First Session, 39th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Tuesday, October 20, 2009 Morning Sitting Volume 5, Number 1

the honourable , speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

First Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of State for the Olympics and ActNow B.C...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Steve Thomson Attorney General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Children and Family Development and Minister Responsible for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens' Services and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and the Public Affairs Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Community and Rural Development...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources...... Hon. Minister of State for Mining ...... Hon. Minister of Environment...... Hon. Minister of State for Climate Action...... Hon. Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for the Integrated Land Management Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Health Services...... Hon. Minister of Healthy Living and Sport...... Hon. Minister of Housing and Social Development...... Hon. Minister of Labour...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Kash Heed Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Official Opposition...... Carole James Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Claire Trevena Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz Director, Hansard Services...... Jo-Anne Kern Acting Legislative Librarian...... Peter Gourlay Legislative Comptroller...... Dan Arbic ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Hon. Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Hon. Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Harry Bloy Black, Hon. Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Donna Barnett Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... Cadieux, Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... –Point Grey Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Comox Valley...... Don McRae Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Coell, Hon. Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta North...... Guy Gentner Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Juan de Fuca...... John Horgan Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Thompson...... Terry Lake Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Thompson...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna–Lake Country...... Norm Letnick Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay East...... Hon. Bill Bennett Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hansen, Hon. Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hawes, Hon. Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nechako Lakes...... John Rustad Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall Heed, Hon. Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview New Westminster...... Dawn Black Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Peace River North...... Pat Pimm Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Hon. Iain Black Lake, Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... Hon. John Yap MacDiarmid, Hon. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... Lana Popham McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Hon. Kash Heed Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Stewart, Hon. Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Hon. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Herbert Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, Hon. John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna...... Hon. Ben Stewart

Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 35; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Tuesday, October 20, 2009 Morning Sitting

Page

Introductions by Members...... 1277

Introduction and First Reading of Bills ...... 1277 Bill 16 — Body Armour Control Act Hon. K. Heed

Orders of the Day

Committee of the Whole House...... 1277 Bill 10 — Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment Act, 2009 M. Sather Hon. B. Penner

Report and Third Reading of Bills...... 1286 Bill 10 — Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment Act, 2009

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 1287 Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture and Lands (continued) Hon. S. Thomson L. Popham B. Simpson G. Coons V. Huntington G. Gentner D. Donaldson

1277

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2009 Gang members are out on our streets and in our neighbourhoods, hiding behind the added protection The House met at 10:03 a.m. of bulletproof vests, as innocent bystanders remain unprotected and vulnerable. I am proposing new legis- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] lation so that individuals wanting to possess or sell body armour will now need a permit or licence to do so. Prayers. We recognize that there continue to be legitimate uses of body armour. Individuals whose employment Introductions by Members roles require them to wear body armour, including law enforcement officers and many employees of the security Hon. K. Heed: Good morning. I would ask the House industry, will be able to possess body armour without a to please join me in welcoming two guests today who permit. have dedicated their careers to making our streets safer Those not exempt will have to apply to the registrar in British Columbia. of security services, provide reason as to why they need First, I'd like to welcome RCMP Supt. Bill McKinnon. to possess body armour and undergo a criminal-record Superintendent McKinnon has led and continues to check. Individuals and businesses that contravene the lead one of B.C.'s busiest municipal detachments for Body Armour Control Act will be subject to serious the city of Kelowna and now uses those leadership skills sanctions. to benefit all of British Columbia as head of the B.C. Mr. Speaker, I move that this bill be placed on the Association of Chiefs of Police. orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting Also in the gallery today is someone who is a vital part of the House after today. of Vancouver's charge against crime, and I make mention of him. He and I joined policing at the same time. Insp. Bill 16, Body Armour Control Act, introduced, read Brad Desmarais of the Vancouver police department's a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the gang and drug section is joining us today. day for second reading at the next sitting of the House Please join me in giving a warm welcome to both after today. Superintendent McKinnon and Inspector Desmarais. Orders of the Day Introduction and First Reading of Bills Hon. M. de Jong: Good morning. I call, in Section A, Committee of Supply — for the information of members, Bill 16 — BODY ARMOUR CONTROL ACT ongoing debate on the estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands — and in this chamber, committee Hon. K. Heed presented a message from His Honour stage of Bill 10. the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Body Armour [1010] Control Act. Committee of the Whole House Hon. K. Heed: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. BIll 10 — PROTECTED AREAS OF BRITISH COLUMBIA AMENDMENT ACT, 2009 Motion approved. TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on Hon. K. Heed: I am pleased to introduce the Body Bill 10; C. Trevena in the chair. Armour Control Act. . The introduction of this bill ful- fils one of the legislative commitments outlined in the The committee met at 10:13 a.m. throne speech. [1005] On section 1. As you recall, on February 13, 2009, the Premier announced a seven-point plan to combat gang and gun M. Sather: It gives me great pleasure to speak to Bill violence. One component of that plan was to tighten 10, Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment controls on the use of body armour. Act, 2009. This current bill introduces those controls by making it Section 1 refers to Det san ecological reserve. What I difficult for criminals to possess body armour, providing wanted to find out first from the minister…. This one is police with the authority to seize body armour from those close to the town of Smithers and is some 5.8 hectares in not authorized to possess it, and setting fines and jail time size. There's an interesting part of this that has struck my for those convicted of an offence under this statute. attention. It says that "det san" is the Wet'suwet'en name 1278 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 20, 2009

for juniper, as it contains a regionally rare example of of-way to accommodate what we believe is a power line, old-growth juniper. although I'm subject to correction on that. Because of the For those of you that may know about juniper, it grows pre-existing right-of-way and the rights or opportunities in two different forms in our province — a spreading for selective tree removal to maintain that right-of-way mat form plant and a tree form. The berries, although for what we believe is a power line, those types of uses not edible, apparently are good for your…. If you've got are not consistent with an ecological reserve. So it was an outdoor toilet, it's a good thing to put in. I'm told it's determined that it would not be appropriate to include a natural composter. that right-of-way in the ecological reserve. [1015] But what I really wanted to know from the minister is M. Sather: Of this 5.8 hectares then, what is the juxta- if he could describe a bit about this old-growth juniper position of the right-of-way? Is it along one side? Is it and exactly why this is significant. through a part of it? Where is it?

Hon. B. Penner: This particular property was brought Hon. B. Penner: I'm being shown a small schematic to the attention of the Ministry of Environment by a which indicates that the power line right-of-way is number of local ecologists a number of years ago. The located on the western fringe of the area to be designated ministry assessed the property and agreed with those as an ecological reserve — again, assuming that the who had contacted the ministry that there were some Legislature approves the legislation. unique values to be protected here. TheC lerk reminds me, as well, that maps are available The member has asked some specific questions around for members to peruse in the Clerk's office. There may juniper. I noted a particular use that he has found for juni- not be a map of this ecological reserve, however, I am per. I can advise the House that "det san" is the Wet'suwet'en advised by my staff.B ut for the remainder or the balance name for juniper. This particular ecological reserve, should of the areas contained in Bill 10, I am told that there are the Legislature agree to pass this legislation, will contain a maps indicating what those areas look like, and those regionally rare example of old-growth juniper. are available for members to peruse at the Clerk's office. In addition, these 5.8 hectares that we're looking at protecting here in the form of an ecological reserve M. Sather: So just that I'm clear then. For a provincial also will protect rare and sensitive grasslands, shrub park, of course, we have legislation requiring a boundary lands and savannah ecosystems on a steep south-facing adjustment if a power line was to go through it. The slope. This particular ecosystem provides critical winter minister will recall the discussion we had around the and early spring range for deer and excellent habitat for Upper Pitt and a power line that a company wanted to moose as well as for resident and migratory songbirds. put through a provincial park there. I should note that the transaction to purchase this When the minister said that the power line would be previously privately owned land was concluded on inconsistent with an ecological reserve, do I understand March 31, 2008, and involved the acquisition of 5.99 correctly that an ecological reserve and a class A provincial hectares of land. If you're looking at the notes in the bill, park have the same statutory limitations, then, with you'll see we're actually looking to establish 5.8 hectares regard to boundary adjustments? as an ecological reserve. The remaining 0.19 hectares will [1025] be protected through a variety of legal encumbrances restricting what can happen on that remaining land. Hon. B. Penner: Ecological reserves are governed by a separate statute than parks and conservancies. There's M. Sather: Thanks to the minister for that elucidation. an existing law on the books called the Ecological First of all, I want to say that I'm a very strong supporter Reserve Act of British Columbia, and that governs what of our ecological reserve system in British Columbia. It's activities are permitted, or not, in ecological reserves. a higher order of protection and certainly does protect The parks and protected areas act governs what types many unique ecosystems in our province, at least one of of activities are permitted with respect to parks, conserv- which I have in my constituency. ancies and other protected areas in British Columbia. I just want to ask the minister, though, about the In both cases, if an area is established pursuant to legal encumbrances of the 0.19 acres, I think he said, or that legislation — either the Ecological Reserve Act or something of that nature. Why did that part have to be the parks and protected areas act — and is added to the preserved via that mechanism, whereas the rest of it is schedule to the act, the boundaries can only be adjusted done in another manner? by virtue of a statutory amendment brought here to the [1020] floor of the Legislature. In both cases, there are those types of restrictions — sig- Hon. B. Penner: For the 0.19 hectares I referred to nificant restrictions on what type of activity can take place. earlier, I am advised that there is a pre-existing right- But I think it's safe to summarize that with ecological Tuesday, October 20, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1279

