COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES HOUSE GAME AND FISHERIES COMMITTEE
:N RE: HOUSE BILL 490
* * * * STENOGRAPHIC REPORT OF PUBLIC HEARING ON HOUSE BILL 490 HELD IN MINORITY CAUCUS ROOM. MAIN CAPITOL BUILDING, HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA, ON MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 13, 1993 2:00 P.M.
* * * *
HONORABLE THOMAS FEE, CHAIRMAN MEMBERS OF HOUSE GAME AND FISHERIES COMMITTEE HON. MATTHEW BAKER HON. MERLE PHILLIPS HON. LEONARD GRUPPO HON. TERRY SCHEETZ HON. STANLEY JAROLIN HON. BRUCE SMITH HON. JIM LYNCH HON. EDWARD STABACK HON. THOMAS MICHLOVIC HON. THOMAS TIGUE iLSO PRESENT: JODY HAFNER. RESEARCH ANALYST DAVID COMES, RESEARCH ANALYST
DOROTHY M. MALONE REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER 135 LANDIS STREET HUMMELSTOWN. PENNSYLVANIA 17036 ') Li
PRESENTER PAGE
PA FISH PRODUCERS 4 William Munch. President John O'Brien, Vice President William Schau, Treasurer Jerry Mathers, Commercial Fisherman Robert Minor, Commercial Fisherman 3
CHAIRMAN FEE: The hour of two having arrived we will caii the meeting to order.
Roil caii piease.
MS. HAFNER: Fee. CHAIRMAN FEE: Here. MS. HAFNER: Gruitza. Carone. Coiaizzo. Levdansky. Maynerik. MeGeehan. Michiovic. Oiasz. Staback. REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Here. MS. HAFNER: Surra. Tigue. VanHorne. Phiiiips.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Here.
MS. HAFNER: Godshaii. Baker.
REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Here.
MS. HAFNER: Gruppo.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUPPO: Here.
MS. HAFNER: Hasay. Hess. Lynch. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Here. MS. HAFNER: Merry. Scheetz.
REPRESENTATIVE SHEETZ: Here. MS. HAFNER: Smith. CHAIRMAN FEE: Representative Godshaii wiii be here shortly. Gentlemen have you decided which wants to proceed first? 4
(Affirmative response.)
CHAIRMAN FEE: Would vou kindly give your name and what organization you represent. Do you have a statement or are you just going to go?
MR. MUNCH: Yes, I have a statement. CHAIRMAN FEE: You don't have a printed statement?
MR. MUNCH: No. CHAIRMAN FEE: Okay. Give the lady your name. MR. MUNCH: I am William Munch. I am the President of the Pennsylvania, Lake Erie Pennsylvania Fish Producers.
To my left here is our Vice President John O'Brien. Treasurer William Schau.
And at this point I'd like to introduce the rest of the commercial fisherman who are license holders. This would be Jerry Mathers. Sitting next to him would be Bob Minor.
Over here we have Ray George and Jimmy Milewski. John O'Brien is here representing the people that work on the deck and also the employees of the Fish House. 5
CHAIRMAN FEE: When they make their statement they can let the Committee know who they are representing for the record.
Let the record show the addition of
Representative Jaroiin. Representative Smith and
Representative Tigue. You may proceed. MR. MUNCH: At this time I will turn this over to John O'Brien our Vice President who will talk a iittie bit about the tape that we have to present here today. MR. O'BRIEN: About three years ago Bill 1800 started with two local legislators on it to ban gill nets. The one local legislator was the prime sponsor. He no longer holds office. And the other local legislator is no longer a sponsor because he realizes the financial and political impact of House Bill 490.
Getting right on into it, when this started we had a talk show with Barry Dean Steinhagen on 1400 Radio. It was set up as a debate between the sportsmen and the commercial fishermen, only at the time that the show went on the sportsmen didn't show up. So I was on for two hours on this talk show answering questions, 6 fielding questions from the field which the sportsmen called in questions.
Barry then asked if he could go on our boat and one morning without notice Barry called and asked if he could go on the boat. We said the boat was leaving at five o'clock. Barry got on the boat and went with us.
When he came back and he started his talk show he had this tape. And I ask your patience and ask you to listen to this tape and I'll play it. Again, keeping in mind this is non- solicited. This is by the news media who makes their living by their reputation and truth. So this is a tape by Barry Dean Steinhagen.
(Playing of audio tape with following narration:)
"Thank you studio audience. Well my goodness. Welcome everybody for four hours of conversation with adventure and broadcasting.'
CHAIRMAN FEE: Are we going to have to listen to that for four hours?
MR. O'BRIEN: No. This is about seven minutes.
MR. SCHAU: Fourteen. MR. O'BRIEN: Fourteen minutes. I'm 7 sorry.
(Resuming of playing of audio tape. )
"Oh, what a day I have had. Oh my goodness. Where do I begin telling you about this very adventurous day that I had here in the Erie area.
First, I'm glad to have all of you aboard and we invite you to get involved in the conversation at 451-1400.
It's going to be kind of a sloppy show here today because we've not had our usual amount of preparation time that goes into this adventure in broadcasting every day, which we'll tell you the reason why here in just a minute.
Also the throat may be a little raspy and we'll tell you the reason why about that too as the afternoon unfolds.
And of course the lines are open and available to you at 451-1400 as we hash over the issues of the day over the old electronic back fence.
A little background as to what happened to my day today. First of all as many of you are aware of, but some of 6 you may not be aware of, there was a piece of legislation pending before the General Assembly of Pennsylvania, House Bill 1800.
House Bill 1800 would ban the use of gill nets by commercial fisherman, or by anybody really, amateur, commercial, whatever, on the Great Lakes by anyone from Pennsylvania.
Similar legislation has been enacted in Ohio and New York with some questionable effects. And it has become quite an issue between the sportsmen fishermen of the area and the commercial fishermen of which there are about seven businesses employing probably about fifty people either full or part time in the Erie area.
And the sportsmen fishermen say the gill nets are bad because they indis criminately kill fish, ail types of fish, including the sporting fish that of course attract a lot of people to our fine lake and to our area. And a lot of tourism to our area as well.
The commercial fisherman say that that 9 is not true. The gili nets can be used responsibly and are indeed necessary for their businesses to survive economically. And they are ready to present you with a body of evidence to show how the industry has been decimated in Ohio and New York as a result of their gill net ban.
And they say also from an ecological standpoint it can be conceded that the gill nets are doing the job in keeping the balance and ratio of different species of fish in tact. Because there are some fish, in particular white fish, that are literally, the populations are growing out of control in Lake Erie and they do threaten an imbalance in the ecology there.
And as a result of this you probably have seen news reports on this. There have been some public discussions. And last Thursday we had a program and scheduled to be on the program last Thursday was Ralph Corvagiia, the President of the Save-Our-Native Species of Lake Erie, commonly known as the Sons 10 01' Lake Erie, representing the sports fisherman. And representing the commercial fish industry we were very pleased to have with us joining us in the studio to discuss this very important issue, John O'Brien who works for Munch F i sh .
Now the day before Thursday's broad cast was to air, Mr. Corvagiia backed out. Mr. O'Brien showed up anyway and proceeded to present his side of the bill and his side of the issue. And we had quite a lively discussion.
When this subject was first brought to my attention in the news and in talking it over with David Bellmando ( ph ) our news director, I really had no opinion either way. I'm not a sportsmen fisherman though I do play one on TV. And I do like fish and I eat fish, so therefore I must benefit from the commercial fish industry, because I certainly don't catch it myself.
But I really had no opinion on this until I was allowed to examine both sides of the issue. And I wasn't sure how the 11 debate was going to go or how the program was going to go. And I thought this could be something that no one was interested in and we'd devote about twenty minutes of
Thursday's show to it and then we'd be off and running to other subjects. But low and behold the phone banks were full for the entire hours that Mr. O'Brien was here and on into the next hour as well. Mr. O'Brien stayed with us and then finally he had to go. And the final hour of the program on Thursday the phone calls continued on this very subject as well. So it appears there is a lot of interest in this issue.
And as per usual as it became more and more apparent to me that I think House Bill 1800 banning the use of gill nets is not in the best interest of our area right now, it could be very detrimental to fifty jobs.
Now fifty jobs may not sound like a whole lot of jobs, but given the state of 12 Erie's economy and the employment figures that are coming out every month here, fifty jobs is a substantial number of jobs. And we've got to try and do everything that we can within reason to hold onto every single job that we do have in the Erie area until the economy shows some sort of turnaround.
In spite of George Bush's claiming that there is a recovery going on, I don't see it and certainly we haven't seen a whole lot of indicators that the recovery is taking place in the Erie area .
Plus I found the arguments by the sports fishermen to be species. I don't see a shortage of successful sport fishing going on on the Lakes. And I can say that not just from the Erie area but where I lived in the Ohio area I was brought almost daily in contact with fisherman, both amateur and also those who operate the charter businesses, and I never heard any complaints about commercial fishermen taking away all the fish. Not to mention 13 the fact that we have the huge Canadian industry not too far away on the other side of the lake, an industry that's probably bigger than ours.
Definitely bigger than ours in the Erie area. Possibly bigger than the entire United States Coast Line of Lake Erie, who use gill nets extensively fishing out of the same Lake. So I just didn't really see the big problem here. I recognize, of course, that should an armada of commercial fisheries invade Lake Erie indiscriminately tossing gill nets hither and yon, certainly there's the room for ecological damage. But that is not the case. That is not the reality of the situation.
And so the discussion unfolded and as it began to unfold more and more, I found myself more in agreement with the commercial fisheries that this legislation is not necessary. And I would urge Itaio Cappabianca and Ken Kruszewski and Karl Boyes and Thomas SoriLnenti all to vote no on House Bill 14 1800.
But the conversation continues of course with sports fishermen caiiing in. And as per usual when people are incapable of defeating the human logic, reason or fact, they resort to saying you don't know what you're talking about. You haven't been around here long enough. Or you've never done this. You should go out on one of these and see what really it's all about. So I said okay, hopefully I'll get the opportunity to because it appears there are stories being told on both sides of the issue, claims being made and the only way to see the truth is to actually go out and experience it for yourself.
So last night John O'Brien called this program unsolicited just during an open phone line session, once again urging you to contact him, particularly Ken Kruszewski because he's one of the big movers and shakers behind House Bill 1800, even Itaio Cappabianca's name is also on the Bill as well, urging you to talk to Ken Kruszewski and see 15 where he stands now, now that some of the opposing viewpoints of the Bill have been brought forth.
And during the phone conversation I said "When are we going to go out?" He said well we're leaving at 5:00 a.m. tomorrow. Well it's time to put up or shut up as they say. So I scanned the weather forecast quickly. Hey, I'm no dummy. And it looked like today was supposed to be a pretty nice day and had a good chance of being a nice day, and I figured if I am going to go out and do this I should probably try and do it on a nice day, or at least the nicer days that we have left. So sure enough I arose quite early this morning, headed on down to the Joanne-M, which is the ship used by Munch fish, and we went out on the Lake.
And we were out there all morning and on into the afternoon. And when I say "we" were fishing, I was doing nothing. But the crew members, five in all on the Joanne-M, were going about their business of gill net fishing. 16
I was going about my business of getting sick, because I did get sea sick out there. And it wasn't that bad. I'd hate to see it when it is bad I guess because these guys are ail just walking around like it's no big thing and I'm going whoa, mercy me. But it was a very fascinating experience. The first thing, the first obvious observation to anyone who ever goes out on these is these guys work hard. This is not any sort of pleasure cruise on the Great Lakes, even though the weather was cooperative.
