SOUTHEASTERN INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA

In cooperation with The Seminole Tribe of Florida

INTERVIEWEE: Josie Billie Robert Mitchell INTERVIEWER: Dr. Harry Kersey

DATE: April 25, 1969 SUMMARY

Dr. Kersey interviews both Josie Billie and Bob Mitchell with particular attention to the education of Billy Conapatchee, Billie's father, and to the breakdown of tribal law, family structure, morals, and religion which resulted from transcultural con­ tacts with white men. Josie Billie was for twenty­ six years the Miccosukees' medicine man until he converted to Christianity and attended the Baptist Bible Institute in Lakeland. His contributions to the interview are hampered by his age and the lan­ guage barrier. Bob Mitchell give his impressions of the cul­ tural problems faced by the Seminoles, discusses Stanley Smith and relates his attempts to acquire land in Conservation Area #3 for the Miccosukees. Mitchell has worked closely with the Florida Indians and was instrumental in founding the Seminole In­ dian Association of Florida. INDEX

Baptist Bible Institute (Lakeland, Florida), 5-6

Billie, Jillllllie, 8, 19-20

Billie, Josie, 1-2, 5-6, 7-8, 12

Billie, Ingraham, 19-20

Conapatchee, Billy, 1, 3-5 education, 9, 15-16 farming, 14-15 gasoline sniffing, 16-17

Green Corn Dance, 19-20

Hanson, W. Stanley, Sr., 31-32

Hendry, Captain Francis A., 4-5 income (annual, of Seminoles), 18

Kersey, Dr. Harry (comments upon interview), 33-34

King, Willie, 7, 22 land (attempted aquisition in Conservation Area #3), 10-14

Marmon, Kenneth (BIA agent), 21-22 medicine men; bundle, 7-8, 19-20

Osceola, Joe Dan , 15 religion, 18-19, 23-24

Seminole Indian Association of Florida, 15

Smith, Stanley, 21-26

Tommie, Sam, 5-6, 18 transcultural contacts breakdown of tribal law and family, 17-18, 20-21 reservation influence, 27 tribal organization, 32 B: This is Josie Billie at Big Cypress Indian Reservation. I was born and raised from here. My daddy's name [Indian word (He was known to whites as Billy Conapatchee--ed.)]-and my mother's name [Indian word]. Both of them die. I myself and my sister, both sister and we still live [Josie also has a brother, Ingraham Billie, who is still alive.--ed.], but I got a lot of kinfolks ••• some who are, some don't. All my friend I know for Tamiami Trail. I know from Brighton Indians and Hollywood Indians. I know all them. I know every one of them but children. I don't know much of that, young people. That old people, I know them all.

K: When were you born?

B: I was born here for this side, Immokalee. Sixteen mile from this side turning down here. Sixteen mile from this side--Immokalee, and I was born down there. I was born and raised. Can't go off nowheres. Stay in ----, get married ---- M: I don't think he knows.

B: No, there nothing much now. Rather stay home. But one thing I knew they had. Got much more of that ____? I no take nothing. No give me just, give me the old-age pension and I stay home. Oh, I get along all right. Otherwise get sick by myself. Stay in hospital. White doctor help me out, but another thing I stay in my home. I want truly help--help me to my place. Long as I live I'll stay here. Born and raised from here, this place fourteen mile from here. That's.my tribe--Panther Clan. My father's tribe, Wind Clan. All my kinfolks, all most of them .... That's all I want to say. Then if you want to say, ask me and I answer. I don't understand much English ..

K: Do you remember your father talking about going to school?

B: My father's name, called [Indian word]. Somebody call for ... white people call him for Billy. Billy Conapatchee, that's what

*During the course of this interview some words were spoken in the Miccosukee language. These words cannot be adequately tran­ scribed. When such passages occur, they are transcribed as [ Indian words] • 2

they call it. And myself, [Indian word]. It's an Indian name. That's all I know, and my mother's name, [Irtdian word]. I got three sister. One of them [Indian word]. One of them for ..• no, she passed away not long ago.

M: We're not getting the information.

B: I just got one sister over____ That's [Seminole word], her name. Got a lot of children over there. Got two or three daughters. Two or three or four boys ·stay there.

M: He doesn't understand the questions you ask .••

B: I understand myself. I need help.

M: ... or else he doesn't want to give it to you.

K: Right. Fine. Let me try one more time--How did the Indians feel about going to school? When you were growing up, .did the Indians want to go to school •.. when you were a young boy?

M: Indians did, I can tell you that. He wants to find out how Indians feel about school.

B: Huh?

M: About school. This man is a teacher. You understand?

B: Yes.

M: And he'd like to find out about how your father went to school, and how it happened that he went to school.

B: You mean way back?

M: Way back.

K: Way back.

M: He likes to know.

B: Oh.

M: · You tell him all right about your father.

B: A long time ago my forefathers work themself. No sugar. No coffee. No have go to school. Stayed home, make it work for 3

farm field. Raise 'em corn, raise 'em sweet potatoes, raise 'em peas and pumpkin. - Like that. Eat 'em wild meat, bear and deer and turkey. Like that. - The strongest can have live hundred and ten years; some of them a hundred and fifteen years. Live that way, but now young people eat sugar and coffee and candy--sweet stuff, soft drink. All that wrong for our body. But die maybe fifty years, forty years--none live to seventy, I don't think. Get sick worse, worse all the time. Before, awhile back, my forefathers would live long. My daddy, my mother, she live pretty good. Strong as can be. But now my body is weak. All Indian people get weak, but we maybe raise young children. Used to it that like that'd be O.K. But now a lot of young, old people sick. All them sugar____ Some of them was all headache, awful, and backache still bad. So lie down in the bed. Two or three men lie down in the bed now, need help. But some Indian work with us. He take care .•• reservation not too good. [Indian words] work for Indian reservation and he's a good man, that way for pretty good. Some Indians think government sign for automobile, truck, like that. An Indian man for who is make a big boss himself, he keeping for truck. More of them have ____, but he bake himself. I don't like it that. I wanted to say that. I want to report on that. I want to tell about it now.

K: Help us out on this. Maybe you, in talking you can ••••

M: ---- I'll tell you when. K: Uh huh.

M: You don't know the whole story from A to Z •••

K: Well.

M: ---- coming down here .•• K: Uh huh.

M: ••• to talk to you.

K: You say you knew his father?

M: Yes.

K: Knew Josie's father?

M: Right. 4

K: When did he pass away?

M: That date I couldn't tell you. I don't remember.

K: Did he ever talk about going to school in Fort Myers?

M: Not to me he did not, but he mentioned old Captain Hendry got him to go to school. He was very much taken with him. As a young man he showed great promise and of course he went and he lived with him, and he sent him to school. And of course the tribal heads ... it was a different setup then than it was now-­ it was a much better setup then than it is now. This is an organized tribe recognized by the state and federal government, but compared to what the old tribal setup used to be it's a very lax organization.

K: Right, the old tribal setup was very rigid.

