Steve Kiviat Interviewed by John Davis December 21, 2017 College Park, MD
Steve Kiviat Interviewed by John Davis December 21, 2017 College Park, MD. 0:00:00 to 1:12:30
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0:00:00
Davis: Today is December 21st, 2017. My name is John Davis. I’m the performing arts metadata archivist at the University of Maryland. I’m speaking with Steve Kiviat, who was co-editor and ultimately editor of Thrillseeker. We're going to talk about Thrillseeker and fanzines and D.C. punk. So, I suppose starting at the beginning, do you just want to tell me what got you into punk rock in the first place, and then sort of how you worked your way into the D.C. punk scene, and what got you involved here?
Kiviat: Sure. I guess just my rapid growing interest in music, then in high school, in the ‘70s, and sort of going from suddenly becoming, I don’t know, a Beatles fanatic, to then as well starting to go look at the Village Voice at the local Bowie, Maryland public library. And then reading certain other things in, I don’t know, Creem magazine or seeing other things here and there, and going into our Bruce Springsteen phase.
And then also discovering, that existed then at the time, which was WGTB radio, that—where it is now C-SPAN Radio. And before that, at some point, UDC later took it over. But the Georgetown University hosted this—had an FM station there—90.1, I guess, FM. So they had all kinds of programming. Sometimes just there were prog rock and ambient music. And just all these things were sort of eye-opening to me.
And they had a few shows that were starting to play punk. And another show. Then Steve Lorber’s show that played like a mixture of sort of garage and some punk and things. And so that was sort of the beginning, and then we would sometimes actually then drive out here to College Park, even, and go to the Record & Tape Exchange, I believe it was, and look for records there. Starting to then get interested in seeing bands and seeing local bands. Seeing Razz and eventually Razz and then the Slickee Boys. And soon sort of hearing about the Georgetown punk bands and things.
So then enter University of Maryland in Fall ’79, and got involved with the radio station there. And then at the time, the people that were running the FM station there were trying to mostly use it as a sort of training ground for people who wanted to be like commercial, DC101-type DJs.
0:03:12
A handful of us then just ended up at first just getting slots on like their carrier current dining hall station. And then eventually, a number of us got involved with the FM station, and probably then by my sophomore year, soon, I think we kind of took over that FM station. And some of the people that had wanted to use it as a just sort of training ground sort of lost out to us. And while there was still organized news and sports programs, I don’t know, we had a ceremonial like ripping up of the program cards that they used to have, that required you to play certain songs every hour and things.
And so the radio station then became this additional sort of mind- opening thing, in addition to reading New York Rocker at the time, and Trouser Press, and the publications then. And looking here I guess at—then the University of Maryland Library carrying—I think it carried Melody Maker, but not New Music Express. Those were the two big British papers at the time. Or maybe they even carried them both. It’s hard to remember. But sometimes going and looking at that, when we're supposed to be studying or whatever. [laugh]
And then going to see shows. And then there were the—soon seeing local fanzines. Mike Heath’s Vintage Violence and Xyra Harper’s Capitol Crisis, I think, were two things that we were really interested in. And I think though then by ’82, those were kind of like folded or dead or quiet at some point or something.
Then we're starting to go to shows, and I missed—though I know Tony Lombardi and my brother went to one of those big really early Wilson Center 14-bands shows with S.O.A. and everybody. And I know I had missed that one, but went to some other subsequent one. We sort of were coming right on the end of the Madam’s Organ era that I think I remember going to some little like closing sort of event or something there.
0:06:01
So Tony and I then—I don’t know, somehow we decided that we wanted to—I think I had also—I’m trying to think whether it was at the same time—I was sending some contributions to an Olympia, Washington sort of zine thing called OP that each letter—each issue had like a theme letter.
2 Calvin Johnson from Beat Happening had family in this area, had ties. And so we therefore had met Calvin, and I think he maybe came by the radio—and we were starting to have some bands come by the Maryland station. So we decided, “Hey, why not like do our own—let’s do a zine.” And so, yeah. So Tony and I sort of had the idea, and we soon started just reaching out to some of the people mostly close to us that we knew, sort of based out of going to Maryland or working at the radio station. But we were, when we could, going into D.C. And I don’t know if I’m rambling here but...
Davis: No. That’s why you're here. [laugh]
Kiviat: So our first issue therefore came out in September of ’82, but I guess right before then, that summer, two people who had DJ’d at the radio station and who had gotten involved then with the zine— Elliot Klayman and Sue German—had both sort of gone out to Los Angeles that summer. And I guess because we had the idea of let’s put this together, they ended up I think doing some interviews out there, and seeing L.A. bands and stuff. So that our first issue then, we suddenly had Black Flag and then Dead Kennedys and X and Flesh Eaters and...
Davis: Fear.
Kiviat: And Fear.
Davis: It has this pretty strong West Coast bent to that first issue.
Kiviat: Right. And so that was in part because they had just been out there. But we then consciously put—and we knew—because occasionally Tom Lyle and Mitch Parker from Government Issue both would fill in on the radio station. And then Marc Alberstadt was going here and then we knew Marc’s older brother. And then we were fans of Government Issue.
