Tuesday Volume 693 27 April 2021 No. 207

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 27 April 2021 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2021 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 215 27 APRIL 2021 216

Alan Brown: The reality is that the powers of the House of Commons Scottish Government are not adequate to deal with the pandemic. There are too many constraints on borrowing powers for the Scottish Government; the reality is that Tuesday 27 April 2021 councils can borrow more easily under the prudential borrowing code. Does the Minister not agree that it is The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock time the Scottish Government had more flexible borrowing powers? PRAYERS Steve Barclay: The Smith commission set out the conditions, and they already give substantial borrowing [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] powers. That is why there is up to £450 million of Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Orders, annual capital borrowing, £700 million in the Scotland 4 June and 30 December 2020). reserve and up to £600 million for resource borrowing [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] in relation to forecast error, and of course that comes on top of the share of UK Government borrowing provided through the Barnett formula. Oral Answers to Questions Living Standards

Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and TREASURY Strathspey) (SNP): What recent assessment he has made of the effect of his policies on living standards. [914811] The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP): Levelling-Up Fund What recent assessment he has made of the effect of his policies on living standards. [914829] Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): How his Department determined the criteria for assessing bids to the levelling-up The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Rishi Sunak): The Government are committed to supporting household fund; and if he will make a statement. [914815] living standards during this difficult time for our country. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Steve Barclay): That is why we announced an unprecedented package The £4.8 billion levelling-up fund will invest in local of support to protect people’s jobs and incomes and to infrastructure that has a visible impact on communities help those most in need. across the United Kingdom. It has been jointly designed by the Treasury, the Ministry of Housing, Communities Drew Hendry [V]: It is approaching two years since and Local Government and the Department for Transport. this Government said that they would review the way in which dying people were treated through social security. Nick Smith: Having waited so long, I really hope that Meanwhile, Marie Curie and many other campaigners the levelling-up fund will boost infrastructure in south for change estimate that as many as 6,000 people have Wales. I have already written to the Chancellor about died while waiting for a decision on their claims. This the improvements that are needed for the Ebbw Vale to Government have repeatedly promised to end the six-month Cardiff line, to help young people especially to get to rule, which is currently forcing terminally ill people to work, so can the Minister assure me that this investment prove how long they have left to live before they can will finally be seen through? access fast-track support, so can the Chancellor confirm that this long overdue reform will be in the Queen’s Steve Barclay: I share the hon. Gentleman’s desire to Speech? boost infrastructure in south Wales, and he is quite right to focus on young people getting to work, given Rishi Sunak: It would be wrong for me to pre-empt how impacted they have been by the pandemic. He the Queen’sSpeech—I know that colleagues will understand knows that his area in particular has received additional that—but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that my funding for capacity, and this will enable it to bid for the right hon. Friend the Work and Pensions Secretary levelling-up fund to address the issues that he highlights. keeps all these matters under review, and of course we Fiscal Framework Agreement want to ensure that our welfare system is compassionate and effectively supports those who need our help. Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of the John Nicolson [V]: My goodness, what a disastrous 2016 fiscal framework agreement between the Government week for the UK Government. While they have been and the Scottish Government. [914810] mired in scandal and slithering through sleaze, the SNP has committed to doubling the Scottish child payment The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Steve Barclay): and carers allowance and to introducing a new winter The existing fiscal framework sets out the arrangements heating payment. Does the Chancellor accept that these for a review following the Scottish elections. This will are more noble social objectives than enriching well-placed allow a settlement in the light of a Parliament’s-worth cronies? of experience, which is consistent with the Smith commission’s expectations that there will be effective Rishi Sunak: What I believe to be a more noble operation of the fiscal framework and that it should not objective is to focus on the day-to-day concerns of the require frequent ongoing negotiation. Scottish people at this difficult time, which involves 217 Oral Answers 27 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 218 making sure that the economy recovers, that the vaccines why initiatives such as the troubled families programme are rolled out and, of course, that our children receive are making an enormous difference to those families. the education they deserve. These are the issues that I Crucially, we also know that children growing up in a know the Scottish people will care most about in the workless household are five times more likely to be in coming weeks. poverty, which is why this Government are committed to helping people find work and find well-paid work. Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con) [V]: Due to the That is something we have an excellent record of doing. increasing concentration of wealth in older generations, the value of the average inheritance received by younger Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) generations is becoming significantly greater through (Lab): David Cameron said that Greensill had time. Does my right hon. Friend recognise this trend “the mandate for the UK Government”. and the fact that it means that living standards will Greensill said that it was the increasingly be determined not by skill, entrepreneurship … and hard work but by chance, which will have a detrimental “sole provider of supply chain finance” impact on social mobility? While it is absolutely right across Government and that it had a model that brings that families can pass on wealth to their loved ones, several benefits to the UK public sector. Does the does my right hon. Friend none the less recognise the Chancellor still believe that he was right to bring in strong trend here, and if so, what steps might he consider real-terms pay cuts for public sector workers, while taking to address this? allowing David Cameron and Lex Greensill to target their pay packets and giving them the run of Whitehall? Rishi Sunak: I would say two things to my right hon. Friend. First, he will know that in the Budget we Rishi Sunak: With regard to public sector pay, I do recently froze the inheritance tax thresholds for four believe it is right, at a time of extraordinary strain on years, which will provide some alleviation on the concern our public finances—when those in the private sector that he mentioned. Secondly, I believe that the best way have seen more than 1 million jobs lost, hours cut, to drive social mobility in our society is to provide wages cut and many millions furloughed, with the impact everyone with the skills and education they need to that that has on them—to take a fair and proportionate make a better life for themselves, which is what this approach to public sector pay.That is why this Government Government are committed to delivering. have said that those on the lowest pay will see a pay rise this year, as will those in the NHS. Combined with all Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP) [V]: The the other pay progression, this means that a majority of Tories’ two-child limit, and the rape clause, which stands people in the public sector will see their pay increase part of it, are having a devastating impact on living this year, despite the difficult circumstances. Of course, standards, with the Child Poverty Action Group and the national living wage is also being increased ahead of the Church of England estimating that 350,000 families inflation, making sure that those on the lowest incomes and 1.25 million children have been affected so far. see an uplift in their take-home pay. Scrapping the two-child limit would be the easiest and most cost-effective way of reducing child poverty in the Beer Duty UK, so will the Chancellor scrap it or will he push more families into poverty? Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con): What steps his Department is taking to differentiate the rate of beer Rishi Sunak: Since 2010, over 1 million fewer people duty for on-trade and off-trade sales. [914812] are now living in poverty, thanks to the actions of this Government and the coalition, and 300,000 fewer children The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury are living in poverty. That is something to be celebrated, (Kemi Badenoch): The Treasury is considering the merits but of course there is work to do and we remain of differentiating products based on their place of retail committed to making those improvements. as part of its alcohol duty review. We are currently analysing responses provided by stakeholders to our Alison Thewliss: It is interesting that the Chancellor recent call for evidence and will provide further updates ignores the findings of the Church of England and the in due course. CPAG, which tell a very different story from that which he is willing to tell. In Scotland, the Scottish National Giles Watling [V]: I thank my hon. Friend for her party is committed to doubling the Scottish child payment, answer. It is all very well conducting calls for evidence a new benefit described as a “game changer”, to £20 a and creating reports, welcome though they may be, but week; providing free school meals to all primary children; we live in extraordinary times that require extraordinary and extending wraparound childcare. All of those are a measures taken quickly. I implore the Minister to press huge help to the families that this Tory Government her Department to act on this matter now. Hospitality choose to ignore. Does this not demonstrate the choice in general, and pubs in particular, are facing closure of two futures: more austerity and more child poverty every day. Will she act? under the Tories, or a Scotland working hard to be the best place for a child to grow up? Kemi Badenoch: I know that my hon. Friend is a fierce advocate of pubs and brewers, and he has been Rishi Sunak: I am glad that the Scottish Government proposing a duty differential for several years. I should are able to use the over £3.5 billion of Barnett consequentials stress that I am personally very interested in this proposal, that have been provided by the UK Government over but there are a number of complex issues associated the next year. Child poverty is of course an important with it, including how producers and wholesalers would issue and one that we remain committed to, which is account for and manage their stock of beer; how to 219 Oral Answers 27 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 220 ensure that any reduced rate is not exploited fraudulently; Kemi Badenoch: I reassure the hon. Gentleman that and how any differential would interact with the existing that is something that we are doing. As I mentioned in small brewers relief scheme. However, I would like to my earlier answer, we have already spent £500 million reassure him that we are looking closely at the proposals across the sector specifically to deal with that point. he has put forward. Further, we are taking a number of steps to support the decarbonisation of the UK steel industry. For example, Freeports we announced the £250 million clean steel fund to support the decarbonisation of the steel sector, including Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con): What progress his its transition to new low-carbon technologies and processes. Department has made on the establishment of freeports. [914831] Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): Jobs in the steel industry are crucial to the people of The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Rishi Sunak): At Hartlepool. In June, the first instalment of the EU the Budget, I announced the location of eight freeports research fund for coal and steel will be returned to the in eight regions of England following a highly competitive UK. Are the Government planning to ring fence that process. The Ministry of Housing, Communities and money to support the decarbonising and modernising Local Government is now leading a cross-Government of the industry, given the vital importance of protecting effort to support the winning bidders to establish their steel jobs for the future? freeport, and we expect the first freeports to open later this year. Kemi Badenoch: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I mentioned in my answer to the hon. Member for Paul Holmes [V]: My right hon. Friend authored a Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) the steps that we are report in 2017, which found that freeports could easily taking to decarbonise the UK steel industry. As I said, create up to 90,000 jobs if they were as successful as the there are global challenges in the industry and we have US foreign trade zone programme. Does he agree that, been supporting various companies. For example, last by voting against our Finance Bill and the setting up of year,we provided a £30 million loan to Celsa, safeguarding freeports earlier this month, such as the Solent freeport a key supplier to the UK construction industry and near my constituency, the Labour party has shown that securing more than 1,000 jobs, including more than 800 it has no interest in creating jobs and levelling up positions at the company’s main sites in south Wales. opportunity across the country, as this Government are The Government will continue working with businesses committed to doing? to understand the issues that they are facing, including continuing to engage business sectors that are affected Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and I by covid and our changing relationship with the EU. congratulate everyone involved in the Solent freeport bid. This Government are using freeports to boost jobs, Retraining and Upskilling investment, trade and growth. Local communities, from Merseyside to Teesside, Humber and indeed the Solent, all agree with us and it is a shame that the Labour party Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con): What does not support their aspirations. fiscal steps his Department is taking to support the (a) retraining and (b) upskilling of workers. [914816] UK Steel: Government Infrastructure Projects Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): What fiscal Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab): What steps his steps his Department is taking to support the (a) retraining Department is taking to increase the amount of UK and (b) upskilling of workers. [914817] steel used in Government infrastructure projects. [914814] Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) (Con): What fiscal steps his Department is taking to support the (a) retraining The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Kemi and (b) upskilling of workers. [914821] Badenoch): There are global challenges in the steel industry, with vast overcapacity and supply outstripping Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): What fiscal demand. However, the Government have supported the steps his Department is taking to support the (a) retraining steel sector extensively, including providing more than and (b) upskilling of workers. [914836] £500 million in recent years to help with the cost of energy. Our unprecedented package of covid support The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Rishi Sunak): Our is still available to the sector to protect jobs and plan for jobs supports retraining and upskilling by ensure that producers have the right support during this tripling the number of traineeships, expanding sector-based challenging time. work academies, incentivising apprenticeship hiring and providing funding for new, free, advanced technical Stephen Kinnock: Steel is central in terms of good courses and digital skills bootcamps under the lifetime jobs, national security and combating climate change. skills guarantee. There can be no post-pandemic economic recovery without a strong and healthy steel industry. Will the Gary Sambrook: People across Birmingham, Northfield Chancellor therefore commit today to recognising the remember only too well the impact that an economic pivotal strategic importance of the steel industry by shock can have on livelihoods and jobs in the community using the power of the Treasury to reduce the exorbitant following the collapse of MG Rover many years ago. electricity prices faced by our steelmakers—currently Does my right hon. Friend the Chancellor agree that 82% higher than in Germany—so that our steel industry things such as the lifetime skills guarantee will allow can compete on a level playing field? many adults to to train and retrain to get back into 221 Oral Answers 27 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 222 work so that they have the security of a pay packet as Rishi Sunak: The brilliant Mayor Andy Street is right we ease out of lockdown and build back better following to talk about the retraining revolution that we need and the coronavirus pandemic? that he is implementing in the west midlands. My hon. Friend makes an important point about the flexibility Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. of the system to support SMEs. I am pleased to tell him Across our nation, over 10 million adults do not have a that starting this August we are implementing a new level 3 qualification. Thanks to this Government’s lifetime scheme to allow SMEs to link with larger, levy-paying skills guarantee, they will now be able to get one, and we businesses through a new matching and levy transfer know what that will do: it will boost both their employability service that will help SMEs to access that funding and and their earnings, providing them with the opportunity to provide the level 2 or 3 apprenticeships that he rightly of a better future. identified as being important. He should also know that that scheme was based on, I think, a pilot programme Alexander Stafford: No matter where in the country that was launched in the west midlands. people are from, everyone should be able to get the experience and knowledge they need to get the job they Covid-19: Support for Businesses want. Does my right hon. Friend the Chancellor agree that the new flexi-job apprenticeships that he announced last month will boost opportunities in sectors key to Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): Rother Valley, especially in high-end manufacturing, What steps his Department is taking to support businesses creating more chances for people to experience the affected by the covid-19 outbreak. [914818] life-changing opportunity that an apprenticeship can bring? David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con): What steps his Department is taking to support Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend makes a really important businesses during the covid-19 outbreak. [914820] point. We were delighted to announce at the Budget a £7 million fund to create and expand flexi-job apprenticeship schemes, which enable people who need to work across Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): What multiple projects with different employers still to benefit steps his Department is taking to support businesses from the high-quality, long-term training that an affected by the covid-19 outbreak. [914826] apprenticeship provides. That is particularly important in the industries of high-end manufacturing that he The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): mentioned. I know that this will make a difference in his Throughout the pandemic, the Government have sought constituency. to support businesses across the UK. To do this, we have put in place a package of economic support for Dr Wallis [V]: Young people have been particularly businesses and individuals worth £352 billion since the affected by the pandemic, including in my Bridgend start of the pandemic. The Office for Budget Responsibility constituency. Can my right hon. Friend outline to the and the Bank of England have highlighted that without House what support he is putting in place to help young this intervention the UK economy would be significantly people get back into work and to boost opportunities? worse than it is today.

Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend is right to highlight the Mrs Murray [V]: What additional financial assistance importance of our focus on young people. More than can my hon. Friend give the all-important tourism half the jobs that have been lost since the start of the sector in Cornwall to ensure that it is fully ready to greet pandemic have been of those under the age of 25 and the G7 in June? their rates of furlough are much higher than others. That is why, acting very early last year, we created the kickstart programme, which is creating hundreds of John Glen: Cornwall hosting the G7 is a fantastic thousands of jobs across the country, including in my opportunity. I know that my hon. Friend has welcomed hon. Friend’s constituency. I urge all Members to talk this chance to showcase all that Cornwall has to offer. to their local businesses to get them excited and joined Many organisations in the broader tourism sector have up to the kickstart scheme, and to provide young people benefited from business grants of over £34 million with the chance of a brighter future. provided to her constituency of South East Cornwall, as well as business rates holidays and a temporary Marco Longhi: Small and medium-sized enterprises reduction in the rate of VAT. The Ministry of Housing, are often referenced as the beating heart of the UK Communities and Local Government has recently economy, employing the largest number of people. That announced the £56 million welcome back fund to support is certainly the case in my Dudley North constituency safe local trade and tourism as economies reopen. and across the west midlands, so will my right hon. Friend commit to working with colleagues in the David Simmonds [V]: I thank my hon. Friend for that Department for Education, the Department for Work answer and particularly welcome the support being offered and Pensions and with business to ensure that we improve in the form of extended business rates relief. Looking to engagement with small businesses, in particular in the the future and with reform of business rates in the design and funding of apprenticeship schemes, as they pipeline,what discussions have taken place with Department need providers to deliver much more at foundation for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy colleagues level 2, which the current funding framework is less about the potential to balance the need to secure the able to deliver? This would help to bring about the correct revenue to support vital local government services retraining revolution that our brilliant Mayor Andy and boosting high streets like mine in Ruislip, Northwood Street talks about. and Pinner through the reform of business rates? 223 Oral Answers 27 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 224

John Glen: My hon. Friend brings a great deal of Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): expertise and experience to this matter. The Government What fiscal steps he is taking to support self-employed have committed to over £16 billion in business rates people as covid-19 restrictions are lifted. [914832] support for eligible retail, hospitality and leisure property since April last year. When combined with small business The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): rates relief, this means that three quarters of a million The Government announced at Budget 2021 that the retail, hospitality and leisure properties in England will self-employment income support scheme, or SEISS, will pay no business rates for the 15 months from 1 April continue until September, with the fourth and then the last year. The Government are, however, undertaking a final fifth grant. This provides certainty to business as fundamental review of the business rates system and the economy reopens, and it means that the SEISS will have invited stakeholders to contribute their views and continue to be one of the most generous schemes for the ideas for reform. I know that my hon. Friend will also self-employed in the world, and one of the few where be very pleased to see the £16.9 million of business support is committed until September. grants that his constituents have received. Dr Huq: Is it not the case that under this Chancellor Kevin Hollinrake: Warren Buffett once said: the Tories have gone from being seen as freelancer-friendly “What we learn from history is that people don’t learn from to the party of sleaze with their selective texts and history.” promises of favours for their pals? If not, can they fix— With a 50% rise in the number of companies in significant their expression—the situation for up to 3 million people financial distress, to prevent repeating the historical who have been excluded from all the grants the Minister mistakes of post the last financial crisis, inflicting all mentioned, and from universal credit, and have been that scandalous treatment on SMEs, will my hon. Friend forced into bankruptcy, debt and worse, with 19 self- consider working with the banks to extend the very fair employed suicides in the past year? What are they doing and sensible provisions of the pay as you grow scheme about it? and bounce bank loans, and also transfer that into CBILS—coronavirus business interruption loan scheme— Jesse Norman: The hon. Lady will know that the loans? SEISS is one of the most generous schemes of its kind. The range of overall measures that the Government have taken is one of the most comprehensive of its kind John Glen: The Treasury has, as my hon. Friend will in the world. I think she also knows that I personally know, amended the CBILS rules to allow lenders to and my officials have leant in as hard as we can to extend loan terms from six to a maximum of 10 years, understand and to work with those groups to see whether and that would assist borrowers in that repayment. we could extend the schemes. It has not been possible, CBILS term extension will be offered at the discretion because of features of the design of the tax system, but of lenders, unlike pay as you grow options for bounce we have absolutely spent every effort possible to try to back loans, because they are different in terms of the make it so. guarantees that the Government have offered. Extensions are limited to those borrowers that lenders assess are in Bambos Charalambous: More than 900,000 people difficulty and will benefit from that extension, and only who were self-employed at the start of the crisis, including for the duration required. That customised approach, many in the creative industries sector, now say that they as I am sure he would understand given his vast business are having to leave the sector as the crisis comes to an experience, is appropriate given the nature and scale of end. Does the Minister agree that the lack of support that different intervention. for the self-employed, who are not covered by the existing schemes, risks damaging the recovery we so Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): desperately need? When Lex Greensill was given his No. 10 business card, he had no contract and no job description, and there Jesse Norman: A very large majority of the self-employed have now been reports that during the pandemic, the are, of course, covered by the schemes, and therefore I financial empire that he built may have lent Government- think that the hon. Gentleman’s concern is misplaced. backed money based on invoices to companies that had Of course there will always be change in employments never done business with his client, GFG, some of of different kinds, and in a dynamic economy such as which say they had no intention of doing so. Will the ours, that is to be expected. If we can get through this Minister look into the issue of how this financing was desperate crisis—the worst for 300 years—with anything structuredandensurethathard-workingBritishsteelworkers like any of the projected outcomes, that is something we do not pay the price for Greensill’s collapse? can all, self-employed or not, be profoundly grateful for.

John Glen: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op): In a question. I can assure him that this Government are recent letter to me, the Financial Secretary admitted fully committed to examining all those matters through that 710,000 freelancers who receive a portion of their the review process and complying with all requests for income from dividends have missed out on covid support information in order to get to the bottom of this matter. schemes. He recognised that most people are honest in their dealings with HMRC, but said that concerns over Covid-19: Support for Self-employed People fraud meant “it has not been possible to support everyone in the way they Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): might want”. What fiscal steps he is taking to support self-employed The Government have had a year to put in place a process people as covid-19 restrictions are lifted. [914819] with adequate safeguards. Why have they given up? 225 Oral Answers 27 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 226

Jesse Norman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for Aviation Sector: Financial Support his question. Of course, there was no admission of any kind. He asked me a question, and I responded Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab): What comprehensively and fully to the question he put. The recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of fact of the matter is that many of the people we are State for Transport on providing sector-specific financial talking about have other forms of income. They may support to the aviation sector. [914823] have pension income. They may have dividend income. They may have property income. What we have tried to The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Kemi do is use all the sources of information that we have that Badenoch): We speak to our colleagues on a regular are properly assessed and certified in order to get schemes basis about a range of matters. The Department for up and running—as fast as anywhere in the world, and Transport is in regular contact with the Treasury regarding that is an astonishing achievement. We continue to use the challenging circumstances facing the aviation sector those schemes, and we continue to work with groups to as a result of covid-19. see whether others can be included. Ruth Cadbury [V]: Furlough ends in September, which VAT Reduction: Tourism and Hospitality is of no help to the aviation sector and airport communities, which will take months to recover even partially as we Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): What wait for the world to unlock. Many aviation businesses assessment his Department has made of the effect of are on the edge financially, and they employ staff in the temporary reduction in VAT for businesses on the safety-critical roles where there is a risk of skill fade if recovery of the (a) tourism and (b) hospitality sectors they cannot be supported. They are seeking longer-term support, as are communities such as ours in Hounslow, from the covid-19 outbreak. [914822] where tens of thousands of people depend on the airport for their livelihoods. Will the Treasury address The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): the specific challenge of the aviation sector and airport The temporary reduced rate of VAT aims to support communities well before the furlough scheme ends in the cash flow and viability of around 150,000 businesses September? and to protect more than 2.4 million jobs. As was announced at the Budget, the Government extended Kemi Badenoch: The Government recognise the the temporary reduced rate of VAT to 31 March 2022, challenging circumstances facing the aviation industry, with a phased return to the standard rate. This relief which the hon. Member described. The industry can alone is estimated to be worth more than £7 billion to draw on the package of measures announced by the the tourism and hospitality sectors.Applying it permanently Chancellor, including not just the furlough scheme but would come at a very significant cost to the Exchequer, schemes to raise capital, flexibilities with tax bills and and that would have to be balanced by increased taxes employment support. The aerospace sector and aviation elsewhere or reductions in Government spending. customers are being supported with over £11 billion made available through loan guarantees, support for Steve Double: The past year has clearly illustrated exporters, the Bank of England’scovid corporate financing just how important the hospitality and tourism sectors facility and grants for research and development. In are not only to our economy, with the jobs and businesses addition, the renewed airport and ground operations they support in the supply chain, but to our overall support scheme, which the Chancellor announced in his wellbeing and the contribution they make to social Budget, will provide support for eligible businesses in mobility. As the chair of the all-party parliamentary England with their fixed costs for a further six months group for hospitality and tourism, I know just how up to the equivalent of their business rate liabilities for important this cut in VAT has been in supporting those the first half of 2021-22. businesses, but will the Treasury take another look at the merits of making this reduction permanent to further Business Investment support the sector and the growth in jobs that it can create? Mr Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con): What steps his Department is taking to encourage business investment. Jesse Norman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right [914824] that this has been an incredibly challenging period for the tourism and hospitality sectors, and it is also right The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Rishi Sunak): to recognise that many organisations within these sectors Stimulating private sector investment will be key to our have benefited from the measures that I have described, economic recovery.The recent Budget announced multiple including the extensions to the employment schemes, policies to help achieve that, including freeports, the business rates holidays and the VAT reduction, as well Help to Grow programme, the future fund breakthrough, as the very important wider restart grants and the the life sciences investment partnership, consultations additional restrictions grant. As these restrictions are on reforming R&D tax credits and, of course, our lifted and demand for goods and services in these radical new super deduction to support business investment sectors resumes, temporary reliefs are being phased out as we recover from the coronavirus. and in time will be removed. Bridging that transition to a standard rate by applying a temporary 12.5% rate will Mr Fysh [V]: I thank my right hon. Friend and the help businesses to manage the change. We should want whole Treasury team for the extensive package of support them to get back to normal trading and the support and investment incentives over the past year; I know that they offer through that to their communities and that businesses and employees in Yeovil are incredibly the economy. grateful for that. There is a very welcome focus in the 227 Oral Answers 27 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 228 defence review on local prosperity in procurement decisions. Zarah Sultana [V]: My constituency is home to Liberty Will he work with me to ensure that Leonardo and our Pressing Solutions, part of the Liberty Steel Group. The wonderful local supply chain for the helicopter industry threat of the company’s collapse risks losing good, can take full advantage of that into the future? skilled, unionised jobs in Coventry and across the country. This would be a disaster for the city and for British Rishi Sunak: I thank my hon. Friend for all the advice manufacturing, so rather than waiting for the company and support he has provided for me and the team over to go bust before taking action, risking workers’ jobs, the past year as we have sought to develop policies that terms and conditions, will the Government step in now, will help businesses, including Leonardo in his constituency, with all options on the table, including bringing the which I know he champions. He is right to highlight the business into public ownership, guaranteeing its future opportunities of better procurement, particularly for and retaining the skills we need to rebuild and to tackle our defence supply chain, and I look forward to working the climate emergency? with him and colleagues to ensure that we can support his local businesses and many others across the United Kemi Badenoch: It would not be appropriate for me Kingdom. to comment on the details of individual companies, due to commercial sensitivities.Weare monitoring developments Small Businesses: Customs Paperwork around Liberty and continue to engage closely with the company, the broader UK steel industry and trade Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab): What assessment unions. I recognise that reports around Liberty cause he has made of the effect on small businesses of the worry and uncertainty to the affected workers and their requirement to complete customs paperwork for export families. What I would say to the hon. Lady is that there to the EU. [914825] is a lot of stuff that the Government are doing that will help her constituency. For instance, we are helping to The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): create new green manufacturing jobs by providing support The Government have put in place a number of measures to drive the electrification of the UK automotive sector, to facilitate trade with the EU, including publishing supporting thousands of high-quality jobs in the west comprehensive guidance on the new arrangements.HMRC midlands. has produced step-by-step guides, videos and webinars for small businesses that may be new to customs processes. Helping Young People into Work The Government have also provided a £20 million Brexit support fund to assist small and medium-sized businesses in adjusting to new customs procedures, Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): questions of rules of origin and VAT rules when trading What fiscal steps his Department is taking to help with the EU. young people into work. [914830]

Mohammad Yasin [V]: Just over a month ago, the Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): What fiscal steps his Paymaster General told me that she would follow up on Department is taking to help young people into work. my invite to Bedfordshire chamber of commerce to hear [914833] the widespread concerns of businesses that are really struggling to overcome the new and complex operational The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Steve Barclay): challenges around her Government’s Brexit deal. I have Our plan for jobs will help young people find employment heard nothing. Will the Minister attend a meeting with opportunities, including through our youth offer and the chamber of commerce to hear about how customs the £2 billion kickstart scheme, where 180,000 kickstart paperwork is impacting viability, or would the Treasury vacancies have already been created. also prefer to ignore the problem? Gordon Henderson [V]: I appreciate that the Government Jesse Norman: The Paymaster General is always happy are helping to create those jobs, but it is important that to take inquiries from businesses, as am I, so if the hon. young people have the confidence to learn and master a Member wishes to write to me, I am perfectly happy to skill after leaving formal education, so how will my respond to his questions. right hon. Friend ensure there are funds for people to do that in my constituency, including in Sittingbourne, Steel Industry and Green Manufacturing Jobs which is the largest town in Kent that does not have its own further education facilities? Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab): What steps he is taking to (a) maintain jobs in the steel industry Steve Barclay: I agree with my hon. Friend that young and (b) create new green manufacturing jobs. [914828] people should have access to the skills and training opportunities they need to access great jobs. That is why The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Kemi my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has provided Badenoch): The Government have supported the steel £126 million for traineeships in England to enable an sector extensively, including providing over £500 million additional 40,000 places over the next academic year, in recent years to help with the costs of energy. At the and why he has incentivised apprenticeships, with up to summer economic update, the Government announced £3,000 for employers who hire new apprentices of any age. an ambitious £3.05 billion package for housing decarbonisation designed to cut carbon, save people Mark Menzies [V]: Measures such as the kickstart money and create jobs. Alongside that, our covid support scheme are a fantastic way to help young people into package is still available to the sector to protect jobs and work and reduce the risk of long-term unemployment. ensure that producers have the right support during this Many young people will have taken part-time or casual challenging time. work to support themselves through the pandemic, 229 Oral Answers 27 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 230 such as in Fylde’s hospitality and leisure sector, and The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): may not be claiming universal credit. What steps will Promotion or enablement of a tax avoidance scheme is my right hon. Friend be taking to help young people get not, in and of itself, a criminal offence, as we have the skills and industry experience to help them move regularly debated in this House. However, there have from casual employment and launch full-time careers? been numerous cases in which Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has made arrests or prosecuted people in Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend raises an important relation to fraud, and particularly in relation to disguised point, and that is why, as well as the fantastic kickstart remuneration loan-busting schemes. scheme, which he points out, the plan for jobs also expands existing programmes with proven employment Dr Lewis: My understanding is that very few promoters outcomes, including traineeships, sector-based work of these schemes have been prosecuted. Is it not rather academies and incentivised apprenticeship hiring. At shocking that so many people who were mis-sold the the spending review, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor schemes on the basis that they were perfectly legitimate announced £138 million for the lifetime skills guarantee are being pursued so relentlessly, while the promoters to fund free advanced technical courses for adults without are in some cases being allowed to continue their work A-levels or equivalent and to expand employer-led skills unhindered? bootcamps. Jesse Norman: The suggestion that promoters are Coronavirus Business Support Schemes being allowed to do just anything is quite wrong. If my right hon. Friend had looked closely at the current Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): What Finance Bill, he would have seen a range of measures in steps he is taking with the Secretary of State for Business, that Bill alone aimed at preventing the promotion of Energy and Industrial Strategy to ensure the equitable tax avoidance schemes and at the disclosure of tax distribution of coronavirus business support schemes. avoidance schemes, as well as other measures. HMRC [914834] takes such issues extremely seriously, and that is why the avoidance tax gap fell from £3.7 billion in 2005-06 to The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): £1.7 billion in 2018-19—a fall of more than 50%. The Government have provided £25 billion in cash grants for businesses, and that includes the £5 billion of Topical Questions funding allocated at the March Budget for restart grants and the discretionary additional restrictions grant fund. My right hon. Friend the Business Secretary has been [914869] Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): working closely with local authorities to ensure that If he will make a statement on his departmental these grants are delivered as swiftly as possible and responsibilities. directed towards the businesses that have been most impacted by the pandemic. The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Rishi Sunak): This Government have supported our economy through Mrs Lewell-Buck [V]: It is clear that equitable distribution coronavirus with more than £350 billion to protect jobs, of covid business schemes is not a priority. Only those families and businesses. As we approach the next phase on this Treasury Bench would have the gall to claim of our road map out of lockdown, our support continues fairness when the Chancellor and his Ministers were to ensure that we emerge from the pandemic stronger consumed with pulling out all the stops to support their and more united. friend the former Prime Minister on behalf of Greensill, while 3 million people were excluded from support Christian Matheson: The Financial Conduct Authority schemes, some so distraught that they took their own has asked John Swift QC to investigate the mis-selling lives. So to clear this up once and for all, can the of certain business loans to small businesses, as well as Minister explain what news did Treasury officials report their response to complaints about that mis-selling. The at a meeting on 24 April that made Greensill representatives review has refused to take into account any loans that “very pleased”? were settled with non-disclosure agreements between the businesses and the banks, giving a skewed view and John Glen: As I have said previously, the Government a skewed outcome. Will the Chancellor speak to the are committed to co-operating fully with all reviews on FCA and ask John Swift to ensure that all evidence is these matters. I do not accept what the hon. Lady has taken into account, so that we get a proper review of the said with respect to the schemes that the Government FCA’s dealings? have put forward over the past 14 months.Her constituency has had £16.7 million in business grants and 1,206 Rishi Sunak: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his bounce-back loans totalling £30 million. In addition, question, which is on an important matter. I welcome 12,700 of her constituents have benefited from the the conclusions of the Swift review, and I hope he will furlough scheme, and 2,000 have benefited from the appreciate that it would not be appropriate for me to self-employed income support scheme. That is a significant comment or intervene on the scope of that review, as it contribution to help her constituents. was set up to be completely independent of Government. That said, we have always been clear that the mis-selling Loan Charge: Prosecutions of interest rate hedging products is wrong, and nothing that the redress scheme does means that businesses Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): How many cannot still go to the FCA, the Financial Ombudsman promoters and operators of schemes subject to the loan Service or the courts if they wish. If he wishes to raise charge have been prosecuted for promoting and operating particular circumstances with either the FCA or the those schemes. [914837] Swift review, he can do that directly. 231 Oral Answers 27 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 232

[914872] Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con) [V]: explain whether this change of heart is driven by science Brexit is a great opportunity to turbocharge global and the needs of our economy, or by the internal Britain, but unfortunately it has not worked so far for politics of the Conservative party? fishermen in my beautiful constituency of Hastings and Rye. Had it not been for Mr Keith Chapman setting up Rishi Sunak: The hon. Lady is confusing multiple things. an export hub in Rye for local fishermen, many might She has asked me previously about circuit breakers. At not have survived. He did that at his own expense, and the time there was a debate, appropriately, about whether he has not been eligible for any of the Government a national intervention was right at a time when the funding made available to the fishing industry. What epidemiology across this country was incredibly varied. further support can be provided to assist entrepreneurs That is something that the deputy chief medical officer such as Mr Chapman when exports are hit by the himself spoke about at a press conference, and he said it double whammy of covid and Brexit? would be inappropriate at that time to take forward national interventions. That is what I was referring to. Rishi Sunak: Fishing is at the heart of many of our coastal communities, and I pay tribute to Mr Chapman To go back to the shadow Chancellor’s previous and my hon. Friend for their commitment to the sector. comment about transparency,in fact I voluntarily published I am happy that the Government are also championing extra messages to aid the transparency of this process and committed to the sector, and we have announced a for people. I am fully committed to working constructively £100 million fund to modernise our fleet and infrastructure. with the inquiry, both the Boardman review and the That is on top of £32 million that will replace EU Treasury Committee inquiry. It is worth reminding the funding this year, and £23 million that was made available shadow Chancellor of something she herself wrote last earlier to support the sector, while adjusting to new April in The Daily Mirror: export requirements. “The ‘Coronavirus Business Interruption Loan Scheme’ seems to be stuck in the banks, and not getting to small businesses in Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): A year particular, where cash flow is desperately needed.” ago, the Chancellor personally announced the coronavirus Well, the Government were also looking at how to get large business interruption loan scheme, or “our loan cash flow to small businesses,and I am sad and disappointed scheme for large companies”, as his Department put it. about what a conveniently short memory she has. Allowing Greensill Capital access to that scheme put hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money [914873] Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West and thousands of jobs at risk. The Prime Minister said Somerset) (Con) [V]: I wonder whether the Chancellor he would publish every personal exchange related to would order an investigation into the management of covid contracts. Has the Chancellor published his every contracts between Skanska and Somerset County communication relating to Government business on Council. There is evidence emerging of lazy council Greensill, including with David Cameron—yes or no? practices which are costing millions and millions of pounds in overpayment. We need to get to the bottom Rishi Sunak: We have actually responded to all the of this, and we cannot get the local county council to requests that I have been asked and, indeed, gone above do it. Will the Chancellor please not only investigate, and beyond in providing disclosure. I would say a but suggest how we as MPs can force the issue before couple of things to the hon. Lady. First of all, I am very we have a complete disaster on our hands? happy to co-operate fully and constructively with both the independent Boardman review and the Treasury Committee inquiry, and those processes have begun. Rishi Sunak: In my previous job as Minister for local Secondly, on the substance, it is important to remember government, I enjoyed many conversations with my what was going on. We were in the midst of a financial hon. Friend about local government matters. He will crisis and we were keen to explore all avenues to support know it is not for the Chancellor or indeed national small and medium-sized businesses. We have heard in Government to implement redress processes. There are the House today that there are still challenges, so it was established redress processes, which I would be happy right to examine all avenues to do that. This was just to write to him about, so he can seek redress for his one of many strands of work that the Treasury and I particular concerns. conducted, rightly and appropriately. It is important to notice that, in the end, we rejected the taking forward of [914874] Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): As any proposals on supply chain finance. we emerge from the coronavirus crisis, our high streets need more support to survive than ever before, especially Anneliese Dodds: I will take that as a no. It appears in former industrial areas in Rother Valley such as that the Chancellor is less committed than the Prime Dinnington, Maltby, Swallownest, Kiveton and others. Minister himself to transparency. That is not what I Does the Minister agree that the levelling-up fund presents would call levelling with the British public. Let us see if a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to inject much-needed he can level on another significant Government failure: investment into our beleaguered high streets in Rother the delay to imposing restrictions last autumn, which Valley and across all our nations, returning them to cost lives and our economy dear. In late October, when I their former glory? Does he agree that Rotherham asked the Chancellor if he was blocking a circuit breaker, Metropolitan Borough Council should put in a good he said, strong bid to get that money for our high streets? “I agree with the Prime Minister”—[Official Report, 20 October 2020; Vol. 682, c. 889.] The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Steve Barclay): I Now it is being suggested that he sided with others agree with my hon. Friend. The Government are committed against the Prime Minister. We have grown used to the to levelling up opportunities across the UK, including Chancellor chopping and changing his mind, but can he in Rother Valley. The £4.8 billion levelling-up fund will 233 Oral Answers 27 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 234 invest in infrastructure that improves everyday life across [914878] Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) the UK, including by regenerating town centres and (Con) [V]: A band C home in Coalville in my constituency high streets, upgrading local transport and investing in has a higher council tax charge than a band H property cultural and heritage assets. I look forward to working in Westminster. The Chancellor, in his former position with him for his local area. as a Minister in the Department for Housing, Communities and Local Government, told the House that the [914871] Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab) [V]: Leicestershire fairer funding model had a lot to commend Will the Minister guarantee the future of the steel it and would be used in consultation. Given that that industry in Hartlepool? [Interruption.] Anybody will do. was three years ago, will he look at an updated report by Leicestershire County Council entitled, “Putting The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Kemi right the years of wrong”? Badenoch): As I said in answer to earlier questions on Steve Barclay: Of course I would be happy to look at this issue, the Government are providing unprecedented the report to which my hon. Friend refers. He knows support to the steel industry. If the hon. Gentleman has that addressing future local authority resourcing is a something specific to bring to my attention about the matter for future spending reviews and the local government steel industry in Hartlepool, I am happy for him to finance settlement. However, I would remind him that write to me and I will look at the issues, but I have at the spending review 2020 we provided an estimated already answered the question and talked about the 4.6% cash increase in core spending to local authorities. measures of support that are in place. That is on top of the largest real-terms increase in their core spending at the spending review 2019, and that is in [914875] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: On addition to the about £11 billion of support that has 31 January, in answer to the debate on justice for been provided as part of the covid response. Equitable Life policyholders, this House was assured [914877] Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab) [V]: that all records were being retained and would be available That the Prime Minister said that he would rather see in the event of their being needed. Equally, we were the bodies piled high than enter another lockdown is assured that there were no plans to destroy those records. utterly despicable. My mother and parents-in-law were I was therefore shocked that the Public Accounts not bodies; they were my family, my loved ones. Grieving Committee, in its hearing last week, was informed by families like mine deserve better. We deserve a place to Treasury officials that the records had been destroyed remember those we have lost. That is why the covid and would not be available. That makes getting justice memorial wall is so important. Has the Chancellor for Equitable Life policyholders more expensive, so will estimated how much it would cost to make this wall of my right hon. Friend agree to meet me and a small hearts permanent? If not, will he now do so? delegation of the all-party parliamentary group for justice for Equitable Life policyholders, so that we can Rishi Sunak: I am very sorry for the hon. Gentleman’s get to the bottom of how we can move this long-running loss, and I know the whole House will join me in saga forward? passing on those condolences. I am not aware of the particular proposal that he mentions, but if he writes to The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): me, I will be happy to take a look at it. There has been no change in the Treasury’s position [914879] Gareth Davies (Grantham and Stamford) (Con): since I updated the House in January 2019. The relevant The Government’s commitment to the Task Force on records—the data relating to all payments made under Climate-related Financial Disclosures highlights the the scheme—are retained, and will continue to be so for importance of transparency in investment portfolios. as long as that is legal. Contrary to the press reports, Does my hon. Friend agree that more can be done to there are no plans to destroy records. There is a complaints improve transparency and prevent the exposure of process provided by the scheme, and those who are not investments by financial services companies to modern satisfied may take their case to the independent review slavery? panel which resolved such cases before closure. Further to the oral evidence session to which my hon. Friend John Glen: Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend. On referred, the permanent secretary to the Treasury will modern slavery, the landmark provision in section 54 of be writing to the PAC to provide similar reassurance the Modern Slavery Act 2015 includes institutional and clarification. Since the scheme has now closed, investors that fall within the scope of the requirement there will be no further funding on this matter. and meet the criteria requiring them to publish an annual statement. [914876] Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD) [V]: The [914880] Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) Association of Accounting Technicians has published (SNP) [V]: With the Prime Minister apparently determined its response to the consultation opened by the Treasury to keep the VIP tax-break hotline open, and as questions on its plans to reduce air passenger duty, in which it remain over the No. 10 refurbishment and concerns argues that a reduction would be wrong, as it over Government procurement are still not addressed, “contradicts and greatly weakens government policy on seeking will the Chancellor explain whether he thinks it is time to reach ‘net zero’ by 2050”. for an independent inquiry into the misuse of public Why does the Government’s tax policy not support funds? their net zero goals? Rishi Sunak: The Prime Minister has appointed Nigel Boardman to conduct an independent review of these Kemi Badenoch: I am not sure exactly what reduction various matters. With regard to covid in general, the in air passenger duty the hon. Lady is referring to. We are Prime Minister has also said that at the appropriate increasing air passenger duty in this year’s Finance Bill. time there will be all the necessary lessons to be learned. 235 Oral Answers 27 APRIL 2021 Oral Answers 236

[914885] Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab): One successfully as restrictions lift, and I will be out visiting of my constituents who is self-employed has received no businesses in Gedling on Friday to encourage them to Government support in the past year. Unlike others, apply for restart grants. Would my right hon. Friend she did not have the Chancellor’s number to raise issues join me in not only welcoming those lifelines for businesses with him, so I wrote to him on her behalf. In the response but in encouraging businesses to apply for all the help I received this month, the Department acknowledged available so that they can get back on their feet as we that there are people who have missed out on support start to get back to normal? because of what they call “practical reasons”. What urgent steps is the Chancellor taking to fix a system that Jesse Norman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I is leaving many self-employed people facing destitution? salute the people of Carlton and I rejoice in the businesses of Mapperley. I encourage businesses across the The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): constituency of Gedling to take advantage of the I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. As he will Government’sunprecedented package of support, including know, we have covered this quite extensively in this the £5 billion-worth of grant support that the Chancellor debate so far. The self-employed scheme is very wide announced at Budget, which is providing a lifeline for ranging and comprehensive. We have worked very closely businesses as they relaunch their trading safely. with groups representing those who believe they have been excluded from the schemes—I have personally met Mr Speaker: I am now suspending the House for many of them—and we have tried everything we can to three minutes to enable the necessary arrangements to incorporate them. We continue to engage with them, be made for the next business. and we take the issue very seriously.

[914883] Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con): The borough of Gedling has received more than £105,000 in welcome 12.33 pm back funding to help its high streets reopen safely and Sitting suspended. 237 27 APRIL 2021 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe 238

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe account for its poor human rights record. At the Human Rights Council in March 2021, we strongly supported 12.36 pm the renewal mandate of the United Nations special rapporteur on the situation of human rights in Iran, Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab) (Urgent and we made clear to Iran that its repeated violations of Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, human rights,including those of foreign and dual nationals, Commonwealth and Development Affairs if he will are completely unacceptable. The UK Government also make a statement on Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. joined the Canadian initiative against arbitrary detention on 15 February. We continue to work with G7 partners The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa to enhance mechanisms to uphold international law, (James Cleverly): Iran’s decision to sentence Nazanin tackle human rights abuses and stand up for our shared Zaghari-Ratcliffe on further charges is totally inhumane values. and wholly unjustified. This Government remain committed to doing all that we can to secure Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s I assure the House that the safety and the treatment return home to the United Kingdom so that she can be of dual British national detainees in Iran remains a top reunited with her daughter, Gabriella, and her husband, priority for the UK Government. Iran is the one responsible Richard. It is indefensible and unacceptable that Iran for putting Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe through this cruel has chosen to continue this wholly arbitrary court case and inhumane ordeal over the last five years, and it against Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe. The Iranian Government remains on them to release her to be reunited with her have deliberately put her through a cruel and inhumane family, and to release the others. We continue to stress ordeal. We continue to call on Iran in the strongest that these second charges are baseless. She must not be possible terms to end her suffering and allow her to returned to prison. return home. Since her arrest in April 2016, Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe Tulip Siddiq: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting this has faced terrible hardship and appalling treatment. This urgent question. The whole House will be aware that Government have relentlessly lobbied for an improvement Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, my constituent, has been in to both the conditions endured by Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe prison in Iran for five years now; from last March, she while she was in prison and those conditions still experienced has been under house arrest. The Iranian authorities by others,including Morad Tahbaz and Anoosheh Ashoori, dangled the possibility of freedom in front of her by who are still incarcerated. Although Iran does not recognise removing her ankle tag, but then, yesterday, announced dual nationality,and therefore views Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe that she had one more year in prison and another year as only an Iranian citizen, that has not stopped this of a travel ban—effectively, a two-year sentence. Government from lobbying at every opportunity for As the news unfolded yesterday, I watched with great their release, and her return home to the UK. We have interest as the Prime Minister talked about redoubling never been granted sight of the judicial process, or his efforts to get Nazanin home and how he was working consular access to our dual British nationals detained in as hard as he possibly could to secure her release. If the Iran; however, that has not stopped our ambassador in Prime Minister is watching now, I would like to ask him Tehran consistently pressing for her full and permanent what efforts he has put into trying to release Nazanin in release with senior Iranian interlocutors, most recently the first place, because from where I am standing I have today, 27 April. seen no evidence on the part of the Prime Minister Since I was last at the Dispatch Box, the Foreign so far. Secretary and Foreign, Commonwealth and Development At the heart of this tragic case is the Prime Minister’s Office officials have been in regular contact with dismal failure to release my constituent and to stand up Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe and her family. Our ambassador for her, and his devastating blunder in 2017, as Foreign in Tehran has visited Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe at her parents’ Secretary, when he exposed his complete ignorance of home in Tehran to reiterate the Government’scommitment this tragic case and put more harm in Nazanin’s way. to do all that we can to secure her return to the UK. The The Prime Minister did not even arrange for UK officials Foreign Secretary has spoken with both Mrs Zaghari- to attend Nazanin’s recent court hearing, which might Ratcliffe and her husband to underline the fact that the have ensured that she got a free and fair trial. He still UK Government, from the Prime Minister down, remain has not got his Government to pay the £400 million committed to doing everything that we can to achieve debt that we as a country owe Iran. We MPs might be that. many things, but we are not naive. We cannot deny the Since Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s arrest in 2016, we have fact that Nazanin was handed a fresh new sentence a raised the case regularly at the highest levels of Government. week after the International Military Services debt court The Prime Minister has raised it with President Rouhani, hearing was delayed. Bearing that in mind, I have a few most recently on 10 March, and the Foreign Secretary’s questions to ask the Minister. I would really appreciate personal ongoing engagement with Foreign Minister some proper answers from him. Zarif continues, with their most recent call being on Will he acknowledge that Nazanin is being held 3 April. That lobbying of Iranian interlocutors at hostage by Iran and is a victim of torture? In light of every opportunity has helped to secure the release of the recent adjournment of the IMS debt hearing scheduled Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe in March 2020 and the removal for last week, what are the Government doing to ensure of her ankle tag on 7 March this year. the debt is paid promptly? The Prime Minister said As I have said, however, what we ultimately seek to yesterday that he was working with our American friends achieve, and what we are ultimately working towards, is on this issue. Can the Minister please explain what that the release of all British dual nationals held in arbitrary involves and why the US has had more success in detention in Iran, and their ability to return home. The securing the release of dual nationals than we have? UK continues to take concrete steps to hold Iran to Tomorrow, another British-Iranian dual national, 239 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe27 APRIL 2021 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe 240

Mehran Raoof, is on trial in Iran. What link does the people but with the Iranian regime. He will understand Minister see between development in that and Nazanin’s that I am not willing to discuss sanctions designations case and upcoming talks on the Iran nuclear deal? for fear that that might be prejudicial to any future The Prime Minister and other Ministers might not success. We do, of course, recognise that Iran’s behaviour listen to me, but perhaps they will listen to someone from is unacceptable in a number of ways, not just on the their own Benches. The Chair of the Foreign Affairs detention of British dual nationals, but with regard to Select Committee said today that Nazanin is being held its international and regional actions, and we call on hostage by Iran. Please, Minister—please, everyone on Iran to step away from the dangerous and self-destructive the Government Benches—get Nazanin released, stand route that it has taken and to rejoin the international up to Iran and bring my constituent home. community and be a regional partner that behaves in accordance with international rules and norms. James Cleverly: I completely understand the passion with which the hon. Lady speaks and I can hear the Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab) [V]: After having anger and frustration in her voice. However, her anger completed a five-year sentence, for Nazanin to be given and frustration are misdirected, because Nazanin Zaghari- a further one-year sentence and a travel ban is truly Ratcliffe and the other British dual nationals held in appalling. Let us be clear: Nazanin was put on trial on a arbitrary detention are being held by Iran—it is on trumped-up charge of promoting “propaganda against them. The situation with regard to the charges that have the system” and found guilty after a sham trial. Sadly, recently been brought against other British dual nationals, we are seeing a sustained failure of British diplomacy. and indeed the sentence that has been handed down for Now the Government must demand Nazanin’s immediate Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe, is because of Iran, and it should and unconditional release in the strongest possible terms, be towards Iran that we direct our attention. so that she can return to Britain and be with her family. As the UN special rapporteur has said, it is totally With regard to Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s treatment, unacceptable that Iran is imprisoning UK nationals, our priority has always been her full release and her Nazanin and others, in an attempt to exert diplomatic ability to return home to the UK. The UK does not and leverage. Let us not forget that other British nationals are will never accept our dual nationals being used as also being unfairly imprisoned in Iran. Anoosheh Ashoori diplomatic leverage. We recognise that her treatment has been held for three and a half years and says that has been completely unacceptable. It is totally inhumane the UK Government are not doing enough to secure his and wholly unjustified, and we call upon Iran to allow release. My question to the Minister is this: clearly the Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe to return home to the UK and to Government’s approach to date has not worked, so release from detention all British dual nationals that are what are they now doing to secure the release of Nazanin being held. and the others so that they can all come home? The hon. Lady speaks about international co-operation. Of course we co-operate with our international partners James Cleverly: The Government work on behalf of on a whole range of issues with regard to Iran, including all the British dual nationals, whether they be held the United States of America and the E3, and, as I have in detention, open prison or elsewhere, and indeed of already said, we are working with Canada on the work Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe so that she can come home. that it is doing on the initiative against arbitrary detention. The UK has had some positive impact. For example, We will continue to focus our efforts on getting Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s release on furlough and the Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe home to the UK and the other removal of her ankle tag were in response to lobbying dual nationals in detention fully released. by this Government. We want to do more. We want to ensure that the people who are held in detention are Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con) [V]: released and are all able to return home to their families. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for agreeing to the Wewill continue to work hard at every level of Government request from the hon. Member for Hampstead and to ensure that that happens. Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) for an urgent question. It is absolutely essential that we keep a focus on this cruel Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: I congratulate and inhumane treatment of a mother being held captive the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip as a hostage and a pawn in order to get ransom money Siddiq) on securing this urgent question and on ensuring out of others and to extract diplomatic leverage. Let us that the family of Nazanin and the imprisonment of keep that focus where it really belongs: on the brutal, Nazanin herself are at the forefront of our minds in this tyrannical regime in Tehran that treats its own people as House. Iran has a dreadful human rights record, with hostages and pawns. As we focus on that, can we please the largest number of executions anywhere in the world focus on why the regime is doing that? It is doing it for and the oppression of its native people. Does my right personal profit, to sow violence in the region, and in hon. Friend not find it ironic then that the United order to mask its crimes. Perhaps the Minister can tell Nations Economic and Social Council elected Iran for a us what sanctions are going to be brought against the full four-year term to the Commission on the Status of Iranian Revolutionary Guard, which has so profited Women? Will he therefore take that up at the United from this violent regime, and, now that corruption is Nations to say that it is totally unacceptable for a permitted as a reason to use the Magnitsky sanctions, country that suppresses women and imprisons them how that is going to be used to ensure that the regime’s without proper process even to be considered to represent pockets are emptied and not filled. human rights across the world?

James Cleverly: My hon. Friend the Chairman of the James Cleverly: The UK Government take the rights Select Committee is absolutely right to say that the blame of women very seriously, and, indeed, one of the priorities lies with the Iranian regime—not even with the Iranian as set out for our official development assistance expenditure 241 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe27 APRIL 2021 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe 242

[James Cleverly] on a number of fronts is unacceptable. It should return to compliance with the JCPOA, and that is what we are is girls’ education. The election of countries to various calling on it to do. roles in the United Nations is ultimately a decision for that multilateral forum, but I understand the concerns Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD) [V]: that my hon. Friend has raised about Iran’s treatment of Liberal Democrats join colleagues across the House in women. We call upon Iran to do the right thing, and we their condemnation of the Iranian regime’s actions. Our will continue to lobby for the release and return of hearts have to go out to Richard, Gabriella and the British dual nationals and also on a whole range of whole family. This must feel like one step forward, two other issues where we believe that Iran’s behaviour is steps back. I sincerely hope that the Government are unacceptable. considering Magnitsky sanctions, which are surely the next step. Mr Speaker: Let us go to the SNP spokesperson, I am concerned about Nazanin’s current state. Redress Chris Law. says that Nazanin “has already suffered severe physical and psychological impacts Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP) [V]: The SNP’s from the torture and ill-treatment” condemnation of the Iranian Government for the painfully and that if she is subjected to more, it could cause outrageous detention of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is “irreparable damage” to her. What immediate attention unequivocal. Iran has never followed the rule of law in have our Government directed to the Iranian regime to Nazanin’s case and she has never received a fair trial. Its ensure that Nazanin’s medical needs are met in full? cruelty, it seems, is boundless. The precise nature of the charges and evidence in the second case remain unclear James Cleverly: We are very conscious of the health and indistinct from the first case. What confirmation of all those detained, particularly in the light of the have the UK Government sought on the detail of these covid situation. We lobby the Iranian Government hard charges and whether Nazanin will be returned to prison, and regularly to ensure that British dual nationals held or put under house arrest, as a result of this new in detention have adequate medical treatment, and we sentence? Furthermore, it is easy to forget that Nazanin’s will continue to push for the thing that we are all case is yet another matter that the Prime Minister has ultimately trying to achieve, which is their full release blundered into and made much worse with his grossly and their ability to return to the UK. incompetent mishandling while Foreign Secretary. He cannot continue to wash his hands of this case. Will Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): I thank the the Prime Minister be making an apology on record hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) to Nazanin and her family, and will the Foreign, for securing this question and for her tenacious campaigning Commonwealth and Development Office now do all for Nazanin. I also thank the Minister for mentioning that it can with the utmost urgency to undo the damage Anoosheh Ashoori and Morad Tahbaz, the other dual that the Prime Minister has done to secure Nazanin’s nationals, because they, too, have families who are release? desperately upset by the incarceration of their loved ones. James Cleverly: What we have seen in recent days is What will the consequences be for Iran of this hostage the completely arbitrary nature of the detention of diplomacy, other than words? We know that it does not Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and of other British dual fundamentally care what we think or say, and it has to nationals in Iran. This is the action of the Iranian know that there will be consequences. We have to do regime and we should not let them off the hook by our part by settling the IMS issue, which, however attempting to divert attention elsewhere. It is down to unjustified, is being linked to Nazanin’s incarceration, the Iranian regime. We will continue to work to secure and that is taking a very long time. Ultimately, what will the release of those incarcerated and the return home of the consequences be for Iran of continuing with hostage Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. We are seeking detail, because diplomacy? Otherwise, it is all bark and no bite. the detail was quite sparse initially, on what exactly this means and we will be lobbying in the first instance to James Cleverly: I thank my right hon. Friend for say that Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is not returned to prison. reinforcing the point that, as well as Nazanin Zaghari- We will continue to push for her return home to the UK Ratcliffe, there are other British dual nationals incarcerated. and for the full and permanent release of the others The UK Government work tirelessly to secure the release who are detained. of all those people. Some of them are household names and others are less well known, but we work on behalf Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): Iran has proudly of all of them. I assure him that we will continue to announced that it is now enriching uranium to 60% purity, lobby to try to secure the release of them all and that we a move that puts the country perilously near the threshold will investigate the full range of options, but, as I said, it for weapons-grade uranium. Given this latest provocative would be inappropriate for me to speculate at the Dispatch nuclear action, Tehran’s ongoing support for terror Box as to what those might be. proxies and its detention of British citizens, including Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe, does the Minister share my view Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind) [V]: I compliment that it would be dangerous to ease sanctions on Iran? my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) on her tireless work on behalf of her James Cleverly: My hon. Friend makes an important constituent and other dual nationals held in Iran. It is point about Iran’s broader destabilising actions. I will disgraceful that they are still held. It is disgraceful that not speculate as to future decisions about sanctions, for Nazanin has had another sentence imposed on her, and the reason that I gave to the Chair of the Foreign Affairs she ought to be released. In the many negotiations that Committee, but we are very conscious that Iran’sbehaviour are no doubt taking place with the Iranian Government, 243 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe27 APRIL 2021 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe 244 what other issues are raised by Iran? Is the issue of their and our dual nationals in detention. The challenge financial dealings between Britain and Iran in the past is that Iran does not recognise dual national status and raised? What other discussions does the Minister propose therefore denies us a number of the consular access to have with Iran in order to secure the early release of opportunities we would normally have. We will continue all the dual nationals? to work to secure the release of our British nationals in Iran. James Cleverly: The UK does not and will never accept dual nationals being used for political leverage, Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): I thank my hon. so I am not going to amplify whatever claims the Friend the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn Iranian regime have made about them. Our message (Tulip Siddiq) for her urgent question, and all that she and the message that I hope the right hon. Gentleman does to champion Nazanin’s case and get her home to and every other Member of the House would echo is her family. It is a shame that the Foreign Secretary is not that the Iranian regime must release our people. here today to answer the questions himself. In Newport West, the case is personal because Richard Ratcliffe’s Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) sister is a constituent of mine, so I was determined to (Con): As my right hon. Friend will know, in 2019, the speak today. The United Nations has previously ruled Foreign Secretary visited Iran, where he raised the case that Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe’simprisonment is unlawful of Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe with Foreign Minister Zarif. and ordered Iran to release her,so what are this Government Since then, what other discussions has the Foreign doing to work through the international community to Secretary had with the Minister to try to resolve this put pressure on Iran to follow their international and is any progress being made in each of these obligations? communications? James Cleverly: As I said in response to the previous James Cleverly: As I have said, we engage regularly at question, we work with and will continue to work with the most senior levels with the Iranian Government. We our international friends and partners on a range of had diplomatic engagement to secure Nazanin’s initial issues with regard to Iran and its destabilising behaviour, furlough and the removal of the ankle tag. Our ambassador both globally and in the region. visited Nazanin at her home last week. We raise the case regularly; the Prime Minister raised it in his recent call Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Is it the with President Rouhani and the Foreign Secretary did view of Her Majesty’s Government—or, indeed, of any so in his call to Foreign Minister Zarif. The British previous Government—that we do, or do not owe any ambassador to Tehran has formally protested Nazanin’s money to Iran? continued confinement. We will raise this on every occasion where we have an opportunity to speak with James Cleverly: The legal situation with the IMS debt the Iranian regime. We will continue to push this until has been settled. It is a multi-decade-long problem, and all our British dual nationals are released and allowed we are investigating ways by which this can be resolved. to return home. Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP) [V]: My Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): Last year, Nazanin’s constituent Sarah McCullough is one of many who husband Richard Ratcliffe said he feared that, if she have been in touch over the years to express their was not home for Christmas, there is concerns and solidarity with Nazanin and her family. “every chance this could run for years.” Nazanin’s continued detention is a mark of failure of this Government, this Minister and his predecessors. Was he right, Minister? What confidence can British citizens have in the ability of this UK Government to protect them abroad? James Cleverly: I sincerely hope that he is not right. We will continue to work to bring Nazanin home and James Cleverly: The situation of Nazanin Zaghari- for the release of all British dual nationals. Their Ratcliffe and the other British dual nationals held in incarceration is unacceptable, unjustified and arbitrary, detention is the fault of the Iranian regime. We must and it must stop. never lose sight of that. It has the power to release them, it should release them, and we regularly call on it to do Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con): We are strongest so and allow them to return to the United Kingdom. when we work together with our international partners. The United Kingdom gives travel advice to help to inform I understand that several western countries have citizens British travellers when they go overseas, and we have an who are dual nationals and suffering a similar dreadful extensive network to give support to British travellers. fate to Nazanin. Will my right hon. Friend update the We absolutely do everything we can to protect our British House as to what discussions he has had with our nationals when they are overseas and when they find western allies about how we can work together for the themselves in a situation such as the British dual nationals release of our citizens? in Iran have found themselves in. We work tirelessly in all respects, in all cases, to support them. James Cleverly: I thank my hon. Friend for the points she raises about the international nature of this situation. Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con): I know that the Of course, we work closely with our international partners hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) —as I have said, with the E3 and the United States of looks forward to the day she does not have to bring this America—in particular with regard to our policy towards case to the House, and we are with her on that. Nazanin Iran. We will work with any and all international friends has an extra year in prison and another year of not being and partners to bring pressure to bear for the release of able to be at home with her family. As the Minister says, 245 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe27 APRIL 2021 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe 246