M: Very, very efficient. This is more of a popularity contest. But he was sent word that he had to come home. See, they did not want him to learn to read and write. The fact of the matter is they were going to kill him. And his.father, that's Josie's grandfather, prevailed upon them at the tribal council. His reasoning was in the first place he didn't want his son killed, and they sent word to him to.come back, and when he didn't come when he was supposed to then they just passed the death sentence on him. His father pled his case, and he said it's much better that we have one man that can read and write and he knows what white people do and he can tell us and we know what's going on.

U: Because of the treaties and so on.

M: That's right.

K: How long did your father live in Fort Myers? [This question is directed to Josie Billie.] Do you recall how long he stayed in Fort Myers?

B: Stayed about four or five years. What, he go to school three years. Just three.

K: That's when he lived with Captain Hendry?

B: Yes, about four or five years live over there. Captain Hendry, he raise 'em. Sent him in school. Good friend to him. But be­ fore that, Captain Hendry, he fight with Indian. Killed a lot 5

of Indian. But it was Captain Hendry, you see. And he good friend to the Indian. I saw him when I was a boy.

K: He came out to visit your father?

B: Yes, I saw him when I was a boy, and his wife. Were old. I quick. I don't know much what I saw him pretty well.

K: Did your father ever want you to go to school?

B: Yes, my daddy, my father tell me in the woods, hunt deer and turkey. He'd get us some, bring it back to 'em for to eat with it. His wife worked hard, Captain Hendry's wife's cooking, and they ate with it, stayed with it four or five years.

K: How old was he when he went over there? Do you have any idea?

M: I don't know. That was before my time.

K: There's a question in the newspaper accounts. She's been through all of the newspapers in Fort Myers for example.

M: Can't tell about the newspapers. I get my stuff sent to me ••.•

K: Do you recall how old your father was when he went over there? Did he ever say how old he was when he went to live with Captain Hendry?

B: Oh, I don't know how old he go with his hunting. But he's a strong man, and somebody don't like it go to school. That's why they kill him. Kinfolk go over there and talk to him and come on out, is married by my mother. And my sister, Lee, she's older than me three years. And I was born and we got twelve -children, one mother. My mother die. Twelve.

K: Did any of the children go to school? Did any of your brothers or sisters go to school?

B: Uh uh. I'm not going to a school. I getting old. When I'm sixty years old, I got to go Bible institute from Lakeland. Stay 'em two years and then never go back. My wife, she was sick. I can't go back. I am sixty years old going to school, but not children's school. Bible school.

K: Did Sam Tommie go with you?

B: Bible school. Yes. 6

K: Was Sam Tommie over there at the same time?

B: Yes, help me do good. You know that I'm not understanding much English, but help me pretty well understand talk. I understand for ... bad time on my ears. We had the mumps over there that ruined my ears.

K: So that's the only schooling you had then--when you went over to Lakeland?

B: That 1945, and I being baptized.

K: A whole group went over to Lakeland about that time, a number of Indians.

M: Four, I think.

K: I know Sam Tommie went over.

M: Yes, I remember Sam.

K: Josie must have been .•• who were the other two? Who else went over with you?

B: What'd you say?

M: [Indian words] Lakeland? Sam Tommie, [Indian word] Sam Tommie?

B: Yes, Sam Tommie. Sam Tommie and Barfield Johns and Billy Osceola and another man.

M: [Indian words]

B: Samuel[?] Buster. First time we go over there and stay one year. Never go back, and I stay another year. I come home. No go back over there.

K: How did you all get to go over there?

B: Huh?

K: Who got you to go over there? Do you recall?

B: What did he say? What did he say?

M: Who get you to go over there? Willie King? 7

B: White man? No--Indian.

M: Willie King. B: And Indian ---- M: Willie King get you to go over to Lakeland?

B: Before that Willie King, he's working twenty years, twenty-one years I go with him. But he's preaching. I hear him a lot. That's Willie King; he lived here with us twenty-one years.

K: He was a missionary?

B: He went back over there.

K: And he's the one that got you all to go? That's, that's very interesting.

M: The one that followed him •.• [Stanley Smith] Holy Moses!

K: Was the idea to get them to be lay preachers? Was this it?

M: I think so, yes. I think that was the general idea.

K: And send them back to the tribe .••

M: That's right.

K: ... and do some lay preaching out here instead of having mission­ aries.

M: Don't sell these, don't sell these people short on education. They're educated in everything they need to know to live in their country. So you have to look at it through the Indian side as well as the white man. I brought a friend of mine down here who is vice-president of Rollins College, and we spent three weeks ramming around here. He had the daughter of a family friend and she was -interested in getting some material for a book. And this man is Professor of Books up there and later, vice-president. He was also head of the Prang Publishing Company before he went to Rollins. Some of the Indians, they asked me ... they thought he was the most stupid man they'd ever seen because of the questions that he asked that were relevant to their way of life, you know. And this man [Josie Billie] was for twenty-six years head 8

medicine man .of all the Miccosukees. This man is also one of the finest •.• probably the finest medicine man they have today. He's good enough so that Upjohn bought his tranquilizer.

U: How did he become a medicine man?

M: Nine years of intensive training. They'll take so many boys that show an aptitude or an interest.

U: Who will--the medicine man?

M: The tribal council--the older men. They will teach them possibly for a year, and then they'll narrow it down to two or three, and then at the end of another year or two they'll select maybe one out of that who is really dedicated and interested and has a brain.

K: Are they still training medicine men at all?

M: There are none in training at the present time. The last one in training was his brother's son, one of the finest young men I know, Jimmie Billie, and that's a very tragic story. He died in Raiford. He hung himself. He shouldn't have been there in the first place. He was no criminal, but that's another story. It's a long story. Another Indian was bothering his wife.

K: Then Josie is the last of the medicine men?

M: Well, no. Frank Shore of the Muskogees. That's the Cow Creeks, you know. Seminole. These people are Miccosukees. A lot of Miccosukees belong to the Seminole Tribe because of their religious affiliation. Years ago it was considered that three quarters of all the Indians in the state were Miccosukees. Seminoles--there weren't too many of them. But now there's ••••

K: Of course these artificial distinctions between tribes ... are just that--artificial.

M: Just that, that's right.

K: I think the question is not whether they are educated or under­ educated in the formal sense •••

M: That's what I mean.

K: ••• but what's going to happen ten years from now is what I'm 9

interested in with these youngsters.

