Vol. 729 Friday No. 184 15 July 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Coinage (Measurement) Bill Second Reading Live Music Bill [HL] Committee Rehabilitation of Offenders (Amendment) Bill [HL] Committee Media: News Corporation Motion to Take Note Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2011, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU; email: [email protected] 983 Coinage (Measurement) Bill[15 JULY 2011] Coinage (Measurement) Bill 984

I am sure that your Lordships will appreciate that House of Lords this removes a technical and legislative obstacle to the proposed Olympic coins and will allow the Royal Mint Friday, 15 July 2011. to develop and continue to develop new and innovative 10 am designs and exciting opportunities to continue to push coinage boundaries. We hope that our 2012 Olympics Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Chester. will be the best Olympic coin programme to date—and, of course, it will be self-funding. Coinage (Measurement) Bill The striking of kilogram coins has recently become Second Reading part of the Olympic Games tradition. Most other host 10.05 am nations in recent years, such as Australia, Canada and China, have issued coins of this type and they have Moved By Lord Risby been extremely popular. Indeed, in the past 10 years Lord Risby: My Lords, apparently, the Olympic over 40,000 Olympic kilogram coins have been issued Games organisers some 2,531 years ago introduced around the world. The Bill will allow the Royal Mint the idea of coins for those games to appease those who to continue this tradition in commemoration of the were not able to get seats to watch them. I do not London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games—and, know if there is any particular parallel to be drawn indeed, any future important cultural or national events, from our current situation, but that is not the essence subject to the approval of Her Majesty the Queen, the of what this Bill is all about. Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Royal Mint Advisory Committee. I am grateful for the opportunity to present the Bill to the House this morning. Initially, therefore, I will Because of their large size, the kilogram coins will deal with its technical aspects. This two-clause Bill be an exciting, artistic and eye-catching part of the makes a minor technical amendment to the Coinage Olympic Games. The intention is for them to be Act 1971, which governs the striking of coins by the significant works of numismatic art. The Royal Mint Royal Mint and contains various standards in respect would approach high-profile artists to prepare these of a coin’s weight, fineness, composition and dimensions designs, and that is under way. Currently, the plan is to with which coins struck by the Royal Mint must produce 60 gold coins and 14,000 silver coins, with a comply. The Act also makes provision for permitted nominal value of £1,000 and £500 respectively. Judging variations from those standards. Section 1(6) of the from the reception that similar coins have had around Coinage Act 1971 requires that the variation from the the world, and after consulting with representatives of standard weight of any coin be measured as the average the coin trade and collectors, the Royal Mint is confident of a sample of not more than 1 kilogram of that coin. that United Kingdom kilogram coins will be extremely This is perfectly fit for the purpose for which it was well received. These coins are being produced to the originally conceived. The current weights of UK highest standards of socially responsible business, and circulating coins range from the 5-pence piece at the accreditation has been given. 3.25 grams to the £2 coin at 12 grams. A sample of a The Royal Mint proposes to make its kilogram kilogram is therefore a perfectly reasonable measure coins from 22-carat gold and fine silver. These coins of the tolerated variation from the standard weight. will be the largest ever UK coins, with a diameter of However, circulating coins is just once part of the 10 centimetres. The Olympic programme would generate Royal Mint’s business. As with all good businesses, it is royalties for both London 2012 and the Exchequer, constantly seeking to evolve, expand and explore new as the Royal Mint corporate entity is 100 per cent technologies and commercial opportunities. Such a owned by Her Majesty’s Treasury. Under the UK coin commercial opportunity, of course, is presenting itself contract, the Royal Mint pays a royalty to Her Majesty’s in that London will next year be hosting the Olympic Treasury for commemorative coins. It is estimated that and Paralympic Games. To commemorate this historic the Olympic coin programme, including the kilogram occasion the Royal Mint has designed an Olympic coins, would generate an estimated royalty payment coin programme that is likely to be one of the largest of approximately £2 million. At the current prices, ever in the history of the Olympics. It is worth visiting 1 kilogram of gold costs approximately £32,000 and the Royal Mint’s website. Its 29 coins have been struck 1 kilogram of silver costs approximately £750. The for each of the 29 participating sports. We should retail prices are therefore likely, on today’s estimates, congratulate the Royal Mint on the quality of its designs. to be £40,000 and £1,250 respectively. As part of that programme, the Royal Mint is keen Through these royalties, the Olympic coin programme to strike kilogram coins. As I set out earlier, the will contribute to funding the London 2012 Olympic current wording of the coinage act would effectively and Paralympic Games. This is of course a commercial prohibit this. It is not possible to measure the variation enterprise and the Olympic coin programme will also from the standard weight in the case of the proposed generate revenue for the Royal Mint. The amount that Olympics coins because the weight of each coin is the Royal Mint will make will depend on sales and on likely to be equal to or greater than the 1 kilogram the final price of the coins, which will largely be aggregate limit in Section 1(6) of the Act. Clause 1 of determined by the price of gold and silver closer to the the Bill therefore amends the Coinage Act so that the event. The Royal Mint being 100 per cent owned by variation from the standard weight of any coin can be the Treasury, all profits will end up in the public purse. specified by royal proclamation as provided for in For the past three years, the Royal Mint has paid a Section 3 of the Coinage Act 1971. That provides dividend from profits directly back to the Treasury as flexibility. a shareholder. 985 Coinage (Measurement) Bill[LORDS] Coinage (Measurement) Bill 986

[LORD RISBY] commemorative coins. In 1986, my noble friend Lord Noble Lords will be reassured to hear that these Lawson, as Chancellor of the Exchequer and, therefore, kilogram coins form just one part of a whole range of Master of the Mint, and I had the honour of presenting products that the Royal Mint is issuing to commemorate a coin for Her Majesty’s approval. That coin was a the 2012 Olympics. The striking of kilogram coins will £2 piece, which was connected to the holding of the not be limited to commemorating the Olympics. To 13th Commonwealth Games in Scotland at that time. ensure that London 2012 and future events of national Could we have launched a £2 coin for currency at that significance can be appropriately celebrated with stage? I do not believe that we could. We had just been commemorative coins that will be held in posterity for through rather a traumatic period, trying to get public years to come, it is first necessary to make these minor acceptance of the £1 coin because people were so amendments to the Coinage Act 1971. Therefore, I attached to their £1 notes. Time moves on and larger commend the Bill to the House. I beg to move. coins are now acceptable. 10.13 am I shall make just a few comments, first about the size and format of the coinage, and secondly about Lord Addington: My Lords, when it fell to me to say design. Since the Middle Ages the English currency a few words about this Act, a variety of things came to has been based on a weight relationship. A sixpence mind. A coin that weighs a kilo is certainly not small contained half as much silver as a shilling, and so on change or something that might be used in payment. throughout the range of values. I remember 40 or Indeed, looking at the practicalities of putting these more years ago, when I was a trainee cashier in the into circulation, I rapidly came to the answer that it City, that coins were sometimes counted using a shovel. would not happen. Therefore, calling them medals Since their weights were all in relation to each other, might have confused one or two of us rather less in the you could quickly assess how much money you had. initial stages. However, from what the noble Lord, Lord Risby, has said, it is clear that such a coin would If you have a handful of change, there will be a be either an investment or something that is kept. The mixture of round and seven-sided shapes, but it is only appropriate reference that I can find in literature difficult to feel or see at a glance how much is in your is from Douglas Adams. One of his characters in Life, hand. That has come about—I am sure it was not in the Universe and Everything tries to pay with an American any sense a policy—through the gradual replacement Express card millions of light years away from Earth, of denominations, one after the other. This has meant saying that they are accepted everywhere. The image that there is a changing size slot for the introduction of of paying for something with this, using it as a normal new coins. However, the result is that it has not been coin, is almost incomprehensible to the average person. very easy for those who use them. I suggest that this is a very good thing—a small thing but a good thing. I hope it will add a little to the whole As to design, the Olympic coinage will identify experience of the Olympic Games. itself prominently. However, since the 1990s, special commemorative coins have been issued for other reasons, 10.14 am celebrating greater or lesser occasions. The £2 coin Baroness Grey-Thompson: My Lords, I fully support that one is most likely to find in one’s pocket was the Bill. I declare an interest since I work for the introduced in 1997 to celebrate technological progress London Organising Committee of the Olympic and from the Industrial Revolution to the computer age. It Paralympic Games in several areas, going back to the shows one circle of buttons and another of what look bid stages. The production of a commemorative coin like casts of a bunch of inebriated worms. More is most welcome, not purely because of the interest of inspiration has subsequently been applied to this process. a significant number of collectors. The fact that the The design of the 2003 commemorative £2 coin, which Royal Mint is the licensee for these coins and they will looks a bit like a skipping rope to me, is meant to show be made in the UK is also most welcome. the double helical structure of DNA. I would put big money on no other noble Lord having any idea about London 2012 has led the world of sport in showing that; I did not myself until I looked it up for this the inclusion and diversity of disabled athletes. A debate. 50p coin is currently in circulation that shows wheelchair rugby, which is a unique sport in the Paralympic There needs to be a degree of abstinence about Games. The Paralympic reputation is incredibly strong striking commemorative coins. They are good and around the world. The production of these coins will interesting but, if you overdo it, it rather spoils the send a strong message. It is more than a commemorative market for specialist collectors. The other problem is coin; it shows how British society values diversity. that there is a temptation to use designs which are not While the Olympics and Paralympics have been widely familiar, such as the DNA one. The £2 coin is mentioned, I hope that the Paralympic coin will also not really suitable for abstract or complex designs, be included. I ask that consideration be given to, and even though it has often been used in that way. I make strongly encourage, continuing this positive message a plea that commemorative coins should not have by producing Paralympic coins, which I see as a very designs that are too crowded. We should resist temptation important part of our Paralympic legacy. to cram in as much as possible. We should leave it simple. There is no point in commemorating things if 10.15 am nobody recognises them. I entirely support what my Lord Stewartby: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend and the noble Baroness have said. I hope noble friend Lord Risby for the clarity with which he that the new coin arrangements will be satisfactory introduced the Bill. I have a long-standing interest in and profitable. 987 Coinage (Measurement) Bill[15 JULY 2011] Coinage (Measurement) Bill 988

The Lord Bishop of Chester: My Lords, I speak in Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, this House is the gap to seek an explanation. The Bill refers to always informative on all occasions. I was aware of Section 1(6) of the Coinage Act 1971, but the version Henry Tudor’s Welsh origins. I have never had any of the Coinage Act that the Printed Paper Office is difficulty locating the circumstances of his birth and handing out does not have a Section 1(6), so has the his commitment to Wales, although I do have great Coinage Act 1971 been amended in the intervening difficulty locating the relevant battlefield, given that period? Could we have an explanation of how the historians have doubts about where Bosworth is located. sections tie up? Baroness O’Cathain: Noble Lords who have visited 10.21 am the Supreme Court will note that the Welsh dragon is Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, there are few not represented on the arms of the Supreme Court but joys of being in opposition but one of them is not the leek is. Is that because the dragon is extinct? having to answer a question like that at short notice. I sympathise with the Minister in that regard. Lord Davies of Oldham: I do not know about that. I The Opposition warmly welcome the Bill. On the have never had any hesitation about the Welsh leek, innumerable occasions on which I spoke in this House nor the Welsh daffodil, which is somewhat prettier and as the former Minister responsible for DCMS, I never has a less pungent and unattractive smell. I hear what recall the issue of coinage crossing my desk when I the noble Baroness says; I merely indicate that I have spoke about the progress of the Olympic Games bid not seen an ordinary coin in circulation which reflects and its development. Here is yet another dimension of the Welsh dragon, although the Welsh dragon is an the Olympics which I heartily applaud. I think that, at important symbol of Wales. I am surprised that the times, we all must have some reservations about the Royal Mint has not represented that dimension. extent to which the Olympic Games, which were born of the great amateur tradition in Greece and were sustained for a considerable period in the world in Lord Davies of Coity: With the extinction of the their modern form in amateur terms, have become Welsh dragon, is it not more appropriate to say that commercialised. Here we are, a century or so after the the dragon that was slain by St George is also extinct? modern Games were established, in an era in which everything is fairly professional and everything is likely Lord Davies of Oldham: I am not sure about that. to be commercial. It grates at times when you see some St George is venerated in about eight other countries English teams proudly bearing the logos of major in addition to England. I do not think that there has international companies. I hope that no British team ever been any suggestion that the evil monster that he bears the insignia of News International. If there is, it struck down was a Welsh dragon—far from it, I have would be well advised to drop it fairly quickly. However, never seen a depiction of the dragon that St George corporate logos play an important part in the Games; destroyed which remotely resembles the red dragon of I guess that that is inevitable in this modern age. Wales. I am sure that my noble friend will agree with However, we should have no reservations about the that. Royal Mint commemorating the Games and producing It is important to empower the Mint not just in coins which are likely to produce a fairly healthy terms of commemorating the Olympic Games and the profit. I know that the Minister will seize with both Paralympic Games. I am very grateful to the noble hands the opportunity to praise this example of public Baroness for introducing that important dimension. enterprise. The Royal Mint has had an exceptionally We hope that the World Athletics Championships will good record, both while it was at the Tower of London also be a success and that we can resolve that small and now that it is in Llantrisant in south Wales. It is a matter which seems to be continually contested by a hugely successful enterprise. There is no doubt that club for which I have a great affection, Tottenham the minting of these coins will result in significant gain Hotspur, about what is going to happen to the Olympic to the Mint as the commemorative coins will be greatly stadium. We have to get the Olympic stadium’s future valued. absolutely clear, otherwise our ability to bid for significant I emphasise that there are aspects of the transfer of events such as the World Athletics Championships the Royal Mint to Llantrisant which have not been will be damaged. The World Athletics Championships exemplified greatly in its products. I have never seen are not quite of the same significance as the Olympic the Welsh dragon on any British coin. Given the Games but they are important sporting events in location of the Royal Mint, it seems strange to me that which the country takes great pride. We want the Mint it does not ensure that its ordinary coins bear some to look at the serious issue of commemorating those reference to Wales. That would not apply to all coins, events as well and this Bill will empower it to do that. of course, but we recognise that aspects of the United We should certainly be concerned about legacy Kingdom are represented on £1 coins. However, the because we would never have succeeded with the Olympics Welsh dragon, which is by far the most emphatic bid if we had not emphasised the Games’ very significant symbol of Wales, is not. legacy for this country, particularly for deprived sections of the country such as east London. Commemoration Lord Stewartby: I wonder whether the noble Lord is is also important. This Bill gives us the opportunity to familiar with the gold sovereign of Henry VII, which commemorate the Games in a very distinctive way. has a Welsh dragon on it. It is very small but it is quite That is why I am delighted to applaud the Bill. The easy to identify it. Opposition give it their full support. 989 Coinage (Measurement) Bill[LORDS] Live Music Bill [HL] 990

10.30 am the London 2012 Games as a whole. The entire Olympic coin programme has been developed in collaboration Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I start by thanking my with LOCOG. It and the Royal Mint are committed to noble friend Lord Risby for sponsoring the Bill and ensuring that both the Olympic and the Paralympic Games for leading this morning’s debate. I also thank all are appropriately commemorated. As my noble friend noble Lords for their welcoming comments. Several Lord Risby said, the legislation does not limit kilogram have given helpful advice—in particular my noble coins to the Olympic Games alone. Thereby, other friend Lord Stewartby and the noble Lord, Lord significant occasions can be similarly commemorated. Davies of Oldham, and their points are well taken. If I may, I will avoid inserting myself into the Welsh The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester discussion, except to say that I have sympathy with the asked how Section 1(6) of the 1971 Act arose. I can tell general point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies. him that it was inserted by Section 1(1) of the Currency Act 1983. I hope that is helpful to him. The legislation put forward by my noble friend is My noble friend Lord Stewartby made a valuable neither complicated nor controversial. Indeed, the Bill point that there needs to be a degree of abstinence in completed its passage through the other place, again striking commemorative coins so as not to debase with universal support from all parties. I am happy to them. He is right. As my noble friend Lord Risby say at the outset that the Government support it. explained, the Royal Mint is planning on producing In the course of its 1,100-year history, the Royal just 60 gold coins, precisely for that reason. Mint has become one of the world’s leading international I repeat my thanks to my noble friend Lord Risby mints. Not only does it supply all coins circulating in for sponsoring this Bill, the effects of which he has the United Kingdom, it is the chosen supplier for explained so clearly that I do not need to reiterate more than 60 countries worldwide. Of course, a large them. The Government fully support the Bill. part of its business—and the part that applies to today’s debate—concerns commemorative coins. It is 10.35 pm understood that for almost as long as there have been Lord Risby: My Lords, perhaps I may take this coins, there have been coin collectors. Originally hoarded opportunity to thank all who have participated in this for their bullion value, coins later started being collected debate, including my noble friend Lord Addington. I, for their artistic value. In this century, coin collecting and I think the whole House, are grateful to the noble is no longer an exclusive pastime reserved for the Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, who reminded us of privileged classes. Indeed, its growing popularity has the Paralympics aspect of the Olympics programme led to a re-coining of its description, and it is now that will take place next year. There was also the most known by many as the king of hobbies. interesting speech of my noble friend Lord Stewartby, As such a long-standing and traditional pastime, it with his considerable experience and the point he is perhaps unsurprising that market and consumer made about abstinence. However, given the limited demand has evolved—which brings us to the reason number of coins and their cost, by definition there will we are here today. As we have heard, the Bill seeks to be a certain amount of self-denial in those who are amend the Coinage Act 1971 in order to accommodate able to purchase these very expensive coins. I also that evolution of demand and allow the Royal Mint to thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for his strike 1 kilogram coins. Experience shows us that there support from the opposition Benches. I actually agree is a sizeable international market for kilogram coins. with his point about the dragon, simply because, after In the past 10 years, more than 40,000 Olympic kilogram all, Welsh gold is a very significant part of the life of coins have been issued around the world. Kilogram the Royal Family and is always commemorated in that coins are an enduring keepsake, a lasting investment, way. I hope that those at the Royal Mint who may read and a valuable piece of numismatic art and history. It these proceedings take his point on board. I am grateful is therefore right that the London 2012 Olympic and for the points made by my noble friend Lord De Paralympic Games should follow their predecessors Mauley. and feature kilogram coins as the crowning pinnacle As we have heard, this is not a controversial issue of the Royal Mint’s Olympic coin programme. and this piece of legislation is not complicated. It Overall, it is estimated that the Olympic coin enables the Royal Mint to deal with the Olympics programme will generate approximately £2 million in taking place next year and with future cultural events. royalty income for Her Majesty’s Treasury, as well as I therefore ask your Lordships’ House to give the Bill a royalties for the London organising committee, the Second Reading. International Olympics Committee and revenue for the Royal Mint. Of course, the legislation does not Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee limit the striking of kilogram coins to the London of the Whole House. 2012 Olympic Games. Future events of national cultural and historical significance would also be able to be commemorated with kilogram coins. As such, this Bill Live Music Bill [HL] will have a weighty impact for generations to come. Committee I echo the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady 10.37 am Grey-Thompson, about London’s leadership in diversity in its approach to these Games. The Royal Mint Olympic coin programme has represented both the Amendment 1 Olympic and Paralympic movements in its designs for Moved by Lord Clement-Jones the gold and silver kilogram coins, which commemorate 1: Clause 1, page 1, leave out lines 2 and 3 and insert— 991 Live Music Bill [HL][15 JULY 2011] Live Music Bill [HL] 992

“( ) In section 177 of the Licensing Act 2003 (dancing and live Lord Colwyn: Does that include spontaneous music in certain small premises)— dancing—where dancing was not intended, but the (a) in subsections (1) and (2), for “the provision of music style of music changed the attitude? entertainment” in each place substitute “dancing”, (b) in subsection (2) omit— Lord Clement-Jones: Dancing is often spontaneous. (i) paragraph (b) and “and” immediately before it, and I am certain that the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, engages (ii) in the words following paragraph (b), the words “, in spontaneous dancing on frequent occasions, perhaps in relation to the provision of that entertainment,”, even when he is playing a musical instrument at the (c) omit subsections (3) and (4), same time. However, technically speaking dancing in (d) in subsection (8)— those venues, in licensed premises, requires a licence. (i) for “music entertainment” substitute “dancing” and The Bill is not designed to impact on the existing law. in paragraph (a) of that definition omit “(e) or”, Future consultation may suggest that we can deregulate and that—I firmly hope that we can, especially in small (ii) omit paragraph (b) of that definition and “or” venues—so that the noble Lord will be freer to stand immediately before it, and up and spontaneously dance in future, but that is not (e) in the heading omit “and live music”. the intention behind the Bill. ( ) After that section insert—” Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, I do not Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I shall speak also want to engage in the question of whether we will to Amendment 2. From the outset, in dealing with all spontaneously join in any activity this morning, because these amendments, I want to assure your Lordships it is still early, but I reassure the House that we support that with the exception of the third group, all the the amendment. amendments are of a technical and drafting nature. The essence of the Bill—to deregulate the performance Amendment 1 agreed. of live music and to provide for safeguards on a subsequent review if problems are created by the Amendment 2 performance of live music—remains fully intact. I shall therefore be as brief as possible, but consistent Moved by Lord Clement-Jones with the need to explain the technical nature of some 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out “177” and insert “177A” of the amendments. I want to acknowledge not only the assistance of my advisers in improving the Bill but Amendment 2 agreed. that of DCMS officials who have been particularly helpful in helping me to draw up these amendments. Amendment 3 Section 177 of the Licensing Act 2003 at present relates to live music and dancing in small premises. Moved by Lord Clement-Jones However, the purpose of the Bill, as stated in the Long 3: Clause 1, page 1, line 5, leave out “entertainment” Title, is to deal only with live music. In fact, a later government consultation on, I hope, other aspects of Lord Clement-Jones: In moving Amendment 3, I entertainment is coming down the track. These shall also speak to the other amendments in the group, amendments ensure that dancing is neither positively which I shall reference separately as we go along. nor negatively affected by the changes that the Bill On Amendments 3, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12 and 18, proposed makes. To do this, Amendment 1 amends existing Section 177 contained in Clause 1 refers at various places Section 177 so that it deals only with dancing. to “music entertainment”or “live music entertainment”. Amendment 2 creates a new Section 177A for live It is clear from the Bill and the definition of “music music. I suppose that we can now say that the Bill is entertainment” in subsection (5) that all those references not all-singing and all-dancing. Obviously, I hope that relate to live music. For the sake of simplicity, and to in due course the Government will, through their improve the drafting, the amendments ensure that the entertainment consultation later this year, say what term “live music” is used throughout the provisions. can be done to deregulate dancing in small venues. I Moving to Amendments 4 and 6, in proposed beg to move. Section 177(5) contained in Clause 1, there is a defined Lord Skelmersdale: I am not sure whether anyone term, “supply of alcohol”. However, elsewhere in else among your Lordships is as confused as I am. Section 177, the Bill does not use the phrase “supply Although I well understand that, of alcohol” but instead uses the words “supply alcohol” “dancing and live music in certain small premises”, or “supplying alcohol”. The defined term ought to be used consistently throughout. Proposed Section 177(1)(a) is a very wide term, the words in the Bill and in also alters the wording about the circumstances in which Amendment 1 seem to be so restrictive that they provisions apply from being when the premises are, would not include singing, which I would have thought was certainly a part of live music. “open for the purposes of being used for the supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises”, Lord Clement-Jones: I thank the noble Lord, Lord to when the premises are, Skelmersdale, for that intervention. I can certainly say “supplying alcohol for consumption on the premises”. that singing is covered as part of entertainment in the The wording in the Bill, if applied literally, could circumstances. There is no question about that. Through mean that the premises would have to be supplying the amendments, one is simply restricting the Bill from alcohol the whole time that the music entertainment impacting on the dancing aspects of licensing. was taking place. That is a somewhat surreal concept. 993 Live Music Bill [HL][LORDS] Live Music Bill [HL] 994