[Ms Nusrat Ghani] a litany of errors, including the Prime Minister’s gaffe. Nazanin and her family will doubtless be experiencing this is both inhumane and unjustified, and it is squarely serious mental health pressures and anguish at this at the feet of the Iranian regime. Was he as surprised as point in time. Indeed, her husband, Richard Ratcliffe, I was when the United Nations, in its wisdom, elected has previously stated that the Government’s inability to Iran to the Commission on the Status of Women? That secure his wife’s return is a “failure of diplomacy”. shows a couple of things, not just about the United Would not the Minister agree that this further sentence Nations but also the fact that Iran wants to have credibility proves that he is right? on the international stage. So will the Minister impress on the United Nations that one way for Iran to hold its James Cleverly: Sadly, what this sentence proves is position is to allow Nazanin and other dual nationals that Iran is willing to do anything to attempt to apply home? diplomatic leverage, using British dual nationals as the tool. We will never accept that. We will continue to James Cleverly: My hon. Friend—my dear hon. lobby for the release of all the British dual nationals. As Friend—makes an incredibly important point. If Iran I say, the fault sits wholly, squarely with Iran. wants to be taken seriously and to speak with authority on the international stage, it must change its behaviours Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con): I join colleagues from on a whole range of issues, but most notably with across this House in our condemnation of Nazanin regard to the release of the British dual nationals held Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s further imprisonment. Could I press in incarceration and their ability to return home to the my right hon. Friend a little further on Iran’s election to United Kingdom. the Commission on the Status of Women? This is not Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister just an empty title; it confers status and suggests a for his update. We all share the same frustration and commitment to gender equality that Iran does not have. that goes without saying. To say that the situation is Could we not use our position on the UN Security distressing is a gross understatement. While I understand Council, in conjunction with allies, to consider our own the issues highlighted, it is my opinion that something participation with the commission for as long as Iran must be done to reunite this mother with her child, remains a member? husband and family. Is there nothing that can legally be done by the UK Government in conjunction with other James Cleverly: My hon. Friend makes an incredibly Governments, such as those of the USA and the EU, important point. The various functions within the United and with the UN to stop the persecution of this British Nations are separate from each other. However, she does citizen and the desecration of this British family? raise a broader point about the treatment and status of women in Iran. This is something we take incredibly James Cleverly: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely seriously. We will continue to lobby for improvements right that this whole House shares the frustration at the for the status of women, both in Iran and globally, as situation that these people find themselves in, through part of our force for good agenda. no fault of their own. We will, as I say, continue to work with international partners on a whole range of issues Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) [V]: The news with regard to Iran. We will continue to lobby Iran to that Nazanin will be forced to spend another two years change its behaviours and to come back into the in Iran, far from her family, is completely devastating. international fold. One of the most high-profile and Anousheh Ashoori, who is also being held in Tehran in perhaps one of the easiest things that it could do is to prison as a hostage, is dearly missed by his family in my release these people and allow them to return home. constituency of Lewisham East. Over the past few days, his family have been concerned that he is showing severe Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con) [V]: I welcome the signs of coronavirus. What urgent action will the Foreign Foreign Secretary’s decision to grant Nazanin Zaghari- Secretary take this week to ensure Anousheh gets the Ratcliffe diplomatic protection to help her to resolve medical furlough he desperately needs? her case. This is the first time that this tool has been used in recent memory. Will my right hon. Friend update the James Cleverly: I thank the hon. Lady for the point House on what further steps the UK is taking to help to that she has raised and the work that I know she has secure Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s release? done in support of her constituent. We are aware—we James Cleverly: I thank my hon. Friend for his point have been in contact, and we are aware—of the concerns about the granting of diplomatic status. That sends a about the medical situation in the prison, and we have signal to Iran of how seriously we take the issue of our pushed the Iranian regime to allow access of medical British dual nationals.This Government remain committed professionals for, as I say, Mr Ashoori. We will continue to doing everything we can to secure the full, permanent to push for the better treatment of our British joint release of all dual nationals, including the return home nationals while they are incarcerated, but ultimately for of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. We constantly review their release and ability to return home. what further steps we might take—as I said, that is not something I am willing to speculate about at the Dispatch Mr Speaker: I am suspending the House for a few Box—to secure the release of all our British dual nationals minutes to enable the necessary arrangements to be and allow them to return home. made for the next business. Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): Like many other Brits abroad, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe 1.11 pm has been completely let down by this Government through Sitting suspended. 247 27 APRIL 2021 Post Office Court of Appeal 248 Judgment Post Office Court of Appeal Judgment fight for justice. The Government also pay tribute to colleagues across the House who have campaigned tirelessly on their behalf. 1.14 pm However,while the Court of Appeal decision represents The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, the culmination of years of efforts by those postmasters, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): On Friday it is not the end of the road. The Post Office is already 23 April, the Court of Appeal handed down its judgment contacting other postmasters with historical criminal to quash the convictions of 39 postmasters. This is a convictions between 1999 and 2015 to notify them of landmark judgment, and I know that colleagues on the outcome of those appeals and provide information both sides of the House will join me in welcoming the in respect of how they could also appeal. The Post court’s decision to quash those convictions. I will turn Office’s chief executive officer, Nick Read, is also leading to what more needs to be done to address the wrongs of a programme of improvements to overhaul the culture, the past and to ensure that injustices such as this do not practices and operating procedures throughout every happen again, but I will begin by setting out the context part of its business. The Government continue to closely to the judgment. monitor delivery of those improvements. The changes Over the years, the Horizon accounting system recorded are critical to ensure that similar events to these can shortfalls in cash in post office branches. The Post never happen again. Office at the time thought that they were caused by postmasters, and that led to dismissals, recovery of Last week, the Post Office announced the appointment losses and, in some instances, criminal prosecutions. A of two serving postmasters, Saf Ismail and Elliot Jacobs, group of 555 of those postmasters,led by former postmaster as non-executive directors to the Post Office board. I Alan Bates, brought a group litigation claim against the wholeheartedlywelcomethoseappointments.Theirpresence Post Office in 2016. In late 2019, after a lengthy period on the Post Office board will ensure that postmasters of litigation, the Post Office reached a full and final have a strong voice at the very highest level in the settlement with claimants in that group. organisation. As part of the 2019 settlement, the Post It is clear from the findings of the presiding judge, Office also committed to launch a scheme to compensate Mr Justice Fraser, that there were real problems with postmasters who did not have criminal convictions who the Horizon IT system and failings in the way that the had suffered shortfalls because of Horizon, and who Post Office dealt with postmasters who encountered were not party to the 2019 settlement. The Post Office problems or raised complaints in relation to Horizon. established the historical shortfall scheme in response. The findings of Mr Justice Fraser led the Criminal Applications to that scheme were much higher than Cases Review Commission to refer the convictions of anticipated. Consequently,in March 2021, the Government 51 postmasters for appeal: eight to the Crown court and announced that it would provide sufficient financial 43 cases to the Court of Appeal. The Crown court support to the Post Office to ensure that the scheme quashed the convictions of six postmasters back in could proceed, based on current expectations of the December 2020, and 42 further appeals were heard in likely cost. Payments under the scheme have now begun, the Court of Appeal in late March. and the Government will continue to work with the The Court of Appeal was asked in late March to decide Post Office to see that the scheme delivers on all of its whether the convictions of those postmasters were safe objectives, and that appropriate compensation is paid based on two grounds of appeal, namely whether the to all eligible postmasters in a timely manner. prosecutions were an abuse of process either because of the postmaster being unable to receive a fair trial or While those are positive steps in the right direction, because of its being an affront to the public conscience the Government are clear that there is still more to do. for the postmaster to be tried. On Friday, the Court of Postmasters whose convictions were quashed last week Appeal announced its judgment. The Court decided to will also now be turning to the question of appropriate quash the convictions of 39 postmasters. The Court of compensation, which I know will again be of great Appeal also concluded that the failures of investigation interest to the House. The judgment last week will require and disclosure were so egregious as to make the prosecution careful consideration by all involved. The Government of any of the Horizon cases an affront to the conscience want to see all postmasters whose convictions have been of the court. In the remaining three cases, the convictions overturned fairly compensated as quickly as possible, were found to be safe. and we will work with the Post Office towards that goal. I commit to keep the House informed on this matter In response to the Court of Appeal judgment, the going forward. Post Office has apologised for serious failings in historical prosecutions. Tim Parker, the Post Office chair, has said Finally, it is essential that we determine what went that the Post Office is wrong at the Post Office during this period to make sure “extremely sorry for the impact on the lives of these postmasters a situation like this can never happen again. To ensure and their families that was caused by historical failings.” the right lessons have been learned and to establish what The Government recognise the gravity of the court’s must change, the Government launched an independent judgment in those cases and the hugely negative impact inquiry led by ex-High Court judge Sir Wyn Williams in that the convictions have had on individual postmasters September last year. The inquiry has made swift progress and their families, as has been highlighted on a number already,having heard from a number of affected postmasters of occasions in this place. The journey to get to last and a call for evidence has recently closed. The inquiry is Friday’s Court of Appeal judgment has unquestionably now planning public hearings. The Horizon dispute has been a long and difficult one for affected postmasters been long-running. For the benefit of everyone involved, and their families, and the Government pay tribute to it is important that the inquiry reaches its conclusions them for their courage and tenacity in pursuing their swiftly. I look forward to receiving Sir Wyn’s report later 249 Post Office Court of Appeal 27 APRIL 2021 Post Office Court of Appeal 250 Judgment Judgment [Paul Scully] implications for algorithmic management? The faulty software was provided by Fujitsu. What steps are the this summer. As the Prime Minister said, lessons should Government taking to hold it to account? Will ongoing and will be learned to ensure that this never happens Government contracts with Fujitsu be reviewed? again. Paula Vennells led the Post Office during this time and was honoured with a CBE. Is it right that she continues Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab) to be so honoured? The Minister referred to what he [V]: I thank the Minister for advance sight of his described as a full and final settlement for some postmasters statement. with the Post Office. Their compensation was largely This is the largest legal miscarriage of justice in our taken in lawyers’ fees. Does the Minister agree that they history: 900 false prosecutions, each one its own story should be considered for appropriate compensation? of persecution, fear, despair, careers ruined, families Finally, does the Minister agree that actions should destroyed, reputations smashed, lives lost, and innocent have consequences, and that it is therefore essential that people bankrupted and imprisoned. I want to congratulate there is a thorough criminal investigation into any potential each and every postmaster and their families who withstood wrongdoing? this onslaught of false accusations and fought back. I In recent weeks, we have heard about the special want to congratulate the Justice for Subpostmasters access and power that millionaires and billionaires have Alliance and the Communication Workers Union who with the Government, Ministers and the Prime Minister campaigned to get at the truth for over a decade. I want personally. Compare and contrast that with how the to congratulate hon. and right hon. Members across postmasters have been treated. They did not have the this House who fought for justice for their constituents. Prime Minister’s personal phone number. They did not I wish I could congratulate the Minister and the have a former Prime Minister lobbying for them. They Government, but I cannot. I am pleased to see the Minister were not millionaires looking for tax breaks. They were here making today’s statement, but the Government ordinary working people. This speaks to a broader have consistently failed to stand with the postmasters in question of whose voice the Government hear and their quest for justice: investigations delayed, claims whose justice they deliver. On behalf of the working denied and not one word of explanation or apology as people who have had their lives ruined, I urge the to why the Government let it take so long to clear these Minister to apologise, own the Government’s mistakes innocent victims. and commit to a real public inquiry so that justice, for far too long delayed, can finally be delivered. Now, to add insult to injury, the Government are failing to deliver the proper statutory public inquiry that postmasters, their families and the British public Paul Scully: The hon. Lady makes some important deserve. Let us be clear: Friday’s judgment vindicates points about the length of time and the egregious the postmasters, but to deliver justice we need a statutory nature of the situation that the former postmasters have inquiry with genuine subpoena and witness compulsion had to suffer. She talks about the time it takes to get powers, and a specific remit to consider compensation justice, and that is one of the core reasons why we set up claims. We have the greatest respect for Sir Wyn Williams, the inquiry under Sir Wyn Williams. The average length but his inquiry has no real powers and key questions of a statutory inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005 is about compensation, the criminal prosecutions of nearly three and a half years, which is a long time. We postmasters, and the responsibility of civil servants and want to get answers now for the postmasters so that we Government, are outside its remit. As such, the inquiry are able to answer questions about who knew what, who is toothless and may even lead to a whitewash. Postmasters did what and at what point, and learn lessons. have been clear that they will fail to recognise and The hon. Lady asked about the Government’s role in participate in such an inquiry. How can the Minister this. The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial stand there with the wreck of hundreds and hundreds Strategy is working well with Sir Wyn Williams, and we of lives before him, and say that this scandal does not are participating fully in the inquiry, as are the Post warrant a statutory inquiry? Office and Fujitsu. Sir Wyn Williams clearly feels that The sad truth is that this horrific miscarriage of he is getting the support, answers and participation that justice did not happen overnight. For a decade now, we he needs from the relevant organisations. If that changes, have known that there were serious problems with the clearly we can review that. Horizon system, but the Post Office denied all wrongdoing, The hon. Lady talks about Fujitsu. As well as the pursuing the victims and imposing huge lawyers’ fees inquiry, there are ongoing investigations with the police on the claimants. Even after the High Court ruling into wider aspects of the case. She talks about Paula vindicated postmasters in 2019, the Government refused Vennells. People will talk about Paula Vennells’ positions to act. Given the long litany of Government failure, and awards—there is an independent forfeiture committee there are a number of urgent questions for the Minister. to consider awards—but I am particularly pleased that, The Government are the Post Office’s only shareholder, having stepped back from her other roles, she has yet time and time again the Post Office was allowed to committed to participate fully in this inquiry. It is to be abuse its power over postmasters. That was the finding welcomed that the former chief executive of the Post of the court. Will the Minister acknowledge the Office is doing that. Government’s failure of oversight and due diligence Finally, the hon. Lady talks about the Prime Minister with regard to public money? Will he apologise to the not being on speed dial, or however she described it, for victims and their families today? the group of litigants and the other postmasters. I can The postmasters were criminalised for a culture that confirm that the Prime Minister is incredibly interested assumed technology is infallible and workers dishonest. in and exercised about the situation, as we all are. He How will the Minister change that and what are the wants to make sure we work with the sub-postmasters 251 Post Office Court of Appeal 27 APRIL 2021 Post Office Court of Appeal 252 Judgment Judgment to get them the justice they want and compensation for Horizon has united Members across the Chamber. the prosecutions, through discussion and dialogue and Will the Minister therefore agree to meet the all-party by working with them and the Post Office in the first parliamentary group on post offices, which I chair, to instance. discuss in detail and agree a way forward that will ensure justice for sub-postmasters? Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Knowing Finally,sub-postmasters deserve to be fully compensated who did what will matter, but it is clear why it happened. for having their lives devastated by Horizon and the In 1999, the Government withdrew from the contract injustices that followed, without detriment to the current and it became one of the worst private finance initiatives post office network. The Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance ever. needs to be compensated. It has not been properly To know what happened, people should pay attention compensated yet, as its legal costs swallowed up any to the investigative journalists and what Lord Arbuthnot compensation that it received at the time. Will the said. Computerworld in 2015, Computer Weekly in 2009 Minister agree to cover the legal costs of the 555 sub- and Private Eye in 2015 laid out what the problems were. postmasters involved in civil action against Post Office Second Sight, in its report, showed 12,000 communications Ltd and all costs accrued by Post Office Ltd in payment failures a year between the terminals and the centre. of compensation? There was a suggestion that some of the machines’ recordings of tax disc income, cash machines and other Paul Scully: The Department is indeed the single things were not coming through. I want to know whether shareholder in the Post Office. This has been going on Ministers and senior people in business, whether suppliers for so long that we have gone through various models of or customers, will pay attention not to glossy reviews ownership of the Post Office and various names of the saying how good things are, but to investigative journalists Department, but throughout, we have worked with Post who say how bad things might be for the innocent. Office management, who have reported back about how Until those innocent people, who were forced to plead Horizon was believed to have been working. We will guilty when they were not, are reimbursed the money continue to make sure that these questions come out of they had not taken, we cannot sit quietly here in this the independent inquiry, led by Sir Wyn Williams. House. In terms of a statutory inquiry, I have covered some Paul Scully: I thank the Father of the House for his of these areas, but it is important to make sure that we comments. There is no sense that this inquiry is glossy are driven by the outcomes for the sub-postmasters, in any sense. Sir Wyn will get the technical support that although we differ in some ways on the process to get he needs to understand exactly the points that my hon. there. I will happily discuss this further with the APPG. Friend makes, including the testimony in the court On compensation, the group litigants have had that cases. In the call for evidence, there is an opportunity to money in the final settlement. It is incredibly frustrating listen to the magazines that he referred to, including and difficult for them that they have been pushed from Computer Weekly, and other journalists who have covered both sides, with the extremely high costs of their litigation this. and the drive from the Post Office, but we will continue to work with the Post Office to make sure that postmasters Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) [V]: have adequate justice and see their compensation discussed I thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement. in full. He will hear from both sides of the House, and we are all going to be beating the same drum, but I do not Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con) apologise for repetition in this important statement. [V]: Unfortunately, in part due to the serial failure to act The Minister stated that the chair of Post Office Ltd by successive Ministers, I and the right hon. Member has apologised, but I note with regret that there is no for North Durham (Mr Jones), and others, have been direct apology from this Government. Yet again, this forced to campaign for sub-postmasters, including my Government are acting as though the Post Office has constituents Mr and Mrs Rudkin, for the past 10 years. absolutely nothing to do with them. I remind the Minister Given the huge miscarriage of justice now fully exposed, that the Government are the single shareholder in Post including the 10-year attempted cover-up by the Post Office Ltd and civil servants sit on the board, and Office, will the Minister concede that only a full public therefore the Government must apologise—in fact, the inquiry and independent compensation panel for victims Prime Minister should apologise. will now suffice finally to lance this boil? The Court of Appeal’s decision shows that there has been a devastating failure by Post Office Ltd during Paul Scully: As I said, an independent inquiry is Paula Vennells’ leadership. She should be stripped of looking into the actions of the Post Office and the any titles and any additional compensation received as responsibility of the Government within that, and a result of her inexplicable decision to continue legal everybody is participating fully. To ensure that we “lance proceedings in spite of what was known about Horizon the boil”, the Post Office has launched a historic shortfall at the time. However, I agree with the hon. Member for scheme, which has started to make payments, and those Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) that it is whose convictions were rightly quashed last Friday will much more important that a statutory, judge-led inquiry be considering compensation. We will ensure that the is launched, so that all who failed sub-postmasters are Post Office addresses that in quick order. held to account. That would be meaningful progress in the pursuit of justice, rather than a token gesture. Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab) [V]: I Sir Wyn Williams will do his best and will bring forward was present in the Court of Appeal on Friday for their many things that need to be looked at, but we need a lordships’ judgement and the formal exoneration of statutory inquiry. Will the Minister agree to that? those innocent former sub-postmasters.Millions of pounds 253 Post Office Court of Appeal 27 APRIL 2021 Post Office Court of Appeal 254 Judgment Judgment [Karl Turner] position, but it is open to the Government to look behind the contractual position and actively compensate of taxpayers’ money has been wasted on pursuing these people in full. Is that something that the Minister unnecessary and unjust prosecutions. When will the will consider? Government order Post Office Ltd to call off its lawyers, who have been instructed to search desperately for a Paul Scully: Before we look at wider compensation, I defence to the indefensible? want first to understand and make sure that we can learn the lessons and find out exactly what happened Paul Scully: The hon. Gentleman has represented his and when. This happened over a 20-year period and we constituent, Janet Skinner, as both a constituency MP need to unwind those 20 years, but we want to do that and a former solicitor, so he has a lot of experience of as quickly as possible so that we can get a timely this. We will work to ensure that the Post Office does response and justice for those people, rather than waiting not defend anything that is indefensible, and that we get for the three, four or five years that a statutory inquiry answers. That is exactly what Sir Wyn is there to do, and might take. he will produce his report by summer so that we get Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The Minister answers this year. said that this was a landmark judgment; I just wonder what it is going to take for the Government actually to Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con) [V]: The Minister is a take action. People’s lives were ruined. People went to decent, able man who I know will do his best to put prison. People took their own lives. Surely the way right these terrible wrongs. Some 555 sub-postmasters forward now is, first, for the Government to put in place showed tremendous courage and dignity in the group a compensation for all those who lost something. The litigation against the Post Office, which concluded in hon. Member for Broadland (Jerome Mayhew) just 2019. Will the Minister ask his officials whether his made a good point: it was the Government and the Post Department authorised the Post Office to use millions Office that spent £100 million of taxpayers’ money of pounds of taxpayers’money to fight the sub-postmasters basically to bankrupt people so that they had to settle. in that litigation, waging a war of attrition on them, purely to disguise the Horizon failings? Will he ask whether his What is actually needed is a judicial inquiry, because predecessor, the Minister responsible for post offices in the toothless inquiry that the Minister has set up will 2018-19, was aware of that, and if not, why not? not have any powers to force people to give evidence. Without that, we are not going to get to the truth, Paul Scully: The litigation was taken on entirely by because the guilty people need to be exposed. I know Post Office Ltd, and my hon. Friend does not need me that the Minister has said he is trying but, alas, I have to ask those questions, as they are exactly the kinds of dealt with numerous Ministers over the past 10 years questions that Sir Wyn Williams will be asking throughout and I think his name is going to be added to the board his independent inquiry,which will report back in summer of useless Ministers we have seen dealing with this issue this year. over the past few years. We need action now, Minister, not more words. Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD) [V]: I appreciate Paul Scully: The right hon. Gentleman talks about the Minister’s comments about the inquiry and unpicking something that happened over 20 years and compensation, but will he assure me that the Government describes a landmark judgment, then expects it to be will commit to seeing former sub-postmasters as individuals, dealt with within three days. That belies the complexity and to treating each case with importance for all those and depth of the situation. The decisions on Post Office who have faced more than a decade of accusations and Ltd’s litigation strategy were taken by the Post Office. had their life burdened with legal difficulties due to the The Government were not party to the litigation; they Post Office’s mismanagement? Many have lost their monitored the situation and challenged the approach homes and been refused insurance. Will they each be taken by the Post Office. treated individually and not simply as one overarching scandal? The right hon. Gentleman also talks about the fact that the non-statutory inquiry led by Sir Wyn Williams Paul Scully: The hon. Lady makes a crucial point: cannot compel people to give evidence, but at the moment each and every single one of these people, whether they everybody is participating in that inquiry.If that changes, were prosecuted or “just” suffered a shortfall, is a human obviously our view will change. being. I see the anger on social media and the tears in Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): I welcome this decision some of the interviews following the quashing of the and thank and congratulate the postmasters who led convictions; we cannot fail to realise that these people the campaign to right this wrong. What more can be have suffered so tragically and terribly over so long a done to prevent a similar miscarriage of justice from period. The Government and I will absolutely treat occurring in future? Will the Minister join me in thanking everybody as individuals. This has come at human cost. the postal workers in Redcar and Cleveland for their hard work throughout the pandemic? Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con): The group litigation of 2019 performed an enormous public service by bringing Paul Scully: My hon. Friend works tirelessly for his this miscarriage of justice to light, but although successful, constituents in Redcar and Cleveland. It is right that he those involved paid an enormous price for that public highlights the future prospects of the Post Office and its service, because most of their compensation was diverted role and social value moving forward. That is why we away into legal fees, leaving just £15,000 per victim. That need to get the answers now, so that we can not only is grossly unfair. The Minister has referred a couple of give the former sub-postmasters justice but draw a line times to the full and final settlement that has been to prove and demonstrate that lessons have been learned reached for them, and it is true that that is the contractual and that this can never happen again. 255 Post Office Court of Appeal 27 APRIL 2021 Post Office Court of Appeal 256 Judgment Judgment Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab) [V]: The wrongful we have to recognise that this is a grotesque breach of conviction of the sub-postmasters is one of the biggest the human rights and civil liberties of up to 555 litigants— miscarriages of justice in British legal history. Post our fellow citizens. It is right up there with the acts that Office bosses aggressively prosecuted workers in spite of we quite rightly complain about in some foreign countries. full knowledge that the Horizon data system was unreliable There may well be inadequate Post Office management, and that many convictions were unsafe. People’s lives but a Government permanent secretary is the accounting were ruined, with some tragically passing away before officer and the Government urgently need to do the their names were cleared. To get the answers that workers right thing. In respect of the inquiry that is already deserve and hold to account those who were responsible commissioned, will the Minister ensure that the evidence, for this injustice, will the Government heed the advice and words of Lord Arbuthnot from the other Communication Workers Union’s call for a proper public place, who has consistently championed this issue and inquiry into what happened, put it on a statutory footing has been proven right, are loudly heard? and give it the necessary powers to compel witnesses and require them to give evidence under oath? Paul Scully: I should have congratulated earlier Lord Arbuthnot on the work he has done in this area. I Paul Scully: I refer the hon. Lady to the answer I gave know Sir Wyn Williams will note my right hon. Friend’s a moment ago. words, to make sure that Lord Arbuthnot’s words, deeds and campaign are heard within the inquiry, because Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): there are many pertinent points that need to be included The Post Office wholly failed in its duties and obligations in the considerations. as a private prosecutor. It did so to such a degree that it constituted a gross abuse of that role. In consequence, Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab): Earlier this year, I the Justice Committee carried out an inquiry into the asked the Minister about the 555 sub-postmasters who role of private prosecutors within our system. Many took the Post Office to court and won the original behave responsibly and properly but, to learn lessons, litigation. Many of them, such as my constituent, will the Minister take away our report from October, sit Christopher Head, were left with nothing after court down with ministerial colleagues from the Law Officers costs. How can the Minister possibly not agree with me Department and the Ministry of Justice and look at and the current CEO of the Post Office that if proper further recommendations—for example, a binding code justice is to be served for every single victim of this of conduct for prosecutors,including disclosure obligations; scandal, they must have their claim validated under the a register of prosecutors; notification to all defendants historical shortfall scheme, to prevent two tiers of justice? who are subject to a private prosecution that they have It seems to me that it is only this Minister and this the right to a review by the independent Crown Prosecution Government who believe that that is okay. Service; and extending the role of the inspectorate of prosecutors to large-scale Crown prosecutors? Those helpful measures could prevent such a disgraceful injustice Paul Scully: I pay tribute to the hon. Lady for her work. from ever happening again. Christopher Head, one of the youngest sub-postmasters involved in this situation, has been through years of Paul Scully: I thank my hon. Friend for his work in distress, so I can understand that anger. We will continue this area. There are clearly wider lessons to be learned to work with the Post Office and with all parties to from this, as well as the direct lessons about who knew make sure that we not only get justice, but provide that what in the Post Office. It is about justice and how reassurance that we are listening and that we are addressing private prosecutions work, although there has not been the cause of all people affected by this scandal. a private prosecution in this area for a few years now. We also heard stories about people pleading guilty to Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) lesser charges to try to avoid prison. That is not justice (Lab): The Horizon scandal, as we know, has destroyed as we see it. There are clearly wider lessons to be learned the lives of many people, including that of my constituent, that I am sure the Government will look at. Janet Skinner. The behaviour of the Post Office is best summed up by what the Right Reverend James Jones Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): said in the Hillsborough inquiry about the Following on from that point, the reality is that the Post “patronising disposition of unaccountable power”, Office remains the only body in the UK to run its own prosecutions and it starts from an assumption of guilt the denials and the cover-up. To get to the truth, I hope when it comes to disputes. Here, for Horizon, it acted as the Minister will reconsider the need for a full statutory judge, jury and executioner, operated at standards way public inquiry with the powers to compel evidence and below the CPS and blocked the forensic account in witnesses. This short, quick inquiry that the Minister Second Sight’s Horizon review. When is the Post Office has referred to without these powers will surely fail. going to be stripped of these prosecution powers? When will a fair dispute resolution process be put in place? Paul Scully: I thank the right hon. Lady for her question and ask her to forgive me for ascribing Janet Skinner to Paul Scully: As I said earlier, there have been no be the constituent of the hon. Member for Kingston private prosecutions in this area for a number of years, upon Hull East (Karl Turner). None the less, I know that but clearly there are lessons that need to be learned. her voice has been heard via many Members in this House. That will be addressed in the inquiry. On the non-statutory inquiry,at this stage,Sir Wyn Williams is getting full support from each of the parties that he is Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): My investigating. If that changes, our advice will change, hon. Friend is a very good Minister and the Government too. At the moment, things are working well, and he is have, of course, inherited this problem, but, as a House, getting the co-operation that is required. 257 Post Office Court of Appeal 27 APRIL 2021 Post Office Court of Appeal 258 Judgment Judgment Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con): The sub-postmasters Paul Scully: We are working with the Post Office in suffered a grave miscarriage of justice,but the circumstances order for it to come forward with thoughts and plans that gave rise to it—defective technology twinned with a for the compensation scheme. We will make sure that we recalcitrant and inflexible employer—could easily happen are leaning into that to ensure that everybody is adequately again, particularly as technology and artificial intelligence compensated moving forward. are being rolled out in workplaces across the country. Does my hon. Friend think that there is a place in the Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con) [V]: I have forthcoming employment Bill for new provisions to constituents who are among the hundreds of victims of protect against this? this appalling scandal. One has been telling me this morning that she could not even be in London last week Paul Scully: My hon. Friend raises some interesting to hear the outcome of this judgment because she could points, and we certainly need to reflect on the wider not afford the cost of travel. What mechanism is going implications of the situation. Clearly, the independent to be in place to compensate these victims swiftly and inquiry is addressing the direct implications on those fairly? sub-postmasters and as they affect Post Office Ltd moving forward, but there are also other implications Paul Scully: My hon. Friend is right to champion that the Government need to consider. this. The Post Office, first, needs to engage with all the appellants to make sure that they are compensated Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab) [V]: fairly.It is that fair compensation that we as a Government Convicted, jailed, persecuted, taken their own lives, will be pushing for to make sure that the Post Office acts made bankrupt, reputational damage and mental and quickly. physical anguish for years, yet still no one at all at the Post Office or Fujitsu has been held to account for this Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP) [V]: For over a horrendous injustice. There are also those in Government decade now, hundreds of postmasters have lived with who became acutely aware of this scandal, yet remained the ruination of their reputations, the loss of their completely passive in their duties on the board of the businesses and homes, criminal convictions, in some Post Office. Is it the Post Office, Fujitsu, or some cases imprisonment, and untold mental misery.In contrast, Government Members that the Minister is protecting those who lied about the failures of the Horizon system, by resisting a statutory public inquiry? covered up its defects and withheld information from the courts have been rewarded with public honours, Paul Scully: No, indeed. We want to make sure that promotion and lucrative Government contracts. The we can get these answers quickly for sub-postmasters postmasters who refused to give into the institutional who have already waited up to 20 years for a sense of power of the Post Office, which used its financial might justice. As I have said, statutory inquiries can take more to silence them, deserve to be congratulated. But more than three years to get these answers. I want a report on than that, Minister,they deserve full and fair compensation my desk this summer to report back to postmasters, and an inquiry that will properly hold to account those and Sir Wyn is getting the co-operation that he needs to who the judge said were responsible for appalling get answers. “failures of investigation and disclosure”, Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): Does my hon. which had made the prosecution of these honest people Friend agree that postmasters provide the backbone of “an affront to the conscience of the court.” the Post Office and will he join me in thanking Jay Patel, The real test will be: is that what the Minister will give the Patel family and Jaspal Singh who provide vital them? services to communities across Beaconsfield, Hedgerley and Burnham? Will he continue to fight for justice and Paul Scully: This inquiry is getting the co-operation compensation for those who have been exonerated and of all those people participating and involved. If that take on board the excellent suggestion of my hon. changes, clearly, our advice and view will change, because Friend the Member for Newbury (Laura Farris) of I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is so looking at how we prevent these type of scandals from important that we make sure that nobody can hide from happening in the future? this, so that we do get those answers and that those postmasters get justice. Paul Scully: I thank my hon. Friend for her question. I know that she is a champion for community services Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con): Margery Lorraine in her area. That is what the Post Office does—not only Williams and Noel Thomas, both from my Ynys Môn is it a business, but it adds social value, as Jay Patel and constituency,were among those who had their lives turned his family continue to do. That is why we need to get upside down by this appalling miscarriage of justice. answers. That is why we need to get justice. It is to give Does the Minister agree that postmasters such as Ian existing and future postmasters the confidence that they Ashworth, who runs the post office in the Chocolate can work in a great organisation that is offering that Box, next to my office in Holyhead, provide vital services social value and supporting their communities. to our communities across the UK? Does he further commit that the UK Government will act to ensure that Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP) [V]: Hundreds this can never happen again? of postmasters running their local community businesses have had their lives and livelihoods turned upside down, Paul Scully: My hon. Friend is right. We have the likes and their reputations and their finances trashed. Will of Ian Ashworth across the country offering social value. the Minister assure me, further to the question asked by People will be interested and want to act as postmasters my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw only if they are confident that they have the backing of (Marion Fellows), that full legal costs will be included the Post Office that something like this—as happened in the compensation package to postmasters? to Noel Thomas and Margery Lorraine Williams—can 259 Post Office Court of Appeal 27 APRIL 2021 Post Office Court of Appeal 260 Judgment Judgment never happen again. We need to get those answers and, holding the Post Office fully to account—not just to through this inquiry, we need to ensure that this can give justice to those affected by the Horizon debacle, never happen again, as my hon. Friend said. but to fully support postmasters and win back trust?

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): Once Paul Scully: Winslow, Princes Risborough and again, the likes of me are here questioning a Government Buckingham are just like many villages and towns across Minister and demanding justice for those devastated by the country, where banks are starting to reduce their the Post Office Horizon scandal, but the Government branch numbers. I have talked about social value; it is have dithered and delayed for years over providing a full important that the Post Office fills that gap, and provides statutory inquiry, thereby prolonging the agony of the access to cash and services for the most vulnerable. That victims, who are still waiting for an inquiry wherein the is why we need to get the answers to ensure that sub- judge can compel evidence. Rather than the toothless postmasters coming forward have the confidence and inquiry set up by the Government, why is the Minister really want to come and work for a forward-looking not committing to providing the victims with the proper organisation, not one that has had such an egregious statutory inquiry that they rightly deserve? recent past.

Paul Scully: Because the evidence is coming forward. Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): I pay tribute to my There is no point in compelling something that is already constituent, Mr John Bowman, who lost his home as coming forward. Having said that, if that changes, our well as his business, like the constituents of so many advice and our thoughts will change, but at the moment, other Members across the House. One of the things everybody is participating in the inquiry.Sir Wyn Williams that hurt him most, which he has talked about to me is happy and content that he is getting the information extensively, is the way in which the Post Office behaved; and co-operation that he requires to get answers. it simply looked to the criminal proceedings of those sub-postmasters, who, in the end, we now know had John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con) [V]: Will the Minister done nothing wrong. Will the Minister confirm that the understand that there has to be compensation, and current inquiry is expressly forbidden from looking at urgently, and this compensation has to cover not just the Post Office’s prosecutorial function? Given this, will the Horizon losses but the legal costs and the loss of the Minister reconsider setting up a fully judicial inquiry business and income that people suffered from the into the scandal so that postmasters such as Mr Bowman damage to their reputation? get the justice they actually deserve? Many MPs, including myself, told past Ministers that this was an accounting scandal—it was not a sudden Paul Scully: What I can confirm is that the inquiry outbreak of mass criminal activity by good public will look into the Post Office’s approach and the “who servants. They deserve better, and this Government did what”in its approach to the sub-postmasters, because must now apologise by making sure they get proper clearly that heavy-handed approach early doors did compensation. lead to prosecutions. As I have said, there are wider considerations for the legal process, including private Paul Scully: Indeed, it is important that the Post Office prosecutions, and we will need to learn from this. engages with all the appellants who have had their convictions quashed. As we are getting those answers, Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I have we will work to ensure that we can get fair compensation. used this quote already in the Chamber today; Warren Buffett often says: Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab) [V]: This gross “What we learn from history is that people don’t learn from miscarriage of justice has taken a terrible toll not only history.” on the wrongly convicted sub-postmasters who have When we finally discovered the 10-year cover-up of a endured so much suffering and struggled for so long to fraud at Lloyds, we inexplicably let Lloyds run its own see justice, but on the local communities that rely on compensation scheme, which three years later was post offices as precious community resources. In the determined to be not fair or reasonable, and we had to wake of this scandal, can the Minister tell us what steps do it all again. Will my hon. Friend at least put in place the Government are taking to ensure that every community independent oversight of this compensation scheme to has easy access to a post office? ensure that all those who have suffered get fair, reasonable and consistent compensation, whether they have been Paul Scully: There are universal access provisions for through litigation or not? the Post Office. Although, yes, we are giving them a network waiver because of the effect of covid at the Paul Scully: My hon. Friend has been consistent in moment, we will make sure that we are up to 11,500 his campaigning in this area, and what I can say is that post offices across the country, with access criteria to we will be ensuring that the Post Office provides fair, ensure that the most vulnerable are closest to a post consistent and speedy compensation within the structures, office and have those services that add such social value as will be outlined over the next few weeks and months. to their communities. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): Postmasters are thank the Minister for his statement. We will have a coming under increasing pressure and workload as many three-minute suspension to prepare for the next business. banks turn their backs on the high streets, not least in the towns of Winslow, Princes Risborough and Buckingham in my constituency. Given that increased pressure and 2.5 pm increased workload, will my hon. Friend recommit to Sitting suspended. 261 27 APRIL 2021 Tool Theft (Prevention) 262

Tool Theft (Prevention) Because of the second-hand market for stolen goods, Barry has far too often seen tools that cost more than Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order £500 new being offered for sale for as little as a tenner. No. 23) These can include tool belts full of a builder’s collection, some built up over many years and passed from craftsman 2.8 pm to apprentice, being sold underground for the price of a Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): I beg to move, packet of cigarettes. Barry tells me that because of the That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require persons selling prevalence of this type of criminality, van insurance second hand tools online to show the serial numbers of those companies are now charging premiums comparable to tools in searchable advertisement text; and for connected purposes. those for a new driver, forcing many young builders to Tool theft is at a crisis point in this country. More than have no financial protection from the theft of tools in half of builders in the United Kingdom have fallen foul their vehicle. Barry has yet to be reunited with any of of tool theft. A survey of tradespeople by Opinium last his stolen tools over the years. Indeed, just 3% of tools year found that roofers had been the worst-hit group, are ever returned to owners. As there is often a sad with 65% saying that tools had been stolen, followed by assumption that reporting the theft will be a waste of electricians at 58%, plumbers at 55% and carpenters at time, I fear that van break-ins are too often under-reported. 54%. Tool theft is not just happening in one or two Tool theft is also taking its toll on builders’ mental areas; it is blighting businesses up and down the country. health. The Federation of Master Builders tells me that Pick up a local paper, and there is a good chance of tool theft has led to 15% of builders suffering from finding a story about tool theft. anxiety, one in 10 builders suffering from depression, The impact can be devastating, with builders having and some reporting experiences of panic attacks and, to beg and borrow whatever is available to get by. It is very sadly, even suicidal thoughts. not only the inconvenience and the cost of having to During my time in this House,this has been a particularly buy new tools; tradespeople are missing out on work if impactful issue for the residents of the town of Buckingham they do not have the correct equipment to complete a in my constituency, where thieves have targeted parked job. When asked how many working days builders had vans in the area. My constituents want to see action lost to tool theft over the past 10 years, one in three taken to combat this criminality, and they are not alone, builders said that one to two working days had been because 84% of tradespeople do not believe that enough lost, 16% said two to five working days and 7% said that is being done to prevent tool theft. Beyond the usual they had lost five working days or more. Despicable as arguments about more bobbies on the beat, which I am this is, criminals have no misgivings about preventing delighted this Government are already providing, and others from going about their work and providing for things like CCTV, the challenge for all of us in this their families. These tools mean the world to their House is to ask ourselves what practical measures can owners, and the thieves have no idea of their true value. be put in place to prevent this from happening in the Indeed, workers often start out with cheaper tools and first place. buy better ones over time as their businesses grow. They From my past involvement in community safety and are a sign of the pride people take in their work. crime prevention, I do understand that there are many Research from Direct Line for Business shows that ways to stop or deter crime without placing further more than £83 million-worth of tools have been stolen pressure on our police. Indeed, following a spate of tool across England and Wales in the last three years. This thefts in the town of Buckingham last year, talk of how equates to £83,500 of equipment going missing every to tackle this problem was alive on a local community day.Data from the Federation of Master Builders reveals Facebook forum, and it was among the comments on that 38% of these incidents involved theft from vans. that discussion that the idea behind this Bill was formed. Indeed, a tradesperson’s van is broken into on average every 20 minutes. A further 34% of thefts are from We know that those who steal tools do not do so to building sites, 7% are from a shed or garage at home, complete a DIY project at home—to put up some and 3% are from inside the home. It goes without saying shelves or re-do the kitchen. Tools are stolen in order to that tools are not cheap. The average value of a reported be sold and monetised, and most stolen tools end up for stolen item is £385, with the most common value of sale online. As criminals become more sophisticated, overall loss standing at £2,500 in a single theft. One in and with meagre regulations and little scrutinyof third-party 10 builders say that they have had at least £10,000-worth sellers, they find online platforms to be efficient channels of tools stolen, and 2% said that they have had at least to sell stolen items and monetise their crimes. £20,000-worth taken from them. Online marketplaces often display thousands of tools It also goes without saying that an incident of theft for sale with no address and no serial numbers, providing significantly sets a business’s finances back. Let me give anonymity—a shield allowing criminals to hide in plain the example of my constituent, Barry Phipps. Barry has sight. To tackle that, I am bringing forward this proposal been a builder for 38 years, and for the past 15 years, that online marketplaces should require individuals selling Barry and his wife have run their Princes Risborough-based second-hand tools to show, in a searchable format, the building company, BEP Contracting Ltd. BEP has been serial numbers—the unique identifiers—of all such items. responsible for thousands of building projects locally, The use of serial numbers would close down ways for but Barry, like far too many builders, has been the people to turn their stolen goods into money, and it victim of three separate tool crimes, with burglaries would facilitate the ability of victims, the police and from his home, his storage yard and his vehicle. Barry insurance companies to track down stolen items. has lost in excess of £40,000-worth of tools—tools that A better and more comprehensive tracker is what is are vital to his ability to earn a living and support his needed, coupled with a database from which information family, and his ability to provide local employment and on these serial numbers can be sourced. That would to purchase goods and services in the area. help the police to respond quickly and would have the 263 Tool Theft (Prevention) 27 APRIL 2021 264 effect of introducing traceability. There could even be Fire Safety Bill technological procedures in place where these online platforms are continuously searched against a database Consideration of Lords message for reported stolen items. Of course, I am not suggesting this is some sort of After Clause 2 magic bullet that will solve tool theft overnight. Clearly, PROHIBITION ON PASSING REMEDIATION COSTS ON TO not all stolen tools are sold on the internet, but many LEASEHOLDERS AND TENANTS PENDING OPERATION OF A are, and every opportunity to monetise these ill-gotten STATUTORY SCHEME gains that is shut down will help to stop such crimes for good. I believe that the relatively simple measures in 2.19 pm this Bill could encourage people to come forward and report this type of crime, and a tradesperson themselves The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): I beg could search such sites to find their stolen goods. I to move, submit this Bill as a practical way of removing some of That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 4J. the incentive to commit the crimes in the first place. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): With I fear that there is a perception that commercial this it will be convenient to consider amendments (g) crime, such as stealing from tradespeople or businesses, to (l) in lieu of Lords amendment 4J. is less injurious to the victim than, say, a home burglary, but that is not the case. The reality is that, with these Christopher Pincher: I want first of all to thank all crimes, thieves are depriving honest people of a means hon. Members for joining in this crucial debate, because to work. Putting this measure in place will go a long all of us in this House agree that residents deserve to be way to combating tool theft and protecting the lives and safe, and to feel safe, in their homes. I want to reiterate livelihoods of millions of tradespeople. Let us take this in the strongest terms the importance of the Bill as a step—a much-needed step—so it can play its part in the step along the way to delivering that objective, and the overall mission of stamping out tool theft once and for risk that we would create if we were to continue to allow all. these remediation amendments, however well-intentioned, Question put and agreed to. to delay legislation. Ordered, The Bill was introduced over a year ago. We are almost at the point of getting it on the statute book, That Greg Smith, Paul Bristow, Nick Fletcher, Andrew and it is vital that we remind ourselves of the fundamental Griffith, Jane Hunt, Dean Russell, Jim Shannon and purpose of what we are seeking to achieve—to provide Alexander Stafford present the Bill. much-needed legal clarification of the Regulatory Reform Greg Smith accordingly presented the Bill. (Fire Safety) Order 2005 and direct the update of the Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time fire risk assessments to ensure that they apply to structure, tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 294). external walls and flat entrance doors. I will give way briefly to the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), but I want as many hon. Members to speak as possible. Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Ministers have repeatedly said that leaseholders should not bear the costs of the fire cladding scandal. Why is he insisting today that they should? Christopher Pincher: The right hon. Gentleman knows of the very significant amount of public money that we have set aside to remediate those buildings that are the most at risk of fire, where serious injury might take place, and the financial provisions that we have set aside also to help other leaseholders. If we do not resolve the Bill this week, fire assessments will not cover those critical elements of which I spoke, and they may continue to be ignored by less responsible building owners.Moreover, the fire and rescue services will be without the legal certainty that they need to take enforcement action. Ultimately, that will compromise the safety of many people living in multi-occupied residential buildings. Without the clarification provided by the Bill, it will mean delaying implementation, possibly by a year, of a number of measures that will deliver the Grenfell inquiry recommendations. As I said, I want as many Members as possible to have the opportunity to speak, so I will say no more for the moment until I wind up the debate, save for reiterating two points. First, these remaining amendments, although laudable in their intentions, would be unworkable and 265 Fire Safety Bill 27 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 266

[Christopher Pincher] agree that the UK Government need to get around the table with the Welsh Government and provide clarity an inappropriate means to resolve a problem as highly on how those taxes will work, and how money will flow complex as this. Secondly, the Government share the from the building levy and the tax? The UK Government concerns of leaseholders on remediation costs, and have have not yet done that. We have finally had an answer to responded, as the House knows, with unprecedented the letter from the Welsh Housing Minister, and the levels of financial support to the tune of over £5 billion, Welsh Government have put aside money, but they are with further funds from the developer tax, which the not clear how much money is coming from the UK Treasury will begin to consult upon imminently, as well Government. as the tall buildings levy. Developers themselves have begun to announce more significant remediation funds. Sarah Jones: My hon. Friend has raised that point It is in everyone’s interests to ensure that we do not many times, and he is standing up for his constituents in put at risk the progress that has been made by failing to a way that I am afraid that this Government will not. get the Bill on the statute book by the end of this Session. What do the Government care about? We are left with one possible answer. Do the Government care only Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): about the donors who keep their Prime Minister in Before I call the shadow Minister, may I reiterate that fancy furniture, so that he can spend £60,000 on curtains this is a very short debate with a long list of speakers, in No. 10, while nurses and key workers out there face which is why I have put a three-minute limit on Back £60,000 bills for cladding with no wealthy Tory donors Benchers? Obviously, if colleagues can be shorter than to bail them out? Do the Government really care only that, we might actually get everybody in. about big property developers, such as European Land and Property, which developed a block of flats in Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab): The Sunday Paddington that used the same aluminium composite Times reported two days ago that the Bank of England material cladding as was on the Grenfell Tower, and is worried that which has donated £2.5 million to the Conservative party since the Grenfell Tower fire in 2017? Do the “Britain’s building safety scandal could cause a new financial Government really care only about Britain’s biggest crisis.” builders, who have built up vast profits during the The Bank is worried about the scandal’s impact on pandemic, such as Persimmon— property values,as new data from the Leasehold Knowledge Partnership shows that fire-risk flats can sell for as little Christopher Pincher: Peter Mandelson. Tony Blair. as one third of their purchase price. That is devastating and requires an immediate response from the Government. Sarah Jones: The Minister is shouting names at me The Government surely should not need reminding from a sedentary position, but he is not answering the that a collapse in house prices triggered the global question. I do not want to be right. I do not want that to financial crisis in 2007, but it seems that they do, and it be what the Government care about. I honestly always seems that they also need reminding of the misery that believe the best in people and applaud my colleagues this crisis is causing hundreds of thousands of people. from across the House who have stood up for their The safety scandal that has unravelled in the wake of constituents time and again on this, but even they are inaction and indecision since the Grenfell Tower fire in asking why else the Chancellor and the Prime Minister 2017 has left up to 1.3 million flats unmortgageable and are ignoring a financial and human crisis on such a affects thousands of recently built houses. As many as growing and worrying scale. 3 million people face a wait of up to a decade to sell or Let us vote today to start putting this right and prove get a new mortgage because they cannot prove that me wrong. It is not just Opposition Members who their homes are safe, and we have leaseholders who face support amendments to protect leaseholders. A recent repair bills of up to £75,000 for flaws such as flammable poll from YouGov commissioned by the National Housing cladding and balconies, and missing fire breaks. Federation found that three quarters of MPs, including We stand here today while thousands watch this two thirds of Conservative MPs, say that the Government debate and suffer, worrying about their futures, getting should pay the costs of all building safety work up front into debt and facing bankruptcy.Wehave to ask ourselves and then claim it back later from those who are responsible. what the Government actually care about. They do not I have not heard a single argument that bears any appear to care that the Bank of England thinks that we scrutiny as to why it is okay to let leaseholders foot a bill are heading for a financial crisis. They do not appear to for tens of thousands of pounds, or to sit by as homeowners care that thousands and thousands are living with anxiety, face bankruptcy or decades of lingering debt. fear and debt. They do not seem to care that the vague We welcome the latest amendment from the Bishop and undefined loan scheme that they have hailed as the of St Albans, which would put into law a guarantee that answer—despite having promised many times that building owners cannot pass on the costs of any remedial leaseholders will not have to pay—will damage people’s work to leaseholders in the time before the Government property prices and will not actually be in place, as we introduce their promised legislation. I am also very hear today, for at least two years, leaving thousands to interested in the amendments tabled by the right hon. pay mounting waking watch bills and stuck in properties Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), which propose that they cannot sell. that the Government should follow the polluter pays principle. Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Yet again, the Government have decided to lay a Co-op): I completely agree with the points that my hon. motion to disagree with the Lords amendment. This is a Friend is raising. She will know the suffering of my betrayal of the promise that Ministers have made over constituents in Cardiff South and Penarth. Does she 17 times that leaseholders will not be left to foot the bill. 267 Fire Safety Bill 27 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 268

The Minister’s argument that it would delay further MPs, including Conservative MPs, agree that the works does not work. If the Government have not managed Government should resolve this issue. They believe, as I to work out how to pursue the money from those do, that it should not be the taxpayers who pay, despite responsible, why do they not do what is right and stop what some in government have been saying. It should be leaseholders footing the bill? those who are responsible—the manufacturers, the The Bishop of St Albans’s amendment would buy the developers, the National House Building Council and Government some time. It would protect leaseholders development control. Some of those, of course, are while the Government come up with a longer-term local authorities. The Government can underwrite what plan. We ask the Minister again, if he does not think is needed and then take it back from the industry. It that the proposed amendments are right as they are, may take years, but we will charge interest. It should be why not amend them? Why, when it is directly in their those who are responsible who pay. gift, will the Government not pay to fix these problems We have been accused of wanting to kill the Fire and then go after the building companies and developers Safety Bill. Nothing could be further from the truth. If that are responsible? Leaseholders deserve justice now. the Government wanted the Bill to succeed as much as I do, they would do what was necessary to get the Bill 2.30 pm through this place and the other place, but they have I want to end by remembering the 72 people who lost thus far chosen not to. After today, the Bill will go back their lives in the Grenfell Tower fire nearly four years to the Lords, and it will, in all likelihood, come back ago. The inquest is a daily reminder of the impact of the again. The amendment may come back with a different bonfire of regulations under David Cameron and the name and moved by someone else. If that happens, the lack of care that the Government took over the last Bill may well fall. That will not be my fault or our fault. 11 years. For the memory of those who died, we must That will be the Government’s fault. right these wrongs, we must learn the lessons and we must protect the hundreds of thousands who face daily Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab) [V]: It is a great uncertainty, fear and bills. I say to all Members: back pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Southampton, the bishop today, vote for the Lords amendment and Itchen (Royston Smith). Here we are again debating a start to put this right. Lords amendment to protect leaseholders from having to pay to fix construction defects and unsafe cladding Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): We that never were and never should be their responsibility, now move to a three-minute time limit. I call Royston and yet Ministers continue to resist, even though they Smith. have repeatedly said that leaseholders should not have to bear the cost. The trouble with this endless debate is Royston Smith (Southampton, Itchen) (Con): The that the clock is ticking and innocent leaseholders continue longer this debate drags on, the more damaging it to face unreasonable costs as bills now start to arrive becomes to the Government and the worse it becomes demanding sums of money that they simply do not possess. for innocent leaseholders. On Saturday evening, there One constituent wrote to me last week enclosing a was a fire in the tallest tower block in Southampton. photograph of the bill he has just been sent, for £27,000. That building has ACM cladding. As I understand it, it Another thinks that their bill will be £40,000. They was alight. Hampshire fire and rescue responded quickly obviously cannot remortgage their flats. So I ask the and dealt with the fire with its characteristic professionalism. Minister: what are people in this situation meant to do? Fortunately, the fire was not too serious, but it could Sadly, we know that the Government do not have an have been. What would we be saying today if the worst answer to this, or indeed to the mental and emotional had happened, I wonder? torment that these people are being put through. That is why this amendment is needed, and needed now. I have said from the start that there are three dimensions to the fire safety scandal: the moral, the economic and Even taking account of the Government funding the political. The moral obligation is obvious: this already announced, the Leasehold Knowledge Partnership Government have a duty to hold those who are responsible estimates that about two thirds of the total cost will still to account and to defend the innocent leaseholders. fall on leaseholders: the very people whom the Government There should be no disagreement on that issue. say should not pay. The Association of Residential Managing Agents estimates that the average remediation Secondly, on the economic, the Government clearly bill will be about £50,000 a flat and that insurance costs think that my concerns about toxic debt, mass bankruptcy have risen by 400%. The Government estimate that the and repossession are wrong, but it is not just me who average cost of a waking watch outside London is over thinks it is a risk. The Bank of England is concerned, £2,100 a year for each flat. Leaseholders in shared too—so concerned that it is assessing whether the fire ownership properties are in a particular bind. The building safety scandal could cause a new financial crisis. With safety fund is moving too slowly. There is a shortage of up to 1.3 million flats unmortgageable, perhaps the companies who can, or will, do the work. There is total Government should be a little more concerned about uncertainty as to what is meant to happen when we the economic issue. know that there are other works that have to be done to Finally, on the political, the Government believe in make buildings safe but for which the Government are the home-owning democracy. It defines us. We have not prepared, so far, to offer funding. I find it very hard encouraged it. We have incentivised it. In fact, many to believe that Ministers do not understand that the people would not be in their own property without the remedy they have come forward with so far is patently support of Government. How do we look ourselves in insufficient, or that, without a comprehensive plan, the mirror when we have helped people to buy a home leaseholders will, month by month and year by year, in a dangerous building that is worth less—sometimes inevitably face financial collapse because of the huge much less—than they paid for it? The truth is that most burden of costs being put on their shoulders. 269 Fire Safety Bill 27 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 270

[Hilary Benn] all the blameless leaseholders affected by the cladding crisis, including the many thousands who live in one of In conclusion, can I assure the Minister that the the more than 70 affected buildings in my constituency. growing number of MPs who support the Lords In seeking last week to persuade their lordships to amendment are not going anywhere, and that is because cease insisting on amendments designed to protect all our constituents have nowhere else to go? leaseholders from remediation costs, the Minister for Building Safety argued once again that such provision is Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con) [V]: It is a unnecessary and that to continue to seek to amend the pleasure to be able to speak in this debate. Bill in such a way would risk its passage in this Session, It is unfortunate that this is the third time the House could increase fire safety risks and might “ultimately of Lords has felt it necessary to return this Bill to the cost lives”. Yet it is the very fact that this crisis is already House of Commons. That is because their lordships, ruining countless lives that led their lordships to insist like many MPs across the House, feel that the Bill once again that this place reconsider, and they were cannot progress without some form of protection for entirely right to do so. leaseholders. It completely astonishes me that people in government cannot hear the screams of pain of leaseholders Stephen Timms: I agree with what my hon. Friend says. begging for help—people who are going bankrupt and I wonder whether he has visited claddingscandalmap.co.uk, people who are being hit with high insurance premiums. which maps 450 buildings with 60,000 homes affected We were told only last week of an insurance premium by this scandal. It also shows the Members of this for a building that was £11,963 last year but £242,400 House who are voting to force leaseholders to pay this year. People are being hit with bills of £6,000 each towards the costs. with seven days to pay them and no recourse to help. With waking watches, there are interim bills that are Matthew Pennycook: I thank my right hon. Friend for going through the roof. Leaseholders cannot pay this; that intervention. I have seen the site in question, and it they cannot afford this. The reality is that these buildings brings home—I know he shares my feelings, as his will not be made safe by transferring the financial and constituency is so close to mine—the fact that certain legal liability on to leaseholders. Leaseholders do not parts of the country with high numbers of new build have the funds to fix it. As my hon. Friend the Member properties, including constituencies such as ours, are for Southampton, Itchen (Royston Smith) said, we, particularly badly affected. I have tens of thousands of leaseholders and leaseholders’ groups do not want the constituents affected. taxpayer to pay; we want the taxpayer to provide a As welcome as they were, the five-point plan and the safety net to help. We believe that those responsible additional grant funding that the Government announced should pay—nobody else. on 10 February are still only a partial solution to the Nobody wants this Bill to fail. We are nearly four cladding crisis, and they consciously and deliberately years on from Grenfell. The Minister mentioned Grenfell leave a significant proportion of leaseholders exposed in his opening remarks. I would like to read him a to costs they cannot possibly hope to bear. For significant statement that has been issued by Grenfell United: numbers of leaseholders, that exposure is not some theoretical future risk, but a reality that they are already “The fire safety bill is back in the commons. Government confronting. is using the excuse that the amendment will delay Grenfell recommendations. The amendment is to protect leaseholders To take just one example, I had a lengthy exchange from charges. The FSB is separate & it is wrong to claim support yesterday with the right-to- manage directors of a small of it damages recommendations. Using Grenfell Recommendations 24-unit building in east Greenwich, Blenheim Court, to justify government’s indifference is deeply upsetting for us and which requires urgent remediation and is under 18 metres shows they’d rather protect the corporates responsible from paying in height. As things stand, not only are the leaseholders for the mess they created. Our request is simple: implement in question living with the punishing uncertainty of not Grenfell recommendations make homes safe & protect lease holders from financial ruin. Nearly 4 years since Grenfell and yet knowing if or when their building might be issued with not a single piece of legislation has been passed. Homes have to a forced loan of the kind the Government propose, but be made safe this is a basic human right. We ask all MPs that because they do not have the funds to commence committed to ensuring Grenfell 2 could not happen to do remediation works, they are struggling with myriad the right thing today by us and the thousands of leaseholders secondary costs, including a soaring building insurance effected.” premium, which has led their service charges to increase Grenfell United and the people affected there have from about £2,500 a year per flat to more than £130,000—I spoken. Leaseholders up and down the country are have seen the invoice, and the figure is correct—and speaking. Our constituents are speaking and Members there is a very real risk of mass defaults as a result. of Parliament are hearing them. The Bishop of St Albans Every week that this House fails to act, more leaseholders has tabled an amendment to try to provide the Government are placed in similar situations and put at risk of with the opportunity of the time and space to come negative equity and bankruptcy. I have absolutely no forward with a compromise. I urge the Government to doubt that the Government will ultimately be forced to compromise and bring forward an amendment in the bring forward a more comprehensive solution that protects House of Lords later today to help support leaseholders. all affected leaseholders from the costs of fixing both cladding and non-cladding building safety defects. Seeking Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): to pass the costs on to even a proportion of them will I am extremely grateful for the opportunity to speak so almost certainly mean that the works simply do not get early in this important debate. It is a pleasure to follow done. Unless this House is content to follow that path the hon. Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland). and see many more lives needlessly destroyed in the I thank their lordships for the tenacity and perseverance interim, it must act today and take decisive steps towards they have shown over many months in standing up for resolving this crisis. 271 Fire Safety Bill 27 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 272

I urge Ministers, even at this late stage, to honour Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab) their commitments previously given from the Dispatch [V]: Four years have passed since the Grenfell tragedy, Box and come forward with a sensible concession. If and once again the House is debating whether or not to they do not, I urge MPs from across the House to protect leaseholders from the costs of remedying fire safety protect blameless leaseholders and support the amendment defects caused by a failure of regulation and negligence, in the name of the Lord Bishop of St Albans in the as well as by deceptive practices in the building industry. Division Lobby shortly. Meanwhile, the Government continue to dither and delay, and order their MPs to vote against amendments Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): I rise to speak designed to protect leaseholders. Make no mistake, the to the amendments in my name. I am grateful for the funds that the Government have made available thus far support from all parties for them. I thank my hon. have taken too much time to come on stream. The Friends the Members for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) money will not ultimately be enough to meet the scale and for Southampton, Itchen (Royston Smith) for the of the crisis and, crucially, interim costs are not covered. work they have done on this issue. On top of all those costs, today we have heard about We have to find a way forward. We cannot continue the cost of insurance. I have lost count of the times that this sterile ping-pong between the two Houses of I have pleaded with the Government to do something Parliament. We need an actual plan, and I believe about insurance costs. In my constituency there have that my amendments set out a workable way that the been insurance increases of 1,000% in affected buildings. Government can take this issue forward. Those are shocking figures, and this shocking situation There are three issues that need to be dealt with, the is falling on deaf ears as far as the Government are first of which is forfeiture. The idea that people’sproperties concerned. Long before any cladding is removed from can be repossessed because they have been unable to these buildings, the people living in them will have been pay cladding costs, which are unjust in the first place, is ruined by the costs of insurance and interim measures abhorrent. We need to reform leasehold legislation to such as waking watches to keep their buildings open. prevent that from happening. There is simply nothing left to remedy the internal fire Secondly, we need a proper plan for apportionment safety defects as well. Leaseholders need the protection of costs, as I set out in the appropriate persons for fire that the Lords amendment would offer. safety order costs amendment. That means that taxpayers We should never forget that at any point, a further are not asked to write a blank cheque, and nor will tragedy could—God forbid—occur. That is a terror that those with responsibility have the ability to collapse a leaseholders in Brindley House in my constituency have company so that they can avoid costs at a future date. had to face, because on 31 January this year there was a We have got to ensure that the “polluter pays” principle fire in a flat in their building. I have seen the burned-out is applied in this case. husk of that flat for myself. The fire service said that the residents were only two minutes away from the fire 2.45 pm engulfing the whole of their building. Two more minutes The third thing we need is a real-time study, by the and the windows in that flat would have shattered, and Department, to look at real people with real bills who the cladding wrapped around that building would have are facing real negative equity and insurances issues, caught fire. When I heard that, my blood ran cold. Can and who have difficulty accessing the building safety the Minister imagine what it must be like for the people fund, given the narrow timescale and the fact that there who live in Brindley House? That is the risk, that is the are too few experts able to get them into that process. I fear, and that is the scale of the financial ruination that therefore suggest the following. people in my constituency and all over the country are How do we do this? First, on 11 May in the Queen’s trying to cope with. Speech, we need to bring this issue forward in leasehold One of my constituents recently said to me that he legislation, and deal with it once and for all. The now thinks it will be less stressful to declare himself Government have the ability to give us that assurance. bankrupt and become homeless than to try to find a Secondly, the long title of the forthcoming Building way to carry on as a leaseholder. At the very least, the Safety Bill needs to be framed in such a way that we can Government could and should support the Lords deal with amendments relating to appropriate persons amendment, or indicate a clear way through the crisis, for fire safety order costs. That is also within the so that we send a clear signal to all leaseholders that we Government’s gift. Thirdly, if the Minister looks at my will stand with them. constituency of Portishead as a microcosm of the problems we face, he will see there are some buildings above Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: I start from 18 metres and some below; some have good management, the principle that successive Secretaries of State and some poor management. There are people with good Ministers have said from the Dispatch Box that the copies of all the bills and who can tell a story to real leaseholders are the innocent parties in this scandal and officials in real time. All these things are possible. I set that they should not have to pay a penny piece towards them out in the amendments as a route out of the sterile the costs of remediation. I applaud the Government for position in which we find ourselves. coming forward with £5.1 billion of public money to We cannot simply continue passing this issue between support the remediation of unsafe cladding, but our the two Houses of Parliament. Our voters expect Parliament problem is that it is not enough. The estimate now is to come forward with solutions. We can find a genuinely that £15 billion will be required and that the extra practical way forward. Weare two weeks from the Queen’s £10 billion will have to come from leaseholders as the Speech. We can bring this legislation forward and enable last resort, because building owners will naturally pass the House to come together and provide solutions for that on to leaseholders wherever they possibly can. our constituents in the way that they have the right to They are the ones in situ; they are the ones facing these expect, and we have the duty to provide. huge bills. 273 Fire Safety Bill 27 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 274