0:09:00
So they had just done then a tour and had also—we then end up running—I don’t know, I love the picture we then were able to put I think in that first issue, of John on a cable car in San Francisco in his loud psychedelic whatever clothing. Yeah. So then in putting together the first issue, and then in part as well inspired by that trip to L.A.—somehow I saw or someone saw like an L.A. Weekly article about—and Jeffrey Lee Pierce of The Gun Club was talking about them playing somewhere, and he sort of was like, “Yeah, our friends or whoever were there, and then there were a bunch of thrill seekers there as well.” In this sort of like sneering sort of way, at least is how we read it.
3 And we, to be honest, we sort of felt in a way that we were those kind of like not cool enough kids, because we weren’t—we were going to University of Maryland. We weren’t high school age or whatever, and hanging out in Georgetown with some of that original—that core group of hardcore Dischord folks. And we weren’t living—then it seemed like there was most other—a bigger group—people that were in Bethesda.
And while some of them we met coming to University of Maryland—and Sharon Cheslow then was coming to Maryland and stuff—I mean, Tony and I and my brother was involved—we were therefore out in Bowie and not sort of part of either—or not going to HB Woodlawn in Arlington, that were sort of the kind of core areas or whatever.
So, in some ways therefore, that’s what we sort of interpreted— therefore decided like, OK, we’re these sort of—we're not Jeffrey Lee Pierce’s cool whatever buddies from the Masque club or whatever. We're the thrill seekers from wherever.
Davis: The outsiders amongst the outsiders.
Kiviat: Right. Among the outsiders. Yeah, yeah.
Davis: And so at the University of Maryland at that time, you mentioned Sharon Cheslow.
Kiviat: Right.
Davis: And who were some of the other people that were active with you in terms of going to shows or introducing you to music?
Kiviat: Yeah. Now Sharon, because she had worked at Yesterday and Today, and had lived out there, we sort of met her here, and when she was on the radio station. She kind of consciously more than we did was able to sort of like go off—go back into the city and do things and stuff like that.
0:12:06
Jeff Krulik, who then soon became—like the program director at the radio station, and Jeff, who you know, makes all kinds of movies and Heavy Metal Parking Lot and things like that. And then, we had little connections with some people who weren’t necessarily involved with the scene, but that—a guy named Rimas Orentas was in school in Columbia, and went to high school with, like, Bubba [Dupree] from Void.
4 And another buddy of Rimas and a guy—Ira Hankin and his brother, who also were in Columbia—and so that sort of gave us sort of that connection. So we sort of were proud—I think we then had—in the first issue Rimas found from, like, a high school yearbook, a photo of he and Bubba of Void. So we sort of happily ran that.
And Shirley Sexton, who had also I think later worked at Yesterday and Today—she’s married now to Jake [Burns], the singer of Stiff Little Fingers—but Shirley, I think, worked at Yesterday and Today, and so she was then at Maryland.
So a lot of it was University of Maryland heavy. And then we sort of consciously—I’m not sure if that’s where it was taken, but we were fascinated as well with D.C. go-go, and then had gotten involved with the Maryland student programming committee at the student union building. They actually back then I think it was sort of named after a Beatles song that they used to have, called Glass Onion Productions, or something like that.
Davis: Yeah, that sounds familiar.
Kiviat: That did things just at the student union. There was the bigger Student Entertainment Enterprises that during the years that I was here at Maryland between 1979 and 1983, they were bringing to Ritchie Coliseum The Clash. Then I think they brought to the student union Siouxsie and the Banshees. The Jam played. So there was that sort of going on as well, and Devo and Elvis Costello and things like that. But Hal Schmulowitz who was a photographer for the—and was a student here—but a photographer for the Diamondback, then took a great picture of Trouble Funk.
0:15:01
And so for the first issue, we didn’t have like an interview with anything, but we just loved—we somehow wanted to include that. So we have like his picture that Hal took of Trouble Funk when I think it might have been from a show we persuaded—we then had them play in whatever that was, ’82 or something, in the student union building here at Maryland.
Davis: Do you remember what room?
Kiviat: I think it was in...
Davis: Grand Ballroom? Colony?
5 Kiviat: I think it might have just been in the Colony? But I’m not sure. Yeah, and the crowd was sort of a mixture of students and non- students. During those years, I think that might have probably— yeah, it was during like Thrillseeker years, because then we had got Bad Brains as an opening act on one of the bills we did, where it was kind of I think at a time where they were like banned in D.C. as—famously.
Davis: Right.
Kiviat: And it was something like there was like an allotted amount of money for the budget for whatever shows, and there was literally I think like $60 or $75 left. And we were like, “Well, let’s just ask them. They're not gigging anywhere. Maybe they'll play for that.”
Davis: [laugh]
Kiviat: And they did. And... [laugh]
Davis: Wow.
Kiviat: But then we also had—I think we tried to vary it some, which is some of what we tried to do a little bit then even with Thrillseeker, was that there was like Minor Threat, Government Issue. But then we had—now I’m spacing on this name—this kind of like art rock band from Richmond. Uch! I’m not forgetting. Just to sort of mix things up a little. And we had Half Japanese play. And so some of that sort of therefore all sort of went together.
So literally then I think therefore at the end of that summer, before—so this issue came out in September of ’82—is that Tony and I then—back then, we're literally just using typewriters, or hand writing things, and laying out and then doing layout of each page. And then we always were lucky—I think we printed about just 800 copies I think of the first issue, but we always had luck with printers who were willing to give us a good rate and understood that we didn’t know anything about half-toning or the various technical aspects of printing.