These men are out there for a purpose and they do set about it. It is a physical task. It is a demanding task. And one that I found to be fascinating to watch in between getting sick.
And here's what happened basically, I got to see what gill nets look like and I got to see the results of what they are capable of doing. And they had approximately thirty gill nets out there in different areas in the Lake. They all weren't in one place. Basically they were spread out over three 17 different areas.
And the total take best as could be figured as the fish were brought in was the crew - and see I almost said we. but remember I was getting sick - the crew, the men who were doing the fishing brought in about 1100 white fish. And I'm talking big ones. Beauties. Fantastic looking fish.
Now these are the fish of course that they set out to catch. This is right now during this part of the season where their bread and butter comes from is through this particular species of fish, and the take was quite successful. But obviously the concern is by the sports fishermen, and probably by environmentalists and animal rights people, and whoever else you want to throw in, is what about the sports fish, the ones that are allegedly being indiscriminately killed by these gill nets?
We had 1100 white fish. The total intake of sport fish was, what would technically be a sports fish, one that would upset the sports fishermen if they were indeed 18 killed, three trout.
These trout were living as were ail the fish that I saw brought on board. And I'm not .just talking about just barely, you know, gills just kind of going, I mean hopping and flopping and jumping. If these fish weren't alive then they were possessed by Satan, because these were just a hopping and flopping all over the place. And the vast majority, if not all of the fish appeared to me to be alive when brought on board.
The three trout that were brought on board were also very much alive and they were
in fact returned to the Lake and swam away, for all intents and purposes from my observation, from my eye, unharmed.
There were also some pike that were caught as well but they were allowed to keep those. And some pike were kept as I understand it. But for the most part when you consider these nets are just out there and as the sports fishermen contend, they indis criminately catch what's ever in there. And that in itself is a misnomer because the men who do this for a living, and women because 19 there's some women involved in the business as well, the women who do this for a living too, men and women who do this for a living, they know how to place the nets to get the most of the type of catch that they want to get.
And when you look at what they do out there, the fact that they only have so much time, they only have certain days in which to catch their fish in order to make a profit, they don't want to waste a whole lot of time catching fish that they're not going to be able to use. And so through experience and research they are able to determine where best to place their nets to get what they're looking for. And not waste time, effort and certainly net space getting a bunch of fish that they can't keep.
And it was obvious that's what happened. They got approximately 1100 white fish, their bread and butter. And the kind of fish that people would react in horror if they were caught, and which they're not allowed to keep, the sports fish per se, three trout, unharmed, returned to the Lake. Again, I don't 20 see the problem.
The other contention that was made by Ken Kruszewski in one of the newspaper write- ups pertaining to this piece of legislation was that the fish are brought up dead. We don't know how long they've been dead. People could be getting bad fish. Getting sick and so forth. And once again the point being is that practically every fish, if not every fish, to me looked to be very much alive as they were brought on board.
I also did not see as some callers contended on last Thursday's program, fish carcasses floating around outside of the Joanne-M at any time.
What I saw were a bunch of healthy fish soon on their way to their maker, but brought on board kicking and screaming unknowingly, but hey, that's fishing. And then they proceeded to extract them from the nets .
So, again, from what I saw, and this was not a planned trip. Like I said, they had no idea I was coming with them today. There's no way they could have 21 orchestrated this whole adventure this morning.
From what I saw the gill nets do not do the damage that is maintained by their detractors. And I see no reason given the size of the commercial fishing industry in Pennsylvania for House Bill No. 1800. I have been there. I have seen it. I know about what I'm talking now. And so those of you that would like to contend otherwise certainly may, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me now that I've actually seen these in action.
And it was quite an eye opening experience when you think about it. When you hear it described as to how a gill net operates it seems logical they're going to catch everything. There should be lobsters in there and, you know, old shoes and things like that. No, pretty much all that's in there were the white fish, the Munch fish that the men aboard Joanne-M set out to catch.
The other thing that is noticeable though, which they certainly have no control over, which should be cause for concern - it 2 2
is already cause for a lot of people - is zebra muscles. Good golly! Incredible amounts of zebra muscles being brought up in these nets.
It's unbelievable how these things are able to reproduce and attach. It's just phenomenal the amounts of muscles that are able to suddenly materialize out of no where. It's scary. The zebra muscles are scary. There's a potential horror movie territory in the zebra muscle problem here. I fully expect Hollywood to explore it somewhere down the road.
So that was my adventure today." (Conclusion of audio tape.) MR. O'BRIEN: Gentlemen, like we said, that was non-rehearsed. It's right from the news media. It sort of answers a lot of the questions. Again, as we go on with this Bill 490 keep in kind there's a part of history. These Captains here represent over 150 years of gill net fishing on Lake Erie passed on from father to son, from father to son to father.
These two gentlemen have their sons working with them. Jerry and Mr. Munch's sons are 23 not quite old enough, but every time they get a chance they're there. Should House Biii 490 be passed this tradition will be broken.
Again, thank you very much. CHAIRMAN FEE: Sir, could you explain to the members the difference if the gill nets are banned and you go to a trap net? Or that will be part of your presentation? MR. O'BRIEN: This will come out through our presentation.
CHAIRMAN FEE: Okay. Thank you. Would you explain to the members the difference between a gill net and a trap net?
MR. O'BRIEN: We will be getting into that here shortly.
CHAIRMAN FEE: Why don't you answer the question? MR. MUNCH: Well that's what we've got on our agenda coming up here, trap nets next.
What we want to do here, we have a picture here. Okay. Each one should have a picture or one in their folder of the trap nets themselves.
What we're going to show here real shortly with the picture, the dock here to the 24 right above that net you will see and note that there are dead fish floating there in the water.
Vie went over in Sandusky, and this is in Ohio that this is the type of gear that they're using over there now.
These fish were very small that they were getting. They are limited to a certain size. So what they weren't able to keep they proceeded to put back into the water. As you can see there is a mortality rate here with using the trap nets. What we want to do now is I'll hand it back over to John, which he'll go through here on video tape, which we have operations and also pictures of the trap nets themselves, of that type of gear, and John will handle that part right now.
MR. O'BRIEN: I'm going to fast forward through most of this as we explain. You heard most of it but first I want to bring out the fact that the fish are alive when they come in the boat. We don't kill fish. Trap nets do have a mortality and trap nets do kill.
(Showing of video tape with narration:)
Also like Mr. Munch said, we were there. We trap netted in Ohio. I went down in 25 New York, I trap netted in New York. So we also know what we're talking about.
Here's what most people don't realize here, that's what we call milking a fish. Commercial fisherman, when we're out there during the spawning season of the perch, they say that we don't do anything for the Lake. What we do the eggs are attached to the nets and we take the eggs, put them in a bucket and milk them. And we turn some of these milked eggs over to the sons to raise them in the fish hatchery, and the rest of them we turn loose in the bay and around the bay area .
We sort of like to take credit for all those small perches you catch through the Lake and the Bay. We sort of like to take credi-t for that for our spawning. So we do so something for the Lake also.
Once these are caught in the net - you can see the fish are alive here in the boat - we take them by a hook. We pull the good fish through the net, the perch and the white fish we catch, with the hook and put them in the basket.
The sports fish, we do pretty much the same thing. Take them by the under lip, pull them 26 through with the hook and put them overboard so we can release them. And as you see here some of the fish coming up on the nets, they're not hung by the gills until dead. They are alive as they come in. You can see them moving as they come in.
There we are as we came in. Officer Bowser, most of you recognize him. He inspects our fish every day, almost weekly.
At this time Jerry Mathers is here. And Captain Ray George was there.
We set up a program of reporting walleye because at this time we were catching walleye, reporting where we were catching them and the number of fish we were catching so they had an accurate weekly report besides the daily and monthly report we sent in to the State. So we do work with the Fish Commission at times.
Here again, it's not too clear, but this is the Fish Commission came out to the Fish House, Hunch's Fish House. They checked the scales of the fish that we caught for age. They weigh them for size. They get a tremendous background on their spawning and their age and their sizes through the fish at the Fish House in 21 one day. It saves a lot of time traveling all the way around the Lake to get different checks from different things.
Here with the eight boats they can get fish samples from anywhere across the Lake. It saves them a tremendous amount of time. These are called trap nets in Dunkirk, New York. I can't find a track on here. Anyways, that was in Dunkirk, New York, it was one of the trap nets. I can't find the tracking on this machine to clear this up, but we were in New York and we did pull trap nets so I know what I'm talking about.
I'll try to show the size of these if we can.
Here we are meeting with the sportsmen. Its said that we don't communicate with them. Its been very difficult over the past few years to communicate with the sports organizations. Finally we did call a meeting, sort of forced ourselves on them. Showed them the difference in the trap net and the gill net.
Here we are in Sandusky, Ohio, trap netting. Again, we have a picture and Mr. Munch will show you the picture. We went down and we 28 pulled trap nets in Sandusky so we know what we're doing and we know what we're talking about.
The same day that we were down there pulling these trap nets, this is some of the equipment. Notice the boats are wide open, very dangerous. Here's the trap nets coming up. Like you, Mr. Fee, I've got to have two knees replaced so working on one of these trap boats would be heck with my new knees.
CHAIRMAN FEE: You've got to spend a little more time in your saloon.
MR. O'BRIEN: What we're doing here, here are the fish being killed. You can see the dead fish and you can see them in the nets. You can see the seagulls after the dead fish.
The same day we were there there happened to be trouble between the sportsmen and the trap net fishermen in Ohio. So we had a newspaper man aboard from the Sandusky Newspaper, which is a photo there, which will show the dead fish and the giliing fish.
There's the traps going back. Now the trap net ranges anywhere from twenty-five to forty-two feet. Extremely wide. 1200 foot lead.
I'm trying to get the seagulls in here Z 9 eating the dead fish.
It's a whole different kind of boat. A whole different type of fish and none of the equipment is adjustable on here.
I'll fast forward this because you can see the fish in the net. Here we go. Here's where they make trap nets. Trap nets can be built for around $10,000. That's the cost of having them delivered in Erie. You need thirty some trap nets to make a living.
Some people say they can get them cheaper. I haven't heard of it and I haven't seen it.
Like I say, we were down there. We seen them being made. We watched them being made. We seen them and we fished off of them. And like we said, if you're using the excuse that gill nets kill too many fish, trap nets do more so than do gill nets.
We only have one more feature on here. This is all how they build the trap nets. The layout of the land. The new docking spaces and everything that you have to have to go into trap nets is extremely costly. 30
That's Mr. Cook from Sandusky, Ohio.
As you heard on that tape by Barry Dean Steinhagen, white fish now is our primary source of fish, besides the perch. But this time of the season we catch white fish. White fish are a bottom feeder. They cannot be caught with hook and line and they're out there in just tremendous amounts.
So that's pretty much our tape. CHAIRMAN FEE: John, we've only got forty-five minutes.
MR. O'BRIEN: Okay. Here's the trout being released off the nets. You can see them in the water. You can see them swimming away.
Thank you very much. (Conclusion of video tape.) MR. MUNCH: Okay. At this time Bob Minor is going to go over some charts here that are in your folders, and figures.
MR. MINOR: Okay. On the right-hand side of your folder there you'll see a comparison of Pennsylvania Perch Production 1955 to 1960. And this is from the Great Lakes Fisheries Commission and the PA Fishing Boat Commission Statistics. And this chart shows why we as a body 31 will not accept trap nets as an alternative. It's very clear.
Trap net gear, you can read down '55 to '56. Then you compare it to the gill net gear. Then the last year that the trap nets went out they caught 34,000 pounds of perch with twelve licenses as opposed to 744,000 pounds with the gill nets. Then in 1961, 1,000,000, 2,000,000, etcetera. The traps just will not catch fish in Erie .
