Deliberation

WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE GENERAL SYNOD THURSDAY 11 DECEMBER 2014

Present Lord Lloyd of Berwick Lord Glenarthur (Chairman) Lord Judd Sir Tony Baldry Lord Laming Sir Peter Bottomley Lord Luke Mr Ben Bradshaw Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Alastair Burt Sarah Newton Baroness Butler-Sloss Baroness Perry of Southwark Lord Elton Mrs Caroline Spelman Mr Frank Field Lord Walpole

Examination of Witnesses: Deliberation of the Care of Churches and Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction (Amendment) Measure

Witnesses: The Lord of Worcester, The Right Worshipful Timothy Briden, Vicar General, Province of Canterbury, The Venerable , of the Convocation of Canterbury, William Fittall, Secretary General, Archbishops’ Council, and Alexander McGregor, Deputy Legal Adviser to the General Synod

Q1 The Chairman: Bishop, welcome to you and faculty system enables proper care of churches your team to the last meeting of the Ecclesiastical for the benefit of both the Church and the nation. Committee of this Parliament. Perhaps we could The reforms we are considering are based on an start with you introducing, for our benefit, the expressed desire by clergy and in parishes members of your team. to simplify and speed up the faculty system, and The Lord Bishop of Worcester: Indeed. On my far to allow proportionate deregulation, which will right is Alex McGregor, who is deputy legal adviser help to increase compliance and benefit everyone for the . On my right is Timothy involved. Briden, who is Vicar General of the Province of A faculty simplification group was set up, Canterbury. On my left is Christine Hardman, who comprising a chancellor of a diocese, a registrar, a is Prolocutor of the Convocation of Canterbury. diocesan advisory committee chair and secretary, On my far left is William Fittall, who is Secretary and an archdeacon. It was chaired by Anne Sloman, General. who until recently chaired the Church Buildings Council. All stages of the procedure were brought Q2 The Chairman: Thank you. Clearly we are to the table and there was a wealth of practical going to take these three Measures in order. The knowledge about the system. Rather than taking first of them is the bulkiest. Could you start by their own views as a starting point, they embarked telling us something about the background to that on a very extensive round of consultation, Measure? I think you deal with it to some extent surveying people in the parishes: clergy and laity, in your comments and explanations. Could you and diocesan advisory committees—all those give us just the background that led up to this whose responsibility it is to implement the system simplification process? and who have to work with it. The Lord Bishop of Worcester: I shall be pleased to A remarkable consensus emerged from that do so. consultation. It transpired that the faculty system Members of the Committee will be aware that the was highly valued. Only one respondent among Church of England has responsibility for 16,000 many hundreds wanted to abolish it. The consensus church buildings, 45% of them grade I. It is a was that it could be considerably simplified to responsibility that we take very seriously. I might make life easier for all concerned without losing add that I am here because I have just taken over the important safeguards to the significant from the Bishop of London as lead bishop on heritage held in our 12,500 listed parish churches cathedrals and church buildings. throughout the land. To start, I want to say that the entire Measure That is the background to the Measure you have is intended to simplify the faculty system, which before you. It might be worth noting, though is something that we take very seriously. The this is not contained within the Measure, that an 2 234 t h r e p o rt f r o m t h e e c c l e s i a s t i c a l c o m m i tt e e

