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29-08-2014 Operation Spicer Transcript Pp. 06464 12/2107/021PUB06464 CREDO/SPICER PUBLIC 29/08/2014 pp 06464-6557 HEARING COPYRIGHT INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION THE HONOURABLE MEGAN LATHAM PUBLIC HEARING OPERATION CREDO AND SPICER Reference: Operation E12/2107/0821 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS AT SYDNEY ON FRIDAY 29 AUGUST, 2014 AT 10.00AM Any person who publishes any part of this transcript in any way and to any person contrary to a Commission direction against publication commits an offence against section 112(2) of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act 1988. This transcript has been prepared in accordance with conventions used in the Supreme Court. 29/08/2014 6464T E12/2107/0821 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, just before we start, Mr Williams, could you come back into the witness box please. <DARREN WILLIAMS, on former oath [10.01am] THE COMMISSIONER: I just wanted to confirm that from Monday of next week we will be on level 21. Some arrangements have been made to 10 bring in at least an additional table but for technical reasons which I won’t bore you with there won’t be additional microphones so it will mean that when representatives come to answer questions or make an application they’ll have to approach one of the microphones if, if they’re unfortunate enough to be seated in the back row. The other problem which we’ve attempted to solve is that there are really only enough tables for Counsel who have a speaking part so if there are Junior Counsel or solicitors that are presently sitting with Counsel they’re going to have to remove themselves and seat themselves at the back of the room and provide assistance as and when they can but we don’t have room at the tables for every legal 20 representative of every person who is on the list next week or the week after. Now, yes, Mr Henskens. MR HENSKENS: Commissioner, could I just raise an issue with regard to the transcript at page 6375 and, Commissioner, it arises out of an exchange that occurred yesterday and the transcript at the moment doesn’t make sense because it seems as though something’s been deleted out of the transcript. THE COMMISSIONER: Just a minute. Yes. 30 MR HENSKENS: I’m sorry to interrupt Mr Moses’s - - - THE COMMISSIONER: No, where is it? MR HENSKENS: - - - cross-examination but I thought we should deal with this when it’s fresh in our minds. THE COMMISSIONER: What line? MR HENSKENS: Commissioner, at line 30 there was a number of 40 objections and then at line 30, Commissioner, you said, “Yes, thank you, that’s noted, Mr Henskens, go on, Mr Watson.” THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HENSKENS: Now my recollection is that Mr Watson then said words to the effect “It sounds like a lot of people are trying to stop the evidence getting out” and then Mr Izzo objected - - - 29/08/2014 WILLIAMS 6465T E12/2107/0821 (MOSES) THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HENSKENS: - - - and then Mr Moses objected and then Commissioner, you said at the bottom of the page, “All right, Mr Moses, it will be struck from the transcript.” Now instead of the usual fashion where there’s an asterisk put next to passages which are struck from the transcript. It seems as though the words that Mr Watson said have been completely deleted from the transcript. 10 MR WATSON: They’re there on mine, mine must be different to yours. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It’s not on mine. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, it is different. MR HENSKENS: It is different, it’s different from the transcript that seems to have been made available to the, to the practitioners. MR WATSON: I see. Well, it was (not transcribable) we’ll put it back in. 20 MR HENSKENS: It seems as though there are two versions of transcript floating around, Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I don’t know, I don’t know what the complaint is. I think the reference to the- - - MR HENSKENS: Well, it looks like – I mean as, as it reads without Mr Watson’s statement in, it reads for example, Commissioner, that Mr Moses and Mr Izzo were getting very concerned about what I’d said at line 28 and 30 29 without knowing the words that have been deleted so I think - - - THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, as I understand it, as I understand it there was something that Mr Watson said, and I think it was after Mr Izzo’s objection, wasn’t it- - - MR HENSKENS: No. THE COMMISSIONER: - - -and before Mr Moses said, “I object to that, 40 he should withdraw?” MR HENSKENS: No, no, I think it was- - - MR IZZO: Before my objection, Commissioner. MR HENSKENS: Yes. MR IZZO: That’s what I objected to. 29/08/2014 WILLIAMS 6466T E12/2107/0821 (MOSES) MR WATSON: Right. Sorry. We’ll fix it. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. We’ll, we’ll resolve it, Mr Henskens. MR HENSKENS: Anyway, I thought I should raise it, Commissioner, when it’s fresh in our minds. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So there should be a reference to Mr 10 Watson saying something after the words, “Mr Williams,” and then, and then the striking out of the transcript is referrable to that, is it? MR HENSKENS: I think, I think, Commissioner, after you said, “Thank you, that’s noted, Mr Henskens. Go on, Mr Watson,” I think then Mr Watson made a statement or a comment which was then objected to by Mr Izzo. MR WATSON: Sorry, Commissioner, we’ve got it, we can fix it. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: All right. MR WATSON: It’s trivial. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. MR WATSON: We’ll fix it and- - - MR HENSKENS: It’s not trivial, it’s important that the record is correct. 30 THE COMMISSIONER: We’ll remedy it, Mr Henskens, we’ll remedy it. Yes, Mr- - - MR WATSON: Oh, sorry, somebody asked for it to be struck out, they’ve won on appeal getting it struck back in. THE COMMISSIONER: Well- - - MR WATSON: But can we move on and we’ve got to get through Mr Williams, it’s very important. 40 THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Yes, Mr Moses. MR MOSES: Yeah, I think if that’s struck back in, but yeah, that’s fine. O.K. Mr Williams, yesterday, or just Commissioner, yesterday about page 6462 line 40 I indicated I was going to take the witness to a meeting on 9 February, but we’ve reviewed the transcript overnight, Mr Williams, and I think on the last occasion at page 3271 of the transcript when you gave evidence on the last occasion, I think you said you didn’t recall attending a 29/08/2014 WILLIAMS 6467T E12/2107/0821 (MOSES) meeting on 9 February at 14 Martin Place with National Party Ministers, so I’ll move on rather than take you to that topic?---Okay. Now, yesterday you were asked some questions about Mr Simmons, S-i-m- m-o-n-s?---Yes. And you gave some evidence yesterday that Michael Gallacher knew Mr Simmons. Do you recall giving that evidence?---Yes. 10 And this is the case isn’t it, that Mr Gallacher told you at some stage in one of your discussions over the years about a story involving Mr Simmons dating back to when Mr Gallacher came to be involved in the Hunter back in 2002/2003. And do you recall Mr Gallacher telling you that Mr Simmons who had been a former Labor Minister was a person who had approached him and encouraged him to have the Liberal Party run candidates in the Newcastle Hunter area?---Um, I don’t recall it, he could have told me that but I can’t recall it, Mr Moses. Okay. And do you recall Mr Gallacher saying to you that Mr Simmons had 20 said to him back in these early days that the only way Newcastle could move ahead and get things done with Government was if it became a marginal seat and was no longer taken for granted by the Labor Party? ---Um, he could have, it was a common, common view that the Liberal Party needed to be more active in Newcastle to- - - And was that a view that Mr Simmons had expressed to you?---Um, I can’t recall any specifics but he could have. Okay. Now, do you recall attending a dinner on 10 March, 2011 with Mr 30 Stoner?---Um, could you be more- - - At the Terrigal Crowne Plaza?---I don’t know the date, but yes, I did have a dinner there once. It was the night before the Great Debate on 11 March?---Oh, okay. I know I did meet him there once for dinner. Okay?---Yeah. 40 And do you recall – and please say so if you don’t – do you recall Mr Gallacher recounting that story involving Mr Simmons that night over dinner?---Um- - - That is encouraging the Liberals to run in Newcastle so that it wouldn’t be taken for granted?---Um, not that I can recall, not that I can recall. Is it possible he may have said it and you just can’t recall?---It was a, it was 29/08/2014 WILLIAMS 6468T E12/2107/0821 (MOSES) a, I suppose a dinner that was, general politics was chatted about so it could have been. Okay. Thank you. Now, if I can take you to the next topic which is the Great Debate of 11 March, 2011. You were at that debate, correct?---Yes. And that was a debate that was hosted by the Property Council on Hunter issues?---Um, I think so, yeah.
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