Minnesota Youth Gang Research Project Minnesota Historical Society

Interview with SAD 21 year old Hmong American Saint Paul MOD GIRL

Interviewed by Kate Cavett Thursday September 10, 1998 Home and park in Saint Paul, MN

KC: Introduce yourself to me. S: My name is (name). I'm 21 years old. KC: And you're Hmong? Project S: Yes, I'm Hmong. KC: And the most important question I have to start with is what name can I use? I never use anybody's real name when I talk about the interviews. S: Sad. KC: Sad. S: That's an old name. Society KC: That's an old gang name? Research S: Urn huh. KC: When did you first become aware of gangs? S: I think when I was ...... specify what you mean by that. Aware of gangs. KC: You knew that there was such a thing.Gang Kind oflike when you did you first become aware of ...... shoes. Historical S: I think when I was five, six. KC: And what was your first awareness? S: Watching TV. Um ....Youth anything on TV. Violence on TV. Um . .I think it was a move on skinheads. Thas when I first realized that there was something out there that other people didn't really know about. At least I didn't know about. KC: What did you think? Was there an attraction at that time? S: That time I was a bit too young. I was kinda scared, but.. .. when I hit sixth grade, then we started having clicks.Minnesota An, I saw older girls, cuz I grew up in McDonough Homes, that clicked ... an guys. So, that's what...... it seemed interesting. KC: WhatMinnesota did you get out of being in a click? When you started having clicks in McDonough, what did you get out of being in it? 2.41 S: Fame. Um ... power. KC: Tell me more. S: I don't know. That time I was still young it was jus hang out with 2, 3 girls ... um, older than me. I always seemed ta fit in with older girls than younger ones. Urn, I dunno, it jus made me feel like I was part a something, ya know. My mom was never home, she was um ... full

time student, a full time um ... worker. She was never home. No one was home with me, except for me an my brother an a younger brother which was probably a toddler, three years old. An, um ... .it made me feel young instead a old. Where I would have responsibilities of cooking breakfast, lunch, dinner. Cleaning the kids, mopping, cleaning the house. Um .. .it made me feel like I had power ta do whatever. Ya know, I didn't have to be what my mom wanted me ta be anymore. KC: Is that part ofHmong culture for oldest daughters to take care ofthe children ifparents need to be doing something else? S: Yes, it is. It's .. .it' s just something that's been goin on for generations. Where a young girl at age nine or ten, if they're the oldest daughter, is responsibile for everything. Whenever there mom is not present. KC: How does that aspect ofHmong culture fit into the expansion of gangsProject in America? S: I think it's because we see ... .like on TV, or here at school of girls goin out on Friday nights or some sort of thing like that. Um.. .it makes us feellike .... we.... why can't we be like that. Ya know, why can't we go out on Fridays for like a few hours, or something. We're forbidden to that, ya know, so .... .it makes us rebel against our parents. Every little thing we can think of, just to make our parents realize that this is something we want. 5.58 Society KC: Let's go on with Sad's story and then we'll comeResearch back and talk more about Hmong culture and gangs. Basically, what I want you to do is tell me your story of being in the gang. S: Ok. Um .. .I believe the first time I encountered kickin it with gangs an straight just, ya know, bein a thug is I think .... um .. .I was 12. Um .. .I was, I believe a 7th grader. I was goin to Washington Jr. High an there was whenGang it was a first generation a White Tigers an the first generation of Cobra's broke out. An, um.. .I don't know, I was a perfect kid in school, perfect kid. Got straight A's all the time.Historical Didn't miss a single day at school even ifI was sick. But, when I came at home then everything would be different. Um.. .I was very secluded to myself, I didn'tYouth wanna be around people ... um ... ofthe family. I would wait for my mom ta go ta go ta work. As soon as she leaves then I'm out a the house. An, um... .I started kickin with them for um.. awhile. At first it was just, ya know, goin out for an hour jus ta see them an talk ta them an everything. Then I started dating on of them. An, um... at that time he was the leader of White Tigers, I started dating him. An then ... .it was different then, cuz when I datedMinnesota him, they had enemies an I would get harassed by his enemies, ya know. So, that's where it all started retaliation was then. An then... um.. .I started having this attitudeMinnesota where I was like a guy, too. Ya know, where no one can talk ta me, no one can look at me wrong... um... no one can speak wrongly of my friends or ... or even ifI did something wrong, I was still right. An, I stayed kickin it with White Tiger for, I think, a year an a half An then we started a gang called OCS, Original Crip Sisters. An.. um... that consist of all the biggedy, badest an most famous girls in St. Paul that were Hmong. Ya know, there was .... must a been like 15,20 of us. We were only ~ an 8th graders but we beat up girls that were 9th an 10th grade, so we thought they we were jus everything an everything. KC: Did you beat up other Hmong girls or girls from other cultures? 9.20

S: Both. Both, whoever like walked our path an, ya know, looked at us wrong or we heard something wrong or ...... it could be anything. It could be fromjust ..... they didn't walk right, ya know. We had a problem with that, cuz they didn't walk right or the way they dressed or the colors they wore, or if they were wearing the same thing we were. Something .... something like that, it would just tick us off, ya know. Then um ... that was the simple part. After that I believe um .. .1 was a 9th grader, I think I was 13 .... 13 an a half, I went to Como Sr. High and um .. .it was mid-semester of the first. .. .it was the first quarter of the first semester an um .. .r d gotten five A's an one B+ for chemistry college prep an that ticked the hell out a my parents. So, um .. .1 lived with my step dad an my mom an I came home an my grades got home before I did, so urn ... my dad an my mom hung me downstairs in the basement where we had hooks an hung me, made me stand on the folding chair an hung my arms out like Jesus, ya know. An whipped me with that for three days.Project Without no food, jus water. KC: They like tied your arms up so .... 10.4- S: They tied my arms by the wrists an with ropes .... an with clothesline ropes an um ... tied it to the hooks on each side of the walls an made me stand on the chair tiptoed an urn ... they whipped me with belts and chains because I got one B+ in chemistry.Society KC: And they didn't let you go to sleep, you had toResearch stay there for three days. S: Yeah. Um ... they would hang me during the day time an then tie my ankles with chains at night and would tie me to a pole .. um ... like pipes ... um ... at McDonough an um ... on Tuesday ... I couldn't go to school for the whole weekend, an then on Tuesday I went to school and I saw one a my friends, Nue, an then IGang told her .. .1 said .... she asked me how come I walked the way I did an then I showed her the welts that were on my legs an on my back an the bruises on my head and everything. So, she said,Historical Sad, run away, ya know. Cuz, at that time there wasn't any kind a, ya know, organizations thas gonna do anything, ya know. I didn't know what ta do, so ... .1 didn'tYouth know who ta go ... to help .... nobody. I didn't want ta go ta no counselor and get shipped offta no shelter home or um ... ya know ... so, I ran away. KC: Why didn't you want to go to a counselor and get shipped off to a shelter home? S: Because, ifl would of done that, then my family would of been disgraced. If anybody was ta know of things that were in the home. I didn't, I felt like I was bad, because I got a B+, ya know, and I didn'tMinnesota wanna disgrace my family any more than that. 12.40 KC: Sad,Minnesota was this type of discipline traditional in Hmong culture? S: Yes. Um .. .in our culture, discipline was just to get a whoopin. KC: When you ran away, where did you go? S: I ran away to ... um .... a boyfriends house. Um... he was another White Tiger. Um ... he was older than I was though. He was much older. I was scared a him, but, I didn't have nowhere ta go, so I had ta go there. Um ... I hate him now. But, I have my reasons for hating him, but I got busted like a week after that. KC: Busted by the police? S: Yeah.

KC: How come? Who busted you? S: To Cha (sp) he busted me. He was my uncle. He busted me um... at Mt. Airey, at my cousins house, so he made me come back home. Well, he didn't make me, but my mom and dad made me. I only stayed home for, I think, a month. I ran away again. Urn ... my parents wouldn't let me go ta regular public school, so they shipped me to S1. Bernards. 14.29 Um.. .I think it's a catholic school, or private school over there. An, um.. .I went to school there for awhile, but I didn't like it there, cuz there wasn't no Asian girls there an I didn't feel comfortable, so I ran away .... um ... cuz, I knew... .I didin't go to school even though my mom shipped me to school, in my bag would be another set of clothes that I would switch out of, walk over to Como High School to meet my other friends an we'd ditch again. An then, from there I knew that when my grades came, my parents were gonna kill me, so I left, I ran away to um .. Eau Claire, Wisconsin. I stayed there at a house, this guy'sProject house. Um ... he .... he didn't try ta do anything bad ta my or anything. I was one a the lucky ones that, ya know, nothing of .. no gang banging or nothin like that ever happened to. When I went there he ... he treated me like I was his little sister. KC: This was a Hmong man? S: Yes. 15.47 Society KC: So you went to Wisconsin. Did you get there throughResearch gang connections or...... S: Yeah, I was getting there through a gang called AK and some MOD's. KC: Asian Crips and ...... S: Nope, Asian Knights an ... um... MOD's. KC: How long did you stay in ...... this wasGang Eau Claire? S: Yeah. Yeah, I was in Eau Claire. I stayed there for oh... 1 think three, four months. Urn .. KC: Were you affiliated with gangs while youHistorical were there? S: Yeah, I was a AKG. Um .. .I got into there, just walked me in. KC: AKGis? Youth S: Asian Knight Girls. I only stayed there for like three months. Then I came back home. Um . .I came back home an I stole $800 from my mom an then I ..... AK came picked me back up ... um ... three males and ... three males from Wisconsin and three males from California, I mean three females from California, came an picked me up. Those three females are real good friends a mine.Minnesota They came picked me up an urn ... we took off ta Detroit, Michigan where we stayed for I think three months. KC: WhatMinnesota kind of gang activities did you do while you were in Eau Claire and in Detroit? S: In Detroit we didn't do any kind of gang activities. But, in Eau Claire we ahh ... done beat up a lot a girls. Um... stole a lot a cars, um... petty thefts like stereo .... steal stereos. Um ... that was it there. There wasn't much gang activity there, cuz it was a little town an we couldn't of got away with everything. Urn .... after Detroit, I came back home. Things go worse at home. Um... me an my step dad did not get along. I'd gotten older, so I learned .... not to take any kind a beatings from them anymore. Urn ... KC: Had there been beatings all this time? 18.29

S: Yeah. All my life. Urn ... all my life I've been getting beat up by my parents. KC: When was the last time you were beaten? S: Up to a year ago, I think. KC: How do you feel about that? S: I don't understand why. I don't.. . .I don't...... think there's better ways than that, because it's not gonna do me anything. Jus gonna drive me away from it. KC: Are all the beatings with the severity that you described before with belts and being tied up and .... with belts and chains and all. 19.29 S: Not all the time. It can be from chairs to belts to shoes. Um ... clothes hangars. KC: Do both your mom and step dad do the beating? S: My step dad doesn't beat me with those things, he hits me withProject his fists, but my mom does ... with stuff KC: Sad, is this typical in all Hmong homes? S: Yes. That's one thing, the rest a the world don't know, is that we've always been .... we've never...... for our parents they've never seen this kind of a world before. Where there was so much violence, so much people against people. Racism to jobs, money .... we ... they've always lived in somewhere where a village is a big family, it's justSociety a extra big family. And there wouldn't be any kind of things goin on. And, whoeverResearch did do something bad over there was executed, ya know. Shame ..... causing shame is the worst thing that someone can ever do. Making your parents lose face, your family, relatives. And, our parents don't know how to deal with it any other way, but ta hit kids. They think disciple is to hit the shit out of kids until they listen. Until they think thatGang it's in our heads. They think they can knock it into us, but that's not even true. Historical KC: So, you learned the violence at home. Did you find that that made you a more violent gangser? Youth 2l.21 S: Yes. After I left Detroit and I came back home I ran away to California for a year and 8 months. Or, 8 I;2 months. Um ... when I went down there I got initiated into MOD girls. And, when I was an MOD girl I was not treated like ... .like a girl, ya know. Um ... a lot of gang girls that I see, getMinnesota treated like they're a sex object, or if not that, it's jus .... a shield. Which I didn't ... um . .I was MOD girls leader, um .. .I held guns, did a lot a shootings, um .. .I was responsibleMinnesota for some guys, which were Jr. MOD, at a point of my life ... where ... .I had power. That time I didn't feel scared of nothin. Ya know, um .. .I felt like a guy, acted like a guy, dressed like a guy. I didn't even date, ya know. I thought that was gross. KC: Do girl gangsters take on being guys more? I mean, how do you describe girl gangters? S: I think we, to describe it everybody is different, but I can only speak for myself that I was more like a guy. And the girls that I knew that were gangsters were more like a guys, where we wouldn't take no bull shit from nobody. From .. .if can be from the cops, to our parents to our friends ...... to enemies. We didn't even talk like decent girls anymore. We jus... all we talked like was ... cussin. Every word came out a our mouth was jus cussing an how we're