11 December 2014 The Lord Bishop of Worcester, The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden, Ven Christine Hardman, William Fittall and Alexander McGregor interesting adjunct to this is the proposal that the that is not as successful as one might think. There faculty system goes online, which will make life a are processes in the secular system under which lot easier for everyone involved. mandatory newspaper advertisements are required, and they do not produce very much information or Q3 The Chairman: Thank you very much for response. that. The other way to do it is to require the petitioners Members of the Committee might like to have to give special notice, which would involve them page 3 of the comments and explanations open sending out to the last known address of a potentially while we go through the clauses one by one. There interested party the details of the proposals and an are clearly some on which we are likely to spend opportunity to object. In the last resort, if a family a little more time than others, especially clauses has disappeared from a locality, gone elsewhere 4 and 5, but can we just go through them? Does and left no trace of its whereabouts, there is a limit anyone have any questions about clause 1 of the to what the parish or the chancellor can do to give Measure, dealing with trees in churchyards? If not, notice, but I would emphasise to the Committee clause 2 deals with the powers of archdeacons. that church authorities would have no desire to Are there any questions about that? It is all very ride roughshod over the rights of people whose clearly set out, if I may say so, in the comments and relatives were buried in the potential footprint of explanations. Clause 3? No. a property. Indeed, there have been occasions over We may perhaps spend a little more time on clause the years when a petition to build an extension to 4, which is on disused burial grounds. I know that a church, for example, has been refused because of Lord Elton has given notice of some questions that the level of opposition to the proposal from people he would like to ask about that. in that class. Lord Elton: In the case that you have illustrated, Q4 Lord Elton: My general concern is about at the point that it reaches you, it becomes not an someone whose father died 70 years ago, but is obligation but something that it is assumed you will still hale and hearty himself and has moved out wish to do. Is there nothing on the face of it that of the parish, perhaps to another province. What says the degree of effort that must be made to trace arrangements are there to make sure that he knows people? he has an opportunity to object? Is he likely to come The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden: That is a matter back and find a village hall or whatever standing on in part for the rules of the consistory court, which the spot that he had come to visit? are laid down by way of statutory instrument, The Lord Bishop of Worcester: I will look to my right and in part it is a matter for the practice of the for a response to that, if I may. chancellors. I have indicated what my practice is, The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden: My Lord, and I envisage that as the practice of the generality perhaps I can give some assistance on that. The of chancellors. proposed arrangements for building on disused burial grounds involve a faculty being obtained Q5 Lord Elton: On page 5 of the notes, at from the consistory court. It flows from that, that paragraph 32, there is a reference to the consistory appropriate notice has to be given to interested court adopting its “normal approach” for the parties. Although proposed new subsection (2) protection of human remains. What is that refers to the 50-year period as being a trigger for approach? the exercise of the power, the fact remains that The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden: The approach, that does not override the rights of an interested which is laid down in decisions of the court, is that party—someone whose relative has been lying in human remains are to be treated in a decent and the ground for more than 50 years would still be an respectful manner. That is the basic principle. The interested party—to become a party to the faculty practice of dealing with human remains potentially proceedings and to object. affected by building works in a churchyard is varied The question then is: what steps are taken to and depends on the particular circumstances. give notice? That matter is at the discretion of One process that finds favour among church the chancellor, who has the power to give special architects and the consistory court is the building directions in relation to the publicity of petitions of structures on piles that are driven between grave for faculties. I envisage, as a chancellor myself, sites so that there is no actual interference with the that if this type of case came before me, I would remains interred. I think it right to say that that be concerned to protect the rights of those families is the preferred solution when there is a risk of who had perhaps moved away from the parish— disturbance. the mobility of the population is, of course, much It is possible by law to exhume human remains greater now than it used to be—and who might from one site in a churchyard and rebury them have an interest in making representations to the elsewhere. Again, that is an exercise carried out court. There are various ways of doing that. One is in a decent and respectful manner, and there are by way of newspaper advertisement. Unfortunately, all sorts of public health and other controls that 234 t h r e p o rt f r o m t h e e c c l e s i a s t i c a l c o m m i tt e e 3

