Quote: It's Haunting, Isn't It? That Disembodied Beat. It Keeps Perfect Time, You Know

CJC

Quote: It's haunting, isn't it? That disembodied beat. It keeps perfect time, you know. Lub Dub-a-dub lub.

I will not lie. I was weak. I feared death, and craved power. ...both appetites are thoroughly satiated now.

Joining this club is like going to a party with lemmings. Don't get me wrong, it's the experience of a lifetime. But when the night is over, everybody jumps.

We used to be a blazing inferno. We used to be so powerful. At least, that's what everybody says.

There's no stoking the embers. There's no fuel left. This is our final hour.

Let's go out with a bang.

The Play-test is over, and Dragon the Embers' core content is officially out of second-stage production. [UPDATE: 10/13/13] Due to various polluting flaws in the document, only one version of the Second Stage development will be made available. The template is currently in a state of flux while we discuss flaws and fixes.

Dragon the Embers All Text Book Block [6-5-13] Updated with Yue's Bookmarks (Click the link to go to the Google Drive, hover to the right of the size until a pull-down arrow appears, click it, and select Download) Here's a link straight to the PDF, in case you're having trouble with the ZIP. There's a download option in one of the pull- down menus. It has been updated with Yue's bookmarks as of 06-05-2013.

The All Text Book Block contains no images. It is 200+ pages of walls of text and rules, rules, rules. It won't be fun to read, but it was the easiest version to assemble and thus the first to be available.

Dragon the Embers Illustrated Book Block (For Third-Stage Development)

For those hobbyists who know how to bind their own books, this version contains the fully formatted and illustrated version of the fan template. The width of the spine for the cover image has been calculated with the assumption the book will be printed on 60# copy paper. This version is not yet available. Currently, the project has only one illustrator (myself), so any version with images will be a long time waiting.

Dragon the Embers Illustrated PDF (For Third-Stage Development)

For those that simply want an illustrated PDF that includes the front and back cover, this version has the cover images appended on the front and end. This version is not yet available.

EDIT (10-20-2013) wrote: For those of you joining us just now, I have cloistered most of the development of the Third Stage version of the document in order to implement a series of recommendations made in this very thread. At the moment two discussions are currently open to outside input:

Changing Ethics The Morality system of the splat has always been lacking, and though we discussed an alternative setup called Mandate it did not help to resolve certain issues, mainly the mechanical encouragement of thematic behavior. As such, I drafted a new morality mechanic called Honor that is intimately tied to the means through which the template replenishes its energy (Breath). You may read this system and the community responses to it starting here, on Page 6 of this thread.

Emotional Weather To bring dragons more in line with their portrayal as weather spirits (so as to round them out culturally), I have proposed a storyteller mechanic wherein emotional states trigger weather phenomenon. Gravitas Man noted that he liked the system if it would be a little less specific. That discussion is still underway, starting here, on Page 6 of this thread.

Frequently Asked Questions:

Q: Dragons have no place in Gothic Horror! A: That's not a question. But if it had been phrased as a question, here is the answer: paranoia. Our dragons live separate from their hearts, and their membership as fire-breathing lizards is dependent on the integrity of that blood pump. If it is eaten by another, then the gourmet replaces the previous dragon (and if you're that dragon, tough luck for you! Your life comes to an abrupt and unexpected end). If it is destroyed, POP! Dead and gone forever. In addition, our dragons are drawn to positions of power, and like to manipulate the 'mortals' into making their environment more pleasing. Think about it... what if your boss was secretly a fire-breathing monster, using you as a puppet in her elaborate supernatural games?

Q: Why can't my Dragon breathe lightning, cold, or poison? A: Gepetto and Shock, the concept creators of this project, wanted to distance the dragon image from their "Dungeons and Dragons" depictions. Because of the Furnace, it was decided that the best depiction to use was the Fire-Breathing variety to keep the imagery consistent.

Q: What's to stop my Dragon from just binge-eating to get a ton of Breath? A: Well, aside from the social stigma of being a pig in public, it draws a lot of attention and eats up quite a lot of time. It's also not financially sound to chunk out like that. A glass of gasoline is much more efficient, and quite a bit cheaper. EDIT 10/13/13: Breath is currently under reconstruction.

Q: Why would I want to play this game? A: Because it's awesome! Actually, most people harvest Dragon for mechanics and mystery villains, but the game has some nice depth if you give it a chance. We've been rebuked before for weak themes, but I think this new version brings a good balance of mechanics and intrigue. EDIT 10/13/13: The thematic elements of the game are also under reconstruction.

Q: Can I take parts of this and make my own Dragon template? A: Of course. Since Dragon the Embers is built from the Storytelling Engine (an Onyx Path intellectual property), it is not the proprietary property of anyone. There is nothing stopping you from building on our core idea or even building a completely different Dragon template. We simply ask that you give credit to Shock and Gepetto if you use our material, and that you give your off-shoot a different subtitle to avoid confusion with our stuff.

Anticipated Questions:

Q: Why is it that the Dragon is always referred to with the female pronoun? A: To avoid confusion when using pronouns, I've written every passage such that the player "the Dragon" is referred to in the female tense, and the target is referred to in the male tense. If you see 'she', it is referring to the dragon using the power or ability. If you see 'he', it's referring to the target of the ability, or somebody acting against the dragon.

Q: Is Dragon the Embers compatible with the God Machine Chronicle? A: No! No no no no no no no. It takes a really long time to assemble a new edition like this, and this version has been in the works since before Mummy was announced. Since Dragon the Embers is tied around the Storytelling system much more tightly than other templates, a compatibility conversion would be quite an undertaking. It is not something I will pursue, but anyone excited about this project may spearhead a conversion if they so choose. EDIT 10/13/13: Third-Phase development changes will make it easier to convert Dragon to GMC mechanics, but a 'chronicles' book is still planned.

Q: Wait, so Dragons have Ablutions AND Edicts? Don't splats usually only get one special power? A: Yeah, well Dragons have two. So HAH!

Q: That's not an answer! A: Fine. Ablutions represent physical characteristics of the Dragon, while Edicts represent their power of authority. The prior is their built-in supernatural prowess, like a Werewolf's forms or a Vampire's undead flesh. It is different solely because it is more flexible, and can be advanced with experience.

Q: Why is the Mirrors appendix so random? A: It was written with the assumption that you would have the Mirrors book on-hand. Only the sections that require rules adjustment are referenced (by header only), and only the things that need to be altered are mentioned. EDIT 10/13/13: Come the third-phase version, the Mirrors appendix will be removed. Setting shards will be incorporated into the Storytelling chapter.

Q: Why is Degree of Divinity so overpowered? A: Read the section about Willpower adjustment for mortals. And the part about needing to pay to fend off hunger multiple times per day. And keep in mind that when you look like a monster, people come after you with torches and pitchforks.

Q: I've seen that mechanic before... You stole it from Leviathan! A: Yes I did. TheKingsRaven and I traded several mechanics and applied our own spins to them, since the two are very closely related (and Dragon began its life as an off-shot of Leviathan, anyway).

Q: Isn't the Dreamtide essentially the Skein from Changeling? A: Actually, I wrote the Dreamtide content solely based on the blip about the Astral Realm from Mage the Awakening's core manual, before I read Changling the Lost. The similarity and overlap is actually quite amusing, but the idea is too far ingrained into the idea of the template to shake off. EDIT 10/13/13: Come the third-phase version, the Dreamtide appendix will be removed and replaced with another system and setting. What setting? That's... a secret.

Q: Wait, so getting insulted turns their flesh to stone? A: It's a little more complicated than that, but essentially yes. EDIT 10/13/13: Fossilization will be much more important in the third-phase version of this template, and its source will be changed. It is now the result of not paying the day's Breath, and thus Dragons are once more subject to regular deprivation rules.

Q: Weak! A: That's not a question.

Q: So there are Deep Ones and Ghouls from Lovecraftian horror, but they're nothing like their classic counterparts. Why? A: We're reinventing dragons, so why not reinvent other terrible monstrosities? EDIT 10/13/13: Since these creatures are part of the Dreamtide mythos, and since that mythos will be removed in the third phase version, their roles will be downplayed and many of their features will be absorbed by other components of the game.

Change Log from Bailout Draft

 Aspects are now called Ablutions, to avoid confusion with the Changing Breeds mechanic that is unrelated. Each has been carefully examined for balance and functionality.  Philosophies as powers are gone. Hurray! The game now has 'Edicts', a diminishing returns force of will that alters the laws of reality. Each Edict has three laws, from which one may be learned for every odd dot the Dragon owns. These laws can be used in any order.  Caloric points are gone. Now the effort to generate Breath is measured in Meals.  Fossilization and 'Shade' wounds have been added. They can be found in Chapter 3. This is a very important mechanic, and it should not be overlooked.  There are now functioning internal page references, and an Index!  Shayatin, or Chthonic Ghuls (not a typo, spelled differently to avoid confusion with Vampire Ghouls), have been added to the Dreamtide section. They're corpse-eaters, but their diet consists of suppressed memories. They are social scavengers and they share the Oroboroi's power of Edict proclamation.  We've got a Slang Lexicon now, thanks to PaladinDemo. Terms based on old movie monsters.  ...there may be more. I can't remember anymore.

Lelial

Come to think of it, here's some crossover rules:

Dreamwalkers and Deep Ones:

One of the things that many Orobouri wonder, after seeing the link between Deep Ones and Nightmares, begin to wonder is whether or not they can delve past the Miasma and enter the Dreamtide too.

The answer is a definite yes. They can, and they do. It's just that, they either get out very quickly or they get very dead, in a very horrible way that very few people feel very sorry for. They're Deep Ones, after all, they aren't exactly beneficial to the general public, especially given how they only start a dreamwalk because they're trying to contact possible bargainers and cultists.

The reason for this would be the other supernaturals of the World of Darkness with a direct link to dreams-mages and changelings. Besides whatever motive relating to politics and territory they may have, both are among the most empathetic towards mortals (as in, there's nothing that forces them to treat normal humans callously) and thus, an emotion thief who gives some very bad people power in return for making them a lot worse in many cases is going to raise alarm bells. Mages think the Forgotten Gods may be beings from the Abyss, a strange realm outside reality that is inherently toxic to normal reality, and changelings think they might be particularly vicious lesser fey, but both agree they need to be stopped.

So, the dragon hoping to rid himself of the eldritch abomination might ask, why don't they team up and rid the world of the Deep One together? They certainly don't seem to be offering.

The answer is two-fold. One is that supernatural beings have a healthy distrust of each other, and if one of those races is are dragons, both mages and changelings have their own reasons to be timid.

The second is that, if defeated in the mental version of dream combat that both supernatural types engage in, a Deep One tends to die on its own.

See, normally, when a person is defeated in dream combat, they usually just have a bad day, or bad several days-a person is forced to wake up when they hit Willpower zero, with any mental damage in excess of that being the number of days he has to walk around with a temporary mild derangement due to his subconscious suffering wounds. But eventually, they will get better, with no-long term psychological damage.

Deep Ones, on the other hand, do not possess a subconscious as humans understand it. Rather, they have a mental construction that holds the Dread they have accumulated, and what sorts out what to focus on and what not to. It serves its purpose, but it is also incredibly simple and shallow, which is one of the reasons for their lack of emotion. It's literally a battery, not the brain's hidden processes.

Which is the reason it's so fragile, and why that, if damaged, it becomes the instrument of its own madness and demise.

When a Deep One is reduced to Willpower zero in dream combat, it is unceremoniously booted into the real world (depending on where it is, this could be a problem in and of itself). However, rather than a temporary derangement, the damaged subconscious of a Deep One manifests in a bizarre psychic illness that is colloquially called "Decompression" by those dragons aware of it: The ability of a Deep One's psyche to contain Dread is neutralized, causing the Deep One to consciously perceive the power of fear. Which is to say, the Deep One feels a true emotion, probably for the first time. Needless to say, this is incredibly disorientating, which causes more fear, which is even more disorientating, ad infinitum (in game terms the Deep One takes a -5 penalty to all actions and cannot spend Dread in this state). Many Deep Ones are killed off in this initial stage as they run haphazardly around in a blind panic, which makes it rather easy for the victors of the dream combat to kill it or even for it to kill itself accidentally. For those that survive long enough for them to calm down, however (in 10-Cold minutes), their nightmare is just beginning.

Fear is often called the first emotion for many things, but in the case of a Decompressing Deep One, it is more literal; the wild Dread causes a psychic link to Pandaemonium and the Dreamtide, which for all of its horrors is still the collective dreams of humanity, and the dreams of humanity contain all emotions. On one hand, this is a boon-the Deep One now gains its Cold in Dread per day, as fear empties into it like water leaking into a damaged ship. On the other hand(s), said fear also comes with new emotions, like happiness, sadness, guilt, disgust...the Deep One is not equipped psychologically to handle these newfound emotions, and given how humans are repelled by what the Forgotten Gods embody, this often means Decompression is a sure route into a suicidal depression characterized by self-loathing and envy of humans. For every day a Deep One suffers Decompression, it must roll Power + Resistance - (the number of rolls it has already made and its Cold score). Failure indicates that the Deep One develops a new mild derangement (usually Vocalization, Depression, Inferiority Complex, or a Phobia) or has a mild derangement upgrade into a severe one, while dramatic failure indicates two mild derangements or a new severe one. While the penalty resets for every failed roll, eventually the Deep One becomes incapable of functioning, at which point it usually elects to go out in a blaze of glory (which, given how it can't keep a coherent thought at this stage, is usually a whimper rather than a bang), or kills itself by swimming to the deepest, most pressurized areas of the ocean and swims down until the pressure crushes it.

There is no known cure for a Deep One in Decompression, thought that's likely because nobody bothers to research one. Still, there are rumors of a few who, rather than embrace death, choose to migrate their minds to a mortal body, namely by creating one by coupling with a human (though this is always consensual, hence the qualifier "a few"; the Dreamtide possesses an instinctive horror towards rape thanks to the memories of victims not caring about what apologists say, and a Decompressing Forgotten God is revolted by the idea). Male Deep Ones die soon afterwards as their mind leaves and enters the fetus, while females enter a comatose state where their bodies become a cocoon for their new selves, rupturing as they give birth. These "Tide Children" are completely ignorant of their previous state of existence and, apart from a rather stoic demeanor and invariable supernatural powers over dreams, Nightmares, and strangely, the shayatin, are perfectly normal. Frankly, it's probably more merciful to them that they remain amnesiac.

CJC

I really like this. Embers Deep Ones are particularly underdeveloped and this is a great elaboration. Not something for the Core Book, mind you (no new content will be added to the DtE Core, save illustrations), but certainly worth exploring in a DtE Line book.

Possibly "Hearts Fall to Earth", the Realms Invisible elaboration book, or perhaps even the GMC chronicle book. Which in turn gives me an idea...

Maybe we could call it the "Innsmouth Chronicles", and it could be about a city constructed by mortals and the deepspawn you described, built in the Thicker Waters of the Dreamtide (Hey, we're re-imagining everything else, why not the setting?). The residents are trying to construct a stable bridge to Pandemonium that mortals can cross. The goal? For the God Machine to invade the world's subconscious.

[FYI, I'm willing to pitch ideas for these 'line' books, but I don't have the time or energy for another compilation. I will provide a 'Dragon line' border PNG for overlay purposes when I release the illustrated version of the core, though]

STSword

I'd suggest removing the bit about "forbidden lore can't emulate ablutions" thing since A) powers are not proprietary in this option and B) the original special effects of the power aren't relevant. Using those rules a man can learn how to turn into a vampire temporarily, or vomit up bees upon his enemies without drinking a potion or having a thaumatech implant, they can certainly mutate without being a dragon, just like it's not relevant if the person isn't a hunter, vampire, mummy, sin-eater, mage, promethean, werewolf, changeling, or demon.

About grafts, shouldn't they add to the equipment bonus or something? Adding to durability is kind of underwhelming for most items. "Oh look I killed a man and raped his soul to make my laptop tougher," yeah just doesn't sound worth it.

And what about armor? Perhaps eliminating the penalties for armor, I just have this rather ironic image in my head of a dragon becoming some cthonic monstrosity in armor.

Shock

As someone that came up with the idea of grafts, I think it deviated from it's original concept where it would be a set piece of armor that would allow aspects (now called ablutions) to manifest instantly and/ activate individual philosophy without having to go through the whole train.

Now that Edicts (and their laws) function differently, I can easily see Law always being on and simply needing the user's input. The user may not even have to be a Dragon to do so (the Soul that enslaved in such an object regains the object's internal Breath pool to power the Law) thus allowing Dragons to outfit their lieutenants and other VIPs with theses things (also gives an visual excuse for a Storyteller to illustrate how morally bankrupt a Dragon is if he outfitting his army with these things).

Think of Tremere mixed with Tzimisce with a specialty in metalworking.

CJC

StSword wrote: I'd suggest removing the bit about "forbidden lore can't emulate ablutions" thing since A) powers are not proprietary in this option and B) the original special effects of the power aren't relevant. Using those rules a man can learn how to turn into a vampire temporarily, or vomit up bees upon his enemies without drinking a potion or having a thaumatech implant, they can certainly mutate without being a dragon, just like it's not relevant if the person isn't a hunter, vampire, mummy, sin-eater, mage, promethean, werewolf, changeling, or demon.

Feel free to discard anything from the third appendix that does not suit your preferences. After all, Mirrors is about breaking the rules, and there's no reason my tips should stop you. I was under the impression that forbidden lore could copy supernatural power, but not the features of a supernatural body (like the bulletproof dead flesh of a vampire or the physical prowess of a shape-shifted werewolf). Since Ablutions fall into THAT category, I excluded them from the prowess of forbidden lore. In retrospect, I may have lumped the Lore together with the rules for Dark Heroes, so it might have been an undue exclusion.

Quote: About grafts, shouldn't they add to the equipment bonus or something? Adding to durability is kind of underwhelming for most items. "Oh look I killed a man and raped his soul to make my laptop tougher," yeah just doesn't sound worth it.

Dragon the Embers All Text, page 154 During a binding state, a Graft improves its mount’s bonus by its rating. A knife that normally does 1 (L) mounted with a 3 dot Graft instead does 4 (L). While a Graft is attached to an object, that object’s Durability is doubled. And for every fifteen minutes that pass while the Graft is attached, the object has one lost point of Structure restored.

They do improve the bonus. And they repair whatever they're attached to. Since you can attach and detach things, it can serve as mystic nano-repair for mundane objects. Still, grafts are one of the more interesting features of Embers... perhaps they could be expanded in a supplement.

Quote: And what about armor? Perhaps eliminating the penalties for armor, I just have this rather ironic image in my head of a dragon becoming some cthonic monstrosity in armor.

I'd never considered fastening a graft to armor. Interesting thought, though.

Had more insightful responses, but the forum keeps crashing my reply. Sorry.

Vree

Can I drop my half-assed ideas here? :p

I know the creation process ended but whatever. This is not meant as disrespect for the creator, just some "how I would run it" shares.

I wanted to address some things that caught my notice: 1. I wanted to add some tweaks to the Hoard since it's such a core trope and also to give more interesting options for regaining Breath. 2. I wanted the Looming Threat Of Extinction theme to become more pronounced. Right now I'm just not feeling it. Who cares that there are a few dragons if they are all immortal, return from the dead and Hearts last forever so a new Dragon can just spring up anyway? So I added an idea on how dragons may breed. This is not as counter productive as it may seem - it is meant to make players who take place in such an adventure feel why exactly such a thing is so difficult, risky and often followed by bitter diappointment.

Hoard:

A dragon's hoard is both symbolic & mystical. While the treasure must be in some way rare or exotic and valuable, these requirements are not always translateable into money; a metaphysical connection to a person or an idea is frequently more important than monetary value. A red diamond is rare, but so are things like, the first snowflake of the year. While the Hoard can consist of objects that have collectors' value for humans: old phones, stamps, etc. - and this is often the easier path - a dragon may also opt for objects that are special in some other way, such as things that have personal value to the dragon, or to someone else (someone's favorite toy as a child). Eg. a bag of money means a lot to mortals, but since there is no personal connection behind it, it is meaningless; while a silver teapot that was an inheritance and incited a quarrel which led to the death of two family members is immensely valuable.

I think I may leave out supernaturally empowered objects (to avoid tempting the players)? but those may be good too.

Buiding the hoard or rebuilding one that was destroyed (both the dragon's own or a friend's) can make for a good storyline. A piece of clothing that is a prized remembrance from a family member, or an police badge that represents the person's troubled past, donated by one of the party members, is easily acquired. A light bulb hand made by Edison himself is a tougher challenge: it may be possible to replace by another historical curiosity, like a transistor from the first series Bell Labs ever made. But what if one object was a sword that spilled an innocent's blood? Circumstances of similar value are much more difficult to recreate.

In essence: The Resources requirement for Hoard is removed. A dragon can be poor and still possess a respectable Hoard, it only means that it is made up mostly of objects of sentimental value or objects that relics with important connections (eg. the first 10 cents ever earned by the world's richest du- person). This can be especially ironic if mortals go after an Oroboroi for the famous dragon riches, then discover what the "treasure" is.

This does not mean that the contents of a Hoard can not be genuine collector's items or jewels. It simply means it is not a prerequirement. Using wealth as Hoard is usually much easier, as such items can simply be bought rather than carefully seeked out. But it also means that if they are stolen the dragon's Resources and Hoard both get reduced.

Capturing Princesses:

Strangely, a valuable Hoard item can also be a living creature. A world famous singer or scholar, or a beloved friend, are "collector's items" to the dragon the same way paintings and gems are.

A personified Hoard is also more potent. Regaining Breath from a Hoard requires a full night's sleep, but regaining it from a person is instantenous.

This requires that the dragon meaningfully interacts with the captive for the duration of a scene. The person may sing or recite a poem, give a kiss, answer a riddle, listen to the dragon's ranting - anything that can relax the dragon is fine.

This recharges 1-3 Breath immediately. It can be used once a day.

For a person to count as a [term], the person must be owned in some sense by the dragon. They do not need to be a literal prisoner, but their freedom of choice must be limited by the dragon in some way. A person who is in so much debt to the dragon that they practically own their asses; a whipped servant or deputy; a person who is emotionally chained to the dragon, will do as well.

Using people like this is risky business. The person is always aware of their situation (as this is a prerequirement for the status), and will often do whatever they can to break free. Only continous, careful intimidation, convincing, bribes and manipulation can prevent them from eventually stabbing their master in the back.

There is only need for a single [term]. The dragon does not get extra Breath for enslaving multpile people, although some dragons have more than one [term] in different locations.

The Merit can go up to 5 dots. It only gives extra Breath up to 3 dots; 4-5 represent servants who are more loyal to the dragon than what would be normally expected.

1: A person with promising talent - at least 4 dots in a merit, attribute, or skill, and 3 or more in several related ones (for example, a singer with 3 Presence and 4 Expression will suffice). 2: A world class talent. 5 dots in an merit, attribute, or skill. 3: Someone that a dragon truly loves. 4: Like before, but the subject is indifferent or even sympathetic towards the dragon. 5: Like before, but the subject is loyal to the dragon.

Dragon Eggs:

The ultimate treasure of dragonkind, a Dragon Egg is the only way a new Heart can be born into this world. Only elder dragons are capable of birthing eggs; considering how old dragons are very, very rare, this fact alone puts a harsh limit on any new dragons being created.

Yet, hope dies last; and for many dragons, an Egg is the representation of that hope. Hope that maybe dragons can still stave off extinction, that there is a way for them to permanently set foot in this world. Of course, an Egg, being a promise for a new Heart (and much easier to deal with than an adult dragon) is also the ultimate prize for those who seek to acquire the dragons' power - or destroy them.

Mechanics:

An Egg can only be created by a dragon who had reached full maturity, which means a Furnace rating of 6+. Creating the Egg costs the parent dragon a DOT of Furnace and a DOT of Willpower. It is possible to create more than one Egg at a time, in which case, an extra DOT of Furnace must be spent for each extra egg. It is not required to spend additional dots of Willpower in this case.

Once the Egg is created, it can take up to 10 years before it finally hatches. This often causes the owner to become reclusive and paranoid. It is not unheard of for an egg to change hands several times due to various thieving factions competing for it, or due the dragon parent trying to ensure a safe place for it.

Eggs do not birth live hatchlings. Instead, an Egg produces a single new Heart. Of course, the parent dragon usually has a candidate (such as a Dragon-Blooded offspring) who they think should receive it.

CJC

Quote: 2. I wanted the Looming Threat Of Extinction theme to become more pronounced. Right now I'm just not feeling it. Who cares that there are a few dragons if they are all immortal, return from the dead and Hearts last forever so a new Dragon can just spring up anyway? Well, you CAN destroy a Heart, but you have to consciously set out to do so (being as hard as reinforced steel, it's sort of hard to damage [All Text Page 153]). Also, chomping on a Heart when you're already a Dragon pumps up your Furnace, but destroys the Heart (bad, BAD Naughty dragon-eater!). Finally, Hearts can get 'lost' in para-dimensional spaces, such as the Dreamtide or the Shadow (though the latter would need to be stolen away by another supernatural being, as an Oroboroi cannot go there). But you're right, there probably needs to be a few more ways to break the Heart (other than the implied 'when your beats are up, they're up' that's in the Epilogue)

There was a concept I had for the Realms Invisible supplement "Hearts Fall to Earth", wherein an Oroboroi enters the dream of her deceased antecedent and fetches a 'copy' of her own Heart. The Antecedent could then consume the copy and come back to life. From that point onward, the Heart would effectively become two independent Hearts. The effort would be fraught with peril, and often fruitless (as the Heart needs to be replicated in the Dream in perfect detail). Alternatively, Pilot Light Children can be slaughtered for their heart's extra chambers, which can then be pieced together to form a new Oroboroi Heart (or so the rumor goes). I could even see Deep Ones making a bargain for a new Heart, though it might not be a new one (it could be somebody else's Heart though, or even the Oroboroi's own...).

I have some reservations about this Egg idea, though. I think it needs to be something more difficult to attain. Granted, Furnace 6 is an impressive feat, but because the Oroboroi are usurpers there needs to be some kind of connection to the original dragons, like a talon or blood sample, along with a ritual written in their pre-collapse language. Or perhaps even a glass of water from the eternal erasure of the Ocean Ouroborus in the far reaches of Pandemonium. I do like that the Egg contains a disembodies Heart, though. That's some awesome, creepy imagery.

I'll see if there's any space to squeeze some of these ideas into the All Text (and I'll add you to the Credits!), but if it changes the pagination it needs to go into a different book.

Vree

Well, one of my bigger (personal) qualms was that you made the dragons immortal (returning from the dead). I think that was unneeded, as it is not really a big part of any dragon myths, and counters the idea that dragons are on their way out. A dragon should be very long lived, yes, and well protected against most attacks, but also tragically, irrevocably mortal.

I'll make another post to type my personal impressions in more detail, but here is what I'd have done:

- I'd have made the Knights Of The Chalice more pronouncedly dragon-killers. There are just too many magical properties to the dragon's body; there is the Heart, the blood, the Red Pearl... On the other hand, a dragon-exterminating order (on top of the others who want the Heart for their own benefit) helps to heap up threats that make you feel that it is difficult for them to survive.

Also, Fossilization. Since this is the 'BIG' bane to the dragons, it is a bit too well hidden within chapter 3. I only found it because you pointed it out to me. Could it perhaps be mentioned earlier, with a link to that section in chapter 3?

I love the core idea, that a dragon may turn into a dinosaur fossil (and so, yknow, many of our dino skeletons are actually dragons n stuff!)

But! I can't wrap my head around how this will look like in practice when someone insults a dragon and they turn into stone? Does that feel like a good story?

If i was for example, a condition or sickness that threatens dragons (again adding to the list of threats that makes dragons mortal), perhaps a supernatural Dreamtime affliciton even, I'd be much more friendly with that. And, y'know, maybe it can even be started by stuff related to kingdom and respect, I'm not against it being like that.

CJC wrote: This is a good adjustment and can probably be Errata'd without too much trouble

Thanks! It is you who knows what can be mysically/symbolically important for a dragon, so please go ahead and refine my rough idea if you want to use some other measures for rarity and value.

I added an example of a character with a 0 Resources Hoard here, although this is only one example here.

Sullivan, King Of The Poor District

[city's] downtown slum is a realm no sane conqueror would ever dream of. The people that live here (mostly immigrants, elderly, disabled, addicts, or other unfortunates who fell off from thre fringes off of society) have little to offer, and live in outmost poverty without much social order or protection.

This suits just fine for Sullivan, a dragon of little power and a pitied outccast of the dragon community himself. He's been living in the slums for decades now, confident that it is unlikely that any of his own kind would find him here or try to wrestle this domain from him. To most of the people of the slum, he is just another bum walking the streets, yet behind the scenes Sullivan is actually well known and respected. The people that live here rarely have time to care about each other's small problems or pay attention to small tragedies that happen on a regular basis; but Sullivan remembers and observes everything. Sometimes he offers a helping hand, or lets information slip from one person to another. Sullivan is a democrat at heart (another thing that makes him an exception among dragons) and tries to embody a kindly ruler and a "first servant of the state" whose job is to work hard and aid his subjects' interest. Of course, given the predators out there that have use for even a low-ranking dragon's heart, it is doubtful if this "king" can hide forever.

Sullivan's Junk Heap (two dot Hoard)

This Hoard is an example of what a Hoard backed by zero Resources may look like.

The Sculpture - An abstract artist used to live two streets down from Sullivan. She probably does not even remember throwing away this early attempt, but Sullivan retrieved it and added it to his Hoard. That person managed to secure a better job for herself and move away from the district (with some unseen aid from Sullivan) some time later. Whether she never creates another piece of art again, or if maybe she makes it big and becomes an acknowledged artist, will all raise the value of this object in Sullivan's eyes. Newspaper Cut-Outs - All relate to various big and small events (many of them long forgotten) that happened over the years in the district. The Sledgehammer - This object was once used for murder. Sullivan saw to it that the perpetrator got punished, and brought it back as a memento. It has actually caused him a lot of headache, as it is effectively a murder weapon, so it may cause him trouble if authorities ever decided to onvestigate and found it in his possession, yet he could not bring himself to destroy it, as it would null its value as part of the Hoard. The Diary - Sullivan did not actually ever write anything into this notebook, but it was a gift from a family member and probably the only possession he has remaining from his time before becoming a dragon.

Sullivan's stuff as well as his makeshift home is highly flammable. One of these days, some hooligans will throw a torch on it out of cruelty, or a dropped cigar or a hot summer may do the same. That will be when the monstrous side of the dragon, half forgotten after decades, will show itself.

CJC wrote: I really like this idea. There's no room for it in the Core (especially if I Errata the Hoard merit), but it should definitely be explored in one of the side books (perhaps as a separate merit, since its mechanics are so different) EDIT: If you don't like Maiden, how about Muse? And come to think of it, there's a mostly open page after Grafts at the end of Chapter 3, I might be able to fit this in if I'm concise. ...Something to consider.

Well I wanted to give it a broad interpretation, to avoid making it look silly. The idea is that there can be many personal reasons why a dragon may keep a person like this around. For example, a Trickster dragon may enjoy the occassional company of someone who can challenge them at riddles. It is even possible that a Wrath dragon will capture a hated foe and ceremoniously fight them time to time. Or you may keep around a university professor who can add up big numbers in his head, same as if you were keeping a dog around for his ability to do amusing tricks.

(There is also an idea in there that what you keep a Muse around for, is also a potential weapon for your own undoing - a person you like for smarts may outwit you, a person you love you may be emotionally incapable of defending against etc.)

I guess Muse is okay though, but something more generic may be even better.

Also, maybe it should be allowed to go up to 3 Breath? I'm not sure. It is just too easy to recover breath by eating. There should be some incentive for maintaining Muses and Hoards.

(On that note, I think you really should remove the remaining mentions of proteins and calories - it just looks silly. "Meals" is ok.)

CJC wrote: I have some reservations about this Egg idea, though. I think it needs to be something more difficult to attain. Granted, Furnace 6 is an impressive feat, but because the Oroboroi are usurpers there needs to be some kind of connection to the original dragons, like a talon or blood sample, along with a ritual written in their pre-collapse language. Or perhaps even a glass of water from the eternal erasure of the Ocean Ouroborus in the far reaches of Pandemonium. I do like that the Egg contains a disembodies Heart, though. That's some awesome, creepy imagery.

Definitely agree, approrpiate background there that is related should be added.

Eggs are mostly intended as adventure hooks, for example: - The party must retrieve an egg that was stolen. The egg is just before hatching, so a lot of parties wants their hands on it, who they must escape from in the process too. They must then make a choice: do they use the Heart themselves; do they give it back to its owner, even though the heir he selected is kind of a jerk (and gain an Ally); or do they give it to someone more deserving, like the kindly little poor girl down the street (and incur the wrath of the dragon the egg belonged to). - A dragon created not one but TWO eggs, making her kind of a celebrity among dragonkind. But because the info is out, she needs bodyguards. The party can not prevent that she is eventually killed and one egg is stolen and the other destroyed. She reveals however that there is actually a THIRD egg, and she intended the other two as distractions. With her dead, the party can decide to hide the egg away until it hatches and then do with it as she wished, or they can simply sell it for their own benefit.

TheKingsRaven

The idea of objects of memory and significance has already been done by both Geist and Mummy. What's more dragon mythology is quite clear on the gold.

What I would do is say that it's "beauty" that matters. Gold and diamonds are beautiful because they shine. Art is beautiful because it's art.

Sure you could have a stamp collection, or displays of old telephones, but that's because stamps and retro tech is pretty.

Vree wrote: Capturing Princesses:

Strangely, a valuable Hoard item can also be a living creature. A world famous singer or scholar, or a beloved friend, are "collector's items" to the dragon the same way paintings and gems are. This works very well, but I'd keep the collector aspect.

Maybe each maiden can give you three breath in a very short time period but only once per week. So if don't have many and you've already watched them sing this week you're stuck.

Vree

Well I can do that, but are you ready for more critiquuueee timee?

(jerkass time) My big BIG problem that it reads too much like the ultimate Dragonborn player's fantasy. You get to play a dragon; not just any dragon,mind you, but an immortal dragon, who is divine, a natural ruler, has a Morality that spells how they are better than everyone, and every piece of their body has some sort of magical property. It is probably an oversight that they do not poop gold, as well.

Where is the horror? (Or, if that does not work, where is the "fun" part?) Immortality is not horror. That's like saying dragons are so beautiful it's their curse. Vampires aren't horror because they live forever, but because they feed on people in exchange. Also, immortality is overdone in WoD splats anyway. Perhaps it is good; PCs have a way to get their characters back. On the other hand, I don't see why it was needed for dragons, it is not really a part of their trope. If someone makes a Phoenix: The Rising now (wait...I'm late with that idea again, what they should do is NOT let them revive, because it is already covered by this splat. (Mind you, it's OK for dragons to be long living and resilient. But if they are dead, they should stay dead. Otherwise, how do you sell it that the world loses something irreplaceable when they die?)

The way I'd fix that if I had my way would be to - remove/tweak the revival option for dragons, and introduce an "expiration date" for Hearts too. - increase/reimagine the threats so that they felt more strongly (Fossilization, dragon killer knight faction, reproduction issues, natural mortality) - probably remove or rethink the magical blood and the Red Pearl a bit - make them variants of the Heart, probably (eg. you get blood by destroying the Heart, and such) - also, more reasons for dragons to be monsters (there may be sections like the 7 evils that actually do OK at this. If I accidentally skipped any, 'm sorry.)

I mean, there is such great horror traidition surrounding dragons. You did not have to force yourself to adapt to this idealized version (I also don't buy it that it is for the sake of matching it with the Asian dragon tropes - usually very little real mythology from those actually makes it through, the bit with touching your dragon slayer sword with Jade is also a bit I have issues with - when you actually imagine the human Hunter doing this, it just seems ridiculous o_o)

This is only my own impression, mind you. :p Several fansplats AMAZINGLY managed to get completed & be popular without my invaluable adice (strange, huh?), so take these with a pinch salt.

Now I'll do the much more pleasurable task of pointing out what I really like.

- The five Methods are excellent. This is the part that makes me want to play as a dragon - effectively which sells the book to me at all. I did not much like the Heart idea at first, this is the part that convinced me that it was viable. A lot of splats combine multiple facets of a trope, for example Promethean making Frankenstein monsters the alchemists too. This combining the dragon huner mortal AND the dragon is excellent.

I was a but disappointed even, that it only gives an Attribute bonus. :p Some nice Method-related drawback would've worked there too.

- I also really enjoyed the Ablutions. They seemed to be balanced, cover a lot, and even seem to be applicable to some other monster splat if someone wants. The Tells are fantastic too. Good job.

Some other things:

- Ethics: I hate the name. Couldn't it be something that sounds remotely draconic? Just call it "Code" if you must.

I'd haver preferred it tho if it was more pronounced that dragon ethics =/= human ethics. Traditionally, dragons have their own strange code but it is a lot more selfish and cruel than humans'. So the suggestion that "The main function of Ethics is to remind dragons that they are supposed to be better than mankind." - sounds ridiculous to me. Dragons have no need to bother with human morality. They live longer, see and know things a small mortal does not, and at the end of the day, they are bigger and can, if they want, eat people. If I had made the morality stat, I'd have probably focused on the matters where a dragon must make decisions that a mortal can not possibly concieve.

For example, if you treat dragons like rulers: a leader may have to make decisions where the death of some for the sake of the rest is ievitable. In our small everyman lives, such a decision is usually avoidable, or we can transfer the weight and responsibility of the decision to the state. As such, WE have the luxury of thinking we are better than our leaders, who do some of these unethical things on a regular basis. We on the other hand, may seem like people who never get to see the big picture. A leader/dragon must adopt a completely different set of ethics, where there is often no perfect decision as either may lead to the unjust deaths and sufferings of some. Yet, THEY can not make someone else make the decision for them. If I was redoing Ethics, I'd definitely focus on this side more.

- the excised bits: it seems WW is more protective of their stuff now? didn't see this problem come up in other fanbooks yet.

I think there was a hint in the intro that the Storytelling System is free to use to some extent, can you give some info on that? I never heard of that before either.

Anyway, what I wanted to mention on this is that some parts, page 37 for example, have became wholly unreadable. I guess these will be redone in a new edition?

(PS. Now that I got that off my chest, fell free to sell me on the book and explain all the things I missed. ;) )

CJC

This will require a complete rewrite of the first and fourth chapters (and possibly the entire book). I had considered this when I wanted to combine the Five Evils with the regular part of the game, but I tacked it on as a setting hack instead (because I didn't want to force it down everybody's throat). A rewrite... it's not entirely out of the picture, but I don't have the time right now. I've got personal projects that need my attention.

I can see it really helping the thematic elements of the game, though, and so I've assembled this list of things that we would need to do:

 Strip out Deprivation and replace it with Fossilization. Insults aren’t enough to make Fossilization work for the template, it needs to be a constant looming threat. If they don’t pay their breath, their flesh and bone will turn to stone. After all, they are usurpers and their bodies are not fit to handle the power they steal.  Adjust Death. Not only does it trigger a permanent derangement EVERY time (as opposed to on a failed Ethics roll), Death inflicts 1 Agg damage upon the Heart. The Heart itself heals at an incredibly slow rate, of one bashing wound per year, one lethal wound every 192 years, and one aggravated wound every 672 years. They can be healed by supernatural means, but being disembodied they require ten times the effort.  The Saintly Devils need to be incorporated into the standard Oroboroi (just as they are in “The Evil Within us All” setting hack found on page 161 of Chapter 4). Each Method will receive one of the triggers. o Slayers are triggered by Wrath. o Finders are triggered by Sloth o Challengers are triggered by Lust o Tricksters are triggered by Greed o Inheritors are triggered by Pride In addition, this will require the creation of a new antagonistic sect. For this purpose I have thought up two new methods: o Bargainer, who receives her Heart from a supernatural exchange (usually a pact with a Deep One). Her “Bad” mode is triggered by Envy, and her favored attribute is Resolve. o Dreamer, who receives her Heart in a dream and becomes a weapon of Pandemonium. She is a vessel of an ancient Dragon that was usurped by one of the original Oroboroi, and that alien god takes control of her body whenever she witnesses an act of Gluttony on par with a Vice’s fulfillment (and fails her roll, just like any other Saintly Devil transition [though they’re all saintly devils with this adjustment]). Her favored attribute is Composure.

This change gives Embers a much bigger hold on Jekyll/Hyde horror, where witnessing the wrong wretched act can turn you into a wretched fiend.  Using the matters discussed in this thread, adjust Hoard and make it a full-blown mechanic of the system instead of a merit. Likewise, introduce the Muse mechanic and de-emphasize regular food as a means of accruing breath. Our Oroboroi should be turning to shiny things, kidnapping, and gasoline to keep themselves fueled, not restaurant binges.  Rework and rename Dragon morality. I’m going to need some ideas for this one, though, because I’m stuck.

As for the mess of excisions in the second chapter, when I began writing for Dragon the Embers there was a very specific page called “The Dark Pack Agreement” that said what could and could not be used in a fan supplement. So far, most of what Embers is can be covered by fair use, but there was an explicit declaration that no fan content would contain the rules for character creation. Since I had already written them, I was forced to cut them from the document. So the example of Character Creation can’t really be a true example, and it makes sense that the excisions would make it unreadable. Without the okay from a CCP.hf executive or a lead writer of Onyx Path, I cannot undo the excisions.

But first, let’s see what people think of this list, because it means putting off the rest of the line (as well as the illustrated version of this release):

Dynasties is a supplement spearheaded by PaladinDemo that will explore Z-Splats both by setting and by the powers that they provide (likely special laws for Edicts).

Hearts Fall to Earth is a supplement further elaborating on the Dreamtide and its denizens (particularly the Deep Ones and the Shayatin), as well as explaining mechanically what happens when an Oroboroi Heart is lost in another para-dimension and must make its way back to the Daylight (as well as special Ablutions that can only be learned from the owners of these travelling Hearts).

Innsmouth Chronicles will be the GMC conversion of Embers, detailing not only the necessary adjustments to the rules but also a city on the edge of the Thicker Waters built by dreamers in service to the God Machine, working to construct a bridge to Pandemonium so that they can invade the world’s subconscious.

Leliel

Shock speaks truth.

Part of the inherent horror of Dragon is that they are representatives of an earlier, less genteel age when holding the biggest sword and being the most skilled at using it was, in fact, indicative of your right to rule. We like to think we're bigger than that now, but the thing is, that's actually a really good byline when true anarchy is involved; humans desire structure and order, it's part of being a pack predator, and a hierarchy with the biggest and smartest predator on top is a natural one. If all civilization collapsed tomorrow, then the people with the biggest guns would, if not warlords of the forming city-states, at least be the generals and lieutenants of the actual kings.

A dragon has a pretty large sword in the form of what he actually looks like, and if he's smart...yep. Hence why other Ourobouri won't help you defeat Heartseekers without extra leverage, since if the Heartseeker wins, there's a more competent dragon who is going to be completely divorced from any political rivalries in the wings-a potential ally.

Thing is, our genteel civilization?

It's the product of the people with the biggest sword and the most skilled with using it choosing to give up some of their power and authority to build a better world.

Hence Ethics, or Duty; resisting the temptation to revel in power alone, and so leave the world worse than when you came.

Shock

TheKingsRaven wrote: Shock wrote: I would say less of purely Pride intermixing with Duty. As much as it is your Right to rule, It is your Duty to rule well. Dragon draws heavily from the chinese concept of the Mandate of Heaven where Emperors/kings who govern correctly will see long reigns until their death while despotic and tyrannical ones will see upheaval and challenges of their rule by mere mortals until fate produces their successor.

Then base them on actual pre-european Chinese monarchs. They have the duty to rule well, defined by archaic standards that do not agree with modern ideas of individual rights.

Dragon's morality shouldn't punish them for acting like a feudal Chinese emperor. It should encourage it and feudal Chinese emperors beheaded a lot of people.

Indeed they have but I need to do more research behind it (Romance of the Three Kingdoms, The Legalism Classics, etc) before I can conceptualize how that happens. The other thing I am wondering how much of the Ethics are determined by external factor. For example, The high Ethic Dragon may be simply having a bad day when a neighboring low Ethic Dragon dumps his cast off into his territory.The high Ethic Dragon has three options:

1. Somehow engage them into being something that improves the Domain. 2. Kick them out. 3. Kill them all.

Using the Mandate of Heaven as a rule, the first two are acceptable and if some get killed while the Dragon is kicking them out, then it shouldn't effect Ethics that much provided the Dragon gave the option to the people before hand.

The last one will break the Mandate and a few Ethic levels to drop along with fate producing some people who will escape the purge and continue to make trouble for the Dragon.

And this is a massive hint for the ST on how much trouble a Dragon currently has in their Domain and how much it should feature in a game.

Once I get that out of the way, I need to see about writing the errant for Dragon to allow for it (After I deal with how Dragons age)

Vree

Stupid WW forum ate the post I was writing all evening. Sleepy & disappointed.

I'll start rewriting it as far as I get and then I'll wrap it up in the morn'.

1. Now, let's not be hasty there. It would be unfair for me to suggest huge changes to a game I only just read. I'm really touched that I am being taken seriously, but I freely admit that a lot of my impressions are probably hasty, exaggerated, or unfair.

Is someone maybe in the mood to run a Dragon game? Rpg.net has place for play-by post.

2. I wrote up some alt ideas for Fossilization. (lost them now, tho) I think that "being challenged by a mortal" comes up often enough, is easy enough to do, (+servers as backstory for dragons-to-be gaining their heart) that it should be an Ethics sin to refuse a challenge and let others deal with rather than answering it personally, instead.

Heart Loss: (will definitely retype this idea cause it was the best from the lot)

Responding to CJC's: "Strip out Deprivation and replace it with Fossilization."

To kill a dragon you must destroy the heart AND the body; losing the heart makes the dragon mortal but does not kill them. However, it gives them 0 effective Furnace so they can not regain Breath in any way (they do not lose Breath they had left tho). So a dragon can try to reclaim their Heart or steal a new one in the time they have left. (Some go all out in battle, others try to conserve the Breath they have left and try to find others to task with finding their Heart.) Voluntary Breath transfer from other dragons is possible, but this only stretches out the time: rather than taking another Health box of Fossilization ever day, they take another every MONTH, as long as they get Breath from someone daily.

Mechanics: can't pay your daily Breath, you put a dot under your leftmost Health box and so on every additional day. If you take B or L damage in a marked Health box it is upgraded to Aggravated as petrified flesh shatters and breaks off. Healing Fossilization: As soon as you can pay your daily Breath, you remove the rightmost dot under your boxes, and so on from right to left every day you continue to pay daily Breath until you are cured.

Also you suffer these penalties: (compare dotted boxes with total max Health boxes) 1/4 Fossilized: -1 to all rolls and Speed; visibly fossilized body parts (finger, shoulder) but possible to hide. 1/2 Fossilized: all rolls and Speed halved. Body covered in large grey areas. 3/4 Fossilized (1-2 Health left): All Attributes at 1. Speed is 2. Speech possible but visibly difficult. Thinking slows down and dragon is constantly half asleep. Dreamtide creatures gather like flies around the soon-to-be dead dragon exploitiong that it is too weak to defend itself, hastening his demise unless chased away.

(Comments on prev comments and such coming soon)

I'm quite excited about this (as you can see from my above idea write-up).

Actually, in my head I split the dragons into 2 (+1) types:

True Heart:

The dragon's Heart is still in their body, rather than hid away in a safe location.

In exchange for this frailty, the dragon does not need to spend a point of Breath a day. Their Heart naturally infuses their flesh with mystical energy, and the dragon is still "whole". This is the state closest to the original ancient dragons.

Immortal:

The dragon removed his Heart and hid it away, making death only a temporary nuisance for them as long as their Heart is still intact somewhere. This comes at a price, though. Though it is not immediately noticed, the wholeness of the dragon's physical and supernatural body is broken, and the body is slowly dying without the enrgy neccessary to maintain it. The dragon must spend a point of Breath every day day to cancel out the slow degradation of their body. A dragon who can not fulfill this wll be subject to Fossilization.

Heartless:

A dragon whose Heart was destroyed or consumed by another dragon. They are unable to operate their Furnace, and so they can not regain Breath. Unless they are able to acquire a new heart, a heartless dragon is doomed to slow death by Fossilization.

CJC wrote:

 Adjust Death. Not only does it trigger a permanent derangement EVERY time (as opposed to on a failed Ethics roll), Death inflicts 1 Agg damage upon the Heart. The Heart itself heals at an incredibly slow rate, of one bashing wound per year, one lethal wound every 192 years, and one aggravated wound every 672 years. They can be healed by supernatural means, but being disembodied they require ten times the effort.

Waaay too complicated. Just the loss off a Furnace dot when you revive is enough. If Furnace is 0, the Heart dies.

(alternatively (although I'm against immortality: If Furnace would be reduced to 0, the dragon enters a long, long sleep where their Heart was. (The legend of dragons sleeping for hundreds of years under mountains.) They remain asleep until their Furnace manages to raise itself naturally by 1 dot. This may take years or even decades. Use the Time Slip rules on p. 159.

Or, y'know, that can just stay what happens on a regular death.)

CJC wrote:

 The Saintly Devils need to be incorporated into the standard Oroboroi (just as they are in “The Evil Within us All” setting hack found on page 161 of Chapter 4). Each Method will receive one of the triggers.  Slayers are triggered by Wrath.  Finders are triggered by Sloth  Challengers are triggered by Lust  Tricksters are triggered by Greed  Inheritors are triggered by Pride In addition, this will require the creation of a new antagonistic sect. For this purpose I have thought up two new methods:  Bargainer, who receives her Heart from a supernatural exchange (usually a pact with a Deep One). Her “Bad” mode is triggered by Envy, and her favored attribute is Resolve.  Dreamer, who receives her Heart in a dream and becomes a weapon of Pandemonium. She is a vessel of an ancient Dragon that was usurped by one of the original Oroboroi, and that alien god takes control of her body whenever she witnesses an act of Gluttony on par with a Vice’s fulfillment (and fails her roll, just like any other Saintly Devil transition [though they’re all saintly devils with this adjustment]). Her favored attribute is Composure.

This change gives Embers a much bigger hold on Jekyll/Hyde horror, where witnessing the wrong wretched act can turn you into a wretched fiend.

I'm not so sure about this, first like @Raven I'm in doubt if Jekyll/Hyde is the right theme for Dragon at all.

Secondly, I consider the current 5 Methods to be the best part, and I do not get the same vibe from the new ones.

I would like to read and understand the Five Evils philosophies idea in more detail first, I think.

CJC wrote:  Using the matters discussed in this thread, adjust Hoard and make it a full-blown mechanic of the system instead of a merit. Likewise, introduce the Muse mechanic and de-emphasize regular food as a means of accruing breath. Our Oroboroi should be turning to shiny things, kidnapping, and gasoline to keep themselves fueled, not restaurant binges.

Oh, I'm fine with Hoard being a Merit. Just remove the Resources requirement, and add a nice story hook excuse to what other hoards can exist is all I'm thinking.

If you add the Maidens/Muses I'll be so touched. (In fact, I kinda feel like roleplaying one.)

Meals: I think an easy adjustment would be to simply increase the size of the required meals. For example:cows. You know how in stories dragons raid villages and eat their livestock? I also had the idea brewing in the back of mind that the reptilian UFO beliefs would, naturally, be perfect to be used for dragons. So cattle mutiliations are simply hungry dragons!

So maybe regular meat (cows, pigs, sheep etc.) is fine. But you need a lot! It is also possible that you will have to at least partially transform to kill and prepare them, giving good breeding ground for stories. And ordering tons of meat to your home or having your own slaughterhouse is similarly suspicious.

(I actually used a similar rule for Pathogen: The Infected, although not sure how that'll end up. The idea of the original Pathogen was that you are like a video game character, going around regaining power from fizzy drinks and pizza slices. What I will likely end up doing - sorry for the derail, just want to assure you that there won't be overlaps - is that each X- splat will have their own method to regain power points, and one of the 5 on the X-axis will have "having to eat a SPECIFIC type of food" (covering anything from blood suckers to brain paasites). So, quite different from yours.)

CJC wrote:  Rework and rename Dragon morality. I’m going to need some ideas for this one, though, because I’m stuck.

I agree with Raven that some more demands that relate to being a ruler would be good, but onn the other hand, I am also attached to the idea of keeping it down on the level of regular morality and close to everyday problems.

Her's a write-up on the philosophy of what Mandate could be aiming for, though I have not come up with any new 10 step scales. I do not want to overemhpasize the ruler's duties either.

Mandate

The dragon's right to rule comes from his divinity, and was tasked to him by the Powers Above. Of course, since nobody can know what the Powers Above want, any usurper can claim that the Dragon is upsetting them without having to show any evidence.

Dragons were born to rule. It is said this birthright comes from the Heavens themselves, and this is why they have placed the dragon on this earth. In the modern times, this argument is increasingly replaced by the idea that the same mandate originates from the common people: a dragon naturally rises to his position as a leader due to being stronger, smater and more charismatic than others around him, and upholds his position by being more virtuous than others.

You can read more about how dragons handle the concept of legitimacy in the section that details maintaining your Province. [to be written or in the Dynasties book, I think Dragon core should have a section for it tho.]

Yet, this divine right comes with heavy duties, summed up in the dragon's Mandate.

First, a dragon needs to meet the duties that come with having subjects; fate calls for him to be their protector and their judge. The strenght of his body and mind, even his own well being, must be devoted to his subjects' well-being.

Second, the ruler himself must be a picture of virtue. Someone that can not control his own urges and morals has no right to judge over those of others. A leader must exercise self retraint in all things, commit himself to his duty, and seek peaceful solutions to problems.

Most dragons realize that there is no perfect road; even virtuous dragons sometimes resort to the philosophy that the end justify the means, and make small sacrifices to avoid making larger ones. Immoral leaders, of course, take this to the extreme. A corrupt dragon call for a war under the flag of "protecting his people", while his people are in fact the ones who pay the toll and suffer the most from the conflict. A dragon may judge a person over some minor detail, hiding from himself the true reason they want to get rid of them.

A. self-perfection clausules: these match the old dragon Ethics and regular Morality more or less. They express that the ruler is himself, at the end of the day, just a fallible person. They have bear the weight of the decisions they made as a person, as a mortal being, even if they did it for the greater good. Dragons who in their hubris think that their greater responsibility means they do not have to answer to the same rules as others are on their way to moral degradation.

B. ruler's clausules:

I have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what these should be. I even have my problems with "Not demanding tribute" from the old Ethics (isn't that the sign of a good ruler? - although the explanation text about why it is important and symbolic helps a little). So here are some TOTALLY RANDOM ideas I may not even like. Just food for thought. I hope we can do better.

8 - Sharing your throne/Province with another dragon.

The dragon's code says: There must always only be one ruler.

There can be other dragons in the realm if they are visiting, or if they swore loyalty to the other dragon (which in most cases is seen as a sign of weakness that no strong dragon will willingly do - it does happen though between family members, or if the dragon in question is old/sick enough to need the ruler's protection).

Obviously, time to time, it happens that there are two dragons in the same city, forced to share and suffer each other for the sake of peace.

6. Failing to uphold your Province. (Abadoning your position over a Province. Staying some where for an extended period of time without claiming it as your Province.)

5. Failing to take responsibility for the deeds of your servants.

The path of a ruler is not an easy one, but the king is not allowed to blame his subjects for the ruin that is caused under his reign; as their leader, he has to take responsibility for them whether he believes they were his fault or not.

If an underling committed a sin under your name you must 1. apologize 2. punish the person appropriately. What you must NOT do is claim that, because you did not know about it, it was not your fault.

2. Giving orders for genocide, torture, or war. etc

CJC wrote: Dynasties is a supplement spearheaded by PaladinDemo that will explore Z-Splats both by setting and by the powers that they provide (likely special laws for Edicts).

I look forward to this, and I think there shoudl actually be rules for political combat in the core book too.

In particular, I think we have a strong impression on how dragons are different from vampires:

Vampires are democratic. Even the Invictus, the most authoritarian of all the covenants, is more like a group of leaders who each have their own individual vote and who share control over a city. While the Prince is the unqestioned overseer of a city, he too is more of a first among equals pressured by the political influence of the major covenants of the city.

There is no such situation with dragons. There is a single absolute ruler, and although he is expected to live up to certain very high expectations, if he does not, there is not much you can do except try to overthrow him. There are just no brakes built into the system that would let you second-guess the ruler. And so political games are much more focused on who can curry favors with the king, and who can be the next one to inherit the next absolute ruler (that will inherits the Heart).

CJC wrote: Hearts Fall to Earth is a supplement further elaborating on the Dreamtide and its denizens (particularly the Deep Ones and the Shayatin), as well as explaining mechanically what happens when an Oroboroi Heart is lost in another para-dimension and must make its way back to the Daylight (as well as special Ablutions that can only be learned from the owners of these travelling Hearts).

The Dreamtide is one part of the game that just does not want to add up to me. Changeling had their own dream walking, Princess: The Hopeful (despite all my butting in and yelling...as if they asked for my opinion, lol) has their own Dreamland, shadow-worlds are done by other gamelines too, what it is about your people dolls that is special or fits dragons at all? Genius:tT got away with making their own "collective dreams of humanity" (direct quote from your book) because it made them The Realms Of Mad Science, places where scientific myths & dreams go to die, that is: places where you can have thematically appropriate adventures (like going to Mars and fight pulp sci-fi aliens, or visit Orwellian dystopias) that would have been impossible to reconcile otherwise with the "real world". What I would think long and hard about is how to make the Dreamtide into something that lets you explore dragon myths and ideas in new ways.

Example:

The Dreamtide is the home of the Old Dragons, a place of ancient reptile dreams from the times of long ago. The souls of the Old Dragons (both those that died in the real world and those who did not originally travel through) lay here in eternal slumber, and it is said that the real world on the other side is nothing else but their dream; their collective thoughts in their sleep is what upholds the fabric of reality and the borders between the different worlds. The Dreamtide is inhuman and alien, having been formed before mankind even made its first steps on the planet, a harsh terrain similar to a prehistoric Earth (dinosaurs might be here). Here a dragon truly understands what it means being a dragon.

Of course, now there are other things here now - noghtmare things that escape from time to time from the Old Dragons' dreams, things that were once kept away or down by the Old Dragons that now run rampant, and other things that now that the Old Dragons are in permanent sleep, try to make this place their home.

Or:

I really enjoyed the write-up about the Solstice (more than the whole Dreamtide section, actually). A land of light and fire and divine power that the dragons can connect to is also something exciting that I would love a lot more than the current one.

Here's another gift from me: dragon slaying rules! They help to give dragons more explicit vulnerabilities, emphasizing the risks that causes that they are dying out, and they refer to the WoD Core rules, which will keep the rules simple and keep White Wolf happy.

Dragon Slaying:

The vulnerable spot:

There is a long honed tradition for killing a dragon: piercing through their Heart with a sharp weapon.

A dragon-slayer who wants to attempt this has to use the "Stake Throught The Heart" rules (World Of Darkness Rulebook, page 165).

It does not matter if the dragon in question isn't a True Heart (and so they have no actual heart that could be targeted. Damage to this area upgrades all Lethal damage to Aggravated damage. IN addition, the armor reduction from "Impervious Hide" does not apply. (Artificial armor protection works the same as always, but a dragon of course, can not take those with him when he changes into True Form.)

If the dragon in question was a True Heart and the damage fills their rightmost Health box with Aggravated damage, piercing the heart destroys both anchors the dragon had to life (their Heart and their body) in a single strike. The only "tiny" drawback is that doing so completely destroys the Heart as well. (Of course, this rarely bothers a true dragon exterminator, and rarely do they even know WHY it is important.)

Ripping out the heart:

Rather than Firearms and Weaponry, a person can use Brawl to rip the heart out whole.

Ripping a heart out of its owner's chest uses the Grappling rules you can find in the World Of Darkness Rulebook, page 157.

First you must establish a Grapple using Strenght + Brawl -4 (for the location) minus the dragon's Defense, and must achieve at least 3 successes. If you are successful, the character thrusts their fist into the dragon's chest and grabs their still-beating heart. The dragon can attempt to break free on their own turn using their own Strenght + Brawl. If they do not succeed, the attacker makes another roll on their next turn which is Strenght + Brawl - the dragon's Stamina. If they succeed, they rip the heart out.

This does not kill the dragon, but they lose the bonuses associated with being a True Heart.

If the dragon (or someone else nearby) can not wrestle the Heart away from the attacker, on their next turn they can do with it as they please: consume it (making them a newborn Dragon) or destroy it.

If the heart is eaten or destroyed, the dragon becomes one of the Heartless. (=can not regain Breath and will soon Fossilize) In addition, they likely have suffered the following damages in the process: - Bashing damage equal to the successes rolled by the attacker when they reach into their chest is upgraded to Lethal damage. - The number of successes they roll as they rip out the Heart is dealt to the dragon as Aggravated damage.

CJC

I'm on the fence on this one (the Heartless thing). While I can see the benefit of not dying instantly when the Heart is lost, it does bruise some of the threat as the Dragon has the opportunity to acquire another Heart. But maybe that's a good thing. Would it change the Dragon's method if they acquired a new Heart through different means? Let's see what Shock says. I definitely like your True Heart adjustment, though.

Well, it's not as complicated as it sounds. The Heart has 5 health boxes. If all five boxes are filled with Lethal, it starts to bleed to death, and if all five boxes are filled with Agg, it dies. So the Dragon's body dies, and the Heart has to work overtime to transmit the energy necessary to revive the body. It's essentially a heart attack. As for the weird healing times, the Heart maintains its biological clock by having an incredibly slow metabolism. As such, a regular bashing wound (which would normally only take fifteen minutes) takes an entire year to repair. The other two lengths of time were calculated based on the ratio of bashing damage to lethal damage and bashing damage to agg damage (192 years is to 1 year as 2 days is to 15 minutes, assuming a year is 365.25 days long).

I CAN make this mechanic more exciting, however. When a Dragon's Health meter is filled with Aggravated damage, she must roll Stamina every hour. Failure means her Heart suffers a point of bashing damage and she does not begin to resurrect. Success means that last aggravated mark on her Health meter turns into a lethal mark and she begins to resurrect. It is still resistant, and she still must escape all Health penalties before she can rise out of her coma, but she is alive regardless.

These two new methods were intended as a purely antagonistic element, because the current dragon antagonists (the Scholars of the Five Evils) would be absorbed if this change were to occur. They’re the equivalent of the Pure or the Seers of the Throne. I had a little trouble thinking of more ways someone could ‘acquire’ a piece of property, so I turned to the supernatural. So… is your objection about using a method as a source for antagonists, or more about the Five Evils absorption in general? If you’re not against methods for antagonists, but you oppose these particular ideas, do you have any thoughts on an alternative?

EDIT: If we don't go the Five Evil absorption route, I've thought up alternative drawbacks for each method.

 Slayers cannot surrender. They may flee a fight they are losing, but they must finish the fight eventually. "I don't care if you are sixty feet tall, I'm going to kill you! ...Eventually!" I am so screwed!  Finders cannot allow misinformation to go uncorrected. They can't help correcting grammar, half-facts, and even mis- inferences of their own diabolical plans. "No, you're wrong. See, the gas leak was just a red herring to distract you from the C4 I've packed inside the refrigerator." ...Oops. Looks like things are going to blow up in my face. Again.  Challengers cannot refuse a challenge. They can find ways to weasel out of COMPLETING the challenge, but they must meet at the appointed time and at least begin the designated activity. "Tennis? Sure! I've never played before, but I've been dying to give it a try. I'm free Tuesday." Well shit, now I have to learn how to play Tennis.  Tricksters cannot refuse a bribe. They can weasel the terms and negotiate into the ground, but if money is put on the table they MUST take it. "Twenty-thousand to buy out all the houses in my neighborhood for your corporate expansion. *Flinch* Okay. What are you building again?" The people in my Province aren't going to like this...  Inheritors cannot refuse an invitation. If they are offered to attend a gathering, they must at least make an appearance. "So that's at the Hilton Airport Lounge at 8 pm, yes? Well, I've got an appointment at the Hospital across town at 7:50, but... I can move some things around." This isn't going to look good on my quarterly evaluation.

I suppose requiring a certain Degree of Divinity (2, the only one guaranteed to a Furnace 1 Oroboroi) and increasing the size of the meal consumed… perhaps even requiring it to be raw… will help abate the comical ‘binge’ sessions the game has suffered with up to this point. I will think about this.

Well, it is from the Dreamtide that the original dragons (not the Oroboroi who usurped them) emerged. They began existence as old gods, ideas invented by fledgling humanity to define phenomenon that could not be explained. In essence, they were Nightmares (the Dread-munching variety), but Nightmares that breached the Miasma and became real. But Man is clever, and he stole the power for his own. Perhaps the Dreamtide prevents the fossilization that Heart-Extracted (and Heartless) Oroboroi suffer. Perhaps in the depths, wounded original dragons sleep to regain their power. Maybe Jormungandr is at a precipice between the Daylight and the Dreamtide, waiting to rip them both asunder (and guarding his unbelievable treasure).

The Solstice is like a Black Hole. At first, it cannot be perceived, because nothing escapes its grasp. When you pass the event horizon, though, you are blinded by all the light that cannot escape. Push past this scouring energy though, and you are met by cold, unforgiving darkness. Here the pull of the Solstice grows more severe. Deeper and deeper into the darkness, where shadows grow long, you are compressed and broken by the pressure and sensory deprivation. Finally, you are crushed into a singularity and converted into a new form of energy, one capable of escaping the Solstice's pull. ...At least, that's what Mortals see. There are shadows of both great and terrible men that fight the pull of the Solstice. These legacies are too great for the cleansing flow of the Solstice, so they seek to slip the bonds and find their way back into the world of light, that their message may be heard anew. They are what make men make war. They are what make men kill. They are the radioactive waste of the soul. These shadows, if they can escape the Solstice, fragment into the Hearts of anyone they can, inspiring them with great ambition and greater darkness.

The Solstice is essentially a glimpse into the Multiverse. The idea could easily be adapted to the original dragons, in which case the dual personality would make more sense. If we could come up with some imagery about what you actually get to SEE in the Solstice (forgotten inventions, alternate versions of famous historical people who never got a chance to live, terrible Super-Volcanoes...), it might be viable for a rewrite (most of the fluff would need tweaking, but it sounds like that's going to happen anyway). Or perhaps the Oroboroi go to both?

EDIT: To make the concept a little more clear... You're walking down the street, and you decide to take a left. But what if you had turned right? According to Multiverse theory, the 'you' that turned right would play out the rest of his life in an adjacent dimension, having split from your dimension the instant the decision was made. In the World of Darkness, however, things aren't nearly that nice. Every time a decision is made, a hairline fracture to the Solstice rips open and prunes all the other possibilities from existence. The 'you' that would have gone right finds himself in a cold, quiet copy of the road, alone... save for anyone else whose path the decision to go right would have influenced. Being essentially an encapsulated 'rapture', all the entities cut off by the decision are forced to fend for themselves... and fend off the denizens of the Solstice. Shayatin in particular like to prey on these isolated 'turn right' humans, and Deep Ones are always nearby to make bargains (such as a promise to guide them home). While this is going on, the structure of this 'alter-street' is warping, being overlaid with other realities that are slated for deletion. And a psychological magnetic force drives the weak of these 'turn right' humans into the Solstice Wilderness, where they will be crushed into oblivion to form fresh, clean Potential. So the World of Darkness has one correct path, and that is to turn left. All the other possibilities... all the other outcomes... they are pruned by the Solstice and crushed into dust. It may need a few more antagonistic types, but it's a pretty good start.

Well, she can if she spends a point of Breath to prevent it from being torn to shreds! Also… shouldn’t Impervious Hide still count? I mean, the chest is one of the most protected spots, and there’d likely be plated scales there if the Dragon has that Ablution. Maybe if they found the vulnerable scale first… But more on that in a moment.

I want to combine these two systems. You must first strike the sternum with an exceptional success (errata’d in WoD Core after Hunter came out) and cause at least one lethal wound, and then grapple and rip. Simply stabbing to kill, on the other hand, is a one-shot deal.

Shock

The Heartless are interesting but I would say it would happen very rapidly rather than slowly (a day at most). This amplifies desperation and instead of Fossilization, you simply get a human mortal being that get's left behind rather than a Fossilized Dragon. Also, Once the dragon is killed again, it's dead for good (if it was dead before the heart before the heart was eaten, it remains dead).

As for Methods. I personally don't think it should change the Method due to the desperation involved and getting the heart back simply reaffirms the Dragon mandate.

This being said, I am thinking up a rite of where a Dragon can voluntarily relinquish his rule without being killed (mostly because people's main complaint about the game is the old have to die) but now suffer aging twice as fast. Mostly saving it for the next book.

The Scholars of the Five Evils are meant to be dark reflections of Dragons who go mad while in power. They don't have any particular organization or grand agenda to kick the Domain following dragons in the rear (like the Seers or Pure do to their counterparts). Instead the horror comes from what they do. A mayor may genuinely love his city (his domain) to the point where he can't stand to see people dishonoring it. So as a result, he sets up a lot of a busted down old swimming pool, dumps the criminals/hobos/unfortunates that he's killed in his patrol in it, and let's it rot and fester. He takes Pride in doing that. After all, He's just looking out for his city.

I believe the way the Gepetto described it to me as "These guys are so saintly, so genuinely good that you would feel disgusted of yourself by simply meeting them. You see them on the streets, asking people what they need and then delivering on it. They are so convinced that they are doing right (and by most accounts they are) that you will be ashamed for even thinking that they could commit atrocities.

...But they do."

In the same vein of how Hitler lead convinced an entire nation to rally behind him (or Pol Pot/Mao if you want a eastern example) only to realize the horror that the madness of their leader had brought them, The Scholars are in the same boat. They do marvelous works of altruism. They conduct terrible atrocities. They are a moral compass endlessly spinning so fast that the needle threatens to fly off. They are insane. And most of all, they are very dangerous.

In all honesty, The Dream tide surprised me. For the Dragon's "Other Land", I had planned on connecting it to the Lower Depths for a number of reasons.

1. The Lower Depths are the home of things which are used up. It is beyond the Underworld and from it, there is no coming back. Using this as a backdrop for Dragon is good for thematic reasons. It shows where the race will end up if shit doesn't get fixed soon. Down with all the other used up crap.

2. Several of writers hinted at it but never really defined it. It presents a major opportunity that has yet to capitalized on. A major hint of inspiration was the following:

Now consider this: How would "Creatures of cold" react to Dragons? They can fly and clearly have some abilities to give the Dragons trouble. Interesting parallels to be drawn.

3. The ability to redefine the landscape specifically for Dragons. The Lower Depths are a cold place without meaning nor much substance. They are cliff edges where time ceases to exist and the concept of dark simply doesn't mean anything. There are pools where things gather around the occasional oasis of substance that trickles down from the upper worlds and the fighting for it is brutal beyond moral kenning.

4. Of all this being said, what lies hidden within those barren wastelands lands? A place where death has no hold or meaning. A place where time exists only in sporadic moments. A place where decay means nothing and the future is meaningless? What could live out here? What could thrive out here?

But then again, The Dreamtide is linked to pandemonium so the imagery could live on as something else.

Vree

I'm looking for the part in the book where the dragon's heart having its own Health track serves some purpose. If you know it, please point me to it.

The heart bleeding if the dragon is wounded, heart attacks and spasms, is great fluff, really nice, definitely should put that in the text, but complex mechanical details creeping from it into the game should be kept at a minimum.

Making the Heart a 'thing' with +4 health and +4 Durability, rather than a storytelling tool... I think this is just a subconscious drive to make the dragons better protected, but it does not make for good storytelling. So I finally penetrated the defenses of the enemy's Lair, tricked out his servants, unlocked his safe, I have his throbbing heart in my hand, and I...Start to smash it around? I'm having a battle against an inanimate object? Or maybe I take it home and start to work it with a diamond drill? Does that make for a good story?

Now, what MY character would do 9 cases out of 10, is just eat the Heart. Seriously. Is all the hassle worth it, just to avoid an extra Degeneration roll? Even better, just carry around a human and have HIM eat it. Ethics 7 sin, and I don't have to make a roll at all; dragon just drops dead.

I mean, 90% the time the GM will just drop the dragon down my neck as soon as I start messing with the heart. F@ck that sh@t. I feed it to Fido.

I think you can see why I tried to avoid the "heart destroyed, dragon immediately dies" rule and replace it with slow death, as well as why I'm trying to put destroying a heart and eating a heart on equal difficulty. (And letting an NPC eat a heart should DEFINITELY not be a choice made out of convenience.)

I'd also like to point out that per the rules for a Killing Blow (WoD p. 168), if I have a target that can not defend itself, I can apply my die pool to it as direct damage. So ALL this artificial fattening and Durability/health box dumping, in the end, really achieved nothing.

Now, this is how it would look in my book: - The Heart has a single Health box. (Size 1 object, where did that +4 even come from?) NO Durability. Not because it does not make sense, that stuff about being immune to fire for example should definitely be in, as well as description how the heart is larger and tougher than any human's; but because the challenge should revolve around challenging the dragon (fighting, beating him in political competition, or at a game) or locating the heart and the treasure hunt that leads to reaching it. The same stories that the Methods are about, really. It should NOT be about 1001 ways you can destroy the heart with explosives and such. (Never, ever should PCs be encouraged to make their strategy revolve around such sillyness.) If you have reached the Heart (or wrestled/won it), then you have WON. End of story. The only epilouge left to tell is if you decide to claim that power, or destroy your hated foe and stay human, or show mercy, or maybe gift that power to someone you think is more deserving. - I'd probably move "destroying a Heart" to Ethics 3. Eating one (when you already have one) can stay at 1. Dragons should be allowed to kill each other. (Again, there must be more threats that make dragon scarce.)

I mean, F@CK, killing a dragon is already near impossible, why do we have even more brakes and make it a morality sin, too? (At Ethics 1!!!) If a dragon is an evil bastard, I should damn well be allowed to take his life! It is bad enough that I have to jump through hoops and kill him twice to do it.

So, Ethics 3. Not 4, you realize it is planned murder, you realize it is an act that culls the already small dragon population. But you should also realize that dragonkind is already sorta doomed in that respect and survival should not be done at the cost of forgetting what virtues makes dragons better than others.

I'm thinking hard how we could avoid giving another dragon's Heart to a mortal being the no 1 choice for both killing dragons and making new dragons. Maybe THAT should be an Ethics 1 sin. It goes against so many of the themes. (For starters, what Method does that dragon get? - Disinheritor?) I wish it was just flat out impossible.

Back to Heart...The only rason I see for keeping it and not only treating Furnace as the Heart's hit points is to make the book different from Promethean/Geist, who already did the Morality/Power stat loss on death thing. That's a weak reason though. (I don't play Promethean, it does not affect me if they do it the same way.)

CJC wrote:

I want to combine these two systems. You must first strike the sternum with an exceptional success (errata’d in WoD Core after Hunter came out) and cause at least one lethal wound, and then grapple and rip. Simply stabbing to kill, on the other hand, is a one-shot deal.

Sure, though note that that's asking for 2 Exceptional Successes in a row, plus a grappling that lasts for several turns. And of course, Brawl does not benefit from an equipment bonus.

But I guess that's fine. It just means that you must weaken a dragon first, then perform this muti-step manouver, probably. (idk if "weakening" is possible with the WoD system and the bonuses reforged dragons get tho.)

You have a similar Vulnerable Spot concept already hinted, tho, so you don't have to go with this one; I was merely trying to expand that one and make it a bigger actual threat, and making it cost the Heart's destruction and use the default core rules seemed a good idea at the time.

CJC

EDIT: Scratch that.

Instead, Dragons roll for derangement (skipping the degeneration roll) when they die. Failure means they acquire a Death derangement. Success means they get to resurrect. Three failures means the Heart has destroyed itself in the attempt, and they CANNOT resurrect.

Heart had five hit points because it was size 1 with Durability 4. According to the WoD Core, it would have a structure of 5.

If you strip out the durability then yes, it would only have one hit point. I have no problem with that, nor with it being helpless. It's an easy change to make.

As for the 'stabbed through the heart', I meant that if you are stabbing with the intention to destroy the Heart, you need only get an exceptional success (just like staking, this is fatal). If, however, you wish to claim the Heart with your bare hands (as you described), you must first pierce through the sternum (just like staking) and then remove the Heart as a grapple maneuver.

So if you want to destroy the Heart in combat, it's one action and an exceptional success (Stab). If you want to claim it during combat, it's three actions, but only the first must be an exceptional success (Stab, grab, pull).

EDIT: I am definitely the odd-man out on this Five Evils Idea, so it will remain a setting hack. I do have another interesting point to raise, though, and that's the idea of transplanted memories. The real para-science behind it is sort of questionable, but as a World of Darkness setting element it is quite inspired.

I found an theory posited by one Doctor Armour in 1994 that declared the high-density of neurons in the heart and its relatively independent transmissions could mean a type of 'support brain' exists in the muscle, and this secondary brain might incidentally store certain memories. The theory can be expanded to its logical conclusion, that not only the brain but every neuron in the body acts as backup storage. If a piece of one body is transplanted into another and integrated into the new host's neurological system, then bits of stored data from the donor could be transplanted as well. Like I said, the science is weak in the real world, but it's an interesting topic to explore in a game like this. After all, each character in this template is technically a donor recipient.

Vree

Switching to some praise to counterbalance the critiques above:

The old Dragon cover with the loose heart is great. I hope it gets kept.

I'm enjoying the Deep Ones. Organ stealer aquatic, to match the dragons' heart obsession? Good stuff.

Am I correct that there is a bit of pre planned Leviathan crossover cosmology in there? I think you mentioned cooperating with @Raven before, and these are clearly the same guys as the god-cretures of the Rift.

Which I actually find pretty cool, and since we were talking about cosmology, I should mention how I secretly imagined these games to add up:

There are human dreamspaces, but these are young, not quite real (strongly separated from the physical world), not self supporting (depend on leeching on human dreams, and would die immediately if humans disappeared).

But there are others that are older. They originate from times when the difference between real and non-real were not as strict as they are now. They are metaphysical, a mix of both thought and physical substance, but also real in both senses. Someone travelling to them in his dreams, but leaving them through a physical road; for these lands such things are in no way contradictory.

These lands are ancient. They do not contain traces of human thought, because humans as such did not exist yet (or maybe only as monkeys on the beach) when they were formed. If someone travels here, they usually do so due to an unusual ancestry that connects them to these planes.

One of them is the Rift, from Leviathan; a great primordeal sea. It is a remembrance from the times when all life existed in the waters. The Rift is alien, untameable and dangerous (constantly ravaged by a wild Tempest).

The Dreamtide is in between the Rift and the human world; it has borders with both. While the Rift is a scary place, the Dreamtide is much more "humane". The dragons who lived here invented themselves many of the concepts that were later borrowed by mortals, such as language, society, order, laws, agiculture and such. The Dreamtide is also a lot more "understanding", if there can be such a word. It is intelligent in a sense that it can accept things like different types of moralties, and logic over emotion: it is not an absolutist place that deals in concepts, like many other places in the WoD. Is it connected to human thought? Maybe. Maybe there is something in ancestral memory that occassionally allows a human to dream back this far, although it is rarely pleasant; in the times when the Dreamtide was formed, humans were prey or cattle. Yet there is no question that the Dreamtide also invokes a time of legends and heroes in the human mind.

- ...Or something like that. lol What I wanna say is that I do like the Dreamtide, even if my conception differs a tiny bit.

The Lower Depths: To be honest, from the Mage Watchtower bit, I still don't get it what the LD is supposed to be about. ^^; So I can't really comment on that.

Quote: So if you want to destroy the Heart in combat, it's one action and an exceptional success (Stab). If you want to claim it during combat, it's three actions, but only the first must be an exceptional success (Stab, grab, pull).

Ah, you're right, sorry. The second roll is not Exceptional, though it is still done at -4 (body location) minus Def with Str + Brawl only I assume.

Yeah, that seems quite fair.

Quote: I am definitely the odd-man out on this Five Evils Idea, so it will remain a setting hack.

Well, I only said yet that I have not studied them thoroughly enough to dare to give an opinion. Though I gotta say, it didn't quite come through to me from the text that they were supposed to be the baddies, opposed to the other Philosophies. Maybe I'm just naive, lol

I would definitely love to play with the relationship of dragons with virtues/vices. Here's the thing: in the East dragons represent virtues. In the West, dragons represent sins (the 7 heads of the dragon, each a different sin and whatnot). So a merger where the dragon has more virtues than others, but also has to deal with being drawn to more sins, would be a PERFECT merger of the two mythologies.

Idk how one could do that tho given that in the WoD Vices are a boon, too.

I kinda had this thought that you could do stuff like:

Have the player assign a Vice to each step on the scale on Ethics 1-5, and a Virtue to every step on Ethics 6-10. While they are on that level, they can use the secondary Virtue or Vice as if it was their primary one. (They still only get to do it once per scene/session, but they an extra choice.)

Then, when the dragon goes Hydra at Ethics 0, they 'unlock' the last Vice (the one they have not written anywhere - 5 assigned to Ethics levels and 1 primary adds up to 6). The Hydra becomes a "picture of sin", and can no longer regain WP through virtues.

Instead, a Hydra works like this (maybe this can be adapted for the current Hydra, too):

A Hydra has a primary "head" and a primary Vice. They use this Vice normally (1 WP/scene). Additionally, they may indulge in any other of the 6 Vices left, but they may only do so once per session. In addition, if the Hydra grows extra heads, each takes on a personality based on one particular sin: one is gluttonous, another is violent, etc.