And then this other chart, the graph, you'll see that very clearly. The New York fishermen put traps in in 1986 and the chart there shows you in 1985 what they caught. Then in 1986 it dropped from the 100,000 pounds right down to 5,000 pounds. Clearly out of business.
The last letter that was addressed to you, Mr. Fee, by my wife, three times in that letter you'll see where she says we're out of business.
We are out of business if you transfer us to traps. It's that simple. There's no it's, and's or but's.
Okay. One other item. The news 32 release by the PA Fish and Boats Commission, August 3rd.
"Three state agencies responsible for monitoring streams and protecting public health"....
CHAIRMAN FEE: Where is this? MR. MINOR: News release in your folder. "Three state agencies responsible for monitoring streams and protecting public health issued a fish consumption advisory today warning anglers not to eat lake trout from Lake Erie." Don't eat them.
Okay. I just talked to Erie County Health Department two days ago and there is an advisory in draft right now on the steelheads that you got there and lake trout and walleye. And what's holding it up now is that the five Governors on the Great Lakes are getting together with an advisory, and he told me that that advisory would be no more, he doubted whether it would be a pound a month on your trout steelheads. For the walleyes a little less PCB's. And they're allowing two parts per million. And that's coming out here very shortly. 33
In other words the sports fish in our lake, Lake Erie, is not going to be anymore than a halt' a pound to a pound a month to eat for your health.
And another thing, that is that's when you trim off the beiiy. You go down the backbone and get the fat. And you spend three or four different procedures. And the white fish, apparently from what I could get - now remember this is all in draft form now and isn't exact yet - but the white fish hasn't got too much PCB's in it. And that's the fish that are out there right now. They're not planted, they're a natural fish and that's the fish that we're catching and we're shipping them to New York.
And one other economic thing that I'd like to talk about, then I'm going to shut up because I'm too old to fish. Those fish that go to New York, bear this in mind, you people will be aware of this, that multiplies seven times into the economy. The figure there is a million and a half that's wrote in the letters here that you'll read for the record, but it should be around 4.5 million because the PA Boats Fish Commission 34 caught 600,000 pounds in the last three years.
And Jerry, how many fish did you catch in August, white fish?
MR. MATHERS: This year?
MR. MINOR: Yeah.
MR. MATHERS: Ah, 90,000 pounds. MR. MINOR: He caught 90,000 pounds alone. That's multiplied seven times, dock price a dollar, nine times seven, well, you figure it out. On economic value the sport dollar is just a redistribution. From whatever counties you're from parts of it go up there. That's money that is made in the plants for the small businesses and it's a redistribution, what they call disposable income. The Department of Commerce says that money would be spent anyway and it actually adds very little to the state. It adds a lot of economic value to Erie, Pennsylvania, but it has very little economic value to the state, our Commonwealth .
That's all I got to say. In other words as I see it, but I'm no economist, it put more to the economics of 35 Pennsylvania in one month than aii your charter boats put together. Because that money would have been spent anyway.
MR. MUNCH: Okay. Now this particular article here, "Sportsmen Oppose Gill Net Ban." John, do you want to make a statement on that. MR. O'BRIEN: Illinois the sportsmen came out in favor of gill nets. They opposed the gill net ban. I'm .just going to read the last paragraph on the bottom.
''The Illinois sportsmen's coalition has expressed the thoughts of many other anglers and even some charter boat operators in other parts of the Great Lakes. Many of this silent majority realize that the propaganda against gill nets is malicious and false but they are drowned out by the fanatics and those with a personal axe to grind."
This is in Illinois and this is true also in Erie. MR. MUNCH: All right. We're going to close out here now with this last article here which was put out by the Pennsylvania Fish Commission, and it's "Lake Erie Gill Net Fishery." 36 And they are saying that the two fisheries can co exist .
If you get a chance you can read the whole article and see what it's more about. But in their last sentence there they do say that the two fisheries can co-exist.
I believe we should open for any questions that you may have, whoever you want to direct to. We'll answer the best we can on any questions that you have.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN FEE: Mr. Phillips.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Thank you. I just have a couple of questions. I've been trying to figure out why we're here. If the trap nets kill more fish than the gill nets why are the sportsmen fishermen opposed to gill nets?
MR. O'BRIEN: That's pretty much explained by this last paragraph that I just read.
You heard Barry Dean Steinhagen state that there is just a few people that are opposed to the gill nets. They have a personal axe to grind.
I can tell you who those people are. 37 You all known them very well. There's about eight of them in Erie and I can teii you their names.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Yes but why would they-- I don't understand if trap nets would affect them more than what gill nets would.
I'm trying to feel why it would be. This just don't make sense to me. MR. O'BRIEN: It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. MR. MINOR: May I answer that question please to my best ability with this letter that was addressed to Mr. Fee on September 5th. And CaryiAnn Minor writes in "Conclusion. Sports interests have provided the committee with selective information about fishing gear which they themselves know nothing of. Expecting Pennsylvania's fishermen to convert to trap nets is like expecting Pennsylvania's farmers to convert to a one-furrow plow.
In our opinion, even though we provide jobs, bring new money into the area and benefit the resource we are political fodder for an elite group who think they own Lake Erie. The fish populations of Pennsylvania belong to ail her citizens. If you ban gill nets you are illegally 38 setting the resource aside for their exclusive use . "
A simple answer is they know we'll be out of business. Anybody that looks at these charts, anybody that knows about the trap people in New York; they are out of business. Three of them. You can't drop from 100,000 pounds, or a ninety-five percent drop and expect to not be out of business. Where would you be if you took a ninety-five percent cut in your salary?
MR. SCHAU: Another thing, in the late fifties the Barcelona Fish Company, which is a very successful gill net operation had nine, ten gill net boats and also converted an old boat into trap nets and they fished for three years. He couldn't make out.
We fished right alongside of him and we run a ton a day, ten to 1500 a day. He ran 150 to 200.
The only way he made a living is by selling black bass to the State of Pennsylvania. Which we didn't catch any black bass but he was getting them with trap nets.
And he's a very experienced trap net operator too because he had an operation in 39 Ashtabula, Ohio, that was trap nets and also one in Port Huron, Ohio, so he didn't make a fool of himself because he wasn't an experienced trap net operator.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: What was that man's name? MR. SCHAU: Floyd Jakeway, Barcelona Fi sh Company. MR. MATHERS: Another thing I might add is that the underlying thing is that the fisherman want to go out and like John said, there's only a few that are behind us. The general populace, the fishermen, do not even know that this is going on.
For instance I've gone to meetings and I belong to the Sons of Lake Erie, and they don't mention anything about what we do out there. They just say that they're doing something, they have a committee. But the actual populace, the 2000 people, do not know what we're doing. And some of them are against it that they're even doing that for one thing.
Another thing is that they feel that Ohio went to this and they regulate them pretty good in Ohio. You have to remember that in Ohio 40 those guys that are trapping over there have been trapping for over thirty years before they were put out.
They handed down from father to father. The traps are handed right down. So once they went out in Ohio they were convinced over there, the Legislators, to if they get rid of the gill nets they'll make more money on walleye. That was the whole purpose. In reality they didn't make more money.
In '85 even the sportsmen over in Ohio were coming over here in Pennsylvania when these fish moved into the trench; if some of you know of that time.
So anyways they figured if they do what Ohio did or there's a precedence these few sportsmen that are out there and that are knocking on the doors down here, that they'll be able to get the majority of the fishing committee, if not all of us, out so that they can go from one end of the lake in Erie without getting a plug caught in a net .
And if they do trap then they'll be limited just to a few and then they'll regulate them just like they do in New York. For instance 41 there's no walleye. They're not allowed any walleye over there. They just move them out three miles from the shore.
So these things are underlying things that this is their purpose, is that if they can cut down what they have here. But they don't realize that this will hurt the lake if we go out of business, because we're like farmers. We weed the garden. We're allowed a very little bit of the fruit that we get. But without weeding that garden you have an abundance and you have an overabundance of a species, which is causing a decline in the perch right now. We watch this all the time. We see it. We live it every day. This is our livelihood.
So we have this problem going on and they don't realize this. All they realize, they have in their mind let's convert them over, maybe we can get some of the force out. They say they don't want to get rid of you but in reality that's what will happen.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: What would happen if the white fish overpopulate? And I don't see why they would want to do that if the white fish overpopulate you'll have less perch. 422
MR. MATHERS: White fish don't affect the perch. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: But there's a certain amount of feed I would presume.
MR. MATHERS: This is true, they do eat the smaller shrimp and the perch like them too. But you the Fish Commission has - and this is through the sportsmen - have put a ban on like Erie bass. And I have bass coming up spitting up perch. I have white perch eating perch. I have perch eating perch.
When you have a problem like that there shouldn't be a ban because they're eating each other. There's no food. The white fish don't affect it. Of course your going to catch other fish. There's a fish called the bourbon, an eel pouch, that eats whole fish. I have measured thirteen and a half inch perch this year; took a picture of it.
They eat them and they're eating these perch and that's why there's a decline. But there's nobody taking these fish out. If we were to stop we wouldn't be able to take these fish out. The sportsmen are not going to be able to take these fish out. 43 Even with perch fishing, you get an amount of sheephead and suckers and shad. They're all eating. They all have to be taken out. The sportsmen aren't going to take it out. They're going to target on pike or the steeihead or whatever. Mainly pike right now. So without this provision, and we have a good fishery there, it's not hurting the fishery and there's testimonies about how it wouldn't hurt the fishery.
So I mean why even make the change. We have the equipment. Where like in Ohio they have already had the equipment. The people that did change were already doing that and they were doing both at the time. And once the gill net went out they said well, let's just continue trap netting and that's how it went.
But here we have no facilities for any of that stuff and you would have to build facilities as you've seen in there. different boats would have to be changed. You'd have to have docking spaces. You need land to make these nets, to lay them out to tar them to do that certain thing. So it's a very expensive operation. And they're also affected certain times when they're leading and they catch a 44 quantity of fish at one time, and if you get a good wind and that they'll kill fish. That's why we brought up about fish dying in the trap net.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Another question. One of the main sports fish taken is the walleye, is that right?
MR. MATHERS: Right.
MR. SCHAU: Correction. The walleye is not just a sport fish, it's a commercial fish too. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: I understand. But if you catch it you can keep it.
MR. SCHAU: Yes, sir. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Which we understand. How many pounds of walleye did you take over the last year? Do you have a record of that?
MR. MATHERS: I have a record here that I took a few years back. It goes from 1982 to 1990. Okay. It's not in your packet here and I can give you a copy of it. That I got from my own information a few years back when this all started.
Anyhow, we have been allotted 24,000 pounds every year since this has started. From the period from 1990, or from 1982 to 1990, for 45 that particular year 1982 I can give you the figure of 6,333. I'll just give you some small figures.
The highest we ever got was eighty- five and that's when these pike moved into the thing. We weren't even targeted on them because we were mainly catching them incidental, it was 14,000. The rest of the time it was ten, nine, five, eleven. Over a period of ten years we have been allotted 216,000. We caught 96,000. Actually we're owed 119,000 pounds, but we don't recover that.
Now the last year they did change it to 16,000 pounds. Okay. Now we caught that quota. There's X amount of fish. 1990-1991 the Fish Commission has put out that it was the biggest spawn of pike ever.
We caught 16,000 pounds. We caught our quota. That's true. And went over another 8000 .
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: You'll keep whatever you get.
MR. MATHERS: Right. Which still came to 24,000 so actually we never really caught 46 anymore or less than we've been getting for the last ten years.
