Vol. 707 Wednesday, No. 4 28 April 2010 DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DÁIL ÉIREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Wednesday, 28 April 2010. Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 609 Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach ………………………………… 612 Requests to move Adjournment of Dáil under Standing Order 32 ……………… 624 Order of Business ……………………………… 624 Non-Medicinal Psychoactive Substances Bill 2010: First Stage ……………… 637 Criminal Justice (Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing) Bill 2009: From the Seanad … … 637 Central Bank Reform Bill 2010: Second Stage (resumed)…………………651 Ceisteanna—Questions (resumed) Minister for Finance Priority Questions …………………………… 659 Other Questions …………………………… 671 Adjournment Debate Matters …………………………… 682 Central Bank Reform Bill 2010: Second Stage (resumed) ………………… 683 Private Members’ Business Strategic Investment Bank: Motion (resumed) …………………… 717 Adjournment Debate Patient Support Schemes …………………………… 741 Social Welfare Offices …………………………… 746 Litter Pollution ……………………………… 748 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 751 DÁIL ÉIREANN ———— Dé Céadaoin, 28 Aibreán 2010. Wednesday, 28 April 2010. ———— Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m. ———— Paidir. Prayer. ———— Leaders’ Questions. Deputy Enda Kenny: The circumstances in Greece worsened last night and there is obviously a consequence for Ireland in terms of the cost of borrowing. Given the crisis in Greece and the flawed policy pursued by the Government in regard to Anglo Irish Bank, the Irish economy is more sensitive and vulnerable to international speculators than before. Will the Taoiseach state how much money is owed by Greece to the Irish banks? Can he give a breakdown of how much is owed to each individual bank? The Taoiseach: Without having been given notice, I would not have that sort of information. It would be a matter for the Minister for Finance to reply to the Deputy. Deputy Enda Kenny: The position, as reported to me, is that Greek exposure to the Irish banks could be of the order of €7 billion. This means the fiscal targets set by the Government are even further out than we had imagined. An EU official commented last week that Ireland would either have to move its targets back or find more savings. On the day of the budget, 9 December 2009, I asked the Taoiseach in the House whether the moneys being put into Anglo Irish Bank by the Government were to be regarded as spend- ing. He said they were not and that they were an investment. EUROSTAT confirmed last week that the moneys do not represent an investment but are effectively money down the drain. It implied the transaction is to be regarded as spending by the Irish Government and must be included in its budgetary targets as a consequence. Is the Taoiseach now prepared to correct the record of the Dáil of 9 December 2009, on which he stated the moneys represent an investment rather than expenditure? Will he confirm that, as a consequence of the EUROSTAT decision on the Government’s recapitalisation prog- ramme for the banks, the Government will now have to change its fiscal parameters and tar- gets? Will he confirm that the Government is still on target to achieve its fiscal targets? Will it have to find extra savings to meet those targets as a consequence of the EUROSTAT decision? The Taoiseach: No. As the Government, including the Minister for Finance, pointed out on the occasion, the arrangement in question is a technical reclassification which changes on a once-off basis the deficit figure for this year. It has been factored in by the bond market and market analysts, as confirmed by the continuing support that exists for the Irish economy. That a private offer was successful at the beginning of this week in regard to recapitalisation issues in Bank of Ireland is an indication of a vote of confidence in the Irish economy. 609 Leaders’ 28 April 2010. Questions Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I have been asking the Taoiseach about his knowledge of various malpractices and cronyism in the banking system that led to the problems currently being experienced by our banking sector and economy. In response, he has been telling me he did not hear of or know about any of these practices when he was Minister for Finance. As a result of parliamentary questions tabled by Deputy Joan Burton and freedom of information material obtained by The Irish Times and published in an article on Monday, we have some idea of the state of the Taoiseach’s thinking on these matters when he was Minister for Finance. In 2007, he set up an advisory forum on financial regulation and legislation. The forum was to draft the heads of a Bill to modernise financial regulation. It was quite active and met seven times in 2007 and 2008. There are two points of interest in respect of the forum. The first is that the Taoiseach brought in people from the banking and financial institutions to become part of the forum to draft the legislation. Second, he gave them a brief to prepare what was called “cross-sectoral principles-led regulation of the financial sector”, which is the official way of expressing light- touch regulation. As it turned out, the Government changed its mind on the kind of legislation in question and the means of preparing it because the forum was wound up quietly in 2009 and the legislation it was preparing has disappeared. Does the Taoiseach now accept, given all we now know about what was going on in the financial institutions and about their malpractice, that he made a mistake in bringing in the bankers to write their own legislation? Does he accept he made a mistake in giving them a brief to prepare light-touch regulation given what we now know about the consequences of light-touch regulation in the banking and financial services sector? The Taoiseach: During the period 2007-09, there was a sea-change in regard to the view of the regulatory system and its adequacy. For that reason, whatever work was ongoing had to take account of the new circumstances after autumn 2008. On the membership of any advisory group, I am sure the members in question were recom- mended within the Department. There has been a very close working relationship between the financial services sector generally and the Department in terms of the determining how to develop the sector since the time the IFSC was set up. The sector has been providing much employment and revenue for the State down through the years. With regard to the question on the regulatory system, we have received from the new Finan- cial Regulator a very clear statement on the sort of regulatory regime he believes is required in the circumstances in which we now find ourselves. The desired changes are being mirrored by much change in other regulatory systems across Europe and globally. That is because of the inadequacy of the former regulatory system, which was clearly not sufficient to address the systemic risk that eventually emerged. Deputy Eamon Gilmore: The Taoiseach would have the House believe that he had nothing to do with the past. Deputy Joan Burton: He was the Minister. Deputy Eamon Gilmore: He is the past, and certainly so as far as this is concerned because he was the Minister for Finance. He brought in bankers to draft legislation on banking, to write their own rules. This is what that committee was about. He gave them a brief. He now says that light touch regulation was something in the past, but he gave them a brief to prepare light touch regulation. The problem is that the Taoiseach says he saw and heard nothing, and he will admit nothing. He has learned nothing and changed nothing. 610 Leaders’ 28 April 2010. Questions In another story we heard about in the past couple of days, which was highlighted on RTE’s “News at One” on Monday, Irish Nationwide hired forensic accountants to unearth and pursue the malpractices that were occurring in the building society. The forensic accountants hired were from the very firm that acted as auditors to Anglo Irish Bank, the people who could not see the loans that Seán FitzPatrick was transferring between Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide. Will the Taoiseach say what will happen when they come to forensically examine the loans that were transferred by Seán FitzPatrick from Anglo Irish Bank to Irish Nationwide and the role the auditors played in that process? There is a clear conflict of interest. Was the appointment of these people approved? The difficulty is that, because of the Taoiseach’s approach where he heard and saw nothing and has not learned anything, nothing has changed and we are back to the “same old same old” where the people on the inside track and in the golden circle are still being reappointed to examine themselves. The Taoiseach: I do not accept that in any sense whatsoever. I do not accept the assertions being made by the Deputy. On the question of the involvement of the financial sector in the preparation of legislation, yesterday the Financial Regulator, Mr. Elderfield, and the Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Honohan, produced a consultation paper on various regulatory changes they now envisage in respect of corporate governance matters. They are putting that out for consultation so that they may hear the views of people in the industry. This does not mean that they are beholden to the industry, but rather that they are listening to the industry to see whether there are practical issues to be considered — to ensure that the best possible practice is applied and that it will be effective and will work. That is not regarded as something that should not be done, yet the Deputy suggests that the same process in the past was some- what nefarious.