Meadowood chef Christopher Kostow and WSJ’s Howie Kahn: The Future of Restaurants INDAGARE GLOBAL CONVERSATIONS | 1.10

Melissa Biggs Bradley Hi, and welcome to Indagare’s Global Conversations, a podcast about how traveling the world shapes our lives and perspectives. I’m Melissa Biggs Bradley of Indagare, a company I founded on the belief that how you travel matters. I’m sitting down with some of the most inspiring and innovative people I’ve met while on the road. They’re activists and conservationists, designers and filmmakers, writers, chefs, and entrepreneurs. They will share stories about their travels and how they lead lives of passion and purpose. They inspire me, as I hope they will you. Welcome to the Conversation!

When I think of some of the most obsessed and obsessive travelers I've known, they're often people who eat their way through destinations and indeed a food scene, a place’s culinary history and its traditions around eating offer much more than just a delicious way to discover a destination, but often reveal clues to its essence. Which may be why every super talented and celebrated chef that I've ever met is also seriously passionate about travel and the places, the dishes and the ingredients that keep them inspired. Christopher Kostow is the chef at the restaurant at Meadowood, which is located at one of my favorite hotels in America -- the Meadowood Resort in Napa Valley. Since 2011, only a few years after Chris took over the restaurant, it has been awarded three stars by Michelin every year. An incredible run that continues to this day and one that has made Chef Chris the third youngest chef ever to win three Michelin stars. He's also the founder of the Charter Oak Restaurant in Napa, which is a more casual establishment and of Ensue in Shenzhen, China. In 2014, he published his first book, A New Napa Cuisine, which was awarded the Book of the Year by the International Association of Culinary Professionals. Chef Chris lives in Napa with his wife and two young daughters. Having had one of the most memorable meals of my life at the restaurant last year when we hosted an Indagare Insider Journey to Napa with WSJ magazine, I can say with conviction that he is a gastronomic genius. Also joining this conversation is Howie Kahn, an author and a contributing editor at the Wall Street Journal's WSJ Magazine. He was also my co-host during our Nappa journey, which is one that we plan to offer again in 2021. Howie is the creator of the daily podcast Takeout Only, which has been covering the hospitality and food industry during COVID 19 and which I highly recommend you give a listen to. As you can imagine, the conversation covers a lot of kitchen wisdom and global eating from Napa to China to Mexico, but it also reveals what both of these food obsessed men always keep in their pantries. And if you're inspired to visit Napa at the end of the episode, stay tuned for some Indagare expert tips on how to plan a visit and what not to miss when you do.

So I'm thrilled to have both of you guys here today. I'm excited to get into talking about cooking and traveling and restaurants. But first, I wanted to start with what this whole lockdown situation looks like for both of you. You know, where you are, who you're sheltering with, how your routines have changed, all of that.

Howie Kahn Chef, you go first.

Christopher Kostow Thank you. I am in lockdown with my wife and two children, which has been lovely for me. They’d have to speak for themselves on how they're enjoying this. So we have been holed up in our home in Calistoga, just a little bit north of where I sit today. And we've been engaging in all those things that are discussed, the 24 hour a day on top of each other contact. Truth be told, to be frank, that part of this whole thing has been wonderful.

MBB Yeah, that's because you get to eat your food and the rest of us have to eat our own cooking. But go ahead, Howie.

HK It's true. Christopher is also sitting inside the restaurant at Meadowood right now, which is a nice place to be. I am inside the restaurant at my mother in law's house where my family has been living in quarantine for the last seven weeks. We have a four year old son and we thought it would be better for him to have a little bit of a backyard in the suburbs as opposed to living in Brooklyn where we live, which started to look like the dark scenes from a Batman movie. So we're here and it's me and my wife and our little boy and my mother and father in law. One big happy family. Cooking's been good.

CK Are you doing all the cooking?

HK I'm doing a lot of cooking. It's hard because everybody likes different things. So I'm cooking, like, kind of diner style, where everybody gets a little bit of what they want. My son's easy. He eats like buttered noodles for every meal. And I want stuff with, like, lots of fish sauce in it. And my mother in law doesn't eat salt. So, I mean, where we're like all we're all over the map. But it's, it's good. I mean, we're learning how to do it every day and, you know, we're all in the same boat.

MBB So, Chris, you want to tell us a little bit about how you found your way to the kitchen?

