, Darlington borough council, Leicester city council buying those season tickets to pay more under her and Halton borough council, so perhaps she should put arrangements than they are paying under our arrangements? her own house in order before she starts attacking the Why does she want commuters between Ormskirk and Government. Blackpool, who have seen their fares come down by 9%, to pay more? This is opportunism with a capital O that Here is the good news, which we would not get from we are hearing from the Opposition. Of course, they are the Opposition either: passenger journeys in 2012, measured not interested in the fares that have come down. They on the third quarter, are up 0.6% from the same quarter are not interested in helping passengers; they are interested the year before. [Interruption.] Members are shouting in misrepresenting the position to make political points. about London. Even with London taken out, passenger [Interruption.] Passengers welcome the fact that there journeys are down just 0.8% on last year. Is that a are many cheap deals available on the railway that they Beeching-style cut? Total bus mileage is only down can take advantage of. 0.8% as well. Let me say this. Of course, there are some higher We are seeing that good innovation can work wonders. fares and there are particular higher fares paid by In Sheffield, for example, a wonderful partnership has commuters. Everyone on the Government Benches been established by the South Yorkshire Passenger recognises that, which is why we are busy looking at the Transport Executive, and the price of multi-operated fares and ticketing review and why we have sought to tickets has been reduced by 14% to stimulate passenger ensure we get better value from the railways to enable growth further. In Sheffield, First has reduced its commercial money to be returned to the taxpayer and the fare fares by almost 40%. Weekly and daily tickets now cost payer. It is also the case, however, that those who are £11 and £3.40 respectively, compared to the previous able to travel outside the busiest periods can benefit prices of £18.50 and £4.60. FirstGroup has seen passenger from some of the cheapest fares in Europe. For example, growth higher than 20% across the whole of Sheffield, advance fares are available from London to Birmingham, which equates to more than 50,000 additional First Bus Manchester or Leeds for £6, or from London to Glasgow journeys. We want to see bus companies working with in the middle of the day for less than £30. Cheap advance local authorities. It is driving up passenger numbers, 431 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 432 where they make the effort, but where they are slashing Gilmore, Sheila Mearns, Ian and burning, as they are in some local authorities, of Glass, Pat Miliband, rh David course the consequences are different. Glindon, Mrs Mary Miliband, rh Edward Godsiff, Mr Roger Miller, Andrew The hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough Goggins, rh Paul Mitchell, Austin (Andrew Jones) quite rightly referred to electrification Goodman, Helen Moon, Mrs Madeleine taking costs out of the railway. That is a key purpose in Greatrex, Tom Morden, Jessica what we are doing, as well reducing carbon emissions. I Green, Kate Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) am very proud to be part of a Government which is Greenwood, Lilian Morris, Grahame M. electrifying 850 miles of track—one in nine miles of the Griffith, Nia (Easington) network being electrified, compared with the nine miles Gwynne, Andrew Munn, Meg electrified by the previous Government in 13 years. I Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Paul have heard no apology for that failure to invest in the Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Ian future. Hanson, rh Mr David Nandy, Lisa Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nash, Pamela Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab) claimed to Harris, Mr Tom O’Donnell, Fiona Havard, Mr Dai Osborne, Sandra move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Healey, rh John Owen, Albert Question put forthwith, That the Question be now Hendrick, Mark Pearce, Teresa put. Hepburn, Mr Stephen Perkins, Toby Question agreed to. Hillier, Meg Phillipson, Bridget Hilling, Julie Powell, Lucy Main Question accordingly put. Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Raynsford, rh Mr Nick The House divided: Ayes 237, Noes 311. Hoey, Kate Reed, Mr Jamie Hood, Mr Jim Reeves, Rachel Division No. 132] [6.59 pm Hopkins, Kelvin Reynolds, Emma Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Jonathan AYES Hunt, Tristram Riordan, Mrs Linda Abbott, Ms Diane Cooper, rh Yvette Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, John Abrahams, Debbie Corbyn, Jeremy Jackson, Glenda Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Crausby, Mr David Jamieson, Cathy Rotheram, Steve Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Creagh, Mary Jarvis, Dan Roy, Mr Frank Alexander, Heidi Creasy, Stella Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Lindsay Ali, Rushanara Cruddas, Jon Johnson, Diana Ruane, Chris Allen, Mr Graham Cunningham, Alex Jones, Graham Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Austin, Ian Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Bailey, Mr Adrian Cunningham, Sir Tony Jones, Mr Kevan Sawford, Andy Bain, Mr William Curran, Margaret Jones, Susan Elan Seabeck, Alison Balls, rh Ed Dakin, Nic Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shannon, Jim Banks, Gordon Danczuk, Simon Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra Barron, rh Mr Kevin David, Wayne Kendall, Liz Sheerman, Mr Barry Bayley, Hugh Davidson, Mr Ian Khan, rh Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Beckett, rh Dame Margaret Davies, Geraint Lammy, rh Mr David Shuker, Gavin Begg, Dame Anne De Piero, Gloria Lavery, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Benn, rh Hilary Denham, rh Mr John Lazarowicz, Mark Slaughter, Mr Andy Benton, Mr Joe Dobbin, Jim Leslie, Chris Smith, rh Mr Andrew Berger, Luciana Dobson, rh Frank Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Angela Betts, Mr Clive Docherty, Thomas Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Nick Blackman-Woods, Roberta Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Owen Blears, rh Hazel Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Caroline Spellar, rh Mr John Blenkinsop, Tom Doughty, Stephen Lucas, Ian Stringer, Graham Blomfield, Paul Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona Stuart, Ms Gisela Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Brennan, Kevin Dromey, Jack Malhotra, Seema Tami, Mark Brown, Lyn Dugher, Michael Mann, John Thomas, Mr Gareth Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon Thornberry, Emily Bryant, Chris Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Timms, rh Stephen Buck, Ms Karen Eagle, Maria McCann, Mr Michael Trickett, Jon Burden, Richard Efford, Clive McCarthy, Kerry Turner, Karl Burnham, rh Andy Elliott, Julie McClymont, Gregg Twigg, Derek Byrne, rh Mr Liam Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonagh, Siobhain Twigg, Stephen Campbell, Mr Alan Engel, Natascha McDonald, Andy Umunna, Mr Chuka Campbell, Mr Ronnie Esterson, Bill McDonnell, John Vaz, rh Keith Caton, Martin Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Vaz, Valerie Champion, Sarah Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Alison Walley, Joan Chapman, Jenny Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Jim Watson, Mr Tom Clark, Katy Flello, Robert McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Watts, Mr Dave Clarke, rh Mr Tom Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Whitehead, Dr Alan Clwyd, rh Ann Flynn, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Williams, Hywel Coaker, Vernon Francis, Dr Hywel McKinnell, Catherine Williamson, Chris Connarty, Michael Gapes, Mike Meacher, rh Mr Michael Wilson, Phil Cooper, Rosie Gardiner, Barry Meale, Sir Alan Winnick, Mr David 433 Rising Cost of Transport9 JANUARY 2013 Rising Cost of Transport 434

Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Wright, Mr Iain Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, David Wood, Mike Hollingbery, George Morris, James Woodcock, John Tellers for the Ayes: Hollobone, Mr Philip Mosley, Stephen Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Yvonne Fovargue and Holloway, Mr Adam Mowat, David Wright, David Jonathan Ashworth Hopkins, Kris Mulholland, Greg Horwood, Martin Mundell, rh David NOES Howarth, Sir Gerald Munt, Tessa Howell, John Murray, Sheryll Adams, Nigel Davies, Philip Hughes, rh Simon Murrison, Dr Andrew Afriyie, Adam Dinenage, Caroline Huhne, rh Chris Neill, Robert Aldous, Peter Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Newmark, Mr Brooks Amess, Mr David Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huppert, Dr Julian Newton, Sarah Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Norman, Jesse Bacon, Mr Richard Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Nuttall, Mr David Baker, Norman Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid O’Brien, Mr Stephen Baldry, Sir Tony Duddridge, James Jenkin, Mr Bernard Offord, Dr Matthew Baldwin, Harriett Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Gareth Ollerenshaw, Eric Barclay, Stephen Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Joseph Opperman, Guy Barker, rh Gregory Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Osborne, rh Mr George Baron, Mr John Ellison, Jane Jones, rh Mr David Ottaway, Richard Barwell, Gavin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr Marcus Paice, rh Sir James Bebb, Guto Elphicke, Charlie Kawczynski, Daniel Parish, Neil Beith, rh Sir Alan Eustice, George Kelly, Chris Patel, Priti Bellingham, Mr Henry Evans, Graham Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pawsey, Mark Benyon, Richard Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Penrose, John Beresford, Sir Paul Evennett, Mr David Knight, rh Mr Greg Perry, Claire Berry, Jake Fabricant, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Phillips, Stephen Bingham, Andrew Fallon, rh Michael Lamb, Norman Pickles, rh Mr Eric Birtwistle, Gordon Farron, Tim Lancaster, Mark Pincher, Christopher Blackman, Bob Field, Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Blackwood, Nicola Foster, rh Mr Don Latham, Pauline Prisk, Mr Mark Blunt, Mr Crispin Francois, rh Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Pritchard, Mark Boles, Nick Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Pugh, John Bone, Mr Peter Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Raab, Mr Dominic Bottomley, Sir Peter Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Randall, rh Mr John Bradley, Karen Gale, Sir Roger Leech, Mr John Reckless, Mark Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Reevell, Simon Brake, rh Tom Gauke, Mr David Leigh, Mr Edward Reid, Mr Alan Bray, Angie George, Andrew Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brazier, Mr Julian Gibb, Mr Nick Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, rh Hugh Bridgen, Andrew Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Brandon Robertson, Mr Laurence Brine, Steve Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lewis, Dr Julian Rogerson, Dan Brokenshire, James Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rosindell, Andrew Brooke, Annette Goldsmith, Zac Lidington, rh Mr David Rudd, Amber Browne, Mr Jeremy Goodwill, Mr Robert Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Sir Bob Bruce, Fiona Gove, rh Michael Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack Sanders, Mr Adrian Buckland, Mr Robert Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Jonathan Scott, Mr Lee Burley, Mr Aidan Grayling, rh Chris Loughton, Tim Selous, Andrew Burns, Conor Green, rh Damian Luff, Peter Shapps, rh Grant Burns, rh Mr Simon Greening, rh Justine Lumley, Karen Sharma, Alok Burrowes, Mr David Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Macleod, Mary Shelbrooke, Alec Burstow, rh Paul Griffiths, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne Shepherd, Sir Richard Byles, Dan Gyimah, Mr Sam Maude, rh Mr Francis Simmonds, Mark Cable, rh Vince Hague, rh Mr William Maynard, Paul Simpson, Mr Keith Cairns, Alun Halfon, Robert McCartney, Jason Skidmore, Chris Carswell, Mr Douglas Hames, Duncan McCartney, Karl Smith, Miss Chloe Cash, Mr William Hammond, Stephen McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Henry Chishti, Rehman Hancock, Matthew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Julian Chope, Mr Christopher Hands, Greg McPartland, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Clappison, Mr James Harper, Mr Mark McVey, Esther Soames, rh Nicholas Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harris, Rebecca Menzies, Mark Soubry, Anna Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hart, Simon Mercer, Patrick Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Collins, Damian Harvey, Sir Nick Metcalfe, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark Colvile, Oliver Hayes, Mr John Miller, rh Maria Stanley, rh Sir John Crabb, Stephen Heald, Oliver Mills, Nigel Stephenson, Andrew Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David Milton, Anne Stevenson, John Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Bob Davey, rh Mr Edward Hemming, John Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Iain Davies, David T. C. Hendry, Charles Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Rory (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Morgan, Nicky Streeter, Mr Gary Davies, Glyn Hinds, Damian Morris, Anne Marie Stride, Mel 435 Rising Cost of Transport 9 JANUARY 2013 436

Stuart, Mr Graham Walter, Mr Robert Speed Limits (Rural Lincolnshire) Stunell, rh Andrew Watkinson, Dame Angela Sturdy, Julian Weatherley, Mike Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Webb, Steve do now adjourn.—(Karen Bradley.) Swinson, Jo Wharton, James Swire, rh Mr Hugo Wheeler, Heather 7.13 pm Tapsell, rh Sir Peter White, Chris Teather, Sarah Whittingdale, Mr John Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): Thurso, John Wiggin, Bill It is a great honour and a privilege to have tonight’s Timpson, Mr Edward Williams, Mr Mark Adjournment debate and to raise an issue that I know is Tomlinson, Justin Williams, Roger of great importance to many of my constituents—the Tredinnick, David Williams, Stephen issue of speed limits in rural Lincolnshire. The existence— Truss, Elizabeth Williamson, Gavin [Interruption.] Turner, Mr Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Tyrie, Mr Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Uppal, Paul Wright, Simon Vaizey, Mr Edward Those Members who are leaving the Chamber should Young, rh Sir George Vara, Mr Shailesh do so quickly and quietly so that we can hear the Zahawi, Nadhim Vickers, Martin Adjournment debate. Walker, Mr Charles Tellers for the Noes: Walker, Mr Robin Mark Hunter and Stephen Phillips: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Wallace, Mr Ben Mr Robert Syms The existence of speed limits on our roads does a huge amount to reduce road deaths and accidents, and Question accordingly negatived. appropriate speed limits, particularly in residential areas, offer clear benefits in safety. As my hon. Friend the Business without Debate Minister will know, a vehicle travelling at 20 mph at the onset of an incident will stop in time to avoid a child who is running out three car-lengths in front, while the EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS same vehicle travelling at 25 mph—only 5 mph faster—will Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing still be travelling at 18 mph at the three-car-lengths Order No. 119(11)), marker. A pedestrian hit by a car travelling at 18 mph is likely to suffer at least serious injury, and at that speed EUROPEAN MARITIME AND FISHERIES FUND the effect on a child is roughly the same as the effect of That this House takes note of European Union Document falling backwards out of a first-floor window. A pedestrian No. 17870/11 and Addenda 1 and 2, a draft Regulation on the who is struck at 20 mph has a 97% chance of survival; at European Maritime and Fisheries Fund repealing Council Regulation 30 mph the figure is 80%; and at 35 mph it falls to 50%. (EC) No. 1198/2006, Council Regulation (EC) No. 861/2006 and It is plainly not appropriate for low speed limits to Council Regulation No. XXX/2011 on integrated maritime policy; operate on every road, even in residential areas, but, as and supports the Government’s view that the terms so far agreed those in communities throughout my constituency tell under the partial general approach would support delivery of the me repeatedly, the setting and enforcement of proper ambitious Common Fisheries Policy reform package which was the subject of a separate partial general approach in June 2012.— limits in areas where pedestrians are likely to be found (Karen Bradley.) are critical to survivability rates. Question agreed to. The Government’s responsibility in all this is to set national default speed limits for different types of roads, and the present policy recognises—as it should—that residential areas need lower limits. However, local authorities can set different speed limits on roads where local needs and considerations suggest that the default limit is not appropriate. Many people living in a number of villages in my constituency say that their local speed limits are too high, and that Lincolnshire county council will not listen to their representations and lower them. The current Government guidelines clearly state that although 30 mph is the standard speed limit for urban areas, a 40 mph limit may be used where appropriate. Roads considered suitable for 40 mph limits are those that are regarded as higher-quality suburban roads, or roads on the outskirts of urban areas where there is little development. Roads considered suitable for 40 mph limits should be wider than a standard urban street, and should have parking and waiting restrictions in operation and buildings set back from the road. There should be enough space for people on bikes, on horses and on foot to be segregated from the traffic, and there should be adequate crossing places. Those guidelines, however, are not always followed. For instance, they do not apply, or have not applied, in the village of Fulbeck in my constituency. Fulbeck is 437 Speed Limits (Rural Lincolnshire)9 JANUARY 2013 Speed Limits (Rural Lincolnshire) 438

[Stephen Phillips] of drivers both travelling on the main road and trying to turn out on to it. Slow and large farm vehicles are of bisected by a section of A road with a 40 mph limit, course a particular hazard in that area. which is inappropriate. The village amenities are on both sides of the road. There is, for example, a popular In both those cases, there has been no reduction in children’s playground on one side, while the majority of speed limits in accordance with the Government’s guidelines, dwellings are on the other. Children and elderly people despite strong urging from me and the communities struggle to cross what is a very busy road with blind affected. In those cases, as in that of Fulbeck, I would bends, which is used by many heavy goods vehicles. like the Minister to undertake to come to the communities Even fit adult villagers feel that they are taking their concerned and to look at the situation with me and do lives in their hands when they try to cross the road, and all he can to persuade the county council to follow the motorists are too often misled in a manner that leads to guidance his Department has given. traffic incidents. Only this week, we saw a car leave the I have already mentioned the fact—and it is a fact—that road. It is plain to all that the existing 40 mph limit in Government guidelines are clear that a village should Fulbeck is simply too high, but my efforts—and those have a 30 mph speed limit. The present policy in of villagers—to have it reduced to 30 mph have been to Lincolnshire simply does not allow for that, and instead no avail, despite Government guidance that that should counter-intuitively insists that a mean speed calculation be the standard speed limit in all villages. be used to set the limit. In effect, speed limits are endorsing what are often dangerous speeds through Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I congratulate my residential village areas. hon. and learned Friend on securing a debate that is very important to Lincolnshire. As a result of my In the case of West Willoughby a mean speed calculation campaign in the Allendale road in Hexham, we reduced meant a reduction from the national speed limit to the speed limit outside a school to 20 mph. Is that not 50 mph, but anyone who has been through the village exactly the sort of campaign that the Government will know that that is still too fast for sight stopping should be encouraging? Should not Government guidance distances on the blind bend. Current policy in Lincolnshire strongly recommend the lowering of speed limits in the does not allow that to be taken into account, however. vicinity of primary schools in particular? Indeed, so defective is the policy in its present formulation that it removes the possibility of any discretionary decisions by highways officers, meaning that obvious Stephen Phillips: My hon. Friend has made an important dangers cannot be considered when they clearly should and valuable point. I am making general points about be. speed limits in villages, but there is a very good case for them to be even lower near schools. In a number of The mean speed method of establishing limits is parts of my constituency, there are 20 mph advisory ridiculous. In the course of calculating the mean speed, speed limits. I think that those should be encouraged, a recording of vehicle speeds is taken for a week, but and I hope the Minister will confirm that they will be. that includes the speeds of drivers breaking the limit. The Government’s present guidelines also state that Figures provided by Lincolnshire county council from in exceptional circumstances—which must, by definition, one recording in West Willoughby gave an average of be rare—a 50 mph limit may be used on higher-quality 800 vehicles a day exceeding the national speed limit of roads where there is little or no roadside development. 60 mph, with 70 of them exceeding 70 mph. The mean Among the roads considered most suitable for that limit speed is therefore pushed up by those breaking the law, are primary distributors with segregated junctions and and if that is used to set speed limits, that is clearly pedestrian facilities. They would usually be dual carriageway potty. If Government guidelines are to suggest the use roads or bypasses that have become partially built up. of mean speeds for calculating speed limits, the methodology Again, however—at least in Lincolnshire—many of my should be associated with rural open roads alone, not constituents feel that the guidelines are not being followed, those passing through villages. I hope the Minister will and that there are 50 mph speed limits in residential tell me that he will make that clear to the county areas where plainly they should not be. council. One section of the B1188, which runs through Branston, In October 2011, I joined local campaigners from is a good example. It carries in excess of 12,000 vehicles Fulbeck and West Willoughby in meeting my hon. per day, more than many of the A roads that serve Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), Lincoln. None the less, there is a 50 mph limit, despite who was then the responsible Minister in the Department the existence of a double bend with limited visibility for Transport. He agreed with us that no effective and access to farmyards and residential properties on it. response has been made to local concerns for years and The combined cycle and pedestrian path on this stretch that action was needed. What is needed now is for the is narrow and in poor condition, and, in the vicinity of current Minister to get involved directly. I hope he will the double bend, it is adjacent to the carriageway, with be able to tell me this evening that that is what he no kerb or verge to protect users. Indeed, it is in such proposes to do. poor condition that many cyclists prefer to use the road, I accept that there are particular circumstances associated further increasing the risk of collision. with the county in which I make my home, namely the A 50 mph limit is also in place through West Willoughby, lack of trunk roads and the high number of small a small village on a main A road in my constituency, villages scattered in ribbon developments. That necessarily where the road has a blind bend with private and farm means that efficiency will dictate higher speed limits on entrances, a bus stop in each direction, and a post box open roads than might be the case in urban settings, but on one side only. There is also a blind summit just to suggest that it should dictate the same in village outside the village, which considerably restricts the view situations is to run the risk that the safety of my 439 Speed Limits (Rural Lincolnshire)9 JANUARY 2013 Speed Limits (Rural Lincolnshire) 440 constituents will be trumped by the need to keep traffic with guidance on setting local speed limits, including 20 moving between major population centres, which I could mph speed limits, and the conditions in which they not accept. should be set, in order to ensure that they are set I know that the Government are undertaking a general appropriately and consistently, while allowing the flexibility review of their guidelines to local authorities on local to deal with local needs and conditions. It is also worth speed limits. I therefore want the Minister to tell me that remembering that speed limits are only one part of he will listen to the points made by me and my constituents, rural safety management; the nature and layout of the and that if common sense based on guidance issued by road, and the mix of traffic also need to be considered. his Department is ignored, as is too often the case at To achieve a change in motorists’behaviour and compliance present, he will act to make the guidance on village with the local limits, supporting physical measures are speed limits binding. Only then will I feel that I have often required, as is local publicity. done what I can to ensure the safety on Lincolnshire’s On enforcement, it is of course for the police and roads of those whom I was sent to this House to local authorities to decide whether to use speed cameras, represent. and how they wish to operate them. However, the Government do not believe that cameras should be used as the default solution in reducing accidents, and 7.24 pm nor should they be used as a way of raising revenue. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Local organisations and local authorities should seek (Stephen Hammond): I thank my hon. and learned ways other than just cameras to improve safety on their Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham roads. (Stephen Phillips) for securing an important debate on As we explained in our strategic framework for road speed limits, not only in Lincolnshire, but in rural areas safety, local communities can directly influence the use more widely. My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham of their roads, as my hon. and learned Friend said his (Guy Opperman) made a contribution that reiterated community has been doing, by various methods, one of that road safety in rural areas is a key priority for many which is the community road watch scheme, whereby hon. Members, and it is a top priority for the Government local volunteers work with the police to monitor local and for me. Clearly, road deaths and injuries are not just roads. They can often provide valuable data and suggestions statistics; they are tragedies for all those affected. Behind as to local road safety. However, it must be for traffic the statistics are men, women and children. Much of authorities to set speed limits that strike a sensible the harm and cost is avoidable, and those things are not balance between the needs of all road users. the inevitable consequence of road transport. My hon. and learned Friend mentioned the 40 mph Britain is a world leader in road safety. Although we zones. The Department particularly wanted to consider can be rightly proud of that fact, there can never be any appropriate areas—outside villages and in some areas room for complacency. As we set out in the strategic of natural beauty—for using 40 mph zones. The framework for road safety, the focus is on increasing the Department wrote to the County Surveyors Society range of educational options for drivers who make traffic and safety group in 2009 offering funding for genuine mistakes, while improving enforcement against local authorities to look at having 40 mph zones with the most dangerous and deliberate offenders. the speed limit painted on the carriageway, so that some It is well known that a byword of this Government is of the road safety benefits could be introduced without our belief in localism. Therefore I believe that, wherever the ugliness of repeater signs on poles by the roadside. possible, local authorities should have the freedom to However, it is a disappointment that, to date, no local make their own decisions about road safety, according authorities have taken advantage of that opportunity. to their own local needs, and to develop local solutions. There are some 40 mph zones in rural areas, but I hope In many cases, part of ensuring road safety must involve that others will consider the advantages in signage and the speed limits set in those areas. road safety of taking advantage of the scheme. I thought it would be useful to state at the outset the I hope that I have already made it clear that road Government’s position and thinking on the setting and safety is a key priority for the Government and for me enforcing of speed limits. As my hon. and learned personally and we continue to take steps to improve the Friend said, national speed limits are clearly not appropriate safety of our roads. None the less, if we consider the for all roads. Traffic authorities set local speed limits differential impact of road accidents on rural and urban where local needs and conditions demand a speed limit roads, we can see that some two thirds of fatal traffic lower than the national speed limit. Speed limits need to accidents happened on rural roads. The Department’s be suitable for local conditions, and I hope that many in analysis of collision and casualty data shows that in the House would recognise that councils are best placed Great Britain in 2011 rural roads accounted for 66% of to determine what those limits are, based on local all road deaths and 82% of car occupant deaths, but knowledge and the views of the community, and having under 45% of the distance travelled. It is clear that regard to guidance issued by the Department, and to although we have seen an overall reduction in road the law and enforcement methods available to them. deaths and an improvement in the road safety statistics, As part of our campaign to keep improving road rural roads have proportionately suffered a major impact. safety, we have already given local authorities the power My hon. and learned Friend referred to the particular to introduce 20 mph speed limits and 20 mph zones on issue in Lincolnshire and I was disappointed to hear their roads if they believe it appropriate to do so. My that there had been yet another accident in only the last hon. Friend the Member for Hexham made the point week. Since 2008, the number of people seriously injured about 20 mph speed limits around schools, and it is on rural roads has increased, bucking the general trend. exactly this power that we would hope local authorities As my hon. and learned Friend articulated well, local would use. The Department provides local authorities residents in the village of Fulbeck wish to see a lower 441 Speed Limits (Rural Lincolnshire)9 JANUARY 2013 Speed Limits (Rural Lincolnshire) 442

[Stephen Hammond] village or the middle of a village. The final decision on whether a settlement is a village for the purposes of speed limit. He was right to highlight his correspondence setting a speed limit is a matter for local authorities, but with my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for my hon. and learned Friend will be interested to hear Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), and I have read it that we are offering guidance on what definition of a through. It is clear that although the setting of local village should be used when a decision about appropriate speed limits is primarily a matter for local authorities, speed limits is being made; it involves 20 or more houses and therefore an issue on which I am loth to and on on one or both sides of the road and a minimum length which I would usually consider it inappropriate to intervene, of 600 metres. If there are fewer than 20 houses we I encourage local authorities to ensure that their speed suggest that, when setting speed limits, traffic authorities limits are in line with the Department’s guidelines and should make special allowance for any other key buildings, are kept under review as circumstances change. The such as a church, shop or school. Government encourage local authorities to consider the We are also developing a web-based tool, which will introduction of more 20 mph limits and zones, particularly allow local authorities to assess the full costs and benefits in built-up villages such as that described by my hon. of any proposed scheme and the speed limits most and learned Friend. I look forward to discussing the suitable for local conditions. We hope that all local issue with him when I visit his constituency later in the authorities will take advantage of the scheme when year. reviewing their local speed limits. My hon. and learned Friend referred to the Department’s As I have already stressed, the Government believe guidelines to local authorities on speed limits. We have that wherever possible local authorities should have the recently consulted on the revision and reissue of those freedom to make their own decisions so that they develop guidelines on setting speed limits in urban and rural solutions most appropriate for their local needs. The areas and we intend to publish the revised speed limit Government do not intend to make our guidance on circular shortly. The guidelines should be used for setting setting speed limits mandatory. However, we expect all local speed limits on single and dual carriageway local authorities to use and follow the guidance in roads in urban and rural areas and aim to provide determining the circumstances for setting local speed greater clarity to local authorities about where and how limits. I hope that Lincolnshire county council, as it has to set those limits. I hope they will find that helpful. The suggested in correspondence to one of my hon. and guidance should be the basis for assessing local speed learned Friend’s constituents, will use the guidance, limits and for developing route management strategies keep speed limits under review and be able to access the and the speed management strategies that can be used new tool. in local plans. In closing, I should say that I will be delighted to My hon. and learned Friend will be interested to note accept my hon. and learned Friend’s kind invitation to that the guidance will clearly show traffic authorities both Fulbeck and West Willoughby; I understand that that they should keep their speed limits under review my officials and his office are already corresponding with changing circumstances and consider the introduction about a date for that. I look forward to seeing the of more speed limits in urban areas, and primarily problems that he has talked about tonight at first hand. residential built-up village streets, to ensure greater I hope that representatives of Lincolnshire county council safety for residents and users of the road. The Department will have listened to his contribution and those of his would expect a 30 mph speed limit to be the norm in constituents and that by the time I reach Fulbeck, the villages, but in many villages a 20 mph zone or limit problem will have been solved. might be more appropriate. Question put and agreed to. I note that in the correspondence between my hon. and learned Friend and my predecessor there was some 7.37 pm dispute about what might or might not constitute a House adjourned. 77WH 9 JANUARY 2013 Diabetes 78WH

Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I pay tribute to the Westminster Hall hon. Gentleman for all his amazing work on diabetes over his parliamentary career. As he has done, I have Wednesday 9 January 2013 tabled questions to ask simply how high the spend on diabetes was in individual PCTs last year, only to be told that the information was not available and so could [MR DAVID CRAUSBY in the Chair] not be given to me. Is not that kind of information vital for an effective strategy on diabetes? Diabetes Mr Sanders: That would certainly be extremely helpful Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting and would complement the atlas of care by, in a sense, be now adjourned.—(Mark Lancaster.) putting the actuality into the story behind the figures. It is extremely unhelpful not to be able to drill down to 9.30 am what is really happening on the ground; we could do Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): It is a pleasure to that if such statistics were available. speak under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. Some of the problems of disseminating information I want to put on the record the difference between have been offset by the work of NHS Diabetes. It has type 1 and type 2 diabetes, although the debate is about been instrumental, first, in monitoring variations in diabetes more generally. Type 1 diabetes develops when care and driving the collection of more robust data, which the body’s immune system attacks and destroys the cells has culminated in an extremely important publication, that produce insulin. As a result, the body is unable to the national atlas of variation; and, secondly, in working produce insulin, which leads to increased blood glucose tirelessly to rectify the problems it uncovers, linking levels and in turn can cause serious organ damage to all national policy intention with policy implementation organ systems in the body. About 15% of people with on the ground, including support targeted on where the diabetes in the UK are type 1s. I wish to declare my greatest improvements are necessary. It is important interest as someone who was diagnosed as type 1 nearly that that work continues, as much more could be done. I a quarter of a century ago, and I am still here. Type 2 hope that the Minister will reassure me that, despite the diabetes develops when the body does not produce upheavals in the commissioning architecture, NHS Diabetes enough insulin to maintain a normal blood glucose will retain its central role. level or is unable effectively to use the insulin produced. The long-term complications that challenge both type 1 Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I, and type 2 sufferers are much the same. too, pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his fantastic work as chairman of the all-party group on diabetes. Diabetes remains one of the largest challenges to our Does he agree that there need to be performance targets, health care system, with about 3.7 million sufferers in like those for cancer, stroke and heart disease? At the the UK; almost 1 million more are estimated to have the moment, there are not the mandatory performance condition, although they do not know it. The numbers targets for diabetes that there are for those other diseases. are expected to rise, which all makes for a significant challenge to the NHS, with an estimated spend of Mr Sanders: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for £10 billion a year on diabetes-related treatments. Much making that point. When one puts together speeches, of that spend is unnecessary: people with the condition they sometimes go on too long, and I had cut out that far too often suffer from late diagnosis, preventable bit, so I am glad that he has raised it. The big issue is complications and variations in care; they are often that the cause of death is sometimes recorded as stroke overlooked for specialist care when being treated for or heart disease when the underlying problem is diabetes. other conditions, particularly as in-patients; and they We have targets for cancer, heart disease and stroke. We can be prevented from accessing treatment by the short-term really ought to look at diabetes as the root cause of financial ethos embedded in some primary care trusts. other conditions for which there are targets. None the less, we have made progress in recent years. The variation in care across the country is probably I pay particular tribute to my right hon. Friend the the largest worry for patients now, and the new Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) and the implementation plan should focus on that. Failings in former ministerial team for the open and constructive diabetes care cause an estimated 24,000 premature deaths way in which they pursued the issue and ensured that each year. In 2001, the Department of Health published diabetes remained a high priority during the stormy the national service framework for diabetes, which set times of NHS reform. The all-party group on diabetes, out clear minimum standards for good diabetes care. which I chair, has already met the new Minister, and I Those standards include nine basic care processes that am confident that the good progress will be sustained, if aim to end preventable complications by looking for not surpassed. I am already heartened by the new early warning signs. Despite those targets, much of the Secretary of State’s pledge to focus more on patient country has seen little progress towards improving detection outcomes and the patient experience. Let us hope that of type 2 diabetes and reducing the number of preventable that intention manifests itself in clear instructions for diabetes complications. In 2009-10, results from the managers and commissioners. national diabetes audit showed wild variations in inputs One of the priorities on which Ministers can have and outcomes for both type 1 and type 2, including the a direct impact is the promotion of leadership by the astounding figure that the proportion of type 1s receiving Department of Health. In recent years, a problem has the recommended nine care processes ranged from as arisen from the apparent inability to disseminate best low as 5% to 50%, with an average of 32% in England. practice around the UK and the unwillingness of some The figures were only marginally better for type 2s. It NHS organisations to implement it. really is not good enough. 79WH Diabetes9 JANUARY 2013 Diabetes 80WH

[Mr Sanders] long term. Good patient education programmes may require some investment, but they would pay for themselves The point about the condition is that people treat many times over. themselves 364 days a year and see a practice nurse or On a broader level, work needs to be done on detection sometimes a general practitioner—more rarely, these and prevention. The number of people suffering from days, a consultant—only once a year, although they type 2 diabetes is set to reach a staggering 5 million by should receive the nine care processes. The chance of 2025. However, what many people do not know is that developing diabetic complications can be reduced by type 2 diabetes is a largely preventable disease. At the keeping blood pressure, blood glucose levels and cholesterol very least, its onset can be delayed and complications levels low. Regular monitoring, backed up by periodic reduced. checks, is the key. The results from the national diabetes NHS checks are vital to the detection and prevention audit demonstrate that more needs to be done to end of diabetes. In theory, such checks are available to all the postcode lottery of care for people with the condition. 40 to 74-year-olds who are seen to be at risk of developing When as few as 5% of people with type 1 diabetes are diabetes. Shockingly, a number of primary care trusts in receiving all nine care processes in some areas, there is a the UK failed to offer a single person an NHS health definite failure of care. If all health care trusts followed check last year, which demonstrates the dangerous variations the national service framework, such complications as in provision in the NHS. The Government can look to blindness and kidney disease—as well as stroke, heart rectify that if they create a new national implementation and other diseases—could be prevented. plan for diabetes. Indeed they may even take up the I hope that we will explore a range of best practices, suggestion by the hon. Member for Gillingham and but I want to highlight a couple that have scope to bring Rainham (Rehman Chishti) to set targets for diabetes. immediate improvement at very little cost. An acute This year, the current national framework for diabetes issue is the provision of insulin pumps for type 1s. That comes to an end. It is important that we build on the is an example of where the UK should look abroad for successes of the framework, that we focus on reducing best practice. Type 1s in other developed countries, such discrepancies in diabetes care and that the new framework as France, Germany or the US, can expect to benefit emphasises the importance of health checks and prevention from a pump if that is required for their diabetes of the disease through simple means such as diet management. Somewhere between 15% and 35% of management. Indeed, it is essential for the Government type 1s in those countries have pumps, which enables to spell out to commissioners and to patients what them to lead normal lives, but in the UK the figure is services can be expected and to provide a road map to less than 4%. That is clearly a failure of the commissioning show where we want to be in a few years’ time and how structure as it is now. Will the Minister address how that to get there. is likely to improve? The Work Foundation has estimated that, if pump usage reached 12%, the NHS would save John Pugh (Southport) (LD): My hon. Friend analyses about £60 million a year. the fair degree of regional variation that exists and talks about a postcode lottery. Does he think that that is Another example of where best practice is needed is primarily down to a lack of leadership at PCT level, or surprisingly simple: good local leadership. Good leadership, to the qualitative variations that we get anyway in as I have been fortunate enough to experience in my primary care practice among GPs across the country? own area of Torbay, is essential to promoting effective and integrated services. Integration is key to reducing costs in the long term and, more importantly, to improving Mr Sanders: It is a combination of both. We cannot patient outcomes, which all too often get lost in the prescribe from the centre precisely what must happen in debate over health care services. every area. Of course local areas must reflect their own demographics and their own health picture and be able The move to clinical commissioning groups, with the to apply priorities accordingly.However, there is something potential for better scrutiny and criticism from patient to be said for ensuring that local areas have the tools groups, local authorities and health care staff could, that they need, which is where NHS Diabetes did such in theory, lead something of a revolution in spurring a good job on the back of the NHS framework for innovation, creativity and in the striving to find best diabetes. practice. It is equally important that health checks are used to detect diabetes in its earliest stages, as early detection Just as educating the commissioners is crucial, so, for and appropriate treatment can prevent the severity of diabetes, is patient education, which has the happy side the condition and the risks associated with complications effect of making patients far more aware of whether such as amputations. they are receiving a good service and enabling them to become better advocates for their condition. I have no doubt that the great knowledge possessed by volunteers Rehman Chishti: On health checks, the hon. Gentleman for Diabetes UK, the Juvenile Diabetes Research must have seen the report that says that, according to Foundation, INPUT and the many other groups involved Diabetes UK, nine out of 10 people do not know the in diabetes will be a considerable asset in shaping good four main symptoms of type 1 diabetes. Surely, therefore, services at a local level now that we have better scope for the education should look at ways in which people can patient scrutiny and involvement. identify for themselves the symptoms that can lead to type 1 diabetes. In the wider sense, patient education is the core to preventing complications, which diminish the quality of Mr Sanders: That is a very good point. There is the life for patients and which, all too often, reduce life 4 Ts campaign on diabetes. If I remember correctly, expectancy and increase the costs to the NHS in the the four Ts are thirst, tiredness, toilet and one other— 81WH Diabetes9 JANUARY 2013 Diabetes 82WH

I always remember three, but not four. Anybody who given people who have perhaps never before enjoyed feels thirstier or more tired than usual or is visiting the individual or team exercise a new drive and desire for toilet more often should see their GP. A simple test—it sport, which needs to be harnessed and nurtured. Gym is not an invasive test—can be conducted and after an membership and even one-off sessions for swimming appropriate early diagnosis a patient can start to feel still seem to be extremely pricey, which makes those better very quickly.An ancient fear of great big hypodermic forms of exercise inaccessible for many who could needles being stuck in their skin deters many people perhaps benefit from them. However, I am aware that from going to a GP, but only 15% of diabetics are put some inner-city areas have set up programmes that on to an insulin regime on diagnosis and that is because allow residents to use facilities at a reduced rate or even they suffer from type 1. Most type 2 sufferers never have at no charge. I wonder whether that idea should be to take insulin via an injection device, and, in any case, taken hold of by more UK communities, and whether those devices are subcutaneous and really nothing to the Government could assist all local authorities to find fear. I speak as someone who has to inject four or more ways to subsidise it, perhaps by working in partnership times a day, and it really is not as bad as people fear. with private sector organisations. People should see their GP. If they do not, matters will Having facilities and making them affordable is an get worse, complications will set in and they will rue the issue, which is why I find it unbelievable that some local day that they did not sort out the problem early on. authorities, including my own, give permission for building on sports facilities; in Torbay, the only public grass The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health tennis courts in the local area are about to be built on. (Anna Soubry): I know that it is unusual for a Minister Andy Murray won his Olympic gold medal on grass to intervene at this stage, but will the hon. Gentleman and generated more interest in the sport last year, and help me in this matter? Is not it right that there have my area has produced some of the great British tennis been huge advances in the administration of insulin? A players down the decades, including British men and constituent of mine showed me the pump on his stomach women No. 1s in Mike Sangster and Sue Barker. That that gives him the right amount of insulin. He even had makes that act by my local authority one of unforgivable a device on his mobile phone that could calculate from short-sightedness. a photograph of a particular meal the amount of insulin I have outlined many of the issues surrounding diabetes that should be administered to his body. He clicks on care, but I will concentrate now on some of the things the app and the insulin is given to him at the appropriate that I hope the Minister will focus on delivering in the time, before or after he has his meal. Does the hon. coming years. There needs to be a comprehensive national Gentleman agree that those are wonderful devices that implementation plan, containing measures to ensure should be prescribed to people as much as possible? that local leadership is robust and long term in its thinking. Such a plan also requires measures to focus Mr Sanders: I cannot fail but to agree with every on detection and prevention, and it needs to ensure that word that the Minister has said, and I am absolutely best practice can be effectively disseminated. Three delighted that she has said that. Children in particular priorities face our NHS and other health care systems benefit from pumps, because they can go to school and around the world: prevention; diagnosis; and care. We lead normal lives alongside their school friends. It is have a long way to go to meeting the challenges of each difficult for them to find the space and time to inject, one. and these little devices are doing the job for them all the time. The technological advances are such that we may Several hon. Members rose— well reach a point in the not too distant future where there is a device that both tests a person’s blood sugar Mr David Crausby (in the Chair): I will not impose a level and then injects an appropriate level of insulin, time limit on speeches, but four Members wish to speak without them having to check what they are eating. The and I would appreciate it if they could keep their little device is like having a pancreas attached to the side contributions to around 10 minutes, or less, so that I of the body. That is where we are going. At the moment, can call all four of them. however, pump usage is very low in the UK. It is about having not just the pump but the services behind the pump—the trained nurses who can train and educate 9.51 am the person to use the pump properly, the technological Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Thank you, support that needs to be there to back it up and the Mr Crausby, for calling me to speak. I congratulate the medical expertise to understand the difference between hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) on securing this a pump regime and any other regime. That is the detail, important debate. and I am really glad that the Minister is on the ball here. Sadly, we had 23 amputations from diabetes last year The provision of education about diabetes seems to in my constituency of Blaenau Gwent, despite having a be somewhat of a lottery in terms of who is actually valued specialist foot ulcer clinic run by an advanced receiving information and advice. There needs to be a podiatry practitioner. So last November I asked the standardised programme of education on the condition Leader of the House for a debate on how to prevent that is accessible and effective for all. amputations resulting from diabetes. We must not miss the opportunity to encourage The Public Accounts Committee, of which I am a healthier lifestyles as a consequence of the Olympic member, was given evidence that the NHS spends at legacy. It is essential that funding and provision for least £3.9 billion a year on diabetes services. It is shocking sports facilities and physical education continue to be that the lion’s share of that money is swallowed up given priority in the coming years to capitalise on in the treatment of avoidable complications. As we increased interest in active sport. The Olympics have know, these complications are not minor; they include 83WH Diabetes9 JANUARY 2013 Diabetes 84WH

[Nick Smith] How can we improve diet, reduce alcohol consumption and encourage physical activity? Good ideas include: a amputations, blindness and kidney disease. Such reduction in the sugar content of soft drinks; a realistic complications are extremely debilitating for the sufferer minimum price for alcohol of 50p per unit; restrictions and extremely expensive to treat. In the worst cases, on advertising and sports sponsorship; action to maintain diabetes can lead to premature death. That is a waste of nutritious school meals; teaching our children to cook, both precious lives and resources. and encouraging regular sport and exercise in schools. Health professionals say that there are 125 amputations Together, these ideas are a promising mix of radical weekly because of diabetes, yet 80% of those amputations measures, unlike the Government’s “responsibility deal”, are preventable. The National Audit Office says that we which is just another case of the triumph of hope over could save £34 million annually if late referrals to experience. specialist teams were halved. So, it is in the interests of Last week, a report from the Royal College of Physicians patients and NHS budgets to deliver effective services, called for a senior figure in Government to take charge with the emphasis—as ever—on prevention and early of obesity issues across all Departments, covering every diagnosis. area from agriculture to work and pensions. In the US, we have seen the mayor of New York, Michael Bloomberg, The PAC’s report on diabetes services, which was ban the sale of “super-size” drinks at entertainment published last November, found that fewer than half venues. Similar bold and symbolic action is now urgently the people with diabetes receive the nine basic checks needed from the coalition Government here. identified in minimum standards of care that were established more than 10 years ago. Unlike cancer, stroke As I said at the beginning of my speech, there were and heart disease, there are no mandatory performance 23 amputations in Blaenau Gwent last year because of targets for diabetes. diabetes, and across the UK there will have been many thousands of such amputations, many of which were The PAC report highlighted the postcode lottery in preventable. The Government need to up their game. provision for people with diabetes, and it also said—to a chorus of consensus—what needs to be done. However, it is just not happening nationwide. Put bluntly, we 9.57 am found that money is being wasted. There is no strong Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): It is a pleasure national leadership; no effective accountability arrangements to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby, for this for health service commissioners; no appropriate debate. performance incentives for providers, and no evidence I congratulate the hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) to assure us that the new NHS structure would address on securing the debate on such an important issue, the failings that have been identified. which affects a growing proportion of our population. The Leader of the House has told me that diabetes Indeed, having listened to the contributions that have care is a Government priority. So I hope the Government already been made, it is very clear that there are many will support a specific pledge that would be widely facets of diabetes that could be covered during this welcomed. The Putting Feet First campaign, the supporters debate, but I think that we will all probably concentrate of which include Diabetes UK and the College of on amputation. I will spend a few minutes focusing on Podiatry, wants there to be a realistic target of a 50% the importance of podiatry services, which can reduce reduction in amputations because of diabetes by 2018. preventable amputations for those with diabetes. That is a crucial point, because the Health Minister, Currently, 4% of the population live with diabetes, Earl Howe, told the House of Lords recently that and a fifth of those people will develop a foot ulcer at “Diabetic foot disease accounts for more hospital bed days some point. At any one time, there are 61,000 diabetics than all other diabetes complications”.—[Official Report, House in England who have foot ulcers. A foot ulcer may not of Lords, 29 November 2012; Vol. 741, c. 331.] sound like a very serious condition, but for a diabetic Policies to deliver that target include having a the consequences of foot ulcers can be severe, and even multidisciplinary foot care team in every hospital. fatal if the appropriate treatment is not given. Statistics Shockingly, in 2011 31% of hospitals had no podiatry for England alone show that, of those diabetics with provision at all. We also need foot protection teams in foot ulcers, 6,000 people—that is 10% of the total every community, which will mean more, not fewer, number—had leg, toe or foot amputations in 2009-10. podiatrists in post. Based on current trends, that figure is projected to rise to 7,000 people by 2014-15. An amputation is devastating. We need a strong message from Government that If any individual loses a limb, it will have a far-reaching preventable amputations must be reduced, that local impact on their life. For many diabetics, an amputation variations will not be tolerated and that precious NHS can increase the likelihood of premature death. resources will not be wasted. In addition, as others have Let me put those figures for diabetes in context. The already said, the importance of patient engagement five-year survival rate for those with breast cancer is cannot be stated too often. In their current consultation just over 80%, but for those with a diabetic foot ulcer on diabetes, the Welsh Government highlight the benefits the five-year survival rate falls to just under 60%. For of having more informed and more confident diabetes those people who have a lower limb amputation, their patients. Education is an integral part of personalised survival rate worsens after five years. The consequences patient care. are even more horrific when we consider that 80% of I will now make some concluding comments about those amputations are preventable. In 2012, that is how we can turn the tide, given that current projections simply incredible. We are not doing everything we can show that the number of people with diabetes will rise to rectify that and to ensure that people have the information from 3.1 million to 3.8 million by 2020. and services that will help them protect their limbs. 85WH Diabetes9 JANUARY 2013 Diabetes 86WH

It is scandalous that with our 21st-century health financial rewards to clinicians should not be the driver care we are allowing people to go through the completely of what happens or the pathways that are followed. unnecessary, torturous and miserable experience of That is good clinical practice. Surely to goodness, if a amputation. Prevention is supposed to be the watchword referral to podiatry is required, that is what should of the modern national health service; through prevention, happen. It could also be said that if the services are not people can enjoy a better quality of life and the NHS there or are being reduced, the GP has less incentive to can save itself millions. refer, knowing that it will take so long to get an appointment. It is therefore hard to understand why better prevention The College of Podiatry is is not deployed with diabetes and amputations. Why is “fearful that public expenditure constraints mean that rather than more effective use of podiatry services not a priority for being prioritised through the QIPP”— the health service? At a time when the number of quality, innovation, productivity and prevention— diabetics is growing, and with it the costs of treatment, “agenda, current podiatric services are at best, being frozen and podiatry could be a means of improving a diabetic’s in some cases being reduced, with patient services including the quality of life and saving the NHS money. Amputations diabetic foot service deteriorating as a consequence”. cost the NHS considerable sums, which are estimated That has massive implications for the NHS budget and to be in the region of £600 million to £700 million each for the patients themselves. During a debate in the other year. place on 29 November 2012, the Under-Secretary of Results from pilot projects can demonstrate the positive State, Earl Howe, accepted that impact of investing in good podiatry services. A “rapid access to multidisciplinary foot care teams can lead to multidisciplinary foot care team for in-patients with faster healing, fewer amputations and improved survival. Savings diabetes in Southampton led to a reduction in the to the NHS can substantially exceed the cost of the team.”—[Official length of in-patient stays from 50 days to 18 days. Not Report, House of Lords, 29 November 2012; Vol. 741, c. 336.] only were patient outcomes improved but annual savings My question for the Minister is whether the NHS, to the NHS of £900,000 were generated from an investment which is in the throes of a reorganisation and being of £180,000. That savings ratio of £5 saved for every more localised through clinical commissioning groups, £1 invested was bettered in another example. In James as well as being put under increasing financial pressure, Cook hospital in Middlesbrough, a multidisciplinary will move towards or away from having more multi- foot care team generated annual savings of some £250,000 disciplinary foot care teams, given that fewer than half at a cost of £30,000, which is a ratio of £8 saved for of hospitals currently have such a team. Investment in every £1 invested. Those figures show how it would be more podiatry services would result in improved foot not only the Government and the NHS that reaped screening, appropriate follow-up services, enhanced great rewards from a small investment, but diabetics care when required, better outcomes—including fewer and those who need podiatry care. Based on the pilot amputations—reduced length of stay in hospitals, increased evidence, logic would suggest that even in these straitened quality adjusted life years and reduced morbidity. We times we should be investing in podiatry services, because would all win; we would have a healthier nation and that could save even more money and improve health. significant financial savings. There is evidence, however, that the opposite is happening and that services are not improving. The danger of the 10.7 am new arrangements is that important issues fall between the cracks, are left to local decision making and do not Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): First, I thank the get the prioritisation they deserve. More than half of hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) for bringing this hospitals do not have a multidisciplinary foot care issue to the House. Secondly, I declare an interest, as I team. In fact, 31% of hospitals do not even have an am a type 2 diabetic and have been for four years. It has in-patient podiatry service, according to data from the given me a knowledge of, and an interest in, the issue, national diabetes in-patient audit in 2011. That reflects although not a total knowledge—far from it. It has also a worsening service, because in 2010 only 27% of sites made me more aware when constituents come to me had no provision. The amount of provision has dropped, with issues relating to diabetes and has given me an and nearly a third of hospitals no longer have that interest in those issues. service. The disease has completely changed my life, as it There is also evidence that there is a problem with would, because it is type 2. Diabetes is a major issue in GPs having no incentive to refer their patients on to a every constituency. As someone who enjoyed the sweet foot protection team for education or follow-up. Why is trolley more than anyone else—to use Northern Ireland that? Why is this woeful situation tolerated? If more terminology, when there was a bun-worry going on, I referrals were made, we would see a beneficial reduction was at the front of the queue—the sweet stuff was in ulcer and amputation rates. something that I indulged in regularly. Along with my stress levels, that has meant that I am a diabetic today. John Pugh: Will the hon. Lady explain why a GP The statistics have been mentioned, but they bear would need an incentive to do what is clinically desirable repeating, due to the seriousness of the UK’s problem, in the first place? which is etched in everyone’s minds. The UK has the fifth highest rate in the world of children with type 1 Rosie Cooper: I absolutely share that concern, which diabetes. In Northern Ireland, we have 1,040 children is why I cannot understand the current view that doctors with type 1 diabetes, some of whom are born with the do only what they get paid for and if there is no money condition. I want to give a Northern Ireland perspective, attached to something, it may not be the first thing they but I will bring in the UK strategy, because diabetes do. As I pointed out in Westminster Hall yesterday, affects the whole UK, and that is why it is important. when we had a debate on the Liverpool care pathway, Some 24.5 children in every 100,000 aged 14 and under 87WH Diabetes9 JANUARY 2013 Diabetes 88WH