M: Well, I think I can tell you that. About ninety percent of them are going to school now. Years ago they did not want to go to school. Their elders did not want them to go to school. They had an inherent distrust of all white people, and I remember some of the Indians coming to me from Hobbyland over in Miami, all the way up to see me. It seems that the truant officers were after them to make the children go to school and they said they didn't want to, and if they kept up they'd go back in the Everglades and they'd never go to school.. And I can well under­ stand why they have a distrust of white people. I don't blame them. They've gotten a raw deal right straight through, and they're still getting it. I don't specifically mean these people, but I mean all Indians. My great-grandmother was a full7blooded Mohawk. They lost everything they had--the whole Mohawk Valley in northern New York. But they have a perfect right to feel that way. Now the young ones coming on, they're going to school, they have their white friends. If you'll stop into the trading post up here you'll see two or three Indian girls as neat as a pin, and they're dressed more or less as whites. Indian clothes, but .•.. See they're very personable young women, from our standpoint. It's a great change from years ago when the Miccosukee women would not speak one word of English. Not a word. Now the Cow Creeks, they would. Their women would. They were permitted to. But these people were much more distrustful. They hadn't had as much to do with the whites.

K: They were down here south of i:he lake and not in the main pattern of settlement up there.

M: Right. They were known as the Big Cypress Indians, although there was a lot of them back in the sawgrass all the way down to Cape Sable.

U: Do they still hunt for food here?

M: Oh yes. The boys, when they need meat they can go down here and get it. That's why I have always been so against. • • • Now I love to hunt; I hunt all the time at home. I mean, I don't hunt deer. I've seen too many, and I don't want to kill them. But fast-flying birds I love to hunt, but I've never brought a gun . into this country ever for the simple reason, long before the reservation was here I used to come down here and ram all around. I used to spend a month every year down here. Never missed a year for twelve years. Where they went, I went. I ate, I slept with them and went with them, but I never brought a gun. 10

K: This was a good piece of land to pick for a reservation, then?

M: Yes.

K: This was good land?

M: Yes, it was a good piece of land. But so many things, as I look back over it.... I well remember a man from the Bureau [Bureau of Indian Affairs] coming down here and another one from the Department of Agriculture. There was a very beautiful piece of land over here. This was gotten by a presidential order, procla­ mation, whatever you want to call it, and ..•.

K: But the Indians had been using this land before it became a reser­ vation, hadn't they?

M: Oh sure, they used all through here, There were three or four camps right around in here. But this was an especially fine piece of land, this Lardcan Strand up here. It's high, and hammocks in it, and a beautiful piece of land. So I went with this man. I was here at the time, and I went along with him, and he was very much taken with that piece of land, He said, III will go back and recommend that they add this to it." Well, he got back up there and he showed them the maps and everything. Then he sent word back that the powers that be were not going to take it because it made an irregular piece of land.

K: And irregular piece of ..• ?

M: Yes, yes. To me, of course, that was a criminal, stupid, irre--.

K: Right.

M: Now you couldn't buy that land, for love nor money--it's all in cattle pasture, and it's extremely valuable. But that's on a par with some of the things that they do. Then, of course, the Miccosukees, the tribe itself •.. you're not interested in this, you're interested in schools. I'm just blabbing on here.

K: Yes, but this is part of it. How can school be isolated from what the people are? I want to hear this. That's why I like to listen to Josie. Anything he has to say, don't feel that it's not germane because we have to go back to these things. We have to know it all really.

M: We had some communist trouble down here. For fifteen years I've tried through our organization, with the help of other organizations, 11

to get them a couple hundred thousand acres in Conservation Area #3. We finally got the whole thing set up. The governor agreed, the cabinet agreed. I have some ·friends up there in Tallahassee and we got the whole thing set up fine. Exclusion of all whites --no whites in this land. I received copies of letters sent to the various fish camps and hunting camps in there to move out, and I felt pretty good about it. But this attorney came into the picture down here and he told the Micc:osukees he was going to get everything from Lake Okeechobee south for them. Going .to get all of this, see. Well, he talked to me, and of course, anybody can help these people, I'm for him. But anybody that's not going to help them, I am not interested in. If it's a detriment to them, I'm strictly against him, hand, tooth, and nails. So I told him, "Well, you can't do this. It's another impossibility. You're not going to upset the whole economy of South Florida, so why tell these people something like that?" He said, "You'd like to see it?" And I said, "Yes, I'd like to see it. I'm for it. The land was theirs; it was stolen from them. Sure, I'm £.or you if you can do it, but I know better than that. I'm not that gullible." So well, to make a long story short, first thing I knew he was telling them that they weren't citizens--you see, that they were citizens of their own nation; that they were not citizens of the United States.

K: About when was this? When was he telling them this?

M: About eight or ten years ago. I've forgotten the dates. · But I know it made me so mad I didn't know what to do, and I told him. I said, "Now look, you're an attorney. You're lying to these people. They were all made citizens as of June, 1924, due to their war record." One thing, they had such a fine war record, if the whites had enlisted like the Indians you wouldn't had to have the first draft. So when you tell these people things like this that are not true, I don't go along with that at all. Let's keep it right on the table. So well, one thing led to another, and the Indians said they wanted him to try anyway, and he had done a world of research on this thing. I began to get suspicious of him. I wondered--they weren't paying him anything--! wondered why he was doing all this. Most white people don't do anything for white people, let alone do something for Indians, unless they get payed for it, you know. He [Josie Billie] wants to talk to you.

B: I want to say this: When I have to go to school, I mean Bible 12

institute, still this when I come back I working for preaching. I build 'em big house. White man had made a building. ' White man, he got money, payed on for that building. White man, he got money, payed on for that building. Buy some material, lum­ ber, everything, and had made a building down here for Big Cypress. We got six now. And when I finish 'em, but I got to go over Oklahoma going on a bus. Preaching over there--Oklahoma. Several church, different places. And I come back home, I preach to my people. Tell them all about God. And now today I'd like being a preacher, but getting old. That's one thing. Just stay home. But I got the building, work, a lot of thing to do. That help me out, for God, help me out, and I have to go everywhere. A lot of people, I'm a friend to him. He's a good friend to me. And I want to sing a little song. Then I quit talking. I quit speaking. Listen to this little song. Its your own song, not Indian for this: [interviewee sings] There's your old-time religion, there's your old-time religion, there's your old-time religion, and that's good enough for me. There!s your old-time religion, there's your old-time religion, there's your old-time religion, and that's good enough for me. Make me love everybody, make me love everybody, make me love everybody, and that's good enough for me. There's your old-time religion, there's your old-time religion, there's your old-time religion, and that's good enough for me. It will take us all to heaven, it will take us all to heaven, it will take us all to heaven, and that's good enough for me. Thank you. That's all I say.

K: Thank you, Josie. Thank you very much. Your story on the lawyer, Mr. Mitchell, and then we'll leave and let you alone.

M: He took a group of Indians who went to Tallahassee. For fifteen years I tried to set this thing up, and I got it set up for 200,000 acres of land with no whites. Every white's excluded.

K: This is the state reservation?

M: No, it's not the state reservation. This was an additional 200,000. The state reservation was at that time all under water, you know, and it was ... well, it was, of course, in that area. This land was also the same, but the main thing was that land was becoming more valuable, and these camps .••• From time to time, I would see this one place and another especially on the Deep Lake Road. People would buy up the land, and they'd order the Indian 13

off. And I used to tell them, "If you had been on this land seven years prior to 1939, I can get this camp for you, but you'll have to sign an application for it." That's the old law of tenure, you know.

