[Tuesday, 14 September 1982] 270970

Beverley Hospital Board, as President of the IPOgitatii (ihunrit Beverley Trout Club and as Vice President of the Beverley branch of the Farmers' Union. Tuesday, 14 September 1982 Roy was a quiet person but dedicated to his public duties. He had a tidy mind and kept his The PRESIDENT (the Hon. Clive Griffiths) public and private duties separately organised. He took the Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. was loyal and steadfast of purpose. He was help- ful to new members of the House and popular THE LATE HON. C. R. ABBEY with members of all parties. He was held in the Condolence: Motion highest esteem by all who knew him, particularly by his constituents. THE HON. 1. G. MEDCALF (Metropolitan- Leader of the House) [4.31 pm.J: I seek leave to He will be sadly missed by his many parliamen- move, without notice, a motion of condolence con- tary friends and colleagues past and present, but cerning the death of the Hon. C. R. Abbey on 2 in particular our sympathy goes out to his widow, September 1982. Wint, and her family in their bereavement. Leave granted. THE HON. D. K. VANS (South Metro- politan-Leader of the Opposition) 14.34 p.m.]: I The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: I move- second the motion moved by the Leader of the That this House express its deep regret at House. Roy Abbey was in this Chamber when I the death of the Hon. Charles Roy Abbey, a entered it as a new member and I very quickly former member of the Legislative Council for formed an association with him. Whilst our politi- the West Province, place on record its ap- cal ideologies were not as one, I had a deep re- preciation of his long and meritorious public spect for him. Some of the things he outlined to service and tender its profound sympathy to me when we spoke four or five years ago about his widow and the members of his family in what may happen in this country, unfortunately their bereavement. now appear to be occurring. It is my sad duty to move this motion occasioned Roy Abbey was a gentleman. He was a quietly by the death of the Hon. Charles Roy Abbey on 2 spoken and very sincere person. He was a person September. whom not only 1, but other members, Were very The Hon. Roy Abbey was elected to the Legis- pleased to call a friend. lative Council in May 1958 as member for I very much regret that as I was in another area Central Province and subsequently as member for I could not attend his funeral in Beverley. It is sad West Province in 1965. He retired in 1977. On his that a gentleman of the undoubted ability of Roy entering Parliament, Roy made it clear to the Abbey, did not enjoy a long retirement. House what his prime role would be when de- I join with the Leader of the House in paying livering his maiden speech. He said on that my respects and extend my sympathy to the mem- occasion- bers of his family that he left behind. I am a farmer and have a vital interest in THE HON. V. 3. FERRY (South-West) [4.35 the primary industries in Western Australia. p.m.]: I wish to be associated with the sentiments Those who knew Roy during his parliamentary expressed in the motion moved by the Leader of career came to respect him greatly for his the House and supported by the Leader of the intimate knowledge of agricultural matters which, Opposition, in respect of the untimely sad passing 1 might add, he imparted to this Chamber at of our former member, the Hon. Roy Abbey. every opportunity. In this regard he reflected the Roy was a tremendous friend, as far as I was feelings of a large and important section of our concerned, both in and outside Parliament. He community. was a man of tremendous character and main- To many of the members who sat in this House tained wonderful principles in his life. He had no with Roy perhaps he will be best remembered for hesitation in expressing his views on things about his regular and learned contributions on the sub- which he felt strongly. He did not speak only for ject of brucellosis in cattle. I doubt whether a. the sake of speaking, but when he did speak I be- session passed in his 19 years as a member of Par- lieve all members anid, indeed, the public-and liament that the subject was not raised by him. certainly his constituents-respected him for what Roy Abbey was an active participant in local he said and did. It has been said he was held in affairs having served as Vice Chairman of the great respect by his constituents over some 19 Beverley Road Board, as a member of the years, but the fact that he was in this Parliament 2710 2710[COUNCIL] for that period is a sure testimony to the character a person who was willing to help and give of him- of the man. self on every occasion. Since entering Parliament I attended his funeral in Beverley 10 days or so I found him a warm colleague. He was a person ago and I noted that he was honoured by the pres- with whom one could discuss a problem quietly ence of a large number of people from throughout and he had tremendous wisdom to impart to new Western Australia, which indicated the high re- members in this place. Roy Abbey had a good spect in which he was held. sense of humour and enjoyed a joke and many of 1, too, extend my personal sympathy to his wife us will remember him for that. I join with other and family at his passing. members in this House in expressing my condol- THE HON. N. E. BAXTER (Central) [4.36 ence to his wife and family. p.m.]: I join with other speakers in extending my THE HON. G. C. MacKINNON (South-West) condolence to the Abbey family at the loss of [4.41 p.m.]: I would like to add my words of con- their husband and father, Roy. I knew Roy a dolence and convey my sympathy to Roy Abbey's long time, going back to 1950, and we were quite wife, Win. I came into this House in 1958 and good friends. Although he defeated me for my Roy Abbey came a couple of years later. Roy, as seat in 1958, that did not stop us from being everyone has said, was a thoughtful and heart- friends for many years. We had a wonderful as- warming member of this House and a man who sociation over the years. was fully involved in his personal life and agricul- I express my deep and sincere sympathy to his tural pursuits. We had the impression that he did wife and family and join with those who have not care whether cows were white or black as long spoken their sentiments. as they brought in a good profit! He was success- THE HON. D. J. WORDSWORTH (South) ful as a stud breeder and a politician and in this [4.37 p.m.]: 1, too, want to be associated with this life where one tends to narrow down ac- motion. I sat with the Hon. Roy Abbey on the quaintenances and friends, the loss of a person back bench over there for six years and he became like Roy Abbey is felt even greater. a very close friend who guided me in my early I wish to be remembered as one of those who years in this House. Not only did we have politics regarded Roy Abbey with affection and I join in common but also, of course, a very keen with you, Sir, in expressing sympathy to Mrs interest in agriculture. Our only disagreement was Abbey. that Roy Abbey believed that a bull should be white and I believed it should be black; apart THE HON. TOM KNIGHT (South) [4.42 from that, we had a lot in common. We regularly p.m.]: I wish to be associated with the condol- passed the time of day in discussing the various ences expressed by members in this House. As political and agricultural problems of the time. I you would be aware, Sir, in company with very much appreciated our close relationship. yourself and the Hon. Vic Ferry I attended the 1, too, extend my sympathy to his wife and funeral of Roy Abbey in Beverley last week. I was family. honoured to be asked by Roy's wife, Win, to be a pallbearer. THE HON. 1. G. PRATT (Lower West) [4.39 p.m.]: I want to associate myself with this motion. I was a close friend of Roy Abbey when he was Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the in this House and during his retirement I kept in funeral of the late Roy Abbey, much as I wished close contact with him. I was aware of his illness to do so. My association with Roy Abbey goes and I visited him on several occasions while he back long before I entered Parliament when I was was in hospital in Perth and maintained contact involved in a community organisation in the with him when he returned home. His wife rang Armadale area and Roy was one of our members. me and advised Roy had passed away the previous At that time our Assembly member and Minister, day and asked me to be a pallbearer. The Premier Gerry Wild, was very busy and as a result Roy asked me to represent the Government and Cabi- was required to do a lot of work in the Armadale net at the funeral. From the comments made by area. He was involved in the formation of the Ar- the Premier it was obvious that C. R. Abbey, af- madale High School, and P & C members from fectionately known to us as Roy. was held in high time to time have spoken to me about the active esteem by all who knew him. He contributed assistance Roy gave at that time in their endeav- greatly to this House, the Government and the ours. people outside. His contribution to agriculture Later when I was a member of the Ar- and the shorthorn cattle society will be long re- madale-Kelmscott Shire Council I was closely as- membered. His gentle understanding of people sociated with him and I always found that he was was his greatest virtue. [Tuesday, 14 September 1982J 271171

Roy became involved with nursing homes and BILLS (10): ASSENT this showed his concern for people. He was re- Messages from the Governor received and read sponsible for a large sum of money being spent on notifying assent to the following Bills- the care of other people by the establishment of I . Stamp Amendment Bill (No. 3). these institutions. 2. Industry (Advances) Amendment Bill. I would like my condolence passed through this House, to his wife, Win, and family. This State 3. The Commercial Bank of Australia Lim- has lost a statesman and we have lost a dear and ited (Merger) Sill. sincere friend. 4. The Commercial Banking Company of Sydney Limited (Merger) Bill. THE NON. G. E. MASTERS (West-Minister for Labour and Industry) [4.45 p.m.]: I wish to be 5. Supreme Court Amendment Bill (No. 2). associated with remarks already expressed and I 6. Administration Amendment Bill. would like my condolence passed to Roy Abbey's 7. Workers' Compensation Supplementation family. I was fortunate when I came into Parlia- Fund Amendment Bill. ment because I shared the West Province with 8. Carnarvon Banana Industry Roy Abbey. I learned to have a great regard for (Compensation Trust Fund) Amend- him and I took notice of his wisdom and advice. ment Bill, Everyone has said he was a quiet gentleman, but 9. Western Australian Meat Industry Auth- he had a tremendous reeling for people and helped ority Amendment Bill (No. 2). wherever he could. I was under the impression that Roy went about his job in the West Province 10. Consumer Affairs Amendment Bill (No. 2). quietly and did not seem to be fully involved in The PRESIDENT: Are there any notices of many of the activities in the area. However, when motion for the introduction of Bills? the time for elections came he always beat his [interruption from the Gallery.] opponent and he certainly retained his popularity The PRESIDENT: Order! I ask the stranger in in the electorate. the Gallery to cease interjecting, and to sit down I hope his family enjoy their future and the if he wishes to remain. memory of Roy Abbey will live on with them and [Interruption from the Gallery.] members of this House. The PRESIDENT: Order! I suggest that, if THE PRESIDENT (the Hon. Clive Griffiths): you wish to stay, you sit down and refrain from As is customary on an occasion like this I would making any comment. like to add my personal expression of condolence on the passing of Roy Abbey. I was fortunate QUESTIONS enough to serve with him for 12 years in this Par- Questions were taken at this stage. liament. I came into Parliament in 1965 in the days when several members shared the same BILLS (2): THIRD READING office-there were about four of us in each office. Roy Abbey drew the short straw and had me im- I- Bail Bill. posed on him. He listened to every speech of mine 2. Acts Amendment (Bail) Bill. three times and he did it with dignity and a sense Bills read a third time, on motions by the of well being. He listened to my speech in re- Hon. 1. G. Medcalf (Attorney General), hearsal, in the House and again when we went and transmitted to the Assembly. over it afterwards and he was very tolerant towards me. LOTTERIES (CONTROL) AMENDMENT His redeeming features have already been men- BILL (No. 2) tionedl by previous speakers and I concur with all the remarks made. With other members of this Second Reading House I attended his funeral and I have extended Debate resumed from 24 August. to his wife, on your behalf, our sincere sympathy THE HON. CARRY KELLY (South Metro- to her and her family. I would ask honourable politan) [5.30 p-m.J: The Labor Party does not members, as is customary, to observe the passing oppose this Bill but it does have some reservations of this man by rising in their places for one min- which I wish to raise. ute. There is some concern that an instant lottery Question passed, members standing. will undermine the existing standard lotteries, as 2712 2712[COUNCIL] the introduction of Lotto has undoubtedly under- I reiterate, the Opposition does not oppose the mined the lotteries existing before it was Bill introduced. It is clear that the number of draws THE HON. N. E. BAXTER (Central) [5.32 each week has declined substantially. If the in- p.m.]: I cannot let this Bill pass without com- stant lotteries will undermine the so-called stan- menting on some issues which I feel should be dard lotteries it is felt that there could be a conse- questioned. quent drop in the revenue made available to the Provision traditional beneficiaries of lotteries: hospitals and is made that the commission shall apply to the Minister for permission to conduct a charities. lottery in the prescribed form, and this is con- To the knowledge of the Labor Party and my- tained in the principal Act. It is Provided that the self, the Government has given no firm undertak- Minister may grant a permit for more than one ing that the funds generated by instant lotteries lottery at a time-a series of lotteries. for sport and culture will be in addition to the I am wondering whether the same will apply to funds provided already by the Government for instant lotteries as a result of an application by these purposes. When introducing instant lotteries the commission to the Minister to conduct, say, a to help fund these organisations, the Government dozen or nine lotteries. When those lotteries are should give a commitment that the funds so gen- under way and some have been drawn will the erated will be in addition to the funds that these commission be able to apply for another six or organisations and bodies receive already. nine lotteries? Will the new lotteries be conducted On the general question of gambling and the in a similar manner to the standard lotteries? activities of the last few weeks, the Government Another question refers to the Minister for must really get its act together, especially on the Recreat~on, the Minister for Cultural Affairs, and matter of illegal gambling. We have a policy of the Chief Secretary. The Bill provides that those containment and tolerance which might be all Ministers shall distribute the funds, in consul- very well, but apparently it does not extend to tation with unspecified persons. We note that the games such as two-up. Another game called Minister for Recreation is also the Minister for "heads and tails", a most innocuous form of Cultural Affairs and the Chief Secretary. gambling-if in fact it can be called gambling-is played often at quiz nights held by small organis- It does not seem to be a satisfactory provision ations to raise money. Judging by the number of that one Minister should distribute funds. This raids by police in recent weeks this gambling is distribution could involve $2.5 million and I be- not to be tolerated; these functions will be raided lieve it will create some contention amongst sport- and the people brought before the courts. ing bodies. It could be that $1t million is made available for football and $250 000 each to tennis, Under this "non-policy"-that is the onl way soccer, and hockey. We could then come to the to describe it-of tolerance and containment- situation where we have to consider whether a The Hon. P. G. Pendal: John Tonkin used it. darts club constitutes a sporting body and The Hon. GARRY KELLY: -the untaxed whether it should receive part of the distribution. turnover of Northbridge casinos does not benefit Some formula should be drawn up, on a per- sport or culture or anyone else in the State; except centage basis, in accordance with what it is be- of course the casino owners. lieved the sporting bodies should receive. We If the Government made an effort to get its know football has a large following and there is a share of the gambling dollar from these lucrative much smaller one for soccer and tennis. The dis- illegal casinos, perhaps the necessity for tribution of funds will be a difficult task for the introducing new forms of gambling would be ob- Minister. A formula along the lines I have viated because the amount of money that is suggested should be devised, and I ask the Mtnts- turned over in these casinos is quite substantial. ter to give that some thought because I anticipate These illegal casinos are contained; anyone who some problems in the future. tries to open a casino is prevented from doing so THE HON. R. G. PIKE (North Metropoli- whilst those in existence are allowed to continue. tan-Chief Secretary) [5.36 p.m.]: The Hon. However, the State Government receives no rake- Norman Baxter referred quite properly to the off at all; it is a loss to revenue. existing section 7 of the Lotteries (Control) Act If the Government is serious about controlling which states- gambling, it should look at these questions and 7. (1) The Commission shall, when it come to grips with the problem of illegal wishes to conduct a lottery, apply in the pre- gambling. scribed form to the Minister for a permit not [Tuesday, 14 September 19821 271371

