University of Texas at El Paso ScholarWorks@UTEP

Combined Interviews Institute of Oral History

7-20-1976

Interview no. 312

Pete Leyva

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Recommended Citation Interview with Pete Leyva by Oscar J. Martinez, 1976, "Interview no. 312," Institute of Oral History, University of Texas at El Paso.

This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Institute of Oral History at ScholarWorks@UTEP. It has been accepted for inclusion in Combined Interviews by an authorized administrator of ScholarWorks@UTEP. For more information, please contact [email protected]. UI.IIVERSITYOF TEXAS AT TL PASC INSTITUTEOF ORAL HISTORY

I I,ITERVIEI.IEE : Leyva (1894-1982

I['ITERVIE'^IER: OscarJ. Martinez PROJECT:

Oi\TE0F II'ITERVIEII: July 22, 1976 TERI.ISOF USE: Unrestricted

TAPENO.: 312 TilAitSCRIPTi'i0.: 312 TRAIISCRISER:

DATETRANSCRIBED:

BIOGRAPHICALSYIiOPSIS OF II'ITERVIEI{EE: Born'in Presjdio,Texas jn lB94; spenthis early yelr:-jn Marfaand El publicity man paso;held severit iont, jncludingplaying semi-pro baseball; for southwestarea racetracks.

suli'lAnY0F Ii'lTFRlfIEl'f:

data; education;early job experiences;travel'ling.on fre'ight Biographi:ca1 expeniences trains; experi.n..i AJiingWorlO wur I;-the MexicanRevolution and his experienceswork- as an interpreier-tor panihoViifi; piiying semi-probaseball; ing in gamb]inghouse in Tiiuana;discrjminat'ion'

2 hours; 53 Pages. / ffris is an oral h'istoryinterview with l4r. PeteLeyva of 3Bl60xford St- , El Paso,Texas. Interv'iewingis Oscanlolartfnez-, July 22, 1976:/

M: Mr. Leyva,would you tell mewhen and where you wereborn?

L: Presidio,Texas. That's downin the Big Bendcountry.

M: Whatyear?

L: I've got ft right herehandy. I alwayskeep it handy'causea lot of peo- ple ask me, "Howold are you?" t4: Yourcertificate here says January25, 1894. L: Right. That's whenI wasborn. ltl : Did you growup in Presidio?

L: I wasabout five years old whenwe left there, went to trlarfa,,Texas.Ily

father usedto drive the stagefr"om l4arfa to Presidio--Shafter,rea11y.

Thestage usedto go from Marfato Shafter and Presidio. l4yfather used to pick up the gold bansabout that big, andquicksilver jn bottles of steel that high, at Presidio. Sometimeswhen he didn't haveany passen-

gers he hadto havesomebody to openthe gates for the stage, so he used to take meto openthe gates. Andwe'd havea Rangeron top, two Rangers

in the front , andtwo Rangersjn the back, 'causewe was loaded with gold or quicksilverwhen we didn't haveany passengers.And my father usedto break'in horsesat the samet'ime on the stage,w'ild horsesand mules. It wouldrun fromShafter to a ljttle placethere they call Ruidoso,eat din-

ner therer ahdthen comeinto Marfa. Weused to leavePresidio about 7 o'clock in the morningand get in Marfain time to put the gold on the trucks for the train to pick it up in l"larfa,Texas. It wouldtake at least six hoursfrom Shafter to Marfa.

Wherewas the gold comingfrom? LEYVA 2

L: Shafter; andqui cks'il ver, 1ots of i t.

M: Minesaround that area?

L: hlell, there wasthen. A lot of peopleused to go ther"eand pick up a lit-

tle at the time. Yeah,we'd pick it up night there. Andthey comein

steel bottles aboutthat big. I wastoo small, but I couldtake both hands andpick 'emup. I couldn't p'ickup the gold bars 'causethey weretoo heavy;a little biggerthan a brick, gold bars. Somy father donethat for severalyears andafter that they fixed the highwayfor peop'leto go

backand forth and they took the stage off. Themen that ownedthe stage

wasbig store menin l4arfa, Texas,named f'lurphy and l,.lalker. In other words,

my father workedfor them,for Murphyand l,lalker. He took passengersto

Presidioback to Marfaand sometimes to Ft. Davis,Texas. M: Andyou wouldgo alongfor the ride?

L: Sometimes.If my father hadpeop'le that could get off and openthe gates

for him, I couldn't go, becauseI wentto schoolthen. I hadto go to school. t4: But you still rememberriding on that stagecoach. L: 0h, yesj I knewa lot of banditsand all that stuff downthere. M: Doyou rememberany interest'ingexperiences? Youmentjoned bandits.

L: We11,at that time, betweenTenl'ingua and l4arfa, the only time that i know. 0f course' I didn't see them,but myfather said that there weresome fel- 1as, cowboys,tnjed to hijack the stage; but he hadtwo guardson top of

the stage and two jn front of the stage--cowboys,Vou know,marshals--and two in back. so they wouldn'tdare attack. so myfather" was pretty"lucky. He neverwas hijacked.

M: Hewas never attacked. LEYVA

L: No.

M: lllhatwas the mostinteresting experiencethat you hadgoing with him on

the stagecoach?

L: Let's see. in Terlinguathey claimedthat there wereIndiansr which there

were Indiansthere, see? So every time we went throughthere, I always wantedto seethe Ind'ians,'cause I wasa kid, Youknow. But we neverdid see any. But there weresome there in the hills, in the mountainsthere. So i didn't get to seeany of'em. I alwayswanted to, becauseI wasgo- ing to schooland I wasgoing to give my teachera story on that, and I couldn't'causeI didn't see'em.

M: Yousay you wentto schoolin Presidio?

L: hjell, I wastoo small to go there. I only wentthere oneyear, and then the rest of the time in ft'larfa.

M: Whatstands out in your mindof thoseearly schoolexperiences, elementa-

ry school?

Youmean from the school,or in mycomings and goings? Well, your schoolyears; first in schooland then growingup in your neigh- borhood. I can't rememberour teacher'sname, but (her family) wasvery well known peoplejn lr4arfa,Gillettes. Theywere cattle people,they hada lot of

cattle; Gillettes. Shewas our teacherwhen I first started to go to School--inother words,Ild be absent--thenI'd comeback and tell her aboutme going with myfather, so I wasexcused. Yougot a b'ig break. Yeahl Yousee, that wayI djdn't haveto go to school. Didn' t you I i ke school? LEYVA 4

L: Yeah,because, see, ever since I wasa little boy I alwayswanted to be an

athlete of somek'ind. At that time we only hadbaseball and footbal1,

handba'|1,tennis, andstuff like that. But I alwayswanted to be a boy,

a man,you know;so I took up baseba11.I playeda little footba1lntoo,

evenhere at the school. Meand Chris Foxmade the first touchdowns in the old t'ime'sgame.

I'l: Werethere a lot of MexjcanAmericans in the schoolthat you went to? L: Yes,we was about half andhalf; I'm talk'ingabout l.4arfa now. M: Howd i d you get a'longw'i th Anglos ? L: lr/ell, we managedbecause I waskind of a favorite amongthe kids and some

of the gir'ls, becauseI waskind of a half-athlete, you know,and I used to wearfancy pants up to here. tlell, I wasjust a big boy, thatrs all; I usedto get around.

M: Howdid you get alongwith the teachers?

L: Very nice, becauseI wasalways obedient with myteachers, I wasa'lways willjng to do something.Like say on Christmas,I'd go out andget ho11y, mistletoeor something.I'd climb the tree. I usedto be goodat that, too. Werethe teachersgood to ltlexicanAmericans?

Well, in a way. Just like now,they hadtheir favorites; and I wasone of their favorites .

Whatabout other Mex'icankids? Did they get alongokay? l,'le11,i'd say they did. But at first they werea little backwardabout things, the lnlexjcankids, you know. Theydidn't give themmuch attention, i guess. But for somereason I wasone of the guysthat could get along pretty goodwith everbody,so I got alongpretty goodwith all of them. LEYVA

M: Whatabout high school? jn L: I didn't go to high schoolthere. I just started year here high school.

M: Herein El Paso?

L: Yeah,but I (a.lso)went to (elementary)schoolshere. At that time, AoY .|905 Schoolwas L6pez's School when I went. I started there; that wasin or '06. Thenit changedto Aoy. ThenI changedfrom Aoy to Alamo,then to SanJacinto, andthen to high school. Thehigh schoolwas right there on

Arizona Street fhEn,wh-eiethe (Schoolof Nursing)is now. i PlaYedfoot- balI there, and basebalI .

M: At whatage did you leave Presjdjo?

L: I wasabout six, sevenyears old; betweens'ix andseven.

M: So then you cameto El Paso. l'lhydid your family cometo El Paso?

L: Becauseafter they took the stage away... Myfather wasa manthat could

handlehorses. Heused to rajse horsesof all kinds, andmules. At that time, whenthe Armyhad mules for the ammunition,the ljttle mules,my father usedto raise themand sell themto the government.See, we hada ranch downthere. And then we comehere. So my father got word from a

friend of his to come,because they werehiring goodteamsters to cometo workfor the city at that time. Whenmy father first got with the city, they usedto havethose wagonsthat openedon the bottom; they usedto go to the mountainto get the rock whenthey started pavingthe streets in .|905, El Paso,in '06, somewherein there. Myfather donethat. Whenyou camehere, wheredid you live? 0n the El PasoStreet, SouthEl Paso,"ina little dingy hotel, till we got

stra'ightenedout. LEYVA 6

M: Doyou rememberyour first impressionsof El Paso?

L: We1l,yes, becauseit wassomething new. Then,on the othenhand, they hadfire engines;and every time they hada fine, their fire engines

wouldgo downthe street and makea lot of noise, smoke. And I usedto

run out there andsee what was going on; I liked that. Thenthey had parades,carnivals; anddown in Marfa,we didn,t havethem. In other words,more entertainments, 'cause Marfa is only a small place. M: Howlong did you'l'ive jn that hotel on SouthEl pasoStreet? L: l^ledjdn't stay there but aboutsix or sevenmonths,till we got a housedown on Fourthand Stanton. M: Howlong did you live there?

L: Welived there aboutthree years, becausethere wasa colored school for coloredpeople; Douglas school, all coloredpeople. we lived right next door to them.

Wherewas that located?

Stantonand Fourth.

AndDouglas School was there?

There'san al1ey, then next to the alley wasDouglas something now. Wheredid you go to school?