[Jim Shannon] likely to get diabetes? For example, according to the Wellcome Trust, 50% of people from south Asian and are diagnosed with the condition every year in the UK. Afro-Caribbean backgrounds would have diabetes by We had a reception where we met some of those young the age of 80. Any UK strategy would therefore have to people, and if we needed a focus, the focus was there take ethnic composition into account, because such that day for those of us who attended. I think that most people are affected differently. of the people in the Chamber were there. The UK’s rate is about twice as high as that in Spain, where it is 13 children in every 100,000, and in France, Jim Shannon: That is an excellent point, and I am where it is 12.2 children in every 100,000. The league sure that the Minister will address it in her response. table covers only the 88 countries where the incidence of There are groups in the whole of the United Kingdom type 1 diabetes is recorded. There are 1,040 children in which diabetes is more prevalent, and we need to under the age of 17 with type 1 diabetes in Northern look at those target areas. Ireland, and almost one in four of them experienced There are 3.7 million people in the UK diagnosed diabetic ketoacidosis before a diagnosis was made. with type 2 diabetes. I was diagnosed four years ago. Diabetic ketoacidosis can develop quickly. It occurs With me, it was down to bad eating habits, stress and when a severe lack of insulin upsets the body’s normal the fact that there were no set hours to my job. I ate chemical balance and causes it to produce poisonous whatever was quickest, and that was Chinese, usually chemicals known as ketones. If undetected, the ketones with two bottles of coke, five nights a week. That was can result in serious illness, coma and even death. The why I was 17 stone. I am now down to 14 and a half diabetes itself is not the killer; it is the offshoots from it, stone because I no longer do that. The issue is eating the effects on the heart, circulation, blood pressure and and living styles—eating what is quickest rather than sight, and the possibility of strokes and amputations. what is best. The number of people living with type 1 and type 2 Edwin Poots, the Minister at the Department of diabetes has increased by 33% in Northern Ireland. In Health, Social Services and Public Safety in Northern my Strangford constituency, the number has gone up by Ireland, is very aware of the ticking time bomb that is 30%, with 800 people—I am one of them, by the diabetes. I am aware of the key initiatives in operation way—becoming diabetic in the past seven years. That in Northern Ireland, and I know that the Minister here compares to 25% in England, 20% in Wales and 18% in today has had discussions with the Minister in Northern Scotland. In our small part of the United Kingdom, the Ireland. They are doing a great job, including setting total number of adults—aged 17 and over and registered aside funding to employ additional diabetic staff— with GPs—with diabetes is 75,837, and a further specialists, nurses, dieticians and podiatrists. That is 1,040 young people under the age of 17 have type 1. providing all the help that a diabetic needs, but it is still There has been a significant rise in that number also, not enough. with the prevalence in Northern Ireland now at more than 4%. An estimated 10,000 people in Northern Ireland We need a concerted effort across the United Kingdom, have diabetes and do not know that they do. They have through the media, and even perhaps through the TV a ticking time bomb in their bodies; they wonder why soaps. I am not a soap watcher. I could not tell anyone they are not well, and the cause is diabetes. what happens in “Emmerdale” or “Coronation Street”, but my wife could. She knows everyone in them—what Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): they are doing this week and what will happen to them My hon. Friend is talking about the different prevalence next week. Could we not perhaps use the soaps to make of diabetes throughout the UK. Does he agree that best people more aware of the issue? I understand that practice regarding early detection and the promotion of plenty of issues are brought up in them regularly, so an active lifestyle could be a target for all the devolved perhaps we should try this one. regions across the UK and here in England? The Minister would do well to respond in relation to Ministers in the It is great that our children are taught about diabetes devolved regions taking on such best practice to combat in school. It is surprising what a five or 10-year-old diabetes. knows about food that their mum and dad do not. Who is educating the mums and dads at home who are Jim Shannon: Yes, I agree. When people make making the dinner and buying the shopping? The hon. interventions, I always wonder whether they have read Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) made a point my script—preventive medication is the very next issue about how the food coming into the house is controlled on it. by the parents. Diabetes UK Northern Ireland is taking In my doctors surgery in Kircubbin and, indeed, part in an organisation-wide campaign entitled “Putting across Northern Ireland preventive measures are in Feet First” to raise awareness of amputations among place. There are diabetic surgeries, and the matter is people living with diabetes and to work to prevent taken seriously. The UK strategy that we have had for unnecessary amputations. the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and that will come to a conclusion The Minister might want to comment on the new this calendar year has made significant progress towards medications that are available. In the press this week, reducing the potential numbers, but diabetes has increased there was talk about a new diabetic medication in tablet over the same period. There are some 100 diabetics in form that could replace—not totally but partially—type my doctors surgery in Kircubbin. 1 injections. The figure used was a cost of £35 per month. It would be good if we could get some feedback Rehman Chishti: The hon. Gentleman talks about the about whether the new medications will be available United Kingdom strategy. Does he accept that certain across the United Kingdom and whether everyone will people from different ethnic backgrounds are more be able to take advantage of them. 89WH Diabetes9 JANUARY 2013 Diabetes 90WH

In Northern Ireland last year, 199 diabetes-related failure. We all recognise and it has been clearly stated amputations took place, and the “Putting Feet First” that type 2 diabetes is rampant in our society and is campaign highlights that an estimated 80% of lower- lifestyle-related. Diagnosis is important, but I got the limb amputations are preventable. There must be a UK sense that that is fundamentally not the problem. We strategy to reduce diabetes-related amputations by 50% can get diagnosis right. There are clearly failures in over the next five years. What can we put in place in this general practice, in not picking up the condition early Chamber to highlight and support the campaign? How enough, but we do tend to find out who has it and who can we use our influence to see the number of cases of does not. type 2 diabetes dropping, instead of this steady rise? The issue appears to be treatment, as has been phrased The links between type 2 diabetes and obesity are by most Members. From events that I have attended firmly established, and it is clear that, without appropriate from time to time in the House, I am aware that the intervention, obesity can develop into diabetes over a treatment of diabetes is becoming increasingly sophisticated. relatively short time. For instance, the risk of developing A series of technology is attached to that nowadays, type 2 diabetes is about 20 times more likely in obese, and we also have the advent of telehealth. All the major compared to lean, people. A newspaper recently stated practitioners of telehealth are keen to provide better that academic sources have estimated that the predicted services for diabetics. rise in obesity rates over the next 20 years will result in Additionally, there is the expert patient initiative, more than 1 million extra cases of type 2 diabetes, and about which I was slightly sceptical when it was launched. that is really worrying. Can that go unchallenged, when The initiative is becoming very effective in connection it is within our power, as parliamentarians, to do something to diabetes. The charities are playing along with that, about it, at least by putting a strategy in place or by too. A lot of good things are going on, but we are beefing up the ones that we already have? When the recording a variation in practice. There is something of current UK-wide strategy ends, it will perhaps be time a postcode lottery. I wonder what will prevent that. In to do something more. which direction will we go? I live the life, as do many others, of testing my blood every day, of feeling unwell when my blood sugar is out My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay voiced concerns of control and of worrying that the next visit to the about the future of NHS Diabetes, but, like the hon. doctor will bring worse news, which can be the case if Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper), I wonder we do not discipline ourselves and ensure that we do how that will play into the new system. There seems to things right. That is not the life that I want to have, or be two ways in which things could go. Without the local the life that I want my family, friends or constituents to primary care trust, there may be, temporarily at any have. The way to take on the issue is to continue with rate, an absence of leadership, because one of the PCTs’ the UK-wide strategy, with dedicated funding and with jobs was to manage GPs, to keep them up to the mark all the regions working together, which will save money and to assess how well they were performing. Clearly, in the long run and, more importantly, improve the part of the problem that we are addressing today is the quality of lives across the United Kingdom. failure of GPs, first, to diagnose diabetes early enough and, secondly, to treat it as effectively as they might. It is I urge the Minister to take the initiative. I believe that a fact that, although they are slow to admit it, GP she will and that her response will be very positive, practices in this country can be something of a lottery; because she understands the issues. I urge her to work they are extraordinarily variable in quality and character. with the devolved bodies, in coming together to disarm Such features may be more manifest in the new structure. the ticking time bomb of diabetes—the cost of which some people indicate will be £10 billion—before it explodes. My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay sketched a Type 2 diabetes is preventable, and we must do all that more optimistic scenario, however, in which the health we can to prevent it. Education, with attention paid by and wellbeing boards will become ever more vigilant everyone in this Parliament and the regional assemblies, and keep GPs up to the mark. GPs themselves have is the way to do that. suggested to me that one of the best ways to produce good and more standardised practice is peer review, John Pugh rose— with every GP knowing what other GPs are doing. I am not sure which of those two outcomes is more Keith Vaz: rose— likely, but there is great concern that the Department of Health ensures that the right one results. Mr David Crausby (in the Chair): John Pugh. I am uncomfortable with the thought, as raised by several Members today, that we could simply impose targets and that that would somehow get things right. 10.18 am The hon. Member for West Lancashire and I attended a John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I am happy to give way debate not 24 hours ago on the Liverpool care pathway, to the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith in which we considered the corrosive and dysfunctional Vaz)—in any case, I will make just a few remarks. I pay effects of targets. Once targets are set, we do not always tribute to his efforts in the House of Commons in this get the results that we want. What, for example, would a area, as well as those of my hon. Friend the Member for target to reduce amputations do? Would it mean people Torbay (Mr Sanders). do not do amputations in circumstances where an I am provoked to make a few remarks by things that amputation might be desirable for the patient? other hon. Members have said. I think that we all We come back to the perennial dilemma of many of recognise that diabetes is a major problem. Rates are our debates, particularly on specialist conditions, in increasing—it is almost a worldwide epidemic—and it that we can identify good practice—we can see it, and is a killer, linked to a series of other sorts of organ we miss it when it does not occur—but the national 91WH Diabetes9 JANUARY 2013 Diabetes 92WH

[John Pugh] The hon. Member for Strangford carefully considers what he eats in the Tea Room—I have watched him health service has never successfully found the secret of carefully as we line up to get our lunches. When we go spreading good practice fast enough, which is happening to the Tea Room to get a cup of tea before Prime again with diabetes. Minister’s questions, we are faced with Club biscuits, Kit Kats and every sweet thing that can possibly be found. I do not know what the English equivalent of a 10.22 am bun worry is, but it is there for us in the Tea Room. Let us start in this House by ensuring that the food available Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to is acceptable. follow the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh). I am tempted just to say that I agree with everything that I also praise my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney everyone has said and then to sit down, but this would North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) for the work not be Parliament if we were able to do that, so I will that she and the Labour Front-Bench team have done briefly contribute to the debate. on the proposals not for a tax, which was the subject of my ten-minute rule Bill, but for a reduction in the sugar I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Torbay and salt content of foods, as announced by the shadow (Mr Sanders), who has dedicated his life in Parliament Secretary of State. That is a good thing and goes some to addressing diabetes. Obviously, because he has type 1 way towards what Mayor Bloomberg is doing in New diabetes, he has become the Commons expert on such York. Actually, the proposal goes further—a tax was matters, and I pay tribute to him for what he has done not proposed because, of course, Denmark introduced as chair of the all-party group on diabetes and for all his a fat tax but had to withdraw it because of lobbying other work on diabetes. from the food industry—by showing the need to do I come to debates on diabetes as a type 2 sufferer full something now. The Secretary of State was on television of optimism, because I want to hear about what other on Sunday, and he agrees with the principles behind the people are doing, but I hear about blindness, amputations, proposal, although he does not support the idea of stroke and death, and I feel extremely depressed as I go doing it through legislation. He was looking very cool, out. In this debate, hon. Members have talked about not in a suit and tie but in his cardigan, and he said, amazing ideas and good practice in their own areas. I “Let’s leave it for the industry to do on a voluntary did not know about the specialist unit in Blaenau basis.” The industry has had its chance to do something, Gwent, and I did not know what a bun worry is—I now and we need to move forward. discover that it is a feast of sweets held in Northern The Opposition are right. I know that it is in the Ireland, from which I am sure that the hon. Member for Opposition’s nature to say radical things, but they are Strangford (Jim Shannon) is kept away. The key to such right to press the Government on the proposal because debates is that we hear about good practice that we do it means that the clever civil servants and, indeed, the not hear about in other areas. clever Ministers in the Department of Health, including I pay tribute to both Front-Bench teams, because the Minister with responsibility for diabetes, will take they both understand the importance of the subject. I note and press the industry to react. Ultimately, being am sorry that I did not get diabetes earlier, because I able to express such views is important, and I support would have done better at harassing the previous Labour what the Opposition are trying to do. Government on the issue. I was told that I had diabetes I have not mentioned this so far—Members of only in 2007, and, therefore, I did not dedicate myself to Parliament usually criticise GPs for not doing enough, it in Parliament in the way that I should. I will make up and they do not do enough—but in the five or 10 minutes for that in the next few years. available when people go to their GP, there is not We have high hopes for the Minister, and not only enough time to have a diabetes test and a long chat because The Times has said that she is one of the rising about diabetes issues. The hon. Member for Gillingham stars of the new intake, which gives hope to those of us and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) specifically mentioned who have reached middle age—I am on the way down, the south Asian community—the Silver Star diabetes but she is clearly on the way up. We have confidence in charity, with which I am associated, and Diabetes UK her and the way in which she has addressed diabetes in take this seriously—because certain communities are the Department of Health: she has ensured that diabetes more susceptible to diabetes. He is right to raise that is a priority; she has asked questions of the experts, and point. However, I think we should be getting pharmacists she has brought together charities such as Diabetes to do much more. Before she died of diabetes complications, UK, Silver Star and others. She is doing what all good my mum had great faith in her local pharmacist. Ministers do, which is never to accept the status quo Pharmacists have more time to talk to people than GPs, and to ensure that the Department’s bright civil servants who are very busy. We should include them in our are using their abilities and skills to deliver what Parliament forward plans. We have not mentioned them today, but wants. we need to consider them for the future. I welcome what the Government have done to support I know that the Minister is off to India to speak at a the Change4Life initiative by backing the advertisements major conference on the issue in Chennai. We have the announced only on Monday to encourage people to best diabetes doctors in the world. I happen to have a address obesity by ensuring that they change their diet few in Leicester—Professor Azhar Farooqi, Professor and understand that, by taking responsibility, there can Kamlesh Khunti, Professor Melanie Davies—and there be a difference. I know it is in the nature of parliamentarians is also Professor Naveed Sattar in Glasgow, as well as always to blame the Government or to expect the many others. They are world-class experts, and we do Government to do more, and, yes, we do, but it is also in not use them enough. As the Minister starts on her the hands of individuals. journey—not quite without maps, because some have 93WH Diabetes9 JANUARY 2013 Diabetes 94WH been provided in this debate, and the hon. Member for with the Committee’s recommendations? Does the Torbay has one in his back pocket that he has offered to Department of Health have a plan for ensuring the successive Governments over the past 25 years—will effective implementation of the NHS health check she please use the expertise that we have? The world programme after the NHS reorganisation in April? looks to our medical profession as the best in the world. I would also like to say a word about children and young Let us engage them in the work that we do. people with diabetes. As many as one in four young people are diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. The UK has 10.31 am the highest number of children diagnosed with diabetes Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) in Europe and, sadly, the lowest number of children (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Member for Torbay attaining good diabetes control. Christine Cottrell, a (Mr Sanders) on securing this debate. I am struggling diabetes nurse specialist from Warwick, told The Daily with the aftermath of a new year flu, so I hope that my Telegraph last July: voice will hold out. “We are even getting children as young as seven with Type 2 I should declare an interest: I have been diagnosed as diabetes”. a type 2 diabetic. As always, I follow humbly in the It is an important public health issue, and the prognosis footsteps of my right hon. Friend the Member for is not good: Leicester East (Keith Vaz); I have spent 25 years doing “These children end up having heart attacks, or losing a limb, that. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on or their sight, in their 30s and 40s.” behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition about diabetes, one I know that it is difficult in a Westminster Hall debate of the leading health threats in the UK. As we have to bring up issues that cut across Departments, but has heard, there are 3.7 million people in this country living the Minister had discussions with her colleagues in the with the disease. As we have also heard, it is a particular Department for Education about what support could issue for people of south Asian and African and Caribbean be offered to schoolchildren and young people to manage descent in our big cities. I am hopeful that one thing their diabetes effectively and prevent the development that will emerge from the changes to the NHS is more of early complications? What efforts are being made to local targeting, both by clinical commissioning groups ensure that both staff and pupils are aware of the and in public health, of local issues and local demographics. nature of diabetic epileptic attacks, which can take We cannot engage with diabetes unless we also engage place in schools, and the best way to assist sufferers in with local specifics in our cities and regions. an emergency? As we have heard, diabetes costs the NHS one tenth of its budget—more than £10 billion a year. We have What steps are the Government taking to increase heard in detail about foot care and amputations, but the the number of people not previously diagnosed with general problem is that diabetes is a gateway condition diabetes who receive diabetes testing? What was said to hypertension, stroke, kidney problems and amputations, earlier about the role of pharmacists was an interesting leading to early death. I was struck by the figure given suggestion. Do the Government have a plan in place to by my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent make the public aware of the symptoms of diabetes (Nick Smith) of 23 amputations in Blaenau Gwent. It sufferers? Are there any plans for a nationwide public makes one stop to think about the human reality of awareness campaign? On prevention, we know that the diabetes in communities. new NHS commissioning board will be mandated to prevent diabetes. I know that it is perhaps not reasonable The fact that diabetes is a gateway condition makes to say that GPs do not perform things that are not early diagnosis and engagement so important. It is targeted exactly as well as things that are, but is the important to be mindful of the new NHS architecture. Department considering introducing diabetes testing It is not just a question of asking Ministers to do more; targets for GPs? we must also take the debate to a local level, with CCGs and directors of public health, because healthy living The Public Accounts Committee inquiry to which I issues will fall to directors of public health and local referred earlier heard that out of 20 trusts that needed authorities, rather than Government, to deliver. We can to improve their diabetes care, only three accepted the also look to local authorities that have been innovative offered help. That is not reassuring. How can the Minister about healthy living issues by offering free swimming ensure that care through health providers meets the lessons and so on. targets set by the Secretary of State? As clinical We have heard about the basic health service treatments commissioning groups and directors of public health and checks that people should have. The Minister will take over some of those responsibilities, what can the be aware that the Public Accounts Committee’s report Department do to ensure that diabetes is on their agenda? was critical of the management of adult diabetic services On some of the more general issues around diet and in the NHS. The report said that every year, 24,000 people healthy eating, although diabetes management, foot with diabetes die simply because their disease has not care and preventing diabetes from becoming a gateway been effectively managed. That is not a satisfactory to even more serious conditions are important, the most figure in the 21st century for one of the world’s leading important thing that we can do in medical and public economies. Although people now know what needs to health terms is consider diet and healthy eating and be done for people with diabetes, the Public Accounts other prevention matters, particularly for young people. Committee found that progress in delivering the Most experts agree that the excessive consumption of recommended standards of care and achieving treatment sugar is a factor in both obesity and diabetes. Increasingly, targets has been depressingly poor. people are saying that sugar is addictive. What is the Department’s response to the Public Colleagues have mentioned some important things to Accounts Committee’s report? What can the Minister engage with in terms of policy, such as minimum pricing tell us about improvements in policy and service in line for alcohol, about which the Government are consulting 95WH Diabetes9 JANUARY 2013 Diabetes 96WH

[Ms Diane Abbott] concerns and, as ever, ideas. My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay makes a good point about how we can and which is supported by Opposition Members. We ensure that these improvements are delivered locally. suggest looking at the sugar composition of some foods, I pay tribute not only to the work of Silver Star, but particularly those targeted at children. Most parents to Diabetes UK, which must be an outstanding charity, want to do their best, and I hope that the advertising because such was its ability to campaign on this issue campaign launched by the Minister will shed some light that it persuaded Mr Paul Dawson, a constituent of on such issues for parents. However, how many parents mine who has suffered from diabetes 1 for many years, know that Coco Pops are one third sugar? People joke to visit me on Friday. I thought that that was just a about it, but although most parents would not sit their remarkable coincidence, but he told me that Diabetes child down to breakfast and put a bar of chocolate in UK suggested that he visit me. The serious point is that front of them, they will give them a bowl of Frosties or he raised concerns, as a sufferer of diabetes 1, that I had some children’s cereal, which can have a higher proportion heard at the APPG, so I had already taken up many of of sugar than a bar of chocolate. Opposition Members those, notably what seems to be a rationing of strips. are saying that we need to consider legislating to ensure Frankly, this is bonkers; people with diabetes who use that the proportion of sugar in some foods that are strips need to use them and often need to use many in a directly targeted at children can be brought down. day. I am not happy if there is any form of rationing of I am glad to advance Her Majesty’s Opposition’s those strips. I have already met officers in the Department position on diabetes. I congratulate the Government on and inquiries are being made of primary care trusts, what they have done up until now, but there is more to and beyond. Mr Dawson also told me about the great be done, both in locking in a concern for diabetes advances, which I have already alluded to, that have locally when clinical commissioning groups and directors been made in medicine, which my hon. Friend the of public health take up their new responsibilities and Member for Southport and others have mentioned. dealing with the broader issues of healthy eating and a I have been asked a number of questions and I healthy lifestyle and the preponderance of sugar in cannot answer them all in the short time available, but modern processed food. I undertake to answer every question in letters.

Ms Abbott: The issue of rationing strips has been 10.41 am brought to my attention. What would the Minister The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health suggest that people do if their general practitioner is (Anna Soubry): It is a pleasure, as ever, to serve under attempting to ration strips? your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) for Anna Soubry: I am concerned about it. It is unacceptable. securing this debate and to every hon. Member who has I have already held a meeting with my officials and they spoken. As you may have gathered, Mr Crausby—and are making further inquiries. I discussed with Mr Dawson as those hon. Members who have heard or will hear or what was happening locally in CCGs, which is where read about the debate will gather—this is a huge topic. this will make a difference, when we see the power of We could have had a 90-minute debate simply on diabetes our doctors and other health professionals to commission 1 and diabetes 2. We could have other debates about the services, and the power and influence that patients and causes of diabetes 2. I am the first to put my hands up sufferers of diabetes will have. I am told that NHS and admit that, until I was lucky and fortunate enough Diabetes has now identified a diabetic lead in every to be appointed last September to the position that I CCG. There is an opportunity, through the reforms, to hold, I did not know a great deal about diabetes, but, ensure that we now deliver locally as we should. All goodness me, I have learned a great deal in the months hon. Members who have contributed to this debate have since my appointment. I thank the all-party group on identified a failure in respect of good outcomes and diabetes, chaired by my hon. Friend, for all the great good practice throughout the NHS, right through to work that it does. I paid the APPG a flying visit and local level. That needs to be, and is being, addressed as a learned a lot; a number of matters were raised with me matter of urgency. that caused me great concern. I have been alerted to problems with glucose metres I hope that you will forgive me, Mr Crausby, if this and pumps—various new advances in technology. Some sounds like a mutual admiration society, because in of this excites me. However, I am still concerned if there many ways it is. The right hon. Member for Leicester is not the availability that there should be, right across East (Keith Vaz) and I go back many years. I pay tribute the NHS, notably for all sufferers of diabetes 1. to him for all the work that he has done. I know about his Silver Star charity and I look forward to its coming Jim Shannon: It is not just about the provision of the to Beeston in my constituency and to the van doing insulin pumps; it is also about training. There are two some work there. That highlights one thing that has facets to that. come out of this debate and goes to the heart of the Government’s reforms of the NHS: the remarkable Anna Soubry: Indeed. I was going to end this part of work that can be done and now has to be done locally to my speech by saying that my constituent, Mr Dawson, ensure that we improve the diagnoses and treatments—in paid tribute to what he described as his brilliant diabetic addition to other matters raised by hon. Members—because nurse at the Queen’s medical centre in Nottingham. He it is fair to say that, although many localities share highlighted, as the hon. Gentleman has done, that it is common themes, this disease will be more prevalent in all well and good having wonderful, great technology, certain communities, even down to ward level. My hon. but if people have access to it they need, critically, the Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) raises support to be able to use it themselves. We must ensure 97WH Diabetes9 JANUARY 2013 Diabetes 98WH that they have the highest-quality support, not just from diabetes care, including the response to the Public Accounts their GPs, but from diabetic nurses and others who are Committee report, the work undertaken on diabetes as trained and specialise in this condition. a long-term condition and the cardiovascular disease Diabetes is common and is increasing, as hon. Members outcome strategy. have mentioned. It is estimated that, by 2025, 4 million We must ensure that people get an early diagnosis. I people will have diabetes. must commend again the work of Diabetes UK. Other hon. Members have mentioned how it is raising awareness Nick Smith: What are the Minister’s views of Mayor of the early signs and symptoms of diabetes with its Bloomberg’s plan in New York to ban super-sized soft latest campaign on the 4 Ts, which has my full support. drinks in cinemas? Does she agree that that could be a One in every two people diagnosed with diabetes already good symbolic action that would help bring down diabetes? has complications. I thank the hon. Members for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) and for Blaenau Gwent Anna Soubry: It could be, but I make it clear, as I said (Nick Smith) for their contributions. I will not be able on Monday in various media interviews, that at the to answer their points specifically in my speech, but I moment the responsibility deal is working, which is why hear what they say and will write to them if necessary we have some of the lowest salt levels in the world. to answer their questions. I am acutely aware of the Other countries are coming to us to find out how we complications and the devastating effects that those can have achieved that by working with industry, retailers have on people’s lives. and manufacturers to reduce salt levels. On the reduction of trans fats, under 1% of our food now has trans fats Mr Sanders: Can the Minister respond to the important in it. Again, we have done that by working with the point made by the right hon. Member for Leicester East manufacturers and retailers. (Keith Vaz) about pharmacists? Some private pharmacy My natural inclination is against legislation, and I say groups offer diabetes tests, which other pharmacies that as an old lawyer. At the moment, I am confident should be encouraged to do. I hope that we can see the that the responsibility deal is delivering in the way that I roll-out of more collaborative working between the want it to. I make it clear that, if there is a need to private sector and the health service in order to identify introduce legislation, we will not hesitate to do that. I people with diabetes, so that they start to get treated. am almost firing a warning shot across the bows of the retailers and food manufacturers and saying, “Unless Anna Soubry: I am grateful for that intervention not you get your house in order and accept responsibility, only because I was coughing but, most importantly, we will not hesitate to introduce legislation or regulation, because I was going to mention that subject only in because we know that we in this country have an passing. I will now expand on that a little. I absolutely unacceptable rise in obesity, to levels that are second agree with the points of my hon. Friend and the right only to those in America.” I will therefore consider hon. Member for Leicester East about the importance everything. I always have an open mind. I am currently of pharmacies. They are important for so much of the content, however, that the responsibility deal is delivering, NHS’s work, but here is a good example of where we but it has a great deal more to do. I hope that those who can link them in far more with delivering the successes, are signed up to the calorie reduction scheme later this outcomes and diagnoses that we need so desperately. month will encourage more manufacturers and retailers There is absolutely a role for pharmacies, and I look to sign up to the responsibility deal on calories. I want forward to clinical commissioning groups, which are to ensure that we make some real, serious and tangible already thinking in new ways about how to deliver progress. better health care at a local level and working in exciting Ultimately, however, as the right hon. Member for and imaginative ways, collaborating with pharmacies Leicester East and the hon. Member for Strangford far more than has been done before. It is a good point, (Jim Shannon) identified, the responsibility is ours. and I hope to see more action on it. Nobody forces us to eat the sugar buns or whatever it When people get a diagnosis, we need to ensure they may be. When we go into the Tea Room and we are are managed according to the latest clinical guidelines. faced with the choice between fruit or a piece of cake, The quality and outcomes framework, introduced in my natural inclination might be for a piece of cake, 2003-04, has incentivised primary care to perform the especially since I have developed a sweeter tooth as I nine care processes for people with diabetes, but we have got older and since I have stopped smoking. We all know that there are difficulties—I have given the figures— make the choice whether to eat a piece of cake. The and not enough people are receiving all nine. The ultimate responsibility lies with us as individuals and as National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence parents, but I always have an open mind. has been asked to review the quality and outcomes Diabetes is a growing problem and a major factor in framework and diabetes indicators, and we await its premature mortality with an estimated 24,000 avoidable response and findings. deaths a year—10% of deaths annually are in people Last year, the National Audit Office reviewed the with diabetes. A variation exists in the delivery of the management of adult diabetes services in the NHS. nine care processes, with a range of 15.9% to 71.2% While that highlighted the progress made over the past achievement across PCTs, which is not acceptable. However, 10 years, it also highlighted the unwarranted variation 75% of diabetes sufferers receive eight out of the nine that exists across the NHS and the significant challenges care processes, which is a huge improvement. In 2003-04, that we face over the next 10 years. There is no excuse only 7% of sufferers received all nine care processes. In for poor diabetes care. No one with diabetes should lose 2010-11, that figure was at 54.3%, but there is much a leg or their vision if it can be prevented. We know more to be done. In the coming months, several documents what needs to be done and we need to ensure that we will be published to guide the NHS in delivering improved meet the challenge head on. 99WH Diabetes 9 JANUARY 2013 100WH

[Anna Soubry] Local Government (Leadership) The prime objective of the NHS Commissioning Board will be to drive improvement in the quality of 11 am NHS services, and we will hold it to account for that through the NHS mandate, which makes it clear that we John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): It is a pleasure, expect to see significant improvement in the outcomes, Mr Crausby, to serve under your chairmanship today. I diagnosis and treatment of diabetes. In addition, through am delighted to have the opportunity to bring to the the NHS outcomes framework, we will be able to track attention of the Chamber leadership in local government the overall progress of the NHS on delivering improved and to debate it. My hon. Friend the Member for health and outcomes. Diabetes is relevant to all five Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) will want to contribute. A domains in the outcomes framework, so when work debate on leadership in councils could last for days. programmes are developed it is important to consider Many people will have many different views on leadership, diabetes and how optimising care can deliver improvements. good and bad, and on what is happening in councils My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay asked specifically today. However, the purpose of the debate is to consider about NHS Diabetes and whether it will continue to one narrow point: leadership in councils. play a central role. NHS Diabetes is one of six current When I became an MP in 2010, I visited organisations improvement organisations that are being replaced in my constituency, as did many of my colleagues by the new NHS improvement body in the NHS in their constituencies. Some of those organisations Commissioning Board. In the overall context of what I are in the private sector, and many are large and small have said, I hope that he will take comfort, will believe businesses. The key issue that struck me, having visited and be sure that diabetes is something that the NHS both private and public sector organisations and institutions, Commissioning Board has put much higher up its list of was leadership and management. My general observation priorities. It is aware that much more needs to be done was that if an organisation has one or the other—leadership and is the ultimate driver of all of that. or management—it can function reasonably well. If it Many hon. Members have mentioned diabetes 2, has neither, clearly it is likely to run into difficulties. If which is largely, but not always, a preventable disease. I an organisation, whether in the public or private sector, have already paid tribute to those hon. Members who has both, it tends to be a great success, and I am aware have raised the issue both in their local communities of those in my constituency that have good leadership and nationally. and good management, and are doing a terrific job. I want to end my comments by discussing an Some local businesses are successful, and some public undoubtedly serious problem in our society, which is organisations are able and perform well. However, there that almost all of us eat too much. We are overweight. is a subtle difference between the private and public Some 60% of adults are either overweight or obese. As a sectors. If private sector organisations do not have good society, we find ourselves in a situation where one third management and leadership, they run into difficulty of our 11-year-olds—our year 6 pupils—are either and will either go bust or be taken over by another overweight or obese when they leave primary school. organisation. The difficulty is that, if they cannot be Those figures should truly shock each and every one of suddenly taken over or cannot go bust, there is a danger us, and something can be done about the problem. We that they may become weak and ineffective. The importance can all take responsibility for how we feed our children of leadership and management should not be and for our own lives and diets and what we eat and underestimated, and the difficulty for Governments of drink. The Government, however, can also do things, all political persuasions is how to deal with underperforming especially at a local level. When health and wellbeing public bodies. Obvious examples are schools and hospitals. boards identify the needs of their communities, if it is How can they be dealt with when they begin to fail not a unitary authority, they can work with borough because they have not been provided with correct leadership councils. or good management? That is an issue for all Governments. My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay made a good A key organisation that has an important bearing in point about leisure services. We are already seeing evidence all our constituencies is local government. Local authorities in shadow form. In my constituency, GPs are issuing are subtly different from other public sector organisations prescriptions for activity, and the borough council is because they are elected, and the beauty of elections is offering real assistance. It is almost as if there are no that they provide new leadership and new emphasis and excuses not to go along to the various leisure centres direction. A mechanism exists for change. and take up a class or gentle exercise. We even have walking football in Broxtowe. The point of all this is Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): I thank my hon. that local authorities are beginning to knit together all Friend for securing this important debate. Does he the various services to ensure that we all live longer, agree that, in these difficult economic times, strong healthier and happier lives. The ultimate responsibility leadership is vital in local government, and will he join is ours, but local and national Government can do so me in congratulating Adrian Hardman, leader of much. It is all coming down to a local level. When we Worcestershire county council, which was ranked the see the roll-out in the spring, I am confident that we will third highest performing council in the country, despite see great progress. being the third lowest funded?

John Stevenson: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention. I agree that that is a prime example of good leadership in local government, and I will touch on that. 101WH Local Government (Leadership)9 JANUARY 2013 Local Government (Leadership) 102WH

Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I them could name either, but if the same questions were congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important asked in London and some other parts of the country debate. He has raised the matter of strong leadership in with elected mayors, I suspect that at least a good many debates, and I also congratulate him on that. proportion could name that person. Does he agree that unitary authorities, which have a Elected mayors provide visible and clear leadership, cabinet-style model of leadership, provide the best form which is transparent and accountable. People know of local government in terms of value for money? who is in charge and responsible for local affairs. They Medway council, on which I still serve—I was a cabinet have a four-year mandate, and they have the opportunity member—is led by Councillor Chambers and has been to carry out their manifesto commitments and to implement rated as providing good value for services. policy. They also provide democratic accountability, which is important. There are one-party councils throughout John Stevenson: My hon. Friend raises an interesting the country, and the introduction of an elected mayor point, and we could have a separate debate on unitary would add a different dynamism to such areas. Independents councils alone. For the record, I wholeheartedly agree could be elected, and a party that will never be in that unitary councils are the correct direction for local control of a council would have a chance to have their government, and I will certainly advocate that when I political views expressed through the elected mayor. can. The Government have taken a top-down approach to Leadership and management in councils are central date. After the election, they were committed to the to the economic success not only of individual communities introduction of elected mayors in 12 of our largest and local authorities, but of the wider economy and the cities. From my perspective, I was very disappointed whole country. They are also important for the provision that they were rejected in nine of the areas where there of efficient and well-delivered services, which may range was a referendum. Nevertheless, out of those 12 large from collecting waste to social care. We have a tendency cities, three have gone down the road of having an in this country to underestimate the importance of local elected mayor. That is a 25% success rate. My view, government. It is extremely important and should play therefore, is that we should try a bottom-up approach, a much bigger role in our national affairs. It is commonly by encouraging local communities to take the initiative, accepted, probably across the political spectrum, that rather than imposing it on them. the country is far too centralised. Direction and instructions Referendums have been held up and down the country come from the centre and tell local government what it for elected mayors, promoted by local initiatives. The should do. success rate has again been around 25%. Some people I accept that the Government have tried to redress the would say that that is a poor result and that the policy is balance. I fully support what they are doing, and I a failure, but we have to look at the nature of referendums. would encourage them to go further. I give them credit As a general rule in referendums, people tend to stay for the work that they have done, and I fully support with the status quo. We see that time and again in this them in their direction of travel. However, there are country, and certainly in other parts of the world. There cultural barriers. At the centre, Whitehall thinks it is an inherent conservatism within the electorate to knows best, and likes to tell local authorities so. In turn, remain with what they know, rather than taking on there is a failing at town hall level. Town halls are not something different. used to taking the initiative or providing distinct local Local referendums have been hindered to a large leadership. That should change, which is why I am extent—dare I say?—by the self-interest of local councillors concentrating on local leadership. and local organisations, such as councils themselves, The present regime includes many able and effective which have been reluctant to see elected mayors being leaders—my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch introduced. I believe, however, that support for them is (Karen Lumley) indicated that she has an able and widespread and much deeper than we think. Yesterday, effective county council leader—but we must accept I was at a meeting with Lord Heseltine, interestingly that there are many ineffective councils with poor leadership enough, who is not only a big enthusiast of unitary and management, although some have difficulties because authorities, but a strong supporter of elected mayors. they must often deal with the machinations of local He in turn has been greatly supported by Lord Adonis, politics. Some parts of the country are effectively a who is also a great fan and supporter of them. Both one-party state. That may not be healthy for democracy, believe that elected mayors are the future drivers of and it creates problems because of internal squabbles success in local government. within political parties. In hung councils, parties compete How will we achieve that bottom-up approach? We for political leadership, and the most able people often could look at the legislation. At present, legislation lays do not lead the council because of inter-party debates out certain criteria before the role of a mayor can come and tensions. We cannot get away from the fact that into effect. As everyone will know, there is a petition, some places have poor-quality councillors, and that the then a referendum, and only on the success of a referendum job does not attract the most able people. That is an is the structure changed. The key for any area is getting issue for us all across the political spectrum. a valid petition to initiate such a referendum. At present, What are the solutions? I believe that we should have the requirement is 5% of the electorate, which is a more elected mayors. Do people know who their council barrier that, in my view, is far too high. To take my area leader is? I went along to a sixth-form school in my as an example, for Carlisle district council, a petition constituency and talked to 50 or 60 able students who requires 4,500 signatures, while 20,000 signatures are were all interested in local affairs. My first question was required for Cumbria county council. I suspect that the whether any of them could name their local council figures would be much higher in other areas, as ours is leader. My second question was whether any of them sparsely populated. I genuinely believe that the number could name their county council leader. Not one of is prohibitively high—5% is far too high. 103WH Local Government (Leadership)9 JANUARY 2013 Local Government (Leadership) 104WH

[John Stevenson] correct, 4,000 would be needed for the county council. It would then become entirely feasible and people would What is the goal? I would like the leadership of local go out and actively seek signatures. That is my first authorities to become more open, more accountable question for the Minister. and far more dynamic. They should be able to provide Secondly, does the Minister agree with extending the innovation, with new ideas, and bring in a real period of period that a petitioner who is campaigning for this can local government, by taking the lead and producing use the signatures on the petition from one year to two political leaders who are known, respected and make a years? At present, such a person has to use signatures contribution to their local areas. from people who support the petition within a 12-month period. That may seem an awfully long time, but if Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): The hon. someone is working full time and doing this on an ad Gentleman has concentrated so far on local political hoc basis, time passes. To get the requisite number of leadership, making comments that apply to all political signatures can take time, and in the example of Carlisle, parties, and I very much endorse some of what has been even if the figure drops to 800, it is still a time-consuming said. However, the flipside is that, over the past few business. Will the Minister consider increasing the period years, we have seen a contraction in the size of local to two years? government, especially smaller district and borough Finally, in this age of modern technology, it would councils, and with that, we have experienced highly seem eminently sensible—indeed, people would expect skilled chief executives leaving the sector. Does the hon. it—for petitions to be online. At present, there has to be Gentleman agree that that leadership gap has seen a physical signature on a piece of paper. We have lots of officers over-promoted, which has been to the detriment ways of dealing with modern communications and how of council tax payers and the standard of service that we produce petitions. Doing them online would be an they receive? I agree that we should move towards eminently sensible solution, and it would make it easier unitary authorities, but it is not a one-horse race. We for people who want to push forward a petition to need both components, with really good, on-the-ball achieve the requisite numbers. chief executives. I would probably say that I agree that unitary authorities are the way to go, but with ever I might be wrong, but I believe that much of that smaller services and good people moving, just filling the could be dealt with by delegated legislation, and I hope gap will not do. that the Minister will confirm whether that is the case. I genuinely think that this is an opportunity to transform local leadership in local councils. In turn, I believe that John Stevenson: The hon. Lady makes a very good it would transform the performance of local councils, point. I go back to my initial comments when I mentioned benefiting local communities and the country at large. leadership and management, because the two go hand It would help growth in our communities, and I believe in hand to a certain extent. With local authorities or that it would help to vindicate the Government’s localism any organisation, whether private or public, if the two agenda. I look forward to the Minister’s response. go together, the organisation ends up being fantastic. When there is only one, it can work, but it is more Mr David Crausby (in the Chair): I will allow one problematic. When there is neither, it is a problem. short contribution before the Minister responds. Rosie Cooper: I wonder whether the chief executive mentioned by the hon. Member for Redditch (Karen 11.17 am Lumley) would like a free transfer. Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Thank you, Mr Crausby. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member John Stevenson: What the hon. Lady said is absolutely for Carlisle (John Stevenson) on securing the debate. right, and I am concentrating principally today on I served as a councillor for 26 years, with 14 of those leadership and political leadership. However, we could on a district authority, which was then transformed into have a debate just on the management—let alone the a unitary authority. I entirely concur with previous leadership and the management—at a future date. comments that unitary authorities are the way forward, My view is that elected mayors are the way to help and I would like to see the Government make more achieve real leadership in local government. We should positive moves in the right direction. I also entirely let communities up and down the country decide whether agree that it is desirable for those authorities to be led an elected mayor is right for them, and we should make by an elected mayor. Mayoral positions attract those it easier to allow petitions to succeed. Does the Minister who have not previously been drawn into local politics. agree that leadership is vital to the success of councils? That is good, because it enlarges the pool of talent that Does he support, as the Prime Minister does, the idea is available, and it provides necessary links between and concept of elected mayors, and would he like to see business and politics. In the short time available, I want them spread across the country? Would he assist in to add one or two points to what my hon. Friend has making it easier to initiate such referendums? said. My real question for the Minister is how we achieve In Lord Heseltine’s excellent report, he talks considerably that. I would like—I am interested to hear his comments—a about a sense of place and local identities. I know that reduction in the required percentage of local people the Government, like the previous Administration, are who need to sign the petition from 5% to 1%. The drawn to city regions and the boost to a local economy previous Government contemplated lowering the threshold. that they can give, and they are even, I believe, considering Going back to my example of Carlisle, if the threshold the possibility of elected mayors for those regions. were reduced to 1%, only 800 signatures would be Although I support that, the city region itself must have required for the district council, and if I get my maths a sense of place. My area of Humberside most certainly 105WH Local Government (Leadership)9 JANUARY 2013 Local Government (Leadership) 106WH does not. I, and many others, spent 20 years of our underestimate that, and we must congratulate those political lives fighting the previously imposed county of leaders throughout the country who put so much time Humberside. There must be a clear sense of identity. and effort into their communities. Actually, that applies We can move on from the lost mayoral referendums to all councillors, but I am thinking particularly of the of last year. I hope that areas such as my own in leaders who step to the forefront, take that leadership north-east Lincolnshire can steal a march on the cities seriously and move their communities forward. Whether that rejected mayors by grasping the nettle, moving they are mayors or just elected leaders, they do all our forward and going for an elected mayor themselves. communities and our country a great service. That is why I very much support my hon. Friend’s Cities are a good example of where the Government comments that we must bypass local councils and local are recognising this leadership. Our belief in strong councillors, who are a blockade to that; for various local leadership has meant that it is one of the asks for reasons, they oppose it. Therefore, I would very much the city deals. We have made it clear that if cities want support moves to reduce the threshold and give local significant new powers and funding streams, they need activists and local people opportunities to move forward to demonstrate clear, strong, accountable leadership. in that direction. Cities with directly elected mayors have clearly shown that. 11.20 am Several hon. Members have spoken in favour of mayors. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle has regularly Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): I made comments about directly elected mayors. Particularly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle in the case of single-tier authorities, they can be a (John Stevenson) on securing the debate and I am hugely beneficial step forward, with real power and real grateful to him for giving us the opportunity to air a ability to deliver on the ground for their communities. I hugely important issue. I join colleagues who have share my hon. Friend’s view—I can answer that question congratulated him not just on today’s debate, but on the directly—that it would be good to see more of them way he has brought up the topic over the past few years. around the country. I am interested in looking at how It is a key issue. He is right about that. Effective local we can motivate people and encourage more of that to leadership is vital and possibly more important today happen. I shall come to my hon. Friend’s three specific than it has ever been. Up and down the country, areas asks in a moment. face huge challenges in local government. Service delivery is becoming increasingly complex. An ageing population I am pleased that we are at one on this particular presents areas with real challenges. Efficiency savings issue. Directly elected mayors can and generally do are required. Partnership working needs good, strong, provide good, strong, clear and visible local leadership. clear leadership. Another challenge involves community My hon. Friend highlighted that very well in his description engagement, particularly now that we are in a social of the meeting at the school. He makes a very strong media-led environment. I shall come back in a few point about the accountability of the role of mayor. A moments to my hon. Friend’s comments on digital directly elected mayor does seem to have recognition in issues. a community that goes beyond that of an elected councillor. There is, therefore, increased—clear—accountability.People We face real challenges, particularly in ensuring economic understand exactly who is in charge, who is making the growth. We believe that the best way to do that is for it decisions, who is accountable. That transparency fits to be driven locally. The key to dealing with those perfectly with the localism agenda with which we are challenges comes from our towns and cities. It is about moving forward. strong, inspirational leadership that can take the challenges on, and not just see them as challenges but make them There is a very strong case on this issue. Research into opportunities. undertaken in 2005 shows that the democratic mandate I disagree to an extent with the comments of the hon. provided by directly elected mayors has Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) about the “provided a basis for a stronger, more proactive style of leadership leadership gap when we lose chief executives. We need than other models.” to be clear that in some areas and particularly some small districts, the days of big, expensive, silo management We have seen how mayors around the world have teams are gone. Just financially, they are history. People reinvigorated their cities. I am thinking of places such have to work together and share good chief executives as Frankfurt, New York and Lyon. That has also been to get the good management that has been commented the case on our own doorstep, in London. The mayors—the on. I agree with the hon. Lady that good political office holders—become very well known. That highlights leadership, with good management, gives that magic again the clear accountability and understanding of option, but I have to make it clear that my view is very who is responsible—who is in charge. The Mayor much that the leadership of a council for an area should of London, particularly, I would say, over the past four come from the political leaders. If we go down the road years, has transformed the city. In the 12 years of its of saying that a chief executive is part of the leadership, existence, the London mayoral office has been hailed that can only be because our councillors are not doing across the world for its influence in raising the profile of their job. Our councillors are there to make decisions, to the capital and for securing major projects that the city deliver, to lead and to represent their community. Our needs, from Crossrail to the Olympic games. officers are there to give good advice and to implement Of course, in addition to the Mayor of London, we the decisions made by councillors. now have, as my hon. Friend said, new mayors in three The comment about directly elected mayors, which I of our biggest cities: Leicester, Liverpool and, most will come to in a second, highlights the importance of recently, Bristol; I have already met the mayor of Bristol leadership from the political leaders. We must never a few times. In our “Mid-Term Review”, published on 107WH Local Government (Leadership)9 JANUARY 2013 Local Government (Leadership) 108WH

[Brandon Lewis] My hon. Friend’s second query was about the time frame for collecting signatures. Again, I am willing to Monday, hon. Members have seen that we are proud to look at that, but I think that it goes in tandem with record that we have enabled the people of those cities point one, in that I suspect that if we were looking at a to join London in choosing a directly elected mayor. lower threshold, there would be less need to expand the My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle has outlined time frame. If we do not lower the threshold, there is a a number of measures that he feels would make it easier stronger argument for widening the time frame. It is for communities to bring about mayoral governance in probably one or the other. We can consider those points their area and to see that happen from the local community in tandem. As I said, I shall work with my hon. Friend up, rather than central Government deciding that an on that. area should have a referendum. I am attracted to any With regard to e-petitions, I can be slightly more measures that will allow areas to adopt good, strong, direct and positive, in that I think my hon. Friend effective leadership, which an elected mayor can provide makes a very good point. I think that we are moving and which is vital to their success. towards those days when far more things will be, whether Let me deal with my hon. Friend’s three points directly. we like it or not, done online. We certainly should be The first concerns the petition for governance and the looking at how we can move forward with that. The idea of a change in the threshold. He is right to say that coalition’s e-petition website has already had 17 million we can change that by amending existing secondary visits, with a total of 36,000 petitions submitted and legislation, so it is not difficult to do. I shall do some almost 6.5 million signatures. That equates to roughly further work and invite my hon. Friend to come and 12 people signing up every minute since it came into have a conversation with the Department about that. I force. I support my hon. Friend’s suggestion of allowing am cautious about it, but I am open-minded. Let me electors to support a petition online, and we can look at explain why I feel some caution about it. We want to how we deliver that—how we can make it possible. It make it easy for people, when there is a genuine need was a very good point that we should look to move with. and desire in a community to see clear accountable I agree with my hon. Friend that leadership in a local leadership, to move forward and have a vote for it. We community is vital. We should give great credit to the also need to avoid small interested parties being able leaders who provide that around the country for their too easily to get something that does not have full communities. They do a great job, as do all councillors community support. There is a balance to find on the who go out and work for their communities. Where we size—the proposal is to move from 5% to 1%—and the can move forward to make that more accountable and implication that that would have in different areas. As more transparent and have clear accountability through my hon. Friend says, having to find 20,000 votes is directly elected mayors, and where that would be practical different from having to find 1,000 votes. That depends for communities and is something that they want, it on whether it is happening at the level of a small could be a very good move forward for them. I am authority, county level or whatever it happens to be. happy to work with my hon. Friend to see whether we There is a bit of work to do on that. I am happy to look can deliver that to strengthen our democracy and our at it, but I shall work with my hon. Friend to see local communities. whether we can come up with something that might deliver what he wants without going too far and getting 11.29 am the wrong result in the wrong areas. Sitting suspended. 109WH 9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 110WH