less than 14 days before the proposed com- osition that money should be spent willy-nilly by mencement of the lottery. statutory authorities. It is not a practice to which The amendment to which the honourable member I hold. I draw the attention of members to the refers relates to section 7. 1 inform members that community recreation and sporting facilities Fund, one permission would be given by the Minister to which allocated $1.5 million last year. I do not cater for what is regarded as the unique nature of know the amount for this year. The allocations instant lotteries because an instant lottery is con- are made through the local authorities to sporting tinuous; 500 000 $1 tickets will be in the continu- organisations. The advisory committee advises the ous process of being sold. Minister, who then makes a decision as to where In that way it is pos- These lotteries are run on a continuous basis in the funds will be directed. other Australian States. When I looked at the sible to take the proper action on existing commit- situation in totality in Melbourne I noticed they ments for local authorities and sport. It has a di- were continuous, and this amendment to section 7 rect relevance because it is a sporting facility was considered to be necessary. fund. Another paint to which the Hon. Norman In the case of lottery funds, the Minister, Baxter referred is important and is one of the through his advisory committee, will be able to main sections oF the Bill which deals with the dis- make a proper ministerial determination. tribution of funds. It is proper to say that the I congratulate the Hon. Carry Kelly for the Chief Secretary and the Minister for Recreation points he made because to the best of my knowl- and Cultural Affairs is for the time being the edge it is the First occasion on which he has dealt same person but it is proper to anticipate that with a Bill. Fthink that is significant. may not be always the case. The provision has The honourable member said that instant been constructed in such a way that the Minister lotteries may undermine the existing lotteries and for Recreation and Cultural Affairs, for the time Lotto. In 1978 the turnover for lotteries was $22.7 being, will be responsible for the distribution of 10 million and in 1979, when Lotto was introduced per cent of the gross take of the lottery to culture the turnover was $21.4 million for lotteries and and sport respectively. $2.344 million for Lotto. If chat is related to the The Final question is a difficult one. The mem- turnover as at 30 June 1982 we note that the ber thought that consideration should be given to turnover for lotteries was $19.1 million-a a percentage basis for distribution to the various reduction of approximately $2 million since cultural bodies. I have given that some thought 1978-and the turnover for Lotto was $23.65 and it will be my intention, in the main, for those million; making a total of $42.75 million. That funds to be distributed on the recommendation of means since 1978 the turnover has increased from the existing Western Australian Arts Council. $22.7 million to $42.75 million. The turnover for With regard to the Department for Youth, Lotto has clearly increased and lotteries have held Sport and Recreation, the member will be aware their own. that the distribution of funds is proposed to be the The information I have on this matter reveals function of the Minister, not a statutory that lotteries, throughout the totality of the Com- committee-and to suggest for instance that monwealth, are in a slight regression and the canoeing should receive a percentage of the fund turnover has been taken over by Lotto. Favourite would be undesirable because the activity may numbers have made inroads into the traditional have appeal at present but may not in the future. turnover in this State also. The same could apply to lacrosse and any other The point the honourable member made in re- sporting activity. To distribute funds on a gard to funding and the consequent decrease in percentage basis to each sporting activity would the amount of money available will not occur be- become untenable, impracticable and inoperable. cause this Bill is structured in such a manner that It is the intention of the Government to struc- the same percentage of money from Lot to, ture an advisory committee which will have rep- lotteries and instant lotteries will be paid to char- resentatives from the existing sporting organis- ity as has always been the case. He sought an ations in Western Australia. The composition of undertaking that the amount of money taken that advisory committee has yet to be determined. from instant lotteries for sport and culture in I assure members that this legislation is some- Western Australia should be in addition to thc; thing of a breakthrough in terms of Government existing CRF funding rather than instead of that attitude to authority, particularly statutory auth- funding. The point is well made. I am not at lib- ority; because in the past Governments of both erty at this stage to indicate what is the Budget colours have seemed to be wedded to the prop- determination, but members would be aware that 2714 2714[COUNCIL] to secure funds for my portfolio at Cabinet 1 have this clause and make some provision to include in 10 be like a one-eyed football supporter, and I the Bill, an advisory committee and who shall be Live an assurance that that has been the case. It on it. has always been my express intention that the The Hon. R. G. PIKE: The honourable mem- funds from lotteries and Lotto should be, as far as ber said this matter is not in the Bill because I possible, in addition to the CRF funds for the arts said in my second reading speech that the Minis- in Western Australia, and not instead of it. The ter will consult an advisory committee. It is not honourable member's general comments on the Government's intention to have a structured gambling were matters of opinion and were made advisory committee within the Bill. The Govern- in a very structured way. I do not say I agree with ment takes the view that it is elected to govern, them, but they have no relevance to the Bill. and it is the business of Ministers to make de- Question put and passed. cisions. If we adopt a policy of having a statutory Bill read a second time. authority make decisions for Government, or having a structured advisory committee in the In Committee Act, government is restricted. My experience with the community sporting and recreational facilities The Deputy Chairman of Committees (the fund which has on it representatives of Treasury, Hon. 1. G. Pratt) in the Chair; the Hon. R. G. the chairman of the principal advisory committee Pike (Chief Secretary) in charge of the Bill. of the Department of Youth, Sport and Rec- Clauses I to 7 put and passed. reation, and representatives of local government, Clause 8: Section 9 amended- business and sport, and which last year handed The Hon. N. E. BAXTER: I take issue with the out $1.5 million directly to sporting bodies or Minister in regard to this clause, particularly in through local authorities, is that it is a practical and good example of the way Governments should relation to the distribution of funds. In his reply the Minister said there would be an advisory com- function. mittee and oiher persons would be consulted. Without the strictures of bureaucracy they get Nowhere in the Bill or in his second reading down to the business of making decisions on the speech can I find any reference to an advisory state of the community and in this case, sport, at committee. The Bill at page 8, line 6, says- the time. I do not see any difficulty, nor do I see (ic) The Minister for Recreation and the any future Minister being placed in a difficult that as a Minister for Cultural Affairs may for the position. I have given an undertaking seek advice. In regard to the WA purpose of deciding on the distribution of Minister I will money will be spent moneys under subsection (lb) consult such Arts Council, the bulk of the struc- persons and bodies as they think fit. on the recommendations of that existing tured body. The money for sport will be distrib- In other words, as the Minister thinks fit until the uted as a consequence of a final decision by the portfolios are split. In his second reading speech Minister on the advice of an advisory committee the Chief Secretary said- which has yet to be siructu red. Under the provisions of the Bill, those The Hon. N. E. BAXTER: Is it not much bet- Ministers shall distribute the money in such ter to have a statutory authority under the Act proportions as they think Fit among bodies than an ad hoc one set up by the Minister? Any engaged in the conduct of sport or cultural ad hoc committee will be under suspicion by the activities. For the purpose of deciding on the bodies which receive the money. It will create a distribution of the money, the Ministers may difficult position when funds are distributed in the consult such persons or bodies as they think future. I refer to the WAFL and the approach it f it. made about the distribution of TAB funds and Nowhere is there any mention of an advisory wanting some of that money. The Minister Cannot committee. If there is to be such a committee it tell me that the WAFL will be satisfied with an should be set out in the Bill, along with its person- allocation from lottery funds by the Minister and nel. Under* this clause the distribution of the an unknown body. It will not be satisfied if it does money will be in the hands of the Minister, or if not get what it considers is the appropriate the departments are split, of the two Ministers. amount. The Minister is making a bed of thorns One will distribute the money to sport and the for himself in putting forward a Bill without a other to cultural affairs. At present one Minister statutory advisory committee. At present the S$1.5 handles the distribution of money from both de- million to which the Minister referred is distri- partments. This proposal creates a difficult situ- buted in small amounts. The proposals in the Bill ation and the Minister should think again about are a different proposition. The Minister and the [Tuesday, 14 September 1982]171 2715

Government should have given this matter more bility of occupying such positions, that they thought when the legislation was drafted and should look at the Bill very carefully. As Mr should have provided more safeguards so that Baxter pointed out, under this legislation, people there cannot be any reaction from any sport about could face grave consequences and finish up in a their allocation. most invidious position. The only line of defence is The I-on. R. G. PIKE: It is my experience as a the Auditor General-there is no-one else. Minister that the determinations which are made are under suspicion whether or not the body mak- Sitting suspended from 6.01 to 7.30 p.m. ing the allocation is a Statutory body. The WA The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: Prior to the Arts Council which is a statutory authority is a tea suspension I was trying to assist the Minister classic example of that. The Arts Council is by pointing out one or two serious flaws in his always subject to criticism, and when the Bill was thinking in regard to this piece of legislation. It is introduced by the Hon. John Tonkin, both he and an extremely difficult job, because the Minister Mr Ross H-utchinson made the point that its de- has a well known antipathy towards statutory cisions would be subject to query. committees, and I can understand that. I have The community sporting and recreational fa- tried to point out the value committees serve, par- cilities fund, which is a body set up in the time of ticularly where money is involved. the Hon. Graham MacKinnon, is a very I woutd not expect the Oppositton to cavil at responsible body. The sums of money it handles this. I would think, in its present situation, ex- are not small as the IHon. Norm Baxter said. A pecting to win the next election-quite apart from sporting body can receive up to $10 000. Local the fact that it will be disappointed-it would authorities can receive, and have received, from alter its thinking. that organisation up to $50 000 and $tO00000, The H-on. D. K. Dans: Have you ever heard of and in some cases, $200 000. The determinations an Opposition which does not think it will win the by that advisory committee have not been next election? challenged, and it works very well with a minimum of bureaucracy and of fuss. The Hon. G. C. MacKIN NON: No. The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I have been The I-on. D. K. Darts: Then why make such a most blameworthy in that 1 have not looked at stupid assertion? this matter until it was drawn to my attention by The Hon G. C. MacKINNON: Whoever will the Hon. Norm Baxter. The Chief Secretary has be the future Minister for Recreation and Cul- had brief experience as a Minister. Any Minister tural Affairs will look forward to the proposition who takes the sorts of risks that he is taking in of putting money precisely where he wants it to be this Bill should go back and do a little learning. for political purposes. That might suit a member He is taking a risk in Government and a greater who is in Government; it might suit a member risk in Opposition. I do not approve of the politi- who expects to be in Government; but I suggest it cal nature currently being given to the Arts should not suit people who are here to legislate for Advisory Council. It was set up to remove the al- the welfare of the community as a whole. Mem- location of grants from criticism, but it is becom- bers should bear in mind there is a distinct differ- ing a very political exercise. The Chief Secretary ence in this situation but, on the floor of the said he would set up a "buddy-buddy" committee Chamber, our votes have the same value. to tell him who would get the money. We have When members become part of the Govern- enough trouble when the committee that advises ment they may believe their votes are worth a lot on allocating the money is at arm's length from more than other votes, but that is not true. How- the Minister. The Chief Secretary is correct in ever, I suggest a distinction exists and we owe a saying that I set uip the committee with the assist- debt of gratitude to the Hon. Norman Baxter for ance of the current Under Treasurer. The whole pointing out that in this Bill we are placing one of idea was to keep the committee at arm's length. our colleagues, who is a Minister, in a situation of The greatest single danger facing any member of peril and we are placing ourselves in the situation Parliament, and in particular a Minister, is of of having to answer all sorts of questions in regard being branded in any shape or form as having to the unfair distribution of funds. However, with wrongfully used money. a properly constituted committee standing be- The whole parliamentary system is designed, to tween the Minister and the constituency at large, a very large extent, to remove the possibility of a safety measure is built in, and it alarms me that graft and corruption, and it has been extremely has been forgotten. successful. However, I would point out to mem- This tended to be forgotten when the com- bers who, perhaps in the future, face the possi- mittee was talked about initially and this high- 2716 2716[COUNCIL] lights the fact that I was right at that time, be- Both the Hon. Norman Baxter and the Hon. cause here we are leaving ourselves in the situ- Graham MacKinnon have served with great dis- ation of relying on the integrity of the particular tinction as Ministers in this State. As I recollect, Minister-in this case that integrity is un- both once held the massive spending portfolio of doubted-and the Auditor General. Health. Therefore, daily both of them would have In the whole framework of the Westminster been making decisions with the authority vested system that has never been considered to be in them when they received their commissions. enough and that is why all types of safeguards They would have been spending much larger sums have been required. This is an important matter. I of money than those proposed to be spent under never cease to be amazed at the Hon. Norman this Bill. Baxter's perspicacity and his assiduous attention The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Always with to his duties as a member of Parliament even on official advice. the eve of his retirement, and I pay tribute to him The Hon. N. E. Baxter: And with the per- for that. mission of the Cabinet. This matter deserves very serious consideration The Hon. R. G. PIKE: Members should bear in and I beg the Minister for his own protection and mind exactly the same structure will pertain in for the protection of those who follow him, to this situation. The community recreation facilities think very carefully before he makes a firm de- advisory committee makes recommendations to cision to force the matter through on the the Minister, who refers the matter to Cabinet numbers. and the same structure will devolve here. Both The Hon. R. G. PIKE: I thank the Hon. members are aware Acts do not exist covering the Graham MacKinnon for his measured and structure of departments. Most of these matters thoughtful contribution and I am mindful of the are covered by Executive Council decisions. points he has made. Of course, this decision has As far as the funds allocated to sport are con- been supported by the Government, the Cabinet. cerned, recommendations will be referred to Cabi- and others. net for verification. I see no departure from the As I understand it, the Hon. Graham norm here, and I ask the Chamber to support the MacKinnon indicated he was responsible for set- clause. ting up the committee which advises on the com- The Hon. TOM McNEIL: I agree with the munity recreation and sporting facilities fund. comments made by the Hon. Norman Baxter and The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: I said that I did the Hon. Graham MacKinnon. The Minister is so in conjunction with the present Under being left open to an enormous amount of pres- Treasurer, but the Under Treasurer had a bigger sure. In saying that, I do not for one moment for- part to play in it than I did. get the recent lobbying by the WA Football League which I believe sought approximately $1.5 The Hon. R. G. PIKE: I merely make the point million, representing 50 per cent of the $3 million that that fund has existed for a number of years it hoped to glean from surplus TAB expenditure. I and, on average, has spent $1 million to $2 million do not think the picture has changed greatly. I a year either through local government authorities know the WAFL was disappointed when it was or through direct grants to sporting organisations decided it should not be granted a portion of TAB with a maximum of $10 000. Thierefore, for the funds. purpose of this debate in which we are talking about contributions to sport, its functions are not The proclamation of this legislation would entirely dissimilar. The committee was comprised place an enormous amount of pressure on the of representatives from the Treasury, local Minister. I am not sure as to exactly the manner government, the Department for Youth, Sport in which an advisory committee should be consti- and Recreation, and the business sector associated tuted, but I assume the Department for Youth, with sport, and the chairman of the principal Sport and Recreation would have a big say and committee, who at present is Mr Dettman. That the committee could be set up in a manner similar is an advisory committee which makes recommen- to the WA Sporting Federation. However, it dations to the Minister in precisely the same way would be possible to establish a body of men able as is proposed in the Bill in respect of the funds to make recommendations to the Minister. from the sports-cultural instant lottery. There is It is to be hoped the Minister will heed the not one iota of difference between the two. Both suggestions made by some of the more experi- end up on the Minister's desk and he then makes enced back-bench members and adjourn the de- a ministerial decision. bate for further examination of the legislation. [Tuesday, 14 September 1982j]71 2717