0:18:00
We would give these things with a mixture of artwork from friends, flyers—various cut and sampled collagey sort of artwork. And as well, with the Thrillseekers, we were always glad—we would then try to throw in little obscure things though that we found of interest. Everything from we realized oh, Skip Groff had gone to—[owner of] Yesterday and Today Records—had gone to the University of Maryland. And we found a photo of him in a
6 Maryland yearbook from the ‘60s, like, on a merry-go-round. So we're like, “This is too good to resist.” And we included that. And I don’t know, just other little sort of silly artwork and things. And then I just remember spending lots of time transcribing.
Davis: Yes!
Kiviat: Which, for anyone—yeah, it still is difficult even today. I know reporters and people have trouble with that, but transcribing the articles. And so then I just remember we brought lots of issues to Wilson Center shows and around, and found a few record stores that would do things on consignment. And then we consciously chose to—our concert reviews sort of reflecting our tastes. That while we would have review of Fear and the Necros and whoever else at July 3rd Lincoln Memorial show, we also would review Talking Heads and Burning Spear and Merriweather Post.
I think I was therefore reading New York Rocker, and then where there was some like Hoboken sort of new pop band, The Individuals, that were getting some hype then. And their bass player, Janet Wygal—I think was somebody else’s brother as well—but they had sort of a certain renown, but I don’t know, I was unimpressed with them.
So sometimes we were there for, I don’t know, the age of 21, wanting to sort of consciously be contrarian. Or maybe sometimes I still do that [laugh]. Or it was just how I felt at the time. But therefore would review them, but we didn’t do a sort of fawning— the approach to them that they were getting maybe even from New York Rocker or whatever, at the time. People that were into that sort of fledgling—that kind of new pop R.E.M. guitarish pop of that era.
0:21:03
Davis: Where would you go to print these? Do you remember?
Kiviat: That’s what I’m forgetting now, and I meant to actually check before [laugh] with this. And I could be completely wrong about this, but that like Tommy Berard or somebody had a buddy who worked at a printing press place and was like, “OK, I can stay late some night and do it after hours. But I still—you have to pay us.” And I think whatever his company does—“But I can do it cheaper.”
And I think it was the first issue, I have this memory that they didn’t then staple them all for us, some of it. And so we were given like Xerox boxes of pages of issues. And so for part of one of the
7 issues, we literally then at the—the radio station is upstairs of the main dining hall here. And it’s back there near The Diamondback, in this long hallway. And there was a long carpeted hallway, and so I have this memory of therefore—I was 21, 22 then—of us stacking pages, one to whatever, in piles down the hallway. And a bunch of us—some people who may not have even contributed to the issue, but who were MUC DJs that were friends with us— everybody just sort of going one by one and putting an issue together and then somebody stapling or something.
Davis: Yeah, that’s a very long hallway. I don’t think I’m exaggerating to say it’s 20 or 30 yards long, even.
Kiviat: Right.
Davis: It’s this very long—it’s not carpeted anymore.
Kiviat: [laugh] OK, right.
Davis: But I know exactly where you're talking about, and I can picture just stretching on down, that you would have sort of this collation party...
Kiviat: Right, right.
Davis: ...of putting the zine together.
Kiviat: And I don’t know, I was I think on the phone recently with my parents and was joking about remembering how then—I’m not sure which issue it was, but my parents were going up to Boston I think just for fun or something, on their own. And I begged and got my parents to bring a stack to this Newbury Comics in Boston.
Davis: Sure.
Kiviat: And to have them on sale there. And then somehow had arranged it. And just remembering my parents were like hesitant at first, but then sort of gladly did so and therefore played their role in helping to get it there.
0:24:11
And eventually, I think Rough Trade might have taken some from us. And I know then that—I guess it would have been in summer of 1983, right after I had graduated, I went with two buddies kind of going through Europe. Went through Europe for seven weeks, staying at hostels, and doing it really cheap. And I jammed in my backpack, though I think I left most of them therefore at the
8 beginning, but a bunch of whatever—I guess it would have been I think Issue 2, and so brought some direct to like Rough Trade and some certain stores in London. And then may have even gotten one to somewhere in Paris, and a few here. So just to sort of spread us internationally.
Davis: That second issue stands out not only just because it’s sort of a shift in terms of focusing much more closely on D.C. punk, but also for the use of color on the cover. On that sort of spot red color.
Kiviat: Right.
Davis: That was very unusual, certainly in local fanzines at the time. If you think of—this was 1983 maybe...
Kiviat: Right.
Davis: ...when this issue came out. And thinking of the fanzine contemporaries at the time, color did not happen on covers.
Kiviat: I have to admit—and again, and this is what I need to research further is, it was actually all this printer that we got just said, “Hey, I...” He knew what the D.C. flag looked like and said, “Hey, I’ll do this in red.” And we were like, “Wow!” You know?
Davis: [laugh]
Kiviat: And I don’t think he charged us extra or anything for that. And I think then when we did bring this issue around to sell, people were like, “Whoa, look at that!” With the bright red and everything. Yeah, I think that my brother—it’s my brother’s little handwriting. I think he sort of helped design—Brian Kiviat designed, I think— did our logo.
And I’m trying to think what might have been—yeah, he used to take some photos then. Sadly can’t find a lot of his negatives. But yeah, right, he took this picture of Alec [MacKaye] that we did. And then yeah, beginning as well with the second issue, a University of Maryland student, Rachel Sangers, who is up in Baltimore now, but she was like a freshman at Maryland sort of when we were seniors.
