29 autumn-winter 2019/HesaMag #20 Special report 20/33 : a view from the other side of the window

Prostitution, migration, urban planning, social status and working conditions: the new book by -based historian and writer Hans Vandecandelaere covers a wide spectrum of themes. Don’t Ask Me Why is a study of the prostitution business and the working conditions affecting female sex workers in Belgium, including foreign nationals.

Interview with writer Hans Vandecandelaere

Interview by Mehmet Koksal ETUI

Why such interest or special focus on and the windows on one hand, to the digital prostitution? phenomenon of prostitution by webcam on the other. You need to apply a separate meth- Hans Vandecandelaere – My book’s title is, odology to some degree for each branch, funnily enough, En vraag niet waarom (Don’t but, when it came to the windows, I devel- Ask Me Why). I think that’s the big question oped what I call in my book the "twee-mi- that every sex worker keeps getting asked: nuten-klant-strategie", which means acting "So, why do you do this job?" In the end, she’ll as a client for the two minutes needed to make just reply with "Stop asking me why, will you!" it into the worker’s bedroom before openly re- I get the same treatment because journalists vealing the nature of my "visit": "I’m actually constantly ask me the same question: "Why called Hans, and I haven’t come here for that. did you write this book?" (Laughter). Any- I’ve come about my book." way, to be serious for a moment, when I wrote my first book on migration in Brussels, I was But weren’t the prostitutes afraid? You have already doing my research in Rue d’Aerschot to admit, seeing a client like that is a bit odd. in Brussels (the red-light district). Although Did you have to pay for these "visits"? I had been intrigued at the time by this sub- ject area, my approach to it was clearly no dif- No, they weren’t scared, just a little intrigued. ferent from that of many other researchers, For the girls in the windows, I’d say that, 80% inasmuch as I wouldn’t speak with the sex of the time, I did have to pay for the interview, workers themselves. So, this means you opt because let’s not forget that they conduct their for the main, traditional research methods, business in a really expensive rental sector. such as going to speak with the police and For a 12-hour shift in Rue d’Aerschot in Brus- health-sector professionals, but you are less sels, they’ll pay 250 euros a day. En vraag niet waarom: likely to dare to have a conversation with the Sekswerk in België (Don’t sex workers themselves. As I said, this subject You mean that the prostitute pays the Ask Me Why: Sex Work In started to fascinate me as far back as eight 250 euros for the 12 hours to the landlord? Belgium) years ago, and I just thought there should be a by Hans Vandecandelaere, much more anthropological approach, inter- Not to the landlord, no – to the window published by EPO, Brussels, 2019 viewing the sex workers as a journalist right operator. French version to be published in where they work, "on their beds" so to speak. March 2020 by 180° éditions We also find out in the book that the In fact, you describe a somewhat unusual nationality of the women behind the method in this book. Can you tell us a little windows has changed a great deal over bit about how you managed to persuade the years. In the past, there seemed to have them to talk to you? been many Belgian and French prostitutes. But the arrival of foreign nationals in the The book provides an insight into all branch- 1990s brought a diversity to the face of es of the sex industry, from window prostitution. There’s a lovely turn 30 autumn-winter 2019/HesaMag #20 Special report 21/33

