the boisi center interviews no. 153: february 18, 2018

martin doblmeier is a filmmaker who has produced or directed over thirty films, mainly on the topics of religion, faith, and spirituality. He spoke via email to Boisi Center interim assistant to the director Jack Nuelle following the Boisi Center’s February 7, 2019 screening and panel discussion of his latest film,Backs Against the Wall: The Howard Thurman Story. The resulting interview has been edited for length, clarity, and content. nuelle: Why make this film, and why make this film now? doblmeier: Backs Against the Wall: The Howard Thurman Story is our second installment in a series of biographical documentary films for national public television that profile seminal religious figures from the 20th century. We call the series “Prophetic Voices.” The first was a film on the great American public theologian, Reinhold Niebuhr. I had the opportunity to present that film at Boston change. He would use the expression that Reinhold Niebuhr was America’s most College back in 2017. The latest film is each of us must “go deep” and discover recognizable public theologian from the on African American theologian Howard the presence of God within. Then acting last century. And now Thurman. Thurman. out of that discovery we will naturally All three were prolific writers who have seek to form community with others. In so many ways, America is only now left a legacy in the written word that And together, within the context of com- catching up with Howard Thurman will be studied for generations to come. munity, real social transformation can and decades after his death we see how Bonhoeffer had the heart of a pastor and take root. prophetic he really was. Thurman was if his world had not been thrown into born the grandson of slaves who went on To my mind, Thurman is not only timely utter chaos with the rise of Hitler he may to become a spiritual mentor for so many – considering how many social move- well have lived the life of a quiet pastor or leading figures in the Civil Rights Move- ments are in process today – he is also university professor. His primary interest ment including Martin Luther King, Jr., timeless. was not revolutionary politics. It was un- Jesse Jackson, Congressman John Lewis derstanding Jesus Christ and discovering nuelle: Two of your films, Bonhoeffer and others. I was fortunate to be able to him in community. and An American Conscience: The Rein- interview some of the remaining Civil hold Niebuhr Story, focus on individual Niebuhr on the other hand was in the Rights icons like Jackson, Lewis, Otis religious leaders who bridge the sacred political trenches from his early pastorate Moss, Jr. and others for the film. It was so and the political. What do you see the in Detroit. It was a natural fit for him. evident from those interviews how much relationship being between religion and Niebuhr spent his long career bringing Thurman inspired them personally and the political world? Also, how does Backs a faith perspective to his public critiques the Movement overall. Against the Wall fit with your other films? of the most important political and social But Thurman’s legacy goes well beyond issues of the day. Everything was fair doblmeier: Bonhoeffer was our film the Civil Rights Movement because game for Niebuhr’s analytical mind and about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the Luther- his focus was always on the centrality courageous pen. an writer and pastor who joined the of one’s own personal religious experi- resistance against Hitler and the Nazis. ence as the starting place for any social 1 the boisi center interview: martin doblmeier Thurman was a very different character. ing himself with students kept him spiri- For Thurman, that central idea of each He rarely spoke directly about particular tually vibrant and hungry. He was always person deepening his or her own reli- political issues. Instead he preferred to in his heart a spiritual adventurer. gious experience fits neatly into our cur- speak to patterns of human behavior, the rent culture where we often hear people Thurman was an activist although again need for deeper personal reflection and describe themselves as “spiritual but not he defies our traditional understand the importance of the individual religious religious.” That sentiment often follows experience. Those who read his work from a disappointment with some aspect or heard him speak were the ones who “I think so many of the great of institutional religion, but also points to would then take those principals and go figures are significant the basic human hunger for the divine. out and apply them to the issues at hand. Thurman understood that and nourished Thurman understood his role as a spir- because they defy our it in himself and everyone around him. itual sage – others would then put that notions of how we classify As a student at Rochester Theological wisdom into social transformation. them, how we box them. in the 1920’s, Thurman was inspired by nuelle: Where does Thurman fit in Thurman was a theologian professor George Cross who immediately the landscape of civil rights leaders? Is he recognized Thurman’s brilliance. But best characterized as a theologian, min- on par with any of other, Cross also sensed Thurman’s inclination ister, or activist? Are those distinctions yet he does not fit neatly toward political and social activism. His clarifying or unnecessary? into a theological box.” advice to the young Thurman was that social and political issues are temporary, doblmeier: The way I often describe and with Thurman’s gifts, his efforts Thurman’s influence on the Civil Rights of an activist who is out on the streets would be more successful and enduring Movement is to make the parallel to marching. He was one of the inspirations if he focused on the more eternal human Thomas Paine and the American Rev- behind the scenes of one of the greatest concerns. Looking at the arc of olution. In reading Paine many of the social and political, non-violent transfor- Thurman’s life and work that is exactly Founders understood the deeper underly- mations the world has ever seen – and what he did. ing implications of their resistance. They that was enough for Thurman. understood what they were fighting for nuelle: What is the most difficult thing was much greater than simply changing nuelle: What are the roles of mystical about presenting a religious leader in a form of government. That it was first theology and the mystical world-view in documentary form? What was the most about the denial of God-given political activism and political change? difficult aspect of creatingBacks Against fundamental human rights. doblmeier: As I point out in the film, the Wall? In the same way, the Civil Rights leaders Thurman is often described as a “mystic” doblmeier: The Howard Thurman would hear Thurman preach and read his although it was a title he never gave him- film is my 33rd documentary film on a classic works like Jesus and the Disinher- self. I think in part that’s a reflection of subject of religion, faith and spirituality. ited and understand what was at stake the times he lived in. Today we would be Over the years we have come to accept the was far greater than themselves. Martin much more comfortable calling someone inherent challenges to presenting reli- Luther King, Jr. and Jesse Jackson actu- a “mystic,” but in the mid-20th century gious and spiritual concepts that live well ally carried Thurman’s works with them when we saw religion almost exclusively below the surface through a medium that when they traveled on those marches through a denominational lens, the term works best telling stories on the surface. that changed American history. What an “mystic” would be much more suspicious Television and film are ideal for depicting extraordinary validation of Thurman. So than today. things visual but our storylines are most despite the fact that Thurman was not As we also pointed out in the film, other often about the interior life. out on the front lines himself, something black pastors were often uneasy with If our films succeed, it is because I seek he was publicly criticized for, he was the idea of Thurman as a mystic. But for out subjects to interview who can help clearly in the hearts and the minds of Thurman the idea of the mystical pointed unpack some of those deeper dimensions those who were. to his emphasis on the personal religious and connect the viewer to more universal How to characterize Thurman? I think experience – the deepening of every in- themes. Then I take that commentary so many of the great figures are signif- dividual’s understanding of God present along with my own writing and narration icant because they defy our notions of within each of us. He was someone who and combine it with a visual presentation how we classify them, how we box them. admired the great Quaker writer, Rufus that hopefully captures the audience. Thurman was a theologian on par with Jones, who emphasized the notion of the For me, one of the great challenges any other, yet he does not fit neatly into ”inner light” within each of us. Accepting with the Howard Thurman film was a theological box. He was a minister but that inner light within each of us dramat- to acknowledge that most of the wider much of his career was at major univer- ically changes the way we engage others. audience would not know Thurman. I sities, not local congregations. Surround-