reserves, the type of activity that's encouraged or permitted imagine it attracts a fair bit of summer heat and can be is even more restrictive than what's permitted in a class relatively dry compared to other areas, which opens it A provincial park. up as a grassland and shrub land, providing excellent For example, in parks we encourage public outdoor opportunities for ungulates to graze in that area — in recreation activities. We at times have built boat launches particular deer, but the member also mentions moose. and campsites and picnic areas. That would not be the I'm told that the primary motivation for acquiring this case for ecological reserves. particular piece of land is the existence of the juniper, which is where the member began his questioning, and M. Sather: I certainly concur with the minister that also the fact that it is this sensitive grassland-type eco- ecological reserves have…. I know the government tries system which, my guess is — and I'll stand to be corrected very much and is successful, when these are created, — is relatively rare at those latitudes and that far west in in making them have the least amount possible of the British Columbia. touch of humankind on them. This ecological reserve — the minister has said it has M. Sather: I'm going to have to consult the member a higher level of protection. If I understood him right, also because I'm not sure about that. I know that in the that would apply similarly, although under different Cariboo and in the Chilcotin there are, of course, a lot legislation, to how it would to a class A park with regard of grasslands. The minister will know that.I spent some to a power line. There's no power line there yet, but this time around Smithers, but I'm not exactly sure about the power line right-of-way is within the boundary of the rareness of it. Thanks very much to the minister for his ecological reserve, as I understand it. comments on that ecological reserve. Oh, it's not. Okay. Thank you very much. The minister is shaking his head. That clarifies that for me. It's not Section 1 approved. within the boundaries. The other point on that one of interest to me is that this On section 2. ecosystem provides critical winter and early spring range for deer and excellent habitat for moose and resident M. Sather: The first park — and we're still on parks and migratory songbirds. I just wanted to comment. I'm and ecological reserves — is Alice Lake Park, which is so glad to see the inclusion of songbirds in here. We're 6.8 hectares in the Sea to Sky corridor, which of course losing our songbirds in North America at an astound- is the Vancouver to Whistler route — a very well-used ing rate, so any habitat that we can preserve, especially park indeed. unique habitat like this, is a tremendous bonus to us. It says that the acquisition of this forested parcel on I wanted to ask the minister, with regard to preserva- the shore of Edith Lake, adjacent to the eastern boundary tion of this critical winter habitat: was there a need for of the park, fulfils a longstanding park management special protection of these species? I know moose and objective. I wonder if the minister could fill me and the deer are generally fairly abundant in the province, but House in on: what is the longstanding park management not necessarily in each part of the province. Was there objective that they have at Alice Lake that they're helping a particular reason in terms of preservation that this to fulfil? critical winter and early spring habitat…? I'm assuming that for songbirds, it's probably also spring and summer Hon. B. Penner: This is a situation where I think a habitat — fall perhaps. Was there a particular concern, picture or map is worth more than a thousand words for or was this more of a general type of…? me in explaining how this piece of property fits in the I know that when we form ecological reserves, there overall puzzle of the plan for Alice Lake Park. often is a real focus on a particular issue. In this case By virtue of the acquisition of this piece of land, which I'm thinking it's the juniper, and this other part is not so is about 6.8 hectares, we are securing public access and critical. I just wanted to find out whether there was any park protection for — it looks to me like — almost specific reason why that habitat needed to be protected half or certainly more than a third of the shoreline and for wildlife or birds. surrounding area of Edith Lake. Now, while Alice Lake Provincial Park is named Hon. B. Penner: The member for Stikine will likely after one particular lake on the map I'm holding in my correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is that in the area hands, there are at least four other lakes of note: Stump where this ecological reserve is to be established, it's Lake, Fawn Lake and Edith Lake. It's that last lake, Edith relatively rare to encounter savannah-like grasslands or Lake, where previously there was a significant chunk of ecosystem types. property, 6.8 hectares, that was privately held, roughly [1030] coinciding with the eastern boundary of Alice Lake This particular piece of land, as I noted, is on a steep Provincial Park. south-facing slope. Because of that attribute, I would [1035] 1280 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 20, 2009

I'm told that the management plan had been to try authority over all sides of Edith Lake, thereby making and secure public access to that eastern shoreline of sure we have the ability to permit recreation as well as Edith Lake. By virtue of this property acquisition and conservation initiatives. now, hopefully, the inclusion of this property in the park Previously that 6.8 hectares was privately owned. It was and protected areas act and the schedule thereto, we will forested land. I don't know if there were harvesting plans be accomplishing that management objective for Alice or proposals. But given the nature of the forest in that Lake Provincial Park. area, it could have been valuable from a forestry perspective. It's far easier for me to demonstrate this visually than By virtue of B.C. Parks acquiring that land, we'll be able verbally. If you see where the little yellow chunk is, that to manage it for both recreation and conservation. was the piece kind of missing out of the park — with [1040] your single-lens glasses. Anyway, that demonstrates, I think, fairly succinctly why B.C. Parks felt it appropriate M. Sather: Well, I can sympathize with the minister's to acquire that piece of land. That transaction was com- crisis over the raccoons. When I moved to British pleted…. I don't have the date when we acquired that Columbia from Alberta, I started raising some geese, and property, but it was something that we had hoped to do I thought: "Oh, those big geese could fight off a raccoon for a period of time. — no problem." Well, I soon learned otherwise and found a few feathers in the morning. I know about that B. Routley: I ask leave to introduce some students. kind of angst that raccoons can bring upon one. Thanks to the minister again. Leave granted. Now, there's a lot of controversy these days in our parks and a lot of conflict as the population rises, particularly Introductions by Members in the Lower Mainland, between recreation users and conservation objectives. The minister has said that in B. Routley: We have with us today a group of grade this park we're trying to achieve both objectives. 10 and 11 students and several teachers and adults I notice that it says, with regard to the parcel, that it with them — teacher Miss Carrie Craig from Queen connects Alice Lake Provincial Park to other natural Margaret's School. They asked some very pointed questions, areas to the east of the park's boundaries and to an exten- so we've got some up-and-coming MLAs. Please join sive system of mountain bike trails. Are those mountain with me in welcoming this fine group from our Queen bike trails, then, completely outside the park, or are they Margaret's School in the Cowichan Valley. inside and outside the park? [1045] Debate Continued Hon. B. Penner: Hon. Chair, I appreciate your indul- M. Sather: That's helpful — in part. I know that dif- gence. I've been able to access a different map showing the ferent parks…. I've been to Alice Lake, but I must con- park. fess it's been some time, and I don't recall specifically the For the interest of members, if you're ever planning to role of recreation in that park. With regard to the access visit any provincial park, including Alice Lake Provincial to Edith Lake — and perhaps even to the park more Park, you can visit the B.C. Parks website, which I find generally — does the management plan, then, have a to be a handy resource. You can seek out different parks strong focus on recreation and that would be part of by alphabetical order and click on that and print out a the reason that we would want or that B.C. Parks would brochure at your leisure. want greater access to Edith Lake? If you do that in the case of Alice Lake Provincial Park, you'll learn that the park is named for Alice Rose, who Hon. B. Penner: Like the member, it's been some was the first woman settler to hike and fish in this area, time since I've spent any recreational time at Alice Lake and that the park is surrounded by towering mountains, Provincial Park. However, I do recall that was the first dense forests and grassy areas. Four freshwater lakes time I felt angry at raccoons. I was probably seven years dominate the landscape, offering plenty of excellent old and had caught a number of small trout and had left family fun and adventure activities. them on the picnic table, only to find them disappearing, The member was asking about mountain bike trails. courtesy of some visiting raccoons. However, I digress. From what I can see on the map, there are a couple of trails There is a popular campground in Alice Lake that are designated for use — including mountain bikes, Provincial Park. I don't recall if there are established including one in the general proximity of Edith Lake. But hiking trails to Edith Lake. But I'm advised that all sides according to the map I have, they're not officially desig- of Edith Lake are forested lands. By virtue of the amend- nated as going into that previously privately owned area ment we're seeking here, we will be able to secure public to the east of Edith Lake. When this legislation passes, if access and B.C. Parks' ownership and management it's supported by the members of the House, then I guess Tuesday, October 20, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1281

