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Dáil Éireann Vol. 979 Tuesday, No.5 19 February 2019 DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DÁIL ÉIREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Insert Date Here 19/02/2019A00100Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders’ Questions 552 19/02/2019J01200An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business 565 19/02/2019P00700Health Service Executive (Governance) Bill 2018 [Seanad]: Instruction to Committee 573 19/02/2019P01000Gnó na Dála - Business of Dáil 573 19/02/2019P02100Ceisteanna - Questions 574 19/02/2019P02200Taoiseach’s Meetings and Engagements 574 19/02/2019R00500Northern Ireland ���������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������579 19/02/2019S00800Departmental Operations 583 19/02/2019U02000Ábhair Shaincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Matters 588 19/02/2019U02200Ceisteanna (Atógáil) - Questions (Resumed) 588 19/02/2019U02300Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions 589 19/02/2019U02400EU Directives 589 19/02/2019V00400JobPath Programme 590 19/02/2019W00100Community Employment Schemes Review ���������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������593 19/02/2019W02100Illness Benefit Payments 597 19/02/2019X02300Community Employment Schemes Supervisors ��������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������599 19/02/2019Y00400Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions 601 19/02/2019Y00500Community Employment Schemes Review ���������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������601 19/02/2019Y01300Illness Benefit Payments 603 19/02/2019Z00500Public Services Card 604 19/02/2019AA00200JobPath Programme 607 19/02/2019BB03850Social Welfare Rates 612 19/02/2019DD01450Job Initiatives 616 19/02/2019DD02200Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate 618 19/02/2019DD02250Protected Disclosures 618 19/02/2019EE00600Childcare Costs 620 19/02/2019GG00200National Broadband Plan Implementation 623 19/02/2019HH00250Planning Issues 626 19/02/2019JJ00400European Defence Agency Project: Motion ���������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������629 19/02/2019OO02700Companies (Amendment) Bill 2019 [Seanad]: Second Stage 641 19/02/2019OO03000Companies (Amendment) Bill 2019 [Seanad]: Referral to Select Committee 641 19/02/2019PP00100Civil Registration Bill 2019: Order for Second Stage 642 19/02/2019PP00500Civil Registration Bill 2019: Second Stage 642 19/02/2019SS00400Civil Registration Bill 2019: Referral to Select Committee 651 19/02/2019TT00100Management Fees (Local Property Tax) Relief Bill 2018: Second Stage [Private Members] 651 DÁIL ÉIREANN Dé Máirt, 19 Feabhra 2019 Tuesday, 19 February 2019 Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 2 pm Paidir. Prayer. 19/02/2019A00100Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders’ Questions 19/02/2019A00200Deputy Micheál Martin: There are two further serious reports in the news media today on the continuing saga of the national children’s hospital There is one in the Irish Examiner which is headlined “Secret plan to manage hospital fallout []” and another in The Irish Times which is headlined “Children’s hospital overrun would have happened regardless []” The articles reference a confidential report which the HSE prepared having been asked to do so by the Department of Health. The minutes of the meeting of the joint construction and finance sub-committee of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board on 30 August are par- ticularly revealing because they show that there was significant unease and concern about esca- lating costs. They also reveal that there were significant efforts to keep the news under wraps, including the signing by approximately 25 members of confidentiality clauses. The meeting took place three days after the Minister for Health had been told about a potential overspend of €391 million One wonders whether this overall secrecy fed into the misleading of the Dáil in the answer Deputy Cowen received to his parliamentary question which, as we now know, was not correct The articles also describe a meeting that was held with a public relations agency to discuss the communications fall-out from the overspend They state the meeting with Q4PR examined two scenarios: awarding the phase B contract to BAM or not awarding it to BAM and going with plan B. The minutes show that Mr. John Pollack noted that a paper had been issued and that Anne Butler agreed on some actions that were required That level of engagement with a public relations company in deciding whether the contract was to be awarded to BAM or whether the project was to be retendered as plan B was quite extraordinary. Two issues emerge, one of which relates to the secrecy. One of the 25 people is the top procurement officer in the Civil Service. There is a code, under which he is obliged to report to the Minister, particularly where there are serious weaknesses in controls that have not been addressed, despite having been drawn to the attention of the board or the chairperson. There is an obligation, particularly in a non-commercial State body, to provide that material for the Minister of the day. The main message emanating from this seems to be that the Government’s focus was on controlling the 552 19 February 2019 message, not the cost. Whatever else it did, it would control the message around the overspend. There was no real focus on getting the costs down. It is quite extraordinary. On looking at all the photographs and videos on the national children’s hospital, the Government was good on the hard hats and the yellow vests. It was good on the videos, YouTube, you name it; there was no lack of communication around this hospital right from the get-go. It was all about get- ting the project started. It was even started without the detailed design being worked out. Get boots on the ground, get it working from the public relations perspective. That rendered the Taoiseach very vulnerable when it came to costs and taking a hard line on cost management and control. Is it still the Government’s position that the chief procurement officer did not discuss or alert senior officials in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to this overrun until November, notwithstanding what was going on around August? Can the Taoiseach rule out that the confidentiality around this was not a factor in the Minister misleading the Dáil last September? Will he confirm that all documentation and reports pertaining to this issue will be made public once and for all and that this drip feed of information will be stopped? 19/02/2019B00200The Taoiseach: I understand the minutes to which the Deputy refers are either minutes from committees that met at official level or minutes of the National Paediatric Hospital Devel- opment Board, many of which were made available to the Committee of Public Accounts and other committees many weeks ago. The National Paediatric Hospital Development Board is an agency that was established by the Oireachtas, empowered and given the statutory responsibil- ity to design, build and equip the children’s hospital. There are no politicians on that board or any of those committees and there are no political advisers on any of them Once again this sounds like one of Deputy Martin’s conspiracy theories. There are no politicians or political advisers on this board or any of those committees If the National Paediatric Hospital Develop- ment Board had a PR or communications plan to explain the increased costs of the children’s hospital, it did not do a very good job of it, quite frankly. I think we would all agree on that, given that it was not explained or communicated very well either to the Government or to the public thereafter 19/02/2019B00300Deputy Barry Cowen: The Taoiseach would know about that. 19/02/2019B00400Deputy Thomas Byrne: Blame someone else 19/02/2019B00500The Taoiseach: I understand that one of the reports from the meetings indicates that the increased costs were inevitable That is yet to be determined The PwC report currently
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