[Bob Blackman] advisory documents and in particular building regulations control. The fire survey for these particular buildings The Government say that further proposals will come said: forward on the forced loan scheme. We were promised “There is evidence that the junctions between compartment in the earlier statement in February that the loan scheme floors were inadequately fire stopped…as there were gaps at would be announced at the Budget. Now, I did make mineral wool fire barriers at steel framing. There were no visible the assumption that that was the Budget in 2021, not fire barriers at vents or around windows/door frames and it could the Budget in 2022 or 2023. The reality is that the not be confirmed that the window/door frames themselves formed evidence given to the Housing, Communities and Local cavity barriers.” Government Committee and other bodies suggests that That indicates that at the time of construction the the forced loan scheme is nowhere near being available. building regulations then in force were not followed. We as Members of Parliament are not even able to That means that these people were sold a building that scrutinise the proposal, so those who are living in was not fit for habitation, yet the Government are not blocks of flats of six floors or less do not even know pursuing the people responsible; they are making sure how that scheme will work. My estimate is that many that it is the innocent parties who will pay. Their lives people will end up with a bill that will last for 100 years, are being ruined, as Members in all parts of this House therefore factoring in, almost inevitably, a dramatic have said. It is vital that the Government address this reduction in the value of their properties. Equally, we and accept the Lords amendment. In particular, they know that the fire safety remediation required in addition need to focus on addressing the very real issues in to the remediation of unsafe cladding almost dwarfs the building control regulations that allowed this scandal to costs of remediating the cladding. All those costs will happen in the first place. once again be passed on to the innocent leaseholders. Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con): The Government’s I understand that my right hon. Friend on the Front plan and funding to address this fire safety issue are a Bench has to defend this position and clearly wants to welcome start. I am not going to rehearse the points get the Fire Safety Bill on the statute book. Let us be already made this afternoon, but I believe that the role clear. I do not think any MP wishes to prevent the progress of affordable home ownership schemes in this disaster of the Fire Safety Bill. What we do need, however, is has been overlooked. surety and assuredness, because the draft Building Safety Bill will almost certainly take 18 months to two years to Many people engulfed in this scandal are first-time bring to fruition. The leaseholders do not have that time buyers who took their first step on the property ladder to wait. My right hon. Friend the Minister has made it clear through Conservative-backed schemes intended to boost on a number of occasions that he finds the amendments home ownership. People use these schemes because they defective. Well, there is still time. I agree with my right are not cash rich, but they are now facing unexpected hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) bills for life-changing sums, and some are being asked that there is a solution. If the Government reject that to take up further Government loans to pay them. The solution, let them come forward with their own solution drafting of this Bill means that despite owning only in the House of Lords. Let us agree that the leaseholders part of the value of their flat, leaseholders are potentially do not have to pay a penny and the Fire Safety Bill can liable for 100% of the share of the costs. In effect, they go on the statute book, as we would all like to see. are subsidising their landlords, who own the remaining percentage of the value of the flat but pay nothing to remedy the defects. Leaseholders have always had to Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab) [V]: The Minister pay for the maintenance and upkeep of buildings they should be very careful. The speeches in this debate do not own, owing to the way leasehold agreements today are an example of Parliament at its best and work, but the building defects and costs involved to fix Government at their worst. The Minister has heard them are beyond what anyone could have contemplated. Members from across the House, and from his own party in particular, criticise what the Government are With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I doing. He would be a very wise Minister to listen to would like to read out a case study of a future constituent Parliament. If he refuses to listen, I think he should —someone hoping to relocate to my constituency. This think about his future. individual owns a one-bedroom flat in the Olympic village in London, in which she has a 35% interest, and In March this year, leaseholders in Wembley Central is seeking to move to Penzance, in my constituency, to apartments in my constituency were told that in response be with her fiancé. The flat was sold to her as a low-risk to the publication by the Government of the Building investment; she was encouraged by the shared ownership (Amendment) Regulations 2018, a waking watch system Government scheme, as part of their affordable housing would be implemented as soon as possible. The cost of directive. Her block was found to have missing fire the waking watch patrols would be recovered from cavity barriers, rendering it a B2 rating, warranting leaseholders in the sum of £91,380 a month. The cost of remediation, with the bills potentially being in excess of the remedial works to the fire alarm system across £50,000 for her flat alone. The housing association is Central Apartments,Ramsey House and MetroApartments trying to bring the developers to account, something is estimated to be in the order of £250,000 to £300,000. that legally it is not required to do. Failing that, this will The owners said that they were unable to say the total result in a lengthy legal battle, during which she may cost of all four recommendations and that they therefore well be presented with the bill for remediation work in could not advise the liability of each leaseholder. order to make the block fire safe and adhere to the I find it unacceptable that the Government are imposing Government’s new guidelines. Applying for a grant billions of pounds of costs on leaseholders retrospectively under the Jenrick announcement for remediation works to remedy misconduct by others, such as the developer, is an extremely slow and complicated process. If the the builder or those producing the Government’s own housing association does not succeed in getting the 275 Fire Safety Bill 27 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 276 perpetrators to fix their mess, she will get the bill, and as although not because it is perfect—it is far from perfect a shared owner she will be liable for the full 100% of the and not without its flaws. My problem is that I do not bill, not 35%, which is the share she owns of the property. see the Government responding to the overwhelming In any case, it is highly unlikely she will be able to sell concern about what is happening to leaseholders, many property for years to come and buy into the Cornish of whom, as has been said before, were first-time buyers. economy by purchasing a house. We face, today, an issue of concern both personal and My right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset public. The public concern is that the devaluation of (Dr Fox) has put forward very pragmatic proposals to these homes is now so dramatic that it will cause an unlock the deadlock and improve the fire safety of homes economic shock. I remember the old negative equity across our nation, and I would welcome the Minister’s problem that erupted as a result of a collapse, and I do response to these sensible proposals, not want to see us back there again. I accept that, as has been said, the Government have already put £5.1 billion Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD) [V]: Over the weekend, into the process, but it is worth at least another £10 billion it was reported that the Bank of England is assessing in settlement, and that is going to fall on the shoulders whether Britain’s building safety scandal could cause a of leaseholders. new financial crisis—why? It was because 1.3 million flats are unmortgageable and as many as 3 million people Let me relate what is going on in my constituency. face a wait of up to 10 years to sell or get a new mortgage Like everybody else, I have a set of estates, including because they cannot prove that their homes are safe. Queen Mary’s Gate and Blackberry Court, among other This scandal has gone on for too long and it has blocks in my constituency. Many of them are under already caused too much damage. This Government 18 metres and have cladding—this is the point that has must accept the Lords amendment that would protect been raised—that was not compliant at the time of their leaseholders from exorbitant costs, or they should drop building. The leaseholders did not know that—they this Bill altogether and bring back a better version in bought their homes with a sense that they were buying the Queen’s Speech. It is simply incredible that the something that was right and reasonable—and are now Government have had 10 whole months to break the not eligible for the safety fund. deadlock and propose a solution that they find acceptable, What has happened because of all this? We have tried but they have refused to do so. Instead, they wage a to get hold of the developer, Telford Homes, but it has campaign of scaremongering, telling us that if the Bill not engaged for more than a year now. Telford Homes fails it will have the effect of increasing fire safety risks. does not answer anything or engage about what it might Well, that is not the view of the leaseholders in my do; it has gone to ground. That is the problem that lies constituency; it is not the view of the leaseholder group; at the heart of all this right now: there is no way that the and it is not the view of the Cladding Action Group. leaseholders can get redress because they cannot go to They are speaking with one voice and they are clear that those who did this wrongly at the time and the Government they would much rather see this defective Bill fall than have not brought forward any mechanism to allow pass in its current form. leaseholders to get after these individuals, who will sit there and wait for the leaseholders to waste their money. 3 pm The Lords amendment is not perfect, but I am trying The devastating consequences of accepting the Bill to articulate a cry for help from my constituents and unamended cannot be overstated. Millions of leaseholders others around the country. I agree with and support the who are already facing financial ruin through no fault amendments tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member of their own live with the terror of this Bill passing into for North Somerset (Dr Fox). Let us find a way to make law. If it does, they will be landed with even more sure that those who were responsible stand up and pay extortionate bills, perhaps within a matter of days. The the bill. They have made a lot of money in the past, Government’s intransigence—their outright refusal to legitimately, on building homes; those who did not put budge—is making the situation so much worse, to the up the right cladding should automatically be in the point where I believe we now need an inquiry into the frame. Meanwhile, the costs spiral and my constituents Government’s response to the fire safety scandal. will pay them. How much money have leaseholders already had to Today, for the first time, I shall vote to maintain and payout? How manypeople have been driven to bankruptcy? hold the Lords amendment. I say to the Government How many have been made homeless? How many that if they do not want it, they had better get to the leaseholders have been pushed to the brink of suicide? Lords and get us something decent that allows us to Do the Government really think it is okay for 3 million give support to our leaseholder constituents, because people to have to wait up to 10 years before they are free that would be doing the right thing. to live in a fire-safe home? Do the Government think it is acceptable that leaseholders have no viable legal routes to challenge those who are responsible? Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab) [V]: I speak in favour of the Bishop of St Albans’ amendment. The cladding scandal and the fire safety scandal have As the UK Cladding Action Group has previously been a protracted nightmare for leaseholders, and the reported, there have already been leaseholder suicides Government’s failure to address the fire safety scandal and, worryingly, 23% of those surveyed by the group properly is now a scandal in itself. I urge all colleagues have considered suicide or self-harm. to support the Lords amendment, because millions of homeowners are relying on us all to do so. The Government must realise that the building safety fund only covers unsafe cladding, yet 70% of the buildings Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford surveyed have non-cladding fire safety defects. They Green) (Con): I support holding the Lords amendment. must understand that providing cladding remediation I think it is the right thing to do at the moment, funding for buildings over 18 metres,yet forcing leaseholders 277 Fire Safety Bill 27 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 278

[Rebecca Long Bailey] fund and which is driving them to desperate situations. It is absolutely right that they should then seek to in buildings under 18 metres to pay, is entirely unfair. recoup those funds from those who are responsible and They must recognise that there is no support available who have been at fault. There is nothing in the Lords at all for interim measure costs, including increased amendment or the amendments tabled by my right hon. insurance premiums and waking watches, which often Friend the Member for North Somerset that would run into figures of more than £15,000 per week. prevent that from happening. I urge the Government to To add further devastation, as we have heard today, think again and recognise that, although the core elements Inside Housing has reported that even the minority of of the Bill are good, collaterally, it does real injustice to leaseholders who could apply for loans face a wait of innocent leaseholders, such as many in my constituency potentially years. In the meantime, many residents still and elsewhere. For heaven’s sake, can we not find a live in unsafe buildings and are understood to have constructive way forward to achieve the objectives of already received requests for up-front payment, with the Bill and protect innocent leaseholders? Those things freeholders sometimes instructing solicitors to carry should not be mutually incompatible, but at the moment out debt recovery.This could result in a tide of bankruptcies we have not yet found a solution. and evictions. The situation is so bad that I understand that analysts at the Bank of England are now assessing Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab) [V]: I actually whether Britain’s building safety scandal could cause a think that the Prime Minister framed this debate well, new financial crisis. because he told the House on 3 February that It is clear that the Government’s approach is untenable “no leaseholder should have to pay for the unaffordable costs of and it must change today. Even the National Housing fixing safety defects that they did not cause and are no fault of Federation states that the only way to prevent leaseholders their own.”—[Official Report, 3 February 2021; Vol. 688, c. 945.] and social landlords from having to pay to remediate Those were his words. No ifs, no buts—it was an buildings they did not construct is for the Government unequivocal pledge. Clearly, the Government’s measures to provide up-front funding to remediate all buildings. I so far fall well short of fulfilling it. Today we have the hope all MPs today can recognise the moral duty they opportunity to address that, because the Lords amendments personally have to protect our constituents and will make good on that failure. vote in favour of the Lords amendment. I have spoken previously in the House about leaseholders in the Metis building, Wicker Riverside,Daisy Spring Works Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con) [V]: and elsewhere in my constituency who face a range of I had very much hoped that it would not be necessary issues with ACM and other cladding, compartmentation, for us to continue to have this debate in relation to this flammable materials wrongly used and other fire safety Bill. The core elements of the Bill are worth while and I products. They are trapped in homes that are unsafe support them. Unfortunately, however, it creates a set of and unsaleable, facing bills that will break them—some potential liabilities upon wholly innocent leaseholders, up to £50,000 each. without giving them an adequate means of redress. That is simply unfair. It is unfair on my constituents Let us remember that we are talking about young and it is unfair on people who have bought properties in people who stretched their budgets to the limit to buy good faith and who have relied on professional advice their first home; couples unable to move on when they and the regulatory regime that was then in force. If have their first child; others who cannot take new jobs there are people who were at fault, either in the construction because they cannot sell; and older people who have of the buildings or in the way in which surveys were sunk their life savings into their flat and have nowhere carried out, they should absolutely be held to account, to turn. They are being put under unbearable pressure but the people who should not end up with a liability and unimaginable mental strain. People have told me are the leaseholders, who have acted in good faith they fear collecting their post in the morning because of throughout. It is the absence of protection for them the bills it might contain. It is simply unacceptable. that, regrettably, causes me to have to support the Lords Today we can end that misery. amendment again today. Those who say that the costs should not fall on the My right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset public purse are right. The developers responsible should (Dr Fox) tabled what I thought were constructive pay up, as well as those responsible for failings in the amendments, which I was happy to sign. I hope—still; building regulation system. The only way that developers even at this late stage—that the Government will see and others responsible will be held to account is if the that there is a basis for progress to be made. As things Government own the problem, urgently undertake stand, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford remediation and then use the full resources of the state and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) noted, to chase down those responsible. Leaseholders simply we have to continue to press the case on the Government. cannot do it on their own. I hope that, if the House rejects the amendments—I We have that responsibility because successive hope it will vote for the Lords amendments and deal Governments oversaw a flawed system of building with the matter—it will give the Government yet a inspections, which signed off so many of these unsafe further chance to resolve this matter. buildings. These leaseholders are victims of comprehensive At the end of the day, we are not asking that the regulatory failure. There is a grave injustice here that taxpayer pick up the burden. We are asking that the must be remedied, and the Government must face leaseholders should be relieved, certainly in the short up to it. Those responsible for the failings should be term, of the pressures that fall upon them and that they responsible for putting them right, without any costs are unable to deal with. The Government are in a falling on leaseholders, either now or in the future position to fund the cash flow that leaseholders cannot through loans schemes. 279 Fire Safety Bill 27 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 280

Many leaseholders have stretched their finances to any possible cost associated with the fire safety order. the limit to buy their home. Some have already been That would take years. Leaseholders may be unable to bankrupted. Others are facing ruin. We have to put a sell or move until their building has been considered. stop to it today, so let us put aside other differences and Without much more clarity on how these decisions are do the right thing by accepting the Lords amendments. to be made, the Government themselves could be open to judicial review,slowing down important implementation Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I of policy and diverting taxpayers’money towards litigation apologise to those who did not get in, but I do need to once again. We believe that we should seek to keep these bring the Minister in. decisions on liability in the hands of the courts, not those of politicians. Christopher Pincher: I thank all hon. and right hon. Members for their contributions today. The House will However, there are points on which we agree. That is, know that we have a duty to implement clear and for example, on the principle around forfeiture. It is a effective legislation to support fire and building safety draconian measure that should be used only as a last reform. We have an obligation in this place to make resort. This matter should be considered as part of our good law. While I entirely accept that the motivations of wider programme on leasehold reform that we have all those who have contributed today are not to damage already indicated. Adding it to the Fire Safety Bill the Fire Safety Bill, I have to tell them that the practical purely for fire safety order costs will create a tangle of consequence of passing the Lords amendments would loopholes and potential for satellite litigation. be to do that, because they are ineffective and defective. My right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset Let me explain why, before moving on to some of the also talked about the apportionment of costs. He will other points that Members have made. know that the Government have announced a consultation The amendments would prevent any type of remediation on a tax measure on the development sector to ensure costs being passed on to leaseholders, even if the cost that the developers—those with the broadest shoulders— was very minor or if the leaseholder was responsible for pay their way. We reckon that that will yield at least damage, and that is not a proportionate response. There £2 billion over the period. Of course, we will want to is no framework in the Lord Bishop of St Albans’ keep that under review so that we can ensure that those amendment to distinguish between different works. I who ought to pay do pay and that taxpayers and think all Members would agree that the taxpayer should leaseholders are protected as far as they possibly can be. not be paying for minor costs, such as replacing a He also asked us to assure him that we will consider his smoke alarm, and that if the leaseholder is responsible own constituency case. I am very happy to commit, as for breaking a smoke alarm, in all likelihood they my hon. Friend the Secretary of State has done, to look should fix it. The amendment is also unclear on who at that constituency matter to see what we can learn should take responsibility for remediation works until a from the case study in North Somerset. statutory funding scheme is in place to pay or direct the In conclusion, these amendments are defective, and I costs, and that would result in remediation being delayed, am afraid I have to ask the House to respectfully even in the case of minor defects, if routes of cost disagree with their lordships and reject their amendments. recovery are unclear. Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 4J. Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Will my right hon. Friend give way? The House divided: Ayes 320, Noes 256. Division No. 278] [3.19 pm Christopher Pincher: If my hon. Friend does not mind, I will not give way, because I have to conclude my AYES remarks. Perhaps if I have a bit of time at the end, I will. These orphan liabilities would leave leaseholders Adams, Nigel Beresford, Sir Paul Afolami, Bim Berry, rh Jake continuing to live in unsafe properties with no further Afriyie, Adam Bhatti, Saqib clarity as to who will pay. It is important to ensure that Ahmad Khan, Imran Blunt, Crispin taxpayers’ money is protected as much as possible and Aiken, Nickie Bone, Mr Peter that remediation is not delayed unnecessarily in extended Aldous, Peter Bowie, Andrew litigation such as we might find ourselves in. It is not the Allan, Lucy Bradley, Ben solution that leaseholders need or the one that the Anderson, Lee Bradley, rh Karen taxpayer deserves. Anderson, Stuart Brady, Sir Graham Andrew, rh Stuart Braverman, rh Suella 3.15 pm Argar, Edward Brereton, Jack My right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset Atherton, Sarah Bridgen, Andrew (Dr Fox) has also tabled an amendment. It desires to Atkins, Victoria Brine, Steve provide greater clarity than perhaps other amendments Bacon, Gareth Bristow, Paul do, but it also shares some of the defects of the St Albans Bacon, Mr Richard Britcliffe, Sara Badenoch, Kemi Brokenshire, rh James amendment. It applies to any form of remediation, Bailey, Shaun Browne, Anthony including wear and tear, and there is no cost threshold Baillie, Siobhan Bruce, Fiona on what works should not be considered. Moreover, the Baker, Duncan Buckland, rh Robert amendment also provides that the Home Secretary will Baker, Mr Steve Burghart, Alex essentially be acting in a quasi-judicial role to adjudicate Baldwin, Harriett Burns, rh Conor whetherappropriatepartiesshouldpaycostsof remediation. Barclay, rh Steve Butler, Rob My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will find Baynes, Simon Cairns, rh Alun herself apportioning liability for any building with two Bell, Aaron Carter, Andy or more dwellings on a building-by-building basis for Benton, Scott Cartlidge, James 281 Fire Safety Bill 27 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 282

Cash, Sir William Grant, Mrs Helen Loughton, Tim Scully, Paul Cates, Miriam Gray, James Mackinlay, Craig Seely, Bob Chalk, Alex Grayling, rh Chris Mackrory, Cherilyn Selous, Andrew Churchill, Jo Griffith, Andrew Maclean, Rachel Shapps, rh Grant Clark, rh Greg Griffiths, Kate Mak, Alan Sharma, rh Alok Clarke, Mr Simon Grundy, James Malthouse, Kit Shelbrooke, rh Alec Clarke, Theo Gullis, Jonathan Mann, Scott Simmonds, David Clarke-Smith, Brendan Halfon, rh Robert Marson, Julie Skidmore, rh Chris Clarkson, Chris Hall, Luke May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Chloe Cleverly, rh James Hancock, rh Matt Mayhew, Jerome Smith, Greg Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hands, rh Greg Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Harper, rh Mr Mark McCartney, Karl Smith, rh Julian Collins, Damian Harrison, Trudy Menzies, Mark Solloway, Amanda Costa, Alberto Hart, Sally-Ann Mercer, Johnny Spencer, Dr Ben Courts, Robert Hart, rh Simon Merriman, Huw Spencer, rh Mark Coutinho, Claire Hayes, rh Sir John Metcalfe, Stephen Stafford, Alexander Cox, rh Sir Geoffrey Heald, rh Sir Oliver Millar, Robin Stephenson, Andrew Crabb, rh Stephen Heappey, James Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stevenson, Jane Crosbie, Virginia Heaton-Harris, Chris Milling, rh Amanda Stevenson, John Crouch, Tracey Henderson, Gordon Mills, Nigel Stewart, rh Bob Daly, James Henry, Darren Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stewart, Iain Davies, David T. C. Higginbotham, Antony Moore, Damien Stride, rh Mel Davies, Gareth Hinds, rh Damian Moore, Robbie Stuart, Graham Davies, Dr James Hoare, Simon Mordaunt, rh Penny Sturdy, Julian Davies, Mims Holden, Mr Richard Morris, David Sunak, rh Rishi Davison, Dehenna Hollinrake, Kevin Morris, James Sunderland, James Dinenage, Caroline Holloway, Adam Morrissey, Joy Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Dines, Miss Sarah Holmes, Paul Morton, Wendy Syms, Sir Robert Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Mullan, Dr Kieran Thomas, Derek Docherty, Leo Howell, Paul Mumby-Croft, Holly Throup, Maggie Donelan, Michelle Huddleston, Nigel Mundell, rh David Timpson, Edward Dorries, Ms Nadine Hudson, Dr Neil Murray, Mrs Sheryll Tomlinson, Justin Double, Steve Hughes, Eddie Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Michael Dowden, rh Oliver Hunt, Jane Nici, Lia Tracey, Craig Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Jeremy Norman, rh Jesse Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Drax, Richard Jack, rh Mr Alister O’Brien, Neil Trott, Laura Drummond, Mrs Flick Javid, rh Sajid Opperman, Guy Truss, rh Elizabeth Duddridge, James Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Parish, Neil Vara, Shailesh Duguid, David Jenkin, Sir Bernard Patel, rh Priti Vickers, Martin Dunne, rh Philip Jenkinson, Mark Paterson, rh Mr Owen Vickers, Matt Eastwood, Mark Jenkyns, Andrea Pawsey, Mark Villiers, rh Theresa Edwards, Ruth Jenrick, rh Robert Penning, rh Sir Mike Wakeford, Christian Ellis, rh Michael Johnson, rh Boris Penrose, John Walker, Sir Charles Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Johnson, Dr Caroline Philp, Chris Walker, Mr Robin Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnson, Gareth Pincher, rh Christopher Wallace, rh Mr Ben Eustice, rh George Johnston, David Poulter, Dr Dan Wallis, Dr Jamie Evans, Dr Luke Jones, Andrew Pow, Rebecca Warman, Matt Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, rh Mr David Prentis, Victoria Watling, Giles Everitt, Ben Jones, Fay Pritchard, rh Mark Webb, Suzanne Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Quin, Jeremy Whately, Helen Farris, Laura Jupp, Simon Quince, Will Wheeler, Mrs Heather Fell, Simon Kawczynski, Daniel Raab, rh Dominic Whittaker, Craig Fletcher, Katherine Kearns, Alicia Randall, Tom Whittingdale, rh Mr John Fletcher, Mark Keegan, Gillian Redwood, rh John Wiggin, Bill Fletcher, Nick Knight, rh Sir Greg Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Wild, James Ford, Vicky Knight, Julian Richards, Nicola Williams, Craig Foster, Kevin Kruger, Danny Richardson, Angela Williamson, rh Gavin Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Roberts, Rob Wood, Mike Frazer, rh Lucy Lamont, John Robertson, Mr Laurence Wright, rh Jeremy Freeman, George Largan, Robert Ross, Douglas Young, Jacob Freer, Mike Latham, Mrs Pauline Rowley, Lee Zahawi, Nadhim Fuller, Richard Leadsom, rh Andrea Russell, Dean Fysh, Mr Marcus Leigh, rh Sir Edward Rutley, David Tellers for the Ayes: Garnier, Mark Levy, Ian Sambrook, Gary Maria Caulfield and Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewer, Andrew Saxby, Selaine Tom Pursglove Gibb, rh Nick Lewis, rh Brandon Gibson, Peter Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian NOES Gideon, Jo Logan, Mark Abbott, rh Ms Diane Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Glen, John Longhi, Marco Abrahams, Debbie Amesbury, Mike Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lopez, Julia Gove, rh Michael Lopresti, Jack Ali, Rushanara Amess, Sir David Graham, Richard Lord, Mr Jonathan Ali, Tahir Anderson, Fleur 283 Fire Safety Bill 27 APRIL 2021 Fire Safety Bill 284

Ansell, Caroline Farry, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Robinson, Mary Antoniazzi, Tonia Ferrier, Margaret McCartney, Jason Rodda, Matt Ashworth, rh Jonathan Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Rosindell, Andrew Barker, Paula Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Baron, Mr John Foy, Mary Kelly McDonnell, rh John Saville Roberts, rh Liz Beckett, rh Margaret Furniss, Gill McFadden, rh Mr Pat Shah, Naz Begum, Apsana Gale, rh Sir Roger McGinn, Conor Shannon, Jim Benn, rh Hilary Gardiner, Barry McGovern, Alison Sharma, Mr Virendra Betts, Mr Clive Gill, Preet Kaur McKinnell, Catherine Sheerman, Mr Barry Blackman, Bob Girvan, Paul McMahon, Jim Siddiq, Tulip Blake, Olivia Glindon, Mary McMorrin, Anna Slaughter, Andy Blomfield, Paul Green, Chris McPartland, Stephen Smith, Cat Bottomley, Sir Peter Green, rh Damian McVey, rh Esther Smith, Jeff Brabin, Tracy Green, Kate Mearns, Ian Smith, Nick Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Greenwood, Lilian Miliband, rh Edward Smith, Royston Brennan, Kevin Greenwood, Margaret Mishra, Navendu Smyth, Karin Brown, Ms Lyn Griffith, Nia Moran, Layla Sobel, Alex Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gwynne, Andrew Morden, Jessica Spellar, rh John Bryant, Chris Haigh, Louise Morgan, Stephen Starmer, rh Keir Buck, Ms Karen Hamilton, Fabian Morris, Anne Marie Stevens, Jo Burgon, Richard Hammond, Stephen Morris, Grahame Stone, Jamie Butler, Dawn Hanna, Claire Murray, Ian Streeting, Wes Byrne, Ian Hardy, Emma Murray, James Sultana, Zarah Byrne, rh Liam Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nandy, Lisa Tami, rh Mark Cadbury, Ruth Harris, Carolyn Neill, Sir Robert Tarry, Sam Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hayes, Helen Nichols, Charlotte Thomas, Gareth Campbell, Mr Gregory Healey, rh John Nokes, rh Caroline Thomas-Symonds, rh Nick Carden, Dan Hendrick, Sir Mark Norris, Alex Thornberry, rh Emily Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hillier, Meg Offord, Dr Matthew Timms, rh Stephen Chamberlain, Wendy Hobhouse, Wera Olney, Sarah Trickett, Jon Champion, Sarah Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Onwurah, Chi Chishti, Rehman Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Oppong-Asare, Abena Tugendhat, Tom Clark, Feryal Hollern, Kate Osamor, Kate Turner, Karl Colburn, Elliot Hollobone, Mr Philip Osborne, Kate Twigg, Derek Cooper, Daisy Hopkins, Rachel Owatemi, Taiwo Twist, Liz Cooper, Rosie Howarth, rh Sir George Owen, Sarah Vaz, rh Valerie Cooper, rh Yvette Hunt, Tom Paisley, Ian Warburton, David Corbyn, rh Jeremy Huq, Dr Rupa Peacock, Stephanie Webbe, Claudia Coyle, Neil Hussain, Imran Pennycook, Matthew West, Catherine Creasy, Stella Jardine, Christine Perkins, Mr Toby Western, Matt Cruddas, Jon Jarvis, Dan Phillips, Jess Whitehead, Dr Alan Cryer, John Johnson, rh Dame Diana Phillipson, Bridget Whitley, Mick Cummins, Judith Johnson, Kim Pollard, Luke Whittome, Nadia Cunningham, Alex Jones, Darren Powell, Lucy Williams, Hywel Daby, Janet Jones, Gerald Qureshi, Yasmin Wilson, Munira Davey, rh Ed Jones, rh Mr Kevan Rayner, rh Angela Wilson, rh Sammy David, Wayne Jones, Ruth Reed, Steve Winter, Beth Davies, Geraint Jones, Sarah Rees, Christina Wragg, Mr William Davies, Philip Kane, Mike Reeves, Ellie Yasin, Mohammad Davies-Jones, Alex Keeley, Barbara Reeves, Rachel Zeichner, Daniel Davis, rh Mr David Kendall, Liz Reynolds, Jonathan De Cordova, Marsha Khan, Afzal Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Tellers for the Noes: Debbonaire, Thangam Kinnock, Stephen Rimmer, Ms Marie Bambos Charalambous and Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kyle, Peter Robinson, Gavin Colleen Fletcher Dodds, Anneliese Lake, Ben Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Lammy, rh Mr David Question accordingly agreed to. Doughty, Stephen Lavery, Ian Dowd, Peter Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Lords amendment 4J disagreed to. Dromey, Jack Lewis, Clive Duffield, Rosie Lewis, rh Dr Julian The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Lloyd, Tony proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Eagle, Dame Angela Lockhart, Carla proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Eagle, Maria Long Bailey, Rebecca Eastwood, Colum Lucas, Caroline Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Edwards, Jonathan Lynch, Holly Order No. 83H), That a Committee be appointed to Efford, Clive Madders, Justin drawup Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Mr Khalid to their amendment 4J; Elmore, Chris Mahmood, Shabana Eshalomi, Florence Malhotra, Seema ‘ That Christopher Pincher, Tom Pursglove, Scott Mann Esterson, Bill Maskell, Rachael and Chris Elmore be members of the Committee; Evans, Chris Matheson, Christian Farron, Tim McCabe, Steve That Christopher Pincher be the Chair of the Committee; 285 Fire Safety Bill 27 APRIL 2021 286

That three be the quorum of the Committee. Overseas Operations (Service Personnel That the Committee do withdraw immediately.— and Veterans) Bill (Maggie Throup.) Consideration of Lords message Question agreed to. Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be 3.32 pm reported and communicated to the Lords. Schedule 1 Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): In EXCLUDED OFFENCES FOR THE PURPOSES OF SECTION 6 order to observe social distancing, the Reasons Committee will meet in Committee Room 12. The Minister for Defence People and Veterans (Leo Docherty): I beg to move, Sir Peter Bottomley: On a point of order, Madam That this House agrees with the Lords in their amendment 1R Deputy Speaker. It will be observed that the Government’s but disagrees with the Lords in their amendments 1S, 1T and 1U. majority without the Scots Nats was halved in the last Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): vote. With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: I would not ask for guidance from the Chair in the Government amendments (a) to (c) in lieu of Lords Commons about procedure in the Lords, but were the amendments 1S, 1T and 1U. Lords to send back another amendment different from Government manuscript amendments (d) and (e). the one we have been considering, but trying to take up the points raised in this Chamber, am I right in saying Government motion to disagree with Lords that the Government could table their own amendment amendment 5B. tomorrow, which would absorb the points made in this Leo Docherty: I rise to propose Government amendments House, so that leaseholders are not penalised in the way in lieu of Lords amendments 1S to 1U. I should once they would be if the Bill went through as it is at the again like to thank Lord Robertson for his constructive moment? contributions to debates on this issue. It has always been the case that the measures in the Madam Deputy Speaker: I thank the Father of the Bill will not leave our service personnel at greater risk of House for that point of order. Obviously it will be a investigation by the International Criminal Court. By matter for the Lords and the business managers to say adopting the amendments, we are happy to offer further how it will proceed from here. reassurance and put that beyond any doubt. I should like to reassure hon. Members that service personnel and veterans will continue to receive the benefits of the additional protections provided by part 1 of the Bill in respect of historical alleged criminal offences under the law of England and Wales. Including war crimes in schedule 1 of the Bill will have little practical impact on the protection that the Bill affords our armed forces personnel. The Government are therefore delivering on our commitment to protect our service personnel and veterans from the threat of legal proceedings in connection with historical overseas operations many years after the events in question. We have listened, and we believe that these proposed Government amendments in lieu will satisfy the House of Lords in respect of relevant offences, and they demonstrate our continued commitment to strengthening the rule of law and to maintaining our leading role in upholding the rules-based international system. Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Can the Minister name any country in the world that, 50 years after the event, would prosecute two of its own soldiers for killing a terrorist? Leo Docherty: I am grateful for my right hon. Friend’s intervention. He is, of course, referring to legacy cases in Northern Ireland. I am confident, as I stated at the Dispatch Box last week, that legislation is forthcoming to ensure that our Northern Ireland veterans are protected from any prosecutions in the future. I urge that the Government amendments in lieu be accepted this afternoon. Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on his appointment, but can he explain what he means by the expression “in the future”? There will be a lot of people listening and wondering, “When is it going to affect me?” 287 Overseas Operations (Service 27 APRIL 2021 Overseas Operations (Service 288 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Leo Docherty: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s measures in part 2 of the Bill mean that we should never question. I am confident that, in the near future, legislation again see the industrial scale of civil claims that we saw will be brought before the House from the Northern in the wake of Iraq and Afghanistan. These measures Ireland Office to ensure that we see no more prosecutions are delivering on our manifesto commitment and our of Op Banner veterans, and I know that he will share solemn pledge to protect our armed forces personnel that expectation. and our veterans and to bring to an end the shameful I turn to Lords amendment 5B on the duty of care. cycle of vexatious legal claims brought against our The Government continue to believe that it would not finest asset—our defence people. Together, both parts be practicable or desirable to define a legally binding of the Bill will give greater certainty to service personnel standard of care in relation to the matters referred to in that they will not have the shadow of legal proceedings the amendment. As I said previously, the Ministry of hanging over them for decades after they return from Defence takes very seriously its duty of care for service doing their duty on overseas operations. personnel and veterans. Over the years, we have established We will be clear, of course, that the Bill will not stop a comprehensive range of legal, pastoral, welfare and service personnel being held to the highest standards mental health support for service personnel and veterans, that we would expect from all our armed forces, and and we have come a long way from the early days of our that they will still be subject to domestic and international operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our welfare provisions law when they deploy on overseas operations. Similar, were clearly laid out in the Defence Secretary’s written we will make it clear that the limitation longstops will ministerial statement of 13 April. We are aiming for a also apply to claims by them that are connected with gold standard and are improving our provision all the overseas operations, and emphasise that they should time without the requirement for legislation. bring any civil claims connected with overseas operations within six years of either the event or their date of Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to knowledge. The vast majority have historically already see the Minister in his place. I know that he is committed done so, but it is important that this message is understood to this; I have no doubt whatsoever about that. In my so that, in future, an even greater percentage of service constituency and across Northern Ireland, a number of personnel bring their claims in a timely manner. young service personnel who have served well have In summary, the Bill delivers for our armed forces taken their own life due to post-traumatic stress disorder. and protects our people, but I do not believe that setting Can the Minister assure me that when it comes to legal, a standard for the duty of care in the Bill is necessary or pastoral and mental health support, everything that is desirable, so I urge the House this afternoon to disagree necessary is in the Bill? with Lords amendment 5B.

Leo Docherty: I am grateful for the hon. Member’s John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): Before question. I can reassure him with confidence that we are turning to the amendments before us today, I want to aiming for a gold standard in welfare provision. It does place on record my thanks to all those who have worked not require legislation. It requires constant improvement so hard and so collaboratively on the Bill throughout its and a deep interest across Government, and that is passage, although I have been dismayed at earlier stages what the Ministry of Defence is committed to delivering when Ministers have tried to make the Bill a matter of alongside the Office for Veterans’ Affairs. party politics. I believed from the outset that Members Additionally,we are deeply concerned about the potential on all sides in both Houses wanted the same thing from unintended negative effects of Lords amendment 5B if this legislation—that is, to protect British troops and it is included in the Bill. Notions of pastoral and moral British values. duties are extremely difficult to adequately define, and The Lords have certainly approached the Bill in this there is a real risk that attempting to do so will lead to constructive cross-party manner, and I want to thank more, rather than less, litigation and greater uncertainty in particular those on the Labour Lords Front for our armed forces people. We are also concerned Bench: Lords Tunnicliffe, Touhig and Falconer, and that, as investigations and allegations arise and often Lord Robertson for his tireless work on part 1 of the occur on operations, the amendment might have the Bill, which the Minister has acknowledged. I also want unintended consequence of undermining our operational to thank Lord Hope for his convincing arguments on effectiveness. the European convention on human rights, Lord Dannatt The Government do agree with Lord Dannatt on the for his leadership of the duty of care amendment we are need to set out clearly the benefits of the Bill to the considering this afternoon, and Lords Stirrup and Boyce armed forces community.He has asked for a commitment for their experience, their wisdom and their backing for that the Government will communicate the measures of all the Lords amendments that were sent to this House. the Bill down the chain of command. I am, of course, I also want to thank the Minister’s colleague, Baroness delighted to give that assurance now. We will ensure Goldie, and indeed the new Minister himself for their that all service personnel understand the positive effects similarly constructive approach. of the Bill and the legal protection it affords them. We will explain how the measures in the Bill are beneficial Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I agree with to individual service personnel who have deployed or my right hon. Friend’s comments about their lordships, will deploy on overseas operations. but does he agree that if some of the amendments that Part 1 of the Bill will reduce the number and length were tabled in Committee had been adopted, the Lords of criminal investigations, and our armed forces personnel would not have had to redo the work on the Bill? Is he should be reassured that the unique context of overseas as disappointed as I am that the Minister at the time operations will be taken into account when criminal would not take into consideration any amendments allegations against them are being investigated. The longstop in Committee? 289 Overseas Operations (Service 27 APRIL 2021 Overseas Operations (Service 290 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill John Healey: My right hon. Friend is right. Last week MOD, with no legal, pastoral or mental health support. when we debated the first set of Lords amendments, I Major Bob Campbell made that point so powerfully described the Minister’s predecessor, the hon. Member from his own dreadful experience in evidence to the for Plymouth, Moor View (JohnnyMercer), as a “roadblock Public Bill Committee, as did many others. The most to reason” on this Bill. Unfortunately, that has meant senior figures in the House of Lords believe that this that more work was done in the Lords, and that the duty of care is required. I have to say to the Minister deep flaws in the Bill have not all yet been fixed. So this that talk of a “gold standard” simply highlights the is a Bill that in many ways fails to do what it set out to gap between what Ministers say and what veterans do; it fails to do what it says on the tin. Finally, before I experience. move on to talk about the amendments—which I am Secondly, the Minister has said again today that the sure you wish me to do, Mr Deputy Speaker—I want to duty of care standard, if not carefully drafted, could make sure that I thank the Bill team in the Ministry of end up being a blanket approach. He has argued that Defence and the Bill teams and Officers of both Houses there could be difficulties in defining the duty, but it for their advice, their professionalism and their hard would be for the MOD itself to draw up and define that work on the Bill. duty of care standard. That cannot be beyond the We welcome the Government’s acceptance of Lords several thousand civil servants in MOD Main Building. amendment 1R, which excludes from the Bill’s five-year The Lords amendment gives the principle a tight focus presumption against prosecution all war crimes covered on those forces personnel or veterans who are subject to by articles 6, 7 and 8 of the Rome statute, which of investigation and litigation. course set up the International Criminal Court and Thirdly,the Minister said, as his colleague did yesterday, applies the Geneva conventions, which were very that this is somehow likely to lead to an increase in much Britain’s brainchild under Attlee and then Churchill litigation. If that were the case, it would of course be after the second world war. litigation against the MOD,not individual service personnel, The Government have rightly followed through today and the Bill is supposed to protect armed forces personnel, on the principle that Ministers conceded last week on not the MOD. torture, genocide and crimes against humanity, because not excluding the full range of crimes falling within the Fourthly,the Minister said, as his colleague did yesterday, jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court would that the duty could have an impact on operations during damage Britain’s international standing, including that conflict, and could have unintended consequences. I of our armed forces, and lay open our armed forces to really feel that it is a stretch to imagine a duty of care, the risk of being hauled before the ICC. The Government’s with impartial legal advice and pastoral support, interfering acceptance of that amendment and its consequentials, with operations or the chain of command. If Ministers to give full effect to the Lords’ intent from last week, is really believe that to be the case, they need to spell out welcome. We have worked hard for it, and I am sure that those concerns. the move will be welcomed across the House. The former Chief of the General Staff, Lord Dannatt, who led the British Army in Iraq and Afghanistan and 3.45 pm served in Bosnia and Kosovo, is satisfied with the Lords On the argument that the Minister made for disagreeing amendment and does not share those concerns. I urge to Lords amendment 5B on the duty of care, this Tory MPs who are ready to troop through the voting legislation, as I said a moment ago, is still very far from Lobby this afternoon with their Whips to think for doing what it says on the tin to protect British forces themselves on this and heed the warning of Lord Dannatt, personnel serving overseas from vexatious litigation who yesterday said, and repeat investigations. It still fails to incorporate a “when this new Bill passes into law it will singularly fail to provide duty of care for forces personnel who are faced with the protection that serving and veteran members of the Armed allegations, investigations and litigation, and the Forces believe it should provide.”—[Official Report, House of Government’s amendments in lieu will knock out this Lords, 26 April 2021; Vol. 811, c. 2109.] important and valuable amendment that the Lords have We are disappointed that the Government will not sent back to us. rethink this proposal today, but we are determined to Led by Lord Dannatt, and still heavily backed by pursue it further. I encourage the new Minister to look Cross-Bench and cross-party support, the Lords voted hard at it before we return to the Armed Forces Bill. by another large majority of 69 yesterday to return Finally, this version of the duty of care amendment amendment 5B to us. It is more practical and more gives greater emphasis to support during investigations. flexible, and it is a more tightly focused duty of care. I Although Lord Thomas did not press his amendment have to say to the Minister that the Government’s on investigations to a vote yesterday, I remind the arguments to defend their position become more flaky Minister that the purpose of this Bill is to protect and more flimsy as we get deeper into ping-pong, and our forces personnel serving in conflicts overseas from as they rely more on their colleagues following the vexatious legal claims and repeat investigations. This is Whips through the voting Lobby without thinking for a long-running problem. It has been a problem under themselves. successive Governments, but this Bill does not fix it Let me take each of the arguments that the Minister because it is lopsided legislation that deals only with this afternoon, and his colleague Baroness Goldie yesterday, prosecutions and not also with investigations. Quite made against this duty of care amendment. First, Ministers honestly, if this Bill had been on the statute book say that this comprehensive support is already in place after Iraq and Afghanistan, it would have made no and routinely offered, yet veterans faced with investigation difference to more than 99% of the 4,000-plus cases or litigation consistently say that they are cut adrift by where our service personnel were subject to allegations their chain of command and abandoned entirely by the and investigations. 291 Overseas Operations (Service 27 APRIL 2021 Overseas Operations (Service 292 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Mr Kevan Jones: May I also say to my right hon. all parties, not just from this House but from both Friend that it will not in the future either, because it will Houses, and not just from Parliament but from all the not, as the Minister said, stop vexatious claims coming range of outside organisations that together have been forward, because they will have to be investigated? There the chorus of criticism about so much in this Bill that is is a huge hole in this Bill, which the former Minister still left undone but will be done in future. refused to accept in Committee, about trying to case manage investigations, so people will still be investigated. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I inform the There is nothing in this Bill to say that they will not be House that the knife falls at 4.32 pm and we have nine investigated, so it does not do what it says on the tin and speakers, plus the Minister to respond. That gives hardly it would be dishonest to people to suggest otherwise. any time, so can I implore those contributing either remotely or physically please to use self-discipline? With John Healey: My right hon. Friend is right. I have nobody specifically in mind, I call David Davis. described it as the big gap in this legislation. It is a big flaw in the Bill. We may not succeed this time around, Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con) but we will certainly return to it in the Armed Forces [V]: Thank you for the hint, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will Bill, which I will come on to. The proposals before us in confine myself to issues around Lords amendment 1R this amendment are simple, flexible, tried and tested in in order to limit what I have to say. civilian law, and backed by all the leading military and Last week’s concessions from the Government on the legal experts in the other place. matters relating to amendment 1R were long overdue. I urge the Minister this afternoon to confirm what he With their tabling of the amendments removing genocide, hinted at last week, and what his colleague, Baroness torture and crimes against humanity, some of the most Goldie, said she would not stand in the way of yesterday. egregious errors in the Bill were corrected, which is why The Secretary of State made an offer to me in conversation I voted in favour of the Government amendment last last week to formally ask Sir Richard Henriques to week. However,as I warned on Wednesday,that amendment examine this proposal as part of his current review so left one serious matter unresolved—war crimes are still that it can be considered alongside other recommendations subject to a presumption against prosecution. Thankfully, from that review for incorporation into the Armed further representations from Lord Robertson and others Forces Bill. The Minister’s predecessor said at the very have led the Government now to rectify this oversight outset of this Bill’s proceedings in this House, on Second with the amendment we are considering today.I welcome Reading back in November: that further concession. In government, as I said last “The right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne raises week, it is always difficult to change your mind once time and again the issue of the investigations, but he knows that you set out on a specific course of action, but the they are for the forthcoming armed forces Bill and will be addressed Government are to be commended for doing just that in there.”—[Official Report, 3 November 2020; Vol. 683, c. 258.] the case of this Bill. In particular, I again commend the Of course, they are not, but we will ensure that they are. new Minister for his extremely rational approach to this I say to the Minister that I hope we will be able to work and using the time that ping-pong has given him to together constructively on that, in a way that proved so good effect. difficult with his predecessor. The original drafting of the Bill created a situation whereby the UK’s standing on the international stage Mr Jones: But it was not for lack of trying. I moved would have been threatened. Our reputation as an upholder three amendments in Committee, and not only were of the rule of law would have been tarnished and we they fiercely resisted by the hon. Member for Plymouth, would have run the risk of potentially having our troops Moor View (Johnny Mercer), but there was no explanation hauled before the International Criminal Court. That of how and when in future legislation anything around would have been a truly shameful outcome. The ICC is investigations would be addressed, even though my usually in the business of prosecuting tyrants and torturers, right hon. Friend is right that the former Minister had not the soldiers of law-abiding democracies, let alone given a commitment that investigations would be addressed one with the United Kingdom’sreputation. The concessions in the Armed Forces Bill. last week would still have left our soldiers open to charges of war crimes. Tobe clear,these are not theoretical John Healey: Yes indeed. My right hon. Friend has concerns of myself or other Members either here or in worked as hard as anyone in this House on this Bill and the other place. When I asked the chief prosecutor of I am really grateful to him for that. He has been part of the ICC for her consideration of the Government’s what the Opposition, certainly, are now set to do, which concessions on this point, she said in her response to me is to forge a consensus on the changes needed to the Bill last Friday that so that it better serves the interests of British troops, “any gap between the scope of coverage in the excludable offences British justice and Britain’s standing in the world. I under the proposed legislation and conduct which might otherwise believe that we, as the official Opposition, and we as a constitute a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court would House, have a duty to try to make this Bill fit for risk…rendering relevant cases concerning such conduct admissible purpose as the new legal framework for this country before the ICC.” when we have in future to commit our servicemen and In other words, the Bill in its state last week would have women to conflict overseas. It falls short of that test at still left our soldiers open to prosecution. present. We will not let those matters rest. Today’s amendment means that torture, war crimes, This is a classic case of a Government who will win crimes against humanity and genocide will all now, their legislation but have lost the arguments. When that quite rightly, be excluded from the presumption against is the case, the Government will find that those arguments prosecution contained in the Bill. That is to be welcomed. come back again, not just from the Opposition but from On that basis, I am entirely supportive of the Government 293 Overseas Operations (Service 27 APRIL 2021 Overseas Operations (Service 294 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill [Mr David Davis] prosecution, and we have seen that in evidence to the Armed Forces Bill Committee, of which I am a member. and they will get my vote today. However, I will just Finally, if that support is already there and it is not make a comment en passant relating to what the right working, we need to strengthen it through statutory hon. Members for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) requirements. I wonder whether the Minister and the and for North Durham (Mr Jones) said. The Ministry Government are willing to do that. of Defence now needs to take the advice of people like former Judge Advocate General Blackett, and others, Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): The distinct purpose and improve its own investigation system to stop soldiers of the Bill is to provide legal protection to military from going through the same problems again in future. personnel serving overseas on operations—that is what The problem has always rested, in part, within the walls it is about. It is all about stopping vexatious prosecutions, of the Ministry of Defence, so improvements to the often generated, for large sums, by unscrupulous lawyers. investigation process must be made. Our troops need to In short, lawfare, such as we saw a few years ago, should be reassured that if they ever face allegations of wrongdoing be a thing of the past, but is it totally gone? I wish to they will be investigated fairly, rapidly, and without the explain a little of the worries I have. threat of constant reinvestigation. Only then will our I am pleased that the Government have now decided service personnel be properly protected from vexatious to include war crimes alongside torture, crimes against and damaging litigation, and only then will this Bill and humanity, genocide and sexual crimes, such as a rape, as its associated policy have properly achieved its aim. being not subject to a statutory presumption against prosecution. That is good news, because, as others have 4 pm said, it might stop our service personnel being dragged Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) before the ICC in the future. So we must now prosecute (SNP)[V]: May I first take this opportunity to congratulate war crimes like any other crime, but might I suggest a the Minister on their new position? It is always good to slight spanner in the works here? see Dochertys in very lofty positions, even ones that are I have seen such crimes in my time in Bosnia, in lofty in the wrong direction. 1992-93—obviously, I should emphasise, they were not The Bill was supposed to tackle vexatious claims, yet carried out by British soldiers. I have also given evidence the evidence received, both written and in Committee, in the International Criminal Tribunal for the former pointed to the problems arising from flawed investigations. Yugoslavia, where such crimes were tried—this is now Nothing in the Bill improves service justice or tackles done by the ICC. I gave evidence in trials where the repeated investigations. The Bill was an opportunity to guilty were sent to prison for between 15 and 45 years. I overhaul the system, but that is an opportunity now wonder exactly what crimes are not subject to a statute lost. Unless the Government establish proper structures of limitation. What crimes creep through? As far as I and processes for investigations, including independent can see, most of the definitions allow us to decide investigators, personnel will remain vulnerable to repeated exactly what happens. I am quite worried that the investigations and indeed investigations by the International Minister might not be able to identify a crime carried Criminal Court. out that we could prosecute without a statute of limitation. Still, the Government have been forced into significant Sexual crimes can be prosecuted anyway under Navy, concessions in other areas of the Bill because of the work Army and Air Force Acts. Service personnel can never of Members in the other place. The Government agreed be ordered to carry out such acts by superior officers. last week that genocide, crimes against humanity and Effectively, the Bill accepts and confirms crimes under torture would be excluded from legal safeguards in the the Sexual Offences Acts 1956 and 2003. The Bill states Bill. The threat of a further possible defeat at the hands that unless there is compelling evidence, service personnel of peers has, I am glad to hear, forced the Government cannot be charged with crimes committed more than also to exclude war crimes from the presumption against five years ago, unless of course they have taken part in prosecution. Although we on the SNP Benches recognise war crimes, torture, crimes against humanity or genocide, this change, it should not have taken until the last gasp which are offences without a time limit. As I mentioned of this Bill for the Government to make it. earlier, I am slightly worried about what is left. Of In their refusal to listen to evidence presented in course I go along with what we have done, but I am Committee and to the calls of Members of this House, slightly worried that many crimes can evade the provisions the Government, at least from our perspective, have and that people could be done on these classifications. profoundly damaged the UK and Parliament’s reputation On service personnel who have suffered some form of internationally. We also see that the final version of the physical or mental injury, the limit is broadly six years Bill retains the six-year longstop on civil claims against after the event. In short, they must have started proceedings the MOD, denying members of the armed forces justice against, say, the Ministry of Defence within that period. in valid civil claims.Indeed, it will significantly disadvantage However, the Bill allows for the possibility of someone those who have served abroad. The House should be bringing forward proceedings where, for example, they making it easier for personnel to make claims when the have PTSD but had not discovered it, even if they are MOD has been negligent, but this legislation seems to affected 20 years later. In such as case, they will have six be crafted especially to protect the MOD and not the years from the point when they discover they are affected personnel themselves. or when they are diagnosed to bring a claim against the Lords amendment 5B ensures care and support for MOD. I reckon that is fair enough. The MOD is certainly personnel involved in investigations, and every Member not trying to disadvantage its own. of this place should be supporting it. The House knows I end by reminding everyone of a point the Minister from discussions with personnel that the structures made. The Government are still committed to bringing currently in place are not working for those facing forward a Bill to protect veterans in Northern Ireland in 295 Overseas Operations (Service 27 APRIL 2021 Overseas Operations (Service 296 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill the same way as those who have served overseas. If they I would really appreciate it if, in summing up, the do not, our servicemen and servicewomen will have two Minister could expand on and clarify whythe Government’s levels of protection: those like me who served in Northern stubborn objection to this duty of care has remained. Ireland will have a lesser degree of protection than There still remains nothing in the Bill that will solve those who have served overseas. To that end, I have the problem of repeated investigations. Without Lords always believed and supported the suggestion by the amendment 5B, there is nothing in the Bill that will Defence Committee, on which I served several years afford our forces personnel and veterans a duty of care ago, that the way forward in Northern Ireland is for when they are undergoing such awful investigations. there to be a qualified statute of limitations unless I remain of the view that this Bill is a hurried and compelling new evidence has been produced. I therefore inadequate piece of legislation that has never matched hope that very soon the Government will bring forward up to the rhetoric surrounding it. No one is in disagreement legislation to stop possible unequal treatment of our that greater legal protections for armed forces personnel service personnel. and veterans serving overseas were needed, but the Government have drafted legislation that makes the Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab) [V]: It problem worse, leaves our service personnel and is a pleasure to follow the right hon. and respected veterans at a disadvantage and without crucial support, Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart). and fails on its promise to those who served in Northern It is welcome that the Government have eventually Ireland. accepted that war crimes should be excluded from the Our service personnel and veterans deserve the very Bill. However,that it took this long for them to understand best for risking their all for us; I echo the pleas made by the grave implications of their proposals remains very my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and worrying. What remains of concern is the stubborn Dearne (John Healey) that, in today’s vote, Government refusal to introduce a duty of care to our service personnel. Members show that they believe this too by joining us I am still at a total loss as to why the Government would in the Lobby. reject and oppose care standards for service personnel and veterans involved in investigations or litigations arising from overseas operations. James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): I stated on Second I was not comforted by the Minister’s words last Reading that this is a good Bill and my view remains week—neither, indeed, was I just now—when he assured exactly the same. As we know, the other place wanted us that, torture, genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity excluded from relevant offences. We disagreed initially, “The Ministry of Defence takes very seriously its duty of care for service personnel and veterans, for whom there already exists but amendments 1A to 1Q from the MOD, whereby a comprehensive range of legal, pastoral, welfare and mental breaches of the Geneva convention and genocide are health support”, excluded from the offences, are very welcome. This bearing in mind the testimonies from those in my own Government have sent the clear message that they stand constituency and those who gave evidence to the Bill against all breaches of human rights in conflict. Committee of how inaccessible and ineffective that My stance throughout this whole process has been support can be. I was even less assured after reading the very clear. The supposition from some quarters that media comments made by the hon. Member for Plymouth, British troops are somehow predisposed to committing Moor View (Johnny Mercer), who said that help is war crimes wantonly and that the UK has somehow available, yet it is hard to understand it and given them a “get out of jail free” card is absurd. The “hard to understand where it is”, MOD already has one of the most effective and robust and that promoting where it is and how to get to it was service justice systems in the world. The presumption simply not part of this Government’s agenda. against prosecution also in no way affects the UK’s ability to conduct investigations and prosecutions The Minister also claimed that the Lords amendment into any crime, including war crimes; it is a high threshold, carries a risk of not a bar. However, as Baroness Goldie stated in “unintended consequences, including a possible increase in litigation, the other place only yesterday, there was significant which would be contrary to the Bill’s objectives.” concern that through exclusion of serious crimes, such As the noble Lord Dannatt said in the other place, that as sexual offences, this Bill would run the risk of is simply an empty argument because, under the undermining the work that the Government have put amendment, the Ministry of Defence has the opportunity in to push the UK as a force for good around the world. to draw up its own statement of a duty of care standard I agree. To be worthy of its pre-eminence, I concede and act within that. I reiterate my comments from last that this House should absolutely agree to Lords week—that to claim that the duty of care proposals amendment 1R. would be better placed in the Armed Forces Bill is not Lord Dannatt’s revision to Lords amendment 5, acceptable. We are debating and voting today on this Lords amendment 5B, is also worthy of consideration, Bill; it is not right for MPs to accept gaps in legislation but I want to point out at this juncture that service on the promise that it may or may not be rectified in personnel are entitled to legal support at public expense future legislation. when they face criminal allegations and civil claims. The The Bill’s objective is to offer more protection and Armed Forces Bill brings the armed forces covenant into support to service personnel and veterans, so how can statute, and there is unrivalled medical support, including an amendment that offers just that protection and mental health support, available to all personnel and support be, as the Minister said last week, veterans. I agree, again, with the Government’s continuing “contrary to the Bill’s objectives”?—[Official Report, 21 April 2021; stance that the amendment is not necessary, and I will Vol. 692, c. 1058.] vote with the Government on all occasions today. 297 Overseas Operations (Service 27 APRIL 2021 Overseas Operations (Service 298 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill 4.15 pm the fact that he was on the side of trying to stop people being investigated, when he had been in a position to do Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) something about it. I think of him as being a bit like an (LD) [V]: I shall try to be brief. Last week, I spoke actor in a play who has been sat in the audience watching, about what I see as British values, which have been rather than taking part. mentioned in the debate.I therefore welcome the concession on war crimes, because any erosion of how we and the Without investigation, the Bill is flawed. I have written rest of the world perceive our British values would be to the Minister: he needs to ensure that investigations deeply damaging to this country’s reputation. are put in the Armed Forces Bill, because without that, despite the protections that have been claimed today, As others have said, I believe there is still work to be servicemen and women will be watching our proceedings, done on the duty of care, and I flag up its connection thinking that they have more protection than they have. with mental health. When I talk to constituents who They will still be investigated if allegations are made. have served Queen and country bravely, there is a fear There is an opportunity now, with the Armed Forces that they will be abandoned if they find themselves in Bill, to remedy that. the position of being accused. I hear what other Members have said about the legal help that they would be Part 2 of this Bill should simply have been scrapped. I afforded, but there is still a fear out there. am sorry, but the idea that we should all have Limitation Act rights and yet members of our armed forces should It would be churlish of me not to say thank you to the not—that we should take those away from them—is just new Minister. Last week I said I did not know him very not good enough. A Bill that is supposed to give things well, but what I have seen during one week gives me to our armed forces has been taking things away from much more confidence in him. His predecessor was them. Part 2 will be challenged in court; only the referred to as a roadblock, but I think the thoughtful lawyers will benefit from it. and conciliatory attitude shown by the new Minister, whose fingerprints I rather suspect are on the war I welcome the change on war crimes because, like crimes concession, is very useful indeed. many across the House, I was concerned about our international reputation. I fully support Lord Dannatt’s I want to talk about the process. The Bill we see today amendment; I believe we should support anything that is a lot better than the one we looked at last November. helps servicemen and women who are going through The cross-party work in the other place is deeply significant. such a process. Many Tory peers have been instrumental in bringing forward amendments. In yet another place, known as The Bill claimed to do a lot but does very little. It is the Scottish Parliament, I knew Baroness Goldie in disappointing. It could have been vastly improved, or another incarnation. I came to respect that good lady’s just ignored altogether and incorporated into the Armed thoughtful and judicious approach to matters, so I am Forces Bill. There is an opportunity to put right what is not surprised to see her playing the role she does in the not in this Bill when the Armed Forces Bill passes other place. We belong to different parties, but I recognise through the House. I know that the Minister is open to quality where I see it. discussions about that, but I urge him to ensure that We have a Bill that is better than it was. In my that happens, because without that, people will still be opinion and that of my party, the jury is out on the duty investigated; they will still go through the agony that of care in mental health, but the way we have improved this Bill was intended to stop. We all sympathised with the Bill is instructive to all of us. There is possibly a that intention. It clearly will not be achieved in the Bill’s message to Her Majesty’sGovernment here.The reputation present form. of the UK Parliament depends on the quality of the legislation that is enacted. Where there is co-operation Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I also warmly across the House and between both Houses to make the welcome the further concession that the Minister has best legislation, that is ideal. I very much hope that the announced. The Bill will now exclude all the offences Government will look at the process by which we came for which service personnel could be summoned before to be where we are today, learn from it and apply that the International Criminal Court. That has now fixed technique to other legislation as it comes before us. I the worst of the problems that many have been anxious reiterate my thanks to the new Minister. about during debates on the Bill. It would be helpful to understand why it has proved Mr Deputy Speaker: I will call the Minister at 4.27 pm, so hard for the Government to realise how awful what and the debate will finish at 4.32 pm. they were proposing was. No Minister wants to give armed forces carte blanche to commit torture, genocide Mr Kevan Jones: The hon. Member for Bracknell and war crimes, and yet it has required the most (James Sunderland) said that this was a good Bill—no, extraordinary struggle to stop the Government doing it is not. It is a bad Bill, and it is an unnecessary Bill. All exactly that. The noble Lord Robertson—I welcome the of this could have been done within the Armed Forces Minister’s tribute to him—introducing his amendment Bill that is going through Parliament, but the Government in the other place, said: chose, for their own reasons, to put forward this Bill. It “Maybe after a lifetime in politics I was affected by some does not get to the central point of the issue, which is uncharacteristic naivety in thinking that the Government, faced around investigations. They are completely absent from by almost universal and expert opposition on this aspect of the this Bill and currently absent from the Armed Forces Bill, would by now have changed their mind.” [Official Report, Bill. They were resisted by the hon. Member for Plymouth, House of Lords, 13 April 2021; Vol. 811, c. 1190.] Moor View (Johnny Mercer) in this Bill and in the Yet they ploughed on until yesterday. Perhaps it was Armed Forces Bill. It galls me that yesterday he was indeed the change of Minister that averted disaster, and standing outside a court in Northern Ireland, trumpeting with others I congratulate him on his achievement in a 299 Overseas Operations (Service 27 APRIL 2021 Overseas Operations (Service 300 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill short time, but if he can, in winding up, shed some I usually say that I will not rehearse previous speeches, further light on what on earth has been going on, the but this, I believe, bears repeating. Veterans who served House would be grateful. in uniform and operated legally with honour, great I strongly support what my right hon. Friend the courage and great fortitude deserve to be treated with Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) said equality. I say to the Government: please do the right on duty of care and investigations. I hope that we will thing and bring legislation on this issue forward in the come back to them soon if the duty of care amendment Queen’s Speech in May. Let us show that our moral and is lost this afternoon. I warmly welcome the progress on legal obligation extends to those who have served on the Bill in the past few days and would be grateful for every occasion and from every region of this great any light the Minister can shed on what has been nation of ours, the United Kingdom of Great Britain going on. and Northern Ireland.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I call Jim Shannon Leo Docherty: I am grateful for all Members’ —Please resume your seat no later than 4.27 pm. contributions.I thank the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) for his constructive tone. I am happy to confirm that I will communicate to Justice Jim Shannon: It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I Henriques the concerns that he has raised. Of course, it echo the comments by others in relation to those who is an independent review, but we would be happy for served in Northern Ireland and the protection that we Justice Henriques to consider those concerns within the need. The Minister has responded on that very positively, scope of his review. but we also need a timescale for that to happen. In the short time that I have, I want to refer to the We heard contributions from my right hon. Friend legal, pastoral and mental health support provided to the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) service personnel who are involved in investigations or and the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). litigation arising from overseas operations. I am aware I look forward to receiving the right hon. Gentleman’s of this because I am aware of a young fellow in my letter, and I will give it due consideration and respond in constituency who served overseas and fought with many due course. We also heard contributions from the hon. demons in his own life. I am not blaming the MOD for Members for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck), for it, but I ask the question: could we do more? Lords Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) amendment 5B on the duty of care to service personnel and for West Dunbartonshire (Martin Docherty-Hughes), could give them the level of care that is earned from as well as my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member putting the uniform on. Subsection (6) of the new for Beckenham (Bob Stewart); I thank him for bringing clause inserted by the amendment states: his personal experience into the debate. “In subsection (1) “duty of care” means both the legal and We also heard from the hon. Member for Strangford moral obligation of the Ministry of Defence to ensure the wellbeing (Jim Shannon). Returning to the question of Northern of service personnel.” Ireland veterans, I would like to be clear. I mentioned When it comes to mental health and the effects on earlier that Her Majesty’s Government intend to bring people’s families and lives, our moral obligation should forward legislation in relation to Northern Ireland. The and must be to go the extra mile. That is why I support House will understand that I cannot comment on any the premise of the amendment. It reminds us of our ongoing legal matters, but I will give the reassurance moral obligation, which is as important as our legal that we are absolutely committed to delivering on our obligation, to those who serve in uniform. commitments to veterans of Op Banner as soon as possible. A five-year programme of study has been carried out in tandem with Queen’sUniversity.The results show—and In closing, I would like to put on record my sincere I want to have this on the record, in Hansard—that thanks to the Bill team, who have been first class more than a third of all military veterans in Northern throughout, and in particular to the Bill manager,Richard Ireland are likely to be suffering from post-traumatic Hartell. It is to their great credit that we have brought stress disorder. Those are the stats, according to this the Bill to this point. If the House accepts the Government study. More than 1,300 veterans responded to the survey, amendments in lieu and rejects Lords amendment 5B, with 36% reporting signs of PTSD and the same number the Bill will allow us to deliver on our manifesto reporting problems with alcohol. commitment—our solemn pledge—to protect our armed forces personnel and our veterans and bring an end to We have many charities in Northern Ireland that help the shameful cycle of vexatious legal claims brought out. I think of Beyond the Battlefield, in particular, against our finest asset: our people. I commend the Bill which reaches out to those whom other charities perhaps to the House. miss; that is not to take away from the importance of other charities.Some of those cases are incredibly complex, Question put and agreed to. and there are lots of issues for not just the individuals but family members. We need to address the duty of Resolved, care, both morally and legally. That this House agrees with the Lords in their This is not helped by the fact that those who served in amendment 1R but disagrees with the Lords in their Northern Ireland continue to see no movement. They amendments 1S, 1T and 1U. seek protection, which is very important to have in Government amendments (a) to (c) made in lieu of place for those who served in Northern Ireland. I know Lords amendments 1S, 1T and 1U. that the Minister has given a commitment, but could he tell us where discussions are with the Secretary of State? Government manuscript amendments (d) and (e) made. 301 Overseas Operations (Service 27 APRIL 2021 Overseas Operations (Service 302 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill After Clause 12 Freer, Mike Knight, rh Sir Greg Fuller, Richard Knight, Julian DUTY OF CARE TO SERVICE PERSONNEL Fysh, Mr Marcus Kruger, Danny Gale, rh Sir Roger Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Motion made, and Question put, That this House Garnier, Mark Lamont, John disagrees with Lords amendment 5B. Ghani, Ms Nusrat Largan, Robert The House divided: Ayes 357, Noes 267. Gibb, rh Nick Latham, Mrs Pauline Gibson, Peter Leadsom, rh Andrea Division No. 279] [4.30 pm Gideon, Jo Leigh, rh Sir Edward Glen, John Levy, Ian AYES Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lewer, Andrew Adams, Nigel Clark, rh Greg Gove, rh Michael Lewis, rh Brandon Afolami, Bim Clarke, Mr Simon Graham, Richard Lewis, rh Dr Julian Afriyie, Adam Clarke, Theo Grant, Mrs Helen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ahmad Khan, Imran Clarke-Smith, Brendan Gray, James Loder, Chris Aiken, Nickie Clarkson, Chris Grayling, rh Chris Logan, Mark Aldous, Peter Cleverly, rh James Green, Chris Longhi, Marco Allan, Lucy Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Green, rh Damian Lopez, Julia Amess, Sir David Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Griffith, Andrew Lopresti, Jack Anderson, Lee Colburn, Elliot Griffiths, Kate Lord, Mr Jonathan Anderson, Stuart Collins, Damian Grundy, James Loughton, Tim Andrew, rh Stuart Costa, Alberto Gullis, Jonathan Mackinlay, Craig Ansell, Caroline Courts, Robert Halfon, rh Robert Mackrory, Cherilyn Argar, Edward Coutinho, Claire Hall, Luke Maclean, Rachel Atherton, Sarah Cox, rh Sir Geoffrey Hammond, Stephen Mak, Alan Atkins, Victoria Crabb, rh Stephen Hancock, rh Matt Malthouse, Kit Bacon, Gareth Crosbie, Virginia Hands, rh Greg Mangnall, Anthony Bacon, Mr Richard Crouch, Tracey Harper, rh Mr Mark Mann, Scott Badenoch, Kemi Daly, James Harrison, Trudy Marson, Julie Bailey, Shaun Davies, David T. C. Hart, Sally-Ann May, rh Mrs Theresa Baillie, Siobhan Davies, Gareth Hart, rh Simon Mayhew, Jerome Baker, Duncan Davies, Dr James Hayes, rh Sir John Maynard, Paul Baker, Mr Steve Davies, Mims Heald, rh Sir Oliver McCartney, Jason Baldwin, Harriett Davies, Philip Heappey, James McCartney, Karl Barclay, rh Steve Davis, rh Mr David Heaton-Harris, Chris McPartland, Stephen Baron, Mr John Davison, Dehenna Henderson, Gordon McVey, rh Esther Baynes, Simon Dinenage, Caroline Henry, Darren Menzies, Mark Bell, Aaron Dines, Miss Sarah Higginbotham, Antony Merriman, Huw Benton, Scott Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hinds, rh Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Beresford, Sir Paul Docherty, Leo Hoare, Simon Millar, Robin Berry, rh Jake Donelan, Michelle Holden, Mr Richard Miller, rh Mrs Maria Bhatti, Saqib Dorries, Ms Nadine Hollinrake, Kevin Milling, rh Amanda Blackman, Bob Double, Steve Hollobone, Mr Philip Mills, Nigel Blunt, Crispin Dowden, rh Oliver Holloway, Adam Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Bone, Mr Peter Doyle-Price, Jackie Holmes, Paul Mohindra, Mr Gagan Bottomley, Sir Peter Drax, Richard Howell, John Moore, Damien Bowie, Andrew Drummond, Mrs Flick Howell, Paul Moore, Robbie Bradley, Ben Duddridge, James Huddleston, Nigel Mordaunt, rh Penny Bradley, rh Karen Duguid, David Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, Anne Marie Brady, Sir Graham Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hughes, Eddie Morris, David Braverman, rh Suella Dunne, rh Philip Hunt, Jane Morris, James Brereton, Jack Eastwood, Mark Hunt, rh Jeremy Morrissey, Joy Bridgen, Andrew Edwards, Ruth Hunt, Tom Morton, Wendy Brine, Steve Ellis, rh Michael Jack, rh Mr Alister Mullan, Dr Kieran Bristow, Paul Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Javid, rh Sajid Mumby-Croft, Holly Britcliffe, Sara Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Murray, Mrs Sheryll Brokenshire, rh James Eustice, rh George Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Browne, Anthony Evans, Dr Luke Jenkinson, Mark Neill, Sir Robert Bruce, Fiona Evennett, rh Sir David Jenkyns, Andrea Nici, Lia Buchan, Felicity Everitt, Ben Jenrick, rh Robert Nokes, rh Caroline Buckland, rh Robert Fabricant, Michael Johnson, rh Boris Norman, rh Jesse Burghart, Alex Farris, Laura Johnson, Dr Caroline O’Brien, Neil Burns, rh Conor Fell, Simon Johnson, Gareth Offord, Dr Matthew Butler, Rob Fletcher, Katherine Johnston, David Opperman, Guy Cairns, rh Alun Fletcher, Mark Jones, Andrew Parish, Neil Carter, Andy Fletcher, Nick Jones, rh Mr David Patel, rh Priti Cartlidge, James Ford, Vicky Jones, Fay Paterson, rh Mr Owen Cash, Sir William Foster, Kevin Jones, Mr Marcus Pawsey, Mark Cates, Miriam Fox, rh Dr Liam Jupp, Simon Penning, rh Sir Mike Chalk, Alex Francois, rh Mr Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Penrose, John Chishti, Rehman Frazer, rh Lucy Kearns, Alicia Percy, Andrew Churchill, Jo Freeman, George Keegan, Gillian Philp, Chris 303 Overseas Operations (Service 27 APRIL 2021 Overseas Operations (Service 304 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Pincher, rh Christopher Stuart, Graham Cherry, Joanna Hobhouse, Wera Poulter, Dr Dan Sturdy, Julian Clark, Feryal Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Pow, Rebecca Sunak, rh Rishi Cooper, Daisy Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Prentis, Victoria Sunderland, James Cooper, Rosie Hollern, Kate Pritchard, rh Mark Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Cooper, rh Yvette Hopkins, Rachel Quin, Jeremy Syms, Sir Robert Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hosie, rh Stewart Quince, Will Thomas, Derek Cowan, Ronnie Howarth, rh Sir George Raab, rh Dominic Throup, Maggie Coyle, Neil Huq, Dr Rupa Randall, Tom Timpson, Edward Crawley, Angela Hussain, Imran Redwood, rh John Tolhurst, Kelly Creasy, Stella Jardine, Christine Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Tomlinson, Justin Cruddas, Jon Jarvis, Dan Richards, Nicola Tomlinson, Michael Cryer, John Johnson, rh Dame Diana Richardson, Angela Tracey, Craig Cummins, Judith Johnson, Kim Roberts, Rob Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Cunningham, Alex Jones, Darren Robertson, Mr Laurence Trott, Laura Daby, Janet Jones, Gerald Robinson, Mary Truss, rh Elizabeth Davey, rh Ed Jones, rh Mr Kevan Rosindell, Andrew Tugendhat, Tom David, Wayne Jones, Ruth Ross, Douglas Vara, Shailesh Davies, Geraint Jones, Sarah Rowley, Lee Vickers, Martin Davies-Jones, Alex Kane, Mike Russell, Dean Vickers, Matt Day, Martyn Keeley, Barbara Rutley, David Villiers, rh Theresa De Cordova, Marsha Kendall, Liz Sambrook, Gary Wakeford, Christian Debbonaire, Thangam Khan, Afzal Saxby, Selaine Walker, Sir Charles Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kinnock, Stephen Scully, Paul Walker, Mr Robin Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kyle, Peter Seely, Bob Wallace, rh Mr Ben Dodds, Anneliese Lake, Ben Selous, Andrew Wallis, Dr Jamie Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Lammy, rh Mr David Shapps, rh Grant Warburton, David Doogan, Dave Lavery, Ian Sharma, rh Alok Warman, Matt Dorans, Allan Law, Chris Shelbrooke, rh Alec Watling, Giles Doughty, Stephen Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Simmonds, David Webb, Suzanne Dowd, Peter Lewis, Clive Skidmore, rh Chris Whately, Helen Dromey, Jack Linden, David Smith, Chloe Wheeler, Mrs Heather Duffield, Rosie Lloyd, Tony Smith, Greg Whittaker, Craig Eagle, Dame Angela Lockhart, Carla Smith, Henry Whittingdale, rh Mr John Eagle, Maria Long Bailey, Rebecca Smith, rh Julian Wiggin, Bill Edwards, Jonathan Lucas, Caroline Smith, Royston Wild, James Efford, Clive Lynch, Holly Solloway, Amanda Williams, Craig Elliott, Julie MacNeil, Angus Brendan Spencer, Dr Ben Williamson, rh Gavin Elmore, Chris Madders, Justin Spencer, rh Mark Wood, Mike Eshalomi, Florence Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stafford, Alexander Wragg, Mr William Esterson, Bill Mahmood, Shabana Stephenson, Andrew Wright, rh Jeremy Evans, Chris Malhotra, Seema Stevenson, Jane Farron, Tim Maskell, Rachael Young, Jacob Stevenson, John Farry, Stephen Matheson, Christian Zahawi, Nadhim Stewart, rh Bob Fellows, Marion Mc Nally, John Stewart, Iain Tellers for the Ayes: Ferrier, Margaret McCabe, Steve Streeter, Sir Gary Maria Caulfield and Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Stride, rh Mel Tom Pursglove Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy NOES Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Furniss, Gill McDonald, Stuart C. Abbott, rh Ms Diane Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gardiner, Barry McDonnell, rh John Abrahams, Debbie Brennan, Kevin Gibson, Patricia McFadden, rh Mr Pat Ali, Rushanara Brock, Deidre Gill, Preet Kaur McGinn, Conor Ali, Tahir Brown, Alan Girvan, Paul McGovern, Alison Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Brown, Ms Lyn Glindon, Mary McKinnell, Catherine Amesbury, Mike Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Grady, Patrick McLaughlin, Anne Anderson, Fleur Bryant, Chris Grant, Peter McMahon, Jim Antoniazzi, Tonia Buck, Ms Karen Green, Kate McMorrin, Anna Ashworth, rh Jonathan Burgon, Richard Greenwood, Lilian Mearns, Ian Bardell, Hannah Butler, Dawn Greenwood, Margaret Miliband, rh Edward Barker, Paula Byrne, Ian Griffith, Nia Mishra, Navendu Beckett, rh Margaret Byrne, rh Liam Gwynne, Andrew Monaghan, Carol Begum, Apsana Cadbury, Ruth Haigh, Louise Moran, Layla Benn, rh Hilary Callaghan, Amy Hamilton, Fabian Morden, Jessica Betts, Mr Clive Cameron, Dr Lisa Hardy, Emma Morgan, Stephen Black, Mhairi Campbell, rh Sir Alan Harman, rh Ms Harriet Morris, Grahame Blackford, rh Ian Campbell, Mr Gregory Harris, Carolyn Murray, Ian Blackman, Kirsty Carden, Dan Hayes, Helen Murray, James Blake, Olivia Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Healey, rh John Nandy, Lisa Blomfield, Paul Chamberlain, Wendy Hendrick, Sir Mark Newlands, Gavin Bonnar, Steven Champion, Sarah Hendry, Drew Nichols, Charlotte Brabin, Tracy Chapman, Douglas Hillier, Meg Nicolson, John 305 Overseas Operations (Service 27 APRIL 2021 Overseas Operations (Service 306 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Norris, Alex Slaughter, Andy Wilson, rh Sammy Zeichner, Daniel O’Hara, Brendan Smith, Alyn Winter, Beth Tellers for the Noes: Olney, Sarah Smith, Cat Wishart, Pete Colleen Fletcher and Onwurah, Chi Smith, Jeff Yasin, Mohammad Bambos Charalambous Oppong-Asare, Abena Smith, Nick Osamor, Kate Smyth, Karin Osborne, Kate Sobel, Alex Question accordingly agreed to. Oswald, Kirsten Spellar, rh John Lords amendment 5B disagreed to. Owatemi, Taiwo Starmer, rh Keir The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Owen, Sarah Stephens, Chris Paisley, Ian Stevens, Jo proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Peacock, Stephanie Stone, Jamie proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Pennycook, Matthew Streeting, Wes Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Perkins, Mr Toby Sultana, Zarah Order No. 83H), That a Committee be appointed to Phillips, Jess Tami, rh Mark drawup Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing Phillipson, Bridget Tarry, Sam to their amendment 5B; Pollard, Luke Thewliss, Alison Powell, Lucy Thomas, Gareth That Leo Docherty, Alan Mak, David T. C. Davies, Qureshi, Yasmin Thomas-Symonds, rh Nick John Healey and Carol Monaghan be members of the Rayner, rh Angela Thompson, Owen Committee; Reed, Steve Thomson, Richard That Leo Docherty be the Chair of the Committee; Rees, Christina Thornberry, rh Emily That three be the quorum of the Committee. Reeves, Ellie Timms, rh Stephen Reeves, Rachel Trickett, Jon That the Committee do withdraw immediately.—(Scott Reynolds, Jonathan Turner, Karl Mann.) Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Twigg, Derek Question agreed to. Rimmer, Ms Marie Twist, Liz Robinson, Gavin Vaz, rh Valerie Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be Rodda, Matt Webbe, Claudia reported and communicated to the Lords. Russell-Moyle, Lloyd West, Catherine Saville Roberts, rh Liz Western, Matt Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): In order to Shah, Naz Whitehead, Dr Alan observe social distancing, the Reasons Committee will Shannon, Jim Whitford, Dr Philippa meet in Committee Room 12. Sharma, Mr Virendra Whitley, Mick Could those leaving do so carefully, without touching Sheerman, Mr Barry Whittome, Nadia the Dispatch Boxes, as they have been sanitised during Sheppard, Tommy Williams, Hywel the Division? Will Ministers coming in do likewise? Siddiq, Tulip Wilson, Munira 307 27 APRIL 2021 Electricity 308