it's possible that trails will be established more formally I do note that a couple of these trails seem to extend on the east side of Edith Lake. from or incorporate what's marked on here as a gravel One of the more popular trails, apparently, is the Four road on the map — not suggesting all of the trails are Lakes Trail, which is eight kilometres in length and takes on gravel roads but that some of them certainly seem to what is described as a circuitous route past all four lakes. stem from what's just simply identified on here as gravel Biking is permitted September 15 to May 1. Presumably, road, without any other name attached. that restriction is to try and avoid conflicts on the trails. Given those apparent restrictions on the time of use or It is my view that recreation and conservation can go the seasons of use for mountain bikes, I have to assume hand in hand and that they're not necessarily mutually that the people responsible for the management of this exclusive concepts. That's one of the benefits we have park on a day-to-day basis have seen fit to permit moun- with the B.C. Parks system. We do try to manage for tain biking at certain times of the year but not others. multiple objectives. Again, it's another example of the multiple use that you [1050] can find in our provincial park system. I think Alice Lake is one of those areas where, obviously, Again, we do try to encourage recreation. It's a healthy we are encouraging recreation. There are more than 100 thing for people to do, generally, if they can avoid fall- campsites that are enjoyed by many members of the ing off their bicycles and hurting themselves or hurting public, particularly families. other people due to encounters on the trail. But also, it allows us to restrict the type of activities Other activities the member may be interested in that that take place — for example, limiting the time of year Alice Lake Provincial Park is well known for…. In addi- when bikes are permitted on trails and also prohibiting tion to trout fishing, which is something I remember various types of activity that are prohibited under the doing with my father, I'm told that now canoeing and Park Act. We've already touched on that earlier, that kayaking are popular activities at lakes in the park. As there are significant restrictions on what type of activ- well, fishing and shellfish harvesting and the removal of ities are permitted in a provincial park by virtue of the other marine life is permitted but only where you have park and protected areas legislation. an appropriate licence to do so.

M. Sather: The minister mentioned that, asI understand M. Sather: I suspect the minister is absolutely right it, the mountain biking or cycling in general…. Certainly, that the timing of trail use is to try to minimize conflict mountain biking, by the sound of it, is restricted to the between users. fall, winter and maybe spring area time frame. Of course, The minister brought up an interesting facet, an on the west coast that's the time we have the most rain important facet of course, of biking or mountain biking, and the most amount of mud, which can lead to serious and that's the risk factor. It can be a spill, or it can be, deterioration in trails. as happened to a good friend of mine who is a very Does the park management plan for Alice Lake have avid mountain biker…. He's about my age, and he had any protocols, including enforcement provisions, to a heart attack during a mountain-biking expedition. So ensure that the trails are maintained in good condition there are, of course, a number of risks. vis-à-vis the use of mountain bikes and preserving the With regard, then, to preservation of the trails and other half of that two-pronged approach that we all want attendance to individual users, whether mountain bikers — that is, the conservation part? or others, that could become injured, can the minister inform the House as to what sort of range or contingent Hon. B. Penner: I don't have a copy of the park manage- or other management contingent there is for Alice Lake ment plan for Alice Lake Provincial Park with me here Park? in the House, but I would be surprised if the management plan got into that level of detail. Typically, they set broad Hon. B. Penner: I don't have that information here objectives. with me, and I don't have the appropriate staff for that. The day-to-day management of a park is something that's different and would likely take into account what M. Sather: We're aware that there have been cutbacks types of impacts are being noticed or not in the park and in rangers, in some parts of British Columbia at least. what changes are suggested. I would have to believe that Have some of those reductions in rangers been in the there is a reason why the brochure and the map, actually, Lower Mainland and Sea to Sky corridor parks regions? that I've been handed…. As I look at it closer, right on the map it's indicated in a couple of places next to the Hon. B. Penner: Again, I don't have that information little icon indicating somebody on a bicycle. It says here with me, and the staff who…. I should introduce September to May only. There must be some reason why Ken Morrison, seated to my right, and Peter Trotzki, to that restriction was put in place. my left or to the viewers' right. They work assisting us [1055] in defining park boundaries and legislative amendments 1282 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 20, 2009

generally, but they're not the staff in the ministry that by incorporating into the official name of that provincial are well positioned to answer questions around staffing. park a recognition of their elders' past involvement, and They deal with park boundaries and the like and legislative that explains the name. amendments. Now, exactly when these discussions were concluded or took place, I'm not immediately familiar. I would be The Chair: Member for Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows, able to get that information, though, for the member I would remind you that we are discussing Alice Lake if he's interested in the timelines and the sequence of Park and the changes in the boundaries as specified in events. this bill. [1105]

M. Sather: Thank you, Madam Chair. We certainly M. Sather: That's very interesting and to be applauded. are. The formation and the expansion of our parks is In 2(c) the description of Canal Flats Park is repealed. strongly supported by this side of the House as well as Can the minister just explain why that was done? the government side. However, it is an issue. It's great to expand parks, but unless we have the management Hon. B. Penner: I'm told that back in about 2004, at the contingent to look after them, it can become a bit of an annual convention of the Union of B.C. Municipalities, exercise in futility. the village of Canal Flats had approached the ministry [1100] and asked about the potential transfer of this small park I would like now to move on to subsection (a) of section to the village. 2, which repeals the name of Brooks Peninsula Park and substitutes the following. This is whereI 'm going to get into [L. Reid in the chair.] trouble with my pronunciation, so I'm going to depend on the minister's superior linguistic capabilities in this regard. There was then some subsequent correspondence It's substituted with the name Brooks Peninsula Park, also between the ministry and the village where the mayor known as Muqin Park. I don't know if that has anything to of that community formally requested transfer of the do with the venerable Maquinna or not. park to the village. There was an assessment undertaken I wanted to ask the minister just what process took of the park values and just what role that particular park place, resulting in the change of the name of Brooks played in the overall provincial park system. Peninsula Park. Subsequently, in April 2005 there was a letter sent to the mayor and council of the village of Canal Flats indi- Hon. B. Penner: I'll attempt to assist the member cating that the assessment supported the request for the with pronunciation efforts. I have a bit of an advantage, transfer of this community-oriented park to the village, perhaps, in that I was up in that area a couple of months and such a transfer would take place subject to various ago and had a briefing at that time. consultations and approval by the Legislative Assembly. To assist the member, we are retaining the name That brings us to today. I can indicate that there have Brooks Peninsula Park but also adding the name Muqin been subsequent conversations with the village and the Park, which is in recognition of one of their elders. Ministry of Environment — including, I think, most There's a significant history to that part of the west coast recently just last month in Vancouver — where the of Vancouver Island, according to the Che:k:tles7et'h' people from the village of Canal Flats continued to seek First Nation. this transfer. It's something that fits with their community As I recall from my visit there, there had been, I plan in terms of trying to operate it as a community- believe, a significant battle that had taken place on that oriented park. peninsula. Obviously, it was a significant turning point in the history of their first nation. They have communi- M. Sather: On section 2(d), Cape Scott Park, this is cated to B.C. Parks their interest in recognizing the role an addition, to a very popular hiking park on Vancouver that their elders had played and the significance of that Island, of only 0.8 hectares, which appears to be solely peninsula to their first nation. for the purpose of a parking lot. Can the minister inform It was an honour for me to travel to that area. I think me on that issue? it was in July, but I stand to be corrected. I was greeted by a significant contingent from the village that had ventured Hon. B. Penner: This piece of property was acquired out to that area. Among other things, we enjoyed a by B.C. Parks by way of a donation from Western Forest fabulous salmon feast. The salmon had been barbecued Products. The approximate value is $30,000, so we're or roasted on an open fire, and it was a very special after- grateful for that donation of land. This particular area noon that I had an opportunity to participate in. had been used previously as an informal or somewhat Suffice to say, the first nation felt it was appropriate that ad hoc parking lot, giving hikers access to the North B.C. Parks recognize the first nations interest in that area Coast Trail. Tuesday, October 20, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1283

I know that the member for North Island — I hope and in Naikoon Park in particular — any information he she doesn't mind me saying this — was, I think, quite might have about the relative abundance, if it's going up pleased when the legislation was introduced that this or down. I know there have been some studies up in the particular piece of land was going to be added to Cape Charlottes area recently on cranes, I think at least partly Scott Provincial Park because of the growing interest in relation to a wind farm development. I just wonder if amongst hikers, not just in British Columbia but else- the minister or the people with him today can give me any where, in traversing the North Coast Trail. more information on the crane population in Naikoon. The Ministry of Environment has invested significant funds — hundreds of thousands of dollars, in fact — in Hon. B. Penner: I'm afraid I don't have any informa- the last couple of years to upgrade and extend the North tion with me right at the moment on how the sandhill Coast Trail to provide additional tourism opportunities crane population is faring. I do note, however, that the and attraction to that area so that people can complete establishment of the parks and conservancies on Haida a loop trail. Gwaii generally will go some distance to protecting their By formalizing the previous ad hoc parking lot habitat. arrangement, we're giving greater certainty to visitors I, too, have some fond memories of Naikoon Provincial to the area, to hikers, that they can properly park their Park and can certainly attest to the fact that it is wind- vehicles in order to access the fabulous vistas that are swept. It was quite windy the day that I was standing available along the North Coast Trail through Cape there on the beach. I suppose that helps explain the Scott Provincial Park without having to worry that their interest of some people in developing the wind power vehicles would actually legally be in trespass because project off the coast there by the same name — if not they're parked on private land. spelled somewhat differently thanI think the provincial [1110] park name is spelled but pronounced the same way. So thank you to the donation from Western Forest I'm sorry. I don't have the particular details about how Products. If this legislation is approved by the Legislature, the sandhill crane population is faring. I do note that I then people who are accessing that area can park with a saw a number of black bears on the day that I went to certain degree of peace of mind that they're on publicly the beach in Naikoon Provincial Park, but I don't recall owned land within a provincial park and are parking seeing any sandhill cranes that day. their vehicles in an area that's now officially designated for that purpose. M. Sather: Yeah, I remember being in a cabin up Just to go back to the member's previous question there and thinking that that thing was going to blow around Canal Flats, I should also indicate and would right off the spit. It's tremendous the way the wind can like to put on the record that if the Legislative Assembly blow up there. approves this legislation and the amendment regarding [1115] Canal Flats Provincial Park, the Ministry of Environment Moving on to section 2(h), the Squitty Bay Provincial will Crown-grant the lands to the village of Canal Flats Park addition, Squitty Bay Provincial Park is on Lasqueti for park purposes. There will be a reversionary clause in Island. It says that "this acquisition protects extensive the Crown grant directing that if the lands cease to be shoreline habitat and uplands within the coastal Douglas used for park purposes, they revert back to the ownership fir ecosystem, which is the most rare and least protected of the province. ecosystem in B.C." Certainly, in the communications I've had with the So coastal Douglas fir ecosystem. I'm not sure if I'm village of Canal Flats, they have told me they intend to understanding that sentence right, because the coastal use it for park purposes. But this added provision that I Douglas fir ecosystem, I think, would be quite common, just mentioned will ensure that those lands continue to wouldn't it? Can the minister just tell me a little bit more be used for a park purpose. about this least protected ecosystem in B.C.?