[LORD CLEMENT-JONES] Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: Again, I do not want It would be absurd if the requirement was that at least to delay the House. I should have said the first time I one person was actually being served alcohol at the spoke that much of what has just been said will have bar, rather than the premises simply being open for the been completely incomprehensible—indeed, it probably purposes of supplying alcohol. Those amendments still is—unless you have access to a Keeling schedule, ensure that the defined term “supply of alcohol” is which puts all the word changes proposed by the noble used uniformly within the drafting. Amendment 6 Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in the context of the Bill also addresses that potential absurdity. as it would be if amended. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for providing that 10.45 am for us, because it makes our life that much easier. With Moving to Amendments 19 to 21, Clause 2 removes that, I support the amendments. “entertainment facilities” from the definition of “provision-regulated entertainment” in paragraph 1(1) Amendment 3 agreed. of Schedule 1 to the Licensing Act 2003, and removes other references to entertainment facilities in that Amendments 4 to 8 schedule. I am sure that your Lordships will be familiar with the fact that “entertainment facilities” means the Moved by Lord Clement-Jones piano in the bar—or the piano in the street, which we 4: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, leave out “supply” and insert “be will see during the City of London Festival. Currently, used for the supply of” erroneously, the Bill does not include removal of the 5: Clause 1, page 1, line 8, leave out “entertainment” references to entertainment facilities in paragraphs 8, 6: Clause 1, page 1, line 8, leave out “is supplying” and insert 11(b) and 11A(4) of Schedule 1. As provision of “are open for the purposes of being used for the supply of” entertainment facilities will, under the terms of the 7: Clause 1, page 1, line 10, leave out “entertainment” Bill, cease to be regulated entertainment, all references 8: Clause 1, page 1, line 12, leave out “entertainment” to entertainment facilities should consequently be removed. The purpose of Amendments 19 to 21 is to Amendments 4 to 8 agreed. remove those three references to entertainment facilities from Schedule 1. Amendment 9 Moving to Amendments 22, 26 and 31, Part 2 of Moved by Lord Clement-Jones Schedule 1 to the Licensing Act 2003 contains a number of exemptions where, in specified circumstances, 9: Clause 1, page 1, line 13, leave out “midnight” and insert “11 pm” the type of entertainment referred to is not to be regarded as regulated entertainment. In each instance in the schedule, the wording refers to “entertainment Lord Clement-Jones: I beg to move Amendment 9 consisting of”. These three minor amendments simply and shall speak to Amendments 30 and 36. I thank the ensure that, in respect of the new exemptions that will noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his remarks on the be inserted into Schedule 1 by paragraphs 12A, 12B and previous grouping. The Keeling schedule is available 12C, the wording is consistent with what already appears for your Lordships if you wish to see how all the elsewhere in the schedule. amendments would alter the Bill; I very much hope that you will avail yourselves of it. Of course, it will be Penultimately, I turn to Amendments 23, 27 and 32. reprinted after these amendments have been made so The words, that, on Report, it will be much clearer what will be “within the meaning of paragraph 2(1)(e) of this Schedule, or the total import of the Bill. I recognise that some of entertainment of a similar description”, the technical amendments create some confusion in in proposed paragraphs 12A, 12B and 12C are, I am how they impact on the Bill and on the original advised, unnecessary. It is self-evident that references Licensing Act 2003. to live music in Schedule 1 refer back to the definition There is no doubt that this particular set of in paragraph 2(1)(e), and paragraph 2(1)(h) of Schedule 1 amendments is not technical but it is indeed a matter has the effect of making, of policy. The amendments move the time at which “entertainment of a similar description to that falling within exemptions under the Bill cease to apply from midnight paragraph (e)”, to 11 pm. I recognise that many low-risk performances regulated entertainment. The words, may continue a little later than 11 pm—in particular, “entertainment of a similar description”, acoustic events, which pose no threat of noise nuisance— in paragraph 2(1)(h) apply not only to the description but I understand that the Government’s position is of the entertainment in Part 1 of the schedule but also, that this issue has not yet been fully tested in public where appropriate, to the exemptions in Part 2. That is consultations and that therefore it would be difficult a very complicated way of saying that some unnecessary for them to offer support at this point. Therefore, in wording will be removed from paragraphs 12A, 12B, order to make sure that the general provisions of the and 12C, but I say that to put it on the record for those Bill go through, I am content to have tabled these who are following the movement in the Bill’s wording. amendments to ensure government support. However, Finally, I turn to Amendment 34. That is another I very much hope that the Minister will be able to say a minor amendment which removes the words “or few words about the Government’s position and confirm entertainment” from paragraph 12C. I am also advised that there will be consultation on matters such as this that those words are unnecessary in the context of the in their entertainment consultation, which we are advised provision and, to avoid confusion, should be removed. will take place later this year, and that further scope I beg to move. for exemptions will be consulted over. I beg to move. 995 Live Music Bill [HL][15 JULY 2011] Live Music Bill [HL] 996

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, given entertainment, including music licensed under the that this is the main point at issue, it is worth spending 2003 Act. This will include seeking views on deregulation a few minutes on it. I agree with the noble Lord, after 11 pm. Lord Clement-Jones, that in ideal circumstances However, for the moment, and given the concerns midnight might have been a more appropriate time, as that some feel about later cut-offs and the fact that this indeed was his original intention. Live music tends has not been subject to consultation, we believe that it somehow to gain in character and quality as it moves is better to adopt a more cautious approach. Therefore, towards the midnight hour. I do not think that many I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling relevant people would disagree with that, although, as I get a amendments, which, if agreed by the Committee, will little older, I wonder whether I could survive as late as enable the Government to offer their support for the that. Bill. In introducing the amendment, the noble Lord made it very clear where his sentiments lie and the Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, first, I thank the problems that the Government would have in accepting noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his extremely useful anything later than 11 pm. We have to have regard to remarks. I also thank the Minister very much for her the impact that any late activity has on localities and explanation of the Government’s position. I think that we should be respectful of that. Given that there seems that is completely understood. Obviously I hope that to be some sort of agreement between the two sides—or, we will be able to go further than we do in the Bill by rather, between the two parties on the same side—that extending the time to midnight after wider consultation. 11 o’clock should be the time that appears in the Bill, However, I understand the Government’s desire to we would not object to it at this stage. have that wider consultation and, in the mean time, I am grateful to the Minister for giving us the background Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, I am grateful to their view. to my noble friend for the opportunity to explain the Government’s position on the time at which exemptions Lord Colwyn: My Lords, the Minister should know for live music would no longer apply. I add my thanks that the licensee does not always have control over the to those of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for the finishing time. In London hotels, for example, the Keeling schedule, which certainly brought some light electricity can be turned off and the event will finish to some fairly obscure parts of the Bill. dead on time. However, it is up to the musicians when The Government have previously indicated that the party finishes, and I would hate a licensee to get they are supportive of the measures to liberalise the into trouble if it carried on because the musicians licensing of live music but that they would like to see continued playing. some minor changes to the Bill. Apart from some technical changes outlined in amendments tabled by Lord Clement-Jones: I thank the noble Lord, Lord my noble friend, we asked him whether he would bring Colwyn, for that intervention. With him, I am sure forward the time at which the exemptions ceased to that the party never stops. I very much hope that there have effect from midnight to 11 pm. will be an understanding by musicians of the licensee’s position in those circumstances, although there obviously We have to acknowledge that there are concerns has to be some leeway and I hope that the lack of a from residents’ groups and others about the impact of licence is used responsibly in future. It is very much possible deregulation of licensing requirements for hoped that those who take advantage of the exemptions live music, particularly in relation to late-night noise, in the Bill do so in a responsible way which does not and local authorities may be concerned about a possible cause nuisance. increase in complaints at night. There are, of course, other interventions that can be used to tackle any Amendment 9 agreed. problems of noise and disturbance, not least the continuing requirement for an alcohol licence in most venues. However, we have to recognise that 11 pm is generally Amendment 10 accepted as the time at which it is not unreasonable to Moved by Lord Clement-Jones expect consideration for those who live near businesses 10: Clause 1, page 1, line 13, at end insert “(or, where an order and entertainment premises. That is why noise legislation under section 172 has effect, between the hours specified in that already has special rules relating to the period from order)” 11 pm to 7 am and why the Licensing Act makes special provision for takeaways and other late-night Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, under Section 172 hot food premises to require a licence after 11 pm. of the 2003 Act, the Secretary of State may make an Those other protections might, in themselves, be a order providing for the relaxation of opening hours to good reason why we could be more ambitious in mark an occasion of exceptional international, national relaxing the rules for live entertainment. However, the or local significance. Such an order was made in difficulty that the Government have is that previous respect of the recent royal wedding and I hope that consultation sought views on deregulation of small there will be many more to come. music events only up to 11 pm, and without a further The current Section 177 of the Act, so far as it test of public views the Government would be unable relates to premises licensed to supply alcohol for to support the Bill at this point if it retained the consumption on the premises, provides that conditions midnight cut-off. However, I should add in response to relating to live music do not have effect at any time my noble friend that the Government are planning when the premises are open for the purposes of being to consult shortly on wider reforms to regulated used for the supply of alcohol for consumption on the 997 Live Music Bill [HL][LORDS] Live Music Bill [HL] 998

[LORD CLEMENT-JONES] On a review of a premises licence under Section 52, premises. Therefore, with regard to the licensing hours a licensing authority may, among other things, modify extension in respect of the royal wedding, the effect the conditions of a licence or exclude a licensable was that the disapplication of conditions relating to activity from the scope of the licence. However, the music would have been extended because Section 177(2) effect of the proposed Section 177(4) may be that, on a is linked to the time at which the premises are open for review, provision of live music becomes licensable, so the supply of alcohol. effectively the licence would have to be amended to However, new Section 177(1) and (2) contained in include a new licensable activity. A concern has been the Live Music Bill provide that, so far as alcohol-licensed raised that Section 52 does not provide the necessary premises are concerned, conditions relating to live power to do that. There is also a conceptual difficulty music will not have effect only if the music takes place with the proposition that whether or not an activity is between 8 am and midnight, or 11 pm as a result of licensable depends on the outcome of a review of the other amendments. Although Section 172 of the 2003 Act licence itself. allows for the relaxation of licensing hours for special These amendments, taken together, resolve these occasions, as drafted the Bill would not allow the drafting difficulties. They preserve the intent of the disapplication of conditions on live music to run in Bill that there should be an exemption from licensing tandem with any licensing hours extension. for small audiences but enable a licensing authority to Amendment 10 allows the disapplication of conditions impose new conditions relating to live music at a relating to live music to apply where extended licensing review of a licence or club premises certificate as if the hours are granted as a result of a licensing hours music were licensed, or to re-activate conditions about order. In so doing, it preserves the benefit afforded to live music which would not otherwise have effect as a alcohol-licensed premises under the existing Section 177. result of Section 177A(2). Again, I apologise for the I beg to move. highly technical nature of that explanation. I beg to move.

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, we support Amendment 13 agreed. the amendment. It makes sense in terms of how current licensing operations work and I think that it would add to the general jollity. Amendments 14 to 16 Moved by Lord Clement-Jones Amendment 10 agreed. 14: Clause 1, page 1, leave out lines 22 and 23 15: Clause 1, page 1, line 23, at end insert— Amendments 11 and 12 “(3A) On a review of a premises licence or club premises certificate a licensing authority may (without prejudice to any Moved by Lord Clement-Jones other steps available to it under this Act) add a condition relating 11: Clause 1, page 1, line 15, leave out “the provision of music to live music as if— entertainment” and insert “live music” (a) the live music were regulated entertainment, and 12: Clause 1, page 1, line 16, leave out “provision of that (b) the licence or certificate licensed the live music.” entertainment” and insert “live music” 16: Clause 1, page 2, leave out lines 1 to 3

Amendments 11 and 12 agreed. Amendments 14 to 16 agreed.

Amendment 13 Amendment 17 Moved by Lord Clement-Jones Moved by Lord Clement-Jones 13: Clause 1, page 1, line 17, at end insert “or is added to the 17: Clause 1, page 2, line 5, leave out from “means” to end of licence in accordance with subsection (3A)” line 12 and insert “a condition— (a) included in a premises licence by virtue of section 18(2)(a) 11 am or (3)(b), 35(3)(b), 52(3) or 167(5)(b), (b) included in a club premises certificate by virtue of Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I shall speak also section 72(2)(a) or (3)(b), 85(3)(b) or 88(3), to Amendments 14, 15, 16, 24, 33 and 37. In the (c) added to a premises licence by virtue of its inclusion in Bill, as presently drafted, there is a problem with the an application to vary the licence in accordance with interaction between proposed Section 177 and proposed section 34 or 41A which is granted under section 35(2) paragraphs 12A and 12C of Schedule 1. Paragraph 12A or 41B(3) (as the case may be), or applies only to premises which are licensed for the (d) added to a club premises certificate by virtue of its supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises inclusion in an application to vary the certificate in and paragraph 12C engages Section 177 only where accordance with section 84 or 86A which is granted the premises are licensed to supply alcohol. Given that under section 85(2) or 86B(3) (as the case may be);” where paragraphs 12A or 12C apply a performance of live music is not a licensable activity, there would be no Lord Clement-Jones: In proposed Section 177(5), need, and perhaps no power, for conditions to be the Bill sets out a list of conditions which, if they included on a licence relating to the provision of live relate to live music, do not have effect in respect of music. premises with small audiences unless and until there is 999 Live Music Bill [HL][15 JULY 2011] Live Music Bill [HL] 1000 a licence review bringing them into effect. However, Clause3:Exemptions for live music entertainment the proposed definition of condition, while referring to various sections by which conditions can be imposed, Amendments 22 to 24 uses the phrase, “including, but not limited to”. Moved by Lord Clement-Jones The purpose of the amendment is explicitly to include 22: Clause 3, page 3, line 22, after first “of”insert “entertainment all the provisions in the Licensing Act 2003 by which consisting of” conditions can be added or imposed which are intended 23: Clause 3, page 3, line 22, leave out from “music” to “is” in to fall within the operation of Section 177A and line 24 therefore remove the words, 24: Clause 3, page 3, line 25, leave out from “premises” to end “including, but not limited to”, of line 26 and insert “authorised to be used for the supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises by a premises licence or which are too vague. club premises certificate, if— The amendment also removes references in proposed (a) the requirements of section 177A(1)(a) to (c) are Section 177(5) to conditions imposed under Sections 53B satisfied, and and 53C of the 2003 Act. These were inserted in the (b) conditions have not been included in the licence or 2003 Act by the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 certificate by virtue of section 177A(3) or (3A).”” and relate to conditions that may be imposed on a summary review, or pending such review, in respect of Amendments 22 to 24 agreed. premises which are licensed to sell alcohol and which are associated with serious crime or serious disorder. Amendment 25 Given the seriousness of the circumstances that are likely to lead to a review under these provisions, the Moved by Lord Clement-Jones condition should definitely be removed from the list of 25: Clause 3, page 3, line 28, leave out “not licensed under this conditions not having effect. Act” The amendment also includes reference to conditions added to a premises licence or a club premises certificate Lord Clement-Jones: I shall speak also to as a result of inclusion in an application to vary such Amendment 28. Takeaways and cafés serving late licence or certificate. There is no reason why conditions night refreshment must be licensed under the 2003 Act arising in this way should be treated any differently because provision of late night refreshment—refreshment from those imposed by a licensing authority on the between 11 pm and 5 am—is a licensable activity grant of a licence. I beg to move. under the Act. On the present wording of the proposed paragraph 12B of Schedule 1, such premises would Amendment 17 agreed. not be able to benefit from the workplace exemption because they are licensed under the 2003 Act, even though there is no link between the live music and the Amendment 18 late night refreshment. Moved by Lord Clement-Jones This was an unintended consequence of the drafting 18: Clause 1, page 2, line 13, leave out ““music entertainment”” of paragraph 12B. Cafés, takeaways and similar and insert ““live music”” establishments should be able to take advantage of the workplace exemption so as to be able to put on live Amendment 18 agreed. music without a licence between 8 am and 11 pm. To achieve this aim, Amendment 28 adds reference to Clause 1, as amended, agreed. premises being licenced for late night refreshment into the proposed paragraph 12B, and Amendment 25 makes a consequential amendment to the title of that Clause2:Removalofrequirement to license the paragraph. I beg to move. provision of entertainment facilities Baroness Garden of Frognal: I congratulate my Amendments 19 to 21 noble friend on successfully tabling the amendments he has outlined today and on bringing us a step closer Moved by Lord Clement-Jones to a more proportionate licensing system. These are 19: Clause 2, page 3, line 11, at end insert— important measures that could help struggling venues “( ) In paragraph 8 omit “or entertainment facilities”.” and aspiring performers, as well as enhancing the cultural 20: Clause 2, page 3, line 14, leave out subsection (12) and offering in local communities. Once the amendments insert— are in place I am pleased to confirm that the Government “( ) In paragraph 11— are happy to support the Live Music Bill. (a) omit “or entertainment facilities”, and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: I join the noble Baroness (b) omit sub-paragraph (b).” and add our thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Clement- 21: Clause 2, page 3, line 14, at end insert— Jones, and to the Government for supporting the Bill. “( ) In paragraph 11A omit sub-paragraph (4).” This will radically change the way in which live music can be performed across the country. It was not well Amendments 19 to 21 agreed. dealt with in previous legislation, which we very much regret. This is the way forward and we are delighted to Clause 2, as amended, agreed. support it. 1001 Live Music Bill [HL][LORDS] Rehabilitation of Offenders Bill [HL] 1002

Lord Clement-Jones: I thank the Minister and the insert into the principal Act. Paragraph (d) refers to noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, very much for their the new subsection (9A) which an earlier version of the bipartisan support on this legislation. As I said earlier, Bill would have inserted but which is no longer in the I am delighted to have had the support of DCMS Bill. This reference to the subsection was inadvertently officials in improving the Bill technically. I very much left in the current version of the Bill. I beg to move. hope that we will be able to move to Report and Third Reading after the Summer Recess with dispatch. There Baroness Gale: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, are literally thousands of musicians and performers Lord Dholakia, for tabling the amendment and for his up and down the country who will be really grateful to explanation. We fully support him and look forward see this legislation go through. It will give great to hearing what the Minister has to say. encouragement to young musicians in all kinds of different venues, many of which we probably cannot Lord Bhatia: My Lords, I wish to make a brief conceive of at the moment. They will be able to take comment that the Minister may wish to take into advantage of these provisions. I am extremely grateful. account. It relates to the young people in our armed I beg to move. services fighting for our freedom and safety and putting their lives and their health at risk. I want to draw Amendment 25 agreed. attention to the recently published report by the Howard League for Penal Reform, The Inquiry into Former Amendments 26 to 37 Armed Services Personnel in Prison. Moved by Lord Clement-Jones I submit that the armed services provide an excellent canopy of care and support while the individual personnel 26: Clause 3, page 3, line 29, after first “of”insert “entertainment consisting of” are in service, but on retirement that canopy partly disappears and the gap is admirably filled by charities 27: Clause 3, page 3, line 29, leave out from “music” to “is” in line 31 such as the Royal British Legion, Crisis and many 28: Clause 3, page 3, line 34, after “Act” insert “(or is so others, not to forget and to acknowledge the exceptional licensed only for the provision of late night refreshment)” work of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. 29: Clause 3, page 3, line 38, at end insert “and” As a result of the problems and issues mentioned in 30: Clause 3, page 3, line 39, leave out “midnight” and insert the report that I have just quoted, some of these “11 pm” personnel end up in prison. My plea is that such 31: Clause 3, page 4, line 3, after first “of” insert “entertainment people need greater understanding and support from consisting of” the Government in designing amendments that give 32: Clause 3, page 4, line 3, leave out from “music” to “is” in an easier and faster route back to society and jobs line 5 once they have served their time in prison. These 33: Clause 3, page 4, line 5, after “not” insert “(subject to armed services personnel risk their lives and health section 177A(3) and (3A))” because we, the politicians, decided to send them to the battlefield. Therefore we, as the politicians, should 34: Clause 3, page 4, line 6, leave out “or entertainment” now help to design and craft legislation that recognises 35: Clause 3, page 4, line 8, at end insert “and” the needs of those who retire and that enables them to 36: Clause 3, page 4, line 9, leave out “midnight” and insert have a quicker route to training, jobs and a normal life “11 pm” like anyone else. 37: Clause 3, page 4 , leave out lines 10 to 15 The jobs market is difficult in the present economic Amendments 26 to 37 agreed. climate. If an ex-member of our armed services has to Clause 3, as amended, agreed. declare that he has served his time in prison, his chances of getting employment will reduce substantially. Clause 4 agreed. Employers have a much bigger pool of people to House resumed. choose from. I recognise that it will be difficult to find a solution to enable the retired person to be put on to Bill reported with amendments. a fast track to a job, but I sincerely believe that the public will sympathise if we legislate for positive Rehabilitation of Offenders (Amendment) discrimination for our retired armed services personnel. Bill [HL] I fully support the amendment. Committee Baroness Northover: My Lords, I commend the 11.10 am noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, for taking forward his Private Member’s Bill. I know that reform of the Clause 1 : Amendment of the Rehabilitation of Rehabilitation of Offenders Act is an important issue Offenders Act 1974 for him and one that he has raised consistently in this House. I hope the noble Lord will understand that the Amendment Government are currently considering reform of the Moved by Lord Dholakia ROA and that I am not in a position today to make any announcement in respect of that review. Clause 1, page 1, leave out lines 9 and 10 I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, says and Lord Dholakia: My Lords, this is purely a drafting will ensure that my colleagues take his points into amendment to correct a drafting error in the Bill. It consideration. That said, this amendment seems entirely deletes paragraph (d) of new Section 5(1) of the consistent with the intentions of the Bill, and I am Rehabilitation of Offenders Act which the Bill would happy to accept it. 1003 Rehabilitation of Offenders Bill [HL][15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1004

