Da´Il E´Ireann

Vol. 678 Wednesday, No. 3 25 March 2009

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

DA´ IL E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Wednesday, 25 March 2009.

Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 651 Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach ………………………………… 659 Requests to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 32 ……………… 668 Order of Business ……………………………… 668 Pre-Budget Statements (resumed) ………………………… 674 Message from Seanad E´ ireann ………………………… 690 Message from Select Committee ………………………… 691 Ceisteanna—Questions (resumed) Minister for Education and Science Priority Questions …………………………… 691 Other Questions …………………………… 701 Adjournment Debate Matters …………………………… 711 Pre-Budget Statements (resumed) ………………………… 712 Private Members’ Business Oireachtas Reform: Motion (resumed) ……………………… 757 Adjournment Debate Tax Code ………………………………… 783 Company Closure ……………………………… 785 RAPID Programmes …………………………… 789 REPS Payments ……………………………… 791 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 795 DA´ IL E´ IREANN

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De´ Ce´adaoin, 25 Ma´rta 2009. Wednesday, 25 March 2009.

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Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m

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Paidir. Prayer.

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Leaders’ Questions. Deputy Enda Kenny: I welcome the fact that the Government has invited the ICTU to talks. I hope this invitation will be accepted and I hope the talks will result in the calling off of next week’s day of action. It is critical at this time in our nation’s development that public services be enabled to continue and that the reputation of our country be kept at a high level. From that perspective, I hope the day of action is called off and meaningful discussions can take place. In that context, the Taoiseach has asked on a number of occasions for constructive suggestions from Opposition parties. Presumably, when the talks take place with the ICTU in the context of social partnership, they will be meaningful discussions and the Taoiseach will impart information, which he is not prepared to give to Oireachtas Members, who are the elected representatives of all the people and all sectors in this country. On 13 March, the Fine Gael Party through its finance spokesperson, Deputy Bruton, wrote to the Minister for Finance looking for information relevant to the budget to be introduced on 7 April. That letter has not even been acknowledged yet, never mind providing the information sought therein.

Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: It is worse than a county council.

Deputy Enda Kenny: On 3 March, the Taoiseach stated in the House:

. . . by the end of the month we will take whatever steps are necessary to ensure the framework we have set for ourselves, that is, a 9.5% general Government deficit for 2009, will be adhered to. It is important for the credibility of the country that we do so. Before the end of the month we will come forward with whatever measures are necessary, either in terms of expenditure savings or tax raising measures...We are committed to restoring the public finances to a sustainable position and action will be taken to ensure the deficit will not worsen from the forecasted figure of 9.5%.

The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food was not clear on television last Sunday whether the shortfall is \4 billion, \4.5 billion or \6 billion. I understand from reports that a gentleman, for whom I have a great deal of respect, Dr. Alan Ahearne, has advised the Fianna Fa´il parliamentary party not to be concerned about the 9.5% requirement. Irish people across every sector have said they are willing to contribute to sort out this mess and they will do so from two perspectives. First, they need to understand that their contributions will go towards sorting out the problem and, second, they need to know it is being done fairly. That cannot be done unless we are absolutely clear about what we are trying to do, about the extent of the 651 Leaders’ 25 March 2009. Questions

[Deputy Enda Kenny.] problem and about the parameters the Government is trying to close. The Taoiseach cannot expect members of the Opposition parties to come forward with meaningful suggestions when he will not impart information to us and he will not give us clarity about the gap he is trying to close. Will the Taoiseach tell the House and the country that the borrowing requirement will be 9.5%, as he stated in the House a few weeks ago? Is that the figure the Government will adhere to in the budget on 7 April? I ask for a “Yes” or “No” answer.

The Taoiseach: I welcome the fact we have a commitment to reduce the Exchequer deficit to 3% by 2013. It is imperative we do this in a way that takes account of the capacity of the economy to bear the burden of the adjustment required at each step of the process over the five-year period. The strategy to eliminate the structural deficit over the medium term has to be credible to financial markets and to our domestic audience. We are in the middle of a budgetary process that requires us to look at various scenarios to see what impact they will have on a fragile economy this year. We have to take account of that. We will seek to be as close as possible to the 9.5% deficit in the context of what is best for the economy but it is important we reach 3% by 2013. That is our commitment and at every stage of the process as we go through a difficult period this year, we must ensure we take whatever action is required over that period to achieve it. The important point is that, in the context of a recession that compares to the worst recession we have seen in many decades, we have to identify the structural deficit, which has to be addressed and eliminated, because in any part of a recessionary cycle there also will be a deficit that is cyclical.

Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: A very intelligent answer.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: It went over the Deputy’s head.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell: Intelligent but unintelligible.

Deputy Enda Kenny: I am concerned about what will happen. It looks as if we are heading for another debacle. The Taoiseach’s words are meaningless because, on the record of the House, he referred to a 9.5% general Government deficit for 2009. He said steps “will be taken to ensure the deficit will not worsen from the forecasted figure of 9.5%”. I asked him whether that is the figure he is adhering to and he said, “as close as possible”.

Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: No.

Deputy Enda Kenny: In the words of the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the shortfall is \4.5 billion, \5 billion or \6 billion? Will the general Government deficit be 9.5%, 10% or 11%? Did the Taoiseach inform the leaders of the European Union of the Government decision announced to the Da´il that the deficit would be 9.5% of GDP? Is it true that Dr. Ahearne told the parliamentary party not to worry about that? That the European Commission has given us five years to deal with our deficit is, on the one hand, a signal that it is possible to sort this out but, on the other, it also signals that we are in the worst position of any country in the eurozone, worse even than Greece which has four years to sort out its case. I respect the Taoiseach’s decision to engage with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the social partnership and I hope it results in the day of action next Monday being called off. The Taoiseach must have meaningful discussions with the partners about health, education, social welfare and the general income stream. 652 Leaders’ 25 March 2009. Questions

We are expected to prepare for a budget on 7 April without any projections or statement from the Minister for Finance as to its implications for the revenue stream or where the Government is seeking cuts and withdrawal of services. The Government may not get 100% support from the Opposition but it could at least narrow the parameters of disagreement if it gave the information to the Opposition parties they requested. The letter we wrote on 13 March to the Minister for Finance has not been even acknowledged. The Taoiseach has moved away from his words of three weeks ago. What has changed in the meantime? Is he now aware of some other set of figures? Is there something else we should be told now, in advance of the budget on 7 April which has made the Taoiseach change his tune?

Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: There is.

Deputy Enda Kenny: Are we not entitled to know the parameters the Taoiseach is trying to close? Will the Taoiseach confirm that he has moved away from the 9.5% figure he gave the Da´il with such certainty three weeks ago? Are we to head into this budget on 7 April as ill- prepared as we were for the one in October? What will happen if the tax figures that the Taoiseach projects are worse in three months’ time than the projections? Will he come back in here with another budget or will he go to the country?

The Taoiseach: We are seeking to achieve a return to the stability and growth pact guidelines of a 3% deficit by 2013. I have to take into account how to bring about a reduction in the structural deficit over that period that brings order back to the public finances in a way that does not undermine the ability of the economy to function. If Deputy Kenny believes that, regardless of the consideration we must give to all those factors, we should fixate on a particular percentage as the determining factor——

Deputy Enda Kenny: The Taoiseach gave the figure on 3 March.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell: It is the Taoiseach’s fixation not ours.

The Taoiseach: Yes but the Deputy should let me come to the point. I outlined our position as a result of the last budgetary forecast in the House. The public finances deteriorated in January and February. It has been difficult for every country because this recession has seen a fall off in tax revenues across the emerging Asian economies, the former Asian tiger economies——

Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: The Taoiseach can keep on at that.

The Taoiseach: That is a fact around the world.

Deputy Seymour Crawford: The Taoiseach is innocent.

The Taoiseach: That is one of the issues that one must take into account. Small, open economies are finding the impact more difficult to handle than other economies. That is also a fact. Economic recovery can be brought about only by a multi-annual approach that indicates the pathway to recovery we can achieve, and that will involve putting the public finances back into order. We must ensure that by 2013 we return to that 3% deficit. The scale and magnitude of the task is great. It affects every citizen. Government is entitled to take into account all those considerations not because we do not wish to reach the target but because we want to do so in such a way that from year to year the burden of adjustment 653 Leaders’ 25 March 2009. Questions

[The Taoiseach.] at each step is such that everybody can bear it. The Opposition wants to be dogmatic and decide to take out X billions regardless of the impact. I know what I said on that occasion.

Deputy Enda Kenny: I, too, know what the Taoiseach said.

The Taoiseach: That was my position. We have to sit down and organise a budget, get to the meat of the issue and decide how to return to 3% over five years in a way that is proper and right, taking into account all considerations including economic impact.

Deputy Enda Kenny: Is what the Taoiseach said meaningless?

The Taoiseach: It is not meaningless. There is nothing meaningless about what I had to say; we are committed to restoring order in the public finances.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: He did not mean it.

Deputy James Reilly: It means nothing now.

The Taoiseach: We will emerge with an outcome that seeks to find a balance between the need for cuts in expenditure, the need to raise taxes and the need to revise capital programmes, all of which will happen, for several years hence in a way that protects to the greatest extent possible those whom people would like us to protect. That is not an easy task and, if necessary, based on a detailed consideration of the matter, it might involve more than the 9.5% this year. The important point for the financial markets will be the Government’s determination to eliminate the structural deficit over the period concerned.

Deputy Enda Kenny: Why not say that?

Deputy Olivia Mitchell: How will we know?

The Taoiseach: I was answering a question on the day the Exchequer returns came out, based on the information available to me then, which was an honest assessment of the situation. I remain committed to bringing order to the public finances. If the Deputy wants me to do it in a way that seeks to destroy the economy, that is his view.

Deputy Seymour Crawford: The Taoiseach has already destroyed it.

Deputy Paul Connaughton: That is lucky bag politics.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Taoiseach has already destroyed it.

Deputy Michael Ring: The Taoiseach did that already as the Minister for Finance.

The Taoiseach: If Deputy Kenny were in my position, he also would have to give due consideration to all of that as full and detailed analysis and projections for the remainder of the year become available. That is what we must do.

Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: The Taoiseach knows all about that.

The Taoiseach: The Deputy can proceed with the semantics of that argument. I am saying that the Government is determined to deal with this matter in a way that seeks to find a balance that will not be easily achieved.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe: How much has the Taoiseach achieved? 654 Leaders’ 25 March 2009. Questions

Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Tell the truth.

Deputy Charles Flanagan: Mind the gap.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: For some time the Labour Party has argued that the restoration of our economic fortunes and the settling of our public finances needs to be done over a period of years, not just in one year. The Labour Party agrees with the objective of getting back to the 3% figure by 2013. Now we must address how we will achieve that. I welcome the Taoiseach’s decision yesterday to invite the Irish Congress of Trade Unions back into discussions. I called for this at the weekend and I am glad the Taoiseach responded to that call. I hope those talks will take place soon and that they will avert the prospect of a national strike next Monday or industrial strife or strikes in the future. The starting point of those discussions will be where the Taoiseach left off in January when he agreed a framework with the ICTU which provided for a \2 billion adjustment in the public finances. That was subsequently taken up by the pension levy and the other measures announced in January about which working people are angry. The first item on the agenda will be to determine the target now. Since the Taoiseach agreed the framework of \2 billion with the ICTU the February Exchequer figures have come in and the Taoiseach has decided to have a second budget. When I asked the Taoiseach two weeks ago what the target would be, he said \4.5 billion. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Smith, intimated on television on Sunday night that it could be as high as \6 billion, and subsequently retracted that. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Michea´l Martin, stated on “Questions and Answers” on Monday night that nobody should be at all fixated on a target. There have to be some goalposts. The Taoiseach must tell the House what is now the Government’s target for 2009 and, in so far as he can, perhaps he might indicate what this means for 2010 and beyond. We must have some clear idea about the target. I saw, as did Deputy Kenny, what Dr. Ahern told the Fianna Fa´il Parliamentary Party last evening. It is very similar to what he told a Labour Party meeting two or three weeks ago, to which the Government now appears to be subscribing, namely, that the 9.5% borrowing limit is no longer set in stone. The Taoiseach must tell us what is his take on that now. The third thing he must tell us is what is the trend in the March figures. He seemed to have been caught by surprise in February in respect of the Exchequer returns of that month. He told the House that the first he knew about them was when he heard about them at a Cabinet meeting. That information subsequently caused the Government to bring in a second budget. Presumably, the Taoiseach and his Minister for Finance have been monitoring what has been taking place in March. Can he tell us if the position will be worse by the time we get to budget day because of what is happening with the March returns? By now, well into the third week of the month, the Taoiseach must have some take on these. The two questions I want the Taoiseach to answer are, first, what the target is for the 2009 budget and, second, what the trend is in the March figures and if that will make the February position worse.

Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Phone a friend.

The Taoiseach: The Cabinet is in discussions at present on budgetary issues. We are looking at all the different case scenarios and taking all the advice one would expect us to take. I am not aware of any Taoiseach who came into the House during budgetary discussions to give a progress report, week on week, on how those discussions were going——

Deputy Michael Ring: We used to have only one budget. 655 Leaders’ 25 March 2009. Questions

The Taoiseach: ——except to say that we are committed to bringing forward a multi-annual approach that will seek to reduce our deficit to 3% by 2013. That is our objective and in the meantime we are working out the best way by which that adjustment can be made on a yearly basis, taking account of all the situational requirements. I am not in a position, nor would Deputy Gilmore be if he were in my boots, to come into the House on a daily or weekly basis to give progress reports on budgetary discussions. These continue, with the overall objective I outlined. I indicated to the House this morning what our position is in general terms. I am not in a position to go into further detail on that and anybody who ever had anything to do with budgetary discussions would know why. That is the situation. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, will come on the appointed day, 7 April, with, as a result of those deliberations, a full multi-annual approach which will set out in clear detail a pathway to return order to the public finances as I outlined in general terms today. I am not in a position to give further detail at this point because it would not reflect the considered and final decisions to be taken by Cabinet. With regard to the social partnership issue, obviously we are trying to build on the framework agreed at the end of January and to see if it is possible to proceed with an agreement on a range of issues. As Members will know, since then we have had a National Economic and Social Council, NESC, report which has deepened the shared analysis about the nature of the problem, the inter-related aspects that are causing it and how we might resolve it. I would proceed to discuss those matters with social partners on that basis, to see if agreement is possible. Having an agreement would be beneficial to the national effort, for everybody collectively to get behind what must be done. I have seen statements regarding Deputy Gilmore’s position. We will finalise our arrangements, come to the House and explain the choices we have made and what is behind the strategy we will outline. We will indicate why it must be set out as it will be, because of the scale and magnitude of the problem we face. Unfortunately, nobody in this country can be immune from the impact of what must be done.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I thank the Taoiseach for explaining to me and to the House what is the normal procedure by which Government formulates a budget. However, we are not in normal circumstances. This is an emergency budget.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Correct.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: This is the Taoiseach’s fourth attempt since last summer to try to get the public finances right.

The Taoiseach: All of which the Deputy and his party opposed.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: The Taoiseach asked——

Deputy James Reilly: None of them worked.

Deputy Joan Burton: The Taoiseach got it wrong. He did not take our advice

(Interruptions).

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I ask the Taoiseach to hold on for a second. If he wishes to engage in partisan politics——

The Taoiseach: The Deputy opposed every proposal. 656 Leaders’ 25 March 2009. Questions

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I came into the House this morning and I agreed, as leader of my party, to the target announced by the Taoiseach, namely, that we get back to 3% by 2013. I did that in the interests of the country because it is important to communicate to the outside world that there is political agreement in the country and in this House about the overall economic and public finance objectives we must have.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: Hear, hear.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: On behalf of my party, I tell the Taoiseach that we will be positive and co-operative in approaching the budgetary process. We ask him for information but he will not tell us what is the target. He will not tell us what will be the macro-economic projections. He will not tell us the information with regard to the capital programme.

Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: He does not know it.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: He will not provide us with the options papers. He will not tell us what the trend is with regard to the March figures, but he will come into the House to say that he will consider everything and then will return and tell us about it on 7 April. That is not engaging in bipartisan politics and it does not respond appropriately to what there is, namely, an offer from the Opposition side of this House to engage constructively with Government on this issue.

Deputies: Hear, hear.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: What the Taoiseach is engaged in now is a political smokescreen, namely, he has put out the idea and can claim that the Opposition was asked for its ideas. He can ask where were the ideas, but he will end up making all the decisions.

Deputy Sea´n Power: We are in Government.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: If the Taoiseach wants co-operation from the Opposition parties, he must behave a bit more constructively than he is doing at the moment.

Deputies: Hear, hear.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: If he wishes his discussions with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, to be meaningful and if he wishes to avoid having strikes, strife and public unrest in this country, he must level with the unions about the figures because in January he agreed a figure of \2 billion with them. That figure is now gone, with the levy and the other measures. On day one, when the Taoiseach goes to talk to the unions, he must tell them this because that is the first question they will ask. They will ask what the current figure is, what the Government is trying to achieve and what are the implications for taxation, jobs and pay — all the issues about which they are concerned. If he intends to tell this to ICTU in discussions in Government Buildings, then he should tell this House what is the target.

Deputies: Hear, hear.

Deputy David Stanton: He probably does not know.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: This is neither the Taoiseach’s money nor the Government’s money. The Government is not running a private business on that side of the House but rather it is running our business, the public’s business. This is about taxpayers’ money and it is about time that the Taoiseach came into this House, levelled with us and with the people of this country about the scale of our problem and let us all get down to dealing with it collectively. 657 Leaders’ 25 March 2009. Questions

Deputies: Hear, hear.

Deputy Charles Flanagan: Some of those behind the Taoiseach want a unity Government.

The Taoiseach: I wish to answer some of the Deputy’s rhetorical flourishes. First, I am as aware as he is that this is the public’s money and it is precisely because that is the case that I am leading a Government which is prepared to take the necessary decisions rather than suggest there is some painless alternative available, based on what the Deputy had to say.

Deputy James Reilly: Nobody said that.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach: That is the first point. The second point is——

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach: I listened to the rhetorical flourishes. My second point is that there has been more information available to the parties and to their spokespersons than would be available even at election time.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: That is not true.

The Taoiseach: That is true. That is the situation. If people wish to have discussions, or if spokespersons wish to meet the Minister for Finance who is charged with bringing forward the budget, that facility is available. At the end of the day we all know the responsibility for bringing forward the budget lies with the Government. The House will have a pre-budget debate today and Members can put forward constructive proposals if they wish and we will listen attentively to them.

Deputy Joan Burton: The Minister for Finance did not show up yesterday.

The Taoiseach: However, the idea that my job is to enable others to write the budget is not the position. What we want to see is people putting out what they believe is the way forward. They should put their proposals on the table, just as we will on 7 April. They can either do so beforehand or afterwards. That is the position and any suggestion to the contrary 11 o’clock that we are trying to engage in any other arrangement is not true. The Govern- ment is trying to deal with a situation which is very significant for the country, which must and will be dealt with. It is our intention to be as fair as possible, recognising that those who take the burden are those who are best able to bear it. However, in saying that, we recognise that nobody will be immune from the burden of adjustment that has to be taken. Everyone will have to share the burden according to his or her ability to carry it. Given that the economy will contract by at least 6.5% this year, in addition to other measures which we have to take in order to achieve budgetary balance to begin the process and which will have a further and adverse impact, we must take all those considerations into account and make careful decisions and this is what the Government intends to do in respect of the targets being outlined. As regards the social partners, we will outline to them, as we have outlined within the framework, how we can work to help people who need reskilling and those who lose their jobs. A range of areas is outlined in that framework, which we can discuss. However, at the end of the day, the responsibility for bringing forward the budget lies with the Government of the day and that has always been the position. Were Deputy Gilmore in my position, it would be the same for him and I would stand up in the House and give my views as to where I think it 658 Ceisteanna — 25 March 2009. Questions. should go. Deputy Gilmore said that in some way we are reticent in our duties and he claimed it was our fourth attempt to address the situation. We are making whatever decisions are necessary in the context of a deteriorating situation which is not particular to this country but is hitting every country in the developed world in a way which is unprecedented in our time. Therefore, the suggestion that there is any Minister for Finance or any government that brought forward a budget last September or October who has not had to review and revise the situation is foolish; what country is in a position to do that, given the magnitude of the crisis that is facing us and enveloping the world at the moment? The answer is none. The strongest economies in the world are facing bigger challenges than they did since the Second World War which was nearly 70 years ago. That is the situation. The Deputy can make his rhetorical flourishes and make his little debating points if he wishes but the fact remains and I am entitled to state it as fact that every economy the Government has introduced to bring the public finances under control, to ensure our expenditure came in on line, has been opposed by Deputy Gilmore and his party on every occasion. The people are entitled to know that fact as well.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe: The Taoiseach is making it up as he goes along.

Ceisteanna — Questions.

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European Council Meetings. 1. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he has received an agenda for the special meeting of the European Council; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8420/09]

2. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach about his participation in the special meeting of EU leaders to discuss the economic situation, held on 1 March 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9522/09]

3. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach if he has received a final agenda for the March 2009 meeting of EU Heads of State; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9619/09]

4. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his attendance at the special European summit on 1 March 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9660/09]

5. Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the Taoiseach the planned European Council meetings for the remainder of 2009 in which he will participate; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9853/09]

6. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his attendance at the spring 2009 meeting of the European Council in Brussels; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10600/09]

7. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach the bilateral meetings he undertook on the margins of the recent European Council meeting; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10601/09]

The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 7, inclusive, together. I attended an informal meeting of EU Heads of State and Government in Brussels on Sunday, 1 March. The meeting was called by the Czech Presidency in response to the international financial and economic crisis. The meeting was useful on a number of fronts. While 659 Ceisteanna — 25 March 2009. Questions.

[The Taoiseach.] there were no formal conclusions, there was broad agreement that Europe can only face the current macro-economic and financial challenges, and overcome them by continuing to act together in a co-ordinated manner, within the framework of the Single Market and EMU. There was a shared confidence in the medium and long-term outlook for all EU economies. We agreed on the need to take action in a number of areas, notably in promoting financial stability and supporting the real economy. We also discussed the role Europe has to play in terms of the global approach to this crisis. I attended the European Council in Brussels on 19 and 20 March. I was accompanied by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Michea´l Martin and the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Dick Roche. As I will make a statement to the House on the Council meeting next week, I will at this stage merely give a summary account of its proceedings. Discussions at the Council built on the work of the 1 March meeting, focusing on the need to respond to the global financial and economic crisis and to restore the proper functioning of financial markets. As part of the overall effort to stimulate economic recovery, the Council agreed on an infrastructure financing package of some \5 billion. This is in addition to those measures by the member states to stimulate their economies and other expenditure. Agreement on the financial support of key infrastructure projects is very important for Ireland. We have secured funding of \110 million for the east-west interconnector between Ireland and Britain. There is potential to secure funding for the North Sea grid component of the offshore wind energy initiative. We will also be able to access new funds which have been agreed for rural development and rural broadband. The Council agreed in principle to increase the resources available to the IMF so that it is better placed to help countries as appropriate. We also agreed to address the capacity of the Union to assist its non-euro members through considerably strengthening what is known as the balance of payments support. The Council agreed the approach to be pursued by the Union at the G20 discussions in London on 2 April. We discussed climate change and the focus now is on the UN summit in Copenhagen later this year. The Council adopted a declaration launching the Eastern Partnership to promote stability, good governance and economic development in those countries to the east of the Union’s borders. On the Lisbon treaty, I reported to the Council that we are continuing to work on the legal guarantees promised in December, with a view to them being agreed by mid-2009. There was no discussion as we will return to this issue at the June European Council. I had a bilateral meeting with the President of the European Commission, Mr. Jose´ Manuel Barroso on 19 March, before the Council meeting. Our discussion covered the current economic situation with particular regard to jobs and growth. We also discussed the Lisbon treaty. As is normal, I had discussions with various colleagues in the margins of the meeting over the course of the two days. In addition to the Spring European Council, there will be European Council meetings on 18 and 19 June, 29 and 30 October and 10 and 11 December. Prime Minister Topalanek has announced that an EU-US summit will be held on 5 April in Prague where EU leaders will meet with US President Barack Obama. The Czech Presidency has also indicated that it intends to hold an Eastern Partnership summit on 7 May in Prague. It is my intention to participate in all of the European Councils in 2009. 660 Ceisteanna — 25 March 2009. Questions.

Deputy Enda Kenny: The Taoiseach is not responsible for the collapse of the Czech Govern- ment but it will cause a serious problem. It seems there may well be a council of experts formed here. What is the Taoiseach’s reaction to the fact that President Klaus may well be the person to speak on international issues for the people of the Czech Republic, given his Eurosceptic views? I acknowledge the Taoiseach can have no direct impact on this situation. In view of the uncertainty caused by the collapse of the Czech Government, does the Taoiseach intend to indicate the proposed timing of the second referendum on the Lisbon treaty? I do not expect him to give an exact date but in my view it is important to remove the uncertainty.

The Taoiseach: I am informed that Prime Minister Topalanek’s government narrowly lost the vote of confidence in the Czech Parliament yesterday and while this is highly undesirable from the point of view of the Union because the Czech Republic holds the rotating Presidency and we need to have stability in these times, it is not unprecedented. It is for the Czech Republic’s democratic process to resolve the domestic political issues and I will not speculate on such details. I am confident this will be carried out in a way that minimises disruption to EU business at this very important juncture. The question of the date for the holding of the referendum in Ireland will be based on the outcome of a European Council meeting that will consider the legal texts to give effect to the political guarantees we have obtained.

Deputy Enda Kenny: Will the Taoiseach inform the House of the progress of the work on finalising the declarations? I understand that the greater part of the work is completed and will be considered at the European summit in June at which they may or may not be authorised. When the Taoiseach spoke to the other Heads of Government at the European Council meeting, was a briefing given on the true and up-to-date position on those declarations being prepared by the Czech Government? Assuming they are in the process of being finalised and will be accepted in June, does the Taoiseach expect the second referendum on the Lisbon treaty to be held in the autumn. In that regard, has the Government finalised its strategy for dealing with those matters of concern for people such as tax and ethical issues, sovereignty, the method for transposing directives into Irish law and the impact on different sectors? Has a strategy been agreed for dealing with those matters sequentially so that we do not have the confusion, allegations or indeed lies that accompanied those issues on the last occasion and the people are fully and properly informed on all of these matters? Given the appreciation among Irish people of the importance of the strength of the European Central Bank in terms of financial support for Ireland and other EU member states, they will want to be assured that while the architecture coming from the Lisbon treaty is important for a population of 500 million, it is equally important that the Government has a clear strategy on all the issues which gave rise to concern the last time, and how it intends to deal with them. Perhaps the Taoiseach might comment on that.

The Taoiseach: The Government is appreciative of the all-party committee’s work on this matter prior to the December Council meeting. It made recommendations on what can be done nationally as well as what has to be done in terms of assurances and allaying of concerns that specifically are best dealt with through the process of protocols when these are ultimately obtained in respect of certain issues. Further clarification will be given in respect of others. This is a comprehensive agenda that the Minister for Foreign Affairs is working to, as is the European Union committee. On the question of the ongoing work, we are working within the timeframe, as I have said, to have these matters dealt with at the June European Council. I do not accept that all these matters have been finalised. It is a question of getting agreement from partner countries as 661 Ceisteanna — 25 March 2009. Questions.

[The Taoiseach.] well, which have to sign up to this. It is not just a matter of bringing it to the table on that day. The Presidency, of course, has the task of gauging the support of other member states for the text we propose to put.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: Following on from that, will the Taoiseach tell the House how much progress has been made in terms of agreeing texts on the declarations agreements, protocols and so on which are to be finalised, presumably at the June summit? At what point will Opposition parties in the House be informed on what is happening with those texts? We have had no discussion or consultation about this since last December and I should like to know the up-to-date position and how much progress has been made. I understand the discussion of those texts is being undertaken with the Czech Presidency. Given the loss of confidence in the Czech Government by that country’s Parliament and the implications of that for the Czech Presidency, how is it intended to progress those discussions on the texts? If, as it appears, there is now some ambiguity about the position of the current Czech Government and how the remaining period of its Presidency will be managed and who, precisely, will have responsibility within the government for the conduct of foreign affairs, including European matters, does the Taoiseach still expect these matters to be finalised in time for the June summit? As the responsibility lies with the Czech Presidency to bring the proposals before the summit, and presumably clear the way for agreement in advance with the other member states, is the Taoiseach confident that this can now be done? It seems there are now two areas of uncertainty. One is in relation to the texts and the second concerns the capacity or potential of the Czech Presidency to deliver the agreement in June that will be required if there is to be a second referendum on the Lisbon treaty in the autumn.

The Taoiseach: Discussions are taking place with legal services and our people on the texts. Discussions are ongoing and that is part of the process. As soon as it becomes clear that a meeting of minds has been arrived at which meets requirements and has been gauged to have the necessary support, we can talk to the Opposition about what the situation then is, based on texts which we will know have passed muster with the member states that need to give their approval to the work that is ongoing. As I understand it, the Czech Government will continue in office until the Presidency is over, based on what I was advised yesterday, when this matter was brought to my attention. I do not have any further news on that. The situation is not unprecedented. I believe, if memory serve me right, that during the Slovenian Presidency which had, perhaps, a month to go, when the Prime Minister was defeated in an election, he continued in his position and discharged his functions as President of the Council until the June Council meeting last year. It happened in recent times at any rate. Mr. Topolanek will be allowed to continue in his role, I understand, as caretaker Prime Minister until the Presidency is concluded and the parliamentary vote of no-confidence will not in any way take away from his ability to conduct EU matters as President of the Council on that basis.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I understand there is an informal summit meeting in early April to deal with economic matters. Has the Taoiseach plans to present any pre-budget position to that summit in relation to Ireland’s economic affairs and budgetary situation?

The Taoiseach: I believe that summit will involve picking up on the G20 meeting that is to take place on 2 April. There will be an opportunity, too, for EU heads of government to meet the President of the United States, and to take whatever further steps will be envisaged as a result of the G20 meeting, discussions for which were discussed at the last Council meeting. 662 Ceisteanna — 25 March 2009. Questions.

Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: It was reported at last week’s European Council meeting that the Taoiseach updated his heads of government colleagues in Brussels on the Lisbon treaty and the development of the so-called legally binding guarantees. When will the Taoiseach be in a position to brief the Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas on the same progress that he was in a position to share with the other heads of state last week? I am referring specifically to the so-called legally binding guarantees that will be an attachment to the Lisbon treaty when and if it is to be put before the Irish people once again. The Taoiseach has not responded in any particular manner to the earlier questions put by other Deputies regarding the point that has been reached on agreement on the specific areas that he is seeking to address. Can the Taoiseach share with the House what point he is at, what areas in particular are being addressed and when the specific wording of these signalled legally binding guarantees will be published? When will the Taoiseach publish the specific wording of these signalled legally binding guarantees? I wish to ask the Taoiseach a second question in the context of the European Council. Before putting my question, I acknowledge that the Taoiseach and the Government have been very vocal in their opposition to the actions of Israel in Gaza in the recent past. At the next Euro- pean Council meeting, will the Taoiseach consider calling for the suspension of the Euro- Mediterranean Association Agreement with Israel, accepting that we must go further than the vocal condemnation of the actions Israel has employed against the Palestinian population of Gaza? Does the Taoiseach accept that this particular agreement affords preferential trading arrangements with Israel and that article 2 of the agreement states that it is subject to compliance with human rights? Will he consider taking a proactive position at the next European Council meeting and seek a suspension of that agreement, recognising that it refers only to preferential trading? The proposition I put to the Taoiseach for consideration does not require a cessation of all trade with Israel. Does the Taoiseach accept that by the Government taking that stand and putting the case before the European Council and, if possible, the European Council accepting it, the suspension of this particular agreement would deliver a very important message to the Israeli Government, especially since Israel has clearly demonstrated that it is in breach of human rights, which was confirmed by the UN Human Rights Council in its report published on Monday of this week?

The Taoiseach: In regard to the first matter, when there is sufficient progress to report, the House will be informed of these issues. As I said, we are not in a position to report sufficient progress at this point but when sufficient progress has been made, when we know where were are going and understand there will be support for what the texts state at that point, we will be in a position to have a meaningful discussion about it. On the second point, a parliamentary question on the detail of EU policy towards the state of Israel in the context of Middle East policy would be best put to the Minister for Foreign Affairs for a most accurate and up-to-date position in terms of what Foreign Ministers have been saying and doing on this matter, acting collectively as a General Affairs and External Relations Council. However, I do not necessarily agree the course of action the Deputy proposed would influence for the better the need for a change in policy on the Israel position in regard to Gaza or the two state solution being achieved more quickly than would otherwise be the case. I believe engaging with people, even with those with whom I disagree, on various matters in an effort to influence them. The Deputy might accept, in terms of the political developments of his party, that excluding them from processes has very limited value. 663 Ceisteanna — 25 March 2009. Questions.

Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: The Taoiseach’s response on the progress with the matters pertaining to what I describe as so-called legally binding guarantees as an attachment to the Lisbon treaty was very vague. Apart altogether from the next planned address of these matters at the June European Council meeting, when will he be in a position to give a definitive report to the Houses of the Oireachtas in regard to them? Is he not in a position to give an interim report, which he gave to other Heads of State at last week’s European Council meeting in Brussels on progress with same? He has not given us that information today. In regard to the Euro-Mediterranean Association Agreement with Israel, I put it to the Taoiseach that the notion of a suspension of that agreement which deals specifically with preferential trading arrangements would, in some way, close down the avenue of dialogue and engagement does not hold up. I am immediately reminded of the attitude adopted by President Reagan in the United States to sanctions on South Africa during the course of the dreadful apartheid years. One must take a stand. In my opening remarks, I was forthright in acknowledging that the Government has been vocal in its opposition to what has happened in Gaza. Does the Taoiseach accept we must go further and give international leadership? Does he accept that it is not only in terms of the Israeli audience that such steps and actions should be taken by the European Community but that the Palestinian people also need to see action and not only hear utterances on the part of the collective weight of the European Community? It is about direct dialogue with the Palestinian people and the people of Israel and their respective representatives. It is hugely important that a step such as this would be considered. If the Taoiseach is absolutely opposed to this specific proposition, what further steps are he and the Government currently considering to bring it home to the Israeli Government that its actions are unacceptable and that over that period of time 431 children were killed in the sequential bom- bardment? This horrific action on the part of a democratically elected Government——

An Ceann Comhairle: We cannot have a speech on the Middle East in the middle of questions on the Taoiseach’s meeting with EU leaders.

Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: It is wholly within their ambit. This horrific action on the part of a democratically elected Government is in breach of article 2 of that particular Euro- Mediterranean Association Agreement with Israel. Is it not now time to take those actions or what other actions is the Taoiseach considering?

The Taoiseach: On the comment on common foreign and security policy at EU level, that is a decision to be taken by the General Affairs and External Relations Council and, indeed, the European Council should it come up for discussion at that level. We have made our position clear. It is well known and appreciated by those who are interested in this area. We have had a consistent view on this matter. I do not accept the reference to apartheid governments in South Africa as being a relevant reference point. While one might fundamentally disagree with Israel’s policies, it is a democratic country which elects its government, the same as here. The policy in regard to the two state solution is the right of Israel to live in peace and security and the right of the Palestinians to have a viable Palestinian state. We condemn all violence in the Middle East and we hold no brief for any infringement of human rights in respect of the conduct of military operations. What happened in Gaza was greatly regrettable; it was appalling. We have made our position very clear. It is also appalling that rockets were sent from within that area into Israel. I believe in a proportionate response and the need for great care to be taken in respect of civilian populations. All of these inter- 664 Ceisteanna — 25 March 2009. Questions. national conventions must be respected. The position of the Government is crystal clear on these matters. It is in the interests of obtaining a fair and just solution in the Middle East that we have taken these positions. The point the Deputy raised suggests that a better way to bring about that solution is that we suspend the Euro-Mediterranean Association Agreement with Israel. Based on what the Deputy said, I am not convinced that would be something which would bring about a resolution to the wider problem more quickly.

Deputy Billy Timmins: I want to raise three issues, two of which follow on from what the Taoiseach said earlier. Am I correct to assume with certainty that there will be a second Lisbon treaty referendum in the last quarter of this year? If that is the case, the Taoiseach probably will be aware that the Referendum Commission stated in its report that it would need far greater time than it had to familiarise itself with the topic and disseminate information. I understand that at the moment the legislation provides that the commission must be established within 90 days of the publication of the referendum Bill. The commission’s report mentioned a term twice as long as that. Does the Taoiseach agree that it may be important to set up the Referendum Commission, if that is the model which will be used to disseminate information? Does he agree it should be set up sooner rather than later and that we should not wait until June when we will have received the guarantees? Did the issue of Sudan and the expulsion of aid agencies from it come up at the Council meeting? If it did, what measures, if any, have we taken to ensure aid is available in Sudan? On the previous subject Deputy O´ Caola´in mentioned, does the Taoiseach agree that perhaps we in this House could serve this difficult situation better? Instead of groups such as the Friends of Israel and the Friends of Palestine, perhaps we could look at setting up a Friends of Israel and Palestine group. Every political party here agrees with the two-state solution. Rather than placing the emphasis on division we should place it on the common ground that exists and try to come up with a common position on the problem.

The Taoiseach: Regarding the last suggestion by the Deputy, that is a matter for Members to decide. There are strongly held views on this matter. It is important, from a Government point of view, that in saying we are even-handed we are not ambiguous about the need to stand up for what is right, fair and just in all the circumstances. It is an issue which has not been amenable to solution, despite the best diplomatic efforts of many. As we know from our own peace process, the need for people to directly engage is a fundamental part of building a process that is sustainable and resilient against those who would attack the process. In that respect, I welcome the prospect of an Israeli Government supporting a two-state solution, in view of the fact that the Israeli Labour Party, I understand, is indicating its preparedness to join the Netanyahu Government. I hope people like Ehud Barak and others will be able to temper the policy positions of that Government in a way that would be helpful to the situation generally and pursue a diplomatic course that might enable the leadership in Palestine to respond appropriately as well. Regarding the first matter, it might be premature to set up such a commission until such time as we see the conclusions arising out of the European Council to our satisfaction. I am aware the commission has a view as to what it regards as the optimum position, from its point of view, but we have a position where we have to get political agreement, more than likely at the June European Council meeting. Conclusions have to be satisfactory. We can then make a political decision as to where we go from there. We need to do that within a time frame that is before the tenure of the new Commission. 665 Ceisteanna — 25 March 2009. Questions.

Deputy Billy Timmins: Did the Darfur issue come up at that meeting?

The Taoiseach: Not at heads of Government level, but whatever conclusions refer to foreign policy matters would have been discussed at the Foreign Ministers’ meetings.

Deputy Joe Costello: Did the Taoiseach brief his colleagues on the updated situation regarding the Lisbon treaty? The treaty issue seems to have gotten fairly short shrift. Did the Taoiseach go into the matter in detail? Is there any information he provided for them that he can usefully provide to us here? Can he give us some indication as to who is drafting the texts of the legal guarantees? Is it being done by the Department of Foreign Affairs or the European Commission? Is it being done in a consultative capacity? When does the Taoiseach intend to consult with the Opposition on the issue? Can he tell us whether there is agreement in Cabinet regarding the guarantees on neutrality and defence? The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley has already stated publicly that he wants the European Defence Agency excluded from any Irish agreement. It is time the issue was clarified for us so we know where exactly the Govern- ment stands. I agree with Deputy Timmins. The Referendum Commission published its report. It was extremely critical of the short period of time it had to inform the Irish people and we know that was a major problem with the last Lisbon treaty referendum. The commission was seeking five months, well in excess of the three months available at the present time. Before that, we must have enabling legislation. Perhaps the Taoiseach could clarify that, as well as when he will bring the Opposition parties into his confidence on these issues. The defence issue raises many complex questions that have already given rise to disagreement within our own party. The socio-ethical issues could also be quite complex. In view of this, there can be no question of a fait accompli that might take place in a legal drafting vacuum, where a package can be presented in June. Regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the United Nations report which was published a number of days ago called for an international investigation into the allegations of the abuses of human rights. The Joint Committee on European Affairs has already set in place, through a motion, a process whereby the main players, particularly those mentioned in the United Nations report, would come attend the committee and give their views on their perception of whether there were violations of human rights and international law. Will the Taoiseach be prepared to take the results of those proceedings, with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, to a European summit meeting and raise them in the context of what action is required to ensure Israel remains a bona fide member? At the present time it has preferential trading agreements regarding the Euromed trading agreement. There must be some sanction so that international law is not flouted, if that is the finding of the committee’s deliberations. The employment summit which has been agreed in Prague by the Czech Republic now appears to have been downgraded by Britain and France. The intention now seems to be that instead of all of the heads of states turning up at such a summit, which would underline the importance of stimulating and highlighting the issue of employment in the European Union itself, the European heads of state will not attend but rather only the troika of states involved at the present time in the Presidency will be present. Can the Taoiseach indicate whether he will attend?

The Taoiseach: Regarding the first matter, such matters are dealt with by the Department of Foreign Affairs’ legal department, acting on advice from the Attorney General’s office in the 666 Ceisteanna — 25 March 2009. Questions. normal way. There is not sufficient progress to report to the Deputy. Until such time as there is sufficient progress, we are not in a position to discuss it with him. We will discuss it with him when we see what is emerging as the likely outcome. The legal texts will be consistent with the political guarantees we have obtained. It was made clear, at the time of the December Council meeting when this agreement was reached by the French Presidency, that we would seek to have those matters, including those that are relevant and are available to be included in a subsequent accession treaty to be inserted as protocols in such an accession treaty. That is the arrangement we have agreed. With regard to what I said at the Council meeting itself, it was not a question of getting short shrift from anybody. It was a question of the President of the European Parliament reporting to the European Council, as is normal at the beginning of every European Council. Arising from that, I was invited by the EU Council President to report on the general state of play in regard to our discussions. I confirmed to him and to the President of the European Parliament that we were in discussions and were still working within the timeframe that was agreed in the December Council meeting and that I expected to have the work completed in time for the June Council meeting so that there would be an opportunity formally to discuss and approve the outcome of that work.

Deputy Joe Costello: What about the European Defence Agency?

The Taoiseach: We will ensure our position is consistent with our common foreign and security policy in these areas.

Deputy Joe Costello: The Minister, Deputy Gormley, is getting short shrift.

The Taoiseach: Nobody is getting short shrift. If the Deputy wants to keep his little niggle going with the Green Party, that is his business. I have outlined the overall position. In regard to the second question, it is a matter for the committees of this House to invite who they wish to their meetings and to issue whatever reports they wish. In the context of discussions on the Middle East, which is an ongoing part of the agenda of the General Affairs Council, I am sure the Minister will make reference, where it is merited, to the views of the parliamentary committee on any of these matters. Clearly, however, the overall Government position is to uphold international humanitarian law at all times, recognising that certain issues must be adhered to and where certain issues arise, they must be dealt with. As I have said, the question of the issuing of sanctions is always open for discussion. One must consider the pros and cons and whether such an approach would improve or disimprove the situation and whether it would influence the situation. The Minister for Foreign Affairs will be guided by those discussions with colleagues and will offer a view if such an item ever comes on the agenda. A parliamentary question to the Minister would provide the Deputy with the most up-to-date and accurate position on this matter. The third issue raised by the Deputy relates to the employment summit. The outcome of the discussions in this regard is that the social partners would be met by the troika, comprising the current Presidency and the next two member states to assume the Presidency, to discuss their views on these matters.

Deputy Joe Costello: In other words, it is no longer a summit.

The Taoiseach: I do not have the conclusion before me but my recollection is that the matter has been dealt with as I have indicated and that there will be a report to the European Council 667 Order of 25 March 2009. Business

[The Taoiseach.] meeting, as well as to the meeting with the United States President, Mr. Obama, that is due to take place.

Request to move Adjournment of Daíl under Standing Order 32. An Ceann Comhairle: Anois, iarratas chun tairisceana a dheánamh an Daíl a chur ar athlo´ faoi Bhuan Ordu´ 32.

Deputy Terence Flanagan: I seek the adjournment of the Da´il under Standing Order 32 to raise a matter of national importance, namely, the urgent need for the Minister for Education and Science to reverse his decision to reduce the number of special needs teachers from September 2009 in view of the detrimental effect on the pupils concerned and the fact that it will reverse progress made in this area. This decision must be reversed in the forthcoming emergency budget.

An Ceann Comhairle: Tar eís breithnithe a dheánamh ar an nıárdaithe, nı´lse´ in ord faoi Bhuan Ordu´ 32.

Order of Business. The Taoiseach: It is proposed to take No. 12, pre-budget statements (resumed); and No. 1, Industrial Development Bill 2008 [Seanad] — Second Stage. Private Members’ business shall be No. 49, motion re Oireachtas reform (resumed), to conclude at 8.30 p.m., if not previously concluded.

An Ceann Comhairle: There are no proposals to put to the House.

Deputy Enda Kenny: Is it intended to hold a referendum on children’s rights, as promised by the Government? The programme for Government 2007-12 includes a number of legislative commitments. What is the status of the programme given that it was predicated on an annual growth in the economy of 4%. Is it to be rewritten? In respect of the disagreement that has apparently arisen between the Department of Finance and the Department of Education and Science in regard to third level fees, the former seems to view fees as an income stream in budgetary terms——

An Ceann Comhairle: As he well knows, Deputy Kenny cannot raise the issue of third level fees on the Order of Business.

Deputy Enda Kenny: My question relates to legislative proposals which will be introduced through the Finance Bill after 7 April.

An Ceann Comhairle: Questions on the Finance Bill are not in order.

Deputy Enda Kenny: The Fine Gael spokesman, Deputy Brian Hayes, has introduced a realistic set of proposals for graduate contributions. We will not support the reintroduction of third level fees or loans to students but we will support a graduate contribution.

An Ceann Comhairle: We cannot discuss this issue on the Order of Business.

Deputy Enda Kenny: Will the Taoiseach comment on whether the reported disagreement relates to cash flow issues? We do not want the gates to be closed on young people’s prospects of proceeding to third level—— 668 Order of 25 March 2009. Business

An Ceann Comhairle: There are no circumstances under which we can discuss higher education fees.

Deputy Enda Kenny: ——which is so important in terms of the smart economy to which the Taoiseach has rightly referred on numerous occasions?

An Ceann Comhairle: This is far too broad a subject to be discussed on the Order of Business.

Deputy Enda Kenny: The Ceann Comhairle has persisted in interrupting me.

An Ceann Comhairle: I did so because the Deputy is not in order.

Deputy Enda Kenny: I asked the Taoiseach about a legislative matter.

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Kenny knows we cannot have a discussion on higher education fees on the Order of Business. It is too large a subject and it is not in order.

The Taoiseach: Regarding the prospect of a constitutional referendum on children’s rights, it has been our long-standing position to see whether a consensus can be arrived at through the deliberations of the Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children. I understand discussions are ongoing and that a consensus has not yet emerged. The Minister of State with responsibility for Children, Deputy Barry Andrews, has spoken on this issue. On the Deputy’s second question, the legislative programme is as outlined in the list provided by the Whip at the beginning of every session in an effort to make progress on the issues in question, quite apart from those issues that may arise and which cannot be planned for. In regard to the programme for Government, the priorities that must be decided upon are best gauged from the annual statements Ministers are now providing based on the money that is available. In the current economic crisis, prioritisation is necessary in all aspects.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: At the Fianna Fa´il Ard-Fheis the Taoiseach promised legislation to provide for greater accountability and transparency of funding and the sources of funding by those participating in referendum campaigns in the State. When will that legislation be introduced? Is it intended to have it enacted in advance of any second referendum on the Lisbon treaty? Are there any plans for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to make a statement to the House in connection with the resignation of the chairman of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority?

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy’s second question is not in order. The Taoiseach may respond to the first issue raised.

The Taoiseach: As the Deputy said, I made an announcement that it was necessary to make some changes to the law in this area so that there is a level playing field for everybody. The intention is that those changes will be enacted and effective before the next referendum campaign.

Deputy Charles Flanagan: Ten months ago, in May 2008, the Da´il completed its deliberations on Second Stage of the Defamation Bill 2006, at which point a resolution was made that it be sent to committee. The Bill has not been seen since and seems to be in some type of limbo. If the Minister cannot inform me today of the intention of the Government in respect of this Bill, will he let me know as soon as possible when it is intended to progress it? 669 Order of 25 March 2009. Business

[Deputy Charles Flanagan.]

Allied to this legislation was the Privacy Bill 2006 which fell on the dissolution of the last Government and was subsequently re-enacted but has not since progressed. I understand it may be in the Seanad but this is not clear. Is it the intention of the Government to introduce a privacy Bill as promised in the programme for Government? It was certainly the intention of previous Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that such legislation should be enacted, but nobody has commented on it in recent times. Will the Taoiseach inform the House whether it is Government policy to proceed with it and, if so, when?

The Taoiseach: I understand the Privacy Bill 2006 is on Second Stage in the Seanad. As the Deputy observed, the Defamation Bill 2006 is awaiting Committee Stage. I will have to check with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform as to what the intentions are in that regard.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Legislation on estate management companies has been promised for some time and has been referred to by the Taoiseach and Ta´naiste in the House. Has agreement been reached on the heads of a Bill? Are the provisions likely to be introduced, as has been indicated to the House, in a single Bill sponsored by one Minister?

The Taoiseach: The Bill is being drafted and that is the intention. It should be coming in next session.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I am getting worried. This must be the longest drafting in history because we have been promised this Bill for the past couple of years.

An Ceann Comhairle: No commentaries.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: As we speak, severe hardship and anxiety have been perpetrated on unfortunate constituents who do not know what the outcome will be.

An Ceann Comhairle: I cannot go into that now.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: With due respect, I ask the Taoiseach that instead of promising the legislation he should bring it into the House so we can consider it. I have raised the issue of organised crime several times before, as has Deputy Charles Flanagan and other Members of the House. Organised crime in this country has clearly got out of hand. There is a series of proposed legislation on the list, none of which is moving. Nothing is happening. Why can we not bring in one of the Bills? For example, we could have the extradition Bill which would be useful. There is now clear evidence that criminals in this part of the country are supplying——

An Ceann Comhairle: We cannot have commentaries now.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: ——arms to execute people in other jurisdictions. There is evidence to that effect.

An Ceann Comhairle: We cannot go into that now.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: We are doing nothing about it. A Cheann Comhairle, it is our duty to raise this issue and the Taoiseach should respond.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has raised it and I will ask him to respond. That is it then.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Good. The question is which piece of that proposed legislation he will move as a matter of urgency to combat organised crime. 670 Order of 25 March 2009. Business

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy cannot ask a multiple choice question.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Will I read them all out? I do not want to do that.

An Ceann Comhairle: There is no need.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Good.

An Ceann Comhairle: No multiple choice questions are allowed on the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach: The criminal justice amendment Bill will be introduced later this year. The heads of the extradition Bill have been agreed and it has gone for drafting. In the interest of being able to get detailed and accurate information, I can simply continue to refer to the time schedules every morning I get up here to speak. A parliamentary question and interaction with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on these matters would be a far better use of the procedures we have.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: We do not always get correct replies.

Deputy Charles Flanagan: It is the same answer. The Minister for Finance did not reply to Deputy Kenny.

The Taoiseach: The House needs to reflect on whether the same questions are being asked every morning.

Deputy Billy Timmins: The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is never around.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: We depend on the Taoiseach to give the right answer.

Deputy Seymour Crawford: I know that Deputy Mattie McGrath yesterday raised the issue of the abuse of alcohol. In that light, when will the sale of alcohol Bill be brought into the House? We have been promised considerable support regarding consumers and competition. That particularly affects those of us in the Border area. When will the consumer and competition Bill be introduced in order that we can discuss the issue in the House? Finally and by no means least, Pathways rehabilitation centre in the Cavan hospital complex has been closed down.

An Ceann Comhairle: We are beginning to stray.

Deputy Seymour Crawford: No. When will the eligibility for health and personal social services Bill be introduced so that people will know their entitlements?

The Taoiseach: The first Bill should be available in the middle of this year. No date has yet been fixed for the other two Bills.

Deputy Joe Costello: I again ask if the Taoiseach has any information on the regulation of management companies Bill.

The Taoiseach: As I told Deputy Durkan, it will be in the next session.

An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy Reilly.

Deputy Joe Costello: I thought Deputy Durkan was asking about estate management.

The Taoiseach: What was the Deputy asking about? 671 Order of 25 March 2009. Business

Deputy Joe Costello: Estate management is different from the regulation of management of management companies.

The Taoiseach: Is it the property services Bill?

Deputy Joe Costello: We are not sure.

The Taoiseach: There is a multi-units development Bill and a property services Bill.

Deputy Joe Costello: Will that cover the issues?

An Ceann Comhairle: We cannot go into the content.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch: We do not know, a Cheann Comhairle.

Deputy Joe Costello: When are we likely to get the——

The Taoiseach: Next session, as I was saying to Deputy Durkan.

An Ceann Comhairle: If he does not know it is difficult for me to know. This is the problem we have.

Deputy Joe Costello: Estate management is different from the regulation of management companies.

The Taoiseach: He was talking about the multi-unit development Bill.

Deputy Joe Costello: They are different Bills. I am asking about the regulation of management companies. When will we get the Bill?

The Taoiseach: There is no such Bill as the regulation management companies Bill. There is no Bill with that name.

Deputy Joe Costello: There may not be any such Bill, but when will we get legislation to regulate management companies.

The Taoiseach: Next session.

Deputy Joe Costello: I thank the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle: There we go.

Deputy James Reilly: Two weeks ago I asked the Taoiseach whether in the upcoming finance Bill he would consider reducing the VAT from 21.5% to the lower rate on cervical cancer vaccines.

An Ceann Comhairle: It was not allowed two weeks ago either.

Deputy James Reilly: I am sure the Taoiseach would like to reassure people that there is some help for children and the parents of children who want to get them vaccinated against cervical cancer.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy knows the rules.

Deputy James Reilly: The education patronage Bill does not mention Educate Together and only the VECs are mentioned regarding their ability to become patrons. 672 Order of 25 March 2009. Business

An Ceann Comhairle: That would be a good point to make on the Second Stage.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan: In accordance with an EU directive, we are supposed to regulate and control so-called “party drugs” which are available in so-called “head shops” around the country without any control and with very dubious side effects. This was to have been done by the end of March. I have raised the matter a few times on the Order of Business. At one stage I was told it would be addressed. I do not know whether primary or secondary legislation is required. Does the Taoiseach have any information as to when it is intended to control such drugs?

An Ceann Comhairle: Is anything promised regarding that matter?

The Taoiseach: Some measure will be brought to Government next week.

Deputy David Stanton: As the Taoiseach also seems to be getting frustrated with the procedures here, perhaps he will at some stage encourage and support Da´il reform. However, we will move on from that. When will the Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) No. 1 Bill be published? What is happening with the local government Bill to give effect to the \200 charge on non-principal private residences? Will it be published shortly or will it be subsumed into the budget? People are concerned about the road traffic and transport Bill to amend the blood alcohol content level.

The Taoiseach: The road traffic and transport parts have been split. I understand the road traffic aspect of it will come forward this session. The first——

Deputy David Stanton: What about the rest of them?

The Taoiseach: I am coming to them. I am moving along. The first Bill was published on 19 March. The Deputy should check his cubbyhole. We cannot give a date for the second one at the moment.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: As the Taoiseach probably knows, the Oireachtas Joint Com- mittee on Transport has meet many of the stakeholders in Dublin Airport to discuss the SR Technics issue. One of the issues that has emerged is that the Minister for Transport, who is beside the Taoiseach, and his Department seemed to know of the closure of SR Technics early last November.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy raised this matter on the Adjournment.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: Did the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, inform the Taoiseach and the Cabinet. Will the Taoiseach now ask him to make a statement to the House? We had five months——

An Ceann Comhairle: I cannot allow that.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: ——either to get ready for a succession industry or to try to prevent the closure.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy can find another way to raise that matter.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: We have not heard from the Minister who is sitting beside the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle: We cannot go into that now. 673 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: Would he make a statement to the House? Somebody did not do his job, not for the first time.

An Ceann Comhairle: If every Deputy came in with matters of concern like that, we would unfortunately spend the entire day discussing each Deputy’s complaint. I cannot do that. I am now moving to pre-budget statements.

Pre-Budget Statements (Resumed). Deputy Kathleen Lynch: Having this format of debate is unique, but we are not living in normal times. To have budget statements before the budget is even produced or before we know the contents of the budget or its target and how the Government intends to reach that target is unusual. However, as I said, we are living in unusual times and in a time 12 o’clock of crisis. That time of crisis must be addressed on several fronts. More than anything, one of the fundamentals of any economy is confidence. Unfortunately, in the present crisis the people no longer have confidence in the Government to bring us out the other side, which is unfortunate. I believe the economy can be turned around and that the Government should make every effort to turn it around. As we speak the people have lost confidence in the Government which means one of the fundamentals is now in shatters. We cannot get past this crisis unless we deal with the banks — it is as simple as that. The banks were not just reckless but treasonous in their approach to the economy. When bankers start to become gamblers, serious problems arise, and that is what happened in this country. I have said it before and I will say it again; we had one of the most conservative banking industries in the world. We had a banking industry that would nearly ask one to sign over one’s house as collateral for a very small loan. While we all complained about that in the past, and in many ways it was too strict, what happened afterwards was definitely something of which we should have been conscious and should never have allowed to happen. We are now looking at a daily crisis. We awake to a new bad news story every single morning. Yet, the people who were responsible are still in situ. There have been just two resignations and these happened only under tremendous pressure. Through all of this, the people who got us into this position have continued to hold their positions, have continued to take salaries that to the majority of people are fantasy money, and continue to give themselves bonuses, for what I do not know. All we hear is that the Minister for Finance will be speaking to them — in polite terms, I am sure. The deference they feel they are due will be given, although it should not be. We have completely guaranteed our banking system. As a Government and a democracy, we should now have a say in how the finances of this country are run. If we do not have a banking system in which we have confidence, one that is properly regulated and one we can rely on and be assured is run in a proper manner, this economy will simply not turn around. I heard recently that the property portfolio of the entire country was valued at \40 billion in 1986. Some 20 years later, in 2006, it was valued at \554 billion. That cannot not make sense in any man’s language. Our individual wealth did not increase so much as to suggest the value of our property could have increased that much. Day after day, I listen to Government backbenchers and Ministers who tell us, as the Taoiseach did this morning, that we are in the middle of an international economic crisis, which we are — the financial crisis has affected everyone. However, as a nation, we have not taken on any foreign toxic debt, nor has our banking system. What we have is an international financial crisis and underneath it we inserted a property bubble. That bubble burst, which is why we are suffering more than other countries.

674 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

One would imagine that if we were all suffering, other countries might suffer more than us but they are not. Per head of population, we are suffering more than other countries as a result of a tax-fuelled, Government-driven property bubble that was the equivalent of a pyramid scheme which we all knew was going to collapse — one would want to be a fool not to believe that. We were told this time and again but the Government said “no” and told us to party on. The rest of us were all doom and gloom, naysayers and pinkos. However, that is where we are now. What this country now needs is not historians but visionaries but, unfortunately, I do not see them on the Government benches. It is usual during budget debates to suggest the Government has not done enough for one group or has done too much for another — this is the normal cut and thrust of budget contributions. This budget is unusual in that we are having the contributions beforehand. The Government says it will take them on board and while perhaps I am a little too long in the game to believe it, that is as may be. The loss of every job costs us \20,000 and it is now estimated that there are 320,000 unemployed, with 26,000 more people on the live register in February alone. I do not believe that figure because it is far more than that, and the reason for this relates to a group I want to discuss. During the madness that we called the Celtic tiger, we forced an entire section of the population to become employers. Principal companies decided to no longer employ their workers. Due to the way our taxes were structured, it made far more economic and tax sense for those companies to tell their employees that they needed to go on a C2 or C35. The workers would then be employing themselves and were completely responsible for their own liabilities. The company would supply the workers and the materials for them to keep doing the job they were doing originally, but the company would no longer have any responsibility towards them. There are thousands of such people out there. They were not the big developers who bought the Ballsbridge sites of this world or the big speculators who speculated on the currencies of other countries. These were ordinary people who did well when everyone was doing well and went on to employ others. These people are now unemployed, unregistered, unofficial and not protected by the redundancy schemes, social welfare or anyone. We must do something about this. We cannot continue to talk about the macro picture unless we begin to look at the human tragedy which is this crisis. These people are at the doors of community welfare officers but these officers have not received additional help and are under such strain that they are working late into the evening and are having to turn away people or adjust in some way in order to meet the crisis. No one is talking about this crisis but it is one this budget must account for. We found money for the bankers, the developers and many others and we now need to find money for the people who find themselves in danger of losing their homes and families, and who have nothing to live on, week after week. In order to even be registered as unemployed when one is on a C2 or C35, one must have a tax clearance certificate but the Revenue Commissioners are now six weeks behind in this regard. These people saw this crisis coming a year ago and, as a result of the effort to keep going, in some instances they have outstanding tax bills. However, they should never have been in that category in the first place. It was the Government which put the system in place in order to force these people to be entrepreneurs when they never wanted that. They wanted to be employed to do a job and to build the infrastructure this country needed. We are now leaving them out there in limbo. If the Government does nothing else in this budget other than to look at the human tragedy behind it, I plead with it to do that.

Deputy Michael McGrath: I welcome the opportunity to make a contribution to this pre- budget debate in advance of what must be one of the most important statements of fiscal strategy by any Government in this country, which we will see on 7 April. It is important for 675 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Michael McGrath.] a number of reasons. In my view, the budget, which will be introduced in less than two weeks’ time, must achieve a number of objectives. We must restore Ireland’s credibility on the international market and among investors and we must show that we are in control of our public finances. We must set out a clear, coherent and achievable plan for the next three years if we are to bring order to the public finances. We must also rebuild confidence among consumers and the business community in Ireland that we have an economic future. We must take the correct decisions now to allow us to once again return to economic prosperity. We must be set out a clear and understandable strategy that people can buy into. We, in this House, share a collective responsibility to ensure that the steps taken on 7 April are sufficient to put Ireland on the road to economic recovery, thus benefiting everyone in the country. The current crisis is often characterised in this House and in the media as an Irish problem. That is not the case. Global trade will contract in 2009 for the first time in 60 years. That is a fact. Economies such as China, Singapore, Dubai and so on, once the shining lights of the world, are also suffering. Let us for a moment consider the profile of the Irish economy. We are a small open economy, heavily reliant on exports and international trade with a limited domestic market and a population of in excess of 4 million people. When one considers that profile, one quickly realises we are very much at the mercy of the global economic environment. It is true that we had a particular reliance on the construction sector during the boom, a boom which ended abruptly. However, we are at the mercy of international conditions and must work within that template. We cannot revert to the old model of protectionism. We must remain fully involved in international trade because the model of opening up the country, attracting inward investment and encouraging indigenous investment is what worked for us. As public representatives, we all know that the recession in Ireland has manifested itself in a number of stark ways, including the dramatic increase in the number of people on the live register, which last month stood at 354,000. We have all seen in our constituency offices the human price being paid during this recession. There will be a sharp contraction in our economy this year, namely, in excess of 6%, with a further contraction likely in 2010. Our public finances have deteriorated rapidly, with a deficit of \20 billion or more in 2009 if corrective action is not taken immediately. As stated by Deputy Lynch, confidence has been drained. Even those who have money are not spending it because they are afraid of what is around the corner. For this reason, it is essential the strategy put forward on 7 April is credible and restores confidence among people that there is a road map to economic recovery. We must face up to the stark reality of Ireland in 2009. As policymakers, we in Government must, as we have been doing to date, rise to the challenge on 7 April, which is a critically important day for this country. The reality is that the gap between current expenditure and tax revenue needs to be bridged. Addressing this \18 billion to \20 billion gap which is staring us in the face is too large a task to tackle in one, two or even three years. This is the reason the Government set out in its submission to the European Commission a five-year plan to return us by 2013 to the 3% deficit under the Stability and Growth Pact. In setting out that strategy, we are trying to restore credibility among the international markets and investors. The facility to borrow internationally is not one we can take for granted. We are competing with almost every other developed country in the world and do not want to be charged punitive interest rates in the bond markets because we have not demonstrated a capacity to get on top of our own affairs. There have been some positive signs. Members may have read in today’s The Irish Times that the National Treasury Management Agency raised a further \1 billion yesterday on the bond markets bringing the total raised to date to \11 billion. The Government will probably have to borrow approximately \25 billion this year. The key issue is what will be the cost of 676 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) that debt. It is true that we have been paying a premium for our borrowings because of the state of our public finances. For example, the gap between the Irish and German ten year bonds widened last week to 284 basis points, its widest level in ten years. However, yesterday this returned to 249 basis points. I make that point simply to highlight the fact that there is an added cost in respect of our borrowings owing to the state of our finances, which we must get to grips with on 7 April. We have to show that we can take the tangible steps required to get our affairs in order; otherwise, the cost of borrowing will be even greater in the months ahead. In making the fiscal correction between expenditure and revenue, we will have to strike a balance between taking the steps required and ensuring that we do not take too much out of the economy in one year, thus sending it into a complete cycle of depression which could result in the recession lasting longer than it otherwise might. We must get that balance right. A question arises as to over what period of time the deficit should be addressed. I welcome that the EU Commission has approved the Government’s submission in regard to the 9.5% deficit which it hopes to achieve in 2009 and to restoring the 3% deficit by 2013. It is important to point out that other significant players in the European Union, including Britain, France, Spain and Greece, have also been given additional time by the European Commission to correct their growing budget deficits. While general government debt in Ireland stood at 41% at the end of last year, it remains well below the 60% EU average. However, we will probably breach that percentage in the next 12 months because of the scale of deterioration in our public finances. We must borrow sensibly and we must ensure that we are not borrowing in the long term to fund current expenditure as that is simply not sustainable. There is a need for stimulus measures in the budget. We do not have the facility available to the Obama Administration of being able to print an extra trillion dollars. However, there are measures we can devise, including enterprise supports. The Acting Chairman, Deputy O’Flynn, made some positive suggestions in regard to keeping people at work. We must embrace some of those ideas. We must think outside the box if we are to get through the current difficulties. I watched with interest George Lee’s programme “How we blew the boom”, which was shown on RTE during the week. While the title was provocative and created an impression of what the programme would be about, those who watched it will know it was a sensible and responsible programme. We need to put on the record how the fruits of the boom were utilised. For example, the national debt was reduced to historically low levels; we invested significantly in the National Pensions Reserve Fund, which will now be used for other purposes; we created enormous levels of employment and had 2 million at work; we invested in capital infrastructure; and we improved social welfare payments to a level not imaginable a few years ago. That is what we did during the boom. However, we are in a completely different environment now and must respond accordingly. It is essential we remain at the heart of the European Union. The support we receive from the European Central Bank is critical to our strategy to restore our public finances and to achieve economic prosperity. For this reason, I hope people will when voting for the second time on the Lisbon treaty ensure Ireland remains at the heart of Europe, economically and politically. We must take the opportunity — it is an opportunity — presented by this recession to restore our competitiveness. We must aggressively drive down costs right across the board. If we are taking more money out of people’s pockets and are reducing their disposable income, then we must, if there is not to be a relative deterioration in our quality of life, reduce the cost of living. We simply must achieve this and must emerge from this recession more competitive and in a better position to take advantage of the global upturn when it comes.

