10 Questions for Dean Ken Gormley
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QuesTiOns 1 for 0 Dean Ken Gormley inTervieW By peTeR F. VaiRa enGormley,deanoftheDuquesneUniversitySchoolofLaw, her it benefited her by talking is the author of the bestselling book, The Death of American with me. It took a great deal of Virtue: Clinton vs. Starr timetogainherconfidence.This ,areviewoftheClintonimpeachment. developedoveraperiodoftime. Asidefromtheveryscholarlyresearch,thebookisnoteworthy Shewasveryleeryofmeatfirst, forGormley’sabilitytoobtainpersonal,lengthyinterviewswith becauseshehadbeenburnedby keypersonsinvolvedintheimpeachment,andtheeventsleadinguptotheimpeach- manywriters.Ialsospentalotof K timewithherfatherandmother. ment.Theinformationprovidedbytheparticipantsisnotonlyhistoricallycorrect, itisattimestartling.Thebookanditsaccompanyingnotesareprimaryhistorical Was Ken starr over sources.Thebookisnotonlyagoodread,itisgoodhistory.DeanGormleyisalso his head as the special theauthorofArchibald Cox: Conscience of a Nation,abouttheWatergatescandal. counsel? What about his staff? some persons have PeTER VAIRA: a great deal of your book and a great deal of criticized them as not the credibility of your work is the result of your personal being highly qualified. I have read scott turow’s op-ed interviews with key players in the investigation and article in the new York times criticizing them. impeachment process. How did you approach them, as Ithinkhewasmiscastasaprosecutor.Heisaphenomenallawyer. a journalist, a historian or investigator? He was the Solicitor General of the United States, and sat on the federalD.C.circuit.Hewasbytrainingmoreofanappellatejudge. DEAN GORMLeY: A combination of them all. I have journalistic He did not have the experience or the innate disposition to think experience from college and law school. I was also a litigator for likeaprosecutor.Hetendedtorefertohissubordinates,anddidn’t several years. Putting together a book of this sort, going through appreciatetheleadprosecutorposition.Irecallreadingthatarticle.I documentsandinterviews,ismuchlikepreparingamassivecasefor interviewedStarr’sstaffmembersmanytimes.Theycouldhaveeasily trial. Ilettheindividualstelltheirstories.Iwasnotunderadeadline, dismissedmeastheenemy,buttheycooperated.IrespectedJackie andcouldaffordmultipleinterviews.[Theywerealwaysapproached] BennettandHickmanEwing.Theycametofeelverystronglythatthe throughanintermediarytheytrusted.Quiteoftenitwasthroughtheir ClintonWhiteHousewasstonewallinganddidn’thelpitself. They attorneys.Iwouldneverhavegottenanywherewithacoldcall. werenaturallyaggressive,andovertimecametohaveadeepdisdain forPresidentClinton. How did you get to monica Lewinsky and how did you gain her confidence? You said that you had another observation regarding the Her attorney, Plato Cacheris, urged her to meet with me. He told starr staff, relating to its depth of experience? the philadelphia lawyer Summer 2010 29 PHOTOGRAPHEDBYMartyBarron Yes, there is another important factor about Starr’s staff that has Lewinskymatter. Ontopofthat,Fiskewouldhavewrappeduphis receivedlittleattention.Whatmanyobservershavenotappreciated investigationbeforeMonicaeverenteredthescene. isthatStarrdidnothaveanypersonsrunningtheinvestigationwho hadanyrelationshipwiththemajorplayersintheWashingtonlegal You mentioned in your book that you discovered a community. What helps in a high-profile case of this sort is well proposed indictment of Hillary Clinton? respected persons who could call lawyers representing witnesses Iamoneofthefewpersonstohaveeverseenit.Iamquitesurethat andPresidentClintonandtalklawyertolawyerinordertoavoid President and Mrs. Clinton have never seen it. It was a proposed standoffsandtrainwrecks.Starrwasnotaprosecutorandhedidnot indictmentofHillaryClintonandWebsterHubbell.Ifounditamong haveheavyweightsofthisstatureonhisstaff.Heneededsomeone somedocumentswhereitshouldnothavebeen.Giventhelocation likeChuckRufforDaveMargolis,wellknowninWashington,who whereIfoundit,itwasveryclearthatitwasauthentic.Although couldmakeacalltotheWhiteHouseandworkoutproblems. thereweresomemembersofKenStarr’sstaffwhofavoredindicting Mrs.Clinton,thestaffeventuallyturneditdown.Whatwasintriguing What about the dismissal of robert Fiske as the wasthetiming—itwasclearthatthiswasatactictobringpressure independent counsel, and replacing him with starr? on the Clintons when Monica Lewinsky was not cooperating, to Thatwasunfortunate.BobFiskewastheperfectpersonforthejob. causesomeonetocrackinordertomakethecriminalcaseagainst UnlikeStarr,Bobhadspentalongtimeinthefederalprosecutor’s thePresident. office.HewastheformerUnitedStatesAttorneyfortheSouthern