Vol. 712 Thursday No. 101 2 July 2009

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Royal Assent Questions Energy Performance Certificates Disabled People: UN Convention EU: Financial Institutions Comprehensive Spending Review Parliamentary Standards Bill First Reading Five Statutory Instruments Motions to Refer to Grand Committee Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill Committee (4th Day) Swine Flu Statement Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (Violent Offender Orders) (Notification Requirements) Regulations 2009 Motion to Approve Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (Foreign Travel Notification Requirements) Regulations 2009 Motion to Approve Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill Committee (4th Day) (Continued)

Grand Committee Welfare Reform Bill Committee (8th Day)

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 323 Royal Assent[2 JULY 2009] Energy Performance Certificates 324

a comprehensive research project that is to be carried House of Lords out in two phases. The first phase will look at the operational effectiveness of the current arrangements Thursday, 2 July 2009. and the second at compliance and value for money. It is due to report finally in the summer of next year. I 11 am can tell the noble Lord that to date some 92,000 non-domestic EPCs have been lodged on the register, Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Bradford. so it is having some effect. However, there are issues around non-compliance which need to be seriously Royal Assent addressed.

11.06 am Lord Redesdale: My Lords, considering—I am sorry, a touch of swine flu, I think. I shall start again. The The following Acts were given Royal Assent: Minister says that he supports EPCs, but is he aware Geneva Conventions and United Nations Personnel that the newly formed Association of Property and (Protocols) Act, Energy Professionals, which represents home inspectors Business Rate Supplements Act, and domestic energy assessors, is taking the Government Saving Gateway Accounts Act, to judicial review and will probably launch a class Broads Authority Act. action because the Government have created two industries but, through their actions, have removed the need for DEAs and home inspectors? With the creation of the Energy Performance Certificates home energy assessor role, which is yet another layer, Question all the people who trained and who sometimes spent their life savings on it are now finding their role being 11.07 am taken on by other organisations. A press release from British Gas says that its meter readers will take on the Asked By Lord Dixon-Smith role. Can the Minister say whether this is a good use of government money, given that it could cost £70 million? To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have assessed the level of compliance with the requirement to provide energy performance certificates Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I was not for buildings being sold in the commercial property aware that there is a prospect of judicial review. If that sector. is the case, I should not say too much from the Dispatch Box on the issue. The number of assessors is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, for the market to determine. I acknowledge that people Department for Communities and Local Government & have trained to undertake these responsibilities and, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of obviously, the greater the compliance that can be Luton): My Lords, no assessment has been made. engendered, the greater the prospects for those people Energy performance certificates have only been required who are in the field. for all non-domestic buildings constructed, sold or rented since October 2008. Local weights and measures Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I declare an authorities are responsible for enforcing these interest as someone who lets property. As from the end requirements. We support them in carrying out their of last year—I think it was October—an energy duties by providing guidance and access to the EPC performance certificate has been needed for any property register and database. We will assess the level of that is available for letting. However, I am not sure I compliance later this year. understand what has just been said. Is it that the highly-qualified people are rather like expert surgeons, Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, I thank the Minister who can still do minor surgery and therefore there for his reply. A survey by National Energy Services would be employment for them in that sense, or is it reveals either almost total ignorance or disregard of that because they are so well qualified they can no the need for energy performance certificates in the longer do domestic work? What the noble Lord, Lord commercial sector. Energy performance certificates Redesdale, said was a little confusing. are the one really useful tool to come out of the Government’s regulation of the property market. Around Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the noble 11,000 accredited energy inspectors, largely trained at Baroness is right: from October 2008 any domestic or their own expense, are wondering why Her Majesty’s non-domestic property which is sold, constructed or Government encouraged them to undertake their training. let requires an EPC. The EPCs are generated by approved What steps are the Government considering to overcome assessors and different standards apply for those dealing this failure? with domestic dwellings and those dealing with non- domestic dwellings. They have to be accredited through Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I certainly schemes which are themselves approved by the Secretary support the noble Lord in underlining the importance of State, but the standards and expertise required of of EPCs because they play a vital role in energy policy. someone doing an EPC on a domestic dwelling would As I said in my response, we are proposing to assess not have to be the same as those required of someone levels of compliance later this year and have commissioned doing an EPC on a commercial property. 325 Energy Performance Certificates[LORDS] Disabled People: UN Convention 326

Earl Cathcart: My Lords, in the spirit of leading by Lord Morris of Manchester: My Lords, I am grateful example—something that, sadly, did not happen with to my noble friend and to Jonathan Shaw and Anne HIPs—can the Minister confirm that 100 per cent of McGuire for their unswerving commitment to ratification the government-owned commercial property that was of both the convention and the Optional Protocol. sold or let during the past six months, or since October Does my noble friend accept that implementing them if he would prefer, was properly marketed with an will succeed in proportion to the involvement of disabled energy performance certificate. people and their organisations at every stage of the process? Can we be assured of adequate resourcing for the implementation plan? Finally, by when does he Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, that is a very expect your Lordships’ House to have an opportunity interesting question. The answer is that I would certainly to debate this historic development? hope so. I asked those who briefed me about government buildings and the publication of DECs whether there Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I pay tribute was full compliance with that requirement. The answer to my noble friend for all the work that he has done I received is that there was a high level of compliance. over so many years for the cause of disabled people. I I hope that that is exceeded in the case raised by the agree that successful implementation will be achieved noble Earl. through a partnership approach that brings together Government, disabled people and the commissions Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, as that form the independent element of the monitoring this subject has come up very frequently in the past and reporting framework. The convention is not owned two or three years, how many Members of your Lordships’ by a single element of this partnership, and we will House does the noble Lord think would pass an make a success of it if we work together. examination on this legislation on the basis of what we On the issue of resources, because of where we are have heard so far? starting from, the UK is well placed to implement this convention and it will not be necessary to require the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am not sure investment of substantial new resources, but we are how many Members of your Lordships’ House would not complacent about what happens next. We will be keen to undertake the role of an assessor in these look to maximise the impact by making the best use of circumstances. However, in all seriousness, this is a the resources that are available. There are no current hugely important policy. We know that there is an plans for a debate, although the Welfare Reform Bill overwhelming body of scientific evidence which indicates involves some of these issues and we will be debating it that climate change is a serious and urgent issue and again this afternoon, but I am sure that this House will that nearly half of all emissions in this country come keep the Government on their toes. There are numerous from buildings. EPCs mean that, for the first time, ways in which we could engender a debate, which consumers will know how energy efficient buildings would be very welcome and a healthy thing to do. are and how to make them perform better. I hope noble Lords will join me in trying to get those messages Lord Rix: My Lords, when will the Government’s out generally. reservations to Article 12.4 be reviewed, given that they have indicated that a review system of legal appointees should be introduced? Disabled People: UN Convention Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, as the noble Question Lord has mentioned, we entered a reservation with regard to mental capacity issues. We did that because, 11.15 am although we have a system in place where people can be supported and appointed to receive benefits on Asked By Lord Morris of Manchester behalf of others, we do not have a formal review To ask Her Majesty’s Government what further procedure. We need to do that to be compliant with action they have now taken regarding ratification of the convention but, as we have stated and made clear, the United Nations Convention on the Rights of we intend to introduce that system. Regrettably, it Persons with Disabilities and the parliamentary cannot be done overnight because a number of people process for the ratification of the Optional Protocol. are involved with this; it could take some two years. However, we are intent on removing the reservation as quickly as we can. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Baroness Thomas of Winchester: My Lords, the Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of first step is to let disabled people know about the Luton): My Lords, we ratified the convention on 8 June. important ratification of this treaty. Do the Government Our focus is now moving to implementation, including have any proposals to let disabled people know, not awareness-raising, monitoring and reporting. We will just through the organisations but more broadly? After be working with disabled people, their organisations all, sadly, not everyone listens to “Today in Parliament”. and the equality and human rights commissions to explore how we can take this forward. I am pleased to Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the noble say that we started the parliamentary process for Baroness makes an important point. Part of ratification of the Optional Protocol on 22 June 2009, implementation, which we have an obligation to do, and hope to conclude this before the Summer Recess. will be to ensure that we promote the convention. Our 327 Disabled People: UN Convention[2 JULY 2009] EU: Financial Institutions 328 plans are to do so through the normal channels—the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am not sure commissions and the vast and rich network of what our chances of success are. The most important stakeholders who engage with us on disability issues—and thing is that, whoever does it, there is an effective that is the most effective route to get those messages monitoring operation in place at UN level. It is our out there. responsibility as a national Government to make sure that we liaise with the monitoring operation by reporting Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, does the to it, as we are required to do, within two years to implementation involve the devolved Administrations? demonstrate how we are effectively implementing the If so, what steps are the Government taking to ensure convention domestically. that those Administrations are fully up with the ratification? EU: Financial Institutions Lord McKenzie of Luton: Yes, my Lords, this is Question UK-wide and must involve the devolved Administrations. Under the convention, there was an assumption that 11.23 am there would need to be one focal point appointed nationally. That will be the ODI. It will certainly need Asked By Lord Pearson of Rannoch to engage with the commissions in each of the devolved Administrations as a key route to involving them in To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment this process. they have made of how the powers granted to the new European Union financial institutions will develop Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, does the in future; and whether they will affect the independence Minister recognise that he has replied with respect to of the United Kingdom and its financial institutions. one of the four reservations that the Government made—the only one that a number of outsiders, myself The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury included, thought was even faintly justified? He has (Lord Myners): My Lords, the Government have agreed not replied about the other three reservations; there with EU leaders that any powers granted to the new was a widely held view that they were not justified. EU regulatory bodies should be targeted at strengthening Will he give a commitment that the Government will regulation and the effectiveness of supervision and be actively reviewing those reservations and that they should not undermine the fiscal responsibilities of will withdraw them as soon as their justification—which national Governments. The Government expect to see is quite remarkably thin—is demonstrated no longer this reflected in the Commission’s draft proposals, to exist? which are due in the autumn.

Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am not sure Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, I thank the that I agree with the characterisation of the justification noble Lord for that reply. However, it does not accord as thin. We have certainly said that we would review with the view of the French President, which is worth the liberty of movement reservations within 12 months. putting on the record. He said: The noble Lord will be aware that we debated the “We have agreed a European system of supervision with reservation in respect of the Armed Forces recently. binding powers … It is a complete sea-change in the Anglo-Saxon That reservation is necessary because in our other strategy … We could have gone further, but I believe that it will domestic legislation the Armed Forces are not subject widen [its powers] through experience and practice, the way it’s to the employment conditions of the Disability always happened”. Discrimination Act. For as long as that remains the Quite so. My first question is— position, it is absolutely technically right that a reservation is maintained in respect of the convention. Otherwise, Noble Lords: Oh! there would be a mismatch between the convention and our domestic legislation. The declaration and reservation on education will Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, that was a always be kept under review, but for as long as there is comment on the Minister’s Answer. When can we the assumption—if that is what it is—that the convention expect the Commission’s impact assessments on all would prohibit special schools, there will be the need this and on the proposed hedge fund directive? Will to maintain an interpretive declaration. Our system of the Minister be good enough to put copies in your education recognises the importance of mainstream Lordships’ Library when he gets them? Secondly, have schools, but also that there should be an element of Her Majesty’s Government made their own assessment choice and special schools for those who need them. of the damage to our economy caused by firms leaving the City in droves, which they are already starting to Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the Government do? intended to ratify this convention by the end of last year. Had they done so, this country would have been Lord Myners: My Lords, I am sure that President among the original 12 members of the United Nations Sarkozy will be delighted to know that the noble Lord, monitoring committee. Now it is six months later and, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, stands in this House as his although there are six more places up for grabs, I spokesman; it is a significant change for Members of understand that none can be filled until 80 countries the House to see the noble Lord speaking on behalf of have ratified the convention. What is the Minister’s a leading European statesman. The outcome of the prognosis of the UK getting one of these places? European Council meeting and the ECOFIN finance 329 EU: Financial Institutions[LORDS] EU: Financial Institutions 330

[LORD MYNERS] week at ECOFIN, was fully supported by all European meeting was absolutely in accordance with what we set nations, including France. At the heart of that agreement out to do, which was to ensure that the holder of the were proposals built on the original letter of 3 March ECB presidency did not naturally chair the European from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Czech systemic risk council and that the three upgraded Republic presidency, as modified to take into account Lamfalussy level 3 committees should have advisory the de Larosière proposals and to address the issues to but not statutory responsibilities for supervision. I am which I have referred relating to the upgraded Lamfalussy unaware of firms leaving the City of London in droves— committees and the European systemic risk council. quite the opposite. The City of London is continuing to grow in global significance, as underlined by the recent Bischoff report. Lord Trimble: My Lords, do those conclusions not include a provision whereby there could be arbitration between competing regulators and that the Lamfalussy Lord Harrison: My Lords, does my noble friend committees would then have the power to impose a acknowledge that the independence of the United decision? Was the Commission not instructed to draw Kingdom and its financial institutions is defended up legislation along these lines, or advancing further because we are playing an active role within the European along these lines? This matter is by no means concluded. Union and its financial institutions? Lord Myners: My Lords, I fully agree with the Lord Myners: My Lords, I absolutely agree with my noble Lord, Lord Trimble, that the matter will not be noble friend. We are doing that in terms of the architecture concluded until such time as the necessary legislation of regulation and supervision. As the noble Lord, is approved. I think that, in referring to arbitration, he Lord Pearson, raised the subject of the European actually means binding mediation, which has been draft directive on alternative investment management— accepted in respect of disputes between home and that was the source of his original Question, before he host countries for banking regulation, precisely responding changed his mind to ask a different question—let me to a point emphasised and first raised by the Chancellor say that we are also actively engaged in representing of the Exchequer in his letter of 3 March. the views of those who invest in hedge funds and those involved in that industry and supporting it here in London. In that connection, I am regularly engaged Lord Dykes: My Lords— with the Commission and with the new Swedish presidency to fight Britain’s corner. Lord Butler of Brockwell: My Lords— Lord Newby: My Lords, does the Minister accept that there is near unanimity, not necessarily extending The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, on the need to Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs develop and strengthen the international regulation of (Lord Davies of Oldham): My Lords, it is the turn of financial institutions? Does he agree that, unless the the Cross Benches. EU takes a lead on this, the chances of London surviving, prospering and developing as an international Lord Butler of Brockwell: My Lords, when can we financial services centre will be jeopardised, not improved? expect the Government’s White Paper on their regulatory proposals, which press reports have suggested is imminent? Lord Myners: My Lords, I once again find myself in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Newby. Britain’s central role in financial services in Europe is greatly Lord Myners: My Lords, we are departing some enhanced by our ability to work with our European way from the Question but, if it helps the House, I partners to ensure that we develop new methods of anticipate that the Government’s paper on the future macro-prudential supervision, regulation and micro- of financial markets will be published within the next supervision, which will strengthen confidence in the fortnight. financial services and banking sectors across Europe. The fact that we have a powerful voice in Europe Lord Dykes: My Lords, does not the Minister find undoubtedly provides much useful opportunity. it very eccentric indeed that members of UKIP and some old-fashioned and eccentric people in the City Lord Tebbit: My Lords, would the noble Lord like are always going on about the virtues of the single to confirm what I think he said, which was that market in all respects except when they suddenly regard President Sarkozy has got it all wrong and that the the City of London as fit for special exemption? Is this Minister and his colleagues, with their usual brilliance not an illogical position to take, bearing in mind that and charm, have negotiated in Europe an agreement we need a central single market in financial regulation that enables us to do exactly what we want, despite the as well? opposing views of many in Europe? That is what he implied. Is that what he meant? Lord Myners: My Lords, my regular contacts with the City suggest to me that most leaders of opinion Lord Myners: My Lords, the agreement secured at and trade bodies in the City fully recognise the very the European Council, endorsed by all members of real advantages that come from being a member of the the council and building on the work done the previous single market. 331 EU: Financial Institutions[2 JULY 2009] Comprehensive Spending Review 332

Comprehensive Spending Review back to a level which we regard as more sustainable. In the interim period, real expenditure from now to 2013-14 Question will increase at 0.7 per cent per annum.

11.30 am Lord Newby: My Lords, does the Minister accept Asked By Baroness Noakes that we heard the Prime Minister say yesterday that the only action that would be required in the years To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the next ahead to bring public expenditure under control was a comprehensive spending review will be published. combination of asset sales and efficiency savings? Does he accept that that is a completely inadequate response? If the Government bring forward specific The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury programmes in the Pre-Budget Report which can no (Lord Myners): My Lords, departmental budgets are longer be afforded, will he urge his ministerial colleagues set until April 2011. As the Chancellor has said, given in the Treasury to cut them? the degree of economic uncertainty, now would be the wrong time to set departmental budgets through to Lord Myners: My Lords, expenditure must always 2014. The Chancellor will return to these issues at the be targeted at the points where it can be most helpful PBR. to the economy and society. Politics and Treasury management are about making difficult choices. We will, through our efficiency programme and prioritisation, Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I thank the Minister ensure that public expenditure is used effectively to for that reply. The Prime Minister has spent weeks deliver value for money and to support the economy, denying the fact that the Budget’s spending projections British jobs, British companies and British families to 2014 contain real terms cuts in total public spending. during this global recession. Indeed, if you strip out debt interest and social security payments, there are real terms cuts of 7 per cent to public service spending. However, instead of being Baroness O’Cathain: My Lords, does the Minister straight with the public, the Prime Minister sent the really think that we are so naive to believe that by First Secretary of State out to tell the media that the reducing public borrowing we are not going to cut Comprehensive Spending Review, which could not public services or public expenditure? That is my first have concealed the truth, was cancelled. point. Secondly, it is all very well to say that we have got to wait until things work out and see whether the I know that the Minister will want to be honest recession is going to end on whatever date at whatever with the House. Does the Chancellor really believe hour, but the reality out there is that there are elderly that forecasting uncertainty is a good reason for not people in care homes that are subsidised by local being up front with the public about the need to authorities, and local authority expenditure will be control public expenditure and set priorities? Does he cut; what do those people think? There are young agree with the director-general of the CBI who said people at the other end—the “NEETS”—who do not yesterday that the Government are creating damaging even know if they will have jobs. Yet we are told that uncertainty for business? there will be public expenditure. This does not add up. When will the Government come clean? This is not Lord Myners: My Lords, I always wish to give party-political playing. forthright and honest answers to the noble Baroness’s questions. The answer is yes to the question about the Noble Lords: Oh! Chancellor’s views. Lord Myners: My Lords, let my try to be clear. Public expenditure will increase from today, through Lord Barnett: My Lords, does my noble friend to 2013-14, at 0.7 per cent per annum. Public capital recognise that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is not expenditure is being front-loaded. There is that dreadful at her best playing party political games? However, phrase, which our soon-to-be noble friend Lord Sugar will he confirm that the Government have in mind not would like to use, of things being “shovel ready”, to start to cut public expenditure, and possibly increase whereby projects which can be implemented rapidly taxation, until the recession is clearly over and we are are being brought forward. What I can be sure about is into positive growth, but that then major cuts in public that we will continue to support the provision of expenditure and/or tax increases will be needed? public health and public education, and that the country can rely upon a Labour Government to ensure that Lord Myners: My Lords, I thank my noble friend public provision is something which we support, honour Lord Barnett for his always perceptive questioning. and respect. The outline for government expenditure and taxation through to 2013-14, as set out in the Budget, follows Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, does my precisely the pattern that he suggests. We will maintain noble friend the Minister share my view that the public expenditure to support the economy during a public view with some distaste the likelihood of having period of global recession, but thereafter we will—we a Punch and Judy show between now and the next are committed to do this—reduce progressively public general election on the issue of costs, expenditure and sector borrowing as a percentage of GDP to take it cuts? I welcome his statement on when the Comprehensive 333 Comprehensive Spending Review[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 334

[LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE] Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Spending Review will appear. In the mean time, will (Amendment) Order 2009 the Government, given their desire to try to increase democratic renewal with the public, see whether we can devise a system whereby when the public expenditure Statistics and Registration Service Act review comes out and we can see what the Government intend to do, we could introduce a programme whereby 2007 (Disclosure of Higher Education both manifestos are put to the public before the election, Student Information) Regulations 2009 including the costs and savings that will arise, so that the public in turn can be treated seriously in an adult fashion, and make a proper decision on which party Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) they should support? Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non- jury trial provisions) Order 2009 Lord Myners: My Lords, the Comprehensive Spending Review introduced by this Government sets out a Children Act 1989 (Higher Education medium-term planning horizon and priorities for departmental expenditure and is a distinct improvement Bursary) (England) Regulations 2009 on the previous annual budgeting exercises which led to far too much short-term decision making. How the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 electorate form their views on the proposals put forward by the party opposite must be for the party opposite, (Regulated Activity, Miscellaneous and which must be more precise about its plans. From my Transitional Provisions and perspective, we can be pretty confident that the party Commencement No. 5) Order 2009 opposite would spend less than we would spend on education, less than we would spend on health, less Motions to Refer to Grand Committee than we would spend on infrastructure, and less than we would spend on security. That will be the clear and 11.39 am stark choice that the electorate will confront when Moved By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon there is an election. I have no doubt that the electorate will evidence their continuing support for significant That the draft orders and regulations be referred investment in public provision. to a Grand Committee. Motions agreed. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness Royall of Blaisdon): My Lords, I respectfully remind Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and your Lordships that Oral Questions is a time for Learning Bill Companion questions, not for statements. I quote from the : Committee (4th Day) “Supplementary questions may be asked but they should be short and confined to not more than two points … The essential 11.40 am purpose of supplementaries is to elicit information, and they should not incorporate statements of opinion”. Clause 40 : Education and training for persons over compulsory school age: general duty Arrangement of Business Amendment 93 Announcement Moved by Baroness Sharp of Guildford 93: Clause 40, page 23, line 33, at end insert— 11.38 am “( ) consult with local employers and their representatives, Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, with the leave including, where appropriate, those persons designated of the House, my noble friend Lady Thornton will in section 11(1)(b) of the Apprenticeships, Skills, repeat the Statement on the swine flu update at a Children and Learning Act 2009 to issue apprenticeship frameworks in particular sectors, as to the availability convenient point after 12.30 pm. The luncheon break and suitability of provision within their area;” business will follow immediately after the Statement. Baroness Sharp of Guildford: This set of amendments is about consultation, asking that local authorities and Parliamentary Standards Bill the chief executive for skills funding consult with employers, trade associations, chambers of commerce First Reading and sector skills councils about what sort of training is needed for the local workforce in any particular area. 11.39 am Amendment 93 relates to Clause 40 and local authority duties. Clause 40(1) states that, “A local education authority in England must secure that The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first enough suitable education and training is provided to meet the time and ordered to be printed. reasonable needs of persons”, 335 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 336 aged 16-18 “in their area”. Clause 40(3) defines suitable suitable for those aged 19 or over. Subsection (3) “reasonable needs” as having regard to “ages, abilities defines reasonable, which we shall come back to later and aptitudes”, “learning difficulties”, the quality available when we discuss the clause. Subsection (4) is key to and “locations and times”. Subsection (4) lists a lot of that amendment, as it lists all the things that the chief things the local authority must do in performing its executive of the Skills Funding Agency must take duty.It must encourage a diversity of provision, especially account of. Subsection (4)(c) states that he or she for those aged 16 to 18 who have to stay in education must, and training as a result of the Education and Skills “take account of the education and skills required in different Act 2008. It must think about what others might sectors of employment for employees and potential employees”. provide, make good use of resources but not incur Once again, there is no mention of consultation with disproportionate costs. employers. This little amendment suggests that, before Yet it need not take account of the needs of local laying down the law about what is needed locally, the employers, which is extraordinary. Amendment 93 chief executive should consult employers, trade asks that, in its duty to secure enough suitable education associations, and the sector skills councils—who are, and training, the local authority shall be asked to after all, the people who should know what sort of consult local employers, trade associations, chambers skills training is required. I beg to move. of commerce and, where appropriate, the sector skills council about the availability and suitability of provision The Earl of Listowel: What arrangements will there in education and training in their particular local area. be to consult local authorities about apprenticeships If the local authority is to be the commissioner of for social work? The Government have introduced a education and training facilities in the local area— degree course in social work, which is very welcome, including, importantly, training facilities for apprentices—it but it has attracted a younger group of people into is vital that it takes account of what the local needs are social work. There is great advantage in also securing in relation to the provision already there. The people people with life experience and maturity, and who know best about this are the employers and their apprenticeship is a good route for that. I would be representatives: the chambers of commerce, the trade interested in learning from the Minister, perhaps in associations and—at a national level—the sector skills writing, how consultation about apprenticeships for councils. The sector skills councils have their own social work will take place. knowledge of what goes on in localities. Amendment 93 asks directly that there shall be consultation. Baroness Howe of Idlicote: It seems totally reasonable Amendments 104 and 105 are applicable to Clause to include the amendment in the Bill. Consultation is a 41. Here again we are dealing with local authorities. part of the process to make certain that we get the Again the Government are laying down what local right policy. Unless we can be assured that that has authorities must do. In Clause 41(1)(a), they must happened anyway and will continue as the schemes are encourage those aged 16 to 18 to participate in education put into practice, it would be helpful to have the and training and in Clause (41)(1)(b), they must amendment accepted. “encourage employers to participate” in this provision. Again there is no mention of consultation. These two little amendments gently suggest it would be better if, Lord Ramsbotham: I am pleased to see the amendment. rather than banging on about it, local authorities got I mention one particular group representing employers, together with local employers and discussed with them which I believe has a greater role to play than it is how best to promote such participation. currently being enabled to do: the chambers of commerce. Having talked to representatives of chambers of With Amendments 182, 183 and 188, we jump to commerce, I know that they are very conscious that in Clauses 81 to 83 and the duties of the chief executive the areas for which they have responsibility, there is of the Skills Funding Agency. In those three clauses, great need for consultation between employers and the we are still dealing with 16 to 18 year-olds. Clause 81 is providers of apprenticeships to make certain that what about the provision of apprentice training places, Clause 82 is being offered is relevant. is about co-operation with local authorities and Clause In connection with the chambers of commerce—I 83 is about co-operation with employers. Clause 83 know that this is not the responsibility of the departments states that the chief executive of the Skills Funding who are handling the Bill, but so many aspects of the Agency must, various Bills going through the House at the moment “encourage employers to participate in the provision of training”. impact on what is going on in other ministries—I The amendment states that the chief executive, in mention that there is another burgeoning role that conjunction with the sector skills councils, should might be considered by the Government. Jobcentres consult and encourage employers and trade associations are not the ideal places for advising managers on —in other words, employers’ representatives. future movement when they are declared redundant. I wonder whether consideration might be given to giving With Amendment 188, we jump forward to Clause that role to the chambers of commerce, which understand 84, providing for those aged 19 or over. The wording is what managers need, what managers’ skills are and subtly different. There is no more talk about “enough where they might be applied. That is particularly suitable” education and training to meet reasonable relevant to making certain that they, as employers and needs. We turn to the weasel words of the clause: employers’ representatives, are consulted about all the “The Chief Executive must secure the provision of reasonable things to do with employers in the area where they are facilities”, working. 337 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 338

Lord Cotter: I think there is a very strong feeling in conversation between employers and their representatives this Chamber today about the importance of my on the one hand, and the LEA on the other. We noble friend’s amendment. Coming from a business should not presume that the LEA is always in a background, I feel that there is a great need for position to command the employer to interact with consultation not just on local issues, but with the the education process. It is not inconceivable that the particular requirements of particular businesses in employer might sometimes be better informed as to mind. what new provision would be useful or necessary. So we fully support the amendment in the name of the Lord De Mauley: Like other noble Lords who have noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, to make sure that the spoken, we feel that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, LEA must also consult employers and their representatives. has brought forward some very important amendments Amendments 182, 183 and 188 mean that employers in this group. The support from these Benches for and their representatives must also be included in the Amendments 93, 104 and 105 will be clear from the consultation process for those areas where the chief fact that my noble friend Lady Verma and I have executive of Skills Funding is responsible for education. added our names to them. This also seems to be a sensible approach to an area We have already expressed concern that the involvement that, after all, must be employer-focused and employer-led. of employers and the sector skills councils should be I look forward to the Minister’s response. more explicitly laid out in the Bill. Will the Minister not accept that it would be sensible for the authority Baroness Morris of Bolton: I, too, support the responsible for securing suitable education and training amendments. The LEAs will require all the help that in the local area to have to consult with local employers they can get to secure these places. I say that not least and their representatives? It seems to me that this because I read today in Children & Young People Now holistic approach would help to ensure that training that staff will be transferred from the Learning and was suitable not only for those who are going to Skills Council, but that in some places there are no receive it, but also for those local employers who hope staff, only a massive number of vacancies—for example, to benefit from having an increasingly skilled workforce. in the London area. Will the Minister say what will As the Bill stands, the local authority must already happen? They will not be transferring staff from the “have regard to”a number of sensible measures, including LSC to the local authorities, they will be transferring encouraging diversity in the education and training vacancies, so how will the staff be able to undertake all available, and increasing opportunities for people to the extra tasks that they have got to do? choose the programme most suited to them. These are admirable provisions, but they are all from the focus of the learner as the receiver. We think it would also be Baroness Blackstone: On the face of it, this is a helpful to have an employer-led influence on this rather sensible group of amendments. Obviously it is process. The Government themselves have used the very important for LEAs to consult sector skills councils. expression “demand-led”. We think this is what “demand- They are probably a better route than employers’ led” means. groups because they think very carefully about education Amendment 93 would secure that, at the very least, and training needs. My experience of consulting employers consultation with employers and their representatives more generally is that they are sometimes not terribly would have to take place. In this way, employers could clued up about what particular types of education and hope to have a direct influence on courses of training training are required for the sort of jobs which they and education. Does the Minister not accept that this seek to fill. However, I am not sure whether this really approach would help local communities match skills has to be in the Bill. to real jobs, which would then help to increase I have no idea what the Minister will say, but I am employment? We would argue that, particularly at this not absolutely convinced by the amendment in that I time of economic difficulty, it seems not only appropriate, cannot believe that any local education authority that but, indeed, urgent that the Government should do all takes on this general duty, which is what the clause is they can to increase the education, training and skills about, could properly do its job of developing sensible of our population. The critical focus of this skilling-up routes down which it should go to ensure that those should be on how best to match these skills to real in the immediate post-compulsory age group of 16 to jobs, so it seems appropriate that the LEA should have 18 year-olds have the right opportunities for education to consult employers and their representatives on the and training. I absolutely support the spirit that lies availability and suitability of provision within their behind this, but it is probably best to consult the sector area. skills councils than an all-embracing category of Amendments 104 and 105 further develop this point. employers. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has pointed out, The other point is that social work is, and needs to the Bill already states that LEAs must encourage be, an all-graduate profession, so I am not sure that employers to participate in the provision of education apprenticeship is the best route for people who will be and training, so we support the idea that this should social workers, although there is a strong case for also include consultation with employers and their having an apprenticeship route for those who will be in representatives. As it stands, the Bill seems to require support roles in residential care for children or the only a one-way dialogue. The LEA must “encourage” elderly, a small percentage of whom might want to employers to participate in this provision. We on these go on to be social workers. That, rather than an Benches would argue that this is completely to miss apprenticeship for social work per se, is the right way the point. It is important that there is a two-way in which to approach this. 339 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 340

The Earl of Listowel: I thank the noble Baroness for rightly reminded us of the reservoir of knowledge and what she has said. I quite agree that it has been very experience that exists in the colleges. They have the important to raise the status of social work by introducing contact with the employers and they know exactly a degree. I also quite agree that it is also very important what the needs are. We need a coherent, holistic approach that we recognise that child and family social to this. workers must have a sound understanding of the law We all agree that partnership working is the way and make sound analytical decisions about children in ahead and that consultation will take place. By its very families. nature as a customer-focused service, having insights I also hear what the noble Baroness says about into employer needs and getting feedback from employers certain other circumstances. It has been put to me that will be central to the delivery of services by the National it is important to have an apprenticeship route into Apprenticeship Service and, indeed, all the other services social work as a starting point from which there is an that will be housed within the Skills Funding Agency. opportunity to move to a higher academic level—to This means that active engagement with employers degree level—so I agree absolutely with what she said. and others will be a part of its core activity. We have My argument is that at the beginning there might be a already said that we will reflect further on whether foundation stage. One would not be a qualified social direct reference should be made in the Bill to consultation worker, but one would take steps towards being one. by the chief executive of skills funding with employers, That would be the apprenticeship aspect of the sector skills councils and others, and I repeat our qualification. The Open University already offers that genuine commitment to reflect on that. sort of apprentice first step into social work. Employers will also have a key role to play alongside There might have been a little absurdity in what I local authorities in ensuring that there are sufficient said about local education authorities consulting local high-quality training options for learners, improving authorities about availability, but I simply want to be the choice available to young people and ensuring that reassured that they will look inward as well as outward. they have a range of options to choose from. We are putting in place arrangements to ensure that this Noon engagement happens at every level, although we have tended to focus on employers, and I understand exactly Baroness Perry of Southwark: I have just had a brief why we are doing that. The noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, thought on what the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, spoke about their role and said that we talk about a said about consultation. It is perfectly true that the demand-led process. We do and we stand by that. But sector skills councils are where the serious thinking “demand-led” does not just mean employers; it means about the nature of training and so on is going on, and learners as well. We have to embrace both if we are consultation with them is key and a starting point. serious about reflecting on and reaching the needs of Nevertheless, further education colleges are, by their young people—and not-so-young people—in this process. nature, local institutions and it is the local employers, I make a plea that in this debate we do not forget, on the whole, who will be providing the apprenticeships. when we talk about this being demand-led, that we are They are the ones who have to be engaged sufficiently embracing not just employers but also learners. to understand the value of providing apprenticeships. My experience of negotiating with employers is that Clause 41 places a new duty on local authorities to this is the last thing on their list of priorities. They encourage employers to participate in the provision have other urgent priorities in keeping their businesses and delivery of post-16 education and training. I echo afloat and they need a lot of persuasion and engagement the point made by my noble friend Lady Blackstone if they are going to make a real success of the that it is hard to envisage a local authority that would apprenticeship scheme. So I have a great deal of sympathy not want to engage with employers, who, after all, are with the idea of consulting local employers, getting to going to be the source of wealth generation within know them and pushing ahead in their minds their communities. It is vital that they are brought into the importance of the apprenticeships that they will a consultative process. offer. Local authorities are well placed to perform that duty. They have a wealth of experience in dealing with The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, employers, particularly through their education business Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord partnerships and their existing local strategic partnerships. Young of Norwood Green): These amendments mirror Employers are also critical members of consortia and the focus of the debate that we had on our second day the 14 to 19 partnerships in delivering 14 to 19 reforms in Committee concerning consultation between the in local areas. When we talk about employers being National Apprenticeship Service—as part of the Skills engaged at every level, we mean that; indeed, they Funding Agency—employers, sector skills councils already are. At a regional level, the employer voice will and others. I share the view that local authorities, be heard through the regional development agencies when engaging in the commissioning process and drawing and membership of the regional planning groups, up plans, need to encourage employers to participate. which have an interest in ensuring that the economic We could have a semantic debate about exactly what and skills agency for the region is reflected in local that means but I do not want to. I agree with the point authority commissioning plans. made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, that we That said, the arguments in relation to consultation want employers to be involved in the consultative with employers by local authorities are different from process—and not just employers but also sector skills those that apply at the national level to the chief councils and others. The noble Baroness, Lady Perry, executive of skills funding. The main relationship with 341 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 342

[LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN] The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, asked about the sector skills councils will rightly be with the National LSC staff transferring to local authorities. We are still Apprenticeship Service. Local authority engagement working to match LSC staff to posts in local authorities. will be through the provision in new Section 15ZA We must and will ensure that local authorities have the that requires local authorities to co-operate with the skills to conduct these functions. If there are vacancies, chief executive in the provision of apprenticeships for we will identify them in time to enable local authorities young people. We feel that these are the appropriate to access staff with the right skills before the transfer channels. Of course, employers make up and lie at the is effected, subject to the passage of the Bill. We take heart of the sector skills councils. A requirement on on board the noble Baroness’s point—we have to deal each of the 152 local authorities to consult directly with the vacancy situation. every sector skills council would place a significant The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, asked about burden on them. They have to be cognisant of what apprenticeships in social work. That is being considered sector skills councils are doing. However, when we by the social work task force. We are talking about a talk about placing a requirement on them to consult work-based qualification. I noted the range of views directly, we have to recognise that there are 25 sector that were expressed on this issue. I share the perspective skills councils. We want to ensure that, when local of the noble Earl, who said that we should not rule out authorities are drawing up their commissioning plans, an apprenticeship route. We may in the end determine they are responding to the needs of employers and that a degree is required, but a vocational route would seem learners. to be of benefit in attracting a wide range of people to social services. That is not to denigrate in any way the While I understand that you might want to include requirement for degree qualifications. a direct duty on local authorities to consult local businesses on the exercise of their duties under new In conclusion, I say that wherever you look in the Section 15ZA, we need to look at how that will function process of commissioning and engagement, we are and whether there really is that need to do it in that involving employers. I stress that we need to ensure way. First, it is a natural consequence of the duty in also that young people between 14 and 19 have real Clause 41 on encouraging local businesses to provide choice through information, advice and guidance. We apprenticeships and other training that there will be a want to ensure that the autonomous providers—schools consultative dialogue. Secondly, this dialogue is already with sixth forms, FE colleges, academies, private training happening through the education business partnerships, providers—can each determine their capacity, ethos, existing local strategic partnerships and, at a regional curriculum and methods of delivery, own their own level, the regional development agencies. It would buildings and land and employ their own staff. They seem unnecessarily burdensome to overlay that with a clearly possess autonomy and are involved in the further requirement to consult. Thirdly, there is already commissioning process. Local authorities are strategic an expectation that local authorities will consult their leaders in their area, bringing a holistic view to the communities on issues that affect them, which they commissioning of all services for young people. Employers, would do anyway in the normal course of events. as I said, engage through local strategic partnerships, Finally, employers will also be involved in co-operation which drive local area agreements. arrangements with colleges through the duties in I repeat our commitment in relation to putting Clause 248, which were introduced by amendment sector skills councils in the Bill. We indicated our in another place. I hope that all this reassures the concern not to introduce anything that would make Committee about the centrality of employers to these the Bill a hybrid. We will look at that concern. I repeat reforms. also our assurance that we are as concerned as all noble Lords to ensure that there is a clear understanding. I turn now to specific points that have been made We are talking not just about participation by and, first, to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord employers but about making sure that they are involved Ramsbotham. I agree that chambers of commerce in the consultation process. We will look also at that have an important role to play. Last year, I spent a lot and come back to noble Lords to make clear exactly of time going around them when they were dealing where employers will be involved in the commissioning with things like skills pledges. They will have a seat on process. the employer reference group. In addition, the Secretary of State will issue guidance to the Skills Funding Agency about whom it should consult. We expect that Lord De Mauley: Does the Minister accept that to include the CBI, the British Chambers of Commerce these amendments would not turn the Bill into a and, probably, the Federation of Small Businesses. hybrid? At the moment, I do not think that I am empowered to deal with the noble Lord’s point about jobcentres Lord Young of Norwood Green: Certainly they have and managers. If I had a view, I would not necessarily been framed in a way that specifically does not mention dismiss the approach, but I would say that we should sector skills councils. I do not feel absolutely confident, ensure that jobcentres are able to respond to the but clearly that was the intention. I assure noble Lords circumstances that currently prevail and to deal with a that I am not attempting to dismiss the amendments wide range of people. I know that some of those who on those grounds. go into jobcentres and agencies are people who We understand noble Lords’ concerns that we get would not normally have been expected to be in that this right. I have tried to make the point that, when we situation. We need to look at how that service is being are talking about consulting, with each local authority provided. consulting sector skills councils, we need to get that 343 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 344 right, bearing in mind that there are currently 25 of provision, including those under 25 subject to a learning them. We want to make sure that, in getting employer difficulty assessment. Furthermore, there is a clear consultation right, which we need to do, we do not duty on LEAs to secure only “suitable education and create a burden that they cannot fulfil. training” to meet the “reasonable needs” of persons in I repeat the two commitments that we have made the area. This is a straightforward and equitable way on this issue, in relation to employers and the role of of allocating resources. The long-standing concept of sector skills councils. I hope, in pointing out the areas reasonableness is well established and of course is where employers are already both represented and understood in law. It limits access to provision which part of that commissioning process, that the mover of may be unnecessary and, importantly, reasonableness the amendment will be prepared to withdraw it. We takes into account financial cost. In addition, local will come back before the Report stage. That is a clear authorities are required to provide for the efficient and commitment. effective use of public funds and, of course, are audited on that basis. 12.15 pm Despite these clear limits on what LEAs have a Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I am grateful to the duty to provide, the Bill offers a further qualification Minister for his reply and to all Members of the for LEAs to avoid post-16 education provision that Committee who have supported me on these amendments. gives rise to “disproportionate expenditure”. I am The Minister made the important point that we are grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, who has talking not just about participation but about involvement. already expressed our shared fundamental concern The noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, said that she about this issue, and indeed our amendments could does not think that this needs to be in the Bill. I think well have been debated together. I ought to clarify that that this notion of consultation does need to be in the the Special Educational Consortium shares our discomfort Bill, because of this element of involvement. That with the term “disproportionate expenditure”, particularly would be very helpful. I take on board the fact that the in relation to local education authorities, and agrees Minister is thinking hard about whether we can that reference to it should be deleted from Clause 40 accommodate the sector skills councils. I would point altogether, as per this amendment. out that, as far as Amendment 93 is concerned, we are not suggesting that local authorities need to consult I am also concerned that the extra barriers faced by all the sector skills councils. The amendment says disabled people in developing their skills are most “including, where appropriate”the sector skills councils, likely to incur additional costs that could be judged as and it would be only those sector skills councils that disproportionate. LEAs may refuse a service by arguing were involved with the particular industries in the that the provision is either unsuitable or unreasonable, locality—at least, that is what I envisage. but where these arguments have failed, I strongly I think that the notion of consultation is important. believe that they should not have this further get-out A great many employer organisations have been talking option. The Government have argued that new Section to many of us about their feeling that employers are a 15ZA(5) specifically states that the provision is not to little bit taken for granted. Clause 40 is all about local be viewed as giving rise to disproportionate expense education authorities having to take a view on what is just because it is more expensive than something needed in the provision of education for 16 to 18 year-olds comparable. In practice, this does not set any restrictions in their area. I agree that “demand-led” refers both to on how LEAs can define “disproportionate expenditure”. employers and to young people—that is also important— On the contrary, where a learner has identified suitable but to some extent young people vote with their feet. education provision that meets their reasonable needs, We need to know that, if there is a shortage of a they should have the right to access it whether or not particular skill in an area, that is taken into account in they are disabled. the planning process. That is where the whole process of consultation comes in. I am grateful to the Minister We do not expect a blank cheque, of course. However, for his commitment to think about this further and the issue of expense often arises where the needs of a bring it back. With those assurances, I beg leave to learner with a disability can be met only in an expensive, withdraw the amendment. out-of-county residential placement. Where this happens, we believe the problem to be the lack of good quality Amendment 93 withdrawn. local options rather than a person with a disability claiming disproportionate resources. Until the system Amendment 93A not moved. can offer a better choice of provision, we hope that individual disabled people will not have their life chances curtailed because the only suitable placement is relatively Amendment 94 expensive. In terms of redress, during the Committee Moved by Lord Rix debate in another place, the Government indicated that an individual may challenge an LEA if they feel 94: Clause 40, page 23, leave out lines 36 to 41 that the authority is wrongly using disproportionate expenditure as a defence. However, I feel that it is not Lord Rix: As your Lordships know, the Bill transfers appropriate to leave it to the individual to enforce the the duty to secure learning provision for 16 to 19 year-olds duty on the LEA through judicial review where this from the Learning and Skills Council to local authorities. will be an additional barrier to disabled people as well, LEAs will specifically have regard to the learning of course, as associated costs. I am deeply concerned difficulties of their population of learners in determining about the responsibility this places on people with a 345 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 346

[LORD RIX] particular, the failure to provide suitable education to learning disability, particularly those with limited support, learners with more complex needs will be monitored and so I fear that failure to provide them with suitable and addressed. However, improving accountability can education and training may frequently go unchallenged. only benefit all learners and allow LEAs to map I have a number of specific questions around provision and address gaps in the market appropriately. disproportionate expenditure about which the Minister The amendment mirrors the sufficiency duty contained has been given prior notice. Perhaps noble Lords in the recent Childcare Act, a widely supported measure would like to hear them. If expenditure is to be deemed at the time. The Government state in their guidance disproportionate, what would it be disproportionate that the childcare sufficiency duty is designed to help to? For instance, should it be measured against a local local authorities to identify the nature and extent of authority’s overall budget, the education budget, the need for provision and, where there are gaps, plan expenditure on other students or limits set by other how to support the market to address them. The local authorities? New subsection (5) states that: measure includes giving scope for a three-yearly review “Provision is not to be considered as giving rise to disproportionate of the provision for people with disabilities and learning expenditure only because it is more expensive than comparable difficulties. Youngpeople with disabilities and learning provision”. difficulties would be involved in the audit and the Is expenditure therefore disproportionate if it is results of the audit would be published. This process significantly more expensive? If so, how much more? will go to the heart of ensuring that the apprenticeship Would it be twice as much, or perhaps 20 per cent scheme leads to truly positive outcomes for learners more? I hope that the Minister can clarify how local with a learning disability and would avoid the past authorities should measure expenditure in order to mistakes of many courses which ultimately lead nowhere. judge what is disproportionate. I beg to move. The word “reasonable” is well established and understood by the courts in relation to disability legislation, The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount and it includes cost considerations, but so far as I am Ullswater): I must advise the Committee that if the aware, the meaning of “disproportionate expenditure” amendment is agreed to I shall not be able to call has not been decided by a court. Why is this confusing Amendment 100 because of pre-emption. term being used instead? How do reasonable needs and disproportionate expenditure interact? Is it possible Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My name is linked to have a need that is completely reasonable, bearing with those of the noble Lords, Lord Rix and Lord in mind that “reasonable” is a term that considers Low, on the amendment, to which I happily give cost, and yet for that need not to be met if it is support. The key issue has been raised by the noble considered to incur disproportionate expenditure? Lord, Lord Rix: that is, what is disproportionate? Finally, it is dubious why provision that specifically How do we judge disproportionate in this sense? I “might give rise to”disproportionate expenditure should look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. be avoided. The wording implies that potential future As to the proposed new clause in Amendment 143, costs should be considered by the local authority. again as the noble Lord, Lord Rix, has said, it is Does this, for instance, mean that someone might be necessary that local authorities should have a more denied provision in their local authority just because targeted approach to those with learning difficulties. years later it could oblige an authority to provide that The proposed new clause sets out in detail precisely provision to many more learners? what is required. We have all had experience of how As regards Amendment 143, Clause 40 creates a there are often difficulties in delivery despite the legislation general duty on LEAs to secure suitable provision for that has already been passed, and it is useful to spell post-16 education, but it does not give any more out in some detail precisely what is required. I give my entitlement to provision than already exists. This means wholehearted support to both amendments. that, to a large extent, the provision available will be at the discretion of the LEA. While this is not necessarily 12.30 pm a bad thing, it will be absolutely vital to ensure that LEAs are required to monitor and report on their Lord De Mauley: Like the noble Baroness, Lady performance so that they can be held accountable to Sharp, I have put my name to Amendment 94 of the the public for their decisions. noble Lord, Lord Rix, not because I want to see In Committee in another place, the Government subsection (4)(e) of new Section 15ZA of the 1996 Act argued that structures are already in place to ensure removed from the Bill but because it is important to that local authorities can be held to account for the probe the Government’s intention on this point. The delivery of their new duties under the Bill. LEAs will paragraph enters the proviso that the LEA must make become part of the existing outcomes-focused the best use of its resources and must not provide for performance management system supported by anything that would, government offices, and they will also be assessed and “give rise to disproportionate expenditure”. inspected by Ofsted. We feel that these mechanisms I am curious about how the Government intend to are not robust enough to ensure LEA accountability enforce this area of the Bill. While it is admirable, it and we need a far more targeted accountability will be difficult to enforce for two main reasons. First, mechanism. it will be difficult to measure what the best use would The amendment is particularly concerned with how be of an authority’s resources, given that it will have to an LEA’s performance of this duty towards learners provide very different services for a range of diverse with learning difficulties will be audited and how, in groups of people. Each group will have its own needs 347 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 348 and concerns, and I cannot see how the LEA will just their educational provision but the work of the decide which service will accord with the best use of its authorities right across the piece. In that inspection of resources. work, Ofsted is looking at value for money and at Secondly, and this echoes the concerns expressed by whether a local authority is having regard to its expenditure other noble Lords, this provision may provide the and making the best use of scarce resources. This, get-out clause for local education authorities that are frankly, is overegging the pudding. on a tight budget and might therefore seek to reduce spending on providing for those with learning difficulties Lord Addington: This is, effectively, the second go or other disabilities. I sympathise with the LEAs in we have had. The previous time the Committee sat, this respect; we on these Benches think that the devolution more or less the last thing we discussed was—as the of the duties involved in providing education will first amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rix, puts stretch resources and put a great deal of strain on it—these few lines in question. As the noble Baroness, already struggling authorities. Nevertheless, it is also Lady Blackstone, has pointed out, they merely add to vital that those with learning difficulties or any form the confusion and raise worries that may prove to be of disability are not left behind. false. That may not be the Government’s intention but these lines are quite clearly confusing the issue. Which Subsection (5) of the new section attempts to bits of these six lines are the most important in which clarify that expenditure should not be considered situation? That is one question that we have not had disproportionate just because it may be more expensive answered. than comparable provision. However, as the noble I gave examples from my own experience of where Baroness, Lady Sharp, said, more clarity is still needed people say, “We can’t do it if it’s something new”. if we are to ensure that LEAs are able to run educational There is a huge history of that in all forms of special provision that will include all relevant people while educational needs provision—“Oh, they can’t do that simultaneously making the best use of resources. because they’ve never done it”. Even if the current Amendment 143 seeks to ensure that local authorities Government are better than any Government before, have a duty to carry out assessments of the sufficiency which is a defence that the Government make, my of the provision of suitable education for learners with standard response to that is that they should be; they learning difficulties. I will be interested to listen to the have more resources, more knowledge and more ability. Minister’s response to it, given that I am not sure how, What is the benefit of these six confusing lines? The without such assessments, it would be possible to noble Lord, Lord Rix, pointed out that we have a ensure that provision for learners with learning difficulties good concept of reasonableness established in law, was being adequately provided. If such an assessment while the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, has said cannot be made, how will it be possible to make that this seems to be confusing because there are improvements to the system? I look forward to hearing already audits and tests for what is best value for the Minister’s response. money on various occasions. Why do the Government desperately need this? If they get rid of it and go back Baroness Blackstone: I cannot believe that the to established principles, they will probably save everyone Government intend by the inclusion of this clause to a great deal of time and energy. hit the provision of education and training for young people with learning difficulties or with a disability. Lord Lucas: Surely the answer to that is simple. The While I entirely support what the noble Lord, Lord Government know exactly what is going on at the Rix, and two opposition Front Bench spokesmen are moment; they know the current form of words that saying about the importance of providing adequate the noble Lord, Lord Rix, explained so cogently, and provision for those who have special needs, and about they have chosen a different form of words in order to the fact that such provision might cost more than alter the entitlement of the people who are subject to would be the case for young people without those this subsection. Is it to increase their entitlement or special needs, I cannot believe that that is what lies decrease it? I think I know the answer to that. behind the inclusion of this clause. I am sure that the Minister will put us right on that issue. Lord Ramsbotham: I strongly support what my My problem with the clause is that I cannot quite noble friend Lord Rix has said. I cannot help but understand why we need to say in legislation of this reflect on one word that crops up over and again when sort that a local education authority should make the one considers the provision of these services: consistency. best use of its resources and that it should avoid My noble friend has already mentioned that there is a provision that gives rise to disproportionate expenditure. problem; certainly, in different parts of the country It goes without saying that every local authority should there are different provisions for people with the same make the best use of its resources in everything it does need. That is something that I am sure we would all and should not have disproportionate expenditure, like to see eliminated. which I take to mean unnecessarily high expenditure As my noble friend has said, Clause 40 says that, when it could be done just as well for less money. “A local education authority in England must secure that Why has this clause been put in the Bill? It looks enough suitable education and training is provided to meet the like central government, in teaching-grandmothers-to- reasonable needs of persons”. suck-eggs mode, telling local government what to do. However, there is another complicating factor on top We already have extensive regulation of local government of the inconsistency that that will expose between all expenditure, with a lot of pressure on value for money the local education authorities. Clause 59, which we through the work of the Audit Commission. We already have not yet come to, says that the Young People’s have Ofsted inspecting local education authorities—not Learning Agency, 349 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 350