M. Sather: Thanks to the minister for giving that further Hon. B. Penner: Just a little bit of background, first, information on Canal Flats. That's an important piece. on this particular acquisition, which I know was some On section 2(g), which is the Naikoon Park addition, time in the making. I'm told that the total purchase price this is an interesting one to me. I've spent some time up was just in excess of $1.5 million. Four partners contrib- there. It's a beautiful area of windswept beaches on the uted to the acquisition, and I would like to recognize north end of the Queen Charlotte Islands. One of the their efforts and thank the following: there's an eco-gift things that has always interested me about the Charlottes worth $178,000; the Islands Trust Fund board, $143,000; — and I didn't know this until I visited — is that there are the Nature Trust and the Land Conservancy, $107,000; sandhill crane populations up there. and then the province of British Columbia coming in I wondered if the minister could tell me a little bit more at just over $1 million in terms of contributions to help about the sandhill crane population on the Charlottes acquire this addition to the park. 1284 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 20, 2009

The addition represents 38.5 additional hectares, which If the member is interested, he can direct himself to will more than triple the size of the existing Squitty Bay section 8 of the park and protected areas act. It talks Park. So it would go from 12 hectares currently to in about the different legal tests that must be met before excess of 50 hectares. any types of activities are permitted. I did some of this in The member asked some questions around coastal summing up second reading debate on Bill 10, where I Douglas fir ecosystem and why that ecosystem is as read some of the definitions or descriptions of activities small as it is. I'm just advised by staff that it's a question that would be permitted, or the legal test that's applied, of geography and climate. It's never been a particularly in a case of class A provincial parks. vast part of British Columbia that's had that particular In the case of a class B provincial park, it says in section ecosystem, constrained by geography and climate more 8(4): "A park use permit referred to in subsection (3) must commonly found in the southeast part of Vancouver not be issued unless, in the opinion of the minister, to do so Island as well as the Gulf Islands and perhaps pockets in is not detrimental to the recreational values of the park con- the Lower Mainland. cerned." That's the legal test for activities in a class B park. I'm told that one example that some people in the There are also class C parks. There are now, I'm told, Lower Mainland may be familiar with is the area around 14 class C parks, which tend to serve more of a local Lighthouse Park in West Vancouver as an example of coastal purpose, a more community-oriented purpose, and Douglas fir ecosystem type in the Lower Mainland. that's why in section 10 of the park and protected areas Obviously, this part of British Columbia has also act it states, "(1) Every Class C park must be under the experienced the greatest population growth of humans. jurisdiction of a separate park board appointed by the This is where people have tended to migrate, probably for minister" — typically with representatives from the local the same reasons. Geography and climate have attracted community. Then it has some further descriptions of people here and put them in conflict with this type of how the board must be constituted, etc. ecosystem in terms of the trees themselves. By far and away the most prevalent type of provincial So this acquisition was deemed appropriate for a var- park is a class A provincial park, where, in section 8(2) of iety of reasons, not the least of which was that it helped us the park and protected areas act it states: "A park use permit add further legal protection to this Douglas fir ecosystem referred to in subsection (1) must not be issued unless, in type. the opinion of the minister, to do so is necessary to preserve [1120] or maintain the recreational values of the park involved." So there are different legal definitions of what the test Section 2 approved. is before activities are permitted to occur in those parks. I would like to take this opportunity just to correct On section 3. something that the member for Victoria–Swan Lake said during second reading debate that I think was incorrect. M. Sather: Section 3(b) is Skaha Bluffs park, which, He said that there is an increasing reliance on using from reading the press and knowing a bit about Skaha orders-in-council to establish provincial parks in recent Bluffs,I think is considered one of the real scores in this years by this government. That, in fact, is not correct. legislation. About ten years ago there would have been approxi- This is a class A park. We have had, it seems to me, mately 16 provincial parks that were established only by some changes in designations A, B and C of parks over order-in-council or by regulation. Today that number is, the years. Can the minister just tell me: do we still have I believe, seven. With the passage of this legislation, I those classificationsA , B and C? Just briefly, what are the believe that number will be six. differences between them? Increasingly, what we're doing is adding parks to the [1125] schedule, to the park and protected areas legislation, which means that to make changes to those park bound- Hon. B. Penner: The member is correct. Under the aries or descriptions requires a visit to the Legislature Park Act — park and protected areas act, pardon me — here for debate amongst members and possible approval. there are different categories of provincial parks. The I just wanted to note that. vast majority are identified as class A provincial parks, [1130] and 604 is the total, in fact, in British Columbia. I'm not We did use the order-in-council mechanism in order sure if that would include Skaha Bluffs.I f this legislation to initially establish conservancies, particularly in the passes, we'll actually have 605 class A provincial parks, Haida Gwaii area, to meet a commitment the government I'm now advised. made in response to a request from the Haida that these The difference between, for example, a class A park conservancies be established by the end of last year in and a class B park, of which there are only two now in terms of legal protection. We did that. British Columbia, is the test that must be met under the Now we're here with this legislation to add those areas park and protected areas act. to the schedule, to the park and protected areas acts. Tuesday, October 20, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1285

Section 3 approved. additional habitat protection, which we're proposing to do here through this legislation, it should further assist On section 4. in the recovery efforts for the marbled murrelet.

M. Sather: Now we get into a number of conservancies M. Sather: I'd love to talk to the minister later about in Haida Gwaii, a.k.a. the Queen Charlotte Islands. The the encouraging signs for marbled murrelets. That's good. first one: Daawuuxusda conservancy, perhaps?A n inter- Moving on to the Kamdis conservancy, which is a net- esting part of it…. It says there: "Biogeoclimatic zones work of protected estuarine wetlands which have been within the conservancy include subalpine as well as low identified as internationally significant.I wanted to ask the altitude hypermaritime variants." minister if these wetlands had been or were threatened in I'd never heard that phrase before — hypermaritime any way, and will this conservancy help to alleviate that? variants. Can the minister enlighten me on what that means? [1140]