11 December 2014 The Lord Bishop of Worcester, The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden, Ven Christine Hardman, William Fittall and Alexander McGregor regulate that. Those two strategies, as well as the be entitled to make its own representations to the building of very shallow foundations that do not consistory court if so desired. impact on graves at all, are those that are generally The Chairman: If there is nothing else on favoured. I think it right to say that parishes and clause 4, we will move on to clause 5, which is the consistory court would regard with disapproval another important clause dealing with matters that and distaste the idea that a churchyard containing can now be done without a faculty. Are there any human remains is simply dug up and the earth is questions about that clause? moved around willy-nilly to facilitate a building scheme. Q7 Lord Glenarthur: I have one, if I may. It Lord Elton: But the parish is not entitled to object, comes down to the illustrative drafts of rules to is it? be made under section 5 on pages 14, 15 and The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden: Normally the subsequently. First, how illustrative are they, and parish, in the sense of the members of the parochial how can they be amended to include things that church council, would be petitioners in support— may not yet be included in them? Particularly when Lord Elton: Thank you very much; I do not think it comes to the removal of furniture and the fitting you need to say more. of other things, I notice that no tonal alterations can The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden: The individual be made to any bell. Organs can be maintained, parishioners have the right to make an objection. but tonal alterations, major dismantling and so on They have a sufficient interest in the case to object cannot be undertaken. if they wish to do so. One of the effects of introducing carpets into The Chairman: Mrs Spelman, does your question churches, which I have come across more than arise from the same matter? once, has been a massive change to the acoustics of the church when it comes to sacred music. Has Q6 Mrs Spelman: It is on the same subject. that been considered, or can the illustrative drafts I have been listening intently, so can you give some be readily amended to encompass things that are comfort in this case? The Ministry of Defence not generally thought of as being a problem? wishes to sell off Biggin Hill chapel and its burial The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden: My Lord, if ground as part of a commercial development. The I may assist on this clause. The purpose of clause 5 Bishop of Rochester consecrated Biggin Hill chapel is to enable the Rule Committee to provide rules, after the second world war and many veterans of which the drafts are illustrations. They are a work are buried there, including—I must declare an in progress and will not be finalised until after the interest—my father-in-law, who was a glider pilot. Measure has received parliamentary sanction. The Will this Measure make it any less or more difficult short answer is: yes, there will be the opportunity for the remaining members of the deceased’s family to look at this again. However, that is not the end to object to the commercial development of that of the matter because it is envisaged that when site? Does it weaken or strengthen the process, and the Rule Committee has completed making these does it offer any comfort to families who want to rules, it will not simply cease to function. It will protect their loved ones’ remains? reassemble periodically for the purpose of making The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden: This operates alterations to the lists and to keep pace with the on two levels. One is, of course, that in the context changes in society generally, which have an impact of the general development of the site, of which this on what works are to be done in a church. is a consecrated part, there is the means to make As a further safeguard, there is the provision that, objection under planning law. Also under planning over and above these minimum items specified in the law there is a statutory power to remove the legal draft rules, individual chancellors will have the power effects of consecration from consecrated land. If that to expand that which may be done without a faculty. happens, the matter falls to be dealt with exclusively The chancellors will not normally be able to remove under planning law and the ecclesiastical courts no items from the list, except in specific circumstances, longer have jurisdiction. If, however—and so long but it will be possible for chancellors to expand as—ecclesiastical law continues to apply, it would matters. If, for example, something needs to be be necessary for a faculty to be obtained for the done on a somewhat urgent basis before the Rule reuse of the land. Committee can meet, the chancellors will be able to Obviously, I cannot speak for the Bishop or the address that. That is the generality of the situation. Chancellor of Rochester but, that being said, I turn specifically to the question of carpets. My the position of the war dead is one, we know, of Lord, as you have indicated, carpets are a sensitive particular sensitivity, and it is just the sort of case matter. They can affect acoustics, and the fabric where a 50-year rule would not be particularly of the church by trapping moisture where it ought compelling so far as the ecclesiastical courts were not to be trapped. For many years, it has been concerned. In principle, there is no reason why a recognised that that is a potentially difficult matter. veterans’ association would not have a legitimate Therefore, when the Rule Committee came to do interest in an application of this sort, and it would some work on list B, towards the bottom of page 4 234 t h r e p o rt f r o m t h e e c c l e s i a s t i c a l c o m m i tt e e

11 December 2014 The Lord Bishop of Worcester, The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden, Ven Christine Hardman, William Fittall and Alexander McGregor