Electricity We will also not be amending the current energy supplier participation thresholds, as any change now, with such limited time for implementation, could cause 4.42 pm significant and potentially damaging administrative and The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth financial challenges for smaller energy suppliers. We (Anne-Marie Trevelyan): I beg to move, intend to review that for the future reform. That the draft Warm Home Discount (Miscellaneous We are, however, making some improvements to the Amendments) Regulations 2021, which were laid before this industry initiatives part of the scheme. That includes House on 3 March, be approved. lifting the restriction on providing financial assistance The House may be aware that in October 2020 the under industry initiatives to those eligible for a rebate, Government consulted on the proposed one-year extension which will create greater flexibility and help more people of the warm home discount scheme. The changes proposed during the covid-19 pandemic. We will keep the current were broadly welcomed, and these regulations will overall cap of £6 million for the energy debt write-off implement them. mechanism, but we will also introduce a new individual The Government are committed to alleviating fuel cap of £2,000, enabling support to reach a greater poverty. In the sustainable warmth strategy, published number of households in need. in February, the Government restated our commitment Wewill additionally be making changes so that proposed to our statutory target to upgrade as many fuel-poor industry initiatives and specified activities will ensure, homes as is reasonably practical to at least an energy so far as reasonably practicable, that advice on the benefits efficiency rating of band C by the end of 2030. The best of smart meters is provided to households benefiting long-term solution is to improve the energy efficiency of from the industry initiative or specified activity. During a home, thereby bringing down the cost of heating it, the covid-19 pandemic, smart meters have been invaluable but that takes time and some homes, especially those for energy consumers, allowing prepayment customers that are harder to treat, may be left behind. to top up remotely from home, while also enabling suppliers to offer timely support to vulnerable customers. Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): I We are also introducing greater consumer protections thank the Minister for giving way so early. Are there any for boiler and central heating system installations and interim targets for upgrading homes to energy performance repairs carried out under the scheme. certificate band C? What is meant by practical, cost-effective Finally, we are proposing to make some further and reasonable costs? Can those terms be defined, or operational changes this year. That includes introducing are they left for others to judge? a requirement for the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority to inform the Secretary of State if an electricity Anne-Marie Trevelyan: If the hon. Gentlemen waits, supplier that becomes a supplier of last resort notifies we may be able to provide him with some more information. the authority of its intention to meet all or part of a As well as reaching millions of people each year, failed supplier’s non-core spending obligation. This energy bill rebates are simple to deliver and consumer additionally includes making changes to clarify the full friendly. The warm home discount is therefore a key extent of the small suppliers scheme obligations when it policy in our policy mix to help alleviate fuel poverty. passes the relevant threshold and becomes newly subject Since 2011, the warm home discount has helped more to the non-core spending obligation. than 2 million low-income and vulnerable households To conclude, the regulations extend the warm home each year by reducing their energy bills at the time of discount until March 2022, which will help more than year when that is most needed. Under the current 2.2 million households this coming winter. The regulations scheme, around 1 million low-income pensioners in will provide vital support for low-income and vulnerable receipt of pension credit guarantee credit receive the customers to keep warm this winter in advance of £140 warm home discount as an automatic rebate on consulting on wider scheme reform from 2022. I commend their energy bills, and more than 1.2 million low-income the regulations to the House. and vulnerable households receive the rebate following an application to their participating energy supplier. 4.48 pm Building on the success of the scheme, the energy White Paper committed to extending the scheme to at Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I least 2025-26, expanding the overall spending envelope welcome the statutory instrument this afternoon to to £475 million a year from 2022 and consulting on extend the warm home discount for another year. Indeed, reforms to improve the fuel poverty targeting weight. what is there not to like about extending the warm We intend to consult on the future scheme later this home discount for a further year at least? It has been a year. very successful scheme. It is now coming up to its 11th year, and, as the Minister has mentioned, it provides Reforming the scheme has long lead times, however, £140 guaranteed for those in fuel poverty and in vulnerable and this winter I want to prioritise the safe and timely circumstances to help with their fuel bills. delivery of rebates to ensure that those in need continue to receive this vital support, particularly given the continuing I have a sense that the SI is a little Augustinian. It is a impacts of covid-19. It is therefore important that minimal little, in the saying of St Augustine, “Oh Lord make me changes are made to the scheme for next winter. This good, but not now.” [Interruption.] Sorry, “not yet”. I will mean that the scheme will be worth £354 million should look at my “Dictionary of Great Quotations” a and that eligible pensioners on pension credit guarantee little more assiduously. credit, as well as eligible vulnerable households supported The Minister has mentioned the suggestions in the through the broader group, can continue to receive energy White Paper about the future of the warm home £140 off their energy bills. discount and the proposals not only to continue it 309 Electricity 27 APRIL 2021 Electricity 310

[Dr Alan Whitehead] Dr Whitehead: Well, the finances are not there, in general terms. That is one thing mentioned again in the beyond next year but to at least 2026. However, that is White Paper as an ambition, and the Minister has not addressed in this particular piece of legislation herself mentioned the ambition of essentially resolving today. I assume that is because, as the Minister said, fuel poverty by uprating the energy efficiency of homes consultations need to be undertaken in order to refashion up to 2035. Indeed, money has been committed both, I the longer-term warm home discount into a slightly think, in the Conservative election manifesto and in the different form. Indeed, in the energy White Paper, there White Paper itself for that purpose. But actually we is mention of what might be in store for us as far as that have not seen any of that yet, and I doubt we are going refashioning is concerned. In particular, it includes an to see any of that for quite a long time to come. increase in the envelope so that there is a substantially larger amount of money in the pot for extending the scope The question of this continuing problem of entitlement of the warm home discount; an increase in the size of to warm home discounts if a switch takes place is the rebate, with a suggestion that it goes to £150, rather than possibly exacerbated by the new provisions that have £140; and a consultation on a reform of the targeting of been put into the SI as we see it today. That is, of course, the warm home discount so that it faces rather more that it is not necessarily the case that a company that towards fuel poverty than is presently the case. takes over as a supplier of last resort, when another company has failed, is always going to be a company All those things appeared in the White Paper, albeit with more than 150,000 customers. Under the new in a fairly sketchy form, but more than some of them arrangements, the obligations could continue but then could have been done earlier. They need not have been be dissolved by the fact that the new company taken on put off to next year. I assume that a further piece of as a supplier of last resort is below that threshold level. secondary legislation will be introduced to extend the I would suggest that that leads to a rather complicated scheme beyond one year. By the way, it is important outcome as far as entitlements are concerned. that we have some certainty about the longer-term arrangements for the warm home discount so that we I am particularly disappointed that no attempt was are not constantly hopping from one year to the next; made to resolve this issue in this year’s extension, rather we must have a longer-term view of the future of the than batting it down the road to the extension for the scheme. future. I would hope the Minister can assure us this afternoon that she will certainly be very diligent in Not only could some of the things signalled in the attempting to secure a solution to this particular problem White Paper, but not detailed or actioned, have been when the new arrangements come in place up to 2026. I brought forward and put in this year’s extension, but wonder whether the Minister could not just this year, there are further problems with the warm home discount simply by reducing the threshold to a de minimis level, scheme—I think the Minister is well aware of them—that have resolved the issue essentially for this year. have not been addressed in this year’s suggested extension. It is certainly true that there are a number of welcome I am pleased to hear the Minister mention the things in this SI that relate, for example, to the way that continuation of the industry initiatives element of the the supplier of last resort arrangements are dealt with. warm home discount. She will know that that has led to It provides more certainty that a failed supplier’s warm a great deal of very solid and good assistance being home discount obligations do not disappear with the given to people who are in receipt of the warm home failure of the supplier and are carried over to obligations discount for a range of issues relating to their pension going to the supplier that is taking over as the supplier and other tax credit entitlements, and perhaps their as last resort. receipt of top-up vouchers and various other things. I That welcome enhancement of the scheme does not take it from the Minister’s assurances that she has given resolve one of the fundamental problems relating to us this afternoon that the industry initiatives will be obligated suppliers. The Minister mentioned that she fully retained in this year’s extension, and indeed that does not wish to change the threshold for next year’s the industry initiatives arrangements will be rolled over WHD arrangements, but I am sure she is aware that the into the warm home discount after 2026, as it goes obligation level leads to the continuing problem of what forward. happens to someone’s entitlement to the warm home The final thing I would ask the Minister to comment discount if they switch during the year from a supplier briefly on is the ambition in the White Paper proposals that is above the threshold to one that is below it. for the extension of the warm home discount to concentrate Although I accept that the threshold has been reduced, to a greater extent on fuel poverty as such in the delivery there is still an issue of the loss, potential or actual, of of the warm home discount. She will appreciate that a that entitlement to an obligation on switching. The number of the people who receive warm home discounts customer, of course, does not know which supplier will not qualify, as it were, particularly under the revised has 150,000 customers or fewer than 150,000 customers definition of fuel poverty that the Government have when they do that. now indicated is to be the future benchmark for fuel poverty. Nevertheless, those people will be in great Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I declare an interest: need of the warm home discount for the future. I would I am the chair of the all-party parliamentary group for be grateful if the Minister could briefly inform us healthy homes and buildings. I understand that the whether it is her intention to ensure that people who scheme the Minister is proposing is important for people need the warm home discount but do not necessarily fit who need to improve their homes. Does the shadow into the Government’s new definition of fuel poverty Minister believe that the funding is in place to ensure will actually be protected as the arrangements are put in that the finance is there for all those who wish to have place for ensuring a greater emphasis on fuel poverty their homes brought up to a certain standard? for the future. 311 Electricity 27 APRIL 2021 Electricity 312

4.59 pm Quite simply, with over 2.2 million low-income and Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con): Thank you, Mr Deputy vulnerable households in Britain benefiting from the Speaker, for calling me to speak on this important scheme each year, it is the correct and best decision to motion today. I do so not only as the Member for Delyn extend it for a further 12 months, but increasing the but as the chair of the all-party group on fuel poverty overall spending target of the scheme to £354 million and energy efficiency. The motion that we are debating will see even more households able to access the support is one of the biggest steps that we can take towards that they need. Following proper consultation, I also tackling fuel poverty in our country and, as seems to be welcome the changes that the Government are bringing the case throughout the House, I wholeheartedly support it. in, which will broaden the reach of the scheme and give energy companies more flexibility, making it easier for Fuel poverty is one of the most pressing issues of the households to participate in the scheme. 21st century, so I am proud to see that this Government are committed to doing all they can to make sure that From increasing consumer protection during boiler every household is able to afford to properly heat their and central heating installation and repairs to removing home. While it is positive that fuel poverty rates have the restriction on energy suppliers that prevents them fallen in recent years—around 12% of households in from providing emergency support on top of the scheme, Wales are now classed as fuel-poor—there is still much all these small changes will make a huge difference to more to be done. But with definitions and methodologies those who benefit from it. Although there is room to being different in all four constituent parts of the UK, it improve the scheme, I am enthused to hear that the is impossible to compare which measures have been Government have considered the importance of the most successful in driving down those rates. One of the industry initiatives element when looking at the future things that my APPG will look into is whether we can of the scheme. But it is vital that we pass these regulations get a UK-wide agreement on a single definition of fuel now; otherwise, millions of households who are struggling poverty, so that we can get a real understanding of the due to the pandemic would be put in an even more depth of the issue and the disparities between different challenging situation. I agree with the hon. Member for parts of the country. Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), the Opposition Front Bencher, on seeking more long-term clarity, rather Although I am pleased to see the UK Government’s than continued short-term measures. ambitious plans to tackle fuel poverty, whether that is through financial support or improving the energy efficiency I thank everyone who has put in to speak today on of homes, as a Welsh MP, I find myself once again a this important matter and welcome them all to attend little disappointed by the lack of action from the Labour our next APPG meeting towards the end of May. We Government in Wales. The Welsh Government have will continue to work with the Government and discuss proved once again to be all talk and no action, with ways to improve domestic energy efficiency, to achieve Welsh Labour setting targets to eradicate fuel poverty in affordable warmth for all homes and to eventually and Wales by 2010, then again by 2012, and then again by finally eradicate fuel poverty. Heating a home should 2018. Sadly, they have failed to meet this target time and never be a luxury; it is always a necessity. Today’s again, not even coming close. It is the most vulnerable motion and ones like it recognise the need among the households in Delyn and across Wales who will ultimately most vulnerable households in our communities and pay the price for those failings. However, with covid ensure that they can live comfortably, secure in the causing further strain on household finances, I am glad knowledge that they are able to get assistance in properly to see the UK Government go beyond setting arbitrary heating their homes.I hope that the measures are supported targets and look instead to provide real support and on both sides of the House. solutions for those who need them most. Schemes such as the warm home discount, which are available to 5.4 pm households in Wales and throughout Britain, are more Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): important than ever and are a lifeline for many over the Obviously, I welcome any moves to alleviate fuel poverty. winter months. The Scottish Government have provided a legislative Alan Brown: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will accept consent motion for the draft regulations, so clearly I that, if someone is fuel-poor, the reality is that they will not vote against them. However, the reality is that, probably live in a household where they are poor anyway. although we welcome the measures and, as the shadow They are living in poverty and one of the causes of Minister said, the warm homes discount scheme has poverty is the reduction in welfare and benefits, which is been a success, in many ways, it is a typical Tory trick, clearly reserved to Westminster. Does he acknowledge because it uses energy companies themselves and other that that is a problem? Also, has his APPG looked at bill payers to provide assistance to the most vulnerable. investment in energy efficiency in Scotland, where it is The reality is that we need much more direct UK four times per capita that of Westminster? Government investment, particularly in energy efficiency. Recent schemes that were supposed to help with Rob Roberts: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his energy efficiency include the failed green deal scheme. intervention, which kind of highlights one of the issues The UK Government still have not provided compensation that I mentioned, which is the disparity in the definitions for those who were mis-sold green deal installations. We of what fuel poverty actually means in each of the four have just seen the failure of the green homes grant constituent parts. I mentioned that 12% of households scheme. It is ridiculous that the UK Government pulled in Wales are classed as fuel-poor. Although I did not the money because the scheme was deemed to be too note it down, I believe that the percentage in Scotland slow at helping people. Long-term funding is required was 24%, so I am not entirely sure that trumpeting the to allow businesses to invest and to prepare for a successes of the Scottish Government would be a good pipeline of work, rather than the boom-and-bust cycles thing in that case. that we have at the moment. 313 Electricity 27 APRIL 2021 Electricity 314

[Alan Brown] are required to be done through companies under the TrustMark scheme. I give a cautious welcome to that as Fuel poverty is a scourge of society, with something well, but I would like to double check how reliable the like 3.5 million homes considered to be in fuel poverty scheme is, and what BEIS’s governance protocols are on in 2018. It is known that the problem has increased in it. I have already highlighted the green deal fiasco, the past year due to the pandemic and people losing where accreditation was far too easy for unscrupulous employment; yet the figures in paragraph 7.5 of the companies. I also have constituents who have been explanatory memorandum show only an inflationary ripped off by installers of biomass boilers. Again, those increase to the funding available through the scheme. I installers were Government-approved contractors. I would therefore ask the Minister how many additional households just like to double check that the TrustMark scheme is she thinks require further support to alleviate fuel poverty, fit for purpose and that the Minister makes sure that it and how many will miss out because of that standing-still has suitable overarching governance. approach to the funding pot. To return to fuel poverty and its effects, which is a The Minister touched on the fact that imposing a cap reminder of why we need more action, roughly 3.5 million of £2,000 for debt assistance will allow more people to homes are fuel-poor. National Energy Action estimates be helped, so how many more people will be helped and that cold homes contribute to more than 30,000 winter how many people were previously helped at debt levels deaths. Fuel poverty has been estimated to cost the NHS over £2,000 who will still have debt, even if they get across the UK £2.5 billion, with ailments and conditions assistance through the scheme? What is her response to worsened by cold or damp houses. This is against the the Committee on Fuel Poverty, which says that only backdrop of the need to move away from fossil fuel heating. 15% of the UK Government spend on fuel poverty I am on the BEIS Committee and we are undertaking actually reaches the fuel-poor? Will she listen to a heat decarbonisation inquiry at the moment. We have recommendations from industry, the third sector and heard that the overall install cost of a heat pump system the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee is roughly £15,000. What are the Government’s plans to about investing directly in energy-efficiency measures go from 20,000 installs per year to 600,000 per annum and following the lead of the Scottish Government in in 2028? How will that be paid for? It cannot just be put terms of per capita investment, which, as I have said, is on the bills of the average bill payer yet again. Some four times that of Westminster. direct Government investment is going to be required. Will the Government consider that the Scottish I implore the Minister to again look at some examples Government are treating energy efficiency as a national in Scotland. The provision of an independent advice infrastructure project, and when will we see proper body, Home Energy Scotland, has been welcomed by joined-up policies looking at the long term? Will the third sector organisations across the UK. They would Minister consider the call from the Environmental Audit like to see Westminster replicate such an independent Committee to reduce VAT on the refurbishment of body to provide free and impartial advice on modifications energy efficiency installations in existing homes? to the property, how to switch and to help people Paragraph 7.2 of the explanatory memorandum states to make the correct decisions on how to manage their that the Energy White Paper commits heating systems. “to all homes to reach EPC C standard by 2035”, The Scottish Government also run an award-winning so as per my earlier intervention I am hoping that the national fuel poverty scheme, Warmer Homes Scotland. Minister can clarify what “practical, cost-effective and Households assisted through that are expected to save affordable” means, and whether the Government will set an average of £325 in their bills. That is quite significant that out. Paragraph 7.7 details that the funding envelope compared with the £140 warm homes discount rebate will rise to £475 million in 2022, from £354 million this that the SI provides. year. Obviously, additional support for the fuel-poor is The SNP has pledged to replace the unreliable £25 cold welcome, but on what basis has the additional £121 million winter payment with an annual £50 winter heating been identified? How can a figure be derived when the payment, which will cover 400,000 low-income households. same paragraph—7.7—states that there needs to be a Will the Minister look at that in the round, from a consultation on scheme reform to better target fuel Westminster perspective? The SNP has also pledged poverty? Surely good governance is about identifying a that, if re-elected, it will introduce a £20 per week child need and then identifying strategies and solutions to payment, which is clearly going to help families, which meet that need, rather than coming up with a figure and then helps to alleviate fuel poverty. trying to work backwards to find a solution that meets I conclude with a cautious welcome, but really, more the figure. direct Government intervention is required if we are What will that £475 million look like for the average going to eliminate fuel poverty. bill payer? Between the warm homes discount, contracts for difference, smart meters and other initiatives, what 5.12 pm does it all mean for bill payers such as the previously Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con) [V]: Having fabled “just about managing”? Many people are struggling spoken in the Chamber 21 years ago about the need to and the reality is that the more that gets lumped on reduce fuel poverty, when I got my name on the statute energy bills, the more difficult it becomes for them to book for introducing the Warm Homes and Energy afford their heating. Conservation Act 2000—I hope that does not sound Is the increased funding and consultation an admission too puffed-up, Mr Deputy Speaker—I am delighted with that the current scheme is not hitting the right number of the Government’s improvements to that legislation, which people, or the correct fuel-poor households? Paragraph 7.6 was the first piece of legislation obliging the Government outlines that to design and implement a strategy to limit fuel poverty “installations or repairs of boilers and central heating systems” in this country. 315 Electricity 27 APRIL 2021 Electricity 316

According to the most recent annual fuel poverty My hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) statistics published by the Department for Business, raised the really important and genuine challenge that Energy and Industrial Strategy, 13.4% of households we should try to find a UK-wide definition of fuel poverty. were in fuel poverty in England in 2019, compared with I take on board those things. I have regular meetings 15% in 2018. Although progress has been made, which I with the devolved Administrations on a number of issues, welcome, our work needs to continue. We need to take and I will put that on the agenda, because—he is not every measure to raise public awareness about the various wrong—trying to think holistically is a really important help options available, both from the Government and challenge for this Government. I do not guarantee that from energy providers. I will find an answer immediately, but I absolutely take I very much support an extension to the warm homes up the challenge of extending those discussions. discount scheme, as it has been described as a winter In response to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and lifeline by many of my constituents. At a time of financial Loudoun (Alan Brown), we do have, as he asked, interim uncertainty, many residents in Southend have relied on milestones in the fuel poverty strategy of fuel-poor Government support to pay their bills during the households reaching an energy efficiency rating of band coronavirus pandemic. If the warm homes discount E by 2020 and band D by 2025. Achieving that is indeed scheme were not to be extended, many of the most a great challenge. However, investment in the local vulnerable households would be forced to live in unsafe authority schemes element of the green homes grant conditions, which would severely affect their mental scheme has increased by £300 million. We have already and physical health, with the potential for long-lasting allocated £500 million across English regions, reaching irreversible health effects. Fuel poverty is a real concern 50,000 homes, and that will continue to roll out. This is for many households in the United Kingdom as individuals absolutely targeted at reaching the most vulnerable live from day to day relying on every pay cheque to buy households. Local authorities are making really good food, care for their children and pay their utility bills. use of the fund and getting on with making these really This scheme should be extended for at least a year, but important efficiency adaptations for those of our preferably at least until 2026 as set out by the Government constituents who are most in need of it. in their energy White Paper. Turning to the contribution by my hon. Friend the I am sure that colleagues will have received emails Member for Southend West (Sir David Amess)—his similar to the ones I have received from worried constituents. early leadership on this should absolutely be celebrated. In Southend, I have constituents who have been made I have learned in my short time in this place that if you redundant because of the pandemic and have been do not celebrate your achievements, no one else might forced to claim universal credit but are still struggling to do it, so I absolutely support his willingness to share. pay their bills because they have children and grandchildren I did not know about that, so it is lovely to discover it. I who rely on them financially. These individuals need very much hope that we will continue to reassure his urgent support. The Government’s policy on social constituents of our commitment, through both this housing needs to be developed further. I hope the SI and the forthcoming reforms, to really hone this and Government aim to require social landlords to bring try to improve its reach even further. He will no doubt their properties up to at least EPC band C, as social be waiting with bated breath for the heat and buildings housing is Government-funded and so should lead the strategy, which we will be publishing very soon—I way in terms of energy efficiency. would like to say imminently, but it is always hard to know just how clear one can be. Let us go with that. I I welcome the extension of the green homes grant, hope that that will give him a clearer picture of the work but further support should be given to individuals living we want to do to make sure we crack the efficiency in older houses that need remodelling as we transition challenge, which accounts for nearly 20% of our carbon to net zero by 2050. I hope that the Government will emissions, so we have to find ways. It is complicated, continue to work closely with energy suppliers to make with 50 million homes that are built in different ways. It utility bills more affordable for those struggling financially. is a huge challenge that we all have to undertake. In the short term, we have heard from colleagues 5.16 pm across the House about the importance of extending the warm home discount scheme that we are here to put Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I thank hon. Members for through today for a further year. The financial situation their valuable and insightful contributions to this debate. that covid-19 has posed for households across the country I will do my best to answer their questions but, as ever, in the past year has been challenging to say the least, but if I fail to do so, my team will make sure that we get particularly so for low-income and vulnerable households. back to everyone in due course. Thehon.MemberforSouthampton,Test(DrWhitehead) Alan Brown: Will the Minister be able to clarify how highlighted some of the issues. To reassure him, the the £475 million figure was derived? That is an increase reforms will indeed target those most likely to be in fuel of £121 million, which is an increase of almost a third. I poverty as well as protecting the most vulnerable current am just curious about the workings that said £354 million recipients. He is right that consultation is required, but this year is okay, but we need a massive increase the we felt that the pandemic pressures last year made that year after. inappropriate and incredibly difficult, which is why we are rolling it forward for this year and will bring these Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I thank the hon. Gentleman consultations into action as quickly as possible. We for that intervention, and I will make sure we give him absolutely recognise the value of industry initiatives, the detail of the figures in due course. which is why we have expanded their potential use. The I am really pleased that there is agreement across the reform consultations later this year will include industry House that low-income and vulnerable households should initiatives. I hope that reassures him on that front. continue to receive the valuable support provided by the 317 Electricity 27 APRIL 2021 318

[Anne-Marie Trevelyan] Exiting the European Union (Animals) warm home discount at a time when they most need it. 5.27 pm Over the 10 years of the discount scheme so far, more than £3 billion in direct assistance has been provided to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for low-income and vulnerable households. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Victoria Prentis): I beg to move, Dr Whitehead: I thank the Minister very much for That the Trade and Official Controls (Transitional Arrangements giving way. I detect that she may be coming towards the for Prior Notifications) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 (S.I., 2021, end of her comments. I wonder if she might pause to No. 429), dated 30 March 2021, a copy of which was laid before reflect briefly on the whole question of thresholds and this House on 31 March, be approved. obligations, and how they might work out over the next It is a great pleasure to be here and to see you in the year, particularly with the new scheme as it comes Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. This instrument makes forward after her proposed consultation period. urgent and necessary amendments to EU exit legislation concerning border controls to extend the exemption Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I fear the hon. Gentleman period for the import requirements for plants, animals may have to wait for our consultation to consider that, and their products coming into Great Britain from the but I absolutely hear his point and reassure him that we EU. Now that we have left the EU, we are bringing in will be looking at that in the round. I think we will have measures to apply the same risk-based biosecurity controls capacity. It is so important that we get to grips now, at regime to the EU as that which we have for the rest of the start of this really big challenge on buildings efficiency, the world. In our exit regulations, we set out a transitional and think in the round to help those most vulnerable period for the introduction of controls on EU sanitary households, and ensure we are as effective as we can be and phytosanitary imports. The reason for changing the with taxpayers’ money and as impactful as we can be timescale in the statutory instrument today is simply for each and every one of those homes regardless of that we recognise the effects of the pandemic and the their situation. I hope he will be reassured, as the effects it continues to have on the business community. consultation gets going, that we will look at that across Phasing the introduction of controls in a sensible way the board. prioritises flow at the border and is designed to minimise The regulations will enable the continuation of support disruption to international trade. The original start date for a further winter. One million of our poorest pensioners in the regulations was 1 April 2021. That date was and a further 1.2 million households in or at risk of fuel announced last June. When the regulations were drafted poverty will continue to receive £140 off their bills. I in the autumn of 2020, we were simply not clear about encourage all Members to continue to use the messaging—I how disruptive the pandemic would continue to be to am happy to share the detail with them—to reach out to all of us and to our business communities, both here their constituents who might be eligible for pension and in the EU, over the winter. credit but have not applied for it. We want to ensure that On 11 March 2021, the XO Cabinet Committee agreed people apply for it. The numbers are lower than we think that we should extend the introduction of checks because they should be, so I encourage all colleagues to ensure of the pandemic. The change to the timetable will enable that all their constituents who are eligible receive it. businesses to familiarise themselves with the new SPS As we outlined in the energy White Paper, beyond requirements and to bring in new IT systems. It will allow this extension we are committed to extending the scheme them to do further work on the necessary infrastructure from 2022 until at least 2025-26, and to expanding the and processes at border control posts. We will in due spending envelope to £475 million to enable us to reach course introduce a further instrument to reset the later a further 750,000 households, while consulting on reform phases of import controls and get the right dates there, of the scheme to better target fuel poverty spending. We too. intend to consult on the scheme beyond 2022 later this As a whole, these regulations will ensure that we can year. I commend the draft regulations to the House. continue to deliver robust, effective controls and checks Question put and agreed to. on all food, animal and plant imports. The devolved Administrations have given their consent for these Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): We will now regulations to apply to the whole of Great Britain, and suspend for three minutes in order to clean the Dispatch we also remain fully committed to WTO rules and, of Boxes. Please leave carefully. course, to our international trade obligations. This instrument ensures that legislation to maintain our UK 5.24 pm biosecurity will continue to function in GB, taking into Sitting suspended. account the full and unforeseen impacts of dealing nationally and internationally with the pandemic. With this legislation, we will continue to deliver an effective import system that guarantees high standards of food and animal safety while ensuring frictionless trading and movements. I commend these regulations to the House.

5.31 pm Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): Well, here we are again, perhaps unsurprisingly, with yet more statutory instruments needed to correct the entirely foreseeable problems created by the Prime Minister’s rushed job 319 Exiting the European Union 27 APRIL 2021 Exiting the European Union 320 (Animals) (Animals) over Christmas, the consequences of which I fear will be Weekly about an East Sussex machinery dealer who has with us for some time. Let me start by saying that stopped shipping abroad because of what he describes we will not be opposing this SI. It has, after all, been in as the “lunacy” involved in obtaining the plant health effect for nearly a month, and we acknowledge that it certificates required since the UK left the European had to be done, because quite simply, the processes that Union. Let us hope that the team working on the needed to be in place, whether physical or information computer system and their colleagues can make things technology, were not there. The Government simply were work more smoothly for him and others. Will both the not ready,so now they have come back asking for more time physical border control posts and the necessary IT —well, not really asking, but telling—even though they systems be ready this time, or will we be back here again promised in early discussions that they would be ready. having yet another discussion on further extensions? I am sure the Minister remembers, in introducing Although at first the SI looks deceptively simple, SI 2020/1631 on 20 January, saying: making a few date changes, there is more to it than that. “ From July this year, we will have controls in place for all A much longer transition period has consequences, and imports of EU SPS goods.”—[Official Report, Third Delegated as businesses change their practices to adapt, there may Legislation Committee, 20 January 2021; c. 4.] be real costs and risks. Can the Minister tell me what Today, the Government tell us that we will not have analysis has been made of the potential for smugglers such controls, in most situations, until next year. They and fraudsters to take advantage of the lack of checks cannot say that they were not warned; I had previously for an even longer period? Frankly, it is an open door. It warned them about this. The following week, in a debate has even been suggested to me that goods coming into on another of our sequence of SIs, 2020/1661, I said: the EU bound for the UK are being waved through because it is no longer of consequence to the EU. If we “My fear is that there will be a lot of bridging in the months and years ahead”.—[Official Report, Third Delegated Legislation are not checking either, who knows what is actually Committee, 25 January 2021; c. 5.] coming in? What safeguards are there? And here we are, exactly as predicted. Going back to While extending the time kicks the problem further that first discussion on 20 January, I recall pressing the down the road, what progress is the Minister making on Minister quite directly on the potential for delay, and encouraging the EU to be ready in time, to ensure that particularly on the likelihood of border control posts the imports we need will be able to flow smoothly? We being ready. I am sure she remembers. She told us: are well aware of the problems that UK producers have encountered with exports into the EU—the extra costs “The Animal and Plant Health Agency tells us that the building is progressing and it is confident that they can be ready by for export health certificates, the pressure on availability July.”—[Official Report, Third Delegated Legislation Committee, of vets and the problems with groupage. It is highly 20 January 2021; c. 8.] likely that the same problems will occur the other way, I entirely understand the problems of the coronavirus with European suppliers perhaps having less pressure to epidemic, but this was at a time when I think we could get things in place, being able to turn to other European have been aware of the potential problems. markets. How is the Minister using the extra time secured by this SI to ensure that the problems we may It is therefore reasonable for us to be slightly sceptical have been facing in a few weeks are not just put off for a about the current promises from DEFRA in response few more months? to a query from the Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, to which I am sure we are all very grateful. Given that we may still face problems with supply, The Committee was told by the Department that it can the Minister explain why the Food Resilience Industry expected the Forum has been shut down? A member of the forum quoted recently in The Grocer says: “infrastructure to be ready as required to deliver each of the revised phases of increased SPS checks in October 2021, January 2022, “Government has kicked the can down the road with various and March 2022.” grace periods which will come to an end, and at that point there will be a greater need than ever for the industry to come together Well, let us hope so, but I have to say that the saga of the with Defra. It’s short-sighted of the government to be cutting row over the border control posts in Portsmouth bodes these meetings short.” ill. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for They are spot on. That is the consequence of this Portsmouth South (Stephen Morgan) for his campaigning statutory instrument. Can the Minister explain why this to get a fair deal for Portsmouth on this issue. decision was taken and what the Government have got Sadly, it is not just the physical buildings that are late. against working with the food sector to keep food The Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee supplies secure? also rightly queried the readiness of the IT systems. It The SI changes some dates, but there are wider was told by DEFRA that the import of products, consequences. After difficulties at the border for British animals, food and feed system—IPAFFS—is working food exporters, with meat left rotting in lorries and the for imports and that the Department fishing industry thrown into chaos, the Government “continues the development of the new exports IT system (formal have now been forced to delay import checks on goods name to be confirmed in due course).” coming in from the EU to allow businesses and port As a former IT person, that did not fill me with confidence. authorities more time to prepare. The Government have I suspect that staff trying to deal with these things may left themselves with no alternative but to continue to have a few suggestions for names for the aforesaid system. allow check-free imports for many more months, but it Even more alarmingly, the Department cites working did not have to be this way. with a small group of used agricultural farm machinery Instead of sticking their head in the sand, the exporters to develop the system. That is an important Government could have worked with industry to get sector, but I am not sure that it is entirely typical. The ready. They could have focused on practical action to Minister may have seen the recent story in Farmers support businesses—measures such as recruiting and 321 Exiting the European Union 27 APRIL 2021 Exiting the European Union 322 (Animals) (Animals) [Daniel Zeichner] In addition to delays on the border sites, there have been significant delays in other post-Brexit implementation, training the 50,000-plus customs agents we knew were including the arrangements for physical border control needed to help with checks. Instead of delivering a changes required as part of the Le Touquet juxtaposed limited deal at the last possible minute, they could have controls in the port of Dover itself. Order at the border rolled their sleeves up and gained more for our country is vital for trade and prosperity, security and biosecurity. around the negotiating table. Due to the Government’s Strong borders make for good trading neighbours. It is last-minute scramble to extend the deadline on import therefore important that the timetables and action for checks, this legislation had to be made so hastily that it strong and effective border controls do not slip further. has been left incomplete.As I think the Minister confirmed, Lessons from France, which is already undertaking yet more SIs will inevitably be needed to implement animal checks, show that they are more complicated in fully the planned timetable for import checks. practice than was originally anticipated. I am aware Labour has a very different vision for a post-Brexit that channel operators have been supporting the roll-out Britain. We want businesses to thrive and for the gaps in of these new requirements—for example, with language the deal that are piling up paperwork and red tape to be and other support. The UK responded fantastically in properly addressed. We want an end to these stopgaps standing up multilingual facilities at short notice to and real engagement with our European neighbours, to assist with border preparations for transition day. These ensure that our complex and interrelated food systems are the sorts of practical facilities that we need in place can operate effectively and efficiently and not be undermined very shortly to support the changes for checking animals, by Government incompetence, which risks disadvantaging foods and plants. UK producers. In addition to border controls,there are legal frameworks that need completion—for example, around border health 5.39 pm control responsibilities. Dover District Council is the competent authority for the purposes of border health Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Representing checks for both Eurotunnel and the port of Dover, yet it Dover as I do, I am delighted that we left the European and nearby Ashford Borough Council are awaiting the Union at the end of last year, and that we have a new legal framework to underpin the split of responsibilities relationship with Europe and the rest of the world. That between them for the new border control arrangements. new relationship has brought with it an opportunity for Although the authorities work collaboratively and effectively us to make progress on issues that matter to us on which together,it is an unsatisfactory position. Will the Minister’s we have been held back by the EU, including animal Department look into this as a matter of urgency? welfare and food standards, to which I know the Minister From time to time, there is disruption at the port. It is personally very committed. I welcome the Government’s can be caused by national security or terrorism-related commitment to banning live animal exports for fattening issues, strikes, weather or, more recently, unilateral border and slaughter. It is a disgusting practice that has been closure or other activity by the French. In recent weeks, driven from Dover. I look forward to the legislation we have seen the standing down of the emergency later this year, so that it can never return. traffic framework at Manston and the Operation Brock Except for the Christmas shenanigans by the French, moveable barrier. However, there is no new framework the post-Brexit traffic plans have operated well. I thank for permanent additional lorry parks or alternative the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. emergency provision for this next stage post transition. Friend the Member for Redditch (Rachel Maclean), We have seen at first hand the devastation to the fish and the Secretary of State for Transport for their hard and farming industries when problems occur at the work to keep Dover clear. However, four months after border, with fish and seafood rotting in traffic queues leaving the EU and six months after it was announced, and concerns for animal welfare, as well as for drivers. the planned new border facility for Dover at the White The port of Dover is the busiest and most successful Cliffs site is still waiting for the go-ahead. The site is port of its type in the country. In an ordinary year, the designated to support the new DEFRA checking regime port of Dover deals with £122 billion-worth of trade, for animals, food and plant health, of which today’s about a fifth of the whole of the UK trade in goods, regulations form an important part. transiting 4.5 million vehicles and 11 million passengers. Last year, after extensive consideration of all available Daily, that is up to 10,000 freight vehicles and up to local sites, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary confirmed 90,000 passengers. that the White Cliffs site was the only viable solution. The importance of the short straits route is The site has been six months in development since it unquestionable, as is the need to get the border facilities was chosen and will bring millions of pounds of local for such a busy and vital route for our nation up and investment, hundreds of jobs, a local employment strategy running swiftly. That is why I urge the Minister to ensure and so much more besides, but it will also take time to that the additional border facilities needed to manage build. the biosecurity trade and enhanced animal welfare provision The other local border control site is at Ashford, and at the White Cliffs site are confirmed and delivered at it was not delivered on time. It is also close to road-bearing pace, together with effective road management schemes capacity—what it alone can support from the tens of that keep Dover clear and keep animals, plants and thousands of trucks that pass through the border. Will food moving freely through the channel ports. the Minister take steps to support more urgent progress on the White Cliffs site following the purdah period for 5.45 pm the current local elections? The White Cliffs site needs Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP) to be confirmed and started promptly so that it is ready [V]: Here we are again, coming up to five years since to carry out the Department’s new inspection regime. that referendum in which England decided to take us 323 Exiting the European Union 27 APRIL 2021 Exiting the European Union 324 (Animals) (Animals) out of the EU, and still those behind that hare-brained their dog to the UK mainland for a staycation and to be scheme cannot settle on what needs to be done. There and feel part of this United Kingdom of Great Britain has been a veritable catalogue of failures along the way, and Northern Ireland. passing by the truly awful performances in negotiations, Over the past months, my hon. Friend the Member the collapse of exporting industries in the early part of for Upper Bann and I have been contacted by literally this year—teething problems, the Minister said—and hundreds of constituents who travel—some weekly, some the truly appalling way in which EU citizens have been monthly—to dog shows and events both on the UK treated by this Tory Government. mainland and in Northern Ireland. They were okay So here we are once again spending time on regulations doing it before 31 December 2020, but they were unable to facilitate Brexit. How long have we spent having to to do it in the same way on 1 January 2021. The cost for discuss, adjust, finesse and rehash regulations for what each journey has basically meant that show-dog owners was supposed to be the easiest trade deal in history? have had their leisure and, for some, their jobs changed Today, we are kicking the import regulations down the forever. The cost to attend a show or event across the road a little and I am sure that we will be back later to water has sometimes added £200 to the cost of a journey. sort something else out and something else after that. Many, although not all, the people involved are of a The SNP will not oppose these regulations today; pensionable age and the cost was horrendous for them. they are necessary to keep the food on supermarket It basically meant that they were not able to do it. It has shelves here, because the Government failed to plan for changed their leisure activities forever. Brexit. It is almost as if they did not understand what I am not sure whether the Minister knows about this was coming, because the provisions for running a sensible incredible case. Back in February time, four ponies were import system are as lacking as this Government’s coming over from the mainland but were detained in provisions for running a sensible export system. I have custody at the port for five weeks, while my constituents no doubt that Brexit will continue to harm businesses in Ballygowan were unable to get their ponies for their the length and breadth of the UK: small exporters are children. It really was quite incredible. being crushed; farmers are feeling the pressure; and fisher folk are watching their communities being placed Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP): My hon. Friend under huge strain. In the meantime, UK Ministers will is making the valid point that it is the Northern Ireland be trumpeting the great achievement of signing trade protocol that is causing these difficulties. Does he agree deals with countries in various parts of the world—trade that the Government need to realise that the protocol deals that will have no measurable impact on GDP or needs to go so that such ludicrous situations and the the economy here. distress caused to the animals and owners can be avoided? Scotland will soon be out of this Union and we will leave behind those who would cause self-damage for the Jim Shannon: I certainly do; indeed, I wish to make sake of some forlorn idea of sovereign superiority, and I that very point in the conclusion of my contribution. have to say that I am impatient to see that day. How ludicrous was it? There were four ponies for two ladies in Ballygowan in my constituency of Strangford, 5.47 pm but they found that the presents for their children—the ponies—could not be delivered not only before the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to birthday but for five weeks afterwards. Just last weekend, speak in this debate, as it always is to speak in the those four ponies made the great escape and managed Chamber whenever the occasion arises. I thank hon. to get out of EU custody and make it all the way to Members who have contributed to the debate so far. I Ballygowan. That underlines clearly the problems with spoke to the Minister beforehand, so I think that she the Northern Ireland protocol that my hon. Friend has an idea of where I am coming from. Hopefully, she referred to. will be able to give me some idea about what we can do. The regulations do not do what they purport to The explanatory notes say: do—they do not address the withdrawal issue—so I ask “The regulations are made in exercise of the powers conferred again that instead of this SI we trigger article 16 and by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 in order to secure trade for the entire UK. The time is more than address failures of retained EU law to operate effectively and other deficiencies (in particular under section 8(2)(d)) arising past and words and action have to mean something. We from the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European should trigger the article and secure trade beyond July, Union.” December or, indeed, whatever date. We in Northern My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (Carla Ireland need to be treated the same way as the rest of Lockhart) is in her place. She is our spokesperson on the United Kingdom. The Minister has always been Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural very helpful when we have asked her to do anything; I Affairs issues, so she will know only too well what I am hope she has the answer. There is no pressure on her about to say. The legislation has created chaos for the whatsoever. movement of animals from the UK to Northern Ireland and from Northern Ireland to the UK. The Minister 5.53 pm can be under no illusion as to the questions that I will raise today. Why is this extension needed at all? Why Victoria Prentis: I thank all those who have taken have the discussions not enabled things to run smoothly, part in the debate. as promised? Most pertinently, why has Northern Ireland Last June, we announced a timetable for the introduction been—I use this word deliberately—abandoned yet again? of controls on imports from the EU into Great Britain. To use a term that we use many times in this House, this The introduction was phased to ensure that businesses SI will not cut the mustard with those in Northern would have time to prepare. Hindsight is a wonderful Ireland who are unable to purchase dog food, to bring thing: I for one could certainly not have predicted, last 325 Exiting the European Union 27 APRIL 2021 326 (Animals) [Victoria Prentis] There has been a review led by the Cabinet Office of the inland facility at White Cliffs, and I understand that June, the full effects of the pandemic. In fact, I am sure the decision will go to the XO Cabinet Committee—the I am not in a position to do so today. It is important to EU Exit Operations Committee—very shortly.I understand recognise the scale and significance of simultaneous that my hon. Friend has had useful discussions with challenges: new controls and the pandemic’s extended colleagues today and has been able to make her points economic and personal disruption. We have listened to powerfully to them. Until then, no decision will be the concerns of businesses, which have worked hard taken, but I reassure her that she will be kept fully to be ready as soon as possible but still need more time informed throughout the decision-making process. to prepare. I will not apologise for making sensible and I want to reassure the hon. Member for Strangford business-friendly decisions. We will continue to keep the (Jim Shannon), who always speaks passionately on House fully informed as we go, but we live in extremely farming and animal-related matters, that the responsibility unusual times and it is important that we adapt to them for appointing the appropriate vets is a matter for the appropriately. Northern Ireland Executive, but we continue to work As I outlined in my opening speech, this instrument is very closely with the devolved Administrations. As we a critical component in our ongoing legislative process work to get ready for January 2022, we will work to ensure a robust biosecurity imports regime now that directly with the ports where we have residual concerns the transition period has ended. It delivers the first about readiness. We will always ensure that any response stage of the Government’s assessment of our need for a that we come up with is one that can be brought into pragmatic process to continue to phase in controls on operation effectively. I would also like to reassure all imports in a manner and to a timescale that can reasonably those who mentioned this that we continue to work very be met by importers and others in the trading sector. closely with the EU to resolve outstanding matters, and that process will in the end, I hope, lead to fewer rather There are no biosecurity risks from this delay. Current than more checks as we move forward with this new EU biosecurity standards are essentially the same as regime. our own, and where that is not the case—for example, We have had a constructive and useful debate today, with certain plants—we have already delivered more and I commend the regulations to the House. robust controls that remain in place. We will continue to enforce full customs procedures for controlled goods Question put and agreed to. such as tobacco and alcohol, and we will still impose controls on traders we deem to be high risk. I want to Business without Debate reassure the hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) that we continue to intercept illegal movements using DELEGATED LEGISLATION intelligence-led operations. If there is a difference, it is Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing that we can be more targeted in our approach, because Order No. 118(6)), we are now able to focus specifically on risks to GB, rather than the EU as a whole. PUBLIC HEALTH That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Steps We continue to provide support to help businesses get and Local Authority Enforcement Powers) (England) (Amendment) ready, both here and in the EU. On the fifth point raised Regulations 2021 (S.I., 2021, No. 455), dated 9 April 2021, a copy by the hon. Gentleman, as we move out of lockdown, of which was laid before this House on 9 April, be approved.— we are looking for more suitable forums to engage with (Rebecca Harris.) industry, which we do on a regular, day in, day out Question agreed to. basis. I spent a very useful hour at lunchtime chairing a Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing discussion with the Food and Drink Federation, and Order No. 118(6)), there are many such contacts between DEFRA officials and business all the time. HEALTH AND PERSONAL SOCIAL SERVICES We ran an extensive communications campaign, That the Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2021 (S.I., 2021, No. 365), dated 22 March 2021, a copy of which was laid before provided one-to-one support to some of the largest this House on 23 March, be approved.—(Rebecca Harris) traders, hosted webinars for thousands of small businesses, and provided £84 million directly to expand the customs The House divided: Ayes 431, Noes 89. intermediary market. DEFRA has put in place a movement Division No. 280] [6 pm assistance scheme to support and assist traders moving plants and products, and making agri-food movements, AYES from GB to NI since 1 January. The aim of that is to Abbott, rh Ms Diane Andrew, rh Stuart increase understanding and preparedness by providing Abrahams, Debbie Antoniazzi, Tonia a helpline that traders can use to seek guidance on Adams, Nigel Argar, Edward moving goods, as well as providing financial support by Afolami, Bim Ashworth, rh Jonathan reimbursing some certification costs associated with Afriyie, Adam Atherton, Sarah those movements. Ahmad Khan, Imran Atkins, Victoria Aiken, Nickie Bacon, Mr Richard My hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Mrs Elphicke) Ali, Rushanara Badenoch, Kemi made her points very powerfully. It was useful to have Ali, Tahir Bailey, Shaun direct and real experience from the port of Dover reflected Allan, Lucy Baillie, Siobhan in our debate. I listened with interest to what she said Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Baker, Duncan about live exports, and I very much look forward to Amesbury, Mike Barclay, rh Steve hearing news about that in the very short term. The Anderson, Fleur Barker, Paula Government are determined to legislate in that space. Anderson, Lee Baron, Mr John 327 Business without Debate27 APRIL 2021 Business without Debate 328