677 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy James Reilly: Ireland Inc. is in serious trouble. I wish to respond to some of what Deputy McGrath has just said. If we are to be able to plan for the future, it is important to look at the past and, in particular, to examine the history of this crisis. The National Pensions Reserve Fund was established to meet the pension requirements of the public service. Many people are pleased that it will now be used for other purposes. It is far better to use the fund to invest in infrastructure than to buy stocks and shares on the international market. The boom was wasted in many respects. Examples of waste include the spending of considerable moneys on electronic voting machines and on the PPARS system. Money continues to be wasted in the HSE and in semi-State organisations like FA´ S. I will not deliberate on such matters for too long. I agree with Deputy McGrath that we need a proper plan if we are to avert this ever- worsening situation. It is worth reminding the House that it looks like this country’s tax take will decrease from \55 billion last year to \35 billion, or less, this year. That is an extraordinary turn of events. It cannot be solely attributed to the effects of the international recession on international markets. The reality is that the Government’s approach was unsustainable. It failed to listen to outside economists who warned that the bubble was about to burst. I refer to people like George Lee, David McWilliams and Jim Power, who contradicted what the Taoiseach was saying. Deputy Bruton had been pointing out for a number of years that Ireland’s competitiveness was in decline. Ireland was the fourth most competitive economy in the western world, but it has since dropped almost to the bottom of the pile. That is why we are in our current position. We need to reflect on our ability to get ourselves out of it. The Taoiseach presided over the beginning of the economic downturn during his four years as Minister for Finance. He told us last year that the fundamentals of the economy were sound. Does he still believe that? The Ta´naiste is out of her depth. The Minister for Finance, who by his own admission is unhappy to be in that position, accepted some time ago that the building industry had come to a “shuddering halt”. He now admits that it was a mistake to increase the rate of VAT, thereby costing the taxpayer \700 million and businesses \3.5 billion, which is a substantial amount of money. Rather than admitting his mistakes, he should get on with cor- recting them. He should start by bringing the VAT rate in this jurisdiction into line with that in the North. We need to alleviate some of the pain being caused by the weakness of sterling, which is a problem for us. Anything that makes a problem worse cannot be sustainable. Over recent years, the Department of Finance’s predictions have not been right, either coming up or going down. I understand there were 13 economists in the Department when Dr. Garret FitzGerald was Taoiseach, but there is now just one. Perhaps there has been a recent addition to the Department of Finance’s advisory staff. The Department does not have the resources it needs to deal with the most serious economic crisis this country has ever experienced. Many people believe they are getting better advice from RTE programmes presented by Pat Kenny and Joe Duffy than from the Department of Finance and the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan. We need a realistic and credible plan. I agree with Deputy Michael McGrath that we need a stimulus, but that has been sadly lacking over recent times. Reform is needed if we are to make the savings we need. We need to stop the waste in the HSE, which has a budget of approximately \16 billion. Contrary to the comments of Professor Drumm and the Minister, Deputy Harney, at yesterday’s meeting of the Joint Committee on Health and Children, the reality is that 12 people with brain tumours have been waiting for more than six weeks to receive life-saving surgery in outlying hospitals throughout this country. That is just one example of services not being made available to patients. In 2009, that is a bad reflection on Ireland. 678 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputies have alluded to the difficulties of self-employed people. Earlier this week, a man came to my clinic to tell me he had seriously injured his shoulder in a fall. It is possible that he will not be able to work again. He will certainly be unable to work in maintenance, as he was doing before. He cannot get social welfare assistance even though he has paid all his taxes and his stamps. I will raise that matter with the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Hanafin. It demonstrates that people are not getting the help they need. More and more of them are becoming unemployed. Although the authorities knew the unemployment office in Balbriggan was to close, they made no provision for its replacement. It is outrageous that people in Balbriggan and Swords have to queue in the rain or travel to Gardiner Street in Dublin city centre. I would like to speak about the core of this problem. We all agree that we need savings, we need an economic stimulus and we need to broaden our tax base, but we need to decide how those things should be done. Yesterday, the Minister for Health and Children claimed that I oppose all of her reforms, which is not the case. I supported her cervical vaccination scheme, which she later turned her back on. I supported her cervical screening scheme. I would support many of her other schemes if the detail could be amended. The manner in which the HSE was established was wrong, for example. Nobody took the time to do it correctly. This morning, the Taoiseach accused the Opposition of opposing everything. The job of the Opposition is to oppose and expose weaknesses in Government policy so they can be corrected. However, this Government does not take advice, get embarrassed or believe in resignation. I would like to speak about some of the positive things we could be doing. Major infrastructural projects like metro north should go ahead. As an elected representative of Dublin North in this House, I am fully committed to that project, which would involve 7,000 jobs in its construction phase. According to the Indecon report, a further 64,000 jobs will be created along its route when it has been finished. It is extraordinary, particularly following the Celtic tiger era, that Dublin is one of the few capital cities that does not have an underground metro network. That is astonishing. The metro north project would lead to significant development. At least half of its cost could be financed through the public private partnership system. If the rest of the cost were paid over a 25-year period, it would not have a major impact on our national economic balance sheet. It is clear that there needs to be a greater focus on green energy and green industry. We were told two years ago that bio-fuels were bad because they were reducing the global food supply, but we now find that grain prices are collapsing and farmers are looking at losses. Where is our bio-fuel industry? Why has it not been properly developed? Why has there been no real and meaningful investment in this area? What about renewable energy? Airtricity has had great success. Ireland has significant wind power possibilities, not only in coastal areas but also in the middle of the country. The Government is not investing in tidal power technology as it should. This is where we should be going. We need our own green economy so we can be independent of the vagaries of the external oil market. In such circumstances, we could use the interconnectors that have been developed with the UK to become a net exporter of energy. We need to consider the establishment of a bank to help small businesses that are in trouble. We had the Industrial Credit Corporation, ICC, before the Government sold it. We need a new ICC to help companies like SR Technics, for example, which employs almost 1,200 people. If SR Technics is allowed to close, it will be impossible to reassemble its substantial engineering expertise, not to mention its hardware, machinery and equipment. I remind the House that the company’s business books are half-full of orders. Has any attempt been made to save it? When I spoke earlier to Deputy McEntee, who represents Meath East, he told me he had attended a meeting at which it became apparent that the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, knew last October that the SR Technics hangars were being handed back. 679 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Acting Chairman (Deputy Noel O’Flynn): The Deputy’s time is up.

Deputy James Reilly: This is key. Five months has been lost, in addition to all the jobs that are ancillary to the company. On the HPV vaccine, I want to put it on the record again that there is a need to reduce the VAT on that from 21.5% to the lower rate — an issue I have twice raised with the Taoiseach. There should be a stamp duty holiday of 1% for six months to encourage people to jump now and get value when there is value in the market. Also, the building energy regulations should be applied to business premises as well. I thank the Acting Chairman and hand over to my colleague, Deputy Clune.

Acting Chairman: No, the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, is next.

Deputy James Reilly: I apologise to the Minister of State.

Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy John Curran): We are given a chance to say a word as well. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. The Government will bring forward a budget on Tuesday, 7 April. This is often referred to in the media as a mini-budget, which is an unfortunate title because in real terms it will be a very significant budget and will impact greatly on the future path this country will follow. It must address in different ways a number of wide-ranging issues such as the widening gap between Exchequer revenue and expenditure, the need to address the banking situation and, importantly, the area of job creation and job maintenance. This morning at Leaders’ Questions I was interested to hear Deputy Gilmore turn around to the Taoiseach and state that this was his fourth attempt to get it right. If that is the perspective from which he is coming, he is missing the whole picture. There is a global situation occurring. If one looks at the analysis by political and economic correspondents in September and October of last year, the outlook at that point in time was substantially different from the outlook today. The Government should be commended on being prepared to take the initiative and do what is necessary on an ongoing basis rather than saying that it made its decisions come what may. We are responding in a timely fashion as the information comes to the fore, but it would not be true to suggest that the position we are in was predicted by political and economic commentators who were commenting in advance of, and subsequent to, the October budget. There is a significant global situation. Opposition Deputies mentioned the issue of property, which has been significant in Ireland. It is worth standing back and looking at the facts. There are other economies where property did not play a significant role and which did not have the problems in banking, yet they too are seeing substantial declines in their levels of activity. If one looks at those countries, the likes of Hong Kong and Singapore which saw huge growth, most of them are very similar in one aspect to Ireland in that they are open trading economies. The reality is that the countries with which we trade are all in recession and, in simple terms, are buying less. We can address some of the issues on property and banking, but one of the issues that is of fundamental difficulty to us is our productive sector. No matter how much we produce, if the countries into which we sell are buying less, that has a direct impact on us. It is expected in the current year — this would not have been said months ago — that total global trade could be down by as much as 9% and we are very vulnerable and exposed to that. That is an underlying factor. The reason I mentioned that figure specifically is because Deputy Kenny specifically asked the Taoiseach what will be the Government deficit or what is the target. The problem is that 680 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) it is very difficult to pin a target in the manner in which Deputy Kenny was doing if the global trade figure, which is outside our control, is reducing substantially, and one bases one’s figures on an analysis at a given point in time. That is the prospect. Not to focus too much on doom and gloom, the economic stimulus packages provided in the US, the UK and elsewhere will have an impact here because, obviously, they are purchasers of Irish goods. The commentary and the opinions being expressed in recent times by Jean Claude Trichet and the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, are becoming more optimistic in their outlook. They are markets to which we must look. Clearly the Government has a position that the deficit will reduce to 3% during the five- year period to 2013, and that is very significant. The point is to try to track that along the way with international trade on which we are dependent. We have historical issues to deal with in terms of property and banking, but of fundamental importance to this country are exports, which account for so much of what we produce. We are dependent on that export market and if we forget about that, we are not addressing the real issue. The type of stimulus package that was introduced in the US would not work here because we do not have the capacity internally to consume all we are producing. There are certain stimuli we could introduce that would have some impact but would never have the same impact as in a large economy like the US that is not exposed in the same way to international trade as Ireland. That is quite important. I want to briefly mention the banking sector. I sat here a few weeks ago when the legislation on the recapitalisation was going through when a colleague on the opposite side of the House, for whom I have great respect and with whom I served on the Committee of Public Accounts, Deputy Noonan, referred to the share prices on the day. I note that in the intervening period the share prices of the main banks in Ireland have stabilised significantly. A solid financial banking system is not enough. It is how the system performs to help the economy that matters. Incidentally, I was glad to see as part of the package that in the case of homeowners in difficulties with loans, the first step would not be to institute default proceedings in the courts, etc. One of my concerns is that we monitor and ensure that businesses, particularly SMEs, can access credit. Those credit figures need to be published on a regular basis because we are trying, not alone to do business but to instill confidence in the economy. The publishing of the credit available — I hope we see growth in the credit available to businesses — would be a positive step in that regard. For a long time I have held the view, which I have discussed not with the Minister for Finance but with a number of other people, that the bad bank scenario should be advanced. Until that happens, until the distressed and doubtful loans are cleared up within the balance sheets of banks, there are concerns about how they will progress. We often speak of toxic debts, but behind those are assets which an asset management agency or the State would acquire with the debt. Those assets are not to be viewed as having no value. They might be difficult to dispose of in the current economic climate — a couple of years ago they were incredibly valuable and the State in many cases would not have been in a position to buy them — and they will have value again. It is a question of managing those assets that are related to the debt over an extended period; that is very important. Having been self-employed for 20 years before I came into this House — I was involved in an SME where, I suppose, we saw good and bad times — the following is one of the areas about which I would be concerned. We speak of job creation and foreign direct investment, but I am of the view, old-fashioned though it may be, that it is easier to hold on to a job than to create a new job, and we need to look at that proactively. For example, a hotel not far from me recently put 180 of its staff on a three-day week. Effectively, that means they are on social 681 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy John Curran.] welfare for a couple of days and they are working for a couple of days. When they are on social welfare, they are not productively employed. During these difficult times, during the depth of the recession, we need to be able to divert social welfare payments and supports to people to maintain them in employment which would have the effect of increasing the productive capacity and competitiveness of that entity. That is something we need to look at in great detail. Regrettably, we are seeing companies close and go into liquidation. As a consequence, those companies are not able to clear all their debts and other surviving companies are now carrying bad debts and may be encountering difficulties meeting their tax, such as VAT, and rates liabilities. Just as the Government asked the banks to deal sympathetically and leniently with homeowners, the Revenue Commissioners, instead of adopting the tradition of referring cases fairly promptly to the sheriff, now need to sit down with a more compassionate view towards business and look at companies in difficulty to understand whether they are in difficulty because of a hiccup or a bad debt they might have incurred, albeit they may still have a solid financial basis. If that is the case they need to put in place a programme to allow companies to trade through their present difficulties rather than initiating with the sheriff. This will be very difficult. Our expenditure and revenue do not match by a long way, so the Government will have to increase taxes and cut expenditure. Our tax base has diminished and we need to broaden it, but whatever we do to raise taxes it must be seen to be equitable and be understood by the public. As a result of this budget everybody will have to pay something, but it is critically important that those who can afford it most pay most. On a personal note I am very pleased to see the partnership agreements and negotiations with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions is back on track. This is a national situation of global and epidemic proportions that needs all partners working together in a cohesive way. There is no use having a budget if people will strike and we lose our productive capacity and competitiveness. In that spirit I wish all well at the social partnership talks.

Deputy Deirdre Clune: It is welcome news that the talks are back and hopefully we will not have the one-day strike next Monday. Apart from the chaos and inconvenience it would have caused, it would have sent out a very bad message from this country. It is one piece of good news today. I hope the strike can be averted because in this dire situation we do not need it. Everybody needs to pull together for the good of this country, which has a very bright future. I am very confident. We have, and will continue to have, a strong and educated workforce, which has always been our strength. In latter years matters have slipped considerably and how we move forward from this point is very important for all of us. The budget, to be announced in less than two weeks’ time, has been described as a mini budget, an emergency budget, the 2009 budget and the 2008 budget. I agree with what Deputy Gilmore said this morning. It is our fourth attempt to address the deteriorating economic situation. This morning the Minister of State, Deputy Curran mentioned that Deputy Kenny had sought targets. I was here this morning and Deputy Kenny asked the Taoiseach what figures he was aiming at in the budget. The Taoiseach should know. Is it the deficit to be 9.5% , 10% or 11%? The parameters within which the Government will frame the budget must be set out at this stage. I accept the Taoiseach’s statement that Governments set budgets and they will do it here on 7 April, but the Opposition has been asked to contribute and engage in the debate and all parties are very willing to do that. However we need to know exactly what we are dealing with. We need to know the figures and the parameters within which the Minister for Finance will set out his budget. That is the point that was made this morning. Deputy Bruton wrote to the 682 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Minister 11 or 12 days ago asking the projected tax returns and GDP, and has not even received an acknowledgement. The Opposition has not received those figures, yet we are expected to come up with innovative ideas that will help the Minister. We are in a very difficult emergency situation and the Government needs to engage with the Opposition. Many people on both sides of the Houses have something to contribute. Many people on this side of the House who have been a long time in politics and feel very passionately about their country have very positive contributions to make and I would have thought it would be in the Minister’s interest to share the information he has to facilitate the Opposition. That debate has been ongoing this morning and yesterday in this House. The Minister mentioned banks. Until we get the banks back on track, nothing will be right. We need a structure with good and bad banks. The Minister is correct that not all assets are toxic and will be written off. Some have value, for example lands with planning permission. With our projected population growth the time will come again when those assets are of a value. We need to separate the good and bad banks. Many proposals have this theme of separating good and bad assets to let the banks get on with the business of providing mortgages and lending to and supporting small businesses, which are suffering badly. It makes sense to support and protect existing jobs rather than creating new jobs. The Minister made the same point. Perhaps we should sing from the same hymn sheet in many cases.

Deputy John Curran: Deputy Clune is closer to this side.

Deputy Deirdre Clune: The Ta´naiste’s recent decision to divert 25% of funding from the Skillnets programme makes no sense. It will be debated again and hopefully we will have the chance to do so next week through questions the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employ- ment. Diverting 25% of the Skillnets programme funding to FA´ S makes no sense. Skillnets is very valuable. It supports employers and employees in developing skills. It is a network from which employers and employees can benefit. It does very valuable work on the ground. Why not extend it to the unemployed as well as the employed rather than abandoning it and taking funds from it? Protecting existing jobs and keeping people in employment is an essential part of the way forward. I hope the budget will contain a very strong statement on how we are moving forward as a nation. The EU has given us until 2013 to come back within a 3% deficit. We need a broad vision of where we are going as a country. There are many opportunities, particularly for our exporters in international trade. That has been and will continue to be very valuable for us. The cost of our exports has increased because of the value of sterling but also because we have become uncompetitive. Our competitiveness has slipped badly in OECD ratings and issues such as efficiencies in our public services and local authority charges need to be addressed. Ireland is an expensive place to do business. Local authority charges have escalated, for example water charges have increased enormously. Anybody in business knows one is charged for water in and water out. Meanwhile there is the frustration of hearing that 50% of water is leaking away, literally going down the drain. These are the inefficiencies that drive people who are trying to do business crazy. The water system sums it up. It is totally inefficient. Electricity charges are soaring. We have the second highest electricity charges in Europe and that needs to be addressed. We had the good news last week of the \110 million for the interconnector. That should help towards developing renewables but we need investment in our electricity grid. We need to map out how we will reach our target of 40% renewables in the energy sector by 2020, 11 years from now. That is important for the country’s future. Investment in broadband is needed. Last week, Eircom announced it had no intention of 683 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Deirdre Clune.] investing in next generation broadband, NGN, yet it is essential for a small open economy such as ours that depends on international trading to introduce NGN. The education system is important. Our workers of the future must have the necessary skills. The National Competitiveness Council recently produced a report addressing how important education will be and highlighting the reduction in the numbers taking mathematics in our schools. Insufficient numbers of students are taking higher level maths for the leaving certificate. This subject feeds into science, engineering and IT disciplines and financial services. The broad thrust of the economy will depend on these sectors to get us to 2013 and beyond. Invest- ment is needed in this sectors. It is often bandied around that, in times of crisis, actions can be taken and issues addressed which would not normally be addressed. Let us turn our education system up side down and focus on what the economy needs. This was done in Finland and Sweden. It was recognised that students did not have the educational qualifications needed to drive the economy. There was significant investment in mathematics and the sciences and they were focused on ensuring that the skills necessary for the economy to grow were available. The budget on 7 April will be painful but I hope the series of tax increases and spending cuts, which will hit everybody and families, in particular, will be equitable. The Minister should make a statement about how we will move forward and outline a plan or framework for competing on international markets, which, heretofore, was our strength. We need to get back to that position.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor: I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate, with 13 days to go to the budget, which will be announced during the week of my birthday. I hope, therefore, it will not be all doom and gloom. I have had a sense all week of the doom and gloom everywhere. However, I met Deputy Charles Flanagan on my way to the Chamber who said he has been promoting the notion of us having a happy week. Perhaps he is correct. We have all been cheered up and buoyed by the good news that has broken through the doom and gloom. I am reminded of this by the Minister of State, Deputy Curran. Bernard Dunne cheered us all up late last Saturday night and, earlier that evening, I was in a pub in Tallaght watching Ireland narrowly defeat Wales for a great victory. Those two results cheered us all up significantly. As I went about my business on Saturday and Sunday, people were buoyed by what had occurred in Clondalkin, Tallaght and throughout the country. We need more of this. I will attend the new Tallaght stadium on Friday night to watch Shamrock Rovers play Derry City and, on Saturday, I hope to attend Croke Park where my Tallaght neighbour, Robbie Keane, will lead out the Ireland team to play Bulgaria. We need these outlets because many bad news stories are breaking As we all go about our business, we are aware people are worried and living in fear because they do not know what will happen. There is a great deal of speculation and many commentators are giving different views. I recall having to emigrate at a time when information about Government finances was not made public. Thank God for George Lee. A great deal of information is being put out by the media, which must do their job. However, it worries people and they are concerned about what will happen. I echo the comments of previous speakers that whatever happens on 7 April, the budget should be about fairness and equity. The Minister of State shares my commitment to social inclusion. I said repeatedly at the time that large boats were rising that the little boats had to be remembered, but this is absolutely the case as the large boats struggle. I am a member of the executive of the Tallaght drugs task force and there is great concern about services. All of us are receiving many representations. I attended a presentation by the Carers Association earlier and I met the association’s representatives in Tallaght last Monday morning. Everybody has a case to make and I am trying to 684 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) listen to all the groups, which all want to be the priority, but the Government must strike a balance. However, we cannot neglect the groups looking after vulnerable people, including the drugs programmes. There is significant speculation about social welfare payments but circumstances would have to be bad if we were not to continue to look after those in receipt of such payments, as Fianna Fa´il has always done. Vulnerable people will always need this assistance. I was made redundant three times earlier in my career and I signed on in my local social welfare office. I know, therefore, how difficult it can be. Everybody, including social welfare recipients, is under significant pressure and everybody is feeling the recession. However, the unemployed, the unemploy- able and those with disabilities will worry even more. All Members have commented strongly on the need to look after those in poverty and, as vice-chairman of the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs, I have raised this issue on a number of occasions. With all the competing demands, it is important that this vulnerable group in society continues to receive Government aid and I hope the Minister will take that into account. I represent Dublin South-West and I live in Tallaght, where 7,261 people were signing on in January, according to the most recent figures. Whatever about the doom and gloom and the need to correct the Exchequer finances and look forward, it must be remembered that at some point people must be able to see a light at the end of the tunnel and the beginning of a recovery. Even though it is gloomy currently, I hope everyone in Government strives for that. People need to continue about their business spending the money they have in the shops and on entertainment and leading as normal a life as they can. I have lived through previous recessions and recovery was always important. It is always about getting out of the recession and working through it. Preserving and creating jobs, even though that is difficult and demanding, must continue to be the core principle underpinning what the Government is doing. The Minister of State referred to what has been done in America and different approaches. I received a letter from someone, who probably wrote to every other Member, saying we needed a Barack Obama but that person received a reply saying he probably would not be elected.

Deputy Joe Costello: Not in Tallaght.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor: Without being insular, we need to focus on our own situation. We are a small economy and we need to be focused. I am not afraid to say from the Govern- ment benches that we need to continue to give people confidence. There is a sense that nothing will be built if any money is to be found. I heard a good debate on radio this 1 o’clock morning in which a contributor said that we should continue to build infrastructure. I do not want to be parochial but all the local Deputies have campaigned in the Tallaght region for the building programme at the Holy Rosary Family national school, which is 25 years old. I raised this matter on the Adjournment a couple of weeks ago. The school, which deals with a mixed international community, is still working in prefabricated buildings. I have said to the Minister for Education and Science that if he has money, he should be able to spend it on programmes such as this school because that creates confidence, jobs and infrastructure. I would hate to look back on this period in ten or 20 years’ time, if we are still around, and say that, whatever about struggling through the post-boom period, we did not make efforts to continue to build for the future. I hope those kinds of projects continue to get the attention they deserve. The best way to deal with poverty has always been, down the generations, through employment. While I do not wish to put any pressure on the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, it, above all the other Departments, faces a serious challenge. We cannot give 685 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Charlie O’Connor.] up or surrender. We must continue to create jobs all around the country. I will make the case for Tallaght as strongly as anybody else but we need jobs in Ireland. I hope that whatever happens on 7 April the budget will take account of some of the issues I have raised.

Deputy Joe Costello: It is difficult to follow Deputy O’Connor talking about Tallaght. I will try, however, to keep away from my own patch in Dublin Central, north of the Liffey.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor: I was being national.

Deputy Joe Costello: My area has high unemployment and is disadvantaged in respect of housing, education for special needs and so on. It needs as much money as can possibly be injected into its infrastructure and facilities. This is effectively the third budget in six months, following one last October and the pension levy which was to take a further \2 billion out of the economy. This new budget is to take anything up to \6 billion out of its expenditure. These are substantial sums of money. While I understand the Government’s five year strategy, it will take approximately \16 billion from the taxpayer and out of capital projects. This will have a major impact on retail. If one takes money out of the economy, it is difficult to stimulate it and if one takes money out of taxpayers’ pockets, it is difficult for them to spend. We must be careful to avoid deflation. We are breaching the terms of the Stability and Growth Pact by a massive 6.5% at least, bringing us to three times the 3% normally allowed under the EU legislation and agreements. We have been allowed to do this on a temporary basis and are going from 9% this year to a colossal 11% next year and then we are supposed to row back to the normal 3% in 2013. It is difficult to see that happening without employment taking a massive hit. Already 354,000 people are unemployed and the Taoiseach says the figure will be 400,000 by the end of the year but it could well be more, especially with a budget like this, coming after the previous budget and the pension levy. We must focus on the sector of greatest employment, the small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs, which employ approximately 1 million people. A total of 64% of the people employed in the private sector work in SMEs, while 50% of all those employed are in SMEs. A survey last December found that the banks had refused credit to 58% of SMEs. Another survey last month found that figure had dropped to 49% but that many of those who had applied for credit in December had not bothered to apply again because the banks had indicated that they would not get it. The lifeblood of the economy is being starved of credit. The credit crunch is increasing, six months after the October budget. How can the Govern- ment guarantee the banks to the tune of \500 billion, inject \7.5 billion into the main Irish banks and still not ensure that the banks will respond to the needs of SMEs? Why have a Minister for Finance if he is not going to crack the whip and tell the banks that they were recapitalised and guaranteed to support in every way possible the stabilisation of the economy through the sector that is crying out for funding to keep it going? That is the sector that is haemorrhaging jobs. Once again, the banks will betray the country. If it does nothing else, the Government must sort out that situation. The European Union foresaw this problem. At the summit last October, when we were putting together a budget, the European Union put \30 billion aside to provide continuous funding for the SMEs in the 27 member states. The Irish banks refused to go near that money until the middle of this month, after the SMEs howled at them for it. They did not apply for it before now because the margins were not good enough for them. They were not the exorbitant margins they were used to getting. That is outrageous. This month, the European Central Bank has reduced interest rates by 65%. Anglo Irish Bank has reduced its rates by 16%, the Bank 686 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) of Ireland by 21% and National Irish Bank by 5%, but Ulster Bank has not reduced its rates. The cost, however, of borrowing money through the European Central Bank is 65% and the interest rate is down by that amount. There is no sense of reality in the banks. Do they realise we are in a crisis? They operate as though it were the good old days of the Celtic tiger. We have seen this already in their considerable remuneration and pension packages. That cosy cartel has still not come out of its closet into the limelight of the real world. They still operate in virtual reality rather than in the reality of the situation. I offer only one recommendation to the Government, namely, it should tell the banks they have failed us. The private banks have failed us. We now have our own nationalised bank, Anglo Irish Bank, which should become the State corporate bank, used to ensure that the Irish economy is not betrayed again, and to draw down money. Specifically, it should be given the portfolio that once belonged to the ACC and the ICC, both support banks for the Irish economy which served it well. We now have a nationalised State bank. Let us use it and ensure that never again will the Irish economy and small and medium enterprises be bled of the funds they are crying out for in order to keep people in employment and to stabilise this economy once again.

Deputy Dara Calleary: I welcome the opportunity to speak on the budgetary situation ahead of 7 April. There are several areas in which I have an interest and I would like the Minister for Finance to address these on that day. Some involve cuts and others involve packages that might stimulate activity. Our most important need at present is to reduce costs right across the economy and to continue to do so. Some areas are within Government control. For example, it can reduce the cost of employing people by reducing the current level of employers’ PRSI. In that way we can stimulate more employment and give employers a better incentive to hire people. There is a commitment in the programme for Government to reduce by 25% the red tape burden on small business. In the current climate let us be more ambitious and aggressive and increase our ambition to make that, ultimately, a 50% reduction. In recent years this House has put in place a number of organisations, such as the National Employment Rights Authority, NERA, and other bodies that currently inspect Irish business as if it now operated in the same way it did some years ago. It does not. The majority of small and medium enterprises are struggling to keep doors open and can do without red tape being forced down their throats at the current time. Let us call off those inspectors. I respectfully propose they might be better employed now in addressing the social welfare backlog and there might be a better transition of employees between Departments to address current demands. That is an action the Government might pursue. Public procurement is another area within Government control. In spite of the cuts and the curtailment in capital and current expenditure, the Government is still the biggest buyer of services and goods in this economy. The rules, however, curtail the involvement of small business and crucify it, preventing it from getting access to that market. Whether one is a builder, a printer or an office supplies company, if one is small one is not wanted as far as Government procurement is concerned. To protect jobs and provide greater competition and a more local response to local situations, we must review this. I ask the Minister to do so ahead of 7 April. The issue of stimulus is being discussed and, although we are not in a position, either as a current economy or as a style of economy, to take US-style actions, we can examine a number of issues. Again, these involve a change to the way we do things. Now is the time to change. For instance, is there a need for the State to own school buildings? That system served the country well since the foundation of the State but there is a backlog of schools to be built or refurbished. The construction industry is at a low in terms of activity but also, and more 687 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Dara Calleary.] important, it is at a low in terms of pricing. The industry has a substantial landbank. Two and two equal four. If we review our rules and open up our school building programme to a buy and rent scheme, the State would not have to lay out significant expenditure up-front. Through a good rental agreement, which could be very easily negotiated at present, we can get good schools, stimulate activity and address the difficulties in building schools. We must think outside the box. Solutions that worked in this country over the past 70 years, or that may have served rather than worked, will not work in the current climate. Concerning stimulus, we must address the concerns of the motor industry. We are not bailing out big car dealers but are bailing out the 50,000 people who depend on those dealers for their jobs, the mechanics and those just above the minimum wage. There are a number of cost neutral proposals we can implement, such as revising the VAT system. The low direct tax model was a model of its time during a period of surpluses and economic growth. It is no longer appropriate for us. Everybody is braced, perhaps not quite ready, but expecting large increases. However, we must be careful that we do not burden with further large increases the middle sector of those who pay tax. The sector that gets paid between \50,000 and \80,000 gets very little support from the State but it pays a lot of the State’s bills. Surely there is ability within the Department of Finance to devise models that would place the impact and the burden on those on higher incomes and, on this occasion, probably also on those on lower incomes. The ongoing drive to reduce costs is paramount. The cost of food is beginning to fall as are costs of other necessary household items, and this must continue. Regarding social welfare reform, a \21 billion budget cannot be exempt from examination in the current time. However, there are ways to do this. The recent initiative on tackling cross-Border fraud shows our social welfare system has grown fat. There is a lot of room to cut back on that fat before we start tackling direct rates. For example, every case should be examined to ascertain if the need that originally applied still applies and whether the total benefit being paid to specific households from social welfare payments is disproportionately high. I make a special plea for self-employed people who in the past five or six years employed people and paid taxes and PRSI and who now, through no fault of their own, find themselves out of business. They are not eligible for social welfare. They have paid their share to the economy and now at their time of need the economy should support them. Concerning jobseeker’s payments and benefits, currently many people are being forced onto that payment who would like to work in their communities and have the talents and skills to do so. This is the area of responsibility of the Minister of State, Deputy John Curran, and he will be well aware there are many organisations who could well do with those talents and skills. Surely we can marry the two needs in some shape or form and get those people working for the benefit of their communities and in voluntary activity, while being in receipt of a State payment. As sure as night follows day, the time will come again when we will be begging for volunteers. That will be the case when we return, as we hope, to a situation of high employment. Another social welfare issue that must be addressed is the payment of benefits directly to bank accounts. This encourages fraud and so-called welfare tourism and should be reviewed as a matter of urgency. In reviewing it, we will support our smaller post offices and social welfare offices around the country. We must also examine our own operations in this House as we approach 7 April. There was a campaign for many years to link our salaries with those of Principal Officers, but that would take the matter outside our control. That situation should be examined and if there is a need to suspend that link for the next number of years and to take reductions, that should be done. 688 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

The issue of Ministers of State is being considered at present as are issues of expenses and allowances, including those paid to committee chairmen, vice-chairmen and convenors. These must all be reviewed between now and 7 April. The very legitimacy of this institution and of our democracy is being scrutinised at present and we must review and protect it. The Government must be congratulated for introducing the cap on salaries in the banking sector. It should be extended across the public sector in both semi-State and State companies, to include contracted employees, who are either independent contractors or direct employees. If a person is paid no more than \500,000 to run a bank, then they do not need to be paid any more than that to run any company, to present a radio or television show or to do any other job paid out of the public purse no matter what the shape or form of an organisation funded by the public purse. It is essential that on 7 April we protect the vulnerable. People like those we met this morning, the carers and people providing support to those with Alzheimer’s, are not able to respond in the way we can respond to this economic challenge. The Minister needs to show a path of recovery to the country and I am confident he will do so. He needs to show that there is a plan at the end of all this, that the shoots will grow again and that we will be in a position to begin to lead this country out of the current challenges. I am hopeful from his statements to date that he will do that and I hope he takes some of those ideas on board.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan: Ireland is having a deeper recession than any other eurozone country. The economy shrank by about 2.5% in 2008 and may contract by another 6.5% this year. Unemployment has jumped from 5% to 10.4% which is a faster rise than in America. Ireland’s banks are still in a state of turmoil and there has not been the expected major restructuring of the banks when the House issued the guarantee before last Christmas. As is the case with Anglo Irish Bank, the same people are running the banks as were doing so before. The major restructuring did not take place and, as has been mentioned by previous speakers, the revenue flow has not been made available to small and medium business. This is a significant issue because no matter what the banks say, it is not business as usual. The rising unemployment figure which could definitely go to 400,000 by the end of the year — I hope it will not — affects communities across the country. We will be facing the major issue of the public finances on 7 April when the Government will introduce an emergency budget. This is the fourth attempt in the past year to deal with the issue of the public finances. It may be helpful to take an overview of what has happened in the past 20 years. Between 1990 and 2007, the economy grew by an annual average of 6.5%. Ireland’s expansion had two phases with the first being led by exports and powered by foreign direct investment and which ended in 2002. This phase was also powered by EU Structural Funds as a significant contribution from 1994 to 1999. This pump-primed the economy and led to major infrastructural projects for which the EU has never been given full recognition because politicians were not too forthcoming in acknowledging that this money came from EU funds. In that period, mainly American foreign companies such as Intel, Hewlett Packard, Apple and others, provided considerable capital and know-how. They provided the well-paid jobs that contributed so much revenue to the economy. At one stage, Dell was contributing approximately 10% of our tax revenue. During that time, there was a sale of State assets and tax amnesties were made available and which yielded a lot of money into the State coffers. The economy was going well but we were not setting down conditions when we had the opportunity to do so and which may have been able to help us now in this hour of crisis. I acknowledge the international crisis has had an effect on our economy but the Government has been in power for 12 years and it cannot escape responsibility for what has happened. 689 Message from 25 March 2009. Seanad E´ ireann

[Deputy Jimmy Deenihan.]

Among the reasons we attracted foreign capital investment was our young, educated, English-speaking, low cost workforce. Our State grants were very generous with a corporate tax of 10% and we were also the only English-speaking country in the eurozone. All these factors came together to make Ireland a very competitive and attractive country in which to invest.

I visited Silicon Valley in America in 1991 when I was promoting County Kerry. I explained that it cost approximately £6 an hour to employ a worker in Ireland. This was a far more competitive rate than the American rate at the time. I was in Silicon Valley last year and last March it cost $28 an hour to hire a worker in Ireland, $6 an hour in Poland and $26 in Silicon Valley. It was more expensive to employ someone here than in Silicon Valley. America is currently about 20% more competitive in employment rates than Ireland and this is posing major problems.

The other aspect of the Irish economy from 2002 onwards has been the building boom. This was fuelled by lower interest rates due to our membership of the eurozone. This is one of the advantages of being in Europe but on the other hand, it fuelled a building boom. Capital gains tax was reduced from 40% to 20%. At the time I suggested it should have been reduced from 40% to 30%, which would have been accepted by everyone. This fuelled speculation because people were making small amounts of money and moving property very fast. They were buying off the plans and before the house or apartment was built it could have changed ownership two or three times. People were making their margins. Every house built yielded about \100,000 to the Revenue and in one year a total of 90,000 units was built which equated to a total of \9 billion. This year the total might not reach 15,000 or 20,000 units so this will leave a gap of \7 billion. When the rainbow coalition left Government in 1997 there was a budget surplus but a decade later we have a deficit, which is not acceptable.

In that period under the captaincy of Charlie McCreevy who was Minister for Finance from 1997 to 2004, the size of the public service was increased. The Minister always said that when he had money he would spend it and when he did not have it he would not spend. This was his philosophy and there was a laissez-faire attitude to the economy at that time. The notion that fiscal policy should lean against the business cycle was scorned by the then Minister. Those actions in the past are not a help today. Good people applied for jobs in the public service and it is unfair that they are being attacked and targeted. It is not their fault they applied for jobs by means of public competition. However, at the same time a bureaucracy was being con- structed without any hint of reform.

People are questioning our ability to dig ourselves out of our financial hole. The yield of 6% on ten-year Government bonds is way above the rates in Germany, where it is 3.2%. Both countries borrow in euro so the gap between the two is a rough guide to how Ireland is viewed by investors.

Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.

Message from Seanad E´ ireann. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Seanad E´ ireann has passed the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2009, without amendment

690 Priority 25 March 2009. Questions

Message from Select Committee. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Select Committee on Finance and the Public Service has completed its consideration of the Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill 2008 and has made amendments thereto.

Ceisteanna — Questions (Resumed).

Priority Questions.

————

School Accommodation. 36. Deputy Brian Hayes asked the Minister for Education and Science the estimated cost of the rental of temporary accommodation in 2009; the number of units and their location in which in excess of \50,000 has been spent in rental costs to date by his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12287/09]

39. Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn asked the Minister for Education and Science if he proposes to recommend to the boards of management of primary schools, who have contracts with prefab building suppliers, the rent of which is paid by his Department, that they seek to have the terms of the contract reviewed in order to reduce the rental cost to his Department and so release resources for other sectors of his estimate or alternatively, to secure savings that do not damage the delivery of educational services, as was discussed recently at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Education and Science with officials from his Department on 12 March 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12336/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I propose to take Questions Nos. 36 and 39 together. The estimated rental cost for temporary accommodation for primary and post-primary schools in 2009 will be approximately \48 million. The rental of accommodation relates not only to prefabricated accommodation, but also to a number of permanent buildings which are used as schools. I have asked my Department to compile a list as requested by the Deputy of all schools where the cumulative cost of renting prefabricated accommodation exceeds \50,000. I will forward this information to the Deputy shortly. Demand for additional accommodation in schools has risen significantly over the past number of years with the appointment of 6,000 extra teachers in the primary sector alone since 2002. The overall policy goal is to ensure the highest standard of permanent accommodation for all schools. However, in the context of a rapidly increasing school population, the necessity to put additional accommodation in place in a short timeframe and competing pressure on the capital budget, it will continue to be necessary to use temporary accommodation to meet the needs of schools in some circumstances. This is because competing priorities mean that it will not always be possible to have a permanent accommodation solution in place in a short timeframe. The Department will continue to provide funding for such prefabricated accommodation and the decision on whether to rent or purchase will depend on the likely length of time it will be required. In all cases, the approach will be to ensure best value for money. Following an analysis of costs by my Department, it is now the policy to purchase rather than rent temporary 691 Priority 25 March 2009. Questions

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] accommodation where the need is likely to last for more than three years. This will reduce the incidence of long-term rental of prefabricated classrooms. Separately, as indicated by my officials at a recent meeting of the Joint Committee on Edu- cation and Science, my Department has already commenced a review of this area and has engaged a firm of chartered quantity surveyors to develop new procedures and systems for the provision of temporary accommodation with a view to achieving best value for money. This firm of specialists has already commenced and will work in close co-operation with the planning and building unit of the Department. The review will involve new contractual terms to incorporate buy-out and relocation options to cater for individual local circumstances. It will also involve an assessment of all existing rental contracts between schools and suppliers with a view to identifying action to reduce overall rental costs for the Department. The Deputies will appreciate that there is a substantial amount of work involved in this approach. However, I have asked my Department to give this work priority and it is envisaged that it will be completed before the end of this year. In the meantime, where the Department has given approval to a school to rent temporary accommodation, the school authorities must seek competitive quotes from suppliers. This will allow schools to take advantage of the best value available in the current market.

Deputy Brian Hayes: I am disappointed that the Minister could not inform me of the total number of prefabs in the country where his Department has spent over \50,000. The fact that he cannot even give an estimate of that speaks volumes for the sense of chaos that exists within the Department. At a time when commercial and residential rents are falling through the floor, he is effectively proposing to spend the same amount of money this year as last on renting prefab buildings. Never mind the consultants’ report and what they produce at the end of this year. Would he not now consider a rent control policy under which he would immediately inform the 26 suppliers up and down the country that he wants to renegotiate directly with them on behalf of the schools in question and in terms of the amount of money, \50 million this year, the State is giving to them, given the extraordinary crisis facing the country and the challenges for his Department’s budget in using resources for front line services?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I was not long in this office before Deputy Quinn first brought this matter to my attention and I was concerned at the level of funding being allocated to that particular area. I was of the view that it needed to be restructured and reviewed. I am doing precisely what Deputy Hayes is asking me to do. This group of experts is in contact with the 26 suppliers and looking at the length of time prefabs have been rented and the amount of money being paid with a view to carrying out a review of long-term rentals and deciding how much more appropriate levels may be achieved, as well as facilitating the Department in taking some of this accommodation into direct ownership. I want to stress, however, that, given what has happened over the past number of years, we can never reach a point where temporary accommodation will not be needed. That is a fact of life. If one looks at the developing areas around this city, one finds there will be a demand. There was a presentation this morning showing how such demand may be anticipated and met. The Deputy will be aware, for example, that temporary recognition for a school may be forthcoming if there are 17 pupils on the roll and full recognition may be granted after three years if there are 54 pupils. However, in the interim period, temporary accommodation must be provided. 692 Priority 25 March 2009. Questions

The Deputy will also be aware that I have put a system in place which gives schools that have received approval for a prefab the option of putting a permanent structure in place. As a matter of interest, some 52 projects have been completed in small schools in this area and 172 projects are under construction at present. It is, therefore, a system that is actually taking off.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: This has been the subject of extensive discussion at our committee and I will not repeat what was said. In the real marketplace that is modern Ireland today, in every shopping mall and office block, tenants are demanding that landlords renegotiate their contracts or they will leave. That type of initiative should not be excluded from the public sphere either. The boards of management are the contractors with the suppliers, not the Mini- ster, although he pays the bill. If he was to incentivise boards of management by getting them to negotiate a 15% reduction, it would amount to a saving of approximately \7.2 million. He could allow them to keep 40% while the Department took the balance of approximately \5.9 million over time. It is very much a buyers’ market, but the boards of management have to be incentivised. If there is nothing in it for them and the Minister is paying the Bill, they will sit on their hands.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: There are two issues here. The cost of temporary accommodation has actually come down. It is now less than \100,000, when four or five months ago it was over \120,000.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: Is that for new contracts?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: That is for new accommodation, and it is falling further. I agree with the Deputy and I am looking for better value for money. Regarding the expert group, I want to get full control of this so that I can have a total assessment of what exactly we can do. The consultants are experts in the field and will be looking for the precise value for money the Deputy is seeking. I want to let them get on with their work. My officials met them again recently to emphasise the urgency involved. If we are renting particular accommodation for ten years, for example, there is no reason that we should be paying any more for that. These are questions we will be taking up with the suppliers and we will be seeking to ensure that we get that value for money.

Deputy Brian Hayes: With the greatest degree of respect to the Minister, the questions relate to now and the scarcity of resources in all Departments, as he well knows. Why do we have to wait until later this year for a bunch of consultants to tell us something we already know?

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: Exactly.

Deputy Brian Hayes: We know these contracts should be renegotiated now. Would the Mini- ster consider, while in discussion with his officials, effectively setting his own maximum rent control on prefabricated units? I understand he has the power to do this. There are 26 suppliers and the Minister ultimately has to pay the bill. I believe efficiencies can be achieved here; money can be saved and used for more useful purposes within the Department. Will the Minister inform the House to whom the consultancy contract was given and how much it will cost the Department this year? Is it not the case that this work could have been done within the Department or alternatively between the Department and the OPW, which has particular knowledge and expertise in this area?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I do not know this, and I would prefer to give the Deputy accurate information on the name of the company as well as the costs involved. The Deputy asked me 693 Priority 25 March 2009. Questions

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] about the purchase and getting a proper pricing structure. I am already doing that. There has been a significant reduction in the price. We are now forcing every——

Deputy Brian Hayes: On the rent.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: In the purchase. We will purchase anything we have for over three years rather than rent. That is a complete reversal of the policy we had.

Deputy Brian Hayes: What about the rent?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: We are getting value for money and are negotiating the prices down- wards. The figure has gone from \120 million to under \100 million and I hope it will continue to fall. I accept the criticism made. Something happened in the past and a series of rentals developed. It is important for me to get an aggregate and an appropriate response to see the extent of the rental and the cost and how I can do deals with these suppliers and say we have more than paid for these prefabricated buildings. The indications I am getting back from the negotiations going on are that we will be very successful in achieving what the Deputy and Deputy Quinn are trying to achieve.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: Time is tight and we can pursue this later but I get the impression there are two players now. The formal client is the board of management which signs the contract and with whom the relationship with the supplier exists. I suggest the Minister should forget about the consultants. Can we have no more government by consultancy? Can we simply have political decisions saying to boards of management that they are empowered to renegotiate the rental circumstances, because they will vary around the country, and that if they do so, they will get to keep 40% of the saving they negotiate? Incidentally, it is a wonderful capitalist idea which makes sense in these straitened times, otherwise boards of management will not act. In broad figures, the Minister will save 60% of that 15% reduction which could possibly be negotiated. If the Department of Education and Science does it, the Minister will not see a single reduction this year.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I take issue with that because we are seeing significant reductions already.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: In new contracts.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The Deputy must understand boards of management are there on a voluntary basis. This practice of rented accommodation has built up over the years. Boards of management did not say to companies they had been paying rent for a certain number of years and that they should be in full ownership now.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: Empower them now.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Once and for all, I am putting a structure in place so that, into the future, those we rent for a significant amount of time will come into our ownership, that we cease paying rent and that we get much better value for money. By the end of the year, I will have a comprehensive programme in place which will save the type of significant funds about which the Deputy spoke.

694 Priority 25 March 2009. Questions

FA´ S Training Programmes. 37. Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn asked the Minister for Education and Science if he will offer first refusal to the further education sector, including the vocational education committees and the institutes of technology, to provide the 51,000 training places for the unemployed announced recently by the Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12335/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Deputy Sea´n Haughey): There are no plans to alter the present arrangements in regard to the provision of education and training courses for recently unemployed workers. FA´ S, in addition to its own delivery of courses, already contracts with other education and training providers for the provision of relevant courses. It should be noted that the additional places referred to by the Deputy are being provided by FA´ S from within existing resources. It is open to vocational education committees and the institutes of technology to bid for the provision of appropriate courses. At present, VECs already provide courses on behalf of FA´ S under the one step up initiative. Examples include the skills for work programme delivered under the workplace basic education fund which provides education and training in basic skills at FETAC level 3. VECs also provide courses for participants in FA´ S-run community education schemes under the return to education programme. In addition, VECs provide courses under the learning at work and competency development programmes. In particular, the Department of Education and Science participates in the upskilling co- ordination group chaired by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and comprising representatives of key training providers including FA´ S, Skillnets, Engineers Ireland, the county enterprise boards, the VECs, the institutes of technology and the Higher Education Authority. The purpose of the group is to discuss any issues concerning the provision of training that arise among the State’s key training providers. It aims to improve interagency co-operation, facilitate the exchange of information on operational and policy aspects and the avoid- ance of duplication. It also aims to ensure that the impact realised from the State’s investment in education and training is maximised. In the broader context, the Department of Education and Science liaises with the Depart- ment of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with a view to improving the co-ordination of our efforts and facilitating better co-operation and collaboration at local and regional level among the relevant education and training providers. All of these organisations are working together at both national and local level to ensure that both the education and training sectors respond in an optimal way to the difficult situation we currently face.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: I thank the Minister of State for his reply but remind him that since the last general election, 200,000 extra people have gone on the live register, some for the first time. What he describes is business as usual when we, effectively, had full employment. If FA´ S has the capacity for an extra 51,000, then there is something seriously wrong with the organisation. We know from the quality of some of the back to work courses it offered in the past that they are substandard to meet the needs of the type of people who have been high flyers with SR Technics or elsewhere and who want to go to an institute of technology to get computer skills or otherwise. The 51,000 places will, I estimate, cost of the order of an extra \70 million. If the figure is of that magnitude, will the Minister of State make a clear commitment to this House that he will not assign it to FA´ S to subcontract out to somebody else, including many private contractors whose quality is dubious, but to the institutes of technology and other bodies under his 695 Priority 25 March 2009. Questions

[Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn.] remit in education to provide new types of courses for recently unemployed people who do not want to do the traditional back to work courses which will not meet their needs?

Deputy Sea´n Haughey: I accept what the Deputy said about the challenges we face at this time because of the rise in unemployment. Further and higher education have a role to play as do FA´ S and the training agencies generally. The 51,000 places announced by FA´ S are part of the overall provision of 79,000 places provided by FA´ S training services. This has come about in the main due to a change in the model of training provision internally in FA´ S which has resulted in maximising existing resources and methodologies to deliver an increased volume of service to the number of people announced. These challenges in the provision of further education and training and higher education generally are recognised by the Department of Education and Science. As I said, it is open to vocational education committees and the institutes of technology to bid for the provision of appropriate courses. There is a tendering process in place. At the end of the day, a tendering process gets value for money, of which we must be conscious.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: I thought that when the Minister of State was appointed to the two Departments that his primary responsibility would be to cement the bridge between the Departments of Education and Science and Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Part of the task at this moment of crisis is to capture as many resources as possible for the control of the education system. FA´ S simply cannot do this job, and I have been there. Anybody in FA´ S who is telling the Minister of State otherwise is telling the same kind of stories we got from FA´ S which led to recent upheavals in that organisation. There is under-capacity in the institutes of technology for courses which people recently unemployed want to attend. They do not want to go on a back to work course but want to upskill their IT skills in places of education like the institutes of technology. The fact the institutes of technology are free to bid means they are closed out. That is Civil Service speak for saying they did not win the contract. The Minister of State should assign half the 51,0000 places to the education sector without subcontracting and half to FA´ S and let them compete with each other. Let us see what the market says and to which the unemployed people sign up. I wager that they will go to the institutes of technology long before they go to——

Deputy Sea´n Haughey: I am responsible for the co-ordination of programme implementation across the Departments of Education and Science and Enterprise, Trade and Employment with the aim of progressing the lifelong learning agenda. In that regard, I ensured delivery to the target groups of relevant programmes across the two Departments and their relevant agencies and offices, including FA´ S. That was a mouthful. I accept my responsibilities.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: The Minister of State did not write his script.

Deputy Brian Hayes: Can the Minister of State run that by us again? We missed it.

Deputy Sea´n Haughey: My role is to co-ordinate between the two Departments for the first time, in a very significant way, the provision of education and training. I believe we are making progress in that regard through the upskilling co-ordination group, which meets several times a year. I believe, because of the scarce resources which we are experiencing at the present time that we are, slowly but surely, getting efficiency in the delivery of education and training programmes, the elimination of duplication and so forth. 696 Priority 25 March 2009. Questions

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: There are 200,000 extra people, some of whom have never been on the dole before.

Deputy Sea´n Haughey: That is recognised by the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Coughlan and by myself, as a Minister of State at the Depart- ments of Education and Enterprise, Trade and Employment with special responsibility for lifelong learning. We are constantly reviewing the situation, with a view to coming forward with new initiatives and, generally speaking, to try and get the best value for the scarce resources we have.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: The Minister of State will not get it from FA´ S.

Third Level Fees. 38. Deputy Brian Hayes asked the Minister for Education and Science if he plans to reintroduce third level fees in 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12288/09]

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The issue of the re-introduction of third level fees, to which the Deputy refers, should be viewed in the context of the wider funding of higher education. The Government is investing unprecedented levels of public funding in higher education. In 2008 some \2 billion was invested in our higher education sector. In contributing to the achievement of national policy goals for social and economic development, it can be anticipated that there will be continuing significant resource needs for the sector. Ireland’s higher education system currently has a relatively high dependence on the Exchequer as its principal source of revenue. It is appropriate, therefore, to raise questions around how future additional resource needs can be met and how our higher education institutions can be supported in their development ambitions through a widening of their non- Exchequer sources of income, including through a new form of student cost contribution. There are also equity grounds for arguing that those who benefit directly from higher education should be asked to contribute to the costs. As the Deputy will be aware, I am currently finalising a review of policy options regarding the introduction of a form of student contribution. There are many complex and competing considerations, including costs, affordability and value for money for the taxpayer, which will be taken into account by the Government in considering the available options. It is my intention to bring proposals to Government in the near future regarding the available options, including the issue of implementation. As the Deputy can appreciate, I do not wish to pre-empt any decisions of Government on these matters.

Deputy Brian Hayes: Is the Minister bringing proposals to the Cabinet next Tuesday? Can he confirm to the House whether it is his belief that a new funding scheme will be in place for the Autumn period of this year for new entrants to college? If a scheme is not in place, will those who will come into college next September or October as new entrants into the higher education system be part of the old funding system and not the new one? I do not want the Minister to comment on the clear, open trench warfare which currently exists between his Department and the Department of Finance. Can he put his preferred option on the record?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I have no specific date for brining the matter to Cabinet.

Deputy Brian Hayes: It will not be next Tuesday.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I will bring it very shortly. I want to finalise a number of issues regarding the finality of the report and I will put it before my Cabinet colleagues as soon as it is completed. That is the answer to the Deputy’s question. 697 Priority 25 March 2009. Questions

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.]

Regarding this matter, the Cabinet asked me to furnish it with a report on student commitment, which will look at fees, loans, a combination of the two, means testing and all the other issues. I will bring all of those to Cabinet so it can take an informed decision on the third level sector into the future and what the student contribution should or should not be. It is a matter Government can decide. As part of the norm, there will of course be interaction between the Department of Finance and the Department of Education and Science. To say that there is open warfare is untrue.

Deputy Brian Hayes: The Minister is spinning it that way.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: No, I am not. I am not spinning it at all. In fact, I have not discussed the matter with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan at all yet, in any detail, so there could not be any open warfare between the two of us. My job is to provide the report for Government and then let it take a decision on when or if any fees or a combination of loans and fees should be introduced. I have personal views and have expressed those quite openly. I believe there should be a contribution from the students and I am delighted that Deputy Hayes’ party is in agreement. I thank him for his document which is helpful in looking at the overall issue.

Deputy Brian Hayes: I will send the Minister a bill for the final product.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I am glad to see there is a divide between Deputy Hayes’ party and the Labour Party.

Deputy Brian Hayes: There are various views here on this matter, it is what is called democracy. Can the Minister put the position for new entrants to the systems from this autumn on the record? What is his considered view as to whether fees will be in place for new entrants to the system? As a means of not making a dog’s dinner of this, I ask the Minister and Cabinet not to make a decision on the funding issue until such time as we get the report of higher level review group which is looking into higher level education. I speak here in a constructive manner. We cannot decouple the issues of funding and reform. Both are part of the same response we must make collectively to improve quality and standards in higher education. While it is useful to have a debate at this stage, I ask the Minister to wait to make a decision until such time as we have the reform document. On 11 August last the Minister said he would support the initiative of a forensic audit of third level spending before making any decision on funding, in terms of the university and institutes of technology sector. Is that still his position? He also said recently that he rejected the notion that senior academics and university heads should be getting more than Secretarys General in the various Departments. Is that still his view? I understand from the HEA that it has no intention of involving itself in cutting excessive pay which may well be awarded to university heads. What is the position of Government on that issue?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I will clarify the last section of the Deputy’s contribution because what he said is not what I actually said. On the “Morning Ireland” radio programme I said that certain people in universities were receiving a salary which was on a par with Secretarys General and that they should follow the example set by Secretarys General in terms of pay. That is exactly what I said. There is also a separate issue whereby payments may have been made to certain individuals within the university sector which were not appropriate. The Higher 698 Capitation 25 March 2009. Grants

Education Authority is in consultation with those universities regarding this matter. I hope that clarifies the issue. Deputy Hayes asked about reform in general. I can understand where he is coming from. I have asked the strategy group to look at a whole range of issues. I looked at the structure of third level institutions to see if there might be any bureaucratic factors in play and how we might have a more efficient and effective operation within the sector itself. I am also aware that a value for money audit has almost been completed by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Deputy Brian Hayes: Is the Minister sure about that?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: That is the information I received from members of the Committee of Public Accounts. As the Deputy is aware, I cannot interfere with the Comptroller and Auditor General, he is absolutely independent. However, my information is that an audit on value for money is near completion.

Deputy Brian Hayes: I appreciate what the Minister is saying. Is it his view that he could not move to make a decision on the wider issue of funding until such a time as he receives that audit?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: This is where I disagree fundamentally with Deputy Hayes. The State is currently investing \2 billion in the third level sector, an increase of 33.3% over the last four years. The Exchequer is paying some \350 million by way of fees to the third level sector. This is a fundamental policy issue which will have to be decided on by the Govern- 3 o’clock ment. It is for this reason that I have separated this issue from those being dealt with by the strategy group. The Government must ultimately give direction according to its conclusions.

Question No. 39 answered with Question No. 36.

Capitation Grants. 40. Deputy John O’Mahony asked the Minister for Education and Science the reason for the withdrawal of capitation grants for the schools service which provides school books for children with special educational needs in primary schools; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12289/09]

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I have consistently said that the 2009 budget required difficult choices to be made across all areas of public expenditure. These decisions were made to control public expenditure and to ensure sustainability in the long run. In this respect, education, while protected to a much greater extent than most other areas of public expenditure, could not be entirely spared. The changes made in regard to book grants were one aspect of these measures. The Deputy refers to grants for school books for children with special needs. To clarify, there was no specific special needs aspect to the book grant paid to schools. The key change is that aid for school books is being restricted to schools that are included within the delivering equality of opportunity in schools, DEIS, scheme. By limiting the funding to schools within the DEIS scheme, savings of \7.5 million will be achieved. DEIS is the action plan for educational inclusion and focuses on addressing the educational needs of children and young people from disadvantaged communities. Approximately \7 million was made available in 2008 to DEIS schools at primary and post- primary level for the school book grant scheme. The same level of provision has been made available for distribution to schools in the DEIS programme in 2009. The continuation of this 699 Capitation 25 March 2009. Grants

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] provision is testament to the Government’s determination to prioritise social inclusion and protect the most vulnerable in our society. We must focus targeted resources on the schools in most need. This is in line with the broad thrust of the recommendations of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s 2006 report on primary disadvantage. My Department has encouraged schools to implement book rental schemes as a measure to minimise the cost of school books to all parents. As far back as 1993, a report commissioned by my Department dealt with the factors which contribute to the cost of school textbooks. The report included useful suggestions for schools, including a code of good practice for the successful operation of book rental schemes. Many schools have developed such rental schemes. It is open to schools to utilise general capitation funding to fund book rental schemes. Enhanced rates of capitation funding are paid in respect of children with special educational needs. The capitation rates for these children range from \512 to \986 per pupil, an increase of 59% from the rate in 2006. I have already said that I favour a reform of the grants system to one overall funding grant that allows schools to use the funding to meet the priorities they identify. I fully acknowledge that there are pressures on school funding generally and that it is difficult for schools to cover all competing priorities. However, we are in very difficult times. By any standards there have been significant improvements in school funding within a relatively short period and the Government is committed to increasing funding further for schools as resources permit. The current state of the public finances and the widely acknowledged need for further cuts in public expenditure simply reinforce the imperatives that underpinned the decisions taken in October.

Deputy John O’Mahony: I thank the Minister for his reply. I am concerned about how these changes will affect pupils in schools throughout the State. The Minister referred to support for DEIS schools. I have before me a list of parents and teachers of students with special needs in non-DEIS schools. Recurring themes in the months since our economic difficulties emerged are that there must be value for money and that the vulnerable must be protected. In this instance, students with special educational needs in non-DEIS schools are falling through the cracks. In my own constituency of Mayo, a capitation grant of \65,000 was paid to the county council last year to provide a school library service. Special needs teachers were able to obtain books under this scheme for children with special needs in their schools. We are all aware of the need for reductions in public expenditure. It is only right that those parents who can afford to do so should pay for their children’s school books. However, what about vulnerable children in non- DEIS schools? What has the Minister to say to those teachers whose students have been eligible for this service thus far but are now to be denied it? Has any provision been made for such students? Officials in Mayo County Council have told me that the cutbacks will affect not only children with special needs but also non-national children, or the new Irish as they are often described. Other services that may be affected include the link-up to the Health Service Execu- tive for the provision of speech therapy services. What will the Minister say to the parents and teachers of the children for whom these services will be withdrawn in June 2009?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The Deputy has raised several issues. The Comptroller and Auditor General indicated clearly that any supports we provide should be targeted at students in disadvantaged areas. Therefore, I have ensured that funding is targeted at DEIS schools. Deputy O’Mahony did not refer to the increase in the capitation grant this year. It is true that some grants have been withdrawn but the reality is that there has been a significant increase in capitation to the primary sector. Neither did the Deputy refer to the enhanced rates 700 Other 25 March 2009. Questions of capitation funding paid in respect of children with special educational needs who attend special schools or special classes attached to mainstream schools. The current rate ranges from \512 to \986 per pupil, an increase of 59% since 2006. My objective is to offer flexibility to schools by allowing them to decide on their own priorities for capitation funding.

Deputy John O’Mahony: The problem is that the Minister is giving with one hand and taking away with the other. The enhanced funding to which he refers was in place before these cutbacks were introduced. What is to be done for the children who continue to require the supports formerly available under this scheme? That is the question I want the Minister to answer.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The Deputy claims the enhanced provisions were in place prior to the changes announced in the October budget. That is not correct. I specifically undertook to increase the capitation grant in that budget having acknowledged that the existing grant was too low. There has been a 59% increase in the rate of capitation, which now ranges from \512 to as much as \986, to children with special educational needs who are either in mainstream classes or in special classes. The amount of the capitation depends on the individual needs of the child. That is significant in itself.

Other Questions.

————

State Examinations. 41. Deputy David Stanton asked the Minister for Education and Science his views on a recent recommendation by the National Competitiveness Council that bonus points for higher level leaving certificate mathematics should be given immediate consideration; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12192/09]

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Decisions on the award of points and admission criteria for entry to higher education programmes are, under legislation, a matter for the higher education institutions. My Department asked the Higher Education Authority to initiate a discussion across higher education institutions regarding the desirability or otherwise of awarding bonus points. The overall view emerging was that the introduction of bonus points was unlikely to dramatically increase uptake of higher level maths. The report of the Points Commission in 1999 considered the issue of bonus points and advised against such an approach on the grounds that it would lead to a narrowing of the range of subjects taken by students, create pressure on students to make early career choices, give rise to equity issues where the subject was not available and lead to distortions in third level access and provision. When bonus points were removed in 1994 on foot of curricular reform, participation in higher level maths increased. Curriculum reform has more impact than points in this area. I recently launched a major initiative, Project Maths, designed to encourage better understanding of maths, reinforce the practical relevance of maths to everyday life, and ensure better continuity between primary and second level and junior and senior cycle. The initiative started in 2008 and is being piloted in 24 schools. The curriculum changes will be phased in over three years and mainstreaming in all schools will begin in 2010, prefaced by a national programme of professional development for teachers beginning in 2009. The changes under Project Maths are proceeding simultaneously at junior and senior cycle to allow for optimum progress in implementing the reforms. The reforms are also designed to encourage greater uptake at higher level. 701 Other 25 March 2009. Questions

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.]

Project Maths will be supported by intensive investment in professional development for teachers. A mathematics support team has been appointed and is currently supporting the project schools, as well as preparing for mainstream in-service development which will start in September 2009, followed by mainstream implementation starting in September 2010. Some \3 million has been provided for the programme in 2009 and the investment will continue over a number of years, to at least 2013, in a rolling programme of reform. Education provision must cater for all students, and placing some subjects at a higher value, notwithstanding the importance of other disciplines, and the abilities, interests and legitimate choices of students, could potentially be counterproductive.

Deputy Deirdre Clune: The question refers to the recent recommendation of the National Competitiveness Council for the immediate awarding of bonus points for mathematics. The uptake of mathematics is crucial for the future of the economy. It feeds into financial services, sciences, engineering and IT. Only 17% of students take the higher-level leaving certificate mathematics examination and similar figures are reflected in the students taking it at junior certificate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: A question please.

Deputy Deirdre Clune: Does the Minister take note of the National Competitiveness Council report? Has he had any engagement with the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment? There should be some crossover between that Department and the Department of Education and Science. Uptake of mathematics is essential and unless we focus on it we will not develop the cohort of graduates necessary for the Government’s knowledge economy.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Obviously one takes note of all the reports. IBEC has indicated that it would recommend awarding bonus points. The council, itself, came out with the report during the week with its indications. All of the relevant information suggests that understanding mathematical concepts is far more important for children. Having curricular reform is far more important——

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: Why not do both?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: ——in the longer term.

Deputy Deirdre Clune: We do not have time for the long-term solutions.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Allow the Minister to reply.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I ask Deputies to consider the University of Limerick and DIT. They are awarding bonus points. There is no indication that there is an increase in the uptake of mathematics in their degree courses. I believe it is appropriate to introduce curricular reform and bring about a better understanding of the mathematical concepts. It is not appropriate to put mathematics as a singular entity out there, indicating that it is a particular subject and making it less appealing to the students.

Deputy Deirdre Clune: The idea is to attract students.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: As I said in my reply, this is a matter for the third level institutions. I have asked the Higher Education Authority to liaise with the universities and the institutes. They do not favour the introduction of a bonus points system for mathematics. 702 Other 25 March 2009. Questions

Deputy David Stanton: Does the Minister agree that part of the problem is that students are afraid of failing the higher level leaving certificate mathematics examination? If they fail higher- level leaving certificate mathematics they are immediately disqualified from many third level courses. Does the Minister have any research information on the number of students who study to higher level standard and then on the day of the examination opt to take the ordinary level paper? Is there a problem that needs to be addressed and does he have any suggestions for addressing such a problem?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Obviously Project Maths and the roll-out of the new curriculum are extremely important. The circumstances relating to a new primary level mathematics curriculum has been very fruitful. Rolling out Project Maths into the secondary level and giving mathematics teachers the associated in-service training are fundamental. There has been low participation in mathematics at the higher level. The uptake at higher level was 17% in 2008 when we would expect an uptake of 20% to 25%. Obviously that is what we are trying to achieve. It is also important to note that we have the junior science curriculum. We have the discover science and engineering programme. We have a promotion in terms of understanding mathematics itself and the sciences in general. We hope to increase participation levels through curricular reform. I recently met the president of Stanford University, which feeds into the Silicon Valley firms. The number of people taking mathematics as a subject is also a problem for that university. The attractiveness of mathematics as a subject is a worldwide phenomenon.

Deputy Deirdre Clune: The Minister used the word “hope”. We need more than the hope that curricular reform will work. Project Maths is being piloted in 24 schools at the moment. How long it will take to roll out and have an impact? We are staring into an abyss. I spoke to representatives of Engineers Ireland during the recent engineers week. They are seriously concerned over the number of students attracted to the sciences, engineering and mathematics. Finland identified a problem with mathematics. The authorities trained teachers and put them on a different level, if one likes. They focused on supporting mathematics because the economy needed it. In that regard the Minister has a very important role to play along with the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Project Maths is not a hope. It will be a reality. Project Maths will encourage a far greater understanding and will certainly reinforce the practical relevance of mathematics to everyday life. It will ensure a better continuity between the primary curriculum and the second level one. The initiative commenced in 2008. As we speak it is being piloted in 24 schools. The curriculum changes will be phased in over three years. Mainstreaming will begin in 2010 in all schools prefaced by a national programme of professional development for teachers which has begun in 2009.

Schools Building Projects. 42. Deputy Sea´n Sherlock asked the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamentary Question No. 38 of 26 February 2009, the reasons the contracts could not be signed as was promised; the outstanding details which have yet to be resolved; if the terms and conditions of the contracts will be made known publicly in the interests of transparency and accountability; the duration of the contract and the annual percentage rate of interest for the duration of the contract; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12227/09]

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The first bundle of post-primary schools announced by my Depart- ment in November 2005 comprises Colaíste na Sıónna, Banagher; Gallen Community School, Ferbane; Scoil Chrıóst Rı´, Portlaoise and St. Mary’s CBS, Portlaoise. A preferred tenderer, Macquarie Partnership for Ireland, was appointed for this bundle in October 2007. Full plan- 703 Other 25 March 2009. Questions

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] ning permission for all four schools was secured by Macquarie in August 2008 and I am now pleased to inform the Deputy that the contract for the provision of these four schools was signed by the National Development Finance Agency on 6 March 2009. A total of 2,700 pupil places will be provided when these schools are completed. The contractor, Pierse Group, moved on to the three sites immediately and construction work commenced on 9 March. It is expected that the schools will become operational in September 2010. During the finalisation of contract details for this bundle, the financial landscape has changed considerably and this affected the timeframe for closure of the bundle. Specifically, the original bank proposed by the consortia withdrew from the market in the third quarter of 2008 and a replacement bank had to be found. Regarding the interest rates for this project, I have sought the advice of the National Development Finance Agency and have been advised that this information is considered commercially sensitive and cannot therefore be provided. While I am not in a position to provide details on the terms and conditions of specific bundles, I will provide the Deputy with a copy of the project agreement template which outlines the terms and conditions that apply to all PPP contracts.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: I thank the Minister for his reply. I appreciate he is not responsible for the nonsense with which we are confronted. We are supposed to live and work in a market economy and be able to access what prices are so that there can be adjustments for other competitors. Would the Minister not agree that it is unacceptable for scarce taxpayers’ money to be used to fund contracts the cost of which the Minister is denying to this House? He is not doing it personally but is being instructed to do it. This is a time when the rate of interest available in the open market for a project with banking certainty such as schools building is considerably below anything that PPPs traditionally demanded. The Minister is the prisoner of this nonsense and I wonder whether he is going to continue with it. It seems to be a denial of democracy for him to say here that we have entered into contracts, the total value of which must be in the millions. A very good building contracting company is undertaking the project but we need to know if we are getting value for money. This is the nonsense we have been getting from the bank since last autumn. We simply do not know and, incidentally, nor does the Minister, who is the prisoner of the secrecy this system has imposed upon him. Will the Minister undertake to open up the system? There are many builders who would love to have a go at providing this kind of work on the same terms and conditions that are in place. It is wrong in every sense of the word that the terms and conditions are commercially sensitive. What does that mean?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: It means two other bundles will be going out to the market, one in the middle of 2009 and the other at the end of 2009. It is the NTMA’s view that it would be commercially sensitive to give that information now. To be fair, on a previous occasion when the Deputy raised the issue of interest, I gave him the details of the interest charge.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: Which was way over the market rate.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I will be in a position to give the Deputy the details of the interest as soon as the other bundles have been cleared and clarified. As a former Minister for Finance, the Deputy more than anyone else would understand exactly what is the situation. On the question as to whether I am satisfied that the contract is not more expensive than funding this via the Exchequer, the bid accepted by the National Development Finance Agency passed all value for money tests as prescribed in the Department of Finance public private 704 Other 25 March 2009. Questions partnership guidelines. These guidelines apply to all PPP projects regardless of whether they are funded by direct Exchequer funding, by deferred annual payments from the Exchequer, by user charges or by any other means. Four formal value for money tests are completed during the PPP procurement process. The first two tests are the responsibility of the Department prior to the handover of the project to the National Development Finance Agency for procurement, and responsibility for the third and fourth formal tests rests with the National Development Finance Agency itself. The bid accepted by the National Development Finance Agency passed all of these tests.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: In the current market conditions, which are totally different to the ones applying when the PPPs were first conceived, I ask the Minister to reconsider this and to think again. I cannot see why we do not publish what was the price for this contract in better times in 2007, and subsequently in 2008 with a falling market. If that is publicised, surely we are likely to get better value. One would not run a cattle fair the way the Minister is running this kind of school programme. Farmers going to market know what the price of cattle was last week and the week before. Why can we not know the same kind of information in this context? That is what the market economy is supposed to be about.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I am rather surprised at Deputy Quinn. As a former Minister for Finance, he will understand that sometimes commercially sensitive information must be kept from the public view. The important point is whether we got value for money and whether the PPP projects now in place are giving value for money. There is a public sector benchmark which provides a key measure for my Department and the NTMA to test the extent to which bids are good value for the State. In the case of the schools bundle 1, the final tender amount, inclusive of interest, remained below my Department’s public sector benchmark. The Depart- ment and I are well satisfied that we have got good value for money.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: I disagree.

