TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
^3ARY In the Matter of: ) SUPREME COURT, U.S. ) WASHINGTON, D.C., 20543 HUSTLER MAGAZINE AND LARRY C. FLYNT, ) ) Petitioners, ) ) v. ) No. 86-1278 ) JERRY FALWELL.
Pages: 1 through 48
Place: Washington, D.C.
Date: December 2, 1987
Heritage Reporting Corporation Official Reporters 1220 L Street. N.W. Washington. D.C. 20005 (202) 628-4888 1
1 IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
2 ------x
3 HUSTLER MAGAZINE AND LARRY C. FLYNT, : 4 Petitioners, :
5 V. : No. 86-1278
6 JERRY FALWELL : 7 ------x
8 Washington, D.C.
9 Wednesday, December 2, 1987
10 The above-entitled matter came on for oral argument
11 before the Supreme Court of the United States at 10:01 a.m.
12 APPEARANCES:
13 ALAN I. ISAACMAN, ESQ., Beverly Hills, California; 14 on behalf of the Petitioners.
15 NORMAN ROY GRUTMAN, ESQ., New York, New York;
16 on behalf of the Respondent. 17
18 19
20
21
22
23 24
25
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 2 1 CONTENTS 2 ORAL ARGUMENT OF PAGE
3 ALAN L. ISAACMAN, ESQ. 4 on behalf of Petitioners 3
5 NORMAN ROY GRUTMAN, ESQ.
6 on behalf of Respondent 26 7
8
9
10
11
12
13 14
15
16 17 18
19
20
21
22 23 24
25
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 3
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 (10:01 a.m.)
3 CHIEF JUSTICE REHNQUIST: We'll hear argument first 4 this morning in No. 86-1278, Hustler Magazine and Larry C.
5 Flynt versus Jerry Falwell.
6 Mr. Isaacman, you may proceed whenever you're ready. 7 ORAL ARGUMENT OF ALAN L. ISAACMAN
8 ON BEHALF OF PETITIONERS
9 MR. ISAACMAN: Mr. Chief Justice and may it please
10 the Court:
11 The First Amendment protects all speech except for
12 certain narrowly drawn categories. For example, the First
13 Amendment does protect false statements of fact made with 14 requisite fault. The First Amendment doesn't protect obscene 15 speech. The First Amendment doesn't protect fighting words
16 made in the presence of the person to whom the words are 17 addressed and likely to incite violence.
18 This cases raises as a general question the question 19 of whether the Court should expand the areas left unprotected
20 by the First Amendment, and create another exception to
21 protected speech. And in this situation, the new area that is
22 sought to be protected is satiric or critical commentary of a
23 public figure which does not contain any assertions of fact. 24 QUESTION: Are you suggesting that would be a change
25 in our constitutional jurisprudence to protect that?
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 4
1 MR. ISAACMAN: Yes, sir, I ara. I am suggesting
2 that.
3 In a specific way, the guestion becomes: is
4 rhetorical hyperbole, satire, parody, or opinion protected by
5 the First Amendment when it doesn't contain assertions of fact
6 and when the subject of the rhetorical hyperbole is a public
7 figure. Another way of putting this case is, can the First
8 Amendment limitations which have been set out in New York Times
9 versus Sullivan and its progeny be evaded by a public figure
10 who instead of alleging libel or instead of alleging invasion
11 of privacy, seeks recovery for an allegedly injurious falsehood
12 by labeling his cause of action intentional infliction of
13 emotional distress.
14 In judging the publication that's at issue here, I
15 think it's important to look at the context in which it
16 appeared. The speaker of course was Hustler Magazine, and
17 Hustler Magazine is known by its readers as a magazine that
18 contains sexually explicit pictures, and contains irreverent
19 humor. As an editorial policy, it takes on the sacred cows and
20 the sanctimonious in our society. It focuses on three subject
21 areas primarily. It focuses on sex, it focuses on politics and
22 it focuses on religion.
23 Hustler Magazine has been the target of attacks and
24 critical commentary by Jerry Falwell for years and for years
25 prior to this ad publication. Hustler Magazine is at the other
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 5
1 end of the political spectrum from Jerry Falwell. On the other 2 hand, Jerry Falwell filling out the context of this speech, is
3 the quintessential public figure. It's hard to imagine a
4 person in this country who doesn't hold political office who
5 can has more publicity associated with his name than Jerry
6 Falwell.
7 Jerry Falwell is the head of the moral majority.
8 The moral majority, he testified at the trial, numbers some six
9 million people. It's a political organization, he indicates.