The N-on. P. G. PENDAL: I shall make a brief fact that I was responsible for the expenditure of contribution to the debate in support of the many millions of dollars, but in practice the only clause. One of the important principles overlooked money I counted was the money which once a previously was that this Bill seeks to require a week my junior typist requested from me, and Minister to be responsible directly to the Parlia- that was the two shillings, subsequently 20c. for ment for any actions he might take. I believe that tea money. Some members may not ind that to is the import of the Bill and perhaps the Minister be humorous, but I find it to be a humorous side could indicate the position by a nod or a shake of view of the activities of a Minister. the head. I understand the Hon. Norman Baxter Mr Pendal with a bit of luck may find out one and other members were taking exception to- day that a Minister is distanced from the re- The Hon. N. E. Baxter: I was not taking excep- sponsibility of actually handling money in the way tion at all. this measure will make the Minister directly re- The Hon. P. G. PENDAL: -the clause which sponsible. Time proven procedures distance a will not permit a statutory body to hand out the Minister from that actual responsibility, and a goodies. very good reason exists for that. Virtually all the faults of our system can be traced directly to that The Hon. N. E. Baxter: No. reason; that is, the necessity to avoid graft and The Hon. P. G. PENDAL: In that case. I mis- corruption, to avoid the merest taint of graft or heard the honourable member, because he was corruption. The procedures followed require a followed by at least two other speakers who reasonable and legitimate explanation for the ex- stressed the underlying point made earlier by Mr penditure of money so as to avoid any accusation Baxter, that being that a Minister would come that money is expended for political reasons. under enormous pressure in deciding in the ulti- Certainly a Minister signs contracts, but the mate where these funds should be distributed system is devised so that it is virtually impossible amongst the sporting and cultural organisations of for, say, the Minister for Works, to mention to a the State. friend that if he pays to the Minister $x the Min- I am surprised to hear some of the more experi- ister will ensure he gets a contract. I do not know enced members say that, because, as I understand of any way such a thing could be done under our it, the Minister for Works in this State has enor- system. mous powers, for example, to sign contracts. In- The [i-on. N. E. Baxter: Neither do IL deed, the IHIn. Graham MacKinnon once served The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: We have the in that portfolio. In that case we are talking about method of calling tenders, and other procedures the scrutiny of a Minister who handles up to $500 which must be followed. I know this Minister has million-worth of public money each year. not included this provision deliberately for the We are talking about no more than $2 million purpose of using money for political reasons, but or $3 million a year, and in any case it is not the he has done so as a result of his lack of experience amount of money that is questioned, it is the prin- and political judgment in these sorts of things. I ciple, and in this ease the same principle applies. suggest most forcefully that the provision allows If I am on the wrong track one of the previous for the possibility of his being accused at some speakers may be able to indicate that to me, but time in the future. we seem to be taking objection to a clause in a The Hon. N. E. Baxter: Or any other Minister. Bill which may be passed by this Parliament to become an Act of Parliament under which the The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I intended to Minister will be responsible directly to this make that point. This Minister has an obligation Chamber. to cater for those who follow him, and surely as night follows day they will. The Hon. "-. W. Gayfer: That is not what Mr Baxter took objection to. In reply to the previous speaker, the adminis- trative procedures laid down in the various Acts The Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I am not talking exist to safeguard a Minister from accusation by about what Mr Baxter took objection to. My ensuring that he does not have direct involvement understanding of M r Baxter's objections is that he in a way which would allow him to say to a called for some sort of statutory body to be estab- builder, "Look, you put $X in my bank account lished by this Parliament to distribute the money and I will see you get the contract." I do not know in the fund. of any way that could be done. I do not know that The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I must hasten any Minister has even come close to doing such a to comment on the Hon. Phil Pendal's remarks. thing. As I said, when I was a Minister the only As a Minister for Health I was impressed by the direct contact I had with money was when I paid 2718 27l8COUNCIL]

20c for tea money. All other money was expended alluded. That is the point that members should re- on advice. Certainly I had a will of my own, but member we triggered. no money was expended directly by me. I suggest The H-on. R. G. PIKE: Dealing with the point seriously and genuinely that the traditions built made by Mr Gayfer, I repeat the point I made up to ensure that what I have suggested does not earlier so that it is not misunderstood. The fund happen, have been transgressed by this provision. was initially structured to spend up to $2 million a I do not know how it got past Cabinet, although year, and was structured in such a way that it I have seen funnier things get past it. I remember does not appear in any Statute. The advisory com- Cabinet decided that the price of haircuts should mittee is merely one to advise the Minister, and be increased from ls6d to 2s, and introduced a has worked very well for years. It is the system measure to that effect upon which we had to vote. under which the Hon. Graham MacKinnon In fact, the Cabinet has made mistakes, and I worked when he was the Minister for Cultural suggest this provision is such a mistake. The Min- Affairs and Recreation. ister ought to give more serious thought to this It is my intention to structure the advisory com- provision and take it back to the Cabinet while he mittee in a similar way. Perhaps as the Hon. Tom has a talk with somebody about it. McNeil suggested, the Western Australian Foot- I am most genuine in the remarks I make; I ball League should be represented, and it is know how easy it is to make a little but fatal slip proper that it be represented. I support a return to that can lead not only to a person's loss of position ministerial authority; I happen to think that it is and status, but also to quite unwarranted distress. not unreasonable, and that is why the structure of The clause in its present form could lead in that the advisory committee is not mentioned in the direction. I am quite sure Mr Baxter would agree Bill. Frankly, I do not think a necessity exists for with me. it to be so included. The Hon. H. W. GAYFER: I think the purport The Hon. Tom McNeil referred to the amount of the debate has been lost somewhere. I heard, of pressure that could come upon the Minister. and I am sure Mr Baxter heard, the Minister say That is no different from the situation in which he earlier this evening, that after consultation with would find himself in regard to the community the proposed committee certain things would take sporting and recreational facilities fund under the place. Mr Baxter raised the issue that no mention present grants structure. has been made in the legislation of the formation The points made by the Hon. Graham of such a committee; it is as simple as that. Some MacKinnon in reply to the Hon. Phil Pendal are discussion took place and the idea of a committee those which he had made previously, but did so being an advantage loomed up, and reached the with greater emphasis. He made the point that proportion of being the matter we are now con- the Cabinet has decided on this matter, and even sidering. If the Minister checks the speech he though I happen to be a Minister of only seven made earlier this evening I am sure he will find months, my view was shared by the Cabinet. his reference to advice he could take from an ad- The Hon. N. E. BAXTER: I am quite within visory committee. However, such an advisory my rights to rise again, and I do so to express my committee does not exist, and provision for its sincere concern, my grave concern, in relation to existence is not made in the Bill, Or any other this matter. The Hon. Graham MacKinnon measure that has come before the Chamber. This referred to how Ministers can spend money. The is the point I know Mr Baxter was debating. greatest restrictions are applied to Ministers when Mr Pendal said he doubted whether Mr the expenditure of money is involved. When I was Baxter's idea was any good, but Mr Baxter was Minister for Health a scheme was introduced to not debating the necessity for such an advisory assist physically incapacitated people so they committee. The Minister said he would talk with could be transferred from hospitals to their homes an advisory committee, but we do not know who where they could get around. In one instance we will comprise such a committee, and certainly it is provided funds for the installation of a lift in a not mentioned in the Bill. What gives? What is it two-storey dwelling. The incapacitated person all about? could not get up the stairs, and the wheelchair I agree with some of the sentiments of the Hon. could not be carried up the stairs. Graham MacKinnon and the Hon. Tom McNeil The Minister was allowed to spend up to $2 000 that a committee could well be needed, but that on any one person, but tonight we have heard this was not Mr Baxter's argument. His question re- Minister say that he will be able to spend up to lated purely to who comprised the committee to $10 000 on any one organisation under this rec- which the Minister only an hour-and-a-half ago reation scheme. That is a big sum of money, and [Tuesday, 14 September 1982J171 2719 we should not forget that although the limit of the I will draw another analogy: The Minister for fund is at present 52 million, it is estimated that Education does not have a statutory body to help next year it will be 52.5 million, and as the years him decide on the distribution of roughly 5530 go on it will undoubtedly increase from $2.5 million a year for education. His ultimate adviser million to $3 million to $4 million, etc.-the fund is the Director General of Education. The Direc- will reach huge proportions. tor General of Education and a host of other sec- The Minister will be faced with the problem of (tonal heads, are the people who recommend to a doling out this money. I am sure as the fund in- Minister that money be spent on certain schools creases in size, greater demands will be made by throughout the year which, incidentally, is as organisations such as the WA Football League. open to any possibility of corruption as that That is as certain as that I stand here. We are suggested earlier by the Hon. Graham aware of the attitude of that organisation towards MacKinnon. obtaining money. It is absurd to be getting terribly upset in this The Bill does not commit the Minister to con- place about the disbursement of $1 million, $2 sult anybody in any way at all. The clause states million, or $3 million annually in sport and cul- that the Minister "may" decide on the purpose of tural affairs grants when in the same Parliament distributing, but he does not need to consult any- we tend not to put a great deal of store on the fact body. He can decide that he loves football and that the Minister for Education is handling $500 that he will provide $1 million for that sport,' but million or 5600 million annually for the Edu- that soccer should receive only $250 000. This cation budget. He does that, I repeat, on the ad- Minister is putting himself in a dangerous and vice of the Director General of Education. invidious position, he is creating a precedent for It has been pointed out already that in this case Ministers who follow' him. Is there any harm in the Minister for Cultural Affairs and Recreation the Government's further considering this matter will be relying on the advice of people in those de- and deciding that a statutory committee be ap- partments as already happens in the Department pointed to advise the Minister? of Education. Frankly, it seems to me that the We must look at sport and see how much each people who are expressing concern about this. al- sport requires and how much will be allocated to beit, I accept in a genuine way, perhaps ought to it. The Minister cannot do that on his own with- be expressing concern in respect of where the real out a statutory advisory committee which explores money is spent in this State rather than tackling the whole situation deeply and advises, him how the position of a certain Bill that will disburse at the most $3 million in any year. much should be allocated to each sport. If I were a Minister, I would be horrified if I were handed The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I will not the responsibility of allocating money without answer Mr Pendal's comments. I was Minister for safeguards of this nature, and I suggest to the Education and I know what that entails, but I Minister in a very kind way for his own protection suggest to him, also in a very kind way, that he that in everybody's interest the best thing for him see Mr Clarko and asks him if he can have a look to do is to have a statutory committee. at the budget proposals and safeguards built into them. I want to pick up an idea that was put in I am not trying to stir up a problem. Perhaps I my mind by Mr Pendal when he suggested that do not express myself very well, but I am doing this Bill makes the Minister responsible to Parlia- this in a kind way to advise the Minister and the ment. I think that is a First-class idea. I have Government that they are making a mistake and always been a great believer in the responsibility that they should have a second look at it. At this of Ministers and I suggest to the Minister that a stage I advise the Minister to report progress on simple way out of what I consider to be his this clause and to talk to the Government, his de- dilemma-which he does not accept, by the way; partment and the Crown Law draftsmen and see I wish I had accepted the advice of a few people whether something can be done about this clause. who had told me the same thing during the latter The Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I was more than stages of my term as Minister for Education-is happy when I resumed my seat the last time to for him to consider a simple amendment to the ef- listen to the advice given by older and more ex- fect that no matter from where he gets his advice perienced members of Parliament in the hope that with regard to the allocation of funds, he must I could learn that the position I took 10 minutes table it and make himself responsible to Parlia- ago was somewhat inaccurate; but everything I ment. He should table the advice before the distri- have heard since then only confirms my original bution of the funds so that members of Parlia- fear about what those speakers had to say. ment can accept that he is a responsible Minister 2720 2720(COUNCIL] and they can consider what he proposes to do with Minister is ill-served by his friends and at this funds he has to distribute. stage is better served by his critics. This idea was implanted in my mind by the The Hon. P. G. Pendal: That is a stupid remark Hon. Phillip Pendal when he was talking earlier to make. Little Sir Echo for a change! and I want to give him full credit for originating The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (The Hon. I. G. the idea because it is a good one. So far as I am Pratt): Order! concerned, it would overcome any problems that I The Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: Am see with this legislation and it would remove any I to understand by the member's interjection that political chicanery if, by some unfortunate he is not a friend of the Minister? In which case I chance, we happen to find the Labor Party in will accept that and say that the Minister is per- Government. haps ill-served by the people who are ostensibly The Hon. N. E. BAXTER: I go along with defending him. Perhaps the honourable gentleman what the Hon. Graham MacKinnon said in a kind would prefer that remark. manner to the Hon. Mr P. G. Pendal and suggest The point I got up to make has already been that not only does he go to the Minister for Edut- made by Mr Baxter, but we cannot compare the cation (Mr Clarko) and examine and talk to him budget of a ministerial department, which has to about his budgets, but that he also go to the Min- be drawn up, presented and must appear in the ister for Health who has a budget of approxi- Estimates, and which does not give the Minister a mately S300 million, and has a Jook at that Minis- lot of discretion, with the kind of thing that is ter's budgets, including the capital expenditure being discussed by the clause which gives the budget. Two different budgets must be vetted by Minister discretion to allocate funds between cli- Treasury before the Minister for Health can ent groups. This clause gives the Minister patron- spend a penny. age at his discretion. He can play favourites if he wants to. Very little of the Minister's funds cannot be ex- pended at will. There is a certain small fund in re- I resented the remark made by the Hon. spct of which he cannot do this. Treasury does Graham MacKinnon about a future Labor Minis- not have to examine every penny, but it eventually ter, which was a touch of his old style that we oversees all expenditure and if the Minister have, mercifully, had very little of late, and I hope overspends or there is anything wrong, it will we do not have too much more of it in the future. jump on his big toe very hard. Talk like that is ab- The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Come on! solutely wrong, because what we are discussing The Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: Per- tonight has no bearing on Ministers' budgets or haps he was doing a typical psychological what they spend. A Minister cannot spend willy- transference from the Ministers of this Govern- nilly. ment to the Ministers of the future Government. The Hon. P. G. Pendal: It sounds like they The Minister would do well to ignore the kind of can't do anything. defence that Mr Pendal made because it has no relationship at all to anything in this clause. If the The Hon, N, E. BAXTER: They have expendi - Minister is going to deal with arguments, he ture limitations. The Minister must go to Cabinet. should deal with those that have been put. If he wants more money from Treasury he has to fight hard to get that extra money. As Mr As a matter of fact, I am not terribly annoyed with the Hon. Graham MacKinnon. I thought his MacKinnon and I know, in Cabinet other Minis- ters can be envious of big budgets and they try to suggestion that the Minister might table his allo- cation of funds so that Parliament could in fact get some of one's money, which makes one claw inspect it and the Minister become responsible to like anything to hold on to it. It is also subject to Parliament, was a good one. Obviously, the Min- examination. The original budget is submitted ister because of his past associations' does not and chopped down by Treasury and then when want to go hunting the QASO, but wants to have one is in Cabinet one has no chance of spending a some independence;, and if he wants to do that, he large sum of money without a close examination. should do what he has said about QASOS in the Let us have a close look at it and protect not only past and make himself responsible to this Parlia- the Minister of today, but the Ministers of the ment. Perhaps he should consider the remarks future. that were made in such a kindly manner by the The I-on. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: I am two gentlemen who have made some criticisms of brought to my feet by the odd and specious argu- this clause of the Bill and perhaps he should re- ments presented by the Hon. Mr Pendal, in which port progress and think about it, because it seems he drew a false analogy. It seems to me that the to me that his gentle critics seem to have an argu- [Tuesday, 14 September 19821 222721 ment and his defenders seem to have nothing ger- The Hon. R. G. PIKE: The same measures will mane to say 10 this clause at all. be implemented as those that exist in relation to Clause put and passed. lotteries in this State at present. I am told that in So'uth Australia, Victoria, and Tasmania there Clause 9 put and passed. are no problems regarding breaches of regulations Clause 10: Sections WOA and 10B inserted- in regard to these tickets by juveniles, It simply The Hon. GARRY KELLY: Can the Minister does not happen. say where the tickets for the instant lottery will Clause put and passed. come from and who will supply them? Will the Clauses I I to 13 put and passed. tickets be printed in Western Australia as is the case with normal lotteries? 1 understand the Schedule put and passed. tickets used for the instant lottery require a Title put and passed. special process. The Hon. R. G. PIKE: I thank the Hon. Carry Report Kelly for his question. The answer is that there is Bill reported, without amendment, and the re- a patent on the system of printing tickets, which port adopted. deals with the peculiar surface quality of the paper which is manufactured so that the surface COAL MINE WORKERS (PENSIONS) cannot be peeled off the paper, nor can it be held AMENDMENT BILL up to the light and what is on it read. The conse- Second Reading quence of that decision is that the tickets initially will be printed in South Australia by a printing TilE HON. I. Q. MEIJCALF (Metro- firm that presently prints tickets for South Aus- politan-Leader of the House) [8.17 p.m.]: I tralia, Tasmania and Melbourne and will be move- printing instant lottery tickets for the New South That the Bill be now read a second time. Wales Government which is introducing an in- This Bill is for the purpose of introducing early stant lottery that will commence at the end of this retirement into the coalmining industry and al- yea r. lowing administrative personnel to use their ex- Being mindful of the necessity for this business pertise in the industry beyond the now compulsory to come to Western Australia, I have asked the retiring age of 60 years. Lotteries Commission to negotiate with the fran- The arduous nature of the work in the chise holders of the patent With a view to having coalmining industry was acknowledged in 1943 the tickets printed in Western Australia as soon with the introduction of a 60-year compulsory re- as possible. Therefore, the answer to the mem- tirement scheme and, although over the years ber's question is that negotiations are presently mechanisation has reduced the manual effort, the taking place. duties of a coalrniner are still quite demanding. It is hoped the holder of the franchise will agree This Bill is designed to meet the needs of the with the transfer of that franchise in relation to coalmining industry today by introducing 58-year the production of tickets in WA in the future. optional retirement for mineworkers and allowing The Hon. GARRY KELLY: Could the Minis- those persons eligible to be a member of the As- ter tell the Chamber whether the company which sociation of Colliery Management or covered by will lease the franchise to the Australian company division "A" of the colliery staff award 1955, the has any association with the Sally Corporation in added option, with the agreement of the colliery, America? to extend their working life to 62 years. The Hon. R. G. PIKE: As far as I understand I commend the Bill to the House. the answer is "No."~ However, I inform the mem- Debate adjourned, on motion by the Hon. R. T. ber that I have issued an instruction that under no Leeson. circumstance are any negotiations to take place with the Sally Corporation which as members BULK HANDLING AMENDMENT BILL know is alleged to have Maria connections in the United States. Second Reading The Hon. P. H. WELLS: I ask the Minister: Debate resumed from 17 August. What measures have been taken to ensure that THE HON. J. M. BROWN (South-East) [8.20 the lotteries will not be available to juveniles and p.m.]: It seems to have taken quite some time to will not in any way encourage gambling among get this bottom-of-the-harbour legislation to the juveniles? second reading debate stage. It is a very remark- 06a) 2722 2722COUNCIL] able amendment to section 13 of the Bulk Hand- favourable seasonal conditions, without opening ling Act, which is an Act to improve the pro- up further land. visions for the handling of grain by the company The abuse that has taken place in regard to our registered as Co-operative Bulk Handling Ltd., land has been the subject of considerable debate and for incidental and other purposes. This Is in respect of the Soil Conservation Act. Members exactly what CBH does in relation to grain. The spoke at length on land utilisation and considered Act is explicit and this amendment to it is Very that what was taking place was alarming and that minor and will allow the company to purchase 40 the disappearance of farmers was of great concern per cent or two-fifths of the shareholding instead to the welfare of our State. If the number of pro- this would ap- of one-Fifth, and to any observer ducers is dwindling, naturally it will have a snow- pear to be a simple amendment. balling effect on rural communities. However, when I consider the import of the We have witnessed a decline in the population amendment in relation to grain growing in West- of country areas and we have witnessed the deni- ern Australia it is my opinion and, indeed, the gration of our land. We should encourage the ALP's opinion, that it is an ominous message to young farmer, the families of farmers, the share the primary producers. The number of farmer shareholders of CBH in the State of Western farmers and the students from agricultural col- part in our farming in- Australia is 11 749. Those shareholders, through leges to take a more active their activities, deliver wheat, lupin, sorghum, lin- dustry. We will'certainly not attain that success seed, rapeseed, oats and barley through the CBH by giving the go-ahead to a Bill such as this. facilities. Because CBH is their handling agent The object of the amendment on the notice they are entitled to a shareholding of the company paper is that it is not necessary to have the re- from the proceeds they receive from the grain strict ion of 40 per cen t; it could be any f igure. I n they deliver-a $2 shareholding is their en- the first instance I thought that the amendment titlement. was quite sound but if in the future we have to A grower is described in the parent Act as fol- have another Bill to regularise section 13 of the lows- Act, we have not been doing our job. " grower" includes the legal personal rep- It would be natural for anyone to ask: What are resentative of a deceased person, a trustee, we going to do to stop the deterioration of our the liquidator of a company. a person entitled land and the "get big or get out' syndrome? The to a share of a crop, under a share farming Government had an excellent opportunity to act agreement, and a corporation, organisation w hen the A MP Society sol d la rge t racts of land i n or body delivering grain to the Company; the north of the State to a couple of gentlemen-I A corporation or partnership is treated as a single cannot recall their names but one of'themn came grower or shareholder and it is in this sense that I from Claremont and was an entrepreneur in the consider the amendment is ominous as far as the business and he subsequently sold the land to sev- grain growing industry in Western Australia is eral other farm investors within the industry. I be- concerned. lieve that was a chance for the Government to negotiate with a firm like the AMP Society, In 1960 we went through the syndrome of which owns large tracts of land throughout Aus- farmers either becoming big or getting out. A and from time to time, depending on activi- large development programme took place at that tralia management and marketeers, decides to time to open new lands, in each case equivalent to ties of one millioii acres, or 400 000 hectares. Today, sell land. there is still a demand for the opening up of new Another area of concern is the large tracts of land. In less than a decade we have lost 10 per land about to be released in the Esperance region. cent of the shareholders-or as I consider it, 10 Those people who received allocations of land in per cent of our farmers. We should look at this effect are receiving a bonuis from the State. In my academically and clinically and decide which way opinion, those who wish to leave the land should we are heading. be compensated at market value for the land and The message in the amendment to this Act is a improvements. However, there must be a way in timely warning to members in this Chamber to which we can preserve the land for future gener- act to safeguard our country and the farming in- ations of young farmers, rather than having such dustry and to look at what is happening to our holdings swallowed up, not necessarily by neigh- land. I am of the opinion that we are quite com- bours but by overseas corporations. petent to grow the volumes of grain required in We have all read the publicity surrounding the existing areas under cultivation, subject to foreign ownership of Western Australian land. As [Tuesday, 14 September 1982J 272372