I have been doing some reading on jade...Initially I thought that jade would not be a proper material to make weapons from, and a damage adjustment like Werewolf's -1 die for silver might be appropriate. I was surprised to learn that jade is in fact a very hard and mallable material, definitely on the level of common hard metals.

So I wonder if maybe a short historical explanation about what jade is should be added, lest the ignorant reader like myself thinks that jade swords were only added for "coolness" and without much afterthought.

For example, here is a short summary I found on Swordforum.com:

Quote: What is jade?

Unfortunately yu and yushi in China refers to different stones through out Chinese history. Today many stones are marketed as jade in China for commercial reasons. Most visitors don't see much true jade even in the museums. The true jade and the 'Stone of Heaven' in Chinese history is nephrite jade called ruan yu or soft jade, because of it's soft silky feel and soft subtle colors.

Jade weapons were used very early in Neolithic China because it is a very tough stone. Jade is not hard. Infact it's hardness is about 5.5 to maybe 6.3, glass has a hardness of 7.0. But other stones and materials available in Neoltihic China were far more brittle.

Because of the special properties of jade it quickly became the cremonial reserved for the royal family only. By the late Neolithic it was not a major source of material used for battle weapons except for some arrowheads. With the advent of the Bronze age jade and stone was completely replaced by bronze as the weapon material.

Almost all the jade sword and knife-like weapons and those with jade hardware found in China were cerimonial weapons. Different colors and quality of jade was reserved for different levels of the royal hierarchy. The most precious jade reserved for the emperor was white mutton fat jade. It had a slight yellowish or pink tint and the silky feel that was like the feel of a woman's skin.

Also, this section:

"(such weapons would have to be made from scratch, as dragons are holy creatures in China and a weapon designed to murder them would never be forged)" is superfluous; obviously you would not order a jade blade mentioning that you will be using it to slaughter a dragon ("What, you crazy?") What you would do is seek out one of the traditional jade manufacturers (of which there are many) and order a decorative sword. You may need to pay a little more, but other than the money you need it is not at all a challenging task.

Also "would never be forged" is rather misleading when in fact China is their biggest advertiser & distributor, and makes a nice profit from making and selling ceremonial jade weaponry.

Heartless:

This was born from a number of different things.

One was to support the new Fossilization mechanic. If Fossilization is the result of failing to spend the daily Breath, then I wanted an extra reason why that would occur.

Also to support the themes. I love the Challengers for example, the idea that a dragon would gift a heart to a mortal willingly. But the idea that then they just drop dead seemed extreme. I at least wanted to give them a little time to go out with dignity.

I also had this imagery of an old Emperor dying (as it would happen in medieval Asia) with all the lesser generals and sons around him waiting for him to finally die o that they take their chance to claim his throne.

Fossilization is bascially my key to loading the dragons with dying and sickness, which would be themes very difficult to explore otherwise. ('cause of that blasted immortality thang)

So no matter how Fossilization ends up, it should be a way for a dragon to die slowly, and PERMANENTLY. Maybe it is a sickness of the Heart or whatever.

I think we can agree that Fossilizing at a rate of 1 health box per day (as CJC originally set it up) is for the best. That gives them ca. a week. A day is too small a time span from a storytelling POV (PCs decide to rest for a day, boom, they missed the action), but a week is perfect; even if they mess around, they should make it in time to talk to the half-Fossilized dragon. Like Shock said, sense of urgency is served better that way too.

Quote: The Heartless are interesting but I would say it would happen very rapidly rather than slowly (a day at most). This amplifies desperation and instead of Fossilization, you simply get a human mortal being that get's left behind rather than a Fossilized Dragon. Also, Once the dragon is killed again, it's dead for good (if it was dead before the heart before the heart was eaten, it remains dead).

I didn't quite follow this - are you saying that rather than Fossilizing, a dragon should become human again? Maybe even get back his old template? THAT I'd not agree with (should be no turning back), but just getting dragon abilities blocked may be OK.

I don't know if you read Grimm's tales in your youth, there are quite a few where a monstrous foe (a dragon or a giant) hides their life or strenght away (Dragon was likely part inspired by these obviously). One of them goes like this:

The adventuring youth is given a room for the night by the giant's wife. Naturally, the giant finds out and challenges the youth. ALSO naturally (for these stories) the wife betrays his husband and tells the boy that he keeps the source of his strenght hidden: in a boar, inside which there is a deer, inside which there is a rabbit, inside which there is a small bug. The boy hunts them all down, finally squashing the bug as it spring forth from the dead rabbit. When he goes to the giant, it has lost all of its power, so much that he can barely stand, and the boy kills him with ease.

In the same way, it is possible that Heart loss would really rob a dragon of all his powers, like using Ablutions and Edicts or spending and regaining Breath. (including loss of all current Breath as mentioned above too, of course) But I think that should not mean that Fossilization does not happen as well. You're a dragon, and you can not go back and can not live for long without a Heart.

Something else - I don't know if you thought of this but I really REALLY want ways to force people take on a dragon form. It is just fun. Perhaps at lower Ethics, the dragon slips into dragon form unconsciously? Eg. Ethics 4 or so means he changes when asleep? Or maybe sleeping on a Hoard or eating cattle for Breath requires the form? Idk

CJC

I'll admit that my research into Jade was fleeting. I used Hard Jade (Jadeite) instead of Nephrite mainly because it was harder, so it sounds prudent to change it over (if Nephrite is truly the Stone of Heaven).

Also, I was unaware that there were any weapons made of jade. The only images I could find were small statuettes (which was probably because I was searching for Jadeite and not Nephrite).

Worth adding to the to-do, definitely.

I'm sold on the Heartless, I just wanted Shock's okay before I added it to the to-do.

As for forced transformation... it's better if it happens while they are awake. But what element would we use to trigger it? Stress? Excitement? (Hulk smash!)

Could they be forced to manifest ablutions that exceed their bandwidth, thus ripping their flesh and causing lethal wounds?

This all sounds quite engaging, actually, and further pushes the 'Dragons are symbolic of Willpower' angle of the template.

Vree

Challengers:

I love the imagery that a character may win the Heart from another dragon in a riddle game. But I want to give the dragons a reason to act so. (It is their life they are playing with!)

Hence, proposed Ethics changes if we rework them for Mandate or something.

'No one dynasty or king has a permanent right to rule.' (adapted from the Mandate Of Heaven)

= If a dragon is beaten fair and square by a worthy opponent, they are expected to submit to them. This can have overarching consequences for the dragon: if they competed over the Province, the dragon must give up his power and move on. If the contest was over the Heart, the dragon must hand it over, even though it'd mean his (permanent) death.

This ties in with a sin at a different level: "Never refuse a challenge." Essentially, if someone challenges the dragon for the Heart or the province, he must comply, or he will risk degeneration.

Ethics 9 - Holding onto a position or even your Heart, even though you know that there exists another candidate who is more deserving. Ethics 6 - Refusing a direct challenge for your Heart or your position. Ethics 3 - Not honoring an agreement for the prize a lost challenge.

So, basically, it works like this: - If someone challenges the dragon, he probably sizes up the enemy. If he thinks the enemy is stronger than him, then if he is a very moral dragon (Ethics 9), then he must face the challenge simply for the sake of getting beaten and handing over his position, because Ethics 9 tells him that he should not hold on to his position forcefully if a better candidate is found. But such dragons are rare. What will likely happen instead is the lower-Ethics dragon (say, one with Ethics 6) will try to decide if he can beat the opponent or not. If they think that the enemy is too powerful for them, then they may back out and suffer a degeneration roll. Furthermore, everyone will know that the dragon is a coward. Therefore, if they think they DO have a good chance to beat the enemy, then they MUST accept the challenge (even though logically they could just ignore it). The famous dragon pride has a mechanical reason to get displayed by the players. If they win, great - they avoided a degeneration roll & losing face. If they lose, they face another challenge - should they comply or should they refuse?

This would also take the place of the current Fossilization rule: the reason dragons fear a challenge from a mortal not because it turns them into stone, but (as a preface of the Methods) it may cost them Heart or Province. Even the mechanics can stay the same: the mortal uses Presence to address a challenge to the dragon. If he is successful at getting it accross that the dragon can not simply shrug it off with a joke, then the dragon has no choice but to agree and if it comes to that, face the consequences.

This would also aid the creation of new dragons. Realistically, unless this rule exists, the dragon can born to is that of a Slayer or a Finder. He can not be a Challenger. ('Cause no sane PC dragon would agree to it.)

Draconic Language:

The Language merit was one of the things that got Errata'd from the WoD core book, it subsequently costed a single dot per language. (As in GMC, except in GMC you have a second option to pick 2 different languages you only half-know.)

Since Draconic's only purpose seems to be to give the player a "secret code" (can be easily achieved in other ways, albeit fun) and for story hooks, maybe rank 2 or 3 should gift the character with some degree of power - he knows the language of the old dragons, and can use them to power something. (I think Mage used something similar.)

So maybe a 2, you can enter the Dreamtide a bit more easily; at 3, your Edicts get a bonus. Something like that.

I was reading the Ablution list for Finders. I was disappointed to see that they have only 2 that actually deal with finding things, and one of those two is a simple Investigation/Computer skill bonus.

So I came up with a new power that could replace one of the current Finder ones. It can also be adapted as a general dragon ability.

Scent (Finders)

Tells: The dragons nostrils make a whooshing sound when they suck and blow air. At Major, they wake winds, making objects around them waver back and forth with every breathe.

Dice pool: Wits + Survival

A dragon can find objects using their scent. They can sniff out people or animals, hidden treasures, maybe even a dragon's buried Heart.

A dragon's nose is not as sensitive as, say, a werewolf's. However, as a special talent, dragons can sniff out metals. A dragon can differentiate between any type of metal; they can tell the type (eg. iron, gold etc.) and even how much alloys contin from each (and of course, if certain jewelry are authentic or not).

Tracking rules in the Werewolf rulebook (page 178), but a dragon is more focused on finding hidden objects than following others.

A dragon's nose can also act as a warning, smelling humans nearby (fee-fi-fo-fum). They can differentiate between two types of creatures (can identify a human or an animal or another dragon, and will sense most supernaturals as "something different", although they won't know why) but their nose is not sensitive enough to give more information than that. They can, however, smell blood, and so they can tell if the unseen person was heavily injured.

As a Finder ability: The Finder dragon can sniff out precious metals, such as gold, even if they are buried under the ground. If not all dragons can smell metals (which would be logical), they also get the above bonuses - differentiating between metals and telling their composition by sniffing/tasting.

True Form is unlocked when you have every Ablution manifested. Doesn't that mean that it is better to have fewer Ablutions?

For example, my character would gladly take a single Ablution in exchange for the goodies you drop here: +1 to every attribute, all damage is downgraded...

It sounds it is better if apart from the obligatory dots during character creation, you do not buy more Ablutions, ever.

Basically, it seems like it would discourage you from buying more Ablutions.

+

It seems there is a big difference between Furnace 1 and 2. At 2 I can reach True Form in 5 turns, while the adversary still must spend another 5, so I have 5 turns to turn him into shreds with my bonuses. What do you say to that?

CJC

On sniffing metals out of the ground... I like it, but not enough to write it up as an Ablution. Because... if I write another Finder ablution, I have to write another one for EVERY other method (as well as a new one for the Deep Ones). If we can come up with a new Ablution for each method, then it'll be okay.

I'll try to think of something better for the second and third dot of Draconic. Maybe PaladinDemo will have an idea, as Draconic was his addition.

There's no solution to the Furnace thing without altering how Ablutions are manifested. We could simply prune the True Form bonuses, though, since Degree of Divinity serves the same function without discouraging the purchase of Ablutions.

EDIT: Prototype Mandate list 10 Looking down on a mortal. Going a day without manifesting an Ablution. Using a Muse. (Roll five dice.)

9 Allowing an insult to go unchallenged. Holding onto a position (or even the Heart) when there exists another candidate who is more deserving. Using an Edict for personal gain. (Roll five dice.)

8 Sharing a Province with another dragon. Accepting a bribe. Failing to honor the fallen. Keeping more than one Muse. (Roll four dice.)

7 Gifting another dragon’s Heart to a mortal. Telling a lie of omission. Failing to correct misinformation. Going a week without manifesting an Ablution. (Roll four dice.)

6 Refusing a direct challenge for your Heart or your position. Harming a mortal to protect a loved one. Surrendering. Taking revenge on a mortal. Using a Graft. (Roll three dice.)

5 Theft of any kind. Killing a mortal to protect the province or a loved one. Failing to take responsibility for the deeds of servants. Failing to uphold the Province. (Roll three dice.)

4 Inflicting collateral or emotional damage on one’s own province. Killing a mortal for convenience. Refusing an invitation. Building a monument of power at the cost of mortal lives. (Roll three dice.)

3 Taking violent revenge on a mortal. Serial Murder. Destroying the Heart of an Oroboroi. Making a scene at a formal gathering. Not honoring the agreement for a lost challenge. (Roll two dice.)

2 Cannibalism of either the Oroboroi or Mortal variety. Mass Murder. Giving orders for genocide, torture, or war. Harvesting another dragon’s Red Pearl. (Roll two dice.)

1 Participating in Torture. Using Jade in a fight. Killing a Muse. Making a Graft. (Roll two dice.)

Vree

I did find some evidence to the contrary, as this knife claims to be made from Jadeite. But everything else I saw is definitely rounded. While on the other hand, Nephrite knives seem relatively common. As for what the largest weapon that a character could reasonably acquire, I believe it would be something similar to this bad boy. It seems that most "swords" actually draw a limit around machete size. In theory it may be possible to make something bigger (human-sized jade slabs exist) but I don't think the GM should allow that.

Which is actually not so bad for us; access to Aggravated damage should be limited. But it should be mentioned in the text that knife size is about what a character can presumably acquire. It kind of puts a cap on swirling jadeite swords, but perhaps that is a good thing. You can either bring a giant slaying broadsword or a jade knife that deals Aggravated, you can not do both.

Looks good for a first go! (not that I can't suggest a lot of alterations)

Gifting another dragon’s Heart to a mortal. - As I said above, this really ought to be a greater sin. This is another way to achieve the permanent death of another dragon, and should be as great a sin as destroying a heart. The heart you give to somebody should always primarily be your own; you should not be able to trick out a degeneration roll by feeding it to someone instead.

Using Jade in a fight - I guess this is fine, but Jade weapons (or whatever equivalent we settle on) should be the sign of high status, and Oroboroi should flaunt them proudly. If we go with what I said above about Jade weaponry avaliability, then they are also actually not neccessary always better than large weaponry. Finally, note that in Werewolf, using silver weapons is only a morality 4 sin. I think you put too many things to morality 1 that are actually not that evil, even justifyable. Killing a Muse for example.

Destroying the Heart of an Oroboroi - See, I don't really know what to do about this. Part of me wants to make it morality 2. The big problem is that heart belong to a dragon. If there was a way to have the heart change "ownership", without feeding it to someone, it'd be a differetn story.

That's actually a problem with the whole heart-removal thing. You eat the heart of a dragon and become a new dragon - then you immediately pull it out and hide away. What sort of process has taken place that decided that the heart is "you" now, even though it is not in your chest? How does the Heart "know" which dragon it belongs to?

If you could suggest a good solution, you'd also solve the problem with gifting hearts of other people in one go.

Giving orders for genocie or torture - I feel that everything that the dragon gives a direct order for should count as a sin on the same level as if he commited it, so these should be morality 1. In fact, the dragon is MORE responsible for what his followers do, not less: he may degenerate as a result of stuff his followers did even without his orders if he is a proper leader, I feel. So, 1.

Muse - Muses really fall under the same category as other humans for the most part I think. Slavery or kidnapping would probably be their own sins, as is murder.

Accepting a bribe. - This one is cool. Ties in with your responsibility, and invokes ideas about government corruption (quite rampant in the East).

Inflicting collateral or emotional damage on one’s own province. - Not bad, got me thinking how the "collateral damage/arson" is applicable to dragons. Maybe it is not a sin if you go on a rampage in an enemy province? Interesting. (Humans have a responsibility towards society in general, but dragons define duty in terms of their province - I like that.)

Surrendering - Lol! Interesting. I'll think on this, too. (What is better, a leader who refuses to give up or one that knows when to let go?)

Harming a mortal to protect a loved one. - I wanted to askl before, is there a reason this is emphasized?

CJC

Well... originally it was there to express preferential treatment and the protection of the 'court'. But... using nepotism is a trait unsuited for a leader. Perhaps it should experience a mandate penalty, putting it down at say... 5? And the killing to protect a loved one? 4.

I'll try to throw in a sidebar that sins committed by an Oroboroi's direct subordinates can trigger mandate rolls, albeit one grade higher than the sin's level. Deniability does get some measure of the scandal stink off, even if a good leader wouldn't (or shouldn't) throw a subordinate under the bus.

EDIT: Second Attempt 10 Looking down on a mortal. Going a day without manifesting an Ablution. Using a Muse. (Roll five dice.)

9 Allowing an insult to go unchallenged. Holding onto a position (or even the Heart) when there exists another candidate who is more deserving. Using an Edict for personal gain. (Roll five dice.)

8 Sharing a Province with another dragon. Accepting a bribe. Failing to honor the fallen. Keeping more than one Muse. (Roll four dice.)

7 Telling a lie of omission. Failing to correct misinformation. Going a week without manifesting an Ablution. Negotiating with an enemy. Posing as a god. (Roll four dice.)

6 Refusing a direct challenge for your Heart or your position. Surrendering. Taking revenge on a mortal. Using a Graft. Kidnapping a mortal. (Roll three dice.)

5 Theft of any kind. Killing a mortal to protect the province. Failing to take responsibility for the deeds of servants. Failing to uphold the Province. Harming a mortal to protect a loved one. (Roll three dice.)

4 Inflicting collateral or emotional damage on one’s own province. Killing a mortal for convenience or to protect a loved one. Refusing an invitation. Building a monument of power at the cost of mortal lives. Using Jade in a fight. Ordering a subordinate to break the law. (Roll three dice.)

3 Taking violent revenge on a mortal. Serial Murder. Destroying the Heart of an Oroboroi. Making a scene at a formal gathering. Not honoring an agreement. Gifting another dragon’s Heart to a mortal. Mass Abductions (Roll two dice.)

2 Cannibalism of either the Oroboroi or Mortal variety. Mass Murder. Harvesting another dragon’s Red Pearl. (Roll two dice.)

1 Participating in Torture. Making a Graft. Giving orders for genocide, torture, or war. Participating in Slavery (Roll two dice.)

Shock

I was actually suggesting that if the Heartless doesn't get a new heart, they die with their corpse returning as a human. The idea is that being a Dragon is akin to a King or Emperor while the Dragon's heart is seen akin to the crown of the europeans or the Imperial Seal of the Asiatics. A king without is simply not a king at all and nature takes due course which you are left with a mortal human rapidly dying from a lack of a certain organ. Power has been transferred to the new owner and the old one is left in the dust.

But then again, I am intrigued with Fossilization so I starting to wonder if that is the way to go.

Vree

What do you think about these guidelines for Jade weaponry:

- Jade is difficult to carve. Being harder than most materials, ancient artisians had no choice but to wear it down very slowly; today, diamond-edged saws and drills are used to work it. It is quite impossible to give jade the same flatness and edge that one came to expect from steel weapons. As such, all Jade weapons receive a -1 to their damage modifier. - Jade is exotic. Most historical Jade weapons were ceremonial, and were reserved only for royalty. Jade weapons cost +1 Resource over their listed price in the WoD rulebook. - Jade, however, is extremely durable. Harder than steel, it can put an edge on your Swiss Army Knife or machete. All Jade weapons receive +1 Durability.

Jadeite VS Nephrite: Although historically is is Nephrite that was considered to be the "true jade", Jadeite works just as well on dragons. Jadeite is rarer and more difficult to work with, so it will likely cost more. Functionally it works the same as Nephrite jade.

(EDIT: Let's remove this bit about large weapons and just go with the -1 die, +1 Resources, +1 Durability rule. The reason is that it did not occur t me that axes/spears (requiring only a smaller peace of jade - the head) are much easier to make or acquire. And if someone decides to use this to make a Jade broadsword for 4 Resources...F#&@ it, let them have it. It is cool enough. Large weapons: Few jade weapons were historically larger than a short sword or machete; all such would be one-of-a-kind or custom made. So, we adjusted the size and Resource costs.

So, the character could acquire weapons similar to these:

Jade Knife (letter opener) - 0 Lethal, 0 Size, cost: OO Jade Short Sword - 1 Lethal, 1 Size, cost: OOO Jade Sword - 2 Lethal, 2 Size, cost: OOOO)

Jade bullets: Bullets need not only be hard, but must also possess sectional density to allow them to push through and penetrate the target. Jade has high hardness but it is not very dense, so it'd make for sloppy bullets as they'd just bounce off if the target wears any kind of armor. Still, if your GM wants to allow it, treat them the same way as you would treat other jade: the player pays +1 Resource dot higher for the custom bullet and weapon, and suffers a -1 to damage.

CJC

We've got five methods, and humans have five senses. I think each method should improve one sense for the Dragon, and the Ablution "Keen Eyed" (Two of Hearts, page 79) should be tweaked to accommodate this.

First, the improved senses. Each method improves one sense, and can activate it for a point of Willpower:

Slayer -> Hear Fear A Slayer's sense of hearing is improved dramatically, to the point where she can detect the sound of a heart in the chest, the speed of respiration, and even the churning of the stomach. As such, she can determine how mentally and physically strained someone is. When the enhanced sense is active, the Slayer knows exactly how much Health and Willpower a person in earshot possesses. He can also detect the absence of a Heart, allowing him to recognize another Oroboroi.

Finder -> Smell Treasure A Finder's sense of smell is exceptional. She also gains the bizarre ability to detect the worth of objects by their scent. Her nose essentially becomes a metal detector while this enhanced sense is active. If she smells jade when searching near another being, she is really detecting the jade threads and can conclude that person is an Oroboroi.

Challenger -> Feel Talent A Challenger's sense of touch borders on the indescribable. From vibrations on the ground and in the air, a Challenger can sense how talented someone is just by standing near them. When this sense is active, the Challenger knows how many dots of a skill a nearby person possesses. She cannot detect attributes, but she CAN tell if the person is capable of Degree of Divinity (and thus if the person is an Oroboroi).

Trickster -> See Heat A Trickster's sense of sight surpasses the greatest snipers. She can adjust her eyes to see a combination-view of night-vision and infrared, detecting both heat and very low visibility light.

Inheritor -> Taste Danger An Inheritor's sense of taste is bizarre. She can actually detect danger as a bad flavor in her mouth. Her taste-buds react to pheromones in the air, and can tell her when she is in imminent physical danger. If she would be poisoned, attacked by surprise or ambushed, or placed in peril by an unseen weapon (like a booby trap or a bomb), she experiences an unpleasant sensation on her tongue informing her (possibly) that something bad is about to happen, provided the sense is active.

Each sense would require a Wits+Composure roll (perception) to provide the dragon with its benefit. And again, they have to be activated each scene with Willpower, so the dragon can't just leave them on.

Now, to tweak the Ablution Keen-Eyed (Two of Hearts) -> Keen Senses (Two of Hearts) Not everything has an extensive back-story or mythical justification. Sometimes dragon anatomy is just better than mortal counterparts. Points in this Ablution increase Perception rolls on a one-to-one basis. This Ablution also grants the dragon the capacity to utilize the enhanced senses of other methods. Each foreign sense she wishes to activate costs one Willpower for the scene. While this Ablution is manifest, her native method sense is also activated for free (it does not refund Willpower if she paid to use it without the Ablution, though, as doing so circumvents the tell) Type: Sequential Cost: 1 Willpower to use a different Method's sense. Dice Pool: Wits + Composure Action: Instant Roll Results Dramatic Failure: The dragon succeeds in tapping into the other sense, but the contrast is so overwhelming she loses the sense completely until she rolls successfully on Composure + Stamina.

Failure: The dragon fails to tap into the extra sense.

Success: The dragon succeeds in tapping into the extra sense, and gleans some sort of information associated with the sense.

Exceptional Success: In addition to Success, the dragon gets to keep her Willpower point.

Tells Minor: Depending on the senses modified, a different part of the body forms archaic symbols. For sight, it is the surface of the dragon’s irises. For hearing, it is the inside edge of the ear. For smell, it is the edge of the nostrils. For touch, it is the fingerprints. For taste, it is the surface of the tongue.

Moderate: As minor, but the symbols glow a soft red.

Major: As moderate, but the glow is bright red and is visible from a distance (and even when the eyes are closed, or the fingers are in gloves, or the tongue is tucked away).

Jade weapon guidelines look good. I'll write the new to-do summary after a few more replies, so people don't get turned around by all these conversations.

Vree

I think for now I need to focus on separating the stuff what I suggest as additions (for the supplements) and stuff that I think could be fun tweaks, but optional/not neccessarily better or worse than the current version, from what I think are things thatmust be addressed before the core book is done.

For example, Muses/Maidens can easily be an add on in a next book 'cause you've already got Hoard. Methods are fine like this, and while I'm not against tweaks (fun ideas you posted), it can go either way. I have some ideas written up on Province management & social/political games, and I think the core book could use a short summary, but if they get left out and added later, no big deal.

On the other hand, "hot spots" I definitely want to fix before the core book gets finalized:

- figuring out the Heart. I'm not happy that the Health bar does not have a practical justification, that should either be removed or given new mechanics; revival must be capped and put more in line with other WoD books, the imbalance in gifting another dragon's heart (its comparative easiness over destroying a heart/how it reconciles with the themes) must be figured out, permanent death must be figured out (the Fossilization additions are a great start) - Ablution mechanics and True Form/Divinity degrees, I want to investigate/test these, see if we can identify any issues and if small fixes are needed. There are options to do this, for example if I recall correctly Werewolf uses Survival + power stat for transformations (so, it uses another stat beside the power stat which takes care of the x2 jump between Furnace 1-2) and I think Ablution manifestation could easily become an extended roll. Only if we find they are neccessary, of course. - List of Ablutions/Edicts: I'm still digesting these. For now possible issues to me: all the good social abilities are in the Inheritor tree. Edicts pale in comparison. Since all the other Methods are very combat & defense focused, Inheritors should be too and some of the social bonuses should be Edicts and avaliable to everyone, because the Edicts are weak in the social area (in my mind, that kind of thing (Province management and so on) should be one of the Edicts' core theme. I loved the group effect abilities for example.** The Finder Ablutions need at least one power switched for one that fits their Method's theme better.

I think most of the abilities and approaches are excellent (I love the Willpower-boosting powers for example), I just want to make sure that there are no imbalances between categories, or single powers, and everything as handy as it can be.

** Again, I'm still reading through so no judging yet. But I kind of envision Edicts as giving you different approaches to what sort of leader you are, and what your major ruler's duties are. There is an odd "artielly control" Edict for example; those would get collected in Edicts Of War. You know what I'm getting at?

Definitely more stuff coming from me on all of the above, but if you want to make a to-do list, those are what I see as secondary matters ot proirities.

Maybe I'll start marking my contributions: Optional (O), Add-On (A) and Priority (P). lol. Optional = current mechanics already work, possible alternative is not neccessarily better or worse Add-On = not a problem if this is only added in a supplement Priority = must be investigated/fixed in the final core book

CJC

On the Heart Bar I resolved to remove it a few posts ago. A dying Oroboroi makes up to three derangement rolls, each representing the Heart's attempt to restart the body and the brain dying from lack of oxygen. If one or two fail, the Oroboroi acquires a Death derangement the next time they resurrect. If all three rolls fail, the Heart destroys itself in the attempt, and the Oroboroi is dead for good.

On gifting the Heart It was supposed to be easier to hand off a Heart than actually destroy it. The Oroboroi are clinging to life, and if someone is not an appropriate member it is better to test your luck with anyone off the street than permanently decrease your negative-growth population.

On Death and Fossilization To summarize the ways real death can occur: Dragons can age to death, though they age at one tenth a normal human rate. They can turn down the heat of their Furnace to extend this lifespan, crank it up to shorten their lives, or 'clean out the hearth' as it were and start over from the age of their prime (though doing so is an extreme matter, and probably needs some ritualization to support it). In addition, they die when their Heart is destroyed (which will be due to fossilization from lack of Breath in our adjustments), and they die when their Heart fails to resurrect them. They may also choose to commit suicide by fossilizing voluntarily, inflicting one 'shade' point for every point of Willpower spent to that effect (this was not in the book, it will be added with these changes and is necessary for changes to the inter-chapter stories). Finally, if they go into a realm invisible (like the Dreamtide or the Solstice) and they perish, their body cannot resurrect and they are effectively dead for good.

On Manifestation by Furnace So Skill + Furnace would affect Manifestation? I can see some merit in that, but it would also make certain skills indispensable. Also, it could spawn a worse problem: The guy with [Skill] 5 at Furnace 1 manifests ablutions 6 times faster than the guy with [Skill] 0 at Furnace 1. Also, every skill is boosted in some capacity by one Ablution or another, so whichever skill is the 'manifesting' skill would guarantee that every Dragon took THAT Ablution. If we DID do something like this, though, the skill would be Expression. But this argument is the same as the 'huge' boost a vampire gets when they start spending two Vitae in a turn. I don't see this huge boost between 1 and 2 as a severe problem, though. If it is... perhaps it could be an 'every other furnace' feature, so a Furnace 3 dragon reaches his divinity twice as fast as a Furnace 1 or 2 dragon. Or an exponential feature, like Breath per Turn. Manifesting as an extended action is against the core idea that Gepetto built when the game was first pitched: dragons need to be able to change their bodies while they are fighting (or fleeing, or having a conversation). Needing to go hide and roll an extended attempt to turn on their divine features... it doesn't feel right for our game.

Ablution Spread Each method is designed to excel at a particular task, but that does not mean they are exclusive to the task. Any dragon is free to purchase any Ablution in the book except Omission ones (unless a bargain is struck), albeit at a more expensive rate. So distributing the social Ablutions away from the Inheritor, who is supposed to be the socialite, sounds strange to me. Because of tells, using Ablutions for social situations is restricting anyway. I'll let you get to the end of the Edicts before we discuss this more. They're sorted in alphabetical order for ease of quickly locating them for rules reference, but that might make things a little difficult when you're looking for a particular kind of edict. I wrote one for each Skill on the sheet, so you may find what you're looking for.

Thank you again for your input, by the way. As always it is appreciated.

EDIT: Muse will have to be mentioned in the rewrite, because I'm going to make Cameron into Nathan Monroe's muse (the deceased Oroboroi friend of Ivan McGregor, from whom she inherited her Heart).

Vree

Interesting. I'd remove the bit about permanently dying on a failed third roll though. Player death is too serious to be decided on the outcome of a single roll. Instead, if you failed twice, you are revived anyway. You paid a price of 2 morality dots, but you are alive. (So, you can either escape without degeneration, pay with 1 morality, or pay 2 morality.)

That works. Seems fair, and gives dragons a reason to keep morality high. My questions: - Do you roll the degeneration dice of your current morality rating? So, more moral dragons would have an easier time reviving? Or do you use a fixed value, eg. always 2 dice? - How does this affect Hydra - do they return to life without a limit?

Other solutions I have thought of were giving the heart Health dots pruposes. For example, treating the Heart as an extra 5 Health dots written next to your other ones, and work out a mechanic to cause damage to "spill over" to the Heart's boxes. If you are alive, damage to your dragon is always healed first. Once your dragon is healthy, the Heart heals at the normal rates as well. (So it is possible to have a healthy dragon with an ill Heart.) If you are dead, instead the damage to the Heart must be healed first. The revivification process starts once the heart returned to full health.

But I don't think I like that much. Note that this shared damage/healing means the Heart acts as an extra layer of protection in other ways, so it's quite a bit of rework, and it does not quite work as I'd like either (either Heart death is too much of a risk from spillover damage, or the Heart never suffers Aggravated damage so it recovers too rapidly from everything.)

Basically, if the Heart boxes does not have a clear purpose (if they "heal" at very different rates, if they can not take/recover damage from things that happen to the dragon, if it does not have other mechanics that rely on your current Heart health, eg. rolling your Heart health or adding it as a die bonus to something), then the concept should be discarded. As I raged about it above, I'm very much against the player having to perform a "fight" against the Heart to kill it once they ALREADY HAVE IT, so if that's the only reason we have a Health track, good riddance from me.

Gifting The Heart:

One reason I want to remove the extra protection/health from the Heart is because it puts the one who possesses the Heart in a bargaining position, which is something I think was not covered yet in the core book. If there is that +4 Durability, then my dragon can easily go Draco Obnoxisus on their asses because I know that they won't be able to destroy my Heart in only a few turns. For the same reason they have a reason to rush to feed the heart to someone, because otherwise things can get tough for them.

If the Heart has a single box, then they can take their sweet time. They can actually visit a Dragon in person and demand stuff for them. The Dragon, knowing that they can destroy his immortality with a squeeze, HAS to comply. That also gives people more incentive to give the Heart back to the original owner (in exchange for services, of course), or to take their time deciding what they can do with it (if the dragon jumps on them, they can still just smash the Heart to a rock or something). The dragon in the meantime has to come up with creative ways to get his heart back, from sending stealthy thieves/assassins to sending con men/seductresses (and what if one of THOSE decides to keep the heart, and the story becomes their Method?), to hiring the PCs. So the Heart is a breeding ground for all kinds of stories which in my view would not exist if the dragon could deal with the problem himself, confident that the Heart is not so easily destroyed.

The new morality 3 sin: "Not honoring an agreement." is going to be great help for this. It may be one of the more important onces in fact. It ensures that after you give the dragon his heart back in exchange for something, he can not take violent revenge on you.

Dying from old age: I kinda want to tie this with to Fossilization somehow too. The Old Dragons WERE immortal, but a human/dragon body can not support that, so they just live for very long. If we do not have a dramatic way for how this happens, maybe we can just leave it out? It's not like anyone can have seen a 10,000 year old dragonanyway.

Suicide: I don't think this is neccessary. If you wish to die, you simply do it by destroying your Heart or by giving it to someone. Maybe THAT's the reason dragons are so hasty to part with their hearts in the Method backstories. They grow bored with life, so they commit suicide by prizing their Heart to another suitable candidate (which is of course, a part of their Ethics, and the accepted and honorable way for a dragon to die: if you no longer feel you are fit to rule, you pass on the opportunity to someone who can).

Vree

More updates/ideas from me...

Added a small update to the Jade rules on the prev. page to reflect my findings on Jade axes & spears, essentially I removed the ban on large weapons which was the simpler way anyway.

OPTIONAL: Merit reworks! Added a bonus function to Hoard, to make it more interesting. (Also to counterbalance the relative ease of regaining Breath in other ways.) Expanded the Lair description and clarified Security. I really adore the simple single paragraph description in the book, but at the same time, I remember how none of the official books ever motivated me to spend on hideouts, so I added some more colorful descriptions for what each Size rank may give access to. Split servants into a separate merit (as suggested by somebody in a previous thread).

HOARD:

[addition]

There is another secondary function to the Hoard. At any time, the dragon can select a valuable object from their Hoard and turn it into money: sell it, or give it to another character as a bribe or a gift. Essentially, the Hoard can be used in the place of the Resources merit, and it can buy anything up to a Hoard x 2 cost in Resources. This reduces the Hoard's rating by 1 permanently.

The Hoard can also grant supernatural objects. Pretty much anything another supernatural being could ask for (Werewolf Fetishes, Changeling Tokens etc.) can be produced with just a careful search, in exchange for a permanent reduction by 1 dot. If the dragon does not want to lose the dot, they can ask for something of similar value in exchange. Roll the Hoard’s dot rating. A failure means that the Hoard does not include any supernatural objects of the requested type. (This also affects subsequent rolls; once it is determined that the Hoard includes no Fetishes, it can not be searched for a Fetish again until the Hoard’s size is increased.)

These are all objects of minor power (they are rated at 1 Merit dot), and their exact nature and statistics are decided by the Storyteller. At the Storyteller’s discretion, you may be able to find objects of greater power, rated equal to the number of successes on the first roll. Regardless of how important they are, supernatural objects only ever increase or decrease the Hoard’s rating by 1 (as they are useless to the Dragon, and merely count as exotic items).

Use the above guidelines if someone robs the dragon's Hoard, too. For example, if a group of Changelings steal a 4 rank Hoard, they may find valuables amounting to 3 Resources dots and one supernatural object.

Rebuilding a Hoard:

A Hoard’s lost dots can be returned by an expenditure of Resources equal to 2x the desired Hoard rating (paid in one, or in smaller instalments over the course of several months), or if the dragon seeks out an extraordinary treasure (which might well be magical).

(Rationales: As long as regaining Breath is as easy as it is now, Hoard feels a bit redundant. Not sure how it will change, and I doubt many people would opt for perma spending a Merit dot; it's just a fun idea to make the Merit more flexible.

LAIR

Size:

0: A hole in the ground or a broom closet. It can be used for hiding away the Heart, but not much else. 1: The size of a small one-room apartment; it can house a fully transformed dragon, or 3-4 untransformed dragons and mortals, or the dragon's entire Hoard, but not all of these at once. 2: The size of a small house, with 3-4 rooms, enough space for everything. 3: A warehouse or a small farm. Fully transformed dragons are able to fight here without having to worry about collateral damage or detection. It can easily house the whole party and all their belongings. 4: A large mansion or base. There is not only enough room for the entire Den and their possessions, but for dozens other servants and followers as well. 5: An incredible underground cavern system, or a building the size of the House Of Parliament or the Opera House. More dragons than that might even exist in the country could be brought together here, and massive aerial battles can take place as if they happened out in the open air.

A single dot in Size completely negates the Heartbeat bonus for seaches by people who are outside the Lair, although it still applies if someone is searching for the Heart on the inside.

Security:

Security is the single most important aspect of a Lair. This is because dragons need the Lair to hide and protect their single most precious possession: their Heart. A Lair can also house other valuable things: the Hoard; any amount of Resources in cash; or the dragon himself (the Lair is one of the few places where the dragon may transform without having to worry about being noticed).

Security grants two major bonuses. First, it subtracts its dot rating from all attempts to locate the Lair. (Such rolls typically use Investigation, Computer, Streetwise, Survival, etc.) Second, the dot rating is subtracted from all attempts to enter the Lair. The owner can define the type of the protection that applies, which defines what options are avaliable for someone wanting to intrude.

For example, a Hoard on a windy mountaintop may only be possible to approach by helicopter (Drive), mountain climbing (Athletics) or supernatural flight (Athletics for dragons). The Lair's Security rating (representing the natural strong wind and dangerous gorges in this case) is then subtracted from all of these die pools. A voice recognition lock may be bypassed by the use of Subterfuge or Computer, or a strongroom using Larceny or Science (Explosives). The dragon can never completely block these attempts, but she can limit them by applying his Security penalty.

Lairs and servants: A single Retainer or Servant assigned permanently to the Lair is enough to automatically notify the dragon of any attempts to penetrate the security of the Lair. This is typical for dragons who only use the Lair only as a hiding place and not also as their home.

The Lair merit may be purchased multiple times, each time representing a different hiding place. Many dragons own more than just one, some even set up fake ones, filled with traps.

SERVANTS

A ruler requires courtiers - clerks, guards, or advisors. In the modern nights, the 'servants' are usually paid employees that work for a dragon in exhange for a regular fee, although they may just as well be a cult that deifies the dragon, a political conspiracy, or a club.

This Merit is best used to describe groups of people over which the Dragon has sway.

Servants are defined by two stats, Ability and Numbers. When you create the group you may also select a single skill as the group’s Focus. When working on a tasks that fall within their Focus, their die bonus (both the one from individual ability and the one from their teamwork bonus) is doubled. Additinal Foci may be purchased at a cost of 1 merit dot per additional Focus to represent different groups with different specialties who work for the character. A dragon for example may employ thugs (Brawl), bodyguards (Firearms), political advisors (Politics), lawyers (Academics), doctors (Medicine), or entertainers (Expression).

Ability:

Ability is what describes your servants as individuals. If a servant has to perform a task alone without the aid of his team, simply use Ability as their die pool, and double it if the task falls within their Focus. Ability also determines their defense against attacks, whether they fall under physical violence, misdirection, or social or psychological warfare.

Numbers:

0: A single person. 1: A small, tightly knit group of 3-5 people. 2: A bigger staff of 10-15 people. (2 teams with 3-8 members each) 3: Between 20-30 people; a small company. (3 teams with 5-10 people each) 4: 30-50 people. (4 groups with 8-15 people) 5: 50-100 people. (5 large teams or departments, 15-25 people each)

The Numbers rating gives you the following advantages: - Multi tasking: The number of jobs you can assign your servants to at the same time is limited by your Numbers. For example, if you want your bodyguards to guard the entrance of your fortress and also your inner sanctum, you need to have at least 2 dots in Numbers. - Resilience: If your servants roll a Dramatic Failure on a task, or your opponent rolls an Exceptional Success on a contested roll, the ST may reflect it by a decrease in your groups' numbers (some of your servants were killed or they resigned). Your Numbers may also go up or down due to various other events that may happen in your game. If your Numbers are reduced below 0, you lose this Merit. - Teamwork bonus: When your servants are working together, they receive a bonus on the task they perform. If a single team is working together on something, they receive a +1 bonus to be added to their Ability roll. (Use this in the place of „Teamwork” as described in the WoD rulebook.) If more teams are assigned to the same task, the number is increased by +1 for each extra team. If all your servants are devoted to the same task, simply add your Ability + Numbers and use that as your dice pool. Do not forget that acting within their Focus skill doubles these totals in each case.

Servants and Retainers: Retainers and Servant groups can be combined for a better effect. You use your groups to provide background support for the Retainer, or use the Retainer to make your groups perform better.

Treat your Retainer as the primary actor on a task, and apply his own dice pool. Then add the extra dice you'd get from the group's Ability and Numbers as a direct increase. As before, you may double these numbers if they are within your group’s Focus. (The Focus does not affect the Retainer’s dice, although he may perform better at his own areas of specialty.)

Example groups:

High-Class Household Ability: 2 Numbers: 2 Focus: Medicine, Drive, Firearms

International Business Company Ability: 2 Numbers: 5 Focus: Computer, Crafts

Personal Army Numbers: 4 Ability: 2 Focus: Firearms

Criminal Connections Numbers: 2 Ability: 3 Focus: Larceny,

Dragon Knights Numbers: 1 Ability: 5 Focus: Weaponry

Party Of Adventurers Numbers: 1 Ability: 3 Focus: Weaponry, Larceny, Medicine, Occult

Child Labourers Numbers: 5 Ability: 1 Focus: Crafts

Mad Hermit Numbers: 0 Ability: 1 Focus: Survival

Some other OPTIONAL stuff:

I like your take on Lunacy-type effect (mortal response).

Still, it seemed wrong to not even have something similar for True Forms, which are a bit special.

I made this also because I'm not yet convinced that a lot of reforging won't end up as races for the True Form (it might just be me).

So I thought that if the True Form has an associated drawback, then there is a reason for dragons to stop before they get there.

(Anyway, a mortal fear effect like this can be both a blessing and a drawback.)

DRAGON "LUNACY":

A dragon's divine form is a terrifying sight to behold. A mortal who witnesses the dragon's True Form makes a Resolve + Composure roll with a penalty equal to the dragon's Degree Of Divinity.

Dramatic Failure: The mortal's mind is shattered by the visage. The subject is irrevocably insane; if they were PCs, they likely become unplayable. Loss of attribute dots, cognitive or dexterious functions and the ability to speak and act coherently is likely, and the person will be haunted by the memory for years to come. Failure: The mortal is shaken by the experience. The person picks up a Derangement. People may remain on the spot, petrified, flee or attack the dragon, but they have no obligation to do so. Success: The person's mind stays resilient. They continue to act normally, but will forget or rationalize away the event within days after it happened. Exceptional Success: The person's mind remains strong. They fully process what is happening and will be able to recall it later with crystal clarity. They receive a +2 bonus the next time they witness the Form instead of +1.

Suggested modifiers: The dragon is targetting the person specifically: -2 The person already witnessed a True Form before: +1 for each occassion, up to a maximum of +5 The dragon is wounded or subdued: +1 to +3 -1 for each Degree Of Divinity attained

The True Form is as dangerous to the dragon's allies as to his enemies. Most dragons are careful to hide their real nature, so seeing the truth of the monster or demigod they've been associating with can be a nasty shock to friends and subordinates.

A dragon can of course, warn these people to hide their faces or look the other way while they change into their True Form and take care of business, but if they do look they are subject to the effect the same as everybody else.

CJC

Vree wrote: Nah, the speed increasing by itself for every dot is fine enough, I think. I should have read these more carefully, they make more sense like this. small matter: Can you perform normal actions while you fly? Can you 2x your flight speed by spending your action? YES and NO, I assume. (+is there any big rationale for using Str + Sta instead of Str + Dex? not that it matters much, I guess)

Actually, it's yes for both.

As for Strength and Stamina, the Oroboroi (unlike birds) build upon a primate skeletal system. As such, their bones are not hollow, and flight is quite exhausting. Likewise, since the wings are extra appendages, they are not particularly aerodynamic (which is why flight speed is so low for the first few levels of manifestation).

As for the Maiden/Muse debate, I did some quick translations to Traditional Chinese and then Pinyin, and I came up with the following terms:

Wei Hun De (Means "Unmarried") Chu Ci De (Means literally "Maiden")

I know it gets dicey when you start doing translated terms like this, but since it seems to be working with Ablution, I figured it'd be worth a shot. Of the two, I prefer Wei Hun De (or we could call them "Unmarried", like the Oroboroi force them to be old maids).

It's still up in the air whether we're going to keep True Form in its current state. +1 to all attributes, downgraded damage, and extra size... it is a bit much. Maybe True Form should counteract the accelerated Breath requirements of high Degree of Divinity or allow extra methods of acquiring Breath in lieu of giving actual stat bonuses. If we're going to stick with the boost, perhaps we should pick one? Downgrade damage OR boost stats, but not both.

I want to avoid the 'Dragons are scaly Werewolves' angle on this, which is why I feel like a Lunacy mechanic might be problematic. It would need to be different from fear and madness to really set this template apart. Perhaps random uncontrollable emotion? Anger, Anticipation, Joy, Trust, Fear, Surprise, Sadness, and Disgust are the core emotions of Plutchik's wheel. Perhaps failure causes the mortal to involuntarily express one of these emotions, and dramatic failure makes them experience three simultaneously?

EDIT: ...Although, that conflicts with the fear-based damage mortals suffer from Degree of Divinity. I'll need to think on this.

Shock

Actually, I've gone with the idea of not having a Dragon version of "Lunacy" for a variety of reasons.

1. Think less of Lunacy and more of Masquerade. Unlike Magi (who fucked up the universe thus imposing Paradox-Disbelief on everyone) and the Uratha (Who have the patronage of a insane goddess spirit), Dragons are thrown into the same box as their dark mirrors, the Kindred. The universe doesn't cover for their mistakes nor should it.

2. It's de-emphasize the merit bit of Dragons a bit. Unlike Magi (who awaken due to unknown reasons) or Uratha (who basically Luna basically drags the a human into woofy-dom), Being a Dragon is attainable by action (hence why we have Methods) and the reality is that for all their pomp and self-righteousness about being rulers, they are the most replaceable splat out there (Can you steal a Kindred's curse? A Changeling's Wyrd?). You fuck up? Congratulations, you now have more heartseekers on your tail.

This being said, I do like the system you set up except for the forgetting part as it plays into their divinity. I've already stated the game reasons why humanity shouldn't have an "auto-forget" system when it comes to Dragons but for a thematic/lore reason. Rulers as a rule tend to want to remembered by the population. They want to make lasting impressions. From the days of the Pyramids to today. It's always been the same.

Vree

I love the Challengers, and their connection with Willpower and roll bonuses (my next character is totally going to be someone who does not even turn into any fancy dragon forms, just stays human and slices off lizard heads with WP and 5- again boosted sword-cuts), but - do they actually have any connection with their group attribute, Wits? Not a single one of their Ablutions uses it, while on the other hand they have a much bigger need for Willpower (the average mortal's 4 WP isn't much if your whole strategy revolves around Impassioned Effort and Bravo's Crest and Skill Of The Gods), so wouldn't it make more sense to give them a trademark that has a connection to Willpower, like Composure? (all the Resistance attributes seem unfairly ignored here anyway)

That got me thinking about another thing, the Finders - another group that I greatly enjoy, but I regret that they are shoehorned into the "team nerd" archetype. Their methodis about so much more.

So before I knew it - here I go again - I started to think about what dragons would look like with 2 attributes per Method, like vampires. (Please forgive me.)

I wanted to say "I think these work surprisingly well." but considering you set them up that way, it isn't really that surprising at all. Is there a reason why you went with only one stat?

SLAYER

Strenght

Stamina = Stamina Slayers dragons are adept at both using their firey breath to kill opponents from afar, and to protect their own hide better in other ways, like covering themselves in stronger scales. In the case of many dragons, this seems to be a sort of paranoia that they will meet the same violent end that their predecessor that they took the heart from did.

TRICKSTER

Manipulation

Dexterity = Manipulation Tricksters are con artists, while Dexterity Tricksters are thieves and backstabbers. The Trickster did not use her smooth tongue but rather her sticky fingers and fast legs to make an escape with the Heart.

FINDER

Intelligence

Wits = Intelligence Finders search by analysis. Your character may have first encountered a clue about dragons and the location of a heart in ancient tomes, then used computer based GPS analysis to find out what the heart may be found today. The Intelligence Finder's human personality also changes the least after they receive their Mandate, rather their already considerable knowledge is amended by the additional insights beyond human ken that come with their new condition, thus forming the fabled draconic wisdom.

Wits Finders are different. Where an Int Finder follows her intellect, a Wits Finder follows her nose. The dragon did not make complicated plans; he got out in the field, following the trail of another dragon for days, listenning to the faint sound of the beating of a Heart from afar, never missing a clue until they finally led them to their ultimate prize. When these Finders earn their Heart, their dragon manifests as a bestial rather than their human side, blessing them with senses and instincts that could put a werewolf to shame. While Int Finders are wiseman and library-dwellers, a Wits Finder is a modern Indiana Jones or Crocodile Dundee, who can trace down any object or person without fail.

Of course, there is no clear distinction between the two types, and many Finders embody both. And their role in a Den is also the same: the Finder is the group's compass, pointing out the route they should follow. When the party asks, "Where should we go next? And how do we get there?" it is usually the Finder who ansers. Whether they find the road using their senses or by research, the Finder always knows the way.

INHERITOR

Presence

Resolve = Not all Inheritors start out as "charisma boys" (or -girls). There can be any number of reasons why a dragon picks someone as their successor, and that reason isn't always related to social aspects. Without exceptional charisma, these dragons are more envied and have more problems earning the approval of other dragons (and even their own servants) than anyone else. How these dragons keep their position is a sort of iron-clad stubbornness, an unquenchable ambition that makes them refuse to part with their Heart and their possessions. While the dragons enemies may be numerous, their constant attacks bounce off the dragon who proves to be simply unmovable - poisons, social coercion, all turn out to be ineffective. Perhaps most frustrating, these dragons tend to have impressive longevity, still alive and sound of mind when by all expectations they should be dead or should have chosen a successor.

[Okay, I had to push a bit hard to make Resolve fit the Inheritors, but I think it is passable. Plus they get the WP boost. If you do not like it, Res can go to the Challengers too.]

CHALLENGER

Composure = Challengers may well be the most varied group among dragonkind, just as their preferred challenge can be almost anything: your dragon may have earned the Heart by jousting, chess, in a dance-off, through gambling, whatever you can think of. They are all united in some ways though. One is their focus on a preferred skill, the second is their unflinching determination under pressure when they face a challenge.

Composure: At some point, your character had the guts to stand in front of a dragon, and propose a game, with only their absolute confidence in their own skill to back them up. Then, they successfully outlasted their opponent, and focused their effort to where it really counted. This carries on to their dragon forms as well: the Challenger conserves his power, then wins or loses everything with a single decisive effort.

The other stats: With all of the Attributes assigned, the last attribute for Challengers can be anything.

Wits - like before Resolve - the other WP granting stat any skill - pick a skill. That skill is raised by 2 and can increase to 6 dots instead of 5. or my favourite: Presence Challengers - At some point, your character could stand in front of a dragon and issue a challenge they could not refuse. Soem Challengers are not above shaming a normally reclusive dragon in front of others to force him into entering a contest.

The Presence Challenger does not thriump by winnign the contest; they overcome by winning the crowd. Showmen through and through, the presentation and style are as important to the Challenger as the game itself.

--- On a new name for Ethics: what about simply Honor? Too bland?

And since I recognize there is no name for the dragon's transformation into a dragon like "Awakening" or "First Change", Mandate could be adapted for that.

Mandate, the receival of: The dragon's consumption of their Heart causing them to become one of the Oroboroi. Someone who "received their Mandate" received a Heart, and all the advantages and duties that come with it. A dragon's Mandate lasts until they pass on their Heart or until their untimely destruction, ie. it is a Mandate that lasts for life.

--- Cool image/illustration idea fuel

How often do you reckon a character's gonna make a "heartburn" joke in this game?

One more thing... If I were you, I'd change the cost of healing Aggravated damage from 3 Breath to 5 Breath.

Aggravated is a bit special. A lot of splats can heal Bashing and Lethal, but there's usually a "jump" when it comes to Aggravated, and many splats can't even heal it without purchasing a specific power for it. So the fact that dragons can do it by default is already pretty special, it should not be unbalanced too. I don't know which fansplat - Pathogen, I think - did it in a way that you'd have a power which makes you roll: each success heals 1 Bashing, or you can exchange 2 successes to heal 1 Lethal, and you can exchange an Exceptional Success to heal 1 Aggravated. So a 1,2,5 progression for Bashing, Lethal, Aggravated is a lot better, and also so because of the relative ease of regaining Breath. I don't mind it if a dragon can progress at a rate of healing 1 Aggravated daily rather than weekly by spending Breath on it every day, but if you can bounce back from having your boxes full of Aggravated within a day or two, that is wrong. You really need more excuses to make dragons lay sick (because a weak dragon that needs help 'cause it has urgent business and it can't take care of it herself is an EXCELLENT story hook), which is why I tried to make up some sort of sickness like that with Fossilization too. But a dragon that got a good bashing recently is just as good. Dragons have excellent defense with their armor, they don't need to be healing champs like some of the more fragile splats, too. Especially if unkillability "kills" story opportunities instead. I can live with 1 Bashing for 1 Breath 'cause it's sufficiently slower than other splats', but you should adjust Aggravated healing like I suggested too.

Exploding Frogs

I agree that the game could do with a bit of rewriting, but I strongly disagree with folding the Saintly Devils into the Methods. In fact, I think that a part of the rewrite should be to cut out the Five Evils stuff entirely, because it feels awkwardly shoehorned in as it is. It doesn't fit at all with the established themes of the game.

The Five Evils seem to me to be a variation on "Dragons as a metaphor for human sin", which is the classic literary role that dragons have played, at least in Western folklore. But that doesn't really work, because Dragons in this game aren't a metaphor for sin. They're a metaphor for power and divine right and decline. Sin doesn't enter into it. The game tries to justify this by saying that the Embers schools are ways of justifying and taking responsibility for the Collapse, while the Five Evils schools are a form of running away from this responsibility...but that doesn't at all match how the Saintly Devils behave. And while this is a matter of opinion, I have personally always found the Saintly Devils hard to take seriously. Their premise is honestly more silly than disturbing, and they lack the capacity to be a meaningful threat, as a faction, to the Embers schools.

I am interested in the concept behind the alternative Method flaws you proposed, but there are flaws here, too. How do they tie into the unifying themes of kingship, hubris, and decline? What is uniquely Dragon about these limitations?

I think that two of these alternative flaws are an excellent starting point for hashing this out: the Slayer and the Challenger. What these flaws have in common is that they echo how the Dragon got his Heart...and also set him up to go out the same way his Antecedent did. (There's also a suggestion of hubris--of flaunting their path to greatness to the point that it brings about their own undoing.)

The Slayer, who won his Heart in combat, never backs down from a fight--even when he is likely to lose, possibly to a new would-be Slayer. "See how mighty I am," he says, "that I was rewarded thus for my prowess. Is there no one who can defeat me?"

The Challenger, who won his Heart in a contest, never turns down a challenge--no matter what he's placing on the line by doing so, even his very Heart. "See how skilled I am," he says, "that I won such a prize. Is there no one who can match me?"

This suggests certain adjustments to the flaws to the other three methods. I propose the following:

Finders can't perfectly conceal anything--they must always leave riddles and puzzles and clues that a sufficiently clever and determined seeker can unravel.

The Finder, who followed cryptic clues and solved countless riddles and puzzles to track down his Heart, is compelled to leave such hints whenever he conceals something precious to him. "See how clever I am," he says, "that I discovered such a prize. Is there no one who can solve my riddles?"

Tricksters can't leave well enough alone. They are drawn to dangerous company--the company of the kind of deceitful and treacherous rogues who can really appreciate them, but who are also the greatest threats to their Hearts.

The Trickster, who conned a master of the con into giving up his Heart, plays a dangerous game of masks and treachery with the thieves and rogues of his Province. "See how deceitful I am," he says, "that I tricked a Dragon out of such a prize. Is there no one who can outsmart me?"

Inheritors are highly conscious of merit. An Inheritor who meets someone who he believes has the potential to be his equal as a Dragon must take that person under his wing in some way. Should he meet someone whom he believes has the potential to be a better Dragon, he is driven to procure a Heart for them. Any Heart. Even his own.

The Inheritor, who received his Heart as a gift from on high, is driven to be worthy of the gift, and to find others of worth. "See how deserving I am," he says, "that I received such a wondrous gift. Is there no one else who is worthy?"

(Yes, the Trickster and especially the Inheritor flaws are a bit shaky. But this should be a decent proof of concept, if nothing else.)

Vree

Hmm, don't those flaws all revolve around not being able to refuse a challenge?

I could see something like that added as an automatically acquired drawback on the Methods, though.

So, a Slayer may acquire flaws that make him deathly afraid of dying from injury, but at the same time force him to seek out risks and fights to assure himself that he's still got the touch.

Finders forced to become secretive and reclusive, dealing in riddles and withholding information from even allies, so that their secrets can not be used against them, and yet cursing them with unsatiable curiosity.

Inheritors becoming overly conscious of what others think of them, and yet driven to always put themselves in the spotlight.

Tricksters becoming suspicious and paranoid around others, constantly afraid that they would either be unmasked as someone not truly worthy of their Heart, or that someone who had spotted this would con them the same way they did it, and yet inclined to leave clues and openings to prove for themselves that no-one could actualy trick them.

Like you I dislike the idea of adding the Devils to the methods. Apart from small adjustments that I may suggest, I think the Methods are perfect. I really love them.

I couldn't grasp the Philosophies though. In a way the Devils are actually more sympathetic to me than the other five "good" philosophies.

They seem to revolve around how dragons relate to the history that created the dragons, but how would my dragon even know about that, much less care? Dragons are rare; there aren't large groups to indoctrinate the newcomers with these obscure philosophies. It's much more likely that my dragon would adjust to the new world on her own.

Plus they are just aren't very attractive. Bones are...Tree-hugging crying-with-you good guys? I think? So are Tears. Ashes are nihilists who hate people. Sweat are honest workers, like the guy at the pub complaining about immigrants taking Americans' jobs. After reading it 3x I still have no clue what Blood's deal is. Oh, and everyone has Empathy. (I think it is listed as their primary skill for 3 groups.) I don't know, I think I'd rather play someone who is cool. Not this bunch of extremists.

Five Evils, THAT I understand. They are simple. You focus on a sin and try to make yourself better. It is also easy to believe this being spread among dragons because it needs only what, one sentence to explain? I can relate to these guys. (except for the Jekyll/Hide thing, they'd be better off without that.)

CJC

Frogs, I do like your flaw suggestions, particularly the one for the Finders which I think fits perfectly. Trickster might need a little tweaking, but I can't think of anything at the moment.

A few years ago, Lostkith took the Ablutions (then Aspects) and combined them into a Mage hack, letting the Dragons use Arcana. That's not important, though; he also came up with a different set of Philosophies. LostKith wrote: Malsapiensits: Dragons who want to strip away the rule of humankind from the earth and take charge once again.

Stewards: Those who support and nurture humanity so that they may benefit from their experience and power.

Aquisitioners: Dragons who see the survival of their culture through hoarding and from increasing their own personal wealth.

Chrysalists: Orobori who have dedicated themselves to the ideal of evolution and reaching some higher goal of personal perfection.

Now I'm not saying that we should just jump on that, but we can use them as a launching point for a new batch of philosophies (and if we come up with a new batch, we can remove the 'burned into the brain' feature that the current philosophies require due to their complexity)

I think 'Good Mode' Five Evils is too bland to use as a launching point, but types of rulers might work.

Generals: Mortal constituents are soldiers in a war on everything. Or perhaps just a war on the dragon's enemies. The most likely philosophy to fight for a province.

Senators: Mortal constituents are potential voters, who must be appeased to guarantee the dragon wins his position for next term. The most likely philosophy to cater to its subjects.

Priests: Mortal constituents are a flock that needs to be lead to enlightenment. The most likely philosophy to build cults.

Entrepreneurs: Mortal constituents are employees for the purpose of building an empire. The most likely philosophy to write W-2s (heh, just kidding. I'm running out of 'most likely' ideas).

We could come up with more, but four is okay. The nice thing behind these is the fact that they are all recognizable roles for leaders, and so a newly forged Oroboroi may select one of these philosophies with relative ease (or even subconsciously).

FYI: I do not speak Chinese, I was using an online dictionary. So we'll just use 'Maiden' as the term.

EDIT: Thought up a fifth

Broadcasters: Mortal constituents are the audience, and they must be kept entertained. Broadcaster dragons are the most likely to manipulate the presentation of facts to the media (and the most likely to fear-monger).

Exploding Frogs

I very much like this idea, and I was thinking of something along these lines myself, actually. What I'd come up with before you beat me to the punch:

Philosophies, now that they have been largely decoupled from Edicts, don't really need to be about "how can we make this Y- splat about both a primal emotion/force AND themes of rulership and draconic archetypes?" That's where the original Philosophies fell flat, so now let's stop trying to force them to do so much at once and just concentrate on the themes part.

Each Philosophy (assuming that name is retained) should involve answers to the following questions: What went wrong during the Collapse? Why are the Oroboroi struggling to be relevent today? What sort of leader can make a nation great? What relationship do you, as a ruler, have with your subjects? What obligations do they have to you, and you to them? How will this approach allow the Oroboroi to return to prominence, or at least stand a better chance of survival?

Ideas for Philosophies:

Imperators: Uncompromising dictators, monarchs, kings, emperors. The problem with the Collapse was not that the Dragons were outmoded or weak. It was that they were too soft, too complacent, allowed mortals to become ambitious and innovative without bothering to keep up. A nation is made great when it has a strong ruler whom the people obey without question. Imperators seek to restore the old world, with divine kings on top of the heap and a mortal populace too thoroughly cowed to rise up. This time, they'll get it right.

Paragons: Charismatic leaders-by-example. The Collapse happened because the Dragons had no empathy with or connection to their subjects, earning hatred and resentment that was acted upon as soon as there was opportunity. A nation is made great when its leader shares in the lot of the people and drives them to excellence.

Sages: Advisors, viziers, and powers behind the throne. Alternatively, sage-kings and scholar-gentry. The Collapse happened because the Dragons were ravening beasts without the wisdom to make the right choices and ensure prosperity for the people. A nation is made great when those in power rule wisely and well, whether the source of that wisdom the the ruler himself or his trusted advisors.

Shock

The Philosophies are suppose to represent the means of power that a Dragon rests and they are typically varied as they come. However seen as they are kinda written lopsided, I suppose try to rewrite it at a later date. They come as follow:

Ash: Not really nihilists but more of leaders who accept that everything comes to an end and sometimes, a Dragon has to deal with organizations and structures that need to be pulled apart. To offer another view point, long term Philosophers of Ash may look at the world as if it was a forest. Fire, change, and destruction is part of a forest's natural life cycle and is simply needed at times. Same with a building that has grown too old and needs to be scrapped.

However, Most dragons usually gravitate to Ash when they want to bring something down specifically (Much like Prometheans who undertake Stannum). A specific example in my mind is an NPC that is in the process of bringing down a Kindred elder for eliminating most of his dynasty. Typically cheerful, He is using past life experience as a materials engineer to good use by eliminating the foundations that holds the Elder's haven together.

Blood: Blood is about Honor, Trust, and Loyalty. As such it takes examples of "Blood Bond" and "Blood Brother" to an extreme. A Philosopher of Blood is much akin to an Arrow Magi where they typically follow the spirit of what they mean vs what their oath says. As such, they tend to be very serious with their promises as they tend to view themselves as mediators and peacemakers as they try to position themselves as neutral third parties, or old school samurai/knights.

For NPC concepts: A hotshot lawyer, lobbyist, a head of a wall street rating agency. Also: old school gangster, street ronin, etc

Bone: I think less of tree huggers but rather holding on to what you value and taking on the effort of repairing what was broken. A dragon may take on this Philosophy when a dragon is dealing with a domain in a high crime area with constant threats towards it and his subjects. For a series of examples: A doctor may look after his patients and the hospital. A parole officer may keep an eye on her charges to make sure they keep on the straight and narrow. An engineer may work off the clock to repair the busted up equipment. In one common theme is the need to repair the broken.

Sweat: Sweat is the most existentialistic of all the Philosophies because if you are going to do something, you need to do it well. laziness courts corruption and Heartseekers. In their mind, it's less about what type of job you are doing for the Domain but are you giving it your all. To counter your remark about the pub, It's more likely that a Sweat Dragon would say "Why are you guys wasting effort bitching about foreigners when you can be inventing and make your own way?". Dragons usually follow this Philosophy after being caught offguard and feel the need for self discipline.

NPC types are vary as Sweat can involve any profession but typically work best when under pressure: Those jobs are Soldiers, Emergency Technician, etcs.

Tears: Tears tend to be focused on their effect on the minds of their subjects. It's much less of who they are but rather what they perceive to be. The Philosophy as a whole attracts media mongrels who seek to build up their power base, psychologists who deal with the nightmares and dreams of their charges, and various other professionals.

In short, I really think the Philosophies are fine but are really skewed towards certain NPC concepts in the book without broadening them as a whole. I hope some of this post addressed that.

As for ruler ship, look at the Philosophies this way:

Ash: Rule by Fear

Blood: Rule by Reputation

Bone: Rule by Love.

Sweat: Rule by Respect.

Tears: Rule by Power (or the illusion of it).

CJC

And suddenly, like a flash of lightning, everything falls into place.

Frogs is correct, we need to build new Philosophies from scratch. BUT! We needn't throw the old ones out. I've just had a tremendous idea that solves the True Form issue AND recycles the original philosophies.

Here it is:

Attaining True Form gives the bonuses that it always has, but also locks the Oroboroi into a compulsion. They are driven to complete a task. There are five such states of compulsion: An Ash compulsion demands that something be destroyed (be it a building or an organization), a Blood compulsion demands that an Oath be upheld... by any means necessary, a Bone compulsion demands that something be repaired, a Sweat compulsion demands something be built, and a Tears compulsion demands terror from an audience. The Storyteller selects one of these states each time a Dragon attains True Form, and then the Player determines how they will fulfill the compulsion. Straying nullifies all benefits of True Form and dumps the Oroboroi back into her mortal guise. Completing the task has the same effect (but hey, you got the unspeakable strength for the task, right?).

These compulsion states are a curse laid upon the Hearts by the original dragons of old, as punishment for their usurpation.

Wouldn't it be fun to throw a Sweat compulsion at a Dragon who's in the middle of a fight? I think this would be a blast. Thoughts?

Vree

Suggestions for Suit Of Hearts Ablutions.

Aquatic Body

Cost: 1 Breath per scene

Sea serpents are legendary thorough history, and Eastern dragons were often associated with rivers. In Chinese mythology, the Dragon Kings were rulers of the 4 seas.

The character can swim at their normal Speed. (Mortals swim at reduced Speed.) More dots increase this to Speed x dots in this Ablution. The character also adds this Ablution to her Stamina when determining how long she can remain underwater (see Holding Breath, WoD rulebook p. 49).

Flame-Walking

Cost: 1 Breath for a scene.

The association between dragons and fire is well known, and dragons were often depicted living under volcanoes, or igniting wildfires that would leave them unharmed.

This Ablution makes the dragon impervious to the effects of fire and heat. The dots in the Ablution are subtracted from the severity of the fire when considering the risk and damage they mean to a dragon. So, if the dragon has 2 dots in this and is exposed to a bonfire with the intensity of a torch (3 damage per turn), he only suffers a single point of damage. In addition, the effect of regular fires is downgraded from Lethal to Bashing damage while another dragon's Inferno is downgraded from Aggravated to Lethal damage.

At higher dots, the dragon can walk on hot embers barefoot, touch hot iron fresh from the furnace, drink boiling water, or even eat hot coal, as dragons were rumored to do.

(Swimming in lava: This needs a combination of this Ablution and either Aquatic or Burrowing Body. Lava is at least severity 5 even if you only walk on its surface, and even worse below, so if you are trying to swim or dive, you will always take damage, and being submerged in lava can cook even supernaturally resistant beings like dragons.)

Burowing Body:

Burrowing Body cost 1 Breath per SCENE, not per yard, same as Flying.

However, it can also only be used to dig through matter with a Durability of 0, like loose soil or mud. A dragon can still typically break through a wooden floor, or even pass through cement (Durability 1) using their own strenght; but it can not break stone (Durability 2) or pass through steel (Durability 3). A dragon MAY use other means to break through these obstacles, of course.

(Note that while a dragon's Inferno deals Aggravated damage, and so it bypasses the Durability of regular objects - meaning that it can burn through a bank vault door with ease - it can also not be used at full intensity underground.)

A character who wishes to remain underground for long may be subject to Holding Breath, WoD rulebook p. 49. (Earthworms can breathe underground by absorbing oxygen trapped between grains of earth through their skin, while moles do it by reusing low-oxygen air due to the unique composition of their blood, boons that aren't avaliable to dragons).

Soothing Incense:

Like before, but with a note about smoking. Ie. a dragon with this is likely a smoker in real life, using a cigarette as equipment for this Ablution. (not a prerequirement, just fluff)

Inferno

Addition: Secondary fires started by the use of Inferno deal normal (Lethal) damage.

Keen-Eyed:

Like before, bot dots in this Ablution are added to ALL Perception rolls. (same as the Vampire:tR Auspex: "Keen Senses" 1st dot ability)

(Rationale:

I have never heard of dragons with excellent infrared vision, the opposite actually. I DID hear of dragons with excellent smell and hearing, adding them even when they are sleeping. Plus the focus is a bot narrow, essentially night vision.)

As a result, scent bonuses are removed from the Degrees Of Divinity. (idk why they were there and vision here anyway)

If a dragon would need keen sight, it would be an airborne dragon, as flying predators need good telescopic vision/depth perception to be able to spot targets on the ground.

So, the results of spending Willpower on enhancing senses is expanded. However, you can only spend WP on ONE sense at a time.

Sight: The dragon can see heat in the infrared and the ultraviolet spectrum, allowing them to see heat, essentially granting them night vision.

The dragon also gains telescopic and microscopic vision, able to analyze minute details and seeing things from a long range.

Hearing: The dragon can listen to high pitched sounds in the subsonic and ultrasonic range. There isn't much use for this, but as a bonus the dragon can emit a high pitch whistle that only another dragon with this (or animals that can hear in this range, like a dog or a bat) can hear; the noise does not register for any mortals.

Touch: The dragon can sense minute resonances in anything his skin is in contact with: he can sense the steps of others on the ground, and can sense movement close to him from changes in the air. This makes touch a targetting sense like sight as long as the target is only a few feet away. Being submerged in water increases the range of the Ablution (sharks have this ability).

Smell: A dragon who spent WP can tell the numbers and the species of any creatures that are nearby, or have passed through the location within the last couple of hours. They can also smell blood and tell if a person or animal is, or was, injured.

Tasting: Tasting with Willpower can reveal details about the composition of the materials that make object, eg. the purity (carat value) of a golden object. It can also sense any amount of poison in food or drink, before they are consumed.

Magnoception: Dragons have an additional sense that normal humans do not have, but many other animals do: they can sense magnetic fields. At its basic use, this allows the dragon to home in on the Earth's poles, ie. the dragon will always know which way North is. This adds a +1 bonus to some navigation rolls.

If improved with Willpower, the sense has even more uses. First, it can sense metals, even if they are buried under the ground. Second, it can sense strong electric currents, homing in on electronic devices. Finally, it can sense radio waves, albeit note that this does not allow the person to DECIPHER the meaning of those radio codes.

Vree

Much appreciation for the explanation - I feel I can understand a bit better now what they were aiming for.

There was no question in me that the Philosophy descriptions will need to be rewritten, they needed to be at least this concise.

For example, you write that Blood = Honor. That's a concept that I can follow. From that can logically follow a lot of things that can shape up into a coherent philosophy. Traditions, rules, modus operandi, relationships, chosen goal and role.

What you do NOT write instead is this:

Blood: "Followers of Blood are sadists."

But they are also honorable?

"Blood dragons have been hurt in the past." "Many are charged by the hope the world can be made better through their protection, so the Blood philosophy calls to them."

I thought it was another group that were the Menders, but let's read on.

"Blood dragons are clean-cut and formal. They are tidy, industrious, and efficient to the letter, and a great modicum of respect is rightly gifted to them for that. Punctuality and dedication are important..."

I don't know if you can see why I find that every section under Blood contradicts the previous sections. It's like each of these sections describes a different philosophy.

These guys are hopeful, sadistic, formal, sociable, frontline combatants. (With Empathy and Medicine - every philosophy in this game has Empathy and Medicine).

I think you are trying to describe a CHARACTER here, not a group.

Could it be that you simply have oWoD-illness - trying to write groups like they were character archetypes, and not how groups or philosophies actually form? (The oWoD had quite a few of these - groups that were "cunning nihilists" or "reclusive trickster-priest rebels" to the last man. Thankfully the nWoD improved on that.)

There is no way all of these traits would fit every member. What holds these guys together? How do they come to this same type?

Or is it that you are writing an X-splat rather than an Y-splat? I could possibly see these as X-splats. If you were describing what kind of background I was coming from before I was a dragon, maybe. Although you'd still have to rewrite them a bit to cover more ground, not just these very specific people. Start with the assumption that I already have a characte in mind and I'm looking for the right philosophy for it. It is a problem if none of them fit my character because they are too specific.

But that's only one part of the problem, how the descriptions are written.

It's a bigger a problem to me, what they try to stand for.

Tears: "Tears dragons are creepy. Many are deranged, laughing at inappropriate times or sobbing uncontrollably. They act courteous and polite, though they never really develop friends. They’re far too dangerous for that."

So, these guys are psychos. Skip.

Ash: "Followers of Ash are fatalists. They have the power to bring the world to ruin if they so desired, but most don’t even bother." "Followers of Ash are not social. Ever."

I want a character who can get things done. Next.

(That's 2 groups that you described as loners with no friends so far by the way, in a game where you play as a member of a party. Yeah.)

Bone: "Bone dragons like to practice Medicine. A lot. It’s actually their favorite skill. Bone dragons are humanitarians. Or animal lovers."

I'm playing a dragon, not a New Age monk.

Sweat: Nothing wrong with Sweat, except that they are bland. Horribly bland. And boring. They work hard and are realists. The end. Nothing about being a dragon, or the proiblems that relate to that. You do the same things you did before you were a dragon.

Conclusion: I'm sorry but these are all just completely useless to me. I can not do anything with these.

There is NO mention whatsoever about HOW the character relates to being a DRAGON, and all the problems that come with that; how he plans to survive in this new world; what he hoped to gain from becoming a dragon; what he hopes to gain from being with this group; what his approach is to solving the immediate problems, like being wanted for murder or having inherited a Province that is now crumbling without a leader or the Knights and other dragon-killers on her Greenhorn tail. Not even her opinion about the Collapse that allegedly the Philosophies are about gets expanded on in any way.

If they get reworked then there should at LEAST be more focus on that last one. It's not the only thing that can matter to a dragon, but at least it is something to hold them together. But really what I would want is: - if these are organizations,then they should be organizations - groups with a set goal and a plan for how they get there. - if they are philosophies (as they probably are, as dragons aren't numerous enough to have large social clubs), then they should be philosophies. I mean actual philosophies, not a bunch of traits thrown together. Eg. some sort of core idea, goal, benefit, and how you can attain that: a "secret" or belief or way of life, and if possible, one that actually works. You can have maybe one crazy cult if you want ("if you collect 10 Hearts you can become an Old Dragon" "the Collapse never happened, but the older Dragons are keeping it a secret" "the Deep Ones are the good guys") but a real splat needs to be something that actually works and has been working for a while to be actual tradition that is worth passing on.

I'm liking @Frog's approach more right now at the moment.

Philosophies based on the 5 Chinese or Japanese elements:

This would make sense too. In this case, the dragons simply stole the Edicts and the Philosophes that belong to them from someone at some point, and pass it around as a useful thing to have.

Based on approach:

- those dragons who focus on their Province and the power distribution between Provinces, interested in political power - those dragons who focus on dragon history, the reasons for the Collapse, the ancient secrets of the old dragons - dragons who focus on their powers, the Ablutions and Edicts - dragons whose interest is the Dreamtide - 5 evil successors who focus on moralty?

(I don't like this that much, but a possibility)

@Frog's group: Liking these, I have nothing to add atm.

I think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government is worth looking at briefly, for the various type of govering styles listed.

I actually wrote up some ideas for how Provinces may run, idk if they will be help. Shock and CJC can correct me - I don't really know how Provinces work, so I'm guessing a lot of this.

A dragon may have any number of the following roles in a Province:

- symbolic/public representative role: the Dragon is a shining example who embodies the Province's core values and inspires others. Expected to work on himself, his Ethics etc. - head of government: the dragon appoints the leaders in the Province. - legislation: the Dragon makes the rules in the Province. This is not going to derive for human law and custom very much, but a dragon can make any special rule he likes. - judiciary: the Dragon is the final court, whose absolute word resolves disputed cases. - diplomatic function: the Dragon represents his Province towards the leaders of other Provinces. - interior defense: the dragon is responsible for the safety of his subjects, and upholds some sort of law enforcement in the Province for that purpose. - exterior defense: in case of violent disputes between Provinces, the dragon is the chief of the armed forces. - economy & finances: the Dragon makes decisions about how to best support the economical growth in the region, often by giving special privileges to those who perform better. - religious role: the dragon isa representative of Heaven, maybe a head priest but often the Dragon himself is a subject of reverence. May be needed to perform ceremonial roles for the local churches.

How Provinces form:

In the sight of mortals, a dragon are typically only a gifted and influental fellow. Still, people flock to the dragon as they'd flock to a promising leader too.

(I think? explain the plans for this to me please)

Not every dragon has a Province, but all dragons are territorial. Territories are easier to maintain, a Province takes more effort.

(what advantages does a Province offer and why'd a dragon maintain one?)

Exploding Frogs

The idea of True Form involving some kind of compulsion restricting a Dragon's behavior has potential, but I have reservations about doing it this way. It takes too much control away from the player. If it's up to Storyteller fiat which of these compulsions is assumed when, assuming True Form becomes an excessively risky liability, not an ace in the hole. You want True Form to be something the players will only use when the stakes are high enough to warrant it, but not turn it into something they avoid assuming at all costs. The "being dumped back in human form if you stray from or complete the task" only exacerbates these issues. I'd rather have a diminished True Form than have it be game-breakingly powerful but so unreliable that I never want to risk using it.

Maybe if the player selected the compulsion, somehow, and rather than outright dumping them back in human form it inflicts an escalating penalty on their actions for straying from their selected goal.

Maybe make the suit of a Dragon's manifested Ablutions somehow related to their compulsion?

Or maybe the compulsion relates to Method?

Maybe it's not so much a compulsion as it is an overriding emotion that makes certain tasks difficult, but not impossible (kind of hard to focus on building when you're in the grip of an incandescent rage, or on fighting when your heart is filled with transcendent, all-encompassing compassion and love)

Another way to integrate the current Embers Philosophies into the rewrite would be to make them an antagonist faction, centering around different forms of tyranny and oppression: Oroboroi who refuse to learn from the Collapse and want to indulge in being dread god-monsters to the mortal cattle. (As opposed to the protagonist Philosophies, which apply lessons learned in the Collapse toward a mutually beneficial relationship with their subjects; even the Imperators are interested in authoritarian rule as a means to make a nation great rather than to parasitically leech off of the populace and luxuriate in their own power.)

Ideas on how this would work with each Philosophy:

Ash: "Obey me, or be destroyed. Don't think I mean it? Neither did this guy, and now he's going to be an example."

Blood: Control their subjects with tangled webs of conflicting loyalties and obligations, playing them off of one another and preventing them from rising up.

Bone: Aggressively maintain the status quo, on the one hand maintaining everything in reasonable condition ("the trains run on time") but on the other crushing innovation and change.

Sweat: Ruthless taskmasters who relentlessly drive their subjects to create monuments to their glory and takes away what few luxuries they are permitted in the form of tribute and taxes.

Tears: Sadists on a power trip who love seeing their subjects squirm. Pointlessly abuse power specifically to cause suffering.