Amendment agreed. Most interesting of all were his views on his role as a proprietor. In the case of the Times and the Sunday Clause 1, as amended, agreed. Times, he said that the law required him to take no part; but with the Sun and the News of the World,he Clause 2 agreed. said, he was a traditional proprietor. This meant that an American owner was deciding the position of those House resumed. newspapers on which party they would support and on big policy issues such as Europe; but it did not mean that the owner exercised daily editorial control. Bill reported with an amendment. Indeed, he said, if he exercised that, there would not be the degree of celebrity coverage that there was in Lord De Mauley: My Lords, in view of the fact that his tabloids. He added that he did not understand the we have proceeded more speedily than was anticipated interest in “Big Brother”contestants and, by implication, by noble Lords who intend to speak in the next debate, in their private lives. He said that was up to his editors. I suggest that it would be appropriate to adjourn for I think that today, as his empire shows signs of five minutes. cracking, he might regret that hands-off approach. It has been brought low in part by the preoccupation 11.17 am with private lives and private tragedies, and by the utterly unacceptable means used by one of his newspapers, Sitting suspended. the News of the World, to avoid the law and intrude into them. I note that today in the Wall Street Journal he states that News Corp has handled the phone Arrangement of Business hacking scandal “extremely well” and has made only Announcement “minor mistakes”. It is not for me to advise Mr Murdoch, but I think that he might find that not to be the most 11.22 am convincing argument when he meets the Select Committee next week—particularly as another head has just rolled Lord De Mauley: My Lords, this debate is not at Wapping with the resignation of Rebekah Brooks. time-limited, but if Back-Bench contributions other This follows the entire tradition of there being a new than that of my noble friend Lord Fowler were to be development in the scandal every few hours. I am sure kept within seven minutes, the House would be able to that by the time I sit down, another development will rise by 3 pm. I am sure that all noble Lords, in have occurred. preparing their contributions for today’s debate, were conscious that there are ongoing police investigations I will start by saying something about journalism into recent allegations about the news media. I am and newspapers. I will say it from the standpoint of sure that they will have regard to those criminal someone who was once a journalist and chairman of investigations and will, in their comments today, make two regional newspaper groups. The Motion is not an sure that they neither impede the investigations nor attack on newspapers generally, nor on campaigning prejudice any potential trials. journalism. Indeed, we would not be having this debate were it not for the persistence of a number of newspapers and the skill of their investigative reporters: newspapers Media: News Corporation such as the Guardian, Independent, Financial Times Motion to Take Note and Evening Standard. We should always understand that newspapers are not and never will be there to give 11.23 pm Governments, political parties and politicians an easy time. Nor are they there to allow businesses to trample Moved By Lord Fowler over the rights of ordinary people. That is why the Sunday Times thalidomide campaign under Harry That this House takes note of recent allegations Evans some time ago was so important. about the conduct of the news media and police; and the position of News Corporation within United Nothing I will say is an attack on an independent Kingdom media provision. press carrying out its traditional and irreplaceable function in a democratic state. However, it is an attack on any newspaper using so-called private detectives to Lord Fowler: My Lords, at the centre of this debate hack the phones of the citizens of this country; it is an are Mr Murdoch and his media empire. He will go to attack on any newspaper that tries illegally to intrude the Commons next week, so I will start by reporting on the private grief of bereaved families; and it is an what he told the Lords Communications Committee attack on those who carry out that trade and on the when we interviewed him in New York four years ago. utter arrogance and callousness of those who authorise Perhaps because he was in his own office, he spoke and pay for such efforts. I am not attacking good quite freely about his ambitions. He said that the journalism; I am attacking the rotten and the criminal, United Kingdom was “anti-success” and that this had and the people who do not deserve to be called journalists prevented him from expanding further. He said that in the first place. Sky News would be more popular if it was more like Fox News—not in its political standpoint, I emphasise, The test that I would apply to what may flow from but in presentation and format. However, he said, the inquiries that have now been set up, and which I “Nobody at Sky listens to me”. very much welcome, is: what is in the interests of the 1005 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1006

[LORD FOWLER] the last thing he wanted to do was to meet the Prime public? There is no doubt that in case after case, the Minister, which mirrored exactly the Prime Minister’s interests of the public and the citizen have been damaged view of Mr MacKenzie. and infringed. It is one of the extraordinary features We all know that political leaders, Ministers and of the phone hacking scandal that it took so long to shadow Ministers have at times got demeaningly too agree that a public inquiry was necessary. Obviously, I close to proprietors. We now have an opportunity to think of my own experience. Since January, I asked put that right and to put clear water between the five Questions on the Floor of the House—and on five media and politicians, and I very much hope that we occasions I was told, more or less politely, to jump in will take it. One of the proposals in the Prime Minister’s the Thames. My last Question was a PNQ on 5 July, Statement on Wednesday is that meetings between only 10 days ago, when once again the same message Ministers and proprietors, editors and the like should was repeated. A few hours later, the whole position be recorded. I very much welcome that proposal and, changed because of the Milly Dowler case—the if I may respectfully point it out, it was one of the contemptible and almost incredible intrusion that took proposals that the House of Lords Select Committee place there. I think we all pay tribute to the Dowler on Communications made in its report in 2008. We family for the courage that they have shown during reported then on the position, and we highlighted the this time. It is not much comfort to them, but their case of a Member of this House, the noble Lord, Lord case it was that broke the mould. Avebury, who, Let me be clear: the case for an independent inquiry “sought information about the times and dates of Tony Blair’s goes back much further than the seven months of meetings with Rupert Murdoch and Richard Desmond, but was 2011. It seems that 18 months ago, the former Prime refused answers for several years. Both Downing Street and the Minister, Gordon Brown, considered a judicial inquiry Freedom of Information Officer at the Cabinet Office said that but now complains that he was given official advice the release of the information would be prejudicial to the effective conduct of public affairs. Lord Avebury was in the process of not to have one. I seem to remember my old boss taking his case to the Information Tribunal when the Cabinet saying something about advisers advising and Ministers Office chose to release the information the day after Mr Blair deciding but, whatever the rights and wrongs may be, resigned”. we can agree that no inquiry was set up. Even before That affects Mr Blair and his Government, but I think that, there was a strong case for an independent inquiry. we can see the attitude going through, frankly, Some may have considered it overwhelming. I remind Governments of all parties, and I in no way make a the House that in 2006, the report of Information party point on that. Commissioner came out. It contained some very damning evidence. The Information Commissioner said: Sometimes, if I may say so to my noble friend on the Front Bench, I think that Governments do not “Yet investigations by my officers and by the police have take over much notice of the House of Lords. There is uncovered evidence of a pervasive and widespread ‘industry’ a lot of media experience here. As I look down the list devoted to the illegal buying and selling of such information … Among the ‘buyers’ are many journalists looking for a story. In of speakers today, I see the ex-Times business editor, one major case investigated by the ICO, the evidence included the ex-director-general of the BBC and the former records of information supplied to 305 named journalists working chairman of the Guardian and I see the noble Lord, for a range of newspapers … The ‘suppliers’ almost invariably Lord Grade, who has the unique—I think it is unique— work within the private investigation industry … Suppliers use attribute of being the chairman of both the BBC and two main methods to obtain the information they want: through ITV. We started in Fleet Street at about the same time. corruption, or more usually by some form of deception, generally known as ‘blagging’. Blaggers pretend to be someone they are not He was on the Daily Mirror, I was on the Times, and in order to wheedle out the information”. he was infinitely better paid that I was. You also get alliances in this Chamber that do not take place in the I have absolutely no doubt that, had a full inquiry other place. The noble Lord, Lord Prescott, and I taken place then, we would have found even more joined the House of Commons on the same day in much earlier about phone hacking. 1970, and it has taken us 41 years to be on the same side in a campaign. I am not sure what the public Why have Governments—and I do say make of that. I hope they think it is an advantage. I “Governments”, as it is not one Government—up to hope that the Communications Committee can be now looked the other way, or at least failed to act? I taken into the consultations that the Government have fear that one reason is the impact that such action on the committees that they set up and the rest. I know could have upon them. The traditional advice has that my noble friend the chairman of the Communications been not to take on the man who controls the printing Committee, who cannot be in his place today, feels presses, and no man owned more in Britain than that very strongly. Mr Murdoch, who has a newspaper share of almost 40 per cent. The aim of both main parties has been to I think it would be wise if the political parties get his support. Mr Blair famously flew to Australia in approached the inquiries to be set up with a certain search of his support, and my noble friend Lady amount of humility and recognise that we have all Thatcher also had the same goal, but at least she made mistakes over the past years. The aim should be expected him to come to her. I say in parenthesis that to learn from them. The inquiries, which I very much John Major was one of the few Prime Ministers who welcome—I also welcome the appointment of Lord did not go courting. I was his party chairman for two Justice Leveson to head them—give us that opportunity. eventful years, and I certainly tried a bit of peacekeeping Out of all the many issues, I shall pick three. First, the with the Sun. I went down to Wapping to see Kelvin inquiry looking at media standards needs to examine MacKenzie, the Sun’s editor, to get the response that how wide the abuse has been. We know that the News 1007 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1008 of the World was guilty of infringing the rights of the I hope that we can inquire on a cross-party basis, public but, to coin a phrase, was this just one rogue which would give any of our inquiries much more newspaper? Have newspapers used impersonation to strength. obtain private information? Have they used private Perhaps I may say that there is a massive opportunity investigators with criminal records? Have they paid to weed out the criminal and corrupt from British policemen and others to get information? I think we journalism; an opportunity to ensure that the public know the answer to that, but how widespread was it? are properly protected from abuse while ensuring that Secondly, we want to know why our defences have the legitimate role of the press is upheld; and an failed. Maybe the investigation of the police handling opportunity to put the relations between Governments, of this affair will have to wait, but no one should be in Ministers and politicians on a better and more separate any doubt about how seriously the public take this basis. If we can achieve those things, very substantial issue. How can the break in the police investigation be good will result from these bleak and troubled years. explained? There are serious suspicions here, and those 11.41 pm do serious harm to the public reputation of the police, which all serious people want to see preserved. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, we as politicians are fond of quoting the famous dictum of Lord Wilson Of course, it is not just the police who are meant to of Rievaulx, the former Prime Minister Harold Wilson, be defending the public; it is also the Press Complaints that a week is a long time in politics. The events of the Commission. It sometimes gives the impression of past 10 days in British politics, British journalism and being a trade body, albeit with a disciplinary section British policing are such that a better phrase might be, for dealing with complaints, with the aim of defending “Ten Days That Shook the World”, which is the title the press. Whether that is fair or not, it is beyond of the US journalist John Reed’s classic 1919 eyewitness dispute that over the past years the commission has account of the October 1917 Russian Revolution. The not adequately defended the public interest. That may world may not quite have been globally shaken by the be because of a lack of powers or even of resources, News International phone hacking scandal of the past but what is beyond dispute is that we must examine 10 days, but the worlds of UK politics, media and that and, in my view, seek to set up a strong and, above policing have unquestionably been shaken to their all, independent body to guard the interests of the very core. citizens of this country. Ten days ago, News International owned four major Thirdly, the inquiry must examine the ownership of British newspapers. The bid from News International’s the media in this country. I think that underlying parent company, News Corporation, for total ownership much of the reaction to events over the past two weeks and control of BSkyB, which in revenue terms is is a strong public feeling in this country that Mr Murdoch Britain’s biggest broadcaster, looked set to be nodded has been allowed too much media power, that he owns through by the Government. Rebekah Brooks, the too much of the British press and that full ownership former editor of the Sun and the News of the World of BSkyB would have further strengthened the position reigned supreme at the pinnacle of UK media power of what is a United States-owned company. I think it as chief executive of News International. The political is crucial that we should revisit the rules governing power of the company derived from the sheer scale of foreign takeovers of British media companies. That the circulation of its four titles and their reach into all position was changed fundamentally by the parts and classes of Britain looked both unassailable Communications Act 2003 and it has allowed the and permanent. News Corp bid. Before 2003, there was a restriction on A mere 10 days later, after 168 years of publication, the stake that a non-EU company could take. The Britain’s biggest-selling newspaper, the News of the attitude of successive British Governments had been World, is gone. News Corp’s bid for BSkyB is gone that, as we were prevented from taking no more than too—pulled off the table by the company in the face of 20 per cent or 25 per cent in an American media concerted condemnation from across the political company, there should be a similar restriction on spectrum. Gone as well this morning is Rebekah Brooks, United States companies. That position was very suddenly sacrificed or sacrificing herself to try to help save the changed. We have now allowed United States companies company. Gone too, it seems—or at the very least to take full control but we are still restricted in the substantially diminished—is the power, wielded over United States to 20 per cent or 25 per cent. On the face UK politics by News International and its founder of it, that seems an absurdly weak position for us to be Rupert Murdoch, of more than 40 years. in and I believe that it should be examined. In comparison with the spring revolutions across the Middle East this year, let alone the Russian Revolution We have just lived through the most dramatic 10 days of 1917, this may not be that much of a change, but in in media history—certainly, that the most dramatic comparison with what has run for so long in British that I can remember—where the positions have been journalism and British politics it is a revolution indeed. changing literally hour by hour. The headlines say it A number of factors led to this revolution. The most all. One newspaper said, “The Sky falls in” and another forceful and important has been the public. Public said, “Rupert on the run”. But after the storm, I opinion can be hard to hear. Whole industries and a suggest that careful and searching investigation is wide range of mechanisms, opinion polls, focus groups needed. I am sure that we will get that from the and all the rest have been established and have refined inquiry. As for Parliament, our role is, as is suggested their techniques over many years to help us hear the in the Times today, public more clearly, but the moment the story exploded “to inquire rather than to grandstand”. when the Guardian newspaper revealed last week—only 1009 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1010

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] If that is the case, I, for one, am glad. That the spell last week—that the News of the World had been hacking has been broken means that the concentration of into the mobile phone of the murdered 14 year-old power is fragmenting. schoolgirl Milly Dowler, the public mood was clear, When in the 1990s I was trying to defend my party’s unanimous and determined. Without opinion polls, relationship with the Murdoch press, my late husband, focus groups, elections or any of the machinery of a principled and moral man of strong values, was catching what the public are thinking and want, the critical. He was right and he would have been much public transmitted their views in every home, shop, relieved by the events of the past 10 days. It is the first pub, town and village in every part of the country and time for decades that we, as politicians of all stripes, beyond these shores. What the public thought and have started to regain our moral courage in relation to wanted was transparent, forceful and undeniable. sections of the media. Some parliamentarians before The press has been vital. Good journalism has been now have, with real bravery, taken a stand over a much the engine for driving out bad journalism. The work of longer period. Labour MPs Chris Bryant and Tom the Guardian particularly, and especially of its brilliant Watson in the Commons, the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and unswerving investigative reporter Nick Davies, on from the Conservative Benches in this House, and my digging out what happened at the News of the World noble friend Lord Prescott, are most prominent among has eventually had an effect almost certainly far beyond them. My right honourable friend Ed Miliband, our what that newspaper and its journalists would probably party’s leader, has brilliantly led the way on this issue. have ever imagined. When the Guardian revealed that I pay tribute, too, to my noble and learned friend Lady phone hacking by the News of the World had moved Scotland of Asthal, the shadow Attorney-General, for beyond politicians, celebrities and sports stars, and all the close legal work that she has been carrying on had spread into missing children, fallen soldiers, grieving behind the scenes. parents and into police corruption, the issue crossed a In the face of the Motion put down by the leader of line that marked, on one side, public indifference the Labour Party in the other place, which drew to what had been seen as a Westminster village insider support from all sides of the House, News Corp story and, on the other, revulsion, horror, outrage and withdrew its bid for BSkyB. Parliament in the form of anger from people in all parts of the country and in all the House of Commons spoke with one voice, and walks of life. even the most powerful of organisations had to heed Parliament has been central to that revolution. My that message. I imagine that today in this House we, noble friend Lord Mandelson, a Member of your too, will speak with one voice, which I welcome. News Lordships’ House who knows a thing or two about Corp’s decision meant that this House no longer had politics and the media and their interrelationship said to debate the same Motion today, but we can play our this week that the reason politicians chose not to part. As I said, we on these Benches look to your tackle issues around media reform was that they were Lordships’ House today to speak with a similar singleness too fearful to do otherwise. This is a daunting but of purpose. wholly accurate charge. In a democracy, Parliament The events of the past 10 days are in all likelihood a and politicians should of course be scrutinised by the long way from playing themselves out. Criminal public, and from that organisations and institutions investigations are likely to lead to criminal prosecutions. such as the media seek both to inform the public The FBI is now involved in the USA. The inquiry the and to reflect the public’s feelings, judgments and Government have established, which we called for wants. However, that media scrutiny has over many strongly and now warmly welcome, has a great deal of decades become entangled with media power, and work to do, which will take a while. This will be a long a particular kind of power. As Stanley Baldwin so revolution but it will be a revolution with many twists brilliantly characterised it in 1931, it is “power without and turns. If earlier this week it felt as though the responsibility”. scandal had peaked with News Corp pulling its bid for Politician after politician, from the Prime Minister BSkyB, it certainly does not feel like that today with onwards, now accepts that the relationship between the resignation, accepted this time by the Murdoch politicians and the press has got seriously out of kilter. empire, of Rebekah Brooks. And it will not feel like Fear of the media and fear of the consequences of that next week when Ms Brooks, by then free of her getting on the wrong side of the media prohibited responsibilities as News International’s chief executive articulation of that before now, but in the past 10 days although probably not from her contractual obligations, it has been articulated and it has been Parliament that is due to be joined by who will by then be her former has articulated it. It might have done so belatedly, but bosses, Rupert Murdoch and his son James, to give there is a real sense that there has been a shift and that evidence to the Culture, Media and Sport Select a ratchet has been turned that cannot be turned back. Committee in the other place. Politicians from all sides of the political spectrum—right, However, the nature of what has taken place and left or centre—now have the prospect of being freed how it is being addressed means that this is a long-running from the shackles of fear that have characterised the issue, which in turn means that despite the imminent relationship with too much of the media. There has pressure of events there is a real opportunity now to been fear of an unfavourable front page and fear of get things right. The agenda to get things right, which the public being turned against them by the media. As the Prime Minister has laid out—police reform, press James Forsyth, who is not much of a friend of my reform and political reform—is clearly the correct one party, says in this week’s Spectator: and we on these Benches support it. Indeed, it is an “Rupert Murdoch’s hold on British politics has finally been agenda which my party has been promoting. Even broken”. within the constraints of criminal investigations, it is 1011 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1012 an agenda which the Leveson inquiry needs to begin I believe that one of the reasons for this—it is to tackle. Like the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, I believe certainly a contributory factor—is the cosy relationship that it is an agenda to which we as politicians must that was allowed to build up between senior officers of respond with humility. Later in the debate, my noble the Metropolitan Police and senior executives of the and learned friend Lady Scotland will set out some of News of the World and News International. This has her ideas on issues prompted by the events of the past bothered me for a long time. I raised it with the Acting 10 days to be taken forward. Commissioner at the beginning of this year in public Even when you are living through them, revolutions at the Metropolitan Police Authority. I was concerned can be hard to spot. It is not difficult when it is Egypt that on no fewer than 36 separate occasions between this spring or Moscow in 1917, but it is harder when it November 2005 and November 2010, senior police is an invisible but no less potent change such as the officers met with senior executives of News Corporation advent of the internet or of social media. Some of and News of the World. They did not just have meetings; those changes have been behind the media desperation they also had lunches and dinners. What I found most that lies at the heart of phone hacking, the ruthless extraordinary was that the two officers who led both competition that drove the News of the World to do of the investigations were involved in some of these things that could not and should not in any decency lunches and dinners. I believe that that could be open have been contemplated, let alone carried out, but to misinterpretation. however desperate and however hard the competition, I have no doubt that there is nothing wrong in whatever the reason, that can never be an excuse for principle with police officers meeting with the press. what went on in Wapping. Criminal acts are criminal Indeed, I fully accept that they need to do so in order acts. The scale of phone numbers that have now been to do their job. But it must be said that the Metropolitan listed suggests not only that this went on, and not only Police already employs 69 people in its press office, was it regarded as normal, but that it would in effect which is quite a lot. Equally, there is no doubt that if have been automatic. As soon as someone—anyone, it senior officers are going to have meetings, it is absolutely did not matter who—was in a story, their phone was essential that a transparent system is set up to record hacked. In other words, there were no limits on behaviour. such meetings, lunches and dinners. I have written to However, the public do have limits, which are set by the commissioner asking that he set up such a transparent the rule of law, by values, by community, by families system and I have suggested that all officers of ACPO and by good manners. What we have seen over the rank and above should record all meetings and all past 10 days is a world apparently without limits hospitality, including receptions, lunches and dinners—by where a powerful group, the media, felt itself to be that I also mean private dinners—with journalists and beyond the law and where any behaviour is acceptable media executives. I believe that there should be a and anything goes. We have seen that come into conflict system whereby all hospitality by senior officers of a with a world where limits do matter, where decency value of £25 or more should be recorded and that such and good behaviour matter, and where standards information should be on record in a register that is matter—and where, over the course of the past 10 days, updated every month and made freely available to those values have won. No one can say that this will anyone who wishes to examine it via the internet. Such not lead to a permanent settlement and a new way of a system would involve no greater effort or disclosure how these important institutions, what they do and than that which the Met has already been obliged to what they stand for, will work in practice, but here and make in response to Metropolitan Police Authority now there is a chance to learn; as the noble Lord, Lord questions and freedom of information requests. The Fowler, said, it is a chance for real change. That chance difference would be greater efficiency, transparency for change, for a small revolution in the worlds of the and promptness. press, the police and of politics, is worth all of us—the Never again should we have a system where meetings, press, the police, politicians and above all the people— entertainment, lunches and dinners are open to seizing and working to secure. misinterpretation. The time is long overdue for a transparent system that is open for everyone to examine, and I strongly urge that this is set up without any 11.54 am further delay. Baroness Doocey: My Lords, the issue of phone 11.59 am hacking at News International has evolved into a major scandal with implications not just for the media, Baroness O’Neill of Bengarve: My Lords, it has but also for the Metropolitan Police. I would like to been a tumultuous week and I am grateful that we are focus my comments on the implications for the having this debate. We could have held it on any day, Metropolitan Police since the Met’s conduct has, with but it seems better to hold it at this end of the week some justification, I think, come in for quite a lot of because the terms of reference, or at least the draft criticism. There is an urgent need for reform. I shall terms of reference, for the phone hacking and media preface my remarks by saying that in the seven years inquiry to be chaired by Lord Justice Leveson are now that I have been a member of the Metropolitan Police available. Authority, I have met some absolutely outstanding Before that inquiry takes on the retrospective task police officers who are hard-working, dedicated, efficient of investigating, and effective. But I have no doubt that the last two “the extent of unlawful and improper conduct within News investigations conducted by the Met into phone hacking at International and other newspaper organisations”, the News of the World were limited in scope, not given it is to undertake a more general inquiry, sufficient priority, and just not thorough enough. “into the culture, practices and ethics of the press”, 1013 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1014

[BARONESS O’NEILL OF BENGARVE] Such claims are implausible. Press freedom is covering press relations with the police and politicians. compatible with and best protected by regulation of The inquiry is also to make recommendations, the right sort. If we want evidence that regulation can “for a new more effective policy and regulatory regime which be compatible with press freedom, we need look no supports the integrity and freedom of the press, the plurality of further than the BBC, which is quite stringently regulated the media and its independence from Government”. yet whose journalism has quite a high reputation for This may not be the optimal sequence of inquiries, but independence. Of course, the regulation that is right we must accept that the practicalities of beginning the for the BBC cannot simply be extended to other inquiry while police investigation and prosecutions are media, and bad regulation, or regulation by politicians, under way may be a reason to work on recommendations would be risky and potentially disastrous. But there is for the future before completing the inquiry into the no reason to settle for bad regulation, or to let politicians past. Any recommendations for the future must take a regulate. Setting up regulators indeed needs legislation, critical look at different conceptions of press freedom, but regulators and their operational decisions can be their strengths, weaknesses, and justification, and insulated from political and party concerns. An determine which best support media communication appropriate media regulator could be expressly prohibited that enables the public to assess what they read, hear from controlling or censoring content. and view. Much can be achieved by regulating media process In my view, the best arguments for a free press in a rather than media content. I offer three examples, one democratic society see it as supporting public, social micro, one middling and one macro. I start with the and cultural life. Yet during the past 50 years media micro example: transparency. Journalists, editors and freedom has often and misleadingly been equated with proprietors could be required to declare their interests, and reduced to freedom of expression. Freedom of like others in positions of influence, to list payments expression for individuals is a classical liberal demand, made and favours received—dinners, for example— most often justified on the grounds that individuals’ without in relevant cases naming recipients and sources. speech is generally harmless and innocuous. In the They could be required to make such transactions, 20th century, media as well as individual freedom has where they were financial, explicit in company accounts. also been labelled freedom of expression. Yet while the The media have generally been keen to insist on the speech of individuals is generally innocuous, that of merits of transparency for others with influence and powerful organisations often is not. The media are power, and what is sauce for the political goose is and should be in the business of communication, not surely sauce for the media gander. of self-expression. An equally liberal but more plausible justification The second example is privacy. Recent revelations for media freedom appeals to the need of democratic have made us all too aware that we need to revisit the citizens for media whose communication they can question of privacy. Having incorporated the right to understand and assess, so allowing them to play a full privacy into UK law, we have, perhaps understandably and critical part in public, social and cultural life. given the now acknowledged intimidation of politicians, Where readers, listeners and viewers cannot tell whether failed to discuss, let alone implement, privacy protection. content is deceptive, or even whether it has been All that we have is the limited and clumsy protection obtained by illegal means, the basic purposes of a free afforded by the Data Protection Act 1998, which press are undermined rather than supported. Self- covers only organised, searchable information. A serious expression is not enough. and unhysterical debate on privacy is needed if we are to find a form of media regulation that supports a Effective communication requires media that treat strong, free and independent press that serves the readers, listeners and viewers with respect, providing needs of citizens. information and evidence that help them to judge content intelligently, and so to place and refuse their The third example, the macro example, is plurality trust intelligently. This needs regulation that provides and culture. Media power in the UK is, as the noble less flimsy ways of maintaining media standards than Lord, Lord Fowler, reminded us, very concentrated. those of the much derided Press Complaints Commission, Much of it is in the hands of those with little stake in which works to standards much less robust than those the future of the UK. Media regulation of concentrations once common in professional and public life which the of ownership and control could both help ensure that media have repeatedly criticised as inadequate. It does UK citizens have a plurality of offerings and that not seem likely that the media have such exceptional media power is exercised by those with a stake in our probity that they, unlike others, can effectively regulate future. Is it right for those who pay no tax to have themselves. powerful voices in debates about taxation? Is it right Yet already we hear claims that media regulation on for debates on UK strategic interests to be led by those a statutory basis would be even worse. On Wednesday, who do not share our fate? Are citizens and democracy the noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon, suggested well served if many of those who control the media do briefly that self-regulation must continue; I was glad not share citizenship, domicile or residence with their to note that the Leader of the House, the noble Lord, readers, listeners and viewers? Lord Strathclyde, was more cautious on this point. The fear of those who advocate self-regulation is that Long after the scandals of the hacks and hackers, anything else would allow politicians to regulate the the pols and the police have become history, we will be media, suppressing what it suited them to suppress, judged by the culture, practices and ethics of the leaving us with censorship and not a free press. media that we support in the wake of them. 1015 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1016

