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Prohibition of Depleted Uranium Weapons Bill 2009: Committee and Remaining Stages Wednesday, 17 November 2010

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Prohibition of Depleted Uranium Weapons Bill 2009: Committee and Remaining Stages Wednesday, 17 November 2010 Prohibition of Depleted Uranium Weapons Bill 2009: Committee and Remaining Stages Wednesday, 17 November 2010 SECTION 1 An Cathaoirleach: Amendment No. 1 has been ruled out of order on the grounds that it would expand the scope of the Bill. [825]Amendment No. 1 not moved. Senator Dominic Hannigan: I move amendment No. 2: In page 3, subsection (2), line 14, after “Minister” to insert “for Foreign Affairs”. The purpose of the amendment is to insert “for Foreign Affairs” after “Minister” because there is no definition of “Minister” in the Bill. Senator Dan Boyle: I thank the Labour Party Senators for proposing this amendment. I believe it is a drafting improvement and I am quite happy to accept it. Amendment agreed to. Question proposed: “That section 1, as amended, stand part of the Bill.” Senator David Norris: I seek an explanation, although perhaps it will not be possible to provide one. Did I understand the Cathaoirleach to state amendment No. 1 was ruled out of order because it caused a charge on the Exchequer? An Cathaoirleach: No, it was ruled out of order for expanding the scope of the Bill. Senator David Norris: I see. I thank the Cathaoirleach. Question put and agreed to. SECTION 2 An Cathaoirleach: Amendment No. 3 is ruled out of order as it would expand the scope of the Bill. Amendment No. 3 not moved. Question proposed: “That section 2 stand part of the Bill.” Senator David Norris: I do not mean to be pestiferous but how can a deletion expand the scope of a Bill? Surely it would contract it. Could I have an explanation on this? Senator Dan Boyle: I can speak on section 2 if it helps. Senator David Norris: Yes. An Cathaoirleach: It is outside the scope of the Bill. Senator David Norris: That is not what I asked; I know that. With the Cathaoirleach’s permission, the proposer of the Bill has offered an explanation. An Cathaoirleach: The amendment is out of order and we will not discuss it. Senator David Norris: He will speak on the section. An Cathaoirleach: If a Senator wishes to speak on the section he or she is entitled to. Senator David Norris: I think Senator Boyle does. Senator Dan Boyle: I am quite happy to expand on the decision on the proposed amendments. The Bill is quite specific on a category of weapons known as depleted uranium. The [826]deletion of the word “depleted” would mean the Bill would be about uranium weapons in general, which is a far wider scope and includes nuclear weapons which would require a far deeper definition. The Bill is meant to be narrow in its focus to achieve a certain goal and on those grounds the amendments have been ruled out of order. Question put and agreed to. SECTION 3 An Cathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 4 and 6 are related and will be discussed together, by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. Senator Dominic Hannigan: I move amendment No. 4: In page 3, to delete line 24 and substitute the following: “(1) No person may within the State (including on any Irish registered ship or aircraft), or, being an Irish citizen, whether within or without the State:”. It was remiss of me to fail to welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Dick Roche. I also welcome the Bill. It is a tremendous piece of work and I compliment Senator Dan Boyle on his work in bringing it to the House. I also wish to pay tribute to a previous Member of the House, Deirdre de Búrca, who was also instrumental in ensuring the Bill came before us. She has since moved on to other things; I believe she is alive and well and happy. It is only fair and right to record her influence in ensuring the Bill saw the light of day. We contend that amendment No. 4 is necessary because the Bill as drafted imposes obligations only on the State. We believe it should apply to all persons and I am interested to hear Senator Boyle’s response on this. Senator Dan Boyle: Amendments Nos. 4 and 6 are being discussed together. Does Senator Hannigan also wish to speak to amendment No. 6? Senator Dominic Hannigan: I thought they were grouped together but that I would speak to amendment No. 6 after. An Cathaoirleach: The two amendments are being discussed together. Senator Hannigan may speak to amendment No. 6 now but if he does not do so I cannot return to it afterwards. Senator Dominic Hannigan: I will speak briefly on amendment No. 6. We are concerned that the Bill as drafted has no penalties for breach of the obligations set out in it. Amendment No. 6 would insert a clause calling for penalties such as a