gonna go get this person, how we're gonna take revenge on that person. Planning things, ya know, we even pimped girls. Ya know, we pimped girls before, we've, ya know, plotted ways pretendin we're gonna date this guy from a different set that was our enemy just so we could bring them to our gang so they can beat the shit out of them or somethin. We've.... 24.l8 KC: When I talk about females in gangs, I talk about three levels. One being all female gangs, one being associate members of male gangs, and the third being auxiliaries. And the auxiliaries are the girls that are mostly used for sex and jus used. The associate members will have their own, they'll be doing their own crimes, they'll have their own business, but they never can really get rank because it's a guys gang. Would you say that you've held both positions of being an all girl gang and associate members of male gangs? Or, mostly have you just been in the all girl gangs? Project S: I think it's been both. Both. KC: We have had a change oflocation, we are at Marydale park, and it is a gorgeous day. 25.22 KC: When you were in California was it predominantly female gangs that you were running with? S: No, it was male. It was basically .... MOD is a male gang. Um .. .it's a big, it's more oflike a mafia gang, cuz ... .in the United States ifit 's just Asian gangs Societyalone, not including Black gangs or White gangs or Hispanics or Latino's whateverResearch .... an it's just Asian gangs ... um ... MOD would rank the most populated. Because we are through, they are throughout the United States, every state, every town. KC: Is that the gang that you consider yourself having the most affiliation with? S: Yes. Um.. .IwasMODgirlfromwhenlwasGang 15,14 ... 14 Y2allthewayuptilwhenlwasI9. KC: And, MOD stands for? S: Menace of Deception. Historical KC: So, mostly you've been like an associate member, or did they allow you to have rank? Did they allow you to run theYouth gang? S: I was ranked as MOD girls leader. Um... at one point I was a coordinator. Which was sort oflike, in a larger community .... a mayor. Um.. .I had total control of one city, where um. .if someone's gonnamake a hit out on somebody or do drive-by they would haftaget ok'd from me. An, whatever I said goes. With MOD, they respected me, they gave me a lot a power where whatever I saidMinnesota goes. Ya know, I didn't hafta get a ok from this person, or .... there wasn't nobody tellin me what ta do except for their original leader. An, he was much older, butMinnesota he loved me like a sister an he said that with his own words. Instead of him letting me be like all the other MOD girls an run around an do whatever, he would always tell me ta stay home ... um ... don't do drugs, don't drink. But, he said it in a manner where it wasn't. ... accusin me already .. .it was jus tellin me that those stuff wasn't good. He's always told me that I can do better than jus do drugs an everything else an that he'd rather see me not be an MOD girl, than be an MOD girl, cuz that wasn't gonna get my anywhere. And, he .. .I knew he loved me for some odd reason, not as in a boyfriend girlfriend way, but in like a brotherly way ... a sister way. He was just, whenever I had any conflicts of any boy issues he was always there, even though I was runaway, he would never let me starve. He took me in like a sister. Um ... he

helped me find ajob while I was down there. Urn .. .! felt that lowed him the world, ya know. KC: Now this is the national leader of MOD in California? S: Yeah. He is, even until this day, even though I'm not a MOD girl anymore, I don't have no one ta thank but him. Urn ... .! mean after I left California and I came back up to Minnesota ... urn .. .! went back to my drugs. Urn .. .!'ve never did any kind of stuff like cocaine, crank, rock or nothing ... but, it was jus weed an alcohol. I was a alcoholic. Um ... drinking was a everyday thing for me. I couldn't stop drinking. Urn .. .! couldn't stop smoking weed, I mean it's not addictive, weed is not addictive, but um ... things at home weren't ok. I felt like I lost power when I came back to Minnesota. Things jus didn't seen right no more. KC: Let's jus side track, because one of the questions I always ask is when you've been using chemicals the most, how much were you using? Like how much were you drinking a day and how much weed were you smoking? Project S: There was a point in my life where I smoked an ounce a day .... of weed, from the minute I get up all the way to the minute when I go to sleep. Drinking .... two 40's ... .40 ounces. Two, three 40 ounces a day. Um ... when I started using drugs I was .. .! had a real bad temper, where it was worse than before. I mean when some little thing get me mad, I'd go off at the world. Ya know, no one could look at me. My parents didn't understand why I was having that kind of attitude anymore, cuz they never believed that a Societyyoung Asian girl, a Hmong girls would ever use drugs. Well, what they don't know,Research what most parents don't know is all of the Hmong kids these days are using drugs. Ya know, back then it was jus weed an alcoho.1 Now it's crank, crack, rock, ya know, heroine use is not that big in the Hmong community, but everything else is. Especially crank now, crank an rock, it's gotten really bad. KC: What percentage of the kids involvedGang in gangs are using the crank and the crack? 31.28 S: The crank and the crack now days, I wouldHistorical say 80%. Weed about 100%. KC: What about the Hmong teenagers that aren't involved in gangs? S: 75% use weed. Youth KC: But, not the crank and the crack? S: Not the crank and the crack, but alcohol, weed ... if they're not gang affiliated or gang members they use ... they use drugs and urn ... they smoke weed. I mean, I can walk into a college right now and see college, Hmong kids .... "ya wanna drink, Sad,?", ya know, ''ya wanna smoke weed?"Minnesota KC: So, drinking and smoking weed is just a normal part of young Hmong culture right how? S: Yep.Minnesota It grew like . .instead of us bein like how we use to where goin ta school an help farm an stuff, right now it's gang baning an weed. An our Hmong community is very corrupted right now. 32.18 KC: By the adults using alcohol and marijuana? S: I don't think the adults are using marijuana, but a lot of the adults use opium. KC: Is this the older adults, or even those in their 30's and 40's? S: 30's, 40's. Um ... old people use, I've seen .. .increase by far too with um ... older gang members. Because I know a few guys that do opium, or was on opium, which is very

addicting. Um... for several years, because their parents did. An, I don't know how it feels, I don't wanna know how it feels, but to them it's a part of their life, too. KC: Have you ever done crank: or crack? Tried it out? S: Nope. I've smoked rock..um .. once. But, I've never did it just for the simple fact that I've had a mend, she was a MOD girl, when I was down in California she was havin a lot a problems an um... she .. .I never really paid attention to what she was saying to me until the night she passed away from overdosing on drugs. On rock, crank:, crack, heroine, weed, acid. L.we didn't even know she died, ya know. She was jus laying on the floor, purple, we thought that maybe she passed out. But, when I kicked her she didn't move an I kicked her again, she didn't move .... an then foam started comin out a her mouth an thas when I realized that she was dying. Um... as gang members we didn't know what ta do, ya know. So, we had ta jus take her to her home. An leave her on her doorsteps. Project KC: Where was this? S: That was in Fresno, California. KC: So, you didn't take her to the hospital?

S: No. Because she was ... we knew there was nothing we or the doctors can do then, cuz she was lying on the ground forever. All of us, I was high ... .like Societyhell, ya know, I was trippin acid like crazy an I didn't.. ... when you trip on acid,Research you don't realize ... you realize things more then, for me you realize things. It makes you know things, an makes you see the world how.... as it is, ya know. It's like a reality check, ya know, for me. An, when I saw her lying there it didn't an I was trippin on acid, I didn't cry, I didn't panic, an I don't know why. I think .. .I felt relieved for her, cuz sheGang was away now, she didn't hafta worry no more. Cuz, being a gangster is like ... .living a life of hell. In a whole different world, in a whole different life where nobody sees you anymore. TheHistorical larger community is gone out a your life. It's jus you an your thugs against the other thugs, thas it. An it's in a world where you're shoes, it's like you're walking withYouth shoes that are made of spikes an stones an pokey thorns. Which if people of the larger community or your parents were to every wear, they wouldn't even be able to walk on it for few seconds, but we've been walking on it for years. An, nobody seems to realize that we jus can't stop it our self Somebody gotta help stop it. Cuz we didn't grow up saying, when we were younger kids ...... I know I didn't grow up saying I'm gonna grow up ta be a thug or I'mMinnesota gonna grow up ta beat up people. 36.53 KC: IfMinnesotayou're walking on these very painful shoes, why do kids keep walking on them? Why don't they ...... S: It's the power. It's the power, the excitement, it's something for you to do instead a jus bein home an um •••• be bored an have parents on your back all the time. You rather go through all these hard stutTwhere, where if you hada walk all day ta get somewhere, you'd rather walk all day, instead a sit at home an get yelled at, ya know. KC: Talk more about the power. That's the last thing Bill said when he left, was talk about the power. S: It makes you feel like you have a choice to do things. You have a choice to say

'-.". COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 === 651-227-5987 Sad 9

whatever an no one can say anything to you. Um .•. you have, when you're at home you don't have the power to say "I'm not gonna do this" an ya know, there's gonna be someone, there's always gonna be someone there ta say "no, you can't'. But then when you're in a gang life, you can do whatever. Breaking the law is one of our best things that we do, an sometimes when there's other gang members there that are more civilized gang members I would say, they tell you "no don't do that". But, besides that 99.9% a the time some.•... everybody's gonna agree with you, ya know. You can do whatever, I mean you can stay out all night long an not have nothin ta worry about. You can pick up a gun an start shootin in the air if you're bad as hell an ya know •••. you just have... the power in your own little world to do your own little thing. KC: Why is having the freedom and the choices so important? 38.47 Project S: Because, isn't it important to everybody else? I mean ..... KC: Why was it so important for you? S: It was important for me cuz I had no choice growing up. I had no choice. I had ta live the way my mom wanted me ta live. Be a straight A kid, couldn't have no problems, couldn't have no friends. I didn't have the choice to have a boyfriend or not, my boyfriends were choosed for me. Ya know, I didn't haveSociety a choice for what classes I had ta take, ya know. I mean bein a 9th graderResearch havin chemistry advanced placement college prep, that was hard, ya know, that was really hard. I knew I wasn't stable an ya know •.• I didn't like chemistry at all. But, that was my parents choice ta take..•. for me ta take that class. Now, when I was ... when you're a gang member, you do have choices to either do this or do that.Gang Ya know, like somebody says, ya know, let's go smoke weed or ya know, let's go beat up somebody. You say, na, not today, ya know, I don't want to. An then there's not gonnaHistorical be no one ta be there ta tell ya you hafta smoke weed, ya know. But, then when it comes to beating up somebody you would have to though. WhetherYouth you like it or not, you would have to. KC: Well, that sounds like the two sides that I hear a lot of - I've got freedom and choices to do what ever I want, except that when the gang tells me to do it I have absolutely none. And, I think adults have problems seeing that kids really see that they have the choices when the leaders of the gang have them do things that are sometimes very violent and obnoxious. 40.40 Minnesota S: I think parents, I think for Hmong parents specifically, it's hard for them to see their kidsMinnesota grow up and live life the way they want to. I think it's hard for them to see their little girl or their little boy grow up and have a life where there not gonna ..... they might feel that they're not wanted any more, cuz they don't have no kind a, ya know, degree in anything. They're gonna be useless to us when we grow up an stutT. But, that's not necessarily true. Ya know, cuz all we need is to be a somebody to our parents. Ifmy mom was ta say to me, ya know,you done a goodjob an I'm really proud a you and I'm proud a the things that you're doing and whether through thick or thin I'm behind you 100% in all the choices that you make. And, ifyou have a downfall, I'm there ta pick you back up. Then that's all it would take, is just a little hug and simple words.

KC: Has your mom ever said that to you? S: No. KC: Do you think she's ever capable of it? S: No. KC: Have gang members said that to you?