Oh, and look! Two more ideas for new Philosophies:

Idols: Figurehead rulers, divinities separated from the processes of the state, cultural icons. The Collapse happened because Dragons tried to be something they were not: wielders of power, rather than symbols of it. A nation is made great when its people unite around a grand and shining ideal: it matters not how it gets there, so long as that ideal exists in a form that the people can rally around.

Nemeses: Antagonists, inciters of chaos, testers-to-destruction of mankind. The Collapse happened because Dragons sought to be loved and revered, a deviation from their proper purpose. A nation is made great when it is strong, and it is made strong by adversity. Nemeses provide adversity for the humans in their Provinces, culling the weak and the lazy and uniting the rest in their opposition to their enemy.

Vree

Eh, I hate to be a contrarian but I'm not seeing it. Apart from demainding terror, which could probably be easily achieved without becoming distruptive, the other three look silly.

Are you saying that you could only change into True Form when you do something in your Philosophy's focus?

I thought the point of the True Form was damage downgrade so it is primarily a combat utility. Saying that it can only be used for "building something"...Why'd I even use this form to do something like that?

No, I think this is a bad idea.

Listing the Edicts for myself for reference

Ash - Ruin Blood - Oath Bone - Hippocratic Sweat - Agony Tears - Hysteria

Wrath - Rampage Pride - Assembly Greed - Property Lust - Comfort Sloth - Trance

Artillery Astral Camaraderie Due Process Husbandry Mutilation Network Phantom Polygraphy Trance

Earth Metal Water Wood Fire

So, I'm curious, what was the creation process behind these?

I have not found any past threads (apart from the short 2010 one), I do not even know if they exist. : (

CJC

This is why I shouldn't be allowed on the internet in the middle of the night. Yes, it isn't a great idea. It just seemed that way when I was sleep deprived.

Still, it wouldn't be 'in the vein of your philosophy' because this system would have used Frogs' Imperators/Paragons/Sages/Idols/Nemeses philosophies (he hadn't written the last two when I posted, but you get the picture). Rather, the states would be like variations of frenzies.

But that doesn't matter, because it doesn't work.

What if True Form puts such a strain on the mind that, upon exiting, the Oroboroi forgets everything they did while in that state? ...I don't know, I'm just flinging mechanics now. Maybe somebody else can build on this (Frogs had a good start).

@Vree: On your Ablution recommendations:

Aquatic Body could be incorporated with Wings. Both don't seem to do much on their own, and I like the idea of using wings as great oars to propel through the water (I know I've seen this in a game before... was it Soul Reaver?).

Flame Walking could be incorporated into Fire Skin as the scaling benefit, which would make Fire Skin less of a grapple exploit nightmare.

I agree on Burrowing Body. Also, I don't remember making the after-fires in Inferno aggravated. Probably a sleep-deprived moment.

I like my version of Keen Senses better, though (You'll find it earlier in the thread in one of my walls of text... I'll edit it in in a quote here if I can find it). I'll change the name so it's not the same as the Kindred power; that was an oversight. Each one I suggested grants the Oroboroi a means of detecting others of her kind, which I think is an important feature to explore.

@Frogs: On using the original Embers philosophies as antagonists I like how you twisted them into wicked interpretations (and I'm also saddened at how easy that was. It's a sign of bad writing on my part). They certainly seem like more engaging Dragon villains than our current set. This is the sort of thing the rewrite is needed for: building a compelling conflict for Embers so that people will want to actually play our game, instead of fish it for mechanics.

@Vree: On Provinces You are correct in how they form. As written in this version, the Province is a means of preventing the questioning of authority (to support the Fossilization tack-on), but with the rewrite running a Province will be part of the divine Mandate that every Oroboroi must follow. It is an obligation to prevent degeneration.

@Vree: On old Threads Most of the development after 2010 took place on MythWeavers Forums. Here is a link to the discussions in relation to the play-tests. Since the play-by-post was too slow, many conclusions were made based on short runs in our own game groups and educated inferences.

I wrote all of the Edicts. The first eleven (including Astral) were conversions of the spirit of the original Philosophies to the new Law mechanic, and the rest were efforts to cover every single skill on the sheet (so that no skill would experience diminished supernatural utility, and to give the Edicts more spread as problem solvers).

Vree

Is there a link to the old Dragon versions? I would like to read them.

Also let me repeat this, I'm really grateful for the patience from both of you for my inept tinkering.

I'm still basically just familiarizing myself with the game and writing my impressions as they come. I may suggest stuff, but really, it's your game.

(And of course, just because 'I' don't like something, I don't mean to imply that someone else may not like it, it may only be me.)

On the other hand, you've been cool like that, so that gives me courage to try to absorb more and make suggestions for everything.

Bad news for you is that I'm probably gonna pick on Edicts next. I hope that's okay.

CJC wrote: On Provinces

Ah, I can see what you were trying to do with Fossilization. Although I don't think that having a Province would prevent being challenged (on the contrary, it would give you more rivals/enemies), so I think it was right to change it, the link between the two is interesting. Maybe you could suffer Fossilization from not maintaining your Province?

In a way, I envision Provinces as the same as Vampire Domains. However, instead of a bunch of vampires, there is a single supernatural (the dragon) and everyone else is human (plus family (Dragon-Blooded).

Do you think that calls for the addition of a supernatural connection with servants? I tried to go for something like that with my merit suggestive above, but I'll write it up in a better manner.

The idea is that the dragon's majesty would be a mild supernatural effect, that would automatically cause some mortals to revere him as a leader. This is not intentional and can not be switched off, but mortals that are affected would automatically become loyal to a dragon. These thralls would then make up the dragon's personal circle. Thrall status would not havee any side effects other than a feeling of loyalty to the dragon.

I'm not sure about all this, I tried to solve it without it, but we need a reason for why Provinces exist. Tho what you said about Mandate being an Obligation, maybe that alone is good enough. I like it.

CJC wrote: Aquatic Body could be incorporated with Wings. Both don't seem to do much on their own, and I like the idea of using wings as great oars to propel through the water (I know I've seen this in a game before... was it Soul Reaver?).

I had this silly idea of tying movement types to the Japanese 5 Elements:

Dragons of the Wind. You get Flying for free. Dragons of the Water. You get Swimming for free. Dragons of the Earth. You get Burrowing for free. Dragons of Fire. You get Flamewalking for free. Dragons of Void. You can navigate the Twilight or the Dreamtide for free.

Also note that we have 5 locomotion like this: flying, burrowing, climbing, jumping, swimming.

Annywayy, Flying seems a good enough power on itself (certainly better than wall-walking for example), so I don't think it needs the boost?

Reason I wanted to add aquatic movement is because the dragon/water association is REALLY strong.

I'll probably step on some toes and suggest some alternate Water Edicts based on those myths, too.

CJC wrote: Flame Walking could be incorporated into Fire Skin as the scaling benefit, which would make Fire Skin less of a grapple exploit nightmare.

Yes please. They could even be an Odd/Even thing. IMO being fireproof is more important for a dragon, but it is also a pretty limited ability to be its own power. Together, they seem better.

CJC wrote:

I agree on Burrowing Body. Also, I don't remember making the after-fires in Inferno aggravated. Probably a sleep-deprived moment.

It did not actually say that, sorry - I just thought maybe it will not be obvious to everybody from the text, but I am probably wrong.

CJC wrote: I like my version of Keen Senses better, though

Yeah, I agree, your version is nice. I just half-forgot about them when I wrote it.

Haha yeah maybe I should just stop before I alienate everyone anyway

Levelling: Do I understand it correctly - you pay 1x 6 or 7 exp for the first Edict in a category, then you pay 3x for the next and x5 for the last?

I don't really understand why you'd try to to stick with the 5 steps when you have 3 powers - my chara would just buy the 1st Laws in every Edict forever. The 1st Laws are way too cheap for their power, while the extra dots are unreasonably costly.

If you want to ask form more for more of the same power, wouldn't a 1x, then 2x, then 3x progression work better? Although every Law is the same power level, I could perhaps see the increasing cost justified by their usefulness in conjuction with each other (I'm not quite sold, but, yeah, maybe).

(PS In the next edition, please move the Experience table to the Character Creation section, it is in a weird place at the end of Chapter 4 right now)

Power level:

Many of the Laws seem VERY powerful to me, considering how you can just buy them as 1st dot powers as long as you ignore the others. The people-control ones seem particularly bad.

For example: Persuade is a multi target effect (no mention of a limit on the number of people either), it creates a permanent change, and it is an Instant action for 1 Breath (AND that Breath may even be recovered, in case you thought this power needed more boom).

It can turn a dragon's servants against him, etcetra.

No other supernatural gets so much power for so little cost.

Go compare how much trouble a Vampire needs to go into to affect more than one person, or to cause a non-temporary change in someone.

That probably wasn't the goal, so the power should be clarified/changed to reflect this. xD

Also, I know what is going to replace the last 2 dots from the Edict max reduction to 3 from 5. The ranks from the Language:Draconic merit.

You receive a +1 on Edict Declaration rolls from Draconic 2, and a +2 at 3. Alternatively (my preferred solution) you receive a +2 at Draconic 2, and Draconic 3 bonuses grant easier access and greater control when the character is in the Dreamtide.

Langauge (Draconic):

Like before, but with additions for the spoken (not just the written) language.

1 dot: New Draconic This is the language of the dragons from the Mesopotamian era, and the only one that is still in use today (with small changes) as the dragons' "secret language". It does not have any special powers, but it is used in dragon courts and for private letters, diaries etc., and of course, no human (without several levels in Academics) can decipher it.

2 dot: Old Draconic (Post-Collapse) A language forged from the fragments of the true Old Draconic that was created and spoke by the first new-gen dragons after the Collapse. Although it is far from the original language, enough f it is preserved that it makes a connection to the Dreamtide easier. The Dragon receives a +2 modifer on their Declaration roll when activating Edicts.

3 dot: old Draconic (Dominion) The language of the Old Dragons. The character gains a +2 modifier for entering the Dreamtide or using Ablutions and Edicts there.

Declaration rules clarification for Edicts:

The Declaration must be a spoken word, spoken in a raised voice, which means that the use of these powers is overt, although they can be spoken in regular English and thus hidden in normal speech ("Jake, can you please STAND over here?" "I wish this this blasted smoke would just DISSIPATE." etc.)

The declaration can be made in any human language that the dragon knows. It can also be spoken in New Draconic, preventing any human from understanding it.

The word can also be spoken in Old Draconic, which makes them more porent. A character who has 2 or 3 dots in Language: Draconic receives a +1 and +2 bonus on their Declaration rolls.

Here's the solution for the Assembly: Persuade changes: change 1: The change in opinion only lasts for a scene. The subject may of course justify it for themselves later and pretend that it was their position from the beginning, and so they may actually adopt the opinion; but otherwise, there is no way to make a permanent change only with this. Change 2: The subject must be looking directly at the Oroboroi when the declaration is made, otherwise the power does not work. -> that helps the conjuction with the other 2 Laws: a Dragon may call attention to himself with Enrapture, then follow up with Persuade to control the mood of the crowd, then drown out any remaining people who are unaffected with Pariah.

--- In general, I want to make the following tweaks for all Laws & Edicts:

The powers should rely on each other a lot more strongly. This is already achieved with some powers (I'm liking Husbandry, for example), not so with others where

The reasons for this: - The 1st dot is relatively cheap, so just one Law in a power should be relatively weak, to the point where it is almost unusable without comboing it with another Law or Attr + Skill, but it should never be more valuable in itself that any other 1- dot power. - The 2nd and 3rd dot are more expensive, so there should be a pay off for comboability in every case.

When you add a If you have a good power in mind, split it immediately into two powers. Then think of a 3rd one that gives a boost that makes it dominating. Think of Law A in itself as a 1 dot power, law A+B as a 3-dot one and A+B+C as a 5-dot one.

For example, a crowd control power that forces attention to a dragon. The a B) power that forces a change in onlookers, but the subject looking directly at the dragon is a prerequirement.

Most of the Edicts aren't doing so bad, but there are too many when all 3 powers are useful individually, or where 1 power is just too good (each 1 should be weak in itself).

Something else I tried - since there are 25 Edicts (5x5 is a GOOD number) I tried to condense all the previous group concepts into 1 organization, with 5 mini subgroups (these are less important here, but they still determine your starting Edict.)

This is not neccessarily the best or most creative way we can do groups, but it is the one that requires the less effort and chnage I believe.

I liked how the first two groups ended up as representations of Western and Eastern dragons tho.

Church Of The 7 Evils - successors of the Scholars Of 5 Evils - dragons of Christian religion

Theme: religion

There is little doubt that the Church grew out from European and Christian tradition (With later Islamic influences), where serpents and dragons were viewed as embodiments of evil. The Church Of The 7 Evils was born from attempts to apply these traditions to the draconic condition. The current Church is essentially a sect that has little to do with mainstream Abrahamic religions, although it incorporates elements from each.

The Church mostly evolves around the concept of the 7 Deadly Sins (the Islamic sects observe 70 of them). The Church claims that every dragon comes in this world as a representation of one of these sins. To overcome and gain their salvation, the dragon must reject this sin and avoid indulging in it at all costs.

While some members of the Church are truly good people who the Church helps by keeping them away from, the Church is still infamous, part because of their negative view on dragonkind, and also because of their membership: a number of dragons in the Church are criminals who come to the Church looking for salvation, and while members go to great lenghts to avoid their core Sin, they often indulge all the more freely in the other six sins, or simply sins that are not covered by the 7 in the Church doctrine. The response of the Church to this is that dragons are inherently sinful, so a perfect solution does not exist; but as long as the dragon keeps away from their worst impulses, they can avoid falling all the way and keep something good about themselves.

The Church is highly influental and the largest religious organization among dragonkind. Like the many headed serpents of the Church's own tradition, every time you try to cut off a head and remove their presence from a Province, other heads will spring up again. Though they claim to work for the greater good, the Church still wields frightening power and can call on an endless stream of loyal and dangerous followers to spread its gospel.

In places where dragons are too scarce for any organization to be possible, the Church's tenets spread by word of mouth or are passed on in the form of secret occult knwoledge.

Methods:

The Church calls out naturally to Slayers and Tricksters who acquire their Heart through theft or murder. The Church explains to them that the committed sins that made them dragons (Greed, Wrath, Envy, sometimes Gluttony or Pride) can be erased and forgiven.

Character creation: Select a sin that your Dragon perceives having a key role in how they became a Dragon. You are recommended to not choose one related to your character's own Vice - most Church members renounce the sin that created them, and pick up a new primary Vice shortly afterwards. But it is also possible to play a character who is in constant struggle against their own Vice, although it may limit your character's opportunities to regain Willpower.

(Vree's note: The funny thing to me that when I Googled "dragons in Christianity" for this, I found a surprising number of "Are Christians allowed to like dragons?" articles.)

Long-Shen - elemental dragons [yes okay I do not know any Chinese]

Theme: philosophy

The Long-Shen originate from the East. "Long-Shen" is a philosophy; not quite a religion, not quite a way of life, not quite a science, and not quite a secret magic, but rather a combination of all of these, also leaving room for other philosophies.

The Long-Shen's philosophy has the central idea that each dragon is a representation of a classical element. Three of these elements, Water, Eart and Fire are always uniform. The last two differ depending on the tradition: classical Chinese names them Metal and Wood; while the other cultures always name Air and a mystical fifth element, which the Japanese call Spirit or Void, the Indians call Sky, and the Malay tradition calls Ether. Western dragons can be found to follow both traditions.

Character creation: Long-Shen tradition holds that personalities can be described in terms of the 5 elements as well, and so every personality is naturally attuned to one element. Pick one that you think describes your character.

The Lords/Imperators - observers of the Province

Theme: political group

Dragons lack size for large organizations, yet contact between the leaders of the largest Provinces does exist. The Lords are the ones that keep track of the borders of dragons' territories, and who set up some kind of cooperation between them, such as trade. Dragonkind's ruling elite said to have formed right after the collapse, but the organization also changed with the times, and so today it is more of a congregation of business empires, with only the occassional hand in politics.

The Lords' philospophy is a practical one: newcomers do not enter to gain access to secret ancient knowledge or magic, but rather to learn the art of wielding power over the masses.

Character creation: Lords are distincts by their approaches of power: some are ruthless and tyrannical who win by crushing all opposition, others are concerned with results and the well being of their subjects competing by the ones who can get problems solved and increase well being, some are shady and tricky, again others are populists. Choose a form of goverment that best describes your approach to upholding a Province.

Paragorns - successors of the 5 Philosophies - Mourners of the Collapse

Theme: zeitgeist

Paragons are the humblest of dragons. They are also the youngest faction, and some debate if they are a proper faction or philosophy at all, rather than just a number of coinciding movements that rose to prominence during the last 100 years of human history. Paragons have no formal organization, and yet seem to have constant interactions with each other in ways that are difficult to comprehend of follow for older dragons. In the last decade, Paragons have been heavy users of the internet and other social media; but the same memetic, equalitarian and leaderless organization described them for far longer.

What seems to be the only real shared opinion among them is that they blame the old types of draconic organizations for the Collapse and negative consequuences, and want to do things in new ways. They mix with mortals a lot more freely, many of them have a friend or spouse who knows about their dragon status (which, of course, is their own right to decide, in the older dragons' view - but they do not understand why they stop there and do not use the same revelation to gain power in their province).

Character creation:

Every Paragon has their own idea about what can be improved about dragon society. Choose one of the five main approaches (Ash, Tears, Blood, Sweat or Bone) that best describes you.

(5th group undefined)

Exploding Frogs

I actually think that the Church of the Seven Evils and the Long-Shen are the shakiest of the concepts you've got. I think my biggest objection to them is that I don't think that Western and Eastern dragon myths should be represented by separate factions. Rather, every faction should have plenty of room to be interpreted through a lens of Western or Eastern culture, or a mixture of both. And I have doubts about using the original Embers Philosophies for the Paragons, or even if they should need to have a philosophy more specific than that overall "among the people, not above them" thing they have going on.

But I definitely like the overall direction you're going in; what's been missing from ideas for Dragon's Y-splats so far is a sense of broader organization and culture beyond the individual member. And I absolutely love your Imperators.

...Come to think of it, those last two factions kind of come across as organization-level interpretations of my own Imperators and Paragons. Maybe that's the best way to do it? Consider how each of those concepts would act as a group, rather than an individual, and go from there?

Shock

Most of Dragon's early process was in private messages with the occasional thread manifesting.

As for the thought process behind the original philosophies, I came up with the Domain while Gepetto came with the five evils school. My thought process behind the Domain was picturing an site after a volcanic eruption.

There is Ash everywhere. The street littered with scared people with cuts (Blood), broken Bones, Sweating like mad, and once they finally get away, Tears come.

There was an early philosophy called Smoke that didn't make the cut that centered around Dragons who simply refused to set up Domains. Who refused to center themselves around power. They were basically the Ghost Wolves of Dragon and I want to see about re-tweaking them later.

In all honesty, Every time I read that sentence, I want to bang my head against the wall until I knock myself unconscious because that is NOT how I wanted the philosophy of Blood to be presented. They are not (as a whole) sadists. They do not like seeing others in pain than any other creature and simply put, I have no idea why CJC decided to go that route when he wrote the PDF.

And now for a bit of backstory: During the time that Dragon was being written. It underwent several revisions. CJC was the main author and compiler of what ideas we had for Dragon. Over time, It underwent a few revisions that I did not agree with and I wanted to review the draft. This tension ended up with the Bailout Draft in which CJC left the project for the first time. Which simply left me and PaladinDemo. After a while, I had real life drama that I had to deal with (Dying relatives, University transfers and threatening to kick me out, etc) that I had to deal with which during that point, I effectively thought Dragon was in limbo and effectively a dead project until I could find the time work on it some more.

However, CJC returned to the project and progressed on it. This time, without my asking for drafts to review. I knew for a time that Dragon was still progressing a bit (PaladinDemo PMed me every so often about keeping the Mythweaver's forum open) but I was focusing on keeping my academic career afloat during that time.

As a whole, I am very proud of CJC's work and his dedication to the project (which supersedes my own). But every time I read the Domain Philosophies as they are written right now, I want to stick a fork in my eye. The mechanic are good (if not need a bit more polish as you said so yourself) but the presentation of the Philosophies needs work... a lot of work...

Thank you for your input. I'll keep that in mind as I do the revision. As for Frogs. I am not inclined to put them as an Antagonist faction just yet. If anything, I am more inclined to put them on neutral ground than as something inherently evil. I need to think about this more and see how to rework this.

CJC

There were several short and spread-out explanations of each of the philosophies when I joined the project, and at that time I had to read through twenty pages of forum thread just to get up to speed. I may have picked up bits and pieces of different suggestions and just dumped them all together (I can't remember anymore), and where there were gaps I simply filled in what I could think up.

For the rewrite I do NOT want to write the main section of the Philosophies. Someone else needs to do a complete write-up (not just a few sentences, I'm talking a whole page including the stereotypes, written as it would be seen in the document), and then I will place THAT into the new edition. This should be the highest priority, because the philosophies need to be defined in order to restructure the 'fluff' of the first and fourth chapter.

Writing factions is not my strong-suit. I've got oWoD syndrome in that respect, so it is for the best that I do not author that section.

EDIT: This counts as my reply to the Philosophies! : {P

Ah, I see what the problem with Persuade is.

It was intended that the audience needs to actually Listen to what the proclaiming Oroboroi is saying before their opinions are changed, and the intent was to change their mind on little things so that they have to reconsider bigger things. The Law just needs a little more clarity on those points.

Going to keep reading the list and see if there are other oversights like that.

EDIT: Yeah, the Elemental Edicts are definitely a mess. Their laws need more basket-weaving to be able to work in conjunction with each other. And Quake, awesome as it is, needs to face the boot.

EDIT: Hysteria needs to be adjusted so that the emotion invoked by the Daydream matches the emotion the target is currently experiencing (or else they get a bonus to break free). Also, the 'FEAR ME!' law Demoralize needs different fluff to match emotion tweaking, with an incompatible emotion reducing the amount of Willpower lost.

EDIT: I didn't notice before, but Trance's "Flashback" and Hysteria's "Reminisce" are remarkably similar. Hysteria's law will need to be replaced. Also, Pluck and Stitch need to have a 'distraction' requirement to help them weave with Flashback.

And I skipped Water and Wood, because they're elemental and they need work anyway.

New topic: Wall Climber

I want to roll the wall-climbing features into Claws, since it seems to fit better, it will help build up that relatively mundane Ablution, and it will leave more evidence (claw marks in the walls).

In its place, I will follow Vree's suggestion about elemental means of transportation with the following Ablution:

Void Step More demonic than divine, the Oroboroi gains the ability to exploit humanity's fear of Darkness. For her, the shadows become portals. She steps into one, and emerges from another. The Oroboroi may sink through a shadow that is at least the size of her body. As her appendages enter one shadow, they exit another within a number of yards equal to (Resolve + Dexterity) x Points Manifest. If the two shadows are not connected, 'well lit' yards count double towards this shift. The Oroboroi need not know where the shadow she is exiting is actually located. As such, this ability can be used to slip through walls. If the shadow she is shifting into is suddenly illuminated (most likely by someone turning on the lights), she instantly suffers three lethal wounds to 'tear free' from the banished darkness. To void step, the Oroboroi must pay one Breath this scene. Type: Sequential Cost: 1 Breath for the Scene. Dice Pool: None Action: None Tells Minor: The dragon’s shadow is visibly darker than it should be for the light source. Moderate: The dragon's shadow is pitch black, regardless of the amount of light. The shadow also defies light sources, being cast solely from the position of the sun in the sky. Major: As moderate, but the shadow has a mind of its own. It does not mime it's owner's actions.

Exploding Frogs

Re: Philosophies: A big problem with the current set of Philosophies is that they don't feel like Y-splats. They feel like a second set of X-splats. The problem is that they define the means a Dragon uses to achieve their ends, but don't really say much about what those goals actually are, which is the inverse of what a good Y-splat should be.

Look at Mage. It is perfectly viable to play an Acanthus Guardian of the Veil who conceals magic by enforcing restrictive oaths upon Sleepers. Or an Acanthus of the Silver Ladder who uses oaths to bind the loyalties of his Assembly together. Or an Acanthus of the Free Council who uses oaths to manipulate Sleepers into enlightenment. Or an Acanthus of the Adamantine Arrow, who uses oaths to enforce justice. Or an Acanthus of the Mysterium, who uses oaths to bind holders of dangerous knowledge to secrecy.

The same goes for any other power a Mage has at their disposal: Order doesn't determine whether you'll use it, but ratherwhat you'll be using it for.

Conversely, the current Philosophies are just like Methods, the X-splat, in that they say how a Dragon approaches problems but not what those problems actually are.

It is my opinion that Philosophies (or whatever the rewritten Y-splats turn out to be called) shouldn't play any role in determining a Dragon's innate powers, including Edicts. That's what X-splats, and to a lesser extent Z-splats, are for. The Y- splat's role is to be a connection between the character and the setting.

Re: Ablutions: Something that's always bothered me about Ablutions is the way that their tells tend to result in a Dragon with a lot of manifest points looking like a bizarre hodgepodge of bestial traits rather than anything draconic. Degrees of Divinity and True Form help a bit, but it still seems kind of clunky and awkward.

What if we abandoned the current system of tells entirely? Instead, have a player come up with what their Dragon looks like at each Degree of Divinity, based on the Ablutions they've selected. This will result in a much smoother transition from "human" to "True Form". Plus each Ablution can be customized in appearance this way based on the individual so that it fits with their overall body plan, avoiding the "biological mashup" effect.

Vree

I agree with everything you said except for the two last parts.

Ablution Tells: I think the general idea is that you look draconic IN GENERAL regardless of what Ablutions you have as you increase Degree Of Divinity (scales, fangs, tail, stature, that kind of stuff), the tells just give you suggestions on how to make your dragon look unique. I really like this system.

I especially love that it is essentially just fluff. If you cut all the Tells, nothing would change; you could give a unified "you look more dragon" or something and nothing would change. But that's not what RPing is about, right? Every Tell is like a small gem of an idea to incorporate into your character concept and colorful GM descriptions.

Y-splats not having a connection to Edicts: I disagree with that, too, strongly actually. I like my splats to tie in immediately to bonuses. Now obviously, there are many ways how you can actually DO that, they can use any approach. - The way you regian power points. - Your weakness/Achilles heel. - Bonuses to Attributes and Skills (direct increase, 10/9-again, etc.) Or for example, Vampire's covenants determine whether you will be spending Willpower or power points, and if you'll use instant or extended rolls, BESIDE the powers they get.

But I like it if the bonuses are clear as soon as I look at the splats. From a designer POV, I also like if it is immediately clear how these will have an overall effect on the game.

(Again from Pathogen: I tried to make Z-splats which worked like this: one of them get Merits; another gets unique equipment; a third gets a second set of "magic" powers, etc., trying to cover various bases.

But you could just as well do stuff like: this one gets time reduction; this one gets bonus die; this one gets to reroll, etcetra.)

I'm also not so comfortable with "loose hanging" powers. If there are X Edicts, then I want to be able to categorize them, justify why there is that number of them and why they cover those topics.

Just a list of random unorganized stuff because they seemed cool would be my nightmare. xD

Shock

In a way, We are ripping off of Mummy (or once you think about it, Mummy is ripping off of us considering Dragon was around as a concept before Mummy was even talked about). I agree that once a Dragon has claimed a Provinces, the mortals around start either thinking highly of the dragon or start to fear him but either way start respecting him as an informal leader.

For an example, A hospital CEO may the one who officially heads and runs the hospital but has come to lean on a certain janitor for advice. Same with all the doctors, nurses, and the occasional visitor. Formally, they are all higher than the Dragon but informally, the janitor (who is the Dragon in this case) runs the show.

However, When I started coming up with Provinces, I ran into a problem. What defines a Provinces? A certain amount of people? A bloodline? A site? A district of a city? If all of the above, then how do we supply mechanics to deal with interacting all of the above? moving beyond that. I've always pictured Dragons having more mystical and direct interactions with their Provinces than Kindred. Kindred have to deal with politicking to get a scrap of land and usually rule because the Prince has allowed them to rule. Dragons, by contrast, see a void in land/people/idea and attempt to make something out it.

For example: I've often thought about making a Yakuza Dragon who's Province abilities are of manipulating shadows. The abilities are akin to him walking into a shadow and reappearing out of another one while in his Province, throwing up a shadow to momentary blind a person, and killing one of his soldiers to allow the shadows to take the body and have it remade into cannon fodder Alan Wake style.

Distinctly Dragon? probably not, but it is horrifying if you are encountering it.

For another example of a Province that I've had in my head for a while is a Dragon who a botnet herder. His Province isn't of the physical world but rather the botnets that he controls via the internet. I have yet to make special abilities for affecting his Province.

As a result, I've often thought about giving Dragon special abilities that they may only use while in their Provinces (If you see me type Domain, just swap it out for Province in your head.) to help illustrate the point and give the player some metaphysical connection of the Province.

As for Dragon society as a whole. Look at the Warring States period of China or Italy in 1084. A normal city that is host to several Dragons (30-100) will be divided up into feuding "nations" and dynasties. anyways, enough of that brain dump about Provinces.

Personally, I would be very wary about putting this in the game due to unintentionally offending people.

That being said, I did make a Christian based then-Y splat ages ago which was based around a group of Church based Dragons where based largely the following:

And, lo, suddenly there came forth from the cave many dragons; and when the children saw them, they cried out in great terror. Then Jesus went down from the bosom of His mother, and stood on His feet before the dragons; and they adored Jesus, and thereafter retired.

-- The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, Chapter 18

They are also paranoid about abuses of power because in their eyes, the Beast from the Book of Revelation will be Dragon who has gone insane from abuses of power (The Beast has seven heads. Much akin to a very screwed up Hydra) and as a result, tend to beat other Dragons (and each other) up about abusing humanity and not following the Mandate.

Could merge the two ideas and see what happens.

Vree

More random idea: maybe one could do a spread similar to Mage's?:

Air/Water Earth/Fire Wood/Metal Light/Darkness (+ or =Spirits/Dreamtide?)

Air/Water dragons: weather gods who can command the rivers and the winds. They fly and swim, can help others travel great distances in the air or at sea, and forge waves and winds into destructive tornados and tsunamis.

(they receive Flying and Aquatic, and the Water/Air edicts.)

Eart/Fire dragons: Dragons with great strenght and strong flame that dwell in vulcanic caves. They bring earthquakes and vulcanic eruptions.

(they receive Fireproof and Burrowing, and the Earth/Fire edicts.)

Wood/Metal dragons: Industrial-type dragons, the most connected with civilization.

Light/Darkness dragons: Leader and priests? They can forge things from sunlight or shadow. (the last one is really an expansion of the "shadow" themed laws, except you can opt for light or darkness based on your preference)

Since there were so many air/water merge suggestions, maybe it could be justified like this. :p

More Ecit pickings:

The 3rd ability in Phantom, Rigor (pretending to be dead) is not only quite useless, but it only has little to do with its category (it seems a body/hyppocratic thing more, if anything). If you really had to have a pretend-dead power, it could be easily incorporated into Project, you just had to it the same way as every other supernatural creature who look dead while their spirit is out of the body. (I mean, the left body only speaking truth wouléd be nice...If it didn't feel like a separate power (making someone tell the truth) and I didn't find it why it works differently for dragons.)

Some Phantom abilities that'd be cool: - Project (entering Twilight) - this one is obviously needed - Ancestral Spirits - the dragon summons a number of Ghosts or Spirits that are connected to the place, pulling them from the Shadow and the Underworld. Effectiveness Rating affects the number of entities summoned and how old the spirits can be (eg. at 1 Effectiveness you can only speak to the recently dead). Say, each Effectiveness adds another generation (ca. +25 years). You gain the ability to sense these entities and speak to them in theor own tongue. - Spirit Fountain: Your dragon can convert a number of Breath points equal to Effectiveness into Essence. Essence can be used to bribe ghosts and spirits and make them perform various tasks for you. (PS this is effectively "command ghost/spirit", but in the WoD, you do not take direct control of a spiritual entity; you bargain with it. That's how it is.) --- Water Edict:

Solute: I'd rather this was an extension of the existing Venoms/Noxious Breath ablutions. Do something from the old dragon myths where the dragon was so poisonous, its breath and saliva even poisoned the eart, water and air, that kind of stuff.

Other Water Law suggestion:

FLOW:

The dragon can change the currents of water and air. They can water flow backwards, changing the direction of rivers, or simply return spilled water (or other liquids) into a glass or jug.

While this Law is in effect, the Dragon can add his effectiveness to his speed when swimming or flying, while anyone going against the current has their speed reduced by the same amount. If the adjustment is higher than the person's speed, the person is carried away by the wind or water current despite all theeir struggling.

This ability can also be used to deal damage. The dragon creates a whirlpool or a small tornado. First, the target gets pulled toward this center, then if they can not escape they take Bashing damage based on Effectiveness as the pressure crushes their body. A large enough whirlpool can even swallow and destroy ships or houses.

They can create dangerous whirlpools in lakes or at sea that swallow ships. Liquid can also be formed into massive blasts to attack enemies with. A dragon can create waves, even tsunamis, at sea, but they can also make water exit from a pool and wash down whoever is standing nearby.

- OK, this is not an actual Law suggestion; after all, 'I' want the Edicts to be compound powers where each Law is relatively weak. Rather, I'd want this effect to replace Solute AND Freeze, with Storm Call staying. (well, not "want". Just trying to play with how these powers would feel more "appropriate". Mythologically, freezing stuff is not a sea god power.)

Shock wrote: Personally, I would be very wary about putting this in the game due to unintentionally offending people.

Well, they were re-made from the scholars of the 5 evils so I couldn't help making them look a bit bad. xD But that's not too difficult an angle to lose.

Shock wrote: Could merge the two ideas and see what happens.

Absolutely.

And I think one may be surprised about how positively religious folk may react to some stuff. I do believe that there are people out there, for whom the fact that dragons as presented as heroic and positive, when the Bible says they are not, MAY actually be a problem; and may even welcome that they are allowed to approach them from the angle they were taught. I definitely do not intend to offend anyone, but I find the angle that shaped up unintentionally from merging evil dragons with Abrahamic views intriguing.

Shock wrote: anyways, enough of that brain dump about Provinces.

No no, go on, it is all very interesting. I always wanted more about how you guys intended Provinces to be, given that there is very little material on them in the book.

Shock wrote: For an example, A hospital CEO may the one who officially heads and runs the hospital but has come to lean on a certain janitor for advice. Same with all the doctors, nurses, and the occasional visitor. Formally, they are all higher than the Dragon but informally, the janitor (who is the Dragon in this case) runs the show.

However, When I started coming up with Provinces, I ran into a problem. What defines a Provinces? A certain amount of people? A bloodline? A site? A district of a city? If all of the above, then how do we supply mechanics to deal with interacting all of the above?

Apart from the excellent ideas you listed (and I agree that territory is not neccessarily geographical - a dragon whose interest extends to another territory almost has an "embassy" or "enclave" there, maybe this loose definition of what makes a Province is why there are constant conflicts between them), I think a Dragon defines his province in terms of other Dragons. (And also other supernaturals.)

Basically, as long as the Dragon is the single supernatural allowed to go around in a Province, it is theirs - even if they do not actually do anything. So keeping a Province mostly consists of chasing away other Dragons and their servants. This can also mean that, for example, if a dragon CEO tries to expand his business into your territory, then you quietly make sure that that business will fail. If you don't do this, you lose some of your Province.

How does this affect other supernaturals? Well for a start, I think a lot of the time, the dragon simply doesn't know about them. So the question never comes up. It is different with big groups of vampires (or werewolves, if the Province is off skirts), that means immediate war.

Of course, another supernatural can simply accept the dragon as the official sovereign. Many supernaturals (Mages, Changelings, Prometheans) simply doN't care who is in charge. The same would be unthinkable for a dragon: if a dragon swears allegiance to antoher dragon, that dragon, is probably very old and crippled and sick and can not survive on their own. It is a sign of such weakness that the dragon who yielded loses all respect, and may have to fear for his life from other heart-seekers. After all, he should be building his own Province and not reside in another dragon's in the first place.

How you force the PLAYERS to engage in all this is a different subject. I think if you build the world rightly so that they have this sort of pressure (another dragon comes in town, they ignore him and suddenly they are bombarded with questions about why they are letting him take their Province and not to something about it) may be enough, so maybe you can deal with it just with fluff. The new Ethics may help too. but idk really.

Exploding Frogs

I think there might have been a miscommunication somewhere. I wasn't suggesting that the unique appearance of each Ablution be eliminated and replaced with generic dragon-ness; I agree that that would be boring. What I was suggesting was: Build a True Form, incorporating all of your Ablutions. (Obviously, this means that your True Form may change over time as you spend experience on more Ablutions.) Design the Ablutions such that they fit in with your overall body plan, (so you don't have a bizarre reptilian mash-up of carp whiskers, bull horns, a dorsal fin, bat wings, and glowing halo unless that's actually what you were going for) and then decide how you look at each lesser Degree of Divinity. What does each Ablution look like as you become smaller, less dragon, more human? How do they become less conspicuous?

This does not mean that a Dragon must become generically more dragonlike without manifesting the traits of specific Ablutions. It means that the Ablutions they have won't clash with one another or with their True Form. It also means that you can have stuff like "Wings" that manifest as a cloudy nimbus enabling wingless flight.

Basically, I'm not so much advocating getting rid of tells so much as I am suggesting integrating their design more closely with True Form. While you interpreted the tells as suggestions, I interpreted them as "this is what these traits look like. Period." With that assumption in mind, is my proposed solution a feasible one?

And I certainly wasn't suggesting that Edicts be completely unanchored to anything. Why not link them to Method instead of Philosophy?

The thing is, Y-splats don't typically provide access to the core powers of a splat. They shape how a character is inclined to use those powers. Mage's Orders, for example, don't control access to Arcana; they provide rotes and the skills to use them, additional archetypes for magical tools, access to certain Legacies, and Order-exclusive benefits in the form of Merits. Vampire's allow access to Blood Sorcery, Coils, and other tricks, but those aren't the core powers of the game.

I will admit that I exaggerated when I said that Y-splats shouldn't provide any powers. But they clearly don't provide the same sort of powers as X-splats, and Edicts are very clearly an X-splat power.

CJC

That was actually intended, it just wasn't executed well. I'll add a note to the section about Tells that explains Players may change the appearance of any Ablution by keeping the following in mind:

A minor tell (triggered at one point manifest) is something that will appear strange if observed with scrutiny. They're hard to spot, but if you see them you can tell they're... off.

A moderate tell (triggered at three points manifest) is something that can be concealed, but only with advance preparation. In all probability, if a Dragon intends to conceal moderate features she will need to 'dress for rain' as it were and plan her occlusion before she leaves the house.

A major tell (triggered at five points manifest) cannot be concealed by any means.

Quote: Vampire's allow access to Blood Sorcery, Coils, and other tricks

That's actually why I tacked Edicts on to the Philosophies. I guess in my mind the Ablutions are X-splat powers, and the Edicts are Y-splat powers. I know that's unusual (templates don't usually get Y-splat powers)... so perhaps they ARE both X- splat powers.

@Vree Hmm... twilight state, huh? Well, what about a power that renders the Oroboroi intangible (in a Twilight state), but not invisible (we've got Chameleon Hide for that). While they're intangible they can of course move through certain surfaces and even people, but they cannot be harmed (because they're intangible). ...But that tastes a lot like Burrowing Body. Hmm... EDIT: Ah, you said using Dream as an Ablution. That is a very interesting prospect; I need to consider the implications.

You were talking about common Ablutions you would use if some space were cleared up? Well, we're going to have two spots (Horns is moving into Degree of Divinity and Wall Climber is merging with Claws). Got any ideas?

EDIT: And Void Step... what about using that as an Edict Law (for Phantom, perhaps?). It's just so... Batman, it's very hard to resist.

Vree

Ah, I see I left it out from post #103 in the end - I actually had another suggestion there, that that if you wanted shadow powers, you could just make them their own Edict.

Shadow Laws: - Void Step (as above, travels to one shadow to another within Effectiveness range in only one turn) - In Their Shadow (as before, forms servants out of shadow) - Shadow Forge (new) - creates an object from shadow, which can be anything simple (complex tech is excluded). If a tool or a weapon, it has a die bonus equal to Effectiveness / 2. It exists for Effectiveness number of turns.

(This doesn't really satisfy my "Laws should be cross reliant" drive tho; if I wanted to do that I'd go with Laws like: - Quench Light Increase the darkness in the area; range is based on Effectiveness. (You need around Effectiveness 3-4 to completely darken a small room.) An useful ability for quick getaways, and awesome if the dragon has senses that work in the dark too while the enemies do not. And of course, it makes using the other shadow Laws easier. (eg. you can teleport from any part of the room to another using Void Step.) --- And maybe you could add a Light Edict too, then?

"Astral" isn"t really true to its name right now, so a split would be justified.

A more logical distribution would look like this:

Light/Shadow powers as their own Edicts

Phantom: Powers rellating to ghosts/spirits and the Twilight.

Astral: Powers related to the Dreamtide?

-> You know, I don't know how dragons travel to the dreamtide actually. But cou could even combine it with Twilight travel.

So, if the Dragon has to be asleep to travel to the Dreamtide, then in the first step his mind (spirit) exists his body and enters the Twilight state. Then it proceeds into the Dreamtide. The body appears to be sleeping (or DEAD) in both cases.

Or, if you want the dragon to travel there in body, then too you can do it the same way for both. The dragon is part spirit, so he can enter these worlds naturally, without having to leave behind a body.

You could even make that an Ablution, just a natural part of how the dragon is.

--- Horns are going away as an Ablution, when did that happen?

Joebobjoe wrote:

There were also a couple of npcs with weird disconnects between backstory and method like the trickster who got her heart through mail order (should be an inheritor if I read the backstory correctly).

I think that'd count as a Finder, maybe. It's a weird way to receive a Heart.

When I proposed assigning 2 attributes to Methods above, one type of Wits Finder were the ones who stumbled upon their Heart by blind luck; they gain Wits because they were quick enough to grab the opportunity rather than stop to think and let it slip away.

Vree

Actually, there are plenty of dragon depictions without horns, but even the modern dragon image only shows them as decorative stuff. The Degrees Of Divinity treat them the same way too. The kind of large horns that are useful for attacking, it would be strange if those were uniform.

On that note, I noticed there was no Ablution for fangs, but instead they are included in Degree Of Divinity too, right?

Just wanna point out that Werewolf has some rules (p. 170 and onwards) that ask for large animal creatures to establish a grapple before they can use their bite. (I'll all for reducing unneccessary complications, just thought I'd point that out.)

Fuuny thing is, I think I read Degrees Of Divinity wwrong previously. I thought the character would become more dragon-like with more Ablutions manifest, and a True Form would be something similar to an actual dragon.

But it seems that @Frog was right and I should instead be imagining some sort of reptilian mutant, right?

Would it be strange if I suggested that True Form and high Degrees should be actual dragons? And the composite forms, like in the pics posted on the first page in this thread, should be the in-between forms?

That'd be the same mechanically, but with Degrees also granting extra Size.

The Werewolf forms (p. 170 again) are a good comparison. Bonus to tooth & claw damage, bonus to perception rolls, bonus to size & base speed.

Mentally, you can assign these to some ablutions too: movement method abilities - base Speed natural weaponry abilities - bonus damage sense abilities - bonus to perception

I'd definitely like more Size - dragons only get the first + at DoD 6, that's worse than a werewolf! - but I'd actually like them to get a LOT more than a werewolf, I'd like to have them grow big. Starting out humble, but potentially house sized or bigger at high DoDs.

Plus if you give a lot of bonus Size, then you have a by-effect that I really like: that a Dragon who got beaten up proper (mostly Aggravated wounds) will be forced to stay in dragon form until he's healed (he needs to maintain the temporary Health dots).

Shock

It should be noted that picking up a Dragon's Heart at a Goblin Market is generally a bad idea. Even if you are getting one that is an Ouroboroi Heart (and one that hasn't been infected with Fae Magicks to boot. Those ones have nasty side effects), You better not be in the Hedge and If you are, Get out.

Reasons being is (normal, not the Fae crazed ones) Dragons in the hedge tend to dry out everything around them. The grass, the "flora", etc. It dries it out and makes it look like a patch of Texas pasture in a middle of four year drought. Goblin Fruits "plants" don't produce, Hobgoblins want to get out of dodge as fast as they can, and bodies of water simply grow legs and run like hell out of the Dragon's presence.

The effect following the Dragon and progresses in stages. The final stage is when everything catches on fire. The final stage doesn't harm the dragon but harms everything else within the vicinity. Changelings, Mortals, Hobgoblins, True Fae, etc. The effect is localized (determained by the Dragon's Furnace) so the fire doesn't burn down the whole Hedge but during this time, The Dragon is going to be unlikely to find anything to eat, Anyone who help the Dragon has to overcome the feeling of being on fire, And the entire blaze is going to summon True Fae in droves intent on not on capturing the Dragon but killing it before it can burn down their favorite hunting grounds (and that is if the Dragon's hasn't already been killed by Changelings).

And as promised, some more on Proviences.

As a rich uncle told me "You either own the land or you work the land". In Dragon, this may be the case. In ancient china, the governments use administrative provinces known as Zhou (look up some chinese cities and you can usually pick out the ones that have Zhou as a suffix), with Commanderies on the second tier with Prefectures.

At this point, I am tempted to axe the system into two tiers but meh. Let's see how it pans out.

Now naturally, In a city, let's say we have a few dragons. In fact, we have a quite a lot of dragons. More than enough to ensure that only a few of them have title to any land.

So now we have a problem. So many Dragons in one place that they (GASP!) have to form a society. Give then the Dragon mindset, it seems we have to make them more social (and less likely to rip each others head's off when you stick more than one in a room).

Now naturally, The most powerful Dragons are usually the ones who own the land (holding it by various means) and the rest usually have to pledge vassalage to one or the others to keep in the city. Sort of Kindred's Neo-feudalism.

Unlike Kindred's Neo-feudalism, There is usually no main head guy in charge. Much like China's Warring State's period, or Italy's Papal states, The most powerful Dragons usually have set up their own states and spend most of the time warring and politicking with each other. The State of Bob gets powerful and decides to push the state of Vree around only to alarm the other states of Ronald, and Kravan to come to Vree's aid not because they like Vree but they view bob as getting too aggressive and want to put it back in it's place.

Another good example is the tangle of alliances right before world war one. Tense peace quickly followed by a series of insane bloodbaths which again is usually followed by tense peace.

What this means is the Heads of the states are usually tolerate of other dragons setting up camp in their Province provided they fight when called. The vassal Dragons are allowed to pick sites to set up their own provinces and usually have their pick of the litter (the Head dragons could try to act tyrannical on would be vassals but by and large, that would simply only make them pull up stakes and make them switch to the other States). the States themselves are called Zhou (don't know what the plural is) while the vassal are usually called Prefectures.

I have yet to hammer out the terminology quite yet so this will change. anyways. That's it for the Macro level. I'll see about starting on the micro level on how dragons run their provinces when it comes to mortals.

Vree

I found an interesting snippet in the Degree Of Divinity 8 description. "She may now draw nourishment from the worship or fear of others. Rate the fear or worship a mortal experiences from 1 to 3, with 3 being complete reverence or terror. The Oroboroi gains that much Breath this scene."

It occurs to me that if you replaced the binge eating Breath gain (which we said could use work) with regaining Breath through reverence, fear and worship, you'd have a perfect explanation for why dragons build Provinces.

(Also their obsession with finding suitable Maidens and Hoards, which provide them with an alternate solution, but which come with their own set of problems.)

Since dragons need to spend a point of Breath a day for survival, even a rabid dragon living in the wilderness by himself would have to go out and terrorize the occassional farmer family (at least once a week or so) to ensure his Breath uptake.

So a Province works sort of like a vampire hunting ground - a good Province means that the dragon can walk among a group of mortals and receive respect. The more respect (and more daily Breath) he can get out of this, the more powerful the dragon.

Also, if Fossilization is the result of not being able to pay your daily Breath, and Provinces provide you with the opportunities to regain Breath, then obviuosly, losing your Province can result in Fossilization, another thing we wanted.

Also, if a True Heart's advantage is being free from their daily Breath loss, then that means that a True Heart is much more likely to act like a "good" dragon, because HER survival does not depend on commanding fear and respect, so she has much more room for acting friendly with mortals or treating them as equals.

Idk what you think, but it seems like it could make a lot of things fall in place. :p

CJC

...I like this.

On an unrelated note, here's this: I don't want to cluster Laws together to fill in dots 2 and 4 of Edicts, because I had a better idea.

On even dots in an Edict, the Dragon acquires an Ordinance. Ordinances are the Edict equivalent of Skill specialties. They declare a specific type of target (of the Player's choice), and when the Edict is used against that target (with ANY of its laws), it gains a +2 to activate and a +2 to its Effect Rating. This would require small tweaks to ensure each law of a single Edict targets the same type of thing (most of them do this already). For example, a Dragon with the Network Edict might take an 'Emergency Worker' ordinance, allowing her to traverse two more social connections when sending a signal through a firefighter, EMT, or police officer. A Dragon with the Husbandry Edict might take an 'Apex Predator' ordinance, making her proclamations more effective against bears, big cats, and killer whales.

Obviously, the scope of an Ordinance is a little wider than a Skill's specialty due to the scaling expense, but the benefit is also greater.

I'm not prepared to discuss Degree of Divinity in this post, I need to read the section again.

Well, the Oroboroi are not actually dragons, they're half dragon. So without extensive Ablutions they attain a hybrid appearance (DoD 8 is the only ACTUAL dragon form that they can attain).

Quote: That'd be the same mechanically, but with Degrees also granting extra Size.

We can amp up the size bumps a bit, I suppose (DoD 3 = +1 total, DoD 4 = +2 total, DoD 5 = +3 total, DoD 6 = +5 total, then get zany from there). We can't marginalize the benefit of Colossal Beast, though. If you want to be as big as a house, you have to take the right Ablution.

Hmm... and your statement about the general boosts... we've already got the 'Weaponry' Ablutions that are receiving boosts, so I guess we could tack on a 'Motion' label to certain Ablutions and give generic boosts to that as well. I'm going to veto the perception one, though, that's pretty much wrapped up in a single Ablution. We'll strip out the Perception bonus completely, to help balance out these other bumps (you have to remember that more size means more Health, and you yourself complained about how indestructible the Oroboroi are).

Vree

Yeah, I was a bit bummed that I won't get a Werewolf-like human + dragon + humandragon set, and I fantasized a bit about how I could go about tweaking True Form into the dragon form (I'd love to be able to play a dragon form as soon as I'm still only Greenhorn, even if it's only a small dragon), but I re-read the Degrees Of Divinity after that and I had to admit that this was a case of personal preference, and that the system - sadly - works already, and I'd have to needlessly upset it. :p

There was an interesting realization I stumbled upon in the process though. You are familiar with Leviathan:tT so you may have seen the system (courtesy of Blues Raven) they tried to come up with for modelling very large sizes. It is cludgy, but the one to really blame for that is the WoD system which is notably bad at modelling anything that isn't human-sized.

My grand plan was that I'd let them gather extra Size from Degrees Of Divinity and/or Colossal Beast, and when you activate the True Form, I'd DOUBLE the whole package. So if you were normal human Size 5, then you'd become Size 10. (The size of a very big horse.) But larger dragons could reach even bigger (elephantine and above) sizes.

However, this sudden growth would NOT grant any extra Health boxes. Instead, the damage downgrade would be the justified with this size increase.

Raven's whole attempt is a testament to how bad it can get if you try to demonstrate large size with the extra health boxes. Look at it: you will see that beside the huuge number of Health boxes, they also give damage reduction and downgrade, but in a very complicated way. And it occured to me that we already have the solution here - a huge jump in size can be demonstrated by a simple damage up-or downgrade. Presumably you could even say, model an insect by having it upgrade all Bashing damage to Aggravated, or a colossal beast who can only be scratched by Aggravated and even downgrades that to Bashing. (But of course, those wouldn't work too well because there are only 3 damage types so they run out of them.) But for something that is only slightly big - and dragon only needs that - it'd be perfect!

Well anyway, that attempt kinda died (I'll live with hybrid dragons), but I wanted to share it.

I think the question is what should be under the Suit Of Hearts and what should be granted by Degrees Of Divinity, here. The way dragons are built, a LOT of what makes up a dragon are Ablutions, meaning that most dragons, unles they buy it, do not have them. For example, your average high DoD dragon does not have claws, does not have protective scales, and isn't big. I'm not so sure about that.

Let me make a list here, for candidates for swapping around.

Colossal Size: It is actually not impossible to have this both as an Ablution and as DoD levels. Leviathan:tT does it the same way, where various aspects (the Bahamutan faction, known for their large size; +levels of Depth (their Degrees of D) + the right power) can be combined to create a truly colossal beast (if that is what the player wants). So we have freedom with this one because either of 2 OR both can all work.

Claws: I THINK this should actually be DoD related - all dragons would have claws. But the fact that we'd merge this with wall-walking (which I 100% agree with) kinda defeats that option.

DoD: currently includes these:

Tail (attack + balance) Bite Speed (if on all fours) general Ablution damage upgrade scent-based perception Strenght bonus (5+ Divinity only) Size bonus (5+ Divinity only)

I think the only strange one here is scent-based perception - I don't really know why it was that one of the 5 senses that was picked for this. If it gets reassigned like we talked before, I won't miss it.

The rest look fine.

If you wanted to satisfy my perversity you could potentially start everything a lot sooner, so you'd gain a +1 Str and +1 Size at DoD 2 for every level afterwards, and at DoD 3 you'd already look like a dragon.

But the truth is, the system is fine like this. The text is very well written and I'd hate to mess with it.

PS. Scent being emphasized may be a result of Werewolf:tF and how the senses are treated in the WoD. But Listenning has its own rules too, so I still don't think that scent needs to be prioritized. (Some text about the dragon growing large ears.) It IS true that snakes have very good sense of smell (the snake's forked tongue as we know is actually an organ of smell), but they also have good sight. And many other reptiles have excellent hearing.

CJC

Improved sense of smell was requested specifically by PaladinDemo during one of his play-tests. At the moment we had no powers that boosted smell, so it was placed in Degree of Divinity (as the mouth and nose expand into a maw, the sinuses enlarge and might become more sensitive to stimulus). But... we're doing Keen Senses (or a different name that is better and not a Vampire power), so we've got that covered now.

As for 'Motion', I'd just change the Speed (All Fours) bonus to a Speed (Motion Ablutions and All Fours) bonus. So a higher DoD dragon burrows faster, flies faster, swims faster, and can traverse higher-temperature flames (plus whatever we settle on for the fifth motion). But if she doesn't have any of those Ablutions, she can still move at greater speed by dropping down to all fours.

Shock

Alright, Time to continue typing about Dragon-Mortal interactions when it comes to their Provinces.

Dragons by and large, have an informal power relationships most of the people in their Provinces. Reasons being is most dragons may not be high up the the organization's chain to begin with (for now). However, that does change over time. Let's say intern Bob managed to get a heart and is now a Dragon. His bosses and coworkers will start like they need to put him in a leadership position. It's an unconscious instinct. Even if he fails, They still see him in a somewhat positive light (enough to give him another shot).

Outside of that, people start looking to the Dragon for help with their lives. Again unconscious instinct but this starts to get more noticeable. People start looking to the Dragon for direction. It's usually around this time that a Dragons starts cult building.

Granted that mortals remember seeing Dragons, Most (if not all dragons) usually have an inner circle who know that they are dealing with something unworldly and the outer cult which simply knows that the Dragon is important and it's best to ride on the curtails. granted this is an extreme oversimplification. A Dragon may have a cult in which no one realizes he is otherworldly (example: leaders of a social club) or where everyone realizes he is, in fact, a dragon (Small rural town where everyone fears that big beast on the mountain top).

As for site Provenances, here are some stuff to work with: Classification attributes. All sites have various ratings of 0-5 (zero is included in the scale).

1. Political (Government, etc). 2. Social (Night clubs, restaurants, etc) 3. Criminal (Sites where criminal operations can take place without Police getting in the way.. Chop shops, Shady pawn shops, etc) 4. Economical (Sites where clean money can be made, AKA money that you don't have to make up an excuse where it came from.) 5. Security (How defensible to site is if attacked). 6. Dream? (How the Dreamtide laps and whips around reality. May need CJC to expand on this).

Political allows you to cash in excess Resources for favors. the number system is used to allow for the types of favors you can have.

1: Traffic ticket called off/very minor violation being overlooked. 2. Having a crash report stated that the other person is at fault/a crime scene investigation not involving a murder delayed/a warrant not involving a murder revoked/getting a person in a city government agency. 3.Delaying a homicide investigation/stopping a crime scene investigation not involving a murder/Getting a person put in a low position in a state government agency/Sealing up parts of the city's sewer system. 4. Stopping a crime scene investigation involving a murder/Getting an army base built close to the city/making sure that police don't patrol a certain area. 5. Writing/influencing an federal agency's policy, etc.

Social allows to information and perception in society in general. The rating system is used to determine +die modifiers can be used on rolls to gain information or on rolls that use the Fame merit.

Criminal allows for criminal operations to gain money and/or get access to weaponry or other things such as stolen cars, crime tools, etc. Storage sites for illegal goods are counted as criminal. The rating system is used to gather cash or access to tools. If used for cash, the Dragon gains an amount of Resources per chronicle. If used for access to weaponry or the like, the rating system determines the stuff they can get.

1. basic pistol/ basic lock picking tools, 2. sporting rifle/shotgun, bike, inventing new IDs etc. 3. automatic rifle/sub machine gun, stolen car, etc. 4.military grade weaponry 5. military grade vehicles and tanks,

The issue with Criminal ones is they have a chance of getting raided (ST rolls a single die in the beginning of each session. If it comes up a one, the site will be raided during the course of that session) player actions such having police investigations called off (Gets you the site back but you still have the chance of getting raided in the near future) or simply not to patrol a certain area any more (Never have to fear about being raided in the area again).

There is also the issue of the IRS auditing you.

Economical is simple. It exists for (clean) money. This rating is the number of Resources a dragon can get from the site.

Security is how defensible the site is should worse come to worse. A one story shack should be a security 0 while an army base have security rating of 5. Security also takes into account guards and their training.

Dream is something I need some thought in. Roughly, It's how much the Dreamtide likes to bump up against the real world. Places where imaginations run wild (Kindergarten Classrooms, Insane Asylums) have high Dream while other places such as a grueling office complex have low to zero Dream.

Example sites:

1. Night Club.

Political: 0 (the night club has little to no political influence as no officials frequent it enough to for the Dragon that owns it to leave an impression). Social: 4 (The night club is one of the better hubs of the city.) Criminal: 2 (The dragon tolerates a gang of criminals that use his place to meet up. frequently picking up a cut from their jobs). Economical: 3 (the nightclub sees a decent amount of revenue). Security 3 (The number of bouncers are low but they are well trained). Dream 3 (people come to relax and a chance to score with each other).

2. Army base

Political: 4 (High rank allows for much more strings to be pulled with no questions asked). Social: 1 (Most people are here for work and need to know) Criminal: 1 (A few guards may allow for some drugs to slip in but anything else is off the table). Economical: 0 (no money to be made here). Security 5 (Military weaponry and personal are the best things to hide behind. Who would've thunk it?) Dream: 0 (Very stable).

Vree

CJC wrote: As for 'Motion', I'd just change the Speed (All Fours) bonus to a Speed (Motion Ablutions and All Fours) bonus. So a higher DoD dragon burrows faster, flies faster, swims faster, and can traverse higher-temperature flames (plus whatever we settle on for the fifth motion). But if she doesn't have any of those Ablutions, she can still move at greater speed by dropping down to all fours.

Absolutely. I kind of like these general bonuses - bonus to Speed, bonus to biological weaponry, bonus to Perception, but what those actually mean depends on the Ablutions you have purchased. But that may just be because I like things "tidy", it may not actually be sensical from a system POV. xD

You could even move Bite and Tail out of DoD (both being natural weaponry choices, too) to being Ablutions. If you let imagination roam a bit and you imagine for example frog-like or axolotl-like dragons, or lion-like ones like the Chinese lions, it seems that neither fangs nor tail HAS to be compulsory (although they'd be extremely common, going into the Suit Of Hearts).

Fangs/Claws - yeah sorry, I just mixed up two words there (English, how does it work?)

Shock wrote:

1. Political (Government, etc). 2. Social (Night clubs, restaurants, etc) 3. Criminal (Sites where criminal operations can take place without Police getting in the way.. Chop shops, Shady pawn shops, etc) 4. Economical (Sites where clean money can be made, AKA money that you don't have to make up an excuse where it came from.) 5. Security (How defensible to site is if attacked). 6. Dream? (How the Dreamtide laps and whips around reality. May need CJC to expand on this).

That seems a bit half-baked yet, idk if you want to have these replace regular Status and Resources or what, plus the categories are a bit iffy ("Social" is probably better called "Entertainment", and Security does not belong in the set at all - it's more like something you can just do with criminal contacts, political power and money).

Shock, what do you think about the idea to reassign Breath to be gained from fear and respect? It seems to me that it'd take care of proplems like this:

Shock wrote: Outside of that, people start looking to the Dragon for help with their lives. Again unconscious instinct but this starts to get more noticeable. People start looking to the Dragon for direction. It's usually around this time that a Dragons starts cult building.

Granted that mortals remember seeing Dragons, Most (if not all dragons) usually have an inner circle who know that they are dealing with something unworldly and the outer cult which simply knows that the Dragon is important and it's best to ride on the curtails.

This is the same thing I struggled with in my own Province motivations build-up, because you need an excuse for Provinces to form, but on the other hand, we do not really want to do the mystical charm on mortals thing. ('Cause it's been done, 'cause it takes away from the interesting relationships between ruler & subjects and the personal efforts of the dragon, etcetra.) But if you make it the DRAGON's interest to do make this happen, then the problem not only solves itself, but the options become more interesting. Because the Dragon has sets of Ablutions and Edicts that she can use to bend mortals to her will, and she can just choose (based on the personality of the dragon) which ones she wants to use, or if she wants to use them at all and not just use her natural skill and charisma.

CJC wrote:

...I like this.

Thanks. It is kind of an egg of Columbus actually, if you want the dragon to be a gluttonous monster you force it to eat, if you want it to be a metaphor for the ruling class you force it to feed from respect. The power point regain is one of your foremost tools to make the monster type act like the monster type, that is how all the splats work. (Vampires are forced to act like blood suckers because Vitae is assigned to blood, Werewolfes can only gain Essence from spirits etc.)

I am dead set now that Colossal Size should be reassigned to DoD levels. The reason is simple. If you have Colossal as a standalone Ablution, then you can change into a 10-foot HUMAN giant. Which is stupid. We're not playing Nephilim: The Giants here, if you increase your size, you should get the reptilian look along with it. So the best choice is to assign this to where all those reptilian traits are treated together, DoD levels.

Another suggestion from me is to shift the numbering of the Degrees a bit. No big change; you only move them down by 1, so that Degree 1 becomes Degree 0, Degree 2 becomes Dgree 1 and so on.

This is because Degree 1 doesn't really do anything, so it can hardly be called a degree; but mostly because it is easier on the math. If the progression is Degree 0, Degree 1, Degree 2 etc. then you always know that the number of active Ablutions you need for each degree is equal to Degree x 5. And the bonuses you get from it are also +1 Strenght, +1 Size, +1 perception, +1 Speed (+2 on all fours), times number of Degree (or Degree -5 if they only become avaliable at higher degrees). The 1st/0th Degree does not add any bonuses, so it is more logical if it is left out of this.

Something else that I'd like to point out: the higher Degrees are a fiction. Your Ablutions are VERY costly, despite having 5 separate ranks and only giving a new power at rank 1 (maybe that cost should be adjusted). How long, under those conditions, does it take for some one to attain just Degree 4 (15 Ablutions?) Under such circumstances, there is no sense in talking about Degrees of 5+ and assigning all the goodies there. For get about Degrees 6-10, they are a fiction (define them as godly form like that of the Old Dragons if you have to do something with them), and distribute that 1-10 between Degrees 1-5 instead. In my book, Degree 6 (my new Degree 5) would as big/scary a dragon as a very old dragon can possibly get (a 1000-year old one, maybe). Degree 5 (my new Degree 4) would be a respectable elder (the 6-Furnace one, the highest type you are likely to actually meet), and Degree 4 (my Degree 3) would be the "normal" elder one, the common leaders and the world movers. The Greenhorns could pick between Degrees 1, 2 and 3 (my 0, 1, and 2), the first being their normal "human" form, the second their eerie half-mutant one and the last one (their "True Form" as long as they only have 10 Ablutions) is already scaly and draconic. Note of course that while Degree 0/1 is the "regular human" one, it still manifests Tells even if only 1-4 are activated, so it covers the "human with something slightly off" base. So Degrees 2 and 3 (1 and 2) do not need to waste time on that. If you want 5+ Ablutions manifested at once, you need to use darkness or cover-up to remain human- looking, while at 10+ Ablutions you do not look human at all.

By the way, I don't think the social effect of Degrees has been defined yet, amirite? So let me step in:

You automatically receive a penalty to all social rolls equal to your Degree Of Divinity. This is part because of others' fear, part because it becomes increasingly difficult to communicate normally as your mouth forms into a jaw, and your voice becomes deep or eerie.

Degree 1/0

You look mortal, and although some things are "off", they are more likely to make some people curious than affect you.

Degree 2/1

You start looking "off", although you can pass it off as natural deformities with some effort.

Degree 3/2

You are a mutant; no hiding it.

Degree 4/3

You look like a dragon. A small one, slightly humanoid, but a dragon still. You have scales, a tail etc. Each subsequent degree only adds bulk and fancier looks (kite-shaped plates on the back, more and more sets of small horns etc.)

Also, I'd consider defining Tells not just by how many ranks you have active in them, but also your Degree. Eg. at Degree 1 you have Minor, at 2 moderate, and at 3 Major in everything no matter what or such.

Fun idea: which people in history do you think were dragons?

I was reminded of this bit from Genius: the Transgression:

Quote: It is also clear that very few of history's great philosophers, savants, and scientists were geniuses. The Inspired are characterized by an inability to express their ideas in universal and comprehensible terms that shape the technological development of the world. Of history's great scientists and thinkers, only Leonardo da Vinci, Nikola Tesla, and Robert Hooke were certainly geniuses. Cases have been made for a number of other thinkers having been Inspired (or beholden), including Hero of Alexandria, Paracelsus, Gottfried Leibniz, Benjamin Franklin, Lady Ada Lovelace, Josef Mengele, Amelia Earheart, Philip K. Dick, and countless others, but evidence for these claims is spotty at best. In general, history's greatest scientists, from Lavoisier to Darwin to Einstein to Turing, were defined by their ability to communicate universal concepts about the world in clear and unambiguous language to the majority of interested and educated human beings, a feat that very few geniuses are capable of replicating, and a task that would not interest most of them even if they could.

(As you may note, some of them on the list are from pop culture (Tesla, certainly, same as how Vampire:tR couldn't leave out Dracula). Leonardo, of course, can not be left out; and Philip K. Dick is a joke.)

So who do you think may have been a dragon in history?

Mao Zedong? Stalin? Ivan the Terrible? Certainly not - just old-fashioned human thirst for power at work there.

Yet, it would be odd if with their lust for power, no dragon'd have risen to the position of a dictator. What kind of person could it be? Someone who acted irregular for a dictator. Someone whose focus seemed to be elsewhere and whose decisions history could not explain. Someone who is something of a myth, or a small pop culture meme. Someone who was ruler for a very short time. Someone who had or died of a mysterious heart disease. Or - because we are funny too - someone you'd not expect. I, for one, am convinced that George Bush is a dragon and all the videos about them being reptilian aliens are true. ;p

A note on True Hearts:

I think you should begin with the assumption that True Hearts are going to be player characters. Ergo, they need to be playable the same as everybody else.

I think the adjustment to the Breath gain takes care of the advantage they could. The part of them activating Edicts without a voice? No. Those are the Old Dragons. No post-collapse dragon can activate Edicts with only a thought. (If an Old Dragon was still around, though...)

Can a dragon become a True Heart again if she places her heart back in its place? I HAVE NO IDEA! (I think there's no problem game mechanically, it is more of a question whether the book (and your GM) allows it or not.)

Are True Hearts a Philosophy? Can a True Heart become a member of another Philosophy? I could see both solutions work.

If True Hearts re a separate Philosophy from the rest, that adds a tiny push to not to juggle your Heart in or out. Because then you have to change your Philosophy! - you can not remain a True Heart Philosopher if you remove your Heart, and you can not stay in the 5 normal Philosophies if you put your Heart back.

On the other hand, maybe True Hearts are the same as everybody else, and they can play together with ease in the same party. The only difference is that the two party members are taking different risks.

Greenhorns, on the other hand, are most definitely NOT a philosophy. "Greenhorn" is a mock name for those who have not been dragons for very long. Do not stop being a Greenhorn if you join a Philosophy right after you become a dragon, either (your new friends will still heckle you because of it). And many of the very old or very powerful dragons are independents, who do not see the need to join a philosophy. (Rogues, Independents, Free Roamers, make up whatever name you want for them, but not being in a Philosophy is quite different than being new.)

I pitched the concept to some of my friends over at the Hungarian RPG forum - I should warn you that they are more familiar with the oWoD, though.

Reactions have been: - That's "Dragonheart"/They stole it from "Dragonheart", right? (Apparently everyone instantly spotted the way the Heart works is indetical to that movie.) - it needs to be more dark Complaints here were that you become something by your own will, rather than against it like in other WoD books; and that there wasn't enough inner struggle. - One guy said that the heart-eating after the Collapse didn't bother him, lots of old hunter cultures did that kind of thing, so they are quite fine with this bit. - There have been a lot of "Ok, but what do you DO in this game?" Opinions were voiced that killing a dragon as a party is exciting, but being the dragon you've got nothing to do. I explained about Provinces to them, but yeah they spotted right away that the challenges (enemies, Province rules, Dreamtide, Hydras/Devourers/Evil scolars etc.) were still half-finished. (I only just sent them more info on these all tho (Deep Ones etc.), I haven't seen their reaction to that.)

Note that they did not read the whole book, only my summaries. (Part of their reaction is probably the norm for anyone who hears about a "WoD dragon game", especially if they are primarily oWoD fans.)

Vree wrote: I am dead set now that Colossal Size should be reassigned to DoD levels. The reason is simple. If you have Colossal as a standalone Ablution, then you can change into a 10-foot HUMAN giant. Which is stupid. We're not playing Nephilim: The Giants here, if you increase your size, you should get the reptilian look along with it. So the best choice is to assign this to where all those reptilian traits are treated together, DoD levels.

'Kay.

Quote: Another suggestion from me is to shift the numbering of the Degrees a bit. No big change; you only move them down by 1, so that Degree 1 becomes Degree 0, Degree 2 becomes Dgree 1 and so on.

This is because Degree 1 doesn't really do anything, so it can hardly be called a degree; but mostly because it is easier on the math.

Well, it doesn't do much, but it does achieve two things: One, it allows a Dragon to use an Edict they have just learned at effect rating 2, even if they have no Ablutions manifest. Two, it allows a Mortal that is aware of the Dragon's condition as an Oroboroi to get a Willpower bonus, even when that Dragon has no Ablutions manifest.

I'll think about shifting them downward.

Quote: Something else that I'd like to point out: the higher Degrees are a fiction. Your Ablutions are VERY costly, despite having 5 separate ranks and only giving a new power at rank 1 (maybe that cost should be adjusted). How long, under those conditions, does it take for some one to attain just Degree 4 (15 Ablutions?)

I figured, since they start with 10 dots of Ablutions, getting to 15 wouldn't be a stretch, but 20 would be something worth achieving. It's flexible, though, and a straight up multiplier to DoD might be easier to keep track of when balancing a bunch of complicated Ablution traits.

Quote: You automatically receive a penalty to all social rolls equal to your Degree Of Divinity. This is part because of others' fear, part because it becomes increasingly difficult to communicate normally as your mouth forms into a jaw, and your voice becomes deep or eerie. This would be a bummer if we went with "fear and reverence" as the primary source of Breath, because the main means through which that fear or reverence would be evoked would be loud, exclamatory band-standing (which the Dragon would be unable to succeed at with heavy penalties).

What about more bashing willpower damage, but on the Dragon's end? To speak with a mortal without making them soil their trousers, the Dragon has to mentally restrain the force of her divinity. When a Dragon speaks with a mortal this scene while at any Degree of Divinity, she suffers bashing damage to her Willpower meter equal to that degree. In addition, subsequent social interactions in the scene suffer an increasing penalty as the Dragon strains to communicate with these 'lesser beings'. (So yes, it would still have a penalty, but one that builds up. Mortals don't experience instant, crushing terror, but they will flee or attack if the conversation runs long)

Quote: Also, I'd consider defining Tells not just by how many ranks you have active in them, but also your Degree. Eg. at Degree 1 you have Minor, at 2 moderate, and at 3 Major in everything no matter what or such. I need to think about this.

About True Hearts We could remove True Heart philosophies and simply have restricted Edicts, in which case placing the Heart back in your chest would return the benefit of being a True Heart. But that has a problem: It works mechanically, but not thematically.

A Dragon needs to decide whether having her Heart in chest is worth the risk, and that kind of decision needs serious weight. So it must be a one-way ticket.

Also, being a True Heart removes much of the tension of the game (fossilization) in place of a much more immediate concern (real death). It... alters the flavor dramatically, and may need more than a few shifts to be viable as a Player option. This is something we need to explore thoroughly in a later post (I'm not ready to discuss it now).

About the responses from the other forum:

DragonHeart is listed as a source in the book (though you said they didn't read the book, so... yeah). But the Heart does not work exactly the same way as it did in that movie (it only does for the Bond of Brood Merit, which was specifically designed for that very reason). And that's not a bad thing. There have been plenty of fantasy stories where two characters share the same life force. EVERYTHING has been written before. The key is to rearrange these familiar topics in a way that is new and refreshing.

Also, everybody says fan splats need to be 'more dark'. There's always going to be somebody who doesn't think a game is broody enough. But I think that, with our discussed Fossilization developments, AND an increased need to collect treasure/invoke fear/demand respect, we've hit a nice concentration. We'll have to see if these ideas hold up in practice, though.

About Famous People being Dragons:

I'm not touching that with a sixty-foot pole. : P

Vree

I feel like I'm completely misunderstanding how Ablutions are purchased, and maybe making some mistaken assumptions because of that. Can someone explain it to me? If I want 5 dots manifested in an Ablution, how do I go about purchasing them?

CJC wrote:

'Kay.

Everything I wrote in that post (about Degrees and dragon forms) is very much personal preference speaking. And after talking to my Hun friends I'm kinda wavering again too. See, you can do classical dragons; or you can do a modernist interptetation. We COULD do a sort of urban, sci-fiesque dragon, with dragon characters looking like in the pics Shock posted on the first page (the Dark Sector ones). And it would be awesome. We'd get a badge for being "original" with the concept, too. On the other hand, the nWoD was always the traditionalist. You don't get werewolves and rat-creatures sommersaulting around while shooting UZIs at each other like in the oWoD anymore. No, you get a werewolf who prefers to fight with claws and who turns on a full moon. There may be all kinds of weird things added, sure - spirit hunting, Prometheans being alchemists, but when you look at the core, you always see a geniune Universal Studios monster.

So that's why I tried to adjust the Degrees to be a true human-to-dragon transition, one truthful to the classical depiction, that lets the player feel like one.

Now, you can take things from the -other- direction, and go for the hybrid look and feel, though. Maybe people will like that more, too! I would probably enjoy it, too.

But I think the game wasn't built in that direction. :p The major Ablutions for example, they all support the myhological dragon look. You use words like True Form, True Heart and Greenhorn. You could not change directions without losing all that legendary sounding baggage, so it's probably better to stick with the other direction for now.

CJC wrote:

Well, it doesn't do much, but it does achieve two things: One, it allows a Dragon to use an Edict they have just learned at effect rating 2, even if they have no Ablutions manifest. Two, it allows a Mortal that is aware of the Dragon's condition as an Oroboroi to get a Willpower bonus, even when that Dragon has no Ablutions manifest.

Is it ok for me to ask for how those work, I don't remember seeing them under Degrees, so I don't know where in the text they are. ^^;

-- I'll skip the next parts about DoD levels, because it seems we understand each other just fine there.

CJC wrote: Quote: You automatically receive a penalty to all social rolls equal to your Degree Of Divinity. This is part because of others' fear, part because it becomes increasingly difficult to communicate normally as your mouth forms into a jaw, and your voice becomes deep or eerie. This would be a bummer if we went with "fear and reverence" as the primary source of Breath, because the main means through which that fear or reverence would be evoked would be loud, exclamatory band-standing (which the Dragon would be unable to succeed at with heavy penalties).

What about more bashing willpower damage, but on the Dragon's end? To speak with a mortal without making them soil their trousers, the Dragon has to mentally restrain the force of her divinity. When a Dragon speaks with a mortal this scene while at any Degree of Divinity, she suffers bashing damage to her Willpower meter equal to that degree. In addition, subsequent social interactions in the scene suffer an increasing penalty as the Dragon strains to communicate with these 'lesser beings'. (So yes, it would still have a penalty, but one that builds up. Mortals don't experience instant, crushing terror, but they will flee or attack if the conversation runs long)

I'll need to think about this too, and how I feel about the Willpower damage in general. (Do I like it more than other methods.) I like it as a concept, I just don't like how easily it is thrown around as an effect for stuff.

I think my main concern was how easy it was for mortals to get Willpower damage around a dragon in the current write up, which seemed to conflict with the idea of dragons being socialites, and colleagues/servants.

Anyway, Well, logically, what would happen? Mortals will not talk to the dragon, and he will have difficulty talking too, and may even find it difficult mentally. On the other hand the dragon becomes more frightening, draws more attention, and looks more majestic. What if only speech based interactions got penalized, but all others would remain the same, or even increase?

I'll talk a bit more about Breath-hunting ideas below regarding Shock's post.

CJC wrote: About True Hearts We could remove True Heart philosophies and simply have restricted Edicts, in which case placing the Heart back in your chest would return the benefit of being a True Heart. But that has a problem: It works mechanically, but not thematically.

A Dragon needs to decide whether having her Heart in chest is worth the risk, and that kind of decision needs serious weight. So it must be a one-way ticket.

Also, being a True Heart removes much of the tension of the game (fossilization) in place of a much more immediate concern (real death). It... alters the flavor dramatically, and may need more than a few shifts to be viable as a Player option. This is something we need to explore thoroughly in a later post (I'm not ready to discuss it now).

My problem is with seeing what you want the True Hearts to be. Benevolent NPCs with unique powers walking around in the background? What for?

It's the players who are the heroes of the tale, the ones who get the best powers, the ones who are more moral/empathic than other dragons, I can not see NPC-only super paragons as anything but GM's favourites, spotlight-hoggers.

Real death risk - I think you may find that more people will take that option than you'd think. The reason is, when you remove your heart and put it in a guarded lair, you are, in a way, putting your fate in the GM's hand. You don't know if he'll suddenly not inform you that someone broke into your lair and took your heart. On the other hand, if you are a True Heart, then the only way the GM can kill you or take your heart is by going through you, your character. With all the Ablutions you can use to protect yourself, this may actually seem like a safer option, and I have no doubt that a lot of players with GM paranoia will go for it.

That's all True Hearts need to be, IMO.

(Also, the part about activating Edicts without speaking? Forget it. That's Old Dragons. No Dragon after the Collapse has been able to activate Edicts with only a thought. Of course, if some of the Old Dragons are somehow still around...)

CJC wrote: About the responses from the other forum:

Haha, I hope these didn't upset you or anything. I just tought it'd be interesting, because they sometimes point to where the main areas to work on are.

They were bang on about a few things:

- challenges/possible adventures/antagonists - Province (the politics of it after we nail down the mechanics), Dreamtide can both use the expansion Hydras - Who are they? Are the heads a new Ablution or tied to something else? what happens to them in human form? Can a Hydra still enter the Dreamtide, use Edicts and True Form etc.? Devourers - is eating a second Heart like Diablerie mechanically, granting more Furnace? What are the other advantages or side effects? (While on the topic, how does a dragon increase his Furnace - not the exp bit, but what does that mean in the game?) - how do people come to the Methods, really? Why are so many regular mortals so well equipped to gain an interest in dragons, seek them out, defeat them, AND know what to do with their heart? How come they are all loners? (You don't hear about a dragon having his old friends they killed the previous Heart owner with around.) - what was the Collapse REALLY like? If there are thousands of dragons today, and no new hearts can be created, does that mean that many dragons were killed then? If it was such a major battle all over the world, why doesn't humanity still remember it today?

Shock wrote: Well, to be honest, I was moderately intoxicated when I wrote that and doing another brain dump. In a way, I was thinking about ways to give STs a system where players can have access to Resources but now in retrospect, it seems too easy.

In terms of gaining Breath from fear and worship, I love the idea and it will be included into the system but beyond using a cult for Breath gaining, what else is it useful for? That's what I was trying to expand on a bit.

Lol, does everyone browse this thread while sleep deprived or tipsy? (Yeah don't worry, I do, too.)

I did start writing up a system for this, but I had to leave for work and by the time left it completely escaped my brain. (The only thing I remember is that there were three things about it I had to not forget. I need better mnemonics.)