recently as 10 September, The West Australian than $3 a tonne, and the producers of the State contained a report in the following terms- knew their welfare was being protected in Parlia- The WA Government expects a report men t. soon on ways of controlling overseas As the Minister responsible for the legislation, ownership of State land. the Hon D. J. Wordsworth replied to the debate. An interdepartmental committee is His remarks appear at page 166$ of H-ansard of nearing the end of its task since beginning Thursday, 7 May 19S9. He made the following the study last January. statement, with which I am sure we would all agree- That report has serious consequences for the farming industry, as well as the cities and towns I believe this is all tied up with the matter of our State, and is another area which can be of CBH being a monopoly, as Mr Gayfer investigated. quite rightly said. Not only has CBH a mon- opoly, but also the Australian Wheat Board I am gravely concerned at what is happening in has a monopoly. Those monopolies have oc- regard to land use, and the disappearance of the curred entirely at the choice of the growers. family farm; that is why this matter is of such im- portance to the people of Western Australia. in Various committees have considered this May 1981 we saw the introduction of the Bulk problem. The most notable of those com- Handling Amendment Bill, the predecessor of this mittees was the Rae committee, which Bill. At that time, a concerned debate took place pointed out various shortcomings with these about the operations of Co-operative Bulk Hand- sorts of monopoly organisations. ling Ltd., about the introduction of varietal con- That comment is a source of concern to me. I trol, and about the penalties then being paid by happened to be at a meeting of growers at which producers in this State. Senator Rae was told in no uncertain terms what I have not travelled widely. However, with the the farmers thought of his investigations into the Hon. Fred McKenzie, I had the opportunity to activities of the Australian Wheat Board. He look at the grain-growing industry of China, and went away with the clear message that while the flour mills of Peking. I am sure my colleagues there may have been shortcomings in the board's would confirm the industrious nature of the operations, the growers were very satisfied with Chinese. We were greeted with a large notice the representation they received and with the way board which contained the message, "Welcome to the board conducted its affairs. our Australian friends" printed in both Chinese I believe that if we attended any meeting of and English. Indeed, they expected a shipment of growers today, the same sentiments would be ex- Australian grain within the next 10 days. pressed about CBH. Some 100 farmers must have As I said, we took the opportunity to look at attended the field day at Leon Riley's property at their industry. If any member has any fears about Trayning; they came from many areas of the our grain quality, I suggest he look at the quality State, as well as from the University of Western of grain put through the mills of Peking to make Australia. I was rather surprised at the volatile flour. I do not wish to denigrate their industry; it response of growers in favour of the preservation is the way the grain is produced. They must cut of the monopoly of the Australian Wheat Board. and stalk the grain. They dry it by the roadside Of course, I know that the board's efforts were after they have thrashed it out either by hand or most beneficial to the wheat growers of Western by a system of rollers attached to motor cycles. Australia; indeed, anyone who remembers what Naturally, the grain is pinched, stained, and happened in the past would support the conten- small;, there would be no comparison with our tion that the board was the best thing ever for the grain. The standards of our Western Australian orderly marketing of our grain. grain have improved year by year, and there is I have had ample opportunity to study this still demand for the quality to improve even amending legislation and the Act itself. The further. responsibilities of the company are clearly de- The debate of May 1981 also concerned the fined. in fact, the purpose of the Act is common quality of grain and the penalties which are ap- knowledge amongst growers. For a start, the plied against producers of grain in the drier areas company must insure the grain at its own expense. of this State. I still maintain those penalties are It must be a very good manager in this respect, not justified, and I will continue to fight for their because according to the latest balance sheet, this removal, particularly as they apply to growers in cost has reduced from over S800 000 to just under the eastern wheatbelt. However, the debate had 5600 000. It is true that buildings and assets do the result that the penalty would be no higher depreciate. However, I question why the figure 2724 2724[COUNCIL] was $654 000 in 1979, $803 000 in 1980, and one tonne of grain, and another shareholder may $593 000 in 198 1. Of course, it could be because deliver 10000 tonnes. It is worth looking at the further expansion has taken place; however, more number of directors. When we have a dwindling probably it is because favourable premiums have number of farmers, do we require 10 directors for been able to be negotiated on such a large volume the State? I ask that question, but I am not of assets. reflecting on the directors. I do not know which company insures these If one asked farmers to comment on the oper- assets, but it would be beneficial for CBH to take ations of CBH, they would be laudatory of its ac- advantage of the expertise of the State Govern- tivities. As I pointed out, it is a monopoly which ment Insurance Office. acts creditably, not only for the growers but also Section 12 of the Act provides that CBH must for the consumers or the clients in the long term. present a balance sheet and revenue account to It is noticeable that, under the Act, the Minis- the Minister, who shall cause a copy of both to be ter has unlimited powers as far as the operation of laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as CBH is concerned. He can demand that it estab- may be practicable after their receipt. This pro- lish new buildings or storages, alter inadequate vision has always been complied with, and I have facilities, and keep its bins in good condition. had the opportunity to peruse the balance sheets Facilities have to be provided when the Minister for the last two years so that my observations may so requires. Probably that has never happened; be backed by facts rather than by hearsay. but certainly the Minister has unlimited powers It is important to appreciate the activities of under the Act. CBH, and its future within the grain-growing in- I do not know whether any members of the dustry of this State. Clause 2 of the Bill seeks to House realise that the Bulk Handling Act pro- amend section 13, which relates to the power of vides that in addition to the Board of Directors of the company to purchase shares. I am not con- CR8, a shippers' delivery board is constituted. In cerned so much that the company has been acting a very important provision, the Act says that the illegally in purchasing more than the maximum members of the board are not entitled to any re- percentage of shares; rather, I am concerned muneration for their services as such. That is in about where our farmers are going. Large tracts clause 28. of land have been thrown open, and even more The Hon. W. Mv.Piesse: The Bill does not have land is to be released, yet we are losing people 28 clauses. from the country areas hand over fist. The Hon. J. M. BROWN: They certainly have I am also concerned about the operations of the a great responsibility. The members of the board company, where it is heading, and its responsi- shall be the Commissioner of Railways or his to Parliament and to the growers. bility nominee, a person appointed by the Governor to Section 17 of the Act relates to the calling of represent the various port authorities, a person polls in respect of vacancies; a penalty of $40 is elected in the prescribed manner by the mer- provided for any breach of this section. At pres- chants operating, and a person appointed by the ent, the company is calling for a poll on two company. The members of the board shall elect vacancies which have occurred-I do not refer to one of their number as chairman. casual vacancies-in respect of district No. 7, for The Hon. R. J. L. Williams: Are you talking whom the candidate is Mr H-. W. Gayfer, and for about the Act? district No. 10, the candidate being Mr H. M. Browning. I took the opportunity to telephone The Hon. J. M. BROWN: Yes, I am talking CBH and ask the returning officer (Mr R. F. about the Act. The amending Bill is only a very Howell) the areas of the two districts concerned, small one. the term of the appointments, and the terms of The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth; It does not give Mr Howell's appointment. Mr Howell was most you much to talk about. obliging and gave me the information 1 required. I The Hon. J1.M. BROWN: I am talking about was informed the positions were for Five-year CR8 and the implications of this amendment. terms, and that Mr Howell was appointed re- This Bill means a great deal to the people of turning officer by resolution of the board. Western Australia, and yet some members look at He told me the board has 10 members. That my contribution whimsically, and question raises the question of whether there is one-vote- whether I have the right to present my comments one-value within the operations of Co-operative on it. However, the measure has far-reaching ef- Bulk Handling Ltd. as far as the shareholders are fects on the operations of the company and the concerned, because one shareholder may deliver State. I am exercising my responsibility to draw (Tuesday, 14 September 1982] 272572 to the attention of the House what CBH does, tains a foreword by the Chairman of Directors, what it means, and what I believe should be de- one Har ry W. Gayfer. It contains the general bated in the Parliament. manager's report also. Great charges arc made on the country people, I direct the attention of the House to the latest and this House lays down how much they should report- be. Sometimes the charges ought to be reviewed. The PRESIDENT: Order! I have been listening As a result of my investigations, I have many to the honourable member with a great deal of more comments to make, and I will put them as I interest. I have been endeavouring to connect his see best in my presentation to the Bill which is to comments with the proposition in the Bill before amend section 13 of the Bulk Handling Act. the House. With respct, I suggest to him that I The wheat foundation toil cannot exceed $2.94 am finding it extraordinarily difficult to relate per tonne-. and the port equipment toll cannot ex- what he has been saying, and what he is about to ceed 73c per tonne. The Act provides the amount embark on in referring to the latest report, to the that may be charged in relation to any other seed, proposition to amend section 13 of the Act. Per- and also a special object charge. That is limited to haps the honourable member can tic his com- 75c per tonne, and it cannot be imposed unless the ments in to the effect that the amendment to sec- company does several things. The company has to tion 13 will have. if he can, I would be very grate- call an election in each district from which a di- ful. rector is elected, and the Act provides also for the The Hon. i. M. BROWN: Certainly. It should rights of the shareholders in this regard. be remembered that section 13 refers to the share- It is fair to mention the importance of the Skel- holders of CBH. I appreciate the point you have eton Weed and Resistant Grain Insects made, Sir; but you are not greatly associated with (Eradication Funds) Act of 1974 in which CBH is the grain growing industry and the importance of called upon to be the collector of revenue. Some- CBH. Many people can work for aii organisation times the directors may feel that this is an impo- and still not know what takes place in that organ- sition on them, but every grower has agreed to isation. that collection. CBH is certainly a tax collecting The Hon. 0. E. Masters: 1 would stop there. firm, if one considers what the principal Act re- You are getting in deep. quires. The Hon. J. M. BROWN: I am saying this According to the legislative requirements. CBH quite sincerely, because I do not believe that this shall receive all grain that is tendered in bulk. It is a matter for frivolity. It is a matter of grave has no alternative. It has to do that under the Act. concern to the State of Western Australia. I am However, an important matter is that under sec- talking about the shareholders. This Bill will tion 42(2)(b) it is not obliged to receive any grain allow a decrease in the number of shareholders except at a reasonably convenient time and at a because of the decrease in the number of farmers place nominated by it. Unless the Minister so di- in Western Australia who deliver to a CBI- rects, it is not obliged to accept grain which has facility. been transported more than 100 kilometres by The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: Mr Dowding road. That is a matter of concern to CBH, and I might take a point of order on you, you know. shall refer to that in a few moments. The Hon. J. M. BROWN: This is a serious As far as the Act is concerned, I want to say matter, and it should be canvassed well and truly. finally that the Treasurer may, for and on behalf When I am talking about the operations of CBK, of the Crown in the right of the State, advance I am referring to the shareholders and what is to moneys for facilities operated by the eompany. happen. This matter is causing some concern We have seen that happening already. The among the shareholders. Perhaps this is the Government extended a guarantee to CBH in re- reason that they are leaving the industry and the lation to the terminal at Kwinana which is of such reason that costs are escalating all the time. It is importance to the export of grain from our State. not easy to refer to the amendment without com- I do not want to miss several points regarding menting on the effect on CBH. That is my belief CBH. I referred to the report of the general man- of what will be the effect of the application of the ager which is produced at approximately the same amending Bill and the Act. time as the financial statement. That is sent to Rail transport might be one of the reasons. A every grower in the State. In a concise booklet, three-year contract for freight rates has been let. the facts of the operations of CBH are pointed The rates did not go down; they went up. This out. There is no reason that a grower should not might be one of the reasons the shareholders are be aware of what is happening. The booklet con- disappearing, because the farms in the outer re- 2726 2726(COUNCIL] gions are becoming bigger and only a few farms 1 do not think anyone would question his ability. are left. The landholders have large areas of land. The same applies to the confidence in Sir Leslie The conflict between the Primary Industry As- Price. sociation and the Minister for Transport is indi- But our concern is mainly with section 13 of the cated by the following- principal Act which we are amending so as to in- The Primary Industry Association's grains crease the company's shareholding from 20 per section president, Mr Flugge and his associ- cent or one-fifth to 40 per cent or tw'o-fifths, In no ation needed to face up to realities on the way does it reflect on the activity of CBH. grain wagons issue, the Deputy Premier and The Minister in his second reading speech said Minister for Transport. Mr Cyril Rushton, that the number of shares held by CBI-( has now said last week. increased to the point where the value slightly ex- He said that it was an emotional problem as fa r ceeds the 20 per cent of paid-up capital. The fig- as grain handling was concerned. A timely re- ure of 2 875 represents 20 pe r cen t of the 11 749 minder is contained in the general manager's re- shareholdings and CBH exceeds that number by port as follows- 885, giving it a total of 3 760 shares. That needs We are continually emphasising to to be considered. Westrail that the programme of wagon re- The company has to watch its expenditure in placement needs to be accelerated, both in the interests of the shareholders. I should mention the interests of containing our costs and also the importance of the staff who operate in maintaining industrial relations harmony. this State. In the off-season CBH has 1 182 per- The time could come when staff will refuse manent staff to serve 11 749 shareholdings. In the to unload these old and unacceptable wagons. peak season it has 1 774 staff which is just under Now, that is the Primary Industry Association 600 extra, and this demonstrates a commendable against the Minister for Transport. I could elabor- effort on the part of the staff. ate on that, but I do not believe it would have any While the company is worried about cost in- effect on the Bill. However, it is a cause of con- cern, just the same as the shareholders are con- creases and rising wages, I notice that the direc- cerned about being regimented as to where their tars received an increase in their fees and expen- grain deliveries should take place, and whether diture, which was probably well and truly they can deliver direct to the port. justified; however, their fees increased from $49 598 to $86 149. That is not an insignificant 1 add that we should In my wards of warning amount, and there may be good reasons for it; but consider the freight charges to the outer regions. it does represent a concern among the share- That could be one of the reasons the farmers are holders of CBH as they consider the future of the disappearing. We should do something about that. farming industry when such legislation is I represent Bullfinch, which is probably one of the centres in the State with the highest charges. Is introduced. one of the reasons for the disappearnce of farmers There is no way that the members of the Oppo- the fact that they are required to pay $20.80 per sition will support the amendment on the notice tonne for their freight deliveries? paper unless arguments in support of it can con- Another matter of considerable concern is the vince us to do so. if we allow CB3H to have a 40 restriction in section 42 (2) (b) of the 100-kilo- per cent shareholding we are not doing our job as metre rail delivery which has caused a great deal legislators. of strain an the directors and management of The reason I have undertaken so much CBH. This prevents farmers from delivering their investigation and reseach into the Act covering grain direct to the ports because of the orderly de- CBH is that unless members of the farming com- livery arrangements. CBH has had to build bulk munity wholeheartedly support it and do not en- installations which may not be used to their deavour to bypass the system, they may abuse the fullest. That may be another reason we are losing system and create friction between the growers our farmers, but I do not think it is. I have themselves and the transport organisation, and in- already explained the reasons that farmers are crease the costs to CBH. If we all hop in behind leaving the industry. CBH there would be lower charges, as was the The Chairman of CBH sends out a news brief ease in 198 1-82 when compared with grain hand- to shareholders. He has accepted an invitation to ling charges in 1980-8I. This is important in chair day 2 of a two-day international conference times of rising prices. CBH has a great job to do on grain, to be held in London. That is quite a this year on behalf of its shareholders. While distinction and it is a commendation of his ability. there are areas of stress in this State I think CBH [Tuesday, 14 September 1982] 222727 will exceed its tonnage of last year if we receive should consider a bonus issue to get rid of all the reasonable finishing rains. extra shares. It amounts to the same thing. I We have to be the watchdog in this situation. I wholeheartedly support this amending Bill. would not be doing my job for my constituents or THE HON. H. W. CAYFER (Central) [9.11 for all the people of Western Australia for that p.mn.]: It has been extremely interesting to hear matter if I did not mention my concern at the dis- honourable members speaking to this Bill as I am appearance of the family farm. The family farm sure it will be when the Minister rises to his feet. I makes a great contribution to the economy of our commend the thought and work done by the Hon. State and to the welfare and social life of country Mr Brown and I am sure, Mr Deputy President communities;, it does so possibly more than any (the H-on. V. J1.Ferry), that you will allow me the other single concept in the country. same freedom allowed Mr Brown so that I may I warn members that this is a serious amend- refer to several matters he raised. He commented ment we are regularising and one that will have a in a most sincere manner and for that reason I severe consequence on the people of this State if will comment on one or two matters in answer to this trend continues. I support the second reading his questions. of the Bill. Firstly, dealing with the shares, at the present THE HON. TOM McNEIL (Upper West) time CBH's nominal share capital is 100 000 [9.08 p.mn.]: I support the intent of the Bill. I shares at $2 each. Basically, we have to remember think everyone recognises that this is retrospective that is the shareholding of the capital. Members legislation in regard to CBH's performance and I should know that 15 509 of these shares were see nothing sinister in the fact that we will legal- issued up to 31 October 1969, This followed all ise the proportion of shares it now holds which, the rush, turbulence and high pace of wheat grow- according to the Act, should be no more than 20 ing at the time With many people coming into the per cent of the total shares. industry. It is a requisite of the Act that when I have an amendment on the notice paper people deliver grain to the installations they which I will introduce during the Committee should be accorded a shareholding. Since 1969 stage, but I do consider that the intent of the Bill there has been a steady decline in the number of represents a need for this legislation. The Bill has growers recorded as delivering grain to the my support. company due mainly, as Mr Brown rightfully said, to the amalgamation and consolidation of THE HON. D. .1. WORDSWORTH (South) farm holdings. As a result, at 30 October 1981, [9.09 p.m.]: I shall speak briefly on the chief pur- the end of CBH's financial year, the company pose for this amending Bill, which is to allow found itself holding 3 760 shares. Under the Bulk CBH to buy back its own shares. It is a very good Handling Act and the company's articles of as- principle and should be supported. sociation, it is permitted to hold 20 per cent of its I happen to be a shareholder in a dairy co-op- share capital, which was equal to 3 102 shares. erative in Tasmania. At the age of 16 1 milked a When the company's holdings first exceeded cow and sent away a miner's quart pot of cream to the local butter factory which was a co-op- the permissible limit the matter was reported to erative, and later the first cheque came to me as a the relevant authority and it was suggested that shareholder. I have had two shares in that the Bulk Handling Act be amended as the company ever since and there is no way in which I company at the time was holding 3 486 shares. can get rid of them; unfortunately, the company The company was advised that due to the vol- does not have provisions allowing me to do so. It ume of legislation before the Parliament at the has to keep me as a shareholder presumably until time the matter should be deferred because it was I am dead-ven then I am not sure what it will only a machinery problem in the Act. Sub- do with the shares. I have received various divi- sequently, in the years from 1931 to 1981 the dends from the company which have ranged from number of shares held by the company increased 6d to 2s 6d& It seems it cannot cast me away and to 3 760. The matter was raised again and a letter goodness knows what it costs the company to keep was written to the Department of Agriculture. As me as a shareholder. so many questions have been raised on this mat- The Act covering the operations of CBH make ter, I would like to read that letter to members to it clear that once a person is no longer a grain illustrate the attitude of the company. The letter grower he cannot be a shareholder in the was sent on 17 June 1982 and stated as follows- company. That is a sensible provision and it The Company is experiencing difficulty in should remain. I do not know whether there is any complying with the requirements of Section way around this or whether perhaps Mr Gayfer 13 of the Bulk Handling Act 1961-1981 2728 2728[COUNCIL]

