Tuesday Volume 589 2 December 2014 No. 72

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 2 December 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 135 2 DECEMBER 2014 136

confidence in the peace process, the Colombian Government House of Commons need to go further and faster in reforming their intelligence services? Tuesday 2 December 2014 Mr Swire: I do not think it is for me to give a running commentary on the intelligence services of Colombia. The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock We assist the Colombian Government in our mutual desire to stamp out the drugs trade—we co-operate PRAYERS closely with them on that. A lot of things need to be reformed in Colombia, not least the perception of impunity for the armed forces, but I say again that the big prize is, [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] first, to secure the peace—then the dividend can be cashed in.

Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): Oral Answers to Questions The unlawful killings of innocent people in Colombia continue, as they did even last week. I am delighted that the Minister is arranging a meeting with the ambassador, but may I ask him whether he would invite along the FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Justice for Colombia all-party group, because the people on it are working at the sharp end and can tell us exactly The Secretary of State was asked— what is happening in Colombia? Colombia Mr Swire: My meeting really should be for Members of both Houses who wish to accompany me, many of 1. Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): What whom are expert advocates for Justice for Colombia. recent support his Department has offered to peace talks in Colombia. [906368] Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Last week, I met Irrael Solano, indigenous governor of the Zenú The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth community, who is on a death list of the so-called Office (Mr Hugo Swire): The UK is a prominent supporter “Caribbean coast commando”. At least 60 members of of the peace process and we have regular discussions his community have been assassinated, so he takes that with the Colombian Government. Last month, the Deputy threat very seriously. Will the Government urge the Prime Minister reaffirmed the UK’s commitment when Colombian Government to do whatever they can to President Santos visited London. We are considering protect Señor Solano and other human rights defenders now how the UK can best support the implementation along the Caribbean coast? of any peace agreement, drawing further on our experiences in Northern Ireland. Mr Swire: Indeed, and I think the hon. Gentleman is Mr Sutcliffe: Following the Colombian army’s rampage a perfect candidate to come with me to raise these in a village near Turnaco, in which nine bombs were matters personally with the ambassador in January. We dropped, machine guns were fired at civilians and two are concerned about human rights defenders, as I have young men were shot dead, one of them later by the made clear, including when I was in Bogota. I hope that army as they took him away pleading for his life, with the Colombian Government will realise how keen an the army then dressing the men in FARC uniforms and interest this House takes in both the peace process and claiming they were guerrillas—that incident does not the wider case for justice for all in Colombia. get reported in the world press—is it not right that we have a bilateral ceasefire and not the unilateral ceasefire Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Minister is aware that keeps being offered by FARC? that a number of Northern Ireland Members have engaged both with the Colombian Government and the Mr Swire: The big prize remains the ceasefire with FARC negotiators in Havana. Is he also aware that we FARC, which will benefit all the people of Colombia. I are particularly concerned that the democratic opposition have always been happy to discuss the peace process in Colombia, which is not represented at the negotiations, and human rights with Members of both Houses. In should have its position affirmed because it, along with October, I met at the Foreign and Commonwealth civil society groups, has a key role to play in taking the Office Members from the Parliamentary Friends of peace process forward—a peace process for which it has Colombia, the all-party group on Latin America and fought so long? the all-party group on human rights. I am happy to do that again to discuss these things, and I am also putting Mr Swire: All have a role to play in gaining peace in together a meeting, as I promised, with the Colombian that country, which has been ruined by the civil war ambassador. If the hon. Gentleman wants to come to with FARC. When I was recently in Cuba, as the first the meeting with me, he is more than welcome. British Minister to visit in 10 years, I raised this matter with Cuba, which is playing host to the peace process. I Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Last December, say again that these negotiations with FARC are quite a I visited Colombia, with part of the talks being about long way through and what we need to see is a final reforming the Colombian intelligence services—the DAS. settlement with FARC—we have just seen the release of Does the Minister agree that for there to be public the brigadier general and the others who were taken by 137 Oral Answers2 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 138

FARC within the last month or so. That remains the big needs to be more competitive and more democratically prize and everybody should have a say in the peace that accountable and, crucially, to make it acceptable to the will ensue from that. British people, who, under a Conservative Government, will be the ones who have the last say in 2017. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Land grabs have been a predominant feature of the conflict, and Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): The British people restitution of land is a key part of the peace discussions. should have the final say on the UK’s relationship with With the Government promoting business opportunities the EU, and I applaud the Prime Minister’s approach in Colombia, will the Minister say what guidance they on an in/out referendum. The constituents who contact issue to UK companies on forced displacements and me support a trading partnership with , but not what safeguards they insist on to ensure that the UK is a political union. Will the Secretary of State emphasise not supporting economic projects using illegally acquired the vital importance of trade when discussing the future land? of the UK in the European Union? My constituents who work for major multinational companies Mr Swire: All British companies anywhere in the headquartered in Basingstoke want to know that that is world are issued with guidelines on ethical investment, at the forefront of our negotiations. and those operating in Colombia are no exception. I am delighted that in 2013 we met our £1.75 billion bilateral Mr Hammond: I could not agree more with my right trade and investment target for Colombia two years hon. Friend. Trade is at the heart of the European ahead of schedule. We have now set a revised target of Union. Completing and deepening the single market £4 billion by 2020. Growth stood at 126% from 2009-12. and extending it into the digital, energy and services Ethical investment is important, but so too are investment markets—areas on which we have scarcely scratched the and bilateral trade. We are a Government who believe surface—is the way to deliver economic growth in the that increased trade is the sea on which all ships rise European Union in the future, together with completing together. That benefits all in Colombia, even the poorest. international trade treaties such as the transatlantic trade and investment partnership that will also hugely EU: UK Membership expand our opportunities.

2. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): What steps he has taken to prepare for renegotiation of We are not part of the eurozone and neither is . the terms of the UK’s membership of the EU with his Part of a reformed European Union will have to EU counterparts; and if he will make a statement. accommodate those countries that are not part of the [906369] eurozone. When did the Secretary of State last meet his Polish counterpart to discuss what that new architecture 12. Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): What assessment might look like? he has made of the scope for reform of the EU under the new European Commission. [906379] Mr Hammond: I have had a couple of meetings with my new Polish counterpart and had more extensive The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth meetings with the former Polish Foreign Minister Sikorski. Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): I have already visited I will be going to Brussels later on this afternoon and 10 member states over the past few months to discuss will have the opportunity to meet my Polish counterpart EU reform with my counterparts and others. More and again. What the hon. Lady says is absolutely right. An more leaders across Europe agree that the EU needs to essential emerging feature of the new EU architecture is change. We have already made progress: the June European the fact of the eurozone and the non-eurozone. If those Council agreed that EU reform was necessary and that countries in the eurozone wish to pursue closer political the UK’s concerns should be addressed. integration, they will be able to do so. Those countries that are outside the eurozone must be assured of the Miss McIntosh: I wish the Foreign Secretary well in integrity of the single market, even though they will not his renegotiation. Does he share my view that we should take part in that process. be confident about achieving it? Some areas will require treaty change but others will not, particularly as there is Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): When common interest in benefits for migrant workers and in the Secretary of State is meeting all his important limiting the access shared by , Denmark and European Union people, will he tell them that there are other member states. many people in this country and in this House who value the peace and prosperity that the European Union Mr Hammond: I agree that we should be optimistic has brought to this country? Given the threatening about the scope for achieving change in the European world in which we live with President Putin and all the Union because more and more of our EU partners other things that are happening, we value that relationship agree with the agenda that we have set out. They agree and want to build on it. that the European Union must reform to survive and prosper in the future. But it goes further than that. We Mr Hammond: Of course we value the benefits that have already had success: our Prime Minister is the first being in the European Union brings us, principally one ever to have negotiated a reduction in the EU through the single market but also with security, as we budget; we have opted out of the eurozone bail-out have seen in the confrontation with Russia over Ukraine. fund; and we have secured vital protections for non- What we now need to do is address the bits of the eurozone countries in the banking union. I am confident European Union that are not working effectively, that that we will secure the reforms that the EU so urgently are holding Europe back so that it is no longer competitive 139 Oral Answers2 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 140 in the world and that represent a failure of democratic Mr Hammond: We want trade and co-operation to accountability so that we get a European Union that is flourish in the European Union and we do not subscribe acceptable to the British people. We as a Conservative to the view that ever-closer union is the answer for Government will allow the British people to have the United Kingdom. I regard it as significant progress that final say on that. in the conclusions of the June European Council this year we had for the first time an explicit recognition that Sir (Kensington) (Con): I caution not every country will pursue the same level of integration my right hon. Friend that it is rarely wise to reveal too and closer union. That is progress. much detail of one’s negotiating objectives more than six months before the negotiations can possibly begin. Incitement to Hatred (Palestinian Media) In such circumstances, one’s negotiating partners tend to give a very hostile response even in areas where they 3. Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): might ultimately be willing to compromise. What assessment he has made of the effects of incitement to hatred in the Palestinian media on Mr Hammond: My right hon. and learned Friend’s prospects for a peace settlement in that region. [906370] advice is very wise. I think the correct approach is probably to show a little ankle, but not too much. We The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth need to be clear to our European Union partners that Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): I am aware of recent we are entering negotiations with a constructive agenda. provocative material published in parts of the Palestinian We want to get a reformed European Union and a press. We deplore incitement on both sides of the Israeli- renegotiated relationship between Britain and the European Palestinian conflict and we are clear that inflammatory Union that is acceptable to the British people, but the language and images damage still further the already hurdle is high because it will be the British people, fragile prospect of peace settlement. under a Conservative Government, who make the decision in a referendum in 2017. Mrs Ellman: Official Palestinian Authority TV has praised as martyrs the terrorists who mowed down civilians on the streets of Jerusalem and the terrorists Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire who killed rabbis and others at prayer in a Jerusalem South) (Lab): In his first answer this morning, the synagogue. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that this Foreign Secretary was specific about the number of is about perpetuating hatred and violence rather than European countries he has visited as Foreign Secretary, promoting peace? so will he now be specific about at least some of the repatriations he is seeking from the European Union? Mr Hammond: Yes, and we do not hesitate to raise Even a little ankle will do. these instances of incitement with the Palestinian Authority. I spoke to President Abbas last night and raised these Mr Hammond: The right hon. Gentleman’s question issues with him while at the same time thanking him for was slightly unfortunately timed, given the question his personal robust condemnation of the synagogue asked by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member attack in West Jerusalem. We have to raise these issues for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind). Of course we do whenever they occur, but we should also praise robust not want to run around Europe at this stage in the responses by leaders of the Palestinian Authority when negotiations with a list of specific repatriations. It is far they make them. more important to establish the principle and how we will deliver it—that is, the principle of subsidiarity and Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): None of us how it will be effectively overseen within the European would condone the incitement of hatred, and there is no Union. doubt that there are people on each side who make matters worse, but does the Foreign Secretary agree that Mr Alexander: I think that the whole House, including illegal settlements, extra-judicial punishments and the Foreign Secretary’s Back Benchers, will have noted discriminatory laws also make the search for a peace the unwillingness to name even a single repatriation, settlement much harder? but one will do when he gets back to his feet. What is the Government’s estimate of the economic benefit of Mr Hammond: Yes, we are clear that settlements in the UK’s membership of the European Union? the occupied territories are illegal under international law and, perhaps even more importantly, deeply unhelpful to the prospects of a peace process. We urge the Israelis Mr Hammond: As I have said, we are clear that the on every opportunity to cease the settlement programme. UK benefits enormously from access to the single market If we are to move forward into peace talks, which I in Europe. We want to remain part of the European fervently hope we can do in the coming weeks and Union and we are entering these negotiations on the months, there will have to be a cessation of settlement basis of a clear intent to negotiate the very best deal we activity while that process is ongoing. can for Britain, addressing the concerns clearly expressed by the British people. In the end, it will be the British Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): The Israeli people who decide whether that package is good enough. Knesset will soon vote on the Jewish state Bill, which would deny national rights to Israeli’s minorities, Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): Does the Foreign remove Arabic as a national language and assert that Secretary agree that any change in our relationship with Israeli’s identity as a Jewish state comes before its the European Union should be based on trade and nature as a democracy. At a time when tensions between co-operation and not on political union? Jews and Arabs are running high, does the Foreign 141 Oral Answers2 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 142

Secretary agree that it is wrong for the Government of has said. By 274 votes to 12 we called for recognition. to press ahead with that discriminatory piece of Some 40% of Labour Friends of Israel voted for that legislation? recognition, as did 40 Conservative Members of Parliament. What will it take to get this Government to stand up, do Mr Hammond: That is a piece of legislation before the right thing, get out from under the shadow of the the Israeli Parliament, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman USA and speak for the UK Parliament? that we are always opposed to discriminatory legislation. Depriving people who are resident within a state of Mr Ellwood: Well, I ask the hon. Gentleman what is their citizenship and discriminating against them with the right thing. We can only use this card once, and we regard to language will never be conducive to the peaceful need to use it sensibly. We need to bring parties back to co-existence that I think virtually everybody seeks for the table. This Government share Parliament’s commitment Israel and Palestine. to recognising a Palestinian state but as a contribution to a negotiated two-state solution. We are in the process Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Does the Foreign of getting people back around the table. That is what Secretary agree that public opinion in the UK is moving John Kerry is committed to, and that is what should strongly against Israel because it is morally indefensible happen next. to support a state that has policies of ethnic cleansing and apartheid? Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I accept what the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk Mr Hammond: I am not sure that I agree with the (Michael Connarty) said about the Back-Bench debate, hon. Gentleman’s characterisation of the reasons, but I and I think it was unfortunate that the Government did agree that public opinion is moving against Israel in a not ask more Members to be here to express those country that has traditionally been understanding of views. I take the view myself that if we are going to get the Israeli position. We have made the point strongly to peace, the overall position is that a recognition of Israeli Ministers and politicians that they are losing the Palestine has to come at the same time as an overall argument and public opinion not only in Britain, but in peace agreement. Do the Government agree that that is Europe and, perhaps more importantly for them, in the the best way forward? . Mr Ellwood: I pay tribute not only to the debate that Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): took place in this Chamber but the debate that took What will be the effect on the Palestinian media of the place yesterday called by the hon. Member for Easington renewed Israeli policy of demolishing the houses of (Grahame M. Morris) and prompted by an e-petition offenders, thus making their families homeless and signed by over 100,000 constituents. We do pay attention punishing the entire family for the crimes of one person? to these issues. Bilateral recognition would not end the Is not that inhumane, and ought it not to be stopped? occupation. Without a negotiated settlement, the occupation and the problems that come with it would still continue. Mr Hammond: We do not approve of the collective That is why, at the stage we are at now, we must invite punishment strategy and make our views on that very people back to the table, and I hope this will happen well known on every possible occasion. I cannot give very soon. the right hon. Gentleman an analysis of the impact on Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): The Minister said that the the Palestinian media, but I can see exactly where he is Government can only play this card once. After the coming from. We will continue robustly to oppose horrific events in Gaza over the summer and the recent policies of collective punishment. violent clashes in the west bank and Jerusalem, will he tell this House how many more children have to die Palestine before the Government decide that it is the right time to play the card to give the Palestinian people an equal 4. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) seat at the negotiating table, and recognise that recognition (Lab): What assessment he has made of the of the Palestinian state is a contribution to meaningful implications for his policies of the vote by the House negotiations and not a consequence of them? on 13 October 2014 on recognising Palestine as a state alongside Israel. [906371] Mr Ellwood: I hear what the hon. Lady says, but if she had attended yesterday’s debate she would be aware The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign that the whole world is concerned about this. Ban and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): This Ki-moon, the UN Secretary-General, has said, “Is this weekend marks 67 years since the UN General Assembly what we do—reconstruct and then it gets destroyed, adopted resolution 181, which recommended a two-state reconstruct and then it gets destroyed?” We must bring solution, and it has been 21 years since the Oslo peace people to the table to make sure that there is a long-term accords, so it is no wonder that Parliaments and citizens solution to the problems and so that we do not see around the world are calling for debates and for leadership another Operation Cast Lead, Operation Pillar of Defence in implementing plans that were devised and agreed or Operation Protective Edge. That requires both sides decades ago. However, British recognition of Palestine to come together, and there is much work to do before must be not just symbolic but strategic and used in the Britain is going to be ready to recognise Palestine as wider context of securing that solution. a state.

Michael Connarty: I think I half-thank the Minister Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): Will for that answer, because really he has not done anything, the Minister consider for a minute how it would sound and nor have this Government, to recognise what Parliament to a Palestinian to hear him say that recognition of their 143 Oral Answers2 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 144 right to self-determination is a card to be played, any around the region to tell others about their life. The more than how it would sound to an Israeli to say that hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: we anticipate an recognition of Israel is a card to be played? What is he increase in rhetoric, threats and intimidation as we actually doing to talk to European partners to secure approach the election, but we are hopeful that after it recognition and not to put the day off? we might be able to have a more mature and sophisticated relationship with whoever will be the President of . Mr Ellwood: Forgive me if my comment sounded flippant—that was not my intention at all. Anybody ISIL who attended the debate yesterday, or indeed the debate that took place in this Chamber, will know of my 6. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): personal commitment to working with people on both What further support the Government plan to provide sides. I spent some time in Israel. I visited Gaza and saw to the coalition effort to defeat ISIL. [906373] the destruction with my own eyes. I should also underline the commitment that Britain is making to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign reconstruction; that was outlined when I attended the and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): Britain conference in Cairo. I say again that it is important that is one of 60 countries participating in a coalition to given where we are in the process, with John Kerry defeat ISIL and we are making a significant contribution, about to embark on a new round of talks, that is what including the air campaign and training Iraqi ground we should allow to take place at this very moment. forces. The training of those local forces is critical in order for them to take and hold the ground, maintain Falkland Islands security and begin the process of stabilisation and governance. 5. Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): What steps the Government are taking to support Falkland Islanders Rehman Chishti: I thank the Minister for that answer. experiencing harassment by the Argentine Government. He will know that ISIL needs to be defeated in Iraq and [906372] Syria. Two years ago, I raised with the then Foreign Secretary the creation of safe havens on the border of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth and Syria. They could now be used by the Free Office (Mr Hugo Swire): As I said only yesterday to Syrian Army as a launching pad to defeat ISIL in Iraq representatives of the Falklands Islands Government and Syria as well as the brutal Assad regime. I understand who were in London for the Overseas Territories Joint that some Arab countries have raised the issue with the Ministerial Council, this Government remain steadfastly United Kingdom. Will we support them? committed to the defence and security of the Falklands. We will continue to speak up for the islanders’ right to Mr Ellwood: I understand what my hon. Friend is self-determination and to provide them with support as saying. We have had discussions with our Turkish they seek to develop and internationalise their economy. counterparts and others, and General John Allen is also looking at the issue. It needs to be considered in the Gareth Johnson: I thank my right hon. Friend for his wider context of the campaign and it is on the table at answer, particularly his reference to self-determination the moment, but that is as far as it goes. for the Falkland Islanders. Does he agree that anything other than self-determination would be nothing other 18. [906385] John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) than an affront to the 255 British servicemen who gave (Lab/Co-op): Do the Government recognise that the their lives during the Falklands conflict? failure of reconstruction after the last Iraq war shows that any military effort will be insufficient unless the Mr Swire: Yes, I entirely agree. As a result of that UK does far more to engage with its partners and allies, conflict, we are still mine-clearing on the islands. I to enable good governance in currently ungoverned congratulate BACTEC, the company in my hon. Friend’s spaces in Iraq and Syria to prevail? [906385] constituency that has just secured the contract to carry out the fourth phase of de-mining in the Falklands. The Mr Ellwood: The hon. Gentleman raises a critical people of the Falkland Islands have spoken. I was there point. The international community, especially Iraq’s in February. There was a 92% turnout, and 99.8% voted neighbours and Iraq itself, must play a crucial role in yes. People in the region should respect their human providing assistance and technical support and governance rights and their rights to self-determination. and stabilisation once the fighting has happened. We are seeing successes: Iraqi forces have liberated the key Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister town of Baiji, and the National Guard programme is will know that there is going to be an election in formalising the militia structure, to improve security as Argentina soon and that rhetoric against the Falkland well as command and control. They are stopping ISIL Islands usually increases considerably in such periods. in its tracks and pushing it back, out of Iraq. This is a What representations are the Government making to turning point. other countries in Latin America and the Caribbean, including some that are in receipt of British development Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I pay tribute assistance, to try to neutralise the rhetoric that will to our superb efforts in Iraq, but I absolutely agree with come out of Argentina? the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) that we are not going to defeat ISIL—the question is Mr Swire: We do not seek to neutralise anything; we about defeating ISIL, not containing it—by doing what just seek to tell it as it is and we encourage the Falkland we are doing at the moment. We will defeat ISIL only if islanders, who are by far the best advocates, to travel we engage politically with the Government in Baghdad 145 Oral Answers2 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 146 and find ways of engaging with the friendly Sunni Illegal Israeli settlements are causing friction, to say the forces in Iraq. What discussions are the Government least, and they are a roadblock in the peace process. having with Baghdad about how they can extend their What is the Secretary of State doing with his EU political influence? counterparts to challenge this and to make sure that there are no roadblocks? Mr Ellwood: My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is the inclusivity of the al-Abadi Government, Mr Hammond: As I said earlier and have said on in contrast with the Malaki Government, that is making previous occasions in the House, the settlements are sure that Sunnis are included in Iraq and Baghdad. It is illegal. We condemn them, and every time a new one is therefore important that they, not us, take the space, proposed, we make that view known to the Israeli which is why the boots on the ground are Iraqi boots, Government. But I have gone further than that, and I not ours, so that they can move towards more inclusive repeat today that we have to be clear that we will not governance and reconstruction capability. allow the fact of illegal settlements to define the shape of an eventual settlement. We cannot allow one of the Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): Many parties to this conflict to build themselves into a position Yazidi Kurdish women have been abducted by the so-called to dictate the eventual peace. Settlements can be built Islamic State. They have been held as slaves and raped. and settlements can be removed, but every settlement What are the Government doing to ensure that there is that is built is illegal and it cannot be allowed to stand more publicity about the issue and that we do more to immovably in the way of the peace process. stop these crimes against humanity?

Mr Ellwood: The hon. Lady raises an extremely important David Mowat: The Secretary of State has talked point that underlines exactly why ISIL and its ideology about the preference for a successful peace process, but must be removed from Iraq and, indeed, Syria, and actions speak louder than words. The 1,000 acre land prevented from spreading elsewhere. We are working grab around Bethlehem in September surely indicates very closely with our Kurdish counterparts on this very that Israel does not really have the serious intention of issue. I shall visit the region soon and raise the matter. allowing a two-state solution. Given that, should we not be thinking about how we are going to recognise Palestine? Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): One crucial part of the effort to defeat ISIL is surely to help Mr Hammond: This is not an excuse, but a great deal those made even more vulnerable by its advance. Given of domestic politics is involved in this issue. The 1,000 acres that the World Food Programme has had to suspend that my hon. Friend mentioned have not, as I understand assistance to almost 2 million Syrians, what action are it, been developed in any way; it was simply a designation. Ministers taking to help to ensure that the World Food It is unacceptable, but it is a political statement, and we Programme can resume its efforts to ease the plight of have to make sure that it does not stand in the way of an Syrian refugees? eventual two-state solution.

Mr Ellwood: The hon. Gentleman makes an important Several hon. Members rose— point. While we discuss military matters and indeed governance, an entire generation is suffering in Syria Mr Speaker: Order. I am afraid that colleagues will itself. Britain is one of the largest donors to Syria. We have to see what opportunities are presented during have committed over £700 million in aid to provide topical questions. Progress today has been incredibly support on the very issues he talked about, and we have slow, and we have a lot of questions to get through. also provided £23 million-worth of aid to Iraq. If I may, I shall look into the issues concerning the World Food Programme and get back to him. EU Food Imports Middle East 8. Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): What recent assessment he has made of the effects of Russia’s 7. Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): What steps ban on EU food imports. [906375] his Department is taking to help bring Israeli and Palestinian leaders back to peace talks. [906374] The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): We 9. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): What estimate that about £4.5 billion of EU food exports recent assessment he has made of the likelihood of a stand to be affected, of which the UK share amounts to two-state solution emerging in the middle east. [906376] £39 million. At the same time, import restrictions have led to price increases to Russian shoppers of about The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth 15%. Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): The UK is fully supporting US-led efforts, working with the Egyptians, to bring Ms Ritchie: Russia’s ban on EU food imports has Israeli and Palestinian leaders back to negotiations contributed to the creation of an imbalance between aimed at achieving a lasting peace. We are also working market demand and supply in the dairy industry, with European partners, especially and Germany, particularly in Northern Ireland, where we rely greatly to support that US-led process. on exports. In view of that, will the Minister have immediate discussions with his ministerial colleagues in Jim McGovern: I thank the Minister for his answer. the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs The point that I want to make was possibly covered with a view to pursuing other global markets for the earlier, but it is so serious that it is worthy of repetition. dairy industry? 147 Oral Answers2 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 148

Mr Lidington: I completely understand the hon. Lady’s Malaysia point about producers in Northern Ireland. As she knows, some EU compensation arrangements are available, 10. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) but she has put her finger on the really important point. (Lab/Co-op): When he next plans to visit Malaysia. My colleagues in DEFRA and UK Trade & Investment [906377] want to work with producers in Northern Ireland and elsewhere both to access the EU funds available for The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth getting into alternative markets and to promote the Office (Mr Hugo Swire): I plan to visit Malaysia early excellent produce from Northern Ireland in third markets next year. My visit will coincide with the start of Malaysia’s worldwide. chairmanship of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations and its elevation to a non-permanent seat at the Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): Given UN Security Council. My discussions will focus on that Russia’s food import problems are due to the issues of mutual interest, including trade, security, the financial sanctions imposed on it by the EU because of Commonwealth and human rights. My right hon. Friend Russia’s illegal behaviour in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, the Foreign Secretary looks forward to welcoming and given that yesterday the rouble had its worst day Malaysia’s Foreign Minister to London next week. since the 1990s, does the Minister agree that financial sanctions will bring Russia to the negotiating table, and Tom Greatrex: I am grateful to the Minister for his will he continue with them? reply. He will be aware that last week, the Malaysian Government went back on their pledge to repeal the sedition law, and are instead entrenching and extending Mr Lidington: Russia has certainly suffered heavily as its characteristics. He will also be aware that there is a result of the imposition of sanctions in the way that growing international concern that the law is being used my right hon. Friend describes. We have seen a flight of to imprison political opponents and religious minorities, capital out of Russia, as well as the precipitate fall in the particularly the Christian community. Will he and the value of the rouble. I hope that the Russian leadership Foreign Secretary undertake to ensure that those issues will accept that it is in the interests of the Russian are raised with the Malaysian Government in their people to implement the Minsk agreement with Ukraine engagements over the next few weeks? in full and, in particular, to return to Ukraine control of her sovereign borders. Mr Swire: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary reminds me that such issues always are raised. He will Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): certainly raise them. We are aware of the recent comments Further to the question from the right hon. Member for by Prime Minister Najib regarding the Malaysian sedition Croydon South (Sir Richard Ottaway), world leaders laws. We will look at his comments about the proposed rightly made their views known about the Russian legislation closely. We are clear that the Malaysian actions in Ukraine at the recent G20 summit in . Government should conform to international standards Will the Minister say more about the effect that he and norms. thinks the sanctions and the recent fall in the oil price Hezbollah are having on Russia and, in particular, whether he believes that the combined effect is producing a change 11. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What in Russian attitudes towards fostering nationalism in estimate he has made of the number of rockets in Ukraine and possibly in other countries with Russian- Hezbollah’s arsenal in southern which could speaking minorities? be deployed against Israel; and what diplomatic efforts his Department is making to seek a reduction in that Mr Lidington: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s number. [906378] implicit point that we are concerned not just about Ukraine, but about the doctrine of a right to intervene The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign in support of Russian speakers anywhere in the world. and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): We The answer to his question is that, sadly, we are not yet are aware of continued reports of Hezbollah’s arsenal seeing a return to serious talks and the implementation of weapons in southern Lebanon. Those weapons pose of the Minsk peace agreement by the Russian leadership, a threat to regional security and are in violation of UN but the impact of sanctions on the Russian economy, Security Council resolutions. coupled with the decline in oil prices, is catastrophic. It is in the interests of the Russian people that we see a Mr Hollobone: Hezbollah’s extensive arsenal contravenes change. UN Security Council resolutions 1559 and 1701, which call on it to disarm, yet the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon has not stopped the re-arming of Hezbollah Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con): and rarely inspects Hezbollah-controlled villages for What assessment has the Minister made of the impact illicit activity. Given that every Israeli city is now within on the people of Russia and on Russian public opinion range of the rockets, will the Minister use his good of the effect of the sanctions and the declining oil price? offices in the UN to ensure that the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon has the resources it needs to Mr Lidington: The people of Russia—ordinary police southern Lebanon effectively? families—are bearing the brunt of the cost of the Kremlin’s adventurism in Ukraine through much higher Mr Ellwood: My hon. Friend makes an important inflation, a lack of access to high-quality, good-value point. That matter was raised with me during my visit imported produce, and a decline, every week, in the to Israel. We are committed to supporting peace and value of the rouble in their pockets. stability in Lebanon. Since 2012, the UK has been 149 Oral Answers2 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 150 delivering a $31-million programme to train and equip to get access to a US market of 300 million customers, the land border regiments to provide stability. More and the entire House should be united in supporting work needs to be done with the UN and we must ensure that. that Hezbollah agrees to the UN resolutions. EU (Freedom of Movement) Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Lebanon’s position in the middle east is being destabilised 15. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): What recent by the fact that a quarter of the population is made up discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on of Syrian refugees. The United Nations has called for freedom of movement within the EU. [906382] countries throughout the world to resettle at least 130,000 of those refugees. Why have only 90 been allowed into the The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth United Kingdom? Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): I have discussed EU migration extensively with my counterparts as part of a series of visits to EU capitals to discuss EU reform and Mr Ellwood: As has been made clear before, we feel renegotiation. We are not alone in seeing EU migration that it is best that refugees are kept closer to the region as a qualified right. We secured reference in the June so that they can return. The whole House should pay European Council conclusions to the need to protect tribute to Lebanon for its work in taking 1.2 million EU migration from misuse, and last week the Prime refugees, which, as the hon. Gentleman says, is almost a Minister set out his proposals for doing just that. quarter of its population. The UK Government have provided more than £273 million to help with stability Nic Dakin: Will the Secretary of State confirm that in the area and to support refugees there. we should use the Dano judgment, which confirmed that member states have significant leeway, to ensure Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership that people who come to the UK come to work, not to claim? Will he also confirm that we can do that without 13. Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) threatening our position as a member of the EU? (Con): What recent progress the Government have made on the transatlantic trade and investment Mr Hammond: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely partnership. [906380] right. The Dano judgment has once again shown that sometimes we in this country assume that the body of EU regulation requires us to do things that it actually The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): The does not. We sometimes find, as we did in that case, that seventh round of negotiations concluded in October, there is more flexibility to work within the existing and our ambition remains to agree a deal next year that treaty powers than is assumed. could benefit the average British family by £400 a year. Topical Questions Stephen Metcalfe: I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. Will he confirm that as part of his negotiations, T1. [906393] Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): he will reiterate that signing TTIP is not the start of the If he will make a statement on his departmental privatisation of the NHS? responsibilities.

Mr Lidington: I can absolutely confirm that to my The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth hon. Friend. In early October, both the United States Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): Since the last Foreign and EU chief negotiators made it clear in public statements and Commonwealth Office questions, I and my team that there would be no provisions in the trade agreement have been focused on the major foreign policy challenges that would limit the ability of Governments to regulate facing the UK—ISIL in Iraq and Syria, Russian aggression health provision or other public services. in Ukraine, the middle east peace process, Libya and the Ebola outbreak. In addition, I have been continuing my programme of visits to EU capitals, exploring the Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): At a meeting in my common ground that exists on the need for EU reform, constituency last Friday, those very concerns about the explaining Britain’s requirements for its future relationship privatisation of the health service were raised, as were with Europe and listening to the views of parliamentarians, concerns about the reduction in minimum standards academics, journalists, commentators, Ministers and such as the minimum wage and conditions at work, and Government officials across the continent. about the ability of a UK Government to put conditions on suppliers to the UK. Can the Minister give my Pauline Latham: I thank my right hon. Friend for his constituents some reassurances on those points? answer. What assessment has he made of the co-ordination across Whitehall Departments in delivering the Mr Lidington: I would like to think that the right Government’s response to Ebola, both in Sierra Leone hon. Gentleman made it clear that he was not going to and here in the UK? add to the scaremongering rumours that he has just described, especially given that the Government in whom Mr Hammond: Over the summer I led the Government’s he served were an ardent champion of this trade deal cross-departmental response, involving a huge amount with the United States. It is clear that the TTIP deal will of resource from the Department for International not limit the ability of Governments to legislate for, or Development, the mobilisation of our diplomatic networks to regulate, public services. It will provide businesses by the Foreign Office, and a massive infusion of manpower large and small in this country with enormous opportunities and capability by the Ministry of Defence. The people 151 Oral Answers2 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 152 of Britain can be immensely proud of the way that the heart, which my constituents welcome ahead of the UK has stepped up to the plate and, using a combination referendum, but does the Minister envisage concurrent of military and civilian resources, delivered real effect discussions on bilateral free trade agreements with on the ground in Sierra Leone. high-growth economies such as , which will be needed in case the British people choose to leave the Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire EU, or will any such discussions come after the South) (Lab): The Foreign Secretary has just paid generous referendum vote? tribute to the Department for International Development, and I echo those sentiments. However, he is reported to The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): As my have recently called the Government’s own commitment hon. Friend knows, the treaty provisions are that the to enshrine in law a pledge to spend 0.7% of UK GDP EU has exclusive competence over international trade on international aid as “bizarre” when he was thousands negotiations, which means that we benefit from the of miles away from Westminster—[Interruption.] Some collective leverage of a market of about 500 million Members seem to agree with that sentiment. Ahead of people in prising open access to third markets. As Friday’s discussions of this issue in the House, is he regards India, the Prime Minister raised with the Indian prepared to repeat that judgment at the Dispatch Box Prime Minister at the need to reopen the today or has he had his mind changed? EU-India talks on free trade which had been paused because of the Indian election. We hope very much that Mr Hammond: Unlike the Government in whom the Mr Modi’s Government will want to take that forward right hon. Gentleman served, we have delivered the now. 0.7% target. We made a political commitment to do it and we have delivered on that political commitment. T5. [906397] Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) Talk about the need to legislate is yesterday’s discussion. (Lab): Is the Minister really saying that Britain has We are doing it—something he never did. fulfilled its commitment by taking 90 of the most vulnerable Syrian refugees, when 130,000 need to be T2. [906394] Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) resettled around the world? (Con): Stability in north —in Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, where there has been remarkable progress Mr Philip Hammond: The UK Government have by the Tunisian people—has been helped immeasurably taken the view that because we expect Syria to be rebuilt by the United Kingdom’s Arab Partnership programme. with a new and democratic future, we want to support Will my hon. Friend confirm that that programme will these people as close to their home as possible. Britain is continue and that, just because there is some success in proud to be the second largest international donor of those areas, we will not take our eye off the ball or off humanitarian aid to Syria, supporting those communities the need to do more in north Africa? so that they will eventually be able to return and rebuild their country. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): My right hon. Friend can take part of the credit for some of T7. [906400] Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) the success stories that we have seen in Tunisia, Algeria (Con): The Foreign Secretary knows that my and Morocco. He is right that we should not forget constituent, Ollie Gobat, was brutally murdered in these countries. Bilateral trade continues to flourish and St Lucia in an apparent assassination. I am grateful the Arab Partnership scheme is very important. I visited that officials are discussing assurances on the death Algeria last week and we look forward to the Prime penalty to allow UK police to support the investigation, Minister’s visit when he comes here next week. at St Lucia’s request, but we are seven months on from Ollie’s murder. The death penalty has not been applied T4. [906396] Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland in 19 years. Will the Minister pick up the phone to South) (Lab): In Uganda there appears to be renewed the St Lucian Prime Minister and help to resolve the attempts to target and persecute the lesbian, gay, outstanding issues so that we can get justice for Ollie bisexual and transgender community. If the Ugandan and his family? Government proceed with new legislation in this area, what will be the impact on bilateral relations with James Duddridge: This is indeed a tragic and brutal the UK? murder, and my heart goes out to the Gobat family. I wrote to the St Lucian Prime Minister on 14 October to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign seek assurances that any person convicted of this crime and Commonwealth Affairs (James Duddridge): The FCO’s will not receive the death penalty, and following my work to combat violence and discrimination on the hon. Friend’s excellent work, yesterday I wrote to the basis of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights is St Lucian high commissioner to press him on this issue. an important part of our international work in Uganda I will take up the suggestion to phone the St Lucian and elsewhere. I have made representations to the Ugandan Prime Minister if an answer is not forthcoming, and I Government and will continue to do so, and I will will speak to my hon. Friend as soon as I have done so. continue to work with NGOs and parliamentarians interested in this issue. It is a high priority for the T6. [906399] John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) British Government and for me. (Lab/Co-op): The Secretary of State is a former Transport Secretary, so will he admit to motorists in T3. [906395] Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): my constituency and other rural areas that the Government’s The Foreign Secretary has made it clear that any bid for a rural fuel discount has completely failed renegotiation with the EU will have trade at its because he has no friends in Europe? 153 Oral Answers2 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 154

Mr Philip Hammond: The UK has many friends in across the border and taking hostages. More funds are Europe, and one of the most striking things of the past being provided for that successful programme, and I four and a half months has been that everywhere I have will be visiting Lebanon soon. gone in Europe, it has been emphasised to me—again in last week—how central Britain’s role is to the Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): For nearly European Union. Indeed, my Italian counterpart said half a century, on and off, I have heard Ministers say clearly that he cannot imagine a European Union without that they are committed on behalf of the British Britain at its heart. Government to justice for Palestinians, yet the situation has deteriorated for Palestinians over that time—it is T9. [906402] Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) has certainly not improved in any way. Would recognising (Con): I previously raised the case of Bibi with a Palestinian state not show a genuine commitment on the Prime Minister, and authored a letter signed by behalf of the United Kingdom that we want justice for 57 Members of Parliament from across the House Palestinians, as well as ensuring that the state of Israel calling for justice in this case. I understand that the is secure? Prime Minister raised the case with Prime Minister Sharif, but what was his response? Is Prime Minister Mr Philip Hammond: The hon. Gentleman’s timeline Sharif prepared to reform these laws, because I have merely serves to underscore how complex, difficult and spoken to the senior leadership of the main opposition intractable the problem is. Our commitment to a two-state in Pakistan, the PPP, and it is prepared to work with solution is loudly expressed at every opportunity—no him to do that? one can be in any doubt about it—but, as the Under- Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Mr Ellwood: Asia Bibi is a Christian woman who was Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth sentenced to death for blasphemy in 2010. That sentence East (Mr Ellwood) has made clear, recognition is a tool has obviously provoked international condemnation, to be used in trying to bring about the peace settlement and was the first death sentence handed to a woman all hon. Members ardently desire. under Pakistan’s new blasphemy laws. We are deeply concerned that the Pakistan court has upheld the imposition Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): May I just say of the death penalty, and we hope the verdict will be what a great school Aston academy is? Of course, it was overturned on appeal. The Prime Minister will be in Aston comprehensive when I went there, but I will not the Chamber tomorrow, and I understand that he and ask about that. the Foreign Secretary will try to raise this matter again. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that millions of people around the country will have taken the Prime T8. [906401] Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): Aston academy secondary school in my constituency Minister’s speech last week on immigration as setting and Makunduchi school on the island of Zanzibar in out that the revision of the rules on benefit claimants Tanzania have had a link for more than 20 years, with would be a red line in the renegotiation? regular visits of staff and pupils from both schools to one another, lifting the horizons of young people in Mr Hammond: I am happy to agree with my hon. both countries. How does the Minister’s Department Friend both on Aston academy and on the Prime support such twinning arrangements? Minister’s speech last Friday. The right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) James Duddridge: I thank the right hon. Gentleman called for clarity on our agenda with the European for that question, not least because I remember visiting Union. He got clarity from the Prime Minister on Aston school in 2001 when I was a parliamentary Friday, but I have not heard him acknowledge that. candidate in Rother Valley. More recently, as Minister for Africa I have visited a number of schools, and Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) twinning arrangements such as that in Zanzibar are a (SNP): In this Question Time, Members have mentioned fantastic way to support schools and build understanding official Palestinian media and TV, and the Palestinian of what the British Government are doing by supporting Authority. Effectively, they are talking about the apparatus the DFID budget and the foreign affairs team. I recommend of a Palestinian state. Surely calls for peace should be that more colleagues encourage such schemes in their heard with equal respect for both Israel and Palestine. constituencies, just like the hon. Member for Wrexham Is it not time the UK Government followed this House (Ian Lucas), who supports an excellent scheme in Lesotho. of Commons and gave recognition to the Palestinian state, which would be the first stage of the two-state Sir Hugh Robertson (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con): solution? In his answer to question 11, the Minister mentioned the welcome assistance given by this country to the Mr Hammond: This is a bit like groundhog day. The Lebanese border regiment. Will he look again at that, Government will recognise a Palestinian state at a time particularly in Lebanon and Jordan, to see what further of our choosing. We will choose that time on the basis assistance we could give armed forces in those countries that it is designed to deliver the maximum possible to prevent contagion from Syria and Iraq? impetus to the peace process.

Mr Ellwood: I pay tribute to the work done by my Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): Will Her right hon. Friend when he covered this portfolio. He Majesty’s Government be supporting the resumption of will be aware from his visit to the region of the start of a World Bank loans to Argentina? If so, would it not be programme to build watchtowers, and the MOD is very bizarre for the UK to underwrite loans to Argentina, much involved in that to prevent ISIL from running which is awash with its own cash, and which is in the 155 Oral Answers2 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 156 process of acquiring 24 advanced combat aircraft for Mr Swire: I will be brief because I have already its defence portfolio, which could present a risk to the addressed this issue. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Falkland Islands? Secretary is meeting the Malaysian Foreign Minister next week, I believe. He will raise that issue, as we The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth always do. We are studying the implications of the Office (Mr Hugo Swire): I am not sure that my hon. Malaysian Prime Minister’s comments and will respond Friend has uttered a single word with which I would in due course. disagree. Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): Will the UK Government be represented at the forthcoming Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): Vienna conference on the humanitarian impact of nuclear Further to the earlier answer on Colombia, the Minister weapons? will be aware that paramilitaries continue to target members of the peace movement. In the past three Mr Philip Hammond: We have decided to accept years, 60 members of the Patriotic March have been Austria’s invitation to attend the Vienna conference on assassinated. Will he take steps to put pressure on the the humanitarian impact of nuclear weapons on 8 and Colombian Government to protect peace activists in 9 December. We will be represented by Mrs Susan le Colombia? Jeune, the UK ambassador to Austria and permanent representative to the International Atomic Energy Agency. Mr Swire: Yes, we will do that, and already do so. When I was in Bogota, I met a lot of peace defenders Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): May I and human rights activists, and a lot of Government raise again the case of my constituent Ghoncheh Ghavami, officials. We continue to be extremely concerned about who is still facing prison in Iran and is forbidden from the situation, but I repeat what I have said: we are very leaving that country? I am grateful to the Under-Secretary keen to help to move forward the FARC peace negotiations, of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the which will bring peace to the whole country. However, hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) for serious institutional issues in the country will then need meeting Ghoncheh’s family with me, but I found the to be addressed. The UK Government will provide Foreign Secretary’s view, that there is little he can do every assistance we can in that respect. because Iran does not recognise dual citizenship, somewhat unhelpful. Ghoncheh is a British citizen and is entitled Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Marlborough house is to the support of the Foreign Office. May I ask the one of the great meeting places of the Commonwealth Foreign Secretary again what he is doing to ensure that and yet, reportedly, the Labour party says that it wants she can come back to her home in Shepherds Bush? to sell it. What is the Government’s view? Mr Hammond: I was not intending to be unhelpful; I was simply pointing out one of the realities we have to Mr Swire: I read that report with some incredulity. deal with. She is a British citizen and we make The Government are trying to put the “C” back into representations on her behalf. One of the by-products FCO, but it seems that the Labour Opposition are of the nuclear talks with Iran is that we have far more trying to put Marlborough house back on the market. contact with Iranian counterparts than we might otherwise That is the difference between us. We can accuse the have done. I take every opportunity to raise this with Labour Government of many things, but we can never Minister Zarif, my opposite number, and will do so accuse them of being helpful to, supportive of or keen again when I see him at the Afghanistan conference in on the Commonwealth. London this week. Iran’s position is that it does not recognise her British citizenship and will therefore not Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): With reference to engage with us on this issue. the forthcoming ministerial visit to Malaysia, will the Minister consider its sedition laws? They are constantly Several hon. Members rose— being used to gag the opposition, including important opposition leaders such as Anwar Ibrahim. We left Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry, but we must now those laws behind. Why do we not get rid of them? move on. 157 2 DECEMBER 2014 Points of Order 158

Points of Order Now, to judge by the rather sceptical expression on the right hon. Gentleman’s face, I fear I may have some way to go before persuading him of the merit of our approach. 12.35 pm But what I am seeking to do—[Interruption.] Somebody Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): On chunters, slightly irreverently, from a sedentary position, a point of order, Mr Speaker. Since written answers “analogue”. In many respects, the right hon. Gentleman began to be answered online, Hansard no longer publishes is modernity itself, not least in his original approach to written questions and answers. I find this a deprivation sartorial elegance, but on these matters he does tend to because it has been long my practice to study the be rather trad. I am trying, in a utilitarian spirit, on a written questions and answers published in Hansard.I Benthamite basis, to give the greatest satisfaction to the find it a deprivation for our constituents who no longer greatest number and I hope that we can do that. However, have the opportunity of seeing the written questions if the right hon. Gentleman is dissatisfied, I have a and answers. It means that Hansard is no longer a feeling that he will be beating a path to my door. complete record of the proceedings of this House. I am therefore asking you, Mr Speaker, to give instructions Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): On that in future written questions and answers should be a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder whether you can published in Hansard. give me some guidance. A young girl from my constituency has been tragically murdered in Cologne. There is no Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the right hon. police investigation, although there is every evidence Gentleman for his point of order. My response is as that her drink was spiked—she was poisoned. There has follows. First, my distinct recollection is that the House been no police investigation and no help for the family. has already decided on this matter. There is a reassuring There is not another Foreign Office Question Time for nod of the head from the hon. Member for Liverpool, another month. Can you advise me on how I can raise West Derby (Stephen Twigg) sitting on the Opposition this issue in the House? Front Bench, which suggests that my recollection is correct. I am not sure, therefore, that that can easily be Mr Speaker: The answer is twofold. First, the hon. revisited, and certainly not impromptu by me from the Gentleman can write to a Foreign Office Minister, and Chair. he can be as confident of as speedy a reply these days, However, my second point to the right hon. Gentleman not least on the grounds of his seniority and persistence, is that if he wishes to obtain a hard copy of the as can his right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, questions and answers, in accordance with his usual Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman). Secondly, as the hon. practice, he can obtain that from the Vote Office. That Gentleman knows, he has effectively raised his point, facility, although of course it could be extended to the through the ruse of the use and—some would say—the right hon. Gentleman alone on grounds of his seniority rather gentle abuse of the point of order procedure. and distinction, is in fact also an opportunity afforded Foreign Office Ministers will have heard his utterance, to other right hon. and hon. Members. and let it never be said that he and the right hon. I accept that these are matters of interpretation and Member for Manchester, Gorton are not heard in this opinion, but my last point would be that as far as the House; I think we will all agree they are heard with public is concerned I think the material is readily accessible appropriate regularity. and, arguably, as a result of this approach more accessible. 159 2 DECEMBER 2014 Overseas Voters (15 Year Rule) 160

Overseas Voters (15 Year Rule) Despite the low registration figures, however, we should not simply discount such a large number of British Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order citizens and take away their right to vote. If that many No. 23) people living in this country were disfranchised, there would be an outcry. I strongly believe that one reason registration numbers are so long is the deterrent effect 12.40 pm of the 15-year rule. I have had people contacting me Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I beg from all around the world, saying “What is the point in to move, registering to vote now, when I will lose my vote after That leave be given to bring in a Bill to allow British citizens 15 years?” It is not that they do not want to vote, but resident overseas for more than 15 years to vote in UK Parliamentary that they do not want to have to register and then lose elections and referendums; and for connected purposes. that right. It is estimated that there are 5.5 million UK citizens Contrary to the assertion by some that people living living abroad, of whom possibly 1 million are under 18 abroad do not care about participating in UK elections, and a further 1 million are debarred by the 15-year rule people actually feel very passionately about it. I have and who maintain strong cultural, emotional, financial had people contacting me from across the world, thanking and historical links with this country. However, under me for raising this issue today. They want to vote; they current laws, British citizens who live abroad can only want to engage and take part, but they are prevented vote in UK parliamentary elections for a maximum of from doing so by this 15-year rule. I strongly believe 15 years from the date they last lived in the UK. I that the rule acts as a real disincentive for people to believe this to be incredibly unfair and unjustified, given register and vote. that many people who have lived abroad for more than Throughout history, it has been the Conservative 15 years decided to move to a different country only party that has championed the rights of overseas voters. after having paid into this country’s system for the Only under a Conservative Government have the rights whole of their working lives, and still have strong of overseas voters been extended. Labour and Liberal connections to the UK. Why should they, after all that, Democrats have consistently tried to limit the voting be disfranchised by their country of origin? rights of our citizens around the world. Indeed, in 1998, The 15-year limit we impose on voters is one of the when there was a Home Affairs Select Committee inquiry strictest in the world. Indeed, from my research, the into the issue, Labour and Liberal Democrat members only countries with stricter rules on overseas voting are urged that the length of time should be reduced—despite Ireland, and , where citizens who have left the Home Office saying that the vast amount of their country are not allowed to vote at all. However, correspondence received on the subject was in favour of countries as diverse as the US, France, , South an extension of the limits. Africa, , the and Italy all have The extent to which the Opposition parties have no limit on the ability of their citizens to vote from denied the right of overseas voters was clearly demonstrated abroad. We must surely question why, as a country with here earlier in the year when I and a number of my hon. a proud history of democracy and a wide franchise, we Friends tabled amendments to the Electoral Registration set some of the strictest rules in the world against our and Administration Act 2013 to abolish the 15-year own citizens. rule. However, these efforts were thwarted by a combination Much of the opposition to abolishing the 15-year of Labour and Liberal Democrat Members, and the rule is centred around the fact that relatively few of the same thing happened in the other place when the noble 3.5 million citizens living overseas and currently eligible Lord Lexden tabled the same amendments. to register to vote actually do so. Only about 32,000 overseas It is absolutely right that citizens living abroad should citizens are registered, which is disappointingly few. I be able to participate in our democratic process. After have been pressing the Electoral Commission for some all, more often than not, they are the people who have time dramatically to step up its efforts to increase the worked hard through their working lives and contributed number of eligible overseas voters, and I am pleased it to the system through taxes and national insurance, and has now accepted a target of 100,000 voters to be they usually keep their UK bank accounts. They should registered by May 2015—before the general election. therefore have the right to maintain a say in how that There are some possible reasons why overseas citizens money is spent. Indeed, decisions of the UK Government do not register to vote. It might be that many are simply continue to have effects on overseas citizens once they not aware of it, so we should do more, through passports, have left our shores. pensions and Government Departments, to make them Many hon. and right hon. Members will have received aware of their rights. Until recently, it has been a long, correspondence regarding overseas pensions. This is a drawn-out process, involving paper forms having to be classic example of an issue that continues to affect sent across the world simply to register, but under citizens after they have moved away from this country. changes made by this Government, I am pleased to say They should be able to raise these issues with their we have now made progress, and people living abroad votes, just as citizens living within the country are able can now register to vote online in just a few minutes at to do. I would urge all those who feel strongly about this www.gov.uk/register-to-vote. A further deterrent was or any other issue to register for an overseas vote. If the time it took to return postal votes from around the they do so in significant numbers, their voice will be world, but again the Government have recently introduced heard. changes to the individual voter registration system increasing It is clear from my conversations through our the period for returning postal votes from 17 to 25 days, Conservatives Abroad network around the world that which will be of considerable advantage to people living many people living abroad often pay closer attention to around the world. British politics and current affairs than many who live 161 Overseas Voters (15 Year Rule) 2 DECEMBER 2014 162

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown] Foreign Affairs Committee ( Visit) here. They are absolutely passionate about this country; they diligently read the British press and listen to our Emergency debate (Standing Order No. 24) media; they often have families and friends in the UK whom they visit. As true democrats in this mother of Mr Speaker: Before I call the Chair of the Foreign Parliaments, we should encourage and facilitate all the Affairs Committee to move his motion, it may be for millions of overseas voters to register, and we should the convenience of the House to know that I intend to abolish this 15-year rule. This would send a strong call the Front-Bench speakers to wind up the debate. signal to those people that we are enormously grateful The thrust of the debate is in the ownership of the that they are the unofficial ambassadors, trade envoys House, and I think that we shall want to hear from and representatives for our country around the world. Back-Bench Members, led by the Chair of the Foreign This is why I am pleased that the abolition of the Affairs Committee, Sir Richard Ottaway. 15-year rule is now official Conservative party policy, and will feature in our manifesto ahead of the general 12.50 pm election in 2015. It has always been our party that has Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): I beg to recognised the rights of overseas voters and understood move, their desire to remain linked to this country. That this House has considered the ban by on the Foreign Affairs Committee visit to Hong Kong. Today’s Bill is an important part of a long-running campaign by some very determined people for the unfettered As one who travels more than most, I have become right of all British citizens living abroad to have the only too aware of the high regard that the world has for vote—the universal franchise. Up until now, only the the United Kingdom—for what this iconic building Conservative party has campaigned on this issue. Today, stands for, what the Chamber stands for, and what those however, I issue a challenge to all other parties to join who sit in it stand for. It is, in a phrase, freedom and me in this campaign, to make this a cross-party issue democracy: a respect for human rights around the and to ensure that it duly happens. world, and an abhorrence of tyranny. The decision by the Government of China to ban the Foreign Affairs Question put and agreed to. Committee’s visit to Hong Kong is a mistake. It is an attack on the men and women of the free world. Ordered, It is nearly five years since the House did me the great honour of electing me Chairman of the Foreign Affairs That Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, Miss Chloe Smith, Committee. During that time, I have been ably supported Sir Roger Gale, Glyn Davies, Henry Smith, Mr Nigel by my colleagues. We have visited some of the most Evans, Sir Peter Bottomley, Sarah Newton, Alistair troubled parts of the world—places where democracy is Burt, Mr Dominic Grieve and Dr present the all but non-existent, or an illusion—but in none has Bill. anyone ever sought to deny us access, or accused us of Geoffrey Clifton-Brown accordingly presented the “meddling in the internal affairs of another country”, Bill. as the Chinese ambassador did during a meeting with me on 15 August. That is an accusation unsupported by Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on any evidence. Friday 6 March 2015, and to be printed (Bill 129). Between the end of the first opium war with China in 1842 and withdrawal in 1997, the Union flag flew over the island of Hong Kong. In 1898, the Chinese authorities granted a 99-year lease of the new territories on the mainland. The looming expiration of that lease began to exercise diplomats in the 1970s and 1980s. The Chinese made it clear that they wanted the return of the new territories, without which Hong Kong was not a viable entity. A course of action and a handover were carefully planned, and the Sino-British joint declaration was agreed. The declaration was signed in the Great Hall of the People in on 19 December 1984 by and the Chinese premier, Zhao Ziyang. It was deposited with the United Nations a few months later. I am afraid to say that I am old enough to have been a member of the House of Commons at the time of the signing. The reaction then was that this was not a bad deal at all. It was as good as we were going to get, and it was either this or no deal at all. At its heart was a commitment to a “one country, two system” style of government, and a pledge that the socialist system of China would not be practised in Hong Kong, that Hong Kong would retain its status as an international finance centre, and that its previous capitalist system, its rights, its freedoms and its way of life would remain unchanged for 50 years. The joint declaration provides 163 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 164 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) that those undertakings shall be set out in the Hong He concluded with the advice that the Committee should Kong Basic Law, and—critically—stipulates that the not make its planned visit to Hong Kong in December. Chief Executive may be elected. Article 45 of the Basic We rejected that advice, because we believed that it Law states: would be an abrogation of our responsibilities to the “The ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief Executive by House if we accepted it. universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative In a letter to me dated 22 November, Mr. Song Zhe, nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures.” China’s commissioner to Hong Kong—that is, its The flashpoint for the current protests in Hong Kong representative in Hong Kong—went further, saying that was the publication in August of a decision by the our visit would be viewed as standing committee of the National People’s Congress in Beijing on procedures for the election of the Chief “support to ‘Occupy Central’ and other illegal activities”. Executive in 2017. Aware of the forthcoming decision, Occupy Central is the name of the protesters’ campaign two key pro-democracy campaigners, Anson Chan and on the streets of Hong Kong. In response to the letter, Martin Lee, told our Committee in July that their main the Committee simply stated it was still our intention to concern was that the “broadly representative nominating visit. As a result, the deputy ambassador to the Chinese committee”, which approves candidates for the post of Embassy came to see me in the House on Friday Chief Executive, would be “dominated”by Beijing loyalists. afternoon, and informed me that the Committee would Martin Lee said that anyone who was not trusted by not be allowed entry into Hong Kong for the purposes Beijing would be of our inquiry. The meeting took place in a Committee “screened out ...even though they were trusted by the Hong Kong Room on the Upper Committee Corridor. Fortunately, people”. for the purpose of greater accuracy, I invited the editor That is the problem that has given rise to unrest, and to of Hansard to attend to ensure that there would be a the peaceful protests that have received global attention. verbatim record of the conversation. I am grateful to Let me clarify for the record, and for those who are her for her efforts. not familiar with the workings of the British constitution At the heart of the Chinese argument, conveyed to and the House, that a Select Committee is not part of me at the meeting, is that the joint declaration signed by the United Kingdom Government. On the contrary, the China and the United Kingdom is now void and only job of the Foreign Affairs Committee is to exercise covered the period from the signing in 1984 until the oversight of the Foreign Office and its policies, and we handover in 1997. Given that the Chinese Government operate totally independently. gave an undertaking that the policies enshrined in the Since the handover in 1997, the Foreign Office has agreement would remain unchanged for 50 years, this is published a report to Parliament on Hong Kong every a manifestly irresponsible and incorrect position to six months. In its report of 12 July this year, it said of take. It is a live agreement, which is why the Foreign the growing constitutional arguments: Office rightly continues to produce its six-monthly “the important thing is that the people of Hong Kong have a reports on Hong Kong. Britain is a party to over genuine choice and feel that they have a real stake in the outcome.” 18,000 international treaties and agreements. To suggest that we have no right to assess the performance of our It continued: counter-parties to such agreements is ridiculous. “But it is clear that there is still some way to go for consensus to be reached.” The second point made is the old Aunt Sally—which Given the hundreds of thousands of protesters who was made not once, but twice—that we are not a were on the streets, that was a wonderful British colonial power any more and must not behave like one. understatement by the then Foreign Secretary, who I I only mention this to enable the House to assess the am pleased to see is in the Chamber today. mindset inside the Chinese Government. In response to growing concern here and abroad, the I believe that the decision to ban the Committee is Foreign Affairs Committee decided to conduct an inquiry wrong and will have a profound impact. First, decisions into the strength, accuracy and veracity of the Foreign on entry to Hong Kong are devolved under the Basic Office reports. Our terms of reference are simple: to Law and are clearly a matter for the Hong Kong investigate not just the six- monthly reports and the Administration, not the Chinese Government. This sends political and constitutional issues that are raised, but a clear signal that the pledge that Hong Kong would the bilateral relationship in terms of trade, business and “enjoy a high degree of autonomy”, culture, and the work of the British Council. The most important point is that we embarked upon our report as set out in paragraph 3(2) of the joint agreement, is with an open mind. We have no preconceived conclusions, now under threat. That the ban on the Committee and we invited all interested parties to give evidence, clearly came from the Chinese Government brings into including the Hong Kong and Chinese Governments. question whether the key principle of “one country, two However, shortly after we announced our inquiry, the systems” still has any meaning. Chinese ambassador to London wrote to me on 14 July Secondly, we are China’s partners, not a distant stating that third party. This decision will do nothing but damage “The affairs of Hong Kong SAR”— Anglo-Chinese relations, something I regret. China is a Special Administrative Region— fellow member of the G20. We have a free flow of parliamentarians, officials, businessmen and those involved “are purely China’s internal affairs”, in cultural exchanges. I say to China, “If you want to be and that he was a member of the G20, you have to behave like a member “firmly opposed to any interference in Hong Kong…by any of the G20.” We have Chinese delegations here all the foreign country and by any means.” time. It should not be a one-way street. The Minister of 165 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 166 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) [Sir Richard Ottaway] following way: “Well, there was all that fuss about Tibet and we just got on with it, and there was all that fuss State, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon about our appalling human rights record but we have (Mr Swire), is, in fact, due to visit Hong Kong in a few just got on with it. So over time, this too, will all go weeks’ time; are they going to ban him, too? away and we’ll continue to trade and be able to sell our goods around the world and nobody will take a blind Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I fully support what bit of notice”? the right hon. Gentleman has said today. He has put his case in a very measured and eloquent way and I am sure Sir Richard Ottaway: The hon. Gentleman makes a the whole House supports the position taken by the very good point. After the spat over the Dalai Lama, Foreign Affairs Committee, which of course has Anglo-Chinese relations were on the right trajectory, implications for other Select Committees, should they and I think this is a very serious hiccup now, which will wish to visit other countries. give a lot of people reason to pause and reflect. We will continue with our inquiry, but this decision Of course, Select Committees are separate from the cannot go unchallenged. As Members of this House are Government, but were any representations made by well aware, as we enter this Chamber we pass under the the Government to the Chinese Government about the archway which has been deliberately left with the damage refusal to grant a visa and allow the FAC to go to inflicted by a bomb in the second world war. It is a China? reminder of the damage that can ultimately be caused by the enemies of freedom. The anchor in our world Sir Richard Ottaway: As a fellow Select Committee today is freedom. It gives us our sense of direction. It is Chairman, I am very grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s how we decide between right and wrong. I invite the support and he will fully understand the position the Government to condemn this action in the strongest Committee finds itself in. If he does not mind, I will possible terms. leave it to the Minister to answer his question, perhaps when he winds up, but I would say that the Foreign 1.7 pm Office has been nothing but supportive of the Committee throughout this unhappy episode. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): I hope that China will, even at this late stage, change its mind. I say that Thirdly, and most importantly, this decision points to because 26 years ago, as a Member of this House, I China’s direction of travel. If there is a commitment went with a delegation to Hong Kong. We stayed there to democracy in Hong Kong, one first has to understand for a week, and then at the end of the week we booked democracy.Democracy embraces criticism, and constructive through a tourist organisation a visit to mainland China. criticism is the most valuable thing democracy can We got as far as Macau and got on a tourist bus ready provide. If China blatantly blocks well-wishers like this to cross the border into China, but at the border three Parliament, that raises big, unanswered questions which of us—three British MPs—were asked to get off the will alarm the people of Hong Kong and the region. bus. We questioned at the time why we were asked to get This decision will not go unnoticed in Taiwan. off the bus when we had tickets for a three-day visit to China. The tour operator said he could not answer the Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): May I question, but we were welcome to stay at their expense say that it is a pleasure to serve on the FAC under my in Macau for the weekend. That, of course, was not the right hon. Friend’s chairmanship? Does he agree that idea. It was not until we got back to London and I the Chinese Government have already concluded that visited the Chinese ambassador that I was told what the they know what our report will say, which is unwise, reason was: it was that one of our MP members had and they have forfeited the opportunity to put their case “journalist” written in his passport. Because it was to the Committee? 26 years ago and around the time of Tiananmen square, the ambassador said they were afraid that if they let us Sir Richard Ottaway: My hon. Friend is absolutely into China we would create some bother. However, he right and I value his support on the Committee. We then apologised and said it had all been a bad mistake, have approached this inquiry with an open mind, and I and offered us a visit to China at the expense of the think the Chinese Government and the Hong Kong Chinese Government, which we took him up on, and authorities are missing a real opportunity by declining there followed a very interesting visit to China. I hope to give evidence to us. Indeed they do not even recognise that, if the Chinese Government are listening to these the Committee as they continue to call this a “so-called speeches, there is still time for them to admit they have inquiry.” made a mistake and that we should be allowed in. Finally, Hong Kong is the largest stock market in I support the views of the Chairman of the Foreign China and its main financial services hub, supporting a Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Croydon fifth of the world’s population. It currently has free South (Sir Richard Ottaway), who has eloquently presented flows of money, goods and services. What sort of message the case. does this send to future investors? This arbitrary action While I have the opportunity, I want to talk about can only harm China’s reputation and financial interests freedom of the press. The Chairman talked about the in an increasingly global world. In Asia, a stable importance of freedom of speech and of the press. looks a much better place to do business at the moment. Under article 27 of the Basic Law, residents of Hong Kong Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I have “shall have freedom of speech, of the press and publication; been listening with great interest to the right hon. freedom of association, of assembly, of procession and Gentleman’s speech, which I think is absolutely spot-on. demonstration”, Does he agree that the Chinese are looking at this in the and the right to join trade unions and to strike. 167 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 168 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) In recent years, however, there has been an increasing also plays a role in debates over press freedom. Reporters number of complaints from Hong Kong that the freedom Without Borders drew attention in its annual report to of the press, in particular, is being undermined in a this fact, stating: number of different ways. For instance, this year, Hong “China’s growing economic weight is allowing it to extend its Kong fell to a record low of 61st in the annual global influence over the media in Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan, ranking for press freedom complied by Reporters Without which had largely been spared political censorship until recently. Borders. The 2014 annual report of the Hong Kong Media independence is now in jeopardy in these three territories, Journalists’ Association, entitled “Press Freedom Under which are either ‘special administrative regions’ or claimed by Siege”, calls 2014 Beijing.” I would describe the situation for press and broadcasting “the darkest year for press freedom for several decades, with the media coming under relentless assault from several directions.” freedom in Hong Kong as dire. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s six-monthly The report also argued that the suppression of press report on Hong Kong covering July to December 2013 freedom was happening included a section on press freedom and freedom of “despite the existence of protection by law.” expression. It noted that there were “some concerns” Violence against journalists has also increased in that these freedoms were “under threat”. I think that is Hong Kong as part of the growing intimidation of rather too mild. The report concluded that those rights journalists. The most recent such incident was a knife were “generally well respected”, but detailed a number attack carried out on 26 February against Kevin Lau, of controversies particularly relating to press freedom. the former editor-in-chief of the popular daily, Ming It its six-monthly report covering January to June 2014, Pao, which was often critical of Beijing. Mr Lau had the FCO listed several similar incidents of controversy been abruptly fired a month beforehand by the paper’s or demonstrations relating to concerns in Hong Kong owner, a tycoon with major investments in China, and about perceived infringements of press freedom. It noted replaced by a new editor who was widely seen as more that people in Hong Kong appeared to be increasingly pro-Chinese. The attack drew widespread condemnation, worried about self-censorship. It also noted, however, including from the Hong Kong Government. that in April, the chief executive had spoken in support of press freedom because it was Attacks have also been carried out this year against senior figures in the Hong Kong Morning News Media “a cornerstone of a free society”. Group and, in 2013, against the owner of the free The Foreign and Commonwealth Office did not take newspaper am730, the publisher of iSun Affairs and the a particular stand on the specific concerns it mentioned, Next Media chairman Jimmy Lai. All the victims were stating: connected with media outlets known for expressing “We believe that freedom of expression, including of the press, critical views of Beijing. has played an important role in Hong Kong’s success. It is one of the fundamental freedoms protected by the Joint Declaration. As Aside from the attacks, many of which have not been such, we take seriously concerns about press freedom, including solved, other complaints about press freedom centre on fears about self-censorship. We welcome the Chief Executive’s issues such as self-censorship and personnel changes. clear statements on press freedom and we will continue to monitor Such complaints do not generally allege that the legal the situation closely.” right to press freedom in Hong Kong is being challenged, As the Chairman of the Select Committee has said, but rather that journalists or media outlets that are our investigation is going to continue. I hope that the known to criticise Beijing are increasingly facing problems Chinese Government are listening to the points that are such as the withdrawal of advertisers, the abrupt and being made in this debate and that they will think again, unexplained sacking of outspoken management or editorial as they did 26 years ago when they recognised that they staff, and the denial of applications to renew broadcasting had made a mistake by excluding three of us from licences. China at that time.

Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): I am listening 1.17 pm with great attention to my right hon. Friend’s speech, and we all deplore the events that she has described. Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): I pay tribute Would it not, however, be naive to believe that a China to my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South controlled by the Communist party and determined to (Sir Richard Ottaway), the Chairman of the Foreign maintain its dictatorship is going to allow freedom of Affairs Committee. Central to the concern that the expression and the democratic rights in Hong Kong House is expressing is the question of whether the that we all wish to see? United Kingdom can reasonably be accused of interfering in the internal affairs of China. I was privileged to serve as Foreign Secretary for the final two years of British Ann Clwyd: The point that I was making earlier was sovereignty over Hong Kong and I was personally that those rights are enshrined in law, and that the involved in the final stages of the negotiations. If the Chinese Government are therefore breaking the law if Committee had been trying to comment on matters that those rights are being violated. were irrelevant to either the joint declaration or the These issues are creating a climate in which, although Basic Law, there could be a legitimate complaint that press freedom is respected according to the letter of the those were the internal affairs of China. However, the law, journalists are either being pressurised by advertisers question of the franchise in Hong Kong goes to the very and media owners to avoid criticising Beijing or being heart of the joint declaration and the Basic Law. denied a platform from which to make such criticisms. The Chairman of the Committee was entirely correct The rise of the Chinese-owned media in Hong Kong, in to say that it is patently absurd to suggest that the tandem with China’s more general economic growth, right—in fact, the obligation—of the United Kingdom 169 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 170 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) [Sir Malcolm Rifkind] justify ignoring it. So when China is now committed to the rule of law “with Chinese characteristics”, it is Government to take an interest in the fulfilment of the worth asking what the characteristics are. commitments expired when sovereignty transferred to I have a reason to think I know what those characteristics Hong Kong. Only 17 years have passed in the 50-year mean and I wish to share it briefly with the House. commitment by the Chinese Government to fulfil those When I was Foreign Secretary, one of my obligations obligations. That commitment was part of an international was to have a series of negotiations with the then agreement reached with Her Majesty’s Government, Chinese Foreign Minister, Qian Qichen, about the handover and it is an obligation, not just an entitlement, for the of Hong Kong to the People’s Republic. I vividly remember British Government and the Committees of this House one meeting in Beijing when I said to him that what was to monitor these matters and to express their views important to the people of Hong Kong when they on them. became part of China was not simply that they would I genuinely believe that the Chinese Government have have elections, a pluralist political system and so on, done themselves a disservice by taking this step. They important though that was, but that they would also have demonstrated not their strength but their weakness. continue to enjoy the rule of law. I knew what I meant The idea that vetoing the issue of visas would resolve by that, as this House would, but I have never forgotten the issue was simply wrong. I understand that the his response, which was, “Please don’t worry, Mr Rifkind. Committee is, quite rightly, going to continue its work, We in China also believe in the rule of law. In China, the and all that has happened is that this action has created people must obey the law.” I had to point out to him some very adverse publicity for the Chinese Government, that when we and the people of Hong Kong talked which could easily have been avoided. They should have about the rule of law, we were talking not just about the welcomed the Foreign Affairs Committee and used the people obeying the law, but about the Government visit as an opportunity to put forward their point of obeying the law—the Government had to be acting view. They could have explained that, under their own under the law and there had to be an independent legal proposals, there would be a mass franchise. They could and judicial system. Manifestly, the then Chinese Foreign also have explained the justification for their belief that Minister not only did not agree with me, but had not the the selection of candidates should be under their control. faintest idea what I was saying; he could not understand that distinction, and we see that elsewhere; we see it in As to whether the Chinese Government would have Putin’s Russia at the moment. The view is that Governments persuaded the Committee, we cannot say one way or make laws and therefore, if they do not like them, they the other, but that is how they should have operated. can either ignore them or change them with impunity, They have done themselves a disservice in a much wider and that is a very serious matter. sense than simply the implications for Hong Kong, because part of the reason for the original commitment It is now 17 years since the transition. I think we have by Deng Xiaoping to two systems in one country was to acknowledge that in many fundamental respects not just to find a solution to the issue of Hong Kong; Hong Kong remains very different from China. Compared infinitely more important to Chinese policy and Chinese with the rest of the People’s Republic, it is an open and national aspirations is whether Taiwan will one day relatively free society, and we should commend the agree to rejoin the motherland. Central to the Chinese Chinese Government for the extent to which they have Government’s position ever since Deng Xiaoping has carried out not only much of the letter of the commitment, been an attempt to reassure the people and the Government but a significant amount of its spirit. If they had not of Taiwan—now a democratic Government with a pluralist done so, Hong Kong would not be the open society that system and the rule of law—that their way of life would it still remains today. But this House, like the world as a not be endangered by some agreement at some stage to whole, is conscious that these distinctions are being eroded, peacefully join with China under the People’s Republic. and in the short term the situation is rather grim if the The controversies that are convulsing Hong Kong at the Chinese Government are determined to nibble away moment do enormous damage to the credibility of the wherever they can at the freedoms that the people of Chinese Government’s ability to put forward that argument. Hong Kong enjoy and are entitled to continue to enjoy. They should realise that, and it is astonishing that they In the medium to longer term, the difference between still persist in the policy that we are debating. Hong Kong and the rest of China will erode, but not in Central to these issues is not just the question of the direction that the current Chinese Government would democracy in Hong Kong, but the rule of law, which is like; it will not be by Hong Kong becoming more like not just about the number of political parties, the China, but in the longer term by China becoming more candidates or free elections. We all understand what the like Hong Kong. Already the pressures within China for rule of law means. A fascinating speech was made by a more open and more pluralist system, and for some the current leader of China and a policy was implemented choice in the election of its leaders, are becoming very by the National People’s Congress just a few weeks ago, significant. To be fair, the Chinese Government have when the Chinese Government declared that the priority already experimented in some local elections with allowing objective for the immediate future was the rule of law in more than one candidate and a real element of choice, China—but they described it in a specific way. They albeit in a very restricted way. said that China would be utterly committed to the rule The final point I make is simply that the Chinese of law “with Chinese characteristics”. That is an interesting Government’s current assumption about pluralism, qualification. I recall the days of the Soviet Union, democracy and the rule of law is that they are western when people referred to “people’s democracies” and we values, not Chinese ones. The evidence that discounts knew that the addition of “people’s” was in practice a that, showing it to be worthless as an argument, is not negation of the democracy itself. Once people start what happens in the west; it is found by looking at the having to qualify democracy, it is an excuse to try to transformation of Taiwan, at Hong Kong and, to a 171 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 172 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) significant degree, at Singapore—all Chinese communities I have a painting in my house of the gate to Tiananmen that not only talk about democracy, but practise it. square. When we look at what has happened in China, They practise pluralism and have independent judicial we should be more realistic about the situation. Okay, if systems, and that clearly corresponds to the wishes of we want to be brutal and say that trade matters more the people they govern. So we are talking about universal than anything else, we should understand that that is a values, and the Chairman and members of the Foreign point of view and a policy. But let us take into account Affairs Committee have done a great service, not just to the fact that China still has the death penalty, which it this House, but to Hong Kong and to China as a whole, uses whenever it feels so inclined. It tortures and imprisons by opening up this debate in the way that we are able to without trial—I saw a programme on television about do today. an artist who was imprisoned for producing the wrong paintings. There is no genuine freedom of speech, and 1.26 pm the state interferes with the social media whenever it feels so inclined. I am not saying that we can transform Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I all of that; of course we cannot. I am just outlining hope the House will forgive me if I do not remain what is happening. throughout this debate, as I have other commitments, although I very much wanted to be present for this The day may come when China, like the Soviet powers, debate. suddenly becomes a democracy. I hope that I will live to I was in Hong Kong at the handover from the United see it. But at this moment, it is very, very important for Kingdom to the Chinese Government. I remember that this House to register its anger at what has taken place Prince Charles gave a party aboard the royal yacht and at the insult to the Foreign Affairs Committee and Britannia, but there was nothing to celebrate. I was therefore to this House of Commons. I am grateful to there in an auditorium when Chinese troops goose-stepped you, Mr Speaker, for calling on me to speak, because I along the stage, hauled down the Union flag and hoisted did not wish this incident to go by without stating my the Chinese flag, and I regarded it as a day of shame for experience and my view. Britain. There was never any obligation to hand over Hong Kong to China. , when he was governor of Hong Kong, belatedly tried to stop it, but by then it 1.32 pm was too late because the then Government had decided Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I that that was what should be done. I have no doubt that am glad to follow the excellent opening speech of it was Foreign Office officials abiding by their usual my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South custom of ingratiating themselves with a Foreign (Sir Richard Ottaway), the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Government with whom we could have valuable trading Committee, of which I have been a member since 1992. relations, with democracy as the second consideration. When you, Mr Speaker, gave your most welcome Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): The right hon. consent to this debate yesterday, you were entirely correct Gentleman makes a point about trade. China is looking in stating that the situation we face is entirely unprecedented. to deploy enormous amounts of capital in Europe and, The Foreign Affairs Committee, during the long period clearly, a lot of investment is taking place in the UK, in which I have been privileged to serve on it, has never which I welcome. What more could be done to impress before been refused entry to any country in the world. upon the Chinese Government that these incidents As the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee has ultimately hit business confidence and that they need to already pointed out, this is a dangerous precedent for get over this because we want to see more investment other Committees in the House and for the House as from China in Europe? a whole. Sir Gerald Kaufman: The problem is that the Foreign In a previous visit to China in the last Parliament, we Office and other Departments such as the Department were subject to threats and a degree of intimidation, as for Business, Innovation and Skills say, “In the end, the authorities tried to deter us from going to Tibet. I human rights in China and in Hong Kong are secondary was privileged to lead the group that eventually went to to the fact that China is now an immense economic Tibet, and we faced down those threats and attempts to power and a very important trading partner.” The intimidate us. At the end of the visit, we faced further problem is that the days when morality dictated foreign intimidation and threats from the Chinese authorities policy have diminished, and it is very important for when they found out that we were going from mainland us to understand what is going on there. I remember China to Taiwan. That difficult situation was admirably making a great mistake when I led a Labour party handled by the then Chair of the Committee, the hon. delegation to China as shadow Foreign Secretary. I said Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes). Again, we to the leaders of the Chinese Communist party that if faced down the Chinese authorities and went to Taiwan they wanted China to be a capitalist country, which as planned. they clearly did, they would have to abandon autocracy I am sure that all parts of the House would regard and adopt democracy. I could not have been more this unprecedented situation as wholly unacceptable. wrong, because they have managed to create a capitalist What the Chinese are seeking to achieve by barring the economy without putting in place a democratic society. FAC from Hong Kong escapes me. As the Chairman of This is a very important moment in our relationship the Committee made it clear, we will not be deflected with Hong Kong. I pay tribute to many of the things from our inquiry. We shall continue to take evidence for that were said at Foreign Office questions today, but the our inquiry, including from people in Hong Kong—we Government must take into account the fact that although are capable of doing that without actually going to trade and jobs are important, morality is also very Hong Kong—and we shall make our report to the important and we should stand up for it. House in due course. 173 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 174 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) [Sir John Stanley] I do not want to spend too long talking about that, but I did want to talk about the issues about Parliament In political terms, the Chinese authorities have scored and the Committee’s inquiry. Let me go back to the a spectacular own goal. They could not have given more previous time we visited China. In May 2006, the previous eloquent credence to the case being made by the pro- Parliament’s Foreign Affairs Committee, which I had democracy demonstrators in Hong Kong that the joint the great honour of chairing, went to Hong Kong and declaration is under threat; they could not have made from there to Beijing. The group then split into two. it clearer by the way in which they have dealt with the One went to Tibet, to Lhasa, and the other, which I led, House of Commons’s Foreign Affairs Committee. went to . We then met up again in Hong Kong Notwithstanding that, the issue of how the British and went to Taiwan. One of the interesting episodes, to Government respond is of key importance. which the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling I must say to the Minister of State, Foreign and just referred, was the meeting we had with Foreign Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member Minister Li Zhaoxing. He was very pleasant to begin for East Devon (Mr Swire), and to my right hon. Friend with and asked me how my right hon. Friend the the Foreign Secretary that I have, thus far, been very Member for Derby South (Margaret Beckett), the then disappointed with what I have seen in the public domain Foreign Secretary, was doing as he had had amicable from the Foreign Office in its response to the situation discussions with her in the United Nations Security in which this House and the FAC have been placed. As Council meetings. After 10 minutes, he switched completely far as I can see, all they have said is that the Chinese to tell us, “I understand that you intend to go to our authorities’ response and ban on the Foreign Affairs 19th province”—that is, Taiwan. “We have no objection Committee is “regrettable”. That is nothing like good to your going, but only after the reunification of our enough. The House and democracy in this country have country.” been treated with contempt. I hope that the Minister of He then said, “You are all diplomats.” We said, “No, State will give us a robust response when he ends this we are parliamentarians. You don’t understand. We are debate. not here representing the British Government but doing an inquiry and our presence and visit will not in any 1.37 pm way change the British Government’s policy. We are doing this because we need to investigate Taiwan and its Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): As always, it relationship with China.” He said, “If you do this, there is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for will be serious consequences.” We wondered what those Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley) He will recall serious consequences were. As the right hon. Member that I, as a newly elected Member of this House, joined for Tonbridge and Malling said, the visit continued and him on the Foreign Affairs Committee in 1992. In my we went to Tibet and to Shanghai, went back to Hong time as a member of the FAC, I made many visits to Kong and then to Taiwan. There were no serious many different countries. We might have had some consequences for the Foreign Affairs Committee. issues about who we were able to meet and the exact timings of visits, but we were never told—not even by Later on in the previous Parliament, when the Committee Russia, Iran, , Pakistan, Afghanistan or was considering human rights issues globally, we decided China—that we were not welcome to come and that the as a Committee to receive the Dalai Lama for a public authorities would stop them getting off aircraft. It is evidence session, which I chaired. At that point, I not, as some Members have said, a matter of visas; UK received a very long and vitriolic letter from the National citizens do not need visas to go to Hong Kong. The People’s Congress in Beijing and a visit from the then Hong Kong Government determine their own internal Chinese ambassador, who subsequently became a deputy arrangements, yet the people in Beijing and their diplomatic Foreign Minister, bringing lots of different materials representatives in London have told us that we are not including piles of books about the CIA’s role in Tibet welcome in Hong Kong, which is, as the Chair of the and other documentation. The Chinese are obviously Committee so ably put it, a breach of the undertakings very sensitive, as they always have been, about issues to given by the Chinese to the people of Hong Kong and do with their status and the respect others have for to our representatives in the negotiations that led to the China in the world. We can have a robust exchange joint declaration. about such issues, but there has never been a ban on Members have asked why China is doing this. I parliamentarians from this House as a result of those suspect—and this really surprises me—that they are differences. That tells me that there is something happening afraid that the presence of a handful of British internally in China that is worrying. parliamentarians is somehow going to change the internal In our report after the inquiry in the previous Parliament, dynamics in Hong Kong and China. They must be very we commented on the situation in Hong Kong. In one nervous and worried. What is happening in Hong Kong of our conclusions, we recommended that is not being broadcast in the Chinese media. We can see it covered in the rest of the world and we can see it in “the Government urge the Hong Kong Special Administrative Taiwan, but the Chinese authorities have rigorously Region to make significant, major steps towards representative censored communications about events in Hong Kong. democracy and to agree with Beijing a timetable by which direct election of the Chief Executive and LegCo by universal suffrage That also happens when the people of Hong Kong will be achieved.” protest on the anniversary of the massacre in Tiananmen square—not a word of it is broadcast by the Chinese I hope that that is a position to which we all, including state authorities. This is an indication that the Chinese Members on the Government and Opposition Front regime is prepared to use a ruthless power because it is Benches, could agree today. It is of course a matter for afraid. That augurs badly for what might happen in the people of Hong Kong and China to make proposals Hong Kong in the coming weeks and months. using the arrangements set out in the basic law, but the 175 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 176 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) aspiration for representative democracy and universal attitude and, as the hon. Lady has highlighted, there are suffrage should apply for all people as soon as possible, a number of territorial disputes around the coast and in including in Hong Kong. east Asia, where a number of states are in contention The Committee also commented on the internal situation for territories that have the potential for gas and oil in Hong Kong with civil liberties, humanitarian issues exploration. I do not want to go down that track now and the rule of law. Our conclusion in 2006 was that and so will conclude by talking about democracy. “despite some concerns, overall Hong Kong remains a vibrant, In our 2006 report, the Committee came to an important dynamic, open and liberal society with a generally free press and conclusion. We were commenting on the Chinese military an independent judiciary, subject to the rule of law.” build-up across the Taiwan straits and the possible I hope that we can say the same about Hong Kong threat to peace and stability in east Asia. Relations today. Obviously, our report will have to be published in between Taiwan and China have since improved due course when we have finished taking evidence, but I significantly: there are now far more direct flights, there think that the behaviour of the Chinese authorities is massive investment, and millions of mainland Chinese towards our Committee as well as other issues that have tourists visit Taiwan, as I saw last new year—the hotel I been raised with us so far in the evidence we have was staying in was full of mainland Chinese. Nevertheless, received prompt concern about whether those principles there is still great sensitivity in China about what is and values are under threat today. happening in Taiwan. The Taiwanese people, as they Let me conclude with a more general point, which have shown in recent local elections, are very committed has been mentioned in passing. Some people believe to democracy. They throw politicians out and reject that we should turn a blind eye to this and some people incumbent parties and Governments regularly. believe that the economic imperative should determine Our 2006 report—I think that this is still pertinent everything. Those of us who have been to Taiwan, today—concluded: however, or to other countries around the world with “the growth and development of democracy in Taiwan is of the significant Chinese populations, know that there is nothing greatest importance, both for the island itself and for the population inherently authoritarian, Stalinist, Leninist or Maoist of greater China, since it demonstrates incontrovertibly that in the Chinese character. What is communist about Chinese people can develop democratic institutions and thrive China today? Only the name of the ruling party. It has a under them.” state capitalist economic system run by an elite that That is also relevant to Hong Kong, which is why what holds political power through a one-party system and is happening there matters and why our Committee is suppresses and controls dissent. How sustainable is that absolutely right to continue our inquiry and, in due the future? I do not know. China’s economy is turning course, produce a report. The Government will then down and the rate of growth is slowing. China has a have to respond to that report, hopefully before the next major demographic problem long term and its ability to election, so that the House can have a further debate meet the aspirations of its people, which it has done, about developments in Hong Kong and China over the taking hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in coming months. recent years, is not necessarily sustainable indefinitely under its current political model. 1.53 pm There are clearly big questions for the rest of the Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): The House debates world about how we deal with a growing China. People today in unusual, if not unprecedented, circumstances. have talked about China’s rise and Martin Jacques, an It is a matter of deep frustration, disappointment and author who is very well informed although I do not regret to me not only that are we here to do that, but agree with his rose-tinted conclusions, has written a that I am here as an individual who has played a part in book called, “When China Rules the World”. Frankly, the events leading up to the debate. For it is not only the if China were to become the most important country in Foreign Affairs Committee that has been effectively the world politically that would raise serious questions prevented from visiting Hong Kong: a week ago my visa about what kind of universal values it would have and application to join the UK-China leadership forum in what kind of rule of law and humanitarian law there Shanghai was rejected, as a result of which the entire would be. parliamentary delegation has pulled out of the forum. It might be a small point for some people that a We must ask ourselves why that has happened. The Committee of the House of Commons has been prevented underlying answer, of course, as my right hon. Friend from going to Hong Kong, but it raises fundamental the Member for Croydon South (Sir Richard Ottaway) questions. rightly said, is that we have a serious disagreement with China over our ability to discuss and debate issues in Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): Does the hon. Hong Kong. As other Members have said, it is sad that Gentleman agree that the banning of the visit is even before the Committee’s report has been drafted, let symptomatic of China’s attitude to the rest of the alone completed, China has concluded that it must be world, particularly her near neighbours, considering the negative in principle because of its existence, rather aggression over the Senkaku islands, the adventurism in than its content, which is as yet unknown. the South China sea and the intransigence she has In the same way, I was clearly penalised for having demonstrated in the Security Council? the temerity to organise a debate on Hong Kong on 22 October. In my speech on that day, I congratulated Mike Gapes: I would be fairer to China, because it Britain and China’s leaders in 1984 on finding has played a positive role in some international matters, “a formula, and later the trust, that maintained confidence within such as climate change, and certainly on international Hong Kong and by the world in Hong Kong. Thirty years on, the security, so I do not think that all its actions have been architects can congratulate themselves. Broadly, Hong Kong has on the bad side. However, there are concerns about its thrived and remains special and successful.” 177 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 178 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) [Richard Graham] that is to our mutual benefit, much in the way of mutual challenges and much that we are doing together to I concluded my speech thus: make the world a better place. “For the people of Hong Kong and we”— I genuinely believe that the role of diplomats is to build bridges, not barriers; to solve problems, not to meaning all of us in Parliament— create them; to help bring our two countries closer “have no interest, no advantage or no conceivable selfish purpose together; and to strengthen the relationships between in any form of car crash with Hong Kong’s sovereign master, this Parliament and the National People’s Congress in China. Rather, it is in all our interests, but particularly those of Beijing. Let me, for the record, respond to Ambassador Britain and China in fulfilling the joint declaration, that Hong Kong continues to thrive and prosper, in a different world from Liu’s comment that I should that of 1984 or even 1997.”—[Official Report, 22 October 2014; “do more things to promote” Vol. 586, c. 276-81WH.] the China-UK relationship. For three years, I was this I do not believe that anyone in this House, or indeed country’s British trade commissioner to China, and also anywhere, could take violent objection to the thoughts our consul to Macau. Later, I opened the first merchant and beliefs behind that statement. However, I am afraid banking group office in China and listed the first Chinese that there was an objection, which I received today in company on the London stock exchange. In 1993, I was hard copy—it had insufficient postage and so arrived part of the Anglo-Chinese expedition to make the first only today—from Ambassador Liu of the People’s ever crossing of the Taklamakan desert. During that Republic of China. He expressed severe displeasure and expedition, I should, by rights, have died from amoebic disappointment about a letter I had written to him dysentery. I was saved by some unbelievably strong some 10 days before the debate, outlining my reasons antibiotics that meant I could not eat for five days while for holding it. walking some 25 miles a day in the heat of that hitherto uncrossed desert, so every day since the winter of 1993 I will recap the crucial part of the reason. As chair of has, to some extent, been an extra day in my life. When I the all-party China group, I believe that I have two main came out of the desert—so thin that my trousers fell responsibilities, as outlined on our writing paper and down when I tried to pull them up—and went straight clearly laid out on our website: first, to provide a forum to Shanghai to open the office of my employers, I for debate on all matters of bilateral interest; and secondly, vowed that I would dedicate a chunk of my life to doing to help to inform parliamentarians through regular things that would continue to help relations between visits to China. I believe that by holding the debate on Britain and China. Hong Kong I was fulfilling the first objective. Some two years later, my wife, Anthea, made me Ambassador Liu wrote: aware of what was happening in Chinese orphanages in ‘Matters related to Hong Kong are none but China’s internal Shanghai. She was, at the time, the person in charge of affairs, where China is firmly opposed to intervention or interference the welfare team of the Shanghai Expatriate Association. of any kind by any country or any individual, including the Many Members will know that, largely because of the House of Commons’ inquiry, debate and investigation involving one-child system, huge numbers of orphans, often Hong Kong. Yourinsistence on having the aforementioned debate predominantly female, were dumped on the doorsteps in the House of Commons has in effect meddled in such internal of orphanages and would spend the rest of their lives in matters of Hong Kong and sent out a wrong signal. Such moves, an institution. This was a human tragedy. My wife’s exploited by the opposition in Hong Kong, will only create an dedication to helping two or three individual orphans impression that Britain supports unlawful activities such as ‘occupy Central’.” led me to create a charitable company in Hong Kong called Children First and to get pledges of significant I have read out excerpts from my speech, and I do not amounts of money from businesses in Hong Kong to believe that any objective reader could reach any of the support the creation of what would effectively become a conclusions reached by Ambassador Liu, least of all an foster care system in Shanghai. impression that Britain supports unlawful activities such At that time, talks with the Shanghai municipal as those of Occupy Central, which did not feature in my government fell through, largely on the issue of trust speech at all. about who would have control of the money. However, Ambassador Liu’s letter went on to state that I, as the relationship with the civil affairs bureau was so chair of the all-party China group, strong that when a British citizen, Robert Glover, arrived “charged with the responsibility and mission of advancing China-UK in Shanghai and was introduced to the bureau by my relations”— wife, he was able to take forward our original vision and create what is now Care For Children—the first ever that is not strictly my mission, as I have just explained— joint venture Sino-British charity, now joint ventured should with the central Government’s civil affairs bureau. To “refrain from interfering in the internal affairs of Hong Kong as date, it has taken between 250,000 and 300,000 orphans well as China. I urge you to do more things to promote China-UK out of orphanages and put them in foster homes. It is a relationship, rather than disrupt or undermine its healthy remarkable success. I pay tribute to Rob Glover, who is development.” in London this week, and all that the charity has It is true that relations between our two countries have achieved. I am proud to have been first its adviser and improved considerably. My right hon. Friend the Minister later a director. and I were both part of the very successful delegation That is one example of a personal commitment to led by the Prime Minister to China a year ago, and improving things between Britain and China that I earlier this summer we had a very successful visit by the hope will show the House that far from doing things to Chinese premier, Li Keqiang, to the UK. All of us here disrupt and undermine the healthy development of the want to see positive relations between Britain and China relationships between our two countries, I have consistently for precisely the reasons I have outlined. We have much tried to enhance them. 179 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 180 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) In that context, I am deeply disappointed by what own Government, so we are certainly not going to be happened this summer when the Foreign Affairs Committee deterred from carrying out our duties by any foreign rightly decided, owing to the events in Hong Kong and Government, from whatever part of the globe. to the six-monthly update report on Hong Kong by Her I cannot honestly say that I am surprised about what Majesty’s Government, that it was time for it to write a has happened, because I was present when the Foreign report on the state of the relations between the UK and Affairs Committee went to China during the last Hong Kong. It is very disappointing that a China that is Parliament, as outlined by my hon. Friend the Member now in every way stronger, more confident and more for Ilford South (Mike Gapes). It was quite an experience. robust than it was 35 years ago, when first I visited, has I recollect that we received a friendly welcome and had been unable to recognise that this should be seen as a meetings with many representatives of the Chinese positive and encouraging development that opens doors Government. However, as my hon. Friend said, when it rather than closes them, and to welcome a report that, became clear that we intended to visit Taiwan, we were in many ways, may turn out to be a lot more positive told in no uncertain terms that this would lead to than it expects. “serious consequences”. My recollection of the meeting Today’s debate is unfortunate in many ways. When that he described is that we were more or less thrown my visa was rejected 10 days ago, I decided not to say out; “asked to leave” would be a more polite way of anything about it because I did not want to contribute putting it. As he said, the serious consequences did not to a worsening situation. It was already, to me, a huge arise for us, but it was an illustration of the kind of disappointment that a body like the UK-China leadership overreaction we can expect from a Government who do forum—which exists precisely to have the dialogue that not understand the concept of transparency and democracy, two countries with different histories, cultures and systems not to mention scrutiny and accountability. of government and parliament must have in order to Taking the unprecedented step of refusing entry to a overcome their differences of opinion and views on the Select Committee takes the whole matter much further. world at large—was having to be disrupted on the I believe that this amounts to a diplomatic crisis. It is simple principle that China chooses its delegation and more than regrettable, as the Foreign and Commonwealth we choose ours. Office has publicly stated—it is totally unacceptable. I This debate is essentially about the freedom that this hope that the FCO will make the strongest representations House must have to fulfil our duties and obligations to on the matter and take it further with a view to seeking our constituents. Our constituents are interested in a a change of position on the part of the Chinese Government strong relationship with China. Of course, business and forthwith. I look forward to hearing what the Minister the economy are a vital part of that, but our constituents has to say about what the Government intend to do. are deeply interested in other aspects of the relationship, We as a Committee have been working hard on this many of which relate to human rights and animal inquiry for some time and taken extensive evidence to rights. We must raise those issues and they must be date. However, there is no real substitute for finding the debated and discussed. The all-party group cannot and facts on the ground, as we have often found in some of should not avoid them; it must discuss them. We must the most dangerous places in the world, which often recognise that there will be differences of opinion, but lack democracy. Under the chairmanship of the right they should be aired in a sensible, responsible way that hon. Member for Croydon South (Sir Richard Ottaway), recognises the cultural differences. This debate is all we have sought to conduct the inquiry in a responsible about the ability of our House to discuss and debate—and manner and as inclusively as possible, preferably with ultimately to enhance, not disrupt—relations between the full co-operation of the Hong Kong authorities. Of these two great countries. course, our concern for human rights and democracy is part of that, but our inquiry is wide ranging and we believe it is timely to look at how the Sino-British joint 2.6 pm declaration is being implemented 30 years after it was Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): agreed by both parties. It is a pleasure to speak after the hon. Member for Contrary to the views of the Chinese Government, Gloucester (Richard Graham), who made a very moving Lord Patten told us that the terms of the 1984 joint and sombre speech about his experiences in China and declaration between the UK and China, agreeing the how sad it is that China has chosen to reject his arrival. transfer of sovereignty to China and setting out “one The Chairman of the Committee, the right hon. Member country, two systems” principles of governance, explicitly for Croydon South (Sir Richard Ottaway), gave a very gave the UK a legitimate interest in Hong Kong’s future. full and effective explanation of what he called this When China asserts that what is happening in Hong unfortunate and unhappy episode—I am sure we all Kong is nothing to do with us, we should make it agree with that. absolutely clear, publicly and privately, that that is not I am pleased that we have the opportunity in this the case. We are not interfering in China’s internal emergency debate to highlight how unacceptable the affairs. actions of the Chinese Government have been in banning Notwithstanding all that, we have the right and the the entry to Hong Kong of democratically elected remit to scrutinise the work of the FCO throughout the representatives and hampering our ability to scrutinise world, which, of course, we do. This snub by the Chinese our own Government’s actions, as is our role as the Government and the confrontational manner with which Foreign Affairs Committee. It is very important to they have conducted themselves is an insult not only to emphasise, as others have, that we are totally separate the Committee, but to the whole House. We cannot from Government. I think that is sometimes misunderstood accept it, especially from a Government with whom we by some foreign Governments, and certainly by the have friendly and mutually beneficial relations. The Chinese Government. We do not take orders from our FCO has pointed to the visit of the Chinese premier in 181 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 182 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) [Sandra Osborne] Article 3(4) states: “The chief executive will be appointed by the Central People’s June as an example of the positive trend in UK-China Government on the basis of the results of elections or consultations relations, but it is fundamental to our democratic system to be held locally.” that we reserve the right to criticise our friends, and that That is not the strongest wording in the world, but it is should not have come as a surprise to the Chinese repeated in the basic law that was also implemented by Government. the joint agreement. Article 3(12) goes on to state that Mr Speaker, I hope you will be able to find it in your those policies would power to draw to the attention of the Chinese Government “remain unchanged for 50 years.” the role of Back-Bench MPs and the House’s disapproval We are clearly within that time scale, so the British of what has happened. If in refusing us entry to Hong Parliament has a perfectly legitimate right to look at Kong it was their intention to shut us up, they have how the basic law and joint agreement are being interpreted achieved the exact opposite and shown to the whole in practice in Hong Kong, particularly in the light of world what their agenda is for Hong Kong in a way we the Beijing Government’s announcements in August. will not be able to achieve in our report. However, we have postponed, not cancelled, our visit, so I look The second reason it is wrong to criticise the Foreign forward to the Committee engaging with all parties in Affairs Committee is that we are all party to the United Hong Kong in due course. Nations universal declaration of human rights, which affirms that human rights—from Iran to Colombia and from China to Britain itself—are inalienable for all 2.12 pm members of the human family. It is legitimate for any Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): It is a pleasure member of the United Nations to look at, comment on to follow the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock and take an interest in the conduct of human rights (Sandra Osborne) and my parliamentary neighbour, my worldwide, and no Parliament or democratic assembly hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham), anywhere in the world should feel inhibited from doing who made a typically well-informed and moving speech. so. It is common for this Parliament to comment on human rights in a variety of countries. Indeed, the I will start on a slightly sober note with a touch of Government publish an annual human rights report, in realism. We in this Parliament are obviously not in a which they comment on human rights in many countries very strong position to influence events in Hong Kong. around the world. Nevertheless, it is absolutely right that we should support human rights and democracy for the people of Hong As Lenin once said, what is to be done? First, we have Kong and support the right hon. Member for Croydon to be clear that the Foreign Affairs Committee should South (Sir Richard Ottaway) and his Committee in continue to highlight the issues raised by events in stating very clearly that the accusation of unjustified Hong Kong, to investigate them thoroughly and to meddling in the internal affairs of China is not justified. draw reasonable conclusions without fear of intimidation. Indeed, it is not justified either to try to inhibit the work We need to be clear that everyone in this Parliament of the all-party group on China, chaired by my hon. supports its right to do that and encourages it to continue Friend the Member for Gloucester. its inquiry. Secondly, it is important that the British Government Richard Graham: My hon. Friend is being generous, continue to raise concerns about China’s interpretation both in what he says and in giving way, but I want to of the basic law and the joint declaration, and in doing make a tiny point. He said that we may not have much so draw on the expertise of the Foreign Affairs Committee influence over Hong Kong, but the whole point of this and its eventual report. debate, of course, is that we are not trying to influence Thirdly, this country needs to adopt a deeper and Hong Kong. We are trying to discuss the issues, but we more sophisticated policy towards China. Parliament are not trying to interfere, meddle, influence or anything and Government have tended to address China as if the else. only important thing we want it to do is buy and sell more widgets. The view has been that trade and capital Martin Horwood: I understand my hon. Friend’s investment are important, but almost to the exclusion point and I will come back to it. There is an argument of other considerations, and many hon. Members have for us to comment on universal human rights and reinforced the point that that is not the case. Trade and thereby try to influence their conduct throughout the capital investment are important, but policies have to be world. To that extent, I think we are trying to influence wider and more sophisticated than that. events, but my hon. Friend is right to say that the focus Part of that policy has to be an understanding from of this debate is on, in a sense, the opposite situation, our side of China, its sensitivities and history, and the which is the Chinese Government’s unjustified attempt progress it has made. That means acknowledging that to curtail a parliamentary inquiry. It is true that we are our shared history with China has not been particularly not seeking in this debate to change anything in Hong glorious on the British side on many occasions. We have Kong immediately. to acknowledge that our role as a colonial power in The accusation of unjustified interference is wrong events such as the opium wars was, in retrospect, disgraceful. on two counts. First, as many hon. and right hon. We have undervalued contributions such as that of the Members have pointed out, we are party to an international 96,000 members of the Chinese Labour Corps during agreement—the 1984 joint declaration—which refers in the first world war. They behaved with complete heroism article 3(12) to the and lost thousands of their number, but they were “basic policies of the People’s Republic of China regarding Hong treated pretty disgracefully at the time and, equally Kong”. disgracefully, their heroism and contribution to this 183 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 184 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) country during the first world war have been neglected. It has been a hard-fought and hard-won right in countries A broad-based campaign is seeking to rectify that omission all over the world, and we should certainly try to defend and obtain a memorial in this country to the Chinese it in Hong Kong. Labour Corps. I hope that will attract Government I was making the point that the free countries of the support. world risk being subject to a kind of divide-and-rule We have to acknowledge our own failure to deliver approach by the Chinese, with the Chinese Government democracy in Hong Kong. We were the administrators using the rather intimidating tactics of trying to suppress and rulers of Hong Kong for many years, and we never inquiries and to inhibit activities, even those of all-party delivered a chief executive who was elected by the groups that are nothing to do with the British Government people of Hong Kong without interference. We appointed and are not part of this country’s Executive. colonial governors, and I am sure that some of them Part of the relationship building has to be to try to were very skilled, talented and caring, but in a sense it communicate to the Chinese Government what we was a benign colonial dictatorship. It is difficult for us understand not just by the rule of law, as has been now to turn around and criticise China on how it mentioned, but by the separation of powers. In democracies behaves towards Hong Kong, and we have to be sensitive such as ours, the Executive, the judiciary and the legislature to that. are completely separate, and they have their own rights against each other, let alone in relation to other countries. Sandra Osborne: It is important to remember that the The democracies of the world must start to develop a Committee has not come to any conclusions about the more sophisticated approach to China, so that we can rights and wrongs of the situation. We are protesting present a united front and say, “It is quite clear that you about being refused access to Hong Kong. are the emerging new superpower of the world, an enormous economic force and probably a growing political Martin Horwood: I completely accept that point, force, and that you have an enormously rich and important which the hon. Lady is right to emphasise. I am talking history and a fabulous civilisation, but that does not in a wider context about how we need a sophisticated give you the right to take smaller countries, democracies approach to China. We should not constantly hector and economies and inhibit them from carrying out their the Chinese for any failings we detect on their side, proper business.” without acknowledging that over the long period of history—their approach is very much to look at the Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Our links with long picture—there have also been historical failings, China should be emphasised. Historically, the first injustices and omissions on our side. We have to be ambassador to Beijing hailed from Ballymoney—his honest and acknowledge that. name was Macartney—but today that link between my A sophisticated policy towards China must include constituency and Hong Kong continues through the firmness in the face both of contraventions of human Kowloon Motor Bus Company, with Wrightbus rights on Chinese territory, and of the militarisation manufacturing buses not only for London but for Hong and the sometimes unjustified indulgence of dictatorships Kong. Such economic links should be used as influence, in different parts of the world. That firmness should saying, “Look, we have an economic driver that brings include the way in which the Chinese allow the perpetuation us closer together. Let us not be separated by this of wildlife crime in pursuit of markets for things such as division that is currently preventing Members of Parliament ivory, which the International Fund for Animal Welfare from entering Hong Kong.” has highlighted in the House of Commons only this week. In our pursuit of trade and investment, there is a Martin Horwood: I am happy that the hon. Gentleman risk that not only the UK but democracies all over the has intervened on that point, which emphasises our world will find ourselves divided and perhaps to some strong cultural and human links with Hong Kong and extent ruled by a Chinese foreign policy that seeks to with China as a whole. intimidate smaller democracies and to influence our Countries such as the UK must support democracies discussion of their affairs. in the region, such as Taiwan. The example of Hong Kong is very important to Taiwan’s security and confidence. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It just so happens The language that Beijing is using about Taiwan has that I had an opportunity to speak to a chief superintendent changed subtly in the past year or so. It is talking about from Hong Kong police this week. In our conversation, the problem of Taiwan not being handed down from he confirmed that 6,500 demonstrations take place in generation to generation, as though there ought to be Hong Kong. We are very fond of demonstrations in some conclusion to the perpetual debate about Taiwan’s Northern Ireland, as the hon. Gentleman probably possible independence, its reintegration into the Republic knows. Does he share my concern to ensure that of China or its continuation with its current status. demonstrations commemorating workers’ rights and That is potentially threatening to the democracy of other events should continue in the way they have until Taiwan, as we must acknowledge. We must understand now, with no bother, actions or friction? that how the one country, two systems approach has worked in Hong Kong is vital, and that that example is Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman makes a very being watched very carefully in Taiwan. important point, which underlines the fact that it is The underlying message of this debate must be that sometimes difficult to deal with the idea of free protest. we have to understand and respect China, but that we It is fine in principle, but in practice even in our own equally want China to understand and respect how our country—even in Northern Ireland—it is sometimes a democracy works, including how we separate powers difficult challenge for policy makers and the authorities. between parliamentary inquiries and the Executive, and The right of free protest is enormously important. how a Select Committee’s right to look into a legitimate 185 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 186 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) [Martin Horwood] the Chinese and Hong Kong authorities. We have made it clear that we have no intention of meddling in China’s area of concern—in terms not only of British foreign internal affairs. That is not why we were elected as policy but of universal human rights—is something parliamentarians. However, we are focused on doing that we can and must defend. our job, which is to scrutinise our Foreign and Commonwealth Office—to scrutinise the work of the 2.26 pm men and women of the FCO and the job that they do for the United Kingdom. Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): May I first thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing this important— Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): The hon. Gentleman is not just important but, quite frankly, unprecedented— referring to the reasons why the Chinese authorities debate to take place? The question that has been asked were not happy about the visit of the Select Committee. is: why should Parliament just allow another nation to They said that it determine the way in which we work on behalf of the “may send the wrong signals to the figures of ‘Occupy Central’”. people we represent? The answer is that we should not just allow that to happen without a proper debate and Can he allay the fears of the Hong Kong authorities by without making sure that our views are known. saying that in visiting and talking to people who are demonstrating, we are not necessarily indicating that we Our Committee agreed on 22 July to hold an inquiry support them? into the United Kingdom’s relations with Hong Kong 30 years after the signing of the joint declaration in 1984. The inquiry’s terms of reference were wide-ranging, Mr Roy: That is exactly what we had hoped to do. We with four pillars. The Committee planned to assess, had hoped to speak to as many people as possible and first, the FCO’s monitoring of the joint declaration via hear as many views as possible. We wanted to ensure its six-monthly reports; secondly, the Government’s that no matter what our inquiry said at the end, it was relationship with the Government of the Hong Kong evidence based. We were not going there to be a cheerleader Special Administrative Region; thirdly, business, trade for Occupy Central, but we were not going there to and cultural links; and fourthly, the work of the British ignore it either. Council. Unfortunately, on Friday last week, we were told The Committee received letters from the Chinese directly that the Chinese Government would not allow ambassador, the Chinese Parliament and Hong Kong us to enter the territory of Hong Kong. As I said earlier, Government representation in London urging us to that is unprecedented. During this Parliament alone, cancel our inquiry. They argued that the inquiry would the Foreign Affairs Committee has visited countries constitute interference in their internal affairs and provide such as Saudi Arabia and Russia, which have had a platform for “unlawful propositions” on democratic internal problems and which would not have been too reform. Indeed, the ambassador warned that our inquiry happy about the Committee doing an inquiry. Regardless would of their opinions, we were allowed to visit, to meet people and to publish our reports. In previous Parliaments, “ultimately harm the interests of Britain.” as we have heard, the Committee has visited China, As our Chairman, the right hon. Member for Croydon including Tibet. We have never been denied entry to any South (Sir Richard Ottaway), so ably said, he informed country. In fact, no Committee of this House has ever the Chinese that we understood the sensitivities involved been denied entry to any country. in our inquiry, but intended to continue with it and with the visit that we planned to make to Hong Kong at the Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): end of the month. The hon. Gentleman says that the Select Committee has The visit would have been an important opportunity been denied entry into Hong Kong. Has the Committee to meet a range of people in Hong Kong—not just considered going ahead with its proposed visit and politicians or those at the top of the tree, but business being turned away by the Chinese authorities to show people, ordinary working people and, yes, probably the significance of what has taken place? That would student protesters. The students have a point of view, clearly show the international community the contempt and they deserve to have it heard. We would also have with which the Foreign Affairs Committee is being spoken to the people in our hotel and the people we met treated. What hope can the demonstrators have of how in the street. We were not hoping to have some high-level, they will be treated by those same authorities? closed-door discussion. The Chinese Government have all but accused us of Mr Roy: There is an argument for doing that. providing support and a platform for the protesters. Unfortunately, the Committee would not be allowed to That is not what the inquiry is about and it is not what board the flight in London, because it is against the law our visit would have been about. Unfortunately, that is for somebody to take a flight to somewhere they know where it is beginning to head. We had never mentioned they will not gain entry to. Occupy Central. We announced that we were holding the inquiry in July. The announcement about the elections Richard Graham: Does the hon. Gentleman agree in Hong Kong was not made until 31 August. That is that if a select committee of the National People’s when the demonstrations started. Congress wished to visit Britain, it is inconceivable that At every point along the way, we have made it clear we would decline its members a visa? that we want the inquiry to be balanced, objective and, most importantly, evidence based. We want to hear a Mr Roy: Absolutely. Think of the uproar there would range of views and perspectives from all sides, including be if we suddenly said to Chinese parliamentarians, the Chinese and Hong Kong authorities—I repeat, including “You are not coming to this country. You are not 187 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 188 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) coming into this building.” It does not take a huge brain The shameful action by the Government of the People’s to work out the uproar that would result from such a Republic of China to deny the Select Committee the ban if it were the other way around. ability to visit Hong Kong in order to conduct our legitimate business is a demonstration to the entire Sir Richard Ottaway: The hon. Gentleman might be world that China has little respect for freedom, free interested to know that it is my understanding that a speech and democracy. It is a sad state of affairs, which delegation from China is coming to Parliament this will have grave implications for British-Chinese relations week. for a long time to come. I first visited Hong Kong in 1996, when Lord Patten Mr Roy: If they are coming this week, I am sure that I of Barnes was the Governor of the Crown colony. It speak on behalf of the whole House in saying that they was indeed then one of Her Majesty’s Crown colonies. are most welcome to attend Parliament and to have a The people of Hong Kong did not choose to have that full and frank discussion on any subject they wish to status taken from them, of course; that was imposed raise with any politician. upon them without their consent. Two years earlier, in 1982, the people of the Falkland Islands had their right I was talking about areas that we have visited where to freedom and self-determination upheld by Her Majesty’s one would imagine that there could have been problems. Government. Although the circumstances were very Several Members recently returned from the Kurdistan different, it cannot be denied that the people of Hong region of Iraq, which we visited in connection with our Kong were not accorded the same rights. current inquiry into Kurdistan. Like Hong Kong, it is a sub-region within a sovereign country. Kurdistan is Today, 30 years later, the streets of Hong Kong are constitutionally very sensitive for the Iraqi Government, filled with young people who, understandably, demand but the Iraqis were welcoming and helpful. They understood freedom and democracy—basic rights that the People’s that we were travelling there not to build on discord or Republic of China continues to deny them. The Sino-British to start a row, but to do a job on behalf of the people we joint declaration made clear the expectations between represent and ultimately, we hope, to make more people the United Kingdom and the People’s Republic of understand the problems that there are in Iraq and China regarding the sovereignty of Hong Kong and Kurdistan. how it should be governed. I am deeply saddened that over recent weeks and months, the assurances given to The Prime Minister’s spokesperson said yesterday Her Majesty’s Government at that time have been forced that the Prime Minister believed that the decision was into question by Beijing’s actions. mistaken. He said that it served only to Over the past three decades, Britain and China have “amplify concerns about the situation in Hong Kong, rather than enjoyed a growing partnership, in which trade and diminish them.” bilateral relations have been strengthened. China’s behaviour As the Chairman of the Select Committee said so this week is wholly inconsistent with the positive diplomatic eloquently, China’s decision to deny us entry sends a trend that our two nations have observed since 1984. It worrying signal about its direction of travel regarding is nothing short of an outrage that the Foreign Affairs Hong Kong. It is also a worrying signal for the people Committee of this democratic House of Commons, the of Taiwan and the Government of Taipei. We must be mother of Parliaments, should be treated in such a way under no illusion: the people of Taiwan and the by an undemocratic Chinese Government. I am gravely Government of Taipei will be watching this situation concerned about the aggressive and confrontational and asking, “Is this where we could go? Is this what position that China has taken on a matter of such could happen to us?” Who could blame them if they importance. In the 21st century, there is no place for did? such an attitude. It is an unjustified attack not only on I will be grateful if the Minister answers five questions elected British parliamentarians but on transparency when he sums up. First, how do the Government intend and on democracy itself. to respond to this unprecedented ban? Secondly, what What exactly is China trying to hide from us? It is the meetings and conversations have Ministers sought or right of the Committee to carry out an inquiry into held with their counterparts in China in the past five relations with Hong Kong and to formulate its report. days to discuss this issue? Thirdly, has the FCO called in It is beyond question that it is within the gift of the the ambassador? Fourthly, has the United Kingdom’s British Foreign Affairs Committee to examine not only embassy in China protested formally to the Chinese British-Hong Kong relations but adherence to the joint Government about the ban, and if not, why not? Lastly, declaration. As a joint signatory, we must of course what does the Minister think the ban says about China’s have the right to look at whether that agreement is approach to the United Kingdom and the work of being upheld, both in the letter and the spirit of the democratically elected parliamentarians? accord. The decision to ban our Select Committee is wrong Denying the Committee the right to visit Hong Kong and totally undemocratic. It must not go unchallenged. does not close the door on the issue at all, as China may have hoped. In fact, it has brought it to the world’s 2.38 pm attention. The Foreign Affairs Committee will not back down. We still intend to visit Hong Kong, and our Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): I commend my inquiry continues. By its actions, what China has actually right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South achieved is to raise many serious questions in the eyes (Sir Richard Ottaway) for his robust defence of the of this House and the British people—questions that right of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Parliament must now be answered. The British Government must of the United Kingdom to carry out an inquiry into a show no hesitation in demanding an immediate subject that it has every reason and right to examine. response. I ask the Minister whether he will insist that 189 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 190 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) [Andrew Rosindell] Britain cannot and will not be bullied. If China is not prepared to honour the spirit of the 1984 joint declaration, the Chinese ambassador be called to the Foreign Office Britain will have no choice but to conclude that the to explain his Government’s actions. I certainly hope hand of friendship and trust that Margaret Thatcher that he will. held out to China 30 years ago has been betrayed. As many of my colleagues have stated, Britain has no 2.48 pm interest in interfering in the internal politics of China. However, Hong Kong is different. Britain has a duty to Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to the people of Hong Kong, and we must not abandon follow the passionate and robust speech of the hon. them. The United Kingdom owes them an allegiance— Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), which showed many of them served bravely in Her Majesty’s armed the concern among Members of all parties, and all forces, and it is imperative that we do not back down Select Committees, about how the Foreign Affairs from such an important commitment to them. Committee has been treated. All but two members of Today, there are still many former Hong Kong servicemen that Committee have spoken in today’s debate, and I am living in the territory, and they are seeking British sure that others will want to catch your eye, Mr Speaker. citizenship. They are people who fought, and were I wanted to speak after they had had the opportunity prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice, for this country, to express their views, and I am grateful to you for and we should care deeply for their well-being and calling me. status. They are servicemen from the Hong Kong Military I am also grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for granting Service Corps and the Hong Kong Royal Naval Service this Standing Order No. 24 debate to allow the House who did not receive a UK passport following the handover to discuss this matter. I have been in the House for of Hong Kong to China. Those men and their ancestors 27 years, and I know that the standard response of most served British commitments in south-east Asia greatly. occupants of the Chair when right hon. and hon. Members They stood shoulder to shoulder with Britain through ask for such a debate is to say no. You said yes, which two world wars, and in France, Burma, Korea, Malaya, must have come as a surprise to the Chair of the Singapore, Hong Kong and China, and they served the Foreign Affairs Committee. It is the only time this year United Kingdom—King, Queen, empire, Commonwealth that an emergency debate has been granted, and although and country—for all those years. The British Government I had originally planned to come to the Chamber and must surely now recognise that the decision not to give speak on the Second Reading of the Counter-Terrorism all those servicemen a right to British nationality was and Security Bill, I can well understand your desire to unjust and an error of judgment that should be rectified. allow the House to debate the Hong Kong issue, which I had hoped that the Foreign Affairs Committee is urgent and important and should take precedence would be able to meet some of those loyal ex-servicemen over all other activities and debates in the House. Thank while we were in Hong Kong, but alas, that will now not you for allowing the debate. happen. The actions of the Chinese Government have I pay tribute to the Chair of the Foreign Affairs highlighted why Her Majesty’s Government should now Committee, who is normally a quiet, modest individual. be prepared to offer all those Hong Kong ex-servicemen It is rare for him to use the House as a platform to the right to a British passport. I ask the Minister prosecute a case on behalf of his Committee. The last directly whether Her Majesty’s Government will urgently time he did so, as I recall, was over the attempts to close review their policy on that issue. the World Service. He led the debate on that and there was a successful outcome. I hope he will have similar Moreover, I believe that we are at a crossroads. We success, having asked for the present debate. We wait are in a position where serious decisions must be taken. with bated breath to see what the Chinese Government Britain has to decide whether we tolerate and simply decide to do. accept China’s behaviour or whether we demonstrate that we are prepared fundamentally to reconsider what This is an important debate not just for the Foreign until now has been a positive bilateral relationship that Affairs Committee, but for every Committee of the we share with China. House. I hope the Foreign Office will take note of it. I do not think the House understands the huge amount The Home Secretary recently announced that 25,000 of time and effort invested by the Clerks and the Chairs visas would be given free to Chinese nationals. Of of Committees when we decide to travel abroad. I chair course we must strengthen and embolden links between the Home Affairs Committee. By its nature it does not Britain and China, but it is now clear that China has the do much travelling, although we will be going as far as ability to behave in an irrational and confrontational Calais on Friday; I hope very much that we will be manner, so such special arrangements must surely be allowed to enter Calais when we get there. brought into question. Alternatively, China could, even at this stage, draw Mike Gapes: Are you going by lorry? back from the brink, accept that Hong Kong is different and allow the people of that territory the right to make Keith Vaz: No, by Eurostar. their own choices about their own future. It must be A huge amount of time is spent organising such made clear that China cannot take British co-operation travel by a Committee, involving everyone from the for granted. Britain is a strong nation—we have the Clerk of the Committee and the operation manager in sixth-largest economy in the world, and our trade with the Clerks Department to a more senior Clerk, and China is largely one-sided. So we must not be afraid to ending up with the most senior Clerk of all—some of stand firm for our national interests and the interests of the most senior Clerks sit in front of you, Mr Speaker. people who were part of our British family, whom we Then the bid comes back to the Chair because the cost have pledged to support, simply in fear of potential is too high, and the bid has to be re-entered and we have trade repercussions. to change all the arrangements. A huge amount of work 191 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 192 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) must have gone into the bid by the Chair of the Select of such visits is fact-finding. The Committee is going to Committee and it must have taken months to put the find out the facts about what is happening so that arrangements together. To be knocked back at the end members can come back and write their report. That for no good reason is extremely depressing and distressing is what all Select Committees do when we travel. It is for members of the Committee. important that Select Committees travel, even though I want to ensure that we set a precedent today and we are sometimes criticised by the press, and the number that we send out a strong and powerful message, not so of visits and the amount of money spent are publicised. much to the Chinese Government—I am not so arrogant The best way to find out what is happening abroad is to as to believe that the entire Chinese Cabinet is sitting in go there, speak to people and ask them what is happening. Beijing watching the proceedings of the House today—but We were criticised because the Home Affairs Committee to the Foreign Office. That message was put powerfully was conducting an inquiry into drugs and we decided to from either side of the House, most recently by the hon. go to Colombia. One or two of the usual suspects in the Member for Romford. When we arrange these visits, we Press Gallery wanted to know what the Home Affairs always do so with the encouragement and support of Committee was doing in Colombia. We were going to the Foreign Office. We cannot, as Committees of this look at cocaine production and see what the Colombian House, organise a visit to a place such as China, or even Government were doing to try to stop cocaine entering to Calais, without informing the posts abroad. In our Europe. Some 60% of all the cocaine that enters Europe case, in France, we have a first-class ambassador, Peter comes into the United Kingdom. That is why we went, Ricketts, who has organised an incredible programme and our report was so much better for our doing so. in the space of just 10 days. That is all the Foreign Affairs Committee wants to do. I do not know our current ambassador to Beijing, On behalf of my Committee and, I hope, other but I am sure that embassy staff would have put as Committees and other Chairs, I can say that the Chair much effort into the proposed programme of the Foreign of the Foreign Affairs Committee and its members have Affairs Committee. It is not enough for the Government our full support. Even at this late stage, I hope the to say, “Well, this is Parliament, and Parliament is Minister can persuade the Chinese Government, through separate from the Government, and you must do this on the ambassador or by other means, to change their your own.” I am not sure, because I did not read the mind and allow the Committee to visit so that it can press release put out by the Foreign Office, if the word produce a good, fair and balanced report, as the Foreign “regrettable” was used. That would probably be quite Affairs Committee has always done. serious, in the context of the words used by the Foreign Office. It is so long since I have been there that I have 2.57 pm forgotten the hierarchy of words and which term constitutes Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): Thank a condemnation from the British Foreign Office, but to you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to catch your eye in the public it would not seem strong enough. this important debate. I am pleased to follow the right A Select Committee of this House wishes to visit a hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz)—I would country that is a friendly country and that has been almost call him my right hon. Friend; he just happens to visited so many times by Ministers—I think more Ministers be in a different party. have visited China than any other country in the world, We have had a sober and reflective debate and I want apart from India. The Prime Minister has been there to add one or two points. recently, encouraging many, many Chinese students to Like my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew come to this country. We have 80,000 Chinese students Rosindell), I first visited Hong Kong just before the studying in the United Kingdom. The number of handover in 1996. I met Chris Patten, the then Governor, applications from China since the Prime Minister’s visit and his two dogs, and we had a cordial and productive has shot up, whereas the number of applications from meeting. I am chairman of the Conservative Friends of India has gone down. Chinese graduate students make the Chinese and I chair Chinese breakfasts in the House up 25% of all graduates from overseas studying in our and have had frequent high-level meetings with Chinese country. diplomats. I therefore have some insight into the Chinese We want a very clear response from the Foreign character and psyche. Office. I hope the Minister can use his best endeavours I have recently been conducting a quiet campaign to to try to persuade the Chinese Government to change see whether we can align British visas with Schengen their mind. After all, is the Committee going to interfere visas, not in any way weakening the British biometric with the proper running of the Chinese Government? I visa system but aligning the two systems so that a family have looked down the list of members of the Committee. coming from China does not have to undergo two I see no known troublemakers on the list. I see three separate applications. I have been patiently negotiating distinguished knights of the realm among the 11 members. with the Home Secretary over this issue. If we could Even my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South resolve it we would get many more Chinese visitors to (Mike Gapes), who might be considered a troublemaker, this country. is actually a very reasonable man. He was trying to buy The right hon. Member for Leicester East mentioned a slice of cake in the Tea Room earlier on. I persuaded that there were 80,000 Chinese students in this country. him to take a banana so that he would not get diabetes I believe the figure is over 100,000. They represent one and he readily agreed to do so. Members of the Committee of the largest student blocs from any country. That are all Members who would want to make a positive shows how welcoming we are to Chinese students in this contribution through their visit. country. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the number Select Committee visits are not about taking the flag of Chinese post-graduates in the UK. Some of those and planting it in the middle of the biggest piazza in students are at the university in my constituency, the Hong Kong. That is not what they are about. The aim Royal Agricultural university. The principal says that he 193 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 194 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) [Geoffrey Clifton-Brown] It is unfortunate that we have to debate this situation, following the news that the Foreign Affairs Committee likes Chinese students because not only do they pay will not be granted entry to Hong Kong. As I said, I well, but they work hard and teach his other students visited Hong Kong recently and paid visits to Mong how to work. There is a lot of synergy. Kok. I walked down Nathan road where I saw relatively At the time of the handover I discovered that the wise few tents and protesters, and numbers were beginning negotiations between Deng Xiaoping and Margaret to dwindle. Whether by coincidence or not, the situation Thatcher in 1984 recognised a number of things, including seems to have flared up again in the last few days in that the way of life in Hong Kong should broadly be conjunction with the proposed Foreign Affairs Committee preserved for the next 50 years. The Chinese and the visit. National People’s Congress adopted their own system Demonstrations have throughout been largely peaceful of Basic Law, and my right hon. Friend the Chair of the and without interference from the Hong Kong or Chinese Foreign Affairs Committee cited the most important authorities, and it is a tribute to both sides that they article, article 45. It is worth repeating that because it is have managed to keep the protests within peaceful the Chinese Government’s Basic Law—they adopted it, bounds. I absolutely understand the aims and aspirations not us, and it states: of the demonstrators. My neighbour and hon. Friend “The ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief Executive by the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) secured universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative a debate on Hong Kong in Westminster Hall the other nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures.” day, in which I outlined the disparity between those in That was the Chinese Government’s own process. Hong Kong who have, and those who have not. People Since then, there has been progress in Hong Kong. I are finding it difficult to get on the housing ladder or visited just a fortnight ago, and I walked down Nathan get decent jobs, and in some cases it is difficult to get a road and saw the protesters. I have been there many decent education. The authorities in Hong Kong need times since 1996, and each time I cannot help marvelling to address those issues. It is not that Hong Kong is not at its progress. It is an amazingly dynamic place. Progress dynamic or successful economically, it is that it is not has been made on the democratic front with the election benefiting everybody. There is a class—particularly some of Legislative Council members and there is now the of the younger people—who are being left behind, and aspiration to elect the new chief executive by universal that is leading to demonstrations. People want a greater suffrage, going from a nomination committee first of say in the way Hong Kong is run. 400 people, then 800, and now 1,200. The process is Wanting to ensure that relations between this going in the right direction. country and China were not damaged, I met high-level Hong Kong is an important national asset for this representatives from the Chinese embassy in Parliament country, and others, and the links between the economies last week. I tried hard to convey to them a number of and people of Hong Kong and the UK are huge. Some things, including that we have a separation of powers in 40% of British investment in Asia goes directly to Hong this country, that right hon. and hon. Members of the Kong. That was just under £36 billion at the end of House are representatives of the people and able to do 2012, and there was £7 billion of trade with Hong Kong exactly what they like and can form Committees to last year. As I know from my discussions with them, investigate matters around the world, and that my right British companies are always welcome in Hong Kong hon. Friend’s Foreign Affairs Committee is entitled to and it is a fantastic place to do business. Indeed, it is investigate any matter in which the British Government reckoned to be the second easiest place to do business, have an interest, including Hong Kong. whereas this country is in 8th place. One reason for that I think I failed in that part of my discussions. It is is that Hong Kong has a system of low bureaucracy, hard for those in a Government run by a communist low taxation and an independent judiciary based on system, who say to representatives in the Communist English law. Around 130 British companies have regional party, “You will not do that”, to understand that Members bases in Hong Kong, and many countries around the of Her Majesty’s Government—I welcome the Minister world see it through that light. Hong Kong is the to his place—cannot simply say to a Committee or economic jewel in China’s crown, and it is in China’s Member of the House, “You will not do this; you will interest to ensure that it continues to prosper. Large do that.” businesses and capital are very portable in the 21st century and could easily move to other centres such as Singapore Richard Graham: On that point, has my hon. Friend if financiers and other businessmen feel that the governance heard members of the Chinese embassy say, as they of Hong Kong is not going in the right direction. The have said to me, that ultimately the Government decide importance of Hong Kong could diminish, and other what happens in Parliament, in Committees and all-party competitors will overtake it. groups, and even in Buckingham palace? Mark Pawsey: My hon. Friend is speaking about the attraction of Hong Kong for young people who want to Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend is right—that set up a business and the business environment there, is exactly what they think and they have conveyed that but in the 1984 declaration Hong Kong was intended to to me. Somehow we must keep on repeating the facts be “one country” with “two systems”. Does my hon. about how this country operates. Friend believe that that principle is exemplified by the actions of the Chinese authorities in this instance? Mr Speaker: Order. Pursuant to what the hon. Gentleman has just said, perhaps it would be helpful for the Chinese Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend makes an to realise, by being told in terms, that the decision to interesting intervention and I will address his point grant this debate is the decision of the Chair, and it is directly in a minute. not interfered with or commented on, or the subject of 195 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 196 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) representations by the Government one way or the other. likely to achieve what we want to achieve in Hong Kong I cannot be clearer than that. I know that, the hon. through good relationships. There has been substantial Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) progress. knows that, the Chair of Foreign Affairs Committee and the House know that, and it is time the Chinese Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con) Government knew it as well. rose— Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I was about to wind up, but Richard Graham: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. my hon. Friend is itching to get in. Would be in order for the Speaker’s Office to contact the Chinese embassy to put it straight on what the Daniel Kawczynski: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s protocols are? work in the international department of the Conservative party, which he has done for a long time. He has told us Mr Speaker: I think I have just done so, but I am what he said to the Chinese delegation, but will he happy to communicate as necessary with the Chinese, if allude to its response? the House would think that helpful. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I am more than happy to do Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I was trying to explain to the so, because I conveyed the response to my right hon. Chinese authorities how our parliamentary system works, Friend the Member for Croydon South. The Chinese and your intervention, Mr Speaker, has more than delegation said in terms that, if the Foreign Affairs amply demonstrated the true situation. Committee were to press ahead with its visit, it would be barred entry. When I went to Hong Kong a fortnight The second point that I tried to explain to senior ago, I did not need a visa. Therefore, the Chinese have Chinese representatives was that if they allowed my to take other action to bar entry, such as stopping my right hon. Friend’s Committee to visit Hong Kong, not right hon. Friend and the Committee from getting on only would the Committee see for itself that the the plane. Bearing that in mind, this is an extremely demonstrations were dwindling, more importantly it serious occurrence. The Chinese made it clear that they would see the huge economic success and dynamism of understood that, because they said that there would be Hong Kong. As the hon. Member for Ilford South harm to British-Sino relations. That is the response I (Mike Gapes) said, there is nothing like seeing with conveyed to my right hon. Friend. He rightly took his one’s own eyes the true situation on the ground, and it is own decision after taking counsel from his Committee— more likely that the Committee’s report would have they decided to press ahead with the visit. That is the been more favourable to Hong Kong. By taking this state of affairs. action, the whole situation has been whipped up and made far worse. I say to the House that we should have quiet diplomacy. It is in everybody’s interest that this country has excellent The third thing I said was that it would be better if we relations with China. That does not mean to say that we could keep the whole matter as low key as possible, try should not criticise China quietly behind the scenes to avoid it getting into the press, and discuss it behind over human rights, animal rights and various aspects the scenes and consider what measures could be taken that we do not like. I would say this to the Chinese: to avoid the problem. please follow the dictum of Deng Xiaoping; please be We are in limbo, but the hon. Member for Ayr, an internationalist country; and please do not start Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) hit the nail on closing in and becoming isolationist—one or two trends the head when she said that the best thing—I suggested have emerged in the past two months since the change this to the Chinese authorities last week—would be for of leadership. After all, Deng Xiaoping said that a flow the visit to be postponed. I know I am slightly at odds of water must be carefully channelled. A former Prime with the House, but I have a hypothetical situation to Minister of this country said we should trust the people. put to it. Suppose the Chinese authorities were about to I say this to the Chinese authorities: let us trust the send a high-level delegation to the UK at the height of people of Hong Kong; let us keep Hong Kong the jewel severe riots in Chinatown, with buildings being burned that it is; and let us include everybody in that growth down. What if we said, “Please don’t send your delegation and increasing prosperity. now, but we are very happy to see you in a month or two”? I believe from my discussions that, if quiet diplomacy 3.13 pm goes on behind the scenes, the Foreign Affairs Committee Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): Thank will be allowed to visit Hong Kong some time next year. you, Mr Speaker, for granting this important debate. As That might be after the end of the inquiry—I do not a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, I congratulate know—but it is important that quiet diplomacy takes our Chairman on the measured and yet resolute manner place. in which he has dealt with the matter. Hon. Members I was heavily involved in the Dalai Lama affair. In the on both sides of the House will acknowledge that. light of that, I have learned—one needs to learn in life. I am almost tail-end Charlie, and time is beginning to Had the Dalai Lama situation been handled very slightly press, so I will dwell on a couple of points that have not differently, our relationship with the Chinese would been covered in the debate. It has been said outside this have been much easier in the past two or three years. place that China does not fully understand how our It is important that we have good relations with the system works, and that the Foreign Affairs Committee Chinese. I believe a member of the royal family will visit is basically a part of the Government. Hon. Members China next year, and we have high-level leadership visits know that that is clearly not the case. If anybody next year both in this country and in China. Rather seriously believes that any member of the Committee is than meeting each other head to head, we are more a mouthpiece for the Government, they have no idea 197 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 198 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) [Mr John Baron] Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): My son is in Hong Kong working as a banker. He tells me pretty how Parliament works. They need take only a cursory much the same thing: that there is concern that the glance at what happens in Parliament to get a more British Government have perhaps been slower than accurate picture. That leads me to suggest that the they might have been. I accept the sensitivities around situation is not a result of negligence, an accident or a this issue, but is it not the case that the demonstrators simple misunderstanding, but a result of a fundamental have behaved in the most extraordinarily restrained wish to ignore the facts. A country with the size, wealth fashion? I believe they have put up huge notices saying, and intelligence of China cannot fail to understand that “We apologise for the inconvenience caused” and cleaned the Foreign Affairs Committee is not the mouthpiece of up all the litter. This is not the sort of demonstration we the Government or involved in the Government in any are accustomed to in the western world. way. Our job is to scrutinise. Some of us take our responsibilities more seriously than others, but there is Mr Baron: Absolutely right—my hon. Friend makes no doubt about the Committee’s role. an excellent point. This is not mob rule. The protests There are repercussions for both parties when a treaty could not be described as any flagrant breach of the is not respected. There is no doubt that the Sino-British law. People are exercising the rights that we ourselves joint declaration is an international agreement. It is a suggested they should have when we signed the Sino-British treaty and was lodged with the UN—if there is any joint declaration. The action they have taken so far has doubt, the treaty number is 23391. This is therefore not been totally within the declaration, yet the Chinese have about interfering or meddling in the internal affairs of transgressed on that agreement. Our response has been China. China very willingly signed up to the agreement very weak indeed. I would like to hear more from the and is a counterparty. Let us be clear about what the Minister on what the British Government will do to agreement says. It mentions Hong Kong having a high make it clear that the Chinese entered the agreement degree of autonomy, and rights, freedoms and lifestyles in good faith, as did the British, and that all rights, remaining unchanged for 50 years. The fact that China responsibilities and freedoms under the law should be has reneged on that treaty—there is no other way of upheld by the Chinese authorities. putting it—has repercussions for both sides, because it Just as China has shot itself in the foot by taking the takes two to sign a treaty. action it has so far—not just with regard to banning the As has been mentioned, the repercussions for the Committee from entering Hong Kong, but in transgressing Chinese will be profound, although perhaps not immediate. on the agreement—we, too, have a downside risk in this What message does the situation send to the world? affair. By not protesting enough—by not holding the What message does it send to Taiwan? If China wants Chinese Government to account and by continuing to Taiwan to return to the fold, this is not the way to go be somewhat weak in our response in defence of the about it. Not only reneging on the treaty but stopping protesters who are operating within the law and the us entering Hong Kong shows weakness rather than terms of the agreement—our reputation will suffer. We strength. China has shot itself in the foot. must not allow that to happen. This House must not There are also repercussions for the UK. I suggest allow it to happen. I look forward to hearing from the that the UK has a moral responsibility to do what it can Minister how the British Government intend to toughen to ensure that China respects its commitments not only up their response to this outrage. to the treaty and the spirit of that treaty, but to everything that follows. That includes allowing access by democratic 3.23 pm bodies to visit Hong Kong. The term “honourable” is an old-fashioned one, but I Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): I echo believe it remains a strong word, as I hope most hon. my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay Members do. We should live our lives by it. We risk (Mr Baron) in thanking you, Mr Speaker, for granting being dishonourable as a country if we do not hold this emergency debate, and in commending the Chairman China to its commitments. We know that the joint of the Foreign Affairs Committee, my right hon. Friend declaration lacks an arbitration clause and that, therefore, the Member for Croydon South (Sir Richard Ottaway), little process or recourse is allowed to check China if it for the way he has behaved throughout this inquiry, transgresses, but there is little doubt what the treaty and as I am sure he will continue to do as it moves tries to achieve. forward. It is clear that China has reneged on the treaty, but we The Chinese Government have said that my Committee have that honourable responsibility to hold China to has no business being in Hong Kong. They are wrong account. We must be clear that there is a danger that the on three counts, the first of which is legal. The United term “dishonourable” could be applied if we are not Kingdom has a treaty obligation to the people of Hong careful. We need to look carefully at the UK Government’s Kong, to which the People’s Republic of China is a response to events so far. Hong Kong 2020, a pro- signatory. We have heard that over and over in this democracy group, has described the UK as “sleeping on debate. This is very much our business. The Sino-British watch” with regard to the weakness of its response to joint declaration of 1984 is lodged with the UN and the Chinese treaty transgressions. Human Rights Watch commits China to maintaining the Hong Kong way of believes our response has been “shamefully weak” so life until 2047. Until the treaty expires, we have a duty far. I put it to my right hon. Friend the Minister of State to ensure that the Chinese are meeting their obligations, that we need to look at how we are responding to both to us as co-signatories and to the people of Hong China’s treaty transgressions. The treaty places obligations Kong as beneficiaries of the joint declaration. China on both sides, and we must do what we can to ensure has shown that it is committed to upholding the that we hold true to our end of the treaty and act in a international order and that it places great emphasis on totally honourable way. the principle of national sovereignty. By undermining a 199 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 200 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) treaty, signed with another sovereign state and registered (Sir Richard Ottaway) for making the application for with the UN, it is undermining the very international the debate under Standing Order No. 24. order to which it claims to belong. As we have heard, the House is united in its concern— Secondly, the Chinese Government are wrong to indeed, its unhappiness—that the Foreign Affairs exclude us, because it is counter-productive to do so. Committee has been prevented from visiting Hong Kong. My Committee is not just looking at the joint declaration, We have also heard that the hon. Member for Gloucester but considering UK-Hong Kong relations as a whole. (Richard Graham) was denied a visa for the all-party The UK and Hong Kong have extremely close ties of group on China’s visit to Shanghai, causing that visit to history, culture and commerce. Other hon. Members be abandoned at short notice too. The hon. Member for have spoken eloquently on the first two, so I will confine The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), among others, my remarks to the third. We are Hong Kong’s eleventh referred to what he described as the Dalai Lama affair, biggest trading partner. More than 560 British companies when there was concern about the Prime Minister being operate there and the region accounts for 35% of all refused a visa to visit China after his meeting with the UK investment in Asia—although my hon. Friend the Dalai Lama. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) Speakers in today’s debate have also raised wider has told me that the figure is 40%. This year, a record concerns. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon number of Hong Kong students—more than 4,000— Valley (Ann Clwyd) highlighted issues relating to press received offers to study at British universities. As a freedom and the repression of journalists, and spoke of major financial centre, we co-operate closely on global the problems she encountered on an earlier visit to financial governance. Of course, we both have a key role China. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South to play in helping China internationalise its currency, (Mike Gapes), a long-serving member of the Select the renminbi. This is a time when we should be deepening Committee, and my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, and strengthening that relationship, because all parties Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) spoke about have so much to gain. We should be over there, meeting their attempts to visitTaiwan. My right hon. Friend the businesses and universities, asking what more we can do Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) to increase our mutual prosperity. Instead, we are here, spoke of his apprehension about the future of Hong debating whether China is ready to be a responsible Kong when he was there at the time of the handover, member of the international community. and the hon. Member for Gloucester told us of his The third reason why the ban is wrong is that it is substantial experience of working in the region and on misguided. The Chinese Government have decided that fostering Sino-British relations, including by setting up they do not like our conclusions before we have even a charity. The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin had a chance to make them. That means that they will Horwood) focused on how we should not let our desire not have a chance to tell their side of the story. It also to trade with China, and the importance of China as a means they will not see a House of Commons Select potential trading partner, deter us from raising other Committee in action. That is a shame, because if the issues, such as human rights, animal welfare and wildlife Chinese saw what we do, they might find our Committee crime. system had a useful application within their own Government. Independent committees, with the power Select Committees are an integral part of our to hold public bodies to account, could go a long way parliamentary democracy. The FAC’s reports are always towards tackling China’s corruption problems, for example. informative and make an invaluable contribution to the Rather than a lecture, however, the inquiry could have scrutiny of the Foreign Office, and as the Chair detailed, been a genuine exchange of ideas. overseas visits are an important party of the Committee’s work in that they offer a greater insight into the countries We in this House have a lot to learn from Hong Kong being visited and the opportunity to foster bilateral and what can be achieved when backing business and relations. As stressed by several speakers, independence getting behind free markets. Hong Kong is one of the is a fundamental feature of Select Committees. It is not best examples we have that Britain has been a force for for the Government or the Opposition to seek to interfere good in the world. We signed the joint declaration with their inquiries or determine with whom they can or because we believe in the rule of law, free speech and should meet—or indeed where they should visit. individual rights. With the important exception of representative democracy, Hong Kong is a living Neither is it for other Governments to intervene or embodiment of our values. For that reason alone, we seek to ward off Committee members. Over the summer, have a clear and legitimate interest in the future of the I was therefore troubled to read the letters from the region. We do not seek to tell the Chinese how to run Hong Kong Government, the Chinese Foreign Affairs their country, but rather to ensure that they are holding Committee and His Excellency the Ambassador explicitly up their side of an international agreement, an agreement requesting that the Committee cease its inquiry and which has been of great benefit to them. If we cannot intimating there would be serious consequences for be there in person, what we can do is send a clear UK-China relations if it did not do so. The ambassador’s message to the people of Hong Kong that this House letter warned that the Committee’s inquiry believes in their aspirations, shares their commitment to “will ultimately harm the interests of Britain”, liberty and the law, and calls on their Government to and the letter from the Chinese equivalent of the FAC safeguard their way of life in line with their international advised Committee members to obligations. “bear in mind the larger picture of China-UK relations”. 3.27 pm We value a strong relationship with China, as several Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): We are grateful speakers have said, and we do not believe that the to you, Mr Speaker, for granting this debate, and independent decisions of the FAC should affect this. It grateful to the right hon. Member for Croydon South is important to emphasise, as others have done, that its 201 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 202 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) [Kerry McCarthy] being upheld, as we do now. The UK’s responsibilities under the joint declaration add to the imperative to do inquiry is in no way intended to interfere in the sovereign so. The Government were right to seek assurances from affairs of China. The operation of “one country, two China regarding the police response over the past few systems” and the implementation of Hong Kong’s Basic months, and we hope that the Minister will continue to Law are matters for the Governments of China and the do so. Special Administrative Region of Hong Kong, as I Parliament also has a particular interest, because we made clear to the Vice-Minister in the International now know that the tear gas was supplied be British Department of the Communist party of China’s Central companies. Indeed, it seems that the Committees on Committee when I met him this morning. The Committee’s Arms Export Controls have elicited a change in policy—or interest in Hong Kong does not signify any latent perhaps just a confused policy—from the Government. imperialist tendencies on the UK’s part. I think we are The Business Secretary wrote to the Chair of the all very aware, when we take an interest in other countries’ Committees on 28 October to confirm that he had affairs, particularly where there is a direct British colonial accepted the advice of the Foreign Secretary that the legacy, that we should avoid giving such an impression. use of tear gas We should also recognise that the joint declaration “was an uncharacteristic response... not indicative of a wider specifically affords Hong Kong pattern of behaviour”. “a high degree of autonomy”. No licences were revoked or suspended. It has been However, it is a matter for the UK, working with China, reported, however, that the Business Secretary told the to ensure the continued success of the Sino-British joint Committees yesterday that he would “urgently seek declaration signed by our two countries 30 years ago, advice” on the issue. It is not clear why it has taken so and it is also a matter for the UK to honour the joint long for him to investigate such a serious matter. We commitments it made to the people of Hong Kong to hope he will take it very seriously indeed. facilitate the handover in 1997. Accordingly, the FAC The Government have a role in offering their support decided to scrutinise the Foreign Office’s implementation for dialogue and calling for the basic freedoms and of and respect for the agreement. rights of all people to be respected and protected. It is The joint declaration states: vital that Hong Kong can preserve these fundamental “Rights and freedoms, including those of the person, of speech, rights, and everyone in the House hopes to see all the of the press, of assembly, of association, of travel, of movement, parties in China and Hong Kong reach agreement on of correspondence, of strike, of choice of occupation, of academic universal suffrage and deliver Hong Kong’s vision for research and of religious belief will be ensured by law in the Hong democracy. That would be the most fitting way to Kong Special Administrative Region.” celebrate 20 years of Hong Kong’s high degree of As a signatory to a binding, international treaty, the autonomy within China in 2017. Well before then, UK must speak up if the agreement is not fully upheld. however, we hope that the FAC will have the opportunity It is deeply troubling to hear that the Chair of the to renew and strengthen its friendly ties with the FAC of Committee was told that China regarded the joint the National People’s Congress and that its members declaration as no longer in force and as having ended at will have the opportunity to visit. the time of the handover. We all noted the contribution from the former Foreign Secretary, who made it clear As the Prime Minister’s official spokesman has said, that this was not the intention when the agreement was the travel ban entered into. “only seeks to amplify concerns about the situation in Hong We have all seen the scenes in Hong Kong: the clashes Kong, rather than diminishing concerns”. between protestors and the Hong Kong police and the We are all disturbed by these latest developments. UK-China authorities’ use of force. The protestors have sought relations are best served and strengthened by a spirit of discussions with the Chinese authorities and a resolution transparency and co-operation, which I hope the Foreign to the different views within Hong Kong on the best Office will be able to promote. It would be hugely form of universal suffrage there. Reports indicate that disappointing if the Committee’s inquiry was allowed their negotiating team has previously been prevented to affect the bilateral relationship between the UK and from travelling to China for talks—another worrying China, and I hope the Minister will use his influence to sign—and it should be noted that the joint declaration bring this matter to a speedy and satisfactory resolution— refers to freedom of travel being ensured by law in the one which allows the Committee to continue its inquiry Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. unimpeded. I hope to visit Hong Kong in the near Following the violence in recent days, one of the student future. leaders has now announced a hunger strike in an attempt to secure talks with the Hong Kong Government. We 3.37 pm believe this situation can only be resolved by dialogue The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office involving the Chinese Government, the Hong Kong (Mr Hugo Swire): I thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting authorities and representatives of the pro-democracy this important debate, which no doubt will be watched campaigners. However, while the response is a matter closely here in London, in Beijing and in Hong Kong. for the Chinese and Hong Kong Governments, it is The fact that this is only the fifth debate under Standing appropriate to raise our concerns. Members would be Order No. 24 to be granted in this Parliament shows the concerned by reports of pepper spray, batons and water seriousness with which the House takes this issue and hoses being used, whether in a city in this country or demonstrates a clear and strongly held concern that anywhere else around the world. stretches right across party lines. As the Opposition, we would also be calling on the I share that concern. The decision to refuse the Government to speak with their overseas counterparts members of the Foreign Affairs Committee—all of if we had concerns that basic human rights were not whom, bar one, have been present this afternoon—entry 203 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 204 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) into Hong Kong as part of their inquiry is wholly of that treaty—a treaty that enshrined a high degree of unjustified, counter-productive and, as the hon. Member autonomy and basic rights and freedoms for the people for Motherwell and Wishaw (Mr Roy) and others reminded of Hong Kong. These are at the heart of Hong Kong’s us, unprecedented. It is also not consistent with the way of life, and it is vital that they are fully upheld. positive trend in UK-China relations over the past year and does not reflect the fact that the UK and China Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): One have considerable shared interests in respect of Hong thing the Minister might like to mention to the Chinese Kong. Nor is it in the spirit of the Sino-British joint ambassador, or for that matter to any Chinese delegation declaration. As my right hon. Friend the Member for on Hong Kong, is that in the early ’70s when China was Croydon South (Sir Richard Ottaway), the Chair of the not popular with the Nixon Administration, Coventry FAC, said, the declaration was signed in good faith in city council made visits to China and started to link up 1984 by the then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher with the country, which resulted in trade deals. and the then Chinese Premier Zhao Ziyang. It is lodged at the United Nations and still remains central to Hong Kong’s rights and freedoms. Mr Swire: Indeed, and there are many Members who have dedicated their parliamentary careers to furthering The Chinese Government have made clear their relations with China. opposition to the FAC inquiry on the basis of what they say is “interference” in China’s internal affairs. I am aware of the efforts of the FAC to establish a constructive Richard Graham: My right hon. Friend mentioned dialogue with the Chinese embassy and the Hong Kong that this year is the 30th anniversary of the signing of Trade Office, and the British Government have repeatedly the joint declaration. What plans may there be to celebrate explained to the Chinese authorities that Parliament is this important event? completely independent of the Government. As the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Mr Swire: I shall look to my hon. Friend for inspiration Osborne) rightly reminded us, the Foreign Affairs Select as we look forward to commemorating the signing in Committee, as a Committee of this House, is also good faith of that declaration. I am sure he will be full rightly completely independent of Government. The of ideas. FAC inquiry scrutinised UK Government policy towards As I said in the Westminster Hall debate on Hong Hong Kong. Indeed, that is clear from its title: “The Kong on 22 October, which my hon. Friend the Member UK’s relations with Hong Kong: 30 years after the Joint for Gloucester (Richard Graham) secured, we strongly Declaration”. It is the Committee’s role in our democracy believe that it is the “autonomy, rights and freedoms” to hold the Government to account. guaranteed by the joint declaration that underpin Hong I have made clear to the Chinese ambassador on Kong’s success. He is right, by the way, to raise the more than one occasion that the Government would regrettable incident recently when he, too, was refused a not and could not try to prevent the Committee’s inquiry visa, this time to China itself, and when he and other or its visit to Hong Kong. There are numerous precedents members of the UK-China Leadership Forum felt they for the FAC visiting Hong Kong—in 1998, 2000 and had no choice but to postpone their to visit Shanghai 2006, each time engaging with the broad range of for talks with the Communist party. We again made it society in a wholly constructive spirit. When I met clear to the Chinese authorities our view that refusing Guo Yezhou, Vice-Minister of the Communist party visas is no kind of solution. It is clearly counter-productive international liaison department yesterday morning, I that these talks have not now taken place. The important repeated my concerns. I pointed out again that barring thing is to pursue dialogue on issues, even where we the Committee from Hong Kong is unjustified and, as disagree. the Prime Minister has said, “counter-productive”. What I would equally emphasise my understanding that the is more, it runs counter to the positive trajectory in our FAC inquiry is focused on the promotion of economic, bilateral relations over the past year, which have witnessed cultural and educational links, too. My hon. Friend the a welcome increase in dialogue, mutual respect and Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma) stressed the understanding. importance of the economy and trading links. Last It is perfectly reasonable for Members of Parliament year, Hong Kong was the UK’s second largest export to want to visit Hong Kong as they scrutinise the market in Asia Pacific, and Hong Kong was the UK’s British Government’s policy and quite properly hold us 12th largest investor. In addition, Hong Kong is an to account over it. Barring them from going simply important factor in the UK’s dynamic relationship with makes it more difficult for them to hear from all sides in mainland China—for instance, as Hong Kong and London order to make an accurate and fair assessment—a point work together to develop the financial service infrastructure well made by my right hon. and learned Friend the for the internationalisation of the renminbi. These links Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), a former are beneficial to the UK, China and Hong Kong, and Foreign Secretary. absolutely deserve the attention of the FAC. In a little over two weeks, we will mark the My hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew 30th anniversary of the Sino-British joint declaration Rosindell) raised the issue of former British servicemen on the question of Hong Kong, which set out arrangements in Hong Kong, and we will look into this, although it is for the transfer of sovereignty over Hong Kong to more properly a matter for the Home Department. It is China under the “one country/two systems” principle. the case, however, that around 250,000 British citizens It is, as its name implies, a joint declaration to which live in Hong Kong, and a further 3.4 million people— both parties made a solemn commitment. As a co-signatory, approximately half the population—hold the status of the United Kingdom has both a legal interest and a British nationals overseas, giving us a clear consular moral obligation in the monitoring and implementation interest. 205 Foreign Affairs Committee 2 DECEMBER 2014 Foreign Affairs Committee 206 (Hong Kong Visit) (Hong Kong Visit) [Mr Swire] Of course, the detailed arrangements for reform are for the people of Hong Kong, and the Governments of For these reasons, I can assure the House and those Hong Kong and the People’s Republic of China to following this debate that the Government have been determine. The United Kingdom has consistently called emphasising the context and importance of the inquiry on all parties to engage in dialogue within the parameters at senior levels through official channels in Beijing, of the August decision by the National People’s Congress. Hong Kong and London. I am grateful for the suggestion We believe that there is scope for a consensus that will made in the press today by the hon. Member for Bristol deliver a meaningful advance for democracy in Hong East (Kerry McCarthy) that the Foreign Office should Kong, consistent with the commitments that have been be engaging with our Chinese counterparts on this made. matter. I can tell her and others who raise it that that is As Premier Li himself has said, we have an precisely what we have been doing: our ambassador in “indispensable” relationship with China. We have many Beijing, our consul-general in Hong Kong, myself and shared interests, from our bilateral trade to our co-operation the Foreign Secretary have done so repeatedly. on global challenges such as Ebola. It is important for that relationship to be conducted with mutual Mr Baron: Will the Minister give way? understanding and respect based on open and honest dialogue, and we will continue our endeavours to that Mr Swire: I must make progress, if my hon. Friend end. will forgive me. 3.49 pm We cannot, of course, ignore the context of political protests in Hong Kong, which have now been going on Sir Richard Ottaway: I am grateful to the House for for over two months. We have publicly welcomed the the debate. Four things have emerged from it. First, the Hong Kong police’s stated commitment to exercise joint declaration is still alive and well, and this Parliament tolerance and restraint. As I have said before, it is will continue to take an interest in it. Secondly, it is the essential that Hong Kong citizens’ fundamental rights view of Parliament that China is the loser in this situation, and freedoms, including of assembly and demonstration, from both a commercial and a strategic point of view. continue to be respected, as guaranteed by the Sino-British Thirdly, although bilateral relations will suffer in the joint declaration. We have consistently called on all short term, we are quite capable of rebuilding them; the sides to ensure that the demonstrations are peaceful and question for the Chinese is, are they? The Foreign in accordance with the law. Affairs Committee remains willing to visit Hong Kong if agreement can be reached. Fourthly, my hon. Friend The issue at the centre of the protests is of course the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Mr Roy) Hong Kong’s democracy, and specifically the arrangements posed a number of questions in his speech, and we for election of the Chief Executive in 2017. We believe should be grateful if the Minister could give us answers that a transition to universal suffrage will safeguard to them in writing. Hong Kong’s future prosperity and stability, in line with the Basic Law and the aspirations of the people of Finally, Mr Speaker, I thank you for your unfailing Hong Kong. That is why we continue to encourage the support for this process. The winner in it is Parliament, Governments of Hong Kong and China to find a and the quality of the debate has justified your decision. consensus that offers a genuine choice to the people of Question put and agreed to. Hong Kong and gives them a real stake in the 2017 Resolved, election for the Chief Executive, and then in due course That this House has considered the ban by China on the for the elections to the Legislative Council in 2020. Foreign Affairs Committee visit to Hong Kong. 207 2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 208