Property Transfers. 43. Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall asked the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamentary Question No. 22 of 26 February 2009, if he will state, in respect of the 63 properties which were transferred to the State as part of the indemnity agreement towards the cost of the redress scheme, the name and address of each property; the part of the Health Service Executive that is in occupation or using 30 of the transferred properties; the location and use of the 15 properties which are being used by his Department; the name and address of the 17 properties which have been transferred to various voluntary bodies with an indication of the use to which these voluntary bodies are putting these properties; the names and functions of all of these voluntary bodies; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12241/09]

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I wish to advise the Deputy that, with regard to the queries raised by her in regard to the properties being transferred to the State as a result of the indemnity agreement, the specific details sought are contained in a number of lists which are currently being distributed to the Deputies. List A gives the names and addresses of the 63 properties transferring under the terms of the indemnity agreement, together with the names of the various bodies to which they are transferring. Of the 30 properties transferring to the Health Service Executive, 18 are going to the HSE southern area, six to the HSE eastern region, four to the HSE south-eastern area and two to the HSE mid-western area. The various properties are being used to provide a range of 705 Other 25 March 2009. Questions

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] day and residential services including child care, primary care and intellectual disability services for children and adults. List B gives the names and locations of the 15 properties transferring to my Department. All of these properties, whether in the form of school buildings or sites, are for education facilities. List C contains the names and locations of the 17 properties transferring to voluntary bodies and local authorities. These properties are being used to provide voluntary or social housing and a range of other health and social services. I trust that this information, together with the details contained on the lists provided, satisfies the Deputy’s queries.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: I thank the Minister. It probably would have been easier to get the details of the third secret of Fatima than to get this information but it is on its way and I cannot contain myself with excitement.

Deputy Brian Hayes: From the Minister’s assessment of the indemnity agreement, what is the outstanding amount which must be paid through the scheme? One action is currently before the High Court, as the Minister knows. What is the current liability the Department must pay to the victims?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Up to 31 December 2008, the board had made awards in the case of 11,848 applicants. A further 699 cases have been withdrawn, refused or have resulted in no award being made. This leaves a balance of 2,047 cases remaining to be processed. The overall average award from the inception of the scheme is \64,892. Based on the number of applications received, the final cost of the scheme may be \1.1 billion, including legal and administrative costs, which are now running at approximately 28% of awards. Any estimate of the final cost of the scheme at this point will, of course, be tentative as there are approximately 2,047 outstanding cases at present. As the board generally clears between 200 and 220 cases per month, it is estimated that the remaining cases will be processed by the end of 2009.

Deputy Brian Hayes: To clarify, \1.1 billion is owed by the Minister’s Department to the victims of abuse. That is the total sum at this stage——

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: It is a tentative sum.

Deputy Brian Hayes: It is the amount coming from the Department. We could put many teachers and schools in place, as well as many special needs classes which we are suppressing.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: We could.

Deputy Brian Hayes: Has the Minister had discussions with the Attorney General about the possibility of reopening this deal with the religious orders given the fact, to which Deputy Quinn’s question refers, 63 properties were included at a time when property values were exceptionally higher than they are now? Is there potential to reopen this sordid deal given the young students of this country are now picking up the bill for it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We are well outside the scope of the question.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: There are two points to remember in this regard. The Committee of Public Accounts examined this and, at the end of the day, its view was that the best deal possible in the circumstances was obtained by the State. The Deputy conveniently forgets that 706 Other 25 March 2009. Questions the State had already decided it was going to put a redress scheme in place before there was any view that the churches should make a contribution. An agreement has been reached with the churches. That is signed, sealed and delivered and it is not my intention to seek a review of that agreement.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: I accept what the Minister has said but there are other ways of re- entering negotiations with the religious orders, which are the owners of the educational property, to see if they can transfer the legal ownership of that property, maintain the schools as ongoing places of education and maintain the nature of their patronage so they will not, as their numbers decline, be tempted, as has happened in the past, to unilaterally decide to sell off those schools. I have raised this matter previously with the Minister. I accept the present deal is a bad one and was not the best available. However, there are other avenues that should be explored.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I answered this question for Deputy Quinn on the last occasion. At that time, I looked at a system that was working well, which has served us well and with which parents seem to be happy. I must ask myself, in terms of transferring these schools into State ownership, whether I am better off putting money into capital resources, building new——

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: I am not talking about money. No cash will change hands, just the deeds.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We have moved well outside the scope of the question.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: We have. The Deputy is in a generous mood this afternoon. I am not sure others would match that generosity.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: It is a fair point.

Departmental Expenditure. 44. Deputy Pat Breen asked the Minister for Education and Science if officials from his Department have met with the Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure Programmes; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12123/09]

Deputy Brian Hayes: I knew the Minister would like this question.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The secretary general and senior officials from my Department met with the special group on Wednesday, 18 March 2009. It would not be appropriate for me to comment on the work of the special group until it has completed its work and submitted it to the Minister for Finance, who will report to Government on the matter.

Deputy Brian Hayes: On the subject of the third secret of Fatima, it would be useful if we had a public debate in regard to what was discussed at the meeting which took place last week. For clarification purposes, the Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure Programmes is an bord snip nua, the group currently investigating expenditure by each Depart- ment of State. Perhaps the Minister will state whether he or his officials, prior to meeting with the group, had any discussions with the education partners in regard to areas of potential wastage within the education Vote. From my discussions with the partners, they can readily identify second and third level expenditure areas in which savings can be achieved. Progress can be made in 707 Other 25 March 2009. Questions

[Deputy Brian Hayes.] this area if we work on a collaborative basis. Was there any discussion with the education partners in advance of that meeting? Can the Minister outline any potential areas where big savings and reform can be achieved? I have gone on record in regard to a number of them during the past six months or so. We can make progress if we work with the education partners.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: We meet regularly with the education partners and did so in the context of the last budget in terms of funding. We are in regular contact with them. The secretary general and senior officials from my Department liaise on a regular basis with the education partners. We are apprised of some of the issues. I have met with principal teacher organisations and have listened to their proposals. Obviously, I welcome that participation and level of dialogue. On the review group, its remit is to examine all areas of public spending. I am examining expenditure in the third level sector and in this regard met with the Higher Education Authority yesterday. I also addressed a meeting of the new authority. Last week, the secretary general and I met with the Chairman of the HEA and other people who had examined expenditure in one of the third level institutions in terms of how it had and could make further significant savings. I am not waiting for the review group to complete its work. I have asked the HEA to request the presidents of the institutes of technology to meet with this group to tease out with it where savings can be garnered. I will meet later with the presidents and provost of Trinity College, Dublin, to tease out with them where savings can be made within that particular sector. That is one example of where we are being proactive in terms of ensuring we obtain value for money in respect of every day spending.

Deputy Brian Hayes: Will the Minister agree that an area where savings could be made is exceptional salaries to people in the third level sector? These people must acknowledge the circumstances facing this country and the pressure on the Minister’s Department in terms of resources and in this regard be prepared to take a significant cut in salary as a means of achieving savings and showing good leadership. Does the Minister agree with that position?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I made my position clear on a radio programme last week when I instanced that secretaries general within the various Departments had taken significant cuts in their salaries. I also indicated that people who held similar positions within the education sector should, perhaps, consider doing likewise.

Deputy Brian Hayes: Is it the intention of the Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure Programmes to revisit the Department of Education and Science to reconsider some of the proposals made at the meeting held last week or was that a once-off meeting?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I am not sure. The remit of the review group is to report to the Minister for Finance who will then present a report to Government. Obviously, I will be party to the submission brought before Cabinet.

School Curriculum. 45. Deputy Joanna Tuffy asked the Minister for Education and Science if his Department considers itself under a legal obligation to provide English language support to foreign students in order that they can participate fully within the school environment; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12252/09] 708 Other 25 March 2009. Questions

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The Education Act 1998 sets out the legislative framework for the provision of education to all pupils. There is no specific reference in that Act to English language support. In my view, language support must be approached from the perspective not of legal imperative, but of enabling pupils for whom English is not the mother tongue to access the curriculum and participate fully in the Irish education system. Language support is a measure that is integral to a policy of inclusion. I recognise that the quality of supports pupils receive and the inclusive atmosphere cultivated in schools are important factors influencing the quality of learning obtained by newcomer pupils. Research is being carried out on a number of fronts to ensure that a quality service continues to be provided. To assist teachers with this work, resource materials, including inter- cultural guidelines and assessment kits for primary and post-primary schools, have been prepared and provided to all schools. My Department supports an inclusive school environment that reflects values and affirms linguistic, ethnic and cultural diversity. Schools are encouraged to have in place policies and procedures that promote and facilitate the inclusion of all pupils. A school’s commitment to creating an inclusive school environment should be evident in the school plan, the promotion of parental involvement, the provision of equality of access, the facilitation of professional development opportunities and in whole-school and classroom practice. Pupils should also be encouraged and facilitated in maintaining a connection with their own culture and language through curriculum activities and displays. On supports for schools, I must operate within the level of funding provided by the Oireachtas. In light of the budget 2009 decision, my Department has now published a circular for schools which sets out how the new arrangements for the allocation of language support teachers from September 2009 will operate. The circular sets out a structured and transparent approach for the operation of the alleviation measures announced in the budget for schools that have a significant concentration of newcomer pupils. The alleviation measures provide that these schools can qualify for up to four language support posts with the possibility of additional posts also being approved through the independent staffing appeals mechanism.

Additional information not provided on the floor of the House. Schools can apply in the normal way to my Department for language support posts. These posts are approved on a provisional basis initially and will be confirmed in September 2009 following receipt from the schools of actual enrolments of pupils requiring language support. It is estimated that, notwithstanding the budget measures, there will be more than 1,400 language support teaching posts in our primary and post-primary schools in September 2009 and up to approximately 500 other teachers in part-time posts. By any standards, this is a significant resource and the challenge will be to ensure that it is used to maximum effect.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: Will the Minister confirm that the impact of the measures as originally announced will be the removal from the education system of 550 teachers who are providing language support, that this will result in a saving of approximately \33 million and that the words “unemployed” or “sacked” teachers will not appear anywhere else because these people are on contract? This is a cruel way of achieving a small, snappy reduction in expenditure. I am sure the Minister’s colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, who is responsible for integration, has informed him that the experience in Denmark and, in particular, the Netherlands has been that children of foreign emigrants, born in the relevant country, who have English as a second language for which they do not receive support fail to obtain the level of education qualification required to enable them to progress into the adult labour market, resulting in them becoming a constant burden on the country’s social welfare system. That has 709 Other 25 March 2009. Questions

[Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn.] been the experience in Denmark and the Netherlands. The Minister is building the foundations of permanent discrimination and racial antagonism between newcomers and residents because the former will be handicapped at an early stage in their lives, will not be able to participate fully in the Irish labour market and will be deemed to be a burden on the State.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: On the first question, the reduction in posts will be approximately 550. This will be achieved through a combination of lower levels of immigration and the capping of language support at a maximum of two extra teachers per school, with some alleviation for the position of those schools where there is a significant concentration of newcomer pupils as a proportion of the overall enrolment. The reduction in posts is estimated to achieve a saving of up to \34 million in a full year and approximately \11 million in 2009. When it came to dealing with language support, I was conscious of those schools with a high percentage of non-national children with English language requirements. When I was making a decision on language support services, I was conscious that certain schools take in a high percentage of non-national children with English language requirements.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: We call them “the new Irish”.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I have assured the schools in question that they will be able to make a special case. It has been suggested that additional language teachers will be allocated to particular schools on the basis of nods and winks, etc. Before 2006, the number of language support teachers who could be allocated to each school was capped at two. I have made it clear I want to ensure that schools that have been seen to integrate such pupils will be given the additional resources they require.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: Good.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: We have put in place an independent appeals mechanism to ensure that appeals can be made if difficulties arise.

Deputy Brian Hayes: I will ask the Minister about the appeals mechanism he has just mentioned. I have read the circular that was posted on the Minister’s website yesterday. I welcome the fact that the circular has brought some finality to this matter, at least, thereby ensuring that schools can start planning for next September. Can I ask the Minister about the existing appeals mechanism that applies to the staffing schedule? When a school makes an appeal, it has no chance of getting the decision overturned. Can I ask the Minister to ensure that the appeals mechanism to be put in place in respect of English language support teachers will be flexible and open and will take the concerns of the various schools on board? Between 40% and 50% of the children in certain schools in my constituency, like that of Deputy Quinn, do not come from English-speaking backgrounds. Such schools need a flexible appeals system.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: Yes.

Deputy Brian Hayes: I appeal to the Minister to ensure the appeals system outlined in the circular that was posted yesterday will meet the needs of such schools in a genuinely flexible manner.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: My intention, when dealing with the numbers of additional language support teachers that could be put in place, was to be open and transparent. I did not want to be accused of operating on the basis of nods and winks, or political interference. I was keen to put in place a clear benchmark for the appointment of additional language support teachers. 710 Adjournment 25 March 2009. Debate Matters

That is what has been put in place. Everybody can see that. If a school wants to make an appeal under the revised system, which has been clearly set out, some 25% of its children will have to be newcomer children with English language support requirements. The basis on which appeals can be submitted has been made clearly known to schools. I will not tell the independent appeals body to be flexible — it is familiar with my position, which is that flexibility should be built into the appeals system in cases of schools which are willing to integrate and are seen to take in a high percentage of children who need language support.

Deputy Finian McGrath: Can I ask the Minister about language support services for foreign students? Does he accept that education, specifically the language support system, must be part of any long-term strategy for turning our economy around? Is he aware that international experience suggests that children from foreign families or emigrants perform exceptionally well when language support services are made available to them in their host countries? Does he agree that such people can make a massive contribution to the development of Ireland and the Irish economy? Does the Minister accept that many well-off schools do not appear to have a balanced intake of foreign pupils? Does he have a plan for dealing with that issue?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: We have gone beyond the remit of the original question. It is important for me to make clear, in case people think we are denuding schools of all language support teachers, that our schools will continue to avail of the services of approximately 1,400 language support teachers. Approximately 500 other teachers will be in part-time positions within the language support system. I can inform the Deputy, in response to the second part of his question, that the Department has undertaken an audit of the systems of admission of various schools. While the audit found that such systems are fair and above board, by and large, it also indicated that enrolment practices in certain schools need to be addressed. It is my intention to do that.

Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.

Adjournment Debate Matters. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 21 and the name of the Member in each case: (1) Deputy Mattie McGrath — issues pertaining to South Tipperary General Hospital; (2) Deputy Leo Varadkar — the need for the Minister for Health and Children to report to the House on the commitment that was given to provide a primary care centre in Corduff, Dublin 15, under the HSE capital programme, noting that little progress has been made to date, and to use her influence to ensure that the project proceeds; (3) Deputy Lucinda Creighton — the urgent need for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to delay the Poolbeg planning scheme section 25 process, in light of recent revelations in the financial sector, to allow time for the commercial, financial and legal relationships between the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, Becbay Limited, Anglo Irish Bank and certain developers to be clarified; (4) Deputy Joe McHugh — the need to consider the rates of indirect taxation that apply in Northern Ireland and Britain when policy on indirect taxation in this jurisdiction is being formulated; (5) Deputy Shane McEntee — the need for future road development policy to prioritise the need to improve safety; (6) Deputy Dara Calleary — the difficulties being caused, particularly to farmers in County Mayo, by delays in the payment of grants under the REPS 4 scheme; (7) Deputy James Bannon — the need for the Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism to explain why application forms for funding under the 2009 lottery sports grant scheme are not yet available and to outline when he envisages such grants will be paid; (8) Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in — the position regarding the roads programme, in 711 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[An Leas-Cheann Comhairle.] view of recent reports that more than 70 road projects will not be proceeded with; (9) Deputy Dan Neville — the need for a new palliative care unit at St. Ita’s Community Hospital in Newcastle West, County Limerick; (10) Deputy Joe Costello — the need for the Minister for Transport to ensure that two major public transport projects on the north side of Dublin, the metro and the Luas BX/D projects, are completed without delay under Transport 21; (11) Deputy Finian McGrath — the development of cystic fibrosis services in 2009; (12) Deputy Thomas Byrne — the need to review roads policy to give a greater priority to safety; (13) Deputy Tom Hayes — the provision of funds under the RAPID programmes; and (14) Deputy Thomas P. Broughan — the return of six hangars by SR Technics to the Dublin Airport Authority. The matters submitted by Deputies Joe McHugh, Thomas P. Broughan, Tom Hayes and Dara Calleary have been selected for discussion.

Pre-Budget Statements (Resumed). Deputy Jimmy Deenihan: As I was saying before the House suspended, Ireland must return to its successful export-led model of the 1990s. A number of challenges will have to be met if the economy is to capitalise on the global upturn when it arrives. We must reduce our cost base, particularly in respect of public services. We will have to restore Ireland’s reputation as a good place in which to do business. The House is aware that recent events have damaged and tarnished this country’s reputation. We need to identify niche sectors in which Ireland can provide the “best of breed”, as it is sometimes described. We should draw on our competitive advantages in sectors like renewable energy, which the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, has discussed in the Silicon Valley. I visited the Silicon Valley recently to promote the exact same concept. We have opportunities in such areas. We have to do something about the public pay bill, which will reach approximately 13% of GDP this year, even when the recent pension savings are taken into account. The bill accounted for 11% of GDP, on average, between 2003 and 2007. Fine Gael’s proposals for reducing the public pay bill start right here in the Oireachtas. I believe one should start at the top and move down when taking action of this nature. Those of us at the top need to make sacrifices in the first instance if we want people at the bottom to accept similar sacrifices. We need to prevent any future rapid deterioration in the fiscal balance, of the kind we have recently experienced. I suggest that we should adopt a golden rule to the effect that borrowing is permitted only for the purposes of capital spending. The best way to ensure such a framework stays intact is to siphon off any cyclically adjusted surpluses, such as those enjoyed over the last ten years, into a “rainy day” fund that can be used in more difficult times. If such a fund were available to us now, we might not be in such difficulty. An obvious candidate for special focus is the renewable energy sector, which I have mentioned. Ireland’s climate is ideal for harnessing wind and wave power, as the House is aware. I am sure the Minister has studied Denmark, which is an example of a country from which we should learn. Denmark produces a large percentage of its energy from renewable sources. We should try to attract more European hubs to Ireland. Many companies, including Google, have already decided to base their European operations here. We can attract many more hubs if we target the right companies. This country will face major challenges on 7 April next. I have been a Member of this House for the same length of time as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Those of us in Fine Gael have always made proposals in opposition, which is something Fianna Fa´il did not do when we were in government. I ask the Government to examine some of the proposals we are making at this 712 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) time. They have merit and should be considered when the Government is framing its solutions to the crisis faced by this country.

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): There is no doubt that we are at an unprecedented point of crisis. I would like to draw attention to various aspects of the crisis, with specific reference to the useful work done by National Econ- omic and Social Council. I am aware that a number of Deputies referred to the council’s report, which was published recently, in their contributions. The approach advocated by the council in its timely report involves an integrated national response to this crisis. People are looking for simple reassurance from this Parliament. They want to know that Members on all sides, as leaders of the people, have a plan to get us through this unprecedented crisis. I believe we have such a plan and we will get through this crisis. An integrated approach is needed if we are to tackle the banking crisis, the crisis in the public finances, our crisis of economic competitiveness, our social crisis and our reputational crisis, as set out in the National Economic and Social Council’s report. I would like to address each of those five areas in the ten minutes available to me. I mentioned the banking crisis first because we are, first and foremost, in the middle of an unprecedented global financial crisis that has developed in the past 30 years. The roots of this crisis go back to changes in the political system 30 years ago that allowed for a change in the economic and banking system with the emergence of a market-based philosophy, a belief that markets would self-correct and would manage themselves, that they required light regulation, that the new financial system could overcome any economic difficulties that would be encoun- tered and would provide a sound basis for future economic growth. That model is shattered. It is seen now to have completely failed. Those markets were not able to self-regulate and the normal human instinct to lose the run of oneself, to increase the level of credit beyond that which was in any way sustainable, has occurred across the globe and will, regardless of what we do, require us to manage a remarkable contraction. Inevitable and unavoidably, that credit which was spectacularly beyond the measure of what would be proper, that expansion in money supply, must contract on a global basis and we, as an open economy dependent on a buoyant international global economy, must manage that contraction carefully. We have a particular problem in that regard. While we did not get caught up in purchasing some of the worst type of toxic debt, such as the internationally-traded securities that had no real value, we made a fundamental error in our banking system, only in the past three or four years and particularly from 2004 to 2006, I would argue, when the property bubble or price increases here went beyond what had been caused by supply-demand imbalance to where people were merely chasing out of either fear or greed. It may have been fear that they had to buy property because the market would continue to rise and they would not be able to afford it at any point, or else greed on the basis that it would forever rise and people wanted to get into that market to profit from it. It is that greed, and particularly that lack of foresight in our banking system which lent ridiculous amounts of money for commercial and residential property speculation, which is our particular difficulty that we must manage. We can manage it. It is largely within our own shores, unlike the tulip bubble or the South Sea bubble of the past. It is in south Dublin and in the towns and villages of Ireland where there are land banks and properties that we now must manage, and we can do that over a proper timeframe. That is why the Government’s approach, in commissioning Dr. Peter Bacon to look at a range of options in terms of how we can manage these assets on the back of the guarantee that has been introduced, will allow us to manage our finances through this period. This is particularly the case because we are backed up by a European currency which gives us the strength and stability in what would otherwise be an impossible situation to manage, while 713 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Eamon Ryan.] recognising that the euro and access to cheap money at a time when we had such fast growth was actually the cause of the problem in the first place. It was that access to cheap money which did not involve a currency risk. We were able to get money in from Germany and there spectacular growth. According to the National Economic and Social Council’s report, this expanded in the short period of between 2004 and 2006 beyond what was in any way sustainable. That is the mistake or fundamental problem we must manage. It is of a large scale but it is manageable by ourselves over time. The second issue we must manage, which is a consequence of that, is the contraction in our public finances. The simple fundamental flaw in the taxation system was that it became too dependent on revenues based on the construction industry and house-selling, be it from stamp duty, VAT from the construction industry, or the employment or other taxes that came out of it. That structural imbalance is what we must address today, next autumn when we produce a further budget and in the following two or three years. The majority of the response must be a widening of the tax base, and I believe it should be a widening away from a concentration on taxation on income as the response to this but towards taxation on resources which give us long-term benefits in terms of how we develop as a society. We need, as the report states, short-term solutions that have a long-term logic and broadening our tax base to bring it closer to what exists in other northern European countries to which, in truth, we are closer as an economy must be the outcome of the next three to four years planning by the politicians in this House. In the interim, we will have to address the short-term deficit with further taxation and cuts in expenditure in the next two weeks. That is what the Government is doing, sitting down and trying to establish what is the best way to make that first short-term response. There will be criticisms outside that there has been a series of events, such as the public service pension levy. Perhaps people in the public service felt that was unfair because they were the only ones suffering. However, last October people felt the withdrawal of the medical cards — subsequently reintroduced — was unfair because they were the ones bearing the unnecessary burden. The way those measures were introduced is a difficulty, but it was a response based on the need to react to an evolving situation, and it is still not easy to do that. It will never be easy for us to withdraw services that have been introduced or to introduce new taxes, but that is what must be done. An example of how difficult that is, and why it takes a series of changes rather than being able to do it in one fell swoop last July when we first had to start making adjustments, was highlighted in the House this morning when we had two completely different and, it can be argued, equally valid approaches. One from Fine Gael, to paraphrase Deputy Kenny if I can, stated that we should be going in hard, that we need to make greater cuts at this time, as was stated at the time of the October budget. The Labour Party held an equally valid alternative position, stating that one should not deflate the economy too much and one should not make cuts. They are valid arguments. The Government, in the extensive Cabinet meetings that are taking place this week and as it did earlier this year and in October and July last year, is trying to work through what is the best balanced approach to take that will not further increase unemployment or further deflate an economy that is deflating because of the contraction in the construction industry, the problems in the global capital markets and the global economy, but at the same time consider what changes we can make that will give confidence that we are bringing our public finances onto a path that leads us back to a 3% Government deficit in 2013.

714 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

The key is for politics is to lead now with new economics. Perhaps for the past 30 years we have allowed economic market philosophy to determine politics. It is the opposite now. We need a new politics which determines the economics. It is an economics or business model which is not the fast-buck model where one can make a 20% return in a year or experience 20% growth, as the banks were looking at over the past five years. It is one that will not repeat the mistakes in the banks of such massive pay differentials. It is remarkable that those individuals, particularly in the banks and building societies — mutual societies — have so little shame about the model they adopted of self-aggrandisement rather than the proper practice in banking of prudence, security and strength. We need a new business model that is not based on such wide pay differentials. We need one that is green because we must trade our way out of this and sell to the rest of the world; that is what the world will need and we can do it. In providing that economic and business model, we can provide what the report calls for, a sense of common purpose for our people that in solving this problem we have a task in which we can all take part, that in a collective response we will succeed and get out of it, and we will be better people for it.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton: I am pleased to have the opportunity to address the House in this crucial debate where we have an opportunity to put forward ideas. We must also critically assess some of the proposals which have been already floated by Government and try to get to grips with the type of reforms required to get the public finances back on track. 4 o’clock More important, in the long term we must examine ways in which we can begin to stimulate our economy and reintroduce a competitive edge to put us back at the centre of Europe in job creation and the opportunities we afford to the people of this country. It is time for the Government, the public and everybody in political life to get real about the economic tsunami around us. In the last number of months unemployment has exceeded 10% and we face a very real possibility of unemployment reaching almost half a million Irish people by the end of this year, a figure of almost 15%. This is catastrophic and I am very concerned that I am not seeing the Government putting forward any solutions to deal with this calamity or making any effort to explain to the people of Ireland how serious and grave is the situation. Nor is there any serious effort by the Taoiseach and his Ministers to instil any form of confidence in the public as to a plan, solutions or a big idea to get the people of this country out of this crisis. Our deficit has grown to 9.5% of GDP, which we all know is over three times the acceptable EU limit. Let us remember that these are standards to which we have signed up in the Stability and Growth Pact and of which we have been enthusiastic advocates over the past nine years, since the introduction of the single currency in the eurozone. It is extraordinary. There must be latitude and a certain amount of wriggle room in the parameters of EU rules and regulations when we face an economic crisis such as this. It is extraordinary that we were the example all the central and eastern European new member states looked to as the golden child of the EU, the wonderful example of how to do it right. Clearly, we have fallen to the back of the class and are the prime example of how to get it spectacularly wrong. There is a number of reasons for this. We are all well versed in the level of mismanagement by the former Ministers for Finance, Deputy Cowen and Mr. Charlie McCreevy, MEP and the type of inflationary budgets we saw during their reigns. The economy had an over-reliance on the building industry and the Government allowed a situation to develop whereby 25% of all revenue into Government coffers was generated by one sector. One does not need to be a doctor of economics to understand the basics. That was a very dangerous strategy and left us far more exposed than any other country. I am tired of listening to the nonsense from the 715 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Lucinda Creighton.] Government, its “get out of jail card”, that global forces and the worldwide economic crisis caused the Irish economic crisis. This is untrue. The Government put us in this position by leaving our economy completely exposed. The second key feature of the gross mismanagement of our economy has been a complete incompetence in managing the public sector. We have seen creeping incompetence growing in our public sector in the past ten or 12 years

Deputy Peter Power: Whereabouts, exactly?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton: Right across it. I will give a specific example. My biggest problem with what has occurred over three successive Fianna Fa´il-led Governments——

Deputy Peter Power: Where, specifically?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton: I am about to tell the Minister of State. Hang on a second. The Government has allowed a situation to develop where deals were struck behind closed doors through the social partnership process——

Deputy Peter Power: The Deputy made an allegation that the public service is incompetent. I have asked her to give specifics.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton: I am trying to make a point here without interruption.

An Ceann Comhairle: That is true.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton: I am so frustrated at what has been allowed to happen. The Government engaged in deals which led to government by stealth. Benchmarking deals were struck behind closed doors which led to inordinate and unjustifiable pay increases in the public sector without any demands for increased productivity or public sector reforms.

Deputy Peter Power: Deputy Creighton has failed to back up her assertion.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton: Our public sector has grown to 20% of all employed people. How could any government worth its salt contemplate that this could be considered sustainable?

Deputy Peter Power: Can the Deputy back up her assertion? She is not prepared to back it up.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton: The Minister of State’s Government commissioned a benchmarking report headed up by Mr. Jim O’Leary, who in frustration resigned from the process because the Government completely ignored all the recommendations in the report. That is just one element of where the Fianna Fa´il Government sought to buy and curry the favour of public sector unions when faced with the reality that our public sector was growing out of control. It insisted public sector pay be benchmarked against the private sector on very ques- tionable and suspect premises and data, which have never been put in the public domain. Now the Government’s policies have led to the collapse of small and medium-sized businesses around the country and multinationals such as Dell being forced to let thousands of workers go.

Deputy Peter Power: Deputy Creighton still has not backed up her claims of incompetence in the public sector. It is easy to make these bland statements, but she is not prepared to back it up. 716 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Lucinda Creighton: We have seen tens of thousands of people forced to sign on the live register over the last six months. What has the Minister of State’s Government done about it? Absolutely nothing. We face into the Government’s fourth attempt in six or seven months to come to grips with the gaping hole in the public finances and we still see no commitment to reform in the public sector or any measures put in place by the Government to stimulate our economy or bolster our struggling SMEs and private companies around the country. It beggars belief that we are in a situation where we are all being threatened with massive tax increases, because that will clearly help stimulate the economy. We will see swingeing cuts across all Departments. Over the last number of months we have seen that what this Government means by “cuts” is targeting the vulnerable and those it feels are least likely to vote and to take it out on the Government.

Deputy Peter Power: I have not heard a single concrete suggestion in ten minutes. The Opposition claims to be constructive.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton: I have outlined precisely what the Government has been doing. We see no recovery plan to stimulate employment or small and medium-sized enterprises, no credit flow opening up to SMEs in this country. The Government is walking us into another budget with no solutions to stimulate our economy and get us out of the crisis we are in. It is an abdication of leadership and responsibility and the Minister of State ought to be ashamed of himself.

Deputy Peter Power: I have not heard even one constructive suggestion.

An Ceann Comhairle: Hostilities must now cease.

Deputy Cyprian Brady: I will perhaps bring some constructive comment to the debate and I welcome the opportunity to contribute. Nobody in the House is unaware of the tough and unprecedented times we face. The forthcoming budget must be fair and equitable. If that is our bottom line, we can ensure the required changes will be made in such a way that people will support them, including those who have lost their jobs. The changes will be made primarily to ensure workers retain their jobs. Members have debated how and why we have arrived at this point. Members of the public watch and listen to news broadcasts 24 hours a day, seven days a week and, therefore, we cannot blame those who are worried and extremely concerned. As a small, open economy, Ireland exports more than 80% of what it produces and, as a consequence, we are more vulnerable in a downturn. However, over the past six months the so-called tiger economies in Asia have contracted more than our economy has over the past three or four years. We must compete with these economies. Over time through prudent investment in education and business, Ireland has managed to punch above its weight globally. In the early years of this decade, Ireland was the largest exporter of software in the world. That did not happen by accident. The employees of the companies involved should have had jobs for the ten or 15 years of this success. That happened through prudent management of the economy and an enabling fiscal programme. We must maintain that confidence in ourselves. We can talk ourselves into this or out of it. However, to compete as we did in the past, we must concentrate on the areas over which we have control, including taxation and Exchequer spending, and how we spend money on services to which people have grown accustomed over the past 20 years and on the public service, which provides day-to-day front-line services in our hospitals, on our streets and in offices. These services are not provided of their own accord, as they must be put in place. 717 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Cyprian Brady.]

Last year, circumstances over which the Government had no control changed and it has had to adapt to an unprecedented rate of change. No Opposition Member has read the framework for sustainable recovery document, which sets out what the Government is doing. The document highlights that the gap in the Exchequer finances must be tackled, the banks must be sorted out, jobs must be protected and created, those who have lost their jobs must be supported and Ireland’s international reputation must be restored by strengthening our domestic corporate governance arrangements. The Government parties are in the middle of doing this and the budget is part of the strategy. It is necessary because we must demonstrate to the public, foreign investors and businesspeople who will create jobs in Ireland or who will provide money for borrowings, that we can manage our way out of the downturn. Basic economics dictate there will be peaks and troughs and when the economy inevitably picks up, we must be in a position to take advantage of that situation. It does not matter who is sitting in the Taoiseach’s position. The decisions he must make now and in the future are not easy but, as with a business or household budget, one cannot spend what one is not taking in. Over the past decade, Fianna Fa´il has reduced the national debt. Where would we be if we had not done that? Many countries are saying they are in a worse position than Ireland. We have a proven track record in prudent management and we should take advantage of that. When times are good, people have a different outlook and, therefore, we cannot blame people who are concerned and worried. Every day I meet people in Dublin city who are greatly concerned about what will happen over the next six months, never mind over the next two or three years. There are areas in which investment needs to be maintained and, where possible, we must ensure such investment takes place. Education is the key. Successive Governments have invested in the education system and third level graduates are much more confident and educated. We must provide them with a future. People who have lost their jobs in recent times must be supported and, while we accept the number unemployed will increase, we must do something about it through training, further education, upskilling and so on, which must be paid for. A banking system is necessary to run the economy but it needs to be overhauled and the Government is engaged in this process. The vast majority of bank officials are talented and they do a good job. A small number lost the run of themselves in recent years. Everybody accepts that and we must deal with that. Practices must change radically and customers must be protected. When one considers how banks have changed the way they do business, for instance, over the past decade, it is no wonder people do not trust them. They have done everything to discourage customers from using branches. One almost needs an appointment to talk to a teller. They have changed the way they do business and this has resulted in people losing trust in them. This issue must be tackled. We are in a particularly tough place but the most vulnerable in our society must continue to be protected. Fianna Fa´il ensured pensions and social welfare rates increased over recent years as well as an expansion of services. Special needs assistants did not exist ten years ago but they play a significant role in our society today. We must protect such services and the only way to do so is to ensure money is available at the end of each fiscal year to pay for them. In the present climate, it must be ensured that the changes that are made are seen to be equitable. Many people have said they are willing to make sacrifices and we must tap into the acceptance that we are where we are and we need to do what we need to do. This is another step in the Government’s plan.

718 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

People cannot be blamed for being worried. The Government must strike the correct balance between the amount it takes out of the economy to pay for services and social welfare payments and protecting jobs, while encouraging employers to create and retain jobs. We need businesspeople who are willing to take a chance to get into the marketplace and sell. The more we support such people, the more we will get back in the long run. The Government has a plan but we must have the courage to stick to it and to implement it.

Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh: We are now in the course of an entrenched equality crisis which, like our society for years, is characterised by extreme income inequality, a gross concentration of wealth at the top and the persistent experience of discrimination among key groups, including lone parents, the non-Irish, people with disabilities and the unemployed. It is also characterised by the absence of any demonstrable Government ambition to achieve meaningful socio- economic equality, the manifestly unfair distribution of the burden of economic recovery which has been laid on the shoulders of the vulnerable the low and middle income workers and the ever-increasing working poor, and the active dismantling of the equality and human rights infrastructure. This Government sought and achieved the demise of the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism, NCCRI, the elimination of the Combat Poverty agency, the sole independent agency responsible for those in poverty and for economic equality, and the decimating cuts in the budgets of the Equality Authority and the Human Rights Com- mission. The Government has further threatened those in the community and voluntary sector who advocate equality. The accountability of the State is being actively undermined. This trend must be reversed. During times of recession the risk of discrimination and experience of inequality increase. Various studies demonstrate that equality is good for business. It increases productivity and is good for the country because it enhances social solidarity. The upcoming budget must be sub- jected to an equality impact assessment. It must be used as an opportunity to introduce an effective equality infrastructure incorporating anti-discrimination work and redistribution. International income ratios are similarly grotesque. In 1980 the highest earning executives in the United States earned 33 times the average industrial wage. By the 1990s their earnings had increased and risen to 100 times the average industrial wage and by 2005 these high earners were taking home an income 50 times that of the average worker. This was replicated in Britain where the ratio of the chief executives’ pay to that of average staff members was 98:1. The distribution of wealth and income in this State is obscene as the spectrum of income ratios has moved in a direction comparable with that of the US and Britain. Revenue figures demonstrate that 30% of all income earned in 2008 went into the pockets of just 6% of the population. Almost 1,500 people earned an average of \2.4 million each last year at a time when the average industrial wage was a little over \30,000 a year. The upcoming budget, and every budget thereafter, must consciously and actively work towards a radical reduction in this income gap. This is the patriotic duty of the Government. Excess wealth must be taxed. The grotesque expenditure of \50 million on a yacht or a helicopter or several holiday mansions, while people live in squalor and poverty, and those with special needs are denied special classes to save a fraction of this sum must be addressed. The Fingletons, Smurfits and U2s of this world must be made pay their fair share of tax. The upcoming budget must rectify and reverse the recent Fianna Fa´il and Green Party attack on children with special educational needs. Last month I received many e-mails from parents, teachers and students in my constituency who were angry, depressed and despairing at the abolition of the special needs classes. I visited several of the affected schools and saw the benefit of those classes. Now the Government is intent on consigning those children to the scrapheap again. This cut will directly affect hundreds of children who will lose the vital support 719 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh.] they need to achieve a robust education. Thousands more children will be affected by the extraordinary additional pressure on teachers already working in overcrowded mainstream classes. Robbing children of their futures for a paltry saving of \6 million when executives of publicly guaranteed banks are walking around with \1 million bonuses and multi-million euro pensions is obscene. I asked the Minister for Education and Science to point to an educational rationale to underpin this ruthless decision. He could not do so. He claims that the needs of these children will be adequately met in the mainstream classes with limited learning support. That is not true. He has no understanding of special needs or the educational system. Parents know best. One couple who contacted me said they know that this will have a detrimental effect on their child’s education and social learning. Their son had been in a mainstream class in the past but a special class is without doubt the best place for him to learn, develop and thrive, to become a responsible and independent young adult reaching his full potential, an opportunity which should never be denied to any child. This budget should be used as an opportunity to reverse the cuts in special needs education and reinstate the classes for those with mild general learning disabilities. The budget should also be used as an opportunity to raise fairly and progressively the revenues desperately required. It should be used to remove the pension levy which is manifestly unfair and creates real hardship for many already struggling to make ends meet. In addition to putting people’s homes at risk, it diminishes the spending power of a significant number of those who remain in employment thus further stifling the economy and resulting in more job losses in the private sector. The levy never concerned pensions. It was a form of unfair and selective taxation. Certain categories of workers subject to this levy will derive no additional pension benefit, for example, many fixed-term contract workers, including researchers. It also hits local councillors although they do not receive a salary, and the income of the brave retained fire service workers who are paid only when called out. The Minister has an interest in overseas development aid, ODA, and attended a briefing on the matter earlier today. I appeal to him not to cut ODA. This is a matter of life and death for many around the world whom Ireland has thankfully helped in the past. We have an opportunity to continue to do so. I urge the Government not only to retain but to increase the ODA figure thus achieving the promised 0.7% of GDP sooner without having to put in a large extra sum of money. By doing so we will set a standard not only for ourselves but also for the European Union and our partners there and in the rest of the developed world. We will send a message of solidarity to those who are much worse off than us even in this recession. We have traded on our flathiu´ ileachas and our reputation worldwide. We have been generous and do not have the imperialist past that many of our neighbours do. We can embarrass them and force them to follow our lead. We should not be selfish. We can save lives, improve human security and increase goodwill for Ireland. I dtaca leis an Ghaeilge, o´ nmeíd ata´ cloiste agam, ta´ ciorruithe de bhreis is 20% i gceist do chuile eagras Gaeilge. Ma´ smaoinı´tear ar an meíd a chaitear ar mhadraı´ agus ar chapaill ra´sa i gcomparaíd leis an chaiteachas ar eagrais Ghaeilge, is leír ca´ bhfuil tosaıóchtaı´ an Rialtais. Caithfear dı´riu´ ar chosaint a dheánamh ar an Ghaeilge agus ar an Ghaeltacht go haírithe san am seo mar nı´ gha´ ach feáchaint ar an staideár teangeolaıóchta a rinneadh le deánaı´ chun an dainseár don teanga naísiu´ nta a fheiceaíl. Caithfear deánamh cinnte nach gcuirfear leis an dainseár sin don teanga sa chruacha´s ata´ romhainn faoi la´thair. Now is not the time to cut budgets in the fight against illegal drugs. To do so would be detrimental to the justice programme and to the development of communities. Times may be hard but in the past recession has bred drug abuse for which society pays a huge price. We 720 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) have an opportunity to at the very least retain the money dedicated to tackling the drug problem. That is my appeal to the Government. I hope people have been listening.

Deputy Michael Moynihan: I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate that is taking place now in every corner of this country. We speak about the dire economic circumstances in which we find ourselves, the pathway we must put in place and the proper foundation to build for the future of our country. A number of speakers have said the world is facing one of the greatest crises since the 1929 Wall Street crash and the subsequent Great Depression. All the graphs world economists produce show us that the figures of today are proportionate to those pertaining in that period of the late 1920s and early 1930s. Many similarities can be seen between the lead up to that crash and elements in the world economy today. Our current considerable difficulties concern our public finances, our trading and our trading partners. This is particularly the case because we are an open economy that exports 80% of our products into markets in the UK, Europe and the United States. These countries are all in recession and are pulling back from exporting. As many speakers have noted, confidence has gone from the economy. People are not confident. They think ten or 15 times before they spend money. Prior to this our difficulty, especially during the latter years of the Celtic tiger, was that people spent money without too much thought. That may be a side issue but economies have contracted and confidence has gone from the world economy. How can we ensure there is confidence in our economy in the future? We must set a number of matters straight and the most important of these is to get our public finances in order and ensure they remain so, permanently. Other matters relate to the banks. Many commentators, economists and, indeed, ordinary people have been disgusted, frightened and shocked by many of the events that have taken place throughout the banking industry. Many of these related to the implementation of regulation and the question remains whether principle-based regulation is strong and concise enough to ensure compliance In many countries regulation went down the same road as ours and the real difficulty lay in separating the regulator from the Central Bank and putting in a new regulatory framework. Ordinary people had a sense that somebody was watching the house because there was a regulatory system and they saw the media commenting on the Financial Regulator regulating the banking system. The Celtic tiger purred on and credit was freely available in our economy but we know now that this was not the case. As we try to get our economy back on track, a great number of people have mentioned the importance of getting more credit flowing freely within the economy and making more money available to small and medium sized businesses. There is a need to get money and credit in place because there is a significant squeeze in respect of overdraft and other facilities that financial houses across the country are making available to small and medium sized businesses. However, there is also a need to ensure that the reckless lending practised by certain financial institutions, especially in the Anglo-Saxon world — Ireland, the UK and the United States — will never again be allowed to happen. Many people have said this is the first time the situation has disintegrated but I have stated on many occasions that it is not the first time. It has happened before. The credit squeeze is having a detrimental effect. Heretofore, the agricultural industry was one of the pillars we could always rely on in times of recession. The dairy industry is under fierce pressure at present, especially the Irish Dairy Board which has acted almost as a financier for the industry across the country. The banks are now squeezing available credit even though product is being sold through the board and co-ops around the country, particularly the smaller ones, have been able to access their accounts, at whatever stage. Now the banks and other 721 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Michael Moynihan.] financial institutions are squeezing them. The Minister should be very concerned about this. Discussions are ongoing but the dairy industry is a significant and vital one and prices for milk and milk products are hugely deflated around the world, causing enormous pressure to these people. There must be freedom of credit here. The situation arises directly from the credit crunch, the mismanagement of the financial institutions and the lack of proper and accountable regulatory framework. We must remember those economies, particularly during the 1930s, that tried to balance their books and took so much from the economy they almost killed it. There is a creeping return to the protectionist policies that were pursued in the Great Depression. Given the strength of the European Union of which we are so solidly a member, that will be stopped but we must be mindful not to go towards such a regime and must continue to work and trade in global markets, try to build up our trade and make sure we have the markets. Concerning research and development in our country, we must be very innovative as we go into the future and new ideas must be thought out. It was grand when the Celtic tiger roared and everything turned to money but we must have new ideas now and new vision to go forward and ensure there is a sustainable market for the product we are building and for all we can create in this country. We have always been a very innovative nation and have been to the fore in ideas and we must ensure we give people an opportunity with training and grants for research and development. As we face this budget, and because of the difficulties that have occurred, particularly during the past six or seven months, many people have cited as factors the global economy and downturn. It is true that we face the biggest financial crisis in the world economy since the late 1920s and early 1930s. Those are the facts of the matter. We are a small open economy trading into those dire financial situations and we must have the resilience and the leadership to go forward. Last week we saw the new US President give a reception and warm welcome to the Irish nation. We must go back to the very strengths that created the Celtic tiger in the first place and the expansionist policies we had in the 1960s and onwards. We must return to those strengths and rekindle what we have. We have a very well-educated workforce that is ready to participate and an education system that has benefited us considerably. A number of measures should be taken to get our fundamentals right. The first is to have our financial system in order. The one we had did our reputation untold damage in the world economy. We must have concern about that. We have to ensure our research and development are to the forefront and that we have new and innovative ideas. I would be concerned about the issues affecting the agricultural industry, particularly the dairy industry. There are significant difficulties caused by the financiers, the banks and the dairy board which need to be examined. Credit must be made available for co-operatives in order that they can draw down against their products. The tough measures in the budget should be as fair as possible to all society.

Deputy Dan Neville: I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I also wish to raise the issue of farm incomes which are under serious downward pressure in 2009. It is important to flag this issue prior to the budget to ensure the Minister responds to the needs of the agricultural industry which has served this country since the foundation of the State and before and has supported many farm families. Unfortunately there have been many changes in recent decades but the current situation is dire, and I wish to raise our concerns with the Minister. The Central Statistics Office figures for February 2009 show that national farm income was down by about 12.4% in 2008. The main factors which affected farm income last year were significantly increased input costs coupled with a fall in output prices for key sectors, including 722 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) dairying, which is of enormous significance to the economy of my constituency in County Limerick. Dairying is very prominent in the area and contributes significantly to the economic wellbeing of the constituency. Farm incomes are projected to fall significantly further this year with major and sustained downward pressures across the major commodities. For example, producer prices in the dairying sector have dropped below the cost of production and even the most efficient producers will generate little or no income from their production in 2009. The situation needs urgent attention in that the intervention prices of milk at the current level of 20 cent to 21 cent per litre is inadequate to give any return to the dairying community producing it. The effective intervention viable price is around 27 cent to 28 cent. I ask the Minister to examine this with a view to ensuring the survival of the dairying industry. The previous speaker referred to the problems affecting the co-ops and I reiterate that the absence of working capital has created enormous pressures for the dairy co-ops especially at peak times. The Minister should endeavour to ensure there is a response by the banks to the needs of the dairying industry. The depreciation of sterling against the euro and the retail price war have also impacted on the return to the dairy farmer. I also wish to raise the issue of the mark-up on farm products by the supermarkets. The various farming organisations, especially the two with which I deal regularly, the Irish Farmers’ Association and the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers’ Association, over a number of decades have raised the issue of the mark-up price, the price to the farmer of produce leaving the farm gate and the cost to the customer in supermarkets. With the present downturn in the dairying sector being an issue, prices for cattle, vegetables and other commodities are falling, due to a large extent to the depreciation of sterling against the euro. The Government decision in last October’s budget to cut funding for essential farm schemes also adds significantly to the fall in farm incomes this year. While input prices have turned down, this has not matched the downturn in producer prices. It is estimated that due to a combination of falling prices and the October 2008 budget cuts, farm income in 2009 is set to fall at least by another 12.5%. Based on the current outlook, farm income could drop below an average income of \20,000 for a full-time farmer and to below \16,000 for a part-time farmer. Employment in the agricultural sector has proven more resilient to the downturn than other sectors. During 2008, employment in agriculture fell from 118,000 to 116,000, a drop of only 2,000. This is in marked contrast to the significant fall in employment in other sectors. The numbers in the agricultural sector can be maintained and sustained and increased. With the right support from Government, there is an opportunity here to ensure that the numbers employed in agriculture can be sustained and increased. The absence of alternative employment in construction will result in a return to farming for a large number of young people. Family farms have simply no more to give as incomes are under serious pressure and any further cuts in farm schemes will be a direct hit on already low farm family incomes. I am flagging the Minister that the cuts in the last budget were highly significant for the small farmers, the small to middle income producers and any further cuts in the forthcoming budget will have very serious consequences for the livelihoods of those in the agricultural community. Farm families are facing increased income pressures in 2009 and require all existing EU and national supports to be retained in order to remain viable. The majority of these schemes are co-funded by the EU and are vital to farm incomes, and farmers have made their investment plans and bank repayments commitments on the basis of their continuation. To preserve jobs in the sector, to help maintain family farm incomes at a viable level and to keep families out of the social welfare system, the Government must avoid further cuts in essential farm schemes. 723 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Dan Neville.]

A number of cuts in farm schemes were introduced in the previous budget and these will impact directly on farm incomes this year. At public meetings, concerned farmers raised three areas of concern, namely, the suspension of the EU support measures to promote structural reform and encourage new entrants — the early retirement scheme and the installation aid scheme — the cutback of \34 million in the disadvantaged areas scheme which represents a significant loss for the 37,000 farmers affected — these are not middle income farmers but low income farmers — and the cutbacks in the new payment rate for the new suckler cow welfare scheme. The decision to suspend entry to the early retirement scheme and installation aid scheme must be reversed as the long-term cost to the economy will be greater than any short- term savings achieved. A number of farm families had bona fide plans in place to avail of these schemes. In this April budget I urge the Government to make provision to fully discharge its responsibilities to these farm families. This is an issue which raises its head again and again when we meet the people involved. These farm families had plans in place and had expenditure completed in order to avail of the schemes referred to and when the schemes were cut it left them at a great disadvantage. I urge the Minister for Finance to make provision in the budget to fully discharge what I believe is the Government’s responsibility to these farm families. The cutbacks in the payment rate for the disadvantaged areas scheme will disproportionately affect lower income farmers and must be reversed. The \80 rate per cow for the suckler cow welfare scheme must be maintained and the \250 million allocated to the scheme must be honoured. The Minister for Health and Children has decided to cut the allocation to the National Suicide Prevention Office by 12.5%. This is a retrograde step at a time of recession. Inter- national research from 1897 has shown that there is an increase in suicide and psychiatric and other emotional conditions. We would urge the Minister to respond to that need and increase the funding. We again refer to the precedent exercised by the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Mary Hanafin, who has given in the region of \11 million extra to families to deal with the interpersonal crises in relation to people affected by the recession, particularly those who have been rendered unemployed. The unemployed are six times more likely to take their own lives than those in employment, and the young and middle-aged have a higher pro- pensity to commit suicide in those circumstances than other groups. I appreciate the time I was allowed by the Ceann Comhairle to raise these two issues.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Deputy Dick Roche): Ireland’s economic wellbeing, indeed our economic future will be built on four pillars: a public expenditure system that is sustainable; a tax system suited to our present needs; a banking system that is functional, focused and properly regulated; and a social support system that is just and equitable. The upcoming budget must be a statement not just to the people of this country but to those who examine our economic performance, that we are serious about addressing the challenges and that we have a programme which we will put in place over the coming years to address each of these issues. Public expenditure is an area that requires special attention. Ireland’s current rate of public expenditure is not sustainable. A state like any household or business cannot spend that which it does not have. It is wrong for politicians, commentators or interest group leaders to suggest that Ireland uniquely can come through the current economic maelstrom without some pain. It is a disservice to the people who elect us to this House and who expect us to show leadership to suggest that somehow or other there is a magic formula that can be applied to our current condition. There is not and we all know that to be the case. In the context of our discussion on public expenditure, I was particularly pleased to read this morning that the Irish 724 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Congress of Trade Unions has agreed to look positively at the Taoiseach’s invitation to take part in talks. At a time when our economy is faltering, I could not understand the logic of closing down the country for a day of inaction. I say this as one who has been a lifelong supporter of the trade union movement. While I fully appreciate the pressures that exist on trade union leaders, I believe that unions and Government sitting around the table with other social partners is the best way to find an appropriate way forward. The editorial in The Irish Times yesterday said it all. It stated that the extent of the economic downturn has been so violent and dramatic that this was not a time to retreat to traditional attitudes. On the question of public expenditure there are two elements in the current deficit and this should be recognised as we discuss the extent of the gulf that has to be bridged. The first is the cyclical element and that arises when people lose their jobs or when economic activity drops, taxation revenue ceases to flow and social support costs increase. There is little that can be done in the short term to address the cyclical element of the public expenditure problem and that should be recognised. There is, however, a second element to the deficit, namely, the structural element. The structures of our public expenditure and of our taxation system both require urgent attention. It is clear that we have entered into a new economic landscape and structural adjustments in public expenditure must be made to reflect this. Equally, we need to make structural adjustments in our taxation system. Addressing expenditure by making it clear that we have a coherent programme to address its structural deficiencies over the period ahead will send out a powerful message to our trading partners and to the international markets that we are serious about resolving the problems we currently face. Such a clear message will benefit everybody in this country. It is clear, also, that we need to make fundamental alterations in our taxation system — the tax structure that served us well in the boom times is no longer appropriate to the new conditions in which we live. Contrary to popular myth, Ireland’s current taxation system on individuals is remarkably progressive. The top earners pay most of the personal tax take and an enormous proportion of income earners are outside the tax net. These arrangements worked during the boom years, but now we are operating in an entirely different environment, and they have to be examined. Our taxation structure needs to reflect our current position and our immediate prospects. Changes will have to be made. Everybody will have to carry some of the burden but the heaviest imposition must obviously fall on those who have the greatest capacity to pay. New tax impositions must be fair. Nobody wants to pay more tax but the public will accept change if they believe the burden is being fairly distributed. Turning away from personal taxation, it is clear that our tax system needs to be broadened. If we are to aspire to public services such as those offered in other advanced European nations, we must also look at the funding arrangements that apply there. If we are to remain the master of our own affairs in this country, we have to take the decisions that will steer our economy through the worldwide recession. That will require us taking both timely and politically difficult decisions about taxation and expenditure cuts. That is the reality that we face. It is a reality that we cannot dodge and neither should we try. As in the case of public expenditure, firm decisions on restructuring our taxation system would send out a clear signal to markets and to our international partners. As with public expenditure, the changes cannot all be achieved in the upcoming budget, but a start should be made there. The third element I mentioned was a functioning banking system, and we should be in no doubt that the one we have is malfunctioning. We need to re-establish in the shortest possible time a functioning, credible and working banking system. In recent years leaders within our banking system have behaved shamefully. Greed has replaced logic. Basic banking rules that 725 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Dick Roche.] stood the test of time right back to the Medici family were simply torn up for a “quick buck”. This was not, of course, unique to Ireland, and the global recession was triggered by the collapse of the US and other international financial sectors. The report by the French central banker, Jacques de Larosie`re, provides an excellent analysis of the cause of the banking and financial crisis and identifies the key issues that now need to be addressed on the supervisory front. The recommendations made in the de Larosie`re report need to be given careful consideration, particularly in this country and throughout the eurozone. The report, highlights one key fact, namely, that those who argued, and some are still about, that we needed lighter regulation in the financial services industry were wrong. Regulation needs to be tightened at national level — we have to accept that there have been some appalling failures in the Irish financial regulatory system — at regional level within the European Union and at world level. In a highly globalised industry such as financial services, common regulatory systems and fundamentally sound rules must be applied universally. This again highlights the importance to Ireland of staying at the heart of the European Union and within the eurozone. At a domestic level, we were given a very interesting insight into practices in Irish banking yesterday at an Oireachtas committee. This was the second occasion when an internal auditor from Allied Irish Bank had the courage to go on record and portray what was happening behind closed doors within the group. In considering a new regulatory regime for banking, consideration needs to be given to protecting whistleblowers from within the system. It was appalling to read yesterday that the internal auditor as part of his severance arrangements was required to sign a confidentiality agreement. Enforced silence in the face of wrongdoing is not in the public interest. Whistleblowers should be protected where their actions serve the public interest and this is particularly the case in the banking sector. The social support system in this country is just inequitable and it must stay that way. Over the period of the boom years we have invested very heavily, and prudently, in developing public services. We now have an advanced social support system in which we can take real pride. In the case of the elderly, for example, Ireland, has better supports than those available in many other countries. This is as it should be and that is something that we should seek to protect. The very best way to protect core services is to reign in expenditure in areas which, although desirable, play a less central role. In controlling public expenditure, cuts must be targeted. A second element is the challenge of protecting jobs. A challenge we face is to protect as many jobs as possible and to restore competitiveness in order to protect jobs into the future. Caution is, therefore, necessary when we turn to the area of capital expenditure programmes. A balance must be struck between taking money out and protecting jobs and investing in the future. On the capital side, any savings that are to be made must, therefore, be measured against the overall effect of the reduction on the economy as a whole. If we look at the four areas I mentioned at the outset, there are two principles which, above all, must inform our actions, namely, firmness and fairness. We need to be firm in our resolve to reign in and contain the problems we have with our public expenditure. There is no other way to ensure our economic recovery and there is no other way to ensure the future both of those in jobs at present and those who will be seeking jobs in the period ahead. We simply cannot continue on the existing public expenditure path. The second principle is fairness. Everybody will need to be part of the battle to restore Ireland’s economic stability. Everybody will have to play their part. Our taxation system needs to change but it must change in a way that ensures that those who can bear the challenge carry 726 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) their fair share. Our tax system needs to fit to our new circumstances in a way which is based on the ability of people to pay. The period ahead will not be an easy one. The true extent of the challenge is, in all prob- ability, yet to be fully measured. One thing, however, is certain. If we pull together, we can weather this storm and if we make the changes that are necessary in terms of our tax structure and our public expenditure structure, Ireland will be in a good position to benefit from the recovery which will come in due course.

Deputy Pat Breen: I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak on this important matter. I have heard those statements from the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, and other members of the Government over and over but, unfortunately, they got it wrong last October. Over the weekend there were twin successes in the field of sport with the Grand Slam win in rugby and the win by our boxing star, Bernard Dunne. This gave the country a major boost. Last Saturday was one of Ireland’s greatest sporting days and proved that the world of sport can lead by example in saying “Yes we can”, to borrow the phrase used by a famous American man. We can have better days, we can recover and the country can get back on its feet. Our sporting heroes have shown great leadership and I congratulate them, in particular Marcus Horan, who is from Cloonlara and who kept the Clare representation going following on from Anthony Foley. It is a pity we do not have that same leadership in Government Buildings. Unfortunately, there is no roadmap or plan in Government Buildings on how to get the country back on the road to recovery. Did the Minister of State watch George Lee’s programme on how we blew the boom last Sunday night?

Deputy Dick Roche: The Malthusian economist.

Deputy Pat Breen: We all know how the coffers were emptied and how the Celtic tiger became extinct. Today’s edition of The Irish Times carries a survey on economic confidence in 19 countries across the eurozone. Some 39% of adults claim the Government is at fault for the ongoing crisis compared to the banking industry, 19%, the Central Bank, 12%, 5 o’clock and corporate creed, 7%. The number of people blaming the Government is significantly more than the global average. Why do the people believe the Government is at fault? The reality is that 78% of the people believe the Government is not doing enough and that its response to this crisis is totally inadequate. The country’s finances are in dire straits and a rapid response is needed. The Minister must come into the House on 7 April and address these issues in real terms. I fear we will probably get more of the same — a rehash of the same old half-baked ideas and the ordinary man and woman on the street beingforced to pay up while the bankers will walk away with huge bonus payments and no accountability. The budget must be fair and equitable and everybody must be willing to pay their fair share. Unemployment is a big issue. Live register figures at the end of February 2009 showed that 352,800 people were unemployed. We are losing jobs in every sector. In my region of the mid- west, the chairman of the Government-appointed task force, Denis Brosnan, predicts that 50,000 people could lose their jobs there before the end of the year. Yesterday, the media reported that Forfa´s predicts that 9,500 jobs will be lost in the region as a result of the closure of the Dell manufacturing plant. That is not scaremongering; these are the facts. Last week Dell announced that it will shed another 100 jobs in a research and development facility in Limerick on top of the 1,900 jobs lost. It is very worrying to see research and development jobs lost in the region. 727 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Pat Breen.]

However, there was some good news in the region. The Ta´naiste was in Intel in Shannon recently and announced 134 jobs in a research and development facility. I welcome that investment, which is good for the area. I had the privilege of being given a tour of the research and development facility to see first-hand the work being carried out there, which would amaze one as would the expertise and the calibre of graduates there. Unfortunately, many of the graduates are coming from abroad. There is a bright future for research and development in this country but we must invest in third level institutions and the Government must make the necessary resources available. Students must be encouraged to do mathematics and physics, otherwise companies requiring research and development graduates will be forced to employ graduates from abroad, which is happening at present. Our education system needs to be overhauled to deal with the competition out there. In regard to the potential job losses in companies associated with Dell, the Government should sit down with the mid-west task force because these companies could still have a role to play in supplying Dell’s emerging markets in Poland and other overseas locations. We should look carefully at this in order that most of the 9,500 jobs can be saved. The Government should do that to try to remedy the huge unemployment problem in the mid-west region which affects one in ten people. I believe every household has been affected. Last October we saw an unwarranted attack on the over-70s by this Government. The savings of \100 million targeted by the Government could have been achieved by a capitalisation grant to GPs and savings on prescribed drugs with a move to the generic area. Many of the older people to whom I have spoken have lost huge retirement investments over the past 12 months. The decision of the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Hanafin, not to proceed with the national strategy for carers has been universally condemned. The Carers Association described it as a slap in the face. There are more than 161,000 family carers in the country, 4,671 of whom care for family members in my constituency of Clare. They contribute over \2.5 billion to the economy each year and their invaluable work is not adequately recognised or acknowledged. In my constituency, a support structure is provided for family carers under the umbrella of Caring for Carers Clare which does trojan work that often goes unnoticed. The carers’ network in west Clare, which is based in Kilkee, is extremely worried about the possibility of cutbacks in the carer’s allowance for pensioners. This payment is not a bonus or a handout but is hard earned by people who care for loved ones. Pensioners are already under attack by the Govern- ment. There is a very small amount of money involved and I urge the Minister to take these points on board. My colleague, Deputy Neville, spoke about farmers about whom I also wish to speak. Last week I met a delegation from Clare IFA. In 2008 national farm incomes fell by 15%. There are 3,752 farmers in Clare, with an average beef cow herd of 17.82 cows, who were hard hit last time with the reduction of \713 in the suckler cow welfare scheme. Some 6,121 farmers in Clare have been hit with a reduction of at least \979 in disadvantaged area payments. The outlook for farming for the rest of the year is not good. There is a reduction in milk prices and farmers’ incomes have dropped considerably. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith must clarify the situation regarding the REPS 4 scheme. There are already farmers who signed up to the farm waste management scheme who will only receive 40% of the payments they are owed before the end of this year. I ask the Minister to clarify the situation regarding REPS. I tabled a parliamentary question on the issue recently and he told me only \355 million had been put aside for REPS. The 728 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Minister must make it clear that the budget will not be affected by the proposed cutbacks. Many farmers are depending on that money. I met many hoteliers over the weekend and the last few days and they are extremely worried about the tourism industry this year. We understand there is a global aviation recession but the wisdom of introducing the air travel tax at this time must be questioned. This is something I have raised with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan on several occasions but, unfortunately, it has fallen on deaf ears. Is the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism aware of the extent of the problems facing the tourism industry? There are serious concerns out there, of which I think he is unaware. I understand several group tours from the US have cancelled their trips this year. This tax is counterproductive and at this late stage I appeal to the Ministers for Arts, Sport and Tourism and Finance to think about the damage they are doing to tourism in regional areas, an effect to which hoteliers have testified. This is a defining moment in history. There is too much at stake here and it is important the Government get it right on this occasion. There are other areas I would like to have touched on but unfortunately we do not have the time.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Martin Mansergh): There is general agreement on the depth of the economic and financial crisis facing the country and the necessity of taking further action now to, to the greatest extent possible, lift some of the uncertainty. There is no merit in half measures. The unprecedented global downturn forms the backdrop to the problems we face and has no doubt massively compounded them. The differing analysis of causes, though important in terms of lessons for the future, must not distract us from taking fair and balanced necessary corrective action now. I stand on the side of those who seek a more equal society. I note the research which suggests people in such societies enjoy, on average, greater opportunities, a higher quality of life and better living standards, as well as a high degree of social stability. The model where people were almost encouraged to become extremely wealthy and to col- lect extraordinary rewards in the belief that everyone else would benefit to some degree has collapsed, causing widespread difficulty and hardship. Not only did we allow our tax base to become seriously eroded and far too dependent on speculative activity, but we all loosened our grip on the purse strings without always ensuring a proper return, the best value for money or sufficient prioritisation. Many business and professional people were so well rewarded they had more money than they knew sensibly what to do with, while others were still going seriously short. Not too many called on us to slow down and many voices suggested we should be going even faster. However, as The Economist, not always a champion of the Irish economy, pointed out this week, to focus on the bursting of the housing bubble would be to miss the lasting gains that were made. There has been a lot of worthwhile investment in education and training, health and transport and environment infrastructure, as well as in arts, sport and heritage, which will stand to us for a long time to come. We have also identified many more gains which would be lasting if we could still afford them. More than once, the European Commission complimented us on the strategic way we were spending our Structural and Cohesion Fund allocations, although we no longer enjoy those. We used the opportunity to drive down our national debt to a very low level and put aside, at its peak, more than \20 billion in the National Pensions Reserve Fund, without which we would have found it very difficult to handle the banking crisis, in addition to the fiscal and employment ones. 729 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Martin Mansergh.]

What we must do and are already doing is very clear. We are now reaping the consequences of being in the eurozone. There is no dispute that we have lost competitiveness far beyond the natural consequence of catching up with average EU incomes. This occurred particularly in recent years. As members of the eurozone we are prevented from devaluation. The only alternative is to achieve an equivalent effect by accepting lower incomes and salaries and driving down costs. Remarkably, we are now experiencing, for the first time in our lives, significant deflation which will mitigate, to some degree, the effect of pay freezes and income reductions, whereas our UK neighbours have inflation of more than 3% due to the weakness of sterling. The same article in The Economist states “Ireland’s response to austerity goes against the grain” and that “Ireland seeks salvation in lower wages, even though its households are also heavily indebted”. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan is quoted as saying, “The key is to turn the model back to export-led growth”, a point he has made on many occasions. With more realistic and competitive costs and wages, companies and investors may look again at the advantages of locating export functions in Ireland rather than outsourcing them to distant countries which have problems of their own. The Economist also states, citing the late 1980s, that “Ireland has form when it comes to retrenchment”. It is quite a positive assessment of our current situation in all the circumstances. As a small country we have shown, on many occasions, a determination to survive economically and overcome difficulties. In the 1920s we established basic financial viability following the chaos of civil war. In the 1930s we came through the economic war, having built up an indigenous industrial base. We survived the Second World War thanks to tremendous diplomatic skill, backbone and economic organisation. In the late 1950s we took stock and changed around our whole economic strategy, which was not working in the post-war world. We tackled high debt, low employment and bad industrial relations in the late 1980s. There is no doubt we can do what is needed today, if possible through co-operation and agreement with the social partners. I am very glad there is to be a return to talks and that the national day of action on 30 March has been called off. We should be grateful for the understanding of our EU partners for this unprecedented situation in which we all find ourselves. We have been given until 2013 to bring the public finances back on track. When we come back to the Lisbon treaty we need to remember the value of belonging to a partnership of neighbouring nations, including the inner circle of the eurozone. What we have to do now is bound to be difficult. Most people do not have significant room for manoeuvre or reserves. A few, but not enough, do. Most of what we have to achieve at the end of all of this is to put ourselves on a sounder footing. We will again be able to compete with advantage with the rest of the world which, assuredly, has plenty of problems of its own. A revival of confidence in our ability to turn the corner will help us get through a difficult period. We need the maximum social understanding and solidarity in rebuilding a true social market economy.