K: Yes.

M: Squatter's rights. They wouldn't sign it. They had a tribal council meeting in my home. They wouldn't sign it, and finally I asked the head of the tribal council at that time. I said, "You have known me for a long time--many, many years; I think about 1916 when I was a young boy, a young man . . Don't trust me? "No we trust you all right, but we think they fool you, too." So he wouldn't sign those papers. My thought was to get them a piece of land, where when this time came that they were forced to move, they would have some place to go of their own. So he [the attorney] took these people and he went up there, and he just knocked that whole darn thing in the hat. He put in so many stipulations, or so many conditions that the state would have to meet, that they just blew up and forgot the whole thing. They just said, "Forget it."

K: Where would this land have been, this 200,000 [acres]?

M: Conservation Area 113. I was fairly disgusted, and madder than a hatter; and I suspected right then that he was a communist. Well, at a meet­ ing down on the Trail, a very important tribal meeting, one of the attorneys for the Department of Interior was down, and I took him out there to this meeting, and I asked him at the time --now I'm not going to mention this attorney's name, because if I do he'll probably sue me for libel, although if I took enough time I could prove it. There's no question about that. But don't get into a mess unless you have to. So I asked him, I said, "Why don't you take this man out of here? I suspect he's a communist. In fact I'm positive he is." .He just la~ghed. He said, "Sure he's a communist. We have a dossier on him a mile long." I said, "Why in the Lord's name don't you get him out of here then? He has spoiled this deal. Two hundred thousand acres of land that we had for them all set up, and now they're just through with it. They won't give it." "Well," he says, "he hasn't done anything we can arrest him for. We know where is. He was attorney for the Communist party when he was in Maryland." 14

So all in due time the tribe got wise to him, and they completely kicked him out of the picture. But not until he had taken a bunch of them to Cuba. You know he took a group over there?

U: Where? Are they still over there?

M: No. He took them over there.... He told them that they would be guests of the Cuban government, and it'd be a nice trip for them --wouldn't cost them anything. And I didn't know anything about it. When they got back, of course, at the council meeting I raised holy hell: "Now this is what you boys have done without knowing probably. Now why did you do this?" And I explained to them what communism meant as best I could. They said, "Well, we don't understand that. We just thought it was a nice trip, not cost us anything. We liked to see Cuba." Like children, you know. The man's out of the picture now. He hasn't had anything to do with them for some time, but it's a real bad thing.

U: Mr. Mitchell, do they do any farming here?

M: Not so much anymore. They have a few little plots.

U: Did they?

M: Oh yes, they used to. When I first came down here this was all under water. We used to go right from here to Immokalee in a dugout canoe every inch of the way. I've got pictures that prove it.

K: Mr. Boehmer was telling me it used to be an eight hour trip from here to Irnmokalee.

U: Why do you think they don't do some farming? Po they have their land ____?

M: Well, I don't know why they don't do it.

K: As a supplementary thing, is what we were thinking of.

M: I don't know why they don't do it. Every Indian camp always had an island or two that they farmed, you know. They had pumpkins and squash, and they had com, you know, and sweet potatoes. They were real smart about their sweet potatoes--used to 15

amuse me. The women would go out and they'd dig the sweet potatoes out. When we digged for the sweet potatoes, we'd tear the vines all up and harvest them, you know. 'They'd go out, and they snatched those potatoes out from under. Didn't disturb the vines at all. The result was they'd make more sweet potatoes all the time.

K: Tell me about your association. How many people roughly belong to it?

M: Well, I would have to look at the file to tell you. It used to be much larger than it is now. Actually, at one time we had several thousands of members, and some of them were scattered all over the United States. At the present time it's been quite inactive due to not having very much to do for these people. Now, I've been to Tallahassee a number of times in the last year or so, but for the most part they've been getting along pretty good. They've had good leadership and men who are dedicated, like Barret and like Maxon [Eugene Barrett and Kenneth Maxon, BIA superintendents at the HollyWood Seminole agency.] down there. And another thing, the Indian leaders have been young men who understood our ways, like Joe Dan Osceola. Now Joe Dan, I think, lacks one semester of being a Georgetown University graduate. Buffalo Tiger is one that has a brilliant mind. He taught himself to read and write, and he is a sharp, smart boy. They're getting along so much better. But recently we've tried to bring some pressure to bear to get this thing through so they could have oil leases on that thing, you know.

U: Do you think the young people will stay on the reservations once they're educated.

M: I don't think they will. I think that the majority of them will. •••

U: For jobs?

M: What is there for them here? If you get an education ... now Joe Dan is elected head of the tribal council [president of Seminole Tribe of Florida, Inc.] and Joe Dan has got a good job out of the thing, and it pays him to stay there. But ..•.

K: But even he moved to Hollywood Reservation.

M: That's it. There's nothing at Brighton. There's not much social life there, and a young man that goes to college •••• Here's a boy right here, Dan Osceola. I've been trying to get him hooked up with somebody, some organization, and help him finish his 16

school, and he wants to finish. I think just before I left Orlando a woman up there, who is the head of an organization, told me that they were considering making a project out of it. I said, "Well, this boy is deserving, and I think his marks were passable. I don't know if he was a straight 'A' student, but he wants an edu--."

K: Who was this?

M: Dan Osceola, Henry Osceola's son. He's been in the marines for one hitch, and he's a good boy. I don't know how smart he is academically, but if he wants an education he ought to have the chance to get it.

U: What do you think the main diet. is of most of the people here?

K: Well, I think we can check on that just more by observation now, because it's changing.

M: A lot of it's our own diet when they can afford it.

K: It's store diet.

M: You know, one thing that bothers me and has for years is this darn gasoline snuffing. This boy here _____ this morning came here to me, and of course I've known him since he was a baby. He said, " I'm hungry. You help me?" I said, "Well, I won't see you go hungry." And of course, all the time he had his face up. I said, "What's your problem? Snuffing gasoline?" He came here, and of course I have to get up early when I'm home, and I wake up early here, but I don't get up. So I'm trying to get a rest, as well as see these people.

K: This is vacation time?

M: Well, not exactly, but I get a rest. I'm in business up there, and I have a lot of pressure, and when I'm home, why, while I rest, then I want it to be a little different. [He] came here, and he went back there, and he had a coat, a pair of pants on. Went back there and stuck his head under the faucet. I mean stuck his head under the faucet back there and soaked his head, and then wiped it with his coat and shook himself off and looked around. He came on over here to me. "You were snuffing gasoline. I can smell it all over every­ thing," I said. "What are you doing snuffing that stuff like 17

that? You know it can ruin your lungs?" Course its already ruined him. His face twitches all the time. He told me, "Well," he said, "my sister kicked me out. I'm hungry." I said, "Well, I've got some groceries here, but I don't bring too many. I bring enough so when I leave, I leave what I bring with me. But I'll give you some money, and you go get yourself something to eat. Then you go back and talk to your father." So I took him back up there and had a chance to see his father, but I'll talk to him. You're right, you're right--all kinds of problems.