Hon. B. Penner: I thank the member for identifying Hon. B. Penner: I don't have too many specifics that interesting phrase. I can only assume that for those here with me, except I can say that there's been interest that make a living in defining biogeoclimatic zones, expressed for a considerable period of time in establish- there's some particular significance to that phrase. ing protection for what we're calling the Kamdis con- My estimation is that it's referring to areas very close servancy, 1,896 hectares in area. to sea level. When you read the full sentence there in the I'm being shown a map here by my capable staff in the backgrounder talking about: "Biogeoclimatic zones within ministry showing that it's right along an inlet, and it, I believe, the conservancy include subalpine as well as low altitude comprises lands typically known as estuary in nature. By hypermaritime variants," I'd have to imagine that that's got their definition, estuaries tend to be sensitive.A lso, because something to do with being extremely close in proximity they provide access to a water course, they are sometimes an to the ocean and the waves, but I stand to be corrected. attractive place for various forms of development. By virtue I do note that there's talk here about the pipe organs of this addition in terms of a conservancy, we're seeking to and the columnar basalt rock formations which, again, protect that foreshore from future development. are the result of the interaction with the ocean and the significant wave activity in that area.A nyway, that leads M. Sather: On K'uuna Gwaay conservancy. This me to believe that that description refers to the inter- one contains endemic and rare wildlife species habitat action with the ocean or being in close proximity to it. — endemic being that they evolved in that place. Can [1135] the minister tell me what any of these endemic and rare I note that this is a pretty large conservancy that's proposed here — 70,293 hectares in size. For the interest wildlife species are? of members, to draw a parallel, that's approximately the same size as Manning Provincial Park that many people Hon. B. Penner: I don't have a list here of the endemic in the southern part of British Columbia will be familiar wildlife species found in that conservancy, but I would be with if they ever drive through the park on Highway 3 happy to provide the member with that information. I'll make or spend time hiking in and about that area. So it's a a note to follow up and to get the member that information. significant addition to protected areas on Haida Gwaii. M. Sather: On the Sgaay Taw Siiwaay K'adjuu — oh, M. Sather: Moving on to the Damaxyaa conservancy. this is a mouthful — conservancy. This one also supports It says that it's an important habitat for marbled murrelets. a wide variety of rare, endemic and disjunctly distributed Marbled murrelets, of course, are one of the three spe- plant species — the minister may not have the specif- cies that came under species at risk. They came under ics, but I just would like to ask him — including the the species-at-risk coordinating office, formerly under alp lily, Taylor's saxifrage, club-moss, mountainheath, Agriculture and Lands, now in this ministry. Can the Queen Charlotte twinflower violet and QueenC harlotte minister tell me: has there been any research on marbled avens. I think there might be a mistake there — Queen murrelets in that conservancy? Charlotte twinflower and then violet. So there's a violet as well, but it's not a twinflower violet. I know enough Hon. B. Penner: I don't have information with me about botany to know that. Does the minister know, or at the moment here in the House to address the mem- can anyone there assist him on what that means? ber's question with respect to marbled murrelets in this [1145] particular conservancy, but my general understanding is that we have seen some encouraging signs, generally Hon. B. Penner: We'd be happy to provide clarification speaking, with respect to marbled murrelet populations on these names, along with the other information that I in British Columbia. To the extent that we can establish indicated in response to the previous question. 1286 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 20, 2009

M. Sather: The last conservancy on this section…. This increases their level of support, a level of comfort, Oh, hang on. No, it's on the next section. because they oftentimes…. I think some of the groups felt that they weren't — or, perhaps, weren't — party to Section 4 approved. the formation of some of the conservancies.

On section 5. Section 6 approved.

M. Sather: The Tlall Conservancy contains a rare On section 7. Sitka spruce, devil's club ecosystem. For most hikers, they'll want to keep that rare. If you've ever hiked M. Sather: These are final agreement consequential through devil's club, that's some mean plant. I should amendments, and 7(b) is repealing the descriptions of know where Tlall is, but I wanted to ask the minister just Big Bunsby Marine Park — once again, I haven't been to exactly where it is. I've forgotten. it, but I've seen pictures of it, and it's really spectacular — and Tahsish-Kwois Park. S. Cadieux: I request leave to make an introduction. I can't really figure out what the reason is for repealing those descriptions. If the minister can explain that to me, Leave granted. that'd be helpful.

Introductions by Members Hon. B. Penner: I'm advised that this is merely a drafting matter. In effect, what this section, section 7, S. Cadieux: In the gallery this morning we have a purports to do is amend section 28 of what was known school group — a grade 5 group from my riding — from as Bill 45 back in the year 2007, which mentioned the Panorama Park Elementary, along with their teacher, names of three particular parks in the context of that Miss Diana Jarvis, and a number of parents that have legislation. taken the time today to accompany the students. I'd like It mentions Brooks Peninsula Park, but because of us all to make them welcome. what we debated a little bit earlier this morning, we're adding to the name of Brooks Peninsula Park a parallel Debate Continued name of Muqin Park. This is, in effect, a consequential amendment tidying up the reference to Brooks Peninsula Hon. B. Penner: The Tlall Conservancy is proposed Park that was made in Bill 45 from 2007 so that it's con- to be located in the Tlell River watershed and encom- sistent with the new name that we're providing to this passes much of that watershed. It appears, from a map area in response to a request of the first nations. I'm looking at, to be located upland and to the west of the Hecate Strait. Sections 7 to 9 inclusive approved. Just to further respond to the member, sometimes I'm led to wonder what causes certain species, whether Title approved. they're plant or animals, to have the names that they've been given, but devil's club is not one of those things. It Hon. B. Penner: Hon. Chair, I move that the committee is entirely appropriately named. rise and report the bill complete without amendment.

Section 5 approved. Motion approved.

On section 6. The committee rose at 11:54 a.m.

M. Sather: This is the "Rescission of orders in council," The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. which is a good thing —transferring orders-in-council to park. A lot of these conservancies — or, I guess, all of Report and them — probably were created by order-in-council. Third Reading of Bills Members of community groups have expressed their concern that those were susceptible to deletions Bill 10 — PROTECTED AREAS OF and boundary changes. Some of those, like the B.C. BRITISH COLUMBIA AMENDMENT ACT, 2009 Wildlife Federation, fought hard in the 1970s to ensure that it would have to go through legislation, through Bill 10, Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment the Legislature, to have major changes or boundary Act, 2009, reported complete without amendment, read changes. a third time and passed. [1150] [1155] Tuesday, October 20, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1287

Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported That number for 2008-09 was $21.7 million, and for resolutions, was granted leave to sit again. '09-10 it was $31.4 million. So those are the two specific numbers that are the correct numbers for the record. Hon. G. Abbott moved adjournment of the House. L. Popham: It's great to be back here today to finish Motion approved. these estimates off. We don't have that much time today, so I'm going to start right away with Vote 13 and look at Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 1:30 the sustainable aquaculture management line item. this afternoon. First of all, I would just like to know if the…. It's just over $3 million. I want to know if that has decreased The House adjourned at 11:57 a.m. from last year. [1015]

PROCEEDINGS IN THE Hon. S. Thomson: The number was $3.126, million. DOUGLAS FIR ROOM The number that the member opposite was asking about is $3.076 million — so down slightly. Committee of Supply L. Popham: Can you tell me what has been removed ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF from that line item as far as the budget goes? AGRICULTURE AND LANDS (continued) Hon. S. Thomson: The reduction involves the general operating reductions that have been applied across all The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); J. ministries: reductions in travel, reductions in contracts, McIntyre in the chair. etc. — so those general administrative savings that have been applied across all ministries. The committee met at 10:12 a.m. L. Popham: Can the minister tell me: will this line On Vote 13: ministry operations, $82,634,000 (con- item continue in '10-11, '11-12, or will it be removed tinued). from the ministry budget?

Hon. S. Thomson: Again, to start, to recognize and Hon. S. Thomson: The current fiscal plan, as you can introduce the staff that are with me here:L arry Pedersen, see in the Estimates, projects a continued line item for deputy minister, and behind me is Denise Bragg, who is sustainable aquaculture management. We expect that the assistant deputy minister for the executive financial that line item will continue to be there in the future. office. I also wanted, to start, to provide a couple of quick L. Popham: I'm going to move on to the status of the points of clarification, to follow up on our estimates of transfer to DFO. I would like to know if the minister can October 20, just to correct a couple of things for the tell me why this transfer has taken place and if he thinks record. it's a good move for aquaculture in British Columbia. One was my mistake. I introduced one of our staff [1020] members, Allan Lidstone, as being with the aquaculture and fisheries branch, which was my mistake. He's our Hon. S. Thomson: Just to confirm it — your opening director of strategic land use policy. I mixed him up with question. A transfer has not taken place. As you know, another Al — Al Castledine, who's in our aquaculture there was a court decision called the Hinkson decision, branch. So just to get the record straight, and I apologize which ruled that finfish aquaculture is a federal jurisdic- to Al for that. tion. We're currently in the process of responding to that I also just wanted to provide some clarification on one court direction for the transfer of that jurisdiction to the of the answers I gave to the member opposite on Crown federal government as per the directions of the court. land sales. We were asked what the amount or the value of the Crown land sales was for 2009-10 — an estimate L. Popham: Can the minister tell me if the province for 2009-10 and the number for 2008-09. will be challenging that decision? I gave a number that was a total value that included other revenues and licences and tenure fees related to Hon. S. Thomson: The province did not appeal that those Crown lands, so I wanted to provide the specific decision. As I said in response to the previous question, information which I think the member asked in terms we're now in the process of discussions with the federal of the value of Crown land sales specifically. government for an orderly transfer of that jurisdiction 1288 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 20, 2009