Deputy Liz McManus: We all know this budget will be tough but we have no guarantee it will be fair. In fact, the record of this Government so far has been to attack the vulnerable and protect the powerful. It is a Government bloated with too many Ministers of State, but there is the honourable exception of the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dick Roche who has a valuable task and I wish him well in terms of the future challenge he will face. 730 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Dick Roche: That is worth a high preference vote for the Deputy.

Deputy Liz McManus: I will hold the Minister of State to that.

Deputy Dick Roche: Deputy McManus and I look after each other.

Deputy Liz McManus: One of the problems is that there are so many Ministers of State that they are falling over each other. Meanwhile, the Government has been using private consultants to a ludicrous degree but there is little to show for all the money spent. The Government flounders from action to reaction when its decisions prove inadequate to the task of leading us out of the quagmire in which we find ourselves. While thousands join the dole queues, thousands more worry that their jobs are in jeopardy. Yet we are still waiting for the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coughlan, to provide us with the jobs strategy that has been sought and demanded across the board. At a social level, while the elderly and the young are battered by the effects of cutbacks, there are examples of greed and excess continuing uncontrolled. The payment of a bonus of \1 million to Mr. Michael Fingleton is an obscenity that demands swift and effective retribution. Instead, what we get from the Taoiseach is a promise of a report within a month. While residents in housing estates are suffering from endemic anti-social behaviour that goes unpunished, we have the ludicrous sight of gardaı´ entering a radio station premises to force information to be handed over in regard to an artist who played a practical joke on the Royal Hibernian Academy and the National Gallery of Ireland. It is difficult to believe that gardaı´ have nothing better to do. The craven apology given out by RTE for its temerity in covering the artist’s caper only serves to undermine public confidence that our national radio station is truly independent of political interference. Is it any wonder that recent research shows us to be the most pessimistic people in Europe? When it comes to debating this or any other issue, what is required above all is public confidence. The trust of the people has been totally undermined by the way in which the Govern- ment fuelled the worst excesses of the property bubble and banking scandals before proving itself so defective in coping with the impact on our economy when the bubble burst and the banks were exposed for their part in the debacle. There must be lean and keen government that offers leadership to a demoralised public. A general election would at least give a mandate to a new Administration to begin the reconstruc- tion of public confidence. We may get that opportunity. In the meantime, however, we are faced with a budget in which certain key issues must be addressed. The first and foremost must be the creation and maintenance of jobs. It costs more than \20,000 to support a person who is out of work. The bulk of those unemployed are construction workers. The Minister and I have seen the most extraordinary mushrooming of people out of work in our constituency. The dole queues are so long that social welfare offices cannot cope with the demand. Many of the construction workers who have lost their jobs could be employed in the implementation of the many essential projects that require to be undertaken, including the building of schools and hospitals, the upgrading of our housing stock to make it more energy efficient and the implementation of improvements to the living conditions of the elderly and disabled in our communities. The allocation for the disabled persons grant scheme is a pittance. The little that was available has now disappeared.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: It is a disgrace.

Deputy Liz McManus: I am aware of an 86 year old woman in my constituency who is ill but ambulant. She wishes to remain living in her home with her elderly husband. She has sought a 731 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Liz McManus.] grant to install a downstairs toilet, which is a fairly basis provision, because the existing bath- room in their old house is up three flights of stairs. I can do nothing for this woman. I am ashamed to live in a country in the 21st century which cannot meet the needs of a person who has lived through good times and bad and who only seeks the dignity of living in her home for the last years of her life.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Hear, hear.

Deputy Liz McManus: We cannot provide the basic provisions to allow her to do so. There is something fundamentally obscene and offensive about this inability to protect the vulnerable. We must look at these types of yardsticks in seeking to measure Government performance and in assessing whether or not the forthcoming budget is fair. What is the impact on those who do not have the power of bankers or the influence of builders and developers? In one sense, such people are not even on the radar. The only power they have is that of their vote. They should have an important position in our society but instead they have been betrayed and denied in a despicable fashion. The forthcoming budget must be judged primarily by the yardstick of whether it ensures that those on the outside are supported. Those who care for the elderly and disabled, including mothers with autistic children and people looking after spouses with Alzheimer’s disease, came to Leinster House today to make their case and to express their deep disappointment at the Government’s refusal to publish a national carer’s strategy. It is a testament to their spirit that rather than whining ineffectively, they instead put forward an entire set of proposals that are cost neutral. I urge the Government to give those proposals serious consideration. For example, formal recognition of family carers would make a difference without involving any cost to the Exchequer. Another proposal was for a sharing of the carer’s allowance where people are sharing caring duties on a part-time basis. Other simple and practical proposals include the introduction of appropriate quality standards and training for carers and the provision of a website. I hope they will be taken on board. I welcome the introduction of the home energy efficiency scheme, for which an allocation of \50 million has been made by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. The significant and welcome interest in this scheme is evident from the 94,000 queries that have been logged by Sustainable Energy Ireland. While I appreciate that many people cannot afford to carry out the insulation work, even taking into account the grant, there are many others for whom this provision will be sufficient to allow them to proceed with the work that will reduce their own energy bills as well as reducing the national energy bill and providing construction jobs. I listened with interest to hear whether the Minister, Deputy Ryan, would offer some commitment that funding for the scheme will be safeguarded for next year. He has observed on other occasions that interest in the scheme is growing and that an increased allocation may be required next year. I am not convinced he will able to deliver the funding required to carry this scheme through.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: I propose to share time with Deputy Flynn.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Charlie O’Connor): Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: This debate provides an opportunity to hear the positions of the various parties before the upcoming budget. While the Government is determined to 732 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) take the right actions for the country in difficult times, I have yet to hear any good practical suggestions from the Opposition.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: There have not been too many suggestions from Deputy White’s side of the House. Her party has been in government long enough at this stage.

Acting Chairman: Deputy White should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: When Deputy White needles us like that, we must be allowed to respond.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: The statements of the finance spokespersons of the main Opposition parties last night included not one constructive proposal for what should be included in the budget on 7 April.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Deputy is forgetting that her party has Ministers in Cabinet.

Acting Chairman: Deputy, please. I ask Deputy White to proceed.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: The only constructive thing I heard——

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: What are they doing there for God’s sake? The Green Party is not in Opposition, but in Government.

Acting Chairman: I will protect Deputy White as much as I can. Perhaps she might not entice interruptions.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: I hope I will have my time uninterrupted. I heard one constructive suggestion from Sinn Fe´in about recent job proposals. The coming budget must strike a delicate balance — like a high wire act——

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: High wire is right.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: ——between raising more revenue in a sustainable way and cutting expenditure where justifiable and providing new incentives and confidence in the economy. On the tax-raising side, the upcoming budget must be built on the progressive changes to the tax code during the lifetime of the Government. We need an emphasis on getting those most in positions to contribute to bear the load without making taxation too burdensome down the chain. Increases on capital gains tax, DIRT and the levy on second homes were all examples in the last budget and more most follow in this budget. I look forward to the recommendations of the Commission on Taxation on how we can progress new taxes in the future.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I will bet she does. She wants to shelter behind it.

Acting Chairman: Please, Deputy.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: It was established at the behest of the Green Party in case the Deputy did not know.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Government is looking for hits on the public.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: The Deputy should listen to me because I have something very important to say to him at the end.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I am listening to her. 733 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: On the spending side, vital infrastructural investment and front-line services must be preserved as must key infrastructural public transport projects.

Deputy Ulick Burke: Does the Deputy have a guarantee on that?

Acting Chairman: Please, Deputy.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: Those have been safeguarded to date by the Green Party, and it is important this remains the case.

Deputy Ulick Burke: What about the over 70s?

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: Spending on water services, housing and broadband are also vital to the development of communities and region as are front-line services in education. I want to speak about the carers. We were all at that carers’ briefing today.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: This will be interesting now. The Deputy should tell us about that.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: It is very interesting if the Deputy would listen. Carers save the State \2.5 billion per year. We need to protect that and we also want to protect the half carer’s allowance——

Deputy Ulick Burke: There will be very little appreciation for that.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: ——and in particular the Christmas bonus for social welfare recipients.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Is the Deputy going to give an assurance?

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: Noli me tangere. The Deputies opposite can translate that. That is my message while we are on social welfare. That little bit extra at Christmas is appreciated and shows the Government has a good heart beating. There is also the need for new stimuli for the green economy. I urge the Government to hasten its plans to develop the supports and grants available through State agencies for those looking to establish green and renewable energy enterprises. People are constantly coming up with amazingly innovative ideas for businesses in clean energy, waste management and other environmentally protective services. We must support them. Finally — this is for Deputy Durkan — there must be political leadership in this budget.

Deputy Ulick Burke: Who is the Deputy blaming now?

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: I believe we will lead.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Deputy should ask Deputy Gogarty. He will tell her about leadership.

Acting Chairman: Hold on. I ask Deputy White to proceed.

Deputy Ulick Burke: He steps in one day and out again.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Like Lannigan’s ball.

Acting Chairman: I ask Deputy White to proceed. 734 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: I hope the Acting Chairman will give me a few extra minutes. Oireachtas reform is being debated in the House tonight. However, in the rainbow coalition, the first action with Fine Gael in power was to expand the machinery of government. It got rid of one Minister of State — the one with responsibility for environmental protection — but increased from 15 to 17 the number of Ministers of State.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: At least the Ministers were visible. They could be seen here on the Order of Business. We now have invisible Ministers who do not come into the House.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: In addition, a “super junior” Minister position was created with a State car and programme manager as part of the package. In its programme for government, the rainbow coalition had a commitment to Da´il reform which would introduce a system where Da´il business hours would approximate to the ordinary working year. It had plans for a 34-hour, four-day week. It never happened.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Deputy is forgetting that her party is in power.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: Its commitment to reform of sitting days was so strong that in its first full year in government the summer recess was from 6 July to 4 October. In its first lease of life it also created two new Oireachtas committees——

Deputy Ulick Burke: This is the longest five-minute speech I have ever heard.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: ——and the salaries of programme managers. At that time there were 15 programme managers. We now have two.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Government has had more consultants than most people have good dinners.

Acting Chairman: I ask Deputy White to conclude, although I am using my discretion to allow her some time because of the interruptions.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: We noticed that. She has taken more than three steps.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: Their salaries were increased from £48,000 under the previous administration to a whopping £78,000 by the Fine Gael-led Government. The Opposition is in no position to start lecturing the Green Party on reform.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: We warned the Deputy about cycling in front of the squad cars.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: We have taken the lead on this and our actions will match our words, not like the Members opposite.

Acting Chairman: I call Deputy Flynn to speak without interruption. She has a full five minutes.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: I welcome the opportunity to speak on the pre-budget statements. The approach by the Government so far in dealing with the economic downturn has been unfolding day on day. The situation has changed day after day.

Deputy Ulick Burke: Three down; one to go.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: No economic analyst in the world or even anyone on the Opposition benches either in the past 12 months or prior to that could have forecast what happened. 735 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: We did.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: They did not, actually. They absolutely did not. If the Deputies opposite would give me an opportunity——

(Interruptions).

Acting Chairman: Colleagues, please. Deputy Flynn without interruption, please.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: We will have plenty opportunity to have the benefit of their wisdom and we look forward to that with great interest.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Absolutely.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: The problems being faced in Ireland are global. Obviously the Deputies opposite do not realise that. I did not think I was saying something new, but obviously it is coming as news to those on the Opposition benches. However, the problems are global. Countries which in the past had similar problems to Ireland’s have recovered and achieved social and economic success, as we will also. It is about time we brought some confidence into this debate to show that we can and will find a way out of this situation.

Deputy Ulick Burke: On the fourth attempt maybe.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: I beg the Deputy’s pardon on that. I have already stated in my first sentence that the situation has been unfolding and continues to unfold. We may yet see further changes.

Deputy Ulick Burke: It is do or die this time.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: That needs to be recognised. On 7 April I hope we might get some support from the Opposition. We would like to think we would have an integrated approach to dealing with the problem and a plan over five years, with the Opposition’s support with the help of God.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Deputy’s colleagues created this. Why look to us for help now?

Deputy Beverley Flynn: It is because I am talking about the national interest, which is obviously something that is not close to Deputy Durkan’s heart.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The national interest would be close to the Deputy’s heart all right. She must be joking me.

Acting Chairman: I ask Deputy Flynn to proceed.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: The national interest is in the interest of every person in my constituency and in Deputy Durkan’s.

Acting Chairman: Deputy Durkan, please.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: We have a five-year objective that has been highlighted by the Taoiseach in the House today. The objective is to bring the budget deficit below 3% by 2013. We have signed up to that commitment under the Stability and Growth Pact. There has been much talk today about the 9.5% GDP deficit this year and whether we will maintain that figure. I believe we need to keep as close to that as possible and in order to realise the objective we 736 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) seek within the five-year period. Circumstances are constantly changing and we need to respond as positively as we can to the situation in which we find ourselves. I ask the Opposition to join the Government in presenting a comprehensive integrated approach to solving our problems.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: “Come into my parlour” said the spider to the fly.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: We must restore our international reputation as far as the financial markets are concerned. The Opposition has done a fair bit to undermine that and it must take responsibility.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Join the mud bath.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: We can achieve that with bank regulation and governance and convincing the international community that——

Deputy Ulick Burke: That is rich.

Acting Chairman: The Deputy will get his chance.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: ——this country is capable of getting our public finances under control within the five-year period. We have the confidence of the European Central Bank in that regard. The ability of the banks to lend money is a key issue to our recovery. I look forward to the proposals on 7 April that will deal with the bad asset situation in our banks and free up money for businesses big and small. I am particularly concerned about the retention of existing jobs. The national development plan should be redirected to protect existing jobs in our economy. It is a priority for me and something I have highlighted in every debate on this issue in recent weeks. While the Government’s target must be to consider the structural deficit and will involve a new approach to taxation, as Deputy White has said those who are in a position to pay more will be asked to pay more. We must also do everything we can to protect the vulnerable people in our society at this time in particular. We must reduce prices and wages and become more competitive as a country. Ireland’s problems have been compounded by the contraction in the construction industry and the fall in exports. If we did not have the problem of the contraction in the construction industry, we would still be in a very difficult economic situation today. In 2007 our exports grew by 6.8%. The forecast for 2009, however, is for a reduction of 2.6%, which unfortunately speaks for itself. We must bring back construction to a level at which it is sustainable, which is 10% of GNP. In the budget on 7 April the Government should introduce short-term measures that meet our long-term objectives. Earlier I heard a Fine Gael frontbench spokesperson mention a stamp duty holiday.

Deputy Ulick Burke: The Deputy must have an interest in it.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: It was one of the only positive suggestions made. We should refund VAT to people purchasing property. I would also consider incentives for the motor trade, including providing for a scrappage scheme, as well as the retail sector which has suffered a savage decline and for which I would perhaps consider changes to PRSI to help protect jobs. The sector has seen a decline three times the level in any other country in the euro area and is a very important one. Personal savings have increased due to the issue of confidence. The Opposition will just not admit that this is a global crisis that requires from all of us political responsibility to deal with it in the national interest. 737 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: It would be wrong to admit it.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: I ask that the Opposition be a little more forthcoming in offering solutions to the crisis.

Acting Chairman: I call Deputy Ulick Burke and will do my utmost to protect him.

Deputy Ulick Burke: I appreciate it.

Deputy Dick Roche: Here comes the master plan.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: We are looking forward to this.

Deputy Ulick Burke: I wish to share my time with Deputy Durkan.

Acting Chairman: Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Ulick Burke: I welcome, as most would, the decision of the trade unions to accept the Government’s invitation and call off the proposed day of action next week. This is a first positive step and part of the solution. I heard Deputy White talking about the high wire act, but she totally missed the point. The Government has on three occasions attempted this high wire act and failed — it has fallen off. There is only one opportunity left for it, which is presented by the emergency budget. The country at large — taxpayers, employees, small businesses and everybody else with an interest in the country, including those involved in agriculture and the other pillars of the community — is giving the Government one last chance to resolve the matter, given its inability on three previous occasions to resolve the difficulties. It stated \2 billion would get us out of this situation but it was wrong and it is wrong again now. We heard Deputy Flynn give an indication that once more the Government had brought itself into a comfort zone where there may be further mistakes, underestimations and all the rest because it claims everything is evolving day by day.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: It is the same in every other country.

Deputy Ulick Burke: The Government thinks the people are gullible enough to swallow that but they are not. They are full——

Deputy Beverley Flynn: That is the reality.

Acting Chairman: Please allow Deputy Burke to continue.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: With respect, he is talking nonsense.

Deputy Ulick Burke: They fully realise the Government has proven its incompetence and I do not see it being capable of resolving the issue. I will give one example from the budget introduced last October. Deputy Flynn will know of this as she was also present at an IFA meeting in the west when there was doublespeak and she escaped the wrath of the IFA while her colleagues took the rap for her.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: I just performed better than the Deputy on the night.

Deputy Ulick Burke: Be that as it may, the IFA has clearly indicated in its submission for the upcoming budget that average income for a farming family is just over \19,000 per annum, a decrease of 12.5% on the figure for last year, and that there is likely to be a further decrease 738 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) of 12.5% in 2009. All that the IFA and the farming community wants is to be assured that they will not have to endure any further burden or cuts to their income because, otherwise, they will be wiped out and will all be on family income supplement or other payments. When the national average farm income is approximately \19,000, what can we say about farm incomes in the west? The suckler cow grant was cut by 50%, while installation aid and the retirement pension were abolished. Unfairly and without equity a levy was imposed in order that gross income is taken into account without exempting capital allowances. No other community must suffer such a levy in such circumstances. I say to the Minister for Finance that farmers, those in the west, in particular, cannot afford to take further cuts. Every community and group which has made a submission has said no. We heard the case made for carers. It is fine for Deputy White to make that statement when she knows well the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach may decide to go down the road of not recognising the undertaking given by so many carers who save the State \2.5 billion. I agree with Deputy Flynn on jobs. The reality is that it is no longer a question of job creation but job losses.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: It is a matter of job retention.

Deputy Ulick Burke: It is happening day after day. Two months ago the Taoiseach said in the House that the most important points was jobs, jobs and jobs. What has happened? We have lost jobs every day. That has been the response of the Government.

Acting Chairman: I call Deputy Durkan who has four minutes.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Only four. I am sure I can extend that number by one, with the goodness of the Acting Chairman’s heart.

Acting Chairman: The Deputy has had many minutes.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I will need one or two more.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: He should not have them. He used up my time.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Four minutes is a very limited time in which to address the current economic crisis. It is the single biggest issue to face the country since the foundation of the State, yet we have three or four minutes to address it. It is a bit of a laugh. We have heard many speakers on the other side of the House state this is a global problem. Some 90% of the problem we are experiencing was created within the economy. That is a fact.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: That is untrue.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The reason the Government is discovering on a daily basis that new issues about which it has not heard are appearing over the horizon is simply that the full impact of the global crisis has not been felt in Ireland yet. What we are experiencing is the effect of what was done by the Government. Despite all of the lectures from the other side of the House, before the rainbow Government left office in 1997 it was creating 1,000 jobs a week, inflation was low and the prospects were good. What did we get instead? We were ridiculed from the other side of the House because we were not generous enough and it was stated we should have given more and more. That is what the next Government did. It revved up the economy and ran it into the ground. What is it stating now? It is blaming the eurozone — the euro is to blame. Perhaps the planet is to blame. Everything is to blame, except the Government. 739 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: The Deputy should give us an idea.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Government should wake up. The Deputy’s party has been in government for the past two years, as both she and the Green Party should recognise. The Fianna Fa´il Party has been in government for the past ten years non-stop.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: Let us hear what the Deputy stands for. He should give us a plan.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: What is going on, Acting Chairman? You should initiate an investigation to discover what is happening on the other side of the House. The Government seems to be bereft of imagination or a willingness to accept responsibility for anything, except good news. Who is to blame? Everybody is to blame, except the Government — that is the attitude. Even the media are picking up on this. The Government has fed the media with the same old nonsense time and again. It has done it so often it now believes somebody did this to us. After all, is it not its God-given right to be in government forever? As Dean Martin used to say, “who’s to blame?” The Government is to blame. The Government has retaliated. The first sector it has selected is the public sector which will be beaten first as it was the cause of this crisis. The Government is now involved in a series of punishment beatings. I have no doubt that the budget to be announced on 7 April will be one more punishment beating against the public sector because it was the cause of this crisis, or that is what is being said. The Government will also attack the private sector which has escaped to a certain extent, although it is suffering job losses and taking serious economic hits. One of the points I cannot understand is that when this crisis was unfolding during the past six or seven years, why the Government did nothing about it. George Lee — fair play to him — was one economist who held up his hands and asked: “What is going on? Something is going on here.” Deputies Bruton and Kenny also said it, as did many speakers on this side of the House. However, the Government stated: “Not at all. You are stupid. You do not know what you are talking about. We know better.” Although I am only a simple backbencher, even I asked questions. Seven years ago we asked why the economy was no longer competitive. We asked why our exports were dwindling and why nothing was done to ensure we remained competitive into the future and were told we are a high wage economy and that we are to base our future on the knowledge-based industry. If the knowledge-based industry is to rescue us, the serious dearth of knowledge on the opposite side of the House means it will be a long time before that happens. I cannot in the time available deal adequately with this subject.

Acting Chairman: The Deputy might be able to do so in the one minute remaining to him.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: The Deputy has one minute to put forward one idea.

Deputy Beverley Flynn: That shows that in 2007——

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Government stalwarts are now quoting on a regular basis the words of Adlai Stevenson, “No gain without pain” and stating that tough decisions have to be taken. We know that; we have heard it often enough. While we accept tough decisions need to be taken, the correct decisions must be taken.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White: What are they? 740 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Government has not made one correct decision since taking up office. Not one correct decision was taken. Everything the Government has done was a disaster. The Government has behaved like a lunatic in a china shop with a sledge hammer slashing all around it and cutting everything while stating we must endure pain. There will be pain for the Government if it continues like that. The most severe pain will be that experienced shortly by Government when the electorate has its say and opts to put Government out of its pain, a pain it needs to be put out of with extreme urgency.

Deputy Chris Andrews: Deputy Durkan surpassed himself today——-

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I could surpass anybody on that side of the House.

Deputy Chris Andrews: ——in his ability to speak for four minutes without offering any alternatives or positive suggestions. I regret the Deputy is leaving the House. It is difficult to understand how Deputy Durkan reached the conclusion that the private sector has remained untouched other than by a few job losses. Also, it is difficult to understand his theory that the global downturn has not yet impacted on us here. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. On 7 April, the Government will take the necessary steps in terms of its presentation of a supplementary budget to the Irish people. While many of the measures introduced will be difficult, I believe they will be fair. We are all aware of the need for fairness. It is always difficult to get the balance right. The Govern- ment is working hard to ensure those who can afford the most will pay the most and that the most vulnerable in society are protected as far as possible. Clearly, Ireland is facing unprecedented economic challenges on a scale never before experienced. It is critical people work together and in that regard I welcome the new engagement with the social partners. It is a positive move which indicates a new realisation by a large sector of stakeholders in society that the situation is as bad as indicated. The country’s finances have been worsening rapidly since October of last year. I believe the budget will provide the Govern- ment with an opportunity to pre-empt a worsening of our finances. The budget will, I hope, have a number of positive effects, the most vital of which is that additional and much needed revenue will be raised for the Exchequer, thus narrowing the gap in our public finances. Our economy has worsened far more rapidly than anyone could have anticipated. Total tax revenue at the end of 2008 was \40 billion, some \6 billion less than that taken in the previous year. The budget will allow the Government to address the gaps in revenue as aggressively as possible by changing the amounts people contribute.

Deputy Simon Coveney: How will the Government do it?

Deputy Chris Andrews: In addition, the budget will provide an opportunity for the Govern- ment to demonstrate its leadership and to restore confidence. It is clear that people are concerned and worried. As stated, there is no silver bullet, magic wand or road map to follow because nobody has been through this before. The constant drip of negative news in past couple of months, over which the Government had no control, has eroded public confidence and made people wary of what is to come. With the new budget in place, people will be able to accurately assess their financial situation and begin to plan and, it is hoped, spend once more. On Ireland’s international reputation, a well thought-out and planned budget will help to repair some of the damage done in recent months in terms of the negative effect the banking difficulties have had on our reputation. It will help to restore international confidence in our economy and our ability to manage it. What we do here and how it is perceived internationally is important. Ireland cannot do economic stimulus in the way some of the big economies are 741 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Chris Andrews.] doing it. America is injecting trillions into stimulating its economy. Ireland is a small country which currently is uncompetitive, which is impacting on us. We cannot do stimulus in the same way that America or some of the bigger countries can.

Deputy Simon Coveney: Yes we can.

Deputy Chris Andrews: We must get the balance right. While it might be tempting to cut spending on vital infrastructure for short-term gain, I hope the budget will take the long- term view and provide for investment in major infrastructure. Obviously, not all infrastructural projects can be delivered upon within the original timescale. We must prioritise and I believe we will do so. Caution is necessary in terms of the capital expenditure programme. A balance must be achieved between taking money out of the economy and protecting jobs and investing to increase our capacity to compete and deferring projects that are not necessary now thus releasing money for more immediate concerns. It is important the correct balance is achieved between cutting expenditure and raising taxes and borrowing. As I said earlier, there is no magic wand that can fix this. What we need is a plan. Recovery will take time. As previous speakers stated, we must protect the vulnerable in society. They must not become easy targets. Carers have been engaging with public representatives on all sides. We cannot afford to send out the wrong message to carers who in effect work 24 hours a day, seven days a week and save the economy a great deal more than is paid to 6 o’clock them. Also, they play a vital role in terms of society wherein social isolation is unfortunately becoming more prevalent. In the absence of the national carers strategy there are cost neutral measures that could be introduced that would benefit carers. We could promote the sharing of the carer’s allowance by two carers providing care on a part- time basis. There is a lack of awareness in regard to people’s entitlements and how the system operates. This proposal would be a cost neutral measure and would send out the right message to carers. A family carer awareness training programme should be developed in collaboration with relevant stakeholders such as the Departments of Health and Children and Social and Family Affairs and the HSE. It should be delivered to frontline staff in all relevant statutory agencies on a phased basis.

Deputy Simon Coveney: The Government has just binned the carer’s strategy.

Deputy Chris Andrews: It would not cost an arm and a leg to establish such a programme. It would send a positive message to carers while costing almost nothing to deliver. I suggest that we draw on existing resources in Departments to create an interactive national website that is dedicated to family carers. We should support carers in such a cost-effective manner. We need to remind family carers that any failure on their part to make contributions to their pensions while they are providing care might affect their eligibility for the old age contributory pension. If that message were transmitted, it would help carers, who have a difficult job and an important role. This budget gives the Government an opportunity to put the country on the road to economic recovery. I am sure the right steps will be taken to ensure we are in a good position when that recovery comes about.

Deputy Simon Coveney: I am glad to have an opportunity to contribute to these pre-budget statements. I would like to deal with a few issues. Most Government speakers have asked the Opposition to make suggestions. I will give them some suggestions, while also commenting on the Government’s performance. The manner in 742 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) which the Government communicates with the people and with this House in the build-up to the budget will determine whether it is successful. If Government Deputies are to ask the Opposition parties to co-operate with them, they should also co-operate with us, for example, by giving us information. We should sit around a table and thrash out some compromises. If the Government wants to make a serious effort to facilitate a unified all-party approach to the compilation of this emergency budget, which is not a normal budget, it should get on with it. The kind of farce we have at present does not represent such an effort. People are calling for a unity Government in the media, but the reality is that Fine Gael’s finance spokesman is not being given the figures he needs from the Department of Finance. It is a nonsensical set of circumstances. The Taoiseach needs to lead by talking directly to the people. He should be honest about the state of the country and set out where it is heading if a dramatic change of direction is not made. If the Government introduces tough and unpopular measures, such as raising taxes and cutting costs, it will get support from people like me. It needs, however, to prepare the public for the reality of an emergency budget. This is not the normal budgetary process to which the Taoiseach referred earlier. That is not what this is about. This emergency budget is being introduced in response to the fact that Ireland will continue on the road to bankruptcy if it does not change direction. I am aware that Ministers think that is dangerous talk, but it is a fact. We cannot continue to increase our deficit by \1 billion a month, which is what is happening at present. I accept that an emergency budget is needed. People need to be spoken to directly and bluntly, in language they can understand rather than economic-speak. The Taoiseach has said he will not update this House on his preparations for the emergency budget on a weekly basis because to do so would not adhere to the normal budgetary process. I suggest that he needs to address this House and the public on live, prime time television. He needs to explain what is happening and why it is an emergency. What can people expect? Why will there be hardship? He needs to make it clear that a plan that involves hardship needs to be put in place now so that the duration of this country’s recession can be reduced and we can start building again in the relatively near future. He should not allow uncertainty to continue as part of some kind of effort to try to be politically clever. That is what seems to be happening, however. If the Government expects people to accept the pain associated with a difficult emergency budget, it needs to lead by example by cutting its administrative costs. Somehow, it needs to find between \4 billion and \6 billion over the last eight and a half months of this year. It needs to show that it can lead by example in taking the pain. We have put our proposals on the table, but where are the Government’s proposals? They do not exist. We do not need 20 Ministers of State in this institution. Senior Ministers do not need 14 personal secretaries, all of whom are sometimes placed in their home constituencies. The Oireachtas does not need 23 or 24 committees. If we decide to reduce the cost of the business of this House, we will show that we are willing to lead by example. If I am not mistaken, we got through the last recession, in the 1980s, with just seven Ministers of State. The truth is that the large number of Ministers of State is just a symptom of the problem.

Deputy Chris Andrews: Which Minister of State positions would the Deputy abolish?

Deputy Simon Coveney: My party has produced a list. We have said we would reduce the number of Ministers of State from 20 to 12.

Deputy Chris Andrews: Which Ministers of State would have to go?

Deputy John McGuinness: Am I safe? 743 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Simon Coveney: I will happily go through the list with Deputy Andrews after this debate. I would like to make some more suggestions in the five remaining minutes available to me. If one needs to inflict pain on somebody, one should start by inflicting it on one’s self. Only then can one undertake the communications challenge of convincing people that the pain one needs to inflict on them will be good for them or, at least, is a necessity that cannot be avoided. I am really concerned when I hear the Taoiseach saying the Government will not meet the targets it has set for itself, but will instead try to get as close as it can to them. I have heard the leader of the Labour Party saying something similar. I am worried that people are starting to back away from the need to grasp the nettle, which is something we must not do. We need to face the challenges that have resulted from a combination of the huge policy mistakes that have been made and the impact on Ireland of the international recession. The pain that is necessary needs to be front-loaded in order that the period of recession can be reduced and the international collapse of confidence in Ireland can be arrested. There is no doubt the damage being done to Ireland’s reputation will affect our ability to borrow money in the short term. People are warning us about that every week. I would like to make some positive proposals. Deputy Bruton has articulated the need to use a crisis of this nature to bring about fundamental reform in the public sector. I do not need to go into that because it has been well articulated. At noon tomorrow, Fine Gael will launch a document setting out the case for the radical reform of State companies in the public sector. As Deputy Bruton has said, such an approach would facilitate significant investment in the Irish economy during a time of recession. We need to shift the burden of lending money for capital investment in the Irish economy away from the Government, which cannot afford it right now, to new commercial State-owned companies which should be established for a new era and a new economy. The proposals we will launch tomorrow will involve an investment of approximately \18 billion in infrastructure over four years in areas like water, broadband, energy and transport. We will propose new and imaginative ways of financing such infrastructure that will not affect the Government’s balance sheet, which clearly could not sustain any further negative impact. I ask the Government to examine what we will propose tomorrow. It can take it on board as its own idea if it wants. We need to invest in a manner that will stimulate the Irish economy and close the substantial gap in our national deficit, which is continuing to grow. If we invest in strategic infrastructure now, we can create between 90,000 and 100,000 jobs in the process, which will represent the equivalent of an \18 billion investment. Not only would we create jobs at a time of recession, we would also create an infrastructure in order that when recession comes to an end and there is growth again in Ireland, we would be well placed to take advantage of it aggressively to create new opportunities, which is what is needed. Let us not limit our thinking to solving the financial deficit crisis in the budget. Let us broaden it to try to find new ways of attracting private sector money and using National Pension Reserve Fund money to invest in labour intensive infrastructure in a way that people can be employed during the recession and that we can prepare the country for the future. If there is but one point I can make today it is that people want and need optimism from their political leaders. They want to know that we are in charge. They know that they are about to enter a very rough period in Ireland’s history but they also want to know that there is a plan to bring us through it. To call for optimism or for the country to pull together, as people regularly do, is rubbish, unless there is a plan and a direction in which people can pull together in order that they know where they are going.

744 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Let us have the budget. Let us try to close the gap in terms of the deficit but let us also have the other ideas that are necessary in terms of job creation and job protection in order that people can have some confidence that we know where we are going and that there is a destination following a difficult journey. If there is no such leadership, people will lose hope and we will start to create a new generation of long-term unemployed persons in Ireland. The Minister of State, Deputy McGuinness, knows how difficult it would be to shake this off over a period of time. Once people get used to being long-term unemployed in very large numbers it is difficult for a state to start getting them back to work. There are so many highly employ- able, well educated motivated people who are losing their jobs that we must arrest the dramatic collapse in employment. That is as important as closing the deficit gap. We should not forget this in devising the budget.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy John McGuinness): I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this pre-budget debate. I consider Deputy Coveney to be a reasonable guy. I have heard him speak at committee meetings at various stages and I am interested in the contribution he has just made. It is different. It was made without political rhetoric. I also listened to his colleague Deputy Bruton and the suggestions he made. I have paid tribute to his approach to some matters in the House. In broad- brush strokes, therefore, I agree with some of the suggestions being made. However, I also listened to others who made a contribution and must say the following to Deputy Coveney who will have had experience of this. As a businessman making hard decisions, coming here to this bubble for three days would make one believe we were about to sink, or that we were sinking, and that there was no hope whatsoever. The only saving grace for me in my thinking on the economy and where we are going, without being political about it, is that in my position as a Minister of State I link up with the county enterprise boards and Enterprise Ireland. They are real people who put their money where their mouth is. They are creating jobs; they are travelling abroad and understand the economy from a real perspective because they are pinched by us every day of the week. They are much more positive, in spite of the challenges, than we are. When I hear the general volume and tone of the debate here, it is not about the economy, rather it is about, notwithstanding what Deputy Coveney stated, which I appreciate, political point scoring. It is about some notion that the country is completely rudderless, has gone off the rails and gone crazy, and that we have an international reputation that is so damaged we cannot raise money. Some of what Deputy Coveney stated is linked with this. The other point made in the debate is that there is no leadership, that we do not know what is going on and that the Taoiseach or anyone else will not listen. I listen to what is being said here. I do not just listen to Deputy Cowen because he is Taoiseach or Deputy Brian Lenihan because he is Minister for Finance. I like to hear what they have to say because I want to get something out of it for the jobs I am trying to protect within my own business and for those with whom I work in Enterprise Ireland and the county enterprise boards. I hear what the Taoiseach is saying. I read Building Ireland’s Smart Economy and listen to the answers given to Deputy Coveney’s party leader two days a week. I put it all together and it gives me a sense that there is a destination that will be reached but that all of us will feel pain and that there is a price to be paid. It has been set out generally, but they do not get it. Deputy Coveney does. Some other colleagues do but, generally, it comes across that they do not. I am not here to tell Deputy Coveney that his party has nothing to say, that I have not heard good suggestions from it. The opposite is the case. However, that is not said of other political parties in the House. It is not understood because they do not want to understand. The aim seems to be to, politically, do the guy opposite down because that is what we are here for. Actually, it is not. The public is looking for leadership and they see within the House certain people, across the political divide, who will provide that leadership and who have some sense of direction. I did not call 745 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy John McGuinness.] for a national government because it is nonsense in the sense that it is not achievable with the political dynamic in the House. However, what can be achieved in the House is not that the Opposition would give the Government a chance but that it would feed in in some way — I respect what Deputy Coveney stated that perhaps it does not receive all of the figures — to finding the direction we are all trying to take because we are all here for the general good of the people we represent. That is all I would say to Deputy Coveney. On the real business of the economy, I say this. In the banking sector it is time for a hard dose of reality. It is time for a reduction in salaries. It is time to call a halt to the almost immoral way in which they behaved. Some of the newspaper reports today would lead one to believe there was far more going on in the banks in terms of their culture than any of us knew. We need to look at this. We need to ensure that in every board of a bank or financial institution there is truth and transparency, that they are seen to address the issues and that those members of the board caught up in the old baggage go soon and much sooner than they expected. It is only in this way that they will show respect for the general public who are fed up hearing about what they were carrying on with in the past ten years that we did not know about. On some of the stuff that we did know about, we are only now getting the opportunity to tell them that they were wrong and if they do not see this, they should not be part of the plan for the future. That is what I believe about the banking system. I say to the banks that in spite of their big advertisements in the newspapers about lending money to the SME sector and the fact that the Government is bailing them out, assisting and guaranteeing them, they are not doing microbusinesses or the SME sector any good, that they are not giving them money, that they are pretending they are open for business when they are not. Let us be honest about it, that is the position. I have enough hard evidence and real stories to inform me that when one goes to the bank for a loan to expand or save one’s business, even when one has a viable business, that instead of getting the loan one requires so urgently, one walks back out with an entirely new package that costs more in terms of fees, charges and interest rates, and no loan. That cannot continue. We must say to the banks, loud and clear from this House, that it cannot continue because everyone has a role to play and that if taxpayers’ money is associated with recapitalisation and the guarantee scheme, we expect much more than what the SME and microbusiness sector is getting from them. That must be said by every Minister and I hope it is understood by the Opposition and others involved here. I also hope the banks get the message, as otherwise we will be in real trouble. I am from a school of thought that would like to see a property or asset bank established. They are talking about it in America. Let us do it here. Let us be ahead of the curve. Let us see what is happening.

Deputy Simon Coveney: We are to propose that tomorrow.

Deputy John McGuinness: Fine. There is nothing wrong with it. I propose not a bad bank but an asset or property bank, which could be saved as we go along in terms of the assets and property portfolios it holds. It would give the banks that have the real thrust of business interests in mind the opportunity to be banks. I want to turn to costs. I ask the ESB to cut its costs by 25% now. That is what it can do to make a contribution. I ask local authorities, strapped as they are for cash, to examine their planning fees and charges and do something about them. It is within their remit to do this. We must examine VAT returns in terms of the businesses that come under that limit and allow them to pay VAT on receipts instead of on invoices. These are small issues to protect existing jobs. 746 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Last week I was in Enterprise Ireland and 71 high-potential start-up companies were seeking money from venture capitalists and banks. Enterprise Ireland gave them \21 million and they leveraged \169 million in investment in their different projects, creating 1,000 jobs over the next three years. That is a substantial contribution by that sector, and nobody talked about it. Very positive things are happening in the economy. I recognise it is bad. We are suffering from a global downturn, but those companies are trading here and abroad and maintaining jobs. A significant package must be put together for the SME and micro sector doing business in this country to assist them to survive, and that has to involve the banks. As a social democrat I say to the Taoiseach and to the Minister for Finance that whatever we do in this House next week we must protect the vulnerable, the less well off, the elderly and so on. I know the wrongs that were in the last budget and the Opposition Deputies can accuse me of that and describe how we stood up and clapped, and go through all that. If, however, we do not park some of that old baggage and deal with some of the real issues in this new economy and be political leaders in this new situation, we will continue to be condemned by the public and will continue to offer poor answers in a desperate situation.

Deputy Finian McGrath: I wish to share my time with Deputy Behan. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to speak on this very important debate on pre-budget statements. This is a very important time for our country, economy and citizens. People are worried and fearful, and they need confidence and trust. Politicians must lead. Before I go into the details of my proposals on a solution, I stress that it is important that all Deputies and Senators must lead. I strongly urge that all Deputies and Senator take a 10% voluntary pay cut as a start. I have already done this, and the Ministers, Ministers of State and 19 other Deputies and Senators have also done this.

Deputy John McGuinness: It is 20.

Deputy Finian McGrath: The rest must also do it. It is all very well giving lectures in here on economic cuts but it is time for all Deputies to put up or shut up. That is where we start. I will put forward proposals on how to get us out of this mess and I would like the Minister for Finance to examine them. In the past few days I made a submission to the Taoiseach. I told him I have always supported the call for more patriotism, but my patriotism does not include hammering low-paid workers, the elderly, sick, disabled and young children. There are always other creative ways to fund these matters. In recent months I have taken difficult decisions in the interests of our country and have put forward ideas to resolve these issues. For example, let us be brave and examine the idea of increasing the standard rate of income tax to 22% and the top rate to 45%, which would raise \2 billion per annum. As the Minister of State, Deputy McGuinness said, let us examine the idea of removing impaired assets from the balance sheets of banks and moving them to Government-owned asset management companies. We should also examine tax on second houses, not family homes, at a cost of approximately \600 per house. We should seriously examine reducing waste and bureaucracy rather than cutting essential services. Tax shelters and exiles will have to be confronted. We also need to examine tax on profits and investments and we must be brave to broaden the tax base. Every- body should contribute in this economic downturn, no matter how small the contribution. I told the Taoiseach we must get the social partners back on board and support the positive proposals in the social solidarity pact from ICTU. I welcome today’s development and have been calling for it for the past seven days. Another issue which many have ignored is listening to people on the ground who have new ideas to develop our economy and jobs. There is a pool of talent in this country who want to serve our nation in difficult times and I have met these 747 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Finian McGrath.] people in recent months. This may be controversial, but there is scope to borrow more and the Government and Opposition should not bottle this issue. I asked the Taoiseach to do a national address to our people live on television to get people to support economic patriotism. We know unemployment will average 12% in 2009 and our exports will decline by 6% this year. I told the Taoiseach he needs to be straight with our people, then they will rally. Society is people. Without people there is no society. I urged the Government to join us in a crusade to redevelop respect, trust and community spirit by insisting on people-centred policies and actions. We must get the balance between cuts, taxation and capital projects right. We also need to focus on jobs as a way out of this crisis, for example in the recent situation in SR Technics. We need a Tony Gregory-type plan to deal with this issue. I call for support for the plan to save our aircraft maintenance company. I call on the Government and the IDA to support a proposal to invest \20 million to save 1,135 jobs and to protect a vital national industry. Fingal County Council will lose \1.5 million in rates if SR Technics closes. It is economic madness to put this quality team on the dole. They have already had 30 expressions of interest in the SR Technics plant. It is aviation vandalism to lose SR Technics. These are just some concrete proposals I have put on the agenda and I urge the Government to take them on board as a solution to some of our problems.

Deputy Joe Behan: I thank the Ceann Comhairle for giving me the opportunity to speak for the third time in six months. On resigning from Fianna Faíl I undertook to support the Govern- ment when it acted in the public interest and I have done so in good faith even when some controversial measures were proposed. Sadly, the moral authority of the Government has been fatally damaged by recent events for which it is responsible. The compensation pay-off to the former CEO of the Financial Regulator, the failure by the Minster for Finance to read 120 pages of vital information regarding the bank at the epicentre of the country’s financial woes before deciding to nationalise it, the cynical and callous decision to end the provision of special class support to children in most need of that support, and the refusal to include the Judiciary in the pension levy are just some of the most blatant examples of unjust and unfair decisions by this Government which have shocked me and resulted in widespread anger and dismay throughout the nation. The anger of the people is mixed with confusion, fear and uncertainty about what the future holds for us and is threatening to become explosive as divisions emerge between the people and the politicians, the unemployed and the employed, and the public and private sector workers. Unfortunately, the Taoiseach and Ministers continue to confuse unpopularity with leadership. Leadership, to be successful, must be based on trust, openness and acceptance of responsibility. The actions needed to save us from economic disaster will be possible only if there is vision, fairness and clarity in the recovery plan and the assurance of competence in its execution. There has been a very good discussion here for the past 20 minutes and it is a great shame some of the best brains in Daíl E´ ireann are on opposite sides and spend so much of their time and ability working to outmanoeuvre each other rather than putting together their collective ability in the national interest. There is often such co-operation at Oireachtas committees which produces great results, but we rarely witness it in the Daíl. If ever there was a time in our history when such leadership was required, it is now, but it will not happen under current arrangements. Politics as usual is not an option. We need new politics where politicians on all sides come together to share ideas and power for the common good, as has happened in this debate. I propose that the Taoiseach convene a summit of the leaders of all the political parties and Independent Members in the House to try to achieve consensus on a three-year national 748 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) recovery and social solidarity plan to be agreed by the social partners and put to the people in a referendum.

Deputy Thomas Byrne: The Deputy would not talk to the Taoiseach before he left Fianna Fa´il, even when the Taoiseach wanted to talk to him.

Deputy Joe Behan: The agreement should provide for power sharing between all parties and Independent Members in the House with the leadership of the national Government to be shared. While the idea will probably be dismissed as naive or unworkable, as the world economy heads for complete collapse, the national interest may dictate that there soon will be no alternative. The talent is available on all sides of the House to lift the country out of the deep hole in which it finds itself once we all concentrate on what is right for the people rather than what serves the interests of each political party. I urge all colleagues to consider the many positive results we could achieve if we were to work together rather than against each other. I encourage the people we serve to reflect on the proposal and if they see merit in it, to ask for it to happen.

Deputy Finian McGrath: Hear, hear.

Deputy Michael Ahern: I wish to share time with Deputy Thomas Byrne. The challenge facing the Government is to achieve the correct balance between cutting spending, raising taxes and borrowing in the context of the four cornerstones of the recovery strategy — getting the public finances in order; sorting out the banking sector by returning credibility to the system; protecting and creating jobs through enterprise support; and looking after those who have lost their jobs through retraining and other innovative schemes. It must be recognised that Ireland and other states are facing the worst global crisis since the 1920s. As a consequence, we can only influence the elements under our control. Since the middle of last year, we have been looking at a target that is moving daily. I can understand why people urge the Government to do something every day because of the torrent of bad news coming down the tracks but any Government cannot react to each new piece of datum in isolation. We will examine all that has happened in recent months and bring forward a comprehensive budget to deal with all the calamities. Caution is necessary in considering the capital expenditure programme. A balance must be achieved between taking money out of the economy, protecting jobs and investing to increase our capacity to compete while, on the other hand, deferring projects that are unnecessary now and releasing money to address more immediate concerns. While the temptation might be to cancel projects wholesale, that must be measured by the Government against the overall affect of the such cancellations on the economy. We must protect as many jobs as we can and restore competitiveness in the way we conduct business by supporting viable but vulnerable enterprises. Firmness is needed to correct the finances as the full picture emerges. This will send a clear signal to the markets and our international partners that the Government is taking the necessary steps and will continue to do so until the position stabilises. We must robustly attack the structural gap in the public finances because there is no other way to ensure our economic recovery except through broadening the tax base by increasing tax rates and reducing public expenditure. Everyone will need to play his or her part in the country’s battle for economic stability in a fair way based on ability to pay. Those who can bear it best must bear it most. The tax system needs to be adjusted in changed times and must be adapted to fit our new circumstances. Through a combination of higher taxes and increased cuts in spending, balance will be restored to the public finances by 2013. We must and we will do our utmost to protect 749 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Michael Ahern.] the more vulnerable in society. We will continue to invest in those who are out of work in order that they can return to employment as soon as possible. I welcome the deferral of the national strike which was due to take place next Monday. This bodes extremely well for the future. It is welcome that people are coming to their senses with the proposed resumption of discussions between the social partners. At this time it is necessary for everybody to come together, put their shoulder to the wheel and move in the same direction. Everybody is coming to that view inside and outside the House.

Deputy Thomas Byrne: I picked up a copy of The Daily Telegraph earlier which is not something I do ordinarily, but it printed a picture of the new French Minister for Overseas Territories, Christine Kelly. Perhaps we should examine our diaspora in this context. However, I read a front page article and thought that a number of RTE’s economics gurus had emigrated. The article states:

There are growing fears that the Government may be over-extending the public finances in response to the recession. Some fear the combined cost of banking bail-outs alongside economic measures could cause Britain to lose its top-level credit rating, raising the prospect of having to call on the International Monetary Fund (IMF) for help.

This articles highlights the issue raised by the Minister for Finance, the Taoiseach and all serious commentators. We are an island nation floating in the world economy and totally dependent on what happens in the global economy with limited power over our own economic sovereignty. However, we must do whatever we can to make sure the public finances are in order. Deflation is a threat to the economy but a short burst is probably needed to restore competitiveness. That means reducing wages and prices. However, too much deflation could cause a reduction in consumption, thereby reducing Exchequer tax receipts. Meanwhile, people’s buying power would be vastly increased with interest rates remaining low. One must ask at what level of deflation and lower tax receipts will the Government state it will reduce expenditure on social welfare and other transfers to citizens and point out to them that they are gaining because of deflation. That is a difficult political message to sell but that case will have to be made at some point. Inflation poses the greater risk. Many of my constituents shop in the North. While I have never criticised them, I do not agree with them in the current circumstances. The British economy is experiencing significant inflation. Prices generally have increased by 3% year on year with food prices increasing by 9%. People must realise they will not always obtain better value abroad. I urge the Minister to continue as best he can with the capital expenditure programme. Schools building projects and the Slane bypass are important in my constituency. The decision by the trade unions to call off the national day of action is a significant step and I urge IBEC to be more conciliatory in its public statements. Every time the organisation issues a statement it annoys the hell out of many people and that is not the point of social partnership. Its representatives need to be measured in what they say and more conciliatory towards the trade unions because some of their statements have not been conducive to the public good.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: In accordance with the order of the House, I must call the Minister for Finance but understand he will cede four minutes of his time to Deputy Enright, with the agreement of the House. 750 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Olwyn Enright: Will the Minister examine the issue of tax compliance and the black economy? We recently passed legislation to recapitalise several financial institutions. However, they have been slow to offer credit but I hope they will do so again. Someone who acquires a State contract is obliged to provide a tax clearance certificate and is subject to relevant contract law. The State is effectively able to ensure companies are tax compliant prior to receiving contracts. Some small-scale builders, employing a few workers, have recently contacted me. They find it increasingly difficult to compete with those who are not tax compliant, who work for cash and therefore charge significantly less than tax compliant builders. The Minister could deal with this by imposing a requirement on financial institutions to obtain proof of tax compliance when giving mortgages. This should also be introduced in respect of compliance with health and safety requirements. Last year 12,000 one-off houses were built and it is expected that approximately 9,000 will be built this year. The Exchequer receives 37% of the price of each house but there is no way to ensure it will receive all the tax revenues it should from them. This is worth examining and could be achieved in a way that is not overly bureaucratic. There is still scope for improvement in the rent supplement scheme. I have highlighted savings that could be made through reductions at the high end of the market because rents have been reduced. The low end of the market is different. It is hard to believe that, despite questions from Members and the Comptroller and Auditor General, we continue to pay almost \500 million in rent supplement every year without having a system to check that the landlords who receive this money are tax compliant. The deposit system also needs to be changed. If the Department of Social and Family Affairs recovered the deposits, that would return \7 million to the Exchequer every year. Will the Minister also examine the back to education allowance? It has never been more important for people to see light at the end of the tunnel. The criteria in operation make it very difficult to avail of the scheme. Some have to wait up to 23 months, depending on when they lose their jobs. This can be addressed. The difference per annum between receiving unemployment assistance and the back to education allowance is \500. People would be far better off attending a third level institution, upskilling or obtaining a qualification than sitting at home trying to fill time. Carers are close to everybody’s heart and need recognition. The promised national carers’ strategy has not been published. Carers are very concerned about the impact of the budget on them. They save the State \2.5 billion per annum. There are 161,000 of them, 3,000 of whom are children providing full-time care. This work needs to be acknowledged. I do not expect any improvements in their conditions but hope there will be no disimprovements.

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): On 7 April I will present to the House a supplementary budget which will set out a comprehensive strategy to place the public finances on a sustainable footing for the rest of this year and the years ahead, and to prepare the economy for renewal and revitalisation when international conditions improve. The supplementary budget will build on a sequence of measures deliberately introduced to respond to the difficulties in the public finances. The domestic and global recession, and the banking crisis, have put enormous pressure on the public finances. Added to this, the loss of confidence and reputation due to the actions of some in the banking sector tarnished the reputation of the financial services industry at a time when we could least afford it. This challenge presents the Government with the opportunity to renew the economy, revitalise the public finances and reform the banking system. I will set out the means by which we will achieve these objectives in the Da´il two weeks from today. 751 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Brian Lenihan.]

Since the announcement of the Government’s intention to bring forward a supplementary budget, any fair-minded person would have to agree that I have given the Opposition parties unprecedented access to information and briefings. At the start of the month, at my request, my officials gave Opposition spokespersons a thorough briefing on the broad budgetary framework. I also made the Department available to the Opposition for confidential costings of any budgetary proposals they might have. I do not know the extent to which the parties have taken up that facility because it is confidential but this facility has never been offered to an Opposition party outside of election time. The Opposition has sought information on the numbers on which the supplementary budget will be based. Deputy Bruton has written to me seeking some detailed figures. The Cabinet is deliberating upon those numbers and will make its judgment, based on advice about their economic impact, in the coming days. It is for the Government to come to an informed decision on these matters. It is my understanding officials continue to be available to the Opposition for further briefings, subject to the requirement to maintain Cabinet confidentiality. It is the responsibility of the Government to draw up the budget but we have done everything possible to ensure the Opposition has the information it requires to make constructive suggestions and criticisms. I am open to considering all constructive proposals to get us through this economic crisis and I am looking to the Opposition for support for the necessary measures we will take. I note that Deputy Bruton yesterday outlined proposals for dealing with the structural deficit and the size he viewed as appropriate to it. This was an important intervention. There is some common ground between us and I would be happy to engage further with him next week. I respect the role of the Opposition parties in holding the Government to account but it would be helpful if we could reach some level of agreement. We are experiencing a sharper adjustment and slowdown than many other countries. Although we face considerable challenges, many of the factors which facilitated Ireland’s economic success in recent years remain. Our society is cohesive and we enjoy political stability and a shared understanding of our economic challenges. In recent discussions the Commission and the president of the European Central Bank were struck by the seriousness of our political system. The inherent flexibility of the economy is evident in that asset prices, wage and price levels are all adjusting rapidly to the new circumstances, thus helping to restore competitiveness. That flexibility was noted and acknowledged at a recent meeting I had with the Com- missioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs, Mr. Almunia, and it will be a considerable asset in getting us through this difficult economic period. The fiscal adjustments we are pursuing will also help to underpin the long-term sustainability of the public finances. Our medium-term prospects remain favourable. We have a young, flexible and highly educated English-speaking workforce. We have a flexible and export-oriented open economy, with a low corporation tax rate and a pro-enterprise focus. The pace and scale of the current global economic deterioration are without precedent for over half a century and advanced economies such as ours are expected to be among the worst affected. Internationally, global economic activity will contract by between 0.5% and 1% this year according to the International Monetary Fund and more particularly for us by about 3% in the advanced economies with which we predominantly trade as a small open economy. The Government is taking timely and appropriate action to stabilise the economy. We are repositioning it to be able to achieve sustainable, export-led growth when the global economic climate improves. Notwithstanding current difficulties, Ireland retains the ability and capacity to recover and benefit from the global upturn when it emerges. Our medium-term prospects remain positive and the economy has the capacity to grow at a healthy pace once the current 752 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed) difficulties are overcome. The achievement of this potential, however, is contingent upon implementing the right decisions now to lay the foundations for recovery. Control of the public finances remains the key pillar in our recovery. The economy has been weakened but the need now is for strong, yet appropriate, management by the Government. The policies we decide to follow will serve to renew the economy, address the budgetary crisis and position the economy to benefit as the international environment improves. There is no easy or quick fix. Difficult decisions will have to be taken. There will be pain to be shared but we are determined that the burden will be shared fairly by ensuring those best able to contribute do so. We are determined at all times to protect the vulnerable and less well-off. Many families and individuals face an uncertain future. Unemployment has increased substantially, workers are taking pay cuts, some for a second time, to protect their employment. In these circumstances, the Government is acutely aware of the need to act decisively in the national interest and to show leadership and courage in the face of adversity. There is no doubt that living standards will fall for everybody as we all contribute to the greater good. The measures we intend to take will facilitate our return to an era of prosperity and growth based on export-led and innovation driven output. We are determined to ensure the gains of recent years will not be lost and that we will make whatever adjustments are necessary to return the public finances to a sustainable path. In that context, it is important to note that the action to be taken on 7 April will be the latest in a series of necessary interventions. From July last year, when full year savings of \1 billion were announced, through to the October budget announcements with tax raising measures of close to \2 billion provided for and the spending adjustments in February which included the introduction of the pension levy for public servants as part of a savings package worth up to \2 billion, the Government has responded to bring the budgetary figures under control. I acknowledge the realism of the people in accepting the level of adjustments already made. Sacrifices have been made in the public interest right across the country. However, the situation continues to deteriorate and in order to adhere to the commitments we gave to return the current budget to surplus by 2013, it has been necessary to introduce new taxation and expenditure proposals to keep the budgetary projections on track. Yesterday the Commission published the proposed Council recommendation on the excessive deficit procedure for Ireland. This is a normal part of the operation of the Stability and Growth Pact and follows on from the Commission’s report on Ireland last month which was triggered because the deficit for 2008 had exceeded the 3% GDP limit. I welcome the endorse- ment in the Commission documents released yesterday of the Government’s aim to reduce the deficit below 3% by 2013 as set out in the addendum to the stability programme and its overall budgetary strategy. Council recommendations are designed to support the member state concerned in the implementation of appropriate, if difficult, budgetary measures. The proposed recommendation has not yet been considered by the ECOFIN Council. It will be discussed at the Economic and Financial Committee which will be attended by officials from my Depart- ment later this week. The ECOFIN Council is due to consider the recommendations for Ireland and the other euro area countries, Greece, France and Spain, at its informal meeting on 3 and 4 April. As is normal in these circumstances, I have been in regular contact with the Com- mission and my European colleagues with regard to the position of the public finances. I have been glad to receive the support of the Commissioner for Economic and Monetary affairs, Mr. Almunia; the ECB president, Mr. Trichet, and my Council colleagues for the overall budgetary strategy we have undertaken in order to restore stability to the public finances, while taking steps also to support economic activity and employment and improve competitiveness. In the course of the debate many Deputies made references to the banking system. I shall say a few words on the Government’s approach to the global financial crisis and the difficulties facing our domestic banks. The financial crisis, as it unfolded, has demanded Government 753 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

[Deputy Brian Lenihan.] interventions in most developed countries. Governments have guaranteed liabilities of banks, injected capital into them, provided short-term liquidity facilities to ensure they can access funds as required and, in a number of cases, taken banks into the protection of public ownership. This is a global problem and governments across the world have intervened repeatedly to ensure financial stability. The Government’s approach to this unprecedented crisis in global financial markets has been structured and considered. It is important to note that this approach has at all times been informed by advice from, and in consultation with, the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland, the National Treasury Management Agency and legal and financial advisers. In addition, the Government has had and will continue to have regard to discussions with and agreed principles at EU level. Through the bank guarantee, recapitalisation and the protection of public ownership, we have provided very real support for the banking sector. As a result, the citizens of Ireland now have a very large stake in its recovery. However, the support is not unconditional and the State will receive substantial fees for the assistance provided. Further conditions such as board representation, a commitment to a bank customer package and restrictions on remuneration have been imposed. There is no doubt that regulatory and corporate governance failures have contributed to the current state of affairs. The Government is committed to reforming the regulatory system as a matter of priority, a matter to which I will come shortly. I wish to deal with the case of Irish Nationwide Building Society and payments to its CEO. I have stated the board and management team must be reviewed. Recent disclosures with regard to——

Deputy Joan Burton: Has he resigned?

Deputy Brian Lenihan: I am not aware of the position of Mr. Fingleton.

Deputy Joan Burton: Did the Minister ask for his resignation?

Deputy Brian Lenihan: As I indicated, I have had a discussion. This is not Question Time. I noted the Deputy’s comments yesterday evening. It is important that she notes I had a full discussion yesterday with the two directors appointed to the board of the society at my request and that I raised certain matters with them. These matters will be under consideration by the board of the society later this week and the directors will report to me——

Deputy Joan Burton: The Minister is the decision maker.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Please allow the Minister to speak.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: I am not putting myself in the position of decision maker in this matter. Deputy Burton is well aware of the corporate governance rules that apply.

Deputy Joan Burton: That is denial.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: My concerns have been fully expressed to the relevant directors at Irish Nationwide Building Society. They met me with the consent of the board and will raise these issues with it and report back to me. That is how Ministers should conduct themselves. With regard to the banking system, Deputies should conduct themselves with a degree of restraint in this matter because what is said in the House is reported around the world. Legit- imate criticism of the banking system is most welcome but sensationalist commentary does the country no good abroad. 754 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Joan Burton: An apology from the Minister would do the country a lot of good, abroad and here.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: I have nothing to apologise for——

Deputy Joan Burton: An apology from the Minister and his colleagues——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Please allow the Minister to conclude his remarks.

Deputy Joan Burton: ——would do the country and its international reputation a lot of good.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister has limited time.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: We all know where Deputy Burton stood with regard to the banking system last September. It would not be in place now if the House had followed her advice.

Deputy Joan Burton: My analysis was absolutely correct.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: I stress the Government’s commitment to continuing to review the position of the financial system——

Deputy Joan Burton: It was 100% correct. Unfortunately, the Minister was not properly advised.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: ——and to protect relevant institutions. In the context of the six- month review of the guarantee scheme to be completed by mid-April, the Government will examine how the scheme might be revised subject to European Commission approval and consistent with EU state aid requirements to achieve a reduction in risk overall, including by supporting longer term bond issuance by the covered institutions. The Government is also reviewing proposals for dealing with the risks associated with certain assets. In this context, I asked Dr. Peter Bacon and the National Treasury Management Agency to report to the Government on the matter.

Deputy Joan Burton: What will the Minister pay for the toxic assets?

Deputy Brian Lenihan: The report prepared by Dr. Bacon for the NTMA has been passed to me and it will inform the Government’s ongoing considerations——

Deputy Joan Burton: Will the taxpayer be ripped off?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Please allow the Minister to continue.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: ——involving the Financial Regulator, the Central Bank, the NTMA and its legal and financial advisers.

Deputy Joan Burton: Another rip off for the taxpayer.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: Let us be clear on one point. Deputy Burton has a choice with regard to the future of the country. We have a banking system in place.

Deputy Joan Burton: We chose not to have the taxpayer pay——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Please allow the Minister to continue.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: Deputy Burton chose to oppose the guarantee given to the banks last September—— 755 Pre-Budget Statements 25 March 2009. (Resumed)

Deputy Joan Burton: Yes, because it was wrong.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: ——because she wished to continue to talk out of the side her mouth.

Deputy Joan Burton: It was the worst financial decision made by a Government since independence.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Please allow the Minister to make his remarks without interruption.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: Deputy Burton wished to talk out of the side of her mouth about bail-outs and such matters and what she would not agree to do——

Deputy Joan Burton: It was the worst decision made by a Government.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: ——unlike the Fine Gael Party which took a very responsible attitude on that occasion. She decided to play politics with the Irish banking system. Her voice resonates around the world——

Deputy Michael D. Higgins: We did not sign a blank cheque.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: ——but I can tell her she does nothing but damage with the comments she has just made.

Deputy Joan Burton: The Minister is still busy trying to bail out his friends, the bankers——

Deputy Brian Lenihan: There is no bail-out of the banks. The Deputy has now accused me of corruption on the floor of the House. How dare she? Let her repeat it outside the House.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Brian Lenihan: Nothing I have ever done in public life characterises that kind of comment.

Deputy Joan Burton: It is crony capitalism. Crony capitalism will not——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Please, Deputy Burton. I will ask the Deputy to leave the House.

Deputy Brian Lenihan: The report prepared by Dr. Bacon has been passed to me and will inform the Government’s ongoing considerations involving the Financial Regulator, the Central Bank, the NTMA and its legal and financial advisers. Structurally, reform is needed in the regulatory and supervisory system. I will announce in more detail the sweeping reforms that will be introduced in due course but they will underpin the approach to the global financial crisis and the difficulties facing our domestic banks. The financial crisis, as it unfolded, has demanded these interventions in many ways. Governments have guaranteed the liabilities of banks, injected capital into them, provided short-term liquidity facilities to ensure they can access funds as required and, in a number of cases, have taken banks into public ownership. I am determined that the actions of those bankers who have clearly damaged our international reputation will be addressed. We will reform, rebuild and restore our international reputation as a global centre for banking and finance. New standards of corporate governance will provide confidence for those that are here and those that wish to locate here that Ireland is committed to having the highest international regulatory and supervisory standards. I am moving, as a priority, to reform the regulatory structure through the proposed full integration 756 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed) of the Central Bank’s responsibilities with the regulatory and supervisory functions of the Financial Regulator. This reformed structure is expected to deliver these new high standards of banking and financial regulation and corporate governance that the people expect them to observe. The creation of a single oversight institution charged with the important functions of ensuring financial stability, reinforcing prudential supervision and pursuing regulatory integrity throughout the entire financial sector in Ireland will involve a fundamental reform and I will look to ensure best EU and international practice is applied to Ireland’s regulatory system. We want to send a strong signal that the practices followed in some of our institutions are unacceptable, that the regulatory lapses will not be repeated and that Ireland remains committed to the continued development of a soundly based, well regulated and competently super- vised financial services sector. It is vital that we continue to take all steps necessary to get the banking system fully operating again. A fully functioning, well regulated financial system that attracts confidence and credibility inside and outside the country will be fundamental to our economic recovery. The recapitalisation of Allied Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland is targeted at underscoring the stability of the sector and restoring credit flows. I remind the House that conditional on the capitalisation programme is improved access to credit for small and medium-sized enterprises and first-time buyers, as well as new safeguards for those homeowners facing difficulties at this time. Only this morning I launched, with a vice president of the European Investment Bank, a fund of \300 million available to Allied Irish Bank, Bank of Ireland and Ulster Bank to support small and medium-sized enterprises. The forthcoming supplementary budget will expand on the plan the Government has been following in dealing with our economic difficulties. The restoration of order to the public finances, detailed adjustments to taxation and expenditure programmes and the continued development of Ireland’s smart economy, the framework for which was published 7 o’clock last December, will be central themes in the ongoing measures to revitalise the economy. This has been a useful debate which I have been following closely and which will inform the Government’s deliberations in what is, by any standard, one of the most important budgetary announcements in many years. These are the building blocks which will move the country forward by enhancing our competitiveness and stabilising the budgetary framework. I look forward to giving full details to the House on 7 April.

Private Members’ Business

————

Oireachtas Reform: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Phil Hogan on Tuesday, 24 March 2009: “That Da´il E´ ireann: — recognising the unnecessary expansion of the numbers of Ministers of State in 2007; — mindful of the need to reform and upgrade the way that Government undertakes its work on behalf of the people; and — understanding the need for the Oireachtas and the Government to be seen to lead by example in the current economic crisis facing the country; calls on the Government to: — reduce the number of Ministers of State by eight, from 20 to 12; and 757 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

— reduce the ministerial staff allocated to work on constituency matters to two per Minister.”