I started goingto "EscuelaL6pez," which is nowAoy School. Whatdo you rememberabout your experiencesjn that school? [.lehad some good teachens. I waslucky to get along with teachers. I was alwaysdoing someth'ingfor them,and I got along with the teachersall the time. I wasa goodboy in school,even if I say so myself. M: Didyou haveAnglo teachers?

L: All Americans,nice teachers. i can te]1 you the first teacherthat I met LEYVA 7

--was Mrs. Gallaghea; shewas the principal at AoySchoo'|. And

at Alamowe hadMiss Higgings. Shelives right hereon ArizonaStneet. SometjmesI call her, she's stil'l l iving.

T1: Howold is she?

t. L. 0h, I don't knowexactly. But we usedto get a kick out of a teacherthat usedto live at whatwe call old Fort Bliss" Insteadof comjngin a car' in thosedays she useto comein a buggywjth a horse. Shewas teaching fourth gradeand I wasthere, so at aboutI o'clock Ird go out andgive the horsesome water. Sheused to park the buggyright jn front of school there in a vacantlot; there wasa tree. AndI usedto go over andgive himalfalfa andwater. ThenI could havea little fun for an houror two. See, I wasby myself, I could go out, get awayfrom classes. t4: Wereyou a'lwaystrying to get awayfrom classes?

L: No; wel1, in a way,yes. Whenit wasa little hard, I would;like say,

Arjthmetic. 0f course,i liked Geography,but I wasa little slow in Arithmetic.

Whenwas the first timeyou wentto Judrez? In 1907. Thereused to be someboys that cometo schoolfrom Ju6rez at that time. To your school?

No, they used to cometo St. Mary's School, downon 0regonStreet. It

wasa Cathol'icSchool . Big businessmentoday that I knoware still liv'ing; Garciaand several others. tlhat do you rememberabout Ju6.rezfrom thoseearly days?

|,rlell,at that time, I tell you, I wasalways butting into someting. I got acquaintedwith someof the people over there. Andyou see, at that LEYVA 8

time ny father wasnrtmaking much money,because there wasfour of us

kids. So I alwaystried to makea little moneyon the side, so Ird go

over andsell banderillasat the bul'lfights.

M: 0n the other side? t. Yeahl l,l|e'dsell themfor two bits; we usedto get thema d'imea piece,

andwe'd sell themfor 35 E Nowyou can't buy themfor a dollar and a half.

M: Did you makeout pretty good?

L: 0h, yesl I usedto bring mymother 40 9,75 f,, B0 g, sometimes$.|.00. M: Did a lot of Amerjcantourists go downthere then?

L: Well, at that time, yes, there werea lot of Americans.You could walk

acrossthere for 2 0 then. In later years the streetcar usedto drive aroundand come back--open ajr streetcar" M: Didyou havejobs jn El Pasowhen you werea kid? t. I'll te11you howit was. I'd call it a job, 'causeI wasalways trying to makesome money to take home. So tre first time I went to selling newspapersfor TheEl PasoNews, Warner's Drug Store usedto be right in front of the Post 0ffjce, and I usedto sell TheE_l Paso Nsrws. A boy told me, "hlhVdon't you go over there andsell papers?" So I wentover there, and, by gol'ly, I sold five or six papersthe first day; that was 30 cents. I wenthome with'it andgave it to mymom. But after that I got smart,bigger, and I sold TheTjmes 'in the morn'ing,I'd finish at about8 o 'clock or 8:30, andrun to school. Thenafter that werdcome backand sell TheHer_ald, E] Pg:qHer.ald. So when I got big, whenI was selling papers,I got to workingas a stuffer, stuffing the papers. But after that I workedon the press; I wantedto be a pressman,but I didn't LEYVA 9

finish- I could havefinished, but the war comeon and then I hadto go"

M: Howlong wereyou a newsboy?

L: Aboutthree years. BecauseI usedto work for TheEl PasoTimes, I used to knowtheman that usedto ownthe old Fort Bliss; they got a restaurant

there now. Hegave me a job oneday, 'causehe sawme on the street sell-

ing TheEl PasoHerald Post, and he says, "Youcome down and sell The .|0, &g!." I wentdown there and I usedto sell five, 20 papersa day. I got to se1120 papersa day before schoo'ltime. l'1: Whattime did you get up jn the morning? L: About6, sometimesbefore, whenwe hadto stuff the comicson Sunday.

I couldsell onepaper just as regularas you're sitting there at the Zeigler Hotel; an old man. 0h, he wasmeanl Hewouldn't let newspaper

boysgo in there, he usedto run themall out. But he took a liking to meand I usedto sell him the first paperevery morning.

U: what do you nemembermost about those years as a newsboy?Do you recalI any interestingstories?

Yes. At TheT'imes, we usedto stuff the comicsfor Sunday,and then on

saturdays,we usedto stuff papersfor TheHerald. Theyused to give us

10 papersb stuff with the comjcs,so that.wouldbe 50 0. Andthen we usedto get a dollar anda half to stuff the other papers. So that was

$2.00right there; that wasa lot of money. i usedto run homeand g'ive i t to ltlama.

Howlong did you haveto workto get those$2.00? 'cl We1'l, the pressused to start at 5 o ock i n tl"enorni ng " We'dbe through about6 or 6:30; then go out jn the street anotherhour or hour and a half; and then run homeand qo to school. That's whatI hadto do. But the fun- LEYVA l0

niest part of it wasthis: At that time, of course,my people were poor

and I hadold shoeson, andsometimes it'd snowand be cold. So I was comingdown the street one day and I sawtennis shoesfor .55[,. So I made

up my mindon Sundayto sell that manypapers to buy those pair of shoes;and I boughtthem. rCauseI usedto like to play ba11.

M: Youmade enough money to buyyour owntennjs shoes.

L: Yeah,yeahl

M: Did they havekids formJudrez crossing over to sell the newspapersin those days?

L: I don't remember;there weresome from Californja. Weused to havenews- boysthat travelled fromtown to town;1ike, say, California, SanFrancisco, and LosAngeles. So it got so that we usedto haveto fight to sell papers.

So there wasa n'iggerboy camefnom Los Angeles,and he wastough. He came

downhere and he said he wasgoing to whip every newsboyon the paper; so I told him I'd take himon. I knockedhjm down. Fromthen on, everytime

I'd go to Caljfornia, he'd tel'l me, "Comeon, you help mese11 papers." Hewas a big guy there; they hadsome kind of newsboys'union, andhe was

headof the union. I wishedI hadthat card, unioncard; he give it to me,

'causeI wastough, see? He usedto tell themguys, "This guywh'ipped me in El Paso." (Chuckles).

M: Didyou get into a lot of fights?

L: No, just with outsjders. Guyscome from Chicago and different places-- newsboys,tramps. Youknow, they'd comeinto townand sell enoughpapers t.o eat on, and then get going. So they're the onesthat we had to put up

wjth. Weused to help them.

M: Youhelped them out? LEYVA il

'Cause L: 0h, sunel I'd think... "Well, sometimeIrJl go to Californiaor someplace and they''11 help me." Andwhen I wentto Californ'ia,another

fellow that camehere, he wasat the headof the CirculationDepartment. So I wentthere to see him, and then he put meto work. I wasselling pa-

pers there on Fifth andBroadway. I'd sell 20,30 papersa day. Howold wereyou whenyou went to California? Aboutnine yearsold, maybe. Howdid you get to California? 0n freight trains. Youtook the fre'ight trains?

SureI At that age? Soyoung?

Yeah,there wasthree of us: CharlieWhite, myself, and another boy; I

can't rememberhis name. |^|eused to hopon thqdtrains,'cause the trains

useto run by thelhraldPost there. He usedto hopthem freights and go. '10 I wasabout yearso1d, I guess.

M: Didyour parentslet you go?

L: Theywouldn't know: I'd go four, five days; comeback. Maybea week. M: Wheredid theythinkyou were? Didn't your parentsbrorry about you? L: 0h, yesl WhenI comehome the first time, myfather gaveme a beating. After that, I cut'it out. But I hadabout six, sevendollars in mypock- €t, so I gaveit to mymother. I madethat in California. I wasalways savingmy money and giving it to nV mother. Thatmust have been a big adventure,going off to Caljfornia in a freight trai n.

Well, accordingto the NewsboysfUnion, newsboys had to be somekind of LEYVA 12

tramp,to go backand forth. |'Irl:l go to California, stay a week"sell

newspapers,and come back," the old sayingwas, Youknow, a kid woulddo anything.

M: Did you do that during the summerwhen school was out? L: 0h, yesl

M: Youdidn't do that whenschool was in session? 'cause, L: No, see, in the winter we usedto get up early, no matterwhat kind of weatherit was; becausein El pasoit usedto snowthat high sometimesl 'cause But I'd get outn I wasbig enough,and sell paperslgo into hotels

and restaurantsand sell them. Thenewere two goodcustomers I had: 0ld manschwartz of rhe Popular,he'd comedown Mesa and I,d sell hima paper;

and this big jewelry man,too, usedto comedown the street and he used

to buy a paper. So that t^tasl0g right there. so we,d go and eat a waffle-- 150--andthen we'd go aheadand keepthe rest of it. t.Jeused to eat a waf- .|50, fle for andcoffee.

Doyou rememberany interesting adventuresas you went to California on the fre'ight train? Meetany trampsor get into any fightS?

Yesl It's a long story, too. At that time there wasa manthey usedto call the Kingof the Hobos. I don't rememberhis name,but we hearda lot about him. l.leused to go downhere, hop themfreights and see thembums and talk to them;and they told us, "Whenyou get in Lordsburg,.if you look that wayor this way,there'll be hoboscooking in an old can. so if you happen

to get there at night, you can see the fire a litile waysaway. But you got to go get woodand go out andask for this andthat; andyou'11 get enoughfood to put in this canand eat it." That's whatwe usedto do, or else go to housesand ask for a bjte. So oneguV, dh old timer from Cleveland,Ohio, LEYVA l3

says, "I'll tell you boys,when you get into California, meetthe milkman-

Hecome there early,4 or 5 irnthe morning,to leavethe milk in front of

the restaurants. So whenhe goesover there, take a coupleof quarts of milk-" That'Sthe WayWe'd eat, 'CauseWhen the bakeryman come in, we'd steal doughnuts,half a dozenor so. ThatWas our food for the day.

M: Soyou'd get doughnutsand milk, huh?

L: Yeahj This old timer usedto tell us howto do jt.