What I recall is that I started a list of situations that could be used for Breath gaining, and wanted to present that as a system. Compare Vampire hunting rolls.

- A night in the town. - Going out for colleagues and making a funny joke, etc. This uses Socialize. - A business meeting where the dragon solves an important technical problem. - A political debate that the dragon completely dominates. (Persuasion) - A stage act where the dragon has success. - Calling an employee in your office and humbling him.

But also stuff like: - The dragon putting on an an air show while mortal children are watching. - Making a thug in an alley cower in fear and completely submit to you.

If the dragon successfully awes the people who are present, he regains a point of Breath from each person. You can only gain one point of Breath from a person a day. [maybe the person should lose a point of WP too? idk]

Any action that can be used for regaining Breath is an action that can be resisted with Composure or Resolve. If the roll fails on the person because of that, no Breath is regained and the Dragon must try again.

The dragon knows immediately if she has regained Breath from someone. Also, Breath can only be gained from regular mortals - never from other dragons or supernaturals.

If the dragon fails to regain Breath repeatedly from someone, she may develop a Personal Interest. This is bad for supernaturals, as it may blow their cover. It is not much better for normal mortals either though. The dragon may use different attempts to "break" them, and if he can't, interest may turn into obsession. Many arch-rivalries were born this way, or the dragon may try to make the person their personal servant or Maiden.

(Why are dragons so obsessed with people who can resist them? Simple. High resistance means high Composure and Resolve, which are the stats used to resist damage when witnessing what a dragon is. Meaning that people like these are best fit for witnessing the dragon display her true form, and not go mad. This makes them suited to be the dragon's personal servants.)

CJC

Vree wrote: I feel like I'm completely misunderstanding how Ablutions are purchased, and maybe making some mistaken assumptions because of that. Can someone explain it to me? If I want 5 dots manifested in an Ablution, how do I go about purchasing them?

You purchase the dots just like you would purchase an Attribute (and they have the same costs). So they have to be paid for in order. Since some Ablutions grant bonuses to Attributes, but at a cost to Breath, it might be a good idea to make them New Dots x4 for in-Method dots, and New x 5 for Out-of-Method dots.

Vree wrote: Now, you can take things from the -other- direction, and go for the hybrid look and feel, though. Maybe people will like that more, too! I would probably enjoy it, too. I think this is the path to take, regardless of the fluff. The fluff is flexible. The system, though, was designed for hybrid beings.

Vree wrote: Is it ok for me to ask for how those work, I don't remember seeing them under Degrees, so I don't know where in the text they are. ^^;

EDIT: The response to this quote is simply a clarification of the rules as written as of this moment. It is not a declaration of what the rules WILL be

At the start of the Edicts section, it states that Effect Rating is equal to the proficiency in the Edict, PLUS the Degree of Divinity, minus one for each time the Edict has been used in the scene. As such, at DoD 1 (human form), all Edicts are boosted in effect by 1. p. 133 of the All Text explains that awareness of a dragon's condition adds the DoD as a bonus whenever the Mortal uses Willpower against the Dragon. For example, a fighting style that requires Willpower used against a DoD 2 dragon would receive a +2 to the roll, because Willpower was used against the Dragon. Using determination to steel defenses against a DoD 1 dragon would increase resistances by 3 instead of 2, because DoD is added to the increase (Willpower was used against the dragon).

Vree wrote: Anyway, Well, logically, what would happen? Mortals will not talk to the dragon, and he will have difficulty talking too, and may even find it difficult mentally. On the other hand the dragon becomes more frightening, draws more attention, and looks more majestic. What if only speech based interactions got penalized, but all others would remain the same, or even increase?

That I can back with confidence, because Dragons are more likely to communicate with their Ablutions than without them (hell, many of the Ablutions BOOST social skills, it wouldn't be fair to just nullify that).

Vree wrote: My problem is with seeing what you want the True Hearts to be. Benevolent NPCs with unique powers walking around in the background? What for? Well, they need to exist because removing the Heart is one of the core ideas of the game, and not every person who becomes an Oroboroi is going to be willing to rip open their chest and tear out a vital organ.

If the Heartbeat penalty applied regardless of whether the Heart was in chest or in a box, it would encourage characters to remove it before their chest beats out a samba in public. But that feels a little... slapstick?

Vree wrote: Also, the part about activating Edicts without speaking? Forget it. That's Old Dragons. No Dragon after the Collapse has been able to activate Edicts with only a thought. Of course, if some of the Old Dragons are somehow still around...

Gotcha.

Vree wrote: Hydras - Who are they? Are the heads a new Ablution or tied to something else? what happens to them in human form? Can a Hydra still enter the Dreamtide, use Edicts and True Form etc.?

Hydras cannot DISBAND Ablutions, so they inevitably end up perpetually in True Form as they unknowingly tap into their fonts of power. They cannot use Edicts as they cannot form a coherent thought to proclaim them. I don't think they have the sense to travel to the Dreamtide either. They usually feed, sleep, then feed again (they're very unsophisticated). The heads are a variation of the "Two Minds, One Body" major Death derangement, but the personality affixed is not an Antecedent but rather one of the Dragon's greatest shames given life.

Quote: Devourers - is eating a second Heart like Diablerie mechanically, granting more Furnace?

Yes.

Vree wrote: What are the other advantages or side effects? (While on the topic, how does a dragon increase his Furnace - not the exp bit, but what does that mean in the game?) - how do people come to the Methods, really? Why are so many regular mortals so well equipped to gain an interest in dragons, seek them out, defeat them, AND know what to do with their heart? How come they are all loners? (You don't hear about a dragon having his old friends they killed the previous Heart owner with around.)

Some of these questions are answered with the inter-chapter stories. People usually come to the Oroboroi after they stumble upon them through one means or another (witnessing an Ablution or several Edict proclamations, or spying on a potential rival for that promotion). And it's not that they're equipped, it's that the Dragons they depose are unequipped to face them. As for the Heart itself, the beat draws Mortals in. They have an instinctual compulsion to consume it. Plus, it's delicious (or it will be after the rewrite).

Quote: What was the Collapse REALLY like? If there are thousands of dragons today, and no new hearts can be created, does that mean that many dragons were killed then? If it was such a major battle all over the world, why doesn't humanity still remember it today?

The original dragons were killed. Those that were not took refuge in the corners of reality, hiding from the Mortals that defeated them. These events predated the written word, so they are not remembered by man. Stories handed down through oral tradition built the Collapse up as a myth, and without any lingering evidence Science rebuked it.

Vree wrote: What I recall is that I started a list of situations that could be used for Breath gaining, and wanted to present that as a system. Compare Vampire hunting rolls.

- A night in the town. - Going out for colleagues and making a funny joke, etc. This uses Socialize. - A business meeting where the dragon solves an important technical problem. - A political debate that the dragon completely dominates. (Persuasion) - A stage act where the dragon has success. - Calling an employee in your office and humbling him.

But also stuff like: - The dragon putting on an an air show while mortal children are watching. - Making a thug in an alley cower in fear and completely submit to you.

If the dragon successfully awes the people who are present, he regains a point of Breath from each person. You can only gain one point of Breath from a person a day. [maybe the person should lose a point of WP too? idk]

Any action that can be used for regaining Breath is an action that can be resisted with Composure or Resolve. If the roll fails on the person because of that, no Breath is regained and the Dragon must try again.

The dragon knows immediately if she has regained Breath from someone. Also, Breath can only be gained from regular mortals - never from other dragons or supernaturals.

If the dragon fails to regain Breath repeatedly from someone, she may develop a Personal Interest. This is bad for supernaturals, as it may blow their cover. It is not much better for normal mortals either though. The dragon may use different attempts to "break" them, and if he can't, interest may turn into obsession. Many arch-rivalries were born this way, or the dragon may try to make the person their personal servant or Maiden.

(Why are dragons so obsessed with people who can resist them? Simple. High resistance means high Composure and Resolve, which are the stats used to resist damage when witnessing what a dragon is. Meaning that people like these are best fit for witnessing the dragon display her true form, and not go mad. This makes them suited to be the dragon's personal servants.)

You said you forgot pieces? Looks pretty complete to me. It's nice and free-form, too, which is a refreshing change from Meals (I just couldn't get them to work).

On Motion I am so tempted to give one of the forms of motion to each of the Methods. Challengers already sort of do this with Natural Inspiration (walk on water), and we were going to end up with five movements anyway.

Slayers (Blades) -> Fire Skin [Fire Step] Finders (Spades) -> Burrowing Body [Earth Step] Challengers (Diamonds) -> Natural Inspiration [Water Step] Trickster (Clubs) -> Void Step [If we do this, it's going here, no objections! It fits perfectly for Tricksters] Inheritor (Goblets) -> Wings [Air Step]

EDIT: We will change Natural Inspiration into a viable Water Step similar to your suggestion about Aquatic Body, to make the Ablution more viable in general (something that gives other people social bonuses? Not so great).

The only one that bothers me is Wings, because, well... it's such a uniform ability and to give it at such a discount to the Inheritors... it feels weird.

The advantage to this? Adding a new Ablution to each method frees up tons of space in the Hearts Suit. With these and Colossal Beast out of the way, we have room for five new general Ablutions. You said you had some traits you wanted explored? If we move Sympathetic Scale (Spades) and Eye of Value (Spades) into the general pool, then Finders will have room for more 'searching' Ablutions.

I have another topic I wish to discuss, but this post is already too long. It will have to wait.

Vree

CJC wrote:

You purchase the dots just like you would purchase an Attribute (and they have the same costs). So they have to be paid for in order. Since some Ablutions grant bonuses to Attributes, but at a cost to Breath, it might be a good idea to make them New Dots x4 for in-Method dots, and New x 5 for Out-of-Method dots.

Yeah, that is what worries me - you buy each level of an Ablution separately. That is a bigger exp drain than what most supernaturals have to deal with - you buy an ability, AND then you spend exp to upgrade it. And levels in most Ablutions do not really grant much - a +1 to one minor attribute or another usually. For example, I get a bonus to a skill by buying Fork -Tongued or Chameleon Skin, but you'd be a lot better off exp-wise if you bought the skills themselves, instead. At 5x levels, an Ablution costs the same as raising an Attribute. But you get less than that worth in most cases. For example additional dots in Impervious Hide give a measly +1/0 Armor, and while most Ablutions do a good job trying to add extra uses, like Colossal Size adding to size as well as grappling manouvers, or Claws (son to be) adding to climbing, and not just the attack dice, that's still only about the half the uses a dot of Strenght or Stamina give you, which have 3-4 basic uses and also increase other die pools. Is it worth it to pay 10 exp for the second dot of Health from Colossal Size? (or 15,20, etc. for the 3rd,4th...) It is not more useful than a dot of Stamina, that's for sure!

Maybe I'm wrong about this - I haven't really done the math. But doesn't it just make you want to do away with having to buy the extra dots?

Of course, when I consider how much a Vampire has to pay for Vigor, and that the Dragons pay the same for Draconic Strenght (both abilities are temporary, so buying more Strenght is much better for a low-Str character) , it all doesn't seem that bad.

I guess this is another of those cases where I just don't know what I'm talking about well enough :p Or when I want things to be tidy or stylish for no reason but that it pleases me. Sorry.

But still, food for thought: - Maybe you could ask for a little more for the first levels of attributions and only a reduced (say, half) cost for subsequent levels? (Impervious Hide -which grants Bulletproof at 1- or Flying) - Maybe you could do it Leviathan-style - you unlock an Ablution, and subsequent levels are earned not by additional dot activations, but the Deegree of Divinity you are in? So, if you have Draconic Strenght, then, at DoD 1 you have +1 Str and a Minor Tell, at DoD 3 you have +3 and a Medium or Major tell? The nice part here of course is that if you buy a new Ablution, it is always a brand new Ablution. Maybe you pay a bit more for that 1st level, but you do not have to put exp into that one ever again.

Anyway it seems that I'm the one in the wrong here, so I'll shut up now.

(I may only be jealous of Mages and Geniuses, who buy a dot in an Arcanum or Axiom and get whole new avenues of power, while I have to spend like, ten times the exp as them just to get that sh*tty claw up to doing 5 damage. :p)

Shock

Simply put, The mortals that go after Dragons are usually of two sets: Hunters or normal mortals. The Hunters talked about either know a bit about Dragons (mostly how to kill them) or have access to resources that can bring it up but usually the one of the things that a Hunter digs up is going to be the Heart. These guys then end up wanting the power themselves or aiding in the extinction of the species.

Then you have Joe Blow. He may have simply killed a Dragon by dumb luck (Dragon may have been threatening his family and he killed it), buried it in the backyard but yet keeps hearing that heart beat. Like the Poe story, he can't get the heart beat out of his head. Eventually he digs up the body and then, acting on instinct, eats it.

As for loners. That may be somewhat characterization. I have a few NPCs sitting around in my head that really need to be stated out and a good percentage of them are not loners.

That being said, The entire concept of the Collapse happens like this: The progenitor (Father/Mother of all Dragons) comes along while the earth is being created and is given the job to govern it well. It largely does this job and in the meantime, either breeds or simply makes workers to help govern the land. These are the Dragons of Old.

Eventually, The Progenitor starts to fail in it's duties. It gets lazy. It gets tyrannical. Dragons of Old bring this up and the Progenitor usually responds by simply eating them. Eventually, The Dragons of Old decide enough is enough and fought with the Progenitor. They manage to kill it and as a result, each of them starts to devour it. As they devour it, they gain some parts of it's powers and it's original mandate. You killed your boss? You take his job.

And all was well for a while. The Dragons of Old ruled well and grew numerous. The earth prospered under it's their rule. Many new species arose, one of which was Man. The Dragons of Old saw Man as a species to shepherd. To guide. To rule.

However, Eventually the Dragons of Old grew lazy. They grew tyrannical. Instead of guiding, they dominated. Instead of inspiring hope, they spread fear. The nations of man grew ever fearful and wanted to escape out from under the thumb of their masters. One day, A crafty human killed her draconian overseer and hid the body with her tribe. The elders knew that they couldn't hide the body forever and decided to eat it to get rid of the evidence.

Those who drank of the Dragon's blood grew pale and became the Ever Thirsty. Those who ate of the Dragon's Brain became uncontrollable and escaped into the wilds in a fit of Rage. Those who ate of the Dragon's Soul watched as the powers of the universe bent around their Will. The Woman who killed her overseer ate the Dragon's Heart. As she did, she felt the change and felt the weight of the Mandate on her shoulders. She knew what she had to do.

In the year that followed. The Dragons of Old were hunted down by their former subjects and slaves. Some humans rebelled in retribution. Others, Simply because they envied the power. Some managed to escape into the Dreamtide. Others, deep in the forsaken parts of the earth. Most weren't so lucky.

In the following years, The newly formed Ouroboroi took control. They felt the weight of the Mandate upon them and they swore, this time.. this time, it would be different.

That's all i got for now.

Vree

One more reason for me to want DoD one to become DoD zero, then. :p

I think the bonus to Edict use should be a trade-off for displaying your monstrosity (and beyond just one Minor Tell). You move closer to a form that calls out to the ancient memories inside the Dreamtide, and your Edicts get the power of being spoken by a being of clear majesty and divinity behind them. A human clowning around with some extra bulk trying to pass herself off as a dragon and receive the same rights would just make the powers who are watching laugh.

I think I prefer CJC's explanation for this - if the people coming to dragonhood would mostly be hunters, that'd seriously limit your character choices, and make my friends' complaints about those limitations completely valid.

About the Heart drwaing mortals to consume it (the beating and the radiance of sheer power draws you closer and closer, and as you hold it or stand before it, in a flash you instantly know what it is and what you must do with it - it is an offering of great power, and you only have to grab it that so for it too all be yours (and of course, you never learn the small print)) - YES. Fluff that out and put that in the book. It is important that this is made clear, because it is going to be one way to expand the character concepts that can arrive to the splat.

And yes, I was thinking that the Oroboroi lack of supernatural invisibility (and the drive, now, to display them even more sometimes for Breath), plus human curiosity, should be the main method of this happening. Anyone can become a dragon and fall into this world if you just witness another dragon near you and you are foolish (or brave?) enough to investigate.

The one thing I don't buy is dragons not being well equipped to deal with attackers. With all their Ablutions and Edicts they do not have much to fear. However, the Mandate compulsion (not being able to resist a challenge, even if it puts you in an unfair contest) may help a bit with that.

It'd be nice to have some way to do away with groups of people who may take out a dragon together, though. A group of thugs take out a greenhorn dragon. The Boss finds the Heart, and it calls out to him, awakening his greed, making him consume it. What happens during this change, and what becomes of the rest of the gang? Does theIs the new dragon compelled to change shape for the first time then and there, maybe with additional fireworks? Does the rest of the gang just burn to death? Or do they get their minds shattered by the true form? Or do they beome enthralled servants?

I think I'd go with that second option - when you consume the Heart, your True Form is displayed in a showy manner for the first time with terrifying intensity. Any mortals that are witness are likely to go at least slightly mad, so if you were hunting for the Heart as a group, they'll probably be lost to you.

On the other hand, maybe you had a friend or follower with exceptional resolve and will and faith in you which traits allow him to remain unharmed. Good - he'll make a good first servant. (Remeber what I said before about dragons needing high Res + Com people to be their close servitors? :p )

X-nay on the First Progenitor thing; I don't like adding a Hive Queen and a single deity, and we already have a Father Wolf and the Forsaken story, we do not need another Titans-and-Zeus deicide where each generation of gods kills the previous one.

In my book, dragons were a race of beings, a thousands-years-old culture, like mankind but they came before and lived in another plane, one made from dreams and magic, the Dreamtide.

They were mostly benevolent and honorable, even moreso than humans, but also prideful; everything that today's dragon's Mandate consists of, but turned up to eleven. The Old Dragons could not waver about these laws, as they were their very nature. As such, when the humans rose up against them, they were ill equipped, not because ther powers were weak - they easily wielded more power than a thousand mortals - but because their own concepts of honor and pride binded them. So when the human warriors came and proposed challenges - silly human games, that only a naive mortal could thinkg could would defeat a being like a dragon - the dragons had no choice but to comply. And the humans eventually learned how they could win - by finding the challenges that the dragons could not win at. And so humanity had a way that could beat the dragons. And they did, defeating them one by one. The last few dragons, seeing that their time was over, and that humanity will take control of eartha and its own fate, retreated to the Dreamtide and entered a deep slumber, where they remain to this day.

When they arrived to the Fallen World from the Dreamtide and took the position of its rulers, the dragons did it naturally; they had the wisdom and the power to pull it off, in a time when humankind (albeit numerous) was littl more than animals, struggling among themselves and for survival itself. Taking control of these ant-like beings (as well as the other aspects of the chaotic nature of this world) therefore could even be seen as an act of benevolence. And this was how humanity first learned (from the dragons ordering them to do so) about building cultures, science, and even the practice of electing rulers, which became a staple of every human culture that followed.

Consequences of the Collapse:

With dragonkind gone or in deep sleep, the Dreamtide is left without its watchers. Before they entered the human world, dragons were the Dreamtide's foremost denizens and guardians. So the Dreamtide currently has to face these problems: - creatures of dream who would like to take the position of the old dragons, but are ill equipped to do so. - nightmare creatures from the depths of the dreamtide (Shayatins?) In the olden days, the dragons drove them away before they could become a problem (not because they were running a public service, but because the Dreamtide was THEIR kingdom). With them gone, they run rampant in the Dreamtide, and have even began piercing the dream to enter the Fallen World and cause trouble there. - the Deep Ones: these horrifying beings were the dragons' foremost rivals within the Dreamtide, and dragonkind fought wars for the Dreamtide against them once. They come from so deep from the Dream that some say it is practically a different plane of existence. The dragons always won, and the Deep Ones were constrained to their depths. Although the Deep One are constrained in some way to their own plane (a last emergency magical prison on the side of the old dragons, maybe?) they are as powerful if not more as the old dragons were, and have begun expanding their presence (with the dragons gone) and explore not just the Dreamtide but also beyond. It is said that if a Deep One can collect enough organs, they can break through the border that the old dragons set up - or maybe just overcome thee limitations of being made from dreams and dread, and such having problems forming a body in the real world and even sometimes the Dreamtide - and they can even enter our world. (Actually, let me define it like this: -- the Primodeal Sea: the land of the Deep Ones, a sea of half-thoughts, alien emotions, the feelings of living creatures from before intelligent thought evolved. This basic feeling is commonly called Dread - that basic clinging to life and fear of everything that may harm or end it that defines every living being. The Deep Ones are formed of Dread. -- the Dreamtide: A world of dreams, formed when creatures first developed the ability to think and imagine. The Deep Ones are strongly interested in this world, which seems to them so much more warm and cozy than the coldness and daily struggle of their own realm. Of course, once a Deep One enters here, he contaminates everything he touches, his own Dread radiating everything, transforming parts of the Dreamtide into wastelandish places, just other parts of the Primodeal Sea that slowly washes the Dreamtide away. -- the Fallen World: The world of mortals; the world of physical bodies. The old dragons learned how to enter it, and how to make themselves physical in it. The Deep Ones do not know, as they are beings of dream matter more strongly that the old dragons, who were half dream and half physical; but that does not stop them from experimenting. It is said that their collection of organs is their attempt to eventually put themselves together as physical beings. The Deep Ones can even "bargain" with animals, and in some respects this is easier: you offer some food for a fish or protection from predators, and take a tail or fin in exchange. But human organs are more valuable as humans have advanced thought and emotion, and so their bits give power even in the Dreamtide.) - The dragons who came after the Old Dragons, the original new ones, neglected the Dreamtide and focused on their dominion in the physical world. It was only in the modern times that the dragons started to explore these realms again. The place is a mess, and though, and the new dragons are so much weaker than the old ones it is difficult to get themselves accepted. Yet, more and more young dragons enter the Dreamtide and reclaim some of the knowledge or magic buried there as it is their birtright. (I tend to classify dragons based on the Language: Draconic: -- Old Dragons: the original pre-collapse ones. -- New Old Dragons: The first heart -eaters who were common up to the Mesopotamian era, more powerful than today's dragons (having directly inherited much of the Old Dragon's knowledge) but also more ruthless and primitive. -- New Generation: The dragons today. Sort of a reconcilation between the traditions of the first two groups, and while they are weaker (ohysically and magically) than both, they also have a bunch of modern knowledge and culture that helps them.)

There is little doubt in me that the current dreamwalking rules will have to go (check Changeling starting from p. 190 and count how many overlaps you find). But a lot of the enemy stuff (especially the Deep Ones) is going to need almost no changes even after being tweaked.

What I want to use the Dreamtide as is a place for adventures and self-discovery, a place to learn more about one's draconic side, and a challenge (a goal or "something to do") for the players.

Shock

Indeed. The truth is that these are legends and mine was 80% bullshit anyways . As long as the creation myth has the following points.

1. The need for the Mandate. 2. Why are they are dying out. 3. explaining on the Dreamtide and how Dragons came to be in the first place. 4. Explanation of the Deep Ones.

Then it has everything set to be a valid reasons to exist in the Dragon community. Most myths are mostly allegorical anyways (Mage being on of Hubris, Werewolf explaining why they police the Shadow) and exist simply to serve as direction and source of identity of the teller and believers.

Though don't tell the fundamentalists that..

Vree

I added some bits to the prev. post, I think it covers my thoughts on the Deep Ones pretty well.

1. The Mandate - I think it is just a dragon thing. There are reasons for it, but is is a manifestation of your old Dragon side really. The need is the same as for the other supernaturals - you get the divine power; but if you don't know how to live with it well, it consumes you (meaning that you become so power hungry and immoral that your life and actions have no value, you do not build anything that can be passed on or remembered).

I'm not sure how we reconcile with Mage cosmology, but I think the Dreamtide MAY (?) be identical with the Dreamtime (the Anima Mundi)? The Wod wiki defines it like this: http://wiki.white-wolf.c...dex.php?title=Dreamtime

"The deepest astral realm is the Dreamtime, or the world soul. Vastly impersonal to the human astral traveler, it is the realm of the entire world, human and not human. If one were to go deeper than the Dreamtime, one would theoretically reach the Supernal World, but today, instead all one would find is the Abyss. Above the Dreamtime is the Temenos."

I should ask Blues Raven how they reconciled Mage with Leviathan, because I think there's a bit of Leviathan crossover built into Dragon too.

My creation myth looks like this: 1. the world forms, the Astral Realms begin to form. 2. life forms. the Primodeal Seas, the deepest of the realms of thought, begins to form. The physical world separates from the other realms? Not even the Deep Ones exist yet; the materials of though and soul are too mallable to shape up into anything that complicated. Some basic supernatural beings may exist, they look and behave similar to simple Precambrian life. 3. semi-intelligent life appears (maybe somehow influenced by the realms of soul arriving in the Fallen World, or maybe vica versa). The realms of thought and souls solidify.

This when most of the great gods - the dragons in the Dreamtide; the Deep Ones within the primodeal depths; or Leviathan's old gods - appear and make their first steps.

In the Fallen World, the beginnign of this period is marked by the Cambrian explosion, where all advanced life that will exists today first comes in existence.

This period lasts for a very long time, although time flows differently in different realms. What is millions of years in the Fallen World may be only thousands in the invisible realms.

Anyway, this is the time when the dragons breed and take control of the Dreamtide, becoming its rulers (and one of the first forms of intelligent life and advanced culture ever).

4. humanity first appears. The dragons (who by now have learned how to enter other realms (are the old dragons Mages btw?) enter the Fallen World, and seeing the chaos it is in, take control of several of its aspects, and form it into order. Although they opress humans, they do not consider them to be different than anybody else, and in fact humans end up learning many important things through them. Atlantis may exist during this time. (Humans who have learned how to enter the other realsm from dragons?)

5. The fall (or Collapse). This is when many things go bad at the same time in the WoD. The Fallen World is so solid, it beings to shut out the realsm of dreams and thought. The Mages have to deal with their own internal issues. Humanity rises up and slays the dragons. The Exarchs ascend and pull up the ladder, trapping the few remaining Old Dragons in the Dreamtide. The Fallen World becomes Fallen, and nothing will ever be the same again.

(This is also probably when Marduk slays Tiamat("Leviathan"), and when the Forsaken kill Father Wolf.)

Humanity however celebrates, being free from the oppression by the supernatural. But the supernatural is not gone. This is the time of the first-generation supernaturals, the ones that were directly in touch with the purely supernatural. For them, too, it feels like a thriump, because it seems like they will be the new masters of this new world. However, it is soon obvious that this is not so. They do not have the overwhelming power of the ones before them, and the Fallen World has too little magic. At best, they become legendary monsters, or short-lived tyrants. The more sensible among them become progenitors of the major supernatural bloodlines.

6. today

I'm curious how CJC reacts to all this...

More notes from my excellent friends over at LFG.HU (thank you Zaethus, Feldkurat and Xever!):

- Zaethus convinced me that dragon-hybrids are the way to go. (Well he, posted images like this while yelling "Is that a player character???!" at me, but it got the result. :p ) They seem to prefer the hybrid option for WoD too, so I guess the way you were doing it is fine! (I want to think about how to get them looking more like Shock's images too (even tho he posted them for Grafts)...Those guys looked cool.) He also made the interesting point that "less is more", ie. he would be fine with a human with a dragon bloodline with 1-2 mystical abilities in a WoD game.

- Feldkurat had a lot of interesting ideas, I think these were the best: -- a water serpent dragon who is the head of a Japanese fishing company, and is compelled to have sex with...virgins? -- basilisk who is compelled to build sculpture gardens. -- a stock market bigshot who is compelled to collect gold (Hoard, but also just compelled to do it regardless of hoard in general) or he will go mad, and is hunted by mundane enemies, and is hunted by the revenue service and the CIA who investigate him for embezzlement rather than dragon hunters.

I don't think we had a Basilisk ability yet, maybe under the Earth Edict there'd be room?

The drawbacks/compulsions are interesting too.

- Xever pointed out that the cWoD already had Corax Spirit Eggs, which could be used for inspiration for dragon eggs. To me, the interesting part about that read was that they'd "attune" the egg to a person at birth, but the egg would only hatch years later, suddenly turning the guy into a Corax if he wasn't warned earlier. If you wanted to completely replace the methods with something that works against the turned character's wishes, the old dragons leaving eggs that could hatch and give Hearts to random people could be the way. (But we are not doing that. We have better ideas to make the Methods work.) I also wrote a post in response to Xever which may be worth mentioning here too: He too pointed out that the dragons/old dragons don't really have a moral quandry that'd force them to give up the heart's ownership to another. Fortunately we discussed Mandate doing this so I had a response ready :p but it got me thinking: what are the drawbacks for losing Mandate?

My thought is that losing Mandate ((breaking a vow, acting like a coward) would be equal to losing self-respect, and also respect from others (dragons and province members alike) who witness it. If a breach of Mandate is witnessed, other dragons and the dragon's followers may turn away from him, at least until he fulfills his duty.

It also occured to me that this is an excellent way to play with Methods. What if a Challenger-to-be wins a constest against a dragon, but the dragon refuses to give up the Heart? However, he now committed a grave sin with breaking his word (Mandate 3 or so) so his guards and followers who are at present are looking at him in disappointment, and will not do anything he says until he fulfils his word. But because of the situation, he also can not escape - his followers won't let that, either.

The fun thing here is that the resolution of the situation will decide the Method of the new dragon: - He may take the Heart from the cowardly dragon by trick or by force (he already earned it, so it is not a sin against Morality probably). However, this will change his Method to a Slayer or a Trickster! - Another dragon who is present may step in, disgusted with the behavior of the other dragon, and take the Heart away from him, and give it to the guy who earned it - but that'd probably make the person an Inheritor. - The only option, if the guy wants the Challenger Method for himself, is to leave the scene (as it is clear that even if he challenges the dragon again, she will just refuse to give him the heat even if he wins, again) and try again with another dragon who is going to be more honorable. But what about the owner of the heart who alienated his own followers and dragon allies, and probably stands weakened now? Someone else will be sure to notice, and probably will kill him. Or if the other elder dragon ripped the owner's heart out and offered it, but the person refused it because she did not want to become an Inheritor? The elder dragon will surely not let the Heart go to waste, and may give it to one of his own children. So, by refusing the Heart so that he can he can earn the right Method, the victor near ensured that the Heart will be grabbed by someone else.

And what if the winner realized this in advance, and when that new dragon who got the heart instead of her makes his first steps, she stands in front of him and challenges him to a game - soon earning the Heart she originally wanted, AND her desired Method?

Neat, huh? cont. from #135:

...well, that was a very Mage-y cosmology. ANYWAY.

There is a section about "Realms Invisible" starting Dragon:The Embers p. 28.

I think it's great! I think that whole thing should be kept and used!

My only picking is with the OTHER Dreamtide explanation, starting on p. 170, which puts human dreamers and nightmares there.

It is a very good explanation of the Dreamtime to me if it is a sort of space in the Astral that is close enough to be connected to the other supernatural realms, or maybe a place in the Material Realm that is connected to the local shade realms (depending on if you think the Arcadia here is the same Arcadia etc. or not), or maybe a mirror of the Fallen World on the other side of the supernatural realms...It doesn't really matter.

Talking from the POV of the Leviathan cosmology, maybe dragons and Leviathans are brothers, who were defeated in the same uprising, and who shared the same realm - the dragons lived on the continents, while the elder Leviathans lived in the oceans.

Or maybe the two are different worlds - the Dreamtide being the one closer to humanity, and the Deep Ones coming from the Abyss, or some other place. Or maybe the home of the Deep Ones is still the Dreamtide but the one at the edges where the realm grows weaker.

But of course, dragons don't need to be clear on all that. They only need to know what their own realm is about.

My only request is that the Dreamtide should be the dragons' own supernatural realm - human dreamers should not come into the picture. (Unless they are mages or something.) Dreamtide should be completely about discovering the Old Dragon's home, and doing some good there.

Obviously the Dreamtide MAY be connected to concepts or ideas - it is a supernatural realm after all! But it would be a full fledged place with its own denizens and rules, same as the Underworld, the Shadow, etcetra.

+

I just found this thread: Dragons in NWoD

CJC wrote: The original dragons were tyrants that sustained themselves on mental energy.

So heyy, it seems you had the idea for Breath through awe brewing by the time I did, ey? ;)

Also, I haven't seen much from PaladinDemo in this thread but it seemed he was already ahead on the dynasty stuff?

CJC wrote:

Slayers (Blades) -> Fire Skin [Fire Step] Finders (Spades) -> Burrowing Body [Earth Step] Challengers (Diamonds) -> Natural Inspiration [Water Step] Trickster (Clubs) -> Void Step [If we do this, it's going here, no objections! It fits perfectly for Tricksters] Inheritor (Goblets) -> Wings [Air Step]

Hmm, well I don't want to infect you with my sorting mania. Your 5 senses work perfectly for the Methods, if we want to do them that way. Elements though are whole other story. Either we make the X-or-Y-splat revolve part around the Elements, or we should just leave that out. And if we do, I'd rather do it with the Y-splat. We actually have 5 Elements Edicts already.

Actually I think we said Void Step was an Edict too, right? If we wanted to add an element themed Ablution at all, it would be something like, Astral Body or something.

But yeah, I think we don't need to do this.

It could be that the movements are simply Suit Of Hearts, and the only reason to pick them is because you can boost them with Edicts? For example: a user of the Air Edict may be able to call winds to increase their flying speed, water/swimming, Earth/burrowing: same; and Fire likes being fireproof because they can burn stuff and never get hurt. But nothing automatically tells them to pick that stuff, it's just thing that tend to go better together.

Sorry, it seems I got you into this and now I regret it. xD

CJC

There was a proposed 'Mirror of the Supernal' theory of WoD Cosmology, wherein each Realm invisible reflects a supernal realm and its invisible Arcana. The Hisil is clearly Spirit, the Underworld is Death, and Arcadia is Fate. That left Mind and Prime untended, so I took the description of the Astral Realm (a place of mind alone) and attached it to the visible magic of Space to create the Dreamtide, a realm that parallels with Pandemonium.

This was all before I had actually read Changeling, and before I knew that the Lost could walk in dreams too.

Overlap is okay, but extensive overlap is simply unacceptable. Especially because so many others took the same route and forged their own Astral Realm Invisible.

So I turn to my other parallel, the Prime and Forces world of the Solstice, as an alternative start for dragon-kind. And here is how I would do so.

As I described in an earlier post, the WoD is not as kind to the multi-verse theory than other realities. Where a decision would cause one to shift into an adjacent dimension (turning left instead of right) and result in a split in determinism, the Solstice instead swallows up the alternative in an equinox fracture. The 'turn-right' beings, whose potential forsook them, feel a gravitational pull deeper and deeper into the wilderness, where the concentration of potential will crush them into dust. But those that fight this pull grow strong. Bathed in pure potential, and merging with copies of themselves pruned by the progress of the universe, they mutate and evolve rapidly, becoming something new... something grander than what they were.

When the Earth was but a flicker of flame, the Solstice was practically blinding with potential. Its concentration was completely remarkable, and so the boundary that contained it... the Equinox... shattered, and bathed the molten rubble of the Earth with Ichor. From this a remarkable thing happened... simple molecules gained the ability to arrange the environment around them and propagate. From these proteins came the first beginnings of life, and from that life came more life. Soon the Earth bloomed.

As potential soaked into the soil, the water, the fire, the air, life grew more complicated. Soon it grew the means to make its own paths. And those paths forked, exponentially. They drank deep of the Solstice's bounty, and soon the Ichor was nearly drained dry. However, like any permeable membrane the Equinox sought balance. So it inverted its flow, in an effort reclaim its pilfered bounty.

All manner of Beasts were consumed by the maw of the Solstice. Their physical forms clogged the edges of the Equinox and fossilized, turning to glass. From then on the two were equalized, with the Solstice taking its due each time a path forked.

But life grows ever more complex. And some grew the capacity to fight the pull. The earliest forms of Man that failed to escape the Equinox maw did not allow the Solstice to consume them. They thrived in the new environment. Some turned into scavengers, feeding on the ones to follow. Others embraced the Solstice, waiting for it to bring them new and fantastic things meant to be forgotten. But the greatest of them hated the Solstice and everything it represented. They built up their strength and fought the pull until they could break free, back to the Earth that had spit them out. These were the Dragons of Old.

They descended from the cracks in the Equinox. They were not unchanged for their journey, and they were determined to save others that agony. So the Dragons of Old built Dominion, in the hope of denying Mankind their right to choose, and as such prohibiting their victimization at the hands of the Equinox. To their surprise, the decision to end the decisions of others fed the potential to them. They grew fat on the power of these pruned realities, and the call of deification was all too tempting.

But life finds a way. It will not be restrained. The nations of Man, suppressed for their own protection, rose up to depose their oppressors. But in doing so, they became just what they fought against. "He who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself". They tasted of the Heart, a product of the Solstice, and took the power for their own. But power corrupts, and without the knowledge of the Solstice to bring it in check, the successors became tyrants for no reason. They were dethroned and replaced again and again, all the while the potential of the Heart slipping away with each trade. Beyond the Equinox, now fueled with the food that is pruned potential, enemies of the Dragon grew strong. From behind the scenes they made bargains to weaken the strength of the dynasties, bringing more CHOICE to the world for them to consume from behind the Equinox. This was the Collapse.

These events predate the records of man. It is true that the dragons of old, that entered the Solstice and returned, taught Man much about civilization, literacy, and rule. But their dynasties were things of terror, to be stricken from the minds of their victims, and much is forgotten or blocked out for the health of the mind.

It must be one or the other, the Dreamtide or the Solstice. If we adopt the Solstice, then the dragons of old all began as human beings, warped by the corrupting touch of that invisible world. Likewise, the source of a dragon's power become the effort to DENY others the option of Choice. This keeps the Solstice from growing in strength, as well as feeds the Dragon what she needs to fight off fossilization (as the Heart needs potential to maintain its power, and without a steady supply it sucks its host dry). It also explains why dragons are driven to rule.

Think about it.

Vree

CJC wrote: There was a proposed 'Mirror of the Supernal' theory of WoD Cosmology, wherein each Realm invisible reflects a supernal realm and its invisible Arcana. The Hisil is clearly Spirit, the Underworld is Death, and Arcadia is Fate. That left Mind and Prime untended, so I took the description of the Astral Realm (a place of mind alone) and attached it to the visible magic of Space to create the Dreamtide, a realm that parallels with Pandemonium.

Ah, I think there may be some misunderstanding here - the Astral Space exists, but it is a place between the mage's mind and the Abyss (and the supernatural realms beyond), basically the place of soul. Check it on the WoD wiki.

Not only is it not a part of any supernatural realm, but Mage points out specifically that it is not connected to the Mind Arcana, either:

Quote: p. 285 One might think that the Mind Arcanum would be the best Arcanum to use within Astral Space, but that isn’t necessarily so. Astral Space is the dimension of the soul, not just the mind. All the Arcana have effect there — Life affects the astral body or the astral bodies of others, Matter affects astral objects, and so on. Death is perhaps the least useful, as ghosts are rare (but not unknown — a person’s own sense of being haunted by a deceased person can take the form of a ghost within his Oneiros). These phenomena are all, in a sense, “in the mind,” but it’s more exact to say they’re “in the soul.”

The WoD cosmology looks something like this, as Mage describes it:

Lower Depths THE FALLEN WORLD (aka the Material Realm) Outer Realms Waking Consciousness Dream Consciousness ASTRAL REALMS (past the Astral Treshold) Oneiros - personal soul Temenos - collective soul of mankind Dreamtime - collective soul of all life SUPERNATURAL REALMS (past the Abyss) Aether/Arcadia/Pandemonium/Primal Wild/Stygia

Lower Depths: This is a rumored realm that is MORE "material" than the material realm. @Schock once suggested that dragons may come from here.

Outer Realms: This is just a fancy name for the normal world as we know it. However, it may also hold the Shadow/Underworld/Inferno/Arcadia if you treat these as separate from the supernatural realms or perhaps their material reflections.

Dream Consciousness: This is likely what Changelings can manipulate. (If you wanna include fansplats, then Psychic: The Gifted may deal with the Waking Consciousness. :p)

Astral realms: These are realms of the soul. The top one is created by the mage's own supernatural soul, the second contains the collective souls and knowledge of all humanity, and the third of every living thing, plant or animal.

Mages travel to the Supernatural Realms by crossing the Astral first. They are able to cross the Abyss because they know the locations of the secret ropes and ladders within the Astral that connect to each Watchtower, the only ways to get past the Abyss. It is said that some Mages spend a lot of time in the Astral searching for other paths through the Abyss, maybe to new realms or Watchtowers.

I personally think this actually puts us a much better position; since it is already established that dragons are astral creatures, we should just claim the Astral. ONE realm? F@ck it, we'll claim the centre! we're dragons! The most important creatures in Mage cosmology. ONE realm? We'll put us in a place where we get a great view on all 5, AND the Fallen World too.

We'll keep the name Dreamtide, however. It rhymes with "Dreamtime", the lowest of the Astral planes, so it is a good hint for Mage players - because don't forget, all of what we are discussing here, is crossover cosmology. In Dragon we can call all this anything we like.

There is a book on "Astral Realms" out actually, but I'll cheerfully ignore it. If some asks I have good explanations: - this is not those Astral realms, but their reflection in the fallen world, same as with the supernatural realms. - Astral looks VERY different to dragons than it does to humans; a human views the Astral through the lens of his own species (Temenos, the collective conscious of mankind), but a dragon views it through the eyes and collective knowledge of dragons. Second, mortals are visitors in the Astral realm, the dragons were shaped by it, and travel to places where others don't. - This is its own book, not Mage, do you seriously expect us to care what a Mage supplement says?

Or you can just say that the dragons carved out their own realm in the middle of the Astral. Yes, that. I'm envisioning a nice realm, where the 5 supernatural planes shine like stars and planets on the horizon as they can be seen through the Abyss.

(This will let us keep most of the stuff too - maybe even the dream stuff. Plus Astral damage is WP damage too, so, good options there.)

Sleepy now, but I'll post more on this tomorrow.

CJC wrote: There was a proposed 'Mirror of the Supernal' theory of WoD Cosmology, wherein each Realm invisible reflects a supernal realm and its invisible Arcana. The Hisil is clearly Spirit, the Underworld is Death, and Arcadia is Fate. That left Mind and Prime untended, so I took the description of the Astral Realm (a place of mind alone) and attached it to the visible magic of Space to create the Dreamtide, a realm that parallels with Pandemonium.

IMO 1. If you want to be true to Mage cosmology - then dragons should not be tied to a specific realm, but all 5, due to their central role in the Atlantis story and Mage in general. 2. But we should not want to be true to Mage cosmology - that is only a bonus, for crossovers. Making a story that stands on its own, and one that matches the dragons' themes, should take precedence.

CJC

I don't care about matching up with Mage cosmology, mainly because MY World of Darkness makes its own adjustments (Mages don't travel through the Astral Realm, they Astral Project through one of the five realms invisible to reach the Supernal. As such, all five watchtowers are actually the same structure spanning multiple frequencies of reality). So my discussions are not in an effort to please the Mage template, because its immutable truth is just as flimsy as any other template's.

But you gave us so much guff about using a realm of Dreams, so I posited an alternative using my 'fifth' realm. An alternative you've said remarkably little about, actually... ': ?

On an unrelated note:

Failing the Mandate, Hydras, and Devourers I think I want to make Hydras an unfortunate side effect of Heart Consumption to fuel the furnace, rather than the unplayable characters generated by Mandate 0. When an Oroboroi eats another Heart, her greatest shame takes form as a hallucination and torments her constantly. If she attains DoD 3 (or 2 when we change them) this shame causes her to sprout a second head, one with a mind of its own and its own agendas. This also clearly marks a Dragon as a devourer if she forges Ablutions in the company of others, a fact that both brings shame to her and her Province and likely will result in her Death.

Hydras may free themselves of these terrible heads, but only by allowing them to form and severing them with a cauterizing slice (anything else will just cause the head to grow back). This leaves a disfiguring scar and also triggers a degeneration roll.

If Hydras are moved, something new is needed to replace Mandate 0 madness. I thought about making the Heart rupture when the Oroboroi crosses the threshold (turning her into a Heartless and effectively ending her life when the fossilization takes her), but I also considered letting Cold take the Heart's place in her chest (turning her into a Deep One). Both aren't great options, so I'll keep thinking to see if I can come up with something better.

Vree

But you are trying define it in terms of the Mage-defined supernatural realms - to tie it to Mind (a mage only concept) and to match it with Pandemonium, that's clearly an attempt to explain things in terms of Mage spheres. Pandemonium is a name for Hell, so your association with Mind magic must clearly come from Mage.

Or, if it really is just a coincidence, and you were just looking for a good name for a chaotic place, then let me be the first to warn you that the name is already spoken for in that game.

But that's really easy to fix. Just change the name! There is no reason why the depths of the Dreamtide where the dreams of everything merge together should have the same name as the WoD's supernatural Hell if they are different things.

If you are still thinking about matching the "unclaimed" Mind/Matter slot (although you say you do not care about matching things up with Mage), I'd say give it up - the supernatural Pandemonium's earth mirror would likely be a demonic place, probably Inferno from the supplement of the same name. But you say you do not care about Mage, so this does not matter then anyway.

Apart from getting rid of that strong allusion, there's very little change I am trying to enforce. Only the part about approaching sleeping people to enter the dream world, because it is so eerily Changeling that I couldn't ignore it (heck Changelings even have it as part of their Morality (Clarity) rating (Clarity 10-dreamwalking, Clarity 3-harming mortals via dreams, etc.) - it is not about single ability, it is a central theme that'd we'd be seeming to duplicate (I know you did not copy or know any of this, so this is just bad luck).

But it's really only about those two things. Everything else? It's salvagable! Lucid and Hysteric Dreamers? Well maybe those guys are connecting to a deeper astral realm while in deep sleep, as some people claim we do in our sleep. (A bit less focus, but keepable.) Nightmares? They are creatures from the collective fears of mankind, or the personal demons the astral dreamer brings with him, or whatever. I am not bothered because neither of these things are so close to Changeling or anything else.

Everything else, I enjoyed.

You can glimpse other realms from the Dreamtide/astral? Capital! Deep Ones? Great!

"The original dragons entered the world from the Dreamtide. Becoming half-astral and half-material, they were able to invigorate themselves on the hopes and fears of others, much as modern gods are given physical presence from prayer. When the Oroboroi overthrew the original dragons they inherited access to the Dreamtide, but not the ability to better themselves through the thoughts of their subjects."

This is exactly true. (Except the last bit which, since the last Breath revision, we know they totally did too. :p )

"Dreamtide, the: The Astral world. Dragons may travel here by piercing the Miasma."

This is true, too.

So, as you see, It's not actually that much that I have a problem with, just the tiiiniest bits that very blatantly step on another splat's toes. :D

- the Pandemonium name, plus trying to fit it in the 5 realms concept (only Mage says there are five, as per the Arcana) - method of entering the astral space

EDIT: That said, I DO dislike connecting dragons & astral to dreams, but that's just preference. (Never have I heard about dragons being dream-walkers (human mystics or fairies sure, but dragons?) and astral space in culture is so much more than just dreams.) But your mechanics for it, if you think they belong into a dragon game, work. That much I think I must acknowledge.

EDIT 2: Solstice write-up: not as good as the current Dragon backstory. I had no complaint about that, my problem was how you go on from the backstory, when it comes to describing the astral realm in detail.

Rather than rewriting the backstory (which is unneeded, as I had no problem with that one) give me a definition for how the Solstice would look/work if you visit it with a dragon today.

Shock

But you are trying define it in terms of the Mage-defined supernatural realms - to tie it to Mind (a mage only concept) and to match it with Pandemonium, that's clearly an attempt to explain things in terms of Mage spheres. Pandemonium is a name for Hell, so your association with Mind magic must clearly come from Mage.

Or, if it really is just a coincidence, and you were just looking for a good name for a chaotic place, then let me be the first to warn you that the name is already spoken for in that game.

But that's really easy to fix. Just change the name! There is no reason why the depths of the Dreamtide where the dreams of everything merge together should have the same name as the WoD's supernatural Hell if they are different things.

If you are still thinking about matching the "unclaimed" Mind/Matter slot (although you say you do not care about matching things up with Mage), I'd say give it up - the supernatural Pandemonium's earth mirror would likely be a demonic place, probably Inferno from the supplement of the same name. But you say you do not care about Mage, so this does not matter then anyway.

Apart from getting rid of that strong allusion, there's very little change I am trying to enforce. Only the part about approaching sleeping people to enter the dream world, because it is so eerily Changeling that I couldn't ignore it (heck Changelings even have it as part of their Morality (Clarity) rating (Clarity 10-dreamwalking, Clarity 3-harming mortals via dreams, etc.) - it is not about single ability, it is a central theme that'd we'd be seeming to duplicate (I know you did not copy or know any of this, so this is just bad luck).

But it's really only about those two things. Everything else? It's salvagable! Lucid and Hysteric Dreamers? Well maybe those guys are connecting to a deeper astral realm while in deep sleep, as some people claim we do in our sleep. (A bit less focus, but keepable.) Nightmares? They are creatures from the collective fears of mankind, or the personal demons the astral dreamer brings with him, or whatever. I am not bothered because neither of these things are so close to Changeling or anything else.

Everything else, I enjoyed.

You can glimpse other realms from the Dreamtide/astral? Capital! Deep Ones? Great!

"The original dragons entered the world from the Dreamtide. Becoming half-astral and half-material, they were able to invigorate themselves on the hopes and fears of others, much as modern gods are given physical presence from prayer. When the Oroboroi overthrew the original dragons they inherited access to the Dreamtide, but not the ability to better themselves through the thoughts of their subjects."

This is exactly true. (Except the last bit which, since the last Breath revision, we know they totally did too. :p )

"Dreamtide, the: The Astral world. Dragons may travel here by piercing the Miasma."

This is true, too.

So, as you see, It's not actually that much that I have a problem with, just the tiiiniest bits that very blatantly step on another splat's toes. :D

- the Pandemonium name, plus trying to fit it in the 5 realms concept (only Mage says there are five, as per the Arcana) - method of entering the astral space

EDIT: That said, I DO dislike connecting dragons & astral to dreams, but that's just preference. (Never have I heard about dragons being dream-walkers (human mystics or fairies sure, but dragons?) and astral space in culture is so much more than just dreams.) But your mechanics for it, if you think they belong into a dragon game, work. That much I think I must acknowledge.

EDIT 2: Solstice write-up: not as good as the current Dragon backstory. I had no complaint about that, my problem was how you go on from the backstory, when it comes to describing the astral realm in detail.

Rather than rewriting the backstory (which is unneeded, as I had no problem with that one) give me a definition for how the Solstice would look/work if you visit it with a dragon today.

CJC

Well the Solstice has three main types of denizens (re-skinned from their Dreamtide representations): The Shayatin, who were once men and devolved in the wave of potential, becoming beasts and scavengers. They like to gather around the entrances to the Solstice and consume fresh travelers. The Deep Ones, who were once men and evolved into great forces of nature, build fantastic cities with the technology that drifts into the Solstice to be forgotten. Their comforts have drained away their ability to feel or react appropriately to stimuli, so they seek to recover their lost sensation, both with the flow of more technology and by stealing the emotions of others. The Deep Ones wish to feed the Solstice, setting them directly opposed to the Dragons. Finally, there are miscellaneous mutated beasts that wander the Solstice, growing ever more grotesque as realities are pruned and their potential fuses with them.

As for the landscape itself, it is very... extreme. Potential puffs everything up in greatest grandeur. Storms last for weeks and tear down mountains overnight, their lightning blasts as large as towering skyscrapers. Structures may appear spontaneously from nothing, and those that are already warp and destabilize constantly. Hallways stretch and bend. Towers contort and split. The Solstice is constantly in flux.

Why would a Dragon return? Firstly, the concentration of potential counteracts the drain a Heart places on the body. For each day spent in the Solstice, one point of fossilization is undone. Second, the Ichor makes embracing the Dragon condition easier. To build Furnace and become a more powerful monster, and to learn new Ablutions, a Dragon must travel to the Solstice and drink deep of its potential. Finally, the Deep Ones that live in the Solstice directly impair a Dragon's ability to rule the masses (and thus accumulate Breath), because they stand on opposite ends of the same issue (Dragons want to guide mortals to prevent them from making choices, and Deep Ones want to set mortals loose so that the most choices possible feed the Solstice).

A Dragon may only travel to the Solstice by finding an Equinox Fracture, which occur wherever a decision forks reality. Most are too small to navigate, though, so the Dragon must find a decision with such impact that the fracture can be navigated.

If we stick with the Dreamtide, how about leaping from a building to pierce the Miasma? Actually, it would be attaining a certain speed (terminal velocity for the mass that would enter the Dreamtide, a mass that a Dragon must occupy), but leaping from a skyscraper would be the easiest way to do so. It also makes arriving in the Dreamtide quite... unpleasant (SMASH!). And instead of Pandemonium... what about "The Maelstrom" or "Somnus' Trench"?

Vree

Hmm, okay, but I think we should make a separation between the dragon's less important servants and closer family, because "dynasty" typically refers to a ruling family. It is good to expand that to members of the dragon's closest circle, because the Heart may be inherited by anyone among these people, and not just family; but I think using the same term for servants and followers would be incorrect, and they are better treated as part of the Province.

What I'd do maybe is a division between the two, like this:

Province:

The number of people that the dragon influences, and by extension, the amount of geographical are that he claims as her own.

Province is measured with Loyalty and Size.

Size: The more Size there is, the bigger the dragon's territory and the more people there are over whom she holds sway. Provinces are not neccessarily defined geographically; they can be anything from a multinational company to an internet channel, as long as the dragon can influence people through it, though the classical borders remain those of a city district or larger area. (Of course, a Province isn't strictly one thing, either. A dragon may treat both her neighborhood AND her pen-pals as the entireity of her Province.)

The more Size there is, the easier it is to regain Breath; if one source is not avaliable, there are plenty of other chances to choose from.

Dragon slang also sometimes uses synonyms for the word "Province" based on its size:

1: Territory ? ? 4: Empire ?

Loyalty: The more Loyal your subjects, the more difficult it is to steal them or turn them against you, and the more outrageous news of you or requests they are willing to put up with.

Loyalty is added as a positive modifier when currying favors from someone who is a part of your Province, and subtracted from rolls that would attempt to turn them against you (someone else offering your employee a better salary, someone trying to bribe an assistant to leak information to them about you, news about your shady businesses or about your being a dragon come out...)

It is a difficult task usually to raise both Loyalty AND Size at the same time, which is another reason why they are treated separate. While Size is small it is simple for the Dragon to hold unpopular opinions, or to side with someone to the exlusion of others, but the more people there are the more difficult it is to please everyone; you are running a higher risk that by siding with one group, you will alienate the rest. Only Dragons with exceptional charisma can overcome this problem.

Dynasty:

A Dragon's Province is only her extended sphere of influence. Every dragon has a small inner circle of people who are her closest co-workers. The people of the Province have heard of the dragon and hold her in some regard; but they do not know what she is. People of an inner circle do.

This circle usually consists of: - the dragon's family, including mere mortal relatives (if they are in on the secret - a dragon may have a mortal family, but if they aren't aware of her condition, they do not count as a part of her Dynasty), Dragonborn, and the Bond Of Brooded (who get treated as family). - The dragon's best and most trusted men, who may be co-workers, advisors, bodyguards - but they differ from regular employees in that they are trusted with the Dragon's most guard secrets: business and political operations, fincancial or legal affairs, sometimes even knowledge about Dragonkind and the Heart as well. - other Dragons who opted to be members of the Dynasty; this usually invloves swearing at least partial allegiance to the head of the Dynasty.

(Maidens are famously not treated as part of the Dynasty, despite being among the people closest to the Dragon as well. A Maiden is treated as a concubine or servant who performs a function that requires to work close to the dragon, but that is all. That did not stop many Maidens from occassionally becoming influencers or "powers behind the throne", or to take the dragon's Heart for themselves, but they have a difficult time getting themselves accepted by dragonkind as a whole afterwards.)

While in human society, "Dynasty" strictly refers to people who share a blood blond, a Dragon's family is a lot more flexible; all the above people are potential candidates for a Heart. And so the continuity of the line of succession is a much more complicated subject.

The strenght of a dynasty is unrelated to its numbers; actually, some may argue that less is more in this case, as many possible candidates for a Heart only breeds infighting. While a measure of how cohesive a Dynasty is is an individual trait, it is found that there is a nevertheless a usual indicator of its strenght: the number of Hearts within the Dynasty. While there is only a single Dragon, inner competition and trying to curry favor with the leader is usually strong. While if 2 Dragons attempt to share a throne, it usually ends in tragedy, as the dragon's servants and Dynasty usually split, acknowledging one ruler or the other. It is not until there are at least 3 Hearts within a dynasty usually that it truly becomes deserving of the name.

If 3 or more Dragons managed to form a group, it usually means that they have very strong loyalty towards each other,as dragons are solitary by nature and have difficulty tolerating just one rival, two even moreso. Secondly, three dragons together represent terrifying influence as well as supernatural power. Nondragon Dynasty members have a much bigger chance of acquiring a Heart, which keeps everyone more relaxed and working harder for the common good.

Many dragons only call dragons' groups Dynasties once they have reached this level. Terms like Inner Circle are used before that. [I actually only used "Dynasty" thorough this for convenience...It is entirely possible that oly ones with a 3+ rating have that name.]

CJC wrote: Failing the Mandate, Hydras, and Devourers I think I want to make Hydras an unfortunate side effect of Heart Consumption to fuel the furnace, rather than the unplayable characters generated by Mandate 0. When an Oroboroi eats another Heart, her greatest shame takes form as a hallucination and torments her constantly. If she attains DoD 3 (or 2 when we change them) this shame causes her to sprout a second head, one with a mind of its own and its own agendas. This also clearly marks a Dragon as a devourer if she forges Ablutions in the company of others, a fact that both brings shame to her and her Province and likely will result in her Death.

Hydras may free themselves of these terrible heads, but only by allowing them to form and severing them with a cauterizing slice (anything else will just cause the head to grow back). This leaves a disfiguring scar and also triggers a degeneration roll.

If Hydras are moved, something new is needed to replace Mandate 0 madness. I thought about making the Heart rupture when the Oroboroi crosses the threshold (turning her into a Heartless and effectively ending her life when the fossilization takes her), but I also considered letting Cold take the Heart's place in her chest (turning her into a Deep One). Both aren't great options, so I'll keep thinking to see if I can come up with something better.

Merging Hydras and Devourers? Sure, though I liked them separate. There wasn't much material on either truthfully I guess, tho.

Note: Heart eating becomes a less important Ethics/Mandate sin if you do this, as it becomes its own punishment.

Is there a particular reason why the hydra was chosen to represent evil in the dragon story, by the way? (They don't seem so different a creature from say basilisks or wyverns?)

Vree

Cool.

If the number of heads is tied to the number of Derangements the player had, maybe eating a Heart could give you -1 Ethics/Mandate (you do not get to roll) and an automatically gained Derangement? That automatic Derangement would then become an extra head.

I kinda like the idea too that extra heads may be the result of trying to force more Hearts in the same body. Basically the Dragon has two souls in his body - one mortal and one dragon. When you try to force in another Heart, those two dragon- souls merge into a horrific chimera, an amalgam that forever marks your dragon-form. The character may have othher problems as well when using Edicts or Dreamtide connections too. Example: you can only use Edicts if you cast them as many times as the number of your heads, and while you may choose different targets for each, the ones you did not need are wasted. So, a 7-headed Hydra needs to spend 7 Breath every time he wants to use an Edict, seriously limiting his capacity - although when they do use an Edict, Hydras can be demonstrate terrifying effects (but this is more of a "bomb" that the Hydra can use 2-3 times before he is out of Breath). So what happens to a Hydra heart? Is it contaminated forever, even if a new owner receives it? This direction seems to imply that it is.

I'm attached to the idea of Devourers and Hydra being separate too, though. That line about Devourers throwing Hearts as firewood into their Furnace is cool. Plus it saves the trouble with what happens to the Heart, as above: the 2nd Heart burns up completely, so it will not have an effect on the 1st Heart itself other than making it burn brighter.

Vree

Dreamtide: I'll be busy this week (with my co-worker on holiday) so I'll have to leave this discussion for later, but I won't leave you without material to chew on.

With Breath tweaked, I tried to change the Furnace drawbacks around a bit. I reassigned the feeding rules here, but I left out the rule where the amount of food intake increases with Furnace, for a simple reason: the game is not really about gluttonous dragons, but about power-hungry dragons, so I think it should emphasize that angle. I also added a new drawback effect that I think fits D:tE's theme.

(Both names - "Overburn" and "Chaoskampf" - are placeholders.)

Speaking of names, are you POSITIVE about Orobori being the plural of Ouroboros?

DRAWBACKS OF FURNACE:

OVERBURN

Dragons have a small fire in their chest: their inner Furnace. That fire must be kept stoked, or in the absence of consummable material, it will start burning away the dragon's insides for fuel instead (the worst case of "heartburn" you can imagine).

If a dragon does not fuel her inner fire for a whole day, the next morning she wakes she immediately suffers 1 Lethal damage. This repeats if she fails to feed the fire for successive days.

Feeding the Furnace is simple: the Dragon simply has to consume some sort of flammable material. Alcohol burns well, and is the most popular choice, however, just any combustible substance is good: firewood, coal, gasoline are all valid resources. While these may be harmful for eating for human, they have no such drawback for a dragon.

The dragon must consume these materials in addition to the normal food that she eats; damage from an overheated Furnace is different from damage from deprivation of regular food and drink.

CHAOSKAMPF

The Oroboroi condition follows a natural life cycle. While the Furnace burns low, the Oroboroi flaunts herself in the role of a chosen one, a conqueror, or a hero, enjoying the power granted to her by the Heart and the taste of victory over having bested its previous owner.

However, as Furnace grows, the Orobori starts to become less and less like other mortals and more and more like the monster she thought she wrestled the heart from. The Dragon changes both bodily and mentally, and they start to evoke the same reaction from humanity that once drove them against other dragons as well. Eventually the beast that the Oroborus has become gets slain or tricked for her Heart, perishing by someone's hand the same way they have created themselves. The serpent bites its own tail, the children slay their parent only to take their place, again and again. This is the deadly eternal recurrence of the Oroborus existence.

This effect can be tracked back to several sources: the Dragon's increasing difficulty with relating to mortals (with their limited power and lifespan), the dragon's solitary, paranoid, overprotective and jealous nature slowly coming to the surface, the dragon' reptilian aura becoming more apparent. Humans also develop an eerie distaste that tells them not to submit to or let themselves be shackled by the Dragon, but to rise up against her.

You can see the penalty below for each Furnace level. This applies to every interaction with regular mortals that does NOT use Intimidation. Intimidation is always free game, and eventually the dragon's only means of interaction. All other social skills (Empathy, Persuasion, or Socialize) are affected by the penalty when interacting with normal mortals.

Furnace/penalty 1 0 2 0 3 0 4 -1 5 -1 6 -1 7 -2 8 -2 9 -3 10 -5

Sources Of Inspiration:

[this section is pretty weak. It claims there is a shortage of stories with dragons in a modern settings, which is a blatant lie. I'm not big on reading fantasy stories, but here is what I'd probably use as inspiration for a Dragon campaign.]

Mythology: There is probably no mythology in the world that does not have a dragon in there somewhere, or if it somehow doesn't, it has a monster equivalent that can be mined for ideas. Many also feature the "Chaoskampf" motif where a hero - a mortal or god - defeats a giant enemy that represents evil and chaos: Zeus defeats Typhon, Thor battles the World Serpent, Yahwe faces the Leviathan, Marduk kills Tiamat. These stories are integral to the understanding of the Oroboroi nature.

"Sintel" - this as animated short film (which you can watch on the internet) about a young girl and her dragon friend echoes well with the Oroboroi theme where mortals are constantly driven to slay dragons, even if they were previously friendly with them, only to replace them and become like them themselves.

"D-War". Okay, so it's not a very good movie. But the CGI is wonderful, and the setting is interesting: it revolves around the fight of two Imoogi (proto-dragons) for reaching full dragonhood.

(The net claims that Imoogi is Korean for a young proto-dragon that has been cursed to never attain full dragonhood,l or one that becomes a dragon after living for a 1000 years, or after it has completed a set of trials; but whether this is true, or if it is a made up word in some books and movies, I have not been able to confirm.)

The only source I found says this, but does not cite sources:

Quote: Imoogi

A close relative to the dragon, there is a native Korean mythological creature known as an Imugi. By one account, they are hornless creatures resembling dragons who have been cursed and thus were unable to become dragons. By other accounts, an Imugi is a proto-dragon which must survive one thousand years in order to become a fully fledged dragon. In either case they are said to be large, benevolent, python-like creatures that live in water or caves. Their sighting is associated with good luck.

In the 21st-century Korean film titled D-War, two Imoogi, of which one was benevolent and the other evil, were seen competing for possession of a source of power by which one of them could become a dragon. Ultimately, the evil Imoogi is destroyed by his rival moments after the latter had captured the source. Here, the two are shown to be physically different, in that the evil Imoogi is darker-colored, more slender, and distinguished by an inflexible hood similar to that of a cobra, whereas the good Imoogi is paler, stockier, and hoodless. Narration in the film implies that many Imoogi exist at a time, whereof one is designated to become a dragon.

The Alosha series by Christopher Pike features a variation of the Imoogi called a "koul". A koul is a snakelike, gigantic proto-dragon that must pass three tests of courage — the coming to aid of others, the act of swimming, and a literal 'leap' of faith — in order to become a dragon. Upon coming to the aid of others, the koul grows legs; after having swum in water, the koul is able to breathe fire; upon making the leap, the koul immediately sprouts wings. A successful koul resembles a European dragon, whereas a koul who has completed only one or two of its tests resembles a Chinese dragon or Korean dragon of the type described above.

Reptilian alien UFO conspiracy theories: Great ideas for how some mortals may react to observing Tells.

Any dinosaur book: Reptiles already DID rule the world once, and the dragons in some way allude to that fact. It should be noted that unlike what some people will let you believe, dinosaurs were not an "inferior" species (for those of you who still believe all that "evolutionary ladder" sh#t). Dinosaurs (and other aquatic and flying reptiles, as the word "dinosaur" only refers to one sub-group) were a highly successful and adaptive group of animals that dominated Earth for over 150 millions of years, and it was only thanks to a freak twist of fate that our mammalian ancestors got a chance in the first place.

"Dragons: A Fantasy made Real" is a nice mock documentary about dragons (albeit not much beyond that).

"Flight Of The Dragons", the book: it is always nice to read a book tht argues how impossible fantasy tropes like fire breath or dragon wings can be explained with real-world science. It also lend its name to a successful animated film (which has very little to do with the actual book and was adapted from another novel).

"His Majesty's Dragon" (the Temeraire series) - I have not read this personally, but it receives glowing reviews from everyone I hear talk about it. I'll quote TvTropes here. "This alternate history series sets out to answer a vital question that has intrigued historians for millennia: what would the Napoleonic Wars have been like if the countries involved fought them with dragons?"

"Tooth and Claw" by Jo Walton - I have also NOT read this one, but you don't need to either as it has a free RPG based on it. Set in a world where humans have defeated dragons and constrained them to a reserve, there are some neat ideas here about how human would look from the POV of a giant intelligent serpent.

Furnace Bandwith:

This seems to be another bit I misunderstood - so you can actually manifest 5 Ablution dots at 1 Furnace? Ergo, you can become a True Form in only 2 turns?

--- The aforementioned mythological heroes and the monsters could be a fun angle to follow to give creative names to Ablutions, Edicts and particularly Method/Philosophy granted abilities. For example, "Panoptes" (Ancient Greek for "all-seeing") the title of Argos Panoptes, the hero who killed Echidna (the mother of monsters in Greek myht) could be the name 5 sense traits? It'd seem deliciously ironic if A abilities got names after monster killing heroes and B abilities after the monsters. (Nah, I prefer the simpler names. Still, a thought.)

CJC

Vree wrote: Dreamtide: I'll be busy this week (with my co-worker on holiday) so I'll have to leave this discussion for later, but I won't leave you without material to chew on.

What a coincidence! I'll be indisposed this week as well. It will give everybody else a good opportunity to interact without me throwing up walls of text every other day.

Vree wrote: Speaking of names, are you POSITIVE about Orobori being the plural of Ouroboros?

Ourobori is, yes. Plurals that end with an 'i' are totally awesome. The term Oroboroi ended with an 'oi' because 'roi' (pronounced 'Wah'... or 'Roy' if you're speaking english) is the french term for king. But this, as all other things, is flexible. And to stymie the anticipated counterpoint, yes, I DO speak French. I'm just not great at phonetic spellings.

Vree wrote: OVERBURN If a dragon does not fuel her inner fire for a whole day, the next morning she wakes she immediately suffers 1 Lethal damage. This repeats if she fails to feed the fire for successive days.

Feeding the Furnace is simple: the Dragon simply has to consume some sort of flammable material. Alcohol burns well, and is the most popular choice, however, just any combustible substance is good: firewood, coal, gasoline are all valid resources. While these may be harmful for eating for human, they have no such drawback for a dragon.

The dragon must consume these materials in addition to the normal food that she eats; damage from an overheated Furnace is different from damage from deprivation of regular food and drink.

This is a beautiful mechanic. I'm copying it into my notes about the thread to keep track of it for later.

Quote: CHAOSKAMPF

The Oroboroi condition follows a natural life cycle. While the Furnace burns low, the Oroboroi flaunts herself in the role of a chosen one, a conqueror, or a hero, enjoying the power granted to her by the Heart and the taste of victory over having bested its previous owner.

However, as Furnace grows, the Orobori starts to become less and less like other mortals and more and more like the monster she thought she wrestled the heart from. The Dragon changes both bodily and mentally, and they start to evoke the same reaction from humanity that once drove them against other dragons as well. Eventually the beast that the Oroborus has become gets slain or tricked for her Heart, perishing by someone's hand the same way they have created themselves. The serpent bites its own tail, the children slay their parent only to take their place, again and again. This is the deadly eternal recurrence of the Oroborus existence.

This effect can be tracked back to several sources: the Dragon's increasing difficulty with relating to mortals (with their limited power and lifespan), the dragon's solitary, paranoid, overprotective and jealous nature slowly coming to the surface, the dragon' reptilian aura becoming more apparent. Humans also develop an eerie distaste that tells them not to submit to or let themselves be shackled by the Dragon, but to rise up against her.

You can see the penalty below for each Furnace level. This applies to every interaction with regular mortals that does NOT use Intimidation. Intimidation is always free game, and eventually the dragon's only means of interaction. All other social skills (Empathy, Persuasion, or Socialize) are affected by the penalty when interacting with normal mortals.

Social penalties, however, are not something that I am a fan of. You will need to convince Shock that this is a necessity.

Quote: Sources Of Inspiration:

[this section is pretty weak. It claims there is a shortage of stories with dragons in a modern settings, which is a blatant lie. I'm not big on reading fantasy stories, but here is what I'd probably use as inspiration for a Dragon campaign.]

It says it because I was unaware of any good ones. I hate the Sources and Inspiration sections of all these books, anyway. They feel like MLA notation for an essay. So I relinquish that section. Whomsoever wishes to write it up in its entirety may do so, and I will put whatever you come up with into the rewrite.

Quote: Furnace Bandwith:

This seems to be another bit I misunderstood - so you can actually manifest 5 Ablution dots at 1 Furnace? Ergo, you can become a True Form in only 2 turns?

No, it's a bandwidth. Imagine a section of pipe that can handle five gallons of water per second. If you try to pump six gallons through it per second, it will not work. The pipe will experience strain. Overstress it and it will rupture.

Furnace 1 Oroboroi can manifest a MAXIMUM of 5 Ablution points upon their body. To manifest more, they must expand their bandwidth by dumping money for a bigger pipe (or rather, by spending breath to make their body more accommodating).

So a Furnace 1 Oroboroi may manifest 1 Ablution point in a turn. If she already has five manifest, attempting to manifest a sixth will inflict a single point of lethal damage upon her before the feature takes form (as her flesh tears and her bones break, lacking sufficient heat to be reshaped safely).

Vree

CJC wrote: Quote: [quote=Vree]Speaking of names, are you POSITIVE about Orobori being the plural of Ouroboros?

Ourobori is, yes. Plurals that end with an 'i' are totally awesome. The term Oroboroi ended with an 'oi' because 'roi' (pronounced 'Wah'... or 'Roy' if you're speaking english) is the french term for king. But this, as all other things, is flexible.

My concern is that even though -oi is the plural form ONLY, the text uses it as if it was the singular in several places. "an Oroboroi must make a proclamation" "the number is equal to the Oroboroi’s dot rating" etc.

We have οὐροβόρος the Greek word, adopted to English and other languages as ouroboros (note the extra U) or sometimes oroborus or uroborus . That's the singular. Ouroboroi or urobori is the plural.

So the text should logically say, "an Oroboros must make a proclamation" "the number is equal to the Oroboros' dot rating" etc.

I'm not sure why the extra U was ommitted, but I do not have a problem with that bit. In fact, we can even use that to differentiate it from the symbol. Because logically, the writing and spelling of a common word would simplify over time, so Oὐροβόρος becoming Oroboros is quite logical.

So the Lexicon might say:

Oroboroi: Dragons. Oroboros: A dragon, a member of the Oroboroi. Ouroboros: The mythical self-consuming serpent symbol. (plural: Ouroboroi, but that doesn't matter.)

Oroboros is a great word, by the way. Its only vowel is the O, and it is half a palindrome: "oroboro" is the same both forward and reversed (possibly representing recurrence) but it is cut short with a snakeish "sss" sound. You could not possibly find a word that better expresses the symbol.

An Oroboros octagon, the most well-known basic pictogram for modern Oroboroi who do not speak any old Draconic languages. Such grafittis are frequent in any city where dragons have taken up residence, and serve both as a friendly welcome and a warning.

CJC

Well, actually I used it as both the singular and plural, like Moose. I do this frequently in fantasy writing (in my novella "Empty Moon", the blood-sucking monsters are referred to as 'Pokhoul' regardless of whether there is one or many. I do the same with the term 'kraken' in all three of my books.)

There is great beauty in palendromic words, especially those that refer to a creature that is in the process of consuming itself. So I'm going to do this. Because it's awesome.

like this as well. Part of me wants to do an inward spiral as well, or some other symbol with rotational symmetry.

DukeGod

I made a terribad attempt at something like this. Just to give a concept I suppose I also liked Oroboros for the same reasons. O is the only vowel, and the palyndrome.

Vree

That looks great. If this was real life actually, then different people would focus on different details, based on what they think is important. Note that my drawing lacks detail, but all the letters turn inward, and the S is positioned at the bottom (on some pictures, the S may be emphasized even more). Duke's grafitti emphasizes the sides and the symmetry of the S-B, R-R sides. In fact there may be symbology in that: O symbolizes an egg or the world, while the S, B and R are the embryo or spirit inside it. Even the plural may be significant: I is straight and S is curved. One symbolizes the order while the other individuality. Similarly, while Oroboroi is the generally accepted plural, someone who wants to refer to many dragons as a chaotic bunch rather than an orderly group may use Oroboroses. For example, a Hydra will definitely use the latter, for the double "sss" if nothing else. The inside of the octagon may be also octagonal to represent recursiveness; or it may be a circle on the inside. It may be empty, or it could contain a spiral a yin-yang symbol, the cosmic egg, a crown or similar.

Yeah I don't want to overemphasize this all, it was just a fun idea. But that's how it might happen.

See, this is a BIG problem. Remember how I complained only because you could manifest Ablutions only half as quick at Furnace 1? Well it seems it is even worse, because a Furnace 1 player can't even reach True Form unless they take 5 Lethal damage (whaaaat?) or spend 2 Breath.

That definitely seems to me like it could use a good revision.

CJC wrote:

Social penalties, however, are not something that I am a fan of. You will need to convince Shock that this is a necessity.

Yeah, I admit that wasn't quite what I was trying to go for either. Maybe a boost to Mortal Reaction if Ablutions are displayed, instead?

It is possible that no adjustment is needed, because more and more Ablutions will autoatically bring with them more severe response levels. But I want to have the fluff mentioned somewhere, because it helps me rationalize away a few things:

One idea is that the Oroboroi are immortal but still have a sort of predestined death - eventually they will become like monsters and will be killed. This is all the more tragic becuase they start out as heroes. The duality of being both the slayer and the slain is one of the best parts in Dragon. It also seems to fit into the Ouroboros symbology that the dragons are driven to constantly destroy and recreate themselves.

But for me it also helps with the fact that the Orobori live forever, which does not first seem to have any purpose. The idea is that albeit Oroboroi are immortal, they have a sort of predecided death anyway. So the fact that they are technically gains a tragic quality. The Oroboroi could live forever....But they never do.

The second thing is that mundane mortals are somehow driven to antagonize the Oroboroi with growing age. See, we have a pretty good explanation why people close to the Oroboroi may want to kill them, because they know about the Heart. But we do not have a good explanation for why normal mortals who aren't that close would be brought into this world and come to the 5 Methods. So maybe they are somehow driven to it - maybe the Heart calls out mystically even if it already has an owner to rise up, kill him and claim the Heart for themselves. Or maybe that is just how humans are, power hungry and fearful.

But mostly I just like the "chaoskampf" motif, and I think we should have it.

If Wall Climber stays as it is, how about you simply give it the Sticky Grasp feature too?

Wall Climber: Like before, except it also penalizes escape attempts from the dragon's grapple, as per the Sticky Grasp feature.

Sticky Grasp: [clarified version]

This feature does not add to the dice pool for grappling. Instead, the dots in an Ablution that has this are subtracted from attempts to escape a dragon's Grapple. (It does not add to rolls for establishing a grapple, nor does it increase overpower rolls.)

Explanation: Normally, a person would use Strenght + Brawl to escape from a grapple, penalized by the opponent's Strenght. For players with this feature, the roll becomes (opponent's Strenght + Brawl) - (player's Strenght + Ablution dots).

Impervious Hide:

Again, extra dots give little advantage here. Maybe a +1/0 bonus on the first level, then +1/1 for every level afterwards? (Bulletproof is a huge boost in itself.

Advantages of Furnace:

INCINERATION

A Dragon's burning Furnace is a supernatural feature. This force can be turned into a ranged weapon using the Inferno Ablution (although the heat projected this way is significantly decreased), but every dragon possesses the core of this power. The Furnace's fire is an engine hotter than anything a mortal could forge; in incinerates matter far beyond its material components and transforms it into supernatural energy, Breath.

A Dragon is basically a walking Mount Doom: no object, no matter of what occult or divine in origin, no matter how supernaturally resilient, can survive being exposed to an overheated Furnace.

A Dragon can at any time use this power to destroy something. The dragon spends a point of Breath and simultaneously suffers a point of Lethal damage to heat the Furnace to a supernormal degree. Then the dragon either swallows the object, or holds it close to her mouth and breathes on it. The object is completely erased, disintegrated beyond atoms and supernatural components. The true heat of the Furnace burns up any enchantment, destroys any metaphysical body, and ignores any armor or durability.

The object destroyed this way can not be larger than Size 1. Anything bigger is either too large to be swallowed in one go or every part can not be held close enough to the mouth at the same time for this to work. The Dragon can still repeat the method for each dot of Size until she destroys something completely. (So, you can spend 2 Breath and 2 Lethal damage to completely destroy a Size 2 object.)

True dragons (if the stories can be believed) could swallow spirits and demi-gods whole, dissolving them in their Furnace. It is said that at the end of times, the Great Ancestral Dragon will swallow the whole world to return it to its purest essences or to non-existence.

Also, clarifications (are they in the book? Should they maybe added or it doesn't matter?):

The Furnace should be confused with the Heart. The Heart is an organ that can exist indepently from the Dragon, but the Furnace is inseparable from the Dragon's body. Yet there is a supernatural connection; if the Heart is destroyed, within hours the Furnace will also grow cold. The Furnace is also quieted if the Dragon is killed, yet the Heart can still light it up again.

The Furnace is also separate from the dragon's regular organs. A dragon can still be poisoned, and digests food with their human stomach. So what is the Furnace? Maybe it is a second stomach. Maybe it is supernatural, or just a concept, a name for something inherent to dragon nature. [Or is it? You tell me!]

Ablutions:

I'm really loving the Ablutions, really truly. They are well thought out and try to cover all bases (every possible stat/bonus) which is very pleasing to my order-loving mind.

I'm making a summary here for myself:

HEARTS

Inferno Impervious Hide Wings W: Claws [+Climbing?] W: Horns Fire Skin [+Fireproof?] Serpentine (slithering, size decrease) Reptilian Fear Fork-Tongued Colossal Beast Soothing Incense Burrowing Body Keen-Eyed [excluded?] Wall Climber [excluded?]

+ [Bite] [Tail] [Scent]

BLADES Tempest Roar Draconic Strenght W: Body Spines W: Wrist Blade Beat them Into The Ground [disliked; should be a bonus] Pounce

SPADES Master Of Secrets Hoard Of Knowledge Trail Of Scales W: Raptor Scythe Sympathetic Scale [this one's a bit weird] Eye Of Value

DIAMONDS

Impassioned Effort Skill Of The Gods Natural Inspiration [bit limited] W: Cestus SAP Bonding Oath Bravo's Crest

CLUBS

Noxious Breath Vile Blood Acidic Saliva Weaponry: Palm Pike Chameleon Hide Venoms

> too many poison abilities, one of the 4 like Vile Blood could definitely go

GOBLETS

Fligth Of The King Regal Stature Envoy's Passage W: Razor Fins Crown Of The Ages > note that this is similar to some Edicts Mesmerizing Eyes

Shock a brain dump of what I have so far, forgive me if it isn't complete.