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1: To delete all words after “Dail Eireann” and substitute the following:

“— acknowledges that the business of Government has grown in terms of volume and complexity, and that Ministers of State play an important role in the delivery of the policy aims set out in the programme for Government; — notes that Ministers and Ministers of State have taken a 10% reduction of pay in addition to the public sector pension levy; — acknowledges that the Minister for Finance has asked that savings of at least 10% be made in the costs of running Ministers’ offices and that reduction has been implemented; — acknowledges the work being overseen by the Minister for the Environment, Heri- tage and Local Government to progress the issue of Seanad reform; — acknowledges that the Cabinet has established a committee to draw up a comprehensive programme of reforms to ensure that the Da´il carries out the business of Parliament within an efficient and modern framework, and recognises the need to ensure the best return to the Exchequer; — acknowledges the proposals set out by the Oireachtas Commission, which will result in savings of up to \4 million in the commission’s annual budget, and urges a speedy outcome to the discussions which are ongoing with the Minister for Finance; — recognises that the Government will continue the process of reducing the costs of the Oireachtas and the political system in general; and — urges the expenditure review group to expedite its review of where reductions can be achieved within the Oireachtas.” —(Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Pat Carey). An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Michael D. Higgins was in possession and has ten minutes. I ask the House to come to order.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins: I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion. In a way it makes a seamless connection to what we have just heard. Discussions about parliamentary reform in general, and of ministerial appointments in particular, raise the issue of trust. It is the most important aspect of a society. I have had the great opportunity and privilege of being a Member of this House for over 20 years and of the other House for nine years and also of being a political scientist. As I listened to the Minister for Finance, I could not but be struck by the high tone that was addressed to the Labour Party because it sought in the debate on a financial matter to make sure that no guarantee was given that was not in the public interest and was not totally transparent. Again, the issue of trust is so important. I refer to a recent study by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Piggott which shows that trust is incredibly important and also, interestingly, to be the result of societies that have been characterised by more equality than inequality. In other words, the more equal the society, the more easily the citizens can relate to and trust each other. There is a contrast in unequal societies. For the sake of safety, I will cite cases in the United States. Where there is deep inequalities, 758 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed) one sees gated communities in housing and large aggressive vehicles rather than smaller cars. It is as if people are protecting themselves against fellow citizens. One of the things we have to make sure in everything we do is to say nothing that damages the importance of politics as a profession and political representation in this House as something that is the outcome of a long flow of development. We should remember how we got here. Parliament excluded people without property, women and people of a certain age and so forth. We have to make certain that what we do at this time contributes to the recovery of trust and strengthens representative democracy. In that regard, it is important that there is a sense of courage with regard to the media. We have not had a good relationship with the media in recent decades. For example, where there is a fundamental difference between parties of the left and parties of the right, not only does the media not engage with their different perspectives, but it seeks to dismiss both of them by simply saying “the politicians”. This is ignorant, lazy and damaging. It encourages a kind of corrosive cynicism among the citizenry and people who indulge in it should be quite ashamed at their inability to rise to the level of being what is known as a “Pol. Corr.”, as it is called in Irish colloquial reference. It is interesting too to draw a distinction between that kind of casual comment and, for example, the tradition in European parliaments of the parliamentary essay. I think of the essay in a newspaper like El Paı´s. I will turn now to a few general points that are important. If we are talking about parliamentary reform and what happens in this House, one does not read some tautological business. I have a personal view in that I have been against the shortening of time for speeches from the time I was a Member of the House with John Maurice Kelly and others. I would have preferred to speak more rarely but be able to engage with a subject substantively. I do not like the idea of short periods of time that are divided among Members and where speeches are written out. We should ask whether we have advanced Parliament by doing that. Regarding the motion, there are many Ministers of State but one should not judge the number of Ministers of State on the basis of the patronage of the leader of the party in power. That is where it is wrong. There is a need for some Ministers of State but there must be justification of Ministers of State beyond the members of Cabinet. With regard to the function of a Minister of State, is it reasonable in current conditions to expect a Minister, a member of Cabinet, to attend any kind of public function organised by a corporate body? Should they not provide their own entertainment? I remember when I had the honour of twice being the mayor of a city and people would say things like, “I am glad to see the chain is here tonight.”, as if it did not matter who was wearing the thing.

Deputy John Curran: It was more on the Deputy’s side than ours now.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins: I am making general comments and if the Deputy wishes to provoke me, I would advise him not to do so, even if I have five or six minutes left. The allocation of Ministers of State should be based on function and I suggest the Ministers of State should be engaged with the committees structure. The committees structure was introduced late and it differs substantively from developed committee systems such as the system is Sweden, which is now in the European Union with us. The government there does not have a monopoly of the public service and therefore Opposition members of a committee are entitled to use the public service in exactly the same way as Cabinet members. There is an arm’s length relationship between the Minister and the head of the Department. The committee is entitled to frame, introduce, reform and amend legislation. One can see that our committees are very close to the Department and also how close the Minister is to the Department. These should be arm’s length relationships. 759 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

[Deputy Michael D. Higgins.]

I refer to how committees in Sweden are funded. People developing a career in Scandinavian politics might decide to go on a critical path such as social welfare, housing and then move on to finance or whatever. People are given a fulfilling career while, at the same time, the media in preparing for their interaction with the committees, are involved in research and writing essays about the different options coming before the committees. I will come now to the Seanad as my last point. We need a careful development of the importance of politics among the public and this is crucial. People have made global comments about abolition or reform of the Seanad. We have always had a Seanad in this State except for the year 1936 when Mr. De Valera abolished the Seanad for reasons about obstructionism as he saw it and its Unionist tendency, but it was brought back in the 1937 Constitution, very much under the influence of the Quadragesimo Anno thinking and the corporatist fashion of the 1930s. Yes, it could be reformed. However, I am hesitant about those who say we should abolish it. I was a Member of Seanad E´ ireann from 1973-77 and again in the period 1982-87, in two different capacities. I recall great reforming legislation being passed in the Seanad long before it was passed in this House. I recall, for example discussing the abolition of the status of illegitimacy, a Bill I produced, with the then Senators Mary Bourke — later Mary Robinson — and John Horgan. I distinctly recall a Senator stating, so backward were we about this at the time, that the abolition of illegitimacy was socialism under the sheets. It was much later before there was reforming legislation in the social area in this House. Therefore, historically, the Seanad has been the place where there has been legislative innovation. In the minute of my time remaining I shall summarise what should be done in relation to reform. The appointment of Ministers of State should not be a matter of patronage or satisfaction in a party sense, but should be related to function. It needs to be justified if it exceeds the number of people who are in Cabinet. In linking the role of the Minister, we need to look at many of the unreasonable demands being made on Ministers by corporate interests outside the Oireachtas. On the question of linking Ministers of State and the committee structure, I have given indications of what a genuine committee structure might be. Finally, as regards the Seanad, I believe we could have a very good debate as regards reform. This is my last appeal to colleagues in this regard, but it is a disastrous road to follow the populist path, with people who refuse to draw distinctions between the politics of right or left and seek to dismiss us all by language about “the politicians”, going on to suggest that we give up any kind of institutional activity or whatever. Let us have a debate about parliamentary reform, but let us do it positively and in a genuine comparative manner.

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Deputy Maíre Hoctor): With the agreement of the House, I would like to share time with the Ministers of State, Deputies John Curran, Michael P. Kitt, Martin Mansergh and Seań Power. Taím sa´sta labhairt ar an ru´ n seo anocht, agus taím an-sa´sta go bhfuil an seans agam e´ sin a dheánamh. In relation to tonight’s motion, I am not quite certain why the Opposition decided to target the Ministers of State. Nevertheless, it gives me an opportunity to outline the very serious work that is underway in my Department and within the office for older people. The Government has a proud record as regards innovative work and planning for the future. The business of Government has changed significantly in recent years and the changing demographic patterns give us no choice but to prepare for the future as regards the ageing population. It is a great achievement for all of us that we are living longer and healthier lives. It is only prudent, however, that in preparing for the future we learn from the work of other countries that have had to deal with such demographic change long before Ireland. We know that 760 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

11% of the population is over 65, but that means we are still among the youngest states in Europe. In Italy, 18% of the population is over 65 and in Germany the figure is 16%. I have no doubt Ireland would have also reached that demographic level were it not for the fact that so many of our people emigrated in the 1950s to the UK and America, to grow older abroad. The Agreed Programme for Government provided for a Minister of State with responsibility for older people. I am very conscious that many of the representative groups for older people lobbied for a Minister of State for older people, and I was privileged to be asked by the Taoiseach to accept that position. Some 5% of people over 65 are in long-term residential care, a relatively small but nonetheless very important percentage. In preparing for developments in this area in the future, I as Minister of State, am empowered under the devolved powers of sections 6, 7 and 10 of the Health (Nursing Homes) Act 1990 in preparation for the new Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill, which Members will know is at an advanced stage in the Houses at this point. However, the appointment of a Minister of State with responsibility for older people was also in anticipation of the preparation needed into the future. Statistics show that a baby girl born in Ireland this year has a significant chance of reaching the age of 100, because of medical advancements. In preparing for such eventualities, we must enable people. From my interaction with older people, I know they want to remain at home for as long as is possible. For the remaining 95% of the population we must therefore prepare for the future to enable that. That prompts me to mention the three Departments in which I am based: the Department of Health and Children, where the office for the Minister of State with responsibility for older people has been set up — I shall speak on this in a moment; the Department of Social and Family Affairs; and the Department of the Environment Heritage and Local Government, particularly as regards the area of housing for older people where I work with my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Finneran, especially as regards voluntary housing. The office was established last year to bring about improvements in the Government’s planning, policy and services delivery for older people. The setting up of a national advisory council on older people is at an advanced stage. Hopefully, the legislation will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas within the next couple of weeks. It is envisaged that the council will act in an advisory capacity to me, as Minister of State, in the preparation of a positive ageing strategy, which is underway at the moment. An interdepartmental team has been set up where representatives from each Department has met with me and my officials on a number of occasions. We are seeking to determine how each Department may address the needs and concerns of older people. Some significant advancements have been seen already in some Departments, such as the rural transport link in the Department of Transport, as well as many others. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to elaborate on them at this time, because my time has expired. However, I am very grateful to have had the opportunity to address the motion. I shall leave Fine Gael with one question. Is its motion saying that older people do not matter and that the office of Minister of State with responsibility for older people does not matter? I am not referring to myself, as the incumbent, but rather the office. On behalf of older people, I hope that is not the case.

Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy John Curran): I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this motion and debate tonight. I am disappointed at the manner in which Fine Gael has tabled this motion. To be blunt, I agree the whole area of Da´il reform needs to be the subject of debate and discussion, but this needs to be done in a detailed manner. The motion as presented tonight, which refers to reducing the number of Ministers of State from 20 to eight, is populist and the public would agree with it, but there is no indepth analysis as regards background and what should and should not be 761 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

[Deputy John Curran.] done. It is in isolation from any other Daíl reform. In that regard, I am very disappointed that Fine Gael has isolated a particular issue rather than dealing with the whole area of Daíl reform. I do not believe one can be done without the other and this motion is very populist. Of course that is what the public is saying. It can be applied to the number of Deputies, Members of the Seanad or whatever and the public will agree. However, the point is that the motion calls for a reduction in the number of Ministers of State from 20 to eight without the supporting evidence or background information as to why. I know the time available is short but, specifically as a Minister of State, it is important for me to outline, as one of the 20, what I am doing. Otherwise, it might be perceived that the role of a Minister of State is irrelevant. However, we should not be dealing with this as a stand- alone item. I mean this and, in that regard, I am disappointed that Fine Gael has tabled the motion in such a manner. I am all for Daíl reform. I have been a Member for a good number of years, and have looked at the committees and the manner in which we do our business. When the Opposition calls for a manual vote, 166 Members must walk through the lobbies which takes 15 minutes. That is the equivalent of one person losing one working week. We can do our business and make our protests in a much more effective and efficient manner, and that calls for real debate. I mention some of the things I do as Minister of State. Many people will know I have responsibility for the national drugs strategy. We are in the process of developing a new national drugs strategy which will run from now until 2016. It is fairly detailed and specific. While we are devising and developing the new strategy, there is much work to be done around implementation. However, I deal with many other issues and that is often missed. As Minister of State, I have had the privilege to introduce and complete legislation, and I use the word “privilege” because Ministers of State do not often get that opportunity. The charities legislation was quite complex and I acknowledge that through dialogue and discussions, I had the co-operation of Members of this House and the Upper House. I acknowledge the contribution of the Upper House in bringing in this comprehensive legislation. While we did not agree on every issue, the legislation introduced has the support of all Members of both Houses. As we implement the legislation, I expect that support will continue. Apart from the drugs strategy and the charities legislation, I also have responsibility for areas relating to community affairs, specifically issues for older people, including alarms, volun- teering, the local development and social inclusion programmes, the community development programmes and area partnerships. It is easy to brush that aside but we travel the country, meet people and implement programmes. I acknowledge that the senior Minister in my Depart- ment has, through Cabinet, devolved specific responsibilities to me on which I work. It is important Ministers of State state clearly their areas of responsibility and the work they do. Many colleagues from the Opposition will say I am the Minister of State with responsibility for the drugs strategy but I also have responsibility for other areas. It is only when one goes through the diary and the work schedule that one realises that the other areas occupy equal time and that they are of equal importance. It is easy to dismiss that. I am all for debate on Daíl reform but I am disappointed that we have picked a specific issue to debate. We cannot debate one issue in isolation. It is an unfair situation. Many colleagues opposite acknowledge that.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy Michael P. Kitt): I agree with my colleague that we should have a more comprehensive motion before us rather one simply proposing to reduce the number of Ministers of State. I 762 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed) would like a discussion on reform of the Oireachtas and the public service. I welcome the Daíl reform I have seen in my time in the Daíl, in particular in regard to Question Time. There have been many changes in that regard, including Leaders’ Question. I hope to see more reform so that Deputies can raise topical matters. I know how difficult it is and that the Opposition will always look for more reform than the Government is prepared to concede. The former Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Noel Dempsey, attempted to abolish the dual mandate. It was difficult for Fianna Faíl because we are the largest party. One of the reasons we did not do too well in the local elections was that we did not have the candidates we thought we would put forward. I am Minister of State with responsibility for local services. I was honoured to be appointed and when asked about my future in this job, I said it was a matter for the Taoiseach. However, I said there should be a Minister of State with responsibility for local services because it covers a wide area, including water services, climate policy, working with the Environmental Protection Agency and Met E´ ireann, the water safety programme, the fire services capital programme, the capital programme for public libraries and responsibility for county and city development boards and developing and strengthening their roles. Other Ministers made the point that there has been a 10% reduction in pay and a 10% reduction in the operating costs of Ministers’ offices. That has been difficult because we have lost staff in many Departments. We have tried to achieve savings by reducing overtime, general office expenses and travel. For my part, I have not travelled outside the country since my appointment but what else would one expect when dealing with local services? Issues such as postage and stationery have been looked at by my Department. The number of staff in Mini- sters’ offices is now down to two, for which the motion calls. I refer to what I regard as much uninformed comment on the role and work of Ministers of State. On “Prime Time” recently, I heard a reference to the State cars Ministers of State use. It was surprising that comment was made because it is over 25 years since the former Taoiseach, Garret FitzGerald, introduced the idea of Ministers of State purchasing their own cars and employing two civilian drivers who would share driving duties on a week on, week off basis. I could not believe that type of comment would be made. There is an idea that Ministers of State are provided with State cars driven by members of the Garda Sıóchańa. I would have thought there would have been some reference to joint committees in the motion. Many Deputies said we have too many committees and too many jobs for Chairmen, Vice Chairmen and convenors. I know the very good work committees do as I have served on a number of them in my time in both Houses. I was Chairman of the Joint Oireachtas Commit- tee on Education and Science from 1997 to 2002 and found it very interesting work. I hope we can expand on the work of committees. The motion is very selective and is limited to one issue. I thought Seanad reform would have been mentioned because many parties have put forward proposals on Seanad reform. There is an all-party group chaired by the Minister, Deputy Gormley, and I hope we will have a report from it soon. Over the past few weeks I have been interested in discussions on the spending limits to be imposed in the local elections. Over the past two days in the Seanad, many Members welcomed the spending limits and the fact people know one cannot buy an election. The same is true about staff. I agree with Fine Gael’s proposals on staff but as many Senators said, elections are about knocking on doors rather than dealing with the many restrictions laid down. People should not be worried about that because elections are about engaging with the electorate and knocking on doors to get support. 763 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Martin Mansergh): The Govern- ment, on the recommendation of the Taoiseach, decides on the number and role of Ministers of State. There is no doubt that the demands on Government and on its members have grown hugely over the past 40 years and that there is much value in cross-departmental co-ordination but we are also living at a time when the overhead costs of running the State have to be cut back. I was the first Minister of State to intervene in this debate last January, partly because responsibility in the Department of Finance makes me acutely conscious of the financial situation facing the country. Before ever I had the honour to be appointed a Minister of State, I would have held the view that in an ideal world, the number of junior and senior Ministers would correspond. As someone who is both the most junior ranking Minister of State but also having one of the longest political involvements going back to 1981, albeit most of that time in an unelected, advisory capacity, I wished to be helpful to the Taoiseach in terms of creating political elbow room should the Government wish or need to cut numbers. Several colleagues made similar points. There are alternative ways to cut overheads, including the 10% salary cut and pension levy, to which all Ministers are subject, the 10% cut being the equivalent in salary terms of a reduction of two Ministers of State. Many people in the constituency, and especially in the Tipperary electoral area, from where I come and where I am the first officeholder since independence, might not have thanked me for my offer. The men and women from Tipperary who helped bring about a revolution that led to independence were unselfish and I would rather emulate them than the class from which I am descended. The Opposition motion, and some of my backbench colleagues, would be more radical. Time may tell, if and when Fine Gael enter a coalition Government with others, whether they would practice what they now preach. I would not for short-term popularity advocate changes so severe that would seriously impair the effectiveness of Government. I try to run my constituency work in the most economical manner without employing permanent civil servants. I use the same three people who worked for me when I was a backbench Deputy, the only difference being that two of them who were job-sharing in Tipperary and Clonmel, respectively, are now full-time. I use my own car which I bought in 2006. I had no drivers for the first three and a half months in order to save money and I arrange my logistics so as to minimise overnight expenses. This year, I will travel to the ASEM conference, which I have been requested to attend by the Minister for Finance, economy class. I claim travel expenses which are conservatively estimated far below the maximum ceiling to which I might be entitled. Like many colleagues, I have to heavily subsidise the rental of my two constituency offices. While we all have something to contribute, none of us are indispensable, even those with a substantial workload. The Office of Public Works, founded in 1831, is an important branch of Government in its own right with an annual budget commensurate with some smaller Depart- ments. Its budget has now been cut back under my stewardship to half a billion euro from over \700 million a year ago. It has responsibility for public procurement, flood relief works, much of the State’s built heritage and the provision and maintenance of public buildings. Given current economic and financial difficulties, a substantial parliamentary load relating to the Department of Finance, including informally delegated responsibility for many areas, as well as representing the Minister and the Government at a number of conferences at home and abroad, has been devolved to me. With regard to the arts, where there is often an overlap of OPW responsibility, I am invited to launch and attend many cultural events. Through all my work there is also, by reason of past roles, a significant North-South dimension. 764 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

Across the board, in both the public and private sectors, the terms and conditions of employment for many people improved greatly during the Celtic tiger years, including for politicians. Now is a time for pruning back, in order to encourage healthy economic growth in the future, but the Government has to decide where best to do so. We must stop denigrating our democratic institutions. I would be in favour of maintaining our indirectly elected Seanad as a constitutional safeguard and I agreed with everything Deputy Michael D. Higgins had to say in that regard. Many countries operate list systems which means only a minority of politicians are directly elected by the people. If there were more interest in and reporting of policy debates rather than just power play and personality clash the debates in the Da´il, Seanad and committees would be better covered. I look forward to a dedicated TV channel. Political skills are needed not just in identifying the right solution but also in winning sufficient public support for them. Despotism, enlightened or otherwise, is not an acceptable alternative to accountable democratic politics.

Deputy John O’Mahony: I wish to share time with Deputies Bannon, Flanagan and Doyle.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy John O’Mahony: I am pleased to make a contribution to this motion and commend Deputies Hogan and Stanton for tabling it on behalf of Fine Gael. Listening to the previous speakers, including Ministers of State, I do not wish to personalise the issue in any way. There was a suggestion that Fine Gael was selective in this motion regarding Ministers of State and that it was not concerned about Da´il reform. My colleague, Deputy Stanton and others introduced a comprehensive document last week on Da´il reform. It has also been suggested that we raised a topic which should not be raised. Before I attended the Chamber I looked at some past press reports. In the Irish Examiner on 15 March a report stated 11 of the 20 Ministers of State said they would accept any moves by the Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen to remove them from their positions. The point being made is that this Fine Gael motion has not addressed this topic, it has been brought up in public and on the other side of the House. My only interest is that the business of Government is run in an efficient and transparent way, where the public is seen to get an efficient service from the people it elects and from the Ministers and Ministers of State who run the various Departments. For me personally, this motion is not about any individual who is a Minister of State. It is about the system in which they are asked to operate. We have arrived at a situation where the public does not get an efficient service or value for money. Over the years, and in particular in 2007, extra Minister of State posts were created not to give a better service but to help cobble together a Government and retain power. People were identified first and then jobs had to be found for them. That might be a good way to hang on to power but it is not an acceptable use of resources no matter who is in Government. If we are going to tackle the recession in our country we must all live within our means. That starts at the top and includes Deputies, and whatever else has to be done. We are starting at the top level. Fine Gael last week made wide-ranging suggestions on this matter and I commend our party leader and his Front Bench colleagues for bringing them forward at this time. The Government has asked for suggestions from this side of the House and now we are giving them. Someone has to give the lead on this matter and I am glad Fine Gael has provided it. Let us compare that with how the Government side of the House has reacted. When, a couple of months ago, a number of Ministers of State offered up their posts, if they were to be taken away, they were more or less slapped on the wrist and told to keep quiet and get on with 765 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

[Deputy John O’Mahony.] their jobs. This reminded me of the lectures that were given by the Taoiseach at the time, Mr. Haughey, in the 1980s when we were all told to tighten our belts, when, meanwhile, people at the top of the pile continued their extravagant lifestyle as before. The motto then was, and seems to be still, “Do as I say, not as I do”. This cannot go on. I tabled a question earlier today about the withdrawal of a school library service in Mayo in the October budget. The net effect of the decision on the ground is that books for special needs pupils are no longer being provided to children in certain primary schools as heretofore. I cannot get transport to a school sanctioned for a special needs child even though it would not cost anything extra as the parents were willing to link up with transport that already exists. Schools in Mayo and throughout the country are losing their rural co-ordinators because of cutbacks. Is it not reasonable that some of these services could be maintained if the number of ministerial posts were reduced? The Government is not willing to take the lead and set an example from the top. I have refrained, and I want to emphasise this point, from naming any Ministers of State in my contribution because it is not my intention to take cheap shots at anybody. I have dealt with many Ministers of State and know many of them personally. When I eventually find out who is in control of a particular situation I have always found the Ministers of State concerned to be courteous and helpful, but that is not the issue here. It is crazy that some Departments have four Ministers of State reporting to the senior Mini- ster. How can there be efficiency when there is such duplication? The whole system needs to be simplified and reduced so that a more efficient system is delivered by fewer people who have very clear roles. This should apply no matter who is in Government. We are not asking the other side of the House do something that we on this side are not prepared to do ourselves. It is not acceptable that a support staff of 187 is employed to service 20 Ministers of State at a cost of \8 million when we look, for instance, at the disproportionate effect of the education cuts in small schools where three teacher schools are to lose one teacher, a third of their staff. People are entitled to be very annoyed and even outraged when they see what is going on in the running of Government, where there is continual wastage and, meanwhile, the vulnerable are falling through the cracks in our health and education services. Given the acknowledgement by so many Fianna Fa´il and Green Party Deputies of the need to review the number of Ministers of State and the number of committees, I am surprised they do not propose to support the Fine Gael motion. This motion represents an ideal opportunity to take action on these issues. The Government has sought proposals from the Opposition. Now it has been presented with an ideal way of showing the bona fides of its request.

Deputy James Bannon: When considering the top-heavy composition of the Government, I am strongly aware that quality rather than quantity is the way forward if we are to create an effective, well-honed and economically-viable system of governance. However, even if there is a considerable pruning of the number of Ministers of State, the limitations of the Fianna Faíl- Green Party alliance are such that a thorough overhaul will only be achieved with a change of Government. This new Administration, led by Deputy Kenny, will bring honesty, integrity and respect to the nation. It is time to throw out the notion of jobs for the boys. An inflated Government that panders to the inflated egos of politicians overlooked for Minister of State positions is a luxury the State can no longer afford. Allowances for Chairmen and other officeholders within the Oireachtas committee system must be discontinued and the membership of those committees drastically reduced. Fine Gael has proposed wide-ranging Oireachtas reform as a direct response to calls 766 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed) for such action from those who should be calling the tune, namely, the taxpayers. We have a Government that demands cutbacks which impact on the old, the young and the vulnerable while itself refusing to take any share of the pain. It is time to clear out these dinosaurs. The only solution to this toxic Government of Fianna Faíl and the Green Party is a general election. Old habits die hard. A Government that is used to the Galway tent lifestyle is clinging to the trappings of wealth while looking to others to make good the deficit it caused. Freedom of information disclosures have revealed its excesses to taxpayers and they are no longer willing to shoulder the burden alone. However, the Taoiseach refuses to reduce the number of Mini- sters of State and their staff which cost taxpayers more than \8 million annually. Meanwhile, the Minister for Finance demands income and pension levies from those least able to afford them. The figure of \8 million does not include the cost of State cars, drivers and other diverse expenses such as the laughable “walking around money”. It is scandalous that a Minister can draw an index-linked pension after serving less than five years. If these former Ministers are sitting Members, they will also be in receipt of a Deputy or Senator’s salary, as demonstrated by a certain politician in my constituency of Longford- Westmeath. This is in obvious contrast to the position of low and middle-income earners with families to support, mortgages to pay and no guarantee that they will have a job next week or next month. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin, acknowledged the difficulties faced by this sector when he observed yesterday that people earning \20,000 or \30,000 are obliged to endure income reductions while others have lost their jobs. At the same time, bankers are claiming they cannot work for as little as \500,000. The Minister remarked that there must be a change in this mindset. While I agree with the Minister on this point, I suggest that he look closer to home to effect such change. He works under an ineffectual Taoiseach who has an inflated basic pay of \257,024, plus perks and expenses. Forcing working families to pay for the Cowen recession is entirely wrong. The Government is imposing levies and cutbacks on ordinary people while continuing to embrace the Galway tent lifestyle. Despite the introduction of these hard-hitting measures, Ministers still consider their rear ends to be more precious than those of the average person. While they are worthy of expensive premier seats on aeroplanes, economy class is fine for those footing the Government’s bill. In addition to reducing the number of Ministers of State, the Taoiseach should also review the parameters of their role and the cost to the State. A number of Ministers of State, Deputies Seań Power, Conor Lenihan and Mansergh, have already acknowledged the inescapable fact that fewer Ministers of State would be viable by offering to step down from their posts. The Taoiseach should have accepted these resignations immediately in addition to several more, voluntary or otherwise. While undeniably laughable, it is also extremely worrying that the inflated collective ego of the Government dictates that it is necessary to burden the poor of this State of 4.3 million people with the cost of 20 Ministers of State. This is in sharp contrast to the situation in France where there are 22 equivalent positions for a population of more than 64 million. Is this indicative of the mismanagement and spendthrift ways of the Fianna Faíl-Green Party Government or the relative super-efficiency of the French Government, or both? According to the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, he and his Government find managing the affairs of 4.3 million people particularly difficult. Perhaps they could take a lesson from the French. I am sure it is also the case in that country that the business of government continues, as the Minister, Deputy Carey, described it, to grow year on year, both in volume and complexity. However, the French seem better able to cope with the increasing workload of government. I take this opportunity to compliment the French Government on the leadership it is providing within Europe. 767 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

[Deputy James Bannon.]

The Minister of State, Deputy Carey, agreed with the Fine Gael motion when he acknowledged that no sector of our society can be immune from the negative impact of the economic downturn. Moreover, he accepted it is important that we in the Oireachtas show leadership by putting our own house in order. The first step in this regard should be to reduce the number of Ministers of State and improve the efficiency of those remaining, thus reducing the scandalous wastage of taxpayers’ money. The way elderly people have been treated is shameful. The abuses being imposed by the Government on a daily basis are shameful. It was only when the door of the helicopter on which he was travelling some weeks ago fell off that we discovered that the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy Cullen, was availing of this means of transport to return from a fact-finding mission to Kerry. We do not know the extent of the expense being incurred by Ministers and Ministers of State on a daily basis. The forthcoming budget must contain measures to reduce the top-heavy nature of Govern- ment and to ensure the pain is equally shared by all sectors of society, including the Govern- ment, the Judiciary and the Presidency. Taxpayers’ backs have been broken by the burden of carrying the rich and the privileged who are the cronies of the Fianna Fa´il-led Government.

Deputy Terence Flanagan: I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate and I thank my colleagues, Deputies Hogan and Stanton, for bringing forward this timely motion. As the motion makes clear, there was an explosion in the number of Ministers of State in 2007 from 12 to 20. This increase can only be seen as an exercise in doling out jobs for the boys in an effort by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, to protect his position as leader of Fianna Faíl. Much has changed both nationally and internationally since 2007. There can be no doubt that 20 Ministers of State is too many and that we can no longer afford to pay for them or their staff. There are two Ministers of State each in the Departments of Foreign Affairs, Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has three while, incredibly, there are four at the Department of Health and Children. With more than 350,000 people on the live register and thousands more jobs on the line as more and more businesses make plans to shed staff, the Government needs to urgently reassess this situation. The bottom line is that 20 Ministers of State is an excessive number for a small country such as Ireland. The large number of Ministers of State and their staff mirrors the excesses present in our health system. We have a bloated administrative structure in the Health Service Executive, with large numbers of middle management staff, but insufficient numbers of front-line personnel. This week, statistics were published for the first time which show that not one of the State’s hospitals achieved a satisfactory rating. Something is definitely rotten in this State when we consider the number of people working in our hospitals and these results. It is outrageous that the taxpayer is paying salaries of \150,000 to Ministers of State and is also paying for an average of eight staff in their private and constituency offices. That is approximately four people in their ministerial offices and four in their constituency offices. Last year it cost the taxpayer \8 million to pay for the 189 staff in the offices of Ministers for State and it cost \3 million to pay for the 20 Ministers of State. There clearly is a question of value for money and what is morally right and acceptable in this economic climate. The people on the streets are questioning the value of the work these Ministers of State are doing. They are questioning the number of these Ministers of State and are very angry. They want to know what they are doing to contribute to the public good. People are looking for 768 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed) leadership and reform in this area. Where is the accountability? Ministers of State are not required to report to the Daíl or provide a record of the work they have done in their posts to the Daíl. Last week, my party leader, Deputy Kenny, announced a number of reform measures that need to be introduced in the Daíl and Seanad. If these reforms were implemented they would save the taxpayer between \35 million and \40 million over the term of a Daíl. Included in this package of measures is that the Government should reduce the number of Oireachtas committees from 19 to nine; no ministerial pensions should be paid while a Member continues to serve in either House of the Oireachtas; extend the power of the Oireachtas committees to hold people to account through compellability; and extend the Daíl sitting times to at least four days per week. As stated in the motion Fine Gael wants the number of Ministers of State to be reduced from 20 to 12. We also want the number of constituency staff working in the offices of Ministers of State to be reduced to two per Minister. Senior Ministers could use their existing staff, policy officers and advisers to do much of the work these Ministers of State do at present. A number of Ministers of State indicated recently in the media that they were prepared to stand down. I ask now that the Taoiseach take these Ministers of State at their word and axe eight Ministers of State in the forthcoming budget. On 7 April, an emergency budget will be introduced in this House which will certainly inflict more pain and misery on the ordinary taxpayers of this country. How can the Government expect the ordinary taxpayers of this country to take home less pay and accept this if no leadership is shown at the top? Proposals for Daíl and Seanad reform including the details of this motion, which would lead to enormous savings of taxpayers’ money, should be included in the budget 7 April.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I call Deputy Doyle. For his information there is actually ten minutes left in the slot.

Deputy Andrew Doyle: I had edited it down to seven minutes. If the Government were a constituent coming to us with its current financial predicament, we would probably send it to something like the MABS. The first question it would be asked would be what it could do to cut down its daily expense. What can it do without and still continue to do its job? One thing we could do is run the country with eight fewer Ministers of State. It might only save \6 million, which is one thousandth of what we think we might need to find in the next budget — budget 2009, part 3 or is it part 4? The advice to a citizen would be to identify what he or she must spend money on and what he or she must have to survive. It is no different for the arms of the State, the political system, the Government. Over the weekend I listened to “Spin FF” ask us to get involved in putting forward a national government to save itself rather than save the country. What happens when we try to put forward some sensible logical and significant saving proposals? We get the pathetic Govern- ment amendment, which finishes by urging “the expenditure review group to expedite its review of where reductions can be achieved within the Oireachtas”. I wrote a note beside that stating, “Who is in charge?” My God, the Government is urging the expediting of the expenditure review group in the face of having stated last September that it was in charge and would have an early budget. It did not know the figures at the time, but it was happy to hazard a guess. The upcoming budget will probably look to save three times what that “assertive” initiative was meant to do. The Government amendment also states it “acknowledges that the business of Government has grown in terms of volume and complexity”. So has the running of any school, primary or 769 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

[Deputy Andrew Doyle.] post-primary with a multitude of languages and cultures, and a multitude of different challenges to teachers, staff and pupils. Yet we have reduced the number of special needs teachers and classes. There is a school in Bray with 18 children with special needs even though the maximum should be 11 and the minimum is nine. I have not received an answer to this question yet. Will they all be assimilated into the one class which would breach the maximum or will seven of those children with the lowest level of disability need to go into mainstream classes and be picked up as best they can? The Government claims that because it has grown in complexity, it cannot trim its complement of Ministers of State by eight and merge responsibilities. When we were really flying we were able to manage with 17 and before that with 15. However, all of a sudden now that things have got more complex we have needed another three. People can make up their own minds as to why those extra three posts were created. I had only been in this House for a week as a new Deputy when that happened. At the time I suggested that the purpose behind those posts and the hullabaloo regarding new committees was to keep everybody happy and quiet. It is significant that when partnership was initiated it was to map the road to recovery back in the early 1990s. In 1997 it was taken and used as a vehicle for survival and political success for the incumbent main Government party. Everything was solved by spending more, creating more committees and subgroups, and putting people on boards here and there. The very same thing is happening with these Minister of State posts. We tabled a short and succinct Private Members’ motion that would effectively save \6 million from the Government’s cost base. It has been rejected with a pathetic amendment. Next week the Government will claim the Opposition is not bothered in engaging with it or in doing anything in the national interest. We are seeing the shields going up. While I welcome that the olive branch for the unions and employers to go back into partnership talks has been accepted, it may be that next week those on the Government side will suggest they do not need national government and will do it themselves. Everything that is done is calculated on the basis of what they need to do to survive. It is not about the best interests of the country.

Deputy David Stanton: I am aghast that two Ministers of State who were supposed to speak have not appeared for tonight’s debate. They must be so extraordinarily busy that they did not need to turn up. Ministers should be here for the entire debate. I sat here through the debate last night and tonight. Ministers come and go. They come in, make a brief contri- 8 o’clock bution and leave again. It shows the contempt with which Ministers treat this House especially during a debate on the role of Ministers of State. We were criticised by almost all Ministers of State who came in tonight for not having a wide-ranging discussion on Daíl reform. We have been trying to have a wide-ranging discussion on Daíl reform for years but the Government will not engage with us on it. Even the Ceann Comhairle has tried his utmost in a neutral, non-political fashion to get this going but the Government has not engaged. It is frustrating for all of us because we want see change. Today and yesterday, we decided to devote our precious Private Members’ time to the role of the Ministers of State because we thought it was so important. The Ministers and Ministers of State who came to the House told us we should debate many other issues but we believe this role is so crucial it deserves three hours of debate. Its purpose is to enhance, recognise and value the role of Ministers and State, which is what we have done by devoting all our Private Members’ time to it. It has been said by the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, that when matters get complicated, one needs more Ministers of State. Following the last general election, more Ministers of State were appointed but at that stage we were still in a boom and things were still going well. Now, 770 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed) we are moving into complicated times. Does this mean the Government will appoint even more Ministers of State? If one follows the logic, that should happen. When Deputy Cowen took over as Taoiseach, many of us expected that he would reduce the number of Ministers of State and that he would show leadership but he has not done so. We need leadership from the Taoiseach and the Government but it has not been forthcoming. As my colleagues have pointed out, we are asking schools, including special needs schools, across the country to cut back on teachers, we are asking for special classes to be abolished, we are asking for the number of home helps to be reduced and we are asking nurses to work longer and harder but, at the same time, we have the same number of Ministers of State in position. We, including the Government and the Taoiseach, must set an example and show leadership. We cannot allow special needs teachers and classes throughout the country to be abandoned and betrayed by Government and, at the same time, carry on in this House as if nothing matters. I have examined the number of Ministers of State. I find there is a problem in that one could end up diluting the role if there are more Ministers of State. It is a question of too many chiefs and not enough Indians. We devalue the role by having a ministry for almost everyone in the audience, which is what has happened. I do not want to personalise this because I have personal respect for my colleagues opposite and I do not want to name names or say someone is not doing a good job. What I suggest is that one could, for example, combine responsibility for health promotion and food safety with responsibility for older people. This is not impossible and would make sense. It would also remove one ministerial role. One could combine responsibility for lifelong learning and school transport with responsibility for science, technology and innovation, which would also make sense and one Minister of State could quite easily do that work, as happened in the past — again, that is another Minister of State gone. One could combine responsibility for local services and responsibility for housing and development, which would make sense and, in fact, one role would complement the other. This could be done without too much pain, apart from the fact one Minister of State would have to relinquish a position. It would be feasible to combine responsibility for food and horticulture and responsibility for fisheries and forestry with no problem, so, again, one of the ranks of Ministers of State would go. One could combine responsibility for labour affairs and responsibility for trade and commerce, given that when I first came to the House in 1997, that was the position and those roles were combined. One could combine responsibility for the drugs strategy and community affairs with responsibility for integration policy. What is happening in some areas is that some Ministers of State have overlapping responsibility. The Minister for Foreign Affairs is not overly busy. He seems to spend a lot of his time opening hotels, turning sods, topping off buildings and so on, so I see no reason why responsibility for overseas development could not return to the responsibility of the Minister. The Minister of State, Deputy Hoctor, who has thankfully stayed with us, asked earlier whether Fine Gael values older people. We do, greatly, and we value having an office for older people and a Minister of State with responsibility for older people. However, that does not mean we must have a Minister of State just for older people. It is quite possible the office could be complemented by being amalgamated with another role, as I suggested. The Minister of State, Deputy Curran, suggested we are being populist but, as I said earlier, that is not the case. In fact, we value the role of Ministers of State so much that we wanted to devote our time specifically to this role. The Minister of State, Deputy Curran, also said he was in favour of Daíl reform, to which I will return shortly. The Minister of State, Deputy Michael Kitt, said he wants more Daíl reform and I hope he will back this up when talking to 771 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

[Deputy David Stanton.] his colleagues. He also said there are too many committees. We could have included the committees as a focus of this debate but that would have taken the focus away from Ministers of State and we wanted to pay them a compliment, if one likes, and value them by focusing on them during this debate. The Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, informed us that the Government decides the role and number of Ministers of State, which is the position. He also made the interesting point that the number of Ministers of State and Ministers should correspond. I remind the Minister of State that at this stage we have 15 Ministers and 20 Ministers of State. It has gone way beyond the number that is required. Deputy Mansergh also made the point he was one of the first to offer to resign. Another speaker noted that when the Taoiseach was safely away in Japan, 11 Ministers of State decided they would offer themselves up and said that if the Taoiseach wanted to make cutbacks, they would accept them. A Cheann Comhairle, what is the position with regard to speaking time?

An Ceann Comhairle: Under normal circumstances, the Deputy would conclude at 8.10 p.m. However, the earlier speakers concluded early, which meant the Minister of State, Deputy Andrews, was late even though he was early. The situation is that I can call on the Minister of State to reply for five minutes and the Deputy’s party, as it is its Private Members’ time, may offer another speaker, if it so wishes. I have asked for that position to be clarified.

Deputy David Stanton: I was due to sum up but no speakers were present on the other side. I do not know how I can sum up a second time. Does this mean I can continue until 8.30 p.m.?

An Ceann Comhairle: In my opinion, the Deputy is entitled to continue until 8.30 p.m. if he does not wish to give way to the Minister of State.

Deputy David Stanton: If I give way to the Minister of State, I cannot respond again.

An Ceann Comhairle: No, but another speaker in the Deputy’s party can do so. The situation is quite discretionary. Technically, Deputy Stanton is not the proposer of the motion. That is Deputy Hogan, who is entitled to come in again. What I intended to suggest, if it is suitable, is that we would let the Minister of State speak for five minutes and that Deputy Hogan would sum up, if that is what you wish. If that is not what you wish, I am entirely in your hands.

Deputy David Stanton: In order to be helpful, would it be in order if I gave way to the Minister of State and I then came in a second time?

An Ceann Comhairle: To say the least, it is highly unorthodox. I do not know if Fine Gael wishes to put in another speaker after the Minister of State? Technically, it should put in a separate speaker.

Deputy David Stanton: It was not our problem because we were here when the Government people were not. I will continue and to be fair to the Minister of State——

Deputy Barry Andrews: On a point of order, I would be grateful if the Deputy would give way for five minutes so I could wrap up on behalf of the Government. I apologise if it is a slightly unorthodox mechanism but I would——

772 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

An Ceann Comhairle: I think what will happen now is that Deputy Stanton will finish his contribution, the Minister of State will speak for five minutes and Deputy Ring will then sum up for his party.

Deputy David Stanton: That is fair enough. I will continue. We welcome what is happening with regard to Seanad reform. The only Daíl reform I have seen in my time in the House has been the arrangement for the Taoiseach not to attend the Daíl on Thursdays and Leaders’ Questions being introduced, which was a motion put forward by Fine Gael. There is talk of extending the sitting time to Fridays but I respectfully suggest we do not want more of the same. We need to change how we do our business. We have made two suggestions, including that there be reform of the Daíl for the 21st century. While that is a long-term process, there are other changes that could be made straight away. For example, the Adjournment Debate could be reformed immediately. Currently, no debate takes place on the Adjournment Debate as Ministers and Ministers of State simply come into the House and read out a prepared script, not having heard what people have to say. There is no interaction and Members are not permitted to ask supplementary questions. It is not a debate, it is a farce. One might as well swap e- mails and not come into this House at all. Reform in this area could be introduced tomorrow. Deputies on all sides would like if they could raise topical issues each morning with Ministers to which they could receive a quick response. This would do away with the raising of matters under Standing Order 32 which, in my view, is a total waste of time because one does not get a response to matters raised.

Deputy Sea´n Power: We are not in the House all the time.

Deputy David Stanton: Quangos should be subject to scrutiny in this House by way of parliamentary questions. These are three areas in which change could be introduced immediately. In fairness to the Ceann Comhairle — I do not wish to draw him into the debate too much — he facilitated a discussion between us in this regard. Currently there exists an official standing sub-committee on Daíl reform, namely, the Com- mittee on Procedure and Privileges which has met only once since the election. Its only meeting was on 8 October 2008, which is not good enough if the Government is serious about Daíl reform. We had a lecture last night from Minister of State, Deputy Sargent. The Green Party in its manifesto states it wants the number of Ministers reduced from 15 to 12 and the number of Ministers of State reduced proportionally. They have moved away from this stance since going into Government although this was admitted last night. Under pressure, the Government established a working group on Daíl reform on 27 January. I was told on 3 February that the group would meet shortly. On 24 February, I was told the inaugural meeting of the group was planned for a couple of weeks time. The group consists of four members, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, the Minister of State, Deputy Pat Carey, and Senator Dan Boyle, who are supposed to put forward the Government’s argument for Daíl reform. The Opposition has put forward many initiatives but we have heard nothing on them from Government, which is a shame. We need change. Being a Minister should be a privilege, not an entitlement because one is a Fianna Faíl Deputy. The whole country is talking about this issue. It would be a concrete visible step were the Taoiseach to take the initiative and reduce the number of Ministers of State. Denmark has 20 Ministers and no Ministers of State. The same applies in respect of the Netherlands. Other European countries have fewer Ministers of State than Ireland. I understand that in New 773 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

[Deputy David Stanton.] Zealand, which has the same population as Ireland, there are 14 Ministers and eight Ministers of State. The State does not exist to serve Fianna Fa´il; it is the other way round. Fianna Fa´il has been in Government so long it believes the State is its own fiefdom with which it can do what it likes. It is time for change. Given our current difficulties, and the fact we are asking for change and that people across the country make huge sacrifices, change should start here. There must visible and tangible change in terms of how we do our business. The first step in this regard would be to reduce the number of Ministers of State.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Deputy Barry Andrews): I acknowledge that Deputy Stanton has bona fides on this subject which I have discussed with him previously in the corridors. The Deputy repeated this evening many of the points he makes in private in regard to Da´il reform. However, I must address my remarks to the motion before the House. Deputy Doyle stated that the saving envisaged in this motion constitutes 1,000th of what is needed, a revealing and honest point. I cannot then but wonder why we are having a three- hour debate on such a minor issue during a time of serious crisis in this country. I do not believe there are not in Fine Gael people who questioned the need for a three-hour debate on an issue on which one could make a net point in approximately ten seconds. Fine Gael could simply have made a submission to Government requesting a reduction in the number of Mini- sters of State from 20 to 15 and so on.

Deputy John O’Mahony: The Government needs to show leadership.

Deputy Barry Andrews: It is a ten second point, a soundbite.

Deputy David Stanton: We are being listened to.

Deputy Barry Andrews: Let us be fair, it is populous. Deputy Kenny is populist, not popular. The minor nature of these savings——

Deputy James Bannon: Who is the Minister of State to judge anyone on this side of the House? The Minister of State is completely out of order and I ask him to withdraw that remark.

An Ceann Comhairle: We cannot start that now.

Deputy James Bannon: The Minister of State should withdraw his remark. Who is he to judge any politician on this side of the House? He should be ashamed of himself for treating the Opposition with contempt.

An Ceann Comhairle: I have no power to intervene.

Deputy James Bannon: It is no wonder the people will be seeking change in the next election.

An Ceann Comhairle: Please allow Deputy Andrews to complete his contribution.

Deputy Sea´n Power: Who is Deputy Bannon to judge us or the electorate?

Deputy Barry Andrews: I want to deal further with the comments made by Deputy Doyle. He made the interesting comment that if one was dealing with one’s household budget and if it was seriously in debt and one chooses to spend a whole evening considering 1,000th of that 774 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed) debt, one would have to question what it was one was trying to do. I accept there is a demonstration effect in terms of what we do as Ministers, Deputies and Members of the Oireachtas.

Deputy David Stanton: If the Minister of State had been in the House earlier, he could have listened to the debate.

Deputy Barry Andrews: There is also a demonstration effect in our spending three hours discussing an issue as minor as this. Capital markets are looking at this country wondering whether we have the capacity to get out of our current difficulties.

Deputy James Bannon: They are looking at the toxic Government we have in this country.

Deputy Barry Andrews: I find absolutely amazing the fact that the national debate was geared by Fine Gael this week to deal with the demotion of five to seven people.

Deputy Andrew Doyle: We have had facile days spent on statements.

Deputy Barry Andrews: Members opposite speak about leadership. Deputy Bannon is getting excited about leadership. Leadership is not about trying to plug into the prevailing mood and going with it. Leadership is about leading. Last week, we had a debate on Ministers of State, which the people have left behind——

Deputy James Bannon: Where has the leadership been for the past 20 years?

Deputy Barry Andrews: Deputy Bannon is stuck with this Private Members’ motion which is——

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Bannon should allow the Minister of State to complete his contribution.

Deputy James Bannon: The Government brought us into the dregs we are in today. The Cowen recession. The Cowen slump.

Deputy Barry Andrews: ——-without any interest. In journalism and politics people get obsessed with issues that, while interesting, are not important. Who will lose their position as Minister of State is an interesting issue.

Deputy Andrew Doyle: Last week, America dealt with the $186 million bonuses paid to AIG.

Deputy Barry Andrews: That is interesting but it is tabloid politics.

Deputy Andrew Doyle: The issue took up a whole week of discussion in America given its significance.

Deputy Barry Andrews: It is tabloid politics and populism. Fine Gael need to be honest with themselves and accept——

Deputy James Bannon: Fine Gael is honest. It is the Fianna Fa´il cronies that have raided this country.

Deputy Barry Andrews: ——that this motion is naked populism.

An Ceann Comhairle: I will have to ask Deputy Bannon to depart the scene if he continues to interrupt the Minister of State. 775 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

Deputy Andrew Doyle: Coast to coast in America the issue was about the $186 million in bonuses paid to AIG. It is a significant issue.

Deputy Barry Andrews: I want now to underline some of the points made by Government speakers. One point is the vital role played by Ministers of State in many different Depart- ments. In terms of my work, the amount of responsibility is immense. The workload is ten times greater than the workload of a backbencher. These are facts. People tell me on a daily basis that they would not take on my job for all the tea in China. Ministers of State do valuable and important work. In fairness, Government and Opposition speakers were united in saying the vast majority of Ministers and Ministers of State are doing extremely valuable work. Members will see from many of the contributions made during the past two days that this is the case. There are reforms coming down the line in the Seanad and through the Oireachtas Com- mission. Equally, changes have taken place recently. Last year, we as Ministers and Ministers of State voluntarily undertook a cut in salary. We, too, are affected by the pension levy. If people require further demonstration that Ministers and Ministers of State are willing to lead, share the pain and make sacrifices, we will do that. Ultimately, we must ask whether the demonstration effect has been successful thus far.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister of State’s time has expired.

Deputy Barry Andrews: I believe this is an important issue but it is very much a niche and in-house issue. It is a minor issue which seeks to address 1,000th of the problem by way of a three-hour debate. Fine Gael has taken its eye off the ball.

Deputy Michael Ring: I would like to begin by saying that the two Ministers of State have shown their total disrespect for the House and for the Ceann Comhairle. Neither of them came in on time to listen to this debate. They missed their slot. When they finally came in, they started lecturing the Opposition about the motion we have brought before the House.

Deputy Barry Andrews: It is a debate.

Deputy Michael Ring: This motion is not about what we——

Deputy Barry Andrews: I did not lecture the Opposition.

Deputy Michael Ring: The Minister of State lectured us.

Deputy Barry Andrews: I just made my points.

Deputy Michael Ring: The Minister of State told us that there were far more important things we could have raised.

Deputy Barry Andrews: There was no lecturing.

Deputy Michael Ring: It just shows how out of touch the Deputies on the other side of the House are.

Deputy Barry Andrews: We are not out of touch.

Deputy Michael Ring: They are out of touch with the people and with the country as a whole. We are being told on a regular basis that there are too many Ministers of State in this small country of 3.5 million people. 776 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

Deputy Barry Andrews: That point has been made.

Deputy Michael Ring: This country has the same population as the greater Manchester area, so it should not take 15 Ministers and 20 Ministers of State to run it.

Deputy Barry Andrews: It has taken Fine Gael three hours to make that point.

Deputy Michael Ring: The Government has run the economy into the ground. The people are waiting outside for the Deputies on the Government side. I would like to say a few things about this House. While the Ceann Comhairle and I have had our differences, I have to say he has been one of the best Chairs during my time in this House. I regularly have to write to the Ceann Comhairle when Ministers and Ministers of State, including the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, refuse to answer Opposition questions that are put to them in this House. We end up having to submit freedom of information requests to get the details we want. Civil servants and Ministers prefer to show the two fingers to democracy and to the Opposition, rather than answer the questions that are asked.

Deputy David Stanton: Absolutely.

Deputy Michael Ring: I remind the Minister of State that some of the recent tribunals, such as the beef tribunal, would not have been needed if Ministers from his party had answered questions.

Deputy Barry Andrews: What does that have to do with this debate?

Deputy Michael Ring: It has a lot to do with the debate.

Deputy Barry Andrews: Tell us.

Deputy James Bannon: It is a question of responsibility in government.

Deputy Michael Ring: Am I right in saying that in one instance, the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, did not even read his brief when it was given to him? Is that correct?

Deputy Barry Andrews: Yes.

Deputy Michael Ring: He did not even read his brief, even though we are paying him over \100,000.

Deputy Barry Andrews: The Deputy should not get excited.

Deputy Michael Ring: The smart alec could not read his brief.

Deputy Barry Andrews: The Deputy does not know what he is talking about.

Deputy Michael Ring: We paid millions for a report that the Minister for Finance did not even read.

Deputy Barry Andrews: The Deputy interrupts everybody, but he does not like to be interrupted.

Deputy Michael Ring: He would not read his brief. He was not able to tell us what was in his brief. 777 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

Deputy Barry Andrews: We are supposed to accept it when he interrupts us.

Deputy Michael Ring: The Minister of State has lectured Fine Gael tonight about the motion we tabled this week.

Deputy Barry Andrews: The Deputy does not know what he is talking about.

Deputy Michael Ring: He should not lecture us. We have had enough lectures from Fianna Fa´il. Ministers and Ministers of State will not answer the questions asked by the Members of this House. Deputy Stanton is quite correct to point out that both Fine Gael and Fianna Fa´il are frustrated with the way this House is operated.

Deputy Barry Andrews: I have been having a debate with the Deputy this evening. Fine Gael claims that it wants more debate in the House, but it does not allow people to speak during those debates.

An Ceann Comhairle: I ask the Minister of State to allow Deputy Ring to continue.

Deputy Michael Ring: He had his shot. I just want my shot.

Deputy Barry Andrews: I was interrupted by Deputy Bannon.

An Ceann Comhairle: Two wrongs do not make a right.

Deputy Michael Ring: The Taoiseach does not even appear in this House on Thursdays. He thinks it is far more important to open pubs in County Offaly, just as the Minister, Deputy Harney, once thought it was appropriate to use a helicopter to go to County Leitrim to open a off-licence.

Deputy Barry Andrews: What does that have to do with a debate on the number of Ministers of State?

Deputy Michael Ring: Ministers will not come into this House to answer questions. I emphasise to the Minister of State that this country needs reform. We want the political system to be reformed so that the Taoiseach and his Ministers and Ministers of State are accountable to this House, rather than to interests outside it. That is necessary if the scandals that have plagued this House are not to be repeated. We need a smaller number of stronger committees. The former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, introduced a system of allocating jobs that reminds me of “The Late Late Show” in the sense that there is one for everybody on the back benches. With two exceptions, every Fianna Fa´il Deputy has a job that attracts an extra salary. The boys and girls of Fianna Fa´il who are not Ministers or Ministers of State have been given back bench positions to stop them from complaining to the Taoiseach. Given that the Green Party agrees with us, I am glad that the Minister of State from that party, Deputy Sargent, is now present in the House. I am sure he will vote with us tonight.

Deputy Trevor Sargent: I would love to.

Deputy Michael Ring: The Green Party has said it agrees that there are too many Ministers of State. I understand that some of them have offered to resign, on which I compliment them.

Deputy Trevor Sargent: There is just one Minister of State from the Green Party. 778 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

Deputy Michael Ring: Some of the Fianna Faíl Ministers of State have offered to resign too. We need a debate on the reform of this House, which cannot continue to operate as it has over recent years. Some years ago, I went to the High Court to fight the decision to abolish the dual mandate. I was annoyed that Fianna Faíl had chosen to take that decision from the people. The Chief Whip, Deputy Pat Carey — he did not hold that position at the time — told a judge in the Four Courts that one of the reasons the then Government wanted to abolish the dual mandate was to facilitate more frequent sittings of this House, for example on Mondays and Fridays. I can send the Ministers of State opposite a copy of the court transcript if they like. During the ongoing economic crisis, this House has frequently not been sitting when major decisions have had to be taken. It took a long break at Christmas and another break last week. I suppose the same thing will happen at Easter. The Government runs out of the House every time it gets an opportunity to do so. The Daíl does not need to sit on days other than Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, which are the days on which it sits at present. However, there is no need for this House to be closed on those days in the middle of July and in September. I suggest that we should close down for the month of August and for a week at Christmas. This House should be accountable to the people of Ireland, who pay their taxes and elect Deputies. They expect us to represent them and to debate the issues of the day in this Chamber. All Ministers run out of the House as soon as they get an opportunity to do so. We have had social partnership for the past 20 years. It worked for a while, but it has not been working over recent years. Part of the problem with social partnership is that the Government now thinks it is more important to talk to the unions than to talk to the elected representatives of the people. That has been a big mistake. Fine Gael has proposed a reduction from 20 to 12 in the number of Ministers of State. I will not embarrass the Ministers of State who are responsible for matters like bicycles and buses by naming them. Some of them do not know what responsibilities they have. That has happened in this House. There is no need for a small country like Ireland to have so many Ministers of State. It is not a question of the amount of money that will be saved — it is a question of the message that will be transmitted to the people of this country.

Deputy David Stanton: That is the important thing.

Deputy Michael Ring: The message we will send out is that we understand they are suffering and paying their taxes and that we accept there are too many Ministers of State.

Deputy Barry Andrews: That could have been said in ten seconds.

Deputy Michael Ring: I hope the Taoiseach will heed that message next week by doing the correct thing.

Deputy David Stanton: It is a question of perception.

Deputy Michael Ring: The people on the ground are sick and tired of the way we are behav- ing. Ministers of State have programme managers and assistants. They have six or seven secretaries in their offices doing constituency work. The Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, knows it is not right. We cannot afford it any longer. We need to do something about it. We should lead by example. We should send a message to the people of this country to the effect that we are serious about our business. We know there are problems out there. People are suffering. The Members of this House should agree to do our business in a different way. 779 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

Deputy Barry Andrews: Did Deputy Ring take the pay cut that was proposed by Deputy Kenny?

An Ceann Comhairle: I ask the Minister of State not to interrupt.

Deputy Barry Andrews: Why did he not take it?

Deputy Michael Ring: I will table a question for the Minister of State next week.

Deputy Barry Andrews: That is fine.

Deputy Michael Ring: I will find out exactly how much he is costing the taxpayer.

Deputy Barry Andrews: I will stand over it.

Deputy Michael Ring: I will find out about the telephones that were installed in his home, paid for the taxpayers of this country.

Deputy James Bannon: Hear, hear.

Deputy Michael Ring: I will check that out.

Deputy Barry Andrews: I have nothing to hide.

Deputy Michael Ring: I will have a parliamentary question ready next week. I will get all the information.

Deputy Barry Andrews: I can answer it now if the Deputy likes.

Deputy Michael Ring: I will find out exactly how much he is costing this State.

Deputy Barry Andrews: It will be grand.

Deputy Michael Ring: However much it is, I do not think he is worth it.

Deputy Barry Andrews: There is nothing——

Deputy Michael Ring: Every time I try to make a point, I am interrupted by a Minister or a Minister of State.

Deputy Barry Andrews: I was interrupted by Deputy Bannon.

Deputy Michael Ring: I did not interrupt the Minister of State.

Deputy Barry Andrews: I know. The Deputy did not interrupt me because he was not here.

Deputy Michael Ring: The people of this country are angry. They want change. The public wants us to run our business in a different way. Every day, the media sends out the message that we are closed for business, which is often the case. No matter how hard we work in our offices and constituencies, there is a perception that this House does not sit often enough. Every time we leave this House, we damage the body politic, we damage ourselves and we damage the country. We should remember that people died in this country so we could have our own parliament, have the vote and be able to run our own country. What has been going on for the last ten years has been a disgrace. Every time the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, ran into difficulty in his own party, he solved it by appointing another Minister of State. 780 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

The Green Party and Independent Deputies agree that this a reasonable motion. I hope they will do the right thing by supporting the Fine Gael motion when the House divides. It would be the right thing to do. I hope the Ceann Comhairle can take on board some of the points made by Deputy Stanton, who has been talking about Da´il reform for a long time. In a recent case, it was not right that a Deputy who came here at 9.30 p.m. or 9.45 p.m. had to listen to the Minister of State, Deputy Sargent, reading from a script that had been prepared for him by a civil servant.

Deputy Trevor Sargent: The script in question was entirely my own, if the Deputy does not mind.

Deputy Michael Ring: Will the Minister of State go away rather than driving me daft?

Deputy Trevor Sargent: The Deputy was not here.

Deputy Michael Ring: During some Adjournment debates, I would be able to read my own speech and that of the Minister of State. The same speeches are used again and again. They are sometimes rewritten by civil servants for the Minister of State in question. They get up and read the same speech again, and do not answer any questions we ask.

Deputy Trevor Sargent: It just shows Deputy Ring is hardly ever here.

Deputy David Stanton: And no questions.

Deputy Michael Ring: The Green Party will be eaten by Fianna Fa´il, which will have it as green vegetables in the pot. The Greens are on the way out too. They spoke well when they were over here and when they went over there they went with them.

Deputy Trevor Sargent: Deputy Ring has four jobs.

Deputy Michael Ring: Come with us. Do the honourable, decent thing. They said they agree with it. If they agree with it they should vote with us and not talk rubbish as they do on many matters. They should come with us and do the decent thing for the Da´il and for Ireland.

Deputy Trevor Sargent: Give the unemployed some of Deputy Ring’s jobs.

Amendment put.

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 77; Nı´l, 72.

Ta´

Ahern, Dermot. Collins, Niall. Ahern, Michael. Conlon, Margaret. Ahern, Noel. Connick, Seań. Andrews, Barry. Coughlan, Mary. Andrews, Chris. Cregan, John. Ardagh, Seań. Cuffe, Ciarań. Aylward, Bobby. Cullen, Martin. Blaney, Niall. Curran, John. Brady, A´ ine. Dempsey, Noel. Brady, Cyprian. Devins, Jimmy. Brady, Johnny. Dooley, Timmy. Browne, John. Fahey, Frank. Byrne, Thomas. Finneran, Michael. Calleary, Dara. Fitzpatrick, Michael. Carey, Pat. Fleming, Seań. 781 Oireachtas Reform: 25 March 2009. Motion (Resumed)

Ta´—continued

Flynn, Beverley. Mulcahy, Michael. Gogarty, Paul. Nolan, M.J. Gormley, John. O´ Cuı´v, E´ amon. Grealish, Noel. O´ Fearghaı´l, Seań. Harney, Mary. O’Brien, Darragh. Haughey, Seań. O’Connor, Charlie. Healy-Rae, Jackie. O’Dea, Willie. Hoctor, Maíre. O’Flynn, Noel. Kelleher, Billy. O’Hanlon, Rory. Kelly, Peter. O’Keeffe, Batt. Kenneally, Brendan. O’Rourke, Mary. Kennedy, Michael. O’Sullivan, Christy. Kirk, Seamus. Power, Peter. Kitt, Michael P. Power, Seań. Kitt, Tom. Roche, Dick. Lenihan, Brian. Ryan, Eamon. Lowry, Michael. Sargent, Trevor. McEllistrim, Thomas. Scanlon, Eamon. McGrath, Mattie. Smith, Brendan. McGrath, Michael. Treacy, Noel. McGuinness, John. Wallace, Mary. Mansergh, Martin. White, Mary Alexandra. Martin, Michea´l. Woods, Michael. Moynihan, Michael.

Nı´l

Allen, Bernard. McCormack, Pa´draic. Bannon, James. McEntee, Shane. Behan, Joe. McGinley, Dinny. Breen, Pat. McGrath, Finian. Broughan, Thomas P. McHugh, Joe. Bruton, Richard. McManus, Liz. Burke, Ulick. Mitchell, Olivia. Burton, Joan. Naughten, Denis. Byrne, Catherine. Neville, Dan. Carey, Joe. Noonan, Michael. O´ Caolaín, Caoimhghıń. Clune, Deirdre. ´ Connaughton, Paul. O Snodaigh, Aengus. O’Donnell, Kieran. Coonan, Noel J. O’Dowd, Fergus. Costello, Joe. O’Keeffe, Jim. Coveney, Simon. O’Mahony, John. Crawford, Seymour. O’Shea, Brian. Creed, Michael. O’Sullivan, Jan. Creighton, Lucinda. Penrose, Willie. D’Arcy, Michael. Perry, John. Deenihan, Jimmy. Quinn, Ruairı´. Doyle, Andrew. Rabbitte, Pat. Durkan, Bernard J. Reilly, James. Enright, Olwyn. Ring, Michael. Feighan, Frank. Shatter, Alan. Flanagan, Charles. Sheahan, Tom. Flanagan, Terence. Sheehan, P.J. Gilmore, Eamon. Sherlock, Seań. Hayes, Brian. Shortall, Ro´ isıń. Hayes, Tom. Stagg, Emmet. Higgins, Michael D. Stanton, David. Hogan, Phil. Timmins, Billy. Howlin, Brendan. Tuffy, Joanna. Kehoe, Paul. Upton, Mary. Kenny, Enda. Varadkar, Leo. Lynch, Ciarań. Wall, Jack. Lynch, Kathleen.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Pat Carey and Cregan; Nı´l, Deputies Kehoe and Stagg.

782 Tax 25 March 2009. Code

Amendment declared carried.

Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.

Adjournment Debate.

————

Tax Code. Deputy Joe McHugh: I am delighted to get the opportunity to raise this matter as it affects many of my constituents along the Border. It is also a national issue. Before I continue, I acknowledge our esteemed counterparts from Northern Ireland, the MLAs, who are in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery. This issue will also affect them in a positive way in the North rather than in a negative way here. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, has gone on public record as saying our economy has lost out on approximately \700 million since last October as a result of his fiscal instrument whereby he raised indirect taxation to 21.5% when the British Chancellor lowered indirect taxation to 15%. As a result of that fiscal instrument we have an anomaly in this country. We need to get the Government to acknowledge that this was a mistake and to do something about it, and the Government has the opportunity to do so in the upcoming budget on 7 April. A differential of 6.5% in an area where there has always been cross-Border activity, toing and froing, is having a seriously detrimental economic effect, not alone in Border areas, but across this country. I have anecdotal evidence of this. On a Thursday evening when I head up the M1 to Donegal, while it is great to see all these cars coming from Westmeath, Wexford and Dublin, they are going en bloc to Newry and Belfast. I welcome the fact that we have a movement of people, but the problem is that it is going one way. My counterparts up there will be delighted with this. They will acknowledge that it is swings and roundabouts and has also happened the other way. We need it to operate both ways. If we drain the Border counties of services and small businesses they will not come back. We have problems right across this country and in the capital city. It was interesting to note our Northern colleagues acknowledging that there was little congestion in Dublin today. Per- haps that can be explained by the fact that many shoppers are heading to the North rather than into Dublin. From a sociological perspective, I welcome the movement of people across the Border, as they no longer recognise it as an obstacle, which it was historically. However, the Government has an opportunity in the upcoming budget to use its imagination. If the Minister for Finance is unable to decrease the VAT rate from 21.5%, will he consider a reduction in the higher rate of VAT on baby products, construction materials and plant machinery? He should use a little imagination and creativity because businesses are on their knees. I walked up and down the street in Letterkenny in my constituency last Tuesday and businesses were crying out for an imaginative, creative response to the problems we face. Germany and other states have introduced tax cuts rather than tax increases. Tax increases will not get us out of the recession and businesses will go to the wall. The Minister of State was spokesperson on finance for Fianna Fa´il in the previous Seanad. Will he show some creativity together with the Minister for Finance? People are worried about increases in excise duties on cigarettes and petrol and diesel because this will result in one-way traffic to Northern Ireland. A symbiotic relationship must be established where synergies could be created in order that both governments work together. We will celebrate the 11th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement shortly. 783 Tax 25 March 2009. Code

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Martin Mansergh): I am all in favour of two-way traffic. I would like to address the question of our engagement with Northern Ireland and the UK. The Minister for Finance engages on a regular basis with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his Northern Ireland counterpart in respect of European and North- South bilateral issues. Taxation strategies, in general, reflect the political choices made by governments towards meeting the specific needs and requirements of countries. In this regard, Ireland has focused on achieving a low taxation economy, especially in the area of direct taxation, both income and corporation taxes, which has delivered significant advantages in competitiveness. In ensuring a relatively low level of direct taxation on income, we have, therefore, had marginally higher indirect taxation. Recent developments have led to widening of the differential arising from indirect taxation as a result of a reduction in the UK VAT rate. However, the UK Government has signalled that this reduction is a temporary measure to be reversed at the end of 2009. The Comprehensive Study on the All-Island Economy, to which the Deputy refers, sets out a strong rationale for beneficial all-island economic activity. The study, which was published in 2006, highlights the “market widening effect” of a larger market on the island of Ireland, within which previously unexplored business opportunities can be exploited. It is an inevitable feature that where there are two jurisdictions, with two different currencies and two different tax regimes, there will be distortions at different times in the marketplace. The balance in trade has switched at various times to different sides of the Border, giving rise to swings and roundabouts for both sides in terms of who benefits or loses in the local economies and sub-regions over time. The increase in cross-Border trade in recent months was to be expected, particularly given the size of recent exchange rate movements. While this movement of retail activity to the North has implications for the Government’s tax revenue — the Minister gave a specific figure in an earlier debate — it is consistent with the logic of an increasingly all-island economy in which competition and customer mobility are greater than ever before. In a time of increased financial turbulence in the wider markets, there may also be opportunities for companies, North and South, to expand their market-share on an all-island basis and develop stronger customer relations and become more responsive to customers. They will also have to pay closer attention to managing costs. The current economic difficulties put into clearer focus the need for all of us to work as policy makers to see how we can collaborate more effectively to address the challenges and get ready to make the most of the opportunities when they arise, as they inevitably will. Our economies face similar challenges in the context of the world economic downturn and it is clear that we both need to position ourselves to take advantage of the upturn when it emerges. With respect to divergences in indirect taxation, I have noted our overall taxation policy of lower direct taxation and resulting relatively higher indirect taxation. Our VAT and excise duty policies reflect this overall approach. With regard to VAT arrangements, the temporary nature of the cut in the UK’s standard VAT rate must be noted, as must the offsetting arrangements announced simultaneously in the area of excise duties. In cutting its standard rate from 17.5% to 15% from 1 December 2008, the UK signalled that this measure will be reversed by the end of 2009. With regard to excise duties, the UK announced a simultaneous increase in excise duty on alcohol, cigarettes, petrol and diesel to offset the 2.5% reduction in VAT on these items. Consequently, there was no reduction in the price of these products in Northern Ireland as a result of the reduction in the UK VAT rate. It must be recognised that the VAT rate is only one factor in the price differential north and south of the Border. I mentioned the significant currency movements and the considerable 784 Company 25 March 2009. Closure weakening of sterling has had a more significant impact on relative prices than VAT changes. For example, sterling has weakened by 36% since early August 2007 and by approximately 18% since early October 2008. Past experience has shown that fluctuations in the relative exchange rates can have a direct effect in terms of the level and balance of cross-Border trade with Northern Ireland. The Government’s decision to increase the standard VAT rate by 0.5% was part of a general package of revenue raising measures to fund key public services. We are borrowing to fund day-to-day public services, which is unsustainable, as future generations will be required to pay higher taxes unless we correct our public finances. The Minister recently published a report, Implications of Cross Border Shopping for the Irish Exchequer, prepared by the Office of the Revenue Commissioners and the CSO. In addition to the rapid depreciation of sterling against the euro, the report notes that the other main causes of price differentials between goods in Northern Ireland and the Republic are operating costs, profit margin mark-up and taxes. While changes in the standard VAT rates have widened some price differentials, their impact remains small compared to the impact of currency movements. In broader terms, our general tendency towards somewhat higher indirect taxation also reflects other policy objectives. For example, in the case of alcohol and tobacco products, it has been a long-standing policy for sound health and social reasons to apply higher excise rates to such products. Our excise rates on these products are, therefore, higher than those in the UK and most other EU member states. I refer to the question of indirect taxation and EU competition law. The code of conduct for business taxation is a political agreement designed to curb harmful competition in business taxation. It focuses on national tax measures, which have a significant effect on the location of business within the Community and which provide for a significantly lower effective rate than the rate generally applying in the member state in question. The code was specifically designed to detect only measures that unduly affect the location of business activity in the Community. It focuses on measures, which are targeted merely at non-residents and which seek to provide them with a more favourable tax treatment than is generally available in the member state concerned. In the circumstances, it is apparent that the indirect taxation divergence in question would not come under the remit of the code of conduct. With regard to EU competition law and the EU VAT directive, the VAT directive sets out the rules governing the structure and operation of the VAT system by member states. In this regard, a degree of flexibility is afforded to them regarding decisions on the choice of VAT rates within the boundaries set out by the VAT directive. For example, they may set their standard VAT rate within the range 15% to 25%. In addition, they may operate reduced rates between 5% and 15% and they may retain zero rates, which were in operation on 1 January 1991. The flexibility available under the VAT directive is important in allowing member states to develop VAT arrangements appropriate to their individual needs. The resulting differentials in VAT rates between neighbouring member states are, therefore, not unusual across the Euro- pean Union.