CK I'm a child of Midwestern suburbs, Highland Park, Illinois, outside of Chicago, where I was born and raised. I started cooking in the summer times at a music festival called Ravinia, which some of you may know is the summer home of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and a venue at the time, for sort of like B level, not as good as they once were, groups like the Ringo Starr All Star Band, things like that. Anyway, the music festival...there was a big food and beverage component operated by a well-known Chicago restaurant group. And that's where all the kids would work for their summer jobs. So I had my first summer job, I think I was like 14, working a cash register. The guys in the kitchen were drinking the leftover box wine and having a really good time. And I said, that's where I want to be. And that began my cooking career, more or less frying chicken and baking flat top cheeseburgers and the like. And I continued to cook in some form or fashion through high school, through college. I went to Hamilton College with a concentration of philosophy and did a lot of cooking there for professors and friends and things of that sort. And I graduated in ‘99 and wanted to go somewhere warm and moved to Southern California, to San Diego with some friends and got a place on the beach and started cooking for a chef named Trey Foshay, who was in La Jolla, is still in La Jolla, is a good friend and a great chef. He sort of gave me my start. After working with him for some time, I went to Europe, was sort of back and forth over four or five years between Europe, mostly France, and both Southern California and eventually Northern California. I worked in Montpellier, Juan les Pines, Paris, Grasse and a long time in Juan-Les-Pins for a chef named Christian Morriset. I had my first chef position, I was a sous chef for Daniel Humm when he was at Campton Place in San Francisco. And when he moved east to take over Eleven Madison Park, I chose to sort of set out on my own and took a job as a chef at this little restaurant south of San Francisco in Mountain View, which is the home of Google. This is sort of, well, Google existed, but it was before Silicon Valley became as much a destination as it is now. And in this little old Victorian home with fake Tiffany lamps and a creaky floor and a bathroom lock that wouldn’t work and all sorts of very odd touches, I think we did some pretty good food and got some recognition. And I was looking at that time, this is 2008, 2007, I was looking for what I believed to be a bigger stage and better launching pad and maybe some more visibility and some things to compliment that cooking I believed we were doing. I heard about this place, Meadowood, which I frankly hadn't heard of prior, and they were looking for a chef. And it happened pretty quick. And I was up here for my first day of service. It was Valentine's Day of 2008. And I have been here a long time. I have far longer than I've ever been any place. I've lived here longer than I've ever lived any place; we've been able to make this our home. So I think we've had some successes here. I count the ones in the personal life of far greater value than the restaurant stuff. Here we are with an amazing wife and two amazing girls.

HK I have a question. When you went to interview for that job, you have partners at the restaurant, the Harlan's, who are real visionaries and to make some of the most amazing wines in the world and have built incredible vineyards and wineries, and they're really people with a plan. I think Bill Harlan actually has like a 200 year plan for his family or something like that, literally. What did you do to convince them that you were the guy? I mean, that's a pretty high stakes interview. It's not just like some dude who wants to open a random restaurant.

CK I think to Bill's credit, he stays out of some of that decision making. When this began, when that process of being vetted and then people coming down to eat it at Chez TJ, and he was not part of that. I think that he smartly deferred to other people who were more embedded in the food and beverage space, specifically the food space. I frankly only met Bill really after the deal had been done. And as to whether or not his people did that deliberately, I don't know. But I have certainly been the beneficiary of Bill's insight and wisdom for a long time.

HK That's really cool.

MBB What would you say that you learned the most from Bill Harlan? Because he's a real visionary.

CK Man. I would just say, this, this sounds a little bit, pat, but sort of that pursuit of, that pursuit of perfection. Certainly an eye for physical beauty, that I've learned from him. The idea of being mindful of who your shareholders are, meaning who you are, in some ways, responsible for. I think the desire, the need to not look at what is transient or look at sort of with a wider lens of what you're doing and the impact that it has. Not to worry about being trendy and things of that sort. I think it's about the idea of putting roots down somewhere and being a good steward of those roots and a good steward of one's community and being an articulate voice for the people that you're working for.

HK One of the things I love about your food is it comes from, you know, as close to the restaurant as you can get. You guys have a beautiful farm. You grow all your own produce. Your seasons are micro seasons. Sometimes, you know, things only pop out of the ground and they're there for a week or less and, and then they're gone. Do you think that people are going to follow your lead more and start growing your stuff and might be turning to you for -- How do I do that? How do I make what's in my yard delicious? How do I take advantage of what I have?

CK Well, I think agriculture is really a central tenet of what we do. In a restaurant setting, it requires a good deal of resources for sort of get that running and to support that thing. I do think there's gonna be, I hope, an increasing degree of mindfulness about what we're getting and how we're getting it. That should lead to people either growing more of their own products or at least being more cognizant of where they come from. I do think that that is part of it. That the idea of health, of wellness, of safety will become paramount. And I think being able to know exactly where your food comes from is the starting point.

HK You guys did some farm boxes during all of this and then sold them through Charter Oak. How were they received? Were people super excited about them? What was the response?

CK Yeah, I mean, incredibly so. To be honest, we couldn't, we couldn't keep up. Which is both great. It gives us a contact point with the consumer. And it also, again, speaks to that segway into more pick up, take out stuff that isn't going to go anywhere.