Starting on Ash:

The Activists, The Deviants, the Revolutionaries.

Much can be said about the Philosophers of Ash but the same goal: A breakdown of a system. Of what system they are after depends on which one you ask. For one, an criminal empire that spans over several states is one. For another, it's attacking widespread discrimination that target the people of his Provence. Dragons of Ash tend to come to this philosophy after suffering major trauma to their lives and Provence and their numbers tend to ebb and flow with time. In a time of great oppression, they tend to flourish while oddly seem to dwindle in times of chaos.

While many Philosophers argue about the intricate of the Philosophy, they tend to agree on three central tenants.

Tenants of Ash:

1. Fire consumes the wicked: This is something that all Dragons of Ash have in common. It's why they enter the Philosophy to begin with. The Tenant gives the Dragon something to focus on. The origin point of why they came into the Philosophy and their continuing resolve to see it through.

2. The unfocused cloud kills everything: As much as the Dragons of Ash are determined to follow their goals, they must try to avoid collateral damage. Harming the innocent tends to affect more harm than good and needlessly interferes with the Providences of other Dragons, thus causing more trouble to fall on their heads. This tenant is here to remind the Dragons of Ash that some actions are simply too extreme to follow through. For some, it's the rope that keeps them from diving into the abyss.

3. Nothing lasts forever: Much like the saying "Memento mori", This Philosophers of Ash realize that nothing can last forever. Every empire is an ozymandias in waiting. Every king eventually must leave his throne. Even vendettas have to end eventually. In a way, this tenant reminds the Dragons of Ash that they will eventually have to leave the Philosophy when their goals in it end to rebuilt.

It should be noted that most elders Philosophers of Ash make a point of telling their novices that the Philosophy is a cold one. Like the Ash it embodies, they expect the novices to enter hot and and full of fire only to grow colder as time goes on until they finally reach their goal. It is at the point of reaching their goal that Philosophers are expect to leave to Ash in favor of other Philosophies. An eruption can not last forever and cold ash eventually leads to new growth. The Dragon bites it's tail and the cycle begins again.

NPC concept: The activist.

Emmanuel Vega is a son of second generation immigrates that have found themselves in the wrong area at the wrong time. Lifelong profiling from ICE, Local law enforcement, and various other groups have left an feeling of oppression which left a festering hatred of the police in his heart. Acquiring his heart by the way of observing a local ranchero and finding his heart, he quickly started to find himself within activist circles. Once established, he has made it his life goal to bring down systematic discrimination that has caused his community so much pain. Lately, He has also in conflicts with one of the cartels that has infested the area and more than a few attempts on his life have been taken but he still continues to press on fight both.

Q: What brought you to Ash?

A: Have you ever been in my shoes? In this fight, I need something to grasp. They take poisonous ideas and throw them at us to keep us low. I can not fight an idea with weaponry or even claws. I need to fight these ideas by breaking them down, illustrating how useless they are and defeating them once they have exhausted all their excuses.

NPC concept: The hacker.

Little is known about the offline life of Sp3rp3nt but his(her?) online work as been enough to give the Secret Service, The FBI, and US CERT all headaches. Part of Team Plastard, he has hacked several banks and has several bot-nets at his disposal running activities such as DDoS extortion, to spreading malware, to Carding. Finding out about Dragons after hacking a camera and seeing a True Form, he quickly obtained the rest of the picture and knowledge of the Heart. shortly after, A Dragon had a tragic accident when his break of his electronic car stopped working and all the lights in the nearby intersection turned to green. The body was never found.

Following which, Sp3rp3nt has massively expanded his database on Dragons and has located a few of them nearby. He has yet to introduce himself but has gained enough insight into their mindset to come into the Philosophy of Ash.

On the activist front, he (when he isn't gathering credit card information or the like) has set up proxies and Tor relays nodes for people in nations that have firewalls. He considers it a challenge to keep them up and running really.

Question: >Why did you choose the Philosophy of Ash?

Answer: > Really? of all the questions? Ok fine. I'll answer.

We live in an era of constant surveillance. Don't believe me? Look at ECHELON, Carnivore, PRISM, and all the other crap that we don't know about. In a way, I hope to break things, to bring transparency, force these things into the light.

Q> Depends, How can you say that you are wanting to bring transparency when you are hiding behind a mask?

A> Simple really. Large scale organizations are masks in and of themselves. Look at Nigeria and Shell. The powerful, by using these masks, have the ability to fund oppression. Should the mask crumble, they can simply grab and use other one. In essence, I am allowing individual people to do the same, leveling the playing field.

Vree

^see, I have the same problem with that as before - it could work as an X-splat where it deals with some personal aspect or motivation that brings the character to the fold, but for a philosophy or a group, "breakdown of a system" is much too vague. "What do you want to bring down? I want to bring down society. How about you? I want to destroy poverty. Sweet, let's work together!" How does that work?

Fire consumes the wicked - if this is something all Ash have in common perhaps you should explain it, because I have no idea what it means :p

Still, it is leagues clearer than the previous version, and I can see a direction in it, although I would make it clearer what ties these characters together, for example the tenets would look something like this:

1. society is rotten 2. small fixes are not enough; you must completely clean away everything and then restrat from scratch. An Ash is like surgeon who removes a cancerous organ so that the body may live. 3. the true order will srping up again - things have a natural good order that will bloom once the corruption is removed

What all Ash agree on is that it the current social order as it is is unsustainable - is riddled with corruption and is beyond saving. Before anything good can grow, this corrupt order must be removed first. How exactly something new will rise afterwards is a secondary concern - most Ash believe (naively, perhaps) that a new order will rise all by itself after the obstacles to it are removed. Most Ash view themselves as heralds of a revolution waiting to happen, a natural order or progression of things that nature intends that the current corrupt system is trying to stop in vain. (Many Ash get disappointed when the revolutions they expect fail to happen, because of their own false image of other people - although it has to be said that a handful of them do manage to get a reaction or even start social movements through their persistent actions.) Some Ash are actual anarchists though who believe that no order at all is the best order. Only a handful have plans for how they are going to maintain a new order after they remove a tyrant, and even those are usually distracted by the difficulty of the Ash's task of actually getting there. Those Ash who do not want to be bothered by the question simply leave it to other people. In a Den, an Ash willremove the obstacle, but leaves to her companions what they are going to do after that; the Ash's task is to destroy, as it is someone else's to build.

Well I can't say I perfectly like doing it this way, but it's a direction. That's something.

I'd like to point out that this view of Ash that you present actually has a name in history already: RADICALISM. (That's not such a bad thing, actually, if we plan to have Philosophies resemble/allude to RL political ideologies & movements.) Political radicals typically urge big, fundamental reforms. They could also be said to be related to anarchism - the ideology that any imposed social order and all forms of authority are inherently bad. I would stay away from the later one, though, because dragons are themselves inherently authoritians; even if there is a group of liberals/equalitarians (like Vampire's Carthians), there should be a single group like that at most.

CJC

Okay, so Chaoskampf is the depiction of a notable figure doing away with a demon of Chaos, yes? Wouldn't it work better as an internal conflict, then? Especially because the Oroboros is filling both roles in this case. Which leads me back to the Five Evils, because they technically have that conflict constantly. I think we need to explore the possibilities of Chaoskampf as a psychological conflict.

We should go through the Ablutions one at a time and polish them... but not tonight.

One more thing. I was thinking about animals that consume a Heart of the Oroboroi, and I think they should become a Dahaka (technically an Azi Dahaka, but we truncate all the time). Wicked, clever, sinful monsters... they'd make good antagonists for Oroboroi ignorance (I thought I'd make a dragon pet, and it turned into this... this thing that burned down my Lair, turned my constituents against me, and sicked the Bloody Knights on my Den!)

Vree

It doesn't look like it achieved it, does it? You can go up to 3 Furnace on 0 xp too. But it shouldn't feel obligatory to do so. Do starting characters really feel that powerful? Then why not reduce the number of the starting Ablutions or somesuch?

It is very easy to increase the power stat with merit dots initially during character creation (to exhange a new dots x2 stat for a new dots x8 stat is a total steal!) But luckily in most games, the power stat actually influences little - a few splat central rolls, and the power point maximum. So there is some motivation despite the huge exp difference to use those dots on merits instead.

Anyway, long and short of it, if you think starting characters need to be weaker, spread that out among several stats (Ablutions, bonuses, Furnace), be careful not to over emphasize just one.

There seems to be a misuse of the word "bandwith" too - it means the speed of information transfer (how much of it can pass through at the same time), not the total amount of information a system can hold. If Furnace Bandwith meant that, the speed of manifesting Ablutions, that'd make sense.

What I'd personally prefer? Just a simple rule that you can manifest Furnace/2 or Furnace/2 +1 Ablutions in one turn, for example.

Not really what I was going for...

You know there is this feeling of sadness when characters slay a dragon, despite the fact that it needs to be done (Tvtropes calls the trope the "End Of An Age") - like at the end of the 1981 movie Dragonslayer where a wizard and a dragon mutually destroy each other, but the world becomes poorer as a result (as often they are the last of few), because the era of magic, wizards and dragons is ending. Goes well with your 'extinction' theme. I thought that that immortality could be put to some good use by invoking this.

It does not really need to be a numerical effect at all...Just something to explain why dragons are dying out despite being immortal, and why normal mortals become dragons.

Sure there is a psychological conflict too, because then the dragon killer goes on to become a dragon too, which helps the "ouroboros" motif.

If it's not that good, we can just drop it.

Saintly Devils definitely do not need to make a comeback except maybe as Hydrae IMO.

Sure, although I don't think an animal dragon would become clever...It would only be a mindless monster that every dragon destroys on sight. Maybe a chimera. (Goat/lion/snake monster, made from parts of 3 animals.) A dog eats a Heart, it becomes a part serpent, part dog beast, essentially a Hydra but rather than multiple dragon selves/heads it has a serpentine and a dog bit. And they are emphatically not proper monsters; the Heart can only be inherited proper by a human. They are abominations.

To keep track of what should be done I'm making a reminder a list here. I left out all the "Optional" stuff that's nice but not vital (will talk about those in a follow up post).

Introduction:

The only thing to be maybe improved here is the Sources of Inspiration. (not too important, but not much work to add either)

Chapter One:

(depending on the changes decided elsewhere; cosmology, philosophies etc.)

Chapter Two:

Now we get to the meat. :D

Character creation: Furnace/Breath changes (if we agree to replace feeding) go here.

The experience charts should be moved here from somewhere the bottom of Chapter 4.

Methods: The only real change I'm vouching for here is to replace the Challengers' Wits bonus with Composure.

Philosophies: depending on discussion

(Philosophy Of Greenhorns: Gone. Being a 'Greenhorn' is not a philosophy, it is a status. You can have your heart removed and still be called a Greenhorn.)

Ablutions: Looks great overall, very small balancing here and there only.

It is also my educated opinion that some groups like the Tricksters would benefit from a few more non combat oriented skills, while the Inheritors get a biit close to being Edicts.

Edicts: Woo boy. Overall I like the Edicts as a concept, although in my book they would be defined that these are powers the Old Dragons used to control the natural world (accounting for many of the mythical asian dragon powers, power over elements, weather, ethereal realms etc.) which the later dragons stole and used for their own benefit. I also liked the rare cases when Edicts focus on "buffing" others and not the dragon; I can see Edicts as also focusing on matters of Province, and so the dragon's subjects/followers would be blessed by them. (Eg. an Artielly law that slows down a bunch of projectiles - what benefit for a dragon leading an army in times of conflict!) But all that isn't that important.

My main issue is that many Laws are simply too powerful, ridiculous for a 1-dot power. And because Ablutions are relatively highly costed, asking for a lot of exp for each level, while Laws have ways to increase Effectiveness Rating for free (but many are quite workable without any).

Second, many of them are uninspired. Look at "Water": it's like a standard fantasy heartbreaker spell list: Water, Acid, Freeze. What about all the wonderful water-serpent mythology? What a waste (At least "Storm Call" looks fine, too bad it is, again, strong for a 1st level power.)

And, please don't hate me for this, but the accompanying quotes are pretty bad too...Or should I say, casual and funny, and I'm not sure if it is appropriate to be casual and funny. Like: 'Familiar' Law: “Hey, you. Yeah, squirrel there. Go up to the window and see what you can find out about the office up there.” ...What the #&@ that am I reading? Am I playing a cartoon dragon, or a horror dragon? :p

Also, the text claims that for the true power of an Edict to be unlocked you need to collect all 2 or 3 of its Laws. This would be great, I absolutely support it, it'd keep the power level of individual Laws in check, and justify the increasing exp cost, fantastic - if only it was true. The truth is, most Laws have no need for the other 2 in their Edict whatsoever, and do not get any real combos with them even if you do buy them.

Now don't get me wrong, I love the concept of the Edicts, even most of the Edicts/Laws if you go just by title look great! But either they need their power decreased individually and have the 3-Laws-rely-on-each-other proclamation true, or they should cost more over Ablutions.

Chapter Three:

Manifesting Ablutions (Reforging): Gets a pass for now, but I'd like to see some description for what the true form "is". Do you transform, does your divinity shine through, or what it is about and what is the reason for the bonuses.

Meals: Kind of cool, I hope we can keep these even if Breath changes with a Furnace side effect. (Words like "proteins" and "calories" should be minimalized thom, they sound silly.)

Ethics: I very much look forward to a new Mandate & accompanying dragon-society traditions for this.

A Dragon's Death/Red Pearl: Not excellent but OK by me.

Eternity & A Day:

Overcomplicated & unneeded IMO. Are dragons immortal or not? This bit throws around WP and Furnace dots like they are nothing, for stuff that no player will ever do anyway. And the idea that you can trade a dot of WP (and some aging) for a dot of Furnace? When you can buy back WP dots at a lower price (normal WoD rules)? wat

Bombastic combat features:

I'll get to these in my next post. I like them, but I also think that improvements can be made here.

Chapter 4:

Good, but needs an expanded section on how Provinces work, and justification for why dragons are dying out etc. needs to make it into the prev-chapter rules.

Antagonists are OK but Hydra need to be more than mindless brutes and need to have their Ablutions (or other reason for abilities & heads) worked out.

Appendix 1: Dreamtide. Two ways to go really: 1. #&@ Changeling! If you like how this works now, I have no reason to mess with it for you. 2. Still, I'll try to make some discussion on related topics, see if there's something we all like.

And the enemies in this section are the most developed in the whole book.

Appendix 2-3: I have no issues here.

(OPTIONAL: Method attribute bonuses idea

Slayer: any Physical stat (Strenght, Dexterity or Stamina) Finder: any Mental stat (intelligence, Wits or Resolve) Inheritor: any Social stat (Presence, Manipulation or Composure) Challenger: any Resistance stat (Stamina, Resolve or Composure) Trickster: any Finesse stat (Dexterity, Wits or Manipulation) none: any Power stat (Strenght, Intelligence or Presence): these are included as Ablutions (Draconic Strenght, Hoard Of Knowledge and Regal Stature) and thus avaliable to every Dragon.)

Shock

Vree wrote:

Eternity & A Day:

Overcomplicated & unneeded IMO. Are dragons immortal or not? This bit throws around WP and Furnace dots like they are nothing, for stuff that no player will ever do anyway. And the idea that you can trade a dot of WP (and some aging) for a dot of Furnace? When you can buy back WP dots at a lower price (normal WoD rules)? wat

In all honesty, I am pretty much in favor of only having dragons gain Immorality at Furnace 9-10. Below that, each Furnace dot simply allows them to have an extra +.50/100 years tacked starting the clock after the dragon turns 100 (The real question being do we want these guys to be able to outlive Ice ages or the just the Middle Ages?)

So a Dragon with Furnace 1 will have a given lifespan of 200 years. A Dragon with Furnace 2 will live to be around 300. So on and so forth.

It should be noted that plenty of Dragons don't live that long but surprisingly a lot of them simply choose not to live that long or even take up Immorality. At that point, they have likely outlive their friends, families (multiple families) and even their Providences. The world as a whole as pass them by with them growing more distant to it with each passing year. Fading twilight dancing on ashes.

Vree wrote:

Antagonists are OK but Hydra need to be more than mindless brutes and need to have their Ablutions (or other reason for abilities & heads) worked out.

I'm actually tempted to rewrite the Deep ones to be more threatening. As of this moment, their ability to horrify is more of annoyance to Dragons rather than pose an actual threat.

So instead of offering Organs, The Deep Ones want subjects. They want people. Most Dragons don't know why and since the Deep Ones usually visit the ones that are backed into holes, they aren't inclined to ask. Though rumors persist that the Deep Ones have their own Providences and of dark rituals that bring forth structures that look like sea coral and abominations.

ST reasoning: The Deep Ones are simply waiting to take over. A large percent of them know that Dragons are on their way out and nature abhors a vacuum. However, some of which are not completely conformable with biding their time. So they meddle. They infiltrate Dynasties and Provinces, They set Dragons against each other, and they destroy every Heart they can get their hands on.

Vree

Shock wrote:

In all honesty, I am pretty much in favor of only having dragons gain Immorality at Furnace 9-10. Below that, each Furnace dot simply allows them to have an extra +.50/100 years tacked starting the clock after the dragon turns 100 (The real question being do we want these guys to be able to outlive Ice ages or the just the Middle Ages?)

So a Dragon with Furnace 1 will have a given lifespan of 200 years. A Dragon with Furnace 2 will live to be around 200. So on and so forth.

It should be noted that plenty of Dragons don't live that long but surprisingly a lot of them simply choose not to live that long or even take up Immorality. At that point, they have likely outlive their friends, families (multiple families) and even their Providences. The world as a whole as pass them by with them growing more distant to it with each passing year. Fading twilight dancing on ashes.

Well this is really what-themes-you-want territory. If dragons are naturally mortal, that's good for the Finders because it means that there can be more unclaimed Hearts conceivably lying around. There is also charm in a dragon having to raise their Furnace to escape death. But there are other considerations.

In a way the question is really how the Heart works. If a dragon dies 'naturally', does the Heart just let it? This no return from "natural" death rule (as if there was something special about dying of old age) is common in games but silly and you can do better. What was the Heart originally for - what function it had for the old dragons, and how did the new ones pervert it for their own benefit so that the heart does what it does now?

I've thrown random "Optional" lists around one, have another.

Furnace/approximate lifespan increase 10+ True Dragon (immortal) 10 +8000 years (earliest civilization (Neolithic)) 9 +4000 years (Sumer civilization) 8 +2000 years 7 +1000 years 6 +500 years 5 +250 years 4 +125 years 3 +60 years 2 +30 years 1 +15 years

You should probably also work out how exactly Furnace grows. A Genius has to create a Thesis; a Vampire has to wait for a set number of years. How does it look for a dragon? I liked the idea that Furnace simply grows with age. (See the above llist? Just take it in reverse - the number of years on the right may be how many years must pass for Furnace to grow naturally, for example.) But obviously it's one or the other.

I'm not gonna mess with this, you an' CJC just decide what you want out of it.

Shock wrote:

I'm actually tempted to rewrite the Deep ones to be more threatening. As of this moment, their ability to horrify is more of annoyance to Dragons rather than pose an actual threat.

So instead of offering Organs, The Deep Ones want subjects. They want people. Most Dragons don't know why and since the Deep Ones usually visit the ones that are backed into holes, they aren't inclined to ask. Though rumors persist that the Deep Ones have their own Providences and of dark rituals that bring forth structures that look like sea coral and abominations.

ST reasoning: The Deep Ones are simply waiting to take over. A large percent of them know that Dragons are on their way out and nature abhors a vacuum. However, some of which are not completely conformable with biding their time. So they meddle. They infiltrate Dynasties and Provinces, They set Dragons against each other, and they destroy every Heart they can get their hands on.

This I actually disagree with - I like the Deep Ones as they are now. They are plenty threatening, in an alien, behind the scenes kind of way.

There can be plenty of foes that do what you say, but the Deep One is sort of an end boss. If they walked among mortals, you'd kill that aspect. A Deep One is something similar to an Old Dragon and probably seen only slightly more frequently as one of THOSE guys.

IMO, although this is guesswork, but this is my view on them:

Deep Ones are something similar to a True Dragon. Maybe they are relatives; maybe they are anticedents, sides of a coin. Maybe the dragons descended from the Astral Realms, and the Deep Ones climbed up from the Lower Depths. Maybe they were rivals in the Dreamtide.

The Deep Ones' collection of organs mirrors the Dragons' obsession with Hearts, further confirming their similar goals and/or origin. However:

The Deep Ones are more ancient, but as the result they are also more primitive. They are more powerful in some ways but also in a way more imprisoned by the depths of their own realm than dragons were. I think the dragons were both younger and more civilized.

Obviously Deep Ones would love to take over! But 1. they don't know how - they are putting together a method through stolen organs but it is both cruder and less developed that the dragons' method for entering this world was, 2. they aren't actually suited for existing in this realm. Not that it stops them from trying - like the true dragons, they are experimenting. But whereas a true dragon could do meaningful things here, a Deep One would just cause destruction through the very nature of what they are and how that distorts reality. While a Dragon radiates magic and brings those things into this world, a Deep One either radiates nightmares and horros, or the opposite, they suck things out of this world, dragging the whole world down to the Lower Depths just by entering.

Something like that.

CJC

Adjustment to Bandwidth:

First, the rate Furnace------Bandwidth 1------1 2------1 3------2 4------2 5------3 6------3 7------4 8------5 9------7 10-----10

This version of Bandwidth determines how much reforging an Oroboros can achieve in a turn. If the dragon wishes to exceed their bandwidth (and thus manifest more Ablutions this turn), she may do so by damaging her body.

Exceed by 1 -> Suffer a bashing wound Exceed by 2 -> Suffer a lethal wound Exceed by 5 -> Suffer an aggravated wound

This is paired with the 1-2-5 Breath ratio for damage recovery, so an Oroboros may spend that amount of breath instead to manifest more quickly.

We'll discard the maximum Ablution capacity... at least for now.

Not ready to post on anything else at the moment, but my next discussion will be a pass-through of the Ablutions (Full restatements of how they will appear in the rewrite). Sneak preview: Vile Blood and Acidic Saliva are going to become Vile Humors (the bodily fluid, not the emotion), a corrosive ability that subsumes the features of the 'Solute' Law.

Vree

Posting my observations on "Bombastic Combat Features" too as promised.

Piercing Strike:

This says it is the same as Armor Piercing, but it also ignores the Bulletproof quality. Except the only Ablution that uses this is Weaponry: Claws, a melee ability. So aren't we back to the regular Armor Piercing that we started with, then?

Deadly Wound:

Although it os obvious, it may be worth mentioning that successes are only added if a hit (at least one success) is actually made.

Question: I'm confused about how some Ablutions, say Inferno, are supposed to work then. I was under the impression that you are using the Errata rules, because Inferno and others use one roll and then say that "damage is equal to the dot rating of this Ablution". Does that mean that the Ablution dots are also added to the roll? Or does 1+ success always do the same damage and extra successes are lost? Or does it work exactly the same as Deadly Wound (=damage is successes rolled + Ablution dots)?

Reliable: Cool mechanic.

Sweeping Hit: A bit difficult to justify it for myself while the lower Armor guy makes the rest vulnerable too, and the best dodger protects everyone by getting out of the way (one'd think the armor would stop the hit from proceeding to hit others, and the dodging guy would let the swipe continue cleanly), and it feels unfair that Defenses are not rolled separately...(But I can live with it.)

Defensive Flourish: OK

Sticky Grasp: see above; I think it could be worth clarifying if it only adds to establishing the grapple. In my version posted earlier I interpreted it as only adding a bonus against attempts to escape from the player's grapple (as 'Sticky Grasp', ie. some sort og glue, hook. etc. on the player's side seems to imply)

Restorative Action: This is basically healing (Medicine works much the same way). Bit weird that it's connected to a combat ability and being able to fully heal from any wound by punching people seems REALLY powerful. This COULD perhaps get some getting looked at, esp. if you are changing the healing through Breath rules to make healing Aggravated cost 5. Healing Wounds, on the WoD rulebook p. 61 could serve as inspiration/comparison here, maybe.

I don't much get it either why getting a kick out of punching people heals you instead of maybe giving WP or bonuses but whatevs.

Trauma: this is very interesting.

OVERALL:

I really like the concept of these extra mechanics; I hope there'll be more. Though, I also kinda wish they were tied to more abilities (2 Ablutions/Edicts each where possible), but that's not so vital.

OPTIONAL: Some scribbles I made for the "chaoskampf" stuff before, basically making the Mortal Response the dragon's major mortal reaction mechanic. (posted here or the sake of completeness)

Degree Of Divinity attained + highest Ablution level displayed (minor +1, moderate +2, major +3) If a Dragon has displayed their True Form, also add their penalty from Furnace. Multiple mortal witnesses: +1 for each person. Witness credibility: -2 to +2 (-2 is a drunken homeless; 0 is a normal person; +2 is a famous VIP with a lot of influence)

Mortal response: 5+ - MINOR 10+ - MODERATE 15+ - MAJOR

5+ A small group of friends or a reporter attempts to investigate, or some visits from the police.

10+ Urban legends and small scale panic (one neighborhood).

15+ Major investigation.

25+ Send in the army

Also: at 20+ the Heart may cause a single individual (one person in 100) to be designated by the Heart to be your nemesis. He is now able to sense the location of the Heart always, and the Heartbeat calls out to him constantly (though he may not know how to find it or bypass defenses even if he is near).

CJC

Satchel wrote: Have the "current" PDF sitting on my computer and plan to go over it in detail sometime in the next two weeks, if that feedback is welcome.

All feedback is greatly appreciated. We'll be glad to hear your opinions on the template.

Vree wrote: Posting my observations on "Bombastic Combat Features" too as promised.

Piercing Strike:

This says it is the same as Armor Piercing, but it also ignores the Bulletproof quality. Except the only Ablution that uses this is Weaponry: Claws, a melee ability. So aren't we back to the regular Armor Piercing that we started with, then? Huh... I guess I got confused about when Bulletproof applies. Okay, I'll remove Piercing Strike and just declare it Armor Piercing.

Vree wrote: Deadly Wound:

Although it os obvious, it may be worth mentioning that successes are only added if a hit (at least one success) is actually made.

Question: I'm confused about how some Ablutions, say Inferno, are supposed to work then. I was under the impression that you are using the Errata rules, because Inferno and others use one roll and then say that "damage is equal to the dot rating of this Ablution". Does that mean that the Ablution dots are also added to the roll? Or does 1+ success always do the same damage and extra successes are lost? Or does it work exactly the same as Deadly Wound (=damage is successes rolled + Ablution dots)? They function as a weapon. So, if you're using the Core book, then an Ablution with flexible damage (we'll use Inferno) adds its damage rating to the pool rolled and determines the type inflicted. The damage is equal to the successes of that roll.

If you're using the Deadly Firearms Hack or GMC, then you roll the regular pool and--if you score at least one success--then the Ablution's damage rating is added as bonus successes.

I will have to clarify that Deadly Wound only triggers before bonus successes go into play. The original roll needs to have three successes for Deadly Wound to activate. This makes it occur more frequently with the standard Core damage, and less frequently with GMC damage.

So by Core, if you had Inferno 3 manifest and you let loose a blast with Stamina 2 + Firearms 1, you'd roll 6 dice. We'll say that yields 2 successes, so the target suffers 2 agg damage. With the Deadly Firearms hack, you'd only roll 3 dice, but if you got, say, one success, the attack would inflict 4 agg damage.

Let's say you were to attempt an attack with the Wrist Blade manifest at 1, as well as Strength 2 and Weaponry 4. By Core you would roll 9 dice [2 Strength + 4 Weaponry + 3 Wrist Blade Damage (Lethal)]. Let's say you do so and score 4 successes. Since it's three or more successes, the Deadly Wound feature activated, inflicting a total of 5 lethal wounds. If, however, you were playing by GMC, you would only roll 6 dice. Let's say those 6 dice score 2 successes. Since it is fewer than 3, Deadly Wound does not activate. However, according to GMC the weapon's damage is added to the result provided at least one success was scored, so the attack inflicts 5 lethal wounds. If you had managed to roll 3 successes, then Deadly Wound would have applied as well, increasing the bonus successes by its rating (one) to make a total of 7 lethal wounds [3 Successes + 3 lethal from Wrist Blade + 1 lethal from Deadly Wound].

Vree wrote: Reliable: Cool mechanic.

Sweeping Hit: A bit difficult to justify it for myself while the lower Armor guy makes the rest vulnerable too, and the best dodger protects everyone by getting out of the way (one'd think the armor would stop the hit from proceeding to hit others, and the dodging guy would let the swipe continue cleanly), and it feels unfair that Defenses are not rolled separately...(But I can live with it.) Rolls were all lumped into a single attack to speed up the resolution of this weapon, because it's technically a multiple attack and it would eat up a lot of time if a roll needed to be made for each target. We can switch the Armor and Defense 'high-and- low' around, though. I hadn't considered the points you made.

Vree wrote: Defensive Flourish: OK

Sticky Grasp: see above; I think it could be worth clarifying if it only adds to establishing the grapple. In my version posted earlier I interpreted it as only adding a bonus against attempts to escape from the player's grapple (as 'Sticky Grasp', ie. some sort og glue, hook. etc. on the player's side seems to imply) It wasn't clear that it only counts towards establishing a grapple? Oh, I guess it's not. Yeah, that was always intended. It doesn't make it easier to control the grapple, just to start it. If a break-away mechanic were adopted (Somebody suggested a 'Grasp' trait once that worked like defense, but only in grapple situations), then Sticky Grasp would boost that mechanic. I guess there really is more to be said about this one. I'll try to come up with something.

Vree wrote: Restorative Action: This is basically healing (Medicine works much the same way). Bit weird that it's connected to a combat ability and being able to fully heal from any wound by punching people seems REALLY powerful. This COULD perhaps get some getting looked at, esp. if you are changing the healing through Breath rules to make healing Aggravated cost 5. Healing Wounds, on the WoD rulebook p. 61 could serve as inspiration/comparison here, maybe.

I don't much get it either why getting a kick out of punching people heals you instead of maybe giving WP or bonuses but whatevs. It was included because some people get invigorated by the adrenaline rush of pounding another guy's face, and it helps them ignore their injuries. It's attached to "Beat them into the Ground", which you were on the fence about anyway, so if one goes the other will go too.

I'm not sure what others I could come up with, though. If you've got some seed ideas, I can try to expand them.

Vree

CJC wrote: It was included because some people get invigorated by the adrenaline rush of pounding another guy's face, and it helps them ignore their injuries. It's attached to "Beat them into the Ground", which you were on the fence about anyway, so if one goes the other will go too.

That sounds like it'd manifest as ignoring the rightmost Health box penalties and Stamina rolls/bleeding if all Health is filled with Bashing/Lethal tho...Adrenaline helps you ignore the secondary effects but does not actually heal injuries...idk.

Oh, you can treat this as my response to "Beat Them Into The Ground" actually, I was looking at it motly from that aspect.

Here's an idea for a small tweak: to downgrade a wound, you must achieve X successes on hitting an enemy. 1 success = can erase Bashing 2 successes = can downgrade Lethal 5 successes (Exceptional) = can downgrade Aggravated

So, if you rolled 3 successes, then you can downgrade xAblution number of wounds, which can be Bashing or Lethal.

CJC wrote: Vree wrote:

Sticky Grasp: see above; I think it could be worth clarifying if it only adds to establishing the grapple. In my version posted earlier I interpreted it as only adding a bonus against attempts to escape from the player's grapple (as 'Sticky Grasp', ie. some sort og glue, hook. etc. on the player's side seems to imply) It wasn't clear that it only counts towards establishing a grapple? Oh, I guess it's not. Yeah, that was always intended. It doesn't make it easier to control the grapple, just to start it. If a break-away mechanic were adopted (Somebody suggested a 'Grasp' trait once that worked like defense, but only in grapple situations), then Sticky Grasp would boost that mechanic. I guess there really is more to be said about this one. I'll try to come up with something.

Here's what I wrote on this above: Normally, a person would use Strenght + Brawl to escape from a grapple, penalized by the opponent's Strenght. For players with this feature, the roll becomes (opponent's Strenght + Brawl) - (player's Strenght + Ablution dots).

Yeah, it depends on how you visualize it. I was imagining hooks that seep into the victim, or an adhesive from the Wall Climber ability. But if one imagines a whip for example, something long that can entangle at some range, I imagine a boost to establishing a grapple also seems reasonable. GMC has chains as weapons and as far as I recall they are similar...'d have to look it up tho.

CJC wrote: They function as a weapon. So, if you're using the Core book, then an Ablution with flexible damage (we'll use Inferno) adds its damage rating to the pool rolled and determines the type inflicted. The damage is equal to the successes of that roll.

If you're using the Deadly Firearms Hack or GMC, then you roll the regular pool and--if you score at least one success--then the Ablution's damage rating is added as bonus successes.

I will have to clarify that Deadly Wound only triggers before bonus successes go into play. The original roll needs to have three successes for Deadly Wound to activate. This makes it occur more frequently with the standard Core damage, and less frequently with GMC damage.

So by Core, if you had Inferno 3 manifest and you let loose a blast with Stamina 2 + Firearms 1, you'd roll 6 dice. We'll say that yields 2 successes, so the target suffers 2 agg damage. With the Deadly Firearms hack, you'd only roll 3 dice, but if you got, say, one success, the attack would inflict 4 agg damage.

Let's say you were to attempt an attack with the Wrist Blade manifest at 1, as well as Strength 2 and Weaponry 4. By Core you would roll 9 dice [2 Strength + 4 Weaponry + 3 Wrist Blade Damage (Lethal)]. Let's say you do so and score 4 successes. Since it's three or more successes, the Deadly Wound feature activated, inflicting a total of 5 lethal wounds. If, however, you were playing by GMC, you would only roll 6 dice. Let's say those 6 dice score 2 successes. Since it is fewer than 3, Deadly Wound does not activate. However, according to GMC the weapon's damage is added to the result provided at least one success was scored, so the attack inflicts 5 lethal wounds. If you had managed to roll 3 successes, then Deadly Wound would have applied as well, increasing the bonus successes by its rating (one) to make a total of 7 lethal wounds [3 Successes + 3 lethal from Wrist Blade + 1 lethal from Deadly Wound].

Hmm, OK...

Well we already established that Weaponry:Claws increases really badly (it only adds +1 Armor Piercing per level, which is horrible for its exp cost), I don't think I need to add anything new here - I don't think the Ablutions need any change really except for this, the higher levels often offer very little advantage. I guess we can go through them some other time and assure that they al check out like you said.

What if Fossilization worked like this:

If you are in a human form when you die, then you are just that - a dead human (albeit one with a missing heart). If you have any Ablutions out when this happens, those Ablutions Fossilize. If you went as far as your True Form, then your whole body Fossilizes.

So, you can not leave behind a corpse of a dragon or winged human. What you will leave behind is a statue of a dragon, or a dead human with broken stone wings next to him. Suspicious, but nothing overtly supernatural.

--- Furnace bandwith:

What about this simple rule:

The Furnace rating is also the highest Degree Of Divinity a dragon can attain. If she wants to go higher, she pays 1 Breath or suffers 1 Lethal damage for each additional degree (this bandwith increase lasts for a scene).

So, if a beginner dragon with 1 Furnace wants to reach DoD 2 (neccessary for a True Form), she takes 1 Lethal or pays 1 Breath for the privilege. Growing to DoD 4 from just Furnace 1 (if someone did that for some reason) costs 3 Breath/3 Lethal.

It seems fairer, because the difference between starting Furnaces isn't that big. Simpler, too.

CJC

Vree wrote: What if Fossilization worked like this:

If you are in a human form when you die, then you are just that - a dead human (albeit one with a missing heart). If you have any Ablutions out when this happens, those Ablutions Fossilize. If you went as far as your True Form, then your whole body Fossilizes.

So, you can not leave behind a corpse of a dragon or winged human. What you will leave behind is a statue of a dragon, or a dead human with broken stone wings next to him. Suspicious, but nothing overtly supernatural.

I like this very much, though it does have the unfortunate side effect of certain bodies leaving massive gaping holes in their flesh when certain portions fossilize (for example, with claws, upon death the hands would turn to stone and break off, leaving a terribly mutilated corpse). It's nice in its gruesome, serial-killer way, but it may have unintended consequences (like drawing too much attention to the death). Let's see what others have to say about this. After all, if the whole body fossilizes on death then statues would randomly appear for no explained reason, some of which bearing grotesque features.

Quote: Furnace Capacity

What about this simple rule:

The Furnace rating is also the highest Degree Of Divinity a dragon can attain. If she wants to go higher, she pays 1 Breath or suffers 1 Lethal damage for each additional degree (this capacity increase lasts for a scene).

So, if a beginner dragon with 1 Furnace wants to reach DoD 2 (neccessary for a True Form), she takes 1 Lethal or pays 1 Breath for the privilege. Growing to DoD 4 from just Furnace 1 (if someone did that for some reason) costs 3 Breath/3 Lethal.

It seems fairer, because the difference between starting Furnaces isn't that big. Simpler, too.

Bold is my text. I have two adjustments: First--when the mortal first joins the Oroboroi, she attains True Form regardless of this Furnace restriction, and does not suffer Breath loss for doing so. Second--this will have to require the DoD 0 = Human feature. Should we come up with a DoD 10 for this, then?

On to another topic: the pass-over of Ablutions. I only had time and room to do three so far. I'm working my way down the list, though.

New Ablution Costs are now New Dots x 3 for Common and In-Method, and New Dots x 4 for Out-of-Method. Edict Costs will also be adjusted, starting at New Dots x 5 (Can't go lower than that, lesser supernatural powers cost more).

So here's Ace through Jack of Hearts:

EDITED 6-26-2013 Inferno (Ace of Hearts) Though the heat of a dragon’s Furnace can be put to many uses and converted to many different forms of energy, sometimes the most effective application of that heat is incineration. The dragon simply belches out a blast of fire, good for igniting flammables and fauna alike. This blast has a short range in yards equal to double the points manifest in Inferno, plus 10 yards. Being that the Breath is in its most potent form, this attack inflicts horrific wounds. It is the only attack an Oroboros can make that deals aggravated damage. The damage rating of this Firearm-style weapon is equal to the points manifest in this Ablution. In addition, Inferno tends to set the scenery on fire. If the orb is not targeting a hostile entity, wherever it strikes causes a fire to erupt, of size equal to the odd points manifest in Inferno and intensity equal to the even points of Inferno. This fire, unlike the direct strike, functions as a standard flame and thus inflicts lethal damage rather than aggravated. Also, it is comprised of natural fuels and can be doused by any means. For more information on fire, see the World of Darkness Rulebook, page 180. Type: Sequential Cost: 1 Breath per shot Dice Pool: Stamina + Firearms Action: Instant Roll Results Dramatic Failure: In the unlikely event of a Dramatic failure, the dragon accidentally swallows the ball of flame she was about to project. She suffers a single point of lethal damage, but recovers the spent point of Breath. Failure: The orb of flame fails to connect with the target. If targeting the scenery it may still ignite a fire, but because the aim was poor the size of that fire is one level smaller than normal. Success: The orb of flame strikes the target and inflicts a number of aggravated wounds equal to the successes rolled. If targeting the scenery it ignites a fire with size equal to the odd points manifest in Inferno, and intensity equal to the even points manifest. Exceptional Success: In addition to the massive damage inflicted, the target catches fire as if Inferno had been used on the scenery. If the scenery was the target to begin with, the size of the fire is one level larger than normal. Tells Minor: The dragon’s voice becomes raspy, and the throat is hot to the touch. Moderate: As minor, but the throat pulses slightly as she speaks. Major: The dragon’s throat can be seen glowing from a distance. She gets a big case of “smoker’s voice” too, dropping it several notes and rendering it scratchy.

Impervious Hide (King of Hearts) In many of the tales of old, it was said that mortal weapons served no purpose against the scales of the dragon. Weapons of all materials were repelled by their mighty armored skin. Reality is not as perfect as myth, but in that tradition this Ablution makes a dragon much more difficult to kill. For each odd point manifest, the dragon receives a +1/0 rating to her armor. For each even point manifest, the dragon receives a +1/+1 rating to her armor. For every third point manifest, the dragon may ignore one success on an incoming attack. The armor ratings from this Ablution may be stacked with any worn armor the dragon may be utilizing, as it is both biological and space-efficient. Type: Odd over Even Cost: None Dice Pool: None Action: None Tells Minor: The dragon’s skin develops a rigid texture, as if damaged by repeated sunburn. In addition, several sections puff up and are hard to the touch. Moderate: The vulnerable regions of the dragon’s body become covered in thick plates, which have a slightly different tone than the rest of the body (slightly brighter or darker). The skin becomes more rigid, almost resembling bark. Major: As moderate, though the tone difference is much more significant (majorly brighter or darker) and each plate develops a spike in the center.

Motion: Wings (Queen of Hearts) Often when depicted in western art a dragon sports a pair of leathery or feathery wings, used to soar over villages and terrorize the populace below. Not all dragons have wings, but many of them like to fly. This Ablution allows them to do so. Having any amount of points active in this Ablution allows the dragon to take to the sky. The speed at which she flies is equal to (Strength + Stamina + 3) x the active points in the Wings Ablution. The dragon may fly at a vertical height of one mile per point manifest in this Ablution, though she cannot instantly leap to those heights. This means it takes a great deal of investment in the Ablution to fly as high as a commercial airplane, though that might be a good thing. This Ablution also helps to mitigate penalties for high winds, fog, knock-back, and severe weather. While airborne, these penalties are reduced by the odd dots manifest, and in the case of fog the reduction applies to everyone (as the flapping wings disperse the cloud). Type: Sequential Cost: 1 Breath to enable flight for the scene. Dice Pool: None Action: Instant Tells Minor: The dragon’s forms wings between her shoulder blades, but they are made of light. They flicker into existence when the dragon moves. Moderate: The dragon’s wings become material. Avian feathers down the length of the body give her an angelic appearance. They can still be concealed under a long jacket. Major: As moderate, but the wings set themselves ablaze. They’re also covered in various arcane symbols which are more demonic than angelic. They stick out like a thumb, and refuse to be contained.

Weaponry: Claws (Jack of Hearts) Dragons were not legendary simply for their longevity and fortitude. They were dangerous, and they had a personal arsenal of biological weapons to throw at their enemies. This weapon is the claw, strong enough to punch through armor and rip all comers to shreds. The claws have the “Armor Piercing” feature with a rating equal to the points manifest in this Ablution. That means attacks made with the claws ignore an amount of the target’s close armor rating equal to the points manifest in Claws. Claws make no distinction between biological and nonbiological armor. Attacks with the Claws are made with Strength + Brawl. The damage rating begins at two lethal, and increases by the even points manifest in Claws when the attack is made. More information on Armor Piercing can be found in the World of Darkness Rulebook on page 167. In addition, while this Ablution is manifest the dragon can use their sharp talons to climb sheer surfaces by clawing into the wall. The speed at which she may climb is a number of yards equal to (Dexterity + 2) x Claws, plus any other Speed modifiers (Rough vertical surfaces can lay penalties). Due to the sharpness of these talons, she may cling to any surface by her claws without rolling. Type: Sequential Cost: None Dice Pool: Strength + Brawl Action: Instant Tells Minor: The dragon’s fingernails thicken, point to the center, and elongate slightly. The trait of a derelict man, but not a monster. Moderate: The dragon’s fingernails erupt into barbs, curling slightly and rounding significantly. They can still be concealed under gloves, though mittens would work better. Major: The dragon’s fingers turn to sharpened bone from the second joint. Smooth, sleek, and completely bestial, these claws rip through fabrics that seek to contain them.

Shock

Indeed, They are threatening on a personal level but on a personal level, A Dragon are quite strong. So instead, I was trying to focus on making it more threatening for a Dragon on something they don't really have full control over: their province.

Remember, the large part of the Horror in Dragon: the Embers is the process of making one self into a leader, a governor, a tyrant and being directly responsible for those people as a whole. While the Mandate allows for some leeway on killing a few people here and there (All leaders usually have to do some dirty work), It typically stops short of widespread destruction to a Province or purposely enslaving/selling off Subjects like cattle (note that Subjects is subjective but I'll get back to that later).

The Deep Ones offer temptation for doing this. They desire human cattle (for reasons unknown), they want widespread destruction. They encourage the tyrannical urges that all Dragons have and eventually hone.

In the end of the day, A deal with the Deep Ones should end with something like a Dragon standing surrounded by the corpses of his former subjects screaming in horror of what he has done. That is, if he isn't too far gone already...

Vree

Why not use the Hydrae for something like this? This is exactly what they were created for. They could use the help, given that they are just lame mindless monsters now for some reason.

There is no limit to the number of supernatural enemies a Dragon can have, the Deep Ones needn't be the bogeyman in every corner.

CJC wrote:

New Ablution Costs are now New Dots x 3 for Common and In-Method, and New Dots x 4 for Out-of-Method. Edict Costs will also be adjusted, starting at New Dots x 5 (Can't go lower than that, lesser supernatural powers cost more).

Forget what I said about exp costs, I apologize. I came from a low-exp campaign and completely lost my sense of proportion. We are good with the current costs.

(Compared to Vampire, we are even cheaper. If this was vampire we'd be something like, Method Ablution: News dots x 5; Non-Method Ablution: New dots x7; Common (Suit Of Hearts) Ablution: New dots x6. (But we have activation time too, so the slightly lower cost may be justified.))

#167 sums it up best what I see as vital changes. I think the Ablutions are largely fine. Nah, if Ablutions will need change they are going to be minor adjustments. It is the Edicts that need attention more.

In fact, it may be that what I view as slight adjustables in Ablutions are simply how you do things. For example, I prefer that if there is a bonus on the odd levels, there is another on the even levels as well, so that no single level seems more preferable. But seeing how you used it casually for Inferno just now, maybe I'm just getting it the wrong way. (Also, you get Tells at odd levels too, so maybe there's a drawback justification there - altho Tells do not add a numerical drawback atm.)

CJC wrote:

In addition, while this Ablution is manifest the dragon can use their sharp talons to climb sheer surfaces by clawing into the wall. The speed at which she may climb is a number of yards equal to (Dexterity + 2) x Claws, plus any other Speed modifiers (Rough vertical surfaces can lay penalties). To sharpen the claws enough to ensure they’ll hold the dragon without falling, a point of Breath must be spent this scene, but after that point she may cling to any surface by her claws without rolling.

Well, in the meantime I have come to terms with Wall Climber, so.

It is not a question that W:Claws needs help, because Armor Piercing is a pretty shoddy bonus, but maybe not like this? One possibility is that rather than 2 fixed damage, you add the Ablution dots as damage as well as Armor Piercing equal to either the full rating or the odd levels. (AP does not need to be as high as 5 because no armor is bigger than 3.)

Wall Climber: The cool thing about WC is that it requires no Breath. (Which is a needed adjustment of course, given that it is weak.) I wonder if that justifies that it is generally slow (low-speed) and rarely very useful. But it does get a Disarm bonus (I have suggested expanding this to grapple too (Sticky Fingers) above if that is not enough), so maybe it'll do fine?

CJC wrote:

In addition, Inferno tends to set the scenery on fire. Wherever the orb strikes a fire erupts, of size equal to the odd points manifest in Inferno and intensity equal to the even points of Inferno. This fire, unlike the direct strike, functions as a standard flame and thus inflicts lethal damage automatically. Also, it is comprised of natural fuels and can be doused by any means. For more information on fire, see the World of Darkness Rulebook, page 180.

Gah, me and my big mouth.

I actually just wanted something like "secondary fires started this way only deal Lethal, not Aggravated", but it might be unneccessary redundance to mention that and not let STs figure it out for themselves. I definitely do not want to desroy how concise the descriptions are.

(IMO it is good tho but it should not be possible to use in conjuction with targetting foes. If you want to set the scenery on fire, you should target some object separately.)

CJC wrote: Impervious Hide (King of Hearts) In many of the tales of old, it was said that mortal weapons served no purpose against the scales of the dragon. Weapons of all materials were repelled by their mighty armored skin. Reality is not as perfect as myth, but in that tradition this Ablution makes a dragon much more difficult to kill. For each odd point manifest, the dragon receives a +1/0 rating to her armor. For each even point manifest, the dragon receives a +1/+1 rating to her armor. For every third point manifest, the dragon may ignore one success on an incoming attack. While this ablution is manifest at any rating, the dragon possesses the bulletproof quality everywhere except her vulnerable scale (see page 133 in Chapter 3).

Well, that looks fairer.

Is there some other bonus someone can think of that would let us keep the odd/even structure that could be given in addition to the +1/0 or +0/1 at each level? I could not think of anything (Falling protection = no, falling damage does not work that way, fire protection = does not seem appropriate), but if there was just some other bonus ths could be kept like this.

Bulletproof: I wonder if this is in the right place.

1: in most gamebooks "bulletproof" quality is not what it is here. In Vampire, the bulletproof quality is granted because the vampire does not have vulnerable organs that could be ruptured, and it is similar decentralized anatomy that justifies it in other books too. Bulletproof armor is simply modelled with a +0/X armor rating; there is no Lethal > Bashing downgrade.

True Form gives damage downgrade. So the True Form dragon takes no damage from firearms at all, not even Bashing. Is that really fine?

I believe the goal was to encourage the use of melle arms over guns. But even Vampires only get the Bashing from bullets, Lethal from edged weapons deal - isn't this package a bit over the top?

Bulletproof was my actual elephant in the room for this Ablution, because it is too big an advantage (IMO) to be given in addition to other armor on the first level.

But maybe Bulletproof could be merged into/used to replace the damage downgrade from DoD/True Form? What do you think here, everyone?

CJC wrote: Motion: Wings (Queen of Hearts) Often when depicted in western art a dragon sports a pair of leathery or feathery wings, used to soar over villages and terrorize the populace below. Not all dragons have wings, but many of them like to fly. This Ablution allows them to do so. Having any amount of points active in this Ablution allows the dragon to take to the sky. The speed at which she flies is equal to (Strength + Stamina + 3) x the active points in the Wings Ablution. The dragon may fly at a vertical height of one mile per point manifest in this Ablution, though she cannot instantly leap to those heights. This means it takes a great deal of investment in the Ablution to fly as high as a commercial airplane, though that might be a good thing. This Ablution also helps to mitigate penalties for high winds, fog, knock-back, and severe weather. While airborne, these penalties are reduced by the odd dots manifest, and in the case of fog the reduction applies to everyone (as the flapping wings disperse the cloud).

Hmm, yes, soaring flight. I've been thinking of stuff like that too (also musing if dragons can "hover"; probably not) but again, I think I'm unneccessarily complicating things.

For most other forms of movement there is a secondary bonus, so maybe if there is none for Flight (and it also costs Breath), it'll be fine the simple way?

Maybe you can only stay in the air for Ablution dots x turns? But that feels a bit limiting...

--- Yeah, sorry, I've been going back on a lot of stuff I said about Ablutions. Colossal Size, too; if we are going "hybrid" dragons, I see no issue with giant humans.

Suggestions I do actually mean (I'll try to keep anything "optional" to a minimum):

Colossal Size

Minor change to the Tells:

Minor: The dragon gains extra mass and looks like a very big human, but still overtly like a mortal.Those who know her however will notice immediately and she may have trouble explaining it to them.

Moderate: The dragon gains exuberrant mass; she is bigger than any human can concievably be, even a person with gigantism.

Major: as before

Explanation: 6 Size is what most "large people" (Bud Spencer-types) are in the Wod. But it is conceivable that a human may be Size 7 (ca. the size of a horse) although gigantism may likely be suspected. It is impossible for a person to be Size 8 or greater, so it should be pointed out in the text.

(This is actually in line with the other Ablutions, where a Moderate Tell is already near-impossible to hide, but a Minor one can still usually pass for human.)

Slithering: Okay, maybe I'm going into Optional territory here again, so, a question first. Tells: Do Tells actually have a numerical drawback anywhere? So, does it matter that they are assigned to the odd dots? Is there any part of the text where the highest number of dots active in any Ablution is added as a penalty against being detected, or the severity of mortal reaction or such?

Also, what is the highest Ablution degree when you can still pass for human?

I've actually been thinking that maybe distribution like this is more realistic: 1: Minor (can pass for human with little difficulty 2-3: Moderate (can pass for human at a distance and in poor light) 4-5: Major (can not pass for human)

Well, enough of that.

Slithering:

I originally conceived this as a bonus on the even dots of Serpentine, to work like this:

Odd dots: +1 Brawl and -1 Size for the purpose of fitting through small spaces Even dots: +1 Athletics and Slithering

...although it can be mixed up differently.

However, it can also be its own ability.

Here is the explanation:

A regular mortal who is Prone (check WoD rulebook p. 164 for more information) can move around at speed equal to their Strenght. (House rule; WoD Core never specifies this, but it seems reasonble. This would be eg. soldiers crawling around under enemy fire and such.)

A dragon with Slithering 1 (at Serpentine 2) can add their Dexterity, moving up to Strenght + Dexterity while remaining Prone. Tell: Minor; the dragon appears to be crawling around on all fours at amazing speed.

A Dragon with Slithering 2 (at Serpentine 4) can add their base speed modifer, moving up to their regular Speed (Str + Dex +5) while remaining Prone. Tell: Moderate; the dragon twists her torso in ways no human could, crawling on their stomach in true snake-like manner.

Also, Quote: Slayer -> Hear Fear A Slayer's sense of hearing is improved dramatically, to the point where she can detect the sound of a heart in the chest, the speed of respiration, and even the churning of the stomach. As such, she can determine how mentally and physically strained someone is. When the enhanced sense is active, the Slayer knows exactly how much Health and Willpower a person in earshot possesses. He can also detect the absence of a Heart, allowing him to recognize another Oroboroi.

Finder -> Smell Treasure A Finder's sense of smell is exceptional. She also gains the bizarre ability to detect the worth of objects by their scent. Her nose essentially becomes a metal detector while this enhanced sense is active. If she smells jade when searching near another being, she is really detecting the jade threads and can conclude that person is an Oroboroi.

Challenger -> Feel Talent A Challenger's sense of touch borders on the indescribable. From vibrations on the ground and in the air, a Challenger can sense how talented someone is just by standing near them. When this sense is active, the Challenger knows how many dots of a skill a nearby person possesses. She cannot detect attributes, but she CAN tell if the person is capable of Degree of Divinity (and thus if the person is an Oroboroi).

Trickster -> See Heat A Trickster's sense of sight surpasses the greatest snipers. She can adjust her eyes to see a combination-view of night-vision and infrared, detecting both heat and very low visibility light.

Inheritor -> Taste Danger An Inheritor's sense of taste is bizarre. She can actually detect danger as a bad flavor in her mouth. Her taste-buds react to pheromones in the air, and can tell her when she is in imminent physical danger. If she would be poisoned, attacked by surprise or ambushed, or placed in peril by an unseen weapon (like a booby trap or a bomb), she experiences an unpleasant sensation on her tongue informing her (possibly) that something bad is about to happen, provided the sense is active. is going to be a default advantage for each Method right?

I definitely approve, it will make having a Method interesting in new ways.

And I love the idea of doing the senses through this route, rather than Ablutions.

I do not think they could even be improved (maybe Trickster, as it is a bit of an odd one out -it is more resembling the traditional meaning of senses, like the ones I posted before).

Question you may want to think about: does their dominant "sense" affect which normal sense becomes sharper, eg. with increasing Degrees Of Divinity?

Also, highly Optional but cool ideas for expanding these: suppose that everything that could be on a sheet can be detected by one of the Methods: Attributes (mental, social, physical) Merits (mental, social, physical) Willpower (current/max) Skills & Specialties Virtue/Vice Aura (mood) Size Structure Durability Health (current/max) Furnace (or other metanormal advantage) Breath (or other power) (current/max) Method and Philosophy Ablutions

The Slayer can tell a person's current Willpower and Health, and if they suffer from any physical afflictions (tired, sick, pregnant, crippled, etc.), as well as their physical Attributes.

The Trickster can tell another person's Virtue and Vice, their current Mandate or Morality rating, and if they currently suffer from any Derangements. They can also read their current emotional state through their aura (below).

The Challenger can tell a person's highest level in a skill, if they possess any specialties, and if the character has any mental or physical Merits. They also know how much current and maximum Breath or other metanormal resource they have.

The Finder can tell an object's composition, Size, Durability and Structure, and its value in Resources dots. They can tell if a person nearby is carrying Jade. They can also tell one's mental Attributes.

The Inheritor can read another dragon's Furnace rating, their Ablutions, and the Method or Philosophy they belong to. (They can tell other supernatural's rating in their own advantage too, and can spot if two supernaturals belong to different groups, eg. the difference between a Gangrel and a Nosferatu vampire, or a Promethean belonging to a new Refinement, even if they do not know what those groups mean.) They can identify Pilot Lights and Dragon-Born and know their rating in that merit (ie. how many generations a Dragon-Blooded is removed from their dragon ancestor) and also sense the "minor" splats of other splats (like a Sleepwalker or a Ghoul). They can also tell one's social Attributes.

All: every group can tell if another character is a dragon or not, if the dragon is a True Heart, and if someone is a Deep One (on the off chance that one of them manages to materialize) or made a bargain with a Deep One.

Aura signifiers:

This is a staple in the WoD (you can see the books it can be found in here). It is basically a way of determining a person's emotional state, not much superior to the Empathy skill, but the WoD also assigns colors to each type. Here's Vampire's list:

AURA SIGNIFIERS Condition /Color Afraid Orange Aggressive Purple Angry Bright Red Bitter Brown Calm Light Blue Compassionate Pink Conservative Lavender Depressed Gray Desirous/Lustful Deep Red Distrustful Light Green Envious Dark Green Excited Violet Generous Rose Happy Vermilion Hateful Black Idealistic Yellow Innocent White Lovestruck Bright Blue Obsessed Bright Green Sad Silver Spiritual Gold Suspicious Dark Blue Confused Mottled, shifting colors Daydreaming Sharp, flickering colors Diablerist Black veins in aura Dominated/Controlled Weak, muted aura Frenzied Rapidly rippling colors Psychotic Hypnotic, swirling colors Vampire Aura colors are pale Shapeshifter Intensely vibrant aura Ghost Splotchy, intermittent aura Magic Use Myriad sparkles in aura

So, for a Trickster, additons like this may be made: - Deep One (emptyness, with occassional flickers of dark green/brown/blue colors) - a person that made a bargain with a Deep One (certain shades are missing)

CJC

Yes, each sense is associated with one Method, but the Ablution 'Chimerical Awareness' (awesome new name, woo!) allows a dragon of ANY method to utilize the senses of another method (albeit at a cost to Breath).

It was my intention that each method's sense would let the Oroboros detect others of her species, so long as she was utilizing it when she met them. Slayers hear the absence of a Heart (or, after we rework how the Heart works, the difference between a missing heart and the double beat [lub-dub-a-dub-lub] of the nine-chamber Heart). Finders smell a faint trace of Jade when in the presence of another dragon, detecting the portal veins of their Heart (which are lined with Jade). Challengers feel the presence of muscular restructuring, recognizing the Furnace's ability to reshape the body. Tricksters actually see the heat of the Furnace when staring at another Oroboros. And Inheritors can taste the danger of an Oroboros presence.

Some of them do need tweaks, though, and I like the idea of Tricksters seeing emotional states (though not necessarily understanding them without an empathy roll). I think that Challengers or Inheritors should also have the ability to detect magnetic fields, though I'm unsure which sense suits this better (smell or taste) or which one needs the bump more. Tasting danger is pretty significant, though, so perhaps the sense of touch will gain a penchant for magnets.

I'm dumping Bulletproof from the Impervious Hide Ablution; it will go into True Form. I'd also like to note that flight protects against knock-back, since the wings function as surface area resistance. Claws will keep Wall Climbing, but I'm adding a damage boost for every Even Dot. Coupled with DoD, that should make them quite viable as a weapon against other dragons (especially those with massive Bio-Armor and regular armor stacked on top, like an Oroboros with Impervious Hide 5 and riot gear). After this post, I will edit the earlier one to avoid confusing new readers

You haven't turned me back on Colossal Beast, though. I want to roll that into DoD, especially if I need to come up with a DoD 10. Also, I'm leaning towards giving Serpentine the 'Motion' classification and adding a bonus to Hold Breath while it is in use, since it seems like an aquatic kind of movement. I DO like the slithering, though, so I'll try to work that in.

Vree

I really do not want to force any changes I might regret,l so I really mean it that Ablutions should probably be left alone for now.

Inferno -> already OK really Wall Climber -> OK too Impervious Hide + W:Claws -> I was right about these scaling up badly, but I'm yet to see orthink of a new version that I completely like. I think a Claws that adds its rating to the roll and a Hide that has no Bulletproof and odd/even plus a secondary bonus on every level, or simply +1/1 on every level is OK tho.

Wings ->

"I'd also like to note that flight protects against knock-back, since the wings function as surface area resistance."

I don't think wings can do that, because they face forward, not backward.

Wings do have some other potential functions, like providing coverage, but I kinda preferred that they weren't compulsory. (So Chinese dragons without "real" wings were legit.)

"speed = (Strength + Stamina + 3) x the active points in the Wings Ablution" Where did the +3 come from? It does not need the extra speed. (And why 3, why not 5? =the normal base)

"The dragon may fly at a vertical height of one mile per point manifest in this Ablution, though she cannot instantly leap to those heights. This means it takes a great deal of investment in the Ablution to fly as high as a commercial airplane, though that might be a good thing."

I think it will never ever matter in a campaign whether a character can fly 1 mile high or 5. 1 mile covers every conceivable situation.

CJC wrote: You haven't turned me back on Colossal Beast, though. I want to roll that into DoD, especially if I need to come up with a DoD 10. Also, I'm leaning towards giving Serpentine the 'Motion' classification and adding a bonus to Hold Breath while it is in use, since it seems like an aquatic kind of movement. I DO like the slithering, though, so I'll try to work that in.

Serpentine isn't doing so bad already really.

How is holding breath related to having a flexible torso? Do an Aquatic ablution if you have room for a Hold Breath.

Maybe slithering could be joined with aquatic? then we don't need to mess with the rest.

CJC wrote: It was my intention that each method's sense would let the Oroboros detect others of her species, so long as she was utilizing it when she met them.

This, I agree with. (I also gave them the option to identify True Hearts and the Deep One-touched on top of that the same way, as it seemed logical.)

CJC wrote: Some of them do need tweaks, though, and I like the idea of Tricksters seeing emotional states (though not necessarily understanding them without an empathy roll). I think that Challengers or Inheritors should also have the ability to detect magnetic fields, though I'm unsure which sense suits this better (smell or taste) or which one needs the bump more. Tasting danger is pretty significant, though, so perhaps the sense of touch will gain a penchant for magnets.

We can lose the magnetic field idea, since your new Finder has that covered.

Detecting stats: well you started this ;, with Slayers detecting Health/WP and Challengers detecting skills, but I think it was a good idea, and some good things came out of it too.

The dragons need not be able to use all of this at the highest level. For example, maybe a Challenger only knows another person's HIGHEST skill. It is also possible that there is a roll involved, and you can only sense the really juicy stuff on an Exceptional Success.

Example roll dice list Finder: INT + Investigation Slayer: WIT + Survival Challenger: WIT + Empathy Trickster: WIT + Streetwise Inheritor: INT + Occult unless it is the same for everyone

Tricksters sensing Morality and Vice could work well with their theme. But what I really like is the Inheritors being able to size up main and minor splats.

"Taste danger" I don't like much. "Taste", yes, but just like Flight Of The King and Rzor Fins there seems to be a theme that Inheritors are constantly running away. But the Inheritor method should express that among all dragons, they are the best suited to leading and keeping large provinces.

If an Inheritor can size up other dragons and dragon-blooded, and can even spot other minor splats, I think that is sufficiently useful that one won't feel envious of the Slayer's ability to learn useful info like HP/WP at all. And it seems like it would be vital for managing their domains if they can size up other dragons' affiliations and power instantly.

As for spotting other supernaturals, yes I want this to be an Inheritor assigned ability. Vampires and Mages are always among themselves so they only have to be afraid of each other, but the dragon's province and allies are mostly a bunch of humans. So the inevitable Mage/Vampire or ghoul/sleepwalker inflitrattion will happen, both in-universe and in-game. And that may happen in any dragon's domain, but not in an Inheritor's; that 1 method in 5 is protected. I think that goes a long way to prove that they are the most suited for large provinces, and that you should pick them for that purpose and not one of the other Methods.

CJC wrote: You haven't turned me back on Colossal Beast, though. I want to roll that into DoD, especially if I need to come up with a DoD 10.

You don't need to really, no-one will ever have that many Ablutions. Not even if you drop it from the current 100 at DoD 8 to just the normal 40 (5x8)

I think it's perfectly fine for DoD AND Colossal to both grant size if you agree. WoD elephants are Size 15 by the way.

Satchel

Okay, I've hit the end of Chapter Two so far and the main observations I've got are:

1. This thing is in dire need of editing for multiple reasons.

2. The tone is all over the place, to the book's utter detriment, in many different ways; portions of the text seem to be trying to give a "scientific" feel to things, several quotes appear to be trying too hard to be funny, and the general tone doesn't seem to understand where the line between formal and informal is.

3. There looks to be far too much bookkeeping and non-arithmetic math at work here and that's just. not. elegant.

4. There appears to be absolutely no reason for all the cosmology that doesn't have to do with the Dreamtide, considering that a) you've established that the Oroboroi can't interact with the other realms anyway and b) needlessly inventing elements of cosmology that have no utility and outright contradict established lore is a waste of wordcount.

5. The Invisible Realms stuff further seems to be needlessly married to the repeatedly disproven "Fallen Reflections of the Supernal Realms" theory of how the Shadow, the Hedge, the Underworld, and so on fit together.

6. I still have no idea what the Oroboroi are, metaphysically speaking; my friend, who is relatively new to WoD but eager to learn about it, repeatedly asked what the hell this game actually has to do with dragons, which would seem to make "dragons" an unacceptable answer to my own question of what "dragon" means to the Oroboroi.

Hopefully Chapter Three will be enlightening, but given all the references to new subsystems in the Ablutions section I haven't got a good feeling about it. I'll reread Chapter Two tomorrow after I've read Chapter Three, in any case.

So. Chapter Three.

01. I don't particularly care if you guys drew from Werewolf's formatting and thus think shapeshifting rules belong in the systems chapter, you can't put the rules for actually using your powers after all of the powers. That is the opposite of good layout construction.

02. Reference is made to going to sleep before a point of Breath can form causing you to lose excess Calories without benefit. No reference is made to the actual timeframe for forming a point of Breath from food. This and the replacement of normal deprivation mechanics with "spend a point of Breath every X hours" does little to dissuade me from never making a character without a Hoard to engage with the "eat flammables" system as little as possible.

03. A minuscule boost to Furnace Bandwidth does not appear to be a worthwhile benefit of high Ethics, particularly given the scaling involved.

04. Why why why is torture worse than cannibalism.

05. Keeping track of two different character sheets for a Saintly Devil does a fantastic job of ensuring I will never play one. Tracking two different Ethics ratings makes a special kind of non-sense, given that we're talking about characters that functionally just have an extreme form of the Multiple Personality derangement and the stuff about Hydras and Antecedents and Saintly Devils feels like it should link up but does not.

06. Antecedents use a different fuelstat and a different Attribute setup than ghosts. Wherefore?

07. As a quibble, I do not think "walking haunted house" when I hear "undead tied to dragons."

08. What is the point of Red Pearls?

09. Willpower damage seems to serve no purpose except adding needless complication and bookkeeping. (This is a complaint I have with a lot of the systems here, in fact, but this is the shortest point where it came to mind)

10. Roughly eighty percent of the Bombastic Combat features do not need terms applied to them. The remaining twenty percent take up more space than they need to with overfiddly mechanics.

11. Trauma is so needlessly fiddly in its wording that it took me five minutes of staring at the section to piece together something that should be exceedingly simple to state and should not even need a systems term for it: "Take a -X penalty to your next action whenever you move more than half your Speed or benefit from your Defense."

12. It would probably have been a good idea to seed the fact that dragons are amphibious earlier in the book, given that it's one of the few things that seems to tie into the imagery Deep Ones inhabit as common ground.

13. What is the point of Grafts?

Didn't wind up rereading Chapter Two very extensively, though I question anew the need for several of the Merits therein.

Overall I stand by my earlier assertion that this thing is in dire need of editing and further note the extensive systems bloat at work here. Take a pruning knife to some stuff.

Chapter Four tomorrow, along with the first Appendix.

Chapter Four and Appendix One today.

01. The Knights of the Bloody Chalice appear to be bog-standard blood-bathers. Given that they and vampires make up two thirds of "Those Who Hunt For Blood" and their inclusion seems to add nothing to the game, why are they included? (Fold this and the inclusion of Werewolves under "Those Who Hunt For Flesh" into the greater point of "strike the pointless crossover elements.")

02. Was there any need for an Experience section in the Storytelling chapter?

03. The Oroboroi being able to bodily enter the Dreamtide because the people who ate [the people who ate * n] the original dragons were cannibalizing beings who could enter the Dreamtide seems like flimsy metaphysics and doesn't do much to clarify what the Oroboroi are.

04. How does allowing animals as portals to the Dreamtide benefit the game, exactly?

05. The "anchor" that marks a dragon's entry-point is ill-defined.

06. Is there a point to distinguishing Dolls, Carrion and Anima? (And why those names?)

07. Reference to "redundancy" appears to miss an opportunity to examine the nature of aggregate consciousness, which itself would be an interesting tie to the hoarding dragons purportedly engage in.

08. Mage cosmology reference aside I can determine no reason for the deepest part of the Dreamtide to be called Pandemonium.

09. Lucid Dreamers seem severely overpowered for what the term actually entails, particularly when accounting for the interference of another mind.

10. Pulling inventions out of the Dreamtide doesn't seem like a thing that should be doable on a lasting basis as a matter of course.

11. Willpower as Health seems needless when considering that one need only "count" attacks that damage Willpower if they "matter" in the context of the dream and apply derangements to attacks that bring a dreamer to a certain amount of negative Willpower.

12. Why do Nightmares need a new fuelstat and why is its capacity calculated in such a wonky manner?

13. Why do Deep Ones take organs, narratively speaking?

14. "Omissions" breaks the theme established by the previous six categories of Ablutions and is awkward besides.

15. I question the need for a Dracthulhu Tell.

16. Why why why are the Challenger's and Trickster's favored Attribute-boosters in this set?

17. Putting the Heart on the bargain chart, while a nice reference to the myth of the forgotten god, doesn't do much good when the Heart is tied up in so much weirdness that you can't offer it (even if you're a True Heart?) and reference to the price is spotty at best.

18. The loss of ability to feel an emotion and the receipt of glass internal organs seems a bit out of left field and feels like it could be tied to Fossilization in some fashion.

19. There are fewer extant dots of Deep One Ablutions than can be gained by bargaining with Deep Ones.

20. Omissions Ablutions don't seem like things that would arise from giving away your emotions from the way they're described.

21. The cthonic ghuls' stats are a mess and I can think of no good reason why this should be so.

22. Are Shayatin just around as a way to learn Edicts?

And I stop there, for the time being, because the Signature City and Mirrors Appendices aren't of much concern to me at the moment. Am opening the door now for feedback on my abbreviated feedback.

Exploding Frogs

On the topic of cosmology, and the origins of dragons:

I actually disagree with what's in the book, as well the alternatives proposed thus far. All of it seems to serve mainly to downplay the Mage/Atlantis/Dragon connection, which is actually a pretty bad thing to downplay IMHO, since it can fit very well into the established themes of rulership and lost glory, and coming up with new stuff more or less specifically to say "no, these aren't those dragons" instead of taking advantage of that existing connection actually weakens the splat's themes instead of strengthening them. It makes them feel a bit all over the place.

Also, a lot of nWoD gamers (myself included, admittedly) who hear about a nWoD fan-game called Dragon are going to assume that it centers around the dragons from Atlantean myth, and the sheer disappointment of discovering that this is not the case can kill a lot of the interest in the game.

My advice would be to heavily imply that the original dragons were the Atlantean dragons, but not outright state it. Something like:

The Collapse wasn't as simple as mortals usurping divine tyrants. The original dragons withdrew from the world long before the Collapse...or at least, they meant to. But the world kept drawing them back in, and one by one, the daring and the audacious managed to take fire from Heaven when it came back into the world. Eventually, the original dragons stopped coming, and the usurpers were all that was left. But who can say if they're really all gone? Did the Collapse get them all, or do dragons yet live beyond the world?

This adjusted backstory and cosmology would eliminate the Dreamtide, and not really replace it with anything. It doesn't really need anything to be replaced with; not all gamelines need their own specialized Realm Invisible. Vampire and Promethean do just fine without, for instance.

I also think that Ablutions and Edicts need to be rethought somewhat.

First, the card metaphor seems to be a leftover from some early development ideas, since it doesn't really fit in with anything else with the arguable exception of the term "Last Hand". I personally find it somewhat difficult to take the Ablutions seriously when they're sorted and categorized like playing cards, of all things. And since everything needs to fit arbitrarily into the six suits, it limits conceptual space for creating new Ablutions and categories thereof. It seems to me that it would be better to categorize Ablutions along lines such as "Weaponry" and "Movement", making some categories favored by certain Methods, some by all, and some by none, than to jam everything into the six-suit model even when it doesn't really make sense as part of that suit.

Also, some of the powers granted by Ablutions don't seem to fit the concept of what an Ablution is. Envoy's Passage, for example--how is this in any way dragonlike, or the kind of thing you'd expect to be able to do by burning away your mortal impurities into a more divine form? Ablutions should be fairly simple and direct, and tied to the physical form wherever possible. It's making yourself stronger, faster, more lucky, more charismatic, sprouting claws and wings and getting supernaturally keen eyes and fiery breath and impenetrable scales and making yourself more generally dragon-like--not creating complex abstract effects like a temporary Status merit.

I think Edicts should go for a similar feel and further play up the Mage/Atlantis/Supernal connection. They should be invocations of primordial forces, the building blocks of reality, and using multiple Edicts to produce more complex effects should be a thing. I don't mean that they should be Arcana by another name--the original dragons lead Mages to the secrets of the Supernal, but they had their own ways of accessing them, older ways, different ways, more primal ways. But I think Edicts should be a bit more freeform than they are, and definitely have that simple, direct, primal feel too them. Each individual Law should be a straightforward invocation of the primordial force associated with its Edict; it's when you combine Laws, either from the same or from multiple Edicts, that you get complexity. It's like a language, with even a single word or phrase being meaningful (and powerful, in this case) but whole sentences being so much more so.

I don't really think it's necessary to have Edicts for each and every Ability--for one thing, it kind of kills suspension of disbelief that there's this ancient, powerful dragon magic relating to your skill with, say, computers. For another, Oroboroi seem like the sort of splat that would use Attributes for most of their magic, and Skills in a primarily mundane capacity--if an action using one of their Skills is supernaturally enhanced or impacts one of their powers, it's because of the Attribute they're using for it, not because the Skill itself plays a supernatural role.

You're definitely on the right track with the verbal invocation thing--that just feels awesome.

CJC

Well Satchel, you certainly are thorough.

There are remnants of several vestigial features that I apparently missed, any references to Calories being one of them. Meals trigger the generation of Breath as soon as that limit is met, but we will be de-emphasizing (and possibly removing) food as a source of Breath. The current plan is to make Hoard a core mechanic (instead of a Merit) and give an Oroboros the ability to draw energy from inflicting fear or drawing praise.

I didn't write the Knights, I just pieced together what I found from other posters during the first compilation. You'll have to ask Shock about that.

I'll move Reforging up into the second chapter, and maybe bump Edicts into the third chapter (like Mage, I guess, especially if we play around with its mechanics).

Saintly Devils will be pruned as playable characters after the rewrite. I'm the only one who likes them anyway. Shock is adjusting Philosophies, and we're just not going to supply mechanics for them. It'll be up to the Storyteller to decide how they work.

Ethics is a mess as it is anyway, ask somebody else in the thread about the plans for Mandate. Also, I'm relinquishing the Mandate section to somebody else to write, so if you've got ideas go for it.

Trauma DOES need a term because it is referenced by several different powers (well, two, but there'll be more after the rewrite). It's less word count to explain it in one spot than over and over again in every power that references it. I'll try to work on the wording, though. Other features in that section, such as Reliable (the partial Rote ability), will begin to apply to more Ablutions after the rewrite, so they need to exist in Chapter 3 in some form. I wrote five combat-themed special mechanics so that each Method could have one weapon that bends the WoD rules in some way. So they're flexible, but they still need to exist in some fashion for certain Ablutions and Edicts to work properly.

Nightmares need a new fuelstat because that fuelstat is also their Health. They don't have Essence and Corpus like a ghost does. There is only Dread. So every Numina they use is reflexively harmful. I tried to come up with a formula that was tied to the Nightmare's stats but provided it a sufficient cap so that it wouldn't constantly kill itself by using powers. It's also accumulated in a different manner.

I'm not ready to touch on the Willpower as Health argument yet, because I don't have the book on hand on this computer. Willpower is the focal trait of this template (like Physical is for Werewolf and Health is for Geist) so we play with its established mechanics.

We'll throw out the 'suits' references in the rewrite, so 'Suit of Omissions' won't matter I guess. I can turn the glass organs into fossilized organs easily, but the Deep One bargaining for organs exists to serve both as a gruesome mental image as well as a point of intrigue. It's up to the Storyteller to figure out WHY they're collecting body parts.

Shayatin are a relatively new addition, so I didn't have time to incorporate them into the rest of the book. They're meant to serve as additional flavor in the Dreamtide and yes, they were added as a means of explaining how Oroboroi can learn to perform Edicts (despite the fact that it is a usurped right for them to do so, there's no reason why they should KNOW that they can alter reality with their words).

I've already been scolded by Vree for the 'reflection of the Supernal' bull in the first chapter. It will not be present after the rewrite. And the term Pandemonium will be replaced with something more appropriate, such as Somnus Trench or the Maelstrom. I like your mention of hoarding together similar dreams, though... there's something to build from there. The Thicker Waters are a little boring at the moment anyway. I'll look into that.

@Frogs The problem with lumping Ablutions together into categories is that some categories will be significantly smaller than others, and the methods that get discounts in those categories will feel cheated. I will discard the card motif, though (heh, discard). On the other hand, removing the 'Edicts' in lieu of a list of laws that can be purchased, mixed, and matched, is an astounding idea. I can see Laws functioning like individual Merits (IE, some of the more powerful ones have 'dead dots' that you have to pay for in order to learn them, which would make balancing easier), with the Effect Rating of a proclamation commuted to Degree of Divinity (or one of a few general 'styles' of proclamation, through which Laws would be associated. Picture levels of Renown, actually).

I'm currently in the process of passing through Ablutions again, so I'll keep an eye out for Edict-flavored and immaterial Ablutions to trim.

So that's all I've got for now. Yeah, it's a mess, I know.

On the Heart, Furnace, Fossilization, and Death Okay, so I'm dumping the aquatic thing (it's a lingering artifact of an old feature anyway), AND I'm disassociating the Furnace with the Stomach. That means Dragons will once again be subject to deprivation, though I may give an option to spend Breath to fill the stomach so that the themes of the Apocalypse Shard aren't altered too much (I like the twisted treasure hunt, and we need a reason why ancient Dragons can live for decades on treasure alone).

Instead, the Furnace is going to replace the left lung. The extra four point five chambers in the Heart serve to pump oxygen into the Furnace for the sake of combustion. This also explains why the Heart needs to come out of the chest; the Furnace needs space to expand in the body and the Heart is in the way. A growing discomfort, AND an inability to increase Furnace occurs until the Heart is removed. EDIT: I realized something was not implied, so here it is. There will be no mechanical difference between True Hearts and the rest of the Oroboroi. In fact, this version makes being a True Heart practically impossible because Furnace can't grow. BUT! When a Dragon dies with Heart removed, she becomes a True Heart again when she resurrects. I think this addition of repeated surgical removal will make a nice game point.

When an Oroboros expires, her body quickly fossilizes into a statue. Meanwhile, the Heart begins construction of a new body around it. When this body is complete, the Heart will be back inside the chest, and will need to be removed again (increased pressure on the Furnace from its presence causes it to decrease in size, resulting in a loss of one Furnace Dot). If the Heart was inside the fossilized remains, it obviously cannot build a new body and so the Dragon is dead for good. The Heart is somewhat like an old lawnmower in this process, it revs up to begin a reconstruction and might stall. If it does, the body comes back... wrong, resulting in a Death Derangement (some of which are supernatural in their execution).

The Heartbeat's volume lingers regardless of whether it's in the Oroboros' chest or in a locked safety box somewhere. This is due to a high Furnace's need for extra combustible fuel; the Heart has to pump faster to keep the fires fanned.

The Heart itself can be removed because it maintains an invisible bond with the Oroboros form, regardless of distance. For you see, it is the HEART that is the Dragon, and the body is simply a doll possessed by its consciousness. That's the reason why the body fossilizes when the Heart is not attached, as well as the reason why it can fabricate a new body.

Speaking of which, there is scientific grounds for any neuron to be able to store information, regardless of its location in the body. We see this in the case of organisms that exist without a brain proper but still possess the capacity for instinct, as well as the phenomenon wherein certain organ recipients adopt emotions or habits from their donors. This is something I'd like to explore in Dragon the Embers; the acquisition of peculiar characteristics because of a second-hand organ (the Heart).