12.07 pm before the judicial review that they decided to look at the issue again and found the second inquiry. But the Lord Prescott: My Lords, I am very happy to be on denials were considerable. the side of the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, on this occasion in demanding a public inquiry. It reflects well The Press Complaints Commission failed to investigate on the Houses of Parliament, both Commons and the case while accepting the one rogue reporter’s story. Lords, that they are demanding that some action The chairman, the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe—I should be taken. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, am sorry she is not in her place today—after attacking spoke of eight or 10 days that shook the world; I am one of the lawyers trying to make the case, was forced bound to say that this affair has been going on longer to make a public apology and pay £20,000 in libel than that. It has been going on for a few years, and a damages. She is the chair of the body that is supposed lot of people have said nothing. I am glad that there to hold the press accountable. The total inadequacy of has now been a complete change in the position and the PCC to carry out its responsibilities was highlighted welcome the U-turn on the part of the Government in yesterday by the arrest of the former deputy of the setting up a proper judicial inquiry. News of the World, Mr Neil Wallis, who sits on the PCC’s editors’ code of practice committee. So a lot of The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, was also right to vigorous and robust research into such actions clearly draw attention to the Information Commissioner’s went on there. report in 2008. The commissioner pointed out that there were 30 newspapers involved in all sorts of The failure of the Government to recognise the illegal acquiring of information, involving hundreds need for an inquiry into the conduct of News of journalists and the paying of many thousands of International, or even to consider whether Murdoch pounds. The report was ignored. Admittedly, that was was a fit and proper person to own BSkyB—an issue during the period when we were in government, but, which I constantly raised in this Chamber over many on both sides, not enough has been done. months—were fundamental errors of judgment, as was the appointment of Andy Coulson. I warned the Since 2006 and the successful prosecution of the Prime Minister in a letter I sent to him two years ago original rogue reporter, Clive Goodman, there has saying, “You will make a major mistake if you appoint been a conspiracy of silence and denial among the this man as your director of communications. You will police, the Murdoch newspapers and the Press Complaints learn to regret it”. I hope that is how he now feels. Commission, which has only just rapidly come to think that something is wrong. Thanks to the remarkable I now hear that the Commissioner of the Metropolitan work of Nick Davies from the Guardian in July 2009, I Police hired the deputy editor to carry out investigatory and others have campaigned to uncover the truth. I work, to write his speeches and so on. No 10 was very might say that we faced some hostility and resistance, unhappy about this because it was not informed, but, particularly from Mr Yates and Mr Hayman, who if the Prime Minister could hire Mr Coulson, why is were in charge of the original police inquiry. They he surprised that Mr Stephenson should go for the have now accepted that their inquiry was wholly deputy editor? It all shows a lack of good judgment. It inadequate and replaced it with the far more competent seems that this Government were more concerned Akers investigation, which will bring back a little about issues of plurality than morality. credit to the Metropolitan Police. The leading players in the Government and News I also venture to suggest that the Crown Prosecution International—the Prime Minister, Coulson, Rebekah Service’s decision to side with the initial police view, Brooks, who I am glad has gone today; it is a step writing to me to that effect, on ring-fencing the towards decent and responsible journalism in this investigation and to ignore the 4,000 people who were country, although the 200 workers who have gone hacked by Murdoch’s News of the World, warrants down the road from the News of the World might not closer scrutiny. There was far too close a relationship appreciate that point too much—pretended that they between the Crown Prosecution Service and the police did not know. They all said, “I did not know; it was in their agreeing to take no further action. not me, guv”. Even Miss Brooks, I am told, said in a I also suggest that the decisions taken by Mr Hayman, statement that she likes to be on the bridge. I was a the original Met investigating officer, and the noble seafarer for 10 years and I would not have liked her on Lord, Lord Macdonald, the former Director of Public the bridge if she did not know what was going on and Prosecutions, both to go and work for Murdoch, in which direction she was going. That is why she has were unacceptable and raise questions of conflict of gone, thank God. It is a “not me, guv” culture. interest. The biggest culprit in the affair is the spider in the The consistent denials of events—particularly from middle of the net—Rupert Murdoch. He completely Murdoch’s News International—have been shamefully controls News International. He runs operations around exposed by evidence that it had known about them the world, building News International’s media empire since 2007. I hear Mr Murdoch saying, ″We helped the where there is more money to be made—Australia, the inquiry by giving the evidence”. All this evidence was United Kingdom, the US and China. available at the beginning in 2006 but no one wanted China is interesting. I arrived back from China last to open the bags of evidence and no one wanted to week and someone gave me a book on Rupert Murdoch’s carry on the investigation; they decided to close it ventures into China to secure television and media down. That is the big question not only for the inquiry control. The Chinese were too wise for him. The to take into account but the reason why I ordered a business model that he adopted is described by Murdoch’s judicial review. The police were failing to carry out the vice-president in China in his book China Adventures. inquiry and, frankly, it was only when they came This tells how Murdoch tried to control China’s television 1017 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1018

[LORD PRESCOTT] was a systematic rubbishing and persecution of the and media operations—a Chinese version of Fox News, noble Lord and an endless denigration of the office of BSkyB and newspapers—but totally failed. The Chinese, the leader of the Labour Party which took relentless quite wisely, did not trust him. forms. The noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, is a man like As an example, Harper Collins, which is owned by any other man: he has got vices but he also has the the Murdoch press, negotiated a contract with the tremendous virtues of compassion, a love of justice noble Lord, Lord Patten, for his book on China. The and a love of people, and he showed a real determination Chinese authorities were very upset by what the noble when he faced down the ugliest parts of our party. We Lord, Lord Patten, said about them and Murdoch was knew that and yet it never came through. That is when concerned that his commercial interests would be affected. I began to realise that there was a systematic power to He therefore ordered Harper Collins to cancel the contract what Murdoch was doing to make or break leaders. for that book. This led to the resignation of editors from For more than 30 years, no political party or Prime Harper Collins and the noble Lord, Lord Patten, described Minister has won an election without Murdoch’s support. Murdoch’s actions as “the most seedy of betrayals”. He has the power to make and break kings. The Telegraph reported on this incident and described This is not a party issue—new Labour was extremely Murdoch as “the biggest gangster of all”, and the complicit in accommodating Murdoch. That is why I FT said that Murdoch was “the modern master of have tremendous pride in the leader of the Labour the universe bent double before the potentates of the Party for confronting Murdoch’s power in Parliament. people in Beijing”. Surprise, surprise, Murdoch’s media— The Sun, Sky and the Times—but the Sun in particular— the New York Post, the Australian, the Times,Sky were already beginning to denigrate Ed Miliband; News and Fox News—hardly referred to the matter. It they started running six-minute loops of his repeated was similar here. Even the Wall Street Journal said of mistakes, pulling panda eyes and were beginning Murdoch at that time that, systematically to attack him. “he has a well documented history of making editorial decisions in order to advance his business interests in China, sacrificing When the leader of the Labour Party stood up to journalistic integrity to satisfy personal and political aims”. Murdoch it reminded of the biblical story of King I had to think whether that was the same journal I was David. King David was sitting in his farm looking reading today—and then I discovered that he had after his sheep—his brothers were generals and lieutenants bought the paper. Normally there would be a right to in King Saul’s army—and Goliath, the great bully, the reply, but Murdoch buys the whole damn paper and giant who was going to attack them, was standing gets it to say what he wants it to say. before him. Aristotle said that anyone outside law and Murdoch is the man we are talking about. All relationships is either a beast or a god. In our the others are bit players; Mr Murdoch is the spider in contemporary life, Murdoch has been like a beast and the middle of this net. If we do not deal with him, he a god: he could attack you and destroy you or he could will just go back to the same old practices; he will bid give you great power and glory. He was outside of for BSkyB and use pressure on politicians to influence constraints and outside of law. It was with great them. That is what we know we have deal with. courage that the leader of the Labour Party stood—as King David stood—before the bully and, with a single The FBI is now involved in investigations and so stone, laid him down and began this change. “News International” may soon become “Murdoch Crime International”. It is a family business that has It is a great honour to the Government that they sought power, influence and money around the world. followed the lead of the Labour Party and began to It has bullied Governments, taken out the competition speak of some virtue in our lives—because what we and made billions out of the misery and grief of have had is vice. What Murdoch has bought, and we ordinary people. These days are now no more as the can see it all around us, is accommodation, corruption Sun sets on his miserable empire. Parliament must now and fear. We can see it in the police and the Government; address itself to finding a proper balance between in both sides, there is a real fear to speak freely and a private and public interests and we have started the relentless war on the daily lives of politicians. There debate here. The balance between public and private are good days and bad days—we all have them—but interests is an issue of public and human rights and we our civility was coarsened by Murdoch. It is a wonderful must address ourselves to that. Many individuals have thing that it is Parliament which has stood and that supported this position but, at the end of the day, we within Parliament we have asserted that this tyranny have to be sure that we do not go back to business as cannot go on. usual. We must bring back decency and responsibility Every day when I come in, I give thanks to the into the British press. We can start by completing the statues of the barons around here, because they held job with Murdoch. the sword to King John’s throat when he said that the King could rule without Parliament. They said that it 12.16 pm always had to be a relationship and that the King had Lord Glasman: My Lords, it is with some nervousness to rule in Parliament. Whoever held the sword to that I speak. This is only the second time that I have Murdoch’s throat? Who was Murdoch accountable spoken in your Lordships’ House—and I know that the to? He was a beast and he was a god—he was outside first time all noble Lords had to behave themselves. of all relations. So it is a wonderful thing if we can I am also nervous because I am extremely angry. This follow the Commons’ lead here and say that in our is the story of my life because I grew up with Murdoch’s politics we need courage and leadership and that increasing power. The noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, is people make mistakes, but we in this country govern not in his place today but as I was growing up there and rule ourselves with our free institutions and choose 1019 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1020 our own leaders. It is not to be dictated to us by interest as a very recently appointed Press Complaints foreign multimillionaires who rules us and who does Commissioner, although I am speaking today in an not, who is credible and who is not. entirely personal capacity. The statutory regulation of I urge noble Lords to remember that this Chamber media is always ex-post regulation. Ofcom has no is the crown of the constitution. Our obligations are to ex-ante powers to stop publication, nor should it. The uphold the ancient liberties and the balance in the remit of the current PCC does, however, include the constitution to make sure that there is always reciprocity ability to offer ex-ante direction to editors on behalf and balance in relationships—and I am sure that of members of the public. The PCC brokers hundreds today we will not fail to uphold that duty. and hundreds of effective desist actions to editors at the request of innocent members of the public who suddenly find themselves at the centre of a media 12.22 pm storm. This can mean the withdrawal of reporters and Lord Grade of Yarmouth: My Lords, as my noble photographers from someone’s pavement; it can be the friend Lord Fowler has happily reminded me, I started editor’s agreement not to publish something; or it can my working life as a trainee sports writer on Hugh be an agreement to desist from simply approaching a Cudlipp’s Daily Mirror, a brash but intelligent, mass family or individuals for comment. This happens in market, pre-Murdoch tabloid. It was the people’s paper multiple cases every single week inside the PCC. and it sold five and a quarter million copies every day. The notion of trying to draft a statute to enable That was in the 60’s. Since then, I have been involved pre-publication desist notices while maintaining a free in the discussion and resolution and management of press does not belong in a democracy. Such a statutory countless tricky editorial issues at ITV and Channel 4 regime would undo at a stroke the good works that and as a quasi-regulator at the BBC. I have even the PCC presently undertakes. Ordinary members of recently been a complainant. the public derive huge comfort and satisfaction from the I do not want in any way to anticipate the outcome power of the PCC to influence newspapers, and sometimes of the judicial inquiries to come, particularly on the TV editors, and to influence their behaviour—this is future of press regulation. My remarks today in this the important point—ahead of publication. This is welcome and timely debate are designed to explore the untold good news story of the current self-regulating some principles and arguments that will inevitably regime. This must not be lost. For me it is the self-evident centre, and have indeed already centred, on the statutory and overwhelming argument against statutory regulation. versus the self-regulatory. In the debate about a new and improved form of The knee-jerk reaction to the current scandal is that self-regulation, of course there are many lessons to be the newspapers have been drinking in the last chance drawn from the present regime. I give a few examples. saloon of self-regulation for so long that it is now well In my view, any new model needs to pass the Caesar’s past chucking out time. The press has always set its wife test: it must not just be independent but it must be face against statutory regulation, denouncing the very seen to be fully independent of those it is regulating. idea and dismissing it as the enemy of free speech. Any future constitution and governance structure needs Well, “Up to a point, Lord Copper”. There is an to deliver transparent independence from the working overwhelming argument against statutory regulation, press. Crucially, it will need greater powers of sanction. which I will come to, but I am not exactly sure that this This will need to be binding on all newspapers. There is it. must be no room in self-regulation for any single The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill of Bengarve, is newspaper to opt out. Any new model will need to be right. The news and current affairs journalism at ITV, properly resourced and therefore able, if necessary, to Channel 4, Channel 5 and Sky are regulated by the afford to commission independent investigations as statutory media regulator, Ofcom, which drafts statutory required. The current PCC has no such funds. Funding producer codes. The BBC’s news and current affairs is for the new body can still be required from the newspapers overseen by two bodies, both Ofcom and the BBC themselves as at present. This is no different from Trust with overlapping powers. I join the noble Baroness, broadcasting, advertising and other regulated sectors. Lady O’Neill, in saying that there is no evidence In future, the chairman, like the rest of the board and whatever on the screen that this statutory regime staff today, should be appointed independently and inhibits their freedom to carry out responsible and not by the newspapers. robust overlapping powers. However, what statutory regulation cannot and will never be able to do is to I think we can all agree that a robust and free press prevent wrongdoing from happening. Anyone who is an essential dynamic in a functioning democracy. thinks that it can, please see me after, and I will take Any new regime must serve those two principles and it them through the thick volume marked “Broadcasting must also be capable of promoting the ethical imperative. horror moments”—but please, not before the children But make no mistake: only self-regulation can be are in bed at nine o’clock. But after broadcasters get it relied on to continue delivering ex-ante relief and wrong, they certainly get it in the neck, and they feel it restraint for the members of the public it is there to in the wallet, from Ofcom. But let us not ignore in this serve. debate that statutory regulation in broadcasting is A word here, and in conclusion, on what action fundamentally there to ensure impartiality, an irrelevant might be taken in the interim, as we await the outcome concept for newspapers. of the judicial inquiry or inquiries. Leaving to one Having said this, let me say precisely why I come side, as if that were possible, the unconscionable intrusions out against statutory regulation. My objection is founded into grieving families’ privacy, perpetrated by the criminal on my recent experience. Here I must declare my activities of the late News of the World, the secondary 1021 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1022

[LORD GRADE OF YARMOUTH] 12.33 pm fallout—the aftershock, if you like—is the public opprobrium and scorn, both here and abroad, that has Baroness Kramer: My Lords, I hesitate to rise in engulfed the whole of our national press, not just these circumstances. I wanted to speak today not News International. Your Lordships may note that I because I have any special or exceptional knowledge have not described this as a loss of trust. I do not think of the media industry but because it is incredibly this is a case of losing the trust of readers. So far as the important that we have as many speakers from all red-top tabloid newspapers are concerned, I am not parts of this House on this Friday afternoon, which is sure that they ever enjoyed the trust of their readers— probably not convenient for anybody who is here, to loyalty, yes. make it clear both how significant we regard these issues and that we will not allow the matter to slide The recent television equivalent of this print crisis, away. With the extremely welcome appointment of the as your Lordships may recall, was the premium telephone inquiry under Judge Leveson, the closure of the News scandal that, ironically, the press so valuably exposed. of the World, the resignation—as we now know—of Broadcasters immediately realised that to restore their Rebekah Brooks, and the agreement of the Murdochs, reputation, they had to face up to the problem—and father and son, to appear before the Select Committee quickly. No expense was spared on independent legal next week, it would be very easy to become complacent and forensic audit inquiries. Millions of pounds of and assume that this matter will now work its way out compensation were voluntarily paid to charities and through the system. all the evidence gathered was handed both to the police and the regulator. Fines were then imposed; I believe we have a unique opportunity now to try reputations were slowly restored. As President Nixon and contribute to finding the right footing on which to discovered, it is not necessarily the mistake you make; put the regulation of the media in this country so that it is the subsequent cover-up that does for you. we both protect the absolutely critical and crucial In her customarily insightful blog, which I recommend freedoms of the press—as the noble Lord who believes to Members, my noble friend and erstwhile colleague that his words will have been struck said—and protect Lady Stowell wrote the following this week: the public from abuse. It will be clear to anyone who “The thing that’s different between the print and broadcast has listened to the Murdoch family that they expect media’s separate catastrophes is public trust in and opinion of this issue to go away, while Mr al-Waleed and other tabloid newspapers has been low for years and they’ve survived investors in News Corp see that there will be an without it. So the question we have to ask is: what motivation is opportunity to come back and bid for the rest of there for newspapers to get their house in order?”. BSkyB once the dust has settled. I recommend to My noble friend points out that the tipping point in anybody today’s copy of the Wall Street Journal, public opinion was when the hacking moved from the which is sitting in the Library, for the interview there rich, famous and powerful—the bankers, celebrities with Rupert Murdoch. Others have quoted in detail and MPs—to ordinary folk, like the Dowler family, from it but, frankly, you could use the words, “Butter like themselves. The papers are felt to have turned on wouldn’t melt”. There seems to be no real recognition, their own readers. My noble friend then offers this certainly from the Murdoch empire, that the matter advice to the newspapers: has changed, even though that has to be absolutely “So instead of the question TV execs asked themselves: ‘how clear to the rest of us. do we restore trust?’ the question for the newspaper industry to reflect on is: “Do people still think we’re on their side?”. In terms of reform, if the mechanism is to be the I hope the whole House will agree with me that, as a Leveson inquiry, it is going to be important that this first step to demonstrating that the whole press is on House contributes to looking again at the appropriate the side of its readers, national newspapers—title by structure for the Press Complaints Commission. I title, editor by editor —should make a statement in have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Grade, that I do their own columns that they condemn the chasing of not think that the public have the kind of confidence spurious scoops by criminal means and, further, they in that body that he may have suggested. At the very should declare unequivocally that their paper has not least, it looks utterly impotent. I believe that to most taken part in any such activities. We all hope that this of the public it looks as though it gives the interests of issue is limited to what we know today but, in the the media much more significance and weight than the words of Private Eye, I think we should be told. interests of the individual. It would seem that fundamental reforms are needed, such as making sure that the commission at least has a majority of lay people on Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, may I ask it—somewhat closer to two-thirds—having a tightening-up one short question? Having listened to this debate and, perhaps, the actual implementation of the code and, indeed, to most of the debates—I apologise for of conduct and having proper penalties, which have having lost my way here—surely care has to be taken not existed in the past, including potential imprisonment to ensure that the requisite freedom of the press, and I for the obtaining of personal information. It seems to stress requisite, is not inhibited? Some of the reasoning me that there have to be real teeth to any commission was just given by my noble friend. but that has not been its past character. We have sat around with the phone-hacking scandal Baroness Northover: My Lords, may I remind noble on our hands for several years, in which the evidence Lords that we have a speakers list? has either been in the public arena or, certainly, before a very wide range of people and the Press Complaints Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I did not Commission has been able to act in only the most know and I am so sorry. Well, it need not be reported. limited way to deal with that crisis. Frankly, if we had 1023 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1024 not had the appalling revelation of what happened to use this opportunity to ensure that our press regulation the Dowler family, we would still be in that same is put on an utterly proper footing that we would all situation. We cannot continue with a regulatory structure agree on. which allows that to happen. I looked at a speech that James Murdoch made in I thought it might be quite interesting, since the 2009, where he said that the independence of the press issue of plurality has come up, to take a look at the could be protected only by profit as the primary stable-mates of the News of the World and see how driver. I think we would agree that the independence they had been covering the phone-hacking story, especially of the press is assured not by profit but by recognising since all of them regard themselves as aggressive, the values of our society, the rights of the individual investigative media outlets which look without fear and putting the freedom of the press alongside that. and favour. It has to be said of the Times, the Sunday Let us take this opportunity to ensure that we achieve Times and BSkyB that they were, essentially, very late the greater good, the silver lining, out of what has in coming to the table and recognising the issue. When been a terrible cloud. they finally did, there were quality stories but it cannot be said that it was the best day for outlets that call 12.42 pm themselves investigative freedom fighters on behalf of the public. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, events have moved at a break-neck pace in recent days—even this Looking at the Sun, it struck me as absolutely very day, with the news of the resignation of Rebekah appalling that there was almost no coverage. When it Brooks. It therefore behoves us all to recognise finally came, if you were reading the Sun you would the difficulty of analysis in such rapidly changing have assumed that Rupert Murdoch had uncovered circumstances. We need to recognise the fundamentals the phone-hacking scandal and was leading the of the problems that face us. It has often been said that investigation and looking for the remedies. I found it the United Kingdom enjoys the best press in the world most chilling of all—this may go back to my first and a great deal of the worst. This may be an opportunity point—that the editorial on 11 July by Trevor Kavanagh, to ensure that our people are served by somewhat which was essentially regretting the death of the News better than the worst as far as the tabloid press is of the World, was a diatribe against the BBC. It ended concerned. with a scarcely veiled threat that basically said, We should not underestimate the extent of the “But we should examine closely the motives of those who public revulsion at what has gone on and the public brought it”— will of course expect intelligent and considered action the News of the World— by us. The problem is that, while we live in emotive times with regard to these issues, there will be a “to its knees”. considerable lapse of time before the public inquiry The notion that the empire has accepted the verdict of produces its analysis and its identification of wrongdoing. the public and recognised the full extent of these issues The extent to which that then sustains the public will is very far from the reality. We cannot allow that for effective change is an interesting dimension of the creeping dominance of the political voice, by either difficulties that we face. the Murdoch empire or any other empire, to happen I served on the Select Committee on Culture, Media again. and Sport in the other place for several years. I recall I raise again the issue of ownership, which others the Sun newspaper, in the form of its extraordinary have mentioned. It struck me that we might have been editor at that time, Kelvin MacKenzie, coming to the in an extraordinary situation in the next few days, in committee simply to display his total contempt for all which Murdoch father and son could have been called politicians and the political process and to indicate before the Senate in the United States but we might that the Sun was the moral force that actually responded have found ourselves impotent to call them before a to the people, while politicians were not worth a row committee of this House. It is still unclear to me what of beans in terms of their attempts to inquire into the the legal position of this House is in relation to owners issue of the power of the press. of newspapers who are not citizens of this country. Things have changed, partly because public opinion That whole issue has to be part of the examination. As has expressed revulsion at what has gone on. That someone else pointed out, it might be interesting to opinion has been guided by the fact that several talented raise the issue of tax residency when we are having individuals, like Nick Davies of the Guardian and my that kind of conversation. We cannot face that kind of honourable friends in the other place, Chris Bryant humiliation again. and Tom Watson, have been brave enough to sustain I come from a party that obviously has not had an argument that we as politicians, as we all know, close relationships with the Murdoch empire. One can have often shied away from in the past, simply because say that it has either ignored us or, from time to time, of the raw power of the Murdoch press. The fact that viciously attacked us—it did so in a very personal way the balance has changed and we have an opportunity, to Nick Clegg at the most recent election. I am convinced, though, does not mean that we should underestimate though, that we have to hold together and be above the difficulty of responding to that opportunity. party in the way that we deal with these issues. I went I appreciated the points that the noble Baroness, to hear part of the debate in the other place, and I Lady O’Neill, put forward about the challenge that have to say that it began to break into a partisan lies before us. Are we in this country going to produce debate across the Floor. That did nothing to assist us a law of privacy that protects individuals from the in the primary purpose that we must have, which is to most outrageous intrusions into their lives? We all 1025 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1026