Living Wage week out, such companies get an enormous subsidy to help with one of their major overheads—staffing costs. That is because many employees—often the majority—in these large and successful companies are paid only the [MRS ANNE MAIN in the Chair] minimum wage, and because the current minimum wage is not a living wage, nearly everyone on it has to claim 2.30 pm tax credits to be able to make ends meet. Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): It is The number of working families receiving tax credits very welcome to be serving under your chairmanship, to top up their meagre incomes has risen by 50% since Mrs Main. I think that this is the first time that I have 2003. A Joseph Rowntree Foundation report estimates done so. I thank everyone for attending what I believe is that 3.3 million people now have to claim tax credits to a timely debate. top up their wages because they are on the minimum The campaign for the introduction of a living wage wage. Those tax credits are funded by the Government—by unites many organisations, charities and people in pursuit the taxpayer. That means that the public purse has to of social justice. There is a clear moral case for a living subsidise the low-paid employees of many of our household wage: as a society, we should ensure that the minimum names so that they make their high profits rather than wage that workers are paid allows them to lead a decent pay their workers a decent wage. life, a life with dignity, and does not require people to have, as some in my constituency do, two or three jobs Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): My hon. Friend to try to make ends meet, leaving them no time for their is making a fantastic point. She will recognise also that children or the rest of their family, or to contribute in there are some supermarkets where the CEO is on any other way to society. 500 times more than the individual on the shop floor. At the same time, there is increasing recognition of That must be unacceptable if they are not paying a the business benefits that being a living wage employer living wage and are expecting the state in effect to pick can bring. Many living wage employers see it as almost up the bill. a fair trade mark: it marks them out as separate from other employers and indicates that they are employers of choice. I think that that is very welcome. A living Teresa Pearce: I thank my right hon. Friend for his wage employer also attracts better-quality staff and intervention; I totally agree. When we compare the top gains a reputation for good corporate social responsibility. and the bottom level of pay, there is often a massive Paying the living wage also reduces absenteeism and difference. We need to look at getting that balance right. staff turnover. It is about giving workers the respect and If a company is making that sort of profit, it is inexcusable the pay that they deserve for the work that they do. for it not to pay a decent wage and for the taxpayer to have to subsidise its wage bill. I am pleased to say that many people are now paying the living wage, including some councils, such I am not against tax credits, but I think that more as Lewisham council and Birmingham city council, people need to understand that in many sectors the and private sector employers, such as Aviva and my old taxpayer is subsidising the wage bill of some of the employer, PricewaterhouseCoopers, as well as KPMG. biggest employers. We need a national living wage to They have already volunteered to adopt the living wage put an end to the deeply unfair situation in which we are and, if the press reports from late last year are correct, all subsidising poverty pay and the profits of large—often three Departments are also now considering introducing global—companies. The Secretary of State for Work it. Late last year, Labour said that it was looking at and Pensions recently wrote an article about in-work making public sector contracts conditional on workers benefits in The Daily Telegraph. He was blaming Labour’s being paid at least the living wage and possibly naming payments to supplement working families’ incomes for and shaming companies that pay their workers less. the fact that the public finances are at “breaking point”. More MPs are also advertising internships that pay the Although I agree that the Government should not have living wage, which is a very welcome development, as to subsidise low wages and in effect subsidise the profits we should be leading the way on fair employment of large companies, I disagree that the solution is to cut practices. We should lead by example. I do not want to the only payment standing between many low-paid be part of an organisation that says, “Do as I say, not as workers and destitution. There have been many debates I do.” For that reason, I do not use unpaid interns and in the House, and I am sure that there will be many always pay interns at least the living wage. I am very more, about why the public finances are the way they pleased that that is now becoming the practice in the are. Is it because we have had to bail out the banks? Is it House. Those have all been welcome steps towards the Government’s politics of austerity? Is it the lack of making the living wage the norm in our labour market growth? Whatever side of the argument we are on, I and they make the debate particularly timely. think that we would all agree that it is not the fault However, there is one angle to the debate about of the worker in my local supermarket or the waitress in introducing the living wage that I think needs to be the pizza restaurant. We are not in this situation because given greater consideration and discussed. If one of the the Government intervened to prop up poverty wages. large and vastly profitable supermarket chains or fast It is not the fault of tax credits. food chains had their electricity bills paid by the taxpayer Nevertheless, there is some agreement across the parties or their advertising costs greatly subsidised by the general that the situation needs to change, even if very different public—the same general public who purchase goods in solutions are proposed. We could do as the Government their stores and from whom they make their massive plan to do and place a cap of 1% on uprating benefits profits—we would expect tabloid headlines and a massive such as working tax credits, far below predicted inflation, public outcry at the unfairness of it. However, week in, which will tip thousands more families and children 111WH Living Wage9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 112WH

[Teresa Pearce] when private companies contracted by Departments to provide services fail and have to be propped up financially into grinding poverty; or we could consider raising the to ensure that essential services are protected. Companies national minimum wage to a level at which the extensive are taking the profit without bearing the risk. That is use of working tax credits would not be necessary. hardly a free or fair market. A recent report by the Resolution Foundation and Profitable employers who say that they cannot afford the Institute for Public Policy Research estimated that to pay a living wage or who depend on cheap labour do widespread use of a living wage could save the Government not have the business model on which we can build a £2 billion a year. About £3.6 billion of the extra money recovery. We need proper, clear, informed, rational paid out in higher wages under a universal living wage discussion. The public need to understand the extent to would go straight to the Government, in the form of which such companies are helped by public funds. We extra income tax and national insurance payments, need to stop calling them wealth creators and start along with reduced spending on benefits and tax credits calling them state-subsidised industries, because that is for the lowest-paid. As some of those workers would be what they are. If we are serious about making work pay, in the public sector, their wages would cost the Government the first step is to get those making and taking the an extra £1.3 billion. However, that would still leave the profits to pay the wage bill of their own workers, who Treasury with an extra net income of £2 billion. are often the true, unsung wealth creators. The living wage should be adopted sooner rather than later as the national minimum wage. I do not think that it is too much to ask that workers at the bottom of 2.40 pm the income ladder should at least be able to make ends meet. A legal minimum living wage is necessary, because Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): It is a although campaigners have been successful in increasing pleasure to participate in this debate. I congratulate the voluntary take-up, the numbers of people affected by hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) what we are discussing are so high that they warrant on securing it. I am delighted that the Minister of State, more drastic action. About 5 million people are paid Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my less than the suggested living wage and 3 million households right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael contain at least one adult who is paid below that level. Fallon), is responding, because he and I belong—or The Institute for Fiscal Studies predicts that a further belonged—to the school that believes that it is much 1 million children will fall into relative poverty by 2020, better to leave such issues to the market than allow and that prediction was made before last night’s vote. Government intervention, let alone legislation or regulation. With a living wage, we could at least try to undo some The starting point is that, if people want to prescribe of the damage. a living wage and some employers wish to pay what they I realise that many people will object to what I am describe as a living wage, they should be free to do so in saying. They will say that I am anti-business. I am not, a free market. There is no issue. The agenda that underlies but I am anti-exploitation. If a business depends on cheap the hon. Lady bringing forward the debate is that she labour while making massive profits for its shareholders, would like the Government to specify and introduce there should be a mechanism—I do not think that it is what has been set out as a living wage. beyond the wit of man to come up with one—whereby the numbers of minimum wage jobs at a profit-making Mr Lammy: Did the hon. Gentleman advance the company are reported to Her Majesty’s Revenue and same arguments on the minimum wage when it was Customs and a levy can be charged via the tax system to introduced a few years ago? refund some of the subsidy. There is an argument for helping small firms or those that provide a necessary Mr Chope: I have consistently articulated the same public service, but I do not believe that supermarkets arguments on the minimum wage. I had the pleasure and giant retail companies, which are making billions of introducing the Employment Opportunities Bill, of pounds each year in profits, deserve or warrant state fundamental to which was the principle that people subsidy, because that is what this is. should be able to opt out of the minimum wage, thereby People will say that I am anti-jobs, but that is nonsense. increasing the number of employment opportunities. I I ask them to consider the proposition that the next have been consistent. In fact, I argue that I have probably time one of these firms issues a press release saying that been more consistent than my party in saying that in it is creating 5,000 jobs, what it really means is that it is this area we should allow individuals and the marketplace creating increased profits while the rest of us pay part of to do what they wish to do and we should not intervene. the staffing cost for those 5,000 jobs. If a business is I make only one concession. The argument about the being operated in a modern European democracy, the living wage in a sense embraces one of my criticisms of people working for it and helping it to make that profit the minimum wage. The living wage is supposedly £1 or should surely earn enough to be able to live in that £1.50 higher in London than it is outside London, and modern European democracy without relying on state yet people, and the party of the right hon. Member for benefits. Tottenham (Mr Lammy) in particular, espouse the idea People will say that I am anti-free market on the basis that a national minimum wage needs to be the same that if employers are forced to pay decent wages, they across the country. It is recognised that the living wage will go out of business, but if we are realistic, we will is different in London. The costs of living in London admit that we do not really have a free market economy are higher, so the living wage in London is higher than when companies need to be subsidised by the benefits the living wage outside London. In a sense, the argument system, when institutions such as banks are not allowed opens up the debate about whether to have national to fail because of the effect on the UK economy and regulation or, if there is to be regulation at all, allow 113WH Living Wage9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 114WH regional variation. I am pleased to see some recognition Mr Lammy: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? on the part of the Labour party that regional variations are important. Mr Chope: I will not give way to the right hon. Whether a wage is a living wage depends on who Gentleman again, because lots of people want to participate receives the wage. I would like to draw Members’ attention in the debate. to Donald Hirsch’s “Working paper: uprating the out of Even the figures produced by supporters of the concept London Living Wage in 2012”, which updates the Centre of a London living wage demonstrate the variation in for Research in Social Policy calculations on the living living wage—£6 an hour each for members of a couple wage outside London. It uses the basis first set out in with no dependants, rising to £18.57 for a single parent 2011, produced at the request of the Living Wage with three dependant children. That is an annual wage Foundation, and draws on the minimum income standard requirement of £36,319 a year—pretty close to the level for the United Kingdom. It explains the basis for the at which they would have to pay a higher rate tax and outside London living wage level announced by the lose their child benefit under the wholly misguided Living Wage Foundation on 5 November 2012, coinciding benefit arrangements the Government have introduced. with the updating of the London living wage as calculated That is a side story to what we are discussing. by GLA Economics. If an individual wishes to employ someone, they offer I will not take Members through all the calculations, a wage for the job and it is up to individuals applying which start by calculating minimum living costs in for the job to decide whether it is worth while to 2012, translate that into a wage requirement, and consider undertake it at the wage offered. I hope the Minister will the application of a cap limiting the increase in an endorse that in his summing up. If employers just offer applied living wage in any one year. When one looks in wages in line with the national minimum wage, they detail at the calculations, one sees the fallacy in the hon. cannot differentiate between the person one might describe Lady’s argument. After carrying out all the calculations as the “honest plodder” and the person with a little for the different types of family, living in different types more enterprise, flair and, potentially, loyalty to the of accommodation, with differing child care needs, it organisation. That is why it is often in the best interests concludes: of a company to offer higher wages, and indeed why I “The following summarises the composition of the costs as set offer gap-year students in my office significantly more out above, and how this translates into wage requirements”— than the minimum wage. I recognise that in that way I in other words, what the hon. Lady would describe as a am more likely to get gap-year students who will stay “living wage”. The hourly wage requirement is £8.38 for the course, be conscientious and turn up for work on a single person and £6 for a couple without children or time than if I offer either zero wages or an internship dependants—significantly below the national minimum rate. wage. I operate in a marketplace myself, and all I am suggesting is that other employers should be encouraged Mr Lammy rose— to operate in the marketplace. We should not sleep walk into having a system of nationally set minimum wages Mr Chope: The paper then calculates the figures for that supposedly amount to a living wage. lone-parent families with one child, with two children and with three children. A lone-parent family with three Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman children, according to the research, has an hourly wage give way? requirement of £18.57. Mr Chope: I will give way once to the hon. Gentleman. Mr Lammy rose— Ian Lavery: The hon. Gentleman paddled a lot of Mr Chope: I am not sure whether it is the policy of information about the national minimum wage that was Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition for lone parents with completely unfounded, and he appears to be doing three children to be entitled to £18.57 an hour. exactly the same now. Does he not agree that the living wage is good for business, society and people in the Mr Lammy rose— workplace?

Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Will the right Mr Chope: The living wage may, in certain circumstances, hon. Gentleman sit down? be good for employers—I have just conceded that—and for employees, because they will receive more money Mr Chope: As soon as we look at the figures, we can than from another employer. I am much less certain extrapolate that an individual needs a wage at a particular about the overall benefits for society as a whole. Dramatic level in order to live. That may be so, but a wage is statements have been made about how, if everybody determined in the marketplace, which is why single had the living wage, it would increase the amount paid parents in this country have very low—relatively speaking to the Exchequer and therefore increase the amount of —labour market participation. It is not worth their money available to fund public expenditure, but that while to go out to work, because their wages will not be analysis does not bear detailed scrutiny. greater than their living costs or the benefits they receive. My point is that wages should be left to the marketplace. One good thing that the Government have done is It is for an individual to present himself, and if he adopt a policy designed to ensure that work pays and is wishes to take a job for £4 an hour—[Interruption.] worth while. If we take two equivalent families—one in The hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) shows his work and the other not—the one in work will receive scepticism, but a large number of graduates, who are more than the family not in work. out in the marketplace, are being presented with a stark 115WH Living Wage9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 116WH

[Mr Chope] choose to work more hours than that? Why arbitrarily choose that number of hours as the basis for assessing a choice: they either work for nothing—as an intern, living wage, because a living income may be based on basically—or do not receive the minimum wage because people working a lot more than 37 and a half hours? that is regarded by employers as unaffordable. Therefore, This debate has the potential to be quite interesting. I if an individual said to a potential employer, “I’m am grateful to the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead prepared to work for £4 an hour,” it would create an for introducing it. I hope that, in summing up, my right illegal situation. The purpose of my Employment hon. Friend the Minister will leave no room for doubt Opportunities Bill was to enable people voluntarily to that the coalition Government are absolutely opposed opt out of the requirements of the minimum wage to the living wage and more regulation. should they so wish. I would have thought that that was pretty fundamental in an open, democratic society, but obviously the control freaks in the socialist party do not 2.57 pm like giving people the freedom to do that. [Interruption.] Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. There is too I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Erith much chatter on the Back Benches. and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) on initiating this very Mr Chope: There is a chasm between what is articulated welcome debate. by those who support the living wage and— I have always believed in the dignity of labour and of work, but for millions in work and living on low pay, life Ian Lavery: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? can be a precarious existence that involves counting every penny. Under Labour, great progress was made. Mr Chope: I will give way a final time, but I will then The national minimum wage transformed the lives of sit down, because several others want to participate. millions. In my former being as deputy general secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union and then Ian Lavery: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving of Unite, I heard heartbreaking examples of people way a second time. Is he really suggesting that the who, having gone to work for 40, 50 or 60 hours a week, marketplace should determine wages? Would he accept were given their wages slip and saw that they had been people working for £1 an hour? paid £1.50 or £2 an hour. Mr Chope: In countries overseas, many people work If it is true that the national minimum wage transformed for less than £1 an hour, and some of them have taken the lives of millions, it is also true that life on the jobs that would have been available to people in this national minimum wage could be very tough, which is country, because those jobs have been outsourced overseas. why the notion of the living wage was born. It was born Some of the work done shows that companies based in, in the east end of London, initially by TELCO—the say, London may want to pay all their staff high salaries, East London Communities Organisation—which was which is fine, but often outsource more menial jobs to formed by faiths and community groups, as well as by a overseas locations where people are paid much less than parents’ movement, about which I shall say more later. the minimum wage operating in this country. That is an When I was elected deputy general secretary in 2003, area where the market should operate. one of the first things that I did was to sit down with The market for labour in Cornwall or north-east those excellent people, and together we mounted a England is different from that operating in London. highly effective campaign to end poverty pay, initially in The market for a young single person is different from Canary Wharf and the City of London. It was nothing that for someone with a lot of dependants. I have short of obscene that good men and women from all constituents, as I am sure does the hon. Gentleman, over the world cleaned boardrooms and toilets in those who have recently been made redundant but have so giant tower blocks—in which average wages were frequently many commitments that they cannot afford to take a £150,000, £200,000, £500,000 or £1 million a year—on job at a significantly reduced salary, because they would the national minimum wage, with statutory sick pay, no be unable to meet all those commitments. That is part pension and the basic minimum entitlement to holidays. of what I describe as the operation of the marketplace. That powerful movement changed the lives of 4,000 cleaners I do not feel that I am out on my own on the living in Canary Wharf and the City of London. wage, but we should not lose sight of the importance of Interestingly, an alliance of organised labour and allowing the market to operate in this area. Whether we faiths initially drove the process, but as we broke through, call it a moral case or whatever, I do not think that first one and then the other, we had more and more someone employed at £6 an hour—taking the figures I employers coming out and saying, “This is right, and gave earlier—should be prevented from being employed we should have done it earlier.” because somebody comes along and says that there shall be a national living wage in excess of £6 an hour, Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): I just want to put it with employers shedding employment as a result. on the record that it is right to praise people and Hundreds of thousands of people are self-employed. organisations such as Barclays, KPMG and the many They work for far less than the minimum wage or what Labour councils across the country, including my own people might describe as a living wage, but they work Ashfield district council, for introducing a living wage. hard and for long hours as self-employed people. Why should we condemn what they do, if they are operating Jack Dromey: More and more employers are embracing in their own marketplace? Why should we base a living the living wage. The next landmark in our campaign wage on a week of 37 and a half hours when, to was the organisation of the first strike in the history of increase their wages and standard of living, many people the House of Commons—it was of the cleaners. I have 117WH Living Wage9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 118WH the manifesto that was produced by those cleaners. Let and reputable employers—employers who pay the living me remind Members of where we were just four years wage. Such a policy is now being rolled out in Birmingham, ago. We were talking about wages of £4.85 to £5 an but not just by way of insisting that any contract let hour, 12 days holidays plus statutory days, statutory includes the living wage for goods or services. The sick pay only and no pension. I am pleased to say that, council is also building Birmingham’s business base by with the support of MPs from all parties, we broke maximising the letting of contracts in the area and through and now those cleaners earn the living wage. following other noble objectives, such as more employment More than 130 employers in London have embraced opportunities for disabled workers. the living wage, and that is increasingly happening The third stage is the leadership that we give in the elsewhere in the country—in areas such as Ashfield. In city as a whole and the power of advocacy, working London, all three parties in the Greater London assembly with a wide coalition of interests. Put simply, the argument have supported the living wage, and as a result, tens of is that Brummies are worth more than the minimum millions of pounds have gone to the low-paid. wage; every one of them is entitled to the living wage. Let me put the case for the living wage. First, it is We are also talking about the sort of society that we good for business. There is no question but that it has a are. It is wrong simply to see this as a moral issue. From substantial impact on productivity. Indeed, in surveys my own experience in the world of work, I know that of employers that have introduced the living wage, some there is a powerful business case for the living wage. 80% have said that there was a discernible improvement There is also a powerful economic case, because low-paid in the quality of work and that absenteeism fell by 25%. workers who move on to a living wage do not salt away Two thirds of the employers said that they had seen their money in tax havens; they spend it in local shops dramatic improvements in recruitment and retention, and local businesses. with far less churn in their work force than previously, None the less, there is, unashamedly, a moral case. As and 70% said that it had been good for the standing and part of the great drive for the living wage in Canary the reputation of their company. Frequently, employers Wharf and the City of London, we had, for four seek to sell themselves as being reputable and ethical, consecutive years, multi-denominational faith events in and the fact that they are living wage employers contributes Westminster cathedral. Hosted by the Catholic Church, to that. As for the business case, job quality, productivity, the events had all the churches, mosques and synagogues service delivery and reputation have all been improved, coming together. Some 4,000 people would turn up on with a relatively minor increase in costs on the part of the feast of St Joseph the Worker, or May day. On one those companies. occasion, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor and Canon A living wage is good for the individual, because John Armitage, the chair of London Citizens, gave two dignity in work is enhanced by a living wage. Interestingly, magnificent sermons. They summed up the history of in the surveys that have been done of employees in the drive of the faiths and organised labour for the living wage companies, 50% have said that they have dignity of labour, going back to the 1889 dock strike for been much more willing to embrace change within their the dockers’ tanner. They said that there is a powerful companies as a consequence of the fact that, at last, moral case for the living wage. As John Armitage said, their labour is being recognised by way of the living markets without morality contain the seeds of their wage. own destruction. The time for the living wage has come. The living wage is good for society. Returning to the origins of the living wage campaign in east London in Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): There is just over 2001, 2002 and 2003, the parents’ groups were a powerful 30 minutes before the start of wind-ups, and six Members driver. They argued that having to take on two or three wish to catch my eye. jobs to be able to pay their bills was an enemy of family life. The evidence is that, in London alone, 15,000 families 3.8 pm have been lifted out of poverty by the introduction of a living wage. If we look at the principal beneficiaries, we Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): I am pleased to see that 88% are women. A living wage is also good for serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. the taxpayer. By definition, if people are getting a living I agree with many of the remarks made by my hon. wage, they are less likely to need to depend on benefits Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), who and tax credits. put his case trenchantly. We are having a very simple I am proud to say that Birmingham, like Ashfield and argument: it boils down to whether we want free enterprise many other local authorities, is now driving forward and a free market system or whether we think that state with the living wage. It was the first pledge to be intervention is the way to achieve better economic outcomes honoured by the incoming Labour administration last for the people of this country. It seems to me that this May. There were three stages. The first stage took in the debate has been taking place for years in Britain. Until 3,000 directly employed employees in Birmingham, such recently, there had been a general presumption in favour as the wonderful Elaine Hook. They were previously of the markets. paid just a penny above the national minimum wage of I am pleased that the hon. Member for Birmingham, £6.19. They then received a £1 an hour increase, putting Erdington (Jack Dromey) referred to May day as a up the wage to £7.45 an hour. Time and again, Elaine great rallying point, because of course it was a great Hook has said that she cannot describe the difference it socialist parade. Those of us who remember the cold has made to the quality of her life. war will recall that May day was the Soviet Union’s big The second stage, which is under way right now, day, when tanks drove through Red square; it was very relates to the council’s procurement power. I have a much something that the Soviet Union celebrated. I am strong view that taxpayers and council tax payers are sure that the hon. Gentleman would love to go back to entitled to feel confident that contracts are let to decent those days, but many of us have moved on. I make the 119WH Living Wage9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 120WH

[Kwasi Kwarteng] the way to achieve greater prosperity is to allow businesses to do well, to flourish and to employ people, and that point perhaps a little flippantly, but there is a serious will not happen as a result of the state demanding a argument about whether one feels that better outcomes certain level of wages. We have been there: in the ’70s, can be achieved through state diktat. we had national incomes policy and price policy, but that all failed—it was a complete disaster. It is baffling, Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ in 2013, that we are hearing the same old socialist Co-op): The hon. Gentleman is talking about state arguments for Government intervention and control. intervention. Many people in my constituency and across I appreciate that many others want to speak, so I will London must effectively be subsidised through in-work finish on this point. benefits because of their low wages. There is therefore state subsidy and a cost to the state with the current Ian Lavery: Is it a socialist ideal or policy to support regime. having a decent living wage so that people can put bread on the table for their kids? Kwasi Kwarteng: We could have a separate argument about the efficacy of—[Interruption.] Let us stick with Kwasi Kwarteng: I have said this about three times in this theoretical idea. my speech: everybody wants people to have higher wages—[Interruption.] Mr Lammy: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Kwasi Kwarteng: No, I have given way once, and I need to proceed. The notion that one can improve Kwasi Kwarteng: No one is arguing against higher outcomes simply by passing laws about the level of pay wages. We are arguing about the most effective way of is false. The one way— raising living standards and economic prosperity for the whole country. I am suggesting, as a matter of theory, Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Will the hon. history and experience, that the socialist approach of Gentleman give way? using Government diktat is not the most effective way of dealing with this issue. Kwasi Kwarteng: No. Let me—[Interruption.] We can argue about this specific issue. Parties in London are suggesting that we have a living wage, but Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. The hon. that is something for companies and councils. I object Gentleman is not giving way. I would appreciate it if he to the idea that Whitehall and Westminster should set a were not barracked. national living wage that applies right through the country. Kwasi Kwarteng: The reason wages have gone up over Let me finish where I started—with the theoretical the past 50 years is economic growth; that is what has debate. There is a big debate about whether a free driven the rise in real wages, not laws passed by market system will produce better outcomes than an Governments, the minimum wage or anything like that. essentially state-controlled system. All through the world, The one way to secure economic growth is to create a the most successful economies are free market systems. situation in which businesses can thrive. I would like to see lower taxes and more people taken out of taxation—the Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): China. Government have successfully done that—so that they can spend more of their own money. I would also like Kwasi Kwarteng: In China, the state contributes only the burdens placed on employers through national insurance 20% of spending. In terms of state spending as a to be reduced. Such measures will be far more effective proportion of GDP, China is a far more private sector- in driving up our workers’ standards of living than driven economy than the UK or other western European Westminster or Whitehall imposing a living wage right countries. through the country. I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. May I ask the Christchurch mentioned that there was some regional hon. Gentleman to bring his remarks to a close? variation between London and the rest of the country. Kwasi Kwarteng: The notion that we can go back to In the debates about the minimum wage, it was seen socialism and that that will somehow increase living as a national minimum wage that did not recognise any standards is false, but I fear that that is what this living variation in the cost of living between London and wage proposal is about. It is simply trying to impose rural Scotland. more regulation, more rules and more of a straitjacket on business, thereby inevitably impeding and impairing Anas Sarwar: Just to clarify, the hon. Gentleman’s our ability to grow the economy and create genuine argument is exactly the same argument that was made prosperity. against the minimum wage in 1997. Does he support the minimum wage? 3.16 pm Kwasi Kwarteng: I support it now, because it is a fact Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I will try not to be distracted of life. To address the hon. Gentleman’s comment directly, by some of the more bizarre arguments I have just the minimum wage is not set at a level that is damaging heard. Needless to say, I am unashamed to say that I am to business. It is set at a reasonable level, although I am a proud socialist, like my hon. Friend the Member for not saying that it is the best level. I want people to earn Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce), and to stand more—of course I want them to be more affluent—but up for the people I represent, who work— 121WH Living Wage9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 122WH

Kwasi Kwarteng: Will the hon. Lady give way? and children get to spend time together. That is why Save the Children and so many other children’s charities Lisa Nandy: I will give way in a moment. Let me support it. There is also a clear economic case. The finish my sentence. I am unashamed to stand up for the costs of child poverty have been estimated at some people I represent, who, after a long week at work, do £25 billion a year. Taking action on this issue is an not earn enough to pay for basic necessities. urgent economic necessity, not just a moral one. I want to take on one of the points that Government Kwasi Kwarteng: It is rare that we have such candour Members have made, which is about helping businesses. on this estate, so I am glad to hear what the hon. Lady My hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead says. I congratulate her on putting her hand up and also alluded to that. In my constituency, the public and saying that she is actually a socialist. That is what this private sectors are completely interdependent. Some debate is about. two thirds of my constituents are employed by small and medium-sized businesses. The other third—until Lisa Nandy: Forgive me, but I thought it was about the Government were elected—were employed by the the living wage and the conditions of the lowest paid in public sector. Small and medium-sized businesses rely this country. on the public sector; they rely on people being in work I congratulate my hon. Friend on helping to put some in it, in decently paid jobs, so that they can spend in momentum behind an incredibly important issue. Last their businesses and flourish. The fact that my council year, the council in my area, Wigan council, became one has taken a lead and said, “We will ensure that all the of many around the country to pledge to pay the living people in our employ are able to have enough money to wage. That will have profound and important consequences go out and spend it in the local economy”, will be a for the 565 people who work for it, but who do not tremendous boost to the small and medium-sized businesses currently earn the living wage. For those who were that I am keen to support. previously on the minimum wage, the change will put There is a growing army of people in my constituency an extra £40 a week in their pockets. The significance of who work part-time hours, despite desperately wanting that for the lowest paid cannot be overestimated. to work for longer, or have zero-hour contracts or are in I say to Conservative Members that there is no political agency work. As the Joseph Rowntree Foundation’s fissure on this issue, although they seem to be trying to recent report so compellingly illustrated, the divide create one. Although the majority of councils across between those in work earning poverty pay and those Greater Manchester that have agreed to pay the living out of work getting poverty benefits is completely false, wage are Labour run, Trafford council has done the because those two groups are one and the same, and same, and it is run by the Conservatives. In London, of they are moving in and out of employment at an course, the Mayor, Boris Johnson, has also spoken on alarming rate. Trying to create a divide between the this issue. private and public sectors and between people in work and out of work is simply false. Kwasi Kwarteng: Will the hon. Lady give way on that Many of the solutions that have appeared with the specific point? growth in poverty in the past few years are from charities. One aspect of that rise has been the alarming and Lisa Nandy: No, I will not give way, because several distressing growth of food banks around the Greater people want to speak, and the hon. Gentleman has had Manchester area. Many of those food banks are supported his turn. by supermarkets and I pay tribute to them for stepping We know the difference the living wage will make for up and doing that, but those very same supermarkets the 4.4 million people across the country who earn less must ensure that they are not part of the problem, and than £7 an hour, and so do the hon. Gentleman’s that they do not refuse to take people on for anything colleagues on Conservative-run councils. We also know other than part-time work or to pay a living wage. That the difference it will make for their families. The Child would help stimulate the economy and meet their employees’ Poverty Action Group has calculated that two parents basic needs. on the minimum wage can meet only 82% of the basic Finally, to set this in the context of what has happened costs of bringing up their children. Essentially, we are largely over the course of my lifetime, we have seen the telling those parents, “Go to work, work hard and work earnings of people at the bottom of society stagnate long hours. When you come home, your children will while the earnings of those at the very top have increased still go without the basic essentials they need to have significantly. Between 1986 and 2012, incomes in the decent childhoods.” The Institute for Fiscal Studies top 10% increased by 81%, while the bottom 10% calculates that one in four children will grow up in increased by only 47%. Research has shown that if the poverty by 2020, which is a disgrace and a scandal. In national minimum wage had kept pace with the salaries Greater Manchester, part of which I represent, 40% of of CEOs in FTSE 100 companies since 1999, it would children already grow up in poverty. now stand at £18.89 an hour. The failure to pay the living wage strikes at many of We know that inequality is bad for society—that has the Government’s objectives. Their strategy to tackle been compellingly demonstrated by “The Spirit Level”— child poverty is based on trying to get parents into and we see it all the time in our own constituencies. employment, but 58% of children growing up in poverty Several Members of Parliament, including my right have a parent who works. The point is this: if work does hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) not pay, we will not be able to tackle child poverty. As and I, have been trying to advance the case that, as in my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington America, the pay ratios of the top two average earners (Jack Dromey) said so eloquently, on behalf of his in FTSE 100 companies should be published on the constituent, Elaine, the living wage means that parents front page of their annual reports, so that we can see 123WH Living Wage9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 124WH

[Lisa Nandy] accredited as living wage employers. Despite support from the Conservative Mayor of London, it is disappointing whether companies are fairly distributing reward. The that no Conservative-controlled councils in London trouble with that proposal is that, although it may have yet been accredited. I support the campaign by compress and restrain wages at the top, it does not do London Citizens, which is part of Citizens UK, alongside very much for the lowest paid. The East London Communities Organisation, to persuade The living wage is becoming an urgent priority in Croydon council, which covers my constituency, to sign Wigan, in Erith and Thamesmead and up and down the up to the living wage, both for its own directly employed country. The living wage would be an effective and staff and for staff employed by contractors and sub- simple way of helping tackle the lengthening queues at contractors. food banks, the growing numbers of children growing Employers who implement the living wage have reported up in poverty and the families that lack the means to improved recruitment and retention of staff, higher make ends meet. My hon. Friend the Member for Erith work morale and increased productivity.Those all represent and Thamesmead talked about ironing out some of the increased value for money for the services provided, difficulties that have been raised by the living wage. The which is important in these straitened times. Lambeth situation should not be allowed to continue; it is immoral council found—I was leading it at the time—that when and bad economics. I would like the Minister to begin it tendered its facilities management contract on a living by committing to at least ensuring that the living wage wage basis, the market responded positively and came is extended to the Government’s employees across the up with innovative ways to meet the requirement within board and to working with companies contracted by the funds available and without loss of jobs. Many Government so that they also pay the living wage to public services are procured through consortia, and we their staff. can encourage the market to innovate in ways that allow workers the decency of a living wage by harnessing the purchasing power of those groupings. It is important 3.24 pm that the Government recognise their role in encouraging Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab): I thank my hon. that to happen, because leaving it to the market alone Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa will not result in all those benefits. Pearce) for introducing the debate. It is important, not There is immense value in ensuring that work pays. least because life is becoming increasingly stressful for People in work should never be forced to live in poverty. many low-paid workers. That is not just a moral argument; it is about value for The Equality and Human Rights Commission’s 2011 money and improving the quality of public services. review of home care for older people highlighted cases There are costs to society as a whole, including financial of physical abuse, theft, neglect and disregard for privacy ones, as well as to the individual workers affected, if we and dignity.Last April, the Low Pay Commission reported force hard-working people into poverty and illness by that 10% of home care workers are paid below the paying them less than is necessary to meet the basic minimum wage, let alone the living wage, with some needs of their lives. workers paid per visit rather than per hour, with no reimbursement of travel costs. 3.28 pm There is a link between the findings of those two high-profile studies. Too many home care workers, John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): My encouraged to complete each visit as quickly as possible concern before Christmas, when the welfare Bill debate and therefore with their pay as low as possible, are started, was the absolute gulf between the views of unable to form relationships with the older people they Members and some of the constituents whom we represent. care for and feel pressured to complete the visit too I organised a group of cleaners to come into the House quickly. That dehumanises the service being provided of Commons before Christmas. They were represented and makes instances of neglect more likely. The worker by the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport has little or no job satisfaction, little incentive to do a Workers, the Industrial Workers of Great Britain, the better job, little spare cash at the end of a tough Public and Commercial Services Union and others. I working week and increasing levels of stress. Unsurprisingly, asked the cleaners to explain what was happening to levels of sickness absence are high and so is employee them at the time, because for them, the market is not turnover. When the stress gets too much and illness working. follows, some workers move on to long-term sickness I went on the picket lines outside Schroders bank in benefit. It is not only care workers; similar examples the City and outside John Lewis as well, whose cleaners exist in almost any low-paid, high-stress employment. are also paid the minimum wage or, in some instances, We are, in effect, pathologising poverty. just above. I found that all of them were doing extra There is another way. Organisations such as Care and shifts—on average two extra a week. Their working Share Associates and Sunderland Home Care Associates hours were then 50 to 60 hours a week, at a minimum. have found that they can cut both sick leave and staff Some 50% of them had second jobs and some had three turnover by giving their staff better terms and conditions, jobs. The cleaners were getting up at 3 or 4 o’clock in including liveable incomes. The quality of care provided the morning and travelling to work by bus because the improves; sickness, including long-term sickness and tube was too expensive for them. Some of them worked incapacity, reduces, and the cost to the rest of society is until 7, 8, 9 or 10 o’clock at night, which was absolutely lowered, while the individual worker’s quality of life staggering. improves. Many Labour councils in London, including One group was employed by a company called Lewisham, Hackney and Lambeth, have recognised the trainpeople. They brought their contracts along with value of paying the London living wage and have been them. They were not on zero-hours contracts but on 125WH Living Wage9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 126WH eight-hour contracts, so they were guaranteed only eight that a fair wage for a fair day’s work is something that hours of work a week. They were on a minimum wage; we support. I was slightly disturbed by the hon. Member they had to sign up to travel to anywhere in the country for Christchurch (Mr Chope) seemingly comparing people to work; they were on a probation period of 12 weeks; abroad working for £1 an hour or less with people here and if they left during that 12-week period they themselves in Britain, as though that was an option for people here. had to pay £200 back to the company. Again, the I hope that he did not mean it quite that way, but that is experiences of these people are just absolutely staggering. how it came across. I was then involved with some of the other London Let us remember that it was the Conservative living wage campaigns. For example, we won at the Government of the ’80s who abolished the mechanism London School of Economics, securing the London for setting fair pay, the wages council. I am very proud living wage there. However, what then happened was that I am a Labour MP and that it was a Labour that the company involved cut the hours of the other Government who introduced the minimum wage because workers by 20%. In other words, they were trying to of the abysmal failure of having a complete free rein on consolidate their profits by cutting jobs and cutting wages. work themselves. Also, we are consistently finding that, when the living Kwasi Kwarteng: Is the hon. Lady suggesting that we wage goes up—Boris Johnson announced the figure of go back to the ’70s and the kinds of industrial relations £8.55 and I am grateful to him for the support that he that we had then? has given throughout this campaign—the companies involved delay payment of the increase of the wage, too. That is another way of keeping wages suppressed, while Meg Hillier: I cannot understand how the hon. at the same time maximising their profits. Gentleman makes a jump to reach that conclusion from my suggesting that we do not want to go back to a The general expression that was used by the cleaners complete free rein on pay. That is not what I am saying in these cases was, “We are treated like dirt.” They also at all, as he well knows. It is mischievous of him to said, “We are managed in a brutal way, often harassed suggest that I am saying that. and have no alternatives.” There is now a new alliance being put together, in John McDonnell: Can I suggest that what the hon. terms of trade unions supporting the London living Gentleman is saying is that he wants a free market but wage campaign, because people cannot take it any he does not want free trade unions? more. Yes, people are seeking to organise and to negotiate, but they are also taking direct action now. The PCS, the IWGB, the RMT and others closed Oxford street before Meg Hillier: I think that we can certainly infer that Christmas, because they could not get into negotiations from the hon. Gentleman’s comments. with a company to increase the wages that its employees were on; the employees were arguing for an increase in Several hon. Members rose— their wages as they could not survive on their existing wages. Meg Hillier: I will just make a little progress before I We now have direct action campaigns, such as the take interventions. UK Uncut campaign, whereby firms are being occupied by workers because those workers are not getting any I am also delighted that it is my party that is seeking response from the companies themselves to their requests to ensure that, in constituencies such as my own, a to increase their wages and improve their conditions. living wage will enable people to work. Let us be clear There are other things going on. One union is now about something, before we run away with the idea that planning to set up soup kitchens outside the homes of a living wage will be very damaging to lots of small directors of companies that are making vast profits but businesses. A living wage is not something that a Labour paying poverty wages to their workers. Government would force upon business, or certainly All that activity confirms that the market is not not upon small businesses. There are businesses such as working and that there is a need for state intervention at Moo.com in Tech city, which employs people in its times—not always, but at times—at least to secure warehouse in EC2, providing good, valuable jobs locally. people’s ability to survive in a civilised society with Those people are on the minimum wage for the first some decency. That is why I welcome this debate today, part of their contract, until they have been there for a which will further that campaign. while, and then the company increases their wage. Flexibility is built into the Labour policy to ensure that the system will work. 3.32 pm I will offer one word of caution. We need to look at Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ the hourly gross rate of pay. That is obviously important, Co-op): Thank you very much, Mrs Main, for calling because it reflects the day-to-day money that people me to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under your take home to live on, but we also need to consider chairmanship. pensions and other work benefits. When we assess what I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Erith is fair pay, those benefits need to be brought into the and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) on securing this debate round. My point is that, if a company pays a little lower on a very important issue. I represent a constituency in than the living wage but pays a pension, we need to the part of London—east London—that was the birthplace be watchful. As a Labour Government, we will need of the living wage campaign. I think that we would all to be clear that the pressure, or indeed the kudos, of agree—Labour Members would certainly agree and paying the living wage does not lead to the erosion perhaps even some Government Members would agree— of other benefits that are a type of payment in kind. 127WH Living Wage9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 128WH

[Meg Hillier] and support small employers, to get people into work, yes, but also to increase their pay gradually so that they My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington are on a living wage. There is a real interest for business, (John McDonnell) made some very good points but some of those start-ups in my constituency will be about that. worried if they foresee a suggestion that overnight they will have to increase wages. We need to handle that issue Kwasi Kwarteng rose— carefully, because the jobs that are being created in my constituency and elsewhere are important. Meg Hillier: I will give way one last time. I am proud that my local council, Hackney council, is one of those councils that are accredited as paying the Kwasi Kwarteng: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady living wage, because we in Hackney see the impact on for giving way; she is being very generous in allowing people’s lives of that policy. We are living what is interventions. What would she think about a Member happening. However, it was interesting that when I of Parliament, for example, or someone else advertising asked the Deputy Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s for an apprentice at £3 an hour, which I understand one questions in November how many Liberal Democrat of her colleagues on the Labour Benches has done? councils were paying the living wage, answer came there none. Meg Hillier: I would be appalled, and indeed I am appalled. I am part of the campaign in Parliament to Mr Iain Wright: Where are the Liberal Democrats? ensure that all of us—from whatever party—pay people in our offices a fair rate. I like to think that I lead by example on that; in fact, I know I lead by example on Meg Hillier: Indeed. Today, not a single Liberal Democrat the issue, alongside a number of my other colleagues. I MP is here in Westminster Hall, even though the Deputy think that we can all agree that what the hon. Gentleman Prime Minister has pledged his support for the policy of just referred to is not something that we would want to a living wage; he has pledged his support, but words can see in the mother of Parliaments. be very empty. Let me relate this debate to real life, because we could As I say, there is not a single Liberal Democrat MP have a theoretical discussion in Parliament about the here in Westminster Hall today, but since November I economics of the issue. A kitchen porter came to my have discovered that there is actually one small Liberal surgery and he was very upset. Being a kitchen porter is Democrat-run district council that pays the living wage. low-wage employment, but he was seeking work because In a show of cross-party support, we should congratulate he was out of work. However, his jobcentre was asking that council on that and hope that it has some influence him to travel further afield in order to take a job as a on the party leader in ensuring that a living wage system kitchen porter. One could say that that was quite reasonable. is rolled out more widely. However, because of the low wages for that type of job, We also need to look at the most profitable companies, the extra costs to travel out of the borough and the which in London are being subsidised—as I mentioned extra child care needed because of the longer hours earlier—by taxpayers through tax credits and benefits. spent travelling, it was not a viable option. There is not a nil cost to lower pay. In fact, it was the Let us be clear—that man is no shirker. However, the current Chief Whip of the Government, the right hon. hon. Member for Christchurch suggests that the market Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young), would solve that problem, perhaps by single people who talked about housing benefit “taking the strain” taking that work. However, my constituent has a family back in the ’90s. Housing benefit has still been “taking to support; he wants to support them but is unable to the strain” despite attempts by both the last Labour do so under the current regime, except that the state will Government and this Government to change the approach. subsidise matters to a degree by providing benefits. So It is housing benefit that subsidised so many people in we are talking in the round here. There is always a cost their lifestyle, because wages are not high enough. to the state, whichever way we do things, and actually In London, we cannot raise wages enough to cover giving people the dignity of earning a living wage with all housing costs; I recognise that, before Government which they can support their family and make choices Members leap up and suggest that that is what I am for their family on their own is very much at the heart of saying. I am not saying that, but we must recognise that Labour’s policy in this area. people need to be paid a rate that they can actually I could add to that kitchen porter many other of my afford to live on and that there is no nil cost to the constituents, even some on higher salaries. The tube Exchequer. price hikes and the bus fare hikes by the Mayor of Labour’s voluntary model is a moderate one. It says London, and the cost-capping—we had the vote yesterday to companies, “Publish. Be transparent about who you’re in Parliament on in-work benefits—all put pressures on paying and what you’re paying them.” People can then people’s ability to pay their costs of living. That is why a make judgments for themselves. We have already seen living wage gives people the dignity of being able to some companies, such as KPMG, lead by example, and make their own choices. if some can do it why not all of them? We also need to look at national insurance contributions. That is something that we will need to work through as 3.39 pm a party, as we flesh out the policy on the living wage. NICs are now more than 13% of total gross pay for Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): It is a pleasure to small employers, which is more than employees contribute. serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, and I wish The on-costs for a small employer are significant and you and all Members who have contributed to the we need to think about how we might want to encourage debate a happy new year, particularly my hon. Friend 129WH Living Wage9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 130WH the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce). Southwark and Hackney have introduced a living wage, I congratulate her on securing such an important and and others are set to follow, including Newcastle city passionate debate. council in my own north-east region. In difficult financial As my hon. Friend mentioned, the living wage is an times for local government, those local authorities should important means by which greater dignity and fairness be applauded for doing the right thing for their employees. can be offered to people, by lifting them and their I hope that, despite the appalling financial settlement it families out of poverty while at the same time helping received from the Government last month—the 2.2% them to become less reliant on state benefits. She talked, cut being the highest in the region—my own local as did my hon. Friends the Members for Wigan (Lisa authority, Hartlepool borough council, will be able to Nandy) and for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg follow suit. Hillier), about decent, hard-working people doing the This should not, however, be about local government, right thing and going out to work to provide for themselves or even about the public sector—such an approach is and their families. People having aspirations, and striving entirely wrong. Wherever possible, a living wage should for a better future for themselves, their families, their be adopted in the private sector. It might be more communities and their country, should be rewarded. difficult for small businesses, as my hon. Friend the Hard work and effort should be appropriately remunerated Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch mentioned, in the form of a decent and dignified rate of pay, to but it should be considered almost automatically by avoid the misery and desperation of in-work poverty. larger enterprises. Credit should be given to the likes of As Labour Members have mentioned several times, Barclays, Deutsche bank, PricewaterhouseCoopers and the national minimum wage, introduced by a Labour KPMG, which have become living wage employers. The Government, has done a huge amount by providing the nature of those firms’ business models and the sectors protection of a legal pay floor for more than 1 million in which they operate, as well as the size of the companies, people. However, although the minimum wage is an might mean that they have relatively fewer low-paid important achievement, it should not, as my right hon. workers than other companies, particularly in sectors Friend the Leader of the Opposition has said, be the such as retail. Therefore, all credit must be given to summit of our ambitions. Indeed, he has been at the Westfield shopping centre, Lush and the InterContinental forefront of discussions about the living wage. Hotels Group, whose business models, on adopting a living wage, will rely more heavily on low-paid workers. The living wage complements and reinforces the vision of a one-nation economy, in which everyone in society Hon. Members, particularly my hon. Friend who plays a part and has a stake, and where prosperity is introduced the debate, have rightly mentioned the net fairly shared. I would like to think that this country, and savings to the Exchequer as a result of the implementation the manner in which its economy is organised, has the of a living wage. My hon. Friend mentioned that research ability to move on from an old-fashioned and outdated by the Resolution Foundation and the Institute for form of capitalism, which is what we have heard from Public Policy Research found that the Treasury would the hon. Members for Christchurch (Mr Chope) and benefit by about £3.6 billion each year in the form of for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) today. That form of higher income tax payments and national insurance capitalism sees a confrontational, divisive and somewhat contributions, and lower benefits spending. inefficient “them and us” attitude between employee As my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North and employer, which prioritises the erosion of employment and other Members have said, there is also anecdotal rights. A race to the bottom in relation to workers’ evidence that businesses will benefit from the introduction rights or wage rates will not help this country to improve of a living wage, and will become more productive. our competitive position in the 21st century global There will be improved staff recruitment and retention economy, or achieve greater fairness and social justice. I and associated cost savings, higher worker morale and do not understand why people on the highest possible therefore improved productivity, and an enhanced corporate rate of pay are motivated by being paid more, while reputation in the marketplace. Wendy Cuthbert, head people on the lowest possible rate, who are struggling of UK corporate real estate services for Barclays, has barely to make a living and feed their families, are said that since the company adopted the living wage in motivated by being paid less. That seems fundamentally 2007 catering staff retention rates have increased to wrong. 77%, compared to an industry norm of 54%, and the rates for cleaning staff have increased to 92%, compared Kwasi Kwarteng: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting to the industry average of just 35%. She has commented: that state legislation will make Britain more competitive “Now when we train our staff we know that the money isn’t in the global economy? being wasted. They don’t want to leave and they no longer have to do two jobs just to survive...Employers need to look at the whole cost of employment not just the cost-per-hour. We don’t understand Mr Wright: As I said, the national minimum wage why more companies don’t do this.” has helped to lift people out of poverty, and as my hon. Guy Stallard, head of facilities at KPMG, has stated: Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack “We’ve found that paying the Living Wage is a smart business Dromey) said, people on the lowest levels of pay tend to move as increasing wages has reduced staff turnover and absenteeism, spend their money in the economy. The multiplier effect whilst productivity and professionalism have subsequently increased.” will, therefore, probably help benefits, jobs, prospects I have a number of questions for the Minister. On and economic positions—it certainly has a beneficial Government policy, the Minister in the other place, the role to play in the economy. one who did not resign yesterday, the noble Lord Gardiner Several hon. Friends have mentioned that local of Kimble, has confirmed that the authorities, such as Islington, Lambeth—which was “Government back the idea of a living wage and we encourage very well led by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon businesses, where possible, to take it up.”—[Official Report, House North (Steve Reed)—Wigan, Camden, Oxford, Preston, of Lords, 8 November 2012; Vol. 740, c. 1092.] 131WH Living Wage9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 132WH