MR. MUNCH: May I add to that Jerry, we are under a season for the walleye. Okay. We're allowed to keep what they call the incidental. Where our season for our walleye does not start till September, but it does go against our quota. So if we exceed our quota then we have a closed season on walleye, which means that we cannot target for the walleye if we hit our quota.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: You can't target but if you catch —
MR. MUNCH: Incidentals we are allowed to keep. The reason that law was made that way was because it was a waste to throw them away.
MR. MATHERS: And for instance what has been happening here unusually for us while there is such a stock, normally they go up in the air these fish. Mr. Fee knows that. And for a period of like June was a good month and we were catching them on the bottom while we were fishing for pike. But right after June it's like somebody closed the door, now we're getting three pike, two pike.
In other words we were getting two or 300 you're only getting one or two because they 47 moved out of the area. They've gone up in the air and they go beyond the nets.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: I don't know what you get for fish. I mean I don't want to know the price but which fish do you get the most money for? Why the walleye when you go to sell it to the trade? MR. MATHERS: Weil the walleye, really we don't consider it a market because there is such a small quota we don't really talk about it.
MR. MUNCH: They've been running basically about the same pricewise. It don't vary that much, nickels and dimes.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: I have a few other questions but there are other members here and I don't want to take all the time. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN FEE: Representative Baker.
REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: I'm curious as to what the total economic impact of your collective businesses has upon the economy. It is a multi-million dollar operation collectively speaking?
MR. MINOR: Let me speak to that.
REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Okay. MR. Minor: 600,000 pounds, and I'm 48 not talking about fish here, Jerry's one boat this year would have an economic value according to the Department of Commerce, that's the Federal Commerce, seven times the boat price. The sports is out as I explained before. It's just a redistribution of money. If they didn't spend it on a boat out there out of Erie, people come from Pittsburgh they may be buying a motorcycle or going to a bowling alley. But that's disposable income is what they call it, the Department of Commerce.
But in the interest of time to answer your question, 4.5 million on white fish only the last three years, and that's done by 600,000 pounds multiplied by seven.
And the reason they get the seven, sometimes they figure out, these economists, with a three figure. But because of this station imports about seventy to eighty percent of the fish, a lot of them from Canada. I know that right across the Lake from where you were fishing, and I don't want to get off of the track on your question but this should be interesting to you, right across the Lake from where you're fishing since 195U, that's forty years, there's about 49 fifty crawlers, 150 feet long - you'll probably hear this from the sportsmen that they're going to kill them from fishing those smelts.
Olmstead Fisheries out of Wheatly had smelts in every state in the lower forty-eight. In other words the forty-eight states in a lot of years. They're still trawling for smelts. Right now they're sending them to Korea. That's multiplied by seven because it's an export fish. New money is what the Department of Commerce calls it. The sports dollar is old money, disposable income.
REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Would it be basically not plausible at all to convert to trap fishing? You've indicated already that you would have to fold up and you people would be out of bus iness.
MR. MINOR: No, I didn't say that. I said that we as a body will not accept traps. It's in one of the letters there.
In one of your letters you offered proposals I think and my wife said we are satisfied with status quo. We have been there. We are history. We're entitled to it. Gill nets.
Sportsmen has prospered tremendously 50 while we've been out there. This is nothing new. This has been going on for twelve years when Andrezeski, State Senator Andrezeski got in. The sportsmen could not put up with us gill netters because their fish was going to be gone.
I talked to two downriggers the other day, both of them said they got their limit by killing these walleye out there. One more interesting fact. The Pennsylvania Fish Boat Commission proposed to take away from us the walleye in 1981. And we told them as a body that if you take the walleye away from us, you have put us out of business. Well, I don't see that. Every place where we go we'll be catching walleyes according to the sportsmen.
Well they proposed it anyway. So we referred them to HR, I don't know the figure or the number, but it was used against Oklahoma which says you can't legally take away a part of a natural resource and give it to another. So they realized that, so that article backed them off. So that's why we can fish walleye. It was taken away from us, gone, back in 1981. And you as a lawyer should know very well about that.
And this is not unique. There's a lot 51 of precedence that sat in the fishery departments because Erie is not unique, the Sportsmen of Erie, it's all over. Commercial fishermen are under attack all the time.
REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: I just have one more question, Chairman Fee. I guess I'm having the same problem that my colleague Representative Phillips has, is that if in fact gill nets, as you had indicated earlier, kills fewer fish, then what are we doing here and what scientific data and research do you have to substantiate that statement?
What can you bring to us to prove that that is in fact correct and that it's nothing more than a propaganda statement by the fishermen?
MR. O'BRIEN: We have the video tape. We've got the pictures in the paper that they kill fish .
I don't know what we're doing here. I don't know why anybody would have an axe to grind against fifty jobs and a period of history. I have no idea.
MR. MINOR: I don't want to be answering these questions, but let me answer that quest ion. 52 If you won't believe that tape then I
find it very hard that you'll believe anything. He is a talk show host. His very livelihood depends on the truth. There was five men on the
Munch boat.
Five people were on that boat. He's like Donahue, if he tells one lie or is perceived to tell a lie he's out of business. He's not only a talk show host he gives the news in Cleveland. And if it gets out and you can laugh at that but that's the thing about it.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: The only reason we're laughing, we've got one up in our particular area that constantly lies. So you're not telling me about commentators.
MR. MINOR: In other words-- MR. MATHERS: Let me answer this.
MR. MINOR: Let me answer this then
I'll quit. I won't say another word.
Is there anybody in here— CHAIRMAN FEE: Mr. Minor-- MR. MINOR: That doesn't believe talk shows?
CHAIRMAN FEE: Mr. Minor, this is my meeting, all right? 53
MR. MINOR: Okay. CHAIRMAN FEE: Mr. Baker, will you continue.
REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Thank you Chairman Fee.
With ail due respect I don't question the voracity of your media person or your commentator, but we having and wanting to be very objective need to see what studies or data or research you may have done that can substantiate your position. Now a media commentator does not provide—
MR. MINOR: How about the Fish and Boat Commission, they've said it for twelve years.
REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Weil they have not taken a position one way or the other.
MR. MINOR: Oh yes, they took a position for a long time.
REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: No they have not. We have documentation here that says that they have not taken one position over another.
MR. MINOR: Weil how about their research?
REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Well that's what 54 I would like to see.
MR. MINOR: They've got it. MR. MATHERS: What I was going to say Mr. Baker is that that's it right there. They have a boat called the Perka. They have done research. They have nets just like all of us here actually. They have nets from one inch to six inches, things that we can't even use.
And any time you could go on that boat and set your nets right next to me and you can pull those nets and I'll tell you exactly where I'm at, anybody in this room, and you can see every day what we go through every day with every fish that we catch.
I have some articles here and I'll give you one of these. For instance there's one, Illinois Commercial gill net study shows low incidental salmon catch. Okay, this is one study here out of Illinois where it shows the low catch.
Now with the gill nets and the trap nets, and I guess that's what you're getting at, is that you have a choice here between two evils I guess is what it comes down to. You know I mean there's casualties in every business and they both kill fish. Now your trap nets when they aren't 55 fishing will also kill fish.
The contention is that they don't kiii fish, they're ail alive. We can dip them out and they're ail alive. But it we don't know how to set those nets and if you pull them too fast they'll kill fish. If you don't set them right and it collapses you'll kill fish. So that's one of the problems you're going to have right off the bat, is none of us know how to do all that. And if you have bad weather you can't go out and they have to stay there. They stay there - the question he asked about what's the difference between trap nets and gill nets, or Mr. Fee did, that's the difference. You can take your net out, like I'm out now, I'm not sitting there but if I have trap nets my trap nets would be sitting there right now and I'll go visit them tomorrow. But my gill nets are out and I can move them discriminateiy where I want to put them. That's the difference. But between the two and overall the trap nets will kill more than the other.
Or do you want to make that change, convert everybody over if that was the case, then 56 keep it the way it is since the actual numbers are insignificant?
REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: To me there doesn't seem to be any compelling documentation that one is better than the other. There's a statement here that was handed to me quoting the Fish Commission as saying there is no question that few if any fish survive incidental catches by gill nets.
What is your response to that statement? MR. MATHERS: Few survive; what kind are they? A bigger fish will survive. For instance the white fish will survive. A large trout will survive. A pike will survive and the bass will survive. A smaller fish like a perch or any of the other smaller ones will not survive if they're pulled and you were to release it. But of course that's what you're fishing for. You're fishing for that particular fish.
MR. SCHAU: I beg your pardon sir, was that study made by the Pennsylvania Fish Commission?
REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: It's a statement by the Pennsylvania Fish Commission. 57
MR. SCHAU: Weil see their boat doesn't go out until 9:30, ten o'clock before they pull their nets every day. We pull ours by daylight.
MR. MATHERS: There's different time periods and you're out every day. You have to take the actual study. They're the ones that are actually doing the study and they do it indiscriminately.
REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: I'm going to pass and let my other colleagues ask some questions. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN FEE: Representative Lynch.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
What I'm going to say or ask here, don't perceive that as me having taken a side or not, but you guys aren't doing a real good job of presenting your case in my opinion. Okay. That video was worthless. It didn't tell me anything. And the radio spot, I read somewhere in some of your correspondence here where this guy on the radio, you know, it's his opinion. That's all it was .
He indicated somewhere in his message that he came unannounced. That you guys didn't 58 know he was going out. Yet at the same time somewhere in your correspondence you indicated that you do not allow, you know, the opponents on your boats. Okay. Anyway, I just want to point this out.
I want to talk a little bit about this sheet here. Who do I address the question to, any one? I have a few questions about this and maybe I missed this somewhere in the conversation. Do we have current year figures for this? We're looking at the fifties, do we have something that's in the eighties?
MB. MINOR: Sir, they went out of business. They went out of business in (6U. There was no need for anymore figures after '60.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Okay. You guys use trap nets and gill nets?
MR. O'BRIEN: Not since 1957. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: You haven't used trap nets at all?
MR. O'BRIEN: No.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: In Ohio? MR. O'BRIEN: In Ohio they use them. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Do you use gill 59 nets in Ohio?
MR. O'BRIEN: No. There's a ban on xt.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: When were they banned in Ohio?
MR. O'BRIEN: Ten years ago. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Do you have the information up until that point or did you not use trap nets prior to that either? MR. O'BRIEN: No, the last time we used trap nets as is shown here is I960. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: You haven't used them since?
O'BRIEN: No. They were non functional at that time and not used.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: I heard somebody say that the trap nets cost $10,000 each?
MR. O'BRIEN: That's a delivered figure. You can make a trap net for around $5000 if you have your own land, your own place, and you know how to build them. If you buy them you're talking $10,000. $7500, $10,000.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: And you need thirty of them to make a living? MR. O'BRIEN: Correct. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: How about gill 60 nets? How much do they cost and how many do you need?
MR. O'BRIEN: Do any of you gentlemen want to answer that?
MR. MATHERS: Well you're only allowed so much in the water. MR. MUNCH: We're limited by the Pennsylvania Fish Commission to how many we're allowed according to each license. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: What's a gill net cost? A trap net costs $10,000, what's a gill net cost?
MR. MUNCH: One particular gill net, depending how long, roughly around--
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: On the average.
MR. MUNCH: A hundred foot net about $37 .
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: $37 a foot?
MR. MUNCH: Nets range anywhere from 100 to 200 feet in length. Okay. As you don't see it because you're — we are actually in thousands of feet because they get tied together in a series. Okay.
MR. O'BRIEN: 3700 feet, $3,700. This is a continuous replacement factor. In other 61 words we don't buy $3000 worth of nets today.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: How many hundred foot segments do you need to make a living?
MR. O'BRIEN: We use- MR. MATHERS: It depends on the season. It depends on the time. In the spring you put more out. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Well over the course of a year on the average?