0:27:07
She got more involved with doing some of the artwork. And then I remember sort of joking to her, sort of sneering about sort of—I don’t know, kind of misfits, like art that you would just sort of see in lots of zines, or this kind of dark thing. And maybe it was also
9 then like my plans of going to Europe and museums. And I’m like, “We should just have like classical Greek and Roman artwork or something.”
And so that’s why I think our inside cover for that second issue is just the sort of take on that, with like a sculpture, that I was just sort of consciously and in some ways—even though we still had John Crawford cartoons and some other sort of standard punk collage things, we were sort of trying to do a little bit something consciously different with that.
Davis: Did John Crawford just contact fanzines and offer his comics?
Kiviat: Yeah.
Davis: Because to me, it seemed that he was in everything.
Kiviat: Right. Yeah. He would just contact people and like literally I think postal mail you his strips.
Davis: Wow.
Kiviat: So yeah, so therefore for that issue we included them. And then we finally got our interview with a guy named Mark Sullivan who went to University of Maryland. Not the Mark Sullivan who was in bands. A different Mark Sullivan, who I think has since maybe— I’m not sure if he has taught classes here or elsewhere as like an adjunct American Studies professor type, but Mark interviewed Trouble Funk. And I think then sadly, we—which some of the issues, we did our best to try to remedy—we suddenly realized we had left his name off the page of the interview.
And so some people have them—I see the library’s copy doesn't have that, but I think on some of them, we actually literally tried to just hand—since we were sort of big on doing initials, we kind of quickly hand wrote in an “M.S.” for Mark on that page to give him his proper credit. I mean, he was included on the contributors page, but—and that got us I remember then speaking to one member of the Big Boys, then in Austin. They were really excited to—I think they had seen the first issue and the picture of Trouble Funk, and they were just wanting to now learn more about go-go and things.
0:30:00
And then they were excited I think seeing that in this second issue.
Davis: So there’s an obvious emphasis on D.C. in the second issue.
10 Kiviat: Right.
Davis: Was that a reaction to the first issue being not that D.C. focused?
Kiviat: Yeah, I think so.
Davis: Had you been criticized?
Kiviat: Well, even in advance in our intro, even on the first issue, we had said, “We know fanzines are supposed to be regional, and we tried to have as much D.C. stuff as possible.” But we still had that out- of-town focus. I think then we sort of consciously—Minor Threat was just sort of getting so well-known. So then we also—like, “Hey, let’s give Faith some due.” And decided to go with Faith as the sort of cover interview. But we still—kind of reflecting, which was they were so well loved in D.C. We had our photos of the U.K. Subs.
And let me see. And among some of our reviews—of Channel 3 at the Marble Bar in Baltimore. That we also had something seeing Kurtis Blow with EU and Trouble Funk and stuff at the Capital Centre. And because then—which I don’t know; I kind of take it recently as like a nice compliment—Scott Crawford somehow referred to our issues—because we only put out three, but they were like 60 pages—he said that we were the Vanity Fair then [laugh] of fanzines, or as thick as a Vanity Fair.
And yeah, we sort of consciously then—we sort of sat there and would like borrow tons of records that we were getting at the radio station, as well as things that were then being mailed directly to us, and wanting to review as much as we could, as well as then as many live reviews. And I don’t know, so we sort of have both.
And Tony’s writing was very enthusiastic at the time, and creative, I felt. And then sometimes I was a little more matter of a fact or whatever in some of my phrase. But there was just sort of—I don’t know. It was just exciting times and seeing things.
0:33:03
Sort of glancing at this issue—even 1983 or whatever, seeing The Birthday Party in April, and Mission of Burma in March, and Black Flag touring with the Minutemen. And I think then by the second issue, that because of some of the attention the first issue got, we then got some other contributors. We have this Hüsker Dü interview was done by these two folks, Rich Towne and Sheila Key, who were living I think in like Wisconsin or something at the time. And I think Rich is like a librarian out in Arizona or
11 somewhere now. I was trying to find him after reading—I think when—uch, now I’m spacing his name—from Hüsker Dü, who passed on. Grant Hart.
Davis: Grant Hart. Yeah.
Kiviat: About Grant’s death, and noting—because someone has—I think that’s still available on the internet—someone has cut and paste, copied, the Hüsker Dü interview that we had had from this issue.
Davis: So that interview wasn’t actually conducted in D.C.
Kiviat: Right. Yeah, that one was not, but most of them were. And then somebody who—Leslie Clague, she was one of—interesting that this is how it turned out, that lots of the early photographers in the early scene were women. In the D.C. scene. Cynthia Connolly, Leslie, and other people. And Leslie then gave us some photos and stuff, so I guess my brother was also doing some.
But again, sometimes therefore we had decided that—like my brother had—since Faith was the cover story—so we had photos of all of them, but not of Ivor [Hanson], the drummer. So my brother then quickly did a little drawing that we just used for that page of the issue. His own sort of drawing of Ivor.
And so yeah, so then I remember for the Faith interview, we then drove into D.C. and went to wherever. I guess it was D.C. I don’t know. Yeah, I guess maybe it was at the Beecher Street house? I don’t know. Wherever Alec was living at the time—we went, I believe—is where we then spoke to them.
0:36:00
We still had a few out of town things. The Hüsker Dü interview that was done elsewhere. And we were still interviewing some out of town bands. A Big Boys interview. Still trying to—we were sort of following but not necessarily like fanatic about this kind of artsy New York stuff. These Scott B and Beth B movies.