HK And also another revenue stream for restaurants who are sorely going to kind of need it. I think that's great. I mean, I saw what you guys were selling farm box wise, and kind of had a crazy thought about driving across the country, just getting one and coming up. I mean, these are...this is the COVID brain, you know. Maybe I should just drive across the country. I know I'm supposed to stay home, but if I'm just in my car and I'm by myself. And then just like, no.

CK But I had this odd desire to take home what a massive cross-country trip during this time and just see. It’d be be incredibly dystopian, I think visually, but I think it'd be incredibly interesting to see the breadth of the country in a lock down state.

HK I think that I don't...I've never realized, kind of, how important it was for me to stay moving. I've taken it massively for granted. I mean, we were living a life six months ago and it was like, I'm going to get on a plane and do a story in Napa and then I'm gonna go lead a trip with Melissa in France. And then no, maybe, you know, somebody is interesting in Portugal, but we can't do that anymore. It really kind of hurts. Let's talk about China. Melissa, you want to...you want to get into both the China side of this?

MBB Yeah, I'm curious. I mean, your background, Chris, obviously, you, I know you were educated in France around food and to some degree, you brought that historical tradition back to California, but then you chose to open in China. Can you talk about how you got there and also what you've learned while opening a business there?

CK Yeah, I was approached by a young man named Ricky Li, he’s become a very good friend who is from Shenzhen and, you know, a very much a world traveler, very much a gastronome. And he really wanted to, and wants to, make Shenzhen a culinary destination. Shanghai within mainland China is obviously much more of a modern culinary destination. But Shenzhen is a rapidly growing city with a lot of youth and a lot of tech and a lot of wealth. There's really been no West Great Western dining represented there so it seemed very interesting to me. China as a market obviously is endlessly interesting. And Chinese cuisine, which I cannot claim to be any sort of expert on other than a real enthusiast, is so interesting and dovetails so much more with California cooking than I would have ever fathomed; specifically a traditional Cantonese cook -- it was called the Bay Area of Southern China. So it was just an endlessly interesting proposition. And we opened last August. We've dealt since then with massive civil unrest in Hong Kong, which is just over the border, and that a pandemic, which hit obviously January of this year. So it's been an interesting ride, but I've learned a lot. And now we're on the other side of all this-- Ensue is -- and it's really starting to do well. So it's been interesting.

MBB So when did you reopen Ensue and how have you managed to do that with your team? Because I remember when we were with you in October, you were still going back and forth a fair amount. Obviously, you had not been able to go to China probably since January, right?

CK Yeah, I haven't actually ever been since November. The plan this year interestingly enough was for me to spend a lot of time throughout China, Sichuan province in Chengdu, a lot in the South, some trips to Shanghai to really get a better understanding of Chinese cooking with my partner Ricky over there. Obviously that all fell apart at the outset, beginning of the year, but but Ensue was shut down. I can't remember the exact date, but it was during Chinese New Year. So that just created all these logistical issues because you have your staff scattered, not just all over mainland China, but a lot of them are Taiwanese some are Singaporean, some are in Bali and everyone is all over. So getting them back, first and foremost, was challenging. They all had to quarantine for long periods of time. So, getting everyone safe before we can reopen was important. We reopened. Obviously, we learned a lot from that experience and trying to apply it to to here, it was absolutely a ghost town for the first couple weeks and all the rules and regulations that we're talking about now, the separation, the masks, the gloves, the temperature checks, all that was very much enforced and still is there. So it's really nice to see and it's been pretty optimistic and I've been sort of telling my chef peers here in the US that there is light at the other end of the tunnel. We just got to, go through, jump through quite a few hoops to get there.

HK Has your supply chain been affected at all there? How are your farmers and vendors and suppliers and how is it to get? I know it's so challenging for you to set up that network in the first place. And it was something you were really working on. We had talked about, you know, you opening a farm of your own over there, too. So how's the food itself?

CK The bigger challenge is less the supply chain and more the optics wherein we are really trying to use only Chinese ingredients, which there are just incredible, incredible products. But the consumer is...there's both a value proposition that we've always run into there, where people are like, “but this is from China; why would I want that?” They want the imported. So that's been an issue from the get go. But now there's that supply chain safety question. People want to see, they really demand to see imported products. So when reopened we made some concessions in that respect. You know, our beef would come from Australia and our abalone would come from Japan or whatever those things were. But we really think that our original vision is the correct one. We are still building that farm. That's well underway. And we think in time it's going to be a real shift of thinking that that's going to have to occur. But in the end, we think that's the good fight to fight. And I think in the end, we’ll win that.

MBB Chris, can I ask you to go back to something you said about China. You were talking about how the cuisine was really similar to California cuisine. Can you explain that a little bit? Because I can't say that it seems obvious to me when I think about the similarities between Chinese cooking and California cooking.