[Mr Iain Wright] my right hon. Friend’s suggestion, stating that such a move would breach EU procurement rules. The European Can the Minister confirm that that is still the case and Commission, however, has explicitly stated: that it is Government policy, despite the comments “Living-wage conditions may be included in the contract from his Back Benchers this afternoon? performance clauses of a public procurement contract ‘provided they are not directly or indirectly discriminatory and are indicated Kwasi Kwarteng: No one has an issue with individual in the contract notice or in the contract documents’.” companies deciding to pay the living wage. That is There is no problem or obstacle in European law, so will entirely how a market should work. the Minister confirm that what the European Commission said is already the case? In that light, will he outline the Mr Wright: Let me come on to that in my questions actions he will take to ensure that employers who pay to the Minister. the living wage are considered favourably in public procurement? How is that encouragement that was mentioned by The living wage is an important social and economic the Government in the other place manifesting itself in lever in which everyone has a stake, people in work have tangible and practical action? What are the Government a more dignified and higher standard of living than actually doing to encourage businesses to consider becoming would otherwise be the case and prosperity is better and living wage employers? What meetings has the Minister more fairly shared. I hope that the Minister will outline had with businesses and business organisations to discuss how he will advance the introduction of a living wage the matter? Has he met with colleagues across Government, across businesses and across society more generally. such as the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, to ascertain how organisations in other sectors have successfully implemented a living 3.50 pm wage? Has he, or have his officials, met with Citizens UK, for example, to discuss what practical steps can be The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation taken? Citizens UK is an organisation that is doing an and Skills (Michael Fallon): I congratulate the hon. awful lot of work in relation to the living wage campaign. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) on Has the Minister considered a promotional campaign, securing this debate. She has long championed the sponsored by his Department, to raise awareness about living wage, and it is a tribute to her work that she has the issue with businesses? Has he considered amending been able to attract such a large participation in today’s corporate governance rules, to ensure that large listed debate and, as the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) companies can report specifically on whether they have said, such a passionate exchange of views. The living paid the living wage, as a means of encouraging take-up wage is a subject that arouses great passions. by larger companies? The hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) asked about the absence of Liberal Democrat The Prime Minister has said: Members. I cannot speak for the Liberal Democrats—I “Where government leads, others will follow”, am not very good at that—but the Under-Secretary of and business will legitimately look to the Government State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend to see whether their actions match their rhetoric. As I the Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), is understand it, and as has been said, the Department for responsible for this portfolio in the Department for Work and Pensions is the only Department that has Business, Innovation and Skills, and she is answering announced that it will pay the London living wage, the debate in the main Chamber at this very moment, although two others, the Cabinet Office and the Ministry which is why, Mrs Main, you and the others in attendance of Justice, might follow suit. Could the Minister inform have to put up with a stand-in. the House how many Departments plan to pay the We would all like people to be paid more, but obviously living wage, and when? Given that the Minister is in the there is concern that requiring all businesses, large Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and and small, to pay a living wage as proposed would another Minister has said that the Government will price people out of work, particularly young people. encourage businesses to take up the living wage, does Encouragement is a better approach than compulsion, the Minister’s own Department have any plans to ensure because the alternative would reduce the flexibility of that all its employees and contracted workers are paid businesses and could ultimately be bad for jobs. the living wage? What work is he doing with non- We already have a national minimum wage that we departmental public bodies sponsored by his Department require all businesses to pay, and the Government fully to look into the possibility of their becoming living support that. The minimum wage is the national rate wage employers too? that the Government of the day—including the previous I raised earlier the issue of research and the collection Labour Government—judge, based on the independent of evidence on the savings to the public purse and the Low Pay Commission’s recommendations, as striking positive impact on business. Has the Minister commissioned the appropriate statutory balance, trying to increase any research into the effect of the living wage, including workers’ take-home pay without damaging employment the possible social, economic and business impacts? or other elements such as prices. The adult national One of the most powerful levers at the Government’s minimum wage that we inherited, £5.80 an hour, has disposal is not regulation or legislation but procurement, now reached £6.19 an hour. That is a 6.7% increase, and that has been mentioned a number of times in the which is faster than the growth in average earnings over debate today. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the the same period. Opposition has suggested that Departments could give The Government have targeted further help at the preferential treatment to contractors who pay the living take-home pay of the low-paid by cutting their taxes. wage. My understanding is that No. 10 quickly dismissed When the coalition Government came into power, 133WH Living Wage9 JANUARY 2013 Living Wage 134WH the personal tax allowance stood at just £6,475. The 20% outside London and by approximately 38% in Government are committed to making the first £10,000 of London. That is without taking into account other income free from income tax by the end of the Parliament. increases in labour costs, such as national insurance. April 2013 will see the next step of that commitment: The picture becomes much starker when we look at the personal allowance will increase by £1,335, the the position of those under the age of 21. There are largest ever increase, to £9,440 to support hard-working separate, lower, minimum wage rates for younger workers individuals. Those tax cuts for the low-paid have taken because of the previous Government’s concern that a 2 million people out of income tax altogether. Those higher rate would damage their employment prospects; still paying tax will be taking home £57 more each week there is no such distinction in the proposed living wage. in April and more than £67 more each week by the end That means that the difference between the minimum of the Parliament. Under this Government, people wage and the proposed living wage for someone working working full time on the minimum wage will have seen in London aged between 18 and 20 would be some their income tax bill cut in half. £3.57, an increase of 72%. For someone aged between In difficult times, the Government have, therefore, 16 and 17, the difference would be £4.87, an increase of clearly given priority to the lowest-paid by providing 130%. strong support for the national minimum wage, which The Low Pay Commission is concerned to ensure aims to maximise the pay of low-paid workers without that minimum wage increases do not have adverse damaging employment, and tax cuts focused directly on effects on employment. The commission’s most recent the low-paid through raising the tax allowance to £10,000 a recommendations have been for a 1.8% increase in the year by the end of the Parliament. adult rate and a freeze in the youth rates. It stated that “we concluded that in the current difficult economic circumstances That is not all. The Government are continuing to caution is essential.” take steps to support households with the cost of living. These differences imply that, if the proposed living We have frozen council tax for the third year running. wage rates were imposed universally, they would inevitably We have cancelled the 3p fuel duty increase planned for price some people out of work. Those who keep their this month—average pump prices are 10p a litre lower jobs will receive at least the increased living wage, of than under Labour’s fuel duty plans—and we have course, but they might prefer to keep more of their capped rail fare increases, which will benefit 250,000 annual colleagues working alongside them. The Government, season ticket holders. That is in marked contrast to like the previous Government, believe there is no case Labour, which doubled council tax, doubled gas prices for imposing a higher minimum wage across the country and increased fuel duty 12 times. by statute. Raising the minimum hourly rate to the proposed Some argue that it would be easier to implement the living wage rate would have consequences. If those living wage in the public sector than in the private consequences make things worse rather than better, it sector. That is only true, however, if the effect of would make no sense to introduce the living wage. The implementing the living wage does not lead to higher biggest danger is pricing people out of work because procurement costs. Otherwise, implementing the deficit- the business concerned cannot sustain the higher labour reduction plan will be more difficult, with either greater costs of the living wage. In that case, the individuals public sector job losses elsewhere or higher taxes, which who lose out are socially excluded from the world of would make it more difficult to reduce the taxes of the work; the business will be less able to compete and earn lower-paid. profits; and the Government will lose out because growth Opposition Members have claimed the living wage is is lower, tax receipts are less and benefit payments are an issue of fairness, but last night we saw that the higher. Labour party wants benefits to rise faster than workers’ The national minimum wage raises awkward questions wages, which is not fair. Labour’s plan would inevitably about the proposed living wage. In particular, the remit mean more borrowing and more debt. that Parliament, under the previous Labour Government, In contrast, our priority is to increase the take-home gave to the Low Pay Commission has the primary aim pay of low-paid people. The key elements of that are of setting the maximum hourly national rate possible the national minimum wage and raising the tax allowance without any adverse effect on employment. The current to £10,000 by the end of the Parliament. We believe that adult national minimum wage of £6.19 an hour is workers and businesses are best placed to determine the substantially below the suggested 2011 living wage rate pay and working conditions that both suit the workers outside London of £7.45 and even further below the and deliver success for the business. The level of £8.55 London rate. Requiring all businesses to pay the unemployment among young people that we inherited living wage would increase wage costs by approximately is already too high. 135WH 9 JANUARY 2013 Special Educational Needs (Wirral) 136WH

Special Educational Needs (Wirral) I should say at this point that although I am not an expert, I understand that the question of a transition for all children is one on which different professionals take different views. I do not presume to know the right 4pm answer; my aim is to relay to the Government the views of my constituents. They feel that a transition is not Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I am grateful right for them, and they would like Wirral council to for the opportunity to have this debate and hear the consider helping the Lyndale school become two-to-19 Government’s view. The issue affects a few people in my if it wishes. Clearly, it is not for the Minister to say what constituency, but its importance is in no way diminished the right decision is for Wirral to take, but I would be by the number of people affected. Those of us who have grateful for advice and assistance from the Government—I listened to the parents of children with significant disabilities will come to specific asks—to help my constituents to can never meet them without feeling a great responsibility address the question. to listen to them and understand their concerns, which I I understand that a significant minority of special will attempt to relay in this debate. schools in the country are two-to-19 schools. In its 2006 I am not a specialist by any means in special educational report on special educational needs, Ofsted found that needs and assisting children with disabilities and their the crucial factor in the successful education of children families, which is another reason why I requested the with special needs is not the type of school but the debate, but whenever I meet my constituents who have quality of the environment and the education that they children with profound and multiple learning disabilities, receive. That makes sense to me. Having visited various I am struck by their commitment and dedication. I have schools, I know that what is important is not necessarily no doubt that every MP thinks that their constituents the name on the door or the structure within which the are special and important, but those constituents of school operates, but rather the expertise of the people mine are some of the most dedicated people in our assisting the children. That is reflected in my constituents’ society, and they deserve our full respect and appreciation. desire for their children to be looked after in a way that Their children are deeply important members of our centres on their needs. They are children for whom the community. challenges are greatest. We as a community have the For those reasons, I want to refer to education from biggest responsibility to assist them, given the complexity the ages of two to 19 in schools in Wirral and specifically of their needs. the Lyndale school, which I have visited several times, Expertise states that the transition between primary as did my predecessor. I am sure that I speak for him and secondary school is less of a priority for parents when I say that we have been struck in recent years by than their children’s specific needs. Those views should how fantastic a place the school is. It has about 20 children, be listened to, as we should listen to all parents about so it is a very small school, and it specialises in education their concerns for their child’s needs. I hope that there is for children with profound and multiple learning difficulties. cross-party acceptance of that basic principle. As has They are the children coping with the most complex been explained to me, some professionals in the Wirral difficulties and profound disabilities. All 20 of them use view transition as important. However, one of our wheelchairs, seven of the children require oxygen, six neighbouring authorities, Cheshire West and Chester, require suctioning and many have epilepsy. has several two-to-19 schools. If a school such as the In 2010, I visited the school to present it with an Lyndale, which has expertise, wants to go in that direction, award from a national epilepsy charity for the care that it is important to consider how we can empower it to it gives to children with epilepsy. I was pleased and do so. proud to do so. Although the school is small, it is an Before I delineate how I hope that the Government, expert environment. I understand that some of the the Minister and civil servants might help us address the children need the help of up to 30 professionals. They concerns of parents at the Lyndale school, I note that may come into contact with lots of different people, the funding system for all schools—specifically, special which can be stressful. Parents must constantly retell schools—is changing. As we can all understand, those their child’s story. I understand how frustrating, difficult changes will affect the smallest and most specialised and at times upsetting they must find that. schools the most. A small fluctuation in numbers can Having listened to those parents, I understand why have large consequences for them. Additionally, because they can conclude that the best environment in which to those small specialist schools assist children with the educate their child is one that is more constant than the greatest and most complicated difficulties, such changes primary-secondary model. I will refer to the change can cause a lot of stress that does not happen in a between primary school, which serves the ages of two normal school environment. I have tried to consider the to 11, and secondary school, which serves the age of issue in the light of future funding changes and how 11 upwards, as transition. Parents have described to me they might force a need for change. their uncertainty whether they want transition for their I have two questions for the Minister and a request child. It can be stressful. They have explained to me that for help. First, professionals take different views on their child’s needs are so complex that they feel that a whether a transition is required or advisable and parents two-to-19 environment might be better. It is not specifically feel differently about that. The assistance that we can about a fixed idea that their child should be in one give children with disabilities is changing all the time environment throughout that age range; rather, it is the and expertise is developing. I should be grateful to the idea that the transition should come at a time that is Minister if he confirmed whether the Department can right for the child and that there should be flexibility help us in Wirral with some expert advice on whether around the needs of the family rather than a transition to transition and how a two-to-19 environment might that is decided on in advance. assist children with profound and multiple learning 137WH Special Educational Needs (Wirral)9 JANUARY 2013 Special Educational Needs (Wirral) 138WH difficulties with the most complex of needs. Will he say record my appreciation and praise for the dedication how we can access more advice and whether there are that they show as carers. Sometimes, it is easy to national specialists who may be able to help us in the underestimate that role, but it is not something that Wirral? they have to do on the odd day; they do it day to day, I am conscious that nearby authorities do things continuously. The short-break money that we have slightly differently and that schools throughout the provided—about £800 million—is an important part of country may have already looked at how to assist children the package available to parents, such as those of children with profound and multiple learning difficulties and at the Lyndale school, to ensure that they get the considered whether they should transition. Ministers support that they need, so that they can continue to and civil servants may be aware of other factors, in provide the best possible care for their children. terms of the advances that are being made helping It is not for the Government to interfere in the children facing the most difficult educational challenges. circumstances surrounding the school and the process Secondly, how will the new funding arrangements that Wirral council is also grappling with. The school affect the smallest schools? No doubt, the Government has other freedoms available to it and may want to will be aware of other small schools—for example, consider applying to the Secretary of State for the those in rural areas where it is not realistic to ask freedom to change its status as a school through the children to travel—when considering the new funding academy process. On the evidence and expert advice arrangements. I should also like the Minister to say how about the periods of transition and what the right this impact can be borne in mind in relation to schools, model is for certain children who require specialist such as Lyndale, where parents already deal with significant provision in an educational environment, there is a challenges: their working lives are made more complex wealth of research out there and differing views about by their family’s needs and the rest of their family life whether such provision should be in the mainstream or will be affected by the needs of one child. It is our duty, in a specialist environment. as politicians, to understand those needs and do everything The hon. Lady requested support from the Department that we can to support those children and the wider so that she and her constituents might be better informed family and help parents—having listened to and understood about what works best. I can offer an arrangement for them—to make decisions about their child’s education. her to meet officials in my Department, particularly the Funding changes will affect the smallest schools the professional SEN adviser, to discuss the matter in a most, particularly special schools, and parents of children little more detail, providing her with opportunities to at such schools will have more stresses, and so on, to explore it further and to provide some answers to questions think about than the average family. I should be grateful asked by her and her constituents about how the best to the Minister if he said what has been considered in provision for the children can manifest itself in the type respect of how funding changes will affect schools, of environment that is available to them locally. including the Lyndale in my constituency. We are going through a period of funding reform, as We have a responsibility to give care and attention to the hon. Lady mentioned, but the funding arrangements children with profound and multiple learning difficulties, for special schools will combine place funding with to understand them as individuals and to try to give funding for each individual child, so there is still emphasis them the most expert care that we can. To do that we on the individual child in deciding the overall sum that need to listen to their parents, who know them best and would be available to meet the needs and support required understand their needs. We in the Wirral are wrestling for that child through education. That place funding with the somewhat technical point about whether there protects schools, and funding for individual children should be transition. I ask the Minister and the Government ensures that resources are used to meet their needs. It is what expertise they can help to bring to bear in that incumbent on local authorities to have a good dialogue regard, so that we can resolve this question and truly with all schools, including the Lyndale special school, give the parents of those children the best possible to ensure that the transition—we are in the realms of service. transition—from the current funding regime to the new one does not undermine the potential for the Lyndale special school to provide what the hon. Lady has said is 4.14 pm an expert environment—I have no reason to think that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education that is incorrect—for some children with profound (Mr Edward Timpson): I congratulate the hon. Member difficulties. for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) on securing this The hon. Lady mentioned parents’ struggles with the important debate. As a near neighbour, I thank her SEN system—that reflects the outcome of the consultation both for showing a profound interest in what is happening and Green Paper exercise that the Government have in her constituency with regard to the provision for undertaken—particularly parents’ and children’s views children and young people with special educational being taken seriously, and being heavily involved in needs and for discussing the issue more generally, as it the initial assessment process and the delivery and affects the close to 1.62 million children who are designated implementation of what, at the moment, is called a as having special educational needs. statement but will be called an education, health and Before I say what the Government are doing to deal care plan. with current systemic difficulties, I should like to deal The hon. Lady also mentioned points of transition, with the two points that the hon. Lady raised. Clearly, where children move from one part of their education she has taken a keen interest in the situation at Lyndale to another, particularly at key stages, such as from special school and has spoken to parents who are primary to secondary and on to further education. At caring for their children with profound difficulties and the moment, there is a separate system. A hallmark of disabilities and coping with those things. I put on the reforms that we want to introduce is that it will 139WH Special Educational Needs (Wirral)9 JANUARY 2013 Special Educational Needs (Wirral) 140WH

[Mr Edward Timpson] that parents want to see, including in the Wirral, we have set up 20 pathfinders across 31 local authorities. become a single system, with a single assessment process. That is not happening in the hon. Lady’s local authority Many parents, including those in the hon. Lady’s and, indeed, not in mine, but it is close by in Wigan, constituency, will welcome that. Oldham, Manchester, Rochdale and Trafford, as well as The Government’s aim is that all children and young elsewhere throughout the country. people with special educational needs or disabilities The aim is to improve choice and control within the have the opportunity to reach their full potential in system for parents and young people to help to drive school and that they are supported to make a successful better outcomes. The findings from those programmes transition into adulthood, whether in employment, further are informing not only the legislation, the code of or higher education, or training. With the current system practice and the regulations that will follow, but how we not working well enough for parents or for children and can improve practice on the ground. The pathfinders young people with SEN, it is important that we address will be trailblazers and champions for innovative that. It has been more than 30 years since the last approaches, so that other local authorities nearby can reform to the SEN system. adopt similar tactics to improve their offer to young As the hon. Lady said, the system often works against people with SEN and disabilities. the wishes of families, and although it is now much To ensure that that process continues after the Bill more child-centred, we must not forget that parents and has been through both Houses, we decided to extend carers form much of that child’s life and we must ensure the pathfinder programme for an additional 18 months, that they also get the necessary support. Such support is which will give us a richer wealth of experience to draw often identified too late. Families are made to put up on to ensure that we get the legislation right, that it with a culture of low expectations about what their delivers on the ground and that there is no disconnect child can achieve at school, and that is illustrated by the between what we do in Westminster and what actually huge gap in attainment at every key stage between happens in schools throughout the country. children with SEN and their peers. That gap is persistent, We are developing a new system that will be built on a and although there have been some notable improvements much stronger and more streamlined assessment process, in recent years, especially with the assistance of the which importantly, as the hon. Lady mentioned, includes achievement for all model—the evidence-based model parents, children and young people. We are even piloting supported and funded by the Government that is now the prospect of children themselves being able to appeal in more than 1,000 schools—the gap is still too great, against a decision made by a local authority not to and more needs to be done to bridge it. provide them with an education, health and care plan or In the Green Paper, “Support and aspiration: A new not to adhere to a request for an assessment. That is approach to Special Educational Needs and Disability”, quite an advance on the current system. We want to published last year, a strong case was made for moving ensure that the assessment process is integrated and that to a single system that goes not only from two to 19, but it is a quality assessment. That will help to ensure that, from nought to 25, because early and continued support right from the start, parents and children are confident is more likely to produce the outcomes that we want for that their support will reflect what they believe is necessary children and young people who find themselves needing and that it is provided by professionals who are talking that extra support to achieve the educational attainment to and engaging with each other and delivering it collectively, that we all know they can reach. rather than in individual silos, as happened too often in It is important not only that the system picks up and the past. identifies as early as possible the support that is needed, In Solihull, for example, the pathfinder has already but that that support is put in place as quickly as made progress on improving the assessment process, possible and in a way that is as integrated and co-ordinated which has been shortened from 26 weeks to 14 weeks. In as is achievable. One of the flaws in the current system is Southampton, a single assessment process for the education, that it has been too fragmented. The hon. Lady pointed health and care plan is being developed and tested for out that many parents and young people are assessed children with high medical needs but no significant incessantly and that that assessment is duplicated; they educational needs. We sometimes work on the premise have to repeat themselves again and again. We want a that a child with special educational needs and disabilities much more integrated approach in which education, can be categorised one way or the other, but there is a health and social care work closely together. They will whole spectrum of children in that group. The hon. have a duty to co-operate and to commission their Lady mentioned the Lyndale school, which deals with services jointly, to ensure that the delivery of those children with particularly profound difficulties, and it services is much more joined up and that parents do not should look at this good innovation as it starts to have to grapple with a system that is incoherent and develop its own assessment and planning process for difficult to navigate. children in its area. We have drafted legislation that was published in It is also important for those children who are not September. We have just been through a process of statemented at the moment and who would not necessarily pre-legislative scrutiny, which involved my having the require in future the support that an education, health pleasure of presenting myself in front of the Select and care plan delivers that the transparency and Committee on Education to give evidence. That process accountability of the services on offer to other children culminated in the Education Committee’s report, which with special educational needs are clear to parents and I encourage the hon. Lady to look at, and the response that they know how to seek redress should they not will shortly be provided to the Committee. In conjunction receive the services that they require. That is why we are with that and to ensure that the measures are not only a going to improve the local offer and make it transparent legislative vehicle but make the changes on the ground both in content and delivery. Parents will be involved in 141WH Special Educational Needs (Wirral) 9 JANUARY 2013 142WH its formulation, and we are looking at how the monitoring Antibiotics (Intensive Farms) will include parents to ensure that they are far more in control of the services being delivered locally. 4.30 pm The work does not stop there. So much more needs to be done to the system outside the legislative process. We Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): It is a pleasure, have funded more than 10,000 SEN co-ordinators. We Mrs Main, to serve under your chairmanship. I will make have increased the amount spent on further education a short speech, and allow as much time as possible for around special educational needs and additional learning interventions. support. We have launched a £3 million trial of supported Clearly, everyone is concerned about the rise in internships, so that children and young people with the number of cases of bacterial infection, whether special educational needs who want to go on to further campylobacter, MRSA or blood poisoning from E. coli, education have the necessary support to enable them to cases of which have increased by nearly 400% in the last do so. 20 years. What makes the problem so much more alarming We have a packed programme to ensure that we move is the accompanying rise in resistance to those infections. to a system that deals with some of the fundamental As the Minister will know, antibiotic resistance is a issues that the hon. Lady has raised, such as ensuring growing worldwide problem. We cannot yet call it a crisis that parents have knowledge at their fingertips and are in the UK, but some indications are ominous, particularly involved in the process of ensuring that their child as no new antibiotics are in the development pipeline to receives the necessary support throughout their whole treat some important infections. It should be noted educational experience and before and after from nought that, when resistance problems occur, the cost to the to 25, so that they achieve the outcomes that we all NHS of successfully treating a patient may increase want. between 10 and 100 times. Clearly, issues have been raised that are specific to The Government’s assessment is that most of the Wirral and the school in which the hon. Lady has taken resistance problems that affect UK patients can be a keen interest. In a spirit of being as co-operative and blamed on the inappropriate use of antibiotics in human helpful as possible, I am sure that she will be delighted medicine. I am sure that is true, but the antibiotics used to take up my offer to come and meet officials and in veterinary and human medicine are closely related, professionals in my Department who, if they cannot and a growing body of evidence indicates that, for some advise her on her specific point, may be able to point serious infections, the inappropriate use of antibiotics her in the direction of information to give her and her on farms leads to the development of resistance among constituents the confidence that they are in a better farm animals that can and does pass to humans. position to understand and challenge the local authority Sir Liam Donaldson, former chief medical officer, starkly on its approach. acknowledged that in his annual report three years ago in 2009, when he said of antibiotics: Finally, the hon. Lady’s constituents may want to consider the fact that the new system will enable every “every inappropriate or unnecessary use in animals or agriculture parent and young person to name a school in their plan, is potentially signing a death warrant for a future patient.” which may help them to obtain the provision that they For far too long, the link between the overuse and want for their children throughout their education and misuse of antibiotics in intensive farming and the serious beyond. threat from antibiotic resistance have been utterly ignored. For example, although I welcomed last year’s public warning from the current chief medical officer—

4.32 pm Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.

4.42 pm On resuming—

Zac Goldsmith: I had just quoted Sir Liam Donaldson, on “a death warrant for a future patient”, as a result of the overuse of antibiotics, and I had complained that the British Government have routinely ignored the link between antibiotics in intensive farming and the public health threat. I was about to cite the current chief medical officer, Professor Dame Sally Davies, on the growing problems of resistant strains of bugs, as well as the Health Protection Agency in November. It was striking that the message focused 100% on over- prescribing by doctors, with zero mention of the use of antibiotics in the livestock industry. Similarly, when I tabled a parliamentary question to the Department of Health on what funding it provided for research into drug-resistant bacteria, the answer from the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the 143WH Antibiotics (Intensive Farms)9 JANUARY 2013 Antibiotics (Intensive Farms) 144WH

[Zac Goldsmith] were resistant. It is worth noting also that in 2008, the European Food Safety Authority said: hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich “Amajor source of human exposure to fluoroquinolone resistance (Dr Poulter), explicitly mentioned hospital-acquired via food appears to be poultry”. infections, but not the use of antibiotics in farming. I Clearly, antimicrobials should be used to treat sick was encouraged, however, by a reply from the then animals, and I do not think anyone would argue against Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the that. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), when I asked him about the link between E. coli resistance to antibiotics and record antibiotic usage on farms. He Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the said: hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Does he feel that the use by the farming sectors—whether pig, poultry “Indeed, I was interested to see analysis some years ago of the or beef—of antibiotics is unnecessary, because there is a extent of antibiotic resistance in hospitals in the Netherlands. blanket use, rather than reacting to disease? Does he Resistance was clearly much more prevalent in parts of Friesland where there was much greater antibiotic usage in farming. I feel that that has a direct impact on us as human therefore completely understand, and my colleagues in DEFRA beings? Many people come to me and say that the understand this too. Just as we are looking for the responsible and antibiotics are not working, and they are getting three appropriate prescribing of antibiotics in the health service, my doses from the doctor. Is that feeding off what is colleagues feel strongly about the proper use of antibiotics in happening? farming.”—[Official Report, 17 July 2012; Vol. 548, c. 842.] However, since then, we have had a near complete clean Zac Goldsmith: Again, I absolutely agree with the sweep of Ministers at both Departments—the Department hon. Gentleman’s point, and I thank him for making it. of Health and the Department for Environment, Food I will come to that in more detail shortly. and Rural Affairs. There is no argument against treating sick animals with antimicrobials but, surely, not the most modern Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate and medically important ones, especially when other the hon. Gentleman on raising a very important subject. antibiotics, which are not as critically important in human Is his argument, at least in part, that the collaboration medicine, are available. I recognise that this topic does cross-departmentally, which should take place through not lend itself easily to tabloid news, but there is a real, the chief scientific advisers committee, is not happening, worrying chance that that could change. By overusing or is what they are considering simply not being taken antibiotics, we risk ruining for future generations one of proper notice of? the great discoveries of our species. In short, we risk entering the post-antibiotics age. Zac Goldsmith: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for My hon. Friend the Minister will know that some his intervention. I suspect that that is part of the problem, antibiotics have already been lost to resistance: for but as I will come to later, I think it is also the case that example, penicillin for staphylococcal wound infections, the agribusiness sector in this country has had a ampicillin for infections of the urinary tract and disproportionate impact on policy. That is a point that I ciprofloxacin for treating gonorrhoea. Many more are hope to impress during the debate. under threat, and new antibiotics are increasingly hard As I was saying, there has been a near clean sweep of to find and license. We are now using our reserve Ministers at both Departments, so this debate provides antibiotics, and worryingly, seeing the spread of resistance an opportunity to clarify Government policy. The to them as well. For example, rises in resistance, such as Government are right to insist on better infection control those seen for E. coli, force doctors to use carbapenems, in hospitals and changes in the way that antibiotics are which were previously the reserve antibiotics for use prescribed by doctors. However, other than the brief when other treatments had completely failed. However, answer that I quoted from the former Secretary of we are now using carbapenems much more and seeing State, there has been virtually nothing from the Government the spread of resistance to them as well. that could in any way encourage vets and farmers to be University of Cambridge researchers revealed the similarly prudent. Not surprisingly, therefore, there has first cases in UK livestock of a new strain of the been little progress; on the contrary, analysis by the Soil multi-resistant superbug MRSA. It is called ST398, and Association of the Government’s statistics indicates it has become endemic in European and north American that the overall use of antibiotics per animal on UK pig populations and has spread to poultry and cattle. It farms increased by 18% between 2000 and 2010, is significant because, unlike most strains of staphylococcus while the farm use of third and fourth-generation aureus found in farm animals, it is readily able to cephalosporins—drugs described by the Health Protection transfer to humans. If not checked, that is likely to lead Agency as hospital workhorses—increased by over 500%. to rising community-acquired MRSA, just at the time that hospital-acquired MRSA is falling, due to sterling Furthermore, recently published data from the Veterinary efforts by health professionals. Medicines Directorate show that sales of fluoroquinolone antibiotics for use in veterinary medicine over the past two years have been 70% higher than they were in 2000. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I It is worth noting that when fluoroquinolones were first congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important licensed for use in poultry in the UK in 1993, there was debate. In the light of the very real health risks and the no registered antibiotic-resistant campylobacter in people strong words from a former chief medical officer, as the who had not been treated with the antibiotics, but by hon. Gentleman has said, about the unnecessary use of 2007, almost half—46%—the campylobacter food antibiotics being nothing less than poisoning cases caused by the most common strain “a death warrant for a future patient”, 145WH Antibiotics (Intensive Farms)9 JANUARY 2013 Antibiotics (Intensive Farms) 146WH does he agree that we need a legally binding timetable the level of antibiotic-resistant bacteria in meats being for the phased ending of all routine, prophylactic, non- imported into the country are higher than in its domestic therapeutic use of antibiotics in animals? meat. Nearly half the tested samples of chicken meat imported into Denmark in 2011 contained resistant Zac Goldsmith: I do, and I will be coming to that bacteria. The Danish Government, quite rightly, have point as well, but I absolutely agree with the hon. taken their concerns to Brussels, complaining that their Lady’s intervention. national approach has been undermined by other EU states’ continued overuse of antibiotics. Clearly, we need to continue with efforts to reduce the inappropriate use of antibiotics by doctors, but the Almost certainly, excessive antibiotic use on farms is European Food Safety Authority was spot-on—I do linked to the intensive manner in which animals are not often say that—last year when it warned that kept. Improving animal health and welfare by limiting overcrowding and the worst excesses of factory farming “it is…of high priority to decrease the total antimicrobial use in must therefore become key components of the animal production in the EU.” Government’s antibiotic resistance strategy. Disease To date, the UK Government’s antibiotic resistance prevention should be achieved through good hygiene, strategy, as I have said, has focused exclusively on husbandry and housing, without recourse to the regular over-prescribing by doctors, with zero mention of antibiotics prophylactic use of antimicrobials—a point that has in the livestock industry. Although they have spent been made by two hon. Members. I recognise that money trying to understand why we are seeing a rise in factory farming interests have wielded enormous influence bacterial infections, they are spending nothing, as far as on Government policy for many years and that any I know, to understand the rise in resistance, which is move to restrict the use of antibiotics today will be clearly the issue of importance. fiercely resisted by them. The Department of Health is currently developing its new cross-Government, five-year antimicrobial resistance Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) strategy and action plan for 2013 to 2018, so I ask the (Con): Does my hon. Friend have any evidence to suggest Minister these questions today. Will she promise that it that this problem is more prevalent in what he describes will give significant consideration to the use of antibiotics as factory farming than in what I would call farming on farms and to the link between farm use and resistance? more generally? Will the Government work with the veterinary profession and the agricultural industry, as they have done in Zac Goldsmith: I thank my hon. Friend for his recent years with the medical profession? Does she intervention. I will come to that point in about 20 seconds agree that we need better data on antibiotic use, published if he does not mind, because I want to demonstrate the by antibiotic family and by animal species, as is already vigour with which the industry has in the past resisted done in France? If we do not know the type and and will continue to resist any change such as I have quantity of antibiotics used and how they are used, described. Indeed, I had a briefing yesterday from the there is very little chance of our being able to understand British Poultry Council that included some fascinating the emergence of resistance. statements. In it, the BPC says: Furthermore, will the Minister lobby vigorously her “There is no scientific evidence that intensive farming systems ministerial colleagues at DEFRA to take urgent action contribute more to the overall risk of antibiotic resistance than extensive farming systems.” to restrict the prophylactic use of antibiotics, to limit the prescription and use of antimicrobials for the herd On the contrary, two DEFRA-funded reports find that treatment of animals to cases in which a vet has assessed antibiotic resistance is roughly 10 times lower in organic that there is a clear clinical justification and to limit the chickens and pigs than in conventional equivalents. The use of critically important antibiotics to cases in which BPC says in the same report: no other type of antimicrobials will be effective? “The industry is not aware of any recent evidence that ESBLs”— Will the Minister call on DEFRA to ban the use of extended-spectrum beta-lactamases— fluoroquinolone antibiotics in poultry production to “(E.COLI) are increasing in chicken farms across the UK.” reduce the risk of antibiotic resistance in E. coli, campylobacter and other infections in humans? Incidentally, Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I would like it is worth pointing out that campylobacter is the most to pursue this point a little further. The reference made common cause of food poisoning in the UK, affecting then was to organic farming. I was an extensive farmer some 350,000 people a year, and poultry is the source of and I have always had the view that the sloppy use of between 50% and 80% of those cases. A ban of that sort antibiotics was every bit as bad in extensive farming as would bring the UK into line with the US, where the in intensive units. I can understand the point in relation Food and Drug Administration stopped the use of to organic farming, but not to extensive farming. those antibiotics in poultry in 2005, because of increasing resistance in campylobacter. Denmark, Finland and Zac Goldsmith: The difficulty is that it is very hard to Australia also do not use fluoroquinolones in poultry. measure antibiotic use in extensive farming of the sort All those countries have lower levels of resistance in that my hon. Friend has describes, whereas in organic humans. farming there is quite clear regulation—self-regulation, I mentioned Denmark, and it is worth taking a in effect—which enables that comparison to be made. moment to consider the Danish situation. The latest He is probably right, but I cannot authenticate what he Danish disease surveillance report showed that, although says, because the data simply do not exist. the presence of antibiotic-resistant bacteria in the country’s The second BPC quote that I read out cannot be true. pig population had decreased since the tighter restrictions The BPC must be aware of DEFRA’s statement last came into effect, including the banning of cephalosporins, year that as many ESBLs were found in chickens in the 147WH Antibiotics (Intensive Farms)9 JANUARY 2013 Antibiotics (Intensive Farms) 148WH

[Zac Goldsmith] shall say at the outset that, although I just about heard all the many questions that he asked me, I can say with first half of last year than in the entire previous year, so complete confidence that I fear that I will be unable to what it has said to me in its briefing simply is not true. answer any—well, a large number of them—in my The BPC also says: speech this afternoon, but I undertake to ensure that he “Antibiotics may only be used on a farm if they have been receives full written answers to them all. As you will prescribed by a veterinary surgeon”. understand, Mrs Main, and as I am sure he will too, it is impossible to answer them all in this short debate, But it knows that producers often go straight to the feed especially because it is such a technical matter, with so mill, which will write out the prescription, send it to the many important questions that require technical, detailed vet’s at the eleventh hour and put pressure on them to responses. sign it immediately. We know that because a number of vets have complained to the Veterinary Medicines I must begin by saying that of course we all recognise Directorate about just that. that antimicrobial resistance poses a threat to human and animal health. I can assure my hon. Friend and Finally, the BPC says: others that the Government take this resistance very “Scientific evidence increasingly recognises that the problem of seriously.DEFRA and its agencies have been collaborating antibiotic resistance in humans comes largely from the use of for many years with the Department of Health, the antibiotics in human medicine.” Health Protection Agency and the Food Standards That is true, as I have already acknowledged, but for Agency on this issue. The Government’s collective objective certain bacteria—salmonella, campylobacter and E. coli— is to ensure that antibiotic use in animals does not the farm use probably accounts for more than half the become a significant clinical problem for human health. problem. It certainly accounts for a very significant I am told that there is little evidence on antimicrobial chunk of the problem. With MRSA, it is probably resistance transmission routes from animals to humans. accounting at the moment for only a few per cent. of The concern is that if bacteria in food-producing and cases, but if it is allowed to get established in UK companion animals develop resistance to drugs used in livestock, that situation could very easily change, and human medicine, those could be transferred to humans dramatically. via food or through direct contact. The briefing adds, approvingly, that the use of growth- Controls in the veterinary sector need to be carefully promoting antibiotics was banned 10 years ago in this balanced to minimise undesirable animal welfare issues country. It is probably worth pointing out that that ban and not hamper the efficiency of UK food production came into force only in 2006 and was vigorously opposed in a way that could disadvantage the industry in relation by the BPC at the time. Perhaps for that reason, the to other countries where controls may be implemented British Government of the time, initially at least, was less well or less effectively enforced. Good farm the only EU member state Government to oppose the management, biosecurity measures and animal husbandry ban. That is another example, I would suggest, of the systems underpin the health and welfare of food-producing industry calling the shots on this issue. animals. When applied appropriately, they enable the I must acknowledge that, 12 months ago, the BPC use of antibiotics to be minimised. We all want and agreed to introduce a voluntary ban on the use of welcome that. cephalosporins in poultry production and to stop giving We agree that the routine use of antibiotics in animals fluoroquinolones to day-old chicks. That does not go is unacceptable. I am assured that relevant guidance nearly far enough, but it is an important step forward and regulation is given to the sector to make that and demonstrates an acknowledgement by the BPC, absolutely clear. I will ask my hon. Friend the Minister albeit a reluctant one, of the problem. of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural There is no excuse to delay. The warning has been Affairs, to consider whether current guidance on the there since 1945, when, on accepting his part of the responsible use of antibiotics can be strengthened to Nobel prize in medicine for the discovery and isolation make it clear that the routine administration of antibiotics of penicillin, Alexander Fleming said that is not acceptable. I am also told that intensive farming “there is the danger that the ignorant man may easily underdose systems do not necessarily use large amounts of antibiotics. himself and by exposing his microbes to non-lethal quantities of Some have high health status livestock and so use very the drug make them resistant.” limited quantities of antibiotics. If we continue to ignore this risk for fear of upsetting The Government fully appreciate that effective controls vested interests, we will be complicit in robbing future are needed in the environmental, agricultural, food generations of one of the great discoveries of our production, animal and human health sectors. Failure species and propelling us—apologies for repeating myself— to act promptly and comprehensively could mean that into a truly frightening, post-antibiotic age. It is surely we face impending problems with implications for animal time for the Government to act. health and welfare and knock-on effects for food supply and safety, as well as, ultimately, human health and Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): For clarification to patient safety. those participating in the debate, it will finish at 5.10 pm. Although the link between antimicrobial use in animals and the spread of resistance in humans is not well 4.57 pm understood, there is scientific consensus that the use of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health antimicrobials in human medicine is the main driving (Anna Soubry): It is a pleasure to serve under your force for antimicrobial-resistant human infections. The chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate my hon. Friend majority of resistant strains affecting humans are different the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) on from those affecting animals. Bearing that in mind, we securing the debate, which is on an important subject. I have developed an integrated strategy to tackle the 149WH Antibiotics (Intensive Farms)9 JANUARY 2013 Antibiotics (Intensive Farms) 150WH challenge of antibiotic resistance, and resistance to other Caroline Lucas: I am grateful to the Minister for her antimicrobials, such as antifungals. openness to looking at more of the evidence that the We have been working with DEFRA and other hon. Member for Richmond Park presented. Having stakeholders to develop a new UK five-year antimicrobial examined the greater body of evidence, will she also resistance strategy and action plan, which we aim to consider the need for legally binding measures as well as publish shortly. The strategy will address all sectors, more information and awareness raising? The trends including veterinary use. To have maximum impact, the are going in the wrong direction, and we therefore need new integrated strategy will focus on a wide range of legally binding measures. intervention measures to safeguard human and animal health, including: promoting responsible prescribing; improving infection prevention and control; raising Anna Soubry: I am sort of grateful for that intervention; awareness of the problem; improving the scientific evidence I fear that I could be in terrible danger of agreeing to do base; facilitating the development of new treatments; almost anything, and so would be able to do nothing strengthening surveillance, and strengthening collaboration, else, because I would spend most of my time on this. I data and technology. will do all that I can. It is very important. As individuals and parents, we all should be concerned, as many of us There is general agreement that responsible prescribing are, about what we eat and what we feed our children is central to slowing down the development of antimicrobial and loved ones. This is as much a public health issue as resistance in humans and animals. Antibiotics, used an animal welfare issue. responsibly, remain a vital part of the veterinary surgeons’ toolbox, without which animals suffering from a bacterial The Government have published a code of practice infection could not be treated effectively. The use of on the responsible use of medicines on the farm and a antibiotics in veterinary medicine is controlled by veterinary leaflet on antibiotics, which, like the above code, is on prescription and is equivalent to arrangements for humans. the Veterinary Medicines Directorate’s website. We just In that way, we are encouraging the responsible use of have to hope and pray that such things are read, but in antibiotics and minimising their routine use. my experience, responsible producers pay heed to all In addition, the use of antibiotics as growth promoters such advice. There are also regulations. has been banned in the EU since 2006, as my hon. We continue to work actively with the farming industry Friend the Member for Richmond Park informed us. In to promote the responsible use of antibiotics in farmed the dairy industry, if a cow has been treated with animals, and industry organisations have also developed antibiotics, the milk should be isolated, and there is guidance. Furthermore, I am pleased to say that the regular routine testing of tanks to ensure that there are Veterinary Medicines Regulations 2011 will be changed no traces of antibiotics. Those are some of the many this year to prohibit the advertising of antibiotic products checks in place to ensure that antibiotics do not get into to professional keepers of animals. In addition, as my the human food chain. hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park mentioned, from January 2012, the British Poultry Council introduced Zac Goldsmith: Antibiotic use on farms is increasing a voluntary ban on the use of certain critically important not decreasing, so despite the initiatives and efforts we antibiotics in chick production, which should be welcomed. have heard about, the trends are heading in the wrong direction. Will my hon. Friend commit on the record to Veterinary use of antibiotics is also being addressed reviewing and reading the references, with which I will at a European level. It forms a significant component of provide her at the end of the debate, for all the points I both the 2011 EU action plan against the rising threats made in my speech and checking the science behind from antimicrobial resistance and the 2012 EU Council them, so that she is certain that the brief she received conclusions. The EU legislation on veterinary medicines from her Department is accurate? is currently under revision, and the UK, with other member states and the Commission, is examining the Anna Soubry: I am more than happy to do all those available evidence to establish whether there is a need things. As my hon. Friend will appreciate, I am no for additional controls on antibiotics used in animals. expert in this field and would not pretend to be for one The Government will continue to press for measures to moment. I shall make a very important point: my strengthen controls on antibiotics that are critically briefing does not come from the Department of Health important for human health, to make it clear that they only; we work in collaboration with the Department for should be used for animals only when no effective Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. alternatives exist. One important thing about this debate is that my The Veterinary Medicines Directorate at DEFRA hon. Friend rightly asked for a Minister from the closely monitors the use of veterinary medicines in the Department of Health to respond, so I am not, as UK. It analyses samples from food producing animals others might have thought, someone from DEFRA. and their products for residues of veterinary medicines Many people are concerned about whether how an and environmental contaminants. There is no conclusive animal is treated has an impact on them if they consume scientific evidence that food-producing animals form a some or part of it. Although we might not always make reservoir of infection in the UK. Food is not considered too many friends in the farming industry, we are all a major source of infections resistant to antibiotics. responsible for ensuring that we know what we are Any bacteria associated with food or the environment putting into our bodies and feeding our families. We can be reduced by thorough washing and cooking. bear that responsibility, so we need good, informed advice. Many people, but often those with the financial As I mentioned, the scientific consensus is that veterinary means to do so, will not buy fresh meat unless they use of antibiotics is not a significant driver for human know its antecedents—that it has come from a good multiresistant infections. However, we are keen to see butcher and a good beast. greater improvements in prescribing in all sectors and 151WH Antibiotics (Intensive Farms)9 JANUARY 2013 Antibiotics (Intensive Farms) 152WH

[Anna Soubry] I undertake to write to any hon. Member who raised a question in the debate. Again, I congratulate my hon. are actively working to encourage that. A wide programme Friend and assure him that I will answer all his questions. of work to tackle antimicrobial resistance has been It now seems that I will read a great many documents under way across the UK in the human and animal and other evidence, but it is important work. If I feel health sectors for several years. Although much has that there is any need to make any changes, I will make been achieved, I fully acknowledge that there are a them. number of areas that require attention and more radical thinking, if we are to have an even greater impact. I am 5.10 pm confident that the new UK strategy will move us forward Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order in that respect. No. 10(13)). 17WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JANUARY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS

the recognised principles of good corporate governance. Written Ministerial I will inform the House of the outcome of the review when it is completed. Statements JUSTICE Wednesday 9 January 2013 Law Commission (Triennial Review) BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant): In March 2011 the Government Research Councils (Triennial Review) responded to the Public Administration Select Committee report “Smaller Government: Shrinking the Quango The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David state” setting out the coalition’s plans for reforming the Willetts): The coalition Government made a commitment public bodies sector. It includes the requirement to to review public bodies, with the aim of increasing undertake triennial reviews of Executive and advisory accountability for actions carried out on behalf of the non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs). state. The triennial review of the research councils is The Law Commission is an independent statutory one of the Department of Business, Innovation and body with a mandate to keep the law under review and Skills (BIS) reviews of non-departmental public bodies make recommendations for reform as appropriate. It (NDPBs) scheduled to commence during the second was established as in 1965 by the Law Commissions Act year of the programme (2012-13). The review will 1965. Its remit covers the law of England and Wales; commence at the beginning of January 2013. This is not Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own similar, a review of the policy relating to funding in research, to but separate, commissions. which the Government remain committed. To deliver the coalition Government’s commitment The review will be conducted as set out in Cabinet to transparency and accountability the Law Commission Office guidance, in two stages. will be subject to a triennial review. The Ministry of The first stage will: Justice, as the sponsoring Department, has today launched Identify and examine the key functions of the research a consultation, which will last until 6 February 2013, councils and assess how these functions contribute to the inviting views. In line with Cabinet Office guidance, the core business of BIS; review will consider the following: Assess the requirement for these to continue; the continuing need for the Law Commission—both its If continuing, then assess delivery options and where the functions and its form; and conclusion is that a particular function is still needed examine where it is agreed that it should remain, to review the control how this function might best be delivered, including a cost and governance arrangements in place to ensure that the and benefits analysis where appropriate; public body is complying with recognised principles of good If one of these options is continuing delivery through the corporate governance. research councils then make an assessment against the In conducting the triennial review, officials will be Government’s “three tests”: technical function; political engaging with a broad range of stakeholders and users impartiality; need for independence from Ministers. of the Law Commission. The review will be aligned If the outcome of stage 1 is that delivery should continue through research councils then the second stage of the with guidance published by the Cabinet Office: “Guidance project will be to ensure that it is operating in line with the on Reviews of Non Departmental Public Bodies”. The recognised principles of good corporate governance, using House will be notified of the conclusion of the review. the Cabinet Office “comply or explain” standard approach. When completed the report of the review will be Transforming Rehabilitation placed in the Libraries of both Houses. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (Chris Grayling): This Government are committed to an ambitious programme of social reform, even at a time of financial constraints. Major changes have already Building Regulations Advisory Committee been delivered in welfare and education to tackle the (Triennial Review) challenge of endemic welfare dependence and educational underperformance, particularly in deprived areas. In The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the coalition agreement, the Government also promised Communities and Local Government (Mr Don Foster): I ”to introduce a rehabilitation revolution” am today announcing the start of the triennial review of to tackle the unacceptable cycle of reoffending, and the Building Regulations Advisory Committee. Triennial today I am publishing a consultation paper entitled reviews are part of the Government’s commitment to “Transforming Rehabilitation: a revolution in the way ensuring that non-departmental public bodies continue we manage offenders”. to have regular challenge on their remit and governance This publication describes my proposals to reform arrangements. the way in which offenders are rehabilitated in the The review will examine whether there is a continuing community through a new focus on life management need for the committee’s function and its form. Should and mentoring support. I am also planning, for the first the review conclude there is a continuing need for the time, to extend rehabilitation to those released after committee it will go on to examine whether the committee’s serving sentences of less than 12 months, who currently control and governance arrangements continue to meet get no support but have the highest reoffending rates. 19WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JANUARY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

Reoffending has been far too high for far too long. This paper includes the Government’s response to the Despite significant increases in spending on probation March 2012 consultation “Punishment and Reform: under the previous Government, there has been little Effective Probation Services”. change in reconviction rates over the past decade. In Copies will be available in the Vote Office and the 2010, nearly half (47.5%) of prisoners were reconvicted Printed Paper Office and online at: within 12 months of release. Failing to divert offenders https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/ away from crime has a huge impact. The cost to the transforming-rehabilitation. Ministry of Justice of dealing with these offenders is considerable, with total expenditure on prisons and PRIME MINISTER offender management standing at £4 billion in 2011-12. But it is not only expenditure on offender management; UK G8 Presidency the National Audit Office estimated that the wider economic cost was as much as £13 billion in 2007-08. The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): The UK’s The proposals in this paper extend provision to a priority during our 2013 presidency of the G8 is to greater number of offenders and increase the focus on drive jobs, growth and prosperity in the global economy. rehabilitation. Given the challenging financial context, To achieve this, the UK will use its commitment to open we will need to increase efficiency and drive down costs economies, open Governments and open societies and to enable us to do this. I therefore intend to begin a work with our G8 partners to support free trade, tackle process of competition to open up the market and bring tax evasion and encourage greater transparency and in a more diverse mix of providers, delivering increased accountability. innovation and improved value for money. To ensure I have placed in the Libraries of both Houses a copy that the system is properly focused on reducing reoffending of the letter that I have sent to my fellow OS leaders and deploying more effective interventions, providers setting out in more detail the UK’s priorities. will in future only be paid in full when they reduce reconviction rates in their area. TRANSPORT We will not take any risks in protecting the public and Penfold Review the public sector probation service will retain ultimate responsibility for public protection and will manage directly those offenders who pose the highest risk of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport serious harm to the public—this group will include (Stephen Hammond): Today I am publishing a Government MAPPA cases. They will also continue to carry out risk response to the consultation that closed on 24 August assessments for each offender, advise the courts and detailing proposals to simplify the process of applying Parole Board and handle breach cases. The probation for the stopping up or diversion of a highway, where service performs a vital role in protecting the public and this is required for the purposes of development. managing risk—I am determined to preserve that. The main options presented in the consultation were The great majority of community sentences and to permit applications for a stopping up or diversion rehabilitation work will, however, be delivered by the order to be submitted at the same time as applying for private sector and voluntary organisations, which have planning permission and to devolve decision making to particular expertise in this area. I am also keen to the local authority level. ensure that probation professionals currently within The Government have decided not to devolve the existing structures have scope to play a full role in the stopping up and diversion order process to a local level. new rehabilitation provision. Providers will be commissioned Consultation responses suggested that any devolution to deliver community orders and licence requirements should be accompanied by a charging regime; additional for most offenders in broad geographic areas, and will costs and charges would be borne by both local authorities be paid by results to reduce reoffending. They will be and those making applications, with no guarantee of a expected to tackle the causes of reoffending and help simpler or faster process. The Government do not feel offenders turn their lives around, for example, by providing that placing additional burdens on local authorities and mentors and signposting to housing, training and costs on developers is right at this time. And the employment, and addiction and mental health services. Government are aware that the speed of processing applications for stopping up or diversion orders has Our reforms will make use of local experience, and increased considerably in the last year. Additionally, we integrate with existing local structures. We want to do not propose to reform or encourage a greater use of introduce a system which allows for closer alignment of section 116 of the Highways Act 1980. the variety of services which offenders use, through The Government continue to support the first option, co-commissioning with other Government Departments, to allow stopping up and diversion applications to be police and crime commissioners, and local authorities. made alongside planning applications. The Government Potential providers will have to evidence how they would consider this will remove a significant barrier to growth, sustain local partnerships in contracts. by speeding up the process and allowing a reduction of These proposals will make a significant change to the burdens on both applicants and local authorities, as system, delivering the Government’s commitment to both applications can be considered concurrently. real reform. Transforming rehabilitation will help to Legislation currently in Parliament, as part of the Growth ensure that all of those sentenced to prison or community and Infrastructure Bill, will give effect to this measure. sentences are properly punished while being supported This Government response will be available in the to turn their backs on crime for good—meaning lower Libraries of both Houses and on the Department’s crime, fewer victims and safer communities. website. 5P Petitions9 JANUARY 2013 Petitions 6P Petitions HOME DEPARTMENT

Wednesday 9 January 2013 Rohingya Community

OBSERVATIONS The Petition of Mr Ali and residents of Coldhurst and other parts of Oldham, Declares that the Petitioners believe that as a result of a recent attack on the Rohingya ethnic minority in June ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS 2012 there is now a humanitarian crisis in Burma and that more than 90,000 Rohingya have been displaced; Arpley Landfill Site further that the Petitioners believe that since 1962 no The Petition of residents of Warrington, Rohingya have been issued with birth certificates which renders them aliens to their own country and means Declares that the people of Warrington have put up they have no citizen’s rights and that innocent civilians with the Arpley landfill site and the traffic, smells and are being targeted because of their ethnic background; other undesirable side effects which it causes for long further that the Petitioners believe that this is a modern enough. ethnic cleansing and that it has been described as such The Petitioners therefore request that the House of by many independent journalists and NGO’s and that Commons urges the Department for Environment, Food the Rohingya require relief and aid. and Rural Affairs to take all reasonable steps to ensure that the site’s licence is not extended The Petitioners therefore request that the House of And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by David Commons urges the Government to cease its economic Mowat, Official Report, 19 November 2012; Vol.553, c. 413.] ties with Burma and to assist in providing aid for the displaced Rohingya of the region. [P001128] Observations from the Secretary of State for Environment, And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Food and Rural Affairs: Mr Michael Meacher, Official Report, 22 November 2012; Former DEFRA Minister, Lord Taylor of Holbeach Vol. 553, c. 834.] met the hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) in relation to Arpley landfill site in west Warrington. [P001138] The site operates under an environmental permit issued by the Environment Agency. The Environment Agency Observations from the Secretary of State for the Department is under a duty to carry out appropriate periodic inspections for International Development: and has a range of enforcement powers to assess and ensure compliance with the permit. The Agency takes UK Ministers and officials in the DFID office and enforcement action in accordance with its published British Embassy in Rangoon continue to lobby the Enforcement and Sanctions guidance. I understand that Government of Burma for a long-term solution to the following complaints and an odour assessment and gas plight of the Rohingya in Rakhine, including their right emission survey, the Environment Agency has warned to citizenship. Her Majesty’s Ambassador to Burma the operator and required remedial work to be carried visited Rakhine State after the violence in October, as out. Other improvements to the landfill gas management one of the first representatives of a foreign Government are also to be undertaken. to do so. Foreign Office Minister of State for Asia, It is understood that an application to extend the Hugo Swire, visited Rakhine State on 15 and 16 December. lifetime of the site but not the amount of waste to be He discussed the situation with Government Ministers, landfilled, has been submitted to Warrington Borough the UN Resident Coordinator, Rohingya leaders and Council. Revision to the site layout or the way the site is members from the Rakhine Investigative Commission. operated may also require a variation to the existing He also pushed for greater humanitarian co-ordination environmental permit. These are operational matters on the ground. for the planning authority and the Environment Agency. The UK is providing humanitarian assistance. Through It would not be appropriate for Ministers to intervene the Department for International Development (DFID), in the decisions made by these bodies. In the event of the UK has allocated £2 million of bilateral support to the operator making an appeal against a decision by the provide water, sanitation and nutrition to more than planning authority or the Environment Agency, the 58,000 people affected by the violence in Rakhine. The Secretaries of State for Communities and Local UK also provides essential humanitarian assistance through Government and the Department Environment Food core contributions made to multilaterals such as the EU and Rural Affairs respectively have an appellate role. and the UN. In the event of an appeal it is therefore important to be able to show that a Minister has acted, and has been Human Rights remain at the heart of the UK’s policy seen to act, fairly and even-handedly, by bringing an on Burma. We have not forgotten the many challenging unbiased, properly directed and independent mind to and complex issues facing Burma, including the need to consideration of the matter. Therefore, it is essential resolve ethnic conflict. It was only after very careful that the procedure remains fair and that I, as Secretary consideration that the British Government lifted their of State, avoid any potential appearance of bias by not policy of discouraging trade with Burma. This was becoming engaged in issues concerning particular both in recognition of progress in Burma and because applications or taking into account private representations. we think right kind of responsible trade and investment 7P Petitions9 JANUARY 2013 Petitions 8P will aid Burma’s transition. Additionally we have DFID has an extensive development programme in put responsible investment at the centre of our future Burma. None of the UK’s bilateral aid is provided commercial relationship with Burma. We want to encourage through central Government, only through United Nations investment that will benefit local communities and respect organisations, trusted international and local NGOs the local environment. and, where circumstances allow, at the township level. 269W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 270W

Mr Simon Burns: This information is published regularly Written Answers to on: http://www.hs2.org.uk/property Questions As of 1 January 2013 the number stood at 65.

Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Wednesday 9 January 2013 Transport how many valuations of properties accepted onto the HS2 Exceptional Hardship Scheme are (a) in dispute and (b) have been disputed. [135887] DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Mr Simon Burns: This information is not regularly Olympic Games 2012 collated and so is not readily available. HS2 and Department for Transport officials are now working to collate all Hugh Bayley: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister cases where applicants have disputed the offer price. As which events at the London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics soon as this has been done I will write to my hon. were attended by each Minister in his Office using Friend and place a copy of the letter in the Libraries of tickets or passes for which they did not pay personally; the House. and what the cost was of attending each such event for members of the public who used comparable seats or Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for had comparable access. [135659] Transport how many offers to buy a property accepted The Deputy Prime Minister: The Government pledged onto the HS2 Exceptional Hardship Scheme have been to publish these details following the Olympic and turned down. [135888] Paralympic Games and will do so shortly. Mr Simon Burns: To date there have been two cases Redundancy where home-owners have turned down an offer to buy a property accepted under the HS2 Exceptional Hardship Mr Weir: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister (1) how Scheme. In one case the Government had specified the many Civil Service posts have been made redundant by purchase price, in the other the offer to buy was declined his Department in each year since 1999; and what has before valuations were undertaken. been the cost of redundancies in each such year; [135462] Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) how many posts have been declared redundant Transport how many properties have been accepted by each of his Department’s executive agencies and onto the Exceptional Hardship Scheme since the non-departmental public bodies in each year since scheme began. [135890] 1999; and what has been the cost of those redundancies in each such year. [135463] Mr Simon Burns: This information is published regularly on: The Deputy Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member http://www.hs2.org.uk/property to the answer given by the Minister for the Cabinet As of 1 January 2013 the number stood at 100. Office and Paymaster General, the right hon. Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), on 8 January 2013, Official Report, column 194W. M6

David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for TRANSPORT Transport (1) what the current status is of the proposed M6 link road into Heysham; and when he expects work Employment Agencies on that road to begin and to be completed; [136232] (2) if he will introduce an access only provision to Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport the new slip road to be built in the reconfiguration of what the total spending on recruitment agencies by his Junction 34 on the M6 through to Halton. [136272] Department was in each month from July to December 2012. [135237] Mr Simon Burns: The design and operation of the Norman Baker: The Department for Transport uses revised M6 junction 34, including the proposed Halton the Government Procurement Services, Buying Solutions Link Road, was examined as part of Lancashire county contract to obtain temporary staff from recruitment council’s application for development consent for the agencies. The Department’s monthly expenditure on all Heysham to M6 Link scheme. The Secretary of State types of temporary staff is published monthly at: for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire Dales (Mr McLoughlin), received the examining http://data.gov.uk/dataset/dft-workforce-management- information authority’s report on this scheme last month and we are considering carefully his conclusions and recommendation. High Speed 2 Railway Line Under the Planning Act 2008 we are under a duty to decide the application by 19 March 2013. Subject to the Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for successful completion of all remaining statutory procedures Transport how many purchases of properties accepted and procurement, Lancashire county council estimate onto the HS2 Exceptional Hardship Scheme have been the construction will start in July 2013 and that the completed. [135886] scheme will open in December 2015. 271W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 272W

Olympic Games 2012 Norman Baker: In 2010-2011 the Department and its then seven executive agencies spent £16,605,053 on Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for contingent labour, agency (clerical and admin) staff, Transport which events at the London 2012 Olympics interim managers and specialist contractors. In 201-2012 and Paralympics were attended by each Minister in his the Department and its then seven executive agencies Department using tickets or passes for which they did spent £10,717,859. not pay personally; and what the cost was of attending each such event for members of the public who used Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport comparable seats or had comparable access. [135648] how many temporary staff have been recruited in his Department in each month from July to December Norman Baker: The Government pledged to publish 2012. [135236] these details following the Olympic and Paralympic Games and will do so shortly. Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has recruited a total of 98 temporary staff in the period July Procurement to December 2012. The Department averaged 17,550 permanent staff in this period, so these temporary Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport recruits represent under 0.6% of the Department’s (1) how many procurement officers are currently employed permanent workforce. by his Department; [135742] The monthly breakdown of recruitment is: (2) how many civil servants in his Department regularly July 2012: 30 deal with procurement services; [135743] August 2012: 22 (3) how many procurement officers in his Department September 2012: 12 have relevant procurement qualifications. [135744] October 2012: 14 November 2012:13 Norman Baker: As at 30th November 2012 there are 45 procurement officers employed by the central December2012: 7 Department for Transport. Of these, 19 have a full procurement qualification and 8 have a partial procurement qualification. HOME DEPARTMENT The Department undertakes a wide range of both large and small scale procurement and has many additional staff who are permitted to undertake procurement within COE Convention on the Protection of Children Against Departmental guidance. Sexual Exploitation and Sexual Abuse Redundancy Pay Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 11 July Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport 2012, Official Report, column 223W,on COE Convention what the total amount of redundancy pay paid to civil on the Protection of Children Against Sexual Exploitation servants in his Department was in each month from and Sexual Abuse, what progress her Department has July to December 2012. [135235] made in its discussions with other Government Departments on the ratification and implementation of Norman Baker: The total redundancy payments made that Convention. [135745] in each month from July to December 2012 for the Department for Transport, including its executive agencies Mr Jeremy Browne: Child sexual exploitation is an (Driving Standards Agency, Driver and Vehicle Licensing appalling crime. It is a form of child sexual abuse and Agency, Vehicle and Operator Services Agency, Vehicle tackling it remains an absolute priority for the Government. Certification Agency, Maritime and Coastguard Agency, The UK signed the Council of Europe’s convention Highways Agency and Government Car and Despatch on the protection of children from sexual exploitation Agency) are: and abuse in May 2008. Ratification is not a straightforward process, but officials across a number of Government Cost of redundancy payments Departments have been considering the steps that would Month (£) be required to ratify and implement the convention. July 71,573 Those discussions are continuing. August 539,082 September 400,515 Communications Data Bill (Draft) October 545,448 November 172,552 Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the December 321,054 Home Department pursuant to the Answer from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment Temporary Employment Relations and Consumer Affairs of 18 December 2012, Official Report, column 727W,on Communications Data Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Bill (Draft), how many representations she has received what amount his Department spent on interim staff as on the Draft Communications Data Bill; from which defined by the National Audit Office in (a) 2010-11 UK and international businesses she has received such and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. representations; and if she will make a statement. [135183] [135721] 273W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 274W

James Brokenshire: The Draft Communications Data The available information published relates to entry Bill was published on 14 June 2012 and has been clearance visas granted given in the following total: undergoing pre-legislative scrutiny by a Joint Committee Total number of applications for entry clearance visas issued of both Houses, and the Intelligence and Security to Belarusian and Ukrainian children in all categories in 2012: 846 Committee since that point. The Committees reported Information on entry clearance visas by nationality is on 11 December 2012. published as part of the quarterly Immigration Statistics, Throughout this process, the Home Office has received available from the Library of the House and at the representations from the Committees as well as a wide Department’s website: range of interested parties, including parliamentarians, http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- the communications industry, law enforcement, civil statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ liberties organisations and members of the public. Missing Persons We have an ongoing relationship with both UK and overseas-based communications service providers. There Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the has been a number of recent meetings at both ministerial Home Department when the evaluation of the Association and official level. As per the practice of previous of Chief Police Officers’ pilots of the revised definitions Governments, we do not comment on our relationships of missing and absent will be published; and whether it with individual .providers for reasons of national security will include an assessment of the risks related to children and commercial sensitivity. categorised as absent. [134378] Community Policing Mr Jeremy Browne [holding answer 18 December Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2012]: The evaluation of the Association of Chief Home Department what the neighbourhood policing Police Officers (ACPO) pilot is currently being finalised fund budget was in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) and will be published shortly. 2012-13. [135708] The aim of the pilots is to better protect children and Damian Green: The Neighbourhood Policing Fund vulnerable adults through a more proportionate and budget (NPF) in: risk based approach to the management of missing incidents, by better targeting of the initial police response. (a) 2010-11 was £341,000,000 The evaluation examines whether the pilots have achieved (b) 2011-12 was £340,000,000 these aims and includes an assessment of whether the (c) 2012-13 was £338,000,000 approach has had any adverse impact on a police force Drugs: Misuse ability to manage risk in the absence category, which includes both children and adults. Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will estimate the number of Police drug dealers operating in England and Wales; and if she will make a statement. [136042] Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many (a) police officers and Mr Jeremy Browne: This information is not collected (b) police community support officers have been employed centrally. (i) by Northumbria Police Authority, (ii) in South Tyneside, Entry Clearances (iii) in the North East and (iv) in the UK in each of the last five years. [135701] Mark Durkan: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will estimate income to be Damian Green: The number of police officers and police received in 2013 as a result of visa applications by community support officers employed by Northumbria Belarusian and Ukrainian children. [133093] police, South Tyneside, North East and England and Wales, as at 31 March 2008 to 2012 (full-time equivalent) Mr Harper: We are unable to predict the estimated can be seen in the following table. Figures for Scotland income to be received in 2013 as a result of visa applications and Northern Ireland are a matter for the Devolved by Belarusian and Ukrainian children. Estimates of Administrations. forecasted numbers of applications for 2013 are not Figures at basic command unit level ceased to be available. collected centrally by the Home Office from 2011-12.

Number of police officers and police community support officers employed by Northumbria Police, South Tyneside, North East and England and Wales as at 31 March 2008 to 20121, 2, 3 Police officers Police community support officers 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Northumbria 3,983 4,111 4,187 4,102 3,921 254 259 438 433 424 Police South Tyneside 341 357 326 319 — 24 27 37 45 — North East 7,307 7,455 7,419 7,189 6,813 585 628 806 785 765 England and Wales 141,859 143,770 143,734 139,110 134,101 15,805 16,507 16,918 15,820 14,393 1. This table contains full-time equivalent figures that have been rounded to the nearest whole number. 2. Figures at basic command unit level (South Tyneside) ceased to be collected from 2011-12. 3. The number of police officers and police community support officers within the North East is made up of Cleveland, Durham and Northumbria police forces. 275W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 276W

Police: Electronic Equipment Notwithstanding, the Government Equalities Office has now given clear guidance to Whitehall departments Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for the that equality impact assessments are not a legal requirement; Home Department if she will publish the guidelines they are resource intensive and take staff away from issued to police forces in England and Wales for the use planning and delivering important public services of long-range acoustic devices. [135932] I recently wrote to local authorities on the same theme. The letter can be found online at: Damian Green: Long range acoustic devices are not www.gov.uk/government/publications/reducing-statutory- currently approved for use by police in England and burdens-equality-impact-assessments Wales. Police: Freedom of Expression Families: Disadvantaged

Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for the Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department what assessment she has made of Communities and Local Government who has been the implications for her policy on freedom of speech appointed to the post of troubled families co-ordinator for employees of police services who are opposed to in each local authority area. [135320] same sex marriage of the case between Mr Adrian Smith and Trafford Housing Trust. [135051] Brandon Lewis: 143 troubled families co-ordinators have been appointed to date and eight more are expected Damian Green: I have not made any assessment of to be recruited in the near future. A list of the 143 local the effect of this case, which was about the contractual authorities has been deposited in the Library of the relationship between an employee and his employer, House. involving the use of social media. Fire Service College

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Early Intervention Grant Communities and Local Government with reference to the sale of the Fire Service College, whether he has Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for made an estimate of any additional costs which will be Communities and Local Government with reference to borne by fire and rescue authorities as a result of the the Local Government Finance Settlement 2013-14, sale; and whether the commitments made by Capita how much each local authority will receive in lieu of that the college will continue in use as a national the Early Intervention Grant in (a) 2013-14 and (b) training college for fire and rescue authorities as well as 2014-15; and what the comparable allocation was in (i) continuing to offer wider national resilience and 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11, (iii) 2011-12 and (iv) 2012-13. emergency services exercises are time-limited. [135478] [135839] Brandon Lewis: We do not expect there to be any Brandon Lewis: Details of the full provisional Local additional costs to be borne by fire and rescue authorities Government Finance settlement for 2013-14 are currently as a result of the sale of the Fire Service College. The out for consultation and are available at: commitments made by Capita that the college will www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/1314/settle.htm continue in use as a national training college for fire and The table at the following link gives details of Early rescue authorities as well as continuing to offer wider Intervention Grant in the Start Up Funding Assessment national resilience and emergency services exercises are in 2013-14: not time-limited. www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/1314/ 1314SUFAbreak.xls John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for The Early Intervention Grant was introduced in 2011-12 Communities and Local Government with reference to and details of allocations of Early Intervention Grant the sale of the Fire Service College, how much is due to for 2011 -12 and 2012-13 can be found at: be raised as a result of the sale; and whether the www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/1112/specgrant1112/ proceeds of the sale will be retained and used fully index.htm within his Department. [135479] www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/1112/specgrant1213/ index.htm Brandon Lewis: The final consideration will be settled on sale completion and decisions on the use of the sale Equality proceeds will be taken at that time. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much his John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Department spent on equality impact assessments Communities and Local Government what the annual since May 2010; and under what cost headings such budget of and expenditure on the Fire Service College funds were spent. [135441] was in each of the last 10 years. [135480]

Brandon Lewis: Such a retrospective estimate could Brandon Lewis: The following figures are taken from only be calculated at disproportionate cost. the Fire Service College’s Annual Accounts. 277W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 278W

Local Government: Translation Services £000 Total income Total operating costs Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State 2011-12 16,879 19,319 for Communities and Local Government whether he 2010-11 18,471 22,463 plans to issue new guidance to local authorities on their 2009-10 21,727 23,757 expenditure on translation and interpretation services; 2008-09 21.579 23,794 and if he will make a statement. [135838] 2007-08 22,614 23,539 2006-07 22,595 23,351 Mr Foster: Our publication ‘50 ways to save: examples 2005-06 22,380 23,536 of sensible savings in local government’ makes it clear 2004-05 23,611 23,985 that there are savings for local taxpayers from stopping 2003-04 19,114 20,833 translating documents into foreign languages. Publishing 2002-03 17,578 18,681 documents in English helps promote the integration, of local communities.

Fire Services: Job Satisfaction Olympic Games 2012

Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what steps he is Communities and Local Government which events at taking to improve morale amongst firefighters. [136025] the London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics were attended by each Minister in his Department using tickets or Brandon Lewis: Wholetime firefighting jobs are popular passes for which they did not pay personally; and what and remain in high demand. In London in 2011, there the cost was of attending each such event for members were 8,764 applications for around 150 wholetime firefighter of the public who used comparable seats or had comparable posts. In addition, between 1 April 2011 and 31 March access. [135656] 2012 in England, only 119 wholetime firefighters out of 28,245 (0.42%) resigned to take employment outside of Brandon Lewis: The Government pledged to publish fire and rescue service. The maintenance of morale these details following the Olympic and Paralympic amongst firefighters is the responsibility of their employers, Games and will do so shortly. the individual fire and rescue authority. Planning Permission Fraud Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for and Local Government what proportion of areas identified Communities and Local Government what the (a) as developing neighbourhood plans to cover in whole number and (b) cost of instances of fraud in his or in part cover one of the (a) 10 per cent, (b) five per Department was in each month since May 2010. cent and (c) one per cent most deprived wards in [135398] England. [135845]

Brandon Lewis: There have only been two cases of Nick Boles: This information is not centrally collected. fraud, both in July 2010 to a total value of £5,105. Monies were fully recovered and therefore there was no Redundancy loss to the Department. Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Local Government: Freedom of Expression and Local Government how many posts have been declared redundant by each of his Department’s executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies in each Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for year since 1999; and what has been the cost of those Communities and Local Government what assessment redundancies in each such year. [135469] he has made of the implications for his policy on freedom of speech for local government staff who are opposed to same sex marriage of the case between Brandon Lewis: The number of posts declared redundant Mr Adrian Smith and Trafford Housing Trust. [135050] by the Department’s executive agencies and non- departmental public bodies including redundancy costs Brandon Lewis: I refer my hon. Friend to the letter from in each year since 1999 is not held centrally by this the then Minister for Housing, the right hon. Member Department and could be provided only at disproportionate for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), of 2 November cost. 2011, a copy of which is available in the Library of the House, and which can be found online at: Senior Civil Servants http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2011- 1728/DEP2011-1728.pdf Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for This outlines my Department’s stance on the issue. In Communities and Local Government whether the pay essence, we strongly support freedom of speech and of his Department’s senior staff has been cut since freedom of religion. May 2010. [135400] 279W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 280W

Brandon Lewis: There has been a freeze on pay for Brandon Lewis: DCLG’s new centrally managed video- senior staff across the civil service since March 2010, conferencing service was fully implemented in September and the Department’s pay bill for senior staff has 2012. reduced significantly as the numbers of senior staff in The Department does not record the purpose of each the Department has reduced following completion of meeting individually but calls were exclusively for business the Department’s restructuring programme in October purposes including training. In the last quarter alone 2011. (September to December 2012), 251 video conferencing For comparison purposes, the Department’s number calls were made of which 84 were incoming for which of senior staff at the following points was as follows: there is no charge. Of the 167 outgoing calls made 165 were within DCLG’s inclusive call tariff and the two Number remaining external calls totalled around two minutes in duration at a total cost of 12p. March 2009 132 We do not have detailed records of calls prior to March 2010 113 September 2012. March 2011 109 March 2012 90

We have also cut senior civil service bonuses and reformed the civil service pension scheme to require WOMEN AND EQUALITIES higher employee contributions. In addition, Ministers have cut their salaries and then Procurement frozen them for the rest of this Parliament. Jon Trickett: To ask the Minister for Women and Staff Equalities (1) how many procurement officers are currently employed by her Department; [135739] Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) how many civil servants in her Department regularly Communities and Local Government whether his deal with procurement services; [135740] Department shares any senior members of its staff (3) how many procurement officers in her Department with other Government departments. [135457] have relevant procurement qualifications. [135741]

Brandon Lewis: Yes. As part of the Department’s Maria Miller: Since 4 September 2012 responsibility continued commitment to value for money, it currently for the Government Equalities Office, formerly within shares two senior staff with other Departments—the the Home Office, moved to the Department for Culture, director for internal audit is shared with the Department Media and Sport (DCMS). Responses to these questions for Business, Innovation and Skills; and the deputy by DCMS will therefore include the information requested director for property asset management is shared with relating to the Government Equalities Office. the Department for Education. Sir Bob Kerslake also combines his role as Permanent Secretary of the Department with that of Head of the Civil Service. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT

Urban Areas Arts

Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Communities and Local Government whether all town Media and Sport what estimate she has made of the teams eligible for town team partner funding applied economic benefit to each English region of (a) the UK for such funding; and whether those town teams film industry, (b) the UK music industry and (c) the constituted after the deadline for applications for such UK design industry in each of the last five years. funding are able to access such funds. [134816] [135841]

Mr Prisk: 336 town teams out of a potential 393 Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and registered, to become a town team partner and now Sport (DCMS) has not made any estimate of the economic have access to the support package we have provided, benefit to each English region of the film, music and which includes £10,000 for each town team to help design industries over the last five years and has no deliver their proposals. Only town teams who were plans to do so. However, DCMS publishes the Creative unsuccessful in the Portas Pilot competition were eligible Industries Economic Estimates on an annual basis which to apply to become town team partners. contain data on the overall economic impact of the creative industries by sector for the UK and on the number of creative enterprises and local units by region Video Conferencing since 2009.

Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Communities and Local Government on how many Media and Sport what proportion of employees in the occasions his Department has used video conferencing UK (a) film, (b) music, (c) design, (d) arts, (e) since May 2010; and what the (a) purpose and (b) cost tourism and (f) heritage industries are university was of each such occasion. [135440] graduates. [135843] 281W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 282W

Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and Procurement Sport (DCMS) does not hold records of the proportion of employees that are university graduates in the industries Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, requested. However, we are aware that independent Media and Sport how many procurement officers are organisations monitor and report on the skills levels currently employed by her Department. [135736] within their sectors, for example the Sector Skills Councils, and the Office for National Statistics record data on Hugh Robertson: The Department currently employs employment by industry and qualification via the Labour three procurement officers, two of which are on loan Force Survey (LFS). from other Government Departments. The procurement officers seek value for money for Deloitte the Departments annual £26 million third party spend on procured goods and services. In addition they support John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Department’s major broadband projects and ALB Culture, Media and Sport how much her Department procurement activity. paid to Deloitte for consultancy services in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012. [135988] Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how many civil servants in her Hugh Robertson: The Department for Culture, Media Department regularly deal with procurement services. and Sport has paid £52,474.54 to Deloitte for consultancy [135737] services in 2010 but has not paid them anything in either 2011 or 2012. Hugh Robertson: Within the Department, three civil servants regularly deal with procurement services. Mobile Phones Radio Frequencies Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what recent progress has been made Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, with the Mobile Infrastructure Project; and if she will Media and Sport if she will consider encouraging licence make a statement. [134725] holders to make spectrum available to operators who wish to make use of micro technology. [134483] Mr Vaizey: The Mobile Infrastructure Project has now secured EU state aid clearance and the Department Mr Vaizey: On 22 November Ofcom published its is continuing to work constructively with the mobile consultation on TV white spaces. The consultation closes network operators to enable delivery of the project. on 10 January and is available on the Ofcom website. The presentation included within the accompanying Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, information to the consultation, notes that Ofcom’s Media and Sport if she will consider the merits of response to the DCMS discussion paper on the reviewing levels of use of micro cell technology to Communications review indicated that there were clear support mobile communications in public and private benefits in using database supported frequency management spaces. [134748] tools to make spectrum available in a more dynamic market. DCMS and Ofcom will continue to work together Mr Vaizey: In general, the uses of particular technologies to explore mechanisms by which spectrum could be within mobile networks are commercial and technical made available to the market in such a way as to meet considerations for the mobile operators to consider. those particular market needs. However, the use of microcell technology to support mobile communications in public spaces has been limited Redundancy to date. The imminent auction of the 2600 MHz band for 4G services may make microcell applications more Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, practical for operators to implement in the future. Media and Sport how many civil service posts have Femtocells, which allow mobile phone calls to be been made redundant by her Department in each year transferred over broadband, are typically deployed in since 1999; and what has been the cost of redundancies private residences or business locations. As of June/July in each such year. [135466] 2012 there were over 200,000 in use in the UK with take-up in rural areas over three times higher than Hugh Robertson: The following table shows the number take-up in urban areas. However, these devices can of posts that have been reduced as result of early usually only serve a small number of individual devices departure exercises that the Department ran in the (typically between four and eight), which have to be financial years 2010-11 to 2011-12. registered with the femtocell as you would for a private wi-fi hub. Number of posts Financial year Total costs (£) made redundant I am also informed that the number of public wi-fi hotspots operated by the main providers—BT (excluding 2011-12 1,906,281 26 BT WiFi provided from BT residential or business 2010-11 2,891,000 44 hubs), Virgin, The Cloud (Sky) and O2 continues to grow. As of the middle of 2012 they operated over The Department did not run any early departure 16,000 public hotspots between them, with those within exercises from 1999 to 2010 to reduce the number of London being extensively used during the Olympics. posts. The Department does not hold a central record 283W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 284W of individuals who exited under voluntary redundancy Number of temporary staff terms before 2010, but no posts during this time were recruited made redundant. October 5 Redundancy Pay November 3 December 2 Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Total 22 Media and Sport what the total amount of redundancy pay paid to civil servants in her Department was in each month from July to December 2012. [135238] HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Hugh Robertson: The following table shows the total amount of redundancy payments made to civil servants Members in the Department in each month between July and December 2012. Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Total costs (£) Commons Commission if he will estimate the cost to July 496,981.15 the public purse of an hon. Member in 2011. [136217] August 53,138.50 John Thurso: There is no established methodology for September 0 calculating the cost of an hon. Member in a year. October 0 November 0 The House of Commons has two estimates. The December 226,425.52 administration estimate covers items such as the running Total 776,545.17 of the Chamber and committees, the upkeep of the parliamentary estate, the Library, visitor services, education, The Department launched a voluntary exit exercise security, catering, ICT, finance and human resources. in September 2010, January 2012 and in September The Members estimate covers items such as costs arising 2012. The purpose of this exercise is to reduce our pay from the Members’ pension scheme, funding for opposition bill expenditure to achieve a 50% reduction in administration parties, and IT equipment for Members. In 2011/12 costs by 2013, thereby contributing towards reducing the total expenditure across these two estimates was the Government deficit. We have calculated the pay bill £240 million. savings to be £3 million. A significant proportion of this expenditure relates Sick Leave to the upkeep and conservation of the estate, including the Palace of Westminster (which is part of a World Heritage site), services to the public, and security. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, It should be noted that these figures exclude hon. Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 10 December Members’ salaries and expenses, which are a matter for 2012, Official Report, column 137W,on sick leave, if she the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. will make an assessment of the contribution mindfulness- based practice can make to reducing workplace stress The hon. Member may wish to contact the Director and staff absences in her Department. [136216] of Finance, who will be happy to discuss what other data could be provided that might assist him. Hugh Robertson: There are currently no plans to make an assessment of the contribution mindfulness-based practice can make to reducing work place stress and staff absences. WALES Temporary Employment Procurement

Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Media and Sport how many temporary staff have been how many procurement officers are currently employed recruited in her Department in each month from July to by his Department. [135733] December 2012. [135239] Stephen Crabb: None. Hugh Robertson: All temporary recruitment during this period was in order to provide specialist skills Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales needed by the Department for specific projects. The how many procurement officers in his Department following table shows the total number of temporary have relevant procurement qualifications. [135735] staff recruited in each month between July and December 2012. Stephen Crabb: The Wales Office does not employ any procurement officers. Number of temporary staff recruited Redundancy

July 2 August 3 Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales September 7 how many posts have been declared redundant by each of his Department’s Executive agencies and non- 285W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 286W departmental public bodies in each year since 1999; Tourism and what the cost of those redundancies has been. [135504] 15. Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with industry Stephen Crabb: The Wales Office, since its establishment representatives on tourism in Scotland. [135636] in 1999, has not been responsible for any Executive agencies or non-departmental public bodies. David Mundell: Scotland Office Ministers meet representatives from the tourism sector in Scotland on a Sovereignty regular basis. The UK Government is committed to the promotion of Scotland overseas. Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received from political Redundancy parties calling for a referendum on Welsh independence. [135192] Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many posts have been declared redundant by each Mr David Jones: None. of his Department’s Executive agencies and non- departmental public bodies in each year since 1999; and what the cost of those redundancies has been. [135492]

DEFENCE David Mundell: The only non-departmental public body that the Scotland Office is responsible for is the Armed Forces: Housing Benefit Boundary Commission for Scotland. The Scotland Office is not responsible for any Executive agencies. The Boundary Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Commission for Scotland does not employ staff directly. Defence what discussions he has had with the Secretary All staff that join the Boundary Commission do so on of State for Work and Pensions on the effect of the assignment, secondment or loan agreement from the under-occupancy penalty on servicemen and their Scottish Government and therefore the issue of redundancy families. [136043] is a matter for the Scottish Government.

Mr Francois: I have had no discussions with the Temporary Employment Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Duncan Smith), on the effect of the under-occupancy what amount his Department spent on interim staff as penalty on service personnel and their families. defined by the National Audit Office in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [135181]

SCOTLAND David Mundell: The Scotland Office spend on interim staff was (a) £35,482 in 2010-11 and (b) £21,446 in Income Tax Personal Allowance 2011-12. The agency staff were engaged to fill vacancies in the Office and were not additional to the staff numbers 8. Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for reported in the annual reports and accounts of the Scotland what estimate he has made of the number of Office. people in Scotland who will be affected by the planned change to the income tax personal allowance. [135629]

Michael Moore: From 1 April 2013, the personal NORTHERN IRELAND allowance will rise by an additional £235 to £9,440. This Employment Agencies further increase to the personal allowance will benefit 2.2 million people in Scotland, lifting an additional 21,000 people out of income tax entirely. This means a Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern total of 183,000 people in Scotland will be taken out the Ireland what the total spending on recruitment agencies income tax system. by her Department was in each month from July to December 2012. [135243] Scottish Independence: Border Control Mike Penning: During this period, my Department spent the following amounts on recruitment agencies: 10. Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what assessment his Department has made 2012 £ of the potential effect of Scottish independence on border control at the border between Scotland and July 4,229 Northumberland. [135631] August 3,005 September 6,072 Michael Moore: The UK Government is not making October 6,495 plans for independence as we are confident that when November 15,042 the referendum is held, Scotland will choose to remain Note: part of a strong, successful United Kingdom. Figures for December are not yet available. 287W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 288W

My Department also has a 12-month contract with Mike Penning: It has been long standing policy for nijobs, a Northern Ireland based recruitment agency my Department to refer hon. Members to non- which is used when we need to advertise for specialist departmental public bodies when seeking information posts in Northern Ireland. This contract costs £1,500 on operational matters. This reflects the fact that such per annum. bodies are both independent and best placed to answer such questions. It also makes sense that, when hon. Procurement Members seek information relating to a particular non- departmental public body, whose independence from Government is important, that hon. Members engage Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern with that body direct, rather than to seek to do so Ireland how many procurement officers are currently through Ministers. The Northern Ireland Office has employed by her Department. [135730] responsibility for two Executive non-departmental public bodies and one Advisory non-departmental public body, Mike Penning: My Department does not currently contact details for which are provided in the following employ a procurement officer. table: As required, the Department sources advice and guidance on procurement-related issues from the Government ALB Status Contact details Procurement Service in Whitehall and/or the Central Parades Commission Executive [email protected] Procurement Directorate of the Department of Finance NI NDPB and Personnel in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland Executive [email protected] Human Rights NDPB Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Commission Ireland how many civil servants in her Department Boundary Advisory [email protected] regularly deal with procurement services. [135731] Commission for NDPB Northern Ireland Mike Penning: Advice on procurement-related matters is provided to staff in my Department by our Estates Redundancy Pay and Office Services Team and is based on guidance from the Government Procurement Service in Whitehall Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern and/or the Central Procurement Directorate of the Ireland what the total amount of redundancy pay paid Department of Finance and Personnel in Northern to civil servants in her Department was in each month Ireland. No member of staff is employed solely to deal from July to December 2012. [135241] with procurement services. Mike Penning: My Department did not make any Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern redundancy payments between July and December 2012. Ireland how many procurement officers in her Department Temporary Employment have relevant procurement qualifications. [135732]

Mike Penning: My Department does not employ Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern procurement officers. When needed, professional advice Ireland what amount her Department spent on interim (a) on procurement-related matters is sourced from the staff as defined by the National Audit Office in (b) Government Procurement Service in Whitehall and/or 2010-11 and 2011-12; and if she will make a statement. the Central Procurement Directorate of the Department [135180] of Finance and Personnel in Northern Ireland. Mike Penning: My Department did not spend any money on interim staff during 2010-11 or 2011-12. Redundancy Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Northern Ireland how many temporary staff have been Ireland how many Civil Service posts have been made recruited in her Department in each month from July redundant by her Department in each year since 1999; to December 2012. [135242] and what the cost of redundancies has been in each such year. [135493] Mike Penning: During the period in question, my Department recruited one temporary member of staff, Mike Penning: Comparable figures for my Department in September 2012, for a specialist finance role. as it is now configured are not available for the years preceding the completion of devolution of policing and justice functions on 12 April 2010. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Since April 2010, my Department has not made any staff redundant. British Indian Ocean Territory

Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Ireland how many posts have been declared redundant Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the timetable by each of her Department’s executive agencies and is for negotiations on the extension of the use of British non-departmental public bodies in each year since 1999; Indian Ocean Territory by the US for defence and and what the cost of those redundancies has been. other purposes in accordance with the agreement of [135494] 1966. [135903] 289W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 290W

Mark Simmonds: The 1966 Exchange of Notes with (approximately 15% of the workforce) have completed the US provides that the islands of the British Indian the training since January 2011. The principles of equality Ocean Territory (BIOT). including Diego Garcia, shall and diversity are also embedded within the annual be available to them until 2016 and continuing thereafter appraisal processes which apply to all staff. for a further period of 20 years unless terminated by either Government in the period 2014-16. There have Redundancy been no substantive discussions to date with the US on the future of the US presence in BIOT post-2016 nor Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign has a timetable been set for any such discussions. and Commonwealth Affairs how many posts have been Conditions of Employment declared redundant by each of his Department’s executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies in each year since 1999; and what the cost of those Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for redundancies has been. [135506] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion of staff in his Department requested (a) part-time, (b) Alistair Burt: Since 1999, no staff have been made job-share or (c) other flexible working arrangements compulsorily redundant in the following executive agencies in each of the last five years; and how many such and arm’s length bodies (ALBs) of the Foreign and requests were granted. [134991] Commonwealth Office: Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office FCO Services; (FCO) supports flexible working for its employees where Wilton Park; it meets business needs. We have extended the right to Great Britain China Centre. all our employees to have a request for flexible working The British Council has made 56 staff compulsorily considered. Either on an ad hoc basis or for a regular redundant since 1999. The cost of redundancy payments change to their working pattern. The FCO does not made in 2010-11 and 2011-12 was £563,014 and £28,633 retain specific data on the number of requests for respectively. No costs are available prior to this date as flexible working made by staff. However we are currently the information was not recorded centrally. To collate developing means for these to be recorded within our the information now, from individual records, would HR Management System to record a wider range of incur disproportionate cost. flexible working patterns. The Westminster Foundation for Democracy has made The number of staff working part-time or job sharing three staff compulsorily redundant since 1999; two staff in the last five years is as follows: in 2007-08 and the Chief Executive Officer in 2009. The total cost of redundancy payments was £215,761. 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Number of Job 17 13 16 18 19 Sharers (JS) Number of 115 121 126 115 122 HEALTH Part Timers (PT) Arthritis

Total number 132 134 142 133 141 Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State of JS and PT for Health (1) what his policy is on the use of biological Percentage of 2.8 2.8 2.9 2.8 3.1 therapies on adults diagnosed with rheumatoid total staff arthritis and who have a disease activity score of above Note: [135446] These figures include all FCO civil servants based in the UK and 3.2; overseas, but do not include staff from FCO Services, (an Executive (2) what assessment he has made of the effect of the Agency and Trading Fund of the FCO), the UK Border Agency or UK’s eligibility criteria for access to biological locally engaged staff employed overseas. therapies on the clinical outcomes achieved by patients Equality with rheumatoid arthritis. [135540]

Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Norman Lamb: The Department has not issued guidance and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion of staff on the use of biological therapies for people with in his Department have received training in equality rheumatoid arthritis. The National Institute for Health and diversity and the requirements of the Equality Act and Clinical Excellence (NICE) has published a clinical 2010 in each of the last three years. [134808] guideline on the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis and technology appraisal guidance on the use of certain Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office individual biological therapies. NICE recommends the introduced an e-learning diversity training package for use of certain biological therapies for the treatment of all staff (UK based and overseas locally engaged staff) patients with severe disease (disease activity score greater in May 2006. All new entrants must complete the package than 5.1 confirmed on at least two occasions, one and all staff are encouraged to repeat the training month apart) if the patient has not responded to treatment annually. The training was updated in 2011 to reflect with two separate combinations of conventional disease- changes to legislation and the requirements of the Equality modifying drugs. Act. We are only able to provide data on how many staff Where NICE has issued positive appraisal guidance have completed the training since January 2011. These on a medicine, the national health service in England is records show that just under 2,000 members of staff legally obliged to provide funding for such treatments. 291W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 292W

Access to biological therapies in other countries of (2) what the rate was per 100,000 people of permanent the United Kingdom is a matter for the devolved admissions to residential and nursing care homes for Administrations. 18 to 65 year-olds in (a) Wirral South constituency, (b) Wirral and (c) Merseyside in each of the last five years. Blood Diseases [135289]

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he plans to take to improve the recording of Norman Lamb: We are informed by the NHS a (a) diagnosis of sepsis and (b) death from sepsis in Information Centre for health and social care that it NHS trusts; and if he will make a statement. [134836] collects and publishes data on the number of adults—those aged 18 to 64 and 65 and over—who are permanently Dr Poulter: The World Health Organisation’s (WHO) admitted to local authority-supported residential and International Classification of Diseases, which is used nursing care. Information on the numbers of people by the national health service, currently does not distinguish who arrange and fund their own care is not collected. between sepsis and septicaemia (bloodstream infections). However, we understand that the WHO is currently The Information Centre does not collect data at revising its classification and the Department will be constituency level, or for Merseyside, as this does not reviewing definitions of sepsis for recording purposes in exist as a single local authority. the NHS in the light of that. The following tables show data, provided by the Sepsis is the invasion and infection of a person with Information Centre, on the rate per 100,000 population pathogenic micro-organisms that cause a severe response of local authority-supported permanent admissions to in the body. Sepsis can take many forms and at its most residential and nursing care of those aged 18 to 64 years serious, can result in death. and 65 and over for Wirral, Sefton, St. Helens, Liverpool Frontline health care professionals are routinely trained and Knowsley local authorities since 2007-08. These to recognise the early signs of severe sepsis and how to authorities are collectively referenced as serving the treat it. The Department supports existing international Merseyside area. guidance on the management of sepsis and used this to 1 inform the ‘Start Smart Then Focus’ guidance published Rate per 100,000 population admitted to residential care in November 2011. A copy has already been placed in Local authority Year2 Age18to64 Age65andover the Library. In addition, registered health care providers are expected Wirral 2007-08 10 570 to ensure ongoing education of staff on the principles 2008-09 10 460 and practice of the prevention and control of infection, 2009-10 20 570 as advocated in the ‘Code of Practice for the prevention 2010-11 15 500 and control of infection and related guidance’. 2011-12 15 575 Cannabis Liverpool 2007-08 10 520 Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 15 815 Health pursuant to the answer of 13 November 2012, 2009-10 15 665 Official Report, column 193W, on cannabis, what effect 2010-11 10 730 the (a) Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 and (b) Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001 have on the availability of the 2011-12 15 660 Bedrocan and Bediol forms of cannabis by prescription and on the NHS. [135430] Sefton 2007-08 15 510 2008-09 15 605 Norman Lamb: Cannabis and its preparations, including Bedrocan and Bediol, are Class B controlled drugs 2009-10 15 570 under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. Cannabis is also 2010-11 10 495 listed in schedule 1 of the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2011-12 10 610 2001 and Bedrocan and Bediol are also subject to the same restrictions. St Helens 2007-08 5 280 While clinicians can prescribe any product, including 2008-09 10 485 any unlicensed product, United Kingdom pharmacists are only able to possess, supply or dispense schedule 1 2009-10 5 390 drugs under a Home Office licence. 2010-11 5 415 2011-12 10 560 Care Homes: Merseyside Knowsley 2007-08 25 635 Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 15 560 Health (1) what the rate was per 100,000 people of permanent admissions to residential and nursing care 2009-10 10 655 homes for over-65s in (a) Wirral South constituency, 2010-11 10 620 (b) Wirral and (c) Merseyside in each of the last five 2011-12 10 590 years; [135288] 293W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 294W

Rate1 per 100,000 population admitted to nursing care policy development. The Department does not collect Local data on the overall proportion of staff who have attended authority Year2 Age 18 to 64 Age 65 and over training sessions or accessed learning materials. Wirral 2007-08 10 545 Guidance on equality and diversity, including on the 2008-09 5 350 Equality Act 2010 and the PSED, is available to all 2009-10 15 370 staff, alongside the ongoing provision of advice and 2010-11 10 295 support from the Department’s equality and inclusion team. Departmental staff also have access to civil service 2011-12 5 260 learning and other central Government courses on the Equality Act 2010. Liverpool 2007-08 5 180 2008-09 15 290 2009-10 10 235 2010-11 10 245 Health Services: Lancashire 2011-12 5 200

Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Sefton 2007-08 5 295 Health what the financial deficit was of each (a) primary 2008-09 10 410 care trust and (b) NHS hospital trust in Lancashire in 2009-10 5 285 each of the last three years. [135115] 2010-11 10 250 2011-12 10 295 Dr Poulter: All primary care trusts and national health service hospital trusts in Lancashire reported a St Helens 2007-08 5 640 surplus in their annual accounts from 2009-10 to 2011-12. 2008-09 5 335 Financial accounts for Blackpool Teaching Hospitals 2009-10 0 420 NHS Foundation Trust, Lancashire Teaching Hospitals 2010-11 5 325 NHS Foundation Trust, Calderstones Partnership NHS 2011-12 10 495 Foundation Trust and Lancashire Care NHS Foundation Trust are not held centrally. These can be obtained Knowsley 2007-08 5 270 directly from the trusts. 2008-09 10 310 2009-10 20 335 2010-11 10 300 Hospitals: Merseyside 2011-12 10 275 1 The Information Centre has calculated numbers as a rate per 100,000 population against figures supplied by the Office for National Statistics mid-year population estimates. Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for 2 Figures for 2011-12 are provisional; all other years are final. Health how many emergency readmissions within 30 days Note: of discharge from hospital there were in (a) Wirral Figures are rounded to the nearest five. South constituency, (b) Wirral and (c) Merseyside in each of the last five years. [135290] Equality

Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anna Soubry: Information is not available in the what proportion of staff in his Department have precise form requested. Information on the number of received training in equality and diversity and the emergency re-admissions within 28 days of discharge requirements of the Equality Act 2010 in each of the for the five most recent available years is given in the last three years. [134809] following table for Wirral primary care trust (identical to Wirral metropolitan county district) and Merseyside Dr Poulter: The Department has operated a diversity metropolitan county. Information on standardised rates training programme since 2002. This programme has of emergency re-admission (emergency re-admissions been adapted to incorporate new legislation. The overview divided by the total number of hospital discharges, booklet given to all staff as part of induction covers adjusted for variations in case mix) is available from the equality and diversity, with links to further information website of the Health and Social Care Information on the Department’s intranet. The Department’s induction Centre at: e-learning tool covers equality, diversity and human https://indicators.ic.nhs.uk/webview/ rights. Number of emergency re-admissions to hospital within 28 days of For the last three years, all new staff joining the discharge from hospital, persons, financial years 2006-07 to 2010-11 Department have attended an induction training event Area 2010-11 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08 2006-07 which includes a session on equality and diversity and the requirements of the Equality Act 2010. Wirral Primary 5,503 5,734 5,662 5,486 4,969 Care Trust Formal training and other learning opportunities are Merseyside 24,299 24,274 24,304 25,235 22,100 available to all departmental staff on the public sector Metropolitan equality duty (PSED) and about embedding equality in County 295W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 296W

Notes: Olympic Games 2012 1. All ‘re-admissions’ includes all finished and unfinished continuous in-patient (CIP) spells that are emergency admissions within 0-27 days (inclusive) of the last, previous discharge from hospital, including Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health those where the patient dies, but excluding the following: those with a which events at the London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics main specialty upon re-admission coded under obstetric or mental were attended by each Minister in his Department using health specialties; and those where the re-admitting spell has a diagnosis tickets or passes for which they did not pay personally; of cancer (other than benign or in situ) or chemotherapy for cancer coded anywhere in the spell. and what the cost was of attending each such event for 2. No attempt has been made to assess whether the re-admission was members of the public who used comparable seats or linked to the discharge in terms of diagnosis. had comparable access. [135640] 3. Some emergency re-admissions may be potentially avoidable and a result of poor treatment in hospital, or poor or badly organised Dr Poulter: The Government pledged to publish these rehabilitation and support services when a person is transferred home following treatment. This analysis does not attempt to identify whether details following the Olympic and Paralympic Games the emergency re-admissions were avoidable. and will do so shortly. 4. It should be noted that the data presented are a count of re-admissions and not of individual patients, as a patient may be re-admitted more than once in a financial year. Procurement

Medical Equipment Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the monetary value was of contracts awarded by Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department to (a) management consultancies and Health what recent assessment he has made of differences (b) IT companies in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if in the price paid for medical devices by foundation trust he will make a statement. [135171] hospitals and health providers. [134833] Dr Poulter: Part management consultancy spend and Dr Poulter: The Department does not routinely assess information technology (IT) companies spend for 2010-11 the differences in prices paid for medical devices by and 2011-12 for the Department of Health (this includes foundation trust hospitals and health providers. National the Core Department and Connecting for Health) are health service trusts are responsible for running their both in the following tables: own procurements and ensure they are getting value for Management consultancy services money from their procurement. Financial year £ million