Company Closure. Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: I wish to share time with Deputy Shortall. The Minister for Transport must come clean on when his Department was informed that SR Technics planned to pull out of its Dublin Airport operation. On the basis of meetings held between the Oireachtas transport committee, the SR Technics workforce and local management and the Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, in recent days, it is clear the Department of Transport was aware that SR Technics was leaving Dublin from early November 2008. 785 Company 25 March 2009. Closure

[Deputy Thomas P. Broughan.]

At that time the company’s corporate management approached the DAA to negotiate the sale back to the authority of the leases on the six hangars and 34 acres of the SRT facility at Dublin Airport. The lease on hangars 1 to 5 was to run to 2059 and the lease on the large hangar 6 was to conclude in 2060. The authority refused to disclose to the Oireachtas transport committee the value of buying back the leases, citing a confidentiality contract with the company. DAA management, however, rightly decided to protect the ownership of key national assets and carried out its duty to inform the Department of the proposed return of the leases and the departure of SRT with the loss of almost 1,200 jobs. Earlier, on the Order of Business, I asked the Taoiseach when the Minister for Transport reported to him and the Cabinet that SR Technics was leaving. I also asked him what measures were taken almost five months ago to protect the 1,200 jobs and make arrangements, if necessary, to request the IDA to prepare to replace the company with a successor 9 o’clock aviation engineering company. The Taoiseach failed to respond but it is now obvious the Minister for Transport has serious questions to answer on this matter. The DAA also told me and my colleague Senator Brendan Ryan, and other colleagues from Fianna Fa´il and Fine Gael, last week that the State enterprise would not be found wanting in “supporting any measures to continue the SRT operation by any interested party”. While this view is welcome the Minister should comment on some issues connected with the leases. Is it the case, for example, that Ryanair and Aer Lingus have different types of liens or restrictions on at least two of the hangars concerned, given their line maintenance operations in the airport? The Departments of Transport and Enterprise, Trade and Employment could and should have addressed the appalling redundancy and pension terms now facing SR Technics workers much earlier, especially if the Minister for Transport knew of SR Technics’ intentions more than five months ago. Why did the Minister for Transport and the Government not ensure that all funding released from the DAA, confidentiality clause or not, be included in redundancies and pension funds? The ball is in the court of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the Taoiseach, and the Minister for Transport. These Ministers must come into the Da´il and explain where exactly is the IDA’s evaluation of the expressions of interest and what stage they have reached in moves to protect the entitlements of the SR Technics workforce, their jobs, and if necessary, to install a successor business.

Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall: I appreciate Deputy Broughan sharing time with me. It is regrettable that the Minister for Transport chose to slip out of this Chamber after the vote a few minutes ago and was not prepared to stay and respond to this debate. I welcome the presence of the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Noel Ahern, tonight. The 1,100 workers in SR Technics were devastated when they were told last month that they were to lose their livelihoods. The very least they deserve from the Minister for Transport is respect, basic information and answers to their questions. Workers have posed four straight questions to the Minister and they deserve straight answers:

When were you, as Minister for Transport, made aware of the fact that the D.A.A. management were in negotiation with SR Technics Group Management for the return of the leases on the Hangars at Dublin Airport?

Is the D.A.A. complicit in the closure of SR Technics to allow for the future development of Dublin Airport?

786 Company 25 March 2009. Closure

As 25% stakeholder in Aer Lingus are you aware of any part Senior Management of that company played in assisting this closure?

How is the D.A.A. paying Mubadala Development Company (SR Technics AG) for the leases of the hangars at Dublin Airport?

Workers are entitled to know the answers to those questions and what, if anything, the Govern- ment is prepared to do to save this company. The Minister for Finance, and three Ministers of State, Deputies Noel Ahern, Pat Carey and Trevor Sargent all represent the north side of Dublin yet nothing is being done to save this viable company. Some 1,100 jobs are going down the Swanee and it seems no action is being taken to save them. What actions will the Ministers for Transport and Enterprise, Trade and Employment take to ensure that the SR Technics workers get a fair and just severance package? What will they do about the shortfall in the SR Technics pension fund? In addition, 300 SR Technics staff are part of the Irish Airlines superannuation fund. As a stakeholder in Aer Lingus and owner of the DAA the Government is a significant contributor to this scheme which is also underfunded. What will the Minister do to ensure that SR Technics honours its responsibilities to both pension funds? How can the Minister for Transport and his Cabinet colleagues stand idly by while the mega-rich Mubadala Investment Company abdicates its responsibility to its Irish workforce? It is the job of Government to protect Irish jobs and defend the rights of Irish workers. The Minister has done neither. It is time for action. We cannot afford the cost to the economy, and particularly to the north side of Dublin, of doing nothing. SR Technics workers deserve much better than this.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Noel Ahern): The Deputies asked a lot of extra questions to which I might not have the answers. In mid-January the DAA informed the Department that as part of preparations for global restructuring SR Technics had agreed to sell certain hangars back to the DAA——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: The Minister of State is misleading this House.

Deputy Noel Ahern: Can the Deputy let me give my answer?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Kathleen Lynch): The Deputy must listen to the Minister of State. There are ways to deal with that later on. Will the Minister of State continue please?

Deputy Noel Ahern: I had better start again. In mid-January the DAA informed the Department that as part of preparations for global restructuring SR Technics had agreed to sell certain hangars back to the DAA and had signed a letter of intent to that effect. The Minister was informed of these developments at the time. The Department and the Minister had been made aware by the DAA in mid-November of contacts between SR Technics and the DAA about possible restructuring of SR Technics and as a consequence the possible return of hangar leases. The DAA advised that as it had signed a strict confidentiality agreement with SR Technics, it was therefore precluded from providing the Department with details of the discussions at that stage. Subsequently, in late December, the DAA advised the Department that these discussions were progressing but were still subject to a strict confidentiality agreement and that any restructuring of SR Technics could have a significant impact on employment in the Dublin operation. 787 Company 25 March 2009. Closure

[Deputy Noel Ahern.]

Once it became clear in November 2007 that the Aer Lingus maintenance contracts were being put out to tender, the Department of Transport alerted the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to the potential implications for employment in the event that SR Technics was not successful in the tender competition. Since then there has been ongoing contact with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, including contact between Ministers, in the context of the threat to jobs in the company. The Department and the DAA——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: The Minister of State is washing his hands of it.

Deputy Noel Ahern: The Deputy should hold on a second. I listened to him.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: There are 1,200 people involved.

Deputy Noel Ahern: The Department and the DAA have at all times been sensitive to the employment implications of the SR Technics closure.

Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall: What does that mean? This is a viable company.

Deputy Noel Ahern: I am trying to answer some of the Deputy’s questions.

Acting Chairman: The Deputies must allow the Minister of State to continue.

Deputy Noel Ahern: I can also confirm that the IDA and Enterprise Ireland——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: This is an incredible speech. This is misleading the House.

Acting Chairman: I have to ask the Deputy to resume his seat. That can be dealt with in another way, not by confronting the Minister of State at this point.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: He is not giving us the facts.

Acting Chairman: The Deputy must allow the Minister of State continue.

Deputy Noel Ahern: I am giving the exact facts, if the Deputies would only have the patience to listen.

Acting Chairman: The Minister of State should just continue with his speech.

Deputy Noel Ahern: I can also confirm that the IDA and Enterprise Ireland are working intensively to ensure that any viable proposals for aviation-related projects, to retain as many jobs as possible in aircraft maintenance, are given serious consideration. The DAA will also give serious consideration to any commercial proposal put to it as regards access to hangars for aircraft maintenance operations. The Minister for Transport has instructed the Department to maintain contact with the Department of Enterprise Trade and Employ- ment, the IDA and Enterprise Ireland to ensure that any viable proposals can be facilitated. We are all from the north side and we know the situation. SR Technics has been under pressure——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: The Minister of State knew that before we did. 788 RAPID 25 March 2009. Programmes

Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall: The Government could have done something about it.

Deputy Noel Ahern: It has been under pressure since 2007. We all know that. Arguing about who knew what when and what was said when over recent months is not where it is at. It is necessary to work and establish whether viable proposals come forward with which we can work and help to try to save as many jobs as possible.

Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall: The Government had the time and did nothing about it.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: The Government did nothing.

Deputy Noel Ahern: That is where it is at. The Deputies are allowing themselves to go down a cul-de-sac. Let us focus and concentrate on what it is all about.

Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall: What, if anything, did the Government do to save the company?

Deputy Noel Ahern: Right now that involves trying to work with any outfit that comes forward to see how many of the jobs can be saved.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: This is grotesque incompetence.

RAPID Programmes. Deputy Tom Hayes: I am grateful to the Ceann Comhairle for giving me the opportunity to raise this issue which is important for my constituents in Tipperary town and south Tipperary. The project for the youth hostel, or the hostel as we know it in Tipperary town, has been ongoing for some time. A commitment was given by the HSE, through RAPID, that money would be made available. The commitment promised funding of \40,000 for a lift in that complex. Some weeks ago, a notification was given to the people involved in this project that the \40,000 would not be made available. This is a gross waste of taxpayers’ and community money and of time for everybody involved in this project. Considerable investment was put into that project but a letter has now arrived from the Department stating that \40,000 on its own cannot be given to this project which could have a significant impact in our locality with regard to tourism and young people who might come to the area. The same letter was sent to the youth and community project in the main street in Tipperary town. This town has recently suffered a great amount of unwanted publicity that it could have done without. The Government sent a letter, or allowed a letter to be sent, again stating that \40,000 has been cut back. That decision involves two projects in the same town where such services are badly needed for our young people and others in the community. In recent weeks I have seen the great work that has gone into these two projects and I ask if there is any way these two grants might be replaced. Leaving them aside will mean the projects cannot go ahead. I implore the Minister of State to use his good offices to change that. The same situation exists at the other end of the constituency, in Carrick-on-Suir and Clonmel. I did not mention those towns when I submitted the item for the Adjournment. Project work was being carried out and the Department suddenly decided to put it on hold for some weeks. This is unfair, a gross waste of taxpayers’ money and is a bad way for any Govern- ment to do business. The Minister of State knows Tipperary town as well as I do. I hope he will be able to deliver a better answer than the one contained in the letter. I saw the faces of the people who explained the situation to me after getting this letter. They have given years of 789 RAPID 25 March 2009. Programmes

[Deputy Tom Hayes.] planning and months of hard work to those projects, particularly those in Tipperary town. It is unfair and unjust. I ask the Minister of State to use his good offices in the next few weeks to restore those grants to the people involved in a very good and worthwhile community project.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Noel Ahern): I am taking this Adjournment matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney. It provides the opportunity to outline the background to the current situation and the action taken by the HSE. The RAPID programme aims to ensure that priority attention is given to tackling the spatial concentration of poverty and social exclusion within 46 designated RAPID areas nationally. The preparation and assessment of RAPID projects commenced in summer 2008, following applications for funding to enhance and establish services for older people in relevant geographic areas. These applications were assessed and finalised in late 2008. RAPID is a joint initiative, funded on a 50-50 basis between the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and the Health Service Executive. The HSE indicates that the total cost of the scheme is \4.6 million. Although the Department of Community Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, with the HSE and Pobal, was involved in the assessment of projects sent forward for consideration, the HSE, as the lead agency, is responsible for the contractual arrangements involved in each project. The individual projects claim funding from the HSE, and the 50% funding from the Department of Community Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is subsequently claimed and reimbursed to the HSE. This round of the RAPID programme was launched by the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Eamon O´ Cuı´v, last October, with further details announced on 23 December. It was approved also by the HSE. On receipt of approval, the HSE put in place an extensive monitoring process in conjunction with the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, to enable the executive to report accurately to the national monitoring committee. The Government recently announced its intention to examine all current and capital expenditure as part of its decision to introduce further measures to stabilise the public finances. Projects were informed of this decision by HSE representatives on 13 February, 2009. The RAPID programme was therefore submitted for re-approval, through the HSE, to the Department of Finance. All decisions on funding for the national development plan will be taken in the course of these deliberations and will be announced in coming weeks. A number of projects at HSE level have expended moneys and these must be considered in the overall context of the current review. They include two of the three projects which were announced for Tipperary town, namely, a lift installation in the community and youth centre, Bank Place, Tipperary, which is to receive \40,000, and a community safety van for Muintir na Tı´re and community services, which is to receive \20,000. The third project in Tipperary town is also for the installation of a lift for the elderly in the new four-storey community hostel, Saol Nua, at a cost of \40,000. The Department of Health and Children is closely monitoring the position with regard to RAPID projects relevant to the health service and will continue to liaise closely with the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, and the HSE on individual cases and on the programme overall. As the Deputy knows, the Department of Finance has put a stop to several projects at this time. We all hope that various programmes in Departments will see the light of day again very 790 REPS 25 March 2009. Payments shortly but I cannot give the Deputy any guarantees. We shall see how events will move forward during the next few weeks.

Deputy Tom Hayes: I thank the Minister of State.

REPS Payments. Deputy Dara Calleary: I wish to share my time with Deputy Michael Ring and I ask the Acting Chairman to let me know when I am half way through the time. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for giving us the opportunity to raise this issue tonight. I am conscious that it was raised by Deputy Deenihan last night with the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith, and I noted his response. There has been considerable progress in the payment of REPS claims since 27 January with 5,500 claims paid out during that time. However, only 212 have been paid to farmers in County Mayo, from a possible total of 1,353 applicants. The REPS cheque and the scheme itself are extremely important to farming and agriculture in the county and nobody doubts its success to date, nor what it has achieved. However, in 2008 when farming incomes fell by 12.8% and are due to fall by more this year, that cheque is incredibly important and many expenditure commitments are made on its back. The difficulty now for farmers in County Mayo is that they are completely in the dark as to when they can expect payment, if they can expect it, and whether their plans have been accepted. There seems to be no way for Deputies to find information and provide answers for them. The local Department staff based in County Mayo have been put under considerable and unfair pressure in the past few weeks as they try to deal with this issue and get answers from other Departments and from sections of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in other parts of the country. There does not appear to be a system of responding quickly to queries. I respectfully suggest that members of staff in the Minister of State’s Department who are involved in several on-farm inspections be moved into the REPS section to address this backlog. I ask that a specific taskforce or examination be set up within the Department to examine the delays, particularly those in County Mayo. Following a meeting attended by Deputy Ring and me last week with the IFA, the Depart- ment recognised that County Mayo has a specific problem and presents specific challenges. We must discover why that is the case and what action the Department is taking to deal with it. Tomorrow there is to be a meeting between the IFA and officials from the REPS section of the Department concerning the scheme generally. The chairman of Mayo IFA, Mr. Mark Galvin, is to attend that meeting and he will also raise the issue. The Minister must consider the human element of the matter. It is all very well to talk about computer programmes, EU Commission investigations and so forth. These are obviously part of the problem but the human element must be considered. This is a time when many REPS applicants have had their farm waste management grants delayed, their dairy cheques reduced, or we have cut their disadvantage payment because of the current expenditure restrictions. I ask the Minister of State and the Department to consider the impact and to make a specific effort in the coming days to replicate what has been achieved nationally in terms of dealing with the REPS 4 backlog in the past four weeks and apply it to County Mayo. In the context of the coming decisions and before 7 April, I ask that on-farm schemes be left untouched because they were hammered in the budget in October, particularly those applicable to the west. Farmers have already played their part in the national recovery. 791 REPS 25 March 2009. Payments

Deputy Michael Ring: I thank Deputy Calleary for allowing me two minutes of his time. He and I attended a meeting recently in Castlebar and he is quite correct that there was much anger there from farmers about the REPS 4 scheme. As Deputy Calleary said, 1,353 farmers from Mayo are in that scheme and 212 have been paid to date. This is a very important scheme for the west. REPS is a good scheme and it has worked. We now have REPS 4. We should know by now all the difficulties and all the problems from the three previous schemes. We are encouraging farmers and asking them to be environmentally friendly and they have taken well to the scheme. Many of the people have paid their planners and many are under financial pressure and waiting for their cheques. Like Deputy Calleary I do not understand what is the problem. The local offices will say they have the plan and in some cases the plan has been sent on for payment. For some reason they are sent back again and their area aid is checked. It looks like a stalling tactic to me because the money is not there and this would be wrong because these farmers have entered into the scheme in good faith. They have been good farmers and have been good for the environment and the scheme has been excellent. I concur with Deputy Calleary. The recent budget and the recent announcement about farming was anti-west. There is no doubt but the farmers in the west paid a bigger price than farmers over rest of the country. I hope they have now paid their price and in the forthcoming budget they will be protected. We want to see these farmers and their plans dealt with immediately and that payment made to these farmers immediately. I am asking the Minister of State to intervene personally with his Department to try and get these payments out and to resolve whatever problems exist. Whether it is a staff problem or a problem with the scheme itself, the Minister of State should deal with it. I am asking him to intervene tomorrow to try and get something done. As Deputy Calleary said, the IFA will be raising this issue tomorrow because they have got the blast from the farmers just as we have. All we want is for this scheme to continue and to work and for farmers to be paid.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Trevor Sargent): Ar dtu´ s, ba mhaith liom bhıóchas a gabhaíl leis an Teachta Calleary agus an Teachta Ring as an ceist tabhachtact seo a ardu´ ar son mhuintir Mhaigh Eo. REPS has been one of the most successful schemes operated by my Department since it was launched in 1994. It has brought more than \2 billion in payments to Irish farmers. Last year, farmers in REPS received over \313 million in payments. The numbers in the scheme, including applicants for REPS 4 who are being processed at present, stand at over 60,000. Farmers in Mayo have received more than \311 million in REPS since 1994, and their payments in 2008 came to \31.7 million. I know a number of these farmers around Ballyhaunis, Ballinrobe, Achill, Westport, Erris and Caisleań an Bharraigh. REPS has always been about much more than money, as Deputy Ring stated. It has delivered benefits to the environment, water quality, biodiversity and the landscape. Farmers have welcomed the opportunity it gave them to farm in a more environmentally sensitive way and to preserve habitats and landscape features that might otherwise have fallen victim to intensification. In the past two years, since the nitrates derogation allowed us to open the scheme to the highly-stocked dairy sector, farmers who would not have considered REPS before are now showing interest and indeed in many cases have made their applications. REPS is a complex scheme. Currently, a participant in REPS must include all of his or her land in the scheme and must commit to 11 basic measures and at least two biodiversity options. If Natura land is involved there may be other obligations. This set of undertakings, negotiated with the Euro- pean Commission, is the basis for payment. 792 REPS 25 March 2009. Payments

In recent years, the European Commission and the Court of Auditors have taken an increasingly critical approach in their scrutiny of farm payment schemes, not just in Ireland but in other member states. Agri-environment measures like REPS are being very closely audited since a negative report by the Court of Auditors in 2006, which found that huge amounts of EU money were being spent on schemes whose outcomes were difficult or even impossible to measure. We had two audit visits on REPS last year; one by the Court of Auditors and one by the European Commission. Both raised very serious questions about our procedures for examining applications for REPS. It was evident that we had to make fundamental changes in the way we dealt with applications. It became necessary, therefore, for the Department to scrutinise every REPS application and plan in the greatest detail. We had to bring in an entirely new system last year for processing REPS 4 applications. I am well aware that this has meant that farmers have had to wait much longer than expected for their first REPS 4 payments. Indeed, I know that up to half of those who applied in 2008 are still waiting. I would not suggest for one moment that this is a satisfactory situation. It is one that we hope not to find ourselves in again. There are a number of reasons why the processing of applications has taken so long. The first thing we had to do was develop a computer system for screening plans that had been prepared on eREPS, the electronic planning system approved and funded by the Department. There are no safe short cuts in developing computer systems and it took several months to get this one to an acceptable level. Then the non-eREPS plans had to be screened manually, at a time when the staff who had to do this work were also heavily involved in the farm waste management scheme. Finally, all the plans had to be cross-checked against the LPIS system and checked to confirm that they included the necessary biodiversity options. These last two checks were computerised as well. At that point, which we reached at the end of January, we were finally able to start making payments on plans about which none of the checks had raised queries. However, fewer than 1,400 plans out of more than 12,000 came through that initial set of screening checks with no queries. The remainder had to be checked manually. Nearly 5,000 of these files have since been processed. In most of those the queries have been fully resolved, though a number have had small reductions applied to the payments because of some deficiency in the plan. Department staff are making every effort to get the remaining cases processed as soon as possible. There are some plans that are actually ineligible and it is important for the farmers in these cases that a valid application is with the Department by 15 May. Our staff are doing all they can to identify these problem cases but they cannot do everything. The 2009 applications are already arriving in big numbers. Last year, over 7,000 applications came in between 1 April and 15 May. It is too much to expect that Department staff can identify every application with a problem in time for the planner to fix it by 15 May. But nothing in any plan can be put right after that date. That possibility simply does not exist under the regulations we now have to live with. That is why every planner needs to be satisfied that every plan he or she prepares is fully in keeping with the terms and conditions of REPS and the obligations of cross-compliance. There are particular factors operating in County Mayo which are making the processing of applications somewhat slower than in other counties. There is a large amount of designated Natura land in the county and Natura land qualifies for a higher rate of payment in REPS. Reconciling the Natura areas shown in many REPS plans with the Department’s land parcel 793 The 25 March 2009. Adjournment

[Deputy Trevor Sargent.] identification system is not proving straightforward. There is no reason to believe that payments to the farmers concerned will be reduced because of this issue, but to meet our audit requirements it has to be resolved in each case. Department staff are in the process of informing farmers about the situation so that they can get their planners to make any necessary changes to the plans, and this will continue in the coming weeks. I hope this will be recognised and that it will make a difference that my Department has assigned extra staff to the Mayo offices to help with the exercise. Farmers have been very patient in waiting for their REPS payments this year, especially at a time when cash flow is critical to so many people. I ask for their continued patience while the remaining applications are processed and I ask them to keep their faith in REPS. While it must continue to evolve, to meet changing priorities and to reflect changing circumstances, I am confident that agri- environment will be an important part of EU rural development policy for years to come.

The Da´il adjourned at 9.30 p.m. until 10.30 p.m. on Thursday, 26 March 2009.

794 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Written Answers.

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The following are questions tabled by Members for written response and the ministerial replies as received on the day from the Departments [unrevised].

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Questions Nos. 1 to 7, inclusive, answered orally.

Questions Nos. 8 to 35, inclusive resubmitted.

Questions Nos. 36 to 45, inclusive, answered orally.

Teachers’ Remuneration. 46. Deputy Mary Upton asked the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamen- tary Question No. 28 of 26 February 2009, when the contract for his Department’s new payroll system was first drafted; the length of time it took to draft this contract; the cost of the contract to date; the estimated final cost for the contract when the payroll system becomes operational in September 2009; the projected savings in administrative overheads that the taxpayer can expect to make from the implementation of this new system; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12234/09]

68. Deputy Mary Upton asked the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamen- tary Question No. 28 of 26 February 2009, the reason the new payroll system in his Department is not due to begin operating until September 2009; the categories of teaching and non-teaching staff who will benefit from the use of the new payroll system; if this will include part-time, full- time and substitute teachers, caretakers, administration staff and secretarial staff; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12232/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I propose to take Questions Nos. 46 and 68 together. My Department is responsible for the operation of the largest and probably the most complex payrolls in the country. There are approximately 84,000 personnel being paid on a fortnightly basis on these payrolls. These include teachers and special needs assistants employed in primary, secondary and Community/Comprehensive schools. The caretakers and clerical officers employed under the 1979 scheme and retired teaching and non-teaching staff are also paid. In the case of primary schools all full-time, fixed term and substitute teachers are now paid through my Department’s payroll system. All categories of teachers employed in Secondary and 795 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] Community schools including those referred to by the Deputy such as part-time and substitute are now paid on my Department’s payrolls. The integration of part-time and substitute staff into the payroll systems has resulted in reduced administration for schools. Tax, PRSI and other statutory deductions are now dealt with in my Department and schools are no longer responsible for payroll administration work such as revenue returns. The introduction of an on line claims system which enables schools to input claims for payment of the part-time and substitute teachers has also created efficiencies both in my Department and at school level. The next stage in the development of the Department payrolls is to incorporate the part- time resource primary teachers that are currently paid by the management authorities of schools onto the system. My Department has not contracted for a new payroll system for incorporating those part-time resource teachers and the development work associated with this payroll is being undertaken by officials in my Department. These teachers will be paid on the payroll from the 1st September this year and the arrears are due to be paid by November. It is projected that an additional 1,000 teachers will be added to the payroll systems. The records of service for these teachers are currently being recorded on the Department’s personnel system. There are no plans to expand the payroll systems to pay caretakers and clerical officers currently paid by the school management authorities. The expansion of the payroll system in recent years has been undertaken as part of the normal work of my Payroll and Information Technology sections without additional staffing resources other than temporary staff for once-off data entry.

Special Educational Needs. 47. Deputy Kathleen Lynch asked the Minister for Education and Science if he will reverse his decision to suppress classes for children with mild learning disabilities in a school (details supplied) in Dublin 2 in view of the fact that this school is a DEIS one band school which is exempted from cutbacks in education; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12245/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I would like to reassure the Deputy that there will be no pupil with a special educational need who will be without access to a special needs teacher as a result of the decision to apply the normal rules which govern the appointment and retention of teachers of special classes for pupils with a mild general learning disability (MGLD). Teacher allocations to schools typically increase or decrease depending on pupil enrolment. In the case of classes for MGLD the normal pupil teacher ratio that applies is 11:1. My Depart- ment however permits schools to retain a teaching post where it has a minimum of 9 pupils in the class. In the case of the school referred to by the Deputy, the school confirmed that they have 8 pupils in the MGLD class, therefore the school no longer qualifies to retain the class. These special classes which are to close pre-date the 2005 General Allocation Model of allocating additional teacher support to schools to enable them to meet the needs of pupils with MGLD as well as a number of other high incidence disabilities. All primary schools were allocated additional teaching resources under the General Allo- cation Model to enable them support pupils with high incidence special educational needs including MGLD. In the case of the school referred to by the Deputy, the school has shared access to a learning support/resource teacher. When the General Allocation Model was intro- 796 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers duced, schools with additional teachers in classes for MGLD were allowed to retain the teachers for these classes. All of the other primary schools in the country who do not have classes for children with MGLD cater for these pupils from within the General Allocation Model. Pupils with a MGLD have, and will continue to have access to additional teaching resources to support their education. The Deputy will be aware that DEIS (Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools), the action plan for educational inclusion, provides for a standardised system for identifying levels of disadvantage and an integrated School Support Programme (SSP). DEIS brings together and builds upon a number of existing interventions in schools with concentrated levels of disadvantage. In line with my focus on retaining resources in the most disadvantaged areas, it is important to note that following Budget 2009 DEIS supports in DEIS schools are not being affected. The school referred to by the Deputy was identified for inclusion in Urban Band 1 of DEIS and for the duration of the programme it will benefit from the following measures:

(a) Allocation of an Administrative Principal;

(b) The services of a shared Home School Community Liaison Co-ordinator;

(d) Additional capitation based on level of disadvantage and grant aid for school books.

Indeed without counting the teacher to be removed in September there is still a total of 9 teaching staff, two on a shared basis, assigned to this school. There are also two Special Needs Assistants (wte). The enrolment as at September 2008 was 84 pupils. The school has written to my Department making a case for the retention of the teacher and this is currently under consideration. I would like to take the opportunity to emphasise that priority will continue to be given to making provision for pupils with special educational needs within available resources.

School Staffing. 48. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the degree to which he and his Department officials have had discussions with the authorities of the various primary and post-primary schools throughout the country regarding the implementation of the 2009 Budgetary cuts with particular reference to the need to minimise the negative impact on pupil-teacher ratios and the quality, scale and standard of education available to all pupils including those with special needs is not affected to the extent of damaging the future prospects of the children; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12012/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): There has been ongoing engagement and discussion with the relevant education partners involving me and/or my senior officials concerning general education matters and specific budgetary matters, since the budget announcements last October. To be clear there is no doubt that the budget measures concerning staffing will have an impact. There is simply no easy way to control or reduce public expenditure. At the level of individual schools the changes in relation to the allocation of teaching posts will impact in different ways depending on whether enrolment is rising or declining and the 797 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] degree to which any one school has more teachers than it is entitled to under the allocation processes. Across the school system generally there will inevitably be an impact on class sizes and at post-primary level the changes will impact on the capacity of individual schools to offer as wide a range of subject choices as heretofore in future years. My Department will through the normal processing of examining applications for curricular concessions endeavour to ensure continuity of provision for those already preparing for the certificate examinations. The changes at second level are therefore more likely to impact on the range of subjects that schools will be able to offer to those starting the Junior or Leaving Certificate programmes next September. Specifically in relation to special needs I would like to emphasise that the budget provided for a continuation of the allocation of resource teachers based on the recommendations of the National Council for Special Education. I have been anxious to ensure that the measures are implemented in a transparent and fair manner. My Department has written to the primary schools that are projected to have a net loss or gain in classroom teaching posts in September, 2009. As part of my efforts to ensure that relevant information is openly available to the public detailed information on the opening position for primary schools is now published on my Department’s website. Initial allocation letters have also issued to Post Primary Schools and Vocational Educational Committees. All the above allocations, primary and post-primary are provisional at this stage and reflect the initial allocation position. The final position for any one school will depend on a number of other factors such as the allocation of support teachers, additional posts for schools that are developing rapidly and posts allocated as a result of the appeals processes. The final staffing position for all schools will ultimately not be known until the Autumn. At that stage the allocation process will be fully completed for mainstream classroom teachers and any appeals to the Staffing Appeals Boards will have been considered. The appellate process is particularly relevant at post-primary level where any specific curricular needs of the school concerned are considered. Also at post-primary there is no effective system wide redeployment scheme at present and this can mean that schools may end up retain teachers, though over quota. While teacher numbers are important numerous influential reports have highlighted the fact that teacher quality is the single most important factor — far and above anything else — in improving educational outcomes for children. Ensuring high quality teaching and learning is a challenge and dealing with factors that inhibit it represent a challenge for the Government, the Department, school management and indeed teacher unions. The teaching profession in Ireland is highly regarded and well paid by international standards. It continues to attract from the top quartile of students which is a key ingredient to the provision of quality education.

Third Level Fees. 49. Deputy Sea´n Sherlock asked the Minister for Education and Science if his Department is considering a capital assets test for means test purposes with regard to the reintroduction of third level college fees; the reasons for the extended delay within his Department in finalising amendments for the Student Support Bill in view of the fact that it passed second stage nearly nine months ago; if the amendments will change, in any significant way, the thrust of the Bill or its detailed provisions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12226/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): As the Deputy is aware, I am currently finalising a review of policy options relating to the introduction of a form of student contribution for third level fees. There are many complex and competing considerations including costs, affordability and means testing arrangements that will fall to be taken into account 798 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers by the Government in considering the available options. It is my intention to bring proposals in this regard to Government in the near future. In relation to the Student Support Bill, the Deputy will be aware that a number of amendments are currently being considered arising from a review of the Bill following the Second Stage debate and further consultations since publication. A number of legal issues have arisen in the course of preparation of the legislation which require further advice and clarification. The amendments which are currently under consideration are consistent with the purpose of this legislation, which is to provide for the making of student grants to enable students to attend higher and further education courses and its principal objective, which is to create a more coherent system for the administration of these grants to facilitate consistency of application and improved client accessibility. It is not envisaged that these amendments will substantially alter the current thrust of the Bill. In light of the long-term policy objectives and a broad range of representations since publication of the Bill, my Department is currently examining whether an enabling provision for part-time courses might be inserted into the legislation. While the Deputy will appreciate that the current financial situation will not make it possible to extend funding to part-time study at the moment, it is recognised that it would nonetheless be opportune to provide scope in the legislation for the limited inclusion of part-time courses at some point in the future, should resources permit. This is a complex task which involves detailed consideration and consultation, both from the legal and policy points of view. The Department has asked the Office of the Parliamentary Council to consider draft amendments to the relevant sections of the Bill for the possible inclusion of part-time study. A number of the amendments to the Student Support Bill are at the final stages of preparation and my Department is currently working closely with the Office of the Attorney General to finalise any outstanding matters. I hope to be in a position to have these amendments finalised shortly with a view to progressing to Committee Stage before the summer recess.

Schools Recognition. 50. Deputy Joe Costello asked the Minister for Education and Science the number of schools recognised by his Department in 2008 at both primary and post-primary level; the number of schools expected to be recognised by his Department in 2009; if a moratorium has been put on school reconditions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12259/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): A total of 25 new primary schools and two new post-primary schools were recognised by my Department in 2008, and it is proposed to recognise a further two schools at post-primary level in 2009. I should explain that a full review of the criteria and procedures for the recognition and establishment of new primary schools is currently being undertaken by the Commission on School Accommodation. It is expected that this will be completed and recommendations made to me by the Commission before the end of 2009. I am also giving consideration to a range of issues concerning the establishment of new schools at post-primary level. In the interim, it is not my intention to recognise new schools, except in areas where the increase in pupil numbers cannot be catered for by extending existing schools and where new schools are therefore warranted. This means that new schools will not be established for reasons unrelated to demographic growth in areas where there is already sufficient school accommodation or where increases in pupil numbers can be catered for by extending existing school accommodation. While the 799 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] review is ongoing, it is proposed that the Department will identify the areas where new schools are required based on detailed examination and analysis of the demographics of each area. These details will be circulated to all existing Patron Bodies and it will be open to those patrons to put themselves forward as patron for any such new school. This review does not mean that there will be a complete cessation of the school building programme outside areas of rapid growth. In addition to the establishment of new schools in areas of rapid population growth, the normal building programme of modernising, replacing or extending existing schools will continue.

School Accommodation. 51. Deputy Michael D. Higgins asked the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamentary Question 524 of 10 March 2009 the reason boards of management are responsible for acquiring temporary school accommodation and signing such contracts, but are barred by his Department from taking out mortgages in order to build permanent accommodation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12265/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): As indicated in my response to Parliamentary Question No. 524 on 10 March 2009, my Department provides grant aid towards the provision of temporary school accommodation to the management authorities of education providers where it is established that a need for such temporary accommodation exists. School authorities are not barred from taking out mortgages to build accommodation. However, any proposal by a school authority to raise finance for which the State is to act as guarantor and/or fund the repayments needs to be closely examined as to its appropriateness in terms of Public Procurement Procedures and Public Financial Procedures generally.

52. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the number of pupils at primary and second level schools throughout the country accommodated in temporary or unfit buildings; the extent to which plans are afoot to replace such structures; when such plans are expected to reach fruition; the number of instances in each of the past three years to date in which accommodation needs have been met in the first instance by way of permanent accommodation; the reason some schools are forced to accommodate staff and pupils in largely unfit temporary accommodation for up to 20 years while others do not; the reason for this disparity; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12013/09]

230. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the number of children accommodated in temporary structures at primary and post primary level here; the number of national schools, scoileanna gaeilge, Educate Together or other schools so affected; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12367/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I propose to take Questions Nos. 52 and 230 together. The demand for additional accommodation in schools has risen significantly over the last number of years, with the appointment of 6,000 extra teachers in the primary sector alone since 2002. In considering the need to provide extra resource and other teachers to schools in recent years, the Government could have decided to make children wait until permanent accommodation could be provided. However, we prioritised putting the extra teachers into schools as soon as possible and, in some cases, this has involved the provision of high-quality prefabricated structures to accommodate them. 800 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

In general, my Department approves the purchase or rental of prefabricated classrooms based on need at the time of application. Local school managements then organise their class numbers, year on year, to achieve the optimum local efficiencies. My Department does not hold information on the numbers of pupils in individual schools who currently occupy temporary accommodation; this depends on the organisation of class groups by schools within available accommodation and may vary from year to year. Separately, my Department has surveyed almost 900 primary schools across the country regarding their use of rented prefabricated accommodation and is finalising the compilation of this information. The information gathered has been used to produce a database of information on rented prefabricated accommodation which will be maintained on an ongoing basis and will be used to inform my Department’s future decision-making in this area. Following analysis of costs in my Department, it is now practice to purchase rather than rent temporary accommodation where the need for such accommodation is likely to exist for more than three years. This will reduce the incidence of long term rental of prefabs. A review of rental policy is ongoing which will, inter alia, recommend improvements in the terms of rental contracts, for example, to incorporate buy out, buy back, rental costs and relocation options to suit individual local circumstances. Furthermore, the review will involve an investigation of all existing rental contracts between schools and suppliers with a view to identifying action to reduce overall rental costs for the Department. In the meantime, schools proposing to rent temporary accommodation must seek competitive quotes from suppliers which should allow them to achieve optimum value for money in the current market circumstances.

Student Councils. 53. Deputy Liz McManus asked the Minister for Education and Science further to parliamentary Question No. 27 of 26 February 2009, the reason his Department only understands that student councils have been established in the majority of post primary schools and that the remaining schools are in the process of establishing councils and cannot say with certainty what the current situation is; the reason the name of each post primary school which has established a student council is not readily available; if his Department will conduct an audit of schools to ascertain this information; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12236/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Education Act, 1998 provides for the establishment of student councils, intending them to play an integral and important role in the post-primary school community. Student councils provide a representative structure through which students can debate issues of concern and undertake initiatives of benefit to the school and the wider community. Section 27 of the Education Act, 1998 provides that students of post-primary schools may establish a student council. It also provides that the board of management shall encourage the establishment by students of a student council; and shall facilitate and give all reasonable assistance to students who wish to establish a student council and to student councils when they have been established. A board of management of a post-primary school is required to draw up rules for the establishment of a student council, including the election of members and the dissolution of a council, in accordance with the 2002 ministerial guidelines on the establishment and operation of student councils, ‘Student Councils: A Voice for Students’. An Assistant National Co-ordinator with responsibility for student councils was appointed to the Second Level Support Service in 2007. This co-ordinator has designed and is delivering a programme of professional development to respond to the identified needs and to support 801 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] teachers with establishing student councils in their schools. In addition, this co-ordinator can provide support to all of the students in a school prior to establishing its student council and to the students on the council, following their election. As part of Whole School Inspection, the Inspectorate engages with the student council of the school and where there is no council they recommend that a council should be established. Information on the establishment of a student council is available on a school by school basis from the school’s inspection reports. Both the work of the Inspectorate and the National Co-ordinator provide valuable information to my Department in relation to the establishment of student councils across post primary schools. My Department understands that student councils have been established in the majority of post-primary schools and that the remaining schools are in the process of establishing councils. As there is no mandatory requirement on schools to establish student councils, I have no plans to conduct an audit in this area. I consider that the best use of resources at this time is to support the establishment and performance of student councils.

Third Level Fees. 54. Deputy Arthur Morgan asked the Minister for Education and Science his views on the graduate tax that has recently been proposed. [12270/09]

55. Deputy Arthur Morgan asked the Minister for Education and Science if he has had consultations with his Australian counterpart with regard to their higher education contribution scheme in view of recent proposals to put in place a similar scheme here. [12269/09]

78. Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh asked the Minister for Education and Science if he will include the Union of Students of Ireland in talks that take place on the proposal to reintroduce third level fees. [12271/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I propose to take Questions Nos. 54, 55 and 78 together. As the Deputies are aware, I am currently finalising a review of policy options relating to the introduction of a form of student contribution. To assist in its examination of the available options, my Department’s review group met with an Australian expert who was involved in the implementation of the Australian income contingent loan model. This was in the context of a general examination of various models in operation internationally. I welcome the views expressed in relation to the graduate tax proposal. The proposal is helpful in its recognition of the desirability of some form of contribution by students to the cost of their higher education. There are many complex and competing considerations including costs, affordability and value for money for the taxpayer which need to be taken into account in considering all of the available options. It is my intention to bring proposals to Government in the near future in relation to the available options. Finally, I wish to advise the Deputies that I have met with the Union of Students of Ireland and we agreed to have further meetings on a regular basis. These meetings are intended to cover any issues of concern to the Union.

School Staffing. 56. Deputy Denis Naughten asked the Minister for Education and Science if his attention has been drawn to the implications of the proposed staffing cuts for vocation education committee schools in County Roscommon; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12014/09] 802 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The 2009 Budget required difficult choices to be made across all areas of public expenditure. Decisions were made in order to control expenditure and to ensure sustainability in the long term. In this respect my Depart- ment, while protected to a much greater extent than most other areas of public expenditure, could not be entirely spared, and I acknowledge the impact of funding restrictions in a number of areas, including at school level. However, these are the inevitable result of the challenging economic environment and the need to manage Exchequer resources prudently. These decisions included the withdrawal of teaching posts which have been historically provided under previous disadvantage schemes to non-DEIS schools and the increasing of the pupil teacher ratio across all second-level schools from 18:1 to 19:1. In the case of fee-charging post- primary schools, there will be an additional one-point adjustment to 20:1. Teacher allocations to all VEC schools are approved annually by my Department in accordance with established rules based on recognised pupil enrolment. In accordance with these rules each VEC is required to organise its subject options within the limit of its approved teacher allocation. The deployment of teaching staff, the range of subjects offered and ultimately the quality of teaching and learning are in the first instance a matter for the VECs. In accordance with existing arrangements, where a school management authority is unable to meet its curricular commitments within its approved allocation, my Department considers applications for additional short term support i.e. curricular concessions. This concession is available as a short term support to enable essential curricular provision to continue. The allocation processes also include appellate mechanisms under which VECs can appeal against the allocation due to them under the staffing schedules. The CEO of a VEC can submit an appeal under certain criteria to an independent Appeal Board which was established specifically to adjudicate on appeals on staffing allocations in post-primary schools. This Board operates independently of my Department. Discrete allocations are also made to VEC schools to cater for pupils with Special Educational Needs and those with Language difficulties for example. The main focus of Social Inclusion measures will be to retain resources in DEIS schools. There is a need to focus targeted resources on the schools in most need and this approach is in line with the broad thrust of the recommendations of the Comptroller and Auditor General which are set out in his report on Primary Disadvantage of 2006, which recommended that my Department should focus its educational disadvantage measures on those schools serving the most disadvantaged communities.

Schools Building Projects. 57. Deputy Michael D’Arcy asked the Minister for Education and Science the provision he has made in the case of direct funding school building projects for the payment to suppliers of equipment and materials to sub-contractors employed by the main contractors when such sub- contractors do not discharge their debts; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12011/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): Contracts for school building projects (and indeed all public works building contracts) comply with either the GDLA-1982 form of contract or the new Department of Finance form of contract for public capital projects. My Department has no authority to change the terms of these contracts. In general all sub-contractors employed on school building projects are employed directly by the Main Contractor or indirectly by the Main Contractor through other sub-contractors. It 803 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] is a matter for all sub-contractors to agree terms and conditions and a schedule of payments with their direct employer. A school building project is a complex arrangement of contractual relationships between the client, the main contractor, specialist sub-contractors, domestic sub-contractors, suppliers of materials, suppliers of plant etc. Where my Department is the Client its relationship is with the Main Contractor and my Department (or indeed any client) cannot take responsibility for resolving disputes within the chain.

School Staffing. 58. Deputy Joe Costello asked the Minister for Education and Science the schools that have been allowed keep more than two staff in English as an additional language programme, under the exceptional circumstances clause which he has promised will be used to exempt certain schools from this cutback; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12255/09]

74. Deputy Joanna Tuffy asked the Minister for Education and Science if his Department is planning to issue a circular to schools on the status and administration of the English language as an additional language programme; the main points of the forthcoming circular; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12256/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I propose to take Questions Nos. 58 and 74 together. In light of the Budget 2009 decision my Department has now published a circular for schools which sets out how the new arrangements will operate for the allocation of language support teachers from September 2009. The circular sets out a structured and transparent approach for the operation of the alleviation measures that were announced in the budget for schools that have a significant concentration of newcomer pupils. The alleviation measures mean that these schools can qualify for up to four language support posts with the possibility of additional post(s) also being approved through the independent staffing appeals mechanism. Schools can now apply to my Department in the normal way for language support posts. These posts are approved on a provisional basis initially and will be confirmed in September 2009 following receipt from the schools of actual enrolments of pupils requiring language support. It is estimated that notwithstanding the budget measures there will be over 1,400 language support teaching posts in our primary and post-primary schools in September 2009 and up to about 500 other teachers in part-time posts. By any standards this is a very significant resource and the challenge will be to ensure that it is used to maximum effect.

Schools Building Projects. 59. Deputy Seymour Crawford asked the Minister for Education and Science the position regarding the restructuring of a school (details supplied) in County Monaghan; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12274/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The proposed building project at the school to which the Deputy refers is at an advanced stage of architectural planning. The progression of all large scale building projects, including this project, from initial design stage through to construction phase will be considered in the context of my Department’s multi-annual School Building and Modernisation Programme. However, in light of current competing demands on the capital budget of the Department, it is not possible to give an indicative timeframe for the further progression of the project at this time. 804 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Third Level Education. 60. Deputy Jim O’Keeffe asked the Minister for Education and Science the steps he is taking to assist persons, who have recently been made unemployed, to re-enter third level education; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12225/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): All places in higher education institutions for the academic year 2009/2010 are open to unemployed persons and information on all third level education options are being made available to local FA´ S offices who provide referral services for unemployed persons under the National Employment Action Plan. Unem- ployed persons who qualify for the Department of Social and Family Affairs Back to Education Allowance may also qualify for a student maintenance grant under my Department’s student support scheme. Officials of my Department are working very closely with officials in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to ensure that appropriate responses are developed and put in place to meet the upskilling needs of those who are losing their jobs or facing uncertain employment prospects. In particular, opportunities for increased collaboration between FA´ S, the Institutes of Technology and the VECs are being identified with a view to ensuring that the impact of the State’s overall investment in education and training is maximised to support those who are being made unemployed. The Institutes of Technology are also working closely with FA´ S to facilitate redundant apprentices in completing the education phases of their apprenticeship and in progressing to other higher education courses. Colleges are taking steps to utilize all available capacity to address the needs of the unemployed, including the provision of preparatory courses for those who may be a long time out of the formal education system. From September 2009 provision will be expanded in course areas where employment opportunities are likely to develop and the scope for more flexible delivery of provision is being examined, including the possibility of alternate start dates, increased modularisation and accelerated programmes with a view to maximising the scope for unemployed persons to avail of third level education opportunities.

Early Childhood Education. 61. Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh asked the Minister for Education and Science the position regarding the practice of early immersion education. [12272/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): This issue relates to the impact of providing an immersion model of education in Irish medium schools under which no English is taught for a significant part of the infant cycle. There are a range of studies which highlight the effectiveness of immersion approaches to language learning. However, the precise models of immersion in use, whether this applied to the exclusion of other languages, the socio-economic profile of students, their home linguistic background, and the national context and level of societal use of the immersion language in the studies are not always clear and make comparisons difficult with the situation in Ireland. A review of literature in this area undertaken on behalf of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment in 2006 concluded that “existing international research is not adequate to decide the reading sequencing issue clearly in the context of Irish immersion, either in a general way or in particular schools.” Circular 0044/2007 requires that Irish medium schools should provide for a minimum provision in English of 2.5 hours per week for infant classes, no later than the start of the second 805 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] term in Junior infants. The previous Minister fully discussed this issue with Irish language organisations and the National Parent’s Council prior to issue of the Circular to schools. Circular 0044/2007 is now the subject of a legal challenge in the High Court, therefore my Department is prohibited from taking steps pursuant to implementation of the Circular until the judicial review has been heard and a final verdict has been given. Officials of my Department are engaging in discussions with Gaelscoileanna to explore the scope for resolving the issue. If this proves feasible it will be then be necessary to discuss the matter further with the other parties with an interest in the matter.

School Staffing. 62. Deputy Denis Naughten asked the Minister for Education and Science if his attention has been drawn to the implications of the proposed staffing cuts for post primary schools attended by pupils from County Roscommon; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12015/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I have consistently said that the 2009 Budget required difficult choices to be made across all areas of public expenditure. These decisions were made to control public expenditure and to ensure sustainability in the long run. In this respect Education while protected to a much greater extent than most other areas of public expenditure could not be totally spared, and I acknowledge the impact of funding restrictions in a number of areas, including at school level. However, these are the inevitable result of the challenging economic environment and the need to manage Exchequer resources prudently. These decisions included the withdrawal of teaching posts which have been historically provided under previous disadvantage schemes to non-DEIS schools and the increasing of the pupil teacher ratio across all second-level schools from 18:1 to 19:1. In the case of fee-charging post-primary schools, there will be an additional one-point adjustment to 20:1. The budget measures will impact on individual schools in different ways depending on whether enrolment is rising or declining and the degree to which any one school has more teachers than it is entitled to under the allocation processes. Across the school system generally there will of course be some impact on class sizes and the changes may impact on the capacity of individual second-level schools to offer as wide a range of subject choices as heretofore. Teacher allocations to all second level schools are approved annually by my Department in accordance with established rules based on recognised pupil enrolment. In accordance with these rules each school management authority is required to organise its subject options within the limit of its approved teacher allocation. The deployment of teaching staff in the school, the range of subjects offered and ultimately the quality of teaching and learning are in the first instance a matter for the school management authorities. In terms of the position at individual school level the key factor for determining the level of resources provided by my Department is the pupil enrolment at 30 September 2008. The annual process of seeking this enrolment data from schools took place in the autumn and the data has since been received and processed in my Department enabling the commencement of the processes by which teaching resources are allocated to schools for the school year that begins next September. Initial allocation letters have issued to Post Primary Schools and Vocational Educational Committees. The allocation is provisional at this stage and reflects the initial allocation position. The final position for any one school will depend on a number of other factors such as the 806 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers allocation of support teachers, additional posts for schools that are developing rapidly and posts allocated as a result of the appeals processes. In accordance with existing arrangements, where a school management authority is unable to meet its curricular commitments within its approved allocation, my Department considers applications for additional short term support i.e. curricular concessions. This concession is available as a short term support to enable essential curricular provision to continue. The allocation processes also include appellate mechanisms under which schools can appeal against the allocation due to them under the staffing schedules. The Board of Management of a school can submit an appeal under certain criteria to an independent Appeal Board which was established specifically to adjudicate on appeals on staffing allocations in post-primary schools. This Board operates independently of my Department. Discrete allocations are also made to post-primary schools to cater for pupils with Special Educational Needs and those with Language difficulties for example and these allocations can alter the ultimate position of the school in relation to any over quota position.

School Curriculum. 63. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Minister for Education and Science the position regarding the walk tall and personal health programmes; if there are cut backs proposed to the programmes due to the economic situation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8949/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Substance Misuse Preven- tion Programme (Walk Tall) support service is available to all primary and special schools in all Local Drugs Task Force Areas and has been also offered to DEIS schools. Along with all other areas of expenditure, provision will be subject to ongoing review in the context of expenditure management. The Social, Personal and Health Education (SPHE) support service was introduced to schools, at Junior Cycle from September 2000 and has been part of the curriculum since 2003. The SPHE receives funding from my Department, as well as the HSE. There are no plans to reduce my Departments budget contribution up to September 2009. As the Deputy is aware I have had to reduce the number of personnel in this and other support services, nevertheless from September 2009 the SPHE will be amalgamated with the Second Level Support Service (SLSS) in order to leverage the capacity which currently exists within the sector, thus ensuring that a wide range of support for all teachers will remain in place.

Student Councils. 64. Deputy Liz McManus asked the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamen- tary Question No. 27 of 26 February 2009, if his attention has been drawn to the view that some student councils regard the whole school inspection process as factually inaccurate because in some cases student councils are asked by the principal or their teachers to be less than frank and open with the school inspectorate; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12238/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): A meeting with representatives of the students’ council (or a representative group of students where no students’ council exists in a school) is one of the techniques that inspectors use when evaluating the work of post- primary schools. Inspectors make every effort to conduct this meeting in a relaxed, informal manner so as to put students at ease and allow them to talk openly about their school. The evidence collected during these interviews complements evidence collected from a range of other sources including observations in the school, the examination of students’ work and progress, examination results, attendance data, information from school documentation and 807 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] interviews with staff and management. A further important source of evidence comes from the meetings that inspectors conduct with the parents of students, and I should note that no evidence has come to my Department’s attention from these meetings with parents to suggest that their children have been asked by a principal or teachers to conceal their criticisms of a school. The Deputy appears to be suggesting that in certain cases, principals and teachers have instructed students to give false or incomplete evidence to inspectors during the course of whole-school evaluations. I am very concerned at the allegations that the Deputy is making. I am not aware of any instance where this has occurred, but I would urge the Deputy to provide my Department with the names of the schools, principals and teachers to which she is referring in her question so that the matter may be pursued with the school authorities concerned.

Third Level Fees. 65. Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the Minister for Education and Science when he will announce his plans for third level funding reform. [12268/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): As the Deputy is aware, the process to develop a new national strategy for higher education is now underway which is being overseen by a high level steering group, chaired by economist Dr Colin Hunt and comprising national and international expertise including academic, business, community and student interests, as well as senior government officials. It is expected that the group will complete its work before the end of the year. The process affords a timely opportunity to review the environment for higher education and the challenges and changes that are impacting on the sector. An examination of the overall operational, governance and resourcing framework are important elements of the strategy review. The Government is investing unprecedented levels of public funding in higher education. In 2008 some \2 billion was invested in our third level sector. In contributing to the achievement of national policy goals for social and economic development into the future, it can be anticipated that there will be continuing significant resource needs for the sector. It is appropriate to raise questions around how future additional resource needs can be met and in particular how our higher education institutions can be supported in their development ambitions through a widening of their non-Exchequer sources of income, including through a new form of student contribution. I am currently finalising a review of policy options relating to the introduction of a form of student contribution. It is my intention to bring proposals in the near future to Government in relation to the available options.

Higher Education Grants. 66. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister for Education and Science if he is having discussions with the vocational education committees and their representative organisations with a view to rationalising the administration of student grants as envisaged under the Student Support Bill 2008; his views on such rationalisation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12263/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Student Support Bill, which was published in February 2008 provides the legislative framework for the reform of the administration of student grants and the amalgamation of the existing four student grant schemes into a single unified scheme which will be provided for by way of regulation. 808 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

The Bill is part of an overall programme of legislative and administrative reform, which will facilitate the introduction of significant service level improvements in the administration of student grants, providing for greater consistency of application, improved client accessibility and timely delivery of grants to those who need them most. It will include guaranteed timeframe for the assessment of grants, an independent appeals procedure and more efficient arrangements for handling applications and making payments. This new, significantly more customer-oriented system of administration will provide for a more simplified and accessible applications system, much greater speed and consistency in processing student grant applications, more transparency and accountability in the awarding of grants and regular, on-time EFT payments for students. The passage of the Bill will facilitate progress on the two other significant pillars of this project, the development of a single unified grant scheme and the consolidation of the administration of student grants into the VEC sector. The Department is working closely with the IVEA and other relevant stakeholders to develop the new administrative structures required to support more efficient and effective delivery of the new unified grants scheme.

Property Transfers. 67. Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamen- tary Question No. 22 of 26 February 2009, the identity of the property that was transferred from his Department to the Health Service Executive which was subsequently sold by the HSE in 2005; the amount of money which was received by the HSE for that sale; if the HSE in turn paid moneys from that sale back to his Department; if so, the amount of same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12242/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I wish to advise the Deputy in the first instance that the property in question was not transferred from my Department to the Health Service Executive but was transferred directly from the religious order in question to the HSE under the terms of the Indemnity Agreement. I can tell you that the property in question is 28 The Woodlands, Celbridge, Co. Kildare. While my Department was not involved in the subsequent disposal of the property in question, I have been informed by the HSE that this property was sold by them and that the proceeds amounting to \280,000 was subsequently returned to the Exchequer.

Question No. 68 answered with Question No. 46.

Departmental Reports. 69. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamentary Question No. 23 of 26 February 2009, if the terms of reference have been finalised for the high level steering group on third level education (details supplied) and comprising national and international expertise; if there will be staff from his Department seconded to work with this steering group; the structured role, from an organisational point of view, the Higher Education Authority will have in advancing the work of this group; if he has set a precise timetable for the group to complete its work in view of the urgency that surrounds the third level sector from the point of view of funding and the imminent announcement regarding the position of additional third level fees; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12240/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): As the Deputy is aware, in early February I announced the process to develop a new national strategy for higher edu- 809 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] cation, which will examine how well Ireland’s higher education system is performing, how it ranks internationally, how well existing resources are being used and how the system can be re-configured to best meet the many challenges it faces over the next decade having regard to the key role it has to play in contributing to Ireland’s economic recovery. The process will have regard to existing policies and strategies already developed by Government which affect the sector, such as the Strategy for Science, Technology and Innovation and the National Skills Strategy. The process is being led by a high level steering group comprising national and international expertise. The membership of the Steering Group which held its first meeting on 4 March 2009 is as follows: Dr Colin Hunt, Economist, Dr John Hegarty, Provost Trinity College Dublin Marion Coy, President, Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology Professor John Casteen, President of the University of Virginia Professor Jussi Valimaa, University of Jyvaskyla Dick Lehane, former Senior Vice-President of Worldwide Manufacturing at the EMC Cor- poration Paul Rellis, Managing Director, Microsoft Ireland Peter Cassells, Chair of the National Centre for Partnership Performance Shane Kelly, President of USI Michael Kelly, Chairman of Higher Education Authority Dr Mary Canning, Former World Bank Education Specialist and member of the Higher Education Authority Brigid McManus, Secretary General, Department of Education and Science Martin Shanagher, Assistant Secretary, Department of Enterprise Trade and Employment Mary Doyle, Assistant Secretary, Department of An Taoiseach Robert Watt, Assistant Secretary, Department of Finance

The Secretary to the Steering group is an official of the Higher Education Authority. Two staff members from the Department of Education and Science, as well as a staff member from Forfa´s have also been seconded to the Secretariat. It is expected that the Steering group will complete its work before the end of the year. The terms of reference for the strategy are as follows:

1. To consider the role of Irish higher education in the context of higher education’s role in modern societies and, in particular, in the modern knowledge society.

2. Describe and analyse the current environment of Irish higher education including: the current system in terms of its student numbers, funding, funding models, organisational arrangements and the roles of the different public and private entities involved in the higher education and research domain; the existing policy objectives; identification and assessment of external factors likely to influence change in the sector (e.g. demographics, 810 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

student mobility) and; the international environment in which the Irish higher education system operates including the benchmarking of the system against relevant international comparators and higher education systems, processes and outcomes in other countries.

3. Having regard to the issues arising from 1 and 2 above, and from the process of consultation on those issues, to develop a vision and related set of national policy objectives for Irish higher education for the next 20 years with more focused targets for the sector for the next five years.

4. Having regard to the outcomes of 3 above, and taking into account best international practice, identify the operational framework of the higher education system including the number and roles of institutions within it which will enable it to deliver on these policy objectives; recommend any changes required in the system of oversight and accountability that will support achievement of objectives; determine the level of resources required to achieve the stated objectives, look at the effectiveness of use of current resources, identify any potential for rationalisation or change to maximise the use of those resources and identify how any additional resource requirements can be met having particular regard to the difficult budgetary and economic climate that is in prospect in the medium term.

School Accommodation. 70. Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the Minister for Education and Science when he will survey the remaining schools with regard to their usage of prefabricated buildings. [12267/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The survey of over 900 schools was primarily carried out to consolidate information already available on individual files in order to set up a database of rented accommodation. It also obtained information on purchased prefabricated units in those schools. Arrangements are being made to conduct a survey of accommodation at primary and post- primary level and this will establish the position relating to the extent of all accommodation. The specifications for this inventory are being drafted and my Department will be in contact with the education partners in relation to this later this year. It is not possible at this stage to indicate when the exercise will be completed.

Schools Building Projects. 71. Deputy Sea´n Barrett asked the Minister for Education and Science when work will commence on the extension in respect of a primary school (details supplied) in County Dublin which was sanctioned by his Department and the necessity for which has been stressed in the whole school evaluation by his Department’s inspectorate and published on his Department’s website; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12010/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The school to which the Deputy refers has applied to my Department for large scale capital funding for an extension and refurbishment project. The project was announced for the appointment of a Design Team in April 2007. Unfortu- nately, the funding has not been available to date to enable this. The project will be considered for progression in the context of the School Building and Modernisation Programme. However, in light of the demand on the Department’s capital budget, it is not possible to give an indicative timeframe for the progression of the project at this time. 811 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Higher Education Grants. 72. Deputy Jim O’Keeffe asked the Minister for Education and Science if provision will be made to change the existing scheme in relation to third level maintenance grants, which prevents students who already hold a qualification at a particular level from being eligible to receive a grant for another course at the same level, in order to accommodate people who have recently lost their jobs and wish to return to college in order to upskill and re enter the work force; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12224/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): Under the current terms of the third level student grant schemes, maintenance grants are not payable to candidates who already hold a qualification and are pursuing a second qualification at the same level. This restriction applies to every student who already holds a qualification at the same level, irrespec- tive of where that qualification was obtained or whether or not funding was previously awarded. The objective of the student grant schemes is to assist as many students as possible in obtaining one undergraduate degree and in progressing, where appropriate, to postgraduate studies. There are no plans at present to change the current arrangements. Any such proposal would have to be considered in the light of existing resources and other competing demands in the education sector.

School Patronage. 73. Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamen- tary Question No. 21 of 26 February 2009, if he will request his Department’s inspectors to pay an individual visit to each of the 120 primary schools within the Diocese of Cloyne, which serve approximately 18,000 pupils, to ensure that the board of management of each school is com- plying with all necessary requirements to ensure that adequate child protection procedures are in place, in view of the failure of a person (details supplied) to satisfactorily report incidents of child sexual abuse by persons under their authority; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12243/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The primary statutory responsibility for child protection lies with the Health Services Executive. The role of my Department is to provide guidance and support to schools in implementing child protection policy and to refer any allegations received to the appropriate authorities for investigation. I wish to advise the Deputy that my Department has issued child protection guidelines and procedures to all schools. The guidelines are based on Children First — the Department of Health and Children’s national guidelines for the protection and welfare of children. The Chil- dren First guidelines make very clear the reporting and investigation mechanisms to be followed in cases of suspected child abuse wherever they occur, and the lead role of the HSE. The guidelines for schools require each board of management to designate a senior member of staff, normally the principal, as the Designated Liaison Person (DLP) for the school. The DLP acts as a liaison person with the health authorities and other agencies on child protection issues and as a resource person to any staff member who has concerns in this regard. The Department has provided and continues to provide in-service training for Designated Liaison Persons and Deputy Designated Liaison Persons to assist them in dealing with child protection issues. In addition, the Department facilitates training for boards of management, parent education and also provides training at Pre-Service level if requested to do so by the colleges of education. The Deputy will be aware that as part of the Whole School Evaluation process in individual schools, my Department’s Inspectorate routinely checks that Child Protection Policies are in 812 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers place and that a Designated Liaison Person has been appointed. I have no plans to request the Inspectorate to visit each school in that diocese for the purpose suggested by the Deputy.

Question No. 74 answered with Question No. 58.

Schools Building Projects. 75. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister for Education and Science the number of new schools his Department estimates will need to be built over the years 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 in order to meet the increasing number of pupils entering the education system due to the significant growth in birth rates over the past five years; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12262/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): Forward Planning Section of my Department is in the process of identifying the areas where significant additional accommodation will be required at primary and post-primary level for 2009 and onwards. Factors under consideration include population growth, demographic trends, current and projected enrolments, recent and planned housing developments and capacity of existing schools to meet demand for places. Having considered these factors decisions will be taken on the means by which emerging needs will be met within an area. The number of new schools required over the years 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 to meet any increase in pupil numbers will be considered in this regard.

School Staffing. 76. Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall asked the Minister for Education and Science his views on revers- ing the decision to halve the numbers of teachers at a school (details supplied) in County Donegal from two to one in view of the fact that one teacher would not be able to teach eight classes at the same time, nor would they be able to assume the responsibilities of teaching children with special needs and that this school is in a unique situation given that it is an island gaelscoil in a disadvantaged area; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12266/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The key factor for determining the level of mainstream teacher resources provided by my Department to primary schools for the 2008/10 school year is the pupil enrolment at 30 September 2008. There were 11 pupils in the school referred to by the Deputy on 30 September, 2008 which under the appointment and retention procedures entitles the school to one Principal teacher. The school had 16 pupils on 30 September, 2007. The staffing schedule for the 2009/2010 school year, Primary Circular 0002/2009, has been published on my Department’s website at www.education.ie. The schedule is a transparent and clear way of ensuring that schools are treated consistently and fairly and know where they stand. If I were to change the staffing schedule to allow the schools that are due to lose a teacher to retain that teaching post I would be treating them differently from other schools with the exact same number on the rolls and I do not propose to do so. The system should not create anomalies or operate on the basis that one or more schools should be treated differently to others. The allocation process includes appellate mechanisms under which schools can appeal against the allocation due to them under the staffing schedule. The final allocation to a school is also a function of the operation of the redeployment panels. Details of the criteria and application dates for appeal are contained in the staffing schedule, Circular 0002/2009, available on my 813 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] Department’s website. The Appeal Board operates independently of the Department and its decision is final.

Schools Refurbishment. 77. Deputy Seymour Crawford asked the Minister for Education and Science the position regarding the restructuring of a school (details supplied) in County Cavan; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12273/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The proposed extension/refurbishment project at the school to which the Deputy refers is at an early stage of architectural planning. The progression of all large-scale building projects, including this project, from initial design stage through to construction, is dependent on the prioritisation of competing demands on the funding available under the Department’s capital budget. The project will be considered in the context of the Department’s multi-annual school building and modernisation programme. In the meantime, my Department has received an application for emergency works from the school. This application is being assessed and the school will be notified of the outcome in due course.

Question No. 78 answered with Question No. 54.