Davis: Right.
Kiviat: And we would review Prince records, and Robert Wyatt, and whatever else, in addition—Millie Jackson, in addition to—and early New York rap records. Because we were also then writing— we sort of consciously then—we were contacting New York rap labels. That was sort of I think eventually through the radio station as well as like punk labels, to get copies of their records for the
12 station, and then would sort of take advantage of that, if we liked certain ones, to include in the zine.
Davis: And that was fairly unusual at the time, for punk fanzines to be crossing over as much into like go-go or rap, as you were.
Kiviat: Right. While OP was doing that, and I think there was some—this Columbus, Ohio fanzine called The Offense was sort of geared to like Joy Division and that kind of British sound. But he then suddenly had this fascination with like Frank Sinatra and some other things that he would throw in to be sort of different.
But yeah, among a lot of the zines that were writing about Faith and Scream and—I felt like it was a little bit more unique in including things like that. And so therefore, by putting it out, soon—I forget at what point it was, but yeah, then like Scream are like sending us like an early demo and stuff. So, despite our sort of considering ourselves still to a certain degree being outsiders in an outsider scene, we were getting more connected.
Davis: So by the time of the third issue, there’s a switch to newsprint.
Kiviat: Right.
Davis: Which is kind of an interesting aesthetic choice. And also it seemed that Tony stepped out between those two issues? Is that right?
Kiviat: Yeah. Tony just sort of began to sort of lose interest in doing it and wanting to continue to like crank out reviews and things.
0:39:07
And we had a lot of stuff prepared, and so then I sort of debated changing the name or not, but ultimately decided since some of the material—there was still some things from him, that we would just go ahead and keep it.
And I think at that point, then we had to also change printers? And so, just to make it work. But again though, he did the binding or whatever this certain way—this sort of worked out best, to I think—then whatever this other printer—you know. And I guess the cost went up from—or was it—no, no. I guess the second issue, we had went from I think it was a dollar the first issue to yeah, then $1.25 for each of the second and third.
Then we had had all this material that we hadn’t finished doing— some material we hadn’t finished doing things with. And so it
13 ended up I was actually starting law school in September ’83. And so then we were going to try to put this out I think when I was back over winter break in January, February ’84, and it didn’t quite come together. And I guess Tony may have graduated or was just finishing too, and so he was losing interest.
So then I think the summer after my first year in law school, with help from Rachel Sangers who had begun doing a lot of the artwork on the second issue, and a guy named Paul Bushmiller, another Maryland Library connection who worked at—well, he was a student at Maryland and then worked later and maybe still does, I don’t know, at McKeldin Library, here. And so, they sort of helped me get some of it together. I also included—there was a guy who I think now has since written like a book about Australian rock and who was in the band Cannanes, David Nichols, I had been corresponding with.
0:42:00
So we sort of ran a letter that he had done just about things in Australia. And then some other people in England who were then discovering Billy Bragg in 1984. And I remember then with this issue, Rachel had lots of fairly ambitious ideas on how to include artwork and putting articles at different angles and changing things. And some of it, we ended up realizing we couldn't do all of—her stuff wouldn't necessarily work with the printer. But we were able to include a fair amount of her fairly ambitious artwork that we would add on certain pages. So I sort of enjoyed that touch.
And we continued to—I guess we still had various people that contacted us and had little—a few ads, enough ads, and somehow therefore managed I think to break even basically on all our issues, which a lot of zines never did.
Davis: Right. So once you were finished with this issue, did you start another one or was it clearly stopped at that point?
Kiviat: We actually did start another one, and I think I have—somebody once wanted me to try to share that online, because I think I have at home, like the layout of the—I think again sort of branching out slightly more, but I had interviews—Athens, Georgia band Pylon, I think, somehow I think opened for U2 at Ritchie Coliseum here at Maryland, I think around ’84, I guess. And so we had done an interview with Pylon. I think maybe also with Cleveland, Ohio, with Human Switchboard.
14 And I don’t know if we had much other stuff done or other D.C.- related punk stuff done, but ultimately I decided at that point that was too much. And then I was busy with law school, but eventually—I still was then—I had contributed to OP out of Olympia, Washington, but later then, there was like a—maybe that didn’t start until much later, that a successor—that Option magazine that was out of the West Coast, and I started giving things to them later.
So it was sort of when I wasn’t busy with law school, sometimes in summers and whenever I was working, I think I was always then trying to continue some of my writing, but it was just sort of little bits here and there for others, is how that worked.
0:45:21
Davis: And your writing career obviously has continued on. Is that something you were doing concurrently with law school and then did that lead into a career in law as well? Or were you a professional writer?
Kiviat: No. The writing about music was always just sort of like a passion thing that I did on the side. And I eventually got a job with the government as an attorney. And later, I think early ‘90s, started writing for the Washington City Paper. Through the ‘80s is when I was doing contributions to Option.
And then I also have memories of certain things that didn’t work out. Of Dan Searing and I going to—who was then part of that— who later went to Maryland and was then part of various—Big Jesus Trash Can and then Twee pop—that whole scene. And I don’t know, I guess he later then worked at the City Paper and then does restaurant bartending and stuff, designer, whatever.
But he and I just remember going to see a big rap show at the Baltimore Arena. And I was there to interview Eric B. and Rakim for Option. And just but the interview going not so well at their hotel room. They were just like really brief and not that responsive in their interview questions. And later, I think I read that they were kind of notorious for always not wanting to open up or whatever in interviews.