to the federal government as per the direction of the and that is the objective that we're continuing to work court. towards with the federal government. You asked about stakeholder engagement or consultation, L. Popham: Can the minister tell me why the province and I can let you know that the federal government, as a will not be appealing that decision? courtesy, has advised us that they intend to have broad consultation on the new regulation, and in the process. Hon. S. Thomson: There was legal analysis by the That will take place over the next few months. Attorney General on the decision not to appeal that You asked about the nature of the discussions. The decision, and I think that questioning would be more nature of the current discussions are around essentially appropriately canvassed with the Attorney General at how well the federal government regulates and adminis- the time of his estimates. ters that portion of the regulation that is to be transferred to them as a result of the court decision. L. Popham: I think there has been a statement by the If you look at the court decision, you also know that in Minister of Environment on the lack of confidence in that transition period between now and then, the courts DFO that the public has regarding the aquaculture man- directed that the province will continue to administer and agement situation and the collapse of our wild stock. have responsibility for the industry under our current set I'm just wondering if the minister has confidence that of regulations and current management structure. We DFO is capable of sustainable aquaculture management will continue to do that over that time period. That was and is capable of protecting and helping bring back the what was directed by the courts. salmon stocks in B.C. You asked about the number of new applications or [1025] number of applications. There are currently seven finfish aquaculture new applications that are in a process now Hon. S. Thomson: Firstly, I don't think it's appropri- of review, consultation. It involves very significant first ate in my estimates to comment on the competency of nations consultation, environmental assessment. Those a federal regulator, but what I can say is that, as part of processes are continuing on those seven new applications. our discussions that we are having and will be having [1035] with the federal government over the next months, responding to the decision, provincial interests will B. Simpson: As the minister may be aware, I have inform the discussion and be a significant part of that responsibilities as Aboriginal Relations critic for the discussion. opposition. Within that context I would like to explore a I also can say that we are working closely with my col- little bit around the status of aquaculture transfer to the league the Minister of Environment as part of these dis- federal government. cussions, ensuring that the concerns that he has raised Are the discussions that are going on directly with the are taken into account as we work on this arrangement Department of Fisheries and Oceans? As I understand with the federal government. the minister, he indicated the Ministry of Environment is involved. So is it Agriculture and Lands and L. Popham: Can the minister tell me how long he Environment on the province's side and Department of expects the transition to take? I know that there has Fisheries and Oceans on the federal side? been a discussion that it might be February, but in the briefingI had prior to these estimates, there was an indi- Hon. S. Thomson: Yes, the discussions at this point cation that it could take longer than that. Is there an end are between the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands and date for these discussions? the Ministry of Environment on the provincial side. The I would like to know the nature of those discussions reason for that is that as part of the court decision, the — if there have been any stakeholders invited into those waste management regulation, which was part of the discussions. And I would also like to know, while the regulatory regime for the industry under the Ministry discussions are happening and while our province is still of Environment, was struck down by the courts, as undertaking the management of the aquaculture and well, and was to be part of that new regulation on the fish industry: will the minister be putting a hold on the federal responsibility. That involves our Ministry of permits that are pending right now? And I would also Environment. like to know: how many pending permits are there? So on our side it's the Ministry of Environment and [1030] Ministry of Agriculture and Lands, and it's directly with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on the federal Hon. S. Thomson: A number of questions there, so side. just to go through them. First of all, the court decision set out that the jurisdiction was to be transferred by B. Simpson: That's the staff level negotiations. From February 9, 2010. That was the direction of the court, a first nations perspective, as well as many other com- Tuesday, October 20, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1289

munities, the minister kind of brushed off the trust issue. government, depending on the nature of the deal we strike But a member of his own cabinet actually raised the with DFO, or they will disappear, in which case resources question of trust with respect to DFO. are freed up, which are some of the questions we're get- What I hear, as I go around the first nations commun- ting to. But we need to know the nature of the discussions ities, is that DFO does not have sufficient budget to do that are going on with the federal government in order to what it is currently doing with respect to managing wild understand what's happening with this line item. stock. They also believe that DFO has been heavily politi- With respect to the minister's answer, I guess there's an cized with respect to both wild stock and its support for argument to be made that if provincial interests are what's aquaculture. at risk here, again, we could have taken an alternate path So there's a predisposition on the part of the federal and made sure those provincial interests were taken care government, and I'm sure the minister must be aware of by maintaining it as a provincial responsibility. of that, to promote aquaculture, when people in the Where I live there are court rulings that say that we province of British Columbia want a rethink of aqua- should settle land claims issues, and we don't pay attention culture — hence, the concern that the government of to that. We go appeal it. British Columbia did not challenge the appeal and look It's a little bit of a weak argument to say that provincial at alternate ways. interests need to be reflected.I don't think we're defending We don't always do what the court tells us to do. We provincial interests by not appealing the court case. But can come back into the Legislature and reframe our own that's my personal opinion, and that of many others. regulations and legislation to drive our own agenda. So To the minister's point on DFO staffing and budget, there is a trust issue out there that's very significant. I'm sure the minister must understand that in the transfer My question to the minister is: what's the nature of any to protect provincial interests, we need to eyeball the political discussions that are going on to make sure, if we politicians at the federal level, who are in the same fiscal are going to go down this path, that DFO is actually going constraints that the province is, and make sure that the to be given additional resources and additional budget provincial interests are going to be protected through to take on the additional responsibilities of aquaculture, additional resourcing and staffing. and they're not going to have to subsume a brand-new [1045] responsibility under an already limited budget? The minister has already indicated that in the go- Are there political discussions underway, and what forward years this line item in the appropriations vote guarantee do the people of British Columbia have that continues. DFO will actually be adequately resourced to take on a Is there any discussion whatsoever of a transition new responsibility? period where the ministry — through secondments, [1040] through a memorandum of understanding, through some form of agreement — will continue to make sure Hon. S. Thomson: To the member, to advise you that that ministry staff are eyeballing what's going on and at this point the discussions are at the technical level, not provincial staff are making sure that, whether it's an at the political level. As I mentioned earlier, our object- 18-month transition or a two-year transition, "provincial ives are going to be to ensure that provincial interests interests are protected," using the minister's own words? are reflected in the regulatory and management regime One of the concerns that people have is that we may end that is negotiated out of the discussions with the federal up…. government. If it's a cut and dried deal, DFO takes over on X date, I think, in terms of resources, it's not appropriate for and the ministry no longer has responsibility on X date. me in these estimates, and in my estimates, to comment Then you put finfish aquaculture into no man's land on or to speculate on what the DFO budget or resources for a period of time while the Department of Fisheries may be for this. We are responding to the direction of and Oceans tries to figure out the beast that they just the Supreme Court of British Columbia, and we will inherited. work in that process to ensure that provincial interests So is there any discussion about a transition window? are reflected in the outcome of the discussions. Is there any discussion about a continued presence of ministry staff so that we actually do make sure that prov- The Chair: Just a general reminder that these questions incial interests are taken care of during that transition should focus on those things relevant to Vote 13. period?

B. Simpson: Thank you, MadamC hair. There's an explicit Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you for the question, line item budget under Vote 13 for sustainable aquaculture because I think it's a very good question. We share the management, and that's what we're canvassing. member opposite's concerns, and that will be part of the Part of what will happen here is we will either continue discussions as we work towards an orderly transition of to have some of those costs associated with the provincial the responsibility. 1290 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 20, 2009