K: Yes, these problems are growing, and these are the kinds of social as well as educational problems you have to combat.

M: I see these people as they were under tribal law~ There was no trouble about things of that sort. There was no trouble about illegitimate children. It just didn't happen, and when it did somebody got knocked off and everybody knew it, and that was all there was to it. Today while they've got religion, you find illegitimate children. Now, a very nice young girl where we stopped yesterday--a very pretty girl, too, very pretty--I talked to her. She's half-white. I asked her. I said she knew me, but I didn't know her. Of course they grow up, and I don't see them. Get away from them. She told me who she was, and I still didn't know her. I said, "Who was your father?" She said, "I don' t know. " And so I said--well, I figured right away her father was a white man, of course. I asked her who her mother was, and she told me. She said, "You do something for me?" I said, "Sure, if I can." She said, "I married this boy on Big Cypress. He don't like me anymore. I'd like to go back and live with him, but he doesn't like me anymore. He's a friend of yours. You know him. Will you talk to him for me?" Well, that's strictly none of my business, and under tribal law the way it would be, I wouldn't open my mouth.

K: Tribal law would have taken care of that?

M: She never would have been in that fix in the first place, but I am going--! want to see him anyway, and I'm going to talk to him. But here's a real pretty girl. I mean, she is an exceptionally pretty girl. You'd look twice at her at any rate. And no husband. Was staying down there with these people, and they've got to support 18

her. Of course, tribal law is such that, you know ••• but I don't know. It's a pathetic picture. So many of them are so desper­ ately poor.

K: Yes, the poverty. We were checking yesterday on annual incomes of the parents of the children, arid it's amazing that they can even survive, truthfully. What did we find the annual income in most ..•

U: About 1,000.

K: .•. houses? About 1,000 dollars a year, and most of that was of the welfare payments.

M: Sure. Do you know what it is for the average Indian in the United States per capita?

K: I haven't •.•.

M: Three hundred dollars per year.

K: Is that it? Well then actually these people who are drawing 1,000 off of state welfare are about some of the ..•.

M: I've got. .• they're in gravy. Now come down here with a little money. When I leave home I take what I think I'll need, and I leap in there in that Scout with enough gasoline, because I've got credit cards with gas company. But I land home so broke that it's pitiful.

K: About how many of the people now are Baptist out here? How many are really Christian on the reservation? Could you make any guess?

M: Well, I'd say most of them are. Of course, that don't stop their drinking. Awful a lot of that recently down here. It's too bad.

K: And on Hollywood, too. In talking to Sam Tommie, he left me with the idea that not many were.

M: Not many were Christians?

K: Yes. Which it just didn't square away with my own information on that.

M: I've known Sam for many years. 19

I think the majority of the Brighton Indians and the majority of the Big Cypress Indians here on the two reservations are Christians.

K: That was my impression.

M: Some of the older Indians, they may go to church occasionally, but they still believe the old way.

K: How about the Green Corn? Is it held?

M: Well, it was held last year--I believe the year before. But you know, of course, my idea is not entirely the idea of the Baptists. I'm not a Baptist. I'm an Episcopalian. But in fact I don't care what you are. It's what you are that interests me. Not your religion. We're all trying to get to the same place. You want to go in a Ford or a Cadillac, and I want to go in a wheelbarrow, it doesn't matter. We're all trying to get there. But the boys down on the Trail ••• you know, Ingraham [Ingraham Billie]. You know, one thing leads to another. But after Ingraham's son died in Raiford--and he didn't need to, he was no more criminal than I am.

U: What did he do?

M: He didn't do anything that I wouldn't have done under the right circumstances.

K: That was the one, this fellow was fooling around with his wife?

U: Yes, did he kill the man?

M: He did. He got in a fight and killed this man. I don't know that I would have done the same thing, but I might have. But at any rate he tried several times, told him. He said, "I love my wife. I have a family. You don't bother me." And I don't think he lacked many years of being a full-fledged medicine man. But at any rate he couldn't stand it up there. He said that he had no idea, no conception of the wickedness of the white men that he had to associate with up there. If he had said that he had killed this man in self-defense, he would have gone free. He wouldn't do it. He said he'd be lying if he did it. Their religion's against a lie, so he took the rap rather than lie. But Ingraham moved up here [Big Cypress], and Ingraham always had the Corn Dance, you see--left and came up here, and the Indians all went. William McKinley Osceola was the other medicine 20

man, and they went .•• that section went down there, and this section, the western section ...• Ingraham lived at Turner's River, and their Corn Dance was down not too far east of Turner's River. I used to go to it. So at any rate William McKinley Osceola died, and after Jimmie Billie died, shortly after that, Ingraham moved up here. I think it broke his heart, really. He was his oldest son and one of the finest men. A fine looking man. My wife and I were always crazy about him. He was a gentle­ man all the way through. But anyhow, they didn't have the Dance .. Some of the Indians down there after William McKinley died asked me if I would talk to him about it. They felt that he wasn't using the medicine bundle, you know. And the Indians were suffering. Several Indians killed themselves, committed suicide, and several of them died. Henry Cypress dropped dead over at the Little Cypress camp. All of these things, and the Indians weren't getting along. They attributed that to the discontinuation of the medicine bundle. I talked to him [Ingraham Billie] and I talked to Frank [Frank Shore] and of course I've talked to Josie about it. Josie feels like I do. It's all the same. It's not a heathen rite. It's strictly religious. It's a different way of worship, that's all.

K: Well, I get in what you're telling me that you really think that they were better off under the old way. That under the old tribal law and the old tribal structure people knew where they were and who they were and what they were, and the kind of ethical relation­ ships that they had with other people.

M: If a girl's husband died--she had children--by the time the mourn­ ing's over, they would get a husband for her. Someone to take care of her. They took care of their people. Now I'll let you draw your own conclusions. Do you think it's better to have a family and strict morality, or do you think it's better to live with anybody you want to and have illegitimate children there with nobody to take care of them in many instances? I just saw an instance last night. I went to see this family that had somebody, boy, I didn't know. Asked the girl where her husband was. She said, "There." I said, "Where's your old husband?" The father spoke up. "Not treat her right. She got rid of him. Listen, just got him last night." Now how long are they going to last? I mean there's no marriage thing there. But the point is, it was almost impossible for them to live under tribal law and have the old setup they had with the white encroachment upon them--civilization upon them.

K: Right. Well, for example, in most of this, from just what I have 21

gleaned from talking to people and reading about it, I see a lot of the problems with the children coming from a breakdown of the old family grouping.

M: Kids, children, some of them have no respect for their elders. I saw this at the Corn Dance one time. A group of young people came from Cherokee, North Carolina. They were as neat as a pin when they came into the Dance, and I knew them all. Two or three of them came over where I was, at my camp there, and the Dance was going on, and they started making fun of their elders. They started laughing, you know. And I told them, "You better watch your Ps and Qs. These old people are smart p.eople. They do things the old way, but that's no cause for you to laugh at them. If my children laughed at me I'd spank them" They kept it up till somebody spotted them. They took them up there and fixed them up and they didn't laugh anymore.