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill have made an additional £130 million available over the Second Reading next two years to help us tackle the increasing terrorist threat. We have replaced control orders, which had been whittled down by the courts, with terrorism prevention 3.50 pm and investigation measures, or TPIMs. We have The Secretary of State for the Home Department strengthened the criteria governing the use of the royal (Mrs ): I beg to move, That the Bill be now prerogative, which allows the Government to cancel read a Second time. British passports to disrupt the travel of people planning The threat that we face from terrorism is serious, and to engage in terrorist-related activity overseas. I have it is growing. The Security Service believes that since the used that enhanced power 29 times since April 2013. attacks on 7 July 2005, about 40 terrorist plots have been disrupted. It is thanks to the hard work and Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): dedication of our security and intelligence services, the The Home Secretary referred to the Government decision police, and our allies overseas that almost all those plots to replace control orders. One of the decisions she made have been thwarted, and countless lives have been saved. when she did that was to remove the relocation powers I am sure that the whole House will want to join me in within control orders. That was a decision of choice, paying tribute to those men and women, whose work so not one forced on her by the courts. This Bill reverses often goes unreported and unrecognised as they strive that judgment to get rid of relocation powers. Will she to keep us safe. now admit that it was a grave error to put the public at Today, however, the threat from terrorism is becoming increased risk as a result of a political deal within the ever-more complex and diverse. Last year we saw the coalition, and that the fact that she is now legislating to first terrorist-related deaths in Great Britain since 2005: reverse those changes shows that it was a grave error of Fusilier Lee Rigby was brutally murdered by Islamist judgment? extremists, and Mohammed Saleem, an 82-year-old Muslim from Birmingham, was stabbed to death by a Mrs May: I would say two things to the right hon. far-right extremist who then tried to bomb mosques in Gentleman. First, as I have just been outlining, we face Walsall, Wolverhampton and Tipton. today a different threat background from that we faced ISIL and its western fighters represent a clear danger. in recent years. Also, if he looks carefully at the Bill, he This summer, partly in response to that threat, the will see that we are not simply reintroducing a power of independent joint terrorism analysis centre raised the relocation into the TPIMs. We have taken on board the threat level for international terrorism from “substantial” recommendations of the independent reviewer of counter- to “severe”. That means that JTAC considers a terrorist terrorism legislation, David Anderson QC, who did attack to be “highly likely”. We face the very serious propose the reintroduction of relocation, but who also prospect that British nationals who have fought with proposed a number of other changes to TPIMs, which terrorist groups in Syria and Iraq will seek to radicalise we are introducing, including the raising of the threshold others, or carry out attacks here. We have already seen for the introduction of TPIMs from “reasonable suspicion” the appalling murder of four civilians outside the Jewish to “the balance of probabilities”. Museum in Brussels, and the recent attack on the We have worked hard to make it easier to get rid of Canadian Parliament was a shocking reminder that we undesirable foreign nationals, including terrorists and are all targets for these terrorist organisations and those terror suspects. We have changed the law to make it whom they inspire. clear to the courts that article 8 of the European convention However, ISIL is not the only threat that we face. on human rights, the right to respect for a family life, is There are further threats related to Islamist extremism, qualified and not an absolute right. We have significantly and there are threats from far-right and Northern Ireland- reformed the Prevent pillar of the counter-terrorism related terrorism, among others. Just last week, a report strategy so that it is tackles the ideology behind the from the Intelligence and Security Committee on the threat, and we are working with the internet industry to intelligence relating to the murder of Lee Rigby highlighted remove terrorist material hosted in the UK or overseas. the real, and potentially very dangerous, capability gaps Since December last year, the counter-terrorism internet that exist for the security and intelligence agencies—and referral unit has secured the removal of over 46,000 items when our security and intelligence agencies tell us that that encouraged or glorified acts of terrorism. the threat that we face is now more dangerous than at any time before or since 9/11, we must act. The emergency legislation that Parliament approved in the summer ensured that two important capabilities, We are engaged in a struggle against terrorism which communications data and interception, were not eroded is being fought on many fronts and in many forms, so further. Both of these capabilities are absolutely crucial our response must be comprehensive, coherent and to the investigation of those involved in terrorist activity. effective. Since April 2010, in Great Britain, more than 800 people have been arrested for terrorism-related offences, more than 210 have been charged, and more Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Is the right hon. Lady than 140 have been successfully prosecuted. Only last satisfied that we now have enough interception powers, week, Mohammed and Hamza Nawaz became the first or not? Britons to be jailed for terrorist training in Syria, and we have outlawed groups linked to terrorist attacks in Mrs May: If the hon. Gentleman is referring to the Syria, Iraq and Egypt. power to issue warrants on companies who offer services We have protected the budgets for counter-terrorism in the UK but who are based overseas or the holding of policing and for the security and intelligence agencies, whose data is based overseas, we addressed precisely and, as the Prime Minister announced last week, we that issue in the legislation introduced in the Data 209 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 210

[Mrs May] wider issue, when we came into power, we made two changes to the way in which Prevent operated, and we Retention and Investigatory Powers Act 2014 that this did so for a good reason. First, we ensured that Prevent House put through under emergency powers in the looked not only at violent extremism but at non-violent summer. extremism. Secondly, we saw that in some communities, So we are taking action at home, but we must also work being done on community integration under a have a comprehensive strategy to defeat these extremists Prevent heading was being rejected or arousing suspicion. abroad. This involves using all the resources at our People saw that the work was being done under a disposal: humanitarian efforts to help those displaced counter-terrorism heading and thought that it was about by ISIL’s onslaught—efforts that Britain is already spying on individuals, when it was actually more about leading—and diplomatic efforts to engage the widest community integration. That is why we separated the possible coalition of countries in the region as part of integration work and gave it to the Department for this international effort. Communities and Local Government, which has been undertaking that work. Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I am glad the Home Secretary just mentioned tackling the terrorists’ Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): May I press the Home narrative. Does she have in mind in that respect not only Secretary about the temporary exclusion orders that she taking down extremist postings on the internet, for wants to have the power to exact? They would, in effect, example, but promoting a counter-narrative that exposes result in the exile—albeit short term and temporary—of the fallacies of the terrorist narrative? British citizens, in many cases, to other countries. All history suggests that such action further radicalises Mrs May: I commend my hon. Friend because he has people and makes them more dangerous enemies to this been resolute in promoting this aspect of dealing with country. If we do so without any judicial process, as she terrorism for some time, and he is absolutely right that advocates in the Bill, is there not a real danger that we it is important to promote that counter-narrative, but I will put ourselves in more danger rather than less? think it is also important to do something else: to take a further step back and look at the whole issue of extremism Mrs May: I caution the hon. Gentleman about the more generally. That is why we have been very clear, and terminology that he uses in relation to the power. He the work of the Prime Minister’s extremism taskforce is has used the term “exile”, but the proposal is not about very clear, that we need to introduce an extremism saying that people cannot return. It is possible for strategy, and the Home Office is currently leading on people to return, but they will return on the basis that that. It will be a cross-Government piece of work, but we have set out in the Bill. Their return will be managed the Home Office is leading on that and the strategy is and we will have some control over it. being developed. In response to an earlier intervention, I said that the change that we were making to the threshold for TPIMs Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The Home Secretary was from “reasonable suspicion” to “the balance of is right to say that progress has been made during the probabilities”. The change is actually from “reasonable past year, but will she help me on one point? Where a belief” to “the balance of probabilities”. I apologise to British citizen has been found to be involved in terrorist- the House for having given the wrong impression about related activities in a foreign country, is it right that we that. will no longer seek their return to this country, and that they will have to be punished and dealt with abroad? Aside from the diplomatic efforts that we must make and the work we must do with those in the region, I Mrs May: No. Under the temporary exclusion power have always been clear that we would keep our terrorism in the Bill, when someone who has been involved in laws and capabilities under review. As the House knows, terrorist-related activities—that will be considered on a the first and most important duty of Government is the case-by-case basis—returns home to the UK, that will protection and security of their citizens. As my right happen on what I would describe as our terms. In other hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear to the House words, that return will be managed so that appropriate on 1 September, we must ensure that our law enforcement action can be taken here in the United Kingdom. and intelligence agencies have the powers that they need to keep us safe. The Bill will strengthen our existing Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): The Home powers so that we can disrupt people’s ability to travel Secretary has just said that we need a counter-extremism abroad to fight, as well as their ability to return to the strategy. May I ask her when that might be available? I country. It will enhance our ability to monitor and remind her that the Department for Communities and control the actions of those in the UK who pose a Local Government was charged with producing just threat and it will help to combat the underlying ideology such a strategy three years ago, but it has not done so. that feeds, supports and sanctions terrorism. My big concern about the Bill is that it appears to have Part 1 of the Bill will provide the police and MI5 with a gaping hole at its centre. We have a lot about action on two new powers that will significantly enhance their individuals who are radicalised, but it has little to say ability to restrict the travel of those suspected of seeking about countering the narrative and countering extremism to engage in terrorism-related activity overseas. First, it in general. will provide the police, or a designated Border Force officer under their direction, with the power to seize a Mrs May: As I have indicated, the Home Office is passport at ports. That will allow them to disrupt the leading on the extremism strategy. We will be working travel of individuals, and give operational agencies on that, but the right hon. Lady should not expect to see the time to investigate and assess whether long-term anything published before the end of the year. On the disruptive action should be taken, on a case-by-case 211 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 212 basis. Such action could be taken through, for example, Mrs May: They are not de facto stateless. It is open to criminal prosecution; the exercise of the royal prerogative somebody to return, but the proposal is that they would to refuse or cancel a passport; a TPIM; deprivation of be returning on our basis, under documents that would be citizenship; or deportation. The use of this power will issued by the Government, and therefore we would be be properly safeguarded through a range of measures, aware of their return, be able to manage that return including the need for a senior officer’s approval; an and, as I have indicated, take appropriate action when additional check by a more senior officer independent they return to the UK. So this is not rendering people of the investigation after 72 hours; an initial retention stateless. period of 14 days for the passport; and a court review of the ongoing need to retain a passport, where a judge Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): I understand can allow more time for the police to continue their the system that my right hon. Friend is putting in place investigation—up to 30 days. There will also be a statutory of managed return, but what is not clear in the Bill is code of practice for officers on how to exercise the the system that will be present to enable that managed power, and we intend to publish this code for consultation return requirement to be challenged. I wonder whether shortly. she can help the House on that point. It seems to me Secondly, the Bill will create a power to issue temporary that there must be a mechanism by which a person who exclusion orders, to which I have already referred in is told that they have to return in a particular way can response to interventions. These orders can temporarily challenge it on their return to this country, and do so disrupt the return to the UK of a British citizen suspected expeditiously, if it is not to be an unwarranted interference of involvement in terrorist activity abroad, ensuring with their rights. that when individuals do return, it is done in a manner that we control. This power will cancel an individual’s Mrs May: There will be a form of challenge available travel documents and add them to watch lists, notifying to an individual under judicial review. We will also have the UK if they attempt to travel. Depending on the to notify the individual that action is being taken against individual case, it may also require the individual to them, so that they are aware that the measure is being comply with certain activities once they are back in the put in place. UK. There has been a lot of interest in the nature of this power, as we have seen already this afternoon, but I want to reassure the House that it will not render an Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): On a individual stateless. All those concerned will have the point that was made earlier, if an individual has the right, which their citizenship guarantees, to return to right to challenge how they are managed—I think the the UK. But when they do, it will be on our terms—quite right hon. Lady said that it would be by means of possibly in the company of a police officer. Once they judicial review—can we ensure that they have legal aid are back in the UK, the police will interview them, in to do that? order to explore their activities abroad, and can make them subject to further requirements. We are discussing Mrs May: As the hon. Lady knows, the Government this proposal with other Governments, in order to have made a number of changes to legal aid, and we are agree how it will work best in practice. So far these looking at the position in relation to that particular discussions have been constructive, and this proposal is issue on these new measures. consistent with all our existing international legal obligations. Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): The Home Secretary is being very reasonable to a lot of Members Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) who wish to get in. Let us take the position of someone (Lab): Will the Home Secretary clarify something so subject to one of these orders who finds themselves in that we can understand the implications of the legislation? a friendly country such as Turkey or France. If the What are the circumstances in which she would not Governments of Turkey or France request the British grant a permit to return? Government to take that person back into the United Kingdom without going through the deportation process, Mrs May: These matters will be looked at on a is it not a fact that we would really feel under an case-by-case basis. The point is to be able to manage the obligation to take back such a person? return of individuals who have been involved in terrorist- related activity abroad, and we are discussing how the Mrs May: If someone were in a country such as power would be operated practically with a number of France or Turkey, and the Government of that country other Governments, as I have said. The point is to requested us to take back the individual, it would be ensure that when somebody returns, they do so under possible in those circumstances for us to act in exactly control and on our terms. the way that we are proposing in the Bill. I am talking about managing the return of that individual. For example, Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): I they might be accompanied by a police officer who confess that I am by no means convinced of the legality would go out to bring them back into the UK, and of what is being suggested under temporary exclusion various actions might be taken on their return. There orders, which will, no doubt, be known in due course as might be an interview with the police, the introduction TEOs, given our enthusiasm for acronyms. What is the of a TPIM notice or a requirement to go on a Prevent position of someone who declines to accept conditions programme. Those sorts of measures could be judged of return and who is not subject to deportation by the on a case-by-case basis. country in which they temporarily finds themselves? Are they not de facto stateless in such circumstances? Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con) rose— 213 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 214

Mrs May: I will give way one further time, and then going to be relocated 205 miles away it has to be a I will move on to part 2 of the Bill. matter for agreement. I do not understand the logic in that provision at all. Richard Fuller: As someone who wants to protect civil liberties in this country, may I warmly welcome this Mrs May: We looked carefully at the proposals made measure from the Home Secretary? There are many in by David Anderson and I believe he suggested that my constituency who would like to see people in this there should be a geographical limit for the relocation. situation given a one-way ticket and not allowed back Part 3 seeks to amend the Data Retention and into the country, so she has found a balance. Does she Investigatory Powers Act 2014 to help us identify who not think that one benefit of this piece of legislation is in the real world is using an internet protocol, or IP, that it empowers mothers and fathers of impressionable address at a given point in time. Changes in how service teenagers to have a clear conversation with them about providers build their networks, made to enable them to the consequences of their mind being warped by people cope with the increased demand for their services, mean on the internet trying to induce them to acts of terrorism that these identifiers are often shared between a great overseas? number of users. Companies generally have no business purpose for keeping a log of who used each address at a Mrs May: My hon. Friend makes an interesting given point in time, which means that it is often not point. That is part of the process of trying to disrupt possible for law enforcement agencies to identify who people from travelling to Syria and Iraq or from being sent or received a message. The provisions will allow us active with terrorist groups. We want to get the message to require the key UK companies to retain the necessary across to young people that if they want to help people information to enable them to identify the users of their in Syria there are better ways of doing it than crossing services. That will provide vital additional capability to into the country. They can, for example, assist the law enforcement in investigating a broad range of serious humanitarian efforts in the UK to support refugees crime, including terrorism. from Syria, which can be of genuine support to people in Syria. In recent weeks, I have met some very impressive The Bill deals only with limited fields of data relating women from Muslim communities around the United to a specific technical problem. Without the full package Kingdom. They have been working with young people of data types included in the draft Communications and their families, developing a number of programmes, Data Bill, published in 2012, there will still be gaps in which relay the message, “Don’t go to Syria.” The law enforcement and intelligence agencies’ capabilities. #MakingAStand campaign and the work that is being For example, the child exploitation and online protection done by the charity FAST are about helping families to command in the NCA might still struggle to identify ensure that young people get the message that they those who have been accessing servers hosting illegal should not be going over to Syria. images of child sex abuse. That is an issue to which Parliament will need to return after the general election, Part 2 of the Bill relates to TPIMs. It gives effect subject to the outcome of David Anderson’s statutory to the recommendations of David Anderson, QC, the review of investigatory powers. independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, in his most recent report on TPIMs. The changes to the Terrorism Part 4 contains measures on aviation, shipping and Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011 will rail security. They will help us to stop terrorists and provide the police and MI5 with valuable new capabilities. those involved or suspected of being involved in terrorism- That includes allowing TPIM subjects to be relocated related activity from travelling to and from the UK, and to different parts of the country. We will also be raising will mitigate the threat of an attack on those transport the legal test for imposing a TPIM— services. The proposals cover three main areas. First, they will require carriers to be able to receive instructions not to carry a specific passenger in a way that is compatible Hazel Blears rose— with our border systems. Secondly, they will establish a new framework for authority to carry schemes, commonly Mrs May: May I make a little more progress and then known as our no-fly arrangements, that will extend to give way to the right hon. Lady? new categories of British nationals and apply to outbound travel. Finally, they will enhance our ability to require Hazel Blears: It is on that point. carriers operating to the UK to undertake specified security measures, including the screening of passengers. Mrs May: Will the right hon. Lady at least allow me Carriers that will not comply with security requirements to get to the end of the paragraph before I give way? will not be allowed to operate into the UK. The changes to the TPIM Act include allowing TPIM subjects to be relocated, but we will also be raising the Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I am legal test, as I said earlier in response to an intervention, puzzled that the Home Secretary has just said that and narrowing the definition of terrorism-related activity carriers will be required to provide some sort of security in relation to this power. David Anderson is clear that screening. How will they do that? Would that not involve there is no need to turn the clock back to the previous additional cost? Government’s control orders regime, and I agree with him. Mrs May: Obviously, carriers in most parts of the world are already required to carry out some security Hazel Blears: I have a simple inquiry, as I genuinely screening. From time to time, we say that if someone is do not understand why the clause as drafted states that going to fly into the United Kingdom we wish them to if someone is going to be relocated 190 miles away that adopt additional methods of security screening. At the can be imposed by the Home Secretary, but if they are moment, this is done on a voluntary basis, but the Bill 215 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 216 takes that and puts it into statute, which will enable us those institutions that are failing to comply with the to stop someone from flying into the UK if they do not statutory duty that that particular power has been put adopt the security procedures. into the Bill. Part 5 addresses the issue of those at serious risk of Alongside that statutory requirement in relation to succumbing to radicalisation and terrorism. We propose Prevent, the Bill will also provide a statutory basis for a new statutory duty on certain bodies, including local the existing programmes for those at risk of being authorities, the police, prisons, probation services, schools, drawn into terrorism, known as Channel in England colleges and universities, including in the private sector, and Wales. That will enshrine existing good practice to have due regard to the need to prevent people from and help to ensure consistency across all local areas. being drawn into terrorism. That will ensure that Prevent strategy activity is consistent across the country and in Pete Wishart ( and North Perthshire) (SNP): As all those bodies whose staff work on the front line with the Home Secretary knows, the Prevent strategy falls those at risk from radicalisation. The detail of how the within the competence of Scottish Ministers under the duty should be fulfilled will be set out in statutory devolved settlement. Scottish Ministers have their own guidance, which we will publish shortly. priorities and agenda when it comes to delivering those I hope that the House will find it helpful if I take the measures in Scotland. I know that there have been opportunity to clarify one specific issue that the guidance discussions with Home Office Ministers about excluding will address, which is the need to create an appropriate Scotland from that power, so that we can have the and sensible balance between the need to prevent people opportunity to consult our public bodies properly. Is from being drawn into terrorism and the existing duty she open to that type of approach, so that Scotland on universities to promote freedom of speech. I believe could be included in the measures later, when we have that our universities, with their commitment to free had an opportunity to work out what it would actually speech and the advancement of knowledge, represent mean for our public bodies and their responsibilities? one of our most important safeguards against extremist views and ideologies. There is no contradiction between Mrs May: I point out to the hon. Gentleman that promoting freedom of speech and taking account of counter-terrorism is obviously a reserved matter. He the interests and well-being of students, staff and the might like to know that his point relates to the very next wider community. That is already subject to guidance paragraph I was about to read. It is the Government’s issued by both Universities UK and the National Union hope and intention that these provisions should also of Students. We must ensure that poisonous, divisive apply to Scotland. We are consulting Ministers in the ideologies are not allowed to promulgate. devolved Administrations about the practical implications of our proposals, and obviously those discussions will Yasmin Qureshi: The right hon. Lady mentioned continue with the Scottish Government. universities and other institutions being sent statutory Part 6 includes amendments to two provisions in the guidelines on Prevent. Why do the guidelines have to be Terrorism Act 2000. First, it will put it beyond doubt in statutory format? Why cannot they just be sent, that UK insurance firms cannot reimburse payments knowing that any responsible institution will follow made to terrorists in response to ransom demands. To them without their having to have legal force behind put that in context, the UN estimates that ransom them? payments raised up to £28 million for ISIL over the past 12 months alone. We need to avoid any uncertainty on that issue. Mrs May: The purpose of putting Prevent on a statutory basis is twofold. First, the statutory duty will Secondly, the Bill will clarify our counter-terrorism now relate to a number of front-line institutions, as I port and border controls in relation to where goods have said, such as local authorities and universities. may be examined and the examination of goods comprising There is already some guidance that Universities UK items of post. That is an important part of our counter- and the National Union of Students apply to universities, terrorism port and border controls and the disruption as I have indicated. However, I believe it is important to of those engaged in terrorism. We must ensure that the ensure that there is that statutory duty on bodies such law is clear and that the police can fulfil their duties. as universities, and the Bill allows the Secretary of State The powers in the Bill are essential, but they should to make a direction to one of the bodies covered by that be used only where it is necessary and proportionate to power if they are failing to exercise their statutory duty. do so. Their use will be stringently safeguarded, including through suitable legal thresholds and judicial oversight Yvette Cooper: Will the Home Secretary clarify what of certain measures. Part 7 of the Bill will also allow for she means by that? Could she envisage a Home Secretary the creation of a privacy and civil liberties board to making a direction in order to tell a university or support the important work of David Anderson, QC, institution not to allow somebody to speak? the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. Finally, the Bill includes a provision to ensure that Mrs May: That is not the intention of the duty; its challenges to refusals of applications for British overseas intention is to ensure that the university or institution territories citizenship can be heard before the Special has in place a policy on matters relating to extremism. Immigration Appeals Commission, so that sensitive For example, they might have a general policy that they material can be protected. This simply addresses an apply in relation to extremist speakers coming to their anomaly in existing legislation. institution. The purpose of the power to make a direction I have stressed the urgency and importance of this in the Bill is to ensure that they are doing something legislation. This is not a knee-jerk reaction but a considered, like that, taking their statutory duty seriously. It is for targeted approach that ensure that our law enforcement 217 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 218

[Mrs May] We will support this Bill because it responds to new and changing threats and also corrects some past mistakes, and intelligence agencies have the powers they need to but we believe that amendments are needed in some respond to the heightened threat to our national security. areas to make the measures more effective or to ensure Substantial work, in consultation with the police and that sufficient checks and balances are in place to MI5, has gone into drafting the clauses. Where the prevent powers being abused and discredited, thus measures impact on those in the private sector or civil undermining the fight against extremism. society, we have consulted with the relevant bodies. Last week’s Intelligence and Security Committee report I am grateful to the shadow Home Secretary for on the murder of Fusilier Lee Rigby provided stark engaging in constructive discussions on the timetable evidence of the serious challenges that our security for the Bill. services and police face in keeping us safe. It is a 24 hours-a-day, 365-days-a-year job, and every decision Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): I commend is loaded with doubt. Today we should pay tribute to the Home Secretary for the measures in this Bill, which their quiet stoicism and heroism. This year alone, the are reasonable measures that accord with our international Metropolitan police has made 270 arrests following obligations. Does she agree, though, that there is a gap counter-terrorism investigations. Along with our as regards communications data? I hope that we will be agencies, it has disrupted several attack plots, including able to include that area in future measures as soon as plots against those whose very job it is to protect our possible, because although the measures she is announcing communities. go some way towards improving national security and meet our national obligations, we must address that That job of protecting us all from terrorism has gap. become increasingly difficult in the face of the growth of ISIL and its barbarous brand of terror. As the Home Mrs May: My hon. Friend is right that we continue Secretary said, the Government believe that about to have a gap in relation to communications data. 500 people have travelled to Syria, with about half Although the Bill introduces the question of IP address having already returned to the UK. However, this problem resolution, it will still be the case that data that previously is not unique to Britain. The United Nations estimates would have been available to our law enforcement agencies that foreign fighters from 80 countries may be in the and security services will not be available in future. I am region, mainly fighting for ISIL. France estimates that very clear that Parliament will have to return to this 900 French nationals are fighting in the regions. Belgium, issue after the general election. Sweden, Denmark and Finland have all seen significant numbers of their citizens go to fight. Many countries The need to introduce this legislation today is pressing, across Europe are introducing new policies and legislation but I do not propose to rush it through Parliament in a to address the problem and we should work with them matter of days or weeks. Parliament must have adequate as they do so. We have also seen, through the awful time to consider these measures. Expediting the Bill’s propaganda videos, what people have become involved passage over the next couple of months will enable that in, including beheadings, kidnaps and brutalising whole to take place, while allowing us to seek approval for communities in Syria and Iraq. crucial secondary legislation prior to the election. This will ensure that proper scrutiny can take place, and that Of course, a foreign policy response is required to the police and agencies are able to use these new capabilities defeat ISIL in the region and to strengthen the Governments without undue delay. who will have to fight them. A humanitarian response is also needed to try to save the lives of communities in We are in the midst of a generational struggle against the path—or, worse, the wake—of ISIL’s advance. The a deadly terrorist ideology. That is why we have brought Home Secretary’s policy of taking only 90 of the most this legislation forward at the earliest opportunity, and vulnerable refugees from Syria, in parallel with the UN we will seek its swift passage through Parliament. We programme, is shameful. Other countries are doing far must ensure that the police and the security and intelligence more, and she was urged to do far more as well. She has agencies have all the legal powers and capabilities they the opportunity at next week’s Geneva conference to need to stop people travelling to fight in Syria and Iraq, change her approach, and I urge her to do so. to tackle this terrorist threat, and to protect all the law-abiding citizens who believe in keeping the UK an open, free and tolerant nation. That is what this Bill will Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Does not do, and I commend it to the House. the right hon. Lady accept that Britain is one of the leading donors to providing humanitarian relief to Syria, 4.27 pm and will she not celebrate that fact? Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): As the Home Secretary said, it is the responsibility Yvette Cooper: The Government have rightly provided of Government to protect the liberty and the security of a very strong response in the region and support for our people, to protect our communities from extremism those who are fleeing the conflict. Members on both and terror threats, and to protect our liberty and our sides of the House have supported the Government in democratic values so that the terrorists and extremists doing so and call on them to continue to do so. Twelve do not win. At a time when the terror threat has grown, months ago, however, Members on both sides of the more action is needed to make sure that the police, the House also called on the Government to do more to security agencies and other organisations have the powers help the most vulnerable Syrian refugees who struggle that they need to protect us, but also to make sure that to cope in the camps, and I do not believe that the we have sensible safeguards in place—the right kinds of Government are doing what they undertook to do checks and balances to prevent abuse. 12 months ago. 219 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 220

Chris Bryant: There are now literally millions of could be done even without legislation to improve the refugees in Lebanon and children are being born there Prevent programme, and if the Government do not do who are effectively stateless. That is not a recipe for a their bit, all the legislation in the world will not make peaceful middle east, is it? the programme effective.

Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend is right to say that the Keith Vaz: Evidence suggests that the biggest pressure huge stresses and strains in the region will have long-term on young jihadists comes not from organisations, but consequences. That is why we need to do our bit with from peer groups. What is missing is that we have not our humanitarian response and recognise the long-term yet got into the DNA of trying to deal with peer group security consequences both in the region and here in pressure. Does my right hon. Friend not agree that we Britain. should direct more of the funding to such community Let me turn to the Bill’s measures and how they organisations? respond to the challenge we face. More needs to be done to prevent young people from being radicalised or Yvette Cooper: My right hon. Friend makes a very drawn into extremism in the first place. The Home powerful point. We should be honest about the fact that Secretary has said that she wants to strengthen the we do not know the perfect answers. This is a difficult Prevent programme, which we welcome, and we hope area, and different things need to be tried. However, the that putting it on a statutory footing will help do that. current programmes are not addressing two significant She will know, however, that getting the Prevent programme challenges: peer group recruitment, which is clearly right is not simply about legislation. The programme taking place in many areas, and social media, through has been narrowed over the past few years, which has which recruitment and radicalisation are taking place. led to criticism from the Intelligence and Security Much more should be done to address those challenges, Committee, which noted in its report last week and community-led programmes might be considerably more effective than police-led or Government-led “the relatively low priority (and funding) given to Prevent in the programmes in achieving results. CONTEST programme as a whole”. The Committee concluded: Dr Julian Lewis: I applaud the constructive tone of “The scale of the problem”— the right hon. Lady’s remarks so far. May I take her by which it meant the number of people travelling— back to the intervention by the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears)? Most of what is “indicates that the Government’s counter-radicalisation programmes are not working.” being discussed is still at community or even individual level, whereas we believe that something needs to be We know that Prevent support for local community done at national level that is comparable to the efforts programmes has dropped from £17 million to less than made to counter Nazism in the second world war and to £3 million over the past few years. Although the Home counter communism during the cold war. Secretary talked about the promotion of a counter-narrative, the evidence suggests that far less work is being done Yvette Cooper: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that now than a few years ago to promote counter-narratives more needs to be done at the national level. The Bill within communities. introduces a statutory duty on a series of organisations to do more, and those organisations should certainly Hazel Blears: Does my right hon. Friend share my work in partnership to prevent people from being drawn concern that, although many of the Bill’s provisions are into extremism and terrorist activity. Given the points very welcome, including those relating to the panels and made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford putting things on a statutory footing, it is couched in and Eccles (Hazel Blears) about some of the gaps, terms of individuals? It mentions individual referrals particularly in relation to the Department for Communities and individual plans, yet, in essence, challenging the and Local Government, there is a question about whether narrative is a collective responsibility for all of us, not the duty should in fact extend to that Department, simply individuals. rather than simply to local organisations across the country. Yvette Cooper: My right hon. Friend is right. She has In Committee, we will probe the Home Secretary great expertise in looking at the work of the Prevent further on what she intends to do with her power of programme, particularly the community and local work direction. That is still unclear from the Bill, and it is that was being done. This is a concern. The Government unclear what she envisages putting in guidance. She said originally cut the number of local authorities receiving that guidance would be published alongside the Bill, funding through the Prevent programme from 90 to 23. but we have not yet seen it. I do not know whether it has They have subsequently reinstated some of them, but already been published. only four out of the 30 councils that were tasked with delivering Prevent submitted evaluations to the Office Mrs May: I have listened very carefully to what the for Security and Counter-terrorism last year. shadow Home Secretary is saying about the Prevent The Home Secretary has talked many times—we programme. As I said earlier, one of the first things that have pressed her on this—about the fact that she has the Government did when we considered the programme passed some of the Prevent work to the Department for was to decide that it should no longer look simply at Communities and Local Government, but it is of violent extremism, but at non-violent extremism as well. considerable concern to us that there is no evidence that Does what she is saying mean that she agrees with the it is doing significant work on it. The community-led step that we took, and does she therefore accept that the programme to counter radicalisation simply does not previous Labour Government got it wrong in concentrating seem to be strong or effective enough. Much more the Prevent programme only on violent extremism? 221 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 222

Yvette Cooper: It is absolutely right to look at both “A power to relocate subjects away from their home areas violent and non-violent extremism. If the Home Secretary would be of real practical assistance…in distancing subjects from has listened to what my right hon. Friend the Member their associates and reducing the risk of abscond. It would also for Salford and Eccles has said on the issue over many facilitate monitoring, save money and could help restore faith in a TPIM regime that has withered on the vine.” years, she will know that the previous Government’s work was about looking at both violent and non-violent It is not because of the increased terror threat that the extremism and at the process of radicalisation from regime has withered on the vine; it is because the TPIM beginning to end. The whole point of providing counter- regime simply was not effective without the relocation narratives is to tackle non-violent as well as violent orders that it needed. extremism. Pete Wishart: I have not heard from either Front It is unfortunate that the Home Secretary chose to Bencher the two words “civil liberties”. Is it the right narrow the programme in the way she did and handed hon. Lady’s view that the measures we are discussing over community-led Prevent programmes to the today will tilt the balance between civil liberties and Department for Communities and Local Government, security too far towards security and compromise some which simply did not pursue them. The police have very important civil liberties? done very good work, but narrowing Prevent to just a police-led programme means that it has simply not been effective, and there have also been considerable gaps in Yvette Cooper: In fact, I talked about the importance the programme. of protecting both liberty and security when I opened my remarks. We need both in a democracy and it is the On the Secretary of State’s power of direction, there responsibility of Government to protect both. On TPIMs, will questions not only about how she intends to use it, I think that the Government were wrong to remove the but about what safeguards will ensure that she does use relocation powers. They are important and effective, that power inappropriately. and it has been recommended that they should be The next challenge is how to deal with those who restored by the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, have become radicalised and pose a serious threat. whose judgment has proved to be balanced and sensible Wherever possible, those people should clearly be prosecuted on a series of issues. There are other areas where and passed through our courts. We know that there are additional safeguards are needed, and I will come to difficult cases in which that is not possible, but people them shortly. still pose a serious terror threat. It will come as no surprise to the Home Secretary or the House that we Richard Fuller: The right hon. Lady will understand welcome the return of the relocation powers. She told that there is some sensitivity on this issue, given the the House in 2011 that the removal of the relocation rather poor record of the last Labour Government on power was a deliberate and desirable part of TPIMs. protecting civil liberties. For example, we had 90 days’ She said: detention without trial and the imprisonment of children “Forcible relocation will be ended”, for immigration purposes only. Does she at least agree with the Home Secretary’s move to raise the threshold and individuals for when relocation can be imposed from reasonable “will have greater freedom to associate.”—[Official Report, 26 January belief to the balance of probabilities? 2011; Vol. 522, c. 308.] The Home Secretary defended her decision on relocation Yvette Cooper: I do support the proposals, because after Ibrahim Magag absconded in a black cab on they came out of David Anderson’s report about changes Boxing day in 2012 once his relocation order had been to the TPIMs regime. He looked at the evidence and revoked. She said at the time: came up with sensible recommendations. However, I “I am confident in the TPIM package that was available”.—[Official warn the hon. Gentleman against playing party politics Report, 8 January 2013; Vol. 566, c. 165.] on this issue, because that is what got the coalition into trouble in the first place. The reason the coalition She also defended her decision in 2013, when Mohammed removed relocation orders was that it wanted to make Ahmed Mohamed fled in a burqa after his relocation party political points, rather than look at the evidence. order was revoked. That is why it has had to do a U-turn: it has finally had No powers are perfect, but it is significant that no to look at the evidence. I caution him about doing the terror suspect has absconded under a relocation order. same again. The Home Secretary has said in the House that she made those changes because control orders were under Mr McFadden: The Home Secretary said in her speech threat in the courts and TPIMs were not. In fact, both both that we were engaged in a generational struggle the former and current independent reviewer of terrorism and that the security situation had changed markedly in legislation have made it clear that relocation orders the past couple of years, justifying the U-turn that were never under threat in the courts. It was a policy part 2 of the Bill represents. Are those statements not decision that was taken by the Home Secretary and the contradictory? It is true that we are engaged in a coalition. generational struggle. It would be better for the Home The truth is that TPIMs have not worked. Despite Secretary to apologise for the grave error of judgment the increased terror threat, only one is in place at the that put the public at risk than to pretend that the moment and it relates to someone who has left prison. situation has changed radically. TPIMs simply do not contain enough powers to be useful for the agencies or the police, or to be worth the Yvette Cooper: My right hon. Friend is right that the extra effort involved. The independent reviewer of terrorism threat level is the same now as it was when the Home legislation, David Anderson, concluded in his review: Secretary came into office. There have been ongoing 223 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 224 threats to our security and liberty for many years, and it Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend makes a really important was not increased threat that led either Ibrahim Magag point. There are no proper exit checks in place across or Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed to abscond when the country, and we need the staff to be able to do them. their relocation orders were revoked. It was the lack of That is why we have made proposals for 1,000 additional a relocation order and the weakening of the counter- border staff, which is the right thing to do to ensure that terrorism powers. such checks are in place. There should also be checks Counter-terrorism policy is always difficult. There and balances on the power to seize passports. It is will always be things that Governments find challenging, important and necessary, but there should be further and there will be times when they get the balance safeguards to ensure that it cannot be abused. wrong. However, we should look at the evidence together. The next important measure in the Bill is temporary The Home Secretary and the Government failed to exclusion orders. There is a serious problem for the look at the evidence about relocation powers, and they police and the agencies dealing with those returning failed to listen to the advice of the security experts. from conflict, who may have committed awful crimes They have had to do so now not because the security abroad and might pose a threat in Britain. More needs threat has changed but because TPIMs simply did not to be done to address that threat, which was why we work. It is right that they should be strengthened now called for TPIM powers to be strengthened and for the and that powers should be restored. Channel programme to be made compulsory. There should be requirements on people returning, and I There are two other puzzling things about the Home understand the Home Secretary wanting to manage Secretary’s measures on TPIMs. The first relates to the people’s return, but it is still unclear exactly what the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford Government want to achieve through the new powers. and Eccles made about the 200-mile limit: what is the difference between someone being 205 miles away and The Prime Minister has said: someone being 195 miles away? More puzzling is the “We are clear in principle that what we need is a targeted, measure that the Government are introducing to prevent discretionary power to allow us to exclude British nationals from people on a TPIM from having access to a firearm. the UK.”—[Official Report, 1 September 2014; Vol. 585, c. 26.] That seems extremely sensible—we would not want any However, it seems that that is not what the power in the terror suspect to have access to a firearm—but how Bill will do. If someone is served with an order and the could any of them have had such access before? That host country decides to deport them anyway, Britain raises the question whether either the gun licensing will co-operate and they will be returned. There is no regime or the TPIMs regime is considerably weaker power to exclude them. If they apply for a permit than we thought. We hope that some clarity will be to return, the Home Secretary can refuse to grant one provided in Committee on why that measure is needed. only if the suspect does not turn up to an interview. We will clearly support it, but it is a puzzle that existing Presumably, that is an interview in the foreign country; powers are not strong enough to ensure that that sensible otherwise, they would already be home. The suspect restriction is in place. does not have to co-operate with the interview, only to turn up. The next challenge is how to deal with the new and growing problem of British citizens leaving to join the When I asked the Home Secretary under what conflict overseas, where they may become involved in circumstances she would refuse to grant a permit to awful crimes and barbarism, be further radicalised and return, she did not give a clear answer and gave the become a threat to this country. We need new measures impression that even if the suspect did not turn up to to prevent people from going. Removing people’s passports the interview, a permit to return might still be granted. through the royal prerogative is understandably not a It appears, then, that there is still no power to exclude swift process, and sometimes faster action is needed. If them, so this is not the power that the Prime Minister troubled parents ring the police because they are worried said he would introduce. It seems to be described as a that a son or daughter has left to join ISIS and taken temporary exclusion order simply to give the Prime their passport with them, the police need to be able to Minister the headline that he wanted. move quickly. We therefore agree that temporary powers are needed. Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Temporary exclusion orders may be necessary—there are obvious The lack of judicial oversight is a concern. As the Bill dangers in people coming back, having been indoctrinated stands, the police will be able to seize a passport based and wanting to commit crimes. There may be a strong on their own judgment of reasonable suspicion, and possibility of that, but surely judicial oversight is needed there will be no judicial oversight for 14 days. Even so that if the Home Secretary takes such powers, they then, a magistrate will look only at whether the police can be challenged in court. I trust that my right hon. are continuing to investigate, not at whether there was Friend will take the opportunity in Committee to table reasonable suspicion in the first place. The power to appropriate amendments. seize a passport is important, but that means that it is also important that it is not abused. Yvette Cooper: More judicial oversight is needed in this area and we will certainly table amendments. It is Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab): also important to clarify what the powers are intended Does my right hon. Friend believe that the apprehension to achieve. It appears that they are not intended to of passports requires proper border agency staffing, achieve exclusion at all and have a very different intention. which the Home Secretary has cut by 50%? She is now proposing to cut the police by 30,000 in the next period, Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend is right to raise which will make it extremely difficult for any of the such queries. May I add two others that she might want actions set out in the Bill to be carried out. to put to the Home Secretary? The first is what constitutes 225 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 226

[Chris Bryant] Yvette Cooper: In which case perhaps the hon. and learned Member should stop intervening and let me get serving notice on somebody. Presumably this happens on and speak about the amendments. in another country. How is that notice to be served? How will somebody be deemed to be suitable to have Mr Jim Cunningham: One thing that has bedevilled that notice served on them? Secondly, at what point these debates is that neither the Home Secretary nor does the exclusion start? Is it before they get on an anyone else has made it clear which countries are prepared aeroplane or a boat to come to this country, or is it at to co-operate, particularly with Turkey which sends they moment they arrive in this country? Once they are different signals. in this country, what happens to them? Are they effectively deported? Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend makes an important point, and by the time the Bill gets to Committee, the Yvette Cooper: Again, my hon. Friend raises important House needs to know whether there have been discussions questions. The independent reviewer said that the policy with other countries, how those countries will respond, was an announcement in search of a policy. It started and what the level of co-operation will be. with an announcement by the Prime Minister at a press conference. To be fair to the Home Office, it probably My second question concerns what happens if the worked hard to try to turn it into some kind of sensible Home Secretary wants someone to return and be required measure that might achieve something as part of the to co-operate with the Channel programme, but does Government’s counter-terror policy but that could still not want to delay their return. At the moment it appears have the label “temporary exclusion order” attached to that the order must be served and a permit applied for, it in order to keep the Prime Minister happy. The House and then the Home Secretary has to issue a permit, needs to understand exactly what the Home Secretary’s potentially introducing delays during which someone intention now is. This is not a hugely responsible way to might abscond again. Is there any way to place requirements make counter-terror policy or for us all to be able to on someone once they return, without having to go understand whether it gets the balance right between through that further bureaucratic process at the airport? the powers and measures that are needed and the safeguards It appears from the Bill as though the Home Secretary that are needed as well. cannot compel people to go to appointments at the police station or to comply with the Channel programme The Home Secretary has described this as a policy to unless she also introduces bureaucratic delays with the manage return. The intention behind that is sensible, application for a permit at the foreign airport. It would requiring people to co-operate with the police and be helpful to know whether she has the power to allow security agencies and to attend Channel interviews if someone to swiftly board the plane and also to introduce they have been involved with ISIL or have been in the those powers. region. That is important, but there are some practical questions about how the policy will work—first about What are the safeguards to prevent abuse? At the co-operation with other countries, secondly about moment, temporary exclusion orders can be imposed bureaucracy in the process, and thirdly about the safeguards by the Home Secretary on the basis of reasonable and the judicial oversight. suspicion. That could include ongoing requirements for What happens if a country does not want to co-operate? someone to attend regular appointments, or perhaps Have countries such as Turkey said that they will co-operate? even to report daily to the police for two years after Will they immediately deport people? Will they detain their return. There is no ability to appeal when someone people at the airport? How will those orders be served returns—for instance, if they have been involved in and what will the response be? humanitarian work in the region—and if the orders are breached, the penalty is the same as for breaching a Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): What are TPIM. I think the Home Secretary should consider that the right hon. Lady’s suggestions, therefore? further, because for TPIMs a judicial process rightly has to be satisfied. For a temporary exclusion order there is Yvette Cooper: There are some changes that could be no judicial oversight, yet penalties for breach are the made and we will table amendments to that effect, but same. We believe that the powers need to be debated in we need to know from the Home Secretary what discussions detail in Committee to ensure they are effective, cannot have taken place with other countries. It is very hard for be abused, and involve appropriate oversight. In response anybody in the House to propose appropriate amendments to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for without knowing what discussions have taken place and Walsall North (Mr Winnick), we will be tabling amendments what other countries intend to do in response. Will the on judicial oversight. measure work because other countries will co-operate, Finally, I wish to raise an issue familiar to the House or will it struggle because other countries have said they which was included in the original Communications will not co-operate? Data Bill. That Bill was far too widely drawn, but there was wide consensus on the need for action on IP addresses, Sir Edward Garnier rose— which had the support of the Joint Committee that considered the Bill. IP addresses are created and assigned Yvette Cooper: I will give way to the hon. and learned automatically. Some companies retain those data, but Gentleman if he can tell me whether Turkey, for example, some do not or routinely allocate multiple IP addresses has said that it will co-operate. to lots of people. That means that if an abusive image of a child has been sent from a particular IP address, Sir Edward Garnier: It may well be that the right hon. agencies can struggle to discover who that address Lady is making a good argument, but I cannot judge belongs to or where the child may be being abused. The that until she tells me what her position is. Opposition support the principle behind that change, 227 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 228 although I am sure it will need detailed scrutiny to particularly to Syria and Iraq—I have no doubt that she ensure that the legislation does what is intended. We is absolutely accurate in her description of the real must be clear that simply having the technical and legal threat they pose to us. capability to do things is not sufficient as long as, for With that in mind, I do not intend to take up much of example, there are huge delays in the National Crime the House’s time on my broad welcome of the legislation. Agency investigating child abuse cases and passing them Although the House will want to look in detail at the on to local forces. proposals on TPIMs and data retention, which is Julian Smith: I may have interrupted the right hon. undoubtedly important, and the measures on preventing Lady at the wrong point, but I would be grateful if she people from being drawn into terrorism, there is no could outline Labour’s view on communications data doubt in my mind that they make good sense. more generally, and say what measures she would support However, I hope to take a little of the House’s time as we introduce further changes. this evening to talk about chapter 2, on temporary exclusion from the United Kingdom; I have flagged up Yvette Cooper: We said some time ago that we would my concerns on how the House should best proceed on support measures on IP addresses, and that the whole that in a question to my right hon. Friend the Prime area needs to be looked at by the independent reviewer. Minister. It is a fundamental principle of the common That is why we called for an overall review of the law in this country that an individual, unconvicted—the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 by David presumption of innocence applies—should be free to Anderson, and insisted on that being included in the reside in his own land. The principle of exile, as a Bill. It is right to allow him to provide expert evidence judicial or even an administrative tool, has not been on the way that the police and agencies are having tolerated in this country since the late 17th century. It is difficulty keeping up with changing technology, and on certainly no part of our criminal justice panoply, and the scale of the additional safeguards needed. In all certainly not part of administrative provisions or powers those areas, strong powers may be needed in some cases, given to the state. but we also need strong checks and balances and proper oversight. I think there are areas where sufficient checks Chris Bryant: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman and balances are not currently in place. give way? More action is needed to deal with the serious threats resulting from the conflict in Syria and the rise of ISIL. Mr Grieve: I shall make a bit of progress. That means preventing radicalisation and dealing with people who pose a threat. It means having the right Therefore, when we consider the question of temporary foreign policy and action in the region, but it also exclusion from the United Kingdom, we must bear it in means ensuring that our laws at home are effective and mind that what is proposed, even if exclusion is on a proportionate, and that they cannot be abused, so that temporary basis, is a draconian and unusual power we do not let extremists threaten our democratic being taken by the state. The point has been made that values, the protection of our historical liberties and our the proposal could be in breach of our international security. legal obligations by rendering a person stateless. At the beginning of this Parliament, the Home Secretary That is a separate consideration, and I know the and the Deputy Prime Minister were inclined to make Home Secretary has had it in mind in introducing the grand, sweeping statements attacking previous Labour legislation, but I come back to the more fundamental Governments, and to make strong party political claims point about the common law right. The point is often about our counter-terror policy, be they about the Prevent well made that as Parliament is sovereign, it can exclude strategy or control orders. The Opposition warned the the common law whenever it likes, but the fact is that Home Secretary and the Deputy Prime Minister that the more fundamental the common law principle, the that was not wise, because counter-terror policy is not more careful we should be before excluding it. I simply easy; it requires care and thought. All Governments will say to my right hon. Friend that this is one of those get things wrong, and all parties will get things wrong. common law rights that I regard as being of a fundamental The Opposition will therefore work with the Home character. Secretary. We agree with her on some things, but we do If I move on from that to consider what is proposed, I not think she has got it right yet on others, and amendments am pleased to note that it seems to me that my right are needed. Parliament as a whole must be thoughtful hon. Friend the Home Secretary has given careful and responsible, because our liberty and security depend consideration to the issue. The temporary exclusion on each other. We need both in a democracy to keep orders, which she has put forward, appear to be of a us safe. character such that she accepts she must issue a permit within a reasonable time after a person makes the 5pm application. The process therefore is—in my view, correctly Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): It is a pleasure —one of managed return: a return that provides reassurance to be able to participate in the debate. At the outset, I that the state, which has to protect citizens here, knows should say that I welcome my right hon. Friend the of the returnee coming back to this country and, Home Secretary introducing the Bill. I entirely agree furthermore, provides opportunities, if necessary for with her that the House needs continuously to address the state to impose conditions on that individual after the challenge and threat that terrorism poses to us. they have come back. Some people think that the threat is exaggerated, but I have to say to my right hon. Friend that what has from my time as Attorney-General—I had to see some intrigued me in reading the Bill is the relationship of the background briefings, and sometimes to consider between that and the TPIMs the Bill seeks to enhance cases relating to individuals who had gone abroad, in a number of perfectly legitimate and sensible ways. 229 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 230

[Mr Grieve] example, it is preventing people from leaving the country when there are good grounds for considering whether As she will know, the TPIM is also a serious interference they are going to commit, or are likely to commit, an in the liberty of the subject, and is therefore provided act of terrorism, but it increasingly raises the likelihood with a number of safeguards and protections in how it of travel documents and passports being seized when it operates. The principal one is that although the Home might turn out subsequently on examination that there Secretary instigates the application for a TPIM, the was no justification. process has to be initiated through the High Court. The memorandum, properly prepared and passed There are some circumstances, however, in which that off—I am sure—by the Law Officers before being issued, can be bypassed in the event of an emergency, and makes the point that taking passports interferes with permission sought retrospectively. article 8 rights. It must therefore raise the possibility of The obligations after return to the United Kingdom, individuals who can show that their passports were in clause 8, appear—the Minister may be able to help us wrongly taken making a claim for compensation. As far when he comes to sum up—to be in large measure as I am aware, no issues of compensation have hitherto identical to those one might expect a TPIM to include, arisen from passport seizure. I appreciate that it might although there may be some differences, in which case it be different were it done maliciously, but I am talking would be useful to have some clarification. Of course, not about malice but about errors made at the time the the principal difference, as far as I can make out, is that passport was removed. this process does not have to be instigated by an application During the passage of the Bill, I hope that my right to the High Court; it is simply done on the basis of the hon. Friend and other colleagues on the Front Bench Home Secretary concluding that she has reasonable will think about the likely consequences, which might grounds for requiring this process to take place. often be financial, of increasing powers of passport I have to say to my right hon. Friend that I will be removal. I do not think that where there are reasonable interested, in the course of the debate during the passage grounds to suspect involvement in terrorism an individual of the Bill, to understand why we should introduce two has a right to compensation, but unfortunately there separate regimes of this kind. We know that, in respect might be instances of people being targeted when they of TPIMs, she has been broadly satisfied with the way have no involvement in terrorism. they have been operating, even though she wishes to Ultimately—I have said this previously in the House, expand some of their scope. That is, I think, supported but it is worth saying again—we are engaged in a values on both sides of the House. After all, if an individual is battle. We will not stop terrorism or prevent young located in Iraq or Syria, or has crossed the border into people from going to participate in terrorism by whatever Turkey and has indicated a desire to return when my methods of law we pass in this House, however draconian right hon. Friend has removed his or her passport, the they might be; we will stop this phenomenon when we one thing one probably has as a result of this legislation can persuade people that the virtues of our society, is a short period of leisure—the reasonable period which are many, despite some of its drawbacks, are very where the application is being made—for, if necessary, considerable and that its values should be respected. the process of a TPIM, or a TPIM which applies to a For that reason, when we enact such legislation, we returnee, to be instigated through the High Court. I am must have it in mind that we do not, as an unintended a little mystified as to why we should simply resort to a consequence, create the very resentments that are likely judicial review process, which, although I accept it may to fuel terrorism in the future. comply with our international legal obligations and Listening to the shadow Home Secretary, I was reminded also the principles of due process, is nevertheless by its that I have said that previously—over 90-day and 42-day nature likely to be more ponderous and cumbersome, pre-charge detention, both of which, I might add, were and would not allow the High Court to be seized of this far more draconian attempts at interfering with the matter at an earlier opportunity. liberty of the subject than anything my right hon. I say to my right hon. Friend that this is a matter on Friend is doing in this measure, which I know she has which we need to spend a bit of time during the passage brought forward with a prudent eye to the issues I have of the Bill, to see whether in fact the two ways of raised. On that basis, I welcome the Bill, but I hope that approaching this are justified. Beyond that, I want to the matters I have touched on will be given serious emphasise that the principle of the managed return thought. seems to me eminently sensible, and my right hon. Friend has my support on it. The House will of course 5.12 pm also want to look at some of the other issues that may Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to apply to the details in respect of this scheme. follow the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield On the seizure of passports, the point needs to be (Mr Grieve), whose excellent and thoughtful speech made that a passport is not actually a right to come into leads me to conclude that were he still the Attorney-General, the United Kingdom. I say that because we have discussed the Bill would not have appeared before the House in it in the terms of the matter I have just been talking the form it has. I hope he makes it to the Committee, about. Ultimately, the issue of a passport is a prerogative because the points he raised are extremely important to power. It is, in some ways, vouching for the person ensuring that the Bill is robust before it is passed by the concerned. There are many reasons why my right hon. House. Friend may rightly remove somebody’s passport, either I agree with the Home Secretary, the shadow Home before they leave the United Kingdom or when they are Secretary the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract abroad. However, I raise the following issue. We are and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), and the right hon. and progressively giving more and more summary powers to learned Member for Beaconsfield that these are dangerous seize passports. There is nothing wrong in that, if, for times, which is why we require the greatest possible 231 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 232 scrutiny of the Bill. I therefore begin by raising the that we need to act quickly but carefully, while recognising concern of the Home Affairs Committee that we have not only that ISIL and extremist groups are operating not had the opportunity to scrutinise the Bill to the in Iraq and Syria but that those who support those extent we would have liked. It was published only last groups are acting in countries all over the world. week, and today is its Second Reading. We have not had Yesterday I met Nathalie Goulet, the chair of the an opportunity to hold any sessions, and no Minister French Senate Committee that is inquiring into the has come before us. I know that the Home Secretary is struggle of jihadi networks in France and Europe. I was extremely busy, but she managed to fit in several other astonished to hear that the situation in respect of French engagements instead of coming before the Committee. citizens travelling to Iraq and Syria is much worse in It would have been much more appropriate had a France than it is in our country. I looked up the last Minister come before us before the Bill came to the report our Select Committee published, and it must be a House. surprise for the House to learn that countries such as Belgium, Australia, even are in exactly the Mrs May: When we were discussing the Wanless and same position as we are in respect of citizens who wish Whittam report, the right hon. Gentleman challenged to travel abroad to fight. me in the Chamber over the fact that I had not appeared That is why we cannot see the fight against terrorism before the Committee, when in fact the Committee had as something that affects just this House. The shadow withdrawn the invitation. As I understand it—he might Home Secretary was right to raise the international have a different understanding—I am due to appear dimension. The Select Committee was very clear in its before his Committee in two weeks. last report published earlier this year in saying that there needed to be an international platform, with Keith Vaz: The Home Secretary is right that she is due countries able to pool information and act together. We to appear before us in two weeks’ time, but the legislation suggested that we should work through Interpol, which will probably have passed through the House by then. If we saw as the most appropriate organisation, as it a piece of emergency legislation is coming before us, as already exists to share information about organised it is now, Ministers should put themselves before the crime. We felt that that was a platform that could be relevant Select Committee. The right hon. Lady managed developed to build an international network with allies to fit in a visit to the British curry awards last night, at such as the French, the Dutch and others to ensure that which we were of course all delighted to see her, but the we do things together and learn good practice. point is that the date of 16 December for this emergency I learned that in France, for example, they have a legislation to come before the House was fixed many dedicated “Green Line”, which people can ring with months ago, and Ministers must be prepared to be information about those they suspect of being involved scrutinised on such legislation. That message clearly in terrorism, and parents can ring for advice and be applies to all Select Committees. The Home Secretary guided in the right direction. As a result of the activities may nod her head, but that is the position. Our Select of the “Green Line”, the French authorities have been Committee is now left to conduct a session on this Bill able to stop 200 people from travelling abroad to fight. after its Second Reading, which we will do tomorrow. There are other examples, and I hope that we use the good practice developed in other countries in order not Chris Bryant: Is it not a particular irony that the to repeat mistakes and to move forward and try to find Government always drag their heels on legislation when effective methods of stopping people from travelling. it comes to a subject such as circus animals, but when it comes to legislation dealing with the liberty of the Mr Winnick: My right hon. Friend talked about individual, the Government always want to expedite the mistakes. Going further back, would it not be wise to processes through the House. Is that not a nonsense? remember some of the measures taken against IRA terrorism? Like everyone else, I opposed such terrorism Keith Vaz: I thank my hon. Friend, although that also from the very beginning; it had no justification. However, happened with a Government of whom we were both some of those measures, such as internment, were counter- Members; it is a feature of the way in which Governments productive and played right into the hands of the IRA. tend to introduce counter-terrorism legislation. Indeed, Should we not take that sort of thing into account? as the shadow Home Secretary said, mistakes are made, and there were mistakes under the last Government. I Keith Vaz: Those are exactly the unintended consequences remember the incredibly important speeches of the to which the right hon. and learned Member for right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield on Beaconsfield and others have referred. Of course we 42 days and 92 days, and the role played by my hon. need powers in order to deal with those who wish to Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) on undermine the values of our society, but we need to be these issues. That is why it is so important to pause, very careful about the way in which we use them, and consider, scrutinise and then report to the House. The we need to think about the consequences. Select Committee will not be in a position to produce a A number of the recommendations made by the report for this House as we had hoped we might, simply Select Committee over a number of years have been because there is no time to do so as we have already adopted in the Bill. We support what is being done in reached Second Reading. By the time the Home Secretary respect of radicalism, but we are cautious about some makes her much-heralded appearance before us, the of the programmes that are being used. I do not support legislation will probably already have passed through the placing of the counter-terrorism narrative in the the House. Department for Communities and Local Government. Having made my complaint about that matter, I agree The Select Committee has not inquired into that, but I that these are dangerous times. The Home Secretary believe that the Home Office is the lead organisation and the shadow Home Secretary are absolutely right and these should be Home Office programmes. The 233 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 234

[Keith Vaz] observe in Palestine? Is there a way in which we could try to understand, and perhaps take on, some of the problem with dealing with more than one Department issues that motivate people to become involved in extremist is the need to persuade different Ministers and civil activity? servants of the necessity of changing things. I do not think that it works very well when two Cabinet Ministers Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman is right. We need to are responsible for roughly the same area of policy. This understand much more, and we can only do so at local should be done with and through the Home Secretary, level: in the mosque, through community activities, in so that she can deliver locally what she tells the House schools—as the Home Secretary said—in colleges, and that she wishes to deliver in a more strategic way. in prisons. People who have not been radicalised go into those institutions and come out radicalised, and then Dr Lewis: Some of us feel that a seamless counter- there is a failure to monitor them. The solutions are all narrative needs to be presented, and that therefore it there—in reports written by Committees over a number would be more appropriate to set up one of the MISC of years, in contributions made in all the time Members or GEN Committees, as I believe they are called. Several have been in this House, and in speeches of Home Departments—I can think of four or five—could then Secretaries, as strong as the one we heard today, when have overall control of a counter-narrative that has yet she said what she wanted to put right as far as terrorism to be properly generated. and radicalisation are concerned—but they are not acted upon, and they have to be acted upon, otherwise Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman has worked very we will be back here in a year’s time doing the same hard on this issue for some years. I believe that the thing again, and we do not want that. status quo does not work, and I have every sympathy with his proposal, which would enable the different programmes to be delivered together. Chris Bryant: Does that not highlight why, in considering giving new measures to the Home Secretary it is incumbent I mentioned earlier that the Home Secretary had on us to assess whether that would radicalise people addressed the Bangladeshi community yesterday. She further or provide greater security to us? My anxiety was extremely well received by the 2,000 people who about temporary exclusion orders is that exile has not were present; she made a strong effort to relate directly had a good history in Britain. When Richard II exiled to that important community. Obviously her message Henry Bolingbroke, he simply went abroad, gathered a yesterday was different from her message today, because whole load of allies and came back to this country and a different kind of event was involved, but the point is removed the King. My anxiety is that these new orders that we need to get into the DNA of communities. will do exactly the same thing. The Home Secretary’s constituency contains a south Asian community—indeed, like my own constituency, it Keith Vaz: My hon. Friend is a greater historian than contains various communities—but we have in this I am, but our constituents would say, if they were to Chamber Members such as my hon. Friends the Members find out there is someone causing mischief in Kenya, as for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood) and for Adebolajo was, that he should be kept in Kenya if the Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), both of whom Kenyan authorities want to prosecute him, and that we are very much a part of their communities. Anyone who should not try to bring him back. If there are people in walks down the Lozells road with my hon. Friend the these countries who are up to mischief and who wish to Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr will see that the undermine the values of our country, I can understand entire community relates to him. We are lucky to have perfectly why the Government are suggesting an exclusion not just him and my hon. Friend the Member for order. Bolton South East, but other Members with different origins, on both sides of the House. They will tell us The issue here is not that we should not accept that; it what the voice of the community says, which is that is to do with the practicalities that the shadow Home being told what to do never works, whether by police Secretary and the right hon. and learned Member for officers or—if I say so myself—by men in grey or black Beaconsfield have mentioned. Sometimes we need to be suits. What is necessary is peer group pressure and very careful that there is proper judicial scrutiny of the community engagement, and those must come from decisions we take. I think that sometimes our constituents communities themselves. would prefer such people not to come back. If they are How many times do we discover from the BBC news brought back, they have to be monitored so they do not that parents have no idea that their children have gone end up putting on a burqa, leaving a mosque and to Syria to fight? One parent from Brighton said that he leaving the country, as Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed did not know where his son had gone until he was did. He wanted to stay in Somalia but was brought back phoned and told that the son had died. That is why peer to this country and now is nobody knows where. group pressure is so vital. How do we miss this point Of course I support this legislation. When a British every time? We cannot tell communities what to do; we Home Secretary comes before the House and says, need to engage with them, and they need to move that “These measures are necessary in order to combat the process forward. severe threat we face,” the House will obviously support what the Home Secretary is doing. However, there is a Pete Wishart: The right hon. Gentleman is, of course, need to scrutinise the practicalities, and the Home absolutely right about the need for us to engage with Office must work closely with the Select Committee and communities, but is it not our responsibility to try to the House to ensure that we have a solution and decisions understand some of what motivates people to go and that will be in the best interests of our country, and will do these appalling, dreadful things, such as illegal wars, not create the kind of unintended consequences that we conflicts in the middle east, and the injustices that they all wish to avoid. 235 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 236

5.27 pm within the sphere of legality the provision that the Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): My Government consider to be appropriate. However, I right hon. Friend the Home Secretary opened the debate maintain my reservations for this reason: if the right to by referring to the nature of the threat, as did my right return is a matter of such principle, it can be neither hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield capable of modification nor subject to conditionality. (Mr Grieve) in his contribution. The truth is that in We are told that we are dealing with managed return. If some quarters there is a continual effort to suggest that it is managed return, why is it described in the Bill as a the characterisation of the threat is in some way designed temporary exclusion order? The sense is turned right for political purposes. Both my right hon. Friend the around by the description in the Bill, notwithstanding Home Secretary and my right hon. and learned Friend the explanation that my right hon. Friend the Home have been closer to the centre of the ring of secrecy than Secretary has given. I ever have, although we on the Intelligence and Security Committee do acquire a degree of information that is Sir Edward Garnier: I may have misunderstood that not public. It is important that people understand that point that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is what we are facing is unprecedented, and that in such making, and I hope that he will forgive me if I have conditions, in deciding where the balance rests between done so. If the orders were to be called managed return security and privacy, it may be felt necessary to tilt the orders, but the same procedures applied, would that balance in a direction other than that in which one make any difference? I am not sure that it would. would normally wish to tilt it. May I make one preliminary point? I happened to be Sir Menzies Campbell: No, it certainly would not. I at St Andrews university yesterday conferring degrees think that that points up the fact that perhaps the issue on grateful students, and in the course of that it became was to find a description that, as has been suggested, clear to me that there is some anxiety among the university might easily fit a headline, rather than the substance authorities about how they would properly implement of the proposal. I see heads shaking on the Treasury the obligations that may be placed upon them. I therefore Bench, but it would not be the first time that a definition agree with the shadow Home Secretary that my right created for easy understanding by the public and the hon. Friend the Home Secretary’s guidance in this press did not accurately reflect the precise terms of the matter is going to be of enormous importance. I am legislation. sure it will be as well drawn as possible, but the sooner One difficulty is that the Government, although they that guidance is available, perhaps even for consultation, were no doubt informed by the advice of Law Officers, the better. have none the less produced something that on any view In my intervention on my right hon. Friend the innovates against the principle of the right of return. I Home Secretary, I made it clear that I am still not yet respectfully say that if that principle is as inviolate as persuaded about the legality of the temporary exclusion has been suggested, any such innovation must be contrary order. It is helpful to look briefly at the conditions that to law and contrary to practice. In that, I differ from my would apply to someone against whom such an order right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield was pronounced. They would be required not to return but, as was pointed out to me on my first day as a law to the United Kingdom unless one of two conditions student, lawyers are well paid for being wrong 50% of was satisfied: either the Secretary of State has issued a the time. There are genuine differences of emphasis and permit, or the individual has been deported to the understanding. The one thing we can be most certain United Kingdom. Some concern has been expressed about, however, is that this matter will be tested in the about the fact that it is entirely within the power of my courts and, no doubt, in the Supreme Court in due course. right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, or indeed her successors, to apply the terms of such a permit. We are entitled to assume that they will be reasonable, but they Mr Grieve: I should emphasise that I do not disagree may not be reasonable in the mind of the person against with the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s characterisation whom they are directed. of “contrary to law”, which is why we have to be so very cautious about this. However, Parliament is ultimately So far, it has been perfectly clear from the contributions sovereign and despite the existence of great things such that have been made that everyone accepts that the as Magna Carta and habeas corpus, Parliament has, on exclusion of a British-born national from the United occasion, ignored some of the key terms of both. One Kingdom is contrary to both law and practice. The has to remember that power ultimately resides here, but right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield was when one starts to interfere with what is seen as a eloquent in his description of what the common law fundamental common law right, one should look at it amounted to. Is it not the case that the effect of exclusion carefully, and the courts will look at it carefully if they is to remove the right of statehood to return, even if come to have to scrutinise it. only temporarily, if the individual accepts the terms of a permit? If an individual does not accept the terms of a permit—subject to the fact that the orders have to be Sir Menzies Campbell: A lot would depend on the renewed at two-yearly intervals—the individual may, in interpretation of the strength of the right that a court effect, be unable to return in perpetuity to the United was willing to place on the right of return. That is why I Kingdom, of which he or she is a national. suspect that this will eventually be a matter for the The Prime Minister’s original statement on 1 September Supreme Court, rather than for any intervening forum suggested that some kind of blanket ban on return between the House of Commons and that one. could be effected, and my right hon. and learned Friend I wish to draw attention to another element in this the Member for Beaconsfield and I were both at pains matter. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and to say that we doubted the legality of that. I understand her successors—I almost said heirs and successors, that the temporary exclusion order is designed to bring according to law—have a considerable discretion conferred 237 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 238

[Sir Menzies Campbell] way to applaud the fact that the Home Secretary and the former Attorney-General had both emphasised the upon them in this matter, first, about the imposition nature of the threat that we face. I am in no doubt and, secondly, about the terms of a permit. It is said about, it as I am a member of the Intelligence and that judicial review is available for this, but let us Security Committee, but that does not mean that we consider the position of someone in a foreign country should close our eyes to the possibility of an illegality with a legal aid system less generous than ours—how that might be challenged in the Supreme Court, which could we even describe ours as generous these days? would have an enormously undermining effect on legislation What is the possibility of their mounting a judicial of the kind that we are proposing. It is an argument in review in advance of accepting that they can return only favour of careful consideration, which I am sure that under certain conditions. David Anderson QC, who has this Bill will have as it passes through Committee. already been referred to with some approval in this debate, has drawn particular attention to this matter. So 5.40 pm the Government would be well advised to follow the suggestion that came at one stage in our debate—I do Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): It is a pleasure not recall from which side of the House—to ensure that to follow the right hon. and learned Member for North there is some intervention from the court much earlier East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell). The learned discussion in the system. My right hon. Friend might be obliged to between him and the right hon. and learned Member go to court to ask for such an order. for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) is slightly reminiscent of As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for the legal discussions that we have in the Intelligence and Beaconsfield and I can agree, even if we do not agree in Security Committee, where we are blessed with three the ultimate interpretation, these are matters of considerable Scottish Queen’s Counsel members. seriousness involving the liberty of the individual. In As a former counter-terrorism Minister, I am well those circumstances, not only would it be right and aware of the difficulties of legislating in this area. Most proper to have the intervention of the court, but that of us wish that this legislation was not necessary. No might avoid the Home Secretary and her successors politician in a democracy takes lightly action that will being engaged in political controversy because of the inevitably impact on the rights of individuals unless pronouncement of a TEO in a particular case. So I there is a compelling case to do so to protect our retain my scepticism and there is certainly a requirement citizens as a whole. that if this provision is to pass into law, the discretion of The framework against which we set this legislation the Secretary of State should not be as stated in the Bill. should be the test that we apply to our agencies and all Instead, there should be a requirement to seek judicial the work that we do. I am talking about the fact that authority before the pronouncement of such an order. any action must be lawful, necessary and proportionate, Mr Winnick: I have listened carefully to the right and that should be our guide in our scrutiny of this Bill hon. and learned Gentleman’s speech and fully agree today. That is the language of universal human rights, with it. When the matter is being debated on the Floor and we should judge any proposals against that test, of the House, as it will be on more than one occasion—I which is well established in our law. am also pleased about that—will we get the support of Inevitably, this area will be contested territory; it Liberal Democrats? I am not making a party point as always has been. I remember trying to take control such, because I know that he will vote as he considers orders through this House. It was one of our last appropriate. But it would greatly help to strengthen the all-night sittings. We sat throughout the night and had measures announced by the Home Secretary, particularly some amazing discussions at 4 am, some of which were on TEOs, if we could get a majority vote in favour of intelligible and others of which were not, so I know how the High Court being involved before any such order is difficult it can be. It is contested territory, and that is as made. it should be in a strong democracy. I have no doubt that the debate over the next few weeks will be intense, Sir Menzies Campbell: I am too long in the tooth to passionate and occasionally noisy. It is up to us here in try to speak on behalf of my party leader, as the hon. this House and in the other place to determine whether Gentleman might expect, but I would most certainly the proposals before us are necessary and proportionate support an amendment of that kind, and I would seek to the threat that faces our country. to persuade other men and women of like mind and Lots of Members this evening have set out the nature good sense to do exactly the same. of that threat. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) that if we look Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): The right hon. at the analysis, we can see that we have a problem in this and learned Gentleman has spoken a lot about the country. We have at least 500 young men and women rights of those who may be excluded as a result of this who have gone out to Syria, 250 of whom have probably provision, but would he care to say something about come back. By comparison, France, the , people who feel under threat from those who have gone Denmark, Sweden, Tunisia and Saudi Arabia have from this country, trained to be terrorists, committed thousands of people who have gone out to be part of acts of terrorism and are likely to come back here to the conflict in Syria, so we should put the matter in commit acts of terrorism? What has he got to say to the perspective. people who feel threatened? What safeguards would he put in place for them? If 250 people have come back, perhaps one in nine or 10 of them will be radicalised to the extent that they Sir Menzies Campbell: In my own defence, when I may want to do us harm in this country. If that is the first got to my feet—I do not know whether the hon. case, we are talking about 25 or 30 individuals who have Gentleman was present at the time—I went out of my come back trained, radicalised and experienced in conflict. 239 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 240

That may sound like a small number, but in actual fact inequality I found around the world. Luckily, I was not it is a significant and serious threat. The resources being groomed by extremists—at least, I do not think I required to have 24-hour surveillance on 25 to 30 people was. in this country are absolutely immense, and I am concerned One of the other causes for the 7/7 bombers was the about the resources that are being made available, even possibility of being drawn into forced marriage. Those with the extra £130 million that the Prime Minister young men wanted to fall in love and to do so on their announced the other day. own terms and in their own way, and they found the Professor Peter Neumann from the International Centre prospect of forced marriage very difficult. Many emotional for the Study of Radicalisation has done some interesting issues and transition points are key in young people’s work on segmenting the kind of people who go out to education, as well as the messages that are put out. fight in Syria and the people who come back. He has I am grateful to places such as the International grouped them into three categories. Centre for the Study of Radicalisation at King’s college, First, we have the disturbed people who undoubtedly as well as other academic institutions, for the work they have mental health problems and who are particularly are doing on this issue. As the shadow Home Secretary susceptible to the kind of narrative that is promulgated said, we must follow the evidence where it takes us and and that draws them into extremist activity. not simply our own prejudices and views. The second category is the dangerous. It includes I welcome the provisions in the Bill as a whole. Many those who are simply evil people and want to do us are common sense. I have no doubt that the judicial harm. They have records on social media of enticing involvement in the issues to do with temporary exclusion other people to go out and take knives to people, chop orders will be contested. The measures on aviation and their heads off or blow people up—they are dangerous rail security are simply common-sense approaches to people within our society. Interestingly, he describes the matters that we need to take seriously. third category as the disillusioned. That includes all the I want to focus on the issues to do with the Prevent people who have gone out to fight in Syria, perhaps in strategy set out in part 5. I have a number of questions sympathy because they have seen on their televisions the for the Government. Obviously, I welcome the fact that terrible things that have happened to refugees and innocent Prevent will be put on a statutory footing, as that is families, but when they have got out there they have important in getting the appropriate resources in place discovered that ISIS is a different proposition from and ensuring a consistent approach. A crucial part of what they thought. They never contemplated the this will be the evaluation of its effectiveness. When the viciousness, brutality, crucifixions and beheadings and Government did their review of Prevent three and a half they often find themselves fighting and killing other years ago, they said that there were not sufficient measures Muslims because of the factional and sectarian nature of effectiveness, that there were no metrics, and that of the forces in Syria. It is an interesting analysis. they were not able to measure the impact. What progress I do not for one moment subscribe to the idea that have the Government made in measuring the impact of there should be some kind of amnesty and that people the Prevent strategy, because I have seen no metrics, no should be allowed simply to come back into this country valuation and no evidence on that score? If we are without facing any sanctions whatsoever. I absolutely going to spend significant amounts of public money, as believe that when people have committed criminal offences we have done and as I hope we will continue to, we must they should be prosecuted, convicted and put away for a ensure that it is making a difference. Evaluation is long time. therefore important. The duty that will be placed on schools, prisons, Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend has done a huge probation providers and local authorities is very welcome. amount of work on community engagement, when in The explanatory notes stated that the guidance would government and since then, as part of the taskforce. be published in tandem with the legislation, but I think Drawing on all the work that she has done, what does that the bicycle has got a little bit ahead of the guidance. she think is the tipping point? When does someone go I hope that the guidance will be published as soon as from being a law-abiding citizen to deciding that they possible, because it will be a key part of the debate. We want to go? What pushes people over the edge? Are we need to see how effective it will be, how it will operate in any nearer to finding the cause? practice and what its parameters will be. I urge the Minister to make that a top priority. My concerns about that agenda—I know that the Hazel Blears: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) shares for raising that issue. We have more experience now of them—relate to counter-ideology. Where is the work, in the different paths that people take towards extremism, the way chapter 5 is set out, on counter-ideology? but it is still very complex. It is different for different Where is the work on tackling the narrative and ensuring people, but one key issue is emotional vulnerability. The that both online and offline there are positive messages analysis suggests that there are key points in people’s that expose the poverty of this mediaeval ideology, lives when they feel lonely or isolated and are more which is about sharia law and establishing a caliphate, vulnerable to a message. which is absolutely inimical to the right of women and The first year at university is often a difficult phase girls, which does not believe in education, which is for people. They do not have a friendship group and can backward-looking, reactionary and does not provide a easily be drawn into activity that is glorified, that represents forward-looking view of what it means to be a Muslim an adventure and that is full of passion and idealism. in a modern, free and liberal democracy? It is all very Some of us will no doubt have experienced similar well putting that duty on those organisations, but where circumstances in our own politics, and I was certainly is the work on counter-ideology? I want to hear from fired up to go and do something about the injustice and the Minister on that. 241 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 242

Mr Khalid Mahmood: Does my right hon. Friend I will briefly say something on de-radicalisation. It is agree that that is the reason why we had to tackle the an even newer field and we have even less best practice issues of the Trojan horse schools in Birmingham, on it. A very good European Union study by the which were deliberately separately pupils, putting young Institute for Strategic Dialogue has given examples girls to the back of the class and not giving them the from other countries, but they are mainly based on same opportunities as boys, further reinforcing that bringing people out of far-right extremism. The Islamist stereotype? threat has not yet been explored enough. We need to do more work on that. People in this country are doing Hazel Blears: My hon. Friend is so right. I would like great work, including Shiraz Maher from the International to place on the record my huge admiration for the Centre for the Study of Radicalisation, Fiyaz Mughal courage he has shown in his community by standing up of Faith Matters, and those at the JAN Trust and the to some of the voices of reaction. That is never an easy Active Change Foundation. We have some great, great place to be when taking a stand for something one people who we need to support to make a difference. believes in so strongly. He is second to none in the way I conclude with what the Prime Minister said—credit he has enabled ordinary people in his community to where it is due—in his Munich speech three and a half speak out. They did not want that going on in their years ago: schools; they wanted their schools to educate their “This terrorism is completely indiscriminate and has been children for the future, not the past. He has done an thrust upon us. It cannot be ignored or contained; we have to amazing job. confront it with confidence—confront the ideology that drives it My second question to the Minister is this: where is by defeating the ideas that warp so many young minds at their the collective work happening? Tackling the threat is an root, and confront the issues of identity that sustain it by standing issue for us all—parents, all of us in this House and for a much broader and generous vision of citizenship in our people in the community. When we see people starting countries.” to be led down the extremist path, we have a responsibility Our country is a great place for people to live and grow to act. Even before that point there is work to be done up—a country of freedom, tolerance and inclusivity. in increasing the resilience of communities to withstand We have to stand for those values and stand against the the extremist message. Again, that is difficult to do. My wicked, pernicious, narrow, divisive extremist agenda right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East asked that is unfortunately pervading so many of our young what the evidence is for a tipping point. The truth is that people. it is complicated and we do not have all the answers, but I am absolutely convinced that it is not enough just to 5.55 pm deal with individuals who are already radicalised, to refer to the Channel group, to have a panel discussion Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Thank and to come up with a bespoke programme for that you, Mr Speaker, for calling me to follow an excellent individual. That is not enough. It is essential, but it has speech by the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles to be complemented by work that empowers people in (Hazel Blears). the community, the decent vast majority of Muslims in At the end of the Home Secretary’s forthright speech, our country who feel absolutely betrayed by this perversion she said that we are “in the midst of a generational of their faith. They have to be empowered to stand up, struggle”. That is true, but we are also in the midst of an be counted, push that message back and gather the ideological struggle. That is the message that the right consensus around the majority of the community. I do hon. Member for Salford and Eccles and I have been not see that in this Bill, and I want to. trying to deliver to the Government. Our message is I want to put on the record my personal position on that we are well served by our security and intelligence this, because there is a lot of confusion about it. As I agencies in identifying and disrupting home-grown terrorists, think the Minister knows, I have always supported but we lack comparable capacity to neutralise the ideology action against non-violent extremism as well as violent that infects them in the first place and to support extremism. I did not always get 100% of my way—I am mainstream moderate Muslims in challenging the sure that the Home Secretary has experience of not extremists’ perverted distortion of Islam. always getting 100% of her way in Cabinet—but my In reviewing our current strategy and policies to personal position has always been that it is not enough prevent people from being radicalised and drawn into to tackle violent extremism; we must also tackle the extremist activity, we should, as I said in an intervention, conditions in which it is allowed to become the accepted follow the precedents of the wartime efforts to expose discourse and dialogue. That is where our strategy and denounce fascism and the cold war campaigns to should be. counter communist totalitarianism. The extremist ideology I have no problem with the Home Office leading on of political Islam is a similarly totalitarian creed requiring Channel and on the police and the agencies, but I agree an organised effort to undermine its appeal and to with the hon. Member for New Forest East that we strengthen the long-term resilience of the communities need a broader view on this agenda, because there are that are most vulnerable to it. so many Government Departments involved. I do not In order to succeed, this work must be owned by the think that the Department for Communities and Local whole of Government on a cross-departmental basis, Government should lead on this, but I believe that it has working closely with local government in engaging with a role to play in bringing communities together. I am civic and faith organisations on the ground. It requires very disappointed by that Department’s lack of action the creation of a specialist counter-propaganda agency—I and its failure to produce a counter-extremism strategy. use the word “propaganda”in its non-pejorative sense—to We have had a statement, but we have seen no action to develop a counter-narrative and to support communities back it up over the past three years. I think that the in their efforts to challenge the extremists. This agency issue is now incredibly pressing. should operate under the supervision of a permanent 243 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 244 ministerial committee on which the Home Office, the “they were not lunatics or even ‘lone wolves’. They took large Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department doses of the drug called ideology…It was supplied by pushers for Communities and Local Government, the Ministry who might live in their neighbourhood, but might equally well of Defence and the Department for International live in Yemen or Aleppo.” Development are represented. Charles Moore refers to the calls that have been made to start a counter-narrative, but he notes that MI5, for I assure you, Mr Speaker, that I did not give the right all its good work, does not have—some would say that hon. Member for Salford and Eccles any warning of it should not have this; it is not necessarily its responsibility what I am going to say next, but I am nevertheless going to have it—an ideological unit. He says: to say it, at the risk of embarrassing her. I feel—as, I am sure, will many others—that it is a great loss, given her “It is rather as if we were trying to combat Communism specialist knowledge and flair for this subject, that she without knowing the theories of Marxist-Leninism.” has decided to leave the House of Commons at the next He concludes: election. Should such an agency be set up in future, I “Time after time, it is non-violent subversion that has prepared can think of no better person to run it than the right the ground for serious trouble”, hon. Lady—whether she wants the job or not. and he warns against the danger of running around As we have heard, the Prime Minister has said, as far “trying to catch the bad fruit, instead of taking an axe to the back as three years ago but also more recently, it is not tree.” enough to tackle terrorism; it is also necessary to counter This is a problem that we face at a scale that is not yet what he calls the “poisonous ideology” that underlies it. insupportable, but which could get very much worse. The Home Secretary now says that we need to tackle Somebody once said that the problem with the world non-violent as well as violent extremism, so the message is that the ignorant are cocksure and the wise are full of is clearly getting through, but there is still some way to doubt. The problem we have is that some people with a go. Why is there such reluctance to recognise that what racist, radical, totalitarian, extremist, murderous ideology we ought to be calling un-Islamic extremism, and what have found a way, in the name of their interpretation of we certainly should not be calling Islamic State, should their God and their Prophet, to do what extremists have be confronted at a similar level, on a similar scale, and always wanted to do, which is to enjoy untrammelled in a similar way to our approach to fascist and communist power over everyone else. ideologies in the past? The answer, I suspect, is the fear One cannot mobilise a society or a community to of the pseudo-religious basis of this incarnation of counter that successfully if one confines oneself simply traditional totalitarian, extremist doctrine. to dealing with individuals whom one has already recognised I want to draw the House’s attention to a particularly as at risk of radicalisation, because they will already be important article by Charles Moore in The Daily Telegraph on the conveyor belt to an extremist outcome and, very on Saturday 29 November. It is headed, “We won’t probably, to a violent extremist outcome. What one has defeat extremism until we understand their ideology”, to do is not to be shy about the virtues of democratic with the sub-heading, “Stopping jihadists is one thing—but politics, institutions and ideas, or about denouncing the stopping them from wanting to kill is more important”. follies and iniquities of systems based on an ideology The article reflects very much the views that I have been that stands in total opposition to everything that moderate putting forward in this speech, but neither I nor the and liberal-minded people believe. right hon. Lady had any contact with Mr Moore before he wrote it. It is always very encouraging when somebody Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman is making such a of that calibre independently arrives at similar conclusions powerful speech that I am loth to interrupt him. I am to those that one has oneself reached. sure that he would appreciate, respect and understand the fact that we, too, have a responsibility for creating Hazel Blears: I cannot anticipate what the hon. some of the conditions that have allowed this dreadful, Gentleman is going to say next, but I did speak to awful and appalling ideology to take root, through Charles Moore last week, so I would not want him to decisions such as those about military adventures in the mislead the House inadvertently. middle east, injustice in Palestine and illegal wars. In his rounded assessment, surely he should also look at our Dr Lewis: That only goes to show that the right hon. responsibility for allowing this to happen. Lady and I do not co-ordinate our efforts as seamlessly as perhaps we ought, because I should have known that. Dr Lewis: When I heard the hon. Gentleman, in his Anyway, the important thing about the article is that it articulate fashion, make that point in an earlier intervention, looks at the consequences and conclusions of our recently I felt, frankly, that it was a counsel of despair. If he is published Intelligence and Security Committee report saying—[Interruption.] Let me give him my answer. If on the terrible events in Woolwich. The main question he is saying that the only way to stop terrorism is to in Charles Moore’s mind about the killers is: what is it bring peace to the middle east, then, frankly, we are that made them so bloodthirsty and so bold in the first never going to stop terrorism. [Interruption.] I will let place? Why did they want to do such a terrible thing? him intervene again in a moment if he so wishes. I want He comes to the conclusion: to put to him the more serious point that we have a “Islamist extremism combines something very new—the power Muslim community of between 2 million and 3 million of internet technology—with something very old—the power of citizens, but I am very pleased to say that out of that belief.” very large number, only a very tiny number resort to He says that the report establishes that such methods. If the real cause was western folly in interfering in the middle east, that would still not justify “Lee Rigby’s murderers were ‘self-starting’”, what the tiny minority of Muslims are doing. I will give but that way to him again. 245 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 246

Pete Wishart: In no sense was my intervention an and most evil form. It is an ideology. It is not the attempt to justify what is happening. It was about ideology of Islam. We must mobilise and support those accepting and assuming our responsibility following the people in the Muslim community who wish to tackle decisions that we have made. There is absolutely no this matter, and we must not be afraid to set up institutions doubt whatsoever that military adventures in the middle and organisations that are capable of dealing with this east have increased radicalisation, with some people formidable threat. finding such an ideology as a response to their ultimate and desperate frustration. Surely the hon. Gentleman 6.11 pm must recognise that. Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab): Today and over the past 10 days or so, the vast majority Dr Lewis: What I recognise is that the events the hon. of people in the Muslim community in the United Gentleman is talking about are legitimate in a democratic Kingdom, which numbers between 2.5 million and 3 million society for argument and disagreement, but not for people, will have been apprehensive about what the Bill resorting to terrorism. holds for them, how they will come to look at it and in what way they must play a part in delivering this policy Pete Wishart indicated assent. and moving it forward. There will, of course, be those who will try to capitalise on that. They will say, “This Dr Lewis: I see the hon. Gentleman nodding in Bill is about putting you down. It is about doing things agreement, so I will quit the exchange at that point. to you because you are not regarded as full UK citizens or as belonging to society in the UK.” Those are the people we have to look at and deal with. Sir Menzies Campbell rose— I stand before the House as a member of the Muslim community who believes that those people do not speak Dr Lewis: I was about to wind up my remarks, but I for me. The ideology that the hon. Member for New cannot resist giving way to the right hon. and learned Forest East (Dr Lewis) spoke about is very warped. I Gentleman. refuse to call it a Muslim or Islamic ideology, because in no way does it encompass the beliefs that I have. To me, Sir Menzies Campbell: The hon. Gentleman will forgive Islam translates as submission; it is not about torturing me for taking advantage of his good manners. In his people and it is not about killing people of different very careful analysis, does he draw any parallel between faiths. Recognising the three great Abrahamic faiths, the fact that for a long period in the 1930s Nazism was which belong to the book, and calling any of them kufr tolerated—indeed, in some parts of this country, it was is certainly not justified in any way. These people will welcomed—without a full understanding of the philosophy use whatever little snippet they can grab hold of, try to behind it, and the extravagant and extreme fruition of turn the whole thing upside down, and use that as a that philosophy in Hitler’s expansionist ambitions? recruiting sergeant for their ideology. They did not have the right to cruelly butcher Alan Henning. My respects Dr Lewis: I absolutely accept that parallel. Many go to his whole family for what they have suffered. other parallels could be drawn that are similar to the There is certainly no justification for that in any religion one the right hon. and learned Gentleman has made so of Islam that I support, believe in and will continue to perceptively. For example, democracies in the 1930s believe in. faced the twin dangers of Soviet communism on the Before I consider the issues before us, I pay a huge one hand and Hitlerism on the other, which is why it is tribute to the police, not just in Birmingham and the understandable, although unforgivable in retrospect, west midlands where I belong, but across the country, that some people chose to back the Nazi approach in and to the security services, which have done a tremendous preference to meeting what they thought was the threat job over the past decade or so to protect us all from the of bolshevism advancing against the western system of plots that have been mentioned by the Home Secretary life and liberty. and others. That is what they do, day in, day out, and Therefore, one can indeed draw parallels with the they deserve huge gratitude. twin problems that we see now. There is a thousand-year As for the Bill, the first issue that I wish to raise war between Shi’a Muslims and Sunni Muslims. As the concerns the strengthened powers of temporary restrictions hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete on travel and the suspension of passports. A number of Wishart) said in his interventions, as we make our Members have dealt with that point, so I will try to attempts—sometimes misguided and sometimes more make my remarks fairly brief. The shadow Home Secretary sensible—to mitigate the outcomes of such conflicts, we had a significant amount to say about it, and the right should not be surprised if there is a blowback effect, to hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) some extent, on the more volatile elements in the community made some important remarks about it. My hon. Friend here. I think that I have now got his point to his the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) satisfaction. also made some good points about whether legal aid In conclusion, bearing in mind your precept, Mr Speaker, would be granted to the people in question. We need to that one should never have more than one or perhaps look more deeply at the proposal, because, as a number two main points for somebody to take away from a of Members have mentioned, it will leave us in a legal contribution in the House of Commons or any other quagmire. I only wish the Government had taken some public arena, the point that I wish to urge on the more time to consider it. Unless we are prepared to do Government is the same one that I have urged before that, the problems will not be dealt with properly. with the support of—indeed, I should say under the On the subject of passports and people coming into leadership of—the right hon. Member for Salford and the country, I do not believe that we currently have Eccles: we need to face up to the ideology in its purest sufficient border agency staff to deal with the problem. 247 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 248