Shock

Satchel wrote:

08. What is the point of Red Pearls?

To give some benefit to mortals who follow Oroboroi and to give some added incentive on why mortals may want to come after them. In short, it's a story hook and added leverage that a Ouroboros may use on his close mortal friends and allies. Also, The classic asian dragon is typically depicted with a Pearl in it's claws. We hoped to tap into this myth in the game for some added fluff. Satchel wrote:

13. What is the point of Grafts?

Grafts are (supposed to be) Dragon's answer to Werewolf's Fetishes, Mage's Artifacts, and Changeling's Tokens/Fae Props. In the current release, they are not really worth talking about as we know that they suck and will be looking over them shortly.

CJC wrote: Well Satchel, you certainly are thorough.

Much like taking Gorden Ramsey into a kitchen or a fat person going to a weight loss clinic, sometimes we need to hear harsh truths in order to get around to dealing with them.

I expected him to be. It's in his nature and this project is overdue to trim some fat. From all of us.

CJC wrote:

I didn't write the Knights, I just pieced together what I found from other posters during the first compilation. You'll have to ask Shock about that.

They were actually a leftover from Gepetto when he was still with the project. In essence, I think they can be pruned from the game at this point of time.

CJC wrote:

Saintly Devils will be pruned as playable characters after the rewrite. I'm the only one who likes them anyway. Shock is adjusting Philosophies, and we're just not going to supply mechanics for them. It'll be up to the Storyteller to decide how they work.

Personally, I would prefer to have them as a supplement but that bridge is not even close of where we are.

CJC wrote:

Ethics is a mess as it is anyway, ask somebody else in the thread about the plans for Mandate. Also, I'm relinquishing the Mandate section to somebody else to write, so if you've got ideas go for it.

I thought we already had the problems with the Mandate nailed down in this thread? Remember, He currently is referring to the "current copy".

Satchel wrote:

4. There appears to be absolutely no reason for all the cosmology that doesn't have to do with the Dreamtide, considering that a) you've established that the Oroboroi can't interact with the other realms anyway and b) needlessly inventing elements of cosmology that have no utility and outright contradict established lore is a waste of wordcount..

5. The Invisible Realms stuff further seems to be needlessly married to the repeatedly disproven "Fallen Reflections of the Supernal Realms" theory of how the Shadow, the Hedge, the Underworld, and so on fit together..

Exploding Frogs wrote: On the topic of cosmology, and the origins of dragons:

I actually disagree with what's in the book, as well the alternatives proposed thus far. All of it seems to serve mainly to downplay the Mage/Atlantis/Dragon connection, which is actually a pretty bad thing to downplay IMHO, since it can fit very well into the established themes of rulership and lost glory, and coming up with new stuff more or less specifically to say "no, these aren't those dragons" instead of taking advantage of that existing connection actually weakens the splat's themes instead of strengthening them. It makes them feel a bit all over the place.

Also, a lot of nWoD gamers (myself included, admittedly) who hear about a nWoD fan-game called Dragon are going to assume that it centers around the dragons from Atlantean myth, and the sheer disappointment of discovering that this is not the case can kill a lot of the interest in the game.

If there is one thing that give me headaches (and I'm pretty sure CJC feels the same) is the Cosmology.

Personally, I always felt the need for Dragon to distance it's self from any of the established game line. You shouldn't feel the need to crack open Mage the Awakening to understand what different realms we are talking about nor should a person crack open Changeling to deal with Dreams.

In essence, I always pictured Dragon stand on it's own merits without having to lean on any other game's universe.

But it is what it is.

Also: I've never liked the idea of tagging on the Oroboroi to Atlantis's Dragons for lore reasons: The Dragons in Mage seem less like flying fire breathing reptiles and more like personification of the Arcane. They speak as one, they offer no variety of opinion, and in all honesty, you can replace them with the Aeons and have the same thing. Even then you have Tremere's legend throwing very large monkey wrenches into the works (Sixth Dragon being blood? The Seventh Dragon being a Watchtower?)

But if we want to do this: we are going to have to tackle some of those issues.

CJC wrote:

So that's all I've got for now. Yeah, it's a mess, I know.

Ah, but it is a beautiful mess. As is life.

Satchel

Shock wrote: Satchel wrote:

08. What is the point of Red Pearls?

To give some benefit to mortals who follow Oroboroi and to give some added incentive on why mortals may want to come after them. In short, it's a story hook and added leverage that a Ouroboros may use on his close mortal friends and allies. Also, The classic asian dragon is typically depicted with a Pearl in it's claws. We hoped to tap into this myth in the game for some added fluff. I feel like combining this with Attras may be worthwhile, given that a cursory wikiing says that the dragon's pearl is a symbol of prosperity.

It also says the pearl is found in the throat, which could be interesting symbolic ground to build upon, possibly via the verbal component of Edicts.

Quote: CJC wrote:

Ethics is a mess as it is anyway, ask somebody else in the thread about the plans for Mandate. Also, I'm relinquishing the Mandate section to somebody else to write, so if you've got ideas go for it.

I thought we already had the problems with the Mandate nailed down in this thread? Remember, He currently is referring to the "current copy". Yeah, I didn't exactly comb the thread before I started reviewing, which is why some of the things I've noted are basically reiterating points Vree made upthread.

Quote: Personally, I always felt the need for Dragon to distance it's self from any of the established game line. You shouldn't feel the need to crack open Mage the Awakening to understand what different realms we are talking about nor should a person crack open Changeling to deal with Dreams. While I do agree, I feel like mining the other gamelines' draconic motifs for inspiration is a worthwhile course of action; it's been pointed out that Changeling, Hunter, Geist, Mummy and Demon all build on different subthemes of Mage and end up observably different games despite that.

Vree wrote: Satchel wrote: Suggestion: change Breath to Pneuma.

I don't think so. I find "Breath" perfect. It connects with dragons ('fire breath') and with qi/chi (Chinese life energy), which of course, literally translates to breath. Which would be lovely if the Oroboroi didn't seem to be drawing most of their uses of Breath from Hellenistic sources.

Quote: Pneuma sounds as if someone tried really hard to feed their Latin/Greek fetish Hydra.

Quote: (but this is a more Oriental game - not everything needs to connect to Latin terminology if there is no connection with the history) and came up with a name that sounds like a medical or a sex toy.

You'll pardon me for not finding "people might think 'pneuma' refers to 'pneumatic' in a euphemistic sense used in Brave New World and little else" to be a convincing argument.

I also find the use of the term "Oriental" to be a bit rich coming so soon after talk of fetishizing a language/culture.

Exploding Frogs

CJC wrote: Willpower is the focal trait of this template (like Physical is for Werewolf and Health is for Geist) so we play with its established mechanics.

Um. No. No it is not.

Willpower does not play a central role for Dragons any more than other splats, especially once you strip out the pointless Willpower-as-health mechanics. Which you are probably going to do at some point in the rewrite, because GMC's Conditions and Social Maneuvering does a much better job of modeling social, mental, and emotional conflict, and it seems rather wasteful to do such an extensive rewrite without updating to GMC rules while you're at it.

You may have intended for Willpower to play a central role, and used this intention to justify playing around with the mechanics, but that's not how the splat turned out. At least that's how it looks from where I'm standing.

CJC wrote:

@Frogs The problem with lumping Ablutions together into categories is that some categories will be significantly smaller than others, and the methods that get discounts in those categories will feel cheated.

Then make new Ablutions to fill out the smaller categories! The whole problem with the six-suit system is that it inhibits creativity, since there's a limited number of suits and a limited number of cards in each suit. Without those limits, you're free to have as Ablutions in as many categories as you like, and to have each category be more specific and thematic. Rather than "Finder Ablutions", you can have categories favored by Finders like "Sage", "Treasure", and "Tracker", which in turn allows for greater variety among Finders depending on which of their favored categories they have more Ablutions in, or if they're an even mix. Are they a learned and scholarly sage? Do they hide their treasure with intricate traps and riddles? Are they an unparalleled tracker, hunter, or Indiana Jones type?

CJC wrote:

On the other hand, removing the 'Edicts' in lieu of a list of laws that can be purchased, mixed, and matched, is an astounding idea. I can see Laws functioning like individual Merits (IE, some of the more powerful ones have 'dead dots' that you have to pay for in order to learn them, which would make balancing easier), with the Effect Rating of a proclamation commuted to Degree of Divinity (or one of a few general 'styles' of proclamation, through which Laws would be associated. Picture levels of Renown, actually).

I actually think that your current framework for Edicts and Laws is a great start. It's just the specific powers within that framework that could use rewriting. Needs a more primal, elemental feel, and a system for combining Laws to create more complex effects. And maybe different dice pools that downplay Skills--Attribute+Furnace? Or this might be a good place to put that mechanical emphasis on Willpower you said you were going for--Attribute+Furnace+Willpower? (If you take this route, should that be temporary or permanent Willpower?)

CJC wrote: On the Heart, Furnace, Fossilization, and Death

Don't like this.

First, it's trying to hard to be scientific. The plain fact of the matter is that we're talking about honest-to-goodness dragons who can survive the removal of their hearts. Coming up with scientific reasons for how this works just looks silly, especially when it means getting rid of awesome symbolic/mystical things like being literally sustained upon and nourished by reverence and fear.

Second, it screws over True Heart dragons. Don't screw over True Heart dragons. They get a raw deal as it is.

Third, Oroboroi already have plenty of incentive to remove their Hearts. They don't need to be mechanically forced to.

I do like the need to repeatedly remove the Heart upon resurrection, though, as well the loss of a Furnace dot. These are much more effective penalties than derangements.

Also, if you plan on doing a GMC update in the future, derangements aren't a thing anymore. Now we've got Conditions, which can represent a wide variety of, well, conditions including but not remotely limited to insanity. Curses, emotional turmoil, sickness, injury...

Vree wrote: Satchel wrote: Suggestion: change Breath to Pneuma.

I don't think so. I find "Breath" perfect. It connects with dragons ('fire breath') and with qi/chi (Chinese life energy), which of course, literally translates to breath.

Also, Mage has dibs on Pneuma; it's what Archmasters power their Imperium Rites with.

Satchel wrote:

You'll pardon me for not finding "people might think 'pneuma' refers to 'pneumatic' in a euphemistic sense used in Brave New World and little else" to be a convincing argument.

I also find the use of the term "Oriental" to be a bit rich coming so soon after talk of fetishizing a language/culture.

Vree wrote: shrug If I only said "it sounds #&@ing stupid", 'd you have liked better?

So there

Hey. Cool it, both of you. "Breath vs. Pneuma" isn't really something worth starting a fight over, is it?

Satchel

Exploding Frogs wrote: Vree wrote: Satchel wrote: Suggestion: change Breath to Pneuma.

I don't think so. I find "Breath" perfect. It connects with dragons ('fire breath') and with qi/chi (Chinese life energy), which of course, literally translates to breath.

Also, Mage has dibs on Pneuma; it's what Archmasters power their Imperium Rites with. A fact of which I'm well aware. It's also the name of a class of Investments that Belial's Brood uses. Geist and Promethean share at least two terms with related connotations, Werewolf's term for portable Essence reservoirs is the same as Blood and Smoke's term for things that make it easier to hold onto Humanity, Promethean and Vampire's Morality stat has the same name, and Changeling's word for fetches-turned-Glamourvore is the same as the word this project is currently using for Heart-eating Oroboroi. The Purified have used Chi already and they happen to be body-reconstructing once-human immortals, too, but that doesn't seem to have stopped the term from being used as inspiration.

"A tier-four character group and an antagonist splat from different games use the same term" does not a cogent argument make. Neither does "dibs."

"Breath" sounds mundane, with or without a Magical Capital Letter.

Vree

CJC wrote: I'll move Reforging up into the second chapter, and maybe bump Edicts into the third chapter (like Mage, I guess, especially if we play around with its mechanics).

Since you have 2x the usual powers, you should move the Ablutions down a chapter to be together with the Edicts and the reforging rules, instead.

A usual WoD book table of contents looks like this:

Chapter 1: Introduction Chapter 2: Character creation + Methods, Philosophies Chapter 3: Powers - Ablutions and Edicts, both list preceeded by the rules for using them Chapter 4: Special Rules & Systems - healing, morality, etc. Chapter 5+: Storytelling & Antagonist etc. but two of 2-4 is usually grouped together. Vampire and Werewolf had Ch2-3 grouped, while Mage had Ch3 as standalone. You could of course, simply keep them all separate, too (Genius:tT did), but if not, it may also be good to move the content from Ch4 to the character creation. (and the related leftovers like bombastic combat, which are Ablution additions, can go in Ch3).

CJC wrote: Satchel wrote: I feel like combining this with Attras may be worthwhile, given that a cursory wikiing says that the dragon's pearl is a symbol of prosperity.

It also says the pearl is found in the throat, which could be interesting symbolic ground to build upon, possibly via the verbal component of Edicts.

What if the Pearl is the Furnace itself? That would provide an interesting reason why the Oroboroi believe collecting them brings fortune, it would tie in to the Left Lung idea, AND it would give Dragons an excuse to kill each other outside relocating a Heart.

What if the Heart IS the Furnace?

I'll dwelve into dragon pearl symbology in a sec, but I want to bring up something first.

I always had a problem with this concept: The dragon consumes a Heart, then immediately removes it - this short time is enough for some sort of transfer to take place which 1. makes her a dragon from a mortal and 2. signals to the heart that they are their current owner who they must resurrect. Moreover, if being a True Heart can not be redone, there is still no stopping a dragon from putting her heart back into her chest simply for safekeeping. So, if you eat a heart, remove it, then put back the heart, then you can become a true heart who is not a true heart.

Since this is messy, I could be on board with a solution where the thing that is consumed (and which will go on to form the Furnace) and the thing that is removed/consumed to give immortality are separate.

There's also Satchel's Edict-pearl idea, so let's make a separation here:

There is X that the dragon consumes that makes her into a dragon. There is A which creates Breath and makes Ablutions possible (the Furnace). There is Y that the dragon removes that makes her immortal. There is B that makes using Edicts possible.

In this set-up, both the Heart and the Pearl can potentially be X or Y.

Let's assume for a second here that you become a dragon by consuming the Pearl. That then goes on to become the Furnace in you. Then you remove your Heart to become immortal. This is a (X+A+B) + (Y) separation.

This has the side effect that the dragons are now fighting for Pearls, not Hearts. Hearts are an additional trick.

Which is not neccessarily bad actually; see my notes below.

You also have to work out the relationship between the Pearl and the Heart. What happens if someone destroys one but not the other, and is one superior? If they destroy the Heart/Pearl do you simply become mortal; Do you drop dead; Do you fossilize?

And now, mythology.

I suggest that you read this article and this other one, just to get a better idea.

Essentially, historians have no idea what the "dragon pearls" actually stand for. They are shown in many pictures, and the dragon is either holding them in the mouth or under the neck, or chasing them, in fact often two dragons appear to be fighting for one. "Pearl" is not quite correct a word either, because the orb is always drawn surrounded by flames, and sometimes has a small bud growing out of it too. It is suspected to symbolize any of these things: 1. thunder 2. the sun or the moon (a giant beast chasing and swallowing the sun/moon is another ancient motif), 3. wisdom and enlightement and spiritual energy/essence.

One site points out the difference between Chinese and Japanese beliefs: The Chinese had an interesting myth concerning the black, Tahitian pearl. They believed that the pearl resided in the dragons brain, and that you would have to kill a dragon to gather it. Once the pearls were fully grown they were considered to nest around the teeth of the dragon. The Chinese also believe that when dragons fault pearls sometimes made their way down into the sea. Since the pearls come from dragon many Chinese people believe that the pearl is a sign of wisdom and age.

Like the Chinese the Japanese people matched pearls with animals. However, the Japanese didn't believe that dragons were responsible for the creations of pearls. They believed that sea creatures that cried in the ocean cried tears of pearls. The Japanese people believed creatures like mermaids, nymphs, and even angels were responsible for the creation of pearls.

Pearls are also believed to symbolize the Emperor's power, and there are many references to dragons losing some of their power after losing their pearl.

(Incindentally, there was also recently a not very good movie on the subject: "Two thousand years earlier, to defend his kingdom, the dragon lent an emperor his all powerful pearl. Instead of being returned the pearl was buried with the emperor beneath his palace, and helpless without its source of power the dragon has remained entombed ever since. With the Dragon Pearl buried on the excavation site, Josh and Ling implore their parents for help, but met with disbelief the children realize they must find the pearl on their own. However thereʼs one who does believe them: archaeologist Philip Dukas (Robert Mammone), who wants to seize the pearlʼs awesome power for his own sinister ambitions. The only way to stop him is for Josh and Ling to get to it first and return it to its rightful owner.")

Probably the best known legend is the Xiao Sheng/Flaming Pearl tale that can be read here or here. It goes like this:

Xiao Sheng, a young grass harvester finds an area where the grass is lush and plenty. He digs up the grass and discovers a pearl. It is soon found that if he put the pearl in jar of rice, or next to money, it causes them to multiply. When people come to steal the pearl from him, Xiao Sheng swallows it. His insides burn and he experiences unquenchable thirst, and then he is transformed into a dragon. In his transformation he eiminates the drought in the area and restored the river’s water.

So yeah, the Pearl seems pretty significant.

Here's another idea for how one may acquire it:

The first time the Dragon enters the Dreamtide, they must acquire the Pearl, a symbol of wisdom and enlightement. The Dreamtide shows up as either a sea with pearls at the bottom, or a sky with celestial bodies. From then on, the dragon becomes able to use Edicts. The pearl can be removed from the body and swallowed again anytime, but if the dragon loses it, they can't use Edicts unless they can get it back.

Well, there you have it. I'm not sure what would be the best.

Something else to note here:

The Chinese were soul dualists, believing in the hun and po, the physical soul and the ethereal soul. So if you are separating Heart and Pearl and Furnace, there's some room to have fun with that, too.

Cosmology and crossovers:

Vree's double-collapse theory (based on the 3 ranks of the Languages merit)

This one says that there were actually two Collapses. And the Dominion occurred a bit later.

1. There were dragons - the legendary dragons the size of a house who could control weather and everything. People killed them. We're not sure why. Maybe the dragons WERE evil, maybe people just thought they were. Also, we don't know if they are dead. Maybe only physically dead. Maybe not even that, they just had some of their power wrestled from them. 2. 2nd generation - first Oroboroi. They could steal some of the dragons' powers too, but when they ate the Hearts they did it lusting for power. They were tyrannical, they wanted to take the dragons' place but they were really just concerned with power and conquest. They did not care about the enviroment or the dream realms, just their position here. But they weren't the old dragons and could not live up to them - they could not keep control of their little empires which collapsed naturally. Eventually they too were overthrown by the... 3. 3rd generation. When these guys ate the Hearts, they did it to keep them safe, so that no power hungry person can have them again. They introduced the rules of secrecy that say that dragons can never be found out. +1. Well players are still technically the 3rd generation, but there is enough new stuff, rediscovering old languages and astral/Dreamtide stuff, Philosophies that say that the 2nd or 1st generation was right etc. to justify them as a new group.

...Something like that, maybe? idk, just musing

Exploding Frogs

Shock wrote: Vree wrote: Here's another idea for how one may acquire it:

The first time the Dragon enters the Dreamtide, they must acquire the Pearl, a symbol of wisdom and enlightement. The Dreamtide shows up as either a sea with pearls at the bottom, or a sky with celestial bodies. From then on, the dragon becomes able to use Edicts. The pearl can be removed from the body and swallowed again anytime, but if the dragon loses it, they can't use Edicts unless they can get it back.

Well, there you have it. I'm not sure what would be the best.

Upthread, you mentioned that having the Heart laying around is bad due to ST dickary (which is a real worry in some games) but I view this in almost the same light.

I would much prefer to have players have a benefit from having the a Pearl rather than an albatross around their necks.

Then why is the Pearl an albatross around players' necks in its current form? As things stand, only non-dragons benefit from it, and they can only get it by killing a dragon.

Also, the proposed change does note that the Pearl can be swallowed again at any time, so it's not necessarily easy to lose. Presumably there's some sort of benefit to removing one's Pearl, or no sane dragon would do it. It's a tradeoff, much like the removal of the Heart.

CJC

Well, an actual pearl is an immune response for the purpose of the quarantine and removal of irritants. But it sounds like we're building distance from the science, so... after reading the two articles Vree referenced about the Dragon's Pearl, acting as a symbol for the moon, fertility, enlightenment, or even reproduction. It feels like a good home for the Furnace. As for the 'remove this to be immortal' and 'eat this to become a dragon' components... well, I guess I'm not ready to go into that in full detail yet. I do have these hypothetical setups, though, for you to chew on: 1.) Ownership of the Pearl is what makes the character a dragon, and its loss results in the Oroboros' reversion to an ordinary human being. As such, it is ALWAYS in her possession (like in the artistic depictions). 2.) Ownership of the Pearl is what makes the character a dragon, and its loss results in her slow and painful fossilization. As such, it is ALWAYS in her possession. 3.) Consumption of the Heart is what makes the character a dragon, but it cannot be removed. Immortality comes in the form of agelessness, but any death is the last the dragon suffers. The Pearl is the Dragon's soul, immediately ejected from the body upon the consumption of the Heart. It is what keeps her from turning to stone, and as such it is always in her possession.

@Frogs ...Okay. Let's try to come up with some Ablution categories, then.

Aggression: Ablutions that form natural weaponry. Obvious candidates are all the current weaponry Ablutions, as well as Inferno, Noxious Breath, Venoms, and Tempest Roar. (that's eleven Ablutions)

Protection: Ablutions that protect the Oroboros body. Colossal Beast, Fire Skin (the new version), Impervious Hide, Vile Humours (the new version), Chameleon Hide, Flight of the King, and Envoy's Passage (whatever we come up with for a new version) fall into this category. (that's seven Ablutions)

Motion: Ablutions that give the Oroboros different means of locomotion. Wings, Serpentine, Burrowing Body, Aquatic (not written yet), Wall Climber, Pounce (though that might be pruned) and Void Step (earlier in thiss thread) fall into this category (That's eight Ablutions)

Impression: Ablutions that change the way an Oroboros is perceived by others. Reptilian Fear, Fork Tongued, Soothing Incense, Regal Stature, Bravo's Crest, Hoard of Knowledge, Mesmerizing Eyes, and either Envoy's Passage or Tempest Roar (not sure yet) fill this category (that's eight Ablutions, shrinks Aggression to nine or Protection to six).

Excellence: Ablutions that improve an Oroboros' natural talents. Keen Eyed (or rather, it's rewrite Chimeric Sense), Beat Them into the Ground (or rather ITS rewrite Invigoration), Impassioned Effort, Skill of the Gods, and Draconic Strength fill this category (that's five Ablutions).

???: Crown of the Ages and Binding Oath are unaccounted for, but it was discussed that these might become laws for an Edict. If you can think of a sixth category, let me know.

Gravitas Man

I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest and think Dragon has got a lot of potential.

Regarding the Pearl/Heart ideas being bounced back and forth. I think you should keep the role of the Heart as the source of immortality and being what makes a Dragon a Dragon as is. This idea is simple, easy to get, ripe with symbolism and has a certain gross factor that makes it pretty appealing. I would be very wary about tampering with this, as its a really cool idea that works well.

As for the Pearl, why not make Pearls something that Dragons can create themselves, that will later benefit themselves. This is just an idea off the top of my head, but something like a Dragon infuses a Pearl with a dot of Furnance. After that, as long as the Pearl is on him, it resonates with his power and allows him to access powers as if his Furnance was 2 dots higher. (So he gains an instant dot of furnance net, but at a risk of losing the Pearl). Pearls are thus extremely valuable to Dragons as being able to gain extra power, by stealing it from another rather than risking your own could be of use. This is a pretty rough idea, but I think it would make Pearls valuable, without cutting into the Heart's role. Mechanically how it would work, I'm not really sure.

Alternative idea. The Pearl is merely the most valuable item in a Dragon's hoard. It is a purely symbolic name, the actual object can be anything, even a Maiden. What makes it more than just an asset and a Pearl, is the Dragon's connection to it. By consuming his Pearl a Dragon can fully recharge his Breath to the maximum and possibly heal some of his health. A Dragon with a Pearl is thus able to fight longer and be more dangerous. However another Dragon may find and consume that Pearl for the same benefit, however this opposing Dragon must first discover what the Pearl is. If the Pearl is a Maiden, consuming need not mean killing. It could be a symbolic severing of the connection between Dragon and Maiden. The Maiden would be released from captivity would be sufficient.

The Pearl should be important, but I don't think it should be as important as the Heart. Something that can empower a Dragon if they have it, and stealing one should be tricky but losing one should not be life-destroying on its own. It would defintely be a major blow to the pride of the Dragon to lose such a valuable item though.

Vree

You are absolutely correct - preserving the horror element is important.

In many ways it is pretty clear that the mythological pearls IS the Heart - it serves the same functions.

So OUR true Xiao Sheng/Flaming Pearl tale may go like this:

Xiao Sheng, a young grass harvester comes upon a field where the grass is lush and plenty, and he can hear a faint thumping sound from under the earth. He digs up the grass and finds a disembodied heart, bloody and still inexplicably beating. He puts the Heart in a jar, but he keeps losing sleep over the mystery. He finds that if he puts coins in the same jar as the Heart, it causes them to multiply. He tries washing his face in the blood from the heart too, and finds that it makes him younger. When people find out his secret and come asking about the heart, out of fear that it will get taken from him, Xiao Sheng swallows it. His insides start burning up, he feels unquenchable thirst, and he is transformed into a dragon.

Maybe that could even be put in the book? :D "Changeling" is full of "improved" and "truer" stories like this one.

--- One detail/idea here is that the Heart may be the true Attra. Other "attras", lucky objects may exist, but they are just a tradition inspired by the heart's very real abilities. That certainly expands the options for a human who has the Heart, and helps to explain why they may attempt to swallow it. (Though these "good fortune" rituals are also probably sufficinently gruesome, forcing you to soak stuff in blood and such to bring about good luck.) Maybe.

CJC wrote:

3.) Consumption of the Heart is what makes the character a dragon, but it cannot be removed. Immortality comes in the form of agelessness, but any death is the last the dragon suffers. The Pearl is the Dragon's soul, immediately ejected from the body upon the consumption of the Heart. It is what keeps her from turning to stone, and as such it is always in her possession.

Yeah, that is my option B basically, the (X+A) + (Y+B) arrangement. Once you swallow the Heart, it becomes an extra organ inside you known as the Furnace which is responsible for creating and regulating Breath. You also eject your soul in the form of a Pearl, which you can keep in your throat or hide away. It is the Heart that makes you a dragon, but it is the Pearl that keeps you immortal.

If the soul jar (the Pearl) is crushed, the dragon drops dead.

If the Heart is removed, the dragon can not regain or use Breath, so they'll eventually suffer death via Fossilization. Other than this, the dragon can pop her heart in our out as she pleases.

The Heart: the Heart is what makes a Dragon. When you swallow the Heart of another Dragon, it becomes an extra organ inside you (a second heart) known as the Furnace.

The Furnace is associated with physical power and influence, Breath, Ablutions and Health.

The Pearl: Once you become a dragon, a pearl forms in your throat known as the Red Pearl. This is, in fact, the dragon's own soul. As long as the Pearl exists, you are immortal. The dragon can choose to eject the Red Pearl and hide it away to ensure their immortality.

The Pearl is associated with Willpower, immortality, wisdom, Edicts and the Dreamtide.

Destroying a dragon's Heart simply results in their death (Fossilization kills them for good). As long as the Heart (the Furnace) is intact though, the dragon can grown a new body around it. -> this helps justifying the Finders as a dragon may die and leave a Pearl without an owner behind. Or someone may kill the Dragon via heart/body destruction hoping that they may find the

-> however, all of this only does not solve my original problem with how the "power transfer" and the commincation between the "soul jar" and the body works.

Separating X (the dragon-maker) and Y (the immortality engine) in fact creates a new problem. It means that you may be able to consume X and the original dragon with Y may not die. So dragons may "breed", they simply have to die and recreate themselves for it every time.

This can be solved if you need to consume Y to become a dragon instead, but then what was the purpose of separating X and Y in the first place?

---

So yeah as you can see my attempt to split the Heart in two things may create as many questions as it solves. And I agree with Shock that maintaining the horror is important, and I'll to it myself that glorifying the Heart as a central element is also important. So let's say we forget it and go back to the Pearl either 1. not existing at all (what you saw depicted in art was the Heart) 2. an Attra that the dragon can create 3. some other mystical thing that the dragons are chasing (Dreamtide stuff that allows them to become enlihtened and true old dragons or something?)

I'd definitely prefer an improvement over the current pearl rules which suffer from the same issues Satchel mentioned: trying to sound bad science-y (it talks about "genetic instability" - no, CJC, that's not how genetics work ) and inelegant details (Durability 5 - same as with Hearts -, +1 month resurrection time -why? - etc.)

Vree

Exploding Frogs wrote: CJC wrote: Willpower is the focal trait of this template (like Physical is for Werewolf and Health is for Geist) so we play with its established mechanics.

Um. No. No it is not.

Willpower does not play a central role for Dragons any more than other splats, especially once you strip out the pointless Willpower-as-health mechanics. Which you are probably going to do at some point in the rewrite, because GMC's Conditions and Social Maneuvering does a much better job of modeling social, mental, and emotional conflict, and it seems rather wasteful to do such an extensive rewrite without updating to GMC rules while you're at it.

You may have intended for Willpower to play a central role, and used this intention to justify playing around with the mechanics, but that's not how the splat turned out. At least that's how it looks from where I'm standing.

@Frogs is right on the money, here, unfortunately. There is room for emphasizing Willpower more, though. Maybe it could be a fuel stat or an alternate fuel stat for Edicts. (Maybe THAT's the reaon why Edicts are so powerful.) Maybe it will have a significance during Dreamtide travels. (see Astral travel/battle in Mage which is also WP based. though Mage did not mess around with WP damage other than simple WP loss.)

Exploding Frogs wrote: I actually think that your current framework for Edicts and Laws is a great start. It's just the specific powers within that framework that could use rewriting. Needs a more primal, elemental feel, and a system for combining Laws to create more complex effects. And maybe different dice pools that downplay Skills--Attribute+Furnace? Or this might be a good place to put that mechanical emphasis on Willpower you said you were going for--Attribute+Furnace+Willpower? (If you take this route, should that be temporary or permanent Willpower?)

+++++1 this. Some of this repeats what I already said. I like the concept of 3 laws a lot, it's just that the actual powers fall short of what they advertised.

When you make Laws, you should take Mage as the example. Most of the low level powers appear pretty sh*tty - you get stuff like "slightly accelerate the movement of an object" or "increase the intensity of an existing fire". But when you think about it, the reason for this is to allow for maximum enjoyment. It does not make for a good story if you give starting players nukes right off the bat. And even small stuff like this can offer a lot of options to the creative player.

Similarly, when you look at the powers in say, Vampire, you see that they come with a lot of catches and drawbacks, and you don't get the actual good stuff until about rank 2-3. And the real big powers, even if they seem pretty basic like possessing someone or creating a thunderstorm do not appear until 4-5.

Laws should be the same. When you think of a law, you should ask yourself about the limitations and difficulties a character may have while activating them - because that is all good storytelling meat.

Throwing fireballs or hijacking someone's brain, snap, is not a big adventure. Holding a public speech hoping to mesmerize your foe in the audience, but he just won't at you because he's busy talking to his gf but your plan requires that he looks at you when you pronounce the Law that will lure him into your trap - good conflict!

Let's go back to the "Assembly" Edict since I'm already talking about it. THere's actually a core of something good in here, if only it worked like this:

Law 1: Force a crowd of onlookers to all pay attention to you for a turn. Law 2: Create a change of opinion for the duration of the scene in everyone who's looking at you. (Composure + sn. advantage to resist) Law 3: Render a person socially invisible.

All of these have a use on their own, but their power grows if you can use 2 or all 3.

A creative player can use each of these individually for great benefit, too, like hijacking attention from a rival performer/speaker, or by muffling the influence of other attention leaders in the crowd.

Eg. Law 2: "Are you suggesting" Professor Alford leaned forward, barely even hiding the mockery in his voice. "that the university take this completely unscientific request seriously? Financing an excavation for..." he glanced at the blackboard. " "dragon bones preserved in the lower Paleozoic layers? Young man, I'm warning you that you are talking to the faculty of the Department Of Geology."

The bright young speaker at the blackboard did not even budge. He maintained the same wide smile as before as he turned to the assembled professors in the front row. "I apologize if my request appears to be a bit on the excessive side. However, I'm sure Professor Donahue agrees with me that the merits of such an investigation would be a considerable benefit to the university?"

The heads turned to the elderly figure in the front row. He appeared to be half sleeping. He didn't even open his eyes as he said: "Most certainly. This young man is exactly right."

There were gasps from the audience. Professor Donahue was known to rarely give his approval on any student project, and now he has publicly given his support to an insane plan like this? Some were so surprised that Dr. Howard, who has known him for 20 years leaned closer and asked him: "Clive, are you feeling alright?"

The student at the blackboard looked smiling at the frizen faces and cheerfully turned back to the board. "Well then, should we continue?"

Okay, it's not Shakespeare, but that's the sort of carefully played advantage that a single Law should be about.

CJC

Vree wrote: (it talks about "genetic instability" - no, CJC, that's not how genetics work ) and inelegant details (Durability 5 - same as with Hearts -, +1 month resurrection time -why? - etc.)

Actually, it is. That's where baby tumors come from. I was portraying the Red Pearl as a tumor in the brain, generated by the instability of having genetics altered by the Heart. In real life, any viral infection you could imagine injects genetic material into a cell, forcing that cell to produce copies of the virus instead of its normal proteins. When the cell dies, the viral copies are released back into the body, spreading the infection. IF it were possible for shapeshifting to actually occur in real life, it would be through this means of viral infection. The genetic code would be altered to match the 'target' species, and subsequent mitotic splits of the cell would gradually move towards the target function (picture half life decay of radioactive materials: the first split results in a cell that is halfway between the origin and the target, then the next creates a cell that is three-quarters of the way to the target, and so on ad infinitum). BUT! The body's immune system would identify this altered cell as an invasive specimen, attacking it immediately and resulting in an auto-immune disorder (we're actually seeing this in modern medicine with post-vaccine syndromes, as well as in certain kinds of cancer where radiation has damaged the genetic code of a certain patch of cells). Even if it didn't get bombarded, the intermediate cell would not be able to perform its intended function properly and would probably spark the growth of a tumor, or infect the body with a retro virus from the donor specimen. Finally, since most forms of life share nearly all of their genetic blueprint, this alteration would have virtually no visible effect on the body.

But that's boring, especially in science fiction. So writers alter the way genetics actually work, just like they alter the function of lightning, radiation, and any other science to fit their purpose.

It seems to be a consensus, though, that science should be removed from the picture for the template, so none of this matters anyway.

Gravitas Man wrote: Alternative idea. The Pearl is merely the most valuable item in a Dragon's hoard. It is a purely symbolic name, the actual object can be anything, even a Maiden. What makes it more than just an asset and a Pearl, is the Dragon's connection to it. By consuming his Pearl a Dragon can fully recharge his Breath to the maximum and possibly heal some of his health. A Dragon with a Pearl is thus able to fight longer and be more dangerous. However another Dragon may find and consume that Pearl for the same benefit, however this opposing Dragon must first discover what the Pearl is. If the Pearl is a Maiden, consuming need not mean killing. It could be a symbolic severing of the connection between Dragon and Maiden. The Maiden would be released from captivity would be sufficient.

The Pearl should be important, but I don't think it should be as important as the Heart. Something that can empower a Dragon if they have it, and stealing one should be tricky but losing one should not be life-destroying on its own. It would defintely be a major blow to the pride of the Dragon to lose such a valuable item though.

Welcome to the discussion Gravitas. I really like the idea that the Pearl is the Oroboros' prized possession. It probably doesn't even need a mechanical effect; it could just be the most important portion of the Hoard (since all dragons will have hoards after the rewrite). Natural pearls are worth quite a considerable amount of money, so it sounds like a good fit. I like Vree's suggestion that the Heart is the 'pearl' depicted in dragon artwork, perhaps confused with this treasured pearl that an Oroboros keeps in her collection.

Vree wrote: You are absolutely correct - preserving the horror element is important.

In many ways it is pretty clear that the mythological pearls IS the Heart - it serves the same functions.

So OUR true Xiao Sheng/Flaming Pearl tale may go like this:

Xiao Sheng, a young grass harvester comes upon a field where the grass is lush and plenty, and he can hear a faint thumping sound from under the earth. He digs up the grass and finds a disembodied heart, bloody and still inexplicably beating. He puts the Heart in a jar, but he keeps losing sleep over the mystery. He finds that if he puts coins in the same jar as the Heart, it causes them to multiply. He tries washing his face in the blood from the heart too, and finds that it makes him younger. When people find out his secret and come asking about the heart, out of fear that it will get taken from him, Xiao Sheng swallows it. His insides start burning up, he feels unquenchable thirst, and he is transformed into a dragon.

Maybe that could even be put in the book? :D "Changeling" is full of "improved" and "truer" stories like this one.

--- One detail/idea here is that the Heart may be the true Attra. Other "attras", lucky objects may exist, but they are just a tradition inspired by the heart's very real abilities. That certainly expands the options for a human who has the Heart, and helps to explain why they may attempt to swallow it. (Though these "good fortune" rituals are also probably sufficinently gruesome, forcing you to soak stuff in blood and such to bring about good luck.) Maybe.

Yeah, that's definitely going in the book. I love these improved history stories. Making the Heart the actual Attra would actually be a lot of fun. It naturally accumulates wealth, but that wealth might have strings attached (such as a brick of clear-cut Nicaraguan cocaine which mysteriously disappeared from the Cartel's shipment, only to show up in an Oroboros' apartment, or that thirty-thousand dollars from that bank heist that somehow ended up in her post-office box). Seems like a good source of conflict, actually, especially for True Hearts when the wealth finds them in the middle of a dinner party.

Vree

DukeGod wrote: Everyone here may have noticed, but just in case, the game I promised to run has gained it's own thread which can be found through this elegantly crafted link

If it doesn't start, I wonder if you'd be willing to write up the section on European advantures as a part of the Storytelling chapter...I think it would greatly benefit from it.

IDEADUMP TIME I'll just try dumping some of the stuff I have lying around in notes in an attempt to control them.

1st attempt at a Dreamtide (this is how I always wanted them to look like):

THE ASTRAL

Mages perceive three layers of the soul. The Oneiros, which is a unique reflection of every person's mind, the Temenos, a reflection of the minds of all mankind, and the Anima Mundi, which is a reflection of ideal forms and essences of the natural world.

This is not how the Astral appear to dragons at all though, which is like this:

The Astral is a realm of thought. The Mages, conceited as they are, treat it as a realm of human thought; not realizing that what they see or do not see is cluded by their own soul's perception.

Dragons, instead, perceive the Astral as a realm of every thinking being on Earth, human or not human. Close to the surface, where it is nearest to the material world, the astral is very humane, and feels as if you were walking through a regular mortal dream. As you go deeper, the facade of normalcy is stripped away, and the basic urges and motivations of mortals are revealed. You also begin to perceive the thought processes of animals, focused crazy world filled with constant danger, faceless menaces in the darkness dreamed by prey animals, the sun-dreams of lizards and a world turned upside-down and expanding in all directions as seen by fishes and sea animals. The deeper you go, the more primitive and ancient the thoughts; even ideas like basic geometrical shapes and object permanence (the size and place of things staying the same) begin to fall apart. Finally, at the edges, you reach the shore of thought, a great big sea: the thoughts and dreams of sea worms and jellyfishes, the very first thinking creatures in the world. The sea is frill with danger, but they say that at the bottom of it is the Pink Void: an endless space with only the occassional flicker of thought floating through it, thought in its purest form. Nothing can pass this great void; it is said that at the beginning of time the True Dragons flew through the void from the supernatural realms beyond, with their large ethereal wings made directly for navigating the astral. But it is a feat no dragon today is capable of.

It is possible that the astral takes on a different form to any intelligent being (different minds, different astral), and both dragons' and mages' views are false or only part true.

Deep Ones:

Deep Ones are poorly understood. They may be abyssal creatures, memories of the first intelligent beings before life today even existed, or collective entities formed from thought-fragments, or astral beings who gained power from existing for so long, or maybe thieves who hijacked those thoughts and forms; maybe all of the above. They reside within the deepest layers of thought, between the bottom of the sea and the void.

It is said that Deep Ones are too primal to even have a permanent astral form; their usual shapes are simply what they can take from the edges of the realm of thought that they forever try to enter.

(Do a Google search for "Cambrian life" http://th09.deviantart.n...o_the_thief-d3dgyue.png they contain great ideas about what a Deep One may look like.)

Features:

Deep Ones possess decentralized biological systems. Instead, the cells that they use for thinking, sensing etc. are spread over their entire bodies. Thus, it is either impossible to hit a Deep One in a sensitive spot or very easy, depending on your interpretation. A Deep One only takes Bashing damage from firearms, and attacks against them are capped (you can only deal 1 damage (of any type) with the same attack). However, any attack agains a Deep One is automatically upgraded to an attack against eyes or limbs (as if it was made at a -5 penalty).

In the astral realms, they also never take more than 1 Willpower damage at a time.

Materialization:

Deep Ones collect emotions and body parts from living beings. The more of these a Deep One collects, the deeper it can head into the astral. Once they have collected all total 10 organs, they are able to reach the shore of consciousness and enter thematerial realm.

METHODS FOR REGAINING BREATH:

- Hoards:

A dragon who has a sizeable Hoard and sleeps in its immediate victinity regains a number of Breath points equal to the Hoard's rating as she wakes every morning.

[Note here: Dragons were guardians of treasures, the fact that they would be occassionally sleeping while guarding them too is more of a storytelling neccessity. However, I have no idea how dragons could playably be guarding treasure and go on adventures at the same time.]

- Maidens:

A Dragon who owns a Maiden may interact with him for the duration of a scene to immediately regain 1-3 Breath depending on her dots in the Maiden merit. She may do this once per day.

- Inspiring fear, awe and respect:

The dragon performs an action that clearly demonstrates his status as an exceptional being, and draws a point of Breath for every mortal onlooker who was successfully awed.

Having a high level Province (usually expressed through the Fame and Status merits) improves the ease of assembling and impressing crowds.

Examples of actions that can be used to awe mortals:

- If the dragons performs any action with an Exceptional Success. - Winning a contested action against somebody else. - Winning a fight by either making a mortal give up and flee/submit, or by marking a wound in one of the opponent's last 3 Health boxes (the type of damage does not matter).

Social skills like Expression, Intimidate, Socialize or Persuasion are effective methods for these displays, but a dragon is not limited to them. Any knowledge, ability or talent that the dragon can display to the extent where they clearly demonstrate the dragon's superiority suffices.

Some people are more impressionable than others. Use an onlooker's Composure as a measure. [mechanics for rolling for crowds?]

- Inspiring terror:

Hydrae, Devourers and other mockeries of Dragonkind have an additional method for regaining Breath. The Dragon must terrify a mortal so thoroughly that she destroys a point of Willpower. Then the Dragon regains an extra point of Breath, even if the Dragon already drew Breath from that subject that day. Doing so is a sin against Mandate 5 (torture), but of course, most mockeries do not have to worry about that.

Actions that may qualify someone for this extra Breath:

- Beating someone senseless or delivering a life threatening wound (all their Health boxes are filled with Bashing or Lethal wounds). - Forcing someone into doing something that violates their current Morality. - Harming someone's loved ones. - Publicly shaming someone in front of people he cares about.

- Optional: Breath through inaction? Provinces it may[?] be possible to passively gain Breath from a sufficiently high level Province.

This requires two things; one, the Dragon must clearly establish himself as the guy in charge (the citizens int he Province must know her fae and her role), second, he must ensure the smooth operation of some function int he Province. (Delivery of mail, economic situation, law enforcement, juidicary, politics, etc.]

The mortals in the Province who are aware that they are under the Dragon's protection (whatever that means) passively generate a small amount of Breath.

The Dragon regains a point of Breath per size of the Province (1-5).

Maintaining Breath this way requires constant work; if things start going bad in the Province, the Dragon may quickly lose the public's favor. ---

TRUE DRAGONS:

The Dominion, the time when True Dragons had any kind of say in this world’s course of events is long over. The dragons themselves, however, remain - in the far-off pockets of the Dreamtide and domains outside Man’s reach. It is exceedingly real for a dragon to appear int he material realm (once every couple of decades at best), but it does happen.

These dragons are different from the Old Dragons of legend. First, they are usually have no interest in this world, and usually only pass through it en route to some other occult dimension. Second, they are more "feral" - few bother to learn human behavior or language, and worry themselves little about collateral damage, and just by their very presence, they risk ripping this reality apart. A True Dragon can be a frightening adversary - the best the players can usually do is figure out what it wants and help it get it so that it can move on as soon as possible.

True Dragons are gigantic. Even the smallest among them is at least the size of a small house, but others are as tall as mountains.

Because they are beings from outside this world, Dragons naturally "leak" magical energy. A similar logic as in the case of the Oroboroi Breath requirement is at work here; Dragons must spend energy to maintain their physical bodies. When one looks at a True Dragon, one often will notice that sometimes they seem part transparent; a sign that the Dragon is not quite „really” there, in a sense, and MAKES herself real. Old Dragons side stepped this by creating physical bodies for themselves, but other True Dragons usually do not waste energy on such temporary luxuries.

True Dragons have an additional method for regaining Breath, however. When the dragon is low on energy (Breath), they perform an activity known as "spiral dancing". The dragon moves in circles in the air, forming a helix shape in flight with her body turning full circle, somewhat reminiscent of the revered Uroboros symbol. In doing so, the True Dragon creates a direct link to the Dreamtide, a breach int he Miasma between the lower realms and the astral. All True Dragons do this regularly and instinctively.

Fort the True Dragon, this is simply a matter of self sustenance: the rip in reality sucks down an amount of energy that turns into Breath (usually around 5-10 points) they use to recharge themselves with. Fort the denizens of this world, the action is much more tragic, as it weakens the borders between this world and others. A realm where a True Dragon remained for a long time becomes a place called a Nexus, a link between this world and others. The link exists on both sides, possibly allowing other spiritual creatures (ghosts, spirits, Abyssal monsters or Deep Ones) to make their way into this world.

For Oroboroi, though, there is a benefit. While in the victinity of a Nexus, the Dragon gains a bonus on rolls for: - entering the Dreamtide - regaining Breath from mortals - invoking Edicts

True Dragon stats:

All True Dragons have a Mandate rating of 10. Mandate isn’t just something they have picked up; it is part of their very nature. Therefore, it is entirely possible that a mortal may trap a True Dragon or even win its Heart, simply by exploting the loopholes the dragon’s sense of honor offers; repeating the process that caused the demise of the Old Dragons in the first place.

Attributes: 3-8 (3-4 in weaker ones, 5+ in strong ones) Skills: varies; dragons usually have very high levels in physical and mental skills, as these aare universal and not exclusive to this world (4-5 dots), but lack social skills, and not being familiar with this world may lower their other skills by 1-2 dots as well. They learn VERY fast, however. Once humans managed to get a true dragon’s interest, the dragon will rapidly learn every social trick avaliable. Many dragons also pick up interest in Animal Ken or Expression. Edicts: True Dragons use Edicts without speech. Most would have at least 10+ points in Edicts, focusing on the ones that best embody their nature. Ablutions: Treat True Dragons as if they were always staying in their True Form. (Which is their only form.) They can not disband Ablutions. Most True Dragons will have at least 25-30 points invested in Ablutions. They are always at their highest Degree Of Divinity. (Taking on a mortal form, or even those of other animals is a trick that can, in fact, be learned by True Dragons, but it takes time and some creativity. If a True Dragon knows how to do it, it works the same way as for regular Oroboroi.)

Nexuses: [<- random, might suck]

A Nexus a piece of the astral (or the lower depths) brought down into this world, made real. Spirits and ghost are able to make themselves fully corporeal within its borders. A nexus also blurs the difference between dreams and reality. Fantastic creatures of legend or archetypal people (like folk heroes) that exists int he astral are the things that can be lifted from the mind of a single mortal within a Nexus and made real. Nexuses feed on humanity’s collective consciousness, and so they do not contain anything specific to one person; the person’s mind only serves as an entree point to a collective mind. These creatures though are still astral beings, and to exist outside a Nexus, they need supernatural energy (Breath or other equivalent) to keep on existing.

---

CREATION MYTH (Optional; stolen from Hindu mythology + Orphic egg myths) <- also huge dump of mixed ideas, I hate half of them lol

Once upon a time there was a tiny egg, tinier even than the head of a pin. It had no mother and no father; the egg was its own mother and father. It had no time and no place; the egg itself was the entireity of time and space. There was no world outside the egg; the egg itself contained the world, and the world inside the egg contained the egg itself.

For an eternity, the tiny egg just rested there silently, until eventually, something inside it began to stir with potential. The force that was inside the egg began to create shapes and pattern, and in doing it created its own self as well. It was a tiny worm that was all life itself. While the egg slept, the worm inside it worked, and the world it created within the egg became the Dream.

Eventually, the tiny worm that came alive inside the egg became dissatisfied. It wanted to wake up from the Dream. The egg realized that to awaken itself from the Dream, it would first have to separate itself from the Dream.

When this happened, the egg split itself, the world, in half. At that moment the world was separated into two opposite sides: the heavenly realm and the material realm. Along with the to egg halves, everything else within the Dream was also split into two sides: Woman was separated from Man, the Earth was separated from the Sky, Good was separated from Evil, and Life was separated from Death.

The tiny worm that was struggling inside now emerged from the egg; in waking from the Dream, it came to know itself. It was no longer bound, it could live or die as it pleased. It became the first dragon, and continued to create many others like itself.

TERMINOLOGY:

The Dream: Another word for this world, and all that it includes. The Astral/Spiritual is also part of the Dream, and so it is something which traps the person’s destiny and soul.

Awakening: Leaving the Dream. It is interpreted in different ways: the true destruction of a person’s soul and every trace of influence their existence left behind in the world (the Ash Philosophy interpretation – this is seen as a positive thing, as it frees the person from desires and responsibility); immortality; or spiritual enlightement. It is also what can make the person a True Dragon. An awakened consciousness can traverse the material and the spiritual and possibly even places beyond.

True Dragon: An enlightened being that exists outside this universe. True Dragon may enter the Dream for a variety of purposes, but the most common among them is to breed.

Breeding/Dragon Eggs: When a True Dragon wants to create another of herself, they first enter the Dream, and fetch a physical component or essence from the lower/physical realms known as the Demon Seed. They then instil this with a spiritual component of their own power. This creates an object of great value, a dragon egg. The Egg remains in this world until it is ready to hatch.

The Miasma/The Abyss: The crack in the Cosmis Egg that separates its two halves, the material and the immaterial realm.

Realms Invisible: Different regions within the Eggshells. There is some debate over whether the physical and the astral realms as humans know them are simply one among many of these realms, or if they are anterooms of sorts that one must pass through before proceeding to the other realms. Oroboros rarely know about these realms or only in theory, as they have no way of perceiving them. Most identify them with the Five Heavens and Five Hells.

Five Heavens and Five Hells: Places in the material and the spiritual realms that the soul is said to go to upon dying rumored in Oroboros lore.

Hun and Po: The claim that every person’s life is made up from a material (Po) and spiritual (Hun) component. When the person dies, the Hun goes to one of the Five Heavens while the Po goes to one of the Five Hells.

Lower Depths/Astral:

- When you are in the Astral realms, Willpower "heals" naturally over time. This is what happens to every mortal, in fact; when they are asleep or onconscious, their soul rises closer to the astral to recharge. (the daily 1 Willpower recharge from sleep is in fact gained this way) THE PINK VOID (another different view on the astral): The blind, deaf, featureless souls of sleeping can be seen floating and gathering at the bottom of astral space. While mortals don't notice, things that affect their soul in the astral affect the person as well. This view of the astral looks like an endless colorful void. Here you can find the following things: - the planets: well, not the planets themselves, buit rather an idealized version of each one. Saturn, for example, is a large yellow ball, about a thousand yards in diameter and it does not have its own gravity. The astral bodies of sleeping people who have the planet as their ascendant constantly gather around it. - the elements: in their purest forms, for example, perfectly circular balls of "fire" containing the purest plasma; not so much real fire as rather the "idea" of fire. - sleepers: Sleeping astral souls are usually harmless, but a benevolent dragon may need to protect them from harm, as they do not see or hear and astral beings can easily prey on them. Things that happen in the astral realm have relatively light consequences, but may still affect the person's mental health and fate. For example, an astral lion bites your arm off, you may have a terrible day where you drop everything. If you get eaten, your body will have lost all its Willpower when it wakes up in the morning. Astral bodies reform easily though, so there are rarely serious after effects. It is a bigger problem when astral beings use the astral soul to enter the material realm and ravage the person' mind from the inside there or even possess their body. Dragons may also use the astral to enter a person's body (treat them as ghosts with Numina in this form), albeit this is considered a sin. - lucid dreamers/awakened: Thorugh practice or sheer talent, some people may remain conscious about their visit of the astral realm in dreams. This can have beneficial, but also serious consequences: for example, a soul who touches an "element of fire" while lucid dreaming may wake up ewith pyrokinetic powers. (Treat these people as if they had a dot in an Edict.)

The Lower Depths:

The Lower Depths (whatever they may be) are the opposite of the astral realm; rather than recharging the body with power, they drain it. The truly scary thing is that if you get completely drained of Willpower, Health and Breath while in the lower realms, you get trapped there.

Soul weight:

The ancients observed very early on that matter had diffferent states of being: when water evaporated, and became a gas, it started to rise towards the sky; when it froze solid, it started to drop or sink. This is not an entirely accurate description, but it is close enough to how souls actually work.

All beings are composed of three forms of energy, and each of them ties them to a different sphere of existence.

Shen - Willpower Qi - Health (or Structure), Breath/Essence/(or other supernatural advantage) Jing

Jing is perhaps the most curious. It is also called the "demon seed", the "heavy" component of the soul. Jing is never recharged within your lifetime, and when it runs out, the person dies. Qi is the energy of vitality and life. Ghosts and spirits do not have natural Qi and need it to be able to stay animate and also to connect to this realm. Shen is spiritual essence, born from a person's consciousness and understanding of itself.

It is said that a person has the ability to "eject" these souls separately and use them to visit other realms; ejecting the Qi soul is what gives you a "twilight body". When you die, the Shen soul ascends to the heavens, the Jing soul falls to hell, while the Qi soul remains in the world and resides in the person's memorial or grave (what most people know as "ghosts"). Dragons have no philosophical issues with the fact that a person may be in Hell and simultaneouls,y a spirit walking the Earth; those are completely different souls for them.

To rise to the astral, the person must shed something - the physical body - so that he can become "lighter". Conversely, to enter the Lower Depths, you must acquire something, some extra weight to make your body heavier.

It is said that all of the material and lower realms have their own brand of Jing energy. When one enters these, they are added as extra baggage to the body. You also enter these realms along with your physical body (unlike the supernal realms where you only travel in spirit).

One view is that each realm has its own variety of the three energies, infused with the nature of that realm: Sekhem, Glamour (Arcadia), Pyros (Solstice), Plasm (Underworld), Essence (Shadow)

(Mana is astral energy (Shen), Vitaae and Breath are (corrupted?) forms of Qi energy.)

To enter these realms, some of this energy is added to your body as additional weight. If you try to return from these realms, one immediate problem is that you have to shed the extra baggage. Many people who manage it describe the process as a feeling of their soul getting stripped away, and that is actually what happens. It is impossible to clearly separate the "Jing" body from the other souls once they are intrermingled, so what happens is that some of the person's soul and body is stripped away to decrease their weight, and the person takes back with them some of the essence of that realm.

(...and that is where Changelings and Werewolves come from :p)

DUMP END

Swayambhu & True Dragons: The first dragon born from the world-egg; s/he (along with her children/kin) was freed from this world (the Dream), a state similar to Ascension. Swayambhu will return at the end of time and swallow the world so that the universe can return to its egg state. equal in rank to: Luna & other highest ranking spirits Ascended Mages Kerberoi True Fae

Old Dragons: Astral/Material beings, under the gods in rank, who sometimes use them as servants. ("Gods" can mean any high ranking being from the above list.) Were driven to extinction in the material realm by the Oroboroi.

Oroboroi: Hybrid/Chimera beings with the Heart of a dragon and the body of a man. They are able to use many of the dragons' powers, but it takes a toll on their body. Their soul (being only human) also lacks the capacity for fully realizing Edicts or astral travel.

-- I'd really like to milk that last bit for horror potential. Oroboroi are not dragons; they are an attempt to hybridize the two creatures. However, their human body isn't really suited for this kind of power, which both means that they can rarely live up to their full potential and that they suffer all sorts of horrific side effects.

They have nothing to do with true dragons and how they are normally born. (That does not exlude the chance of an Oroboros awakening as a true dragon, but it is a huge achevement.

For example, there might be an organization out there implanting Oroboroi Hearts into mortals...(Anyone here reading "Claymore"?)

Clarification on each of these ideas: Cosmic egg myth: I lifted this one very nearly straight from Hindu mythology, but there are similar stories all over the world.

I did not axe it (like the other myths I collected) because: - because the egg + snake symbol is almost as old & important as the tail-eating serpent, and I was curious if I could slip it in. - because it allows to explain away the Mage world view (two worlds with many smaller realms on each side, the exact numbers are actually unimportant), without having to invoke the same story as Mage did. - because it allowed me to add a character type like Exarch or Kerberoi: mythical world shakers who nevertheless will never mess with the plot.

2 souls/3 souls/three jewels of Chinese medicine: I basically raped Eastern tradition here. "Shen, Qi and Jing" have little to do with their namesakes, but I could not think of better names.

Spiral dancing: Again, couldn't think of a better name. It coincides with the name of a neopagan rite and an oWoD werewolf tribe.

Five Heavens/Hells: They are "five" because it is WoD's "magical number"; in no way are they meant to imply the "mirror supernal realms".

(Nexuses: GAH WHY DID I ADD THESE I HATE THEM anyway I always had this drive to explain Atlantis in some way + perhaps draw a parallel between Demesnes+Soul Stones and Pearls/Hearts. I definitely do not intend to add another Locus-type phenomenon, and I hate how this turned out, I'd prefer to do this much more subtly, if at all.)

Exploding Frogs

Vree wrote:

IDEADUMP TIME I'll just try dumping some of the stuff I have lying around in notes in an attempt to control them.

I love these ideas; they are exactly the tonal paradigm shift I think the game needed.

Vree wrote:

1st attempt at a Dreamtide (this is how I always wanted them to look like):

THE ASTRAL

Mages perceive three layers of the soul. The Oneiros, which is a unique reflection of every person's mind, the Temenos, a reflection of the minds of all mankind, and the Anima Mundi, which is a reflection of ideal forms and essences of the natural world.

This is not how the Astral appear to dragons at all though, which is like this:

The Astral is a realm of thought. The Mages, conceited as they are, treat it as a realm of human thought; not realizing that what they see or do not see is cluded by their own soul's perception.

It would probably be better to refrain from directly comparing the Mage view of the Astral with the Dragon view. Changeling doesn't compare Oneiromancy to Mage-style Astral travel, after all. Also, try to avoid the sort of condescending "those silly Mages don't have any idea how little they really know" language except when writing from the perspective of a character who actually feels that way--a third person omniscient overview of the cosmology is not the appropriate place for it.

Vree wrote: Dragons, instead, perceive the Astral as a realm of every thinking being on Earth, human or not human. Close to the surface, where it is nearest to the material world, the astral is very humane, and feels as if you were walking through a regular mortal dream. As you go deeper, the facade of normalcy is stripped away, and the basic urges and motivations of mortals are revealed. You also begin to perceive the thought processes of animals, focused crazy world filled with constant danger, faceless menaces in the darkness dreamed by prey animals, the sun-dreams of lizards and a world turned upside-down and expanding in all directions as seen by fishes and sea animals. The deeper you go, the more primitive and ancient the thoughts; even ideas like basic geometrical shapes and object permanence (the size and place of things staying the same) begin to fall apart. Finally, at the edges, you reach the shore of thought, a great big sea: the thoughts and dreams of sea worms and jellyfishes, the very first thinking creatures in the world.

Very evocative, but I have a suggestion: Rather than the Dreamtide becoming more primitive and primal as you go deeper, have you considered it becoming more universal, less specific to the individual, more archetypal? In the shallows, it's just your own astral space, and then as you go deeper, the dreams and feelings and thoughts and instincts of other people, plants, and animals start bleeding in, as you describe above. But that's still in the relative shallows. As you get into the mid- and deep Dreamtide, you start encountering symbols and archetypes more often than the products of any individual life- form, and in the deepest reaches, you perceive the dreams of cities and mountains and continents, even the world itself, and the line between the symbol or archetype of a thing and the thing itself is increasingly blurred.

Maybe ditch the aquatic imagery? Come up with a name other than the Dreamtide? I mean, considering that it's a realm of the world's dreams and archetypes (and possibly souls?) blurring together, there's no particular reason for aquatic symbols to predominate over other dream images and concepts. And the whole "gateway to the Supernal" thing feels, to me, more like rising up than diving down.

Vree wrote: The sea is frill with danger, but they say that at the bottom of it is the Pink Void: an endless space with only the occassional flicker of thought floating through it, thought in its purest form. Nothing can pass this great void; it is said that at the beginning of time the True Dragons flew through the void from the supernatural realms beyond, with their large ethereal wings made directly for navigating the astral. But it is a feat no dragon today is capable of.

It is possible that the astral takes on a different form to any intelligent being (different minds, different astral), and both dragons' and mages' views are false or only part true.

This is a disappointingly generic description, especially in comparison to the evocative ideas from before. Try looking at Astral Realms in the Mage line, particularly its descriptions of the Anima Mundi, the Ocean Ouroboros, and the citadels of the Aeons (not to mention the Aeons themselves). Dragons really ought to have some equivalent to that, with the style, tone, and symbolism shifted toward the Dreamtide's themes. How does the boundary between the Astral and the Supernal manifest? Does the Abyss cut Oroboroi off from the Supernal? If so, how do they perceive it? If not, what prevents them from going beyond the furthest edges of the Dreamtide? Can Oroboroi perceive the Supernal from the Dreamtide, and if so, what does it look like to them? (Also, "Pink Void"? Seriously?)

Again, try to avoid comparing different splats' perception of dream-spaces, at least outside of sidebars. Treat it like Mage and Changeling treat the Arcadia question.

Vree wrote:

Deep Ones:

Don't like this. I honestly don't think that we need to have Deep Ones at all; they feel unnecessarily tacked on. Even the bit in the Dragon backstory about a Deep One starting the whole heart-removal thing is easily dropped; it's easy enough to just say that removing their Hearts is something that Dragons can just do. The only purpose Deep ones serve in the setting, as far as I can tell, is to explain something that no one would question if it were left unexplained.

Vree wrote:

METHODS FOR REGAINING BREATH:

Loving this. I especially like the ideas on recovering Breath passively by maintaining one's Province.

Maybe, rather than expressing a well-developed Province through Fame and Status, the relationship a Dragon has to their Province is a Merit in its own right, or perhaps a system trait? This would cover a variety of things, like how big the Province is, what it will and won't do on your orders, how good it is at carrying out those orders, how fast it gets things done, how much you recover through it passively, how easy it is to recover Breath through it actively, and how frequently you can recover Breath through your Province. Look at the Cult merit from Mummy: the Curse for inspiration on how this might work, or for that matter the Cult merit from Leviathan: the Tempest.

I would suggest that inspiring terror be something any Dragon can do, not just Hydras and Devourers and the like. It should also be quicker and easier than inspiring awe. That way, it's a constant temptation to stray from being a good ruler for a quick power-up, and succumbing to this temptation might well be the reason some Dragons become Hydras in the first place.

Also, GMC rules don't have a standardized "hierarchy of sins"; instead, players define what their character's personal breaking points are via a series of questions. This may be something to keep in mind for when we update Dragon's rules to GMC. (Although "morality" stats seem to be more unique and personalized to each splat under GMC rules from what's been revealed of Blood and Smoke and Demon: the Descent, so maybe an hierarchy of sins can still work, if that suits Dragon's themes better?)

Vree wrote:

TRUE DRAGONS:

The Dominion, the time when True Dragons had any kind of say in this world’s course of events is long over. The dragons themselves, however, remain - in the far-off pockets of the Dreamtide and domains outside Man’s reach. It is exceedingly real for a dragon to appear int he material realm (once every couple of decades at best), but it does happen.

These dragons are different from the Old Dragons of legend. First, they are usually have no interest in this world, and usually only pass through it en route to some other occult dimension. Second, they are more "feral" - few bother to learn human behavior or language, and worry themselves little about collateral damage, and just by their very presence, they risk ripping this reality apart. A True Dragon can be a frightening adversary - the best the players can usually do is figure out what it wants and help it get it so that it can move on as soon as possible.

True Dragons are gigantic. Even the smallest among them is at least the size of a small house, but others are as tall as mountains.

So far, I'm liking what I'm seeing. This is everything I'd imagined the True Dragons to be.

Although I'm a bit confused on the distinction between True Dragons and Old Dragons. I seem to recall you suggesting multiple Collapses, with the second being the overthrow of the first generation of Oroboroi. Is that what you're talking about here--the True Dragons are the original dragons, and the Old Dragons are the first generation of usurpers?

Also, I suspect that "alien" might be a better word than "feral"--I'm getting the impression that you want to convey that True Dragons are extremely intelligent, but don't think like humans or react to things in a human way, and act on mysterious instincts. Strange, unknowable, inhuman, "other". "Feral" suggests something with the intellect and worldview of an animal-- survival-oriented, eat-sleep-mate, little to no ability to plan for the future or imagine a better lot in life.

Vree wrote: Because they are beings from outside this world, Dragons naturally "leak" magical energy. A similar logic as in the case of the Oroboroi Breath requirement is at work here; Dragons must spend energy to maintain their physical bodies. When one looks at a True Dragon, one often will notice that sometimes they seem part transparent; a sign that the Dragon is not quite „really” there, in a sense, and MAKES herself real. Old Dragons side stepped this by creating physical bodies for themselves, but other True Dragons usually do not waste energy on such temporary luxuries.

I don't really like this, though. In Mage, when Supernal things come to the Fallen world, they don't have that transparent, not-quite-there effect. They're exactly as solid and real as anything else. Perhaps more so--an aesthetic I like to borrow from theYoung Wizards series by Diane Duane is the concept things from "higher" realms of existence not glowing numinously or being ghostly or transparent, but rather being more solid, more there, more real, than anything else around them. So much so that ordinary reality seems crude and incomplete and fragile by comparison--like a crude, smudgy drawing held up next to the real thing.

The Breath requirement is cool, it's just the visual effect I disagree with. wrote: True Dragons have an additional method for regaining Breath, however. When the dragon is low on energy (Breath), they perform an activity known as "spiral dancing". The dragon moves in circles in the air, forming a helix shape in flight with her body turning full circle, somewhat reminiscent of the revered Uroboros symbol. In doing so, the True Dragon creates a direct link to the Dreamtide, a breach int he Miasma between the lower realms and the astral. All True Dragons do this regularly and instinctively.

Fort the True Dragon, this is simply a matter of self sustenance: the rip in reality sucks down an amount of energy that turns into Breath (usually around 5-10 points) they use to recharge themselves with. Fort the denizens of this world, the action is much more tragic, as it weakens the borders between this world and others. A realm where a True Dragon remained for a long time becomes a place called a Nexus, a link between this world and others. The link exists on both sides, possibly allowing other spiritual creatures (ghosts, spirits, Abyssal monsters or Deep Ones) to make their way into this world.

For Oroboroi, though, there is a benefit. While in the victinity of a Nexus, the Dragon gains a bonus on rolls for: - entering the Dreamtide - regaining Breath from mortals - invoking Edicts

Now this is just plain awesome. We waaaaantsssss it, precioussss....

Vree wrote:

Nexuses: [<- random, might suck]

A Nexus a piece of the astral (or the lower depths) brought down into this world, made real. Spirits and ghost are able to make themselves fully corporeal within its borders. A nexus also blurs the difference between dreams and reality. Fantastic creatures of legend or archetypal people (like folk heroes) that exists int he astral are the things that can be lifted from the mind of a single mortal within a Nexus and made real. Nexuses feed on humanity’s collective consciousness, and so they do not contain anything specific to one person; the person’s mind only serves as an entree point to a collective mind. These creatures though are still astral beings, and to exist outside a Nexus, they need supernatural energy (Breath or other equivalent) to keep on existing.

...Why the Lower Depths? This sounds nothing Lower Depths phenomena, and Dragons haven't displayed any particular connection no particular to them. ...Unless you're talking about the lower depths of the Dreamtide, rather than the realms of unreality (as opposed to the twisted reality of the Abyss) Mage refers to as "the Lower Depths".

Also, I'm not sure I like the whole "blurring the difference between dreams and reality" thing. It makes it too easy to dismiss the stuff that happens in a Nexus as "not real". Make Nexuses function on different rules from the normal world, use symbolic or dreamlike logic, contain wonders and horrors found nowhere else--but don't make them bring legends and folktales to life, and don't make the strangeness of a Nexus vanish or stop being supernatural when removed from it.

Vree wrote:

Cosmological...stuff.

Um. No. Just...no. This is a horror game about being a monster that is a metaphor for rulership and power. Exactly how do impenetrable ruminations on the nature of dreams, reality, and the soul fit into that?

Don't approach Dragon with the goal of making a Grand Unifying Theory of the World of Darkness. Approach it with the goal of making a splat and cosmology that make sense within the context of Dragon; no other games need apply, with the possible exception of Mage, and then only if it strengthens Dragon's themes.

So let's say that True Dragons are mysterious and powerful beings from beyond the furthest reaches of the Dreamtide (and may or may not be Supernal, but that's for the individual Storyteller to decide). Old Dragons are the first generation of usurpers, and differ from the modern Oroboroi who usurped them in turn mainly in terms of experience, knowledge, and culture.

True Dragons can't use Edicts nonverbally, because no one can use Edicts nonverbally. Edicts are inherently verbal; it's kind of their thing.

It's exceedingly rare, but Oroboroi can refine their Furnace, connection to the Mandate and their Province, and their draconic powers to the point of completely shedding their humanity and becoming a True Dragon, in a kind of parallel to a Mage's archmastery and/or Ascension. (Rules for this, if we decided to include it at all, would not be part of the core rules, but rather would be part of an Imperial Mysteries-style supplement.)

Gravitas Man

I had some thoughts that tie together a few different points you guys have been kicking back and forth. These largely build on the idea that Breath is predominately gained from Hordes and provience maintainance (whether by interacting with humans or passively as has been suggested.)

Firstly, I really like the idea of Overburn. I also think it will be a good way to emphasise the drawback of gaining a high Furnace. So what if as Furnace rises, Overburn increases.

A high Furnace dragon must go to more extreme lengths to keep his inner Furnace fed. This could be used to bring back some of the ideas of eating flammable items. Dragons would need to eat to feed this inner flame. A bottle of Vodka wont do any longer. They need petrol. A whole can of it. Their bodies can no longer be sustained on normal foods as easily and they need to eat. Raw meats. Sheep carcasses might do, for a day or two at least. Even humans. Virgins out to be sacrificed is a common dragon motif after all. Another Dragon’s Pearl could be also be consumed, assuming that the pearl is merely a valuable item from a Dragon’s hoard. This could give some incentive for Dragon politics to be especially vicious. If you are too weak to defend your property, then it will get taken, either by force or by guile.

Of course Dragons could also “Vent” their Furnace by expending Breath. However as Overburn increases more Breath is required to successful “Vent.”. This means that only Dragons that can have well-maintained horde and province are able to maintain a high Furnace, since only those Dragons can reliably gather enough Breath to “Vent” their “Overburn.” (Perhaps thats why Dragons in stories spend a lot of time inactive, they are venting their internal furnace and replenishing it with their hordes).

I think this could affect a few things. Firstly it reinforces just how unnatural Dragons are and that the human body is too frail to really cope with a high level of Furnace, at least not without becoming more monstrous. I might try to write some fluff text for it, but if it emphasised that “Overburn” is really quite painful, then I think some drama and horror could be eked out of this idea.

Secondly, it would (hopefully) emphasis the conflict between Dragons. More powerful Dragons would seek to dominate weaker Dragons, and reduce their hordes to add to their, so that they can more comfortably maintain their own power blocs. This would also hopefully tie into the themes of the game, as the older Dragons would attempt to weaken and “consume” the younger Dragon’s power blocs.

I think this conflict would also give a strong incentive for PCs to actually work together and give a reason for them to form a Den. 3 Dragons working together are harder to be dominated than just 1 right? So far Dragon has been a bit lacking in reasons to work co-operatively. I think Dragon on Dragon conflict could help answer that problem. It would also reenforce the themes of the game, of Dragons consuming themselves.

This could also throw some interesting internal conflict too. A powerful, hated NPC has been brow-beating the PCs, whittling away their hoards, maybe even a taking one of their Maidens. Eventually they defeat him and break his strangle-hold. Then they discover his heart. The desire to kill him is strong. But hearts aren’t replenish able. Sure they could get a human to eat it, but then they’d have to share the resources right? A lot of fun role-play dynamics could be spun out of a such a scenario.

The other thought I had was on True-Hearts. I really really like the idea of a True-Heart being special and that all Oroboroi start as True-Hearts initially but that very few choose to remain as one. I think once a heart is removed, the Dragon should forever lose the True-Heart powers. I think True-Hearts should have a harder life, if they choose to remain with their Hearts within them but that it should be possible (though difficult) to remain so.

Firstly, I think True-Hearts should be instantly recognisable to other Dragons. Other Dragons (and hunters) can tell a True- Heart much more easily than a regular Dragon. This causes them problems. Older Dragons are much more likely to attack them to give the Heart to a preferred host. I like the ideas mentioned before of the Heart being an Attra, this could be used to cause a lot of awkward situations for a Greenhorn True-Heart.

Ideally this would encourage True-Hearts to be nomadic. However, if they are nomadic, then it is infinitely harder for a Dragon to develop a province and maintain a hoard. Overtime, as Furnace rises, without an easy source of breath being gained from a province would encourage the True-Heart to settle down and remove their heart. On the other hand, by not developing a hoard and province and thus getting drawn into the territorial disputes of majority of Dragons could allow True- Heart players to be more heroic and be a pillar of hope against the crushing themes of extinction. I think this could be very fun to play.

Some bits and bobs.

This song seems to fit the themes of the game pretty well, in my opinion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX14TMvBGFw

For some reason, I have the idea that Jack Reacher would be good inspiration for a heroic True-Heart. A wandering nomad who helps people, but also firmly enforces his own ethics and will on a situation. Seems quite appropiate/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Reacher

Historical figures who would make a good Dragon

Rasputin. Became a powerful influence in the rule of Russia. Even the Tsar defered to him in certain regards. Also very hard to kill. Could be a Dragon!

Vree

There is definitely room for increasing the daily Breath requirement, like the number of Meals used to increase before.

Maybe you could rejoin the meal/Breath and the Overburn/Fossilization penalties again, too.

So what if it worked like this:

Furnace 1 - 1 Breath; a shot of vodka Furnace 2 - 1 breath; a glass of whisky Furnace 3 - 2 Breath; a bottle of whisky Furnace 5 - 3 Breath; a can of gasoline

The dragon does not have to expend her daily Breath when she wakes (like a Vampire would). Instead, it is during one of her daily meals when she must „stoke her Furnace”. The dragon consumes the material, then spends the Breath to ignite it.

I like this. It seems cool.

If possible, I would like to keep the importance of consuming food low. The method for regaining power points (Breath here) is the most effective way of making characters behave according to the traditions of their splats, I don't think every fangame writer notices this. Not even official splats always do. So this is important. But this’d work.

I agree with keeping the pressure on Dragons to collect Breath too. There should be several methods for regaining Breath, sure. A crafty dragon can ensure enough sources for herself that running out is only a virtual risk. But there's still a constant looming threat that your enemy suddenly target all your possessions - money (Hoard), people (Maiden) and power (Province) - and so there is a desperate drive to get even more and more of these things, so that you can feel safe. Suddenly going bankrupt, or losing status and succumbing to Fossilization as a result should be a VERY real risk. If someone steals your Hoard, getting it back should be a matter of life and death. Capturing Maidens or terrorizing people for Breath should be stuff that can be brought about by depravity, but also by desperation.

Even simpler methods to secure Breath need be sufficinently difficult.

Reverence/Worship: This method seems to require the least work. Capital error. Reverence may well require the most work. Something goes wrong int he Province, wages are low etc.? People are blaming you! Things go well? Opps, you forgott o campaign to keep your face well known, now they attribute their good fortune to someone else! What’s more, while the other methods usually gain you Breath per capita, this type of source is weak, requiring dozens or hundreds of people for every single Breath point.

Awe: The first problem is that this method is of no use without witnesses.Basically, the dragon must create for himself regular social situations where she can impress others. (That’s one thing that Provinces are for.) Impress isn't really the right word. It is a bit darker than just getting someone's approval. You must demonstrate that you are BETTER, even if it means hurting the feelings of someone else. So this isn’t as tame as it seems either.

Hoard: You think you can just buy yourself a Hoard with money? Wrong! Everything in the Hoard needs to be an item of outstanding rarity, preferably magical. A freshly cut diamond directly from the jeweller does nothing. A crown jewel of an Austrian dynasty might do. Maybe rare metals are only good if you dug them out of the earth with your own claws…etcetra.

Virgin sacrifices:

I want a short section in character section about the significance of choosing your Virtue and Vice for a dragon (and authors can lift what I say directly from here if theey want):

Virtues represent the dragon's qualities as a ruler: is she a beacon of hope to her people, a hero of the poor and downtrodden? Is she a personification of justice who promotes fairness?

Vices demonstrate the dragon's connection with her draconic nature. Is she a personification of Greed, a hoarder and jealous protector of treasures? Is she a person of Envy, who can not resist challenging others and enjoying their humiliation? Is she a gluttonous devourer of knowledge and secrets? Is she a personification of Lust who demands virgin lovers to be brought to her?

Gravitas Man wrote: The other thought I had was on True-Hearts. I really really like the idea of a True-Heart being special and that all Oroboroi start as True-Hearts initially but that very few choose to remain as one. I think once a heart is removed, the Dragon should forever lose the True-Heart powers. I think True-Hearts should have a harder life, if they choose to remain with their Hearts within them but that it should be possible (though difficult) to remain so.

Firstly, I think True-Hearts should be instantly recognisable to other Dragons. Other Dragons (and hunters) can tell a True-Heart much more easily than a regular Dragon. This causes them problems. Older Dragons are much more likely to attack them to give the Heart to a preferred host. I like the ideas mentioned before of the Heart being an Attra, this could be used to cause a lot of awkward situations for a Greenhorn True-Heart.

Ideally this would encourage True-Hearts to be nomadic. However, if they are nomadic, then it is infinitely harder for a Dragon to develop a province and maintain a hoard. Overtime, as Furnace rises, without an easy source of breath being gained from a province would encourage the True-Heart to settle down and remove their heart. On the other hand, by not developing a hoard and province and thus getting drawn into the territorial disputes of majority of Dragons could allow True-Heart players to be more heroic and be a pillar of hope against the crushing themes of extinction. I think this could be very fun to play.

Cool ideas.

I don't mind them thematically, I just have a difficult time explaining how they work. Why can't you put a Heart back? If you put it back anyway, then what are you? How does the Heart know it is removed and why does it care anyway? Why'd it it resurrect you only if it's on the outside? (How do dragons even know why to remove Heart, do we saddle every character with a Mentor? etc.)

My True Hearts are immortal just like other dragons. There is some minor risk that a person may stab or shoot you right through the Heart, but that risk is normally low and if you just die for some other reason, the Heart brings you back.

No, True Hearts have THIS big problem:

The Heart is normally covert. Not when it has to work overtime to resurrect a person, though. You can see the Heart burning and beating inside a recently dead True Heart's chest even from the outside. Since some time must pass before the Dragon can rise again, there is plenty of time for someone curious to slash the dragon's chest open, or the dragon to end up on an autopsy table, or for one of her enemies to hear about the situation.

[On a related note, I'm quite a lot against the "horror or eternity" (lol) or the long waiting time between revivals. We should not be THAT overtly copying Vampire. So I have no problem with giving True Hearts only 1-2 days between revivals. When the Dragon dies, the Heart starts working overtime, buring a dot of Furnace. During this time, wounds close, broken bones reattach - sometimes quite overtly, if the dragon died a gruesome death - and the Dragon heals a point of Aggavated damage at a rate of 1/day. When the three rightmost Aggravated wounds are removed, the Dragon rises again. Taking Aggravated damage (but not Bashing or Lethal) can prevent the resurrection from working; if this was the case, the Heart will keep burning Furnace dots until the 3 Aggravated free boxes are reached or until Furnace is 0 = final death.]

[I have some dislike for the whole immortal dragons thing too, LOL, but that's a different topic. ;)]

My other concern is keeping them playable. I don't mind them as NPCs, but then they shouldn't get powers and moral superiority, lol. True Hearts and others in the same party (maybe who's what is just a side matter, too) is kinda cool tho.

(also the No. 1 reason for not removing the Heart being that noone tells you that you should kinda defeats the glory associated with this status a little)

I totally get and like your idea of pilgrim True Hearts though; it is pretty cool.