M: Whendid you start high school? .|912, L: In aroundin there; I really donrt rememben.But'it wason Arizona

Street. I only wentthere oneyear, thatrs all.

M: Just oneyear? To El PasoHigh School?

L: YeahI

M: Thenyou droppedout?

L: Yes, becauseI went to work. I wasbig enoughto go to work.

M: Whatkind of job did you get? After I got throughselling papers,the pressmanfor TheHerald Post, Schroe- der his namewas, he said he'd give mea job, so I stayedw'ith him. Hesaidn

"I wantyou to be a pressman."The press WaS a GosSpress, and I knewall the parts, becauseif anythingwent wrong with'it, Schroederwould say'

"Kid, you'd better look andsee howthe comicscame out." So I'd checkit, see, the ink andeverything. I wasgetting to be pretty goodat it,'cause I like it. But the ink got the best of me.

What happened?

t,lell, I got s'ick. I went to the doctor and he told me, "You're dlleiQic-o

it. " Soyou hadto give it up. LEYVA 14

L: Yeah. Thenmy eyes were bad then.

M: Whatel se did you do then?

L: Let's see, del'iveningpapers. I hada route up on SunsetHefghts,clear

downto Old Fort Bliss. I wasmaking pretty good.

That's whi1eyou werein high school? I wasgoing to schoolthen.

l^lhenyou quit school, what did you do? Goahead and sell the afternoonpapers, the eveningpapers.

Did you haveany other jobs while you werea youngman? No, becauseI wan't old enough.When I was'in the fourth or fifth grade, they wantedsomebody more experienced, who could read andwrite and so forth. I wastoo young.

M: After your job selling newspapers,what else did you do?

L: I'd go home,I guess,and stay in at night, becauseat that time, if you'd go out at night they usedto havea curfew--9 o'clock. So I'd be sure to be homeat 9 o'clock. Youmean, they'd pick you up after 9 o'clock?

Yeahl They'dkeep you overn'ightand send you home. Howold did you haveto be in order to stay out? '|5. I think it was l.Ihydid you quit school?

t,|hy?I'll te11you what: Myfather cou'ldn'tget a job, andmy brothers couldn't get a job, so I hadto do something.So the best I could do that I knowof waseither to sell newspapersor shoeshine. I wasgood at

that, too--shoeshine--with a box that b'igw'ith all the stuff , on Sunday morn i ng. l5 LEYVA

M: t.Jhycouldnrt your father get a job?

L: Becausehe wasnew here and he didnrt knowanybody, so us kids had to work

here and there.

M: Whatother jobs did you havebes'ides selling newspapersand shining shoes?

L: itrs a long story. I wasbig enoughto saveenough money to buy a bicy- cle. A fella by the nameof Newnanused to havea bicycle shop, and I used

to sell papersaround his place. So onetime i told hjm, "I wanta bi-

cycle." He says, "Theonly wayyou can get one is to get enoughmoney to g'iveme the downpayment, get $3.00or $+.00, then you can give me500 or a dollar a week,and you can buyone." Andhe let mehave one. So I got smartand I went to wonkas a messengerboy. And I wasa pretty good

messenger,I knewthe townwell. At that time, the saloonsused to close at 9:30, if you rememben,way back, and that district waswide open all right. Sowe'd get a lot of messengerca'lls to go to the different p'laces.

AndI usedto workas a messengerafter school,so I couldpay fonmy Oicvcie, too, see? I usedto workas a messengerin the afternoon. I'd go there after

schooltil aboutll:00 at n'ight. But after I got bigger, then I got to

workanytime, all night, til 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. All them placeswere open, the district. Weused to take messagesal1 over town,

becausethe only messengersthey hadwas a postal telegraph. Theyonly had two or three.

M: Howlong did you havethat job?

L: I'd say three years. I've got a picture right there as a messengerboy.

M: Mr. Leyva,after you left that job as a messageboy, you went to WorldWar I?

L: Yes.

M: Couldyou tell meabout your experiencesin that war? LEYVA t6

L: Yes. I can showyou the pictures if you've got t'irne,because I happen-

ed to be on the ship that took PresidentHilson acrossto sign the peace;

our ship. In other words,itts a convoy;the placewas right in the

middleof the GeorgeWashington, and we was the numberone ship with him

to go across, and to see that he got to the point wherehe wasgoing to sign the peace. I've got picturesof it.

M: So you were in the Navy?

L: 0h, yeahl

M: Did you volunteer? t. I volunteered. I wasjust big enoughand old enoughto go. I wentover

there andsays, "I wantto go, and I'm goingto warr" 'causeI liked it; I wantedto go someplace.

M: Whered'id you get your training?

L: At , in SanFrancisco. M: Werethere a lot of Mexicanboys who went off to war?

No, there wasn't very many,because when I wasat __-, I didn't see over five,; thenwhen I wentto island to meetour ship, there wasn't very many. 0f course, they hadme coming and going, becauseI used to play ball with the ballclub. I mingleda lot with the officers and ballplayersfrom the big leagueswho joined the Navy,and I got acquaint- ed; so they hadme coming and going. Andwe chosethe first destroyer madeat Island, No. 88--l got goodpictures of it. Andthey took

us on there becausethey'd chooseballplayers to go, so t+ecould play ball anyplacewe wanted to. IfTagrt got p'ictureswhere you can see Presi- dent l^l'ilsonwalking up the stepsto sign the peace;and we werethere. In other words,we took him there. Sailorsandsoldiers guardedhim. We LEYVA 17

got A big kick out of it.

M: It musthave been quite an experlence. 'cause L: Thepeople in France,they werevery nice to us, very nice, we

couldspend a lot of money.

M: Soundslike you hada goodtime jn the Navy.

L: Q[, yeah: I loved it. If I hada chance,I'd go now;yeah.

M: Howlong wereyou in?

L: Closeto three years, til the war wasover. Andthen comingback, we broughtthe soldiers back,convoyed 'em back.

M: Youbrought them back from Europe?

L: Yes.

M: Soyou wereon oneof thesetransport ships? .l5, L: No, a destroyer,fighter. Theyrun just like cars, 20, 30 mph. Now they make50, 60 mph. Wehad some good men on it, becausewe fired the

guns,and we hadsome good gunners. Anda bridgeclosed in on meand cut this finger here. For somereason the bridgeclosed in on me,and I was firing. Wegot wordthat there weresome submarines ahead of us, so they gaveus the djstanceand the point so we could shoot. After you got out of the Navy,you cameback to El Paso? Yes. Whatdid you do then? Workedfor the ci ty . Doingwhat? First, I started driving a truck for the city waterworks. I workedfor the city quite a long time, driving a truck. A fellow by the nameof Serna'

a big hero in the war, himand I lookedfor a iob, andwe got that iob. LEYVA t8

Wewent over together^and cameback together.

M: D'idyou haveany troubJegetting a job?

L: No, becauseI knewthe Mayor. Hewas a big hero in the war. I sawhim on the street one day and he says, ,'pete,what are you doing?', I says, ,'No*

thin'." Hesays, "Comeon, I'll give you a job. I,m the Mayorof the city. " M: Howdid you knowhjnr?

L: Becausewhen we cameback, there wasa lot of doingsabout soldiers from

overseas;I met him. Hewas a fieutenant,he was in the Army. Andhe told meto go to work. At that time he lived up in Kernplace. M: Did a lot of Mexicanswork for the city?

L: Not many,flo. In other words,when we cameback, we got preferencein all the iobs. 0f course,sorne of the boyscou'ldn't work; wounded, s.ick, from the swampsover there. So they couldn't work. But meand the other fellow, we stuck togetherand we got the job.

Whatother jobs did you haveafter you left that one? I went to work for the Sheriff,s Department. Doingwhat?

DeputySherjff.

Howdid you get that job?

BecauseI knowthe Sherjff; he usedto be a motorcyclecop. Hemet meon the street one day and he says,,'pete,are you out of a job?,' I says,

"Yeah." Hesaid, "Well, I'll give you a job.,' So he gaveme a job. I was there aboutfive, six years.

whatjnteresting experiences did you haveas a deputysheriff?

Lots of experiences.Gambling, jn the first place. See, he knewthat I LEYVA 19

knewEl Pasopretty we1l, whenI wasa youngboy and he could tell meto

go to a certain placeand I could find the p'lace. Theywere gambling,

dope fiends andwhat haveyou. So I stayedthere, then I got tired of

it and I quit. I didn't like the job becauseI hadto arrest you if you

weremy friend. So I didn't like the iob. M: Doyou rememberany spec'ific incidents that standout?

L: Yes. At that time, there wasa lot of gamblingin El Pasoin Chinatown, and I knew'it, I knewall of them;and I knewthe manthat usedto run them. So there wasnothing else to do but get a coup'leof deputiesand go downthere and raid the jojnts. Whatyears are we tal king about?

'26, '27, aroundin there. Thatwas during Prohibition. YeahI

Did you raid placesthat so'ldbooze? 0r did they makebooze?

l,.Iell,at that tjme there wasa lot of homebrew made, and of coursewe didn't care abouthome brew. l^leused to leaveall that stuff to the

governmentmen; that wastheir job Soyou d'idn't botherwith that stuff? No. 0h, we couldcatch a lot of it, but wed'idn't wantto. Weused to go

bthe bootleggerand get homebrew; they'd give us two or three quarts of it. Theygive it to us. Yougot stuff from bootleggers? Surel At that time JimmyHill wasthe Chief DeputyMarshall. After I got

throughas a iailer, he gaveme a iob emptyingwhiskey in the sink, from bootlegging,you know. I hadto dumpjt out. I'd take a bottle or two home, LEYVA ?0

goodstuff. 0h, I hadsome awful iobs.

M: Did you maketrips to Judrezfrequently?

L: WhenI wasa little boy, yes; but not now.

M: Wel1,during Prohibition,did you go over there for a goodtime?

L: Oncein a while we usedto go to the bullffghts.

M: Howabout to bars andcasinos, those places?

L: No, WhenI got to be big enough,i went to work in a gamblinghouse over there,'cause I coulddeal. I coulddeal there at the Tivoli; I donethat fon severalyears. Wentto Nevadato work up there. I went to Tiiuana to workthere for this guy herethat I'm workingfor now,Alessio. He's got the racetracks. l,leused to havethe gamblingdown there; I workedthere. I candeal dice, and I can deal anythingin gambling.

M: Whendid you do all this, this gambling? L: I donethat for aboutsix, sevenyears.

M: Howold wereyou?