We need to move forward on that if we are to solve it in head teachers who had been excluded from those schools, any way. It was said earlier in the debate that 500 people deputy head teachers, senior teachers who had been have travelled to Syria—a figure that I do not necessarily excluded from those schools, parents and governors agree with—and that at least half of them have returned. who had been pushed out of those schools. I even spoke If so, where are they? If we had proper passport control to students in those schools. Practices that went on and exit controls, perhaps we would know. Not only are were, for example, boys and girls not being allowed to we missing those people coming back, but we are missing sit together, and the girls being pushed to the back of a huge opportunity to learn from them how they were the classroom so that they would know their place. radicalised, what their points of contact were and what I spoke to one of the parents, who said everything happened. We miss that opportunity at our peril. I was fine and none of that happened. I asked whether welcome the fact that the shadow Home Secretary said any of her children went to the school in question. She that she wanted to reinstate 1,000 border control personnel said that both her son and her daughter went there. I to fill that gap, because it is important that we deal with asked her to ask one of them. She asked her son. He the problem. said, “Yeah, Mum, that happens normally.” The mother I turn now to control orders, if I can call them that. I asked, “Why don’t I see it?” Her son said, “When you was in the Chamber when TPIMs were first discussed, come to school, there’s a different arrangement from and the Government did not really want to listen to the what we normally do in class.” On parents evening, the Opposition or the shadow Home Secretary.Unfortunately, parents were shown the school acting normally, but we are back here now discussing control orders under when they were not present the girls were made to sit at different guises and different names, and there are different the back and the boys in front. protestations about what we are supposed to be doing. The schools had a specific interpretation of music Control orders are a difficult legal issue, but when and art and photographs of the human form or living people are significantly radicalised, it is important to form. The children were even told that if they had try to resolve that problem. We have to start tackling it photographs of their parents or grandparents at home, so that we can stop those people spreading their evil or photographs of other family members, perhaps deceased, ideology and recruiting more people through their presence that was not right and was a crime under Islam. That is in the community. We need to find a proper answer, and what was happening. Many people might see it as we have not had the wherewithal to do that—as has non-extremist radicalisation, but if a school has a child been said, two people under TPIMs escaped. for eight years and passes on such teaching, what happens The Government need to consider security arrangements when the child leaves and goes to college with that overall. The new budget for the security services is ideology fixed in their mind? We need to think about welcome, but the cuts to the police and the forthcoming how we deal with these issues and move forward. further cut of 30,000 people will not help. If we are As part of Prevent, we should recognise that we have saying that TPIMs are important for the safety and a generation of lost young people—a small minority, as security of our citizens, surely we must consider how we the hon. Member for New Forest East said, but still far can best put them into effect. Without the personnel on too many. the ground, it will be difficult for us to do that. I deal now with Prevent. My right hon. Friend the Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): My hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) made a Friend is making a very interesting contribution. Does fantastic point about the work that she has done, particularly he agree that one of the problems—only one of them—is when she was in office as Secretary of State for Communities the high degree of Islamophobia that is reported in and Local Government. I remember a meeting that we many of our newspapers and media all the time? Any had about some of these issues just before she left office. discussion about anything to do with the Muslim The issue that I raised at the time was ideology. On the community rapidly descends into a quite unpleasant subject of Prevent and how these problems are dealt area. This is played out in our communities, schools, with, slashing the budget from £17 million to £3 million colleges and streets, and some young people are forced did not help, nor did giving the responsibility to the into extreme positions because of it. That is bad, but Department for Communities and Local Government, we should recognise that there is a bigger problem which was not bothered about how we dealt the matter concerning perceptions in society, which has to be or how we moved forward, and which did hardly anything challenged. in that respect. We need to consider how we deal with radicalisation through Prevent. Mr Mahmood: I certainly agree that there are issues I welcome the measures placed on schools, colleges, of Islamophobia in terms of employment, but it comes universities, prisons and young offenders institutions. to something when people call me Islamophobic because Those measures will go some way. I had to deal with the of the work I did with the Trojan horse schools. Control “Trojan horse” schools in Birmingham, and found myself of the press is difficult, given the way it sometimes tries in a very lonely place. Everybody criticised me. Colleagues to—excuse the pun—“sex up” certain issues. That is on the Opposition Benches were not happy with what I difficult to deal with and we need a far wiser press to said. I had known for some time that there were issues do that. Trying to further excite the issue of Islamophobia that had to be dealt with. The difficulty for me was that affects the wider community, and we must look at that. they were not in my constituency, but in the end I got There are real issues about how we deradicalise our involved because I thought enough was enough. Somebody young people, and the way to do that is not to allow a had to get involved and deal with them. half-way house—as we have done previously—or look There were clear signs of what was happening in the to non-extremist organisations to hold that place. If classroom. I had taken an interest in such matters they do that, the ideology of the non-extremist organisation before. I spoke to head teachers of those schools, former allows issues to foment; we allow people to get the 249 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 250

[Mr Khalid Mahmood] I am a great defender of our security and intelligence services—I have to be as the Member of Parliament for whole of that ideology into place, and it is then easily Cheltenham. I see a great tradition stretching back to pushed to the next stage. That is my problem when the code-breakers of Bletchley Park. People regard them people say that we can use some of those organisations as absolute heroes for their contribution to surveillance to prevent extremism. We are currently trying to deal and intelligence during the second world war, but with issues in Birmingham, and Channel and Prevent the same people sometimes forget that the self-same programmes have been used with some of those organisation under the new name of GCHQ has continued organisations. through to the present day, and protects our liberties in If we are to provide the safeguards we must consider a vital way. In fact, GCHQ works under a much more the issue. Unfortunately we have had the missing link of comprehensive scrutiny, legal and oversight framework. leadership from within the Muslim community—whether Such a framework did not apply to the Government the Muslim Council of Britain, the Muslim Association code and cipher school during the second world war so, of Britain, or other national organisations that said in a sense, we could say that Bletchley Park was illegal. they represented Muslims across the community—which GCHQ certainly does not act illegally. did not quite deliver that. To save that lost generation, Even my constituents in Cheltenham who work for and future generations, we need a joint effort. We must what is euphemistically called “the office” would be the start ideologically, from the point of Islam, to stop first to say that it is not for them to tell the Government people persuading young people from within the Muslim or Parliament where the line should be drawn between community—including different schools of Sunni, Shi’a liberty and security. It is also not for hon. Members to and other schools of thought in Islam—to be ripped over-respond to the fears of the intelligence and security away from their parents, community and societies. That services in drawing those lines. We must take a measured is the best way to move forward. I would like to discuss view and judgment, and be cautious about where the other issues in the Bill, but time does not permit so I will line is drawn. do so at a later stage. The Labour Opposition and Liberal Democrat Ministers have accepted that the Bill broadly strikes the right 6.27 pm balance, and will support the Bill today. Therefore, it is Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): It is a pleasure right to point out that the modifications to people’s to follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr right to come back into the country with a British (Mr Mahmood) who made a heartfelt speech and spoke passport are not the same as making them stateless, and as an authentic voice for British Muslims in a way that that the differences have been carefully drafted in the extremists of various ideologies do not. Bill; that the new version of TPIMs are not control I often speak in the House on international issues orders, and that there are many differences between rather than domestic home affairs, but it is important to them; and that the data retention elements of the Bill on reinforce the importance of the international context. If IP addresses were not objected to in the original draft we talk about tackling the free flow of potential terrorists Communications Data Bill by, for instance, the Liberal to and from various countries in Europe to states in Democrats. the middle east, and if we ask the Gulf states to stop the There are differences and the safeguards have been flow of funds and support to those organisations, or thought about, but there are serious questions. The former ask Turkey and others in the neighbourhood to stop the Attorney-General, the right hon. and learned Member flow of people across its borders, we must also play our for Beaconsfield, and my right hon. and learned Friend part. It is important that we respond to the new challenge the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), of people going as potential fighters from this country raised some of those questions. They spoke of the and other countries across Europe to play their part in process of temporary exclusion and asked where precisely atrocities and the awful war in the middle east that is it leaves the legal status of those who are temporarily spreading from country to country. excluded or denied passports, and what their rights are We can do that in our own self-interest, not only to challenge those orders. There might be a suggestion because we are legitimate potential targets for Daesh, or in the explanatory notes or the Government’s response IS, or whatever we want to call it, but because it is the that we need not worry, and that processes will ensure right moral and humanitarian response to try to inhibit that the orders are designed only temporarily to interrupt those who would cause such unimaginable brutality, someone’s return to this country, so that they can be and instead to promote peace and an end to the suffering. met either by a person or legal measure designed to That in turn would reduce the need for us to contribute make them less of a threat to the public, but that detail enormous resources in humanitarian, political and even or explanation needs to be in the Bill. Perhaps the military terms to help solve these crises. question whether the phraseology of the Bill is clear enough will be addressed in Committee. The right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) was right to support the Government in The same goes for the questions about TPIMs. Liberty saying that there is a clear and present danger to the and others have suggested that TPIMs reinstate aspects UK from IS, as indeed there still is from al-Qaeda and of control orders that allowed for internal exile, which other similar extremist organisations that pose a threat led to some control orders being declared illegal. They to the security of this country. However, it is important say that that is not just the wrong thing to put into to remember that we have faced terrorism before, and legislation, but a weakness, because it would make the while the dangers may be new and extremely violent, we measures less effective. must guard against over-reacting or reacting in such The Open Rights Group and others have focused on haste that in some way we compromise the liberties we some of the loose definitions in the data retention seek to protect. portion of the Bill. If we follow the trail of what 251 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 252 constitutes relevant data in the Bill through the various (Sir Menzies Campbell) brought out perfectly how legal clauses to the annexes and the explanatory notes, we principles and practical considerations sometimes do find that it is not absolutely clear what relevant data are not quite work out in the way set out in a Bill. in the Bill. Internet providers are not absolutely defined, My final introductory point is not so much a test, so perhaps more clarification is needed and more safeguards but, rather, relates to having a better understanding of need to be built into the Bill in Committee. the paths to radicalisation, something my right hon. There is a slightly deeper question. The House often Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) talked responds to a challenge to security and public safety about. If we ignore those paths and do not understand with legislation, but the response we need is often not a them, there will always be a danger that proposed legislative one. The hon. Member for New Forest East measures will be ill-suited to the problem we are trying (Dr Lewis) and other hon. Members talked about ideology. to challenge. There is good evidence that many young people who go Before saying a few words on the process of radicalisation out to the middle east to take part in these battles are in the UK, I want to thank, like my right hon. Friend not really seduced by any sophisticated form—or even a the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), the perverted form—of Islamic ideology. In fact, they know International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation very little about Islam at all. They are more seduced by and Political Violence at King’s College London, and in attractive slick internet videos, social media and social particular its director Peter Neumann. Its work has pressures from within a peer group who have become shaped my own thinking on this subject. alienated from their own communities. That is not Researchers who have studied the phenomenon of about ideology, but a propaganda war that has to be radicalisation have identified certain key ingredients. fought. The best response to that is not always legislation. These include “root causes” or “grievances”, including The best response may be to understand what mainstream poverty, political marginalisation and exposure to a society needs to feed back to communities and young specific ideology—we have talked about how violent people, and to understand why they are so alienated jihadism seems to offer an answer, or at least an explanation, and why they are being seduced by these social media for that sense of grievance—and what my right hon. techniques. Friend the Member for Leicester East called “peer group pressure” and what social scientists call “social Dr Julian Lewis: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely and group dynamics”. However, this area is problematic, right that these people are not steeped in the religion because there are different types of group and different of Islam, and are receiving a perverted and simplistic types of individual; some act alone, operate differently message. Our side of the argument still needs to be put and are influenced by different means. in a comparably efficient way. I shall give two examples. First, Mohammad Sidique Khan, the leader of the London bombers, whom my Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman makes a right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles reasonable point. My underlying point is that legislation mentioned, became disillusioned with his family and is not always the forum through which we will provide the local mosque over the teaching on arranged marriages. the answers to these questions. He wanted to make other life choices, as is modern and It seems there is consensus across the House that the understandable in a young person, but the initial rejection Bill should go forward, but there are serious questions escalated to the point where he became a violent jihadist to be answered. There needs to be careful examination and bought completely into the Salafist violent ideology, in Committee to ensure that the Bill strikes the right which was then reinforced by group loyalty. The ISC in balance between liberty and security. its report studied that issue in great detail. Secondly, by way of contrast, there is the case of 6.36 pm Roshonara Choudhry, who tried—thankfully unsuccessfully —to murder my right hon. Friend the Member for East Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): Before coming Ham (Stephen Timms). She was a lone wolf, as the on to specific provisions in the Bill, I want to say a few media put it, unconnected to any group; her radicalisation words on the context. Taken together, the provisions took place entirely on the internet. She had a grievance need to be subjected to a number of tests, some of over foreign policy, bolstered by a growing sense of a which have already been debated, to see whether they particular version of Islamic identity, which took on a are a coherent and effective way of tackling the problems violent and ideological character. Those are some of the we have already experienced with home-grown terrorism, things that researchers have come up with and which we and the problems of fighters in Syria and Iraq coming need to take into account. home, which has already started to happen. The hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) The first and most important test, which has been talked about counter-narrative in the context of the discussed but needs to be reiterated, is whether proposed Prevent strategy and was asked about comparisons with restrictive or intrusive measures strike the right balance Nazism in Germany and Marxist-Leninism. I understand between personal liberty and the right to privacy, and the point, but there is a difference: the ideology we are the degree of monitoring and restrictions placed on talking about is intertwined with a particular view of those who are considered to be posing a threat. Islam, which makes it a different kind of belief. Nazism The second test is in some ways more problematic. It and Marxist-Leninism offer particular world views, but relates to the practical and legal framework in which this offers a world view that extends beyond the realms any of the measures must operate to be effective in of the world—if he follows my meaning. practice. The exchange between the right hon. and We ought to acknowledge that perhaps the state is learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) and entirely the wrong organ to propose a counter-narrative. the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife If I were a Muslim in this country, I would resent the 253 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 254

[Mr George Howarth] I started with a principle or a test, saying that the loss of civil liberties on the one hand always has to be state’s telling me what Islam was and what I could balanced against the gains in national security on the believe, as I would were I a member of a Christian faith, other hand. As we have heard, those judgments still a Hindu or any other religious believer. It is not the job cannot be fully made in respect of large sections of the of the state to tell people what views to hold. I agree Bill. I do not oppose its Second Reading and I do not that there is a need for a counter-narrative, but I do not think that there is any move to do so, but a number of believe it is the role of the state to come up with it—and questions remain to be asked and a number of tests certainly not to promote it. remain to be passed before everyone can feel comfortable Part of the Bill deals with the problem of with it, and I hope that those concerns can be laid to communications data, and here I think there is one area rest during its later stages. where a certain part of the private sector could help. I refer to internet providers. Our ISC report last week 6.50 pm referred to an unnamed internet provider that had some information about one of the people who killed Fusilier Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Lee Rigby that was not passed on to the agencies. Here we go again, with yet another counter-terror Bill to tackle yet another threat posed by extremism—yet A paper that came out earlier today from the Quilliam another essential set of measures to keep our nation Foundation made what I think was a sensible suggestion. safe, and to be rushed through at breakneck speed— It said: accompanied, predictably, by yet another escalation of “Private sector companies, particularly social media companies the threat that we are supposed to be experiencing. We and ISPs, can also work to facilitate” are invited to believe that we are surrounded by terror what it calls “counterspeech”, plotters and backers, jihadist bombers, extremists, and just good old-fashioned nutters. No one is safe; threats “in a way that provides deliverables to counter-extremism. These are everywhere. That is why we need this legislation as private companies benefit from supporting counterspeech content quickly as possible, just as we have needed all the other as a means of countering online extremism since it creates a healthier realm of ideas within their platforms and naturally Bills as quickly as possible. There have been seven develops a more hostile environment for individuals wanting to counter-terrorism and security Bills since 9/11, all of use online platforms for extremist and/or terrorist-related purposes.” which have been rushed through Parliament, all of which have been absolutely necessary, and all of which I think that is a good idea, so I hope Ministers and have been fast-tracked. others will think carefully about how those companies can be used if not exactly to promote a counter-narrative, I suspect that this will not be the last counter-terrorism at least to provide space where a counter-narrative can and security Bill. In fact, I do not suspect that it will be exist, and perhaps in some cases even a side bar where the last of the calendar year. I suspect that there will the opposite point of view can be put. be at least one more, perhaps two, and that they too will have to be rushed through Parliament to meet the The final issue I want to cover is TPIMs. The ISC, on escalating threat with which we must deal. As we have which I and other right hon. and hon. Members sit, heard so many times in so many speeches, we live in an raised its concerns about them in two of our annual era in which there will always be an existing, growing reports. In 2012-13, we said: threat for us to address. So what do we do? We do the “The Committee shares the concerns of the Independent Reviewer same things. of Terrorism Legislation over what happens when individual Every counter-terrorism Bill that we have considered Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures…come to the in the House could probably be characterised by a few end of their two-year limit. The Government must take steps now to ensure that they have sufficient policies in place when TPIMs key features that seem to crop up again and again. We have reached their limit and cannot be extended.” must gather, retain and collect vast amounts of personal data from internet service providers. In this instance, In our annual report of 2011-12, we said: internet protocols must be collected just in case we find “The Committee is concerned about the potential increase in something that could be used in the future. That cause the overall risk as a result of the introduction of the Terrorism is very dear to the Home Secretary’s heart, because she Prevention and Investigation Measures (TPIMs) regime.” still hankers after a snoopers’ charter. She would probably My late friend, Paul Goggins, who was also member have her way in the event of a majority Conservative of our Committee, pursued this issue doggedly both in Government next year, because I fully expect it to be our Committee and on the Floor of the House. I would included in any Conservative manifesto. We must continue like to cite a point he made in June 2011: to subject suspects to internal exile, for that is exactly what we are doing. I applauded the Conservatives when “My final point is whether the whole new TPIM system represents the same level of risk as we had with control orders or they reversed new Labour’s control orders—I thought a greater level of risk. I can only assume that the Home Secretary that TPIMs were an improvement—but we are back to believes there is an increased risk from the new TPIM system, what is effectively internal exile. We are working towards otherwise why would she be committing a serious level of resource— depriving people of statehood. We are preventing people whatever that level is—to the police and the Security Service to from travelling, and we are considering home arrest help them deal with the additional work and the additional without trial. It is all the usual stuff. pressures that will result from the new system?”—[Official Report, 7 June 2011; Vol. 529, c. 88.] Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) As ever, Paul showed a sensible note of caution in what (SNP): My hon. Friend may recall that, during the he said at the time, and in view of what has happened last Parliament, 90 days of detention without trial since, he was characteristically prescient in the remarks seemed to be the litmus test of the Blair Government’s he made. machismo. That fell by the wayside, but, in view of what 255 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 256 my hon. Friend has been saying about those seven Bills If we cannot do that, we are not acting responsibly. We and the “groundhog day” aspect of this debate, does he have got to make sure we account for our actions and envisage a return to the “90 days” proposal? see what they led to. I was in the House when we had the debate on the Pete Wishart: I know that my hon. Friend has been Iraq war, as were other Members, and we said what paying real attention to some of the conversations that would happen as a consequence of the Iraq war—an we have been having. That is exactly how Labour behaved. illegal war that inflamed opinion and passions not just What a Government! They established and effectively in communities here, but communities around the world. monitored an anti-civil libertarian state. My hon. Friend We said that there would be a consequence and a is spot on when he reminds us of the proposal for reaction. That has come true. That has happened. The 90-day detention. The one reason for which I applauded reason why we are now having to mop up with this type the incoming Conservative Government was that the of legislation and these types of measures is because of first thing they did was bring about the bonfire of the some of the critical decisions we took, and some of the ID cards and the national database. Is it not depressing appalling and bad decisions we made and are still that they have fallen into their old manners and customs? accounting for. They are almost right back to where the Labour Government were in supporting the creation and maintenance of an anti-civil libertarian state. Hazel Blears: Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise We always get this wrong. At the heart of all these that, in equal measure, the decision not to intervene in counter-terrorism Bills is a critical balancing act. On the events in Syria may also have inflamed the feelings one hand there is our need for security—the need to of some of the people who saw the terrible events make our citizens safe—and on the other hand are the played out on their screens showing what was happening civil liberties that we all enjoy as a result of being part to vulnerable families in those circumstances? of a democracy. Pete Wishart: What I accept is that there was a failure Jeremy Corbyn: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that to recognise some of the international dynamics that one problem is that there is a mentality and a default influence communities in this country. The solution position that anything to do with national security and always seems to be that we have to intervene—that we terrorism has to be dealt with by secretive special courts have got to try to make the world better—and sometimes and a secretive special process, all designed to protect we are unaware of the unintended consequences that the security services from any kind of accountability? come from that. All I am saying to this House is that at Does he agree that we should actually rely much more some point we have got to acknowledge what we have on the basis of the criminal law, so that where people done in terms of framing the conditions and setting the commit criminal acts, they should be tried for that environment in which these things happen. By failing to crime? do that, and by failing to acknowledge that type of issue, we will be hampered in our approach to these Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman reminds me of matters, and the very good things in Prevent and all the the last feature I wanted to include in the list of what we anti-radicalisation programmes will fall and fail, because always see in these counter-terror Bills, which is the very we will have missed out a crucial part of the holistic thing he mentions; it is all about suspicion, and the view we need to take of these things. powers of the Home Secretary and how she will be allowed to exercise them, never testing things in courts, Mr MacNeil: Syria has been mentioned. Last year because the evidence is not substantive enough. It is all the idea was to intervene in Syria on one side, but this to do with this idea that somehow we have got to make year the idea was to intervene on the other side. As we people safe in this country by proposing all sorts of encourage professionals in all walks of life in this country control mechanisms on suspects. If the Government to critically self-assess, my hon. Friend is right to say were serious about this—if they believed and had the that we should be moving towards a point where courage of their convictions—they should take it to Government and MPs and Parliament critically self-assess court and test it in the public court, and give people an what the consequences of our actions have been over opportunity to defend themselves. If someone is subject decades past. to one of these new TPIMs, they have no means to try to fight their defence; they have no access to having that tested in court. The Government talk about how extremism Pete Wishart: Again, my hon. Friend is spot-on. We develops, about radicalisation and about the furthering should be proofing anything we suggest and put through, of ideologies, but when they are doing things like this, it and assessing the impact and effect it might have is no surprise that people might take a jaundiced view and any unintended consequences on communities we about some of the things that happen. represent. If we were to do that, we would start to make I enjoyed the contribution of the hon. Member for progress. New Forest East (Dr Lewis). It was good and there was What does the Bill do? It is specifically designed to very little I could disagree with. Some of the things that tackle the threat posed by the so-called Islamic State, are necessary to tackle extremism are the sorts of things which, according to the Home Secretary, has given he presented, and many of the things mentioned by the energy and a renewed sense of purpose to subversive right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) Islamist organisations and radical leaders in Britain. are also absolutely necessary, but we have got to look at No kidding, Madam Deputy Speaker. What does this ourselves. We have got to look at the decisions we made. rush Bill propose that is different from all the others? It We have got to understand the things we have said, has got all the usual features, of course, because they passed and done that may have inflamed the situation. are the bedrock— 257 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 258

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): The Bill includes the stronger enforcement of TPIMs, Order. If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to deal with including an ability for the authorities to force suspects the 7 o’clock motion, I will come back to him so that he to move to another part of the country, which amounts can complete his speech. to internal exile. There is no great difference between that and the main feature of Labour’s control orders. The Bill also contains curious stuff about colleges and 7pm universities, and the expectation that our higher education The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 9(3)). institutions will prevent individuals from being drawn Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing into terrorism. The measures include banning extremist Order No. 15), speakers from campus grounds. How that is to be That, at this day’s sitting, the Second Reading of the Counter- achieved without massive impacts on academic freedom Terrorism and Security Bill may be proceeded with, though and freedom of speech in higher education institutions opposed, until Ten o’clock.—(Damian Hinds.) is beyond me. I am looking forward to guidance about Question agreed to. how those freedoms will be maintained and guaranteed. Our universities and colleges have already started to raise concerns. I listened carefully to the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies DERERRED DIVISIONS Campbell) who said only yesterday that there was concern Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing about how the proposal would be represented in colleges Order No. 41A(3)), and universities. We have to be careful about how we That, at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred pursue such a measure. divisions) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of Secretary Perhaps most controversially, the Bill contains measures .—(Damian Hinds.) Theresa May relating to Dangerous Drugs to require internet service providers to retain data on Question agreed to. internet protocol addresses to enable authorities to Debate resumed. identify individual users. That brings us neatly to the Question again proposed, That the Bill be now read a ongoing concern about, and the trend towards, the Second time. Home Secretary’s much-coveted snoopers charter. We are all in the business of doing all that we can to keep Pete Wishart: I thought that I was going to get one of the people of our nation safe and secure, but that does my traditional and routine tickings-off from you, Madam not always mean that we must necessarily agree with Deputy Speaker. I am glad that it was just an interruption everything that the Home Secretary says from the Dispatch for the 7 o’clock motion. Box. Some of us might even have a different way of doing things and different suggestions about how to get the balance right between assuring our safety and security Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): It and making sure that there is no compromise on our is the season of good will, Mr Wishart. civil liberties. That is why in Scotland, where we have specific responsibilities on that agenda, we take a different Pete Wishart: I am grateful for the early Christmas view about how it can be better progressed. In Scotland, cheer. we want to ensure that our police and our other public To return to the Bill, what new measures does it bodies have the tools they need not only to tackle and contain? I suppose that its unique selling point is the prevent terrorism but to maintain a community where introduction of temporary exclusion orders. They are a civil liberties are respected and where measures that are relatively new feature, and I do not think that there has introduced are proportionate and have full community been much discussion of them. They are designed to support. We have our own separate and distinct legal ban British citizens who are suspected of travelling system in Scotland, and we have a range of devolved abroad to fight for terror groups from re-entering the responsibilities. We have responsibilities for delivering UK, and they involve the cancellation of travel documents large parts of the agenda in the Bill, particularly on the and the inclusion of such individuals on watch lists and Prevent side. Once again, we have seen an almost total no-fly lists. The Bill allows the cancellation of passports lack of consultation between this Government and the at the border for up to 30 days. The police and border Scottish Government, who have specific responsibilities forces will be able to seize the passports and tickets of for delivering large swathes of the Bill because of devolved British citizens if they suspect that those individuals competencies. intend to engage in terrorism-related activities at their destination. Mr MacNeil: Does my hon. Friend think—this is emerging in his speech—that in the seven Bills he has That all moves us quite conveniently and neatly towards mentioned, and in the responses of both the Labour the idea of statelessness, which we have looked at in and Conservative Governments over the years, the reaction relation to other matters that we have debated in the has been, “Must do something, although we are not House, and which seems to be the drift and the trend. I sure what.”? That seems to be the driving policy. There would be grateful if the Minister would tell me where is not much thought in their policy, but the policy is, we have got with the 30 days issue. I listened carefully to “Must do something.” It is probably headlines driving the Home Secretary’s speech, in which she said clearly the policy. that the Government are in control of allowing people back in. Well, we have heard about some of the difficulties Pete Wishart: That “must do something” feeling has with that. What happens if there is a breakdown of probably increased as we approach an election year. bilateral relationships with other nations that are not The Conservative Government have gone a bit more prepared to play along with the UK’s game? Surely, an cautiously and trodden a little more gently and carefully effective state of statelessness will emerge. into this area than the previous Labour Government. 259 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 260

The Labour Government went all guns blazing straight went out there to help the world become a better place into the Labour anti-civil libertarian state they so carefully and to ensure that communities without help and assistance constructed and made sure they managed so effectively. could be helped and assisted. All of us have a responsibility The Conservatives have played this game a little differently, in this regard, so I will take no lectures from anybody in but we are now into an election year. So what is a good this House about being soft on terrorism or about our move to get people overexcited about political issues? Government taking no interest in this matter. We all What is the approach to take? It is, “Get a terror Bill, to have an interest in this matter. We might not all agree on make sure you are seen to be hard on this. That will everything. I vehemently disagreed with the approach differentiate us, and challenge the Labour party and all of the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles when our political opponents to say we are doing this wrong.” she was in the Labour Government. I was keen on what That is not a game we have a particular interest in the Conservative-led Government were doing at first, playing. but I am less keen now. But let us all work together. We So we have this idea and this conversation we are need to look at this whole thing holistically. We should having between the Government and Scottish Ministers, take responsibility for the things that we do wrong and but the Scottish Government did not even get sight of challenge the horrible extremism and ideology that exist some of the measures in this Bill on First Reading. I in our communities, but let us do it together, do it know that the Minister has been in touch with our new sensibly and do it constructively. Justice Secretary, so he will know the unhappiness there is in Scotland about some aspects of all this. The 7.10 pm Scottish Government have said that because we have Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): It is a responsibility for the public bodies mentioned in so pleasure to follow the speech by the hon. Member for many bits of this Bill, we want proper consultation. We Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), some of are not interested in this fast-tracking and getting it which I agreed with. Let me place it on the record that I through as quickly as possible because it is an election also agreed with some of the things that were said by year—we want to do this right. Where we have devolved the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield responsibilities for delivering this agenda, we want to (Mr Grieve), the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin make sure that the public bodies accountable to our Horwood) and, of course, my Labour colleagues. Parliament will be properly consulted, so that we can shape up and make sure we have proper agenda. We I ask the House to bear with me for a few moments have therefore asked the Minister to take Scotland out while I explain what I did before I became a Member of of the Prevent side of these measures. The schedules Parliament. It is important for the House to know relating to Scottish public bodies have already been where I am coming from when I make the observation dropped in part of this. I suggest, and I hope the that I am about to make. I was a prosecutor for nearly Minister may be open to this approach, that he seeks to 15 years, so I am not shy of having strong laws in the ensure that we at least have the opportunity to engage criminal justice system. I do not have a problem with with our public bodies and consult them properly, and people being prosecuted for crimes that they have committed to make the right decisions that suit our agenda and our and being sentenced appropriately. If people commit a responsibilities. That would be good. Sometimes we serious offence, they should receive a serious sentence. I tend to look at things such as the Prevent strategy in a do not think there is a problem in having laws that deal proper, holistic way, considering how public bodies with criminality. could also promote cohesion, well-being and democracy. I understand the position from which Governments That is the way we differ on looking at these things, and approach this subject. Obviously, they have an obligation we hope the Government follow our approach. and a duty to protect their citizens. That duty must, of Let me say something about my commitment and my course, be balanced with individual rights and civil reason for taking this on. David Haines, the British man liberties. I know that it can be a difficult balance to so brutally executed by ISIS forces in Iraq, was a strike, especially in these challenging times. Perhaps it is constituent of mine. His family were in Perth, and I was at times of pressure that a civilised society can be at the memorial service that was held. His killing was an recognised. When a civilised society loses sight of its appalling act and it brought this right home to my liberties, it is giving in to the terrorists. It is saying, “You community. The way the people of Perth responded to have succeeded, because we have put up all these fences what they had observed—the brutal, appalling murder— and brought in all this legislation.” was nothing short of magnificent. They made sure that I ask the Government to consider the following points. David Haines was properly commemorated and that his On the issue of temporary exclusion orders, there should memory will endure in Perth, and it was fantastic. So I be proper legal and judicial oversight. There should be a know how these issues are brought home to specific categorical commitment that a UK national who is communities and I have seen the wonderful way overseas will be allowed back into the country. At the communities unite to make sure they gather around end of the day, everybody knows that, under international that family, making sure they are supported, and try to law, a person will be stateless if they cannot come back understand. But the most impressive thing for me was to the country of which they are a national. that I saw a real attempt to understand what was going Earlier, I put a question directly to the Home Secretary. on within this—more so than probably the Government As I understand it, she said not that people would be have done. People wanted to understand why this happened stopped from coming back to the country, but that they in our community and what special conditions led to would have to go on a managed programme, by which this happening in a small, sleepy little city such as Perth. she meant that they could come back on our terms and Every single one of us in this House has a job of conditions. The question is, what happens to the person work to do to keep our communities safe and to keep who does not want to accept our terms? We can deal brave people such as David Haines safe. David Haines with them if there is evidence of criminality against 261 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 262

[Yasmin Qureshi] On TPIMs, I agree with the Home Secretary’s new definition involving reasonable probability. The standard them, as we can prosecute and, if necessary, imprison of proof has gone up, but it should be even tighter. them. But what if no criminal allegation can be proved? Provisions such as TPIMs take away people’s liberties What happens then if they want to return? The proposed and they should be able to challenge that. I know that legislation suggests that they can return only on our people can challenge those orders in law. Members terms. I ask the Government to reconsider that concept might not be aware that, interestingly enough, quite a in its entirety. If they want a managed return, the lot of people who challenged their TPIMs in court were person who is subjected to the order should be able to released from those orders, and that was with a very low go to the courts to challenge it. I do not mean the standard of proof, as we call it in the legal system. I am judicial review process, because that is incredibly complex very pleased that the standard of proof will go up and I and the Government have recently passed quite a lot of think that there should be clear judicial safeguards in stringent rules about whether people can have legal aid this regard as well. for judicial review. I now come to my final observations on a point that The process of challenging a managed return order is causing me some concern—the provisional statutory should not be dissimilar to that which applies when framework for universities, prisons, schools, nurseries someone is charged with a criminal offence. They can and so on, intended to prevent radicalisation. It always apply for legal aid, they can go to court and they can makes me uncomfortable when the state tries to enter contest the allegations against them. That element should the arena of monitoring and controlling thought and be strengthened in dealing with people who are excluded. discussion. Other hon. Members have alluded to the Legal aid should be available in a very simple system, fact that some universities are worried that that might allowing people to challenge the orders in the proper prevent the proper, sensible discussion of issues. There courts, as opposed to having to go through the very are many in this country, and across the world at large, circuitous route of judicial review. As a lawyer, I can who hold views that could be called socially or morally tell hon. Members that that is not an easy route. A conservative, religiously conservative, or even radical; straightforward application to challenge orders, such as but there is a big difference between holding socially that which people would make in any other example of conservative views and getting to the stage of committing criminality, is the right way forward. I hope that the a criminal offence—that is a big jump. Home Secretary and the Opposition Front Benchers, Although I will wait to see the Home Secretary’s when tabling amendments to the Bill, will consider the guidelines, I am concerned about another proposal in judicial safeguards. the legislation. If an institution does not carry out what The second part of the proposals involves taking it has been asked to do, or fails to monitor it properly, away people’s passports or travel documents when they the Secretary of State can direct them to do it. It would are travelling. I understand the rationale for that. A be helpful to know what we are talking about in relation father or mother might ring up, saying that their child is to the guidelines. I say this not to criticise, because I travelling across the country and might be heading for know that all Governments, of whatever complexion, somewhere they should not, and asking whether something do this, but when this type of legislation is introduced, could be done. I accept that it might not be possible, in we should have more time to analyse and discuss the the space of a few hours, to get a court order to ensure matters sensibly and get the details. Regrettably, that that there is a legal sanction behind the removal of that has not happened in this case. We have not had enough person’s documents. However, the proposal that the time. I know that three days will be set aside for debate police or law enforcement agencies could keep the in Committee of the whole House, but we really should documents for up to 14 days—even after 14 days people have had more time to discuss the measures in the Bill might only be able to go to the courts for a judicial before it came to the Chamber today. I therefore look challenge—needs to be reconsidered. forward to hearing the Government’s proposals in relation Although there might be an urgent need for such a to libraries, universities and other institutions. provision for the first few hours, or even for a day, the judicial oversight should kick in within a certain time—say Let me move on to my concerns about the state 48 hours—of the stoppage taking place, rather than interfering in thought processes. The provision might 14 days, which is what the Bill proposes if I understand look, on the face of it, very comforting and reassuring, it correctly. Even after those 14 days, the person would but will it actually achieve anything? Will it be effective, only be able to challenge whether the police officer had or are we just bringing in another layer of rules and been diligent. They will say that they are diligent; what regulations without thinking about whether they will needs to be challenged is whether taking away the work? I think that organisations should be told that document was a right and proper decision. We know these dangers exist, and I do not see anything wrong from history that whenever powers of stop and search with sending out guidelines that say, “This is the kind of are introduced, they are always abused and they are thing you’re looking for,” but I think they should be quite often never properly implemented. We therefore voluntary, not statutory. I think that resources should need to be careful about these draconian powers and be made available to help institutions deal with radicalisation how they are exercised. Adding a legal and judicial and extremist views. element to the process is necessary so that we have a Although everybody is talking about radicalisation in balance between protecting the citizen from criminality general, we know that we are talking about a tiny and retaining people’s liberties. I hope that the Secretary number of people who call themselves Muslims but are of State will consider that. At the same time, it is doing things that I can quite honestly say most of us pointless to have rights if people do not have the legal just do not connect with in any shape or form. As the aid with which to exercise them. I hope that that will hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) said, of accompany this. the 2.5 million to 3 million Muslims in this country, 263 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 264 those people number in the hundreds. Many of them As somebody who talks to a lot of young Muslim are young, and most of their information seems to males, let me explain that they are very fearful and come from the internet. frightened at the moment. We see all the headlines in It is right that there should be a counter-narrative. the newspapers about what happened at the school The state should not set up a unit specifically to deal in Birmingham, for example. Yes, what happened at with that, but there is nothing wrong with going into a that school was wrong, but pictures are painted that Department and putting in place funding, for example, every Muslim school in the country is acting in that to look at countering the narratives. Many Members way, or that every single young Muslim male is behaving have talked today about certain institutions that have in a certain way. That kind of narrative is dangerous. been looking at radicalisation, such as the one in King’s Sometimes we in this place need to be careful about college, but there are other people who have looked into what we say as well, because these people are very it who, perhaps because what they say is sometimes a vulnerable. little broader, do not get enough attention. While I have no doubt that people I talk to are not A famous American academic, Professor Kundnani, going to do anything stupid or wrong at all, it is appropriate has looked in detail at all aspects of radicalisation, and to be able to discuss things. In talking about a safe space, one of his suggestions—this is very pertinent—is that in I do not mean that people should be allowed to say universities and places of education there should be things unchallenged, but that we should hear what they spaces for wide-ranging discussion of religious ideology, have to say and then challenge them and tell them that identity and foreign policy. Those spaces should not be they are wrong. Unless we confront people’s difficult undercut by the fear that expression of radical views thoughts, we will not be able to challenge them. That is will attract the attention of intelligence agencies or how we deal with this. Professor Kundnani has suggested counter-terrorism police. If we scare people so that that proper research should be carried out with some of when they come out with some radical or conservative the people who have returned from Syria and other idea they will not discuss it, we will never find out what places to find out their motivation for going there. is going on in their head and never be able to challenge Governments and politicians can certainly do a lot them and say, “Actually, your narrative is wrong.” more to furnish a counter-narrative. As my right hon. A safe space should be allowed for that discussion to Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) said, be had. we should see on the internet a counter-narrative to the other narrative. That is very important. As the Home Mr Khalid Mahmood: When we start to engage with Secretary has said, many imams and scholars of Islam those with radical views that differ substantially from living in this country post on websites and blogs and the views of the general Muslim community and of Islam, clearly state that the stuff that ISIL and others are allowing them access at that level sets us back, because doing is completely un-Islamic. It is important for the instead of putting their views forward, they put the Government and institutions to push what those people whole radical doctrine and ideology forward, which and scholars have written to the forefront of the media, weakens the entire case. We have done too much of that so that the country at large and young people can be here in the past. We need to start to tackle those with very educated by it. different and radical views that need to be addressed. Dr Julian Lewis: That is precisely the sort of role I see Yasmin Qureshi: I am sorry, but I respectfully disagree the Government playing—not setting themselves up as with my hon. Friend. Yes, some people have radical Islamic scholars, but giving support to those authentic views that we would all disagree with, but unless we Islamic scholars who can speak with authority. hear what they have to say, we cannot challenge them. Yasmin Qureshi: I agree. I will finish by saying that I speak to a lot of young people all the time, especially there are people in this country who can help to create young Muslim males, and I listen to what they say. the counter-narrative, which is really important. If we Sometimes they come out with things that do not make sort out the narrative, half of this Bill will not be me think for a minute that they are going to commit a necessary. crime, but show that they have a view about certain issues. I sit there and explain to them, “That is not right 7.30 pm and this is how it should be,” and they listen. That kind of discussion is important, and we cannot stifle it. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): The Home Secretary set out in her opening remarks Jeremy Corbyn: My hon. Friend is making an interesting why she believes it is necessary to introduce this Bill. contribution. Does she think that young Muslims, She referred to the threat level, which has increased, particularly young Muslim men, sometimes feel rather and to the number of terrorist threats thwarted by our patronised because the only concern of the whole world intelligence and security services and the police. She is the danger of their being radicalised? I have had also referred to the need for the Bill’s additional powers many discussions with young Muslim men at mosques to keep this country safe. in my constituency, and in schools and colleges, and My right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, their concerns are jobs, housing, health, and career Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), the shadow prospects. They sometimes feel that they are being Home Secretary, said that we will work with the Home unfairly singled out as a danger to society, when they Secretary: “We agree with her on some things, but we want to make a contribution just like everybody else. do not think she has got it right yet on others, and amendments are needed. Parliament as a whole must be Yasmin Qureshi: I thank my hon. Friend for that thoughtful and responsible, because our liberty and intervention. He will not be surprised to hear that I security depend on each other. We need both in a entirely agree with him. democracy to keep us safe.” 265 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 266

[Diana Johnson] As my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary set out, we have some concerns about aspects of part 1. This afternoon’s debate has been very thoughtful and Strong powers must be accompanied by equally strong responsible. The contributions of Members on both checks and balances, but such checks and balances are sides of the House have been of very high quality, and absent from the Bill. the debate has been very well informed and knowledgeable. That issue was raised by the right hon. and learned The former Attorney-General, the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield, who made a very interesting Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), started with a comparison. He used the fact that a regime was put in succinct but powerful speech. The Chair of the Home place to ensure that there was judicial oversight, originally Affairs Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for control orders and then for TPIMs, to argue very for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), reminded the House of effectively that we need to do something similar for the need for effective scrutiny of legislation and the role exclusion orders. He also made a point about passports the Committee can play in that regard. He was followed and possible claims for compensation, and I hope that by the right hon. and learned Member for North East the Minister for Security and Immigration will respond Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), who is an esteemed member to that. The right hon. and learned Member for North of the Intelligence and Security Committee. My right East Fife also talked at length about exclusion orders hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel and his concerns about interfering with the right of Blears), who is also a member of the ISC and a former return. counter-terrorism Minister, said that the provisions were both necessary and proportionate. We will table amendments in Committee to strengthen part 1. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South I will comment on Members’ contributions when I East asked whether we would do so, and I can reassure refer to specific provisions. The hon. Member for New her that we will. We will also seek information about the Forest East (Dr Lewis) is another member of the ISC, exclusion power, as it is called in the Bill. As my right and he was followed by my hon. Friend the Member for hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary mentioned, Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood), who speaks the Prime Minister originally promised to exclude people with such authority, as a member of the Muslim community, from the United Kingdom, but the Home Secretary has about his own experience in Birmingham, particularly said that the power is in fact about managing the with regard to schools and Operation Trojan Horse. reintroduction of individuals into the UK on certain He was followed by the hon. Member for Cheltenham terms. The process is important, but many questions (Martin Horwood) and it is important to note that remain about how part 1 will work, and about whether GCHQ is in his constituency. I think that all Members the powers will be used proportionately. would want to pay tribute to the security and intelligence services for all the work they do, every day of the week On part 2 on TPIMs, we of course welcome the and every week of the year, to keep us all safe. I think Government U-turn. Having looked at the evidence, the hon. Gentleman is the Liberal Democrat spokesman they are reintroducing relocation powers. The Opposition on this issue and it was interesting to hear him say that have called for that to be done for several years. The last he thought the Bill strikes broadly the right balance. He Tory Home Secretary, the noble Lord Howard, has also noted in particular the support for the data retention called for it, as have both the current and the former provisions. independent reviewers of terrorism legislation. We are therefore very pleased by that change, and we also My right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley welcome the proposals to strengthen TPIMs in various (Mr Howarth), who is a former Home Office Minister ways. and another member of the ISC, spoke powerfully We will seek clarification from the Minister on certain about radicalisation and the work of the International issues in Committee, including the 200-mile relocation Centre for the Study of Radicalisation at King’s college limit and firearms licenses, which my right hon. Friend to inform the debate. We then heard from the hon. mentioned. There is concern about the fact that firearms Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). licensing officers did not know in the past that someone We know, of course, that terrorism has touched Scotland was on a TPIM. in recent years, with the attack on Glasgow airport. Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) spoke with her experience as a Mrs May indicated dissent. prosecutor and her knowledge of her community. I will now briefly refer to the specific contents of the Diana Johnson: I am very pleased that the Home Bill to pick up some of the issues raised in the debate. Secretary is shaking her head, but it would be helpful if Part 1, which deals with exclusion and passports, introduces the Minister enlightened us about why the Government new powers to deal with the emerging threat from feel the need to make a provision specifically about that ISIL—it is known by various names—and the British issue. citizens and residents who have gone out to fight for it. Part 3 is about data retention. We know that telephone The level of the threat is unprecedented, and we accept records have always shown who receives calls and from the need for new powers. whom, and that it has always been possible to link a My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and number to the individual who owns the line. The Opposition Eccles referred, very interestingly, to academic studies think that it is appropriate for equivalent records to be about those who go to fight but then want to return to kept for e-mails and peer-to-peer sharing. this country, and she mentioned the three categories of As my right hon. Friend said, that issue is particularly the disturbed, the dangerous and the disillusioned. That important in relation to the National Crime Agency. It will help to inform our debate on ensuring that the laws has IP addresses for about 20,000 individuals whom it are proportionate and deal with the problems we face. suspects of accessing online child abuse images, but 267 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 268 against whom it has not been able to follow through. I am grateful to all right hon. and hon. Members who We think that this power is urgently needed because, have contributed to the debate. Many of them have until the NCA can get the names of the 20,000 individuals, great knowledge of the subject matter and experience in it will not know how many of them are known sex their communities, which has ensured that the debate offenders, are working with children or are living with has had great breadth and has touched on many issues. children. Those are the most basic checks that should It is notable that we have heard from four members of be undertaken. The case of Myles Bradbury, which the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament, ended in the last 24 hours, should serve as an urgent the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, a further reminder to the Government of the dangers of the member of the Home Affairs Committee, a former NCA failing to follow up on leads. We accept what was Attorney-General and other Members who have great said this evening about the drafting of clause 17. It knowledge, expertise and experience. That has contributed should be looked at to improve the clarity. enormously to the debate. I believe that if we continue in On part 5, we welcome the fact that Prevent is being that vein and with that approach, the Bill will benefit. put on a statutory footing. My right hon. Friend the It is important to underline some of the themes of Member for Salford and Eccles made an excellent the debate, such as the need to ensure both privacy and contribution on that and spoke, in particular, about the security. The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles need for consistency and evaluation. It is important to (Hazel Blears), my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham show that whatever is put in place is working and (Martin Horwood) and the right hon. Member for having an effect. We are concerned that the guidance Knowsley (Mr Howarth) made that point. The two must be made available as soon as possible. Even if the things are not mutually exclusive, and should be mutually guidance is in a draft format, it would be helpful to have reinforcing—one goes with the other. Security brings us it available when the Bill is in Committee over the next liberty, and liberty is basically what we are trying to couple of weeks so that we can see what the Government’s provide and protect through the security arrangements. thinking is on this issue. The issues of proportionality and necessity have also There is, of course, a need for the community to been mentioned, and we believe that they are reflected develop resilience and for us to get into the DNA of the in the measures in the Bill. We look forward to the community, as a number of hon. Members said. The House’s forthcoming scrutiny and examination of those point has been made strongly this evening that the measures. I note that, almost without exception, the Department for Communities and Local Government right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken have has not taken the lead on the Prevent agenda in the way recognised and understood the importance of the powers that the Home Secretary had perhaps hoped. It is in the Bill and broadly supported them, even if some therefore important that Prevent is put on a statutory would like to see further focus and reflection on specific footing. There are lessons to be learned from the experience aspects of them. On a subject as vital as national of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry security, and confronting and combating terrorism and Barr of schools in Birmingham in relation to Prevent the extremism that may lead to it, it is right that the and the duties that will be put on schools. House presents a united front to those who would seek to do us harm. The debate this afternoon and this Finally, the hon. Member for New Forest East gave a evening has done precisely that. thoughtful speech about the need for a counter-narrative The threat that ISIL presents to us is serious, as my at a national level, and my right hon. Friend the Member right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield for Knowsley spoke about how private companies can (Mr Grieve) said, but it is not the only threat we face. be engaged in getting that message out. That area needs There are a range of other terrorist organisations, including to be developed. Boko Haram, al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and In conclusion, this Second Reading debate has been al-Shabaab, and we must also protect ourselves from constructive. It has highlighted where there is support the threat of home-grown extremists who have been for the provisions in the Bill and where changes are radicalised here in the UK. I recognise some of the needed. It has raised a series of specific questions for points that the hon. Member for Perth and North the Government to answer in the coming stages of the Perthshire (Pete Wishart) made, but the threat is not Bill’s passage. We must act proportionately, ensuring static. It is dynamic—it constantly evolves and changes. that the balance between security and liberty is dealt That is why it is right that the Government continue to with properly, and that all the checks and balances are challenge ourselves on what more we can do through in place, in order to secure as much support as possible legislation, but also through other processes such as the for the proposals. extremism taskforce. That is reflected in the Bill. It important to recognise the excellent job that the 7.42 pm police, MI5 and others do in keeping us safe through the actions that they take day in, day out and week in, The Minister for Security and Immigration (James week out. My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham, Brokenshire): In responding to what has been a very who has GCHQ in his constituency, made that point good debate, it is important to underline the context well. I should put on record, as other Members have, and background to our discussions. As the Home Secretary our recognition of and thanks to all those who work so emphasised in opening today’s debate, the terrorism hard to ensure the security of this country. threat to the UK is considerable and as bad as it has Some broader themes were also raised, such as the been at any time since 9/11. That is the assessment issue of counter-ideology and narrative. The hon. Member that we have been given. It is our duty as a Parliament for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood) made to ensure that our law enforcement and intelligence points about ISIL, which is clearly neither Islamic nor a agencies have the tools and powers that they need to state. The extremists who seek to advance its poisonous keep us safe. narratives do not do so in the name of Islam, which is a 269 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 270

[James Brokenshire] it seeks to do to encourage families who are concerned about a loved one or someone they know to have the peaceful religion practised by millions of people around confidence to come forward to talk to someone. That the globe. It is important to underscore that clear may not necessarily be the police—it may be another message from this House—we recognise the threat, but agency or someone from the community—but where ISIL’s narrative is twisted and poisonous and does not there are concerns we should act earlier to prevent represent Islam, which is one of the great religions. someone from moving down a pathway that might lead On the issue of a counter-narrative, a number of them to be radicalised or to want to make the journey Members, including the hon. Member for Bolton South to Syria or Iraq. We must give a clear message that that East (Yasmin Qureshi), mentioned communities standing is not the way to help or assist in that conflict. up. It is important to recognise that 100 imams have On oversight and engagement, I am keen to stood together and signed a letter absolutely condemning ensure that we respond to Select Committees—indeed, I the actions of ISIL and others. That has shown a will give evidence on the Bill tomorrow morning to the community coming together, and it has used social media Joint Committee on Human Rights. The Home Affairs to do so. It has used hashtags such as #NotInMyName Committee will also hold an evidence session tomorrow, and #MakingAStand to ensure that a counter-message and we will respond to inquiries from various Committees is delivered in a way that is likely to reach those who that have an interest in this matter. need to be reached. Of course we want more of that, Today’s main contributions have largely focused on but it is important to recognise the stances and responses the temporary exclusion order and Prevent, so I will that the community has given to confronting and combating concentrate my remaining remarks on those issues. On some of the sheer evil that has been perpetrated, and discussions with our international partners, as the Home how it is making a stand in a direct and powerful way. Secretary made clear in her opening remarks we are actively engaged with a number of countries, and those Keith Vaz: The Minister is making a sensible and discussions have been positive thus far in relation to thoughtful speech and his tone is absolutely right. May practical operations. On the ability of someone to request I put to him a point that I put to my right hon. Friend a return, I point right hon. and hon. Members to the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears)? Has clause 5(1), which states that the Secretary of State any research been done on the tipping point and the “must” issue a permit to return. The concept is of a moment a law-abiding citizen suddenly becomes a radical managed return when a request is made, and the only jihadist? We have a lot of experience in counter-terrorism circumstances in which a permit can be refused is if a and have spent a huge amount of money on the issue. person fails to attend an interview with a police or Are we any closer to knowing where that profile changes? immigration officer. Therefore, the sense that we will deprive people of their citizenship or make them stateless James Brokenshire: This is a complex subject and we does not bear examination, because they will have that cannot point to one individual factor for a specific right to return and the ability to make that request. individual. We can examine the profiles and backgrounds The speedier mechanisms can operate in circumstances of terrorists who have been convicted for their crimes, around deportation. We will seek to cancel someone’s but it is hard to generalise. We can point to individual travel documents and to ensure that they can be put on factors or circumstances that may have contributed watch lists, so that they can be met and we know when over a number of years, and some contributions to the that return will take place. That is our stance. I therefore debate have been about the vulnerability of certain tell my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for individuals. Equally, for whatever reason, some people North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) that we are not have sought to create an identity by allying themselves seeking to say that someone cannot return in perpetuity. to an extremist organisation in some way. There is good As we have made clear, those concerned will have the understanding, but answers will be different for different right to return to the UK. We believe and are confident circumstances and individuals, and it is important to that the measures we propose are compliant with our understand the layers and complexity. Equally, we must international obligations and relevant human rights look at the safeguarding agenda. Our work through legislation. Prevent is to ensure that front-line professionals are acutely aware of identifying any issues, so that people are directed to support and measures and do not progress Sir Menzies Campbell: But an individual can return down the path towards radicalisation and terrorism. We only under the terms specified by my right hon. Friend will continue that important work. the Home Secretary. Can the Minister think of any other occasions or circumstances when the right of Mr Khalid Mahmood: Following on from what my return has had conditions attached? right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) said, a study has been done by Professor Kam James Brokenshire: The power rightly reflects the Bhui of Queen Mary university of 600 people from challenge and threat we see from those returning from London and Bradford—it should have been Birmingham, areas of conflict. They might have been radicalised and but it was not—on a clinical and psychological basis. might have been acting on the instructions of a terrorist That provides a certain way forward although it does organisation. That is why we judge that the power is not address the issue of ideology. necessary. Equally, we know that the power deserves appropriate scrutiny, which I know the House will give James Brokenshire: That is why it is so important that the measures. we continue to see that response from the community We think it is important to put Prevent on a statutory and families. The Home Secretary mentioned FAST— basis to ensure that there is greater consistency in the Families Against Stress and Trauma—and the good work manner in which it is provided. It will also ensure that 271 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill2 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 272 organisations recognise their responsibilities. The measure (4) The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) is about preventing terrorism. It is important to understand be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second column of the Table. the specific frame in which Prevent exists, and to underline Table the work Prevent has undertaken since 2011. It has delivered 180 community-based projects; it ensures that Time for conclusion of front-line officers understand the context; and, in the Proceedings proceedings 2013-14 financial year, Prevent local co-ordinators in our 30 Prevent priority areas worked with more than First day 250 mosques, 50 faith groups and 70 community groups. Part 2, new Clauses relating to Three hours after the Part 2, new Schedules relating commencement of In her opening remarks, my right hon. Friend the to Part 2 proceedings on the first day Home Secretary addressed a concern that has been Part 3, new Clauses relating to Six hours after the expressed about university campuses. Her point was Part 3, new Schedules relating commencement of those that universities’ commitment to freedom of speech and to Part 3, Part 4, new Clauses proceedings the rationality underpinning the advancement of knowledge relating to Part 4, new mean that they represent one of our most important Schedules relating to Part 4 safeguards against extremist views and ideologies. We Second day need to ensure that they take their responsibilities seriously Chapter 1 of Part 1, new Three hours after the and have the basic framework in place. That is what the Clauses relating to Chapter 1 commencement of guidance will seek to enunciate. I hear and understand of Part 1, new Schedules proceedings on the second day the point made on giving greater clarity in the guidance. relating to Chapter 1 of Part 1 It is our intention not only to publish the guidance, but Chapter 2 of Part 1, new Six hours after the to put it out to consultation, to ensure that we receive Clauses relating to Chapter 2 commencement of those of Part 1, new Schedules proceedings appropriate inputs. relating to Chapter 2 of Part 1 To the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire Third day (Pete Wishart), I say that it is the Government’s intention Clause 21, Schedule 3, Three hours after the that the measure will apply to Scotland, on the basis Clauses 22 to 27, new Clauses commencement of that counter-terrorism and national security are reserved. relating to Chapter 1 of proceedings on the third day The provisions will be subject to further consultation Part 5, new Schedules relating and discussion with Ministers in the devolved to Chapter 1 of Part 5, Administrations, which is apt, right and proper. Clauses 28 to 30, Schedule 4, Clauses 31 to 33, new Clauses In conclusion, I reiterate that the threat we face from relating to Chapter 2 of terrorism is real and severe. The collapse of Syria and Part 5, new Schedules relating the emergence of ISIL in Iraq not only threatens the to Chapter 2 of Part 5 stability of the middle east, but presents a clear danger Part 6, new Clauses relating to The moment of interruption in the UK. The Bill will ensure that our law enforcement Part 6, new Schedules relating on the third day and intelligence agencies have the powers they need to to Part 6, Part 7, remaining keep us safe. I hope the House agrees that this is a new Clauses, remaining new matter of the upmost importance. We are seeking to Schedules, remaining ensure that the Bill is passed speedily but not over-speedily, proceedings on the Bill so that there is proper consideration. We believe that the Consideration and Third Reading time allowed in Committee and on Report will ensure (5) Any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings on that the House can do that. We will ensure the swift Third Reading shall be taken in two days in accordance with the passage of this vital legislation, but in a way that following provisions of this Order. enables appropriate examination. We recognise and (6) Any proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not appreciate that the Opposition will, as they have said, previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before do that constructively. We look forward to working the moment of interruption on the second day. with them in that regard. On that basis, I commend the (7) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously Bill to the House. concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption Question put and agreed to. on the second day. Programming committee Bill accordingly read a Second time. (8) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to the proceedings on the Bill in Committee of the whole House, to any proceedings on Consideration or to proceedings COUNTER-TERRORISM AND SECURITY BILL on Third Reading. (PROGRAMME) Other proceedings (9) Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages Order No. 83A(7), from the Lords) may be programmed. —(Harriett Baldwin.) That the following provisions shall apply to the Counter-Terrorism Question agreed to. and Security Bill: Committal COUNTER-TERRORISM AND SECURITY BILL (1) The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House. (MONEY) Proceedings in Committee Queen’s recommendation signified. (2) Proceedings in the Committee of the whole House shall be Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing completed in three days. Order No. 52(1)(a)), (3) The proceedings shall be taken on the days shown in the That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Counter- first column of the following Table and in the order so shown. Terrorism and Security Bill, it is expedient to authorise: 273 2 DECEMBER 2014 274