which limits the number of its own shares Shareholders of the Company. As a result which the Company as a co-operative may the shareholding of active growers has hold. The following sets out the position and reduced and the shares held by the Company it would be appreciated if some action be now exceed the 20 'per cent allowed under taken to amend Section 13 to relieve the pos- Section I13of the Bulk Handling Act. ition. As the Company wishes to conform with Although Co-operative Bulk Handling the intent of the Act- Limited is registered under the Company's This is important and it is the reason that I will (Co-operative) Act 1943, as amended, there be opposing the Hon. Toth McNeil's amendment. are certain aspects of the Company's share To continue- structure which are overridden by the Bulk Handling Act 1967-198 1. -and the Company's Articles of Association that only active growers participate in the Section 174 of the Company's (Co-op- affairs of the Company it would be erative) Act provides that a Co-operative appreciated if consideration could be given Company may purchase out of its reserve amending the Bulk Handling Act to increase funds any shares of a member of the the percentage of the Company's capital Company but the shares so purchased, and which may be held by the Company from 20 held, by the Company at any one time shall per cent as-provided in Section 13 to 40 per not exceed 5 per cent of its total paid up cent. capital. Although the company's articles of association Section 13 of the Bulk Handling Act provide for the company to hold 20 per cent of the specifically overrides the above provision and shares, an amendment to the Act to increase the allows the Company to purchase and hold, at company's holding to 40 per cent would over-rule any one time, shares equivalent in value to020 the company's articles of association. While there per cent of the paid up capital of the is no need for an immediate amendment to the Company. articles, this could be done at some future time, Section 31 (6) of the Bulk Handling Act by direction from the shareholders, if the provides that out of the Foundation Toll col- company so wished. There is no need to do that lections from each new growers first deliver- because the principal Act-the Bulk Handling ies the Company shall cause one fully paid Act-according to legal advice, overrides both the $2.00 share of its capital to be issued or Companies (Co-operative) Act and the articles of transferred to every grower. The Company's association. Articles provide that where a grower fails to The Hon. Jim Brown expressed concern about deliver for two (2) successive seasons (except where the company was headed. I think that because of drought, tire, flood or other un- could be best answered by referring to the amount toward happening to his crop) his member- ofl work done and the service the company has ship lapses and his share is bought fro him provided to its shareholders. Certainly the share- by the Company at its Cull face value and is holders are becoming less in number, but it is subsequently transferred to a new grower interesting to note the second last page of the who has qualified to become a Shareholder. 1981 report, which Mr Brown has, shows that in Thus only active growers are Shareholders 1931-32 when CBH first commenced receiving as a result the Company remains within and grain it received 31 000 tonnes. In 1934-35 it re- the control of those growers who have an ac- ceived 300 000 tonnes. If we consider 10-year tive interest in the grain industry. intervals until today, we will note the expansion in The single share held by each grower en- tonnages handled by the company. The tonnages ables him to vote for the election of Direc- have increased by approximately 100 per cent tors, attend Shareholders meetings of the every tO years. For example, in 1941 the company Company and vote on various matters in ac- handled 754 000 tonnes; in 1951 it handled 1.253 cordance with the Memorandum and Articles million tonnes; in 1961 it handled 1.93 million of Association of the Company. The share tonnes, and in 1971, 3.6 million tonnes. The can not be bought or sold by outside parties amount of grain handled in 1981-82 was ive and its monetary value remains at $2.00. million tonnes. That should answer the question: Because of changes in farm holdings in the Where is the company headed? I would say it is cereal growing areas there has, despite the beaded in the right direction, especially when we expansion of acreage sown, been a decrease consider it has been able to handle such terrific in the number of growers entitled to be increases in volume. The company has had a [Tuesday, 14 September 1982J 272972