But yeah, I somehow therefore had maintained some of that interest, and I know some of—yeah, some of my early passion. I remember when we were doing Thrillseeker, of writing to the Village Voice at the Critics Poll Pazz & Jop issue, and bemoaning
15 that there weren’t people voting for the Faith/Void album and Birthday Party or something at the time.
0:48:02
And eventually I think I got included in as a contributor. And so even then, I think as I was going through law school and was just only occasionally doing writing in the summer, I was always still sort of trying to keep up enough and submitting a ballot to the Voice for the Pazz & Jop poll.
Davis: So even through the years, as a City Paper writer, which is I think how I first ever saw your name, is reading it in the City Paper...
Kiviat: Right.
Davis: ...that was something that you were doing parallel to a career as an attorney, as well?
Kiviat: Correct.
Davis: Oh, I didn’t know that.
Kiviat: Right, right. Yeah, and that sort of continues still to this day. Yeah, I sort of consciously try to keep those separate. As a government attorney, I’m not supposed to hold myself out as doing whatever things. And again, it still all had its roots in these days that from around 2004 to 2008, I was—The Washington Post at the time had lots of concert reviews. So I was doing one or two concert reviews a month for The Washington Post, at the same time writing for the City Paper and whatever, and doing my government job.
And I know some people asked me that—someone was asking me—because I was starting to then get more into international music and focusing on some of that, or old school D.C. soul, or old R&B people from elsewhere. Some of that I don’t—I can’t remember whether we had any reviews, but we sort of like from— as I was saying, reading in the Village Voice, and I would read Robert Christgau talk about Fela Kuti from Nigeria, or obscure dance hall records and reggae records. Some of that interest had a little—you could see a little of it in Thrillseeker, in the early ‘80s.
And then by the 2000s, some of it was me being less interested in rock and punk. And some of it was also in a way again wanting to sort of cover what wasn’t being covered, and going to see Willy Colón at 2:00 a.m. at H2O on the waterfront, where now there’s the wharf thing there. Seemed more interesting and fascinating to
16 me, and more alive, than whatever, reviewing a latest generation punk band or whatever.
0:51:03
Or, even if I still liked whatever latest generation punk band, there were like a million other people who were writing about that and covering that.
Davis: Did you still feel connected to the D.C. punk scene, even if it wasn’t at the forefront of your interests? Did you still feel connected?
Kiviat: Yeah, to some degree. And would see people. You would see shows and sometimes—whatever. And I was then married and had a kid, and so then that also affects some of [laugh] obviously whatever you're doing and going to see. I’m losing my train of thought, but you know, you would run into people at the time, and I don’t know, I’m always sort of trying to keep up or keep aware of all different things and whatever later generation things and stuff, but sometimes wasn’t always able to make it out to see enough things.
Probably some of your bands, I probably [laugh] only saw on occasion or whatever. But not regularly, and not with the same early ‘80s passion. But at the same time, I sort of never have wanted to just simply like go with my early twenties glory years and just stay with that or whatever, and just think back about those good old days kind of thing.
Davis: Absolutely. Thinking back to the couple of year window where you were doing Thrillseeker, were there other D.C. fanzines that you can think of that you viewed—that would be contemporaries, or that you viewed as peers at the time?
Kiviat: Yeah. I guess Truly Needy was probably the biggest one that was coming out. I know at some point then—we met, and were sort of on a more friendly basis then with Barbara Rice and her then- husband Bill Wort. With Barb and Bill. And though we sort of consciously—well I don’t know consciously—I mean, we sort of had different approaches to it, and I think they soon were like putting out issues much more regularly than we were. And they were based in D.C. at the time. And then I feel like I also recall just seeing—oh yeah, then there was—I’m spacing out—some kid from Virginia.
0:54:07
17 Somebody started like a little more obscure but hardcore- focused—there was some other zine that had started at some point, but I’m...
Davis: Yet Another Unslanted Opinion?
Kiviat: Could be. I’m trying to remember...
Davis: I’m trying to think of Virginia fanzines.
Kiviat: Yeah. I feel like it was from Virginia. I don’t know. And I don’t know, interestingly, I think at the time I met—Bill Callahan—later a singer and everything—was living in Columbia, and I think doing like his Replacements zine maybe, at the time?
Davis: Right. Mmhmm.
Kiviat: And meeting Bill at some point and he was friends with other people who went to the University of Maryland. And then we were getting sent—everybody just wanted to swap and trade issues. And I think I may still have a bunch of them I think are in a box— actually a big trunk at my parents’, is some various zines that we were sent during those years.
And we would consciously—it was always going to the post office and mailing a Thrillseeker to whoever, in exchange for theirs. And we always did, even though sometimes we were like—these other people’s, maybe they were putting out more regularly, but they were much sort of smaller than ours, and less pages. But it was just sort of that sense of camaraderie at the time, because, you know, pre-internet, pre-cellphone. And so, you bonded sort of in this more old-fashioned [laugh] way, then.
Davis: I think that’s one of the handful of crucial ways to communicate within the punk scene at that point, would be fanzines, mix tapes, flyers.
Kiviat: Right.
Davis: Written correspondence. That was sort of the core, so fanzines were how I think a lot of people wound up sort of building relationships with just people elsewhere and sharing ideas.