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] was perhaps not its most probing. Having been a know the costs of a law of privacy regarding press journalist, a banker and now a politician, I feel that I freedom as represented in France, for example, so am perhaps going to have to try estate agency to there are real dangers with such a law, yet who can enhance my standing and public esteem. doubt that the intrusions into privacy by News There is no excuse for the phone hacking and International that have occurred and have been bribery. Now, quite rightly, both practices and the documented in recent years, including, but not only, industry in general will be examined by judicial inquiry. those by the News of the World, present a very real However, we must be careful not to endanger journalism issue? There is a demand from the public that we offer in general. It can be a force for good. The London elements of protection for ordinary people. Evening Standard’s current campaign to improve literacy Then there is the aspect of press regulation. I agree has the potential to enhance many thousands of lives. with all the speakers who have indicated thus far that It may not be on the same scale of bravery as was that self-regulation looks to be a busted flush, certainly if of the Sunday Times campaign on behalf of thalidomide self-regulation means a minor revamping of the Press victims, but it is shining a light on something of which Complaints Commission, which has manifestly failed politicians should be ashamed. to play its role in the emergence of this crisis. Responsible journalism should continue to do that. What is the model for regulation if not self-regulation? It should inform, it should stimulate, it should even I agree with those noble Lords who have indicated that entertain—but it should never mislead. If it does err, it we might start by looking at television regulation. should be quick to point to the error of its ways. That After all, we are conscious of the fact that there is a is why I was somewhat surprised to see that great great deal of freedom for, and some significant impacts campaigner for press morality, the paper that has done on public opinion have been produced by, effective so much to expose phone hacking, the Guardian, decide investigative television journalism—some of the best that its corrections column on page 36 was the place to in this country. However, is it the case that the nature tell readers that, actually, the Sun’s story about Gordon of television regulation is readily applicable to the Brown’s son was not the result of information being press? There are some real difficulties in that area. obtained from accessing medical records, as the Guardian That is why this debate—which has gone on for at had so boldly declared to the world. Newspapers can least two decades, and I guess rather further back into be as guilty as politicians of finding a good place to the mists of time than that—indicates how difficult bury bad news. I contend that page 36 is probably not the position is. the place. We should rejoice that the cathartic effects of recent developments are such as to give us the chance to give Lord Prescott: The Sun does it. our people a better deal than that which has obtained in the worst of the press in recent times; unless, that is, one thinks, “Well, it is just Murdoch and News Baroness Wheatcroft: That does not make it right. International”. I remember my father’s shock 50 years Now that the spotlight is shining so intently on my ago in a “liberal” household at the News Chronicle,a trade, it is quite right that we should be focusing on definitively reputable organ of civilised opinion, being areas beyond hacking. The relationships between the replaced by the Daily Mail through our letterbox. As press, the police and politicians are now rightly under far as he was concerned, the Daily Mail was a right-wing scrutiny. However—and I know that there will be junk newspaper substituted for the Chronicle by the many in this House who do not believe me—in many sheer force of the ability of the Harmsworth Press to years of working for Rupert Murdoch, both at the buy out the title and do so. Times and the Journal, I never felt under any pressure These issues of press ownership have been with us to write a particular story or take a particular line. I for a considerable period. Although we are now was free to express the opinions that I held, and they concentrating on News International, we will have to were rarely flattering to the Governments that my legislate for the press in this country in general. We do proprietor supported. Nevertheless, I wrote what I not have an easy path before us. wanted. However, I experienced appalling pressure from 12.50 pm what I suppose one must term the other side of the divide. Noble Lords may recall that when Gordon Baroness Wheatcroft: My Lords, I first congratulate Brown became Chancellor, he installed as his henchman my noble friend Lord Fowler for having pursued this one Charlie Whelan. My economics editor at the time issue with such vigour. I also support his opening wrote a story to which the Chancellor took exception. remarks that we should not condemn all journalism Mr Whelan called her and, when the swearing came to because of the allegations surrounding some newspapers. an end, told her that the Times would be punished. It I do that with something of a vested interest, as would be ignored for a year—no invitations, no press someone whose career has largely been in journalism. releases and no interviews. As far as the Treasury was I have worked extensively for what is now dubbed “the concerned, it would not exist. We took this to be Murdoch press”, particularly the Times and the Wall bluster but the curse of Whelan duly took effect. My Street Journal; occasionally I still write for the Times. economics editor, a well respected journalist, tried Having listened to my noble friend Lady Kramer, I reasoning but to no avail. We did not get the information confess that, having always had the highest admiration that we needed on behalf of our readers. In the end I for the editorial standards of the Wall Street Journal,I had to take up the matter with the Permanent Secretary, concur that this morning’s interview with the proprietor who quite understood that a politician or his adviser 1027 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1028 could not deprive a national newspaper of legitimate relations between politicians and the media that have chains of communication with a government department. been highlighted. It is also fair to note that these That was a dreadful attack on the democratic process. matters have been exposed by the better sections of Bullying on that scale is rare but it shows why we the press and in the debate in the House of Commons must be careful not to see the relationship between earlier this week, tabled and led by my right honourable politicians and the media as merely the first always friend Ed Miliband. We have seen vented the loathing trying to curry favour with the second. In its current of many politicians for the media. While relations form, this relationship works both ways. Both have a between individual politicians and individual journalists degree of power and influence and use it, not always in are frequently cordial—and there is nothing wrong the right manner. The media are hungry for scoops with that—institutionally, the relationship between and politicians can hand them out. In City journalism, politics and the media has become poisonous. Why where I cut my teeth on a Sunday newspaper, in the should there be this loathing? old days we would wait for what was known as the Friday night drop. Before insider trading became an There is a loathing of the recklessness with the offence, public relations people would go around, truth of some journalists, the all too habitual trivialisation distributing various “scoops” that we could print on of issues, the assumption that there appears to be in Sunday. That dried up when the law was tidied up, but extensive parts of the media that the attention span of the same thing has not happened in political journalism; the public is minimal and that issues are best reported scoops, interviews and exclusives are handed out. and discussed in terms of personalities, and that politics is little more than an unsatisfactory subset of the Increasingly, the trend has been for announcements entertainment industry. There is a loathing of the that should be made by the Government to Parliament selectivity of reporting, the blurring of fact and opinion, being made instead through newspapers to their readers. the hypocritical combination of high sententiousness This is not healthy. The rot had clearly set in when and low practice, the wilful confusion of the public Tony Blair, as Prime Minister, told his team, as they interest with what interests the public, as the noble developed their policies on the family, that, Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, just said, and the swaggering “we need two or three eye-catching initiatives … We need more. I rejection of ethical obligation on the basis that journalism should be personally associated with as much of this as possible”. is not a profession but a trade. Legislators must be In those words are encapsulated two of the problems concerned if journalists set themselves above the law, that have contributed to the current miasma: too particularly if newsgathering methods include bribery much emphasis on the cult of personality and too and hacking. Legitimate ends surely cannot justify little respect for Parliament. The former has led to the illegitimate means. There is a loathing of the cynical media being awash with stories about the private lives exploitation of self-regulation and the contempt with of people, many of whom I have never even heard of which elements of the press treat the Press Complaints but who seem to be worthy of headlines. From what Commission and its code. What we witness and what has come to light it seems that much of the hacking we dislike is the exercise of power without responsibility was aimed at establishing what footballers were doing and what we loath, on the occasions when it occurs, is off the field—a variation of the offside rule, as I the cruelty of the media—the malice and the thuggery understand it. The public are clearly interested in this of the press pack in full cry, which is the modern stuff but it is not in the public interest that appetites equivalent of the lynch mob. for seedy gossip should be fed. As these inquiries progress, we will examine what While these are proper grounds for disapprobation, really is in the public interest. Things have to change. they are liable to be mixed with a jealous resentment It will not be easy to reach agreement on this. It will be which may be less legitimate and which we ought also even harder to find a means of regulation that can to consider. Politicians often feel that journalists do safeguard it in an internet age. I am grateful to my not take them at their own estimate of themselves, are noble friend Lord Grade for his ideas; there is meat insufficiently deferential and do not report them as there on which we can build. Regulation clearly needs they ought to be reported. There is a feeling that, if to be tightened up. they notice us at all, it is to caricature us, and that However, on the second point—that of relationships humiliation at the hands of the sketch writers is the between the media and politicians—I was grateful to best recognition that many a Back-Bencher will ever the noble Lord, Lord Glasman, for reminding us of receive. There is a resentment among politicians that the story of King David. The message is that politicians many journalists are better than they are at their need to be brave. They should not quake with fear of job—they are cleverer and quicker. There is a jealousy newspapers, whether they are owned by Murdoch or that in the public perception and often in reality anyone else. As Prime Minister, my noble friend Lady journalists rather than politicians lead the national Thatcher did not kowtow to any newspaper baron. debate, and that campaigning journalists are often She did what she believed in. There is a message there. more effective than campaigning politicians. There is a fear on the part of politicians that the media have displaced Parliament. Where is the true debating chamber 12.59 pm of the nation? Is it the House of Commons or is it the Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, there has studio of the “Today” programme, of “Newsnight” or been a national shudder of shock, anger and shame at the editorial column of the Sun or the Daily Mail? the degradation of certain sections of the press that There is a competition for power between politicians has been brought to light; at the corruption that has and the media and politicians feel that they have been been exposed in the police; and at the unhealthy losing that competition. 1029 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1030

[LORD HOWARTH OF NEWPORT] However, self-regulation is not sufficient. We have That atmosphere of jealousy, resentment, loathing had 20 years of experience since the Select Committee and exultation in the new discomfiture of an enemy is on National Heritage, of which I was a member, not the best atmosphere in which to design reform. reported on the problem of media intrusion into privacy. The Government were right to set up an inquiry led by The media have had 20 years in the last-chance saloon. Lord Justice Leveson which will proceed deliberately The time has come for the state to create a statutory and gradually to advise politicians and government on underpinning for self-regulation. Statutory regulation, what may best be done. What we should have no of course, should be at arm’s length from the politicians. doubt about is that reform is essential. There is no new principle here. We already have the I see the power of the media as a constitutional Competition Commission and Ofcom, which are issue; indeed, a constitutional issue that is more important responsible for statutory regulation to protect plurality and more pressing than many of the constitutional and to ensure that fit and proper people control the issues that the coalition has chosen to address so far. It media. We have the Information Commissioner, the is a constitutional issue because a free media is data protection regime and the law of libel, about indispensable to our democracy. The media mediate which editors grumble, but they should not pretend information and the public debate. There can be no that statutory regulation is of itself a shocking innovation healthy democracy without a healthy media. On behalf of or a violation of press freedom. The media will no the public, the media should, indeed, scrutinise politicians. doubt fight against it, but Lord Justice Leveson should I am not aware of any country that has found a now design a statutory system to define the boundary satisfactory way to accommodate the media within its between acceptable conduct by the media and that polity. In the United States the First Amendment which is unacceptable, and he should propose sanctions guarantees freedom of expression, but the United that will effectively deter abuse or punish it if it has States has the National Enquirer and “Fox News”. So occurred. As the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, said, the what should we do in Britain? Good constitution-making present crisis provides an opportunity. finds ways to contain power and interest within structures However, when scandals have occurred in the past, that help ensure that power functions for the public Parliament has shied away from its responsibility. benefit; that scope for the abuse of power is minimised; Clutching the tattered banner of press freedom, politicians and that where abuse takes place there can be redress. have shirked tackling abuse. Only unwittingly did Our present constitutional arrangements fail to Parliament act in 1998 with the enactment of the accommodate the power of the media to this standard. Human Rights Act, which incorporated into our domestic In the liberal state to which we aspire we want a very law the right to privacy contained in the European large freedom for the media to investigate, to report, Convention on Human Rights. The judges have begun to expose, to challenge, to develop public understanding, to construct a jurisprudence. That was not a bad way to stimulate opinion and also to inform understanding to embark, and we should praise the courage and by politicians of the public. We should have the largest decisiveness of the judges. However, super-injunctions freedom of the media consistent with other claims and opacity are obviously not satisfactory, and the that a free society must also make, including the Prime Minister was right to say that it is for Parliament establishment and the guarding of a legal right to to enact a law of privacy. personal privacy and the observation of the limits to We must not, this time, shirk that responsibility. We tolerance of decent public opinion. are wrong if we suppose that the present crisis has News of the The extent to which there should be freedom of the already set us free. The closure of the World press will depend upon the extent to which the press is and the resignation of Rebekah Brooks will not prepared to be responsible. It is best, of course, if solve anything. The dynamics of the situation remain there is a culture of responsibility and external restraints unchanged. We will still have a mass media. The are not felt as such. However, where self-regulation configuration of it will be different; Murdoch may fails, legal restraint must operate. There always are loom less large; newspapers may continue to decline elements of the media that are not responsible, and it and new media to grow. But democracy will still is not just the tabloids. Grand editors of quality require information that can be trusted and a media newspapers tell us that they have the right to break the that enables public debate to be articulated. Competition law in what they interpret as the public interest. However, within the media will still be frantic—indeed, cut-throat. the rule of law is a no less important value in a liberal Proprietors and journalists will still want power. Politicians society than freedom of the press. The law must be will still seek to mobilise the media for their own sensible and reasonable, and it should contain a purposes—to get their stories out, to spin and to win presumption in favour of freedom of speech, but that elections. I fear that there will never be the clear water end should not warrant nefarious means such as blagging between the media and politics that the noble Lord, and hacking. Lord Fowler, hankers after. Politicians will still be frightened by the power of the media to inflict damage Self-regulation is essential and it is for the industry on Governments, political parties and individual politicians to redesign the system of self-regulation to produce a themselves. It will be very difficult to achieve a better modified Press Complaints Commission or some other pathology, but we must now find better ways to body that the industry now believes is the right one to accommodate the media within our evolving constitution have. That body should articulate standards, secure and the political life of our country. assent across the industry to them, operate whatever sanctions it can, and negotiate redress for people who are injured, as the noble Lord, Lord Grade, rightly 1.10 pm reminded us. Lord Birt: My Lords— 1031 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1032

Lord De Mauley: I am most grateful to the noble Lord De Mauley: My Lords, perhaps I may respond Lord, for whom I have the greatest respect, for giving to the Leader of the Opposition. If noble Lords agree, way. I draw his attention to the usual courtesy to the then in the rather unusual circumstances in which we House of participants withdrawing if they are unable find ourselves that would seem to be a very sensible to arrive in time to hear the opening speeches in a suggestion. If, as the noble Baroness suggests, noble debate. Other noble Lords who unfortunately found Lords could keep their speeches to two minutes, I am themselves in the same position as him have courteously sure that the House would be very grateful. agreed to withdraw from the debate. In acknowledging that business this morning moved faster than anticipated, Lord Wills: Perhaps I may seek clarification. As I say with great respect that it is for each of us someone who scratched earlier, might I be allowed to individually to arrange our lives to be here even if have my two minutes in the spotlight and, if so, when? matters proceed so quickly. The House even, unusually, allowed five minutes’ grace before the start of the debate. I appeal to the noble Lord to consider carefully Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I think that the convention whether he should speak. If he insists, it is of course a would be to do so in the gap. I am sure that the House matter for the House to decide whether your Lordships would like to hear the noble Lord. wish to hear him. Lord Birt: My Lords, this is profoundly unreasonable. Lord Birt: My Lords, I was going to apologise—I My office called the Whips’ Office this morning, not do apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and the yesterday, and was told that the debate was likely to noble Baroness, Lady Royall. I was misinformed about start at 12.30 pm. I have not prepared a two-minute the likely start time of this debate, and I was here at speech; I have prepared a longer speech, and I am not the time when I was told that it was likely to start. Of willing to speak for two minutes. I have never, and course I will respect the will of the House, and I ask would never, wish to be discourteous in any way to this the House whether it wishes to hear my views on this House. Again, I ask the House to allow me to make important matter. I detect that the mood is that I the speech that I have prepared. should continue. Lord Gilbert: My Lords, I am in a similar position. Baroness O’Cathain: I beg to move that the noble I consulted both the Government Whips and the Lord be no longer heard. This is wrong. Despite the Opposition Whips last night and was told that the fact that we did not say aye or nay, or content or not debate was likely to start at half-past one. I got here content, we assumed that the noble Lord would take well before half-past one. I am very apologetic to the the mood of the House. Other people came late as well noble Lord, Lord Fowler, but we must have some and took not the mood but the convention of the arrangement whereby the people who are responsible House and did not speak. for our getting here too late are called to account. It is simply not fair to proceed on any other basis. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, as the noble Baroness says, it is indeed correct that the convention of the House is that if one is not here at the beginning Lord De Mauley: My Lords, the noble Baroness the of the debate, one should scratch. However, there are Leader of the Opposition suggested a time limit of mitigating circumstances. Although I appreciate that two minutes. I responded that I thought that that was people should be here long before the start of a debate, reasonable, and I hope that the House will agree to go it is difficult if one is told that it will be an hour and a with it. half later. I therefore suggest that rather than noble Lords who were not here at the beginning of the Baroness Kramer: My Lords, I do not know whether debate giving their full speeches, they should limit it is appropriate to comment but everyone seems to be their speeches to two minutes. I have been speaking to doing so. I understand that the convention of the my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, who House is that speeches are not read. Although that asked if she might speak in the gap for a couple of convention is frequently held in abeyance, it means minutes. Personally, I would find that acceptable. I am that your Lordships all have the capacity to consider not a Whip, but I put that forward as a way through and present the key points of their statements, perhaps this matter. with an opportunity for people to read the full speech on a later occasion. Lord Soley: Before the noble Lord responds, perhaps I may clarify that part of the problem was the uncertainty Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, surely the yesterday about the start time of this debate, when we circumstances today are quite exceptional. It seems to were being told by people on the government side that me that the House would be very interested to hear it would start at 12.30 pm. I missed the first few what the noble Lord, Lord Birt, has to say. I am sure minutes of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, that he will confine his remarks to a reasonable minimum, which was not very long, but it was primarily because but I think that we should hear his contribution to this I had a delay elsewhere. I want some guidance on this. debate. One problem with the House is that we do not have clear start times. It would save everybody a lot of problems if we did. My view is that in a debate of this Baroness D’Souza: My Lords, I thoroughly endorse nature, we should let people speak. what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, has just said. 1033 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1034

Lord De Mauley: I am grateful to all noble Lords. I the takeover should be referred to the Competition suggest that we proceed with the debate. If the House Commission for a full inquiry. That, as we know, did wishes to hear the noble Lord, Lord Birt, perhaps he not happen. The Secretary of State used his discretion would like to keep his comments as brief as he possibly to allow News Corp to propose remedies, which it did can. in respect of Sky News but not in respect of the wider issues about dominance and diversity that concerned, Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I do not for instance, almost everyone who spoke in our previous wish to prolong this. I have no objection should the debate on this matter in your Lordships’ House not so noble Lord wish to continue and should that be the many months ago. will of the House, However, if the noble Lord, Lord It soon became clear that, like his predecessors, the Birt, is going to speak, then I think that for reasons of Secretary of State would not bite the bullet; he was equity it should be possible for my noble friends Lord willing to allow the takeover to proceed. Luckily for Gilbert and Lord Myners, as well as the noble Baroness him he was saved by the bell. A single horrendous and the noble Lord, also to speak. episode—a bolt of lightning—switched the fulcrum of the debate overnight. Much as it may have disgusted 1.18 pm us, the hacking of Milly Dowler’s telephone did not Lord Birt: My Lords, following that, I can only raise a brand new issue of principle. Accessing anyone’s sincerely hope that noble Lords think that what I am private communication is in principle wrong. As the about to say is worth hearing. person who produced David Frost’s interviews with This week we have witnessed a shameful reckoning President Nixon in the 1970s, I spent a significant for many of Britain’s leading institutions. No one who amount of time studying Watergate. I echo what the has gained celebrity, or who has been prominent in noble Lord, Lord Grade, said earlier, and offer some British public life over these past few decades, will simple advice to senior News Corp and other media have been at all surprised by recent revelations, for the executives: it is not the crime that brings you down, it scale of intrusion into private lives by a number of is the cover-up. media organisations and by a variety of means—whether We may now face a gruelling few years as a judicial trickery, deception, theft or bribery—has been a inquiry unravels these practices, and not just within commonplace experience for many, as I expect the News Corp. We must await the full evidence that judicial inquiry will draw out. Phone hacking was but emerges; but it is not too soon to begin learning a new and pernicious refinement—a new technological lessons and to consider what we should do next. Our tool of a well plied trade. The perpetrators were not media concentration rules are archaic. News Corp just print media outlets but the variety of agencies and may not own more than 20 per cent of ITV but it may lone individuals who support and serve them. own a far bigger entity—the whole of BSkyB. We Yet despite the widespread understanding of this should prize plurality and seize the moment. We must position, almost no one rose to the challenge of severely reduce the concentration limits in respect of confronting it. The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, is a rare UK media and cross-media ownership. For clarity: I and honourable exception, as are the Information would no more wish to see the Guardian gain a dominant Commissioner and the Guardian. Now that we know position than News Corp. what the police knew, we can see how lamentable was Secondly, as a society we must decide what standards their response. Of course, hacking does not rank with we want in our print media. However the information terrorism but it is none the less a most serious matter was obtained, Gordon and Sarah Brown should not of public interest when the phones of a multitude of have to face the involuntary exposure of their young citizens of every kind are targeted and when some are child’s severe medical condition, and nor should anyone hacked. The police should have mounted a major and else. vigorous investigation and they must look at themselves We have insisted on high standards in our broadcast and understand why.Another institution—the PCC—has media for the best part of a century, as many noble long been a feeble front, unwilling to consider and Lords have observed. At the BBC, there is a thick grapple with the darker forces in the industry that it volume setting out key values and offering guidance regulates. It is a pity that the noble Baroness, Lady and rules on hundreds of editorial matters, and it is Buscombe, is not here today to help us understand constantly updated in the light of experience. Compare why. The noble Lord, Lord Grade, will bring invaluable the BBC’s guidelines sometime with the PCC’s skimpy experience to the PCC in the difficult period that it has folio. The BBC’s guidelines are not an encumbrance. ahead. They are rooted in the public interest and they promote However, the police and the PCC were not alone. it. No one can suggest that the BBC or the other Both main parties have been persistent victims of public service broadcasters which abide by similar these forces, yet have done nothing. The undercurrent principles have not provided a sharp range of opinion, of self-congratulation in the other place this week fearless journalism of exposure and real challenge, could not be less merited. In truth, we all understand and creative expression of originality and daring. why nothing was done. It is natural to cower before A vigorous, pugnacious, sharp elbowed press is a such great and potentially destructive power. But it vital part of our democratic tradition, and no one, but was not admirable. Against the background of these no one, would do anything other than fight to maintain long established behaviours, the events of recent months it. Finally, if we are to have a press which also behaves still seem extraordinary. When News Corp wanted to ethically, we need a regulator with teeth which can not acquire the whole of BSkyB, Ofcom identified many only frame ethical guidelines but can also enforce issues and recommended to the Secretary of State that them. 1035 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1036