(1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of: Tackling Corruption (a) payments in respect of the Privacy and Civil Liberties Motion made, and Question proposed Board; , That this House do now adjourn.—(Harriett Baldwin.) (b) expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by the Secretary of State; 8pm (2) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided; Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): (3) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Harriett Tonight’s debate on the Government’s approach to tackling Baldwin.) corruption is timely for a number of reasons. It builds on the progress and leadership given by the Prime Question agreed to. Minister at the G8 and G20. It comes as we anticipate the long-awaited Government report into corruption, Business without Debate which has been delayed for a year but is due out, we understand, later this month. It comes as London is DELEGATED LEGISLATION hosting a conference of 14 overseas territories discussing their approach to corruption, and it comes just a day Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing after changes applying to extraction companies on disclosing Order No. 118(6)), payments came into legal force. The debate is not just timely; it is relevant to London DANGEROUS DRUGS specifically. London is home to more than 250 foreign That the draft Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 7 November, be banks, the most of any financial centre. It is the largest approved.—(Harriett Baldwin.) currency trading centre in the world, processing 18% of cross-border transactions. In 2013, the then regulator, Question agreed to. the Financial Services Authority, estimated that the level of money being laundered through London and the UK was between £23 billion and £57 billion. Indeed, the Home Secretary used the £23 billion figure when she gave a speech to the Royal United Services Institute, which suggests that the Government accept the scale of the challenge. To put those figures into global context, the African Union estimates the cost of corruption in Africa to be $148 billion and the World Bank estimates that up to $1 trillion is paid in bribes. We know this is a serious issue, and that is why it is timely that Parliament should address it. I want to highlight three broad themes. The first theme is resourcing: how to get investigating corruption right; how we give life to the Government’s plan and some of the challenges they face on the transfer of key personnel to the National Crime Agency. Secondly, how do we improve the policy in terms of industry, so that we move from a quantity approach, particularly on suspicious activity reports, to one based more on quality and targeted at the more serious multi-million pound cases rather than low-value transactions? Thirdly, I want to highlight a number of loopholes in the legislative framework, given that there will be the Second Reading of the Serious Crime Bill in the next week or two. On resourcing, will the Minister clarify whether colleagues in the Department for International Development have asked for reassurance on key financial investigators moving to the NCA, particularly from the proceeds of crime unit and the City of London anti-corruption units? Is it the case that, to date, only two of the 35 key investigators have agreed to move across? Such expertise takes time to grow. If we are to have a new plan, there is clearly a risk if the experts are not there to implement it. I understand that, in a letter to the Home Secretary on 20 November, the Bond group of non-governmental organisations also highlighted this issue. Given that police officers do not TUPE across and terms and conditions are less favourable, is the Minister confident that the staff will move across? I understand that in the two years that the NCA has had the intelligence unit, not been a single investigation has resulted from that intelligence. We need to tackle the concerns about resourcing. 275 Tackling Corruption2 DECEMBER 2014 Tackling Corruption 276

Will the Minister update the House on the challenges be repeating past errors? We had a Financial Services of buying in resource, if that is seen as a short-term fix? Authority report in 2011 that showed problems relating The case of Malawi and “cashgate” is a good example. to the money laundering of banks, and two weeks ago DFID paid for a British firm, Baker Tilly, to provide we had an FCA report showing again that small banks expert consultancy advice. The scandal is known as were failing on money laundering. If we go back to the “cashgate”, but we have not recovered any cash. Has 1990s, 23 banks were complicit in money laundering, there been any enforcement? We gave £106 million—a yet no action was taken. significant amount—in aid to Malawi last year. How It might surprise the House to know that over the last much has been spent on the investigation? Is it true that decade, only two fines appear to have been imposed these consultants had no powers to require banks to against individuals for money laundering, the highest of disclose financial transactions or request intelligence which was for £17,500. How confident is the FCA that, from foreign Governments? If so, what are the constraints particularly given the number of foreign banks in the on using external consultants in respect of such UK, we have the right approach to money laundering investigations in the future? even today? For policy reasons, the Government have decided not to pay for law enforcement out of money recovered Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I appreciate the from corruption investigations, but given we have fewer opportunity to intervene. The hon. Gentleman refers to than 100 investigators—in the Serious Fraud Office, the money laundering. In Northern Ireland, over some 30 proceeds of crime unit and the City of London unit—would years of a terrorist campaign, it was clear that paramilitaries that not make sense? It would allow us to conduct more were involved in it. A wealth of experience was built up investigations, which would be in the interests of the by police officers both from the Royal Ulster Constabulary countries being defrauded. and from the present Police Service of Northern Ireland. Will the Serious Crime Bill deal with the evidential If the hon. Gentleman wants to enable more prosecutions test? It appears to be set too high and so acts as a cost for money laundering, does he think it might be a good disincentive to the bringing of cases, which is compounded idea for the Government and the Department to take by the time scales. Where there is a financial institution on some of those officers who have now retired and with a complex, multi-jurisdictional case, perhaps spanning take advantage of their expertise to bring more prosecutions many years, law enforcement agencies have just 38 days for money laundering? to build a case to the satisfaction of the courts to block a payment. That is clearly insufficient. We could learn Stephen Barclay: The hon. Gentleman makes an lessons from and its approach in the Indonesian interesting point about how we learn from other jurisdictions logging case. We need a mechanism of unexplained in other territories. Italy is another example, with its wealth orders to allow law enforcement agencies to stop experience of dealing with the mafia. The hon. Gentleman the clock and allow time to investigate. Does the Minister speaks from experience of the challenges within Northern accept that 38 days is wholly inadequate when it comes Ireland where there is a great deal of expertise, from to building a complex legal case on payments? which we can learn. On the relationship with industry, the suspicious On the fear factor for individuals, the Parliamentary activity report procedure is based on regulatory compliance, Commission on Banking Standards put forward very rather than investigation. The industry pays out millions good proposals, allowing a reversal of the burden of of pounds for document checks on one’s granny in proof, but it is still the case that money laundering respect of low-value transactions, while serious cases reporting officers are often not seen enough within the receive little scrutiny. Of the 316,527 serious activity organisation and, not being at executive level, they reports filed by banks last year, just 110 were looked at often do not control the budget. That risks repeating by the proceeds of crime unit. The banks do not want to past mistakes. Let us look at HSBC and the problems it exit profitable clients and see them go to other firms, so got into in Mexico. To what extent does the Minister we have this defensive filing of suspicious activity reports, believe that the current regime would ensure that at a 95% of which are not acted on by law enforcement group level executives would be liable individually for agencies—they just sit on file for intelligence. It is not fines if similar mistakes were made today? cost-effective. The High Court recently heard with the Nigerian Last Thursday, on the BBC’s “Question Time”, the OPL 245 case, which was dealt with by Lady Justice Chief Whip—the Whip might want to sharpen her Gloster. It reveals a current impediment that applies to pencil—said that Facebook had been aware of intelligence the judiciary, which I would like to draw to the Minister’s relating to a terrorist attack but had not passed it on. attention. In her ruling, Lady Justice Gloster said: Do the Government know whether the 300,000 or so “I find as a fact that, from its incorporation and at all material suspicious activity reports filed by banks include any times, Chief Etete had a sufficient beneficial interest in Malabu”. transfers of funds to people complicit in those attacks? She refers to the well-known case of Malabu, a $1 billion We do not have the mechanism for filtering them effectively. oil fraud. One can only look at that judgment, which Is that an issue of concern to the Government, particularly says that if Etete had the beneficial ownership, he must in the light of the discussion about Facebook? have had it from the point of origin when he was the Oil We need to shift away from this catch-all defensive Minister of Nigeria. That is where the companies in policy to one based on targeting high-value corruption beneficial ownership sat, having been set up in six days cases, and we need to work more in partnership with by a lawyer convicted in the French courts of money financial institutions, and combine that with a greater laundering. Yet Lady Justice Gloster could essentially fear factor in respect of money laundering. Does the adjudicate only over the spoils of that corruption. She Minister share my concern that the current consultation had no power to do otherwise, because neither of the relating to the Financial Conduct Authority seems to parties to the case claimed that the funds were corrupt. 277 Tackling Corruption2 DECEMBER 2014 Tackling Corruption 278

[Stephen Barclay] Let me end by referring to the troubling case of Sergei Magnitsky, about which concern has been raised To what extent would the new plan put forward by the with the Government by Members in all parts of the Government allow the judiciary greater powers where, in House, and on which there appears to have been a its judgment, a case that is being disputed is corrupt? woeful lack of progress so far. The Minister will be well That applies particularly in the arbitration courts, given the aware that the 25-year-old Russian lawyer was tortured lack of transparency often seen in those proceedings. to death in a Russian jail. I know that detailed forensic Of course, non-governmental organisations could act information has been given to the UK Government as a friend of the courts in theory, but cost pressures about British nationals who were complicit in the money invariably make that very difficult, while the likes of the laundering linked to his death, and that information has Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 cannot be used to intervene been provided by Hermitage Capital Management, but unless there is a victim. If in this case the Nigerian the UK authorities appear to have taken no action, Government are not of the view that they have been despite a Back-Bench debate initiated by my hon. Friend defrauded, very little can be done. We need to look at the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), and the way our courts operate in that regard. supported by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and many others. Property is another area. It has been suggested that 45% of London properties valued at over £2 million are Other Governments have given leadership, notably currently owned by offshore companies. The Prime the United States Congress, but there has been a serious Minister has taken some positive measures relating to lack of action from the UK Government in relation to the register of beneficial ownership, but the Minister the proceeds of the tax fraud that was linked to Magnitsky’s must realise that that is null and void when it comes to torture and death. What reassurance can the Minister those properties owned by offshore companies. give that there will be a change of gear, and that amendments will be tabled to the Serious Crime Bill to It is a well-known fact that beneficial ownership is give effect to it? very opaque, especially in the case of shell companies. Estate agents currently have no duties in relation to buyers, and even their duties in relation to the sellers 8.19 pm who are their clients usually extend only to the offshore The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the companies with which they are acting, or their lawyers. Home Department (Karen Bradley): I congratulate my Would the Minister consider a requirement for beneficial hon. Friend the Member for North East Cambridgeshire ownership of property worth over £2 million to be (Stephen Barclay) on securing the debate. I must be disclosed to the Land Registry? She might even want to honest: I will endeavour to respond to the many points consider the imposition of a fine on offshore property- that he has raised, but, given the time that is available, I owning companies that did not wish to comply with the suspect that I shall not be able to address them all. Let disclosure requirement—along the lines of those that me reassure him, however, that my officials and I have were introduced as a result of recent banking regulatory heard everything that he has said, and I have already changes—with the proceeds going to good causes. That asked for a meeting with him to be arranged. I know simple measure could be applied over the next 12 months, that he has great expertise and experience in this regard, and could bring a huge amount of transparency to the and I think it would be helpful to sit down with him top end of the property market, where we know that and explore his comments and their practical implications. money is being laundered. The figures he quoted in his speech show just how Let me now ask some questions about legislation. important it is that the Government tackle this First, will the Minister update the House on the position issue, and I was interested to hear his points about the of the British overseas territories and Crown dependencies, resourcing, having a targeted approach and dealing given the lack of transparency surrounding their plans? with loopholes. That offers a good structure to consider Consultations in the closed 300 this matter by. days ago but nothing has been reported, and the same This Government recognise that corruption harms applies to the Cayman Islands. Secondly, it is feared society, undermines economic development and threatens that industry guidance might fetter the effectiveness of democracy. The impact of corruption is disproportionate new United Kingdom law relating to the transparency to the level and the frequency at which it occurs in the of payments to Governments for the extraction industry. United Kingdom, and often has serious ramifications A QC’s opinion recently raised concern in that regard. in terms of public confidence across the public and Will the Home Office be making any representations to private sectors. I want to make it clear that the Government the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on are totally and absolutely committed to tackling corruption the subject? in all its forms. As my hon. Friend highlighted, this Thirdly, will the Government make it a condition that Government are doing more than any before to tackle the countries to which we give aid comply with the the blight of corruption both here in the UK and United Nations convention against corruption? In around the world. In our serious and organised crime particular, will they provide global leadership in requiring strategy, which we published last year, we set out what the publication of asset declarations on politically exposed the Government are doing to improve our anti-corruption persons? The UN has pressed for that, and I do not systems and to stop organised criminals using corruption understand why we are giving aid to countries without as a tool of their trade, and in our open government expecting them to comply with the convention. Fourthly, partnership national action plan we acknowledged that, will the United Kingdom introduce administrative orders, although the UK already has good structures and legislation such as those introduced by Switzerland and , in place, there was more to do to improve our standing so that we can rapidly freeze assets in post-revolutionary at home and better manage our reputation for dealing circumstances? with corruption and bribery offences overseas. 279 Tackling Corruption2 DECEMBER 2014 Tackling Corruption 280

As part of that work, we committed to publishing a Stephen Barclay: The measures that the Government robust cross-Government anti-corruption plan that will have taken on beneficial ownership are hugely positive, bring greater co-ordination and coherence to the work but does the Minister accept that if almost half of all that is already ongoing and the work we plan to take, property in London worth more than £2 million is from preventing corruption in the first instance to taking owned offshore, the measures will not provide transparency effective enforcement action when it arises, as well as on beneficial ownership? Does she agree that property increasing the protection of the public and private is a particular opportunity for the Government to extend sectors. I am pleased to tell the House that we will their reach? publish that plan very shortly. My hon. Friend is also aware that the Prime Minister Karen Bradley: My hon. Friend has highlighted a recently appointed my right hon. Friend Minister for powerful fact, which brings home the challenge that we Business and Enterprise as the Government’s anti- face. I would appreciate it if we could cover that point corruption champion, and he and I have been working when we meet outside this place. together across Government to ensure that the commitments The Government have taken steps to strengthen the set out in our anti-corruption plan are fully implemented law enforcement response to corruption. Last year, as I and make a real difference to some of the points that have said, we established the National Crime Agency to my hon. Friend raised tonight. manage the overall law enforcement response to serious It is also important to recognise, however, that we and organised crime, including bribery, corruption and have not simply waited to publish a plan before starting associated offences such as money laundering. We have work on these important issues. We already have some introduced measures to create a new offence of police of the most comprehensive anti-bribery legislation in corruption, and the Home Secretary has asked Major the world, and were recently recognised as one of only General Chip Chapman to chair a review of the police four active enforcers globally by Transparency International, disciplinary system. one of the leading non-governmental organisations working The Government have also provided dedicated funding in this area. Where we have found gaps in the legislation, for UK law enforcement units to investigate illicit financial such as in relation to police corruption, we have brought flows to the UK, which are linked to corrupt foreign forward new measures to address them. My hon. Friend officials from developing countries. My hon. Friend referred to the Serious Crime Bill, which has been talked about funding from the Department for International through the other place and which will shortly receive Development for the various units, and he is right to its Second Reading here—at some point. In working highlight the importance of ensuring that we have a through that Bill, we will be able to debate again many dedicated force working in that area that does not of the points raised and we will be able to look at how duplicate effort. In such a way, we can ensure that we we can tighten our legislative framework as much as get the most effective response from law enforcement possible. specialists, who really know what they are doing and are My hon. Friend talked about transparency, which is first-class professionals in their field. That approach is also a key tool in the fight against corruption, and this recognised internationally as highly successful and Government have put transparency at the heart of our innovative. Todate, those units have restrained or confiscated approach to reducing the opportunity for corruption. more than £120 million of stolen funds, and further As my hon. Friend will know, measures are being taken investigations and confiscations are under way. Our through this House to establish a publicly accessible enforcement response must be the best that it can be, so central register of company beneficial ownership. This we are reviewing the overall co-ordination and effectiveness will ensure that law enforcement and tax authorities of the UK’s enforcement response to cases of bribery have access to the information that will help them to and corruption. That work is ongoing, and Ministers tackle corruption, tax evasion and the laundering of the will consider the findings in due course. proceeds of crime. In my own professional experience before I came to this place as a tax accountant, beneficial My hon. Friend raised points regarding Malawi, and ownership was one of those phrases I used on a frequent I would appreciate it if we could discuss that point basis and was a great fan of. It is important to reiterate further. If he can provide detailed information about that the UK made beneficial ownership a cornerstone individuals who might be involved, or any other of our G8 presidency in 2013, so that we can tackle tax information, it would really assist us in our work. evasion and fraud and promote greater transparency of [Interruption.] He is making comments from a sedentary company beneficial ownership. position, but I am sure that if we discussed the matter, it Despite comprehensive international rules to prevent would assist us all. money laundering being in place, we recognise that I am conscious of the time, so I will quickly cover the some financial institutions failed to comply effectively suspicious activity reporting regime, which is a significant with the requirements placed upon them, and we are part of our work. Suspicious activity reports are a determined to be a global leader in this space by taking crucial source of information for law enforcement agencies, forward legislation to ensure UK companies know who and they provide a mechanism for financial institutions ultimately owns and controls them and that this information and others in the regulated sector to obtain a statutory is made publicly available. I think we can all agree that defence from a money-laundering prosecution when greater transparency about who owns and controls our they report their suspicions and are granted consent to companies should make it more difficult to conceal an proceed with a transaction by the NCA. As someone individual’s involvement in a company, and should act who has worked in risk management at one of the as a deterrent to crime. The points that my hon. Friend major accounting firms, I remember the joys of having has made about ownership of property and other assets to deal with such things, so I understand the criticism are vital if we are to stand as a world leader in tackling that my hon. Friend’s has highlighted. The economic corruption. crime command in the National Crime Agency is working 281 Tackling Corruption2 DECEMBER 2014 Tackling Corruption 282

[Karen Bradley] on Financial Recovery—conference about Arab countries in transition, it brought home to me the importance of with banks. The Home Secretary and I attended a making sure that we have the information that we need business breakfast hosted at the Bank of England to to enable us not only to restrain those assets but to seize kick off the work that we are doing with the financial them, and to return them to the countries that need the institutions to find appropriate and acceptable ways to money. help them to deal with the bureaucracy of SARs. My I hope that my hon. Friend will acknowledge the hon. Friend made an important point about the profile work that the Government have done to tackle this of the issue, and all financial institutions need to raise important issue, and the improvements that we have the profile of the issue internally and see it as a key part recently initiated. I note the issues that he has raised, of their own mechanisms for dealing with corruption and I hope that our forthcoming measures will go some and bribery. way towards addressing them. I look forward to debating My hon. Friend mentioned the proceeds of corruption, the matter further with him. and there is much that I could say on the matter. Given Question put and agreed to. the time, I will simply say that he made an important point about dealing with pre-regime changes and changes in regimes in other countries. When I attended, on 8.30 pm behalf of the Government, the AFAR III—Arab Forum House adjourned. 51WH 2 DECEMBER 2014 Benefit Sanctioning 52WH

done to improve the system. I hope the Minister will Westminster Hall treat that work by people on the front line as seriously as it deserves to be treated. I make it absolutely clear at Tuesday 2 December 2014 the outset that neither the report nor my contribution opposes the principle of sanctioning within the benefit system. Applying sanctions to those who are deliberately [MR GEORGE HOWARTH in the Chair] not seeking work, who are unavailable for work or who have no intention of working can disincentivise such Benefit Sanctioning behaviour and, in combination with the right support Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting and training, can help people on the road to getting a be now adjourned.—(Mr Wallace.) job that provides not only an income but self-esteem, purpose, socialisation and accomplishment, but—and 9.30 am it is a very big but—any sanctioning regime has to be Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure humane. The Sheffield Citizens Advice report clearly to introduce this debate under your chairmanship, shows that there is an increasing number of incidents Mr Howarth. where the system is neither humane nor—this is During the September recess I organised a community important—serving its stated purpose of getting more consultation across my constituency. With 63 meetings people into work. In fact, the system is having the over three weeks, the consultation raised a wide range opposite effect in many cases. of issues. A dominant theme from some of my most Some of the stories outlined in the report will be all vulnerable constituents, and from those in the voluntary, too familiar to hon. Members. I will briefly share the community and faith sector who work with them, was experiences of a couple of my constituents that are not the impact of benefit sanctions. I cite the example of detailed in the report. One constituent prefers to remain the Cathedral Archer Project, which works with the anonymous, so I will call her Mary. She was made homeless. The project has been visited by Ministers and redundant from a job as a cleaner, so she had to sign on is held up as a model of good practice in taking people for the first time in her life. She was told by an officer at off the streets and getting them back into society by the jobcentre that her next appointment with a job giving them skills and a home. The project’s work has adviser would be on her signing-on day. She was told been fundamentally changed by the response that some that there was no need to come in and sign on in the of its clients receive when they start— morning because she could do it when she came in for her 3 pm appointment. That information was wrong: The Minister for Employment (Esther McVey): I had the job adviser appointment was two days before Mary’s the same cough. signing-on day. We all make mistakes, but it is simply and clearly not right that Mary, who had gone to the Paul Blomfield: I didn’t catch it from you, Minister. jobcentre for help to find a job, was punished for the Some of the project’s clients, in their first home, will officer’s mistake. It was an honest mistake, but it was a suddenly receive a letter that they either cannot read or mistake, and she faced the consequences. Mary had to do not understand, and they will therefore miss an borrow money to get by, and I am pleased to say that appointment and find themselves sanctioned, out of she is now back in work with a cleaning job, but she got their home and back on the streets. They go to the there despite the system, not because of it. jobcentre and are told, “Go along to the Cathedral Mary understood what she needed to do, but she was Archer Project. They will feed you.” That transforms wrongly advised. There are plenty of examples in the the role of an important local charity from making a Sheffield Citizens Advice report of people who are not strategic intervention to help people off the streets, into clear about what is expected of them: homes and into work to just being a crisis centre. “Alan was givena4weeksanction for not actively seeking I am pleased to have secured this debate to raise such work. Because of his limited literacy/numeracy skills he had been concerns directly and to make some practical proposals enrolled for an 8 week course in English and Maths. He thought on how the Government can address the issue. Much of that as he was taking this course he did not need to complete his what I have to say is based on the work of Sheffield work search book for that period.” Citizens Advice, which is a great organisation that That was an honest mistake. The report continues: provides vital support to people across our city, finds “Tony is in his mid 50s and is vulnerable because of his solutions and supports people in complex situations. In learning disabilities and dyslexia. He can’t read or write. Despite doing so, it saves public money by averting crisis further the fact that he gets significant support with looking for work down the line. In May, the organisation’s social policy from a local Job Club, he was sanctioned for not doing ‘enough’ group produced a report on the experience of jobseeker’s jobseeking.” allowance sanctions based on the previous 12 months. I Another constituent, coincidentally also called Tony, am pleased that the report’s author is in Westminster for thinks he was sanctioned because the activity on his today’s debate. The Department for Work and Pensions Universal Jobmatch account was considered too low by received a copy of the report when it was published, and the jobcentre. I say that he thinks that was the reason it has been in correspondence with Sheffield Citizens for his being sanctioned because he has not yet been Advice. I sent a further copy to the Minister before notified of the reasons for the sanctioning. Tony is today’s debate so that we can properly consider its eager to find employment and has completed an IT recommendations. course through the jobcentre to help him find work I must stress how helpful it is for such evidence to be online. He does not have access to a computer at home, gathered and presented so clearly by those working so he spends much of the day at the central library directly with the people affected by Government policy, waiting for his turn on the computer to show activity on with concrete recommendations about what can be Universal Jobmatch. That is in addition to going to 53WH Benefit Sanctioning2 DECEMBER 2014 Benefit Sanctioning 54WH

[Paul Blomfield] it made some important suggestions about how communications and processes within the JSA sanctioning workplaces in Sheffield looking for work, but he has system can be improved. been sanctioned. As a result of that sanctioning, he I will not go into details, but a key point to take from has been referred to the Salvation Army food bank in that review is the lack of understanding between the my constituency. claimant and the jobcentre. That chimes exactly with The question is whether sanctions are the right response what Sheffield Citizens Advice is saying: too many to such situations, and not only because of their impact claimants are not being adequately or appropriately on people. Will they actually bring about the behavioural informed of what is expected from them in the first change that they purport to seek? Might the sanctions place. They are not being informed about what they hinder, rather than help, the people who are affected? have done wrong when they have been sanctioned, and how to avoid the situation happening again. David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on obtaining this debate. The The Sheffield Citizens Advice report chimes with the emphasis should be on how we root out those who are points that Matthew Oakley made. It says: abusing the system. If the sanctions are harder on some “A common experience is that they realise that no money has people than on others, how do we get a mechanism that been paid into the bank first and then later get a letter stating that will root out those who are abusing the system by not their benefits have been stopped.” turning up for appointments? When I speak to benefits Will the Minister say what school of behavioural economics centres in Northern Ireland, they tell me that a large that sort of approach comes from? If a jobseeker does number of people are abusing the system. How do we not understand the agreement that they have entered get a system that provides a level playing field for all? into, how does sanctioning achieve its aim, and how can sanctioning serve as a disincentive if a jobseeker does Paul Blomfield: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s not know what behaviour triggers a sanction? point. There are people who take advantage of any Perhaps Tony, whom I mentioned earlier and who is system, there are people who avoid their tax obligations, mentioned in the report, was told that he needed to do and so on. The point I am seeking to make is that if we more jobsearching, or perhaps he was sent a letter to design a system with the stated objective that he describes— that effect. That might be the case; I am not clear on supporting people back into work and taking sanctions that point. However, I know from talking to other against those who deliberately avoid it—we have to constituents that such letters have led to sanctioning measure the effectiveness of the system against its stated when they have not been responded to properly. The objectives. My contention is that the operation of the problem is that Tony cannot read; he has learning system is failing that objective, so I ask myself why disabilities. He wants to work, but in that context the these seemingly illogical sanctioning decisions are being letter is meaningless, so what is the Minister doing to made. ensure that jobcentre staff are sensitive to such barriers—the Coincidentally, last Thursday I was out knocking on barriers that claimants face in engaging with them? As I doors and meeting constituents, and I knocked on the have said, it is positive that the DWP has responded to door of a jobcentre worker. She described to me a range the Oakley review by setting up a specialist team to look of issues that she faced in her daily work. I happened to at communications, but I would be grateful if the right mention that we were having this debate this morning, hon. Lady updated us on the work of that team and and she immediately responded by talking about the outlined exactly what has changed as a result of pressure that she and her colleagues felt they were being its work. Will she also address some of the other put under to impose sanctions. recommendations in the report when she responds to That is a serious point. Indeed, in a survey of staff the debate? within the Department of Work and Pensions that was Many claimants tell Citizens Advice that they were conducted by the Public and Commercial Services Union, not aware that they had been sanctioned until they 23% of union members surveyed said they had been contacted the jobcentre after finding out that they had given explicit targets for referring claimants for sanctions; no money in their bank account. Subsequent decision 36% stated that they had been placed on a performance letters are often poorly worded, and without a clear improvement plan for not making enough sanctions explanation as to the misconduct that led to the imposition referrals; and 10% said that they had gone through poor of sanctions. I urge the Minister to respond to the performance procedures for not making enough sanctions following proposals to address this issue: the wording of referrals. decision letters should be reviewed, so as to provide I know that the Government will say that there is no more detailed information about what led to the sanction, pressure to sanction, but the DWP acknowledges that and to give information about the possible knock-on statistics on sanctions are collated centrally and that consequences of not responding to the decision letter; a local jobcentre managers will be contacted if their sanction should not be put into effect until the decision performance is out of line with that of other jobcentres. letter notifying the claimant has been sent and a reasonable If this is a matter of good management, and no league time for it to be delivered has passed; and notification tables are being compiled and no targets are being set, letters should clearly inform the claimant of their right why is a lower level of sanctions seen as a sign of poor to challenge the sanction, explaining how to do so and, performance by a jobcentre manager? where appropriate, how to access hardship payments. Turning to how the situation can be improved, I start I say that because the Sheffield Citizens Advice report on a positive note. The Government’s independent review details how sanctions are often imposed because claimants of jobseeker’s allowance sanctions carried out by Matthew failed to carry out agreed steps or activities even though Oakley was certainly a welcome step. Although its remit many of them face barriers—through language, caring was limited—I will come on to that point shortly— responsibilities or health problems—that mean they 55WH Benefit Sanctioning2 DECEMBER 2014 Benefit Sanctioning 56WH could not reasonably have carried out the agreed steps. Can he imagine why the evidence on the ground that he That is an important point: they could not reasonably is presenting falls so far short of the Government’s have been expected to respond. Other claimants do not obvious intent? understand what has been agreed and, according to the report, jobcentre staff are not aware of the genuine Paul Blomfield: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his barriers that some claimants face. intervention and I will come to that point; often a part I urge the Minister to respond to the following proposals of the communications breakdown is people’s lack of to address this situation. First, jobcentres should make awareness of the hardship payments that they are entitled claimants aware that they have a say in the content of to. The Government have to deal with precisely that jobseekers’ agreements, and that this is a two-way process issue as part of the challenge. that should have claimants’ full engagement. It is supposed In the time I have left, I want to stress the inhumane to be a partnership leading people into work. Claimants nature of some of the sanctioning I have referred to. It should be made aware that they have a right to have the is clear that, if claimants do not understand agreements, agreement reviewed if they are not happy with the they will not keep them and sanctioning will not have its content. desired effect as a deterrent against non-jobseeking. Secondly, jobcentres should take whatever steps are necessary to be certain that all relevant factors that Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): On the point could possibly act as a barrier to work have been taken raised a moment ago, my experience is that some people fully into account when deciding on the content of a without dependents or without other needs do not get jobseeker’s agreement. I have already cited some of the hardship payments. In Scotland, we have the Scottish barriers that exist. Thirdly, jobcentre staff should be welfare fund—our equivalent of devolving responsibility invited to awareness training about the practical and for hardship payments to local authorities—but authorities specific difficulties faced by some claimants; those difficulties were telling people, at least initially, that those who had may be learning disabilities, mental health issues or been sanctioned could not apply for help from it. language barriers. I make this proposal because the Minister will agree that without workable, reasonable Paul Blomfield: I thank my hon. Friend for that and well-understood agreements between jobcentres and important clarification. Although hardship payments claimants, the process is bound to fail, and if it fails it are available to some vulnerable groups—as I said in will clearly cause extraordinary hardship. I visited a response to the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve food bank that I helped to establish in the heart of my Baker), there is a problem even there, and communication constituency. The increase in the demand for its services is breaking down—there are many groups to whom is in significant part due to the increase in benefits payments are not available. One recommendation, which sanctioning—the same is reported by other food banks the Minister should address, is that access to hardship across the city. payments should be given to all householders, not just those in certain defined groups. Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. In my constituency, Sanctioning is not only ineffective in many circumstances, Compassion in Action provides a food bank that covers but deeply damaging. That is particularly the case when the whole of Wigan. The charity’s statistics show that it has a knock-on effect on housing benefit and council 37% of the people who go there do so as a result of tax support for those on the lowest incomes. A claimant being sanctioned. One individual who had gone to the and their family can soon find that they face rent food bank had actually received training for a month arrears and that they are unable to pay basic bills. In the with a guaranteed job at the end of it; he had found that case of council tax, non-payment is punishable by job himself. His employer was willing to say to jobcentre imprisonment. staff that he needed the individual there every day that Often, people find themselves in that situation without month, but the individual was sanctioned for that month adequate warning, so they have no time to plan for the and Compassion in Action kept him fed. shortfall. Emma, another Citizens Advice client mentioned in the report, came very close to losing her home as a Paul Blomfield: I thank my hon. Friend for that result of the knock-on impact of a JSA sanction. Sadly, intervention, which echoes many reports I have received she is not alone. When margins are tight, the slightest from the food banks in my constituency. The desperate change in income can trigger a downward spiral into level of hardship that we are talking about needs to be deep money problems. The system is not designed for understood in the House. We understand that food that, and rightly so—how would someone in such dire banks provide a weekly food parcel, but when I recently straits be able to find a job? spoke to colleagues at the S2 Food Bank in Sheffield, The DWP agreed to change its IT software and they pointed out that they were now receiving demand amend the notification sent to local authorities when a for food parcels containing cold food that would not sanction has been applied to allow housing benefit to require heating; people did not have enough money continue without interruption. Action on that was promised not only for food but for basic fuel supplies. People are by the autumn, but it is now December. Can the Minister living in houses or flats illuminated by candles and assure us today that that relatively minor change, with eating cold food provided by food banks. That is desperate the potential to make a substantial difference to the hardship. lives of some of the poorest people in our communities, Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I am deeply troubled is happening or is imminent? by some of the substance of this debate. The hon. Will the Minister respond to the report’s proposal Gentleman will know that the Government argue that that all households, as I said a moment ago, have nobody should go without essentials as a result of a immediate access to hardship payments to avoid the sanction, and that they should receive hardship payments. situations I have talked about? Will financial redress be 57WH Benefit Sanctioning2 DECEMBER 2014 Benefit Sanctioning 58WH

[Paul Blomfield] its stated intention? Why is there no performance evaluation of the system against that criterion? There is no shame considered where a sanction is found to have been in that, whatever the answer—even if it is that, no, the incorrectly applied, resulting in significant consequences system is not proving effective. However, we need to and distress for those involved? know the answer as policy makers; if we do not even There is much more to be said on the issue, and I have ask, we are showing enormous contempt for the people asked the Minister a number of specific questions. I whose lives are being dramatically affected. I hope the want to end with one point. Minister will give us a commitment on that today.

Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): Before my Several hon. Members rose— hon. Friend finishes, will he tell us whether the research found evidence of people having to resort to payday Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. It might be lenders or loan sharks to get over the immediate problem helpful before we proceed any further if I point out that of a lack of cash? Did that then create problems for I intend to call the two Front-Bench spokespeople at them further down the road because they had lost a lot 10.40 am to begin the winding-up speeches. I do not of their ability to pay back those loans, even when they intend at this point to impose a time limit on speeches, had been wrongly sanctioned? but, depending on how things go over the next few minutes, I may decide to do so. Paul Blomfield: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and for the great work she has done as 9.57 am Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, along with Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): One of the things the other members of the Committee. She is right to that has troubled me most in my parliamentary career highlight the link between benefits sanctioning and has been when serious allegations have been made payday lending. As she will know, payday lending is a about the unintended consequences of benefits reform. concern to me. With colleagues from all parties in the In some cases, it is alleged that it has led to people’s House, I introduced a private Member’s Bill on high-cost deaths. credit. In the Library brief, I read an article from The I have subsequently worked with colleagues on the Independent about the cases of Mark Wood and all-party group on debt and personal finance to push David Clapson. Mr Wood died. He had a number of the Financial Conduct Authority to introduce effective mental health problems and was found starved to death. regulation of payday lenders, and I am delighted that Apparently, he thought that he deserved only £40 a we have made some progress on that. However, that is week, and when a member of his family gave him only part of the solution. We are dealing with the money, it is alleged that he gave it to charity. Mr Clapson consequences of poverty—people resorting to payday also died. He was a former soldier and a type 1 diabetic. lenders—but not the causes, and one of the most significant It is said that his benefits were cut. The article says: causes is benefit sanctioning. I am therefore pleased “He had no food in his stomach, £3.44 in the bank and no that my hon. Friend raised that point. money on his electricity card”, so he could not run the Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) “fridge where he kept his insulin.” (Lab): I apologise to my hon. Friend for being a little late. Is he aware of the evidence from Oxford university, Those are appalling cases. The DWP has apparently which shows that one in four JSA claimants who are said of Mr Wood: sanctioned leave JSA and that more than half of them “The coroner attributed Mr Wood’s eating disorder and food do not get into work? Using sanctions to get people into phobia as the likely cause of his death” employment has therefore proved ineffective. and Mr Clapson had not appealed or applied for a hardship payment. In the system set up to help such Paul Blomfield: I was not aware of that research, so I people, it may well be that unforeseen circumstances am doubly grateful to my hon. Friend for her intervention. arose that led to the deaths of both those men. That makes the point powerfully that the sanctioning The Government explain that the majority of claimants regime is failing to achieve its stated intention. Even do not receive a sanction and that vulnerable claimants leaving aside the hardships and all the consequences of can receive hardship payments immediately if they are sanctioning, we still need to look carefully at the issues I sanctioned. It seems to me that in the cases of both have raised because of the failure of sanctioning to Mr Wood and Mr Clapson, there should have been meet its stated objectives. immediate hardship payments, if not a suspension of So far, the Government have resisted calls from the the sanction in the first place. Work and Pensions Committee, Citizens Advice and Why do such decisions get made? First, it is because others for a full review of the sanctioning system. I have the state is not an instrument of compassion and kindness. commended the work of the Oakley review, but that In the end, it is an instrument of rule following and focused only on the practicalities of the current system. coercion. Something is going on in the system when the I understand the Select Committee is conducting its Minister’s and the Government’s good intent, which I own inquiry, which I strongly welcome, and I am do not doubt for a moment, goes through a set of rules, sure Citizens Advice and many others will engage fully procedures, structures and bureaucracies that ultimately with it. leads to some edge cases in which people may even die Why, however, are the Government refusing to address as a result of the system. Why does that happen? one fundamental question: is the sanctioning system The other question is why people working within the proving effective at getting people into work, which is system allow these things to happen in front of them. I 59WH Benefit Sanctioning2 DECEMBER 2014 Benefit Sanctioning 60WH have observed that people with the least are often the enough sometimes just to send a letter—if people cannot most generous, and those who are the closest to human cope with life, they will not open their correspondence. suffering usually feel the most for the people they see Secondly, how can we expand the capacity of individual suffering, so why do these things happen? I am afraid members of staff to exercise their personal moral judgment that I found myself turning to the Milgram experiment, in cases, so that we do not end up with a type 1 diabetic which gave a psychological explanation of why people with no money to pay for the electricity to keep the obey authority. It is just a fact—this has been shown fridge on for his insulin? I suggest that all staff should repeatedly—that people will obey the rules far beyond have a duty to inform claimants of their right to appeal their personal morality regarding the consequences. I and to apply for hardship payments. ask the Government to think about how the incentives I am absolutely sure that the Government intend to for staff could be changed to allow their personal drive people into work, and that is right. If people can morality to flourish in the system, so that the small work, they should work; it is good for them and it is minority of cases that are clearly illogical and wrong good for society. I am also absolutely sure that the never arise. Government intend to bring hope to people who are It has been pointed out that the vast majority of without it. I just hope very much that we can deal with decisions are correct. In the 12 months to June 2014, all the issues around the edges and set up a system of decision makers considered 1.76 million JSA cases welfare that works for everyone, all the time. and imposed 850,000 sanctions or disentitlements, but fewer than 15% of those decisions were changed on reconsideration or appeal. Some 15% were changed 10.5 am after review and fewer than 1% after appeal, and that Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): It is a was often because the claimant brought forward new pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. evidence. The problem I am most concerned about is I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield how in the tiny minority of cases where a different Central (Paul Blomfield) on securing this debate. I want decision really ought to have been made, it was not to look at two particular groups affected by sanctioning made. and how changes could improve their situation. The first group is single parents. Debbie Abrahams: The hon. Gentleman is making an Gingerbread, which supports and campaigns on behalf interesting speech. He might not be aware of the Select of single parents, published a report in November called Committee inquiry and the report we published earlier “Single parents and benefit sanctions”, which looked at this year that clearly showed that the pressure on Jobcentre some of the issues. Its concern is that single parents Plus advisers to get claimants off-flow—off the books—was appear to be more likely than other claimants to receive such that it was distorting what should happen. He what is called a “non-adverse sanction decision”, where mentioned the rules in society, but the rules and culture it is decided not to sanction. Single parents receive such being set up within the Department contribute to those decisions in 41% of cases compared with 32% of other tragic cases. claimants, which means that more inappropriate referrals are being made for single parents. Someone might say, Steve Baker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady, because I “Okay, they don’t actually get sanctioned in the end,” was not aware of the report. I will be sure to dig it out or, “The sanction is overturned within the reconsideration after the debate and have a good look at it. period,” but it increases anxiety and the difficulty people My point is that I do not doubt the Government’s face while they go through the process. A substantial good intent or that the overwhelming majority of the minority of decisions are overturned not before the people working in the system do an extremely difficult sanction is applied, but afterwards, during the initial job that is demanding both on their skills and talents reconsideration period. In that post-sanction period, and on their emotions; but I have to ask why it is that in 26% of low-level sanctions applied to single parents are a tiny minority of cases things go so badly wrong. The overturned, 46% of intermediate-level sanctions—that hon. Lady made a good point about the systems that is very high—and 17% of high-level sanctions. That are put in place. How do people end up feeling incentivised suggests a relatively high proportion of wrong decisions, to sanction people whom they otherwise might not which is particularly important for departmental working. sanction? Why do they not notice that someone has a The Gingerbread report also cites a previous piece of mental illness such as a food phobia and feel able to research done for the DWP and published in 2013, refer them to help elsewhere? How can that possibly be? which looked at lone parent obligations in the period I am absolutely convinced that every Member of this towards the end of the previous Government. That House believes not only that we should have an ultimate DWP study showed that in getting people back to work, social safety net, but that there is one there that should the effects of voluntary and tailored back-to-work support be and largely is effective. were greater than the effects of programmes based on I will finish my speech with some obvious suggestions increasing conditionality. Tailored support had a higher for the Government, which I feel sure they will have success rate. That is important because it was the DWP considered. First, it is obvious that everything should that commissioned the report. be clearly communicated to people, taking into account If single parents or any other group are to be involved, issues such as those the hon. Member for Sheffield it is particularly important that the claimant commitment Central (Paul Blomfield) mentioned, where someone that people are expected to enter into is individually cannot read. It is obvious that a person cannot be tailored. We are told by Ministers that it is individually expected to comply with rules that have not been explained tailored, but the experience of many constituents is that to them. The rules should be explained simply and it does not appear to take their circumstances into people’s understanding of them confirmed. It is not account. There are single parent flexibilities in the system, 61WH Benefit Sanctioning2 DECEMBER 2014 Benefit Sanctioning 62WH

[Sheila Gilmore] I am sure that we would have known about it and would have been shouting about, so it is a relatively recent which allow the conditionality applied to single parents phenomenon. to be tailored to their particular needs, but Gingerbread We are not saying that there should not be any found that in a number of cases that was not happening. conditionality in the system. I was struck by a report by When universal credit is rolled out beyond the 17,000 Paul Gregg that was prepared for the DWP before the people currently on it, to the whole of the UK, only one last election. His fundamental recommendation was in 12 of the lone parent flexibilities will be carried over that sanctions must be linked with personalised support. in its entirety. Gingerbread is concerned that universal In the foreword to the report, he states that there are credit makes it less likely, not more likely, that single “a number of risks associated with conditionality that need be parents will be protected by conditions that take into designed out as far as possible at inception” account such things as school holidays, school hours and the difficulties of working evenings and nights for of the system.. The problem is that the risks have not lone parents responsible for their children. been designed out properly, which is what causes severe hardship among some of those sanctioned; some people Gingerbread makes some practical proposals—it has are then directed to inappropriate courses or jobs, which not just put out a report that says, “This is all awful.” It do not help them to move forward; and some are suggests that at the start of a claim there should be a pushed outwith the system altogether. thorough diagnostic interview with a specialist lone parent adviser—a jobcentre provision that seems to Paul Gregg’s proposals are interesting when juxtaposed have become less common of late—to give appropriate with what has actually happened. He recommended conditionality; that similar processes should be applied that for a first offence, if we want to call it that, there if that particular person is later referred to the Work should be a formal warning built in to the system. programme; that if claimants receive a sanction, they Interestingly, that there should be such a stage prior to are given better information on hardship payments and sanctions being applied has also been recommended by how to appeal, as mentioned by other hon. Members; , which is far from left-wing. A second and, of course, that lone parent advisers be reinstated. offence would result in the “loss of one week’s JSA” In a worrying trend, another group that appears to be increasingly affected by sanctions is those on employment and a third offence would lead to the loss of two week’s and support allowance in the work-related activity group worth. Interestingly, he recommended that after a fourth who have been through the work capability assessment offence there should be and have been assessed as not fit for work at this stage. “be an investigation by Jobcentre Plus…to determine the underlying These people are not expected to be job-ready, but they reason” can be referred to the Work programme if their prognosis and to talk to those who gave the individual support in is that they will be fit again within 12 months, and order to find out what was actually going on before people are increasingly being referred. Most sanctions applying “a non-financial sanction”. He thought it for this group appear to arise from the Work programme would be a small group, but one that had to be looked experience. The number of ESA sanctions in June 2014 at in some detail. Those proposals, the need for personalised was 5,132, up from 1,091 in December 2012. The rise support and a much less draconian system than the one over that period was steady and it is still going up. Of applied by the Government are worth considering. the sanctions, 431 were for failure to attend a mandatory interview, but 4,700 arose from a failure to participate In conclusion, perhaps the Minister will be good in a work-related activity, which basically means the enough to cut out of her reply the usual generalisations Work programme. Many of these people have mental about how good work is for people, with which we all health problems or learning disabilities, so we must ask agree, and how it is the route out of poverty. Yes, being why this group is being increasingly sanctioned and employed is a necessary part of moving out of poverty, how effective that can be. but it is insufficient in many cases. We can bypass that debate because we keep having it and we are not moving However much some deny it, there is a link between forward. No Labour Member and, indeed, few people the increasing use of food banks and a decision that has that I meet in my constituency think that people should been made about benefits. Some of those decisions not work if they can, but we do have concerns about the involve delays, but a survey undertaken this year by the system for deciding who is fit for work. Will the Minister Child Poverty Action Group, Citizens Advice Scotland concentrate instead on why sanctions referrals and sanctions and other organisation found that 20% to 30% of food have increased, particularly in relation to the ESA group? bank users said that their household’s benefit had recently What is her response to the specific recommendations been stopped or reduced because of a sanction. I do not of organisations such as Gingerbread? What is she deny that often there is a backdrop of other, wider doing to evaluate whether sanctions actually work to problems, as shown by the report. Many people have a increase the number of people entering employment, background of homelessness, recent marital separation, which is meant to be the answer? What research has she relationship problems, ill health or bereavement, but it commissioned to find that out? is against that backdrop that sanctions have a particularly dramatic impact, because people in a more stable family situation can more often get help from family members. 10.16 am Ministers in this Government sometimes give the Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): impression that the growth of food banks is somehow a It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, ploy by anti-Government campaigners to make them Mr Howarth. I congratulate the hon. Member for Sheffield look bad, but I genuinely have not seen that before. Had Central (Paul Blomfield) on securing this important it been a problem during, say, the Thatcher Government, debate. I was sorry to hear the aggressive tone with 63WH Benefit Sanctioning2 DECEMBER 2014 Benefit Sanctioning 64WH which the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila What might be driving the ESA issue in particular, Gilmore) concluded, because this debate needs elevating which the hon. Member for Edinburgh East mentioned, above party politics. is the lack of freedom that Work programme providers I am proud to represent a constituency that has this have not to refer an infringement on for a further country’s fourth most deprived ward, which is where decision. That seems to be building into the system an our local jobcentre is sited. Just over the road in Blackpool accelerator of the number of referrals on potential South is the most deprived ward in the country. Our sanctions. I urge the Minister to look at how we can jobcentre deals with a vast range of highly vulnerable build more flexibility into the system so that Work people with complex needs, including mental health programme providers may choose not to refer if they problems, learning disabilities and addictions of one deem that the claimant has a good reason. sort or another. I was struck by the reference of the hon. Member for The walk from the jobcentre to my constituency Sheffield Central to the number of increasing incidents. office is 30 seconds, and I have dealt with numerous We can all argue over the figures—some people cite cases involving the word “sanctions” over the past four 4.5 million—and I am sure that we will argue about and a half years. I have seen the ebb and flow and the them in the Select Committee, but the essential point to changing patterns in how the Department for Work and me is that any change in the welfare state or in any Pensions has sought to deal with the matter. It would be particular benefit inevitably creates confusion for those wrong of me not to make the effort to visit the local who have to administer the system and for those seeking Jobcentre Plus to discuss why all this is occurring, what to navigate it as claimants. is going on and what is lying behind it. What truth lies We have seen tremendous changes in the benefits behind the things that I read in the newspaper about system in recent years—new benefits coming in and targets and inappropriate sanctions? There is an element new requirements being placed on claimants, none more of black and white here. so than the claimant commitment—and that has required The system has problems, many brought out by the a great degree of comprehension on the part of many of Oakley review, that the Government are now dealing those applying for JSA. Many have none the less found with by accepting the review’s 17 recommendations. the new document off-putting. Yes, it is certainly However, I would welcome confirmation from the Minister personalised, but it is still a matter of putting ticks in that that acceptance applies not only to the sanctions boxes as they apply to the individual, so the personalisation imposed on those participating in the back-to-work is a little limited. It still requires a variety of boxes to be schemes that fell within the remit of the Oakley review, ticked, rather than being built around the needs of an but to the two thirds of sanctions that were not covered individual. That still creates problems. by Mr Oakley. I am also struck by the number of people making the It is a fair point that there is a lack of clarity about journey over to my office from the jobcentre who say, “I what people understand they are being asked to do. The have been sanctioned”, when on investigation no sanction welfare state is a complex thing to navigate in the first is officially part of the story. To me, that was an place, which is why we have bodies such as Citizens anecdotal impression—that people said that they were Advice. A lot of it can be off-putting. being sanctioned, but were not being sanctioned—so I was intrigued to read in the Oakley report that DWP Yvonne Fovargue: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? research had found that 28% of JSA claimants had said that they had been sanctioned in some way, shape or Paul Maynard: I will give way to the hon. Lady as this form. Once the case load was reviewed, it turned out is her specialist topic. that only 11% of claimants had been sanctioned. Yvonne Fovargue: There have been a lot of references I am not saying that those individuals were in any to the citizens advice bureaux, which issued the valuable way seeking to misrepresent what had occurred. Once report mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for again, benefit claims can be complex, and the amount Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) and provide help to that one receives each week can change according to a the most vulnerable. Many of those bureaux, however, wide range of factors, such as social fund repayments, are under threat as local authorities are hard-pressed late payment of bills or the Child Support Agency—the and cutting their budgets. Does the hon. Gentleman list is endless. agree that today’s debate demonstrates the value of the advice and the saving to the state? Debbie Abrahams: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Paul Maynard: I agree entirely. One of my caseworkers also works part-time at the local citizens advice bureau; Paul Maynard: I am conscious that I am taking a lot her experience in the one role helps her in the other, and of time, so I would like to get through my comments vice-versa. rather than give way. I do apologise. What is not made sufficiently clear to all claimants of What interests me is that sanctions appear to be jobseeker’s allowance is that participation in any activity becoming a shorthand for a wider range of issues in the to get claimants closer to the workplace, whether computer welfare system, all of which undoubtedly need to be or other skills training, does not invalidate the obligation addressed. Meanwhile, the issue of conditionality is to continue job-seeking activities. That is often the almost getting a worse name for itself than it should be. golden thread running through so many of the sanction Conditionality is not always responsible for all the cases that come across my desk. That central and essential problems that individual claimants are bringing forward point is somehow lost on people and, given that it is so and identifying. We need to drill down to what exactly central, I urge the DWP to make it much clearer. is occurring. 65WH Benefit Sanctioning2 DECEMBER 2014 Benefit Sanctioning 66WH

[Paul Maynard] Central (Paul Blomfield) on bringing to the Floor of the House such an important issue, which concerns me We obviously have the endless debate about whether greatly and can have a devastating impact on many Jobcentre Plus employees are expected to hit particular people’s lives and on communities up and down the sanction levels. I try to take a pragmatic view. If I am country, including my constituency. managing a process and I have an outlier branch of my I wonder why “sanction” is used, because the word network that is producing figures that I do not recognise, means “approved”, and people are in fact being I will of course investigate. I specifically asked my disapproved—that is just something to ponder. That Jobcentre Plus advisers in Blackpool whether that was sanction may be imposed if a claimant is deemed not to occurring, and I was assured that it was not. I can only have complied with a condition for receiving the benefit take their word for it, but I understand such concerns. I in question. Since October 2012, according to House of suggest to those concerned that entering into a potential Commons Library figures, 1.4 million people have been sanctioning process can often bring out some of those sanctioned. Sanctions give people a huge problem, as underlying problems—[Interruption.] Was it something they have four weeks at the very least without any I said? I see that the hon. Members for Makerfield finance—four weeks without the means to live, to put (Yvonne Fovargue) and for Oldham East and Saddleworth bread on the table or to feed the kids. That is what (Debbie Abrahams) are leaving the Chamber. sanctioning means, and it is unacceptable. On the underlying problems, one gentleman who This morning, I had a look on the internet and I came to my office had not completed any of his back- found a site that gives some incredible examples of how to-work activity, but he was then found to be functionally and why people are sanctioned, and it is worth noting illiterate at the last-but-one stage before he was due to one or two, if not more. The first is the case of an Army be sanctioned. The sanction was not applied and his veteran who volunteered to sell poppies for the Royal literacy issues were then dealt with; Jobcentre Plus British Legion at a local supermarket in memory of his employees can use discretion and can already get to the fallen comrades. He had applied for lots of jobs, including bottom of what is causing some of the problems. I one at the supermarket where he was selling the poppies, revert to the underlying point of Mr Oakley’s report, but without any success. He was sanctioned for four which is that the system is not fundamentally broken. weeks. He states that quite explicitly. Improvements can certainly Another fellow got a job interview that was at the be made but, as a system, conditionality is not same time as his jobcentre appointment, so he had to fundamentally broken. reschedule that appointment. He tried to do so, but the The hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth, people at the jobcentre said he did not have a good who has just departed, made a point about the sizeable enough reason for not being there, so he was sanctioned numbers exiting JSA totally. I hope that the Select for four weeks. That is four weeks with no food and Committee will investigate that important issue, because little electricity, suffering greatly—in 2014, in the sixth one of the challenges in Blackpool has been to estimate richest economy in the world. the size of the black economy. The suspicion is that In another example, somebody’s relative died during many people, who until the introduction of the new the night, and their partner rang the jobcentre the next claimant commitment were able to maintain their job- day to ask whether they could come in on the following seeking activity while working in the black economy, day. Their partner was told that yes, of course they could no longer juggle both balls and therefore voluntarily could, but after they went in, they were written to. They chose to exit JSA. It is a persuasive narrative and I replied, explaining the situation in writing, but were would like the Committee to investigate the extent to sanctioned for six weeks for not replying. which it holds true. Does it depend on the size of the black economy in any particular local economy? What There is a fellow in my constituency who I have seen estimates have been made? That is another important three times now; I have also mentioned his case in the issue to be drilled down into. House. He is 62 years old. He suffers greatly because of a heart condition and has to go to hospital regularly. He I want to ensure that other people can speak, so my has been sanctioned again. The last time he came to see final point is that, as we have all been saying, conditionality me he had been living on blackberries, apples and has to be part of any functioning welfare system, but it mushrooms from the local field. Is that what we want must be done in such a way that it is also seen to be from sanctioning? humane. The Litchfield review of the work capability There are two ways to look at this issue. We could assessment was always careful to make the point that suggest that the Government did not mean those sorts there is such a thing as institutional justice. People will of things to happen with sanctioning, and that those accept an adverse decision if they have confidence in cases are one-offs. In that case, we might think they the process that they have gone through and feel that would put them right, but I am not sure they are they have been given a fair opportunity to have their inclined to do that. They see them as consequences, but say. The fact that institutional justice is part of the I see those people as human beings—not as consequences welfare state is an important factor in making it work in or as collateral damage, but as human beings, like me the interests not only of those claiming, but of those and like everyone else in this Chamber. The other view funding and administering it. is that the Government are aware of the consequences of sanctioning and are prepared to put up with them. 10.27 am Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): It is a pleasure, as ever, Steve Baker: The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I speech. He has given some extremely good reasons why congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield people ought not to have been sanctioned. Under the 67WH Benefit Sanctioning2 DECEMBER 2014 Benefit Sanctioning 68WH system, if people give a good reason they should be the 44-year-old man living in the Prime Minister’s exempt from sanctions, so has he considered why that constituency who starved to death because he had been system has broken down in those cases? sanctioned and did not know what the process was. That was in the Prime Minister’s backyard. There was Ian Lavery: I have given lots of consideration and also the case of the individual with type 1 diabetes. thought to sanctions. My view, which is not perhaps the Those are just a couple of cases. I say to the Minister view of the party that I am proud to represent, is that that we really need to have a proper look at who is being sanctions are inappropriate in this day and age, in any sanctioned and the consequences of sanctioning them. way, shape or form. I understand the point made by the I have been involved with the DWP work force for hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) that quite some time. Regardless of what might be said there has to be something in place for the odd person today, pressure is being put on people who work in who, as we all know, swings the lead. That does happen, DWP offices and deal with applications to ensure that but those people are then put at the top of the agenda, their targets are as good as those of other offices. as if everybody was swinging the lead when they are Basically, if their individual targets are not good enough, not. they are brought in to see the manager and are coerced People do not want to be on benefits. People on into ensuring that their performances increase in line benefits are not the wealthiest in this world—they are with those of other people in their section and other not living a life of luxury but are merely existing. As I sections in other DWP and jobcentre offices. There are have said before, that is not good enough—it really is unofficial league tables. That will be denied, but I can not. That is not just because of Government policy, but prove that it is the case. because of a whole array of things. As politicians we In concluding, I place on the record my thanks to the have a duty to make sure that we look after the residents CAB in Wansbeck, which does a fantastic job. It is of this country. bursting at the seams with people with nowhere to go, I have given a few real examples. I have another one: no food to eat and no electricity when they get home. there is a man in my constituency who was sanctioned The people at the CAB do a fantastic job, although only two weeks ago. He had got a job, but he was not again they are being hit greatly by the cuts. Without going to start it for a fortnight; he did not look for any them, a lot of people would suffer even more. I have one employment after he got it, because he had a job. He simple question for the Minister: is there ever any was sanctioned because he had not put enough work reason here in the UK for depriving people of a means into finding a job, when he had already found one. That to live? is absolute nonsense. If anyone thinks any different I would be incredibly surprised. 10.39 am If we look at the class of people who are being Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I welcome the impacted by the sanctions, it is the vulnerable and those opportunity to respond to the debate, and congratulate who are desperate. They are not scroungers, as many my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul people try to portray them—a lot of them are extremely Blomfield) on securing it. I also congratulate Sheffield desperate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Citizens Advice and Tim Arnold, who produced the Central mentioned, a lot of people who are being report that was the basis of much of what my hon. sanctioned do not have anything to eat, so they are Friend said. I welcome the thoughtful debate, with referred to the local food bank. Although the next point contributions on both sides expressing grave concern depends on the figures we have read and want to accept, about what has been happening with benefit sanctions. there are in the region of 500,000 people attending food My hon. Friend made the point that sanctions have banks because they do not have enough food. These are been part of the social security system since it was families and single parents—people with kids—who established. It is right that there should be sanctions for have not got a scrap or a morsel on the table to feed people in receipt of benefits who do things they should themselves. No one here wants that to happen, so why is not. However, it is clear that the sanctions system has it happening? gone badly wrong, that in too many cases it is no longer We hear Ministers suggest that food banks are a great fair and proportionate, and that terrible damage is thing—we are all in this together and there is great resulting from that. community spirit in seeing people giving food to people The hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) and who do not have anything. There is a factory in my my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) constituency where, instead of paying proper wages, both mentioned one of the most harrowing cases, involving they are setting up a food bank. I am getting slightly off the diabetic ex-soldier David Clapson, who died, as his the issue now, Mr Howarth, but it is all connected to sister said, “penniless, starving and alone”, because sanctioning and to the fact that the people at the very three weeks after his benefit was stopped for missing a bottom are desperate and are looking merely to exist. jobcentre appointment his electricity card had run out My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central said and his refrigerator was not working, so he was not able that the majority of people using food banks are there to keep the insulin on which his life depended. He died because of sanctions or delays to their benefits in one as a result. form or another. That needs to be looked at. That is an extreme case and should not have happened. It is generally accepted that thousands of disabled No one in the Chamber today became a politician to people are being sanctioned. The group that really preside over such harrowing events. We need changes concerns me is the mentally ill—there are people who to prevent them. I want the Minister to tell us more are mentally ill who are being sanctioned through no about the implementation of the Oakley review, whose fault of their own. The hon. Member for Wycombe recommendations were designed to introduce such changes. (Steve Baker) mentioned two prime examples. One was Such things seem still to be happening at the moment. 69WH Benefit Sanctioning2 DECEMBER 2014 Benefit Sanctioning 70WH

[Stephen Timms] “The DWP has not provided any explanation for the increase in ESA sanctions.” Certainly a very large number of jobseekers now feel There has been a dramatic increase in the number of that jobcentre staff are there primarily not to help them ESA claimants being sanctioned, and it is not clear why. but to catch them out and find grounds for sanctioning The number of sanctions is one thing; another issue them. That has done terrible damage to the reputation is their severity. To try to get a handle on that I tabled a of jobcentres. I am sure that the perception is often series of questions asking for the total amount of unfair, but it is very widely held because of the destructive benefit withheld as a result of benefit sanctions in each preoccupation with sanctioning. At some point, a major of the past four years. The Minister’s predecessor, the programme of renewal for Jobcentre Plus will be needed. hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), gave a helpful The Select Committee on Work and Pensions was right answer on 25 March 2013, with a table showing to make the case that as a first step jobcentres should be evaluated on the basis not of benefit off-flow, with all “the total amount of jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) withheld to the nearest £ million…as a result of fixed sanctions in each of the last the perverse incentives that that has created, but of four years up to 22 October 2012”.—[Official Report, 25 March sustained job outcomes—the same measure used in the 2013; Vol. 560, c. 986W.] case of Work programme providers. The table showed that in 2009-10—just before the There has been some discussion in the debate about election—£11 million was withheld. In 2010-11 the the contentious issue of targets for sanctions. I am sure figure was £43 million, so it quadrupled after the election. that the Minister will reaffirm in a few minutes that In 2011-12 it was £45 million and in 2012-13, up to there are no targets for sanctions, but it is clear that that October 2012—so just for the first half of that financial is not how many Jobcentre Plus staff understand the year—it was £60 million. Therefore, taking the whole of position. Indeed, it is not too difficult to find out why 2012-13, benefit was being withheld at approximately they think that there are targets for the implementation 10 times the rate for the year before the general election. of sanctions. The Minister provided a written answer I have since tried repeatedly to get an update on that on 15 October 2013 to my question whether Jobcentre figure, and the Minister yesterday provided a written Plus advisers’ regular personal reviews included discussions answer in response to my latest attempt. She said: of the number of benefit sanctions that they handed out. She confirmed: “The Department has never estimated the amount of benefit withheld as a result of benefit sanctions.” “Jobcentre Plus uses advisers’ personal reviews to monitor performance, to inform these they use a variety of performance That clearly is not true, because her answer goes on to data, including sanctions referrals.”——[Official Report, 15 October refer to the written answer of 25 March 2013, with its 2013; Vol. 568, c. 647W.] reference to the table—so the Department has previously So regular reviews of Jobcentre Plus advisers feature provided an answer to my question. The Minister goes the number of sanctions issued. That is part of the on to explain why her answer does not have a very assessment. I am told that the expectation is that advisers helpful figure, but I am today tabling a further question should give out at least eight sanctions per month and to ask whether she will at least do the calculation again, that if they do not they are usually, as my hon. Friend so that we can see what has happened in the intervening the Member for Sheffield Central mentioned, placed on period. I have also tried to find out with a written a performance improvement plan, to help them pull question how many jobseeker’s allowance claimants their socks up and get them to give out more sanctions have been issued with a three-year benefit sanction. in the future. The Minister may be able to explain the Some people have been sanctioned for three whole difference between that arrangement and targets for years—not four or six weeks, as we have heard—in each sanctions. Clearly, in practice, targets are set for the month since October 2012. application of sanctions by Jobcentre Plus staff, and if they do not meet the expectation they are in trouble. 10.50 am Dr David Webster, of the university of Glasgow, has just published his latest briefing on benefit sanctions. The Minister for Employment (Esther McVey): It is a He tells us that there were an estimated 1.03 million pleasure, Mr Howarth, to serve under your chairmanship. jobseeker’s allowance and employment and support I thank the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul allowance sanctions in the year to 30 June 2014, before Blomfield) for bringing this important debate to the reconsiderations and appeals, compared with 564,000 Chamber. It is important for us to keep a spotlight on in the last 12 months of the previous Government; so the sanctions regime. the number of sanctions handed out has roughly doubled. Sanctions have always been part of the benefits system. Dr Webster says that JSA claimants are As Oakley stated, benefits sanctions provide a vital “sanctioned at the rate of 6.92% per month before reconsiderations backdrop in the social security system for jobseekers. and appeals”. They are a key element of mutual obligation underpinning Ministers sometimes say that the vast majority of both the effectiveness and fairness of the social security benefit recipients are not sanctioned, but 7% of JSA system. Sanctions help ensure that claimants meet claimants are sanctioned per month, and Dr Webster requirements designed to help them to move into work. also says that about a quarter of JSA claimants get a They are only a last resort as part of a wider agenda to sanction at some point during their claim. He also help people to get a job and to move closer to the labour makes the point that ESA claimants were sanctioned at market. the rate of 1.16% per month in June 2014. Dr Webster Our approach is not to be tougher for its own sake, comments—and this picks up on the point made by my but to provide a clearer, more consistent and effective hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila incentive to comply. Where sanctions are, how they are Gilmore): set up within the system and how they work are important. 71WH Benefit Sanctioning2 DECEMBER 2014 Benefit Sanctioning 72WH

Before dealing with hon. Members’ questions individually people on them, and for the vast majority they work. and responding to the hon. Member for Sheffield Central, When they do not work, we have not allowed exclusive I will provide some context. contracts. We are doing something that the previous When the debate was arranged, I thought we should Government did not do. We want to ensure that people look at what was happening pre-2010. A system is have a good job—not just any old job, but a job they always subject to changes, which must reflect what is want so that they have a career and progress. We know happening, make it better and support more people into that three quarters of the jobs created since 2010 are work. When looking back—this probably answers the full-time. I hope that answers the question. question from the right hon. Member for East Ham The other key issue—for me, probably the most (Stephen Timms)—we must consider how sanctions important thing the Government have done—is that were issued. fewer children are now growing up in workless households. There was widespread inconsistency in decision-making, with similar cases being treated differently even within Sheila Gilmore: Will the Minister give way? jobcentres. We had to ensure that that did not happen so we focused on how to achieve greater consistency Esther McVey: I will not give way. I am setting the and efficiency throughout the introduction of our quality scene. I will answer the questions raised, and then I will assurance framework. No targets were set and there are take some more interventions, but not at the moment. still no targets, but when we see variation, whether We know that the best route out of poverty is to have higher or lower, in the same jobcentre, we seek to ensure a job and that children born into a household where no that a certain standard is maintained. We would check one works are three times more likely to be in poverty. what various advisers are doing and whether the person This year, we have reduced that number by 390,000. We concerned needs extra help and support to provide are talking about poverty, and about support and help equality. It cannot be right that one jobseeker is treated for people to get a job and to move forward. The differently from a friend, colleague or other jobseeker. Government have done significantly more than anybody That is why we made changes. else to support people on their way and into work. That I also looked at what was happening in 2010 and is the background of sanctions and why they exist, and there were some startling differences. Between 2004 and what we must do to meet and match and provide 2009—this raises a different question, but it is all part of support. the sanctions system and the extra help given—only four out of 10 British nationals got jobs, but six out of We have introduced the youth contract for young 10 foreign nationals did. We changed that round because people, with an extra 250,000 extra work experience it is key that, as well as sanctions, we provide a system places and sector-based work academies. This year, we that gives the right training, the right support and the have seen the biggest fall in youth unemployment—by right employability skills. In addition, discipline is necessary 250,000—since records began. We are fundamentally to maintain a job. All that must be provided. Since we turning the lives of those people around, and sanctions have done that and fundamentally changed the system, are a tiny part of a massive system of support. nearly seven out of 10 British nationals are getting jobs. That must be seen in the context of the changes since Paul Blomfield: The Minister is making a wide- 2010. ranging contribution, but I am conscious that she is— unintentionally, I am sure—leaving herself insufficient I look at the jobs market and what has happened, and time to answer my specific questions. Will she meet me at the various quotes. Since 2010, there has been an and Sheffield Citizens Advice to talk about them in increase of nearly 2 million jobs. The Opposition said more detail? they thought there would be 1 million fewer jobs, but that is not the case. There are nearly 2 million more jobs and at the same time there are an extra 200,000 vacancies, Esther McVey: What I will do first, so that I do not so there are about 670,000 vacancies at any one time. run out of time, is to answer the hon. Gentleman’s questions. He referred to various people who did not We must ask whether we have the right incentives in want their names given but had reasons why they thought place to get people into work, and whether we are they should not have been sanctioned. In many cases, providing the right training, the right discipline and there will have been good reasons for the sanction, but I employability skills for people to get a job. We must would like to know what happened to those people. look at the issue in the round. There have been significant changes. The claimant commitment is being rolled out to 900,000 people so that the adviser understands what Ian Lavery: On the millions of jobs that the Government support people need, what journey they need to go on claim they have created, the Office for National Statistics and their individual circumstances, which might mean says that 1.4 million of them involve zero-hours contracts. that they are more vulnerable than other people and Does the Minister believe that the Government are need more exemptions or time off because they can encouraging people into long-term employment by offering work or search for jobs only within certain time frames. them contracts under which they might not make even That was the point of the claimant commitment and £1 a week? personalising the approach, which we are doing now. Oakley rightly raised communications, what we were Esther McVey: The Labour party has already been doing and how we could refine the system further. We brought to task by the UK Statistics Authority for know what we have done; we have helped people into talking about a significant increase in zero-hours contracts work. We know what we have done with the sanctions that did not happen. The contracts began in 2000 as the regime, but how do we make it better, which we need to minimum wage was brought in. We know the number of do constantly? 73WH Benefit Sanctioning 2 DECEMBER 2014 74WH

[Esther McVey] Assistive Technology Sector

Oakley made 17 recommendations, all of which we 11 am have accepted. They include reviewing letters to claimants to ensure that they understand what is going on; work Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): We with experts to ensure that communication is better; celebrate the UN international day for disabled people and work with local authorities to improve communication tomorrow and we will consider what help and support on housing benefits, to ensure that people do not have Government should be offering small and medium-sized their housing benefit stopped unnecessarily, which can manufacturing enterprises, such as those in the assistive make things worse for people. Those recommendations technology sector, in tomorrow’s autumn statement, so were implemented immediately unless they required it is fitting that we should have a debate on the role of substantial changes to the Work programme, in which assistive technology and its empowering effects on disabled case they will be introduced as that programme changes. people in our society. The UK is the world leader in the assistive technology sector, comprising 1,000 businesses and other enterprises, providing approximately 1,500 products to students with disabilities, helping to employ nearly 10,000 people in education and other connected sectors, and exporting technology across the world. A recent study by the Helen Hamlyn Centre for Design at the Royal College of Art, in partnership with BT and Scope, found that digital technology has the potential to change radically the lives of disabled people, but that they are a fifth less likely to be online than their peers. Scope’s partnership with BT provides disabled people with new opportunities to stay in touch with friends and family and help ease that digital exclusion, which can affect disabled people’s life chances and their state of well-being. That is done not only with new devices, but by adapting existing devices through, for example, developing new apps or open source software or hardware to cater for individual needs.

Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing forward this important subject for debate this week. Given the beneficial effect he has highlighted of assistive technology, both for individuals and for our economy, does he agree that it is regrettable that the Government appear to be downgrading their interest in the subject, with their decision no longer to fund the Foundation for Assistive Technology to produce its independent report?

Mr Bain: Very much so—I am sure my hon. Friend will make an outstanding Minister for disabled people in a few months, and I look forward to working with her and championing the interests of disabled people. I think—I will develop this later—that what has happened reflects an attitude towards the needs of disabled people which sadly followed on from those terrible remarks by Lord Freud. What we need from Government is policy that encourages the development of assistive technology, not discourages it. However, the sector feels neglected under this Government, with weaknesses in procurement practices in the NHS, responsibility divided between five different Ministers in three different Departments, and legislation affecting the industry being driven by a fourth Department. In this debate, we should also thank Guide Dogs for the work that it does in promoting audio-visual final destination and next-stop announcement technology on buses. Many Members have had representations from constituents looking for that form of assistive technology to be installed on all new buses across the UK to boost accessibility, which would remove a barrier that many sight-impaired people experience when seeking to take up work. 75WH Assistive Technology Sector2 DECEMBER 2014 Assistive Technology Sector 76WH

Online services such as shopping or banking are vital provide that DSA is only available in respect of expenditure for disabled people, but lack of accessibility remains a on a computer minus a contribution by the student of key issue. Most sites comply with accessibility standards, £200. With 78% of disabled students surveyed by the but the Scope study found that some disabled people NUS reporting owning a laptop, rather than an iPad, still struggle to use those services, as codes and standards desktop computer or a MacBook Pro, it is effectively a on websites do not meet accessibility needs. Scope has tax of £200 per student on laptops payable next September recommended measuring online services by how responsive for new students who qualify for DSA. they are, focusing on the person not the system, through for example, examining how long it takes a disabled Many students are working long hours as well as person to complete tasks online compared with non- studying at university, because for them, every penny disabled users of the same site. If it takes longer for a counts. A look at any price comparison website will disabled person to use the service, the service provider reveal that many popular brands of laptop computers must do more to make the site equally accessible. That are available for less than £200, but would not now is where assistive technology can really help. qualify for DSA grants under those regulations, placing the obligation either directly on students themselves or One of the first Bills I voted on after being elected to on strained university budgets under this Government. this House was the one that became the Equality Act Either universities will have to make the financial 2010, which creates duties on the Government and commitment themselves in pursuance of their duty those providing services to the disabled, or hearing or to make reasonable adjustments under the Equality sight-impaired people, or people with individual needs Act, or affected students will face the additional in learning, including the obligation to make reasonable costs for equipment that is vital for them to be able to adjustments to workplaces, places of study or elsewhere, study properly. to allow for the widest possible inclusion of people of talent in our universities, colleges and workplaces. It is grossly unfair that the Government have proven I experienced first hand, as a university lecturer in to be so out of touch in drawing up the new rules and Glasgow and London for a decade, how essential the bringing in a £200 laptop tax, even though the average support provided by assistive technology to students’ expenditure per student has fallen over the past eight learning experience is. It is a necessity, not a luxury. years. I urge them to take the opportunity presented by Many universities have improved greatly the resources this debate to reflect again, or the Government who available to students with particular learning needs, but were the authors of the pasty tax and the granny tax it is wrong for the Government to shift the burden more will have a further problem with their legacy by inflicting and more on to universities, as the regulations before an unfair £200 laptop tax on thousands of students Parliament on disabled students’ allowances run the with disabilities or acute learning needs who are beginning risk of doing. Government should work with universities their courses next September. to ensure that more students from backgrounds where Even more extraordinary is the Government’s position there are special learning needs can prosper in higher in the explanatory memorandum to the regulations, education, not wash their hands of responsibilities to confirmed in parliamentary written answers to me by promote and deliver inclusive education under the Equality the Minister for Universities, Science and Cities, that Act and article 24 of the UN convention on the rights the laptop tax would have no impact on business, charities of persons with disabilities. or the voluntary sector. The views expressed to me by Although the regulations on disabled students’allowances the assistive technology sector—by individual companies would apply only to students and universities in England, and by the British Assistive Technology Association—have they would have effects on UK-wide supply chains for been somewhat different from the complacent attitude companies involved in assistive technology manufacturing shown by the Minister. It is striking that the Minister and development. That is something that, as a member believes that the imposition of this new laptop tax of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and would have no impact on the ability of students with Skills, I am extremely concerned about. All Members of disabilities or particular learning needs to attend university. this House should be concerned in this week of all That is not the view strongly expressed by the National weeks about additional costs for disabled people that Union of Students. There has been no answer from the could cause additional hardship for a section of the Government about how the laptop tax would be paid or community which already feels that more acutely than collected. It is the case that 83% of students purchase many other people. their laptop through their DSA payments and 98% of To be fair, the Minister for Universities, Science and students told the NUS that that was the source of their Cities—I thought perhaps he was going to reply to this funding for acquiring supportive software. debate—responded to a strong, evidence-based argument earlier this year, when he decided to postpone the We have no details about what support the Government changes to disabled students’ allowances until 2016. He will provide to universities in cases in which a student knows that the National Union of Students provided faces particular financial hardship. We have no clarity strong evidence showing that half of disabled students on what will happen in the case of postgraduate students get their assistive technology through funding they receive who would be eligible for DSA but no other financial through DSA, compared with only 8% of non-disabled support. We have no information about the Government’s students relying on allowances. plans for bulk purchasing, which they have previously floated as a solution to the problem that they have now I hope that the Minister for Skills and Equalities will got themselves into. respond in a similar way to the representations that have been made on the regulations before Parliament. The Prime Minister once said that we should judge a Regulation 10 of the Education (Student Support) Government by how they treat the most vulnerable. (Amendment) Regulations 2014 changed the law to Disabled students have all the talent in the world and 77WH Assistive Technology Sector2 DECEMBER 2014 Assistive Technology Sector 78WH

[Mr Bain] The hon. Gentleman’s core point, of course, is a direct attack on a proposal that the Government have contribute billions of pounds in tax revenues to the brought forward on the disabled students’ allowance. economy when they graduate. They deserve a Government He makes his argument with great passion, but as who are on their side, not acting against their interests Members of his party and, even more, Front-Bench with a £200 laptop tax being sneaked through the Members of his party ever do, he entirely fails to House without a substantive vote. address the fundamental issue: the budget deficit, which Assistive technology companies are one of our new remains very high and was the largest ever seen in economic success stories in manufacturing, contributing peacetime in a western country, and the level of expenditure £55 million a year in tax revenues to the Exchequer. The on the disabled students’ allowance in the years since 21 small businesses directly involved, some of which this Government came to office. An increase did not have been scathing about the lack of proper Government take place only under the profligate chancellorship and consultation and engagement on the proposal, and the premiership of the soon-to-be former right hon. Member wider supply chains that they support deserve better for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). A growth from Government than this. I urge the Minister to use in expenditure has taken place under this coalition the opportunity presented by the debate this week to Government, who are pledged to try to bring the budget reflect on what is right for disabled students and our deficit down. To be clear, expenditure went up from universities, to support our small and medium-sized £87.8 million in 2009-10 to £125 million in 2011-12. manufacturers in an important industrial sector and to That is not the record of a penny-pinching or parsimonious scrap the laptop tax before it causes further financial Administration who are seeking to deny support to hardship to thousands of disabled people across the disabled people, or to withdraw access to technologies country. that would assist them. That is the record of a Government who are doing everything in their power to support vulnerable people but who nevertheless need to find 11.13 am economies. The Minister for Skills and Equalities (Nick Boles): It Mr Bain: Will the Minister give way? is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Howarth. Nick Boles: I am afraid that I will not give way. The I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow North hon. Gentleman had his go and I am now responding to East (Mr Bain) on securing this debate on a subject his very full speech. about which he is clearly very passionate. He is of This is the challenge we face: how do we continue to course right to say that it is the responsibility of a fellow support disabled people in gaining access to education, Minister in the Department for Business, Innovation employment and all the other opportunities of society and Skills, who unfortunately had another commitment while nevertheless ensuring that expenditure does not today, which is why I am responding to the debate. It is continue to increase by so great an amount? Disabled fortuitous, therefore, that I have two advantages in students’ allowance expenditure has increased by more coming to a subject on which I am otherwise not an than 30% in the space of less than three years and that is expert. First, my Parliamentary Private Secretary is my simply not sustainable. hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), who has a great and equal Fortunately there have been further reforms—also passion for support for disabled people to make the opposed by the Opposition—to the state of university most of their abilities and to be offered as many equal finance. Those reforms have dramatically improved the opportunities as it is technologically feasible to offer financial position of every university in the country by them in their lives. Secondly, by a bizarre coincidence—I giving them access to higher tuition fees, funded by a was not even aware that I would be responding to the system of heavily subsidised student loans. Universities debate until quite recently—I spent yesterday evening, are now in a dramatically different position from the after returning home from voting in the House, filling one they were in when we came into government in out a disabled students’ allowance application form for 2010, so to expect them to make a contribution out of someone in my family who has acute dyslexia and their broader, much improved resources to support dyspraxia and scotopic sensitivity. I did not even know disabled students is entirely reasonable. what that was until he told me, but it means that he is in Universities are benefiting from the tuition fees paid a position to apply for some support with his studies. by those students; they are direct beneficiaries of the Therefore, although I am not an expert, I am entirely funding provided by those students; so to expect universities sympathetic to the cause raised by the hon. Gentleman to play some part in discharging the responsibility to and advocated passionately and consistently by my those students—not the whole part, because the hon. Friend. Government will continue to play an important role I entirely accept that this country is lucky in the range and the disabled students’ allowance will continue to of businesses, charities and social enterprises that are provide a great deal of the necessary support—by means active in trying to help disabled people to maximise of a further contribution is entirely reasonable. their potential and gain access to all the opportunities The hon. Gentleman would have much more chance on offer in education and employment. We are lucky in of making a persuasive case if he had an alternative the range of innovation that is taking place—much of it plan for how to stop the growth in a budget that has is driven by this country—in improving technologies, increased by 30% in less than three years. If he came inventing entirely new technologies and, as the hon. forward with such a plan, or indeed if any Labour Gentleman said, creating adaptations to existing Front-Bench Member on any area of government activity technologies that make them more accessible to people. came forward with any plan to save any pound of 79WH Assistive Technology Sector 2 DECEMBER 2014 80WH public expenditure—we have not heard such plans from Wessex Route Study (Passenger Capacity) him, or from the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) in her area of activity, or from any Opposition [MR GARY STREETER in the Chair] Front-Bencher—it might well be possible to look again at the Government’s proposals. However, until we hear 2.30 pm such a plan, it is incumbent on him to explain why it is Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): It is a pleasure to unreasonable for us to expect universities to make a serve under your chairmanship in this important debate greater contribution to the support for disabled people on the Wessex route plan, Mr Streeter. that we all passionately believe in. In 1996, when the railways were set free from Government control, it was assumed that we would need to manage 11.21 am their decline. Nothing could have been further from the Sitting suspended. truth. Privatisation stopped what had become a gradual decline. Passenger numbers on our railways have more than doubled since then, going from 750 million to 1.6 billion journeys a year. There has been a 60% increase in freight, too. Passenger numbers on routes in and out of Waterloo have doubled since privatisation to 220 million journeys a year. Waterloo is Britain’s busiest mainline station, with over 100 million passengers a year. It has more passengers than Heathrow airport, yet Waterloo is the only major route into London that in the past 30 years has not had money spent on it to make sure that it can cater for the record numbers of people using it every day to get to and from our capital and to and from work. Waterloo uses track layout that was designed for steam trains in the 1930s, which was when the last very big investment in infrastructure on the Waterloo route was made. Why the delay? Why has no money gone in there? It is because decisions about redesigning the route were put off, because they were too complicated and nobody came up with credible solutions. Even when the last Government set sky-high house-building targets for the south-east, the infrastructure investment was not there for the railways to match that growth. In my Basingstoke constituency, the then council called for the highest possible levels of house building, with 13,000 homes built in Basingstoke in the last 15 years alone, but again, there were no solutions on rail and no solutions on transport for residents. What that means for my constituents and those of right hon. and hon. Members here today is increasing overcrowding, not only at peak times, but throughout other points in the day. Passengers now regularly stand for the 50 minutes between Basingstoke and London at peak times, but late-night trains, such as the one I got last Monday that left Waterloo at 10.20 pm, are also full to capacity, and weekend services can see that sort of extreme overcrowding, too. Just to remedy the existing overcrowding, we would need 20% more space on our trains. Passenger numbers are forecast to grow by another 40% in the next 30 years, so now is exactly the right time for a radical redesign and a radical solution for the future. As rail becomes the overcrowded option, so our roads have to take more of the strain. The knock-on effect is chronic congestion on the M3 and other roads in the local strategic network. I very much welcome this Government’s approach of investing in our roads, and in Basingstoke we have had £20 million allocated to alleviate some of the worst problems of road congestion, but Basingstoke residents are still paying the price for the past under-investment. As the now leader of the council, Councillor Clive Sanders, has made it clear: “Investment in the railways is vital if Basingstoke is to thrive economically. Connectivity and accessibility are key factors affecting growth.” 81WH Wessex Route Study (Passenger 2 DECEMBER 2014 Wessex Route Study (Passenger 82WH Capacity) Capacity) [Maria Miller] signalling. In the short term, we will need to squeeze extra capacity from the current rail network, using the We cannot repeat the mistakes of the past, and we have additional 150 carriages recently ordered to increase the seen this week that this Government are not going to do length of shorter shoulder peak services from Basingstoke so. Their commitment to investing in infrastructure is into London, to help people to spread their journeys clear for all to see, and the national infrastructure plan through the day. However, longer trains will also be launched today is designed to ensure that investment in needed for late-night and weekend services, as well as roads and rail is made part of our long-term economic adjustments in the signalling. plan for the country. In the long term, the Wessex route study identifies I want to put on the record my thanks to Network that the additional capacity that is most required is Rail and the alliance for their hard work in producing inwards from Basingstoke and Guildford. I think the the Wessex route study, published just last week, because plan offers a real opportunity of a step change and real I believe that, for the first time, it offers a way to get the solutions. It is now out for consultation and I urge all extra capacity that the Wessex route so badly needs. I right hon. and hon. Members to submit their thoughts know that there are many competing demands for as part of that consultation. Government spending, but I believe that a strong case can be made for the Wessex route to be a priority of Mr Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con): My right hon. future Government investment. Friend is making a very cogent case on the need for extra investment in the routes into Waterloo, but she should The main line out of Waterloo serves the most important not forget the importance of linking large urban centres economic area in Britain. It brings workers into London outside London. The Wessex capacity study talks, for and serves businesses throughout the south-east. My example, about the routes between Portsmouth, Winchester constituency of Basingstoke is part of that, and our and Basingstoke, and Portsmouth, Southampton and growth in new business was double the average of the Poole. Those are important centres economically, they south-east last year, with growth expected to continue are important centres of business, and they are residential at a rate of between 4% and 6% in the next year. areas, too. Basingstoke has seen some 1,000 new businesses formed in the past 12 months, and our draft local plan could Maria Miller: As I would expect, my hon. Friend mean another 13,400 homes being built in the next makes the very important point that the Wessex route 15 years. Along the length of the main line out of plan covers not only the main line, but all the surrounding Waterloo, thousands of new homes will be built. It is areas. He is absolutely right to say that investment in estimated that that will result in 60% more train capacity this plan will yield even greater benefits than those that being needed by 2043—equal to an extra 37 trains an rely on the main line. If we took forward some of the hour into Waterloo on the main line in high peak hours. recommendations in the Wessex route plan, that would More train capacity is needed the entire length of the be important not only for those of us in that part of the Wessex route in Hampshire. In the words of Andrew country, but for people throughout the country. Finney, the president of the Hampshire chamber of Bigger, faster trains are needed on the Wessex route. commerce: When we examine the situation in some detail, we can “The market leading status of the Port of Southampton is see that the problems that we are experiencing are akin threatened by a lack of rail capacity for cruise passengers and rail to some of the problems the airline industry has had to freight. In linking Coast, National Park and Capital visitor attractions, consider in recent years, which led to the development the route simply has to grow to maximise future tourism of the Airbus A380. We should be looking at how we opportunities.” can develop longer, faster trains for our route in the Others have added their voice to calls for that investment. long term. Mr Geoff French, the chairman of the enterprise M3 The Wessex route needs to be the Government’s local enterprise partnership, has said: priority for the rail industry’s control period 6. We need “Good transport communications have always been an important to make good the under-investment of the past. In the part of Basingstoke’s and indeed all of the Enterprise M3 areas’ short term, technical ingenuity will squeeze in some development and economic success. Today these transport links additional space for our local residents, who are suffering are more congested and under greater pressure than ever before. some of the worst train overcrowding in the country, That is why the current Wessex Route Study by Network Rail is so and extra carriages at shoulder periods will help, but vital…rail capacity improvements are needed urgently.” there will be no real solution in the long term without a The economic case for investment in the Wessex route is significant plan of investment in both the hardware of strong. It is a compelling case that will support the the route and the vehicles that travel on it. Those bigger, long-term economic plan for our country. Doing nothing faster trains will help the M3 corridor to continue to is not an option for Basingstoke, it is not an option for provide the power that the British economy needs. We the south-east and it is not an option for the British need to ensure that businesses continue to want to economy. locate themselves in the M3 corridor, because the people As in our road strategy, we need to tackle the problems whom we represent rely on businesses seeing our area as in the short term and the long term. The route into an attractive place in which to locate and providing jobs Waterloo already has more trains on it than any other in for them and their families in the future. That certainty the country, with one train a minute arriving at Waterloo and economic success help to ensure that our constituents across its three routes at peak hours. That is all done on have the jobs that they need and economic prosperity signalling that is 30 years old, as many of my residents for the future. can attest, thanks to the delays that they experience. By I very much welcome the opportunity afforded by comparison, Thameslink is investing more than £7 billion today’s debate to put that message very firmly on the to achieve the same frequency of services on modern agenda of the Government as they look at their investment 83WH Wessex Route Study (Passenger 2 DECEMBER 2014 Wessex Route Study (Passenger 84WH Capacity) Capacity) in rail in the future. I am very grateful to my right hon. reassure me that justified as all the investment is in the Friend the Minister for coming here today and listening south-eastern portion of the line, east of Salisbury, this to the debate and to right hon. and hon. Members who line will also receive investment. It performs a vital have taken the opportunity to come and lend their function, not just for long-distance travellers but increasingly weight to the case for prioritising the Wessex route. for commuters in the Exeter area. We have growing and thriving communities. We have a new town, Cranbrook, 2.43 pm just outside Exeter, which is getting a new station. We have growing villages and market towns—Feniton, Honiton Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I congratulate the and others—in east Devon and they have irregular services right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller) on at the moment. In some cases, that makes it incredibly securing the debate, which is very timely in the light of difficult for people who would like to use the train to the document that was published earlier this week, or commute to and from Exeter for work to do so. perhaps last week, if I have got the timing right. However, the principal reason why I wanted to speak in the debate Devon county council, along with the other local and is that when I received my copy of the document, it regional partners, has come up with a visionary transport took me some time to find any reference in it to anything vision for the area, including something called the Devon west of Salisbury. metro, which would involve significant improvements As you will be aware, Mr Streeter, historically this and upgrading of the access routes in and out of Exeter was the main line, as far as Exeter, to the south-west. It by rail. This route is one of the most important. I do was certainly the fastest and most direct one. It is only not have the figures with me, but I would not be at all in relatively modern railway times, since the Great Western surprised if a large number of people commuted every line took over as the principal route, that it has fallen day to Exeter from the growing and thriving settlements into decline. However, with the renaissance of the rail in east Devon, but they have, as I said, very irregular industry that the right hon. Lady mentioned, it faces services, which tend to finish early in the evening and do similar pressures to railways all over the country. It not always start early enough in the morning. faces similar and very welcome increases in passenger numbers, and that is not just about people travelling I shall explain what we desperately need on the this between Exeter and Waterloo. This line is a favourite of bit of railway west of Salisbury, which over time has been retired people and students, because it has rather competitive reduced largely to single track. That is the main problem. pricing compared with the First Great Western line. With a single-track railway, we cannot run services as That is an element of competition that I am sure frequently as we can on a double-track railway; we need everyone here agrees can only be a good thing. Although passing places. There are a few passing places, but not the journey times are a little longer as a rule, people enough; we need more. Just a few more passing places at can get cheaper prices, so it is a very popular line, not strategic points would enable this railway to run trains just with people for whom it is convenient—those living more quickly and regularly. At the moment, it is difficult in the constituency of the right hon. Member for North to combine a regular service from Exeter to Waterloo West Hampshire (Sir George Young), who may be with local stopping services servicing the villages and speaking in a few minutes—but with people from towns that I have referred to, but we need both. With the Exeter and people visiting Exeter from London and the huge growth in passenger numbers that we have seen in south-east. recent years, and which are projected to grow even more in future, and with all the public transport policy from The line is a vital lifeline on the sadly increasing number all political parties urging and encouraging people to of occasions when our main line, the Great Western use public transport where possible, not just for climate line, is incapacitated, usually through some act of nature change and pollution reasons but for reasons of chronic at the moment. In the past two or three winters, we have congestion in cities such as mine, we need those rail lost our connectivity on the main line for considerable routes to function properly as commuter routes, as well periods and, as you will know, Mr Streeter, that has had as the leisure and long-distance routes that operate a very damaging impact on the economy of the south-west. at the moment as an alternative to the Great Western The alternative rail access provided by the Wessex line line. from Exeter to Waterloo has been incredibly valuable, although there was a week or so last winter when we I say to the Minister, “Please, when you respond, had no connectivity at all because the line between don’t ignore the south-west.” I say that as chairman of Yeovil and Exeter was also blocked. I cannot remember the all-party group for rail in the south-west. The document whether that was because of flooding, landslides or unfortunately does not mention anything west of Salisbury trees, but the route suffers from resilience and vulnerability in its opening pages or headlines. We have to look rather problems, which I shall discuss in a moment. I remember hard in the 180-plus pages to find anything at all about one famous weekend when I was coming back from my the line west of Salisbury. It is a very important line that constituency and I was literally stranded. I always take has a great future. my bicycle on the train between Exeter and London, and I had to put it in a taxi from Exeter all the way to I would like some reassurance that the proposals in Yeovil to get to the nearest train station. That, admittedly, the document will help Devon and enable Devon county was a rare event, but it helps to explain the sense of council to deliver its vision for a Devon metro public vulnerability and isolation that we have in the south-west, transport system around Exeter. It is a fantastic, sustainable with these two fantastic but ageing and in-need-of- vision for transport around Exeter, and it is exactly the investment rail connections. sort of thing that a forward-looking, visionary Minister, We can find one or two mentions of the line west of such as the right hon. Member for South Holland and Salisbury in the document, which are welcome, but I The Deepings (Mr Hayes), should support. I look forward hope that the Minister, when he sums up, will be able to to his addressing it in his response. 85WH Wessex Route Study (Passenger 2 DECEMBER 2014 Wessex Route Study (Passenger 86WH Capacity) Capacity) 2.50 pm to the railways, and there are now serious capacity issues. My constituents who return home in the evening Sir George Young (North West Hampshire) (Con): It often have to stand from Waterloo to Basingstoke because is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter, of the pressure on capacity. For those who travel in the and to follow the right hon. Member for Exeter morning from Andover, by the time the train reaches (Mr Bradshaw), who is a fellow former chairman of the Whitchurch and Overton it is often standing room only. all-party group on cycling—I propose to say something There is enormous pressure on seating at off-peak times— about bicycles in a moment. for example on Sunday evenings when university students I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for are returning. As my right hon. Friend said, that problem Basingstoke (Maria Miller) on her choice of subject is likely to become more acute. There is a forecast and on the way in which she made her case. My constituents 40% volume growth over the next 30 years. Andover, are further west than hers, but they share an interest in like Basingstoke, is growing fast, with major expansion increasing the capacity from Basingstoke to Waterloo. I towards the east of the town, and both Overton and commend her on the commitment to her constituents Whitchurch are likely to have more commuters. that she has shown in leading the campaign to drive up the quality of the service from Basingstoke to Waterloo. The west of England line will be a vital lifeline when As my right hon. Friend and the right hon. Member the A303 is dug up. As we heard yesterday, there will be for Exeter both said, this is a timely debate, as the Network a major improvement at Stonehenge, which I suspect Rail-South West Trains alliance route study has just will cause disruption, so people will rely on the west of been published for consultation. It is a good example of England line. As the right hon. Member for Exeter said, how the public and private sectors can work together it is a vital artery to the south-west, and it was the only for the benefit of customers by taking local ownership rail connection during the bad weather a few months of a problem and producing a collaborative solution. It ago. is a thorough document running to 159 pages. The problem at the moment is the massive constraint To put the debate in context, nearly 20 years ago I on capacity between Basingstoke, Woking and London. went on the first privatised train service from Twickenham That is the key issue addressed by the timely Wessex to Waterloo. It was at 10 past 5 in the morning on route study, which rightly takes a long-term view of Sunday 4 February 1996. The franchisee was South what needs to be done. I strongly support the measures West Trains, which has retained the franchise. A fare to speed up journey times and increase capacity on the dodger joined us, thinking that the train would be west of England line from Basingstoke to Salisbury by sparsely populated. Sadly for him, there were 100 journalists electrification and investing in faster and better rolling and 10 revenue protection officers on the train, so his stock. The study proposes possible solutions, including crime was swiftly detected. running double-deck trains to Basingstoke and increasing I mention that journey to emphasise how the context some line speeds to 125 mph—something available for has changed in the past 20 to 30 years. Before privatisation, more than 40 years on other lines, such as the Great the only sources of investment in Wessex rail services were Western railway line. British Rail and the Government. If there was pressure If possible, we would like more carriages during the on Government spending, the railways had to bear the off-peak period. Often, the trains to Andover have three pain. Nowadays, HMG are not the only source of cars, which are under pressure. I would have thought investment, although I commend the Minister on the that more rolling stock was available. Ticketing technology deal his Department has done with the Treasury. We now should be utilised. I would like to be able to print my have rolling stock operating companies and train operating ticket at home, which one can do on some lines, but at companies, which can invest in station improvements the moment one cannot do it on that franchise. I hope and service development using private funding. that in due course travellers will be able to swipe in and We have also created a railway operating industry, out at both ends of their journey. which we did not have before. We have bus companies, airline companies and shipping companies. Train operators One needs to keep an eye on the balance between first from overseas bid for franchises, thereby driving up the class and standard class to ensure that there is not quality of the service for rail passengers. That was over-capacity in first class and congestion in second simply not possible when British Rail had a monopoly. class. We need to keep an eye on provision for bicycles—I The new system keeps the franchise holders on their am sure the right hon. Member for Exeter agrees. The toes. most cost-effective and environmentally friendly way of Since winning the franchise some 20 years ago, South making a journey is to bicycle to the station, go by train West Trains has done much to build on what it inherited. and bicycle at the other end. To do that, the trains must Crucially, it has increased services. We now have two have the capacity to carry bicycles. I hope that will be a trains that run at off-peak times to Andover. It has also provision in the franchise. increased capacity, which I will return to in a moment. We need a rail link to Heathrow from Woking station. There has been significant station investment at Overton There was a proposal, which I think was called air link, and Andover, where we have a new newspaper and when I was in the Department that is now graced by my coffee shop, a refurbished waiting room and a new right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and ticket office. I commend the regular surgeries that South The Deepings (Mr Hayes). In the study, it is now called West Trains holds in the House, at which Members of the southern rail access to Heathrow. A lot of travellers Parliament can discuss issues on behalf of their constituents. from the south-west want to get to Heathrow. At the However, South West Trains has become the victim moment, they must get off at Woking and catch a bus. It of its own success, as my right hon. Friend the Member would be much more convenient for them to simply get for Basingstoke explained. It has attracted more people on a rail link to Heathrow. I think the track is there for 87WH Wessex Route Study (Passenger 2 DECEMBER 2014 Wessex Route Study (Passenger 88WH Capacity) Capacity) most of the journey, and I hope that my right hon. brought the new decked car park to the station. I say to Friend the Minister will confirm that that remains a my neighbour, my right hon. Friend the Member for priority. Basingstoke, that it is very good and very welcome, but There are some local issues on which Kit Malthouse, we should watch the lighting inside, which has to be who I hope will be the next Member of Parliament for right or there will be serious and legitimate safety North West Hampshire, and I are campaigning. There concerns. We have excellent new cycling facilities. As a are real constraints on car-parking capacity at Andover, vice-chair of the all-party group on cycling, I was Overton and Whitchurch stations. There are proposals pleased to see those facilities come online. for a two-storey car park at Andover, which is urgently We have a fantastic new footbridge at our railway required. We also need more capacity at Whitchurch, station. When I became a Member of Parliament, people where land is available to the north of the station. There had to get taxicabs from one side of the station to the is a proposal for a private operator to provide a passenger other, which was ludicrous. We now have wi-fi on many service from Andover to Ludgershall, perhaps on a services leaving Winchester, which is brilliant, and we steam train. It is supported by my neighbour, my hon. have made real steps on late-night safety around our Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry), a fellow railway station with the opening of a ticket office so Minister in the Department of my right hon. Friend the that people do not have to go through the dark side Member for South Holland and The Deepings. The gate. South West Trains—I do not apologise for pressing Ministry of Defence has kept that line working—it is it again on this—knows that it needs to do better on not used very often. I hope that my right hon. Friend that. the Minister will smile on a proposal to have a privately-run I am a regular commuter, and I receive feedback from steam train on that branch. constituents. The reliability of services on South West Finally, I want to underline the point made by my Trains is very good, and I get good feedback from right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke. We have people in that respect. That is not the issue on which I done as much as we can with the existing infrastructure, want to focus today. As others have said, the issue is and we now need a step change to increase capacity. with the lack of seats on the 6.31 am, the 6.48 am, the The study offers a way forward. I hope that my right 7.5 am and the notorious 7.18 am—standing with one’s hon. Friend the Minister, when he winds up the debate, face in an armpit is probably one of the best outcomes will smile on it and commend it as the right way forward. for which one can hope on that service—out of Winchester into London. That is what really hurts my constituents. 2.58 pm A constituent who knew I was hoping to speak in this debate sent me a note saying that the key issue is Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): Like other Members, obviously overcrowding on the early-morning services I congratulate my neighbour, my right hon. Friend the into Waterloo: “With ticket costs increasing year on Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), on securing year, and with little discernible increase in seating capacity, this debate. It is about an issue that she and I have insult is being added to injury.”The Wessex route study, discussed more times than we care to remember, and I which I welcome very much, confirms that and neatly have a feeling that we will talk about it many more times illustrates the current chronic undercapacity of services over the months and years ahead. from Winchester. He said, “This is not news, Mr Brine,” Today’s debate is a great success, not least given my and I completely agree. He talks about adding insult to right hon. Friend’s brilliant speech. Often in this House, injury—a standard season ticket between Winchester we talk about things that are declining and problems in and London costs £5,500 a year, which is, next to their this country, but debates about the railways start with a mortgage, the second biggest outgoing for many of my great success story. As my other neighbour, my right constituents. They are entitled to a seat for that money. hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young),correctly said, South West Trains is Mr Bradshaw: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that First the victim of its own success, and that could be said of Great Western has reduced the number of first-class the railway industry across our country. carriages on its trains from three to two? That is a very I do not wish to speak for too long, although time good idea, although were South West Trains to follow seems to be on our side—I want to hear from the suit, would he urge it not to lose the only quiet carriage Minister—but I want to make a couple of points. My in first class? I never go there myself because I am right hon. Friend said that we must watch first class always in standard class, but I have had complaints carefully. I completely agree; I have thought that for a from a number of people in the south-west who now long time. We have all seen surplus capacity in the have to put up with a lot of noise, as well as paying quite first-class carriages. The TOCs need to watch that closely. high fares. I have often wondered whether the idea of first-class provision on our railways is an anachronism in the Steve Brine: The right hon. Gentleman and I have modern age, but maybe that is a debate for another day. spoken many times about some of these issues on the For my constituents travelling to and from Winchester, all-party group on cycling. Yes, the number of carriages the issue is all about capacity.I have stations at Micheldever, should be reduced where there is a surplus, but I was Shawford and Chandler’s Ford in my constituency, but making a wider point about whether it is morally correct the vast majority of travellers, some 4.5 million a year, to have first-class and second-class carriages on the use Winchester railway station. Thousands commute railways. from Winchester to London, primarily, each day. On the subject of the so-called quiet carriage, some I echo others in mentioning some of the success of my constituents—and probably some of the right stories for my station and my service during this Parliament, hon. Gentleman’s constituents—would find the idea of which have been significant. A £3.5 million scheme a quiet carriage laughable. Even though there are big 89WH Wessex Route Study (Passenger 2 DECEMBER 2014 Wessex Route Study (Passenger 90WH Capacity) Capacity) [Steve Brine] as Denplan and to attract other big, quality employers, all of which reduces the necessity for people to travel to signs on the windows saying that the carriage is a quiet London every day. It is important that should happen. carriage, many people seem not to notice. I have heard Those are all things that we can do, but we cannot many mobile phone conversations in the quiet carriage control all of them. The issue is about capacity. during my travels, so the railways may need to do some The key constraints for passenger services are highlighted education work. in the study, which states: I was talking about the cost of a standard season “the layout of the Waterloo throat restricts the number of services ticket for my constituents, which is huge. It actually that can access the platforms at any one time; the layout at costs more to get a season ticket from Winchester to Clapham Junction does not allow all trains that currently pass Waterloo than it does from Southampton to Waterloo, through the station to stop there”. even though we are nearer London. South West Trains The study continues: is well aware of that issue, and I wish it would address the situation. Part-time season tickets are a nut that we “A further constraint on the ability…to accommodate passenger have failed to crack, and I would be interested if the growth is the capacity of some station car parks”. Minister had a comment on that issue. Smart ticketing We have gone some way in that respect, but many other is a coming issue, and I believe I am right in saying that places have not yet done so. it requires some sort of change at parliamentary level. Capacity is the issue. I admit that I was sceptical Perhaps the Minister will clarify that situation. about the local enterprise partnerships, but they are High demand for peak commuter services to Waterloo part of the solution, as is Hampshire county council. from all our constituencies is, as my right hon. Friend Winchester Action on Climate Change sent me a brief the Member for Basingstoke said, expected to increase ahead of today’s debate and, judging by its name, it is dramatically over the years ahead. She coherently set keen on railway travel, as am I. The organisation makes out the housing development in her area; in my area our some positive contributions, and it will be responding local plan, which is almost complete, is for 12,500 to the route study in due course. houses in the district over the next 20 years. Two thousand My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke houses at the Barton Farm site, which is but half a mile talked about a significant plan of investment, which is from Winchester railway station, have been given to exactly what is needed—now really is the moment for go-ahead in the past few years. I bitterly opposed that that. Ahead of this debate one of my constituents said development. Yes, there will be a new primary school on to me, “A lot of the discussion points in the Wessex the site, and there will be other infrastructure improvements route plan are very big-picture and will take a long time, from such a big development, but a brand new mainline cost a lot of money and need a lot of political and railway station will not be built for my constituents as a stakeholder buy-in. What can we do in the short term?” result of that development, so something has to change I place one point on the record for the Minister’s and something has to give. consideration—I know he likes to muse on these things. Southampton airport is a very short train ride from As a temporary solution, could we make greater use of my constituency. Passengers going to and from that Victoria station for trains coming in from the Wessex airport come through my railway station, and air passenger area? I leave that idea for him to ponder. projections are only expected to grow. People relocating from London to places such as Winchester are welcome, You will be pleased to know, Mr Streeter, that I have and we enjoy having them. They come because of the nearly finished. First, however, I have some questions “cheaper” housing in Winchester—everything is relative for the Minister. I know that St Pancras and all the in life, but housing is certainly cheaper than in west investment there are very much on Ministers’ radars, London. They come to Winchester for the good schools, but is Waterloo on the Minister’s radar? I do not know the great quality of life and the fantastic Christmas whether it is, but it needs to be. market that we have right now, but they want to commute back into London. They have every right to expect that The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John they should be able to do that, and many contact me to Hayes): I may be able to deal with that point now, so say that they are horrified at the cost and the standing that we can settle the issue. Waterloo is absolutely on that they have to endure. our radar. Further improvements will be made in terms There are things that we can do, and others have of platforms coming into Waterloo, but I want to go a mentioned some of them. The national infrastructure little further, as the Rail Minister for the day. I think we plan published yesterday has some very good should take the lead from King’s Cross and St Pancras announcements for my area. As I said in the House, the when it comes to the look and feel of some of our major improvements to junction 9 of the M3, on which I stations. On that basis, we could do a great deal of work campaigned for many years, are incredibly welcome. at Waterloo. I will ask officials to discuss the matter The smart motorways technology around junctions 10 and with the relevant people in the same spirit as my hon. 14 are also a welcome investment in our motorway Friend has shown. infrastructure for my constituents. Credit to the Minister and his Department for doing that. I thank him on Steve Brine: That is a fantastic response, and my behalf of my constituents. colleagues here will be pleased to hear it. Today must be There are things that we can do as a city. One of the the start of the conversation. The document is an core corporate priorities of Winchester city council is to excellent starting point, and we will all respond to it, as reduce the daily outward migration from the city for it has been suggested we must. As a group, Members work, which is why the council is so keen to redevelop from Hampshire are happy to see the Minister at any Station approach, to keep top-quality employers such time to help push this conversation forward. 91WH Wessex Route Study (Passenger 2 DECEMBER 2014 Wessex Route Study (Passenger 92WH Capacity) Capacity) Do the Government have a view on double-deck rolling Lilian Greenwood: I thank the right hon. Lady for stock, which is mentioned in the document? Clearly, that intervention, and I will set out in due course some there are lots of historical issues to do with bridges, of the issues around investing in the railways to meet which sometimes make that particular issue challenging, demand. but does the Minister have a view? There are some short-term steps that can be taken We have had a good document, a good start and an toward the 60% increase in capacity that is required. I excellent debate. I am glad to hear that Waterloo is so am sure that, like me, the Minister is regularly lobbied— firmly on the Minister’s radar. However, we really have perhaps he is not, as he is only the stand-in Rail Minister done as much as we can on car parking, wi-fi, cycle today—on the need to extend trains that are formed of parking, foot bridges, the wonderful new concessions at fewer than 10 carriages or even 12 carriages. Substantial Waterloo and making things nice for the traveller there. investment has gone into rolling stock over the last In many ways, that is the icing on the cake, but we now 15 years, and I am proud of the last Government’s need to go back and work on the cake—that is about decision to fund the removal of unsafe, slam-door the infrastructure and the routes in and out of Waterloo. coaches from the region. In particular, my right hon. That is where we need real help and real change for all Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) deserves our constituents. credit for the steps he took when he was Minister of State for Transport to bring together the train operators 3.12 pm and manufacturers to hammer out a solution, which, Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): It is a just a few years earlier, was thought impossible. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for, I think, the first time, Mr Streeter. I congratulate the right hon. There are routes where more carriages could be added Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller) on securing and more trains run. As the report makes clear, however, this timely debate. She spoke persuasively about the the increase in capacity could be as little as 3% on some discomfort many of her constituents face, the inconvenience routes in the Wessex area, and some sections of track experienced when services are inadequate and the have reached the effective limit of their capacity on unacceptable numbers who have to stand on their daily current signalling systems. We cannot pretend that there commute and even in the evenings and at weekends. are easy solutions. Network Rail is clearly exploring all the options, including, as the hon. Member for Winchester I would like to take this opportunity to say how said, the possibility of running double-decker trains for welcome it is to face the Minister for the first time. In the first time in Britain since 1971. In that case too, May, I had the pleasure of travelling through his however, there are significant obstacles to overcome. constituency on the line through Spalding. I know that he is familiar with Nottingham South, because he was a I would like to focus on two points: first, the need for councillor in Wollaton for many years. I am sure that at better planning of investment and the co-ordination of some point he would be glad to hear about the excellent infrastructure improvements with orders for new trains; work his Labour successors are doing in the area. and, secondly, the rising cost of living for passengers The Wessex area suffers from serious overcrowding who have faced fare rises of 20% in the last four years. and other capacity constraints. The 07.32 service from In some cases, the prices of season tickets have risen Woking to London is reckoned to be the most overcrowded even faster, and fares are, of course, set to rise again in commuter train in the country. The hon. Member for January. Winchester (Steve Brine) described the uncomfortable The Wessex area is one of the busiest on the whole commute he and his constituents face from his area. network in both passenger numbers and the frequency The route study itself says: of trains. As right hon. and hon. Members have said, “Standing is commonplace from Woking and Basingstoke”, the railways have seen a spectacular increase in the and those are clearly not the only parts of the route that number of passengers over the last 20 years. They now are affected. carry the same number of passengers as in the 1920s, on Waterloo is the busiest station in Britain and has the a network that is less than half the size. That growth is second highest number of train movements on the probably not a result of privatisation; it has happened network. The region has vital freight links, especially because, under 13 years of the Labour Government, from the port of Southampton to the midlands and the there was record public investment in our railways. We north. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter could contrast that with the early 1990s. Network SouthEast (Mr Bradshaw) said, it also provides an important had a major rolling stock order cancelled, even though alternative route to the south-west and vital local it would have provided new trains. Instead, the industry connections for his constituents. saw job losses and 1,000 days without rolling stock The Wessex route study is a sobering reminder of the orders. It took Labour to intervene to get rid of those challenges the region faces. According to Network Rail, unsafe, slam-door, mark 1 coaches. Let me just give an a 20% boost in capacity is needed to address just the idea of the scale of that spending commitment. Some current levels of overcrowding. To meet expected growth £500 million had been spent on the South West Trains in demand, a further 40% increase in capacity is needed area by the early 2000s—the same amount that was by 2043. The question is how that additional 60% can provided to the entire Network SouthEast sector under be found. the previous Conservative Government. I am very proud of Labour’s record of investing in the railways, and I am Maria Miller: Would the hon. Lady like to reflect on delighted that investment has continued under the current why we we already have a 20% shortfall in capacity? The Government. former Labour Government encouraged so much demand and so many houses were built in the area, but there was In the context of long-distance Wessex services, the simply no investment in the rail or road networks to study notes: make that house building sustainable. “Capacity has failed to keep pace with rising demand.” 93WH Wessex Route Study (Passenger 2 DECEMBER 2014 Wessex Route Study (Passenger 94WH Capacity) Capacity) [Lilian Greenwood] We also need to plan ways for the rail network to benefit from major projects, which, as the report It is clear that, in the long term, significant infrastructure states, include High Speed 2, Crossrail and, potentially, improvements will be needed to accommodate more Crossrail 2. I am glad that HS2 Ltd is finally hiring an passengers and more trains. Although new services experienced operations manager to plan the options for could be run today, they would come at the expense of integrating HS2 with the existing network. It would be reliability. good if the Minister updated us on the progress that has It is worth dwelling on some of the language used in been made with that appointment. Crossrail 2 in particular the Wessex document. I think it is fair to say that the could benefit the Wessex area, because some local services Wessex route study was not intended for a wide readership, could enter the proposed tunnel at Wimbledon, freeing but passengers should be aware of the decisions being capacity at Waterloo. Whatever the Davies commission taken about their services and of the potential impact recommends, we want better rail links to Heathrow, Gatwick on the quality of their journeys. Options are being and regional airports such as Southampton. We need to considered even though they could adversely affect know that that planning work is already under way and other services. Also, frankly, the English could be plainer. that decisions about allocation of that capacity are made When the option of running more trains is raised, the fairly. Perhaps the Minister will deal with that point. route study says: As the right hon. Member for Basingstoke, my right “At this level of network utilisation, further measures are likely hon. Friend the Member for Exeter and the hon. Member to be required to ensure the service can be operated punctually for Fareham (Mr Hoban) said, it is also important to and reliably”. strengthen links between towns and cities outside London. Of the Windsor line, it says: For example, off peak, the Basingstoke to Portsmouth train runs at only 32 mph. Proposals for a faster Brighton “Increasing the overall level of service into London Waterloo to Bristol service are welcome, but, again, passengers will to 20 tph”— want to know the implications for existing local services. trains per hour— The five-year control periods have been an important “on the Windsor lines may have a small negative impact upon the mechanism for funding the railways with a degree of overall level of punctuality and reliability”. certainty. A project that was due to be completed in On the option of adding two more long-distance services control period 5 was the conversion of the Southampton an hour, it states: to Basingstoke line from third-rail to overhead-line “Additional performance mitigation measures may be required”. electrification, a project that could bring significant cost savings. It was included in the Government’s 2012 Punctuality on South West Trains is already below the high-level output specification statement for this control national average. It would be helpful if the Minister period, but the route study says that conversion is explained what exactly the effect would be on existing intended trains if infrastructure improvements were not made. “between Basingstoke and the docks at Southampton at some Of course, the plans also require the purchase of new point during CP6.” trains: 72 new passenger trains are required in the peak There has been uncertainty about the wider electrification by 2024, and 156 new vehicles are required by 2043. programme, with reported cost increases of at least There is also the possibility of running specialised double- £500 million, so will the Minister confirm today that the decker trains from Waterloo to Basingstoke and Basingstoke to Southampton project has been delayed? Southampton. I am sure that passengers would welcome the increase in the number of seats, but the challenges Finally, but most important, passengers face ever- of raising and widening bridges and tunnels on the increasing travel costs, even when commuters are unable route are likely to be significant. There have already to board trains at stations and thousands are forced to been too many decisions about rolling stock that have stand every day. As the hon. Member for Winchester not been co-ordinated with infrastructure changes. The noted, some people’s season ticket costs almost as much technical challenges of the proposals in the document as their mortgage. Fares have risen on average by 20% show up the need for a proper long-term rolling stock since 2010, even though wages have risen by only 5% in strategy that will bring together decisions about procurement the same period, and they are set to rise again in and infrastructure investment. January. Ministers’ decision to restore “flex” after the election has led to some fares rising even higher than the supposed cap. A season ticket from Basingstoke to Steve Brine: Does the hon. Lady agree that we are London now costs £724 more than it did in 2010—an uniquely well placed within the rail industry to do some increase of 21.6%. There is evidence that “flex” has of the things she has mentioned, because the South been used unfairly to target commuters who have no West Trains and Network Rail alliance is the bringing choice but to travel by train. The Government evidently together, as far as possible within the legislative framework, agree, at least in principle, because they scrapped the of track and TOC? “flex” for 2015—for one year only. I will finish by asking the Minister whether he will bring relief to commuters Lilian Greenwood: I think that the deep alliance on in Wessex and the rest of the country by implementing a the Wessex routes provides interesting opportunities, real cap on fare rises, and scrapping “flex” completely. although there is much talk in the industry about the fact that, although it sounds good, what it will deliver is 3.25 pm not clear. We really need to break down the fragmentation to make sure there is symbiosis between the planning of The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John infrastructure and the procurement of rolling stock, Hayes): What a pleasure it is to serve under your which of course falls outside the alliance. chairmanship, Mr Streeter, and to be Rail Minister for a 95WH Wessex Route Study (Passenger 2 DECEMBER 2014 Wessex Route Study (Passenger 96WH Capacity) Capacity) day! It is not the first time, as I have already performed developing plans for improvements to the forecourt of once in that capacity, but I am delighted to do so again, Basingstoke station. Those works are yet to be guaranteed, particularly in response to the Adjournment debate of but, if approved, they will start next year, with an my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke estimated value of £30,000. We want to make the station (Maria Miller). I congratulate her on securing it. as attractive as it can be and that work on the forecourt My right hon. Friend has once again shown that she will do just that. is a great champion of the interests of the people of Crowding on services to Basingstoke and other Basingstoke. She has also brought to the Chamber’s destinations along the south west main line to London attention some wider issues, which I shall attempt to Waterloo, the UK’s busiest railway station, is, as my right address in the limited time available. Should I not be hon. Friend said, a continuing challenge. One might say able to get to all the matters raised by hon. Members—and that it is a well known issue. Ensuring that there is there were many—I shall certainly write to them with enough capacity on trains is one of the highest priorities details afterwards. for passengers and it is one of the key issues that we are I think it was G.K. Chesterton who said: tackling head on. The matter has been raised by a range “The centre of every man’s existence is a dream.” of speakers in the debate, including my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George It was that spirit that led to the creation of this country’s Young), my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester railways; without the vision and the dream, the reality (Steve Brine) and the hon. Member for Nottingham would not have happened. That spirit, vision and passion South (Lilian Greenwood). I am pleased and extremely for railways is needed at the core of future policy. Of proud that the Government have pledged more than course utility matters, but we must not be constrained £38 billion in support for the rail industry in England by facts. We must have a big view of what railways can and Wales over the period 2014 to 2019. That massive be, and what we can achieve. I shall attempt to imbue all investment will significantly contribute to improving that I say today with that passion for what railways can the capacity and quality of the network, which is seeing be. such a big growth in demand. My right hon. Friend made it clear that we are going through a railways renaissance. She was right to highlight I will return in a moment to another aspect of what the doubling in passenger numbers and to say that the my right hon. Friend raised. She is right to say that, in prophecies of the prophets of doom at the time of anticipating capacity demand, we need to look across privatisation have been frustrated by the response of the government at the effects of other policies: the consequences railway industry and passengers to the opportunities of our plan for growth and the relationship of that with provided by rail travel. I was grateful that she brought transport and travel—rail travel, in particular. In that that to the attention of the Chamber. spirit, she will be happy to hear that the investment I described includes a significant commitment to the Across Great Britain, railways are playing an increasingly South West Trains network. important role in economic development, are they not? When we speak of travel and transport, we need to speak It may be helpful if I explain to my right hon. Friend of well-being as well as the economic effect, although and other Members the process for delivering capacity the economic effect is not inconsiderable. Rail links improvements, because that was raised by both my right people to their homes, jobs and recreational pursuits. hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire That is particularly true across the south-east commuter and my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester. Essentially, network, including the Wessex route. As my right hon. it is a two-stage process. In the first instance, it is Friend said, passenger numbers have doubled across the necessary to tackle the issues that constrain the suburban country in the past 15 years, and the Wessex route is no network in order to create the extra platform capacity at exception. London Waterloo station. That will allow the industry It might be helpful to begin with if I were to explain to address the mainline capacity issues, which will benefit that Network Rail’s Wessex route encompasses the long- my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke, her distance routes of London Waterloo to Portsmouth, constituents and other constituencies. As I pledged Southampton, Weymouth, Salisbury and Exeter. It also earlier, in providing that extra capacity at Waterloo, we serves the north downs line, linking Reading and Guildford will also look at the style and character of that station. to Redhill and Gatwick airport. It is therefore a vital In a sense, we raised the bar at St Pancras and King’s component of the railway network, transporting millions Cross and people now expect the look and feel of of commuters into London and providing essential London stations to match the best. We can do more in links to Gatwick and Southampton airports. I promise those terms at Waterloo. the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) that I In September, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, will deal with the south-west part of the network, as I my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry), attempt to address the range of matters raised in this announced the latest capacity enhancement to be contracted important debate. with South West Trains. As part of plans to provide South West Trains operates about 1,700 services a capacity for an extra 24,000 peak-time passengers each day, and about 222 million passenger journeys were day, 150 new vehicles are being manufactured by Siemens made on its trains last year. In Basingstoke station to be put into passenger use by the start of 2018. alone, there are more than 5 million entries and exits a However, the hon. Member for Nottingham South—as year. In debates such as these, I like to offer Members she said, I know her constituency well—made a good rather more than a litany of what we have already done point in saying that we need to ensure that our policy is and to give them the prospect of what we intend to do. I coherent. We need to be certain that the changes we am delighted to tell my right hon. Friend the Member make to rolling stock are integrated with the other for Basingstoke today that South West Trains is currently necessary engineering considerations. I will ask officials 97WH Wessex Route Study (Passenger 2 DECEMBER 2014 Wessex Route Study (Passenger 98WH Capacity) Capacity) [Mr John Hayes] To begin with, it may be useful to explain that major investments in the railway are funded on the basis of to look afresh at that to ensure that we are pulling five-year funding cycles known as control periods, as together all the necessary decisions in the way she hon. Members have mentioned. We are currently in proposed. control period 5, which began earlier this year and will On the introduction of the new fleet, I should say run until 2019. During this control period, the Government that existing trains will be cascaded, which will provide are providing Network Rail and the rest of the rail some additional mainline capacity, including one additional industry with more than £16 billion to upgrade and peak service from each of Basingstoke and Woking. enhance the networks in England and Wales. It is from That is in addition to the extra 108 carriages that are that funding pot, known as the Government’s rail already starting to arrive and are being put into passenger investment strategy, that many of the capacity enhancements service, to increase capacity each day by 23,000 at peak I have already referred to will be financed. times. A similar cascade is also adding capacity to a The right hon. Member for Exeter asked specifically number of peak mainline services that are not already about services to his area. As he knows, although the operating at maximum capacity. That issue was raised rest of the Chamber may not—you will know this, during the debate and it is very much part of our Mr Streeter, given your local expertise—Exeter has two thinking. routes to London. The great western line is being upgraded During the same period, Network Rail will carry out during control period 5. That will include a number of major enhancement and renewal works in and around resilience improvements, but I will ask that they are the Waterloo area at a cost of several hundred million considered closely again to take account of some of the pounds. The signalling system that covers much of the points that he made. The second route, via Salisbury, suburban network needs to be renewed, as my right enjoys less demand and has less capacity. I think, however, hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire that the route study needs to consider longer-term said. As part of that project, a new turn-back facility options to increase capacity, with more passing places will be created so that an additional four services can and options for electrification of that route. As a direct operate at peak times from Hounslow to Waterloo. result of this debate and the right hon. Gentleman’s overtures, I will ensure that we look at that closely and By 2017, Network Rail will have carried out works to communicate those thoughts to him. bring the remaining four platforms at the former Waterloo International terminal back into full operational use for My right hon. Friend the Member for North West scheduled domestic services, restoring a vital piece of Hampshire, speaking with all the expertise from his the south western route infrastructure to domestic use. own involvement in this Department as a distinguished The availability of those extra platforms is essential to Minister many years ago, before I entered the House—I the plans to extend platforms 1 to 4 at Waterloo. Those was going to say “when I was a child”, but that would platforms serve the main suburban routes and, once be something of an exaggeration—raised any number extended, they will be able to accommodate 10-car-length of fascinating matters. I will make all kinds of commitments trains. That will remove the last constraint that has for to him, because if one is the Rail Minister for the day, many years hampered plans to increase mainline suburban one can do just that. The civil service will be shaking in capacity beyond trains with a maximum of eight cars. its boots as I make this speech. All that takes time, and considerable effort in planning, to minimise impact on passengers. That point has Sir George Young: Go for it. been made and I recognise that people will have concerns— these are major engineering schemes and, as they are Mr Hayes: Ongoing developments for cycle space implemented, we need to ensure that disruption is provision should be part of all franchises, in my judgment, minimised. There will be some disruption, however, so and from today they will be. we have made it clear to the south-western railway that it will have to deliver high quality communication to its The business decisions of train operators on the issue passengers about what that will mean to their daily of first and standard class balance has been raised by a journey as it makes its plans. number of hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester. We need to ensure that we However, I have every confidence that the long-term make best use of space on trains. That use will vary capacity uplift will be warmly welcomed by passengers from time to time and I do not want to make any and the prospect of better services will make short term prescriptive judgment, but discussion of that issue needs disruption more acceptable. My experience is that, when to take place regularly, based on a proper analysis of people know where they stand, they can adjust their use. If, as has been described, some carriages are empty arrangements accordingly, but it is important that we and others are full to the point of bursting, we need to get the information out. I will endeavour to ensure that respond to that situation. Members in affected areas are informed of the changes at the earliest opportunity so that they can act as one of The argument about Heathrow southern access was a the conduits for the dispersal of that important information. really good one. We need to have a new study on that We will look at other mechanisms as well. issue, which should begin this autumn and which should be published as soon as possible, ideally—indeed, at the I understand that, even with this investment, some of latest—by early next year, and we need to consider what the capacity issues on the main line remain and that that more can be done. is a source of some frustration for my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke and other Members. I On the issue of car-parking capacity, it is important therefore turn to the process for securing further investment that we identify demand and sites for car parks, and I in the railway. am more than happy to commit to working with local 99WH Wessex Route Study (Passenger 2 DECEMBER 2014 Wessex Route Study (Passenger 100WH Capacity) Capacity) councils to do that. Perhaps we just need to drop a line means that trains moving in one direction do not get in to those local authorities to remind them of our willingness the way of trains going in the other direction, preventing to have that kind of dialogue, particularly where we some of the frustrating stopping and starting with know, from Members across the House, that there are which many rail travellers are familiar. pressing problems. There is a history at certain stations In addition, the draft route study sets out options for of parking issues, so perhaps we can initiate some new the possible introduction of double-decker trains between thinking on that. Basingstoke and London; such trains were mentioned When they think of railways, everyone thinks of earlier in the debate. Although they are a common sight Stephenson; some, with a more curious turn of mind, in other European countries, they have not really appeared think also of Hodgkinson; and all romantics—such as on the British rail network, partly due to the height of you and me, Mr Streeter—think of Jenny Agutter and some of our Victorian tunnels and bridges. As I have John Betjeman, do we not? We think of “The Railway said, because I value the historic estate I would not Children” and Betjeman’s advocacy of the romance of want to see those tunnels and bridges being disregarded. rail. To that end, I would be very happy to facilitate Nevertheless, while the introduction of double-decker contact with Network Rail to allow the steam train that trains would necessitate the adaptation of the network, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Network Rail is of the view that they may be a viable Friend the Member for Devizes, who has ministerial option on certain lines, and I am sure that my right hon. responsibility for rail, has pressed for. Indeed, the case Friend and her constituents would relish the chance to for that train was amplified today by my right hon. lead the roll-out of such exciting technology on their Friend the Member for North West Hampshire. Let us line, becoming early beneficiaries of the additional capacity allow this to happen, and in that spirit let us look again that it would bring. at the historic estate. We have many old railway stations, Let me reiterate that these ideas are some of the some of which could be brought back into use. We also emerging views for control period 6. The draft route have many glorious signal boxes; more of them should study has been articulated and published by Network be listed. Let us once again be bold and ambitious to Rail, based on the information available to it at the time have our dream of the romance of rail, and turn that the route study was published. Indeed, the document dream into a reality. acknowledges that the dominant issue is the need to My right hon. Friend talked about the capacity issue. provide sufficient capacity in peak periods, and consequently Of course, his area will benefit from the commitment to it has focused on developing choices to address that increase capacity at Waterloo during the period between issue where needed, such as options to increase peak 2014 and 2019, and from proposals to “grade separate” main-line capacity through use of new technology and working junctions in control period 6. I will come on to “grade separated” junctions. that in a moment, because it is important to say first To that end, Network Rail is working with Transport that the process for identifying possible investments and for London, local authorities along the route and other upgrades for the next control period—between 2019 stakeholders better to understand their views on these and 2024—began recently.As such, there are opportunities matters. My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke for my right hon. Friend, other Members and the public eloquently and clearly outlined the other pressures that in general to contribute to this process and to influence are likely to affect capacity. I know that she is concerned the Government’s next rail investment strategy. that the housing growth that is planned in and around When these drafts are issued, it is important that her constituency will have a dramatic impact on that right hon. and hon. Members understand that they can demand-supply balance. play a part in shaping the final outcomes. When I last I want my right hon. Friend to know today that I spoke on railway matters, I emphasised that these things understand that concern, and that the Government are not set in stone. The whole process is by its nature appreciate the point she made about the importance of consultative, and drafts should not be deemed to be the ensuring that wider policies are fully taken into account final word on these matters, but instead a catalyst for when capacity on this line is being planned. The case fresh thinking, with right hon. and hon. Members playing she has made has been heard by the Government and a vital role in the process. will be built into our further considerations. I return to the specific part of the railway under Maria Miller: I thank the Minister for giving way; he discussion today. Network Rail recently published its is generous with his time. It is incredibly reassuring to draft Wessex route study for just that kind of consultation. hear what he is saying, because at this point in time it It highlights the network constraints in the area of appears that house-building levels are not taken into Basingstoke, which include a mix of speed limits and account when future capacity is determined, and indeed the confluence of several lines. Due to its location on that capacity is more likely to be determined by the the south-west main line, Basingstoke suffers from the number of new jobs generated in London than by the convergence of several routes further up the line at number of houses being built in my constituency, or Woking, as my right hon. Friend the Member for indeed in the constituencies of my hon. Friend the Member Basingstoke suggested. for Winchester (Steve Brine) and my right hon. Friend For those reasons, two of Network Rail’s emerging the Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George priorities for the next control period are, as I said earlier Young). We need to make sure that this issue is taken when dealing with my right hon. Friend’s questions, to into account, so that we can ensure that the proper “grade separate”the junctions at Woking and Basingstoke. increase in capacity on the line is put in place now. For the benefit of those Members who do not speak in railway terms, as I myself did not until very recently, Mr Hayes: My right hon. Friend needs to know that that term refers to the lifting, via a bridge, or dropping, Basingstoke, North West Hampshire and Winchester via a tunnel, of a track over or under another, which are never far from my mind, and that they have been 101WH Wessex Route Study (Passenger 2 DECEMBER 2014 Wessex Route Study (Passenger 102WH Capacity) Capacity) [Mr Hayes] My right hon. Friend has done the House a great service in bringing these matters before it. The Government brought to the forefront of my mind today. As a result are wholly committed to the railways and to rail investment. of this debate, I will ask my officials to take into account We published our investment strategy for roads yesterday. the views she has articulated and to make it perfectly That, and our approach to rail, is indicative of breadth of clear that—in a proper, joined-up and coherent way—we thinking and a long-term approach in respect of a consider some of the effects of growing population and transport strategy that is, I think it is fair to say, the likelihood of that growth increasing demand for rail unprecedented in its ambition. It is right that we should use. It would certainly be a fitting tribute to her and to think in those terms, because infrastructure and investment the debate she has stimulated today for me to deliver only serve economic purpose—they feed the common that fresh thinking for her, which is precisely what I will good—by adding to individual and communal well-being. try to do. To that end, my right hon. Friend made an important I think that the issue of ticketing was raised by my contribution— right hon. Friend—my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester mentioned it as well—and I am open to Lilian Greenwood: Will the Minister give way? further consideration of the options, in terms of technological changes, that would speed up the ticketing Mr Hayes: As I am on well-being, I am delighted to process. I am also mindful of what my right hon. Friend give way. said about fares. My commitment on fares is very clear.