CK It’s not really Chinese cooking at large. It's really traditional Cantonese cooking, which is really very product driven, very elemental and very simple to a degree that I didn't understand until I ate a lot of meals there, to be honest with you. So it's almost the menu as we have it now over there really feels -- it feels like the restaurant Meadowood went to China. It doesn't feel like we are presupposing some great knowledge of Chinese cooking. It feels very seamless. The reason it feels very seamless is because it's really most of the basic tenets. There's certain things that are -- and we learn this upon opening, it was such an interesting experience -- things that I never thought about, the idea of things being aromatic qualities and things that I never really thought about; food temperature is really important there. Temperature of different elements of a dish, the changing temperatures throughout courses, all those things. I had no I had no sense of and I'm still learning. But the similarities far outweigh the differences. And that's something I'm really looking to explore more. And that was my plan for 2020. But we're here to kick that to 2021.

MBB I recall you speaking about the subtleties of Chinese culture and how they can be hard for Westerners to navigate. And I think you said that some of the dishes at Ensure have taught you that. I think I recall you mentioning a soup of some kind.

CK It's actually a water turtle soup. It's a tureen made of water turtle and black truffle that's been shaved and then a bunch of wild onions and things and then a broth of the turtle. So very Cantonese. This was a perfect example of a dish that did not work at Ensue because there's such a lack of frame of reference of Western cooking that when we tried to apply some of these Cantonese products and techniques, and it's presented in a way different from what people have historically seen in terms of those usage of those products, they think it's just wrong. I think that's a great example of a dish that just did not work. We thought it was delicious, but the consumer was like, that's not how you use water turtle. Very, very, very humbling.

MBB Do you see farm to table increasing as a trend in China?

CK It's a really good question. I don't know. I think if so, it would be a very, very slow curve because, A, there's not the value placed on vegetables the way...how should I say this? At a high end level at a fancy luxury dining level, there's definitely more value placed on a rarity. That's like a big thing; rarity of that fish, the grade of that Wagyu, and that's very foreign to me in terms of how we cook? So I think the money is needed to build a farm and all that stuff. I don't know if there's a reward on the end at a higher level. I think Ensue’s success or lack of success over the next several years, I think, will be an interesting sort of canary in the coal mine for how far Western cooking can go there and how far Western farm driven cooking can go there.

MBB And have you brought things that you've learned then from that experience into the restaurant at Meadowood?

CK Yeah, that's really been our focus -- is with all the restaurants and future restaurants, is making sure that we are able to grow together because they all have similar missions, but different, different lenses. Whenever we get the restaurant reopened, we're starting with a tea course, which we’ve done in some fashion. And by no means does it feel Chinese, Cantonese. It feels very much of Napa. But that idea of starting with a warm broth, that degree of simplicity and resetting the palate and all those things that I learned in opening Ensue, we are very much applying to the restaurant.

HK Has it changed the way you cook at home at all?

CK I've been cooking a lot of Chinese at home. I mean, I think my wife's over it, frankly, but I've been working through some of Fuchsia Dunlop's books and...

HK Amazing books!

CK Just, oh my God! And would you realize, even in that, is that a lot of Chinese cooking, it seems so mysterious to us. At the other day, above all else, it's just a different pantry and the techniques themselves are not so widely different. And I spend a lot of time building that Chinese pantry over the past couple months at home. It's amazing the amount of dried shrimp you can get on Amazon. So it's been really it's been really, really...that part has been really fun. I mean, literally, you can get anything on Amazon. It’s absolutely remarkable. So, you know, there's a dish I cooked the other day that I think was one the greatest things I've ever eaten in my entire life from one of Fuchsia Dunlop’s books. I think it’s called Every Grain of Rice, I think, is the book. But it's like noodles, dried shrimp, spring onion and soy sauce.

HK That's awesome.

CK I'll send you the recipe. It is one of the most delicious things I've ever had. But that's that idea of what— that's very similar to California cooking: few ingredients, great products, nothing fussy. Nothing cluttered and it's amazing.

HK One thing I have enjoyed about this kind of locked down time is that my pantry has expanded like a hundred fold because every time I can't sleep, I feel a little anxious, I just keep buying more food from all around the world. So there's like, you know, seven kinds of fish sauces that weren't there before and all kinds of dried products. And it's interesting. It's like...

CK I wish I had the physical space for the growing pantry.

HK Yeah. Like, there's no restraint on those small treats right now. There's no such thing as like, I don't need it because there's kind of like the world's ending in the back of my mind. So I do need it and I need it right now.

CK It is amazing what culinary creativity comes out of a dystopian landscape, right?

HK Absolutely.

MBB Now, I have a question actually for both of you, because travel and food have such a strong symbiotic relationship. And you both have talked about sort of the pantry representing a culture and a place and a food and what that sort of Proustian thing about food is that brings you to places. Can you speak about why that is in your own personal experience and what draws people to traveling for food?