Kiviat: Right. So yeah. And I remember then—I think it was the last issue that Joe Sasfy, who had been writing for the Post and was kind of—and had done like liner notes for a Cramps album, and had once been involved with Steve Lorber on WGTB—he reviewed Thrillseeker for—I can’t remember—I think the third issue for—I
18 don’t know if it was just the City Paper or whether it was for The Washington Post. I can’t remember. But so therefore we were getting some attention that way.
0:57:02
Davis: Well, I think about that article that I shared with you that was in Argus...
Kiviat: Right.
Davis: ...which was sort of talking about like the fanzine scene in D.C. at that time.
Kiviat: Right. And Sharon...
Davis: If This Goes On, which was her fanzine with Colin Sears, is mentioned in that, and Thrillseeker is mentioned. I think Touch and Go was headquartered out of D.C. briefly during that window.
Kiviat: Right. And Truly Needy.
Davis: And Truly Needy. Those were sort of the ones that get mentioned in that article, which is probably like ’83 is my guess, when that article came out?
Kiviat: Right, right. Because I know there’s a picture of Tony and I in there. And sort of the interconnected world—that Hal Schmulowitz, who had done the Trouble Funk photo for us, then took the picture of Tony and I for that Argus. And I wrote a little bit for the Maryland Diamondback at the time. A few reviews. Not a lot. And I don’t know if I wrote something—maybe I wrote some for Argus or something, but...
Davis: Would you get to choose what you wrote about, or these were just assigned to you? Like were you writing about punk bands, or...?
Kiviat: I know that I reviewed I think it was like a 999 show at the Colony Ballroom. And I believe it was that show—I’m trying to remember, because there was some—which is the obligatory writer’s problem with editors, in that I [laugh]—that I remember this from this day—probably nobody else would—but that the singer was wearing I think like a t-shirt of Elvis Presley, right? And I wrote that. And my editor who attended the show for some reason decided that she was sure that was James Dean and not Elvis, and I think changed it in the copy. And then I got like grief from friends, like, “You don’t know the difference between Elvis and James Dean?” And I was like, “No, I do! It wasn’t me! It
19 wasn’t me! My editor!” You know, before it went to press, whatever.
Davis: How was that show?
Kiviat: It was fun. They were pretty energetic, as I recall.
Davis: Did D.C. bands wind up playing on campus that often? I know Minor Threat played at the University of Maryland a couple of times, at least, with...
Kiviat: It was just sort of two ways. The Student Entertainment Enterprises was doing like the bigger shows and things that happened at Ritchie. And so they ultimately then—but at first, like when we started attending Maryland, they were known for having had like Bruce Springsteen in the past, or having the Grateful Dead at the Cole Field House, and things like that.
1:00:04
But then, they were sort of working I guess with Cellar Door Productions. That was like the predecessor to Live Nation and whoever—that kind of thing. So then they did like The Clash at Ritchie Coliseum, where—and so I don’t know who picked it, but that for some reason there was like some D.C. new wave band. That The Clash always wanted to have local bands open. Well, they would bring some oldies—like an R&B act, because they wanted—so they had like...
Davis: Bo Diddley.
Kiviat: Bo Diddley and the DCeats at the Ontario Theatre in D.C., and I had wanted to go to that show. I remember I was still in high school, and it was like a snowy night, and I was out in Bowie, and home, and my mother wouldn't let me take the car. Wouldn't let me go in ’78. So I don’t know, I was a good kid and listened to mom, and didn’t try to just take the car and go.
But then, at Maryland, September ’79, living here, and The Clash are back, this time with Screamin’ Jay Hawkins opening as their sort of old school R&B act. But then 4 Out of 5 Doctors, who were being sort of marketed as some kind of record label new wave band, just got thrown on the bill as the local thing. But we realized at the time—we were at a radio station and like, “Hey, well we— OK, we can’t really do much with this big Student Entertainment Enterprise that’s booking things.”
20 And Michael Jaworek who books at the Birchmere was the advisor at the time, and he was sort of doing Student Entertainment Enterprise. So we knew there was this small student union program committee, Glass Onion group, doing things there. So we then did a show with—we then brought in the Slickee Boys, and we got I think Tex Rubinowitz and the Bad Boys, rockabilly, to play an outdoor show.
And so gradually—sort of staying on the edge of not quite punk bands, but some things—and then I think we did a Halloween show with Tony Perkins and the Psychotics. They were local, and Peter Muise, who had taken a lot of photos of early D.C. bands, was in that group. But we had them on a bill with—I can’t remember—with the Insect Surfers, who were big then. I’m forgetting which was the bill then, that we then were able to throw the Bad Brains on.
Davis: That sounds like this is from pre-dating the zine. Were these, like, your first years on campus?
1:03:01
Kiviat: Yeah. Some of that was. Right, right. Because Thrillseeker was ’82, so this was like, yeah, ’79 to ’81. Yeah.
Davis: Because there was that sort of threshold that happens around ’80, where the Georgetown punks, the Dischord scene, sort of shows up. And you start seeing their name and like Discords fanzine.
Kiviat: Right, right. We were reading that too. Right. Howard [Wuelfing]’s—Discords—yeah.
Davis: I think there’s maybe even a letter that you had written—I feel like I saw in one of those...
Kiviat: Could be.
Davis: ...that era. Like before you were doing Thrillseeker, but your name is already starting to pop up [laugh] on things.
Kiviat: Right, right.