I suggested it before that the True Heart having their Heart still attached may free them from the daily Breath requirement. This would effectively free them from the need to maintain Provinces and Hoards, which may help the nomadic lifestyle you suggest.

Note, if the daily Breath uptake increases with Furnace level, then either True Hearts only get a -1 to the amount needed and so start paying Breath above some Furnace like everyone else, or an eppropriate drawback should be added. I suggest reapplying the Heartbeat drawback to them. As a True Heart’s Furnace increases, the Heart starts drawing people looking for the Heart to them too. So while other dragons hide their Hearts in even deeper and more secretive places as Heartbeat calling out to mortals becomes a problem, the True Heat would be forced to hide himself away more and more.

Exploding Frogs wrote: I love these ideas; they are exactly the tonal paradigm shift I think the game needed.

Thanks. Sorry for the unorganizedness of those notes.

Exploding Frogs wrote: It would probably be better to refrain from directly comparing the Mage view of the Astral with the Dragon view.

Nah, that is for your reading eyes only. Definitely not intended to stay in the text.

Exploding Frogs wrote: Very evocative, but I have a suggestion: Rather than the Dreamtide becoming more primitive and primal as you go deeper, have you considered it becoming more universal, less specific to the individual, more archetypal? In the shallows, it's just your own astral space, and then as you go deeper, the dreams and feelings and thoughts and instincts of other people, plants, and animals start bleeding in, as you describe above. But that's still in the relative shallows. As you get into the mid- and deep Dreamtide, you start encountering symbols and archetypes more often than the products of any individual life- form, and in the deepest reaches, you perceive the dreams of cities and mountains and continents, even the world itself, and the line between the symbol or archetype of a thing and the thing itself is increasingly blurred.

Maybe ditch the aquatic imagery? Come up with a name other than the Dreamtide? I mean, considering that it's a realm of the world's dreams and archetypes (and possibly souls?) blurring together, there's no particular reason for aquatic symbols to predominate over other dream images and concepts. And the whole "gateway to the Supernal" thing feels, to me, more like rising up than diving down.

Well depending on the day of the week, I imagine these places as skies, seas, voids, dreams, or Indiana Jones-likes jungles with pagodas and pyramids. I don't think I'm really fit for them though; I don't really like these "dream spaces" in Mage either. They are just endless varieties on human symbolism.

The sea image coincides with various dragon legends, is all.

I’m really bad with names, so I keep calling it the Dreamtide for convenience mostly. My scribbles have little to do with CJC’s version after all

Exploding Frogs wrote: Don't approach Dragon with the goal of making a Grand Unifying Theory of the World of Darkness. Approach it with the goal of making a splat and cosmology that make sense within the context of Dragon; no other games need apply, with the possible exception of Mage, and then only if it strengthens Dragon's themes.

Absolutely. I did not intend so much of that stuff to stay in the post, but that's just how my notes were going...

I only care about other games insofar as keeping room open for crossovers. The main sections should be standalone. But there’s room for a section that talks about crossovers later too.

I too am dead set on removing all the Mage cosmology from the game, but on the other hand I was inspired by when you said that there should be room for a link between Mage dragons and Embers dragons. I think that is very true.

So that’s what actually drove me to play with most of the Mage-cosmos stuff you see here. yeah totally your fault ;p

Including the Astral is something CJC added. While I definitely do not like the dream-walker dragon stuff, I thought maybe there was some room to salvage some elements by defining it as a realm of thought, not dream, and topping it with mage world duality and the Cosmis Egg stuff.

I do not claim it to be of any value though. :p

(Something should be mentioned: all the astral walking? that's the original dragons- Oroboroi (in my world) are at the stage of "ooh, pretty colors!", cluseless about the stuff)

Quote: Deep Ones:

Don't like this. I honestly don't think that we need to have Deep Ones at all; they feel unnecessarily tacked on. Even the bit in the Dragon backstory about a Deep One starting the whole heart-removal thing is easily dropped; it's easy enough to just say that removing their Hearts is something that Dragons can just do. The only purpose Deep ones serve in the setting, as far as I can tell, is to explain something that no one would question if it were left unexplained.

I fancy the Deep Ones, myself. I like the fact that dragons have these older/stranger cousins. And they are one of the few actually horroristic elements in Embers right now.

They, too, weren’t my idea tho. :p Ask CJC & Shock about their purpose.

Quote: (Also, "Pink Void"? Seriously?)

Lol, sorry. Just a nickname. (these were just notes, after all.)

Quote:

METHODS FOR REGAINING BREATH:

Loving this. I especially like the ideas on recovering Breath passively by maintaining one's Province.

Maybe, rather than expressing a well-developed Province through Fame and Status, the relationship a Dragon has to their Province is a Merit in its own right, or perhaps a system trait? This would cover a variety of things, like how big the Province is, what it will and won't do on your orders, how good it is at carrying out those orders, how fast it gets things done, how much you recover through it passively, how easy it is to recover Breath through it actively, and how frequently you can recover Breath through your Province. Look at the Cult merit from Mummy: the Curse for inspiration on how this might work, or for that matter the Cult merit from Leviathan: the Tempest.

Yeah I think I posted some merit ideas to the same effect ont he past pages. Unlike Maidens or Hoards, I think a Province may or may not be an universal dragon trait. Even nomadic dragons leave a trail. Even wild dragons guard their territory. Even a loser dragon living in a small apartment is jealous about it. (Even more, probably.) Or maybe not. I’m not against it being a Merit; I love numbers. It should not step ont he toes of Status or Fame, though.

I may try to post more stuff on what I see as a Province, but I imagine it as something like this: - the dragon must assume at least one „royal” function for the place to count as a

Quote: I would suggest that inspiring terror be something any Dragon can do, not just Hydras and Devourers and the like. It should also be quicker and easier than inspiring awe. That way, it's a constant temptation to stray from being a good ruler for a quick power-up, and succumbing to this temptation might well be the reason some Dragons become Hydras in the first place.

Sure.

Quote: So far, I'm liking what I'm seeing. This is everything I'd imagined the True Dragons to be.

Although I'm a bit confused on the distinction between True Dragons and Old Dragons. I seem to recall you suggesting multiple Collapses, with the second being the overthrow of the first generation of Oroboroi. Is that what you're talking about here--the True Dragons are the original dragons, and the Old Dragons are the first generation of usurpers?

"True Dragons" are astral beings, some of them free, others sometimes serving some sort of god or other as messengers, guardians, mounts and similar.

"Old Dragons" were a sub-group of True Dragons who moved in to the Material realm and founded the Dominion. They were the ones who invented the method for regaining Breath through worship; who created the first Edicts to control every aspect of the natural world and their own domains; and who introduced humankind to the concept of rulers and feudal societies. They were eventually usurped by mortals.

It is difficult to define what makes a dragon. They must be freedom-loving and servilient, godlike but monstrous, beautiful yet horrific.

True Dragons, as mentioned, are trapped by their Mandate. Every supernatural being has some sort of ban or Achilles heel; this is theirs.

The doom of old dragons was that the loss of humanity support and their Provinces deprived them of Mandate and Breath. The latter caused them to Fosilize alive, break down their bodies, while the former stripped them of their spiritual aspect leaving only their monstrous side behind. Or something like that.

This is just a random idea, but the Mandate may be one of many missions that a True Dragon might have. Old Dragons had this as their purpose, other True Dragons may have different ones.

I always wanted to play up the angle of dragons that they are giant monsters who are also intelligent. They are an intelligent species just like us – who also happen to be colossal reptilian predators. So they have an entirely different world view, concept of society etc. I find this the best and most fascinating aspect of dragons, that they are unashamedly a different type of intelligence and a different type of creature. They don’t WANT to be human-like.

Quote:

Vree wrote: Because they are beings from outside this world, Dragons naturally "leak" magical energy. A similar logic as in the case of the Oroboroi Breath requirement is at work here; Dragons must spend energy to maintain their physical bodies. When one looks at a True Dragon, one often will notice that sometimes they seem part transparent; a sign that the Dragon is not quite „really” there, in a sense, and MAKES herself real. Old Dragons side stepped this by creating physical bodies for themselves, but other True Dragons usually do not waste energy on such temporary luxuries.

I don't really like this, though. In Mage, when Supernal things come to the Fallen world, they don't have that transparent, not-quite-there effect. They're exactly as solid and real as anything else. Perhaps more so--an aesthetic I like to borrow from the Young Wizards series by Diane Duane is the concept things from "higher" realms of existence not glowing numinously or being ghostly or transparent, but rather being more solid, more there, more real, than anything else around them. So much so that ordinary reality seems crude and incomplete and fragile by comparison--like a crude, smudgy drawing held up next to the real thing.

Well, the whole reason I even touched the Lower Depths was to mess with the lower/higher, more solid/less solid concept. So this can be either really.

Quote: ...Why the Lower Depths? This sounds nothing Lower Depths phenomena, and Dragons haven't displayed any particular connection no particular to them. ...Unless you're talking about the lower depths of the Dreamtide, rather than the realms of unreality (as opposed to the twisted reality of the Abyss) Mage refers to as "the Lower Depths".

Yeah yeah very true. Honestly I'd never have touched the Lower Depths (some throwaway lines in Mage? please...) but Shock mentioned them, so I tried making up my own version. I really would like to know what Shock wanted to do with them, though.

See, it was easier for me to make up a world ABOVE this world and a world BELOW than just having one material world and one Dreamtide/astral world in order to do some things, and so the one below became the Lower Depths. I have no knowledge about what those are like, at all, though. (They sound like a very Mage-exclusive thing.)

Quote: Also, I'm not sure I like the whole "blurring the difference between dreams and reality" thing. It makes it too easy to dismiss the stuff that happens in a Nexus as "not real". Make Nexuses function on different rules from the normal world, use symbolic or dreamlike logic, contain wonders and horrors found nowhere else--but don't make them bring legends and folktales to life, and don't make the strangeness of a Nexus vanish or stop being supernatural when removed from it.

Yeah, that was a last minute addition.

It would be probably better to say that:

Nexuses are invisible, just like a Locus or a Demesne.

But I hate the idea of Nexuses (even tho I made them up) anyway, so

Quote: So let's say that True Dragons are mysterious and powerful beings from beyond the furthest reaches of the Dreamtide (and may or may not be Supernal, but that's for the individual Storyteller to decide).

That’s exactly how I imagined it yeah. Dragons MAY be from the supernal realms, maybe beyond or outside this world, or they may be something lesser.

Old Dragons are the first generation of usurpers, and differ from the modern Oroboroi who usurped them in turn mainly in terms of experience, knowledge, and culture.

True Dragons can't use Edicts nonverbally, because no one can use Edicts nonverbally. Edicts are inherently verbal; it's kind of their thing.

The thing was, the way I originally imagined, EVERY Oroboros could use Edicts without words in astral space. In Astral space you also used Willpower instead of Health

It's exceedingly rare, but Oroboroi can refine their Furnace, connection to the Mandate and their Province, and their draconic powers to the point of completely shedding their humanity and becoming a True Dragon, in a kind of parallel to a Mage's archmastery and/or Ascension. (Rules for this, if we decided to include it at all, would not be part of the core rules, but rather would be part of an Imperial Mysteries-style supplement.)

And I think that is where the Pearl may come into the picture (if we do the Astral and Pearl things at all, of course).

The human body isn’t fit for Ablutions, but can eventually accept them with the growing of Furnace. (which is itself the process of turning more dragon and less mortal.)

A human soul however, is a human soul. It can not do all the things that a dragon’s body can, it will forever be limited by its own constraints.

So Oroboroi must retrieve a pearl of wisdom, a special bit of dragon soul.

The human soul and the pearl will never truly be one (so there is always the risk of losing the pearl), but while they are together, they make up value equal to the spirit of a dragon.

Also, acquiring the Pearl would be a milestone silimar to killing one’s Fetch or Promethean milestones.

Gravitas Man wrote: Another Dragon’s Pearl could be also be consumed, assuming that the pearl is merely a valuable item from a Dragon’s hoard.

stuff related to that I haven't posted before:

If a dragon has another's Heart/pearl, the Heart-thief can draw Breath from the other Dragon through the Heart.

Roll Furnace + Presence - other Dragon's Resolve.

Each success drains 1 Breath.

[I lifted this one directly from how Mage Soulstones work.]

The Dragon spends Willpower to activate Edcits by default. If the Dragon possesses a Red Pearl, she may spend Breath as if it was Willpower for the purpose of activating Edicts.

-> may be too powerful

1 Willpower = 3 Breath, roughly.

1 Edict = 3 Laws (which may have to be used at the same time for 3 Breath for maximum effectiveness) surely there is something good in that.

Maybe before you can use any Edicts, you must spend 1 WP to activate a Dreamtide connection in the area for a scene first? And if you have a Pearl you do not need to do that?

Or you must spend WP to "unlock" an Edict first, then use the Laws within it with Breat? (too costly no)

CJC

I do like the 'weight of the soul' concept. "Is your Heart lighter than a feather?" It also fits well with the Earth and Sky balance of Yin and Yang. In Chinese mythology Dragons are comprised of 66% Yang (sky) energy, while Phoenixes are their balancing counterpart built from 66% Yin (earth) energy. Granted, we don't want to step on Risen's toes either (Vigo and Oyama have been very supportive), but it's still something to work with.

What if the Dreamtide is a very different place depending on your spiritual weight? Dragons, being 'light' in their soul are constantly pulled back up, and need to take on earthly weight to keep from floating into the Dreamtide. Likewise, Deep Ones are 'heavy' in their soul, and must shed their extra weight to ascend out of the Dreamtide (hence why they bargain for organs to gain access to the material). Because the realm is different based on the weight of the soul, Dragons and Deep Ones share essentially the same spark of creation but experience it in completely separate ways. Or perhaps dragons should have two realms, one tied to a light soul (which they can enter easily) and another tied to a heavy soul (which they must struggle to enter, and which changes them for the journey).

Deep Ones exist in Dragon the Embers primarily to show that a Dragon's power is not unique to their being, but rather a feature of the world from which they emerged. They also serve to show that beings of that reality are more varied than they appear, and their motivations might be impossible to understand. That's at least the way I see it.

I added Cthonic Ghuls when someone told me how much they liked the Embers Deep Ones and requested that I give other Lovecraft monsters a Dragon veneer. The Shayatin take a Dragon's other source of power and show that--without the proper vessel to accompany it--a being with Edicts is little more than a beast. There's room for them to grow, though, since this is the first version that has included them.

Anyway, I'd like to thank everybody for their thoughtful contributions to this project. It really is appreciated.

Exploding Frogs

I think there may have been a miscommunication. I'm not an advocate of removing Mage connections entirely! Just, well...treat it kind of like Changeling treats Arcadia and dreamwalking--hint at connections enough that it creates plot hooks for crossover games, but keep the style, tone, and mechanics distinct enough that a Storyteller can say that they're unrelated without breaking suspension of disbelief.

Changeling's Oneiromancy, for example, has parallels with Astral travel, but looks and feels and plays very differently, and there are things an Oneiromancer can do that a Mage in the Astral can't, and vice versa. And every book that explicitly discusses the possible Arcadia connection gives a different suggestion for what it might be than all the others.

I think that the mystery of the True Dragons adds more to Dragon than it takes away, and while I was originally against the inclusion of the Dreamtide, I absolutely love a lot of what you've done with it. And if hints of Mage cosmology are to be retained in this fashion, the Dreamtide is important if only because of the dragon dreams that lead the first Mages to Atlantis.

Unless by abandoning the Mage cosmology you were talking about the whole "mirrors of the five Supernal Realms" bullshit, in which case yes, that does need to be excised. But as I said above, I feel that the Dreamtide is useful thematically for entirely different reasons.

Hmm. Perhaps the Dreamtide could be a medium by which dragons establish and consolidate their rule? Astral Realms andImperial Mysteries mention the idea of using Temenos realms to influence the ideas, beliefs, and loyalties of people on a large scale, but don't really go into much detail about it other than to say it's tricky and dangerous. But that's Mages. What if the makeup of the Dreamtide and the way Dragons interact with it lent itself naturally to that kind of mass influence, such that it was their default approach and influencing specific individuals was actually harder for them? Not only would it dovetail nicely with the themes of rulership, but it would be an approach and style to dreamwalking powers that's very distinct from both Changelings and Mages.

The Lower Depths are, essentially, un-reality (as opposed to the twisted reality of the Abyss). Think of it like this: The Supernal is Truth, which shines down into and defines the world. Along the way, it passes through the Abyss, which is Lies. So Lies twist a bit (or, I suppose, a lot--how would we know) of The Way Things Are Supposed To Be, resulting in reality as we know it. The Lower Depths are realms "below" the "real" world where key aspects of reality, rather than being True or a Lie or a mix of both, simply don't exist at all. So you can have a Lower Depths realm where Matter, or some aspect thereof, doesn't exist. Like, at all. Some Lower Depths realms have inhabitants, and some of those inhabitants parasitically leech the missing quality of their realm away from our world when they can.

Really though, "Lower Depths" is kind of a catch-all term for "freaky place where magic doesn't work right." Mages don't really understand them, so naturally they slapped a label on them so they could convince themselves they understand them. Abaddon, the realm of World of Darkness: Inferno-style demons is a Lower Depths realm. Some mages speculate that the deepest reaches of the Underworld may touch on or be a part of the Lower Depths.

As I understand it, Shock interpreted the Lower Depths as a kind of cosmic dumping ground, where things that couldn't hack existence end up. He didn't see Dragons as originating from the Lower Depths, but rather as being afraid that that's where they were ultimately going.

I'm rather attached to the idea of Edicts being inherently tied to language. I mean, think about it: we have an ancient, powerful dragon magic based on the power of words.

At this point, Edicts are basically Thu'um.

Vree

Let us all mourn the loss of another one of my post to a PC crash. :p This one (once I can rewrite it) will be aiming to shed more light on the intended theme & purpose of the "True" Dragons. (Edicts and Mandate and replies will be coming soon, too.)

In the meantime, enjoy this short fic SPOILER about a pair of werewolfes encountering what I assume must be some Hydra-like being inside a Nexus.

--- The...thing had more heads than you could count on two hands. He-Who-Walks had seen some bad spirits in his life, even the ones that had the head of more than one animal, and ones with bits of machinery sticking out of them, but nothing quite bad as this.

There was a gasp from real close. This was, of course, coming from the person standing next to him, whose name was One Who Smells. Allegedly his real name was He-Who-Smells-Autumn-Leaves, but you never heard anyone call him that. Together, they have followed all morning a trail to what seemed like an irregular-seeming Locus. Something like a Rat Hosts or angry spirits would have been normal; What you did not expect to find was...this.

The swirling, hissing mass unravelled itself. It was only now that it became obvious how large it actually is. Darkness still obscured most of its features, but the towering moving heads looked so mesmerizing that Smells could not help blurting out:

"What ARE you?"

A dozen heads suddently turned towards them like weathercocks on rotating stands. When the voices spoke, they resembled hissing more than human speech.

"What do you want to know for, little childling?" This voice sounded like belonged to a woman, and it was dripping with sweetness. "What your mind could not posssibly conssieve." "We are the terror in the night." Added a booming voice; this one was a baritone, and sounded like something coming from the bottom of a deep well. "We are the hunterss within the chaosss." "we are the guardiansss and rulersss." "We are dragonsss."

"Dragons? But-That-" Smells was gesturing frantically, in case someone tried to shut him off. "I mean...I met this guy once, and he said...He said that all the dragons were dead." He raised his head hesitatantly. "He showed me this Dragon's...Heart..."

There is nothing quite like a hundred heads laughing in synch. When it subsided, a head from somewhere inside the bundle stretched forward, until its face was only a few inches away from the werewolves. From this close, it actually looked less frightening - a face resembling a lizard, red-green scales surroinding deep slit yellow eyes.

"We knowsss about them." "Oroborosss." (The other heads joined in on the echo: Oroborosss, Oroborosss...) "The heart-chazerss. They are foolsss. They consssume themsselvess. They get blinded by their foolishnesss. They can not ssee asss we do. They are no threat to usss."

"So...Are you one of these...Oroboros?" Walks inquired cautiusly.

"No more questionsss! Jussst the feassting." The sound of the heads snapping their teeth in the back became deafening. "Sssay your name...Or dieee."

The werewolf held out an arm to warn his colleague and took a step forward.

"I am He-Who-Walks-Shadows, leader of the pack ofPlatte River and emissary of Father Wolf. I ask you to state your purpose here, or leave."

"We hazzz not heard of this "Father Wolf"."

Walks' mind was racing. "Luna. Have you heard about Luna?"

"Luna. Oh yesss. We KNOWSSS her." "She hidesss from uss." another head commented. "She can not hide hersself forever."

"What do you want to find her for?" Smells asked suspiciously.

"We's gonna eat her...Of coursse. Feasst on her boness. We addsss her flesh to our ssspirit."

The temperature dropped. The werewolves squeezed their fists. The...dragon, was it? did not fail to notice.

"Ssuprised, little wolf? Have you not heard of the legend, of the dragon that eatssss the moon? That's usss.

Smells' voice trailed off. "The dragon that eats the moon...But, hey-" That's Father Wolf's..."

Walks held out a hand. He was now wearing a confident smile. "Don't worry. -I- I understand."

He circled around the creature. Now that he had seen what it was, it seemed a lot more vulnerable. "So...Mister Dragon. You have not heard of Father Wolf, but you still want to earn his place?"

He drew his weapon.

"Then let me teach you what a wolf IS."

Shock

That is true. I view the world depth much akin to Inferno and dumping ground. The reason for the inclusion to Dragon is threefold:

1. No gameline has expanded into the Lower Depths, thus allowing Dragon a unique opportunity to stake a claim before the official developers can.

2. Dragon's theme of slowly dying off meshes very well with the idea of the Lower Depths as things are stripped of their purpose and reason for existing.

3. The imagery: Fire, decay, forbidden knowledge, demons?, etc

This being said, Most people seem to be going with the Dreamtide.

Satchel wrote: Shock wrote: 1. No gameline has expanded into the Lower Depths, thus allowing Dragon a unique opportunity to stake a claim before the official developers can. Ignoring that "No gameline has expanded into the Lower Depths" is roughly the same as saying "No gameline has expanded into the vast unknown of the outside world," I can think of at least four that have done just that.

In some ways you are correct. Giest touched on the possibility of it being at the end of the Underworld, Mage tinkered with some of it's parts (the Tutor/The Decay, Cwn Annwn's, etc), World of Darkness: Inferno all but said Infernal Demons come from it, but none of them actually gave a full account of the realm it's self much like how Werewolf treats the Shadow, or Giest treats the Underworld.

I was hoping that Dragon could give a full account of what actually goes on in that realm vs what is just gleaned from the inhabitants who managed to crawl their way up into the Material.

Vree

I did try contemplating that option. For example, one of my sketches was this: suppose that the World Of Darkness is actually the real world, our world. However, there is a dark undercurrent influencing it that our world does not possess, a negative dream-tide if you will, composed of all of people's secret hates and fears. In our dreams, we may be travelling to fantastic places, or have the ability to fly, but that is not what we know to be real. We know that the real things, death, hunger, war, are the reality, even if we suppress those thoughts sometimes, they come to the surface, and that is where nightmares come from.

Maybe as a result of war and injustice in the WoD? maybe as a result of being cut off from the above, more idealized world of dreams that is the supernal realms? maybe it was just always like that?, but the physical world was brought to this side of the world of dreams and thoughts. And so there is a world of hell and nightmare, right below it, fighting to make itself real. It has been rising, pulling itself up slowly, slowly dragging the whole world down into the abyss. Beings of nightmare now can creep through the ripples, and that is where everything in the WoD (from ghosts to vampires to gods) comes from.

Players are thrown into this mess, into a world on the brink of damnation, fighting this hellish realm below, constantly at a risk of being pulled down into it permanently themselves, while trying to keep the people of the world from knowing, even assisting those who want to keep the population of the WoD ignorant. Because if people find out, there will be no return. Their thoughts will be filled with these visions of despair, and the lower world (which is a projection of their mental state, after all), will claim us and we will all fall.

An amazing setting for sure, but there is one big problem with it: it has jack to do with dragons. If explored, it probably would do better as its own separate game. Now, I could see this reinterpreted - a dark punk semi future where these half monster/demon (or dragon) hybrids are fighting for mankind's future. It'd be a bit of a break from the rest of the WoD, how dragons have been treated in the WoD, and the mythical dragon traditions, but know what? F#ck those guys. As we've all emphasized before, a strong standalone cool setting comes first. Everything stolen and borrowed is our Xth concern. And there is no question that this kind of setting is kind of cool.

Then there's my other problem. In a way, I feel that trying to create our own version of the Lower Depths is as bad as CJC trying to create his own Mind-reflection sphere. Both are elements lifted from Mage, and will probably will be explored in official WoD books too. Like Satchel said, the Mage supplements HAVE actually been exploring many aspects of the Lower Depths already. So we'd be running on something we borrowed from the official books, but which will inevitably be contradicted by later books.

Do with that as you may or convince me if you think it's still valid, but those did not seem such a good idea to me at the time.

CJC

What about revisiting Jormungandr and using him as the original dragon? Or is that too oWoD Antediluvian?

Also, given Shock's Philosophies which are reactions to the Vesuvius Eruption at Pompeii, perhaps a volcano's imagery should be used in the Oroboroi realm invisible (in lieu of the sea). Coupled with the idea of 'light and heavy' souls, I can envision a dimension where Dragons came to existence in the sky above the world, but were corrupted and weighed down by the cloud of ash and pyroclastic (heh, maybe pyros-clastic) flow of the volcano's explosion.

Perhaps the Ocean Ouroboros belched out a gout of magma when Dragons first erupted from its shores, rendering the whole area inhospitably toxic. To avoid drifting back into the fallout, these first dragons had to take on features of the beings further from their origin (and closer to the material world), which would explain their hybrid appearance.

Alternatively, if we were to switch to the Solstice model, then the 'Volcano' described could actually be a cataclysmic eruption of potential triggered by mankind's first foray into technology (the first steps into the Stone Age) and the warped denizens became the founders of the three notable species. Dragons were denizens that shed their Hearts to lose weight so they could fly over the destruction, and were corrupted by the ash cloud. Shayatin were denizens that fought and killed each other trying to escape during the chaos, and were twisted by the pyroclastic flow. And Deep Ones were denizens that, drawn to the curiosity of the explosion, were overtaken by the lava and twisted significantly by it, sinking inescapably into the depths of the Solstice's earth with little hope of escape. But there they felt the core of the volcano. And they knew the descent they had begun would not go deep enough. Or perhaps the Dragons were caught in the magma flow of the volcano, and the descent led them back to the material world. I don't know; I'm just pushing a boulder uphill at this point.

Vree

I'm liking that. You should totally use that volcano imagery more, for the Philosophies too. I never would've guessed that's what was meant though.

We have: Ash Sweat, Blood and Tears (bearing the names of bodily fluids) and Bones

The only one that's remotely volcano related is Ash. I guess Bones kinda fits if it's dead bodies and fossils? "Sweat, Blood and Tears" all stand for hard work in this context.

Shouldn't the Philosophies be something like:

Smoke (before) Fire Lava Embers Ash (after) if volcano imagery was the goal? :p

That gives me a little understanding what was meant by "Embers" too. The book never really explains what "embers" is a metaphor for proper. Is "Embers" a name for the Oroboroi? For the Philosophies? For the world? For the world before?

Again, the imagery is great, making that allusion clear though is lacking. ---

Philosophies should make the following clear: - the history of the group. When it was founded (even if they were all founded at the same time), how it survived until today, and if it underwent any major changes during its history. - the group's opinion about the dragon condition and/or dragon history. Do they believe certain events happened differently, should have happened differently, is there any aspect of being a dragon they focus on, how the expected role of a dragon looks in their heads. what are their traditions, beliefs and practices? - what it offers to its members. What does one hope to achieve by joining this group? (+secondaries: - what is the form of the group? is it more like a religion, a club, or a political movement? why is the specific format of the group especially applicable to dragon society, so that this form was able to become dominant? - how does the group do its recruiting? (are certain positions inheritable, or is ability/talent the basis (and if yes, which type: ), or something else? does it scout among mortals? etc.)

The descriptions of the originals:

Philosophy of Ash: An Embers Philosophy that believes society has a fundamental flaw that is causing its decay and inevitable destruction. That flaw should be exposed and utilized if necessary.

Philosophy of Blood: An Embers Philosophy that believes treachery and broken vows are the source of the past’s suffering. Crafted the Code of the Oroboroi after the Collapse to bring forth the duty of honor.

Philosophy of Bone: An Embers Philosophy that believes the unrelenting hand of fate will strike regardless, and the best option is to pick up the pieces after tragedy falls.

Philosophy of Sweat: An Embers Philosophy that believes pain is the taskmaster of life and any attempts to defer it, such as society, are doomed to fail.

Philosophy of Tears: An Embers Philosophy that believes emotion outweighs action when the chips fall. Seek a society with the proper motive to thrive.

Philosophy of Traditionalists: A True Heart Philosophy that believes the only way to reclaim the glory of the original Dragons is to shun the deep god’s offer of immortality and cling to the Heart proper. are nice but answer none of these questions.

It should also be noted that dragons with their Provinces have their own, complex society. Unlike, say, Prometheans (who have no society at all), and closer to Vampires (who play games of power and influence of their own). So Dragons have a much greater need for factions that actually resemble political parties, at least on an Invictus/Carthian (traditional imperialist/modernist) level.

(I think the general idea was that dragons' society would be slightly feudal; I'd like to see if that is true and how it works too.)

--- Below I'm posting some more ideas for groups. I kinda created these with possible Edict connections in mind.

GROUP A

The [A] group seeks to study the old dragons' secrets, try to discover what they were like, and maybe even become dragons themselves.

The [A] philosophy is a path of mental, physical and spiritual self-perfection, and revolves around the idea that every organ in the human body has the potential to become powerful like the Heart. They believe that by careful practice and regulation of the flow of Breath of the body, the body can be perfected until it attains the quality of godhood that the original dragons possessed.

For the same reason, the [A] group is opposed to the idea of removing one's heart. Even breaking up the Heart to smaller pieces (forming a Bond Of Brood) is generally forbidden for members. Only when one's body is perfect and whole is perfection achievable. Admitted members are expected to be either True Hearts or start to practice the Edict Of Heart as soon as possible.

(Also, making a bargain with a Deep One is just about the worst idea you can have as a member of this group, as it locks access to the Edicts related to the lost organ permanently.)

The Edicts learnable from this group are tied to the five major organs of the body: - Heart (Slayer) - Lung (Finder) - Kidney (Trickster) - Spleen (Inheritor) - Liver (Challenger)

EXAMPLE:

The Edict Of Heart

This Edicts manipulates the supernatural ties that connect a Dragon's body to their Heart, even after the Heart is removed.

- Law 1: The Dragon can re-establish the deeper spiritual bond with her Heart, becoming a True Heart again.

(The major recongized purpose of this Law is to help non-True Heart members. Also, a True Heart may lose her heart through no fault of her own: robbery, unwilling surgery, etc. This Law allows them to remedy that shortcoming in preparation for their exaltion. Although the use of this Law for popping the Heart out and back as the situation requires is looked down on, the group at least acknowledges that the situation may sometimes require a student to do that.)

- Law 2: Soul Link: The character may create a bond between his soul and the soul of a mortal. For all intents and purposes, that character has the Bond Of Brood merit. THis connection however does not count as a violation of the wholeness of the Heart, and also does not limit the Dragon's maximum Furnace. (The dragon is still not allowed to have more Bonds than her maximum Furnace at the same time.) Additionally, breaking the Bond is easier, as it does not require physically getting back the piece of Heart from the mortal. -3rd power: Anything (must be a pretty big power related to the Heart), but it is a prerequirement that the character's Heart is whole (True Heart and no Bond Of Broods other than those created with Soul Link).

Edict Of Spleen: - Law 1: Using this Law cancels satisfies the Dragon's daily Meal requirement (fuel stuff+Breath is replaced with the 1 WP needed to activate this Edict instead).

INSPIRATION:

The powers of the Ordo Dracul from V:tR whose powers bear many similarities. The organ choices came from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zang-fu (more on the Wu Xing and possible use in this game later below)

GROUP B

The [B ] group believes that believes that the concept of the Dominion, a world spanning empire, was a fundamentally good idea, the dragons just went about achieving it the wrong way. This time, they would get it right. Maybe it will be a democratic way, maybe through finance, maybe through war, these guys are interested in political dominance.

Edicts: - Assembly - Camaraderie possibly others

Edict Of Justice

Law 1: Judge: - see the sins committed by one imprinted on that person's soul (Intelligence + Investigation)

[This power reveals the person's Morality rating and the nature of the sins that caused their degradation (eg. theft, murder etc.). On an Exceptional Success, the dragon also learns information about the details of the crime - what relationship the perpetrator had with the victim, what were his motives etc.]

Jury: - have a person's strenght and defenses weakened by revealing his sins to onlookers (Manipulation + Expression+size of the crowd, resisted with Composure+supernatural advantage]

[The reduction is based on whether the crowd sympathizes with the person (no change) or condemns him (suffers the full effect). At least a 3 person "audience" is needed, and the majority must consider the person guilty. On successful use, the target completely freezes for Effectiveness Number turns. He is immobile (can not move) and can not apply Defense, or use any other Defensive stat (eg. Composure to resist social rolls etc.)]

Executioner: - deal damage to a character resisted by that person's Morality (Presence + 10-target's Morality)

[This attack has extra dice equal to 10-Morality. It is resisted with Resolve+supernatural advantage.]

NOTABLE: Although the Edict uses the laws of Morality/Mandate as a basis, the Dragon is not limited to enforcing those with this Edict. Many dragons create their own rules within their Province, and may want to reward or punish the observance of those rules. Although the rules for this Edict do not actually change, it makes a HUGE difference what the people of one's Province perceive as a violation of the Dragon's will.

INSPIRATION:

Every Edict in this group is meant to be tied to some major societal function.

For example, the Edict above attempts to sum up the entirety of the juidicary system. The Laws are somewhat based on the legal procedure: investigation, legal process and sentence.

Wikipedia has a list of traditional roles for a king or other head of state which contains some good inspiration here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_of_state

I also made a list once about the kind of roles a Dragon MAY fulfill in a Province (not neccessarily all of them), also a nice source of inspiration: - symbolic head of the Province: a symbol of unity: the Dragon upholds high Ethics, displays his Virtues, develops his skills and attributes to high levels and encourages others to do the same. - religious role: the dragon is the envoy of Heaven, and may be needed to perform ceremonial roles for the local churches. Often the Dragon himself is a subject of reverence. - head of government: appoints the positions leaders in the Province. - legislation: the Dragon makes his own rules in the Province. - judiciary: the Dragon is the final court of the Province, whose absolute word resolves disputions in cases where an agreement could not been reached otherwise. - diplomatic function: the Dragon represents his Province towards the leaders of other Provinces. - interior defense: the dragon oversees his own police forces who enforce his rules in the Province. - finances: the Dragon makes decisions about how to best support the economical growth in the region, often by selecting people are companies that perform better and giving thems special privileges.

GROUP C (Blood?):

Group C (which may simply be a trait of group A or B) believes that the first Oroboroi were actually blood descendants of the original dragons (and not just simply usurpers as the popular opinion goes; rather, they overthrew their own fathers). C attempts to keep this ancient draconic bloodline alive. It'd be a mistake to think that this means they prefer Dragon-Blooded characters, though; those characters may be simply descendants of an Oroboros with no blood ties to the dragons of old. However, they do constantly scout the mortal world for descendants of the original dragons (they know that such a character would be too far removed to be Dragon-Blooded, but they believe that the true bloodline never completely disappears. They are dragonkind's aristocracy.

To keep the bloodline alive, the group also strongly promototes creating offsprings with humans and with other dragons.

INSPIRATION: None really, but this is the first group so far that actually helps with character backstories: you were a wuiet unassuming office worker, until one day some men showed up on your doorsteps, asked a few questions about your ancestry, then made you an offer you were not allowed to refuse...

GROUP D (Ash?):

Group D is the opposite of Group C in some ways. Group D believes that dragons are on their way out, and quietly accepting that fate is for the best. Rather, dragons who exist still must help humans, who have inherited this world and become its new rulers, to succeed. Inexperienced, they benefit from the dragons' experience and wisdom, and it is this role that the dragons must take on themselves.

Group D is very much against any practice that'd forcefully extend the time of the dragon race. For example, mating with mortals is generally forbidden. They do however practice the Bond Of Brood as a way of helping mortals in need.

INSPIRATION: Not sure. It is kind of in the deck that one group may be an assembly of altruist/philantrophists, but I'm not sure. I's just one of those obvious things (and the old Philosophies had more than one such group, so I see this as an improvement), but one has to be cautious with "obvious" ideas in these fangames. Most official splats do just fine without any groups who are out to cooperate with humans, even though the idea is obvious every time.

Wu Xing:

This has a pretty good summary on Wikipedia here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Phases (and an expansion underhttp://en.wikipedia.org/...tional_Chinese_medicine ) Originally I thought it'd be a bad idea to bring this stuff into the game, but after thinking about how Philosophies/Edicts may work, now I see this idea as better.

Also, Mummy very much built on Egyptian philosophy and Promethean on the Greek tradition, so I don't see why we couldn't hijack the Chinese one.

Under this system, every Method gains an association with one of the five Chinese elements (and everything that goes with them), in this manner:

CHALLENGER Quing Long, the Azure Dragon of the East Planet: Jupiter Element: Wood Sense: eye/sight Organ: Liver Virtue: Idealism/Curiosity

SLAYER Zhu Long, the Vermillion Dragon of the South Planet: Mars Element: Fire Sense: tongue/taste Organ: Heart Virtue: Passion/Intensity

INHERITOR Huang Long, the Yellow Dragon of the Center Planet: Saturn Element: Earth Sense: mouth/speech Organ: Spleen Virtue: Agreeableness/Honesty

FINDER Bai Long, the White Dragon of the West Planet: Venus Element: Metal Sense: nose/smell Organ: Lung Virtue: Intuition/Rationality

TRICKSTER Xuan Long, The Black Dragon of the North Planet: Mercury Element: Water Sense: ears/hearing Organ: Kidney Virtue: Resourcefulness/Wit

(similarly, the five Method senses change like this: Slayers: Taste Danger (tastes the danger another dragon poses) Finder: Smell Treasure (knows dragons by their scent of gunpowder and lack of sweat) Challenger: See Heat/Talent (sees the dragon's fire in their chest and their cold blooded reptilian aura) Trickster: Hear Fear (hears the heartbeat) Inheritor: Feel Talent (senses the dragon's supernatural gift))

Apart from this being kinda cool, I was thinking this may be a nice way for grouping Edicts, too. (5 Edicts in every sub- group)

BOND OF BROOD

One thing that catches your eye in the book is the power level of BoB characters.

The idea that these characters can use Ablutions they have not purchased themselves, and even have a Furnace rating is...absurd. Why become a dragon, then? For just 5 Merit dots you can have all the same powers without having to spend a single exp on them.

(Strangely their dragon only loses from 10 to 9 max Furnace for enabling them to buy it up to 3, which kind of contradicts the themes about Hearts being difficult to create anew.)

So Bond Of Brooded need to be brought more in line with the other B-splats (Ghouls, Sleepwalkers/Proximi, Wolf-Blooded etc.) which gain significantly smaller advantages (or sometimes none) for their own Merit dots.

A good comparison for Bond Of Brooded mortals are Ghouls (V:tR page 166) who pay DOUBLE the usual exp costfor learning Vampire powers (Devotions).

So, I suggest the following changes/additions to this Merit:

The Bond Of Brooded mortal has their natural lifespan doubled.However, this only lasts as long as the Heart that the mortal was bonded to exists. If it is destroyed and the mortal exceeded their natural lifespan, they die of a painful heart attack. (Alternative: The mortal ages at a reduced (1/2) rate while bonded. This means that if the Heart is lost, the mortal simply stays in their current age but continues to age at the normal human rate from that point onwards.)

A Bond Of Blooded mortal gains the right to learn Ablutions. He pays for these with his own exp. The costs are the same as for Dragons, but the mortal does not benefit from the reduced cost for the Method Ablutions of its bond-mate. For mortals, all Ablutions apart from the Suit Of Hearts have the non-Method cost.

The mortal can only learn Ablutions that the dragon also possesses. Should the dragon die or the bond get broken, the mortal loses access to all the Ablutions he learned (he keeps them on his character sheet, but can not use them). If he is bonded to another dragon, he regains access to those that the new dragon also has. If the mortal would become a Dragon himself, he regains access to every Ablution he learned while he was human.

A Bond Of Blooded mortal has no inner Furnace; that is a trait exclusive to dragons. This comes with the following drawbacks: - The mortal's Furnace Bandwith is always 1. He can activate or disband 1 Ablution dot per turn. - The mortal has no Furnace that would protect him from the physical stress caused by attaining Degrees Of Divinity, meaning that he must spend 1 Breath or suffer 1 Lethal damage as soon as he has any Ablutions active. If he somehow acquires enough Ablutions that he'd unlock even higher Degrees, he pays 1 Breath/1 Lethal onwards same as dragons do. - Mortals do not possess a True Form. - The mortal has no Maximum Breath. Instead, a mortal can hold a number of Breath points equal to their Stamina. - The only way a mortal may regain Breath is through willing or unwilling transfer from the Dragon or the Heart that the mortal shares the bond with. The mortal must be touching the Heart or the dragon, and can transfer Breath to himself at a rate of 1/turn. Strangely, the dragon can not resist this even if the transfer is unwilling.

Borrowed Ablutions:

The Dragon and the mortal can not use the same Ablutions at the same time. The Ablution is "locked" for the mortal if the dragon has it activated to any degree. The same is not true for the dragon; if the dragon wishes to use the Ablutions, they are automatically deactivated on the mortal. This uses up the mortal's own bandwith (they can not continue to deactivate Ablutions the same turn the Dragon already forced them to). If the dragon is activating Ablutions faster than the mortal can deactivate them (due to the difference in Furnace Bandwith), the moral suffers 1 Lethal damage that turn.

If multiple mortals are Bonded to the same Heart, they must learn how to cooperate as they also block each other's access to the same Ablutions.

[Contested activation: Two characters may find themselves struggling for control of an Ablution. Forcing someone to give up an Ablution costs 1 Breath or 1 Lethal damage. The character can resist this by also sacrificing 1 Breath or 1 Lethal damage. If both characters do this, nothing happens and everyone keeps the Ablutions they had. Otherwise, the defender is forced to deactivate the Ablution (using up her own bandwith) and the other person can activate them at the same time.]

EXAMPLES OF BONDED CHARACTERS

Myria, The Dragon's maiden

Myria had a tough life. Growing up in the slums, she grew up to be violent and moody, and although she had a sharp mind and pleasant looks, with no education there was little hope for her to break out of poverty. Fortune knocked though in the form of a wealthy uptown boy she met by accident who became her boyfriend. Imagine her disappointment when one day, her lover took her aside and admitted that their romance was a facade: he was a monster of legend and his true goal with her was to make her into a sort of concubine of his. Myria didn't react too well to the news, and ended up stabbing him in a violent fit. Eventually, she regretted her hastiness, but by then it was already too late. Her boyfriend was bedridden with a crumbling Province and facing the horror of fossilization. Myria though was never the type to give up easily. He convinced her boyfriend to create the Bond with her, then she set about the task of restoring his Province single handedly, even if it means chasing out all the rival dragons herself. Although Maidens are usually low ranked in Dragon society, Myria has gained quite the reputation. Now the de facto ruler of a small Province, most dragons say it is only a question of time before she realizes she could claim them for herself, and acquires her own Heart. There are also some nasty rumors that, after every hunt, she asks for another piece of Heart from her lover, until she'll become more dragon he is.

Agatha Tyler, loyal soldier of the Organization

There is a hidden facility somewhere in Utah, a training ground for soldiers in a secret shadow war that no government ever authorized. When you are accepted, you are let in on a secret - that monsters once roamed the earth, and their bodies still lie below the earth. The Organization excavates these fossils, and extracts from them an essence that makes people...half- monsters.

The usual story fed to soldiers is that the Organization's purpose protect humanity from an even greater supernatural threat. The truth though is that the Organization is only interested in increasing its own power, by harvesting and securing as many Hearts as possible.

The Organization typically deploys units of six people - "Bond Brothers" all tied to the same Heart. This requires a lot of coordination and teamwork, as they all have to share the same Ablutions among six people. Rookie teams typically divide the roles and give every person within the team exclusive access to one Ablution or another. The Organization's elite teams however have mastered teamwork to an extent where every team member can access practically any Ablution as they need, all the time.

It is not known by what method the Hearts that the soldiers are connected to are maintained. However, it is assmued tha most Hearts are hacked up for research or get distributed among soldiers and never get connected to a Dragon. It is also whispered though that the Organization's men in powerthemselves bear the Bond and are connected to the mysterious Founders, men who control the Organization from the shadows, who may be themselves full fledged Dragons.

EDICTS

So, this is one possible way of doing Edicts. I don't say it's the only possibility, but it is unique and fun.

Suggested exp costs:

Method Ablution: 5 x dots (5,10,15,20,25) = 75 total Common Ablution: 6 x dots (6,12,18,24,30) = 90 total Non-Method Ablution: 7 x dots (7,14,21,28,35) = 105 total

Affinity Edict: 12 x dots (12,24,36) = 72 total Non-Affinity Edict: 15 x dots (15,30,45) = 90 total

"But wait, why are Edicts so expensive?"

They aren't really - they are roughly equivalent to 2nd-dot powers (or slightly above) in strenght, AND they do not have prerequisites. (Just for comparison: Promethean charges +3 exp for skipping directly to a 2nd level power, in addition to the power's normal cost.)

In this model, there is still a big gap between buying an Edict's first and 2nd Law, despite the fact that they have the same strenght. For this reason, it is very important that LAWS WORK WELL WITH EACH OTHER (this'll justifiy their extra cost). When you tweak an Edict, I'd like you to always write down under it how these can work together for a greater effect. From the THREE possible combinations of buying your first two Laws in the same Edict (x+y, y+z, x+z), at least TWO should definitely produce a useful effect that is worth activating as a combo. (I'm not demanding all three, as it is not easy to do that, but two needs to be managable in every case.)

Possessing all 3 Laws in an Edict gives the Dragon complete control over whatever is being controlled. (That should be the general theme, at least.)

General theme of Edicts: Control over the natural world. Dragons are complete masters of their territories, down to its smallest aspects. This involves both tratidional mortal landlord duties, but the Dragon also presides over elements of nature, animals, or even the supernatural.

As an example, here is a tweaked versionof the Metal Edict. ---

HOW THEY WORK TOGETHER: A master of Metal can pick up a steel poker and turn it into a +5, Armor Piercing 5 Jade weapon.

Law 1: Transmute: (Science)

The dragon transforms a small amount of matter into a precious stone or metal.

The Dragon's Effectiveness Rating is the amount in Size that can be transformed. Each success on the roll allows a substance to be moved one step up on the below scale.

0 Granite 1 Copper, tin 2 Steel, Cold Iron 3 Silver 4 Gold 5 Jade 6 Diamond

The object's (temporary/apparent) value is increased by this effect. Assume that each level of upgrade (eg. iron to silver, +1) allows the item to sell a Resource dot higher than where it was bought. (Note that this can not allow the dragon to raise her Resource Merit, which represents a regular income; but it may allow for one-time pruchases.) Unless the effect is made permanent, selling fakes to people is a sin akin to theft and forgery (Mandate 7).

This Edict also allows the dragon to turn matter into supernaturally significant substances such as silver, cold iron, or jade. These have the properties of the real thing. (Note that using Jade in a fight is a sin against Mandate, while harming under supernaturals may fall under attempted murder or turture.)

The effect lasts until the end of the scene. If the dragon spends a Willpower DOT, the effect can be made permament.

Law 2: Metalworking & Stone Working: (Crafts)

The dragon can shape metal and stone into various forms, without the need for machine tools.

Each point in the Effectiveness Rating eliminates a point of negative penalty for lacking access to special faculties (factories and workshops) or tools.

Repairing or making objects is still an extended roll, but a roll is made every turn, rather than every 30 minutes. A point of Breath must be spent again for each roll if a single one does not get the job done.

Any mundane object can also be reforged into a weapon this way, and existing weapons can be sharpened to a supernatural degrees. If the number of successes achieved on the roll is higher than the weapon's current damage bonus, then that number is its new damage bonus. These objects still can not have a higher damage rating than their Size+1.

The dragon's Effectiveness Rating must be equal or higher to the size of the object being worked in every case.

This effect is permanent.

Law 3: Harden:

The dragon gives a material supernatural hardedness. The object receives a temporary Durability increase equal to the Effectiveness rating.

If this effect is applied to weapons, they also receive the Armor Piercing quality with a rating equal to the Effectiveness Rating. The weapon also ignores Durability equal to this rating in objects.

This effect lasts for a scene, and it can not be made permanent. ----

So this, was a demonstration of how effects may be comboed.

This model requires a little different thinking. For example, if you have an Edict of Shapeshifting, and you have 3 Laws that allows you turn into a human, an animal, and a monster, then those 3 Laws should go under different Edicts. Yes, even though their effects are similar. In this system, similar powers may mean the same greater Edict groups. But Laws under one Edict are decided by their combined usefulness.

(It is also important that no Laws under separate Edicts can create too good an effect together, or the point of this system is lost.)

Dragon-Born

The text of the dragon-born merit needs a slight correction:

"Dragon-Born begin play with one extra Skill dot and one extra specialty per RANK owned in this Merit."

So,

1st generation (4-dot Merit): +3 skills/specialties 2nd generation (3-dot Merit): +2 skills/specialties 3rd generation (2-dot Merit): +1 skill/specialty

This is because of the way this Merit is consrtucted:

2 dot version: 2+4=6 exp 3 dot version: 2+4+6=12 exp 4 dot version: 2+4=6+8=20 exp(roughly 18 exp)

So, at each rank of this Merit, you receive something worth ca. 6 exp for free. The 4 dot version costs slightly more, but it may be a slight extra advantage from the character being closely related to a dragon, so that seems fine.

Now then...

Unfortunately this is another place where the game loses some sense of proportion, and gives something of greater value for something with a lower cost. On a first look, it may seem the 6 exp per level equals the advantage gained (disregarding the chance to gain more Furnace). free specialty + free skill dot 3 exp + 3 x dots exp

However, the free dot can go to a skill at any level. So it is more correct to weight the advantage against the skill's average, 3rd level.

3 exp + 3 x 3rd dot exp = 12 exp

So, it will on the average have double the worth of the original Merit costs.

I can't imagine why someone wouldn't pick Dragon-Born if they get the chance, because the advantage exp-wise is pretty great.

(WW is pretty strict about giving away greater advantages btw; check the "On character creation only" merits in the core rulebook, or the Wolf-Blooded merits in Blood Of The Wolf.)

An easy fix here could be to give a character +2 specialties per rank instead, but that's pretty boring. Plus, I LIKE the effect that the free dot from the Merit encourages you to raise skills to 3 dots and above, rather than spending it on 1st-2nd dots - that means that the Dragon-Born will excel at something, and that is how they should be.

However, even if you remove the bonus Specialty and only give +1 skill bonus per rank, you get more value than the cost of the Merit.

Here are some ways to fix this:

- Removing the skill or the specialty, leaving only one of the two.

- The Dragon-Born merit goes from 2-4 dots to 3-5 dots. This is also elegant exp-wise:

2+4+6 = 12 exp 2+4+6+8 = 20 exp 2+4+6+8+10 = 30 exp

So, ca. 10 exp per rank you can use to justify advantages. That covers the average value of a skill dot nicely.

But it has the unfortunate side effect that all Dragon-Blooded characters have more chance to receive an extra dot of Furnace this way, so much that the 3-dot version has almost more emphasis on that opportunity than the skill dot(s) provided.

With the 2-4 dot version, the probabilities are nice and elegant:

2-dot version: 50% 3-dot version: 66% 4-dot version: 75%

With the 3-5 dot version, these become:

3-dot version: 66% 4-dot version: 75% 5-dot version: 83%

- Dragon-Born start with this additional drawback:

Drawback: Dragon-Blooded characters share their ancestor's vulnerability to Jade. Jade deals Aggravated damage to them.

-> this is something I wanted to suggest either way; it is not so much of an exp reducer than a counterpart of the "chance for extra Furnace" bonus. For a character who lives a normal life, it is going to pretty rare for this to come into play, ever. However, this vulnerability creates excellent storytelling opportunities. A Dragon-Born who is unaware of their heritage will still remember "that time when I touched my aunt's jewelry and I was sick for a week". Since being Dragon-Born is impossible to confirm normally (there is no "dragon blood test"; scientific testing may determine the identity of the father, but not the fact that he is supernatural), the "jade test" (making a small scratch on someone's skin with Jade and see if he experiences pain) becomes the method for finding out if someone is from a dragon's bloodline. The fact that children of the Emperor carry an allergy for jade may have been common knowledge in medieval times, even.

(The dragon-Born text should stay the same. It is short, concise, gives a clear picture of who the Dragon-Born are and what their role in the story is, I love it.)

CJC

On Edicts I'm going to pass over the Edicts now, with just a general statement of what I think the new laws should do. No mechanics at this point, because it would be a waste of effort to write up a full law if it isn't going to fit the new model. I also think the permanence of Edicts should be emphasized, at least against inanimate objects.

I'll start with the elemental Edicts and branch out from there, adding and subtracting Edicts as necessary.

Metal (essentially what you suggested) Transmute the composition of a Solid Reshape a Solid Harden the surface of a Solid

Possible Combinations: Transmute and Reshape to craft a weapon effective against a specific target. Transmute and Harden to create barriers and functional electrical components for machinery. Reshape and Harden to make armor-piercing weaponry. Transmute, Reshape, and Harden to craft a supernatural kill-stick.

Fire Fuel a fire to increase its intensity and make extinguishing it more difficult Remote combustion to start fires and increase their size Manipulate the shape of a fire to make it dance to the Dragon's whims

Combinations: Fuel and Combustion to spark a resilient flame on command. Combustion and manipulation to turn hands into flamethrowers. Fuel and Manipulate to craft a deadly whip of flames. Fuel, Combustion, and Manipulate to turn buildings into towering sentient infernos.

Wood Accelerate a plant's growth Cross-pollinate a plant with another specimen to produce a hybrid seed Force a plant to bloom and bear its bounty

Possible Combinations: Accelerate and cross-pollinate to produce a fully-grown hybrid. Accelerate and bloom to grow a weed to unnatural size and cause it to spew hyper-allergenic pollen. Cross-pollinate and bloom to produce a gross of seeds (usually cross-pollinate only produces one hybrid, but this combination produces as many hybrids as the original would make seeds). Accelerate, Cross-pollinate, and Bloom to create a full crop of hybrid plants in an instant.

Water Call a Storm to make it rain (at low effect the storm is a single, sad cloud hovering over the dragon's head) Control the movement of liquid and even make it defy gravity Freeze or Melt any liquid at will

Possible Combinations: Call Storm and Control to manipulate liquid when none is readily available. Call Storm and Freeze to make a controlled burst of painful hail. Control liquid and Freeze to turn puddles into nail-guns. Call Storm, Control, and Freeze to build a deadly blizzard of knives.

Earth Disintegrate or Reintegrate a solid (Granite to Sand and vice-versa) Telekinesis, remote manipulation of a solid Vibration Control, magnifying or reducing the vibration of an object (instant mute button)

Possible Combinations: Disintegrate and Telekinesis to make quicksand. Reintegrate and Vibration magnification to cause an aftershock under the ground. Telekinesis and vibration magnification to shatter thrown rocks. Integrate, Telekinesis, and Vibration magnification to cause a tectonic shift and trigger an earthquake.

...I'm not too happy with Earth, so I'm going to stop for now.

CJC

Satchel wrote: While I question the advisability of the volcano symbology myself, I do second the lack of apparent need for dreamscape stuff — it's one of those things of dubious provenance wrt draconic headspace as far as I've seen.

I'm worried that if we dump the invisible realm completely then an Oroboros won't have enough to do, especially if someone is playing a pilgrim that's forced to stay on the road because they've got their Heart in chest.

But we CAN dump the Dreamtide for something completely different, even a new place written from scratch that doesn't fit these other cosmologies.

Strangely, now I'm picturing level 9 of Super Castlevania; halls and halls of golden treasures strewn about willy-nilly. And now I'm picturing weird warping libraries like the ones from Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC. What if we were to write up a 'missing left sock' realm, filled with beautiful indescribable hoarder garbage that only a dragon could find value within. It would let us keep the two other supernatural creatures introduced in the book. Deep Ones would be trying to hoard EVERYTHING in the dimension, including all perceivable life, and Shayatin would become goldphages, surviving by the physical consumption of valuables (this would make Shayatin that break free of these golden Halls, or Jormungandr's Treasury, the ultimate pests to a Dragon's personal stash).

Back to Edicts: the proposed Metal adjustment renders Artillery and Ruin (and Mutilation to a degree) mostly irrelevant. Many other Edicts have a lot of overlap too, so the final numbers after this adjustment might be further from 25 and closer to 10 (lowball estimate).

Let's see where some pruning could be applied: Camaraderie could easily be divided up between Network and Assembly (both of which are pretty essential and independent due to the scope of their application). Husbandry is staying put, because it's awesome. I think Due Process will be easy to salvage, considering its laws are the best representation of how an Edict's powers are supposed to cooperate. Hysteria and Rampage would fill each other's gaps fairly well. Trance is a train-wreck. If the Remit Law is replaced with the Regenerate Law from Mutilation (coupled with suffering lethal wounds from the limb's reattachment), then the Hippocratic Edict will fit the new arrangement. Oath needs to be saved, but I don't know how to do it at the moment. We'll count it as staying put. Phantom's first law is worth salvaging... perhaps we'll roll that into a shadow Edict. Polygraphy should be adjusted to be strictly related to the detection of lies. I'm picturing three laws, one that reveals lies of omission, one that reveals exaggerations, and another that reveals outright fibs. The three together give the proclaiming Oroboros complete detection of a target's dishonesty.

So... with the five current elemental Edicts that comes to a total of... 14. So close to three per Philosophy! Metal Fire Water Earth Wood Assembly Network (Name flexible) Husbandry Forgery (Formerly Due Process) Rampage (Incorporating Hysteria) Hippocratic Shadow (Formerly Phantom, swallowing the Void Step and Shadow Bend suggestions from earlier) Oath Polygraphy

OH! I forgot Comfort!

Narcotics (formerly Comfort)

That makes three per philosophy, unless Shock truncates a philosophy or adds a sixth.

I'll go into plausible laws and combinations for these another time.

Shock

I would like to say right now that I am actually undergoing several non-RPG related projects right now (learning the python programming language, setting up a home IT lab, etc) and the reemergence of Dragon caught me completely off guard. I'm still thinking about toying with the Philosophies right now as well.

And Vree is somewhat correct. The Philosophies as they are written right now are more akin to Promethean's Refinements than actual organizations. The reasoning behind this is we thought that the game would benefit from a system that would allow for the social implication of Dragons simply becoming less and less until they reach the point where a few of them simply start thinking that they are the last one on earth. A system that is dependent on organizations would start to fall apart as the number of Dragons start to start heading below a certain tipping point. Hence why we threw most of the organization stuff into Providences.

That and we simply don't want to blatantly rip off Vampire's Covenants.

This being said, it seems like we cut out a lot of potential content for the sake of giving ST some flexibility on numbers so I'm not surprised that more than a few people are saying that they are nothing more than hollow shells. Perhaps it could be an interesting opportunity for a young Dragon to join a Philosophy while it's still in the organization stage and start to personalize it's tenets when the membership starts to drop.

Gravitas man

Dragon thoughts

Glad you thought my ideas had some merit. I like your own take on True-Hearts a lot. The idea of them finding it hard to masquerade due to a glowing heart is pretty cool. I agree as well that True-Hearts should not get overly special powers compared to regular Dragons; they should be just slightly different. An analogy would be a high-humanity Vampire (say a 9 or 10). The setting assumes that they exist but they are pretty rare and in many ways have a harder time of living as they do.

After giving some thought of the problem of heart-removal versus staying as a True-Heart, perhaps True-Hearts should have a different origin. Perhaps True-Hearts are born naturally to two pilot lights, in very rare occurrences. They never consumed a Dragon heart, they were BORN with one. Perhaps they have the added disability of never being able to remove their own hearts, which makes them a prime target for Heart-seekers. Functionally they would have the regular powers of a Dragon but I really like Vree’s idea of the glowing red heart of resurrection. The fact that they cannot effectively remove their heart would put them in a lot of danger, from hunters, other Orobori and Hydra. The irony being that True-Hearts could represent the survival of Dragons as a species but that the majority of the population would rather cut that heart out (killing the True- Heart in the process?); where upon it would function as a regular Dragon heart from there on out. This way True-Hearts could serve to be a plot hook for regular characters as an NPC, or an interesting take for a PC to take. My only worry is that this idea makes them a little mary sueish, which is not my intention at all.

I also love the idea that Dragons can draw breath through another Dragon’s heart. That kind of dog eat dog mechanic is perfect for facilitating Dragon vs Dragon conflict. I like the idea that PCs could use this co-operatively too, this could be the ultimate sign of trust among Dragons.

I don’t really think that the “horror of eternity” really fits Dragon’s themes or mechanics very well. Also it has been explored by Vampire and Mummy. I think Body Horror and Power Corrupts is a much better fit for the tone of the game. Becoming a Dragon changes you and corrupts your body. You are becoming more monstruous. Power can literally corrupt you and your body. You’ve got the mental horror of “power corrupting” and Dragons becoming more Tyrannical as their Furnance increases. I think there could be a physical component to this and I think some horror can really be eked out of how fucking disgusting creating some of the ablutions are and possibly the long term affect this has on the human body. Dragons actually choose to become Dragons . They choose to become monsterous, the consequences of this could be examined. Body Horror also hits a niche that isn’t really covered by other NWOD games (that I am aware of.) I think this could be portrayed by emphasising the body horror of the Dragon’s antagonists I particular. This process is already underway given the depiction of Hydra. But with this theme in mind, I have some ideas for the Deep Ones and how they interact with Dragons.

Deep Ones

The Deep Ones for reasons to be determined (perhaps the above suggest, regarding stealing treasure) sometimes act in the physical realm. They have two ways of doing so. Firstly they can possess humans. These humans act and look human, and a Dragons X-sense can-not tell the difference between them and a regular. This human can use Ablutions that the Deep One itself can. ( In a perverse twist of bond of blood). The problem becomes that a human body can-not maintain these Ablutions seamlessly, and over continual use the body becomes corrupted and cannot hide its Ablutions. The strain eventually becomes too much and the body crumbles.

This video is a little more extreme then what I had in mind but the idea is there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdOnUtHamko

(Using the video above the Deep One Agent would be the one who crumbles away after being “shot”)

One powerful Deep One can potentially maintain several humans at once for this purpose. Usually they are covert and used to discover more about the Dragon (such as the contents and location of its hoard and ideally its Heart). An ideal ploy for a Deep One is to entrench one of its agent with a Dragon, perhaps becoming a Maiden, biding its time before unexpectedly the human suddenly gains armoured skin and spikes protruding from its elbows before attacking the Dragon.

I think an enemy like this could add to the mood of paranoia of the game. It would also allow the Deep Ones to possess different levels of threat depending on the game required. The Dragons could defeat some of their agents for now, but the Deep One would still be out there waiting. This would make Deep Ones a potentially more active force against Dragons. This would also give some incentive for PCs to form a Den, perhaps to take a particularly powerful Deep One that has attacked or threatened all of the members at some point. A further add on idea from this. How does the Deep One possess the human in question? I think of it as a “Deal with the Devil” kind of situation. Perhaps the Deep One offers a gift in exchange for a service, this service would be weighed heavily against the individual. When they fail the Deep One then drags the humans “soul” (or whatever) away to an other realm. For some reason I kind of imagine a Deep One acting like the Sea-witch from the Little Mermaid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyFVG4VfPmg

The other realm the Deep Ones inhabit could be the dream-tide, Astral realm or the Flotsom and Jetson world CJC suggested above; whatever you guys decide. Say the human possessed by the Deep One is particularly dear to the Dragon’s heart. The potential is there for the Dragon to travel to such a place and reclaim their loved ones soul (and assuming the body isn’t too messed up, return it to the body). There is thus a balance between defeating the possessed human and not damaging them too much so that their body is not destroyed. Once the Dragons reach the other real the main obstacle would be the Deep One itself. The Dragon (or Den) would have to wrestle with the Deep One on their own turf, or perhaps make a deal (sacrifice another Dragon’s heart perhaps?).

This way the Deep Ones could act as a threat that covers the physical world and whatever other realm you decide to go with.

The final idea a Deep One possessing a Dragon, can be a true abomination. I imagine that these would largely act like Hydra but maybe with some unique powers that are a combination of a Deep Ones powers and the Dragons’ abilities themselves. These could act as special warriors for the Deep Ones, and perhaps a Deep One can only walk the physical world in a Dragon body. This would be their incentive to hunt Dragons. Mechanically, you could probably cobble together a powerful foe from the existing powers and mechanics. Perhaps a Deep One possessed Dragon could freely pick from all Ablutions and wouldn’t be limited by an suit, they could thus use powers in interesting combinations rather than having an specific power.

Vree

Shock wrote: I would like to say right now that I am actually undergoing several non-RPG related projects right now (learning the python programming language, setting up a home IT lab, etc) and the reemergence of Dragon caught me completely off guard. I'm still thinking about toying with the Philosophies right now as well.

I sympathize with you completely - the reason I called off Pathogen (temporarily) lst year ago was because it was difficult to make time for keeping my own thoughts on the matter orderly and written down proper, and at the same time ensure tht with everyone pulling it in different directions the game will still retain a direction and stays true to certain core themes. So I called off with the intention that I would make up my own mind first and go back to working with others when I have something to show them.

If you want to slow down, or everyone to focus on different stuff while you figure something out, I'll listen. That was the best advice I got from someone - "Just figure out & tell everyone what they should work on".

Shock wrote: The reasoning behind this is we thought that the game would benefit from a system that would allow for the social implication of Dragons simply becoming less and less until they reach the point where a few of them simply start thinking that they are the last one on earth.

When I first came to Dragon, before even reading any of it, that actually was the picture in my imagination. I have not read any of the Heart stuff yet; what I imagined was a game of these giant lizards, relics of a bygone age, going deeper and deeper in hiding, keeping the fire going and guarding and preserving these ancient secrets (that may not matter to anyone but them anymore).

However, you missed that chance when you defined dragons not as creatures wearing human forms, but as humans having stolen the power of dragons.

There are certain things that make the Last Of My Kind trope work. Sadness over friends, family race and culture lost; responsibilities and problems no-one around can understand; desperation for finding a mate, etc.

But for Embers players, all that stuff is the human race. It's your memories with human friends & family and that culture that defines you. You can not be the lonely stranger in humanland, because that's where you belonged in the first place. You're looking at the Dominion, the time of dragons, not as a victim, but as an outsider, or, in fact, as as a member of the side that brought that era to an end.

You could put the player in the shoes of such a creature, trying to preserve what remains of that identity (despite the fact that you yourself do not always remember clearly anymore; sometimes you think you're a human, imagining that she is a dragon). But it'd be a big change of POV.

Promethean could pull off that theme - being completely alone, aside from a small circle of friends you took a long journey to assemble. I doubt Dragon could do it, though.

That may have been a desing goal once, but there are many factors working against it now. Unfortunately it seems that at some point in production two themes clashed and I can not think a way of furthering one without cuting down on the other.

The second cause is that the Heart makes dragons practically unkillable. I do not know at what point the Heart granting practical immortality crept in, but it quite effectively kills any feeling of slowly dying.

The way things look right now is that: 1. Dragons live practically forever, and can not die before their time (eg. in an accident or to murder). 2. If a Dragon is assassinated, 90% of the time it's because someone wants to replace her, so the membership number stays the same. 3. Destroying a Heart is a hanging offense, ensuring that the number of Hearts remains constant.

If you wanted to emphasize the fact that dragons are slowly dying, you should have done it so that 1. Dragons are mortal. Not only they are quite capable of dying of old age, but various new conditions inflicted by the new world (Fossilization?) and threats (Heart-hunters?) constantly prey on them, hastening their extinction. 2. Dragons are quite capable of dying a final death the first time it happens. 3. Destroying the Heart seems a very good idea for many dragons who want to get rid of their foes.

If the game needs an extinction theme, the only go-to point I can imagine is the Old Dragons. Maybe there are still a few around, but even those few are gradually hunted down by Oroboroi looking for Hearts. When they are all gone, that'll be the end of new Hearts - Oroboroi will pobably keep on existing for centuries to come, fighting for the Hearts that remain, but over time their numbers, too, will recede.

"Good" Oroboroi may try to preserve the few dragons there are, but there are several factors working against their survival. A. Dragons aren't friendly. It is difficult to make people sympathize with them when they are monsters and a nuisance. A dragon sleeping under a mountain B. Dragon's can't coexist with the modern world. Humanity now owns all the territories where they could live, so there is less and less living space. The stuff they used to leave on, natural resources and whatnot, is scarce and contaminated as well. C. Breeding (the creation of new dragons) is complicated. It demands: 1. for the dragon to be interested - most are so depressed they hardly even care. 2. for two dragons of different genders to meet and mate - again, the scarcity of dragons works against this. 3. that the egg survives - dragon eggs probably take ridiculous times to hatch (at least a decade) and are the focus of mortals and Oroboroi alike for their properties. (Pearl/Attra/new Heart?) 4. that the hatchling survives - as if spitting in the face of survival on purpose, dragons are horrible parents who leave the egg as soon as it is about to hatch, making the newborn true dragon easy prey for Heart-hunters.

It would make it simpler to explain where Hearts come from if a few dragons were still around for sure. 'Cause otherwise, it's the very same Hearts that have been passed around for millenia.

--- Now, for me a question is: should we WANT this theme? Do you want another Promethean? Or, for example, Leviathan the Tempest also defines itself as a "game of isolation" (the Leviathan is alone and separated from humanity). That actually was one of the things that very much kept me AWAY from that game. I could not just "feel" the attraction of being this total loner.

I myself positioned Dragon society halfway between Vampire and Promethean mentally. There is a social structure, but it is spread out, with about one dragon per city rather than every major city having dozens of vampires. Dragons are like the rulers of distant kingdoms - aware of each other, exchanging the occassional letter and visit, but by and large would not keen on sharing with another of their kind in their territory.

The suggestion that there may be many dragons in a region (mentioned in this thread, did CJC say it?) was a surprise to me because I imagined dragons to be a lot more scarce.

I think those two core things you have now, the Heart and the "sadness of extinction and eternity" are mutually incompatible. It is one or the other.

Shock wrote: And Vree is somewhat correct. The Philosophies as they are written right now are more akin to Promethean's Refinements than actual organizations. The reasoning behind this is we thought that the game would benefit from a system that would allow for the social implication of Dragons simply becoming less and less until they reach the point where a few of them simply start thinking that they are the last one on earth. A system that is dependent on organizations would start to fall apart as the number of Dragons start to start heading below a certain tipping point. Hence why we threw most of the organization stuff into Providences.

I'm arguing for the most part that even if you define the groups as philosophies, then you need to define them better, past a single sentence mission statement followed by personality traits.

You are not even at Promethean level yet. Prometheans have a reason to be a part of a Refinement (because it is their path to humanity), and the core goal mission of each has a relation to what they are (a way to understand what makes one human etter). When I read that Sweat teaches that pain is the taskmaster of life, I don't see 1. what special relevance that has to being a dragon, 2. what a dragon can hope to achieve with it.

That is why I suggest stuff like finding out what cause each group attributes to the Collapse, what their opinion about it is (was it right/was it wrong), and how they want to make it right.

It does not have to be about the Dominion after all. Maybe dragons all have something bestial in their nature they must control, and they have different paths for that. Or...whatever. But you need a reason that is relevant to being a dragon.

If something is a widespread philosophy, then it is something that is either written down or kept alive by word of mouth, with a set of specific goals and promises. Go to any self-help book, any religion for inspiration.

It is imposible to say that "all dragons follow these five schools" without justifying why these specific schools have become the most relevant, and how dragons learn about them in the first place.

Or, if you want to group philosophies by stuff the dragon can come up with herself, then you need to be a lot broader to encompass everything players may come up with.

There are many justifications why the - Mage for example explains that all five Traditions were parts of Atlantean society (except for one - the Free Council - that came and got admitted later, and the Seers Of The Throne becoming a "lost faction").

Vampire's Ordo Dracul is in fact a remarkably good example of how a RL "philosophy" might emerge. Vampire has 2 social organizations, 2 religions, and 1 "philosophy".

PaladinDemo wrote: Wait till you see the Dynasties.

Can we see them now? :p

Satchel wrote: I understand the desire for B-splats, but none of the official limited lines have one, really, and I'm not sure there's any particularly well-known body of inspiration to draw upon without looking at what we technically mean by "dragon" in terms of creature-category.

Ensorcelled (and Fae-Touched) in Changeling; the ex-Prometheans (mortals with remaining Promethean powers); Mediums for Geist (from "The Book Of The Dead").

I'm not saying we should do it because everyone is doing it; but rather that B-splats are quite a natural thing to happen, both as the "mortal servant" (Ghouls and Sleepwalkers) and the "halfway there people" (Wolf-Blooded or Fae-Touched), or any other role they can represent for a splat.

I like the B-splats (Dragon-Blooded and Bond Of Brood) because I imagine dragon society as something like a feudal (or Eastern) monarchy and the B-splats as the supporting rules in that structure. Vampire leaders are supported by other vampires, a Dragon is supported by mortal characters (mortal staff/servants, Dragon-Born family and Bond Of Brooded confidants). That also results in an entirely different, more totalitarian power structure. Even if it is a benevolent dictatorship where the Dragon encourages democratic decisions, the Dragon is still the single decision maker whose decree enables that. And everyone under the Dragon would like to be next in line for that absolute power.

It may seem like the Vampire Prince is an authoritaritan ruler, but the position in fact relies on the power balance determined by what a city's vampire population wants and what the Covenants within the city want. A Dragon however is only answerable to himself. (As the only supernatural in a realm, his authority can not normally be challenged.)

Satchel

Vree wrote: Ensorcelled (and Fae-Touched) in Changeling; Ensorcelled are people under a pledge. Fae-Touched are problematically implemented and not accorded the same treatment as ghouls, wolf-blooded and Sleepwalkers besides. Quote: the ex-Prometheans (mortals with remaining Promethean powers); The Redeemed are rarer than Prometheans, typically have no more resistance to Disquiet than any other mortal, and are not guaranteed to have lingering benefits from an Athanor even if the bulk of such boons weren't roughly on-par with a single Supernatural Merit. Quote: Mediums for Geist (from "The Book Of The Dead"). See "roughly on-par with a single Supernatural Merit" and also note that they have no particular special interaction with the Bound.

Quote: I'm not saying we should do it because everyone is doing it; but rather that B-splats are quite a natural thing to happen, both as the "mortal servant" (Ghouls and Sleepwalkers) and the "halfway there people" (Wolf-Blooded or Fae-Touched), or any other role they can represent for a splat.

I like the B-splats (Dragon-Blooded and Bond Of Brood) because I imagine dragon society as something like a feudal (or Eastern) monarchy and the B-splats as the supporting rules in that structure. Vampire leaders are supported by other vampires, a Dragon is supported by mortal characters (mortal staff/servants, Dragon-Born family and Bond Of Brooded confidants). That also results in an entirely different, more totalitarian power structure. Even if it is a benevolent dictatorship where the Dragon encourages democratic decisions, the Dragon is still the single decision maker whose decree enables that. And everyone under the Dragon would like to be next in line for that absolute power.

None of which changes that pesky "what the fuck does this have to do with dragons?" problem that keeps popping up.

Vree

Satchel wrote: Vree wrote: Ensorcelled (and Fae-Touched) in Changeling; Ensorcelled are people under a pledge.

...Yes, and? Now would come the part where you explain why that is a problem. :p

You need to tell me this stuff, I'm apparently too dumb to guess.

Satchel wrote: Fae-Touched are problematically implemented and not accorded the same treatment as ghouls, wolf-blooded and Sleepwalkers besides. Quote: the ex-Prometheans (mortals with remaining Promethean powers); The Redeemed are rarer than Prometheans, typically have no more resistance to Disquiet than any other mortal, and are not guaranteed to have lingering benefits from an Athanor even if the bulk of such boons weren't roughly on-par with a single Supernatural Merit. Quote: Mediums for Geist (from "The Book Of The Dead"). See "roughly on-par with a single Supernatural Merit" and also note that they have no particular special interaction with the Bound.

I don't think that any of this is particularly relevant, whether something is a Merit or not, as well as power levels are adjustable and matter of the character POV (which side you are playing, servant or owner).

Sleepwalker is a merit, even though it offers no significant benefits (in fact, it could be considered a drawback, no defense against Mage attacks).

Ghoul is not a Merit, even though it comes with bigger benefits. "Regnant" however is a merit, so if you want an owner who pays your splat upkeep and is not a permanent nuisance to your character, you pay as much as a Wolf-Blooded.

Bond Of Brood is a merit, but it may as well not be, especially if the piece of heart can be reacquired. Then again, if the sub- splat is a player, then from their POV the minor splat status is an advantage so a Merit is appropriate. That's all there is to it.

Satchel wrote: None of which changes that pesky "what the fuck does this have to do with dragons?" problem that keeps popping up.

You should try to express your issues in more details than "this is not good" because for the life of me I can not figure out what you are suggesting sometimes.

Do you mean that if there are supporting splats, they need stronger dragon-myth themes?

Satchel

Vree wrote: Satchel wrote: Vree wrote: Ensorcelled (and Fae-Touched) in Changeling; Ensorcelled are people under a pledge.

...Yes, and? Now would come the part where you explain why that is a problem. :p

You need to tell me this stuff, I'm apparently too dumb to guess. When your "supernatural power" has a timer and a direct exit clause it kind of stops you from counting as a "splat."

Quote: Satchel wrote: Fae-Touched are problematically implemented and not accorded the same treatment as ghouls, wolf-blooded and Sleepwalkers besides. Quote: the ex-Prometheans (mortals with remaining Promethean powers); The Redeemed are rarer than Prometheans, typically have no more resistance to Disquiet than any other mortal, and are not guaranteed to have lingering benefits from an Athanor even if the bulk of such boons weren't roughly on-par with a single Supernatural Merit. Quote: Mediums for Geist (from "The Book Of The Dead"). See "roughly on-par with a single Supernatural Merit" and also note that they have no particular special interaction with the Bound.

I don't think that any of this is particularly relevant, whether something is a Merit or not, as well as power levels are adjustable and matter of the character POV (which side you are playing, servant or owner). When the degree to which you are magic is equivalent to or less than the effects conferred by possession of an Unseen Sense, you have little to no interaction with the A-splat you are connected to, and/or it's plausible that a member of the A- splat might never meet one of your kind compared to one of their own, you're kind of far from the core to be claiming to be a B-splat.

Quote: Sleepwalker is a merit, even though it offers no significant benefits (in fact, it could be considered a drawback, no defense against Mage attacks). Sleepwalker is also irreversible, situationally heritable, and cause for interest and interaction with the A-splat from either side. That heritability further ties into the source material's notions of families with magic "in the blood" in a fashion that gives cause for mages interested in having a support-structure composed of members of a group with a quality they can't reliably produce on their own to make overtures toward said families.

Quote: Ghoul is not a Merit, even though it comes with bigger benefits. Because it's a permanent change that can go into remission without losing you the qualities from your sheet altogether. Also heritable (and in fact easily produced roughly on-demand) and even more directly cause for interaction with the A-splat.

Quote: Bond Of Brood is a merit, but it may as well not be, especially if the piece of heart can be reacquired. Then again, if the sub- splat is a player, then from their POV the minor splat status is an advantage so a Merit is appropriate. That's all there is to it. It also has basically nothing to do with any bit of dragon lore as I understand the headspace and operates through a mechanism that doesn't follow from the metaphysics the game presents for the Oroboroi. That is a problem.

Quote: Satchel wrote: None of which changes that pesky "what the fuck does this have to do with dragons?" problem that keeps popping up.

You should try to express your issues in more details than "this is not good" because for the life of me I can not figure out what you are suggesting sometimes.

Do you mean that if there are supporting splats, they need stronger dragon-myth themes? Yes. I had been under the impression that "what the fuck does this have to do with dragons?" was an obvious enough implication that as presented the templates appear to have little basis in the source material or the execution of the A-splat.

Vree

Satchel wrote: Quote:

Do you mean that if there are supporting splats, they need stronger dragon-myth themes? Yes. I had been under the impression that "what the fuck does this have to do with dragons?" was an obvious enough implication that as presented the templates appear to have little basis in the source material or the execution of the A-splat.

Lowercase D. Makes it difficult to guess if it you mean dragons or Dragons, the trope or the splat.

Sleepwalkers: I'm not really seeing how "magic in the blood" is a better case than "dragon in the blood".

Why and how is heritability more applicable to mages than dragons?

Ghouls: Are you arguing for it being worse than a Merit or better than a Merit? Heritability, option to regain mere mortal splat on need and keeping acquired Devotions that reactivate if status is regained that you mention all seem like advantages over Sleepwalker to me.