lesser number of shareholders, but certainly a The Hon. Jim Brown said that the co-operative greater amount of work. has a monopoly on grains. The definition of "grain" The company has had to provide for tomorrow at the beginning of the Act refers to without knowing what is around the corner. It has wheat and barley. CBH has a monopoly on wheat not been able to afford to allow its shareholders to and barley, but not on all grains. be caught with their pants down at any time. I The Hon. J. NM.Brown: I read that from the agree with the Hon. Jim Brown that the company Act. and its directors have a responsibility to their The Hon. H. W. GAYFER: The member read shareholders, as indeed the Hon. Jim Brown has a "grains", he did not read the definition. responsibility to Parliament. Mr Brown mentioned tolls and said that the The Hon. Jim Brown said that with the foundation toll could be as much as $2.94 and the reduction in the number of shareholders the port equipment toll 73c. He may not know that company should perhaps look at the number of di- they were combined several years ago under the had rcctors. I was most intrigued when he said he Act. Perhaps it is not news to him because he to ring the company to ind out about the direc- mentioned that there has been a rather large tors and their districts. He said he did this after reduction. They have been reduced by the amount seeing an advertisement. He could have obtained of increase made previously. In other words, to that information from the same Co-operative use the parlance, the toll is back to 5c a Handling Ltd. report of 1981. The report Bulk bushel-where it was before. The shareholders shows the directors, their districts, and the decided that, in order to cater for the predictions sidings. of the future, the building should be increased to I would have thought that, being a shareholder such an extent that it could handle a possible in CBH, Mr Brown would have received a copy of eight million tonnes. the report. Possibly we are the only State which has ever The Hon. J. M'. Brown: I am a shareholder in a managed to reduce tolls in that manner. The new small family partnership. terminal at Albany is expected to be completed in The Hon. H. W. GAYFER: That was one of three years' time at a cost of about $25 million, the member's arguments: He said that more which could result in handling charges being a companies were involved. Perhaps they are little higher than they were last year. involved for the purposes of family ownership and The Hon. J. M. Brown: Would that be the case taxation- even if there were an increased tonnage? The Hon. J. M. Brown: You are confusing the The Hon. H. W. GAYFER: I do not know; issue. certainly, some areas of the State are not quite up The Hon. H. W. GAY FER: I am not at all. I to par; however, there is quite a time before the was just saying there was really no need to ring year ends. the company because every shareholder received a In addition to the $25 million which will be copy of the annual report. spent in Albany over the next two or three years, Mr Brown referred to the dwindling number of the company currently is spending £24 million on farmers and said that the number of directors buildings in other country areas; shortly, it will should be lessened. That is not a job for Parlia- release next year's building programme and the ment; it is for the shareholders to decide. There is charges which will meet this programme are to be no provision for the Parliament to specify the struck at a directors' meeting to be held in number of shareholders in a co-operative. Parlia- October, or as soon as crops are headed. ment has very little to do with the company ex- I agree with Mr Brown's comments that the cept in respect Of ius obligations under the Act, Bulk Handling Act in effect makes CBH the ve- and they do not relate to the formation of the co- hicle for collecting taxes, particularly the skeleton operative. weed levy. This is not a new matter; Mr Brown The co-operative has a responsibility to its will find that while I sympathise with the skeleton shareholders and its administration. The co-op- weed problem and with the imposition of the erative has a replaceable asset valuation in excess levy-l am not sure how else we could raise such of $700 million. an amount of money-on every occasion the mat- Whereas at one time the co-operative had live ter of the levy has been discussed, I have consist- directors, it now needs 10 directors to represent ently declared my opposition to the principle of the State fully. Believe me, they do represent the requiring CBH to be the vehicle by which the tax State and they are active in all their pursuits. is collected. I have always declared that the levy 2730 2730[COUNCIL] could be the foot in the door and could mean that numbered between 1 100 and I 200 and that in the Act could be used for other taxing measures. 1974, with the addition of temporary staff, the The Hon. J. M. Brown: I was also quick to add figure increased to I 800. Total employment has that the levy was accepted by the farmers. been known to go as high as 2 000, depending on the harvest and the ripening period throughout The Hon. H. W. GAYFER: Perhaps; however, the State and the need to staff the wheat bins, the shareholders, as distinct from all farmers, generally by way of university colleagues. some of whom do not deliver grain, are concerned that their Act could be used in such a way. Mr Brown also pointed to the fact that direc- tors' fees and expenses attributable to directors Mr Brown mentioned the requirement or the had increased. This is inevitable, and the share- company that wherever possible, all grain shall be holders have recommended such an increase. delivered in bulk. "All grain" includes wheat and However, I believe this is a matter for the share- barley; generally, the company endeavours to im- holders of the company to decide; it is hardly one plement this requirement. I do not intend to com- for this Parliament. I hope we will never get to ment on the report of the general manager. the stage where the Government interferes with Mr Brown mentioned also that the diminution the running of CBH. It is a private co-operative in the number of shareholders was due to the high working under its own Act. cost of rail freights, particularly to remote areas. I The Act provides that in respect of shares, am not too sure whether I can agree with him on certain things shall apply. It is the implication of that point; I do not know of any holdings which the word "shall" which is sought to be amended. I have gone out of business; perhaps individuals hope all members realise there is no ulterior mo- have sold, and left the industry. tive behind the company's request, The Hon. J. M. Brown: I said it could be; I was notwithstanding a report on the subject which ap- responding to a query by the President, who peared in the newspaper. I repeat that even if the wanted me to relate the comments I was making company were delivering grain on its own behalf, more closely to the Bill. That was one of the it could not use all the shares in its possession to points I made. give it a majority vote. If the company were pro- The Hon. H. W. GAYFER: Mr Brown said it ducing and were delivering grain, it could use only was a point which should be considered by Parlia- one share, because each grower shall receive only ment, and that was why he brought it forward. one share when he delivers grain, and be entitled The Government has considered this matter. In- to only one vote. deed, one of the vehicles it is using in an endeav- The Hon. Tom McNeil has an amendment on our to implement some equity in the matter of rail the notice paper, which I intend to oppose for the freight costs is its standing committee on rail following reasons- freight, which is due to meet within the next week. The achievements of this committee have The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the Hon. V. J. allayed a great deal of the fears of farmers in re- Ferry): Order! I appreciate the honourable mem- ber is trying to relate his remarks to the Bill; how- spect of rail freight charges. However, if rail freights are a reason for the reduction in the ever, the appropriate time to discuss the amend- ment is in the Committee stage. Perhaps the number of shareholders, I hope those fears will be allayed by the proposals which are being invoked, member can confine his remarks to the content of and the formula which has been adopted to date. the Bill. It may well be that, because of recent Federal ac- The Hon. H. W. GAYFER: That is fair tion, an effort is made to alter the agreement; that enough, Mr Deputy President. I do not believe the remains to be seen. I have no doubt the committee company would wish to move away from the ori- will find it an extremely interesting exercise be- ginal intent of the Act. I must say that I am fore it finishes with that matter. rather surprised at your direction, Mr Deputy Mr Brown also said CBH would have to watch President. because I was under the impression its expenditure; I assure him it does so at all amendments appearing on the notice paper were times. However, I refer Mr Brown to the figures I permitted to be discussed during the second read- quoted earlier showing an increase in tonnage ing stage. However, I defer to your ruling, and let handled over the last 10 years and an expenditure the matter stand at that. of $250 million on storage facilities in Western THE IHON. G. E. MASTERS (West-Minister Australia over the last 12 years. He must realise a for Labour and Industry) [9.42 p.m.]: I thank proportionate increase in the work force of CBH members for their general support of the Bill, is required to cater for such expansion. Mr Brown although I understand the Hon. Tom McNeil has pointed out the permanent staff of CBH an amendment on the notice paper. I particularly [Tuesday, 14 September 19821 273173 appreciate the comments of the Hon. Mick The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: This reinforces Gayfer; certainly, no-one in this Parliament and my comments about its very important contri- very few people in the State would know more bution to the State. than he the background and operation of Co-op- I would like to take issue with one or two of the erative Bulk Handling Ltd. and the great work it comments of the Hon. Jim Brown. He said that has done for the rural community. I was particu- the Bill contained an ominous message, and by larly interested to hear the honourable member that I guess he was referring to the reduced give a background of the reasons for the proposals number of farmers who bring grain to the centres. now before the House. We know of the enormous He said it is a serious matter for country towns responsibility placed on CBH in respect of the that the total number of farmers and producers management of its operations and its labour force has been reduced. Certainly the Bill before us ac- and in relation to the handling of grain in West- knowledges that fact. I accept his concern, but we ern Australia. As the Hon. Mick Gayfer rightly must understand that although it is a fact of life pointed out, the success it has enjoyed so far has that the number of producers has been reduced, been because it has anticipated increasing de- we must remember that this has been brought mands and production and in responding to the about as a result of the amalgamation of farms as needs of the industry. well as by improved efficiency to meet the de- mands of increased costs. I suppose farmers must It is not my intention to reply to all the matters get bigger and more efficient to meet the increas- raised by the Hon. Jim Brown; most of those mat- Ing costs. ters were adequately covered by Mr Gayfer. I will The Hon. J. M. Brown: What about foreign endeavour to stick to the content of the Bill. ownership? I appreciate Mr Brown's comments because The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I will talk about clearly, he has the industry very much at heart. that in a moment. We understand that it is likely Hie did a great deal of research towards his to continue at least for a time. Circumstances speech, and made an important contribution to may change, and if that is the case, the number of the debate. producers could increase. In the short term I do CBH has a great deal of which to be proud. It not think that is very likely. I do not believe we has set the standards in the maintenance of grain have lost many producers through erosion and sal- quality. It applies probably the most modern tech- inity problems. Certainly a large amount of the niques in the world in the handling of grain, and land has been affected but this has not reduced it has placed great emphasis on hygiene. For that the number of producers greatly. reason, our overseas markets have been main- The Hon. J. M. Bijown: I do not think so either. tained and protected for the future. The facilities The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: The Government of CBH are the envy of the world; this is due to has introduced legislation to try to solve these the progressive policies of the company over re- problems on an area-by-area basis. Hopefully we cent years. are gaining some ground in regard to soil degra- The Act certainly recognises the special cir- dation which resulted through over-clearing and cumstances that apply to CBH in the way the co- just plain bad management. There is a case for operative operates. This is the reason for the saying that Governments will need to keep an eye special arrangements for the way the shares can on foreign investments and, indeed, the Common- be moved, as set out in the Act and the Bill before wealth Government does just that. My under- us. standing is that any investment of more than $100 000 must be approved by the Common- I was particularly interested when the honour- wealth Government of the day. SO there is already able member mentioned the total investment in certain control on foreign investments. The Com- CBH. I knew it was a large amount, but 1 had no monwealth Government and State Governments idea that its assets were in the order of $700 must look carefully at any large investments of million. That is an enormous investment and a overseas capital. The Hon. Jim Brown would great contribution in one way or another for the know that in the case of investment in property economy of this State, in building programmes, the situation is considered carefully if the investor and in the maintenance of a very good policy for does not intend to reside on the property con- grain handling. cerned. That is the objective, and clearly the mat- The Hon. H. W. Gayfer: CBH is the biggest ter must be approached cautiously. constant employer of building labour in this State The Hon. David Wordsworth summed up the and it has been for many years. problems and difficulties that would arise if the 2732 2732[COUNCIL] existing arrangements for the management and comes before this Chamber will be given every handling or the shares of CBH were any different consideration by a very open-minded Government, from what they are at present. The idea of famil- and, therefore, I approach this matter with great ies holding shares for lire would be unrealistic. enthusiasm! The most important point put forward by the The Hon. Peter Dowding: You are joking! Hon. Mick Gayfer was that the people who have The Hon. TOM McNEIL: I remind members bought shares and who have voting rights must be of anincident which occurred three years ago. I active in the industry. In this way, the share- introduced a private member's Bill relating to holders have a proper understanding and appreci- insurance companies. I did so quite confidently ation of the problems and it leads to better con- expecting the merits of the Bill to be discussed trol or the company. fully, as a result of which its benefits would be ob- Again I thank members for their support. I ap- vious to the members of this august Chamber. preciate the great contributions they have made The Leader of the House at that time suggested and the depth of their research. I ask the House the Bill was not worth supporting and indicated to support the Bill. the Government intended to introduce legislation Question put and passed. at a later stage that would be more comprehensive Bill read a second time. than the private member's Bill I had introduced. Legislation was introduced by the Government 12 In Committee months later, but that Bill was exactly the same The Deputy Chairman of Committees (the as the private member's Bill I had introduced. Hon. R. J. L. Williams) in the Chair; the Hon. The Government's Bill went through this G. E. Masters (Minister for Labour and Industry) Chamber without a dissentient voice and was in charge of the Bill. passed as Government legislation. Clause I put and passed. I hope the position has changed since then. I do not seek to knock CBH by moving this amend- Clause 2: Section 13 amended- ment. I simply ask the Government and the Min- The Hon. TOM McNEIL: I move an amend- ister responsible for the Bill in this Chamber why ment- the amendment is not acceptable. When the Hon. Page 2-Delete paragraph (b) with a view Mick Gayfer was permitted to touch very lightly to substituting the following- on this matter he said he did not intend to support (b) by deleting the words 'but to the extent the amendment, because CBH intended to stay only that the shares so purchased and not very close to the Companies Act. sold or disposed of do not, at any one time, Section 174 of the Companies Act states, in exceed one-fifth part of the paid up capital of part, ". . . shall not at any time exceed one- the Company,'. twentieth part of the capital of the company". Therefore, the principal Act would read as fol- Since then section 174 has been overridden by lows- section 13 of the Bulk Handling Act which gives Notwithstanding the provisions or section CBH the right to hold 20 per cent of the shares. one hundred and seventy four of the According to my calculations, the figure is Companies (Co-operative) Act, 1943-1959, running currently at 24 per cent. or any provision contained in the memor- I do not know what has prompted the Govern- andum or articles of association or the ment to suggest a figure of 40 per cent would stay Company, the Company may purchase, out close to the provision of the Companies Act. I am of its reserve funds, any shares of a member not aware of the Government's figures in relation of the Company.. to ramily partnerships, corporate rarming, etc., The words to be deleted are- which may cause CBH to redeem some or the $2 ..but to the extent only that the shares so shares. purchased and not sold or disposed of do not, I simply ask why this amendment is viewed as at any one time, exceed one-fifth part of the being so sinister when, touching again on the paid up capital or the Company; Hon. Mick Gayfer's speech, CBH indicated it My enthusiasm is not dampened because the Hon, looks forward to the Government not interfering Mick Gayfer has suggested that not for one with its operations. All I am saying is, let us free moment does he intend to support the amend- its hands. We are referring to non-voting shares ment. I am an optimist and I realise we act as a and the fact that CBH may sell shares to a new House or Review. I know the legislation which producer. [Tuesday, 14 September l982J173 2733

The amendment has very far-reaching impli- are roughly 11 000 active shareholders this would cations for CBH. It would make the company mean 22 000 shares would have to be issued, and more autonomous and it would not be responsible only 15 000 have been issued to date. The to the Government for the number and percentage company would have to issue a further 7 000 on of shares it holds. top of that and it would not he long before the The articles oF association were mentioned, but company would be hoist with its own petard and I do not think I need to take that matter any faced with the same problems with each share- further. CBH is a very productive and efficient holder needing to have the same number of organisation and this amendment simply seeks to shares. free its hands so that it can hold whatever per- I can say honestly that the company in its wis- centage of the shares are eventually returned to dom, when approaching the Government, gave the company without saying, "In a few years' thought to the possibility of there being no restric- time you may have to return to the Chamber and tions. However, it is weighed down with a desire make a further amendment to the legislation." to protect its shareholders should anything un- The H-on. H. W. GAYFER: It is very toward happen at any time. This way the interesting to hear the observations of my col- company has the right to come back to Parlia- league, the IHon. Tom McNeil, in putting forward ment to have the figure increased if desired. what appears to be a straightforward request for I repeat that the whole matter arises from the the Government to initiate certain movements in letter I read to members in which CBH requested the Act which would support his amendment. that it be allowed to hold 40 per cent of the However, I remind the Committee that, during shares. the course of my second reading speech, I read a The Hon. J1.M. BROWN: In my second read- letter from the company to the Government-not ing speech I said I saw no reason to support this from the Government to the company-re- amendment. I remind members of legislation we questing that certain actions be taken along par- passed last year to extend the rights of Co-op- ticular lines to help the company in respect of erative Bulk Handling to receive, handle, and de- shareholding. Therefore, the important action liver grain exclusively until the year 2000. 1 taken by the Government here is to comply with suggested then that perhaps CBH should be able the company's wishes and not its own wishes. The to handle grain ad infinitum. The Government did Government has taken the company at its word. not take notice of my recommendation and I do The company has requested 40 per cent and the not know whether it is a fair parallel to the Government has said, -All right, this is what we will agree to", and so far the Chamber has agreed company's request for a 40 per cent shareholding. to that point. I cannot support this amendment because the figure is getting up to 30 per In making that request to the Government the cent. When it gets to company would have considered the possibility of 40 per cent in another 10 years perhaps we will have another look at the grain-growing industry their being no limitation at all on the purchase of shares. However, being a responsible in an effort to stop the loss of farmers from the company-responsible not only to the Govern- industry. menit but also to its own shareholders and particu- Amendment put and negatived. larly to the co-operative federation in Australia of Clause put and passed. which it is a member, and being a leader of the Title put and passed. co-operative spirit-it felt that in terms of its articles of association and so as to be within the Report confines of the Companies Co-operative Act, and considering that in future years should a desire Bill reported, without amendment, and the re- arise to change 40 per cent to some other figure, port adopted. the company had to come to Parliament as would any other similar body to effect the change. In ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE other words, the company does not want a blank THE HON. 1. G. MEDCALF (Metro- cheque. politan-Leader of the House) [10.07 p.m.]: I Several ways could be found perhaps to over- move- come this obvious problem with the shareholding. That the House do now adjourn. One such way would be to issue bonus shares as suggested earlier by the Hon. David Wordsworth. Airlines of Western Australia: Bus .Services Similarly, we could double the shares to each TH E HON. TOM STE PH ENS (Nort h) [l1008 shareholder in the company. However, as there p.m.]: Before the House adjourns I want to bring 2734 2734[COUNCIL] to the attention of members some correspondence within this State. It seems to me an unsatisfactory I received today from the office of Mr W. W. situation that an airline can jettison those unprof- Mitchell, the endorsed Liberal Party candidate itable or marginal operations it so wishes to jetti- for the seat of Gosnells. I looked at the envelope son, and can restrict itself to the many profitable and wondered whether I had received information operations it has throughout the rest of the State. on bottom-of-the-harbour schemes and tax I am concerned that the airline will continue in avoidance, but it proved to be a Press release for this direction of jettisoning essential services in Airlines of Western Australia in which the airline order to streamline its operations and to continue was announcing its decision to cancel its bus ser- in Only Profitable operations and services. vices throughout the State, which operate particu- THE HON. N. F. MOORE (Lower North) larly in the north between the towns and the air- [10. 12 P.m.]: I indicate briefly that I did not think ports. I would ever see the occasion when I agreed on This announcement is a matter of considerable any matter with the member for North Province concern to me because the bus service has become who has just resumed his seat. On this occasion I a very integral part of the airline service to North express my concern for the matters he raised be- Province. Townships like that of Wyndham have cause this cancellation of bus services affects come to rely on this bus service to ensure that the Exmouth, which is in my electorate. I was con- people have a regular delivery of mail, news- cerned when I read that Airlines of Western Aus- papers, and freight, apart from ensuring that they tralia intended to remove certain bus services. The receive regular passenger transport to the jet airline has indicated to me that the difficulties routes that take them to the city. may be resolved by other facilities, either by way The announcement has come unheralded, very of a private bus company providing the services, quickly following upon the Dyson review and be- or whatever. I will wait to see the alternative be- fore the Government has announced its intentions fore I become very cross about this cancellation. in relation to that review. The announcement has But at present I can say that if nothing is pro- come in such a way as to cause me concern that vided in place of the existing services we will have every time a suggestion is made about compe- the situation in Exmouth of people landing at tition being introduced into the operation of air Learmonth and having to travel some 30 miles services in Western Australia, the major airline without any public transport service available. appears to bold a gun at the head of the Govern- I am concerned that when the honourable ment and to indicate that its services will be gentleman introduced his topic he chose to deni- reduced. An airline bus service is essential in the grate Bill Mitchell by referring to bottom-of-the- isolated parts of this State. harbour schemes. His reference was grossly unfair The residents of the town of Wyndham recall and uncalled for, and smacked of the attitude of very well that when the air service to Wyndham Senator Peter Walsh. was re-routed to Kununurra only a few years ago, THE HON. PETER DOWDING (North) MMA promised they would be provided with a [10.14 p.m.]: It is interesting that the Hon. free bus service to Kununurra- Soon after that bus Norman Moore was not prepared to say anything service came into operation a tariff was imposed on this critical issue until he was given some on its users, and now the service is to be cancelled assistance by the new member for North altogether. The announcement that the service Province. will be cancelled came without any response from Several members interjected. this Government, a Government that has stated The Hon. PETER DOWDING: I understand its concern for the north. In this situation of an the Hon. Norman Moore is becoming a bit ner- airline withdrawing an essential service for north- vous about his seat; that is why he leapt to his ern residents the Minister for Transport has been reet. silent. He has not indicated what alternatives will A point which has not been made but which be introduced to assist northern residents to over- needs to be made in the context of this debate is come their isolation from regular passenger ser- that the bus services are due to cease next month vices. This isolation applies particularly in places but the Government has said nothing. It is quite like Wyndham, and certainly in other population ludicrous that the carrier made a public an- centres which will next month have the airline bus nouncement of a change which will affect the service withdrawn. livelihoods and personal situations of people in the I draw to the attention of this House my con- north without first communicating with the cern over this proposed cancellation of an integral Government. It did not First seek the Govern- service provided by this airline that has a privi- ment's comments and did not first give the leged and protected position in its operations Government an option to make some examination (Tuesday, 14 September 1982] 232735 of the alternatives. Had those steps been taken the that he did anything on behalf of his constituency Government would have been in the position when to try to solve the problem. When the Hon. the announcement was made last Friday to give Norman Moore spoke he said he had made in- some assurances to the people of the north. quiries and had ascertained that the company was For those honourable members who do not considering alternatives. In other words, he got to understand the situation-the Hon. Norman his hind legs and tried to do something for the Moore said he may not understand-we are not people he represents. talking simply about airport-to-town bus services. In the case of Wyndhtam we are talking about a Several members interjected. much more significant service than, say, the ser- vice Cram Perth airport to Perth city where there The PRESIDENT: Order! is a great variety of alternative means of transport. It is one thing to cancel the service The Hon. 1. G. PRATT: The [Hon. Peter from the Karratha airport to the Karratha shop- Dowding rose after the Hon. Norman Moore and ping centre, but it is another to cancel the service made a few remarks that were not quite straight, for the people of Wyndham. To cancel the service remarks which need to be straightened out. at Karratha will inconvenience some passengers, but not many; often I am the only person on the The Hon. Peter Dowding: Like what? bus. The Hon. 1. G. Pratt: I'm not surprised. The Hon. 1. G. PRATT: Does not the member to himself? The Hon. PETER DOWDING: Certainly I listen would prefer not to be with the Hon. ]an Pratt; I would avoid that at all costs. The Hon. Robert Hetherington: We are listening to you now. We are waiting to hear the The Hon. 1. 0. Pratt I would be much too fast any. for you. corrections, if you have