HK I've been thinking about this a lot because I miss the foods I travel for so much and I've been thinking about what is it exactly? And there's two common things for me that all those experiences have. One is it's something unmistakably delicious and often new. But the other part of it that I've been kind of seeing more clearly, but I haven't focused on too much before is what you're doing when you're eating. When you're eating and traveling, the eating part is usually when you stop, you're not on a tour. You're not in the museum. You're not walking down the street. You're not in a car. You're stopped. You've joined with people. You're having a discussion, you're enjoying each other, you're letting things in. And maybe you're discussing the food. Maybe you're not. But but because of, you know, the mobility kind of comes to a halt. I think you enjoy things in that moment so much. And the thing you get to enjoy is, is the food. So the food's obviously delicious. But I have been thinking about the moment of eating it a lot. And it's weird to think that I want to go somewhere far just so I can stop. But that feels like an earned luxury; you don't get to stop like that at home. So sort of the best pauses in all of life for me are the ones where you sit down and you have a meal.

MBB Well, in that pause, you're also processing everything that's coming at you. HK And focusing on your focusing on your senses. Like, I'm not thinking about my senses when I'm sitting at my desk doing my taxes or, you know, trying to land a new story or putting together a podcast. But when you stop, you know, with food, you can smell it. You can taste it. Sometimes you can hear it. It's exciting.

MBB What about for you, Chris?

CK I think, you know, modernity is homogeneity and a lot of ways and to go to different places and eat the different food of different cultures is to witness the distillation of something so wholly different from our own lives. And I really...I can't tell you how much I want to get back to China. It's delicious in just a shocking way. But it's also a window into thousands and thousands of years of cumulative culture, different from any of my own personal experience. There's a connectivity of humankind that comes from that, but also the awareness which is even maybe more powerful of the differences and how just unbelievably diverse all of this is. And I think, again, that runs counter to what the modern world is becoming, unfortunately. And maybe that's why restaurants in general, be them here or abroad, are so damn important, is that they are the combination and the accumulation of all these different things that are inherently unique and that's beautiful.

MBB So when do you think you're going to go back to Asia?

CK As soon as it's safe! As soon as the return will not land me in quarantine on the airport tarmac somewhere. So we have some collaborative dinners that we have planned with some pretty big name chefs in the fall at Ensue. So hopefully I can get there.

HK God, I’m ready to get on a plane. It's like, take me with you.

CK I know. I'm so...we're, we as a family, we travel so much. And I mean, even before this hit here, because all my travels were supposed to be in Asia in the beginning of the year, we've canceled, obviously everything gets canceled. But it's just...I've gone nowhere this year. I've gone, I went to LA. That was it. And there's something nice about that. But I am ready to get on a plane.

HK Me too. Me too.

CK So, you know, I'm based in New York and I'll probably get to go to a restaurant first in New York. Howie, you spent a lot of time since lockdown through your podcast, looking at the restaurant industry all over America? But can you talk a little bit about your podcast “Takeaway Only” and get some...can we get some predictions from you about what's going to happen to the scene in New York?

HK I love that. Yeah. I mean, we started this podcast as kind of an emergency response to tell an important story from the food world where restaurants were closing, people were losing their jobs. Nobody really knew what was going to happen next. And I've been reporting on food and the food world for about 20 years. And throughout my entire career, it's just been nothing but ascension. I mean, there's been more interest, more focus, more growth, more creativity in that span than probably any other time in the history of food. I've been really lucky. So I kind of felt like I've rode this incredible wave this entire time. So I was, you know, damn sure that I was going to stick with everybody while the wave was crashing and tell a different kind of story now until things stabilize so we can start talking about the fun again. So I've been reporting on a constant basis and I've talked to people all over the country and all over the world. And I think the similarity between all the guests is how hardworking everybody is, how much of a fighter everybody is, how much everybody wants to make all the wrongs right. A lot of restaurants may not reopen. The ones that do will look different, but they'll be there for us. You know, they'll be there with delicious food. And it might not be the kind of thing that we're used to. It might not be a sit down dinner. It might be a dinner in a box that you take home. It might be a kind of delivery service. It might be, you know, something off the menu that's packaged in a different way. Getting into a restaurant and having a meal may feel like, you know, a heightened luxury because it's going to be a little bit more rare. Going to a restaurant could be a kind of travel. But, man, the people in the restaurant industry are so scrappy and they're so creative. So I don't know. I mean, I'm excited to support it in any way I can. And that's going to mean something too. I mean, maybe the way you support your restaurants isn't going to be going to the restaurant, but just kind of being mindful. That relationship will still need to happen where money transfers from a customer to a place of business is what's going to keep things going. So it's -- buy a T-shirt, buy a gift certificate. Make a reservation for June 5th, 2026. Like, you know, do what you can.