1.26 pm should look at these issues today. That is in no sense to excuse the criminality that has made us all deeply Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws: My Lords, I, too, ashamed that the British press has sunk so low. As I had originally scratched. I apologise to the House said, technology has given people the opportunity to because, like others, I had understood that the debate do many of these terrible things, but one is reminded was to start much later. I am grateful for the short time of the famous dictum of Lord Acton that power that I shall take. corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. There I adopt the arguments made by many about the is truly a danger of that with the Murdoch press. terrible conduct that has led to the creation of the judicial-led inquiry. For me, it is about the debasement I was very concerned two years ago, as we all were, of our values. It is interesting to note that three crises by the scandal of Members of Parliament’s expenses, have come to light in as many years involving our which even touched your Lordships’ House. The noble financial system, our political system with the abuse of Baroness who has just spoken referred briefly to that. allowances, and now our press. That tells us something During the debates in another place, I made the point about the power of the masters of the universe and of that it sometimes seemed that the fourth estate was big money, and how it corrupts our society. hell bent on destroying the other three. However, because of that, we must not be tempted into the sort I want to touch on an important point about the of indiscriminate attack that some of the press—not judicial inquiry, which will have two phases. I fear that particularly the Murdoch press in that case—indulged the second phase, about shedding light on corrupt in during the so-called MPs’ expenses scandal. In the practices, will be kicked into the long grass and that it summer of 2009, one was reminded, from one’s historic is likely to be many years before we get to the bottom reading, of Titus Oates—or, in my case, of my memory of what really has gone on. I therefore urge that as a young schoolboy of McCarthy. through the auspices of our political leaders, the judicial inquiry in its purview will have the opportunity to We do not need to go down a similar road. My provide immunity to journalists who have felt ethically noble friends Lady Wheatcroft and Lord Fowler referred compromised by the conduct within their newspapers, to the press. We have many journalists of high repute. and who might be willing to give evidence but do not We owe a great deal to our free press in this country. A want to be in fear of prosecution and of mightier free and responsible press under the law is as essential powers. We must give them assurances that they will to a free society as is a free Parliament. Therefore, not be vulnerable, because only by doing so are we during the inquiries that will take place, and particularly likely to get to the bottom of the corruption. I hope during the parliamentary inquiry that will begin next that our law officers will give guidance on that. It is week when the Select Committee has before it Mr Rupert not a practice that is usually undertaken in this country, Murdoch, Mr James Murdoch and Rebekah Brooks, but it will perhaps be important if we are to flush out we must heed—my honourable friend Lord Fowler the full extent of the abysmal corruption that has referred to this—some of the words in the Times taken place. leader this morning. I also hope that the inquiry will be properly resourced. I speak as a former chairman of a Select Committee. Sue Akers, the police officer who is currently undertaking It is the duty of such a committee to probe, to examine the inquiry into phone hacking, says that the police and to be inquisitorial in the best sense, but not to have 12,800 names to go through and that only 30 or grandstand or seek personal glory or publicity. It must so can be dealt with each week. It will be a monumental ask questions and carry on asking them until proper task, and I therefore ask that real resources are put answers are given: and if proper answers are not given, into it because of the fundamental role that a proper to draw the right and appropriate conclusions. I have and ethical press plays in our democracy. Thank you. great confidence in my honourable friend John Whittingdale, who chairs that committee. I do not know all the members of the committee, because 1.30 pm many entered the House only last year. However, I Lord Cormack: My Lords, I congratulate the noble would say to them all, “On your shoulders rests a very Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, on giving a great responsibility. In a sense, you are acting for short, succinct speech that was entirely to the point. I Parliament as a whole, so ask the questions, pin down am sure that we were all grateful for that. I will begin your witnesses, but resist the temptation to score cheap by thanking my noble friend Lord Fowler, who has points”. slipped out for a moment, for setting a very high As I said, a free press is as necessary to a free, standard for this debate with his opening speech. He functioning society as a free Parliament, but I was was followed by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, who very taken by some of the words of the noble Baroness, also gave a masterly speech that was very moderate, Lady Royall, when she talked about values. She referred sensible and balanced. to her late husband, very movingly I thought. What We need in this debate to set the matter in a has happened in this country over the past two or historic context. Technology has made a difference, three decades is a loss of values. Children are being but we have had times when press barons wielded brought up in an atmosphere where they are not enormous and indeed unwieldy power. One has only taught the difference between right and wrong. It is an to mention Northcliffe—the Napoleon of Fleet Street— inevitable progression from that childhood that in and Beaverbrook, to know that there were those in the adulthood young men and women will be tempted to past who might have done great good but who also think that anything goes, so long as it produces the wielded enormous power. It is in that context that we appropriate result. That is the culture that underlies 1037 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1038

[LORD CORMACK] Press Bill. We took evidence, which was highly publicised much of this perverted investigative journalism that by television, radio, and by one or two newspapers but has brought us here this morning. Investigative journalism hardly any of the others. The whole record of that is a marvellous thing, but if it is perverted, it sullies committee is now in the House of Commons Library and besmirches our whole society. and, I think, the House of Lords Library and it gives I believe that out of all this, good must come, and it the full details. In that Bill, I tried to balance the is essential that we all play our part in trying to ensure freedom and responsibility of the press. One of the that it does and that we see an end to the manipulation things that the Sun used to say at the time was, “This is and a proper regard and mutual respect between the really just about stopping the press from publishing” media, politicians and the great British public, to and it attacked me for what it claimed was trying to which both Houses of this Parliament are answerable close down and to limit the press. and to which the press also should be answerable. I The trick in this is to get the right balance between very much hope that there will be a reawakening of a freedom of the press, which we all want, and the proper sense of moral probity and right and wrong as responsibility which we know has gone badly off the a result of what has happened to families such as the rails. It is possible to have a statutory model, which, as Dowlers over this past week. It is unthinkable that that the noble Lord, Lord Grade, indicated, is the model of should have happened. It must never happen again. the electronic media, television and radio. But there is A heavy responsibility rests upon us, but we have to also the Advertising Standards Authority, which has a see this in its historic context. We must not panic statutory back-up through Ofcom if it is necessary. because there is no situation that is not made worse by panic. What we have to do is to try to ensure that in One of the first questions that an investigation has the future there is a properly regulated press that is not to answer is: should we have a statutory or a non-statutory inimical to the idea of a free press. I am not sure that I body? It is a difficult question. I think that statutory entirely agree with my noble friend Lord Grade about regulation can be done without losing press freedom. self-regulation. Other professions are not self-regulated It is perfectly possible to do it, although there is an in the way that he seemed to imply, but, obviously, he argument about desirability and some of the issues speaks from great experience, and one wants to be able around what is a newspaper and what is not a newspaper. to consider with great care, after this debate, what he There is a problem in that area. said. I believe that we need to have a press complaints We have been faced with unaccountable power by commission—and this is no criticism of my noble large media groups. This applies not just to News friend Lady Buscombe, who sadly is not in her place—in International, but to other groups too. What has been which we can all have confidence and trust. Trust is happening is not new. One of the reasons I stress this the lubricant of a free society, and it is sadly lacking at is that when people say that politicians did not fight the moment. this issue, actually, a lot of us did. A lot of us got a lot I am comforted by two things. I never subscribe to of flack for doing so, as many people will know, in the Balfour’s dictum that nothing matters very much and other House and in this House at times. Certainly, I most things do not matter at all, but I think there is have had things happen to me which should not have something in the words of the late, great Viscount happened by a decent press, but, curiously, at the end Willie Whitelaw who said that things are never quite as of the day, I did not feel intimidated. Why? It is bad or as good as they seem. because I am a fairly experienced politician and a fairly experienced public figure, and at times you shrug Lord Grade of Yarmouth: Before my noble friend your shoulders. But you do it about things that members sits down, taking his historical reference to the relationships of the public should not have to shrug their shoulders between, let us say, Northcliffe, Beaverbrook and the about. If my kids are photographed over the garden leaders of political parties— wall I can deal with that in my own way with the journalists involved but an ordinary member of the Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, there have public cannot do that, which is something we need to been lots of problems with the speakers list. Perhaps emphasise. this discussion can take place later. On privacy, a key question for the committee concerns 1.40 pm the balance between the need to know and the desire to know. Do we want to leave it to the courts to decide Lord Soley: My Lords, first, I congratulate the the balance between Articles 8 and 10 of the European noble Lord, Lord Fowler, who has a long and convention—privacy and the right to free speech—or distinguished record, on what he has been doing recently. do we want a separate privacy law? That key question To repeat what I said earlier, my apologies for missing must be answered. I have referred to the power of the some of the opening comments for the reasons I press in this House and in the House of Commons on explained. Let me come to the heart of the issue. I do previous occasions. I have publicised all of this and it not think at this stage that I want to address the issue has been in the public domain for some time. I mention of what we do about the Press Complaints Commission. again the case I took up against the then editor of the As an investigation has been set up into that, today we Sun, Stuart Higgins, and the gross harassment and need to identify some of the key questions that have bullying that was happening at the Sun. Ihavetosay been asked over time and need to be answered. to people who work for News International that I do The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, will recall that in not believe that it was not known; I do not believe that 1992 he chaired an official committee of the House of it was not known to Rebekah Wade; and I do not Commons on my Freedom and Responsibility of the believe that it was not known to Rupert Murdoch. 1039 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1040

Why do I say that? When it happened I got convincing be taken into account. It is also clear that the issue of evidence from a senior member of News International, payments made to the police must be taken into whose confidentiality I will still respect. I had account. The other very difficult matter the committee already spoken to two of the people who were most will have to consider is that if we are to have a body, dramatically involved and had suffered a lot. One of either statutory or non-statutory, that can impose them, a woman, is still under an injunction from News punishments on the press, those punishments, again, International not to talk—and this from an organisation must not inhibit the freedom of the press to report. that complains about injunctions from people in public There has been a long history of this and I have had a positions. long involvement in it. For the first time for 20-odd I shall read a letter from Olswang, the solicitors for years I feel that we are getting somewhere. It is not the victim at the time and now, of course, the solicitors before time. representing News International: “The lady concerned was completely without fault”. 1.48 pm This is what News International claimed, but at the end of the day the editor was the person who made the Lord Stoneham of Droxford: My Lords, I have to publisher a vast amount of money per week and he declare an interest as a former group production director ran his own show. Therefore, and personnel director for News International eight years ago, and a beneficiary of the News International “the editor’s staff were disposable”. pension scheme. As someone who spent his life in That is exactly what happened at News International newspapers, I am saddened by the developments of last week. When I wrote to Rupert Murdoch asking the past few weeks and the impact on the reputations how much was paid, I was told not by Murdoch but by of all those who work in the newspaper sector. The other people that it was half a million pounds. That is only encouraging factor which should not be forgotten a lot of money and you do not get it for having your is that it was the determination and diligence of other bottom pinched. There was then some argument about parts of the press that brought this abuse of media whether it was as much as that, but of course a lot of power into the public domain. the expenses were also paid. I still do not know the figure. Did I get a reply from Rupert Murdoch? No, I did not. The News International I worked for was a brilliantly I wrote to Rebekah Wade, who replied immediately to successful operation, producing 5 million newspapers say—this is how the intimidation can work—“Tell me, a night. It had transformed the technology and the Mr Soley. How many cases of sexual harassment did restrictive practices of the past. All four of its titles you deal with when you were chairman of the had been revamped into vibrant titles. Journalists Parliamentary Labour Party?”. The answer, incidentally, went to work for News International because the is that I did not get any complaints. But you can see company valued and resourced them. BSkyB has been the mode they operated in; it was immediately to try a brilliantly innovative business and the group employed an attack on me without answering the question. But some of the best in the sector. It was led by the media how can you pay out large sums of money without the genius of his age. owner knowing, let alone the editor? I then got another What has gone wrong and what can we learn from letter from the human resources manager who simply said it? The key is that one of the paradoxes of market that he was going to close the correspondence with me. capitalism is that success can breed arrogance and I turn to the power of the press. The press will often complacency. Rupert Murdoch was too brilliant an say, “We are here to hold power to account”. I agree entrepreneur to allow complacency, but he bred an with that, but of course it immediately raises the other arrogance culture which has now undermined his question which the committee will have to look at: company’s reputation. Too much market power was who guards the guards? If they do not report what I connived at and ignored by the political establishment was doing on my Freedom and Responsibility of the of this country. That fed the arrogance of people who Press Bill, and if they do not report it when I run that thought they were untouchable. It led to overdominant story, which was reported on the BBC “Today” power, where pricing policy, promotional spend and programme, by the Guardian and the Independent and cross-subsidisation of titles all hinted at anti-competitive then died, you have a real problem on your hands. activity, which was suspected but was never exposed. I want to end on two points. Ownership is an issue It meant that established politicians cowered rather as is the issue of the link between politicians and than face up to them; it has clearly made some of their journalists. Let us remember that in the 1970s an staff think they are above the law; and it seduced and elected politician could expect to be reported in the compromised the police. Arrogance has grown as they Times. I do not want to go back to such simple became more dominant and became less subtle. methods, but when that stopped, what happened instead One of the signs of the changing judgment in the was that newly elected people like myself realised that company was the ill-judged decision by the Sun to we had to make links with journalists in order to run a ditch Gordon Brown’s Labour Government in the story. That is not going to stop, but even with the new middle of the Labour Party conference in 2009, just as media which will change the nature of this argument it had abandoned John Major ahead of the 1997 general considerably, we will need to look at how journalists election. It was arrogant; it was ill judged; it was an and politicians work together to run a story. incitement to the understandable ill will and resentment I want briefly to mention the issue of post-publication. which has boiled over in the past couple of weeks. Any controls on the press, whether voluntary or not, What do we need to do? First, we have to grapple need to recognise that they have to be imposed post- and challenge ownership and size in the media sector. publication, not pre-publication. I hope that that will It is the key issue now. The current mood in the 1041 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1042

[LORD STONEHAM OF DROXFORD] The danger in the current mood of hysteria and country is very much like that in post-war France after sanctimony is that it will lead to restrictions on the freedom the fall of the Vichy regime, when nobody would of the press. I welcome the recent speech of the current admit to being a supporter of Marshal Pétain. Deputy Prime Minister. We need now a structure of Last December, the Business Secretary, whom I am regulation which preserves media freedom while curbing sad that the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, did not abuse and, particularly, deals with concentrations of mention in her roll of honour, almost alone questioned unaccountable and uncontrollable power in the media. the dominance of the Murdoch empire. He was prepared to ask whether it is right to accept that 40 per cent of 1.56 pm the market is too much for Tesco but not to apply the Lord Imbert: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord same principle to News International. News International Birt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The has become almost too dominant in newspapers. Until Shaws, I, too, apologise to the noble Lord, Lord a few days ago, we were prepared as a country to Fowler, and the two noble Baronesses who followed complement that press dominance with a similar him for not being here at the opening of the debate. In dominance in broadcasting, where Sky last year spent my relative infancy as a Member of your Lordships’ 50 per cent more on television than the BBC. The House, I took the advice that I was given by the same figures are stunning: £6 billion against £4 billion. source as the noble Lord, Lord Birt, that the debate It is clear that corporate governance is not working would start between 12.30 and 12.45. I decided to get in the press media. Did anyone in News International here 30 minutes earlier—frankly, that was only to evaluate the damage done to its journalistic brand by ensure that I got a seat—and the debate had already compromising journalistic integrity and engaging in begun. I apologise to your Lordships and, particularly, criminal behaviour? It is clear they did not. It has to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. compounded that by condoning a seeming cover-up at I share the revulsion that has been shown over the a senior level. I hope that the recent appointment of a disclosures of the phone hacking practices of the former Labour Home Secretary, David Blunkett, as News of the World and, who knows, maybe other adviser on corporate social responsibility will not prove sections of the media. As a former police officer, I am too burdensome for him. also appalled at the allegations—particularly if they This matter is not confined to News International. turn out to be true—that police officers sold information Other media groups are noticeable by their silence. to a newspaper or newspapers owned by News Why are they not declaring that none of their journalists International. Whether it is illegal phone hacking or, phone-hacked, bribed policemen or illegally processed equally, the unlawful selling of information to the personal data? The silence suggests that they know press by serving or former police officers, we are all cannot or they fear the worst. hanging our heads in dismay at such disgraceful activity, I was interested in what the noble Lord, Lord and the sooner we get to the bottom of this the better Grade, said. There are others, however, calling for the it will be for everyone. abolition of the Press Complaints Commission. It It was therefore with great relief that I heard that needs a thorough revamp; it needs to be strengthened; the Government had asked Lord Justice Leveson to it needs greater independence, proper investigation undertake a thorough and public inquiry to do just powers and the ability to enforce corrections and that. The terms of the inquiry are wide-ranging, as sanctions. If this model can be applied to broadcasters, they should be, and all noble Lords will be aware of why cannot it be applied to the press? the scale of the inquiry following the Statement on It was clearly not in the public interest that Vince phone hacking given in another place on Wednesday Cable was silenced on media issues by the Daily Telegraph of this week, just two days ago, and repeated in this in December last year. The PCC declared that the Chamber by the Leader of the House the same afternoon. Telegraph conducted “unacceptable subterfuge”. Did I am sure that we are all relieved at the extent and Vince Cable get a fulsome public apology from the terms of the inquiry. Telegraph? Did the journalist get disciplined rather In the mean time, the police inquiry by a completely than promoted? I simply do not know—and that is new team, led by Deputy Assistant Commissioner Sue why the current system does not have public credibility. Akers, into the phone-tapping allegations will continue and, undoubtedly, the learned judge will examine that most carefully. He will also, we hope, establish the Baroness Buscombe: I am grateful to the noble Lord truth as to why the initial inquiry was not continued. for allowing me to intervene. In declaring my interest We all hang our heads over these dreadful events and as chairman of the Press Complaints Commission, I allegations and until the matter is cleared up— particularly, can confirm that the Daily Telegraph had to publish a from my point of view, the allegations of police full, half-page apology. corruption—my once proud boast that I served for nearly four decades in what I thought was the world’s Baroness Northover: My Lords, we have had many finest police service, the Metropolitan Police, will seldom problems with the speakers’ list today. I suggest that pass my lips again. I, like the present commissioner of after the debate would be a better time to answer such the Metropolitan Police and the vast majority of present questions. The noble Lord should continue. and former police officers, not only in the metropolis but throughout the whole country, will pray that guilty Lord Stoneham of Droxford: The point I was making parties, whomsoever they may be, will be identified is that I do not know that. That is why the Press and soon join the ranks of the unemployed—dare I Complaints Commission does not have credibility. say it, during Her Majesty’s pleasure. 1043 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1044

I have spoken recently to Sir Paul Stephenson, the Lord Justice Leveson so that, whatever it reveals, if present Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police who unlawful or in any way improper, it can be dealt with in my view is a man of the highest integrity. Sir Paul firmly and appropriately. demonstrated his determination to get to the truth of the allegations of police involvement by immediately 2.05 pm asking the Independent Police Complaints Commission to carry out an independent and thorough investigation. Baroness Berridge: My Lords, I believe that Hackgate One important point that I would wish to make is was described by Emile Zola in the 19th century: that, until that investigation has been completed by “If you shut up truth and bury it under the ground, it will but Lord Justice Leveson, I ask that noble Lords do not grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it assume that police have acted in an unlawful and bursts through it will blow up everything in its way”. deplorable way. If there is a guilty party, he or she will Perhaps this is why politicians are struggling to keep be hunted down relentlessly and have to take their the issue reined in. It is not simply to do with legality. I punishment. But it does seem true that, as they say, if am just a newspaper reader, thankfully not a victim, you throw enough mud, some of it will stick. and like most readers I have few answers but many questions. Here are just three. How widespread was In this country, we are fortunate that we have a the collapse of leadership within the press? Why were police service where integrity, determination and honesty there, seemingly, so few Deep Throat-type characters are the order of the day, and if any police officers do in our newsrooms revealing these practices? Have other not contribute to that, they should look for some institutions had similar troubles? other job. I was going to suggest that perhaps they First, how widespread was the collapse? The best should go into journalism. [Laughter.] I hope that that evidence I can find comes from the Guardian column will be struck from the record! It is unfair that revelations called Media Monkey. On 1 May 2002, Media Monkey about phone-hacking practices of some sections of wrote a report on the Guardian’s website on the newspaper the media have been used to level accusations at the industry’s Princess Margaret awards. These awards police service as a whole. Am I wrong in thinking that are colloquially called the Shaftas, as they are for the an organisation that would sink so low as to intercept worst journalistic mistakes that year. The 2002 awards messages made to and from those who were already were sponsored by Vodafone. The evening was attended suffering awful heartache and tragedy would not stop by Piers Morgan and the Sun newpaper’s then showbiz at making accusations against others to divert attention editor Dominic Mohan, who is now the paper’s editor. from themselves? But I know that Lord Justice Leveson Media Monkey said: will look at this with his usual thoroughness. “Ring, a ring a story. How appropriate that the most glamorous event in the showbusiness calendar should be sponsored by a To finish, I must, perhaps ill advisedly, make a phone company. Mohan went on to thank ‘Vodafone’s lack of comment about the proceedings in the Home Affairs security’ for the Mirror’s showbusiness exclusives. Whatever does Select Committee earlier this week, when it questioned he mean?”. serving and former senior officers of the Metropolitan I am afraid that this was to an industry audience, Police. I expected a professional, probing and searching which unfortunately leads to the inevitable conclusion examination to take place, to help discover the true that there was widespread collapse in the leadership facts about why the original investigation did not within the press. However, did Vodafone take any continue, the relationship between News International action as the sponsor of the awards? With so much of and senior officers and the question of illegal payments our lives moving on to smartphones, the lack of proper or inducements to one of the former officers. What I security systems for mobile phones must not be lost in did not expect to hear were members of the committee this debate. Also, if you were a member of the audience, laughing at their own somewhat weak jibes. who do you report this to? Do we need a kind of Crimestoppers for whistleblowers? This series of allegations is of the utmost seriousness, but I could not help the feeling that the committee was Secondly, there is the lack of a Deep Throat. It is a enjoying the outing. I imagined, wrongly I hope, that shame that the UK has adopted the word “gate”, from at the closure of the committee’s questioning, its members Watergate, for our scandals but, seemingly, does not would hie off to the bar and enjoy a repeat of some of have whistleblowers of the Deep Throat kind or more their own comments. I am pleased, as all honest police investigative journalists in the Woodward and Bernstein officers will be, that the inquiry where witnesses will be mould. I believe that deeply embedded in the nation’s summoned to appear and be examined under oath will psyche is the idea that you do not snitch. Along with be far more rigorous and searching. In the short institutional cultures of fear if you speak out, that debate following the Statement by the Leader of the makes a toxic mix. We need more whistleblowers, not House on Wednesday, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, leakers. Whistleblowers speak out in the public interest. commented about the worth of the time spent by that I hope that through this inquiry, we will rediscover Select Committee. While admitting that I have no what is genuinely in the public interest—not what is experience of the workings of such committees, could interesting to the public or to the political advantage I seek your Lordships’ indulgence for my impertinence of some. by suggesting that perhaps members of such a committee Gordon Brown was right to question the public might benefit from a course on the art of interrogation? interest in revealing his son’s condition but that is precisely why it could have been stopped, as it was a My final words are thanks and congratulations to clear breach of the Press Complaints Commission’s the Government for appointing this wide-ranging inquiry. code. The idea of the media wielding such power over We look forward to the outcome of the enquiry by leading politicians that they do not use the code is 1045 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1046