K: Well, it used to be, of course, when a man and a woman lived in the camp, this extended household, and there was all sorts of social influence on the child to rear the child.

M: That's right. That's right.

K: And now we put them in small nuclear households. This is sort of a result of adopting at least the form of the white man's way of living--a man and a wife and the kids--and then what happens if the husband dies or something? The.rest of the family isn't around to raise the children to show them the right way.

M: Well, one thing that this missionary, Stanley Smith, did in here •... I came down here. The agent at that time was a Pueblo Indian. He was a very fine man, and a very, very keen, smart one.

K: Who was this?

M: Ken Marmon.. That fellow could write a lease, or fix legal papers, I'll tell you. But any rate, he lives in Fort Myers. Well, years ago I lived in Fort Myers. Right after I got out of college, I went down a few years afterwards. I was in St. Louis at the time. I had a scholarship up there and I finished and I stayed at Horti­ culture School Park for about a year and a half. Then I came back to Florida and I went to Fort Myers and I lived____ Any rate, I knew conditions and things there. Ken lived there and I was living in Orlando, and he called me up one night and wanted to come down there. So I went down, and he told me what was going on. He said, "This man [Stanley Smith], I just found out that this man has been running one of our 22

government motors which he took out of a government truck and put it in his own car. And he's been running for three months and we didn't know it. He's got the Indians down there eating out of his hands. Frankly I don't know what to do about it." I said, "Well, I know what I'd do about it. I'd just declare the reservation off limits to ·him." This was a Creek now, Creek Indian. Well, Ken couldn't do it. Apparently he had too strong a following. As time went on he'd [Smith] send a young man here away to work. He'd send them down to Copeland--send .them here and send them there, and once each week he'd come down here. He'd tell all the people here, "You don't punish your children, I'll do it when I come down here." And brother, he whipped. some of them over with a strap unmercifully. Well, that's not Indian ways. They don't punish that way. So he got in trouble with Moses Jumper, and Moses beat the pants off of him. Well, the next time he had occasion to come down here he got three men to hold Moses and he worked him over with that strap and liked to kill him. Ken had the strap and he told me about it, and I talked to Moses about it later. But the man •..•

K: This is Betty Mae's husband?

M: Betty Mae Jumper's husband. Yes, Betty Mae Jumper, [nee] Betty Mae Tiger. And so at any rate I'd come down here and I'd see this girl. Then I'd say, "Where's your husband?" And they wouldn't open up at all. [Indian words], "I don't know." I told ____ that now, "I know you a long time since you were a little girl. You know, [Indian words], don't lie to me." And here or there I found out he'd sent them away when he got a bunch of them pregnant. That's the preacher now.

U: Elmer Gantry of the reservations now.

M: Jeeper Creepers--which burned me up, you know. I could see what was going on here, and, well, finally they got his number, but he had already done a lot of harm. He got in a fight with somebody down in Miami, and the guy put him in the hospital. I guess they were both in the hospital. And the man hit him, broke his jaw, and when they X-rayed it they found a piece of knife blade in it about that far, some Indian out in Oklahoma put in there years ago and still in there. But he was tough.

K: And he was the Baptist missionary?

M: He was missionary follower of Willie King. Now Willie King was 23

a good man all the way through. This man [Smith] was a holy terror. Of course, the Micco­ sukees down the Trail, they decided to kill him. That was all right with me. But you know, after all, I am a Christian of sorts--put it that way--so I don't make reservations. But when somebody asks me what do I think about killing somebody, it might be all right with me, but I can't tell somebody to go out and kill him. You know what I mean? I'd feel like a murderer myself. Although if they did it, I would have that smug feeling of well, golly, that's that. But at any rate, they already appointed somebody to do it, so when I went back up there I stopped in to see him. Now this was strictly to salve my own conscience, you see. And he had his house barricaded. The windows were boarded up and all. So I stopped and I told him. I says, "Stanley, I've come up here not to do anything for you, but I'm doing this for me. You go into their country, they're going to kill you, and as far as I'm con­ cerned that would be just fine. But I just want to warn you. Now I can go home and feel that I have done the right thing."

K: Where was he living?

M: He was living at Hollywood. You know, the church has got a little hunk of land right smack in the middle of that reservation.

K: Oh, he was there where the Crenshaws's [Genus Crenshaw] live now?

M: Yes, in the middle of it. But jeepers creepers, that guy was a holy terror.

K: Why did the other church start?

M: The one up there?

K: Why are there two churches? Why did this come about? This is just another form of political polarization?

M: Yes, a little disagreement here and there, you know. And some of them don't like Sam Tommie. I was talking to him last night. He don't want to say any­ thing to me. But I talked to this one and that one. Frank Billie ••• I think some of them, for some of them they don't know any reason or other. I've always liked Crenshaw very much myself, but some of the other Indians for some reason or other don't. Of course, I don't see eye to eye with him. I asked him one day down here--I heard them preach up here, and of course this went against the grain of me. I usually go to church up there, but it's strictly none of my business. I don't 24

interfere in any affairs whatsoever. Our organization is to help these people, not interfere with anything that comes about. If somebody asked me to do something, if I think it'll help, might do it, and if I don't I just say I'm sorry, I can't do it. But I heard this preached up there in that sermon. When they first took up religion they were very zealous and extremely devout. A new thing, and they were just all for it. Well, they were re­ ligious anyway, you know. Very religious. [I heard it preached up there that] if your family will not accept this religion, you leave your family and come up here on the reservation and live. Now I know of about eight or ten girls who promptly left their husbands, came up here on the reservation. Well, I couldn't help. I was here a lot. I was a great deal at that time. I couldn't help but see these things, and pretty soon this girl would be living with this Indian up here strictly against tribal law. They'd have raised the devil with them, you know. But they're out from under tribal law, you see. I was in Immokalee at the time, and I had occasion .•.• A friend of mine is a cattle man there, and he 1.s very active in the church. We were having a cup of coffee ••. I go to see him occasion­ ally, an elder in the church. I told him. Pretty soon they had a lot of illegitimate children here. Well, I don't approve of that either. I guess I'm old-fashioned, and I don't appreciate the love-ins and the immorality the young people have today. What's the use of having a family setup if you can go on out here and sleep with this one and shack up with this one; you get tired of that one. And just recently up at the university they had a woman up there ••• I can't remember her name. I'm getting too old.

K: The University of Florida?

M: Yes.

K: Thompson?

M: Yes. I would have kicked her out of there, and if I had--I sent three boys to the university up there, and if I'd had to listen to anything like that what they had to, I'd have yanked them out of there. I guess it's entirely the way you're brought up. Now perhaps she's got just as much right to her opinion as I have, but I don't have to like it. At any rate, I asked this man, "Why in the world .•• ?" Now this is what I listened to at the church. I said, "Do you approve of this kind of thing in your church?" "No," he said, "We don't." He said, "You could be a great help to that young missionary. Why don't you talk to him?" 25

I said, "Yes, why don't you go to hell. That's your church. You're the deacon in it. Now you know what's going on. Don't ask me. I don't interfere in their affairs. It. hurts me what I see _____ in other families broken up." Well, that was strictly Stanley Smith's doing, that mission­ ary you know. So I don't know what to do.

