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Seidman, Bert.Toc.Pdf The Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training Foreign Affairs Oral History Project Labor Series BERT SEIDMAN Interviewed by: James Shea Initial interview date: September 16, 1994 Copyright 1998 A ST TABLE OF CONTENTS ackground University of Wisconsin ureau of Labor Statistics Workers% Defense League AFL 1948-1955 Economist, Office of the Chief Economist Early connections .ith Socialist Party Work .ith housing and minimum .age issues Labor representative to /ATT accession negotiation conference 019541 2ecollections of AFL officers3 President /reen, Florence Thorne, /eorge 4eany and others AFL-CIO 1955-1990 Department of 2esearch Impressions of 7ohn L. Le.is, /eorge 4eany European Economic 2epresentative 019921 Director, Social Security Department International Labor Organization 1958-1975 Head, U.S. Workers Delegation and 4ember, /overning oard 1972-1975 Impressions of Walter 2euther Evaluation of AFL-CIO INTERVIEW 1 ": This is Jim Shea and I am conducting another interview for the Paul A. (agner Oral History Project of the National Capital Area Trade -nion Retirees Club. /0y subse1uent agreement, this interview will also be shared with the Labor Diplomacy Oral History project sponsored by the Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training.] Today is September 16, 1994. (e are at the National Council of Senior Citi4ens, and it is a great pleasure to interview my old friend and colleague, 0ert Seidman. 5ood afternoon, Bert. Could you tell us how you got your start in the trade union movement6 SEID4AN3 First, let me say that it is a great pleasure to be intervie.ed by my old friend and colleague, 7im Shea. We go back together a long, long time, before either of us .as very far advanced in our respective careers. ut to ans.er your specific question, I majored in labor economics at the University of Wisconsin in both my undergraduate .ork starting in my junior year -- I .as t.o years at the City College of Ne. York before I .ent to Wisconsin. -- and in graduate .ork until I got my master%s degree in 1941. I never got a Ph.D. When I got my master%s degree, I .ent to Washington to try to get a job in some field related to labor economics, preferably in the Federal /overnment. I got a job that summer, 1941, in the ureau of Labor Statistics as a junior economist, and I .as eventually promoted a couple of times. Then in 7anuary 1944 I .ent to a conscientious objectors% camp during the .ar, and .hen I got out of there, I .ent to .ork for an organization that .orked very closely .ith the labor movement, the Workers% Defense League. I .orked there as Assistant National Secretary for a little over a year, and although I admired the .ork that they .ere doing -- It .as .ith groups like sharecroppers, and it helped in organizing public support for strikes, including the first strikes in the telephone industry, for example. -- a lot of the .ork involved raising money to keep the organization going, and I didn%t particularly like that, so I came to the conclusion that .hat I .ould like to do is to .ork in the field of labor economics but for the trade union movement. In the spring of 1948, I spent an Easter .eekend Ajob hunting in Washington, D.C., afterB having .ritten to a number of people in advance including Nat Weinberg, .ho at that time .as the 2esearch Director of the U.A.W.C oris Shishkin, .ho .as the Economist of the AFLC Dermit Eby, .ho .as, I think, the Director of 2esearch and Education at the CIO at that timeC and a man .hose name I no longer remember, and I can never remember the name of the organization either, but it .as the organization that Eli Oliver .as associated .ith, I think, and it .as the research arm for the 2ailroad rotherhoods. ": It was called the Railway Labor E8ecutives Association. SEID4AN3 No, it .asn%t the 2ail.ay Labor Executives Association. ut I did see somebody at the CIO that .eekend, and I can%t remember no. .ho it .as. It might have been Dermit Eby. 7ack arbash told me that a fello. named Al elman, .ho had been .ith me in 4adison, AWisconsinB, in a cooperative house that .e .ere both living in, had been .orking for oris Shishkin and .as going to go to /ermany .ith his uncle David Saposs, .hen the Americans .ere going over Ato serveB in the occupation after the .ar. So, I .ent to see oris Shishkin, .hom I had met previously, .hen a group of us .ent to him -- I .as