[BARONESS BERRIDGE] I thank my noble friend Lord Fowler for the quite chilling. Although one can understand that a opportunity to speak on today’s Motion. I do not father with a son who has cystic fibrosis wants to have envy the task before Lord Justice Leveson and his the condition’s profile raised, his knowledge of Fraser panel, but I wish them well. Brown’s condition was not his news to tell. I hope that he was not paid for such information and I am encouraged 2.13 pm that he estimates that approximately 100 people would Lord Gilbert: My Lords, one of the things that we also have known—and everyone else respected the certainly have to do is reform this House so that we do Brown family’s privacy.Sources of information, including not have a repetition of the intolerable debacle at the celebrities who sell intimate details of their private beginning of today’s debate. This should be perfectly lives, and readers such as me are all responsible. However, simple to arrange. The Front Benches should get for the Sun to be asserting that it is fine to find out the together, and it is simple to agree that business of private information about the children of public figures, certain types will not start before a certain time so that as long as it is done by legal means, is not evidence of everyone knows where they are. It is beyond me why the new ethics the public want to see in the media. we have not done something like that before. The public interest also does not equate to political advantage, so for politicians it is about limiting leaks Lord Prescott: Why? What about the rest of them while preserving whistleblowing. Christopher Galley who were here on time? What about that? was sacked from the Home Office for leaking information to politicians. Politicians need to be very circumspect Lord Gilbert: Finished? about documents that are leaked by civil servants because they supposedly contain information in the public Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I am interest. Governments need to be able to trust civil sure that in the past, although it may have slipped his servants, and politicians and the media should not notice, my noble friend Lord Gilbert has been told provide incentives for conduct by civil servants that that times given for the start of particular items of may not be illegal but amounts to professional misconduct. business are an assessment and may not be relied Unfortunately, the culture of silence in newsrooms upon. In asking everyone else who is here to wait for has been found in other institutions: the Catholic Church; up to an hour, I feel that my noble friend is being a the BBC and ITV over telephone voting scams; HBOS, little unreasonable. which made the whistleblower Paul Moore redundant after he warned of reckless lending practices; and Lord Gilbert: That is precisely the point of my Bristol hospital, when consultant anaesthetist Dr Stephen complaint. They should be something that you can Bolsin broke ranks to expose high death rates among rely on. There is no reason whatever in a modern heart surgery patients who were children. Interestingly, assembly why you cannot do so. Dr Bolsin said why he broke the silence: Having got that off my chest, I want to say how “In the end I just couldn’t go on putting those children to much I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge. sleep, with their parents present in the anaesthetic room, knowing She said, and the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, put that it was almost certain to be the last time they would see their forward the same sentiment, that you had to have sons or daughters alive”. public servants you could trust. I am afraid there is He could not do what he knew in his conscience was one very prominent public servant I do not trust. My wrong. How do you legislate for or regulate that? You speech can be read in an article of 16 March 2009 in cannot. Regulation alone is not the answer. the Independent over the by-line of Mr Stephen Glover: Along with the noble Lord, Lord Glasman, I believe “Should we worry that Ofcom’s new boss has a black mark on that the public feel that there is a crisis of leadership in her copybook?”. our public institutions and are wondering who to The black mark on Miss Colette Bowe’s copybook is trust. Alas, the Anglican Church owns $6 million that when she was director of information at the worth of shares in News Corporation, so I doubt that Department of Trade and Industry she leaked a letter the archbishops are able to step into the gap. Despite from the Attorney-General. She was not a young, this leadership vacuum, we have a once-in-a-generation fledgling secretary; she was the director of information, opportunity to create a modern-day separation of a senior official. Not only did she leak the Attorney- powers between the press, politicians and the police, to General’s letter, an unspeakable thing to do in the first rediscover the meaning of the public interest and to place, she edited it tendentiously, as the Select Committee find out how profits, readership and popularity came found. She edited it in order to do as much damage as to matter more than honesty and integrity. possible to another serving Cabinet Minister, the then I believe that eventually the truth will out. America Mr Heseltine, in pursuance of a feud between him and looked back on Watergate and saw the truth come out the then Mr Leon Brittan—he might have had his as the result of the door to an office being left inches K by then, I am not sure. open so that a security officer realised that someone The committee of which I was lucky to be a member, had been in there. This nation will look back at which had seven Conservative members and was chaired “Hackgate” and see that the truth came out because by a former Conservative Chief Whip, found Miss Bowe’s Prince William and his contact were not available to conduct, “improper, tendentious and disreputable”. I speak directly so left voicemail messages. The royal say again, “disreputable”. I was horrified when I discovered household also had the discretion to know who holds that Miss Bowe was about to be appointed chairman what personal information, and inadvertently that of Ofcom—by a Labour Minister, I am afraid. I found discretion will have served the nation oh so well. out at the very last moment. I managed to buttonhole 1047 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1048 the Minister in the precincts of your Lordships’ Chamber. Deputy Prime Minister—I am surprised to find myself I said, “Have you gone stark staring mad? Do you saying that, but I do—to Miss Wade or Mrs Brooks; I know of this woman’s record?”. The only answer I got do not know which name she goes by these days. He was a smile and a, “That was a long time ago”. said that she should do the decent thing and step I have a second concern about Miss Bowe. At the down. The story says that last night, time of her appointment, an article appeared in the “Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal Al Saud, News Corp’s second largest Financial Times. It said: shareholder, said Mrs Brooks should resign”, if her involvement in the phone hacking scandal was “A Commons committee … cleared her of any wrongdoing”. explicit. He then told BBC’s “Newsnight”: The next day I wrote to the editor. A month later, I “I will not accept to deal with a company that has a lady or a had had no reply. I sent a second letter to the editor. A man that has any sliver of doubts on her or his integrity”. month later I had still had no reply. I sent a third letter I do not see why the British public should be called on saying that I was referring him to the Press Complaints to expect lower standards from their public servants Commission. Noble Lords would be surprised how than this noble prince expects from the staff of News quickly he replied: the next day. I do not share the International. pessimism of everyone in your Lordships’ House about the effectiveness of the Press Complaints Commission; 2.23 pm it certainly scared the pants off the editor of the Financial Times in March 2009. I got an answer, and a Lord Myners: My Lords, I congratulate the noble correction that said that she was not cleared of all Lord, Lord Fowler, not only on securing this debate wrongdoing but was one of five civil servants who had but on the campaign that he has waged for such a long been severely criticised by that committee. It was probably time on press responsibility and accountability. I have the most heavyweight departmental committee that three interests to declare. First, I was chairman of the had ever been set up at the other end of the Corridor. Guardian for 10 years. I am hugely proud of the work It was stuffed full of privy counsellors, Ministers, that Nick Davies and Alan Rusbridger have done in future Ministers and, as I say, its chairman was a exposing what has allegedly happened at News former Conservative Chief Whip. It took a very dim International, particularly against the opposition of view indeed of Miss Bowe. many others in the media, including the Press Complaints Commission. Secondly, I have worked with Mr Jeremy My second concern is therefore how this report Darroch, the chief executive of BSkyB. I will come to came to appear in the Financial Times. Who told the that subject in a moment. Thirdly, I have met Mr Rupert Financial Times that Miss Bowe had been cleared? I Murdoch only once in my life. That was in 1990 when wracked my brains over that. When presented with a he came to me in the City, desperate to raise additional conundrum of that sort, I usually say, “Cui bono?”. funds as he had almost landed News Corp on the rocks Who benefitted from this thoroughly misleading report? as a result of foolhardy financing strategies. I did not It was not a question of exaggeration or a controversial save him by providing more money but others did. interpretation. This Select Committee report could not conceivably be read without realising that criticism I have very little to add to the general debate to of Miss Bowe is in paragraph after paragraph. Cui which noble Lords have already contributed. Proper bono? I consulted many friends: “Can you think of process will now be followed here in the United Kingdom anyone other than Miss Bowe who might have got in and elsewhere to investigate questions of criminality, touch with the Financial Times to tell it that she was morality and probity.YourLordships’House has adopted cleared?”. I cannot. I cannot prove anything, but I the right moderate tone today. However, I cannot have the greatest suspicion. I am afraid that there is a avoid noting that the Prime Minister and the Government prominent public official in whom I have very little vacillated on many issues to do with News International trust. That is a very sad thing to have to say. at every critical decision moment and had to be dragged to the right decision when it was so obvious that there I thoroughly endorse the Prime Minister’s was no alternative, rather than providing the leadership determination that we should have the highest standards that we might have expected. The Secretary of State in every aspect of our public life that deals with the for Culture, Media and Sport bent over backwards to press. I shall be writing to the learned judge, drawing do everything he possibly could to facilitate the acquisition his attention to my remarks today and this article in of BSkyB by News International. He took every possible the Independent, and asking him to take account of action to ensure that the matter did not go to the the need to consider the position of Miss Bowe. I Competition Commission but rather negotiated in might be asked why I have not previously raised this private with the Murdochs and with News International. subject. The answer is quite simple: it is only very That was clearly a very poor judgment by the Secretary recently that I realised that Ofcom had responsibility of State. not only for such things as wavebands, who owns I was going to say that I was sad that the noble which television station and so on, but for passing Baroness, Lady Buscombe, was not in her place. She judgment on the moral fibre of people who own parts then appeared in her place and she has now again of the media. I apologise; I did not know that and it departed from her place. I think she might follow that changes things. Miss Bowe is in charge of the public same chain of events in terms of the chairmanship of body that has had that responsibility given to it. the Press Complaints Commission because it is clear I shall quote briefly from page 7 of this morning’s that the Press Complaints Commission, as the noble Daily Telegraph—a story by Mr John Bingham about Lord, Lord Stoneham, said, needs a completely fresh Rupert Murdoch’s daughter’s “attack on Rebekah start with a new vigour and intention, which is clearly Brooks”. I wholly endorse the message sent by the not there. I felt for the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, 1049 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1050

[LORD MYNERS] to persuade Mr Murdoch that it is no longer appropriate when I watched her being interviewed by Mr Andrew for him to chair this company. There are sufficient doubts Neil on BBC television, but it was clear that the Press about his business judgment. His investments in MySpace Complaints Commission has become an apologist for and AP Dow Jones, the large loss consequent on the the newspaper industry rather than a vibrant and investment in ITV,and the settlements that he now admits independent body performing the role that we would he entered into without fully understanding the facts, expect. I am afraid that the noble Baroness, Lady are surely all reasons why it is no longer appropriate Buscombe, must fall on her sword if the Press Complaints for Mr James Murdoch to chair BSkyB. There is, Commission is to be given a fresh start. fortunately, an excellent alternative in Mr Nicholas Other things need to be done. The Communications Ferguson, the senior independent director of BSkyB, Act 2003 is clearly, with hindsight, deficient: the public who is a man of great integrity and wisdom. I should interest test is too narrow, as are the restrictions placed add that Mr James Murdoch intends to move to New on cross-media ownership. That Act did not anticipate York, which makes it even more difficult to believe the advent of digital media and consequently it needs that he is the right person to chair a British broadcaster. to be revisited as soon as possible. In the mean time, The shareholders of BSkyB other than News Corp Ofcom needs to look seriously at the fit and proper hold 60 per cent of the voting rights. It is within their test, and in particular to articulate the criteria and power to secure these changes and ensure that in processes that will be applied in the future in exercising future News Corp’s representation on the board of “fit and proper” as a test because there is a lack of BSkyB is proportionate, but not so great that it can specificity and clarity. We also need to address the dominate the board of directors. It is important that issue of privacy. We are reminded at this time of the BSkyB in these circumstances establishes an appropriate importance of ensuring that the BBC continues to be distance from News Corp as a shareholder. Fortunately, properly funded in order to provide an independent at last year’s annual general meeting, a number of and reliable source of information and comment. major institutional investors did vote against Mr James I want to focus on corporate governance. The Murdoch’s re-election as a director—Aviva, Baillie governance of News Corp, an American company, is Gifford, Legal & General, and Co-operative Asset not a matter of great concern to this House. The Management. I hope that they will again be given the company is run on hereditary principles and is controlled opportunity to vote on Mr Murdoch and will again by the Murdoch family, even though they have a conclude that they should vote against his re-election; modest equity interest in the business as a result of the and I hope that others will join them. One of the use of shares with super-voting rights. The board of things that we learnt from the banking crisis was that News Corp has clearly been very ineffective. However, the failure of boards was at the heart of what went I want to turn our attention to the board of BSkyB, a wrong in those companies, and the failure of shareholders company in which News Corp has a 39 per cent equity who look after our savings and our pensions properly interest. This company is chaired by Mr James Murdoch. to engage was one of the great deficiencies. There is an A significant number of the directors on the board of opportunity here for the great investment institutions BSkyB are related to News Corp or do not pass the of Edinburgh, London and New York to show that test of independence as defined by the Financial Reporting they have had enough with the way that the Murdochs Council’s governance code. Mr DeVoe, Mr Evans, dominate BSkyB and they should ensure that the Mr Mockridge and Mr Siskind have all previously company has an independent board of directors and a worked for News International while Mr Leighton and truly independent chairman. Mr Nasser are judged not to be independent by length of service. Clearly, the proportion of BSkyB board 2.33 pm directors represented by those who speak for, or are Lord Wills: My Lords, I am grateful for this unexpected sympathetic to, the interests of News International is opportunity to speak. I, like others in my position, disproportionate to the equity ownership that News consulted the Government Whips’ Office and was Corp and News International have in that company. given the same advice. However, I was very grateful for BSkyB will announce its profit figures on 29 July. that advice. I have found the Government Whips’ I urge the board of BSkyB to reflect over the next Office to be invariably helpful, supportive and extremely fortnight on the governance of that company as a invaluable to a novice such as me in your Lordships’ matter of priority and—this is important—to consult House. It was my judgment that proceedings on the with other shareholders. Live Music Bill would continue for rather longer than BSkyB’s corporate governance page on its website they did, and I can only apologise to the House that I talks about all the normal committees that you would was not here at the beginning—and particularly to the expect there to be in a public company—the Audit noble Lord, Lord Fowler, for missing his speech. I am Committee, the Nominations Committee and the grateful for this opportunity and I will try to keep my Remuneration Committee. It also has a committee remarks as brief as possible. In any event, a lot of the that I have never seen before—the Bigger Picture ground that I would have covered in the rather longer Committee. It is not entirely clear what the Bigger speech that had I prepared earlier has already been Picture Committee does but it is pretty clear what the covered by other noble Lords—rather better than I Bigger Picture Committee should now be doing. All would have done. In any event, the Leveson inquiry directors of BSkyB, in accordance with best advice will also cover a lot of these matters. from the Financial Reporting Council, should stand Some commentators have suggested that this issue for re-election at the annual general meeting this summer, is of concern only to the Westminster village. To those including Mr James Murdoch. The board should seek commentators I suggest that they read the book, Flat Earth 1051 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1052

News, by Nick Davies, who has been mentioned many I conclude with a plea to the Government. times, having played such an important part in uncovering Whatever emerges from the Leveson inquiry, whatever this scandal. In the book, which is an invaluable primer recommendations are pursued, they must be for anyone who is concerned about the degeneration properly resourced. There is no point proclaiming the of our print media, he ends with this quote from the objective without willing the means. The Information legendary editor Joseph Pulitzer, who said: Commissioner’s Office, which did such an excellent “A cynical, mercenary, demagogic, corrupt press will produce and courageous job under Richard Thomas and his in time a people as base as itself”. successor, Chris Graham, in revealing the extent of We have been warned. That is all the more reason to breaches of the Data Protection Act, needs to be congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, not only on properly resourced. The previous Government, in difficult securing this debate but for his indomitable pursuit of economic circumstances, found the means to give that these issues in times when this was not as popular a office extra resources. I hope that this Government cause as it has now become. will do so. I hope that the revamped Press Complaints Commission will also be properly resourced. We have For all the shock of the recent revelations, I hope an opportunity to change the culture of our media and that as we proceed we will never forget that not all our politics for the better. I hope that we now take it. journalists are bad or behave badly. There are many decent, honourable professionals who do not break the law, who make fair-minded judgments and who 2.39 pm respect the truth and the ethics of their profession. Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: My Lords, I am We should be wary of any further statutory interference extremely grateful to the House for allowing me to with the freedom of the press. For all the problems contribute briefly to the debate in the gap. I say in my that we have heard about today and elsewhere, a free defence that I have been here from the beginning and and plural press is one of the most fundamental have heard all of the debate, including my noble guarantors of our liberties and we interfere with it at friend’s remarks. our peril. I hope that the Government will think I shall focus on the future structure of regulation of carefully before they rush into any law on privacy. The the press. My career has been in the City, and I began current arrangements allow the courts to balance Articles under a self-regulatory regime. The arguments in favour 8 and 10 under the Human Rights Act. It is a flexible, of self-regulation were that it was quick, flexible and pragmatic arrangement to balance the sometimes there was a community of interest in maintaining high conflicting imperatives of freedom of expression and standards and therefore the rotten apples would be privacy. That arrangement is not demonstrably the thrown out. In contrast, the argument went, a statutory worst option, and it should, in my view, be left alone regime would be slow, the cops would have to catch up longer to see how it works before rushing into any new with the robbers, and it would shackle the City and legislation, with all the risks of unintended consequences, impose a competitive disadvantage. Some echoes of particularly in the current climate. those arguments are present in our discussion of future That does not undermine the case for greater regulation, press regulation. Over 15 years, it became clear that not least because few have the resources to seek redress self-regulation did not, and perhaps could not, command in the courts. Self-regulation has manifestly failed. public confidence. “Letting off one’s friends over lunch” That is not necessarily a criticism of those who have was the phrase used by the self-regulatory regime. given exemplary public service by serving on the regulator; Over 15 years we had to move in two stages to the full it is just a sad fact. I hope that, as the noble Lord, statutory financial services and markets regime of the Lord Stoneham, said, the Government will give due 2000 Act. consideration to a thorough revamp. We need better Therefore, I hope that Lord Justice Leveson will regulation—and not self-regulation. Every time that look at these developments, for I have to agree with any Government have even whispered about tightening the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill of Bengarve, that it regulation, the press has reacted vigorously with dire is surely not beyond the wit of man to devise a warnings of threats to investigative journalism. That is statutory framework that carries within it the necessary self-interested nonsense. safeguards for press freedom. I hope that Lord Justice Broadcast television is tightly regulated. With all Leveson will also look at qualitative aspects. Would I respect to the noble Lord, Lord Grade, who once be alone in thinking that some of the problems in employed me—although I was far too insignificant for press reporting in recent years have arisen because him to be aware of that fact—and what he said about licence has increasingly masqueraded as liberty, prurience the difference between press and broadcast regulation, has increasingly masqueraded as public interest and broadcasting, in pursuing investigations, is tightly regulated personal prejudice has increasingly masqueraded as and circumscribed. In my view, that has not prevented fact? These are big issues and difficult lines to draw it doing a far better job than the print media in but they are surely worth detailed discussion and holding the powerful to account. There are, of course, debate in the months ahead. honourable exceptions, such as Nick Davies, but where Finally, this issue is very widespread. I absolutely in the print media do we find exposures such as understand and share the revulsion about the Murdoch “Panorama” provided recently on abuse in care homes? empire and the News Corporation activities, but today’s There has been a whole series of undercover investigations Times carries an obituary for one Peter Dunne, a by the Channel 4 “Dispatches” programme. There is photographer who, no reason to think that better, tighter regulation of the “famously snapped Emperor Hirohito in civilian clothes and press will in any way hamper freedom of speech. covered the Troubles in Ulster”. 1053 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1054