MR. O'BRIEN: 37,000 feet. MR. MATHERS: Yes, you're allowed 37,000 feet in the water.
MR. MUNCH: However presently some license holders aren't allowed anymore than 24,000 feet?
MR. MATHERS: No, it's fifteen. Four miles .
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: During the right seasons you're allowed 37,000 feet? MR. MATHERS: For our size boats you're allowed five miles and that should be- about 37,000. For smaller boats three miles which would be about 15,000 feet.
And these nets are replaced. They 6 2 become ineffective every time you use them. They get ripped out from the fish and when you set them. So the inside is constantly replaced or sewed in throughout the summer time.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Who's giving you the problem, the walleye fishermen, the steelhead fishermen, the salmon fisherman? All of them? REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: We only see a few people that are giving us problems.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Well somebody's giving you a lot of problems. Sierra Club? Who is it?
MR. O'BRIEN: The Sons headed by Mr. Corvagiia, the Fish Commissioner now.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: What type of fishermen are we talking about? Are they walleye fishermen? Steelhead fishermen?
MR. MATHERS: The Walleye. MR. O'BRIEN: Yeah, they're walleye fishermen now.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: They're basically walleye fishermen?
MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Let me ask a 63 stupid question. I don't know. And I know this thing could be an expense because of change in the size of the giii net. I mean if you change, you know, the holes in the gill net.
MR. MATHERS: Well you're only allowed one size for that size. When you're fishing for white fish you're only allowed— REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: What if you reduced the size? MR. MATHERS: Well it wouldn't be worse actually. It was smaller and they made them bigger.
Actually what happened like say the perch, they increased the size, what, half a dozen years ago from two and three quarters. So the fish that we're catching are like six, seven years old perch, the bigger perch. Weil perch only live to six, seven years old. So actually the ones we're getting are the ones that are ready to die anyway. That's what's given to us. The smaller ones go through.
Now in your big mesh, which is the bigger fish, we're fishing for the white fish, that's four and a half inch. That's the standard size. And you can only go so high, thirty-six 64 mesh, which actual height is twelve feet. And we use twenty-eight mesh, we go ten feet.
So ten feet off the bottom, and they're only about this thin, of downrigger or anybody else and your walleye are up here, we're down here, if they wanted to fish they go right over the top. Well of course some of them get mad because they get a lure caught in the net and maybe that might upset them. But they also if they learn how to do it, like this year I've been calling people and telling them anybody fishing around the nets tell them where I'm at.
We don't mind working with them if they're willing to talk to us and we tell them so. And we tell them if you did lose a lure or you lost a cannonball we'll take it over there to the fish place and give it to them. Put your name on it if you're going to fish around the nets.
And I've even gone to sports and talked to them about how to fish around the net to get along in that way. But your fishing is above that where a trap net is 35 feet high. It's thirty feet wide. And then you put four of them together, which you're going to make a good mile just on the four trap nets. So they're going to 65 sit there like a box all the time. They're right in the prime fishing. That's going to be a problem. In a couple years we'll be right back where we are again.
MR. O'BRIEN: Again, ten years ago in Ohio and New York they banned the use of gill nets. Since then the commercial production went down to almost nothing. Sports production went down . Your forefathers had the foresight not to ban them. They increased the size of the net like you said, went .just a little further outside. As a result Erie, Pennsylvania, is the best sport fishing there is in Lake Erie. Mr. Tom Fee will attest to that. They have the best bass fishing in the world in Erie, Pennsylvania. Why change?
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: That's ail the questions I have.
MR. MINOR: Did I make myself clear on the health advisory on walleye? That will at the most be one pound a month.
In other words a walleye downrigger will go out, get his allotment one day, and he has as far as the health advisory is concerned a year's supply of walleye. 66
CHAIRMAN FEE: Representative Jarolin.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Number one, you said fifty people, didn't you?
MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, sir. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: The last time I was with you up in Erie you told me twenty-four people. How come it jumped to fifty all of a sudden? MR. O'BRIEN: I always said between thirty and fifty.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: John, you told me twenty-four people. Now out of those people that are employed how many of them are part time?
MR. MATHERS: It doesn't make any difference how many of them are part time.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Okay. How many of them got other jobs?
MR. O'BRIEN: I don't know how many have other jobs.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Do they depend on the gill netting for a livelihood? Is that their sole source of income? 67
MR. SCHAU: Between thirty and fifty.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Thirty and fifty?
MR. SCHAU; Yeah. Closer to fifty, sir. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Didn't you, John, also teii me the fact that you've only got really two or three active commercial fishermen right now? MR. O'BRIEN: Right now. They have their licenses suspended, yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: How many total do we have commercial fishermen?
MR. O'BRIEN: We have eight fishing licenses. Two suspended.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Two are suspended for what reason?
MR. O'BRIEN: I don't know.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Yes you do.
MR. O'BRIEN: Falsifying records. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: What was the falsification on the records, John?
MR. O'BRIEN: You'll have to ask one of the men.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: John, you 68 showed me.
MR. MUNCH: What are you asking about the falsification?
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: I'm saying that, number one, you're telling us about the perch population declining, right? MR. O'BRIEN: No, we're not talking about that. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Yes you did. Is it not a true fact that they exceeded their perch allocation by thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds, something like 400,000 pounds?
MR. MUNCH: No, no. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Well, okay. I can get the actual true facts from the Pennsylvania Fish Commission.
MR. MATHERS: It's like 200,000 pounds. MR. MUNCH: That's not true. They have no idea. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: That's not true?
MR. MUNCH: No. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Well then why were they suspended? 69 MR. MUNCH: They could not prove that it was 400,000.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Why did they suspend the licenses?
MR. MUNCH: The licenses were suspended because they were falsified records. They proved they were falsified records. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: What kind of a falsification was in there? MR. MUNCH: With the money determined that was passed out.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: We'll go into trap netting. You're telling me that trap nets kill fish.
Isn't it true that the reason that trap nets kill the fish is because they're in the water entirely too long a period of time? Six weeks some of them, five weeks, four weeks?
MR. O'BRIEN: Not necessarily.
MR. MUNCH: No. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Isn't that what Mr. Johnson told us up there, that in Ohio-- MR. MUNCH: Mr. Johnson is not an experienced trap netter.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: You told me 70 he was in that business.
MR. MUNCH: Back in 1987. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Okay. Weil you're referring here to 1987.
MR. MUNCH: We got all our information from over here in Ohio State. We have a video and pictures and what not to show you of what has actually happened. MR. O'BRIEN: We showed you the video from the Sandusky paper of the fish floating in the water. He pulls his traps on a weekly basis. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Weekly basis?
MR. O'BRIEN: Weekly basis. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: That's not what I found out.
MR. MUNCH: So how often does he pull them?
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Three to five weeks .
MR. MUNCH: Three to five weeks. MR. SCHAU: If he waited five weeks he wouldn't be able to pull those nets. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Why? MR. SCHAU: There'd be so much muscles and slag in them you couldn't lift them. 71
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: We saw a little tape over there pertaining to a reporter being on a boat and he claimed he saw three trout on the boat that were caught. What time of year was that?
MR. SCHAU: This time of year. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: This time of year. Where were the nets located? MR. SCHAU: It was north of Erie Harbor. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: North of the Erie Harbor?
MR. SCHAU: Umhum. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: What year was this, last year or the year before?
MR. MUNCH: 1991. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: It had to be the year before like you're saying for the simple reason that he was referring to House Bill 1800.
At that particular time the walleyes weren't even in the eastern basin at that time. I was up there. MR. SCHAU: They're not in the Erie Basin where we're fishing now.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: But they're 72 right out in Presque Isle, straight out. I ran across your nets. We're not catching walleye.
MR. MATHERS: What do the walleye have to do with it?
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Well number one the reason for the walleye is the fact that you're telling me they're contaminated with PCB's. Then why did you people take 16,000 pounds, which is your allocation?
MR. MINOR: That's a proposal now.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: No, no, no, that's wasn't a proposal. John, you told me this yourself.
MR. MINOR: Excuse me. It's a proposal in the legislature now. It's not out yet. It's in draft form by the five Governors. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: That's this.
MR. MINOR: No. That's pertaining to the lake trout only. The walleye hasn't had a health warning out yet.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: It hasn't?
MR. MINOR: No. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: I beg to differ with you. How many thousand pounds of walleyes were you allotted, John? 73
MR. O'BRIEN: This year we were
allotted 16,000 pounds for the season. We caught them on incidental catches. We got the fish while we were looking for the white fish.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: How many pounds of incidental walleyes did you take, John? How many pounds of incidental walleyes did you take? MR. O'BRIEN: There was sixteen, what have we got, twenty-two all together. MR. MATHERS: You're allowed 16,000 pounds, which were caught. Then the following month during the time we had the meeting, I don't • know if it was recorded, there was another 8000 that was incidental. 24,000 pounds.
Let me say this. For the last ten years we've had 24,000 pounds. Why this year did it go to 16,000?
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: I don't know. I guess it's house regulations.
MR. MATHERS: Here it is. I've got all these statistics. We're allowed 24,000 pounds. Out of two, four, six, nine years we only caught 96,000. So the Fish Commission owes us 119,000 pounds. Who is going to pay that? We 74 never caught the 24,000 pounds.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: It's like I said, in previous years they were caught in that Eastern Basin.
MR. MATHERS: Weil the reason they increased it is because they knew that there was going to be a big walleye population this year and they decreased it to 16,000 pounds.
Now they allow us to catch the incidentals without target. We can't target them. We're not catching any walleye now.
Ironically enough we got 224,000 pounds. Hasn't that been the same for the last ten years, 24,000 pounds?
Nobody's targeting the walleye and that seems to be the most thing on everybody's mind .
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: In my mind it's the perch.
MR. MATHERS: Okay. Let me tell you something about the perch here. MR. MINOR: Representative, please. I don't think you heard my answer. I'll say it again. There has been no advisory, health advisory on walleye at this point. It is in draft 75 form with the five Governors of the Great Lakes to come up with a health warning on walleye.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Well the Governors are going to come up with it. MR. MINOR: The Governors in each of their state, a health warning as to the amount of PCBs that cause cancer and they're going to figure out the percentage. It may go down to .5 like Canada. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: How about the EPA report, did you take that into consideration or didn't you see it? MR. MINOR: No, I don't know about the EPA report.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: The Environmental Protection Agency came out with their report.
MR. MINOR: Well we have three here, the Department of Health in Erie, the DER and the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission. MR. O'BRIEN: Talking about the perch, we will not come anywhere near getting our perch quota this year. Perch are in dire trouble.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Why? MR. O'BRIEN: With the zebra muscles, 76 the introduction of the white perch and the loss of the whole lower food chain in that lake. Perch are in dire trouble. And this is where the problem is. It's not with the gill netters out there. The whole lower food chain is out of that lake. There is not minnows. There is no smelts. there is no— The perch are going. There's no fresh water shrimp and there is not a clam left in that lake. This is where the problem is, it's not the gill netters.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Yeah but the perch that I filleted up there, when I cleaned their guts out they had zebra muscles in their guts .
MR. SCHAU: They've got nothing else to eat.
MR. MATHERS: The thing we talked about is the bass, like I described earlier, they're coming up—
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: They're wrong on that.
MR. MATHERS: They are wrong on that.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: They usually go down ten inches. MR. MATHERS: They usually go down 77 eight inches and take the bass out of there. They are fighting with the perch and when you have an abundance you're going to lose out on something else .
