An Inside Look at Podcasting in 2020 a CONVERSATION with JON SCHNAARS of PUSHKIN INDUSTRIES
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FEATURED An Inside Look at Podcasting in 2020 A CONVERSATION WITH JON SCHNAARS OF PUSHKIN INDUSTRIES DAVID BRASHEARS - PR DIRECTOR sk 30 people what they listened to on the way to work last year, and probably 20 of them would reference a podcast. It’s the new way to access an older media format, and it is still growing by leaps and bound. I’ve been an avid consumer of Apodcast content for the best part of the last decade, and have built some relationships with industry professionals, so I thought it’d be a good idea to reach out and learn how one of the most interesting media industries of the new millennium was faring through the modern state of things. I became familiar with Jon Schnaars through an independent genre film critique show for which he is one of the regular hosts. Jon has been a host on a few different podcasts for nearly 15 years and has seen how the platform has grown and evolved in that time. Through his career, Jon has worked in advertising and marketing strategy for companies like Google—part of that time working with the YouTube team on advertising and content integration, and on the agency side helping brands utilize advertising partnerships to grow their position. Along with his duties as a content creator these days, he now also works within one of the larger independent podcast production companies based in New York, Pushkin Industries. Pushkin Industries was launched in 2018 as a joint venture between Jacob Weisberg and Malcolm Gladwell (bestselling author of The Tipping Point, Outliers, blink, David and Goliath, What the Dog Saw, Talking to Strangers, and more). In their first year they produced 7 shows, including Malcolm’s own highly regarded “Revisionist History.” Currently the company produces 14 shows on a wide range of subjects. The company has earned their reputation for quality content by partnering with acclaimed academics, journalists, and authors to bring their unique perspective to subjects within their areas of expertise. Pushkin has partnered with noted writers and academics like Michael Lewis (bestselling author of Moneyball, The Big Short, The Blind Side, and The Fifth Risk), Harvard professor Noah Feldman, acclaimed historian Jill Lepore, Yale professor Dr. Laurie Santos, cook and journalist Tamar Adler, economist and journalist Tim Harford, and many others. So, I asked Jon if he had some time for a quick virtual conversation to learn more about how Pushkin is navigating 2020, and how he sees the industry as a whole responding to the new behavior, and emerging attitudes, of the podcast audience. Here’s what I learned. (continued on next page) The Jackalope 2020.Q4 3 CreativeEnergy.Agency DAVID: As I’ve paid attention to a lot of the content I’ve been consuming, I’ve perceived some of the same trends for podcasts in 2020 that other more traditional media industries are working through. I know that I, and a large section of the general audience, have consumed podcast media within my daily commute in the past. With so many people currently working remotely, have you seen a change in listening behavior this year? JON: There aren’t great industry ad reach metrics out there. A lot of what you can find are based on surveys and some industry anecdotal data. So, I can share my own perception on how things have evolved this year. We (Pushkin) were on a healthy growth trajectory coming into 2020 and were on projection through February. Then things started to trend outside of our projections. As you said, the biggest impact to our industry has been the change in commuting behavior. With people staying home, and having less transit “down time,” there was a near immediate impact to podcast as an industry. Luckily, that rebounded relatively quickly for us. By mid-to-late June, we were seeing our own listenership stabilize. However, I will say that there has definitely been an uneven distribution of that kind of stabilization as it pertains to different shows and content. There have been different sectors that have been hit harder for sure. For example, true crime podcasts—which had been a huge segment of popular content for several years—was hit particularly hard. There was a lot of dialogue and theories that audiences were averse to some of this content (which can be stressful for some) in the midst of real-world anxiety that people were dealing with. Now, I think most of them have recovered at this point as well, but it has been interesting to see how different content has been impacted. Those early DR Now, there have been a lot of conversations that would suggest that there has been a direct impact on what advertisers saw that we’d call secondary—or even tertiary—shows that may be supported by a more casual audience. These they could get a large are the shows that have depended more on listeners audience through that aren’t necessarily “appointment listeners” (subscribers that have a standing appointment to podcasts for pennies on download and listen to their favorite shows), but have generally performed well in the weeks and months the dollar of what they’d following their release. That would suggest to me that have to spend on more maybe the total time people are listening to podcasts is still lower than it was in 2019. traditional media. DAVID: So, how do you see advertising integrating into podcasting these days? My perception has always been that the podcast content creators were largely made up of independent personalities with sort of a “rebel radio” attitude towards advertising. Has this evolved, or is that very much a part of the balance between brand advertisers and show creators even in 2020? (continued on next page) The Jackalope 2020.Q4 4 CreativeEnergy.Agency JON: What you’re calling the “rebel radio” piece CPM we can while also being able to sell all our was certainly there, and still is. There is now sort advertising spots. So, while we undoubtedly would of a convergence between that side of the industry love to partner with and build unique executions for and then basically what has been the public radio a large brand-focused advertiser, we’re also focused format. Shows like This American Life is still like a on staying nimble enough to deliver value to a more top 5 podcast every week, and their audience is huge response-focused advertiser as well. compared to many other independent shows. DAVID: That’s interesting. I have seen the podcast From an advertising perspective I think those two advertising model align pretty closely with another content segments are very instructive. If you look media that I know you’ve worked within, YouTube. at content creators like Mark Maron and Joe Rogan, It does seem like there are three different kinds who are very much those independent voices in the of advertising that happen in both of these media industry, you can see they have always had advertising types; DR, sponsored content, and then full brand partners that were very much from the DR (Direct messaging partnership productions. An example I was Response) strategy. The advertisers aren’t necessarily really impressed with was the General Electric podcast evaluating show content for brand alignment as much mini-series, The Message. It was a professionally as looking at general listenership and demographic produced series based on a science fiction premise data and putting together a broad campaign based that ultimately acted as a vehicle to inform and mainly on CPM. educate an audience about some new medtech that GE was developing. It was an incredibly clever and Those early DR advertisers saw that they could get a effective vehicle to share their information. large audience through podcasts for pennies on the dollar of what they’d have to spend on more traditional JON: Some of the people I work with actually made that media. They also saw that they were able to get unique show, *laughs.* Pushkin has actually done a similar ad reads by hosts that felt much more like sponsor partnership with Lexus with our mini-series, Go and copy than general advertising copy. It was, and still See. Malcolm was invited to the Lexus facilities in is, a great deal for what it costs. Japan and was taken through the process of design and production for the company, and produced a On the flip side, public radio has had a much more series of podcasts based around his experience. Like sophisticated relationship with brand messaging. the GE show, this was a full partnership between the They have built a system that offers more engaging Lexus brand and Pushkin. That kind of content is a and in-depth brand voice through curated content great way to synthesize a brand position with a unique that aligns the voice of the show with a brand position. podcast host’s perspective to speak to maybe a smaller audience that is highly engaged in an area that you Now you are seeing these two ad strategies co- want to inform. It can be very powerful. mingling within the same show on a regular basis. These larger brand partnerships generally come with No matter what kind of advertising we bring to our better budgets and more opportunity for creative shows at Pushkin, we try very hard to make sure the ad content within a show. At Pushkin, our aspiration is reads, sponsor copy, or full production come across obviously to create content that drives the highest as genuinely aligning with our audience and show (continued on next page) The Jackalope 2020.Q4 5 CreativeEnergy.Agency perspective.