term of imprisonment of ten years or a fine or both. We believe this would strengthen the Bill. Senator David Norris: With regard to amendment No. 4, I am curious to know what type of persons Senator Hannigan and the Labour Party have in mind for the functions that are involved. Perhaps, with reason, he would extend beyond the forces of the State — the State or its agencies — prohibition from testing, developing and producing uranium ammunition and armoured plate or from using, acquiring or disposing of depleted uranium in any way for military purposes. I wonder whether anyone other than prescribed or terrorist organisations or criminals would get involved in this type of thing. I would assume they might be covered by other aspects of the criminal law if they were so occupied. [827]I would have no difficulty with the amendment and I certainly support strongly its sentiments. I do not think anybody in the State should be messing around with this material. I support the intention of the amendment but I am curious to know what is the target of the amendment. Is there a feeling that there are people who are, as we speak, testing, acquiring or developing uranium ammunition, uranium armour-plate or other uranium weapons? I am reluctant to think so but perhaps I am just naive. I completely endorse amendment No. 6. The Bill will be toothless if we do not have penalties. There is no point in stating something is wrong and that it is prohibited unless there are penalties attached to such behaviour. My reading of this very admirably concise Bill does not suggest to me that there are any and this would seem to be a serious omission. There may be a technical reason for this; I do not know. I certainly encourage the formulators of this legislation to examine the possibility of including some penalty. If we want to deter people just ink on paper will not be very effective, particularly if they are the type of people who are interested in manufacturing, using or employing uranium ammunition, uranium armour-plate or other uranium weapons. I suppose this would only come into effect — because they are linked — if there were people in addition to the State who were involved. On the other hand, people who are in the employ of the State might well involve themselves in this despite the fact it was against the law and in that case they should be punished. I am not sure the State can punish itself but it can certainly punish its agents. I did not have the opportunity to welcome the Minister of State. I saw him on television last night on a programme. The Minister of State’s charming visage suddenly loomed at me out of the night and I expect he could have done with a bit of depleted uranium armour on that occasion. An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant to the Bill. Senator David Norris: But it is really because he might be manufacturing it in his back yard to protect himself against the assaults of the pseudo-intellectuals of the Dublin 4 media conspiracy. Senator Dan Boyle: I would never accuse Senator Norris of being naive. As regards the concept of the State being able to punish itself, we currently seem to be involved in a national self- flagellation exercise so it is obviously physically possible but whether it is possible in a more formal legal sense can be debated further. Amendments Nos. 4 and 6 are intrinsically linked because one follows on from the other. I am not unsympathetic towards them. Senator Norris has pointed out one of the difficulties involved in that there can only be two categories of people involved in both definitions being accepted; one category is Irish citizens involved in terrorist activities and the presumption is that this would in any case be precluded by existing legislation; the other category is members of the Defence Forces engaged in international duties and any proximity they may have to forces of other countries who have not taken this legislative approach of banning depleted uranium weapons. This might be a step too far and my hope is that if we pass all Stages of the Bill in this House that when adopted in another form in the other House and subsequently returned to this House we can return to the question of fines and imprisonment because it is important. On that basis I am not willing to accept these amendments as of now. Senator David Norris: I welcome the view that this is an incremental situation. We had this argument about the cluster bombs issue and most Members who have taken the trouble to be involved in this issue were also involved in that debate. It was the same situation in which some substantial armies, regrettably involving people who present themselves as defenders of western values, were quite prepared to use and manufacture cluster munitions until a pretty late stage.
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