[LORD RAMSBOTHAM] category, it implies that all the other categories are not “must secure the provision of financial resources to … local included. Therefore, it gives precedence to making the education authorities, for the purposes of their functions in best use of resources only in this case, and reduces the relation to education or training”. pressure on local authorities in any other provision So on top of the inconsistency of the local education within this statute. I have been told by lawyers again authority provision, we now have the YPLA responsible and again that that is the effect of doing this sort of for funding. Is there any intention that the YPLA thing, so I hope that the Government will pay close should be directed to make certain that there is consistent attention to what the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, funding for all this provision? Otherwise, what is the said. situation into which we are going to be launched? The Earl of Listowel: I support Amendment 143 in Baroness Howe of Idlicote: I sympathise with the the name of my noble friend Lord Rix, having taken amendment and thoroughly support the way in which part in the Childcare Act, which placed a duty on local my noble friend Lord Rix presented it. From some of authorities to secure sufficiency of childcare places. I the briefing that I have had from the department, I think it established the principle that there needed to think that the intention behind this was in fact a good be assessments if the duty was to be complied with. I one: at the same time as hoping that there would be also ask the Minister—perhaps he would be kind value for money, which is a perfectly sensible thing to enough to write to me—to assure the Committee that say, the intention was that the local education authority there is a sufficient mechanism to ensure that there is would take into account the special needs of people an assessment of whether the learning needs of young with disabilities. I have some sympathy with the people in care and care leavers are met. I am grateful Government, but equally I feel that they have made for what has already been done in the Bill for care the situation worse. Maybe the answer will be to take leavers, particularly in securing sufficient apprenticeships the whole thing back and try to do it as simply as as young people leave local authority care. A local possible to get the message across. authority should have a fair idea of how many young people leave care each year and should be able Above all, I was going to make the same point as to seek employment opportunities and apprenticeships my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham. We all know that to meet that need. I would be grateful to hear what sort of there is inconsistency and a postcode lottery as far as mechanisms are in place in that regard, especially local education authorities are concerned. By no means since we know that local authorities have not, until are those with most resources necessarily the most now, been very good at providing apprenticeships. generous. Let us put it like that. I hope very much that we will get some reassurance. I hope that there will be 12.45 pm something rather more dramatic from the Government, Lord Young of Norwood Green: As my noble friend and that they will take this whole thing away. Quite Lady Blackstone reminded us, we need to establish clearly, it is not going to work. That was outlined in that making the best use of their resources is a key the other place and it was definitely stated again in principle of how all public bodies do business. your Lordships’ House. Subsections (4)(e) and (5) ensure that. That is in learners’ interests because if local authorities commission The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds: I too support particular provision in a way that does not give value Amendment 94 and express my gratitude to the noble for money, there will be less money available to support Lord, Lord Rix, for tabling it. I will concentrate other learners. I know that throughout this debate particularly on the use of the word “might” rather noble Lords have taken the view that this is somehow than “would” in line 37 of subsection (4)(e) of new a get-out clause and that is its sole purpose. That is by Section 15ZA of the 1996 Act. It seems quite inevitable no means the intention and I will demonstrate why that this subsection will lead to less provision for those that is the case as I proceed. with learning difficulties because the way in which it is There is a real need for us to ensure that, even in phrased means that a local authority is bound to pay special needs provision, we are still getting value for what seems unnecessarily immense caution to just the money. It is not an attempt to say that we do not want possibility that there might be disproportionate to go down a particular route. I am sure that the noble expenditure in the future. I am aware of how much Lord, Lord Rix, could find a number of examples of effort and energy goes into providing often excellent where he would have to choose between providers and provision for those with learning difficulties. There might find that one offered better value for money will, it seems, inevitably be a restriction in that provision than another. It is not an attempt to avoid responsibilities if we do not do something about this whole section of or not provide a service. We are trying to make sure the Bill and, in particular, line 37. I hope that the that, in getting the best value for money, we can reach Minister will be able to comment on the use of the the widest possible group of people who need this word “might” in that line. service. We are all starting from the same intention and should not see value for money as meaning that Lord Elton: Having arrived late for the debate I will we will deny people rights and opportunities. I would restrict my comments to an endorsement of one of the argue that it is the other way round. We are making points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, sure that more people get the opportunities, services namely the unacceptability of paragraph (e) of the and support that they need. new section. It activates a principle that is often referred This is not about comparing the provision needed to in this House—inclusio unius est exclusio alterius. for one group of learners against the provision needed If you apply a specific requirement to a particular for different groups with different needs and saying 351 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 352 that meeting the needs of one group, because it is Ensuring value for money when commissioning provision more expensive, involves incurring disproportionate will free up resources to support those young people expenditure. It is about looking at the needs of young with the most profound needs. people and the provision available and commissioning the provision that meets those needs, while also providing Amendment 143 would introduce a new duty on value for money. Requiring value for money when local authorities to conduct a full assessment of the commissioning education and training is not a new suitability of provision for learners with learning difficulties requirement. Under Section 2(3)(e) of the Learning and/or disabilities at least every three years. The noble and Skills Act 2000 the Learning and Skills Council is Lord, Lord Rix, raised this issue at Second Reading required to, and this amendment has been modelled on that included in the Childcare Act 2006. As my noble friend Lady “make the best use of the Council’s resources and in particular avoid provision which might give rise to disproportionate Morgan has written to the noble Lord to explain, we expenditure”. are putting in place a system to ensure that this There is no suggestion that this requirement has in any planning function takes place. However, we do not feel way affected the LSC’s ability to provide appropriate it necessary to legislate for this specific administrative learning provision for young people with learning process and I am happy to set out the reasons why for difficulties and disabilities. Indeed, one consistent message the Committee now. to come from the conversations that I have had with I should like to reassure the Committee and my Skill, the RNIB and others in the past few weeks noble friend that we are putting in place a system is that the LSC has a very good track record in this which will ensure that this essential planning process area, despite having this disproportionate expenditure takes place annually, as part of the annual commissioning criterion. cycle, and not just every three years, as proposed by the amendment. Local authorities will not be on their Lord Rix: The Learning and Skills Council was a own. They will come together, and they have already centralised funding programme with annual targets agreed to do this, as sub-regional groupings that will set each year by the Secretary of State. Local authorities act as planning bodies. We will support them to build are entirely different. They have complex structures, on their existing expertise in this area. They will be increasingly stretched budgets and political considerations. required to have regard to guidance on this annual There will be far more scope for local variability and commissioning cycle—this is the point made by the considerable risk that some disabled people will miss noble Lord, Lord Rix—which will be set out by the out, based on a local authority’s circumstances and YPLA in a national commissioning framework. This their particular problem. guidance is currently being developed in collaboration with our key delivery partners and stakeholder groups, Lord Young of Norwood Green: I will return to that including the National Association of Specialist Colleges. point. I think that that is where the role of the YPLA We are not trying to develop this guidance on our will prove important. own. We are consulting the people and the representative It was felt that it would be helpful to replicate this bodies that we know are experts in this field. provision for local authorities. Although they already have a general duty, under the Local Government There will be a dedicated national team in the Act 1999, to secure value for money, this does not Young People’s Learning Agency for learners with apply to the YPLA. By giving both local authorities learning difficulties and disabilities. Regional specialists and the YPLA a comparable duty which specifically will provide advice and expertise to local authorities to relates to education and training provision, we can be help them in, among other things, planning specialist sure that they approach such issues in the same way. If provision across local borders, something we know is the proposed amendment was made, the commissioning vital. The React team based at the Local Government system could, in fact, be less effective. Association is already working with authorities to prepare them to take on their new responsibilities. It is There can be no question that replicating this clause also important to remember that local authorities will is somehow a get-out clause for local authorities. As I not be starting from a zero base. Local authorities will have already mentioned, their duties to secure provision already have been working with many of the young for all young people in their area, including those with people concerned as they were growing up. They already learning difficulties or disabilities, is set out clearly in hold a significant amount of information about their new Section 15ZA. We would not want to do anything needs through the client case load information system to undermine this. database and will be further supported in future with Let us look at the track record. Funding for specialist strategic analysis and historic data on learner trends provision has increased significantly over recent years, and local needs, provided by the YPLA. from £35 million to fund 3,000 learners in 2000, to £180 million for 3,500 learners in 2006-07. The DCSF Accountability was raised by a number of noble has made available additional funds through the Invest Lords. There is a range of ways in which local authorities to Change programme to improve provision for learners will be held to account. As part of the existing system, with learning difficulties locally. We are committed to local authorities will be performance-managed in relation continued investment in this area and we have been to the outcomes of young people in their area. clear that this will remain a priority when responsibilities Government offices will provide support and challenge transfer to local authorities. This clause is about ensuring to ensure satisfactory performance. Assessments and that we make the very most of this investment for the inspections by Ofsted and other inspectorates will benefit of the young people at whom it is aimed. provide a further check on local authority performance. 353 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Swine Flu 354

[LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN] Learning and Skills Council to local authorities when In addition, as I mentioned earlier in the debate, the it is not necessary, because it is already embodied in YPLA will have a clear role in assuring coherence of legislation. regional plans. Lord Young of Norwood Green: I am conscious of I want to come back to some points that were the time. I take account of the concerns that have been made. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, raised the raised, which I understand. As I said, we are still in issue of consistency. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord discussion with the SEC. We have already said that we Rix, the consistency we hope to achieve will be through do not want to do anything which in any way undermines the national commissioning framework and a national the role of local authorities in meeting these vital funding formula and we seek consistency in all areas. needs. The best thing that I can do in the circumstances If necessary, the YPLA can be directed by the Secretary is to take away the points that have been raised and of State, through Clause 73, and we will examine come back to noble Lords before Report. On the basis whether there is a problem as this rolls out, subject to of that assurance, I hope that the amendment will be the passing of the Bill. withdrawn. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, tends to see the glass as half-empty rather than as half-full, in Lord Lucas: I apologise for doubting the Government’s this area, certainly, and maybe in others. We will seek intentions. The noble Lord has made it perfectly clear to increase the entitlement because, by providing value that their intentions are pure, and that this is just a bit for money, more money will be available for more of drafting mess, which as the noble Baroness, Lady learners who need it most. The right reverend Prelate Blackstone, so rightly says, deserves to be cleared expressed his concern that the driving force would be up. If the noble Lord’s explanation of the word to have less provision. We would say, look at the track “disproportionate” and its effects is right—I cannot record. We still had disproportion there. In fact, we see how that can be construed from the clause as it have increased support and that is right, because we sits—and if it is intended to mean what the noble Lord know that demand has increased. said it is intended to mean, it is entirely unnecessary I was asked about “disproportionate”as a comparator. because it falls exactly within the duties as specified by The comparison is between the provision and its cost. the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone. Is the cost proportionate, taking all relevant considerations The Earl of Listowel: Care leavers may be outwith into account? This is about value for money. That is this amendment, but at the very welcome annual meeting why new Section 15ZA(5) says what it says. Relative of the regional commissioning for educational provision cost is not the only thing for local authorities to an item might be put on the agenda suggesting that consider. Others will explain better than I can that talks be held with the YPLA about local authority value for money is not necessarily about getting the apprenticeship provision for care leavers. That would cheapest—we know that from bitter experience in involve only a few children leaving care each year. many circumstances—but about getting the best that There should be some mechanism to ensure that local you can for the money. A local education authority authorities think very carefully about this and supply will have to make its own decisions about the best use as many as possible. of resources. It will definitely have to consider its own budget and may well look at what other LEAs are Lord Young of Norwood Green: We will come back spending for guidance. to the noble Earl on that. I apologise for missing that My noble friend Lady Blackstone says she cannot out. believe that what we are doing is necessary; that it goes Lord Rix: I am most grateful to all noble Lords who without saying. Why are we doing this? Well, there is a have spoken in support of these amendments. I am general duty, as I think she referred to, in the Local very grateful to the Minister for saying that he will Government Act 1999, which already applies to local take the provision back, look at it and consult again authority functions, but not to the Young People’s with the SEC. I hope that I can be present at one of Learning Agency, which has specific value-for-money those meetings, which will probably take place during duties similar to those in Clause 40(4)(e) and (5). the recess as I cannot believe that we will reach Report before October. In that case, and as I have just had a Baroness Blackstone: I absolutely accept that there message to telephone my home urgently, I beg leave to may be a need to apply this to the Young People’s withdraw the amendment. Learning Agency, but what I cannot understand is why, because it is necessary in that respect, it also has Amendment 94 withdrawn. to be applied to local authorities, when there is already a general duty on local authorities in the 1999 Act. House resumed. The danger is that every single piece of legislation brought to this House or another place that entails Swine Flu expenditure by local authorities will then have these Statement clauses put in them. That is what I am seeking to prevent. Perhaps the Minister will take this back and 1.03 pm consider whether we need to replicate it here. I can see Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I should like to why the Government may have needed it when legislation repeat a Statement made in another place. was introduced on the Learning and Skills Council “With permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to some years back, but it looks to me as if there has make a Statement on the A(H1N1) swine flu pandemic. been an automatic application of what applied to the As of today, there are 7,447 laboratory-confirmed 355 Swine Flu[2 JULY 2009] Swine Flu 356 cases of swine flu in the UK, of whom a significant noted clear scientific advice that the majority of cases number have been hospitalised. Three people have in the UK have so far not been severe, with those sadly died, all of whom had underlying health problems. catching the virus making a full and fast recovery, Since the first UK case was confirmed on 27 April, though a minority of people here and overseas have health protection officers, NHS staff from across the had more serious illness and some have died. UK, and Department of Health officials have been As we move into the treatment phase, Ministers leading the fight to contain the virus. Last week, we have considered whether we continue to offer antivirals started to see a considerable rise in swine flu cases, and to all patients displaying symptoms or whether a more the emergence of hotspot areas in London, the West targeted approach should be adopted, focusing on Midlands and Scotland. Since then, cases have continued those most at risk of becoming more seriously ill. to rise significantly. There are now, on average, several When very little was known about the disease—and hundred new cases a day. especially given the reported fatalities in Mexico—using This creates challenges on the ground and pressure antivirals prophylactically was sensible to protect people, on services, but the response from the health community and may have helped contain the initial spread of the has been tremendous. I hope the House will join me in disease. putting on record once again our sincere thanks to the During the containment phase, experts have had staff in the Health Protection Agency and the NHS, time to study the virus. Some experts now suggest that general practitioners and all those who work in primary since the virus has proved largely mild, antivirals care. Our efforts during the containment phase have should be used only to treat those in designated “higher given us precious time to learn more about the virus, risk groups”; that is, those more susceptible to developing to build up antiviral and antibiotic stockpiles, and to serious illness or complications. These are all the groups develop a vaccine. at risk from seasonal influenza, plus pregnant women We have always known it would be impossible to and children under five. They argue that overusing the contain the virus indefinitely, and that at some point drugs can increase the chances of antiviral resistance, we would need to move away from containment to and exposes too many people to the risk of side effects treating the increasing numbers falling ill. That is why from the medicine. last week I announced the move to the outbreak The Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies management phase. This gave hotspot areas, where says that, on balance, the science points towards a there is sustained community-based transmission, more targeted approach, but acknowledges that this is a flexibility to deal with the virus. “finely balanced” decision. Expert advice points to the Scientists now expect to see rapid rises in the number fact that, as this is a new virus, its behaviour cannot be of cases. Cases are doubling every week and we could predicted with certainty. Swine flu is different from see more than 100,000 cases per day by the end of seasonal flu in that most serious illnesses have been in August, although I stress this is a projection only. As younger age groups, as happened in all three 20th-century cases continue to rise, we have reached the next step in influenza pandemics. A doctor faced with a symptomatic our management of the disease. Our national focus patient cannot yet predict with certainty the course of should be on treating the increasing numbers affected their illness and whether or not they will be in the by swine flu. Based on experts’ recommendations, and small proportion who may become more seriously ill. with the agreement of Health Ministers across all four Given this, we have decided to take a step-by-step Administrations, I can today tell the House that we approach. This means that, as in the outbreak will now move to this treatment phase across the UK. management phase, we will continue to offer antivirals This will mean that in England the Health Protection to all those who have contracted the illness. However, Agency will take a step back and primary care will it remains a matter of clinical discretion to decide take the lead in diagnosing and distributing antivirals. whether antivirals should be prescribed in individual There will be an immediate end to contact tracing cases, particularly in circumstances where doctors are and prophylaxis in all regions; GPs will now provide likely to be contacted by patients with coughs, colds clinical diagnosis of swine flu cases rather than awaiting and the worried well, in addition to those with swine laboratory test results; and primary care trusts will flu. Expert advice emphasises the high importance of now begin to establish antiviral collection points where treatment with antivirals of those in the higher risk necessary. This new approach will mean an end to the groups, so we will issue clear guidance to doctors to daily reported figures from the Health Protection Agency. ensure that those at higher risk get priority access to Our policy on schools is that they should not close antivirals within 48 hours of the onset of symptoms. because of individual cases of swine flu but they could I acknowledge that this is a cautious approach. close if the particular local circumstances warranted Many people will be able to recover from swine flu it. For example, there may be grounds for closure if a without the need for antivirals, and may therefore significant number of pupils or teachers are ill. The choose not to seek treatment. However, we are much HPA will advise on outbreak control issues as usual closer to the time when we will receive the first doses and closures would be reported to the Department for of pandemic flu vaccine. This will potentially offer Children, Schools and Families. high protection. In the mean time, it is prudent to use I must emphasise to the House that the Civil our only current measure against the virus—antivirals—to Contingencies Committee has had lengthy discussions, the maximum effect. The science indicates that as we drawing on expert scientific advice, about who should discover more about the virus and develop a more be treated with antivirals if they contract swine flu. precise categorisation of risk groups, we are likely to Health Ministers across all four Administrations have reassess our approach and move to a more targeted 357 Swine Flu[LORDS] Swine Flu 358

[BARONESS THORNTON] coming weeks. The national and local response to this use of antivirals. We will keep this matter under review, situation is quite rightly under continual review, and I with advice from SAGE, and will update the House as accept that it is now appropriate to modify our approach and when this is necessary. to the way that we tackle the disease. Our emphasis Today we will set out these new arrangements through now, as the Minister said, has to be on mitigating its a short guide that will be e-mailed to NHS staff, and impact on those who have contracted it, taking into will be available online to the public. I know that local account the severity of the virus. That must mean that GP surgeries and hospitals, particularly in hotspot we make sure that those who are most at risk of severe areas, are coming under increased pressure. So it is morbidity or complications as a result of the virus are important that we do everything we can to reduce the treated rapidly. strain on local health services and begin to establish Against that background, I have a number of questions. and use alternative routes for people to receive treatment. Am I correct in understanding from the Statement Initially, this will be via www.nhs.uk or the swine flu that the stockpile of antivirals will be reserved exclusively information line; subsequently, it will be via the National for symptomatic patients and those who are seen as Pandemic Flu Service. being most at risk, and that post-exposure prophylaxis So, if people think they have swine flu, they should is no longer a strategy that will be pursued, other than first go online and check their symptoms on www.nhs.uk with the approval of a GP? I ask this because I wonder or call the swine flu information line on 0800 1 513 513. about particular situations; for example, what is the If they are still concerned, they should then call their policy to be applied in prisons? Are healthcare staff GP, who can provide a diagnosis over the phone. If and employees of the emergency services not seen as swine flu is confirmed, this will give them an authorisation possible deserving cases for post-exposure prophylaxis? voucher, which a flu friend can take to an antiviral Can the Minister confirm that a decision on whether collection point to pick up their antivirals. This may to close a particular school will be taken on the basis be a pharmacy or a community centre. of a risk assessment by the HPA, particularly in the As cases rise further, we will move to a system context of the year groups involved, but that closure whereby cases are diagnosed and dealt with by the of a school should no longer be seen as the preferred National Pandemic Flu Service. This will take pressure option, as I think it has been up to now? Most schools off GPs by allowing people to be diagnosed and given are about to break up for the holidays, which is their antiviral vouchers either online or via a central fortunate, but this means that when term is about to call centre. start again in September there may be insufficient Today, I can tell the House that preparations are information available on which to base a decision on now at an advanced stage, and that we expect the closure. Will schools be advised about the transmission service to be ready when it is needed. At that point, if rates in their own areas and other relevant information, people have swine flu symptoms, they should go onto including what they should do before the start of the National Pandemic Flu Service website, or ring the term? dedicated call centre. However, people in the higher-risk What advice is being given to the public as regards groups should still contact their GP. avoiding exposure to potential infection? It has Finally, I would like to update the House on vaccines. been reported in the press that there is a school of We have now signed contracts to secure enough vaccine thought which states that it is in the interests of fit and for the whole population. We expect the first batches able-bodied people to try to contract the virus in order of vaccines to arrive in August, and around 60 million to build up immunity to what may be a more severe doses will available by the end of the year—enough for version of it in the future. Can the Minister take this 30 million people—with more following after that. opportunity to indicate that this is not sensible advice Administering vaccines will need to be prioritised. We and that the current virus, although milder than initially will make a decision on this when we know more feared, is nevertheless capable of making people ill or, about the risk profile. indeed, very ill, and that the prudent course is to try to avoid it? Most cases of swine flu have been mild and we are The Minister said that swab tests for swine flu are in a strong position to deal with this pandemic. But we no longer being taken as a matter of routine and that, must not become complacent and, while doubt remains as a result, the running total of cases will no longer be about the way the virus attacks different groups, today’s a matter of public record. I am sure she will agree that decision on the move to the treatment phase reflects that is unfortunate, and I cannot help observing that if our caution. the flu line were up and running, that situation would I commend this Statement to the House”. not have arisen, because we would have had a better My Lords, that concludes the Statement. handle on the numbers. However, can the Minister confirm that the collection points for antivirals are now determined in all areas? Can she also confirm 1.13 pm that the interim helpline for those who suspect that Earl Howe: My Lords, from these Benches, I should they may have contracted H1N1 is working satisfactorily like to thank the Minister for repeating the Statement, and that it has the capacity to deal with the very high which makes it very clear that we have moved into a volume of calls which are likely to arise during the new phase of the epidemic involving a much greater next few weeks? If there are likely to be many tens of number of current cases than we were looking at a thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of new cases month or so ago, and the probability of an even higher by the end of August, what guidance has been issued number, by several orders of magnitude, during the to NHS trusts to enable them to cope with the high 359 Swine Flu[2 JULY 2009] Swine Flu 360 numbers of hospitalised patients that can be expected? The noble Baroness made the important point that What is the Government’s view of the capacity of our there will be a changed role for the Health Protection system to cope with critical care cases on the scale that Agency. It will now step back and the immediate is implied? Has modelling been done which shows the registering and treatment of the virus will go to primary probable impact of severe cases on critical care beds? care, in particular to GPs. Has the department estimated What is the clinical attack rate of this virus? the extent to which drawing back the HPA from its Finally, the Statement referred to the vaccine currently front-line role will jeopardise the tracking of data that in preparation. The question of who is given the it has been gathering about the progression of the vaccine will be decided, in the words of the Statement, pandemic? Does the changed role of the HPA offer “when we know more about the risk profile”. any risk to the spotting or detection of a mutated virus? The noble Lord, Lord Darzi, recognised as a Can the Minister elaborate on what is meant by this? key problem the chance that the virus might mutate, Do we not already have sufficient information to tell which could mean that the antivirals that we have are us who is most at risk? If not, when do the Government not so effective. expect that we will have enough to go on? The Government have, after all, already defined the at-risk groups as Following the noble Earl, Lord Howe, I ask what regards the use of antivirals. At all events, will the the Government plan to do, particularly over the Government undertake to make public the basis of critical period of September, October and November. prioritisation once this has been determined? During that period, the start of the academic year, not only will schools be going back but a number of I end by joining the Government in expressing my students will be coming to this country to universities. condolences and sympathy to the families of those As always, we welcome them, but that will coincide who have died of the virus. I also pay tribute to the with the peak activity period for the seasonal flu staff of the NHS, including officials, GPs, those in programme. Is the department now preparing to give primary care, in pathology labs, in hospitals, and the additional plans and guidance to primary care staff to Health Protection Agency, who are working so hard cope with a potential spike in demand over those three on our behalf. We wish them well during what look months? certain to be some very difficult and pressurised few weeks ahead. Can the noble Baroness update the House—this was not in the Statement—on the liaison that the Government have had with foreign Governments and 1.20 pm with the Centre for Disease Control in Atlanta and Baroness Barker: My Lords, I register our condolences the European health observatories? We can then from these Benches to the families of those who have track any parallels or distinctions between the died. I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement progression of the virus in this country and its progression in this House. Given the dramatic increase in the abroad. number of people who have contracted flu, it is right In the Statement, the noble Baroness mentioned that we should reassess whether the strategy that the the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies—the Government have been following continues to be relevant aptly named SAGE. She said that the change in policy and the right course of action. to target only high-risk groups was based on SAGE’s While the Government’s actions to date have rightly evidence but that that decision was, in its words, been focused on trying to contain the virus and then to “finely balanced”. How quickly have the Government mitigate the effects of its transmission, there is a acted on the advice that SAGE has given to date? How parallel activity to monitor the information about the quickly could they act were SAGE to give different incidence of the disease and to evaluate the effectiveness advice if that balance changes in future? of the NHS response. That is in many ways as valuable I, too, congratulate the scientists and front-line an activity. It will set out some valuable learning practitioners in the NHS on the way in which they points, were there to be a future pandemic of another have approached this pandemic. It is clear that the disease. I put my questions to the Government in that NHS has had to deal with a most difficult public light. health problem. Individuals recognise that it is a public The noble Baroness said that the Government were health risk, but it is one that they cannot measure and now moving to the treatment phase. I understand the quantify; they do not yet know how serious this condition reasons for that, but what lessons have been learnt will be for them and their families. So far, the NHS has from the containment phase of the strategy? She indicated managed to keep the tenor of its information campaign that there had clearly been a failure to contain the correct. In the face of some rather hyperbolic headlines, virus. That failure was not entirely unexpected, but the NHS is to be congratulated on having got on with what have the Government learnt so far about the doing a difficult job in a temperate manner. ability of the NHS to contain outbreaks? How would that be of value in any future pandemic? To what extent has the progression of the epidemic matched 1.27 pm predicted modelling, which I believe the NHS has Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I thank the noble undertaken for some considerable years? Earl and the noble Baroness for their support and for I have one nagging question about the Statement. their recognition that the NHS has had pandemic Was the decision to offer antivirals only to high-risk plans in place and that the Health Protection Agency, groups made purely on scientific advice or was it an with the NHS, has to date done an excellent job economic decision as well? What is the department’s working to limit the spread of this virus. I will attempt response to that? to answer the questions that they raised. 361 Swine Flu[LORDS] Swine Flu 362

[BARONESS THORNTON] aim is to divert those patients into the swine flu The noble Earl asked about the policy of antiviral support mechanism through the web and a telephone prophylaxis and treatment. There will be an end to line. antiviral prophylaxis in the norm. Treatment will be How will intensive care manage this? We know that for those at higher risk of becoming severely ill. There fluctuating demand for and capacity in the NHS are will continue to be a clinical discretion to offer antivirals part of normal working activity, but in May we published to any patient should the need arise, particularly those guidance for the NHS entitled Pandemic Flu: Managing who we recognise would need that support, such as Demand and Capacity in Health Care Organisations. health service workers. I had not thought of prisons; We are giving support as far as we can. that is a good case. I will refer that back to the department for consideration. I am sure that somebody Communication is very important. A communications there will have thought about it. strategy goes with this, which I have already outlined. The flu surveillance information on infections is On school closures, as I said in the Statement, the co-ordinated and collated by the Health Protection HPA will help with the risk assessment, but this is not Agency Centre for Infections. It receives regular reports now seen as a preferred option. The noble Earl made from separate schemes run in England, Wales, Scotland the point about schools being about to break up and and Northern Ireland, which use the data provided by restarting in September and about our need to ensure networks of GPs. The GP network includes 3,300 that the information is available to them so that they surgeries covering more than a quarter of the UK are in a state of preparedness. It is a point well made. population and provides reports on symptoms of flu Indeed, it is in hand. Running alongside the activity of in patients as part of the QSurveillance system. A moving to treatment is a huge communications campaign further 100 surgeries across the country collect information to inform people and health service workers. That will on flu symptoms as part of the Royal College of make sure that schools and all those who need to will General Practitioners’ surveillance. That is during the know what is going to happen and how it will happen—in normal flu season but the fact that we are moving into what order—in a timely fashion. this new phase does not mean that we will not be Who will be offered antivirals? The use of antivirals surveying and counting. for prophylaxis will stop. As I said, they will be used The noble Earl asked how we predict the disease only in exceptional circumstances. With transmission will progress. Obviously, we cannot predict the spread in the community, the policy of widespread prophylaxis of the disease precisely, but we know that it has proved is no longer appropriate. There will continue to be to be mild, except in a very few cases. Apart from the clinical discretion to offer antivirals to any patient figures that I gave in the Statement, I cannot give any should the need arise. They will be offered to people further information. The noble Baroness and the noble who are diagnosed with swine flu. Anyone who thinks Earl asked how we will manage the transition. At the that they have swine flu has the right to ask their GP moment, we have an interim service, which we felt we for the health service to provide them with antivirals. needed to introduce immediately because of the increase The noble Earl raised the issue that I had anticipated in swine flu. We recognise that it is important to about what the media have called “swine flu parties”. ensure that the systems are sufficiently tested before The Chief Medical Officer has made a firm statement they are used. The interim solution has now been about that, which I can do no more than repeat: tested. It has the capacity to cope. A full programme “We would never recommend intentionally exposing anyone of testing has been built into its delivery line, before a to swine flu. It is seriously flawed thinking to allow the virus to full system kicks in in the autumn. spread unabated through swine flu parties. We don’t yet know The noble Baroness also asked about the lessons enough about the risk profile of the virus and, whilst it has been mild in the UK, in some parts of the world young, previously that we have learnt from the hot spots and the period healthy, adults have died. Parents would never forgive themselves that we are just passing out of. The Health Protection if they exposed a vulnerable child (perhaps a contact of a child at Agency, with the NHS, has done an excellent job in a party) to serious illness. We need to be mindful of any future limiting the spread. We have learnt that what we need development of the virus and we remain vigilant in monitoring to do when we realise that we have hot spots is the disease”. immediately to give flexibility locally to reduce the I do not need to add to those words. number of patient swabbings, to reduce the pressure What support is being made available to primary on GPs to allow them to treat symptomatic patients care trusts, GPs and the health service? We are aware on the basis of their clinical judgment, to ensure that that GP practices must expect to be under considerable other staff such as primary care nurses can swab and pressure during the flu pandemic. I have already mentioned to ensure rapid access to antivirals. That is the phase the local flexibilities that we have introduced in the hot that we are moving into now. The lesson that we have spots to enable primary care to sustain its response. learnt is that that is how we need to proceed. The national flu service has been designed to minimise On the international situation, we fully recognise the pressure on GPs and primary care teams in a the importance of ensuring proper protection for countries widespread outbreak by allowing patients to receive in Europe and globally. I probably need to write to the their antiviral medication via the web, a telephone call noble Baroness about the spike of students coming or a local network. That means that GPs can concentrate back to this country in September and October; that is their expertise on treating patients whom they would a point very well made. We support the European normally see, plus those who have complications of Commission in helping those countries without contracts the flu, as opposed to the potentially very large number to obtain vaccine for a minimum of 5 per cent of their of patients who think that they might have flu. Our population. We continue to work with the ECDC and 363 Swine Flu[2 JULY 2009] Swine Flu 364 the World Health Organisation and we will ensure that will be dependent on operational decisions about how we do not duplicate what the World Health Organisation the service will be delivered, but they are likely to does but that our work in Europe complements it. include national media briefing, advertising and direct marketing. Communications to GPs will be through 1.36 pm existing Department of Health channels. That will mean, for example, that in hotspots, where we know Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, I thank there is a great deal of pressure, the distribution of the Minister for repeating the Statement by the Secretary antivirals might not be through local pharmacies; it of State, which I welcome, because it helps to clarify might be through a community centre. It might be government thinking and intentions on this important done in a way that removes pressure from the existing topic. health services. On the other hand, in a place where The Minister will be aware that the House’s Select that is not the case, it will be done through the usual Committee on Science and Technology this morning GP and pharmacy services. met the Minister of State for Public Health to take evidence on this and related matters. The first piece of evidence was that a Statement would be made later in Baroness Gale: My Lords, I thank my noble friend the day. However, I can fairly say that that did not the Minister for giving this report as it affects England, inhibit what was a vigorous but good-natured discussion. but as I live in Wales, will she say what consultations One piece of evidence available to us and to the there will be with the Health Ministers in the devolved relevant Minister was from the Royal College of General nations, to ensure that there is a continuous, concerted Practitioners. I agree with all that has been said positively campaign throughout the whole of the UK? Will she about the important role that general practitioners also say how the publicity will be handled about the play, but there were some questions in the evidence website, the telephone line, and other means of that we received. For example, headings coming through communication, to ensure that everybody is informed the website from GPs included lack of information and knows exactly where to go? and conflicting advice and variation in support from primary care trusts. There was a positive side to those Baroness Thornton: My Lords, as I said in the topics as well, but there was a serious expression of Statement, we are working very closely with the devolved concern from the royal college, which represents the Administrations. The arrangements for the National first-line troops in this area. Pandemic Flu Service in each devolved Administration Can the Minister assure us that the effectiveness of are still being finalised, and are, of course, the object the provisions in the Statement will be measured? It of consultation and agreement as we move forward. would be wrong to say that the jury is still out, because This is not something that can possibly be imposed on the jury is still taking evidence about the effectiveness anybody: it has to be done through co-operation. of the policies outlined. It would be good if we could While it is the case in England that we are taking the be assured, for example, that organisations such as the precautionary approach as outlined in the Statement, royal college will be consulted and that the information at present in Scotland and Wales they are more likely coming back from its network of GPs will help to to confine their antiviral treatments to high-risk groups. inform the modification of government policy in the But as we discussed already, scientific opinion is very weeks and months to come. balanced on that issue. I think my noble friend is asking me, “What do I do Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I was aware that my if I wake up and think I might have swine flu?” The honourable friend Gillian Merron was giving evidence answer is, that you check your symptoms if you are to the committee, and therefore worked out that several online, with www.direct.gov.uk or www.nhs.uk, or you members of your Lordships’ House might be better phone the flu line. If you are still concerned, you informed than I am, having just had a refresher course, should phone your local GP, who will be able to as it were. provide a clinical diagnosis over the phone. If swine The point about information is well made. In preparing flu is confirmed, they would give you a voucher number myself for the Statement, I went online and tested it by which you should give to your flu friend. A flu friend Googling and other ways. I decided that I had swine is, obviously, a neighbour or relation or somebody flu and filled in the questionnaire to see what happened near you who could collect those antivirals from a at the end. I did not use the phone, because I thought collection point. that that would be improper, but I thought that it would be useful to see how those things work. I must As the number of cases rise, we will need to move to say that I found them both easy and accessible. I know a different system, where cases are diagnosed and that not everybody has access to the internet and dealt with by the National Pandemic Flu Service, to would know how to do that, which is why the telephone take the pressure off GPs. For those people who are line and the telephone number that went out to every isolated or vulnerable, the job of GPs and the National household are so important. Pandemic Flu Service, when it kicks in, will be to deliver antivirals to people’s homes. I take the noble Lord’s point, and am absolutely sure that the royal colleges will be fully involved in both consultation and evaluation as we move forward. Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, like the noble Plans are being finalised at the moment at both national Lord, Lord Sutherland of Houndwood, I have also and local level to communicate to GPs and service had the privilege of sitting on the Select Committee users about what will be expected of them when the upstairs, and we got a lot of useful evidence this service is introduced. The exact nature of those messages morning from the colleague of the noble Baroness, the 365 Swine Flu[LORDS] Swine Flu 366

[LORD JENKIN OF RODING] I want to concentrate on asking her about community Minister of State for Public Health. I think there is preparation and the responsibility of the general public still some confusion as to how we are going to move in this whole situation. I was pleased about the very from what the noble Baroness described as the interim brief mention in the Statement of flu friend networks, arrangements for the distribution of antivirals, to the and then about her more positive comments made full-blooded national flu line service, which will bypass since then in her answers to questions. It seems that the GPs and the existing channels and give the patient, these networks are going to be crucial in getting to diagnosed over the telephone, a number with which people whom other people will not get to. they can collect their antivirals from a collection point. I was also very pleased that the Minister affirmed I would be grateful to know whether there will be a that she recognised that there are many people without specific decision on when we move from the interim access to the internet. Indeed, there are those who arrangements to the final arrangements. Will that be have no access to phones. One of the most important generally across the country or will that happen region things in this situation is to do all that we can to ensure by region, as appears appropriate? contact with those who are the most deprived in our I remain very confused about the Government’s communities and who may well fall through welfare policy on this. Like my noble friend, I regret that the gaps. Churches and faith organisations have a particular full-blooded flu line was not up and running by the responsibility, in that they are among those who may end of May, as had originally been promised. We now have contact with those who do not fit in with the way are not going to have it until the autumn. Therefore, it in which our society normally operates. What are the seems to me that the transition from the interim to the Minister’s reflections on the need to get to those who final scheme is a very important stage, and I wonder if will not be found by many of the methods about the Minister could tell us a bit more about that. which she has spoken so well in the Statement and in her previous answers? Baroness Thornton: My Lords, the noble Lord is exactly right. That is why we are we are clearly calling Baroness Thornton: My Lords, the right reverend this an interim phase. That means that the Health Prelate is quite correct to point to the importance of Protection Agency is stepping back from front-line community organisations and their resilience to support response, and primary care is taking a lead in diagnosing people during this outbreak. and distributing antivirals. We are ending contact-tracing and prophylaxis in all areas, and will now be identifying In addition to publishing extensive guidance for by clinical diagnosis or from the pandemic flu service. social care providers, people will be encouraged to People who are diagnosed with swine flu will be offered build up networks of flu friends from among their antivirals. We are preparing the National Pandemic family, friends and neighbours who may be willing to Flu Service for launch within the next couple of weeks, support them should they become ill and need not and my understanding is that it will happen across the only someone to collect their antiviral medication UK—although if that is wrong, I will write to the from the nearest collection point and deliver it back to noble Lord and the House about that. That will provide them but other support: namely, food shopping and people with alternative routes to access antiviral treatment, getting in basic supplies. Everyone may be vulnerable and will relieve pressure on primary care. The noble during a widespread outbreak, although people with Lord raises exactly the key point: this has to backed by pre-existing conditions or a lifestyle that leads to their a full communications strategy, aimed both at the being vulnerable may be in much worse circumstances. health service and the general public, to explain why That is why churches and third-sector organisations things have changed and what this means for people. have a key role to play in identifying needs and supporting That is a major part of this work. people, particularly those who are socially isolated. We are finalising the plans for the public Third-sector groups, charities and churches could communications on the move to the treatment-only be flu friends to vulnerable and hard-to-reach people approach. There is some potential for regional variation and contact them through their local strategic in the initial approach, and it will partly depend on the co-ordination group. Many of them are already involved amount of pressure that is brought to bear on the in their local resilience planning, so I expect that many local health service in that area. So in areas like parts of them are already gearing up to help with this. It is of London, where there are very large numbers and very important that they do so. We recognise that they large demand, the collection of antivirals will be provided have an important role to play. by other means. The strategic health authorities are already testing the PCTs’ ability to do that and the Lord Desai: My Lords, I, too, join my noble friend operational arrangements to do that. We also recognise in thanking all those in the NHS and the Health that there has to be a clear rationale behind who will Protection Agency who have helped. The way in which or will not get antivirals, and that has to be communicated the WHO has maintained vigilance and has been able clearly in our national messaging. The noble Lord is to call each stage before the pandemic has also been quite right. remarkable. I found that very reassuring compared with the reaction to the financial crisis, in which The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds: My Lords, I, economists have said different things and not all people too, thank the Minister both for the Statement and for agree; some people have protectionist views about her response to the questions. I also thank those in the what to do. At least here we are operating together as a NHS and outside who have done so much already to global community and helping each other. That ought respond to the threat of a pandemic. to be mentioned and noted. 367 Swine Flu[2 JULY 2009] Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 368

I have always felt that the term “swine flu” is The restrictions can prohibit: residence at a particular unfortunate, but no one has taken H1N1 and made it address—for example, in the vicinity of a previous into a nice little name. I call it “Hen-one flu”. If that is victim or known criminal associates; contact with a helpful, I give it free to the Government. I know it particular individual—for example, a previous partner sounds a bit like “Henman”, which is unfortunate, but who has been a victim of domestic abuse; or attendance I think “Hen-one” would be better. at certain events—for example, extremist rallies where I have one question. I may have got it wrong, but the offender has a history of violence. Additionally, a did my noble friend say that the number of people person subject to a violent offender order will have to who are reported as having swine flu will cease to be comply with the notification requirements of the order. made public at some stage? That would be very An offender will need to inform the police annually of unfortunate, because we really must have total basic details such as his or her name and any aliases transparency, even if the situation becomes very serious. used, date of birth, home address and any other address at which he or she regularly stays. Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I reassure my noble The breaching of a violent offender order or its friend that I said that the daily reporting of HPA notification requirements is a criminal offence that is figures will not continue because we are no longer punishable by up to five years’ imprisonment. We are testing for this. That does not mean that the surveillance also strengthening the notification requirements for systems that we have in place will not periodically offenders who are subject to a violent offender order produce figures on the progress of the disease and who intend to travel overseas or who identify themselves what we are doing about it. to the police as having no sole or main residence in the UK. I absolutely agree with my noble friend about the role of the WHO and the importance of us continuing The police currently have a limited ability to monitor to work very closely with it and support it. The UK these offenders. It could clearly pose a public protection has been in the lead in supporting the WHO in its risk if police officers could not track the location of work to ensure that we support those countries that these individuals because they may be out of the need it, that we do not duplicate each other’s efforts country or have no sole or main UK residence. We and that we ensure that information flows across the want to close down the possibility that those subject to world that will help us to take the right decisions for a violent offender order could exploit the notification our own country, for the rest of the world, and indeed requirements deliberately to mislead or exacerbate the for people who, as the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, police management of their risk. reminded us—I include my own family in this—travel The proposed amendment to Section 110(5) therefore the world all the time. makes it a requirement for a person subject to the violent offender order notification requirements who has no sole or main residence in the UK to provide Criminal Justice and Immigration Act his notification weekly rather than annually. More 2008 (Violent Offender Orders) frequent reporting will allow better monitoring of their location and will help to close the loop for (Notification Requirements) Regulations individuals who may claim to be homeless to evade the 2009 police. Motion to Approve The proposed amendment to Section 111(1) makes it a requirement for a person subject to a violent 1.55 pm offender order and who intends to travel outside the United Kingdom to notify the police of their plan to Moved By Lord Brett leave the UK, the method of their travel, the countries they intend to visit and when they plan to return. This That the draft regulations laid before the House will ensure that, should it be necessary, the police can on 9 June be approved. liaise with the authorities in the destination country as Relevant document: 17th Report from the Joint appropriate. Importantly, the offender will also be Committee on Statutory Instruments. required to notify the police of all their personal details again on their return, which will ensure the consistency of data. Lord Brett: My Lords, under Part 7 of the Criminal I commend to your Lordships this secondary Justice and Immigration Act 2008, violent offender legislation, which is designed further to minimise the orders will come into force on 3 August 2009. These risk to the public from violent offenders. are civil preventive orders that are designed to protect the public from the most dangerous violent offenders: those offenders who continue to pose a high risk of Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the Minister serious harm to the public at the end of their licence or for introducing this order, which is not very contentious term of imprisonment. but gives rise to a couple of questions that will probably On application from the police, a magistrate’s court be relevant to the next order, too. may impose a violent offender order containing As I understand it, people who are of no fixed prohibitions and restrictions on an individual. These abode or who have no address are one category of restrictions may prevent the individual from going to people who will have to give notification every week of any specified premises or place, attending any specified their current whereabouts. That is presumably if they event or having any contact with a specified individual. intend to travel at some stage. I do not quite understand 369 Criminal Justice and Immigration Act[LORDS] Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 370

[BARONESS HANHAM] and by noble Lords around the House. Nothing that I that. Are they going to have to give information about say in relation to this order should be taken as in any their whereabouts weekly to the police whether or not way diminishing our opposition to orders of this sort. they are going to travel? That was not quite clear in the It is not surprising that these orders have not been Minister’s statement. brought into force yet. However, before they are brought Arising from that, who is going to keep track of into force, the legislation is being altered because the this? One of the conditions in court that one can put legislation did not, for some reason that perhaps the on people who are on bail is that they should report to Minister can explain, stipulate how frequently a person the police on a regular basis. However, the police do must report if he does not have a home address, as not always know whether they have reported or not, defined in Section 108, which is his sole or main and it is not a very reliable handcuff, as it were. I just residence in the United Kingdom and he has to give, want to be sure where that information is going, who “the address or location of a place in the United Kingdom where is going to deal with it and who is going to be running he can regularly be found, or if there is more than one such place, around keeping track of it if the information is not such one of them as the offender selects”. given. The Act and the particular matter that we are concerned Secondly, why three days’ travel? You can leave the about today in Section 110(5) says that the applicable country for one day or 30 days or whatever. I do not period for a notification and for registering is, understand why this is limited to kick in for somebody “in any case where subsection (6) applies, such period as may be who wants to go away for three days and over. Youcan prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State”. say you are going away for any length of time. My own We did not know when the Bill was passed how often view is that it would be better if it kicked in at any time you would have to report. Suddenly, just before the they wanted to go abroad for any length of time. That orders are brought into effect, we are told in one would make this a much tighter system. sentence in paragraph 11 of this order that someone Is the assumption that the intention of these people has to report every week. What has happened? Why is to return? Or is there an assumption that they may could the Government not make up their mind when intend to come back but it does not matter if do not the Bill went through as to what the appropriate come back because the information will still be passed period was for the homeless person or the person on? I only ask that because under the heading, “Additional without any particularly fixed abode to have to report information to be disclosed”, it says firmly: to the police? Why now, before the order is brought “That the information is— into effect, is it stipulated to be one week? (d) where the offender proposes to return to the United Kingdom The rest of this order is dealing with very ordinary on a particular date, that date; and administrative matters that I do not propose to comment (e) where the offender proposes to return to the United Kingdom on, but changing the legislation so as to reduce the at a particular point of arrival”. period to one week is something for which I would They may never propose to come back at all so what is request an explanation from the Minister. the lock on that? One bit of information does not seem to be there. Lord Brett: My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their They are asked to give their national insurance number contributions and support, with some questions. I but there is no mention of passports. Presumably at recognise the principled position of the noble Lord, the moment you still cannot leave the country or get Lord Thomas of Gresford, and his party in respect of back in without some indication of identity or a these orders. A number of points were raised which I passport. I would have thought that one of the most will seek to address. The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, valuable bits of information for the police to have pointed out that there have been, on other occasions, would be the passport number, but that is not mentioned. perhaps not the best of monitoring systems. For violent I have no objection to the order but I think it might be offender orders, it is intended that the information will helpful if we could have an explanation. be provided by the police and the police will undertake the monitoring of violent offenders. It is an annual Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, we debated at monitoring in terms of the information required of length violent offender orders when the matter came someone with a static home, if I can put it that way. before Parliament in the Criminal Justice and Immigration For homeless people, I do not think we have changed Bill, and we made it quite clear that we oppose the the legislation. As we said we would do, we have whole concept of civil orders made under civil procedures provided in secondary legislation, after consultation for evidence and giving power to the magistrates to with the police and others, that a weekly notification is impose conditions covering a wide variety of an appropriate monitoring period for people who are circumstances which could impinge very considerably peripatetic or homeless. If people are moving around, on the life of the individual who is made subject to they can no doubt inform the police where they will be that order. It must be borne in mind that that person in a week’s time and report to a police station in that will, by definition, have served his period of imprisonment location. If they are static for any period of time, it and will have served also the period that may be should not be too onerous an obligation to pop into necessary for supervision after that period of the police station and say, “I am still here”. imprisonment has expired. When we made these Why three days? Much of what this order seeks to objections, they were fully supported by the Joint do in terms of notification for those travelling abroad—for Committee on Human Rights, by the noble Lord, homeless people it is automatic and applies whether Lord Kingsland, on behalf of the Conservative Party, they are travelling or not—is based on best practice 371 Criminal Justice and Immigration Act[2 JULY 2009] Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 Regs 2009 372 from the regimes that currently exist for sexual offenders, The information required by these regulations will who we monitor when they go overseas. Three days, mean that convicted terrorists cannot get around the after consultation, was chosen to be the most appropriate notification requirements by claiming that they were period. That has proved successful for another group overseas. It will also enable the police to share appropriate of people monitored and hopefully will prove successful information with overseas authorities or to make a in this case. The noble Baroness raised the question of decision on whether to apply to the court for a foreign passport numbers, which are currently not required. travel restriction order to stop the person travelling However, we will keep that under review and, if thought overseas or to particular countries. necessary, it could be introduced by secondary legislation at a future date. In essence, these regulations impose notification The legislation enables the making of regulations to requirements for convicted terrorists in relation to require more frequent reporting of a person of no foreign travel which are very similar to those that fixed address. Thus, flexibility was always envisaged. It already exist in respect of sex offenders. They require is preferable to set this at a period which is not too the person who is intending to travel abroad for three onerous on the individual concerned and yet gives the days or more, which we discussed on the previous police the required monitoring information that they order, to notify the police before they leave the United need. I hope I have answered the questions of the Kingdom of their intended date of departure, the noble Baroness and the noble Lord. I commend the country they will be travelling to, their point of arrival regulations to the House. in that country and, where they hold the information, the points of arrival in any other country they are Motion agreed. travelling to, the carriers they intend to use, the place they intend staying on their first night abroad and the date and place of their intended return to the UK. On Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (Foreign return, the person will also be obliged to notify the Travel Notification Requirements) police of the date and place they re-entered the UK, if Regulations 2009 they have not notified these details already. Motion to Approve The information required by these regulations will supplement the other information obligatory under 2.09 pm Part 4 of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 in helping Moved By Lord Brett the police to manage the risks posed by convicted terrorists once they have been released from custody That the draft regulations laid before the House or detention. The information will, for example, enable on 23 June be approved. the police to know if a convicted terrorist is intending Relevant document: 19th Report from the Joint to travel to a country where terrorist training is available. Committee on Statutory Instruments. However, I should like to make it clear that, while individuals will have to disclose their travel information, the requirements will not stop the person doing anything. Lord Brett: My Lords, I beg to move that the The requirements are not intended as a punishment Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (Foreign Travel Notification and the foreign travel notification requirements do not Requirements) Regulations 2009, which were laid in prevent an individual from travelling overseas, nor is draft before this House on 23 June, be approved. notification onerous on the individual. Its purpose is Under Part 4 of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, to provide information about the whereabouts of certain convicted terrorists are required to comply individuals who have been convicted for terrorist crimes with a notification scheme. This includes persons that will help the police in managing the risks that they aged 16 or over who have been convicted in the United may pose to public safety. Kingdom of specified terrorism offences or offences with a terrorist connection and sentenced to 12 months’ Due to the serious consequences of a terrorist or more imprisonment or detention, and persons convicted attack, the police and security service need to be given of similar offences overseas who are made subject to a all proportionate tools to help them become and remain notification order when they come to the UK. The aware of any potential threat or compromise to our majority of the notification requirements are set out safety. Critically, we know that many countries are in the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, but Section 52 able to facilitate terrorism and, due to the complexity allows the Secretary of State to make regulations and increasing international nature of terrorist plots, requiring a person who is subject to the notification it is vital to be made aware whether convicted terrorists requirements to notify details of travel outside the are to travel to a country where they could prove a United Kingdom. threat to public safety. Public safety is paramount and it is the responsibility of the Government and the security and law enforcement I believe that these measures are justified and will agencies to do everything possible to protect our citizens help in the monitoring of potentially dangerous from the threats posed by terrorism. The notification individuals, and the security services have recently requirements are an important part of our preventive stated that they believe these regulations will be of measures and, as part of that, I believe that the people benefit to counterterrorist policy. It is vital to strike subject to those requirements should be obliged to the balance between protecting the rights of the individual notify details of their intended foreign travel plans to subject to the requirements and mitigating any potential the police. threat, thus ensuring the safety of the community at 373 Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 Regs 2009[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 374