Steve Brine: On ticketing, I specifically mentioned Lilian Greenwood: I am interested in the Minister’s part-time season tickets, which constituents constantly comments about the need for long-term vision and raise with me. It is a smart-ticketing issue, but is that certainty. There has been a remarkable lack of long-term solely down to the train operating companies or is there vision on the issue of fares. When his Government were a regulatory issue that the Government need to intervene elected, they were talking about raising fares by the RPI on before part-time season tickets can be made available? plus 3%, and we had announcements taking it down to Perhaps he will write to me on the subject. RPI plus 1%, then to RPI. I am sure that is incredibly welcome for the hard-pressed commuter, but it does not Mr Hayes: I will write to my hon. Friend about the give any certainty either to operators or to passengers. detail, but my view about all these things is that there His scrapping “flex” for 2015 is welcome, but why is not should be a dialogue between the Government operating there a long-term commitment to scrap “flex” altogether, companies, because there we need lines of accountability to take the pressure off people who have had 20% fare for all public services to Government and, through the rises in just four years? Government, to this House. When hon. Members raise such issues, it is important that there are means by Mr Hayes: Again, Chesterton said that how you which they can be communicated to the people who behave when you lose determines how long it will be make the decisions. It is right that we have that dialogue, before you win. The hon. Lady’s thinking about fares and I assure my hon. Friend that that will take place. may herald her party’s eventually winning: it will not be We understand the issues about housing and why my for many decades, but it will happen. It is absolutely right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke introduced right that she presses me on this issue and, because I am this debate, and we understand the implications of her the Rail Minister for today, I make this commitment: argument. Responses to the consultation will, as I said, fares will not go up by more than inflation. I will also feed into the final version of the Wessex route study, commit to something else, which will cause some excitement which is due to be published next year. That will then in her constituency, which I know well, and feel that I help to inform the Government’s priorities for the next owe it this obligation. We are committed to electrifying rail investment strategy for the period 2019-24. the midland main line between London and Sheffield via Nottingham. She knows the difference that will Finally, as I reach my exciting peroration, may I make, as someone who, like me, travels regularly on that explain that as well as looking at potential funding line. priorities for control period 6, the Wessex route study is looking at much longer-term funding priorities for this What a great debate this has been. It has provided an route? I spoke about vision and dreams. We should be opportunity for hon. and right hon. Members to advance ambitious for this route and, in looking ahead to 2043, the interests of their constituents in the context of that we need to think about long-term changes to supply bigger vision of the significance of rail. This debate has and demand and about rail travellers’changing expectations, shown that the party divides in this place are small including considering increasing capacity—extra tracks—on compared with our shared commitment to do our best key sections closer to London or, indeed, Crossrail 2. by the people we represent. Again, on those matters of longer-term funding, all hon. Members and all interested parties are encouraged to respond to Network Rail’s consultation before 3.55 pm 17 February next year. Sitting suspended. 103WH 2 DECEMBER 2014 Textile Manufacturing 104WH

Textile Manufacturing Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I commend the hon. Gentleman on bringing this debate to the House today. He and I have both purchased the Yorkshire suit. Does 4pm he agree that if anyone wants to support textile manufacturing in Yorkshire, one of the best things they Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): It is very good can do is buy a Yorkshire suit, the brainchild of to be here before you today, Mr Streeter. I am not his Mr Yorkshire himself, Keith Madeley? It uses material personal assistant, but I feel I should offer the apologies from Yorkshire, is manufactured in Yorkshire and is of of the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), the highest possible quality. who most people know would want to be here today. Unfortunately, he cannot be here. He sent his apologies Mr Ward: I hope that that intervention results in a to me, which I felt I should pass on. significant discount for the hon. Gentleman on the Allegedly, Mark Twain once said something along cloth. I should find out what he paid. The fabric is the lines of rumours of his death being greatly exaggerated. available in lengths of cloth for women, if they should Based on my experiences over a long period of time—it want to make up a suit. We are all selling here tonight. has certainly been my experience as an MP for the past It is all good news for the industry, but that creates four years—I can strongly confirm that rumours of the significant challenges, particularly in the availability of textile industry’s demise are greatly exaggerated. Not skilled labour. A high proportion of the sector’s skilled only that, but the industry is alive and thriving. Coming work force is nearing retirement age. I have been to from Bradford, I have seen the high quality of the Haworth Scouring, which deals with 100 tonnes of tops manufacturing work taking place across the whole of a week—large scale work is still going on. A gentleman the West Riding. was working in the sorting area and, were the business to lose him, it would lose one of the only sources of that That might seem an odd point to begin on, but it is skill across the whole area. That is how near we are to important for me to say, because even many of those losing precious skills. On that same visit, it was good to living in Bradford, where so many good things are see a young apprentice learning the trade from scratch going on, have a false belief that textile manufacturing and helping to provide the much needed next generation in Bradford and the West Riding is a thing of the past. of skilled people who are required for the industry’s It is true that 11,000-odd workers no longer pour out of continued success. Manningham mill, also known as Lister’s mill, or Salts mill. The huge volume of production that once made Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): I too congratulate my Bradford the wool capital of the world might have gone, hon. Friend on securing the debate. He mentioned but scouring, carding, dyeing, spinning, weaving and Abraham Moon, which is in my constituency. It has just finishing still take place to the highest standards. From spent £3 million on expansion, but it needs a skilled Huddersfield to Keighley and across to Pudsey and work force to meet demand. Does he agree that we need Shipley, companies are not only still producing yarn to put greater emphasis on apprenticeships, so that such and cloth, but doing so with great success. Such firms as mills can succeed? Abraham Moon—if one is mentioned, Hainsworth and Laxtons and everyone else has to be mentioned—are Mr Ward: Absolutely.With another hat on, as a member producing for Dolce & Gabbana, Paul Smith and Burberry of the Education Committee, we are exercised by the and doing exceptionally well in growth markets across problems of careers advice and ensuring that there are the world, in Japan, Europe and America. real careers for people, not only in textile manufacturing, It is of course not just about wool, much as I would but in manufacturing and in business. We need to ensure love to spend all day talking about it. I forgot to put my that fantastic jobs are available. Many parents will not Campaign for Wool badge on, but it is in my bag. even know that they exist, and one important part of Reshoring or onshoring is beginning to happen on a the debate is making more people aware of them. large scale, as “Made in Britain” once more becomes a Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I wish I was able sign of real value and a badge of quality. That is good to say that in my area we have had a massive increase in news. UK retailers such as John Lewis and Marks & the number of jobs available, but the reverse is true; we Spencer with its “Best of British” range have been falling have lost 15 or 16 factories over a number of years. over each other to announce plans to bring back production Even now, however, we still have people with the skills on an ever increasing scale. Volume manufacturing will to be involved in the factories and to take the opportunities. never return to its previous scale—the cut, the make Does the hon. Gentleman feel that with the opportunities and the trim will always be cheaper in the far east or available in Yorkshire—in Bradford and elsewhere—direct Turkey—but there does seem to be a successful future at contacts should be made with the Minister of Enterprise, the premium end of production, where short lead times Trade and Investment in Northern Ireland to ensure reduce the risks of markdowns for retailers. According that job transfers can take place and that those skills are to the manufacturing advisory service, one in six UK retained? manufacturers have brought back some production from overseas in the last 12 months, and that process continues Mr Ward: Absolutely. One of the big difficulties that apace. the industry faces is that it is not pharmaceuticals, the A further consideration is the ethical and sustainable automotive industry or aerospace, where big companies dimension of much overseas production. We all know can provide supply chains in local areas, which feed the about the Dhaka factory collapse, which should have skills back through to the big companies. In textiles, it is sent a sharp reminder to many UK retailers about the a lot of small businesses. Even the big mills exist without full cost—not just the financial cost—of some overseas long supply chains, which would provide skilled jobs sources of production. that offer that continuity. It is a serious issue, but do not 105WH Textile Manufacturing2 DECEMBER 2014 Textile Manufacturing 106WH

[Mr Ward] growth programme, about which I certainly know far more than I did an hour ago, after speaking to the despair. Many of the things I am saying on the potential project director, Lorna Fitzsimons. She told me about for reshoring and bringing back production from abroad some of the fantastic investments that are being made apply to other constituencies. through the programme, but I am interested in finding out whether there is a national strategic plan that underpins Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I congratulate such initiatives and where the sector fits in with the my hon. Friend on securing this important debate and on Government’s overall industrial strategy. his work with the all-party group on textile manufacturing. As he knows, there are 62 textile firms in Huddersfield, Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I concur with what employing thousands of people. We are proud that the my hon. Friend says and congratulate him on securing green jacket worn at Augusta by the winner of the the debate. I agree that the sector needs a strategic vision, Masters golf tournament is made in Huddersfield. Soft but will he reaffirm his welcoming of the Government’s furnishings in the White House are made in Huddersfield. textile growth programme? It has so far engaged with The crimson upholstery on Boris’s new Routemaster 68 companies in Lancashire, eight of which are based in buses is made in Huddersfield. Talking about skills, the Pendle and two of which have benefited from £200,000 company that produced that fabric, Camira Fabrics, is in grants and are now on target to create 104 jobs. I working with the Entice Project to employ new apprentices. agree with what he says about the strategic vision, but Does my hon. Friend agree that that is the way to get the textile growth programme is delivering for many the new skilled work force moving up? Will he join me companies across the north of England. in congratulating—I am proud of this—the 4,200 new apprentices in my constituency since 2010? Mr Ward: Absolutely. I hope to meet the programme’s project director next Tuesday in my constituency, but I Mr Ward: This is all excellent news, but how many already know the extent of the programme’s success people really know about it? It is a good news story of from previous conversations. which more and more people need to be made aware. However, a programme or initiative in itself does not There are particular implications for energising parents amount to a national strategy, which is the point that I to go out and find something other than the traditional am trying to make today. Textile manufacturing is not a route for their children and to discover the other options priority sector. There is no longer a textile team within that are available. It has the potential to inspire young the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. people into a manufacturing career. The manufacturing advisory service and UK Trade & As John Miln of the highly successful UK Fashion & Investment are working together as part of the “Reshore Textile Association said: UK”initiative, which is considering how to bring production “Volume manufacturing may never come back but there is back to this country, but the initiative is not specifically for significant interest in what we do make and whether we are able to the textile industry. Again, where does that fit in with the grow it”. overall strategy? I am concerned because of the industry The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) referred is fragmented, which has been a weakness over the years. to growing it everywhere. That is the big challenge we face. In addition to all that I have said about traditional Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): I congratulate my textile manufacturing, the global technical textiles industry hon. Friend on securing this debate. Does he agree that is growing at four times the rate of home and apparel we need support for the textile industry’s supply chain? textiles and now includes medical textiles, geotextiles, Burnley is home to a company called boohoo.com, which agrotextiles, protective clothing, textiles for the automotive is one of the biggest online fashion retailers in the country and aerospace industries, construction textiles and many and perhaps Europe. Its problem is that it buys 70% of others. its products in the UK and yet the supply chain is not Returning to John Miln’s comment, the big questions supported by the Government in any way. The aerospace are how we get the sector to grow and what future it has. and automotive supply chains receive Government support. All that I have said so far is really good news and many Does my hon. Friend agree that to help the textile supply miles away from the era of closure after closure, but at chain would create hundreds of jobs and stop a lot of this time of great opportunity what strategic support this country’s imports? are the Government giving to textile manufacturing? Back in 1998, after representations from clothing trade Mr Ward: That is exactly the point. I congratulate my associations and unions, John Battle, a Minister at the hon. Friend on the work that he does as the apprenticeship then Department of Trade and Industry, encouraged tsar. As has already been indicated, apprenticeships the formation of the textile and clothing strategy group have developed fantastically over the past few years, but to consider in detail the issues and challenges facing the they need continuous pushing so that parents, children sector. It was recognised that the industry made a major and young people see them as a viable alternative to the contribution to the UK economy and that a strategic traditional academic route—although apprenticeships approach was necessary if it was to improve its competitive do of course contain academic provision. position. A report called “A National Strategy for the I am concerned by the fragmented nature of the UK Textile and Clothing Industry” was produced and, industry. I worry that it may be overlooked as other as its name suggests, it provided the basis for a collaborative manufacturing sectors such as aerospace, pharmaceuticals plan for the future development of the industry. and the auto industry dominate Government thinking. The purpose of today’s debate is to ask the Minister If that were the case, it would be a shame and it would whether a similar plan exists today. I am aware of many be wrong. It would be good to hear today that the value worthwhile initiatives, and he may refer to the textile of clothing and textile manufacturing in its widest 107WH Textile Manufacturing2 DECEMBER 2014 Textile Manufacturing 108WH forms—I mentioned technical textiles—is understood The textiles growth fund has invested millions to by the Minister. Beyond that, it would be good to know support the development of textiles capability and to that the sector features in the Government’s long-term capitalise on the reshoring mentioned by the hon. plans for the growth and development of the UK’s Gentleman. Reshore UK, which is our overall scheme manufacturing base. through UKTI to support the reshoring of jobs back May I conclude by referring to the new all-party into the UK, is gathering pace. It provides support for parliamentary group for textile manufacturing that was companies that are reshoring jobs in all sectors. That is formed last year? We already have the successful all-party best done on a cross-economy basis, because many parliamentary fashions and textile group, and the aim is companies that sent production overseas now want to not to duplicate its work but to provide a clearer focus bring it back, often so that they can have shorter supply and concentration on UK textile manufacturing. It is chains, with shorter distances, and maintain a tighter still early days for the new group, but we are looking at grip on quality than is possible when exporting jobs. our work programme, in which the textile growth They face many of the same issues in lots of sectors, programme will certainly feature. We will report back whether textiles, high-value manufacturing or other areas. on that in the new year when the all-party parliamentary The overall target of the textiles growth fund is to fashions and textile group’s major report is finished. I create or safeguard a further 1,000 jobs and to leverage hope the Minister will take an interest in and see the in private sector investment on a ratio of 3:1. By the end importance of the new all party group and that he may October more than 60 grant applications had been funded, find the time to visit us to discuss Government support with total project value in excess of £25 million. The for textile manufacturing in this country. projects are expected to fulfil the jobs goal and to create at least 70 apprenticeships, demonstrating the money behind the Government’s clear objective of supporting 4.18 pm UK textiles manufacturing, in particular high-quality The Minister for Business and Enterprise (Matthew manufacturing. Hancock): I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Bradford The hon. Gentleman mentioned the skills shortage, East (Mr Ward) not only for securing this important which is an important issue. In Bradford, including his debate, but for his chairing of the all-party group for constituency, unemployment has fallen by 27% over the textile manufacturing, which he worked so hard to past year, according to the claimant count; in Huddersfield, set up as a champion for the sector. I also pay tribute it is down by 29%. Those are good figures, but with a to other hon. Members and hon. Friends for their tightening labour market, we are getting increased reports contributions. of skills shortages. The broader reforms to strengthen The manufacturing of textiles at scale has a long and and improve education in the UK are an important part proud history in the UK that goes right through the of the answer, but not an immediate one, because it industrial revolution and the industrial development of takes time for children who are benefiting from an Lancashire, Yorkshire, the east midlands and elsewhere. improved education to come through, so the importance Today, it plays a leading role even in my constituency in of on-the-job training and apprenticeships cannot be Suffolk, where Gurteen, a company set up in the 1700s overestimated. and still run by the same family, continues to thrive On skills, however, we are improving our support to making high-quality clothing mostly from wool. I pay ensure that it is more focused on what employers need. tribute to the firm and its work in the industry. Over Employer-led trailblazers are paving the way by writing time, much of the UK’s production moved overseas, new standards for apprenticeships, including in the and the numbers involved in manufacturing fell. It is textiles industry where standards are being developed in true that an impact was felt from the switch to lower-cost fashion and design to ensure that we capture the high-end countries. Nevertheless, in 2013 the textile manufacturing market, although not in the manufacturing of textiles, industry contributed £2.4 billion gross value added in which might be an area that we wish to address. As with the UK, and 60,000 jobs. industrial strategy as a whole, the invitation is open to The hon. Member for Bradford East asked what our sectors to approach and work in partnership with the strategy was. We are clear that the textiles growth Government to develop the apprenticeship standards programme, which several hon. Members mentioned, is required. a crucial part of the overall strategy. He asked what our goal was. Our goal is support for the textiles industry to Jim Shannon: As I asked in my intervention on the grow and expand here in the UK and, in particular, to hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward), is the support companies that are thriving through supplying Minister aware of the skills that we have available in high-end, niche products. He mentioned especially the Northern Ireland since the closure of many factories? technical textiles sector, which is growing fast internationally Will he agree to contact the responsible Minister in and in which the UK is at the cutting edge of research. Northern Ireland, Arlene Foster, the Minister of Enterprise, We can benefit from that so that we are also at the Trade and Investment, to see whether some of those cutting edge of some of the production. skills could be transferred from Northern Ireland to On the specific question of an overall strategy, of that area where there are vacancies at the moment? course the textiles growth programme is an important part of it. We have been clear—I have been very clear—that Matthew Hancock: Yes, I work regularly with the where an industrial strategy is required and demanded Northern Ireland Executive, including Arlene Foster, for a sector, we should work with the sector to develop on such issues. We should take up the question of the one. If that means that we need to expand what is transfer of skills. Northern Ireland’s apprenticeship reforms already available, I look forward to working with hon. are similar to our own, and we share the thinking about Members to achieve that. the need to ensure that the skills taught are the ones that 109WH Textile Manufacturing 2 DECEMBER 2014 110WH

[Matthew Hancock] Anti-freeze Products (Protection of Animals) companies need. The same direction of travel is being taken in Northern Ireland, so I will take that point away with me. 4.29 pm The employer ownership pilots are about putting Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): When MPs funding for skills training directly in the hands of employers. stand up to speak, it is traditional for them to say that The Huddersfield and District Textile Training Company they are delighted to give a particular speech, but I can has a multimillion-pound project that includes a textile honestly say that on this occasion I am not delighted to centre of excellence to help improve skills and, again, to be here. I would rather not be discussing this issue at all. ensure that we in the UK are adding to high-value We have had a traumatic summer in Sherwood. manufacturing in textiles and in other areas, because we Calverton, a village in my constituency in Nottinghamshire, recognise that that is where we can add value and create has to our knowledge suffered the loss of at least 22 cats the highly paid jobs that we want to see. due to poisoning with anti-freeze. Most of those losses were In addition, through the local response fund, two in the month of August, and people tend not to use anti- textiles projects have been approved in Manchester. For freeze in the middle of a heat wave; it is something they example, the north-west’s NWTextnet was awarded £75,000 consider using at this time of year, when their car could for dynamic portfolio management to achieve integration become frozen. However, anyone malicious who wants of new product development with reshoring manufacturing to cause harm to animals—wildlife or cats—can use capacity. Again, that is trying to drive up the skills in anti-freeze intentionally to cause an enormous amount textiles production into the high-end, high-spec skills, of devastation. The product can also cause that devastation which is where we see the UK market. accidentally. We therefore have a clear strategy. If further work I am grateful for the support of Nottinghamshire needs to be done, I am up for that, and the Government police and the Royal Society for the Prevention of are clear that we want to work with the sector to ensure Cruelty to Animals in trying to catch the perceived that we get the benefits at the high end, where the UK perpetrator of those poisonings. At this moment in time can add the most value. We need to deliver on the skills we are no closer to catching an individual who may be and the supply chains; we need to put the support in acting maliciously in that way, but we are working hard place where it is appropriate to spend taxpayers’ money, to educate the public in and around Nottinghamshire which is usually best defined as where the companies and to make sure that people are on the lookout for are themselves willing to participate side by side with us, anybody doing something suspicious or inappropriate. so that we can support the textiles industry, much as we I will outline the issue. Anti-freeze contains a product are doing in many other industrial sectors. We need to called ethylene glycol. It tastes quite sweet to small ensure, as the hon. Gentleman said, that “Made in animals, and to mammals in particular, but it is extremely Britain” is a highly esteemed badge of high quality. We toxic when consumed even in small doses. Once EG has need to build the small and medium-sized businesses in been consumed it is difficult to prevent the animal from the textiles sector so that we can bring them together. dying because it is so toxic. It forms very small crystals It is no surprise that of the brands that the hon. in the kidneys, leading rapidly to kidney failure, then Gentleman mentioned, where UK textiles in fashion death. The moments between consumption and death play an important part, he included the top-end brands are very traumatic for the animal, and owners of pets—cats that are among the most demanded and most expensive, or dogs—see unpleasant symptoms, such as vomiting, because that is where the UK can add value, reshore diarrhoea and extreme stomach cramps. Indeed, it is jobs and ensure that such jobs are high quality. If we one of the worst ways in which a pet can lose its life. The can turn that from a summary of what is happening on trauma that that causes families and individuals, particularly the ground into a strategy for how to make textiles families with small children who have become attached strong in the UK—how to make an optimistic future—in to the family pet, cannot be overstated. Bradford, Huddersfield and throughout Yorkshire, We might think that such poisoning is a rare occurrence Lancashire and the east midlands, the traditional heartlands and that Calverton’s loss of 22 cats is a one-off—some of the UK textiles industry, and indeed in Northern individual in the village is causing trouble, but it does not Ireland, we will take an historic and proud industry and happen anywhere else. Well, to my surprise that is not ensure that it continues to generate jobs and prosperity true. After putting our issue on social media and in the in the UK for many years to come. local press, I was inundated on Facebook and Twitter with messages from people all over the country who are experiencing similar issues and are concerned that their pets have been injured in that way. Cats Protection told me that it has been monitoring the media since November 2012 and is aware of 1,197 reports of such poisoning elsewhere in the country. That equates to 50 deaths a month, or more than a cat and a half—if we could have a cat and a half—a day suffering that terrible trauma. That sends a simple message to us as a Government: we have to do something to help and to try to prevent that from happening. A lot of the debate on forums and on social media is about a product called Bitrex, which makes products such as anti-freeze very bitter and unpalatable. Bitrex 111WH Anti-freeze Products (Protection of 2 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-freeze Products (Protection of 112WH Animals) Animals) makes anti-freeze so unpalatable that one very small families involved. Every one of those 22 cats would have taste or sniff would prevent an animal—and we are not been a loved family pet. The situation is made all the just talking about cats and dogs; it could be hedgehogs worse by knowing that, as he pointed out, death by or other small mammals in our countryside—from poisoning by this particular product is quite painful—that consuming it at all. If someone was malicious enough will have caused a great deal of stress to the families to try to mix such a product with chicken or tuna, the concerned. bitter taste would remain in the anti-freeze and, we I understand that the RSPCA is investigating the case hope, would prevent a pet from consuming it. and that a meeting was held recently with police and I ask the Minister and his Department for four specific villagers to discuss the issue. The cause and circumstances, things. First, will he explore the mandatory inclusion of as my hon. Friend pointed out, are not clear at this Bitrex in anti-freeze for purchase in the UK? It is stage, but the high number of deaths in one village possible to buy anti-freeze and other products that during the summer suggests something more sinister already contain Bitrex, and some reputable retailers sell than a simple accident. only those anti-freeze products that contain it. However, It is important to recognise that deliberate poisoning other retailers sell the quality products but also a cheaper is an offence under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and is version, at 50p less per bottle, next to them on the shelf. punishable by a fine of up to £20,000 and/or six months’ We should look seriously at making manufacturers imprisonment. I do not know why anyone would want include Bitrex in all anti-freeze products available in the to poison cats deliberately by using anti-freeze, but UK. there have been such instances in the recent past and I also urge the Minister to talk to his colleagues in the they have been dealt with using the full force of the law. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills who For example, in July a man was convicted of using can ask the manufacturers of such products—anti-freeze anti-freeze to poison five cats and was fined £1,600. In screenwash and also anti-freeze for radiators—to look April, another man received a 12-week suspended prison at manufacturing alternatives that do not contain ethylene sentence for poisoning a cat with anti-freeze. As my glycol. There are products out there available for purchase hon. Friend said, it is too early to know whether the that do the same job but do not contain that toxic chemical. poisoning in Calverton was intentional or accidental. Of course, they are more expensive, which can mean retailers are not over-enthusiastic about stocking them, Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Constituents but that price is worth paying if we can prevent animals have come to me when their cats have been the victims from suffering in the way that they currently do. of anti-freeze poisoning, and I have met representatives Thirdly, we should encourage better labelling on bottles, of groups such as International Cat Care. I have also so that members of the public are aware of how toxic met Marc Abraham, the television vet who ran the anti-freeze can be to small mammals. If someone is successful Pup Aid campaign. They all say that this is a draining their radiator, or it springs a leak, and it is problem and that many cats that die of this poisoning filled with an anti-freeze product, they should be informed are not identified as such. about how toxic the product is to animals. I have been I have tabled written questions about this issue. The told by professionals that if a cat were to walk through Government say that the fact that alternatives are on a spillage of neat anti-freeze, get it on its paws, then go the market that would not kill cats and that there is a home and lick its paws clean, that would unfortunately focus on better labelling is enough to stop people from be enough to lead to its death. Fourthly, and just as accidentally poisoning cats. However, as the Minister importantly, we should educate the general public so just said, some people are poisoning cats deliberately that we are all aware of the issue. and those things will not stop them. I do not intend to detain hon. Members much longer. The message is very simple: this is an enormous problem George Eustice: The hon. Lady makes a good point that leads to a great deal of trauma, not only for the and I will come back to it. Ultimately, if anti-freeze animal but for those people who lose their pet in this included a bittering agent and if that deterred animals way. I implore the Minister to encourage his Department from taking anti-freeze in any circumstances, that still to look at the issue seriously. I pay tribute to Blue Cross would not deal with the problem of people deliberately for Pets, Cats Protection and the RSPCA for their setting out to poison cats and other animals. They support on this issue. I am sure that this will not be the would simply find a different weapon of choice. We last occasion on which the Minister hears about the must recognise that and be very clear first and foremost topic but I hope that in the near future we will be able to that when deliberate poisoning takes place, that is a save pet cats, dogs and small mammals from suffering clear breach of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and we this most traumatic of deaths. should prosecute accordingly. Mr Spencer: I am pleased to hear of the £20,000 fine 4.38 pm and the six months’ imprisonment, although I am not sure that they are high enough. There are products on TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, the market to deter cats; some squirt jets of water or Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): I congratulate emit a sound wave that distracts cats. There is no excuse my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) in any way, shape or form for causing an animal harm on raising awareness of the problems that can arise from when there are products that move them on or send the misuse of anti-freeze products, especially at this time them to a different property. of year. As he said, he takes no joy in having to come to this Chamber to raise the issue. I completely understand George Eustice: I could not agree more. The deliberate that the death by poisoning of such a large number of poisoning of cats is indefensible. It is a crime and cats in Calverton has caused immense stress to the should be punished as such. 113WH Anti-freeze Products (Protection of 2 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-freeze Products (Protection of 114WH Animals) Animals) [George Eustice] so there is no excuse for people who use it inappropriately. They should take great care in how they handle it. It is too early to tell whether the poisoning was The classification of ethylene glycol, and hence the intentional in the case in my hon. Friend’s constituency. legally required hazard warning, is determined by its To avoid accidental poisoning, it is vital that people are toxicity to humans, so it would not be appropriate to careful when handling and storing poisonous products, impose a stricter warning. However, the regulations particularly around children and animals. They should allow manufacturers of anti-freeze to add supplementary be especially careful when pouring poisonous liquids, which information on the label as long as it does not contradict can spill easily. As my hon. Friend said, it does not take the legally required phrases and is placed separately much anti-freeze to get on the paws of a cat and become from them. It would be possible for the labels on hazardous. Anyone using products labelled as hazardous anti-freeze to warn about the particular risk to pets, for or poisonous should read the manufacturer’s instructions example, and to make it clear that it would not be right before using them and take note of the warning labels. to use it in garden water features. That might be a step Anti-freeze and windscreen de-icer are a necessary part forward. Many domestic products for use around the of our everyday lives, particularly at this time of year, but home can be harmful to animals and measures to people must take great care when handling and disposing control them must be proportionate and targeted. of them. Poisonous liquids that have spilt on the ground My hon. Friend called for manufacturers to be required may seem innocuous, but animals, whether domestic or to add bittering agents, such as Bitrex, but some people wild, may find them attractive, or at least be curious to who have followed the debate closely have asked whether try them. that would be effective. Cats Protection, which he cited, A third phenomenon that I have been made aware of wrote to the Government earlier this year pointing out and which has the potential to cause poisoning—my that although some people have called for the addition hon. Friend did not touch on this—is that some people of a bittering agent to anti-freeze, research in the United may be using anti-freeze in their garden water features States has cast doubt on whether it would be entirely to stop them freezing up in winter. There are reports of effective and suggested that it would not necessarily that and internet chat forums discussing whether that is deter children from ingesting it. sensible. It could result in animals, whether pets or Cats Protection also said that the same research had wildlife, being inadvertently poisoned. We do not know shown that ingestion of ethylene glycol by dogs and rats for sure whether that is a cause of poisoning, but it tended to be influenced more by a motivational state, could be; that caused me some concern when investigating such as hunger, rather than by its sweetness. Adding a the matter ahead of the debate. bittering agent is not necessarily a solution in itself, but Anyone in doubt about whether a household product it is an interesting suggestion and my hon. Friend is is particularly toxic to animals should consult their vet absolutely right to highlight it. or ask the RSPCA or groups such as Cats Protection. I would encourage manufacturers to consider the Many organisations provide helpful advice on their websites case for adding bittering agents on a voluntary basis. I about animals and anti-freeze, and that is to be applauded. am aware that at least one high-street retailer—Halfords— Their role in raising public awareness is important. already includes Bitrex in all its branded products. In common with most chemical products supplied However, I understand that adding ingredients could for domestic use, anti-freeze is covered by the cause problems related to, for example, the effectiveness Chemicals (Hazard Information and Packaging for Supply) of the product and it may have some impacts on the Regulations 2009—the CHIP regulations. They are being vehicle. The debate is not straightforward, but I would replaced from the beginning of January 2015 by the EU nevertheless encourage manufacturers to consider what classification, labelling and packaging of substances my hon. Friend has said today. and mixtures regulation. The CHIP and CLP regulations Finally, to come back to a point made earlier, we have require suppliers of dangerous chemicals and products to bear in mind that if the case that my hon. Friend containing those chemicals to give information about mentioned involved deliberate poisoning, no amount of the potential hazards to their customers. That is usually bittering agents or caution by people using anti-freeze provided on the packaging. would get away from that fact. If that happened in the Ethylene glycol, which is the chemical causing the Calverton case, it is very important that we have a problem, is the main ingredient of most anti-freeze. rigorous investigation and that the perpetrators are Manufacturers must label the product as a health hazard, brought to justice. which means placing the exclamation mark pictogram, We have had an interesting discussion. I will draw this which is replacing the current black “X” on an orange debate to the attention of my noble Friend Lord de background, on the label. They must also include the Mauley, who is the portfolio holder for these issues, following risk and safety phrases: “Harmful if swallowed” because my hon. Friend has raised some important and “Keep out of the reach of children”. The regulations points and made some very interesting suggestions. are enforced by local authority trading standards and Question put and agreed to. are the responsibility of the Health and Safety Executive, an agency of the Department for Work and Pensions. 4.50 pm The product is clearly labelled “Harmful if swallowed” Sitting adjourned. 3WS Written Statements2 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 4WS Written Statements Broadband connection vouchers Connection vouchers—the Government will provide Tuesday 2 December 2014 up to £40 million to extend the SME connection voucher scheme to March 2016 and to more cities. Vouchers will be available on a first come, first served basis. CABINET OFFICE 700MHz spectrum change of use Cabinet Committees List Further details of the clearance process for high-value spectrum will be set out in 2015 ahead of a further auction of mobile broadband spectrum, subject to the The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster development of delivery options by DCMS and Ofcom. General (Mr ): Today I am publishing an updated Cabinet Committees list. I have placed a copy Northstowe of the new list in the Libraries of both Houses. The Government will take forward development at Northstowe, to support accelerated delivery of up to TREASURY 10,000 homes, and evaluate the feasibility and economic impact of using this model at a wider scale to support National Infrastructure Plan and accelerate housing supply. Barking Riverside The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): The Government will agree a principal heads of The Government’s commitment to infrastructure terms agreement for a loan of £55 million to support is a crucial part of our long-term economic plan. the extension of the Gospel Oak to Barking line High quality infrastructure boosts productivity and to Barking Riverside, to unlock the delivery of up to competitiveness, and can unlock economic potential 11,000 new homes. across the UK. Brent Cross The national infrastructure plan 2014 sets out an ambitious infrastructure vision for the next Parliament The Government support the London borough of and beyond, reinforcing the Government’s commitment Barnet and GLA plans for the regeneration of Brent to investing in infrastructure and improving its quality Cross which could deliver 7,500 homes, subject to a full and performance. It also summarises the substantial business case. progress that has been made during this Parliament, Ebbsfleet including the completion of over 2500 different infrastructure projects or schemes. The Government are making the first £100 million available to fund infrastructure and land remediation at The national infrastructure plan is underpinned by Ebbsfleet, taking forward their commitment to build the infrastructure pipeline, which is a forward-looking, the first new garden city for almost 100 years, which will bottom-up assessment of planned public and private deliver up to 15,000 new homes. Improvements to the infrastructure investment in the UK. The refreshed A2 Bean and Ebbsfleet junctions will be delivered as infrastructure pipeline sets out over £460 billion of part of the Highways Agency programme. The Government planned public and private investment to the end of the will also undertake a review of transport provision for decade and beyond across the key infrastructure sectors. the Ebbsfleet area, including Crossrail, High Speed 1, The new announcements contained in the national Southern and Southeastern rail services. infrastructure plan are as follows: Flood defences Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park redevelopment (Olympicopolis) The Government have published their six-year The Government will invest £141 million to support programme of investment in flood defences, allocating the London legacy development corporation and Mayor the £2.3 billion capital funding provided at the 2013 of London’s plans to build a new higher education and spending round. cultural quarter at the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park. Interconnectors Roads investment strategy The Government will ensure that interconnectors can participate in the 2015 capacity auction, estimating the The Government are committing £15 billion between eligible capacity of each interconnector on a case-by-case 2015-16 and 2020-21 to continue the transformation of basis. the strategic road network, including major projects for the A303, A1, A47 and A27. Swansea tidal lagoon The Government will start closer discussions with Crossrail 2 Tidal Lagoon (Swansea Bay) plc to establish whether a The Government will provide £2 million between tidal lagoon at Swansea Bay is affordable and value for 2014-15 and 2015-16 to support the development of a money for consumers. comprehensive business case produced jointly by the UK Guarantee scheme: Moorside Department for Transport and Transport for London, HM Treasury have reached a co-operation agreement to complete ahead of the next spending review. This will with Toshiba, GDF Suez and NuGen with the aim of be combined with a full options appraisal of all potential issuing a statement of intent to provide a guarantee major transport projects in London, including an extension to assist the financing of a new nuclear power plant of the Bakerloo line to improve connectivity in south-east at Moorside, subject to due diligence and ministerial London, and the devolution of South Eastern rail approval. services to London. 5WS Written Statements2 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 6WS

Ultra-low emission vehicle research and development Dawlish rail services The Government are announcing up to £50 million The Government will support Network Rail in its between 2017-18 and 2019- 20, to support innovation in work to improve the resilience of the railway at Dawlish. manufacturing of ultra-low emission vehicles in the Additionally, it will ask Network Rail to examine wider UK, based on a Government contribution of £25 million issues surrounding connectivity to and within the south-west for which they will seek match-funding from industry. peninsula. Specifically, Network Rail will consider Support for ultra-low emission vehicles alternatives to the current mainline route to the south-west via Dawlish, including an alternative route via the north The roads investment strategy sets aside £15 million side of Dartmoor through Okehampton. This work will between 2015-16 and 2020-21 for a national network of feed into Network Rail’s initial industry plan for control chargepoints for ultra-low emission vehicles on the period 6 (2019-24). strategic road network. The Government are also announcing further detail of three funds totalling Bath city centre congestion relief £85 million to support ultra-low emission taxis, buses The Government welcome the strategy put forward and cities. by Bath and North East Somerset council and the West The Government will provide an additional £10 million of England LEP to improve transport capacity east of between 2017-18 and 2019-20 to increase ultra-low emission Bath and reduce city centre congestion. The Government vehicles in London, in support of the ambition to will consider a business case, which will be developed by introduce an ultra-low emission zone by 2025. Bath and North East Somerset council that assesses the viability of proposals including a park and ride, as well Local highways maintenance grant as a park and rail service, located to the east of Bath. The Government have already announced that local National transport policy highways maintenance funding will be increased, totalling £5.8 billion over the next six years, and can now announce The Government plan to lay the national networks how the formula grant will be broken down by region. national policy statement before Parliament this month for consideration and a formal vote Clean vehicle technology fund Planning The Government will provide up to £4 million to extend the clean vehicle technology fund in 2014-15 The Government will publish proposals for compulsory which funds road vehicle modification by local authorities purchase reforms for consultation at Budget 2015 to in order to reduce air pollution. make processes clearer, faster and fairer, with the aim of bringing forward more brownfield land for development. Chesterton rail station The Government will take forward measures to ensure As announced by the Prime Minister and Deputy that the principle of development need only be established Prime Minister the Government will provide £44 million once. between 2014-15 and 2016-17 to build a new rail station at Chesterton, linked to Cambridge science park. The Government will take steps to speed up section 106 negotiations, to reduce delays to the planning process. Cycle city ambition grants The Government will keep speed of major decisions As announced by the Deputy Prime Minister on under review, with minimum performance thresholds 27 November, the Government will provide £114 million increasing to 50% of major decisions made on time as between 2015-16 and 2017-18 to enable the continuation performance improves. of the cycle city ambition scheme in the eight cities it The Government are also announcing today a number already covers. This will provide capital funding for of additional housing and planning measures: better cycle infrastructure such as segregated lanes and improved junctions. Bicester Access for all The Government will support a new garden town at Bicester to provide up to 13,000 new homes subject to The Government will increase the funding for the value for money. access for all scheme by £60 million between 2015-16 and 2018-19, improving platform access at around Public sector land: housing delivery 20 stations. The Government will set ambitious targets for the Norwich in ninety. release of public sector land between 2015 and 2020. Government are committed to releasing land with capacity The Government support the key recommendations for up to 150,000 homes. of the Great Eastern main line taskforce, including upgraded infrastructure and the latest rolling stock. Affordable housing Bidders for the next Anglia franchise, which will start in The Government will extend affordable housing capital Oct 2016, will be incentivised to submit plans for achieving investment to 2018-19 and 2019-20, to ensure that these recommendations for services to Norwich in 275,000 new affordable homes can be delivered over the 90 minutes and associated benefits along the Great next Parliament. Eastern main line. Shared ownership East West Rail The Government will work with housing associations, The Government will consider the outputs of the lenders and the regulator to identify and lift barriers to Network Rail study into the East West Rail central extending shared ownership, including a consultation section—Bedford to Cambridge—as part of the planning on options for streamlining the process for selling on for control period 6 (2019-24). shared ownership properties. 7WS Written Statements2 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 8WS

Housing associations new entrants by 30 June 2016 and will abolish them by The Government will consult on ways to increase the 30 June 2021, after which all countries will be required borrowing capacity of housing associations in relation to operate only nexus-compliant regimes. The legislative to the valuation of properties transferred from local process to introduce changes to existing IP regimes so authorities. that continuing IP regimes conform to the re-modified nexus approach will also begin in 2015. In line with the Estates regeneration normal tax policy-making process, the Government Budget 14 announced a £150 million fund to kick intend to consult on these changes, once the FHTP has start the regeneration of social housing estates through completed work on the detail of the new rules. repayable loans. Following a bidding round, Grahame The changes that the Government have secured to the Park, Blackwall Reach, Aylesbury Estate and New Union original approach proposed by the OECD will protect Wharf regeneration projects have all now been approved the interests of the UK as an excellent location for for funding, subject to due diligence and contract technology based businesses by retaining a competitive negotiations. Patent Box regime, which will now align benefits more Planning: small applications closely to research and development activity carried out The Government will publish new data on local in the UK. As such, the Government are confident that authorities’ performance in meeting their statutory duty the new regime will continue to incentivise innovation to process smaller planning applications within eight and its commercialisation in the UK. weeks. Planning: small sites The Government will work with industry and local CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT authorities to test whether more can be done to support the approval of small sites in the planning system. Copies of the national infrastructure plan 2014 will be available on the gov.uk website and have been deposited Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council in the Libraries of both Houses. The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): A meeting of the Education, Patent Boxes Youth, Culture and Sport Council was held in Brussels on 25 November. I represented the UK for the cultural and audiovisual section of the Council and Shan Morgan, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David the UK’s deputy permanent representative, represented Gauke): As part of the base erosion and profit shifting the UK for the sport section of the Council. (BEPS) project that this Government helped to initiate Culture and audiovisual and have championed, the OECD has been considering preferential intellectual property regimes which include The Council was invited to adopt Council conclusions the UK’s Patent Box. Work by the OECD has focused relating to European audiovisual policy in the digital on agreeing new rules on the level of substantial activities era. The UK supported the adoption of these Council required for a preferential regime to be considered a tax conclusions. relief that supports real economic activity and not to be The Council then invited Culture Ministers to state considered “harmful”. their positions on the contested wording in the draft The OECD proposed a number of methods to determine conclusions on the EU work plan for culture (2015-18), substantial activity. While the UK and three other which related to equal VAT treatment of e-books and countries supported the “transfer pricing” method, a physical books. significant majority of OECD-G20 members supported I noted that tax issues were the sole responsibility of the alternative modified nexus method. The UK expressed ECOFIN, and successfully pushed back against the concerns about the modified nexus approach but in the contested wording. The final text represented a good interests of reaching agreement on this important issue, outcome for the UK, and was met with broad agreement agreed to work with Germany to try to find a compromise by all delegations. The presidency also reached an agreement position. on actions for culture in the EU’s external relations. On 11 November 2014, the UK and Germany duly Having concluded the work plan, the presidency invited published a joint statement which outlined a compromise Culture Ministers to discuss the contribution of the proposal to be put to the OECD-G2Q members at the cultural and creative sectors to the objectives of the forum on harmful tax practices (FHTP) and to EU Europe 2020 strategy. While the majority supported member states at the code of conduct group. This culture being included in the Europe 2020 strategy, compromise proposal adopts the main features of the many delegations also warned that by doing so culture modified nexus approach, but amends these in order to would be reduced to no more than a statistic. take account of previously expressed UK concerns. The UK agreed that while culture did have a contribution The compromise proposal was presented to the FHTP to make to the goals of the strategy, it was not substantial at its meeting from 17 to 19 November, and to the code enough to merit its inclusion in the strategy itself, which of conduct group on 20 November. The proposal was should remain focused on key contributors to jobs and welcomed and will now form the basis of continuing economic growth. Others argued that by incorporating work by the FHTP to determine how the approach will culture into the strategy, the EU would be able to ensure work in practice. As part of the agreement, countries that culture was mainstreamed throughout all policy with existing IP regimes must agree to close these to areas. Some delegations highlighted that by including 9WS Written Statements2 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 10WS culture in the Europe 2020 strategy, European funding the new programme of study in tandem with the GCSE that culture was not currently eligible for would become subject content, published in April 2014, and to ensure available. that the curriculum and qualifications are fully coherent. Sport The programme of study in science at key stage 4 sets The Council was invited to adopt Council conclusions expectations that match those in the highest performing relating to sport as a driver for innovation and growth. jurisdictions, and the content is closely aligned to GCSE The UK supported the adoption of these Council combined science content. It focuses on the big ideas in conclusions. science such as evolution and inheritance, the atomic structure and energy and forces and includes new content Delegates were invited to discuss sport and physical on developing areas such as the human genome. The activity at school age. Although some member states working scientifically section emphasises the importance had experienced a decline in sport participation and of practical work including experimental skills, analysis others an increase, there was general agreement among and evaluation of data and the understanding and all delegations that participation in sport offered many nature of scientific evidence. It makes clear that working benefits and skills to young people, and that people that scientifically should be embedded within the subject had participated in sport at a young age achieved better content across all three science disciplines. academic results and were more employable than young people who had not. The publication of the key stage 4 science programme of study completes the review of the national curriculum. One of the key challenges identified during the discussion We have achieved our aim of ensuring that the new was how to motivate young people to opt for sport national curriculum provides a rigorous basis for teaching, rather than computer games or other sedentary activities and a benchmark for all schools to improve their in their free time. The UK stated that major sporting performance. It represents a clear step forward for events help to motivate young people to get involved in schools, ensuring that all children have the opportunity sport, as witnessed in the UK after London hosted the to acquire a core of essential knowledge in key subjects. Olympic games in 2012. All member states stressed that The majority of the new national curriculum came into another main challenge Governments faced was ensuring force from September 2014. The new national curriculum that sport on offer was inclusive. Several delegations for English, mathematics and science for years 2 and 6 cited data that showed girls were most likely to drop out will come into force from September 2015; the new of sports clubs early on or not participate in sport at all. curriculum for English and mathematics for key stage 4 Other business will be phased in from September 2015 and that for key The Commission provided a brief update on the state stage 4 science from September 2016, alongside first of play of the transatlantic trade and investment partnership teaching of the new GCSEs for these subjects. negotiations. A copy of the revised national curriculum framework The incoming Latvian presidency gave a summary on document has been placed in the Library of the House. its priorities, which would include cultural heritage, innovative architecture and the results of the mid-term review of the Europe 2020 strategy. TRANSPORT There was a report from the latest meeting of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a presentation on the Council of Europe’s convention against the manipulation EU Transport Council of sports competitions. Finally, the incoming Latvian presidency set out its priorities in the field of sport, which would primarily The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport focus on the role of sport in fostering skills and competences. (Mr Robert Goodwill): I will attend the last Transport Council under the Italian presidency (the presidency) taking place in Brussels on Wednesday 3 December. The first item on the agenda will be a public debate EDUCATION on the draft Council conclusions on transport infrastructure and the Trans European Network. The UK has worked constructively with like-minded member states to help Qualifications and Curriculum Reform the Italian presidency develop these conclusions which seek to align transport with the EU 2020 strategy by recognising the value that investment in building and The Secretary of State for Education (Nicky Morgan): operating transport infrastructure and creating efficient On 30 September 2014, I launched a statutory one-month networks can bring to growth and jobs. The UK will consultation seeking representations on the draft legislative support the adoption of the conclusions as drafted. order—the Education (National Curriculum) (Attainment Secondly, the Council will be asked to agree in principle Targets and Programmes of Study) (England) (No. 3) a proposed Council decision authorising member states Order 2014 and associated regulations—required to to sign the international convention on standards of bring the new national curriculum programme of study training, certification and watch-keeping for fishing for science at key stage 4 into effect. vessel personnel, of the International Maritime I am today publishing the final programme of study Organisation. This is a procedural decision giving member which is set out in the revised national curriculum states permission to accede to the convention. It is framework document. The new programme of study necessary due to union competence over the mutual will be taught in schools alongside the new science recognition of the qualifications of fishing vessel personnel GCSEs from September 2016. It is important to consider by virtue of directive 2005/36/EC (which provides for 11WS Written Statements2 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 12WS mutual recognition across a range of professions). After this will be a progress report on the proposal to Some aspects of the decision as originally proposed amend directive 2012/34 establishing a single European were unacceptable to the UK, for example the use of railway area, as regards the opening of the market for inappropriate legal bases and a general lack of clarity domestic passenger transport services by rail and the over the scope of relevant competence. Through negotiation governance of the railway infrastructure, and the related the UK has secured significant improvements to the proposal to amend Regulation (EC) No 1370/2007 decision and the UK is now content with the text to be concerning the opening of the market for domestic agreed at Transport Council. passenger transport services by rail. The Government The presidency will aim for a general approach on the support the presidency on their progress report, which proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament is a very thorough summary of discussions to date. The and of the Council on the implementation of the Single suggestions for future options form an excellent foundation European Sky. The UK has been working hard with the and mean that an agreement on the market pillar is now Italian presidency and other member states to secure within reach of future presidencies. It is important that our objectives on this regulation. As a result I am the remaining barriers to the single market in rail services pleased to say that we secured redrafting which has are addressed. resolved the vast majority of concerns we had on this There will then be a general approach on the proposal proposal. In terms of Gibraltar, our firm position is to repeal Regulation 1192/69 on common rules for the that it is part of the EU and must remain in the scope of normalisation of the accounts of railway undertakings. EU aviation legislation such as SES. I expect further The UK supports the repeal of this regulation which discussions to take place on this issue during the Council has become outdated and inconsistent with more recent meeting. EU railway legislation. It is a welcome example of Next on the agenda is a proposal for a regulation of legislative simplification and deregulation. the European Parliament and of the Council amending Under any other business, the Commission will provide Regulation (EC) 216/2008 in the field of aerodromes, information on EU satellite navigation programmes. air traffic management and air navigation facilities. The presidency will provide information on the recent This proposal is part of a package with the Single European Aviation Safety Authority event on remotely European Sky (SES II+) regulation and transfers some piloted aircraft systems. The Lithuanian delegation will SES provisions into the European Aviation Safety Authority provide information on the road transport situation in system in order to simplify and clarify the regulation the context of detailed inspections of Lithuanian vehicles framework for the safety of air traffic management. As recently introduced by Russian authorities. Also, the such we were very supportive and had just a few concerns Latvian delegation will provide information on the work which we have been able to resolve. We are therefore programme of their forthcoming presidency of the Council ready to support this proposal. of the European Union.

1MC Ministerial Corrections2 DECEMBER 2014 Ministerial Corrections 2MC Ministerial Corrections HOME DEPARTMENT Asylum: Deportation

Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Tuesday 2 December 2014 Home Department how many people have been removed from the UK under the Dublin Convention in each year since 2010. [197239] [Official Report, 13 May 2014, Vol. 580, c. 450W.] Letter of correction from James Brokenshire: DEFENCE An error has been identified in the written answer given to the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) Reserve Recruitment on 13 May 2014. The following is an extract from Questions to the The answer was given as follows: Secretary of State for Defence on 24 November 2014. James Brokenshire: The information requested is shown in the following table: 25. [906202] Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): However these figures are dressed up, the People removed Ministry of Defence’s own figures show that the Number trained strength of the Army reserve has actually fallen 2010 1,449 over the last 18 months. Given that the Government 2011 1,308 have had to throw more money at the reforms, 2012 970 including added incentives to join up, will the Minister 2013 1,020 answer the one question that the Government have so Note: far ducked: how much extra are these reforms costing, The figures quoted have been derived from management information over and above original estimates? and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. Mr Brazier: Over the past six months, the trained Removals fell in 2011 and 2012 because we stopped strength of the volunteer reserves has increased by 400, transferring asylum applicants to Greece under the Dublin and it is only in the last three months that most of the Regulation in 2010. This was because it was found reforms we have introduced have bitten. The answer to conditions there amounted to a breach of article 3 of my hon. Friend’s question is that we are confident that ECHR. There then followed similar litigation around the figure that we originally offered—1.8, over the conditions in Italy, but we are still able to effect transfers 10-year period—will be adequate for the purpose. We there. are still aiming to reach our targets. Numbers are growing The correct answer should have been: and recruiting is increasing rapidly. James Brokenshire: The information requested is shown [Official Report, 24 November 2014, Vol. 588, c. 624.] in the following table: Letter of correction from Mr Brazier: People removed An error has been identified in the answer I gave to Number my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) during Questions to the Secretary of State 2010 1,351 for Defence. 2011 1,188 2012 902 The correct response should have been: 2013 935 Note: The figures quoted have been derived from management information Mr Brazier: Over the past six months, the trained and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information strength of the volunteer reserves has increased by 400, has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. and it is only in the last three months that most of the Removals fell in 2011 and 2012 because we stopped reforms we have introduced have bitten. The answer to transferring asylum applicants to Greece under the Dublin my hon. Friend’s question is that we are confident that Regulation in 2010. This was because it was found the figure that we originally offered—£1.8 billion,over conditions there amounted to a breach of article 3 of the 10-year period—will be adequate for the purpose. ECHR. There then followed similar litigation around We are still aiming to reach our targets. Numbers are conditions in Italy, but we are still able to effect transfers growing and recruiting is increasing rapidly. there.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 2 December 2014

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 135 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Colombia ...... 135 continued EU Food Imports ...... 146 ISIL ...... 144 EU (Freedom of Movement) ...... 150 Malaysia ...... 148 EU: UK Membership ...... 137 Middle East ...... 145 Falkland Islands...... 143 Palestine...... 141 Hezbollah ...... 148 Topical Questions ...... 150 Incitement to Hatred (Palestinian Media) ...... 140 Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership.... 149 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 2 December 2014

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 3WS TRANSPORT ...... 10WS Cabinet Committees List...... 3WS EU Transport Council ...... 10WS

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 8WS Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council ...... 8WS TREASURY ...... 3WS EDUCATION...... 9WS National Infrastructure Plan...... 3WS Qualifications and Curriculum Reform...... 9WS Patent Boxes ...... 7WS MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Tuesday 2 December 2014

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 1MC HOME DEPARTMENT...... 2MC Reserve Recruitment...... 1MC Asylum: Deportation ...... 2MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 2 December 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 135] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs

Overseas Voters (15 Year Rule) [Col. 159] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Geoffrey Clifton-Brown)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Foreign Affairs Committee (Hong Kong Visit) [Col. 162] Emergency debate under Standing Order No. 24

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill [Col. 207] Second Reading—(Mrs May)—agreed to

Tackling Corruption [Col. 274] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Benefit Sanctioning [Col. 51WH] Assistive Technology Sector [Col. 74WH] Wessex Route Study (Passenger Capacity) [Col. 80WH] Textile Manufacturing [Col. 103WH] Anti-freeze Products (Protection of Animals) [Col. 110WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 3WS]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 1MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]