S: Yeah. KC: Were you somebody important in the gang? S: Yeah. I was very important. I mean, to me I liked it because I had fame. Ya know, you can ask basically any gang member do you know who I am? And, everybody will beyeah... yeah, I know who she is. Ya know, whether it's in a way, where they hate me or whether it's in a way where they do like me or they're scaredProject a me, whatever. 42.34 KC: Is gang life in California different than it is here? S: No. It's not. Up here the laws are more strict, there's more authority everywhere where you won't get away with a lot a stuff But, it's still the same thing. Same thing allover the place, whether it's with White gangs, Black gangs, Hispanics, Hmong, Laos, Thais, Vietnamese, it's the same thing. Um . .I don't see, I don't see there much beingSociety ... the Vietnamese or Cambodian gang girls as bad as Blacks and Hmong. Urn .. fromResearch my eyes and Mexicans, um . .I think, I think there's a lot a things that's lost. Cuz, I know that there's a gap between me an sometimes you can't explain what's.... why you're in a gang. Cuz, it's just there, it's sorta like something that's just a grow up stage now. KC: But, you know why you're in a gang.Gang I mean, you've thought about it, you're real clear why you've been in a gang? S: Yes. I've thought about it for years. TheHistorical day I walked in, even to right now. My gangs and my friends now is my family. Cuz I know that they're not gonna come hitting on me for any odd reason if I do somethingYouth wrong. And they'll be behind me through thick or thin. And they're not gonna be like my mom or my dad that's gonna hang me for days and criticize me for every little thing I do wrong. And, I know that whenever I need a shoulder ta cry on, they'll be there. KC: In the gangs do they do a lot of violence? Hitting on kids within the same gang? Did you get beat into the gang?Minnesota 45.25 S: Yeah.Minnesota I think the reason ofinitiation like that is because, you want to see how... what you can take. If you can take a beating, ya know, you're willing to take a beating from 20 people, ya know, then next time when there's an enemy around an there's like 20 ofthem and only you, you won't back off and you'll be true to the gang. Ya know, you won't say that ... .it's just ta show your respect and how much you um ..... they show, there isn't no perfect word to explain why I am in a gang, or I was in a gang because there's so many, do you know what I mean? There's so many reason, it could be every little reason in the world for a person to be in a gang. It wouldn't even take a beating from a parent to be in a gang. Cuz, they're there.

KC: Are there less beatings in the gang then there are from .... well, have you experienced less beatings in the gang, than you have from your parents? S: Yes. You only get one beating, that's ta come in. You get violations, which won't ever.. .. for me, I got a violation cuz I dated someone out of a different set, that was our enemy.

KC: What was the violation? S: Five blows to the chest. Ya know, that's like 5 big punches to the chest. Which will .... could kill you ifit's from a guy that could punch real hard. KC: When I guy is doing that to a female, do they give it high on the chest or do they punch you in the breasts where it can really hurt? S: High. High in the chest where it can knock you out. KC: It's as if the family you were born into, when you didn't live by their Projectrules, you were violated, which were beatings at home. And then you joined a different family and if you didn't live by their rules you got violated, but you lived by their rules so you only got violated once. Do you kind of see the comparison of one gang and the other? What's the difference, is it because you choose the second set of rules? 48.16 S: I think the difference is because I felt wanted from the otherSociety.... from the gang, unlike the family. Ya know, you feel wanted by your gangResearch members and you know that they need you. Ya know, cuz they call you on a regular basis, every day they .... for you to go do things with them. Picnic ... ya know, it's not necessarily all the time bad. Ya know, as what the world sees it, because this is a whole bunch a friends being there for each other, not letting nobody mess with them, ya know. That's the bigGang thing, is ta be there for each other, ya know, it's .... ya know when I'm in a gang someone .. .I can just walk somewhere an nobody can talk anything ta me, ya know. If someone would talkHistorical anything ta me, I know that I have a big 01 family that's right behind me saying, ya know, you guys better quit it, ya know. [--- wind sound? ------trainYouth sound!!!!] KC: With all the news this week they've talked about how important children are to Hmong families, and that children are valued in Hmong families. And that's why Hmong came to this country to get a new life for their children. But, what I hear you saying, is that the gang gave you a sense of being valued more than your family did. How are children valued in Hmong families where the Minnesotachildren aren't able to feel that value? S: I think with parents they have a ...... back in our country the children were what mattered, that'sMinnesota why we have like 12 kids in a family. Because you keep your parents name and the last name of your father and that keeps on going. To girls it's not so valued in a family, because when you get married, you get the last name of your husband and you don't .... a lot ofgirls know that an they don't feel valued in the family, from the day ofbirth until whenever. Children are valued with Hmong people in a way where it's beneficiary to the parents, cuz the parents will get the name. KC: So children are valued because they are an object to be valued? S: Yes. KC: But, not valued for their individual uniqueness as human beings?

S: No. We get valued for what we do for your parents. Even if I go to school and get my Masters, they're not gonna say I went and got my Masters Degree. They're gonna say this an this daughter got a Master Degree, that's it. You don't hear nothin more than that. But, with the gang, ifyou do something right they don't say, ya know, this an this, like this an this daughter went an got...did this. They say, you're name, ya know, like Sad did this, ya know, an Sad did that. Ya know, an everybody's givin you handshakes an high fives an saying, ya know, you did this an you did that, ya know. A+ on your side, more props to you, ya know. But, then .... even being a community person as I am right now, I don't hear people say - Sad did this, or Sad did that. I hear people say my parents name. An say da, da, da's daughter is like this an like that, ya know. 52.33 KC: How does that feel? Project S: You don't even feel human no more. I feel like I was jus born on this earth jus ta live a life for my parents. I made my parents what they are today. That's how I feel. I think that's how a lot of kids feel. A lot ofHmong kids. We make our parents what we are ...... what they are. If you have good kids, you have good name. If you don't have positive kids, and kids that get into a lot of trouble, gang bang an stuff, that again, is your reputation. They'll say. .da, da, da 's kid went an robbed a store last night, or da, da, daSociety 's kid is a gang member or does drugs. They don't say the kids name either. Research KC: When have you felt that you were important just for being Sad? S: When have I felt important? KC: You as a human being? As a beautiful woman? 53.35 Gang S: Was when I decided tajus leave my past an start over. I felt like I was goin nowhere for so long. 20 years of my life. And for the firstHistorical time this year, I finally got on my feet and said, I'm gonna do something, cuz I'm tired of all this, ya know, I'm tired of .... .I'm tired of these gang bangers .... being thereYouth for each other, but then not being there for each other. And, I'm tired of all these Hmong parents looking down on their kids. Expecting their kids to be something that they will never be. I want them to let their kids live their life, whether it's going through a hard time and then getting back up on their feet, like how I did. Or, to just.. .. just let that kid live their life an love the kid for what they are and for what their hardships an how hardMinnesota they try ta live this life. Cuz, it's hard, living in America and being Hmong ... really having to respect your culture, at the same timer respecting your family, but thenMinnesota again living the kind of life that you see on TV, ya know. Goin out an havin fun with your friends, spending time with your friends, living a teenage life. A regular, American teenager life. And, I don't think it's fair. KC: What made you decide to make the change? 55.--- S: I think it was um .. J stopped gang banging when I was 19, an that was due to .... everything that I've lived while I was being a gang member, pimping girls ... um... there was a incident one time when a female snitched out on one of our gang members. She was in our gang, too, but she was just a undercover person an she got busted, she got gang raped. <.. COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 === 651-227-5987 Sad 13

KC: What's an undercover person? S: Like an unknown gang member. Like someone that does .... pretends to be your friend an comes into your set, just ta find information just to give to her real set, ya know. KC: So, she was undercover for another gang? S: Yeah. An that caused one of our homies life, ya know. An, I felt like .... KC: He being undercover ... an MOD was killed? S: Yeah. An MOD was killed. KC: Who? S: Hamburger. He was shot an killed. Urn ... KC: Where was this? S: That was in Fresno, California. That was my first one. An then the 2nd one was, his name was Horse, urn ... Project KC: And she was involved in both of them getting killed? S: Yeah. She was my best friend. She was the best friend I ever had, because she always told me that I was better than bein a thug an that I'm much smarter than any average thug would ever be. An, even when her own real gang wanted ta kill me an do all these things ta me, she wouldn't let them. And, now she's crippled for life. She can't talk no more, she's paralyzed from the waist down. Society KC: Tell me what happened to her? Research S: What? KC: You're gang then beat her up because you found out she was undercover? S: Yeah, they raped her. They raped her until she couldn't fight no more, they broke her legs, they stabbed her. I watched the wholeGang thing, but I couldn't do anything. Because, ifI woulda tried ta stop it, I woulda been killed myself, too. KC: When did you find out that she had beenHistorical undercover? S: Um .. .1 found out a week before the incident happened to her. KC: How long had she beenYouth hanging out with you undercover? S: Two years. Two years. She, you would never think that she would be, because she shot with other .... she shot her own people with us, she's.... beat up her own friends with us, but .... that was her job. Being a gangster is like being ..... having a job. It's like you're an assassin, in a way. Um ... then again it's like you're living .... you're having a family to protect. And protecting your familyMinnesota it your gangs. 59.07 KC: So,Minnesota you knew for a week that she was going to be violated? S: I knew she was going to get killed. They were gonna kill her. KC: What was that like having that information? Could you tell her? S: I was going to one time. When I was talking to her on the phone, she called me ta go to the movies and I started crying an then I told her I couldn't go. An then she said how come? An I said - oh, cuz my boyfriend wouldn't go, but ...... 1 don't know how I felt. I felt she deserved it, but that's when my soft side started hitting me an say .... but, she's human and she's jus doin what she had ta do, cuz I woulda done the same thing, too. KC: But, she ended up not dying?

S: She didn't die. KC: She did? S: She didn't, she just got raped, now she's paralyzed. She can't talk no more. They made sure she couldn't talk, they slit her tongue. KC: This all happened in Fresno? S: Yeah. An ..... KC: How come they had you watch? Or, did you jus happen to be there when they were gonna do it? S: I had to watch. Because, I think it was a threat from my own gang to me. Saying that this will happen to you, ifthis is what you're doin to. Because me an her were really close friends. An, when I say that, it jus.... 1 didn't wanna be a gang member no more. I didn't wanna be a gangster no more ever since then. Even though I was for .... for aProject year after that, I didn't wanna be down with them no more, ya know. I didn't. . .1 mean they took her away from me. Ya know, I mean, yes she took away my boyfriend an my friend. KC: So, one of the people that was killed was your boyfriend? S: Yeah. We were gonna get married two days before that happend to him. KC: Sad, help me understand that kind of a commitment to a group where then you violate, you know, you kill your best friends boyfriend? Society S: It's just something you have ta do. That's whyResearch it's so hard for everybody to get out. Cuz they jus ..... at the beginning it's whoopie do. Everything's perfect, what you've always wanted. An you have lifetime friends. An you know there's always gonna be something there for you, but you can't break no rules. You can't, there's nO ... there'snowhat ifs, you do ... .if you break a rule, that's on you. YaGang know, an KC: Have you seen her since this beating? 103.01 Historical S: Yeah. I saw her when I was 19 at a Fresno New Year. KC: Did she know that youYouth had to watch it all? S: Yeah. I mean when they did that to her, I was right by her side, I held her hand, ya know. KC: You're standing there holding her hand and they're gang raping her? S: Yeah. KC: How many people raped her? S: I dunno, seventy. Minnesota KC: Seventy? S: ItMinnesota was the whole California MOD's basically. KC: They asked you to stand there and hold her hand. S: No. They didn't. .. first they told me.... they forced me to hold down her arms and her legs, but I couldn't do it. An then I held her arms, while these two other girls that been MOD girls for years were the ones to hold her arms. They hit her on the head with a 40 bottle, twice. I don't know why she didn't knock out, but...1 wish they woulda killed her, because ... now she's living a life suffering for gangs. KC: Is she mentally handicapped, as well, now? 104.19