I think the other point that needs to be recognized think what I would like to say is that we're prepared, as a here is that we're responding to the court decision. The follow-up, to provide you with that information. court said February 9. Any extension beyond that point There are a number of different kinds of applications, will require court agreement to do that. So as part of the as you know, related to licensing renewal. Some, as you orderly transition, we're working towards that date, but said, asked some expansion. I think to be fair, rather than I do…. You know, I think it's a very legitimate question provide a number that may not be completely accurate and legitimate concern, and we share it within our min- here, what we can commit to do is provide you that as a istry, and that will be part of the discussions. follow-up — a breakdown of the number of additional I think one of the other areas — and if you have applications that we have currently in the system and looked at the court decision — where provincial inter- under review, in addition to those seven new finfish est will continue to be maintained is the fact that we…. applications that I talked about earlier. The court did not strike down our responsibility, our role as far as the Land Act and the Land Act tenures for L. Popham: I would just like to state that it makes the operation of the farm. So we will still continue to me very uneasy to think that we would be considering have that responsibility even under the new regulatory giving permission for new finfish aquaculture operations authority. Provincial interest will still continue to be to begin as we're transitioning into a different type of maintained there. jurisdiction with those. [1050] I think the constituents around B.C. are very concerned We will have…. That means, as I think you were infer- about the sustainability of the current aquaculture situa- ring: will we still have a role and a line item for sustainable tion. I think people are really concerned that we should be aquaculture management? Yes, we will, but the nature of moving from open-net containment to closed-containment that will depend on the outcome of the discussions. aquaculture. I want to know if there's any money in the line item to help fish farms transition to closed-net con- L. Popham: Regarding the seven new finfish permits tainment systems. that are pending, I would like to know if these are sep- [1100] arate applications from expanding current sites, and if there's a different number for those. I would also like to [D. Horne in the chair.] know if the minister believes that any of these permits will be approved before the transition is finished. Hon. S. Thomson: No, there is not a specific alloca- tion of dollars for closed-containment work, but we have Hon. S. Thomson: Yes, the seven are separate. There committed and have our staff resources working in that are a number of other amendments in an application, area. We have significant expertise that we have built up requests in for…. These are amendments to tenures, over the years in the industry within our staff — some very, licences — a number in the Broughton area, which I very good staff who are working with organizations and think is an area you may be asking about. people interested in closed-containment technology. [1055] Part of the work of our staff is to do that and to work, In terms of the approval process, as you know, those looking forward, and researching that technology. applications go through a rigorous environmental We do work with organizations directly, like the assessment, a very significant level of first nations con- coastal association of aquaculture reform and the Save sultation — requires local government involvement in Our Salmon society. We're working with those. I've that. I'm not in a position to be able to speculate as to recently met with them, as well, to discuss their interest whether any specific number or any of the new finfish in these areas. applications may be approved within that time frame. We'll continue to ensure that our staff resources Those depend upon that very rigorous process. and expertise that we've built up continue to contribute We've got the strongest, strictest environmental regu- to the research and the investigation of that type of lation on the industry probably in the world and with the technology. level of consultation that's required before an approval. I can't speculate as to whether any specific number of L. Popham: I would like to know…. Given the court those will be approved within that time frame before the ruling that open-net salmon farming is a fishery and not February 9 date. agriculture, will the industry's tax assessment change from farm tax to industrial tax? Industrial tax is much L. Popham: Could the minister tell me how many higher than farm tax. permits are expansion permits? Hon. S. Thomson: Yeah, a good question, and not Hon. S. Thomson: We're having some difficulty in one I have a specific answer for, but I think it's certainly very quickly getting that specific information for you. I something we can look into. I think it was also one that Tuesday, October 20, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1291 was appropriate to be canvassed under the Ministry of ocean ranching and the impact it could have on British Finance estimates, as well, because that's where the tax Columbia. policy decisions rest. But I think it's a very good ques- tion, and I thank you for raising it, and it's something Hon. S. Thomson: To respond to the member's question, we'll look into. no, the province and the ministry are not contemplating, and we do not have any resources in the ministry dedi- L. Popham: What does the minister believe will be cated towards ocean ranching. the status of the B.C. sustainable aquaculture report now [1110] that there is going to be a transfer to DFO? I am Of interest, I thought I might draw your attention concerned that all of this work and the money spent and to — and you may be aware of — a report that was out the hours spent will be lost in the shuffle, andI 'm hoping by Robert Wager, who you may know from Vancouver that the minister will be bringing it to the table. Island University, commenting on the ocean ranching and indicating that Japan, Russia, Alaska plan to release Hon. S. Thomson: Yes, that report and information over five billion smolts into the North Pacific. His con- will be used to help inform our discussions with the federal cern and worry is that that goes beyond the caring government. capacity of the marine environment and will actually damage wild stocks. G. Coons: Thank you, Minister.B eing from the north It's something that needs to be looked at very care- coast and working on this issue of open-net fish farming fully, but at this point, the ministry does not have any for close to ten years now and being on the committee…. resources in our budget, and we're not working on that It was a long, long process — a lot of time spent, dozens policy. and dozens of communities visited, thousands of sub- missions and dozens of expert opinions — and we came G. Coons: Yes, and right now there is a small ocean up with a number of recommendations. ranching type of facility happening on Haida Gwaii at About the only recommendation that was followed Pallant Creek, where the Haida have been operating that for up on…. Well, it was half of one. One of the recom- a number of years. When the fish come in, it's an open fish- mendations was: no more licences issued north of Cape ery. A third goes back into the revenue of the organization. Caution. What ended up happening was that there was Their funding is being cut. It seems that as we try to a moratorium placed on the north coast. From our enhance our wild stocks, we just have these roadblocks perspective up there, that was a great move. put in our way, whether it's open-net fish farms coming [1105] into migratory routes, or it's a lack of funding to come I'm just wondering. That was about the only recom- to programs and initiatives that are serving the enhance- mendation that actually came from the Aquaculture ments of our stocks. Committee. Can the minister confirm that this mora- I do believe, as we move forward, that that is something on torium will remain in place after the transition to federal the north coast which is a huge topic of conversation. I'm responsibility? sure the minister or ministry, during the UBCM, have had discussions or will have discussions with groups Hon. S. Thomson: Yes, as you know, there was a legal that are contemplating ocean ranching on the north instrument in place to effect that moratorium under the coast. I hope that the minister and his staff prepare for Environment and Land Use Act, and that remains in that discussion. place. Now, the other thing that's huge, I believe, is again getting back to closed containment. As the minister and G. Coons: So I'm under the impression that that his staff know, Agrimarine, a B.C.-based company that moratorium will remain in place during the jurisdiction has had pilot projects on the Island in Nanaimo and changeover. the upper Island, is now working cooperatively with a Thank you, Minister. Chinese company in closed-containment systems. I find Another question I wanted to ask about is ocean it fairly ludicrous that we have a B.C.-based company ranching. During the Aquaculture Committee's tour that has the technology, and they are having to go off- that we did, that came up on a number of occasions. As shore to push the technology of closed containment. we know, ocean ranching is huge in Alaska, and they've I'm just wondering. Has the minister talked to, met been doing it for many years. It's a key driver to their with, Richard Buchanan of Agrimarine? economy, along with protecting their wild stocks. Again, it's based on the concept of common property Hon. S. Thomson: We're certainly aware of the work versus private ownership, and I'm just wondering if the and of the project. Staff meet regularly with Richard minister or the ministry, along with their expertise in Buchanan and look at that project. I personally have not closed containment, is pushing towards any expertise in met with him yet but have had a number of meetings 1292 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 20, 2009 with groups and companies and organizations interested The Chair:N o, Minister. in this technology. That is one that I haven't had yet. Hon. S. Thomson: Okay, so we'll proceed. G. Coons: Again, when we start looking at our wild Could you restate the question? In sorting out a bit of stocks and the concern that we have, and I referred the procedure here, I've lost the tenure of the question. to ocean ranching and perhaps the push towards that Could you restate it? Then we'll answer it. initiative, closed containment is something that's dear to a lot of people. I'm just wondering — and I'm not too L. Popham: Thank you.I 'd love to restate the question. sure if you answered the question — is there any funding We're both getting used to the rules here. put towards any strategies or initiatives for closed con- I'm wondering if there's going to be a review of the tainment throughout the province? agricultural land reserve and if there's any money set [1115] aside to work…. Maybe I'll preface my question by saying that the topic of the agricultural land reserve came up in Hon. S. Thomson: Yes, that question was previously the Ranching Task Force. That's just one example where canvassed. I did indicate that there are no specific dollars I think that there is some discussion about a possible in our resources, in our budget, this year for that. But I review, an idea that maybe it's time for the agricultural did indicate that we have significant staff-level expertise land reserve to be reviewed on its effectiveness. and involvement in researching closed-containment Is there any money in the budget going towards a technology, working with those organizations that are review at this time? interested in that, which I mentioned previously. [1120] I also just wanted to make a little further comment on the ocean ranching. You're expressing a fair amount of Hon. S. Thomson: Reference the discussion at the interest in there. I think we need to really understand and Ranching Task Force around ALR. I'm aware that those know the risks of that before proceeding too far down discussions have taken place within the Ranching Task that road in terms of looking at that. I think we're pre- Force, but as you know, the task force is continuing its pared to continue. I know there are interests, but I think work. We haven't at this point seen the specific recom- it's an area that you would need to significantly under- mendations from that report. We'll address those when stand the risks before investing significant resources or they come, and whatever recommendations there may staff resources in those areas. be related to the ALR will be considered in the overall context of the recommendations for the report. L. Popham: I'm going to switch now to the Agricultural At this point in our budget we do not have specific Land Commission. The first question that I'm going to dollars for a review. I think it's fair to say that regula- ask is if there are any plans or any budget money going tions and operations of the Land Commission…. Parts towards a review of the agricultural land reserve. of those regulations get reviewed as part of their regu- lar operations, part of their general operations. Within Hon. S. Thomson: Chair, I just ask for some guidance. their current existing budget, that can be done, within This is a separate vote. The line commission funding limits, within the limits of the budget. is under a separate vote, Vote 14. We haven't put the We're not contemplating an increase to the Land motion on the floor yet for debate on that portion of Commission budget for a specific review of any kind. the estimates. So I seek some guidance as to whether we As a matter of good practice and as they do their work, have now completed Vote 13 and are moving on or…. various areas of their regulations and operations get reviewed. It's just part of their ongoing activities. No, we B. Simpson: Often what ministers will do is put the do not have specific dollars for a review. various votes they have on the table so that we don't have to discriminate vote for vote in estimates debate. The L. Popham: The next question I'm going to ask minister can, if he wishes, stand up and put the motion is coming from the constituents that represent the forward. That way we have all the votes on the table at Peninsula Agricultural Commission here on the Island. the same time and don't have to close the previous vote. There have been years of work done regarding the prob- lem of construction fill and industrial fill being dumped The Chair:I s that the will of the committee? onto agricultural land reserve land. It seems to be very vague who is responsible for allowing this fill to end up Hon. S. Thomson: Certainly. I'm quite prepared to on farmland. I think that in a lot of cases it seems that do that. I'm just looking for the piece of paper with the there may be more money in fill than in farming. specific number on it to do the motion. My concern is that there doesn't seem to be enough Sorry, I'm just looking for procedure here. Do I need money in the budget for monitoring these activities. to specifically put that motion on the table for that vote? I'm wondering. I know that there have been some staff Tuesday, October 20, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1293