[LORD BRETT] Lord De Mauley: Amendment 95 would ensure a large. I hope that this House agrees that these draft bare minimum of standards of education in sixth regulations achieve this and I commend them to the forms. It would add a paragraph (f) to new Section 15ZA House. in Clause 40 to impose a duty on local education authorities to ensure that each sixth form must offer Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the Minister A-level courses at least in English, mathematics, the for repeating that order. As far as I am concerned, the three sciences, history, geography and at least two questions arising from this order arose on the previous modern languages. The amendment may appear somewhat order, so I have nothing more to ask. prescriptive. Nevertheless, it encapsulates a real concern Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes: My Lords, the Minister that many important academic subjects are becoming has said that these people are not being punished. the exclusive preserve of the independent sector. We Surely, whether they are being punished or not, the think that it is essential that this range of subjects order rightly makes it clear that they are highly undesirable should as a minimum remain open to all those who people in many countries. The only countries which wish to study them. Surely it is wrong that there probably would welcome them would be those countries should be a disparity in opportunities for choice between which want to train them further in terrorist activity. the independent and state sectors. Therefore, this seems to be a necessary but very My honourable friend in another place, Nick Gibb, longwinded and effuse way of making that point in quoted the figures from 2006 and it would be helpful the order. to reiterate them. In 2006-07, 145 schools with a sixth form did not enter any students for A-level history; Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, my only question 96 did not enter any for A-level maths; 115 did not is why is there a maximum five years’ imprisonment enter any for A-level biology; 187 did not offer A-level imposed for failing to do any of those things? For chemistry; 247 entered no one for A-level physics; and example, if a person comes back into this country and 264 entered no one for A-level geography. It simply is fails within three days to notify the police, he is subject not feasible that no one living in the catchment areas for to a potential sentence of imprisonment of up to five these schools wanted to study the subjects. Does the years. Is that the same for sex offenders when they Minister not share our concern that there should travel abroad or is this just a figure that has been not be subjects that are allowed to become dominated plucked from the air by the Government? by the independent sector? Does she not agree that Lord Brett: My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their it should be a top priority to ensure that every contributions. On the points made by the noble Baroness, student has the practical opportunity to study the Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, the truth is that we are A-level course that most suits their needs? Does responsible only for our citizens who live the country. she accept that this is not what is happening at the They will be subject to the immigration status and visa moment? requirements of any country to which they want to go. It should be noted that the subjects listed are not They will be a matter for the sovereign country that exceptional or unusual. The list is not highly specialised they are in. In that sense, it fits in, but I do not think or arcane. These are basic subjects that we might that it is a longwinded way of achieving that. We want reasonably expect would be provided in any sixth not to punish individuals who may have turned their form. The Minister will doubtless tell me that partnerships back on any form of terrorism, but to ensure that we and federations exist that allow a pupil to travel from have the information to enable us to monitor and to one school to another in search of their next lesson, protect our citizens. but I cannot accept—at least with regard to these The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, asked subjects, which should be available to all students as a about the penalty. The penalty for breach of these basic minimum—that this is a useful or productive regulations is up to five years, as is the case in the way for them to spend their time. In another place, the previous order and in the regulations for sex offenders. Minister replied: “I understand the calls for an A-level entitlement. That is Motion agreed. something we have agreed to review in 2013”.—[Official Report, 2.17 pm Commons, Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill Committee, 17/3/09; col. 318.] Sitting suspended. Another question might be: why wait? If the Government understand these calls, why wait until Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and 2013 to conduct a review? I beg to move. Learning Bill Committee (4th Day) (Continued) Baroness Walmsley: I am afraid that I cannot support the amendment. While I, too, deplore the discrepancy 2.30 pm between the independent sector and state schools—any discrepancy of opportunity is of course to be deplored—I Amendment 95 do not think that this amendment is the way to solve Moved by Lord De Mauley the problems that the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, 95: Clause 40, page 23, line 38, at end insert— has outlined. We must bear in mind the fact that sixth “( ) ensure that all sixth form provision offers, as a forms these days are about a great deal more than minimum, A level courses in English, mathematics, A-levels. Provision for the 16 to 18 age group is much physics, chemistry, biology, history, geography, and at more diverse than just sixth forms. If a young person least two modern foreign languages” wanted to study Latin, psychology or philosophy, for 375 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 376 example, that would not be provided by the minimum as the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, expected me to entitlement laid down in the Conservative amendment. say. That has never been the case, even before the There are probably plenty of places where the young increases in collaborative delivery. The more specific person could do that. Many young people of that age nature of the study that takes place post-16 has always now do their spread of subjects in more than one led to pupils choosing to move between institutions. setting. Although we have a problem with discrepancy There has to be a balance. He makes the good point of opportunity in some areas, this amendment is not about not wanting to see young people engaged in the way to tackle the issue. That will be done by excessive travel and, of course, local authorities have making sure that adequate resources are provided and to take that into account. that high-quality teaching is available to all young Amendment 95 would require all sixth forms to people, not by providing a minimum entitlement of offer this selection of subjects. While this will be this prescriptive nature. appropriate for many learners, we think that it is right that decisions about what courses are on offer in what Lord Lucas: I very much support the spirit of my institutions should be determined at a local level. The noble friend’s amendment, but not the wording. It is sixth forms that do not offer all these subjects may not important that young people who want to study these be designated or designed to do so. They may play a basic subjects are given the opportunity to do so and it different role, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, is not satisfactory that there are instances at the moment pointed, in providing diversity of what is available where that is not the case. However, I hope—perhaps locally and they may do it very well. the Minister will enlighten me—that the application of It is more important to look at whether young subsection (1) will cover this. If a local education people are taking A-levels. The evidence from last authority, summer shows that these subjects are doing very well. “must secure that enough suitable education and training is The five subjects that saw the biggest increase in provided to meet the reasonable needs of persons in their area”, entries included maths, English, history and biology. and one such need is to study physics at A-level, I Between them, these four subjects saw increases of presume that we are now placing that duty on local more than 11,000 entries—more than half the overall education authorities. If that is the case, I would like increase in A-level entries last year. Moreover, numbers to know—I did not get an answer last time I asked—how taking these subjects in maintained schools and colleges that duty is to be enforced. continue to rise. I offer that as reassurance to noble Lords. Baroness Deech: I support the amendment. In recent We are not complacent at all about this. We recognise years, the details of our curriculum have been upside that there is a great deal of work to do. We started down. Very young children have too much laid down recording the type of exam centre in 2005—a very in detail about their education but, as you go further recent event—so we now have the data that allow us to up the ladder, there is too little. It is now widely have this debate. Since then, of the subjects listed in accepted that dropping the requirement to learn modern the amendment, only geography has seen a very small languages at the age of 14 or 15 was a mistake. reduction in entries from maintained schools and colleges, Therefore, I support the amendment, in part because but I reassure noble Lords that it remains in the list of it mentions two modern foreign languages. It would top 10 subjects studied at A-level. bring back some credibility and rigour to what must Following the 2007 review by the late Lord Dearing, be considered for teenagers towards the end of their we put in place a range of measures to boost full-time education. language learning in schools because we, like noble Lords, feel that it is an important area in which we need to do better. This included a £6 million The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, communications campaign over three years to promote Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness the importance of language learning to pupils, parents Morgan of Drefelin): I am delighted to be able to and the school workforce and reforming the secondary respond and I hope to offer some reassurance, in curriculum to make it more relevant and engaging for particular to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, over pupils. We expect that these measures will increase the her concerns about languages. I agree with the noble likelihood that pupils will increase their take-up of Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that sixth forms are about a GCSE languages, which will then lead, we hope, to a lot more than A-levels. The amendment moved by the better take-up of language A-levels. We can take heart noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, puts forward the interesting at this approach because it is the one that we have idea of creating this requirement, but the noble Lord, taken in science and mathematics, where we have seen Lord Lucas, is right in his interpretation of the Bill. an impact—increasing numbers of children and We consider that the duty of local authorities to young people are opting, importantly, for mathematics. provide suitable education would include access to this I hope that, with the reassurances that I have list of A-level subjects, which come in the top 10 given, the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his favourite subjects that young people in this age group amendment. opt for. We agree on the importance of the A-level subjects 2.45 pm set out in Amendment 95 being on offer to all young people, but making sure that these subjects are on Lord Eatwell: Before my noble friend sits down, I offer to all young people is not the same as making wonder whether she could elucidate her comments on sure that they are on offer in every single institution, mathematics. It is my understanding that there is a 377 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 378

[LORD EATWELL] suppose that a local authority determines that in a severe deficiency in the provision of teaching in double- particular patch of its area there are, say, four students subject maths in our schools at the moment. Many who wish to study further maths at A-level who are talented young mathematicians are forced to take unable to do so because their local school does not single-subject mathematics, which compromises their offer it, what powers are we then giving the local future university careers both in mathematics and in authority? Is the local authority going to have the physics. Does her reference to improved access to and power to direct the school to start a course in further take-up in mathematics A-level cover double-subject mathematics? Is the local authority going to have the maths or only single-subject maths? power to subsidise the transport of these students to somewhere that does further mathematics? Is the local Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: WhatIhavehereis authority going to have the power to subsidise the the number of entries in subjects from maintained school to run what, at four pupils, will be a loss-making schools and FE colleges; the number of entries for course? 2008 in mathematics is 45,084. I am assuming—I am Once it knows that there is a required provision, a looking behind the noble Lord in the hope that I shall local authority is given an instruction that it must get some indication—that that figure includes all maths secure it. What powers is the local authority being A-levels. Perhaps not. I am afraid that I will have to given to enable it to secure the provision of, say, four come back to the noble Lord on that figure. places a year to study further mathematics for a particular On the wider point about attracting maths specialists group of students? into teaching, we are extremely aware of the importance of doing that and we have been investing through our Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: We have had detailed STEM programme in improving the offer to maths discussions about commissioning in local authorities. graduates to come into teaching and in attracting We have the 16 to 19 partnerships, which will set out maths graduates from other professions, such as the their strategic plans. We have the YPLA and local finance sector, to consider coming into maths teaching. authorities as part of the sub-regional groups. I believe Having expert teachers who are qualified in the subject that there will be a system in place to ensure that is an important factor in exciting and encouraging where there is demand for certain subjects, the system young people to maintain an interest, particularly in will be capable of offering them. One of the most mathematics. important levers is in the provision of funding and I have some inspiration coming my way. Maths ensuring that there is capacity. It is extremely important entries have increased from 35,000 to 45,000—I presume that local authorities ensure that they can offer what that that is pure maths—and entries to further maths young people are looking for. have increased from 3,000 to nearly 6,000. That is between 2005 and 2008. Lord Lucas: I agree with that, but it still does not answer the question. What powers are we giving local Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I just intervene to tell authorities to do this? A school may well recognise the Minister—it is maths and further maths about that there is a demand for four places to study further which I assume the noble Lord is concerned—that maths, but it also realises that if it offers such a course, there has been a significant increase in the number it may well make a loss on it because eight students is taking further maths over the last couple of years, about the break-even number for an A-level group. A partly as a result of the Further Mathematics Network school might reasonably decide of its own volition initiative. It puts young people at state schools that that it was not capable of offering the further maths have not had the facility to teach further maths in education that the local authority has identified as touch with people who have that capability. It is partly being needed. Under those circumstances, can the online but it also provides young people with face-to-face local authority compel the school to offer it? Can it tuition through extra classes, twilight classes and weekend subsidise the school by offering it twice the ordinary tuition. It is an example that has been extremely rate for students who study further maths? What powers effective and could well be copied in one or two other are being given to the local authority to ensure that it areas. There is a question as to why, given that we have is able to perform the duty being put on it in new seen this increase in mathematics at A-level, the Section 15ZA(1)? Government are now consulting on changing the A-level maths curriculum in 2011. The general feeling—and I Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: I am struggling to was talking only last night to somebody representing convince the noble Lord. The way I see this is that the the Mathematical Association—is that the formula is local authority has the power to come to an agreement now good. People are flocking back to maths after the with an institution to provide the capacity to deliver disaster of Curriculum 2000. If it ain’t broke—and it teaching in subjects it sees as important. I am not sure is working—why fix it? that I can see the problem, but I am happy to write a note for the noble Lord and copy it to other Members Lord Lucas: My noble friend’s amendment does not of the Committee if we are not being clear enough. It deal with the general, it deals with the particular. The will explain exactly which powers in the Bill that defects occur when individual areas are not offering would rely on. This is about coming to an agreement the full range of provision, and as I said in my brief within a community, and about gathering from providers comment, I thought that Clause 40(1) was what was intelligence about which courses are likely to be needed. going to deal with that. If the noble Baroness can There has to be a dialogue and I see this as a process in 379 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 380 which local authorities are in pole position. However, nevertheless it is helpful to have a review and I do not it also has to be about agreement between providers have an issue with that at all. We have made a public and the local authority. commitment to conduct such a review. However, I think it would be helpful if we gave the diploma time Lord Lucas: I do not disagree with anything the to roll out before such a review takes place in order to noble Baroness has said, but I want to take the point a see the interplay between the various different little further. Let us suppose that a school recognises qualifications in an age group. that it ought to be providing four places to study further maths. The local authority and all the other Lord De Mauley: I am grateful to the Minister and bodies the noble Baroness mentioned recognise that, to all other noble Lords who have participated in the but if the school was to provide those four places, in debate. For today, however, perhaps I may say that I terms of what it would have to pay the teacher and shall give the matter further thought before we come what it would bring in as a proportion of those to the Report stage. In the mean time, I beg leave to students’ funding, it would cost perhaps £15,000 to withdraw the amendment. £20,000 a year to run the course. The school might not have that sum in its budget, so it says, “How can the Amendment 95 withdrawn. local authority help?” What powers are being given to the local authority to, as it were, subsidise courses or assist pupils by providing transport to somewhere Amendment 96 where it is economically viable to run the course? Is Moved by Lord Lucas power being given to local authorities to enable them to do what everyone agrees they want to see being 96: Clause 40, page 23, line 38, at end insert— done? “( ) respect the independence of any further education or sixth form college; Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: The noble Lord has ( ) recognise that sixth form, specialist and further answered his own question. The powers set out in new education colleges should seek to recruit students from outside the area of the local authority; Section 15ZA are required in order that local authorities can come to agreements with a group of schools or ( ) promote the attendance of students at sixth form, specialist and further education colleges outside its colleges about how a particular demand might be met area” and to ensure the capacity is funded. I have a problem in understanding what I am not explaining properly. Lord Lucas: I think I understand the reasons why the Government want to bring sixth-form colleges and Lord Lucas: I am sure we will have a chance to other colleges back under the wing of their local come back to this on later amendments. authorities in order to integrate the provision for 16 to 19 year-olds, and even beyond for those with special Lord De Mauley: I thank all noble Lords for their needs. Everything should come under one optic and contributions to this short debate, in particular the be dealt with an integrated and sensible way. noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and I share her concern For the sake of this amendment, I shall take that as about foreign languages. My noble friend Lord Lucas a given and say that what I am after is preserving some said that he supports the spirit of the amendment, and of the virtues that have been gained over the past for that at least I am grateful, as well as for his decade and a half as a result of liberating sixth-form subsequent, more detailed probing. I thank also the and further education colleges from local education noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, whose question was very authorities. Certainly the best of them have become important. I hear what the noble Baroness, Lady national enterprises. Prisons in Kent are managed by Walmsley, said, and I am not entirely surprised though Manchester City College, for instance, while many FE a little disappointed. I thank the Minister for her and sixth-form colleges have gained national reputations response, and we too are delighted to see her back on for what they do. The virtues of Hills Road Sixth her feet. I reiterate to her and to the noble Baroness, Form College in Cambridge are well known, as is Lady Walmsley, that what we are really concerned Greenhead College in Huddersfield, which attracts about is the idea of bussing people around just to students from the south of Manchester, Hull and right ensure they receive tuition in these basic subjects. up from the far north of Yorkshire and Lancashire. As I said when I moved the amendment, the Minister People travel a long way and make great efforts to in another place replied that unlike the noble Baroness, attend good sixth-form colleges, particularly where he understood the calls for an A-level entitlement, and they have developed expertise in certain subjects. Where that was why he agreed to a review in 2013, which is a subject is not particularly mainstream, it is very four years away. I have asked why it is necessary to much to the advantage of students and the educational wait until 2013 to conduct the review. Would the noble system that the expertise becomes concentrated. They Baroness like to answer that question? can then afford to develop long-lasting links with industry, both to inform what they are teaching and to Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: I shall have a go. A provide the routes by which their graduates go on to lot is happening with the rollout of diplomas as well as obtain employment. with the development of the secondary school curriculum The better of these courses now have 15 years-worth and Ofqual. I think that it would be a mistake to bring of graduates in the industries that they supply and an forward a review of A-levels sooner than that, but enormous reputation, as I say, in many cases countrywide. 381 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 382

[LORD LUCAS] I have a further query relating to cross-regional I do not want to see that destroyed or jeopardised as a issues. Apparently the Learning and Skills Council side effect of the virtues that the Government are issued guidance about the recruitment of non-English trying to achieve by bringing these colleges back under domiciled students in Wales, Scotland and Northern local authority control. It would be a great pity to lose what Ireland as follows: we have won merely in order to gain something else. “The LSC has reciprocal arrangements with the funding That is the burden of my amendment. I hope the councils for Wales and Scotland for colleges and providers close Government will enlarge on the technicalities of it so to the borders. However, it is not expected that colleges and that I can understand better how colleges can continue providers in England will recruit entire groups of learners from outside their local area. Such learners should be referred to the to assert their independence, innovate and head in the possibility of distance-learning or a Ufi programme delivered by direction that they want to head while at the same time their local provider or hub in Wales or Scotland. If the learning being subject to what I read as, as the noble Lord knows, programme is not available through this route, permission to the quite draconian powers under Clause 40 and elsewhere enrol the learners must be sought from the provider’s LSC partnership which a local authority will have to decide what provision team”. is to be made in its locality and how. I beg to move. In January, the Welsh Affairs Select Committee in the other place reported on a cross-border provision 3pm of further and higher education and described this LSC funding guidance as unhelpful and inappropriate Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I shall speak to and urged authorities to see access across borders as Amendment 103. It is a slightly obscure amendment something to be encouraged. The Government, in to probe, to some extent, the same issue. We on these their formal response to the committee, said: Benches endorse Amendment 96 and the promotion of the independence of the sixth-form college and “The guidance issued by the Learning and Skills Council … to further education colleges should not be seen as restrictive or as a further education college sector. Given that, we would deterrent to English colleges responding to the needs of Welsh or like to know a little more about the kinds of co-operation Scottish learners. Rather it supports our expectations that that are being developed. individual colleges will focus primarily on their local communities. We understand that 43 sub-regional groups have Where such communities embrace such cross-border travel-to-learn now been agreed to. There is a six-stage process of or travel-to-work areas it is appropriate for those colleges to include these factors within their planning and their marketing agreement on the funding procedures and the way it strategies”. moves forward. In the first stage, the YPLA will develop a national framework, working with local We would welcome clarification from the Minister authorities. The second stage is that each local authority as to whether new guidance from the DCSF will be will assess supply and demand for 16 to 19 provision issued to the sub-regional groups of the local authorities within its own area. The third stage is that each local near the Welsh and Scottish borders. Will it make clear authority will then take this assessment to one of the that they can recruit across the border, or will it try to 43 sub-regional groups of local authorities of which it deter such colleges from doing so? Perhaps the Minister is a member, and the group will agree the commissioning can provide us with such clarification. plans within its sub-region. The fourth stage is that these plans will then have to be agreed at a regional Lord Baker of Dorking: Listening to the noble planning group, which will scrutinise the local plans Baroness, Lady Sharp, the Committee has been reminded and ensure that they are coherent, can be funded of the enormous administrative paraphernalia that is within the regional budget and will deliver the 14 to 19 going to be created by the Bill. First local authorities entitlement. The fifth stage is that the plans will go up will work out local needs assessments, then they will to the YPLA, which will check them to ensure that submit to some regional body a regional needs assessment, they cohere and are affordable and then fund local then this will all be looked at by the Government for a authorities appropriately; if the YPLA agrees with national needs assessment. There is so much planning; them, it will send the funding back down to local Stalinists would welcome this approach to education authorities. The sixth stage is that the local authorities provision. will then pass the funding on to colleges and other That is not how it is done now. For the past 30 years, post-16 providers. The YPLA also has powers to act as a result of my freeing them from local education as a backstop authority and to intervene if it thinks authority control, FE colleges have had a glorious there is a significant risk that local authorities have golden age—no one can deny that. FE technical and not developed robust commissioning plans. vocational training has never had such a fillip as it has However, let us assume that they have developed had for the past 30 years, and it has had it because the what are seen to be robust commissioning plans. Given colleges were freed from the dead hand of the local that this is supposed to be a demand-led system, can education authorities. They were allowed to do their the Minister explain what would happen in instances own thing, and they decided to provide the courses where the predicted demand for learners agreed all the that local people wanted. They did not go and talk way up and down the regional and sub-regional groups, regionally and nationally; they knew what they wanted when aggregated together at the regional level, fails to to do, they knew what the local lads and lasses wanted match or meet the actual number of young people to do, and they provided the courses for them. They who turn up at a college or a school? With more were constantly in touch with the market, always players involved than in the current process involving adjusting, introducing new courses for tourism, expanding only the single learning and skills councils, what would those for medical services for nurses and cutting back be the process for reassessing the funding allocation? on others that were a lot less popular. That was real What would be the role of the YPLA at this point? freedom. 383 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 384

The ultimate solution should be—I have yet to the expectations and abilities of FE and sixth-form persuade my Front Bench of the value of this argument, colleges to provide the services that the Bill wants but I am working hard on it—that they should return them to. That is a separate debate, though; the debate here to being free institutions and students should be given is about catchment areas. I hope that the Minister will vouchers to decide themselves which courses they utter the sentence that I have encouraged him to say. want to pay for and go to. Let the students decide; that is what choice is about. We are told that the Prime Baroness Perry of Southwark: I should declare an Minister is all about extending choice to ordinary interest as a former governor of Hills Road College, people, but if he really wanted to do that then he which has been mentioned as one of the most excellent would give all qualified youngsters the chance to buy sixth-form colleges in the country and is constantly at their own education. Is that not freedom? It is not the top of the league tables. I also declare a very planning. different sort of interest: I made my maiden speech in this House welcoming the reforms that gave the further My noble friend’s amendment is very interesting. education colleges their freedom from local authorities. He is saying that, now that FE colleges are going to be Exactly as both my noble friends have emphasised, under local education authority control for a time, that has resulted in an extraordinary explosion in both they should be allowed to recruit students from wherever the status and the effectiveness of the further education they want. That is what they have now, the complete sector. freedom to recruit whoever they want. I know one The part of Clause 40 that most concerns me and FE college in London which is at the junction of three rather gives the negative answer to the question asked London boroughs. It recruits from those boroughs by my noble friend Lord Baker about catchment areas and from well beyond; it recruits into Kent as well. is subsection (4)(d) of new Section 15ZA, which says Will the colleges have that freedom? The Minister is that, nodding. I would like him to say one sentence: that no “a local education authority must … take account of education FE college or sixth-form college will have a catchment and training whose provision the authority think might reasonably area. I am sure that my noble friend would like the be secured by other persons”. same sentence from him. That is the real gain. That is, presumably, because some college 50 miles The Minister nodded, so I hope that he will use that away is providing something that is considered to be sentence, which I will repeat: no FE college or sixth-form useful. That is the negative power that the Bill gives to college will have a catchment area. The Ministers are a local education authority to tell a further education looking to see whether that is in their brief; I am sure it college what it may not do. Not only is there a list of is not, but I hope that it will be by the time they come things that it has the power to tell the FE college and to reply. I hope that they will say that, because it is the the sixth-form that they must do, this is a negative essence of freedom and the colleges should have that power to tell them what they cannot do. I find that freedom. Otherwise, local education authorities will extremely worrying. restrict them by saying, “We want you to do these My noble friend referred to one college—which courses for our area”, although they might be right may be the one that sprang to my mind, namely next to the boundary of another area that does not Lewisham College in south London—which has want that sort of thing. We should let choice decide been working voluntarily and extremely fruitfully with this matter. My noble friend’s amendment is important. its neighbouring local authorities to provide 14 to It goes to the heart of the arrangements in the future 16 education. It is wonderful example of free co-operation and the relationships of FE colleges to local education between three local authorities and one absolutely free authorities. If they do not have that freedom, it will be sixth-form college. That is the sort of thing that I fear a grave disappointment. would be cut. I see the Minister shaking his head, but of course it would be. Once they have the power, local The difficulty is enormous: in order to deliver education authorities will begin to restrict things to what is in up to 18, the Government have brought in the Bill and their own interests, particularly if they are footing the put the FE colleges back under local education bill. I would very much like to see some absolute authorities—but at the same time they are slashing assurance from the Minister—which I am sure he will their capital expenditure. The Ministers know, because get from his briefing—that while the local authority the Government made a Statement last week, that will fund the colleges, it will not necessarily control 92 projects have been submitted for sixth-form colleges them. I am afraid that the whole of Clause 40 is about and FE colleges, all of which were approved by the control and I find that absolutely wrong in view of former council. Of those 92, only 13 have been approved. everything that I have seen happen in the past 20 years. That is not the way to improve the public services that the Prime Minister is talking about and that will 3.15 pm improve the opportunities for young people in technical and vocational education; it is holding them back. Lord Elton: I go a little further than my noble friend There is a great debate about whether cuts are going to who has just spoken because I do not give much happen after the next election but, as far as FE and weight to assurances given by the Front Bench of any sixth-form colleges are concerned, the cuts have started Government. They only last as long as the Government, already—massively so. and not always as long as that. I want to see the assurance in the Bill. To try to stop one hair being split The Government slipped through an Answer last in resistance to this amendment, I think that it would Friday, although they did not make a Statement to be a little better if the second line of the second either House about it—no verbal Statement was made, paragraph read, “colleges should seek to recruit students I assure the Minister—about a major change in reducing from outside as well as inside the area of the local 385 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 386

[LORD ELTON] therefore able to be of a much higher standard. Can authority”, and likewise in the next paragraph, in case the Minister reassure your Lordships that local authorities the Minister says that this is trying to diminish the will continue to accept that students should be allowed— benefits to a local authority of having an FE college in indeed, actively encouraged—to travel to different colleges its area. I agree wholly with my noble friends and for specialist courses? I think that most noble Lords in wish that I had the eloquence of my noble friend the Chamber would agree that the independence of Lord Baker. these colleges has secured a virtuous cycle—the more a college has specialised, the more it has attracted Baroness Howe of Idlicote: I very much support the students from distant locations, and as it has started to amendment. The case has been argued extremely well attract students from far and wide to a particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, who brings his past good course, the more the college is able to specialise. knowledge and continuing study of this area to the This must, surely, be allowed to continue. debate. We are all concerned about control. Certainly, I was very interested to hear about Amendment 103, if you look at the work of the Association of Colleges in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, regarding over the years, its standards have been rising considerably, the workings of sub-regional groupings of local as we have heard. It is interesting to note that it is authorities. Like my noble friend Lord Baker, I look particularly helping those from the most deprived forward to the Minister’s response as to how these backgrounds. Something like 68 per cent of those in 41 sub-regional groupings are going to work, how far receipt of education maintenance allowance study at a they have progressed and to what extent he accepts college; and 13 per cent of the 16 to 18 year-olds are that there will be boundaries between the groupings. from deprived backgrounds, compared to 7 per cent in maintained schools. There are a number of such figures which really show that the Association of Colleges has The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, increasingly acted as a facilitator of the talents that we Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord all need to see developed to the full in all our children. Young of Norwood Green): Amendment 96 echoes One part of me welcomes the fact that local authorities some of the concerns in a recent article in the Guardian, are taking over education. I will come to that later. In as well as concerns in the sector generally, that the prisons, as we all know, maybe the governors had independence of FE colleges will be eroded by these other ideas about what the priorities for young people— reforms. I reassure the House that this is the last thing and indeed older prisoners who would clearly benefit we want. It is that very freedom of colleges to innovate from further forms of education or apprenticeships— and improve, through having strong governing bodies should be. It is the business of control that we are all and business models that respond to the needs of concerned about. The point about moving from one learners, that has brought much of the growth and local education authority to another is absolutely basic, improvement in the further education system. The is it not? You have to be able to cross boundaries. provisions in this Bill do not affect the independent, Clearly a lot of this is happening now anyhow—for incorporated status of these colleges, or their business example, if you are in a prison in one area and your plans. Colleges will still own their own buildings. They home is in another. I have looked hard at the section will still own their own land. They will still command that noble Lords want to change. I originally read it in their own budgets. They will still make their own a rather more positive way, but the more I looked at it, decisions about what courses they offer. They will still the more it worried me. Perhaps the Minister could appoint their own staff. take a further look at it, to see if it could be made I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Baker, describing more reassuring. I just have this instinct that the the apparent educational nirvana that exists now; I intention is the opposite of what we have all foreseen. can reassure him, that in some circumstances, even in the current situation, colleges will continue to be Lord De Mauley: Amendment 96 in the name of my accountable for the substantial sums of public investment noble friend Lord Lucas is welcome and I support we make in them, through the performance-management it—indeed, I have put my name to it. I hope the framework. From next year, local authorities will be Minister will give it a favourable response. I am assured commissioning from all providers and will be responsible that, on the first point, he will be able to offer some for performance-managing those that choose to be comfort that further education and sixth-form colleges designated as sixth-form colleges, but this does not will remain independent. Assuming that this is amount to control. forthcoming, it will be good news. And yet—here I Our overriding aim is that all young people participate share the concern of my noble friend Lord Elton—it in some form of education or training and attain the does not seem to be very clear in the Bill, hence this skills, confidence and competence to become economically amendment. I hope at least that it will be clear in the prosperous citizens. With the raised participation age, text of Hansard. It is also vital, however, that we are we want local authorities to focus on ensuring that given some reassurance about the second and third every young person has access to a high-quality and subsections of the amendment. engaging learning offer to enable them to participate, One of the great benefits of sixth-form and, particularly, irrespective of where the institution they choose to further education colleges is that they should be study in is located. In answer to his specific request, I encouraged to specialise and so attract large numbers can assure the noble Lord, Lord Baker, that there will of students from outside their respective immediate not be such a catchment area defined; the funding areas, and indeed, outside the remit of their local will follow the learners. That is the situation that authorities. The very nature of these colleges depends currently exists and we do not want to do anything to on being able to offer specialised education which is undermine it. 387 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 388

Lord Baker of Dorking: Does that apply to sixth-form We do not anticipate changes in the membership or colleges as well? governance arrangements of the sub-regional groups as it is important to ensure stability in the planning Lord Young of Norwood Green: So— process. However, there may be circumstances when a sub-regional group needs to reassess its membership. Lord Baker of Dorking: That applies to sixth-form The Young People’s Learning Agency, whose primary colleges as well? aim is to support local authorities, will be well placed to assist with any review. This is not to say that the Lord Young of Norwood Green: Yes. I did say so. Secretary of State will not have an interest in how Section 15ZA(4), inserted by Clause 40, already local authorities perform their new functions. Where sets out that local authorities must act with a view to co-operation between local authorities breaks down, encouraging diversity in the education and training to the extent that one or more of the local authorities available to persons and to take account of education within a particular sub-regional grouping may not be and training whose provision might be secured elsewhere. able to fulfil their duties in new Section 15ZA, we have This is the very essence of the amendment tabled by provided through Clause 65 for the YPLA to intervene the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. to secure the provision of education and training. These are reserve powers which we expect to be used only in We will not accept any limitation of learner choice extremis, as was the case with the LSC, but before that as a result of these changes. It will not be sufficient for occurs, Clause 65(4) specifically requires the YPLA to a local authority to commission all its provision from consult the Secretary of State. Any intervention under one type of institution, even if that were possible. this provision would have to be in line with its intervention While there are many excellent colleges and school policy statement made under Clause 71, which will sixth forms in almost every local authority area, it is have been approved by the Secretary of State. hard to see that any local authority would be able to I shall try to cover the points raised by noble Lords. meet its duties in new Section 15ZA and fulfil the I say to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that local authorities needs of all its 16-19, or 19-25 year-old, population will not determine what provision colleges will make. from commissioning provision just within its boundaries As regards 14-19 partnerships, the local authority as or from one type of provider. strategic leader and the providers as the curriculum For learners who cross the Scottish or Welsh border, and professional experts will come together to determine the national commissioning framework, issued by the jointly the offer to young people. I think that the noble YPLA, will include guidance in relation to these learners Baroness, Lady Sharp, asked about the mismatch between and will be clear that commissioning should focus on plans, funding and actual recruitment. Informed plans the needs of the learner and be based on participation, will be produced for the commissioning process which rather than where learners are resident. takes place by March of each year, although I cannot The 43 sub-regional groupings, reflecting young see the precise date. Recruitment will happen in September. people’s travel-to-learn patterns, will work to ensure Given that funding follows learner choice, money will local authorities meet the diverse needs of young flow to the colleges where learners turn up; there people in their area and increase opportunities for might have to be a reconciliation process, but we are young people to exercise choice. We believe that the clear about that. funding should follow the learner. This brings me on to Amendment 103. New Section 15ZB of the Education Act 1996, inserted by Clause 40 of the Bill, requires 3.30 pm local authorities to co-operate with each other when I think that I have answered the question about the securing suitable education and training for young Scottish and Welsh cross-borders issue. I have found people, and young adults subject to a learning difficulty my note on catchment areas; no FE college or sixth assessment. This duty underpins the establishment of form will have a catchment area. I am reliably informed sub-regional groupings, and beyond. These arrangements that none will be imposed by the Government, the will be key to ensuring that commissioning reflects YPLA or the local authority. It is completely up to the the travel-to-learn patterns of young people. The college as an independent institution. I hope that that noble Lords’ amendment would require co-operation lays that issue to rest. arrangements to be agreed with the Secretary of State. The noble Baroness, Lady Perry, felt that new The formation of sub-regional groupings is predominantly subsection (4)(d) in Clause 40, in relation to other a local decision, as local authorities are best placed to persons, was negative and controlling. We do not see it identify how they can best serve their learners. That in that light; it is not a negative power. It is about said, there has already been a degree of national ensuring that local authorities take account of provisions oversight. The formal governance and operational secured by others—for example, they include: the chief arrangements of the 43 sub-regional groups were assessed executive of the Skills Funding Agency securing by a national panel drawn from key stakeholders apprenticeships for 16 to 19 year-olds; private training inside and outside government, including the Association providers; and young people travelling across local of Colleges and the Local Government Association. authority boundaries. Young people need to have These sub-regional groupings have come together of choice—an argument which I know the noble Baroness their own volition because they see the necessity of so endorses. This is not about control, but accountability doing. They understand that significant numbers of and choice. young people seek their education outside their authorities. I believe that I have answered most of the points Therefore, this process is building on what already raised by noble Lords. In conclusion, I reiterate our happens as it recognises the benefits of that. belief that, first, by ensuring that funding follows the 389 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 390

[LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN] There is an overall problem. What if a sub-regional learner and, secondly, by ensuring that there is a grouping is far too optimistic in its planning for the collaborative process, the independence of colleges numbers of young people who will come forward for will be sustained. It is not just a local authority which places and they do not come forward? Presumably it determines of its own volition; it will have to do this in will get less money from the YPLA when things are consultation with colleges. It is important to offer divvied out again and will have to reallocate that young people choice, the ability to cross boundaries— among its colleges. described by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, in relation to London—or even to travel more widely to national specialist colleges, if they wish to attend them. We are Lord Young of Norwood Green: In part, the noble firmly committed to that choice and to sustaining the Baroness has answered her own question. If we are independence of colleges in an environment where we talking about building on success—that it is what we have devolved funding to local authorities. want to encourage—then inevitably those that are not so successful are going to have a lesser budget. Any I hope that on the basis of those assurances noble planning process relies on the accuracy of the data Lords will be prepared to withdraw or not move their collected. The point is that real data are building up. It amendments. has been gathered from discussions with learning providers Baroness Perry of Southwark: I am very grateful, as in this area. I am sure the groupings will not get it I am sure is the Committee, to the noble Lord for that absolutely right. In an endeavour to be helpful in this full reply. However, I became increasingly worried as I area of the process of commissioning and to ensure listened to it, because all the language being used is noble Lords that we are in no way attempting to about the local authority’s duty and the local authority undermine the capabilities of colleges, we shall write as a commissioner. The person who commissions provision to you further on this particular issue. I am happy to is in charge of what provision is commissioned. The do that because I do not want there to be dubiety noble Lord’s answer to my point was that the local between us. I genuinely endorse the enthusiasm with authority might decide that because there was a private which noble Lords have commended what goes on in provider it would not to commission that provision FE colleges. from the further education college. Some further education I can resist anything but temptation and cannot colleges and sixth form colleges have taken on the private resist responding to the remark made by the noble sector and have provided brilliantly, at a lower cost Lord, Lord Baker, on capital expenditure. I would not and far better, the kind of course or training which a deny that there was a bit of hiccup in this—he said private provider in the locality was already offering. Why with commendable understatement. Yet I make no are we shifting away from the freedom of those colleges? apologies for the huge investment of well over £2 billion we have put into FE colleges. When I visited my Lord Young of Norwood Green: We are not taking former FE college, once known as Willesden Tech and that away. I merely pointed out other circumstances now the College of North West London, I was presiding and that we could not focus on only one area, as over the opening of an impressive new annex. There though there were no other providers. were clearly mistakes in the current round. That was Let me try to be clear about the autonomous providers. identified in the Foster review. Yet there has been huge Schools with sixth forms, FE colleges, academies and investment in further education. That is why we can so on each determine their capacity. After all, as the see the kind of success that the noble Lord, Lord noble Baroness pointed out, successful colleges have Baker, was extolling in his contribution. already attracted their students. The funding will remain with the colleges if they have done that. It will not be taken away; it is quite clear that the colleges have Baroness Howe of Idlicote: I thank the noble Lord already established their needs and there is no way for the explanations he has given. They have been that those will be overridden. quite helpful. Yet I find puzzling this phrase in Clause 40(4)(d) that the noble Lord, Lord Baker, Similarly, because of their autonomy they will mentioned, determine their capacity, ethos and curriculum offer. I do not want to reiterate that as the main concern of “take account of education and training whose provision the authority think might reasonably be secured by other persons”. the noble Baroness was their ability to control and to build on an established success. We are absolutely as If the funding follows the individual and the one with her. We are not taking away any of that. commissioning has been done independently with the Their commissioning plans can only be built on what desires of that particular young person, what is is already happening in any particular local authority. paragraph (d) meant to address? Is there any need for it? It would be helpful for that to be considered either Baroness Sharp of Guildford: Can I get clarification now or at a later stage. from the Minister? He said that the funding will follow the learner, and, equally, we will see commissioning in Lord Young of Norwood Green: Was the noble advance. As he rightly said, every March a certain Baroness referring to paragraph (c) or (d)? number of places will be commissioned at a further education or sixth form college for the following September. If the college recruits well above the numbers Baroness Howe of Idlicote: Paragraph (d), which that are commissioned, how far is there then reassessment? states, Will the college be penalised if it recruits more than “take account of education and training whose provision the the commissioned numbers? authority think might reasonably be secured by other persons”. 391 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 392

Lord Young of Norwood Green: I will come back In the past, that matter was decided centrally by the to the noble Baroness on that specific point. In Government, because they provided the funding. We subsection (4)(a), which mentions, will go back to lots of local squabbles and fights. I see “act with a view to encouraging diversity in the education and a Peer who is not actually in the House, but is standing training available to persons”, at the Bar, who knows a great deal about education we are laying down the issue of choice. and is nodding. I see lots of nodding opposite. We would like your votes on all this one day. That will be I hope that the assurances I have given will enable the problem: there will be a lot of local squabbling the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment. As I again, just like pre-1992. That is for another day, but I said, we will come back to him on the question of should like some undertaking from the Minister today. commissioning, to ensure that we establish beyond any doubt the independent nature of colleges and their ability to attract students to their courses. Lord Lucas: I am very grateful to everyone who has spoken on the amendment and for the explanation given by the Minister. If I may, I shall walk through Lord Baker of Dorking: I thank the Minister for his my understanding of the process, so that the Minister clear statement that FE and sixth-form colleges will can interrupt me if I am getting things dreadfully not have a catchment area and will continue to enjoy wrong. the freedom that they have. That is most welcome. It Let us suppose that a local authority, as part of will be welcomed by FE and sixth-form colleges across whatever grouping—perhaps the Minister could let the country. I also fully recognise the amount of me know what is the grouping around Greenhead money that is spent on FE. It started under the College in Huddersfield, so I can see how that meshes previous Conservative Government and has continued with the actuality of travel to learn in that part of the strongly under the present Government. That has world—decides that it wants to commission, say, 20 new resulted in magnificent colleges and national institutions. places in strawberry-growing. I chose that because of Matthew Bolton College in Birmingham is a national the badge that the Minister is wearing. It has two institution. It is a magnificent, university-standard FE colleges that might provide this course. They discuss building. So are the Middlesbrough colleges. it, and one of the colleges does not want to do it but However, I have to point out that the handbrake is the other does, so the grouping commissions the second on. It is not about a foot off the accelerator or stopping FE college to put on this course. At that moment, the the car, but the amount that will be spent in the next course is commissioned and no money or obligations three or four years is a small proportion of what has have changed hands, except that the second college been spent in the past three years. Many projects will now has to put in place the facilities and the teaching not go ahead. This is not quite the moment to debate staff to provide the course. this, but it is a grave disappointment, because the main If the thing has been commissioned, it has to set up instrument of the Government delivering school leaving the course in some way or other. If the local authority up to 18 will be the FE colleges and the school has commissioned a course, presumably there is now a sixth-form colleges, and it is those capital programmes provider ready to provide it, which means recruiting that are being slashed to ribbons. someone who knows about strawberry-growing, and I was also glad that the Minister and the whole giving them an office and the equipment they will need Government are now keen on funding following the in order to teach the course. learner. That was not always the case with the noble So the course is then commissioned, at which point Lord’s party when we introduced it back in the 1980s the first FE college decides that, actually, it will put on and when we introduced per capita funding and did one of those courses too, because it does not want to away with block grants. Money following the learner be left out of this wonderful new market. It recruits is absolutely right. Everyone agrees with it. I see that somebody to teach strawberry-growing— the noble Baroness is nodding. Nod a bit harder, because the ultimate conclusion of that is to give the 3.45 pm learner the funding, so that learners themselves can Lord Young of Norwood Green: It will not be an decide which course they want to go to. Then you do imposed process of the kind the noble Lord, Lord not need sub-regional and regional planning bodies Lucas, described. There would be no point in doing and government planning bodies; you trust the person that, because we are talking about responding to already receiving the public service. I am told that that is the established needs. It would be a process of discussion Prime Minister’s policy. and consultation, not one of imposition. I repeat that Of course funding follows the learner, but there has I am conscious of time and, if the noble Lord does not been a fundamental shift in power, which my noble mind me saying so, I do not think that we can take friend Lady Perry has correctly identified. If we allow time to go through the minutiae of the commissioning local authorities to commission, they will have a process. I undertook to write further on this matter, power that they have not had for the past 25 years. because I think it is important that we try to establish Local authorities will be under pressure from existing clarity. I merely intervened because the noble Lord, schools, some of which will want sixth forms and Lord Lucas, implied that if I did not intervene, it some of which will want to extend their sixth forms. meant that I agreed with his analysis, and I am afraid They will be under pressure from local councillors that I cannot on that point. We have explored this who say that they want their school to expand into the subject very well and, in the light of the assurances I sixth form, so that pupils do not go to the sixth-form have given, I hope he will consider withdrawing the college. amendment. 393 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 394

Lord Lucas: Yes, but I will continue where I left off never come across a speech and language therapist in a because, given that I fail to understand anything the prison before, and I asked him why. He said, “These Minister has said, it is important that he and his young people cannot communicate, and unless they officials understand what I mean. As I said, by everyone’s can communicate both with us and with each other, agreement, FE college No 2 has installed this course, we do not know what is wrong with them, so we and FE college No 1 then decides it wants it too. cannot start any process of helping them to live useful Nobody can stop it: it has total freedom to set up this and law-abiding lives”. course itself. It sets up another course offering 20 places I discovered that by carrying out a speech and in strawberry-growing, but when it comes time for the language assessment, the therapist could find out not students to decide, they all flock to college No 1. only about problems of communication, such as the College No 1 gets the funding, while college No 2, ability to talk to people, but about healthcare problems, which had been commissioned by the local authority memory loss, hearing problems and the inability to see to put on this course, gets no funding. So that is my the blackboard, quite apart from all the difficulties understanding of total freedom and of what the that we associate with learning. Because of that, they Government have promised will be the position. On were unable to conduct relationships with each other. that basis, I am happy to withdraw the amendment. Relationships conducted with the fist are not the same Amendment 96 withdrawn. as those conducted by the voice, so by enabling them to conduct normal relationships, the whole atmosphere Amendment 97 not moved. in that place changed, as did the relationships between the staff and prisoners. The education and healthcare Amendment 98 staff were able to take proper remedial action. Moved by Lord Ramsbotham Out of that came the clear understanding that 98: Clause 40, page 23, line 38, at end insert— because of what is happening around us now, the “(f) act with a view to satisfying itself that it has taken the inability to communicate is the scourge of the 20th century. necessary steps to screen for, identify and professionally People do not communicate in families. They do not assess any learning difficulties that the person may have; have meals or discussions together. They do not have (g) with regards to the professional assessment referred to in the normal life which I am sure noble Lords have had. paragraph (f), ensure that the person is referred for Then they go to school and cannot communicate with additional specialist support if it is identified that this is each other, their family or their friends. They cannot required as part of the assessment” communicate with the teacher. If you arrive at school unable to communicate with the teacher, you have a Lord Ramsbotham: This is a probing amendment, terrible problem to overcome. That is why I said in on a subject that is appearing in a number of other connection with the statement made by the Education amendments to other clauses. It is by no means the Minister earlier in the week that it is extraordinary first time that this subject has been raised. It was that people are allowed to move on from the very basic raised in connection with the Education and Skills Bill level in primary school before they have learnt to read only last year. The Minister at that time undertook to and therefore to help communication so they can take the subject away and bring it back again in the engage in further education. We therefore damage Bill that is now before the Committee. I am very them even further. grateful to her for doing that, and for the meetings we have had with her and the Bill team in preparation for Later amendments aim to make certain that every Committee on this Bill. child receives an assessment, before they begin primary What are we probing? The amendments came from school, that will identify what are described as the an organisation called the Communication Trust—a hidden problems—dyslexia, autism and other learning coalition of 30-plus organisations that are working in difficulties—to enable something to be done to prepare the field of speech, language and communication, them to communicate to begin the educational process. such as dyslexia trusts and the Autism Trust. I have Were the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, in his place, he also talked to organisations that deal with the deaf. We would tell us that Northern Ireland, sponsored by the are dealing with a whole spectrum of people who National Health Service, has recently passed legislation come to the educational arena with problems that to make certain that every child in Northern Ireland is prevent them from engaging immediately in it. The assessed at the age of two. You cannot obviously trusts’ concern is that there is significant variation understand all the nuances of the problem at the age around the country in the provision of assessment and of two, but certainly you can identify that there is referral to specialist services for those with hidden something which needs to be looked at to enable that difficulties. If you are talking about an education child to make progress. system, it is essential to talk about the ability of Frequently people talk about evidence. I declare an everyone to engage with it to make certain that the interest as an adviser to the Helen Hamlyn Trust. opportunities are there and that any remedial action is Following what we discovered in prisons, she funded a laid down and prepared. child for two years with speech and language therapists I do not want to burden the Committee again with in young offender establishments to find out the size the story of how I came to be involved in all this, but I and shape of the problem. That trial was conducted remind your Lordships that the governor of a young by Professor Karen Brown from Surrey University, offender prison in Scotland told me that if he had to who wrote this up academically over a period of two get rid of all his staff, the last one out of the gate years. She proved conclusively that if action had been would be his speech and language therapist. I had taken at a much earlier stage, the child would not have 395 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 396 got to the age of 15 with all the problems still there. I know that these amendments have the support of Goodness knows what that meant, other than that the Communication Trust, which has pointed out that their education between the ages of seven and 15 had there is significant variation across the country for not been properly conducted because they were not those with hidden difficulties in terms of assessment able to engage with it. and referral to specialist services. Putting something My reason for deliberately putting down the probing like this into this legislation would help to make sure amendment and putting my name to other amendments that people benefit from the services that they need in to other clauses which address this issue, and the issue the areas where these things are not being dealt with as of young offenders in detention when we come to it, is well as they are elsewhere. that, if this education is going to be delegated again to local education authorities, it is essential that spelt out 4pm in the Bill is the action that they need to take to make Baroness Howe of Idlicote: I shall not detain your certain that people with these learning difficulties can Lordships for long. I thought for one awful moment engage in what local education authorities are now that I was going to have to move this amendment on being commissioned to provide. I beg to move. behalf of my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham, as it was due to be heard last week. But he has now been Baroness Walmsley: On behalf of my noble friend able to move it himself and has done it considerably Lady Garden, who has added her name to these better than I would have been able to. I commend amendments, I would like to say a few words. From what we have just heard about the figures, which these Benches, we support the amendments of the clearly show that testing should start at an earlier noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and the noble Baroness, age. It is very good news that Northern Ireland has Lady Howe, and we agree with and support what the decided that the age of two is when compulsory testing noble Lord has said in his introduction. should start. The earlier the diagnosis of any learning difficulties I very much support these amendments. The is made, the more effectively they can be addressed Communication Trust has done an excellent job. It has and, hopefully, remedied. Clause 40(3)(b) states that provided these amendments one behalf of some—I local authorities already must “have regard to” learning think, 30—voluntary organisations. Incidentally, I believe difficulties. Amendment 98 would require them to do that it gets a grant from a government department, more than that—to ensure that professional screening which clearly also approves of its work. I hope that had taken place and to follow up with appropriate that means that greater notice will be taken of what it action. Amendment 101 spells out specific learning says. Above all, I emphasise the point about the difficulties which can, and should, be identified. However, importance of communication. If you cannot talk, this list must not be regarded as being exclusive. you are highly unlikely to be able to read and will have We have the ability these days to identify and to all sorts of other problems as time goes on. It is good comprehend a wide range of learning difficulties and to know that one of the organisations supporting the signs of these can be detected by experts at earlier ages trust is I CAN, to one of whose meetings I went the than ever before. In response, a variety of teaching other day. We must never forget that great phrase, and training methods have been developed by experts “Chatter matters”. It does indeed and it matters very to tackle these difficulties, offer solutions and ensure importantly in this area. I support the amendment. that the child makes progress. How frustrating for any child where he or she is not making progress. Lord Lucas: As with Clause 40, we will keep coming There is inevitably a cost associated with this, but back to this issue at unexpected moments during the any cost is as nothing compared with the cost to the next day or two. I am delighted that the noble Lord, individual of a diminished quality of life if their Lord Ramsbotham, has started off in such fine fashion. difficulties are not identified, and also the cost to I am optimistic. The other day, the Prime Minister society, which stands to benefit socially and economically promised that every young child who started falling from each individual who is able to participate to their behind in reading and maths would receive help to fullest potential. catch up. However, it makes little sense to do that The Youth Justice Board estimates that around without having baseline, diagnostic pre-testing at the 150,000 children and young people under the age of beginning or you will not know what falling behind 18 enter the youth justice system each year and that, of means for any particular child. those, about 70,000 are of the current compulsory I was also encouraged by Michael Gove’s suggestion—I school age of 16 or under. Fifteen per cent of those hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench will have statements of special education needs, compared amplify it—that there would be a test at the beginning to about 3 per cent of the general population. of secondary school. That, too, should be a proper The Bercow report found that 60 per cent of the diagnostic test, which should enable teaching at secondary 11,000 people in young offender institutions each year school to be accurate and tailored to the individual have speech, language and communication difficulties. and should enable an understanding of the problems The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is absolutely that that individual brings with them. right to emphasise the importance of tackling those Here we have the Government proposing, I hope, a communication difficulties, which are widespread in proper diagnostic test in primary school, my noble the community of young people who find themselves friend proposing it at the beginning of secondary in trouble with the criminal justice system. Earlier school and the Irish doing something about it at the diagnosis would have a very positive impact on the age of two, which is when some of the serious early- social inclusion of these young people. showing special needs, such as autism and speech 397 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 398