Baynes, Simon Davies-Jones, Alex Halfon, rh Robert Lloyd, Tony Beckett, rh Margaret Davis, rh Mr David Hall, Luke Loder, Chris Begum, Apsana Davison, Dehenna Hamilton, Fabian Long Bailey, Rebecca Bell, Aaron De Cordova, Marsha Hammond, Stephen Lopez, Julia Benn, rh Hilary Debbonaire, Thangam Hancock, rh Matt Lopresti, Jack Beresford, Sir Paul Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Hanna, Claire Loughton, Tim Berry, rh Jake Dinenage, Caroline Hardy, Emma Lucas, Caroline Betts, Mr Clive Dines, Miss Sarah Harman, rh Ms Harriet Lynch, Holly Blake, Olivia Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Harris, Carolyn Mackrory, Cherilyn Blomfield, Paul Docherty, Leo Harris, Rebecca Maclean, Rachel Blunt, Crispin Dodds, Anneliese Harrison, Trudy Madders, Justin Bottomley, Sir Peter Dorries, Ms Nadine Hart, rh Simon Mahmood, Mr Khalid Bowie, Andrew Doughty, Stephen Hayes, Helen Mahmood, Shabana Brabin, Tracy Dowd, Peter Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mak, Alan Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dowden, rh Oliver Healey, rh John Malhotra, Seema Brady, Sir Graham Drax, Richard Heappey, James Malthouse, Kit Braverman, rh Suella Dromey, Jack Heaton-Harris, Chris Mangnall, Anthony Brennan, Kevin Duddridge, James Hendrick, Sir Mark Mann, Scott Brereton, Jack Duffield, Rosie Henry, Darren Marson, Julie Brine, Steve Dunne, rh Philip Higginbotham, Antony Matheson, Christian Bristow, Paul Eagle, Dame Angela Hobhouse, Wera May, rh Mrs Theresa Britcliffe, Sara Eagle, Maria Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Mayhew, Jerome Brown, Ms Lyn Eastwood, Colum Hodgson, Mrs Sharon McCabe, Steve Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Eastwood, Mark Holden, Mr Richard McCarthy, Kerry Browne, Anthony Edwards, Jonathan Hollern, Kate McCartney, Jason Bryant, Chris Edwards, Ruth Hollinrake, Kevin McCartney, Karl Buchan, Felicity Efford, Clive Holmes, Paul McDonagh, Siobhain Buck, Ms Karen Elliott, Julie Hopkins, Rachel McDonald, Andy Buckland, rh Robert Ellis, rh Michael Howarth, rh Sir George McDonnell, rh John Burghart, Alex Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Howell, John McFadden, rh Mr Pat Burgon, Richard Elmore, Chris Howell, Paul McGinn, Conor Butler, Dawn Eshalomi, Florence Hudson, Dr Neil McGovern, Alison Byrne, Ian Esterson, Bill Hunt, Jane McKinnell, Catherine Byrne, rh Liam Eustice, rh George Hunt, rh Jeremy McMahon, Jim Cadbury, Ruth Evans, Chris Huq, Dr Rupa McMorrin, Anna Campbell, rh Sir Alan Evennett, rh Sir David Jack, rh Mr Alister Mearns, Ian Carden, Dan Everitt, Ben Jardine, Christine Menzies, Mark Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Fabricant, Michael Jarvis, Dan Merriman, Huw Carter, Andy Farris, Laura Javid, rh Sajid Metcalfe, Stephen Chalk, Alex Farry, Stephen Jenkin, Sir Bernard Miliband, rh Edward Chamberlain, Wendy Fell, Simon Jenrick, rh Robert Miller, rh Mrs Maria Champion, Sarah Fletcher, Colleen Johnson, rh Boris Mills, Nigel Charalambous, Bambos Fletcher, Katherine Johnson, Dr Caroline Mishra, Navendu Churchill, Jo Fletcher, Mark Johnson, rh Dame Diana Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Clark, Feryal Ford, Vicky Johnson, Gareth Moore, Damien Clark, rh Greg Fovargue, Yvonne Johnson, Kim Moore, Robbie Clarke, Theo Fox, rh Dr Liam Johnston, David Moran, Layla Clarke-Smith, Brendan Foxcroft, Vicky Jones, Darren Mordaunt, rh Penny Clarkson, Chris Foy, Mary Kelly Jones, Fay Morden, Jessica Cleverly, rh James Frazer, rh Lucy Jones, Gerald Morgan, Stephen Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Freeman, George Jones, rh Mr Kevan Morris, David Colburn, Elliot Freer, Mike Jones, Ruth Morris, Grahame Collins, Damian Furniss, Gill Jones, Sarah Mundell, rh David Cooper, Daisy Fysh, Mr Marcus Jupp, Simon Murray, Ian Cooper, rh Yvette Gardiner, Barry Kearns, Alicia Murray, James Corbyn, rh Jeremy Garnier, Mark Keegan, Gillian Murray, Mrs Sheryll Costa, Alberto Ghani, Ms Nusrat Keeley, Barbara Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Coutinho, Claire Gibb, rh Nick Kendall, Liz Nandy, Lisa Coyle, Neil Gibson, Peter Khan, Afzal Neill, Sir Robert Creasy, Stella Gideon, Jo Kinnock, Stephen Nichols, Charlotte Crouch, Tracey Gill, Preet Kaur Knight, rh Sir Greg Nici, Lia Cruddas, Jon Gove, rh Michael Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Nokes, rh Caroline Cryer, John Graham, Richard Kyle, Peter Norman, rh Jesse Cummins, Judith Grant, Mrs Helen Lake, Ben Norris, Alex Cunningham, Alex Green, Kate Lammy, rh Mr David O’Brien, Neil Daly, James Greenwood, Lilian Largan, Robert Olney, Sarah Davey, rh Ed Greenwood, Margaret Latham, Mrs Pauline Onwurah, Chi David, Wayne Griffith, Nia Lavery, Ian Opperman, Guy Davies, David T. C. Griffiths, Kate Levy, Ian Oppong-Asare, Abena Davies, Geraint Gullis, Jonathan Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Osamor, Kate Davies, Dr James Gwynne, Andrew Lewis, rh Brandon Osborne, Kate Davies, Mims Haigh, Louise Lewis, Clive Owatemi, Taiwo 329 Business without Debate27 APRIL 2021 Business without Debate 330

Owen, Sarah Stevens, Jo Davies, Philip Lockhart, Carla Parish, Neil Stewart, rh Bob Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Logan, Mark Patel, rh Priti Stone, Jamie Donelan, Michelle Longhi, Marco Pawsey, Mark Streeting, Wes Double, Steve Lord, Mr Jonathan Peacock, Stephanie Stride, rh Mel Drummond, Mrs Flick Maskell, Rachael Penning, rh Sir Mike Stringer, Graham Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Maynard, Paul Pennycook, Matthew Stuart, Graham Farron, Tim Millar, Robin Penrose, John Sturdy, Julian Fletcher, Nick Mullan, Dr Kieran Perkins, Mr Toby Sultana, Zarah Foster, Kevin Offord, Dr Matthew Phillips, Jess Sunak, rh Rishi Francois, rh Mr Mark Paisley, Ian Phillipson, Bridget Sunderland, James Fuller, Richard Paterson, rh Mr Owen Philp, Chris Tami, rh Mark Gale, rh Sir Roger Randall, Tom Pollard, Luke Tarry, Sam Girvan, Paul Redwood, rh John Poulter, Dr Dan Thomas, Gareth Glen, John Rimmer, Ms Marie Pow, Rebecca Thomas-Symonds, rh Nick Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Robertson, Mr Laurence Powell, Lucy Thornberry, rh Emily Gray, James Robinson, Gavin Pritchard, rh Mark Throup, Maggie Grayling, rh Chris Robinson, Mary Quin, Jeremy Timms, rh Stephen Green, rh Damian Rosindell, Andrew Quince, Will Tolhurst, Kelly Griffith, Andrew Rowley, Lee Qureshi, Yasmin Tomlinson, Justin Grundy, James Sambrook, Gary Raab, rh Dominic Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Harper, rh Mr Mark Smith, Greg Rayner, rh Angela Trickett, Jon Hart, Sally-Ann Stafford, Alexander Reed, Steve Trott, Laura Hayes, rh Sir John Stewart, Iain Rees, Christina Truss, rh Elizabeth Hollobone, Mr Philip Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Reeves, Ellie Tugendhat, Tom Holloway, Adam Syms, Sir Robert Reeves, Rachel Turner, Karl Hughes, Eddie Thomas, Derek Reynolds, Jonathan Twigg, Derek Hunt, Tom Tomlinson, Michael Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Twist, Liz Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Vickers, Martin Richards, Nicola Vaz, rh Valerie Jenkinson, Mark Vickers, Matt Richardson, Angela Wakeford, Christian Jenkyns, Andrea Whittaker, Craig Roberts, Rob Walker, Mr Robin Jones, rh Mr David Wilson, rh Sammy Rodda, Matt Wallace, rh Mr Ben Kane, Mike Wood, Mike Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Warburton, David Kawczynski, Daniel Young, Jacob Saville Roberts, rh Liz Warman, Matt Kruger, Danny Saxby, Selaine Watling, Giles Leadsom, rh Andrea Tellers for the Noes: Scully, Paul Webb, Suzanne Leigh, rh Sir Edward Chris Green and Seely, Bob Webbe, Claudia Lewer, Andrew Jim Shannon Shah, Naz West, Catherine Shapps, rh Grant Western, Matt Question accordingly agreed to. Sharma, rh Alok Whately, Helen Sharma, Mr Virendra Whitehead, Dr Alan The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Sheerman, Mr Barry Whitley, Mick proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Shelbrooke, rh Alec Whittingdale, rh Mr John proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Siddiq, Tulip Whittome, Nadia Simmonds, David Wiggin, Bill Skidmore, rh Chris Wild, James PETITION Slaughter, Andy Williams, Craig Dog attacks Smith, Cat Williams, Hywel Smith, Chloe Williamson, rh Gavin 6.11 pm Smith, Jeff Wilson, Munira Smith, rh Julian Winter, Beth Feryal Clark (Enfield North) (Lab) [V]: Many of my Smith, Nick Wright, rh Jeremy constituents have been in touch concerning dog-on-dog Smyth, Karin Yasin, Mohammad attacks, and more than 150,000 people have signed the Sobel, Alex Zahawi, Nadhim petition launched by my constituent, Emma Gambrill. I Solloway, Amanda Zeichner, Daniel therefore present this petition on behalf of my constituent Spencer, Dr Ben Emma, and note that this petition goes alongside her Spencer, rh Mark Tellers for the Ayes: Starmer, rh Keir James Morris and online campaign. Stephenson, Andrew Maria Caulfield The petition states: The petition of Emma Gambrill, NOES Declares that current legislation in the form of the Dogs Act 1871 and Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 does not account for Amess, Sir David Cameron, Dr Lisa dog-on-dog attacks where the dogs behave dangerously and are Anderson, Stuart Campbell, Mr Gregory clearly out of control of irresponsible owners; further that this Ansell, Caroline Cash, Sir William means that owners of dangerous dogs do not face robust action Bacon, Gareth Cates, Miriam when their dogs attack other dogs; further that this problem was Baker, Mr Steve Chishti, Rehman recently horribly highlighted in the case of Enfield North constituent Benton, Scott Chope, Sir Christopher Emma Gambrill’s dog, where her beautiful border collie, Blue, was attacked and mauled to death by two Cane Corso dogs that Blackman, Bob Courts, Robert escaped from their garden, and where the owners who were Bone, Mr Peter Cox, rh Sir Geoffrey present in their garden and were witness to the event were unable Bradley, Ben Crabb, rh Stephen to control their dogs; and further that attacks such as this leave Bruce, Fiona Crosbie, Virginia owners and families distraught and traumatised. 331 Business without Debate 27 APRIL 2021 332

The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Alcohol Products: Labelling urge the Government to review the Dogs Act 1871 and Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, to set out whether this problem could be addressed Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House by making dog-on-dog attacks a criminal offence, and to ensure do now adjourn.—(James Morris.) that irresponsible owners of dangerous dogs face more robust action. 6.12 pm And the petitioners remain, etc. [P002661] Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): I am grateful to Mr Speaker for allowing me this Adjournment debate, and I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to the Minister, whose reply I look forward to. Earlier this month, the details of the upcoming Government consultation on alcohol labelling—part of the obesity strategy—were leaked to the press. It is a long-overdue consultation and a welcome positive step that should lead to consumers being able to make more informed choices about their own health and wellbeing, but thanks to yet another hostile Government leak, the consultation was roundly attacked and misrepresented by tabloids and industry representatives. It sparked the usual outraged backlash against the nannying state and red tape, when that is simply not the case. I thought I would attempt to put the record straight. To avoid confusion or misrepresentation, I whole- heartedly support our hospitality industry,and I understand the uphill battle it faces and the devastation that lockdowns and restrictions have caused. There is excitement and anticipationacrossthecountryaboutgettingout,socialising, having a drink, seeing live music and enjoying life. We have all missed spending time with family and friends, whether that is relaxing and unwinding or going out and partying. When we consider the role of alcohol in our society, we see that there is a balance to be struck. As with many things in life, there is the good and there is the bad, because we cannot escape the very real harm alcohol inflicts. The evidence, which I will come to, speaks for itself. Tackling alcohol harm is not about punishing drinkers or landlords, or taking the fun out of socialising. However, we have a responsibility—the Government have a responsibility—to hold the alcohol industry to account, and to ensure its fair and proper regulation. Alcohol harm is rising, and it has been for many years, however we want to count it. Alcohol is now linked to 80 deaths a day in the UK, many of them of the young, while alcohol-specific deaths are at their highest rates since records began, and the treatment and funding for alcohol addiction are in absolute crisis, yet there appears to be no sense of urgency from Government. Alcohol is responsible for more years of working life lost than the 10 most frequent cancers combined. Before covid, alcohol took up 37% of ambulance time and a quarter of A&E time. For the police, it is even higher, with more than half of police time spent on alcohol-related incidents. All of this comes at a high financial cost, too. Alcohol harm is estimated to cost the UK taxpayer upwards of £27 billion each year.

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. Member for bringing this issue to the House. It is a massive issue in his constituency, and very much one in mine as well. Does he not agree that alcohol-specific deaths are at an all-time high owing to a perfect storm? With coronavirus, isolation and lockdown, as well as the fact that very few people use standard pub measures at home, that there are supermarket deals on bottles of alcohol and people do not have to drive to work the 333 Alcohol Products: Labelling27 APRIL 2021 Alcohol Products: Labelling 334

[Jim Shannon] want ingredients on alcohol labels, 62% want nutritional information, including calorie content, and 70% want next day, it is imperative that we take steps to remind health warnings. people of the number of units per bottle, make it clear There is a strong case for displaying calorie information that the glass of wine they are accustomed to at home is on alcohol labels. For those who drink, alcohol accounts not the same as their local pub one, and make people for nearly 10% of their daily calorie intake. Around aware of the need to reduce their intake. 3.4 million adults consume an additional day’s worth of calories each week, yet 80% of the public are unaware Dan Carden: I am grateful to the hon. Member, and of the calorie content of the most common alcoholic he is absolutely right. drinks. We know that those in the most deprived communities Alcohol harm is also poorly understood by drinkers. are disproportionately affected. Despite drinking less Only one in five people know the drinking guidelines, on average, they are up to 60% more likely to die from and only one in 10 can identify cancer as a health alcohol than more affluent groups. In Liverpool—just consequence of alcohol. We have warnings on cigarettes one city—there are more than 14,000 alcohol-related that tobacco can cause cancer,so why is similar information hospital admissions every year, and 535 new cases of missing from alcohol? alcohol-related cancer as well. Alcohol harm and addiction are destroying lives, livelihoods, communities and families. I would like to quote one person with lived experience, To return to the matter of today’s debate—alcohol who described the lack of health information to me like labelling—I would like to ask those listening to remember this: the last time they looked at a bottle of orange juice. “I knew little of how many recommended units per week, I They may remember a number in red detailing the sugar knew nothing about the nutritional value, I could tell you how content, a number for how many calories are in the many calories were in a Mars Bar but not the glass of Merlot I drink, and a whole table with further information on was drinking. I knew nothing about the long-term health implications. If I buy a pack of cigarettes I am told they are highly addictive nutritional content. Now picture a bottle of alcohol—wine and I am told with every pack what health implication there could perhaps. Do they remember seeing any such information be. They are now behind a shutter in the shop – but alcohol? about the ingredients, calories or nutritional values? Nothing. I near lost my life to alcohol and the lack of information Was there any information about the impact of alcohol and regulation makes no sense to me”. on health, or any guidelines for consumption? If I can Alcohol labels are an effective tool to change that make a guess, the answer is most likely to be no, or situation. A study in Canada showed that consumers maybe “on some bottles”. That is because none of this exposed to health warnings on labels were three times information is legally required on alcohol labels. Alcohol more likely to be aware of the drinking guidelines and products are a conspicuous outlier among consumables. were also more likely to know about the link between They are exempt from other food and drink labelling alcohol and cancer. requirements, and the only information that is legally required is the volume of the liquid, its strength in A number of alcohol products voluntarily incorporate ABV—alcohol by volume—and whether any of the unit alcohol content per container, a pregnancy logo or 14 most common allergens are present. message and active signposting to drinkaware.co.uk. In July 2020, the Government unveiled the new obesity I am grateful to the producers who contacted me ahead of strategy.On the subject of labelling, the Health Secretary this debate to share updated labels that now include said calorie and nutritional information. One of the UK’s biggest pub chains has already taken that step and is “it’s only fair that you are given the right information about the providing calorie labelling for all alcoholic drinks on food you’re eating to help people to make good decisions.” their menus. I am grateful to the Minister for confirming, He is absolutely right, and what he says is as true for in answer to my written question, that alcohol sold in alcoholic drinks as it is for anything else. It is surely licensed venues will also be part of the consultation. bizarre that if we buy a bottle of juice, we get a range of calorie, ingredient and nutritional information, yet if we If someone pops into their local supermarket and buy a juice and vodka ready-to-drink product, we will takes a wander round the booze aisle, it is abundantly usually not get any of the same information. Similarly, clear that there are huge inconsistencies in alcohol alcohol-free beer and wine must display calorie and packaging. That hit-and-miss approach is just not good nutritional information, yet alcoholic beer and wine enough. It is time to put it right and standardise the does not have to. approach, as we have done with food labelling. Even on the products that did carry chief medical officer guidelines Covid-19 has reminded us all of the need to take and nutritional information, there are varying degrees seriously the impact of diet and lifestyle on our physical of clarity and visibility. and mental health. As we know that alcohol damages health and causes harm, it is inexplicable that alcohol In their report “Drinking in the dark: How alcohol products face less regulation than fruit juices and fizzy labelling fails consumers”, Alcohol Change UK and the drinks, so the Government’s consultation is timely and Alcohol Health Alliance recommend that: important. “The UK Government and devolved administrations must I want to press the Minister to go further with the give a new or existing independent agency appropriate powers consultation than calories, nutritional information and to…enforce what appears on alcohol labels, working in the interests ingredients; it must consider health information as well. of public health and consumer rights and free from influence and interference from corporate interests.” The majority of the public agree and want to know what is in their drinks. Opinion polling conducted for I support that recommendation and hope that the Minister the Alcohol Health Alliance shows that 74% of people will consider it in the consultation, when it gets under way. 335 Alcohol Products: Labelling27 APRIL 2021 Alcohol Products: Labelling 336

Sir Ian Gilmore, a leading figure in Liverpool’s fight As it stands today, the UK has the highest number of against alcohol harm and chair of the Alcohol Health alcohol-specific deaths on record. Drug and alcohol Alliance, said: addiction services have been pushed outside the NHS “Alcohol labelling in this country is…not fit for purpose if we into cash-strapped local authorities, decimated by funding wish to build a healthier society. The public must be granted the cuts and fragmented. There are fewer addiction psychiatrists power to make informed decisions about their health by having in training than ever. Alcohol is now 74% cheaper than access to prominent health warnings and information on ingredients, it was in 1987, and in England there are over 300,000 nutrition and alcohol content at the point of purchase. The children currently living with at least one adult who industry’s reluctance to include this information on their products drinks at a high-risk level. suggests profits are being put ahead of people’s health.” This current trajectory cannot continue and the urgent Ahead of this debate, I received a letter and information need for a national alcohol strategy cannot be overstated. from the Portman Group, the alcohol industry-funded In their approach to obesity, the Government have social responsibility body and regulator for alcohol shown a willingness to take bold action to protect the labelling, packaging and promotion in the UK, and I public’s health. The same boldness is now required to am grateful for that. The Portman Group supports the tackle alcohol harm. The consultation on the labelling consultation and its intention to provide consumers of alcohol products is the first step towards improving with more information on calories,the chief medical officer’s transparency and accountability across the alcohol industry, lower-risk guidance and drink-driving. It said that and ensuring an evidence-based approach to reducing “we believe this can be done most effectively on a voluntary basis”. alcohol harms. I implore the Minister to get it under way, and I look forward to her response. It is encouraging to hear some industry support for the consultation and I look forward to further discussions with it, but with alcohol-specific deaths at their highest 6.29 pm on record, it is surely time for a proper review of how The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health the industry is regulated and held to account. and Social Care (Jo Churchill): I am grateful to the hon. The regulation of alcohol marketing in the UK is Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden) for securing fragmented and largely self-regulating. Under the current the debate and for the measured way in which he has set-up, the Advertising Standards Authority, funded by approached this issue. He set out how we want to move the advertising industry, Ofcom and the Portman Group, forward, how alcohol has a broader cost—a cost to lives, funded by the alcohol industry, all play a role in regulating to people’shealth and to society—and how,fundamentally, marketing, from TV advertising to sponsorship deals to this is about education; it is about helping people to packaging. That is surely ripe for review, to consider make informed choices and make the right choice. For how a new model and a new alcohol industry regulator that, I thank him. could be made more accountable to the public and be While the debate focuses on the labelling of alcohol fully independent of the alcohol industry. products, I want to start by making a few points on alcohol consumption and misuse, which it is extremely I hope that the Minister will use her consultation as important to address. While the majority of people drink an opportunity to mandate wider health information and do so responsibly—I am sure the whole nation will on labels, too. This should, as a minimum, include be cheering at the fact that the hon. Gentleman does not the CMO’s guidelines, pregnancy warnings, drink-drive want to take the fun out of us all enjoying a responsible warnings and cancer warnings, so that we can make drink and getting together with friends and family—we informed personal health choices and collectively seek know that there are people who drink at harmful levels, to reduce alcohol harm. with that alcohol misuse leading to significant harms in I accept that alcohol labelling is only one small part not only their lives but the lives of those around them. of seeking to reduce alcohol harm across society. Any It has large impacts on society that have a cost to progress on improving labelling should be part of a health, to productivity and to quality of life. broader strategy: a national, Government alcohol strategy. Excessive consumption is the biggest risk factor to The last alcohol strategy was formulated in 2012, and, which early mortality,ill health and disability are attributable since then, harms have continued to rise. Over the last among 15 to 49-year-olds in the UK—those are young decade, we have learnt a lot more about the wider health people’s lives—and is considered to be the third largest impacts of alcohol, such as the link between alcohol lifestyle risk for preventable disease after smoking and and cancer. The World Health Organisation is clear that obesity.Alcohol harms are not experienced equally across policies on the affordability, availability and promotion all groups. Those with a lower socioeconomic status show of alcohol are the most effective—policies that have the greatest susceptibility to alcohol harms and have a also proved effective in reducing smoking. much higher likelihood of death or suffering a disease What can really be said of attempts to reduce the relating to their alcohol use, be it cancer, liver disease or increasing and worsening harms caused by alcohol misuse? a plethora of other things. Why is it that evidence-based research and policies are In recent years, we have seen an overall decrease in the being ignored in this way? The Government’s addiction number of people drinking. However,a review undertaken strategy is under way—it was promised in 2020, but we by Public Health England shows that during the pandemic, are waiting for it—and we also await the second part of we have seen an increase in those drinking at dependent the Dame Carol Black review of drugs. These are very and higher-risk levels. While numbers may have gone down welcome, but now is surely the time for a full-scale at the more moderate end, we have seen an increase of more review of reducing alcohol harm across society.A focused than 16% in alcohol-related deaths for the first three alcohol strategy would allow a much broader and fuller quarters of 2020 compared with 2019. During that period understanding of the extent of alcohol harm and the we were largely limited to off-sales, because places where measures needed to reduce it. we might normally enjoy a social drink were closed. 337 Alcohol Products: Labelling27 APRIL 2021 Alcohol Products: Labelling 338

[Jo Churchill] appreciate that the pandemic has delayed those plans and that the hospitality industry has been severely We know that most people who drink alcohol do so impacted, but I would like to think that we can now responsibly and enjoy doing it on social occasions, but refocus. I am really looking forward to seeing rapid the covid pandemic has shone a spotlight on the impact progress and top premium brands increasingly displaying of general poor health on our ability to fight off the the guidance on their labels. As the hon. Gentleman virus. That is why we need to be aware of the risks of said, the Portman Group acts as the socially responsible excessive drinking and how much heavier the impact is element of the industry, and what can be more socially on those who have risks and challenges in that part of responsible than helping to educate people so they can their life. It has underlined the need to take action, make an informed decision? which was the thread running through the hon. Gentleman’s Post covid, we know that more must be done to look speech. We are improving the public health response after our health. However, making healthier decisions and addressing a number of challenges, including obesity, without all the information is actually quite a challenge. smoking and drug misuse, and we will continue to For people to make informed decisions about the drinks monitor the impact of alcohol during the pandemic and they are purchasing, they need to be able to understand as we come out of it, considering further action in the what is in that product and what it means for their forthcoming addiction strategy. health. We know that excessive alcohol consumption Drug and alcohol treatment providers have continued can be a contributing factor to obesity. I think the hon. to support and treat people through the pandemic, but Gentleman totted up the daily figures I am going to give there have been challenges. There have been some brighter and rounded them up to a week’s worth of figures, which sparks. I have spoken to people who have delivered equated to an extra day’s calories. Adults, on average, group sessions, and it has been easier at times to connect consume 200 to 300 extra calories per day. Of those who and communicate, but for others, the journey during drink, 7% to 8% of that calorie intake comes from alcohol, the pandemic has been a lot more disconnected. At this because it is highly calorific. However, the evidence shows point in the debate, I would like to encourage, as I am that the public, as he articulated, are largely unaware of sure the hon. Gentleman would, anybody who is worried those invisible calories. Many adults cannot accurately about their consumption of alcohol to reach out and estimate the calorie content of an alcoholic product. seek help at the earliest possible opportunity. In 2019, less than half of alcohol brands provided Alcohol labelling, which is what we are largely discussing calorie information on labels,so as part of the Government’s this evening, is an important part of the overall work on latest obesity strategy we are committed to consult on reducing alcohol-related harms. The Government believe the introduction of mandatory calorie labelling on pre- that people have the right to accurate information and packaged alcohol and alcohol sold in the on-trade clear advice about alcohol and the health risks that may sector. We hope that the provision of calorie labelling be associated with it, to enable them to make informed on alcohol will encourage reformulation, because there choices about their drinking and what they consume. are market opportunities for lower-calorie versions that As people return to socialising and drinking this summer, will further help adults to reduce their calorie intake it is increasingly important that they are educated not from alcohol. This consultation will be launched very just about alcohol and its harms, but about how they shortly. can enjoy alcohol responsibly and have fun with other The Portman Group, as I said, is the social responsibility people in a manner that saves on some of the other body and regulator for alcohol labelling, packaging and costs of drinking too much. promotion. It operates its codes of practice to ensure The UK chief medical officer’s low-risk drinking that alcohol is marketed in a socially responsible way guidelines were published back in 2016. The intention is only to those of 18 and over, and in a way that does not to help people understand the risks that alcohol might appeal to those who are particularly vulnerable to its pose to an individual’s health and to make decisions appeal. The codes are supported throughout the industry, about consumption in the light of those risks. The with over 150 code signatories, including producers, guidelines are based on evidence of risk and benefit, importers,wholesalers,retailers and their trade associations. including the most up-to-date international and UK-specific I am absolutely committed, as are colleagues across data. The guidelines give a clear recommendation to Government, to working with the industry to address limit alcohol intake to 14 units a week, to limit daily concerns over irresponsible labelling, packaging and intake to reduce immediate risk, and not to drink if promotion allied to labelling, and the concerns that the pregnant or planning to become pregnant due to the industry has, because I am sure that it is much easier if effect on the unborn child. everybody is doing a similar thing, and then people can easily and swiftly find the information that they need, as Over the past years, we have worked with the alcohol the hon. Gentleman laid out. industry to ensure that alcohol labels reflect the UK CMO low-risk drinking guidelines, and the industry Dan Carden: Will the Minister give way? has committed to comply with that requirement. We are monitoring, carefully and closely, the progress that is being achieved. The British Retail Consortium—I would Jim Shannon: Will the Minister give way? like to congratulate it on this—led the way in this area, with most own brands, such as Marks & Spencer and Jo Churchill: My goodness—stereo! Aldi, now displaying the CMO guidelines. That shows that it can be done and that some are doing it. We were Dan Carden: As we know of the increasing harms also pleased that in 2019 the Portman Group, which the from alcohol across society, which are slightly different hon. Gentleman mentioned, and its members committed from what will be covered in the addiction strategy, and to include the guidelines on their products. We fully there has been an increased focus on the drug strategy, 339 Alcohol Products: Labelling27 APRIL 2021 Alcohol Products: Labelling 340 does the Minister see the argument now for a proper As part of the prevention Green Paper,we are committed review and strategy to deal with increasing alcohol to increasing the general drinking population’s direction harms across society? of travel towards lower-strength alternatives when they have moderate drinking habits. We are working with the Jo Churchill: Now is a great time to focus on making industry and other stakeholders to create more consumer sure that we enable people to make the healthier choice choice and availability in the low-alcohol and no-alcohol as the default choice, and that we work to ensure that sector.They are often very palatable alternatives,particularly people have the right information for them. All I am for those who are driving or who may have a reason to willing to say at this stage is that nothing is off the table. want a clear head the following morning. The more There are a lot of strategies. Rather than making any choice that we can give people in that area, the better. blanket statement, the important job now is to refocus The Government have committed to publishing a and to deliver on some of the commitments that we new, UK-wide cross-Government addiction strategy that would like to see, and to make sure that the consultation considers the full range of issues, including drugs, alcohol is rolled out so that we can have that dialogue and make and problem gambling. While each of those comes with sure that we are doing the right thing for individuals but its own set of issues—as the hon. Gentleman said, the also across the industry. second part of Dame Carol Black’sreview is due shortly— there is also much common ground and many benefits Jim Shannon: I thank the Minister for outlining very to tackling addiction in a complete, comprehensive and clearly a strategy to address the issues that the hon. joined-up way. The scope of the addiction strategy is Gentleman is referring to. Minister, I know that it is not still being developed, so I consider this debate and his technically your responsibility, but I think perhaps— calls most timely as we consider what more can be done to protect people from those alcohol-related harms. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): No, I emphasise the Government’s commitment to ensuring please, the hon. Gentleman cannot disappoint me like that alcohol labels provide the information that people this. He cannot say “you” to the Minister. need to make informed choices about the products that they are purchasing. I stress, probably for my husband Jim Shannon: Apologies, Madam Deputy Speaker. and children mostly, that we are not saying, “You can’t One massive issue has been the promotion of drink at enjoy a drink.” What we are saying very clearly is that cheap prices so that people can get drunk cheaper. we would like to encourage the nation’s drinking to be Would the Minister be sympathetic to discussing this responsible, and to help people not to be one of those issue with the industry—the Portman Group has been statistics that wreck lives. referred to—to try to address it? We believe that people have the right to accurate information to help them to make decisions about the Jo Churchill: I think the hon. Gentleman refers to products that they purchase, and we are committed to minimum unit pricing. As I say, we are refocusing on ensuring that the labelling on alcohol provides that. making sure that we are having a broad range of discussions. Progress has been made in relation to the UK CMO’s As he pointed out at the beginning of his intervention, low-risk drinking guidelines and other information on this is not something that sits within my responsibility. alcohol products, but we are not complacent. We will However, I have heard, and I am sure others have heard, continue to actively monitor the position and keep it his plea for that work, which does go on in other parts under review, and ensure that we level up so that people, of the United Kingdom. no matter what drink they choose, can get accurate Alcohol labelling is one part of wide-ranging cross- information from the product. Government work to address alcohol-related health We await the consultation to ensure that we take harms and their impact on life chances. The Government everyone with us, because it is important that we do are committed to supporting the most vulnerable at risk things in a measured but directed way in order to bring from alcohol misuse. We have an existing agenda on the benefits to the most people. I thank the hon. Member tackling alcohol-related harms, including an ambitious for Liverpool, Walton for introducing this Adjournment programme to establish specialist alcohol care teams in debate and for everything that we have discussed. Let us the worst-affected 25% of hospitals, because I do recognise hope that we can get there. some of the challenges within the workforce that the Question put and agreed to. hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton mentioned. We continue to support the children of alcohol-dependent 6.47 pm parents—a situation that wreaks such havoc. House adjourned. 341 27 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 342

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Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) Stuart Andrew Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Stuart Andrew Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) Owen Thompson Aylesford) (Con) (SNP) Jon Cruddas (Dagenham and Chris Elmore Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Owen Thompson Rainham) (Lab) Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP) John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) Chris Elmore Sir Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Con) Chris Elmore (Lab) Mr Gregory Campbell (East Carla Lockhart Judith Cummins (Bradford South) Chris Elmore Londonderry) (DUP) (Lab) Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab) Chris Elmore Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) Chris Elmore Mr Alistair Carmichael (rt. hon.) Wendy Chamberlain (Lab) (Orkney and Shetland) (LD) Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con) Stuart Andrew James Daly (Bury North) (Con) Stuart Andrew James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) Wendy Chamberlain Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con) Stuart Andrew (LD) Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stuart Andrew Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab) Chris Elmore Stocksbridge) (Con) David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Gareth Davies (Grantham and Stuart Andrew Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Stamford) (Con) Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and Owen Thompson Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/ Chris Elmore West Fife) (SNP) Co-op) Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) Owen Thompson Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) Mims Davies (Mid Sussex) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Stuart Andrew Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab) Chris Elmore Rainham) (Con) Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jo Churchill (Bury St Edmunds) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Stuart Andrew Feryal Clark (Enfield North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Howden) (Con) Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) Ben Everitt Mr Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough Stuart Andrew (Con) South and East Cleveland) (Con) Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Owen Thompson Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Falkirk) (SNP) Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) Stuart Andrew Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Stuart Andrew Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Middleton) (Con) Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) Chris Elmore James Cleverly (Braintree) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Stuart Andrew Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con) Stuart Andrew Cotswolds) (Con) Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) Stuart Andrew Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) Stuart Andrew Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Stuart Andrew (Con) Wallington) (Con) Leo Docherty (Aldershot) (Con) Stuart Andrew Damian Collins (Folkestone and Stuart Andrew Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Owen Thompson Hythe) (Con) Dunbartonshire) (SNP) Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab) Chris Elmore Co-op) Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract Chris Elmore Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Carla Lockhart and Castleford) (Lab) Valley) (DUP) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Michelle Donelan (Chippenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) Stuart Andrew Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP) Owen Thompson (Con) Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Owen Thompson Robert Courts (Witney) (Con) Stuart Andrew Cumnock) (SNP) Claire Coutinho (East Surrey) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ms Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) Stuart Andrew Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP) Owen Thompson (Con) Sir Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Stuart Andrew Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) Stuart Andrew Devon) (Con) (Con) Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Chris Elmore Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Chris Elmore Southwark) (Lab) Penarth) (Lab) Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) Stuart Andrew Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Oliver Dowden (Hertsmere) (Con) Stuart Andrew Angela Crawley (Lanark and Hamilton Owen Thompson Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con) Stuart Andrew East) (SNP) Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) Chris Elmore Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) 345 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote27 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 346

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Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) Stuart Andrew Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Stuart Andrew (Con) Green) (Con) James Duddridge (Rochford and Stuart Andrew Richard Fuller (North East Stuart Andrew Southend East) (Con) Bedfordshire) (Con) Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) (Lab) Chris Elmore Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Stuart Andrew Gill Furniss (Sheffield, Brightside and Chris Elmore Woodford Green) (Con) Hillsborough) (Lab) Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab) Chris Elmore Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) Chris Elmore Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP) Ben Lake Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Stuart Andrew Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Littlehampton) (Con) Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East Stuart Andrew Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Owen Thompson and Dinefwr) (Ind) Arran) (SNP) Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con) Stuart Andrew Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con) Stuart Andrew Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) Stuart Andrew Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Michael Ellis (Northampton North) Stuart Andrew Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Chris Elmore (Con) Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op) Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth Stuart Andrew Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP) Carla Lockhart East) (Con) John Glen (Salisbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab) Chris Elmore Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Mr Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Stuart Andrew op) Whitby) (Con) Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Michael Gove (Surrey Heath) (Con) Stuart Andrew George Eustice (Camborne and Stuart Andrew Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP) Owen Thompson Redruth) (Con) Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con) Stuart Andrew Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op) Chris Elmore Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Stuart Andrew Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con) Stuart Andrew Weald) (Con) Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Stuart Andrew Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) Owen Thompson Crayford) (Con) James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) Stuart Andrew Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Damian Green (Ashford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) Chris Elmore Tim Farron (Westmorland and Wendy Chamberlain (Lab) Lonsdale) (LD) Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) Chris Elmore Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) Wendy Chamberlain (Lab) Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con) Stuart Andrew Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) Chris Elmore Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Owen Thompson (Lab) Wishaw) (SNP) Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Stuart Andrew Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Stuart Andrew Downs) (Con) Hamilton West) (Ind) Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab) Chris Elmore Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) Stuart Andrew Kate Griffiths (Burton) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) James Grundy (Leigh) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent Stuart Andrew Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew North) (Con) Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) Owen Thompson Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Chris Elmore (SNP) Reddish) (Lab) Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab) Chris Elmore Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con) Stuart Andrew Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con) Stuart Andrew Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab) Chris Elmore Luke Hall (Thornbury and Yate) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con) Stuart Andrew Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) Chris Elmore Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab) Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) Stuart Andrew Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Con) (Lab) Matt Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Stuart Andrew Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) Stuart Andrew Wickford) (Con) (Con) Lucy Frazer (South East Stuart Andrew Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP) Ben Lake Cambridgeshire) (Con) Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull Chris Elmore George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew West and Hessle) (Lab) 347 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote27 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 348

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Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Chris Elmore Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Stuart Andrew Peckham) (Lab) Hampshire) (Con) Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and Stuart Andrew Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab) Chris Elmore North Essex) (Con) Trudy Harrison (Copeland) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mark Jenkinson (Workington) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) Stuart Andrew Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Stuart Andrew (Con) Outwood) (Con) Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and Stuart Andrew Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con) Stuart Andrew South Pembrokeshire) (Con) Boris Johnson (Uxbridge and South Stuart Andrew Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Chris Elmore Ruislip) (Con) Norwood) (Lab) Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and Stuart Andrew Sir John Hayes (South Holland and Stuart Andrew North Hykeham) (Con) The Deepings) (Con) Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Sir Oliver Heald (North East Stuart Andrew Hull North) (Lab) Hertfordshire) (Con) Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con) Stuart Andrew John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) Chris Elmore Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab) James Heappey (Wells) (Con) Stuart Andrew David Johnston (Wantage) (Con) Stuart Andrew Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con) Stuart Andrew Darren Jones (Bristol North West) Chris Elmore Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Stuart Andrew (Lab) Sheppey) (Con) Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) Stuart Andrew op) (Con) Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Owen Thompson Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Chris Elmore Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP) Rhymney) (Lab) Darren Henry (Broxtowe) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) Chris Elmore Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab) Chris Elmore Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Chris Elmore Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sunderland West) (Lab) Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale Chris Elmore Mr Richard Holden (North West Stuart Andrew East) (Lab) Durham) (Con) Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Stuart Andrew Kate Hollern (Blackburn) (Lab) Chris Elmore Atcham) (Con) Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) Stuart Andrew Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Gillian Keegan (Chichester) (Con) Stuart Andrew Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con) Stuart Andrew Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles Chris Elmore Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab) Chris Elmore South) (Lab) Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP) Owen Thompson Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab) Chris Elmore Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) Chris Elmore (Lab) John Howell (Henley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab) Chris Elmore Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) Stuart Andrew (Con) Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Stuart Andrew Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con) Stuart Andrew Border) (Con) Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con) Stuart Andrew Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con) Stuart Andrew Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab) Chris Elmore Jane Hunt (Loughborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) Stuart Andrew John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh Stuart Andrew (Con) and Selkirk) (Con) Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con) Stuart Andrew Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) Chris Elmore Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) Mr William Wragg (Lab) (Con) Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Mr Alister Jack (Dumfries and Stuart Andrew Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP) Owen Thompson Galloway) (Con) Andrea Leadsom (South Stuart Andrew Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) Wendy Chamberlain Northamptonshire) (Con) (LD) Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) Stuart Andrew Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew 349 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote27 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 350

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Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Chris Elmore Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Shields) (Lab) Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Chris Elmore Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) Stuart Andrew Neston) (Lab) (Con) Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Chris Elmore Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) Stuart Andrew Barr) (Lab) (Con) Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ladywood) (Lab) Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) Stuart Andrew Alan Mak (Havant) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) Chris Elmore Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater Stuart Andrew (Lab) and West Somerset) (Con) Kit Malthouse (North West Stuart Andrew David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP) Owen Thompson Hampshire) (Con) Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) Chris Elmore Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) Stuart Andrew Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con) Anthony Mangnall (Con) Mark Logan (Bolton North East) Stuart Andrew Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Christian Matheson (City of Chester) Chris Elmore Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Lab) Eccles) (Lab) Mrs Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con) Stuart Andrew Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con) Stuart Andrew Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Stuart Andrew Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Stuart Andrew Upminster) (Con) Cleveleys) (Con) Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stuart Andrew Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Stoke) (Con) Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con) Stuart Andrew Johnny Mercer (Plymouth, Moor View) Stuart Andrew Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Stuart Andrew (Con) Shoreham) (Con) Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) Stuart Andrew Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Con) (Green) Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and Stuart Andrew Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab) Chris Elmore East Thurrock) (Con) Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Chris Elmore Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) Chris Elmore Oak) (Lab) (Lab) Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con) Stuart Andrew Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con) Stuart Andrew Amanda Milling (Cannock Chase) Stuart Andrew Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Chris Elmore (Con) Morden) (Lab) Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) Chris Elmore Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) Stuart Andrew Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow Owen Thompson (Con) South) (SNP) Gagan Mohindra (South West Stuart Andrew Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Owen Thompson Hertfordshire) (Con) Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North Owen Thompson John McDonnell (Hayes and Bell Ribeiro-Addy West) Harlington) (Lab) Damien Moore (Southport) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton Chris Elmore Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con) Stuart Andrew South East) (Lab) Layla Moran (Oxford West and Wendy Chamberlain Conor McGinn (St Helens North) Chris Elmore Abingdon) (LD) (Lab) Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) Stuart Andrew Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Chris Elmore Stephen Morgan (Portsmouth South) Chris Elmore Tyne North) (Lab) (Lab) Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Stuart Andrew Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) Stuart Andrew Falmouth) (Con) (Con) Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North Owen Thompson David Morris (Morecambe and Stuart Andrew East) (SNP) Lunesdale) (Con) Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con) Stuart Andrew Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab) Chris Elmore Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Chris Elmore Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Royton) (Lab) Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) Stuart Andrew Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) John Mc Nally (Falkirk) (SNP) Owen Thompson Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Stuart Andrew Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na Owen Thompson Nantwich) (Con) h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) Stuart Andrew Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) 351 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote27 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 352

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David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Stuart Andrew Chris Philp (Croydon South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con) Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Chris Elmore James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Devonport) (Lab/Co-op) op) Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and Stuart Andrew Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Stuart Andrew North Ipswich) (Con) Cornwall) (Con) Rebecca Pow (Taunton Deane) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andrew Murrison (South West Stuart Andrew Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) Chris Elmore Wiltshire) (Con) (Lab/Co-op) Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab) Chris Elmore Victoria Prentis (Banbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Stuart Andrew Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con) Stuart Andrew Chislehurst) (Con) Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Owen Thompson Will Quince (Colchester) (Con) Stuart Andrew Renfrewshire North) (SNP) Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) Chris Elmore Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab) Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) Stuart Andrew Lia Nici (Great Grimsby) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) John Nicolson (Ochil and South Owen Thompson Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con) Stuart Andrew Perthshire) (SNP) Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) Chris Elmore Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Stuart Andrew (Lab) Southampton North) (Con) John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Stuart Andrew Herefordshire) (Con) Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore op) Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Co-op) Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab) Chris Elmore Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Chris Elmore Penge) (Lab) Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) Owen Thompson (SNP) Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Chris Elmore Hyde) (Lab) Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain Nicola Richards (West Bromwich East) Stuart Andrew Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Chris Elmore (Con) Central) (Lab) Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South Chris Elmore Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Chris Elmore and Whiston) (Lab) Thamesmead) (Lab) Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con) Stuart Andrew Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) Stuart Andrew Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Con) Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) Owen Thompson Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP) Carla Lockhart (SNP) Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con) Stuart Andrew Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) Chris Elmore (Lab) Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP) Carla Lockhart Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con) Stuart Andrew Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) Stuart Andrew Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Priti Patel (Witham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dean Russell (Watford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) Stuart Andrew Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Chris Elmore (Con) Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op) Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con) Stuart Andrew Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Ben Lake Meirionnydd) (PC) Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) Chris Elmore (Lab) Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) Stuart Andrew Paul Scully (Sutton and Cheam) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con) Mark Harper Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Chris Elmore Andrew Selous (South West Stuart Andrew Woolwich) (Lab) Bedfordshire) (Con) John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) Stuart Andrew Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Grant Shapps (Welwyn Hatfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con) Antony Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con) Stuart Andrew Higginbotham Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) Chris Elmore Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) Chris Elmore Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab/Co-op) Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Chris Elmore Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) Stuart Andrew Sunderland South) (Lab) (Con) 353 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote27 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 354

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Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) Owen Thompson Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab) Chris Elmore (SNP) Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Chris Elmore Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) Chris Elmore Finsbury) (Lab) (Lab) Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab) Chris Elmore David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood Stuart Andrew Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew and Pinner) (Con) Kelly Tolhurst (Rochester and Strood) Stuart Andrew Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab) Chris Elmore Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) Stuart Andrew Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) Owen Thompson (Con) Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) Chris Elmore Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con) Stuart Andrew Anne-Marie Trevelyan (Berwick-upon- Stuart Andrew Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Tweed) (Con) Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) Stuart Andrew Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) Stuart Andrew Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Royston Smith (Southampton, Itchen) Stuart Andrew Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Stuart Andrew (Con) Malling) (Con) Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) Chris Elmore Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Amanda Solloway (Derby North) Stuart Andrew Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab) Chris Elmore Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Stuart Andrew Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Stuart Andrew Weybridge) (Con) Cambridgeshire) (Con) Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) Stuart Andrew Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) Chris Elmore (Lab) Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) Stuart Andrew Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) Owen Thompson (Con) (SNP) Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston Stuart Andrew Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North Stuart Andrew North) East) (Con) Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) (Con) Stuart Andrew John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con) Stuart Andrew David Warburton (Somerset and Stuart Andrew Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Frome) (Con) Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) Stuart Andrew Matt Warman (Boston and Skegness) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Wendy Chamberlain Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Easter Ross) (LD) Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Gary Streeter (South West Devon) Stuart Andrew Claudia Webbe (Leicester East) (Ind) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Con) Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Chris Elmore Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Green) (Lab) Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Matt Western (Warwick and Chris Elmore Graham Stringer (Blackley and Chris Elmore Leamington) (Lab) Broughton) (Lab) Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Stuart Andrew Graham Stuart (Beverley and Stuart Andrew Kent) (Con) Holderness) (Con) Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Stuart Andrew Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con) Stuart Andrew Derbyshire) (Con) Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Chris Elmore Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con) Stuart Andrew Test) (Lab) James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Owen Thompson Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest Mr William Wragg Ayrshire) (SNP) West) (Con) Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab) Chris Elmore Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con) Stuart Andrew Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab) Chris Elmore John Whittingdale (Malden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab) Chris Elmore Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) Chris Elmore Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) Owen Thompson (Lab) (SNP) Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) Stuart Andrew Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/ Chris Elmore James Wild (North West Norfolk) Stuart Andrew Co-op) (Con) 355 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote27 APRIL 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 356

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Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) Stuart Andrew Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Stuart Andrew Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) Ben Lake Southam) (Con) Gavin Williamson (Montgomeryshire) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab) Chris Elmore Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP) Carla Lockhart Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) Stuart Andrew Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Con) Pete Wishart (Perth and North Owen Thompson Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab) Chris Elmore Perthshire) (SNP)

27WH 27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 28WH

people in need—and people are in need in growing Westminster Hall numbers across the globe, which is why an effective and efficient policy is so important. The world remains a Tuesday 27 April 2021 dangerous place—from armed conflict, from growing resource and climate conflict and from growing aggression and human rights abuses in China, Russia and other [PHILIP DAVIES in the Chair] countries, putting even more people at risk. Despite those growing risks, I am unsure whether there is another Support for Asylum Seekers area where Tory rhetoric on global Britain clashes more Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Order, harshly with the reality of this Government’s policies, 25 February). given the planned cuts to our armed forces and the massive reduction to our international aid budget, despite [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] manifesto commitments. 9.25 am Many of the people in need will reach our shores, and when they arrive, we have responsibilities—legal duties. Philip Davies (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members It is essential that we live up to our responsibilities— that there have been some changes to normal practice in responsibilities to asylum seekers and responsibilities to order to support the new hybrid arrangements. Timings the British public, who want to see an effective system of debates have been amended to allow technical that not only weeds out the tiny, minute, fraction of arrangements to be made for the next debate. There will bogus claims fast but, equally quickly, resettles the be suspensions between debates. I remind Members overwhelming majority of genuine asylum seekers at participating, physically and virtually, that they must the best price for the UK taxpayer. Sadly, that is in no arrive for the start of a debate in Westminster Hall and way what we have currently.Instead, we have a fragmented are expected to remain for the entire debate. I must system, badly mismanaged by the Home Office and, at remind Members participating virtually that they are the very start of the process, getting even the basics visible at all times, both to one another and to us in the wrong. The British Red Cross has reported that 81% of Boothroyd Room. If Members attending virtually have asylum seekers do not even receive information in their any technical problems, they should email the Westminster own language. They are not told what is happening and Hall Clerks’ email address. Members attending physically will happen to them; and two thirds did not get health should clean their spaces before they use them and screening, even during the pandemic. before they leave the room. I remind Members that Then the Home Office shunts people into short-term Mr Speaker has stated that masks should be worn in asylum accommodation while their eligibility for support Westminster Hall. is assessed. Usually, people should then be moved to dispersal accommodation across the UK, where they will 9.26 am live until a decision is reached on their full application Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab): —often after a lengthy delay. During that period, people I beg to move, are prevented from working. They have no choice over That this House has considered the effectiveness of asylum where or how they are housed, and they are provided accommodation and the dispersal scheme in providing support with just £39.63 a week to support themselves. That is a for asylum seekers. far cry from the £150,000 a year that the Prime Minister I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the gets, and he is apparently still reliant on someone else to Register of Members’ Financial Interests for the support cover redecorating bills. that I have received, for research capacity in my office in This is a crumbling, pernicious system, which has relation to my work on asylum seekers, refugees and directly contributed to covid infections, crime and chaos, migrants,from RAMP,the Refugee,Asylum and Migration but it is overseen—ironically—by the Department with Policy Project, which I thank also for supporting the overall responsibility for tackling crime and disorder in hon. Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David the UK: a Department that has been warned so many Simmonds) and me in seeking this debate. It is a pleasure times about this inhumane, inefficient and expensive to serve under you in the Chair, Mr Davies. system, which the National Audit Office and Public Let me start with some more thanks to all colleagues, Accounts Committee have laid bare. The National across almost every party, who have backed the debate, Audit Office reported last July that the system that and to all those organisations that not only have briefed the Government have adopted caused costs to escalate for this debate, but work on this issue day in, day out, by 28% to £568 for each accommodated asylum seeker, supporting some of the most vulnerable people across and saw a 96% increase in short-term, more expensive our country. I thank all my constituents who have accommodation. In November last year, the Public messaged me to bemoan the awful system imposed by Accounts Committee warned of a system in crisis and the Home Office, and all those out there who retain recommended: faith in the UK’s historic contribution to shaping “The Home Office should, within three months, set out a clear international law on asylum and our equally historic plan for how it will quickly and safely reduce the use of hotels and contribution in not just settling asylum seekers in our ensure that asylum seekers’ accommodation meets their individual country, but benefiting from the contribution that they needs.” have made to enrich our country’s economy and culture I look forward to hearing from the Minister today, six over very many decades. months later, how that is being delivered. Some people seek to cloak themselves in our flag, but Understandably, the Minister will say that covid is wish to sidestep or even ignore our traditions and our responsible for some of the rising costs and inefficiencies historic sense of duty in always being there to support of his Department’s policies. I hope he will outline 29WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 30WH

[Neil Coyle] Home Office cannot even give a timeframe for when their cases will be concluded. Perhaps the Minister can when those costs will fall and the strategy adopted in tell us today when and how the Home Office will cut the response to repeat NAO and PAC concerns. I also hope horrific backlog that his Government have created. he will acknowledge how Home Office policies go back The vast majority of asylum seekers have their claims to before covid. There were more than 1,000 people in upheld—more than 90% for many countries—so the hotels in October 2019, before covid was identified in delay is a needless burden that affects the asylum seeker China, let alone before it began to be responded to by and also imposes massive cost penalties on the taxpayer: a Government headed by a Prime Minister whose own first, in expensive, avoidable temporary accommodation; delayed decisions contributed to covid deaths in the UK. secondly, because the Home Office prevents people I will not repeat his sickening comments about piling up from working; and thirdly, because of the avoidable and the bodies, as they are so raw for the 127,000 families lengthy delays to decisions and eventual settlement and who have lost loved ones. work. I think the level of interest in this debate is due in part At the end of September 2020, there were 3,621 Sudanese, to the dramatic rise in hotel and other inappropriate Syrian and Eritrean nationals who had been waiting accommodation use. At the end of February, almost longer than six months for a decision on their application. 8,700 people were living in hotels across the UK, according The grant rate across those three countries at initial to the Refugee Council. It is important to remember decision was 94% in the year ending March 2020. It that the increased number of people living in contingency could be faster, but it requires a focus from the Home accommodation is due not to a rise in applications, but Office that simply has not been there, and that I suspect to a Home Office backlog. Also, these are hotels where we will not see from the Minister today. people might stay for a short stop en route, not for a The system was bad enough before covid, but covid holiday or extended break, as they are often on the edge has brutally exposed the inadequacies of the asylum of towns, far from amenities and certainly far from the process, with routine delays, inflated costs, needless healthcare services needed by people who have been waits, and prevention from work, even for the one in through trauma elsewhere, and who in some cases have seven asylum claimants who have a professional background acute mental health needs. in health and social care. People that this country could In London, more than 6,000 asylum seekers have desperately done with working in our services to are in hotels, and roughly 1,200 are children, some support people through the crisis were prevented from unaccompanied. Again, this is not a holiday; it is isolating, doing so by Government policy. lonely, and also exposed. “Line of Duty” has made But no one could have been prepared for the horrors more people familiar with the term OCGs. As a direct of the Napier barracks—a cross-party issue on which, I result of Home Office policy, organised crime groups think, 45 questions have been asked since January from have targeted asylum seekers in Home Office-funded all parts of the House. The interest was because Napier premises to engage them in illegal work and other exposed the worst excesses of this system, which fails crime, including drug trafficking. Vulnerable people are people fleeing torture, genocide, war and persecution, made worse off by the Home Office, with criminals but also fails the taxpayer, our historic contribution and benefiting from Home Office policy. The fact that the the British tradition of not passing by on the other side Department oversees law and order policy in the UK is of the street. The Napier barracks issue is likely to a joke when it cannot even ensure that the premises it result in further costs to the taxpayer, with legal cases funds are off limits to OCGs. resulting from this inhumane system imposed on people The people in hotels were originally scheduled to be fleeing to the UK for help, but forced to live in moved out by March 2021. In February, the Home accommodation that public health bodies had said was Office announced its intention to move people out of unfit for use and likely to increase the risks of infection. hotels again, through Operation Oak, but the process The Government claimed a few years ago that the has yet to be completed, and the Home Office has said Home Office was reviewing the hostile environment, that it simply intends to complete it by the summer. I but it was proved to be only too alive and kicking hope the Minister will today confirm the new date, full during the pandemic, perhaps inevitably under a Home plans and staging post for delivery. The fear is that this Secretary who proved to be the most hostile of bosses. is still “Operation Acorn”. Will the Minister update us today on where that review Of course, some costs in the system are avoidable if is, or if it even still exists? Napier shows that, at the decisions are made quicker. The Home Office website the same time as wider Government was telling the still claims, ludicrously, that someone seeking asylum public to stay home, isolate where possible and protect will “usually” have a decision within six months. That is the NHS, this bit of the Government, the bit that simply untrue and has been for some time. More than solely determines where asylum seekers live, chose to 64,000 people are awaiting decisions, according to the accommodate people in dormitories of 28: communal, Refugee Council, and the British Red Cross says that unhygienic spaces that contravened Government guidance 72% have waited more than six months. Perhaps the and public health recommendations—a shameful episode. Minister will update us on the average time today. I will The shadow Minister for Immigration, my hon. Friend be amazed if colleagues can stay in their seats both here the Member for Halifax (Holly Lynch), wrote to the in the room and at home, given the previous claims and Government in December calling for a review of covid the average delays that we see for our constituents. safety in all establishments being used for accommodation. I will give two examples from Bermondsey and Old In a response at the end of the year, the Home Office Southwark. I have raised the cases of an Eritrean woman claimed it was committed to upholding statutory duties, and a Mongolian man seeking asylum since 2017. Not including providing safe covid-compliant accommodation only do they not have a decision four years later, but the to those who need it, but failed to undertake that review. 31WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 32WH

Does the Minister have an answer or explanation for for a place-based, more equitable approach to dispersal that failure today, or better still an apology to the has been consistently raised by the Local Government people put in those horrific circumstances? Association, which resulted in the Home Office and Sadly, instead of learning from this hideous mistake, Local Government Chief Executive Group, co-chaired which rightly caused public outrage, Ministers planned by the LGA, with representation of each region and to extend the use of communal rooms, with proposals devolved Administration, established in 2019 to develop for cabin-style accommodation on former MOD land a 10-year plan for a more equitable distribution of in Barton Stacey. The indications are that Ministers support. I hope the Minister will give us an update on have learned nothing, but I hope we will hear today that that equitable distribution today. Napier will be no longer used and other proposals will Others suggest a local authority public health-driven be dropped. approach. Incidents in hotels and barracks in recent I asked for this debate not just to highlight months have highlighted the importance of advance the issue of short-term, costly and dangerous asylum notice, engagement and the sharing of data, so that accommodation, but to look at the wider problem that local services are aware of who is in their locality and the Government have created surrounding long-term what their health needs are. housing through the dispersal scheme, introduced under Sadly,as things stand, the Local Government Association the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999, which was states that the dispersal structure has been abandoned designed to try to ensure an even spread of support during covid. It is unclear how it will return or what is across the country. However, under that scheme, local in place for when the pandemic ends. Partnership is authorities reach voluntary agreements with the Home needed on this issue. Will the Minister tell us how Office to accept asylum seekers, and the Home Office relations will be rebuilt? How will the Government has not negotiated well. address local authority concerns and deliver a more Many local authorities have no agreement with the affordable system to the taxpayer, in partnership with Home Office at all. In Scotland, only Glasgow City the communities that will provide the ultimate long-term Council accommodates asylum seekers. At the end of address for asylum seekers? At a minimum, I hope the last year, 223 local authorities throughout the UK were Minister will today explain plans, if any exist, for how taking no asylum seekers. The system is simply not the Home Office will move away from its over-reliance working. I hope the Minister will explain how the on emergency accommodation and improve information Home Office is delivering the Home Affairs Committee sharing with councils and health bodies. recommendation that it should pursue the commitment I end by quoting one of the amazing organisations he made to a more equitable and sustainable system by that I thanked at the outset, the British Red Cross, expanding the areas participating in dispersal. whose report “Far from a home: why asylum Resources are, of course, part of the issue. Councils accommodation needs reform” is out today. It is based stress that after a decade of cuts to their budgets, there on the real experiences of people living in asylum is no incentive to participate. The costs to local authorities accommodation, including barracks and finds that supporting asylum seekers come from social care, “too many asylum-seeking women, men and children in the UK homelessness services and other additional support needs. are living in unsafe, unsanitary and isolated accommodation. There appears to be no strategy or plan from the Home This falls far short of expected standards, for months and even Office to address this issue to work with local authorities years at a time. These issues have been compounded by mounting or better support asylum seekers moving out of contingency backlogs in asylum application decisions in recent years, the accommodation and into communities. failure to secure enough community dispersal accommodation and more recently, the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic.” The ICIBI report in March stated that there was little focus on helping residents to prepare for next steps Worryingly, the report also suggests that: and next to zero focus on driving up the quality of “Far from addressing these issues, the UK Government’s New the accommodation provided. Despite promises that Plan for Immigration…includes plans to house people seeking improvements to accommodation be made, there is asylum in reception centres.” increased use of inappropriate emergency sites without It goes on: wraparound support. “As we have witnessed in the use of military barracks, institutional- The 10-year contracts the Home Office is using are style accommodation can have significant negative impacts on valued at £4 billion, but information about how these people’s mental and physical health, as well as isolating people services are performing remains closely guarded. Perhaps seeking asylum from wider communities, ultimately reducing Government secrecy is unsurprising when it comes to social integration and cohesion…We believe this would be a admitting failings or trying to improve services. mistake.” I hope the Minister will tell us his plans to address I wholeheartedly agree with the report’s findings. I these issues today and when that plan might start. hope the Minister will give an initial response to the There is currently no sustainable plan. The only prospect report in his comments, reassure us that the Home is more of the terrible same, or worse, as numbers Office will no longer run a dangerous policy that puts continue to rise and costs continue to escalate for emergency people at risk of ill health and exposed to organised temporary accommodation for asylum seekers and costs crime, and explain how he will seek to restore our proud to the taxpayers. tradition of being there at times of need. There are, of course, options on the table. The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government Philip Davies (in the Chair): I am going to have to might be better placed to provide some supported impose a time limit, beginning at four minutes and accommodation. Local authorities are often overlooked rapidly dropping to three minutes for people further by this authoritarian, centralised Government. The need down the list. 33WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 34WH