S: Yes. She can't talk ... she stutters. She can't stand seeing us. Cuz, I think in her mind she's stuck on that day. An when she sees us, she screams and yells and shakes. Even though we don't do nothing for her, we're far from her. KC: Were you angry with you because she had killed your boyfriend? At the time of this attack? 104.49 [some wind sound] S: I didn't know how to feel, to tell you honestly. I didn't know how to feel. Because, here she was my best friend an here he was my boyfriend. And, I was so confused, cuz I didn't know what to do. I hated her, but then again I hated him. Because, ifhe didn't do all the things that he did, that wouldn't a never happened ta him. An, if she didn't do what she.... .if she wasn't the other enemy it would of never happened to her. An, I hated them both, because they made me stuck, ya know, in the middle of gang war an then againProject to my best friend an my boyfriend. Now, I lost both of them an I'm the one that's hurting. I'm the one that's living it. An, that's what's making me stop, because everything that happens ... the bystanders an the other people .... the gang members are the one to ... the people that are doin it, don't live the pain that much. As the ones that are involved, innocently. An, I might not be fully innocent because I was a MOD girl, but I didn't deserve what she did and what he did. KC: What else did he do to you? Society S: I mean, he cost himself his life. That's what heResearch did, ya know. An now I can't even go on with the rest a my life because of him. I can't see myself dating another thug because of him. An, I can't love no more because a him. An, ever since he passed away, I haven't loved anybody. An, ever since she's been hurt like that, I haven't found myself a best friend either. An, there's so many reasons why peopleGang shouldn't be in gangs, but there's so many reasons why people should be. KC: What were all the types of things that youHistorical did when you were living in Fresno and an MOD Girl? You were the coordinator of the younger boys then? S: Yeah. Youth KC: And you were the head of the MOD Girls? S: Yeah. We beat up people. Um... shot at people. Um... robbed people, robbed stores. The robbing part was just so we'd have money. The shooting part was retaliation and power. I haven't killed anybody. But, I know people that have. 108.33 Minnesota KC: They ever get caught? S: What?Minnesota KC: Do they ever get caught? S: Most of em do. Mostly, all of them do. KC: What made you decide to come back? S: Cuz I couldn't life as a lie down there anymore. KC: What was the lie? S: Being happy with my gang members. As much as they brung light into my life an made me .... they're the ones that made me as strong as I am today. Cuz, I been through hell and back with em. Ya know, see life as what that world makes it. Ya know, seeing ... seeing what

the rest a the other world don't. The other world as in politicians and big business people an people that live in big 01 houses an stuff, those people tend to forget the rest of the world. An that's what makes this world so harmful. And that's why those people are in hanD, cuz they don't even know what's out there. KC: How did you get back to Minnesota? 109.-- s: I took a bus back. Um ... my um ... ex-boyfriend that passed away, his mom bought me a bus ticket back. Because she knew it was hard for me ta stay down there cuz I lived with them, cuz we were spose ta get married an um .. we ... .I dunno. I was pregnant at the time too, with his kid. An, I couldn't live down there anymore, cuz I lost the baby. KC: A natural miscarriage? s: Yeah. Cuz, I didn't eat. I was five months pregnant when he passedProject away. And, I lost the baby when I was in 8th month pregnancy. Um .... cuz I didn't eat for the last three months a my pregnancy I didn't eat, I didn't sleep. All I did was eat banana's and drink water. KC: At what point did you have to participate in this beating of your best friend? 111.35 S: At the beginning when urn ... they first brung her there. KC: Was this right after his death, at five months, or ? Society S: No... um .. .it was, I think two weeks after he passedResearch away. I never knew I was pregnant was the thing. Until I was like six months pregnant, cuz I didn't show or anything, I don't know why. Urn ... as soon as I found out that I was pregnant then .... he passed away an then I found out I was pregnant a week after I passed away, then a week after that, or a week an a half after that, that's when they did that toGang my best friend. After I told them that I was pregnant with his kid. After all the MOD's knew that I was pregnant with his kid. Um... their .. .leader of MOD's he cried because, he didn't understandHistorical why it all happened ta me an he yelled at me. He said I told you ta leave when you could, he said you coulda walked out, why didn't you? I didn't answer him.Youth KC: What do you do with all the pain? 113.13 S: What do I do? I haven't done anything, it's still there. Instead of being mad about my pain an taking revenge, I jus gotta grow stronger from it. Every day of my life, I have to live with the fact that my bestMinnesota friend is now in a wheelchair an she's never gonna be able ta walk again in her life an that my so called husband is now six feet deep, the baby that I was suppose ta carryMinnesota IS now gone. Thas what being a gangster caused me an it.. . .I don't wanna live that life no more. 114.02 KC: I hear that there was a lot of glamour and it turns into shit. S: That is what it does. It's ok to be friends with gangsters, cuz a the brightest things that you ever know, but to be one is not anything. It's just corruption and ...... KC: Was there a gang funeral for your husband or was it a traditional Hmong funeral? S: Both. A traditional Hmong funeral turned into a gang funeral. KC: What was this gang funeral like?

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S: People come in there in rags, MOD shirts, dumpin their MOD music outside, pourin brew, havin like a big 01 funeral party. I didn't like that though. But, that's what he wanted, too. KC: How did his family feel about it? S: His mom was devastated. She only just had two kids. Two sons. He was the oldest son, he had a younger brother. His mom is still devastated to this day, she's scared that her younger son's gonna grow up ta be a gangster, too, which he is. He's just another walking, talking vision of his brother. An ifthere's anything that I can do, I'll rescue him now, than later. But, everybody turns around .... nobody can make a gangster stop bein a gangster until they want to. 116.14 KC: But that's what you're trying to do, is help these kids want to stop? How do you help them want to stop? Project S: Tell them my own experiences. Cuz, nothings more better than the truth. You can offer these kids a million dollars, they wouldn't stop bein a gangster. They take your money an say ok. Walk away, right back into a thug life. Cuz, it's not easy to leave, as long as you been there for a long time. It's jus like cigarettes. If you're addicted to something, you're always gonna be addicted to it, it's gonna take you a long while ta stop. KC: Were you addicted to gang life? Society S: Yeah. I been in an out a different gangs my wholeResearch life, ya know. Four. 117.03 KC: Was the first gang, was that an all female gang? S: Yep. MODGang GANG KC: Have you been in any other all female gangs?Historical S: Um.. well, MOD Girl is all female gang, but it's jus that we live the name of MOD. KC: Is it closely connected to MOD boys? S: At some points it is, someYouth points it's not. We do our own little mischief, so. KC: Describe the differences. S: Well, the MOD boys they .... they're the ones that do the shootings an um... the real like fighting ... thug fights an stuff. Us, we do little back..behind the scenes stuff like um.. get information an run our own little pimping business, where pimp other girls an urn .. fight with our own little girl Minnesotafights here an there, an have our own fights with the other girls that are different gang fights. It's ... they're much different from us, they did their own thing an we didMinnesota our own thing. 118.22 KC: So you wouldn't have meetings together or anything like that? You really saw yourself as a separate organization? Like Minneapolis and St. Paul are separate cities? S: Yeah, it was like that .... except for ah .... me, I would, I had ta go ta like the guys meetings. Cuz, I ...... like I said before, I was more like a guy. Urn ... KC: So, did you bang with the guys as well as be the head of the MOD girls? S: Yes.

KC: How many MOD girls were there? S: Ah ..... too,many. MOD girls nationwide. KC: Were you head of all MOD girls nationwide? S: At first I was, but I couldn't handle it. Um .... there's too many, I couldn't handle it. So, I dropped out an became jus urn ... Stockton and St. Paul. KC: Stockton in California? S: Yeah. And, St. Paul girls up here, and Wisconsin. KC: So girls could go to boy MOD meetings and you would do stuff with the male MOD's as well as run the female MOD's. S: Um .... the girls couldn't do that. Only the girl coordinator's and leaders can. Like um ... there's a leader in Sacramento that are .. .is a girl, a leader in Fresno, Stockton. Minnesota has their own and Wisconsin has their own. But, WisconsinProject and Minnesota's connected cuz there's not so many, so ... they're together here. KC: What did you have to do to become MOD girl leader? 120.--- S: Nothing really. It was just the fact of how ta... .it's jus like a President of the United States. It's jus the way you talk, it's the way handle your problems, it's the way .... how you know how ta persuade a person. Urn ... the situations that come up,Society if you know how to handle it in the right way. Um . .1 think they seen me do thatResearch because 1 .... .1 carried myself more mature than what I. ... my age was. I was like 16, but I had the knowledge and the street smarts of, they would say a 24 year old girl would have. KC: Who appointed you MOD coordinator? S: MOD's nationwide leader. Gang KC: You mean the girls said - we want you to be the leader, Sad? S: No, the girls didn't have no say in it. Historical KC: So, the males appoint the female coordinator? S: Yes. An then at that timeYouth I appointed all the little ones in the lower towns, the leaders in every town of the girls. An, it's sorta like you have a big business an you have this ... the executive director and then you have me, which I was like the director ofthe girls and another guy that was a director of the guys. And, in every little department there would be one supervisor. An, I was the director below the executive director, so I'd find, ya know, supervisors for eachMinnesota little department. KC: Are there any all girl gangs that don't have any connection to boys? S: InMinnesota California? I don't think so, not that I can think of KC: In Minnesota? S: Yeah. Minnesota, there's um ... CQ, Crip Queens. Which they run their self There's still TTTAAG, which are older girls. They don't run with no kind a guys. Um... but those are the unheavy bangers. 122.26 KC: Are CQ a Hmong gang? S: Yeah. Both. Both are Hmong gangs. KC: Can you get me someone to interview?

s: I can give you their leader. She use ta be their leader, but she quit. KC: I mean, if you could see if she'd be willing to talk with me. You came back to Minnesota. You took the bus back to Minnesota. What happened then? S: Um ... I got off the bus an I walked from downtown to the West side to my home. When I got to the door, my mom an dad didn't recognize me. I got way thinner, um .. J had blonde hair, my mom didn't even know me. They thought I died. They had a funeral for me an everything. KC: They had a Hmong funeral for you? S: Yeah, a Hmong funeral. KC: Because they had disowned you, because you'd been gone for so long? S: No, cuz they thought I was dead. KC: Did somebody tell them you were dead? Project S: Yeah. Um .. J don't know who. But, the word got around that I died, cuz I was gone for so long. Almost two years. Urn. ..it felt weird, I didn't feel wanted, again. Like usual. Urn .. but, I decided when I lived at home, regardless to what my parents did to me, I'd never seen death in front a my face ..... but somehow it still made me miss my thug life. Cuz it was so exciting. It's exciting, you had power, there was a lot of hardships, but everybody pulls through cuz everybody's together. Where in a family, you're on your own,Society ya know. What problems I had, my mom an my dad didn't have .... they didn'tResearch know. KC: Did you tell them about what had happened? And the boyfriend and the pregnancy? S: No. KC: Do they know now? S: No. I can't tell them things likeGang that. I can't. If I was ta tell things like that, I'd probably be dead right now. Or, I ••••• they woulda kicked me back out in the streets again. Historical 124.56 KC: They would kill you ifYouth you told them those things? S: Yeah. Cuz, I'd be such a big disgrace to the family. KC: Even now after the Hmong community is saying - Sad, you're a leader, you're helping our kids? S: Yes. Hmong parents are very hard headed. They don't.. .. .it's their way or no way. A lot of younger Hmong parentsMinnesota adjust to the new society an it living modem day lives and are more understanding, more supportive for their kids. But, having parents like myself, that my mom hadMinnesota been a single mom for so many years and she doesn't believe in failure. More or less I don't think she wants me to be a failure, like her. I think she feels that, she's done a lot wrong and her life was hard, she doesn't want me to live a life that's hard. KC: You were born here she was born in Thailand? S: She was born in Laos, I was born here. KC: Do you have contact with your father? S: Rarely. KC: Is he here in the Twin Cities? S: Yeah. He lives here, he loves me. I know that. Out ofall the kids that he does have now,