[LORD LUCAS] I wonder whether the noble Lord has read the difficulties, can be picked up. The pattern is set for a report on this matter by the Royal College of Speech positive reply from the Minister, to which I look and Language Therapists. It has eight simple forward. recommendations, some of which fall within the Bill and some of which do not. As they are brief, I will Lord Addington: This is the opening barrage of a repeat them. It says: campaign to get the idea of more screening into this “1. Every PCT should have a speech and language therapy legislation. As the noble Lord said, screening will help specialist lead with a remit to develop speech and language to identify hidden disabilities. He is right to concentrate therapy services for vulnerable young people in the community. on language and basic speaking communications 2. Every youth offending team must have at least one full time speech and language therapist who would also provide a service problems. To put it bluntly, if that is not right, it is to community provision such as units for children excluded from very difficult to even explain what the other problems school, probation, mental health and drug misuse services. are, and they feed off each other. Much good computer 3. The ASSET assessment must have a section on communication software is rapidly removing many of the problems skills to identify those with speech, language and communication around dyslexia but, unless you can speak, you cannot needs”. use it, because it is voice operated. These things feed Where it says “must”, we would say “should”. off each other, so they have to be addressed. “4. The intermediary schemes should be extended to support One thing that you have to know is what is there. defendants. We have moved on so far in the past few years and 5. A speech and language therapist should be appointed to there is now a much greater recognition that these work within each of the … secure training centres. 6. There is at least one full time specialist speech and language problems can be dealt with, or at least mitigated in therapist working in every young offender institution. some way, if only they can be identified. There are 7. Each young offender institution should provide a communication various fault lines in areas where you have the greatest support worker to support and carry over the work of the amount of educational failure. Later, we will debate specialist speech and language therapist. issues concerning those who go into the prison system. 8. Establish a national professional lead to oversee and coordinate At all points where you have a new type of education, this new service”. there is a good opportunity to put in a screening We should think of ourselves as trying to provide process. When the Minister responds, I would welcome part of a larger provision that will reach children who an idea of how far the Government are going to take are not under the aegis of the education service in its this. It would be interesting to find out what problems various forms but out in the community and often they have with the principle of screening. passing through the hands of the National Health I hope that we do not hear that we do not have the Service. I offer this as a gloss on what has been said perfect test. There is no such thing. There will always before, because I think that we ought to come back to be people whom you miss. If you have defence in it in this Bill in detail and in other Bills on later depth, you will be able to pick them up later. If you occasions, but I support this amendment wholeheartedly. deal with most people who have a problem, you will probably identify those who stand out as having something Baroness Morris of Bolton: The noble Lord, Lord that is unidentified in the classroom. When you get Ramsbotham, painted a depressing picture of young large masses of people who are not succeeding and people with special needs who are unable to communicate not achieving, it is much easier to hide. From my work and engage with the people around them. I agree with with dyslexics, I know that the easy thing is to disrupt the noble Lord, Lord Addington. I was dyslexic and I the classroom or to be at the back in a large group. hid, but other people who have a problem become You are safe: you will not get identified or placed disruptive and are then excluded. It should come as no under pressure. The survival method of people who surprise that they then get caught up in the criminal find themselves in trouble is either to hide, smile justice system. Whenever I think of this problem, I sweetly in the middle of a group or disrupt. If the think of that old nursery rhyme: Minister introduces screening that works for the majority, “For want of a nail, the shoe was lost”. that small group will no longer have this opportunity. Too many young people go undiagnosed until it is too late. As the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said, this is a probing amendment. I would welcome the Minister The Earl of Listowel: I, too, support these amendments. giving us at least an idea of the Government’s attitude I suffered from a speech impediment as a child, received on this question. We should remember that getting assistance, did not have to do very much and was 90 per cent identification would still be a massive leap relieved of it. I was teased for that impediment before forward. It really would be something good and it it was treated. How much worse it might be for some would give us a chance to pick up people later. There is young people with such a problem. I support what my no perfect answer here; there is merely a better answer. noble friend proposes and I pay tribute to him for his I look forward to the Minister giving a positive reply. ceaseless, long-term campaigning in this area. I was grateful for the extremely helpful meeting that he Lord Elton: I am glad to support the noble Lord, organised with many of the so-called stakeholders in Lord Addington, in that and to offer my support for this area some time ago. I ask the Minister perhaps to the amendment. However, we need to recognise that write to us on the situation and give the numbers of we are looking at the problem from inside the Bill, as it speech therapists that we have and are planning to were, and ought not to blinker ourselves to the fact develop. Finally, the more health visitors and social that this problem goes much wider, and needs wider workers we have, the less these sorts of problems are remedies, than are available in the Bill. likely to arise, because to some large degree they are a 399 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 400 function of poorly functioning families. If we have the are the responsibility of the YPLA or the Skills Funding right professionals in place to support families, some Agency. There are also concerns about how all disabled of these problems will simply either be noted very learners, particularly those who have not been formally early or not develop in the first place. assessed, will be identified as in need of assessment and subsequent support. I hope that the Minister will Lord De Mauley: Amendments 98 and 101 are be able to give us an assurance that learners without a indeed part of wider efforts—as my noble friend Lord learning difficulty assessment will not be disadvantaged Elton said, we will return to them—by your Lordships in post-16 provision and support. to secure appropriate provision for those who have Statutory guidance on Section 139A and learning difficulties by making sure that local education 140 assessments has only recently been published and authorities’ duties include testing for and identifying is open to public consultation until July. The draft those with learning difficulties and referring them to guidance does not refer to the new agency responsible additional support if needed. As no doubt the Minister for funding disabled learners, specifically the YPLA. will inform us, the Bill already states that the LEA, Instead, it refers to the Learning and Skills Council, “must secure that enough suitable education and training is provided to meet the reasonable needs of persons in their area”. which will cease to exist from 2010. This is of concern, as we want to be sure that the guidance is fit for This includes those who are aged 19 or over but purpose before the Bill receives Royal Assent. I referred under 25 and are subject to learning difficulty assessment. to this point at Second Reading. Disabled learners’ We would agree that, so far as it goes, this is an experiences of transition in post-16 learning and their important part of the duty of an education provider ability to make informed choices will depend largely and we welcome the fact that it is included in the Bill. on the final form that the guidance takes, so we want However, the amendment moved by the noble Lord, to be sure that there is robust, relevant and coherent Lord Ramsbotham, would make sure that the LEA guidance in place that delivers appropriate learning takes an active role in seeking to ensure that it has choices for all disabled learners aged 16 to 25. done all that it reasonably can to screen for, identify and then assess any learning difficulty. This, as he said, In the case of Alloway against the London Borough is considerably more than is specifically provided for of Bromley, the judgment concluded that there needs in the Bill. A superficial reading of new Section 15ZA(1) to be tighter control over the quality and compliance might lead one to conclude that the noble Lord’s of Section 139A and 140 assessments. Ensuring high- amendment is already covered. A diligent LEA might quality assessments is critical, as they determine the not need to have it spelt out in the Bill that securing provision and support that young people can access enough suitable education for all those for whom it is and, in turn, their learning outcomes and the possibility responsible includes screening, assessment and referral of progression. The YPLA, I want to suggest, needs to for additional support if necessary. Nevertheless, the establish a quality control framework that underpins worry would be that an overstretched, understaffed, the Section 139A and 140 assessment process. The inexperienced or underexperienced LEA might take a quality control framework must include disabled learners, more passive approach and simply address the needs parents and organisations representing disabled learners of those who requested extra assistance rather than in framing the provision and support that is to be imposing a rigorous assessment process to discover all made for individual disabled learners. A robust quality those who might potentially require help. control framework would ensure a high standard of Without a thorough assessment of the problems, professional expertise and experience without being there can be no hope of adequately providing for prescriptive about the specific qualifications that those who need help. Amendment 101, one hopes, professionals undertaking these assessments will be refines the definition of those who should be considered required to have. It is important that there is a framework as having learning difficulties by mentioning specific of accountability for the quality of Section 139A and conditions. It would be dangerous if some of the 140 assessments. Senior managers within the local conditions in this list were not to be considered covered authority or the commissioning agency, such as by paragraphs (a) or (b) of subsection (7). The noble Connexions, should be responsible for the final sign-off Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, emphasised the ability to of Section 139A and 140 assessments. This is particularly communicate, which encapsulates what most of these important in the light of the Alloway case, which specific conditions come down to. I hope that the concluded that Bromley and Connexions had not met Minister will be able to reassure us on these matters. their statutory duty properly to assess the learning and support needs of Stephen Alloway. 4.15 pm A quality control framework would ensure that the Lord Low of Dalston: I support this group of assessment process was equitable for all disabled learners amendments and take this opportunity to spell out the in need of it and would ensure consistency across local importance of the learning disability assessment for authority areas. Moreover, without such a framework young people with learning difficulties. I am president in place to control assessments of disabled young of the organisation Skill, the National Bureau for people, judicial reviews will increasingly be sought by Students with Disabilities. It has expressed concern parents and those with responsibility for disabled young about the learning difficulty assessment, as that will people. Implementing a quality control framework is determine the route that young people take in their beneficial for disabled young people and their families post-16 education and training. Whether or not a and for local authorities to ensure that they are meeting young person has a learning difficulty assessment will their new statutory duties under the Education and determine the level of support and provision that they Skills Act of last year and under this Bill once it receive and their entitlement, as well as whether they receives Royal Assent. 401 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 402

[LORD LOW OF DALSTON] providers have their own assessment tools to identify The duties and powers that LEAs have to arrange young people’s needs. They are also able to refer and provide an assessment must be highlighted to young people to the local authority and other specialist ensure that learners who need an assessment receive agencies if there is a previously undiagnosed difficulty one. Currently, many disabled learners face difficulties or concern. receiving an assessment, which poses a barrier to their participation in post-16 education and training. Local authorities have duties under Section 139A Assessments are intended to be holistic, addressing a of the Learning and Skills Act 2000 to carry out range of individual needs from learning support to assessments of pupils with statements in their final transport provision. It is important that we get an year of compulsory schooling, or during the sixth assurance that statutory guidance on the Section 139A form, who are intending to access further education or and 140 assessments highlights that, where a local HE. This is to ensure effective transition and that the authority believes that an assessment would benefit a special educational needs of these young people will learner regardless of whether the learner has been be met. We have strengthened the draft statutory assessed or supported before, it will arrange for an guidance on learning difficulties assessments, which is assessment to take place. I am seeking from the Minister currently subject to consultation, to make it clear an assurance that the assessment will cover the wider where local authorities should provide an assessment transition planning for disabled young people, including for young people without a statement. the learning and support needs of the given individual, Using the Learning for Living and Work Framework, such as their transport needs. the local authority, in conducting the assessment, will To sum up, we need the following assurances from work closely with a number of practitioners to ensure the Government today. First, we need to know that a truly multi-agency process. The more relevant agencies disabled learners without a learning difficulty assessment involved in this process, the greater the opportunity will not be disadvantaged in post-16 provision and for ensuring that particular issues are picked up. The support. Secondly, we need to know that there will be assessment process should build on the views and a robust quality control framework that will underpin expertise of these agencies and of other people who the Section 139A and 140 assessment processes. Thirdly, have already supported the young person. This is to there must be a framework of accountability for the ensure that the assessment of their educational and quality of Section 139A and 140 assessments, in which, training needs, and the provision needed to meet them, specifically, senior management within local authorities is evidence-based and valid. It will result in a report on or the commissioned agency, such as Connexions, will a young person’s needs that identifies the provision have responsibility for the final sign-off of these and support required to meet those needs. Local assessments. Fourthly, we want to know how local authorities will be required through the national authorities will identify and assess which disabled commissioning framework to have regard to the learners need an assessment and ensure that there are requirements set out in this report. sufficient qualified staff to undertake them. Fifthly, the assessment must cover the wider transition planning Of course, it is critical that these procedures work for disabled young people, including the learning and well in practice. I reassure noble Lords that Ofsted is support needs of a given individual, such as their currently conducting a major review of provision for transport needs. Sixthly, we need clarification on how children with special educational needs. This will include local authorities will identify young people who are the consideration of issues around young people’s not in education, employment and/or training as in transition from school to further education and the need of an assessment. Finally, professionals working assessment and support that they receive to help with with disabled children and young people in offender that transition and their continued success in further institutions should begin the assessment process of education. Ofsted will be reporting in the summer particular individuals who require it and have regard of 2010. to statutory guidance relating to Section 139A and 140 assessments. I hope that the Minister will be able While I understand the intention behind Amendment to reassure us on at least some of these points. 101, the definition used in this Bill is the established definition, which is more or less the same in both the Education Act 1996 and the Learning and Skills Act 2000, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, just altered slightly to take account of the different Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord ages of learners and the different types of institution Young of Norwood Green): I congratulate all noble that they attend. It is a broad definition that rightly Lords who have taken part in the debate, and I thank includes the difficulties listed in the amendment, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for initiating it. It well as many others. It is therefore not necessary to list has been a very wide-ranging and illuminating debate. selected ones separately. Indeed, I would be concerned On Amendment 98, I share the concern that we that doing so would risk creating the impression that should continue improving the identification and other types of learning difficulties were less important, assessment of children and young people with learning or even creating a hierarchy of needs, which I am sure difficulties. It is right that learners’ needs must be is not the intention of the amendment. We appreciate central to the commissioning process and to the functions that there are some serious challenges here, and we are of local authorities. I reassure the Committee that taking steps to improve the identification and assessment local authorities, alongside post-16 providers, will continue of learning difficulties for our young people and young to play an important role in identifying young people adults, but we acknowledge that a great deal more with learning difficulties. Many colleges and other needs to be done. 403 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 404

I shall address some of the specific points that were plan, providing the Government’s full response to the raised. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, talked Bercow report. The action plan sets out plans for a about the importance of early screening. On the question series of initiatives to improve services for this group of why we do not introduce the screening of all of children and young people, culminating in the children for a condition such as dyslexia, a review was National Yearof Speech, Language and Communication conducted by Jim Rose that concluded that blanket in 2011. We have set aside £12 million over the next screening for dyslexia is questionable, not least because three years to support the additional costs of these screening tests for that purpose are as yet unreliable. initiatives. We are not just talking about initiatives; we His report says that a better way to identify children at are also putting funding behind them and that is risk of literacy difficulties and dyslexia is to closely obviously important. observe and assess their responses to pre-reading and The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, referred to the early reading activities in comparison to their typically Communication Trust and I CAN. I am sure the noble developing peers in the reception year of primary Baroness will be pleased to hear that the Communication school and beyond. The review found that the first Trust has been commissioned to develop training material step advocated in identifying children who may have on speech, language and communication needs and learning difficulties including dyslexia is to notice dyslexia for those working with young people who are those making poor progress in comparison with their in contact with the criminal justice system. I am sure typically developing peers receiving high quality the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, will be pleased to wave 1 literacy teaching. We have endorsed all the hear about that. It is another example of the action recommendations and have made available £10 million that we are taking. We are also providing funding to support their implementation. totalling almost £1 million to Afasic, I CAN and the Lord Addington: I had information which suggested British Stammering Association through the CYPF that we might get a comment like that. Does the grant programme to support parents of children with Minister agree that if the method he described is the speech, language and communication needs. That is best way of catching those with these difficulties, we another positive action. will still miss many? The current education system The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is correct that we have misses dozens of people in that spectrum. Most of the introduced new measures in the 21st Century Schools suggestions in Amendment 101 relate to spectrums; if White Paper to support all children, particularly those you have screening or assessments later, you stand a who are falling behind. Every pupil will go to a school chance of picking up those on these spectrums who where they are taught in a way that meets their needs; have been missed. That is the suggestion here. There is their progress is regularly checked; additional needs the question of those who will not be picked up by are spotted early and quickly addressed; and every a test, even if they will not be left unidentified in such child will have a personal tutor. Every parent will great numbers as they are at the moment. It is a bit know how their child is being supported in their areas of a cop-out to say, “It isn’t a perfect answer, so we of weakness and stretched to develop their talents, won’t do it”. and receive real-time online reports about progress. There will be one-to-one tuition for any child aged 4.30 pm seven to 11 who is falling behind and not catching up, Lord Young of Norwood Green: We are not saying and one-to-one or small group tuition at the start of that we will not do it, or that we will not do anything. secondary school for all those are behind. That last That is the most important thing. We are trying to ensure, point addresses a concern expressed by the noble first, that teachers are fully trained to spot children Lord, Lord Lucas. with learning difficulties or potential learning difficulties. I will just finish my point about what we are trying The noble Lord, Lord Low, made a very wide-ranging to do. We have made available £10 million to support the contribution and I could not attempt to answer every implementation of the recommendations that Jim Rose point that he raised, so I hope he will understand that, made. Do not forget that these included the point where I cannot, I may need to write to him separately. about closely observing and assessing the responses of I can reassure him that the 139A assessment guidance all pre and early-reading activities. We are not, by any or consultation already states that where it is felt that a means, advocating doing nothing. We will also fund young person would benefit from an assessment, they around 4,000 teachers to train in appropriately accredited should get one. In response to another of the noble specialist dyslexia teaching over the next two years. Lord’s points on the question of those in further Surely that is a fundamentally important contribution; education, further education providers often have their it is a huge step forward and, really, it is an own assessment tools to screen for difficulties and can acknowledgement of all the pressure to take positive action refer to the local authority and other specialist agencies in this area that has come from this House. It is a huge if there is a previously undiagnosed difficulty or concern. response. We will be looking with the Dyslexia-Specific They do not complete a 139A assessment, since the Learning Difficulties Trust and other partners at how LSC is unable to accept one from this source. They we and they might best work together to implement may contribute to one or request one to be completed Jim Rose’s recommendations and to encourage local to include results of tests they carry out. Routinely authorities and schools to do so. We expect to provide providers may screen all applicants for foundation further details about this in the autumn. level courses for potential learning difficulties. In December 2008 the Department for Children, Screening can include literacy and numeracy Schools and Families published Better Communication, testing, speech, language and communication difficulties the speech, language and communication needs action assessment and dyslexia. If a more complex difficulty 405 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 406

[LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN] where this amendment came from; concern about is uncovered, providers can refer to specialist health consistent delivery around the country. I am also professionals, such as clinical psychologists, or fund grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Low, for his coverage support strategies, such as the use of a learning assistant. of the problems of the disabled, which again shows Time does not permit me to describe fully all that that this is something that is universally covered. process. We are also trying to ensure that the quality of I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. As training for those who are involved in the Connexions many noble Lords have said, this subject will come service is improved. We will write in more detail to the back in connection with other clauses. Therefore, rather noble Lord, Lord Low. than merely drop the matter, it might be sensible to In conclusion, as a number of noble Lords noticed, wait and see what comes out of the various other this issue does go wider than the Bill, but I hope that, discussions on the Bill and conversations with the taken together with the other measures that I have Minister and the Bill team. At that point those of us described, as well as those we are taking through the who have raised questions can consider what further Bill, that noble Lords will appreciate that there is a action needs to be taken on Report and possibly at huge amount of work going on in this area. With later stages. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw those assurances, I trust that the noble Lord will be the amendment. prepared to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 98 withdrawn. The Earl of Listowel: Briefly, do we have enough Amendments 99 to 101 not moved. speech therapists? What is being done to recruit more and to retain them, if that is an issue? If he would write to me with some detail on that, I would appreciate it. Amendment 102 Moved by Lord Elton Lord Ramsbotham: First, I thank all those noble 102: Clause 40, page 24, line 35, at end insert— Lords who have taken part in the debate. The fact that “( ) In this section “reasonable needs” includes the need to so many different aspects came up shows that there is communicate effectively in English.” a general perception of the very serious nature of this. I was very grateful, in particular, to the noble Baroness, Lord Elton: I wish to speak also to Amendment 123. Lady Walmsley, for bringing out the figures, and to The Committee knows that my eye is apt to be the noble Lord, Lord Addington, for mentioning tests. caught by small words. I read through Clause 40 with I am very glad that we had this discussion because, far some reservations and agreeable sensations. New be it for a layman like me to tilt with someone like Section 15ZA(1) states: Sir Jim Rose, but I have to say that there are, as I “A local education authority … must secure that enough understand it, tests which can, at least, identify that suitable education and training is provided to meet the reasonable the problem is there, without going further. This seems needs of persons in their area”. to be a case of the danger of the best being the enemy I eventually came to new subsection (8), which states: of the good. “But a person is not to be taken to have a learning difficulty solely because the language (or form of language) in which The tests being developed by the Royal College of the person is or will be taught is different from a language (or Speech and Language Therapists, which cover the form of language) which has at any time been spoken in the whole raft of difficulties, not just dyslexia, seem to me person’s home”. to give a very valuable tool. In that connection, I was In other words, we are looking at somebody for whom intrigued to see another report by Professor Karen English is a second language. I wondered what “solely” Brown of work she had done in Leeds with young was intended to mean. It seems reasonable that somebody people on special supervision orders, which shows having English as a second language should never of that there are tools available, of which better use can itself be considered a form of learning difficulty. Then be made. I considered where this might bite. It seems to me I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Elton, there is a grey and worrying area if somebody who has for mentioning the wider aspects of this. I should English as a second language and speaks some other mention that the aim of the Helen Hamlyn trial was to language at home—his parents speak only that get speech and language therapists in every young language—also has a communication difficulty such offender institution and special training centre. The as we discussed on the previous amendment. There is cost at that time was assessed at £30,000 per year per a great danger that the existence of this subsection will therapist. At that time, the Prison Service and the blind those looking after him to his actual and real Youth Justice Board were prepared to look at that needs. I can see that the noble Lord is looking at me funding provision. Unfortunately, the Prime Minister’s with some reservations. I am used to that but I hope I respect agenda came along with a £90 million bill, can reassure him that this is a reasonable request. If £30 million of which came from the Home Office, somebody is having difficulty with a language which is which effectively took all the money out of the Prison his own, it is immediately apparent. If he is having Service and the Youth Justice Board’s ability to fund difficulty with a language which is not his own, it is them. I remember questioning whether there was anything not apparent that that difficulty springs from anything more respectable than being able to communicate—surely except the fact that it is not his own language. I am the provision should have come out of the respect anxious that people in danger of being caught in that agenda, not the other way round. situation should be protected, which is why I have I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, asked that at the end of new Section 15ZA we should for mentioning the problem of consistency between point out in an additional subsection: local area authorities, which, of course, is precisely “In this section “reasonable needs”— 407 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 408

That is where the new section started— Lord St John of Fawsley: May I pursue the important “includes the need to communicate effectively in English”. question raised by my noble friend Lord Baker? The That is where we finished the debate on the previous representatives on the Front Bench opposite have been amendment. I think we are agreed that that is a reduced by thirty-three and a third per cent. necessity for somebody. I think we are already apprised of the fact that an inability to communicate effectively Lord Baker of Dorking: The noble Baroness is leads to great frustration and can lead to criminality. coming back. Seeing something, wanting it badly and not being able to explain what you want or why you want it so badly Lord St John of Fawsley: Welcome back. We would leads people eventually to take it and not obtain it in be very interested to know the result of the noble the proper way. Baroness’s mission. Would it be appropriate for the There is a related consideration in Amendment 123. Minister to interpret what the result of the exit of this dove from the ark has been? Perhaps it was an exit of a more formidable type of bird. 4.45 pm Lord Baker of Dorking: Before my noble friend Baroness Walmsley: Perhaps I might pursue the continues his argument, would he consider asking the matter under discussion. Inability to communicate Government to adjourn the Committee, because there effectively in English is not the exclusive domain of is no Member from the government party on their people whose first language is not English. Many Back Benches? For a party which thought that young people have grown up speaking English right “Education, education, education” was so important, from the start, but their vernacular is so dense that I should have thought that someone might be present many of us cannot understand a word they say. to support this Bill; but there is no one. The massed I recently had the experience of reading—not just ranks of the Conservatives, the Liberals and the Cross listening to—a transcript of a conversation between Benches may able to win a Division or two. That is a two or three young people. I do not think they knew at real danger to the Government. Perhaps my noble the time they were being recorded, but that is by the friend could elicit from them whether they are likely to by. I could not understand a single word they said. adjourn the Committee. The words they used for commonly understood objects and actions were so different from the ones with which I am familiar that it made their conversation totally Lord Elton: Perhaps if I concluded my introductory dense to me. I could not understand a word of it. We speech, it would give the Government time, if I extended need to consider those young people as well. it a little, to send out harbingers to the Bishops’ Bar About a year ago I came across an initiative that and the Lords Tea Room. That would be the sporting took place in prisons. Actors went in to work with thing to do. young people on a Shakespeare play. To many people I return to my Amendment 123, in which, in Clause 47, the language of Shakespeare is also rather dense. That page 30, line 13, I insert similar words to those exercise got the young people to consider the language in Amendment 102. The clause relates to people in and its richness. They began to use language which the detention. For reasons that have just been stated, we majority of the population would understand. They are not in a hurry to get to the end of this. On page 29, became more confident in themselves in so doing, Clause 47 inserts new Section 18A into the 1996 Act. particularly because they could communicate their In subsection (1)(a) there is a requirement on the local feelings to not just each other but also other people education authority to secure, who had some power over them. I submit that this is “enough suitable education is provided to meet the reasonable an important factor to bear in mind, too. needs of children subject to youth detention in their area”. There is no reservation about second languages there— Lord Elton: I entirely accept that. My amendment which may be a little odd, because they are fairly well will help them as well. represented in prisons. For the reasons that I have just given, inability to communicate effectively in English Lord De Mauley: I thank my noble friend Lord is a great contributor to criminality in this country Elton for raising this issue, which he has pursued and to failure in education. That, in turn, is a contributor assiduously throughout many Bills and debates in to criminality. Therefore, it is as well to emphasise to your Lordships’ House. As he says, there is a link the authorities that when they are dealing with people between the decline of key interpersonal skills and the in detention it is even more necessary than elsewhere increase in criminality. The issue was referred to by the that “reasonable needs” shall be seen to include the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, in the previous group need to communicate effectively in English. of amendments. It is also important—my noble friend I am not sure how this will play, but perhaps the mentioned this—that Amendment 123 refers to that noble Baroness or the noble Lord when he replies can part of the Bill dealing with persons detained in youth tell us. Will this part of the Bill apply to Wales? If it accommodation. will, has the Welsh Assembly agreed to it? Although There are well proven connections between low Welsh is an official language in Wales, I think that we academic achievement and a propensity towards agreed that you cannot have an effective life in a criminality, which my noble friend made clear. The community in Wales without also speaking fluently in Minister will agree with much that has been said. He English. With those observations, and wondering what will say that the Bill is the cure, at least partly, for these will happen to attendance on the other side of the ills. That may be the case. We all hope that this Bill, House, I beg to move. once improved, could play such a part. 409 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 410

[LORD DE MAULEY] up a basic command of English. Some of the nuances One of the primary concerns that the Opposition take time, but they are assessed not just for their has been raising for a long time is that equipping ability to speak the language but for any underlying young people with the skills they need not just to stay problems. That does not mean that I do not recognise in education or training but to embrace them and the importance of the issue. prosper from them is key to keeping them on the We fully recognise the importance of good straight and narrow later in life. I do not doubt the communication skills for all young people and adults sincerity of the Government’s aim to reach the same so that they are better placed to succeed in learning, goals but once again raise our concern that they are work and life. That is why in England we are developing dealing with a problem simply by throwing more functional skills in English which, along with functional legislation at it. Has the Minister had a chance to read skills in mathematics and information and communication his Daily Telegraph lately? Has he reflected on the technology, form the core of all learning routes for extraordinary broadside upon this Government’s 14 to 19 year-olds. Pilots on that include young people education policies delivered only the other day by the in custody. Functional skills in English contain a DCSF’s own former director-general of schools? Ralph range of communication skills and have been developed Tabberer said that under this Government, teaching in consultation with employers and other stakeholders children the difference between right and wrong had to ensure that they meet the skill needs of our modern been neglected. That is pretty strong stuff from someone world, to ensure that everyone in England who needs who has seen the education system from close up. them has access to those functional skills qualifications. This goes right to the heart of the point my noble Through Clause 44, we are legislating to place friend has raised with these amendments. It is not just responsibility on local authorities in England to secure bald examination results that matter but educating the core entitlement for 16 to 19 year-olds. The core young people in the round. The “disconnect”—if I entitlement is to a course of study in English, mathematics can used a buzzword—that some young people feel and information and communication technology. It is between them and the rest of society is at the root of intended to ensure that no young person misses out on many anti-social problems. It is a reason for great the opportunity to develop vital functional skills to concern if, as Mr Tabberer suggests, that problem is level 2 in English, mathematics and ICT. Employers being exacerbated rather than healed by our education and higher education institutions have told us that system. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s young people need those skills to succeed in the workplace opinion as it seems pertinent to the debate. and in further learning. I am sure that we all concur I welcome my noble friend’s amendment as a timely with that. opportunity to debate this issue. He may wish to Clause 47 places new duties on local education revisit the topic at a later stage, perhaps when, as my authorities in England and Wales to ensure that enough noble friend Lord Baker suggested, the Government suitable education and training is provided to meet the are rather better represented on their Back Benches. reasonable needs of persons subject to detention in To help him to decide that and noble Lords to consider relevant youth accommodation. In doing so, the Bill the matter further, can the Minister furnish the Committee provides that local authorities must have regard to any with some statistics? For instance, what are the special educational needs or learning difficulties that Government’s most up-to-date figures for the number those persons may have. It also provides that local of people who are not in employment, education or authorities in England must have regard to the desirability training? What proportion of those have a criminal of the core entitlement being satisfied for those subject record? How many have a persistent criminal record? to youth detention. We will make it clear in statutory What is the proportion of people aged under 25 currently guidance that we expect the core entitlement to be serving a custodial or community sentence who have delivered in juvenile custody. We will also be clear in below average results in their GCSEs? How does that the guidance on the need for support to meet young compare with the general population? people’s needs where they speak English as an additional I realise that the Minister may not have those statistics language. at his fingertips, but this is an area that deserves close To address some of the specific points made, I was attention. I would be content if he were to write to asked: why not cover English as a second language noble Lords with those figures before Report. under Clause 40? Because we believe that all 16 to 18 year-olds will be developing functional skills in Lord Young of Norwood Green: I thank the noble English to level 2 anyway. That is their core entitlement, Lord, Lord Elton, for initiating this interesting debate. as I have already explained. We have a new approach During his initial contribution, I was ruminating on to teaching English for speakers of other languages. I whether to declare an interest. I am a school governor am happy to send the noble Lord, Lord Elton, a copy at my local primary school, where we are addressing of that document. Does the core entitlement apply in the very problem that he talked about, where English Wales? No. The additional entitlement duties for 14 to is the second language. We have 29 languages spoken 19 year-olds apply only to local education authorities at our school, which, compared to some inner London in England. Will the offender clauses apply in Wales? schools, is not many. We take a number of special Yes, they will. steps, including bringing parents in with the children I hope the noble Lord will agree that legislating for to help the parent—it is usually mothers who attend the core entitlement for post-16s through Clause 44, the classes, not men. We also have our specifically along with the general duties in Clauses 40 and 47, will trained SEN teacher. From my experience, one impressive mean that this amendment, while well intentioned, is thing is how quickly many of those young people pick unnecessary, and that he feels able to withdraw it. 411 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 412

5pm Baroness Verma: Amendment 102A is a probing amendment, which is merely designed to draw attention Lord De Mauley: The Minister mentioned bringing to the fact that devolution of the funding of academies certain information forward, but he did not refer to raises real questions about the future of sixth forms in the information I requested. those schools. This is a concern felt by many groups. Dr. Daniel Moynihan, chief executive of the Harris Lord Young of Norwood Green: I was interested in Foundation Academy Group, said: what the noble Lord said. I must admit I do not “In one local authority we were told by a different body from always rely on the Telegraph as my source of statistical the Learning and Schools Council that we could not open sixth information or educational analysis, but I would not forms in two of our academies”. discount it totally. In my experience in teaching right The reason given was that it did not fit with the plan. and wrong at my primary school, I believe it is In another place, the Minister attempted to reassure encompassed in the syllabus. We have a clear set of the House by stating that all that the Bill really allowed procedures for dealing with disciplinary problems. Also, was the Secretary of State to ask the YPLA to undertake interestingly, I believe that the latest Ofsted reports some largely administrative functions in relation to have shown a general improvement in behaviour, so I academies and that it would not affect the nature of can counter with that information. We will, however, the funding of academies. He added that if agreement supply the noble Lord with the statistics he asked for could not be reached about adding a new sixth form to on NEETs. an existing academy, the views of the academy, the 14-to-19 partnership and the local authority would be Lord Elton: I take the Minister’s point about my taken into account, while the Secretary of State, not second amendment, because the clause does not have the local authority, would be responsible for the decision. the reservation about second language, which slightly This is, to some extent, reassuring. I do not want the obscures the issue in the clause to which my first Minister to think that I have come at this amendment amendment relates. Therefore, I will not move with all guns blazing. We merely seek assurances about Amendment 123 when we get to it. the role of the provider in assessing the need for a sixth form in an existing academy. It should be enough for I should thank noble Lords who have taken part in the academy to state that there is a need for further this debate: my noble friend Lord Baker, who was in a provision or that it is unnecessary. rather teasing mood, which we shall put behind us in order to get on with work, and the noble Baroness, How will the assessment for an additional academy Lady Walmsley, who made an extremely important sixth form work? What role will be allocated to the point. academy in the decision-making process? Will it be one of consultation, or one of decision-making? The I am hesitant about what the Minister said about concern, as the Minister is aware, is that in a scenario Amendment 102. I was surprised that he found it in which the independence of academies has already necessary to say that the professional organisations been reduced, is it really right that the need for a new had confirmed that it was necessary for people coming academy sixth form should be addressed by a process to employment to have fluent English or a means of that risks damaging their independence still further? I communicating effectively. The point I was trying to remain concerned and seek further reassurances from make in the previous debate was that one actually her. I beg to move. needs it for life: in order to be effective, not to be a criminal, to enjoy oneself and raise a happy family. So it goes outside this Bill, and we do not need professionals Baroness Perry of Southwark: Briefly, I offer my to tell us that. strongest support for the amendment. This policy for academies is clearly shared by both parties and by I say to the Minister that I still think there is a both Conservative and Labour supporters. Academies danger of confusion or possible mistakes arising out have already begun to prove their worth, and it is very of the passage which says that if one has English as a important for any school to be able to develop a sixth second language, this should not, on its own, mean form if it so wishes. It is very difficult to recruit the that one has specific learning difficulties. That could best subject teachers unless you can offer them sixth-form lead to confusion in the future, so I would like to think teaching as well. Many 11-to-16 schools and their about what the Minister sends me between now and pupils found life extremely difficult, because they were the autumn, and look forward to seeing him then. I devoid of good strong subject staff. beg leave to withdraw the amendment. I hope that the Minister supports the need for every academy to be able to develop a sixth form if it so Amendment 102 withdrawn. wishes without any intervention from the local education authority that may prevent it from developing it in a Amendment 102A way in which it logically needs to develop if it is to fulfil its academic purpose. Moved by Baroness Verma 102A: Clause 40, page 24, line 35, at end insert— Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: I very much hope “( ) In performing the duty imposed by subsection (4)(a), a that I will be able to offer the noble Baroness, Lady local authority is required to fund sixth form provision of— Verma, the reassurance that she is looking for. It (a) an existing academy without a sixth form which intends might be helpful to say for the record that we expect to to establish a sixth form; or open more than 60 academies in September. Only four (b) a new academy with a sixth form.” of those will not have sixth forms, so I would like to 413 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 414

[BARONESS MORGAN OF DREFELIN] expect, and other local partners through the local quash in one move the impression that academies do 14-to-19 partnership and look at feeding into the local not have sixth forms as a norm. The coming year will authority’s commissioning plans through that partnership. see the opening of our 200th academy, and we can join However, if there is a disagreement locally about the in celebrating that when it comes around. It is a shame number of academy places to be funded, the matter that the noble Lord, Lord Baker, is not in his place to would be referred to the Young People’s Learning hear that comment. Work undertaken by noble Lords Agency, acting on behalf of the Secretary of State under in this House has contributed greatly to that achievement, the proposed agency arrangements, for consideration. and we are very grateful to them for that. We are Any decisions on academy sixth form places must particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bates, have regard to the views of local providers, the local who is in his place. authority and the policy guidance provided by the Just to be clear, the Secretary of State, as noble Secretary of State. Again, I understand academies’ Lords are aware, funds academies directly, including concerns because I am very careful to listen to them, their sixth-form places. In future, the Young People’s but again, there are safeguards. First, the Secretary of Learning Agency will act on behalf of the Secretary of State will make the final decision on any change of age State in carrying out academy functions, including range in an academy, including where this involves a funding academy sixth-form provision. When the YPLA new sixth form. In doing so, he will take into account acts on academies, it is acting as the agent of the the views of all stakeholders as he does now. The Secretary of State. So the Secretary of State still holds obligation on academies to consult before they open is the powers, but through an annual remit letter, the in Section 482(3)(a) of the Education Act 1996. I am Secretary of State will be delegating to the YPLA the having difficulty reading the note. I will therefore write work of funding academies. to noble Lords to clarify that because I am not sure Local authorities do not, and will not, provide that that is right. funding to academies and there is no need for them to do so. The local authority’s role will be to secure 5.15 pm provision that meets the needs of learners. In doing so, In relation to the funding of additional sixth form they must, among other things, act with a view to places, if an academy felt that the YPLA had acted encouraging diversity in both provider type and unreasonably in reaching its decision, it could complain curriculum, and so increase opportunities for young directly to the Secretary of State, who would investigate. people to exercise choice. This is a new process and I In order to make things as transparent as possible, I understand academies’ nervousness about how it will can today commit to ensuring that whenever the YPLA work and how it might impact on their sixth forms, in makes a decision which prevents an open academy particular. However, there are a number of safeguards from increasing the size of its sixth form it must built in for academies which carefully balance those publish its reasons for that decision and why it was in concerns alongside what must be the overall aim, the best interests of pupils. Obviously, in terms of the which is to ensure that the commissioning of post-16 academy’s ability to challenge any decision, that places puts pupils first. transparency is very important. I would like to emphasise that local authorities will Secondly, we must remember that the YoungPeople’s not be responsible for approving or funding post-16 Learning Agency will be acting under a remit letter, as provision in academies. For a new academy, the Secretary I stressed at the start of my remarks, from the Secretary of State will continue to decide whether it will open a of State in respect of academies. Each year we will sixth form, having consulted the local authority. This issue a new remit letter, which may contain guidance is what happens now. Academies are understandably as to how the YPLA should act in relation to sixth curious as to what influence a local authority might forms. So, again, I can commit that before we issue a have at that stage. In establishing a new academy, the remit letter we will consult academy sponsors so that Secretary of State must make a sensible decision about their views on how the YoungPeople’s Learning Agency what is in the best interests of learners. He cannot do is operating can be taken into account. This is a very that unless he has some understanding of the academy’s important part of the process between the Secretary of impact on other local providers. That point needs to State issuing the remit letter to the YPLA and, in the be taken into account if he is to make a sensible lead up to the issuing of that letter, the Secretary of decision. He must, therefore, consult local authorities. State will consult academy sponsors. In fact, nothing is changing in that respect from what We want to work with all stakeholders, including happens now. The Secretary of State currently consults academies. In response to earlier stakeholder events, on these matters with local authorities before opening we will set up a new academies’ reference group to academies. That obligation has existed since the academies’ work with the Secretary of State on the detail of the programme began and is written into primary legislation. YPLA academy arrangements. The group will meet I do not actually have the reference here and I apologise termly and the first meeting will take place before the for that. That consultation has not led to a high end of September. Noble Lords may have seen the proportion of academies without sixth forms and that announcement on 30 June of the appointments of Les will not change. As I have said, of the 60-plus academies Walton as chair of the YoungPeople’s Learning Agency opening at the beginning of the next academic year, and Peter Lauener who will be its first chief executive the vast majority will have sixth forms. officer, subject to parliamentary process and Royal An existing academy wishing to establish a sixth Assent. Les and Peter are extremely keen to work with form, or increase the number of post-16 places, would stakeholders to ensure a smooth transition to the new naturally engage with the local authority, as you would arrangements. 415 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 416

To conclude this slightly longer contribution than I That brings us to the question of how it will be paid had planned, these new arrangements for academies for. Are we again to have a separation between the and local authorities must ultimately put the needs of power of commissioning and the power of payment? I learners first, as I am sure noble Lords will agree. will leave the question short and simple at this stage. It However, we have put in place sufficient protections to may be that the Minister can deal with it quickly, and ensure that academies can be assured that decisions content me in the process. I beg to move. will be taken fairly and in a transparent manner. On the basis of these reassurances, I hope that the noble Baroness Sharp of Guildford: From these Benches, I Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment. will say briefly that we share the concern raised by the noble Lord, Lord Elton. As he rightly says, it is a Baroness Verma: I thank the Minister for her response question not only of whether such instruction can be and my noble friend Lady Perry for supporting the issued, but also of how payment is made. amendment. The Minister has offered reassurance that, on the face of it, allays my fears. But I should like to read carefully what she has said and if need be Lord De Mauley: My noble friend Lord Elton has return to the subject. For the moment, I beg leave to raised another well considered probing point, and I withdraw the amendment. look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. Clause 43, through its insertion of new Section 51A into the Amendment 102A withdrawn. Further and Higher Education Act 1992, creates the power for a local education authority to require an Amendments 102B and 103 not moved. institution to provide an education for a named individual. I expect that such a power will be used as a last Clause 40 agreed. resort—I cannot imagine that any of us want to see the power being used. Far better to reach a situation Clause 41 : Encouragement of education and training where all parties—institution, individual and LEA—are for persons over compulsory content with the position. However, I accept the argument Amendments 104 and 105 not moved. that from time to time this power might be needed. The attraction of my noble friend’s amendment, Clause 41 agreed. were it to be adopted, would be to make sure that an LEA looked after its own. It could not despatch a Clause 42 agreed. problem individual across an authority boundary and wash its hands of him. We do not want to see a Clause 43 : Power to require provision of education scenario where the individual is shunted from pillar by institution within further education sector to post as LEAs squabble over who should do what. However, it would be useful to have flexibility in Amendment 106 this matter, because it may be that the most suitable Moved by Lord Elton institution to provide the education is across an LEA boundary. In that case, it would be petty bureaucracy 106: Clause 43, page 25, line 40, at end insert— of the worst kind to deny the person a fresh start “( ) A local education authority may serve a notice on an because the money and the order-making power cannot institution under subsection (2) only if that institution is located cross the invisible line that exists only on departmental in that authority’s area.” maps. Lord Elton: This is a probing amendment that My noble friend is right to ask how the matter of stands on its own. I want to use it to clarify two things. money will be settled. Who will pay—and who ought One is the way that the machinery described in the to pay? If a cash-strapped LEA sends an individual to clause works. The other picks up on the question another area that has both places and resources, should raised by my noble friend Lord Lucas about funding, the latter not make a contribution? Or could the to see how the money and responsibility chains work second area, with some justification, argue that the in this context, as well as in the context referred to by problem was none of its concern, thank you very my noble friend. much? This is a question about bureaucracy: the principles The clause header is: are not being questioned, but rather how it will work “Power to require provision of education by institution within in practice. If the Minister were able to give some further education sector”. examples of problems that he and his officials have In subsection (1) of proposed new Section 51A to the foreseen, and the solutions that they have devised, we 1992 Act, we find that the institution is, might be much happier to accept the clause. “an institution in England within the further education sector which provides education suitable to the requirements of persons Lord Lucas: Is the clause aimed at people who have over compulsory school age but under the age of 19”. found themselves without the educational opportunity That is perfectly clear. It appears that this power can that they want, but are otherwise perfectly equable be exercised throughout England, but not throughout individuals; or is it aimed at finding a home for those Wales. That is my first question. Can a local authority who are difficult and disruptive, to whom schools have in Cornwall require a local authority in Hampshire or tried not to offer a place? To my mind, the wording of Northumberland to provide education? The power is subsection (2)(a) makes rather a difference. If a person rightly restricted to use in connection with young is willing to be taught, to require an institution to people in their own authority, but is not restricted to provide them with education is a reasonable thing to applications to institutions within their own authority. do. If what a person wants to be doing is spending the 417 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 418

[LORD LUCAS] I would also like to address the practical implications night DJ-ing and the day sleeping, then how can you of the amendment. There are two reasons why we require an institution to provide them with an education? should avoid putting in the Bill a limitation only to use You can require it to try, but you cannot require it to the powers for colleges in their area. do it. Lord Elton: If the noble Lord and the Committee Lord Young of Norwood Green: Clause 43 gives would allow me a little time, this is a strictly probing local authorities powers that the Learning and Skills amendment. I have no intention of making that restriction, Council currently has to require an institution but only gesturing as a means of extracting the information within the further education sector to provide he is giving me about the circumstances when it would education to a named individual aged 16 or over but not be permitted if I put that restriction there, so he under 19. Amendment 106 seeks to limit the use of can leave that bit out. I am not sure if that is welcome that power to those institutions within the local to those who want to go home late, but it is certainly authorities’ own boundaries as the noble Lord, Lord welcome to those who want to go home early. Elton, made clear. I understand the intention behind the noble Lord’s Lord Young of Norwood Green: If I was just addressing amendment is to seek clarification on how funding the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, maybe across a local authority boundary will operate. The I could do that, but as there have been other points duties rest on every local authority to secure made during the contribution I cannot, but I will try sufficient provision for the young people in their area. to be brief. I was asked to give an example, and a good Young people move around, and local authorities one is this. At least one local authority in the Isles of must work together to ensure that they still have a Scilly does not have a college in its boundary. It is choice, which seems to be have been the theme of a obvious that this amendment would make it impossible number of the debates that we have had today. To for it to direct an institution in order to secure provision facilitate that co-operation, as I have previously said, for its young people. local authorities have voluntarily come together into This power is intended to ensure that we can help 43 sub-regional groupings to act as planning bodies. our most vulnerable young people who might have Over the next few months the lead commissioning problems securing a place. Young offenders, once they authority for every provider will be identified. For leave detention to begin along the road to recovery, many, this will be the authority in which they are must be supported to participate and thus make a physically located. The Young People’s Learning more positive contribution to society. Here I hope that Agency will be established to ensure that the plans I am addressing the concerns expressed by the noble brought forward are coherent and affordable. Lord, Lord Lucas. By accepting the amendment we The noble Lord seeks to know what happens to the would limit both the choice of a young person and the funding when there is a cross-border flow of young ability of a local authority to secure the best quality people. The aim is to use that planning system and the provision for the most vulnerable among our young information schools and colleges already have to people. A power to direct should be used when there is better predict where young people will choose to no other choice. It is a tool of last resort, and that is study before any money flows at all. We do not want why the LSC has never had to use it. It is possible that to return to the bureaucratic days of recoupment. the knowledge that the power exists means that the Instead local authorities will be given indicative commissioner and the commission need to focus on budgets based on the information from the current the needs of the learner. and next year’s 16 to 19 allocation processes that will I think that I have covered the question of whether enable them to plan more effectively. an authority in Cornwall might require a provider in The YPLA will support that planning with high-quality, Northumbria or Hampshire. Yes, and as we have said real-time analysis drawing on information from its previously, the funding will follow the learner. So I own systems as well as from Connexions services, hope that, with my explanation, the noble Lord will schools and colleges. As a plan is developed and feel able to withdraw his amendment. signed off, it will be clear to where the vast majority of the money must flow, and the YPLA will then issue 5.30 pm final budgets to ensure providers are paid. Baroness Sharp of Guildford: Perhaps I may put one Where a local authority has directed a college to further question to the Minister. What about sixth take a young person on, we would expect that the form colleges? Would a local authority be able to directing local authority would have discussed the request a sixth form college to reserve a place for a issue with the “host” local authority and the college particular individual? I believe that under other legislation, first, and that all parties have reached an agreement authorities have the right to ask a school to provide a on how that place will be funded. The YPLA will place in the sixth form. have to be notified, so it continues to monitor and adjust its records of places and budgets. We do not Lord Young of Norwood Green: The answer is yes. expect, nor want, an authority to create a financial cost in another authority and we will look to the Lord Lucas: The noble Lord said that the funding conditions of grant that the YPLA will establish follows the learner, but what he said previously amounted under Clause 60 as the mechanism for ensuring the to saying that the funding does not follow the learner system operates smoothly when a local authority feels because he was talking about no recruitment and the the need to use Clause 43. difficulty of having to arrange the finance where an 419 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 420 unexpected cross-border transaction such as the one (b) a further education college, envisaged in this clause takes place. It seems that the who are over compulsory school age, but under 19, with meals. funding follows the commissioned learner, but that if (2) Where provision is made under subsection (1) it shall be learners choose to do something different, there is no made in a case within paragraph (a) or (b) of that subsection, mechanism for transferring that funding. That is what either on the college premises or at any other place where education I understood the noble Lord to say. is being provided. (3) A local education authority shall exercise their power Lord Young of Norwood Green: Briefly, I am absolutely under subsection (1) to provide college lunches for any person emphatic that the funding follows the learner. The if— difficulty lies in trying to put across the question of (a) any prescribed requirements are met; the commissioning process. We have said that we will (b) a request for the provision of college lunches has been write with a further explanation and I will honour that made by or on behalf of that person to the authority; commitment. But I am clear that the funding will and follow the learner. When we talked about the bad old (c) either— days, there was a question of recoupment with much (i) that person is eligible for free lunches (within the exchanging of invoices between local authorities. meaning of section 512ZB(4) of the Education We certainly do not want to return to that, and we Act 1996 (c. 56)); or will not. (ii) in the case of a person within subsection (1)(a), it would not be unreasonable for the authority to Lord Elton: That makes it much more difficult to provide the lunches. imagine what will happen if the young person in (4) Where the local education authority provide a lunch in question decides that he does not like Hampshire but accordance with subsection (3) to a person who is eligible for free there is a good course in Devon and he goes to take it lunches, the authority shall provide the meal free of charge.” up. Is the place cancelled at some cost to Hampshire Baroness Sharp of Guildford: The amendment concerns and is his place in Devon paid for by Cornwall? I a question of equity. Under Section 512 of the Education realise that all this is to be set out in a letter, but I am Act 1996, local authorities have the power to provide trying to tell the noble Lord what we would like his free meals for registered pupils at a school. If a pupil is letter to contain. The noble Lord might also take a eligible for free school meals, the local authority or the look at Hansard because he started by saying of Clause 43 school governors have a duty to provide the lunch free that it is about the exercise of a power which the local of charge. Every registered pupil at a school is entitled authority already has. I thought that that is what I to free school meals if they or their parents qualify heard him say, and it does require some elucidation. If under Section 512. This includes sixth-formers in a the authority already has the power, it does not seem school but does not apply to pupils at a sixth-form necessary to confer it again. college or in a further education college, as these Lord Young of Norwood Green: Clause 43 gives establishments are not classified as schools. local authorities a power that the Learning and Skills The 363 colleges in England have a central role in Council currently has. educating disadvantaged young people. Indeed, 69 per cent of 16 to 18 year-olds receiving the highest rate of Lord Elton: I am much obliged. How useful it is to educational maintenance allowances study at colleges. speak from a script. I have one further question, but I There is an issue of equity because, although young shall have to ask it in a debate on clause stand part. I people in colleges take similar courses to their counterparts say that now so that the Deputy Chairman of Committees in schools, Ministers at the DCSF confirmed in a knows that I intend to raise a brief question at that Parliamentary Answer last year that the Government point. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the have no plans to provide free meals for college students, amendment. even though the learning participation age is being Amendment 106 withdrawn. raised. The abolition of the Learning and Skills Council and the return of funding for 16 to 18 year-olds to Debate on whether Clause 43 should stand part of the local authorities make this anomaly even more Bill. unsupportable. We—I am arguing on the behalf of the Association of Colleges—consider that the proposed Lord Elton: Unfortunately I have not brought with new clause would ensure that all 16 to 18 year-olds are me the Act which is to be amended by this Bill so as to treated equally regardless of where they study. I beg ask about the effect of the insertions into Section 52(2) to move. of that Act relating to Wales. I am perfectly happy to have the answer to that question as a postscript to the Lord Baker of Dorking: Can the noble Baroness letter the noble Lord has already contracted to write. give any indication of what the costs are likely to be if Clause 43 agreed. her amendment is passed? Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I have no idea of the Amendment 107 cost. I shall find out precisely what it is and write to Moved by Baroness Sharp of Guildford the noble Lord. 107: After Clause 43, insert the following new Clause— “Free meals for 16 to 18 year olds in colleges Baroness Perry of Southwark: I know that none of (1) A local education authority may provide registered students us is anxious at this stage of our country’s history to at— add to the public costs, but there is an issue of equity (a) a sixth form college; or here. The previous Bill made education compulsory 421 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 422