9.42 am where that is in short supply; by definition, that means David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) that people are being placed in parts of the country that (Con) [V]: It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship do not already have a significant housing waiting list. today, Mr Davies. I commence, like the hon. Member Secondly, we need to ensure, given that around two for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil Coyle), by thirds to three quarters of people who apply for asylum drawing the House’s attention to my entry in the Register in the UK are granted it, that asylum is the start of a of Members’ Financial Interests as a principal of the path to integration. Refugee, Asylum and Migration Policy Project and as a So, my ask today of the Minister is fairly simple—it is vice-president of the Local Government Association. a shopping list of things that we need to do better and It is vital to put today’s debate into its context. The that we can consider as part of this wider consultation. hostile environment and a move away from treating First, we need to think about how dispersal is part of a asylum seekers as simply part of the wider welfare path to integration, given those figures about people system began in the early 2000s, as the Blair Government being granted asylum. Secondly,we must ensure, regarding recognised the political toxicity of the public perception things such as move-on period and the recognition that that people newly arrived in the UK would be able to most people who come for asylum in the UK will potentially jump social housing waiting lists. True or remain, that we are realistic about how we support them not, that was a serious political concern that they faced to integrate. Thirdly and finally, and this is the most at the time. important point, there must be real consideration of In the mid-2000s, Andy Burnham, then the Immigration how Departments work together. The challenge for Minister and now the Mayor of Greater Manchester, local authorities and communities often arises because signed off on the implementation of dispersal, creating the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local a new route for asylum seekers, whereby they were Government and the Department for Education are not placed in parts of the country where local authorities, aligned with the Home Office. So, I ask the Minister: recognising that there was a surplus of housing locally, can we please ensure that the approach to this issue is offered to accommodate them and to provide them with joined up across Government so much better than it is support in those local communities. Subsequently, the today? Home Office looked to economise on the cost of delivering those services, by delivering through a set of national Philip Davies (in the Chair): I now have to drop the contracts with private companies. time limit to three minutes. Hard as it is to believe for those of us in London constituencies and city constituencies with lengthy housing 9.46 am waiting lists, there are parts of the country, such as Stoke-on-Trent, that were proactive in seeking to be Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) dispersal areas because they recognised the benefits to (SNP): It is a pleasure to work under your chairmanship, their communities of bringing in new people who could Mr Davies. revitalise the schools and other public services on which I commend the hon. Member for Bermondsey and their communities depended. Old Southwark (Neil Coyle) for securing this debate at The other significant factor remains the distribution this important time. There can be no doubt that, since of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, which is the beginning of the pandemic, no group of people has not a matter for the Home Office but sits with the been more adversely affected than those seeking asylum Department for Education, under the Children Act 1989. or refuge. People arrive here in a society where the It means that local authorities that have ports of entry— biggest concerns seem to be the safety and welfare of airports or sea ports where people arrive into the UK—bear citizens, but only of those born here, or beaches that are significant responsibilities. The Home Office’s national only overwhelmed by those looking to top up their tans, transfer scheme has been a step towards addressing that or that the right calibre of boats are the ones to be seen distribution. from the white cliffs of Dover. This is the disunited The other big part of that picture is that refugees, kingdom in which we live. once they are granted that status in the UK and have The Home Office has placed vulnerable asylum seekers the right to asylum, often do not stay in the communities in squalid accommodation at short notice, often for where they are placed through dispersal. That is why we months at a time, with no money, no certainty and no see very large numbers of refugees living in London and prospects. A so-called temporary solution has become the south-east of England, for example. They have not normalised practice. In a very real sense, the asylum been placed there by the Home Office, but have moved support system contorts what should be a source of there under their own volition. pride for any country—to help those in their time of It is very clear from my engagement with contractors greatest need. Instead, it is a de facto and grim pilot who have administered the scheme that the new set of scheme for the UK Government’s shameful and Home Office contracts has represented a significant unapologetic attitude towards those who have already improvement on what was there before. The funding been traumatised by arduous and terrifying journeys. that is available, the flexibility and the volunteering of Too often, people are met with a system that is mired in new local authorities that are keen to be dispersal areas suspicion, control and surveillance, with real pressure have all helped to ease some of the pressure. points around homelessness, especially for those who However, we recognise that there are remaining issues are refused asylum and who are then routinely rendered with the system. In particular, as the hon. Member for destitute here in the UK. Bermondsey and Old Southwark alluded to, there is a Welcome measures were instituted at the start of very clear desire, first, to ensure that asylum seekers are lockdown, but most have now been withdrawn by a not competing with local people to access social housing Home Office that is sadly determined to get back to its 35WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 36WH business-as-usual routines. It announced on 15 September, of confirmed refugees whom the city has embraced apparently without consulting or gaining the consent of previously. Our city’s cluster limit ratio of 79% is greatly local authorities or their public health directors, that it in excess of even Birmingham’s 29%, and our city would restart evictions of refused asylum seekers. Most council has recently had to challenge proposals repeatedly of the evictions started in covid-19 hotspots, such as made over the course of the past year to increase Halifax and Manchester. As Glasgow City Council numbers further. Sorry, but we can do no more. recently commented, that is an “unconscionable” action Dispersal area local authorities of all complexions and cannot continue. across the region have been united in their concerns Our overarching sense is that this pandemic has been about ever more pressure being placed on those few particularly adverse for refugees’ communities, in terms dispersal areas, when so many authorities have done of extensive social isolation, escalating mental health nothing. There has been a tendency to place people in problems and further severe poverty. In Scotland and areas with lower value housing, just because it is cheaper. indeed across the UK, the pandemic has reconfirmed Yet the consequences of doing so and the impacts on the inadequacies of the Home Office’s so-called support local services are stark. The council has found itself system. challenging totally inappropriate accommodation, including Almost 200 people tested positive for coronavirus unsustainable hotel accommodation. There are also after an outbreak at a Kent barracks earlier this year. A much more serious concerns about radicalisation. Some High Court hearing heard that asylum seekers were left accommodation is in extremely inappropriate locations, powerless to protect themselves, but the Home Office where vulnerable individuals may be targeted by extreme offered no apology at all. Perhaps that was right—no and criminal groups. I repeat that we are proud to have apology can be made for institutionalised aggression done much more than almost any other area to welcome towards those who want nothing more than to be free of refugees and asylum seekers, but it is time for other violence and persecution, but who instead are hindered areas to stop grandstanding and actually do something. and hidden behind the iron curtain of this right-wing Tory Government. I stand here today for my country, 9.52 am desperate to offer support to our newest Scots. Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab) [V]: The Home Office is knowingly presiding over an asylum 9.49 am accommodation and dispersal system that sees some of Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con) [V]: I the most vulnerable people in the UK forced into squalid am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, and overcrowded accommodation in dilapidated barracks Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds) and the or rodent-infested hotels.Covid-19 rips through dormitories hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark and medical attention is slow to arrive or missing entirely. (Neil Coyle) for calling this pertinent debate. There is no access to support services or advice. Large The issue is extremely current, given the situation we groups of people have lived in small, unventilated rooms have seen in the English channel and the increasing through lockdown. Food packages provided to children, pressures on dispersal areas. I am pleased that the which were supposed to be nutritious, fell far below any Home Secretary and the Home Office are taking robust such standard and included pasta floating in milk and action to address those issues, with a new plan for even raw chicken. There are reports of malnourishment, immigration, which I entirely support, by taking action in one case resulting in hospitalisation and in another to remove those who have no right to be here and better preventing a mother from breastfeeding her child. deterring illegal migration, while supporting those who The people in question have fled war and violence are in genuine need. and are in desperate need of peace, security and stability. As a dispersal area, Stoke-on-Trent has contributed Post-traumatic stress disorder is common among those far more than most areas to the dispersal scheme since housed in the accommodation. Yet they are subject to its inception, but we can take only so much. It is about banging on the door and an instruction that they will be fairness. It is now time for other towns and cities to moved, sometimes the next morning and sometimes learn from our example and do their bit. Far too within the next 20 minutes, to a new, unknown location. frequently, hon. Members advocate doing more, but West London Welcome, an inspirational charity in when it comes to taking action on places becoming my constituency, has been supporting asylum seekers dispersal areas, they do nothing. Numerous local authority housed in contingency accommodation hotels in west areas have not resettled a single refugee. Sadly, because London since last summer with food, clothes, advice, of the pressures on Stoke-on-Trent we have now reached access to legal aid, and GP and school registrations. It the point where additional demands on already stretched currently supports 300 people and has had 1,300 visits local services, whether those are schools, health services from asylum seekers to its free clothing shop in the last or social services, are entirely unsustainable. We have four months. I shall describe some of the people it has resettled more than anywhere else in the west midlands helped. and now, as part of Operation Oak, we are expected to M, an asylum-seeking teenager, was dispersed in take more. mid-February from Fulham to Liverpool and then Stoke- I thank the Minister for hearing the concerns of on-Trent. In temporary accommodation in Liverpool, Stoke-on-Trent MPs and the leader of the city council M had no money and no food so West London Welcome recently.Right now, on average, one person in every 250 in sent him hardship money and organised food to be sent Stoke-on-Trent’s population is an asylum seeker. In one to him from the office of my hon. Friend the Member area of my constituency, the figure is closer to one in 80 for Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Johnson) and Scouse and, in some parts of the city, it is as high as one in 30. Kitchen. R and her husband and children were left In addition to those asylum seekers, there are thousands waiting until the very last minute at a hotel in Fulham 37WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 38WH

[Andy Slaughter] adjacent to a dual carriageway with a poor safety record. It is also next to a Ministry of Defence firing and then moved to Croydon. It turned out that their range and a shooting school, so those who have come to 14-year-old son had covid-19—they were not tested this country seeking refuge from war must listen to the before being moved—and he ended up in the intensive sound of gunshots resonating over the skies. care unit. From there they have been moved to Hounslow, I know it is really challenging to find suitable which has meant three schools in two months. accommodation, but this can best be achieved by working F, her husband and children were at the same hotel with local authorities. I would respectfully point out to and she contracted covid-19 while pregnant. Immediately my hon. Friend the Minister that the Local Government after giving birth, she was sent to the ICU where she Association can be his friend. It is really important to remained for three months. Her family were moved to find integrated solutions that involve funding following east London, despite promises to find them housing those who are seeking asylum. We know that a significant near the hospital where she remained in intensive care. proportion of their claims will be granted, but I would When she came out of the hospital in March and joined like to see more work across Government, perhaps with her family, they still had not been given the £8 per week the MHCLG and the Department for Education, because support money. The children have not been to school so many of these asylum seekers are children—children for two months. S, her husband and children were given who need school places and who need help to learn notice at 8 pm to move at 7.30 am the next day, but were English so that they can go on to play a fulfilling role in not told where they were going. our society. Those stories are the bitter reality of the system over Moving forward, it is important for us to remember which the Government presides. The care of asylum that these are people, who need our help and who have seekers has been contracted out to a hierarchy of poor come here fleeing persecution and war. There are those providers and profit-taking middlemen, but the buck on all sides of the House who wish to find a way to stops with the Government. They should be ashamed make sure that the tone of this debate is constructive and embarrassed, but those are not words we associate and helpful; not just pointing out the problems, but with this Home Secretary; rather, there is a feeling that seeking to find solutions so that we can do better. this is all as she intends.

9.55 am 9.59 am Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: (Con) [V]: It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Thank you, it is a pleasure to serve under your Mr Davies, and thank you to the hon. Member for chairmanship, Mr Davies. I thank my hon. Friend the Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil Coyle) and my Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Coyle) for securing this debate. Pinner (David Simmonds) for having secured this important The Government are now presiding over the worst debate. asylum accommodation shortage in history, and the I want to reassure my hon. Friend the Minister that I result is that almost a fifth of all supported people have a great deal of sympathy with him in understanding seeking asylum are currently living in hostels and other the complexities of finding suitable accommodation large, full-board facilities. We can thank the Home and working to make sure that those seeking asylum in Office and their extreme mismanagement of contract this country are properly integrated. Indeed, in my providers for that. In Leeds, like many other parts of 18 months in the role, some of the most inspiring visits country, asylum seekers have been living in hotels round were ones that I had in Bradford, Southampton and the city. Contrary to what the Daily Mail would have south-east London, talking to the volunteers who are you believe, the conditions make them completely unfit helping in the process of finding routes for asylum for short-term emergency accommodation, let alone the seekers to integrate into communities—finding the specialist months many have endured. support services they need; finding the medical attention Around 40 people recently took part in protest in one they require on their arrival to the UK; and helping such hotel, drawing attention to the poor living conditions, with their children and integration into schools, which lack of nutritional food and mistreatment by hotel staff. is a crucial part of their journey in the UK. One man was on hunger strike for nine days. With the I would like to extend my thanks to the Southampton help of my office, I have pursued complaints about the and Winchester Visitors Group and point out that these standard of the accommodation and care provided in volunteers and support services are almost invariably Leeds, and we discovered a worrying picture. Residents found in significant centres of population. It is no are subject to strict rationing for the most basic supplies surprise that we find organisations working in cities such as soap and toilet paper, both of which are often such as Southampton, which has a proud track record unavailable. Many people to whom I have spoken have of helping refugees and asylum seekers. Indeed, the also been denied access to hygiene facilities. Some asylum Swaythling ward in my constituency has one of the seekers only have one set of clothes, and are unable to highest numbers of asylum seekers in supported wash them. One resident reported that he had not been accommodation in the city. Therefore, it will also come given clean bedsheets for a month. Complaints have as no surprise that I regard as deeply suspect any been made about insufficient and unhealthyfood. Residents proposals to site asylum seekers away from services did have fresh juice and milk for months, but after they need. complaining about other elements of their living conditions The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark that was removed by the hotel manager: a punitive has mentioned the site at Barton Stacey, which is not measure that sent a clear message to asylum seekers only remote from services such as running water, but telling them not to complain. 39WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 40WH

Worryingly,there have been severe difficulties in accessing that, but would urge that it does not include the dis- dental and medical care, and legal help. Many residents aggregated model proposed for provincial towns such have no phone credit or do not speak much English and as Bracknell, and on which Bracknell Forest Council is so cannot call for help themselves, and yet staff fail to currently being consulted. The reasons are persuasive. assist them. In one case, a resident was in severe pain That small unitary council does not have the space or because of a broken foot yet his prescription was not resources to deal with over 200 families. It is about fire collected for a week. It appears that the regional contract safety, it is about community cohesion, community handling of the coronavirus crisis added to the misery tension, overcrowding, building regulations, environmental of those living there. On more than five occasions, health. The list goes on. residents were forced to isolate with no explanation. Bracknell is not a very multicultural area. The impact In many areas, racist far-right activists—no doubt on housing pressure at local level could cause further emboldened by the hateful rhetoric spewed by the media tensions if there is resentment about refugees receiving and, I am saddened to say, certain Members of the housing assistance at a time of acute affordable housing House—visited the hotel to intimidate those living there. shortage. The scale of the proposed procurement would Unfortunately, it is not just far-right thugs from outside have a significant negative impact on the resources of a who have racially abused asylum seekers in hotels. One small unitary authority with no council-owned stock. hotel manager told a man, “If you don’t like it, go back Contextually, Bracknell Forest Council’s housing team to your own country.” Another resident claimed that has managed in the last twelve months to procure the same man said, “I am a citizen of this country and I 21 private rented sector households: compare that to 200. have a right to do whatever I can. You don’t have the In sum, we need a faster, more robust asylum system. right to complain.” A further two people said that they I regret, however, that the model pursued by the heard the manager say that if they are not happy they Government and by companies such as Clearsprings in can be deported. That is the tip of the iceberg. The Bracknell is just not the answer. We will take our share, stories I hear in my surgeries are a tiny fraction of what but we also need a sense of perspective. is happening in Leeds and across the country. In 2018, I spoke physically in Westminster Hall about 10.5 am the poor condition of housing for asylum seekers in Paula Barker (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab) [V]: I thank Leeds. That continues to persist without any improvement. my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old My colleagues describe similar shocking conditions in Southwark (Neil Coyle) for securing this much-needed constituencies around the country. G4S lost its contract debate, and I pay tribute to the incredible work of and another private sector company made promises, Asylum Link Merseyside in my constituency. My but the same problems persist. It is time that these constituents regularly contact me expressing dismay contracts were run by public, not-for-profit providers and often anger at the way this country operates its that are not driven by profit— asylum system to the detriment of the most vulnerable and the communities in which they hope to integrate. Philip Davies (in the Chair): Order. As a humanitarian, I too, like my constituents, believe that we can and should do more to provide much-needed 10.1 am dignity in the way we treat asylum seekers. James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): Whatever the Most recently, I have been contacted by constituents Government are told, the fact remains that the UK is a horrified at the treatment of fellow human beings in global leader in overseas aid and refugee resettlement. military barracks. Asylum accommodation has always Between 2016 and 2019, we resettled more refugees been inadequate to the needs of people awaiting a from outside Europe than any other EU member. In decision on their claim, but throughout 2020 the 2015, the Government committed to resettling 20,000 conditions and standards of this accommodation have of the most vulnerable who had fled the conflict in worsened drastically.Forced room-sharing with strangers, Syria. The UK has now resettled over 25,000 refugees in accommodation that lacks basic hygiene measures and total in the past six years. Over half of them have been inadequate provision of food, non-prescription medicines children. Any asylum seeker who would otherwise be and other essentials are now the norm. Indeed, drastic destitute is provided with free accommodation with failings had been uncovered in a report submitted to utility bills and council tax paid, as well as a weekly the Home Office by prison inspectors, as well as in allowance with extra money for mothers and little children. correspondence sent by the outgoing independent chief As a nation at the vanguard of human rights around inspector of borders and immigration, David Bolt. This the world, it is right that the UK offers legal and safe underlines the need for an urgent change of course on routes to help the most vulnerable people in the world. the use of this type of accommodation. But, Mr Chairman, we have got ourselves into an awful With the idea of refugees being kept on a rock in the pickle, and it is now out of control. My contention south Atlantic being floated by the make-it-up-as-you- today is twofold: first, the current policy does nothing go-along Home Secretary, no wonder the Government to disincentivise those who seek to take advantage of seemingly intend to continue such a barbaric and inhumane our generosity, and our over-populated island is already practice as currently exists in Kent. I am often reminded at capacity. Secondly, we need more robust policies, so I of the infamous quote from the late, great Tony Benn: welcome current initiatives from the Home Office such “The way a government treats refugees is very instructive as the points-based immigration system. But we also because it shows you how they would treat the rest of us if they have to send a clear message to disincentivise economic thought they could get away with it.” migration on the pretext of asylum. In short, and in reference to the debate’s motion, the As part of the New Plan for Immigration and to help effectiveness of asylum accommodation and the dispersal speed up the processing of claims, the Government plan scheme is woefully inadequate. There exists only one to introduce new asylum reception centres. I welcome adequate system: one that puts the human front and 41WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 42WH

[Paula Barker] 10.10 am centre of the system and affords dignity and respect. As John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab) [V]: a whole, we must achieve a fair and equitable system I have two detention centres in my constituency, that sees Whitehall pulling its weight alongside local Harmondsworth and Colnbrook. I will come back in authorities, with no local authorities in the Tory shires another debate to explain the brutality of the regime in ducking their responsibilities under the dispersal scheme. those detention centres, which is abhorrent. Ultimately, big changes are needed. One of the opportunities given to us by Westminster Hall debates is to explain to Ministers what is happening 10.7 am on the ground, as against some of the advice they might Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab) [V]: I thank be getting from officials. Since last June, two hotels in my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old my constituency have been used to house 600 asylum Southwark (Neil Coyle) and the hon. Member for Ruislip, seekers, as a response to the covid pandemic. Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds) for securing I welcome those people into my constituency. I have the debate, in which I speak as a representative of the met them and they are largely seeking refuge from UK’s first city of sanctuary. Syria, Iran and other oppressive regimes or war-torn or Many of us know from our constituents that asylum impoverished areas of the world. Many arrived here seeker accommodation is too often substandard, with with little more than the clothes they stand up in. To large providers contracted by the Home Office at rates respond, I set up a working group, with representatives that drive them towards substandard provision. But from the Home Office, the contractor Clearsprings, the since 2019 we have seen problems with the new Home local NHS, council and community groups. I commend Office contracts, which have been mentioned. As the the Bell Farm Christian Centre, and Diane Faichney Red Cross explains in its report published today, from and Stuart Mathers in particular. the start of the new contracts there was a sharp rise in the use of emergency forms of asylum support Despite all the hard work of those involved, major accommodation across the UK, including hostels, bed problems have arisen due to the basic administration of and breakfasts and hotels. By December 2020, around the scheme. For instance, outsourcing food provision to one in every five people accommodated by the Home a hotel resulted in people going hungry, and the Bell Office was living in such temporary accommodation—an Farm Christian Centre’s foodbank being overwhelmed, almost fourfold increase in just one year. as refugees simply sought food to feed their families. But let us be clear that the solution is not the apparent The small financial support allowance is often not paid move from the Home Office towards the use of detention and backlogs build up. At one point a curfew was centres on arrival. We have already seen, as has been imposed, causing real anxiety because detainees felt mentioned, shocking reports of those who have experienced they were almost in a prison. We also struggled to get the provision in ex-military barracks, which are unsuitable agreement with the local council on school places. for helping to heal the traumas those people have Since then, there have been sudden removals of families experienced and are in extremely poor conditions and from those hotels. Although we had been assured that away from the services those people need. there would be adequate notice, people have sometimes The Government’s new plan for immigration includes been given just two hours to move, and not told where proposals for new “reception centres”that would “provide they are going or where they will eventually be put. basic accommodation”, but as the Red Cross points Local teachers have contacted me extremely distressed out, it is likely, given the huge delays in the system, that about the impact on already vulnerable children, who those seeking asylum could live in such centres for had just begun to settle in their schools. We were several months, potentially in remote locations, reducing assured that everything would be done to provide settled contact between communities, increasing social isolation accommodation, but we now discover people have simply and harming their health and wellbeing. We know that been dispatched around the country into more hotels that is the experience of immigration removal centres, and often into appalling standards of accommodation. which were set up to fulfil a short-term function but We all accept that the overriding concern during the have ended up detaining people sometimes for months, pandemic was to keep people safe, but immediate action even for years—indefinite detention, described by those is needed to provide support and assistance to these detained as worse than prison and rejected by the often extremely traumatised people, many of whom House in its support for our 2015 cross-party inquiry have already been diagnosed with PTSD. That means into immigration detention. decent, settled accommodation and advice and support, The Government were right to set up pilots to develop ensuring that those families are fully engaged in determining community-based alternatives, and I commend the former their own futures. This has been a shameful, disgraceful Minister, the right hon. Member for Romsey and performance by this Government. Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) for her work on them. It now appears, however, that the Government are abandoning those pilots. The consultation paper on 10.13 am the new plan for immigration states that one of its aims is to change the system Claudia Webbe (Leicester East) (Ind) [V]: It is a “so that we can better protect and support those in genuine need pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. of asylum.” I congratulate the hon. Member for Bermondsey and If that really is the case, the Minister needs to be clear in Old Southwark (Neil Coyle) on securing this hugely his response about how the Government plan to improve important debate. The asylum system overhaul recently housing for asylum seekers and to be clear that increased announced by the Home Secretary lacks basic humanity use of detention will play no part whatsoever. and represents the latest step in this Government’s 43WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 44WH pernicious demonisation of asylum seekers. It has rightly example, that many people seeking asylum in the been criticised by human rights organisations, including UK had homes destroyed by British bombs and British the UN Refugee Agency and the British Red Cross. wars. It is not said that when fleeing poverty and The UK Government have persistently been warned persecution in their homelands, people are desperate to by experts,migrant charities and parliamentary Committees be reunited with loved ones already here in Britain. No, that if they do not open safe and legal routes for people in the eyes of the Government and much of the right-wing to practise their legal right to claim asylum, deaths at press, they are not people; they are a problem. That is sea are unavoidable. Yet they have proceeded to close how the asylum system treats them. the few legal avenues that exist, such as the right to As hon. Members have said, those people have been family reunion. crammed into camps in Penally and Napier and forced Contrary to popular mistruths, asylum seekers do to share dormitories with dozens, predictably causing not arrive in the UK to leech off the state. Asylum mass outbreaks of coronavirus. When I challenged the support allowance is a mere £37.75 per week. Contrary Home Secretary about that at the end of January, she to the myths propagated by the Home Secretary in promised me that the camps were of a very strong Parliament, it is also far from the case that the UK is standard. Wenow know that that is not true. Instead, they overwhelmed with asylum seekers, with Germany, Spain, were against public health guidance and recommendations Italy, Greece and France registering far more asylum from the local health boards. applications. Indeed, in 2020, the UK received just It is not just the camps. During the pandemic, an under a third of the number of asylum applications unprecedented number of people seeking asylum have received by Germany and about two fifths the number been left in unsuitable and often unsafe accommodation. in France. In the sixth richest country in the world, In Coventry, I have seen at first hand the appalling there is no reason we cannot provide a humane pathway conditions and disgraceful treatment people are subjected towards stability and dignity for everyone. Instead, asylum to. Mothers with young babies moved into rooms with seekers are forced to reside in appalling conditions. insect infestations and mould covering the walls. Parents In a report published today, the British Red Cross separated from each other with no reason and no found that too many asylum-seeking women, men and warning. All the while, the outsourcing companies that children in the UK are living in unfit, unsanitary and run the services, such as Serco, make huge profits from isolated accommodation, which falls far short of expected Government contracts. standards, for months and even years at a time. The The people seeking asylum are denied the right to report is harrowing: people living in the same clothes work, and local authorities, even if they are eager to for weeks, survivors of trafficking forced into widely help, are starved of necessary funding. In Coventry, we inappropriate housing and scared to leave their rooms, are lucky to have organisations such as Coventry Asylum and requests for medical support ignored. Indeed, in a and Refugee Action Group and Carriers of Hope, recent 13-month period, the British Red Cross supported which provide meals and essential items for people more than 400 individuals struggling with suicidal thoughts. seeking asylum. I want to pay particular tribute to Far from addressing those issues, the Government’s Loraine Mponela and Sue Sampson for the incredible new plan for immigration includes plans to house people work they do in Coventry. seeking asylum in reception centres. Yet, this institutional- No one’s basic needs should depend on charity. People style accommodation, including the appalling conditions seeking asylum are not a problem to be managed or a currently being endured by asylum seekers at Napier useful scapegoat to distract and divide. They are people military barracks, can have significant negative impact deserving of dignity and respect. Napier barracks must on people’s mental and physical health, as well as close immediately,there must be funding for local authorities isolating people seeking asylum from wider communities. and the dispersal scheme, with the housing stock invested The Government must also end the hugely damaging in and upgraded, and those seeking sanctuary should practice of outsourcing accommodation to private be offered the opportunity to rebuild their lives with an companies, which have overseen this disastrous, prison-like end to the ban on the right to work. infrastructure. In 2019, Serco was awarded a new Government contract despite being fined nearly £7 million 10.19 am for sustained failings over a seven-year period. Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship 10.16 am today, Mr Davies. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab) [V]: It is a Coyle) on securing this important debate. We in this pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. country are proud of our long record of providing a I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey safe haven to people in fear of their lives, yet the and Old Southwark (Neil Coyle) on securing this important approach this Government take to asylum accommodation debate. is a stain on their conscience. It has been condemned by The poet Warsan Shire wrote: the Refugee Council, the Red Cross, Freedom from “you have to understand, Torture, and many other organisations. It has been criticised by the National Audit Office, and the appalling that no one puts their children in a boat conditions at Penally and Napier barracks have been unless the water is safer than the land”. documented in a damning report by Her Majesty’s When the Government and much of the media cover inspectorate of prisons. channel crossings or the supposed migrant crisis, there I have an initial accommodation site in my constituency, is rarely an attempt to understand that. The stories of and each year I make representations on behalf of the people themselves are ignored. It is not said, for many of the residents there. The situation they face is 45WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 46WH

[Helen Hayes] people in difficulty, going back to at least the time of supporting Belgian refugees in world war one, and in appalling. The accommodation is poor quality and many other conflicts since then. overcrowded. Room sharing between strangers is the The issues I will raise today are those at the George norm, and bathrooms are also shared. Food is meagre, Hotel, which the Home Secretary kindly helped me monotonous, and lacking in nutrition. with and offered some support on last year. This is a The needs of many children, babies, pregnant women hotel in the centre of Reading where a number of and disabled people there are not met. I recently made refugees and asylum seekers were placed at short notice representations on behalf of a resident who is reliant on at the beginning of the pandemic. Obviously, at that a motorised wheelchair, which needed a new battery, so time, resources were under great pressure. However, he had to leave it on charge all day in order to have just issues continued over some months, and I want to one hour of outside activity. It was broken so that it was highlight some of those problems to illustrate the scale exacerbating the pain in his back, yet he had found it of the issues we face as a country, and also to flag this impossible to access basic support. up to the Government and ask for a fundamental The residents cannot afford to travel, so while they rethink. wait for the next decision from the Home Office, life is We have had reports—which I have investigated with unbearably monotonous. By definition, many of these my colleague and hon. Friend the Member for Halifax residents have fled the worst circumstances any of us (Holly Lynch), the shadow Immigration Minister—of could possibly imagine. They are traumatised and in problems with food being inappropriate or insufficient; need of support, yet the Home Office leaves them in a lack of connection with local medical services, such as poor accommodation, alone with their thoughts. It is asylum seekers not being registered with GPs; and a simply inhumane; it lacks basic dignity. lack of financial support, which meant that those in the The Home Office’s approach sits in stark contrast to George Hotel were, at times, unable to make small local the response of our communities. I pay tribute to the journeys or other journeys to meet people who they faith communities and community organisations in my needed to see. For example, a disabled man at one point constituency that, aware of asylum seekers living in had to walk all the way to the Royal Berkshire Hospital, accommodation, constantly rally to provide support— which is about three quarters of a mile away from the winter coats, shoes for children, pushchairs for babies, George Hotel. and Christmas gifts. I mention in particular the incredible Many of the issues seem to relate to the contractor, work of our local NHS, which have a dedicated outreach Clearsprings, and the Home Secretary was very gracious service, and Happy Baby Community, who pick up in helping to address some of them last year. From my mums and babies from the initial accommodation once experience, this contractor seems to have a relatively a week and spend the day with them, providing nutritious poor track record in our area. I cannot comment on the food, company, health visitor services, and friendship— further, wider issues, but that does raise questions about support that I have no doubt is life-saving to many new the nature of the provision and whether there ought to mothers living in such appalling circumstances. be a much more fundamental rethink, as a number of However, this support should not be left to our colleagues have pointed out. communities and the voluntary sector. The Government must get a grip on these contracts. We are rightly proud I realise that there is a lack of time this morning, and of our record of welcoming people seeking sanctuary in I am grateful for the Minister’s support in this matter. I our country. This Government have a duty to secure the hope there will be a much broader and wider rethink of continuation of that tradition, providing the policy the policy on how asylum seekers and refugees are framework, support, and partnership work to guarantee supported in the UK. Weneed to maintain high standards that people seeking asylum in this country are treated of support and keep up our excellent tradition of supporting with the dignity and compassion they deserve. and welcoming people.

10.22 am 10.25 am Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP) [V]: I serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I thank my thank the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil Coyle) very much, because this is such Southwark (Neil Coyle), and indeed the hon. Member a pressing and desperate issue. We know from the new for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds), immigration plan that this Government are determined for having secured this important debate. In addition, I to institutionalise asylum seekers. The pandemic provided would like to thank a number of local groups within a convenient time to move people into hostels, hotels Reading and Woodley, particularly Reading Refugee and Army barracks, for goodness’ sake, and as we have Support Group, Reading Red Kitchen, and various heard too many are still there. Four hundred in Glasgow local churches and faith groups, which have all contributed remain in hotels. It is clear that there is an ideological to supporting refugees and asylum seekers in our area. shift away from housing people in communities. The use It is fundamental that we treat asylum seekers and of this type of accommodation long term is extremely refugees with dignity, according to international law, dangerous and has led to a marked deterioration in and with respect. I wanted to focus my remarks on people’s mental health, as confirmed in the report from some issues that have happened in Reading, which I the independent chief inspector of borders and immigration. have already raised with Ministers, and I am grateful for The Home Office is getting it wrong on so many counts, their support in this matter. I would also like to say that but when has the UK, regardless of who was in power, the town I represent has a proud history of supporting ever got it right? 47WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 48WH

I shudder when I hear the names of previous moved out, and two have moved in. I therefore ask these accommodation providers in Glasgow such as the Angel questions of the Minister, given that this Government Group and Ypeople, and now we have the Mears Group, are paying the people doing this to them. Will he which I will come to. I want to say something about the urgently look into the issue of the mother-and-baby workers in some of the groups that I am rightly attacking. unit? Will he support the Scottish Refugee Council, the I accept that many decent, caring people work for these Red Cross and Amma Birth Companions—organisations organisations and go above and beyond the call of duty, that are working with these women to have them really taking care of the people they are working with. relocated—and will he get those relocation requests This is not about individuals, although I will share some expedited before more damage is done? In looking into horror stories; it is about the system and those companies this issue, will he also trust my word and that of the making money from that system. other Glasgow MPs that, in our opinion, Mears Group The reason why we get it wrong is that our attitude is will tell him what he wants to hear, but we will tell him all wrong, or at least this Government’s is. What we the truth? should be doing is putting metaphorical arms around I have another story, which I hope will give hope to people and saying, “You got here. You’re safe and anyone listening. In 2005, Roza was a 15-year-old asylum protected. You’re respected. You’re now home.” But this seeker when she and her friends— later to become Government will not say that, because they do not known as the Glasgow Girls—took direct action to agree with it. Their priority is sending a message not to stop dawn raids, terrified as they were of the implications come here—“You are not wanted.”Those seeking asylum for their own families. It worked: for many years, there are among the most vulnerable human beings on the have been no dawn raids in Scotland—that is, until last planet, and I want to share the story of some women in Friday, when the Home Office shamefully terrified a Glasgow who are particularly vulnerable right now. 68-year-old man with an existing heart condition, who There are few times in a woman’s life when she is is currently fasting, by sending 10 officers to his door in more vulnerable than when she is giving birth. Earlier the early hours of the morning to remove his family this year, 20 women in Glasgow who were either pregnant from their beds and take them to detention. The poor or new mums were moved wholesale into a mother-and- man collapsed and, as he was taken away in an ambulance, baby unit in Glasgow. It was wholly unsuitable, for so an immigration officer told him, “We’ll be back.” many reasons, but I will limit myself to three. One was I have since heard that, unbeknown to most people, that the rooms are tiny, and the babies and toddlers, dawn raids may have been happening in Glasgow since who are expected to be there for two years, have no January, but to families who had nobody to reach out space at all in which to explore, to learn to walk and to to. Let me make this very clear: I and every one of my play. That is cruel and is having a detrimental impact on colleagues in the SNP, and the good people of Glasgow them. Secondly, the cot in some rooms is next to the tiny and Scotland, will fight the Government on this in a cooking area. The mums do not feel it is safe to leave way that makes it very much not worth their while the baby in the cot, but they cannot take them into bed, doing it. Do not go down this route again. We will not because the beds are narrow single beds, so where do stand by. the babies sleep? Thirdly, 20 mums and 20-plus babies I said it was a hopeful story, and it is, because in share laundry facilities that consist of three washing 10 days’ time, that 15-year-old asylum-seeking schoolgirl, machines, making it absolutely impossible to practise Roza—now 16 years older—may become a Member of social distancing. the Scottish Parliament if enough people vote for her The women were given absolutely no say over this. party on the Glasgow list. Notwithstanding the fact They were housed in flats in communities where they that Roza Salih would be a brilliant asset, what is had support and excellent networks when, suddenly, Scotland saying to asylum seekers if it elects one of they were hoisted out of their accommodation and told their own to the country’s Parliament? What is Scotland that they had to move to the unit. One woman was told saying to refugees who can now vote thanks to recent that if she did not go, she would be deported. Another legislation? The country is saying, “You are welcome was told that she could take two carrier bags of stuff here, you are one of us now and everything is possible.” and that that was more than enough for her and her But in Scotland we can only really tinker, and where newborn baby, but also that she had no right to have all that is possible we have done it. On the big issues that stuff, because she was supposed to be destitute. The affecting asylum seekers all we can do is send out disrespect with which these women have been treated is messages of support, because we have no control over an absolute disgrace. the system and have to go along with whatever this Tory Last night, I met some of the women for the second Government want. As my hon. Friend the Member for time, and I discovered that one of them has tested Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Steven Bonnar) positive for covid-19. Some of the women living in the said, we are a country desperate to support asylum unit were not informed by Mears. I hope that the seekers properly. That is why we in the SNP want Minister is shocked—I am sure he will be—to hear that. independence, because we are not allowed to stop Volunteer groups working closely with the mothers inhumanity being meted out in our country. I say to were not told either—even when they asked. The young everyone in Scotland, “If you want asylum seekers to be woman speaks no English, and she is currently still treated with love, humanity and respect, you can do using the communal facilities, so she is not self-isolating. that with independence.” The Mears Group denies that, but it always does. I have this to say to those living in the rest of the UK The Mears Group promised me some time ago, on and to colleagues here today: I and my colleagues will more than one occasion, that no more mothers would fight tooth and nail for a better system for everyone in be moved in and that those in there would be moved out these islands while we are still part of the UK. Afterwards, if they so wished—and they do wish. So far, two have I cannot imagine Scotland’s first Foreign Secretary not 49WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 50WH

[Anne McLaughlin] asylum system from around 48,000 to around 60,000. Inevitably, that would have brought logistical challenges, putting diplomatic pressure on the rest of the UK to and we were sympathetic to that, but over 12 months show the same love, compassion and respect that will on, there are no justifications for the shocking conditions permeate Scotland’s new immigration system. that persist in asylum accommodation and the questionable I want to thank and pay tribute to some of the motivations behind Home Office decision making. organisations that have been in touch with me about Contingency accommodation has become far more widely this debate and that have supported some of the people used as the norm than it ever should have been. I have mentioned: Amma, the Scottish Refugee Council, The Minister may have read the Refugee Council’s the Maryhill Integration Network, the Red Cross, Refugee report published last week on the use of hotel Action, the No Evictions Network, the English Refugee accommodation. It outlines just how difficult life has Council and the migrant-led Migrants Organising for been for people who have been confined to the same Rights & Empowerment. room for days and weeks on end and for those who I want to pre-empt something I think the Minister arrived without basics, such as shoes and coats, and will say in his response about accommodating asylum who simply were not provided with any. People had seekers in Scotland. He will say that it is a problem that insufficient access to drinking water, and there were only Glasgow has agreed to take asylum seekers and widespread failures to register them with GPs so that that meetings have taken place with the Convention of they could access healthcare. In some instances, as we Scottish Local Authorities, and they have, although not have heard children were not enrolled in schools for with Scottish Government Ministers. As others have months. said, COSLA’s long-standing position is that it will I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for support further dispersals to other local authorities Dulwich and West Norwood (Helen Hayes) and for when there is an appropriate partnership approach with Reading East (Matt Rodda), who shared with us the local government and, crucially, when adequate funding contributions of their local charities and communities. I is provided by the UK Government to support the key am grateful to my hon. Friend for Reading East for role that councils play. COSLA also makes the very fair introducing me to a number of his local organisations point that all 32 Scottish local authorities got involved that support those accommodated in hotels. in the Syrian refugee resettlement scheme, when proper The Government have said that the use of hotels will support was provided. That is also consistent with the end as part of the new plan for immigration. That is Home Affairs Committee recommendations. incredibly welcome, but what is the plan? Where will I end by saying that, alongside providing safe and those people be accommodated instead? The Home legal routes for people to reach these islands, cutting the Office provided a quote to The Guardian on Friday, time people have to wait for decisions on their claims saying: and providing safe, suitable accommodation for people “As part of our New Plan for Immigration, the use of hotels to seeking asylum in the UK, we should be giving accommodate new arrivals will end and we plan to introduce new compassionate support. Those metaphorical arms should asylum reception centres.” be welcoming people who, as I have said, are among the I understand that Operation Oak sought to move people most vulnerable on this planet. If this Government are out of hotel accommodation and into more appropriate not prepared to do that, they are not fit for government. dispersed accommodation, as should be the process. However,that Home Office spokesperson seems to suggest 10.34 am that those currently housed in hotels will instead be housed in reception centres. Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure to At the end of February, an estimated 8,700 asylum serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. Let me seekers were accommodated in more than 90 hotels start, as others have, by thanking my hon. Friend the across the UK. Some were there for months. What Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil exactly will these new reception centres be for? My hon. Coyle) and the hon. Member for Ruislip, Northwood Friends the Members for Bermondsey and Old Southwark and Pinner (David Simmonds) for securing the debate, and for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) have stressed for their outstanding opening contributions and for how unhappy we are about the proposals. I hope the their leadership on asylum and migration issues. I also Minister will explain just how many centres he envisages want to thank the Backbench Business Committee for will be required, how long people will be required to allocating the time for the debate. It is often said that stay in them and what the terms of their stay will be. debates are timely, but with just a week to go before That quote suggests that the centres will be a form of the end of the incredibly short consultation on the initial accommodation, but everything else we are hearing Government’s new plans for an immigration policy sounds much more comparable to detention than initial statement, ahead of the sovereign borders Bill, it could accommodation. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, not be more timely. Central and my right hon. Friend the Member for There are pre-existing weaknesses in the asylum Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) made it clear accommodation and dispersal scheme, combined with why that would be a disaster. My fear is that this is a the pressures of the pandemic, which we accept have policy choice from this Government—a point already been significant. Added to the direction of travel under made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith this Government, outlined in the policy statement, that (Andy Slaughter) and others. creates a pretty toxic outlook. Although I have outlined just some of the problems On contingency accommodation, we recognise the with hotels, it is clear that there has been a deliberate increased need for accommodation, with the early,welcome attempt to conflate initial accommodation with immigration pause on negative cessations taking the numbers in the detention, with the use of disused barracks to accommodate 51WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 52WH asylum seekers. I made a number of these points in last Secretary at the end of March from the leaders of the week’s debate. As with the use of hotels, the Government asylum dispersal areas for the west midlands. They are initially claimed that the use of barracks at Penally and keen to stress that they recognise their responsibility as Napier was due to the unprecedented pressures of the a region to contribute to the UK’sasylum and immigration pandemic. Yet, the equality impact assessment we have challenges, and they have supported the dispersal scheme seen, which was conducted by the Home Office in since 1999, but they feel they have no choice other than September, revealed that use of that particular type of to suspend their participation. accommodation was born not out of necessity but out They clearly state that, despite their attempts to of political choice. It suggested that providing nothing engage Government in finding solutions to the challenges but the absolute bare minimum to those seeking asylum they face, is in the interests of community relations. It reads more “the absence of any strategic plan has meant we lack confidence like a hard-line right-wing manifesto than any equality on the next steps around engagement to resolve the range of impact assessment from a Government Department complex and serious challenges we face. What we do know is that ever should. the current position is untenable and that we simply cannot The Government’s reluctance to provide anything continue to support in the same manner going forward.” deemed beyond what is necessary has led to people with When Government’s biggest partners are walking away conditions such as leukaemia, diabetes or tuberculosis from dispersal, they have to come back to the table and being housed 28 to a dorm and sharing limited toilet work constructively to find solutions. Has the meeting facilities, with communal areas cleaned only once a sought in the letter happened—with leaders from not week, during a pandemic. just the west midlands but all dispersal areas—to work On 8 March 2021 the then independent chief inspector through the challenges? The former Minister, the right of borders and immigration published initial findings hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North from site visits in mid-February to Penally camp and (Caroline Nokes), made a characteristically powerful Napier barracks with Her Majesty’s inspectorate of contribution, inviting the Minister to work with the prisons. They confirmed that, given the Local Government Association to find the solutions we “cramped communal conditions and unworkable cohorting at Napier” all want. a large-scale outbreak of covid was virtually inevitable, The letter also makes the point that the use of hotels which is exactly what happened. There were 197 positive has been a reality of initial accommodation since the cases of covid at Napier barracks between 1 January new contracts were agreed in 2019, so any sense that and late February. We secured the Kent and Medway they are used because of the pandemic alone is nonsense. clinical commissioning group’sinfection prevention report It says that their use undertaken at Napier through a freedom of information “feels more like an unsatisfactory business as usual arrangement request, and that also confirmed that the site does not rather than short term contingency.” facilitate effective social distancing. The CCG report That point was made clear in the Red Cross’s report, also made it clear that the Home Office had a disregard published today and mentioned already by a number of for the wellbeing of not only those accommodated at hon. Members. Napier, but the staff working on the site. At the time of The Minister knows that in rule changes made in the inspection there had been nine positive cases among December the Government gave themselves the ability staff members. The report also found that all staff took to deem claims inadmissible if someone arrives in the breaks at the same time and that, unbelievably, staff UK outside of a resettlement scheme, regardless of were being asked to sleep three to a room at the site. whether asylum should be granted, and without any The ICIBI report raised serious safeguarding concerns agreements having been struck with European partners about those who were most vulnerable at Napier, stating: on returning anyone to anywhere else. Over the weekend, “There was inadequate support for people who had self-harmed. May Bulman at The Independent newspaper broke the People at high risk of self-harm were located in a decrepit story that Belgium, France and Germany have all ruled ‘isolation block’ which we considered unfit for habitation.” such an agreement out: In evidence provided to the Home Affairs Committee “Belgium’s asylum and migration secretary…said the country last month the Government claimed that they had been had no intention of negotiating unilateral readmission agreements “following guidance in every single way”. with the UK and that he had already explained his position to the My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South (Zarah immigration minister”. Sultana) spoke of the simply untrue assurances that she The German embassy in London told The Independent was given about the quality of the accommodation. The that CCG and ICIBI reports could not be clearer that at no “no negotiations between Germany and the UK on return time were such assurances true. On leadership and arrangements had taken place”, management, the latter report concluded: indicating that bilateral returns deals are simply not on “The Home Office did not exercise adequate oversight at either the cards.France echoed those remarks,with a spokesperson site and Home Office staff were rarely present. There were fundamental saying: failures of leadership and planning by the Home Office.” “We will naturally continue our operational co-operation to That was not someone else’s failure. It was the Home prevent departures and fight against smuggling networks. With Secretary’s failure, and those barracks must close regards to readmissions, asylum is a European subject, which immediately. calls for a European response.” The wider failures of the system and the nature of dispersal are now putting local authorities under enormous Philip Davies (in the Chair): Order. I am sorry to pressure, and there is a sense that the Government are interrupt the flow of the hon. Lady, but to give the just not listening, which is pushing the system to breaking Minister a fair amount of time, can I ask her to bring point. I have seen a letter that was sent to the Home her remarks to a conclusion? 53WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 54WH

Holly Lynch: Thank you, Mr Davies. I will take that meals a day, with staggered meal times to cater for on board. social distancing requirements, and support to meet all Let me say in closing that this approach is utterly the current public health guidance and our standards. unworkable. We will only see more people who are Where issues have been raised, such as with food, likely to be deserving of asylum not even having their we have inspected menus ourselves. Our providers claims considered, while they remain trapped in a wholly have also conducted surveys, and we have acted on inadequate and inhumane system for longer, costing the recommendations arising from them. We have also Government significantly more money to deliver nothing undertaken several measures in the short term to mitigate but failure. I very much hope that the Minister will the use of hotel contingency. Working groups have been reflect on those points. established with three providers to monitor the availability of accommodation within their portfolios. The groups meet Home Office officials weekly with the objective to 10.45 am mitigate moving to hotel use wherever possible by increasing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the the amount of dispersal accommodation in all regions Home Department (Kevin Foster): It is a pleasure to and nations of our United Kingdom. As a result, we serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I thank the have reduced our reliance on contingency accommodation hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark of all sorts by 25% since December. To be clear, hotels (Neil Coyle) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, are only ever a contingency option; they are not a Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds) for securing long-term solution. the debate. I also thank right hon. and hon. Members At our contingency accommodation at the Napier who have taken part for their contributions. I will try to site, all the basic needs of asylum seekers are met, respond to the points raised, but as you touched on, including their welfare needs. The site is catered, with Mr Davies, I do not have the opportunity to do that in three meals a day, and options are provided that cater any great depth with seven to eight minutes left. I will for special dietary, cultural or religious requirements. also allow a short period for the hon. Member who Additional meals are provided as required. There is secured the debate to offer his closing remarks. power, heating and water, and access to phones and The UK has a proud history of welcoming and support items such as toiletries is provided, along supporting those in need of our protection. Throughout with access to laundry facilities. All asylum seekers the pandemic, we have taken action to ensure that those housed there have access to a 24/7 advice, issue seeking asylum in the UK have the support they need. reporting and eligibility service, provided, again, by Asylum support is provided to destitute asylum seekers Migrant Help, where they can raise any concerns regarding until their claims are finally determined and to failed accommodation or support services. asylum seekers if they are destitute and unable to leave On the effectiveness of the dispersal system, I the UK immediately due to circumstances beyond their acknowledge the concerns of hon. Members and control, including the current pandemic. That includes local authorities who have asked for a more equitable access to free accommodation, asylum support allowance spread of dispersal. The pandemic has presented us and access to our advice, issue reporting and eligibility with significant challenges when it comes to the provision provider Migrant Help. of asylum accommodation, including sourcing sufficient The Home Office’s accommodation providers are accommodation to meet demand. Our priority is to required to provide safe, habitable, fit-for-purpose and ensure that we meet our legal duty to house destitute correctly equipped accommodation that complies with asylum seekers and ensure their safety and wellbeing, as the decent homes standard in addition to standards well as the safety and wellbeing of the communities in outlined in relevant national or local housing legislation. which they live. While the numbers of those supported We worked with our providers to improve property have increased, the majority of asylum seekers do not standards over the lifetime of the previous asylum receive Home Office support, and the majority of those accommodation contracts and have made a number of who are not supported live in the south-east of England. improvements in the asylum accommodation and support The Home Office is working with a range of contracts now in place. Where a provider is found to be local authorities to increase the number of areas that falling short of those standards, we work with them to accommodate and support people seeking asylum and ensure that issues are addressed. If they are not, we can protection. Each local authority is encouraged to contribute. and do impose service credits. Housing providers are I am grateful to the councils that cover the constituencies required to inspect each property every month, and the of the two hon. Members who secured the debate for Home Office also inspects properties on a targeted basis playing their part, along with the city of Stoke-on-Trent each year. I hope that Members will, however, appreciate and the city of Glasgow.We have managed to increase the the impact of the pandemic on some of those inspections. number of voluntary dispersal agreements from 92 to 163, There was much focus in the debate on contingency and we continue to try to increase them across our accommodation. The Home Office, along with many United Kingdom. In the last three years, areas that have local authorities across our whole United Kingdom, agreed to participate include Aylesbury Vale, Gosport, has had to use hotels as contingency accommodation Oxford and Wiltshire, which might all be described as during the covid-19 pandemic. Accommodation providers being in the “Tory shires”, to use one hon. Member’s engage with police, local authorities and local contacts definition. prior to and during hotel use in all locations. We regularly In addition to those currently participating, we have provide local authorities and partners with information agreements in place with over 40 more where the provider about hotel use in their areas, including occupancy is finding it difficult to procure suitable properties. I figures. The hotel accommodation provided is of a urge all local authorities to assist us and play their part reasonable quality, and those housed in it receive three in this work, as simply passing motions and making 55WH Support for Asylum Seekers27 APRIL 2021 Support for Asylum Seekers 56WH declarations does not give us options to house or resettle 10.53 am people. I highlight in particular the situation in Scotland, Neil Coyle: I thank everyone for contributing to the where only one local authority—Glasgow—is taking debate and the Backbench Business Committee for part. It was interesting to hear that Members from granting it. What we are seeing is a poverty of ambition Scotland are desperate to do more. Here is an option: from this Government, with aid cuts and Army cuts their constituencies can become dispersal areas. Let us that reduce our ability to intervene abroad to prevent not have a Meatloaf-style, “We will do anything to the creation of asylum seekers in the first place. There is support refugees, but we won’t do that.” no ambition to end the backlog and delays in decision At the root of the issues with accommodation is the making for those who are already here, no ambition to fact that our asylum system is broken, with delays, end hotel use, leaving taxpayers footing the bill for repeat applications and opportunities to game the system. inappropriate accommodation, and no ambition to work It is expensive and it has lost public trust. It is therefore better with councils. Southwark and the Salvation Army vital that major reforms are made, and that is exactly offered to take more unaccompanied children, but the what the Government will do through the recently Home Office failed to take them up on that. announced new plan for immigration. We will look to We see a reliance on a new plan that says we cannot increase the fairness and efficacy of our system so that do better than barrack accommodation, when Napier we can better protect and support those in genuine need should be seen as a hideous aberration and a break with of asylum, while deterring illegal entry into the United British tradition, for all the reasons exposed by my hon. Kingdom based mostly on economic migration reasons, Friend the Member for Halifax (Holly Lynch). That not protection. It is particularly vital that we put an end new plan relies on a bilateral arrangement with the to dangerous and unnecessary sea crossings. I am sure European Union that Germany and France have already all hon. Members would agree that we must put an end said no thanks to. The Minister should be resolutely to such criminal activities. focused on delivering the humane, efficient system that the public want and that people fleeing war desperately I will wind up to allow the hon. Member for Bermondsey need, and should be fixing the existing problems in the and Old Southwark some time. The UK has a proud system before creating new ones through a new plan history of welcoming and supporting those in need of that is a mess before it has even begun. protection. Weare committed to doing everything necessary to protect the rights of asylum seekers and to provide Question put and agreed to. them with the safe and secure accommodation they Resolved, deserve. As we take forward our new plan for immigration, That this House has considered the effectiveness of asylum our focus will remain on supporting the most vulnerable, accommodation and the dispersal scheme in providing support ensuring their fair and humane treatment and working for asylum seekers. with all of our partners on matters related to asylum-seeker support to ensure that those who do need protection 10.55 am receive it here in this country. Sitting suspended. 57WH 27 APRIL 2021 Mental Health: Access to Nature 58WH

Mental Health: Access to Nature across Great Britain have no access to a garden, private or shared. With more of us expected to live in towns and cities over the coming years, I believe that now is a 11 am crucial moment to ensure that nature is put at the Philip Davies (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members forefront of our local communities, creating a new oasis that there have been some changes to normal practice in for nature and protecting existing green spaces for people order to support the new hybrid arrangements. I remind to relax and enjoy. the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey I consider myself lucky in that I have a garden and an Crouch) that she is visible at all times to us in the allotment, and I live close to a river, which the Canal Boothroyd Room. If she has any technical problems, and River Trust delightfully refers to as “blue health.” she should email the Westminster Hall Clerks’ email Over the past year I have found great comfort in being address. Members attending physically should clean able to access nature as I have navigated my way through their spaces before they use them and as they leave the personal health challenges. I was sure my consultant room. thought I had gone mad when I spent 10 minutes enthusing about forest bathing, only to hear in our next Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con) [V]: I call how she had spent the weekend in the woods. beg to move, With the ramping up of social prescribing, we That this House has considered enabling access to nature to are seeing more prescribing of nature for patients. I support mental health. have seen some incredible examples of eco-therapy As always, it is a pleasure to see you, albeit virtually, locally and I know that the Wildlife Trust has called for and to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I felt nature to be included in the covid-19 mental health and it was important to have this debate today, as both wellbeing recovery action plan, which would help harness nature and mental wellbeing are not only issues that I the power of the natural environment to drive health care passionately about, as do many of my constituents, improvement and reduce pressure on the NHS. but ones that perhaps hold more significance to people’s From a local perspective, I look forward to working everyday lives after the immense challenges of the past with Kent Wildlife Trust and the newly formed Kent year. and Medway alliance for green social prescribing, which By complete coincidence, a new all-party parliamentary links the NHS with environmental and mental health group on health and the natural environment is being organisations, and will act as a catalyst for further launched this afternoon, with green social prescribing projects between health and environmental partners in high on the agenda. That is another perfect reason for Kent. Although I recognise that that does not necessarily this debate. I encourage hon. Members to contact my fall under the Minister’s brief, I know she is engaged hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Alexander with the Department of Health and Social Care on Stafford) for further information. further exploration of the benefits of nature for those with a variety of ailments. When I heard that the theme of this year’s Mental Health Awareness Week is “connect with nature”, I On the Minister’s brief specifically, I support the wanted to secure the debate so that I could highlight the efforts that the Government have made in promoting power of nature in improving people’s wellbeing. I am access to nature, and I have welcomed measures in both grateful for the briefings that many organisations have the Environment Bill and the Agriculture Act 2020. I sent. I can assure them all that even if I do not mention especially welcome the biodiversity net gain requirement them, I have read each and every one. I commend Isabel for new homes in the Environment Bill. I have seen Hardman’s book “The Natural Health Service,” which for myself the impact of inappropriate new housing is brilliant and provides real life examples of how developments in my own constituency, where developers nature can improve and heal poor mental wellbeing. have not considered local biodiversity at all. Sadly, we continue to see hawkish proposals that would further I am pleased that both the Government and society decimate our already declining wildlife. as a whole have made great strides in the last few years in improving awareness of mental health and wellbeing. We have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to reverse However, there is always more that we can and should the attack on nature.I would welcome further commitments be doing. Coming out of the pandemic, as we are now, from the Department, as the wider planning reforms provides an opportunity for a greater focus on both, are discussed, to ensure that green spaces are preserved with nature at its centre. Without doubt, the lockdowns and enhanced for existing and new residents alike. I over the past year have had an adverse impact on therefore ask that the Minister ensures that her officials people’smental health. However,access to nature, whether work with those in the Ministry of Housing, Communities that be a local woodland, a waterway or a park, have and Local Government to ensure that a new zonal been critical in providing a brief moment of normality planning system is aligned with the Government’sambitious for so many of us. commitments to restore nature. Around nine in 10 people surveyed by Natural England One way to achieve that, which has been supported in May 2020 agreed that by a number of charities and organisations, would be to give legal protection to areas set aside for nature’s “natural spaces are good for mental health and wellbeing.” recovery in what is called the wild belt—an idea that the While it would be fair to make the assumption that we Prime Minister referenced in his Conservative party have spent more time outdoors over the last year, it is conference speech last year. The wild belt should be run essential to remember that many people do not have the throughout local areas, giving the public access to wild luxury of access to a private garden and rely on public spaces rich in biodiversity to improve health and wellbeing spaces. Over 11 million people in England live in areas and provide green corridors to enable wildlife to move deprived of local green space and one in eight people between biodiversity hotspots. 59WH Mental Health: Access to Nature27 APRIL 2021 Mental Health: Access to Nature 60WH

We need to do more to promote the growth of wild comes to nature, I urge the Minister to use this opportunity flowers along busy roads, often called roadside nature to create a better normality and a green recovery from reserves. Unfortunately, in my constituency we saw the covid that improves both the natural environment and local council accidentally cut back on RNR, but I have mental wellbeing of the country, for when one thrives, since been pleased to see that several councils across the so can the other. country that paused cutting back wildflowers during the pandemic have continued to do so, allowing wildlife 11.11 am to thrive. We have gone from people complaining about The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for weeds and overgrown grasses to their calling for more Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Victoria Prentis): wild flowers, because looking at a much better and more It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, colourful roadside reserves makes people feel better. Mr Davies. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member As with any large pieces of legislation, there are for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) on securing always opportunities for further improvements. I would the debate and on her powerful speech. It is always encourage the Government to take the opportunity good to discuss the mental health benefits of access to while the Environment Bill is paused to put into law the nature. I share her excitement at the starting of the PM’s important commitment in the UN leaders’ pledge APPG this afternoon, and I look forward to further for nature to halt and reverse biodiversity loss by 2030. developments and indeed further pressure on the That would provide the legal willpower to accelerate Government from that APPG. efforts to protect British wildlife and endangered species We all know that access to nature can be hugely such as the hedgehog, and expand the offering of green beneficial not only for physical health but for mental spaces rich in biodiversity for public wellbeing. health, with studies showing that people who visit nature A commitment in law to reverse biodiversity loss regularly feel their lives to be more worthwhile. The would hopefully go some way to address the postcode pandemic has highlighted the importance of nature, as lottery for access to nature. Clearly, large-scale investment the Department for Health and Social Care recognised is required if we are to protect endangered wildlife and in its recent covid-19 mental health and wellbeing recovery ensure that everyone, regardless of where they live or action plan. I am pleased to say that, along with many work, can access nature. other Government Departments, my Department was The National Trust is calling on the Government to invited to take part in some of the preparations for that use their levelling-up agenda to establish a new £5.5 billion plan. This sort of cross-government working, as my green infrastructure fund to improve access to green hon. Friend alluded to, is essential as we look at this spaces in our towns and cities. I recognise the very important area going forward. serious financial pressures that the country faces as a My hon. Friend rightly said that access to green result of lockdowns, but the charity has estimated that space is not equal. About 40% of people from ethnic such investment could unlock £200 billion in health minority backgrounds live in the areas most deprived of benefits alone. Although such proposals would create a green space, compared with 14% of white people, while lasting legacy for future generations, there are of course we know that in general those from poorer communities small improvements to nature that could easily be achieved, have less access to green space. Those who are more such as the planting of trees or wild flowers along likely to experience poor mental health and wellbeing residential roads. are often the least likely to engage with nature. To tackle It is often the smallest changes in nature that can this, we are developing a national framework of green make a large impact on a person’s mood, such as how at infrastructure standards, which should be ready next this time of year many of us admire the beautiful year and which will map green space and improve green simplicity of blossom. I have been pleased to support infrastructure, such as footpaths. The Environment Bill the National Trust’s blossom watch campaign for 2021 will also establish a new England-wide system called to encourage people to take a moment in nature, and local nature recovery strategies, which at a very local the National Trust has had more than 5.5 million views level will agree local nature priorities, map existing of its blossom watch content so far this year. On Saturday habitats and map proposals for new or improved habitats, morning, despite everything else that was going on, which should enhance nature. The aim is to promote #BlossomWatch was trending at No. 1 on Twitter, a landscapes for everyone and to support access to nature testament to the current public interest and engagement for those who think they need it most. MHCLG’s with nature. levelling up fund supports local infrastructure in this I hope that the Government work with Members way, very much including green spaces. MHCLG and from across the House to achieve change for our local Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs communities and leave a lasting legacy of improved officials are working closely together, as my hon. Friend nature and wildlife. Those of us who already believe in hopes, to ensure that this is really joined up and working the power of nature and its healing content are completely well. sold on this, but we need to make sure that others can get out there and access nature in order to ensure that Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): May I say what a they too can have improved health and wellbeing. We joy it is to see the hon. Member for Chatham and must always be conscious that not everyone has that. I Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) looking so well? We all look am afraid that, with housing developments and the forward to seeing her back in the Chamber again; I just planning system as they are at the moment, more and cannot wait. I will try to hug her if I am allowed; we will more of that is being lost. see how that goes. I am aware that I am very fortunate Given the events of the past year, I am confident that to live on a farm, and am able to go for walks, which there is willpower among Back Benchers to make real really improves my mental health. Other people do not change in this area. As the recovery begins, people have that opportunity, and the Minister is outlining a speak of their desire to return to normality, but when it very good programme for how to address that. 61WH Mental Health: Access to Nature27 APRIL 2021 Mental Health: Access to Nature 62WH

[Jim Shannon] activities such as community allotments, green gyms and conservation volunteering, which specifically target This morning on TV there was a show educating communities which have been badly hit by the pandemic. primary school age children on planting, encouraging We are also committed to ensuring that the public engagement with nature. There are many groups, such have good access to footpaths. For example, we are as the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the developing the England coastal path, which will be the National Trust, the British Association for Shooting longest way-marked and maintained coastal walking and Conservation and the Countryside Alliance, that route in the world. We are also planning a new northern would be willing, I believe, to partner with the Government coast-to-coast national trail. Weintend to table legislation to ensure that those people who do not have ready this year that will enable unrecorded historic rights of access to nature can engage like that, and can use the way to be registered more easily, which should protect green corridors that are there. them for future users. As the hon. Lady said, our future farming policies are very much targeted towards rewarding Victoria Prentis: It is always a pleasure to speak with farmers who bring about environmental benefits, and the hon. Gentleman, and he is right to highlight the access to farmland for the general public is very much a work that various groups are doing to encourage all of part of this. us to engage with nature in a more educated way. An example of the type of action that we envisage Indeed, my own community was excited to find a great paying for in the future would be well signposted footpaths crested newt in my neighbour’s pond this morning, and in places that are easily accessible from towns as well as we immediately got on to the RSPB who are full of more rural communities. I am very keen on creating information about great crested newts, and that is just circular walks and bike rides wherever possible, and I one example of the work that can be done on a very know that my hon. Friend will be particularly keen on local level to make sure that we all enjoy nature in an the bike access, as well as the allotment progress. educated and appreciative way. Specifically on the points that my hon. Friend makes To go back to the Government schemes, we have an about the Environment Bill, the Bill will, if passed, £80 million green recovery challenge fund, which has require the Government to set and meet ambitious been set up to kickstart nature-based projects across targets on biodiversity, together with those on air, water England in order to help with the recovery from the and waste. The Government feel that what she is seeking pandemic. One example of what we have done through to achieve is inbuilt in the very nature of the Environment this fund is to create 12 tiny forests across urban areas Bill, and will in future be protected for the public by the in England. This fund is also being used to work specifically new Office for Environmental Protection. Nevertheless, on projects in NHS facilities. I am sure that we will continue to have many discussions I would like to join the hon. Gentleman in saying how during the passage of that Bill about the right way to absolutely fantastically well my hon. Friend the Member achieve these really important goals. I encourage Members for Chatham and Aylesford is looking today—I know from across the House to continue to engage with that she spent far too much of the last year in NHS DEFRA to help us identify new opportunities for increasing facilities, and she will appreciate how important it is for access to, and meaningful engagement with, the natural patients, who may not be very mobile or feeling very world. well, to be able to go and sit somewhere or just enjoy Thank you, Mr Davies, and I thank my hon. Friend nature around them during their treatment. I, sadly, once again for this excellent debate. had to spend many hours in A&E on Saturday with a family member—all was well, I hasten to add—and Philip Davies (in the Chair): Can I also say from the when I came out I was privileged to walk along the Chair what a delight it is to see the hon. Member for canal. That blue space was critical in helping me calm Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) looking so down and really put the day’s events in context. It was well? If the promise or threat—I am not sure which it very useful. was—of a hug from the hon. Member for Strangford Another example of our work to support equitable (Jim Shannon) at the appropriate time does not give us access to nature is the cross-Department project led by something to look forward to, I do not know what will. DEFRA which aims to tackle mental health specifically Question put and agreed to. through green social prescribing. I heard about a brilliant initiative from a GP’s surgery in Newcastle where they prescribe working in the GPs’ allotment to help patients 11.21 am feel better.These services link people directly to nature-based Sitting suspended. 63WH 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 64WH