MBB And Chris, where are you finding inspiration for developing new dishes in this downtime? You mentioned Fuchsia Dunlop, but anywhere else that you're looking for inspiration these days?

CK I find, and this might be a result of my age or whatever, I find that my best work comes not from, like, seeking inspiration, but for having the time to sort of quiet the mind and try to get above the daily distractions that otherwise exist. So that's that's everything to me. And the conversations I have with my team throughout this process that...I feel like if I just have quiet focus time, I can create really great food. I don't need to, like, see a bunch of other things. I mean, I think I have 43 years of accumulated things I've seen. It’s just a question of being still enough to access.

MBB Another question for both of you. Do you see any major food trends coming out of COVID 19? Are there any foods that you see becoming scarce, for instance, or are there any that will become the new luxury?

HK I think many more foods are going to feel like the new luxury for a while. I see, you know, and Angie Mar, who's at the Beatrice Inn in New York -- she's always made a beautiful fried chicken that she served in her bar. But now I see that she's doing it on a carry out basis. And I just can't even imagine what it tastes like to eat Angie Mar's restaurant Fried Chicken right now. So I feel like there's gonna be such joy in getting back to these things. I think about something like Jessica Koslow’s toast with jam at Sqirl, you know, which costs like six or seven bucks and it's amazing toast with jam. But that toast with jam is gonna taste like, you know, seven pounds of caviar in my mouth when I'm able to get back into a restaurant after all this. So I think there's gonna be a greater appreciation across the board. And I do think people are going to start growing their own stuff, too. So I think there's gonna be a kind of exchange. Like, I understand that tomato now at a restaurant because I grow a tomato now myself. I think there's gonna be a deeper understanding. I think understanding and gratitude are going to be the trends.

CK More people are cooking as a result of this now. And I think in time, what's gonna happen is the idea of, like, chef as celebrity, which in and of itself is a new thing. We'll sort of hopefully be committed again to the dust pile of history where it's not about -- the chef has all this secret information that no one else has. Rather, the onus is going to be enough to create experiences that are humble, that make people feel good or the service is good and that cooking is honest. The design is good. That's more what it's about than this personality driven stuff that we've been saying for the last couple of decades. I think that's going to be big results of this; sort of a democratization of of the knowledge.

MBB And since you're both cooking a lot at home right now, do you have any tips that you could share, what people can do to improve or that you think are mistakes that people might typically make when cooking at home?

CK I've always said that people try to do too much. Likem, if you have a sharp knife and a good pan and a nice piece of whatever and just focus on as building blocks. Just again, focus on sourcing, simple cooking techniques, and you build upon that until you have some degree of mastery. I think people sort of jump in the deep end and try to do all these things. And it's also my perception of food is like really good products, simply done is probably as good as it could be. I think it's a mistake that people make. Yeah. Shop well.

HK What's been interesting for me is I'm not at my own house right now, so I'm not at my own kitchen. I’m gracious, trying to be a gracious guest of my wonderful in-laws. So I have, you know, their kitchen. And so it's been getting used to different pans, a different stove, different heat distribution. And I've kind of been like, it's been a fun challenge. A different kitchen is kind of for relearning how to cook. Anytime I have time, I'm always just I always play with eggs a lot. So I think, like, find something you enjoy and then just like alter the technique slightly and have fun with that. I mean, what else are you gonna have time to do eggs over a low, over medium, over high and then do it like, you know, and all the interim temperatures in the same day. I'm working on my Japanese omelet right now and just kind of failing miserably most of the time. But it's a fun process.

MBB We talked a little bit about the expanding pantry during COVID 19 lockdown. But can you mention a couple of your staples?

HK A lot of fish sauce. Red Boat fish sauce. There's this Colatura di Alici I ordered. That's, that's amazing. I've been ordering...when I was in college at the University of Michigan, I worked at a great deli and shop called Zingerman's. And I always kind of promised myself that once I was like a grown up working human, I would buy all the stuff from there that I could have never afforded as a college student. And I never really did it. And kind of now I started thinking about them a lot and I want to support their business while they're kind of shut down. So I've been buying a lot of stuff from them. So I have some slow cooking polenta from them. I have some great cheeses from them. I got the colatura from them, some spicy pepper stuff also. So I'm kind of also thinking a lot about businesses that mean something for me to support right now. Jessica's ham from Sqirl. I just kind of keep ordering over and over again. I'm, like, eating a jar of it a week by myself, which, whatever. I mean, cool.

CK It’s for the common good.

HK There's a lot. There's a lot like, there's a lot of good stuff out there. It's actually a really exciting time to mail order food.

MBB Chris, what are a couple of your staples?

CK I've always been a bit of a condiment pantry whore anyways. I have like, I don't know. I don't know what more I can add other than...I mean, we've added, obviously, a bunch of different dried chilies and chili oils and soys and fish sauces and all those sorts of things. But that is only on top of. And we have a very small home in Calistoga and 80 percent of the fridge is condiments and pantry items.