NHS Commissioning Board 2008-09 107.00 2009-10 115.00 2010-11 14.77 Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2011-12 15.05 on how many occasions since his appointment the medical director of the NHS Commissioning Board This Government is determined to use management has worked on a Saturday or Sunday. [134818] consultants if and only if they can add real value and where no other alternative exists, which ensures taxpayers’ Anna Soubry: Since taking up his appointment as money is spent wisely. NHS medical director in November 2007, Professor Sir IT companies Bruce Keogh has worked whatever hours have been necessary to discharge the responsibilities of the role. Financial year £ million This has routinely involved working in the evenings, at 2008-09 75.12 weekends and on public holidays. 2009-10 104.67 2010-11 112.47 NHS: Freedom of Expression 2011-12 120.11 Departmental IT companies spend is taken from the Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for Health combined Department’s Business Management System what assessment he has made of the implications for his (BMS) and also Connecting for Health financial reporting policy on freedom of speech for NHS staff and others sources for all years 2008-09 to 2011-12 and is taken to working on NHS premises of the case between Mr mean total ICT spend as compared to services that are Adrian Smith and Trafford Housing Trust. [135045] IT based. The reported amount is therefore defined by how it is categorised in the accounting systems. Dr Poulter: Each national health service organisation is an employer in their own right and is expected to have Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health human resource policies and procedures that comply (1) how many procurement officers are currently with current legislation including the Equality Act 2010, employed by his Department; [135666] the Human Rights Act 1998 and the European convention on human rights that cover the right to freedom of (2) how many civil servants in his Department regularly speech. deal with procurement services; [135667] The NHS Constitution sets out that NHS organisations (3) how many procurement officers in his Department should have a clear policy on equality and diversity and have relevant procurement qualifications. [135668] a written procedure for handling disciplinary issues. Decisions taken by employers regarding an individual’s Dr Poulter: In its response to the National Audit alleged misconduct must always be viewed against the Office study on Government procurement in October specific facts of the case. 2012, the Department reported a total of 39 full-time 297W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 298W equivalent (FTE) posts in its centralised procurement Number of function. Of these, 24 FTEs are procurement professionals redundancies (both —15 holding full graduate membership of the Chartered voluntary and Institute of Purchasing and Supply with the other nine compulsory) Cost (£) holding foundation level in progress towards graduate status. 2004-05 200 23.1 million 2005-06 33 6.5 million The centralised procurement function provides the 2006-07 39 5.7 million professional lead role and supports core spending activities 2007-08 76 7.9 million across the Department, although staff outside of the 2008-09 15 2.6 million function will also engage in procurement services. It is 2009-10 18 2.2 million therefore not possible to identify a definitive number of 1 civil servants engaged in procurement services across 2010-11 261 20.3 million the Department. 2011-12 19 274,000 2012-13 27 1.7 million Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Date new compensation scheme came into effect and changes were Health which contracts his Department has signed made to exit payments. with private companies for the provision of services Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Health previously provided by the public sector under his how many posts have been declared redundant by each departmental responsibility since May 2010; what the of his Department’s executive agencies and non- (a) length of the contract and (b) financial penalties departmental public bodies in each year since 1999; and for opting out early are in each case where possible what the cost of those redundancies has been. [135502] within the cost constraints of this question; and if he will make a statement. [135703] Dr Poulter: The following table shows the total cost Dr Poulter: The Department contracts for a wide of “exit packages” as reported in the individual published variety of services to support its delivery agenda. The annual report and accounts of executive non-departmental Department’s central procurement system does not have public bodies and executive agencies for financial years a separate category for business process outsourcing 2010-11 and 2011-12. (private companies delivering services previously provided Prior to this exit package, information was not published by the public sector), nor any central means of consistently by the individual bodies, or formally collected by the identifying outsourced services. To provide a comprehensive Department in the format requested. To supply it from list would mean going back to each business area and 1999 would incur disproportionate costs. Directorate in the Department and consulting on which Exit packages per accounts consolidation data of the contracts they have commissioned are to be 2010-11 2011-12 considered to be business process outsourcing. This Total Total would incur disproportionate cost. Total cost of Total cost of The Department publishes information on newly awarded number exit number exit of exit packages of exit packages contracts on Contracts Finder, the Government online packages £000 packages £000 facility for the publication of tendering opportunities and contract information. Contracts Finder may be Non-departmental found at: public bodies: http://contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/ Care Quality 140 9,181 50 722 Commission Health Protection 33 749 38 839 Redundancy Agency Appointments 9 430 * 26 Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Commission Health how many Civil Service posts have been made Executive Agencies: redundant by his Department in each year since 1999; Medicines and 14725907 and what the cost of redundancies has been in each Healthcare Products such year. [135501] Regulatory Agency

Dr Poulter: We are not able to report how many civil The data is taken directly from the audited consolidation service posts have been made redundant during the schedules provided by the bodies concerned, from which period specified. The following table shows the number the Departments annual report and accounts are prepared. of the Department’s civil servants who have been made The disclosure in the accounts shows the number and redundant from 1999 to date. value of exit packages taken by staff leaving in the year. Exit packages includes compulsory redundancies and Number of other departures. The latter includes the cost of both redundancies (both early retirements (excluding those relating to ill-health) voluntary and and voluntary redundancies. However, it is not possible compulsory) Cost (£) to separately identify the value of either of these costs 1999-2000 20 2.3 million from the data collected. Therefore an overall figure for 2000-01 18 2 million redundancies is not separately identifiable. 2001-02 22 3.2 million The expense associated with these departures may 2002-03 23 1.4 million have been recognised in part or in full in a previous 2003-04 110 7.6 million period. 299W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 300W

Due to the small numbers of staff involved, and in INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT order to comply with the Data Protection Act, the numbers of staff for the Appointments Commission are Afghanistan represented by “*” as per their published accounts. Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Redundancy Pay International Development (1) what the size of her Department’s team is in (a) Kabul and (b) Helmand; Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and if she will make a statement about planned changes what the total amount of redundancy pay paid to civil to her Department’s presence after 2014; [135722] servants in his Department was in each month from (2) what her policy is on the future of (a) Helmand July to December 2012. [135223] Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) and (b) other PRTs in Afghanistan; and if she will make a statement. Dr Poulter: The Department has paid a total of [135725] £1,460,223 to civil servants as redundancy payments between July and December 2012. We are unable Justine Greening: For security reasons we cannot to break this down into individual months for July to provide exact staffing numbers for Helmand and Kabul. November as this could identify payments made to As agreed by President Karzai and the international individuals. The relevant information the Department community all Provincial Reconstruction Teams (PRTs) is able to provide is presented in the following table: across Afghanistan will close by the end of 2014, including the UK-led Helmand PRT. From 2014 DFID Afghanistan 2012 Cost of voluntary exits (£) is currently planning to maintain a presence in Kabul of July to November 1,016,622 similar size to our current operation. December 443,601 Total costs July to December 1,460,223 Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much her Department has spent in (a) Afghanistan and (b) Helmand Temporary Employment Province in each of the last 10 years. [135726]

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Justine Greening: DFID bilateral spend in Afghanistan what amount his Department spent on interim staff as since 2002-03 is broken down as follows. defined by the National Audit Office in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. £ million [135172] Financial Including Helmand specific year Afghanistan programming

Dr Poulter: The Department does not hold information 2002-03 74.5 — about spending specifically on interims as defined by 2003-04 79.7 — the National Audit Office. Information about the 2004-05 79.6 — Department’s overall spending on ‘temporary/agency’ staff (this includes agency and temporary staff, contractors 2005-06 98.4 — and secondees) is included in the Department’s Resource 2006-07 98.8 11.0 Accounts. From the 2011-12 Resource Accounts—at 2007-08 108.9 8.6 following link—the figures for the ‘Core Department’ 2008-09 147.5 22.3 and ‘Connecting for Health’ for 2010-11 and 2011-12 2009-10 133.4 18.0 respectively can be found in table 17 on page 47: 2010-11 97.2 20.3 https://www.wp.dh.gov.uk/publications/files/2012/10/ 2011-12 146.1 18.3 23735_HC-66-DoH.pdf The DFID bilateral programme to Helmand began in 2006 with the UK assuming the NATO lead in the Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health province. From 2003 to the present DFID’s national how many temporary staff have been recruited in his programme of support to the Afghan Government has Department in each month from July to December also benefited Helmand Province indirectly. 2012. [135224]

Dr Poulter: The numbers of temporary workers—agency workers and contractors—who have joined the Department in each month from July to December 2012 are presented ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS in the following table: Bovine Tuberculosis Number of temporary workers joining Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State July 2012 29 for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to August 2012 25 the answer of 10 December 2012, Official Report, column September 2012 23 152W, on bovine tuberculosis, what judgements his October 2012 31 Department makes on the movement of camelids when November 2012 47 the keeper opts for the skin test rather than the voluntary December 2012 26 blood test for tuberculosis; and if he will make a statement. [136039] 301W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 302W

Mr Heath: Given the very limited sensitivity of the Directive 2011/97/EC as regards specific criteria for the storage tuberculin skin test in camelids, a negative skin test of metallic mercury considered as waste2. result, particularly in animals originating in endemic Directive 2012/12/EC amending Council Directive 2001/112/EC bovine TB areas and/or from herds with a history of relating to fruit juices and certain similar products intended for confirmed TB outbreaks will be treated with particular human consumption2. caution. This is why up until now DEFRA has made Details of forthcoming Government regulations on available on a voluntary basis supplementary blood business are published every six months in Statements testing. These blood tests have now been validated and of New Regulation. The most recent statement was peer reviewed and DEFRA is proposing for the future: published on 17 December and details new regulations (a) to make the use of antibody TB blood testing expected over the period 1 January to 30 June 2013, compulsory to lift movement restrictions from camelid including those to be introduced as a result of EU herds affected by confirmed TB outbreaks; and (b) to legislation. This Fifth Statement can be found on GOV.UK continue to recommend to the alpaca and llama societies at: the adoption of private skin and blood (antibody) tests https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bis-fifth- as the industry standard for camelids being moved statement-of-new-regulation-regulations-covering-january-to- between premises in Great Britain. june-2013 1 There are no associated impact assessments for this legislation EU Law because the legislation was not expected to have an impact on business or civil society. 2 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Impact assessments will be published as they are developed. Food and Rural Affairs which EU directives his Department transposed in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which EU directives his Department expects to transpose in (i) Immigration 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and what estimate he has made of the cost of each such directive to the (A) Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, public purse and (B) private sector. [133701] Food and Rural Affairs if he will estimate the additional cost of the delivery of those public services for which Richard Benyon: The following directives were transposed his Department is responsible arising from inward migration by DEFRA in 2011: since 1997. [134295] Directive 2009/106/EC amending Council Directive 2001/112/EC relating to fruit juices and certain similar products intended for Richard Benyon: Core DEFRA does not produce human consumption. estimates of this nature. To do so would incur a Directive 2009/125/EC establishing a framework for the setting disproportionate cost. of ecodesign requirements for energy-related products1. Directive 2010/30/EC on the indication by labelling and standard product information of the consumption of energy and other resources by energy-related products. Inland Waterways: Conservation Directive 2010/46/EC on the characteristics to be covered as a minimum by the examination and the minimum conditions for Mr Marcus Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for examining certain varieties of agricultural plant species and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will bring vegetable species1. forward measures to prevent further aquatic invasive The following directives were transposed by DEFRA non-native species entering the UK from mainland in 2012: Europe. [134187] Directive 2009/126/EC establishing a framework for the setting 1 of ecodesign requirements for energy-related products . Richard Benyon: We currently seek to address the Directive 2009/128/EC establishing a framework for Community risks of invasive non-native species through the action to achieve the sustainable use of pesticides. implementation of the non-native species framework Directive 2010/60/EC providing for certain derogations for strategy for GB. Actions have included, for example; marketing of fodder plant seed mixtures intended for use in the 1 domestic sales restrictions on our most invasive aquatic preservation of the natural environment . plant species; the development of a monitoring regime Directive 2010/79/EC on the adaptation to technical progress for non-native species; research into the impacts, methods of Annex III to Directive 2004/42/EC of the European Parliament of spread and control of invasive non-native species; and of the Council on the limitation of emissions of volatile organic compounds. and communications campaigns to encourage better biosecurity in the aquatic environment. Directive 2012/05/EC amending Council Directive 2000/75/EC as regards vaccination against bluetongue1. Additionally, my officials will continue to work with DEFRA does not capture estimated costs to the the European Commission and other member states to public purse of new regulations but does capture estimated ensure that an EU-wide strategy, whether through the costs to business. These are set out in individual impact legislative proposals that are now anticipated in spring assessments which can be found on the Better Regulation 2013 or otherwise, will deliver sufficiently robust mechanisms Executive’s impact assessment library: to tackle the spread of invasive non-native species within and between member states, including to the UK. An http://www.ialibrary.bis.gov.uk/links/ EU-wide approach is needed and officials have already We expect the following directives to be transposed played a prominent role in the Commission’s working by DEFRA in 2013: groups set up to inform the expected legislative proposals Directive 2010/75/EC on industrial emissions (integrated pollution and will continue to do so to ensure that any proposals prevention and control). are proportionate and fit for purpose. 303W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 304W

Livestock: Transport will outline actions to be undertaken by a variety of organisations to increase the amount of items that are Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State re-used and reduce the quantity of waste produced. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to During its development, we will consider which product his contributions of 13 December 2012, Official categories and waste streams represent key areas for Report, column 529, on live animal exports, on how action to reduce waste generation. many occasions the authorisation to operate within the UK has been withdrawn from a live animal transporter Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State in each of the last five years. [135851] for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will estimate the cost savings to local authorities of families Mr Heath: The Animal Health and Veterinary choosing to use reusable nappies in the latest year for Laboratories Agency (AHVLA) holds data for the period which figures are available. [135012] from 2010 to 2012 only. The AHVLA can only suspend or revoke the authorisations of transporters authorised by the competent authority in Great Britain. In 2010 Richard Benyon: The Department does not collate such regulatory action was taken against two GB this information centrally and there are no current transporters. In 2011 such action was taken against one plans to do so, therefore no estimate can be made. GB transporter and in 2012 such action was also taken against one GB transporter. Nappies: Waste Disposal Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to Food and Rural Affairs how long disposable nappies his contributions of 13 December 2012, Official take to decompose when sent to landfill; and if he will Report, column 530, on live animal exports, what has make a statement. [134854] occurred as a result of each of the 30 statutory notices served on companies not in compliance with the regulations on transporting live animals for export. Richard Benyon [holding answer 7 January 2013]: As [135856] the rate of decomposition depends on a range of environmental factors in whatever landfill site the waste Mr Heath: Under Article 26(2) of Council Regulation is deposited, there is no definitive answer to this question. 1/2005, it is normally the responsibility of the competent The Environment Agency carried out Life Cycle Analysis authority responsible for the authorisation of the comparing the impacts of disposable and reusable nappies transporter to take the necessary regulatory action against in 2005, and this was updated in 2008. The reports are a transporter where there has been a notified infringement available on the Nappy Information Service website. of the legislation. In terms of those infringements relating to the suitability John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, of vehicles, each of the statutory notices served required Food and Rural Affairs what steps his Department is remedial action to be taken either after completion of taking to reduce the number of disposable nappies in the journey, if there was no immediate risk to the the waste stream. [135043] welfare of the animals, or where there was such a risk to the animals, before the journey was permitted to continue, Richard Benyon: While DEFRA does not take a as was the case on four occasions. On 10 occasions the specific policy position on nappy waste, landfill should notices prohibited the further use of vehicles within be the last resort for biodegradable waste. Landfill tax Great Britain until such time as the necessary remedial remains a key driver for diverting waste from landfill. action had been taken. The Department is committed to developing a Waste Nappies Prevention programme for England, to be published by December 2013. The programme will set out a strategic Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State direction and level of ambition for waste prevention. It for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what will outline actions to be undertaken by a variety of information his Department holds on the number of organisations to increase the amount of items that are real nappy schemes run by local authorities; and what re-used and reduce the quantity of waste produced. In plans his Department has to encourage such schemes. developing it, we will consider which product categories [134995] and waste streams represent key areas for action to help reduce waste generated. Richard Benyon: The Department does not collate We plan to launch a “Call for Evidence” to collate this information centrally. However, the Waste and views and data from a variety of stakeholders to support Resources Action programme collects data on waste the programme’s production. prevention activities as part of its annual survey of local authority schemes. Data from 2011-12 showed that 160 collection and unitary authorities promoted Smoke and Chimney Gases real nappies. This represented almost 50% of the local authorities surveyed. There were an additional 37 authorities Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of within a disposal authority that promoted real nappies. State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what DEFRA has committed to developing a Waste steps he takes to monitor smoke or grit emissions from Prevention programme for England, to be published by a wood or coal burning appliance so that no such December 2013. The programme will set out a strategic appliance exceeds the limits set out in BS PD 6434; and direction and level of ambition for waste prevention. It if he will make a statement. [136037] 305W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 306W

Richard Benyon: Local authorities are responsible for of waste produced (according to 70% of respondents) the designation and supervision of smoke control areas. as well as preventing waste through designing waste out Only coal and wood-burning appliances exempted under (33% respondents). Section 21 of the Clean Air Act 1993 can be used in a smoke control area. Local authorities provide the regulatory function, which includes monitoring of smoke emissions and ensuring that coal and wood-burning appliances ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE installed in smoke control areas are exempted appliances. Wind Power: Seas and Oceans DEFRA currently manages the exemption process for appliances and fuels. The. requirements for exemption, Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy “including reference to the BS PD 6434 test procedure, and Climate Change what guidance his Department are provided on DEFRA’s smoke control website at: provides on the distances off shore wind farms should http://smokecontrol.defra.gov.uk/ be built away from sensitive coastlines; and if he will make a statement. [135724] Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he Mr Hayes: Any proposal to build an offshore wind will establish a central register of appliance emissions farm is subject to project level assessment, including that have been checked for validity prior to installation; environmental impact assessment, where locationally and if he will make a statement. [136038] specific impacts will be considered. The Overarching National Policy Statement for Energy (EN-1) and the Richard Benyon: DEFRA has a central register of National Policy Statement for Renewable Energy appliances that have been assessed for their particulate Infrastructure (EN-3), set the policy context for the emissions and approved for use in smoke control areas. development of nationally significant energy infrastructure, This list and the criteria used to assess emissions are including offshore wind farms. provided on DEFRA’s smoke control website at: http://smokecontrol.defra.gov.uk/ The assessment criteria include the emission limit TREASURY recommendations defined in BS PD 6434 for solid fuel domestic appliances up to 44 kW output. Air Passenger Duty

VION Food Group Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make an assessment of the effect of air Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for passenger duty on the competitiveness of regional airports Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what discussions with London airports. [135117] his Department has had with VION NV on the retention of its UK operations in respect of (a) red meat, (b) Sajid Javid: The 2011 consultation into air passenger poultry and (c) pork processing; [134862] duty (APD) gathered comments and evidence on the impact of APD on the UK’s regional economies. The (2) what assessment he has made of the potential Government’s response to the consultation, published effect of the sale of VION NV’s food operations in the on 6 December 2011, can be found online here: UK, announced on 19 November 2012, on UK farming. http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/2011budget_airpassenger.htm [134863] Business Mr Heath: The sale of VION’s UK operations is a commercial decision, and I understand that an agreement Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Chancellor of the has already been reached for the management buyout of Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the its UK pork business which will secure around 4,000 efficiency of the Inward Processing Relief process and jobs. Discussions are ongoing with a number of prospective its ease of use for small businesses. [135104] purchasers for its other UK business units for poultry and red meat. DEFRA officials are continuing to follow Mr Gauke: Inward Processing (IP) allows third country developments and to liaise with farming industry bodies. goods to be imported duty and tax free by traders established in the EU for processing on condition that Waste Management they will be re-exported and not released to free circulation (release to free circulation would disadvantage other Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for EU traders who do not take the benefit of using cheaper Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to third country goods in their processing operations). All the answer of 30 march 2011, Official Report, column IP authorisations for SMEs are dealt with by a central 344W, on waste management, on what evidence he office within EU time scales. based his statement that Site Waste Management Plans IP is regularly audited by both National and EU Regulations (2008) had helped to encourage waste Auditors. prevention and recycling in the construction industry. [133182] Business: Taxation

Richard Benyon: The answer was based on a 2009 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Waste and Resources Action Programme Site Waste Exchequer what steps his Department is taking to Management Plans Impact survey. This reported that provide small businesses with advice and help and to site waste management plans had led to better recycling promote their understanding of the tax system. [135796] 307W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 308W

Mr Gauke: The Government is committed to improving Energy sector1 corporation tax liabilities, United Kingdom, financial small businesses’ experience of the tax system, including years improving education and support, as set out in ‘Making Corporation tax liability3 2 tax easier, quicker and simpler for small business’, published Financial year (£ million) at Budget 2012 and which can be found online at: 2010-11 9,069 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2012/sme-4756.pdf 1 Summary Trade Classification categories: Coal Extracting and Manufacture of Solid Fuels, Extraction of Mineral Oil and Natural As part of this commitment, as announced at autumn Gas, Mineral Oil Processing, Nuclear Fuel Production and Production statement 2012, HMRC will significantly expand its and Distribution of Gas, Electricity, and other forms of energy. online services over the next three years to make the tax 2 Comprises accounting periods ending within each financial year. system more efficient, transparent and less burdensome 3 Liability figures, especially for 2010-11, are subject to revision—for example as additional returns are received. Further information is for both small businesses and individual taxpayers. available in the National Statistics publication on Corporation Tax available at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/ct-receipts/corporation-tax- Child Benefit statistics.pdf Crown Lands and Estates Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many taxpayers have contacted HM Revenue and Pete Wishart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Customs on the forthcoming change to child benefit how many estates have been claimed by the Queen’s and policy to (a) end their entitlement, (b) adjust their tax Lord Treasurer’s Remembrancer in each of the last five code, (c) request further information and (d) make a years; and what the value was of each such property. complaint; and if he will make a statement. [133476] [135445]

Mr Gauke: The information requested is as follows: Sajid Javid: Since devolution the Office of Queen’s and Lord Treasurer’s Remembrancer (QLTR) has been (a) An individual’s entitlement to child benefit is not under the direction of Scottish Ministers rather than affected by the introduction of the high income child the Treasury Commissioners. benefit charge. Underlying entitlement to child benefit will remain if an individual decides to opt out of More information can be found at: receiving payment of child benefit. As of 7 January http://www.qltr.gov.uk/ 2013, approximately 270,000 child benefit claimants had requested that payment be stopped. Deloitte (b) As of 7 January 2013, approximately 3,100 taxpayers had asked for the high income child benefit charge to be John Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of the included in their PAYE code in 2013-14. The deadline Exchequer how many meetings Ministers and officials for doing so is October 2013. in his Department had with Deloitte in each month of (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012. [135976] (c) As of 7 January 2013, the high income child benefit charge pages of the HMRC website had received Sajid Javid: Treasury Ministers and officials engage approximately 1.7 million hits and HMRC had received with a wide variety of organisations in the public and approximately 61,000 calls about the high income child private sectors, as part of the process of policy development benefit charge. and delivery. (d) As of 7 January 2013, six complaints had been The Treasury publishes a list of ministerial meetings received about the high income child benefit charge. with external organizations. This is available online at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm

Corporation Tax: Energy Employment Agencies

Mr Raab: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Jon Trickett: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much UK corporation tax was paid by energy what the total spending on recruitment agencies by his companies operating in the UK in each of the last five Department was in each month from July to December years. [136040] 2012. [135201]

Sajid Javid: In May 2010, the Government introduced Sajid Javid: The following table shows the total an external recruitment freeze across central Government corporation tax liability for companies in the energy Departments. Business critical roles are only advertised sector in each financial year from 2006-07 to 2010-11. when the relevant expertise is not already available More recent data is not available. internally or within the civil service. In addition, over Energy sector1 corporation tax liabilities, United Kingdom, financial the last three years, in order to be more focused and to years save costs, one single campaign has been run to recruit Corporation tax liability3 2 graduate policy advisors to fill vacancies at the Range Financial year (£ million) D grade. Ministerial approval is required for all recruitment, 2006-07 5,608 whether permanent or temporary. 2007-08 6,800 Since 31 March 2010 headcount at HM Treasury has 2008-09 11,534 reduced by 13% and total recruitment costs have fallen 2009-10 7,038 by 30% since 2009-10. 309W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 310W

HM Treasury spending on recruitment agencies is As with all features of the tax system, the Government shown in the following table. The figures are taken from will keep under review whether any action is necessary HM Treasury’s accounting system and exclude recoverable in the future. VAT. Infrastructure Period £ John Healey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer July 2012 105,268 what infrastructure projects have (a) been awarded August 2012 101,645 confirmed support and (b) contractually signed borrowing September 2012 46,150 guarantees under the Government’s borrowing guarantee October 2012 89,220 scheme to date. [136005] November 2012 97,625 December 2012 1n/a Danny Alexander: In the autumn statement of 1 December spend data is not currently available. 5 December 2012, Official Report, columns 871-882, the The spending relates to the recruitment of both Chancellor of the Exchequer announced projects worth temporary and permanent staff and includes the cost of £10 billion had pre-qualified under the UK Guarantee advertising, candidate sourcing and assessment. The Scheme. figures also include the cost of temporary and interim Infrastructure projects guaranteed under the UK staff paid through recruitment agencies. guarantees scheme are commercially confidential and The Treasury’s accounting system does not separately exempt from disclosure. Releasing information is likely identify recruitment agencies. Consequently the above to have a detrimental impact on the formulation and figures could exclude some firms that could be considered development of Government policy and undermine the recruitment agencies whose spending is not posted to Government’s negotiating position during negotiations recruitment codes. If any such spending has taken place resulting in less effective use of public funds. it will not be significant but could not be identified We cannot answer this question further without within the disproportionate costs threshold. prejudicing the process of ongoing policy formulation.

Equality Maternity Pay

Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Steve McCabe: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proportion of staff in his Department have what recent estimate his Department has made of the received training in equality and diversity and the likely effect on families or single parents of the decision requirements of the Equality Act 2010 in the last three to apply increases in maternity pay of one per cent over years. [135354] the next three financial years. [133905]

Sajid Javid: Details on the proportion of staff in the Steve Webb: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Treasury who have received training in equality and the Department for Work and Pensions. diversity and the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 Assessments of impacts will accompany the uprating are not held centrally and could be provided only at order for 2013 and the forthcoming Uprating Bill. disproportionate cost. Minimum Wage Training in equality and diversity and the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 is made available to all Treasury staff via (i) the induction course for all new staff, (ii) the Ian Murray: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer diversity training resources available on Civil Service how many full-time equivalent staff worked in the HM Learning (a central database of training resources available Revenue and Customs minimum wage enforcement to all civil servants), (iii) diversity and equality guidance team in each year since 2008. [135964] on the Treasury’s intranet site and (iv) workshops and other events focusing on diversity and equality issues, Mr Gauke: The current number of FTE staff in most recently workshops on bullying and harassment HMRC’s minimum wage enforcement team (January were made available to all staff. 2013) is 144.15. The annual breakdown requested from 2008 is as follows:

Individual Savings Accounts: Children As at April each year Number FTE staff

Nigel Adams: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2008 133.12 what steps he is taking to ensure that children are not 2009 138.18 adversely affected by the transfer of child trust funds to 2010 142,74 junior ISAs. [134834] 201.1 138.37 2012 134.67 Sajid Javid: The Government has no plans at present to allow child trust funds (CTFs) to be transferred to National Insurance Contributions: New Businesses junior ISAs. The latest published data show there is a sizeable and competitive market for CTFs, and steady Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the growth in the value of accounts. As at April 2011, Exchequer what consideration he has given to around 5.5 million children had a CTF, and these extending the national insurance contributions holiday accounts were worth around £4.3 billion, with around to micro businesses; and if he will make a statement. 70 CTF providers in the market. [135844] 311W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 312W

Mr Gauke: The Government has considered the case were included in RTI submissions where the employer for extending the NICs holiday to all existing micro was not paying its employees under a BACS service user businesses but believe the best use of public funds at number; and if he will make a statement. [135891] this time is to keep the NICs holiday as a targeted scheme for those areas in most need of employment support. Mr Gauke: HMRC are unable to provide the information requested, at this time, as analysis of hash matching is Northern Rock ongoing as part of the RTI pilot.

Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Poverty: Children pursuant to the answer of 20 December 2012, Official Report, column 921W, on Northern Rock, whether any communication was given by his Department to UK Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Asset Resolution or UK Financial Investments Ltd what the potential effect on child poverty measured as prior to 5 December 2012 on the timing of the the number of children living in households falling announcement on Northern Rock remediation payments; below 60 per cent of median income before housing costs was of his announcement in the 2010 Budget that and if he will make a statement. [135996] the Government would (a) increase the standard rate Sajid Javid: As specified in the answer to the of value added tax, (b) increase the income tax personal parliamentary questions on 17 December 2012, Official allowance, (c) index all benefits, tax credits and public Report, column 562W and 20 December 2012, Official sector pensions to consumer prices index, (d) freeze Report, column 921W,the decision to remediate charges council tax rates for one year, (e) introduce the personal for Northern Rock Asset Management customers with independence payment to replace disability living allowance, Consumer Credit Act (CCA) regulated loans where the (f) extend conditionality to lone parents who have a loan documentation is not compliant with CCA youngest child aged 5, (g) change the basis for setting requirements was taken by the UKAR Board on local housing allowance (LHA) rates from the median 5 December. Ministers were made aware of the proposal to the 30th percentile of local market rents from October on the same day. The UKAR proposal was agreed by 2011, (h) cap LHA rates at £250 per week for a one UKFI in a letter to UKAR on 10 December. UKFI bedroom property, £290 per week for a two bedroom sought and was granted Treasury approval on 10 December. property, £340 per week for a three bedroom property and £400 per week for all properties with four bedrooms or more from April 2011, (i) uprate LHA rates by the PAYE consumer price index from April 2013, (j) restrict housing benefit for working age social tenants who occupy a Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer larger property than their family size warrants, (k) pursuant to the answers of 17 December 2012, Official freeze both rates of child benefit for three years from Report, column 563W, on PAYE, for what reason the 2011-12, (l) reduce the tax credits second income threshold numbers provided of hashes matched in each month of to £40,000 in 2011-12, (m) increase the first and second the Real Time Information pilot scheme add up to withdrawal rates to 41 per cent in 2011-12, (n) taper the approximately one million more than the number of family element of the child tax credit immediately after hashes matched by 29 November 2012; and if he will the child element in 2012-13, (o) remove the baby make a statement. [135889] element in the child tax credit from 2011-12, (p) reverse the £4 supplement in the child tax credit for children Mr Gauke: HMRC receive a feed of hash cross aged one and two from 2012-13, (q) reduce the income references from the BACS system when the payments to disregard in tax credits from £25,000 to £10,000 for two the individuals’ bank accounts have been finalised. Typically years from 2011-12 then to £5,000 in 2013-14, (r) this can be up to six days after the related real time introduce an income disregard in tax credits of £2,500 information (RTI) submission has been received by for falls in income from 2012-13, (s) increase the child HMRC. element of the child tax credit by £150 in 2011-12 and The figure of 6,441,719 hash matches, provided on £60 in 2012-13 above indexation, (t) abolish the health 3 December, was the number of individual RTI records in pregnancy grant and (u) reduce the Sure Start maternity that had been matched to a hash cross reference from grant. [135069] the BACS system by 8.45 am on 29 November 2012. The monthly figures provided on 17 December 2012 Sajid Javid: The analysis undertaken at Budget 2010 reflected all individual RTI records, for payments made was published in the Budget 2010 document and Annex A, to employees in each calendar month, that had been available at hash matched by 13 December. Many of the hash cross http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/junebudget_documents.htm references for November salary and wage payments In general, HM Treasury’s distributional analysis were received from the BACS system after 8.45 am on does not examine the impacts of individual policies in 29 November. isolation, as it is important to take account of the impact of the tax, benefit and tax credits system as a Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whole. pursuant to the answer of 17 December 2012, Official Report, column 563W, on PAYE, what estimate he has The Government believes looking at income in isolation made of the number of records submitted to the PAYE is not a helpful measure to track progress towards its Real Time Information (RTI) pilot scheme in November target of eradicating child poverty. 2012 which contained a hash that was not matched The Government is currently consulting on better which were not matched because hash cross references measures of child poverty to inform its approach to 313W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 314W eradicate child poverty—tackling its root causes, providing Sajid Javid: HM Treasury spend is not captured or high-quality education, and helping people into work categorised by company ‘type’. The analysis required to through universal credit. respond on the basis of contracts awarded to ‘management consultancies’ or ‘IT companies’ could be obtained only Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer at a disproportionate cost to the Department. what the potential effect on child poverty measured as the number of children living in households falling HM Treasury spend (excluding VAT) for consultancy below 60 per cent of median income before housing services (which includes spend with management costs was of his announcement in the 2011 Budget that consultancies) for FYs 2010-11 and 2011-12 is £28.5 million the Government would (a) increase the income tax and £15.2 million respectively. personal allowance, (b) change the basis for indexing This information is published in the ‘HM Treasury direct taxes to consumer prices index and (c) remove Annual Report 2012’ (page 140); and is available on the the fuel duty escalator. [135070] Department’s website: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk Sajid Javid: The analysis undertaken at Budget 2011 HM Treasury complies with the Cabinet Office was published in the Budget 2011 document and Annex A, Transparency agenda requirement for central Government available at: Departments to publish contract awards in excess of http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/2011budget_documents.htm £10,000 (excl VAT) on ‘Contracts Finder’: HM Treasury’s distributional analysis does not examine www.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/ the impacts of individual policies in isolation, as it is important to take account of the impact of the tax, Jon Trickett: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer benefit and tax credits system as a whole. (1) how many procurement officers are currently employed The Government believes looking at income in isolation by his Department; [135660] is not a helpful measure to track progress towards its (2) how many civil servants in his Department regularly target of eradicating child poverty. deal with procurement services; [135661] The Government is currently consulting on better measures of child poverty to inform its approach to (3) how many procurement officers in his Department eradicate child poverty—tackling its root causes, providing have relevant procurement qualifications. [135662] high-quality education, and helping people into work through universal credit. Sajid Javid: HM Treasury employs six procurement personnel that deliver procurement services to the Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Department; all six hold relevant procurement what the potential effect on child poverty measured as qualifications. the number of children living in households falling In addition, an interim specialist contractor delivers below 60 per cent of median income before housing procurement services and also holds a relevant procurement costs was of his announcement in the 2011 Autumn qualification. Statement that the Government would (a) freeze the There may be additional members of staff in the couple and lone parent elements of the Working Tax Department that hold procurement qualifications in Credit in 2012-13 and reverse the planned £110 non-designated procurement posts. However the exact increase in the child element of child tax credit and (b) number is unknown as this information is not held increase public sector pay by one per cent in each of the centrally. two years following the end of the pay freeze. [135071] Sajid Javid: The analysis undertaken at autumn statement Tax Avoidance: Construction 2011 was published in the autumn statement 2011 document and supplementary document Distributional Analysis, Katy Clark: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer available at: what assessment he has made of the recently released http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/as2011_documents.htm report, The Great Payroll Scandal by the UCATT HM Treasury’s distributional analysis does not examine trades union; and if he will make a statement. [135710] the impacts of individual policies in isolation, as it is important to take account of the impact of the tax, Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given benefit and tax credits system as a whole. to the House on 12 December 2012, Official Report, column 324W. The Government believes looking at income in isolation is not a helpful measure to track progress towards its Taxation: Children target of eradicating child poverty. The Government is currently consulting on better Mr MacNeil: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer measures of child poverty to inform its approach to for what reasons spouses are classified as a non-taxable eradicate child poverty—tackling its root causes, providing benefit for travel purposes but children are not classed high-quality education, and helping people into work as such. [135450] through universal credit. Procurement Mr Gauke: In general there are very few circumstances in which the provision of travel to the spouse of an Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer employee by their employer would be non-taxable. These what the monetary value was of contracts awarded by include circumstances in which the presence of the his Department to (a) management consultancies and spouse is required for the employee to perform their (b) IT companies in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if duties, for example where the employee requires the he will make a statement. [135184] spouse to act as an interpreter. To obtain tax relief the 315W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 316W employee must show that the expense of taking his or (2) how many VAT registrations have been ended in her spouse was necessarily incurred in the performance (a) 2012 and (b) each of the last five calendar years. of the employee’s duties. [134922] Payments made to an MP by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority for travel and Mr Gauke: The numbers of new VAT registrations subsistence expenses in respect of journeys between the and de-registrations are available in sheet 5 of the Member’s London area residence and their constituency HMRC VAT Bulletin which is at: residence by the Member’s spouse or partner, with https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/ whom they share caring responsibilities for a dependent, Tax%20and%20Duty%20Bulletins/VAT_1112.xls are exempt from income tax. This exemption was introduced in 2010 to formalise a long standing concession relating Mr Djanogly: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the tax treatment of travel expenses of Members of what the average time from request to issuing of a new Parliament. Legislation will be introduced in Finance VAT registration number is; and what the average time Bill 2013 to formalise aspects of a similar concession as for issuing such numbers was, at the calendar year end, it currently applies to expenses paid to Members of the in each of the last five years. [134923] devolved Administrations. Mr Gauke: The following table shows the average Temporary Employment length of time taken time to process applications to register for VAT: Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what amount his Department spent on interim staff as Calendar year Days defined by the National Audit Office in (a) 2010-11 20121 11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. 2011 13 [135185] 2010 19 20092 22 Sajid Javid: The Treasury spent £600,000 in 2010-11 1 January to October only and £632,000 in 2011-12 on interim staff to fill vacant 2 April to December only posts in the Department that would otherwise have been occupied by salaried permanent members of staff. Mr Djanogly: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The use of interim staff falls within the scope of the how many complaints his Department has received on civil service recruitment freeze, which was announced VAT registration certificates in (a) 2012 and (b) each on 24 May 2010. Where a Treasury team identifies the of the last five years. [134924] need for the employment of an interim worker it must obtain ministerial approval prior to commencement of Mr Gauke: HMRC is responsible for processing the recruitment process. applications to register for VAT and has received the Spending on interim staff has declined significantly following numbers of complaints in relation to VAT since 2010. The equivalent figures for 2008-09 and registration. 2009-10 were £2,567,000 and £2,490,000 respectively. Calendar year Number

Jon Trickett: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 20121 103 how many temporary staff have been recruited in his 2011 280 Department in each month from July to December 2010 370 2012. [135200] 2009 225 2008 244 Sajid Javid: The information requested is as follows: 2007 982 1 January to November only Month Number of staff

July 3 Mr Djanogly: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer August 2 what steps he is taking to speed up the issuing of VAT September 1 registration certificates to businesses. [134925] October 1 November 1 Mr Gauke: HMRC has automated the VAT registration December 1 process from October 2012. Total 9 All businesses are now able to go online to obtain a VAT registration number and notify most variations to The data include staff recruited on fixed term contracts their registration details (such as change of address or of less than 12 months and agency temporary staff. to de-register) online. All businesses applying online will be informed of the VAT status of their application by way of a secure message sent to their online account. Mr Djanogly: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer By cutting out the time for postal delivery, the majority (1) how many new VAT registration numbers were of businesses using the online channel should receive issued in (a) 2012 and (b) each of the last five calendar their VAT registration numbers four to six days quicker years; [134921] than prior to the automation. 317W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 318W

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Tax credits helpline Exchequer how much additional revenue was received Number of call by the Exchequer as a result of the 2.5 per cent increase attempts1 (millions) Callers2 (millions) in rates of VAT between May 2010 and May 2012. 2009-10 31 22 [135794] 1 Calls attempts—The number of attempts (including redials) made to contact the Tax Credit Helpline. 2 Mr Gauke: The standard rate of VAT increased from The number of individual callers telephoning on each individual day aggregated over the period. 17.5% to 20% on 4 January 2011. At Budget 2010 the rate increase was expected to raise approximately £17 billion The increased call attempts in 2010-11 are linked to over the 17 months between January 2011 and May reduced call handling performance, leading to callers 2012. frequently using the redial facility on their telephones, which affected the volume of call attempts. HMRC’s analysis of this data showed that customer Welfare Tax Credits demand levels have remained relatively constant over the last three years and redial ranges returned to normal levels in 2011-12. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what evidence on child care costs tax credit claimants will be required to provide to HM Revenue Working Tax Credit and Customs under the proposal set out in his autumn statement 2012; and what estimate he has made of the Luciana Berger: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer number of people who will be affected by that what the average length of time was between an eligible proposal. [134951] applicant’s working tax credit claim form being received and the applicant receiving the support to which they Sajid Javid: HMRC are yet to decide precisely what were entitled for each of the last three years. [135756] evidence they will require claimants to provide to support their claims for child care costs and will be consulting Sajid Javid: The average time taken to process a new appropriate representative bodies before making a final claim for tax credits for the last three years is as follows: decision. Days HMRC have estimated that the proposal will affect around 80,000 families a year. 2009-10 19.7 2010-11 24.0 Luciana Berger: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2011-12 25.2 what the average cost of calls made to the tax credit helpline was in each of the last three years. [135803] We cannot breakdown processing times specifically for working tax credit in the manner requested. The average processing times therefore cover all tax credit Sajid Javid: HMRC does not hold the information to claims made (working tax credit and child tax credit provide the average costs of calls to the tax credit line inclusive). over the last three years. The key driver for the increase in time taken to The cost of calling HMRC is dependent on several- process a new claim was the increased intensity of factors. Calls are charged to the customer based on the upfront compliance checks to reduce the level of error tariff arrangements they have with their service provider, and fraud in the system. Moving from a strategy of the device they use for the call and the location from ‘check now pay later’ to ‘check now then pay’ came with which they call. heavily increased levels of pre-payment interventions HMRC’s tax credit helpline can now be accessed and checks which added to the processing time. using an 0345 number. This results in cheaper calls for customers calling from mobile phones in comparison to Luciana Berger: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the previous 0845 number. for what reasons working tax credit claim forms are not available for download from the gov.uk website. [135766] Luciana Berger: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many calls were received by the tax credit helpline Sajid Javid: As part of HMRC’s measures to prevent was in each of the last three years. [135804] fraudulent claims for tax credits, claim forms are only available by telephoning the tax credit helpline, where Sajid Javid: HMRC records a range of call handling callers are required to pass basic identity checks. Claim data. The following table shows both the total number forms are also available through a small number of of call attempts received and the number of callers, trusted third party organisations, where similar checks which measures underlying customer demand for the assure forms are only provided to genuine customers. tax credit helpline in the last three years:- Luciana Berger: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Tax credits helpline what the average length of time was between an eligible Number of call attempts1 (millions) Callers2 (millions) applicant requesting a working tax credit claim form via the tax credit helpline and the receipt of their 2011-12 30 20 working tax credit form in each of the last three years. 2010-11 63 26 [135805] 319W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 320W

Sajid Javid: This information is not available in the (b) The proportion of children living in households format requested. HMRC aim to send out a claim pack with no adult in work in the UK: to customers within 48-hours of the request. (i) in single adult households is 59% (ii) with at least one adult in receipt of ESA is 6% (iii) with at least one adult in receipt of JSA is 18% WORK AND PENSIONS Notes: 1. The Family Resources Survey is a nationally representative Access to Work Programme sample of UK households. Data for 2010-11 was collected between April 2010 and March 2011. Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for 2. The figures from the Family Resources Survey are based on a Work and Pensions what funding his Department sample of households which have been adjusted for non-response allocated to publicising the Access to Work programme using multi-purpose grossing factors which align the Family Resources Survey to former Government office region population in 2011-12; and what funding will be allocated to by age and sex. Estimates are subject to sampling error and publicising that programme in (a) 2012-13 and (b) remaining non-response error. 2013-14. [133586] 3. Relative to administrative records, the Family Resources Survey is known to under-report benefit receipt so estimates should be Mr Hoban: I am unable to provide the funding allocation treated with caution. Please see table M6 the within the Family set aside for publicising the Access to Work programme Resources Survey publication Methodology chapter found at across all financial years within this spending review, http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/frs/2010_11/chapter9.pdf because funding allocations are indicative for business for more details. planning purposes, and are subject to change. 4. Percentages have been rounded to the nearest 1%. For 2011-12 we are unable to separately determine 5. Definitions: the publicity spend on the Access to Work programme. Household—A single person or group of people living at the There is a ministerial ban on local publicity, however same address as their only or main residence, who either share for 2012-13 there has been an Exemption Request approved one meal a day together or share the living accommodation (ie a for external publicity with a value of £55,000 and this living room). A household will consist of one or more benefit was for Access to Work publicity (to cover on line units. marketing, events ad production of marketing material). Adult—All those individuals who are aged 16 and over, unless defined as a dependent child (see Child); all adults in the household For future years it would be impossible to give a are interviewed as part of the Family Resources Survey. value as budgets are being reviewed in light of the Child—A dependent child is defined as an individual aged under challenge from the autumn statement. 16. A person will also be defined as a child if they are 16 to 19 years old and they are: Charities Not married nor in a Civil Partnership nor living with a partner; and John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Living with parents; and Work and Pensions on which active projects his Department In full-time non-advanced education or in unwaged government receives advice from UK registered charities. [135800] training. In-work—Includes employees and those that are self-employed—both Mr Hoban: The Department routinely consults other full-time and part-time. Based on self-assessment for the main job organisations during the policy development process, rather than number of hours worked; includes those doing unpaid either formally or informally. This will often involve work in their own business. voluntary sector organisations since they play a key In receipt of employment and support allowance (ESA)/jobseeker’s part in the delivery of services, and an important allowance(JSA)—A household has been defined as in receipt of representational role on behalf of specific groups of ESA/JSA if at least one adult within the household is in receipt of claimants. ESA/JSA. Source: Children: Poverty Family Resources Survey 2010-11

Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what proportion of children living in and Pensions what assessment he has made of the households with no adult in work in (a) each London recent Joseph Rowntree Foundation study on the impact borough and (b) the UK are (i) in single parent of child poverty on gross domestic product. [134123] households, (ii) in a household with at least one parent claiming employment and support allowance and (iii) Esther McVey: The Government welcomes all in a household with at least one adult on jobseeker’s contributions to the child poverty debate and work allowance; and if he will make a statement. [135713] which adds to our understanding of the causes and consequences of child poverty. The Government is Mr Hoban: Information is not available for each determined to eradicate the problem by tackling its root London borough, but is available for London and the causes, including worklessness, educational failure and UK. family breakdown. (a) The proportion of children living in households Universal credit will improve work incentives as well with no adult in work in London: as refocusing entitlements on lower-income in-work (i) in single adult households is 53% households, and removing the complexity that stands in (ii) with at least one adult in receipt of ESA is 5% the way of people taking up their current benefit and (iii) with at least one adult in receipt of JSA is 19% tax credit entitlements. Over 2 million people will be 321W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 322W lifted out of income tax altogether by the announced In 2012 some of the turnover of doctors was raises to the personal allowance. We are giving more compensated for by recruitment of more nurses and nursery and pre-school provision, ensuring that 260,000 physiotherapists. disadvantaged two-year-olds receive 15 hours a week free childcare. We are investing in education, including Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work £2.5 billion for the pupil premium and £1.2 billion for and Pensions how many employment and support capital investment in schools. allowance recipients in each Government region experienced (a) mental and behavioural and (b) physical disorders Comet Group in each of the last four years, by type of disorder. [135920] Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will take steps to ensure that specialists Mr Hoban: Statistics on the number of Employment from Jobcentre Plus work with Comet employees in and Support Allowance recipients in each Government Chesterfield whose jobs are threatened by the company’s region experienced (a) mental and behavioural and (b) closure for the purposes of providing advice on re-training physical disorders in each of the last four years, by type and re-employment. [133170] of disorder and region can be found at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=tabtool Mr Hoban: Jobcentre are working closely with both Guidance for users is available at: Deloitte, the appointed administrator and Comet, to ensure employees facing redundancy receive the best http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/tabtools/guidance.pdf possible support through this difficult time. All locations including Chesterfield have been contacted by Jobcentre Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Plus and received an offer of support and discussions Pensions how many employment and support allowance are now under way with Comet Store Managers to claimants failed a personal capability assessment in agree a suitable approach at local level. In addition we each of the last four years. [135922] have agreed with Deloitte that all employees under threat of redundancy will receive the Rapid Response Mr Hoban: Information on the number of employment Employee fact sheet, along with a jobsearch resource and support allowance claimants that failed a Work pack, which will help them consider how to prepare and Capability Assessment can be found at: look for work. http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/esa_wca/ esa_wca_oct2012_tables.xls Employment Agencies Employment Schemes: Young People

Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the total spending on recruitment and Pensions pursuant to the Answer to the hon. agencies by his Department was in each month from Member for Croydon Central of 10 September 2012, July to December 2012. [135213] Official Report, column 85W, on youth unemployment: London, on what date he expects to publish the first Mr Hoban: Spend on recruitment agencies in the statistical release outlining the number of job outcomes period requested was nil. for participants of the Day 1 Support for Young People Employment and Support Allowance Trailblazer. [133526] Mr Hoban: The decision has not yet been taken on Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work when to publish statistics. The Department works to and Pensions how many doctors were employed on a guidelines set by the UK Statistics Authority to ensure (a) full-time and (b) part-time basis to conduct we publish statistics that meet high quality standards at medical examinations of claimants for employment the earliest opportunity. and support allowance in each of the last four years. [135113] Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer to the hon. Mr Hoban: Atos Healthcare utilises registered and Member for Croydon Central of 10 September 2012, fully trained doctors, nurses and physiotherapists. All Official Report, column 85W, on youth unemployment: are approved by the DWP chief medical adviser to London, how many participants in the Day 1 Support undertake work capability assessments in respect of for Young People Trailblazer there had been in each employment and support allowance (ESA) claims. authority area by 7 December 2012. [133527] The number of permanently employed doctors working on a full-time or part-time basis to conduct ESA work Mr Hoban: The information requested is not currently capability assessments, as recorded by Atos Healthcare, available. The Department works to guidelines set by in each of the last four years is as follows: the UK Statistics Authority to ensure we publish statistics that meet high quality standards at the earliest opportunity. Number employed Number employed full-time part-time EU Law

2012 146 50 2011 161 53 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2010 162 53 and Pensions which EU directives his Department 2009 136 45 transposed in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which EU directives his Department expects to transpose in 323W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 324W

(i) 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and what estimate Future Jobs Fund he has made of the cost of each such directive to the (A) public purse and (B) private sector. [133719] Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the results of the Future Jobs Fund Mr Hoban: A table containing details of the EU were for each constituency in the UK in each year for directives my Department transposed in (a) 2011 and which data is available. [136215] (b) 2012 to date; which EU directives my Department expects to transpose in (i) 2013 and (ii) the next two Mr Hoban: DWP does not hold information on the years; and what estimate we have made of the cost of results of the Future Jobs Fund for each constituency in each such directive to the (A) public purse and (B) the UK. However, it has published official statistics on private sector will be placed in the Library. Future Jobs Fund participant outcomes at a regional level (which may be found here: Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/jsa/ypg/ and Pensions which regulations his Department ypg_fjf_annexe_apr2012.pdf introduced as a result of EU legislation in (a) 2011 and and a national evaluation of the impacts of the Future (b) 2012 to date; which regulations his Department Jobs Fund (which may be found here: expects to implement as a result of EU legislation in (i) http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/adhoc_analysis/2012/ 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and what estimate he impacts_costs_benefits_fjf.pdf has made of the cost of each such regulation to the (A) It is not possible to replicate the results of the Future public purse and (B) private sector. [133720] Jobs Fund impact analysis for each constituency in the UK, largely because of insufficient sample sizes at this Mr Hoban: A table containing details of the regulations geographical level. my Department introduced as a result of EU legislation Hepatic Angiosarcoma in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which regulations my Department expects to implement as a result of EU legislation in (i) 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for what estimate we have made of the cost of each such Work and Pensions if he will classify hepatic angiosarcoma regulation to the (A) public purse and (B) private sector caused by exposure to vinyl chloride on the same basis will be placed in the Library. as mesothelioma caused by exposure to asbestos. [134052]

Food Banks Esther McVey: Diseases that attract payment under the Industrial Injuries Scheme can only be prescribed if Dame Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for they meet the statutory requirements set out in the Work and Pensions what the criteria are for eligibility Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992. to make use of food banks. [135878] Both angiosarcoma of the liver from occupational exposure to vinyl chloride monomer in the manufacture Mr Hoban: The Department does not set the eligibility of polyvinyl chloride and mesothelioma from exposure criteria for the use of food banks; this is a decision for to asbestos are classified as prescribed diseases. Employed individual food banks. earners who contract either of these diseases through their work are able to make a claim for industrial injuries benefits. Dame Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for On the basis of advice from the Industrial Injuries Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of how Advisory Council, and because of the nature and short many families with dependent children are reliant, in term prognosis of mesothelioma, legislation is in place some degree, on food banks. [135879] in respect of this disease so claimants are automatically assessed as being 100% disabled and the usual 90 day Mr Hoban: DWP does not collate or hold numbers waiting rule for industrial injuries disablement benefit is on the usage of food banks. waived. There are no current plans to extend the legislation.