Fire and Rehire Fire and rehire must not be allowed to continue. Workers should not be forced to choose between losing pay or losing their jobs. Parliament must act urgently to [MRS SHERYLL MURRAY in the Chair] outlaw this form of industrial blackmail. That is why I, along with my union Unite, am calling for fire and 2.30 pm rehire to be included in next month’s Queen’s Speech, Mrs Sheryll Murray (in the Chair): I remind Members either in the Employment Bill or as stand-alone emergency that there have been some changes to normal practices legislation. It is a national emergency and disgrace that in order to support the new hybrid arrangements. Timings one in 10 workers are currently threatened with a practice of debates have been amended to allow technical that, in the words of the Prime Minister,is “unacceptable” arrangements to be made for the next debate. There will and in the words of the Minister here today is “bully also be suspensions between each debate. I remind boy tactics.” I am not entirely convinced that the Prime Members participating physically and virtually that they Minister knows what fire and rehire is or what it is must arrive for the start of debates in Westminster Hall. doing to thousands of workers across the UK. Members are expected to remain for the entire debate. Fire and rehire is not a new phenomenon but it has I must also remind Members participating virtually gained prominence because of the conduct of many that they are visible at all times, both to each other and major employers, such as British Airways, Heathrow to us in the Boothroyd Room. If Members attending airport and British Gas, some in circumstances that virtually have any technical problems, they should email they claim to be justified by the covid pandemic. The the Westminster Hall Clerks’ email address. Members practice has highlighted how weak the current unfair attending physically should clean their spaces before dismissal laws are in this country and how they need to they use them and as they leave the room. I also remind be strengthened. Members that Mr Speaker has stated that masks should I take this opportunity to highlight the example of be worn in Westminster Hall. my constituent Matthew from Hebburn, who is one of We are expecting votes this afternoon, so if there is many of my constituents who have been affected by fire any Member who needs to leave to vote, could they and rehire. Matthew had worked for British Gas for please indicate now? Thank you very much. 16 years. He was an exemplary worker, once proud to drive his blue van, who would have been happy to see 2.31 pm out the rest of his working life with the company. He is Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab): I beg to move, now newly self-employed, having been one of the 300 to That this House has considered fire and rehire practices. 400 staff who lost their jobs for refusing to sign up to new contracts, terms and conditions imposed by British It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Gas for nothing more than corporate greed. Mrs Murray.This debate has been oversubscribed, which I think says something about the strength of feeling and Despite making more profit than in the previous the level of anger at this appalling practice. I thank all year, British Gas has used the pandemic as a cover to hon. and right hon. Members for taking part today. impose a “take it or leave it” 15% pay cut and other One cannot help but notice the lack, or rather the changes that have affected the time their workforce complete absence, of Conservative MPs from today’s call spend with their families, by making the working week list. I do hope this is not a reflection on how seriously three hours longer. That is a whole month of additional the Government take this issue, but I suspect that is the labour added to the year. case. Perhaps the Minister can prove me wrong. Last year British Gas issued Matthew with a fire and I would like to pay tribute to the workers of our rehire ultimatum, giving him and his colleagues a deadline country—the women and men who have battled so hard of 23 December. They were told that if they did not throughout the past 14 months to keep the country agree with the terms offered, worse terms would be going in the face of covid-19. Many workers have lost forced upon them. This deadline was pushed back until friends, colleagues and family members to this terrible 25 March. Matthew refused to be bullied by British Gas virus, and now at least one in 10 of them face a further and was therefore given his notice on Monday 29 March. pandemic of opportunistic employers using covid-19 as I send solidarity to Matthew and all other workers. a cover to dramatically reduce workers’ pay and terms What has happened to loyal workers like Matthew at and conditions. Fire and rehire is a process that involves British Gas is an absolute scandal. It shows utter contempt sacking workers and hiring them back on lower wages for the loyalty many have shown for much of their working and worse terms and conditions—a practice that, according lives. British Gas, Centrica and their chief executive to research published earlier this year by the TUC, has officer Chris O’Shea should be ashamed of this reckless had a disproportionate impact on black, Asian and ethnic corporate bullying. It is sad to see what has happened to minority workers, young workers and working-class people. British Gas, once a nationally respected institution but However, fire and rehire is not new. In 2009, the now a poster boy for the virus of poor employment Confederation of British Industry boasted of using the practice that is spreading like another contagious deadly financial crash to establish a so-called flexiforce, in effect disease across the UK. using economic uncertainty as a cover to replace permanent workers with flexible workers. The economic uncertainty In London, staff at Goodlord were given a choice to stemming from the pandemic has provided another take a pay cut or become unemployed. Goodlord asked opportunity for big business to shift power even further staff to take a contract with a lower rate of pay, which is away from workers so that they can boost long-term below the London living wage. profits for shareholders. These are some of the same In Manchester, Go North West drivers have been on companies that have made use of public money through an all-out strike for over 50 days against cruel fire and the Government’s job retention scheme. rehire abuses by bosses. The company wants to fire and 65WH Fire and Rehire 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 66WH

[Kate Osborne] for all. I hope to see that in next month’s Queen’s Speech, either in the Employment Bill or in stand-alone rehire its drivers and force them to work longer for no emergency legislation. additional pay, while also cutting sick pay for drivers with more than five years’ service. Mrs Sheryll Murray (in the Chair): This debate is very over-subscribed, so I suggest that the first speaker takes InLoughborough,globalfieldserviceengineersemployed four minutes and the rest take three minutes. If that is by Brush Electrical Machines, owned by Melrose, are the case, everybody should be able to get in. being balloted for strike action in response to fire and rehire pay cuts of up to £15,000. The proposed contracts 2.42 pm include reductions to overtime rates, allowances and holidays. The engineers have been threatened with Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure to redundancy if they do not sign the new contracts, which serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray.It is important will leave them on pay rates well below industry standards. to recognise the situation facing the ordinary workers in this country who are facing these draconian fire and In Oxfordshire, Jacobs Douwe Egberts will stop workers rehire measures. I congratulate my hon. Friend—my from taking summer holidays to thwart an overtime great friend—the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) ban, starting on 1 May, in an ongoing fire and rehire on bringing this debate to Westminster Hall today. It is dispute. My own union Unite is representing its members the working people who have kept our country on its in all these disputes, but the problem goes much deeper feet. They are the true heroes in every sense of the word. and will only grow if the job retention scheme comes to It is the keyworkers, mainly low-paid workers, not the an end. hedge fund managers, Government cronies or indeed the highly paid, who are being subjected to what the Last year, the Government asked the Advisory, Minister quite rightly framed as “bullyboy tactics”. Conciliation and Arbitration Service to produce a report on the full extent of fire and rehire, which was received Security of employment is so important to hard-working by Ministers on 17 February. Despite numerous pledges individuals and their families. Is it not right that ordinary to release the report and respond to it, the Government people are treated with absolute dignity and fairness, not are still dragging their feet, leading us to wonder what as inconvenient necessities by fat cat millionaires who ACAS has written that the Government do not want us frankly would sell their own grandmothers for a pound? to read. The scourge of fire and rehire practices, which have always haunted workforces, has expanded rapidly since On 23 March, I asked the Under-Secretary of State for the beginning of the pandemic. The Prime Minister Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy,the hon. Member himself stated that it was capitalism and greed that got for Derby North (Amanda Solloway), during Business, us through this covid pandemic. My message to the Prime Energy and Industrial Strategy questions if she could Minister is that it was the workforce of this country that confirm when we would get a chance to see the ACAS got us to where we are today, and the reward for many report. The Minister told me that the Government find of them is fire and rehire. These are human beings. They the practice of fire and hire “unacceptable”, but could are real people, with mortgages, rent payments, credit not give me a date or time when the ACAS report would cards and credit, with kids and families, with expectations be released. Here we are, one month later, and the and with ambitions, who have been treated appallingly Government are still dragging their feet on this. I hope by employers who care little and a Government that talk the Minister will tell us today when the Government the talk but fail to walk the walk. As my hon. Friend intend to make the ACAS report available, because they said in her opening speech, whether it be Goodlord, certainly appear to want to bury it. where salaries are being slashed by up to £6,000, whether We have heard a lot from this Government about it be Go North West where salaries are being slashed by levelling up and how Brexit will give us the opportunity up to £2,500, Jacobs Douwe Egberts with £7,000 a year to have higher standards across the board. Now is the lopped off salaries, or Melrose Brush with potentially Government’s chance to prove that they are serious £15,000 a year slashed off people’s salaries. These are about that. They must understand that well-paid, secure real people. What about the Heathrow worker with work is good for the economy, and greater security for 40 years’ service, expected to take a 39.1% pay reduction? workers would mean a stronger and quicker recovery. The list goes on and on. Our friends across Europe understand this. The practice This is legalised robbery; it is legalised theft, with of fire and rehire is already banned in Ireland, Spain astonishing consequences for those doing the right thing. and France, and is seen as unacceptable in other competitor It is ruthless corporate bullying. It is intimidation. It is economies, where Governments step in to defend their harassment of people with families, people with bills to workers. Last week, the Government moved quickly to pay. We all agree that this is a time of great uncertainty. stop the European super league in its tracks. It showed Fire and rehire must be outlawed. If it is good enough that they can make things happen when they want for Ireland, France and Spain, by goodness it is good to—and feel that they will get a popularity bounce off enough here in the UK. Where is the much-awaited ACAS the back of it. report, Minister? Come clean. What are you hiding? Publish it if you can. This is simply unacceptable in The Government have made all the right noises about modern-day Britain. Coming out of a year-long pandemic, fire and rehire, but so far have done absolutely nothing Minister, ensure that the draconian practice of fire and about it. I hope the Minister will tell us when the rehire is outlawed in the Queen’s Speech. Fix this now Government will back up their words with action and and fix it for good—and for those workers out there, act to outlaw this immoral practice. If this Government join a union. are serious about levelling up and raising standards, they must commit to ending fire and rehire once and Mrs Sheryll Murray (in the Chair): Order. 67WH Fire and Rehire 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 68WH

2.46 pm that gas workers were and are skilled, trusted, doing an Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland essential job, keeping our communities safe. Theirs was West) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure to serve under your historically a good, secure job, not least because of the chairmanship today,Mrs Murray.I begin by congratulating history of strong trade unionism. my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) In 1889 Will Thorne founded the National Union of on securing her first Westminster Hall debate on such Gas Workers and General Labourers—now the GMB— an important subject and her excellent speech. It is also that fought against the shameful treatment meted out to a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for workers in Victorian times. Generations fought to consign Wansbeck (Ian Lavery). such treatment to history, including my union, Unite, I first raised fire and rehire with the Prime Minister asserting the dignity of labour. on 16 December 2020 at Prime Minister’s Question The history of the gas industry is also one of trade Time, after highly skilled engineers at Centrica British unions acting as agents of change, managing sometimes Gas were told they had to sign new contracts before difficult processes of change, seeking negotiated outcomes. Christmas or else they would be fired and rehired in the Gas workers also fought for their country.The Hollyfields new year on worse terms. The Prime Minister’s response Sports and Conference Centre in my constituency has a was deeply concerning: barrier on which are written the names of 250 workers “it is also vital that we have a flexible economy that is able to who died fighting for their country in the first and generate jobs, particularly when we are going to go through a very second world wars. difficult and bumpy time.”—[Official Report, 16 December 2020; In 21st century Britain we see a throwback to Victorian Vol. 686, c. 272.] times, to the kind of treatment meted out to workers During this “very difficult and bumpy time”, as the that we thought was history. Paul Vowles of the GMB Prime Minister put it, is exactly when people need from Birmingham has said of the 350 members who stability and certainty in their lives. Yet according to have lost their jobs that, Unite the Union, one in 10 workers is already threatened “They were salt of the earth, doing a good job, now ending up with fire and rehire, and many more are likely to face out of work.” this manipulative process as furlough comes to an end. British Gas could have negotiated an outcome. It Earlier this month, I was saddened to see approximately might have been difficult, but they could have done it. 350 British Gas engineers lose their jobs because they They chose instead to use fire and rehire, like too many refused to sign a contract with worse terms and pay. employers in the current climate. The TUC estimates Equally sad is the thousands upon thousands of other that one in 10 workers have suffered from such treatment GMB members at British Gas signing new but worse or the threat of it. Even worse, some of the employers contracts under duress. Yet when my hon. Friend the benefiting from Government support through the covid Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Johnson) raised crisis are the same employers taking advantage of fire it with the Prime Minister just last week, he was not and rehire, which is utterly contemptible. even aware of the issue. Four months on from my It is clear that the GMB and Unite stand ready to question, hundreds have been sacked and the Prime negotiate a solution but the company is not interested. Minister still does not have an answer. We have to bring home the human consequences. Chris It is not just British Gas engineers either; fire and O’Shea, the chief executive, says, rehire is also used by British Airways in Heathrow, and “You’ve got a duty to make your colleagues’ lives as easy as I am sure my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes possible.” and Harlington (John McDonnell) will go into further detail on those disputes. Go North West drivers have Tell that to the single mum who complains of chest been on strike for more than 50 days, while Jacobs pains and says, Douwe Egberts coffee producers is starting an indefinite “It makes me feel sick that I am nothing more than something on overtime ban on International Workers Day, 1 May, the bottom of Chris O’Shea’s expensive shoes.” and engineers at Brush Electrical Machines are balloting Tell that to the gas worker who every single day during for action against pay cuts of up to £15,000. lockdown worked for the Trussell Trust, delivering to Fire and rehire is an exploitative and illegitimate the elderly and vulnerable. negotiation tactic that causes real hurt and anger.Household In conclusion, what we thought we had consigned to names have betrayed decades of trust from the nation. history now haunts the world of work. I say this to the These tactics damage not only their workforces but Minister: warm words have been issued in relation to their customer base, who will feel the same way at the fire and rehire, but the time has come for the Government disgraceful way those businesses treat their employees. to act, including in the Queen’s Speech. The Government have an opportunity with the upcoming Queen’s Speech to work with Labour and the relevant 2.53 pm trade unions such as Unite and the GMB to introduce Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure vital legislation that will ban fire and rehire practices to see you in the chair, Mrs Murray. I thank my hon. and give workers the stability and assurances that they Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) for need at this—again in the Prime Minister’s own words— securing this debate. Fire and rehire is the latest in a “very difficult and bumpy time”. long line of tools used by the Tories and bullying bosses to drive down pay and conditions of workers. It is a 2.49 pm form of legalised robbery. The same work—sometimes Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): It is a more—is expected to be done but for less pay. The aim pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray. is simple: to transfer wealth from wages to profits. How George the gas man was a good friend of my dad when do they hope to get away with that? By exploiting I was a kid. I learned through him, and saw subsequently, workers’ insecurity at a time of crisis. When we should 69WH Fire and Rehire 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 70WH

[Richard Burgon] personal experience of the cost, because my brother and many of his colleagues lost their jobs because of be building a fairer society out of the covid crisis, their refusal to sign inferior new contracts with British unscrupulous bosses are being given a green light to Gas under the terms of fire and rehire. Years of loyalty intimidate workers into accepting worse pay and conditions. and skills were cast on to the scrapheap because certain This is not just about the one in 10 workers threatened companies wanted to make workers pay for the pandemic, so far. Fire and rehire is the new Tory blueprint for the and protect shareholder profits. It is beyond contempt. whole economy. It will grow dramatically as furlough The Minister condemned those bully-boy tactics last ends, unless the law is changed. The aim is to drag down month; so when will he take action? The Government everyone’s terms and conditions, a real race to the have sat on the ACAS report on fire and rehire for more bottom. Workers lose out, bosses gain: it is Thatcherism than two months now. What does the report say? When on steroids. Of course, the Prime Minister claims he is will they release it? How will they address the concerns against this, but words are cheap; action is what matters. raised by those independent experts? The tactics of fire There is not a single Back-Bench Tory MP here for the and rehire are a stain on this country’s reputation, and debate. they harm our communities’ chances of rebuilding back The truth is that the Government could ban this from the pandemic. They are economically illiterate disgraceful practice overnight. If the Prime Minister and they destroy relationships between workers and introduced the legislation today, Labour would back it. employers, often beyond repair. I urge the Minister to With the stroke of a pen, the threat would be gone. outlaw fire and rehire—to commit to doing that in the Other countries have already banned fire and rehire. If Queen’s Speech—and to start to take action against only the Tories were as quick in responding to that issue employers that use those practices. Too many livelihoods as they are in responding to WhatsApp messages from have already been destroyed, and he must ensure that their corporate sponsors. As a trade union lawyer, before not one more person endures the pain that many have I became a Member of Parliament, I saw the immense already been subjected to. suffering of those subjected to fire and rehire, but now it is being carried out on an industrial scale, so the fightback 2.59 pm must be on an industrial scale too. I have joined British Gas workers on the GMB picket in Leeds, fighting back Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab): It is a pleasure to against that company’sappalling behaviour; and I commend serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray. I draw and congratulate Unite the Union on defending so attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ many workers who have been affected by fire and rehire Financial Interests, and congratulate my hon. Friend and on getting that agenda on to the national agenda. the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) on securing the debate at a time when the shameful practice of fire and I will end with a message to every worker who has rehire is increasingly weaponised by companies to exploit been forced to take action against the disgraceful practice. workers. Fire and rehire should never be acceptable in They have my absolute, unwavering support in standing any circumstances, and I would like to hear the Minister up to bully boy tactics and the shameful inaction of the commit to outlawing that anti-worker practice today. It Conservative Government. is nothing short of disgraceful that so many companies have been allowed to engage in it in the middle of a 2.56 pm global pandemic. Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab): It is an Fire and rehire is not the final option left to the honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray. companies in question. They are not struggling to make I declare an interest as a member of Unite and the ends meet. Many continue to pay their chief executive GMB, and because a family member was subjected to officers six or seven-figure salaries and to fork out fire and rehire. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for massive dividends to their shareholders, while claiming Jarrow (Kate Osborne) for securing this hugely important that they cannot afford to pay their staff a decent day’s debate, and for her powerful speech. wages for a decent day’s work. In the case of British I want to give my support and solidarity to my Airways, whose former chief executive officer I had the constituents and many people across the country who misfortune to encounter on several occasions during my have been subjected to the immoral practice of fire and time on the Transport Committee, it attempted to force rehire. Weshould be in no doubt that it destroys livelihoods, fire and rehire down the throats of its staff despite families and communities, and my disdain for companies making tens of millions of taxpayers’money for furloughing using that weapon to cause such misery in 2021 during a its workers, and despite the parent company IAG having pandemic knows no bounds. I hope that the public will made billions in profits the previous financial year. show solidarity and support for the workers who are Thanks in large part to the efforts of my union Unite, affected, by using their consumer choice and power British Airways was forced to ditch some of its plans to wisely, and that they will show their disdain for any fire and rehire 30,000 of their staff. company that chooses that path. British Airways was not, sadly, the only UK major Bad employers, including a number that have made employer whose reputation has now been trashed as a huge profits in the past year, such as British Gas owner result of the decision to pursue that policy. Last year, Centrica, which posted profits in 2020 of £447 million, British Gas told its shareholders that it would slash have exploited the pandemic to cut the pay and conditions 5,000 jobs and committed to forcing the remaining of workers, through fire and rehire. The roll-call of 2,000 to undergo a fire and rehire process before it had shame is a long one. A few of the worst are British Gas, engaged with the GMB union. In January, Centrica British Airways, and Go North West, but there are many chief executive Chris O’Shea told the Business, Energy others—the TUC estimates that one in seven workers in and Industrial Strategy Committee that the company the UK will be under threat from the practice. I have had been forced to issue the fire and rehire threat before 71WH Fire and Rehire 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 72WH talks began, by law. In a leaked email that I have here a week, with reduced terms and pay, in a fire and rehire from 22 February, of which I have been made aware, scenario, forcing many of the employees to accept and Mr O’Shea informed British Gas’s human resources plunging them into poverty. A company in the process team it would no longer use fire and rehire as a strategy. of taking over airline catering from British Airways, Do He writes in the email that & Co, refused to put its workers on the extended coronavirus “I recognise that the use of fire and rehire has led to a lack of job retention scheme, leaving hundreds unemployed. trust, and I understand the impact this has had on morale, which These are just a few examples in my constituency. For is why we pledge never to revisit the use of fire and rehire again.” many, it is already too late. Even after British Airways If he would never consider fire and rehire again, why eventually ended its fire and rehire practices after incredible did he previously say that it was the only option when work from trade unions and employees, many had still appearing before a Select Committee? I am deeply fallen victim to them. concerned that Mr O’Shea may have misled Parliament While the past year has been undeniably difficult for in the way that he defended himself, given the subsequent businesses, fire and rehire tactics are never acceptable, email in which he explicitly states that he would consider and I commend the excellent work of unions including another option. Unite, Unison and GMB, which have saved and protected The reality is that Mr O’Shea’s actions mean that people will thousands of jobs. The Government must do more. no longer think of British Gas as a proud British company, and Without direct action from the Government, others will maybe it is time for him to consider his own position. It would continue to follow, thinking it is acceptable to run their certainly be one way of saving the country £775,000. Local businesses in such a dire way. authorities have also been caught up in the unsavoury practice, including the Conservative-run Thurrock Council, with changes to terms and conditions that see workers losing over £3,000 a year. Thankfully, an election is coming up next week, so perhaps 3.5 pm that will also be consigned to the dustbin of history. Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray, and I 3.2 pm also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): I am (Kate Osborne) for her hard work in securing this grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate debate. I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Osborne) for securing this important debate to ensure Members’ Financial Interests. that we can all deliberate upon the abhorrent practice of This month, hundreds of British Gas engineers,including fire and rehire that has, sadly, acutely affected many of many living in my constituency of Birkenhead, were my Slough constituents. Our proximity to Heathrow sacked by the parent company Centrica. Despite many airport and our employment reliance on the aviation years of loyal service, they were thrown on the scrapheap sector has meant that the sector’s crash has impacted because they refused to accept a devastating cut to their the jobs of thousands of my constituents.Those devastating pay and working conditions. They were not alone: from job losses have been exacerbated by companies taking Heathrow airport to the Go North West buses in advantage, forcing employees into inferior pay and Manchester,one in 10 British workers has been threatened conditions or risk losing their jobs. with fire and rehire practices over the past year. With Even prior to the covid-19 pandemic, UK employment 70% of those companies continuing to turn a profit, law was inadequate. The past year has simply strengthened this is not about economic necessity, but about large the case for stronger employee rights and protections. corporations cynically exploiting a public health crisis Back in 2019, the Government promised an employment to further line the pockets of shareholders. Bill to protect and enhance workers’ rights. Even the We have heard plenty of warm words from Ministers Minister answering the debate today said in November at the Dispatch Box about this issue. The Prime Minister 2020 that has called fire and rehire “unacceptable”, and the Leader “using threats about firing and rehiring as a negotiating tactic is of the House has called it “bad practice”, but they still unacceptable.”—[Official Report, 10 November 2020; Vol. 683, refuse to act. Workers in the UK enjoy no more protections c. 717.] at work today than they did when the pandemic began, Yet nothing has changed since then. These immoral because this Government care more about cosying up tactics have predominantly affected the hard-working to their friends in the private sector than they do about individuals in the aviation industry in Slough, but standing up for British workers and the very communities unfortunately they are not alone in being subject to them. they have promised to level up. That is why they have sat One of the most blatant uses of fire and rehire seen on a report from ACAS for two long months; it is why, by my constituents has been with British Gas and when my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside its parent company Centrica. Before negotiations began, (Kim Johnson) asked the Prime Minister to extend his Centrica’s chief executive officer Chris O’Shea had put support to British Gas engineers, he acted as if it was that threat on the table. In evidence to the Business, Energy the first he had heard about it. I doubt anyone believes and Industrial Strategy Committee, he noted that he that. was forced into that position, but a letter from ACAS Voters in the so-called red wall seats should ask later revealed that the company has recognised the impact themselves why there is not one single Conservative that fire and rehire has had on the workforce, and has Back Bencher present today. The answer is simple: they confirmed that, as part of this agreement, they will never fundamentally do not care. What the British people use fire and rehire in any shape or form in the future. need now is decisive action to stamp out this abhorrent British Gas are, devastatingly, not alone in carrying practice once and for all, so I call on the Minister to out these unacceptable actions. Dnata, an airline catering ensure that measures outlawing fire and rehire are included company, offered its workers contracts for just 20 hours in the Queen’s Speech next month. 73WH Fire and Rehire 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 74WH

[Mick Whitley] furloughed, which indicates that those jobs are insecure. All this activity underlines how acutely we need legal It is time that the Government put their money where protections and a decent social security net. their mouth is, but we must go further still. We have to These workers’ demands are very moderate. They do roll back decades of anti-trade union legislation that not want Government contracts, or ready access to the has fostered a culture in which employers feel free to Chancellor; they are only looking for a living wage, attack the rights and conditions of their workers with decent holiday entitlement and the right not to have to total impunity, as so many have during the pandemic. If work too many hours in a week. the Government are really serious about building back better in the wake of this terrible pandemic, they need 3.11 pm to not only put an end to the plague of fire and rehire Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab) [V]: It is a tactics, but stop seeing trade unions as the enemy within pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray. and realise the vital role they have to play in building an I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow economy that truly works for everyone. (Kate Osborne) for securing the debate and I declare an interest as a member of Unite. 3.8 pm Pay and terms and conditions of work are fundamental Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP) [V]: I thank the to the lives that people can afford to lead and the pensions hon. Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) for having they will be entitled to. Constituents have written to me secured today’s debate. Research from the Trades Union describing fire and rehire as abusive,appalling and immoral, Congress shows that since the first lockdown, one in and they are right. It is an attack on the rights of 10 workers has been threatened with fire and rehire, and working people, who generate the wealth that shareholders that lower paid workers and black and minority ethnic enjoy and who provide the services we need. Dismissing workers have been more than twice as likely to face this workers in order to re-employ them on worse terms and practice. As Members have said, although this has been conditions is quite simply wrong, and it is shameful that a challenging year for business, over 70% of the companies any employer would engage in those cynical tactics. The involved in this practice have been profitable, and over Government must ban fire and rehire. half have been receiving public money during the pandemic. As a member of Unite, I was proud to support It has never been so clear that this is a battle between yesterday’s day of action and I pay tribute to the work big bosses and the low-paid worker, and the Minister of the trade union movement. It is a matter of deep has correctly characterised these as “bully-boy tactics”, concern that the practice of fire and rehire seems to but unfortunately, action has not followed those words. have become more common since the start of the pandemic. We are now four months post Brexit, and not a single Deploying such a tactic at such a time is particularly piece of legislation enhancing rights or standards has shameful, and there have been high-profile disputes reached the Floor of the House, although we hear daily involving companies such as British Airways, British through various drips, leaks and texts that the voices of Gas, Go North West, Jacobs Douwe Egberts, and Brush those who are doing quite nicely are being heard loud Electrical Machines. and clear by the Government. The false promises that Earlier this year, the TUC estimated that since March we had of a prosperous Brexit are increasingly being 2020 nearly one worker in 10 has been told to reapply exposed as cover for a race to the bottom on regulations, for their job on worse terms and conditions. The research including protections for workers, and time and again showed that young people have been particularly badly the Government have dodged converting rhetoric and affected, with nearly a fifth of 18 to 24-year-olds who reassurances into standards and legislative protections. were surveyed saying that their employer has tried to Earlier this year, they were embarrassed into axing a rehire them on inferior terms during the pandemic. review of ending the 48-hour maximum working week According to the TUC, 15% of the black and minority and a review of attempting to remove overtime pay. The ethnic workers it surveyed have faced fire and rehire, pandemic has exposed how precariously and how close compared with 8% of the white workers it surveyed. to the edge many people have been living, and shown Earlier this year, the Department for Business, Energy that many people—indeed, most people—want a fairer and Industrial Strategy engaged ACAS to gather evidence future. of how fire and rehire is being used. The Government The term “gig economy”now refers to almost 5 million received evidence from ACAS on 17 February, yet still workers. We have heard how £6 per hour is not unusual they have not published it or responded to it. That is pay for fast-food delivery drivers, and that couriers simply not good enough, so will the Minister commit often have such punitive schedules that they cannot himself today to publishing the evidence and his take toilet breaks. Flexibility is absolutely a welcome Department’s response to it without further delay? concept in the economy, but these business models put In January, a Labour motion tabled in the House of all the risk on to workers and allow the owners of the Commons called on the Government to set out for ideas behind them to accrue all the capital. Instead of Parliament a timetable to introduce legislation to end the Government designing protections that reflect the fire and rehire tactics. The motion was carried by 263 votes reality of modern working life, workers have to go to to zero, with MPs on the Government Benches abstaining. court to achieve basic protections. That was profoundly disappointing and showed how We are also experiencing a wage squeeze. In November, little the Conservatives care about workers’ rights, terms the Office for National Statistics said that there were and conditions. hundreds of thousands of jobs in which employees over Make no mistake—the Government’s lack of action the age of 16 were being paid below the legal minimum, is causing misery and financial difficulties for working and the number is only increasing. Also, those in the people. The Secretary of State has described fire and lowest-paying jobs are over five times more likely to be rehire as unacceptable, and the Minister who is here 75WH Fire and Rehire 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 76WH today has condemned it many times in his own words, (Gavin Newlands), for his tireless work on the issue. It is yet Government legislation to end those shameful tactics important to recognise his efforts in this area, even has not been forthcoming. Will the Minister do what though there has sadly been a collective oversight of his the Prime Minister failed to do last week and guarantee Bill in the debate so far. that there will be a commitment to end fire and rehire in Frankly, many of us are fed up with the members of the forthcoming Queen’s Speech? the UK Government condemning this practice while doing nothing to address it. Finger-wagging and head 3.13 pm shaking are not going to stop this appalling practice, but legislation will, yet the Government refuse to adopt Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab) [V]: I thank my my hon. Friend’s Bill. While the Government do nothing, hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) for we see Centrica workers fired without redundancy for securing this incredibly important debate. Fire and rehire refusing to submit to this appalling treatment. British practices have become endemic during covid-19, including Airways staff, too, have been subject to this repressive at Goodlord, Go North West, Jacobs Douwe Egberts, and regressive practice, with Tesco also guilty and others and British Gas, and I fear that they will only become sure to follow. more common as the furlough scheme comes to an end. It is a matter of deep regret and anger in Scotland I have received much correspondence from constituents that the Labour party, working alongside the Tories, here in Cynon Valley detailing the distress and pain conspired in the Smith commission against Scotland caused by these bullying tactics. I commend the trade having power over employment law, which would have unions, including my own union Unite, for the tireless allowed us to protect workers in Scotland. Clearly, the work they are doing to expose these exploitative fire Union is more important to the Labour party than the and rehire tactics, and I stand in solidarity with all rights of workers, many of whom fund the Labour workers who take industrial action to oppose them. party. That is flawed logic indeed, a logic that workers in Fire and rehire has little to do with the pandemic. Scotland are increasingly rejecting. The sudden change Covid-19 is being used as a smokescreen for unscrupulous of heart from the current leader of the Scottish Labour businesses to do what they have long done—erode party to support the devolution of employment law to workers’ rights, slash pay, and keep wages and benefits Scotland—this Damascene conversion as we approach low to increase value for shareholders. The Government’s election day—is unconvincing and extremely cynical, complacency on the matter has been taken as a green since it was Labour that blocked such devolution in the light. first place. I am sympathetic to the unprecedented position in Let us stop all the hand-wringing and bring my hon. which UK businesses find themselves, but businesses Friend’s Bill to the House again, and let us support it. using fire and rehire tactics are not doing so because of As for Scotland, we will make our own decisions on their economic situation. Using the impact of the covid-19 employment law soon enough, when we secure and go pandemic to attempt to drive down pay and benefits is on to win an independence referendum. Then workers not going to wash. It is unacceptable that a company in England will be able to look to Scotland to see what such as Centrica plc—parent company of British Gas— protecting and supporting workers in a fair and just which continues to report hundreds of millions in profit society really looks like. each year can even consider forcing unfavourable contracts on its staff. Sadly, that reflects what I believe is an entrenched attitude in boardrooms across the country: 3.19 pm employees are not a vital resource to be invested in and Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab) [V]: I refer Members supported, but rather an operational cost for those of the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ businesses that must be kept to the bare minimum. That Financial Interests, in particular my membership of is underpinned by a capitalist model that unfailingly Unite. I start by thanking my hon. Friend the Member puts shareholders ahead of the workers who create that for Jarrow (Kate Osborne), who is a good friend, for wealth. securing the debate. Fire and rehire places an immediate financial burden The pandemic has changed the world of work for on workers, exposes them to more precarious relationships almost all workers. We have seen some employers go with employers and, in some cases, might even jeopardise above and beyond in supporting their employees, but, retirement plans. For firms to choose such a path knowing sadly, we have also seen some employers using it to the likely outcomes in the midst of a global pandemic is attack wages and terms and conditions for their own morally indefensible.That scandalous treatment of workers workforce. I am proud to be a Labour MP, so it should must be stopped. The Government must act now to not come as a surprise that I am a socialist and trade introduce legislation to outlaw that practice, as other unionist. Trade unions offer workers a voice in the countries have already done. By failing to do so, the workplace, and data tells us that unionised workplaces Government are once again choosing to support billionaire are not only safer, but benefit from better terms and bosses over the ordinary working people of this country. conditions. I am grateful to all trade unions for standing Diolch yn fawr. up for their members against employers who are taking advantage of the pandemic to increase profit margin at 3.16 pm the cost of their own workers. Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP) One such employer is British Gas. The parent company, [V]: Firing employees and rehiring them on reduced Centrica, has been in a long-standing dispute with the terms and conditions is a shocking way to treat workers, GMB union. I have had a GMB picket at the British and I am very proud of my SNP colleague, my hon. Gas office in my own constituency, in Brinnington Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North ward. A few days ago, the media reported that almost 77WH Fire and Rehire 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 78WH

[Navendu Mishra] questioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Johnson). In fact, he did not even 500 engineers had lost their jobs after refusing to be acknowledge the nature of the problem. forced into new contracts—a truly shameful day for a During the covid pandemic, one worker in 10 has been household brand such as British Gas. Rightly, the public threatened with fire and rehire. Many of those firms are will not forget how British Gas Centrica treated its receiving Government-funded support. The likelihood workforce. is that this is the tip of the iceberg. With furlough ending, Unfortunately, there is another dispute in Greater many more workers will face the threat of fire and rehire, Manchester at Go North West buses. Unite members at unless it is outlawed. As other Members have said, this bus operator had been on the picket line for more the Government asked ACAS to report on the extent than 60 days. They have been blackmailed into a taking of fire and rehire, and we now know, following a significant pay cut. Drivers at Go North West earn on responses to questions from me and from other Members, average £24,000 per year, but changes mean they will Ministers have had the report since 17 February. We have to work much longer hours for the same pay. In need to know what is in that report. Will the Minister real terms, that means a £2,500 pay cut. I have visited commit himself to releasing it this week before Parliament the picket line on three occasions to show my solidarity prorogues? The public, who fund ACAS, are entitled to with Go North West employees. know, and the many workers who, in effect, have been Fire and rehire has been used as an aggressive negotiation blackmailed, are entitled to know ACAS’s view of the tactic by household brands.That is completely unacceptable, practice. and we need urgent action, not warm words from the Lots of people are watching and want to know whose Government. Several Members have already asked when side the Minister and the Prime Minister are on. I hope we can we expect the ACAS report to be made public. the Minister will stand with hon. Members here today, As constituency MPs, we need to see the report to hold promise more than condemnation of fire and rehire, the Government to account. and take action to outlaw the practice once and for all. Urgent Government action is needed to end fire and That has happened in Ireland, Spain and France. rehire bullyboy tactics. It is all well and good to clap on the doorstep for our amazing key workers, but what 3.24 pm they need is clear Government legislation against fire and rehire tactics, rather than vague platitudes from John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab) [V]: I Ministers. Will the Minister call out bad employers such want briefly to outline some of the implications of fire as British Gas, Goodlord, Brush Electrical Machines and rehire in its latest use for individuals, families and and Go North West? We need real action from the communities. I refer to my entry in the Register of Government, not warm words. Members’ Financial Interests, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne), who Mrs Sheryll Murray (in the Chair): Thank you for has been an asset to her constituency and the House carrying on during the Division bell. since she was elected. The latest wave of fire and rehire, which is not a new phenomenon, started in my constituency at Heathrow 3.21 pm through the activities of British Airways and Heathrow Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab) [V]: It is an honour Airport Ltd. Both companies saw the pandemic as an to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray. I, too, opportunity to implement their long-held strategy of offer congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member cutting wages and undermining working conditions and for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) on securing her first debate terms of employment. The wages and the terms of on what is an important and timely issue—fire and employment were fought for over generations by trade rehire. It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the unions to ensure that people got a decent wage and were Member for Stockport (Navendu Mishra), as always, treated properly at work. That is all people wanted. and I declare that I am a member and chair of the Unite The reaction to the attempt to cut wages on such a parliamentary group. I was heartened to see the collective scale and to tear up employment agreements was, first, action and solidarity shown yesterday during Unite the absolute anger. The frustration among the workers at Union’s day of action against fire and rehire. Heathrow was palpable. The staff were so loyal. They Over the last year, Unite has opposed fire and rehire were proud to work for British Airways, the national tactics used by British Airways, Heathrow airport, and carrier, and many had worked there for decades. Whole SBS technologies. Let us not forget: without our trade families depend on the airport, working for either BA or unions, workers at those companies would have suffered Heathrow Ltd. They faced wage cuts, even though dramatic pay cuts and had their terms and conditions house prices and rents in my area are so high, and were worsened. However, the best safeguard against such under real stress, and they were looking at whether they unacceptable behaviour is to outlaw the practice. As my could maintain their livelihood and keep a decent roof hon. Friend the Member for Stockport said, many over their head. employers have behaved responsibly,but there are appalling That stress has brought about almost a mental health examples of bad employers using this bullyboy tactic, crisis in our community.There is real resentment because as it has been described by the Minister. It is within the those companies have made vast profits and taken power of the Minister and the Prime Minister to outlaw furlough money from the Government, and they were this practice. simply using a short-term crisis to impose long-term I was disappointed when the Prime Minister backtracked pay cuts. Owing to the resolution of my community, at Prime Minister’s Questions last week and refused individual workers, Unite the Union and others, we to commit to outlawing this disgraceful practice when fought back and have settled as best we can to protect 79WH Fire and Rehire 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 80WH people, but the protection can come in the longer responsible employers, who invest in their staff and term only if the Government act and introduce legislation work in partnership with them rather than antagonising to ban the practice of fire and rehire once and for all. them. Lord Hendy reminded us a couple of days ago that All the sympathetic statements and expressions from fire and rehire is not a new practice. The general strike the Dispatch Box do not change a thing for the workers, was provoked by it when the miners were sacked and who are still being bullied by companies and forced into brought back to work only if they accepted wage cuts. I wage cuts and changes to terms and conditions. I agree warn the Government: if they do not act and change with every word from Ministers that I have quoted. The the legislation, there will be more industrial action and difference is that they are Ministers and have the power more disputes, so they need to act with urgency. to act. As I have said previously, and as almost everyone Mrs Sheryll Murray (in the Chair): I thank everyone who has spoken today has said, the Government have a for keeping to the time limit, because everybody has got Queen’s Speech in a fortnight’s time, and that must— in. I call the SNP spokesperson, Gavin Newlands. must—contain a pledge on fire and rehire. They have at their disposal a Government machine that could have a 3.28 pm Bill drafted rapidly—I would be happy to send them a copy of mine to copy and paste from if that would Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) speed things along. They have a majority of 80 in this (SNP): It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair,Mrs Murray, House to get the Bill through its stages and on to the and I thank the hon. Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) statute book with a minimum of fuss. for securing this incredibly important debate. The fact that it is oversubscribed, similar to my own Westminster The time for words is over. The pictures of the British Hall debate in November when virtual participation Gas vans in the gas van graveyards across the country was not possible, shows how important most Members— should be evidence of that. Millions of workers across certainly Opposition Members—consider the issue. the country are judging the Government on their deeds, The Tory Government should be embarrassed that and so far the outcome has been lacking, to say the the debate is even necessary. Workers in other EU least. In summing up the debate, can the Minister please countries who happen across these proceedings through give that assurance? Potentially millions of workers some disastrous fault on their TV will think that Victoria across the UK are depending on it. is still on the throne and that the hard-fought-for workers’ The Government cannot say that this issue has not rights that were secured in the 20th century were but a been pointed out to them many, many times over recent dream. Workers in those countries have employment months. The last year has seen British Airways, British rights based on modernity, not Dickens novels. Gas, Menzies Aviation, Go North West, Heathrow airport Over the past year, I have proposed legislation that and even Tesco, to name just a few, treat their staff like would ban fire and rehire through a simple amendment chattels and threaten them with the sack if they did not to the Employment Rights Act 1996. I have raised the sign on the dotted line. I and many colleagues across the issue with Ministers in this place umpteen times. I have House have raised these disgraceful incidents with the been told by the Prime Minister that using threats of Government dozens of times over the last year. Just fire and rehire is unacceptable as a negotiating tactic. yesterday we saw protests outside IHG—InterContinental The Minister said that it is not acceptable to use it as a Hotels Group—hotels, following the sacking of 250 staff, bargaining or negotiating tactic. The Chief Secretary to some of whom were then asked to come back to their the Treasury said: previous jobs, but for less money and with poorer “I do not think it is acceptable to have a ‘fire and rehire’ working conditions. culture.”—[Official Report, 13 October 2020; Vol. 682, c. 171.] The Government know that this is an issue, because The Leader of the House told the Commons two weeks they are sitting on a report compiled by ACAS on it. ago: The fact that we had to force them into commissioning “The name of British Gas has now been traduced in this that report is damning, but they have been sitting on the House on a number of occasions. People who pay attention to report for more than two months now. More than seven our proceedings may feel that they dislike the way British Gas is weeks ago, I wrote to the Secretary of State, urging him behaving and want to get their gas supplied by another firm.”— to share the report. It should be laid before the House at [Official Report, 15 April 2021; Vol. 692, c. 504.] the earliest opportunity. The Government have to justify On that, I agree with the Leader of the House. Despite their lack of action and to apologise to the hundreds of giving the company every chance, I have now cancelled thousands of workers who have faced these threats my own British Gas contract. That is a small act with since they were highlighted to the Government and, in regard to a company with revenues just shy of £15 billion particular, to those who have taken redundancy when last year, but it is the power that each of us has as a they have been faced with these threats or, even worse, consumer. have been sacked without any redundancy pay when To be clear, the primary blame, in all these situations, they have refused to be bullied. Will the Minister, in his lies with the companies for making these threats, but the summing up, do just that and say sorry on behalf of the role of Government should be to ensure that any employer Government for their inaction? meets basic standards on worker rights and respect for I was proud to see the SNP manifesto launched two its workforce, and operates on a level playing field that weeks ago, with a promise to ban fire and rehire in rests on fundamental rights for its staff. Enshrining that Scotland if the powers over employment laware transferred level playing field in law will ensure that the spivs and to the Scottish Parliament. We have been waiting too chancers who seem to have a grip on so many blue-chip long for the UK Government to act and bring in companies can no longer undercut and undermine legislation to ban it. If they do not want to protect the 81WH Fire and Rehire 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 82WH

[Gavin Newlands] not to be treated in such a way. Centrica, British Gas’s parent company, is prevented from throwing the same rights of workers, they should give the powers to the tricks with Bord Gáis Energy employees because the Scottish Parliament, which will act to end the days of law in Ireland stops it from doing so. It only chose the bully-boy tactics and put those powers to good use. UK for these actions because it can. Centrica is still I am proud of the SNP policy, of course, but I think selling gas in Ireland and taking payment for that gas my cross-party record on this issue is clear. The fact that presumably because it makes money from it. The difference Members from every party in this House sponsored my is that the workers enjoy protection from fire and rehire. Bills is testament to that. Change of this nature happens That undermines any argument that legislation against only with cross-party support—not only with support fire and rehire would put companies at a disadvantage. from a united opposition, but with some support from They seem to be doing fine in countries that have the Government Benches. I know that the Minister has already banned it and that have rejected the insidious been lobbied hard on this issue by many of his colleagues. race to the bottom on employee rights that has characterised That is what makes me hopeful—perhaps naively so—about Tory Governments for decades. Fire and rehire is part commitments on this issue in the employment Bill. of that race to the bottom. However, although there is support from and This Government have the power to end that race campaigning by a great many Labour Members, including right now and legislate to give responsible businesses Labour colleagues of mine on the Transport Committee— the level playing field they deserve and our constituents the hon. Members for Easington (Grahame Morris), the protections they need to have a more stable and for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) and for sustainable livelihood. That benefits them, their families Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), and the hon. and the communities they live in. The warm words from Member for Ilford South (Sam Tarry), who was a the Government Benches over the last year do not member of that Committee—and many others, including provide that stability. Will there be a commitment in the the hon. Members for Slough (Mr Dhesi) and for Queen’s Speech to introduce a Bill banning fire and Liverpool, Wavertree (Paula Barker), I have been somewhat rehire once and for all? That would give more security disappointed by the lack of speed from the Labour and dignity to millions of workers who could face these leadership to give this issue the parliamentary attention tactics next. it deserves. In saying that, I am only reflecting the views of a 3.37 pm great many union members whom I have spoken with or who have contacted me. Working as one, we might have Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab): It is, of course, been able to force through quicker change that would a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mrs Murray. I have helped the British Gas engineers. Moving forward, declare my interest as a member of Unite, GMB and let us ensure that we have a laser-like focus on the issue, Unison. as too many have suffered these threats over the last I join other hon. Members in thanking my hon. year. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) for No one is saying that companies and occupations securing this important debate on fire and rehire tactics should be frozen in time, with no room for change when and for the timely manner in which she has done so, circumstances change. Of course this pandemic has had with the outrageous firing of hundreds of British Gas a huge impact on the bottom line for every business in employees earlier this month, just because they refused these isles and around the world, just as the crash of to be bullied by management into signing contracts that 2008, the recessions of the 1980s and 1990s and the put them on worse pay, and worse terms and conditions. energy crisis of the 1970s had an impact on trading My hon. Friend spoke passionately about that case and conditions, and I daresay there will come a point in the the abusive bullying behaviour of British Gas’smanagement. future when another economic shock will hit us. The She made a sound contribution that delivered a strong way to address those challenges is not by treating “Oliver defence of workers’ rights and the protections that Twist” as an employee relations handbook, but by should be afforded to them, but which sadly this working in partnership with workers and their Government have denied them. My only regret is that representatives to find a sustainable way forward that we are having to have this debate following this mass benefits all. firing at British Gas because the Government would That philosophy is embedded in European industry not step in when they should have properly done so. and commerce, and it is embedded in law. I think it is no I thank my hon. Friends for their passionate coincidence that every single one of those countries contributions. Let us be honest: the point has been outperformed the UK on economic output and on the made that it is only Members on the Opposition side standard of living their citizens enjoy. Nine out of 10 of who have contributed because the Government could the poorest areas of the European Union, as was, are in not even convince their own Back Benchers to turn up the UK. The race to the bottom on employment rights to defend the fire and rehire tactics that have become has dislocated our economic system to such an extent endemic on their watch. There is not only the cases of that the poorest out of 500 million people live within a their own constituents who have faced fire and rehire couple of hours of this place. tactics, but the use of these tactics by major companies Manyof the companies that have employed or threatened that have continued to make a profit throughout the to employ fire and rehire operate across international pandemic. borders. International Airlines Group, the owner of We must remember that fire and rehire tactics are not British Airways, could not copy the tactics they used in a new phenomenon, a point that has been made in this the UK with staff at Iberia and Aer Lingus because debate. They had been around long before the coronavirus those countries enshrined in law the rights of employees pandemic. However, the increasingly precarious nature 83WH Fire and Rehire 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 84WH of our economy and the Government’s refusal to do bad for everyone. The Government should ban it, so anything about it, along with the uncertainty created by why are they dragging their feet and what are they the pandemic, have given unscrupulous employers the waiting for? cover they need. Let us be clear: the employers making Last week, the Prime Minister spoke of dropping a use of these frankly deplorable tactics are unscrupulous— “legislative bomb” to stop the European football super there are simply no two ways about it. league, so they can act when they want to. However, he Under the threat of permanent dismissal at a time cannot even muster as much as a legislative firecracker when the jobs market could not be more challenging, to stop fire and rehire. Only last Wednesday, in response these unscrupulous employers are bullying their staff to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside into signing away their original contract. They are (Kim Johnson) during Prime Minister’s questions, the bullying them into signing a replacement contract where Prime Minister could not even remember the GMB pay is lower, rights are weaker and conditions less dispute with British Gas and the mass firing of workers favourable, and they are shoving those inferior contracts who refused to be bullied. No one should ever try to tell down the throats of their workers, who know full well us that this Prime Minister is in touch with working that they cannot refuse without being fired for good, as people. we saw at British Gas. Instead of the Government looking out for employment Despite that despicable behaviour, and the fact that rights, it has again fallen to trade unions to protect such shameful tactics amount to nothing more than working people and to oppose bully-boy tactics. Unite legalised blackmail of staff by employers, fire and rehire secured a resolution of the dispute with British Airways inexplicably remains perfectly legal under the Government, and continues to oppose Go North West’s buses plans, and big businesses such as Tesco and the coffee giant and the GMB had a valiant fight to protect jobs and Douwe Egberts, which have seen rising profits during livelihoods at British Gas, but their job is made harder the lockdown, are continuing shamelessly to use them. by the fact that the Government will not step in to help them by giving the vital legal backing that they need. As a result, those who cannot stand up to their employers and have to begrudgingly accept the new The use of fire-and-rehire tactics by unscrupulous contracts face incredible hardship, going from a job employers is a stain on our economy. The contributions that often comfortably supported them and their families made by hon. Members during this important debate to now being forced to rely on food banks, handouts make one thing clear: we cannot just temporarily stop and social security to make ends meet. Indeed, we all the use of fire-and-rehire tactics during this pandemic; saw the heart-breaking stories during the industrial we need to end them for good. Tothat end, the Government action taken by GMB members at British Gas where must introduce proper legislation, backed by real engineers made it clear that they were not striking for enforcement, before it is too late—before we see another themselves but for the young children they needed to big bully-boy employer such as British Gas lay off staff support. Fire and rehire tactics do not just leave workers and impose new contracts, dismissing the rest who worse off; they leave their families worse off too. refuse to be bullied. However, fire and rehire tactics are not just bad for The Minister must confirm, as I hope he will and as working people, who are told to work harder but at the we have called for, that the Government will bring same time paid less; they are bad for our economy too. forward such a measure as a matter of priority in the By being able to change contracts on a whim, fire and long-awaited and much-delayed employment Bill in next rehire tactics are allowing bad employers to thrive and month’s Queen’s Speech. If he does not give a proper get ahead, cutting wages even at a time when many of response today and resorts to a wishy-washy one—frankly, them are making bumper profits because of the lockdown. a trademark of this Government—the consequences for As a result, good employers that look after their staff, every worker who has been blackmailed and bullied, pay them good wages and offer favourable conditions every family forced to turn to food banks, and every are being squeezed out, unable to compete with the bad child forced into poverty, will land firmly at his employers. That is hardly the positive example of levelling Government’s doors. up or building back better, as the Prime Minister has Mrs Sheryll Murray (in the Chair): Minister, will you pledged time and again. That is why the Labour party, leave a couple of minutes at the end for the person in the trade unions and working people up and down the charge of the debate to conclude? country have been calling on the Government to step in and act, to deliver the legislation that will bring a final, definitive end to the use of fire and rehire tactics for 3.47 pm good, just as has been done in Ireland and Spain, as we The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, have heard. Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): It is a Instead of outlawing fire and rehire, all the Government pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray. have been able to offer are warm words and consultation—a I congratulate the hon. Member for Jarrow point that has been made by a number of hon. Members. (Kate Osborne) on securing the debate, her first here in Warm words, however, do not pay bills, keep roofs over Westminster Hall, on fire and rehire. We have heard a people’s head or put food on the table. As we saw lot of powerful and passionate speeches, but before I at British Gas, warm words do not keep people in start on mine, I note that many of my colleagues have employment. The consultation that the Government been glancing at the annunciator screens around us. have commissioned with ACAS still has not been published Important issues have been debated in the main Chamber. weeks after reporting back to base, with findings reportedly I have seen colleagues on the Government Benches still being considered. I say to the Minister that this is speaking about fire safety and veterans—a lot of issues. not difficult. The findings and recommendations of the Many colleagues have spoken about this subject and ACAS consultation are obvious for all: fire and rehire is will continue to do so. 85WH Fire and Rehire 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 86WH

[Paul Scully] Gavin Newlands: I hear yet more warm words, and I hear about the Government’s support for workers, the We heard from the Opposition spokesman, the hon. furlough scheme, and what have you. Let us concede the Member for Bradford East (Imran Hussain), about the furlough scheme. However, what does the Minister say Government giving warm words, about consultation and to workers who have taken redundancy when faced with about people being worse off. On the warm words, however, fire and rehire threats, or who have been forced out of a we agree on many things to do with the “bully-boy business, or to the British Gas engineers sacked without tactics”we have heard about today.That also demonstrates any redundancy payment? the difference when talking about businesses, because with changes to workers’ rights and anything to do with Paul Scully: I will come to fire and rehire. In individual employment, whether for workers or businesses, it is company disputes, in the first instance it should always important that we get it right. We have to consult and be ensured that the company and employers can have ensure that legislation is made with careful consideration conversations and dialogues with the unions, should and debate, and that it is made with people—companies there be a union supporting the workers. and workers—and not done to them. The debate has explored a lot of issues related to fire Clearly, the flexibility of our jobs market means that and rehire, where employers dismiss or threaten to the hon. Member for Bradford East was right to say dismiss employees, only to hire them again on less that people and their families are worse off if they get favourable terms and conditions. However, the UK reduced terms. They would also be worse off, however, already has a robust legal framework to ensure that if their jobs were lost as a result of a different type of employees are treated fairly. Employers are clearly free restructuring. Again, that is why we need to get the to offer the terms and conditions of employment that balance right. best suit their business needs, but they must always act Wehad some international comparisons.ManyEuropean fairly and not discriminate unlawfully, such as on grounds countries clearly have more rigid labour markets. Often, of race, sex or disability. Redundancy law requires that in places such as Germany and France, more onerous any redundancy process be fair and reasonable, with requirements must be met when considering individual appropriate equalities considerations. Those rules include or collective redundancy. In some countries, permission giving a notice period and consulting staff before a final must be sought even to go down that line. So our decision is reached. Wehave clear laws on unfair dismissal, flexible hiring practice is important to ensuring that our covering such things as the application of unfair selection economy is rounded but flexible. criteria or failure to consider the possibility of transfer Having said that, however, importantly, we are all to other work. constituency MPs and we have heard many examples However, it is not just a matter of what the law today. From correspondence I have received—like many requires; it is in businesses’own interests to have committed, Members present—we know that, for those affected, motivated staff who are properly engaged in decisions the threat of redundancy or dismissal is always distressing. about their future. As I have said, in the vast majority of We expect employers to treat their staff with respect cases businesses want to do the right thing by their and compassion. That is even more important now, employees, and I am determined to help them with that, when people feel particularly vulnerable or anxious to make sure that we find the best approach for employers about the future. I speak to businesses every day and and employees. However, we should tread carefully know that the vast majority of employers want to do when considering Government intervention in commercial the right thing by their employees. For most employers, contractual matters between employers and employees. the choice to let someone go is not something to be We must and do protect workers from unfair practices, taken lightly. It usually comes at a time of great financial especially when they put unnecessary stress on people uncertainty for the business. who fear for their livelihoods, but we must also allow I pay tribute to all the businesses and workers that businesses to take the sometimes difficult decisions that have kept the economy moving throughout an are necessary to preserve their commercial viability. extraordinarily difficult time.In the face of those challenges, Some Members have called this afternoon for the businesses have shown a remarkable ability to adapt Government to legislate for a ban on fire and rehire. and innovate. Through the pandemic, our priority as a The Government have always been clear that we do not Government has always been to protect jobs. Through accept the inappropriate use by some employers of fire the job retention scheme we have supported 11.4 million and rehire as a negotiation tactic. I have met Members unique jobs to date. As we build back better from and trade unions to discuss the issue, and in those coronavirus, we will continue to support workers and discussions it has been made plain to me what anxiety work with employers to protect and create jobs. In the and distress such tactics cause,particularly when individuals past year we have helped millions of people to continue feel that they have no real option to say no and negotiate to provide for their families as part of our plan for jobs, better terms. We have heard examples of that today. to protect, support and create employment. As we build However, it is right and proper to consider the evidence, back better we will work with employers to protect to avoid any course of action that would run the risk of existing jobs and create new ones. doing more harm than good. The Government are always on the side of working For example, it would be counterproductive if measures people, including those on the lowest wages. Earlier this that prevented businesses from rehiring staff on different month, about 2 million of the UK’s lowest-paid workers terms and conditions meant that a business could no benefited from an increase in the national living wage longer survive, so that its staff found themselves out of and the national minimum wage, including a 2.2% increase work entirely. That would be the worst possible outcome in the national living wage, to £8.91—the equivalent of for both businesses and the people they employ, so we more than £345 a year for someone working full time. need robust evidence to make robust policy decisions. 87WH Fire and Rehire 27 APRIL 2021 Fire and Rehire 88WH