Davis: And yeah, that was sort of like this, yeah, almost like a threshold period where things were beginning to shift toward what people talk about now when they talk about D.C. punk...
Kiviat: Right.
21 Davis: ...which is Minor Threat and S.O.A. and Bad Brains and stuff. Well, I know Bad Brains was earlier.
Kiviat: Right. So we did then—which I think then Argus covered—was then Argus suddenly got interested, because we then had I think Minor Threat and Government Issue play a show. And the advisor was all sort of hesitant about it, and I mean, he had also been hesitant. But I think he sort of let us do it because I think there was a certain amount of money, and maybe the summer before, we decided let’s bring the Ramones here. And The Student Entertainment Enterprise hadn’t done it.
And I think they had once played actually like the old Varsity Grill bar like years before that I had not seen. And I’m thinking we had—I think Black Market Baby maybe opened for them? Though I know they also—Black Market Baby I think maybe even later opened for them after I was out of Maryland, I think, at Ritchie Coliseum. The Ramones, I think, sometime in mid-‘80s, or later or something. But they sort of soon said, “OK you guys can have some of your little...” A few [laugh] sort of punk-related shows. But it wasn’t a lot.
And then we would have some people come up and just guest on the radio station, and we would interview people. So now I’m thinking that on the radio station, then—I think these years, I think we had like Scream and Faith play live. That there was like a studio space in between the two—the AM and the FM there—this nice area there, and Scream and Faith played.
And then I have this other memory then from the early days was that Danny Ingram, who had drummed for lots of early bands—for some early bands and things—that Danny was forming a group, which I’m forgetting—that Tommy Berard was then like the singer for this briefly formed group.
1:06:15
And I think Tom was living somewhere out here. I don’t know, but somehow they just wanted some other—like whenever they would rehearse, they couldn't find a rehearsal spot. And we let them play—just practice—just to use the studio there. And so I just have memories of them practicing, and then Danny getting mad that Tommy would—Tommy was known for going and seeing every band and having every band’s lyrics memorized, but there he struggled to remember the words for this group. And Danny Ingram being mad at him saying, “You can remember the lyrics of every band. Why can’t you remember your own here?”
22 Davis: I think that Faith concert is—the tape still exists.
Kiviat: Right.
Davis: And I believe it’s in the WMUC archive here on campus.
Kiviat: Right.
Davis: I think it’s 1983, not long before the band broke up. So I’m wondering if that’s the same one that you're talking about.
Kiviat: Yeah, I bet it is. But yeah, Faith, and I think Scream as well. And I can’t remember who else. At some point, then I think—which is going to make it I think into James Schneider’s movie [Punk The Capital], is part of—Shirley Sexton who contributed to Thrillseeker—I think she interviewed Ian MacKaye and Jeff Nelson, I think by phone at MUC back around then. And I think he’s interested possibly in using some of the audio of that, that there’s a cassette of that interview. And Tom Lyle sort of became a fill-in DJ and DJ’d some. Because at the time, then the Maryland station, it was like when I was driving here this morning, you hear this WYPR or whatever it’s called out of Baltimore...
Davis: Baltimore. Right.
Kiviat: It’s sort of loud and everywhere. But in those early years, there was no station yet there at all in Baltimore at 88.1. And so, the Maryland station, even though we would jokingly call it the coat hanger or antenna station [laugh]—that’s what you needed to pick it up—you could listen to it in parts of PG County going towards Maryland as well as into D.C. You know, down Rhode Island Avenue.
Davis: On a cloudy day as well, you could even—yeah, you could—you would get it further out.
Kiviat: Right. And we used to—yeah, I think I remember, I could pick it up somehow in Bowie in those days.
1:09:03
But yeah, so some of that all sort of connected with the Thrillseeker and the radio station and having some of the bands out there. But yeah, I think it was like Sharon, then like her zine—I think she then maybe took a break from school and then was doing other things with her bands and stuff. Cheslow and people.
23 Davis: Well, I don’t have any other questions. Is there anything else you think we should cover while we're talking?
Kiviat: No. Thank you for [laugh] having me do this.
Davis: Sure.
Kiviat: And yeah, after all these years, it’s just we're all still sort of proud of what we did with these, and documenting that time period. I may be less enthusiastic about or whatever now than I was then, but we're sort of proud of what we did. And then it’s interesting—I guess part of this is for the University of Maryland project that— the university here therefore played a role, with us having been here and being students here and going to the radio station and reading things on campus and that angle on things.
Davis: That was an influence of its own, sort of that you were here, and that this seemed to be sort of like a hotbed of creativity and people who were excited and ambitious during those few years.
Kiviat: Yeah. And I guess it was sort of a small dedicated few at the time. I guess arguably, maybe you could still say to a certain degree it is whatever things are still today. Whoever goes to see Priests or whatever. But I guess there was less of the immediacy of the internet then. That you had to sort of be more consciously wanting to seek it out and find the people and the bands and the zines to want to get into it, as opposed to being able to just—I mean, while you still have to find it on your computer or whatever... [laugh]
1:12:06
Davis: It’s different, though.
Kiviat: It’s different times.
Davis: It was a subculture for a reason. It was harder to find those things. You had to want it. It wasn’t as easily presented as it is now, even though yes, there’s certainly work involved in going—it’s almost more like going through every—there’s so much now to go through...
Kiviat: Right, right.
Davis: ...as opposed to so little back then. Anyway, thank you for talking to me.
24 Kiviat: Thank you.
[End of recording]
25