20—the part of the list over which the archdeacon routine in the sense that they do not involve an has control—there is an item, “The replacement intervention into the fabric of the church. Examination of Witnesses: Ecclesiastical Property Measure of carpets or other floor covering and underlay”. A The Venerable Clive Mansell, Archdeacon of Tonbridge and Chair of the Steering Committee for parish would be entitled, subject to the archdeacon’s Q10 The Chairman: Thank you very much. the Measure, Robert Key, Chair of the Revision Committee, William Fittall, Secretary General, permission, to replace that which has already been Unless there is anything else on clause 5, clause Archbishops’ Council, and Saira Salimi, Deputy Official Solicitor, . there. If, for example, the chancel was carpeted 6 deals again with the membership of the Rule and the carpet wore out, the parish would be able Committee. Are there any questions on that? It is to seek permission for a replacement. What is not fairly straightforward. Clause 7 is a matter which possible under the provision is an extended or a I know will create interest for Lady Butler-Sloss fresh carpeting scheme. That will require a faculty and myself—a rather subtle point. Are there any because of the very implications to which you have questions other than the ones that she and I would drawn attention. like to ask? No questions. It deals, as I understand it, with a very technical point. If a question has been Q8 Lord Glenarthur: That is very helpful; raised relating to “doctrine, ritual or ceremonial” in thank you very much indeed. May I add one more the court below, it does not have to go to the Court question? Just above the replacement of carpets in of Ecclesiastical Causes Reserved, unless that very list B, there is information about the “introduction same point is being raised again. Is that the point? of portable audio-visual equipment”. One thing The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden: That is exactly that I am aware of—I declare an interest, because the point, my Lord. The difficulty has arisen I play the organ in church—is the introduction because parishes often put in composite petitions of small cameras which can be used to see the which contain, say, half a dozen matters. One of conductor, with a little screen which appears on them involves doctrine, ritual or ceremonial. The the music desk or somewhere adjacent to it. Does chancellor gives his authority to that, but he refuses that require special permission? Is it encompassed some other item which is not in the reserved within “audio-visual equipment”? Can it be done? category. Under the law as it was, the chancellor It says here: “No equipment is fixed to the fabric had to certify that it involved a reserved matter of the church”. You probably have to fix on a because the language of the Measure and the small camera, which is very tiny. Can that be done decided authorities indicated that that was what he without a faculty? had to do. The alteration enables him to certify that The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden: That depends it is a reserved matter only if it is the subject matter on whether any alteration is required to the of the appeal itself. mains supply. If it is simply a matter of plugging The Chairman: I follow. I think that Lady Butler- an additional item of equipment into an existing Sloss and I will be very happy, although we will be mains supply, that does not present a problem. But losing some of our jurisdiction. we are very strict in not allowing parishes to make Baroness Butler-Sloss: Since we haven’t sat for alterations to the installed circuitry of the church the last 20 years, I do not think that it is going to without a faculty, because of the risk that people matter. who are not proper electricians may do potentially The Chairman: It might happen; you never dangerous things. know. Is there anything on clause 8? Again, that is fairly straightforward. Clause 9 is straightforward. Q9 The Chairman: I have a general question on Any questions? Clause 10. Anything else generally clause 5. Are there any other questions on clause 5? on that Measure? Is there anything that anybody The only question I wanted to ask was about the wishes to add before we go on to the Ecclesiastical distinction drawn between what are called routine Property Measure? Again, it is pretty technical— matters and what are called minor matters. As I actually, not technical, but quite important. Would understand it, those are two of the same things. No you like to say anything in general? distinction is meant to be drawn. The distinction is between those things covered by list A, which Q11 Lord Laming: May I say that the voting can be done without a faculty at all, and those in the Synod on this last Measure represents things which can only be done with the consent a considerable achievement and it ought to be of the DAC or the archdeacon. Is that the basic acknowledged by the earlier team? distinction? William Fittall: Just for the sake of the record, could The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden: That is the basic I correct a figure that was given in the introduction? distinction, and the point of the distinction is that We have 16,000 buildings and they constitute 45% list A is ultimately derived from existing chancellors’ of the grade I listed buildings of England. I do not minor works lists. have to hand what proportion of that 16,000 are The Chairman: I see. grade I, but more than three quarters are listed, The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden: List B contains whether as grade I, grade II or grade II*. The 45% matters which potentially could not be simply relates to all the listed buildings in England. described as “minor” but, on the other hand, are The Chairman: Thank you. That is very helpful. 234 t h r e p o rt f r o m t h e e c c l e s i a s t i c a l c o m m i tt e e 5

11 December 2014 Ven Clive Mansell, Robert Key, William Fittall and Saira Salimi routine in the sense that they do not involve an intervention into the fabric of the church. Examination of Witnesses: Ecclesiastical Property Measure