of phrase in the book about the windows that she is a prostitute. Why is that? Because entails maintaining those provisions of crim- being mirrors that reflect the economic when you have a contract of employment that inal law that are absolutely vital, such as crises prevailing in the women’s countries refers to prostitution, the prostitute’s boss au- measures to combat human trafficking and of origin. The shifting nationality of window tomatically becomes a "pimp" in the eyes of , but the remaining features prostitutes therefore seems to depend the law, and he then runs the risk of prose- of the profession can be transposed into the on which countries are most affected by cution. The other viable option for prostitutes existing legislation, that is to say, employ- economic turmoil. is to adopt self-employed status, but then the ment legislation. Therefore, nothing actually same problem will arise when they have re- needs to be invented. Yes, I think that gross national product also course to the third-party services of, say, a plays a significant role in the prostitution in- web designer or an accountant – they all will Isn’t that already the case right now in dustry: the higher it is in the host country, the be treated as benefiting from prostitution, Belgium? Aren’t we already in a system greater the likelihood that this country will and that’s illegal. where the public authorities, in particular in attract prostitution. And that’s where you’ll , are in fact trying to codify the find a link between prostitution and econom- Who are the winners and losers in this situation by compelling people to register? ic crisis occurring elsewhere. The migration system? we saw in the 1990s was significant in terms What the City of Antwerp is doing in the of window prostitution in Belgium. Prosti- The system definitely has its losers. Let’s start Schipperskwartier (the red-light district) is tutes in the early 1990s were still mainly Bel- with the sex workers themselves: without for- simply organising the district and ensuring gian, but by the end of the decade the whole mal status, they cannot gain access to social the quality of the bars. And so the operators situation had been turned on its head, with or medical insurance cover. Then there are are kept on a tight leash, and they can’t af- the majority of them now foreign nationals the bona fide operators who must live in con- ford to have a criminal record or deviate from mainly coming from eastern Europe and the stant fear of prosecution. I think that bona the rules. However, in relation to undeclared Balkans, as well as Latin America and Africa. fide operators have a really important role to work, the City of Antwerp reacts with: "that’s Then there was another shift in the noughties play in guaranteeing the workers’ well-being. none of our business. It’s a federal matter, and towards home-based prostitution and mas- That said, you might well ask yourself how it’s up to social inspection services to enforce sage parlours. many of those women actually want a recog- the law". nised social status. To my mind, a vast num- We acknowledge this shift and the arrival of ber of them would reply that they are happy What can the local authorities do to improve a new population on the prostitution scene, with the system as it stands because it allows working conditions? In your book, for but where did the Belgian prostitutes go? them to earn "black" money. And that’ll do example, you clearly explain the change that Did they disappear off the face of the earth? nicely, thank you! took place locally in 2011 in Schaerbeek, Did they stop touting for business? the Brussels municipality which decided to Is it really black money (undeclared income)? introduce the requirement that all bars must I just don’t know. Good question. apply for a certificate of compliance – an Often it is, yes, it’s black money, but that’s not idea that was originally developed 10 years Prostitution is generally considered to be always the case everywhere. In the world of earlier by the City of Antwerp. illegal in Belgium, but you explain in this the webcam, for example, the workers can book that this isn’t the case. The illegality download forms and sheets from the online First of all, there’s no governance for the lies in the exploitation or promotion of this platform for submitting their tax returns. other sectors of prostitution. Anything to do occupation, and not in the prostitution itself. Workers in the pornography industry also with local governance is confined to manag- operate under artist status, but a major part ing street or window prostitution. The back- It’s actually the facilitation of prostitution of the business clearly remains undeclared. ground to this is that, after the migration in that is unlawful. And so, in Belgium, we have Personally, I’m all in favour of making this the 1990s, the districts with windows had an abolitionist law which says that you can sector much more transparent through par- completely outgrown their original perime- lawfully be a sex worker. But while this isn’t tial decriminalisation. ters. There were many instances of nuisance illegal, any third parties engaged in the busi- but also, to some degree, problems associ- ness are breaking the law and are liable to Would that mean legalisation and putting ated with human trafficking. The red-light prosecution. The rule is that money cannot be an end to this abolitionist policy? districts were expanding. The municipal earned by one party on the back of the pros- authorities decided to take measures to re- titution activity of another party. This situ- No, not legalisation. Prostitution has been duce the public space and regulate it more ation has repercussions for the status of sex legalised in the , and in Germa- effectively, and Antwerp was at the forefront workers because while a prostitute may enter ny too. But legalisation implies a desire to of the change, delineating the zone of activ- into a contract of employment, she has to play create – or indeed invent – brand new laws ity and inventing the compliance certificate. around with fictitious job titles, such as "mas- just for the sake of formalising this single To be issued with a certificate, the workplace seuse" or "waitress", so as to avoid divulging profession only. Decriminalising prostitution in question was required to cover a certain 31 autumn-winter 2019/HesaMag #20 Special report 22/33