[BARONESS PERRY OF SOUTHWARK] meal? How would this work? It would be a substantial for 16 to 18 year-olds. They are now in exactly the extra cost to the Government if they said yes to this same legal capacity as five to 16 year-olds—they are move. required to be in education or training—and it seems only equitable to consider at least some kind of subsidy Baroness Perry of Southwark: In answer to my for their meals. I am sure that in reply the Minister will noble friend, the proposal from the Liberal Democrat tell us about the education maintenance grant that is Front Bench is only for those who would qualify for already received by these young people, but the point free meals because they were unable to pay, in the is that it is already received for other purposes; it is not same way as it applies for five to 16 year-olds. for the purpose of their meals. There is a real issue. Lord Young of Norwood Green: I thank the noble The proposal is perhaps a long-term aspiration of Baroness, Lady Sharp; she has revealed an interesting what ought to happen, but it may not be immediately area, so to speak. With regard to Amendment 107, we possible given the country’s financial straits. are already doing a great deal to support and encourage young people to participate and progress in learning, Baroness Howe of Idlicote: Having listened to the to increase the post-16 learning options available to debate, I think that this is a question of equity, as the them and to support those learning choices. Education noble Baroness, Lady Perry, said. The noble Baroness, maintenance allowances, which provide up to £30 a Lady Sharp, has raised an important point. If young week for learners from lower-income households, are people are required to stay on at school—it may be available for learners aged 16 to 19 in schools, colleges part work and part study but, nevertheless, they are and on certain training courses. That does not discount not going to have much money to see to their basic the noble Baroness’s latter point on the equity question, needs—it is absolutely right and proper that this should which the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, also addressed. be looked at. One recognises that this is not a good Eligibility for EMA is based on household income. economic stage and that it may have to be looked at in Nearly half of 16 to 19 year-olds in full-time further that capacity, but it is to be hoped that, when and if we education currently qualify for this help on the basis recover from the situation we are in, it will be taken of a household income assessment. Currently, families more seriously. have to be in receipt of certain benefits and tax credits in order to be eligible for free school meals for their The Earl of Listowel: While on average most children children. leave home at the age of 24, we face the problem in this country that many parents separate and there are In addition to EMA, discretionary learner support reformulations of families. Certainly, in my experience, funds are made available via the Learning and Skills one can come across 16 year-olds who have been Council to colleges and local authorities. This funding edged out of their homes because a new partner has is provided to enable schools and colleges, using their arrived and they are not so welcome. We have to discretion, to help individual learners facing hardship recognise that many of our young people have to and financial barriers to learning that are not addressed manage on their own, without family support, far through other means. That might take into account earlier than we would want. These are the very young the groups of people that the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, people who would be particularly helped by the noble addressed. Baroness’s amendment. They are learning how to look In addition to the support that may be provided after themselves. In the past they might have had a directly to young learners, other mechanisms exist to family around to ensure that they had a square meal; I help with the costs of supporting young people aged 16 am sure that we would see to it that our teenagers did. to 18 in learning, including universal child benefit. They are finding their feet in the world. Given the Child tax credits may be paid to parents if their child current financial difficulties, it would be laudable to is participating. Recent increases to child benefit will implement this amendment. It is very much the right provide additional support for parents regardless of direction to move in and I hope that the Minister can income, and the increase to the child element of the child give an encouraging response. tax credit, a measure brought forward in the Budget, will provide substantial additional support to families. Baroness Sharp of Guildford: The noble Baroness, Given the generous support that is already made Lady Perry, mentioned the education maintenance available to students who stay in learning—child benefit allowance. That is paid to school students as well as to and tax credits, as I mentioned—and to families if college students so, with regard to equity, it is not a their child is participating in any of a range of learning question of students getting the allowance and paying options, we do not feel that the case has been sufficiently for their meals with it. The amendment would put made to extend the very specific form of support for college students on an equal footing with school students. free school meals for 16 to 18 year-olds to a wider range of premises. Lord Addington: It has been seen that, if you have a I welcome the return of the noble Lord, Lord better carbohydrate intake in the morning, you are Baker, to more constructive contributions, such as his better at learning in the middle of the day. If you stoke point about apprenticeships and work-based learning a bit of fuel into these students, you might get a better environments. We are, however, looking carefully at all result from them. the arrangements for supporting young people, especially in the context of a raised participation age. We are Lord Baker of Dorking: From 16 to 18, of course, taking this forward through the review into financial there will be lots of apprentices who will be earning support for 16 to 18 year-olds that we announced in money. Would they also benefit from this subsidised the New Opportunities White Paper. The review will 423 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 424 take account of findings from research into the barriers, (a) mathematics; financial and otherwise, that young people may face in (b) English; staying on in different learning options. (c) information and communication technology”. Once again, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. That seems very clear. However, the next new section, This is an important issue on the grounds of equity. on the additional entitlement, which is what We also do not want to do anything that deters young Amendment 107A addresses, is far vaguer. The Bill people from remaining in education. I hope that the says that this is a right, noble Baroness will acknowledge that the range of “to follow a course of study in an additional entitlement area”. what we are trying to do for young people extends It then goes on to say that the Secretary of State may beyond free school meals to how we support young specify by regulation what areas will be designated in people. The fact that we have increased the participation this manner, but it does not explain what kind of age raises once again the importance of ensuring that courses of study might be included. A quick glance at we do not deter young people from remaining in the Explanatory Notes shows that it refers to diploma education. As the noble Lord, Lord Addington, reminded lines, which will be specified by the Secretary of State. us, they need food for thought and we need to ensure This, therefore, is simply a probing amendment, designed that they can obtain it at a reasonable cost. I trust that to ask the Minister to clarify whether it is only the my explanations will enable the noble Baroness to diploma that will be specified as an additional entitlement withdraw the amendment. and to expand on it generally. Furthermore, is the Minister not at all concerned 5.45 pm that this may push young people towards a diploma Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I am grateful to the without sufficient care being taken over what course Minister. I believe that breakfast is more effective than of study or training might best suit their needs? I hope lunch. I take on board what he says, but it is still true that she might be able to allay the concerns of City that universal child benefit, child tax credits and so and Guilds, which is worried that the very specific forth are available to those who are in school and the nature of the additional entitlement may push people sixth form in exactly the same way that they might be towards a diploma and away from a vocational course. available to college students. Discretionary hardship I look forward to her response and I beg to move. funds are also available to those in school. At the moment, colleges have to use their discretionary funds Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: I think that I will be occasionally to subsidise food for young people because able to reassure the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, as they know that the young people are not getting fed as he requests. Noble Lords may recall that we debated they should be. The colleges step in to make sure that the introduction of this entitlement during the passage they get a decent meal so that they can learn. I take it of the Education and Inspections Bill in 2006. It was from what the Minister said that, following the raising something that the House took a great interest in, as I of the participation age, a fairly wide-ranging review is understand. Clause 44 merely restates the requirement now taking place about financial barriers and that this in the 2006 Act to secure the core entitlement and, as is, so to speak, being put into the pot of that review. the noble Lord says, the additional entitlement for It seems to me that there is a strong case in equity 16 to 18 year-olds, and it places the duty on local for making sure that young people in a college or authorities instead of the Learning and Skills Council. sixth-form college environment are on exactly the I am happy to confirm that our intention is that the same level as those in school. Therefore, I hope that additional entitlement will relate to diploma lines, as this question would be part of that review. I recognise the noble Lord describes. Our intention is that this that it imposes a cost, but the equity issue means that entitlement will be delivered from the 2013-14 academic the cost has to be faced up to. Alternatively, the year. As for this representing undue pressure on young Government must think about reducing what is available people to pursue diplomas, as opposed to other in the school sector. We look forward to hearing about qualifications such as A-levels, BTEC or apprenticeships, what happens in the review. Perhaps by the time we there are strong duties in the Bill that would guard assemble in the autumn, we shall know a little more against that, such as those about the importance of about it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. delivering education that is appropriate to the individual Amendment 107 withdrawn. learner. I am trying to give the noble Lord the clarity that he was looking for that this reference is about Clause 44: Duties in relation to the core and additional diploma lines and that our intention is that this entitlement, entitlements as he is aware, will be delivered from 2013-14 onwards. I could go on at length about how fantastic diplomas are and how we have a strong take-up by local authorities Amendment 107A already pursuing diplomas, but I see that I may not Moved by Lord De Mauley have to do that now. I hope that, with that reassurance 107A: Clause 44, page 26, line 18, leave out “and the additional and clarification, the noble Lord will withdraw his entitlement are” and insert “is” amendment. Lord De Mauley: Clause 44 specifies that those Lord De Mauley: I thank the Minister for her who are over compulsory school age but under 19 are response. Perhaps, between now and Report, we can entitled to the core and additional entitlements of discuss what some of those additional protections are, education. The core entitlement is clearly laid out in but, for today, I am happy to withdraw the amendment. new Section 17C, which states that this, “is an entitlement to follow a course of study in each of … Amendment 107A withdrawn. 425 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 426

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: I hope that I can Amendment 108 reassure the noble Lord. The picture he paints of the Moved by Lord Elton past is one with which I identify, as I attended a very 108: Clause 44, page 27, leave out line 26 and insert “at a large comprehensive school, probably not dissimilar school other than a school previously attended by that person, or to the one he described, and both my parents taught in an institution” similar schools. In the 1970s it was evident that swathes of young people felt that they needed to leave school Lord Elton: Amendment 108, with which I am because the learning opportunity was particularly going to speak to Amendments 109, 110 and 111, rigid. The noble Lord talked about young people who strikes the Bill in Clause 44 at page 27 and it is may be less able but who should have the opportunity intended to raise an idea in the mind of the to continue their education in the way that is right Government—it is very much a probing amendment. for them. It arises from my still slightly painful memory of We need to be mindful of the fact that this issue being a teacher in a 1,500-boy comprehensive school concerns not only the young person’s ability but their and being responsible, in part, for teaching in the learning styles and experiences and the place where lower-ability streams and encountering the growing they feel confident and relaxed enough to learn. We conviction of pupils throughout that stream, in their know that a lot of young people might opt to learn in last year, that they ought to be out in the world doing a more practical or work-based environment. It does something quite different, and that what they were not necessarily mean that they are less able. For example, doing in school was not very relevant. It was not just they may be incredibly able in an entrepreneurial me; more gifted teachers than me came across this sense. It is a matter of giving them the right opportunity difficulty as well. that suits them. That is why the Government have It intensified when word spread that the school opted for a qualification strategy that puts diplomas leaving age was going to be raised by a year. Fortunately, very much at its heart and, through our debates on I moved to a college of education and taught teachers raising participation—I know the noble Lord was to teach before that happened. However, I was well interested in those debates—making sure that if we aware of the sharp distinction in the minds of many are doing that we accept that for some young people it pupils of average ability—some were above and many is right for them to take a job. While we believe that were below average ability—who considered that school they should have access to training, we also believe was a preliminary to real life. Anything outside the that training should be suitably practical and relevant. school was challenging, exciting and probably grown up, whereas anything inside the school was boring, tiresome and, to many of them, however hard we 6pm tried, not particularly relevant. The point made by the noble Lord about rites of It seems to me that the Bill could capitalise on the passage was very well made. I can identify with it; fact that moving out of one institution into another moving to a new institution—to an FE college or a can give a considerable boost to the engagement of the sixth form at a different school—can often give a pupil concerned. This factor is even more important young person an opportunity to reinvent themselves where one sibling decides not to continue with education as a slightly older person without all the baggage of or training beyond the compulsory age but a younger their younger years or errors, and gain new friendship sibling decides to embark on that course and the elder groups and so on. I appreciate all the points that the then decides to follow. This will seem to the latter a noble Lord is making. We recognise that choice is great diminution of his stature. We are all familiar extremely important and that funding should follow with the idea of rites of passage. Leaving school is one the learner to facilitate that diversity. We recognise the of them. I hope that occasionally it can act as an need for diversity in providers and we have a qualification incentive to making more profitable use of a student’s strategy that takes into account diplomas, GCSEs, time. That is why I have suggested that education be A-levels and, of course, apprenticeships. offered at a school other than the school previously I hope that the noble Lord can feel reassured that, attended by a person, because that is going back to the as we move to a time when we have raised the participation juvenile in his or her view. If it cannot be offered at age, those rites of passage will be possible within a another school, it had better be offered at another sort learning system that allows young people to stay in of institution. learning, to grow and change, and that they are given There are two pairs of amendments which deal access to the opportunity for development that we in with core and additional entitlements, but the message our society need so much and is of such great benefit is the same. I have not explained it very well but those for them. I hope that the noble Lord will consider who have taught will know exactly what I mean. I beg withdrawing his amendment on the basis of what I to move. can only describe as a plea. Baroness Verma: My noble friend Lord Elton raises some interesting questions about what happens when The Earl of Listowel: I thank the Minister for a very a learner finds a school or institution unsuitable and interesting reply. Is there any evidence available on wishes to change schools while continuing with their what young people say about this matter? Do young studies. He has eloquently illustrated that such a change people say, “Actually, what I am studying at the moment could be very beneficial for a learner. I hope the is gripping me and I am engaged with it, and I am not Government will seek to ensure that some choice is so keen immediately to move into the workplace or available. elsewhere”? What are teachers saying? Having worked 427 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 428 in this field, are they saying, “Yes, we see this change In the Learning and Skills Act 2000 there was a going on”. A concern might be that the focus on requirement for the LSC to secure boarding education if, testing and teaching to the test might be frustrating “it cannot secure the provision of facilities for education or teachers as regards allowing young people to be creative training which are sufficient in quantity and adequate in quality”. and engaging them in the way that the Minister We understand that there is no intention to dilute this described—and producing courses which produce clause. Clause 45 is a transfer over from the Learning enthusiastic learners, not impatient and frustrated young and Skills Act. The current wording is: people who wish to move out of that institution. “Alocal education authority in England may secure the provision of boarding accommodation in connection with the provision of Baroness Howe of Idlicote: That was a very interesting education or training for a person in their area who is … over and reassuring exchange between the noble Lord, compulsory school age but under 25, and … subject to learning Lord Elton, and the noble Baroness. The only thing difficulty assessment”. that worried me was her comment that she “hoped”, We would like to see the “may” put into a “must”, but because I should have thought that the way that the with the proviso that there should also be a new Bill is written and the fact that the funding follows the paragraph (c), for those who cannot secure the provision individual and so on indicates that that choice will be of facilities for, available. I would be very grateful if the noble Baroness “education or training which are sufficient in quantity and adequate was more positive. in quality without the provision of boarding accommodation”. Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: Iamveryhappytobe Only a small number of learners—currently about more positive. Perhaps I may focus on the introduction 3,600—need access to residential provision to ensure of diplomas, which is an essential development for that their further education and training needs are engaging exactly the kind of young person who could met. These learners have severe and complex learning have been switched off in the past. These are diplomas difficulties and/or disabilities and require a specialist, which create the opportunity to learn in a real-life fully integrated, multidisciplinary environment in which context, making learning much more relevant, while to receive a personalised and appropriately supported ensuring that young people have some of the things learning programme. The use of the word “may” risks that we want them to learn, like functional skills, the possibility of these learners either attending local strong literacy and numeracy. The early diplomas such colleges where their needs cannot be adequately met, as those in construction and the built environment, staying on at school until the age of 25 or being denied creative and media, engineering, information technology access to any further education. We draw attention to and society, health and development are being well- the fact that the term “boarding accommodation” received by young people. We are getting positive does not fully reflect the wide range of extended feedback and teachers are enjoying making use of this learning opportunities that are available to learners in new teaching opportunity. a residential setting. In preparing for this debate, I wanted to be able to This same amendment was discussed in the other share with noble Lords some of the detailed feedback place. The Minister stated that it is important to read from young people around these qualifications. I would Clause 45 in conjunction with Clause 40, which inserts be happy to do that but unfortunately cannot find it in proposed new Section 15ZA into the Education Act 1996. my pack. I apologise. Subsection 15ZA(1)(b) places local authorities under a firm duty to, Lord Elton: I am grateful to the noble Baroness and “secure that enough suitable education and training is provided to those who contributed to this short debate airing a meet the reasonable needs of persons … aged 19 or over but hobby horse of mine. I hope it will provide some food under 25 and … subject to learning difficulty assessment”. for thought for others. I beg leave to withdraw the That is in effect where the “must” in the predecessor amendment. Act comes in. Clause 45 clarifies that the local authority may deliver that overriding duty through boarding Amendment 108 withdrawn. education. Amendments 109 to 111 not moved. The Association of National Specialist Colleges, which has asked us to bring this matter forward, is Clause 44 agreed. unhappy because it still believes that the word “may” in the clause is unsatisfactory, because local authorities Clause 45 : Provision of boarding accommodation: will not be legally obliged to arrange boarding education. persons subject to learning difficulty assessment A perhaps unintended consequence is that residential education and training provision for vulnerable learners will not be secured. Amendment 112 I believe that there has been considerable discussion Moved by Baroness Sharp of Guildford between Ministers and the Association of National 112: Clause 45, page 28, line 9, leave out “may” and insert Specialist Colleges in the past few weeks and that the “must” matter has moved forward somewhat. I know that the association is anxious that the elaboration that Ministers Baroness Sharp of Guildford: This amendment brings have given to the explanation given by the Minister, to the Committee’s attention the issue of boarding Jim Knight, in the other place, should be put on education for those with complex learning difficulties record in Hansard. I would be very grateful if the of one sort or another. Minister could give a full answer to the queries about 429 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 430

[BARONESS SHARP OF GUILDFORD] what assessment is expected to be done by local the “mays” and “musts” and how that it does not education authorities as to whether specific boarding matter having “may” in Clause 45, because of the accommodation would be suitable for a young person point made by the Minister that the “must” from with a particular learning difficulty? Obviously, some Clause 40 carries over and that there will be no diminution types of accommodation are more suited to some of the duty on local authorities. I beg to move. people than to others. Can he give the Committee any form of reassurance as to how different LEAs are Lord Baker of Dorking: I certainly welcome the expected to collaborate, so as to provide such clause. First, I declare an interest. I am the president accommodation to those who need it? of a charity that provides boarding accommodation for blind and visually impaired children, nursery provision 6.15 pm and schools up to the age of 16. We also have an Baroness Howe of Idlicote: Briefly, I support this extensive FE college for those aged from 16 to 19. amendment—it clearly is important. Also, the remarks That is a very expensive service. We have to provide of the noble Lord, Lord Baker, were equally important; not only in capital expenditure for a variety of needs—in that it makes sense, in the relatively few cases of these our case, not only the blind and visually impaired but needy students, to make proper use of those establishments those with emotional learning difficulties and physical which exist already. I also think that the proviso to learning difficulties—but that requires supervision at really make quite certain that this is necessary is night and even at weekends, if the youngsters cannot important, not least in these times. go to similar secure accommodation. I would hope that in any discussion with specialist Lord Young of Norwood Green: Together, colleges, the Government will recognise that the most Amendments 112 and 113 place a duty on local authorities effective way for a local authority to meet its obligations to secure boarding provision for learners with a learning under the clause will be to use the specialist colleges. difficulty assessment, where sufficient and adequate Local authorities will be very reluctant to build such facilities cannot be secured unless boarding education boarding accommodation for 16 to 25 year-olds if is also secured. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady they have to find the money themselves. They also Sharp, for again introducing an interesting issue. have responsibility for people who are disadvantaged in the adult age range, and they may have their own I am grateful for the opportunity to place on record priorities to deal with that. That is another expensive our appreciation for the valuable role played by programme. We may need some amendment to the independent specialist colleges in providing education wording of the clause so that local authorities would for learners, often with very specific needs and first call on the specialist colleges, most of which are requirements. Some learners relish the independence charities and most of which are in the private sector. and confidence provided by living away from home. They give remarkably good value. This can be an important step to independent living. It is essential that this type of provision continues to be Several FE colleges have boarding accommodation. available where it is needed, and that both national For example, nearly all the agricultural colleges around and local commissioning processes are centred on the the country have boarding accommodation. That is needs of learners. because, first, the journey for youngsters may be 30 or 40 miles, which is a long journey. Secondly, if they are Local authorities will need to work in partnership looking after animals, they have to get up at dawn, so with specialist providers to ensure that they are involved they must have boarding accommodation. That should in planning and commissioning discussions. There are be recognised. That is not quite pertinent to the clause, particular benefits to be gained from this, as these but it will be an issue increasingly in future. I imagine colleges often have particular skills that it would be that that will come under the new Skills Funding beneficial to share with other colleges and learning Agency, not local authorities, but I am sure that one providers. This outward-facing approach is one that consequence of the Bill going through will be a demand both we and the Local Government Association are for more boarding accommodation, especially in rural keen to promote. We will ensure that the benefits of areas, not just for children with disability or learning these types of arrangement are reflected in the national difficulties but for the diploma in environmental services. commissioning framework. The Minister just said that she is very committed to We are working with specialist colleges nationally, diplomas. The diploma in environmental services, which through the Association of National Specialist Colleges, covers agriculture, horticulture, viticulture, and so on, to develop arrangements that recognise that independent will almost certainly require boarding accommodation specialist colleges will often work across local authority for most of the students that colleges hope to get. I boundaries and nationally. I absolutely endorse the hope that we may receive a positive answer from the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, about the Minister on both of those points. expensive nature of these provisions. One could certainly not expect every local authority to provide them within Lord De Mauley: I agree with the noble Baroness, their own boundaries—which is why we have to ensure Lady Sharp, that, in many cases, boarding accommodation the ability of young people to go across local authority can be extremely beneficial to young people, especially boundaries and, in some cases, nationally as well, those with learning difficulties. My noble friend because that is where the facility exists. Lord Baker asked some very important questions, On the question of the specialist FE colleges, for and we look forward to the Minister’s responses to example, some might do boarding; in others, students those. In addition, will the Minister tell the Committee might stay out in local hostels or hotels. I think there 431 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 432 are a variety of arrangements. I have met a number of In section 321 of the Education Act 1996 (c. 56), before apprentices who have been involved in this: it certainly subsection (1) insert— does not just apply to people with learning disabilities. “(A1) For the purpose of establishing whether a child falls, or It is likely that the Young People’s Learning Agency probably falls, within subsection (2), a local authority shall provide will act in a brokerage role for an interim period to that each child in a maintained or voluntary aided school shall— allow local authorities to build up their expertise in (a) on completion of key stage one and by their seventh this area. birthday; and (b) at the beginning of key stage three and by their twelfth I understand that some colleges have concerns about birthday, the specific working of Clause 45, and here is where I be screened for risk of dyslexia and other specific learning want to place on record the point that the noble difficulties. Baroness, Lady Sharp, raised. I would like to reassure (A2) The screening referred to in subsection (A1) shall be the colleges and the noble Baroness on this point: carried out by a prescribed person with prescribed qualifications. Clause 45 needs to be read in conjunction with Clause 40. (A3) The specific learning difficulties referred to in subsection Clause 40 places local authorities under a firm duty to (A1) are— secure enough suitable education and training to meet (a) dyslexia; the reasonable needs of all young people aged 16 to (b) dyscalculia; 19, and those aged 19 to 25 who are subject to learning (c) dyspraxia; difficulty assessment. In deciding whether the education (d) speech and language disorder; or training is suitable to meet a person’s reasonable needs, the local authority must—note the word “must”— (e) autism spectrum and Asperger’s syndrome; have regard to a number of considerations, including (f) attention deficit disorder; any learning difficulties that persons in their area may (g) attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder; and have. Therefore, the overriding duty and the “must” is (h) a high level of co-morbidity of any two or more of these in Clause 40. conditions.”” Clause 45 clarifies that, where appropriate, local Lord Elton: This amendment seeks to amend authorities may deliver this overriding duty through Section 321(2) of the Education Act 1996, which puts the provision of boarding accommodation. This approach a general duty on local education authorities to, is exactly parallel with the requirements in pre-16 “exercise their powers with a view to securing that, of the children education and boarding provision, where the local for whom they are responsible, they identify those to whom authority has a clear duty to provide education and subsection (2) below applies … This subsection applies to a child the legislation makes it clear that the local authority if … he has special educational needs, and … it is necessary for may fulfil this duty by providing boarding provision the authority to determine the special educational provision where suitable education cannot be provided without it. which any learning difficulty he may have calls for”. I trust that, with those assurances on the record, the That is the trigger for the process of assessment and noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw the amendment. statements. The Government’s reaction to the Rose report was Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I thank the Minister very welcome, and I understand—the noble Baroness, for his response, which, as he rightly says, puts on the Lady Morgan of Drefelin, will tell me whether I am record what is required. I thank noble Lords who have wrong—that 4,000 teachers will be trained and put participated in this debate. into place who will be able to identify the children who are at risk of dyslexia and related disorders. The Lord Baker of Dorking: In view of what the Minister amendment proposes the method by which they shall has said—he makes great play about Clause 40 interacting be engaged in the process. I realise that there are with this clause—perhaps it will be possible to table an questions of timing—the 4,000 have to be trained and amendment to this clause on Report to require the local so on—and I suggest to the noble Baroness that, authority to bear in mind the provision that is provided rather than declaring it premature or something like locally by specialist colleges when they fulfil this duty. that, we should have this or something like it in the Bill. It should be one of those clauses that is brought Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I thank the noble into effect by statutory instrument; we will come to the Lord for that contribution. I assume that what the part of the Bill that gives the Minister the power to Minister has said will satisfy the Association of National bring into effect parts of the Act that come into effect Specialist Colleges, but I will need to consult it and later than the Act as a whole. consider in the light of this debate whether it might be I am not sure that it is necessary to say much more worth bringing this matter back on Report. In the than that. We have already debated the sorts of difficulties mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. that are involved, and if we go on with this I would Amendment 112 withdrawn. like on Report to get verbal communication into the standard list that follows dyslexia, because we all agree Amendment 113 not moved. how important that is. I am anxious at this stage to ascertain the Minister’s general reaction to the proposal Clause 45 agreed. that we should provide a means by which these teachers, when they are trained, shall be deployed. I beg to Amendment 113A move. Moved by Lord Elton Baroness Verma: My noble friend Lord Elton has 113A: After Clause 45, insert the following new Clause— once again brought forward a particularly sharp and “Provision of screening for specific learning difficulties important amendment. This time he is not tightening 433 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 434

[BARONESS VERMA] assets in this field. At the moment, we are in danger of the drafted legislation but is attempting to tighten a merely having slightly fewer holes in the system into crucial part of the policy within it. I am sure that most which you can fall, as opposed to trying to make sure noble Lords around this Chamber will have deep that there are no holes, or at least very few. sympathy with the amendment proposed here. I hope, therefore, to hear a positive response from the Minister 6.30 pm when she stands up to reply. Lord Lucas: When we see the noble Lord, Lord Addington, wearing pink glasses, smelling of fish and Lord Addington: This is effectively the second act of bouncing on a rubber ball while tickling his palm with the discussion we had earlier. I am trying to think of a paintbrush, we will know what is going on. any reason why the Government should not do this, Lord Addington: I am not sure that I do. other than the fact that they think it is difficult. We have already heard that certain people do not think Lord Lucas: They are all cures for dyslexia which I there is the absolute killer test that will identify everything have seen tried. The noble Lord and this amendment and I have had various discussions in the presence of make a crucial point. There needs to be early diagnosis the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, about the problems and, as the noble Lord said earlier, it should not be associated with this. However, there are plenty of tests when there appears to be a problem. Many of these and screening initiatives which can give a good problems emerge only when the child’s inner resources identification for virtually all of these spectrum disorders. have been exhausted. I have seen bright dyslexics As the noble Lord has quite rightly put down, if you diagnosed in their second year at Cambridge. If you have two goes, you are much more likely to catch all of are bright enough you can carry this for a long time them. I have not heard anybody disagreeing with the before you know what is going on. It is important to fact that you are unlikely to get a system that is 100 per pick up these kids, whatever their level of innate cent accurate in identifying these special needs. intelligence, in order to separate out the reasons for No one would dispute the fact that, even if you get the difficulties that they are having and to give them in early with coping and support strategies, you do not the right support as a result. This is much better done cure any of these conditions, but people can learn to by way of a universal diagnosis, which is not expensive live with them and deal with them properly. We need because diagnostic testing of those kids should be to make sure there is the right help and support for done at that stage anyway. If we get around to doing pupils with different patterns. If you are dyslexic, as I it, it will save a great deal of money and a great deal of know to my cost, you are dyslexic for life. Someone heartache in the long term. comes up with a miracle cure for dyslexia, for instance, Baroness Howe of Idlicote: This amendment goes approximately every 18 months—sometimes more back to our earlier discussion. It is crucial that it is frequently, sometimes less. And every three years there considered and taken on board. Had the noble Lord, is someone who knows that it does not exist. This is Lord Ramsbotham, been here, he would have reiterated roughly the pattern I have noted. As these miracle the point that he, I and others have made; namely, that cures come and go, and the person waving a theory the earliest possible testing, at the age of 2, 1 or disappears off into the night saying that the rest of the whatever, is important. I have certainly read the Rose world is mad and he is sane, those of us who suffer report and was delighted that it was accepted by the from these conditions know that, if you identify patterns Government. My only reservation was the reasoning and put structures in place early enough, many of the that testing early would not help very much. Testing downsides are removed—predominantly, the failure to early may not be the only test that one needs to do, but jump through the hoops of the academic system to get it could be, should be and almost certainly would be into the right positions within it to access better training an early indication of problems and the need for in later life. support in the future. The effect of not addressing these conditions can We have all grown more aware of this spectrum, lead to a downward spiral of bad behavioural records, which used to be called autism and embraced everything. certainly for dyslexics but also for dyspraxics and As people have realised the complexity of the whole dyscalculics. If we can address them, we will get rid of issue, it has expanded into goodness only knows how that. Also, if you train people better—for instance, many subsets. I very much doubt whether there is dyslexics to use a voice recognition system on their anyone in this Chamber who does not have knowledge computer—and get in earlier, they will be able to get of a relative, a friend or whoever. I declare an interest into learning technology more quickly. Everything in that I have a niece who is dyslexic. What is more, I about these types of conditions will be made easier if think that her father, James Stirling, who is dead now you get identification and learning strategies in earlier. but was one of our best architects, was also dyslexic. I would suggest that we really must travel towards this. We live with these difficulties. We could do much I thank the Government for their 4,000 newly trained more to ensure that the individuals concerned are teachers in about 25,000 schools. It would be a reasonable enabled to develop to the best of their potential and be assumption that these 4,000 teachers have acquired a a full part of the community, all of which benefits the degree of knowledge. But it is still the case that only whole community and all of us. I warmly support this one in two schools has one specifically trained teacher. amendment. So unless it is written in the Bill that they have to buy in the expertise that is in the system for this function, Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: I thank the noble we will be underachieving. I hope that the Government Lord for his amendment. I will take careful note of the will see this approach as a way of cashing in on their strong commitment around the House to the early 435 Apprenticeships Bill[2 JULY 2009] Apprenticeships Bill 436 detection of learning difficulties such as dyslexia. In statutory duty is already in place on schools to use this House we have a great deal of expertise on the their best endeavours to ensure that necessary provision subject and a great deal of commitment, passion and is made for pupils with special educational needs. The concern about children and young people who are professional standards for teachers require trainee teachers affected in this way. I cannot stress enough how much to demonstrate that they can make effective personalised note I take of what has been said now and in the provision for those whom they teach, including those earlier debate. with special educational needs, and that they know Noble Lords have referred to Sir Jim Rose’s review, how to differentiate their teaching accordingly. The which was recently concluded and published. The Training and Development Agency for Schools is Government have accepted his recommendations. His encouraging training providers to use new specialist report offered the clear advice to government that study units that include material on learning and there are better ways to identify children at risk of teaching for pupils with, for example, autism or dyslexia, literacy difficulties and dyslexia. He advised us that or who require support with speech, language and the best way is to closely observe and assess their communication needs. This is important new work responses to pre-reading and early-reading activities that is being developed. in comparison with their typically developing peers in We know that most providers are using these materials the reception year of primary school and beyond. on their primary undergraduate teacher training courses. As noble Lords are aware, the review found that the That is new; it is something that we have talked of in first step advocated in identifying that children may the past as being very necessary. We launched the units have language learning difficulties, including dyslexia, for secondary undergraduate courses on 23 June. SEN is to notice those making poor progress in comparison units for the PGCE will be available before the end of with their typically developing peers, despite receiving— the year. We have also developed the inclusion this is an important point that noble Lords have made development programme for the school workforce. in the past—high-quality, wave 1 literacy activity. In Since we debated this issue last year, we have issued other words, children who are failing to thrive despite materials to increase confidence and knowledge in significant expert literacy intervention. relation to children with autism. I know that noble Lords are very concerned about that, too. Baroness Morris of Bolton: I am grateful to the My noble friend has already referred at length to Minister for giving way. It is not always children who Sir Jim Rose’s report, as I have just done, but the noble are making poor progress. For instance, my son had Lord, Lord Addington, touched on the 4,000 teachers just won a scholarship when we were asked if we in specialist dyslexia teacher training. I would say that would have him tested. They thought that there was that is an important and significant contribution. It something the matter with his eyes. He was dyslexic, has been welcomed by the stakeholders as an important and he was 14 before we realised that whenever he step forward. I recognise noble Lords’ concerns about read, the text moved around on the paper. I asked him the need to do more for children and young people why he was not reading and he said, “Because it makes with special educational needs but, equally, I am sure all those awful patterns”. I asked why he had not said that they will recognise the challenges in establishing anything before and he said, “Because I thought that reliable screening tools for all learning difficulties listed happened when everybody read”. It was important in the amendment. that he was diagnosed, because he was not doing as We are taking this seriously and trying to ensure well as he was capable of doing. It is not always that the teaching workforce has the skills. We are children who are doing poorly: that is why you need a committed to supporting, in particular, children and general diagnostic test for everybody. young people with dyslexia. I accept the point about early intervention. We look forward to the significant Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: I will not argue with Ofsted review that is being undertaken, in which I the noble Baroness about the importance of early know this House will show a great deal of interest. I diagnosis—perhaps “identification” is a better term. It hope that, with this ongoing interest and concern, the is absolutely essential. The noble Lords, Lord Addington noble Lord will consider withdrawing his amendment. and Lord Elton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, have stressed this on many occasions. We all agree Lord Addington: I am sorry to delay the Committee, that early identification is essential. I do not want it but does the Minister accept that the answer probably to be thought that there is an assumption that it is lies not in either good screening or good observation only children who are less able who have dyslexia but in a combination of the two to back each other or other learning difficulties. Very bright children up? Do not get me wrong: this situation is a case of, struggle with these difficulties. I fully recognise that. “You wouldn’t want to start from here”. Everybody The example given by the noble Baroness is a very has been trying to find solutions and we have found, as important one. we have gone into it, that awareness of the problem I share the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Elton, has expanded. I appreciate that the Government have that we should continue improving the school workforce’s gone on to new ground, but they are the Government skills in identifying and teaching children with special and they are supposed to do that. Does the Minister educational needs. Noble Lords will be aware from not agree that there is some case for some form of our previous discussions and correspondence over the screening—if not in all of these conditions, then in years that we are looking to address these concerns in some of them—which, enhanced by greater teacher ways that are different from those proposed in the awareness, stands a much better chance of not missing amendment. We have had a very good debate today. A people? 437 Apprenticeships Bill[LORDS] Apprenticeships Bill 438

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: We have sought advice question for as long as it is necessary. The Government from Sir Jim Rose and we have had clear guidance have to put their shoulder to the wheel on this and get from him. However, I will not argue with the noble a reliable test in position. In the end, it will save Lord at all about this. I accept that early identification money. of learning difficulties is essential. Screening, by definition, I do not suppose that the 4,000 new teachers due to is about looking at a whole population using a particular come along will all arrive in one year, although it identification tool. To go into the debate about screening, would be a good thing if they did. How long will they the advice that we have had is that the most effective take to get into place? Is it intended to stop the process way of early identification is not through a school of training them when they have arrived? In that case, population-basis screening. We have sought expert along with the noble Lord, Lord Addington, I feel advice and this issue, I accept, is not going to go away. that that will be inadequate. It is a good start, but We are always interested in research, the next expert more than 4,000 will be needed in order to provide a review and the next Ofsted review and we are always significant presence in all our schools. My own view, committed to listening and learning as we go forward. as I expressed before, is that you do not have to have a We have to live up to the commitments that we have diagnostic specialist in every school, but you need made to the Rose report, so we need to get on with someone who can select those pupils who are most that, too. I accept all that. likely to need a diagnosis. A sufficient level of skill is required in every school to ensure that a child who Lord Elton: I am grateful to all noble Lords who is at risk of one of these conditions is referred to a have taken part. I have not quite finished with this. more expensive expert who will be able to make the The Rose report said, as the noble Baroness implied, identification. that, I hope that eventually we shall have a training “blanket screening for dyslexia of all children on entry to school module on every teacher training course to cover the is questionable, not least because screening tests for this purpose rudiments of identification, but for the vast number of are as yet unreliable”. teachers already in service I hope that we shall have a Can she confirm that the reason why he said that is corresponding inset course so that they, too, can become that there is no agreement within what I would call the qualified. I shall consider with great care what has dyslexia community as to which of a series of tests is been said and I can promise to come back on Report the best and most reliable? Could she give an undertaking with a modified version of the amendment, if only that the Government will fund urgent research in to get my ally the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, on order to develop a test that is reliable? I believe that to the stage to deliver his expertise. I repeat my thanks they exist because they are used in certain places. to others who have contributed to the debate and I beg Indeed, I am sorry that my ally, the noble Lord, Lord leave to withdraw the amendment. Ramsbotham, is not here because he knows a great deal about where it is being done in a youth detention Amendment 113A withdrawn. centre in Northern Ireland. It is not proving to be too expensive, as we were told on the last Bill, and I hope Clause 46 agreed. that the noble Baroness has noticed that I have reduced my interventions from three to two in anticipation of House resumed. her claim that it would be very expensive, which is what she said the last time around. I shall pursue this House adjourned at 6.48 pm. GC 95 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 96

in delivering the welfare system. That includes everyone Grand Committee from Jobcentre Plus office workers to employees of the organisations who have contracted to run the Thursday, 2 July 2009. scheme and members of the subcontractor’s staff. The threat of violence against anyone who is helping to administer welfare schemes is entirely unacceptable. Welfare Reform Bill I trust that the Minister would agree with that. Committee (8th Day) I therefore believe that sanctions are necessary. However, they should not be—and must not be seen to 2pm be—arbitrary. A warning letter which set out details The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness of why sanctions are being applied would be a useful McIntosh of Hudnall): I remind the Committee that if way of explaining to a claimant why his own conduct there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, is responsible for his predicament. Perhaps it will be a the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division salutary warning. Bell is heard and will resume 10 minutes thereafter. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, that sanctions should not be imposed on claimants before they have had adequate warning that it is about to Clause 26 : Attendance in connection with jobseeker’s happen. Perhaps the best way is in the form of a letter. allowance: sanctions Other methods, such as telephone or e-mail, might also be helpful. Indeed, for people with a mental illness, we have already had the promise that sanctions Amendment 158 will not be upheld without a face-to-face interview. Moved by Baroness Thomas of Winchester I had been planning, however, to read out an example 158: Clause 26, page 35, line 11, at end insert— of how not to do it in a letter—a letter from the DWP “but only after a clear warning letter and explanation of the to the daughter of a deceased pensioner which was so initial instance of failure to comply has been issued to the threatening in its tone that it ended up in Parliament, claimant” in my hands. I was so horrified by it that I sent it to the Minister, who I believe forwarded it to the Pension Baroness Thomas of Winchester: In moving the Agency. Alas, I made the crucial error of sending the amendment, I am well aware that the Minister has said original to the Minister without keeping a copy for in terms that the first sanction for jobseeker’s allowance myself, so I am unable to discomfit your Lordships by will be a warning letter. However, I have not withdrawn reading it out. Suffice it to say that it did not arouse the amendment because it should be in the Bill. feelings of sympathy for the department, which was trying to reclaim the amount of state pension that had In the chapter of his report entitled “The Role mistakenly been paid out after the pensioner’s death. of Sanctions”, Professor Gregg recommended the introduction of a system of staged sanctions for claimants Incidentally, I have yet to hear a response to it, who had received a written warning for the first instance which surprises me as I sent it to the Minister well over of non-compliance of attending a mandatory interview a month ago. I hope that when I finally get a response or appointment. This would spell out exactly why the from the Pension Agency I will be able to forward it to claimant had been sanctioned and what the financial the Minister, because I am trying to get a response to consequences would be for further non-compliance. the tone of the letter from him rather than the agency Under the Bill, financial sanctions could be applied which sent the letter in the first place. immediately, without a clear written warning, after the first non-compliance. The Countess of Mar: I, too, support the noble The amendment was suggested by Citizens Advice, Baroness, Lady Thomas, in her amendment. We must which regularly sees clients whose benefits have been be not only fair but seen to be fair. Sometimes the sanctioned but who do not understand why—which of message might not get home in a telephone conversation. course makes the sanction less effective in changing People are not always able to visualise what might future behaviour. As I said earlier, the Minister said happen, but if they have something in writing at least that a written warning is sent, presumably when an they can take it to someone else to explain it. I endorse interview or other appointment is missed, and that what the noble Baroness says. this warning letter constitutes the first sanction. If this is the case, why is it not enshrined in legislation to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, protect the vulnerable from being financially penalised Department for Communities and Local Government & for the first offence, which they may not have correctly Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of understood? I beg to move. Luton): I thank the noble Baroness for this amendment. It gives me the opportunity, I hope, to clarify the Lord Skelmersdale: My view is and has always been matter, because I think that she quoted me as saying that we are dealing with sanctions for violent conduct—in that within the JSA regime, the starting point for other words, punishment for behaviour that I expect sanction would be a letter. I shall deal with that point all noble Lords would deplore and agree is deserving directly. However, I think that the noble Lord, Lord of sanctions. I hope we can get an assurance from the Skelmersdale, was reverting to the generality of the Minister that new Section 20C on page 28 of the Bill clause about the impact of these sanctions for violence. will offer protection from violence to all those involved Yes, it is meant to apply not only to Jobcentre Plus GC 97 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 98

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] interview, work-related activity or work-focused health- staff but to contractors who work on our behalf. As related assessment requirement for the first time, we for the letter that the noble Lord sent me, operational do not plan to apply a financial sanction, unlike now. letters are automatically passed on to the agencies. In line with Professor Gregg’s recommendations, we However, I shall recover his letter and ensure that he will issue a formal and final written warning. This gets a detailed response directly from me. should significantly reduce the number of people who The clause introduces a new benefit sanction for receive a financial sanction in the pathfinder areas. those customers who fail to attend their mandatory Obviously we will evaluate those pathfinders in due appointments within the jobseeker’s allowance regime. course and see whether a wider rollout of that approach Such appointments include, for example, the fortnightly would be appropriate. job search review where customers demonstrate that I assure the Committee that the sanctioning regime they are available for and have been actively seeking in JSA incorporates safeguards. If customers show work. This is applied only to those groups who are on good cause—and we have debated that extensively—for JSA because they are deemed to be actively seeking failing to attend the appointment, a sanction will not and available for work. be applied. Further, if customers are sanctioned, they will have the opportunity to claim a hardship payment, The amendment proposes that JSA customers are which we have talked about, if they or a partner is in a given a warning letter and an explanation of the act of vulnerable group; for example if they have a medical non-compliance prior to the issue of the sanction. I condition or are responsible for a child. Customers shall explain why this step is not appropriate for this will also be able to appeal the imposition of the client group. Mandatory appointments with Jobcentre sanction. I hope that that has clarified our position for Plus are a core element of the JSA regime. The the noble Baroness and that she feels able to withdraw appointments act as a gateway to the support on offer the amendment. to help customers back to work, and they act as a crucial checkpoint in ensuring that customers are actively seeking and are available for work. The requirement to Lord Skelmersdale: The Minister pointed out that attend appointments and the consequences for failure sanctions already exist in the field of actively seeking to attend are clearly communicated to customers at work under the Jobseekers Act 1995. One can readily the start of a claim and repeated at regular intervals understand that the regime will be slightly different throughout the course of the claim. when applied to the Clause 2 group, the progression- to-work group. It would be extremely helpful if I and As customers are fully informed of this key perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, could see commitment, if they still fail to attend, they could be the pro forma letters which currently exist for the first trying to avoid their responsibility actively to seek group and what is likely to be available or used for the work. There therefore needs to be a clear link between second group, so that we can make a judgment on this. the customer’s responsibilities under the JSA regime and the consequences of failing to comply. We believe Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am sure we can make that sending customers a warning letter before a sanction available the type of notifications that exist under the would only weaken this link between the responsibility current sanctions regime. So far as how we are going to attend appointments and the right to receive benefit. to deal with the pathfinders and a progressive, Gregg-type A different approach to sanctions for other client regime, we want to discuss this with stakeholders. I am groups, notably the progression-to-work group, will very happy for noble Lords to be involved in that apply. That is the point focused on by the noble process. We have not concluded that yet and will need Baroness. These groups and the progression-to-work to do more work before we finalise our thoughts. group will, for the purposes of the pathfinders, consist of lone parents with young children claiming employment Lord Skelmersdale: I am very grateful. and support allowance who are not required to be actively seeking and available for work. It would therefore Baroness Thomas of Winchester: I am grateful for not be appropriate to apply this sanctions regime to the support for the amendment around the Grand those claimants. Committee. I am a bit confused, however. When Professor We plan to test the effectiveness of a more progressive Gregg talked about the sanctions regime on page 74 of regime based on the principles recommended by Professor his report, under the heading “Dealing more effectively Gregg in the pathfinders. He suggested that the sanctions with repeat offenders”, he wrote: regime needs to be clearly understood. The noble “First offence: this would lead to a formal warning”. Baroness made that point as well. We will use different Is he referring to ESA? I thought that he was talking ways to encourage re-engagement and will always about JSA as well, but I may have got it wrong. offer speedy and simple routes to customers to end any sanctions imposed. We plan to follow that approach. Lord McKenzie of Luton: I do not have the document Our model for the pathfinders is not yet fixed as we in front of me, but I believe that that is focused on the wish to discuss our plans in more detail with the progression-to-work group currently on income support stakeholders. However, our current plans particularly and ESA. They may end up on JSA in due course. focus on the small number of people who repeatedly fail to meet the requirements that apply to them. We Baroness Thomas of Winchester: There is a case for do this by progressively increasing the impact the saying that the first sanction across all regimes should greater the number of consecutive failures there are. be a warning letter. That would be a good idea so that Therefore, if a person fails to meet a work-focused everyone knows exactly where they stand. There is GC 99 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 100 obviously something going wrong at the moment because to the 2007 Communities and Local Government Select CABs are finding that people just do not understand Committee, so it is good to know that there are people what is going on. It is probably a relatively small in all areas who are in agreement with the notion that group, but they are having their benefit docked and changing the name to rebate would have the effect that they do not really know why. I think the suggestion by the legion believes that it will. It has also got support the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, was a good one. from a number of organisations, including, as I said, We would welcome an opportunity to see this letter so the Select Committee. It also believes that it has support that we can decide whether we approve of the language across the political spectrum. It says that it has support used and can see exactly what it says. I think that from the leaders of the Conservatives and of the Lib Members of the Committee in general would be interested Dems, both of whom have written to the legion to say to see it. I am glad that the Minister has clarified the that they support the rebate. matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. In view of all this and the fact that there is a substantial amount of support right across the board Amendment 158 withdrawn. for what is now proposed, I hope the Government will take heed of the results of the campaign and be Clause 26 agreed. prepared to accept the amendment—which would, I am sure, have the effect of ensuring that claims are Clause 27 agreed. made by a number of people who at the moment apparently are too proud to claim benefit. That is very Clause 28 : Persons under pensionable age to take part true of many veterans, but of course it is true of many in work-focused interviews etc. pensioners as well. They do not like to be “shamed”, as they see it, into claiming for benefits. That may Amendments 159 to 161 not moved. strike some of us as rather odd, but it is how they feel about it. I think that we should respond to that. If we Clause 28 agreed. change the name to rebate, there will not be the feeling of shame in making an application and more people will apply for what is their entitlement. I beg to move. Amendment 161A Lord Skelmersdale: I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Moved by Baroness Turner of Camden Lady Turner, and I support her in this endeavour—rare 161A: After Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— though that might seem to some of your Lordships. “Income-related benefits To be strictly accurate, my right honourable friend the In section 123(1)(e) of the Social Security Contributions and Leader of the Opposition has done rather more than Benefits Act 1992 (c. 4) (income-related benefits), for “council tax support this amendment; what he did was to write to benefit” substitute “council tax rebate”.” the director-general of the British Legion with the explicit promise that should the current Government 2.15 pm fail to implement this change, a future Government will. Baroness Turner of Camden: I am indebted to the The important facts here are that less than 60 per Royal British Legion for the text of this amendment cent of those who are eligible for council tax benefit and for the accompanying briefing. I am informed actually make a claim, as the noble Baroness said. One that the legion has been engaged in a campaign designed reason for that is the stigma associated with being in to alleviate pension poverty among older veterans. receipt of benefit. The Minister will remember that in That followed research it commissioned, which showed a recent Bill that emanated from the DWP, we talked that 38 per cent of older veterans, their spouses and an awful lot about stigma, in that case relating to widowers report an income level below that required disabled people—in particular with cancer, but other for healthy living. elements as well. We can all agree that in certain parts of this country a stigma is associated with being in Despite these low income levels, it is estimated that receipt of benefits. Although some may tut-tut that only 55 to 61 per cent of all pensioners who qualify for that is so, the Government know as well as anyone that council tax benefit actually make a claim. The Department it is a real consideration for people, not least because a for Work and Pensions has estimated that up to £1.5 billion report by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister of CTB is left unclaimed by pensioners each year. For Select Committee in 2004 said that the stigma attached this reason, the legion has embarked on a campaign to to council tax benefit being presented as a benefit rename council tax benefit and to call it a rebate. It rather than as, more accurately, a relief from tax believes that this is a simple, cost-effective and practical contributed accounted for the dismal rate of take-up way of helping pensioners, many of them in the ex-service for council tax benefit. All the evidence is there. The community. It believes that this will increase take up aim behind the amendment is so strikingly simple that considerably, thereby lifting tens of thousands of I cannot believe that even on an off-day the Minister pensioners out of poverty. could resist it—and I hope that today is not an off-day. The legion has done a fair amount of research to see whether it would have that effect. It conducted a Baroness Thomas of Winchester: I offer very warm poll through ComRes as recently as May 2009 and support from these Benches for this proposal, moved found that 75 per cent of members of the public agree so ably by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner. I can that renaming council tax benefit as a rebate might confirm that should there be a Liberal Democrat help encourage more people to make a claim for it. Government after the next election, we would also These words were used by the DWP in its submission bring it in. My right honourable friend in another GC 101 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 102

[BARONESS THOMAS OF WINCHESTER] disappointed that it is not. We have made considerable place, Nick Clegg, has also waxed lyrical about how effort, working with local authorities, to make the we do not like the council tax at all. I am sure that claims process easier. For example, a change was made noble Lords will understand that I must say this, last October to allow pensioners to claim council tax having the opportunity. We think that it should be benefit and housing benefit in a single telephone call scrapped and replaced with a system based on people’s at the same time as pension credit. There are no forms ability to pay, which would be of great benefit to many to sign or return. We are waiting to see the results of older veterans living on low incomes. that important initiative. Council tax benefit has the lowest take-up of any of Even so, there are clearly problems with take-up of the means-tested benefits. Some 1.7 million pensioners, the benefit. The most recent figures for 2007-08 show including many ex-servicemen and women, do not that around 62 per cent to 68 per cent of all those claim it, as we have heard, because they are simply not whom we believe to be entitled to claim council tax prepared to claim a benefit. Research has clearly shown benefit actually do so—the percentage for pensioners that rebranding council tax benefit as a rebate would is smaller. Although one might draw some comfort increase the rate of take-up, and it would be a very from the fact that the percentages for take-up have practical change to help to lift a large number of older been relatively stable for several years, the latest figures people out of poverty. We warmly support the proposal show a 1 per cent drop. This is extremely disappointing, from these Benches and hope that the Government even more so because we have done, and continue to will accept the amendment. do, a number of things to try to boost take-up. We accept that we must do more to remedy the The Countess of Mar: I, too, give the amendment situation and have been impressed with the case made my warm support. Most of these people will not be in by the Royal British Legion, as part of its Return to the income tax bracket, but we have no hesitation Rationing? campaign, that the name “council tax benefit” about claiming income tax rebates. If it was an income is an obstacle to claiming. In recent weeks, the department tax benefit, we might think a bit differently. It is a tax has liaised with the Royal British Legion over what and it should be called a rebate. can be done in the short term in partnership with local Lord McKenzie of Luton: I congratulate my noble authorities to help them re-market council tax benefit friend Lady Turner on moving this amendment. She as part of their work to promote benefit take-up. may have come close to unifying the Committee on an I am sure that noble Lords will appreciate that issue, which is perhaps a first during the course of our changing the name of a benefit is not necessarily deliberations so far. straightforward and has wider ramifications for local The aim of the amendment is to improve take-up of authorities. For example, changes will need to be made council tax benefit, particularly among pensioners, by to IT systems and forms. There are a number of changing its name. As my noble friend and others have resource issues to consider, and careful consideration done, I recognise the role that the Royal British Legion will have to be given also to the wider implications for has played in highlighting this issue. My noble friend customers, as well as local authorities, government Lord Morris of Manchester has put his name to the departments and other agencies all directly involved in amendment; he is unable to be here today, but he has a some way in the delivery of this important benefit. role as honorary parliamentary adviser to the legion However, I can assure my noble friend that we are and gives it his clear support. I am delighted that it has giving this matter urgent consideration. Accordingly, I the support of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, ask her not to press her amendment. I hope that she is and his leader in the other place; the noble Baroness, sufficiently reassured that we are seeking to take this Lady Thomas, and the noble Countess, Lady Mar. matter forward. It is very important that pensioners should claim the benefits to which they are entitled if we are to Baroness Turner of Camden: I thank my noble achieve our aim of reducing pensioner poverty. People friend the Minister for that response and noble Lords should not be deterred from doing so by factors such for contributing to the debate. As my noble friend as an off-putting name. Having said this, the Government rightly said, we have in a sense unified the Committee, are sympathetic to changing the name of council tax because everybody agrees that what is proposed by the benefit to one that better describes its true nature. We Royal British Legion ought at least to be tried in order recognise that it is something that has widespread to get as many people as possible claiming their support and has the potential to make a difference in entitlement. helping people to claim it. The latest data that I have My noble friend is unfortunately not prepared so for council tax benefit take-up, for 2007-08, show far as I can see to accept the amendment at this point, take-up among pensioners of between 53 per cent and but I shall certainly press it on Report if there is no 60 per cent. The potential amount unclaimed is between movement in the direction of accepting it. I hope that £1.2 billion and £1.7 billion, so it is a lot of money that he understands that, because there is widespread could make a real difference to the lives of many agreement with it. We really ought to try it, even pensioners. though there may be some problems for local authorities Sir Michael Lyons pointed out that council tax to sort out. benefit effectively operates as a rebate and renaming it as such would do no more than reflect that fact. Even Lord Skelmersdale: Perhaps I may quickly intervene though council tax benefit already helps more than before the noble Baroness withdraws the amendment. 5 million families, I should like to see the percentage of The Minister said that there would need to be consultation people who take up their entitlement rising and I am with local authorities, which one readily understands. GC 103 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 104