involved in a strike in the CO Camp that I .as in .hen the .ar .as over. 2 We came to Washington to get support and .ent to oris among others in the Fall of 1949. Any.ay, I had met him before and I applied for the position replacing Al elman. So I .ent to these various people to try to get a job, and I .ent to a person .hose name .as Anderson. It just came back to me. I can%t remember his first name, but his second name .as Anderson, I%m pretty sure. Any.ay, I .ent to these people at the CIO and the AFL and the rail.ay organization to try to get a job. That same .eekend, my .ife of no. almost 50 years .ent .ith me to Washington. She .as a teacher in Ne. York City, and .e got engaged that .eekend. We got married only a fe. .eeks later, and .hile .e .ere on our honeymoon, oris Shishkin sent me a telegram, .hich I found .hen .e came home from our honeymoon, saying to report on 7une 1st. So on 7une 1, 1948, I became an economist in the Office of the Chief Economist of the AFL. The AFL had t.o research departments in effects. One .as headed by oris Shishkin and his assistant .as a fello. named Peter Henle. The other one .as headed by Florence Thorne and her assistant .as a .omen named 4argaret Scattergood. A fe. .eeks later a fello. named Lane Dirkland .ent into the 2esearch Department headed by Florence Thorne, and that is .hen I first got to kno. Lane Dirkland. ": I didn9t reali4e that Lane had wor:ed for Florence Thorn. SEID4AN3 Oh, yes. I .ent to .ork for the AFL on 7une 1, 1948, and on 7une 1, 1948, oris Shishkin .ent to .ork for the European 2ecovery Program or .hatever it .as called. Those initials .ere .ell kno.n at that time, but no. I can%t think of them. In any case, Shishkin .as gone for Aa little more thanB the first t.o years that I .orked at the AFL and his office .as headed by Peter Henle .ith overall supervision of both offices by Florence Thorne. One day .e all sat do.n in Florence Thorne%s office, and .e .ere assigned fields of activity. I remember that Lane Dirkland .as assigned a field that I .as very much interested in, because that .as .hat I had studied in 4adison at Athe University ofB Wisconsin, social security. I .as assigned minimum .age and housing. So, that is a long .ay of ans.ering your question of ho. I first came to be associated .ith the trade union movement. Of course my interest in the trade union movement stemmed from my background of being from a very, very early age an active Socialist, first, in the Young People%s Socialist League, and later on, in the Socialist Party. ": How old were you at that time, Bert6 SEID4AN3 I joined the Young People%s Socialist League, I believe, .hen I .as 15. ": (ere your parents active in the Socialist Party6 SEID4AN3 4y father .as active in the Socialist Party as a young man, and he actually ran for office as a Socialist. He had gone to la. school, although that .asn%t .hat he did E during his life, and he ran for Attorney /eneral of the State of Ne. York on the Socialist ticket in some year bet.een 1910 and 1920. ": That must have been a very colorful period! SEID4AN3 Yes. Of course I .asn%t born until 1919, so it .as before I .as born .hen he did this. Any.ay, he al.ays considered himself a Socialist. He voted for Socialist candidates, and he had a passing acquaintanceship .ith Norman Thomas and so on. So I had a Socialist background in my childhood and early youth, and it .as only natural for me for me to join the Young People%s Socialist League. ": Isn9t your name Bertrand Russell Seidman6 SEID4AN3 4y name is ertrand 2ussell Seidman. 4y father greatly admired 2ussell .hen he opposed World War One, and so he named me after him. ": (as your mother also an active Socialist6 SEID4AN3 She .asn%t an active Socialist, but she considered herself a Socialist too. I%m sure she voted Socialist. ": 5etting bac: to /your employment with3 the AF2, you were /first3 assigned housing and minimum wage. SEID4AN3 Well, Alet me tell you aboutB the first thing that I .as assigned, and it%s a story that I al.ays like to tell. Our department, the Chief Economist%s Department, put out something called, FThe 2esearch 2eport,F .hich .as a four page monthly bulletin that dealt .ith collective bargaining issues and developments in the National Labor 2elations oard and things of that kind. Peter Henle asked me to take charge of that publication, .hich I did as one of the first things that I did.
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