Satchel wrote: has basically nothing to do with any bit of dragon lore as I understand the headspace and operates through a mechanism that doesn't follow from the metaphysics the game presents for the Oroboroi. That is a problem.

Once you buy the idea that the heart's the center of everything and it maintains a bond with the owner even if removed, using a piece of it to create a connection seems to me consistent with the rules as presented.

As for the headspace, shrug, it's pretty obvious "Dragonheart" inspired the authors much. The idea goes back to sympathetic magic, of course.

Satchel

Vree wrote: Satchel wrote: Quote:

Do you mean that if there are supporting splats, they need stronger dragon-myth themes? Yes. I had been under the impression that "what the fuck does this have to do with dragons?" was an obvious enough implication that as presented the templates appear to have little basis in the source material or the execution of the A-splat.

Lowercase D. Makes it difficult to guess if it you mean dragons or Dragons, the trope or the splat. Considering that I have conveyed concerns that the Oroboroi also had a number of questionably draconic traits I had figured it should be evident, but in case it needs saying, I am pretty much never going to refer to the Oroboroi as little-"d" dragons for precisely that reason.

Quote: Sleepwalkers: I'm not really seeing how "magic in the blood" is a better case than "dragon in the blood".

Why and how is heritability more applicable to mages than dragons? I can point to at least two popular works of fiction off the top of my head where magic runs in families. I cannot do the same for people with draconic heritage where dragons are an actually relevant and central aspect of their respective works.

Quote: Ghouls: Are you arguing for it being worse than a Merit or better than a Merit? I am pointing out why it's not a Merit. Quote: Heritability, option to regain mere mortal splat on need and keeping acquired Devotions that reactivate if status is regained that you mention all seem like advantages over Sleepwalker to me. Heritability comes from generations of creepy borderline (or not even borderline) inbreeding and eugenics to develop an occasional lucky retained ghoul pregnancy into a true-breeding slow-aging curse-having bloodline, regaining mortality comes at the expense of your age catching up with you, Disciplines keep the same use-costs, the most a ghoul can do to deal with the biological fallout of regularly consuming blood is purchase Iron Stomach, and the entire process comes at the cost of inevitable Vinculum and blood-addiction, neither of which go away with simple remission.

Quote: Satchel wrote: has basically nothing to do with any bit of dragon lore as I understand the headspace and operates through a mechanism that doesn't follow from the metaphysics the game presents for the Oroboroi. That is a problem.

Once you buy the idea that the heart's the center of everything and it maintains a bond with the owner even if removed, using a piece of it to create a connection seems to me consistent with the rules as presented. The metaphysics as established take the consumption of even one piece of a Heart as enough to grow a replacement in the new Oroboros. Cutting the thing into pieces and putting it in people to give them partial power doesn't follow from that example.

Vree

Satchel wrote: I can point to at least two popular works of fiction off the top of my head where magic runs in families. I cannot do the same for people with draconic heritage where dragons are an actually relevant and central aspect of their respective works.

Fair enough. It' the opposite for me, I could point to various places in myth and fiction about dragons interbreeding with mortals (Chinese/Japanese/Taiwanese calling themselves descendants of dragons or their historical dynasties doing the same, or Skyrim mentioned by @Frogs, just to bring up stuff already mentioned in this thread), while the only "Heritable magic" work I could recall right away is Harry Potter. Obviously, "magic" was attributed to countless things (the old 7th child born with 6 fingers story, for example) so I'd be surprised if there wasn't more. But unlike breeding with gods and monsters, magic also has a strong association with being a natural philosophy that is learnable by anyone. So if I had to say where the association is stronger, I'd definitely not pick mages...

Satchel wrote: The metaphysics as established take the consumption of even one piece of a Heart as enough to grow a replacement in the new Oroboros. Cutting the thing into pieces and putting it in people to give them partial power doesn't follow from that example.

A piece of heart enough to grow into a replacement, where did you read that?

Satchel

Vree wrote: Satchel wrote: The metaphysics as established take the consumption of even one piece of a Heart as enough to grow a replacement in the new Oroboros. Cutting the thing into pieces and putting it in people to give them partial power doesn't follow from that example.

A piece of heart enough to grow into a replacement, where did you read that?

"The only way to become a member is to eat the heart of an old member, and with the first bite that fate is sealed."

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most people can't eat something the size of a human fist in one bite. Since the Oroboroi can heal with Breath and the Heart both is a different shape from the human heart and has metaphysical baggage from previous owners…

Quote: Satchel wrote: I can point to at least two popular works of fiction off the top of my head where magic runs in families. I cannot do the same for people with draconic heritage where dragons are an actually relevant and central aspect of their respective works.

Fair enough. It' the opposite for me, I could point to various places in myth and fiction about dragons interbreeding with mortals (Chinese/Japanese/Taiwanese calling themselves descendants of dragons or their historical dynasties doing the same See, that's why I attached the "relevant and central aspect" rider; if the dragon parent is just symbolic shorthand for "born powerful" then you'd have better luck playing the descendent than the dragon.

Quote: the only "Heritable magic" work I could recall right away is Harry Potter. That and Dresden were the two that immediately came to mind for me. Quote: Obviously, "magic" was attributed to countless things (the old 7th child born with 6 fingers story, for example) so I'd be surprised if there wasn't more. But unlike breeding with gods and monsters, magic also has a strong association with being a natural philosophy that is learnable by anyone. The Proximi dynasties pretty much seem to cover things that include magical power as granted boons passed down through the generations and divine bloodlines, is the thing.

Quote: So if I had to say where the association is stronger, I'd definitely not pick mages... Wolf-blooded being the purest strains of Luna and Father Wolf's bloodline has inarguably the strongest claim on Magical Genetics, but ghoul families and Proximi are pretty strong contenders. Meanwhile, changelings and Prometheans are mostly sterile and any unusual offspring tend to be contained to the first generation, while the Bound come from so many different places to begin with and the strengthening factors are so diverse that "Mediums are proto-Bound" doesn't really stand out all that much even if there were any concrete indication that psychic powers and the mark of death were owed to much more than the hand of fate.

Vree

Satchel wrote:

"The only way to become a member is to eat the heart of an old member, and with the first bite that fate is sealed."

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most people can't eat something the size of a human fist in one bite. Since the Oroboroi can heal with Breath and the Heart both is a different shape from the human heart and has metaphysical baggage from previous owners…

Ouch. I'm more prone to attributing to bad sentence composition. It's pretty clear that multiple people can not share on the same heart.

And yes, I believe the authors imagined you swallowing the heart whole. (Fuggen magic, how does it work?)

Then again, they imagined you to do a lot of things. (I still don't know where people are supposed to learn about removing the heart maing you immortal, or why that'd be preferable to leaving it in.)

Or how they are supposed to come to the Method in the first place.

That was another reason I held the sub-splats (mortal servants, Dragon-Born, Bond Of Brooded) so important. Because there needs to be a human resource from where people can make the jump to dragonhood. Unfortunately, that requires that people acquire the heart by their own will (because that determines their Method) and already know what to do do with it (biting into a monster organ is not an idea likely to come to most people naturally). I tried to come up with all sorts of justifications for that. That mortals are subconsciously compelled to kill dragons. Some ancestral memory that identifies the dragon as "the enemy" and drives them to moments of madness when they lash out against her. And when they come buy and try to ponder what happened, they realize that the person they killed was a monster and something id glowing in their chest. Or that the heart supernaturally "speaks" to mortals (a reinterpretation of Heartbeat) and that's why they know they must eat it.

But those are awkward save attempts. The only good solution is if there are enough people around the dragon already "in the know".

Sure, it is also possible that the dragon gives the heart away willingly. Which makes everyone an Inheritor. I tried to build that into the morality stat, the Mandate, and by extension the rules of dragon society, to create a plausible explanation for why the dragon would do something that results in their death.

But the whole "heart" question is really really wobbly. I'm still waiting for the time when it will make sense.

CJC

What if all mortals can draw Breath from the Heart by holding it, and if they keep it in direct contact with them long enough (like Xiao Sheng) it attunes to them, turning them into an Oroboros and causing the original owner to fossilize (since they don't have any Breath to stave it off anymore).

As the Heart functions as a wealth magnet, it is always at the center of a pile of riches. Mortals who discover these riches (by any one of the methods, though Trickster's a bit tricky in this model) will no doubt be intrigued by the bizarre living centerpiece of the collection.

This eliminates the need to consume or remove the heart and removes True Hearts from the picture (though those that keep the Heart in their immediate possessions, rather than with their hoard, might get a similar benefit). It also eliminates the need for characters to KNOW about the dragon condition before joining. The model would prevent a physical distinction between the usurper Oroboroi and the original dragons of old, though, and it also impedes on body horror (since there's no need for elective surgery). But maybe it spawns some too... if paranoia is a key element of the game then having this new heart surgically INSERTED into the chest cavity to keep it safe could be interesting... that is until the Heart begins beating so loudly that it sticks out like a sore thumb.

I'm feeling very good about Jormungandr's Treasury as an alternate dimension, though, instead of the Dreamtide. I'm working on some historical fluff that would encourage a dragon to hide their riches just outside the boundary of reality (and by working, I mean stewing around in my head because I've got other projects that are more pressing at the moment).

Vree

CJC wrote: Satchel wrote: While I question the advisability of the volcano symbology myself, I do second the lack of apparent need for dreamscape stuff — it's one of those things of dubious provenance wrt draconic headspace as far as I've seen.

I'm worried that if we dump the invisible realm completely then an Oroboros won't have enough to do, especially if someone is playing a pilgrim that's forced to stay on the road because they've got their Heart in chest.

But we CAN dump the Dreamtide for something completely different, even a new place written from scratch that doesn't fit these other cosmologies.

Strangely, now I'm picturing level 9 of Super Castlevania; halls and halls of golden treasures strewn about willy-nilly. And now I'm picturing weird warping libraries like the ones from Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC. What if we were to write up a 'missing left sock' realm, filled with beautiful indescribable hoarder garbage that only a dragon could find value within. It would let us keep the two other supernatural creatures introduced in the book. Deep Ones would be trying to hoard EVERYTHING in the dimension, including all perceivable life, and Shayatin would become goldphages, surviving by the physical consumption of valuables (this would make Shayatin that break free of these golden Halls, or Jormungandr's Treasury, the ultimate pests to a Dragon's personal stash).

Well, Shock envisioned the Lower Depths as some sort of cosmic dumping ground, you should ask him. Me, I'm not usre if it's Dragon. That sounds like Abyss creatures and whatnot to me. One folk made a splat attempt at rpg.netthtat was similar (Doppelganger was the splat, the Gap (cosmic dumping ground of stuff that could not be/noone cared about was the realm).

I ndon't think you need to try so hard adding these bonus worlds. Vampire never needed one. Should figure out how the this-world stories work first.

The Dominion, the Collapse, the original dragons & their motives, none of that ever got fleshed out. You are wasting an opportunity there. The game is called Embers for heavenssake. Figure out what that is all about.

Don't just casually add this extra stuff. Shock also said a bunch of stuff intended to be big themes that do not work at all. Heart is a mess. Provinces. Methods. Try to make what doesn't work add up to an intended theme first.

Eg. I had no idea why the Dominion would exist in the first place. The Skyrim history @Frogs linked helped me imagine some possibilities, but then came the whole volcano allusion and I thought that was great, but now I was imagining a compoletely different story (a world of fire smoke and scorched ground with some huge Mount Doom stuffs as the HQs of the dragons - symbolically, at least).

Need to get this all in shape, folks.

Gravitas Man

This is my attempt to define the Embers subtitle and ideally what I would like from a finished Dragon game.

The Embers

“Welcome Greenhorn. You made a choice. You choose to eat one of us. To become ONE of us. A blessing and a curse. Perhaps you were aware of what you were doing when you took your first bite. Perhaps the thumping heart over-whelmed your mind and you ate in an attempt for it to stop. Perhaps like Eve, you were whispered to and sweetly lied to by a snake; the eating of the heart a fun jaunt; the breaching of a minor taboo.

I doubt you know the full implications of the choice you’ve made are. If you are lucky, or skilled you may yet do so. Unlikely, though.

Let me give you a hint. Step closer. Look upon me. Don’t look so shocked. My flame burns hot, it takes a toll on the body. There? Better now? I look more familiar to you and less divine. More human?

Like a snake, I can shed my skin when I choose to but I can also put it back on again. In time, if you are lucky, or skilled you may yet do so. Unlikely, though.

We are Ourobori. We are part of a great chain that stretches back to when man first squatted in caves and learned to harness a flame. We are Prometheus. We stole fire from the gods and took it for ourselves. We are Eve. We have eaten from the tree of knowledge and transcended what we once were. We are usurpers of lordly might.

We are Ourobori. We carry a flame inside of us. Its ember starts small, but with time it can become a raging inferno.

We are Dragons. We are few. Hunted. Driven to dominate and consume those around us. Our flame is dwindling. We are beset with enemies. The Deep Ones that creep and whisper and subvert. The humans that would steal our fire. Our worst enemy being ourselves. But our flame is not extinguished. Our Embers can be nurtured into a roaring furnace once again. We can command the flame and claim our place as rulers of this world.

And you are going to help me. Not yet, Greenhorn. You are too young. Your flame is small. First you must survive . Nurture your flame; let it grow within you. Then you may be worthy. Then you may claim your place as a ruler. If you are lucky, or skilled you may have a chance. Unlikely, though.”

Embers. Embers is the subtitle of this game. Its about young Dragons trying to survive long enough to fan their own internal embers into a powerful unnatural force. Its about the Dragon race as a whole, their past glories, forgotten, if they ever existed at all. Its about these small, bright sparks on the edge of existence desperately trying to shine against the impending gloom of extinction. Embers is about older Dragons, becoming tyrannical, hoarding their wealth and power and squashing out the potential of younger upstarts. Embers is the aftermath of raging bonfire. Its about mighty struggles of will, wit and war against a ruined, ashen background. Embers is about choosing how to face extinction; do you consume others for your own gain and eventually let the fire die out or do you try to save others from extinction? Are Dragons even worth saving?

I think the cosmological backstory of the game should be the least important aspect of it. I think Vampire the Requiem could be a good guide, there is no clear backstory or origin. Where Dragons come from, is less important than what they do. The horror of Dragon should be the corrupting influence of power. Increasing furance makes a Dragon more corrupt in body and mind, usually a few noble dragons exist. I think Dragon should focus on the physical world and Dragon "politics." Tier 2 type games should be the main focus initially. I like the idea of a "Treasury" realm, for cosmic weirdness but that should be the purview of high furnace Dragons. I personally think that it should also be the home of the Deep Ones. Deep Ones hoarding over this treaury realm should provide a contrast to the actions of Dragons (perhaps Deep Ones are the original dragons if you want to keep that aspect of the backstory)

I like Vree's ideas on breath gathering. A Dragon has a Provience because he is driven to lord it over people, as this is a reliable way to draw breath. I think Proviene would best be represented similarly to the feeding ground merit from Blood and Smoke. I see Dragons as being interlopers. They don't really serve a function, like werewolves and their territory would not have a deep connection with the world. It would be their territory because the Dragon says it is.

Feeding grounds merit. http://forums.white-wolf...p;m=1668870#post1668870

If you use Vree's breath gathering ideas, you could make a session out of a Dragon actually just interacting with his choose domain and "feeding."

CJC

Okay, to summarize what we're going for (and elaborate on some topics, since I'm notoriously naughty in that regard):

Dragons, or rather Oroboros, are created when they consume a Heart, which historically has been depicted as a Pearl in the dragon's hand or hanging from their chin. The beat of the Heart will hypnotize a mortal into consuming it eventually, though while it is exposed it acts as a wealth magnet, drawing in treasure as well as replicating whatever happens to be nearby. It doesn't actually CREATE anything, it simply snatches it from somewhere else in the world. This is also why dragons remove their hearts, to once-again benefit from this magnetic pull (Heart removal and immortality will be disassociated, keep reading).

The Heart itself contains an entire world within it, a Treasury that an Oroboros becomes trapped within when she dies. True the halls of gold are tantalizing and indescribable, but they lead dragons further and further astray from the escape of this dimension, and there's a corrupting influence to the wealth. A dragon trapped in the Treasury starts to forget about being human. Her physical features also grow more and more grotesque the deeper she delves, until she is nothing more than a monster. Dragons that do escape don't come back the way they came, and dragons who are replaced while within this world become trapped there, growing further corrupted until they are a nothing more than a shadow of their former self. Every denizen in the Treasury is a previous owner of that particular Heart, so one visit to the Treasury should scare an Oroboros enough to keep them from dying a second time. There are benefits, however. Within the Treasury a dragon can take her true form without backlash, and she does not age while she remains in its bounds. Some world-weary dragons retreat into their Hearts to retire, usually leaving behind a trap-laden hoard to guard their Heart or bequeathing it to a new candidate.

When dragons ruled in plain sight by utilizing their powers over the forces of nature (Edicts), it was the time of Dominion. Like Gravitas described, they are the beacon of Prometheus, thieves of fire and pursuers of forbidden fruit. But power changes hands easily, and blatant exposure led to the grandiose fall of the Collapse. Subsequent dragons learned that to control man one must mimic him, so they found ways to hide their supernatural nature without sacrificing their claim to power (Philosophies).

Mimicking humans did not come without drawbacks, however. With a human body comes a human lifespan. In addition, shaking off the divine made putting it back on much more hazardous to the physical form. Their new bodies could not handle the strain of their former glory, and so were reduced to inferior hybrid forms. A great inferno had fallen to embers in the ash, and there simply isn't enough kindling to spark the fire up again. So in a way, the Embers refers to the glowing remnants of a once indescribable power that has been reduced to dust. In addition, it also describes the unavoidable death of that flame, the threat of fossilization that every new Oroboros must fight because of their human form. What was once a source of power now serves as an essential need for sustenance: dragons MUST collect the admiration of mortals, dragons MUST gather stashes of valuables, dragons MUST fill their bodies with the bounty of the land... simply to survive.

As for hoards, well... nearly everyone in the world has a collection of some form or another. An Oroboros is psychologically compelled to expand their collection to epic proportions, building a nest of their beloved 'things' on which they may rest their Heart. While a collection can be anything from famous potato chips to office supplies, an Oroboros hoard must consist of the most monetarily valuable members of such infatuations: she is driven to collect the cream of the crop, no matter what that crop might be.

So to summarize, the rewritten Oroboroi are motivated by greed and the need to sustain themselves. Their natural narcissism makes taking the role of a leader the best way to achieve these ends. When confronted with others of their species, though, they suffer the same downfall of any other narcissist: an inability to cope with someone else who is as 'good' as they are. Possessive, paranoid, self-involved, feuding self-appointed kings. Once more the Embers title comes into play; these small sparks of control could reignite the blaze of their former glory if they worked towards the same ends, but their isolationist distance prevents such cooperation. This doesn't mean that dragons cannot cooperate; it just means they don't play well with each other on a long-term basis. In any given city there are maybe MAYBE nine dragons (Fifteen if it's a huge metropolis), so the game is more about players poking at each other's castles than gathering together to face a monster of the week. Compromises for mutual benefit, alliances for the greater good, and double crosses should be emphasized by the Storyteller. Therefore each Province should only ever contain a single dragon.

...I kind of lost track of where I was going with that. I do have a request, though. Could we move back into mechanics? Its an easier topic for me to churn while I'm working on other projects.

Vree

Satchel wrote: I feel that the "dragons as leader-metaphors" claim hasn't been terribly well-supported, while we're on that subject.

Mandate, Provinces etc. If you want more state 'em

Gravitas Man wrote: Perhaps you were aware of what you were doing when you took your first bite. Perhaps the thumping heart over-whelmed your mind and you ate in an attempt for it to stop. Perhaps like Eve, you were whispered to and sweetly lied to by a snake; the eating of the heart a fun jaunt; the breaching of a minor taboo Eve was a dragon? That's badass as f#ck.

Maybe the snake in the garden of Eden idea could be mined more, idk

I always wanted a better excuse for why someone may eat a heart, but could never come up with a compelling reason, th forbidden fruit thing looks a bit promising.

Gravitas Man wrote: This is my attempt to define the Embers subtitle and ideally what I would like from a finished Dragon game. Cool stuff.

CJC

Vree wrote: ...because they seem like a good idea at the time.

1. Food meter

Why it is actually a very bad idea:

2. Heal-O-mats

Why it is actually a very bad idea:

3. The Dreamlands

But what to do...Ah, I got it: it'll be a place you visit in your dreams.

"There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it" -Oscar Wilde

I've started the rewrite. Here's a preview:

Quote: Dragon the Embers It's a game with dragons in it.

Do you like it? Perhaps I should revise it a little bit. I mean, it DOES end in a preposition, and that's never a good thing.

EDIT: Seriously, though, I have started the rewrite. And you've already gotten your way on points 1 and 3, so this was mostly just a prod.

As for point 2, well... Embers dragons literally use heat to reshape their bodies. Doesn't it seem weird that they wouldn't be able to do so to repair damaged tissue?

Vree

Lol, you're not seriously saying I managed to offend you, CJ'?

Even though I did say that I did say that I did not intend to bash anyone, but rather was trying to help the fanworks (which I love) and that I did not have any particular splat in mind. Those are all stuff that have appeared in 1-2 other games I've read/was involved in. We've talked about all of these topics in this thread already, if I wanted to bash this one in particular, why'd I make a new thread for it?

In fact, what inspired me was that I was reading @antijoke's new Pathogen draft and noticed that he was ALSO doing the healing Bashing, Lethal and Aggravated by default stuff.

Look me in the eyes. It wasn't you. It never was just you.

I hope you do not take it personally, because it was certainly not an attack, and especially not at you.

CJC wrote: Dragon the Embers It's a game with dragons in it. You know?...I never actually much cared for that dragon angle. I think we should lose it.

It should just be..."The Embers!" And instead of dragons, it should be a game about sharks.

And it shouldn't even be an RPG, but rather a detective novel...that is also a musical. use my ideas or your game is carp

Satchel

Vree wrote: CJC wrote: Dragon the Embers It's a game with dragons in it. You know?...I never actually much liked that dragon angle. I think we should lose it. niche protection demands it vampire, mage, changeling, all of them have dragons in them we need to stand on our own multiple of two feet and/or wings and/or other locomotor appendages

CJC

Vree wrote: I hope you do not take it personally, because it was certainly not targeted at you.

Of course I wasn't offended. That's why I joked about it (Hence the innocent smile at the end of the post).

Quote: CJC wrote: Dragon the Embers It's a game with dragons in it. You know?...I never actually much liked that dragon angle. I think we should lose it.

It should just be..."The Embers!" And instead of dragons, it should be a game about sharks.

And it shouldn't even be an RPG, but rather a detective novel...that is also a musical. use my ideas or your game is carp

Musical detective sharks? Don't you think that's a tired premise? : P

Anyway, I was thinking about your explanation about healing agg wounds, and perhaps we could remove that functionality entirely. Alternatively, perhaps Breath can only be used to treat wounds as they are inflicted. So an Oroboros cannot heal lethal wounds until Furnace 4, or agg wounds until Furnace 7.

...Actually, I never noticed it before, but wouldn't that technically be true already, since it has to be paid in full to recover? I can't remember if I gave the option for pay-by-installments (if I find it, it's history).

Vree

CJC wrote:

Musical detective sharks? Don't you think that's a tired premise? : P For the first time ever, you can enjoy JAWS the way it was meant to be enjoyed: from the POV of the shark!

Morality stat: Harvard Genetics Compact Energy stat: Mako Powers are called "Jumpings" (as in "jumping the shark")

CJC wrote: Alternatively, perhaps Breath can only be used to treat wounds as they are inflicted. So an Oroboros cannot heal lethal wounds until Furnace 4, or agg wounds until Furnace 7. What if you went for a variety of the dragon scale armor, and let the player pay Breath to downgrade damage as it is taken? So spending 1 Breath as you take Lethal damage would downgrade 1 point to Bashing. Similarly, spending 1 Breath could soak 2 Bashing. (Aggravated does not play in this one.)

It is not a problem if it is a bit powerful, since it is less useful than healing (unless you decide right away if you wanna spend the Breath, it is useless later, unlike healing which can work both immediately or later).

(Just a random idea, mind)

CJC

Vree wrote: What if you went for a variety of the dragon scale armor, and let the player pay Breath to downgrade damage as it is taken? So spending 1 Breath as you take Lethal damage would downgrade 1 point to Bashing. Similarly, spending 1 Breath could soak 2 Bashing. (Aggravated does not play in this one.)

It is not a problem if it is a bit powerful, since it is less useful than healing (unless you decide right away if you wanna spend the Breath, it is useless later, unlike healing which can work both immediately or later).

(Just a random idea, mind)

Actually that was one of the alternative functions I was considering for Impervious Hide (a number of incoming wounds are downgraded in severity equal to the points manifest). It's a variant of a house-rule that I use (I won't tell you the house- rule, because well it's not relevant right now and if I use the term it will sour you on the idea).

If I were to write something like this, though, it would need to be universally applicable to any kind of damage (to avoid the confusion of 'oh, that doesn't work on this damage type' that cWoD suffers with Soak). Also, it isn't as powerful as it sounds since it eats into the dragon's breath-per-turn (so an Oroboros below Furnace 3 would have to choose between being able to make an Edict or being able to reduce damage, and even then would only be able to soften one point of incoming damage). ...As I write it out, it definitely feels like a better fit for Impervious Hide than for Breath.

Part of me feels like Dragons should be really hard to actually harm, but once you succeed in hurting him the pain should stick. How about this? What if Breath could be spent to increase a resistance attribute, just like Willpower? This gives an Oroboros the opportunity to burn a lot of Breath defensively without actually influencing the Health meter or the damage system (which in turn makes the game more compatible without GMC if someone writes a rules update for it).

Vree

(my own rough asessment is: intro is fine X-splats are fine Ablutions are fine (small adjustments only, eg. Burrowing Body needs to be 1 Breath/scene not turn if Flying is also like that; Tricksters could benefit from a bit more finesse/speed or manip stuff instead of 4x poison, etc.) Y-splats need a rewrite (current 5 clarified, 5 evils losing the 2nd chara sheet) Edicts could use a bunch of tweaks (growing exp costs changed/justified, flavor text removed or made "darker", more mythic flavor) Province stuff/dragon history and society needs to be added (detailed explanation on Mandate rules, rules for how the Methods are viewed/enforced by tradition etc.) Heart mechanics need to be clarified Merits need some balancing/justification/explanation Dreamtide should lose the part where you enter it through another person (Changeling similarity) Bombastic combat rules should be simplified DoD/Tell/True Form individual roles and purposes should be clarified

Even if we don't do larger changes to anything and keep things mostly the same as now, those are the minimum IMHO that are absolutely needed.)

CJC

Just to let everybody know, I AM still working on this project. I'm currently in the middle of the Fall semester so I cannot dedicate a grand amount of time to the effort, but I am making progress (slow as it may be) as well as coming up with additional ways to improve the thematic elements of the game.

I have worked on thematic systems to:

 Make the Oroboroi more closely resemble the weather spirits that Asiatic Dragon myths represent  Make the Oroboroi more closely resemble the greedy monsters that European Dragon myths represent  Increase the body horror involved in the game, and  Emphasize the ruler portrayal

One such system is a major overhaul of the splat's morality, replacing Ethics (and no, I'm not just changing names because I am crazy. The system is legitimately distinct and the term Ethics does not fit).

I will share this adjustment, as frankly I'm proud of what I came up with (though technically it is a pseudo-ripoff of a Mummy the Arisen mechanic). It also helps to prep the game for a GMC compatibility patch, which is a bonus.

So I present the Ethics replacement, Honor

Honor Honor replaces Morality. Unlike Morality, Honor does not have specific ‘sins’ that an Oroboros commits. Rather, it has severaltrusts that the Oroboros keeps. Betrayal of these trusts will grant an Oroboros Breath (it is the ONLY way for an Oroboros to acquire Breath), but too much betrayal damages the trust, as well as the Honor of the Oroboros. Trusts are displayed to the right of the Honor track, and like Ablutions they have both dots and points. When a trust is betrayed, one of its points is depleted. When a trust is honored, one mark is erased. Should a trust be betrayed when there are no points left to deplete, all marks on that trust are erased and one dot of the trust is discarded (Breath is still gained in this instance). In such cases the dragon also loses a dot of Honor automatically, and must roll for derangements. There are four trusts:

Collection (1 Breath) Starts with 3 dots. Collection is the trust that a dragon holds with her hoard. Trust is betrayed primarily by feeding components of the hoard to her Heart. Collection trust can be restored by making a significant contribution to the hoard. For example, getting a single common bottle-cap would not restore a trust, but collecting one from a limited or new brew might. Alternatively, collecting fifty common bottle-caps to increase the size of the hoard is just as effective. Quantity or Quality function identically; a large contribution of low-quality collectibles or a small contribution of a rarer piece, it matters not. To increase the dots available in this trust, a dragon must actively work to grow the size of her hoard and then pay (new dots) experience.

Constituents (2 Breath) Starts with 2 dots. Constituents is the trust that a dragon holds with her province. Trust is betrayed when a dragon harms her province, its people, or creates a scandal. The trust is directly related to the perception: if a murder remains a secret it will not betray the trust (which means no danger to the trust, but also no Breath gained). Constituent trust can be restored by improving the province or by aiding the constituents with their problems. For example, handing someone a tissue after they sneeze would not restore a trust, but offering to give them time off for the doctor might. Again, quality or quantity function identically; many small gestures are just as effective as a grand show of charity. To increase the dots available in this trust, a dragon must work to increase the influence of her province (or expand its borders) and then pay (new dots x 2) experience.

Consort (5 Breath) Starts with 1 dot. Consort is the trust that a dragon holds with her maiden. In this model, a dragon may only have one maiden at a time, a muse that inspires her near or far. Trust is betrayed when a dragon uses her maiden to replenish herself (by controlling him in some manner, be it compelling a performance or even simply frightening him). Consort trust can be restored when a dragon treats the maiden well, sometimes lavishly in a short stretch or sometimes more consistently over the course of a few days. At low dots of trust, the Oroboros might not even interact directly with the maiden. As the dots increase the relationship grows, sometimes leading to ‘towering’, where the Oroboros takes the maiden in and hides him from the world (I know, it's weird to refer to the maiden as 'him', but since I always refer to the player with the feminine pronoun and since 'maiden' is a gender-neutral mechanic in DtE we'll make do). To increase the dots available in this trust, a dragon must work to increase her connection to the maiden, and then pay (new dots x 5) experience.

Contemporaries (Full Breath) Starts with no dots. Contemporaries is the trust that a dragon holds with others of her kind (they are a wary and paranoid lot, which is why this trust starts so low). This trust is betrayed when a dragon violates one of the core beliefs of the Oroboroi (eating a second Heart, surrendering, refusing a challenge, refusing to uphold an agreement. Like with Constituents, the trust is only betrayed when the secrets are revealed. No reveal, no loss of trust, but no Breath either). Contemporary trust is very difficult to restore, and should be the result of an arduous endeavor. The Oroboroi community may require great trials or even force the Den to make amends for the actions of one of its debaucherous members. Increasing the dots of Contemporaries trust requires showing that the Oroboros is a righteous individual that can resist temptations. By proving she is a dragon of her word, and then paying (new dots x 8) experience, the dots in this trust may be increased. A minimum number of dots in the Contemporaries trust are required to join a dynasty.

To recover or increase Honor (and possibly treat some of those derangements!), a dragon must make a pledge not to betray one of her four trusts. If she keeps this pledge for a reasonable length of time (based on her current level of honor), she may spend experience to increase her Honor dots. To be devoid of Honor is to be severed from the state of dragonhood. Fossilization shortly follows.

This mechanic not only makes the game more compatible with GMC (since it eliminates individual sins), but also emphasizes the hoarder aspects of dragonhood AND a primary component of leadership: the only way to power is the betrayal of those that support you.

Mockup:

Honor------Trusts 10 O [______]------Collection (1 Breath) -9 O [______]------OOOOOOO -8 O [______]------[][][][][][][] -7 O ______------Constituents (2 Breath) -6 O ______------OOOOOOO -5 O ______------[][][][][][][] -4 O ______------Consort (5 Breath) -3 O ______------OOOOOOO -2 O ______------[][][][][][][] -1 O ______------Contemporaries (Full Breath) ------OOOOOOO ------[][][][][][][]

So my question is this: is there some grievous oversight in this system? I think it could really make the splat a lot of fun to play if it's executed properly.

EDIT: Sample cases Quote:

Case 1

An Oroboros has one dot in the Consort trust (and 7 dots in Honor) and wishes to recover some Breath. Consort (5 Breath) OOOOOOO [][][][][][][]

She convinces the consort to dance for her, thus betraying the trust by manipulating her maiden into performing.

OOOOOOO [X][][][][][][]

By doing so, she adds 5 Breath to her pool. The next day, without taking any effort to bring the relationship back to equal footing, she makes this demand of the maiden again. The trust is betrayed, garnering another 5 Breath. But the trust has been over-stressed.

OOOOOOO [X][X][][][][][] becomes OOOOOOO [][][][][][][]

The maiden is unnerved by the bizarre and pushy nature of his relationship with the Oroboros, and so he begins to avoid her. In addition, because the Oroboros has acted parasitically (by consistently bossing the maiden around), she damages her honor, reducing it to 6. Rolling three dice, she fails and acquires a derangement.

Case 2

An Oroboros has 3 dots in her Collection trust and 7 dots of Honor. She wants to acquire some quick breath to stave off fossilization and prepare herself for the day. As such, she feeds a portion of her hoard to the Heart.

OOOOOOO [X][X][X][][][][]

She has thrice betrayed the trust with her collection, and thus gets three payouts of 1 Breath each. Wishing to restore the balance with her collection, she sets out and plunders a prized piece that she has been coveting for quite a while. This action helps restore trust to the collection:

OOOOOOO [X][X][][][][][] thus removing one of the marks.

Case 3

An Oroboros has no dots in her Contemporaries trust and 7 dots of Honor. She betrays the trust of her kind by making a promise to a challenging mortal and then refusing to keep her end of the bargain. She has betrayed the trust and thus fully replenished her Breath. BUT! With no dots in the trust, she also automatically loses one dot of Honor for her transgression. She must roll for derangement.

Case 4

An Oroboros has fallen on the path to Honor and wishes to reclaim some manner of her formal standing. She decides she will not violate the trust of her province for a set length of time (so she mustn't betray the Constituents trust). Since her Honor is low, the time dedicated is small (3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 2 months, 4 months, 1 year, 5 years, 40 years). She goes two weeks without drawing Breath from her province. She may thus spend experience to increase her Honor rating.

Case 5

An Oroboros has recently made some ambitious acquisitions in her province. She even thoroughly routed a rival dragon and forced him into subordination (helping to restore some trust with her Contemporaries). Because she has increased her standing with her Constituents, she has the opportunity to spend experience to increase the dots in the Constituents Trust. Since she also showed her power and promise to the Oroboroi, she has the opportunity to spend experience to increase the dots in the Contemporaries Trust.

Satchel wrote: CJC wrote: So my question is this: is there some grievous oversight in this system? I think it could really make the splat a lot of fun to play if it's executed properly.

Going from the initial once-over, it looks alarmingly like bookkeeping for bookkeeping's sake. I'd go into greater detail, but it's nearly 2AM and I have class in the morning, so that'll have to wait.

It may sound like book-keeping when you skim it, but the system is replacing:

 Tracking specific sins against a Morality Trait (Makes it more GMC compatible, too)  Tracking progress towards acquiring Breath (admit it, we ALL hate the meal system)  Rolling Degeneration (Honor loss is automatic, only Derangements are left to chance. So, one roll instead of two.)

It is also adding requested crunch to:

 Provinces  Maidens  Hoards  Oroboroi politics

Basically, it asks the player "How much can I get away with before I piss somebody off?" and "How willing am I to make things right after I exploit my resources?". So really, it is consolidating several radial system in one tidy mechanic, which would actually reduce book-keeping overall (no more tracking meals, no more keeping track of a Hoard or a Maiden merit, and no convoluted size-population-stability mechanic for Provinces).

I'll explain more later, if necessary. Also, it is not my intention to come across as defensive (if it sounds that way, I apologize). I'm only trying to explain my reasoning behind the extra book-keeping. My reasoning could be flawed, and if it is I kindly request your assistance in the correction of my error.

Vree

My first obvious question is what happens when you betray a Trust - you gain Beath, yes, but do you also trigger something like a "degeneration roll" (or their GMC equivalent, a "breaking point")? Ie. does this mean that every time I try to regain Breath, I risk losing Honor that I can only repurchase with Experience? Since regaining Breath must occur regularly, that seems to mean very quick and unavidable degeneration for everyone.

I'll wait it until I'm sure I understand it right, but doesn't it feel like you're rewarding players for violating their honor and acting un-dragon-like? Ie. you're forcing play to destroy bits of their Hoard, or to actively work against their own province. Isn't that, yknow, the opposite of what we're supposed to encourage and what Honor is supposed to represent? Since you even mention that this is the ONLY way to regain any Breath, that means that all dragons are forced to permanently act un- dragon-like.

TheKingsRaven

Honestly... that system looks pretty terrible.

Loosing dots of Humanity, Obligation, Honour, etc should be a meaningful thing. This turns it into a resource mechanic.

The idea of tying the morality meter to your dominion is a good one, but not like this. Drop the idea of betraying trust as a way to regain Breath. Keep the idea that if you fail to protect your treasure or fail to maintain your domain you risk Honour, but don't give any mechanical rewards for loosing a dot.

Also, if another person has a higher Honour or Integrity than you they should get bonuses to eating your heart. Wheather that's combat bonuses to rip it out of your chest or investigation bonuses to find it's hiding place. That's basically how the Chinese concept of the Mandate of Heaven works.

CJC wrote: In this model, a dragon may only have one maiden at a time, I don't like this. Dragons should be greedy, they shouldn't ever be limited to one of anything.

CJC

Vree wrote: My first obvious question is what happens when you betray a Trust - you gain Beath, yes, but do you also trigger something like a "degeneration roll" (or their GMC equivalent, a "breaking point")? Ie. does this mean that every time I try to regain Breath, I risk losing Honor that I can only repurchase with Experience?

Not quite. Think of it like a tiny Willpower meter. When you betray a trust, you spend one point of the trust's meter, and get a bunch of Breath [1 to full]. If you have no points left to spend in the trust when you do this, you get the Breath and THEN you lose Honor, the trust is damaged (its dot rating is decreased), and the meter is cleared. So the benefit isn't directly from the loss of Honor, it is from risking the loss of honor. There is no degeneration or breaking point roll. If the trust is over-stressed, the honor is lost, guaranteed.

Vree wrote: Since regaining Breath must occur regularly, that seems to mean very quick and unavoidable degeneration for everyone.

The system is supposed to encourage players to balance out their bad with their good. Yes, you destroyed part of your collection. So you should go get more. Yes, you betrayed the trust of your constituents when you had to torture that informant. But you did it so that you could expand the influence of your province, and when that expansion occurs the trust will be restored. Degeneration can be avoided by preventing a trust from becoming over-stressed. The difficulty of this is inversely proportional to the Breath acquired (it's very easy to refill a collection, but very hard to convince other Oroboroi that you're done with eating Hearts... especially when the faces of the dragons you victimized are patterned across your body... or at high furnace literally vocalizing your crimes).

Vree wrote: I'll wait it until I'm sure I understand it right, but doesn't it feel like you're rewarding players for violating their honor and acting un-dragon-like? Ie. you're forcing play to destroy bits of their Hoard, or to actively work against their own province. Isn't that, yknow, the opposite of what we're supposed to encourage and what Honor is supposed to represent? Since you even mention that this is the ONLY way to regain any Breath, that means that all dragons are forced to permanently act un- dragon-like.

Not un-dragon-like. Monstrous. They act as patrons to these entities so that they can victimize them. "Bring me gold so I don't burn down your village". One of the biggest accusations the game has faced is insufficient dark content, so encouraging players to act like tyrants... if only a little... seems like a step in the right direction.

TheKingsRaven wrote: Honestly... that system looks pretty terrible.

Losing dots of Humanity, Obligation, Honour, etc should be a meaningful thing. This turns it into a resource mechanic.

The idea of tying the morality meter to your dominion is a good one, but not like this. Drop the idea of betraying trust as a way to regain Breath. Keep the idea that if you fail to protect your treasure or fail to maintain your domain you risk Honour, but don't give any mechanical rewards for losing a dot.

...Okay... In that case, the trust mechanic would be needless book-keeping. I suppose we could just put all sins at Level 0 (any betrayal of these ideals risks degeneration, regardless of honor). Then it's not really any different from Ethics or Mandate, it's just less forgiving. The loss of honor comes when you abuse your power without working to make things right. You're supposed to exploit your position as ruler... but you're also supposed to make amends. It seemed like a good way to consolidate the two conflicting portrayals of dragons, the vicious beast and the benevolent provider. For example, let us consider the first emperor of China, Qin Shi Huangdi (Zao Zheng). He conquered the warring factions in the region, ending hostilities and improving the prosperity of his people. But then he cast dissenters into a mass grave and buried them alive. Was he a bad ruler? Perhaps. He was both a beast and a benefactor, just like a dragon.

TheKingsRaven wrote: Also, if another person has a higher Honour or Integrity than you they should get bonuses to eating your heart. Whether that's combat bonuses to rip it out of your chest or investigation bonuses to find it's hiding place. That's basically how the Chinese concept of the Mandate of Heaven works.

There are different, significant bonuses to Heart consumption that are unrelated to Honor, that have to do with justifying an increase in Furnace. After the re-write, growing the Furnace will be a much more significant affair, and using another Heart instead of... well, I'm going to keep that a secret for now, but trust me that eating another Oroboroi's Heart is worth angering the community.

TheKingsRaven wrote: CJC wrote: In this model, a dragon may only have one maiden at a time, I don't like this. Dragons should be greedy, they shouldn't ever be limited to one of anything.

I suppose the 'Consort' trust could be cast to a Merit, in which case you could take multiple copies to handle multiple maidens. It would only cost 2 xp per point, then, though, which would damage the Breath reward ratios of the system. Alternatively, additional 'individual' trusts could be instated to handle specific maidens, all falling under the 'Consort' mechanics but tracked in different meters.

Any which way, I want to move the acquisition of Breath into a more consolidated system. When I collected the list of ways to recover breath from this thread, they were half-a-page long. Upholding a province, sleeping on a hoard, consuming fuel materials, confiding in a maiden, eating the flesh of mortals, eating livestock, consuming an Oroboroi Heart, keeping a promise, worship, fear... it's just too much. If trust is not a sufficient cleanup of these mechanics, what is the alternative?

TheKingsRaven

CJC wrote: The system is supposed to encourage players to balance out their bad with their good.

CJC wrote: Not un-dragon-like. Monstrous.

The problem here is that the "bad" is un-dragon-like and balancing out un-dragon-like with dragon-like just dosn't work.

A dragon should say "bring gold so I don't burn your village", but he should add that gold to the horde, not eat it or spend it.

CJC wrote: I suppose we could just put all sins at Level 0 (any betrayal of these ideals risks degeneration, regardless of honor). I'd handle it like GMC integrity; all sins risk degeneration, but you personalise the list of sins and change them during play.

The ruler of a university would have a different mandate to the ruler of a factory.

CJC wrote: The loss of honor comes when you abuse your power without working to make things right. You're supposed to exploit your position as ruler...

You don't need to give Dragons a special reward to exploit their position, exploitation is reward enough. You get shiny stuff like Horde dots.

CJC wrote: For example, let us consider the first emperor of China, Qin Shi Huangdi (Zao Zheng). He conquered the warring factions in the region, ending hostilities and improving the prosperity of his people. But then he cast dissenters into a mass grave and buried them alive. Was he a bad ruler? Perhaps. He was both a beast and a benefactor, just like a dragon.

I would actually consider this an example of a really high Mandate/Honour Dragon. His "Breaking Points" are all about political instability, and he crushes it ruthlessly thus preserving his honour.

CJC wrote: There are different, significant bonuses to Heart consumption that are unrelated to Honor You misunderstand me.

Not bonuses from eating the heart. Bonuses to acquiring a heart to eat. If your honour/mandate is low, people find it easier to track down your heart's hidden hiding place.

CJC wrote: I suppose the 'Consort' trust could be cast to a Merit, in which case you could take multiple copies to handle multiple maidens. Why not just have a general horde merit. Five dots in horde could be a massive pile of gold, a group of beautiful maidens, a collection of artwork, some combination of the above. (I like the idea that it's physical beauty that makes something valid for inclusion in a horde)

CJC wrote: If trust is not a sufficient cleanup of these mechanics, what is the alternative? I'd just strip that list down to hordes and upholding a province.

Vree

CJC wrote:

Not quite. Think of it like a tiny Willpower meter. When you betray a trust, you spend one point of the trust's meter, and get a bunch of Breath [1 to full]. If you have no points left to spend in the trust when you do this, you get the Breath and THEN you lose Honor, the trust is damaged (its dot rating is decreased), and the meter is cleared. So the benefit isn't directly from the loss of Honor, it is from risking the loss of honor. There is no degeneration or breaking point roll. If the trust is over-stressed, the honor is lost, guaranteed.

Ah, okay, I see what you were trying to do.

And my answer is...Yes. I could see it working. Would be willing to give it a try, at the least, it sounds like fun.

Here's a thing: me and maybe Raven too I think, probably prefer a bit more shiny-happy kind of books. Yes there is trauma and darkness and your character is tragic but he can if he wants stay on top of it usually, morally clean, the exception, without sullying his hand too much. (I/we like to play villains, too. That's a separate thing.) And I'm thinking now how I'd cope with playing Vampire for example (I never played it - yet), since Vampires definitely can not avoid draining some poor sap, and how that'd influence my perception of them.

'Cause you've got to be thinking, how much is too much? If players are forced to use this system as frequently as refilling Breath usually is needed, are they not going to feel bad or neurotic about the game forcing them to do those things? But then I'm thinking, the system lets them fall back on the slow but harmless way of just getting more treasure/money, so they can set it to where their comfort zone is, I think.

I don't want to give you homework but I started thinking and I'd be curious - could you make a list of things you see as possible violations of trust, for each segment? I was thinking for example of the various ways people may want to wriggle out of this moral trap and it's interesting the sort of things that occurred to me such as: - 'sins" committed in the name of "justice" This is for "betrayal of province", primarily. Just like a vampire may not feel so bad about draining vile/obnoxious people who "deserve it anyway", a dragon may let the hammer fall when it only hits people he thinks can cope with it, or who the world (not implying death, only, say, the business work in the case of a fired person) is better off without. - consent Again going by Vampire: if a person agrees to being drained it is not a sin...right? That may be how a dragon/maiden(muse) relationship (a real one where both are (too?) devoted to the other) sometimes looks like.

What do you think about letting the player decide how they distribute the dots, instead of the 3-2-1-0 division? I mean, you're telling them the size of hoard, province and relationship they have, maybe they want to determine that for themselves.

Concerns/Stuff to try and test from my side boil down to: - Is the "do a bad thing, do a good thing" balance good enough, is it doable by players - Is this still "WoD"-like - my point here is, there are games that do force you to do a lot of dark stuff, I mean literally force as part of the fun. The WoD doesn't as much, despite how it may seem (or maybe does, I just don't often go there)? So is this enjoyable for a WoD gamer? But ultimately I'd say it's not so bad (see my prev comment about comfort zones above) and second I don't mind that kind of mixing/innovation anyway.

CJC

Vree wrote: I don't want to give you homework but I started thinking and I'd be curious - could you make a list of things you see as possible violations of trust, for each segment?

Oh, that's not a problem.

Collection Collection is really only violated in one way. The Dragon consumes something from her collection, converting its value into Breath. This is why dragons are constantly raiding treasuries in myths; the collection needs to be kept impressive so such sacrifices become trivial... at least for a while. It might seem like failing to protect the Hoard would fall under a betrayal of this trust, but really that is a failure as a member of the Oroboroi (so it is a betrayal of Contemporaries. I go into that below).

Constituents Constituents are betrayed when an Oroboros does not protect her province (or even acts to harm it). Here are a few possible violations of the Constituent trust:

 Scandal: The Oroboros commits actions that, when discovered by the public, damage her credibility. Being discovered as a drug user, being suspected in a murder or conspiracy, or being caught on a bribery charge are common examples. For the first two, proving the Oroboros' innocence would restore the trust (but hey, since the betrayal occured she still gets the Breath for it!). For the latter, the bribery might damage her trust with the Constituents but could restore trust with her Collection.  Exploitation: The Oroboros makes demands of her people, such as funds for a renovation project (which she may or may not embezzle), an excess commitment beyond their regular duties, or some other injustice. She might collect money from her employees for a charitable event, ask them to work on Saturday, or tell them they won't be getting their bonuses this year because "it doesn't fit in the budget". The first instance might also restore trust if the charitable benefit helps others in the Oroboros' province (a restoration of Constituent trust). As for the second, the Oroboros might make it up to her employees with a party when the project is complete, restoring the trust. The third? Well... people tend to resent you for a LONG time when you attack their wallets... the Oroboros best look to other venues to restore trust within her province, since the employees will not forgive easily (this is important to note: restoring a trust need not be in response to the action that betrayed the trust). This is an example of sinning in the name of justice: the betrayal (and Breath recovery) occurs, but for a good cause. Trust is almost instantly re-established, granting the Oroboros the benefit of betrayal at no real cost.  Dereliction: The Oroboros fails to prevent outside influences from damaging her province, such as the attacks of another dragon, eminent domain snatching up the homes of her constituents, or even failing to quarantine a rampant illness that is sweeping the populace. These types of betrayals are hard to avoid; it is sometimes better to simply apologize with sincerity and make amends, rather that prevent the hardships in the first place. For the Oroboroi this is definitely the superior option, as it results in the replenishment of Breath.

Consort Maidens are tricky business. They are inspirational figures, but a dragon's greed seeks to stake total claim in that inspiration. Betrayal of trust against a maiden can occur in two fashions:

 Restriction: "You will sing, but sing only for me". When an Oroboros keeps the talents of a maiden locked up for personal use, she [the dragon] is robbing the world of that joy. This is a betrayal of the consort, whose talents should be shared with everyone. Examples include private concerts/paintings/writings, preventing a creative work from reaching the desk of someone who could promote it, or personally sabotaging the maiden's attempts to acquire a job/exposure.  Terror: When an Oroboros reminds the maiden that the relationship they share is one of a jailer and prisoner, the trust of the consort is shaken. Examples of this include towering, assaulting outsiders who interact with the maiden (directly or indirectly; only if the maiden learns of the assault), and destroying or stealing the maiden's belongings (there's more; I'd rather not go into details, though).

Restoring trust with a consort involves actually helping the maiden acquire fame, keeping promises, or giving false hope that these dreams will come to fruition. The last requires a legitimate effort, the Oroboros needs to present convincing evidence that there is a chance of success.

Contemporaries The Oroboroi have very specific rules of conduct. Do not surrender, especially to a mortal. If you wager a bet, don't wriggle out of it when you lose (especially if the wager was your Heart). Don't eat more than one Dragon Heart. Betraying these trusts is easy, but restoring trust with the Oroboroi is very difficult. After all, every last one is paranoid and narcissistic. To restore trust here, the Oroboros must show she is a righteous individual by treating visitors to her territory well (rather than attacking them as soon as they arrive), working with a Den to benefit the affairs of ANOTHER Oroboros (rather than herself alone), route out or shun Heart Eaters, or show that she is a conqueror.

Vree wrote: What do you think about letting the player decide how they distribute the dots, instead of the 3-2-1-0 division? I mean, you're telling them the size of hoard, province and relationship they have, maybe they want to determine that for themselves.

This was actually purely mechanical. I wanted to ensure that starting Oroboros characters would have enough access to Breath to avoid immediate risk of Honor loss.

 Three 1-Breath restorations  Two 2-Breath restorations  One 1-Breath restoration

Doing nothing but betraying trusts, the Oroboros can accrue 12 Breath without losing Honor. This (hopefully) ensures that there are enough options to recover Breath without risking Fossilization OR degeneration, provided the Oroboros actually tries to restore some of the trusts she betrays.

It is a pity, though, that this clashes with the ability to pick the starting relationships for these values. Such is the disparity that occurs with the different Breath rewards (I guess you could give the player 10 'trust' dots to distribute, and make the costs 1 dot-2 dots-3 dots-4 dots. This does risk players making characters with many low dot, high-effort trusts, though... I'll need to think on this more).

Assuming a low-furnace Oroboros makes 3 proclamations (possibly all in the same scene), staves off fossilization twice, and uses three Breath-fueled ablutions during a game's chapter, that comes to roughly 8 Breath per chapter. If the chapter has combat, she might spend 6 or so Breath treating lethal wounds, for a total of 14 in the chapter. Since combat usually results in degeneration anyway, this feels like a good balance. If I am underestimating, though... the trusts may need to start at a higher rating.

TheKingsRaven

Vree wrote: I don't want to give you homework but I started thinking and I'd be curious - could you make a list of things you see as possible violations of trust, for each segment?

Oh, that's not a problem.

Collection Collection is really only violated in one way. The Dragon consumes something from her collection, converting its value into Breath. This is why dragons are constantly raiding treasuries in myths; the collection needs to be kept impressive so such sacrifices become trivial... at least for a while. It might seem like failing to protect the Hoard would fall under a betrayal of this trust, but really that is a failure as a member of the Oroboroi (so it is a betrayal of Contemporaries. I go into that below).

Constituents Constituents are betrayed when an Oroboros does not protect her province (or even acts to harm it). Here are a few possible violations of the Constituent trust:

 Scandal: The Oroboros commits actions that, when discovered by the public, damage her credibility. Being discovered as a drug user, being suspected in a murder or conspiracy, or being caught on a bribery charge are common examples. For the first two, proving the Oroboros' innocence would restore the trust (but hey, since the betrayal occured she still gets the Breath for it!). For the latter, the bribery might damage her trust with the Constituents but could restore trust with her Collection.  Exploitation: The Oroboros makes demands of her people, such as funds for a renovation project (which she may or may not embezzle), an excess commitment beyond their regular duties, or some other injustice. She might collect money from her employees for a charitable event, ask them to work on Saturday, or tell them they won't be getting their bonuses this year because "it doesn't fit in the budget". The first instance might also restore trust if the charitable benefit helps others in the Oroboros' province (a restoration of Constituent trust). As for the second, the Oroboros might make it up to her employees with a party when the project is complete, restoring the trust. The third? Well... people tend to resent you for a LONG time when you attack their wallets... the Oroboros best look to other venues to restore trust within her province, since the employees will not forgive easily (this is important to note: restoring a trust need not be in response to the action that betrayed the trust). This is an example of sinning in the name of justice: the betrayal (and Breath recovery) occurs, but for a good cause. Trust is almost instantly re-established, granting the Oroboros the benefit of betrayal at no real cost.  Dereliction: The Oroboros fails to prevent outside influences from damaging her province, such as the attacks of another dragon, eminent domain snatching up the homes of her constituents, or even failing to quarantine a rampant illness that is sweeping the populace. These types of betrayals are hard to avoid; it is sometimes better to simply apologize with sincerity and make amends, rather that prevent the hardships in the first place. For the Oroboroi this is definitely the superior option, as it results in the replenishment of Breath.

Consort Maidens are tricky business. They are inspirational figures, but a dragon's greed seeks to stake total claim in that inspiration. Betrayal of trust against a maiden can occur in two fashions:

 Restriction: "You will sing, but sing only for me". When an Oroboros keeps the talents of a maiden locked up for personal use, she [the dragon] is robbing the world of that joy. This is a betrayal of the consort, whose talents should be shared with everyone. Examples include private concerts/paintings/writings, preventing a creative work from reaching the desk of someone who could promote it, or personally sabotaging the maiden's attempts to acquire a job/exposure.  Terror: When an Oroboros reminds the maiden that the relationship they share is one of a jailer and prisoner, the trust of the consort is shaken. Examples of this include towering, assaulting outsiders who interact with the maiden (directly or indirectly; only if the maiden learns of the assault), and destroying or stealing the maiden's belongings (there's more; I'd rather not go into details, though).

Restoring trust with a consort involves actually helping the maiden acquire fame, keeping promises, or giving false hope that these dreams will come to fruition. The last requires a legitimate effort, the Oroboros needs to present convincing evidence that there is a chance of success.

Contemporaries The Oroboroi have very specific rules of conduct. Do not surrender, especially to a mortal. If you wager a bet, don't wriggle out of it when you lose (especially if the wager was your Heart). Don't eat more than one Dragon Heart. Betraying these trusts is easy, but restoring trust with the Oroboroi is very difficult. After all, every last one is paranoid and narcissistic. To restore trust here, the Oroboros must show she is a righteous individual by treating visitors to her territory well (rather than attacking them as soon as they arrive), working with a Den to benefit the affairs of ANOTHER Oroboros (rather than herself alone), route out or shun Heart Eaters, or show that she is a conqueror.

Vree wrote: What do you think about letting the player decide how they distribute the dots, instead of the 3-2-1-0 division? I mean, you're telling them the size of hoard, province and relationship they have, maybe they want to determine that for themselves.

This was actually purely mechanical. I wanted to ensure that starting Oroboros characters would have enough access to Breath to avoid immediate risk of Honor loss.

 Three 1-Breath restorations  Two 2-Breath restorations  One 1-Breath restoration

Doing nothing but betraying trusts, the Oroboros can accrue 12 Breath without losing Honor. This (hopefully) ensures that there are enough options to recover Breath without risking Fossilization OR degeneration, provided the Oroboros actually tries to restore some of the trusts she betrays.

It is a pity, though, that this clashes with the ability to pick the starting relationships for these values. Such is the disparity that occurs with the different Breath rewards (I guess you could give the player 10 'trust' dots to distribute, and make the costs 1 dot-2 dots-3 dots-4 dots. This does risk players making characters with many low dot, high-effort trusts, though... I'll need to think on this more).

Assuming a low-furnace Oroboros makes 3 proclamations (possibly all in the same scene), staves off fossilization twice, and uses three Breath-fueled ablutions during a game's chapter, that comes to roughly 8 Breath per chapter. If the chapter has combat, she might spend 6 or so Breath treating lethal wounds, for a total of 14 in the chapter. Since combat usually results in degeneration anyway, this feels like a good balance. If I am underestimating, though... the trusts may need to start at a higher rating.

Gravitas Man

I think the idea of the mechanic actually is really good but it could do with some fine-tuning. I think it is a bit overly complex from first glance and also doesn’t quite fit in with regular WOD morality dots. Here are some ideas that have occurred to me in response to your idea to take your idea of breaking trust and turning into a more standard WOD model.

Firstly lets define that a Dragon can regain Breath from “Possessions.” This is a catch all term for Hoard, Domain, The People in the Domain and Maidens.

Having a possession will automatically enable the Dragon to draw a small amount of breath from it by merely interacting with it. So a Dragon who admires his hoard, interacts with a maiden, monitors his domain etc can passively draw some breath from these actions. This occurs as long as the Dragon has control of the Possession in question. It can be used to restore a relatively small amount of breath. Perhaps enough to keep the Dragon surviving, assuming it retains control of the possession. I would imagine this to work off of merit points, since they are on the character sheet and easy to see. I would maybe say that a Dragon can passively regain half of a Possessions merit value. Note these numbers are just an idea, I am not as experienced at the number crunching thing side of things so very much expect these to be tweaked but this system would have the benefit of being pretty simple to remember.

However Dragons would also be able to gather breath by “Imposing their Will.” Under CJC’s original idea, Imposing Will are the actions that break trust. They are essentially actions that show the Dragon is in charge; to be feared or respected or both. Imposing your will on a Maiden, would draw more breath up to the maximum of the merit’s value. Of course the easiest way to impose your will would be an act that made the subject fearful. Which brings me to the morality system and how it interacts with regaining breath.

I am not really a fan of the implied back and forth that result from Dragons continually building up honour and losing it again. I think the morality system should be more in line with the other lines, in that it represents something that can easily be understood. For example a high clarity Changeling represents a character that is more sane, more able to distinguish between reality and Arcadia. A high humanity Vampire in original Requiem was more humane, more ethical.

For Dragon I think the morality stat should represent the way they act as rulers. By their nature, our Dragons are absolute rulers and you know what they say about absolute power right? So I would propose that the morality meter like this Honour (which is a good name) represents how tyrannical the Dragon is. A high Honour Dragon is still a dictator but a benevolent one. One that tends to the needs of his “Possessions.” Of course the Dragon would firmly believe that only they could properly determine that and wouldn’t want the Possesion to be free to determine their own life. (Perhaps only 10 or 9 Honour Dragons would hold this enlightened view).

A low Honour Dragon will have gotten there by Imposing its will on those around it and the easiest way of doing that is by cultivating fear, though in theory a mix of fear and respect would be sufficient. Though of course respect is much harder to maintain than fear. The fear or respect would also need to be of the Dragon in question. Punching a stranger in the face will potentially draw a fearful responseful but it will be of the fear of fighting, of getting hurt. It wouldn’t be enough to gain Breath. Beating that stranger to within an inch of their life, so that they fear for their life, that the Dragon might kill them is a much more specific fear, this would be enough to draw breath (and probably quite a bit of it.)

This would thus create a dynamic similar to Vampire (which I think is a good thing). It is possible for Dragons to gather breath in a relatively moral way, but this only leads to small returns. A cultivated hoard through legitimate means is pretty but hard to increase the size of to accommodate the increasing breath requirements of a high furnace dragon. (I definitely think the idea of more breath being spent as the Dragon’s furnace increases should be in the game.) This would give the incentive for Dragons to need to Impose their Will to gain a large amount of breath. The more they Impose their Will the more likely they are to be tyrannical and thus lose Honour. This would also tie in well with having Dragons become more corrupt with the power they wield. In fact the theme of corruption would tie in well with the games themes.

Heres an example as I imagine this kind of thing acting in play. The numbers for the Maiden merit and so forth are just ideas, as mentioned above. A character makes a starting character based on the concept of a 1950s American Dad. He spends 6 of his merits on two Maidens for 3 dots each; who he decides are actually his wife and daughter. Lets call the character Stan.

At this point Stan can potentially regain 4 breath a day; 2 from each Maiden. A lot for a starting character but he did spend most of his merit points to be able to do so. He has a net of 3 breath at his disposal as he will need to vent 1 breath each day. Again, this is a lot but a starting Vampire could potentially do similar with the feeding grounds or herd merits so I think its relatively balanced.

Stan is a starting character so his Honour is about 7. He is not particularly tyrannical but does impose certain rules on his 12 year daughter (don’t stay out too late, don’t talk to strangers, work hard at school) normal parental stuff. He also has certain expectations of his wife, (be a housewife, do my cooking and cleaning).

Stan does Dragony stuff which results in a fight with a rival, in which he blows most of his breath (heh pun) but does not strike a critical blow on the foe and so he has not been able to Impose his Will. He could go home, regain his breath over a few days by interacting with his maidens passively. But he decides he needs the breath now so he decided to impose his will on the Maidens now. The player now has the freedom on how the character would go about this. There are a few. He could try to really impress his wife so that she suddenly respects him more, by say, outrageously lying to her about something he has achieved that would impress her. Or maybe by finding an opputunity to show off in front her, in a way she finds attractive or whatever. These would likely take time, and effort to set up though and his rival could be back any second. So he takes a more tyrannical route. He goes home and berates her g instead, to the point where she is upset and crying by this unexpected act. Boom. Stan gets all 3 breath points. Next he goes to find his daughter and to yell at her to go to her room for some minor misdemenour. They are both crying now and he has successfully imposed his will. He is 6 breath points better off. The player makes an Honour roll to see if he drops from a 7 to a 6.

The player could have gone for a less dickish response to get his breath, but they probably would have required more work and his family crying for a night isn’t that bad if it means he can protect them if the rival comes back right? I think this type of method for drawing breath would be decent as it could lead to roleplaying scenes if the troupe desire but could also be hand-waved away if they want to focus on other things. Like Vampire you can roleplaying feeding if you want or just make a few rolls and be done. I think that the actions that count as Imposing your Will could basically be drawn from CJC’s list of trust breaking points, since it is mostly the same thing, exploiting your position as an absolute ruler to get more breath.

The actions for more neutral respect based Imposing your Will could be things like

Sparing an opponent’s life when they are in your power, either to humiliate them or simply because it’s a good thing to do.

Getting someone to betray an ally for you.

Dealing with someone elses problem in a visible manner so they are aware that you are responsible.

Essentially power is a social action and it should contain a social dynamic. Quietly eliminating a rival might be helpful but if no one knows it was you, you wouldn’t get breath.

Final thoughts.

How hoard would work. Pretty similarly to CJC’s idea. Hoard can be 1-5 dot merit. You can passively draw upon half of its value as normal. You can choose to consume 1 dot of it to gain the hoard value plus 1. If you do this the hoard would drop down a dot. E.G Stan has a 2 dot hoard. He decides to eat a dot. He gains 3 breath but his hoard drops to 1 from now. Dragons can also add to their hoards to replenish them but this requires work but I think successfully adding a dot to hoard should allow the same benefit. E.G Stan adds something valuable to his 2 dot hoard, he gains 3 breath and his hoard is now 3. Yipee.

I think this system would allow feeding to be apart of the game if players want it to be. It would also be more similar to current WOD morality and feeding styles. The numbers for what merits are worth would require some tweaking (Maybe Maidens should be 4 dots? I am not sure) but I think it would incentise a dynamic of Dragons being bound to rule but also being constantly tempted to be corrupt and exploit their position. It would allow the possibility of regaining breath without a player actually having a hoard, Maiden or Domain, by imposing their will on those around them. Albeit this would make being a nomad a dangerous, albeit possible player option. It would also allow high Honour, more benevolent Dragons to be a possible, playable option.

Sorry for the long post, hope you guys can struggle through it. What are people’s thoughts?

CJC

Gravitas Man wrote: Firstly lets define that a Dragon can regain Breath from “Possessions.” This is a catch all term for Hoard, Domain, The People in the Domain and Maidens.

Having a possession will automatically enable the Dragon to draw a small amount of breath from it by merely interacting with it. So a Dragon who admires his hoard, interacts with a maiden, monitors his domain etc can passively draw some breath from these actions. This occurs as long as the Dragon has control of the Possession in question. It can be used to restore a relatively small amount of breath. Perhaps enough to keep the Dragon surviving, assuming it retains control of the possession. I would imagine this to work off of merit points, since they are on the character sheet and easy to see. I would maybe say that a Dragon can passively regain half of a Possessions merit value. Note these numbers are just an idea, I am not as experienced at the number crunching thing side of things so very much expect these to be tweaked but this system would have the benefit of being pretty simple to remember.

Actually, considering the rate at which a Dragon consumes Breath I'd say your numbers are quite reasonable. I'm wondering though if it would be better to round down or perhaps sprinkle in 'dead' dots to ensure the Merit is always owned at an even number.

Gravitas Man wrote: I am not really a fan of the implied back and forth that result from Dragons continually building up honour and losing it again. I think the morality system should be more in line with the other lines, in that it represents something that can easily be understood. For example a high clarity Changeling represents a character that is more sane, more able to distinguish between reality and Arcadia. A high humanity Vampire in original Requiem was more humane, more ethical.

For Dragon I think the morality stat should represent the way they act as rulers. By their nature, our Dragons are absolute rulers and you know what they say about absolute power right? So I would propose that the morality meter like this Honour (which is a good name) represents how tyrannical the Dragon is. A high Honour Dragon is still a dictator but a benevolent one. One that tends to the needs of his “Possessions.” Of course the Dragon would firmly believe that only they could properly determine that and wouldn’t want the Possesion to be free to determine their own life. (Perhaps only 10 or 9 Honour Dragons would hold this enlightened view).

Well betrayals could be construed as mistreatments of possessions, actually (all except the Contemporaries one). If we cut the actual mechanic and handle it as a breaking point, then yes--Honour will function as you describe. That seems to be the most favorable correction, so unless someone objects I will probably implement your systm Gravitas.

For contrast, I had another thought regarding an inverted morality system called Miasma (recycling the term since the DreamTide is going kaput, and Miasma actually means spiritual contamination). Essentially, when a dragon acts maliciously this force builds up within her, poisoning her soul. The higher the dragon's Miasma rating, the more wicked she becomes and the more desiccated she appears when manifesting ablutions. At very high Miasma the flesh literally falls off of her bones as Degree of Divinity rises, making her some kind of horrible rotting abomination. Essentially it is a degeneration system that starts at 0 and rises when the player fails the roll. Just another possibility to consider.

Gravitas Man wrote: This would thus create a dynamic similar to Vampire (which I think is a good thing). It is possible for Dragons to gather breath in a relatively moral way, but this only leads to small returns. A cultivated hoard through legitimate means is pretty but hard to increase the size of to accommodate the increasing breath requirements of a high furnace dragon. (I definitely think the idea of more breath being spent as the Dragon’s furnace increases should be in the game.)

It is in the game, but it is adjacent to the Furnace system rather than contained within it. Dragons with higher Furnace can achieve higher Degrees of Divinity more quickly, which require more frequent payments of Breath (Degree 0 requires one a day, other Degrees step up the payment from there. By the max Degree of 7, payments are insanely frequent).

Gravitas Man wrote: This would give the incentive for Dragons to need to Impose their Will to gain a large amount of breath. The more they Impose their Will the more likely they are to be tyrannical and thus lose Honour. This would also tie in well with having Dragons become more corrupt with the power they wield. In fact the theme of corruption would tie in well with the games themes.

Sounds great!

Gravitas Man wrote: How hoard would work. Pretty similarly to CJC’s idea. Hoard can be 1-5 dot merit. You can passively draw upon half of its value as normal. You can choose to consume 1 dot of it to gain the hoard value plus 1. If you do this the hoard would drop down a dot. E.G Stan has a 2 dot hoard. He decides to eat a dot. He gains 3 breath but his hoard drops to 1 from now on. Dragons can also add to their hoards to replenish them but this requires work but I think successfully adding a dot to hoard should allow the same benefit. E.G Stan adds something valuable to his 2 dot hoard, he gains 3 breath and his hoard is now 3. Yipee.

I like it. It sort of makes Hoard work like a Resource merit, but to purchase Breath instead of purchasing gear.

Thank you for taking the time to write these things, Gravitas. This has been tremendously helpful. Unless anybody objects, I'd like to implement these suggestions into the master document for third-stage development.

Gravitas Man

I am glad you thought it was helpful. Honestly, I think Dragon has a lot of potential and there have been some fantastic ideas presented here. I have enjoyed reading the discussions, and chipping in here and there.

I gave this some additional thought today and wondered if Domain should be represented by a merit rating or not?

At the moment I have an idea that if it were a merit and not storyteller device, maybe Domain could act as a bonus to times when the Dragon gains breath. It could act as 1-5 dot merit, with its merit dots acting as a bonus to when Dragon the gains breath.

So lets say Stan from above has a 1 dot domian (his house). This wouldn't grant him any breath by itself but whenever he gained breath by Imposing his Will within that domain, the merit would give him a bonus of 1. So in the scernario I gave where he gained 6 breath from his two maidens, the inclusion of the Domain merit would have given him a net of 2 breath; since he gained breath on two seperate occasions; with the Domain bonus adding 1 each time.

I don't know if this would be too powerful or not, but it would mean that large domains (4 or 5 dots worth) are worth having and are very much a valid means of gaining breath; without it just replicating the mechanics of Hoard.

I need to re-read the degrees of divinity to have an idea of breath expenditure to make sure that the numbers aren't skewered.

Domain would thus potentially give more Breath in one go but is not as predicable as Hoard.

I am not sure if this idea would work or not to be honest. Thoughts?

Looking at your idea of Miasima. I don't think this would work that well for playable characters, but as a feature of antagonists; I think it could be fantastic great. Perhaps 0 Honour Dragons become Miamasmic entities; or perhaps they can cause that decay in others; becoming a corrupting force. Could be a pretty compelling antagonist; with the similarities between the Dragon PCs being potentially high. I like the idea of Dragon PCs becoming slowly twisted physically as they unlock and use their ablutions and having enemies that take that feature to a more disturbing, almost disgusting level could really add to the game in my opinion.

CJC

[on mobile device: please pardon inferior formatting]

Gravitas Man wrote: I am glad you thought it was helpful. Honestly, I think Dragon has a lot of potential and there have been some fantastic ideas presented here. I have enjoyed reading the discussions, and chipping in here and there.

I gave this some additional thought today and wondered if Domain should be represented by a merit rating or not?

At the moment I have an idea that if it were a merit and not storyteller device, maybe Domain could act as a bonus to times when the Dragon gains breath. It could act as 1-5 dot merit, with its merit dots acting as a bonus to when Dragon the gains breath.

Here is how I intend to implement the idea,but first a preface: We want these ideas to function as merits to ease the severity of the mechanic, but we do not wish them to actually BE merits (as it causes an unfortunate drain on character versatility at creation). So instead, we're going to legitimately steal Mummy the Arisen's Pillars mechanic.

Picture this: Breath meter? Gone. Instead, there is a Breath section on the page that has sources. Sources work like specialties in that they are VERY freeform, and each has a dot rating and a series of points (picture the Ablution setup on the sheet, this is identical). When a dragon needs Breath, he spends a point from one of his sources (just like an Arisen spends points from a pillar). To replenish the source, he must spend time WITH THAT SPECIFIC SOURCE or he must by tyrannical WITH THAT SPECIFIC SOURCE or he must consume still-living flesh regardless of source.

The first and second function just like your described merit. That is, spending quality time with a source (one scene) clears half the marks, and terrorizing it clears all the marks. Here is the distinction, though; the source can be any proper noun. A building, a group of people, an individual person... the player gets to decide WHAT the Oroboros sees as important and assign a rating to that relationship. (To use an ideology or religion as one of these Breath sources requires Storyteller approval).

So why track points separately? When an Oroboros draws Breath, she does so by thinking about something (or someone) that is important to her. In order to continue doing so, she must SHOW that thing (or person) that they are important. The mechanic lets players indirectly tell the Storyteller "Hey, I want more story about my dragon's mate, so I'm drawing my Breath from THERE!". It also adds a great risk: what if that particular source ceases to be available? Perhaps the Hoard is stolen or the Maiden kidnapped. Then the Oroboros CANNOT replenish the available Breath from that source. This is a warning about putting all your eggs in one basket; if your sample dragon Stan's sources are all tied together (House, Family, Wife, Daughter, Trademark Plates), and the connecting variable is severed (the house burns down with all inside), then the dragon risks having NO sources of Breath... except cannibalizing mortals (that is why that option does not require attending to a specific source).

Source dots may change at Storyteller discretion and NEVER cost experience (unlike my earlier proposed trust system). Rather, players should work to increase relationships with these proper nouns to grow their available Breath replenishments.

Starting characters may place 10 dots in as many sources as they please, though it is recommended to avoid having too many or too few (in case one is endangered). This system suffers from a little extra book-keeping (like Pillars do in Mummy) but benefits from extended flexibility and a re-emphasis on the game's themes (dragons should PROTECT their property, regardless of the form it may take). EDIT: Also, it is obviously severed from Ethics/Mandate/Honour, which will be taking on a GMC Breaking-point style system (Doesn't matter how honorable you are, do these things and you risk degeneration).

Gravitas Man wrote: Looking at your idea of Miasima. I don't think this would work that well for playable characters, but as a feature of antagonists; I think it could be fantastic great. Perhaps 0 Honour Dragons become Miamasmic entities; or perhaps they can cause that decay in others; becoming a corrupting force. Could be a pretty compelling antagonist; with the similarities between the Dragon PCs being potentially high. I like the idea of Dragon PCs becoming slowly twisted physically as they unlock and use their ablutions and having enemies that take that feature to a more disturbing, almost disgusting level could really add to the game in my opinion.

Yeah, I regretted posting it this morning. MIght be fun for a different splat or--as you say--an antagonist, but definitely not for the Oroboroi.

In the meantime, let's discuss another topic:

Dragons as weather spirits

Quote: ABSTRACT (AKA TL; DR ) When Dragons emote, they cause weather phenomenon, such as dry lightning or hail. To increase Furnace, a dragon must vomit up one of the organs in her torso to make room. The affiliated emotion is lost with it, unless the organ is carried in hand or a Graft is utilized.

Dragons as weather spirits is a common depiction in Asiatic myths, and we even see it directly in the story of the boy and the pearl (forgot his name, don't feel like looking it up right now).

So where can we attach this idea to the Oroboroi? I didn't want it to be a component of Edicts... rather I wanted it to be a less voluntary affair. The following is based of Robert Plutchik's theory of emotions:

There are eight primary bipolar emotions: joy against sadness, anger against fear, trust against disgust, and surprise against anticipation. All other emotions are combinations of these eight elementary states. For the game of Dragon the Embers we will assume this to be true.

Dragons can experience each of these emotions (depending on certain variables, elaborated later), but as they are tied to the phenomenon of weather so is their mental state. Each emotion has an affiliated organ and weather phenomenon.

Anger – Dry Lightning - Liver Anticipation – High Winds - Kidneys Joy – Clear Skies - Heart Trust – Partly Cloudy - Gallbladder Fear – Fog - Pancreas Surprise – Snow - Lungs Sadness – Rain - Spleen Disgust – Hail - Stomach

I have tried to match these with historical beliefs of emotional attachment. For those which I could not find affiliated mental association, I made an educated guess based on the organ's primary function

When a dragon experiences one of these emotions to a significant degree, the weather reacts accordingly. During great anticipation the winds pick up and may even twist into a tornado. With great fear the steam rises off the ground and occludes the streets. Obviously this is a tremendous inconvenience, so dragons must work to control their emotions. Part of their existence helps with this.

In order to increase Furnace, the Oroboros must make room for it within her body. She has already done so once; in joining the Oroboroi she vomits up her Heart. Thus, each time she wishes to increase Furnace she must choose one of the seven remaining organs to sacrifice. With an organ separate from her body, she cannot experience the affiliated emotion. She needs to either carry her organ with her (and hold it in her hand when she wishes to feel) or fake it with Willpower (which does not translate to weather). There is a third option, Grafts, which we'll discuss below.

What about the last two dots of Furnace (9 and 10)? That's a different matter and I will discuss it later in the post. Also note, this is a justification for the increase in Furnace, the act still requires expending experience.

With the organs outside of the body, they are at risk for destruction. Indeed, if someone finds and smashes one of these disembodied organs (except the Heart) the Oroboros may NEVER be able to experience its emotion again. This too is a terrifying prospect, but there are workarounds.

 The Oroboros might eat another dragon's Heart. This increases the heat of the Furnace, allowing it to burn more potently in the same amount of space. Consuming another dragon Heart thus eliminates the need to sacrifice an emotion. OR  The Oroboros can go looking for a surrogate. By excising the missing organ from a mortal the dragon may fashion aGraft, which among other things allows her to recover her lost emotion. Grafts are not as good as the real organ, though... it can take up to five copies of an organ to fashion a Graft that simulates the real feeling. Grafts DO have an advantage, though... they can be used to voluntarily trigger a weather phenomenon. OR  The Oroboros may sneak around another dragon's Hoard and hopefully replace her missing organ with a copy from their collection.

Pretty gruesome. In other words, dragons need to choose between worldly detachment or despicable actions.

Some of these emotions may seem like an easy thing to give up, and some Oroboroi may use such as justification. But EACH is important. Without anger, one cannot react when she has been wronged. Without disgust one has no way to gauge cleanliness and personal hygiene. Without sadness there can be no remorse. Without fear there is no concept of danger. EVERY emotion is important, and the player's decision which ones to carry for the day should matter.

So now we come to Furnace 8. Provided the Oroboros hasn't been naughty, she has no more emotions to vomit up to make room. So what is she to do? To climb to Furnace 9, she must abandon her concept of Gender. The original dragons only took on gender after they assumed human guises; it is a mortal construct and a hurdle to true divinity. Finally, what is left to sacrifice to make that climb to Furnace 10? Simple; the Oroboros must discard her connect with her mortal form. She ejects her humanity and loses the ability to disband Ablutions... that is unless she carries her humanity with her. The first (Gender) emerges as a swirling orb, somewhat resembling a Taijitu (I know... "Dragons up the Yin Yang" trope. But it applies well to Gender as a physical object). The second (Humanity) is a jade coin, with the dragon's mortal face on one side and her divine visage on the other. It pulses with unseen energy and makes mortals uncomfortable at close range, even if it is concealed.

This is all very end-game content, and likely will never or rarely come up in play

Gravitas Man

The more I think about the emotion sacrifice, weather effect ideas. The more I like it. I think freak weather is a great general "tell" for high furnance Dragons. The idea of a Dragon wearing its organs as talismen or something on their bodies is pretty evocative. I don't think you neccesarily need a corresponding weather pattern towards a particular emotion, but overall the idea seems pretty cool. I like it.

CJC

Gravitas Man wrote: The more I think about the emotion sacrifice, weather effect ideas. The more I like it. I think freak weather is a great general "tell" for high furnance Dragons. The idea of a Dragon wearing its organs as talismen or something on their bodies is pretty evocative. I don't think you neccesarily need a corresponding weather pattern towards a particular emotion, but overall the idea seems pretty cool. I like it.

Agreed. Without the phenomenon spelled out mechanically it gives the Storyteller room to play with the weather for dramatic effect (and fixes an issue I was encountering the the Trickster's special sense).

You mention a high-furnace tell. Which are you picturing, more frequent severe weather (any emotions trigger it instead of an extreme emotion) or more grandiose severe weather (same emotional trigger, but instead of say a summer shower the result is a three day monsoon). I'm partial to the latter, actually.

Egreham wants to do illustrations