Has this yet started, and if not, is there time for it naturally disappointed that health and social care between now and the next stage of the Bill, given that funding was actively excluded from the legal framework we have something like two-and-a-half or three months for a right to control in the Bill. None of the explanations before then? or assurances that I have heard to date has served to allay my concerns, and thus I feel that I have no option Lord Skelmersdale: I cannot tell the noble Lord but to raise this issue in Committee. precisely what discussions have gone on thus far, but it First, perhaps I may explain why it is vital that is clear that there is time for some discussion between community care funding is included in the right to now and Report to try to identify the practical issues control framework, and transparently so. Noble Lords associated with the proposal. I re-emphasise that the will know that today disabled people face a very Government are very sympathetic towards it. We want fragmented system that demands that we negotiate as it to happen, but some practical and managerial issues many as six different funding agencies, with their clearly need to be addressed. different criteria, to secure a basic support package to enable us just to get up in the morning and live our Baroness Turner of Camden: I thank my noble daily lives. That is a job in itself before you begin your friend, as I do the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for life. The whole point of a right to control is to put us his intervention, which I welcome. So far as concerns in charge of all the resources to which we are entitled. the response of my noble friend, I shall certainly Therefore, the Bill rightly includes—this I am very watch to see what happens on Report and will happy about—a dazzling array of funding streams undoubtedly bring this issue back if there is nothing connected with further and higher education, training, on the agenda on which we can vote at that stage. In securing and retaining employment, enabling independent the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment living in the community and overcoming barriers to participation. We then exclude one of the most significant Amendment 161A withdrawn. funding streams for those of us with what are referred to as high support needs—that is, people just like me. Clauses 29 and 30 agreed. For those of us who are entitled to social care support, it is vital that the right to control provides the means for us to access those resources seamlessly and Clause 31 : Relevant services incorporate them in our individual budgets; otherwise we will be at a huge disadvantage. This should not be 2.30 pm left to chance, good will or a “we will all work together later on down the line” attitude. If the right to control Amendment 162 is to be effective in freeing disabled people from dependency and bureaucracy, it must be clear from the Moved by Baroness Campbell of Surbiton start that this fundamental, important public support 162: Clause 31, page 38, line 9, leave out subsections (5) service is included. and (6) I understand that Ministers have suggested that they want to avoid duplicating existing social care Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: Before I speak to legislation and that somehow this right to control the amendment, I should inform the Committee that, would override all the good work within the Department due to weather conditions and my asthma, the usual of Health. That is baffling. Not only do I know the channels have allowed my noble friend Lady Wilkins Department of Health funding streams backwards, I to assist me should I not quite get through all the know that there is no social care legislation that talks amendments. She will be my voice. This is a pilot and about the right to control which does not have this we will see how it goes. exciting architecture that we have been developing. I begin by declaring two interests. First, I have the Nor does the legislation require local authorities to privilege of being the chair of the right to control ensure that social care funding is pooled in an individual working group, so all these amendments on the right budget. If Ministers and noble Lords consider that to control are very close to my heart. I have been direct payments regulations suffice, then they really working very happily for 18 months with the Department must think again. Direct payments regulations do not for Work and Pensions on the design and the architecture provide the legislative basis for self-directed support of this new and very exciting principle. Much of it, I or individual budgets in the way that a right to control am delighted to say, has found itself being put into the will do in future. Local authorities who have implemented Bill, although there are a few tweaks still to be made. I something akin to the right to control in social care also declare that I am a long-term user of social care have been unable to use those regulations. Instead, services and direct payments in the UK. they have had to rely on powers of well-being in other legislation, which I have found not fit for purpose. The purpose of the amendment is very simple. It is to remove the exclusion of community care services Ministers have also suggested that there are powers from Clause 31. Ministers have been very clear that in other legislation requiring local authorities to co-operate the right-to-control trailblazers are intended to ensure with the right to control system, but we have been that different funding streams can effectively be aligned given no details. What disabled people see when they and integrated. This is to ensure an end to fragmentation look at this Bill is a gigantic hole at its heart, which and the successful operation of individual budgets. At makes nonsense of assurances of alignment and raises last, our lives are going to be won. Therefore, I am fears of continued fragmentation. To rebuild trust in GC 105 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 106

[BARONESS CAMPBELL OF SURBITON] move towards implementing that initiative. We would politics, legislation must say what it means. Social care please the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Manchester, as is either included in the right to control or it is not. well as the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, by accepting The White Paper and Ministers say one thing and the her amendment. Bill says another, which is not an acceptable state of affairs. After all, we are looking for better legislation Baroness Wilkins: Speaking for myself, I strongly and regulation. support this amendment. It removes the exclusion of It is not just me who is uppity about this. Along community care services and funding from the ambit with RADAR and fellow members of the Disability of right to control. It makes no sense for a scheme that Benefits Consortium, I have sought the view of one of is all about ending fragmentation and introducing a our leading community care lawyers, Luke Clements. seamless approach to support planning to explicitly He advises that the exclusions are totally unnecessary exclude such a key funding stream. The Minister will and that there is good cause to seek to remove them. I doubtless state that the intention is for social care have spoken to Department of Health lawyers who funding to be included in individual budgets under the have said something else. Put 10 lawyers in the room trailblazers. However, the Bill provides no mechanism and you will probably get 10 different answers. to insist on adult social care co-operation. David Stocks, a user of mental health services, was Given the length of time that it is taking to roll out recently speaking alongside me at the launch of the the personalisation and the relatively few adult social current right to control consultation. It was a hot care authorities which have individualised budgets, I potato that was being discussed. He said: do not think that we can be confident that alignment, “What disabled people want from this policy”— let along integration, will necessarily take place. Remember the new legislation— that we are talking about individualised budgets and “is a one-stop shop for empowerment, seize this moment”. new ways of working, not simply direct payment. I would urge the Minister to undertake to work with the For goodness’ sake, we should look at this together Department of Health to reconsider the exclusion of and seize this moment. I beg to move. community care from the Bill. The message that exclusion sends out is that we are not being joined-up. I do not Baroness Thomas of Winchester: I am very glad to believe that that is a very helpful message to send out be able to support the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, at all. in this amendment, and finally to reach a part of the Bill of which we thoroughly approve. However, that is Lord Skelmersdale: The noble Baroness, Lady not to say that everything in the garden is quite as rosy Campbell, started with what I can only describe as a as it might be. Perhaps my first quotation should be devastating critique of joined-up government in the from RADAR’s chief executive, Liz Sayce, during the area of services for disabled people, and of course she first evidence-taking session in another place. Regarding is absolutely right. The Bill holds out absolutely no the general principle of this part of the Bill, she said: help to us at all. In England, there is to be excluded: “I … think that the right to control is absolutely transformative, community care services, Carers and Disabled Children and disabled people around the country really welcome it. Act services and services under the Children Act. In However, she went on to say: Scotland, there is to be excluded: community care “The whole point of the right to control, as set out in the services and services provided under Section 22(1) of White Paper, was that it promised to give disabled people the the Children (Scotland) Act. That does not smack of power to take a range of funding streams, and people want to be what the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, said was able to access that range of funding streams and pool resources to achieve what they want in their lives. If the funding streams better legislation. If anything, it is a step backwards, remain separate, there is a risk that part of the White Paper’s goal and that is not what one wants. will not be achieved”. So I, too, add my support to the noble Baroness’s Her concern was echoed by Paul Davies, service director amendment, which leaves out the exclusion of community of adult social care in Oldham, who said: care services from the services that a disabled person “Our experience in Oldham … is that division in funding will have the right to control; broadly speaking, the streams is a sovereign recipe for ensuring that people who use provision of carers, or accommodation, or support services, or try to negotiate their way through them, do not which is currently mainly provided by local authorities—or manage to make any progress”. so we are told. But it ain’t so, is it? I have the figures As the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, said, retaining with me, but I am sure that other Members of the the explicit exclusions of community care services is Committee will know that even though personalised likely to cause confusion and is the exact opposite of budgets have been available for several years in the joined-up government. We support the amendment to social services field, the take-up has been deplorable. exclude the exclusions. It has been miniscule—I believe less than 1 per cent. However, I shall not go on about that. The Countess of Mar: The Equality and Human Rights Commission has written to me asking me to 2.45 pm support these amendments, which I wholeheartedly This exclusion of services provided by local authorities do. The noble Lord will recall that at Question Time seems rather short-sighted. Social care will be one of today we had a Question about the UN convention the significant areas, important in enabling the disabled and ratifying it. The Equality and Human Rights person to achieve almost any of those matters. The Commission believes that this will be a very good services that most disabled people will draw on to GC 107 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 108 some extent at least will not be subject to direct departments to hang on jealously to their pots of control and, as a result, any claims by the Government money instead of combining for a common purpose, that they are delivering a fully flexible and modern rather than that of a disabled person. We should have system sounds distinctly hollow. It is a great shame, as one common framework for assessing all services—and, the Government had looked—as has been pointed potentially, we should put together all the funding out—as though they might have been prepared to do streams and resources so that they can be directed in a something brave and far-reaching, which could not way that suits requirements. only transform the lives of those who would now be in I urge the Minister to bear in mind a point made in control of directing their own care but engender a new the other place—that we have the luxury of testing way of looking at how welfare in the widest sense is this with a pilot scheme before rolling the scheme out dispersed. nationally. If he acceded to the amendment, he would Let us look at some of the history of these proposals. be pleasantly surprised by the outcome of those pilots. It looked as if the Government would be persuaded by I most strongly support the noble Baroness, the arguments put to them. The Green Paper, No one Lady Campbell. Written Off: Reforming Welfare to Reward Responsibility, which contained proposals to reform the welfare system, Lord McKenzie of Luton: I start by thanking the was published for consultation in July 2008. It also noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, for moving this proposed to explore rolling out individual budgets for amendment, her strong leadership on this issue and disabled people, should earlier pilots prove successful. her engagement with government. It is truly valued Chapter 5 of the Green Paper, “Delivering choice and even if, on occasions, we will not see eye to eye. In that control for disabled people”, posed the following question vein, I shall start off with a note of disagreement. The for consultation in respect of individual budgets, which proposition that having 10 lawyers in a room provides included the statement: 10 different answers is outwith my experience; it is “We are interested in exploring how disabled people might usually 20. receive a reliable and equitable service when requesting choice and control of the funds used to meet their needs, and whether public authorities could be expected not to unreasonably refuse Lord Skelmersdale: What about accountants? such a request”. A selection of the responses to the consultation paper Lord McKenzie of Luton: Accountants are much was set out in appendix A of the subsequent White more objective. Paper, Raising Expectations and Increasing Support: Reforming Welfare for the Future. It revealed that the In 2005, the Government made public their majority of respondents, including the Scottish commitment to work towards equality for disabled Government and many of the stakeholders and charities people by 2025, and I say to the noble Lord, Lord which have been briefing noble Lords, were supportive Skelmersdale, who was castigating the Government of giving disabled people greater choice and control for not being joined up on issues, that over the past over services. The responses were overwhelmingly in 12 years this Government have done a lot to support favour of direct control. However, I fear that having and enfranchise disabled people. I draw his attention raised the expectations of disabled people the Government to the independent living strategy published recently are prepared to dash them with what I can only that looks at issues across government. describe as the timidity of Clause 31. I note that the amendment has support across the Committee from the noble Baronesses, Lady Thomas I have in common with other noble Lords concerns and Lady Wilkins, the noble Countess, Lady Mar, and over the scope of the right to control as it is envisaged the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. by the Government and which funding streams will be included in that right. Amendment 162, which is equivalent Since 2005, we have come a long way, continuing to to an amendment tabled in another place by my build on commitments to create a system that allows honourable friend Mark Harper, includes community disabled people to have maximum choice and control care budgets and social care service payments within over the support services that they receive. The noble the scope of DWP direct payments. In his response to Baroness’s amendment would bring community care our amendment, I should be interested to hear from services for disabled people within the scope of the the Minister why certain funding streams have been right to control provisions in this Bill. Community excluded. As well as diluting control for disabled people, care policy is already consistent with the aims of the the continuance of separate funding streams creates Bill. Existing legislation already provides for direct unnecessary complication and bureaucracy for a system payments in respect of community care services and intended to be user-focused. By adopting our approach, the power to direct local authorities about the delivery we would combine funding streams that would enable of those services. There is also legislation in respect of people with a disability to purchase—that dreaded certain services for children. The ministerial concordat, word—holistic services, and support, and ensure Putting People First, which I will cover shortly, binds consistency of approach. In addition, I fear that the together all the key players. To answer the noble Lord, confusion caused by multiple funding streams will Lord Skelmersdale, directly, the exclusion of community have a detrimental effect on take-up and may even care in the Bill is to ensure that we do not duplicate, or impact on the quality of services. In persisting in cause confusion with, existing powers. keeping community care services separate, the Government The cross-sector concordat, Putting People First, appear to be more concerned with promoting establishes the collaboration between central and local departmental points of view, allowing different government, the sector’s professional leadership, providers GC 109 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 110

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] more cohesive legal framework for adult social care, and the regulator. It sets out the shared aims and which is consistent, transparent and in line with the values that will guide the transformation of adult modern understanding of disability. social care, and recognises that the sector will work It would not seem right to make further piecemeal across agendas with users and carers to transform reform of adult social care law until the Law Commission people’s experience of local support and services. has completed its work. We will review its findings and We have created the cross-government independent determine whether it impacts on the right to control living strategy, which I referred to a moment ago. It is after the report has been produced. That does not stop a five-year plan that aims to make sure that disabled us in the trailblazers making sure we use the powers people have the same choice, freedom, dignity and that are there to be joined up, and to test and develop control over their lives as non-disabled people. We also what the right to control would mean, including for piloted individual budgets in 13 local authorities between community care services. There is no intent that these 2005 and 2007. Across government, the shared ambition should somehow be outwith this approach. We are is to put people first through a radical reform of really talking about how the intent should be framed public services, enabling people to live their own lives in legislation, and I hope that the noble Baroness will as they wish, confident that services are of high quality, accept that. safe and promote their individual needs for independence, well-being and dignity. The right to control is an Lord Skelmersdale: I picked up three things from important and welcome step forward in our journey what the Minister said. First, he spoke of putting towards increased choice and control, helping us to people first, and in this case disabled people. Nobody achieve full equality for disabled people by 2025. could take exception to that. Secondly, the Government We all recognise the importance to disabled people want to avoid confusion by the duplication of existing of giving them the choice and control they want over powers. We are complaining that existing powers are their lives. We need to make sure that this new right to not in one place or piece of legislation. It is not control is implemented in a way that delivers real beyond the wit of the draftsman to import the powers choice and control for disabled people. We are confident already enacted in the various Acts that I read out that we can achieve this by using relevant powers in earlier and to put them into the Bill. I cannot see that community care legislation alongside the powers contained this would be in any way out of the scope of the Bill. I in this Bill. suppose that it is just possible that—I am stretching The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, has said that my imagination a thundering long way—the Law the right to control will be transformative. Disabled Commission will come up with that proposal. people around the country really welcome it. It builds The Minister said the Law Commission had started. on the important work of the 2005 report Improving Law Commission reviews, in my experience, take any the Life Chances of Disabled People and the 2008 length of time, starting with a minimum of five years. independent living strategy. It also builds on the success Can the Minister tell us how far through its operation of direct payments. the Law Commission is? I welcome these views, which fully reflect our intentions. We want to build on best practice from direct payments, Lord McKenzie of Luton: I do not have a work-in- offering greater choice and control by extending direct progress report from the Law Commission. As I said, payments and self-directed support to other services. the work is underway and the intent is to produce a Creating a more joined-up system, which places report in May 2011. I am not in a position to say how fewer administrative burdens on disabled adults, is one far it has reached in its deliberations, but that is the of the areas we want to investigate as we trailblaze the timescale. right to control. I can confirm that we will be evaluating As regards the noble Lord’s earlier points, we are in the trailblazers how the services under the right to trying to say that there is a system out there at the control fit with community care services in order to moment. We would cause confusion if we overrode ensure a seamless service of self-directed support. I that system and had another legislative approach included believe that we have a common cause on that issue. in the Bill while the Law Commission is looking at the We are working closely with colleagues in other framework of adult social care law. Therefore, what is government departments to ensure that our policy the difficulty? We are saying that we need to work with objectives are consistent, and to explore ways in which the current system, which covers and enables a right to we can work collectively for the benefit of disabled control in certain fields, through our trailblazers and people. The right to control, and the current changes to evaluate those various legislative streams but to to the delivery of adult social care, will together enable achieve that common purpose. I do not see the noble the implementation of the Government’s commitment Lord’s difficulty. to empower disabled people, and ensure that choice and control are recognised as a right. 3pm To pick up on one point that the noble Baroness, Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: I thank all noble Lady Campbell, raised about the legal structure around Lords who have supported the amendment: the noble community care, I am sure that she is aware that the Countess, Lady Mar, the noble Baronesses, Lady Wilkins Law Commission is currently undertaking a project to and Lady Thomas, and the noble Lord, Lord review adult social care law in England and Wales Skelmersdale—support from around the Room is what with a view to producing a report in May 2011. The we like. While I was disappointed by the Minister’s overall aim of the project is to provide a clearer and response, I was not surprised, because I have been GC 111 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 112 having this conversation with both the Department of people receiving direct payments on somebody else’s Health and the Department for Work and Pensions behalf were able to access advice, information and for some time. I suspect that the problem may not lie other support. with the DWP but with another department, so there It seems strange to many of us that the right to is work to be done in the summer. control in this Bill makes no such provision. It is To wait until 2011 for a right to control seems a widely accepted that many direct payment users rely long time. Luke Clements has told me that a right to on support services, whether for initial information, control would benefit the Law Commission, including advice, guidance, and training on becoming an employer community and social care and healthcare services, as and managing payroll and insurance, or for ongoing the commission reports and reviews, because it could support in managing their money and paying staff. It then come under the same architecture. For that to is hard to imagine people who hitherto have been come along later would simply be confusing. The Law denied choice and control and are anxious about what Commission would benefit from aligned legislation direct payments involve taking the huge step to managing under the right to control. their own budget without access to this kind of support. The intention to help bring the right to control up The Government have acknowledged the vital role to the level of community care services intrigues me, that user-led organisations providing direct payments because I do not see that the Government are well support services play in increasing the take-up of ahead of the game. When noble Lords hear my next direct payments and improving direct payments users’ amendment, they will understand why it is very important experiences and outcomes, and they want every locality that we bring social care in line with this extremely to benefit from one. In the 2005 Improving the Life new and exciting architecture. However, it will be Chances of Disabled People report from the Prime neither new nor exciting if we do not align. I shall Minister’s Strategy Unit, a pledge was made that: therefore probably come back to the amendment on “By 2010, each locality (defined as that area covered by a Report, but, for now, I beg leave to withdraw it. Council with social services responsibilities) should have a user-led organisation modelled on existing CILs”— Amendment 162 withdrawn. centres for independent living. While I am on that point, will the Minister take the Clause 31 agreed. opportunity to update the Grand Committee on progress towards that 2010 commitment, which would underpin Clause 32 agreed. the effective delivery of the right to control? The life chances report is effectively government policy but, The Deputy Chairman of Committees: It has been despite an ongoing programme by the Department of suggested that, in view of the temperature, it might be Health involving development funding and capacity for the convenience of noble Lords and other gentlemen building, no one can say if or when this target might attending the Committee that they remove their jackets. be achieved. Furthermore, which local authority areas I hope the Committee will see that as appropriate. have such provision and what proportion of direct payments users have access to them? Therefore, can Lord McKenzie of Luton: I was hoping that the the Minister assure us that anyone accessing direct noble Baroness was going to say that we could go to payments under these provisions, whether as part of the Terrace. the pilots or subsequently, following national rollout, will have access to a support service at no extra cost? I ask simply because the Bill is silent on this matter. Clause 33 : Power to make provision enabling exercise We understand that various aspects of delivering of greater choice and control the right to control are currently being consulted on, and it is likely that other forms of advice and support will be required. However, direct payments support Amendment 163 services specifically seem to be a fundamental prerequisite Moved by Baroness Thomas of Winchester of a successful trailblazer programme and of future 163: Clause 33, page 39, line 10, at end insert “including, in rollout. Will the Minister say whether part of the particular, making arrangements with voluntary organisations to £5 million allocated to the eight trailblazers will be provide disabled persons with assistance in connection with direct invested in ensuring the availability of direct payments payments” support services? Can he also tell us about the progress of the network of sustainable centres for independent Baroness Thomas of Winchester: The amendment is living, be they standalone organisations or creative modelled on a subsection of the Health Bill that partnerships? Are the social care transformation grants permits direct payments for health services initially on for local authorities being deployed in capacity building a trial basis. Section 11 of that Bill enables the Secretary of user-led organisations? If the right to control is of State to make arrangements with third parties, rolled out nationally from 2013 following successful including voluntary organisations, to give assistance trailblazers, surely the infrastructure for support services to people in connection with direct payments. As a should already be in place by that time. result of lobbying by my noble friend Lady Barker, the When a similar amendment was debated in the provision was strengthened by a government amendment other place, similar questions were asked but no clear to make it more explicit in the Bill that the NHS response was given. The Minister said that the amendment should make arrangements to ensure that patients or was “too prescriptive” as people may prefer to draw GC 113 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 114

[BARONESS THOMAS OF WINCHESTER] two of the group their carers came to put them to bed on the support of family and friends, but this amendment at such a time that it was not possible for them to go to is enabling; it prescribes nothing. Those who have a matinee at the cinema. This was the very group for family resources will doubtless draw on them, but whom many noble Lords, myself included, pressed in what of those who have no such resources? There are the 1990s, as well as after 1997, to ensure direct many disabled people in that position and they need payments would happen. the assurance provided by this amendment. I beg I asked the manager of the very good charity what to move. he was able to do about this. He said that he thought the charity should be providing all the care and then Baroness Wilkins: I support the noble Baroness, the people would be able to go to the cinema. I asked Lady Thomas, in this amendment. I absolutely agree him, “Why row when you can steer? What about with her that direct payments support services need to encouraging younger people and those who wish to, to be in place to ensure the effective implementation of go on to direct payments?” He said, “They won’t be right to control. I declare an interest as vice-chair of able to manage it”. I said, “This is a city of financial Hammersmith and Fulham Action on Disability, which services. There are a couple of thousand people employed provides such services. HAFAD’s experience is that in all the major financial companies, and there is a support services take the mystery out of direct payments hunger to offer services for voluntary work. Why don’t for disabled people. Imagine someone who has never you organise a help list of volunteers who have financial enjoyed real choice and control in their lives—someone and management skills and want to do two or four who has been tied up in knots and disempowered by hours a fortnight, put them in contact with some of the system. How is he to feel confident in taking on your clients and see whether together they can run a budget management and the role of employer without direct payment service so that at the next half-term peer support and guidance? they can go to the cinema?” He said, “Oh well, I don’t We should not underestimate the damage to people’s know about that”. confidence wreaked by the disabling systems we subject This is part of a city that is not central London, not them to. Unless this is taken on board, we will one of the big metropolises and, to some extent, at the unnecessarily restrict disabled people’s options to take end of the railway line, so it is trying to work within control. Department of Health direct payments guidance the confines of its own experience. It seemed such an states that the provision of a support service is key to obvious way to go. The centre, which is a very good the successful implementation of direct payments and voluntary organisation, could match volunteers and that, needs to expand choice and put the disabled person at “support provided through voluntary/recipient-run organisations the centre of the care service and not at the edges of it; has been shown to be particularly effective and valued by recipients”. in other words, as the organiser of it and not the Moreover, there is a clear correlation between direct recipient. That probably cannot happen, particularly payment support services controlled and run by disabled for somebody with mild learning difficulties, without people and successful implementation of direct payments. the support of voluntary organisations helping them Seven out of 10 of the top-performing local authorities to manage and employ. on direct payments contract a user-led support service We are not talking about expenditure. We are talking to ensure effective implementation of direct payments about simple, straightforward ways of encouraging for healthcare. Specific provision for support services the players in local authorities and the voluntary has been included in the Health Bill. Surely, it would sector to see themselves as facilitators of bringing be strange if Ministers were to resist calls for similar together people who are offering voluntary time to provision in Part 2. those who may be glad of that service so that they can take greater control of their own lives. If my noble Lord Northbourne: I was not intending to intervene friend can take this forward even more successfully in this debate, but the noble Baroness talked about the than it has been taken so far—many of us have been complications of becoming an employer. I have just fighting for this cause for many years—he will earn the received the paperwork from the relevant authority gratitude of all of us. about what I have to do in order to employ one person, and I am shattered by it. Somebody who has 3.15 pm not had any kind of experience of paperwork cannot Baroness Turner of Camden: I support everything be expected to do it without help. that has just been said. Speaking from my own experience, a number of years ago I was a carer for my husband in Baroness Hollis of Heigham: If the Committee will the last three years of his life. At that time I approached indulge me, I will repeat an incident that happened to our local authority for assistance and somebody duly me over Easter when I was with a friend, who is a came to see me. After looking at everything, she said, patron of a wonderful charity in my city. It helps “Well, I know that we’re supposed to give you some disabled children and disabled adults with learning assistance, but it is within available resources, you difficulties. Since it was the holidays, children were know. The resources in this area are really rather going to the centre as well as the adults. They were limited. Lady Turner, we would be grateful if you trying to encourage the adults to come out with them could do everything you can for yourself”. So I made in a bus to the local cinema. The problem was that some inquiries with neighbours and so on, and eventually they could not take the disabled adults with learning found a nice woman in the next road who was willing disabilities—some with complex health needs, but perfectly to come in and help me. I paid her, of course, quite competent in all sorts of ways—because in the case of separately. GC 115 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 116

As far as the local authority was concerned, however, their own lives, or just feeling that it could all be too it was all about “within available resources”, and much hassle. Having built up these tremendous resources were very limited, so, “please do the best you expectations, the Government must find a way of can for yourself”. I hope that there will be an attempt satisfying them. under the Bill to ensure that local authorities have the available resources; otherwise a lot of this will not come off at all. Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank the noble Baroness for this amendment and all noble Lords who have spoken. We have had some interesting contributions Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: I am not going to and some real-life and challenging experiences. I note hold the Committee up by supporting the amendment that the amendment has support right around the again at too great a length, but of course I absolutely Committee, from the noble Lords, Lord Skelmersdale support it. As a co-founder of the National Centre for and Lord Northbourne, and the noble Baronesses, Independent Living—for 10 years that organisation Lady Campbell and Lady Wilkins, to my noble friends has developed to assist support schemes to develop, Lady Turner and Lady Hollis. I think that everyone grow and thrive—I can clearly tell Members of the who has spoken—nearly everyone who is here—has Committee that, where there was a support scheme, supported it. there were disabled people emancipated, coming out of their back rooms, employing people, learning from This amendment would enable the Government to others, getting lots of peer support, moving on, having regulate for the provision of assistance with direct families and getting jobs. Surely that is what this payments by voluntary organisations. I acknowledge legislation is all about. When there is a support scheme, the point—which is implicit in the amendment and that will happen. There is nothing better than peer has been spoken to powerfully by a number of noble support to get people out of the back room and living Lords—that the availability of advice and brokerage when they have spent many decades dependent on the services will be very important to the success of the state. I absolutely support the amendment. trailblazers. Before turning to the amendment text itself, I would like to acknowledge that the voluntary sector can and Lord Skelmersdale: I second the view of the noble does play a key role in delivering personalisation and Baroness, Lady Campbell. Of course I agree that achieving independent living for disabled people. The access to peer support and advice on managing direct 2005 report Improving the Life Chances of Disabled payments plays a vital role in making a success of People stressed the need to improve the availability of individual budgets. How could I not? How, indeed, advice and advocacy services for disabled people. That could the Minister not? The question that he must report put a particular emphasis on the role of answer is what other options are available for people organisations that are led and controlled by disabled to exercise greater control. That is the only way that he people. It set out a commitment that by 2010 there can defend what I suspect will be the Government’s should be a user-led organisation—ULO—in every position. locality in England. Having ready access to information, or contact We have brought in several measures to help us with groups who know how the system works would, work towards this target. The Department of Health it goes without saying, be useful for boosting confidence has invested £1.65 million in a ULO development among potential users to take up direct budgets. People fund. The Office for Disability Issues has recently who have never been offered any level of control committed a further £700,000 to provide additional before may be anxious about what a direct payment support to developing ULOs. The noble Baroness, may involve—quite understandably, given that many Lady Thomas, asked me directly about progress towards of them are not in the best of health. our target on that. As well as the funding that I have In passing, I remember shocking many noble Lords just mentioned, we believe that for 2009-10, the current many years ago—before most noble Lords in this year, a key priority is to develop the capacity and Room were in the House—by making a remark along capability of existing ULOs to support the development the lines of, “Of course, you have to be fit to be of ULOs where none currently exists. Deputy regional successfully disabled”. That described what I thought, directors for social care and partnerships—DRDs—in but did not quite come out as it was intended. the nine regions will be taking forward the lessons learnt from the action and learning sites and developing plans towards meeting recommendations in their own Baroness Hollis of Heigham: It’s the thought that regions. We have commissioned further mapping to counts, Roger. identify further progress and it will be used to inform the regional development work. We will work with the Lord Skelmersdale: Thank you. They may well have DRDs to measure the progress towards the objective concerns about employing their own staff, or not be of a ULO in every activity. In short, we are not there aware of exactly what use they can put their resources yet but there is progress. to. The ability to access quality support services—using Voluntary organisations are not the sole providers the good offices of a helpful voluntary group, if necessary, of support and the trailblazers will explore a range of to broker services or manage payroll, which the noble options. For example, as the noble Baroness, Lady Baroness, Lady Hollis, spoke about—will in many Thomas, acknowledged, the Department of Health-led cases make the difference between someone feeling individual budgets pilots found that many people chose able to take a direct payment and taking control of to involve their family and friends in deciding how to GC 117 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 118

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] would be a very good way in which to use that sort of spend their budget. The trailblazer design should preserve procedure, have a look at this matter informally and flexibility to explore other options that people put make suggestions. forward. Our commitment to a co-production approach has been broadly welcomed, and I intend to preserve Lord McKenzie of Luton: We started a consultation the framework that will deliver on that commitment. process around the right to control a couple of weeks Therefore, while I support the spirit of this amendment, ago. Where we go with the nature of the trailblazers I cannot accept it. The amendment focuses specifically and the components of the issues around support will on the voluntary sector and on assistance in connection be very much guided by that consultation. However, with direct payments. This captures only a small part as ever, I am happy that we share with the noble of the types of assistance disabled people might require Baroness and other noble Lords our thinking as that and the ways in which they might choose to receive develops, particularly around provision for support assistance. Although the amendment is not prescriptive for people. I readily accept the tenor of the debate—that in the noble Baroness’s terms and would not prevent if that is not there then a nominal right to control the Government making regulations relating to other types direct payments is not going to mean very much. of assistance, it could suggest that other sources of support would not have the same emphasis. Baroness Thomas of Winchester: I thank the Minister I do not think that the voluntary sector should very much for that offer, and I shall examine exactly carry the burden of being the sole support provider, what he said in his earlier response and think what I and we should avoid suggesting that that is the case. shall do in the later stages of the Bill. Meanwhile, I beg Neither do I see the right to control as simply a system leave to withdraw the amendment. of direct payments; the Government want to see support being made widely available in the context of the right to control, not being confined to assistance with making Amendment 163 withdrawn. direct payments. I have set out some of the existing 3.30 pm arrangements for support, which we shall explore in the trailblazers, when we can look at other options. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): The Bill gives us sufficient power to return to this in The next amendment is Amendment 164, to be moved regulations, if necessary, so we do not need it set in the by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton. Bill. However, at this time I do not want to signal any intention to constrain our valuable co-productive Amendment 164 approach. Accordingly, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment. Moved by Baroness Campbell of Surbiton 164: Clause 33, page 39, line 11, leave out from “particular,” to Baroness Thomas of Winchester: I thank all Members end of line 22 and insert “impose duties on a relevant authority that is or may be obliged, or has decided, to provide a relevant of the Grand Committee who have spoken and supported service to, or to arrange the provision of a relevant service for, a the amendment. Some very graphic phrases were used, disabled person (P) in prescribed circumstances to do the following— such as when the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, said (a) to support P to assess his own needs; that support services would take the mystery out of (b) to assess the value of any relevant services to which P is direct payments. That is a very good one, and very entitled; important. As for the experience of becoming an (c) to notify P of the value of these services (his “individual employer voice by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, budget”) and of his right to choose how his individual I have worried about that for a long time; anyone who budget is managed; has run any sort of payroll knows that it is terribly (d) to support P to draw up a plan (his “support plan”) complicated. You do not want to make a mistake setting out how he wishes his needs to be met, using his because you feel that you might get had up by HMRC individual budget; for fraud or something awful. (e) to support P to review and revise his support plan; The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, gave us a most (f) to notify P that he must decide whether he wishes to take graphic example. On this business of people who need his individual budget in the form of— assistance going to bed, their carers can sometimes (i) a payment to him (a direct payment); turn up appallingly early. She gave a very good example (ii) a payment to any prescribed person for that person of how a lot of people coming together in a city can to manage on his behalf and in accordance with his help each other. It sounded very interesting. The experience support plan; of the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, also had great (iii) the provision of services by the relevant authorities resonance, as that is exactly what happens in a lot which accord with his support plan; or of cases. (iv) any combination of sub-paragraphs (i), (ii) and The Minister fell back on our old friend flexibility, (iii); which is a double-edged sword. He talked about these (g) to comply with a decision by P under paragraph (f). measures possibly being contained in regulations, but ( ) The right of P to receive a direct payment under subsection (2) might we see a draft of the regulations under this is subject to any conditions that may be imposed by virtue of clause when they are produced? It would be extremely regulations made under section 34.” helpful if we could see a genuine draft and make comments on the regulations. I know that the Grand Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: This is probably Committee was not persuaded by my idea of super- one of my favourite amendments. I have waxed lyrical affirmatives, but I am still rather keen on them. They on this subject for 18 months. In fact, instead of GC 119 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 120 calling it the right to control, I am starting to call it the The final problem with this part of the Bill is that it real right to control. By the time we get to Report, I contains no mechanism to give a disabled person the shall probably have T-shirts for noble Lords with “The right to control other than in the form of a direct Real Right to Control” on them. payment. Many disabled people do not want cash to buy their support. Indeed, we have just had a conversation This amendment is about getting the principle on how difficult that whole administration bit absolutely right for this transformative initiative. It we is—employing people and so on—but we want a service want transformation, we can have it, but unfortunately that reflects what we need to do in our lives. Why can we cannot have it with the way in which the Bill is services not get us up at eight for work and put us to currently written. bed at 11 when we drag home from the pub? Instead, The purpose of my amendment is to ensure that disabled people want the public agency to arrange for Clauses 33 and 34 accurately reflect the policy intent services to meet their needs. That is not beyond the of the right to control, as set out in the White Paper whit of services. In these circumstances, it must still be Raising Expectations and Increasing Support: Reforming possible to have choice and control over how needs are Welfare for the Future. I have it here and I read it every met. It must be a fundamental principle of a real right night—I know those principles. The White Paper heralded to control that you are not required to take responsibility a radical transformation of the welfare state. No longer for managing the money to enjoy choice and control would public authorities serve up a one-size-fits-all over the services you receive. Disabled people who opt service; no longer would disabled people be cast in the for services must be assured that those services will be role of passive recipients. Instead, disabled people arranged and delivered in line with their wishes and would be empowered to take real control of the public aspirations, so that they can access work so that they service support to which they are entitled. This is after can take control of their families again. decades of being passive, so it is very important. These amendments reinstate the key principles outlined However, I am afraid that the transformative approach in the White Paper and therefore fully reflect the promised in the White Paper is being lost in translation. Government’s intent. I see three major principles of Clause 33 states that public authorities will carry out intent in my amendments. First, they give disabled an assessment of the disabled person’s needs, but does people the clear and automatic right to be told the not recognise, as the White Paper puts it, that disabled level of resources they are entitled to: their budget; people are the experts in their own lives. It then states secondly, they give the right to be equal partners in the that the authorities will prepare, in consultation with process of assessment and support planning; and, the disabled person, a plan setting out the way in thirdly, they give the right to have real control over which the authority proposes to meet those needs. how resources are used, regardless of whether the This merely replicates current professional and service-led disabled person opt for a direct payment, direct service relationships and does not reflect the White Paper’s or a mixture of both. intention that disabled people should be recognised as I understand that the Government have concern experts in how best to meet their needs and achieve over certain aspects of similar amendments debated in agreed outcomes and that there should be a more Committee in the other place. I have aimed to address equal partnership at work. Indeed, the White Paper these concerns in my amendments by, for example, gives an example of support planning that clearly puts ensuring that there remains scope for regulations to the disabled person in the driving seat, working specify exceptional cases where a disabled person may constructively with the public authority, yet the Bill not have an unfettered right to a direct payment. In does not deliver that vision accurately. addition, I have provided for future regulations to set Further, Clauses 33 and 34 suggest that a disabled out how a disabled person may appeal to an independent person will need to make a specific request to trigger authority against a decision not to comply with his notification of their resource allocation and another wish for a direct payment. request for a direct payment. Placing the onus on My amendments aim to deliver the clarity we need disabled people to know that they have a right to to make this policy a success and enable disabled request these things simply will not do. We know from people to be active citizens not, as services would have experience of community care legislation that giving them now, burdens of the state or just a bit better. disabled people the right to request really works only The Bill does not deliver this policy. I have spent a for highly articulate, well informed and determined great of time working with DWP officials in an individuals—basically, bloody-minded people like attempt to explain these changes, and I should like to me—who get the services. However, it simply does not thank them for their openness and willingness to find deliver to the majority who desperately need and want a way through. Today, I am hoping to receive a them. Therefore, there must be a clear and specific constructive and favourable response and that the duty on the authorities to inform people of their right Minister will undertake to bring back government to control; otherwise, authorities that are less robust amendments on Report. I believe that we are finding than we would like them to be can all too easily avoid a way through this one, so I am eager to hear what he relinquishing power to disabled people. They simply has to say. I beg to move. forget to tell them about it. It is wrong to assume that if people do not ask for more choice and control, they Baroness Thomas of Winchester: It is very disappointing do not want it. Moreover, we must not impose yet that the language of the Bill does not appear to reflect more red tape and burdens on disabled people to the policy intended in the White Paper. As the noble request this, that and the other. That would defeat the Baroness, Lady Campbell, said, it certainly does not whole purpose of the policy. give the impression that the Government are now GC 121 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 122

[BARONESS THOMAS OF WINCHESTER] The drafting of Clauses 31 and 32 more closely focusing on disabled people being in charge of their resembles the right to request direct payments and own futures. It still looks as though they are having does not provide for self-directed support. Clause 33(2)(a) decisions made for them, albeit after consultation. If states that the relevant authority will carry out an anyone exemplifies someone who is in charge of her assessment of the disabled person’s need, which suggests own life, it is the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. I that it will follow the old model, where professionals urge the Government to listen to what she says in this dictate to disabled people rather than the self-directed area as she is the expert. support model, which involves a supported self-assessment, Gone are the days when many disabled people were empowering the disabled person to say what their own content to sit back and let other people run their lives. needs are. The White Paper said that the intention of The changes proposed in the amendment are crucial the legal right to control is to reflect the fact that a to reflect the changed climate in which these provisions disabled individual is the expert in his or her life. That are being brought forward. We support the amendments simply must be the case. most strongly. The Government will have to make clear their intentions. It is not enough, and will certainly not fob Baroness Wilkins: I strongly support the amendments, off noble Lords in this Committee—still less those which seek to ensure that the radical policy of a right people outside who are waiting for government promises to control, contained in the White Paper, finds more to be delivered—for the Government to continue spouting accurate expression in the Bill. I strongly agree with rhetoric about guaranteeing individual choice and the arguments put forward by the noble Baroness, trusting people to judge what is in their own best Lady Campbell. Clauses 33 and 34 provide the basis interests and act accordingly, and other fine intentions, on which the right to control would be implemented while waiting, for example, for a Law Commission across Britain post the trailblazers. The White Paper report, which may or may not turn up in 2011, and states that, while pushing forward legislation that falls far short of those ideals in practice. “legislation will provide clarity for both public authorities and disabled people and”— The amendment is barely a paper’s thickness from in the event of a wider rollout— the stated positions on direct control of all parties. I hope that the Minister will look again at the provisions “would help ensure a universal and consistent application of the right to control principles”. that we are debating and conclude that the Bill does not quite deliver what the Government suggested that As currently drafted, the Bill does not achieve this it would. What we thought we would see following the aim. The terminology is rooted in the old ways of care White Paper, and what I and, I think, other noble planning and a culture in which professionals always Lords would like to see now that the reality of the Bill know best, rather than heralding the shift in power is presented to us, is for it to be quite clear that from the state towards disabled people which this the disabled person is placed right in the centre of the policy is supposed to be all about. arrangements affecting his or her life, and that the Under the current model of public service support, state will fall in with that rather than vice versa. I disabled people have to fight for everything they get suppose that the amendment is asking for the Government and are subject to a vast amount of costly and stressful to square a rather difficult circle. It is only the Government red tape. If you do not know your rights, public who can achieve that. authorities are not quick to fill you in. Many have missed out on direct payments, disabled facilities grants and the like because the system favours the well-informed, 3.45 pm the articulate and the belligerent. Lord Northbourne: Without having any great expertise on this particular issue, the basic issue is whether the Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: Belligerent? services should be provider or user-led. I think that we are seeking that they should be user-led. Baroness Wilkins: We cannot repeat this pattern under a right to control. It must be different. Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank the noble Baroness I know that much of the detail relating to for the amendment. I am pleased that it is her favourite implementation is being consulted on now, but I urge as it is the one on which I can respond most fully from Ministers to review and revise Clauses 33 and 34 so the Government’s point of view in the way that she has that they provide a more solid basis for transforming anticipated. I know that there has been engagement public service support. on these issues not only with officials, but with the Secretary of State and the Minister for Disabled People, Lord Skelmersdale: The noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, Jonathan Shaw. is considerably braver than I would dare to be when Amendments 164 and 165 would substantially referring to her noble friend. The Minister will not be restructure the section in Clause 33 dealing with the surprised to find these amendments, because he will core regulation-making powers. The amended version have seen them debated before in an unmodified form of the text sets out a more prescriptive structure to the in another place. The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, right to control process, which more explicitly mirrors has very sensibly taken the Commons Minister’s responses the self-directed support process, as identified by the to that debate and incorporated them in her amendment, noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. As well as making which I am very pleased to support. further consequential changes, Amendment 166 would GC 123 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 124 provide the power to create the right to appeal to an Turning to Amendments 164 and 165, I appreciate independent authority in the event of a refusal to the concerns expressed by noble Lords, and I agree make a direct payment. that it is vital that disabled people should find the right to control easy to access and use. The Government The Government have worked closely with disabled fully expect authorities to be proactive in informing people in developing the proposals for the right to people about the right to control and what it means to control. We want it to work and do not want to be them. We already have powers to ensure that this caught in the trap, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, happens, both by issuing guidance and, if necessary, said, of the professionals always knowing best and by imposing duties on authorities through regulations. people missing out because they are not as thrusting or able to make their way through systems as others The Government also recognise the importance of might do. I welcome the innovative approaches that ensuring that the disabled person will be at the centre we are developing to co-produce proposals. The of the right to control process. It is entirely right, as amendment illustrates that bringing the voice of disabled this amendment emphasises, that a disabled person people into the heart of government and co-producing should be able to tailor the support that they receive policy in no way impacts on the important independence and have a range of options about how it is delivered. of the views of disabled people This has always been our aim and this is what we intend to deliver through regulations. The Government are fully committed to the right to The right to control is not just about direct payments. control, as set out in the welfare reform White Paper. I The intention is for disabled people to have choice, accept that the powers in the Bill are broad, but that is and control, over the resources that the state makes to ensure delivery of our White Paper commitments available to meet agreed outcomes, whether these resources and to encourage local-level innovation. It will enable are taken in the form of a direct payment or in the us to draw on best practice experience from the right- form of services arranged by the public authority. to-control trailblazers in designing any strategy for Where a disabled person chooses to continue to receive wider rollout. As I said on the previous amendment, services, the Government will expect authorities to on Thursday 11 June the Government launched a respond flexibly to the individual’s needs and wishes national consultation on the right to control, which where reasonable and practicable. will help shape the regulations made under this section However, while I appreciate the principles behind of the Bill and help to ensure that the trailblazers fully this restructuring, I feel that it fails to capture some deliver on our commitments. vital aspects of our White Paper commitments. For example, this amendment does not reflect our commitment Starting with Amendment 166, I agree that there that the outcomes to be achieved through an individual’s should be an effective way for an individual to challenge support plan must be agreed in partnership between decisions taken by relevant authorities. We have always the authority and the individual. This approach was made it clear that the right to control places disabled clearly signalled in the White Paper and is central to people at the centre of the services they receive, and the right to control. Although the individual will have the ability to challenge decision-makers is one element choice and control over support, we need to recognise of this process. That is why we have included that the resources available have been voted for by Clause 33(3)(e). It enables the Secretary of State to Parliament for an agreed purpose. This approach ensures require an authority to review any decision that it that the authority will remain ultimately responsible takes, not only in relation to direct payments, but for the statutory outcome and will be able to provide more generally for the right to control. As noble Lords some further assistance if needed. This does not, will be aware, any decision made by a public authority however, reduce the individual disabled person’s role can also be subject to judicial review. That will include in deciding the specific details of the support they decisions made in relation to the right to control. want to receive. However, the creation of an independent authority It is also worth noting that any changes to the text as an appeal mechanism for the right to control would of the Bill would need to meet our existing commitment require significant public funding. For many relevant to protecting public expenditure. That was referred to services that could be included in the right to control, in more detail in another place. I am sure that noble there will already be review and appeal processes in Lords will accept that this is particularly important in place. There is no current evidence to suggest the need the current economic climate. to replace these mechanisms with an independent Although I would not be able to support Amendments appeals authority. At this stage, when decisions are 164 and 165 in their current form for the reasons I still to be taken regarding the funding streams that will have stated, I recognise the importance of ensuring be included, it would not be appropriate to specify in that the legislation clearly reflects our policy commitments the Bill an independent authority as the appeals route. and am sure that we will have made progress in this Once our consultation is completed, a decision will be respect when we return to the matter at a later stage. made regarding which services will be included in the So, with the assurance that we will return to this trailblazers. We will then work with the relevant authorities matter again after discussion, certainly with the noble to ensure that appropriate review mechanisms are in Baroness, Lady Campbell, I ask that the amendment place in line with Clause 33(3)(e). We will evaluate the be withdrawn. effectiveness of the arrangements made for reviewing right to control decisions in the trailblazers. I hope Lord Skelmersdale: I am not sure whether the Minister that these commitments in particular will reassure all was choosing his words particularly carefully when he noble Lords on this point. said, “I am sure we will return”. Does that mean led by GC 125 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 126

[LORD SKELMERSDALE] 3.57 pm him, or does it mean led by Members of the Committee, who by that stage will of course be Members of the Sitting suspended. House? 4.13 pm Lord McKenzie of Luton: We, in this context, are the Government. As in all of these things, I am very Amendment 167 happy to have a shared conversation. Moved by Lord Skelmersdale Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: I thank the noble 167: Clause 34, page 40, line 34, leave out subsection (3) Baronesses, Lady Thomas and Lady Wilkins, and the noble Lords, Lord Skelmersdale and Lord Northbourne, Lord Skelmersdale: Having had several interesting for their support for the amendment. It is very important and instructive debates about the merits of direct that we get this one right, because, for me, it is the control, the benefits that will accrue to the individuals definition of what we are about to do here. I am very affected and the extent to which funding streams pleased to hear the Minister say that it is something should be included, Amendments 167 and 169 deal that he and the department will wish to look at quite with the implementation of right to control schemes. deeply over the coming months before we come back, In a previous debate, we watched the Minister because I will come back to this one, because I feel so explain—perhaps “tussle with” would be a better strongly that the overarching principles which will phrase—the justification for excluding types of funding dictate how we take this policy forward are very important. on the grounds that different moneys come from different I understand that an independent mechanism for appeal departments. Regardless of where the money comes may have cost implications. However, I would like to from, however, one thing is true: we are not dealing be really reassured that there will be a clear and with new money. We have been debating who spends accessible way to appeal decisions that are made the money that is already swirling around government unfavourably when the disabled person wishes to take funds, and how. There is no suggestion that direct-control up a direct payment or have more control but does not payments would increase costs to the relevant departments. find that they are getting it. We will need to look at That is not what noble Lords have been calling for. those procedures again to ensure that they are clear. Indeed, it is not something that we could realistically On Amendments 164 and 165, again, we cannot expect to call for, as the Minister has just pointed out. simply rely on regulations and duties to take forward Therefore, when I read Clause 34(3), I thought of a this principle of the right to control. We know that question. Subsection (3) allows a local authority to local authorities can be quite lazy when it comes to refuse a request for direct payments if it would create their duty to implement regulations, duties and laws, an unreasonable burden on finances. I accept that and I want to ensure that in this Bill we have a clear there may be circumstances to warrant this, such as a indication of what a right to control is. Quite frankly, request to finance a service that would never reasonably it will be difficult for some local authorities to get their be provided by that particular authority. However, heads around this because they have spent the past what is there in this provision to prevent a local 100 years helping, doing good and caring for disabled authority refusing a reasonable request on the ground people, and it is not easy to make that transformative that it cannot be afforded, a point made just now by step in their heads. the noble Baroness, Lady Turner? I worry about a I think that the wording has to change. I am easy postcode lottery and that some local authorities, perhaps about what words we use as long as they lead to the one that has mismanaged its finances, may use direct same place. I look forward to coming back to this control as a fig leaf to cover its own failings by issue on Report and to seeing what we come up with in refusing reasonable requests on the inaccurate grounds the mean time. I thank the Minister and beg leave to that they cost too much. withdraw the amendment. 4.15 pm Amendment 164 withdrawn. Amendment 169, which changes the word “subsection” to “section”, does not do much by itself. I merely Amendment 165 not moved. wanted to bring into our debates the pilot schemes for direct control. I do not wish to add much to the point Clause 33 agreed. that I made in the debate on the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, which is that the Government have the luxury of the pilot scheme to Clause 34 : Provision that may be made about direct road test ideas. I urge the Minister to be bold, to payments uphold the raised expectations that the White Paper aroused, and to give real teeth to direct-control payments. Amendment 166 not moved. I suggest that, were he to do so, he would be pleasantly surprised with the results, an outcome that would The Deputy Chairman of Committees: It has been please almost everyone. For the Government, there is, suggested that this might be a convenient moment to in the words of President Roosevelt, break for 15 minutes. The Committee will recommence “nothing to fear but fear itself”. at 4.13 pm. I beg to move. GC 127 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 128

Baroness Turner of Camden: I support the amendment financial burden. In answer to the noble Baroness, in one respect. I said in a debate on a previous amendment, Lady Thomas, yes, it would have to be prescribed in referring to my own experience, that when I had regulations. It is our intention to introduce the right to sought assistance my local authority had informed me control to ensure that disabled people have more choice that the whole thing was “within available resources” and control over the services that they receive from the and that it did not have available resources. It looks to state. This legislation will enable us to meet that me as though the last line of this clause says the same commitment. thing in a different way, talking about whether it However, there is a balance to be struck. We must would, ensure that the introduction of the right to control “impose an unreasonable financial burden on the providing authority”. does not disadvantage those who are content with the Can the Minister explain whether this is the same as services they receive and do not wish to change them. “within available resources” or, if not, precisely what it The right to control is currently untested. If, for example, does mean? large numbers of requests for direct payments threatened existing services provided by the local authority, it Baroness Thomas of Winchester: Is the phrase “in would be essential that those who chose to continue to all the circumstances”going to be spelt out in regulations? use the service were not disadvantaged—I say to my noble friend Lady Turner that that is the thrust of the point that we seek to cover here—and that pressures Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful to the noble on public authorities did not become unsustainable. Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for giving me the opportunity to explain why the Bill is drafted as it is on this issue. I This clause therefore provides a safeguard for services will first respond to Amendment 169, which addresses and public finances. I reassure noble Lords that the the piloting powers contained in Clause 36. The clause is not to be used as a way of preventing disabled amendment seeks to extend the 36-month time limit in people exercising their right to control. Clause 34(3) subsection (1) to the whole clause. I reassure noble has been deliberately drafted to ensure that we can Lords that the 36-month time limit already applies to clarify in secondary legislation and guidance when the whole of Clause 36. this provision can be used. We do not want to be prescriptive in primary legislation because we want to I welcome the chance to discuss the piloting. We develop clear guidelines in collaboration with disabled prefer to describe it as “trailblazing”, as we think this people and public authorities. is an accurate description of what we are proposing. The right to control marks a significant innovation in The circumstances in which this clause would be the choice and control that disabled adults have over used will be carefully considered during consultation. their support and services. For this reason, it is right to We would expect any public authorities to provide test it in a number of trailblazing public authorities to compelling reasons for refusing a direct payment on inform the decision about wider rollout. The trailblazer these grounds and we will issue guidance to make that design will encourage disabled people, their organisations, clear. As I mentioned earlier, we are conducting a and the agencies and authorities involved, to work comprehensive evaluation of the trailblazers. This will together to develop innovative solutions to new challenges. include monitoring the use of this clause to ensure This will give us the opportunity to explore how the that it has the effect of guarding against unaffordable right to control will work on the ground. pressures while allowing effective delivery of services. I hope that the noble Lord will be reassured by the This clause gives flexibility over who is included in explanation of why that provision is in the Bill. the pilot and what timescales are involved. The trailblazers will commence during 2010 and it is our intention that the results from their operation should be available Lord Skelmersdale: The longer these debates go on, during 2012-13, but we have powers to run them for the more confused I am becoming. Clause 31(5) specifically up to 36 months. We may also want to run subsequent excludes community care services as defined by the pilots along the same or similar lines. Such flexibility National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990. will make a real difference, as it will help us to collect So, by definition, we are talking about different services. the robust evidence needed to inform a decision on However, the Minister keeps referring to local authority national rollout. services. Can he please explain which services are We are committed to consulting on how the trailblazers covered by this Bill and which are not? will operate. Consultation on the right to control was launched, as I said previously, on 11 June this year and Lord McKenzie of Luton: The structure of the Bill will run until the end of September. It will explore sets out the types of services and funding streams that questions such as what we need to do to ensure that would be envisaged in the trailblazers. We have debated disabled people and their organisations can play a full why community care services are excluded. It is not part in our trailblazers, what the implications are for that they should be excluded from being involved in services providers and how they can be assisted to play the right to control arrangements; it is simply that the their part in promoting choice and control in the right legislation is dealt with elsewhere. There has been a to control trailblazers. Answering these questions will debate about whether that is the appropriate formulation be an important test of how the right works in practice. that we should accept, but I do not think that anybody Amendment 167 would remove the obligation on is saying that community care services are excluded the Secretary of State to make regulations which from this new and innovative approach of giving the provide that an authority does not have to give a direct disabled the right to control the services that are payment if that payment would prove an unreasonable available to them. The precise funding streams for the GC 129 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 130