Home-School Liaison Scheme. 79. Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Minister for Education and Science if he will ensure that the home-school community liaison services for schools throughout the country will not be reduced or withdrawn in view of the fact that the impact that rising unemployment may have on families and homes may mean that children could become at risk as a result of disruption to family finances caused by a reduction in household income; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12250/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Deputy Sea´n Haughey): Following the introduction of DEIS (Delivering Equality of Opportunities in Schools), a commitment was given, as a concessionary measure, to non DEIS schools in receipt of resources under pre-existing schemes, including the Home School Community Liaison (HSCL) service, that they would retain a level of support in line with their size and disadvantage levels for the duration of the DEIS Initiative. Given the current volatile and challenging economic climate, difficult choices had to be made in order to contain public sector spending. Accordingly, from September 2009, HSCL services will be withdrawn from schools which were judged by an independent identification process in 2005 not to have a sufficient level of disadvantage among their pupils to warrant their inclusion in DEIS (Delivering Equality of opportunities in Schools), the Action Plan for Educational Inclusion. The main focus of Social Inclusion measures will be to retain resources in the 873 DEIS schools. There is a need to focus targeted resources on the schools in most need and this approach is in line with the broad thrust of the recommendations of the Comptroller and Auditor General which are set out in his report on Primary Disadvantage of 2006, which recommended that my Department should focus its educational disadvantage measures on those schools serving the most disadvantaged communities. 814 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Further Education. 80. Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Minister for Education and Science the reason his Department has imposed a lower cap on the number of students in a college (details supplied) in County Cork; his views on the need for an increased number of places in view of the rapid growth of unemployment; the measures he is taking to ensure re-training programmes are increased; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12253/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Deputy Sea´n Haughey): The overall number of approved PLC places is set at its current level of 30,188 because there is a continuing requirement to plan and control numbers and to manage expenditure within the context of overall educational policy and provision. Due to the difficult budgetary position, it was not possible to increase the number of places this year. Any possible future increase would have to take account of the present and prospective economic and budgetary context and related financial constraints. Places are allocated to Vocational Education Committees (VECs) on an annual basis following an application process. It is then a matter for VECs to allocate those places to their colleges and institutions. Each application is examined by my Department on its merits, taking into account current and previous allocations, current and previous demand and uptake, the overall places available and the overall demand from VECs generally. In the case of the VEC for the college referred to by the Deputy, there was a decline in the uptake of PLC places over the last number of years up to and including the 2007-2008 academic year and this was factored into the decision to reduce the allocation to the VEC for the 2008- 2009 academic year.

Education Grants. 81. Deputy Kathleen Lynch asked the Minister for Education and Science if he has received a letter (details supplied) regarding the impact of the financial cuts imposed on the Protestant voluntary secondary schools in budget 2009; if he has responded to the concerns expressed by them in their letter of 2 March 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12246/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I wish to reassure the Deputy that I, along with my colleagues in Government, recognise the importance of ensuring that students from a Protestant background can attend a school that reflects their denominational ethos. The Deputy may be aware that I met with representatives of the Church of Ireland Board of Education, led by Archbishop John Neill, on 13 November last. The meeting provided me with an opportunity to explain at first hand the context for the budget changes that were of concern to the Bishops and the schools serving the Church of Ireland and other minority churches. In the course of the meeting, I confirmed my budget day announcement that the funding provided through the Protestant Block grant was being continued by the Government. I explained that against a backdrop of a difficult economic and fiscal situation I had to take decisions that impacted on the staffing and the range of funding grants to schools generally. The decision to cease paying certain grants to the Protestant fee charging schools, which were not paid to other fee charging schools, has to be viewed in that wider context. I also stated that I would be willing to respond positively to any proposals they might make on how the block grant could be better targeted to meet the needs of the Protestant community, having regard to its dispersed population, particularly in rural and border areas, and the need to sustain and support Protestant schools. I look forward to receiving those proposals in due 815 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] course. I recently received correspondence from the Secondary Education Committee who have sought a meeting with my officials to progress the matter. I also met with representatives of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland on 10 March, the first time their members have sent a delegation to Leinster House. I briefed them on funding arrangements for Protestant schools and confirmed that I would be willing to meet them again if required. With the introduction of the free education scheme in 1967, it was recognised that the level of funding was not sufficient to enable Protestant schools to join the scheme, particularly given that many of their students had to board. For that reason, separate arrangements were put in place to ensure that Protestant students would be able to attend schools under Protestant management. However, Protestant fee-charging schools were never considered part of the free education scheme. The block grant, which is expected to be \6.5 million in this school year, covers capitation, tuition and boarding costs and is distributed through the Secondary Education Committee established by the churches concerned. Applications for assistance are made by parents to the Secondary Education Committee which, on the basis of a means test, distributes the funds to individual schools on the basis of pupil needs. This fund ensures that necessitous Protestant children can attend a school of their choice.

Immigrant Support Services. 82. Deputy Pat Breen asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his discussions with the US President Mr. Barrack Obama in Washington in March 2009; if he discussed the case for the undocumented Irish in the US; if a possible solution was discussed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12410/09]

The Taoiseach: I discussed the undocumented and immigration reform with President Obama and I believe that this is an issue that the new administration would like to see addressed. I also met with the Friends of Ireland group led by Congressman Richie Neal and also with Senators Patrrick Leahy and Chris Dodd and discussed the issue with them. Pending agreement in the United States on comprehensive immigration reform we will continue to work with our friends on Capitol Hill on reciprocal bilateral visa arrangements.

Job Creation. 83. Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment if there are job opportunities becoming available in the Trim, County Meath area; if such vacancies are expected to arise in the next number of months; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12608/09]

Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Mary Coughlan): Two Industrial Development agencies under the aegis of my Department — IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland — together with the local County Enterprise Board (CEB) are responsible for industrial development in the area in question. The agencies and the CEB are making every effort to assist job creation in the area. Job opportunities can arise in a range of companies both within and outside of the remit of the State agencies. Accordingly, I am not in a position to comment on what might happen in a particular area in the future. Job seekers should of course keep in close contact with their local FA´ S office which can provide information and supports in this regard. 816 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Redundancy Payments. 84. Deputy Richard Bruton asked the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the salary level against which redundancy compensation will be calculated in the event that an employer first imposes a cut in salaries across the board, and shortly afterwards announces a redundancy programme; and if redundancy will be calculated based on normal pay or the pay level after application of a cut. [12293/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Billy Kelleher): A redundancy lump sum is calculated based on the normal weekly wage/salary of the employee on the date he or she is made redundant. Where a change in wage/salary has been imposed and not agreed, and an employee is subsequently made redundant, it is the normal weekly wage/salary that is used to calculate the redundancy lump sum and not the revised one imposed by the employer. Any dispute between employee and employer in relation to the calculation of statutory redundancy entitlement may be referred to the Employment Appeals Tribunal (EAT) for adjudication.

National Skills Strategy. 85. Deputy Leo Varadkar asked the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the activities, membership and resources assigned to the interdepartmental steering committee onl lifelong learning; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12404/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Sea´n Haughey): The Interdepartmental Committee on the Implementation of the National Skills Strategy is chaired by Minister of State with responsibility for Lifelong Learning, Deputy Sea´n Haughey. The membership is comprised of the Secretaries General and other senior officials of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Education and Science. The Department of Finance is also represented at senior official level. At present the Committee is overseeing the drawing up of an Implementation Plan for the National Skills Strategy, which will be released later this year. The plan will present the methods through which the objectives contained in the National Skills Strategy will be pursued. The Committee is also responsible for overseeing the subsequent activation of this implementation plan.

Redundancy Payments. 86. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell asked the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the cost of redundancy rebate payments and payments from the insolvency fund in 2008; the cost of redundancy rebate payments and payments from the insolvency fund to date in 2009; the estimated amount to be paid in 2009; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12439/09]

87. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell asked the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the reason for the delays in processing redundancy rebates and insolvency fund payments; her Department targets for processing such claims; if she will provide a table showing the number of claims outstanding by category and the age profile of the claims in each category by the number of weeks waiting and the value of claims not yet paid for redundancy rebate payments and payments from the insolvency fund as of 13 March 2009. [12440/09]

88. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell asked the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the actions she has taken to allocate adequate resources to reduce the delays in 817 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Kieran O’Donnell.] processing redundancy rebates and insolvency fund payments; when the resources will be in place and the processing times reduced to her Department targets; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12441/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Billy Kelleher): I propose to take Questions Nos. 86 to 88, inclusive, together. Table 1, which follows, shows the expenditure figures for the year 2008 and to end February 2009 for both redundancy rebate and insolvency payments. The figures for 2009 are provisional. The Redundancy Payments and Insolvency Sections of my Department draw down funds monthly as required from the Social Insurance Fund (SIF). No estimate of future requirements therefore, can be produced in respect of expenditure. The Redundancy payments aspect of the SIF is administered by my Department on behalf of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Up until mid 2008, our customer service targets for processing correctly completed redundancy claims were, in order of priority: 4-6 weeks for statutory redundancy lump sum claims to employees whose employers failed to pay the statutory entitlement; 6 weeks where claims were correctly submitted online, hard copy printed down correctly signed and sent in by employer; 10+ weeks for manual claims sent in by employers. By and large these targets were met. In mid-2008, there was a surge in the number of claims received in Redundancy Payments, such that by the end of the year there had been an increase of 59.9% over 2007. There has been no diminution in the number of claims received to date in 2009. There has, in fact, been a huge increase (18,000 to date — a figure only reached in July of last year) and in consequence an approximate waiting time in order of priority of 6-8+ weeks for statutory lump sum payments to employees whose employers had failed to pay the statutory entitlement; 16+ weeks for correctly submitted online claims, hard copy printed down correctly signed and sent in by employer; 20+ weeks for manual claims sent in by employers. New insolvency claims received in February 2009 increased by 51% over the February 2008 figure. The cumulative figure for January to December 2008 at 12,028 is up 104% on the year 2007. This level of increase in insolvency has impacted on the claims processing times and on our customer service target claims processing of six to seven weeks. Processing has commenced on insolvency claims received in February. In view of the unprecedented level of applications currently in the Redundancy Payments area for processing and the need to prioritise the deployment of resources to this activity, I regret that it is not possible to compile the statistical information which the Deputy has requested on age profile or value of claims not yet processed for redundancy rebate payments and insolvency payments from the Social Insurance Fund as at 13 March 2009. I have re-allocated an additional nine persons to the Redundancy Payments Section since the start of the year and I have earmarked an additional 12 persons to be reassigned in the coming days and weeks. However, there is a limit to the amount of people that we can reassign internally because other areas of my Department are equally busy — for example on labour force activation issues and in the employment rights bodies (e.g. Employment Appeals Tribunal). Therefore, I am also in discussions with the Department of Finance to see what scope there is for the assignment of additional staff, possibly from other Departments, as happened in the case of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Every effort is being made to deal with an increasing backlog in an attempt to ensure that claimants get the best possible service at, what is for them, a very difficult time.

818 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Table 1: Redundancy Rebate Payments

2008 Redundancy Rebate Payments 2009 *Redundancy Rebate Payments

\m \m

151.2 19.4 *As at end of February 09.

Table 2: Insolvency Fund Payments

2008 Insolvency Fund 2009 *Insolvency Fund

\m \m

10.1 2.1 *As at end of February 09.

Ministerial Appointments. 89. Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall asked the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the name of the aviation expert who is advising her in relation to the future of a company (details supplied). [12476/09]

Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Mary Coughlan): IDA Ireland is currently working with an aviation expert who will be available to work with IDA to give technical expertise in relation to any full proposal received by IDA, following the decision by SR Technics to cease its Dublin operations. Due to the confidentially of this issue IDA will not be releasing the name of the person appointed.

Departmental Agencies. 90. Deputy Noel J. Coonan asked the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the number and location of offices the Industrial Development Authority operates in North Tipperary; if there are plans to increase the number of offices; the tasks the offices undertake; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12611/09]

Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Mary Coughlan): IDA Ireland is the agency with statutory responsibility for the attraction of foreign direct investment (FDI) to Ireland and its regions. The Agency does not have an office in North Tipperary. IDA Ireland has informed me that it markets North Tipperary, as part of an integrated Mid West region which comprises Limerick (City and County) and Clare, from its Mid West Regional Office located in the National Tech- nology Park in Limerick, as well as through its network of overseas offices. The opening of a separate IDA office in North Tipperary is not envisaged. The Limerick office, which is the public face of IDA in the Mid West, works closely with regional, national and international stakeholders in order to: (i) develop and grow the existing base of foreign direct investment companies in the region: (ii) maximize the quality and quantity of new overseas investment in the area.

Tax Code. 91. Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the Minister for Finance his views on allowing bus owners (details supplied) avail of the VRT category C rate if they can prove that they are 819 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in.] providing a service in their communities rather than the category A rate they are currently paying; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12414/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): The Deputy will be aware that a revised VRT system for Category A vehicles was announced in Budget 2008 and came into effect on 1 July 2008. I have no plans to change the criteria in relation to the VRT categories at this time.

Garda Stations. 92. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister for Finance if he will provide additional office accommodation for the Garda at a location (details supplied) in County Cork; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12437/09]

96. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister for Finance if the Office of Public Works has inspected a premises (details supplied) in County Cork for additional Garda accommodation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12436/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Martin Mansergh): I propose to take Questions Nos. 92 and 96 together. The provision of accommodation for An Garda Sıóchańa at Macroom has recently been re- prioritised by An Garda Sıóchańa. OPW will quickly assess all the options, including the site referred to by the Deputy. Assuming that a suitable property is identified, OPW will progress this, subject to the availability of funding.

Financial Institutions Support Scheme. 93. Deputy Richard Bruton asked the Minister for Finance the progress made to date in benchmarking the availability of credit from banks which are to receive State recapitalisation; if this procedure examines loans approved and loans declined and creates a fair set of criteria for judging whether the recapitalised banks are successfully restoring the flow of credit; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12294/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): As part of the recapitalisation package announced on 11 February, Allied Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland reconfirmed their December commitment to increase lending capacity to small and medium enterprises (SMEs) by 10% and to provide an additional 30% capacity for lending to first time buyers in 2009. If the mortgage lending is not taken up, then the extra capacity will be available to SMEs. AIB and Bank of Ireland have also committed to public campaigns to actively promote small business lending at competitive rates with increased transparency on the criteria to be met. Compliance with this commitment will be monitored by the Financial Regulator. The banks will make quarterly reports, with the first report to end March 2009 to be submitted by end April 2009. Both institutions have met with officials from my Department to give details of the steps they are taking to implement these measures. An independent review of credit availability, funded by the banks but managed jointly by the banks, Government and business representatives is also under way and will be completed shortly. Amongst the issues covered by this review will be changes in bank lending, repayment terms and a comparison with customer experiences prior to the onset of the financial crisis. I am satisfied that this review, along with the quarterly reports from the recapitalised institutions, will give a clear picture regarding the flow of credit in the Irish economy.

820 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

I should also add that a Code of Conduct for Business Lending to Small and Medium Enterprises was published by the Financial Regulator on 13 February and took effect on 13 March. This code applies to all regulated banks and building societies and will facilitate access to credit, promote fairness and transparency and ensure that banks will assist borrowers in meeting their obligations, or otherwise deal with an arrears situation in an orderly and appropriate manner. The business lending code includes a requirement for banks to offer their business customers annual review meetings, to inform customers of the basis for decisions made and to have written procedures for the proper handling of complaints. Where a customer gets into difficulty the banks will give the customer reasonable time and seek to agree an approach to resolve problems and to provide appropriate advice. This is a statutory code and banks will be required to demonstrate compliance.

Insurance Industry. 94. Deputy Olwyn Enright asked the Minister for Finance his views on allowing the financial services or Insurance Ombudsman examine warranty type situations (details supplied) in view of the fact that they are not subject to an appeals system at present; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12381/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): I presume the Deputy is referring to Home- bond who provides structural defect cover for certain new homes in association with the Con- struction Industry Federation. The Financial Services Ombudsman (FSO) deals with consumer complaints about financial service providers. The Homebond Insurance Scheme is regulated by the Financial Regulator and a consumer can contact the Financial Services Ombudsman regarding unresolved complaints about their individual dealings with all financial service providers. It is a free service to the complainant.

Banking Sector Remuneration. 95. Deputy Michael D’Arcy asked the Minister for Finance the bonuses paid to senior executives and management at the six banks covered by the State guarantee; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12391/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): The remuneration packages of the top executives in the six banks referred to in the Deputy’s question are listed in the annual accounts for each institution. The Deputy will be aware that I recently published the report by the Covered Institution Remuneration Oversight Committee (CIROC) which recommended reductions in prevailing base salary, bonus and pension levels for chief executives, chairpersons and ordinary board members that the Committee considered to be, in many cases, markedly excessive. The Com- mittee report, that with the exception of the Irish Nationwide Building Society where the CEO was paid a pre-contracted incentive bonus of \1,000,000 in relation to 2008, no bonuses will be paid to chief executives or the senior executive management teams in relation to performance in 2008/2009. However, I have written to the Chairs of the covered institutions asking them to revise their remuneration plans in such a way as to respect a salary cap of \500,000 or the amount recommended by CIROC, whichever is the lesser. The Deputy will note that in the report the Committee recommend that the remuneration of other executives should also be adjusted to take account of the revised salaries for chief executives.

821 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Question No. 96 answered with Question No. 92.

Tax Yield. 97. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell asked the Minister for Finance the amount collected in VRT in February 2009; the comparable figures for 2006, 2007 and 2008; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12442/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): I am informed by the Revenue Commissioners that the amount collected in VRT in February 2009 and the comparable figures for 2006, 2007 and 2008 are set out in the following table. The figures provided in relation to 2008 and 2009 are provisional at this juncture. The fall in VRT yield in February 2008 compared to February 2007 arose mainly from a change in the method of accounting for VRT payments which resulted in some payments being accounted for earlier than had been the practice. This accounting change considerably increased the January 2008 VRT yield compared to previous years while reducing in particular the February yield. The decline in yield in 2009 reflects inter alia the general slowdown in economic activity.

VRT

2006 2007 2008 (Prov) 2009 (Prov)

\m \m \m \m Feb 280.3 311.5 202.0 76.7

Financial Institutions Support Scheme. 98. Deputy Mary Alexandra White asked the Minister for Finance if consideration has been given to seeking agreement from the institutions which have benefited from the bank guarantee that they will review the size of the breakage fees they are charging mortgage holders to free themselves from fixed rate mortgages in order to move to variable rates so as to benefit from the fall in interest rates. [12446/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): Generally mortgages are for long periods. To some consumers a fixed interest rate on a mortgage offers peace of mind in that the borrower benefits from certainty regarding the cost of the mortgage, does not need to be concerned with changes in mortgage interest rates and accordingly, can budget more confidently. Anyone taking a fixed rate mortgage knows that they are ensuring certainty for their payments over the period. Where a bank offers a fixed rate over a certain period it incurs additional costs in obtaining fixed or other funding in respect of the loan over the period. The additional costs will reflect both the market view in relation to future trends in interest rates for the period and the fact that longer term deposits generally attract higher interest rates than short term. In addition, where a customer changes from a fixed interest rate contract to a variable rate contract before the end of the term for which the interest rate was fixed, there is an associated cost to the lender. In circumstances that lenders were prohibited from passing on this cost to borrowers switching to variable rates, this cost could increase the price and reduce the availability of fixed rate mortgages. The Deputy will appreciate that a balance must be achieved by Government between influencing private banks through the bank guarantee scheme and other financial support incentives 822 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers while at the same time being seen to have a hands-off approach to the day to day running of these institutions which must operate on a strictly commercial basis. I have not discussed this issue with any representatives of the credit institutions covered by the bank guarantee scheme and I have no plans to seek to impose this requirement on any credit institution.

Pension Provisions. 99. Deputy Jimmy Deenihan asked the Minister for Finance if he will tax or levy the Defence Forces gratuity; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12448/09]

105. Deputy Finian McGrath asked the Minister for Finance if he will advise on a query (details supplied). [12618/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): I propose to take Questions Nos. 99 and 105 together. Under statutory pension schemes and pension schemes approved by the Revenue Commis- sioners there is no liability to income tax in respect of retirement gratuities or lump sums paid to members of such schemes on retirement. Provided the employees and individuals referred to in the questions are members of such a scheme and the lump sum payments comply with Revenue rules in this area, there is no liability to income tax on the retirement lump sum payments. In this regard, it should be noted that the tax arrangements for retirement lump sums apply in respect of pension schemes in both the public and private sectors. The House will appreciate that I do not propose to comment on what may or may not be contained in the forthcoming supplementary budget. I have said in response to recent similar questions that I have no plans at this point in time to alter the tax treatment of retirement lump sum payments. This remains the position.

Arts Funding. 100. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister for Finance the arrangements with respect to the sponsorship of the RTE National Symphony Orchestra for the 2008-09 season; when these arrangements were concluded; the amount of money involved; if it is intended that this arrangement will be continued after the end of the 2008-09 season; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12460/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): Anglo Irish Bank is being run on an arm’s length commercial basis. Accordingly, normal commercial decisions, which include decisions on corporate sponsorship, are a matter for the Board of Anglo.

Tax Yield. 101. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister for Finance if he will clarify his recently reported comments regarding the increase in the headline VAT rate by 0.5% in budget 2009; the amount this increase was estimated to yield in 2009 at budget time; the amount this increase is estimated will yield in 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12461/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): As the Deputy is aware, the 0.5% increase in the standard VAT rate from 21% to 21.5% was introduced in the 2009 Budget as part of a general package of revenue-raising measures to fund key public services. The UK Government, as part of a fiscal stimulus package, then reduced their standard VAT rate from 17.5% to 15% on a temporary basis with effect from 1 December 2008 to 31 December 2009.

823 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Brian Lenihan.]

It would appear that the timing of Ireland’s VAT increase, given the subsequent temporary reduction in the UK rate, may have sent the wrong signal to consumers. However, given the current Exchequer deficit position, the Budget policy decision of increasing the VAT rate continues to be necessary in order to support the public finances. It is also evident that the very considerable weakening of sterling has had a far more significant impact on relative prices between this State and Northern Ireland than the changes in the standard VAT rates. On Budget day, 14 October 2008, the 0.5% increase in the standard VAT rate was estimated to yield \208m in 2009. Reflecting the subsequent further weakening in economic activity, in line with the downward revision of the estimated yield from all taxation heads, the yield in 2009 from the 0.5% increase in the standard VAT rate is now estimated at \164m.

Tax Collection. 102. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Finance when a P45 will issue to a person (details supplied) in County Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12506/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): I have been advised by the Revenue Commis- sioners that a form P45 is issued by the employer and not by Revenue. Revenue have written to the employer on 23rd March 2009 in relation to the matter.

103. Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Minister for Finance the way a person (details supplied) in County Westmeath, who received a balancing statement dated 13 August 2008, underpaid \77.41; the basis on which that calculation was made; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12605/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): I am advised by the Revenue Commissioners that the named person advised them on 13 August 2008 of his wife’s Disability Benefit income (DSFA Illness Benefit) for the year 2007. Following receipt of this information, his tax position for 2007 was reviewed to include this additional income and, on this basis, an underpayment of \770.41 (not \77.41 as quoted in this question) was calculated. A subsequent claim by the person for Medical Expenses reduced the net underpayment to \738.44. The net underpayment of \738.44 will be collected by reducing this person’s Tax Credits for the 2009 and 2010 tax years.

104. Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Minister for Finance if a person (details supplied) in County Westmeath, who became redundant in August 2008, is due further tax rebates; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12609/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): I am advised by the Revenue Commissioners that the person (details supplied) received a tax refund of \2,316.74 on 21 November 2008 following a review of his overall tax position for 2008. A further refund of \193.38 for the above year issued to him on 9 February 2009 following receipt of a subsequent claim for health expenses. Based on all available information there is no further refund of income tax due to this person for 2008.

Question No. 105 answered with Question No. 99.

824 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

National Lottery Funding. 106. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Finance his priorities in 2009 in respect of the allocation of funding to appropriate and qualifying bodies, groups or agencies from the proceeds of the national lottery; if such allocations are expected to follow or deviate from the practices or procedures of previous years; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8570/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): The Government decides on an annual basis the amount of funding which is to be allocated to subheads which are part-funded by the proceeds of the National Lottery. This occurs in the context of decisions on the Estimates for Public Services for the following year. The proceeds of the National Lottery are treated as an item of non-tax revenue and partly fund such expenditure. No deviation from this practice is envisaged in the context of finalising the Revised Estimates for Public Services 2009.

Banking Sector Regulation. 107. Deputy Joanna Tuffy asked the Minister for Finance if, following the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank, his Department has requested that an audit be carried out to establish the assets the bank holds as regards housing developments, whether unoccupied or uncompleted, and land banks, with and without planning permission or outline planning permission for housing development, which are the result of loan defaults; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10160/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): Anglo Irish Bank is operating as a going concern, being run on arm’s length commercial basis. Accordingly, matters relating to the normal commercial business of the bank, which includes the management of assets held by the bank, whether acquired on foot of loan defaults or otherwise, are a matter for the Board of Anglo. The Government’s focus to date has been on asset quality generally and the larger exposures in Anglo Irish Bank. To this end a number of reports have been commissioned by the Financial Regulator to review the loan books and the capital position of six of the covered institutions as at 30th September 2008. PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) and Jones Lang LaSalle (JLL) carried out these reviews. Furthermore, Due Diligence was carried out by Arthur Cox and Merrill Lynch between December and 14th January 2009. This work built on the work carried out by PWC and covered a detailed review of the top loans in the bank. The summary version of the PwC report that I published on Friday 20th February 2009 provides a geographic and also a segmental breakdown of Anglo’s development and investment loan books. This analysis indicates that investment in all stages of residential development account for circa 17% of Anglo’s group total loan book. As I have previously stated, I am not in a position to release the information contained in the relevant reports, other than what has been released to date, because of the commercially sensitive nature of the information.

Tax Code. 108. Deputy Liz McManus asked the Minister for Finance his views on the proposal to tax text messages; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10531/09]

825 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): As the Deputy will be aware, it is not custom- ary for the Minister for Finance to comment on possible tax and expenditure changes in advance of the Budget.

Sports Capital Programme. 109. Deputy Mary Upton asked the Minister for Finance the amount of funding the sports capital scheme received from the national lottery in each of the past five years; the reason the scheme could not have been run on national lottery funding alone in the event that there is no money available from the Exchequer; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8512/09]

Minister for Finance (Deputy Brian Lenihan): The allocation provided for the sports capital programme in each of the past five years is as follows:

Year \m

2004 63.597 2005 61.926 2006 62.724 2007 49.250 2008 56.000

The 2004 allocation was fully funded from the proceeds of the National Lottery. Since 2005, the total allocation for subheads which had formerly been funded entirely from the proceeds of the National Lottery has exceeded the funds available from the National Lottery. The total amount of funding is determined in the Estimates process, and is paid out of the general pool of revenue of which National Lottery proceeds form part. Subheads that prior to 2005 were funded exclusively by National Lottery funds are now funded by a combination of National Lottery and Exchequer funding, the total amounts vary from subhead to subhead depending on the outcome of the Estimates process. It is not, therefore, possible to indicate the percentage of National Lottery funding which was included in the allocations provided since 2005 for subheads that are partly funded by the National Lottery including the sports capital programme. Funds from the National Lottery as a percentage of the total allocation for all subheads which are part-funded by the proceeds of the National Lottery amounted to 64% in 2005, 56% in 2006, 52% in 2007 and 57% in 2008.

Health Services. 110. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Health and Children if the programme of school medical examinations is up to date in all respects; if children diagnosed have received adequate follow-up treatment; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12354/09]

Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Mary Harney): As this is a service matter it has been referred to the HSE for direct reply.

111. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Health and Children the extent to which it is intended to continue to provide financial support and assistance to ensure the continuation of the operation of the full range of facilities at a service (details supplied) in County Kildare; if her attention has been drawn to the commitments, the ongoing needs and the future requirements of children and adults in this category; her views on the need to make substan- 826 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers tially increased provision in the future in view of the expected requirements; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12376/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Deputy John Moloney): As the Deputy’s question relates to service matters I have arranged for the question to be referred to the Health Service Executive for direct reply.

Medical Cards. 112. Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall asked the Minister for Health and Children if payments are made to general practitioners in respect of their patients who are medical card holders when the patient is admitted to long-term nursing home care; if so, the amount paid in each of the past three years for which figures are available and the rationale for making such payments; if payments are not made, the procedures in place to ensure that the Health Service Executive is notified when the patient is admitted to nursing home care and that the person is deleted from a GP’s panel; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12377/09]

Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Mary Harney): The Health Service Executive (HSE) has the operational and funding responsibility for the General Medical Services (GMS) Scheme. Medical card holders are entitled to retain their medical card when they move into a private nursing home. In such circumstances, the HSE must continue to make a General Practitioner (GP) service available to the patient free of charge and they retain the right to choose their own GP in the same way as if they were living in the community. In respect of medical card holders, aged 70 years and over, who are resident in a private nursing home (approved by the HSE) for any continuous period of five weeks, the GP is currently paid a capitation rate equating to \973.99 per annum per card holder, plus a supplementary out-of-hours payment of \4.09. GPs do not generally receive a capitation fee for medical card patients in State run nursing homes. In respect of medical card holders under 70 years of age who are resident in a private nursing home, the GP is paid an annual capitation rate in accordance with the agreed schedule of fees, depending on the cardholder’s age, gender and distance from the GP’s surgery. The provisions of the agreement in the current GMS GP Capitation Contract in respect of medical card holders aged 70 or over take account of visits to private nursing homes being more likely to involve moderate to high dependency patients. The other information sought by the Deputy is not provided by the HSE to my Department as a matter of routine. Accordingly, the Parliamentary Affairs Division of the Executive has been requested to arrange to address these matters and to have a reply issued directly to the Deputy.

113. Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall asked the Minister for Health and Children if, regarding the over 70 years medical card, she will respond to reports that only a small proportion of persons believed to be over the new income threshold surrendered their medical cards; if pensioners have been given an additional month on top of the original deadline to hand back cards; if she will explain this means for those who complied with the new rules; and if they will be refunded general practitioner and medical costs to cover this extra month. [12388/09]

Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Mary Harney): Under the Health Act 2008, auto- matic entitlement to a medical card for persons aged 70 and over ended on 31st December 2008. With effect from 1st January 2009 the income thresholds for entitlement to a medical

827 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Mary Harney.] card for those aged 70 and over are \700 (gross) per week (\36,500 per year) for a single person and \1,400 (gross) per week (\73,000 per year) for a couple. The Health Service Executive (HSE) wrote to all persons aged 70 years and over in January 2009. Persons who were in receipt of a medical card on a non means tested basis were requested, if over the income limits set out in the Act, to make a declaration to the Executive, on or before the 2nd March 2009. To date, 10,181 persons have returned their medical cards to the HSE and I understand that cards are still being returned. Under the Health Act 2008, any person over the new income thresholds for the over 70s medical card is not entitled to use his / her card after March 2nd, 2009. There was no change to the deadline set out in the Act for persons to hand back their medical cards if their income exceeds the threshold. The HSE will be working with Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Office of the Revenue Commissioners on an ongoing basis to ensure that the scheme is not abused. If a person aged 70 or over does not qualify for a medical card under the new over 70s scheme, by virtue of their gross income being over the income thresholds, the person may apply to the HSE for a medical card or GP visit card under the current medical card scheme, which allows for medical, nursing and other relevant expenses to be taken into account. Persons who are in any way confused by the new scheme are encouraged to seek advice from their local health office which will continue to provide any necessary support, and which along with the HSE National Helpline (1850 24 1850), will handle enquiries from clients in respect of their medical card entitlements.

Health Services. 114. Deputy James Reilly asked the Minister for Health and Children the reason more than 2,000 children attending schools (details supplied) in County Cavan have no dental screening service or adequate dental surgery facilities which service is available in schools in other parts of the country; and the way she will address this dental service deficit. [12422/09]

Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Mary Harney): As this is a service matter it has been referred to the HSE for direct reply.

Health Service Staff. 115. Deputy James Reilly asked the Minister for Health and Children her views on a newspaper article (details supplied); her plans to address this situation; if she has communicated with the Medical Council on this matter; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12423/09]

Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Mary Harney): Under the Medical Practitioners Act 2007, disciplinary matters affecting registered medical practitioners are entirely a matter for consideration by the Medical Council and I have no role or function in such matters. When a medical practitioner has been erased in another jurisdiction, the Medical Council does not have the power to automatically erase that practitioner’s name from the register without holding an inquiry carried out in accordance with the provisions of the Medical Prac- titioners Act 2007.Λ This is a constitutional matter which has previously been ruled on by the Supreme Court. The Medical Council has established a system of information exchange with the UK General Medical Council whereby the relevant information arising from the outcome of all disciplinary procedures affecting a registered medical practitioner’s registration, in either jurisdiction, is

828 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers exchanged, unless, in the case of the Medical Council, it is prevented from doing so by the High Court. The Council is notified of a decision when a medical practitioner has been erased from the register by the General Medical Council in the UK. The Council then considers the matter in accordance with the Medical Practitioners Act 2007. This exchange of information is undertaken in accordance with Article 56 of EU Directive 2005/36/EC, in which the competent authorities for such matters in each member state are required to exchange information regarding disciplinary action or criminal sanctions taken against individual practitioners. Account was taken of the Supreme Court ruling in the preparation of the Medical Prac- titioners Act 2007. Section 66(3) of the Act provides that the Fitness to Practise Committee may receive evidence given orally before the committee, by affidavit or by means of a live video link, a video recording, a sound recording or any other mode of transmission. One intention of this provision was to make it easier for witnesses to give evidence in situations where they might be unable or unwilling to travel to the State for that purpose.

Nursing Home Subventions. 116. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell asked the Minister for Health and Children when she expects the fair deal as outlined in the Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill 2008 to come into operation for people on the ground; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12443/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Deputy Ma´ire Hoctor): The Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill 2008 completed Committee Stage in the Da´il on 12th March 2009. It is the Minister’s intention to progress the legislation through the Houses of the Oireachtas with a view to implementing the scheme in the second half of 2009. Unfortunately it is not possible to give a more specific timeframe at present.

Health Service Staff. 117. Deputy James Reilly asked the Minister for Health and Children the Health Information and Quality Authority staffing structure and pay rates for persons due to be involved in the inspection and registration of nursing homes; the locations at which the HIQA inspection staff and offices will be located; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12447/09]

Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Mary Harney): The process of the registration and inspection of nursing homes by the Health Information and Quality Authority will commence from July 1st, 2009. This will, for the first time, introduce an independent system of inspection of both public and private nursing homes. The staffing structure of the nursing home registration and inspection function within the Authority will be as follows:

Deputy Director (1 post): approved salary scale \106,076 – \126,507;

Regional Operations Managers (3 posts): approved salary scale \90,702 – \112,191;

Inspector Managers (19 posts): approved salary scale \73,392 – \91,594;

Inspectors (30 posts): approved salary scale \62,719 – \77,936.

The offices of the Authority are based in Cork (Mahon) and Dublin (Smithfield). In the interests of overall efficiency and effectiveness, some regionally-deployed inspection staff will

829 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Mary Harney.] be facilitated to work from home depending on the geographical location of their work and the distance from Health Information and Quality Authority offices.

Dormant Accounts Fund. 118. Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister for Health and Children the financial assistance she will provide to an organisation (details supplied) in County Waterford; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12450/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Deputy Barry Andrews): In relation to the funding of youth cafe´s, my Office has been allocated \750,000 from Dormant Accounts for the development of a structured programme of youth cafes in 2009. Final decisions on the operation of this programme are still under consideration. The launch of the National Recreation Policy in September 2007 highlighted Government’s commitment to the development of youth cafe´s. As the Deputy will be aware there are already a number of youth cafe´s in operation around the country. Funding for these existing initiatives is often provided through the local City/County Council and the Health Service Executive. In addition the Department of Com- munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs operates a number of relevant funding programmes aimed at supporting community development, locally based community and voluntary groups as well as programmes aimed specifically at supporting projects for disadvantaged youth. At this stage, the focus of my Office is to bring greater coherence to the approach taken to date, retaining the strong inter-agency element and identifying appropriate models for the future development of youth cafe´s. Since September 2007 my Office has undertaken a small survey of some of the existing cafe´s looking at mission/objectives, management and organisation, service levels and the role of young people. Following that survey the National Children’s Advisory Council (NCAC) was requested to advise on the development of a youth cafe´ model. Research was carried out by the National University of Ireland Galway (NUIG) and a draft report has been forwarded to me for my consideration. This work will ensure that funding is targeted and co-ordinated most effectively on a model or models of youth cafe´s which meet the needs of young people themselves. It will also ensure that any funding that may be available will augment without displacing existing inter-agency resources. The NUIG has also been requested to prepare a toolkit and guide to support groups setting up youth cafe´s. This will be a “how to” guide which will deal with issues such as guiding principles, practical operational matters and provide advice and tips on the day to day management and ongoing development of a cafe´ as well as setting up cafes. I intend to launch the NUI Galway Youth Cafe´ report and the toolkit and guide as part of advancing the youth cafe´ programme in the near future.

Hospital Accommodation. 119. Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister for Health and Children when it is proposed to submit the application for planning permission for the new 50-bed unit at St. Patrick’s Hospital, Waterford; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12451/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Deputy Ma´ire Hoctor): As this is a service matter it has been referred to the Health Service Executive for direct reply.

Health Services. 120. Deputy James Reilly asked the Minister for Health and Children the reason a child (details supplied) in County Dublin who has been assessed by the Health Service Executive

830 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers orthodontic services as requiring treatment in a 5A category in December 2008 and was initially told the waiting list was 12 to 18 months has now been advised that the waiting list is three years; if regular check ups will be considered to assess whether earlier intervention may be necessary; her plans to address the lengthening waiting lists for these services; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12473/09]

Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Mary Harney): As this is a service matter it has been referred to the HSE for direct reply.

121. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Health and Children the amount spent annually by the health promotion unit in her Department and the Health Service Executive on underage drinking awareness; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12499/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Deputy Mary Wallace): As this is a service matter, it has been referred to the Health Service Executive for direct reply.

Hospital Accommodation. 122. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Health and Children the extent to which all ward and bed space or other units at Peamont Hospital, Newtown, County Dublin are occupied; the nature of the occupancy; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12513/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Deputy Ma´ire Hoctor): As this is a service matter it has been referred to the Health Service Executive for direct reply.

Hospital Services. 123. Deputy Noel J. Coonan asked the Minister for Health and Children her plans for the reconfiguration of hospital services in a hospital (details supplied) in County Tipperary taking into consideration the lack of funding for the project; if the extra paramedics, ambulances, hospital staff and other necessary infrastructure are in place for the proposed changeover of facilities; if not, when they will be put in place; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12612/09]

Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Mary Harney): The HSE reconfiguration plans for the HSE Mid West region are informed by the recently published Teamwork Report. The Report highlighted the need for changes to be made in the provision and organisation of acute hospital services across the region as it found services are too fragmented, carry increased risks for patients and staff and are not sustainable in their present form. The HSE has been engaged in a consultation process with key stakeholders as it formulates detailed plans in relation to emergency care, critical care and surgical services in the region. The HSE has identified the enhancement of emergency ambulance services as an essential element of the new service delivery arrangements for the Mid West. Protocols are already in place to ensure that all trauma cases will be brought directly to the major tertiary centre rather than the local hospital. Appropriate protocols in relation to paediatric and obstetric emergencies have been developed and agreed. Plans are underway to introduce a 24-hour Advanced Paramedic service in Clare and North Tipperary and to enhance the level of ambulance cover in these areas. I am satisfied that the measures being taken by the HSE are necessary and appropriate in order to ensure the provision of safe and effective health services to the people of the Mid

831 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Mary Harney.] West region. My Department has asked the HSE to respond directly to the Deputy in relation to the detailed operational issues raised.

124. Deputy Noel J. Coonan asked the Minister for Health and Children the reason a CT scanner in a hospital (details supplied) in County Tipperary is not operating; when she plans to have the machine operating; the length of time the scanner has been lying idle; the cost of same to the Health Service Executive or hospital; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12613/09]

Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Mary Harney): As this is a service matter, it has been referred to the HSE for direct reply.

Park and Ride Facilities. 125. Deputy Ciara´n Cuffe asked the Minister for Transport the amount of funding available from his Department to fund park and ride projects in the greater Dublin area and elsewhere; the organisational arrangements surrounding same; the public transport providers involved; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12292/09]

Minister for Transport (Deputy Noel Dempsey): Under Transport 21, funding is available for the development of park and ride facilities by Iarnro´ dE´ ireann, by the RPA, and by Local Authorities in the GDA and the regional cities, either as stand-alone projects or as part of larger rail based investments. Iarnro´ dE´ ireann has begun a network-wide programme of expanding or developing new car parks, with the assistance of Exchequer funding. Under Transport 21 car parks have opened/been extended at eight train stations, namely Leixlip Louisa Bridge, Mallow, Ennis, Tullamore, Arklow, Limerick, Hazelhatch and Gormanston, resulting in over 1,350 extra car parking spaces. New car parks are also due to open over the next eighteen months at Portmarnock, Newbridge, Rush and Lusk, Donabate, Laytown, Portarlington, Carlow, Wicklow, Gorey and Limerick Junction over the next year. To date Exchequer funding of \21 million has been allocated for the car park extension programme. The Park and Ride sites associated with the proposed Luas and Metro lines in Transport 21 are determined by the RPA when individual Railway Order applications are submitted for the various lines. No specific figures are available for Luas sites as Park and Ride site costs are included in overall project budgets. Funding is also available for bus-based Park and Ride facilities provided by local authorities. My Department expects to receive proposals for the development of Park and Ride from local authorities in the Greater Dublin Area in the coming weeks. In the context of the current fiscal situation, my Department has been informed by the Department of Finance that no contractual commitment of any kind can now be entered into without Department of Finance approval. Sanction for funding for Park and Ride facilities will be considered in the context of any funding approval from the Department of Finance and the Exchequer allocation available to my Department, in these difficult economic circumstances, following the supplementary Budget in April 2009.

Driving Tests. 126. Deputy Mary Alexandra White asked the Minister for Transport if he will continue with plans to open a driving testing centre on Main Street, Blanchardstown, Dublin 15. [12445/09]

832 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Noel Ahern): Under the Road Safety Authority Act 2006 (Conferral of Functions) Order 2006 (S.I. No. 477 of 2006) this is a matter for the Road Safety Authority.

Light Rail Project. 127. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister for Transport the number of public servants, external consultants or other staff employed on a full or part-time basis on the metro north project; the amount of funding that has been allocated for the delivery of this project in 2009 and 2010 respectively; when the tendering process is scheduled to be completed; when the construction phase is scheduled to begin and to be completed; if this project is to be progressed on a public private partnership basis; if the cost of the project is thus expected to be spread over a period of 15 to 40 years; if it is envisaged that the PPP will be conducted on a design build finance operate basis, an operate and maintain basis or some other basis; the payment options being explored for this PPP; the approximate cost of this project and the approximate annual cost of this project over the period 2010 to 2020; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12462/09]

Minister for Transport (Deputy Noel Dempsey): The Metro North project is being procured by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) as a PPP on the Design, Build, Finance and Maintain model with a separate Operator contract. In January last year, the Government approved the funding structure for the Metro North PPP, including an Exchequer provision for advance works ahead of the main PPP contract and a capital contribution during construction. The first round of tenders for this PPP contract were submitted on 27th February 2009 and these tenders are now being evaluated by the RPA. As I have said previously, I am not in a position to give any information in relation to the budget for this project, or the nature or duration of the payment options, in advance of the completion of the PPP process. The publication of such commercially sensitive information prior to the completion of the competitive procurement process would prejudice the State’s capacity to derive maximum value for money in respect of this project. The start and completion dates of Transport 21 projects, which have not yet commenced, will be determined by the outcome of the statutory approval and procurement processes and the funding allocation available during the current difficult economic climate. The provision of increased capacity will be a key consideration in determining public transport investment priorities in the period ahead. In that context, Metro North and DART underground are particularly important rail investments as they form a core part of the planned integrated public transport network for the Greater Dublin Area envisaged by Transport 21. The Exchequer capital amount currently allocated from my Department’s Estimate for 2009 in respect of Metro North is \60m. The Oral Hearing before An Bo´ rd Pleana´la on the railway order application for Metro North is scheduled to commence on 1 April and the Board has revised its anticipated decision date on this application from March to September of this year. In these circumstances it is most unlikely that the enabling works which the RPA had planned to undertake (subject to securing an enforceable railway order) will commence in the current year. However, both the RPA and my Department will keep the matter under review including any necessary adjustments to the Exchequer allocation for the project in the current year. The allocation for Metro North for next year will be decided in the context of the Estimates for 2010. The allocation of staff or consultancy resources by agencies, such as the Railway Procurement Agency, is a matter for the agencies themselves and I do not have any function in the matter.

833 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Noel Dempsey.]

In my Department staff are allocated to projects on a divisional basis and are assigned to tasks on a flexible basis according to work priorities. Booz and Co., Consultants are employed by my Department to assess the quality and robust- ness of project development and implementation of selected Transport 21 projects, including Metro North, with regard to compliance with the appraisal and procurement guidelines and to give advice on the financial, economic and technical aspects of the Transport 21 Capital Investment Programme.

128. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister for Transport the number of public servants, external consultants or other staff employed on a full or part-time basis on the metro west project; the amount of funding that has been allocated for the delivery of this project in 2009 and 2010 respectively; when the tendering process is scheduled to be completed; when the construction phase is scheduled to begin and to be completed; if this project is to be progressed on a public private partnership basis; if the cost of the project is thus expected to be spread over a period of 15 to 40 years; if it is envisaged that the PPP will be conducted on a design build finance operate basis, and operate and maintain basis or some other basis; the payment options being explored by the PPP; the approximate cost of the project and the approximate annual cost of this project over the period 2010 to 2020; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12463/09]

Minister for Transport (Deputy Noel Dempsey): The Metro West project will be procured by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) as a PPP on the Design, Build, Finance and Maintain model with a separate Operator contract. As I have said previously, I am not in a position to give any information in relation to the budget for this project, or the nature or duration of the payment options, in advance of the completion of the PPP process. The publication of such commercially sensitive information prior to the completion of the competitive procurement process would prejudice the State’s capacity to derive maximum value for money in respect of this project. The start and completion dates of Transport 21 projects, which have not yet commenced, will be determined by the outcome of the statutory approval and procurement processes and the funding allocation available during the current difficult economic climate. The Exchequer capital amount currently allocated from my Department’s Estimate for 2009 in respect of Metro West is \10m. This provision is to facilitate progress on the planning and design of the project and preparations for an application to An Bo´ rd Pleana´la for a railway order. The allocation for this project for next year will be decided in the context of the Estimates for 2010. The allocation of staff or consultancy resources by agencies, such as the Railway Procurement Agency, is a matter for the agencies themselves and I do not have any function in the matter. In my Department staff are allocated to projects on a divisional basis and are assigned to tasks on a flexible basis according to work priorities. Booz and Co., Consultants are employed by my Department to assess the quality and robust- ness of project development and implementation of selected Transport 21 projects, including Metro North, with regard to compliance with the appraisal and procurement guidelines and to give advice on the financial, economic and technical aspects of the Transport 21 Capital Investment Programme.

834 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

129. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister for Transport the number of public servants, external consultants or other staff currently employed on a full time or part-time basis on the DART underground project; the amount of funding that has been allocated for the delivery of this project in 2009 and 2010 respectively; when the tendering process is scheduled to be completed; when the construction phase is scheduled to begin and to be completed; if this project is to be progressed on a public private partnership basis; if the cost of the project is thus expected to be spread over a period of 15 to 40 years; if it is envisaged that the PPP will be conducted on a design build finance operate basis, an operate and maintain basis or some other basis; the payment options being explored for this PPP; the approximate cost of this project and the approximate annual cost of this project over the period 2010 to 2020; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12464/09]

Minister for Transport (Deputy Noel Dempsey): It is intended to procure the DART Under- ground mainly as a Public Private Partnership (PPP) on the Design, Build, Finance and Main- tain model. Issues relating to the planning and design of the DART Underground come under the remit of the CIE Group. Irish Rail will operate the rail services. CIE anticipates that it will lodge an application for a Railway Order for the DART Underground with An Bo´ rd Pleana´la later this year. Subject to the outcome of this process, construction works are expected to commence in late 2010 with a completion date of end 2015. As I have said previously, I am not in a position to give any information in relation to the budget for this project, or the nature or duration of the payment options, in advance of the completion of the PPP process. The publication of such commercially sensitive information prior to the completion of the competitive procurement process would prejudice the State’s capacity to derive maximum value for money in respect of this project. The start and completion dates of Transport 21 projects, which have not yet commenced, will be determined by the outcome of the statutory approval and procurement processes and the funding allocation available during the current difficult economic climate. The provision of increased capacity will be a key consideration in determining public transport investment priorities in the period ahead. In that context, the DART Underground and Metro North, are particularly important rail investments as they form a core part of the planned integrated public transport network for the Greater Dublin Area envisaged by Transport 21. The Exchequer capital amount currently allocated from my Department’s Estimate for 2009 in respect of the DART Underground is \23m. This provision is to facilitate progress on the planning and design of the project and preparations for an application to An Bo´ rd Pleana´la for a railway order. The allocation for next year for the DART Underground will be decided in the context of the Estimates for 2010. The allocation of staff or consultancy resources by agencies, such as the Railway Procurement Agency, is a matter for the agencies themselves and I do not have any function in the matter. In my Department staff are allocated to projects on a divisional basis and are assigned to tasks on a flexible basis according to work priorities. Booz and Co., Consultants are employed by my Department to assess the quality and robust- ness of project development and implementation of selected Transport 21 projects, including Metro North, with regard to compliance with the appraisal and procurement guidelines and to give advice on the financial, economic and technical aspects of the Transport 21 Capital Investment Programme.

Pension Provisions. 130. Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall asked the Minister for Transport the latest actuarial assessment

835 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall.] of the common pension scheme for Aer Lingus, the Dublin Airport Authority and a company (details supplied). [12477/09]

Minister for Transport (Deputy Noel Dempsey): The Irish Airlines (General Employees) Superannuation Scheme is a multi-employer scheme in which the Dublin Airport Authority, Aer Lingus and SR Technics participate. Pension entitlements under this scheme are primarily matters for the Trustees, the members of the scheme and the companies participating in the scheme. The Scheme’s actuary carries out an actuarial valuation generally every three years. I understand that at the date of the most recent valuation in March 2008, the scheme itself was not in deficit.

Departmental Agencies. 131. Deputy Pat Rabbitte asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when he proposes to publish the Deloitte & Touche report on the Equality Authority; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12389/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): The position remains, as indicated in my reply to Questions Nos. 113, 88 and 51 of 25 February 2009, that the Value for Money review of the Equality Authority has not yet concluded. The decision on publication of the report will be taken in due course.

Visa Applications. 132. Deputy Martin Ferris asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the status of visa applications in respect of persons (details supplied); and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12398/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I wish to advise that the visa application reference numbers supplied by the Deputy refer to three separate individuals who are not related wishing to join their parents in Ireland. The visa applications referred to were received in the Visa Office, Beijing on 25 April 2008. All were applications to join Irish resident parents by their adult children. Following consideration by a Visa Officer they were refused on 30 December, 2008 as it is not the general policy to grant a visa to dependant family members over the age of 18 to permanently join persons granted residency/residing in the State. The applicants lodged appeals on the 2 February 2009. The decisions of the Visa Officer were upheld by the Appeals Officer on 24 February 2009. At first instance and on appeal the applicant’s cases were fully examined. However, there were no compelling grounds shown as to why an exception to the general policy should be made.

Garda Operations. 133. Deputy Charlie O’Connor asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will seek from the Garda authorities confirmation of the number of warrants in respect of addresses in Dublin South-West currently held for execution in Garda stations serving the area in Dublin South-West; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12402/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I am informed by the Garda Authorities that on 23 March, 2009 there were 26,365 outstanding warrants where

836 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers the address of the defendant is in the Garda Divisions of Dublin Metropolitan Region West and Dublin Metropolitan Region South. It should also be borne in mind that the vast majority of outstanding warrants relate to unpaid fines for minor infractions of the law and not convic- tions arising from violent crime. Given the enormous transaction level in the District Courts, it is inevitable that, at any given time, there will be a significant number of warrants awaiting execution. I am assured by the Garda authorities that An Garda Sı´ocha´na give priority to the execution of warrants against those whom they believe to be involved in serious crime. I am further informed that the Garda authorities are committed to strengthening the warrants enforcement process. The issue of the execution of warrants has been raised by the Garda Commissioner with each Regional Assistant Commissioner and a range of measures, aimed at reducing the number of warrants on hand, have been identified and are being implemented. These measures include the re-assignment of additional Gardaı´ to this function and the appointment of Inspectors with responsibility for execution of outstanding warrants. The position is being closely monitored by senior Garda management and consideration will be given, at an organisational level, to introducing further measures to address the issue if necessary. In addition, I intend to seek Government approval for a Fines Bill which will provide for the payment of fines by instalment and an improved means of assessing the capacity of a person to pay a fine. As so many warrants relate to financial penalties, these proposals should result in a smaller number of warrants being issued and so reduce pressure on the system.

Residency Permits. 134. Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the progress made in the application submitted to the general immigration division on behalf of a person (details supplied). [12403/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): The position in relation to granting long term residency is as follows: persons who have been legally resident in the State for over five years on the basis of work permit/work authorisation/work visa conditions may apply to the Immigration Division of my Department for a five year residency extension. In that context they may also apply to be exempt from employment permit requirements. The dependants of the aforementioned, who have been legally resident in the State for over five years may also apply for long term residency. This particular long term permission does not grant an exemption from employment permit requirements to any such dependants. While applications for long term residency are under consideration, the person concerned should ensure that their permission to remain in the State is kept up to date. An application for long term residency from the person referred to by the Deputy was received in February 2008. I understand that applications received in June 2007 are currently being dealt with. As soon as a decision is made on the case, the person concerned will be notified.

Irish Prison Service. 135. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of mobile phones seized in each of the prisons here in 2008 and to date in 2009; the measures put in place in each prison to prevent mobile phone use by prisoners; the categories of visitor and staff in each prison permitted to enter the prison with mobile phones on their person; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12413/09]

837 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): Details of mobile phone seizures for 2008 and recent figures for 2009 are set out in the following table.

Mobile Phone Seizures for 2008 and up to 20.03.09

Prison/Place of Detention 2008 2009 (to 20.03.09)

Arbour Hill 3 2 Castlerea 106 21 Cloverhill 128 10 Cork 64 8 Do´ chas Centre 55 14 Limerick 292 87 Loughan House 58 9 Midlands 136 13 Mountjoy (Male) 580 137 Portlaoise 41 19 Shelton Abbey 72 27 St. Patrick’s 160 25 Training Unit 120 17 Wheatfield 232 42

Total 2,047 431

It is important to note that a large percentage of these seizures are not directly from prisoners but are instead retrieved at entry point or before they get to the prisoner population. This is a direct consequence of newly introduced security measures. Mobile phones are viewed as highly valuable commodities which would assist in illegal activity and eliminating their supply is one of the major challenges facing prisons worldwide. The Irish Prison Service is dealing with this problem through a multifaceted approach which incorporates measures to prevent the smuggling of mobile phones into prisons, search and find operations aimed at locating and removing phones from within the prisons and the installation of mobile phone blocking technology. Airport style scanners and x-ray machines are now in operation at the entrances to all the relevant closed prisons. Cell and area searches for contraband such as mobile phones take place in all prisons on a daily basis. These include random, targeted and intelligence led searches. These searches have been particularly effective and local intelligence indicates that the availability of mobile phones has decreased across the prison system. No visitors are permitted to enter prisons while in possession of a mobile phone. Only Gov- ernor grades are permitted to enter prisons with a mobile phone on their person. The figures provided reflect the position following an audit and standardisation of procedures across the prisons estate for the recording of finds of this nature. Statistics pertaining to the discovery of sim cards, batteries and other mobile telephone components are not included.

Garda Operations. 136. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the revenue generated by the Garda Sı´ocha´na from on-the-spot fines in 2006, 2007 and 2008; the follow up for persons who do not pay; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12488/09] 838 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I am informed by the Garda authorities that the following table shows the revenue generated by An Garda Sı´ocha´na from on the spot fines and fixed charge notices in 2006, 2007 and 2008:

Year Revenue

2006 13,560,398 2007 21,863,968 2008 21,733,652

Legislation providing for the issue of fixed charge notices provides that paying the fixed charge is a discretionary option for the recipient of the fixed charge notice. During the initial period of 28 days from the date of the notice, payment is accepted at the fixed charge. During the subsequent period of 28 days, payment is accepted at the fixed charge plus 50%. If no payment is made, the recipient is liable for prosecution for the offence alleged. The matter then proceeds to be dealt with by the courts.

Joint Policing Committees. 137. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the costs involved in establishing a joint policing committee; the person to whom the costs are borne; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12489/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): Joint Policing Com- mittees are provided for in the Garda Sıóchańa Act 2005. Their purpose is to provide a forum where An Garda Sıóchańa and the local authority — the two organisations which make the most significant contribution to preventing and tackling crime in a specific area — can come together, with the participation of members of the Oireachtas and community and voluntary interests, on matters affecting the area. On 24 September last I launched, with my colleague the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the roll out of the Committees from the initial pilot phase in 29 local authority areas to all 114 local authority areas. An Garda Sıóchańa and the relevant local authorities are now establishing the Committees in accordance with new Guidelines in local authority areas where there are not yet Committees. The necessary steps will take a certain amount of time, since there will be a process to select the Committee members from the local authority, the Oireachtas and the community and voluntary sector. Each agency involved is generally expected to meet the expenses arising for itself in establishing and operating the Committees from within its own budget.

Garda Remuneration. 138. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the costs associated with becoming a community garda; the salary of a community garda; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12490/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I am informed by the Garda authorities that a Garda employed in a role of community Garda receives his or her normal salary. There is no specific allowance applicable to the role of a Community Garda. 839 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Garda Reserve. 139. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of garda reservists in each quarter for the past year; the costs of the Garda Reserve in 2007 and 2008; the amount spent on advertising and administration in 2007 and 2008 and projected for 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12491/09] Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern):

No. Date

264 31 March 2008 258 30 June 2008 253 30 September 2008 330 31 December 2008

Expenditure of \154,736 was incurred in 2007 in respect of public information campaigns for recruitment to the Garda Reserve. I am awaiting details of the relevant figure for 2008 and I will communicate with the Deputy in this matter. At this stage it is not possible to provide an estimate for the projected expenditure for 2009. Administrative costs arising in connection with the Garda Reserve are met from the general provisions of the Garda Vote and separate figures for this expenditure are not available.

Garda Deployment. 140. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when he expects the Garda Inspectorate to publish the report on garda rostering; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12492/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I understand that work on the Inspectorate’s report on resource allocation, which will address Garda rostering, is at an advanced stage and I expect to receive it in the near future.

141. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of staff in County Mayo who input data into the PULSE system; the number and rank of gardaı´ who input this data; the number of civilians who input this data; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12493/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I presume that the Deputy is referring to the Garda Information Service Centre in Castlebar. I am informed by the Garda Commissioner that the personnel strength of that Centre as at 28 February 2009, the latest date for which figures are readily available, was 209. This comprises of 1 Garda Inspector, 3 Garda Sergeants and 205 civilian staff.

Garda Remuneration. 142. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the annual salary of a juvenile liaison officer; the associated costs of such a post; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12494/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I am informed by the Garda authorities that Gardaı´ working in the area of Juvenile Liaison receive an allowance of \30.90 per week and a plain clothes allowance of \12.21 per week in addition to the normal Garda salary payable in respect of their rank and salary point. 840 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Juvenile Liaison Service. 143. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the annual cost since 2004 to date in 2009 of the juvenile liaison programme; the breakdown of these costs; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12495/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Barry Andrews): My colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, has already responded to your Parliamentary Question today (No. 142) in relation to the salary and associated costs of a Garda Juvenile Liaison Officer. In these circumstances, I assume that, in referring to the “juvenile liaison programme”,the deputy is seeking the other costs associated with the Garda Diversion Programme, for example the cost of Garda Youth Diversion Projects. The Garda Diversion Programme operates in accordance with Part 4 of the Children Act 2001, as amended, and under the general superintendence and control of the Garda Com- missioner. The aim of the Diversion Programme is to deal with young people who offend, by way of administering a formal or informal caution, thus diverting the offender away from the courts and minimising the likelihood of further offending. The programme embraces, whenever possible, the principles of restorative justice and, at all times, it pays the highest regard to the needs of the victims. The programme has proven to be highly successful in diverting young persons away from crime by offering guidance and support to the young people and their families. The Irish Youth Justice Service fund a restorative justice project for the Garda Diversion Programme. This is used to pay for restorative justice training for JLOs, the publication of the annual report of the committee to monitor the effectiveness of the diversion programme and ancillary costs associated with restorative justice events. Funding for this project for the three years 2006 -2008 was \76,750, \150,000 and \108,000 respectively. The 2009 allocation has been provisionally set at \150,000. However, there has been no drawn down on this year’s allocation to date. Garda Youth Diversion Projects, which are funded by the Irish Youth Justice Service, work separately to but in tandem with the Diversion Programme. They are a crime prevention initiative designed to engage with young people aged 12-17 years of age who have been identified as being at risk of involvement in criminal or anti-social behaviour. Each project is managed by a multi-agency and community based committee, which is responsible for the strategic direction of the project. Garda Youth Diversion Projects were first introduced in 1991 and there are currently 100 Garda Youth Diversion Projects operating in various locations throughout the country. The projects undertake a series of programmes and activities which are aimed at changing behaviours, attitudes and lifestyles of project participants to bring about positive change and learning outcomes. The programmes offer opportunities for education, employment training, sport, and other activities while providing a structured environment to add stability and support to a young person’s life. This work is primarily carried out by a project coordinator/youth worker, who operates under the guidance of a project/management committee. These projects are managed by committees comprising representatives for An Garda Sı´ocha´na, the management company or youth organisation and representatives from the Probation Service and other local agencies, community groups, schools, etc. The Garda Office for Children and Youth Affairs coordinates the administration of these projects. Funding for the Garda Youth Diversion Projects for each year since 2004 is broken down as follows:

841 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Barry Andrews.]

Year No. of Projects Funding

2004 63 4,904,656 2005 63 5,182,798 2006 82 6,423,747 2007 100 7,270,141 2008 100 7,996,223 2009 to date 100 2,166,481

The total amount of funding provisionally allocated to the GYDPs in 2009 amounts to \8,666,000. In addition to the funding outlined above funding to the amount of \1,046,697.09 was provided in 2008 to the Garda Youth Diversion Projects under the European Social Fund in order to improve the employability of the project participants. This ESF-supported programme within the Garda Youth Diversion Projects has been provisionally allocated funding of \3,850,000 in 2009.

Garda Deployment. 144. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the progress of the establishment of regional armed response teams; the approximate cost of such a team annually; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12496/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I am informed by the Garda authorities that the establishment of Regional Armed Response Units was commenced, on a pilot basis, in the Southern Region on 3rd September, 2008. Recruitment is progressing for the roll-out of Armed Response Units in the Eastern and Western Region at present. I am further informed that the annual costs associated with running these units is not yet available as they are still at the establishment and roll-out stages.

Courts Service. 145. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform further to Parliamentary Questions Nos. 649 and 329 of 27 January 2009, if he will provide details of the costings of the drugs court on an annual basis as per the previous request; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12497/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I can inform the Deputy that the requested information issued to him on the 24 March 2009.

Probation and Welfare Service. 146. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the annual allocation to the Probation Service since 2003 to date in 2009; the extension of services that have occurred within the service since 2003; the reason for the cut in services in budget 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12498/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I can inform the Deputy that the annual allocation to the Probation Service since 2003 to 2008 is as follows: 842 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Year Budget Allocation

2003 40,614 2004 39,966 2005 44,939 2006 49,719 2007 59,323 2008 54,019* *It should be noted that in January, 2008 \10.020m of the Probation Service budget was transferred to the Irish Youth Justice service following the transfer of responsibility for the monitoring of Juvenile Offending Initiatives which heretofore fell the Probation Service.

As the 2009 estimates have not yet been finalised information in respect of the 2009 figure is not yet available.

Extension of Services I wish to advise the Deputy that in more recent years the Probation Service has been going through a process of change and restructuring. This has focused on the creation of a new senior management structure followed by an administrative review of the Service to inform strategic decisions on the allocation of resources on an nationwide basis. In addition, Strategy Statements and Strategic Work Plans for 2006/2007 and 2008/2009 were developed to underpin the re- focussing of the work of the Probation Service so that the clear focus of the work of the Service continues to be on how to best meet the needs of its core client group. I am glad to tell the Deputy that following a Government decision of April, 2007 the Pro- bation Service was in a position to recruit 71 additional staff — 53 persons at professional level and 18 at administrative levels, including a professional accountant. This allocation of significant additional resources has positioned the Service to work in a coordinated way with the other agencies of the criminal justice system with the aim of enhancing public safety I should also mention two other significant developments within the Service:

• ‘high risk offender’ specialist team to work with key agencies within the Criminal Justice System to ensure better public protection has been established; and

• A Young Persons’ Probation Division (YPP) with dedicated resources which cater solely, on a national basis, for offending children under 18 years has been established to work closely with the Irish Youth Justice Service.

Probation Service Funded Community Projects As the Deputy will be aware my Department, through the Probation Service, provides funding on an annual basis to community projects.This year we plan to provide funding to over 50 community based projects. These funded projects deliver programmes and services in the area of addiction, accommodation, work preparation, vocational training, literacy, counselling etc. In recent years my Department and the Service have been working to ensure that the range of interventions delivered at project level are the most appropriate for the client group and to that end a funding agreement was introduced in 2007 which underpins the range of service(s) to be delivered upon in any one funding year.

843 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Dermot Ahern.]

I should also say that a Value for Money and Policy Review of Projects funded through the Probation Service was completed in 2008 and published on my Department’s website. The Probation Service is in the process of implementing the recommendations of that review.

Community Service Scheme The Deputy might also like to be aware of an ongoing Value for Money and Policy Review by an independent evaluator of the operation of the Community Service Scheme. This report is close to finalisation and will inform how the scheme can be utilised to its best effect.

Asylum Support Services. 147. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if accommodation and medical assistance will be offered in the case of a person (details supplied) in County Limerick; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12514/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): The Reception and Integration Agency (RIA) is responsible for the accommodation of asylum seekers in accordance with the Government policy of direct provision and dispersal. The person referred to in the details supplied, who is a male, is currently being provided with accommodation by the RIA at Mount Trenchard accommodation centre, County Limerick. In relation to requests based on this person’s medical condition, the matter was considered by the RIA and no grounds for a transfer to self-catering accommodation were found. Notwithstanding this, the RIA has separately considered the broader issues of the case and is prepared to make an offer of alternative accommodation to this person within direct provision. A formal offer in relation to that will issue this week.

Residency Permits. 148. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when a stamp four will be updated in the case of a person (details supplied) in County Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12515/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I refer the Deputy to my reply to Parliamentary Question 172 for answer on 12 March, 2009. I am informed that correspondence from the person concerned has not yet been received in my Department. Any such correspondence, when received, will be assessed by the relevant officials, and the person in question will be contacted directly and notified of any decisions made regarding his status in the State.

Deportation Orders. 149. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the position in regard to residency status in the name of a person (details supplied) in Dublin 15; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12516/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I refer the Deputy to my detailed Reply to his Parliamentary Question, No. 229 of Thursday 15 May 2008, in this matter. The position in the State of the person concerned is as set out in that Reply.

844 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Residency Permits. 150. Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when an application for long-term residency by a person (details supplied) in County Westmeath will be dealt with; if same will be progressed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12607/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): The position in relation to granting long term residency is as follows: persons who have been legally resident in the State for over five years on the basis of work permit/work authorisation/work visa conditions may apply to the Immigration Division of my Department for a five year residency extension. In that context they may also apply to be exempt from employment permit requirements. The dependants of the aforementioned, who have been legally resident in the State for over five years may also apply for long term residency. This particular long term permission does not grant an exemption from employment permit requirements to any such dependants. While applications for long term residency are under consideration, the person concerned should ensure that their permission to remain in the State is kept up to date. An application for long term residency from the person referred to by the Deputy was received in October 2007. I understand that applications received in June 2007 are currently being dealt with. As soon as a decision is made on the case, the person concerned will be notified.

Human Rights Issues. 151. Deputy Alan Shatter asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs the action taken to date by him at European level and in the United Nations with regard to the expulsion by Sudan of humanitarian non-governmental organisations; his views on whether what already is a humanitarian emergency is rapidly becoming a humanitarian disaster in which millions of lives are at stake; the position with regard to the people of Darfur; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12444/09]

Minister for Foreign Affairs (Deputy Michea´l Martin): The International Criminal Court (ICC) announced on 4 March that it would issue a warrant for the arrest of the Sudanese President, Omar al-Bashir, on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity in connection with the Darfur conflict. Ireland and the EU have expressed our support for the work the ICC is doing. There has, however, been a strong political reaction in Sudan to the ICC warrant against President Bashir. The Government of Sudan immediately announced its intention to expel thirteen international humanitarian organisations from Darfur. The thirteen agencies concerned account for 40% of all aid in Sudan; between them, they provide food to 1 million people; safe water to a similar number; and basic health care to 1.5 million people. The impact of the Government’s actions is not yet fully apparent, since many NGOs had built up stocks of supplies in Darfur — including food, and fuel to keep water pumps going. These stocks are rapidly running down, and there is an urgent need to ensure that people do not suffer as a result. A joint UN/Sudan mission has been dispatched to Darfur to assess the humanitarian situation. However, it will not be possible in any reasonable time frame for the UN, the Government and local NGOs to replace the capacity and expertise provided by the expelled NGOs over an extended period of time. As a result of the ongoing violence, we are continuing to see new displacements in Darfur and rising tensions in camps for Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs). Almost everywhere in

845 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Michea´l Martin.] Darfur, IDP settlements are currently overstretched. A further 263,000 refugees remain across the international border in Chad, though so far there has not been substantial new population movement. Irish troops, now deployed as part of the UN’s MINURCAT mission, are providing wide-area security around the refugee settlements in Chad. I strongly believe that the EU should make every effort to reverse the expulsions of NGOs from Sudan. On 9 March, the EU condemned the Sudanese Government’s decision. EU Foreign Ministers discussed the issue at the I strongly believe that the EU should make every effort to reverse the expulsions of NGOs from Sudan. On 9 March, the EU condemned the Sudanese Government’s decision. EU Foreign Ministers discussed the issue at the General Affairs and External Relations Council on 16 March, and called on the Government of Sudan to reconsider urgently the decision to expel these organisations and to ensure that the most vulnerable people in Sudan are guaranteed humanitarian assistance. The EU position is being emphasised to regional and international partners with potential influence on the Sudanese Government. Ireland has been very active in working to alleviate the suffering of those affected by the conflict in Darfur. Since 2006, Irish Aid funding to Sudan has amounted to over \50 million. This funding has been provided to non-governmental organisations (NGOs), to UN agencies working in South Sudan and Darfur and to the UN administered Sudan Common Humanitarian Fund. Among the many well-respected international NGOs expelled from Sudan were some which had received Irish Aid funding. We will be reviewing with those organisations how best to proceed. My priority now is to safeguard the position of those Irish NGOs which are continuing to do very important work in Sudan.