and me an my brother, he loves me. He says that to me. But, I feel abandoned by him. Urn ... that's why maybe I saw myself with so much of a guy an I felt like I was the guy in the family. Cuz, I had a take care a my mom when she was sick. I had to make money for our family when my mom couldn't. KC: How did you do that? S: Worked. Sunday newspapers. Anything. KC: Why was mom sick? S: Anything. It could be from the flu to ... my mom has a lot ofum... she has um ... brain tumor. And, I know and she knows that brain tumor is very fatal. And, she's had a lot a brain surgeries. Um .. .it's not working ... um . .I know that, she doesn't have that long to live. That's another reason why I turned back. I forgive her for the things that she's done, cuz she didn't know better. I wish she would a known better, maybe then I wouldn'tProject of made the choices that I had to make. And, I love my mom because she's my mom. I don't have to like her, but I love her. I don't like her because a things she does, but.. ... and that's another thing why a lot a kids leave the family, cuz the parents don't say I love you. I never heard my mom say I love you in my whole life, now that I think of it. And you see, like on TV, Beverly Hills 90210, or whatever, they come back from school, the mommy an the daddy's like - hi son or pleasantville, ya know. Gives em a big 01 hug an he says - Societyhow's schools today? Hmong kids don't see that. There's love in the community,Research but it's just not shown. And that's one thing that...our elders need ta start doin because if they don't, there's not gonna be such a thing as Hmong any longer. Everybody's gonna be gone. KC: After you introduced yourself to your parents and said - this is Sad, did they let you come in and live there? Gang 129.3-- S: Yeah, my mom cried. And then she pushedHistorical me away. She said, are you sure you're not a ghost? An, I was like I'm sure, ya know. My mom was crying an she wanted ta know why I ran away and .... and thenYouth .... she was being so sympathetic an then the next minute she was like - do you know what you did to me? Do you know all the pain an all the things you caused me an all this an all that. And, I'm thinking - what do you think I did, ya know. But, I didn't bother ta say anything back ta my mom. An, back then there wasn't any kind a youth programs where there'd be someone like me, right now, goin out there an reachin for a kid. Whether it's good Minnesotaor bad, whether they like it or not, ya know, you're gonna go find them and you're gonna be there for them. And care for them for who they are. Ya know, and my momMinnesota was not like that. KC: How many brothers and sisters do you have? S: I have two brothers and one sister. KC: How old are they? S: Um.... my sister is 11. My um ... the older brother is 20, the younger one is 13. KC: So, your younger siblings have a different father? 131.04 S: Um ... the two youngest ones do. KC: Mom is still remarried?

S: She's remarried. Um ... she's a second wife ofa man. KC: Did you step right back in being the MOD girl coordinator here? S: No. Um ... when I came up here I decided to quit. It took me a looong time to tell them. I jus didn't associate with them no more. Urn ... everybody thought that it was jus because I lost my baby an I lost my husband or boyfriend or whatever. But, it wasn't that. It was that, too, but it was because I needed ta go on with my life an ifI had ta live a life as a MOD girl then the life that I had ta live .... the facts of my losing them would always be there. After that, I came back ... um . .I ran away again. To La Crosse, Wisconsin because um ... me an mom were not gettin along. Um .. .I wanted to go to work before goin back to college. My mom didn't feel that was right. So, she kicked me out. I ran away to Wisconsin. Um ... met this guy, I didn't wanna marry him, but my mom told me that I had to marry him. So, I got forced in marriage with him. It lasted for 11 months, I divorced. Project KC: Why did mom want you to marry him 1133.48 S: Because a the money. Cuz, he would have ta pay my mom. He paid my mom six grand an a halfta marry me. An, maybe I'm wrong, but ta me I'm still just an object to my mom. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. I'll never know, but ..... KC: He was from La Crosse? Society S: Yeah. Research KC: So you lived a married life in La Crosse for 11 months? S: Yep. KC: Did you live with his family? S: Ah ... for six months. Then we movedGang out on our own. Urn ... his parents didn't like me because um .. they said that I wasn't no thin but a gangster girl. They didn't like that. But, um ... he cared for me, but I didn't love em.Historical I didn't like him. KC: Was it kind of arranged, or you met him there and brought him back and said he was a boyfriend .... Youth 134.02 S: Well, I met him and I didn't like him, but he kept on coming and then one day my mom just told me that I had to marry him. Cuz, it was arranged already with his parents and my parents an so, it just happened.Minnesota An, I didn't wanna go back ta my thug life no more, where I was Minnesota

gonna run away an be a thug. So, I decided to give it a try. Yeah, get married, ya know. Got married, it was ok. He cheated behind my back eight times. Almost killed me cuz I confronted him, nicely. KC: He beat you? S: Yeah, he beat me. KC: In your home? S: Yeah. KC: What did you do? S: Nothing. I think I was jus so use ta gettin beat up that it was jus nothing to me. 135.52 - end of tape

Tape 69 - defective tape - no time. Project KC: Tape 2 with Sad on December 10, 1998 KC: How long did you stay married to him after he beat you? S: Four more months. Stayed there for four more months and then I left because one a my friends here came ta visit me an she said - Sad, you've had enough. She said - you're not dumb. I worked full time and I went to college full time. And, I mean my marriage made me stay away from my thug life and get away. That'ss one goodSociety thing that came out of it. But, I was so unhappy, I was so depressed. I gainedResearch like 150 pounds. I was over weight by like 200 pounds. I didn't know what ta do anymore an it jus, ya know, best friend. She's one a my bestest friends, she came an said - look at you, you look like a slob. You don't wanna do anything with your life no more ... school and work, school and work and have a cheating husband, you don't play volleyball Gangno more, you don't talk no more. What are you gonna do with your life? And, I told her - I don't know. KC: This was an MOD friend? Historical S: Umhuh..... no, she wasn't a MOD friend, she was um .. .just a friend. She was just a friend that I knew. Urn ... a friend thatYouth I grew really close with. She use ta be a big time gang member, too. But, um ... she quit. An, then I had a White female friend down there that supported me a lot and helped me move all my stuff out of my apartment into her home until I came home to St. Paul. Took my car, came up here .... KC: Now was this just a Hmong marriage or was it an American legal marriage, too? S: Just a Hmong marriage.Minnesota An then when I came back up here ... .1 was so relieved, cuz I saw all my friends again. My gang friends, my non gang friends, my little sister an my little brother.Minnesota An I just left him. An ... urn ... then I sat down an .... by myself and realized that my god I'm 21...I'm gonna be 21 in a year and I haven't accomplished anything that I wanted in life yet. End of Tape Tape 70 KC: Tape three KC: Did you move back home with mom and dad? s: Yeah, I moved back home. I moved back home for about two months. An then I moved back out on my own. An then when I moved out on my own, then I sat down and really

thought about what I wanna do. I sat and wrote a book on myself. From the day I can remember, each and every single day. I took out like my fifteen journals and read each and every single one of them. An then after realized how miserable I was in my life and how it was for me ta grow up in a world like this. Where it was corrupted. A lot a people are so blind. An that's how I started my organization. I wanna make a difference. No ones willing to get up and speak about it and do somethin. So, I gotta do it. Something of.. .. somebody of experience, not just somebody ofa degree. Ya know ..... KC: A degree is only ..... means that you can jump through hoops. That's all it means. S: I mean I wouldn't mind havin a degree, and the people that do have degrees ..... I can get much props, but.. . .in order for something like this ... .I mean our community is so corrupted. Cuz there's so many millions ofkids goin .... out there goin through the same thing, whether White, Black, Mexican, Hmong, Puerto Rican, whatever, it's goin throughProject the same thing that I'm goin through. Maybe even worse. Kids that are locked up or too late. Ya know, that's in there for life, now it's too late. Or, the kids that are in it now, it's not too late. 2.26 KC: What do you think needs to be done? How do we reach kids? How do you reach kids to get them to look at something different? S: Ask them. Are they happy or not? And, 99.99010 a the time,Society they'll say - no, they're not happy. Are you happy with your family? No. ResearchAnd then the big questions pops - are you happy with your friends? 80% of them say no. An then they'll say no, but then yes. And then, why no? And it's the problems that occur when you have these friends. And I reach these kids because I'm not their counselor and I'm not their youth advocate or their youth counselor, or their social worker orGang anything. I'm just their friend. And, I don't love these kids, or these gangsters because they're gangsters or because they're diddo, de da tau or whatever, or cuz they're my cousins, whatever.Historical It's cuz they're humans an they don't deserve it. Cuz God didn't give anybody a life ta deserve all the pain that everybody's getting. And, I don't want people toYouth go through the same things that I've been through, cuz it hurts too much. It hurts too much to get beaten all your life, and it hurts too much to lose so many things. And, it hurts so much just to get up on your feet and get knocked down again, get up on your feet, an get knocked down again. And, it hurts too much to know that no one in the world might not even care. And, not so many people do. KC: Who cares about youMinnesota now? S: I don't know. KC: DoMinnesota you care about you? S : Yeah, I just started to. KC: How have you learned to care about you? S: Because if I don't, no one will. IfI don't start, no one else will. KC: Caring about yourself, is there a place for that in Hmong culture? S: I don't know. I don't think so. I think a lot of Hmong people. Well, I think too many Hmong people care too much about their selves and forget that there's other people, too. KC: Is it about caring about image? So, caring about what the outside looks like, or is it about caring about yourself on the inside?

6.11 S: Just caring about yourself on the outside. That's it. KC: Do you care about yourself on the inside? S: Yeah. KC: Do you have any models in Hmong community that teach you how to do this? S: No. There could be, but they won't do it. KC: Are there any Hmong women that are helping young Hmong girls? 6.33 S: No. A lot a people say they do, but they don't. I can think of a few right now, that think that they're doin so much for the community, but actually they're doin nothing. KC: When you work, do you work with the boys and the girls? S: Both. Um .. .I tend to work with the girls more. Cuz, I understand it.Project And, I understand the prostitution and the runaway. And, there's so many girl prostitutes out there right now that are young Hmong girls.

7.25 KC: Tell me about that in detail. Tell me about pimping ofthe girls and about the girl prostitutes. S: Well, pimping the girls are all the girls that run away these days.Society If you're lucky then you'll meet a boyfriend and some friends that will careResearch about you and tell you not to do things. As me, I was one a the lucky ones that never got into any of that. But, I see ... .1 pimped girls that run away. Guys give them shelter, guys give em food, an these are gangster guys. And then what they want is something in return. So that has to be prostitution. To make them money and give it back to them. Gang KC: Do the gangster guys that will give a runaway food and shelter, do they expect sex for themselves? Historical S: Sometimes, yes. KC: In the Hmong gangs, areYouth the girls that are affiliated, are they expected to be sex objects or sex partners for the Hmong gangsters? S: Some, yes. A lot of them these days are. Um... as ACG's, Asian Crip Girls, they hafta get gang banged ta get in. Some of them don't even realize that the guys that gang bang em aren't even AC's. They're some other set. But, they don't know that. KC: Is it like a train atMinnesota one party or just different.. .. you have to have sex with everybody or anybody that says have sex with me? S: It'sMinnesota like a train at the beginning and then after that whenever they ask for it, you better give it to them. KC: What happens if you don't? S: Probably get beat, ya know. They'll probably get the shit beat out a them. I know girls that been in ACG that got lined up ta get in an then, whenever they didn't want to no more, they got the shit beat outa them. KC: Whenever they didn't want to be used for sex anymore? S: Yeah. And with a lot a the girls ... um .. .it' s easier for them ta get up an walk out then it is for guys. Because, girls are not much use to guys, if they're like a girl gang that's like affiliated