The bass are great but nobody's even fishing for them. Everybody's particular about the walleye. They've introduced the salmon or the lake trout in order to maybe increase revenue as far as the trout stamp. They went out and started planting them in there. They're fighting right along with the walleye. If you're worried about the walleye you've got to make a choice on those too. Quit putting them in the water. Quit putting the lake trout in the water and the Fish Commission's doing that .
Now you're going to lose the pike, because I get pike there as thin as my finger. They have no food.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Oh, Jerry.
MR. MATHERS: Look, I see them all the time and I've had them come into the boat thin. Now something is wrong.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Christ, you 78 know, I had walleyes twenty-three inches, six and a half pounds.
MR. MATHERS: I understand that.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: There wasn't one thin walleye in our boxes that we caught.
MR. MATHERS: During that time you get them, you get a variety of walleye. I had some with four tags. How many did you get with tags? REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: None. MR. MATHERS: That's right. And you have walleye that are thin. There's something wrong. They're also feeding, they have to have food. The bass are eaten alive, you're having a problem with that. These are problems.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: I fished the lake at night for walleyes and I get maybe two thin walleyes out of sixty. So I'm not going to go and say there's something wrong with the food then on account of those two thin ones. They may be sick. I don't know. But the majority, I would estimate that ninety-five percent of the walleyes in there are bloated with all kinds of fish.
MR. MATHERS: This is true. But they're also fighting with the lake trout which nobody's taking out because nobody wants them. 79 And now you have an advisory on them. And as far as the bass, nobody's fishing for them and you're losing out on the perch then.
Even the white perch, when they start eating each other cannibalism you have a problem. There's definitely a problem. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Well don't forget with all of the perch catches that are going on in that lake for the past several years-- MR. MATHERS: Nobody's been fishing for them.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: And the over- amount of money taken out, or over-amount allocated taken out of there, that did not have no affect on a good population.
MR. MATHERS: Let me address that. I want to address that right now because every meeting I've ever been to you always ask that question.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Yes. MR. MATHERS: You want to, you know, put a cloud over the fishing community.
Now you're a lawyer, aren't you?
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Who me?
MR. MATHERS: Yes. 80
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Heil no, I'm a plumber.
MR. MATHERS: Well you know what a mitigating circumstance is, don't youV
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Yes.
MR. MATHERS: Okay. Do you know the mitigating circumstances behind this? REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Yes. I've been following them now for four years.
MR. MATHERS: Okay. Weil I have statistics as far as fisheries, you know, allocated perch-wise for the past ten years.
Now what has happened is that licenses were given out, one of the things is licenses were given out, there were four, that was it. No increase in fish. Okay.
Now your season has been cut short. Also, during the amount they were accused of taking about 200,000 pounds. Now if you think well that was taken extra. All the statistics I have here, what we caught, what was recorded, what was taken out we didn't catch.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Are those your statistics?
MR. MATHERS: No, Pennsylvania Fish 81
Commission.
What was caught, what we were aliowed- REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: May we have a copy?
MR. MATHERS: Certainly. I'll make one in the back as soon as we're done. And what was allocated, short about 230,000 pounds. So nothing more or less has been taken out of the Lake. What they did was wrong, I agree. I'm not condoning that. The point is that they were forced into doing that.
And there's something else that you might not know. But Mr. Kenyon, what happens every year is that Mr. Kenyon and a guy from Ohio and New York and Pennsylvania, called the Great Lake Task Force, and two from Ontario, get together and describe how fish is allotted for each area in Lake Erie by units.
For instance they're in their proceedings and I have it right here, we were allotted for a harvest number, and that was 1990, I think it was c90, 333,000 pounds. Do you know how much the commercial fishermen had of that? 180,000 pounds. What happened to the other 82 153,000 pounds?
Under oath Mr. Kenyon said during these proceedings that it goes to the sportsmen. They have a quota. Did you know that?
Do you know what; they're not scrutinized. They don't have to put in a monthly report. And when they catch that quota of perch they're not stopped. How come? Why do they have a quota? If that amount of fish was given to the commercial harvest these people wouldn't have had to steal anything.
Okay. If they're going to have a quota and we're ail in there to save the perch let's say, then let's hold that quota. They don't even know they have a quota. The sportsman fishing for perch does not know he has a quota. But Mr. Kenyon over the past ten years has been giving half the fish to them, half to us. We're held accountable. We have to put in reports. We stop. They catch way over their quota.
That particular year there's 40,000 licensed in Erie and Erie County to give you an idea. Now if you multiply that figure of 153,000 that comes out to about a hundred perch per 1icense. 83
Now they say well I'm allowed fifty a day. But they were catching perch then too. So in other words they caught beyond their fish and yet nobody stopped them. Now that amount of fish should not be allocated to them and if it is why aren't they held accountable for it? If we have to stop and we want to save those perch, let's stop them. You know in the last two years when we had quotas, do you know how much their harvest or their quota was? About 20,000 pounds. That comes to one perch per license in Erie and Erie County. Not counting the kids or not counting the adults or anybody that comes in to fish in Lake Erie.
This man has been giving the fish away each year unknown to the sportsmen. Now if that isn't taking fish and being illegal about it and nobody is held accountable for it.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Well number one, I'm going to tell you right now I've been seeing all of those people fishing up there for the perch in the past couple of years and I haven't seen anybody getting their limits, believe me. I haven't seen any of them getting, their 1imits . 84 MR. MATHERS: I know some of them-- REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Even the shore fishermen.
MR. MATHERS: There's one guy I know in Lawrence Park, they call him the Fish Nazi. He got 2000 pounds last year. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: If you're allowed fifty fish per trip out there, that's okay. In New York the fishermen are allowed to sell their catches.
MR. MATHERS: I'm saying according to this, according to these things that have been going on, those people are only allowed one perch. I mean we're trying to preserve the perch, consequently we're not fishing for perch. You can't depend on perch even when there is perch and these fisherman will tell you that. But now that the white fish have come back and we have created that market over again like they did thirty years ago and we're bringing money into Pennsylvania, why not preserve it instead of trying to destroy it.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: The perch that you catch are in the local restaurants up there? 85
MR. MATHERS: They can't make it out of Wesieyvilie.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Is it a reason for it? Are they both kinds of fish, they're the white perch and the yellow perch?
I know they were sold as lake perch. I've eaten white perch. That's the most terrible tasting fish there is. They should be smoked. And I was thinking of John O'Brien selling them for perch.
MR. MATHERS: They are good smoked though .
CHAIRMAN FEE: This man who is called the Nazi fish nut, does he have a market for these 200 pounds?
MR. MATHERS: No. CHAIRMAN FEE: Does he sell them to the restaurants himself? MR. MATHERS: This particular guy was just a fisherman. We went to a dinner last year and they said this guy fishes. And I said well how many did you catch, you know, perch. Well he said about 2000 perch, just single perch.
CHAIRMAN FEE: He didn't eat that all himself. I'm asking you did he have a market for 86 them?
MR. MATHERS: I don't know. And there's another thing, I do have a couple names of places that fish do end up in clubs that aren't supposed to be there.
There are people that hang down at the dock that constantly fish and we know that fish are being sold that way.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Well they have to have a receipt for them.
MR. MATHERS: This is true. If I was to tell, and I have talked to Bowser about this, and tell where they go they could investigate and they would have to show that they had receipts. That's right.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: You know, I asked John I'd say at least a half a dozen times to take me out on a boat with him. And I'm still waiting to go out on that boat with him. And I was out there the one day and your boat was picking nets up and it wasn't at daylight either. And I wanted to come over and I'll tell you, I got the high sign, get the hell out. That was one time and it was out at Walnut Creek.
Why do you pull the nets up before 87 daylight?
MR. O'BRIEN: I haven't been on a boat this year.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Not you. I didn't say it was you. MR. O'BRIEN: I don't own a boat, so I can't take you out.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: I wouldn't doubt if it was you. I tried to contact you by radio because you were telling me to fish twenty feet off the bottom and I would never touch your nets .
MR. MATHERS: That's right. I was telling people on Channel Six.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: That's the channel I jumped on and I said this is Stanley Jarolin, Legislator, I'd like to come over.
MR. MATHERS: Well what I was doing there, I put it on, there's like six, seven numbers that are fishermen numbers. Six is on it. Usually I sit on six, but the other numbers like the fish I'l or 68, I let it run on there. And then I hear them talking because I've heard them talk about the nets, or somebody's got something in the nets. I might be on my way home. 88
I can hear them say well who knows about the nets or I've got my ball caught. So I'll get on the phone and I'll tell them this is what you do. And I've got the ball and I've taken it over to them. Or I say, well does anybody know about the nets? Especially on the weekend. So you might have been trying to get me while this thing was flashing. Not that I wasn't going to answer you; of course I would have answered you.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: I must have called twenty times.
MR. MATHERS: But, you know, you can come right over the side of the boat. As long as you stay a certain distance you can sit right there and watch me.
MR. MINOR: Representative, do you know how many citations the sportsmen had in 1992?
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Violations?
MR. MINOR: Yes. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Oh yes, quite a few. Let me tell you, they're out there. There's two fishermen out in a boat and they're fishing with ten poles. That's totally wrong and they get nailed for that. That's being greedy.
MR. MATHERS: I have one that says 89 that they saw one guy go in Walnut Creek at eight o'clock in the morning, and then he sees him out at Northeast going out at twelve saying I'm going out for perch. Now you know what they're looking for .
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Oh, yeah. MR. MATHERS; Well now when pike were in big in 1985 a guy was out there in a bathtub, they were all out there, with five kids. The kids were beating each other up and he was fishing. Now he came home with thirty pike. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: They do the same thing with trout.
MR. MATHERS: That's the kind of stuff you've got because you have greed. We're not concerned about greed. We're not after that.
MR. MINOR: Here I thought you were biased and you're not.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: No, I'm not. I'm against gill nets because I've seen the destruction that they can do.
I've been involved with the Fish Commission where I've seen them pull up the trap nets, and I'll tell you I think out of maybe forty, fifty or a hundred fish that we pulled up 90 after they were in only for a couple of hours we lose maybe one fish. And that's because it's pounding the hell out of himself.
But the reason the people are losing the fish in the trap nets is the fact that they're leaving them in the Goddang water entirely too long .
Now don't tell me that if you set your nets, what is it 37,000 feet of nets, if you set those nets - let's say a thousand feet.
MR. MATHERS: Yes. We don't set them this time of year. We can't handle them in the summer, only in the spring. Certain times.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Let's say a thousand feet.
MR. MATHERS: Okay. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: And if they're down there two days and the fish come into that net within an hour or- two after you set that net, that fish is going to be alive when you pull it up?
MR. MATHERS: Yes. Absolutely. MR. SCHAU: How many gill boats have you been on, sir?
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: I haven't, 91 but I've seen the gill nets work.
MR. SCHAU: Are you a commercial fisherman?
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: I've seen the gill nets work. I've been trying to get out on a boat. MR. MATHERS: You have a fish boat that you can fish right next to me. MR. SCHAU: You've got your own boat.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: I got 375 miles to drive to go up there. I can get up there four or five times a year.
MR. MATHERS: Well you'd have to go up there if you want on one of the boats.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: I tried to make an appointment with John, he wouldn't set nothing up for me.
MR. SCHAU: He doesn't have a boat. MR. MINOR: Let me make this point one more time to you distinguished representatives. New York State has proven, has showed it, they have fished since 1988, '86, there was lots of perch in the lake. We caught all kinds of them. They cannot make their traps work. And they have got an experienced trap netter down there by the 92 name of Red .Russell, and he's working on nets.
He got a big pension from the Ford Motor Company and he can't make it work. So my point right here is that we can't make a living with traps. It's impossible.
CHAIRMAN FEE: For the record note the arrival of Representative Michlovic.