We]1,when I cameback from Europe. Right after? Yeahl

hlhatinteresting experiencesdo you rememberfrom that?

very goodones. 0f course,it comesup herelately aboutPancho villa in themdays. See, we wasworking at the Tivoli at that time. Andmy father andgrandfather joined the Revolution,Pancho Villa's Revolution. Myfa- ther wasa majorand mygrandfatherwasGeneral Sdnchez during the Revolu- tjon. So I waso1d enoughto travel, andme and my mother went to see my father andmy grandfather in Torre6n. Andwe ran out of moneyto buy gro- ceries. PanchoVilla hadhis ownprivate car, he hadall kindsof money LEYVA 21

all over. So my nnther says, "Godown and tell your father to give us some

moneyto buy somegroceries." So I wentover and I started walking next

to this car to see rnyfather. Andso the guardstopped me, he says. "Where

are you going?" I sajd, "I wantto seemy dad." Andthe guardthat was there knewme and my father; he was in my father's troops. So he told me

to wait, and he called him. ThenI wentin there to ask h'im. First Pancho

said, "Whois that boy?" Panchowas sitting there talking to a'|1those

generalsand newspapermen.So my father said, "He's my son. I want to give him somemoney to go and get somegroceries." Panchosays, "Let the kid take somemoney out of that.'r So I just took a bunchof moneyand I took off.

M: Doyou rememberhow much money you took? t. L. No, becauseI was'in a hurry getting homeso I couldgive it all to mymo- ther.

M: Howdid your father join up with Villa's troops?

L: 0naccountofmy grandfather. See, my father run the stagethrough Presidio, and jt wasright acrossthe river from wheremy mother and my grandfather lived. But myfather lived on this side of the river, andhe hada ranch.

So whenthe Revolutionstarted, mygrandfather had his owntroops in Oii-

naga,and my father, naturally, ioined him.

M: Hasyour father born acrossthe border? No, he wasborn on this side.

M: So he wasan Americancitizen he'lpingPancho Villa over there.

L: That's right. It wason account of my/grandfathet. In other words,my father marriedmy mother fpom the Mexjcanside. Just like here,7frensay]'

"I'll go to Judrezrg€t a girl, comehere and get married." LEYVA 22

M. Werethere a lot of peoplelike your father whohad beenborn over here

that ioined up with PanchoVilla's. troops?

L: 0h, yesi oh, surel I tell you why... I don't knowwhether you read in the

paperon not, not long ago, I wasinterpreter for PanchoVilla. I wasa little boyi

M: Youwere an interpreter?

L: Yeahl See, myfather andmy grandfather,they werepretty close to Pancho, andof course, I usedto comeand see mygrandfather and my father. So there wasan Amenicanfella that hada lot of cattle. His namewas Benton, and he hada lot of cattle. This fella wasin there arguingwith Pancho Villa becausePancho Villa's menwere taking the cattle to eat. So Pancho

and the rest of the guys,Mexicans, couldn't understandwhat this gringo wassaying. Somy daddy says, "l^lell,let's get myboy." Thatwas me;

I waswajting for hjmoutside. Hesaid, "What'sthis gringowant?" Then I askedBenton, "What is it you wantto tell Pancho?rrrr!,lell," he says,"I'm missinga'lot of cattle and i wanthim to payme for that cattle." So I told Pancho,so Panchowas kind of th'inkinga little bit whatto do about

it; and he said, "[,lel1,you te11 that gringowe']lpay hjmlater." That's whathe said. But Bentonstayed there arguing. So he told him, he said,

"Getout or we'll take you out." So Bentonwent out. PanchoVjlla had

this fellow, "TheKiller" they usedto call him; Fierro. Hewas a meanson of a bitch. A big Mexicanlike that. All he knewwas to kill people. M: Did you ever see him shootanybody?

L: No. I'll tel1 you what, talking aboutthat. A lot of peopledon't believe this, but I was there one day whenI heardsome shooting in back. They killed the paymasterof the post office or the bank, 'causehe wouldn'tcut LEYVA 23

I ooEe-

M: Where?0n the other side?

L: In Judrez. Theytook him in the backyardand shot h'im.

M: Andyou wenethere?

L: yeah,but i d'idnrtsee it; I heardthe shots. Theytold meabout it after- wards.

M: This wasPancho Villars peoPle?

L: Yeah,the last time he took Ju6rez.

M: Tell meabout other experiencesthat you hadas an interpreter of Pancho Villa.

L: I knewhis brotherwell. At that time whenthey took Judrez,Pancho Villa's

brothercome over on this sjde andput a lot of moneyjn the bank,and I showedhim where, And he wantedme to bring the money. I said, "No, you get somebodyelse to do jt, rcauseI donrt wantto get shot." Yousee,

somebodyrsliable to kjll you for it. So I washis brother's interpreter. panchoVilla's brotherwas a little guylike that; he didn't knowhow to read or write. 0h, I wentthrough a lot with PanchoVilla.

M: |,Jhatyear was that?

L: 19.|3.

M: Werethere other times whenyou interpreted for PanchoVilla directly?

L: No, not exactly, becausemy father told meto get awayfrom there, he didn't 'Cause wantme to get in trouble. I wasfor both sides, Americansand Mex- icans, See? But this fellow Fierro, I wasafraid of him. He'd k'il1 you

in a minuteiust over nothing. Heused to love to kjll peop'le. Big son of.a b1tchlike that, ugly looking; couldnrtread or wrjte, but he could

ride a horseand shoot. LEYVA z4

M: Did you seeany of the action that took place in l9ll whenthey took over

Judrezthe fjrst t'ime,ltladero and Pancho Villa?

L: Yes. I wasa little boy, too. Whenthey gatheredhere in front of the

Smelter,in that canyonthere, I wasthere whenthe Indiansfrom Sonora jojned Pancho,and the Americansjoined hjm there. In other words, FranciscoMadero made.them join himwhen they first started the war. And I sawthe Indianfrom Sonora; I knowhis namewell--Mansuo. Big Indian, goodlooking guy, meanson of a gun. He hadIndian troops fromSonora; he's the first onewho joined, then GeneralAngeles. 0f course,he was a military man;he hadcollege education, a very smartman. Hewas a chief artillery man,he couldhandle any kind of gun, cannonsor anything.

He's the one that madethe approachattack to Ju6rez,you know,like a

blueprint. He'dsay, "Yourtroops go this wayand this way." Hewas the one, a very smartman. I wasa little boy; I usedto watchh'im over there, 'causemy brother joined at that time.

M: Hejoined them?

L: Yeah. I usedto take hjmlunch from here, take a bunchof bread,sand-

wiches,and stuff like that; i wasiust a kid. E'!/ crossthe river right there at the Smelter,Vou could walk across. Onetime, they began to holIer, "Thetroops are com'ing|"Along the river, a1ongsidethem hiIIs there, there wasa detachmentof soldiers. So GeneralAlejandro

got his troops right awayand followed them in front by the customhouse,

as you comeacross the little hil1s, there; he run themback. 0f course,

I was on the other end, I could hear.

M: I understanda lot of peoplewould cljmb on top of the roof to see the

fi ghti ng.

L: No, they'd go alongs'ideof the rjver and watch the fighti I tell you what: LEYVA 25

--when they had their real batt'le, the peoplewould go as far as the StantonStreet Bridge,along the river there, clear over to the Smelter,

watChingtheh fight.

M: Just stand andwatch them?

L: Yeah,like a damnfooli

M: I understanda lot of peop'legot hurt.

L: Surej Theykilled a little boystanding right close to me. Hegot hit and

started crying, and I knewgoddamn wel'l he got hitl Deaderthan hell, a little boyabout six, sevenyears old, standingthere watch'ingthem. And themgoddamn peop'le wouldn't get out of the way: Finally the soldiers from

Fort Bliss wentdown there and sent all the peopleback downtown. Then they got to shooting,the Americansoldiers.

M: TheAmerican soldiers started shootingover there?

L: Yeahl Theydidn't haveorders ton but they'd shoot. 'CauseI knewJimmy

Gary, he wasthe captain of somekind of brigadefrom Fort Bliss. They

wentout to guardthe rjver and they started shooting;and then they start ed shootingcannons. They even had a b'igcannon right there on the railroad

car, shootingto Judrez. I've got p'icturesof the racetrackand all over

that stuff. l^lhileI was in NewYork I went to go see a fellow, 'causehe told meto go see him, to makea bookabout Pancho Villa's life. You

knowwhat he wantedme to do? To give himall the stuff, and he says, "I'll give you 10%or 20%." AndI says, "Like hell you will. Youain't gonna give menothinl I ain't gonnatake it." I couldn't write thembooks for him. Andafter that, whenPancho Villa mademoney of his own--it was worth, oh, nothing, almost--I hada lot of that becausethe paymasteron my father's s'ide,after they got through,they quit fighting andeverything, LEYVA 26

he gaveme a bunchof it; oh, hell, a boxfull of itj

M: Youstill haveit?

L: I don't think so. Did you ever see it? PanchoVilla's money?

M: I donrt think I've seenit.

L: Youcan buy themat any curio store. I hada lot of that. Milibiqyes

they usedto call ,them.

M: l,lhydid they ca'll themthat?

L: Becausethe moneywasn't wonth much. Yeah,I hada lot of itl So I wentto California on a vacation,and I took a bunchof the stuff. i went downon the beachand I meta fellow and he says, "H.y, Petel," this and

that. "Haveyou got anyofPancho Villa's money?"I said, "Yeah,I got a bunchof it." So I gavehim, oh, helln a bunchof itl Hewent down to

the beachand sold'it to then guysdown there for 25[,a p'iece. Hemade

moneyandil .got nothi ng. (chuckles ) .

M: Hedidn't give you a cut? No. I didn't care, 'causeI hada lot of it. I don't knowwhat the hell

I donewith it, buy I hada bunchof it; I gaveit away. I hadsome awful

experiences. Now,at the racetrack, they all want to knowhow old I am, and they want to knowif I knewso-and-so, horsemen and peop'lelike that. Becausewhen Pancho took Judrez, they destroyedthe racetrackin Ju6rez, one of the mostbeautiful tracks in the world madeout of cement. So the troops from over here shot the hell out of it. Panchotook all them racehorses.I still got a picture of the horsethat they gaveme for bringing somehorses across. I hada racehorse,they gaveme a racehorse. |,'|hydid they give you a racehorse? BecauseI broughtsome horses from Judrezover here. I crossedthem right LEYVA 27

there at the river.

Hhenthey were shooting up the racetrack?

No, after they took the town.