[LORD HODGSON OF ASTLEY ABBOTTS] As your Lordships will know, it is only once the chair The obituary runs: and the full terms of reference are published that “Dunne was … quiet and faultlessly professional. His ability Section 35 of the Inquiries Act 2005 comes into immediate to remain clam under pressure may have been inherited. His effect. Thereafter, anyone who destroys, alters or otherwise great-grandfather fought at Waterloo … For all his understated interferes with evidence which may be needed or relied elegance and good manners, though, Dunne did not lack the on by the inquiry to determine the truth of the matters rat-like cunning his business demands. At crime scenes, he trained entrusted to its examination, commits a criminal offence. reporters to lift ‘Do Not Cross’ police tapes”, and usher him onwards with a ‘Through you go, sir’. ‘Thank you, sergeant,’ he The ambit of the inquiry that the Prime Minister would reply. He carried a clerical dog collar with him at all times, has rightly indicated in the draft and announced, is slipping it on to acquire the aura of impeccable respectability wider. It is not limited to the acts and omissions of needed to gain access to people and places where the press was not welcome”. News International but will apply more broadly and may include not only the examination of the acts of Today of all days, I ask myself whether this is the sort other newspapers but may extend to documents held of behaviour that we should be admiring. by others, including e-mails and papers held by the Government and elsewhere. Therefore, it is essential 2.41 pm for the protection of that information and evidence Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, this has that the terms of reference should be published without been a good and very important debate. The noble further delay so that the inquiry, when it is constituted, Lord, Lord Fowler, very much captured the mood of can receive the proper information. the House, and I take this opportunity to applaud him Although this is a significant debate, it may be for his courage and fortitude. My noble friend Lord neither the time nor the place to range into the minutiae Prescott and he make a formidable and winning pair. of the steps that we may take. However, I wonder Their alignment is such that anyone—indeed, everyone— whether your Lordships would allow me to scope out should have expected that their success would be assured. some of the things that we may consider. In this House, principle brings political opponents The noble Lord, Lord Glasman, in his most moving together, and long may it be so. speech, mentioned David and Goliath. YourLordships I also commend my noble friend Lady Royall for will know that David needed faith, a good aim and the her salient remarks. I think that in what she said about right stone—well shaped, perfectly weighted and balanced. decency and propriety she spoke for all of us. There The stone on this occasion was the rule of law. There was an echo around this House and many nodding are those who believe that the writ of the rule of law heads, as I see now. should not run and that if you have power, wealth and For those who thought that this debate might, influence you can avoid the law, Parliament and regulation following the debate in the other place, show this and be free from the burden of acting fairly, decently House as being behind the curve of events, the continuing and in accordance with good manners. I hope that developments at News International only this morning when considering what has happened in the past 10 days demonstrate clearly that that is not the case. those who have hitherto held that view will know that In such a press of events, it is easy and tempting to they need to think again. The law is what we in this be dazzled by the day’s headlines—easy but wrong. House use to set the proper boundaries, and I hope This whole set of events—this whole combination of that we will take that opportunity now. We can, as the circumstances—is such that we need to stand back, noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and my noble friend Lord think and consider the end that we aspire to achieve Prescott made clear, take this opportunity and put it and to work out what we now need to do. In this, we to good use. are enormously helped by the establishment of a full, What have we learnt about the legal process that we proper and thorough inquiry into the whole matter, now have? We have learnt that the test of fitness needs and helped still further by the very welcome appointment to run throughout the process and that we must make of Lord Justice Leveson to head it. it plain that if bad faith is shown and assessments are Lord Justice Leveson is a fine lawyer and will bring made on the basis of gross misrepresentations, those to the inquiry all his considerable wisdom and judgment. who make those misrepresentations will have the decisions I believe that it could not be in safer or better hands. that have been made in their favour vitiated. No one in He will, I am sure, have the ability to set the procedure this House believes that if the then Secretary of State, for the inquiry, and I am sure, too, that he will give Dr Cable, knew what we now know of the facts, he proper consideration to the comments made so well by would even for a moment have limited the European my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws. He will notice to simply plurality. The matter is worrying have an opportunity to invite both the Attorney-General because the current Enterprise Act is predicated on and the Solicitor-General to consider what proper good faith. It is why the Act provides that the Secretary orders may be made if he should so need them. I very of State has only one bite of the cherry if a European much hope that in coming to his deliberations he will intervention notice is to be served. The Secretary of have an opportunity to read this debate. State of the day is put to his or her election when The range of issues before the inquiry is enormous, drafting the notice and has to identify the basis on from the conduct of journalists at the News of the which a merger should be tested, plurality and World, with criminal investigations and prosecutions broadcasting standards being set out in Section 58. which may now follow, together with the issues around What, however, of the general public interest? What the complex subject of media regulation. However, I of good faith? What of the fitness of the person? Only have to share with your Lordships one slight anxiety. one notice can be issued and the parameters of that 1055 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1056 notice then shape—some would say irrevocably—the I very much agree that this challenge is bigger than ambit of the inquiry that can therefore be made of party politics. We must join together to do everything the proponents who support the bid—for Ofcom, the we can to restore confidence. The new mood of comity OFT, the Competition Commission and the Secretary is important and needs to be maintained. I was saddened of State. So I am sure that had Rupert Murdoch not by the few elements of party politics that touched at withdrawn his bid, it would have been trenchantly least one speech, but I am sure that on mature reflection argued that the notice which was issued by the Secretary it will be seen that our comity needs to be maintained. of State on 4 November could not be amended, and We have a chance, as others have said, to use this that only plurality—only plurality—would be the test terrible set of events as an opportunity to cure the applied as to whether this bid failed or succeeded. The flaws that the allegations and revelations have disclosed. News of the World, having been closed, the question I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to assure us that must arise is: what would be the consequence of that the gaps we have identified in the debate, which that act on plurality? have been highlighted so carefully and cogently, will be addressed quickly so that we can make it far more It has taught us a very important lesson because it difficult for those who would abuse our system with has disclosed what I suggest to your Lordships may be impunity to do so in future. a terrible flaw. These recent allegations and revelations These issues would all benefit from harder and should make us think again about the whole process. longer thought. None of us envies the job taken on by If no new notice could have been issued, where would Lord Justice Leveson, who will have to consider all we be? I believe that we would have still been able to these and similar issues. It is of real importance that rely on equity, on the common law which says that he the work be done fully, thoroughly and comprehensively. who comes to equity must come with clean hands, and We on these Benches are confident that the inquiry that you cannot take adventitious advantage of your will do that. The twists and turns of events in this own bad faith to secure for yourself a good. But that matter—no doubt there are many more to come—mean would have had to have been argued; it would not that the inquiry has an enormously difficult task. necessarily have been the process as a matter of right. However, for the future of the media in this country—I Surely we must take an urgent opportunity to fill that join all those who applauded the brilliant journalists gap and fill it quickly. We have to ensure that those we have, who will also have been distraught at seeing who are entrusted with our media are fit and proper their profession so besmirched—of politics, of the persons to do that, and we have to look at how we can police and of justice, we need to find a way forward. craft legislation for that purpose. I very much endorse We believe that the Leveson inquiry will help us to all that was said by my noble friend Lord Myners in secure that. that regard. We now have to consider how to toughen broadcasting standards. We have to look at corporate governance, not just at criminal conduct. We need a 2.58 pm proper debate on the concentration of media power Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, I, too, being in too few hands, and therefore we greatly thank my noble friend Lord Fowler for securing this welcome the inclusion of this issue in the inquiry’s debate and I commend his persistence. We should all draft terms of reference. be delighted that he resisted the temptation to jump in the Thames. It is clear that the powers of the PCC are simply The debate is self-evidently timely. Events have insufficient and that a more robust process, and a moved so quickly over the past few days, with dramatic different form of independent regulation, now needs developments even today, that perhaps we should have to be considered. What was said by the noble Baroness, installed rolling news in the Chamber. However, it is Lady O’Neill, merits more careful scrutiny, supported useful to have the opportunity to pause and take stock as she was so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, of where we are. The many learned, passionate and—sad the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, my noble friend to say—sometimes personal contributions we have Lord Soley and others. It is clear that whatever form heard today leave no one in doubt about the strength this new regulation takes, it must have teeth and be of feeling in this House on the way that it has become capable of holding those who transgress to account. It apparent that the News of the World behaved. As the must be able to bring them quickly to book. Prime Minister said on Wednesday, the whole country We need transparency. I was very taken with the has been shocked by the revelations about phone suggestion made by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, hacking. As they became more detailed, numerous that there should be a requirement that contact with and shocking, it became clear that a fully independent, journalists should be recorded. I was very impressed public inquiry would be the only way to set about by what the Prime Minister said when he called for a tackling these issues with the depth, seriousness and new form of total transparency. Perhaps the noble integrity required. This is why the Prime Minister set Baroness will say whether her right honourable friends out details of the public inquiry that will look at all the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, these issues. The inquiry must be robust, and it must and the Prime Minister, would publish a record of all command public confidence. Its aim must be to get to their meetings—personal, professional and social—with the truth and it must begin its work quickly. James and Rupert Murdoch and Rebekah Brooks, as We have to acknowledge that there are difficulties my right honourable friend the leader of the Labour around conducting a public inquiry when live criminal Party, Ed Miliband, and the shadow Secretary of investigations are under way, and for that reason the State for Culture, Media and Sport, have suggested inquiry will be divided into two parts, as noble Lords that they are willing to do. have already mentioned. Part 2 of that inquiry will be 1057 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1058

[BARONESS GARDEN OF FROGNAL] their role. Thirdly, our free, accountable press must be a full investigation into wrongdoing in the press and plural, guaranteeing healthy competition and diverse the police, including the failure of the first police debate. We have had inputs in the debate today from investigation, because I think we are all agreed that so many noble Lords who have first-hand experience that investigation failed. I can reassure noble Lords of the press, all of whom made valuable contributions that the situation is far too important for the inquiry to the matters under discussion. to be kicked into the long grass. I now turn to BSkyB. As we know, News Corporation There are other matters that can be considered has withdrawn its bid to purchase the remaining 61 per without being hampered by ongoing criminal cent of shares in BSkyB which it does not already investigations, and these matters will form part 1 of own. This is a decision taken by News Corporation the inquiry. As noble Lords will all now know, it will but, of course, it will have been aware of the strength be led by Lord Justice Leveson, one of the most senior of concern from both Parliament and the public about and well respected judges in the country. The inquiry the bid and the circumstances surrounding it. will be set up under the terms of the Inquiries Act 2005, which means that it has the power to compel I want to make the point that the Culture Secretary witnesses to appear and to give evidence under oath has at all times sought and followed advice from the and in public. Office of Fair Trading and Ofcom, the independent We want work to begin as soon as possible, but and expert regulators. He has been as transparent as there are a number of practical and logistical matters possible, publishing much more than required to do so that we are helping Lord Justice Leveson to finalise at by legislation and ensuring that he acted within the the moment. Of course, and this is a key point, how law. But of course I take note of the comments made the inquiry itself is run, who it hears from and who it by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, in seeks advice from are entirely matters for Lord Justice connection with that. Leveson. As soon as the practical matters are settled, The future for News International in the UK is a Lord Justice Leveson and his panel will look into: the matter for News International. The nature of our culture, practices and ethics of the press; their relationship press at the moment is that anyone can start or run a with the police; the extent to which the current policy newspaper and we do not impose any licensing scheme. and regulatory framework has failed; and the extent to This freedom means that, as well as our national which there was a failure to act on previous warnings newspapers, we have a great many smaller and more about media misconduct. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, eccentric publications. We welcome the partisan approach asked who guards the guardians, and that echoes that newspapers take but the key point for every exactly the phrase that Lord Justice Leveson has said publication—no matter how big or small—is that it will be at the heart of his inquiry. He and the panel must abide by the law of the land. We expect our will also make recommendations for a new, more newspapers to be truthful, not to mislead us and to effective policy and regulatory regime that supports the observe standards of decent behaviour. The inquiry integrity and freedom of the press, the plurality of the that is now under way will look at ways of ensuring media and its independence from government while that newspapers do that in future. Once again, as encouraging the highest ethical and professional standards. various noble Lords have reminded us, most journalists and people who work on newspapers are honourable Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws: In that first stage, will and professional. the inquiry also investigate the role of telecommunications companies that may have divulged information to the It has been disturbing to hear of the involvement of police and, in turn, the media without going through the police and we have heard some extraordinary the appropriate procedures? things from the Met this week. We have had inputs from my noble friend Lady Doocey, the noble Lord, Baroness Garden of Frognal: My understanding is Lord Imbert, and others who have spoken about police that Lord Justice Leveson will have the capacity to involvement. Again, I echo their words of support for make that part of the inquiry. If I am wrong on that, I the courage and professionalism of the vast majority will come back to the noble Baroness. of people who work in the police force. We understand There will also be recommendations on how future that the media and the police need to have a good concerns about press behaviour, media policy, regulation working relationship. It is, for the most part, a mutually and cross-media ownership should be dealt with by all beneficial relationship but allegations have been made the relevant authorities whether that is Parliament, during this scandal that some corrupt police officers government, the prosecuting authorities or the police. may have taken payments from newspapers in exchange for access to privileged information. These allegations The Deputy Prime Minister recently clearly set out have undermined that relationship, fractured public the three guiding principles for future reform—my trust and led to a belief that that relationship can be answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, is yes. too close. First, the freedom of the press is vital and that liberty and democracy are founded on freedom of expression. The Metropolitan Police are as determined as we We have heard from all sides of the Chamber today are that these police officers should be identified and how important your Lordships feel that freedom of referred to a fully independent investigation that will expression and the freedom of the press are. Secondly, be convened by the Independent Police Complaints our media must be held to account ensuring they act Commission. Additionally, the Home Secretary has within the bounds of the law and decent behaviour, commissioned a report from the Independent Police with politicians and police equally accountable for Complaints Commission on its experience of investigating 1059 Media: News Corporation[15 JULY 2011] Media: News Corporation 1060 corruption in the police service which will identify This has been an intense and rich debate, but if I what lessons the police can learn through this affair. have overlooked any questions or matters for reply, I apologise. I shall certainly endeavour to write to noble The Prime Minister also reported on Wednesday Lords— that Sir Paul Stephenson is looking to invite a senior public figure to advise him on interaction with the media and the ethics that should underpin his force, including Lord Myners: Perhaps I may ask one question advising on how to ensure maximum transparency before the noble Baroness reverts to her prepared text. and public confidence, and how arrangements are I think that only one question was directly addressed working. We understand that the commissioner has to the Minister in the whole debate, and that was from committed to putting in place a system of recording my noble and learned friend Lady Scotland. It was and making available to the public the contacts of about the future recording of contacts between Ministers Metropolitan Police officers with journalists. and the press. Does the Minister agree that it was most It is clear that the press will be under closer scrutiny unwise of the Prime Minister to accept hospitality and than ever before, and we heartily welcome the inquiry gifts from Ms Brooks over Christmas when one of his led by Lord Leveson and wish him well as he begins colleagues was involved in a judicial review of her his work. We would advise him, as my noble friend employer? Does she also agree that the holding of a Lord Fowler has said, to use the great expertise in this meeting in a flat about No. 10 does not render it a House, including that which we have heard today in meeting that should not be recorded because it was this debate. held on private premises? Does she further agree that, in future, the Government need to be much more open Picking up on one or two points from the debate, as about their own contacts with the press? we came into the Chamber, the breaking news was of the resignation of Rebekah Brooks. Obviously, that is Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, at this stage a matter for her and for News International but we do I would not wish to comment on the particular issues not see any reason why her resignation should interfere that the noble Lord has raised, but I can assure him with her co-operation with next week’s culture Select that government Ministers have now all been asked to Committee, the forthcoming inquiry or with ongoing log their contacts with the media. That is ongoing, so police investigations. for the future that should all be in place. If there is The noble Lord, Lord Prescott, referred to the anything more to add, I shall write to noble Lords. I Metropolitan Police’s employment of Neil Wallis who must apologise, as I am clutching a piece of paper to was arrested yesterday. The Home Secretary is concerned reply to this point. It would have been extremely about his employment and she is looking into the facts remiss of me to sit down having left the question of that case. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, and unanswered. Again, I apologise. the noble Lord, Lord Davies, referred to privacy. A I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the joint parliamentary committee is being set up to look debate. It has been in the best traditions of your at the issues that came out of the debate on super- Lordships’ House. It was considered, incisive, informed injunctions and privacy. How that committee will and passionate, and the contributions have added a work with the inquiry by Lord Leveson is a matter for great deal to the national debate. All sides of the them but it is an issue that has been taken up and House have expressed the will to work together in this action is being taken. instance with, as the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked what is to said, singleness of purpose. That message was echoed happen while we wait for the outcome of the inquiry. by her colleague, the noble and learned Baroness, The PCC is still in place, of course, and we heard from Lady Scotland. All sides would wish that to be the the noble Lord, Lord Grade, about its valuable work. case because we all have much to gain from the resolution However, we have also heard of other aspects from of the unhappy matters that have been going on other noble Lords. The press is certainly aware of the recently. much closer public scrutiny that it will now be undergoing, My final thanks add to those made to my noble so we hope that, together, they will influence moves friend Lord Fowler for bringing this debate about. We towards a more honourable press. wish him every success in his continued endeavours. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, mentioned the inquiry being conducted by Deputy Assistant Lord Prescott: On the inquiry that we have been Commissioner Sue Akers and expressed concerns about talking about today, and which everyone welcomes, the level of resources it would receive. We understand presumably many people will be called before it. Will that it is for the commissioner to decide the level of they receive legal aid in such circumstances? resources, but the Prime Minister has been personally assured by the commissioner that the investigation is Baroness Garden of Frognal: I am afraid I cannot fully resourced and that it will be thorough and robust. give the noble Lord a definitive answer, so I shall have We understand that currently around 45 officers and to write to him. staff have been assigned to it. The noble Lord, Lord Myners, asked whether the 3.14 pm Communications Act 2003 will be revisited. I can Lord Fowler: My Lords, the Minister referred to the assure him that work is already under way and that resignation of Rebekah Brooks, and then there was a new legislation will be brought forward in the future. significant pause. I thought she was going to say that 1061 Media: News Corporation[LORDS] Media: News Corporation 1062

[LORD FOWLER] Lord Imbert: I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord since then there had been another development, but Fowler, and to those many honest journalists that we apparently not. However, we had better stop before have in this country. It was unseemly of me to have there is. made that comment, but I frankly just could not resist Outstanding and powerful speeches have been made it. However, I apologise to those honest and determined in this debate, thus establishing my point that there is journalists, many of whom I admire. great experience in this House, direct experience of the media and experience of much more, although the Lord Fowler: That is very kind, and I am sure that noble Lord, Lord Prescott, and I will have to get back journalists around the country will be very grateful for to our usual hostilities on some simple party political that. If I may speak on behalf of my former profession, issue such as the future of the health service—there I think we regarded his comment as a joke and not a are quite a lot of others. bad one at that, so I do not think that any apologies I do not intend to try to sum up every speech but are necessary. simply refer to some common themes that have run The Information Commissioner went on to say that through them. One is certainly the position of the the unlawful acts are almost invariably committed by Press Complaints Commission, where I think there is parts of the private investigation industry, including virtually unanimous agreement that reform is urgently private detectives, many of whom—I regret to tell the required. An effective and independent mechanism is noble Lord this—are ex-police officers. So there may needed, a stronger commission, a commission that be some way to go. In pointing that out, I do not mean must have teeth, and a commission where journalists to get back at the police service simply because I used have a fear of the consequences if they transgress the to be a journalist. However, I think we can all agree—this code of that commission. That is not the case at the was another theme which came out of the debate—that moment and almost self-evidently has not been. Whether it is absolutely in no one’s interest that the police it should be statutory is another question which the should be in bad regard and that relations with the inquiry will have to examine carefully and which will police are of the utmost importance in this country. continue to be discussed outside this Chamber, not The fourth theme, which came out of a number of least on our Back Benches. speeches, particularly at the end of the debate and A second theme was the relations between press from the speech of the noble and learned Baroness, and politicians and Ministers. Again, I think there is Lady Scotland, was that we need to revisit the public agreement on all sides that there must be more separation. interest test and, frankly, all the legislation in this area, The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, did not like my not least the Communications Act 2003. That would phrase “clear water”, but I think he would agree that be to the benefit of everyone concerned. relations must be on a better and more proper basis Our aim in all this must be to preserve and strengthen than we have seen in the time that he and I have been the public interest. As the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in Parliament. The relations have been too close, which, said, we now have a real opportunity to get things apart from anything else, is demeaning for politicians. right. I agree with that entirely. I also agree with the Thirdly, there has been overwhelming agreement noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, that we will be judged that we must simply clean up the undoubted illegality by how we do that. We must not fail that test. which has taken place and prevent the insupportable That is the challenge, a challenge that is recognised intrusions that have been quite unjustifiably made into on all sides of the House. I very much hope that we our private lives. The noble Lord, Lord Imbert, joked can keep this bipartisan approach to finding solutions that policemen who are unsuitable for the service might together. If we can do that, it will be far more effective find a career in journalism. I have to point to the and far more in the public interest. With that, I beg to report of the Information Commissioner, which stated: move. “The cases already raised give us some idea about the companies and individuals who actually obtain the data unlawfully”. Motion agreed. The noble Lord wishes to intervene, but I have not given him the full quote yet. House adjourned at 3.21 pm. WA 219 Written Answers[15 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 220

including all programmes and advertisements. Under Written Answers contracting-out arrangements, Ofcom has transferred day-to-day responsibility for broadcast advertising Friday 15 July 2011 regulation to the Broadcast Committee of Advertising Practice and the Advertising Standards Authority. It is for those bodies to consider the appropriateness of Benefits: Tax Credit Helpline advertising. Question Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Broadcasting: Digital Switchover Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in each month since March 2010, what was (a) the volume of Asked by Lord Kilclooney queries dealt with by the tax credit helpline in HM Revenue and Customs, and (b) the cost of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the administering and staffing the tax credit helpline. digital television switchover in Northern Ireland is [HL10712] on schedule; and what is the date for the switchover. [HL10835] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): The table below details the volume of calls Baroness Rawlings: Digital television switchover in handled by the HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) Northern Ireland remains on schedule for 2012. Digital tax credits helpline in each month since March 2010. UK will announce the dates approximately 12 months HMRC cannot, however, disaggregate the cost of in advance. administering and staffing the tax credits helpline from the total administration costs or the staffing costs of running its contact centre operations. European External Action Service Tax credits Question Month Calls handled (in millions) Asked by Lord Hylton Apr 10 2.0 May 10 2.3 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Jun 10 2.6 staff the European External Action Service has; Jul 10 3.4 and where they are deployed. [HL10770] Aug 10 2.2 Sep 10 2.1 Oct 10 1.6 The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Nov 10 1.5 Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The European External Dec 10 1.1 Action Service (EEAS) does not publish regular updates on the total number of staff it employs. However, the Jan 11 1.7 EEAS budget for 2011, agreed last year, requested Feb 11 1.4 funding for 3,720 staff slots. This included 1,643 policy Mar 11 1.6 and operational officers plus a further 2,077 additional Apr 11 1.9 staff including seconded national experts, contract May 11 2.4 agents, local agents and agency staff. The EEAS has its headquarters in Brussels. According to the EEAS, there are 125 delegations and eight multilateral Broadcasting: Advertising representations around the world. Further details of Question delegations can be found on the EEAS website: http:// eeas.europa.eu/index_en.htm. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent Government Departments: Websites reports or representations they have received about Question the proposal of the Broadcast Committee of Advertising Practice (BCAP) to allow commercial Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark abortion providers to advertise on television and radio; and whether they will hold discussions with To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the (a) the BCAP, and (b) OFCOM, about the cost to public funds of the development and appropriateness of such advertising. [HL10811] maintenance of the interactive A brief history of HM Treasury on the HM Treasury website. Baroness Rawlings: The Department for Culture, [HL10714] Media and Sport has received 577 representations since 1 January 2011. The Communications Act 2003 The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord provides for Ofcom to have general responsibility for Sassoon): The costs of HM Treasury’s online operations the regulation of the content of broadcasting services, are published as part of the Central Office of Information’s WA 221 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 222

Reporting on progress reports on Government on the Telephone Calls: Prices internet. The costs of the interactive A brief history of HM Treasury, developed as part of HM Treasury’s Question digital strategy to deliver more accessible and engaging Asked by Lord Laird information to citizens and stakeholders, are included in the 2009-10 report. To ask Her Majesty’s Government which individual or body in Government monitors the pricing of telephone use to ensure telecommunications companies do not make excessive profits. [HL10764] Government: Art Collection Baroness Rawlings: No individual or body in Question Government monitors the pricing of telephone use. Ofcom, the independent national regulator, has duties Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark to monitor and report on communications markets, including telecommunications. It publishes a number To ask Her Majesty’s Government what changes of such reports annually that can be found via its Ministers in each government department have made website. These include reporting on prices, consumer to the allocation of pieces from the Government satisfaction, choice and value in those markets. Art Collection around the department since May In addition, Ofcom has powers under the significant 2010; and what has been the cost to public funds market power framework to impose charges following arising from any changes. [HL10715] a finding of market dominance. Over the past few years, it has deregulated virtually all retail markets and hence focuses on the regulation of wholesale Baroness Rawlings: I am arranging for details of the services. With the implementation of the new EU Government Art Collection’s allocation of pieces to framework, Ofcom now also has powers to impose government departments since May 2010 to be deposited maximum charges on specific telephone number ranges in the Libraries of both Houses. The total cost for for the purposes of consumer protection, as well as delivering and installing all the Minister’s works is having Competition Act powers to deal with abuse of estimated at £22,246. dominance issues. Friday 15 July 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Benefits: Tax Credit Helpline ...... 219 European External Action Service...... 220 Government: Art Collection ...... 221 Broadcasting: Advertising...... 219 Government Departments: Websites...... 220 Broadcasting: Digital Switchover...... 220 Telephone Calls: Prices ...... 222 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL10712]...... 219 [HL10764]...... 222 [HL10770]...... 220 [HL10714]...... 220 [HL10811]...... 219 [HL10715]...... 221 [HL10835]...... 220 Volume 729 Friday No. 184 15 July 2011

CONTENTS

Friday 15 July 2011 Coinage (Measurement) Bill Second Reading ...... 983 Live Music Bill [HL] Committee...... 990 Rehabilitation of Offenders (Amendment) Bill [HL] Committee...... 1001 Media: News Corporation Motion to Take Note ...... 1003 Written Answers...... WA 219