with guys ... guy gangs. And, it's easier for them just ta get up and walk out. But, then ... but they don't realize that. They ... they're male dependent, ya know. They feel the need for guys ta be there ta make them be somebody. When you don't .... when they don't realize that all it is is just all about sex. And not enough sex education is taught to our Hmong kids, cuz parents .... Hmong parents don't talk about sex to their kids. It's something forbidden. That's something you don't talk about. Something you're not suppose ta do until you get married. KC: How did you learn about sex? 10.41 S: From getting raped. KC: How old were you? S: 14. KC: Who raped you? Project S: My ex-boyfriend that was a White Tiger that I had ta stay at his house. KC: Did he rape you when you were staying at his house? S: Yeah. Cuz, I had no where ta go that night, an um ... it was raining. I was always scared a him, even though he was my boyfriend. Um .. .I was scared, urn ... he lived on a four floor house and he stayed down in the basement and he had a little like walls that blocked off his room. No one could have heard me yelling or nothing. Um ... he wasSociety puttin on a prono an I was in his room ... an I said why are you watching that?Research He goes .... cuz I want to ..... he goes ... babe 100k. .. .I said ooh that's gross ... ya know, I didn't even look or anything, and then he started feeling up on me an I said no. An then he ripped my pants, after beating me, then he ripped my pants, and then he raped me. But, I struggled for 30 minutes. I lost all my strength an he did what he had ta do, then the next Gangmorning he threw me a quarter an told me ta ride the bus somewhere. Anywhere, he didn't care. KC: So, he wasn't your boyfriend anymore? Historical S: Yeah, after that he wasn't no more. KC: Have you ever been rapedYouth again? S: What? KC: Were you ever raped again? S: No. I was never raped again. KC: How do you feel about the experience? S: I felt so dirty. I couldn'tMinnesota care for guys no more. I hated guys, that's why I'm so much actin like a guy. I think for one thing it gave me that power ta do whatever I want. Say whatever I Minnesotawant. Guys were intimidated by me. Guys these days are still intimidated by me. Um .. .I had the power, I had the voice to say whatever I wanted and no one could interrupt me. If anybody did, I had the right ta just get up an just smack em and they couldn't say nothing. I treated guys like dogs, ya know. 13.30 KC: But, then you went out and pimped girls? S: Yep. KC: How would you go about pimping girls? S: I don't know. Girls that didn't have a place ta stay, or nothing. I'd ask them, do you wanna

make easy money? And they'd say - yeah. An then the next minute I'd say - well, it's just very simple. It's not with anybody that you'd have ta do forever. It's jus a quick two, three minutes, they only come once and urn .. .I'll be outside the room. I'd have a gun with me outside the room, um .. .if they would do anything, I'd be right there to protect you. You'd only have ta do it for a couple minutes and .... .1 made a lot a money off that, because, I'd tell the girl that um .... they're getting $50 for having sex once, but actually I'd tell the guy, the customer that it's $175. So, then I'd get a $125 out of it. An, I was so cruel to there girls. KC: Where was this? S: St. Paul. An then one day a little girl came ta me, she was only 13, an she asked me ta pimp her an I looked at her.. .. I said, but you're so young. She goes - so? KC: How old were the girls usually? S: What? Project KC: How old were most of the girls? S: 15 and 16. And um .. .1 said no. When I first met her, I didn't like her, cuz she was very flirtatious and I was thinking in my mind - god, she's only 13. An then finally I got drunk an I jus broke down and started crying. An then that time urn ... my best friend right now, she said, Sad, why are you doing this to these girls? She said, how would you'dfelt if that was done to you when you were on run an some older girl offeredSociety that to you andyou didn't have no choice but ta do it? An, I broke down an startedResearch crying and said I didn't wanna do it no more. An I took all those girls home. KC: Where were they? S: They were runaways from here. They were living at this one pimps house. KC: They were living at a pimps house? GangSo, a male pimp? S: Yeah, they were at a male pimps house. And then one day I just kidnaped them an took them home. I took them all home. Historical KC: So, there was a male pimp? You worked for a male pimp? S: Nope. He worked his ownYouth business, I worked my own business. We just shared girls. That's it. KC: How old were you? 17.23 S: 17. KC: Was this before youMinnesota went to California? S: After. KC: After.Minnesota Was it with men from all cultures, or mostly Hmong men? S: Hmong men. Business men. Big time millionaire businessmen. Um ... old men. KC: But mostly Hmong men. S: Yeah, just Hmong men. KC: So you know all the married men on town that are prominent that like to have girls? S: Uh huh. I know that, I know them. That's why I have a lot of power in this, because ..... now, havin me turned around, being more of a positive in the community. I know who's all the bad, ya know, seeds an everything. An, they won't be able ta do that no more, cuz I'm not on their side no more. An they wouldn't dare, cuz their wives will know, an I will tell the

police. And, now there .... there stuck. Sometimes I'm glad that I did all the bad stuff that I did, because I saw the other side ofthe world, and now I know the other side of the people. And, now that I'm back in the community, I know where these bad seeds are. I know their every move, I know everything about them. And they don't nothin about me. KC: Did the girls ever not want to be with someone? S: Yeah. KC: What would you do? S: I wouldn't make them. I'd be ok, that's fine. KC: Where would you pimp them? S: At the guys business place. Um ... the guy would rent a hotel or a motel. At their homes, parks, anywhere. KC: The guy would just call you and you'd bring the girls anyplace theyProject wanted? S: Urn huh. KC: How many girls would you run at a time? S: Five. KC: And, the male pimp had five girls, too? S: Urn huh. KC: How much could the girls make? Society S: A night? What we made or what they made? Research KC: Both. S: 800,900 a night. KC: They could make or you could make? S: I could make at least 600 a night. Gang KC: So they'd make maybe a couple hundred? S: Yep. Two hundred a night. Three hundred.Historical KC: Did these girls, when they ran away from home, did they think they were just running away from home ...... did theyYouth intend to get involved in prostitution? S: Some did. I know two of the girls that purposely did it, just ta get money ta go down to California. KC: So they knew that if you needed money that you could hook up with Sad and she had connections and could get you money through prostitution? S: Yep. It was like a business,Minnesota an underground business. Urn ... but that I would never do again, cuz I don't think it's right KC: WhatMinnesota was it about this 13 year old that made a difference for you? S: She was so innocent. She didn't know any better, but ta go an do that. She didn't have no friends. She was so stupid, so young. I was so upset with her, after I took all the other girls home that I even threatened em that if they ever come out into prostitution again, or if I would ever catch their ass running away again I would beat the shit out ofthem. Just ta make them scared so they'd stay home. Ya know, cuz, I took them away from their pimp, because their pimp treated them real bad. KC: Is he still pimping? S: Is he still? No.

KC: How come he quit? S: Cuz he got locked up. KC: Is he still locked up? Did he get locked up for pimping? S: Yep. It was on the news. He got locked up for pimping. KC: What about the sex in's, Sad. Have you seen that where girls have to be sexed in? S: No. I never watched anything. KC: Did MOD's sex girls in? S: No. KC: To be an MOD girl you had to be beaten? S: Yep. KC: By the other girls? S: Girls and guys. Project KC: So you were beaten by the girls and guys? S: Yep. KC: What about the Crip Girls? S: By the girls. It was easy though, cuz that was jus at the very beginning of gang life that was introduced to Minnesota girls, so. KC: What about.. .. are the guys doing more sex in's in the HmongSociety gangs now? S: Yes. Much more. Too much more. Research KC: What's promoting that? S: I don't know. I really don't know why it changed. But, it's changed and it needs ta be stopped. It's ...... KC: Do the girls realize what they're gettingGang into? Or, do they just think that this is a social thing? S: I don't think they even know what the hell they're getting themselves into. I think it's jus they think it's for fun and games and for fame.Historical It's for fame, I believe. KC: Why is fame important? S: It makes you somebody.Youth It makes you well known, whether it's in a good way or the bad way. KC: Because you're not well known in the family? S: Because, you're not well known in the family, you're not respected in the family. You're nobody to your cousins, nephews, nieces. KC: Is anybody well knownMinnesota in the Hmong community? S: Some. KC: OtherMinnesota than General Pow? S: Yeah, some. Um .... older people, because a their kids, yeah. For little reasons. KC: Where does racism, you know, the racism of the larger community affect this? S: A lot of the kids rebel.. .. a lot ofHmong kids are racist, themselves against White people they don't.. . .if.. they don't understand if...if the kids, ifthe White kids and the White people didn't bring us to this country and make us fight the war, we wouldn't be here. Which, a lot ofthese kids don't understand the whole deal into it. So they blame the White world for it. So, they know this is a White man's land, what we do to corrupt it is by being a gang member, cuz gangs make the world go round though. Cuz, if there wasn't no gangs and there wasn't no

violence, there wasn't no drug usage there wouldn't be no cops, there wouldn't be no politics or nothing of that sort. An a lot a gang kids thrive off that. It makes them excited because they make the world go round. Ya know, an just ta irk White people, ya know. KC: What percentage ofHmong girls are involved in gangs in some capacity? S: Involved as in affiliated, just knowing gang members? Or, gang banging with gang members? KC: Gang banging on some level? 26.36 S: 80%. KC: 80% of the girls are hanging out sometimes and doing some things? S: Yep. Like carrying guns for them ... um ... buying weed for them. Making logos for them. KC: I've had a lot of the guys tell me that the way they get their money is their girlfriends work, and girls give money to boys. Project S: Yep. A lot a girls are duh in the brain. A lot a my friends are duh in the brain. I mean their boyfriend doesn't work. Gang bangs all day, all night long. An, the only sort a money he's gonna get for his drugs, his alcohol, his food, is if his girlfriend works. And, if you don't work he's gonna beat the shit outa you. If you don't, he's gonna leave you. KC: So, you have a girlfriend and she's expected to lay on her back and have sex for you, she's expected to work and give you her money, and if you don'tSociety she gets beaten? S: Yep. She gets beaten or else the guy goes aroundResearch and says - oh, this girl ain't nothing ta me but a hoe, ya know. She jus my hoe, ya know, she my money making tramp. Thas it. The word gets around and in gang world, this little community, one person says it to another the next minute ya know, gangs in California gonna know you ain't nothin but a hoe, ya know. KC: So how many girls are actively involvedGang as you were, as associates? How many or what percentage? S: 40% ofHmong girls I would say ... um ... bangHistorical something of some sort. KC: So, they're claiming something? S: Yep. Bein with guys. Youth KC: Are they running away from home where they're being identified in any way that they're getting into trouble or are still staying in school? 28.38 S: Run away from home. KC: So, 40% are runningMinnesota away from home and getting involved with the law? S: Exactly. KC: But,Minnesota another 40% are involved in some way, but are they still staying in school and kind of looking good on the outside? S: Yes. Now days ... back a long time ago, it use ta be just all 16 and above ..... 15 and above would be all the gang banging girls an everything. But, now, the ages are from 10 ta 14, right now. And, it's getting lower and lower every year. KC: What are the 15 and 16 year olds. Are they getting smart and getting away from it? S: Yep. They're getting smarter, they stay in school. Get jobs, stay occupied now. Now, we just have to worry about the little girls. The very little girls. KC: If the older ones are getting smarter, why are the little ones getting in?

S: Because they've seen what we've done. They seen our fame, our power. They wanna be like us. KC: What does it feel like to be a powerful gang woman? 30.05 S: Man, it's the most exciting feeling that someone could ever get. It's just like being the President. A lot of girls will never leave that kind oflife, a lot of girls I know haven't left that life and they're like 24. Because, why? Why leave it? KC: Where do you get the power? S: From the guys. I mean, they get scared of you, ya know. If guys are scared a you, shit the .... who's not gonna, ya know. KC: So, the tougher you are, the guys then are scared of you an then you really feel powerful. S: Yep. Project KC: And if you're not real tough, then do you feel powerful because the guys are tough and people are scared of the guys? 31.08 S: Yep. When I was stilll a rookie, I wasn't scared cuz I knew if they kicked my ass, someone was gonna kick their ass. I know someone mess with me, someone gonna mess with them. So, they gave me the power right there. And when I got rankedSociety higher, to be the big dog an everything, now... who's gonna stop me now? Who'sResearch gonna stop me when I have 400 other foot soldiers that's gonna be ahead a me ... ta stop you. Ifyou can get past through those 400 then ok, then you're gonna be my god. But, if you don't then that's your back. If you die at the first five people, then that's your fault, not my fault. KC: How many MOD are there nationally?Gang S: Too many. KC: How many are there locally? Historical S: In St. Paul, here? They just migrated here, so in St. Paul... oh about 50, unknown. KC: 50 unknown MOD's. Youth S: Yeah. KC: The name is Unknown MOD or that they're very quiet and the police don't know about them? S: The police don't know about them. MOD is smart. The police don't never catch .... MOD is like a mafia group.Minnesota KC: What are the ages of the MOD? S: TheMinnesota youngest MOD that I ever met was 8 years old. The oldest MOD that I met was 45. KC: What about here in St. Paul, what are the age ranges? S: The youngest MOD that I know here is 13, the oldest MOD is 27. KC: Are they involved in drug trades? What's the business? Mafia has business. What's the business of the MOD in St. Paul? S: I don't know. I don't know the businesses. They keep it on the down low. They don't tell me anymore. MOD is more, once your out, you're out. Can't get in again. KC: Did they do anything ... when you just kind of moved back here and disappeared, did they do anything to try to get you back in?