Are you talking aboutthe attack in l919? Yeahl

Right after the attack you went over theneto rescuethe horses? No, I wentover to see myfather. At that time, I usedto sel'l papers to a manthat ownedthe racetrackowhen I wasa little boy. So, I f,ound out that they weregoing to take the town,and I told Mr...

M: l,'lashe an American?

L: YeahI

N: Heowned the racetrack? t. YeahI It's a big syndicate. AndI told him, I said, "They'regoing to

take the townat midnight."

M: Soyou knewthe ownerof the racetrackin Judrez,Jou sold papersto him. L: At that time they didn't havewhat they havetoday, overnights, like we

have here at Ruidoso. So he hadto buy 20 papersto presentthe lineups

for the day, horsesand races. In other words,You get the overnightsand then you study them,then go to the track, Vou buy a programand p'ickout these horsesand play them. So I usedto sell him 20 papers. So the

fellows that usedto sell tickets at the wjndowwere mostly Americans. At that time, Americanscould work over there.

M: Thepeople who sold the tickets wereAmericans?

L: Surei

M: Theywere not Mexicans?

L: Someof them. But they got scared,and they wouldrtgo to work, see, be- LEYVA 28 causethey weregoing to take the townat any time. But whenI waswork-

ing for. this man,he says to me, he says, "Comehere, boy; get up on this ylindow. I wantyou to sell tickets here." (I still got tickets from that

racetrackover there). Andwe weregonna race that day, whenthey star-

ted this EoddamnRevolut'ionl Thestreetcar usedto run over thene, too, the trolley; so all the gringosleft. A fewof us stayedbecause I knew that I wouldn'tget hurt, becauseall I hadto do wasto hide behindthem cementwalls, aRdmy father's troopsand Pancho's troops wouldntt hurt me becausesome of themknew me, that I knew. So I got to sel'ling tickets. So before that, the day before, I told all the horsemen,I says, "They're

gonnaattack." "Aw,you're full of shit." I said, "Al1 rightj Youbet- ten get your horsesand get your ass acrossthe river." Theysaid, "Nah."

"All righti" Aboutl2:30 or I o'clock, the fighting started. "Hey,Pete, take my horsesl" "Youtake them,not mel I'm not gonnaget out there and get shot." So finally a goodfriend of m'inehad three horses. He says,

"Pete, I'll give you a horseif you take my horsesacross." So I got there by the StantonStreet Bridge. Youknow where Peyton Packing Company is on the river there? Theycrossed a lot of boozeand stuff there. I sa'id,

"Now,you get your horsesand lead themoff; I'll wait here." So they took themacross and they gaveme one--I st'ill got the picture of the horse-- and the rest of themjust scattered. So we stayedover there. Finally I had to comeacross; they got to fightin' pretty harrd. Becausethe Americans wereshooting over there with guns, so I hadto get out of the way. Wereyou there whenall theseshells werecoming jn from this side of the border? No, before that; becauseI knewabout it. 29 LEYVA

M: Youknew that'it wascoming. Wasthe fight goingon aroundyou at the race- track then?

L: Wel1,the fighting started in the lowenval'ley in Judreza'longside the ri-

ver, so I hadplenty of time androom on this side to get across.

M: l.lherewas the racetracklocated?

L: Whenyou go acrosson the way to Chihuahua,youmake a turn to cometo 7a- ragoza,it wasright alongin there. l^le'|l,pretty close to whereit is now. Yeahl

So you werethere whenthe fighting started? I left before.

Youleft beforethe fighting got to there. Yeahl

But the fighting wasalready going on in the lowervalley.

t^lell, they weregetting readyto, becausethey give orders, "At a certain time, we're goingto attack." Thatway you don't makemistakes, because if you go ahead,you don't knowwho'in the he1lyou're goingto fight. But

if you do what they call "the hour," they go all together. Panchowas very smart. 0f course, he hadscouts to find out wheremost of the sol- diers were,the federal soldiers. l,Jasyour father with Panchothen? Yesi Hewas attacking right alongwith them. Howabout your brothers? Oneof themwas there. He got shot in the "leg. Did you get a chanceto talk to your father or your brother? Beforeand after. LEYVA 30

M: Bothtimes.

L: Yeah1

M: Whatdid they say about the wholeth'ing?

L: l^lell,my father wouldn'ttalk muchbecause he hadsome ugly things to

say, and he d'idn't say them. I can't remernberthe naneof the brigade, but myfather wasjn that group. Theyhad brigades like the Brigadede Zaragoza,etc. Didyou get a chanceto see PanchoVilla?

Surel I knewhim well, I talked to him. In l919? After they took the town. Whered'id you see him? In Judrezat h'isoffice, at HarryMitchell's home.Thatrswhere I went

downthere to see myfather about somemoney, this, that, andthe other.

M: After the racetrackwas attacked?

L: After all this shootingand everyth'ing was through, Panchohad an office there.

I thoughtthey drove PanchoV'illa awayfrom the townand he nevercame back. The hell they didl Hell ro, he wasthere for a month. Theyorganized here

and attackedTorre5n, and then from there to M6xico. .|9.|9, Whenthey shot up the racetrackin that wasthe last time that Pancho

Villa attackedJudrez. After that he still stayedhere a month? No, no. Hestayed here I'd say abouttwo, three weeks,rtil he got orga- njzedto go to Torredn. Heused trains, automobjles,airplanes and every- thing to sendthe troops to Torre6nto organizeto attack Meiico City. 31 LEYVA

M: But he wasiust aboutthrough then.

L: 0n the border. Hewanted to take the borderso he could get ammunition,

horses,food and eVerything. Hewas smart; damnright he Wassmart. t,lell' he had somegood advisors. Anotherthing that happenedthere during the

time is, you'veheard a lot andread a lot aboutthese guys that they call Sold'iersof Fortune. Therewas three of them,Americans, come down to

talk to Pancho,and I interpreted for him. fOne-rt'asZSam Drebben; he wasa JeW. Hesajd he wasjn that ForeignLegion. Hewas the one, Sam Drebbenwas the first one. Andthen the other one wasan El Pasoboy, born here, andhe joined PanchoVilla becausehe could talk goodEnglish; he was an American,half American,half Mexican.His namewas Albert Harrel.

Hejoined Panchoto be a Soldierof Fortune. So anotherfellow comedown to see Pancho--hewas in the Servicein Fort Bliss, he wasin chargeof

BatteryB at Fort Bliss--to join Panchoand bring his wholebattery to fight

with PanchoVilla. I wasan interpreter for that.

M: Did they join up? Theyclaim that someof themdid, but the rest of themdidn't get across;

but someof themdid. Andhe broughtthe battery across. A lot of people didn't knowthat. Hedone that at midnight,a wholebattery from Fort

Bliss to go acrossthe river, with horses--atthat time they usedhorses-- 'last andtook themacross the river. Hedidn't get there t'ill the part of the fjghting, so he wentas far as Torredn. After that I donlt knowwhat happen- 'cause ed, 'causeI wentwith the troopsthat far, with myfather andmother; pahchofuinished a'long train of aboutl5 cars for the families of all

the officials--you know,captains, generals, and what have you. So meand mymother went downthere to see my father andmy (grandfather). LEYVA 32

M: in oneof thosecars furnishedby PanchoVilla?

L: Yeah,a specia'ltra'in; flags a]'l over the goddamnthing. I rememberthat

whenI wasa kjd, watchingthem flags fly. Andthen we cameback, andaf-

ter that my father got tired and comeback. So the Revolutionwas over, Panchotook over. h|ewent as far as Tonrednwith the troops. But a lot of things happenedin Judrezthat a lot of peopled'idn't know. Now,of course, someof themfellas, you knowthem people in M6xico,in Judrezand different places, they th'ink pretty good,some of them. Theythink aheadof how

they're gonnafigure you out of somemoney. So they ioined Panchoand they told him, "We'regonna furnish a lot of moneyfor your ammunitjon'"and this and that. So I knewthis guy; Panchogave him a lot of money--Ithink

it was$.|00,000--to buy ammunition, and that sonof a bitch took off. And I knewhim. So the last time I sawhim, I wasswimming'in Los Angeles at the beach,and I sawhim at a very bjg hotel. Did you talk to him?

14esaid, "Hi,u that's all. It wasall over, YoUknow. Yeah,he wasa thief. 'cause If Panchohad a got him, he woulda hunghjm, you couldn't steal nothin'from that guy. He hadlots of eyes,you know,Pancho. His broth-

en wasHipdtito, d little fella like that, couldn't reador write. I had to go alongwith himsometimes to the bank. Onetime I started to tell him'

"Look,you're young,I'm young. l^lhydon't you put awaysome of that money' leave it herewith me." I started to tell himthat, but I wasafrajd.

M: Youdidn't do it. 'Cause L: No. I could seeall that moneycoming over hereto the bank.

M: Howmuch was it?

L: 0h, jt musthave been millions, I guess;you know,them Mex'ican gold pieces' LEYVA 33

50's, sackafter sack.

M: hlhickbank?

L: Theyhad a bankof their or+nhere, the Mexicansomething bank. I'll show

you what's there now,it's a JeWishstore. YouknoW where that }lligwam

Theatreis, on SanAntonjo Street? Theycall it somethingelse now.

M: TheState?

L: I don't knowthe nameof it now. Theya11ey'is hereo but right on the corner there was the bank.

M: Nearthe AmericanFurniture Company?

L: No, the AmericanFurni ture i s on th'is si de.

l'|: But in front of it?

L: Youknow where that theatre is right there, as the streetcar comesaround

the cornerthere,'in that old building? Nextto that is a hotel upstairs' andthen that Jewishstore selling sh'irtsand stuff. Thebank was there. Andit wasa Mexicanbank? Pancho'sbank. He hadhis ownmen here with money. blhatwas the nemeof the bank, do you remember?

It hada Mexicanname, but I don't remember.

Theyset up their ov'rnbank, huh? 'Cause Theyhad their ownmoney there. I knewthe guy that run it, Car'los usedto .-_-.*; that was the secretary for Pancho. And Pancho'sbrother comethere w'ith the moneyand we usedto comethere with him; deposjt the money,gold piecesand hundred dollar bills in stacksthat high' wrapped with a shoelaceor string or something. Thatmust have been exciting. 'it's I wasa boy, I didn't know. I sa'id,"What the hell, money'"and that's LEYVA 34

it. But now,it'd a beendifferent. I'd a took oneof themstacks!