10 It was set up to advance certain political views. One of the
11 foremost views is to attack what he considers to be
12 pornography, and to attack kings of porn, in his words. And
13 foremost among those kings of porn in his mind is Larry Flynt.
14 He includes in that group others as well, such as Bob Guccioni
15 of Penthouse and such as Hugh Hefner of Playboy.
16 The moral majority and Jerry Falwell also attack
17 sexual conduct that they don't consider appropriate. He has
18 spoken on the subject of extramarital and premarital sex. He
19 doesn't approve of heterosexuals living together outside of
20 wedlock. He also doesn't approve and condemns homosexuality.
21 Now, these aren't private views he has kept to himself or just
22 shared with his family. These are views that he's gone on the
23 political stump and tried to convince other people about.
24 He has been known in his words, as he testified, by
25 the Good Housekeeping magazine which did a survey as the
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 6
1 second-most admired man in the United States, next to the
2 President.
3 QUESTION: Well, Mr. Isaacman, is the fact that you
4 claim Mr. Falwell is a public figure in dispute in this case?
5 MR. ISAACMAN: It isn't in dispute at all.
6 QUESTION: Well, then, I guess we could move on to
7 the arguments, because apparently your remarks are for the
8 purpose of demonstrating he's a public figure. Is that right?
9 MR. ISAACMAN: Justice O'Connor, it's to really to
10 fill out the political context and the fact that what we have
11 here are people who are at opposite ends of the political
12 spectrum, engaging in the uninhibited robust and wide open
13 debate in New York Times v. Sullivan.
14 QUESTION: Does the State have an interest in
15 protecting its citizens from emotional distress, do you
16 suppose?
17 MR. ISAACMAN: Clearly, the State has an interest in
18 protecting its citizens from emotional distress.
19 QUESTION: And perhaps that's an even greater
20 interest than protecting reputation.
21 MR. ISAACMAN: I would submit that it is not a 22 greater interest than protecting reputation, because in the
23 area of reputational injury, libel as we know it, for example,
24 when it's in written form, emotional distress is an element of
25 recovery as well as damage to reputation, and reputation
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 7
1 affects what other people think of you. It affects what goes
2 on in the minds of other people as well, and not just the minds
3 of one citizen. So reputation in a sense covers a lot more
4 territory than emotional distress does.
5 And the point of what I'm trying to make is that we 6 really have people who are engaging in political debate in a
7 way that involves vehement caustic and sometimes unpleasantly
8 sharp language, as the New York Times v. Sullivan used.
9 Now, this speech is protected as rhetorical
10 hyperbole, it's protected as satire and parody and as the
11 expression of opinion.
12 QUESTION: Would this be a different case if the jury
13 had found that the allegations could be considered factual?
14 MR. ISAACMAN: It certainly would be a different
15 case. It certainly would be a different case.
16 We think that even in that situation, this Court
17 should find that these allegations could in no way be perceived
18 as factual as a matter of law, and in exercising its obligation
19 under Bose, I think the Court would have to do an independent
20 review of the record to determine that constitutional fact,
21 that is to say, that there was no actual malice in this case
22 because this can't be perceived.
23 Just as in Letter Carriers v. Austin, calling the
24 plaintiffs there a traitor to their God, their country, their
25 family, saying they have a corkscrew soul, saying that instead
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 8
1 of a heart they have tortured principles, was considered by
2 this Court to be rhetorical hyperbole, and not to be taken
3 literally.
4 Similarly, there's nothing in this ad parody that can
5 be taken as a statement of fact. And we're in an unusual
6 situation where the jury has made that determination for us.
7 So we now know that even this jury, which should never have
8 been allowed to consider this.
9 QUESTION: Well, do you think that finding by the
10 jury has opened for this Court to consider again de novo?
11 MR. ISAACMAN: No, we don't think it is. We don't
12 think it is because --
13 QUESTION: I thought you were suggesting that in the
14 First Amendment context, we'd have to consider those issues
15 again.