2 the boisi center interview: martin doblmeier had to find a way to get a wider audience openly about a “love ethic” as the most immediately wrapped into this new effective tool to overcome social and character and I felt the best way to do that political injustices. was to “validate” him by connecting him So, for some, speaking of non-violence to Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Civil and a love ethic made Thurman an Rights Movement. inspired, prophetic voice. But for others Also, at the beginning of the film, I who envisioned a more strident, found a clip from a speech Oprah aggressive response to systems of Winfrey gave at the 2013 Harvard injustice, Thurman was disappointing. University commencement where she Some saw Martin Luther King, Jr. in the quoted Howard Thurman. So even if the same light. viewer does not know Howard Thurman, nuelle: What can Thurman teach us they recognize from the start how many about political advocacy and working to respect and celebrate him. language and thinking that is the founda- dismantle systems of oppression today? nuelle: What is the most rewarding, tion for change. doblmeier: Thuman’s example is to compelling, or important thing you His principal work, Jesus and the see political advocacy as something more learned during the production of this Disinherited, focused on how the histor- than marching with banners on the documentary? ical Jesus was born a poor Jew and lived street or even more than lobbying in the doblmeier: When I did the interviews his life as a minority under Roman rule. halls of Congress. Thurman did neither. with these great Civil Rights icons like Since it was first published in 1949, Af- But what he provided was a clear and Jesse Jackson, Congressman John Lewis, rican Americans saw – many for the first universal understanding of the human Otis Moss, Jr. and others, it was clear time – a Jesus who spoke directly out of condition that spoke to his generation of how personally they were inspired and their pain and social prison. That was in leaders and activists who then went out influenced by Howard Thurman. For itself liberating. with renewed purpose. They then chal- them, Thurman was central, not only in lenged injustices and changed the world. But Thurman was careful not to let that their own spiritual lives, but his presence It takes a community of people to change understanding be used to fuel anger and was clear across the entire Civil Rights systems and Thurman was clear about rage. Instead he was one of the first to Movement. the vital role he played in that process of champion a non-violent response, change. But if you read many of the history books inspired by his visit with Mahatma of the Movement you rarely see Thur- Gandhi in 1936. And Thurman spoke [end] man’s name mentioned. That is because he was not out marching on the streets and getting arrested. He saw his role as The Boisi Center for the spiritual sage – the pillar others came Religion and American to for inspiration. Public Life Boston College But when this last generation of Move- 24 Quincy Road ment leaders is gone, there will be no Chestnut Hill, MA 02467 one left to testify to Thurman’s critical role. That concern gave each of us on tel 617-552-1860 the production team a sense of urgency, fax 617-552-1863 believing we had to let people experi- ence Thurman’s key role now so it is not [email protected] forgotten. nuelle: Can you describe Thurman’s Visit bc.edu/boisi-resources boisicenter theology of the disinherited? Is it synony- for a complete set of the Boisi Center Interviews and audio, mous with a theology of liberation? @boisi_center video, photographs, and doblmeier: Howard Thurman is not transcripts from our events. someone you would automatically put in boisi_center the black liberation theology category like a James Cone. But Thurman – while he boisicenter was not calling for the change of systems that perpetuate injustices, was offering

3 the boisi center interview: martin doblmeier