Dame Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for HM Courts and Tribunals Service Work and Pensions what Government support is made available to food banks. [135880] John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on how many occasions the HM Courts and Tribunal Service Social Security and Child Mr Heath: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Support Appeals Centre has failed to meet its targets in Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. respect of response letters in the latest period for which The Government do not provide any support to figures are available. [134570] specific food banks. However, we recognise the good work of organisations that redistribute surplus food to Mr Hoban: The information requested is not held by help reduce food poverty, to assist the homeless and to the Department for Work and Pensions. provide access to nutritional meals to those who may otherwise struggle. In 2012 DEFRA held a roundtable Jobseeker’s Allowance: Peterborough with retailers and food distribution charities to explore the barriers to redistribution, building upon the partnerships Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State most major retailers already have with redistribution for Work and Pensions how many claimants were in charities. receipt of jobseeker’s allowance or equivalent benefit 325W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 326W for more than (a) six, (b) 12 and (c) 18 months in each The Department complies with responsibilities laid quarter in the Peterborough city council area since down under the Data Protection Act 1998 (“Act”) and 2010; and if he will make a statement. [135846] publishes guidance on: www.dwp.gov.uk Mr Hoban: Statistics on how many claimants were in called “DWP-your-personal-information”. receipt of jobseeker’s allowance or equivalent benefit for more than (a) six, (b) 12 and (c) 18 months in each The Department has long standing safeguards within quarter in the Peterborough city council area since 2010 the administration process. Most notably a third party are given in the following table: organisation can only be authorised to open and handle mail when under a contract. The contract sets out Peterborough additional provisions for which the third party organisation Over 13 and Over 39 and Over 65 and is accountable for secure handling of sensitive and up to 26 weeks up to 52 weeks up to 78 weeks confidential information and this is governed by the 2010 Department’s Security. Any person involved in opening January 1,460 540 190 and handling post are bound by Confidentiality Agreements April 1,120 480 220 including the Official Secrets Act, whether employed directly by the Department or employed by a third July 1,075 485 275 party. October 810 310 210 New Enterprise Allowance: Lancashire 2011 January 1,010 285 220 Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for April 1,320 280 140 Work and Pensions how many people in (a) Pendle July 1,410 395 135 constituency and (b) Lancashire are currently in October 1,150 535 145 receipt of the new enterprise allowance. [135103] Mr Hoban: In Pendle there were 40 mentor starts and 2012 20 weekly allowance starts for the period April 2011 up January 1,075 565 210 to and including May 2012. April 1,435 510 310 We do not routinely collect data at county level, the July 1,215 525 370 information requested for Lancashire is not readily October 1,105 595 290 available and could be provided only at disproportionate Note: cost. Data rounded to nearest five. This and other similar information can be found at Personal Independence Payment nomis: https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/default.asp John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will consider providing additional Medical Records: Data Protection financial support to disability charities for the purposes of managing any additional workload as a result of the Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for transfer to personal independence payments. [133285] Work and Pensions how consent is sought for mail containing sensitive and confidential medical data to Esther McVey: We will not provide any additional be opened and handled by a third party when it is sent financial support as we do not believe that disability to (a) his Department and (b) Atos Healthcare; and if charities will have to manage additional work loads. he will make a statement. [133743] We will continue to work with disability charities to support them with their preparations for the introduction Mr Hoban: There are relevant statutory provisions of personal independence payment. We will also continue governing the jurisdiction of my Department in various to support Disabled People’s User Led Organisations Acts. Additionally there are Statutory Instruments which (DPULO) in order for them to become stronger more regulate how the Department operates under the Acts. sustainable organisations through our DPULO programme. My Department does not seek consent for opening mail containing sensitive and medical data in pursuant Redundancy Pay of its administrative responsibilities. Atos Healthcare has responsibility conducting assessments and providing Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work advice to my Department in support of claims or and Pensions what the total amount of redundancy re-assessment for specific benefits. It is standard for pay paid to civil servants in his Department was in each evidence to be submitted in the form of a medical month from July to December 2012. [135211] record and for Atos to review any available evidence when conducting assessments. Atos Healthcare is under Mr Hoban: The information you requested is in the contract and is directly accountable to the Department. following table:

2012 £ July August September October November December

Compulsory redundancy — 45,588 — — — — 327W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 328W

2012 £ July August September October November December

Voluntary redundancy — 119,759 — 41,823 163 — Voluntary exit 3,148,615 234,934 139,627 353,019 — 427 Total 3,148,615 400,280 139,627 394,843 163 427 Note: The small balances in November and December relate to corrections made to previous redundancy payments.

Remploy The date of payment is not collated centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate costs. Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on what occasions Ministers in his Department have met with trades union consortium Social Security Benefits: Barnsley officers on the closure of Remploy sites. [134504] Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Esther McVey: I have had contact with representatives and Pensions how many people in Barnsley Central from the Remploy trade unions in face to face meetings, constituency will be affected by planned changes to (a) stakeholder events and through correspondence. I have disability living allowance, (b) under occupancy rules listened and responded to their views and opinions on in social housing, (c) the benefit cap, (d) council tax the progress of the Stage 1 process, as I have done with benefit and (e) the social fund. [135842] other stakeholders.

Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Steve Webb: The information is as follows: and Pensions which (a) contracts, (b) buildings, (a) The available information on personal independence (c) plant and machinery, (d) equipment and (e) other payment (PIP) is published in the Reassessments and assets of Remploy Abertillery have been sold. [135810] Impacts briefing note. This can be found on the Department’s website at: Esther McVey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pip-reassessments-and- given to the hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr impacts.pdf Cunningham) on 20 December 2012, Official Report, Information on current disability living allowance column 935W. caseloads at a parliamentary constituency level can also Social Security Benefits be found on the Department’s website at: http://83.244.183.180/100pc/tabtool.html Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) No estimates are available for the social sector Work and Pensions what proportion of claims for benefits under-occupancy measure at parliamentary constituency are paid out (a) within 16 days following receipt of the level. Regional estimates of impacts are provided in the claim and (b) after 16 days following receipt of the impact assessment at: claim. [135410] http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-sector-housing-under- occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf Mr Hoban: The latest information available is for April to November 2012 and is outlined in the following (c) A table showing the parliamentary constituency table. breakdown of those affected by the benefit cap has been placed in the Library and can be found at: For JSA and ESA we can give the percentage of claims cleared within 16 days. http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2012- 1587/LibraryDocument125527.pdf For income support, data is not collected at 16 days. The nearest available measure is percentage of claims The figures presented above are consistent with the cleared within 13 days. recent impact assessment published on 16 July 2012. In making these estimates we assume that the situation of April to November 2012 these households will go unchanged, and they will not Benefit (Percentage) take any steps to either work enough hours to qualify for working tax credit, renegotiate their rent in situ, or JSA Claims percentage cleared 85.7 find alternative accommodation. In all cases the Department in 16 days is working to support households through this transition, ESA Claims percentage cleared 82.6 using existing provision through Jobcentre Plus and the in 16 days Work programme to move as many into work as possible. IS Claims percentage cleared in 89.8 13 days Therefore, please note that these figures are subject to change prior to the policy being implemented in April Source: MISP 2013. Clearance times reflect the end point at which claims (d) Estimates of how many people will be affected by are cleared and notification issued to customer. This the change from council tax benefit to localised support may not be the date of first payment in every case (for are not available at a parliamentary constituency level. example a claim may be cleared before the first payment The number of people affected will depend on the is due or customers may not be entitled to benefit decisions by local authorities about the design of their payments, e.g. JSA credits only customers). schemes. 329W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 330W

(e) We do not have any estimates on how many http://83.244.183.180/5pc/sp/cccntry/ccsex/ people will be affected by the social fund reforms that a_stock_r_cccntry_c_ccsex_sep11.html are due to take effect from April 2013 at a parliamentary Such pensioners are classified as “overseas frozen” in constituency level. the dataset. As part of the reforms some social fund discretionary Guidance for users is available at: payments will be abolished. Funding is being provided http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/tabtools/guidance.pdf for new and better targeted local provision through local authorities in England’, and through arrangements Note: made by the Scottish and Welsh Governments. The The data are based on the country of residence at September local provision will be tailored to local circumstance 2011. The numbers quoted include people who are temporarily resident in an ″overseas frozen″ country who would be eligible for and integrated with other local support services. Local up-rates because they remain ordinarily resident in Great Britain. authorities in England are currently finalising the design of their own local schemes including eligibility criteria. This means we are unable to provide any estimates of Unemployment how many people will be eligible under each local authority scheme. John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition universal credit will provide a better Work and Pensions how many people were classed as service, of payments on account, supporting many people underemployed in (a) Glasgow North West constituency, in need of short and longer term credit facilities. These (b) Glasgow, (c) Scotland and (d) the UK in (i) 2009, necessary reforms simplify the current complex, poorly (ii) 2010, (iii) 2011 and (iv) 2012. [135965] targeted and remote system, and ensure that support is focused on those who really need it. Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Cabinet Office. Social Security Benefits: Fraud The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work to reply. and Pensions what the level of (a) customer error and (b) fraudulently claimed overpayment was in claims Letter from Glen Watson, dated January 2013: for (i) pensions credit, (ii) jobseeker’s allowance and As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I (iii) income support due to the incorrect declaration of have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking (A) full-time earnings, (B) part-time earnings, (C) how many workers were classed as underemployed in (a) Glasgow partner earnings, (D) capital, (E) dependants, (F) North West constituency, (b) Glasgow, (c) Scotland and (d) the income, (G) a partner, (H) identification, (I) address, UK in (i) 2009, (ii) 2010, (iii) 2011 and (iv) 2012. 135965 (J) housing costs, (K) other benefits, (L) college, (M) Time-related underemployment is defined by the International hospitalisation, (N) maintenance payments, (O) non- Labour Organisation (ILO) as occurring where the number of hours of work for an employed person is insufficient, and that the dependants, (P) a prison stay and (Q) other reasons in person is willing to engage in more work and is not already each of the last four years. [135112] working more than a specified number of hours. Based on the ILO definition and the data available, employed Mr Hoban: The information will be placed in the people (aged 16 or over) are classified as underemployed if: Library. they are willing to work more hours because they want an The information is not available in the format requested additional job, a replacement job with longer hours, or want for categories C, H and N. Such information as is more hours in their current job available for category C is included in the tables under they are available to start working longer hours within 2 weeks categories A and B; category N is included in the tables and under category F. the hours they worked in the reference week did not exceed State Retirement Pensions: British Nationals Abroad 40 hours (if they are under 18 years of age) or 48 hours (if they are over 18 years of age). Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Estimates for the number of underemployed workers are available from the Annual Population Survey (APS). They are available for Work and Pensions what representations he received in the datasets that cover the year October to September, for example 2012 from the Australian Government on frozen state the estimates for 2009 are based on the dataset that covers the pensions for expatriate pensioners now living in that year from October 2008 to September 2009. country. [135874] The estimates are supplied in the table. Steve Webb: Issues relating to UK pensioners in It is not possible to provide reliable estimates of the number of underemployed workers in the Glasgow North West constituency Australia were discussed with representatives of the due to small sample sizes. Australian Government on several occasions in 2012. The estimates are derived from the APS and are not seasonally adjusted. As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for subject to a margin of uncertainty. Work and Pensions how many expatriate pensioners do 1 2 not receive an annual uprating of their UK state Number of underemployed workers in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 for Glasgow, Scotland and the UK pension. [135876] Thousand Steve Webb: Data on the number of pensioners residing 2009 2010 2011 2012 in countries outside the EEA with which the UK does Glasgow 24 29 28 29 not have a bilateral agreement covering up-rating can City be found at: Scotland 198 228 232 245 331W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 332W

Number of underemployed workers1 in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 20122 for Mr Hoban: The Department does not hold information Glasgow, Scotland and the UK on the number of employment advisers employed by Thousand Work programme providers, or information on the numbers 2009 2010 2011 2012 receiving different types of training. UK 2,383 2,622 2,642 2,876 1 Underemployed workers are those people over 16, in employment and wishing to work more hours, either in their current job, in a replacement job or in an additional job. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS They must also be working under 40 hours a week if they are between 16 and 18 and under 48 hours a week if they are over 18. Finally they must be able to start working longer hours within the two weeks Banks: Assets following the survey. 2 The data for each year run from the October in the previous year to the September of the named year, e.g. the 2012 estimates are based on Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for data from October 2011 to September 2012. Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Source: made of the statement in the Financial Stability Report APS person datasets published by the Financial Services Authority and the Bank of England in November 2012, that current Universal Credit accounting standards permit the overvaluing of bank assets; and if he will make a statement. [136057] Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what his most recent estimate is of the Jo Swinson: The Financial Stability Report acknowledges number of people in each parliamentary constituency that the need to revise international accounting standards who will receive less in universal credit than they to improve the approaches taken to determining provisions receive currently in welfare payments. [135840] for losses on loans has been recognised. The Government continues to press the International Accounting Standards Mr Hoban: The information requested is not available. Board and the European Commission to prioritise the development and agreement of an improved standard Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for for use within the European Union. Work and Pensions how the Universal Credit system will handle a statement of an employee’s earnings in a Consumer Information given period, obtained from the employer in a PAYE real time information (RTI) submission, where the hash in the RTI submission cannot subsequently be Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, matched by HM Revenue and Customs; and if he will Innovation and Skills which companies have signed up make a statement. [136010] to the midata initiative. [135847]

Mr Hoban: The universal credit system will calculate Jo Swinson: The Department issued a list of businesses individual payments based on information received from that have formally agreed to work towards the midata employers and earnings reported by the claimant where principles on 3 November 2011. Those agreeing to be RTI is not available. For any individual universal credit involved were: claimant, the lack of a matching cross reference, where Avoco Secure one would be expected, will be just one of a number of Billmonitor; factors taken into account in assessing whether checks British Gas; need to be made into any particular claim. Callcredit; Work Programme EDF Energy; E.ON; Mr Woodward: To ask the Secretary of State for Garlik; Work and Pensions how much funding his Department Google; has provided to Work Programme providers in (a) St Lloyds Banking Group; Helens South and Whiston constituency, (b) Merseyside, MasterCard; (c) the North West and (d) the UK to date. [134998] Moneysupermarket.com; Mydex; Mr Hoban: The total paid to Work programme providers Npower; in the UK is £337.9 million from the start of the programme through to 30 July 2012, i.e. the period RBS; covered by the statistical release. Due to commercial in Scottish Power; confidence considerations we are not able to release Scottish Southern Energy; financial data below the national level at this time. The UK Cards Association; Three; Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many employment advisors Visa. work as part of the Work programme; and how many Since then we have worked with other businesses on such advisors have received training in assisting (a) midata to promote the voluntary release of data to their those with (i) mental health difficulties and (ii) physical customers in an electronic format. We plan to review disabilities and (b) lone parents. [136270] the progress of the voluntary programme in the summer. 333W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 334W

Redundancy Letter from Peter Mason, dated 7 January 2013: I am responding in respect of the National Measurement Office (formerly the National Weights and Measures Laboratory) Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, to your Parliamentary Question tabled on 19 December 2012, Innovation and Skills how many posts have been asking the Secretary of State of the Department for Business, declared redundant by each of his Department’s Innovation and Skills about the number of posts declared redundant Executive agencies and non-departmental public in the Department’s executive agencies in each year since 1999 bodies in each year since 1999; and what has been the and the cost of those redundancies. cost of those redundancies in each such year. [135475] There have been two occasions since 1999 where former staff of this Agency have received redundancy payments as a result of their post being declared redundant—one in the financial year Jo Swinson: I have approached the chief executives of 2007/08 and one in the financial year 2008/09. I am not able to the Insolvency Service, Companies House, the National disclose the amounts of compensation paid for reasons of the Measurement Office, the Intellectual Property Office, Data Protection Act, but I can say that in both cases compensation UK Space Agency, Ordnance Survey, Met Office, Land equivalent to the statutory minimum entitlement was paid. Registry and the Skills Funding Agency and they will Letter from David Evans, dated 7 January 2013: respond to the hon. Member directly. On 19 December 2012 you tabled the following parliamentary This Department does not hold this information question; centrally regarding its non-departmental public bodies To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and and it could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Skills, how many posts have been declared redundant by each of his Department’s executive agencies and non-departmental public Letter from Emma Lord: bodies in each year since 1999; and what has been the cost of Thank you for your question addressed to the Minister of those redundancies in each such year. State for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, The following table shows the figures requested. We had no asking how many posts have been declared redundant by each of redundancies until 2008/9. For clarification, we have taken the his Department’s executive agencies and non-departmental public number of posts to mean FTE posts. There are two sets of figures bodies in each year since 1999; and what has been the cost of as follows. The first relates to in year redundancy costs. The those redundancies in each such year. (135475) second is the total costs for those staff aged between 50 and 60 The UK Space Agency became an executive agency of the leaving under early retirement terms. These costs are estimates Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on 1 April 2011. because they will need to be adjusted for future inflation. The answer to the question is that no posts have been declared redundant since then. Redundancy cost incurred Total cost of Letter from Paul McGuire, dated 7 January 2013: during the those In response to the above Parliamentary question requesting year redundancies information on the numbers and costs of redundancies, please Financial year Posts (FTEs) (£ million) (£ million) find as follows the information for the Skills Funding Agency since its inception in 2010: 2008/09 259.6 5.89 16.81 2009/10 866.2 47.98 59.04 Year 2010/2011 2010/11 701.8 43.68 61.11 225 redundancies costing £12,643,000 2011/12 512.9 36.40 32.80 Year 2011/2012 Total 2,340.5 133.95 169.76 427 redundancies costing £13,110,000 I hope the information provided is useful. Letter from Richard Judge, dated 7 January 2013: Letter from Sean Dennehey, dated 8 January 2013: The Secretary of State for Business Innovation and Skills has I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office asked me to reply to your question how many posts have been to your Parliamentary Question tabled 19th December 2012, to declared redundant by each of his Department’s executive agencies the Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and and non-departmental public bodies in each year since 1999; and Skills. what has been the cost of those redundancies in each such year. The Intellectual Property Office has had a number of voluntary The Insolvency Service has not declared any posts redundant severance or surplus schemes in this period as it looks to ensure it since 1999. retains the right skills mix despite changing technology and However, there have been a number of departures under voluntary demand. Surplus staff are moved within the Office or the wider exit schemes based on the terms of the Civil Service Compensation civil service in line with Civil Service protocols. The amounts Scheme which were open to all of The Service’s staff. shown are the total cost of the departure charged to the Office, without any discounting, when the decision is made. Earlier years In 2010-11 The Service’s Voluntary Early Retirement/Voluntary are not available without disproportionate effort. Exit Scheme resulted in costs of £17,257K and the total number of exit packages was 470. In 2011-12 The Service’s Voluntary Early Retirement/Voluntary Exit Scheme resulted in costs of Number £000 £1,701K and the total number of exit packages was 67. 2011/12 17 460 When an Insolvency Service role ends employees are given the 2010/11 1 8 opportunity for redeployment before a paid exit is considered. 2009/10 16 1,710 Letter from Tim Moss, dated 3 January 2013: 2008/09 101 7,653 I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary 2007/08 1 55 Question tabled 19 December 2012, to the Secretary of State for 2006/07 0 0 Business, Innovation and Skills, UIN 135475. 2005/06 53 2,571 Companies House has declared a total of three posts redundant 2004/05 0 0 during the prescribed period with two in 2011 and the other in 2003/04 0 0 2012. The costs of those redundancies totalled £108,409.23 in 2002/03 1 267 2011 and £40,788.28 in 2012. 335W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 336W

Letter from John Hirst, dated 8 January 2013: Jo Swinson: The Government do not have sufficient I am replying on behalf of the Met Office to your Parliamentary information to answer this question, for the following Question tabled on 19 December 2012, UIN 135475 to the reasons. Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. Although employers proposing to make collective Data on the number and cost of redundancies and other paid redundancies have a duty to notify the Secretary of exits from 2009-10 are provided in the following table. Prior to State in advance, they are not required to inform him of 2009-10 the information requested could only be provided at disproportionate cost. when their consultation closes. The Government conducted a call for evidence on the Number of current collective redundancy regime from November Number of other 2011 to January 2012. Following this, the Government compulsory departures Total consulted on a package of reforms from June to September redundancies agreed payments (£) 2012. On both occasions, the Government asked for 2009-10 0 10 382,000 data on how long it took to reach agreement in collective 2010-11 6 8 784,000 redundancy consultations. However, on neither occasion 2011-12 4 46 2,844,000 did many directly answer the question. For those that did, the indication was that timescales ranged from Letter from Vanessa Lawrence, dated 8 January 2013: 14 days to six months. As Director General and Chief Executive of Ordnance Survey, I have been asked to reply to you in response to your Parliamentary John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Question asking the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation ″ Innovation and Skills with reference to the Government and Skills how many posts have been declared redundant by response on changes to the rules on collective redundancies, each of his Department’s executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies in each year since 1999; and what has been the cost what steps he plans to take to encourage employers to of those redundancies in each such year″. extend consultation beyond the minimum 45 day period The following table shows the number of Civil Servants who where necessary; and when he plans to review the have left Ordnance Survey via a redundancy or early retirement impact of any changes. [135942] process for the period April 2002 to January 2013. Figures for the period 1999 to 2002 are not held centrally and could only be Jo Swinson: The call for evidence and consultation provided at disproportionate cost. that Government has carried out on the current collective redundancy regime showed that consultations can and Number of Early retirement do last longer than the minimum period and we expect redundancies costs in year (£000) that to continue where circumstances make this appropriate. April 2002 to March 355 38,182 In addition, I have asked the Advisory, Conciliation 2003 and Arbitration Service (ACAS) to work with stakeholders April 2003 to March 15 2,622 to produce new non-statutory guidance that will promote 2004 best practice for good quality consultation and engagement April 2004 to March 31 960 between employers and employees. This will emphasise 2005 the need for meaningful consultation. April 2005 to March 45 2,892 2006 The Government will introduce the new 45-day period April 2006 to March 7 477 in April. We will review the operation and impact of the 2007 shorter statutory period on the labour market once we April 2007 to March 6 796 have had time to see its full effect. 2008 April 2008 to March 10 936 River Severn 2009 April 2009 to March 194 18,295 2010 Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for April 2010 to March 40 3,052 Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer 2011 of 13 December 2012, Official Report, column 461W, April 2011 to March 11 422 on River Severn, whether public funds have been provided 2012 to (a) Cardiff Metropolitan university and (b) Cardiff April 2012 to January 9 272 university for research and promotional activities relating 2013 to the Severn barrage since October 2010. [135002] Provision for voluntary release costs are incurred in the financial year that agreement is reached, however the actual date of leaving Mr Willetts: Neither the Research Councils nor the organisation may occur in the following financial year. Technology Strategy Board have funded work on the The average pay-out made each year fluctuates significantly Severn Barrage; although we are unable to tell if research owing to various factors including the numbers, ages, seniority funded by the councils and performed within Cardiff and length of service of those leaving, as well as the Civil Service Metropolitan or Cardiff university relates indirectly to Compensation Scheme in operation at the time of departure. elements of the Severn Barrage study. I hope this information is of use.

John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Students: Finance Business, Innovation and Skills in how many cases of collective redundancy the duration of the consultation Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for undertaken by the employer was (a) 45 days or fewer, Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on (b) 90 days or fewer and (c) more than 90 days in the the future of the 19 to 25 Learning Entitlement Grant; last three years. [135939] and if he will make a statement. [135997] 337W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 338W

Matthew Hancock: The ‘Skills Funding Statement The Department for Education and Ofqual, the 2012-2015’, published on 6 December 2012, sets out the independent regulator for qualifications and examinations, eligibility for funding for learners aged 19 and over. take allegations of exam malpractice very seriously. Details can be found in the table on page 7 of the Responsibility for investigating allegations of malpractice statement at: and issuing penalties (where appropriate), for any candidate http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/further-education-skills/ or exam centre, is a matter for exam boards. docs/s/12-p172-skills-funding-statement-2012-2015.pdf Bright Futures Training: Veterans Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) what relationship the Bright Futures Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for educational organisation has with his Department; Business, Innovation and Skills what support the what role it plays in respect of the Department’s Government is providing to former army personnel to operations; and where it is located in the Department’s retrain for civilian roles within and outside the armed structure; [134750] forces. [135767] (2) what role in respect of his Department (a) Dana Matthew Hancock: This Department works with the Ross and (b) Jerry Andrews have at the Bright Futures Ministry of Defence (MOD) to prepare army personnel educational organisation; how much each receives from for civilian life. public funds; and by whom each is paid. [134751] MOD has a significant programme of activity to help Elizabeth Truss: Bright Futures is an approved sponsor army personnel make the transition to life and work and was established in August 2011. The Trust is led by outside the forces. The Career Transition Partnership Dana Ross-Warwzynski, the executive head teacher of provides a resettlement service to eligible service leavers Altrincham Grammar School for Girls, and currently that helps personnel make a successful transition to sponsors Cedar Mount Academy, Gorton Mount Primary civilian employment in a suitable second career appropriate Academy and Stanley Grove Primary Academy. All to their skills, knowledge, experience and aspirations. schools sponsored by Bright Futures are in the area of Those who have completed six years service or more are East Manchester. entitled to an individual resettlement training costs grant to help meet the costs of training during resettlement. Sponsors make a huge contribution to Academies, Access is also provided to training that translates skills bringing drive, expertise and capacity as well as experience developed in the armed forces into equivalent civilian from a wide variety of backgrounds and sectors. Sponsors qualifications. play a pivotal role in turning round and improving the life chances of pupils in some of the most disadvantaged The adult skills budget, with its significant flexibilities and under-performing schools in the country. for colleges and further education providers, supports skills provision for adults in general. Two specific schemes Bright Futures is not located within the Department’s support army personnel in preparing for civilian roles structures. after leaving the forces. Dana Ross-Warwzynski is the chief executive officer The Service Leavers scheme pays the tuition fees for and executive head teacher of the Bright Futures Education certain service leavers to gain a first full Level 3 qualification Trust. We do not hold information on Jerry Andrews. or a first higher education qualification, up to and The Trust receives funding from the Education Funding including a first degree. Agency. The use and allocation of these funds, including Support for those ex-service personnel who wish to the payments they make to their employees, is a matter start up in business, or need support in the early days of for each Trust. Academy Trusts are charitable companies a new business, is provided through the Be the Boss and are required to file their accounts with Companies scheme, set up with £5 million of funding from this House, through which they are available for public Department. Be the Boss is run by the Royal British inspection. Legion and has successfully funded 194 businesses with Children: Protection 1,946 ex-service personnel now preparing to set themselves up in business. Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) what steps he is taking in response to the findings of the Serious Case Review of Child EG published by the Westminster Safeguarding Children EDUCATION Board; [135814] (2) what steps he is taking following the findings of Bellerbys College the Serious Case Review of Child Z published by the Croydon Safeguarding Children Board in October Dame Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011. [135723] Education what reports he has received on allegations of falsification of exam results at Bellerbys Colleges; Mr Timpson [holding answer 7 January 2013]: The and what steps he proposes to take to investigate such two serious case reviews that you refer to contained a allegations. [135763] number of recommendations for central Government. These relate to the responsibilities of several Government Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education has Departments. I am responding as I have ministerial received no reports or representations regarding alleged responsibility in Government for policy on serious case exam malpractice involving Bellerbys Colleges. reviews. 339W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 340W

Officials of the Department are liaising with those £ Departments to clarify the latest position on the issues the recommendations raise. Because of the time of year July 72,122.31 it has not yet been possible to collate all of that information. August 90,409.26 I will therefore write with a full reply to your questions September 96,303.67 shortly. October 83,711.54 November 109,437.58 Education: Assessments December 1— 1 TBC. At the time of submitting this response, final figures for Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State December were unavailable as not all invoices had been received. for Education what recent assessment he has made of English Baccalaureate the potential benefits of introducing a UK-wide public examination system. [124293] Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 22 October 2012]: Education when he will publish the results of his public The public examination system is devolved to the Northern consultation on the English Baccalaureate. [135394] Ireland Executive, the Welsh Government and the Scottish Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 7 January 2012]: We Government. We have no plans to seek to change that are currently reviewing the responses that we have received position. during this public consultation and anticipate reporting the results early in 2013, once we have considered them Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State fully. for Education what steps he plans to take to ensure that the views of those schools in Northern Ireland who sit Equality GCSE examinations through English and Welsh Boards are taken account of in any consultation on Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for new examination arrangements for England. [124294] Education what proportion of staff in his Department have received training in equality and diversity and the Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 22 October 2012]: requirements of the Equality Act 2010, within the last We announced in September our intention to introduce three years. [134589] new English baccalaureate certificates. As qualifications policy is a devolved matter, our decision to replace Elizabeth Truss: In line with the Government policy GCSEs with high-quality qualifications, matching the of embedding equality as an integral part of policies best in the world, applies to England only. Our proposals and programmes, the Department builds equality and for implementing our reforms are now the subject of diversity into all staff development and training and in consultation, and we will welcome and consider any 2010 ran specific workshops across the organisation to views which teachers, parents, students and others in explain changes to the Equality Act and how it would Northern Ireland choose to submit. impact on our people and our work. Information on the numbers of staff who received Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State training is not held centrally could be obtained only at for Education how often he has met his counterparts in disproportionate cost. Northern Ireland and Wales to discuss the current examination arrangements at GCSE and A level in the Free School Meals last year. [124295] Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 22 October 2012]: Education (1) what his policy is on provision of free The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. school meals under universal credit; [135119] Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), (2) if he will estimate the cost of extending free has not met the Minister for Education in Northern school meal entitlement to all (a) primary and (b) Ireland or the Minister for Education and Skills in secondary school children living in households (i) with Wales to discuss current examination arrangements at a total income below £16,190 and (ii) in receipt of GCSE and A-level in the last year. An invitation has universal credit. [135120] been extended to the Ministers to meet me to discuss our proposals for English baccalaureate certificates and Mr Laws [holding answer 7 January 2012]: The reform of A-levels. Government’s aim is to ensure that, as universal credit is gradually introduced from 2013, the criteria by which Employment Agencies children in primary and secondary schools are entitled to free school meals are fair, simple, and easily integrated Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for into the way that schools currently provide free school Education what the total spending on recruitment meals. We are also seeking to minimise additional costs agencies by his Department was in each month from to the public purse from any changes. July to December 2012. [135219] We are therefore working with the Department for Work and Pensions to simplify free school meals criteria Elizabeth Truss: The Department has spent the following under universal credit, while ensuring that free school amounts on the provision of temporary (agency) staff meals continue to be available to the families who need through the two recruitment agencies with which it has them most. We are also working closely with local a contract. authorities and other interested parties. 341W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 342W

The following table provides current estimates of the Lost Stolen Total additional cost: of (i) extending free school meal entitlement to families who will be entitled, to universal credit with 2010-11 a total income (excluding benefits income) of below Laptops 0 6 6 £16,000; and (ii) of extending entitlement to all families BlackBerry devices 11 8 19 who will be entitled to universal credit. Estimates for Signify Tokens 404 precisely £16,190 are not available. This compares with (remote access) a total estimated cost of free school meals in 2012-13 USB Memory 10 0 10 under current criteria of £460 million. All figures are in Sticks today’s prices. 2011-12 £ million Estimated additional cost (per year) Laptops 5 9 14 of extending FSM to: Primary1 Secondary1 Total BlackBerry devices 15 7 22 Signify Tokens 11 8 19 Families entitled to UC with total 163 126 289 (remote access) income below £16,000 (excluding USB Memory 325 benefits income) Sticks All families entitled to UC 453 311 764 1 Primary refers to pupils up to age 11, and secondary to pupils Information about mobile phones is not currently held 11-15, and each includes pupils in all provision including special centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate schools. cost. Health Education: Drugs All DFE IT equipment is fully security encrypted. The replacement cost of laptops includes encryption- Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for software to allow the handling of sensitive material up Education what assessment he has made of the role of to ‘Restricted’ and to meet the Code of Connection for drugs education within the curriculum; what representations the Government Secure Intranet. his Department has received on the nature and effectiveness Office for Standards in Education of drugs education; whether he plans to review such evidence; and what steps he intends to take to improve Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for the quality and prevalence of drugs education in schools. Education what arrangements are in place to ensure [135128] accountability of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Schools to (a) the Government and (b) Parliament. Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 7 January 2013]: Pupils are currently taught about the negative physiological [135000] effects of drugs as part of the statutory National Curriculum Mr Laws: Ofsted is a non-ministerial Government Programmes of Study for science, and may also receive Department, with a non-executive board that sets the wider drugs education as part of non-statutory Personal, strategic objectives and holds Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector Health and Economic (PSHE) Education. Revised draft (HMCI) to account for the delivery of his functions. programmes of study for both subjects will be sent out HMCI is required to make an annual report to the for consultation in due course and consultation responses Secretary of State for Education, the right hon. Member received will be taken into account before final programmes for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), which is laid before of study are published later this year. Parliament, presenting key inspection findings. Ofsted is also required separately to publish an annual report Health Education: Sex and accounts in line with HM Treasury requirements for Government Departments. HMCI is accountable Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for Education directly to Parliament and is called to give evidence how many students have been removed from secondary twice annually to the Education Committee, to account school sex education classes, on the discretion of their for his performance and for Ofsted’s operational activities. parents or guardians in (a) Hastings and Rye constituency, Ministers meet regularly with the chief inspector to (b) East Sussex and (c) the UK in each year since discuss a range of issues. 1997. [135374] Ofsted Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 7 January 2013]: The Department does not collect data about the removal Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for of pupils from Sex and Relationship Education (SRE). Education how many inspectors were engaged by Ofsted who had (a) qualified teacher status and (b) lay inspector ICT status in each of the last five years. [134999]

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Mr Laws: This question is a matter for Ofsted. Her how many (a) computers, (b) mobile telephones, (c) Majesty’s Chief Inspector, Sir Michael Wilshaw, has BlackBerrys and (d) other pieces of IT equipment were written to the hon. Member, providing him with the lost or stolen from his Department in (i) 2010-11 and information requested, and a copy of his response has (ii) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [135285] been placed in the House Libraries. Letter from Sir Michael Wilshaw, dated 3 January 2013: Elizabeth Truss: The following departmental IT Your recent Parliamentary question has been passed to me, as equipment has been lost or stolen in the period requested: Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for response. 343W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 344W

Ofsted carries out inspections under section 5 of the Education Elizabeth Truss: The Government pledged to publish Act 2005. These provisions came into force on 1 September 2005 these details following the Olympic and Paralympic and replaced much longer inspections which were previously Games and will do so shortly. carried out under section 10 of the School Inspection Act 1996. The teams that carried out the s10 inspections included ’lay Playing Fields: Schools inspectors’ as required by that legislation. However, the effect of the legislative changes which took place under the Education Act Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State 2005 was to repeal the provisions relating to the use of lay for Education whether it is his policy that (a) academies inspectors. Lay inspector status therefore ceased to exist when Ofsted started carrying out section 5 inspections in September and (b) free schools must notify (i) his Department and 2005. (ii) any other public body of the sale of school playing fields; and if he will make a statement. [129786] Following the introduction of section 5 inspections, just two types of inspector have carried out inspections under section 5. These are Her Majesty’s Inspectors (HMI), directly employed by Mr Laws: No disposal of publicly funded playing Ofsted, and additional inspectors, employed by the Inspection field land held for the purposes of an academy or free Service Providers, contracted to deliver inspections of behalf of school—whether that land is held freehold by the Academy Ofsted. Trust or leased to them—may take place without the Since the introduction of section 5 inspections, additional consent of the Secretary of State for Education, the inspectors have all had to be appropriately trained and then right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove). presented for ‘sign off’ by HMI before they can be deployed on The exact circumstances of that consent differ according inspections. In addition, where an additional inspector has not to who holds the land and how. For maintained schools been used on an inspection for 12 months they must be re-presented. and land leased by an academy from a local authority Following the changes to the inspection process introduced by for less than 10 years, consent is granted under Section 77 the Education Act 2005, a small number of additional inspectors of the School Standards and Framework Act (SSFA) who were previously experienced lay inspectors continued to be deployed on inspections, until a decision was taken by the Chief 1998. Applications made under section 77 of the SSFA Inspector in July 2012 to cease their deployment. are considered by the School Playing Fields Advisory Panel. For land where the Academy Trust owns the All of Her Majesty’s Inspectors (HMI) who currently undertake section 5 school inspections are required to have a teaching freehold (or where it is held by another charitable Trust qualification and to have been teachers. This includes those such as a Diocese) consent is obtained under Schedule 1 qualified to teach in the 14-19 age range. Ofsted has not directly to the Academies Act 2010. These cases do not go engaged lay inspectors in the last five years. before the panel—but are still subject to detailed scrutiny We have obtained information on additional inspectors from by officials and a final decision by Ministers using the our three Inspection Service Providers (Tribal, Serco and CfBT). same criteria as are set out for applications made under The figures represent those inspectors who are engaged in inspecting section 77. schools under section 5 only. We are only able to give the figures Sale proceeds must be used to improve sports or from September 2009 as this is when we entered into the current contracts with our Inspection Service Providers. The information education facilities, and we will only agree to the sale of prior to this date is not available to us. Please note that qualified playing fields if the sports and curriculum needs of the teacher status (QTS) is interpreted as QTS or the equivalent academy and its neighbouring schools can continue to teaching qualification, because many of the workforce became be met. qualified to teach prior to the Introduction of QTS. As part of the request for consent, those proposing The data have been supplied by each of our Inspection Service disposal will need to confirm that relevant local authorities Providers and, as there are a number of Inspectors who inspect and minor authorities (such as district councils) are across the three contracts, there may be a small element of consulted. Any subsequent sale would also be subject to duplication in the numbers of both those with QTS or equivalent local planning procedures and consents. and those without. Procurement Additional Inspectors Additional Inspectors with without QTS (‘Lay QTS or equivalent Inspectors’) Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many civil servants in his Department regularly 2009/10 1,569 59 deal with procurement services. [135664] 2010/11 1,653 58 2011/12 1,858 59 Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education currently Since 26 October 2012, there are no inspectors without QTS or employs 48 civil servants in the central Commercial equivalent teaching qualification inspecting schools under sections. Division who regularly deal with procurement services. A copy of this reply has been sent to David Laws MP, Minister The Department has a devolved procurement process of State for Schools, and will be placed in the library of both and so there are also a number of other civil servants in Houses. policy directorates who would regularly deal with procurements services, the number of these members of Olympic Games 2012 staff are unknown. Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for how many procurement officers in his Department have Education which events at the London 2012 Olympics relevant procurement qualifications. [135665] and Paralympics were attended by each Minister in his Department using tickets or passes for which they did Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education currently not pay personally; and what the cost was of attending employs 43 procurement officers of which 33 have each such event for members of the public who used completed the relevant procurement qualification’s and comparable seats or had comparable access. [135653] a further six are part-qualified. 345W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 346W

Pupil Exclusions: Suffolk Number of voluntary early Financial year releases Cost (£ million) Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many children were permanently excluded from 2011-12 177 9.3 (a) primary, (b) middle, (c) upper and (d) secondary 2010-11 141 7.7 schools in Suffolk in each of the last three years. 2009-10 185 23 [134837] 2008-09 93 6.5 2007-08 117 1.9 Elizabeth Truss: The available information is shown in the following table. 2006-07 156 10.6 2005-06 204 15.1 Number of permanent exclusions in state-funded primary and secondary schools in Suffolk local authority area1,2,3, years: 2008/09 to 2010/11 Number of permanent exclusions Available information for the Department’s non- departmental public bodies is as follows: Of which: State- State- Middle April 2011-March 2012 funded funded deemed Voluntary Compulsory primary secondary secondary Total4 releases Cost releases Cost

2008/09 6 75 n/a 80 Children and 19 £459,000 67 £456,000 2009/10 11 57 n/a 70 Family Court 2010/11 7 50 * 60 Advisory and Support Service n/a = Not available. (CAFCASS) ‘*’ = Less than 5. 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. Children’s 34 £412,000 0 0 2 Includes primary academies. Workforce 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies (including Development all through academies). Council (CWDC) 4 Totals have been rounded to the nearest 10. General Teaching 80 £1.494 7 £130,000 Source: Council for million School Census England (GTCE) National College 30 £1.386 00 For 2008/09 and 2009/10, the Department carried out (NC) million a checking exercise to confirm the overall number of Office for the 1 £11,500 0 0 permanent exclusions. This confirmed the number of Children’s primary and secondary phase exclusions in each local Commissioner authority area but not at school level, therefore information (OCC) for middle schools is not separately identifiable prior to Office of 00 00 Qualifications and 2010/11. For 2010/11, middle schools can be identified Examinations but to separately identify upper secondary schools would regulation incur disproportionate cost. (Ofqual) The latest data on exclusions was published in the Office of 1 £21,000 0 0 Standards in “Permanent and Fixed Period Exclusions from Schools Education, in England 2010/11” Statistical First Release on 25 July Children’s 2012 at: Services and Skills (Ofsted) http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001080/ Partnerships for 21 £1.36 00 index.shtml Schools (PFS) million Qualifications and 50 £1.087 00 Curriculum million Redundancy development Agency (QCDA) Schools Food 1 £18,500 4 £105,000 Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Trust (SFT) (1) how many civil service posts have been made Training and 00 00 redundant by his Department in each year since 1999; Development and what has been the cost of redundancies in each Agency (TDA) Young People’s 5 £384,000 0 0 such year; [135460] Learning Agency (2) how many posts have been declared redundant (YPLA) by each of his Department’s Executive agencies and April 2010-March 2011 non-departmental public bodies in each year since Voluntary Compulsory 1999; and what has been the cost of those redundancies releases Cost releases Cost in each such year. [135461] British 143 £4.6 27 909,650 Educational million Elizabeth Truss: The Department (and its predecessors) Communications and Technology has not made any staff redundant but has agreed voluntary Agency (BECTA) early releases. 347W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 348W

April 2010-March 2011 2012 Voluntary Compulsory Total amount of releases Cost releases Cost compensation paid Month Number of staff (£) Children and 79 £1.49 40 £1.52 Family Court million million October Less than 5 201,500 Advisory and November 0 0 Support Service December Less than 5 90,000 (CAFCASS) Children’s 11 £130,000 0 0 Workforce Schools: Catering Development Council (CWDC) Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Education General Teaching 00 00how many support staff have been employed in the role Council for England (GTCE) of cook or catering assistant in schools in (a) 2012 to [134475] National College 20 £288,000 0 0 date and (b) 2011. (NC) Office for the 00 00Elizabeth Truss: In November 2011 the head count Children’s number of staff employed in the roles of cook and Commissioner ’other catering staff’ directly employed by publicly funded (OCC) schools in England was 10,710 and 29,330 respectively. Office of 00 00A further 5,770 cooks and 9,150 other catering staff Qualifications employed by third party agencies were also recorded as and Examinations regulation being employed in these schools. The information is (Ofqual) from the School Workforce Census, November 2011. Office of 26 £1.1 00The information requested for 2012 is expected to Standards in million become available in April 2013. Education, Children’s Schools: Public Footpaths Services and Skills (Ofsted) Partnerships for 12 £475,000 0 0 Nigel Adams: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Schools (PFS) how many school playgrounds and playing fields owned Qualifications 140 £6 00by schools are crossed by public footpaths; how many and Curriculum million such footpaths have been diverted for security reasons; development and how many have been closed in the last 10 years. Agency (QCDA) [135078] Schools Food 12 £213,000 4 £67,500 Trust (SFT) Training and 21 £1.9 00Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education does Development million not collect or hold this information. Agency (TDA) Young People’s 00 00 Schools: Standards Learning Agency (YPLA) Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Information for earlier years could be obtained only Education what plans he has to reform school league at disproportionate cost. tables. [135004] Mr Laws: We have already made significant reforms Redundancy Pay to school performance tables. The new tables include much more data than ever before, bringing together Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Education information on attainment, school finance, school what the total amount of redundancy pay paid to civil workforce, Ofsted reports and pupil absence into one servants in his Department was in each month from easily accessible site. The last secondary school tables July to December 2012. [135217] contained four times more data than the previous year. From 2014, only high-value qualifications will count in Elizabeth Truss: The Department has not made any secondary school performance tables. This will encourage redundancy payments. However, it has funded a number schools to enter students for qualifications that are of approved voluntary exits over the period. All most likely to help them progress to further study or compensation payments have been made in line with employment. Civil Service Compensation Scheme rules and these This term, we will launch a consultation on further payments are set out in the following table: reforms to school accountability, in preparation for the 2012 introduction of the new English Baccalaureate Certificates. Total amount of The consultation will ask how we can ensure that the compensation paid performance tables recognise schools that support all Month Number of staff (£) their students to achieve their best, and how we can July 0 0 minimise any perverse incentives in the accountability August 0 0 system. We also plan to consult on further reforms to ensure that only high-value qualifications count in the September Less than 5 28,500 performance tables for 16-19 education providers. 349W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 350W

Secondary Education Abbreviation School Type

Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for AC Academy Sponsor-Led Education what the (a) name, (b) URN and (c) ACC Academy establishment number of each maintained secondary ACF Academy Free School school was in the latest year figures are available; what ACS Special Academy proportion of pupils at each such school (i) were entitled CTC City Technology College to free school meals, (ii) had special educational needs CY Community School with statements or school action plans, (iii) spoke English CYS Community Special School as a second language, (iv) achieved five or more GCSEs FD Foundation School at grade C or above and (v) achieved the English FDS Foundation Special School Baccalaureate; and what the (A) average uncapped GCSE, VA Voluntary Aided School (B) key stage 2 to 4 centre value-added and (C) key VC Voluntary Controlled School stage 2 to 4 raw value added score was at each such school. [134700] The 2012 School (Key Stage 4 and Key Stage 5) Performance Tables are planned to be published at the Elizabeth Truss: The 2011 School Performance Tables end of January 2013. include a wide range of indicators for each state-funded secondary school; this information is available on the Special Educational Needs departmental website here: http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/2011/ Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for download_data.html Education what proportion of people aged (a) 16 and The following table indicates in which file at the (b) 17 who are currently not in education, employment above link (Census or KS4 Results) the requested or training have a special educational need or disability; information can be found and how the required columns and what specific (i) additional support funding and (ii) are identified: top-up funding he has allocated to meet the needs of these young people in the next three years. [133635] Requested information File name Column name Mr Timpson: At the end of 2011, data available from School name KS4 SCHNAME local authorities evidenced that 6.9% of 16 year olds Results and 10.3% of 17-year-olds with learning difficulties Unique Reference Number (URN) KS4 URN and/or disabilities were not in education, employment Results or training. This compares with 3.7% and 5.4% among Establishment Number KS4 ESTAB all 16 and 17-year-olds. Results The new High Need Students funding reforms provide a new fairer, simpler and more transparent funding Percentage of pupils at each state- funded school that: system. This approach provides local authorities and Were entitled to free school meals Census PNUMFSM education institutions with greater flexibilities through, Had special educational needs with Census PSENSAP for example, the introduction of a lagged system that statements or School Action Plus guarantees funding in future years when institutions Spoke English as a second language Census PNUMEAL take on additional students, and through negotiations Achieved five or more GCSEs at KS4 PTAC5 between local authorities and institutions on the number grade C or above Results of learners that will be supported. Achieved the English Baccalaureate KS4 PTEBACC One major aspect of the funding reforms is to bring Results together all funding for students with high cost additional needs using common principles, in which local authorities At each state-funded school: will be both commissioner and funder. This gives an The average uncapped GCSE point KS4 TTAPS enhanced role to local authorities and each will have a score per pupil Results single high needs budget to cover their education funding The key stage 2-4 centre value-added KS4 B8VAMEA responsibilities for all high needs children and young measure based on the best 8 GCSE Results people aged 0 to 25 resident in their area. and equivalent results Funding will be by three distinct elements. Element 1, The key stage 2-4 raw value added KS4 B8VAMEA- measure based on the best 8 GCSE Results 1000 core education funding and element 2, the first £6,000 and equivalent results of additional student support, will be funded by the Education Funding Agency. Element 1 funding will be Definitions for each indicator are available from the used for the course(s) being studied and will be based following link: on Education Funding Agency funding formula using http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/2011/ lagged student numbers. Element 2 will be allocated metadata.html based on the number of places each local authority has told the Education Funding Agency it wishes to commission Further information can be accessed by clicking the at each institution. Element 3, top up funding, will be ’plus’ next to “KS4 Attainment Results” or “Census funded directly by the local authority. This is the funding data” headings. required above elements 1 and 2 to meet the total costs State-funded (i.e. LA maintained, Academy and Free of the education provision, and is based on the student’s School) secondary schools are identified in the NFTYPE assessed needs and the setting in which those needs are column as follows: to be met. 351W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 352W