16 MR. ISAACMAN: Justice O'Connor, I suggest that in
17 the First Amendment context, when a determination is made by a
18 jury that's adverse to speech, and when a jury finds that the
19 speaker made statements that could be construed as statements
20 of fact and were knowingly false, then it is incumbent upon the
21 Court to take that review for the purpose of protecting the
22 speaker. And that's what the First Amendment says, that you
23 have to protect the speaker.
24 QUESTION: You think Bose is a one-way street, then?
25 MR. ISAACMAN: Your Honor, I do think it's a one-way
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 9
1 street. Bose is intended to protect the speaker, it's not
2 intended to protect the emotionally distressed interest that
3 the State is seeking to protect in the area of intentional
4 infliction of emotional stress or in the area of libel. And
5 not only that, but we have a situation where there hasn't been
6 an appeal from the determination in the jury, so that's res
7 judicata yet.
8 QUESTION: This is all matter that isn't really
9 directly involved in your case. I mean, you have a favorable
10 determination from the jury.
11 MR. ISAACMAN: Yes, sir, that's correct.
12 Now, going on, we not only have the example of Letter
13 Carriers, but we have the example of Greenbelt v. Bresler where / 14 the plaintiff in that case was accused of being engaged in
15 blackmail. And the Court said that that can't be taken
16 literally because that was just intended to describe his
17 negotiating position, and that is hyperbole.
18 And we have ample lower court precedents on the
19 subject, such as the Pring case, which was a Penthouse article
20 about a Miss Wyoming which attributed certain sexual activities
21 on her part, and she sued for libel, intentional infliction of
22 emotional stress, and other causes of action. And the Tenth
23 Circuit, after an adverse jury determination to Penthouse, the
24 Tenth Circuit reversed and dismissed that case, saying that
25 that's rhetorical hyperbole. That article couldn't be
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 10
1 perceived as describing actual facts about the plaintiff in 2 that case, or actual events in which she participated. Same
3 finding that the jury made in this case.
4 And the Court then went on to say that since it's
5 rhetorical hyperbole and protected by the First Amendment
6 against a libel claim, it's also protected against an
7 intentional infliction of emotional distress claim which there
8 was called outrage under Wyoming law because the same
9 constitutional defenses apply.
10 And earlier this year in the First Circuit in the
11 L.L. Bean v. Drake Publishers, the Court there said that parody
12 is protected speech, and even though the plaintiff in that case
13 complained about the sexual parody that occurred of L.L. Bean's
14 Catalog, that was protected speech and the case was found in
15 favor of the speaker in that situation.
16 Beyond that, Jerry Falwell as a public figure should
17 not be permitted to evade the First Amendment limitations that
18 have been set forth in New York Times v. Sullivan, and many
19 many other cases with respect to his claim for an allegedly
20 injurious falsehood. The California Supreme Court recently,
21 through Justice Mosc, determined in Blatty v. New York Times,
22 that where the gravamen of a complaint is allegedly injurious
23 falsehood, it doesn't matter what you call your claim, because
24 the First Amendment covers that area.
25 QUESTION: Mr. Isaacman, what the New York Times rule
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 11
1 provides is not an absolute protection, but what a knowing
2 element, an element of specific intent to create a falsehood.
3 It doesn't give an absolute privilege to state falsehood. It
4 just says the falsehood is okay unless there's an intent.
5 Now, here we have a State Tort that is specifically
6 an intentional Tort. There must be an intent to create the
7 emotional distress, so it really is not quite the same category
8 of opening up that you're making it out to be. It's just the
9 issue is whether the intent element is enough to provide a
10 major exception from New York Times is also enough to make a
11 major exception for purposes of this tort action. Isn't that
12 right?
13 MR. ISAACMAN: Justice Scalia, we have a lot of cases
14 including New York Times v. Sullivan, including Garrison v.
15 Louisiana, and say it's not the intent to cause harm. It's not
16 the hatred, it's not the ill will, it's not the spite that the
17 First Amendment is directed at. It's intent to cause harm
18 through knowing falsehood or reckless falsehood. Garrison v.
19 Louisiana is a perfect example.
20 QUESTION: I understand you can draw the line there.
21 But all New York Times says is if you state falsehood with
22 knowledge of the falsehood intent to be false, the First
23 Amendment does prevent it. All I'm asking you is why can't
24 that principle be extended to say you can cause emotional harm
25 to your heart's content, just as you can state falsity to your
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 12
1 heart's content, but where you intend to create that emotional
2 harm, we have a different situation.