Mr. Smith. REPRESENTATIVE SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have a brief question and I am not a lawyer. When you're fishing with the gill nets how long a period of time is it between the time that you put them out and the time that you bring them in?
MR. O'BRIEN: Well barring weather twenty-four hours or less. Possibly forty-eight hours or less .
REPRESENTATIVE SMITH: Forty-eight hours maximum?
MR. O'BRIEN: Max. MR. MUNCH: Our law reads that we're allowed to fish them for twenty-four hours. Okay. That's according to our law with the Pennsylvania Fish Commission. They're allowed to be fished 93 twenty-four hours.
However, we are not allowed to lift them one hour or a half hour before sunrise and one and a half hours after sunset.
MR. MATHERS: Or set them. MR. MUNCH: Yes. We're not allowed to touch them nets between that period of time overnight. But any other time there that's the way the law reads, twenty-four hours. MR. MATHERS: Now you know the water warms up at times. I mean you have to know these things do that, of course, so you set the nets a little bit later in the morning and you pick them up as early as you can in the morning.
As it cools down you can leave them in a little bit longer and it's not going to hurt them. And in spring when the water is cold you can leave them out there a week and those fish are just as fresh as when they went in there. They're just as lively.
We don't do that because the fish are dormant anyways. They move around slow, so that's why they give you a lot of amount of net because you're only catching a few here and there.
Now as it starts warming up you start 94 cutting back on your nets and then you're down to maybe one mile instead of five miles in the summer time. And then in the fall you just go back to that kind of same format.
REPRESENTATIVE SMITH: Would you expect the same regulations if it would become trap nets? Because you said something about the trap nets in Ohio being out for much longer periods. MR. MATHERS: Well a trap net, it's my understanding you put them out as early as you possibly can in the spring, as soon as the ice thaws, and you bring them in as late as you can in the fall.
In the summer time like Mr. Jarolin thinks that, you know, you leave them out there too long. In the summer time you've got to actually tend them by a couple days because what happens is the fish that do get in there turn around and go back out according to the trap netters that I know.
REPRESENTATIVE SMITH: That's pretty hard to believe.
MR. MATHERS: Well, you know, any one of them can come out. When they come in it's so 95 dark, and they go on light, when the get into the box they can actually turn around and go right back out the tunnel, but they don't because it looks dark back there. But in the summer time it's a little bit different, they find their way out. So you almost have to tend them within a couple days.
Now in the fall you don't tend them as much, or the spring. You might have a few groups and maybe go visit them every two or three days, unless you get into some heavy fishing. And of course you're tending as many as you can each day and taking the fish out. You take every one of them out that you can.
Now you talk about mortality rate. If you're concerned about white fish and there's pike in there, you got 10,000 pounds of white fish and you've got 1000 pounds of pike, and now if we go to trap nets and you're dipping out these white fish and you kill a pike and they're floating on top of the water, then what are we going to say? Well, hey, them pike were alive. You gave us trap nets, they're supposed to be all alive; guess what, they died when we tried to get to our white fish. So what happens in that scenario? 96
REPRESENTATIVE SMITH: That is a problem in Ohio?
MR. MATHERS: It's a problem because they're going after the fish they're allowed and if there's something killed, that's what's going to happen. And that's why you're going to lose the fish. MR. MUNCH: Presently in Ohio right now the trouble they've been having with the trap nets along lines of the perch, their law is reading that they have to be eight and a half inch perch. So if they end up with approximately about a ton of perch in that pot, they have to be sorted out. If not they're going to get busted by the DNR when they end up hitting shore. And this is one of the major problems.
This particular fellow here has had his trap nets out up there in Ohio State and this happened, because they're randomly going through them by eye. As soon as they were hitting shore they would go through and check most of them.
By the time he was getting the smaller ones sorted from them and back into the water, then that's when they were bellying up.
MR. MATHERS: And the difference with 97 the gill net is you've got a bigger net. The smaller ones are going to go through and that's why you're losing them like that, if you're going
to be filtering them through like that.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Are there commercial fishermen in Ontario? MR. MATHERS: There is commercial fishermen on the New York side in Ontario. They're gill nets. That's where it's a political thing. They banned the side on the Erie side, but on the other side of New York and Ontario there is still gill nets. Same state. REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Illegally?
MR. MATHERS: No, no, legally.
REPRESENTATIVE SMITH: That's all my questions Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN FEE: Mr. Tigue. REPRESENTATIVE TIGUE: You just mentioned about Ontario on the New York side. What about the other Great Lake states, Michigan, Wisconsin?
MR. MATHERS: Actually in some of the things here they have increased the license. They have taken surveys. There's a little packet here 98 and I'll give you what I have here. I should have made some more up. This was for another thing here. But there are some things that they've written about how they found that the incidental catch in gill nets weren't significant or insignificant. And that they thought that maybe they were killing the salmon there but it was something else, it was food being gone.
So what's happening is they have increased the gill nets in Lake Illinois and they have increased the license from like five to six. And they've allotted them more perch.
So there's been an increase in the gill nets. They're finding out that these things are working that way.
REPRESENTATIVE TIGUE: Has there been any efforts in Ohio or New York to reinstitute gill nets? MR. MATHERS: New York's been fighting for the last six years.
REPRESENTATIVE TIGUE: I mean whatever their equivalent to our Fish Commissions have they looked at it, or is it the fishermen who just want to go back to the gill nets, gill net fishing? Did someone other than them? 99
MR. MATHERS: Weil my understanding is that they want to go back fishing for white fish because they're sitting there and you've got deeper water out there, and it's better for that, blah, blah, blah. But they're still being held back and the ones that do have trap nets are even trying to take the pike away from them on that end. That's my understanding.
Over in Ohio they've disbanded so much that they haven't made an attempt. I mean they were paid pretty good money and everybody is.
That's one thing about it if this happens you lose the knowledge and everybody is disbanded. And who is going to come back and do this say well we're wrong in five years? Where are you going to get the gill nets? Where are you going to get the people to do it? You can't find this job in a book, you know. You just don't go read about it. It's something that you bring up through your livelihood, through your family, and it's something that goes in that way.
MR. O'BRIEN: Mr. Irwin out of Barcelona every year files a statement with the State of New York trying to get his gill nets back. He's the only one left and it's like going 100 against the wall.
REPRESENTATIVE TIGUE: Did New York or Ohio - anyone can answer this - their, again the equivalent of whatever our Fish Commission is - support banning of the gill nets or was that done legislatively?
MR. SCHAU: That was done legislatively and that was supported by the New York Fish Commission, the Conservation Board up there.
REPRESENTATIVE TIGUE: Is that right?
MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. MR. MINOR: I think that was done by the DNR.
REPRESENTATIVE TIGUE: It was done by regulation?
MR. MINOR: Yes. REPRESENTATIVE TIGUE: I'm getting a difference of opinion on that. Someone's saying no .
MR. O'BRIEN: I'm pretty sure Ohio had to be legislatively.
REPRESENTATIVE TIGUE: Ohio was legislatively done? Joel Green from the Pennsylvania Fish Commission is nodding his head. 101
MR. GREEN: It's my understanding in both New York and Ohio it was done by the Legislature.
REPRESENTATIVE TIGUE: Okay. Thank you .
CHAIRMAN FEE: Mr. Staback. REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Gentlemen, whomever, how long does the commercial fishing last up there? MR. SCHAU: The middle of March till the end of December. Till the weather gets so bad we can't fish.
MR. MATHERS: And that's not an every day figure. Like I say summer time you pretty well have to tend everything summer time. During the spring and that, you know, you're dictated weather. Of course we all are as fishermen. In the fall it's the same way. So as soon as you can get out when the ice breaks and as soon as the ice forms you have to stop.
REPRESENTATIVE TIGUE: I want to ask a question that Stanley Jarolin asked earlier. I didn't get the answer to that question.
There are fifty people employed in your industry. Of the fifty how many are employed 102 full time, that's year round, versus part time, seasonal guys that are working only for that six month period? And if they are all full time or part time, rather, do they have other full time jobs that they go back to?
MR. MUNCH: No. Most generally when they weren't working for us full time they would be laid off. But it would be under a seasonal job. The reason why it's a seasonal job, when they go to the unemployment that's what they file at their unemployment as seasonal, because they know they will be returning as soon as the ice breaks.
So for a period of January, February and March, or actually January and February, you know, dependent on what March was on the lake with the ice situation, that would be the period that they would be laid off.
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Yes but they qualify for unemployment compensation, right?
MR. SCHAU: No they don't. MR. MUNCH: Yes. MR. SCHAU: Not seasonal. They're no different than a cafeteria worker. 103
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Oh yes they are. It depends on what it is. I just had a case now where people worked at specific times and the people collected unemployment.
MR. MATHERS: Like a migrant worker. MR. O'BRIEN: Everybody is pretty much full time except myself. And everybody in the off season when they cut back they work in the fish house tying nets. As they cut back the season the other employees, fifty employees, go on unemployment. And if there is no unemployment they go on welfare. REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Answer me this. As an owner of a commercial operation how much can one earn in an average fishing season as the owner?
MR. O'BRIEN: I'm not an owner. REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: I'm curious because we're talking about the possibility of something you said, the gentleman on the end particularly, that if this legislation were to pass, we would literally be putting you out of business totally. That's basically what you're saying.
MR. MUNCH: Well just my son and I work
! 104 on our boat. We have a small boat. And we pay, and I was very much surprised about it, when the top 150,000 to 200,000 people had to pay thirty, what is it thirty-six percent interest or something, or tax, thirty-six percent on wages over. But that's getting away from your point.
We paid - last year we made about $25,000 each. But we have to pay fifteen and a half percent being a small business owner for Social Security, plus, it would be fifteen, maybe eighteen percent. So we get up to as much as them rich people paying tax. That's to Federal, State and Local tax. Around $10,000 each my son paid tax in 1988, '89 and last year I think we were down to about six or seven.
Does that answer your question?
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Well I'm not sure . CHAIRMAN FEE: You're an owner, aren't you?
MR. MUNCH: Yes. REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: My question is what does the average employee of these fifty make per hour?
MR. O'BRIEN: We're again working on 105 commission somewhere between $10,000 and $20,000, depending on the boat and the size of the catching season.
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Don't you have an hourly rate?
MR. SCHAU: No. You get a share of the fish. REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Let me rephrase that. Between ten and fifteen? MR. MATHERS: Yes. REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: In a good year they may go over fifteen?
MR. MATHERS: Actually what's being taken away it's almost embarrassing to tell you what you make. And we're fighting for something that most people wouldn't even want to get into this business. And because of what we go through, we do risk our life. We're out there in pretty bad weather just to continue getting fish.
For instance I made, to give you an idea, last year with the white fish I turned in $100,000. After my employees and deductions I made $12,000. That's all I made.
I paid my bills. I put it all into the business. That type of thing, as far as us 106 being rich, none of us are rich. There's none of us here that are millionaires.
Even the fish that's taken there's none of us here that have beautiful homes and that type of thing.
So to pay the employees and do something like that, and if you're a boat that's not successful, of course, certain guys won't want to fish on that boat. They want to go on a boat where you're catching fish where they're making more money.
That's how the crew looks at it. If this boat's making more money or the guy's only fishing so often, he's not going to fish on that boat. He's going to fish on a boat that's full packed. And the more fish you get the more money you make. But an average employee on the deck doesn't make that much. He might make $12,000 to $15,000, and if it's a good year maybe $20,000.
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: But to reiterate, you as an owner had $100,000 gross, took home only $12,000? MR. MATHERS: I had $12,000.
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: To live on for a year? 107
MR. MATHERS: That was paying all my deductions and everything and to live on. That's what I paid taxes on.
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Is that about the norm?