surface area in square metres and to have more than sexual predators who objectify Yes, and my theory is that the prostitution sanitation facilities, hot and cold water, etc. women. That doesn’t make sense, because sex windows are currently in crisis. They now ac- If you compare, let’s say, work premises in workers offer a service and aren’t a commod- count for a mere 17% of business, although the Schaerbeek from before to now, conditions ity to be sold. Then their second argument professor did tell me that this finding doesn’t have improved hugely. is that freedom of choice doesn’t come into as yet afford us the right to talk of crisis, be- play, because it’s always the woman’s precari- cause a second study is needed to facilitate a You also refer to French tourists who ous situation that leads her into prostitution. comparison. Nevertheless, the tremendous regularly come to Belgium in search of I personally promote a more subtle theory. In competition from prostitution on the inter- prostitutes. It’s interesting to read how terms of freedom of choice, yes, socio-eco- net or internet-dependent markets, such as France applied a firmer policy under Nicolas nomic development may be lagging behind, the escort sector and massage parlours, are Sarkozy’s presidency, which resulted in and certain pressures or cultural factors may leading to the gradual absorption of the old French "punters" regularly making the trip imply the absence of absolute freedom, but it’s markets for prostitution, including street and to Belgium. a little too easy to say that prostitution isn’t a window prostitution. free choice, when so many people in all kinds Sarkozy himself launched the measures to of sectors could be described as working Is it conceivable that, 20 years down the criminalise the clients, with France witness- against their will. These women do it because line, there will no longer be any visible ing the overhaul of the legislation in 2014. this job allows them to earn more money and prostitution in European towns and cities? Sweden was the first country to introduce a to create other freedoms for themselves. Be- "neo-abolitionist" law. The Swedish govern- sides, talking with the prostitutes makes you I really don’t know, and this is precisely what ment is still spouting nonsense now, claiming realise that there are, in fact, quite a number people are wondering. Are we going to be part that prostitution figures have fallen massive- of middle-class women among them, and of an implosion in the wake of a crisis in the ly, when in fact there are no substantiated fig- therefore extreme precariousness is not the window prostitution business and internet ures, and the prostitution scene there is con- primary cause of their entry into prostitution. competition, or are we going to become in- siderably more dangerous than elsewhere. creasingly intolerant of visible prostitution, But what drives this middle class to engage as is already the case in many Belgian towns, What can be said about the prostitution laws in prostitution? especially in Wallonia? Let’s not forget that worldwide? Wallonia has watched virtually all of its win- Very often, you’ll meet people who already dows disappear: only six windows are left in Most countries apply prohibitionist laws had jobs in eastern Europe, but these jobs Liège, and there’s a small district in Seraing. which criminalise the three parties in- were in a traditional, poorly paid sector. As far as the windows are concerned, I am volved, namely the sex worker, the client These women will have come from the mid- very pragmatic, and I feel that each neigh- and the third-party facilitators. The United dle classes. What drives them is quite simply bourhood should be looked at individually: for States, Russia and the countries of the Mid- the desire to make more money and to have some of them, there may well be a legitimate dle East apply this system. Even Thailand social mobility. So, we have to stop stereotyp- interest in closing them – here, I’m thinking – a country with a highly developed sex in- ing prostitutes: the very existence of a mid- of Saint-Josse near the Gare du Nord in Brus- dustry – follows this model. Europe, for the dle-class prostitute shows, amongst other sels where conditions have become really most part, operates a pro-abolition system, things, that prostitution does not come down harsh due to human trafficking, not to men- like in Belgium. The neo-abolitionist move- to stereotyping. That’s what I found so fasci- tion the fact that it is a very dense urban area. ment is gaining popular momentum due to nating about prostitution, because you stand But there are also other neighbourhoods with the efforts made at European level by a large at a crossroads between various contempo- these windows that should be left alone, such lobby campaigning for the European Com- rary issues affecting our societies, such as as in Antwerp or , areas that present mission to criminalise the clients. Countries issues of migration, ethics, feminism, urban absolute proof that several urban functions such as Sweden, Norway, Iceland, France planning and social issues, to name just a few. can coexist. Antwerp’s Schipperskwartier has and Canada apply this system. By contrast, become a fantastically upmarket, ultra trendy we then have the legalisation system oper- One figure reported in the book, which neighbourhood to live in and yet, right on the ating in Germany, the Netherlands, Greece I found very interesting, and which emerges doorstep, prostitution is happening without and Turkey. from the work conducted by Assistant any bother or fuss. The future of the towns Professor Stef Adriaenssens at KU Leuven and cities will also be galvanised through the Advocates of abolitionism will tell you that (Catholic University of Leuven), values improved management of working conditions prostitution isn’t an occupation, that it isn’t the prostitution business in Belgium for all of their stakeholders and residents – work, it’s exploitation. at 870 million euros, 42% of which is which also involves having discussions with attributed to the escort and home-based those at the lower end of the social scale.• The first argument that abolitionists use is prostitution market and only 17% to the that prostitution is a form of violence against prostitution windows. That’s a huge figure, women, because they see men as nothing don’t you agree?