s: Yeah. Urn .. .intimidation. 33.3--- KC: Tell me about it. S: Like they'd say ... ya know we thought you was true to the (unclear) and we thought you were true ta us, an all this. Why did you flop an all this. An, I wouldn't answer them, ya know, but they'd be like you ain't nuttin but a mark, ya know. An, you're just a (unclear) old gangster an no wonder ya know .... an all this stuff But, those are only like the new generation ones that would say that. My generation ofMOD's are the ones older an the ones that were just right before, or right after, they all still have the utmost respect. They won't say a word. I mean, MOD is weird, because there's so many of us that.. .. an so many that we don't know whom is whom. That the only way we know is whenever they bow down, ya knOw. Cuz, if you're a well known MOD everybody will bow downProject to you. As soon as they see you, they give you this glare that you that they're a MOD an they bow down right away. They bow their heads right away. KC: Do you give people glares? S: Nowadays? Nope. KC: Do people still give you glares? s: Yeah. Society KC: And then they bow down? Research S: Yeah. KC: Because they know the rank you had before as MOD? s: Yep. I still have, I mean, in St. Paul, I don't have no disrespect from any gang member. Of any set, because I think, more or less,Gang it seems that Minnesota gangs are more civilized. They think more with their heads and a lot a kids know that I've been there, done that an now turned around. And, they don't hate meHistorical for that, they respect me for that. And they know that I've been there, that I won't never tum my back on them. And say because you're ORB or cuz you're MOD's enemy,Youth I would never help you. 35.32 KC: Well, it seems like in Minnesota if kids want to get out, they can have kind oflike a war conference and say I've gotta get out, my PO or my family's gonna disown me and I'm gonna have to disappear and there's jus kind ofan allowance of that. Am I right? S: Yep. Minnesota KC: But, that's not the case in California or nationally? S: It'sMinnesota not. It's not...um .. Minnesota.. .it's getting worse by the day, I can see that happening, it's getting worse an worse an worse. It's starting to be like California. A lot of kids wanna leave, but how can they? If they leave, who's gonna have their back? Yaknow. Ifthey leave now, if they come to ..... ifthey're eating at McDonald's or something and a rival .... their rival gang or another enemy sees them, what are they gonna do? Get killed, who's gonna take .... have their back? Nobody. KC: How much of the time were you strapped?

36 .. ----

S: In California? All the time, even when I was sleepin. KC: Where did you carry it? S: Anywhere. In my pockets, on my waistline, in my backpack, in my purse. In the car. If I'm goin to a soccer tournament, I put a gun somewhere first, before the soccer tournament opens. KC: You mean you go to the grounds and hide a gun? S: Yep. KC: Still do that? S: Nope. Sometimes, like whenever you're a gang member, it seems like your road is so narrow. There's only so many places that you can go to. So many things you can do. But, then when you're done and gone and the gangster world accepted you as being gone, then you can go anywhere and do whatever. Project KC: It's kind oflike you have to pay your dues? S: Yep. KC: What were you dues? S: I dunno. Everything an anything. KC: Cuz, it seems like you paid your dues in California? S: I don't know. California, I've done all the dirty things that ISociety coulda done already. An there was too much than what I could handle. I think someResearch things that I did was too much for even some a the guys can handle. And, I've done my dirty job already, ya know. 38.29 KC: What's the dirtiest thing you've done? S: Watched my homies rape girls. HeldGang down girls for them to rape. That's the worst thing I ever did. KC: Would you invite the girls to come over Historicaland then the homies would decide to rape them? S: Yeah. KC: Is that standard procedure?Youth S: No. KC: Did it happen a lot? Ya know, hey, get some girls we wanna have sex and you'd find some girls and say - hey, come on there's a party, why don't you come to the party. Knowing that they were gonna get raped there? S: Yeah. A lot of thatMinnesota happened. Even with girls I didn't invite over, ya know. And, MOD has the worst reputation of raping girls, ya know. And, I wouldn't understand why anybody that wasn'tMinnesota an MOD girls would come around MOD's, because that's what they were gonna do. KC: Have you ever been MOD in Minnesota? S: Have I ever been one in Minnesota? Yeah. KC: Were you initially beat in, in Minnesota? 39.49 S: No. California. I was beat in, in California then I came back to Minnesota an I was an MOD girl up here for so long I took control of If. MOD up here. Up until um .. I got beat up by two ... three different gang guys. By OMB, 612 and um .... AC. An the MOD's up here didn't do nothing. An they jus kinda left me hanging there ta die. So .....

KC: So, this was after you came back from California? S: Yep. KC: And you were running the Jr. MOD's and these other guys beat you and the larger MOD's ..... the Juniors didn't protect you and the larger didn't do anything either? S: They weren't there, they weren't there. It was right inside my home. KC: But they wouldn't retaliate. S: No. they wouldn't retaliate. They said that there was always gonna be a good day, so other people did it for me. Other gangs did it for me. TMC did it for me, so I quit bein around MOD a lot an then I started kickin it with TMC, but I never became a TMC girl or anything like that. I never banged for them or nothing. KC: How old were you when you came back from California? S: I was 17. Project KC: So you banged for two more years here in Minnesota? S: Yeah. I banged for a year and a half, then I got married. An, then um ... right at 19 is when I quit. On my 19th birthday. KC: Quit bangin on your 19th birthday? S: Yep. I made a commitment to myself I went to my grandma's grave and Ijust told her there that I'd stop. No matter the consequences, I had ta stop. There'sSociety a lot a consequences ta stopping though. Cuz, when you decide ta quit,Research you can't run back ta them no more. KC: What were the consequences you experienced? S: No more friends ta kick it with. No more smokin weed, no more drinking. No more fame, now more power. No more fun. KC: But you're hanging out with these kidsGang again, now. S: Yeah. For different purposes, I think. Now, it's different. Cuz I settled in my heart, that I had enough and enough is enough. HowHistorical much more can I hurt myself? At first it was just for the power and the control and the safety net where I knew I wasn't gonna get hurt, but in the long run, it was justYouth hurt and pain. And, it had ta stop. And now that I'm with these kids, I see so many girls the same way I was back then. Like that 13 year old that ran away. So vulnerable, so dumb .... not dumb ... .isn't the word .... so, vulnerable. Didn't have nothing. KC: What I hear you saying, and I guess I'm interpreting and I want you to tell me if I'm interpreting right, is that you were beat at 13 when you were shackled and hung up. It was like this was enoughMinnesota abuse, and so I'm going to go out into another world, but because I know what's it's like, then I'm gonna abuse others in the other world. But, because I got abusedMinnesota at home I'm gonna be even tougher at being able to abuse othen cuz that's the only way to protect myself? S: Yes. I think that says it all right there. Some people leave the home and become gang members because they don't have no brothers, no sisters. Some people leave because ..... their drug usage. There's so many reasons of becoming a gangster. There's not one ...... well there's only one, one that I know that everybody does it for. And that's only for power. And the voice. KC: What does power feel like? Where did you feel the power? S: The power of hurting somebody that can't hurt you. The power of taking something away

from somebody and they can never get it back. The power of being in control of situations. Where the other side is .... has nothing. I mean, the rush of having the power to have someone's life in your hands is a rush. So, it's like taking a fresh deep breath of strong winds comin from the sea or somethin. It's exciting, it's different. KC: Where do you get power now? 45.56 S: From me. Because, I found that the only power that somebody really has is within themselves. And, this power does not come from others, it has ta come from you, your own self Your soul, where you know that this is what you want and you're going for it. And the ability to say "no" to things. And the ability to say ''yes'' to things. And to tell people that they're wrong when they say things when they are wrong, and the ability to agree ta things, ya know, that people say. And, also, the power comes from the people you'reProject with, also. If you're with negative people, you ... .it's gonna come out negative. If you're more or less around positive, you're gonna have a positive outcome of things. 46.54 KC: What does television or music play in the gangs in the sense of power and where you get it? S: Everything. People might not believe it, but television and music influence everything. It makes the world go round, it's everything. What you see Societyon TV is what you wanna do. What you see on TV is like reality, ya know, whatResearch you hear in Two Poc raps is reality about gang life. Reality about retaliation, ya know. That's why Two Poc's music is so famous in the teenage wor Id, is because what he speaks is the truth about everything, ya know. About, bitches an hoes to money makers. How you make money off the streets, retaliation, everything. Gang KC: But, now he's calling females bitches and hoes. Are females bitches and hoes? S: Not all. Not all. A lot of girls, they don'tHistorical realize is that .... how they carry themselves is how they're gonna be treated. Some girls, ya know, are (unclear) they .. .I don't know ... .I don't know how to explain Youthit when it comes to that. Some girls think that if they give sex to somebody then they're somebody special, but all it is is jus bein a hoe and that's how guys are gonna treat them. And that's how other girls are gonna see them as, and that's how the world's gonna see them as. That's how they present themselves. You present yourselfin a mature manner, then you're gonna be treated like a mature person and if you're still young and you wanna be Minnesotateenager, you gotta act like a teenager and just go ta movies have fun, instead a having the sex. KC: But,Minnesota if the music that you listen to and the movies that you watch are about that women do sex a lot an just provide sex, then does that make you think that that's your reality? S: No. It shouldn't. KC: As a 13 year old girl, did you thing that was? S: No. I didn't. TV did. Like, I don't know. I never really paid attention to that stuff on music or TV. I paid more attention to like, the way family life was on TV. That's what influenced me. And, but I'm jus sayin like Two Poc an stufflike that. .... they speak the truth. KC: One place we've not gone is the police. Is there anything that the police can do? And, I mean, you've had contact with a certain segment with the police, the way they work with

gangs, does that make a difference? Compared to some of the larger police forces? 50.22 S: If they're gonna work with gangs, they can't just be a police. They have ta be a friend. That's with anybody though. If you wanna work with gang members and understand and stuff like that, be associated into some kind of dealing with them, you have to be their friend. You have to be very open minded to work with gang members and you have to have a lot of patience. Cuz, not a lot of it will come out right. KC: What do you mean? S: Not a lot of them will just open up right away. Not a lot of them will tell you the truth. And, you have to be very open minded, because if you're not, you're gonna.... you're minds gonna think differently of them before you listen to the whole story at first. KC: Are there any police that are effective working with gang members?Project S: Yeah. Urn ... Bill Snyder... Snyder for one thing. Damn, the kids jus love him ta hell. I mean, ifI .... .ifthey had a problem, Bill's the one that they call. KC: What does he do? Why do they love him? S: Because, he doesn't judge em as gang members. He judges them as .... .like for me, he doesn't judge me as Sad, the gang member, he judges me as Sad a girl with a lot a problems that just doesn't deal with it in the right way. And, jus cuz you done Societythings wrong, he doesn't reject you anymore, he's still there ta say, I'm behindResearch you. Ya know, you break the law.... you break the law, he gets you locked up. But, then again after he locks you up he says the reason why is because a this, you have ta deal with it in a different way. And, he doesn't just carry on a relationship, where he's jus the cop who busts you, he's a cop that wants to be your friend and help you better yourGang life. Also, there's John Beslawski. And they work. .. .! mean, he's worked specifically with the Hmong gangs for so very long and Bill's the perfect person to ask about these gangs. Cuz, evenHistorical though he's not a gang member, he is a sort of a gang member, his own self Cuz, he's been associated for so long, that he understands everything. Youth KC: Who's a police officer that doesn't do a good job and why? S: That doesn't do a good job? (Unclear) for one thing, he might kill me for saying this, or whatever, but ... .! mean not literally kill me, but he might hate me ..... but he's the (unclear) or they're there own Hmong people they should understand their Hmong kids more. But, more or less what kind ofMinnesota comment is it ta say in Hmong that - a thug kid like you that run away like this shouldjus die, cuz you're just a threat to the community, ya know. I mean when he cameMinnesota and arrested me that's what he said, to me. Now, I said to him, I said - is that a promise or is that a guarantee or is that just a threat? Cuz, ifyou're gonna threaten me, I'm gonna threaten you back. Ya know, especially the Hmong cops they should understand how these kids are and more or less be their friends and not hate them cuz they're the way they are, ya know. Or, not hate us cuz we're the way we are. More or less understand it. If you're gonna, if you don't understand the situation, how are you gonna work with it? KC: But, I know Bill has always said, he understands, he cares, he's a friend and he holds you totally responsible if you do something wrong, he's gonna lock you up. S: Exactly.