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] Lord McKenzie of Luton: I shall also speak to the services that will be included will have to be developed other government amendments in the group. Since in relation to, and under, the trailblazers to test how introducing the Bill my ministerial colleagues and they work and what can be made to work. That would officials have continued to work with the devolved clearly include local authority services. Administrations. Amendments 170 to 174 will ensure that Welsh Lord Skelmersdale: I know, because we were told Ministers will have the power to make secondary earlier, that the Minister does not like being pinned legislation to bring devolved funding streams and down, but can he please give an example of a single services within the scope of the right to control. The service that is covered by the Bill but is not covered by right to control could impact on a number of devolved local authority social services funds? areas given the breadth of the definition of “relevant service” in Clause 31. These could include further Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am happy to be pinned education, higher education, training and skills down on this—or I think I am. The Government have programmes, housing in relation to living independently committed to include in trailblazers disability employment and services that enable disabled people to overcome services and independent living funds. We are also barriers to participation in society. It has always been exploring including housing support for disabled people our intention that the provisions in the Bill reflect the and the disabled facilities grants arrangements. Those devolution settlement. These amendments are therefore are some of the services that could be included. technical to ensure that this intention is accurately reflected in the Bill. At present, the drafting of Clause 37 would mean Lord Skelmersdale: At last it is becoming clearer in, that Welsh Ministers will have power to make regulations as I said earlier, my somewhat confused mind. I am under Clause 33 only if the National Assembly for extremely grateful to the Minister. Wales has legislative competence in that policy area. The provision is inconsistent with the current devolution Lord Skelmersdale: At last it is becoming clearer in settlement in Wales. The National Assembly’s legislative my confused mind, to which I referred earlier. I suspect competence is being increased incrementally and it that Amendment 169 depends on the draftsman. I currently does not have competence to legislate in a know many draftsmen who would have used the word number of areas where Welsh Ministers have executive “section” at the beginning and drafted the rest of the competence. When both Ministers of the Crown and clause slightly differently. Looking carefully at the Welsh Ministers have functions in relation to a particular clause, I see that it all refers to subsection (1), so in service, both will be in a position to make right-to-control another draftsman’s mind, the word “subsection” would regulations. be perfectly appropriate. The amendments are therefore necessary to ensure On Amendment 167, I am extremely grateful to the that regulation-making powers are afforded to Welsh Minister. I shall have to study carefully what he has Ministers that relate to their executive competence said, including the additional information on which I and therefore reflect the devolution settlement. I beg pinned him down, and I will consider that before we to move. reach the next stage. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Lord Skelmersdale: All social security law applies across the whole of the United Kingdom, even though individual bits of legislation might be slightly different Amendment 167 withdrawn. in the various parts thereof. I can only assume that an eagle-eyed official spotted that the Bill would be pretty Amendment 168 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled ineffective in Wales if the changes were not made, so List. the noble Lords who want to see the reforms work in the Principality—I firmly include myself in that number— Clause 34 agreed. owe a vote of thanks. Can we be satisfied that Scotland is fully covered? Clause 35 agreed. Lord McKenzie of Luton: Yes. The amendment reflects the difference in the state of devolution between Clause 36 : Pilot schemes Scotland and Wales. Legislative competence is not complete in respect of the Assembly, but Welsh Ministers Amendment 169 not moved. have executive competence. That has been picked up in the Amendments. The same situation does not pertain Clause 36 agreed. in Scotland. Amendment 170 agreed. Clause 37 : The appropriate authority by which regulations under section 33 are made Amendments 171 to 174 Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton Amendment 170 171: Clause 37, page 42, line 26, at end insert— Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton “(c) in relation to provision that does not fall within paragraph (b) and relates to relevant services in Wales 170: Clause 37, page 42, line 21, leave out “and” with respect to which functions are exercisable— GC 131 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 132

(i) by a Minister of the Crown, and seem unfair. There is a real need, in practical terms, in (ii) by the Welsh Ministers, the First Minister or the order to facilitate the collection of child maintenance, Counsel General, to try to change that mindset. the Secretary of State or the Welsh Ministers are the There is an urgent need to persuade all men that appropriate authority, and they share equally with the potential mother the (d) in relation to provision that does not fall within responsibility for the outcomes of unprotected sex. paragraph (b) or (c) and relates to relevant services in They need to understand clearly that if the woman has Wales with respect to which functions are exercisable by the Welsh Ministers, the First Minister or the Counsel a child, they will also be responsible for the financial General, the Welsh Ministers are the appropriate maintenance of that child until it reaches the age of authority.” 16, and they need to understand why. 172: Clause 37, page 42, line 27, after “33” insert— If one wants to change a mindset, it is now widely “(a)” accepted that two things have to be done. First, one must convince the majority of the public that there are 173: Clause 37, page 42, line 28, at end insert “and good reasons for the change and, secondly, one must (b) does not include power to make provision— follow up with a degree of legal enforcement. In the (i) removing or modifying any function of the Welsh case of secondary smoking, this Government did a Ministers, the First Minister or the Counsel wonderful job using both these levers successfully to General, or achieve their objective. However, the case of child (ii) conferring or imposing any function on the Welsh maintenance is not quite the same. Not enough effort Ministers, the First Minister or the Counsel General. has been put into building public consensus about the responsibilities of the father. The first step in doing ( ) Any power of the Welsh Ministers to make regulations under section 33 by virtue of subsection (2)(c) or (d) does not this must be to define as clearly as possible the include power to make provision— responsibilities of the father and of the father and the (a) removing or modifying any function of a Minister of the mother if they bring a child into the world. The Child Crown, or Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008 lays on (b) conferring or imposing any function on a Minister of the commission set up by that Act a duty to take steps the Crown.” to raise awareness among parents of the importance of taking responsibility for the maintenance of their 174: Clause 37, page 42, line 30, at end insert— children. I know it is an unfair question to ask the ““the Counsel General” means the Counsel General to the Minister, so perhaps he could write to me about what Welsh Assembly Government; has been done about that obligation. “the First Minister” means the First Minister for Wales; “Minister of the Crown” includes the Treasury.” My amendment, by implication, asks two questions: first, what does the current law say about the Amendments 171 to 174 agreed. responsibilities of a man towards any child he fathers and how are those responsibilities shared with the Clause 37, as amended, agreed. mother? Secondly, and more specifically, if a father pays his maintenance regularly, what residual obligations, 4.30 pm if any, does he have towards the child and what obligations in relation to the child remain with the Clauses 38 to 41 agreed. mother? For example, who is responsible for the emotional, social and moral guidance of the child? Are these obligations set out clearly anywhere so that mothers Amendment 174ZA and fathers can understand them? I think that question needs a good deal of research to answer, and I shall be Moved by Lord Northbourne happy if the Minister wants to write to me about it. 174ZA: Before Clause 42, insert the following new Clause— However, it is important to have clear answers to these “Parental responsibility questions and agreed policies so that they can be (1) The Child Support Act 1991 (c. 48) is amended as follows. taught in schools. They can be taught to young people (2) In section 1(1) for “is responsible for maintaining him” in the family and in a variety of settings so that the substitute “has joint and several responsibility for his maintenance responsibilities of men and boys in fathering children and joint responsibility for his wellbeing”.” are more clearly understood and they no longer assume that it is the responsibility of the girl alone to ensure Lord Northbourne: We now turn to the aspects of that she does not get pregnant. In a civilised society the Bill that relate to child maintenance. Part 3 is with the availability of effective contraception for all about improving the success rate in collecting child who want it, is there any reason why there should be maintenance. This probing amendment is about success unwanted children? I beg to move. in collecting child maintenance in the context of the responsibilities of fathers. The Child Support Act Lord Skelmersdale: During the past four weeks, and 1991 is still seen by many men as profoundly unfair. indeed at Second Reading, I felt the need to speak Many men still believe that fathering a child is a several times about rights and responsibilities. It is macho achievement, a scalp, a notch on the belt that hardly surprising, then, that I support the noble Lord, does not carry with it any obligation towards the Lord Northbourne, in his endeavour to make it crystal child. Other fathers complain that the mother misled clear that it is the responsibility—the duty, if you them about contraception. Some have other excuses like—of both parents to look after the needs of any that, to them, make the collection of child maintenance children that they bear, whether in or out of wedlock. GC 133 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 134

[LORD SKELMERSDALE] and therefore intend to make express provision in the Indeed, as the noble Lord said, this is the whole Bill that the well-being of the child or children must be philosophy behind the Child Support Act, which, taken into account when a jobseeker’s agreement or although altered several times by this Government, action plan is drawn up with a parent. was introduced and enacted by my party in 1991. We have had also had considerable debate on the Although that Act is 99 per cent directed at the factors that decision-makers should consider when financial security of the child, it covers situations determining whether there is good cause for failing to where the non-resident parent has a child living with undertake mandatory activity. Noble Lords are aware him from time to time. that these factors are set out in regulations. We now The Salvation Army recently published a report intend to amend the Bill to enshrine in primary legislation entitled The Seeds of Exclusion. As yet, I have read that decision-makers must consider the availability of only the executive summary.It has a couple of paragraphs childcare, when the claimant is a parent, and the headed “Childhood experiences”, which point out claimant has a health condition or disability. This is that negative experiences in childhood have a significant our current policy and practice, but it will now be set bearing on experiences in adulthood. I accept that it is out in primary legislation. possible that single parents will have an ameliorating We had a very useful debate on victims of domestic effect on that, but how much better would it be if both violence, when the noble Baronesses, Lady Thomas parents were involved, even if one of them were on a and Lady Kennedy, made powerful contributions. The part-time basis. However, the best advice that I have Secretary of State and I are very sympathetic to these ever heard given to young people was by the late arguments, and wish to include in the Bill that parents Reverend Lord Soper. At the end of an “any questions” who are in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance and are session in a school, the members of the panel were victims, or in fear, of domestic violence should be asked what advice they would give the audience. He entitled to continue to receive jobseeker’s allowance replied, “Remember who your parents are”, by which without the job-seeking conditionality for a period of he meant, “Your parents’ standards should be your three months. In short, they can have a three-month own”. Perhaps he meant that but I could, of course, exemption from conditionality. read it rather more cynically as, “Do you really want to grow up like them?”. The Bill is trying to change the There has been some confusion about our plans for standards of those affected by it in various respects. lone parents with a youngest child aged seven and Having both parents to look at and, it is hoped, to above. Last November we changed regulations so that look up to is a worthy ambition and so I am right this group would no longer be entitled to income behind the amendment. support. Instead they will have to claim either jobseeker’s allowance or employment and support allowance, Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank the noble Lord, depending on their circumstances. The Bill makes no Lord Northbourne, for this amendment. With the change to this position but it seems that there may be leave of the Committee, perhaps I may briefly return some concern that we plan to extend jobseeker’s allowance to some matters that we debated earlier, one of which conditionality to lone parents with younger children. I is certainly relevant to the amendment before us. give noble Lords a categorical assurance that this is not our intention. We will therefore amend the Bill to During our debates over the past few weeks, several make it clear in primary legislation that lone parents issues have been raised, with resonance with discussions and partners with a youngest child aged below seven in another place, around the conditionality requirements will not be required to seek or take work. This is our for parents and the safeguards that we are providing commitment, and the Bill will now make it clear. for this group and for those with health conditions or disabilities. There have been some lengthy and important As we have discussed, we plan to introduce the debates, with valuable contributions made by noble progression-to-work pathfinders for those lone parents Lords from all sides. We have been listening to and with a youngest child aged three to six. Concerns have carefully considering those contributions. been expressed that, in the future, this policy may be extended and lone parents of very young children We are conscious that, to be successful, our policies could be required to undertake work-related activity need to be perceived by lone parents as positive and and may be sanctioned for failure to comply. We will supportive. As noble Lords have eloquently made therefore put in the Bill that no lone parent with a clear in previous sessions, this is not always the case child aged below three will be subject to mandatory and there remains fear about our policies and about work-related activity. They will still be able to volunteer how people may be treated in reality. The Secretary of for such activity, though, and receive appropriate support. State and I have been struck by the powerful arguments put forward by noble Lords and stakeholder groups These amendments confirm existing government that more reassurance needs to be given in the Bill. As policy by putting it into primary legislation. We have such, I am pleased to inform the Committee that we always made it clear that the measures will be implemented intend to introduce a number of government amendments in a way that supports families and children. These on Report. safeguards give parents reassurance that Governments We have had an extremely important debate about will not be able to make changes to this landmark Bill the need for advisers to take into account the well-being without going back to Parliament. of the child when they discuss return-to-work activity I hope that noble Lords will welcome this statement with parents. In particular, I pay tribute to the contribution and the proposed amendments, which we will table in of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, here. We are advance of Report. I hope to be able to meet noble fully persuaded of the importance of this approach Lords in advance of Report to discuss them in more GC 135 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 136 detail. I will also write to all noble Lords who have This is the function of the commission’s Child spoken on the Bill, giving them the text of this statement, Maintenance Options service. which I believe is available here today. I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for straying a little wider In summary, the commission’s functions are clearly than the amendment, but I thought it a useful opportunity and deliberately built around the need to secure payments to put on the record some things that we have been of child maintenance. Of course, I recognise and fully thinking about in recent days. I thank noble Lords for support the fundamental premise that parental all their contributions, which have been helpful. responsibility does not stop with financial commitments alone. However, I do not believe that the Child Support Lord Skelmersdale: I am sure that the Minister is Act is the right legislation to contain a broader statement about to turn to this particular amendment, but every on parental responsibility or that the commission Member of the Committee, whether in this Room or would be the right body to pursue this broader agenda. not, will appreciate that the Minister has made a most While I recognise that the amendment being proposed important statement, showing that the Government would not necessarily require the commission to enforce have indeed listened and, I hope, learnt from the this wider duty, the fact that it would be contained discussions that we had, not least on Clause 2. It will within the Child Support Act may suggest that this is repay very careful study, which we will all give it—or I the case. certainly will. On the face of it, what the Minister now proposes is much closer than what my party originally While the proper place for such legislation would be proposed, from which ideas on much of the formulation the Children Act 1989, which already contains a definition of the Bill arose. So I am very grateful for what he has of parental responsibility—I know the noble Lord is just said. aware of this from the debates we had both in relation to the Child Maintenance and Other Payments Bill 4.45 pm and the Children and Young Person’s Act 2008—the Government does not favour the legislative approach Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful for the in any event. However, that does not mean that the noble Lord’s support for the statement. I shall perhaps link between child maintenance payments and other leave aside the extent to which it picks up the policy aspects of parental responsibility is ignored. Part of that the noble Lord’s party has proposed. I do not the role of the Child Maintenance Options service is think that it is the occasion to do that. If we have an to guide parents towards specialist organisations that agreement on the direction, that is a good outcome. can help with other aspects of parental responsibility. I turn to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Furthermore, Section 7 of the 2008 Act gives the Northbourne, which seeks to modify the duty of parents commission power to enter into arrangements with to maintain their child, as defined in Section 1 of the other agencies that may have similar issues. Child Support Act 1991, so that parents of a qualifying child should make provision for the well-being of their In addition, the commission is currently conducting children, alongside the need to provide financial support. research with parents to establish what factors encourage Some noble Lords present today will recall that the appropriate parental behaviour. The findings will be issue of parental responsibility was discussed at length used to deliver marketing and communication campaigns during the passage of the Child Maintenance and that promote parents’ awareness of the importance of Other Payments Act 2008. We debated a number of taking responsibility for maintaining their children. amendments, which would have required the Child This approach is detailed in the commission’s corporate Maintenance and Enforcement Commission to promote plan, which is due to run until the end of the 2011-2012 the full responsibilities of parenthood, including matters financial year, a copy of which I will make available to relating to health development and welfare. the noble Lord. The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, was instrumental The noble Lord asked about Section 4 of the 2008 in ensuring that these important issues were debated, Act and how the commission is promoting parental and while I appreciate the sentiment behind the responsibility. In addition to the planned research and amendment before us today, I am sure he will not be resultant marketing and communications campaigns, surprised to hear that the Government have not changed which I have already mentioned, the commission will their mind on that and therefore I am unable to accept work alongside other government departments, agencies, the amendment. Before I set out why, for the benefit of trusted intermediary and specialist advisory organisations the Committee I should like to restate the role of the that interact with families, children and separated Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission and parents. This will be done with the aim of promoting the statutory objectives by which it operates. The the benefits of maintenance arrangements and to build noble Lord referred to these. awareness and demand for the help available through Section 2 of the 2008 Act makes it clear that the the Child Maintenance Options service. Perhaps I may commission must maximise the number of effective say that that service was introduced when we removed maintenance arrangements in place between compulsion to use the state maintenance service on separated parents. Furthermore, as set out in parents with care who claimed benefits. In a sense, it is Sections 4 and 5, the commission must take whatever early days yet, but I am more than happy to write to steps it deems appropriate to promote financial noble Lords to give them an update on how that is responsibility for children among parents, and to progressing. I had some data when we were debating provide them with information and guidance about regulations last night, but they are in another file. I how maintenance arrangements can be established. hope that with those reassurances the noble Lord will GC 137 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 138

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] to the court and, if such a right of appeal is exercised, accept that the amendment is not in the right place the disqualification would be suspended while the here, but I am sure that we will have another go at the appeal is determined. matter. The clause begs two questions: first, whether the sanction power is one that the Executive rather than Lord Northbourne: After such a deluge of good the court should exercise, and secondly, whether it is news, I would have given anything to the noble Lord. I really a practical and cost-effective way in which to fully accept the Government’s position that it is only proceed. Your Lordships’ Select Committee, including the financial aspects of parental responsibility that those of us who have spent decades dealing with they are prepared to address at the moment. In that constituency cases concerning child maintenance—the context, will the noble Lord consider the idea, which is noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has dealt with them in the only a suggestion, that the commission should be courts—yields to nobody in its concern for those encouraged to contribute to the discussions that are affected, and will require a convincing reply to questions now going on about the PSHE curriculum? The social about whether the provisions will improve or diminish element of the PSHE curriculum could be a relevant the rights of those who are potentially affected. place in which to draw the attention of young people Amendment 174E reflects the committee’s further to the responsibilities of fathers. recommendations. The Bill gives the court the power to hear an appeal against the commission’s decision. If Lord McKenzie of Luton: I can certainly bring that the amendments were accepted, the Bill would empower issue to the attention of the commission. the courts to make both the original decision and hear any subsequent appeal. Amendment 174E addresses the committee’s other recommendations in paragraph 10 Lord Northbourne: I beg leave to withdraw the of the report. Section 111 of the Magistrates’ Courts amendment. Act 1980 already provides for appeals to the High Court that could be used in the context of the Amendment 174ZA withdrawn. circumstances covered by the Bill. Amendment 174B addresses the recommendation in paragraph 11 of Clause 42 : Disqualification for holding etc. driving your Lordships’ committee’s report that if, contrary to licence or travel authorisation the committee’s view, the commission is to be given administrative powers to remove people’s passports, that power should be exercised only by officials of Amendment 174A appropriate seniority. Moved by Lord Goodlad Schedule 5 contains consequential amendments to Clause 42. Your Lordships’ Select Committee will 174A: Clause 42, page 44, line 6, leave out paragraph (a) and propose amendments to Schedule 5 if and when it is insert— appropriate during the further proceedings on the Bill. “(a) in subsection (1), after “section” insert “(referred to in Amendment 174G is pursuant to your Lordships’ this section and sections 39C to 39F as a “disqualification order”)”,” committee’s recommendation that if, contrary to our recommendations, the commission were to be given administrative powers to remove passports, the powers Lord Goodlad: The amendments are tabled in my to make disqualification orders cannot be contracted name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and out to private body or other people. If contrary to were unanimously agreed by Members of the Constitution your Lordships’ committee’s recommendations and, I Committee, so are therefore Select Committee venture to think, that of your Lordships’ House, amendments. administrative power is created for the commission to Amendments 174A, 174C and 174D relate to the remove passports, it should be accompanied by an recommendation in paragraph 10 of the report on the amendment to Section 8(1) of the Child Maintenance Bill, published on 23 April, that the commission should and Other Payments Act 2008 to exclude the imposition have to apply to the court for an order to disqualify a of sanction powers from those functions of the person from holding or obtaining a driving licence, commission that may be contracted out. travel authorisation, or both, rather than the commission In the view of your Lordships’ Select Committee, it being able to make the order. The amendments to the would not be constitutionally appropriate for a third 1991 Act stipulate that the order-making powers are party or private body to have decision-making power with the court, and accordingly, Section 39(1) of the over who may not leave the United Kingdom. That is 1991 Act would need little, if any amendment. a matter for the courts. I beg to move. The committee expressed concern that an unintended change to the constitution could occur whereby the Lord Pannick: I strongly support what has been Executive would acquire powers to impose sanctions said by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad. I apologise to and punishments on people in a way that is more him and to noble Lords for not being here at the properly exercised by the courts rather than civil servants. commencement of his speech. These amendments raise It is the view of the Select Committee that suspending an issue of profound constitutional importance. As a person’s right to hold a passport should be the the Constitution Committee, of which I am a member, responsibility of judges, not civil servants. Under the has pointed out, the Executive is acquiring ever more Bill’s provisions, a person disqualified by the commission frequently powers to impose sanctions on citizens and from holding a passport would have a right to appeal punish them without having to take matters before the GC 139 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 140 court. I take the view that it is no answer to the taking the CSA to remove those pieces of travel authorisation of those powers that a right of appeal to a court administratively without any reference to the courts. It against the imposition of the sanction is given, not was also to be possible for that to be contracted out least because some people who are the subject of these under Clause 8. powers, whose passports are taken away from them, YourLordships’ Constitution Committee produced may be deterred from appealing to the court by the a report that reminded the House that the right to exercise of the administrative sanction. They may be leave and return to one’s country is recognised as a deterred by the cost, the inconvenience and, perhaps fundamental right in international law. It therefore most importantly, by the formality of the exercise of followed that a civil servant or private sector employee an administrative sanction against them. should not be given the power to remove a person’s Why is this power needed at all? Is it simply a travel documents without reference to a court of law. matter of administrative convenience, as I suspect? If To cut my story short, the Government did a volte face there is some more deep-rooted issue behind it, what is and moved an amendment on the second day of it? Why is it not, as in times gone by, enough that the Report to return to the status quo ante—in other state has a power to go to a court or a tribunal to seek words, the sanction of a removal of travel authorisations the sanction against the individual? That would not be by the courts. To my surprise, that was a totally expensive, difficult or time-consuming, or involve any voluntary act on behalf of the Government; no Division deterrent to the state with all the resources it has was required. But this Government will not take this available to it. This is a matter of profound constitutional House’s clear wish for an answer for very long. The importance. I ask the Government to think again constant pressure for 42 days’ detention without trial about it. for suspects of terrorism is a case in point. I have lost count of the number of times they have tried to put Baroness Thomas of Winchester: I have very little to that into law. Is it four, five, six or seven? I do not add to what the noble Lords, Lord Goodlad and Lord know. Pannick, have said, except to support the amendments But I digress. The Bill does something rather different most strongly. My noble friend Lord Kirkwood, who to the Child Maintenance and Other Payments Bill, much regrets that he cannot be here this afternoon, now an Act, in respect of travel authorisation. It likened the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, to a cavalry returns the Government’s wish for CMEC to have the charging over a hill into the government ranks. His power to remove driving licences or travel authorisation, Constitution Committee has produced an admirably or both, administratively, in part for a trial period. If succinct and unequivocal report, which poses the central the trial is unsuccessful in persuading the absent parent question to this part of the Bill—whether the power of to pay up, there is a sunset provision, returning to the sanctions is one that the Executive rather than a court position of doing this through the courts. If, however, should be allowed to exercise. We agree strongly with the trial—or pilot, I should call it—is successful, an the Constitution Committee’s answer to that. order must be made to continue it. 5pm I said at Second Reading that my party was prepared Perhaps I might quote the comments of the noble to give these pilots for driving licences a go to see Lord, Lord Goodlad from last year, when the Minister whether they had the desired effect of money being changed his mind and agreed with the Constitution given up for the upbringing of the child. I do not resile Committee. He said, and his words were prophetic: from that statement. However, I note that your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, so ably chaired by my noble “I note that he reserves the right to come back with future friend Lord Goodlad, does not resile from its position legislation and, of course, no Parliament can bind its successors. We will scrutinise any proposals that come forward pursuant to either—namely, that the Executive should not be allowed that intention with the same rigour”.—[Official Report, 13/5/08; such power of sanction. I am tempted to agree with col. 964.] the committee, but there are two ways in which to deal He then supported the amendment, which of course with this problem. Your Lordships’ Constitution changed the position. Now that it has come back, I Committee has chosen one way, which is to return expect that the Minister will say that it is because of more or less to the status quo ante. In the next section the number of payments that are still not coming of the amendments, I shall produce another way in forward. However, that does not make it right, and we which to deal with this, which with a bit of luck will be strongly support the amendments coming from the slightly more acceptable to the Government. Constitution Committee. I return to the amendments of my noble friend Lord Goodlad. My noble friend wants a decision to Lord Skelmersdale: Many Members of this Committee withdraw these authorisations to be made at a senior will remember the Child Maintenance and Other level within CMEC—namely, by a senior director. I Payments Bill of 2007 very well indeed—including my like this idea and could easily incorporate it into my noble friend Lord Goodlad, who moved a similar set own formulation in my next group of amendments. It of amendments in discussions on that Bill. Clause 25 seems that his say-so would set the withdrawal proceedings of that Bill changed the long-standing arrangement in motion in the courts by virtue of, as I understand it, whereby the CSA had to apply to the courts for the Amendments 174C and 174D. If the courts are dealing ultimate sanction of the removal of driving licences, with the matter, my noble friend sees no need for an identity cards and passports from absent parents who appeals mechanism once the court order has been refuse to pay their dues in respect of their child or made, as presumably the normal appeals system through children to the parent with care. The clause allowed higher and higher courts would operate. This appeals GC 141 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 142

[LORD SKELMERSDALE] First, the provisions are drawn such that the mechanism is therefore disapplied by Amendment 174E. commission may make a disqualification order only if My noble friend also dislikes an award of costs being it can be shown that the non-resident parent has either made when a court proceeding occurs. That must be wilfully refused or culpably neglected to pay the child the purpose of Amendment 174F. His new clause is maintenance for which he or she is liable. I shall refer consequential. to that as the “wilful and culpable test”. The second I congratulate my noble friend on his very point is that these powers are not intended to act as a comprehensive series of amendments, which, taken punishment for non-payment. Along with other powers together, return us, as I said, to the status quo ante. I, already available to the commission, a disqualification however, have a rather different proposal, which will order has only one purpose: to encourage the liable come up in the next series of amendments and which I person to pay the outstanding child maintenance debt expect the Government to find more acceptable—if, that he or she owes. that is, they find any changes acceptable. So it may be argued, as the Constitution Committee did, that, Lord McKenzie of Luton: I start by thanking the “to impose sanctions and punish people”, noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, for this amendment. I should fall within the remit of the courts and not the think that the debate we are going to have is likely to executive. However, it does not follow that a decision be pretty much a re-run of the debate that we had last to make a disqualification order such as we are debating year. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, has today should not be made by the executive body travelled that fine line by staying with his Front Bench whose very purpose is to ensure that parents who live in the other place, which, I believe, has changed its apart from their children continue to make a fair position on this as well. contribution to their upbringing. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, that the The wilful and culpable test means that the commission Government did not change their mind on the cannot make a disqualification order on a whim. It previous occasion; the reality was that it was an issue means that before such an order can be made there that we conceded in wrapping up one or two other must be proper consideration of the circumstances of outstanding issues in relation to the Bill. That the case, the non-resident parent must have accrued a happens sometimes with legislation. We believe that child maintenance debt over a period of time, and the the administrative arrangements are right now and we commission must first have attempted to use its other believe that they were right then, but it was not a collection and enforcement powers to no avail, some matter that we pressed or an issue that we were of which I am bound to say operate by administrative prepared to let go last time in the context of other procedures as we were debating last night. Those things that needed to be settled. powers are extensive and include, for example, the ability to deduct money direct from earnings or from a Lord Skelmersdale: Before the Minister continues, bank account. perhaps I may tell him very firmly that the Front Therefore, a decision to make a disqualification Bench in the Conservative Party, whether in this House order may be made only after the commission has or another place, is totally seamless. We speak with made every effort to ensure that child maintenance is one voice and have one view. paid and when, despite all its efforts, the non-resident parent has actively avoided his or her responsibilities and the children and parent with care are left wanting. Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am sure that that is right. Amendments 174A and 174C to 174F remove I have said that a disqualification order is not a from the commission the power to make an order punishment measure. To support that further, the Bill disqualifying a liable person from holding or obtaining ensures that a non-resident parent facing the imposition a travel authorisation—usually a passport—or a driving of such an order has a straightforward means to avoid licence. Instead, those powers would be held by the it by paying the child maintenance debt owed or courts. agreeing and sticking to a satisfactory payment arrangement with the commission. By the same means, I am aware—it has already been cited—that on a non-resident parent against whom an order is made 23 April this year the Select Committee on the can equally ensure that it is rapidly lifted. Constitution published a report expressing the opinion that it is “constitutionally unsatisfactory” for the I am also convinced that when a court decides to commission to have that power. I am bound to say to impose a sanction, such as a disqualification order, it the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that I think that that is does so in the light of its prior dealings with the liable a lesser charge than “profoundly constitutionally person—in other words, following conviction for an significant”, which was the noble Lord’s phrase. offence. In the case of a non-resident parent who owes The noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, is, of course, the child maintenance debt, the commission is best placed chairman of the Constitution Committee and, if I to make those decisions. Its experience of prior dealings may say so, an extremely distinguished one at that. with the non-resident parent means that it is best However, on this occasion, I find that I cannot agree qualified to decide whether the non-resident parent’s with his position or that of the committee that he so actions meet the wilful and culpable test. expertly chairs. I draw that conclusion for a number of When the commission makes such decisions, there reasons, starting with two very important points relating are further safeguards. The commission is required to to these powers as they stand in the Bill. consider the impact on any children affected by a GC 143 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 144 decision to make a disqualification order, and it must welfare of any child affected by the decision. Finally, also consider the impact of a disqualification order on there is a full and extensive right of appeal to a court the non-resident parent’s ability to earn a living. There against a disqualification order. is one final safeguard. Clause 42 makes provision to Therefore, I believe that the existing framework is ensure that there is a robust and proper right of appeal sufficient to ensure that the decision-maker is of the against a decision by the commission to make a appropriate seniority in every case, and I believe that, disqualification order. If an appeal is lodged, the combined with the additional safeguards that we have order cannot come into effect until it has been dealt provided, that will ensure the appropriate level of with by a magistrate or a sheriff. protection for the liable person. Currently, the commission has the power to make Amendment 174G inserts a new clause that would an application to the court for commitment to prison amend the Child Maintenance and Other Payments or disqualification from driving, as the court considers Act 2008 so as to ensure that the power to make a appropriate. Although data are limited, there is evidence disqualification order could not be exercised by another that a significant proportion of non-resident parents person on the commission’s behalf. By “disqualification in these cases do not bother to attend the court hearing. order”, I mean, of course, an order preventing the Under the provisions we are debating today, the onus liable person holding or obtaining a travel authorisation will fall on the non-resident parents to decide whether or driving licence. they want their day in court, which they will get by Section 8 of the 2008 Act enables the commission appealing the order. That system will mean that the to authorise any person to exercise any of its functions court’s time is used more efficiently than it is currently, in whole or in part. Such authorisation may be subject and therefore it will better enable the commission to to conditions, perhaps for a limited time, and may be focus its efforts to get more money to children. revoked by the commission at any time. Anything Amendment 174B would require an executive director done, or omitted to be done, under such an authorisation of the commission—if it were to proceed—to approve is treated as if the function had been exercised by the the making of any disqualification order in relation to commission. Therefore, in effect, Section 8, as has holding or obtaining a travel authorisation or a driving been identified, allows the commission to contract out licence. any of its functions to a third party. I understand the concern of the noble Lord, Lord However, the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, is absolutely Goodlad, to ensure that a decision to make a right that a decision to make a disqualification order is disqualification order should not be taken lightly. I serious and should not be taken lightly. Indeed, the agree with him that in order to ensure that is so the Bill and other relevant legislation provide that the decision-maker should be a person with the appropriate commission cannot do so without ensuring that certain level of seniority. That must be right. However, with conditions are met and that particular questions are respect to the amendment, I do not consider that it is considered. I can assure all noble Lords that a decision either necessary or appropriate for the decision-maker’s to make a disqualification order will be taken only by seniority to be specified in the Bill. the commission and will not be contracted out under Parliament has decided that the executive body the provisions of Section 8. responsible for operating the statutory maintenance I therefore urge the noble Lords not to press their scheme in Great Britain should be a non-departmental amendments. I am conscious that what I have just said public body. While there was much debate over the is probably exactly the debate that we had a year ago, detail of the Child Maintenance and Other Payments but it is the Government’s position, which I believe to Bill, there was broad support for that particular element be right. At the end of the day, the Bill is about of the reforms. The principle of this amendment is effective mechanisms for getting payments to children, fundamentally contrary to that approach. It would particularly in cases where people who have the resources unreasonably constrain the commission’s ability to to make them simply refuse to do so. organise its work and its decision-making processes as it considers appropriate. Of course, the commission does not have an entirely Lord Pannick: I am grateful to the Minister for his free hand in that respect. It is obliged to ensure that all full reply.He told us that it is not a matter of punishment, of its administrative functions are operated fairly and but of encouraging the relevant parent to pay up. consistently and in accordance with human rights Taking away people’s right to travel abroad and to legislation. That, of course, includes the powers to drive will inevitably be seen by them and the community make disqualification orders. In that respect, the at large as very much a punishment for their conduct. commission will be held to account by the Government The difficulty with arguing that such measures are and the courts in respect of the way it operates these appropriate so long as there are sufficient safeguards—in and other powers. the sense that decisions are taken by officials of an appropriately senior level, are taken only by reference to appropriate criteria, such as wilful misconduct, and 5.15 pm only when they think it appropriate—is that exactly Furthermore, a number of safeguards are already the same argument could be applied to any other provided by the legislation. The commission must sanction or order that Ministers think it appropriate consider the impact of the decision on the non-resident to confer on an administrative body; for example, a parent’s ability to earn a living. It must assess whether curfew order or something of the sort. Why not allow the non-resident parent has met the wilful and culpable administrative bodies to impose those orders? This test, and it must consider, as I said a moment ago, the Government are taking us down a very slippery slope GC 145 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 146

[LORD PANNICK] Lord Goodlad: To follow what the noble Lord, Lord in arguing that, for reasons essentially of convenience, Pannick, said, I am grateful to the Minister for his it should be appropriate to confer on an administrative customary courtesy and thoroughness in going through body the right to impose what will be regarded by these issues, but, as he pointed out, we are addressing citizens as very painful sanctions. I have heard nothing issues that were already rehearsed and determined last today— year in the present Parliament, and it is bizarre that we are revisiting them now. The Select Committee will examine with great care what the Minister and my Lord McKenzie of Luton: If the noble Lord will noble friend Lord Skelmersdale have said to see whether permit me, the key issue here, whatever description we it is consistent with what has been said before and with put on it—he said that people would see this as a the European Convention on Human Rights. punishment—is that we are dealing with situations where people are known to have the resources and have had plenty of opportunities to fulfil their Lord McKenzie of Luton: Before the noble Lord commitments but wilfully refuse to do so. It is entirely finally withdraws the amendment, I want to ensure within their hands to deal with that and relieve themselves that I have clearly on the record the issue of why the of the consequence of an order. To describe that as administrative system is more effective and appropriate “punishment” seems, with respect, to be a little bizarre. in these circumstances. Where the court deals with It is entirely within the individual’s own control to travel restrictions, it does so in the light of its prior relieve him or herself of this disqualification. dealings with an individual who has been convicted of an offence. In the case of defaulting non-resident parents, I suggest that the commission is arguably Lord Northbourne: Why is this then not a simple better placed to decide whether a person has wilfully matter of debt collection? failed to pay maintenance and, therefore, what enforcement measure is most appropriate because of its prior dealings Lord McKenzie of Luton: This happens at the end in that case. It knows the history and the anguish of of quite a long process when all the other mechanisms trying to ensure that payment is made. to collect money have been tried. A number of powers I suggest that an administrative system allows the are embedded; there are deduction from earnings orders, threat of imminent action and that it may be more deductions from bank accounts, which we discussed effective than the threat of application to a court, last night, and lots of other opportunities. The sad given that the international evidence shows the fact, though, is that there are individuals out there administrative process to be faster and less resource- who will go to the most extraordinary lengths to intensive. The creation of an effective deterrent, thereby prevent payment of sums due from them to their influencing the behaviour of non-resident parents who children. It may seem awful to you and me and, in a otherwise might fail to support their children financially, sense, inconceivable, but it happens. This is not the is of particular significance. This change could also first or second port of call; it happens only after those lead to a reduction of cases coming before the courts, processes have been gone through and there is a wilful as I said earlier, enabling them and the commission to refusal to pay. concentrate—

Baroness Meacher: I hope that I may be forgiven for Lord Northbourne: The point of my intervention is intervening but I am very impressed by the arguments that this does not seem to be at all different from that have been put forward. The Minister mentioned money that I owe to a shop or to the bank; it is simply that the administrative decision would be quicker and a debt that that person owes, and it should be dealt less resource-intensive, but I am sitting here thinking with within the existing law that relates to indebtedness, that that is the problem. The reason that a court where eventually you end up in prison. should be involved in these major matters is precisely that a court would look at all sides of the issue and, I Lord Pannick: I am obliged to the noble Lord. I am imagine, take evidence from both sides, including from not disputing that the relevant people have brought it the father who is going to all these lengths to avoid upon themselves nor that in many of these cases, playing for the child’s upkeep. That is why a court perhaps most, it is entirely justified that the sanction would be the right place to make these decisions. It is order should be imposed upon them. The simple point unusual and, one might say, apparently bizarre for a is that it should be a court that decides that it is father to refuse to support his child. There may well be appropriate to impose that order upon them, and it major issues lying behind his determination but those should be for the commission simply to take out an issues should at least be heard. I believe that they application in the magistrates’ court to say, “This is would be heard in a court but I will be corrected if I the history. This is what has happened. It is now am wrong about that. appropriate to take away this man or woman’s driving licence or passport”. That is the constitutional point. Lord Goodlad: I believe the noble Baroness to be It is inappropriate for the commission, however justified absolutely correct. I have not developed the point it may be on the merits, however experienced it may be because it would take quite a long time, but those of us and however careful it is, to do more. It is not appropriate who have dealt with these situations in constituencies for an administrative body to have these powers. I over the years will know that it is much more resource- respectfully ask the Government to think again about intensive to go down the route proposed by the this before Report. Government than that proposed in our amendments, GC 147 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 148 where the court would decide rather than having a of my noble friend; they had the merit of being great determination by the commission and then an simpler and potentially more acceptable to the appeal. The whole thing would take months and cost Government. I did not intervene in the cross-chat at an absolute fortune. So it is beyond question that our the end of my noble friend’s group of amendments, proposal is less resource-intensive and much more but it occurred to me that whether you used the courts sensible. or not, CMEC would have had to do the work already, so that the duplication that he was talking about Lord McKenzie of Luton: I apologise for interrupting almost certainly would not exist. It would have to the noble Lord again. To pick up on one point raised prepare a case for itself, which I suspect would not by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, the issue can differ one iota from the case that it would have to come before the court. The individual can appeal to prepare for the courts. the magistrates’ court or the sheriff’s court, and that What I suggest in these amendments is that the appeal will itself put a stop on the administrative Government are allowed to test the administrative action. There is nothing to stop an individual, if they withdrawal of all travel authorisations, including passports feel that they are being unfairly treated, having their and identity cards, for the two years they are proposing day in court. for driving licences alone. I do not believe that I have yet had an answer to the question I asked on Second Lord Goodlad: The Minister echoes what I have just Reading; namely, by what logic the Government are said: the Bill proposes an administrative procedure demanding to have a sunset clause only for driving costing a vast amount of money, followed by a right of licences and not for all travel authorisations. That appeal. It would be much quicker and cheaper for the position is as illogical as it would be for me to accept court to have a look at the thing first, rather than the Bill’s proposals for driving licences, including the having two or maybe three procedures. The idea of sunset clause, but not for passports. that being resource-intensive is beyond question. My series of amendments, therefore, with the addition I am most grateful to the Minister for his reply, of my noble friend’s Amendment 175A, for which I which we shall of course scrutinise in detail, along am grateful, would mean that all travel authorisations with what has been said by my noble friend Lord would be treated equally in all respects. This is, I hope, Skelmersdale. We will return to the matter on Report. achieved by amending Clause 43 by adding the words I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. “travel authorisation” to the words “driving licence”, which already appear in the Bill. Unfortunately, I did Amendment 174A withdrawn. not have the consequential amendments as complete as I should have done, so I am grateful to my noble Amendments 174B to 174F not moved. friend Lord Goodlad for Amendments 178ZA and 178ZB. I suspect that I should have amended Schedule Clause 42 agreed. 5 as well, which I shall look at that more closely if I decide to pursue this matter on Report. Amendment 174G not moved. Lord Goodlad: I support the sentiments expressed Schedule 5 agreed. by my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale. The Select Committee, in paragraph 13 of our report, welcomed 5.30 pm the provision in Clause 43 for a sunset clause requiring a review after two years of the transfer of driving licence sanctions powers, if Parliament so ruled, from Clause 43 : Report on operation of driving licences the court to the commission. Given the concerns that amendments we rehearsed, if Parliament confers powers over passports to the commission, it, too, should be included in the Amendment 175 sunset clause and that would be revisited.

Moved by Lord Skelmersdale Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank the noble Lord, 175: Clause 43, page 48, line 15, at end insert “or a travel Lord Skelmersdale, for the amendments, whose effect authorisation” would be to make the disqualification of liable persons from holding or obtaining a travel authorisation, as Lord Skelmersdale: This is quite a big group of set out in Clause 42, subject to a two-year pilot. amendments, including Amendments 175, 175A, 176, Clause 43 currently makes provision for a two-year 177, 178, 178ZA, 178ZB. I said two things in relation pilot only in respect of disqualification from driving, to the last group of amendments, in the names of my as the noble Lord outlined. I shall explain why it is noble friend Lord Goodlad and the noble Lord, Lord unnecessary to pilot disqualification from holding travel Pannick. The first was that I was perfectly prepared to authorisation. accept the Bill’s proposition that there should be a Clause 43 is intended to enable the DWP, the pilot, with a sunset clause, to examine the efficacy of commission, the Department for Transport and the the administrative removal of driving licences, with police to gauge whether there is any greater risk associated the ability to appeal to the courts if the decision is with an administrative as opposed to court-based contra to the applicant’s wishes. I merely extemporised power to disqualify a person from driving, as well as in saying that on what I said at Second Reading. I also evaluating its effectiveness in gaining compliance with said that my proposals differed somewhat from those child-maintenance responsibilities. GC 149 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 150

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] Just 7 per cent of all births, which works out at around Requiring a two-year pilot and the publication of a 45,000, are solely registered, and this proportion has report into its effects, as well as further debates in both been on a downward trend. For unmarried fathers, Houses of Parliament should we decide to proceed birth registration has two significant consequences: it after the pilot, will ensure that the driving-licence gives the father parental responsibility in relation to power will become permanent only if it is shown to be the child; it also serves as a record, so the child knows effective. The provisions will also enable us, if necessary, the identity of the father. In the vast majority of cases, to identify and address any issues evidenced by the these are positive outcomes, and we support the proposals. pilot. However, there are details in the schedule which I wish Unlike with passports, we did not attempt to introduce at this stage to probe. administrative driving-licence powers in the 2008 Act First, there are certain circumstances where the due to quite legitimate concerns about the potential mother will not have to give information about the consequences for third parties. A person who drives father, which are spelled out in the new Section 2B (4) while disqualified not only commits a serious motoring of the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953, inserted offence but also invalidates his or her insurance. By by Schedule 6. My first amendment, Amendment contrast, we do not believe that it is necessary to have 178ZBA, would leave out new paragraph (d), which a piloting power with regards to passports. While the states that the mother need not give information if she withdrawal of a person’s passport or ID card suitable does not know the father’s whereabouts. I find that for travel is a severe measure, it does not carry any risk curious. I can understand that if the mother does not of harm to innocent third parties. know who the father is, that presents an insurmountable, While I understand the concerns raised by the if regrettable, barrier to her providing the relevant Select Committee on the Constitution, I do not see a information, but simply not knowing where he is compelling case to justify piloting the travel authorisation should not prevent her giving information about who power. That is because the concerns raised by the he is. Let us remember that if the objection that not committee, primarily about the constitutional knowing where the father is means he cannot be appropriateness of the measure, could not be addressed contacted to verify his paternity, then new subsection (7), simply by a pilot in any event. I hope that that has to which I will come shortly, provides that no information given the noble Lord the assurance that he was seeking. has to be entered on the register simply because the mother has supplied it. However, unless she gives a Lord Skelmersdale: No, I am afraid not. I am name, at the very least, there is absolutely no chance of reminded of a line from “Oklahoma”, sung by the ever tracking him down. I therefore find the exemption rather flighty girlfriend of the cowboy, which goes, in paragraph (d) puzzling and unnecessary. It simply “For me, it’s all or nothing”. I am afraid that, even provides a get-out clause to mothers reluctant to name after what the Minister said, it remains “for me, it’s all the father for no good reason, and I do not think that or nothing” on this issue. that is in the child’s best interests. The real reason for piloting these powers is to make It is on that note that Amendment 178ZCA, which sure that they work. If they do not, I hope that we can leaves out subsection (7), comes into play. If no get rid of them—that applies equally to driving licences information has to be entered on the register simply and passports. I cannot press the amendment at this because the mother has provided it, what will be stage, but unless the Minister can come up with some needed to verify the information and therefore qualify rather better arguments, I assuredly shall at the next. it for entry? Presumably the father will need to verify I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. it, and if the registrar cannot find the father, then what? Does the registrar exercise his discretion and Amendment 175 withdrawn. enter the information if the mother seems believable or does he need to conduct his own investigations? Amendments 175A to 178ZB not moved. How much work will he have to do under subsection (7)? Rather a lot, I imagine, if he does not even have the Clause 43 agreed. father’s name to go on. The fifth amendment in this group, if noble Lords Clauses 44 to 46 agreed. will forgive me for jumping about a little, is designed to provoke debate on what should happen if the reverse situation were to occur, by which I mean if the Schedule6:Registration of births mother disappears without a trace before her baby is registered and therefore cannot give her confirmation. Amendment 178ZBA I realise that we are beginning to get into unlikely, but by no means impossible, scenarios, but I would like to Moved by Lord Skelmersdale hear an assurance from the Minister that all contingencies 178ZBA: Schedule 6, page 93, leave out line 10 have been considered. The second amendment in the group, Amendment Lord Skelmersdale: Schedule 6, introduced by 178ZBB, removes paragraph (f) from the list of Clause 46, proposes compulsory joint birth registration exemptions. This is where a mother need not provide for unmarried parents. At present, the vast majority information on the father if she fears for her or her of all births outside marriage—I understand, child’s safety. I re-emphasise that this is a probing approximately 84 per cent—are already jointly registered. amendment at this stage, as I merely want to unravel GC 151 Welfare Reform Bill[2 JULY 2009] Welfare Reform Bill GC 152 the Government’s thinking. I spy a group of amendments remove the power for the Minister to prescribe further on the horizon in the name of the noble Baroness, exemption conditions in regulations. I hope that I will Lady Thomas, which will encourage a debate on domestic be able to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, violence per se, so I will restrict my observations at this that this power will be used only if new circumstances stage to suggesting that merely knowing there is a emerge which would make sole registration necessary. parental relationship will not, of itself, lead to violence We are not aware of any at present but we recognise against the mother or child. While it goes without that some may come to light as a result of consultation saying that I abhor and condemn violence, given the or when the provisions are implemented. This power importance that I think all noble Lords agree there is merely ensures that the legislation is sufficiently flexible for children to know who their parents are, is this—the to deal with such circumstances swiftly and effectively. birth registration—the correct place to combat domestic Amendment 178ZBB would remove the exemption violence? for a mother who would fear for her safety or that of Amendment 178ZBC leaves out paragraph (g) from her child if the father were contacted in relation to the the list of exemptions. That paragraph simply gives registration. In this legislation we have tried to strike a carte blanche to the Minister to dream up any other balance between a child’s right to know their father’s exemptions that she sees fit. I cannot imagine that she identity and the protection of vulnerable women and thought that I would allow that one to slip away children. This is a difficult balance to strike and I unnoticed. Is this an exhaustive list of exemptions or know that a number of noble Lords have concerns. As not? If it is not, why not? What other exemption does we will have the opportunity to debate these issues the noble Baroness sniff in the wind, perhaps with or further in relation to a later group of amendments, as without the advice of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie? the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, said, I shall keep I would prefer to debate other possible exemptions to my comments brief. the duty here, rather than have them squirreled away As I have said, it is a difficult balance, but I believe in regulations at a later date. I beg to move. that our provisions strike the right balance. As was Baroness Crawley: I thank the noble Lord, Lord explained in another place, the critical point is the role Skelmersdale, for putting forward his amendments. I of the state. We cannot permit a situation where the understand their probing nature. They seek to restrict state knowingly acts in a way which puts the safety of the range of circumstances in which a sole registration a mother or her child at risk. It would be wholly would be permitted under the new system. inappropriate to require a registrar to contact a man if the mother had stated that she had reason to fear for There are a number of circumstances where the her or her child’s safety. In such cases, the birth does mother will be exempt from the requirement to provide not have to remain sole-registered for ever. The father information relating to the father; for example, if she can still come forward independently and request that has reason to fear for her safety or the safety of the his details are included in the register, subject to the child. The first three amendments would remove some mother’s acknowledgement that he is the father. of these exemption conditions, including this example. Amendment 178ZBA would require the mother to 5.45 pm provide information about the father in cases where The amendments would also remove the power to she did not know his whereabouts. This, too, was prescribe further exemptions. The final two amendments debated at length in another place. I hope that I can would have the effect that a man’s details could be reassure noble Lords that this exemption will not be included in the register even though both parents had an easy get-out, as the noble Lord said, for mothers not acknowledged that he was the father. The main who wish to sole-register. A mother will be able to aim of all these amendments seems to be to further claim this exemption only if she cannot provide useful increase the number of births that are jointly registered. information about the father’s whereabouts. Indeed, I fully sympathise with the aim of the noble Lord. the information that a mother will be required to Indeed, we also want to ensure that more children provide under proposed new Section 2B(1) will cover a have both parents named on their birth certificates. range of details about the father. The precise details, We believe that it is important that as many children as on which the noble Lord pressed me, will be decided in possible know the identity of both their parents and consultation with the General Register Office, practising that both parents acknowledge them and take registrars and other stakeholders. However, we do not responsibility for them. That is the point of this part anticipate that a mother will be able to claim an of the Bill. That is why we have drafted provisions exemption because, for example, she cannot provide which require joint registration in all cases where this the father’s full current address. If the mother does not is possible and appropriate. The new system will certainly know the father’s whereabouts and so cannot provide not be a voluntary one. information that enables him to be contacted, joint I shall now explain why, in the situations with registration is impossible. The alleged father cannot be which these amendments are concerned, joint registration contacted and asked to acknowledge paternity.Therefore, would be simply either impossible or inappropriate. requiring the mother to provide the limited information Amendments 178ZBA, 178ZBB and 178ZBC would that she does know would serve no purpose. remove some of the conditions which exempt the I turn to Amendments 178ZCA and 178AA. These mother from providing information about the father. amendments would make it possible for the father’s The exemption conditions in the Bill are few and details to be included in the register in cases where purposeful. They are all necessary because they relate only one parent had alleged that he was the father. I to situations in which joint registration is just not appreciate the noble Lords’ intention behind these possible or appropriate. Amendment 178ZBC would amendments, which I understand is to make sure that GC 153 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 154