The Hon, PETER DOWDING: In the case of The PRESIDENT: Order! The member will the people of Wyndham, they will lose a direct his comments to the Chair. significant means of transportation to their major airport, which is an hour's drive away. The pres- The Hon. 1. G. PRATT: The Hon. Peter enit service is the only public transport available to Dowding said that the lack of announcement by give access to the airport. These issues are serious, the Government was a sign that the Government and I am amazed the Government should allow this matter to come and go without making an an- did not take any interest in the north. He nouncement. I regard that course as an example suggested the Hon. Norman Moore was following of that of which the Hon. Tom Stephens spoke in a lead set by the Hon. Tom Stephens, and I his maiden speech, the Government's neglect of suggest that remark was totally untrue because the north. the Hon. Norman Moore was the only one of the three speakers who had taken some concrete steps The Hon. Peter Dowding: Misrepresentat .on to do something about the problem. The Hon. THE HON. 1. C. PRATT (Lower West) [(10. 16 Peter Dowding did not say what he had done to p.m.J: We should not adjourn until we straighten help his constituents: he merely attempted a out another of the Hon. Peter Dowding's sleight sleight of hand. The Hon. Norman Moore is the of hand tricks which he serves up and expects us to swallow. only member who did something. We should not let the rubbish of the Hon. Peter Dowding go un- The Hon. Peter Dowding: I do not do anything challenged. for you, Mr Pratt. The Hon. 1. G. PRATT: The member is dead Question put and passed. right; he dues nothing for me at all. When the Hon. Tom Stephens spoke he gave no indication House adjourned at 10. 18 p.m. 2736 [COUNCIL]

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE (2) In what districts are these holdings, and for how long have they been unresolved? LAND (3) What size areas are affected, and what relationship has the unusable land and Restrictions that enclosed with it to their total work- 430. The H-on. D. J. WORDSWORTH, to the able holdings? Minister for Labour and Industry rep- (4) How many such negotiations have resenting the Minister for Fisheries and already been resolved satisfactorily? Wildlife: The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: (I) What is the number of unresolved cases (1) to (4) The attached schedule outlines where landowners are being restricted in the position with respect to species of the use of their land under the Wildlife rare flora which have been found on pri- Conservation Act? vate property and the landholder has been notified of the presence of such rare flora on his property.

Aranof Total Area Under Rare Namberof species Districts Land Area Cutnivation Flora Plants Status EuCalyptus jonoiana Victoria Land District 35300aicren unknown unknown few Awaiting responsefrom landholder. Victoria Land District 3 600 acren unknown unknowna few Awaiting responsefrom landholder Victoria L.ad District 4 50) acres unknown unknown few Awaiting resfonie from landholder Victoria Land Distriet 4 880 acres unknown un~known few Awaiting responsefrom landholder Preser.vato of rare flora acceptablein Victoria Land District 4 "0 acres unknon unknown rew landholder. Victoria Land Disnrict 3 600 acres unknown unknown few Awaiting responsefromn landholder Victoria Land District 4500 acre unknown unknown few, Awiaiting responsefrom landholder. Victoria Land District 400" acres unknown unknown few Awaiting responsefrom landholder Eucalyptus pandens Victoria Land District 3 658 acre unknown unknown few Awaiting responsefrom landholder. Victoria Lead District 4600 acres 5 acres 95 plantis Awaiig respose friomlandholder Victoria Land Districi 4000 acres unrknown unk nownr Iew Awaiting rsponsefrom landholder Victoria Land District 4000I acres unkon unknown few Awaitinresonse from landholder. Victoria Land District 4 500 acres unknown few Awaitigrsponse from landholder. Victoria Land District 3 600 acres unknown unknown few Awaiting responsefrom landholder. Victoria Land District 3000 acres unkn own. unknown few Awaiting responsefrom landholder, Victoria Land District 3 800 acres unknown few Awaiting respsonsefrom landholder. unknown Victoria Land District 4300 acr unknown few Awaitinresponse From tladler. Preservation oF rare flora acceptable to Victoria Land District 4 0Oacres unknown unknown few landholdir. Victoria Land District 4500 cr unknown unknown Fews Awaiting responsefrom landholder. Acacia unknown anoala Swan Land District 15 acres "Iacre 6 plants Awaiting :rspons frm landholder, Swan Land District apros 30 acres unknown "sI acre 3 plan.s Awaiting respons from landholder Acacia unknown guinctii Victoria Land District approse1 850 acre, S0 acres &)(l plants Awaiin responsefrom landholder, Victora Load Dirtet un~known. unknown a 150 arcs "0 Nls Negot a t inv con inning, Victoria Land District unknown unknown unknown 7 700 plants Awsaiting responsefrom landholder. Victoria Land Distr.ict unknown unknown s6 00 plants Awaiting responsefrom landholder, nit, areaat Bianksia Plantagenet Land Dis- rare flora Flora destroyed beore receipt of depart. goadii ict, 888 acre 800 acres nosscleared mental advice, Plantagenet Land Dis- approx 250 trict 1 500)acres approsrt 250 acre acimres 2 790 plants, Negotiations continuing. Dar'winia. Preservation of rare flora acceptable no cae. Williams, Land District unknown ,I acre 6 plants landholder. lena Residential Presersaton of rare flora acceptable in haickettiana City .'ofckbrn unknown develop 20 acres I 100plants landholder Drttmnondrit Victoria Lund lDistrict unknown unknown Negotiations continuing. ericoide, Vtctori~aL-and District unknown unknown IlfOacre, aprcot 300 plant Assatting mrespns from landholder Eremaoplila lclAvon LandDistidct 1 200 cres unknown 10oacres 536,plants Awaoift responsefrom landholder E~uwcatptus cacsa. Vilgar ILandDistrict I 900 acs unknown unknown few Awaiigress From landholder. Eucalyptus Melbourne Land Di,- Pmresrvton ofrar flora acceptable to carnabst. tict 422 acre 421 acres ,I acre I plat landholder. Eucalyptus klelbourne Land Dis- lendens orict 2 90 acres unknown few Awaiting respos from landholder. Melbourne La' oni. unkn.own. tricr 375 acres unknown Few Awaiting responsecfronm landholder. timaalyptus unknown Preservation r rare flora accptable to rhondantlia Victoria Land District 4 5Miacrs. unknown 600 plants landholder. Franrkliandi. Wellington Land Dis Iristata., trier 80 acres .aso 75 ar 5 aems 54 plants Awaiting response fromnlandholder. Kennadia Presentation of rare floM amenpable to narophylla Augusta Towait, at acre Nil ,I acre - tOplants landholder. Vvrticordi t.i.a Roe Land District 1666 acrt, unknown 20 iaces I"O plants Awaiting respons from landholder. RoseLand District 800 acres unknown ' 2 acres ,10 plans" Awaiting response Fromnlandholder [Tuesday, 14 September 1982J173 2737

(2) What action has been taken in re- EDUCATION spect of chat report, and when can Non-Govern ment Schools: New Registrations some substantive statement by the Minister be anticipated? 431. The Hon. D. K. BANS, to the Chief Sec- retary representing the Minister for Edu- The Hon. R. G. PIKE replied: cation: (I) On 6 August. (2) Following receipt of the Crown Law re- (I) From the list of newly registered non- port, the Minister raised a number of Govern ment schools registered in WA questions with the trust and received a during 1982, supplied in reply to comprehensive reply, including an analy- question 396 of IS August 1982, will the sis of the situation by a Queen's Coun- Minister indicate those which operate an sel. accelerated Christian education (ACE) The trust's policy of applying the pro- programme? visions of the Limitation Act was (2) Will the Minister list those schools in adopted in 1976 on the advice of its WA which presently operate an ACE senior legal adviser. programme and receive State Govern- No criticism can be levelled at the trust menit funding? or its executives for following the advice, The IHon. R. G. PIKE replied: even though it has now been shown to be (1) Of the I I non-Government schools inappropriate. They were entitled to rely newly registered in Western Australia upon such advice. during 1982, two schools operate an ac- Having reviewed the position, the celerated Christian education pro- Government believes that it would be gramme. They are- desirable for anyone who wished to en- Faith Christian Academy. Perth force a claim against the trust to know Hedland Christian Academy, South clearly the time available for this pur- Hedland pose. It would also appear desirable to require that every claimant be served (2) The non-Government schools in Western with a notice informing him of the pos- Australia currently operating an acceler- ition with respect to time. ailed Christian education programme The Minister hopes to be in a position to and which receive State Government introduce the necessary amendments funding are- during the current parliamentary sitting Faith Christian Academy. Perth for incorporation into the Bill to amend Hedland Christian Academy. South the Motor Vehicle (Third Party Hed land Insurance) Act which is already before Nollamnara Christian Academy, the Parliament. Nollamara Kingsway Christian Academy, RAILWAYS Kensington. Sleepers TRAFFIC: MVIT 433. The Hon. FRED McKENZIE, to the Min- Statute of Limitations ister for Labour and Industry representing the Minister for Transport: 432. The Hon. J. M. BERINSON, to the Chief Secretary representing the Minister for Local Referring to question 405 of Government: Wednesday, 18 August 1982, relating to the sale of Westrail sleepers, will the With reference to the actions of the Minister advise- Motor Vehicle Insurance Trust in rely- ing on the Statute of limitations under (1) To what locations did the tenderers circumstances severely eriticised by the wish to transport the sleepers? State Full Court on 22 June 1982- (2) In each case, what was the quantity involved? (1) When did the Minister receive the (3) What freight revenue, if any, did report of the Crown Law Depart- Westrail receive in each case? ment which she indicated on 3 August was expected within a few The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: days? (1) Unknown. 2738 273S[COUNCIL]

(2) Not applicable. APPRENTICES (3) The majority of sleepers from the three Number contracts were transported by rail to the metropolitan area. A large number of 435. The Hon. D. K. DANS, to the Minister for sleepers from the two Tapub contracts Labour and Industry: are known to have been subsequently (I) Will the Minister confirm that there are forwarded by rail from Kewdale to the now statistics available which indicate a Eastern States. Westrail received freight significant downturn both in the pro- revenue from both of these movements. bationary intake and indentures regis- As these contracts spanned some four tered of apprentices for July 1982? years, the detail of rail revenue appli- (2) If so, what action is being taken to cable to individual consignments is not maximise the number of apprentices in available. training? The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: FUEL AND ENERGY: GAS (1) Statistics do indicate a significant North- West Shelf.- Dampier-Perth Pipeline downturn in the number of probationary and registered apprentices recorded in 434. The Hon. FRED McKENZIE, to the July 1982. However, these should not be Leader of the House representing the Minis- considered in isolation. The total ter for Fuel and Energy: number of apprentices in training at 31 July 1982 is only marginally less than in Referring to question 379 of Tuesday, 1981. 17 August 1982. relating to "The con- (2) The matter of apprentice employment is tract price of gas to Alcoa will reflect its being closely monitored by the Western share of the cost of constructing the Australian Industrial Training Advisory Damnpier Perth pipeline", will the Minis- Council. ter advise- (1) If, as stated, Alcoa is not directly TRANSPORT: BUSES advancing funds for the pipeline, by ItJTT Brian Murrell Turpin what method is it indirectly advanc- ing funds? 436. The Hon. FRED McKENZIE, to the Min- ister for Labour and Industry representing (2) Through what body are the funds the Minister for Transport: being advanced? (3) Will the State have to bear any Referring to question 391 of costs of- Wednesday, 18 August 1982, relating to Mr B. M. Turpin of the Metropolitan (a) purchase of gas; Transport Trust, will the Minister ad- (b) capital; and vise- (c) interest: (1) What were the exact dates when up to the break-even point? Mr Turpin was in Germany in The Hon. 1.0G. M EDCALF replied: 1979? (2) Is, or was, the MTT aware of any (1) Alcoa will reserve approximately half other visit to Germany by Mr the Dampier to Wagerup pipeline ca- Turpin if such was the case? pacity for 20 years, and pay appropriate (3) What were the exact dates when reservation charges and costs on a reg- Mr Turpin was in discussion with ular basis over the contract period. the State Transport Authority SA (2) Funds will be raised through financial in 1979-1980? institutions. (4) What were the nature of the dis- (3) (a) to (c) The State Energy Commission cussions? is responsible for financing, con- (5) Was a report submitted on the dis- structing, and operating the pipeline, cussions? purchasing onshore gas to be supplied (6) To what areas was this report circu- from the North-West Shelf stage I de- lated? velopment, and re-selling such gas to The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: end-use customers, including Alcoa. (1) From 3Ito I I February 1979. [Tuesday, 14 September 1982] 273973