K: Did he get out of here?

M: Oh yes, they finally got him out, but not until he had done a great deal of damage, you know.

K: And he was more or less the one that drove the wedge down that started two churches, you think.

M: No, that was before. You mean here on this reservation?

K: Well, there are two on each reservation.

M: No, I don't think he had anything to do with that. That was be­ fore--he was before the two churches, before their time.

K: Now that was strictly an internal thing that developed after him.

M: That's right. But he used his religion as a whip. When I got after some of these Indians that I knew real well, why they said, "Well, he tell me that he's God's prophet, and if we don't do so-and-so, he'd have God punish us." I said, "Well, that's a lot of bull. In the first place God doesn't punish that way. You're doing something now . that .you know you shouldn't do. What happens to you if you live under tribal law and you do this?" He said, "Nobody hurt us now." I said, "No, but you don't do right .either."

K: Well, actually he was sanctioning these illegitimate liaisons of all sorts.

M: Sanctioning it? He was one of them.

K: Perpetrating it?

M: He was perpetrating it.

K: I would believe almost anything of missionaries because ..••

U: If any, Elmer Gantry of the reservation.

M: I can sssure you its true. I don't know where he is now. He was 26

a very articulate, convincing speaker, you know.

K: And he was a Creek that came in from Oklahoma?

M: Yes. One of their hereditary enemies, you know.

K: When did he come in? Do you recall the general time period which he ••. ?

M: Oh, I can't recall. I remember reading a little piece in the paper that said there were no .missionaries here before 1945. He put that in the paper one time. Of course that was a lot of bull, because Willie King had been here, and Willie King was a good man. He was a good, honest, sincere missionary. He did a lot of good.

K: Was he from Oklahoma, too?

M: Yes.

K: He was a Seminole from Oklahoma?

M: Yes. This man, when he came here he didn't have a checking account, and when the investigators investigated him he told me he's got twenty thousand dollars in the bank. How'd he get it? Of course he charged all that he baptized--he charged for a long time there. He charged them a dollar a month. And he'd come down here and these poor people didn't have a •.. you know, extremely poor. Very little work here, and he'd take up a collection. Well, you know where the collection went.

K: Right.

M: But they are very religious, and they have been put upon so many times. I've seen Josie •.. like this man had him running. all over making medicine for his family. And I talked to that man. He was a phony. I could spot him right off like that.

K: Well, this is true. I think that maybe not so much here as on the reservations that are easier to get to, people feel like its open season to go down and do good, you know, and ••••

M: Well, if they sincerely want to do good, that's one thing. But the good most of them want to do is for themselves.

K: In their own conception of good for the Indians.

M: Yes. The main thing is for the Indians to differentiate between 27

someone like yourself and some of these ne'er-do-wells that blow in here and soft soap them up and do a few things for them-­ butter them up if you want to call it that. Like a . young Navaho comes to my house, he's a pretty keen individual. He said, "This man is buttering the Seminoles up." I said, "You don't think he's sincere?" "No," he says, "He's no good." Well, I didn't know whether he was or whether he wasn't, so I couldn't express an opinion, but I rather think that he was right.

K: That's interesting, because I don't know. Just looking at this, I tend to feel that reservation life is a stultifying experience for people.

M: I think it is.

K: That once the Seminole moved onto reservations and called them reservations--it might .have been the land they've been living on for years--once they got .•• I'm thinking of the Brighton people now. I think the people at Brighton were on their way to being acculturated--to moving into the main stream of things. And in the thirties they slapped them on this reservation and took the starch out of a lot of these people.

M: I know it. I know it.

K: And I think the Brighton people, for example, would have been much further along if the government had let them alone and had not slapped them on the reservation. And now they are reserva­ tion Indians, many of them, in the worst sense of the word, that they expect something and its something that the government I don't think can deliver.

M: No, I don't think so either.

K: I think a lot of promises have been made that they'll never be able to keep.

M: Well, I don't have too much faith in that. We've got the best government in the world, but it still stinks in a lot of respects when it comes to its handling of Indian affairs. That's my idea. up there is trying to help, another one's trying to tear ----them down. Of course, this thirty-eight square miles down here that they grabbed out of the Everglades for this airport, that's fantastic. I went down there with the tribe at this doing. I got an invitation from the Dade County port authority, and I went. 28

But I was with the Indians on that thing; I don't knowwhat my feelings .•••

K: That'll change the whole ecology of the 'Glades.

M: Why, the whole thing. Of course, conservation groups are trying to stop it, but as Bob said, I hope they do. As Bob said, "We can't stop it; we don't think you can stop ·it .either." I said, "I don't think so either. I don't think our organ­ ization ... all the Indian organizations I don't think can stop it." I had dinner with the council and Phil Ford. They had a big barbecue there, but it was hotter than the devil at John Poole's camp, and this Ford was the commissioner of transportation for the United States. He flew down here from Washington, a real personable, smart guy, and he went on to say, · "Well, you ·take advantage of this now. There'll be development here. This land will be immensely valuable. The Indians could ride with the bunch, take advantage in every way that they can to make money on this thing." And I said, "Well, as far as I'm concerned it would be a heck of a lot better if they do away with the whole shebang here and leave it alone." He said, "Well, you can't do that. It's going in," and I guess it is, like Alligator Alley [Florida State Road #84--Naples to Ft. Lauderdale], you know. We needed that like I need ten new hats. But of course that was a political deal. I went to Talla­ hassee with a group of Indians to see if we couldn't stop it, and Billy Kidd, who is administrative advisor to the governor--and Bill Kidd was a friend of mine----! said, "Look, what are you guys doing running this road through here? The Tamiami Trail is lousy. Why don't you four-lane that? That really needs to be done." He said, "Well, obviously we can't do anything about this political deal." I found out why it was. Farris Bryant and the company he was in at Jacksonville, they owned a lot of land in there, see, and that developed.

K: You go out and buy your sawgrass and then have a road run through it.

M: To me I'll probably never have a lot of money for the simple reason that I wouldn't stoop to something like that, damn it. Now my wife always thought Farris Bryant and his wife were such nice people. She played bridge with his wife in Ocala, and he was a Sunday school superintendent. Of course, when I found out about this, I said, "Don't you talk to me about Farris Bryant. I have had a bellyfull of him." 29

K: Of course, one might have taken a clue from the way all of the roads managed to get funneled to Ocala during the administration.

M: Sure, sure.

U: There are a lot of state roads up there that lead nowhere.

M: Oh yes, but I was too stupid to realize that.

K: Yes, all of the roads seem to swerve into Ocala there.

M: Sure.