KC: Can the Hmong cops do that too? S: I don't think: so. I think: the Hmong cops are just out ta bust people. Cuz they think: it's pretty cool ta be a cop. Maybe it give em power or somethin. I don't see Hmong cops as anything but a nuisance. KC: So you don't see them being fair? S: No, I don't see them being fair at all. I mean, ya know, yes us Hmong kids have done a lot ofwrongs. And we're ... only we ourselves are to blame, cuz there more better ways of dealin with problems, but how are we to, when there's no one there to help us do it? Somebody in the larger community, that's gonna be able to help us hand by hand, cuz we're not only need a 8 hour friend, we're gonna need a 24 hour friend cuz we been living life like this for so long. It's not gonna give us like ... an hour ta change. Or two hours, or maybe three, four counseling sessions, cuz counseling ain't gonna do anything. It's what's gonnaProject motivate us to move from there and do somethin. We can't just sit there and talk about it. Cuz, sitting there an talkin about it might help, but it's not gonna change anything. Cuz, I can sit here an talk about this till hell freezes over, but if I'm jus gonna sit here and talk it's not gonna do anything. Something's gotta get me motivated to be doing it. Ya know, and every kid has their own different motivation for them ta do something. Some guys and some girls fall in love and love motivates them to quit their gang life. SomeSociety guys and some girls .... um .. get back into school and it's ... wants a career and stops.Research Some people, like me, us had enough and just wants ta stop. Ya know, an some people had enough but don't wanna stop, don't know how. They don't have no one to turn to. And then when they turn to cops like um .... (unclear) or somebody like that.. ... they're jus gonna give this look like that's what you deserve ... that 's your own fault for beinGang like that, why you comin to me now? You could came ta me earlier. Well, that's jus too bad, cuz earlier .... that was then this is now, but what are you gonna do for me? Nothing. You'reHistorical not willing to help me, so I might as well not even help myself KC: How do the majority ofYouth the White cops treat the Hmong kids? S: I think:, this is from my own personal opinion, with a lot of cops in all district they think: Hmong kids are nothin but nuisance. I've been stopped by cops several times for nothin. Why did you pull me over? Suspicion. I mean, is that a good enough reason ta pull someone over, for suspicion. And, ya know, they treat kids, Hmong kids, like they're dogs. Ya know, even before.... sayingMinnesota ... askin them why they're, ya know, ask them for their license, they're already - get down, get down. An pullin these kids by the back a their neck and slammin them againstMinnesota the hard concrete an um .. ya know, already .. .I mean they're doin it, I think some cops do that because they're scared for their own life. But, then again, like give these kids the benefit of the doubt, ya know. Cuz, that's only gonna cause more conflicts between the authorities and these kids. Cuz, one a these days there might be a gang and a police war, you never know. Ya know, cuz that's already been talked about within, ya know, gang members, ya know, how they wanna retaliate against the cops. KC: Who do they wanna retaliate against? S: Any cop. Every cop, every cop station, ya know. An, I think: if you wanna work with kids, gang members, like I said, you have to know these gangs. You have to know what you're

dealin with, cuz they're really fragile people. Ya know, they've been hurt enough, they mislead enough. For the community just to let them down is too much. And, gang issues cannot only be solved within just a gang member, it has to be the whole community itself The politicians, the great people of the world, the lesser people of the world, the parents, ya know, cuz..... people can work with me all they want and give me 24 hours of counseling a day and put me in a rehab for years. But, if! come back home to the same environment it's still gonna be the same thing, if! come back. .... cuz, I know that. Cuz, I been locked up for a year and 8 months, I been locked up for 6 months, three months, two months. KC: Where all were you locked up? S: Woodland Hills ... um... KC: How old were you when you went to Woodland Hills? S: 15. Project 59.32 KC: How long were you there? S: Three months. Then right after that, I got locked up in St. Croix Camp. I was suppose ta be there for only three months, but I ended up five months. And then I got locked up in Chamberlain at Missouri River for a year and I think six months. KC: How old were you then? Society S: Chamberlain? Ithink I was 16. Research KC: That's a lot of time .... was this kind oflike right after each other? S: Yep, like a few months apart. KC: So, in other words you'd come home and you wouldn't change and they'd pull you back in? S: I wouldn't change. There has taGang.... cuz, yes it's true that everybody has the whole responsibility for their own actions, but when you're holding responsibility for your own actions and someone's doin their actionsHistorical upon to you, you don't know how to react to that. Ya know, you get stuck like ... .like for me for instance, even though I learned how to deal with my easily anger problemYouth and my attitude problem, when I got home and someone was still givin me attitude, pushin my buttons forever ..... there wasn't nothin I could do. I mean, what was I suppose ta... just sit there and count ta ten an then count ta ten, again, an keep on counting. KC: Someone like your mom, pushing your buttons? S: Yeah. An tellin meMinnesota - ya know, Sad, you're not good at this and you're not good at that an you're not a good kid .... an all this. An, ifsomeone's tellin you you're not a good kid, why evenMinnesota try ta be a good kid when, ya know, you're already a good kid and they don't think you are anyway. And what older people, what parents say to kids is what influence kids to do things. Ya know, if my mom... .like I said, if my mom says, Sad, you're a bad kid, then why am I gonna try ta be good, when I'm already ... they think I'm already bad? 101.34 KC: Did any ofthose programs make a difference? Did any ofthem have any piece in it that made a difference for you? S: Um.... at Missouri River I had a very supportive group leader. Um... his name was Todd Doherty... um... he looked like right through me. Um ... when I went in I was perfect. I was

just a perfect lock up kid. Didn't argue, had a lot a feedback, everything. And then finally I asked for a home visit. An he said, ya know what? I'm denying your home visit. An, I said, why? He said you're a good con artist, you're .... you're good attalking shit an you don't deal with none a your problems, you think it's just a whoop de do, flyaway. You have a bad anger problem, you keep everything inside ofyou, the next thing .... what? You're gonna blow up like a balloon. An then I blew up at him .. I mean I blew up at him, I threw chairs at him, I threw a glass pop bottle an it smacked em on his face and it cracked on him. I did it to another girl cuz she was sitting cross of him, an she kept on tellin me ta calm down and I wouldn't calm down. I just sent hysterical. So, then after that my front broke down and I just started dealin with my problems. An .... then I dealt with my drug problem down there, that went away. Urn .... KC: Have you ever used since then? Well, yeah ... cuz you went to CaliforniaProject after that. S: No, that was after I came back. KC: That was after you came back from California?

S: Missouri River was after I came back. Cuz, I ran away and did robberies, that's why um . .I got locked up. KC: Okay. Ran away from home, went back, ran away went toSociety Eau Claire ..... S: Got locked up in Woodland Hills. Came back Researchout, ran away, stole a car. Got locked up at St. Croix Camp. Came out, ran away to California. Came back, got locked up in Missouri River, came back out ran away to La Crosse, got married. Came back ..... here I am now. KC: Ok. S: And that happened in six years of myGang life. KC: Sad, what did you think I would ask you, but I'm not smart enough to? S: What are we spose ta do now? There's Historicalso much that...there's so much to be dealt with, so much to be done that I think the Mayor and the President and Congressmen and City Council can do more, then ...... justYouth be on TV and say I love this, I love that, I'm gonna help this, I'm gonna help that. ... but, they don't do anything. Cuz, they forgot the lesser community, which is the gangs. Yeah, they say they wanna stop violence and everything, but. ... find people ta do it. Ya know, find people ta .... that's gonna understand. Like, by golly ... .ifI had a chance I'd made Bill Snyder the Governor, ya know, cuz I know that he'd do more than what half these governors haveMinnesota ever done, ya know. I mean at our conference on April 14th, we had the congressmen and General Vang Pow and the Mayor and the Chief ofPo lice, the Chief of SheriffMinnesota or whatever .... everybody, all these political people come, leaders of the community and everything. And, kids were so happy to come, because finally an so long these people are gonna actually come and see these kids. Ya know, they're actually gonna come out and say - by golly is this how these kids are now? Is this how life is, now? Ya know, and . .I mean, we need people that are gonna ..... they're working for us, ya know. KC: The kids were glad everybody came out, what's happened since then? S: The kids that came to CHAD are now wanting to change their lives, because these people have so much impact in the community. They are the, ya know, people of the community, so .... these kids think, I met these guys, they know me, ya know. They acknowledge my

existence. Now, that they acknowledge my existence, I'm gonna do somethin. That's all it takes, that's all it takes ..is just for someone to say you're somebody. Someone of the larger community to come and say you're somebody to us. We haven't forgot about you, you are our children, ya know. You're what's gonna make tomorrow, you're what's gonna make our next lifetime and our next lifetime after that. You're our future, ya know. You mean something to us, and ..... but then these people are only living for now and here and that's what's holding back everybody. That's what the community is .... .it's gone, it's corrupted because these people is forgetting about the future, they're just thinking about here and now. Ya know, and these kids are not gonna be thinkin about the future, because there's nothing ta know about it. Ya know, and .... we need, I myself, if I was still younger .... .if someone was .. like someone like Bruce Vento or somebody, was ta hold my hand and say Sad, you've done a lot of things wrong, but ..... or even like the Laos Family ProjectDirector or something, (unclear) or somebody would come to me, or Vi Yen, would come ta me an say • Sad, ya know, you've done a lot a things wrong, you've mad e a lot ofmistakes, but I forgive you and here's your chance to start over. And, say just that .... just say I forgive you and here's your chance to start over. Then I guarantee that all these kids would get up off their feet and start over again. But, no one's willing to do that. 108.43 Society KC: Maybe we have to learn to forgive ourselves. Like,Research you know ..... and move on. Sad, what else do you want to say? S: It's not worth it. The outcomes of being a gang member, it's not worth it. They always say love is deceiving and that's what gang life is all about, deceiving. If you don't wanna see bloodshed, you don't wanna get hurtGang .... you don't want to get hurt, you don't wanna hurt others, than don't go there. Cuz, once you walk in, it's a dark, long hallway that lasts for years an years an years. You won't see Historicala light until you yourself and that little angel inside ofyou is gonna quit. ... .it' s gonna get up and finally take over then .... there's no way out. And, even if there is, there's Youthgonna be dents inside of you that's never gonna be gone. Never will be like me. KC: What was it that the guy at Mo River did, besides saying no to your pass, to help you look at changing? 110.11 S: He showed me thatMinnesota he cared. Cuz, after they restrained me, I got back up, I tried ta hit him an all he did was just grab me and hold me and let me cry. And, I think he was one of the first peopleMinnesota that ever got into the real me. Where I been holding in all my anger for so many years, pain, frustration and took it all out on him. Him and besides my ex-boyfriend that passed away, because we were at a park one time, just like this, and um .. .1 told him that got into a fight with this one girl and I beat the shit out a her. An he said, ya know, what the hell is wrong with you? What, so what..you think you're parents beat you up and you think it's cool an that you can do that to all these other people? He goes, you wanna hurt somebody so bad, why don't you hurt me then. He gave me a big 01 stick an he said, hit me then. I said no, he said hit me, I said no. He said you better hit me now you bitch and all this other stuff and provoked me ta hit him an then he jus sat there, crossed his legs, sat there like Indian,

held his head and jus let me hit him. And, I hit him and hit him and hit him for I think ... .forever, for like 30 minutes. And he was all bruised up, he couldn't walk, he had a bloody nose an everything. But, he got right up and he still told me it's ok, ya know. People make mistakes, but you need ta stop. And it might take a lot a times. Like for me it took a lot a ..... a lot a times for people ta tell me ta stop, for me ta stop. But, the best solution I think in the world is if you're parents canjust say I love you and I forgive you, but I got your back. An, welcome back to our family or something. KC: And, unfortunately some parents can't do that. And, some parents can't have anybody's back. They don't even have their own, do they? S: No. Plus I think, the thing that's wrong with our Hmong community, cuz our parents don't even have their own back. .. that they can't say that to us. That's were we're lost. And, hopefully with what I'm starting we can build that again. Project KC: Thanks, Sad. 112.48

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