(2) No. (e) MBP Pty Ltd-a Wembley foundry, has (3) From I I to 22 February 1980. closed down in June as a result of the (4) Mr Turpin was seconded to the State age of the foundry's machinery and Transport Authority, South Australia to equipment. The company employed ap- discuss problems in the STA bus build- proximately 40 men. ing program. (f) Kailis Shipyard-rerenched 30 workers (5) No. in June due to a slump in demand for (6) Not applicable. prawning boats and the effect of wage rises and the 38-hour week for metal workers. 437. This question was postponed. (g) Corneng and Anvil Constructions-two major steel fabricating firms are re- QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE ported to have sacked up to 240 workers and 17 apprentices during May. EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT (h) Woolcombers (WA) Pty Ltd-a Fremantle wool-processing firm closed Job Displacement Statistics down its operations in April because of a 100. The Hon. D. K. DANS, to the Minister for fall-off in demand by overseas buyers. Labour and Industry: The company had employed 89 workers. (i) On 12 March 1982, 85 workers were re- With reference to my question 331 of 4 trenched by South Bunbury Beef Ex- August 1982, will he provide the House ports due to the lack of sheep for slaugh- with that portion of the answer relating tering caused by the recent floods. to job displacements in this State as (.North Kalgurlie Mines-retrenched 63 outlined in his correspondence to me? employees on 26 March 1982 and a The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: further 10 on 29 March 1982 following The information sought by the Leader of its decision to limit its operations at its mineral treatment plant. the Opposition was forwarded to him on 31 August- 1982. However, for the sake (k) Australian Iron and Steel (AIS)-which of the official record, and in view of the is a subsidiary of BHP, made approxi- length of the answer, I seek leave of the mately 500 workers at their Kwinana operation redundant at the end of April House to have the information incorpor- 1982. ated in Hansard. (1) Greenbushes Tin-retrenched 40 em- By leave of rhe House. the following material ployees in June 1982 due to a fall in tin was incorporatred- prices. (a) Associated Minerals (Runbury)-Cut (in) Transquip-closed on IS June 1982 re- operations by about 40 per cent in sulting in 13 employees being re- March 1982 due to slumps in world trenched. market conditions: 15 retrenched in July (n) Bunbury Structural Engineers-are and 17 in August 1982. scaling down operations due to falling (b) Agnew Clough-Retrenchment of 90 at orders. Wundowie vanadium refinery because of depressed overseas markets-January (o) Bunbury Foods Pty Ltd-placed in the 1982. hands of a receiver-manager with little likelihood that it will trade out of its dif- (c) T Etheringion Traders Pty Ltd-a po- S ficulties. Employs 59 people. tato distributor closed down its oper- ations in June. The company employed (p) Western Mining Corporation- re- approximately 30 workers. trenchments in the exploration division (d) Sands and McDougall-a prominent and natural wastage at Kambalda has printing company closed down its oper- led to a reduction in its workforce of ations in June. The company employed about 200 in the past few months. 29 workers and closed due to the print- (q) John Holland Constructions laid off ing area no longer being a paying prop- about 54 of its 70 employees at its con- osition. crete sleeper factory at Meckering. 2740 2740COUNCIL]

(r) Thomas National Transport is to lay off of skilled migrants coming to Western 200 employees across its Australia-wide Australia; and when were these steps operations. No information is available taken? as to the exact lay-oils that will occur in this State. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: (s) Candy Timbers retrenched 12 em- Quite clearly, I am aware that some ployees on 30 July 1982 and Millars ad- vised on 10 August 1982 that a further steps are being taken; but in view of the 36 employees were retrenched. need to be absolutely precise on these (t) Midland Brick has reduced its workforce matters and in view of past remarks by 100 over the last two months. from the member. I would ask that the question be placed on notice. POLICE: CRIMES COMMISSION Merits 10). The Hon. J. M. BERINSON. to the At- ABORIGINES: SACRED SITES torney General: Millst ream Station In view of the importance of the subject, 104. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the and in view of the vagueness of the dis- Minister for Cultural Affairs: cussions so far, would he be prepared to make a statement to the House at an ap- (1) Is the Museum aware of claims by Ab- propriate time, detailing the nature, original groups in the Pilbara that the function, and the Government's view of Millstream Station area, and in particu- lar the Fortescue River, are of great the merits of both the proposed national sacred significance to them? crimnes commission and his proposed alternative of a national criminal (2) Has the Minister made any represen- tations to the Minister for Works about intelligence commission? this issue in relation to the proposed re- The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF replied: sumption of Millstream Station, and if I shall give consideration to the request. so, when and what was the basis of the representation; if not, why not? IMM IGRATION (3) What material has been given to or Skilled Labour sought by the relevant Minister on this 102. The Hon. D. K. DANS, to the Minister for issue from the Museum prior to the in- Labour and Industry: itiation of the moves to resume Mill- stream Station? In view of the figures from the Com- (4) What proposals, if any, have been made monwealth Department of Immigration by the Museum as to the future manage- and Ethnic Affairs indicating some ment of the area having regard to the 17 200 new settler arrivals in Western interests of the Aboriginal people? Australia in 1981-82, has he or the Government learnit of any difficulties The Hon. R. G. PIKE replied: being experienced in the placing of (1) I am advised that the Millstream skilled tradesmen among these arrivals? Station area is known to the Museum to The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: contain a number of significant Aborigi- Some difficulties have been brought to nal sites. Investigations in 1978 located my notice although I have not the exact 38 sites of either ethnographic or details. I understand some difficulties archaeological importance. One have been experienced. protected area has already been declared under the Aboriginal Heritage Act as a site of outstanding importance. IMMIGRATION (2) Yes. I forwarded comments from the Skilled Labour WA Museum to the Minister for Works 103. The Hon. D. K. DANS. to the Minister for concerning known significant Aboriginal Labour and Industry: sites and others not yet surveyed or as- Can be detail the steps taken by the sessed at Millstream Station on 22 July State Government to reduce the number 1982. [Tuesday, 14 September 1982J174 2741

(3) None specifically, although (3) All requests have received consideration. irnvestigations by the Museum under the Senior departmental officers are meet- Aboriginal Heritage Act resulted in the ing with an Aboriginal group in declaration of the protection area Roebourne today. It is understood mem- referred to in (1) above. bers who met the Minister on 31 August (4) In respect of sites likely to be significant will be present, under the Aboriginal Heritage Act, and for which it is responsible, the Museum INSURANCE: SGJO asked for an assurance that an oppor- tunity would be given to the Museum to Life and Property Insurance examine the area concerned prior to any 106. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the development. By letter dated 4 August Chief Secretary: 1982. the Minister for Works confirmed (1) Is he aware of the 1974 recommendation that; although it is most unlikely chat that the SG1O be permitted to enter the any further water development will take insurance fields of private property place within the Milistream waler re- insurance and life assurance? serve until after the year 2000, co-oper- (2) Is he prepared to support the enlarge- ation between the Museum and the Pub- ment of the SGIO's charter to permit it lic Works Department will continue and to enter those fields? ample opportunity to examine the area (3) If not, why not? prior to any future development will be given. In addition, I understand that the The Hon. R. G. PIKE replied: results of the Museum's investigations (1) to (3) 1 inform the House that the have been made available to the Abor- Government does not intend to extend iginal Lands Trust. the franchise now available to the State Government Insurance Office. ABORIGINES: SACRED SITES The Hon. J. M. Brown: What a disgrace. Mi! lsirearn Station The Hon. P. G. Pendal: A good decision. 105. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the The Hon. R. G. PIKE: We have the philos- Minister for Labour and Industry rep- ophy and intention of minimising the ex- resenting the Minister for Waters Resources: tension of Government into direct com- petition with the free enterprise market (1) Is the Minister aware of claims by Ab- place. In the past this has been evi- original groups in the Pilbara that the denced by the sale of the Labor Party Millstream Station area and in particu- established State brickworks, State saw- lar the Portescue River is of particular mills, and State hotels. sacred significance to them? The Hon. Lyla Elliott:. That (2) Has the Minister or his department re- was a disgrace- ceived representations from either Abor- ful act. iginal communities in the Pilbara or the The Hon. R. G. PIKE: The comprehensive WA Museum on this issue; and, if so, area of insurance into which it has been when and what was the basis of the rep- suggested the SGIO should extend is resentations? already well and adequately handled by (3) What action if any has the Minister or the private enterprise insurance his department taken in relation companies existing in the market place. thereto? I make the point that this is a very good example of the dichotomy between the The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: socialist philosophy of the Opposition (I) Yes. and the free enterprise philosophy of the (2) Yes. The latest was a deputation from Government. The following can be the Aboriginal Lands Trust including found on page 14 of the Labor Party several Aboriginal representatives from platform, "The existing State Govern- Roebourne which met with the Minister ment insurance Office will be extended for Water Resources on 31 August 1982 to provide comprehensive insurance for concerning, among other matters, poss- all." I make the point that the Oppo- ible protection of a sacred site in the re- sition, tethered as it is to the socialist gion. peg, has absolutely no compunction in 2742 2742[COUNCIL]

this House or anywhere else in the State Party and the free enterprise coalition to admit that it is bound hook and crook Govt. to the instructions given to it by the Labor Party. When I say the "Labor INSURANCE: SGIO Party", if the House has any doubt Property Insurance whatsoever about this party, let its mem- bers consider the last conference of the 107. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the State ALP when, in the dying mo- Chief Secretary: ments- In considering that the people of West- The PRESIDENT: Order! ern Australia are well served by the The Hon. D. K. Dans: You might go to the present shackles on the State Govern- bottom of the harbour if you keep go- ment Insurance Office, did he take into ing-with your mates. account any consideration of the people in the north of this State who have to The PRESIDENT: Order! If honourable pay very high property insurance rates members wish the questions without no- because of the difficulty of local tice session to continue they should come insurance companies establishing them- to order when I call them to order. I selves in the north? suggest to the Chief Secretary that he confine his comments to answering the The Hon. R. G. PIKE replied: question asked. Proper account was taken of all the mar- The Hon. R. G. PIKE: I make the further ket place in Western Australia in regard point in answering this question that the to insurance when this determination Labor Party in this State and in this was being arrived at. Again I repeat the House-certainly the leader of that point that the socialist Labor Party has party, Mr Brian Burke-is seeking to a clear concept that, somehow or other, convince industry leaders that they the Government will be able to do things should not take too much notice of the more efficiently than the private en- written Labor Party policy. terprise market place. We hold the view that this is clearly not so, even though Point of Order the ALP is at present endeavouring to convince the small businessmen in the The Hon. LYLA ELLIOTT: I submit that State that the strict policies that exist in the Chief Secretary's reply has nothing its platform do not exist, when they do. to do with the question and that he is Mr Burke is a decoy endeavouring to out of order. convince the free enterprise people in The PRESIDENT: I ask the Chief Secretary this State- to proceed with answering the question and to confine his remarks to answering Point of Order the question. The Hon. LYLA ELLIOTT: The Chief Sec- retary is again not answering the Questions (without notice) Resumed question and is therefore out of order. The Hon. R. G. PIKE; I make the point that The PRESIDENT: I agree with the Hon. when a question is asked totally without Lyla Elliott that the Chief Secretary is notice, which is always the case with Mr not answering the question and is mak- Peter Dowding- ing a speech about something that goes The PRESIDENT: Order! The Minister can- beyond the question asked. I ask him to not make those sorts of comments. answer the question. The Hon. R. G. PIKE: In conclusion I repeat Questions (without notice) Resumed that the answer to this question has been given, which is that the Government has The Hon. R. G. PIKE: For the elucidation of no intention of extending the franchise the Leader of the Opposition, who obvi- of the SGlO. Further I repeat the point, ously is not listening very carefully, I re- which I think is relevant, that this de- peat the point that proper account was cision represents a clear dichotomy of taken of all the services provided by philosophy between the socialist Labor insurance companies in this State when JTuesday, 14 September 19821 274324

the Government made its proper The Hon. L.G. MEDCALF replied: judgment that the free enterprise market f have never before set eyes on the per- place is adequately looking after son in the Gallery. insurance in this State, including the point made by the Hon. Peter Dowding NEWSPAPER LIBEL AND REGISTRATION in his question. ACT "The Kimberley Echo" INSURANCE: SGIO Ill.L The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the At- Life and Property Insurance torney General: 108. The Hon, PETER DOWDING, to the (1) Is he aware of a complaint about the Chief Secretary: publication known as The Kimberley Echo and particularly a complaint that Having indicated his displeasure of a it is a newspaper that ought to be but is mixed economy which involves Govern- not registered under ihe Newspaper ment enterprise and private enterprise. Libel and Registration Act? will he indicate whether it is his (2) Has he received a complaint on this intention or desire to see the SGIO lim- issue? ited in its existing area of service or is (3) Has he investigated the complaint? the Government content with the (4) What action, if any, has he taken on the SC 10's present charter and operation? complaint? The Hon. R. C. PIKE replied: (5) Will he explain the delay in acting on This question is contrary to Standing the complaint? Order No. 354 because the member The Hon. 1. C. MEDCALF replied: clearly asks for an opinion. I have no (1) to (5) I have received a complaint from intention to give the opinion for which the Hon. Peter Dowding on this matter; he asks. I have not received complaints from anyone else. I do not believe there has INSURANCE: 5010 been any delay in acting on the com- plaint. As I have already explained to Charter of Operations the member, the matter was referred by 109. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the me to the Crown Law Department. That Chief Secretary: department has just replied to me and supplied me with particulars. I propose (1) Does the Government intend to make to write to the member shortly in answer the any change to the present charter of to his letter to me. operaion of the SC 10? (2) Is it the Government's attitude that the SC tO's present operation is a proper NEWSPAPER LIBEL AND REGISTRATION one? ACT "The Kirmberley Echo" The Hon. R. G. PIKE replied: 112. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the At- (1) and (2) For the benefit of the Hon. torney General- Peter Dowding 1 draw his attention to the clear and concise statement made in Is it a fact that the complaini about The reply to his first question. The Govern- Kimberley Echo was made to him before ment does not intend to extend the fran- 19 August 1982 and that no action has chise now available to the SC 10. been taken to prosecute the owner of The Kim berley Echo? The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF replied: LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL I cannot remember the date of the mem- Public Gallery ber's letter; I assume that as he asks me 110. The Hon. D. K. DANS, to the Attorney whether it is a fact that the complaint General: was made before 19 August, he is aware it must have been made before 19 Is he prepared to tell the House what August. I cannot verify that, but it prob- the person in the Gallery is complaining ably was; the member would know bet- about? ter than I would. I do not carry a copy 2744 [COUNCIL]

of the letter around with me. As for any (2) If not, why not? action being taken, I have already ad- vised him in answer to his previous The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF replied: question that I am about to write to him. (1) and (2) It will all be made clear in the NEWSPAPER LIBEL AND REGISTRATION letter that the member will receive. ACT -The Kimberley Echo" The Hon. Peter Dowding: This is in marked 113. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the At- contrast to the- torney General: The PRESIDENT: Are there any more (1) Has he or his officers taken any action questions without notice? on the complaint about The Kimberley Echo other than to prepare a letter to The Hon. Peter Dowding: You have to be- me; in other words, has he prosecuted The PRESIDENT: Order! I ask the Hon. the publisher of this newspaper for fail- ing to register under the Newspaper Peter Dowding to refrain from com- Libel and Registration Act? menting when I am speaking.