That is why my Department asked ACAS to conduct an decisions they need to maintain their commercial viability evidence-gathering exercise to learn more about the use during all of this, and as I have said, most businesses are of fire and rehire. Some Members of the House have doing the right thing. I have been an employer myself continued to call upon my Department to publish this for the best part of 25 years before being elected, and I evidence, including during this debate. Let me clarify: know what it is like to be responsible for someone else’s we asked ACAS for its help in developing the evidence livelihood. It is deeply unfortunate, however, that the base on this complex and sensitive issue. We are carefully actions of some unscrupulous employers are tarring considering the different issues and viewpoints raised, others with the same brush. Even at a time when which is vital for good policy making, and we will set businesses face acute challenges, fire and rehire should out our steps in due course. only ever be used as an option of last resort. As I have As mentioned today, unfortunately, due to the impacts made clear repeatedly, it is completely unacceptable to of covid, some employers may be considering making use threats of fire and rehire simply as a negotiation redundancies. We urge employers to consider all options tactic. and alternatives before making redundancies, but we Once again, I thank all hon. Members, and especially recognise that it is not going to be possible to save every the hon. Member for Jarrow,for their personal contributions business and every job. Collective redundancy legislation to this debate. requires employers proposing to make 20 or more employees redundant from one establishment in a 90-day period to 3.58 pm consult employees or their representatives, and that Kate Osborne: I thank everybody for their contributions must include a consultation on ways to avoid redundancies, today to what was a really good debate, with some very reduce their number, or mitigate their impact. Within powerful speeches. Anger at the injustice of fire and the same timescales, the employer must notify the Secretary rehire has shone through every contribution, without a of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy of single word of support for this awful practice. I wanted the proposed collective redundancies. Failure to notify to touch on a few of the points that have been made, but is an offence. Employees and/or their representatives unfortunately, time does not now allow that. may make a claim to an employment tribunal if they consider the employers not compliant with the consultation I thank the Minister for his response, but I say to him for collective redundancies. If the tribunal agrees, it that the Government need to act now to end fire and may make a protective award of up to 90 days’remuneration rehire. This shameful practice is taking advantage of a per employee. If a protective award is made against a pandemic to strip workers of their hard-fought terms company in liquidation, the Insolvency Service can pay and conditions. He says that we need to tread carefully, the protective award, within certain limits. but the problem is that people are being trampled over, and I do not accept that we need more debate on this In spite of the unprecedented support made available issue, because there is no question of right or wrong by the Government, many people have had to make here. He says that the Government are always on the really difficult decisions about their livelihoods since side of working people, but I am afraid that is just more last March. This includes employers who have spent empty words, because that is not what I see. Where is years investing in and growing their businesses, and the evidence that that is the case? workers who have shown loyalty and dedication to a particular profession or service. This debate has highlighted The Government can no longer ignore the damage the challenges that everyone is having to face, and the done by fire and rehire. If, as they say, they feel it is enormous impact that losing a job or the threat of unacceptable and bully-boy tactics, then they need to losing a job has on individuals and their families. show this through actions, not words. Two e-petitions have obtained over 14,000 signatures so far, one of Gavin Newlands: I have heard all of that, and I have which has over 10,000 and, as such, requires a written heard the Minister’s justification for not publishing the response from the Government, which I understand is ACAS report thus far, but can he guarantee that at something else that is still waiting to be received. Our some point after the Queen’sSpeech—in the next Session— trade unions and their members have done a fantastic the Government will publish the report in full, and what job in protecting workers, and they continue to do so. the Government intend to do about it? However, I say to the Minister and his Government that we need them to do the right thing and the decent thing, Paul Scully: What I will say at the moment is that we and bring forward legislation next month. are fully considering that, and we will continue discussion Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). and debate on it, because it is important that that evidence base forms part of those policy-making criteria. 4 pm Employers need to make sure that they can take the Sitting suspended. 89WH 27 APRIL 2021 Immigration Detention: 90WH Victims of Trafficking Immigration Detention: why does he want to make this change, which will make Victims of Trafficking it more likely that victims of trafficking will be held in immigration detention? 4.5 pm The Minister will be aware that a Home Office report Mrs Sheryll Murray (in the Chair): I remind Members confirmed that, in 2019, of 1,949 individuals referred that there have been some changes to normal practice in into the national referral mechanism after being detained, order to support the new hybrid arrangements. As there 89% received a positive reasonable grounds decision are only two Members here, I will just remind them that and 98% were subsequently released from detention. Mr Speaker has stated that masks should be worn in However, the Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner Westminster Hall. noted in her letter to the Minister: “Having looked at the data on the AAR policy, between Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): I November 2017 and October 2018, the rates of rejection for beg to move, detention by Detention Gatekeepers due to the person being an AAR fluctuated between 3.8% and 36.2%.” That this House has considered the effect of immigration detention on potential victims of trafficking. She notes that that is a wide range, but it is substantially It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, lower than the 89% to 98% rates under existing rulings. Mrs Murray,and to welcome my hon. Friend the Minister, It seems to me that that is a significant difference, not who has been extremely helpful to me with my questions just a policy anomaly. Can the Minister confirm that he about immigration over many months. It is a pleasure expects more potential victims of trafficking to be to see him here. The core of the issues I wish to raise detained for immigration purposes as a result of the relates substantively to the Immigration (Guidance on policy change? What are his thoughts around that? Detention of Vulnerable Persons) Regulations 2021, I understand that the Minister held a consultation on which make amendments to the guidance on adults at the statutory instrument before laying it. Can he confirm risk in immigration detention. In brief, the changes whether that is correct, state which organisations he has remove the special rules governing the use of detention consulted with, and give a summary of their views and for potential victims of trafficking and modern-day opinions? Why did the Home Office not include the slavery where there is already a strong presumption Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner in its consultation against the use of detention. I note the prayer against prior to making these changes? The Minister will be as this negative statutory instrument in the form of early-day aware as I am that it is important to get all expert advice motion 1696, tabled on 24 March 2021, which has prior to laying legislation before the House. attracted 77 signatures. I also note that, subsequent to Let us spend a moment on concerns raised about the Mr Speaker granting this debate, a further debate has changes. Medical Justice makes two crucial points; first, been scheduled for tomorrow in the main Chamber, so that the the Minister will certainly be busy. Again, I am grateful “new regulations…downgrade protections afforded to potential to him for being here today. victims of trafficking held in immigration detention”, One of the reasons I called for the debate is that and secondly that they Yarl’s Wood, which has been a detention centre for “run entirely counter to the government’s stated aim to protect women, is in my constituency, and over the years I have victims of trafficking.” worked closely with a number of groups related to the detention of women in particular, including Yarl’s Wood Does the Minister accept that the statutory instrument Befrienders and Women for Refugee Women. I would will, in practice, downgrade protection for victims of like to thank Medical Justice in particular for its help in trafficking? He may be aware that this week the Royal putting together some points. I will fire a series of College of Psychiatrists released its report “Detention questions at the Minister, which I am sure he will not of people with mental disorders in immigration removal have time to respond to immediately—it is in the nature centres”, which includes the following paragraph—it is of these 30-minute debates—but, if he will commit to quite a long quotation, but worth listening to: writing to me with responses on those he does not have “It is the view of the Royal College of Psychiatrists that people a chance to address, I would be grateful. with mental disorders should only be subjected to immigration detention in very exceptional circumstances…There is substantial Let me start by quoting from the explanatory and consistent research evidence that detainees with pre-existing memorandum accompanying the statutory instrument, vulnerabilities (e.g. mental health issues or survivors of torture which says: and other forms of cruel or inhumane treatment, including sexual “This statutory instrument brings into effect amendments to violence and gender-based violence) are at particular risk of the guidance on Adults at Risk in Immigration Detention…The harm as a result of their detention. Detention centres are likely to purpose of the statutory instrument…is to bring people who are precipitate a significant deterioration of mental health in most potential victims of modern slavery and/or trafficking fully within cases, greatly increasing suffering and the risk of suicide.” the…AAR Statutory Guidance. This is intended so that detention Does the Minister agree, or does he not, with the Royal considerations for potential victims of modern slavery and trafficking College of Psychiatrists’ conclusions? Does he, or does will be made using criteria consistent with those that apply to he not, agree that the changes that the statutory instrument other categories of vulnerable people.” makes may go directly against its advice? The reason provided by the Home Office for the change Guideline 6, paragraph 1, of the UN’s recommended is that it will bring those with a positive reasonable principles and guidelines on human rights and human grounds decision through the national referral mechanism trafficking states that trafficked persons fully within the scope of the adults at risk in immigration detention statutory guidance. The Home Office describe “should not be held in immigration detention centres” it as a measure to amend a “policy anomaly” and the or other forms of custody. There is no a priori reason changes will come into effect on 25 May. That leads me for the UK Government to agree with everything that to my first and fundamental question to the Minister: the United Nations says on the matter, but does the 91WH Immigration Detention: 27 APRIL 2021 Immigration Detention: 92WH Victims of Trafficking Victims of Trafficking Minister agree that this change risks being seen as a I draw attention to the Independent Chief Inspector significant step back from the UK’sinternational reputation of Border and Immigration’s report “Annual Inspection of playing a leading role against modern-day slavery? of ‘Adults at Risk in Immigration Detention’ (2018-19)”. The direct effect of changing this policy anomaly on The first inspection report, which was published in victims of trafficking and modern-day slavery seems to April 2020, noted that me quite profound. The practical impact seems to be “there is a lot more that the Home Office can and should do to that after a person has already satisfied the Home make each component” Office that they were subject to trafficking or slavery, of the AAR policy “more efficient and more effective.” the Home Office now expects them essentially to re-live Further, the inspector said: that experience so that they can demonstrate the harm “I have set a deadline (31 March 2020) for the implementation they will suffer from further future incarceration or of the recommendations that are specific to Adults at Risk”. detention—this time by the Government. Why would Can the Minister confirm whether the specific the Government want to do that? recommendationsidentifiedforimplementationby31March Let us take a moment to see whether the adults at risk last year have been accepted and implemented? policy is working sufficiently well to warrant its application I understand the 2019-20 report is now in draft with to this particularly vulnerable group. There are substantial publication due in September. Can the Minister advise grounds to suggest that it is not proving suitable for the whether the ICIBI has concluded whether their concerns policy anomaly change; let me share some concerns have now been allayed? Or do those concerns remain, or with the Minister. have they risen? Even relying solely on the concerns Women for Refugee Women has commented that a raised in 2018-19 report, did they not give the Minister key reason for the continued detention of survivors of pause in making the changes? Can he, in his response, trafficking under the adults at risk policy is the lack of a share what guided his thinking? proactive vulnerability screening mechanism before the Finally, I want to touch on some comments in The decision to detain is made. Under AAR, a new detention Independent about the rationale so the Minister can gatekeeper was introduced clarify. The newspaper said: “which assesses vulnerability and provides challenge to decisions “Ministers are planning to make it more difficult for trafficking about who enters immigration detention”. survivors to be released from detention as part of plans to prevent serious criminals from taking advantage of modern slavery safeguards However, the gatekeeper looks only at information that by using them to prevent their removal from the country.” the Home Office already holds on record to assess whether a person is vulnerable. There is no proactive Essentially, this is a misuse of a provision. Is that the screening process to identify vulnerabilities that the case? If so, what consideration did the Home Office give Home Office may not be aware of before the decision to to improving the existing process rather than closing it detain is made. down? What consideration has the Home Office given to managing a definition of a foreign national offender Let me note some findings from Her Majesty’s that will likely include actions that victims of slavery or Inspectorate of Prisons on Yarl’s Wood, the detention trafficking were forced to undertake? Many survivors of centre in my constituency.Its reports have also highlighted modern slavery are forced to commit criminal acts, such how, while it was operating as the main detention centre as pickpocketing, drug cultivation or even fraud, as for women, Yarl’sWood consistently struggled to maintain part of their exploitation. In 2020, potential victims an appropriate proportion of female staff, both those in were most commonly referred to in the national referral direct contact with women and managers. Further,HMIP mechanism for cases related to purely criminal exploitation, reports also identified a lack of understanding and which accounted for 34% of all referrals. I would be knowledge among Yarl’s Wood staff about women’s grateful if the Minister could just clarify this point, specific experience of violence and abuse, including because it would be a shame if the references to foreign sexual exploitation and trafficking. I do not wish to cast national offenders were getting caught up with the any aspersions on the very capable staff at Yarl’s Wood issue, whereby many people who are subject to trafficking in my constituency. My point is that, with this change, are forced into crime as part of their victimisation. we are placing more reliance on individual case-based judgments and therefore on what might appear to be a May I just repeat how grateful I am for this opportunity rather more fragile decision process. to raise these points with the Minister today? There are issues with the adults at risk policy. I know that it was Let me note some more comments from the Independent only introduced in 2016, but I think that both the Anti-Slavery Commissioner, Dame Sara Thornton: Minister and I wish to see improvements to our immigration “Whilst I acknowledge the rationale for bringing all categories policies, to ensure that loopholes are not exploited by of vulnerability under the AAR policy, there are multiple factors those who do not deserve the right to exploit those that are specific to victims of modern slavery that are significant.” loopholes. Equally, however, I know that the Minister, Also, the Home Office, the Home Secretary and I are committed “under Article 13 of ECAT potential victims of modern slavery to a system that is compassionate and that has eyes on with a positive reasonable grounds decision are entitled to a that individual who might otherwise be lost in a very reflection and recovery period where they cannot be removed bureaucratic system. I am therefore very grateful for the from the UK. I am aware that in order to detain there must be ‘a opportunity to put these points to the Minister today. realistic prospect of removal within a reasonable timescale’. It is therefore important to highlight that in 2019, it took the Home Office Single Competent Authority an average of 452 days” 4.20 pm to make a conclusive decision. Does the Minister The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the acknowledge the tension in timescales between a realistic Home Department (Chris Philp): It is a great pleasure to prospect of removal and an average of 452 days to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray; I think make a decision? for the first time, but I am confident not for the last. 93WH Immigration Detention: 27 APRIL 2021 Immigration Detention: 94WH Victims of Trafficking Victims of Trafficking [Chris Philp] and mindful that we should do everything to protect genuine victims of modern slavery, many of whom will I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North East have suffered appalling trauma and mistreatment. It is Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) for raising the matter in in the spirit of achieving that balance that the changes this afternoon’s debate. As he said, we will have the we are discussing today and will discuss again tomorrow pleasure of discussing it twice in two days. He is an are being made. assiduous campaigner on these issues and I am very The change that my hon. Friend outlined so eloquently, pleased to have the opportunity to discuss them with enshrined in the statutory instrument laid on 25 February him today, and, I am sure, on future occasions as well. this year and coming into force, if passed, in a few As a starting point, it is important to understand that weeks’ time, to make the release decision in relation to the United Kingdom’s commitment to looking after people with a positive reasonable grounds decision if victims or even potential victims of modern slavery is they might be a victim of modern slavery is inside the resolute. We enacted the Modern Slavery Act 2015, ambit of the existing adults at risk policy. That is not to which has some very substantial protections for victims say that their potential vulnerability will be ignored, but of modern slavery.Welaunched a modern slavery strategy the issue will be considered in the round and a balancing back in 2014 and we are assiduous as a country in exercise will be performed, as it is with other forms of upholding our obligations under the ECAT treaty—the vulnerability in the existing scope of the adults at risk Council of Europe convention on action against trafficking policy to make sure that everything is being properly in human beings—to which my hon. Friend referred. accounted for in the round. Indeed, many more modern slavery claims are made Having done that exercise, release decisions might, and accepted in the UK than in comparable European and in many cases will, still be made. An adults at risk countries; I think that we had around 10,000 last year, policy, as my hon. Friend said, was introduced in 2016. which was many times higher than in countries such as It has had time to bed in and is being continuously France and Germany. I think our record on identifying improved upon, but it has a well-defined grading scale— and protecting victims of modern slavery is second level 1, level 2, level 3—and the more serious the evidence to none across Europe, which we can all be extremely of vulnerability or potential harm, some of which my proud of. hon. Friend laid out in his speech, the higher the However, we should also be clear that someone being balancing factors have to be in order not to release. recognised as a victim of modern slavery does not and Viewing the matter in the round and considering should not automatically result in their being given everything is an appropriate thing to do. It is a balancing immigration status in the UK, or in their being exempted exercise that we are trying to achieve. The caseworker from immigration proceedings. There are protections guidance that will be published in due course will address granted by the modern slavery provisions. My hon. the specific situation of potential victims of modern Friend mentioned the reflection and recovery period, slavery. My hon. Friend laid out some of the unique which is 45 days. Of course, if there is a recovery need circumstances associated with them, and the caseworker that can only be met by the person remaining, that is guidance will take into account the particular vulnerabilities obviously respected as well. However, it does not follow that my hon. Friend drew attention to in his speech. that every single potential victim of modern slavery I hope that gives some reassurance about the approach should be exempted from immigration proceedings or that will be taken. The detention decision making process indeed from detention. will of course include an assessment of the individual’s Therefore, it is very important that we have a proper recovery needs.That will ensure that detention is maintained way of weighing up the various considerations that where the balancing criteria are met, and also where come before decision makers: on the one hand, there those needs can be provided from within detention. If are questions of vulnerability, or potential vulnerability; those needs cannot be met from within detention, that and on the other hand, there is the need to operate a would obviously argue very strongly and persuasively, proper immigration system. That is an important balance probably decisively, in favour of a release decision being to strike. Both those things are important; we are not made. minimising the importance of either one of them. It is also worth saying by way of context—I know my It is worth observing that the reasonable grounds hon. Friend has a wider interest in detention; we have threshold for a modern slavery decision is, by design, discussed it on many occasions—that detention is used extremely low. At the moment, it is set out as “suspects sparingly. At any one time, 95% of people who might be but cannot prove”, which is an extremely low threshold. eligible for detention are in fact in the community. The We are looking to make adjustments to that, as set out numbers being detained are relatively small by historical in the policy statement a few weeks ago, consistent, of standards. If I take the figure from 31 December 2019, course, with our ECAT treaty obligations. However, before coronavirus, because coronavirus has caused the once the reasonable grounds decision is made, that does number to go down even further, there were 1,637 people not mean that the person involved is a victim of modern in immigration detention, which is a pretty small number slavery. It means that there are reasons to suspect, but when we measure that against the number of people without proof, that they might be a victim of modern who probably do not have the right to be in the country. slavery, which is extremely important to bear in mind. The 1,637 number approximately halved in the two-year There has been some evidence recently—I am talking period preceding. From 30 September 2017 to 31 December about the last 12 months in particular—that for some 2019, the number of people in immigration detention cohorts in particular, including some foreign national roughly halved. The vast majority of people—we have offenders, it appears that modern slavery claims are debated this previously—are in detention for relatively increasingly being used as a means of disrupting short periods of time. Some 74% are detained for 28 days immigration proceedings. We need to be mindful of that, or less, so detention is not being used on a widespread, 95WH Immigration Detention: 27 APRIL 2021 96WH Victims of Trafficking indiscriminate basis, but it is an essential component of Air Pollution: London running a proper immigration system. Where someone does not have the right to be here, or where they have 4.50 pm committed a serious criminal offence and they are a foreign national, it is right that we take steps to remove Mrs Sheryll Murray (in the Chair): I remind hon. them. Without having immigration detention available, Members that there have been some changes to normal it is extremely difficult to do that, so it is an important practice in order to support the new hybrid arrangements. thing to be able to do. Timings of debates have been amended to allow technical As I have set out, we accept that modern slavery arrangements to be made for the next debate. There will is a truly despicable crime. We take our responsibility be suspensions between debates. I remind Members to identify victims very seriously. We also take our participating physically and virtually that they must responsibilities in using immigration detention very seriously arrive for the start of a debate in Westminster Hall and as well. Our focus as we take forward these changes will are expected to remain for the entire debate. I must be to make sure that the right balance is struck and that remind Members participating virtually that they are potential victims with genuine vulnerabilities are protected. visible at all times, both to one another and to us in the We are determined not only to protect those vulnerable Boothroyd Room. If Members attending virtually have individuals, but to bring the perpetrators of modern any technical problems, they should email the Westminster slavery to justice. It is in that spirit that we have introduced Hall Clerks’ email address. the changes that will be debated in the main Chamber Members attending physically should clean their spaces tomorrow. before they use them and before they leave the room. I remind Members that Mr Speaker has stated that masks Richard Fuller: I have a very small point. Will the should be worn in Westminster Hall. Members attending Minister respond to specific questions that I asked and physically who are in the latter stages of the call list commit to reply in writing? should use the seats in the Public Gallery initially and move to the horseshoe when seats there become available. Chris Philp: Yes, I am happy to give that commitment. Members can speak from the horseshoe only where Question put and agreed to. there are microphones.

4.30 pm 4.51 pm Sitting suspended. Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): I beg to move, That this House has considered air pollution in London. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray. I am very grateful for the opportunity to lead this debate on the incredibly important topic of air pollution in London. No one can fail to be moved by the big, beautiful, beaming smile of Ella Adoo-Kissi-Debrah, whose life was so tragically taken at the age of just nine as a result of London’s poor air quality. I pay tribute to Ella’s mother Rosamund, who, in the face of such a personal tragedy, has campaigned relentlessly for the true cause of her daughter’s death to be recognised. The landmark verdict from the inquest recording the cause of death as air pollution has reverberated around the country and marks a silent public health crisis unfolding in the capital city and beyond. As a London resident and MP, but also as the mother of two young children, living close to Heathrow airport and half a mile from a busy dual carriageway on which several local schools and a college are located, I have a moral and personal duty to act. We must ensure that future generations do not die prematurely because of the air that they breathe. The coroner in Ella’s inquest stated last week that “there is no safe level for Particulate Matter” and called for a change in the law. And this is what I am doing today: I am asking the Minister to commit to introducing Ella’s law, which would introduce legally binding limits on air pollution in the UK, in line with World Health Organisation guidelines.This call is supported by the Royal College of Physicians, the British Lung Foundation, Asthma UK, Friends of the Earth and many, many more. The Conservative Government stated in 2019, when they published their clean air strategy, that “exposure to the pollution still present in our atmosphere is one” 97WH Air Pollution: London27 APRIL 2021 Air Pollution: London 98WH

[Munira Wilson] worst levels of air pollution in London. Shockingly, plans are not yet even in place to monitor particulate of pollution around the proposed tunnel. The Liberal “the UK’s biggest public health challenges, shortening lifespans Democrat candidate for Mayor of London, Luisa Porritt, and damaging quality of life for many people.” has stated that the Silvertown tunnel is the Mayor’s Yet robust action and commitment to tackle this silent “dirty little secret”. If he is serious about improving killer has not followed. London’s air quality, that proposal must be scrapped. This debate is focused on London, where a staggering Just 4% of London’s buses are electric, with only 99% of the population live in areas where particulate 400 all-electric buses in service in a fleet of 9,000. We matter exceeds WHO limits. Up to around 4,100 early fall well behind other cities internationally.With Transport deaths each year in London can be linked with air for London and the Department for Transport negotiating pollution. Central London is one of the most polluted a long-term settlement, I urge the Government to push places in the UK and is currently the main area failing for commitments to increase take-up of electric buses in to comply with the legally binding limits set by the EU, London. which the UK is committed to. Worryingly, research by At a local level, many councils have been seeking to the Environmental Defence Fund found air pollution to build on the increase in walking and cycling and the be on average 19% higher at inner-London primary reduction in car use during the pandemic, through schools than at those in outer London, exacerbating existing improved active travel infrastructure, such as additional health inequalities—and we have seen the devastating cycle lanes and school street schemes. Since the Liberal impact of those inequalities during the pandemic. Democrats were elected to run Richmond Council in 2018, there has been a particular focus on cracking Anyone can be affected by air pollution, increasing down on cars idling, especially near schools. The legislation the risk of developing a lung or cardiovascular condition on idling, however, is toothless and merely creates an and even stunting lung growth in children, but air offence not to comply with instructions from a traffic pollution can leave those with lung conditions, such as officer to stop idling—the idling itself is not an offence. asthma and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, Will the Minister look at how the law can be strengthened struggling to breathe and at risk of having potentially in this area? life-threatening attacks and flare-ups. Various studies suggest that it can increase the severity of covid-19 as I am also proud that Richmond Council has the well. About 500,000 people are estimated to live with highest number of electric vehicle charging points of COPD in London and about 120,000 live with asthma. any outer London borough. I am disappointed that Transport for London has stalled its programme to roll I am grateful to the House of Commons digital out more EV charging points. engagement team for seeking feedback from the public in recent days about the impact of air pollution on their For south-west and west London and neighbouring lives. I thank the more than 700 respondents to the counties, a major source of air pollution is Heathrow. survey. I have some of the quotes that came back from The airport has a significant impact on my constituency. London residents. Brendan said: “Air pollution has While the Department for Transport has considered hospitalised two of my nephews and I am now very aviation pollution only within a two-kilometre radius of concerned about its impact on my very young daughter. the airport, plenty of research suggests that ultra-fine Pollution along my street can feel choking when diesel particles sometimes travel far greater distances from vehicles are left idle there, and my own curtains are left airports, with a reach of 10 miles from airports elsewhere blackened from the air that comes in through the gaps around the world. Furthermore, the surface transport in my windows.” to the airport is a major contributor to air pollution in the area. Jenny said: “My son was born and grew up in Holloway, where his nursery was on a busy main road. He suffers Despite the heavily publicised announcement last from mild to moderate asthma, which sometimes causes week that aviation emissions will be counted towards the him to have to stop physical activities and laughing too UK’s sixth carbon budget, the Conservative Government much, due to getting short of breath and a tight chest, have made no moves to cancel their plan for a third which is sad to see in an 11-year-old.” runway at Heathrow airport or update their aviation national policy statement, which remains in favour of Karen said: “I live next to Heathrow airport, the Heathrow expansion. If the Prime Minister is serious most polluted area in the country. Most days, even about air pollution and climate change, it is time for him sunny ones, I find it hard to breathe as I have asthma.” to make good on his promise to scrap a third runway. That is why we need radical action, starting from the Although this debate has focused on London, I would top, with national Government setting much more stringent like to briefly add some national context about the size air-quality targets and resourcing regional and local of the problem. Air pollution contributes to diabetes, authorities to implement measures on the ground that dementia and heart disease, and can even cause problems will clean up our air. for children in the womb. Public Health England has At a London level, it would be churlish not to credit estimated that the cost of air pollution to the NHS will the Mayor of London for taking action on air quality be approximately £1.5 billion by 2025, and £5.1 billion during his time in office and improving levels of air by 2035. Research by Asthma UK and the British Lung pollution. The ultra low emission zone has cut nitrogen Foundation has found that over 8,500 schools and dioxide levels by 40%. However, it is fair to say that colleges are in places with levels of PM2.5 that are much more needs to be done, starting with scrapping above World Health Organisation guidelines, yet an plans for the Silvertown tunnel, which will only increase answer I received to a written question revealed that the number of vehicles on the road, driving up emissions. there were only three air quality monitoring sites in The approaches to the Blackwall tunnel have among the Birmingham, two in Manchester,and some 19 in London. 99WH Air Pollution: London27 APRIL 2021 Air Pollution: London 100WH

Given that these are our biggest and most polluted the main environmental threat to public health in the cities, I would welcome feedback from the Minister UK. Despite this, under Sadiq Khan’s mayoralty, London on whether she thinks this level of monitoring is adequate. has made progress on this issue. Between 2016 and The House of Commons digital engagement team 2019, there has been a 94% reduction in the number of also heard from residents in Newcastle-under-Lyme, Londoners living in areas exceeding the legal limit for who have also been very active on my Twitter feed in nitrogen dioxide, and a 97% reduction in the number of recent days, highlighting the impact of pollutants from state primary and secondary schools in areas exceeding Walleys Quarry, which have caused some to be violently the legal limit. This, in part, has been achieved by the sick and triggered asthma attacks two to three times a rolling out of the ultra low emission zone, along with day for some children. Others in the north-east highlighted funding to clean up London’s taxi fleet and almost the impact of wood-burning stoves, and residents in the £53 million of grants to take older, more polluting south-east raised the impact of Southampton airport. vehicles off the roads, in hand with schemes to make It is clear that we need national-level action on what is a walking and cycling safer and easier. national problem, and is felt acutely in London. Even In addition, the school streets initiative, implemented this year,in a case that started before Brexit, the European to varying degrees across London since 2018, has also Court of Justice found the Conservative Government to been a great success. Under the scheme, local authorities have systematically and persistently breached air pollution can put a temporary restriction on roads outside schools limits. As we are no longer bound by the EU’s air to turn them into a pedestrian and cycle zone during quality rules, we are likely to see even less accountability school drop-off and pick-up times. In one year alone, for their refusal to tackle this problem. Lewisham Council created 26 school streets, with studies The Environment Bill provides the ideal opportunity showing that they can reduce air pollution by up to for the Government to act and to introduce Ella’s law, 23%. Meanwhile, Bromley has managed to adopt only yet the Conservatives have been so unambitious in six streets as of September 2020. With no traffic camera merely stating that the Government will set themselves enforcement, the scheme can easily be breached without a PM2.5 target by 2022. They have said absolutely punishment for offenders. There is inconsistency across nothing about the level of ambition that this target will the capital, often depending on the make-up and inclination achieve, or whether it will be stronger than our previous of the local authority. target or provide adequate public health protection. We must remember that children are particularly The Bill has been delayed yet again, and even before this vulnerable to breathing polluted air and that those who current delay, some 354 Conservative MPs voted against grow up in polluted areas are four times more likely to an amendment to introduce limits in line with WHO have reduced lung function in adulthood. With this in guidelines. As well as the potential health gains, there mind, the school streets scheme should be rolled out are economic gains to be had. The Confederation of across all of the capital, and boroughs should receive British Industry has estimated that a £1.6 billion annual the necessary dedicated funding from central Government economic benefit to the UK could be realised by meeting to ensure that it can be properly implemented and enforced. WHO guidelines. While a lot of progress has been made in London Targets and limits are not enough. They need to be since 2016, 99% of Londoners still live in areas exceeding accompanied by action and money to support cycling, the World Health Organisation recommended guidelines walking, and public transport use, as well as greener for fine particulate matter, otherwise known as PM2.5. vehicles. That is why, as part of an ambitious green These are pollutants that are 30 times smaller than the economic recovery plan, the Liberal Democrats have average human hair and can settle in our airways and get proposed an £20 billion community clean air fund to into the bloodstream. There is no safe level for this boost new walking and cycling routes, new light rail and particulate matter and breathing it is one of the largest tram projects, expansion of bus routes, conversion of risk factors for an early death, with around 4 million people bus fleets to hydrogen, council-led clean air zones for a year across the globe dying early from breathing it. In congested towns and cities, and extra electric vehicle London, the figure is nearly 4,000 early deaths a year. charging points. After a year, the coronavirus pandemic As the hon. Lady noted, one of these deaths was the has demonstrated that public health should always be a heart-breaking case of Ella Adoo-Kissi-Debrah. She priority for the Government, yet the Prime Minister lived near the south circular road in Lewisham, just continues to look past the fact that poor air quality is outside my constituency, and was exposed to excessive contributing to up to 40,000 premature deaths in the levels of PM2.5 and nitrogen dioxide. In 2013, Ella died UK every year. We owe it to Ella and her family to take aged just nine, which is tragic. Tireless campaigning by action now. her family led to the landmark ruling last December by Mrs Sheryll Murray (in the Chair): I have worked out Southwark Coroners Court that air pollution made a that if Back-Bench speeches are between five and six “material contribution” to Ella’s death. This was the minutes, everybody should get in. first time that toxic air had been given as a cause of death in the UK. The coroner said in his ruling that Ella 5.3 pm had been exposed to pollution principally from traffic emissions in excess of the World Health Organisation Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab) [V]: It guidelines. is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray. I thank the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) In his prevention of future deaths report, published for having secured this incredibly important debate. last Wednesday, the coroner said: “The evidence at the inquest was that there is no safe level for Prior to covid-19, polluted air was contributing to particulate matter and that the WHO guidelines should be seen as over 40,000 premature deaths in the UK every year. minimum requirements. Legally binding targets based on WHO That is a truly shocking statistic, and the British Lung guidelines would reduce the number of deaths from air pollution Foundation has previously stated that air pollution is in the UK.” 101WH Air Pollution: London27 APRIL 2021 Air Pollution: London 102WH

[Ellie Reeves] particulate measures for which there are really no safe limits—build up from traffic, the Southall gasworks We have already mentioned that in 2019 air pollution redevelopment by Berkeley Group, the tarmac factory contributed to over 4,000 premature deaths. If we are to in the next constituency, smaller building sites and tackle this awful statistic, the Government must follow other businesses. While each of those factors may itself the recommendations set out by the coroner and set legally be within a safe limit, they combine to create a totally enforceable targets to bring PM2.5 below the harmful unsafe state. levels set by the WHO. We cannot wait any longer. Planning, therefore, has to cross borough boundaries In October last year, I called on the Government put and consider the other industries and activities in an this in the Environment Bill. That was refused. At area before permitting building and redevelopment. A Committee stage, the Opposition also voted to amend modelling system that took all the different pollutants the Bill to include this, but again the Government into account would still be unfit for purpose if it did not refused. Without proper targets enacted now, how can liaise across boundaries. That approach would mean we expect to meaningfully reduce this threat? What will delaying some redevelopments when one was already it take for the Government to finally listen and include going on in the same area. More importantly, it would these measures? mean that some would never go ahead because the total Air pollution is a silent crisis that has gone on for far load in the area was already too high. Environmental too long, but it is currently being left to local authorities justice cannot be secured by the millions in need of it already on tight budgets to sort it out. Local government until the planning process puts the real lived experience cannot tackle this on its own. This is a national problem of people at the heart of the system. that requires the Government to lead on it and provide the necessary support. I hope that today’s debate will 5.14 pm highlight the seriousness and urgency of the issue and push the Government to make the concerted effort that Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD) [V]: It is a pleasure is needed truly to tackle this public health emergency. to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray, and to attend this incredibly important debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for 5.9 pm Twickenham (Munira Wilson) on calling it. Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab) [V]: The problem of poor quality air is a source of major Thank you, Mrs Murray, for giving me the opportunity concern to the constituents of Richmond Park. The air to contribute to this important debate. I congratulate pollution in the London Borough of Richmond upon the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) on Thames exceeds the legal limits for nitrogen dioxide and securing it, and thank her for doing so. PM10 levels. We know that the overwhelming contributor I want to speak about point source pollution and the to poor air quality in Richmond is motor vehicles, and need for comprehensive planning lawthat crosses boroughs that we see the worst examples of exceedances along to protect lives. Redeveloping sites, building new affordable our major roads. In the Royal Borough of Kingston upon homes and giving people places to live are good. We Thames, more than 4,000 people live in areas where need more housing, but it is not always simple to make levels of nitrogen dioxide exceed legal levels. those sites habitable. We need new laws to protect the In Richmond Park, we are all immensely fortunate to people who are already there, which may mean delaying live in close proximity to the park and enjoy all the or not redeveloping some sites, but it is for the good of benefits of the extensive green space that it offers. everyone. However, the downside is the huge constraints it imposes In air quality, there is a concept of total load. In on traffic movements, especially on the western and London, that is already high The background or baseline northern sides, where traffic is confined to a limited level of air pollution that we suffer daily makes us more number of roads between the park and the river, and susceptible to local increases. In areas such as my further constrained by the railway line and a large constituency, polluting activities have been grandfathered number of level crossings. The almost relentless congestion in, and many of my constituents have not seen the air that ensues creates poor quality air for everybody. I am quality improvements that so many others have enjoyed. committed to supporting any measure that can address it. That is just one face of the systematic racism that black, I am really pleased that both local authorities, led by Asian and minority ethnic people encounter; their health Liberal Democrats, are taking positive action on combating is so often sacrificed for the benefit, economic or otherwise, poor air quality. The main priority is to encourage of others. Environmental justice means not letting that people to reduce the number of car journeys they make happen and not tolerating pockets of more polluted air by making alternatives safe and accessible. To that end, because it is hoped that people in those diverse areas both councils have made significant investments in walking might complain less. Getting away with it is not justice. and cycling routes to make active travel a more attractive It is racism. option for residents across Richmond Park. We already Many sites that companies such as Berkeley Group have fantastic routes across the park and by the river, are so keen to redevelop are deeply contaminated with and work is ongoing to make road cycling safer, such as poisonous chemicals,so that even when they are redeveloped through introducing 20 mph speed limits. carefully, and even when there is proper monitoring, the We need to see continued investment by the Mayor of total load is driven higher. While on the site itself limits London into bus routes and for bus travel to be affordable might not be exceeded, people living around it will be and accessible. That is why I opposed the Department exposed to dangerous levels of pollution and their lives for Transport’s attempts to force children and young will be put at risk. That happens today in my constituency people to pay for travel on public transport, which and many others. PM10, mentioned earlier, and PM2.5— would have resulted in more young people being driven 103WH Air Pollution: London27 APRIL 2021 Air Pollution: London 104WH around by their parents. I encourage Transport for frequently ranked among the worst-polluted streets in London to increase and extend bus routes, especially in the UK. I am saddened to know that I walked my the Barnes area, which has been so badly affected by the children to the local primary school in Wandsworth closure of Hammersmith bridge. The closure of the every day for 15 years without realising the damage that bridge is the main contributor to congestion in East I was doing to their lungs. King’s College London Sheen and Barnes, greatly contributing to poor air research shows that children’s lungs are stunted by up quality in those neighbourhoods,and I take the opportunity to the size of an apple by the age of 10, which cannot again to call on the Government to come up with a be repaired; it is permanent damage. In London, funding solution for the repairs. 9,400 premature deaths a year are attributed to poor air The Liberal Democrats’ excellent mayoral candidate quality. This is a health crisis. Road vehicles account for Luisa Porritt has made clean air in London a cornerstone half of this pollution, but cooking and heating with of her campaign, calling for new road pricing schemes domestic gas accounts for 14%. It is a social justice issue and for rewilding our roofs and public spaces. I am too, with many of the poorest residents living on the pleased to say that we are already enacting similar highly toxic, most-affected roads but not having cars schemes in Richmond and Kingston, introducing greater themselves. biodiversity into our verges and green spaces. There is What are some of the solutions? First, we need more no doubt that close proximity to Heathrow also plays measurement of pollution. What gets counted counts. its part in poor air quality in west London. The Government We need more monitors to measure pollution levels in must make a clear statement that further expansion of far more places. The whole Borough of Wandsworth has Heathrow cannot be permitted to go ahead both because only seven continuous monitoring stations. We need far of the impact of increased poor air quality on the more. Secondly, we need to stop the plans for Heathrow’s communities that surround the airport and because third runway. We cannot look the health crisis in the expansion cannot be compatible with the Government’s face and continue the plans for that third runway, which net zero targets. will result in millions of tonnes of carbon dumped It was highlighted to me when I spoke to officers at across London. the local councils about the challenges of combating air Thirdly, do not give up on the green homes grant. I pollution locally that what local authorities really need hope we will hear from the Minister about the replacement is the power to create clean air zones that would put for that grant, which was scrapped only a few weeks greater restrictions on activities such as using wood-burning ago. There needs to be an easy incentive for homeowners stoves or driving polluting vehicles. What is needed is a to insulate and switch to green energy, developed in new clean air Act. Think about how transformational conjunction with mortgage providers, because there the Clean Air Act 1956 was and the difference it made needs to be financing for this; with the building industry, to London’sair. Within a few years, the type of pea-souper so that builders can deliver it; and with education smog that killed as many as 4,000 people in its worst providers, so that they can train people to perform incarnation, in 1952, was virtually eliminated. There is green jobs. We need that not only for social housing; I no doubt that modern pollutants and those smogs of would like to hear from the Minister how the green 70 years ago represent an equivalent risk to human homes grant will be replicated for private homeowners health, as the case of Ella Adoo-Kissi-Debrah so tragically and commercial buildings. illustrates. We need to take the same approach today, prioritise clean air and take whatever measures are Fourthly, we need to decrease vehicles on our roads necessary to ensure that we can all breathe freely. and increase cycling, with more safe storage—we need more cycle hangars. Wandsworth Council installed only 21 new bike hangars last year, out of a total of 60 across 5.19 pm the whole borough. It is just not enough. We also need Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure to safe cycle routes. During his first term in office, the serve under your chairship, Mrs Murray. I congratulate Mayor has overseen record-breaking growth in London’s the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) on cycle network, which has been fantastic to see and to securing this hugely important debate. It is a pleasure to join in on myself and with my children. He has delivered follow my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member 260 km of high-quality, safer cycle routes. We need for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney). We share many of to do more, but we are seeing the results, with the the same concerns, having a similar type of air quality number of people cycling increasing dramatically in the in our areas. past year. Air pollution is also one of the biggest health challenges Fifthly, we need more school streets. They really for my constituents in Putney,Roehampton and Southfields. work in encouraging parents to stop driving, or to It is the issue raised most frequently with me on the drive to a different area, increasing safety on our doorstep. Just last week, a resident showed me her stairs: roads for our children. I congratulate Albemarle, Our she has painted them white, but she showed me how Lady of Victories and Granard primary schools in my black they get, constantly, because of the air pollution constituency on their successful school streets, where coming through her door. If we could see that air everyone takes part. pollution, I think we would take this far more seriously. Sixthly, green buses are another excellent example of It is the silent killer. delivering on policy to cut pollution. The low-emission One of the first things I did after being elected was to bus zone, which goes along Putney High Street, for establish the Putney Environment Commission, bringing instance, introduced by the London Mayor and the together local residents and stakeholders to develop London Assembly in 2017 has reduced the nitrogen solutions to poor air quality, which is one of the main oxide pollution on the High Street by 87%—a dramatic issues raised by all the Members. Putney High Street is reduction. We need more of those green buses. 105WH Air Pollution: London27 APRIL 2021 Air Pollution: London 106WH

[Fleur Anderson] that all streets matter.My borough has loads of them—they appear seemingly every day. This weekend there was a Seventhly, the extended journeys caused by the march against them; the police say that there were 2,500 closure of Hammersmith bridge have increased pollution people there, and others have estimates either side of dramatically across Putney. I hope to hear from the that. That just shows the danger of having no pre- Minister about when the Government will agree funding implementation consultation on very dramatic changes for its repair. to people’s lives. In our borough, every street is residential. The Mayor has committed to 80% of all journeys by Cutting off direct access to every side street and to the 2041 being walked, cycled or made via public transport, ladder-type roads that join them means that all the while also putting in place a zero-emission bus fleet by cumulative traffic goes on to main roads. People there 2037. He has also committed to making London a zero- already suffered with unacceptably high air pollution; carbon city by 2030—faster than any comparable city. now they are living in permanent traffic jams. Thanks to this bold work, toxic air in central London Covid has highlighted health inequality, and we can has reduced by 44%, and 94% fewer Londoners are living see air quality as a social justice issue as well. Opening in areas that exceed the legal limit for nitrogen dioxide. windows in extreme heat should not be harmful to our With full support, these levels can come down, so we health, as we have seen in the last year—especially when need to see more work from the Government. The the public health advice is to ventilate. There needs to Environment Bill, for example, should include a legally be consistency in the consultation. My borough is still binding commitment to meet World Health Organisation unclear about how it will be evaluated whether it works. guideline levels for fine particulate matter pollution by It is also unclear whether people who live in a zone can 2030 at the very latest. I have spoken to the Minister go the most direct way to their own property by car: in about that, having been on the Bill Committee with her, the Hounslow bit of Chiswick they can, but they are so she knows that I am calling for it. It is not too late, also popular in Ealing, where the opposite applies. but the Bill has been massively delayed. When will it be Seventhly, we need free public transport. My late passed? When it is, let us see that air pollution target in parents were a two-car household; it was freedom it, and let us see the difference that it can make. passes that did away with that. Eighthly, we need more I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to high-speed rail; I have to say that I have issues with the say. I hope that she can assure colleagues that London HS2 company itself, but let us not get into that—it is a will get the resources that it needs to continue to tackle debate for another day. Ninthly, we need more taxation the deadly scourge of air pollution and build on the on big businesses that are heavy road users and use air progress that has been made in the past four years. freight. I am thinking of companies such as Amazon, which pay less tax than you and I do as it is, Mrs Murray. Tenthly, as Bob Dylan did, let’s go electric and encourage 5.25 pm people to do the same with home heating, cooking, cars Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): Air and all those things. pollution recalls images of 1950s smog, or even of far Good things are happening; I do not want to be too eastern cities where people were into wearing masks long negative. We have seen e-scooter trials—I think they are before we were, but this silent killer is still very much being rolled out all over the capital—in the hon. Member with us, accounting for some 9,500 deaths per annum in for Twickenham’s borough and in mine. I feel like the capital alone. Thanks to the tireless campaign of the calling the hon. Lady a friend even though we are in family of the late Ella Kissi-Debrah, air pollution has different parties, along with everyone else who has been attributed for the first time ever on a death certificate. spoken in the debate—they are all friends—and it is How do we reverse the UK’s long-standing, illegally funny how there is no one from the Conservative side in high air pollution? First, we should stop Heathrow the debate, apart from the Minister, who is obliged to be expansion. It is incompatible with the UK’s net zero here. Other good things are happening. Where London targets. Why add to what is already Europe’s biggest leads, everyone else follows. I know they are doing city-centre charging in Bath, Birmingham, Newcastle CO2 emitter, which is doing enormous damage to my constituency and to that of my near neighbour the hon. and Oxford, in loads of places. Again, London has set Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) through air the template there. and noise pollution? We know that in the new normal We have seen over this past year that people are we will do things differently, and Zoom works for prepared to make behavioural change in the face of a business meetings, so why not save those air flights for crisis, but we need to be proportionate and realistic with sparingly used leisure travel? The expansion of Charles such changes. Another big figure from the last year is de Gaulle airport in France has been stopped; we should George Floyd. Let us not forget that his last words do the same. were, “I can’t breathe,” which also alludes to air quality Secondly, we should stop new road building. It induces issues. Let us not let his killing and Ella’s death have been demand. Thirdly, we should stop lying to the public— in vain. It has been a pleasure to serve under your remember the VW emissions scandal, and what the people chairmanship, Mrs Murray. In London, the greatest city who bought diesel cars were told, among other examples. on earth, clean air should be a right not a privilege. Fourthly, the cycle to work scheme needs an overhaul to include larger firms and to be a genuine incentive, not 5.31 pm just a faff. Children should be included, too. Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): It is pleasure Fifthly, we need more proper, dedicated, segregated, to serve under you today, Mrs Murray. It is also very permanent cycle lanes, not the pop-up things that come good to see the Minister for the third time today as we and go and do not join up to anything else. Sixthly, we discuss issues of real importance to our planet and the should re-examine low-traffic neighbourhoods, recognising environment. I start by paying tribute to the hon. Member 107WH Air Pollution: London27 APRIL 2021 Air Pollution: London 108WH for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) for securing this clean air Act would establish a legal right to breathe important and timely debate. Indeed, I thank all those clean air by ensuring the law on air quality was at least who contributed and provided such thought-provoking as strict as the WHO guidelines, with tough new duties contributions to today’s excellent debate. on Ministers to enforce them and grant new powers to Air quality is one of the most important policy areas local authorities to take urgent action on air quality— in the Minister’s inbox and one of the most important powers that councils across London need, and need issues facing all our constituents the nation over. The now. facts are there for us all to see and they show just how It is not just me expressing concern at the Government’s damaging toxic air is to our communities and its inaction as that concern is felt by members of the disproportionate impact on the health and wellbeing of Minister’s party. I welcome the recent report produced our people. Covid-19 has highlighted these inequalities by the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, and has again disproportionately impacted those living which is chaired by the hon. Member for Tiverton and in areas with the worst air pollution. I have said it Honiton (Neil Parish). The Committee said that the before and I will say it again: the Government are weak Government need to increase their urgency and ambition on tackling toxic air and weak on the causes of toxic air. on objectives for air quality, and the Chairman said: Air pollution is bad for everyone, but for the 12 million “The problem will only get worse if the Government ignores people in the UK who live with a lung condition such as the extent and urgency of this health crisis. Its disappointing asthma or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, it response ignores the most important recommendations set out in poses a real and immediate threat to health. A spike in our report, but we hope that the Environment Bill will still be amended to set more stringent targets for tackling pollutants.” air pollution levels can lead to symptoms getting worse, flare-ups and even the risk of hospitalisation. We now I could not agree more, and I encourage the Minister to know from the coroner last week that it leads to death, join the Chair of the Select Committee in getting behind too. There is robust evidence of a clear link between the Labour’s demand to write the WHO guidelines into law. high levels of air pollution and increased numbers of All colleagues will know of the devastating way in which patients with breathing problems presenting at hospitals toxic air played a part in the death of Ella Kissi-Debrah and GP surgeries. in 2013. Once again, we send our thoughts and prayers As I said, air pollution can worsen existing health to her family, particularly her mum, Rosamund, and all inequalities and people living in the poorest areas are those close to her. I thank my hon. Friend the Member often the most exposed, reinforcing unequal health for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq) for her animated outcomes for deprived communities. It can also contribute speech highlighting the plight of Ella. to health inequalities later in life. Children living in In December 2020, the coroner ruled that Ella had highly polluted areas are four times more likely to have died as a direct result of air pollution. Indeed, he said reduced lung function in adulthood and my hon. Friends that he believed air pollution made a material contribution the hon. Members for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma) to Ella’s death. We can do something about this if we and for Putney (Fleur Anderson) have highlighted this want to, so may I invite the Minister to work with me eloquently today. and Labour colleagues and with Members across the If you do not mind people marking their own homework, House to make the Environment Bill fit for purpose by you will be satisfied with the UK currently meeting the writing the WHO guidelines into law? I look forward to working with the hon. Member for Twickenham and legal limit for PM2.5. However, this is only because our legal limit is more lenient than a limit recommended by others across the House to deliver Labour’s clean air the international health community. The UK legal limit Act, and the Minister is more than welcome to join us. The future of our planet and the lives of Londoners for PM2.5 is more than twice as high as the World Health Organisation recommendation. Scientists have depend on it. not been able to identify a level of PM2.5 that is harmless to breathe, so we need the strongest possible action, 5.36 pm much of which was reflected in our amendments to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment Bill—amendments that were voted down. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow): It It will be no surprise to you, Mrs Murray, or to the is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mrs Murray. Minister that Labour takes air quality matters seriously. I thank all hon. Members for taking part in the debate and We can see that in the leadership shown by the Mayor of thank the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) London Sadiq Khan, who has worked so hard to deliver for securing it. Like her, I have a great interest in the real results since he was elected in 2016. I thank the issue, as do all of us who have spoken today. We know hon. Member for Twickenham for giving him that credit. that air pollution is the single greatest environmental Indeed, air pollution in London has plunged since he risk to human health. Although air pollution has reduced became mayor in 2016, with a 94% reduction in the since 2010—there is no doubt about that—there is a lot number of people living in areas with illegal levels of more to do. That is why we have a clear ambition and nitrogen dioxide. The number of schools in such areas policy agenda to improve air quality, backed up with has fallen by 97% from 455 in 2016 to 14 in 2019. I significant investment. thank my hon. Friends the Members for Lewisham West The hon. Lady made many points about how to and Penge (Ellie Reeves) and for Putney for highlighting tackle air pollution and the issue of air quality, but it that fact. seemed quite clear that she is perhaps not aware of how Last month, the Labour party held a clean air summit— much is going on and how much the Government are the first of its kind to be hosted by a major party—and putting in place, backed by funding. We are taking this the shadow Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member matter extremely seriously, which I hope to make clear for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard), in the debate. Of course, we never accept that there is and I set out our demands for a clean air Act. Labour’s not more to do. On that issue, many of the measures 109WH Air Pollution: London27 APRIL 2021 Air Pollution: London 110WH

[Rebecca Pow] —just as with the Government—means that he has to put the necessary measures in place to bring London being introduced in the hon. Lady’s constituency come into compliance with the legal limits for air quality as from funds that the Government have set up and allocated, soon as possible. That is why, obviously, he is introducing particularly to local authorities. We should recognise that whole raft of measures. For a number of schemes, that. we will provide support for the cost of upgrading to I want to refer early in my speech to the case of nitrogen oxides or NOx-compliant vehicles. Ella Kissi-Debrah. We have all referred to it and we are The hon. Member for Twickenham touched on all aware that the prevention of future deaths report monitoring. I think she asked why there had not been was published last week. We will be considering it more of an increase in better monitoring. Indeed, there extremely carefully, looking at the recommendations is a great deal of monitoring. We are working with our and responding in due course. As ever, my thoughts and expert air quality group on how to evolve monitoring, all our thoughts are with the family. We referred to that to keep looking at it so that we meet the needs that will this morning in our debate. align with our new targets, which we are setting in the I have met with Ella’s mum and really value her views Environment Bill. In oral evidence, Professor Alastair and comments, and ideas that we can work on together. Lewis, a great expert on this, stated that it is really To be honest, the inquest was a horribly stark reminder important that we give due consideration to ensure that of the impact that air quality can have on our families. the network is fit for purpose, alongside setting the new It brought the issue right to our back door. I have a son targets—the monitoring must make sure that we are who had chronic asthma as a child, and eczema—they held to account on our new targets. are all related—so it is something I am aware of. I will I want to touch on the clean air strategy,the Environment cover the target setting a bit later, but I want to stress Bill and some of the wider air quality issues at the that we will put health centre stage and there will be a national level, which are also relevant to London. We strong focus on people’sexposure to pollution, in particular published our clean air strategy, which the World Health the more vulnerable. That matter was referenced especially Organisation welcomed as an example for the rest of by the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma). the world to follow. People keep knocking it, but the World Health Organisation has itself held the strategy I was interested in the responses to the digital engagement up and said, “This is a great document.” The strategy survey as well, and I have met many of the health aims to cut air pollution and to save lives. It focuses on charities to which the hon. Member for Twickenham emissions beyond road transport, setting out the referred—the British Lung Foundation, the British Heart comprehensive action required by all parts of Government Foundation and Asthma UK. We are working with all and society to reduce air pollution and the impacts on of them to ensure we get things right. public health. I will now turn to London, because the debate is We have made progress in reducing pollution from about London. I am aware of the air quality issue not several sources, such as, and more particularly, reducing only in our capital city, but in other cities and towns industrial pollution. We have a clear pipeline of action across the country. We can all agree that London is a to continue reducing emissions to improve air quality large and vibrant city that faces its own unique challenges for all, including by controlling emissions from domestic in tackling air pollution. However, our programme of burning, establishing new air quality targets and tackling action will improve air quality here in London, as it will emissions of ammonia, which come from agriculture. elsewhere. I want to touch on domestic burning, because it is a It is important to highlight that the Mayor of London major source of pollution, which includes the fine is responsible for air quality in the capital. He has particulate matter that is identified as the most harmful received funding from central Government to implement pollutant to human health. New legislation restricting measures to improve air quality as part of the 2015 the sale of the most polluting fuels used in domestic £5 billion transport funding settlement. In addition, burning comes into force on 1 May 2021—very soon. It London has received further funding for specific projects will restrict the sale of traditional house coal and small totalling almost £102 million, including more than volumes of wet wood and high-sulphur manufactured £10 million in 2019 to clean up London’s buses, and solid fuels. This was a key commitment in the clean air £530 million has been available for plug-in grants up to strategy and it will also make a difference in places such 2023, as well as favourable benefit-in-kind tax rates for as London, where so many people now have log-burners. zero emissions. Our landmark Environment Bill delivers other key The hon. Member for Twickenham raised the issue of aspects of the strategy. Of course it is progressing clean buses. I think she will agree that an awful lot is through Parliament and it will be back soon; we expect being done about clean buses and that there is much it to receive Royal Assent in the autumn. Let us just funding. She also mentioned the issue of engine idling, look at the targets first. The Bill introduces a duty on which we discussed a lot when I was a Back Bencher, Government to set a legally binding target for fine but local authorities have powers to tackle engine idling particulate matter, demonstrating our commitment to and should use them. The hon. Lady and other Members take action on this pollutant, and it also includes a duty might be interested to hear that we announced two to set at least one additional long-term target for air electric bus terminals back in January,which were Coventry quality, which shows further commitment. and Oxford, so we will all be looking at how they work The long-term target will work alongside the and whether we can learn lessons from them. concentration target to reduce the public’s exposure to The expanded ultra low emission zone in London is PM2.5 across all parts of the country, including London— being introduced by the Mayor of London in line with that is how many people in a given area are subject to a his responsibility to tackle air pollution. His responsibility particular amount of PM. I think it will be a really 111WH Air Pollution: London27 APRIL 2021 Air Pollution: London 112WH important target for tackling more specific areas. The I will close now and sum things up by thanking dual target is supported by experts and we will ensure everyone for raising these issues. I think we all agree that action is taken, using it to help the public health that health is absolutely crucial and that we have to issues. Those issues have all been mentioned by hon. tackle this air pollution issue, but I hope that I have set Members who contributed today, for which I thank out clearly that we have the measures in place to do them. The hon. Member for Lewisham West and Penge that. (Ellie Reeves), the hon. Member for Twickenham, of course, and the shadow Minister all touched on this 5.48 pm issue of the targets. Munira Wilson: I thank all the hon. Members who Dr Huq: Will the Minister give way, very briefly? participated so thoughtfully in this debate. I think that Rebecca Pow: I only have a few minutes left, so I there was unanimity in the Chamber about the need for really want to press on, because I also want to mention urgent action, and the Minister has been given a very other things alongside the targets in the Bill. There is strong message for her Department for Transport colleagues some significant change for local authorities. The Bill from several Members here about Heathrow expansion, will ensure that they have more effective powers and a about the step change that we need on public transport— clear framework for tackling air pollution in their areas. I appreciate she said that measures are being taken, That includes updating the current smoke control area but we need to go much further—and indeed about framework, to make it easier for local authorities to Hammersmith bridge, the message on which came from enforce by making smoke emissions in their areas subject both my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park to a civil regime rather than a criminal regime. They will (Sarah Olney) and the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur be able to police much more carefully what is going on Anderson). I thank the hon. Member for Putney for with fuel burning. raising the important issue of domestic fuel and heating, We are also introducing the concept of air quality and for expressing the disappointment about the scrapping partners, who will be required to work with local authorities of the green homes grant. to develop collaborative action plans to reduce pollution However, there is also unanimity—certainly on the levels where they are above required standards. We have Liberal Democrat and Labour Benches—for a clean air already held a call for evidence on this, regarding which Act or Ella’s law. That needs to be implemented and it public bodies should be designated as relevant public also needs an independent environmental regulator with authorities, which would then become air quality partners. teeth to implement it. The hon. Member for Ealing, Southall touched on this On the point about not legislating for WHO guidelines issue regarding new developments; I think that this is on air pollution, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster exactly what he is calling for and it will be very helpful— and Minister for the Cabinet Office, the right hon. [Interruption.] I think Madam Chairman is asking me Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) said, when to wind up my speech. he was the Environment Secretary: We have so many other funds that are committed “We have got to ensure our Environment Bill includes a legally through our NO2 plan—£3.8 billion, with £880 million binding commitment on particulate matter so that no part of the to support local authorities, which is very important, country exceeds the levels recommended by the WHO”. and we are updating the local authority framework for I ask again: if the Government are so committed to that. Also, we have myriad funds for transforming cities, tackling air pollution, as the Minister has made out this for green buses, and for cycling and walking, which so afternoon, why will they not commit themselves to many people touched on. We aim to double cycling and legally binding targets that can be implemented? walking by 2030, so we have massive ambition in that regard. I cannot comment further on Heathrow, which was 5.50 pm mentioned by many Members, but we will have to abide Motion lapsed, and sitting adjourned without Question by all of our air quality obligations in whatever we do. put (Standing Order No. 10(14)).

7WS Written Statements 27 APRIL 2021 Written Statements 8WS

For the financial year 2021-22, this funding includes: Written Statements £1.1 billion in school condition allocations for local authorities, large multi-academy trusts, academy sponsors, and dioceses, and other large voluntary aided school groups, to invest in Tuesday 27 April 2021 maintaining and improving the condition of their schools. £0.5 billion available through the condition improvement fund programme for essential maintenance projects at small CABINET OFFICE and stand-alone academy trusts, voluntary aided schools and sixth-form colleges. £0.2 billion of devolved formula capital allocated directly for GOV.UK Verify: Digital Identity Assurance schools to spend on capital projects to meet their own priorities. Figures have been rounded to one decimal place. Full The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Julia details of the allocations including the funding methodology Lopez): I would like to update the House on the GOV.UK for financial year 2021-22 have been published on the Verify programme and the development of a new cross- Department for Education section on the gov.uk website. Government single sign-on and digital identity assurance [HCWS944] pilot. This update follows the written statement in April 2020 made by my colleague the Chancellor of the JUSTICE Duchy of Lancaster, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove). Whiplash Reform Programme Building on our experiences of Verify, and as we announced in last year’s spending review, the Government The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Digital Service is collaborating with other Departments (Robert Buckland): On 26 April 2021, my noble friend to develop the first phase of a new system that will the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice make it easier for people to access Government services (Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, QC) made the following online. This will enable people to find and access written statement. Government services more quickly, allow citizens to The Government remain firmly committed to the prove their identity only once—without needing to re-enter implementation on 31 May 2021 of the necessary and information multiple times—and protect people’s privacy proportionate measures to control the number and cost of throughout. claims for whiplash, as set out in part 1 of the Civil Liability Act 2018. It also intends to implement on 31 May the People rightly expect from the Government a associated increase, from £1,000 to £5,000 to the small personalised, seamless and intuitive online service of claims track limit for road traffic accident (RTA) related the kind they get from their favourite online retailers. personal injury claims. This pilot is an important step in that direction. Work is The Government had previously considered an increase, well underway and we have started the co-design with from £1,000 to £2,000, to the small claims track limit for all services and Departments across Government. other types of personal injury claims, including employers and public liability claims. However, having considered the While this new system is being developed, many users views of a number of stakeholders, including from a wide and connected Government services continue to rely on range of representatives from across the insurance industry GOV.UK Verify,as has been the case during the pandemic. and the personal injury and trade union sectors, the Government The Government have therefore decided to extend the have decided to both limit the proposed increase in the small claims limit for all other personal injury claims to £1,500 current Verify service, enabling new users to sign up instead of £2,000 and to defer the implementation of this until April 2022 and existing users to sign in until April measure until April 2022. 2023. During this time the Government will continue to Delivering this reform remains a key Government priority update the House on the progress of our pilot. but we believe that a more modest increase in the small [HCWS94] claims track limit for non-RTA related claims is justified. Pausing its implementation for 12 months will enable greater focus to be placed on the commencement of the whiplash reforms and the launch of the new official injury claim EDUCATION service for claimants on 31 May 2021. This decision will also provide affected stakeholders additional time to prepare for the increase in April next year. Schools Condition Funding [HCWS943]

TRANSPORT The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb): Today, I am confirming £1.8 billion of capital funding allocations General Aviation in the UK for financial year 2021-22 to maintain and improve the condition of the school estate in England, as announced at the spending review. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport This funding is provided to ensure schools have well (Robert Courts): General Aviation (GA) is often referred ″ maintained facilities to provide students with safe to as the “grassroots of aviation and is the bedrock to environments that support high-quality education. This our successful and world-leading aviation sector. funding represents an increase of over 20% on last It is worth nearly £4 billion to the UK economy, year’s annual allocations and supports the Government’s supporting nearly 40,000 jobs.The hundreds of aerodromes priority of ensuring that every child has the opportunity up and down the country form an important part of the of a place at a good school, whatever their background. nation’s transport infrastructure. 9WS Written Statements 27 APRIL 2021 Written Statements 10WS

General aviation provides the entry point for careers At the heart of these efforts, we will work with in aviation and is fundamental to inspiring the next airfields to strengthen their economic and strategic generation of aviation professionals. It supports vital value both locally,regionally and nationally by supporting services from law enforcement to life-saving airborne their development, and promoting mixed-use where medical and search and rescue teams, and provides there are benefits from offering their unique infrastructure future pilots,engineers and other highly skilled professionals to the wider community including for business, education, a first glimpse of a potential career in aviation. cultural and recreational activities. There are already several airfields within the UK which share their Therefore, it is only right that the Government’s infrastructure with a wide range of industries, as well as vision is for the UK to be the best place in the world for providing vital services to other Government services. general aviation as a flourishing, wealth generating and These airfields and many more are not just important to job-producing sector of the economy. Our ambitions their local economies, but also critical to the success of remain high and we have set out our priorities and how the aviation sector. we can achieve these in the Government’s GA roadmap General aviation will also play a crucial part in our which I am pleased to announce. The roadmap sets out Government’s focus on innovation and decarbonisation. our vision and strategic priorities for the sector, alongside Trialling, testing and rolling out the next generation of our ambitious programme of work that will help us to zero emission technologies within general aviation will deliver this. We will work alongside the CAA and our support their development and pave the way for their GA stakeholders to achieve these ambitions. wider adoption in larger commercial-scale operations— supporting decarbonisation of the wider sector and The GA roadmap is available online at: economy. This will help us reach our net zero target by 2050. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/ uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/980399/ More widely, many aerodromes have been affiliated general-aviation-roadmap-spring-2021.pdf with operations during world wars one and two and have since hosted heritage assets through the form of I also wish to set out the Government’s view that it is museums or have become designated historical sites. It clear from the success of our aviation sector that there is is important these sites, which are so important to our a national need to protect and enhance our strategic heritage, are able to thrive and grow to be enjoyed and network of GA airfields—to ensure they continue to appreciated by generations to come. prosper and drive the economic growth this country Our aviation heritage is rich, deep and rightly a needs and to support levelling up right across the country. source of great national pride. Looking forward, the Government’s vision is for the UK to be the best place Airfields offer potential for highly skilled, dynamic in the world for general aviation as a flourishing, wealth and innovative businesses to grow and flourish—for generating and job-producing sector of the economy. manufacturing and maintenance of aircraft, aviation [HCWS941] services, and for research and innovation. 1MC Ministerial Corrections27 APRIL 2021 Ministerial Corrections 2MC Ministerial Correction [Official Report, 20 April 2021, Vol. 692, c. 881.] Letter of correction from the Minister for Equalities, the hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Kemi Badenoch). Tuesday 27 April 2021 An error has been identified in my response to the GOVERNMENT EQUALITIES hon. Member for Streatham (Bell Ribeiro-Addy). Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities The correct response should have been: The following is an extract from the oral statement on the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities report. Kemi Badenoch: The actual figure is not 25% of Kemi Badenoch: The actual figure is not 25% of black women, but 0.34%. It is a very confusing statistic black women, but 0.34%. It is a very confusing statistic because we often represent the numbers in terms of because we often represent the numbers in terms of numbers per 100,000. numbers per 800,000. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 27 April 2021

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 215 TREASURY—continued Aviation Sector: Financial Support...... 226 Levelling-Up Fund...... 215 Beer Duty ...... 218 Living Standards...... 216 Business Investment ...... 226 Loan Charge: Prosecutions ...... 229 Coronavirus Business Support Schemes...... 229 Retraining and Upskilling...... 220 Covid-19: Support for Businesses...... 222 Small Businesses: Customs Paperwork...... 227 Covid-19: Support for Self-employed People...... 223 Steel Industry and Green Manufacturing Jobs...... 227 Fiscal Framework Agreement ...... 215 Topical Questions ...... 230 Freeports...... 219 UK Steel: Government Infrastructure Projects ...... 219 Helping Young People into Work...... 228 VAT Reduction: Tourism and Hospitality...... 225 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 27 April 2021

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 7WS JUSTICE...... 8WS GOV.UK Verify: Digital Identity Assurance ...... 7WS Whiplash Reform Programme...... 8WS

EDUCATION...... 7WS TRANSPORT ...... 8WS Schools Condition Funding ...... 7WS General Aviation in the UK ...... 8WS MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Tuesday 27 April 2021

Col. No. GOVERNMENT EQUALITIES...... 1MC Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities ...... 1MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 4 May 2021

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 693 Tuesday No. 207 27 April 2021

CONTENTS

Tuesday 27 April 2021

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 215] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe [Col. 237] Answer to urgent question—(James Cleverly)

Post Office Court of Appeal Judgment [Col. 247] Statement—(Paul Scully)

Tool Theft (Prevention) [Col. 261] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Greg Smith)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Fire Safety Bill [Col. 264] Lords message considered

Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill [Col. 286] Lords message considered

Electricity [Col. 307] Motion—(Anne-Marie Trevelyan)—agreed to

Exiting the European Union (Animals) [Col. 318] Motion—(Victoria Prentis)—agreed to

Health and Personal Social Services [Col. 326] Motion—(Rebecca Harris)—on a Division, agreed to

Petition [Col. 330]

Alcohol Products: Labelling [Col. 332] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Support for Asylum Seekers [Col. 27WH] Mental Health: Access to Nature [Col. 57WH] Fire and Rehire [Col. 63WH] Immigration Detention: Victims of Trafficking [Col. 89WH] Air Pollution: London [Col. 96WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 7WS]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 1MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]