District of New York. He treated the investigation like a special How did monica Lewinsky decide to cooperate with prosecutorshould. HemovedtoArkansasandquithislawfirmjob. the starr prosecutors? Fiske’spositionwasthatwhenyouareinvestigatingthePresident ShehiredPlatoCacherisandJakeSteinasherlawyers.Theywere oftheUnitedStatesyourobligationasspecialcounselistogetin experiencedprofessionalsandmadeitcleartheywouldnotengage thereandgetthejobdone.Fiske’sprosecutorstoldmethatifFiske inamediacircusasdidherfirstattorneyBillGinsburg.Cacherisand wasthespecialcounselhewouldhavenevertouchedtheMonica Steindidnotengageingameswiththeprosecutorseither.Ginsburgis 30 the philadelphia lawyer Summer 2010 Starr was not a prosecutor and he did not have heavyweights of this stature on his staff. He needed formerly someone like Chuck Ruff or Dave Margolis, well known in Washington, • Menus & recipes from the who could make a call to the White Philadelphia region’s best restaurants. House and work out problems. • Corporate publishing sponsorship by American Express® acolorfulcharacter.Hisspecialtyismedical Paula Jones case, was one. She handled • Affiliated with the national website, malpractice and not criminal defense. The the case very professionally. Ken Starr’s www.americascuisine.com. Clintonpeoplecomplimentedhimfortying group came swooping in and interfered iPhone application available. the special prosecutor’s staff in knots and with her case. Congress then launched the • The perfect resource for choosing keepingMonicaoutofthegrandjuryforsix impeachment proceeding. She stayed away the best restaurant for your clients, months, largely through playing the media. from politics and waited until the entire employees or personal use. PlatoCacheriswasallbusinessandmadeit political matter was settled. She then held clearhewasrepresentingMonicaLewinsky, Clinton in contempt for lying under oath • Can be used to book your next catering affair. andthatwashisonlyjob. andfinedhim.Curiously,KenStarrandthe House of Representatives had cajoled an • Great gift idea for your employees In the book you describe Dave impeachmentvotebeforeanycourthadfound and customers. schippers, the attorney for the that Clinton’s perjury was material, which house impeachment team, as being wouldhavepotentiallyprovidedabasisfor a vigorous prosecutor. Curiously, impeachment. There was no evidence to COMING schippers is a very strong Democrat. back up that impeachment charge.When it LATE FALL 2010. You state that schippers had a plan alldieddown,JudgeWrightfoundhisfalse to subpoena material from Janet statementswarrantedarelativelysmallfine, Contact Richard Marx, Publisher reno, the attorney General. What andtreatedhimlikeanyothercivillitigant at 610.848.6022 or was that plan? who had failed to tell the truth in her civil [email protected] Davehadhisowngameplanforprosecuting proceedings. thecase.Hewasveryfirminwantingtogo Finally, I believe that theAmerican public for more information. fullsteamaheadwiththeimpeachmenteffort. deserves a Profile in Courage Award for Advance orders accepted. Both Schippers and Congressman Henry letting the Senate know that this was Hyde were trying to expand the articles overblown and they wanted to end it. of impeachment to include allegations Opinion polls and letters told the Senators involving President Clinton’s and Vice howthepublicfelt. President Al Gore’s fundraising activities in theWhite House. Janet Reno would not What will you do with the massive pursue the allegations. Schippers told me amount of resource material you thattheywerepreparedtoissueasubpoena have obtained? I believe a great from the impeachment committee to Janet deal of it is what historians call Reno. If she refused to appear or produce original source material. documentstheywouldhavemovedtohold EventuallyIplantodonateittotheLibrary her in contempt and hold her in a jail-type ofCongressorsomeeducationalinstitution facility until she complied. Congressman so that it will be available to historians, HydegaveSchipperspermissiontoproceed educators, political scientists and future in this fashion, but the Senate refused to generations of citizens interested in this expandtheinvestigationinthisfashion. difficultbutfascinatingperiodofAmerican history. In all this, were there any persons who deserved a John Kennedy – Peter F. Vaira ([email protected]), a profile in Courage award? partner with Vaira & Riley, P.C., is a member Judge Susan Webber Wright, the District of the Editorial Board of The Philadelphia Court judge in Arkansas who handled the Lawyer. www.philadelphiacuisine.com the philadelphia lawyer Summer 2010 31.