(Laughter) I've beenpretty lucky, becausellve handleda lot of moneyand

I've workedand I've beenwith a lot of high class people;lcause after

I got to play'ingball I meta lot of big peop'le. I iust hadenough educa-

tion to get alongw'ith people like that--youknow, rich people"millionaires and whathave you. I don't know,they take to me; I dOnrtknow why, they just take to me. L'ikethis fellow I workwith, Rosa. Youknow him? Heruns all theseracetracks. 0f course,they're the Mafia.

M: He's a memberof the Mafia?

L: Yeahi Theygot three tracks: Judrez,Rujdoso, and Sunland Park. See, I handlethe pub'licity. Wego to Albuquerque,too. See, I'm the public'ity man. Soyou've beenin sportsa long time then?

Right. Whendid you start playingball?

WhenI cameback from overseas. Did you play amateurteams?

hleplayed the CopperLeague, Cjty League,Army League. Whendjd you start workingfor this manthat you're workingfor now?

Aboutfive years ago, four or fjve yearsago. Andyou handlethe publicity for the racetracks? For all of them. Whatdo you do?

In other words,I 90 in andput a card or tickets orrpublicity sheetsfor the racetrackin all the motels. I go as far as Las Cruces,and as far as

Alamogordo.I don't go to Ju6r:ez" Andthen during the race I work; I 35 LEYVA

workin the clubhouse. M: Whatdo you do in the clubhouse?

L: Well, we take care of the reservesections. But I didnrt workthjs week,

tcauseI got a lot of WorkI haveto do over here. tCausewe're almost

through;see, we'll be throughthere in no time. Sowerre getting this placeready. Werll be in Albuquerquefor three weeks,and then backhere.

M: Andyou're goingto go up there too?

L: 0h, yeahl I'm goingto Albuquerque.I like it there. t havea lot of

fun, makea l ittle roney. M: Youmentjoned a little while agothat you also workedin Tijuana.

L: 0h, yeah; beforethis. That's whereI metAlessio, the owner. i worked jn the gamblinghouse at the club downbelow the street, the maindrag.

Theyused to call it the CountryClub or something'likethat. Thenyou go aroundthe hill and go to the racetrack. I workedthere too.

t. L. Howlong wereyou there?

M: Thefirst time I wentthere, I wasthere aboutsix months,got sick and

camehome. Thenthe next time I didn't stay very 1ong. Theyclosed up the place.

I Whendid you first go there? .|9... M: what?I wasout of a iob. AndI hadtrouble with the immigration over there. Theywouldn't let mein 'causeI wasan Americanand I couldn't work. But I hada cousinin that little placeacross from Yuma. I don't rememberthe nameof the place. Joe wasmy cousin, and the Presjdentof Mexicowas a goodfriend of Joe's. So Joe told the Presidentabout me. So he called the immigrationin Tijuanaand told themto leaveme alone, that I coulddo anythingI wantedto downthere. AndI wasan Americancitizen. 36 LEYVA

Andthe man,an Americanfella on the bridge,heused to p1ay ba11 with

us here. So Ird leaveall rrlyAmerican papers with him,and then go to workover there.

M: Whenwas the first time that you did that over there? .|935,r36, L: somethinglike that.

M: In the '30's?

L: lt'lyboy, myfirst boy, he wasborn at aboutthat time. I'm poor on lkeeping dates. '30s? M: It's sometimein the .|930 L: to'35, along'in there. That'swhen they hadthe gamb'lingin Tijuana all over the p1ace.

M: WasTijuana a wideopen place jn thosedays?

L: Wideopen; whores on the street andeverything. B'iggambling and all that

stuff. i'll tell you what, I madea hit with the bossthere becauseI could talk Englishand I couldwork the GoldRoom. The Gold Room is aboutas big

as this roomhere, nothingbut gold piecesto play with, insteadof chips. Themovie stars wouldstay there all n'ight,playing. He usedto fight for that

job becausewe could makesome money. Everyt'imethey'd win $200,$300,

$500,they'd take oneand put'it in your pocket. Hell, at the endof the night you hadtwo, three hundreddollars-- $20gold pieces. Insteadof

chips they'd give you that. l,leused to fight for that iob. Whatmovie stars did you seecoming in there? I'll tell you, there wasa blond-feadeduoman.Yeah, I knewthem well, I don't remembertheir namesnow. Thatwas before the talkies comeon. Beforethe tal ki es, huh?

Yeahl LEYVA 37

M: Thatmust have been in the t20s then.

L: 0h, yeahl Toml'lix was born right there at Fort Bliss, I knewhim well. Andmy fathen andny brother went to work for him, taking care of his

honses.

M: Yourfather took care of TomMix's horses?

L: Yeahl See, my father wasa rancher. So whenwe went to Californid, mVbrother went to workat the movjes,and h'imand TomMix kneweach other. 'Cause

he wasborn rjght hereat the endof the bridge,thereat Old Fort Bliss.

Andhe says, "I'm from El Paso." So they got together,he was'looking

for somebodyto take care of his horses. So my brother says, "Mydad usedto do that for PanchoVilla." So he took him on. t'tyfather workedfor hjm'til he died.

M: Howlong wasthat?

L: Threeyears. He hadsome beautiful horses. Youknow, he usedto ride hors-

es in the movies. Yeah,I knewTom well. Talkedgood Spanjsh; in fact, he talked it better than I do. Hewas rajsed right there. He'd hold a

goodconversation with you. Hewas a'lways saying, "QuihfiFole;hi1" l,lel1, I've beenaround a little bit andmet a lot of people. Didyou like Tijuana?

I didn't like it. 0f course,we usedto drive backand forth to SanDiego. He stayedin SanDiego; we hada car andwe'd go backand forth. But sometimes

on Saturdaynights we'dwork all nfqht andstay there, andSunday leave at 12:00. And the manat the bridge usedto play ba'll with me, so I could go back,andforth anytime, Youmean, if you didn't knowh'im, you couldn't go backand forth? l,lell, I'd a hada hardtime getting there. Becausethe Americanimmigration LEYVA

andthe Mexicanimmigration, they weretough' bothof them'inTijuana'

lot of peoplewould go there, iust like Judrezia lot of cars.

Yeah,but if you werea U.S. citizen you hadno problem. If you're an Americanyou got to get a permitto work. 0h, theyrll let you by sometimes.They don't carer trey want the money. But there was a

lot of moneythere at onetime, a lot of it. But you sayyou didn't like Tiiuana?

No, I didnrt like it very well. 0h, I stayedthere a few daysin an apart-

ment,and goddamnit, there wasa lot of drunksand thieves andwhat have you there, so we movedto SanDiego. |,|eused to go backand forth. Did you like workingthere, though?

Yeah,because we wasgetting goodmoney. |,|e'dget $20a shift, p'luswhat

you'd make;you'd be goodfor $50or $100a day. Howmany days a weekdid you work? We11,I workedFridays, Saturdays,and Sundays--threedays; and then I he'lped

the slot machineman. He'dgive me$.|0 to go eat, andhe give me$20 a day. We,dtake all the moneywe wantedto out-of the machin-eSdown at Rosarifo. You

knowall themslot mach'inesthere on the beach? llJeused to go there and iust take the moneyout. So I madepretty good. I hada lot of goodfriends there.

Oneday I was in Las Vegas,first time. Andyou know,Las Vegasis a great place, bjg, lots of moneyand everything. So beforecrossing the line there

in California, a manfrom Judrez, he wantedto give mea job. i said'

"No, I want to go to Las Vegas'" He says' "l'lell, whenyou comeback' comeon by. Youneed money?" I said, "No, I got enough." So I go to Las Vegas. l,'lho'srunning the place there, TheThunderbjrd, but a fellow

by the nameof GeorgeSatteTow. He's a gangster51ho worked for Hughes' LEYVA 39

runningthis p1ace. Theyhave policemen on the doors, big gunsand

everything. Andthe guy on the door, I knewhim from El Paso. So meand

mywife started walkingin, andhe says, "Waita minute. }l|hoare you?"

J said, "Youknow me." Hesays, "Youcan't go in here." I said, "I want to gamble. DoesGeorge Sattelow run this place?'t "Yes." I foundout he wasrunning it, so he wentdown to talk to Georgein the office.

So he told this guy, he says, "Let Peteand his wife comein." Hemarrjed a Mexjcangirl herein Ju6rez. He's still living over there. So he want-

ed meto gOtO Work. i didn't evensay, "Hello, hoWare you?" or nothing. Hesayso "Come on, you got to go to work." I says, "No, George. I

wantto look aroundand have fun." Hesaid, "All right." So he told tne, he says, "Goto the cashier if you needany moneyand iust sign the tjcket. Getwhat you want." Andhe put meto workon Friday'

Saturday,andSunday, $.|50, and all the moneyI wantedto spend. I knew 'in Georgewell. He belongedto the Purp'leGang Detroit. Theywere gang-

sters. Heused to telI ffi€,"Don't teli anybody."But whatthe helI did they care? But I knewpeople like that; and I don't knowhow, but they'd

take to me. Sameway this Alessio, this guy that runs the racetrackshere, I knewhim before he got rich, before he got the racetrack. He usedto havenewspaper stands in Tijuana,he wasselling papers. Andthen he got the concessionand then he wentup. Nor^the's a b'igmillionaire. Did you ever seeany gangsterfights? No, nol No, I'd stay awayfrom them, because they'd point themout to me.

In other words, they werewatching us. Theygot a lot of eyes; any move you make,they can teli you howmany cigarettes you smoke,what time you

comein, whattime you wentout, whoyou talk to. I knowall that. They LEYVA 40

got eyes.

M: They'vegot you covered.

L: Yeahi I didn't mindbecause I didn't give a damn. I wasn'tdoing nothing

wrong. YeahnI've been'luckythat wayfor somereason. BecauseI usedto

work in Judrezat the gamblinghouse for a long time. So Georgewas the man- ager there at one time, at the gamblinghouse. So whenhe wentover to Las Vegashe took over TheThundenbjrd. You ever beento Las Vegas?

M: YeahI

L: Beautiful p'lace. 0h, yeah, the showsare great. It costsyouso much,but they

give you your drinks. Whowas that girl singerwho used to get drunkand sing? JudyGarland. I knewher well.

M: I guessyou met a lot of farnouspeople that way.

L: 0h, yeahi In Tjjuana,mostly movie star s. Theyknew me by myfirst name.

"Hello, Pete.'t But you knewwho they were. M: Tell mea little bit aboutyour baseballcareer.