There is not a specific budget for young people aged Mr Laws: The following table provides the number 16 to 17 not in education, employment or training who and percentage of publicly funded primary schools in have learning difficulties and/or disabilities because many each decile of deprivation which had no full-time equivalent of these young people will be accommodated within qualified male teacher and those with fewer than 10% mainstream provision such as schools, academies, colleges, full-time equivalent qualified male teachers in service in and apprenticeships providers, but the total budget for England, November 2011. High Needs Students aged 16 to 24 in 2013-14 will be, some £640 million, which includes programme costs. Publicly funded primary school1 numbers and percentages in each decile of deprivation2 which had no full-time equivalent qualified male teachers and those which had fewer than 10% full-time equivalent Teachers qualified male teachers in service—November 2011—England Publicly funded primary schools with: Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for No qualified males Greater than zero and Education what the (a) turnover and (b) wastage rate fewer than 10% qualified was for (i) full-time and (ii) part-time teachers in each males school in the most recent year for which figures are Decile deprivation4 Number Percentage3 Number Percentage3 available. [135337] 0-10% 310 19.1 300 18.9 Elizabeth Truss: The information is not available in 10-20% 310 20.2 330 21.5 the format requested. 20-30% 350 22.4 280 17.5 The data held by the Database of Teacher Records could in theory provide teacher turnover and wastage 30-40% 380 23.8 270 17.2 data at a school level. However, the Department does 40-50% 390 23.2 250 14.7 not consider the information to be robust enough to 50-60% 490 26.5 230 12.5 produce reliable data at this level. As a result this school 60-70% 570 30.9 200 11.1 level information is not produced by the Department 70-80% 600 31.0 230 11.9 and it is therefore not available to share as requested. 80-90% 560 30.0 190 10.1 The reason why the Department believes the data are not reliable enough to produce these types of school 90-100% 420 27.5 190 12.4 level indicators is because the Database of Teacher Total 4,370 25.7 2,470 14.5 Records is incomplete. The data are derived from the 1 Includes nursery schools and excludes 294 schools for which information records held in respect of the administration of the is not available. Teachers’ Pensions Scheme. Consequently there are 2 The index of deprivation used is the Index of Deprivation Affecting limitations on the scope of the information that is Children,(IDACI) 2012, for the Super Output Area in which the school lies. The index was supplied by the Department for Communities received. For example we know that the number of and Local Government. part-time teachers is under-represented as well as those 3 Percentage of the total number of schools in each decile. on short-term contracts, unqualified teachers, and those 4 0-10% is the most deprived decile, 90-100% the least deprived. that have opted-out of the scheme. In addition other Note: information is missing because of the time it takes for School numbers are rounded to the nearest 10. Source: the records to be updated. This is outside our control. School Workforce Census, November 2011 In order to produce the published national and regional estimates of teacher turnover and wastage the data from the Database of Teacher Records are compared with teacher data from other sources, chiefly the School Teachers: Qualifications Workforce Census and in earlier years the form 618g survey, and weighted to ensure it reflects accurately the national position on teacher numbers. Consequently, this process is not currently applied at school level. Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for National and regional full-time and part-time figures Education how many people obtained each type of are published in the additional tables C1 and C2 of the school-based qualification offered in IT in 2011; what April 2011 statistical first release ‘School Workforce in assessment he has made of the value of such qualifications England, November 2010 (Provisional)’ which is available to the UK communications industry; and if he will at the following web link: make a statement. [135361] http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/datasets/ a00196713/school-workforce-sfr Figures are still provisional for 2008-09 and 2009-10 Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 7 January 2013]: In and are subject to change. 2011 a total of 427,658 pupils took a school-based qualification in IT. The number obtaining each type of qualification is shown in the following table. The Secretary Teachers: Male of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), made a statement on Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for the limitations of some IT qualifications in January Education how many and what proportion of primary 2012 in response to reports from leading experts, including schools in each decile of deprivation had (a) zero and NESTA, the Royal Society and e-Skills UK. Professional (b) fewer than 10 per cent full-time equivalent male bodies and the IT sector are now leading the design of teachers on their staff. [135335] new curricula for schools. 353W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 354W

Number of pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 achieving specific Number of pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 achieving specific qualifications, year 2010/11 (Final), coverage: England qualifications, year 2010/11 (Final), coverage: England Number of Number of pupils at end pupils at end of KS4 of KS4 achieving achieving Qualification type Subject qualification Qualification type Subject qualification

IT VRQ Level 1 Computer aided 9 Design (CAD) Applied GCE AS level Applied ICT 263 VRQ Level 1 Computer 6,010 Cambridge International Information and 461 Appreciation/ Certificate Level 1/Level 2 Communications Introduction Technology VRQ Level 1 Computer help desk 22 Legacy iGCSE Information and 4 Operations Communications VRQ Level 2 Computer 153,008 Technology Appreciation/ Functional Skill at Level 1 Computer 14,130 Introduction Appreciation/ VRQ Level 2 Computer 45 Introduction Architecture/Systems functional Skill at Level 2 Computer 31,175 Appreciation/ Introduction Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for GCE AS level Computer Studies/ 269 Education how many people obtained each type of Computing school-based qualification offered in leisure and tourism GCE AS level Information and 666 Communications in 2011; what assessment he has made of the value of Technology such qualifications to the UK tourism industry; and if GCSE Full Course Computer Studies/ 53 he will make a statement. [135362] Computing GCSE Full Course Information and 35,575 Matthew Hancock [holding answer 7 January 2012]: Communications 13,911 school-based qualifications in leisure and tourism Technology were attained by students reaching the end of key GCSE Short Course Information and 26,430 stage 4 in 2011. A full breakdown of the number of Communications Technology students attaining these qualifications in 2011 can be found in the house Library. Key Skill at Level 1 Computer 718 Appreciation/ At key stage 4, we have introduced strict new conditions Introduction that determine which non-GCSE/iGCSE qualifications Key Skill at Level 2 Computer 3,091 can be included in performance measures. School Appreciation/ performance tables are now restricted to qualifications Introduction that are high quality, rigorous and enable progression to NVQ Level 1 Band B Computer 18 a range of study and employment opportunities. Appreciation/ Introduction 140 non-GCSE/iGCSE qualifications have met the NVQ Level 2 Band B Computer 41 conditions for inclusion in the 2014 key stage 4 performance Appreciation/ tables. 117 qualifications will be included in the 2015 Introduction tables. In both years, four qualifications in leisure and OCR National Award at Computer 115 tourism have met the required standard and will be Level 1 Appreciation/ included in the performance tables. The fact that these Introduction qualifications have been included indicates our confidence OCR National Award at Computer 73,909 that they are of high quality and provide students with Level 2 Appreciation/ Introduction a solid foundation for future progression. OCR National Certificate Computer 3 at Level 1 Appreciation/ Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Introduction Education how many people obtained each type of OCR National Certificate Computer 16,422 school-based qualification offered in engineering in 2011; at Level 2 Appreciation/ Introduction what assessment he has made of the value of such qualifications to the UK manufacturing and engineering OCR National First Computer 896 AwardatLevel1 Appreciation/ industry; and if he will make a statement. [135363] Introduction Other General Applied ICT 5,282 Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 7 January 2013]: In Qualification at Level 1 2011 a total of 16,020 pupils took a school-based Other General Applied ICT 53,430. qualification in Engineering. The number obtaining Qualification at Level 2 each type of qualification is shown in the following Principal Learning Principal Learning IT 94 table. The Department for Education has not undertaken (Diploma) —Level 1 a specific assessment of the value of school-based Principal Learning Principal Learning IT 1,686 engineering qualifications to UK manufacturing, but (Diploma)—Level 2 Professor Alison Wolf made an assessment of the value Vocational GCSE Double Applied ICT 3,833 of such qualifications as part of her recent review of Award vocational qualifications. 355W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 356W

Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 achieving specific include: to cover unexpected absences; short term peaks qualifications. Year: 2010/11 (Final). Coverage: England in workload; short term projects; or to cover a permanent Number of pupils at vacancy until the vacancy can be filled. end of KS4 achieving As a result of the spending controls on recruitment Qualification type Subject qualification introduced in May 2010, any use of contingent labour is subject to the efficiency controls process and requires Engineering ministerial approval. Applied GCE AS Applied 25 level Engineering Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Education BTEC First Automotive 389 how many temporary staff have been recruited in his Certificate Engineering Department in each month from July to December BTEC First Engineering Studies 3,511 Certificate 2012. [135218] BTEC First Diploma Automotive 221 Engineering Elizabeth Truss: The Department has recruited the BTEC First Diploma Engineering Studies 1,459 following number of temporary staff (fixed term GCSE Full Course Applied 1,249 appointments) during the period July to December 2012. Engineering GCSE Full Course D&T Engineering 414 Number GCSE Short Course D&T Engineering 16 July 14 NVQ Level 1 Band C Engineering Studies 590 August 2 NVQ Level 2 Band C Engineering Studies 1,057 September 1 Principal Learning Principal Learning 389 October 3 (Diploma)—Level 1 Engineering November 3 Principal Learning Principal Learning 2,262 1 (Diploma)—Level 2 Engineering December TBC 1 Vocational GCSE Applied 2,176 At the time of submitting this response, the fixed term appointment Double Award Engineering figures are unavailable. VRQ Level 1 Automotive 1,904 Young People: Databases Engineering VRQ Level 1 Building Services 3 John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Engineering Education what steps he is taking to ensure that local VRQ Level 1 Engineering Studies 456 authorities effectively track people aged 16 and 17 on VRQ Level 1 Manufacturing 145 the national client caseload following the raising of the Engineering participation age; and what plans he has to ensure that VRQ Level 2 Automotive 27 the number of young people who are categorised as not Engineering known is reduced. [135760] VRQ Level 2 Building Services 7 Engineering Mr Laws: The Department recognises that the proportion VRQ Level 2 Engineering Studies 1,563 of young people whose activity is not known in local VRQ Level 2 Manufacturing 102 authority databases is too high. To ensure the transparency Engineering of information and increase accountability, the Department VRQ Level 2 Mechanical 6 makes available on its website data about the proportion Engineering (General) of young people whose activity is not known by local authority. Through our Raising the Participation Age VRQ Level 2 Technical/ 49 Engineering local projects, we are supporting local authorities to Drawing develop and share effective practice in tracking young people’s participation. Temporary Employment The Department intends to publish statutory guidance for local authorities with regard to their duties under Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education the Raising the Participation Act legislation in early what amount his Department spent on interim staff as 2013. This will make clear their role in effectively tracking defined by the National Audit Office in (a) 2010-11 young people’s participation, and reporting this through and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. the national client caseload information system. The [135158] Department wrote to Directors of Children’s Services in 35 local areas in early 2012 to draw their attention to Elizabeth Truss: In response to this question, the their high ‘not known’ rates. This was followed by following information has been taken from the individual visits and discussions with five areas. Department’s published annual report and accounts for 2010-11 and 2011-12 respectively. JUSTICE Period Spend £ million Ashwell Prison 2010-11 4.1 2011-12 1.67 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice pursuant to the answer of 24 October 2012, Official The Department has contracts for the engagement of Report, column 857W, on Ashwell Prison, (1) what the staff and specialist contractors to cover short term valuation provided for the former Ashwell prison site requirements. Situations when resource may be hired was; [135807] 357W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 358W

(2) for what reasons the former Ashwell prison site (4) what the average number of reconvictions was for was not placed on the open market. [135808] each offender found guilty of rape between 1994 and 2011. [135812] Jeremy Wright: The former HMP Ashwell was valued at £1.34 million by the Valuation Office Agency. However Jeremy Wright: These questions have been answered if planning permission is obtained for residential using the Ministry of Justice’s published proven re-offending development or, (under specified circumstances) retail statistics for England and Wales, broken down further development, additional payments will be due to the by offence type. These statistics are published on a Ministry of Justice within a period of 20 years. The site quarterly basis and the latest bulletin, for the period was not placed on the open market as a sale to Rutland January to December 2010, was published on 25 October county council was assessed as representing best 2012. consideration for the tax payer under current market Table 1 shows the number of adult offenders in conditions. The sale of the site was completed on England and Wales who were released from custody or 14 December 2012. received a non-custodial conviction at court for offences Christmas of rape, robbery, grievous bodily harm and actual bodily harm in each of the years 2000, 2002 to 2010; and the average number of proven re-offences per offender. Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much his Department spent on Christmas The Ministry of Justice does not hold proven re-offending trees and decorations in each of its buildings in 2012; data for years prior to 2000; 2000 is the earliest year for how many (a) artificial and (b) real Christmas trees which proven re-offending data exist on a comparable his Department purchased in 2012; whether his basis and data are not available for 2001 due to a Department plans to re-use the artificial trees in 2013; problem with archived data on Court Orders. Data for whether the real trees were purchased from eco-friendly 2011 will be published on 31 October 2013. and sustainable sources; and how his Department plans A proven re-offence is defined as any offence committed to dispose of the real trees. [135021] in a one year follow-up period and receiving a court conviction, caution, reprimand or warning in the one Mrs Grant: The Department and its agencies, Her year follow-up. Following this one year period, a further Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) and six month waiting period is allowed for cases to progress the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) have not through the courts. incurred any expenditure on Christmas trees and Please note that proven re-offending statistics are decorations at any of their buildings in 2012. Decorations available from the Ministry of Justice website at: are usually paid for by the staff themselves. The small www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/reoffending/proven-re-offending numbers of Christmas decorations which have been placed in the reception areas have been recycled from Crimes of Violence: Sentencing previous years. In respect of the Department’s other Executive agency, the National Offender Management Jenny Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for Service (NOMS), no central records are maintained. To Justice (1) what the average custodial sentence handed provide information on the amount spent on Christmas down for actual bodily harm was in each year between trees and decorations in individual prisons would involve 1994 and 2011; [135746] incurring disproportionate cost. (2) what the average custodial sentence handed down for grievous bodily harm was in each year between Crimes of Violence: Reoffenders 1994 and 2011; [135747] (3) what the average custodial sentence handed down Jenny Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for for robbery was in each year between 1994 and 2011; Justice (1) what the average number of reconvictions [135748] was for each offender found guilty of grievous bodily harm between 1994 and 2011; [135754] (4) what the average custodial sentence handed down for rape was in each year between 1994 and 2011. (2) what the average number of reconvictions was for [135749] each offender found guilty of actual bodily harm between 1994 and 2011; [135755] Jeremy Wright: Average length of immediate custodial (3) what the average number of reconvictions was for sentences at all courts for the requested offences, in each offender found guilty of robbery between 1994 England and Wales, from 1994 to 2011, can be viewed and 2011; [135811] in the following tables.

Average length of immediate custodial sentence1 at all courts, by offence, England and Wales, 1994 to 20112,3 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002

Rape4 77.3 77.2 78.4 79.1 79.9 80.4 83.4 81.8 84.2 Grievous bodily harm5 38.2 39.7 45.8 44.1 43.9 45.8 45.0 48.0 46.5 Actual bodily harm6 6.8 7.4 7.8 7.8 7.5 7.8 8.0 8.5 9.3 Robbery 39.8 38.2 38.1 39.1 35.3 35.7 36.1 35.4 38.9

2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

Rape4 86.8 85.1 81.8 81.2 85.4 90.3 95.7 97.2 102.5 Grievous bodily harm5 50.3 48.6 48.6 46.5 43.7 49.4 52.1 54.2 59.8 359W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 360W

2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

Actual bodily harm6 9.2 9.8 10.1 10.5 10.7 11.0 11.2 11.3 11.5 Robbery 39.3 38.4 35.0 32.3 31.3 32.5 33.6 34.5 35.6 1 Excludes life and indeterminate sentences. 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 4 Includes offences under: Sexual Offences Act 1956 s1 and Sexual Offences Act 2003, s1 and s5 5 Includes offences under: Offences against the Person Act 1861, s18 6 Includes offences under: Offences against the Person Act 1861, S.47 (in part) Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice

Debt Collection Creating a single family court to make the system more effective and easier for users to navigate; Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Speeding up care cases, committing to limit the length of care Justice what steps he is taking to ensure that certified cases to 26 weeks, down from the then current average of 55 weeks; bailiffs undertake their duties in compliance with (a) legislation and (b) appropriate codes of conduct; and if Establishing a Family Justice Board to drive performance improvements in the system and improve management information. he will make a statement. [134985] Implementing the recommendations of the review is Mrs Grant: The “Transforming Bailiff Action” a Government priority and we are confident that the consultation considered the conduct and legislation programme of family justice reform can be successfully governing bailiffs. delivered within the context of the Ministry of Justice’s The Ministry of Justice is currently finalising the broader policies. The Ministry of Justice is working Government response to this consultation paper and with Her Majesty’s Court and Tribunal Service, the will issue this in due course. Legal Services Commission, the Department for Education and the Judiciary to implement the Review’s Driving Under Influence recommendations. We are making good progress. The Family Justice Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Board, independently chaired by David Norgrove, has what proportion of people convicted of drink drive been established and the legislation which will create a offences were found to be over the legal blood alcohol single family court is progressing through Parliament as limit when driving (a) 10 hours after taking their last part of the Crime and Courts Bill. Draft clauses which drink, (b) 24 hours after taking their last drink and (c) will take forward some of the other key recommendations 48 hours after taking their last drink in the last year for of the review, including the introduction of the new which figures are available; and if he will make a time limit for care cases, have recently been subject to statement. [135787] Pre Legislative Scrutiny by the Justice Select Committee.

Jeremy Wright: Information held centrally by the Prisoners: Rehabilitation Ministry of Justice does not contain information about the circumstances behind each case, beyond the description provided in the statute under which proceedings are Sir Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for brought. It is not possible to identify from this centrally Justice what progress he has made on the expansion of held information the time between an offender’s last the payment by results model to prisoner rehabilitation drink and the taking of the test which produced a schemes; and if he will make a statement. [135047] finding of the offender being over the legal blood alcohol limit. Jeremy Wright: We are running 14 pilot projects In 2011, there were 48,883 offenders found guilty at testing payment by results in different parts of the all courts in England and Wales of offences which justice system. In each case, providers will only be paid could be identified exclusively as drink-driving. in full if they achieve a specific outcome. In the case of the two pilots involving offenders released from Doncaster Family Justice Review and Peterborough prisons, some or all of the provider payments will be dependent on a reduction in reoffending. Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice We now intend to apply payment by results to the what assessment he has made of the consequences for majority of rehabilitation work conducted with offenders his Department’s policies of the conclusions of the in the community, as part of a broader package of Norgrove Report. [135306] reforms. This ’rehabilitation revolution’ will stimulate innovation and open the delivery of services to a wider Mrs Grant: The Government published its response range of providers with the skills needed to change an to the Family Justice Review on 6 February 2012. The individual’s behaviour and reduce future reoffending. response included the following priorities: We intend that these services should cover offenders Putting children at the heart of the process so that their needs released from prison, including those sentenced to less are the paramount concern; than 12 months in custody. 361W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 362W

Prisoners: Wales Rochester Stoke Heath Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Swansea how many (a) prisoners on remand and (b) convicted prisoners currently in custody have addresses in North Procurement Wales. [135087]

Jeremy Wright: The following table shows the number Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of remand and sentenced prisoners as at 28 September what the monetary value was of contracts awarded by 2012 who have a recorded address in a local authority his Department to (a) management consultancies and area that constitutes the North Wales geographical (b) IT companies in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if area: he will make a statement. [135177]

Number of prisoners Jeremy Wright: The total values of contracts awarded by the Ministry of Justice by category and financial Remand 97 year are provided in the following table. Sentenced 804 Total 901 (a) Management (b) IT companies consultants (£000) (£ million) The figures include remand and sentenced male and female prisoners, adults, young offenders and juveniles 2010-11 20 60.4 that are held in prisons and young offender institutions. 2011-12 0 40.4 These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording Redundancy Pay system, are subject to possible error with data entry and processing. Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Information on offenders’ residences is provided by what the total amount of redundancy pay paid to civil offenders on reception into prison and recorded on a servants in his Department was in each month from central IT system. Addresses can include a home address, July to December 2012. [135214] an address to which offenders intend to return on discharge or next of kin address and these figures are Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice has not made provided in the table above. any compulsory redundancy payments in the period If no address is given, an offender’s committal court July 2012 to November 2012 (the latest period for which address is used as a proxy for the area in which they are figures are available). However, it has funded a number resident. These figures are also included in the table of approved voluntary early departures and voluntary above. No address has been recorded and no court redundancies over this period. The total amount of information is available for around 3% of all offenders, these payments is given in the following table. these figures are excluded from the table above. £000 Prisons July 0 Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for August 12,527 Justice how many prisons have been re-designated as September 462 joint establishments containing both adult and young October 936 offenders’ institutions since May 2010. [135248] November 1,112 Total 15,037 Jeremy Wright: Youngadults (aged 18 to 21-years-old) sentenced to detention in a young offender institution All compensation payments have been made in line (DYOI) are detained in young offender institutions with civil service compensation scheme rules. (YOIs) as required by section 98 of the Powers of the Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000. These are normally Temporary Employment self-contained but in some establishments that have a dual designation (designed both as a prison and a YOI) young adults are held alongside adults with which they Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice share the majority of their facilities. Whatever the location, what amount his Department spent on interim staff as young adults detained in YOIs have separate sleeping defined by the National Audit Office in (a) 2010-11 accommodation. and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [135178] Since May 2010 the following prisons have been re-designated as establishments holding both adult and young offenders (aged 18 to 21-years-old): Jeremy Wright: In consideration of the National Audit Office definition of interim staff being Cardiff “people fulfilling ’business as usual’ roles within the current Forest Bank organisational structure that would otherwise be undertaken by a Northallerton salaried permanent member of staff”; Nottingham details of the specific individuals being utilised as temporary Portland replacements for permanent staff are not held centrally Preston and can be provided only at disproportionate cost. 363W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 364W

Young Offender Institutions: Christmas Young Offenders Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people under the age of 18 have been charged Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice with each offence since May 2005. [134913] what the cost has been to the public purse of Christmas parties held for those detained in each institution in the Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice do not hold secure youth estate, in each year since 2010. [135254] the information required to answer this question as we do not hold statistics centrally on the number of people charged. However the Ministry of justice holds Jeremy Wright: The Department does not keep a corresponding data on the number of prosecutions and central record of this data. To collate this information, the following table shows the number of defendants by contacting all youth secure establishments, would under the age of 18 prosecuted at magistrates court incur disproportionate costs. May 2005 to 2011.

Defendants under the age of 18 prosecuted at magistrates court May 2005-11 Offence 20051 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 Total

Violence 7,602 11,051 10,737 9,731 9,490 9,117 7,118 64,846 Against Person Sexual 796 987 1,009 868 884 987 858 6,389 Offences Burglary 5,685 8,185 7,908 6,991 7,029 6,816 6,298 48,912 Robbery 4,002 6,418 6,808 5,628 5,650 5,492 5,960 39,956 Theft and 13,848 20,021 21,494 18,409 16,936 15,946 14,355 121,009 Handling Fraud and 601 776 860 624 704 682 464 4,711 Forgery Criminal 3,011 4,742 4,623 3,250 2,434 2,319 1,816 22,195 Damage Drug Offences 3,574 4,977 5,855 6,928 6,955 6,672 5,757 40,718 Indictable 447 601 462 372 326 212 175 2,595 Motoring Other 5,941 8,016 7,527 6,041 6,309 6,386 4,859 45,079 Indictable (Not Motoring) Summary 30,684 45,674 47,489 42,921 39,149 35,828 29,195 270,940 Non-Motoring Summary 11,773 14,741 11,762 9,200 7,687 6,017 4,857 66,037 Motoring All Offences 87,964 126,189 126,534 110,963 103,553 96,474 81,712 733,389 1 2005 includes May to December only Source: Ministry of Justice

Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for problem with archived data on court orders. Data for Justice (1) how many people of each age between 10 2011 will be published on 31 October 2013. and 17 years who were convicted of a crime (a) went on to reoffend and (b) were subsequently sentenced to Table 1 shows the number of juvenile offenders in a prison term at an adult institution since 1 May 1998; England and Wales who were released from custody or received a non-custodial conviction at court in each of [135303] the years 2000, 2002 to 2010, by age; the number that (2) how many people of each age between 10 and 17 committed a proven re-offence within a one year follow-up have been cautioned since 1 May 1998; and how many period; and the number that were given a custodial such people (a) committed a further offence and (b) sentence for a proven re-offence. were later sentenced to a prison term in an adult institution. [135307] Table 2 shows the number of juvenile offenders in England and Wales who were cautioned in each of the Jeremy Wright: These questions have been answered years 2000, 2002 to 2010, by age; the number that using the Ministry of Justice’s published proven reoffending committed a proven re-offence within a one year follow-up statistics for England and Wales, broken down further period; and the number that were given a custodial by age. These statistics are published on a quarterly sentence for a proven re-offence. basis and the latest bulletin, for the period January to In both tables, the number of reoffenders who received December 2010, was published on 25 October 2012. a custodial sentence for a proven re-offence includes all The Ministry of Justice does not hold proven reoffending such offenders irrespective of where they served their data for years prior to 2000; 2000 is the earliest year for sentence. Information on those who were sentenced to which proven reoffending data exist on a comparable custody in an adult prison could be provided only at basis and data are not available for 2001 due to a disproportionate cost. 365W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 366W

A proven re-offence is defined as any offence committed Table 1: Proven reoffending data for juvenile offenders in England and in a one year follow-up period and receiving a court Wales who were released from custody or received a non-custodial conviction, caution, reprimand or warning in the one conviction at court in each of the years 2000, 2002 to 2010, by age year follow-up. Following this one year period, a further Proportion Number of of six month waiting period is allowed for cases to progress offenders reoffenders through the courts. Number of Number who given a offenders of reoffend custodial Please note that proven reoffending statistics are available Year1 Age in cohort2 reoffenders (%) sentence3 from the Ministry of Justice website at: 14 6,963 3,994 57.4 682 www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/reoffending/proven-re-offending 15 11,172 6,044 54.1 1,192 Table 1: Proven reoffending data for juvenile offenders in England and 16 14,567 7,379 50.7 1,756 Wales who were released from custody or received a non-custodial conviction at court in each of the years 2000, 2002 to 2010, by age 17 17,761 8,525 48.0 2,547 Proportion Number of of 2006 10 108 59 54.6 0 offenders reoffenders Number of Number who given a 11 440 242 55.0 15 offenders of reoffend custodial 12 1,407 848 60.3 78 Year 1 Age in cohort2 reoffenders (%) sentence3 13 3,409 1,973 57.9 303 2000 10 141 84 59.6 1 14 7,038 4,141 58.8 689 11 545 304 55.8 26 15 11,706 6,604 56.4 1,209 12 1,336 732 54.8 89 16 15,037 7,524 50.0 1,766 13 3,043 1,711 56.2 284 17 17,990 8,869 49.3 2,585 14 5,993 3,428 57.2 642 15 9,826 5,275 53.7 1,203 2007 10 107 48 44.9 0 16 12,970 6,790 52.4 1,769 11 467 262 56.1 21 17 17,268 8,687 50.3 2,838 12 1,492 808 54.2 62 13 3,476 1,946 56.0 252 2002 10 123 71 57.7 0 11 531 293 55.2 24 14 7,227 4,140 57.3 648 12 1,414 772 54.6 109 15 12,121 6,426 53.0 1,191 13 3,281 1,735 52.9 270 16 15,897 7,964 50.1 1,730 14 6,331 3,453 54.5 620 17 18,818 9,067 48.2 2,444 15 10,167 5,326 52.4 1,142 16 13,440 6,982 51.9 1,741 2008 10 64 35 54.7 1 17 17,670 8,771 49.6 2,631 11 427 236 55.3 11 12 1,219 664 54.5 57 2003 10 121 77 63.6 5 13 3,148 1,798 57.1 219 11 494 262 53.0 17 14 6,724 3,664 54.5 582 12 1,336 752 56.3 96 15 10,789 5,633 52.2 982 13 3,131 1,807 57.7 276 16 14,603 7,330 50.2 1,567 14 6,190 3,568 57.6 670 17 18,106 8,673 47.9 2,318 15 10,210 5,518 54.0 1,151 16 13,393 7,061 52.7 1,750 2009 10 45 20 44.4 1 17 17,536 8,799 50.2 2,582 11 287 143 49.8 11 12 1,009 520 51.5 47 2004 10 132 74 56.1 1 13 2,584 1,410 54.6 157 11 465 251 54.0 21 14 5,709 3,104 54.4 425 12 1,440 814 56.5 96 15 9,831 5,124 52.1 823 13 3,333 1,941 58.2 282 16 13,076 6,524 49.9 1,238 14 6,562 3,761 57.3 676 15 10,671 5,784 54.2 1,177 17 16,905 8,030 47.5 2,078 16 13,916 6,998 50.3 1,680 17 17,651 8,436 47.8 2,655 2010 10 29 13 * 0 11 200 98 49.0 9

2005 10 114 60 52.6 1 12 740 384 51.9 28 11 511 293 57.3 23 13 2,176 1,196 55.0 142 12 1,394 783 56.2 78 14 4,805 2,620 54.5 411 13 3,575 2,120 59.3 325 15 8,434 4,348 51.6 799 367W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 368W

Table 1: Proven reoffending data for juvenile offenders in England and Table 2: Proven reoffending data for juvenile offenders in England and Wales who were released from custody or received a non-custodial Wales who were cautioned in each of the years 2000, 2002 to 2010, conviction at court in each of the years 2000, 2002 to 2010, by age by age1 Proportion Number Proportion Number of of of of offenders reoffenders offenders reoffenders Number of Number who given a Number of Number who given a offenders of reoffend custodial offenders of reoffend custodial Year 1 Age in cohort2 reoffenders (%) sentence3 Year2 Age in cohort reoffenders (%) senence3

16 11,772 5,941 50.5 1,224 13 13,196 3,567 27.0 85 17 15,018 7,149 47.6 1,947 14 18,437 5,147 27.9 175 1 Data are not available for 2001 due to a problem with archived data 15 21,333 5,679 26.6 213 on court orders. 16 20,087 4,928 24.5 246 2 The group of offenders for whom reoffending is measured does not 17 17,288 4,236 24.5 319 represent all proven offenders. Offenders who were released from custody or commenced a court order are matched to the PNC database and a certain proportion of these offenders cannot matched. 2005 10 2,054 481 23.4 2 These unmatched offenders are, therefore, excluded from the proven reoffending measure. 11 4,390 1,044 23.8 11 3 If an offender is given a custodial sentence for more than one proven 12 8,993 2,233 24.8 28 re-offence, they are counted only once. 13 15,188 4,123 27.1 108 Notes: 1. Italics means less than 30 offenders—treat data with caution. 14 21,574 6,236 28.9 200 2. ‘*’ = Data based on less than 30 offenders are removed as they 15 24,301 6,662 27.4 271 make data unreliable for interpretation. 16 21,914 5,581 25.5 291 Table 2: Proven reoffending data for juvenile offenders in England and Wales who were cautioned in each of the years 2000, 2002 to 2010, 17 18,334 4,484 24.5 388 by age1 Proportion Number 2006 10 2,029 496 24.4 0 of of 11 4,673 1,164 24.9 7 offenders reoffenders Number of Number who given a 12 9,539 2,484 26.0 40 offenders of reoffend custodial 13 15,683 4,268 27.2 97 Year 2 Age in cohort reoffenders (%) senence3 14 22,732 6,506 28.6 177 2000 10 1,967 442 22.5 3 15 26,468 7,335 27.7 294 11 4,351 1,015 23.3 11 16 23,167 5,953 25.7 284 12 8,118 1,797 22.1 28 17 19,432 5,025 25.9 412 13 12,718 3,052 24.0 80 14 17,388 4,526 26.0 211 2007 10 1,920 428 22.3 1 15 19,090 5,097 26.7 281 11 4,537 1,021 22.5 8 16 17,221 4,455 25.9 324 12 9,383 2,109 22.5 34 17 15,485 4,183 27.0 437 13 15,294 3,923 25.7 84 14 21,796 5,754 26.4 160 2002 10 1,628 375 23.0 1 15 25,905 6,609 25.5 233 11 3,580 766 21.4 10 16 23,296 5,647 24.2 272 12 7,025 1,581 22.5 34 17 19,622 4,783 24.4 370 13 11,152 2,546 22.8 64 14 15,769 3,986 25.3 143 2008 10 1,473 314 21.3 1 15 17,870 4,473 25.0 210 11 3,533 725 20.5 5 16 17,195 4,227 24.6 237 12 6,793 1,562 23.0 16 17 16,472 4,168 25.3 306 13 11,570 2,949 25.5 61 14 16,961 4,608 27.2 113 2003 10 1,621 369 22.8 4 15 20,386 5,260 25.8 180 11 3,490 803 23.0 7 16 19,452 4,468 23.0 216 12 7,005 1,724 24.6 23 13 11,572 2,931 25.3 70 17 18,302 4,261 23.3 354 14 15,910 4,272 26.9 148 15 19,066 5,030 26.4 217 2009 10 920 183 19.9 1 11 2,227 420 18.9 3 16 18,107 4,568 25.2 245 17 16,837 4,167 24.7 316 12 5,051 1,086 21.5 16 13 8,817 2,123 24.1 33

2004 10 1,671 438 26.2 4 14 13,324 3,252 24.4 95 11 3,797 897 23.6 15 15 16,296 3,978 24.4 126 12 7,785 1,973 25.3 40 16 15,888 3,634 22.9 149 369W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 370W

Table 2: Proven reoffending data for juvenile offenders in England and Over the past year, we have supported: Wales who were cautioned in each of the years 2000, 2002 to 2010, by age1 www.localgiving.com Proportion Number a website that allows people to find and give to local of of charities and community groups. It also provides charities offenders reoffenders and community groups with a webpage and access to Number of Number who given a new supporters, volunteers and online donations. In offenders of reoffend custodial Year 2 Age in cohort reoffenders (%) senence3 April 2013 the Treasury will introduce the Gift Aid Small Donations Scheme enabling tens of thousands of 17 15,613 3,521 22.6 248 charities and Community Amateur Sports Clubs (CASCs) to claim a Gift Aid style payment on small cash donations 2010 10 500 102 20.4 0 for the first time. 11 1,317 290 22.0 0 I have regular discussions with charities on a range of 12 2,999 699 23.3 13 topics. 13 5,652 1,555 27.5 56 Charities: Closures 14 8,956 2,468 27.6 82 15 11,378 2,954 26.0 118 John Robertson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 16 12,013 2,915 24.3 127 Office if he will make an assessment of changes to the 17 12,369 2,962 23.9 226 workload of government-provided public services as a consequence of charities closing down in (a) Glasgow 1 Cautions include reprimands and warnings for juvenile offenders. 2 Data are not available for 2001 due to a problem with archived data North West constituency, (b) Glasgow, (c) Scotland on court orders. and (d) the UK. [135195] 3 If an offender is given a custodial sentence for more than one proven re-offence, they are counted only once. Mr Hurd: Charity Policy in Scotland is devolved, and a matter for the Scottish Government. In England and Wales, the number of registered CABINET OFFICE charities has remained relatively stable over the last three years. The Charity Commission had 162,848 main Buildings charities on its register at September 2012, up slightly from 160,515 in December 2009. Jon Trickett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Civil Servants: Freedom of Expression Office (1) what the total spend was on the refurbishment of 70 Whitehall from January 2012 to December 2012; Mr Burrowes: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet [135197] Office what assessment he has made of the implications (2) what the cost was of the refurbishment of 70 for his policy on freedom of speech for civil servants Whitehall in 2012. [135728] who are opposed to same sex marriage of the case between Mr Adrian Smith and Trafford Housing Trust. Mr Maude: The Modernisation Project of 70 Whitehall [135049] started in 2008. Information on the expenditure of Cabinet Office freehold buildings will be published in Mr Maude: Civil servants are required to conduct the Cabinet Office’s accounts in the usual way. themselves in accordance with the provisions of the Civil Service Code and the Civil Service Management Charitable Donations Code. John Robertson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Community Development Office (1) what steps he is taking to encourage public donations to charities in (a) Glasgow North West Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet constituency, (b) Glasgow, (c) Scotland and (d) the Office (1) (a) how many and (b) which host organisers UK; [135077] for community organisers have been appointed in each (2) what recent discussions he has had with charities local area; [135323] on trends in donations. [135196] (2) what criteria and outcome measures his Department will use to evaluate the delivery of the community Mr Hurd: Encouraging public donations to charities organisers programme in April 2015; [135322] in Scotland is a devolved matter for the Scottish (3) how many senior community organisers have Government. been trained to date. [135324] The Government is committed to encouraging people to give their time and money. The Giving White Paper Mr Hurd: Since the start of the programme 73 host announced a series of measures to encourage giving organisations have been appointed. such as the £30 million Social Action Fund and the £10 Details of the names of the host organisations and million Innovation in Giving Fund. The Giving White where they are located can be found at: Paper—One Year On update: http://www.cocollaborative.org.uk/members-hosts www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/sites/default/files/resources/17541- WP-Update-Version-2.pdf and here published in May 2012, details of our ongoing http://www.cocollaborative.org.uk/resource/become-host implementation of these measures. on the community organisers website. 371W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 372W

The Cabinet Office has appointed Ipsos MORI and 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 NEF Consulting to evaluate the Community Organisers programme and the Community First Neighbourhood Match Fund. England and As part of the evaluation the evaluators will design Wales relevant process and impact measures. Burglary in 280,696 284,431 268,606 258,165 245,314 The evaluation will feed learning back into the a dwelling programmes until it is published in 2015 at the end of Drug 229,913 243,536 235,584 232,922 229,102 offences the programmes. As of the most recent quarterly reporting (October These data have been published by the ONS and have been extracted from the ’Recorded crime data at local authority level 2012), 195 senior community organisers have been trained. from 2002/03’, ’Recorded crime data at police force area level from 2002/03’ and ’Crime Statistics: Appendix tables - Crime in Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet England and Wales’ files, available here: Office (a) how many and (b) where have Community http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference- First panels been established. [135325] tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-274949 The crime statistics data published by the ONS cover England Mr Hurd: Since the start of the programme 587 and Wales only. Crime data for Scotland are published at: Community First panels have been established across http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Crime- England. Justice The names and locations of the panels are listed by and data for Northern Ireland are published at: our delivery partner’s website: http://www.psni.police.uk/index/updates/updates statistics/ http://www.cdf.org.uk/content/funding-programmes/ update_crime_statistics.htm community-first/neighbourhood-matched-fund Employment Crime: North East Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Hepburn: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many and what proportion of people were Office (1) how many cases of drug offences were reported employed in the (a) private sector and (b) public in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South Tyneside, (c) the sector in each parliamentary constituency in each of North East and (d) the UK in each of the last five the last 15 years. [136344] years; [135953] (2) how many cases of domestic burglary were reported Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the in (a) South Tyneside, (b) the North East and (c) the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have UK in each of the last five years. [135962] asked the authority to reply. Letter from Glen Watson, dated January 2013: Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking asked the authority to reply. how many and what proportion of people were employed in the Letter from Glen Watson, dated January 2013: (a) private sector and (b) public sector in each parliamentary constituency in each of the last 15 years. (136344) As Director General for the Office for National Statistics (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions Public and private sector employment statistics for local areas asking for the numbers of reported cases of domestic burglary can be calculated from the Annual Population Survey (APS). and drug offences in (a) Jarrow constituency; (b) South Tyneside; Individuals in the APS are classified to the public or private (c) the North East; and (d) the UK in each of the last five years. sector according to their responses to the survey. (135953 and 135962) The tables show the number and percentage of people who Police recorded crime figures are provided for the last five were employed in the public or private sector, according to financial years (April to March) for South Tyneside local authority interviews held during the period October 2011 to September area; the North East region; and England and Wales. Crime data 2012, the latest period available, and the 12 month periods ending are not available at parliamentary constituency level. in December from 2004 to 2011. Estimates for current parliamentary constituencies are not available for periods prior to 2004. Estimates for parliamentary constituencies in Northern Ireland are not 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 available. As the information requested is quite extensive, a copy has been placed in the House of Commons Library. South Tyneside As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject local to a margin of uncertainty. A guide to the quality of the estimates authority is given in Tables 1 and 2. Burglary in 489 424 306 235 255 National and local area estimates for many labour market a dwelling statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant Drug 680 648 520 672 800 count are available on the NOMIS website at: offences http://www.nomisweb.co.uk

North East EU Law region Burglary in 10,881 10,408 8,597 7,818 7,646 Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office a dwelling (1) which regulations his Department introduced as a Drug 8,195 9,129 9,188 9,065 9,069 offences result of EU legislation in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which regulations his Department expects to 373W Written Answers9 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 374W implement as a result of EU legislation in (i) 2013 and the appointment of David Kennedy as Permanent Secretary (ii) the next two years; and what estimate he has made for the Department for Energy and Climate Change. of the cost of each such regulation to the (A) public [135898] purse and (B) private sector; [133690] (2) which EU directives his Department transposed Mr Maude: The appointment panel for Department in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which EU directives for Energy and Climate Change (DECC) competition his Department expects to transpose in (i) 2013 and (ii) advertised in July 2012 consisted of Sir David Normington, the next two years; and what estimate he has made of Chair of the panel and First Civil Service Commissioner; the cost of each such directive to the (A) public purse Sir Bob Kerslake, Head of the Civil Service; Paul Walsh, and (B) private sector. [133689] Lead Non-Executive Director for DECC and CEO of Diageo Plc; Professor Nicholas Stern, IG Patel Chair Mr Maude: My department is leading negotiations and Director, LSE; and Bronwyn Hill, permanent secretary for the UK in the EU Competitiveness Council on at DEFRA. proposals for revising the EU Directives relating to procurement by public bodies and utilities. These have Keith Vaz: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office not been adopted yet but should simplify the existing who is on the panel to decide on the appointment of procurement regime and, as such, should reduce costs the new Permanent Secretary to the Home Office. for purchasers and suppliers alike. [135899] The Cabinet Office is also leading negotiations for Mr Maude: The appointment panel for the Home the UK on proposals for a new EU Directive on the Office competition consists of Sir David Normington, procurement of ’concessions’ contracts. While the total Chair of the panel and First Civil Service Commissioner; economic costs to public purchasers and suppliers of Sir Bob Kerslake, Head of the Civil Service; Val Gooding, this new directive are estimated to be up to £17 million Lead Non-Executive Director at the Home Office; and including one-off costs of circa £0.5 million, the potential Sir Denis O’Connor, the former HM Chief Inspector of benefits to the UK economy have been estimated as Constabulary. over £27 million. Meetings Keith Vaz: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many current Permanent Secretaries of Government Kevin Brennan: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet departments are Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic. Office what meetings (a) he and (b) Ministers in his [135900] Department have attended since 4 September 2012. [136064] Mr Maude: None of the current permanent secretaries have declared that they are of Black, Asian or Minority Mr Maude: As part of my Department’s transparency Ethnic origin. programme, details of ministerial meetings with external organisations are published on the Cabinet Office website Redundancy Pay at: http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/ministerial- Jon Trickett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet gifts-hospitality-travel-and-meetings-external-organisations Office what the total amount of redundancy pay paid Cabinet Office Ministers also regularly meet with out to civil servants in his Department has been in each ministerial colleagues and officials. In line with previous month since July 2012. [135697] Administrations, the Government does not normally disclose details of internal meetings. Mr Maude: In 2010, this Government took decisive action to reform the Civil Service Compensation scheme. Official Hospitality As a result significant savings to the taxpayer have been realised. Where compensation payments have been made, Jon Trickett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Departments estimated that these costs would be recouped Office how much his Department spent on refreshments within a year. from July to December 2012. [135483] Audited information on redundancies and other paid Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the answers I departures in the Cabinet Office are published each year gave to the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke in the Cabinet Office Annual Report and Accounts. Newington (Ms Abbott) on 8 November 2012, Official Recent copies of the Annual Report and Accounts are Report, column 719W. available on the Cabinet Office website at: http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/cabinet- Permanent Secretaries office-annual-reports-and-accounts Audited figures for the year 2012-13 will not be Keith Vaz: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office available until the next Annual Report and Accounts who was on the appointment panel which recommended that will be published later this year.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 9 January 2013

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 304 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 304 Fuel Duty ...... 296 In-work Benefits ...... 300 SCOTLAND...... 295 Scottish Business Overseas ...... 295 Autumn Statement...... 303 Scottish Independence (Use of Sterling) ...... 298 Food Banks...... 301 Superfast Broadband ...... 302 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 9 January 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 17WS JUSTICE—continued Research Councils (Triennial Review) ...... 17WS Transforming Rehabilitation ...... 18WS

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 17WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 20WS Building Regulations Advisory Committee UK G8 Presidency ...... 20WS (Triennial Review)...... 17WS JUSTICE...... 18WS TRANSPORT ...... 20WS Law Commission (Triennial Review)...... 18WS Penfold Review ...... 20WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 9 January 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL HOME DEPARTMENT...... 6P AFFAIRS...... 5P Rohingya Community...... 6P Arpley Landfill Site ...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 9 January 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 332W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Banks: Assets ...... 332W continued Consumer Information ...... 332W Fire Service College ...... 276W Redundancy...... 333W Fire Services: Job Satisfaction...... 277W River Severn...... 336W Fraud ...... 277W Students: Finance ...... 336W Local Government: Freedom of Expression ...... 277W Training: Veterans...... 337W Local Government: Translation Services...... 278W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 278W Planning Permission ...... 278W CABINET OFFICE...... 369W Redundancy...... 278W Buildings...... 369W Senior Civil Servants...... 278W Charitable Donations...... 369W Staff ...... 279W Charities: Closures...... 370W Urban Areas ...... 279W Civil Servants: Freedom of Expression ...... 370W Video Conferencing ...... 279W Community Development...... 370W Crime: North East ...... 371W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 280W Employment ...... 372W Arts...... 280W EU Law...... 372W Deloitte...... 281W Meetings ...... 373W Mobile Phones ...... 281W Official Hospitality ...... 373W Procurement...... 282W Permanent Secretaries...... 373W Radio Frequencies ...... 282W Redundancy Pay ...... 374W Redundancy...... 282W Redundancy Pay ...... 283W Sick Leave ...... 283W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 275W Temporary Employment ...... 283W Early Intervention Grant ...... 275W Equality ...... 275W DEFENCE...... 285W Families: Disadvantaged ...... 276W Armed Forces: Housing Benefit ...... 285W Col. No. Col. No. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 269W HEALTH—continued Olympic Games 2012 ...... 269W Redundancy Pay ...... 299W Redundancy...... 269W Temporary Employment ...... 299W

EDUCATION...... 337W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 272W Bellerbys College...... 337W COE Convention on the Protection of Children Bright Futures...... 338W Against Sexual Exploitation and Sexual Abuse.. 272W Children: Protection...... 338W Communications Data Bill (Draft)...... 272W Education: Assessments ...... 339W Community Policing ...... 273W Employment Agencies...... 339W Drugs: Misuse...... 273W English Baccalaureate ...... 340W Entry Clearances...... 273W Equality ...... 340W Missing Persons ...... 274W Free School Meals...... 340W Police ...... 274W Health Education: Drugs ...... 341W Police: Electronic Equipment ...... 275W Health Education: Sex ...... 341W Police: Freedom of Expression...... 275W ICT ...... 341W Office for Standards in Education...... 342W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 284W Ofsted ...... 342W Members...... 284W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 343W Playing Fields: Schools ...... 344W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 300W Procurement...... 344W Afghanistan ...... 300W Pupil Exclusions: Suffolk ...... 345W Redundancy...... 345W JUSTICE...... 356W Redundancy Pay ...... 347W Ashwell Prison...... 356W Schools: Catering ...... 348W Christmas...... 357W Schools: Public Footpaths...... 348W Crimes of Violence: Reoffenders...... 357W Schools: Standards...... 348W Crimes of Violence: Sentencing...... 358W Secondary Education ...... 349W Debt Collection...... 359W Special Educational Needs...... 350W Driving Under Influence...... 359W Teachers...... 351W Family Justice Review ...... 359W Teachers: Male...... 351W Prisoners: Rehabilitation...... 360W Teachers: Qualifications...... 352W Prisoners: Wales...... 361W Temporary Employment ...... 355W Prisons ...... 361W Young People: Databases ...... 356W Procurement...... 362W Redundancy Pay ...... 362W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 306W Temporary Employment ...... 362W Wind Power: Seas and Oceans ...... 306W Young Offender Institutions: Christmas...... 363W Young Offenders ...... 364W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 300W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 286W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 300W Employment Agencies...... 286W EU Law...... 301W Procurement...... 287W Immigration...... 302W Redundancy...... 287W Inland Waterways: Conservation...... 302W Redundancy Pay ...... 288W Livestock: Transport ...... 303W Temporary Employment ...... 288W Nappies...... 303W Nappies: Waste Disposal...... 304W SCOTLAND...... 285W Smoke and Chimney Gases...... 304W Income Tax Personal Allowance ...... 285W VION Food Group ...... 305W Redundancy...... 286W Waste Management...... 305W Scottish Independence: Border Control ...... 285W Temporary Employment ...... 286W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 288W Tourism...... 286W British Indian Ocean Territory...... 288W Conditions of Employment...... 289W TRANSPORT ...... 269W Equality ...... 289W Employment Agencies...... 269W Redundancy...... 290W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 269W M6 ...... 270W HEALTH...... 290W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 271W Arthritis ...... 290W Procurement...... 271W Blood Diseases...... 291W Redundancy Pay ...... 271W Cannabis...... 291W Temporary Employment ...... 271W Care Homes: Merseyside...... 291W Equality ...... 293W TREASURY ...... 306W Health Services: Lancashire ...... 294W Air Passenger Duty ...... 306W Hospitals: Merseyside ...... 294W Business ...... 306W Medical Equipment ...... 295W Business: Taxation ...... 306W NHS Commissioning Board ...... 295W Child Benefit...... 307W NHS: Freedom of Expression...... 295W Corporation Tax: Energy ...... 307W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 296W Crown Lands and Estates ...... 308W Procurement...... 296W Deloitte...... 308W Redundancy...... 297W Employment Agencies...... 308W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY—continued WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 319W Equality ...... 309W Access to Work Programme ...... 319W Individual Savings Accounts: Children ...... 309W Charities ...... 319W Infrastructure...... 310W Children: Poverty ...... 319W Maternity Pay ...... 310W Comet Group...... 321W Minimum Wage ...... 310W Employment Agencies...... 321W National Insurance Contributions: New Employment and Support Allowance ...... 321W Businesses ...... 310W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 322W Northern Rock...... 311W EU Law...... 322W PAYE...... 311W Food Banks...... 323W Poverty: Children ...... 312W Future Jobs Fund...... 324W Procurement...... 313W Hepatic Angiosarcoma...... 324W Tax Avoidance: Construction...... 314W HM Courts and Tribunals Service...... 324W Taxation: Children ...... 314W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Peterborough...... 324W Temporary Employment ...... 315W Medical Records: Data Protection ...... 325W VAT ...... 315W New Enterprise Allowance: Lancashire...... 326W Welfare Tax Credits...... 317W Personal Independence Payment...... 326W Working Tax Credit ...... 318W Redundancy Pay ...... 326W Remploy...... 327W Social Security Benefits...... 327W WALES...... 284W Social Security Benefits: Barnsley ...... 328W Procurement...... 284W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 329W Redundancy...... 284W State Retirement Pensions: British Nationals Sovereignty ...... 285W Abroad ...... 329W Unemployment ...... 330W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 280W Universal Credit...... 331W Procurement...... 280W Work Programme...... 331W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 9 January 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 295] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Transforming Rehabilitation [Col. 315] Statement—(Chris Grayling)

Children (Performances) Regulations 1968 (Amendment) [Col. 337] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Tim Loughton)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [13th allotted day] Pub Companies [Col. 341] Motion—(Toby Perkins)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Vince Cable)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to Rising Cost of Transport [Col. 393] Motion—(Maria Eagle)—on a Division, negatived

Speed Limits (Rural Lincolnshire) [Col. 436] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Diabetes [Col. 77WH] Local Government (Leadership) [Col. 100WH] Living Wage [Col. 109WH] Special Educational Needs (Wirral) [Col. 135WH] Antibiotics (Intensive Farms) [Col. 142WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 17WS]

Petitions [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 269W] [see index inside back page]