MR. MATHERS: That's because I put everything back in there. Weil I don't know. I mean everybody's responsible, they might not want to put money back in. I bought things to go into the business. I bought new nets. I bought new boxes . With these proceedings it's tough now because I need to work on the boat. With everything hanging overhead I can't invest any money. I can't buy anything. I don't know what's going to happen. I can't hire somebody else because I don't know if we're going to continue fishing. So you have that to look into. So I can't.
My two sons want to come on with me so I have to look at that, so that I can maybe make myself more efficient and be able to put them in as employees too, and that type of thing. But right now it's kind of stagnant.
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Okay. Well 108 we only have four active commercial guys now, is that correct?
MR. MATHERS: You mean on the water itself?
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Yes.
MR. MATHERS: Right now, ah REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: There were six, two were suspended. MR. MATHERS: There's one that didn't fish. There's actually five of us fishing. REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Are there any that you think do better than you?
MR. MATHERS: Absolutely. These two gentlemen when they start fishing they have a larger boat.
You're able to put out more. You.'re able to go let's say further up the lake where because of weather a smaller boat cannot go that far, so he's limited to a certain area.
In Erie you have probably 400 square miles of water surface. That would be like fifty miles per boat. That's a lot of water surface to cover. You couldn't really fish it out. Couldn't do i t .
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Let me get 109 away from that.
MR. MATHERS: Okay. REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: What species of fish can't you legally harvest in your gill net? MR. MATHERS: Lake trout. Salmon and bass. I guess any game fish. Well for instance like a northern pike that you would never see out in open water. A thing like a crappie you wouldn't see in open water. Other than that everything else. I mean you catch, you know, suckers, steeihead. There's the eel pouch, the link cod, excellent fish.
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: And you indicate then that the damage that you cause to game fish like the lake trout, the bass and salmon, is insignificant?
MR. MATHERS: Very insignificant. We see it every day. You know we're concerned about the water like farmers are. We're concerned about it too. We see the perch declining. We wonder why. Like I said, I think the bass affect these other fish.
We see sores on fish. We have the lamprey eels coming up with lake fish stuck to it. 110 We take them off.
We also clean out the lake with different stuff that's in there that's been thrown in like plastic and baby carriages. One guy even got a cow a bunch of years ago. Stuff like that goes into the lake, but as far as the catch and the insignificant part of it and the quantity of fish that are out there, it's quite insignificant.
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Okay. Now I'm from way up in the northeast. I'm not familiar with the term zebra muscle. What is that? And you've indicated before that there were large large quantifies in the water up there. What do you do with them when you catch them, when they come up in your net?
MR. MATHERS: Myself at times they have laid on the deck if they get stuck in the net that you don't get them ail out. See that's the difference between a gill net, you can take it out if it's going to be windy like this past week it got windy, we took them out. Where a trap net, now that's going to collect zebra muscles and render it ineffective. It's got to be cleaned.
So what happens is they roil down and Ill they're collecting on stones and they're making themselves into like baseballs.
What they do is they get caught in the net and of course we shake them out and they get caught on the deck. Now if they lay there they just die out and turn into just shells. The rest of them you dump them over. We try to let them die out a little bit before you dump them over. But one thing they are doing is they're filtering the water.
Now as far as fishermen it's a new problem for us when it is bad out there because it just renders the nets - it will roll the net right up and just close it right up. It won't fish at all .
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: My final question. Why are trout affected so much more by PCBs than white fish? Why is that?
MR. MATHERS: They're a very fatty fish and they're the top of the line of the fish out there.
They're very aggressive. They get, you know, maybe the size like this. And their bellies are real fat and that's where it's stored. Some of them are like twenty years old so they 112 have stored this, so if you get a big one you don't want to eat that. Now one about like this then you trim it down or something like Mr. Fee had. But your larger fish are going to store it if its been there long and they're eating other fish.
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: How large do white fish get?
MR. MATHERS: Well they'll get, I had one fourteen pounds last year. They're like this but nothing gigantic.
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: But you don't need to be concerned about a fourteen pound white fish with PCBs?
MR. MATHERS: Weil you don't see that all the time, plus they're only eating the shrimp where our trout is eating other fish, which are infected.
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: Okay. Thank you .
MR. MATHERS: You're welcome.
CHAIRMAN FEE: Mr. Staback, are you fini shed? REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: I'm finished. CHAIRMAN FEE: Mr. Michlovic. 113
REPRESENTATIVE MICHLOVIC: No thanks.
CHAIRMAN FEE: Mr. Lynch.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Munch.
MR. MUNCH: Yes. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Can I go on one of your boats? MR. MUNCH: When I go back next year, sure. I would have no problem. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: What about this year? Are you done fishing for the year? MR. MUNCH: I can't fish this year. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Who is fishing this year?
MR. MATHERS: I am. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Can I go out on one of your boats?
MR. MATHERS: Well I see no problem, but you have to go out every day for a month. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: No, I just want to go one time.
MR. MATHERS: I want to show you what it is like to go out every day for a month.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Well you know I 114 can't go out every day for a month.
If I go out with you for part of a day you're going to give me the most optimum performance anyway and I recognize that that's what you want to do, right?
MR. MATHERS: I wouldn't do that. I would take you out a normal day but then you have to consider the other days. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Can I go out on your boat for a day? MR. MATHERS: If you also sign--
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: A waiver saying if I get hurt?
MR. MATHERS; Yes. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: I would do that, sure.
MR. MATHERS: And what would be your purpose of going out on a boat?
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: I've never seen the gill nets. I mean I've seen gill nets that the Fish Commission has put in in the dams and so forth.
MR. MATHERS: Okay. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: But I've never seen a gill net in operation on a boat and I want 115 to see it.
MR. MATHERS: Okay. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: If you want to convince me, I mean I should think you would want to jump at the opportunity if you want to convince me that what you're doing is okay. MR. MATHERS: Well it's not that. Normally I'm all for it. It's all put as far as being secretive and everything else, but you also have to be objective about it. And as far as going out and seeing it you have to see it every day .
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: We have to trust each other.
MR. MATHERS: I do trust you that way. So that would be the thing.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: So is your answer yes?
MR. MATHERS: Yes. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Okay. Then I'll give you one of my cards. Where do you work out of, Erie?
MR. MATHERS: Erie, yes. REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: Okay. I live in Warren. 116
MR. MATHERS: Okay.
MR. O'BRIEN: Can I ask you a question. When you go out on a boat, say we had a bad day and we happen to catch a lot of sports fish and we don't get them all back in the water, what is your opinion? You're only there one day. You're going to crucify us and let the sportsmen multiply it twenty times over.
If we happen to take you out like we did with Barry, happen to take you out and we have a good day, you'll think we set you up. It's a consistency over and over.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: I recognize that if I'm out there for one day or part of a day then you're going to give me optimum performance because you're going to know where the school of fish are and you're going to stay away from them.
MR. O'BRIEN: We stay away from them anyway. We don't get paid for catching sports fish .
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: I'm saying you would most emphatically stay away from them on that day, wouldn't you?
MR. O'BRIEN: Then you wouldn't have a true picture. 117
REPRESENTATIVE LYNCH: You don't want me to come up?
MR. O'BRIEN: Oh, yes. Fine. No problem.
REPRESENTATIVE JAROLIN: Let me know when and I'll go with you. CHAIRMAN FEE: Mr. Staback. MR. O'BRIEN: Like they said, they called the boy down in Sandusky, he said it's fine to come. Don't bring a lunch, it will be a one way trip. That's what he thinks about the guys that put him out of business.
There's no problem. But like I say, to go out for one day is not a fair judgment.
MR. MINOR: The thing that I don't quite understand and I wish somebody would explain it to me, is why we're so concerned about fish that we can't eat and only the sportsmen to go for the twang of the fish. That's the lake trout I'm talking about, as opposed to what we were talking about Lake Erie white fish that has such a tremendous economic value to us. That's what I don't understand. Can you answer that question for me?
CHAIRMAN FEE: Let's get going here. 118
Mr. Staback.
REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: My question I guess would be directed to Mr. Mathers while he's here .
MR. MATHERS: Okay. REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: And what prompted it is the comment you just made to Representative Lynch, that for him to make an intelligent judgment on the gill net operation he would have to spend at least one month of fishing on the water with you. Yet earlier when we were listening to the comments of your radio announcer up there, he put a seal of approval on your operation after only one day on the water. Now how can that be?
MR. MATHERS: Okay. MR. O'BRIEN: Will Mr. Lynch do the same? REPRESENTATIVE STABACK: You just said that Mr. Lynch would have to spend at least one month on the water.
MR. O'BRIEN: He was there on a good day. It was almost a perfect day. If we knew that Mr. Lynch would do the same thing. We would like to have a perfect day but we don't always 119 have perfect days.
MR. MATHERS: No, the reason behind that and the reason behind the whole tape and the bottom line of that whole thing, it's not that he was there that day, is that the contention-wise is that all these fish are dead when they come up. This man went out that day and saw 1100 pounds of fish and they're ail alive. All he said was I saw these fish alive. Now there was three trout in there and they were all released, so he happened to be there for that.
What if the three trout were dead? Okay. Now maybe he comes the next day and he still sees live fish, now he sees three dead trout or maybe one out of the two dead. Maybe the next day there's nothing and maybe we got one bass and you release the bass.
All he was saying was the fact that these fish were all alive when they came up. Because everybody says when the fish hit the gill net they die, they get electrocuted. They're dead. He was trying to say that point.
As far as going out every day they're not dead every day either. We see that every day 12 0 and that's what we can show Mr. Lynch.
CHAIRMAN FEE: Any other questions from the panel?
(No further questions from Panel.)
CHAIRMAN FEE: I have just one question here or comment, whatever you want to call it. Its been asked of me by other members of the Committee would you fellows be in agreement to a grandfather clause added to this House bill? You have to understand there's no buyout with the grandfather clause. MR. SCHAU: Can you explain how a grandfather clause would help us?
CHAIRMAN FEE: Well it will take care of you five, or however many there is, that have a license now and the gills nets to be phased out at x number of when your license expires.
MR. HAFNER: No, when he would die or quit the business.
MR. MATHERS: Well that would not include your kids?
CHAIRMAN FEE: No. This is just the person.
MS. HAFNER: It would be the current 121 license holder, when he dies or quits the business then that license ceases to exist.
MR. MATHERS: The clause would have to be gone over as far as, you know, because we're concerned about now if somebody wants to get out that would be their business. CHAIRMAN FEE: Well we're looking for a way out too you understand. We're between a rock and hard place.
MR. MATHERS: Yes.
MR. O'BRIEN: There would have to be some reading in there, wording that should an untimely death take him, his wife has no livelihood. So there has to be some sort of agreement that, you know, ail five of us can get killed on our way home tonight and there won't be any gill nets.
CHAIRMAN FEE: Just keep it in the back of your mind and we'll come back to this.
MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, we could definitely work that out.
CHAIRMAN FEE: Okay. I want to thank you all for coming down. And I want to thank the Committee for taking time to come to our meeting.
We appreciate the input and I'm sure 122 we'll be deliberating this for a number of hours to come in the future. So we'll probably be getting ahold of you for additional information, or if anything may come up that you think would be helpful and we should have it just send it to my office and I'll see the rest of the members get it .
MR. O'BRIEN: One closing statement. Again, fifty jobs, the best fishing on the lake, eight boats, why change?
CHAIRMAN FEE: Meeting is adjourned. (At 4:05 p.m. the hearing was concluded.) 123
CERTIFICATION
I hereby certify that the evidence taken by me of the within proceedings is accurately indicated on my notes and that this is a true and correct transcript of same.
JanVce L. Glenn, Cmirt Reporter