3 Isn't that a possible line?
4 MR. ISAACMAN: I don't think that any reasonable
5 reader of any of the speech that has occurred in the cases
6 including New York Times v. Sullivan, Garrison and all the
7 other cases that have come down, Letter Carriers I gave as an
8 example, could ever say that the speaker did not intend to
9 cause harm.
10 When you say something that somebody has a corkscrew
11 soul and has tortured principles for a heart and is a traitor,
12 who can believe that person doesn't intend to cause harm.
13 People intend the natural consequences of their actions. And
14 they intend when they say something critical, they intend that
15 that's going to cause some harm or some distress. And that
16 speech has to be protected, or all we're going to have is a
17 bland, milquetoast kind of speech in this country.
18 QUESTION: That may well be. My only point is New
19 York Times, it seems to me, doesn't speak to it. New York
20 Times says intent is okay, is enough to get you out of it.
21 What you're saying is, this kind of intent shouldn't be enough,
22 intent to cause harm shouldn't be.
23 MR. ISAACMAN: That's correct. Knowing falsity may
24 be enough.
25 QUESTION: But even in the New York Times sense, if
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 13
1 what the asserted facts here were known to be untrue, I mean,
2 one who knew nothing about Mr. Falwell or anything about the
3 background could read this and think there might be some
4 individual that this was a factually correct statement about.
5 So that these are statements that were knowingly false, so they
6 really satisfied the New York Times standard in that sense.
7 MR. ISAACMAN: Justice Stevens, the response to that
8 is really that there were no facts asserted.
9 QUESTION: Well, I understand what your argument is,
10 but to the extent that there are factual statements, they
11 satisfy the New York Times standard because everybody knows
12 they're false, including the speaker.
13 MR. ISAACMAN: If you change what this article means,
14 and you say this article's capable of being interpreted as an
15 assertion of fact, then you've kind of set the stage
16 differently from what it is, and from what the jury determined.
17 If you say that in Letter Carriers, that the person who made
18 that comment was really saying --
19 QUESTION: Really, all I'm suggesting is pretty much
20 the same thing Justice Scalia is. I'm not sure New York Times
21 speaks to the problem we have before us in this case.
22 MR. ISAACMAN: It speaks in a sense that a knowing
23 falsity, a reckless falsity is required. And that requires
24 that there be a false statement of fact. And the cases
25 indicate that. Garrison indicates that. Letter Carriers
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 14
1 indicates that. Before there can be a false statement of fact,
2 there has to be a false statement, and without a false 3 statement, there can be no false statement of fact.
4 QUESTION: Well, that gets us back to Bose and 5 whether we have to reexamine this statement for ourselves to
6 determine whether it's a factual statement. 7 MR. ISAACMAN: Well, that brings me back to my
8 response, Justice O'Connor, that if there were an adverse
9 determination to the speaker, this Court would have an
10 independent obligation to examine.
11 QUESTION: I don't think Bose spelled it out that
12 way. I don't read that necessarily into Bose. So you may be
13 asking us to move on to another step beyond that case.
14 MR. ISAACMAN: Well, the only thing I would say is 15 the only case I saw that dealt with that is Brown v. KNB
16 Corporation, a Connecticut Supreme Court case decided 17 August 18, 1987. And my reading of that case is that the
18 independent review goes one way and it goes to review the 19 adverse determination against the speaker. It doesn't go to
20 review a finding that there was --
21 QUESTION: I suppose that Connecticut case isn't 22 binding on us.
23 MR. ISAACMAN: That's correct. That's correct. 24 QUESTION: Well, even accepting what the jury found,
25 that there was no reputational injury here because there was no
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 15
1 believable fact asserted, for you to win, you have to say that
2 opinion or parody is never actionable, even though it's done
3 intentionally for the purpose of inflicting emotional distress.
4 That's your proposition, isn't it?
5 MR. ISAACMAN: Well, Justice White, my proposition is
6
7 QUESTION: Isn't it, or not?
8 MR. ISAACMAN: No, no. As you stated, Your Honor,
9 no, it isn't.
10 QUESTION: What is it, then?
11 MR. ISAACMAN: Because what that leaves out is
12 opinion or parody that does not contain anything that can be