The Venerable Clive Mansell, Archdeacon of Tonbridge and Chair of the Steering Committee for Q10 The Chairman: Thank you very much. the Measure, Robert Key, Chair of the Revision Committee, William Fittall, Secretary General, Unless there is anything else on clause 5, clause Archbishops’ Council, and Saira Salimi, Deputy Official Solicitor, Church Commissioners. 6 deals again with the membership of the Rule Committee. Are there any questions on that? It is fairly straightforward. Clause 7 is a matter which Q12 The Chairman: This Measure is to relax the However, members of the Archbishops’ Council I know will create interest for Lady Butler-Sloss requirement in relation to short leases. Would you acknowledged that the Parochial Church Councils and myself—a rather subtle point. Are there any like to give any further explanation? (Powers) Measure 1956 was passed some time ago. questions other than the ones that she and I would The Venerable Clive Mansell: Lord Chairman, shall I The legal and regulatory environment has changed like to ask? No questions. It deals, as I understand introduce my team alongside me here? I am Clive considerably since then. It has therefore agreed it, with a very technical point. If a question has been Mansell, I am the Archdeacon of Tonbridge and that a modest degree of deregulation would be very raised relating to “doctrine, ritual or ceremonial” in I chaired the Steering Committee on this draft desirable. That is the point at which you began to the court below, it does not have to go to the Court Measure. On my left is Robert Key, a former ask me questions a few moments ago. of Ecclesiastical Causes Reserved, unless that very Member of Parliament; he chaired the Revision The draft Measure makes three substantive same point is being raised again. Is that the point? Committee. On my right is, Saira Salimi, who is changes to the Parochial Church Councils (Powers) The Rt Worshipful Timothy Briden: That is exactly our legal advisor and William Fittall, the Secretary Measure 1956. First, it removes the requirement the point, my Lord. The difficulty has arisen General, who you have heard from already. for a PCC to obtain the consent of the diocesan because parishes often put in composite petitions The Measure makes some modest changes to authority before bringing legal proceedings—for which contain, say, half a dozen matters. One of update the regime for real property and for property example to evict squatters or non-paying tenants them involves doctrine, ritual or ceremonial. The held on permanent trust belonging to parochial from parish property. If this Measure is passed, it chancellor gives his authority to that, but he refuses will be for a PCC to decide in every case whether it some other item which is not in the reserved church councils and held for charitable purposes. It category. Under the law as it was, the chancellor also makes some parallel changes to the regime for is in its interests to bring court proceedings. had to certify that it involved a reserved matter certain trusts where the incumbents and church- Secondly, it extends the length of lease that can because the language of the Measure and the wardens are the trustees. At present, the legal title be granted without reference to the diocesan decided authorities indicated that that was what he to all PCC—parochial church council—land is authority. Under section 6, as it stands, a short had to do. The alteration enables him to certify that vested in the diocese, which holds it as trustee for lease is defined as a lease for a year or less. The new it is a reserved matter only if it is the subject matter the PCC. The dioceses’ consent is required for all draft Measure provides that a short lease is a lease of the appeal itself. kinds of transactions, with the exception of leases for seven years or less, aligning this requirement The Chairman: I follow. I think that Lady Butler- of one year or less. The trigger for the Measure with the controls on dispositions of land under the Sloss and I will be very happy, although we will be was a private member’s motion at the July 2012 Charities Act 2011, which apply only to leases of losing some of our jurisdiction. group of sessions of the General Synod, which more than seven years. Baroness Butler-Sloss: Since we haven’t sat for called for PCCs that are registered with the Charity Thirdly, it provides that the consent of the diocesan the last 20 years, I do not think that it is going to Commission to be able to hold their own property authority is required only for transactions with a matter. legally and beneficially. value in excess of a figure to be specified in an order The Chairman: It might happen; you never The Archbishops’ Council did not support that made by the Archbishops’ Council that will be laid know. Is there anything on clause 8? Again, that is change as it thought that the proposed distinction before the General Synod and Parliament. The fairly straightforward. Clause 9 is straightforward. between registered and unregistered charities Measure goes on to make equivalent provisions for Any questions? Clause 10. Anything else generally would not be workable. It also had concerns about ecclesiastical trusts governed by the Incumbents on that Measure? Is there anything that anybody the ability of some PCCs to manage legal issues. and Churchwardens (Trust) Measure 1964. wishes to add before we go on to the Ecclesiastical While some PCCs are very well resourced and You will see from the briefing paper that the Measure Property Measure? Again, it is pretty technical— have a number of members with legal and property had the overwhelming support of the General actually, not technical, but quite important. Would experience, others are much less well equipped to Synod at final approval—indeed, it was nem con. you like to say anything in general? deal with transactions, and that can be especially We commend the Measure to the Committee. so if there are dimensions not just of charity law The Chairman: I am sorry not to have given you Q11 Lord Laming: May I say that the voting but of unfamiliar ecclesiastical law to the proposed the chance to introduce the other members of your in the Synod on this last Measure represents property transaction. PCCs change over time, and team, but I am very grateful for what you have just a considerable achievement and it ought to be a PCC that had a number of very able members said. It is now simply a question of whether any acknowledged by the earlier team? five years ago will not necessarily continue to have Committee members have questions on those three William Fittall: Just for the sake of the record, could people of equivalent competence in legal matters matters that I think were covered very clearly by I correct a figure that was given in the introduction? now. the Archdeacon. If not, then thank you very much. We have 16,000 buildings and they constitute 45% of the grade I listed buildings of England. I do not have to hand what proportion of that 16,000 are grade I, but more than three quarters are listed, whether as grade I, grade II or grade II*. The 45% relates to all the listed buildings in England. The Chairman: Thank you. That is very helpful. 6 234 t h r e p o rt f r o m t h e e c c l e s i a s t i c a l c o m m i tt e e