HK Can I ask you a question? What do you like commercially for miso paste?

CK I don't, I don't buy a lot to be honest. Only because we have such a big miso program at the restaurant that we just, I just...we make this finger licking miso. Charlie, who runs all the preservation here, I'll send you some. It’s a quick miso, but it's like really, really good.

HK I do also think that to go back to the trend question, like the result of that answer is, I do think as consumers we're going to have more access to restaurant pantries in terms of buying things.

MBB And going from the kitchen or pantry back to travel. Besides China for Chris, do you have favorite destinations to travel to for food? And Howie, what are a couple of your favorite food destinations?

HK I was in Sicily before COVID, about a month before that hit, and I can't get over every time I go back there how I feel like I discover an entirely new world for such a small island in terms of its square mileage. The density of variety, of new techniques, of surprises is...it's just astonishing to me. And I think a lot of people talk about Japan in the same sense. But for me, the discoveries in Sicily every time just blow me away.

MBB And Chris, your favorites besides China?

CK I love Mexico. Just in my bones. I always have. So I love traveling there. There's not a lot of places I don't I don't love. I mean, Howie is saying that about Sicily. Like, now I need to, I actually have to go to Sicily.

MBB Sicily is on the top of my list, too, Chris. So I have two last questions for you. One is, if you have any charitable organizations that you're connected with. For people who want to have a positive impact on the industry and on the region that you would be able to recommend.

HK I've been donating a lot of money myself to -- well not a lot of money but like, whatever I can spare -- to World Central Kitchen, which is José Andrés’ organization, they're doing a lot of amazing work getting food to people who need it all over the country, whether it's people in low income areas people in remote areas, frontline workers. So that's a good one to start with.

CK I mean, historically, we are benefactors, or the charities that we work with are hyper local; like we...most of our dollars go to something called St. Helena Preschool For All, which pays for preschool education, often for undocumented, the children of undocumented workers here in the Valley. As this arose, we've been working with a local organization that is trying to serve food to those same families. So that's sort of an ongoing thing. We're trying to collectively with a few other restaurants, try to figure out how to do that in a sustainable manner. So we're still working on that

MBB To end on a question about travel since we have mentally visited so many places together in the course of this conversation -- what do you think the greatest gift of travel is? I've been loving asking this question because I get very different responses and I'm really interested to hear both of yours.

CK As a chef, you realize that the way we do things, the way I was taught or the way that is considered normal is...but, you know, an infinite timeline of human cooking is just the breadth of a hair. You know, it's nothing. And that there is so much, even though there's so much content out there about food, there is so much more that has just never been touched. Just so inspiring and makes you feel as though this...there's still a lot of seeking and a lot of learning left to do. That's the positive for me.

HK Yeah. I mean, lately I've been thinking a lot about that, too. I think it's the flexibility. I mean, when you're on the road and you're going places, it's kind of this constant reminder that you're not in control over much. You can I mean, you know, Melissa, you run a beautiful travel company that's based on planning. But as you know, like when we had our trip in Napa, there were fires not not so far away from from where we were. So I think that kind of adaptability, that kind of awareness and that kind of you know, at some point you’ve got to throw your hands up and just kind of understand that there are things more powerful than us. And travel always reminds me of that, and it's grounding.