L: Wel1,in the Servicewe hada lot of b'igleague ball players. Youknow, they were drafted to go to the Armyand the Navy. So whenI ioined the

Navythey sent meto in SanFrancisco. Andthey'd makecompanies out of so manypeople as they wouldcome in. So I wasin CompanyA. And the

old manthat run it, he wasan old time captainof the Navy. 1S a big placewhere we usedto play ba1:land march and all this, maneuvers and everything. So he usedto sit up there andwatch us during the parades and what haveyou. Andthen on Sundayswe'd play a gamein the morning anda gamein the afternoon. So duringa'll that time all thesebig league ball p'layers,minor league ball p'layers,were drafted , so we'dmake a team out of them. So they sawme tra'ining. At nights or afternoonsafter 4 LEYVA 41

o'c'lockwerd go out there andplay amongourselves, Somy commander used

to watchus, so he recommendedmeto JimmyHicks. He wasa captain in the

Navyand the captain of the ball team. So he spottedme and he transferred

mefrom A Companyto anothercompany of nothingbut big leaguebal'l play- ers. And I wasthe only amateur. That's howcome I got started. I usedto pi tch for them.

M: Youpi tched?

L: Yeah1

M: Youmust have p'icked up somegood experience there.

L: 0h, plentyl A goodcatcher, Hainesworth his namewas, he says' "Goddamnit,

whered'you comefrom?" I said, "Texas." He said, "Goddamn,there are a

lot of Texasboys that comein herethat are goodball players." I saido

"Well, it's hot there andyou ain't got nothingto do but play ba1'l." So he says, "You'reon the team,now." Sowe'd muster in the morning'eat

breakfast,and thengo torcll call. Thenall the ball playerswould get on

the boat andgo to different placesto p'layball: Oakland,Berkeley;, some-

timeswe'd go to Sacramento.We'd go play. Yeah,I knewa lot of the ball p'layers. Here'sa funnything. Now,of course,when we cameback from Francethey hadthe Navy/Armygame at the pologroundsin NewYork.

Theyhad 5 million peoplethere--soldjers, sailors, marinesand everything. I got on the team,they choseme to play on that team,All-Star team. I knewI wasn'tgoing to get to play'causeall thembig leagueball play- ersweregoingtop1ayandIwason1yasma]l1eaguep1ayer.Sothey

choseme for the pitching staff. Therewas nine of us. So they pitched Carl Maysand different guys. Fjnal'ly oneof the boysgot hurt and I had to pinch hit for him. Andthat pologroundwas full clear up to the top' LEYVA 42

just like a bullring. Oneguy was sitting up on top of the roof whenI

wentto bat. Youknow what he said? r'Enchjladasl"How in the hell, out of

a million people,some guy knewme; he knewthat I wasfrom here. "Enchi- ladas" he called me. So I took mycap off andfooled around, and I was 'rNothing. laughing. So Greersays to me, "hlhat'sthe matter?" I said, Thatguy made a remarkand I'm laughing. Wajt ti11I get throughand I'll go aheadand bat." So I sta'lledaround in the dirt andthis andthat and

other. Andeverybody was hollering like hell whenI took off. So I went to bat, andhe struck meout. I couldn't, 'causeI waslaughing.

M: hlhydid he call you "Enchiladas?"

L: 'CauseI wasa Mexican,the only Mexicanout of a jillion people,a player.

Canyou beat that? Oneguy knewme; he must havebeen from here or down on the border. Whenthe namedmy nameas a pinch hitter on the loud

speaker,"Leyva," he musthave thought, "0h, hets a Mexican." So thjs guy musthave been from this part of the country--Texas,you know,or somep'lace--

andhe yel1ed, "Enchiladas."I didn't knowwhat to do. (Chuckles). Washe an Anglo?

I don't know. Hewas up on top of the roof there, amongiillions of peo- ple. I got a k'ickout of that. Andthe boyswere just k'idd'ingme, all of the balI p1ayers. Whatdid they tell you?

Theyjust wantedto knowwhy he calledme"Enchilada." Becausewe eat en- chiladasin mycountry; Span'ish food, see?

Did they haveany Mexicaniokes in those days? No, we didn't usemany at that time; that I can remember,ro. Becausebase-

ball is different andeverything isin English. 0h, oncein a while.. LEYVA 43

Therewas a fellow by the nameof Rose,he wasfrom SanAntone or someplace"

a pitcher.. A nice lookingfellow, goodpitcher, nice lookingguy, beauti-

ful; he wasa goodlooking manby the nameof Rose. Andhe wasthe only

onecould talk Spanish,a fewwords--"C6mo estds?" and stuff like that. Himand I usedto buddyup on a countof we could talk. Andso whenwe cometo NewYork or Franceor anyplace'we'd go together' Therevlas an- oiheifellow that couldtalk Span'ish,from Arizona, and of course,he could

talk it andunderstand jt. Douglas,Arjzona is just acrossthe line, you know,from Sonora. Hewas from there. Theywere the only ones. Sowhen we got oVerto France,once in a while you'd seeone who'd talk 'rEl to you, look at you up and doWnand say, "Whereare you from?rt Paso."

"0h, I'm fromdOWn there in the Va'l'ley,San Antone," or SOmeplacethere. That's the only time we evermet like that.

M: D'idthey treat you good?

L: 0h, yesl I wasa petty officer then; they hadto.

M: Youwere a petty officer?

L: YeahI

M: Haveyou ever experjenceddiscrim'ination because you werea Mexican?

L: No, I've beenpretty lucky for somereason. I'll te11you why' because

I could talk goodEnglish. I can get alongwith anybody.Well' them Dagosin NewYork usedto think I wasa Dago,and I usedto get along with thempretty well, mostof them. So you've neverhad any problems? No, nol Not evenhere or an-vplaceI went. There'son'ly one time they

started to, but they djdn,t knowfor sure. HhenI cameback from the war, they sent for meto pitch up in NewMexico someplace, Alamogordo LTYVA 44

or somep:lace,I don't remember.They told meto leave on a train here

that night to get there at midn'ightand sleep til 9 o 'clock. Andthey

wouldn'Llet mecome out with the rest of the teamuntil gametime, be- 'lot causetheywere bett'ing a of mon€y. Andanother" time out here in

the oil field in 0dessa,they usedto havea lot of oil at that time.

Guesshow much they give meto pitch a ball game?--$l500.But they didn't knowI wascoming, and they hadan amateurteam; I wasalready a pro. i beat the hell out of themkids, beat them15 to nothing" All themguys from

the oil fjelds, "Here,Petel Herel" I bet I made$.l200, $.|400, and ex- penses.

M: Youmade out pretty goodi L: Yeahl So in Alamogordothey called methe sameway; they told meto stay in that night tillthe next morn'ing.I hadto warmup in the alley so they

couldn't seeme ti11 game time.

Whatwas your regulariob in thosedays? WhenI wasplaying ball? Yeah.

I wasworking for the city here.

Drivingthat truck? Andplaying semi-pro ball. Well, let's see. Youdrove a truck for the city, youwere a DeputySheriff. l.lhatelse did you do?

L: Before that I wasa messengenboy.

M: Yeah. But after you werea DeputySheriff, whatdid you do?

L: See, I workedfor the city first, then the Sheriff.

M: After leavingthe Sheriff's job, whatdid you do? LEYVA 45

I wasn'tdo'ing nothing. I (think) I wentto workfor the racetrack. l,{hendid you start workingfor the racetrack?

Whenit first openedup.

Whatwere you doingin the '30s? That's whenI cameback.from the war. Workjn-qin Juf,rezat the gamblinghouse. Howlong did you work there? At different times. Because'see, whenthey changedthe governorsin Chi- huahua,they changedthe concessions;so sometimesI didn't workuntil they foundout that I couldwork, (because)I wasan American.So it varied.

M: Wereyou there whenC6rdenas closed down the gamblingplaces?

L: Yeah,I wasworking there.

M: Djd you lose your iob?

L: We11,they told methat they weregoing to close it up. Quevedocome up

andtold me, he says, "Pete, they're goingto do awaywith gambling'so you''ll be out of a job." At that time, he wasthe Mayorof the city, one

of the Quevedos.Do you knowh'im? M: I don't knowhim, but I've heardof the Quevedos.

L: Jos6. Heused to live acnoss,over hereon this side.

M: He I i ved over here?

L: Yeah,he wasmaried to an Americangir1 .

M: And he was the Mayorover there? YeahI Did he live over here whenhe was the MaYor? }.|ell, he was with this gir1. Youknow how the Mexicansare. LEYVA 46

M: 0h, I seel

L: Yeah;oh, I knowall aboutthat in Judrez.

M: So, do you rememberif a lot of peop'le lost their jobs whenthey closedup all theseplaces?

L: Surel But heneis the way"it was; Whenthey changedthe concessions,they hada manby the nameof Tuchet;he wasa Frenchmanthat had the conces- sion. Andthen somepolitical guy fromChihuahua would take it awayfrom him, so we'dbe out of a job maybea monthor two. Thenitrd be openagain, 'it'd changehands. Thenwhen Pancho got it, it wasa different story.

M: So it just dependedon politics.

L: Yeahi

M: l,{hatdid you do in the '40s?

L: I thjnk I wasplaying profess'ional ball. I wasup in Nebraskaplaying

ball for a little while duringthe season. i usedto go like that, lose a job, andcome back to El Paso. But th'is hasbeen my home al1 ny life.

Andthen in the '50s, whatwere you do'ing? Rememberwhen Raymond Tel]es waselected mayor?

0h, that wasafter. I l.1asworking here when he wasgoing to col1ege. His father usedto havea taxi stand, and he usedto come throughthere to go to school. Sometimesthey usedto drive him up to the school. Yeah,they usedto carry him up the hill whenhe waslate, you know. His father hada taxi cab stand. He usedto comeby there and we usedto sit

there and talk all the time. I wasr^rorking for the city then. Name .|9.|0, anybodyin townsince anybody,I didn't care who. Youknew most of them. Whatwere you doingat that time that he became Mayor? LEYVA +t

L: I wasspending my money when we got our bonusduring the war.

M: hlhatjob did you havethen?

L: Whatthe hell wasI doingthen?

M: Racetrack?

L: No, that wasafter. I don't remember.I think i wasdriv"ing the truck for the city.

M: You'vehad many jobs.

L: 0h, yeahl I've hada lot of jobs. Veteranscould get thesejobs because there wasno work, see? So I wasdriv"ing the truck for this companydown

here that had the pavement,the Texas ; I wasdriving the truck. Theyput us veteransto work cutting tneesdown the valley, o1d trees that

had beenthere for years andyears. Andthen they beganto pavethe road. In other words,the road wasabout that wide, I guess,but they expandedit.