11 December 2014 William Fittall

Examination of Witnesses: Church of England (Pensions) (Amendment) Measure

Witness: William Fittall, Secretary General, Archbishops’ Council

The Chairman: Is it right that it is the same team quite big sums of money. It is very important for for the next Measure? Or is there a different team? the overall management of the Church’s finances William Fittall: I think we had had an indication that the Commissioners can continue to be able to that you were unlikely to ask questions on the draw on capital in that way. Pensions Measure, but the legal adviser and I are The Chairman: Any other questions? No. very happy to answer any questions that you may We shall, in the usual way, consider whether we have about it. As you know, it is simply a renewal, regard the three Measures as expedient and let you for a further period of time, of a power that you know in due course. As this is the last meeting of have already approved in legislation on a number the Ecclesiastical Committee in this Parliament, I of occasions. would like to express, on behalf of all Committee The Chairman: Are there any questions on the members, our thanks for the unfailing help that we pensions Measure? have had from all the members of the Legislative Committee over the past five years. Your notes Q13 Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: May and explanations are always so clear and so good. I ask a question that is not about the pensions Without them, we would be lost, but with your themselves? Out of interest, how many pensioners help, we have got through all right, so thank you does the Church of England currently support and very much. how many is it likely to support in future? Is that I also thank all members of the Ecclesiastical trend up or down? Committee for turning up faithfully to our meetings. William Fittall: I do not have in my head the precise On this occasion, however, I thank above all Sir number, but the Church of England Pensions Tony Baldry, because this is his last meeting—he Board runs a number of schemes for both the will no longer be with the Committee after this clergy and people who have served the Church Parliament. His service has been truly remarkable in other capacities—for example, Church Army over many years and we are very grateful indeed. evangelists and lay workers. I think that the number [Applause.] is upwards of 20,000, but I would need to write if Sir Tony Baldry: My Lord Chairman, thank you want the precise figure. As we know, clergy are you for those kind comments. On behalf of the very long lived, on average, so every time that we whole Committee, I thank you for the exemplary have an actuarial valuation, longevity calculations way in which you have chaired the Ecclesiastical have to be refreshed. Over the next decade, we face Committee over the course of this Parliament. We a very considerable retirement bulge as the baby have had some interesting Measures before us, not boom generation starts to draw pensions. least the women Measure. We have all been The position is that the Church Commissioners extremely grateful for how you have led, steered meet the pension liability for pension service and guided the Committee, so thank you. earned up to the end of 1997, which is what the William Fittall: As I act as the point of continuity Measure is about. Since the beginning of 1998 in these sessions—for which bishops, archbishops although the benefits remained the same, there has and other members of the Synod rotate, depending been a funded scheme, so the dioceses and other on the subject matter—perhaps I might be allowed bodies contribute a proportion of the stipend to on behalf of the General Synod, to thank the build up that pension fund, which is a regulated Committee members. This is indeed the last pension fund in the usual way. The assets of that legislation we have to bring before you in the fund are now worth in excess of £1 billion. As with lifetime of this Parliament. But I can assure you most other pension schemes, it was in deficit at the that the wheels are turning. We have some very last valuation, but there is a deficit recovery plan, of important legislation going to its revision stage at which we are currently a little ahead. the General Synod in February on safeguarding It is undoubtedly a very significant financial and clergy discipline. It is likely to be coming contribution. Dioceses are paying about £70 million forward early in the lifetime of the new Parliament. a year into the new funded pension scheme, and the Hopefully, quite a number of Committee members Church Commissioners are currently paying out will still be here when next we meet. somewhere over £100 million a year in relation to The Chairman: Thank you. Until that meeting, service earned up to the end of 1997, so these are perhaps we should all just say goodbye.

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