MBB We're always looking to our members and to listeners like you for feedback on how to improve our podcast. So with that in mind, we're going to start sharing some more practical travel advice. Sometimes that may be a bit of a deeper dive into the destination you just heard about. And other times we may share more context or tips that relate to the episode you just listen to. This segment may evolve as we move forward. So please feel free to continue submitting feedback and telling us what you like and what you don't. You can submit your feedback to [email protected]. We'd love to hear from you because with all of these inspiring stories from tastemakers and change makers around the world, we want to show you that not only can you dream about transforming your life through travel, but you can actually make it happen. For a little more context about how I got to know Chris and Howie, Indagare runs Insider Journeys, which are intimate group trips that we hosted for our members and sometimes in partnership with like-minded brands like WSJ Magazine. Each itinerary blends destination highlights with behind the scenes access and introductions to local insiders. As I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, Howie was my co-host for a particular journey we took to the Napa Valley and we had one of the most magical meals of my life at Chris's restaurant. I've been to this beautiful California region numerous times over the past 25 years, and each time I visit, I am more enamored because I keep coming back armed with more knowledge of its history. Books like James Conaway's Napa at Last Night and movies like “Bottle Shock” are amazing guides to the Napa Valley. But so are the residents shaping its local culture. They are people I've been lucky to meet, like Chef Chris and Thomas Keller, who with their restaurants have made Napa a singular destination for foodies from around the world with gourmet outposts like the restaurant at Meadowood and the French Laundry, but also with their more casual spots like the Charterhouse and Bouchon Bakery. And then there are the hotel visionaries like the folks behind Meadowood and Auberge de Soleil and Calistoga Ranch. All first class resorts, but totally different in feeling and in style. Meadowood is my top pick for families and Auberge is best for couples or honeymooners, and I would recommend Calistoga Ranch for a celebration with a group of friends. In fact, I celebrated a friend's 40th birthday at Calistoga Ranch a number of years ago with a dozen women friends, and our itinerary was a perfect Napa blend of outdoor activities and indulgent meals, special wine tastings and hikes, as well as lots of spa time and shopping in St. Helena. I also just have to mention a special boutique hotel that happens to combine inn, farm and culinary destination restaurant, and that's Healdburg’s Single Thread Farm. The property was modeled after the concept of the Japanese ryokan and the kaiseki style dinner served before you head upstairs to one of the five bedrooms will truly take your breath away. It's really a quintessential wine country pilgrimage experience. And of course, food and wine are the best ways to immerse yourself in Napa. I know so many people drive into Napa Valley by way of Sonoma on the winding Oakville grade road, and if you do, you must make a stop at the Oakville grocery, which is the best place to find the perfect picnic basket to enjoy at a winery while you soak in the views. Another must stop is Mustard's Grill in Yountville, where they serve the legendary Mongolian pork chop and many other memorable California New American plates. It's a place I somehow find myself in every single time I go to the Valley. And my favorite lunch spot is probably the Farmstead at Long Meadow Ranch. Be sure that you request to be seated outdoors so that you are nestled in between the vines as you enjoy the farm to table fare. As for wineries, you'll want to organize your day around Highway 29 and the Silverado trail. The two roads run parallel, but offer completely different experiences. On Highway 29, I never miss Schramsberg for its sparkling wine and its deep roaring caves that will immediately transport you to Champagne. I also love Spottswood for its intimate atmosphere and one of my favorite cabernet sauvignons. I was actually first introduced to this wine eating at Mustard's many years back. For real wine lovers, it's worth stopping at Opus One for what many consider to be the most iconic cab in the Valley. But if you want to go more off the beaten path, the Silverado trail is where you should head. Stag's Leap Wine Cellars has a stunning modern cellar room boasting floor to ceiling windows. And it's this winery that was made famous in the 1976 Paris Tasting, which put Napa Valley on the world stage. And Quintessa is also a worthwhile stop for beautiful valley views and World-Class wine. And for a more casual experience, I always like to visit Duckhorn for its wraparound porch, decorated with the best type of wicker chairs. You can easily lose a day here. I could talk about Napa Valley wineries and eateries for days, but I also want to mention that the actual city of Napa has come a long way in the last few decades. Many visitors speed right by the Napa exit in their rush to get up the Valley. But I really think it's worth a look or a return visit. You should definitely stop at the Oxbow Public Market to check out some of the area's amazing producers. And a more recent discovery for me was the Blue Note Jazz Club, which has great musicians and singers on the schedule and offers something a little different for a Napa night out. Okay. And lastly, when you leave, if you want to take some Napa home with you, check out some of the family run specialty food shops like Woodhouse Chocolates in St. Helena and the St. Helena Olive Oil Company, because wine tastings are not the only kind worth savoring in Napa. There are World-Class producers of jams, teas, oils, cheeses, so many things. And the best ones weave the stories of their production into the tastings, so you really get to understand how the makers here are also serving as stewards of the place and how easy it is to keep tasting even from home. If this talk left you hungry for more discussion of the joys of sharing food and the unique role of restaurants in society or the crisis affecting this industry right now, we're releasing a bonus episode this week with Camilla Marcus, the charismatic hospitality entrepreneur and Danny Meyer protege who has been instrumental in campaigning to save restaurants and their workers from a lock down decimation. She is a true innovator who has baked philanthropy and sustainability into her New York restaurant, Westbourne. Now she's juggling parenting her first child and fighting on the frontlines for government relief for the country's independent restaurants. She is an inspiring warrior, waging a battle that will have a long lasting impact on America's dining scene, but also on the opportunities for millions of low wage workers. She will share her unlikely journey from being a business student at Wharton and earning a law degree to opening a sustainable restaurant and lobbying Washington politicians. As well as, of course, revealing her favorite hotels and travel stories and lessons from her role as the director of hospitality for Danny Meyer. Please keep an eye on our website -- indagare.com -- for details on the next WSJ and Indagare trip to Napa in 2021 and to become part of our travel community and see additional podcasts and travel content.

Producer Thank you for joining us for this Indagare Global Conversation. We hope you'll tune in next time and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. It also helps us enormously if you write and review us on iTunes and be sure to check out www.indagare.com/globalconversations for information on joining one of our conversations live. Be sure to also follow us on Instagram @indagaretravel for more travel inspiration and news on our programming and upcoming episodes.