So they put a'll of those veteransto work. So they hadto cut those old

trees in the way to makeroom for the h'ighway. So they maderoom for the

veteransto work. I wasdriving a truck.

M: Whenyou wereworking over there in Judrezin thosegamb'ling places, and over

there in Tijuana, weremost of those placesowned by Americansor werethey ownedby Mexicans?

L: That's a goodquestion. Thefirst onethat I wentto workwith wasa Frenchman,Tuchet was his name. Thenafter that, a Spaniard. Thenafter himwas some poljtician fromChihuahua. That was the last job we had; that is, over there. Whatabout the bars and restaurants? I knewall aboutthem. SeveroGonzdlez, the Big Kid, andall that. Do

you rememberthat time whenyou had to have$2 bills to go to Judrez? LEYVA 4B

M: No, whenwas that? Youhad to have$2 bills to go to Judrez?

L: Yeahnto go to Judrez. Theymade a ru1e, everybodyhad to buy $2 bills to

go over there.

M: l,{hatfor?

L: To spend. Theywouldn't let you take gold or anythinglike that. I don't

knowwhyl I neverdid find out whythey did that.

M: Whendid that happen?

L: About'67 or'68, alongin there.

M: In the'60s. But thosebars andrestaurants along the strips in Judrezand in Tijuana, wouldyou say that mostof themwere owned by Americans?

L: I don't know,because I wasnrta drinker; I wasn'ta guy that wouldgo in a

bar andsit there anddrink. In other words,it didn't faze meto find out nothingabout it 'causeI'm not a bar drinker',I neverwas. Lots of fellas, the first thing whenthey'd get off work, they'd hjt the bars, and I didn't. I alwayskept c1ean,kept in shape.

M: Youmentioned you knewRaymond Telles.

L: 0h, well, as a kid.

M: Haveyou alwaysvoted? 'Cause L: Surei I helpedhim in his first campa'ign.Surei I knewhis father. Andhe wasonly a kid; a goodlittle kid, too. Youknown he's the only Mexicanwho's been elected Mayor in El Paso.

I don't know. I heardone time that whenMagoffin was Mayor, that's'in .|904, '05, that he washalf Mexican. Yeah,that's true. His motherwas Mexican.

BecauseI wentto schoolwith Maryand Jean, the two girls. In fact, I used

to go with Maryin SanJacjnto School. See,have you ever seenthat homeof LEYVA 49

his?

M: The Magoffin home?

L: Yeah,They used to havea'lot of trees, pearsthat big; andwe usedto go

out there andpick a bunchof themand eat them. Nicebig pearslike that. I comepertr nearmarrying that girl. Shewent to college, after that I

lost track. I wasliving right there close to her on SanAntonjo Street.

M: I waswondering what your ideas are on Mexicansnot getting elected to public office here,

L: At that tjme, there wasa clique; Montoyawas one of the leaders. I knew rnostof the Mexicansthat werepoliticians trying to get in, but they never couldget in, becausethey cou'ldnrtget enoughvotes. In other words,we had

morewetbacks here than we hadcitizens, that's why. Becausethey didn't give a damnabout elections; all they wantedwas to work. If we'd a hada

we could'vegot Mexicansin there. Becausethis fellow from Ysletatried to run for Mayor,he couldn't get to first base.

M: Not enoughvotes.

L: No. After he foundout he couldn't get nobodyto work for him or to vote

for him, he quit. Hewas an Indian from Ysleta. Theywas go'ing to run himfor mayor,but he couldn't get to first base,couldn't get no backing or nothing. Doyou think Angloshere in El Pasohavediscriminated against Mex'icans? At one time I heardthat, but I usedto fight myself to get by. Youhad to fight yourself to get by, to get a job?

Yeahi Wasthere discrjminationin El Paso?

Yeahl Our zonewas from SanAntonio to the river, and this wayto Wash'ing- LEYVA 50

ton Park, but not acrossthe tracks, vvhichis nowwhere the trains go under- ground.

M: Wasthat the div'indingI ine? L: Almost,yeahi AndI hada hell of a time onetime, 'causeI wantedto live

on that side. If the rent was$35 they wouldcharge you $75. So I couldn't afford it; i wasn'tmaking enough money.

M: Whenwas that? .|909, L: ll0, 'll, '12, alongin there.

M: Youwanted to live north of the tracks?

L: Yeahi Therewas a few housesthere. up on the hill' whichis nowKern Place,

it usedto be nothingbut Mexjcansup on the hill. La Mesathey usedto call it. But half of themare Mexicansup there now. TonyLama's wife, the boys,all of them. 0f course,they're not cons'ideredMexicans;gon i tal ianos.

M: Didyou ever see peopled'iscriminated against?

L: Well, let's see. Theyused to do it on jobs, like say, the railroads, shops, the depot, the post office. Someother places,too.

Whatdid they do? Theywouldn't hire you.

Did you ever try to get a iob there? No, I wastoo youngat that time. Didyou knowpeople who tried to get a job whodjdn't get hired becausethey wereMexican?

Myfather was. He was turned down? Yeah,but my father wasa goodhorseman, so he a'lwayshad a goodjob. He

knewabout horses, he wasa rancher. LEYVA 5l

M: Mr- Leyva, did you haar the word "chicano" whenyou were young? L: No.

M: Whenwas the first time that you heardthat word? .|915, L: It wasafter we I ived here. I'd say about '20, alongin there. But that's ca16.

M: Barrio language.

L: Yeah!

M: Whatdid it meanto you at that time?

L: hJell,it meansthat I wasnltwel'l educated, I didn't haveenough school. I wasalways wondering what the hell it wasand I nevercouid figure it out. After I got to m'inglingwith Americanboys when I went to SanJacinto and

high schoo'l, I mingledwith Americanboys and some would say, "No, we don't wanthim,'i' that wasme, becauseI could play football, baseball. AndI didn't p'laybasketball because I wasn't fast enoughwith my1egs. But once

in a while someof themboys used to say, "No,we want Pete to play.', But they kind a put you to one side. But I foughtmy way throughn and I madeit.

I usedto fight good. Oneboy called me, "GoddamnMexican son of a bitch.', I got madand I h'it himw'ith something, I don't knowwhat'it was;a stick or something.I knockedhim on the head. That's the only t'ime. But after

that, after I got talking goodEnglish and everything, I could get along good. I don't give a damnwho it is,'lawyersor anybody. In other words, I hadself education,I didn't havecollege. I couldread and write, figure, stuff like that. AndI canargue with any gringo, I don't care whathe says.

First thing I say, "Look,YOU're American, you think I'm l'lexican. I'm not. Myfather wasa full-bloodedIndian, just as goodAmerjcan as you.', And I get themoff myback. That's the wayI'd fight. (I got a goodpicture of LEYVA E2

myfather. Just a big Indian.) I used to fight them off that way, when I

got big enough.

M: You'vehad an j nterest'ingf ife.

L: Eversince I was12 yearsold, I madea ljving for mypeop'le, too-

M: Youfvebeen through a lot.

L: Youbet. I learneda Jot. Andthis world is a big wor1d,too. I'll tell 'cause you anotherincfdent. Now,this is funny,and it's pretty good, I

always tell it. At the time I wasa messengerboy, they hada lot of Chinamensin El Paso. All 0regonStreet wasChinamens. They had restau- rants and chopsueyjoints. Therewas a joint there on SecondStreet, which 'is nowa gasolinestation; a noodlejoint. l,leused to go there andeat at

night whenI wasa messengerboy" Andthen the district waswide open and

they'd sell beerafter 9:30. See,they closedthe saloonsat 9:30, so we'd go backbehind the barsand get beerand sell it to the whores;at a dollar

a bottle, too. l,'|eused to make509 on the bottle.

M: Theypaid a dollar a bottle?

L: Surel Sowhen I jo"inedthe Navy,we'd go to HongKong. So thesemillion-

ajres' sons,two of themon nryship, we hadiust comeout of training and we hadall that pay. f.lego to China,we go on a b'ig drink with these Chinese girls andeveryth'ing; we got in jailI So, themguys kept saying,"Don't

you talk to that Chinaman,"and this andthat. AndI say, "I will." I

told him, the guard, "Hey, take meto the bank. I got a moneyorder here. I wantto cashit andpay you andget out." "0h, no, no, nol" "I'm going to give you somemoney." "All right." He tOokme to the bank'one of the b'iggestbanks in China. Whowas there, that wasPresident of the bank,but

this chinamen,ioint guy. Andhe sayswhen he sawme, "Petel Pete: El Pa- LEYVA 53

sof" I said, "Yeah,Pete, messenger boy." Hesays, "Mess-en-chaboy." 'lThey Hesays, "What'sthe matter,what's the matter?" I said, got mein

jail. I wantto cashthis check." Surel Youdon't cashit. Howmuch do

you want?" Hetalked to the Chinaman,"How many boys?" "Three,$25 a piece." He gave him the noneyright there andsaid, "Let the boysgo out." Andhe give mesome money to havea goodtime. Canyou imagine,out of a trillion peoplein China,one guy would know me? Ain't that funny? So them

guyssays, "Howin the hell do you knowhim?" I said, "l,lell, he's from El Paso,he's got a restaurantthere, and I usedto eat there." Hemade a lot of moneyhene during that time, whenthe district wasopen. Big restaurants, big restaurantshere in El Paso;Chinese, you know,great big ones. Sameway with . Oneof my boyswas goring to marryone of his daughters,

so he sent his daughtersto Chjnaand they wouldn'tlet themcome back no more. Sowhen we went to China,I wentto look'ingfor his girl and I couldn't

find her. 0h, hell, it wastoo bigl Toomany peoplel You'dsee hundreds

of peopleon the sidewalk. Youhad to fight your waythrough in China. So

Carl, he wasa milljonaire's son fromSacramento, said, "Howin the hell

did you get us out?" I said, "Look,I still got mycheck. Theylet meout." rrOhrrl "Howdid you do it?" I said, "Well, I knewthe guyat the bank." Outof a jill'ion Ch'inamen,and he hadto be the banker. Gee,can you ima- gine that? I' ve beenthrough a lot. That's really interesting.hlell, Irm out of tape here. I wantto thankyou very muchfor this interview. It wasvery interesting, and it wasa plea- sure. Thankyou very much,Mr. Leyva.

0kay.