K: Why don't you ask him about our good friend, Reverend Frost. I doubt if anybody would know about this.

U: Yes. You know, in Clay Mac Cauley' s works he mentioned, and also in Nash's [Roy Nash] works, he mentioned a Reverend Frost having been in Immokalee or somewhere in that area.

M: In the 1870s.

U: 1870s, but Maccauley mentioned that when he was there in 1880- 1881, that Frost had been a minister to the Indians in the 1870s, and then, of course, Nash mentioned it. I thought at first he was an Episcopalian because I had read somewhere where he was, and he wasn't.

M: I don't think so.

U: He's not. He wasn't Methodist either, and it led me to think that perhaps he was just a ••••

K: Self-ordained.

M: Probably. Probably so. One man that did a lot of work down here was the dean of the St. Luke's Church, his grandfather. You know, I'm getting old, I can't even think of the dean's last name.

K: The St. Luke's Church where?

M: In Orlando. For Pete's sake, I know him as well as I know my ••••

K: I keep thinking of Spencer.

M: No, that's Captain Spencer. No, no, this isn't him. No, this was before Spencer's time. I forget the man's name. He's the dean 30

of my church. I go to church occasionally.

U: . Has he written a history on the ... ?

M: No.

K: He was a bishop. He took over the Immokalee •...

M: ••• Gray.

K: Gray, he took over the Immokalee ....

M: Yes, Dean Gray. He was dean of our church up there. He was all down through here, and he worked with Dr. Godden, who was a medi­ cal missionary whose place is down here.

K: This was after J. E. Brecht and the others down at Immokalee ••••

M: Yes.

U: [W. Stanley Hanson's daughter, Marion, seems] to think a lot of land over there was taken and still is being taken away from the Indians. Some of it is her housing development outthere.

M: Well, they took the whole state. They grabbed the whole thing.

U: Recently.

M: In the last, recently?

U: Yes.

M: Well, the Indians don't want anything over there~

U: It was the land that they were living on now, she said out there.

M: Where, at Immokalee?

U: No, I guess north of Fort Myers. Kind of a refuge area for wild­ life and so on. The whole ecology here ••.•

M: Caloosahatchee?

U: I've forgotten the name of it·. It's an Indian name, and she said the whole ecology, you know, would be [upset].

M: She could be right. 31

U: They broke away from the reservation and were living there.

M: I don't know. There are a lot of Indians at Naples.

U: They're renegades.

M: Well, I wouldn't call them renegades.

U: No, the ones that were living out there now, and they were being run off. They had nowhere to go.

M: They could always come back here.

K: Right, always come back to the reser--.

M: Josie, what Indians live in Fort Myers? [Indian words] Fort Myers?

B: Oh, there's call 'em [Indian word] Fort Myers. That's before some, before many call it ....

M: Yes, in Fort Myers now. Nobody?

B: No.

M: What I thought.

B: No.

M: I don't know anybody who lived there. Now that didn't right a bell.

B: John ---- there's Stanley Hanson. M: Yes, a long time.

B: There's a lot of people over there [don't] stay with it. One month, two or three months. Just come back at home. But when Stanley Hanson passed away and his wife, they say, "No, there not much to see." People all come on back out. That's one man for it that's friend to the Indians and he's dead.

M: Yes, he was one of the best friends they ever had.

B: That's right.

M: They'll never have another one like Stanley. He was tied in with their history here for years. They used to send and get him. If he didn't go to the Corn Dance they'd send and get him. He acted 32

as their advisor on all matters pertaining to white people.

K: When did he pass away? That recently?

M: No, it was some time ago. Let's see. Gosh, I can't remember. He was my closest friend. I still can't ••• how long ago Stanley die? It was '64 I think it was.

B: I don't know what year.

M: About ten, twelve years ago.

K: That's interesting, that each reservation setting seems to have its own set of advisors and confidantes.

M: Well, he was advisor to all the Miccosukees. That's before the Miccosukees .•• see, they always had tribal organizations, but neither was recognized by the federal or state government. Now the ones that are recognized by the federal and state government are strictly •.••

K: They're legal entities.

M: Yes, that's all.

K: They're just chartered corporations really.

M: That's all they amount to, but they are recognized and if people would really •.. well, I hate to say this, because I think Joe Dan is a smart boy, but the old men of the tribe are the ones that had the brains. That's the reason they headed up the thing.

K: Of course, they were dealing in issues of equity and morality and religion.

M: Exactly.

K: He's dealing in contracts and means and financing.

M: That's right.

K: Maybe they're making progress financially and economically along some lines, but what has happened to the fabric of the culture?

M: Going to hell in a bucket, I'll tell you. 33

K: This is Dr. Harry Kersey of Florida Atlantic University. The foregoing interview was held on the Big Cypress Seminole Indian Reservation on April 25, 1969. Present were Josie Billie--his age was approximately ninety years at this time--Mr. Robert Mitchell of the Seminole Indian Association, Mrs. Eleanor Mooney, and myself. A number of points should be noted from this interview. First and foremost Josie Billie confirmed the fact that his father had attended school in Fort Myers and had lived with the family of Captain Francis Hendry; that he had spent approxi­ mately three years there going to school. This does not seem to square away with the accounts, the archival records that we have, the newspaper accounts and the Pratt Report accounts, which tend to lead us to believe that Conapatchee did not attend school for more than one year at the most. However it should also be under­ stood that a man of Josie Billie's age might have some memory loss in this regard. Secondly, I would think the most important item on this tape [is] Mr. Mitchell's connnents regarding the breakdown of the fabric of Indian social life under the impact of moving them on to reservations; the coming of religion which uprooted the old ways of life but really offered nothing substantive in return; and the accompanying breakdown of the family patterns on the reservations. Thirdly, and perhaps most important to those of us who are working with Indian education today, he gave me at least some insight into the real problems existing on this reservation and other reservations. As far as the children are concerned--what do they believe? What way of life are they to follow? What pattern is there in the life of these children when they see all of this disintegration about them, when they see that religion really isn't that vital to the lives of their parents? If they go to church, they attend regularly, but then you have the glue sniffing and the gasoline sniffing and the excessive alcoholism. You have the extreme poverty. You have, as I mentioned on the tape, this sense of being a reservation Indian in the worst sense of the word, of living with this uncertain expectation of something that is going to happen for you, that the government is going to ultimately come through with a great amount of money and somehow this will be your economic and social salvation. And yet we all know that this may or may not be the case depending upon the size of the final land settlement for the Seminole Indians, in this state at least. [From] all of this one might just generally conclude that the largest problem that educators have today, be they Bureau of Indian Affairs people or outside educators like myself and the others who are working with me, would be to become acutely aware of the social 34

problems of these people and what effect they are bound to have upon the learning experiences of their children; both the home experiences and the formal educational experiences in the schools; to see what this means in terms of restructuring a program for these children, of providing additional social services as well as providing meaningful educational materials, and perhaps most importantly to examine the issue of whether continuing education in a reservation setting is really the way to help these people in the long run.