decreases in this current vote, and that's due to retire- terms of the definition, in terms of the bylaws of local ments, I believe. Is any of the time that's being taken to government. I think that could play a significant portion review things like the fill situation being affected by this of being able to address this issue. year's budget, or will there be an increase in the staffing Both the question earlier and your questions, I think, for monitoring? have flagged an issue that is of significant concern to [1125] the ministry as well. So I can indicate that I'm willing to commit myself and staff to look at this issue and see if Hon. S. Thomson: This is a concern that we share.A s there are things that we can do in terms of strengthening you may know, since 2007 we have enhanced the com- our capacity to deal with that within existing resources. pliance component of the ALC. We've received over 700 inquiries. We've investigated and acted on 500 of those. V. Huntington: I really do thank the minister. I think Now, to be fair, those are not all fill issues. There are it is a significant loophole within the act, andI 'll have to other issues that the enforcement and compliance group look up the new legislation. I'm a little bit out of time. works on. But we recognize this is a continuing issue, a I did want to ask some questions about aquaculture, continuing concern, and we will need to work within the but given I was in a meeting earlier and I don't want to resources we currently have in the Land Commission. be redundant, I'll skip over those. As you'll see in the estimates, we're not contemplating As the minister would know, Delta has the order-in- an increase to their budget, but we do have the enforce- council placed on it and the municipality's jurisdiction on ment and compliance staff. We'll need to make sure that its agricultural lands. One of the issues that is starting to we work closely with local governments in addressing arise again, because of our early evenings and the cloud this issue. We need to work closely with the complaint- cover, are the greenhouse lights again. I believe that there driven process. I think it's a very fair question and a was some agreement finally reached between the green- legitimate concern, something that we need to continue house growers and the ministry that the lights wouldn't to pay attention to. go on until later at night, maybe closer to midnight, and they would be on all night long. V. Huntington: Just to follow up on that question of fill, I'm not sure if the minister and his staff have ever been it is an incredibly serious problem. In some municipal- in Delta on a low cloud cover evening when those green- ities and areas it's almost out of control. The enforcement house lights are on. When they are allowed to be on at of it is basically nil. night, the entire sky glows orange. There is no night left In Delta much of the municipality's ability to enforce in Ladner, and it looks as if there is a giant fire across is restricted by the OIC that the province has initiated in the entire horizon. It is unhealthy, and it has disrupted Delta's regard. One of the areas that I have felt the min- the circadian rhythms of the wildlife. It is an improper — ister and his department could assist in the issue of fill how can I put it? — assault on a community. It is permitted on agricultural land is by examining the soil deposit act. as a normal farm use and a normal farm practice. I've felt for a long time that the definition of "soil" is one Could I ask whether the minister would commit — of the big problems that face areas on agricultural land. and I'm extremely grateful for his comments on the Were the ministry to consider re-examining that soil-depositing issue — to again examine this issue of definition, you might be able to assist the municipalities greenhouse lights in Delta and consider whether the and even the ALC in their enforcement duties. I wonder industry, especially in Europe, has moved ahead with its if the minister could give me some idea of whether he ability to cover the ceilings of those greenhouses if they would consider examining that definition. are going to commit to grow lights all winter long? [1130] [1135]

Hon. S. Thomson: So just for clarification…. We're Hon. S. Thomson: I think the member opposite is just sorting out the legislation here. The soil deposit act aware of the very significant economic contribution that, I think, you referred to…. I think you were probably that the greenhouse industry makes to the province referring to the Soil Conservation Act, which was then throughout the Fraser Valley and around the province. moved into the portions that were moved under the I know that this has been an issue in the past. I know Land Commission Act, to be able to deal with…. That's that the industry has set industry standards and best where the definition of "soil" currently rests. management practices related to screening and hours of We can look at that, but I think — to go to your bigger operation. question of dealing with the overall issue — what I'd like What I can say is that I will ask my staff for a comprehen- to indicate is that I'm quite prepared to work between sive briefing on this, on the current standards and on this the ministry, the commission and local government and issue. I think it needs to be done in the context respecting look at what we may need to do or what can be done in the economics of the industry, the contribution that the terms of strengthening our capacity to deal with that in industry makes to our province. I'm prepared to indicate 1294 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 20, 2009

that I will ask staff for a comprehensive briefing on the G. Gentner: The question was more to the view of current standards. We do have a good relationship with how much money is being spent and how much staff is the B.C. Greenhouse Growers Association and local gov- being used. This is before the courts, since the RCMP is ernment, and I'll take that briefing and then determine a conducting a separate study from that which the ALC is course of action from there. conducting. Here we are. We're going into another B.C. Rail situation. V. Huntington: I appreciate that. It is a significant We went six years on that one. This thing has been hanging problem for community, and I think the screening issue around now for two years. It's a matter of the ALC. is one that has to be looked at again. We're not sug- My question is this. Why is the ministry running gesting that the greenhouses don't have a huge economic the Agricultural Land Commission and its funding generator opportunity for the communities, but neither in this case into the ground, when the probe into the should they assault the communities on a continuing member's alleged impropriety — and this is a serious basis if there are alternatives to their activity. matter — needs appropriate support assistance? My [1140] question is: why is this ministry deliberately delaying I have one other short question, given the time. I'm this matter? very concerned about the number of decisions the ALC has been making on non–farm use applications. Rather Hon. S. Thomson: As I indicated earlier, I don't have a role than wait for the minister's reply…. I suspect further in this matter, so it's not appropriate for me to comment. questions will be asked in this regard, but I would like In terms of the land commission budget, they have to ask the minister if he would consider reviewing the taken a general reduction in budget, as most ministries numbers of decisions in that regard that have been made across government, in terms of administrative costs and recently at the ALC. services, consistent with all other areas of government.

Hon. S. Thomson: As the member opposite knows, D. Donaldson: I have a question for the minister about the commission is an independent tribunal, and it's not access to agricultural lands. It's a specific situation that appropriate for me to review the decisions. The decisions relates to these budget deliberations, but I believe the impli- are a matter of public record posted on their website. But cations could be more widespread across the province. for the member opposite, what I can indicate that I would [1150] do is to have the commission staff be made available to I note that the mandate of the ministry is to promote meet with you to review any specific decisions that may and support agricultural land development and agri- be causing you this concern. culture in general. The situation is in my constituency, where a landowner owns private land and has in the G. Gentner: This year's, or last year's, Agricultural past been able to bring quite a large amount of hay, 120 Land Commission budget was slashed about 6.5 percent round bales, off this piece of property. once again, with the majority of that being reductions to The road access leading to this land is on Crown land. employees and technical-legal services. It was a Forest Service road, no longer being used in that In light of the fact that the hon. member for Chilliwack situation. There's a bridge that's in a state of disrepair, is under investigation regarding transactions of land which makes it impossible to cross with the kind of development of farmland while he was mayor of vehicle needed to remove that amount of hay. Chilliwack…. This investigation is underway and is partly Now, I suspect, with the inability of the Forest Service being conducted by the Agricultural Land Commission. to maintain these kinds of roads, that this situation Last June…. In 2007 the city of Chilliwack sent 176 files might not be an isolated event. It might apply around to the ALC in order to conduct its own investigation. the province to people having access to the agricultural My question is in light of the fact that Brian Underhill lands that are privately deeded but the access to them from the ALC executive suggested that to implicate the is across Crown lands along roads that were previously member "has been time-consuming and that the ALC maintained to a certain standard by Forest Service. This has a limited number of staff."H ow much time is actually is a traditional use of these roads. being spent on this file, and how much money, and are My question is: is there money, resources, in the there investigations being outsourced by the ALC? budget for the upcoming year that we're considering for [1145] improvements to access to privately owned agricultural lands across Crown land access? If not, would you inves- Hon. S. Thomson: As the member knows, this process is tigate with other ministries so those kinds of resources under review by the commission. It would be inappropriate could be included in future budgets? for me to comment any further at this time. This commis- We know that we want to be able to maintain the agri- sion is an independent process. Given the review, as I said, it cultural base that we have, and it's very important for my would be inappropriate for me to comment at this time. constituency that that's done as well. Tuesday, October 20, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1295

Hon. S. Thomson:Thanks for the question.A re there L. Popham: This will be my final question regarding the provisions or is there budget within our budget for cap- estimates for agriculture. I would appreciate a letter in writing ital work on access roads and things? The short answer instead of an answer right now. My question is this: how much is no, not within our budget. money is being used from the Agriculture and Lands budget in But I think that as Minister of Agriculture, I can say total to promote our B.C. agricultural products? Thank you. I'm always interested in ensuring that we have the right policies in place for agriculture development. I'm will- Vote 13: ministry operations, $82,634,000 — approved. ing to discuss this with my colleagues. I think you need to recognize and I'm sure you're Vote 14: Agricultural Land Commission, $2,276,000 aware of the overall fiscal challenges facing all ministries, — approved. but it's certainly something that I'm prepared to discuss with my colleagues. If you had more specific informa- Hon. S. Thomson: I move that the committee rise, tion, we'd be prepared to receive that and be able to use report resolutions and completion of the Ministry of that one as an example. Agriculture and Lands and seek leave to sit again. We need to make sure that when decisions are made around roads, we understand and are aware of agriculture's Motion approved. needs and those processes. [1155] The committee rose at 11:56 a.m.

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