Sports Funding. 152. Deputy Dan Neville asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism if he will make a statement on a matter (details supplied). [12409/09]

Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Deputy Martin Cullen): The funding of the Gaelic players grant schemes is a matter for the Irish Sports Council (ISC) in the context of the distribution of its budget for 2009. In light of the current economic constraints and the reduction in the ISC’s allocation of funding in the 2009 Estimates, I am having discussions with the Council on optimum funding options, in order to maintain its existing programmes while building on recent progress. The future funding of the Gaelic players schemes is being considered in that context.

Tourism Industry. 153. Deputy Pat Breen asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism his views on the decline in tourism from the US to Ireland; the implications of this decline for the mid-west region; his plans to supplement the tourism budget to address this decline; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12411/09]

Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Deputy Martin Cullen): The downturn in the world economy has significantly affected tourism and travel globally and travel to Ireland has been no exception. The economic difficulties in the United States are clearly having a negative impact on the affordability of overseas travel for many American consumers and the situation has been exacerbated by currency fluctuations. While this resulted in a reduction in the number of visitors to Ireland in 2008 compared to 2007, it should be noted that over one million visitors from North America still came to Ireland in 2008.

846 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

While it is obviously very early days, I was pleased to note that the first monthly overseas visitor figures for 2009, which were published by the Central Statistics Office last week, show that visitors from the United States for the month of January showed a slight increase on the corresponding month of 2008. Within the overall funding for front-line marketing of Ireland as a tourist destination overseas, the Government allocated \3m for the “Discover Ireland’s Wonderful West” campaign in 2008. Funding for the campaign was again provided in 2009, in addition to separate funding of over \3 million for regional marketing overseas. The campaign focuses on ease of direct access from many gateway cities, the good value fares and inclusive packages available as well as showcasing a range of offers from local industry. Tourism Ireland is continuing to work closely with Fa´ilte Ireland, Shannon Airport, Shannon Development, and the local tourism industry in the mid-west to vigorously promote the Shannon region through cooperative marketing campaigns. I understand that their campaign has generally been very well received to date. I remain confident that the tourism sector has the capacity to manage the current challenges and I know that the tourism agencies are doing all they can to ensure that we see a return to growth in overseas visitor numbers as soon as possible.

Community Development. 154. Deputy Michael Ring asked the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs the cost of each office to his Department in tabular form in respect of a company (details supplied). [12485/09]

155. Deputy Michael Ring asked the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs the number of staff in each office, including the grade of staff, and the cost of those offices to his Department in tabular form in respect of a company (details supplied). [12486/09]

156. Deputy Michael Ring asked the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs the number of offices in operation for a company (details supplied) and the location at which they are placed in the county in tabular form. [12487/09]

Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy E´ amon O´ Cuı´v): I propose to take Questions Nos. 154 to 156, inclusive, together. The company in question is a private company, limited by guarantee, and is contracted to deliver a range of programmes and schemes on behalf of my Department and a number of other Departments and agencies. It is essentially a matter for each such company to decide where it should locate, its office arrangements, and HR matters and I have no function in this respect. In the circumstances, it would not be appropriate for me to provide the details requested. In any event, as I understand it, the company in question has yet to make final decisions in respect of a number of these matters. The contractual arrangements governing the programmes and schemes mentioned above entitle the company to certain administrative and other costs. However, but there are mechanisms in place within individual programmes to control such costs and to secure value for money service delivery.

Social Welfare Benefits. 157. Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the procedures

847 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Ro´ isı´n Shortall.] in place to ensure that the fuel allowance is no longer paid when a person is admitted to long- term nursing home care. [12378/09]

Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy Mary Hanafin): Fuel Allowance is paid to eligible people from the date they apply for the allowance. The majority of people apply when they are applying for a primary social welfare payment and the primary payment and fuel allowance are put into payment at the same time. The Department, when issuing award letters and other communications, advises the person that they must notify the Department of any changes in their circumstances, including a change of address. In general a person moving into long-term nursing or other institutional care notifies the Department of their change of address. The Department, as part of its ongoing control strategy, undertakes periodic reviews in order to determine customers’ continuing eligibility for pension. Letters issue to customers requesting them to confirm their ongoing entitlement to payment and to certify changes, if any, in their circumstances. Follow-up action is taken where no reply is received from the customer or where the letter is returned undelivered. I am committed to ensuring that social welfare payments are available to those who are entitled to them. I am also determined to ensure that abuse of the system or errors in payment are prevented and are dealt with effectively when detected.

158. Deputy Michael Ring asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs when a person (details supplied) in County Mayo will be approved jobseeker’s benefit. [12408/09]

Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy Mary Hanafin): The person concerned has been awarded jobseeker’s benefit with effect from 22 December, 2008. His current weekly rate of payment is \203.90. This payment includes an increase in respect of a qualified adult. A payment of \1,631.20, which included all arrears due, issued to him on 23 February, 2009. Under Social Welfare legislation decisions in relation to claims must be made by Deciding Officers and Appeals Officers. These officers are statutorily appointed and I have no role in regard to making such decisions.

Social Welfare Code. 159. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if her attention has been drawn to the fact that some pensioners in receipt of the contributory State pension are in receipt of weekly payments of less than the amount of the non-contributory pension, as in the case of a person (details supplied) and for example those who have worked outside the Irish jurisdiction for a certain period of their working lives, even if they are in receipt of pension payments in respect of this period; if there are proposals to address this anomaly, particularly at an EU level; and the cost to the Exchequer on a full year basis of levelling these rates up to the non-contributory rate and the full contributory rate. [12415/09]

Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy Mary Hanafin): In order to qualify for the maximum rate of the state pension (contributory) a person must, amongst other qualifying conditions, achieve a yearly average of at least 48 contributions paid or credited on his/her social insurance record. Reduced pensions are paid to those with yearly averages as low as 10 contributions and arrangements are also in place for the payment of pro-rata pensions to those

848 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers with mixed rate insurance records or contributions from other EU member states or countries with which Ireland has a reciprocal agreement. The person concerned has a pension of \82.70 per week which comprises a pro-rata pension of \75.00 per week plus a living alone increase of \7.70 per week. This pension was calculated by taking the total number of contributions (Irish and UK) the person had paid over her working life and applying the average contributions test to arrive at the rate which would be paid if all contributions had been paid under the Irish social insurance system. The actual rate to be paid is determined by the proportion of Irish full rate contributions in the overall record. This is similar to the arrangement that applies when calculating pensions due under bilateral social security agreements or other pro-rata pensions. The formula used ensures that people receive a pension which reflects the proportion of Irish contributions contained in their overall contribution record. I understand that the person concerned also receives a contributory pension from the UK and that she does not wish to apply for the means-tested state pension (non-contributory) which is available to people who do not qualify for the contributory pension or who are on reduced rate contributory pensions. The cost of raising all reduced rate contributory pension payments to t he maximum state pension (non-contributory) rate is \547 million in a full year. To increase reduced rate payments up to the state pension (contributory) rate would cost \632 million in a full year.

Social Welfare Benefits. 160. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs her views on correspondence (details supplied). [12449/09]

Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy Mary Hanafin): The Carer’s Allowance scheme has been significantly improved in recent years and in Budget 2009, I continued this process. The rate of carer’s allowance for those aged 66 or over increased by \7to\239 per week and for those aged under 66 by \6.50 to \220.50 per week. These increases took effect from January 2009. Recipients of carer’s allowance are also eligible for household benefits, free travel and the respite care grant. Since 1997 weekly payment rates to carers have greatly increased, qualifying conditions for carer’s allowance have significantly eased, coverage of the scheme has been extended and new schemes such as carer’s benefit, half-rate carer’s allowance and the respite care grant have been introduced and extended. The means test for carer’s allowance has been significantly eased over the years, and is now one of the most generous means tests in the social welfare system, most notably with regard to spouse’s earnings. Since April 2008, the income disregard has been 332.50 per week for a single person and \665 per week for a couple. This means that a couple with two children can earn in the region of \37,200 and qualify for the maximum rate of Carer’s Allowance as well as the associated free travel and household benefits. A couple with an income in the region of \60,400 can still qualify for a minimum payment, as well as the associated free travel, household benefits package. These levels surpass the Towards 2016 commitment to ensure that those on average industrial earnings continue to qualify for a full carer’s allowance. From June 2005, the annual respite care grant was extended to all carers who are providing full time care to a person who needs such care, regardless of their income. The rate of the

849 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Mary Hanafin.] respite care grant has also been increased to \1,700 per year in respect of each care recipient since June 2008. In June 2006, the number of hours for which a person can engage in employment, self- employment, education or training and still be considered to be providing full time care for the purposes of carer’s allowance, carer’s benefit and the respite care grant was increased from 10 to 15 hours per week. It is estimated that combined expenditure on carer’s allowance, carer’s benefit, the respite care grant and half-rate carers will be \650 million in 2009.

161. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the annual cost to the Exchequer of the early childhood supplement for each year since its inception to date in 2009; the projected cost, ceteris paribus, to the Exchequer of the ECS for the years 2009, 2010 and 2011; the number of families availing of the ECS, broken down by the numbers inside Ireland and outside Ireland; the number of children covered by the ECS, broken down by the numbers inside Ireland and outside Ireland; the number of applications for the ECS in hand, broken down by the numbers inside Ireland and outside Ireland; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12466/09]

162. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the annual cost to the Exchequer of child benefit for each of the years since 2002 to date in 2009; the projected cost, ceteris paribus, to the Exchequer of child benefit for the years 2009, 2010, 2011; the number of families availing of child benefit broken down by the numbers inside Ireland and outside Ireland; the number of children covered by child benefit, broken down by the numbers inside Ireland and outside Ireland; the number of applications for child benefit in hand, broken down by the number inside Ireland and outside Ireland; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12467/09]

Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy Mary Hanafin): I propose to take Questions Nos. 161 and 162 together. The Early Childcare Supplement is administered by the Department of Social and Family Affairs on behalf of the Office of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. The cost of the Early Childcare supplement for each year since its inception in April 2006 was as follows:

Year \ Million

2006 292 2007 417 2008 477

The projected cost in 2009 is \340 million; expenditure to date in 2009 is \74m (no payment was made in January 2009, as payment is now monthly in arrears). The projected costs for 2010 and 2011 cannot yet be estimated with any degree of accuracy given the reduction in immigration and the increased outflow of EU and other workers in the current economic situation. The number of families availing of the ECS at March 2009 (children aged under 5.5 years) was 283,000 in respect of 379,513 children. Of these, approximately 2,850 families are currently paid under EU regulations for some 3,700 non-resident children. 850 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

The total number of Child Benefit claims on hand and not yet finalised is 3,500 for resident children and 6,500 for non-resident children, approximately 17,000 children in total. Of these approximately 30% are under 5 years of age. The annual cost of the Child Benefit scheme since 2002 is as follows:

Year \ Billion

2002 1.46 2003 1.66 2004 1.76 2005 1.89 2006 2.05 2007 2.23 2008 2.45

The projected cost of Child Benefit in 2009 is \2.53 Billion; expenditure to date in 2009 is some \617m. The number of families in payment at end February 2009 was 599,626, in respect of 1,150,153 children. Of these, 6,200 were claims paid under EU regulations in respect of some 10,500 non resident children. The projected costs for 2010 and 2011 cannot yet be estimated with any degree of accuracy given the reduction in immigration and the increased outflow of EU and other workers in the current economic situation.

163. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the maximum rent support payable in the case of a person (details supplied) in County Kildare; if an increase will be offered; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [12511/09]

Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy Mary Hanafin): Rent supplement is administered on behalf of the department by the community welfare service of the Health Service Executive as part of the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. The Executive has advised that the entitlement of the person concerned to rent supplement is as communicated to the Deputy on 12 March 2009.

Water and Sewerage Schemes. 164. Deputy Ciara´n Lynch asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government the financial supports his Department will make available to the local authority to undertake remedial works in view of the increase in demands being placed on the recently opened sewerage scheme in Donegal Town and in view of the odours and leaks that have occurred as a result. [12399/09]

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): The procurement, operation and management of public waste water treatment and collection systems are the responsibility of the relevant local authority. Regulation 3(b) of the European Communities (Waste Water Treatment) (Prevention of Odours and Noise) Regulations, 2005, requires local authorities to ensure that their waste water treatment plants are operated and maintained so as to avoid nuisance through odours. Regulation 4, in turn, obliges the EPA to ensure compliance with this statutory requirement. Where an odour issue arises, it is a matter for the local authority to resolve any relevant issues with suppliers, contractors or service providers, as appropriate. 851 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Departmental Schemes. 165. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government if he or his Department has given authorisation to county councils to receive applications under the green energy scheme which he has announced; if he or his officials advised county councils as to the standard form of application; if a budget line has been made available to the county councils in respect of 2009 and 2010; the budget allocation to each local authority for 2009 and 2010 respectively. [12465/09]

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy Michael Finneran): As part of a national programme for the “greening” of the social housing stock, a range of energy efficiency initiatives are being advanced, including a programme of Towards Carbon Neutral demonstration projects, insulation retrofitting projects that will inform future schemes, and a programme to improve the energy rating of dwellings due to be re-let and to advance overall energy efficiency in local authority apartment complexes. The funding to be made available for these purposes will be finalised following the publication of the Revised Estimates for Public Services 2009.

Water and Sewerage Schemes. 166. Deputy Dan Neville asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government when works will begin on the sewerage scheme for Hospital, County Limerick; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12470/09]

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): The combined Dromcollogher, Hospital, Pallasgreen and Bruff Sewerage Scheme is included for funding in my Department’s Water Services Investment Programme 2007-2009. Further consideration is being given to Limerick County Council’s Preliminary Report for the scheme following receipt of additional information from the Council in December 2008.

Fire Stations. 167. Deputy Noel J. Coonan asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government when an application for funding in respect of a new fire station facility (details supplied) in County Tipperary will be provided by his Department; the timeframe for the provision of the funding; the reason for the delay in providing funding; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12614/09]

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy Michael P. Kitt): The provision of funding for a fire station at Cloughjordan will be considered under future fire services capital programmes having regard to the overall availability of resources, the spread of existing facilities and the totality of demands of fire authorities for available funds. In autumn 2008, the fire authority indicated that improvement to the fire station at Templemore was their first priority and Cloughjordan was the second priority.

Telecommunications Services. 168. Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the methods he will use to satisfy himself that the upload, download and latency standards described by himself and the national broadband scheme contractors (details supplied) are being met; the moneys committed by him in 2009 and separately in 2010 for this purpose; the competent independent assessment body which will be used to ascertain the actual

852 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers performance on the NBS service; the date by which he will publish a report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12606/09]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): Under the terms of the National Broadband Scheme (NBS) contract, 3 Ireland has committed to defined service standards with respect to retail product speeds and contention ratio, customer interface, wholesale service, reporting and marketing. My Department, with the assistance of independent technical consultants, Analysis Mason Ltd, will actively monitor performance of the infrastructure, service availability, service delivery and customer experience as well as overall compliance with contractual obligations by 3 Ireland on a monthly basis throughout the contract term. Monitoring activities will involve random testing to assess and monitor the availability and coverage of the services in the NBS coverage areas. Upgrades of the network and its capacity are automatically triggered at contractually agreed levels of traffic to ensure that the quality of the broadband service is maintained and enhanced over the period of the contract. 3 Ireland is obliged to address any issues arising and the NBS contract imposes a service credit regime on 3 Ireland with significant consequences in the event of proven failure to meet the contractually binding service standards. The overall cost of technical, financial and commercial advisory services to support my Department in relation to the implementation and monitoring of the NBS contract over a 28 month period is expected to amount to \399,250 (exclusive of VAT), of which amounts of \175,000 and \80,000 are foreseen to be paid in 2009 and 2010 respectively. I do not propose to publish a report on performance by 3 Ireland under the NBS contract and no such report is provided for under the terms of the contract.

169. Deputy Noel J. Coonan asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the reason broadband is not available to persons (details supplied) in County Tipperary; when it will be made available; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12616/09]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): Broad- band service providers operate in a fully liberalised market, regulated, where appropriate, by the independent Commission for Communications Regulation, ComReg. Broadband services are available from competing service providers over multiple platforms, including DSL (telephone lines), cable, fixed wireless, mobile and satellite. I understand that broadband is available in Templemore, County Tipperary, from DSL, mobile and satellite service providers.

170. Deputy Noel J. Coonan asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the reason broadband is not available to a person (details supplied) in County Tipperary; when it will be made available; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12617/09]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): Broad- band service providers operate in a fully liberalised market, regulated, where appropriate, by the independent Commission for Communications Regulation, ComReg. Broadband services are available from competing service providers over multiple platforms, including DSL (telephone lines), cable, fixed wireless, mobile and satellite. I understand that broadband is available in Borrisoleigh, County Tipperary from DSL, wireless and satellite service providers.

853 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Grant Payments. 171. Deputy Tom Hayes asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when REP scheme payment will be made to a person (details supplied) in County Tipperary; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12295/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): REPS 4 is a measure under the current Rural Development Programme 2007-13 and is subject to EU Regulations which require detailed administrative checks on all applications to be completed before the first payments issue. The first payments for 2008 REPS 4 applications issued in the last week of January to those whose applications required no correction following the administrative checks. Further payments continue to be made as applications are cleared. Queries have arisen during the administrative checks on the plan of the person named and it is currently under further examination.

172. Deputy Paul Connaughton asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the reason a person (details supplied) in County Galway has not received their 2008 single farm payment; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12383/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): The person named established Single Payment Entitlements to the value of \2214.32 based on premia payments made during the reference period 2000-2002 but did not activate these entitlements in 2005 as he did not submit a Single Payment application form in that year. EU Regulations governing the Single Payment Scheme provide that un-activated entitlements are reverted to the National Reserve in 2005. The person named submitted a Single Payment application for the first time in 2008. He also submitted an application for an allocation of entitlements under Category B of the 2008 National Reserve. Category B caters for new entrants to farming who commenced farming after 31st December 2005 and who did not pursue any agricultural activity in his/her own name or at his/her own risk in the five years immediately preceding the commencement of the new agricultural activity. The person named did not qualify under the new entrant category of the National Reserve as Department records verify that he has been farming since 1998. As the person named does not hold Single Payment Entitlements he is not due payment under the 2008 Single Payment Scheme.

173. Deputy Paul Connaughton asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when a REP scheme payment will issue to a person (details supplied) in County Galway; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12385/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): Payment issued to the person named on 9 March 2009.

174. Deputy Paul Connaughton asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when a slatted house grant will issue to a person (details supplied) in County Galway; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12386/09]

854 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers deferred amount will be made to farmers whose Farm Waste Management grants have been partially deferred. This payment will be made in January 2011 along with the final instalment.

Farm Waste Management. 175. Deputy Andrew Doyle asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the action being taken to ensure that farmers affected by the failure of his Department to honour its contract with farmers under the terms of the farm waste management scheme do not have to pay additional interest accruing from extending short-term loans to long-term loans; the commitment which has been made by the banks in relation to interest payments due on loans that have to be extended due to the delay in payment by his Department; and if corrective action is being taken in his Department to ensure that such a breach of trust does not happen again. [12412/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): The arrangements for payment of grants under the Farm Waste Management Scheme on a phased basis have been confirmed with 40 per cent being paid this year as claims are approved. A further 40 per cent will be paid in early January 2010 and the remaining 20 per cent in January 2011. I have also announced that a special ex-gratia payment not exceeding 3.5 per cent of the value of the deferred amount will be made to farmers whose Farm Waste Management grants have been partially deferred. This payment will be made in January 2011 along with the final instalment. I do not accept that there has been a breach of trust in relation to the payment of grants under the Farm Waste Management Scheme, which has been the most successful on-farm investment scheme since our accession to the EU. The financial arrangements in respect of any loans taken out by farmers for the purposes of carrying out investments under the Farm Waste Management Scheme are entirely a matter between the individual farmers and financial institutions concerned.

Departmental Staff. 176. Deputy Seymour Crawford asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food further to Parliamentary Question No. 453 of 10 March 2009, when the district superintendent post will be filled to cover west Cavan, which is vacant since 10 November 2008 and is causing delays in payments for farm waste management and REP scheme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12417/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): A Department officer has been appointed in an acting capacity to this post.

Proposed Legislation. 177. Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food further to Parliamentary Question No. 5 of 22 November 2007, No. 123 of 1 July 2008, No. 34 of 30 October 2008 and No. 104 of 3 December 2008, the reason for the delay in publishing the Forestry Bill; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12424/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): Following a very comprehensive review of the Forestry Act 1946 and an extensive consultation process on current and proposed forestry legislation, the Government has recently approved the General Scheme of the Forestry Bill. This has been forwarded to the Office of the Parliamentary Coun- sel to the Government for drafting to commence. It is not possible at this stage to indicate a date for publication of the legislation in question.

855 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Grant Payments. 178. Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the amount that he expects his Department to owe to the farming sector in delayed payments by the end of 2009, the end of 2010, and end of 2011; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12425/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): As all payment claims received under the Farm Waste Management Scheme by my Department have not yet been processed to final payment stage, it is not possible at present to provide an estimate of the amounts involved in the phasing of payments to farmers under this Scheme.

179. Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if a premium of 3.5% to be paid to farmers in 2011 for the delayed payment of the farm waste management grants complies with the requirements of the Prompt Payments of Accounts Act, 1997 and the European Communities (Late Payment in Commercial Transactions) Regulation, 2002; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12426/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): The legal instruments referred to by the Deputy do not extend to the payment of grants to farmers under the Farm Waste Management Scheme.

Forestry Sector. 180. Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the implications for the forestry industry and Coillte Teo of Budget 2009 and the further Budget on 7 April 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12427/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): Almost \125 million was allocated to the forestry subhead in Budget 2009 which will allow for the operation of a number of forestry schemes in 2009. This substantial investment demonstrates the commitment of the Government to forestry in Ireland and recognises the importance of the forest industry in terms of its economic, environmental and social benefits. As regards Coillte Teoranta, it was established as a private commercial company under the Forestry Act 1988 and does not receive grant-in-aid from my Department. It is not possible to comment on potential implications of a Budget that will not be presented to the Da´il until 7 April 2009.

Common Fisheries Policy. 181. Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the steps he has taken to renegotiate Ireland’s fishery policy in the European Union; the progress made with Ireland’s European colleagues in these renegotiations; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12428/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): The Common Fisher- ies Policy (CFP) is the fisheries policy of the European Union which was first put in place in 1983 and has been subject to reviews every 10 years, the most recent was in 2002 and the next is formally scheduled for 2012. Work has already commenced in preparation for the review with the publication of a Commission Working Paper in September 2008 and the launch of a phase of analysis and consultation. The French Presidency also held an informal Fisheries meeting in September (on margins of the Fisheries Council) on the reform process. A public hearing of the Fisheries Committee of the European Parliament was held on the 10th February on the reform of the CFP, the highlight of which was a speech by Commissioner Borg. It is

856 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers clear from that speech that absolutely everything within the current framework of the CFP is open for discussion. The Commission are now expected to publish a Green Paper on the review which will be up for debate at the April Agriculture and Fisheries Ministerial Council. This will be followed by public consultation later in the year and a legislative proposal next year with a view to adoption in early 2012. I am committed to working closely with the Federation of Irish Fishermen, other stakeholders and other like minded Member States to strengthen the current policy for the betterment of fisheries.

Fisheries Protection. 182. Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food his plans to repeal the criminal sanctions against fishermen found to be in breach of regulations in the Sea Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Act, 2006; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12429/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): Since 1959 Ireland has applied its criminal law in relation to fisheries matters and, since our membership of the European Community, Ireland has applied the criminal law in the enforcement of fisheries policy. Successive Governments have applied the criminal law. We do this to protect fish stocks and to seek to avoid financial penalties being imposed on the State and the Irish tax payer. However, it should be noted that all sanctions for fisheries offences are purely financial in nature. The Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Act 2006 Act simply sets down the maximum financial fines that may be applied and it is a matter for a judge to determine the appropriate fine taking into account the specifics of each case. The Act also applies, for the first time, a scaled approach to maximum penalties for infringements by vessels whereby smaller vessels are liable to lower maximum fines. The possibility of introducing administrative sanctions was comprehensively considered at the time of the passage of the Sea Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Bill through the Oireachtas. The position taken by the Minister at the time was based on the legal advice from the Attorney General. In the case of most fisheries offences European Community regulations require that penalties must be deterrent and dissuasive and must involve depriving the wrongdoer of the benefit of his or her actions. The fines and forfeitures allowed for under the Act are, therefore, at a substantial level, and include, for example, the loss of the catch and fishing gear. The Attorney General advised that under the Irish legal system such penalties would be viewed as criminal in nature and therefore could only be administered by the courts by virtue of Articles 34, 37 and 38 of the Constitution. This position has been confirmed by the present Attorney-General. The European Commission recently introduced a draft new regulation intended to update and reform the EU Fisheries Control framework. This proposed regulation envisages facilitating a sanctions and penalty points system and allows for the application of administrative action or criminal proceedings in conformity with national law. In this regard there may be a possibility of introducing administrative sanctions and a penalty points system for Irish vessels under this proposal. Legal advice is being sought to determine if the current Commission proposal could accommodate their introduction here in Ireland. It is worth noting that the proposal from the Commission envisages penalties up to a maximum of \600,000 for repeated serious infringement and under the penalty point system the suspension of a fishing licence for prolonged periods, even the permanent withdrawal of a licence. These penalties are substantially higher than the level provided for in Irish legislation.

857 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

183. Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he has plans to amend the policy of the Sea Fishery Protection Authority and the Naval Service in targeting Irish vessels for inspection in view of the fact 63% of inspections in 2007 were carried out on Irish boats while 80% of the fish caught in Irish waters was by foreign vessels; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12430/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): The Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Act 2006 clearly provides that the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority (SFPA) is independent in the exercise of its functions and as such I have no remit as to its work programme or its strategic deployment of resources. Equally, I have no remit with regard to the operational activities of the Naval Service. Consequently, I have no official responsibility to the Da´il in relation to the operational activities of the SFPA or the Naval Service in respect of fisheries inspections.

Grant Payments. 184. Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if all farmers who applied for farm improvement grants have been informed that their application is being processed or have been informed that their application is not being considered; the number of applications by regional office that are not being processed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12431/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): The 12,675 applications received by my Department under the Farm Improvement Scheme prior to its suspension for new applications on 31 October 2007 are being processed up to the level of funding provided for the Scheme in line with the 2006 Partnership agreement, Towards 2016.

Common Agricultural Policy. 185. Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will report on the presentation by the Commission and exchange of views discussed at the Council of EU, Agriculture and Fisheries, meeting on 23 March 2009 on the Commission Progress Report A simplified CAP for Europe a success for all; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12432/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): Commissioner Fischer Boel presented the report to Ministers. She gave an overview of the actions taken to date to achieve simplification of the CAP. She outlined the work that had been carried out on technical simplification, e.g. consolidation of texts and deletion of obsolete legislation and on simplification of agricultural policies such as recent CAP Health Check reforms involving further decoupling, abolition of set-aside and the 10-month retention of land rule, streamlining of cross- compliance and simplification of the rules on transfer of entitlements. She drew attention to the Commission rolling action plan for simplification which had commenced in 2005 with some 20 projects. This plan now comprised 50 projects, 43 of which had been completed. She quant- ified in financial terms the reduction in administrative burdens that had been achieved by the changes and went on to outline the new initiatives planned in continuation of the simplification process. These include continuation of the rolling action plan for simplification, the creation of a single legal act on cross-compliance, on-farm training schemes for Commission officials and implementation of the commitment made in the Health Check to continue the process of simplifying the Single Payment Scheme and cross-compliance. The Presidency deferred discussion of the Commission communication to the next Council of Ministers meeting in April. I am fully committed to the simplification process and I welcome

858 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers the Commission report. It provides a useful account of the simplification achieved to date and includes some worthwhile projects. Nevertheless, I believe that we should be far more ambitious and concentrate our future efforts on projects that result in real and practical simplification for farmers and national administrations. I have several ideas in mind including making real and substantive changes to controls under cross compliance with a view to placing greater reliance on self-regulation, risk analysis and sample controls and examining the scope for greater efficiencies in the inspection process. I will be making these points to the Commission and the Council when this matter is discussed at our April meeting.

European Council Meetings. 186. Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will report on the exchange of views and discussions at the Council of EU, Agriculture and Fisher- ies, meeting on 23 of March 2009 on the situation on the milk market; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12433/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): At this week’s meeting of the Council of Ministers there was a debate about the unprecedented situation in the dairy sector at present and the short term outlook for dairy markets. I informed my colleagues that in Ireland we are entering a period of abundant supplies and the levels at which refunds and intervention function will be critical to the speed at which the sector emerges from the current slump. While I was encouraged by recent developments in community support, I urged a short sharp utilisation of the market management measures to get the market back to equilib- rium as quickly as possible. It is clear to me that the elements that will lead this recovery are competitive refunds that allow the sale of dairy products onto world markets in considerable quantities and, the continuation of intervention under the tendering mechanism provided that these arrangements remain relatively attractive. The Commission was left in no doubt by me and by a number of other Member States of the importance of fully using all available supports to manage the market in the coming period.

Grant Payments. 187. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when a person (details supplied) in County Cork will be granted their tuberculosis reactor compensation grant; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12434/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): Payment of compensation under the TB and Brucellosis On Farm Market Valuation Scheme in respect of an animal removed under the scheme been processed by the District Veterinary Office and will issue to the person concerned this week.

188. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when a person (details supplied) in County Cork will be granted their installation aid grant; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12435/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): Grant-aid under the Installation Aid Scheme was paid by my Department to the person concerned on 12 March 2009.

189. Deputy Michael Creed asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the reason a person (details supplied) in County Cork has had a reduction in their single farm

859 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Michael Creed.] payment; if in view of the minimal over claim he will make arrangements for full payment of this grant; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12468/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): An application under the Single Payment Scheme / Disadvantaged Areas Scheme was received from the person named on the 1st May 2008. This application was selected for a satellite eligibility inspection, which required a follow-up field visit. During this visit, discrepancies were found in relation to parcels D28306026, D28306048, D28306049 and D28306047. As a result of these discrepancies the claimed area of 35.88ha was reduced to 33.02ha. If the total area found is not sufficient to support the number of entitlements held, penalties will be applied as per the Terms and Con- ditions of the scheme. In this case the number of entitlements held by the person named is 36.85. As the difference between the area declared and the area found is more than 3%, under EU Regulations, the difference between the area found and the area claimed is doubled and deducted from the area found. As a result the area put forward for payment under the Single Payment Scheme was 27.30 hectares. The person named was informed of these findings on 24th March 2009 and of his right to seek a review of this decision within 21 days and of his right to appeal the out come of any such review.

190. Deputy Martin Ferris asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when a person (details supplied) will receive their REP scheme four payment. [12478/09]

191. Deputy Michael Ring asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the number of people who have yet to be paid in a scheme (details supplied) up until 20 March 2009 in tabular form. [12479/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): Out of 12,292 applications received up to 31 December 2008, 6,194 have been paid and 6,098 are being processed. Information in respect of applications received since 1 January 2009 is not to hand as the closing date for these applications is 15 May.

192. Deputy Michael Ring asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the reason for the delay in payment of a scheme (details supplied). [12480/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): REPS 4 is a measure under the current Rural Development Programme 2007–13 and is subject to different EU Regulations from the preceding versions of REPS. Under REPS 4, all payments are to be made in just two instalments each year. The first payment, of 75%, could be made only when all administrative checks on all 2008 applications for REPS 4 and the Single Payment Scheme were completed. These included checks on areas and on the plan details. My Department’s controls have to satisfy stringent EU regulatory and audit requirements.

860 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

The first payments for 2008 REPS 4 applications issued in the last week of January, 2009 to those whose applications required no correction following the administrative checks. Further payments continue to be made as applications are cleared. As processing of the remaining applications is continuing, it is not possible at this stage to say how many applications will be found to be ineligible or how many can be accepted at a reduced rate of payment for the first year, subject to later adjustment. Letters have begun to issue to farmers whose applications have already been examined and found to be in one or other of those categories and these letters will continue to go out in the coming weeks. My officials are in contact with Teagasc and the Agricultural Consultants’ Association, which represents private planners, about the issues that are arising.

193. Deputy Michael Ring asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the number of people who have applied for a scheme (details supplied) and have been paid with a breakdown by county in tabular form. [12481/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): Details of payments issued in each county are set out in the table. The information relating to the number of applications in each county is being collated and I will write to the Deputy as soon as possible.

County Number paid to 24 March 2009

Carlow 54 Cavan 187 Clare 483 Cork 687 Donegal 725 Dublin 7 Galway 648 Kerry 237 Kildare 72 Kilkenny 137 Laois 210 Leitrim 54 Limerick 322 Longford 161 Louth 52 Mayo 345 Meath 106 Monaghan 207 Offaly 113 Roscommon 358 Sligo 204 Tipperary 391 Waterford 94 Westmeath 167 Wexford 145 Wicklow 28

Total 6,194

861 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

194. Deputy Michael Ring asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the number of people in the country who have applied for a scheme (details supplied) in tabular form. [12482/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): Information relating to the number of applications in each county is being collated and I will write to the Deputy as soon as possible.

195. Deputy Michael Ring asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the number of people who have been paid in a scheme (details supplied) up until 20 March 2009 in tabular form. [12483/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): The information sought is set out in the table below:

County Number paid to 24 March 2009

6,194

196. Deputy Michael Ring asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when a person (details supplied) in County Mayo will receive their REP scheme payment. [12484/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): REPS 4 is a measure under the current Rural Development Programme 2007-13 and is subject to EU Regulations 862 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers which require detailed administrative checks on all applications to be completed before the first payments issue. The first payments for 2008 REPS 4 applications issued in the last week of January to those whose applications required no correction following the administrative checks. Further payments continue to be made as applications are cleared. Queries have arisen during the administrative checks on the plan of the person named and it is currently under further examination.

Circus Animals. 197. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the details of animals exported into Ireland for use in circuses here in 2008, including the species, the number, their countries of origin and the circuses to which they were attached; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12502/09]

198. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the details of animals imported into Ireland for use in circuses here in 2008, including the species, the number, their countries of origin and the circuses to which they were attached; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12503/09]

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Brendan Smith): I propose to take Questions Nos. 197 and 198 together. The information sought by the Deputy is set out in the table below. The names of the circuses involved have been withheld due to the commercial nature of the information sought.

Date Number and Species *Origin

15/01/2008 3 African Elephants Germany (via France) 9/12/2008 2 Sea Lions Spain *The only information available to DAFF is the country from which the animals were imported into Ireland.

Departmental Personnel. 199. Deputy Brian Hayes asked the Minister for Education and Science the reason he has failed to provide this Deputy with information stating the number of retired officials and inspectors from his Department who have been appointed to various boards in which his Department can make such appointments and the number of appointments made in each year over the past five years; his views on whether it is acceptable that this is the third parliamentary question in which this Deputy has requested these figures without reply to date, over a three month period; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12290/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I would like to apologise to the Deputy for the delay in issuing a final reply to him in relation to the parliamentary questions he tabled with regard to the appointment of retired officials and inspectors from my Depart- ment to various boards over the past five years. As indicated in my initial response the information requested was not readily available and had to be collated by officials in my Department. This task was completed earlier this month but due to an administrative error the information, which is outlined below, did not issue to the Deputy until earlier this week.

863 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.]

Details for 2004 Total retired Officials & Inspectors appointed — 34 Middletown Centre for Autism (holding) Company — 1 Selection Boards for Designated Community Colleges and Community Schools — 32 Early Retirement Consultative Council/Early Retirement Advisory Committee — 1

Details for 2005 Total retired Officials & Inspectors appointed — 34 Middletown Centre for Autism (holding) Company — 1 Selection Boards for Designated Community Colleges and Community Schools — 32 Early Retirement Consultative Council/Early Retirement Advisory Committee — 1

Details for 2006 Total retired Officials & Inspectors appointed — 36 Middletown Centre for Autism (holding) Company — 1 Selection Boards for Designated Community Colleges and Community Schools — 34

Early Retirement Consultative Council/Early Retirement Advisory Committee — 1

Details for 2007 Total retired Officials & Inspectors appointed — 37

Middletown Centre for Autism (holding) Company — 1

Middletown Centre for Autism Ltd — 1

Selection Boards for Designated Community Colleges and Community Schools — 34

Early Retirement Consultative Council/Early Retirement Advisory Committee — 1

Details for 2008 Total retired Officials & Inspectors appointed — 38

Middletown Centre for Autism (holding) Company — 1

Middletown Centre for Autism Ltd — 1

School Transport Appeals Board (Re-appointed for 3 year term) — 1

Selection Boards for Designated Community Colleges and Community Schools — 34

Early Retirement Consultative Council/Early Retirement Advisory Committee — 1

Site Acquisitions. 200. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Minister for Education and Science if a site has been identified for a post primary school to service the Stepaside/Kilternan area of County Dublin;

864 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers when this site will acquired; when building will commence; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12291/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): Forward Planning Section of the Department is in the process of identifying the areas where significant additional accommodation will be required at primary and post-primary level for 2009 and onwards. Factors under consideration include population growth, demographic trends, current and projected enrolments, recent and planned housing developments and capacity of existing schools to meet demand for places. Having considered these factors decisions will be taken on the means by which emerging needs will be met within an area. Educational accommodation requirements in the Stepaside/Kilternan areas, and any subsequent issues which may arise, will be considered in this context. The Department has requested Du´ n Laoghaire/Rathdown County Council to make reservation for two 12 acre sites for future post primary education in this area. While my Department has no immediate plans to purchase these sites we will continue to monitor the demand for school places in the Stepaside/Kilternan area to ensure that any extra demand for post primary school places is met in a timely manner.

Schools Building Projects. 201. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the position regarding the provision of the new facilities at a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12337/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): County Kildare Vocational Education Committee as client/contracting authority for the project referred to by the Deputy, is currently re-locating the school and extending capacity to 1,000 pupils. The project is currently in construction and is due to reach completion later this year.

202. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the position regarding the application for major capital funding by the management authority of a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; if he expects to respond favourably to this request in the near future; the expected timeframe for implementation of funding for this school; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12338/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I can confirm that my Depart- ment is in receipt of an application for large scale capital funding from the school to which the Deputy refers. The progression of all large scale building projects, including this project, from initial design through to construction phase will be considered in the context of my Depart- ment’s multi-annual School Building and Modernisation Programme. However in light of current competing demands on the capital budget of my Department, it is not possible to give an indicative timeframe for the progression of the project at this time.

203. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the position in view of the reply to Parliamentary Question No. 257 of 21 May 2008 in respect of a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12339/09]

865 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] ing in my Department’s offices in Tullamore on the 19 March at which they were appraised of the next steps necessary to progress this project to tender and construction.

204. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the date he received an application for major capital funding from a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; when same is expected to be granted; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12340/09]

234. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the current or expected position regarding the provision of a new school and extra facilities required at Straffan, County Kildare; the developmental procedures concluded or pending; when it is expected that all procedures will be finalised with a view to conclusion of the project in readi- ness for the occupation; the projected date in this regard; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12372/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I propose to take Questions Nos. 204 and 234 together. The school to which the Deputy refers applied to my Department for large scale capital funding in May 2006. The progression of all large scale building projects, including this project, from initial design stage through to construction phase will be considered in the context of my Department’s multi-annual School Building and Modernisation Programme. However, in light of current competing demands on the capital budget of the Department, it is not possible to give an indicative timeframe for the progression of the project at this time.

205. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science when he expects to meet in full the application for major capital funding at a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12341/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): A major capital project delivering a new 8 classroom school was completed in 2006 for the school referred to by the Deputy. In 2007 the school in question received approval to build additional classrooms under the devolved Permanent Accommodation Scheme (PAS). The Board of Management submitted an appeal for substantial additional funding which was unsuccessful. The Board was advised to use the grant already sanctioned to deliver the maximum accommodation possible. The purpose of the PAS is to devolve funding to individual school authorities to undertake building works which will address the school’s long term accommodation needs. Under the terms of the Scheme, school authorities are empowered to manage these works with guidance from and minimal interaction with the Department. Devolving funding to school management authorities allows them to have control of their projects, assists in moving projects more quickly to tender and construction and can also deliver better value for money. The scheme is not intended to leave schools with significant fundraising needs; rather the terms of the Scheme require the schools to tailor the scope of capital works commissioned to the available funding. The decision on whether to continue participating in the scheme or to drop out, if the scope of build is more than the funding envelope permits, is a matter for each school authority.

206. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the date he received an application for major capital funding from a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; when same is expected to be granted; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12342/09]

866 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I can confirm to the Deputy that my Department received an application for large scale capital funding from the school to which he refers in October 2004. The progression of all large scale building projects, including this project, from initial design stage through to construction phase will be considered in the context of my Department’s multi-annual School Building and Modernisation Programme. However, in light of current competing demands on the capital budget of the Department, it is not possible to give an indicative timeframe for the progression of the project at this time.

Schools Refurbishment. 207. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science when the upgrading and refurbishment works at a school (details supplied) in County Kildare are expected to be completed in full; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12343/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I am pleased to inform the Deputy that in February my Department approved a variation on the existing contract for an extension to the school referred to by the Deputy. This will bring the accommodation at the school up to a 24 classroom school. It is expected that this extension will reach completion by the end of the year.

Schools Building Projects. 208. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the position in relation to the application for permanent facilities at a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; his plans to progress same in the next six months; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12344/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): A new 16 classroom school for the school referred to by the Deputy is currently under construction it is envisaged that it will be ready for occupation in September 2009.

209. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamentary Question No. 261 of 21 May 2008, if an assessment has been completed in respect of a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; his plans to progress this project in the next six months in view of the increased population in the area; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12345/09]

232. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the developments since his reply to Parliamentary Question No. 767 of 17 June 2008 in respect of a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; the degree to which the full accommodation requirement then identified still applies; when it is expected that the next stage of the development plan will be completed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12369/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I propose to take Questions Nos. 209 and 232 together. The project referred to by the Deputy was included in my announcement of 29 September last of projects which have been given the go ahead to proceed to tender and construction in 2009. For this project to go to construction it needs to be re-tendered under the new form of contracts for public capital projects. My Department has been in contact with the school authorities in this regard and expressions of interest has been requested from builders interested in tendering for the project.

867 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

210. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the date he received an application for major capital funding from a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; when same is expected to be granted; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12346/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): My Department received an application for large scale capital funding from the school to which the Deputy refers in February 2001. The progression of all large scale building projects, including this project, from initial design stage through to construction phase will be considered in the context of my Department’s multi-annual School Building and Modernisation Programme. However, in light of current competing demands on the capital budget of the Department, it is not possible to give an indicative timeframe for the progression of the project at this time.

211. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the date he received an application for major capital funding from a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; when same is expected to be granted; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12347/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): My Department received an application for large scale capital funding from the school to which the Deputy refers in September 2006. The progression of all large scale building projects, including this project, from initial design stage through to construction phase will be considered in the context of my Department’s multi-annual School Building and Modernisation Programme. However, in light of current competing demands on the capital budget of the Department, it is not possible to give an indicative timeframe for the progression of the project at this time.

212. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the date he received an application for major capital funding from a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; when same is expected to be granted; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12348/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): My Department received an application for large scale capital funding from the school to which the Deputy refers in October 2004. The progression of all large scale building projects, including this project, from initial design stage through to construction phase will be considered in the context of my Department’s multi-annual School Building and Modernisation Programme. However, in light of current competing demands on the capital budget of the Department, it is not possible to give an indicative timeframe for the progression of the project at this time.

213. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science his proposals for the future of a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; if extra improvements or facilities are expected in 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12349/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): As part of the 2007 Permanent Accommodation Scheme, a grant was allocated to the school in question to enable the Board of Management to provide 4 resource rooms. The Scheme allows Boards of Management to address their accommodation needs and building priorities with a guaranteed amount of funding and gives them control of the building project. It is my understanding that the project is at the tendering stage at the moment and should be on site in the near future.

868 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

214. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the date he received an application for major capital funding from a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; when same is expected to be granted; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12350/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): My Department received an application for large scale capital funding from the school to which the Deputy refers in March 2002. The progression of all large scale building projects, including this project, from initial design stage through to construction phase will be considered in the context of my Depart- ment’s multi-annual School Building and Modernisation Programme. However, in light of current competing demands on the capital budget of the Department, it is not possible to give an indicative timeframe for the progression of the project at this time.

215. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science further to Parliamentary Question No. 259 of 21 May 2008, if an assessment has been completed in respect of a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; his plans to progress this project in the next six months in view of the increased population in the area; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12351/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I am pleased to be able to inform the Deputy that the school to which he refers was included in my announcement in September of last year of 25 projects which are to progress to tender and construction. The project involves the construction of a 15 classroom extension, GP hall and ancillary accommodation for the school. The project is currently progressing through the advanced stages of architectural planning.

School Accommodation. 216. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the extent to which accommodation at a school (details supplied) in County Kildare is adequate to meet current and future requirements; his plans to provide extra facilities there; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12352/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): My Department has no record of an application from the school to which he refers for large scale capital funding. However, an application for temporary accommodation has been received. This application is being assessed and a decision will issue to the school authority in due course.

Schools Building Projects. 217. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the date he received an application for major capital funding from a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; when same is expected to be granted; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12353/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The school to which the Deputy refers has not applied to my Department for large scale capital funding and it has indicated to my Department that it is not in need of such funding currently.

Special Educational Needs. 218. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science if it is intended

869 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Bernard J. Durkan.] to maintain or increase the number of special needs assistants and teachers here in 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12355/09]

220. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science if the number of special needs assistants are expected to be maintained in 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12357/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I propose to take Questions Nos. 218 and 220 together. The National Council for Special Education (NCSE) is responsible, through its network of local Special Educational Needs organisers (SENOs), for allocating resource teachers and special needs assistants (SNAs) to schools to support children with special educational needs. The NCSE operates within my Department’s criteria in allocating such support. There has been no change in the criteria governing the allocation of teaching and/or care resources to pupils with special educational needs. There has been unprecedented investment in providing supports for pupils with special needs in recent years. There are now about 19,000 adults in our schools working solely with pupils with special needs. This includes over 10,000 SNAs — compared with just 300 in 1997. There are over 8,000 resource and learning support teachers in our schools compared with just 2,000 in 1998. Over 1,000 other teachers support pupils in our special schools. The Deputy will also be aware that a Value for Money and Policy Review of the Special Needs Assistant scheme is currently being undertaken by my Department. The objectives of a Value for Money and Policy Review are to analyse Exchequer spending in a systematic manner and to provide a basis on which more informed policy decisions can be made. The review is ongoing and to support the overall process it will include engagement with parent representatives, schools, education partners and other representative groups. It is expected that the review will be completed by the end of 2009.

219. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science if adequate provision has been made to maintain home tuition adequately in 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12356/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Deputy will be aware that there has been unprecedented investment in providing supports for pupils with special needs in recent years. As well as the significant increase in the numbers of additional teachers and SNAs directly providing appropriate education and care supports for children with special educational needs, much investment has taken place in the provision of transport, specialist school accommodation, home tuition, assistive technology and equipment. I want to take this opportunity to emphasise that priority will continue to be given to provision for children with special educational needs. Along with all other areas of expenditure, provision will be subject to ongoing review in the context of expenditure management.

Question No. 220 answered with Question No. 218.

Pupil-Teacher Ratio. 221. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the steps he proposes to take to alleviate classroom overcrowding; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12358/09]

870 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

223. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science if he expects to be in a position to offer advice and practical assistance to various primary and post primary schools here which are expected to be affected by cuts introduced in Budget 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12360/09]

224. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the steps he proposes to take to ensure a cessation in teacher losses at various schools here which are expected to result in a deterioration in the pupil/teacher ratio; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12361/09]

226. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the steps he proposes to take to offset the negative impact of the budgetary cuts on pupil/teacher ratios in all schools here; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12363/09]

228. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the pupil/teacher ratio on a county basis in each of the past five years to date; the degree to which it is expected to change in the current climate; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12365/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I propose to take Questions Nos. 221, 223, 224, 226 and 228 together. There has been ongoing engagement and discussion with the relevant education partners involving me and/or my senior officials concerning general education matters and specific budgetary matters, since the budget announcements last October. To be clear there is no doubt that the budget measures concerning staffing will have an impact. There is simply no easy way to control or reduce public expenditure. At the level of individual schools the changes in relation to the allocation of teaching posts will impact in different ways depending on whether enrolment is rising or declining and the degree to which any one school has more teachers than it is entitled to under the allocation processes. Across the school system generally there will inevitably be an impact on class sizes and at post-primary level the changes will impact on the capacity of individual schools to offer as wide a range of subject choices as heretofore in future years. My Department will through the normal processing of examining applications for curricular concessions endeavour to ensure continuity of provision for those already preparing for the certificate examinations. The changes at second level are therefore more likely to impact on the range of subjects that schools will be able to offer to those starting the Junior or Leaving Certificate programmes next September. I have been anxious to ensure that the measures are implemented in a transparent and fair manner. My Department has written to the primary schools that are projected to have a net loss or gain in classroom teaching posts in September, 2009. As part of my efforts to ensure that relevant information is openly available to the public detailed information on the opening position for primary schools is now published on my Department’s website. Initial allocation letters have also issued to Post Primary Schools and Vocational Educational Committees. All the above allocations, primary and post-primary are provisional at this stage and reflect the initial allocation position. The final position for any one school will depend on a number of other factors such as the allocation of support teachers, additional posts for schools that are developing rapidly and posts allocated as a result of the appeals processes. The final staffing position for all schools will ultimately not be known until the Autumn. At that stage the allocation process will be fully completed for mainstream classroom teachers and any appeals to the Staffing Appeals Boards will have been considered. The appellate process

871 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] is particularly relevant at post-primary level where any specific curricular needs of the school concerned are considered. Also at post-primary there is no effective system wide redeployment scheme at present and this can mean that schools may end up retain teachers, though over quota. While teacher numbers are important numerous influential reports have highlighted the fact that teacher quality is the single most important factor — far and above anything else — in improving educational outcomes for children. Ensuring high quality teaching and learning is a challenge and dealing with factors that inhibit it represent a challenge for the Government, the Department, school management and indeed teacher unions. The teaching profession in Ireland is highly regarded and well paid by international standards. It continues to attract from the top quartile of students which is a key ingredient to the provision of quality education. Pupil Teacher Ratios in respect of all schools is currently only available at national level and not disaggregated by county or any other variable.

Year

2003/04 18.0 13.2 2004/05 17.1 13.6 2005/06 17.1 13.4 2006/07 16.6 13.1 2007/08 16.0 12.62* *Provisional.

Psychological Service. 222. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the extent to which the budgetary cuts are expected to impact in respect of psychological assessment requirements at all schools here; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12359/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I can inform the Deputy that all primary and post primary schools have access to psychological assessments either directly through psychologists employed by my Department’s National Educational Psychological Service (NEPS) or through a panel of private practitioners under the Scheme for Com- missioning Psychological Assessments (SCPA) which is administered by NEPS. As the Deputy will be aware I was pleased to announce in the context of Budget 2009 an increase in the funding, in the order of \4.75m, available to the National Educational Psycho- logical Service with which it is envisaged that up to 50 further psychologists can be appointed.

Questions Nos. 223 and 224 answered with Question No. 221.

Special Educational Needs. 225. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science if it is intended to offer improvement in speech and language or other special needs teaching facilities in 2009 having particular regard to the future large scale impact reductions in this area are likely to have on children; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12362/09]

227. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science if his attention has been drawn to the fact that children with special needs are expected to be more seriously disadvantaged in the course of the Budget 2009 cuts; if he put in place or will put in place 872 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers particular measures to alleviate such problems; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12364/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I propose to take Questions Nos. 225 and 227 together. The Deputy will be aware of my commitment to ensuring that all pupils, including those with special educational needs, can have access to an education appropriate to their needs preferably in school settings through the primary and post-primary school network. The Deputy will also be aware that there has been unprecedented investment in providing supports for pupils with special needs in recent years. There are now about 19,000 adults in our schools working solely with pupils with special needs. This includes over 10,000 SNAs — compared with just 300 in 1997. There are over 8,000 resource and learning support teachers in our schools compared with just 2,000 in 1998. Over 1,000 other teachers support pupils in our special schools. As well as this significant increase in the numbers of additional teachers and SNAs directly providing appropriate education and care supports for children with special educational needs, much investment has taken place in the provision of transport, specialist school accommodation, home tuition, assistive technology and equipment. Additional teaching and SNA supports are allocated as necessary by the National Council for Special Education (NCSE) in line with my Department’s policy to support children with special educational needs. The Deputy will be aware that additional funding has been allocated to my Department in 2009 to provide for an expansion of the National Educational Psychological service so that all schools in the country will be covered by the service. The additional funding available to NEPS, which represents a 33% increase over the 2008 allocation, will facilitate the recruitment of up to 50 further psychologists. It is envisaged that this will bring the number of NEPS psychologists by the end of 2009 above the proposed 200 incorporated in the Programme for Government. This investment will significantly enhance the capacity of our educational psychologists to directly support schools in the development and delivery of appropriate interventions for children with special educational needs. Additional funding is also being provided to the National Council for Special Education in 2009 to increase the Council’s capacity in the move towards the full implementation of EPSEN. The additional funding will enable the Council to continue to improve, plan and co-ordinate the delivery of services for children with special needs. I have also provided for further investment in teacher training in this area. This will ensure that teachers are provided with opportunities to access continuing professional development so that the learning and teaching needs of all pupils with Special Educational Needs continue to be met. I want to take this opportunity to emphasise that priority will continue to be given to provision for children with special educational needs. I intend to build on the progress that has been achieved in recent years which has seen a huge increase in resources for special needs. The NCSE will continue to support schools, parents, children and teachers. Along with all other areas of expenditure, provision is dependent on the resources available to the Government.

Question No. 226 answered with Question No. 221.

Question No. 227 answered with Question No. 225.

873 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Question No. 228 answered with Question No. 221.

School Accommodation. 229. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the average length of time for children to be accommodated in prefabricated or temporary structures at all levels here; if particular steps are expected to be taken to reduce the time within which various schools have to await permanent accommodation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12366/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The demand for additional accommodation in schools has risen significantly over the last number of years, with the appointment of 6,000 extra teachers in the primary sector alone since 2002. In considering the need to provide extra resource and other teachers to schools in recent years, the Government could have decided to make children wait until permanent accommodation could be provided. However, we prioritised putting the extra teachers into schools as soon as possible and, in some cases, this has involved the provision of high-quality prefabricated structures to accommodate them. In general, my Department approves the purchase or rental of prefabricated classrooms based on need at the time of application. Local school management then organise their class numbers, year on year, to achieve the optimum local efficiencies. My Department does not hold information on the numbers of pupils in individual schools who currently occupy temporary accommodation; this depends on the organisation of class groups by schools within available accommodation and may vary from year to year.

Question No. 230 answered with Question No. 52.

Schools Building Projects. 231. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the date he received an application for major capital funding in respect of a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; when same is expected to be granted; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12368/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): My Department received an application for large scale capital funding from the school to which the Deputy refers in October 1999. The progression of all large scale building projects, including this project, from initial design stage through to construction phase will be considered in the context of my Department’s multi-annual School Building and Modernisation Programme. However, in light of current competing demands on the capital budget of the Department, it is not possible to give an indicative timeframe for the progression of the project at this time.

Question No. 232 answered with Question No. 209.

233. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the position in regarding the provision of the new school facilities in respect of a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12370/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I am pleased to inform the Deputy that a new 16 classroom school building for the school referred to by the Deputy is

874 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers currently under construction. It is envisaged that it will be ready for occupation in September 2009.

Question No. 234 answered with Question No. 204.

235. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the current or expected position in regard to the provision of the new school and extra facilities required at Ardclough, County Kildare; the developmental procedures concluded or pending; when it is expected that all procedures will be finalised with a view to conclusion of the project in readi- ness for occupation; the projected date in this regard; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12373/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Deputy will be aware that the school to which he refers was included in my announcement on 12 February of forty three major school building projects which are to progress to tender and construction this year. The project involves the construction of a new 16 classroom school. Representatives from the board of management and the schools design team have been invited to attend a briefing in my Department’s offices in Tullamore on 26 March at which they will be appraised of the next steps necessary to progress this project to tender and construction.

236. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the current or expected position in regard to the provision of the new school and extra facilities required at Kill, County Kildare; the developmental procedures concluded or pending; when it is expected that all procedures will be finalised with a view to conclusion of the project in readi- ness for occupation; the projected date in this regard; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12374/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The project to which the Deputy refers is a new 32 classroom primary school plus ancillary accommodation. Following an initial pre-qualification process, ten contractors were invited to tender and seven valid tenders were returned by the closing date of 9 March 2009. The valid tenders are currently being examined and, while this process is ongoing, it is not appropriate to provide any further detail concerning the tenders. Subject to the necessary technical and financial approvals, it is expected that I will be in a position to place a contract in the near future.

Special Educational Needs. 237. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the extent to which it is intended to continue to provide financial support and assistance to ensure the continuation of the operation of the full range of facilities at a service (details supplied) in County Kildare; if his attention has been drawn to the commitments, the ongoing needs and the future requirements of children and adults in this category; his views on the need to make increased provision in the future in view of the expected requirements; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12375/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): My Department’s involvement in supporting the service referred to by the Deputy extends to the supports it provides in facilitating the operation of the special school for pupils with a moderate general learning disability that is located at the facility in question.

875 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.]

As the Deputy will be aware, the National Council for Special Education (NCSE) is responsible, through its network of local Special Educational Needs Organisers, for allocating resource teachers and special needs assistants (SNAs) to schools to support children with special needs. The recent budgetary announcements do not affect the criteria used for the allocation of special needs teaching and care resources for children with special educational needs. The National Council for Special Education continues to operate within my Department’s criteria in allocating such support. All schools have the names and contact details of their local SENO. Parents may also contact their local SENO directly to discuss their child’s special educational needs, using the contact details available on www.ncse.ie. There are now 19,000 adults in our schools working solely with children with special needs. This includes over 10,000 special needs assistants — compared with just 300 in 1997. 8,200 resource and learning support teachers — compared with about 2,000 in 1998. 1,100 other teachers in our special schools supporting children, while hundreds more work in special classes. The Deputy will know that priority within the budgetary process has been given to pupils with special educational needs in allocating additional teaching, SNA and other resources.

Schools Building Projects. 238. Deputy Paul Connaughton asked the Minister for Education and Science his views on a funding proposal regarding a proposed extension to a school (details supplied) in County Galway; if his attention has been drawn to the fact that his Department is paying \34,560 per year in rent for prefabricated accommodation, and that the catchment area of the school contains a great number of low income families who are prepared to invest in their children’s education if his Department would give them financial assistance; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12387/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The school’s application for Major Capital Grant Aid has been assessed in accordance with the prioritisation criteria agreed by the education partners, and has been assigned a Band rating of 2.5. The Department received correspondence from the school in early March 2009 in relation to their proposal to partially fund the proposed extension (50% of the costs estimated by the architect which the school has engaged independent of the Department) if the Department committed to funding the remaining 50%. The Department has not given sanction for the project at the school to commence early architectural planning. The Department will be responding formally to the schools proposal in due course. Whilst the Department is cognisant of the effort invested by the school authority/community to address their accommodation needs, the part provision of funding by sources other than the Department cannot prejudice the priority as determined by band rating assigned to any particular project. The progression of all large scale building projects, including this project, from initial design stage through to construction phase will be considered in the context of my Department’s multi-annual School Building and Modernisation Programme. However, in light of current competing demands on the capital budget of the Department, it is not possible to give an indicative timeframe for the progression of the project at this time.

239. Deputy Noel J. Coonan asked the Minister for Education and Science the situation regarding a refurbishment project in respect of a school (details supplied) in County Tipperary;

876 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers when the project will proceed to the next stage; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12390/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The project to which the Deputy refers is currently at an advanced stage of architectural planning. I am pleased to be able to inform the Deputy that my Department recently gave approval for this project to proceed to seek planning permission. The progression of all large scale building projects, including this project, from initial design stage through to construction phase will be considered in the context of my Department’s multi-annual School Building and Modernisation Programme. However, in light of current competing demands on the capital budget of the Department, it is not possible to give an indicative timeframe for the further progression of the project at this time.

240. Deputy Charlie O’Connor asked the Minister for Education and Science if he will make an immediate investigation into the whole process involved in the building project in respect of a school (details supplied) in Dublin 24, which has not been completed to the satisfaction of the board and the local school community; his views on the need for effective action; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12401/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): As the Deputy will be aware, in recent years the Department has introduced a number of devolved grant schemes. A key principle behind the devolution of these schemes is that responsibility for the management of the project is devolved to the school authority. The school authority can then make use of its local knowledge and presence on the ground to manage the project more effectively and ensure better value for money for the taxpayer. The Department funds the work on receipt of the necessary certification from the school’s architect that the work has been completed to a satisfactory standard. The contract for the works in such cases is between the school authorities and the builder. In the case of Scoil Ard Mhuire, the Department became aware of some difficulties with the project when it was nearing completion. Since then, officials from the Department have met the school management and have been in ongoing contact with the parties with the express aim of having the project completed satisfactorily in accordance with contract and at best value to the taxpayer. Depart- ment officials will continue to work with the school authority with a view to ensuring a satisfactory outcome to the current situation and the completion of the project.

241. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Education and Science if he will give permission for a school (details supplied) in County Limerick to move to more suitable premises which have been identified; if he will treat this decision as urgent in view of the lack of space in their current site; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12471/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): I can confirm that the school authority, to which the Deputy refers, has submitted a proposal to my Department to move from the current premises to an alternative premises. The proposal is currently being considered by officials in my Department who will be in direct contact with the school authority on this matter in due course.

School Transport. 242. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Education and Science if a solution has been found to the school transport problem in relation to travel to a school (details supplied) in County Limerick which this Deputy outlined in a letter to the Minister of State with responsi-

877 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Jan O’Sullivan.] bility for school transport, dated 2 February 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12472/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Deputy Sea´n Haughey): My Department has been informed by the Transport Liaison Officer (TLO) for City of Limerick that the majority of children availing of school transport in the Limerick City catchment area travel on Bus E´ ireann schedule road passenger services. These services are a feature of the school transport scheme. The TLO also informed my Department that the area referred to by the Deputy, in the details supplied, is well served by Bus E´ ireann scheduled services. In that regard, the existing school transport arrangements to the school in question which includes both scheduled services and a dedicated school transport bus will be reviewed for the 2009/10 school year.

Schools Building Projects. 243. Deputy Olwyn Enright asked the Minister for Education and Science the position regarding the re-tendering process undertaken to permit construction works at a school (details supplied) in County Laois; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12474/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The school to which the Deputy refers is one of 10 projects announced in January to be re-tendered with a view to going on site as soon as possible. For this project to go to construction it needs to be re-tendered under the new form of contracts for public capital projects. My Department has been in contact with the school authority in this regard.

244. Deputy Olwyn Enright asked the Minister for Education and Science the position regarding the re-tendering process undertaken to permit construction works at a school (details supplied) in County Offaly; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12475/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The school to which the Deputy refers is one of 10 projects announced in January to be re-tendered with a view to going on site as soon as possible. For this project to go to construction it needs to be re-tendered under the new form of contracts for public capital projects. The prequalification advertisement has recently been published inviting expressions of interest. My Department has been in contact with the school authority in this regard.

Drug and Alcohol Education. 245. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Education and Science the amount spent annually since 2006 to date in 2009 on alcohol and drug awareness sessions in schools; the number of schools that received these classes annually since 2006; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12500/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Government announced in 1995 measures to combat the use of drugs in response to a notable change that had emerged in the pattern of substance abuse in Ireland with evidence that some children at primary school age were misusing substances. To counteract this a number of initiatives were taken. These included a decision to develop a Substance Misuse Prevention Programme (SMPP) aimed at

878 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

Primary Schools for a defined, initial period of three years. In January 1999 an expansion of the project was announced. A sum of almost \5m has been allocated in total to this programme since the project commenced. Set out below are statistics on activity for SMPP since 2006. Social Personal and Health Education (SPHE) has been a mandatory subject on the Junior Cycle curriculum of post primary schools since September 2003. ‘Substance Use’ is one of ten modules in the SPHE curriculum. The approach is student centred and the issue of drugs is addressed each year in an incremental way and in an age appropriate manner. It is not possible to decipher how much funding has been spent on this module of the SPHE curriculum but I can inform the Deputy that since 2006 my Department has provided funding of almost \4m in budget and personnel costs for the SPHE post primary support service. To date in 2009, 517 teachers attended various SPHE cluster inservice events and 553 teachers/staff received school based SPHE training/support. Number of Teachers who attended various SPHE cluster inservice training: 2008 — 1,976; 2007 — 1,914; 2006 — 2,247.

In addition, in these years a number of schools also received school based support. From Sept 2008 to December in the current school year the support service has provided support to the following:

Schools Teachers Parents

School Based Support 46 331 425 Evening Courses 3 70 “Getting it Right” conference 1 143 Focus Days 9 149 Principal Info Sessions 3 37 Pre Service to Post Grads 5 150

Total 67 880 425

246. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Education and Science the annual cost of the trained tutors for the substance abuse prevention programme On My Own Two Feet since 2006 to date in 2009; the approximate cost to roll out this programme to every second level school here; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12501/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): Prior to September 2000 ‘On My Own Two Feet’ was a stand alone Substance Abuse Prevention Programme, since then it has been subsumed as one of 10 modules in Social Personal and Health Education (SPHE). It is not possible to separate how much funding has been spent on this module of the SPHE curriculum but I can inform the Deputy that since 2006 my Department has provided funding of almost \4m in budget and personnel costs for the SPHE post primary support service. SPHE is part of the Junior Cycle programme and all schools are expected to have SPHE time-tabled in each of the three years. Schools have and continue to receive the On My Own Two Feet programme (available on CD) in the context of teacher training and engagement with the SPHE Support Service. 879 Questions— 25 March 2009. Written Answers

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] The 10 Regional Teams offer the Substance Abuse Prevention Module as part of their menu of inservice offered to all post primary schools in the autumn and spring terms. SPHE Support Service (Post-primary) is a partnership between the Department of Education and Science, the Department of Health and Children, and the Health Service Executive.

Higher Education Grants. 247. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science when an education grant refund of \900 will be arranged for a person (details supplied) in County Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12504/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The arrangements for the payment of maintenance grants and the student service charge under the Higher Education Grants Scheme are a matter for the local authorities, which are statutorily entrusted with the administration of the Scheme under the Local Authorities (Higher Education Grants) Act, 1968.

School Transport. 248. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science if he will provide assurance that the existing levels of school transport will continue without disruption; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12505/09]

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Deputy Sea´n Haughey): The overall spend on school transport in 2009 is now estimated to be \194m — a reduction of \2m in the revised allocation as a result of efficiencies. This represents a significant increase of over \84m (over 77%) since 2004, up from \109.8m. The Deputy will be aware that the operation of the school transport scheme is a matter for Bus Eireann and routes are planned in an efficient and cost effective way. It is expected that the level of funding available will be sufficient to enable both my Department and Bus E´ ireann to maintain the existing level of services. However, every area of Government expenditure is being kept under review in the light of the current fiscal challenges. The Department has also commenced a Value for Money Review of the School Transport Scheme which is to be completed before the end of the year. The review is being carried out as part of the 2009-2011 round of Value for Money Reviews approved by Government, and when completed, will be published and submitted to the Oireachtas Select Committee on Education and Science.

Schools Building Projects. 249. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science the position on foot of the reply to Parliamentary Question No. 256 of 21 May 2008 in respect of a school (details supplied) in County Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12696/09]

Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Deputy will be aware that the school to which he refers was included in my announcement on 12th February of forty three major school building projects which are to progress to tender and construction this year. The project involves the construction of a new 16 classroom school. I am pleased be able to inform the Deputy that planning permission was granted for the project by Kildare County Council earlier this month. In addition, representatives from the board of management and the schools design team attended a briefing in my Department’s offices in Tullamore on the 19th March at which they were appraised of the next steps necessary to progress this project to tender and construction.

880