[BARONESS CRAWLEY] conflated set of amendments, and I suspect that neither as many children as possible know their father’s identity. the Minister nor I should apologise for that. As usual, However, I should like to explain why the amendments I shall study carefully what she said. However, if the would not achieve that. mother of the child goes to the registrar within the For information about the father to be included in year that is now permitted and says, “I don’t know the register, it is crucial that both parents acknowledge where he is living now, but he was living at 23 Acacia that the man is the father of the child; otherwise, Avenue”, is there any good reason why the registrar information that is unverified and so not meaningful should not note that fact and try 23 Acacia Avenue will be included in the register. The birth register is a when the mother wants nothing more to do with the public, legal record and the information included on it father? Or is that not a realistic scenario? The Minister needs to be accurate. These amendments would lead does not need to answer now but it would be useful if to situations that were at best misleading and at worst she did at some stage. very damaging to those involved. It is not helpful for a child to have a man named as their father on their Baroness Crawley: I underline two points. First, yes, birth certificate if this information cannot be confirmed the registrar can write to the last known address; it by that person. We need to ensure that both parents does not have to be the current address. acknowledge paternity before a man’s details are included in the register. Because of this, the exemptions relating to the father’s whereabouts and the mother’s fear for Lord Skelmersdale: But does that go on the register? her or her child’s safety remain necessary. I was asked a number of questions by the noble Baroness Crawley: No, it is in order to locate the Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. He talked about the possibility father. Secondly, the registrar, as I understand it, has of these exemptions providing an easy get-out for to take the information that he is receiving at face mothers who want to sole-register. The exemption value and as the truth under the Perjury Act. conditions are few, as I said, and purposeful. They all cover situations in which joint registration would be Lord Skelmersdale: I understand that; I am not impossible or inappropriate. If a mother’s circumstances worried about that. I am worried about a situation meet one of the exemption conditions, she will be where the name of the father is known and admitted required to make a declaration to that effect. That by the mother doing the registration, but she does not declaration is subject to the Perjury Act and the mother know where he is currently living, only his last address. is under a duty to be truthful. Under that Act, it is an Even though she is trying to register both herself and offence to give deliberately false or misleading information the father in a joint registration, she may be trying to to a registrar. As we implement our provisions, we will set up a sort of insurance policy for her child. There reinforce the current message of the registration service may be a strong CMEC aspect to her behaviour, which to ensure that both mothers and fathers are aware that from her point of view would be perfectly rational. doing so would be a criminal offence. That is why I asked the question. The Minister has a The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, also asked missive in her hand. I do not know whether she wants whether the list of exemptions was exhaustive. At this to use it or whether we can talk quietly later. stage, we consider that the list is exhaustive but we want to keep flexibility in case further situations emerge, Baroness Crawley: I should be delighted to talk especially during consultation or implementation. quietly later and, if the noble Lord would wish it, to write to him. The missive in my hand tells me that the The noble Lord asked what happens if the mother lady whom we are talking about would be able to disappears or is ill. In such cases, another qualified claim an exemption only if she could not provide informant may give details to allow registration to enough information to enable the registrar to contact take place. Other qualified informants might include the man, because, in that case, she would not know his the midwife who delivered the child or anyone present whereabouts. But we can talk more about this. at the birth or resident in the house where the child was born. He asked what the registrar would do if the Lord Skelmersdale: Things are becoming a little father did not respond. In that situation, registrars will clearer. I am glad that I asked the question because I register the birth without the father’s details. It would am not sure that the Bill makes it clear. I shall study it not be appropriate for the registrar to take substantial of course, as I always do. In the mean time, I beg leave further steps to contact the father, and he or she to withdraw the amendment. cannot enter unverified information on the register. Therefore, we do not see the role of the registrar Amendment 178ZBA withdrawn. changing in that we would not want to expand the Amendments 178ZBB and 178ZBC not moved. registrar’s role to a seek-and-find job as well as ensuring that registration was legal. We will look at what additional Lord McKenzie of Luton: This may be a convenient steps it may be appropriate for the registrar to take moment for the Committee to adjourn until Tuesday through training and guidance. at 3.30 pm. I hope that I have covered the points that the noble Lord raised. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel): The Committee stands adjourned until Tuesday at 3.30 pm. Lord Skelmersdale: I suppose that in the spirit of the past eight days that was a conflated response to a Committee adjourned at 5.59 pm. WS 27 Written Statements[2 JULY 2009] Written Statements WS 28

rent, a new self-help toolkit for those in debt, and Written Statements measures to ensure more responsible debt recovery practices. Thursday 2 July 2009 The White Paper describes a new approach to consumer credit, setting out how we intend to make the consumer Consumer Rights credit market work better for consumers. It includes Statement proposals to reform credit card regulation (including a ban on the sending of unsolicited credit card cheques), new requirements on all lenders to check credit-worthiness The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, of consumers before they lend to them, and a review Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord by the Office of Fair Trading of high-cost credit Young of Norwood Green): My honourable friend the providers. Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships It also sets out measures to empower consumers and Consumer Affairs (Apprenticeships—Joint with through better enforcement and information. Consumers DCSF) (Kevin Brennan), has made the following need clearer information and better enforcement in Statement. order to take advantage of, and not be taken advantage I am today publishing a consumer White Paper: A by, new and rapidly developing markets. Actions include Better Deal for Consumers: Delivering Real Help Now a new consumer advocate who will co-ordinate work and Change for the Future. to educate consumers, and be a champion for consumers. The White Paper sets out the Government’s new, The White Paper also gives details of a new national more active and strategic approach to financial and strategy and specialist team for internet enforcement other consumer markets. It follows publication this on consumer issues, and a central “fighting fund” to week of Building Britain’s Future, which sets out the tackle rogues operating on a big scale. Government’s plans for creating growth and jobs as Building on evidence gathered in the consumer law the economy moves out of recession, and a vision for review, the White Paper sets out our plans for modernising improving consumer rights in public services. This consumer law to enhance and protect consumer rights White Paper deals with consumer rights in the wider in a changing world. We will do this through a new economy. consumer rights Bill, which will implement in due Consumers have been seriously affected by the turmoil course the EU consumer rights directive and modernise in the financial markets, as well as by the longer term and simplify UK consumer sales law. changes in the way that goods and services are bought A Better Deal for Consumers has been produced in and sold. We are taking decisive action to provide real consultation with the devolved Administrations. In help for consumers now and to enhance and enforce those policy areas where the Government’s responsibilities consumer rights in a changing world. extend, the proposals outlined will apply across the Businesses now face tighter margins and more UK. However, other aspects of policy highlighted in competitive prices, which can act as an incentive to the White Paper are devolved, in differing settlements, provide greater choice and lower prices. This can lead to the Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern to increased transparency, greater profitability for the Ireland. Devolved Administrations can tailor their most efficient and an opportunity to build and develop policies to deliver public services which meet the specific customer loyalty. It is also important at all times, but needs of each country. particularly in these challenging economic times, that The proposals and actions in this White Paper will Government are committed to minimising the burdens, form the basis of a consumer policy that responds to including regulation, on business. change and helps all consumers make informed and A Better Deal for Consumers outlines the real help responsible choices. we are providing now for people in financial difficulties, together with longer term measures we are planning to bolster confidence and help consumers exercise greater personal responsibility, while protecting consumers Correction to Commons Written Answer from unfair practices, and ensuring effective and Statement proportionate enforcement. The White Paper focuses on four key themes: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, real help now for vulnerable consumers; Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): My a new approach to consumer credit; honourable friend the Minister of State, Department empowering consumers through better enforcement of Health (Gillian Merron) has made the following and information; and Written Ministerial Statement. modernising consumer law. I regret that the following Written Answers contained information which was incorrect: It sets out the real help we are providing now for vulnerable consumers. It describes practical actions the Written Answer given to the honourable Member to help consumers facing challenging economic for Boston and Skegness on 26 March 2009 (Official circumstances, including measures to help keep people Report, col. 689W); in their homes and help people in difficulty in debt. the Written Answer given to the honourable Member These measures include help for homeowners in mortgage for Romsey on 15 July 2008 (Official Report, arrears and tenants who are falling behind on their col. 353W); WS 29 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 30

the Written Answer given to the honourable Member Year Number of E112 forms issued for Romsey on 20 November 2007 (Official Report, col. 831W); 2004 503 the Written Answer given to the honourable Member 2005 360 for Mid Dorset and North Poole on 24 October 2006 412 2007 (Official Report, col. 387W); 2007 534 2008 (between 01.01.08 and 923 the Written Answer given to the honourable 27.10.08) Member for South Cambridgeshire on 18 May 2007 (Official Report, col. 1016W); the Written Answer given to the honourable Member No E112 forms covering fertility treatment in another for South Cambridgeshire on 20 June 2007 (Official EEA member state were issued between 2002 and Report, col. 1913W); and 2008. Equivalent data in relation to all Written Answers for years prior to 2002 are not available. the Written Answer given to the honourable Member for Stockton South on 5 July 2006 (Official Report, col. 1236W); Forced Marriage These Answers all related to the number of E112 Statement forms issued by the Department of Health, to UK citizens seeking planned treatment in another European economic area (EEA) member state. The incorrect The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home information which was given, was a result of IT problems Office (Lord West of Spithead): My honourable friend and data capture issues faced by the Department of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Crime Health team in Newcastle responsible for the collation Reduction (Alan Campbell) has made the following of E112 information. The correct processes and systems Written Ministerial Statement. are now in place. Today the Forced Marriage Unit (a joint Home The correct number of E112 forms issued for proton Office/Foreign and Commonwealth Office unit) launches therapy in another EEA member state is as follows: revised forced marriage multi-agency practice guidelines intended for all front-line practitioners (such as teachers, Year E112s issued for proton therapy police officers, social and healthcare professionals, housing officers) to help them to work more closely 2006 5 together to better identify and protect children and 2007 14 adults at risk of forced marriage. These practice guidelines 2008 10 have been designed to provide step-by-step advice to Total 29 front-line workers and have been produced to complement the statutory guidance, (which came into force with The correct number of E112 forms issued between the launch of the Forced Marriage (Civil Protection) 01.04.08 and 30.06.08 by country of treatment is as Act) in November 2008), which sets out the broader follows: strategic responsibilities of chief executives and senior Countries of treatment managers in tackling forced marriage locally. Country These new guidelines are available from the House Library, can be accessed on the Forced Marriage Austria 5 Unit’s website at www.fco.gov.uk/forcedmarriage, or Belgium 15 hard copies can be obtained directly from the unit at Finland 7 the following address: Forced Marriage Unit, Foreign France 100 and Commonwealth Office, Room G58, Old Admiralty Germany 26 Building, London, SW1A 2PA. Greece 3 Italy 6 Netherlands 2 Government Decontamination Service Spain 9 Statement Sweden 7 Switzerland 8 Czech Republic 11 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Hungary 5 Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Poland 141 (Lord Davies of Oldham): My honourable friend the Slovakia 8 Minister for Food, Farming and the Environment Total 353 (Jim Fitzpatrick) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. The correct number of E112 forms issued between The 2008-09 annual report and accounts for the 2002 and 2008 is as follows: Government Decontamination Service was laid before Parliament today. Year Number of E112 forms issued This is the final report and accounts for the Government Decontamination Service which from 2002 1393 1 April 2009 became part of the Food and Environment 2003 1287 Research Agency. WS 31 Written Statements[2 JULY 2009] Written Statements WS 32

Turks and Caicos Islands recent years. This same information (and his preliminary Statement findings against individuals) has highlighted weaknesses in the law and its administration. Although the governor intends, if possible, to publish the full final report in due course, he is not currently The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth able to do so owing to legal proceedings brought in Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My honourable friend TCI by two persons named in it. Consequently, I hope the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign that a redacted version of the final report will be and Commonwealth Affairs (Chris Bryant) has made published as soon as possible. the following Written Ministerial Statement. Legal proceedings are also ongoing in the United On 16 March 2009, the Minister for the Overseas Kingdom, relating to the Order in Council made on Territories informed the House of the publication by 18 March which would suspend parts of the TCI the Governor of the Turks and Caicos Islands (TCI) constitution. This was to be expected and it will take of the interim report of the commission of inquiry time for this to run its course. However, I am determined into whether there was information that corruption or to push forward now with the implementation of other serious dishonesty in relation to past and present recommendations in the final report that do not depend elected members of the TCI House of Assembly may on the entry into force of the order. To ensure that have taken place in recent years. In his interim report, good governance can be re-established as swiftly as the commissioner, the right honourable Sir Robin possible in TCI, the governor, with the full support Auld, found there was information in abundance pointing and assistance of the British Government, is therefore to a high probability of systemic corruption and/or taking steps to appoint experts to work in areas of serious dishonesty. In Sir Robin’s view this, together concern highlighted in the final report. These include: with clear signs of political amorality and immaturity a special adviser to the governor to oversee reform of and of general administrative incompetence, demonstrated the public service; three public financial management a need for urgent suspension in whole or in part of the advisers; an economic adviser; a good governance constitution and for other legislative and administrative adviser and a Crown land adviser. Other governance reforms. recommendations are under active consideration. Direct On 31 May Sir Robin delivered his final report to support for the governor has also been increased with the Governor of the Turks and Caicos Islands. the appointment of an additional senior FCO official In that report, the commissioner has confirmed to his office. that nothing that has happened since he submitted his A special prosecutor and head of the civil and interim report has prompted him to change his original criminal recovery unit, and a senior investigating officer view. His close examination of the information and have been identified and the necessary procedures evidence before the inquiry has reinforced, not weakened, relating to their appointment are now under way. The his conviction of a need for urgent and wide-ranging holders of these positions will work together with a systemic change. team on the investigations recommended by the On systemic weaknesses, he confirms the commission. I will announce further details soon. recommendations in his interim report covering: partial In summary, the British Government are working suspension of the constitution and interim direct rule; hand in hand with the governor to start implementing criminal sanctions and civil recovery; integrity in public commission recommendations without delay and remain life, Crown land allocation, sale and management; and determined to do everything in our power, as swiftly as a new constitution. Some recommendations focus on possible, to tackle systemic corruption and to restore deterring or preventing corruption and other serious good governance in TCI. dishonesty, while others look at the broader constitutional I wish to acknowledge, again, the help and support and statutory framework of governance. He recommends provided by the keen eye of the FAC in highlighting the appointment of an independent expert on the the situation in TCI. management and allocation of Crown land as well as strengthening the Governor’s Office and Attorney- Veterinary Laboratories Agency: Annual General’s Chambers. Report and Accounts The commissioner’s final report also makes preliminary Statement findings and recommendations including the institution of criminal investigations in relation to former Premier The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Michael Misick, and four of his former Cabinet ministers. Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs It confirms the recommendation in the interim report (Lord Davies of Oldham): My honourable friend the for the establishment of a civil and criminal recovery Minister for Food, Farming and the Environment unit and the appointment of a special prosecutor. (Jim Fitzpatrick) has made the following Written The commissioner states that the information he Ministerial Statement. has gathered points to a high probability of systemic The 2008-09 annual report and accounts for the corruption and/or other serious dishonesty involving Veterinary Laboratories Agency was laid before past and present elected Members of the legislature in Parliament on 1 July.

WA 65 Written Answers[2 JULY 2009] Written Answers WA 66

The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury Written Answers (Lord Myners): The services of an architect, surveyor or any person acting as a consultant or in a supervisory Thursday 2 July 2009 capacity are liable to VAT at the standard rate in most circumstances, even when supplied in connection with Afghanistan building works which themselves qualify for the zero Question rate of VAT. Asked by Lord Hylton Azerbaijan To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Question will make representations to the Government of Afghanistan suggesting that 600 prisoners at Bagram Asked by Baroness Cox be charged if suspected of criminal offences; and To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they that they and other detainees in Afghanistan be will raise with the government of Azerbaijan the provided with a satisfactory review process for their treatment of six Armenian prisoners (five military detention. [HL4342] personnel and one civilian) recently captured when they crossed the border into Azerbaijan; and whether The Minister for Europe (Baroness Kinnock of they will make representations about the display of Holyhead): The UK works closely with the Afghan those prisoners on Azeri television and any duress authorities to support a strengthening of the criminal associated with their declared wishes to return to a justice system across Afghanistan. The UK is clear third country. [HL4499] that all detainees should be treated humanely. It is right that the International Committee of the Red The Minister for Europe (Baroness Kinnock of Cross have access to those detained at the Bagram Holyhead): We are aware that both Armenia and detention facility. Azerbaijan report incidents in which their servicemen The question of prisoners detained at Bagram is a have been held by the other side. matter for the US and Afghan Governments as Bagram We encourage both sides to work towards a peaceful, is a US detention facility. President Obama has set in negotiated settlement and to explore the possibilities motion a comprehensive review of detention policy for confidence-building measures to reduce tension and practice, including in Afghanistan. We welcome along the line of contact and international border this and await its outcome. between the two countries. We expect all countries to The formal justice system in Afghanistan faces respect international humanitarian and human rights many challenges, including a shortage of trained judges law in dealing with captured soldiers and civilians. and legal representation. The UK and international community are supporting the strengthening of the Bees justice sector to address these; for example, at the national Questions level the UK is building the capacity of the Criminal Asked by Lord Moynihan Justice Task Force and, through the Department for International Development, has supported the World To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much Bank’s Justice Sector Reform Project. funding will be allocated to Honey Bee Research The UK also supports human rights in Afghanistan. through (a) the National Bee Unit, and (b) higher Since 2001 the UK has given nearly £2 million to education institutions, as part of the Living with support the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Environmental Change partnership. [HL4628] Commission (AIHRC). The AIHRC has over 500 staff The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, across Afghanistan, actively tackling human rights Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs issues, including false imprisonment. (Lord Davies of Oldham): Decisions on what projects In its 2007 annual report, the AIHRC stated that its will be funded under the insect pollinator initiative Monitoring and Investigation Unit, in close co-operation will be made by the funders on the basis of whether with the Afghan Ministry of Justice, prepared a list of they fulfil the eligibility criteria, address the issues 2,392 people who were in prison after the completion outlined in the research call and on the basis of their of their sentences or who were otherwise illegally quality. Therefore, it is not possible to predict at this detained. The AIHRC later released an update stating stage what proportion of funds will be allocated to that 819 of those who were illegally detained had been specific areas or research bodies, including the National released and the sentences of an estimated 1,500 more Bee Unit and higher education institutions. A meeting had been determined. will be held in London on 3 July to launch the call for proposals and further details can be found on the Architects: Fees Living With Environmental Change website. Question Asked by Lord Moynihan Asked by Lord Tebbit To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the University of Sussex’s research To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether fees plan for honey bee health and wellbeing. [HL4629] charged by architects and allied professionals for construction or alterations to domestic properties Lord Davies of Oldham: No formal assessment has to meet the needs of disabled persons are exempt been made of the University of Sussex’s research plan from VAT. [HL4600] for honey bee health and well-being. However, the WA 67 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 68

Food and Environment Research Agency’s chief scientist line with their legal obligations under the United is intending to visit the university in August to discuss Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change bee health research. (UNFCCC). Under the convention, parties are required periodically Broadcasting: Analogue Radios to report their climate policies and emissions inventories to the UNFCCC secretariat. We take a strong interest Question in these reports, and use the data presented to inform Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach our understanding of countries’ progress in reducing emissions through existing policies, and the further To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether any actions that will be required from countries in order to decision to end analogue radio broadcasting will be avoid dangerous climate change. contingent upon manufacturers being able to convert existing radios affordably. [HL4429] The Government are also monitoring unilateral announcements by major countries on the mitigation The Minister for Communications, Technology and actions that they expect to undertake in future. Current Broadcasting (Lord Carter of Barnes): The recently negotiations on the overall shape of a future international published Digital Britain report set out our vision for climate change agreement foresee the adoption at the delivery of a digital radio upgrade programme by Copenhagen later this year of new, improved international the end of 2015, when we would expect all services rules for measuring, reporting and verifying the impact carried on the national and local DAB multiplexes of countries’ emissions reduction policies. to cease broadcasting on analogue. In order to help We also actively monitor the longer term impact of achieve this, we have urged manufacturers to pursue mitigation actions on global concentrations of carbon opportunities to develop devices which convert analogue dioxide and other GHGs in the atmosphere, including sets affordably, but this is not a pre-requisite. We also through research conducted by the Meteorological welcome manufacturers’ commitment to producing Office Hadley Centre. However, we would expect a sub £20 DAB sets within the next two years. lag of several years between any significant changes in greenhouse gas emissions and the measurable atmospheric effects that would result from this, due to Civil Partnerships inertia in the global climate system. Question Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill Climate Change To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to Question the Written Answer by Lord Malloch-Brown on 23 October 2008 (WA 119), whether, following the Asked by Lord Dykes amendment to French law adopted by the Sénat on To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their 28 April, parties to a civil partnership formed under response to warnings by scientists of an acceleration the Civil Partnership Act 2004 will henceforth enjoy in the melting of ice sheets in Greenland and the same rights under French law as couples who Antarctica. [HL4166] have concluded a pacte civil de solidarité. [HL4636]

The Minister for Europe (Baroness Kinnock of The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Holyhead): The French Government have confirmed Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The to us that, with effect from 14 May 2009 when the Government recognise that if we do not take action amendment passed into French law, parties to a civil now to stop climate change getting worse, the ice partnership formed under the British Civil Partnership sheets will continue to melt, the impacts on future Act 2004 now enjoy equivalent legal status under generations will be irreversible and the costs of taking French law to couples who have concluded a pacte action unaffordable. That is why the UK is pushing for civil de solidarité. an ambitious global climate change deal in Copenhagen later this year that will meet our objective of keeping global temperature rises below 2 degrees Celsius. This Climate Change: Greenhouse Gases will mean nothing less than a 50 per cent reduction in Question global emissions by 2050 (compared to 1990 levels). In the EU, we have already committed to a 20 per Asked by Lord Dykes cent reduction in EU emissions compared to 1990 To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they levels by 2020, and if other countries make ambitious expect their official scientific advisers to measure commitments in December, the EU is prepared to the effects of changes in the United States and increase this commitment to 30 per cent. This is by far other major countries’ policies to reduce greenhouse the most ambitious mitigation offer on the negotiation gas emissions. [HL4165] table so far. At a national level, future sea level rise around the The Minister of State, Department of Energy and UK coast due to the effects of climate change is a Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): We major concern. In November 2008, the Environment closely follow the impact of policy announcements by Agency, working with the Met Office Hadley Centre, the United States and other major countries on plans published some climate change research findings as to mitigate their greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions in part of the Thames Estuary 2100 project (TE100). WA 69 Written Answers[2 JULY 2009] Written Answers WA 70

The research outlined that relative sea levels could rise Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass between 0.2m and 0.88m by 2100. This figure allows for small land movements over that time, but does not To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment fully account for the remote possibility of future rapid they have made of the establishment by the Turkish changes in ice flows in the Atlantic or in Greenland, Cypriot authorities of a Claims Commission to which could lead to the upper figures being much which Greek Cypriots are applying for restitution higher. of their property or for compensation; and what assessment they have made of whether, given that In response, the Environment Agency commissioned provision, Greek Cypriots have any need to sue the Met Office to consider this gap in ice flow science. British buyers for compensation in the English courts. The work investigated a most extreme scenario, known as High + +. This suggested a higher range of sea level [HL4370] rise of up to 1.9m. This is regarded as a remote possibility, highly uncertain and highly unlikely in this Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: We are aware of the century. As we go forward, we will refine our projections establishment of a “claims commission”, the Immoveable in the light of what is happening in practice and as Properties Commission, in the north of Cyprus. However, science deepens our understanding. as with all individual cases, it is up to individuals how Defra manages the impacts of sea level rise through they choose to take up their claims. Ultimately we a range of policy approaches including supporting believe the complex issue of property can only be fully flood adaptation and resilience. Long-term strategies resolved through a comprehensive settlement on the and plans, such as Thames Estuary 2100, have been island. prepared on the basis of current understanding and Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass are designed to be adaptable to ensure that future challenges can be met. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the enforceability of orders of Greek Cypriot courts in so far as they require the demolition of houses in Northern Cyprus or the Cyprus: Property eviction of their occupiers. [HL4371] Questions Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: This would be a matter for courts and judicial process; as such we are To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment unable to comment further. they have made of whether the private property rights of Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots have been overridden by political acts by both sides; Data Controllers and what assessment they have made of whether Questions property issues in Northern Cyprus can be treated as normal cases of private property rights. [HL4368] Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many private and voluntary data controllers have been The Minister for Europe (Baroness Kinnock of (a) considered to be within the scope of assessment Holyhead): Property issues of both Greek Cypriots notices, and (b) inspected in accordance with an and Turkish Cypriots have been affected by the breakdown assessment notice. [HL4594] of relations between the two communities. Ultimately we believe the complex issue of property can only be To ask Her Majesty’s Government where private fully resolved through a comprehensive settlement on and voluntary data controllers that have been inspected the island. in accordance with an assessment notice, for which public authorities they were exercising functions or Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass providing services under a contract. [HL4595] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment To ask Her Majesty’s Government where private they have made of whether the leaders of the Turkish and voluntary data controllers have been inspected Cypriots and Greek Cypriots, rather than the European in accordance with an assessment notice, for what Union and British courts, should resolve disputes reasons notices were issued; and what were the over property rights in Cyprus. [HL4369] results of those inspections. [HL4596]

Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: Ultimately we believe The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry the complex issue of property can only be fully resolved of Justice (Lord Bach): No assessment notices have yet through a comprehensive settlement on the island. We been served by the Information Commissioner’s Office fully support the efforts of the two leaders on the because they are among the provisions in the Coroners island to find a settlement to the Cyprus problem by and Justice Bill, currently before Parliament. Cypriots, for Cypriots. Good progress has already The Government are currently considering which been made but we would urge the two leaders to data controllers, in addition to government departments, intensify their efforts in order to take advantage of should be brought within the scope of assessment the limited window of opportunity to solve this notices under proposed new Section 41A(2)(b) of longstanding problem. the Data Protection Act (inserted by Clause 156 of the WA 71 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 72

Bill). Any proposals to include additional data controllers The Minister of State, Department of Energy and within scope will follow consultation with the persons Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The concerned. determining factors that contribute to defining security The Government are separately considering the at a licensed civil nuclear site are: the threat, the arguments that have been made in favour of amending consequences of the loss or dispersal of nuclear material, the Bill to extend further the assessment notice scheme and the UK’s international obligations. to cover a broader range of data controllers, including Security in the civil nuclear industry is subject to those in the private sector. regulation which reflects the international obligations and best practice. The Office for Civil Nuclear Security (OCNS) regulates the civil nuclear industry by means Education: Scholarships of the Nuclear Industries Security Regulations 2003 Question (NISR), which makes provision for the protection of nuclear material, both on sites and in transit, against Asked by Lord Luce the risks of theft and sabotage, and for the protection of sensitive nuclear information. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress is being made by the inter-departmental working Security measures in the civil nuclear industry are group on scholarships; when it will conclude its applied in a graduated manner in accordance with the work; and when they will report to Parliament on severity of the threat and the level of consequence of a the group’s recommendations. [HL4410] successful attack in a manner that provides defence in depth. OCNS may give directions to the nuclear operators at any time, for instance in the light of a change in the The Minister for Europe (Baroness Kinnock of threat level for the industry. This is aided by OCNS Holyhead): The inter-departmental working group on being an active member of the UK intelligence community. scholarships first met on 19 February 2009. It will Any new licensed nuclear sites would need to satisfy continue to meet on an ad hoc basis. It was set up to the demanding requirements of the NISR. OCNS will improve working level co-ordination between departments ensure that security measures are included in plans for and other interested organisations and has no specific the construction of any new nuclear power station remit to produce recommendations. from the outset. Doing so will avoid the need to retrofit security measures once construction is under Energy: Meters way. This will also enable regulators to make an early judgment on the most appropriate measures for any Question construction site. This will help ensure that security is Asked by Lord Teverson ingrained into practices at any site from day one. The Government are confident that this approach will To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their ensure that security measures will continue to be robust assessment of the estimate that an additional 1,000 and effective. pre-payment electricity meters are being installed Asked by Lord Dykes each week in light of the fact that an average pre-payment electricity customer pays £95 a year To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress more in charges than a direct debit customer. is being made in securing approval by regulators of [HL3328] generic nuclear reactor designs. [HL4541]

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): Prepayment meters enable customers to monitor and control their expenditure, and can also be a valuable alternative to Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: The UK nuclear regulators disconnection for non-payment of bills. Ofgem’s recent are currently assessing two designs under the generic market probe, however, identified that some customers design assessment (GDA) process—EdF/Areva’s were paying an unjustified premium for their pre-payment UK-EPR and Westinghouse’s AP 1000. meter. Under pressure from Government and Ofgem’s This process is being undertaken by the Nuclear findings suppliers have reduced the premiums paid by Installations Inspectorate (NII) and the Office for customers where they were not cost-reflective. Ofgem Civil Nuclear Security (OCNS)—both part of the is currently consulting on licence modifications to Health and Safety Executive (HSE)—and the ensure that this situation cannot reoccur. Environment Agency. GDA began in July 2007 on a contingent basis, pending the outcome of the Government’s consultation Energy: Nuclear Reactors on nuclear power in January 2008. Regulators completed Questions their initial stage of the assessment in March 2008. Asked by Baroness Harris of Richmond The more detailed assessment stages of GDA commenced in June 2008. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how security Regulators currently aim to complete GDA by June is defined for the civil nuclear sector; and whether it 2011, with the NII producing interim reports in November takes into account risks associated with proposed 2009 and the Environment Agency undertaking a new-build nuclear reactors. [HL4201] public consultation on their findings in spring 2010. WA 73 Written Answers[2 JULY 2009] Written Answers WA 74

Regular updates on the progress of GDA, including renewable technologies, especially for wind energy. quarterly reports, are published on the regulator’s joint This will require increases in manufacturing, in the website at http://www.hse.gov.uk/newreactors/index.htm. capability to deploy the technologies and to operate the new systems. In turn, this will require skilled people at all levels. The Carbon Trust estimates that Energy: Power Stations wind will require around 50,000 new people by 2020, Question while renewable energy generally could create up to 500,000 new jobs. Asked by Lord Teverson DECC is working with the lead Sector Skills Council, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Energy & Utility Skills (EU Skills) and with its employer- they have to provide the skills and manpower required led Power Sector Skills Strategy Group to develop and to build and deliver the proposed new nuclear power take forward a strategy to ensure that the electrical stations; and what assessment they have made of skills to support renewable energy are available in the the likelihood of those plans delivering that programme. future, with clear training pathways and qualifications for those seeking work in the sector. We are also [HL4339] working to help develop the National Skills Academy for Power, which will be the prime agent for managing The Minister of State, Department of Energy and the delivery of the skills and training elements of the Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The strategy. Government recognise the challenge of ensuring that We are working with the British Wind Energy the UK has enough skilled workers to maintain and Association to help develop a skills and training strategy decommission existing nuclear power stations as well for wind and marine renewables. as building new ones. Specifically we are improving science provision in schools, have charged the Sector Skills Council with Energy: Wind Farms taking forward a training strategy, and have helped set Questions up the National Skills Academy for Nuclear to improve the supply of specialist skills at all levels. Asked by Lord Dykes The Office for Nuclear Development (OND) in To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they DECC has fostered links with all of the various skills will ensure that more wind farm units in the United bodies, other government departments, academia and Kingdom are manufactured and serviced in this industry involved in the nuclear sector to ensure that country. [HL4080] all are working towards the same goals of ensuring enough skilled people to build a new generation of nuclear power stations. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and The OND is currently working in partnership with Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The a number of bodies, including Cogent (the sector skills locations of manufacturing and servicing capacity are council responsible for nuclear) to develop a high level a commercial decision for wind turbine manufacturers skills and capability plan detailing exactly what skills and wind farm developers. will be needed, the volume of different skills and when However, the Government are aware of the significant they will be needed in order to be able to have new industrial potential that the growing renewable energy nuclear power plants built and generating electricity sector holds for the UK—for example, the recent by 2018. With this detailed plan in place we will then publication Low Carbon Industrial Strategy: A Vision, work to identify and close any potential skills gaps in published in March this year, noted that we intend to the nuclear workforce before they become critical. A ensure our skills, infrastructure, procurement, research report will be published in autumn 2009. and development, demonstration and deployment policies make the UK the best place to locate and develop a low carbon business—and make sure international Energy: Renewables business recognises this. There is significant interest in Question the UK as a location for renewable business including wind turbine development and manufacturing—for Asked by Lord Teverson example, the US wind turbine manufacturer Clipper have set up in the North East of England to design, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans develop and manufacture next generation offshore they have to provide the skills and manpower required wind turbines. to deliver the 15 per cent target for renewables as We consulted last summer on how to meet the UK a proportion of the United Kingdom’s energy share of the EU 2020 target. Our UK renewable production; and what assessment they have made energy strategy consultation sought views on what of the likelihood of those plans meeting that target. more we can all do to ensure that the UK maximises [HL4338] business benefits, including UK jobs. We will respond to the consultation responses in the Renewable Energy The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Strategy in the summer, detailing an action plan for Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The promoting further renewable deployment throughout Government recognise that meeting the renewable energy the UK. In addition, my department will be launching target requires a very large increase in deployment of an Office for Renewable Energy Deployment (ORED). WA 75 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 76

The ORED will have a strong role to play in tackling methods used for current and future policies, to improve renewables deployment barriers related to supply chain, their effectiveness. It is also considering whether new grid and planning, and raising public awareness. policies should be introduced to help us make further progress towards our goals, particularly in light of Asked by Lord Dykes market conditions and our aims to reduce carbon To ask Her Majesty’s Government what increase emissions. in both land-based and sea-based wind farm units The review is currently undertaking initial analysis they expect to see by 2015 and 2020 as a result of of the fuel poverty policy landscape. It is looking at pending development decisions by wind farm operators. different future price scenarios. The initial findings of [HL4082] the review are expected later this summer. Until the review has delivered its findings it would Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: This department has be inappropriate to consider whether to revise the not made any estimate of the number of wind farms Government’s Fuel Poverty Strategy. to be installed by 2015 or 2020. However, as of November 2008 the UK had 19,177MW of wind generation Georgia either operational or within the planning system. Question For the UK to achieve our 2020 renewable energy target will require an eight-fold increase in renewable Asked by Lord Hylton energy and we expect a significant proportion of this To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the situation to come from wind, both offshore and onshore. in Abkhazia will be monitored following the ending The Renewable Energy Strategy (RES) consultation of the United Nations Observer Mission in Georgia; document published last summer contained a central and whether the Organisation for Security and scenario illustrating how the 2020 RES target might Co-operation in Europe will provide monitors. be achieved. Analysis underpinning that scenario suggested [HL4455] that some 8GW of onshore and 6GW of offshore wind by 2015, and around 14GW of each could be The Minister for Europe (Baroness Kinnock of expected by 2020 in order to meet the renewables Holyhead): The UN Observer Mission in Georgia target. (UNOMIG) ceased all mandated activity on 16 June Updated analysis and scenarios will be published as 2009. There are now no international military monitors part of the Renewable Energy Strategy, this summer. operating in Abkhazia. The EU Monitoring Mission is mandated to operate in the whole of Georgia, but in practice has never had proper access to the separatist Financial Services Authority: Chairman regions. We continue to press for this. Question The UK and partners are exploring options to strengthen the international presence in Abkhazia. Asked by Baroness Noakes The closure of UNOMIG has had no effect on the To ask Her Majesty’s Government for how long status of other UN agencies, such as the UN Children’s they expect the Chairman of the Financial Services Fund (UNICEF) and the UN High Commissioner for Authority to remain Chairman of the Committee Refugees (UNHCR), who continue to operate in on Climate Change; and whether their expectation Abkhazia. Our embassy officials in Georgia have visited has changed since his appointment. [HL4065] Abkhazia since the war, most recently in May 2009. We have supported the role of international monitors in investigating—where they can—allegations of human The Minister of State, Department of Energy and rights violations. This is especially relevant in the case Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): While no of the increasingly exposed ethnic Georgian population suitable replacement for Lord Adair Turner as Chairman in Abkhazia. of the Committee on Climate Change has yet been identified, we are grateful to him for remaining as We will continue to remind all parties of their Chair of the Committee for the time being. obligations to protect human rights and to allow unhindered humanitarian access in areas they control as enshrined in the Sarkozy-Medvedev agreement. We Fuel Poverty will push them to deliver on this. Question The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) military monitoring operation is due Asked by Lord Teverson to close on 30 June 2009. The monitors currently operate in Georgian-controlled territory adjacent to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress South Ossetia. Prior to August 2008 they had access is being made in reviewing their fuel poverty strategy. to South Ossetia, but they have never had access to [HL3330] Abkhazia. We continue to press Russia to re-engage on the Greek chairman’s proposals regarding the OSCE The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Monitoring Mission in Georgia, which would allow Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The Fuel OSCE monitors to work in South Ossetia. We are Poverty Review is examining whether existing measures concurrently looking at options for an alternative to tackle fuel poverty could be made more effective, OSCE presence working in Georgia on specific issues, and whether there is scope to optimise the targeting not necessarily related to conflict. WA 77 Written Answers[2 JULY 2009] Written Answers WA 78

Government Departments: Staffing As National Statistician I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question, further to the Questions Written Answer by the Minister for the Natural and Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach Marine Environment, Wildlife and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies, on 22 April (HC Deb, cols 698-700W), To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the asking how many other departments employ more Written Answer by the Minister for the Natural and than 10 per cent of their permanent staff in legal and Marine Environment, Wildlife and Rural Affairs, strategic human resources. (HL4471). Huw Irranca-Davies, on 22 April (Official Report, Comparable data for individual government House of Commons, cols. 698–700W), how many departments at a directorate level, as provided for other departments employ more than 10 per cent of Defra in the Written Answer by Huw Irranca-Davies, their permanent staff in legal and strategic human are not collected centrally. resources. [HL4471] The Office for National Statistics collects the “profession of post” for individual civil servants, as Baroness Crawley: The information requested falls part of the Annual Civil Service Employment Survey within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. (ACSES). At 31 March 2008, there were nine departments I have asked the authority to reply. employing more than 10 per cent of their permanent Letter from Karen Dunnell, National Statistician, to staff in professional, legal or human resources posts Lord Taylor of Holbeach, dated June 2009. (Annex A).

Annex A Civil Service Employment: Profession by Government Department 12 Permanent employees Headcount Legal and Human Resources posts as Human All reported percentage of Resources Legal professions All employees known professions

31 March 2008 Attorney General’s Departments Revenue and Customs Prosecutions Office 10 100 290 290 35 Crown Prosecution Service 190 3,040 8,330 8,330 39 Attorney General’s Office 0 20 50 50 33 Serious Fraud Office 10 50 310 310 21 Treasury Solicitor 20 480 750 750 66 Health Medical and Healthcare Products Regulatory 10 110 860 860 14 Agency Justice Ministry of Justice (exc agencies)3 970 0 3,680 3,680 26 Work and Pensions DWP Corporate Services 400 390 5,650 5,650 14 Scottish Government Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service 40 460 1,560 1,560 32

Source: Annual Civil Service Employment Survey 1 Numbers are rounded to the nearest ten, numbers less that five are represented by “..” 2 The profession of a civil servant relates to the post occupied by the person and is not dependent on any qualifications the individual may have. 3 Includes Government Office for the Regions employees.

Annex B Civil Service Employment: Profession by Government Department 12 Permanent employees Headcount Legal and Human Resources posts as All reported percentage of Human Resources Legal professions All employees known professions

31 March 2008 Attorney General’s Departments Revenue and Customs 10 100 290 290 35 Prosecutions Office Crown Prosecution 190 3,040 8,330 8,330 39 Service WA 79 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 80

Annex B Civil Service Employment: Profession by Government Department 12 Permanent employees Headcount Legal and Human Resources posts as All reported percentage of Human Resources Legal professions All employees known professions

Attorney General’s Office 0 20 50 50 33 Serious Fraud Office 10 50 310 310 21 Crown Prosecution .. 20 40 40 .. Service Inspectorate Treasury Solicitor 20 480 750 750 66 Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Department for Business, 10 0 3,450 3,450 0 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (exc agencies)3 Office of Fair Trading 20 30 580 580 9 Advisory Conciliation 20 0 740 740 3 and Arbitration Service Office of Gas and 10 20 280 280 9 Electricity Market Postal Services .. 10 60 60 .. Commission Companies House 80 10 1,120 1,120 7 Insolvency Service 0 0 2,530 2,530 0 Cabinet Office Cabinet Office 0 0 0 1,230 0 (exc agencies) Other Cabinet Office agencies National School of 10 .. 240 240 .. Government Parliamentary Counsel 00 0700 Office Central Office of 50 0 690 690 7 Information HM Treasury HM Treasury .. .. 1,080 1,080 .. HM Revenue and Customs HM Revenue and 1,720 450 88,890 88,900 2 Customs Valuation Office 90 0 4,280 4,280 2 Chancellor’s other departments Government Actuary’s .. 0 100 100 .. Department National Savings and .. 0 130 130 .. Investments Debt Management Office 10 0 80 80 7 Office of Government 0 0 180 180 0 Commerce Royal Mint .. 0 710 710 .. Office for National 80 0 3,140 3,160 3 Statistics OGC Buying Solutions 10 0 260 260 5 Charity Commission Charity Commission 20 20 490 490 8 Children, Schools and Families Department for Children, 20 0 550 3,340 3 Schools and Families3 WA 81 Written Answers[2 JULY 2009] Written Answers WA 82

Annex B Civil Service Employment: Profession by Government Department 12 Permanent employees Headcount Legal and Human Resources posts as All reported percentage of Human Resources Legal professions All employees known professions

Innovation, Universities and Skills Department for 0 0 250 790 0 Innovation, Universities and Skills National Weights and 0 0 50 50 0 Measures Laboratory UK Intellectual Property 0 0 1,000 1.000 0 Office Office for Standards In Education Office for Standards in 50 0 2,460 2,460 2 Education Communities and Local Government Department for 160 80 2,780 2,930 9 Communities and Local Government (exc agencies) Queen Elizabeth II ..05050.. Conference Centre Ordnance Survey 50 10 1,390 1,390 4 Fire Service College 10 0 240 240 4 Planning Inspectorate 30 0 840 840 3 Culture, Media and Sport Department for Culture 30 .. 470 470 .. Media and Sport Royal Parks 0 0 0 100 0 Defence Ministry of Defence 0 0 0 68,220 0 Royal Fleet Auxiliary 0 0 0 2,280 0 UK Hydrographic Office 30 20 1,040 1,040 5 Meteorological Office 40 20 1,760 1,770 3 Army Base Repair 40 0 2,340 2,340 2 Organisation Defence Science and 0 0 0 3,410 0 Technology Laboratory Defence Aviation Repair 30 0 2,000 2,000 2 Agency Environment Food and Rural Affairs Department for 140 110 2,980 3,050 8 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (exc agencies)3 Office of Water Services 10 10 200 200 9 Rural Payments Agency 190 .. 3,440 3,440 .. Animal Health 30 0 1,640 1,640 2 Marine Fisheries Agency 10 0 180 180 4 Veterinary Medicines .. 0 140 140 .. Directorate Central Science 0 640 640 Laboratory Pesticides Safety 0 0 180 180 0 Directorate Veterinary Laboratories 10 0 1,280 1,280 1 Agency Centre for Environment 10 0 530 530 2 Fisheries and Aquaculture Science WA 83 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 84

Annex B Civil Service Employment: Profession by Government Department 12 Permanent employees Headcount Legal and Human Resources posts as All reported percentage of Human Resources Legal professions All employees known professions

Government 0 0 20 30 0 Decontamination Services Export Credit Guarantee Department Export Credit Guarantee 0 0 0 210 0 Department Foreign and Commonwealth Office Foreign and 0 0 0 5,950 0 Commonwealth Office (exc agencies) Wilton Park Executive ..07070.. Agency Health Department of Health 60 0 2,180 2,180 3 (exc agencies)3 Food Standards Agency 20 20 770 770 5 Medical and Healthcare 10 110 860 860 14 Products Regulatory Agency National Healthcare 10 0 270 270 5 Purchasing and Supplies NHS Business Services 0 0 240 240 0 Authority (Civil Service only) Meat Hygiene Service 20 0 1,230 1,230 2 Home Office Home Office 500 .. 2,720 2,720 .. (exc agencies)3 Border and Immigration 0 0 19.290 19,290 0 Agency Office for Security and 0 0 250 250 0 Counter-Terrorism Criminal Records Bureau 20 0 480 480 3 Identity and Passport 160 0 4,010 4,050 4 Service Justice Ministry of Justice 970 0 3,680 3,680 26 (exc agencies)3 Scotland Office 0 30 60 Wales Office 0 0 50 50 0 Tribunals Service 140 0 2,840 2,840 5 Land Registry 0 0 8,020 8,020 0 National Archives 20 0 610 610 2 Public Sector Prison 810 0 49,970 49,970 2 Service HM Courts Service 150 0 20,830 20,830 1 Public Guardianship 0 0 310 310 0 Office International Development Department for 0 0 0 1,670 0 International Development Northern Ireland Office Northern Ireland Office .. .. 130 130 .. Security and Intelligence Services Security and Intelligence 0 0 0 5,320 0 Services WA 85 Written Answers[2 JULY 2009] Written Answers WA 86

Annex B Civil Service Employment: Profession by Government Department 12 Permanent employees Headcount Legal and Human Resources posts as All reported percentage of Human Resources Legal professions All employees known professions

Transport Department for 10 0 150 2,020 5 Transport (exc agencies) 3 Office of Rail Regulation 10 10 330 330 5 Maritime and Coastguard 40 0 1,180 1,180 4 Agency Vehicle and Operator 30 0 2,430 2,430 1 Services Agency Driver and Vehicle 0 0 0 6,440 0 Licensing Agency Driving Standards 50 0 2,700 2,700 2 Agency Vehicle Certification 10 0 130 130 4 Agency Highways Agency 0 0 3,510 3,510 0 Government Car and 0 0 0 310 0 Despatch Agency Work and Pensions DWP Corporate Services 400 390 5,650 5,650 14 DWP Shared Services 30 0 4,450 4,450 1 The Health and Safety 110 30 3,600 3,600 4 Executive The Rent Service 20 10 570 570 5 Child Support Agency 150 0 10,710 10,710 1 JobCentre Plus 870 0 73,320 73,320 1 Pension Service 70 0 11,670 11,670 1 Disability and Carers 30 0 6,260 6,270 0 Service Scottish Government Scottish Government 150 120 3,730 4,500 7 (exc agencies) Scottish Court Service 0 0 1,400 1,400 0 Crown Office and 40 460 1,560 1,560 32 Procurator Fiscal Service General Register .. 0 220 280 .. Scotland Communities Scotland 10 .. 320 360 .. Office of Accountant in .. 0 100 100 1 Bankruptcy Courts Group 0 .. .. 30 .. Office of the Scottish 0..4050.. Charity Regulator Scottish Buildings 0 0 30 30 0 Standards Agency Social Work Inspection 0 0 40 50 0 Agency Mental Health Tribunal 0..6080.. for Scotland Transport Scotland 10 0 190 250 3 Registers of Scotland 20 0 1,280 1,280 1 Historic Scotland 30 0 1,020 1,020 3 Scottish Fisheries .. 0 270 300 .. Protection Agency Scottish Agricultural 0 0 10 140 0 Scientific Agency Scottish Prison Service 150 10 4,000 4,000 4 National Archives for 0 0 140 150 0 Scotland Scottish Public Pensions .. 0 200 220 .. Agency WA 87 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 88

Annex B Civil Service Employment: Profession by Government Department 12 Permanent employees Headcount Legal and Human Resources posts as All reported percentage of Human Resources Legal professions All employees known professions

Fisheries Research .. 0 300 310 .. Services Student Awards Agency .. 0 120 140 .. HM Inspectorate of .. 0 170 200 .. Education Welsh Assembly 0 Welsh Assembly 0 10 5,680 5,680 0 Government ESTYN .. 0 100 100 .. All Employees 8,400 5,640 413,870 515,680 3

Source: Annual Civil Service Employment Survey Hong Kong 1.Numbers are rounded to the nearest ten, numbers less than five are represented by “..”. Question 2 The profession of a civil servant relates to the post occupied by Asked by Lord Avebury the person and is not dependent on any qualifications the individual may have. To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the 3 Includes Government Office for the Regions employees. Written Answer by Lord Triesman on 28 June 2006 4 Figures for the Office for National Statistics exclude field staff (WA 147), whether they will ensure that staff at the who were not Civil Servants at the reference date. British Consulate-General in Hong Kong receive Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach training on (a) the provisions of paragraph 6.2 of Annex H to Chapter 14 of the Nationality Instructions, To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the and (b) the statements made by the Indian Ministry Written Answer by the Minister for the Natural and of Home Affairs in paragraph 2(e) of their letter Marine Environment, Wildlife and Rural Affairs, dated 27 January 2006 sent to the Foreign and Huw Irranca-Davies, on 22 April (Official Report, Commonwealth Office (FCO) in response to a request House of Commons, cols. 698–700W), how many from the FCO, so as to ensure that those who permanent staff were employed in the Legal and became British Overseas citizens on 1 July 1997 and Strategic Human Resources group in each year were hitherto unaware that they are British Overseas since the establishment of the Department for citizens can acquire a British passport. [HL4548] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. [HL4472] The Minister for Europe (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): All those members of staff at our Consulate- General in Hong Kong who are required to undertake The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, nationality determinations as part of their job receive Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs formal nationality training provided by the Foreign (Lord Davies of Oldham): The Legal and Strategic and Commonwealth Office. Human Resources group was formed on 1 April 2008, when it comprised 205 permanent staff, of which 114 were legal staff, 53 were in HR and 38 were employed Housing: Energy Efficiency in other areas. Question The number of staff employed when Legal and HR were separate units was as follows: Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Legal HR Total To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will select the seven million homes to be offered whole- 30 Jun 2004 162 244 406 house upgrades with energy efficiency and micro- 31 Mar 2005 166 228 394 generation technologies by 2020; and whether priority 31 Mar 2006 159 209 368 will be given to the old, those on benefits, and those 31 Mar 2007 142 96 238 living in houses of multiple occupation. [HL4468]

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): We are The significant reduction in the number of HR committed to delivering our energy and carbon-saving staff between 31 March 2006 and 31 March 2007 is objectives in a way that is fair and that enables all due to the creation of the Shared Services Directorate consumers, particularly the poorest and most vulnerable, to which many HR staff were transferred. to reap the benefits of the move to a low carbon Information prior to 30 June 2004 is not available. economy. Our goal is for “whole house” packages of WA 89 Written Answers[2 JULY 2009] Written Answers WA 90 measures, including all cost-effective energy-saving Nepal measures, plus renewable heat and electricity measures as appropriate, to have been made available to all Question homes by 2030. We are now analysing potential delivery Asked by The Earl of Sandwich models and taking into account responses to the Heat and Energy Saving Strategy consultation. The outcome To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether there of this analysis will be presented in the finalised strategy are contingency plans for strengthening the United which we aim to publish by the end of the year. Nations Mission in Nepal in the event of any problems arising during the monitoring of Maoist soldiers in their cantonments. [HL4599] Housing: Home Improvement Agencies Question The Minister for Europe (Baroness Kinnock of Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach Holyhead): Nepal remains on the list of issues of which the UN Security Council is seized. The situation To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the there, and the UN Mission in Nepal (UNMIN), can remarks by the then Parliamentary Under-Secretary be discussed at any time should the circumstances of State for Communities and Local Government, require. Iain Wright, on 1 April (Official Report, House of The UN Security Council is kept informed of progress Commons, col. 299WH), what proportion of the in the peace process in Nepal and the implementation £17.5 million given to home improvement agencies of UNMIN’s mandate by regular reports of the in 2007–08 was spent in rural areas. [HL4470] Secretary-General. The council reviews UNMIN’s mandate, as well as any readjustments, on this basis. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, UNMIN’s current mandate expires on 23 July 2009. Department for Communities and Local Government & As such, the Security Council will be discussing UNMIN Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of this month. Luton): In 2007-08, administering authorities spent £17.832 million of their funding allocated through the Northern Ireland Office: Smoking Supporting People programme on home improvement agencies. Out of this total £4.929 million was spent in Question predominate rural areas and £4.430 million was spent Asked by Lord Laird in significant rural areas. So overall administering To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans authorities spent £9,359,120, 52 per cent of the total they have to discourage officials in the Northern HIA spend on predominate rural or significant rural Ireland Office from smoking. [HL4566] areas. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: A total smoking ban Human Rights was introduced in all Northern Ireland Office and NI Question departmental premises in Northern Ireland on 1 January 2005 and was extended to the London office in March Asked by Lord Laird 2005. Recruitment and advertising literature highlights To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in the ban and there are a number of measures in place view of the Government of the Republic of Ireland to encourage and assist smoking cessation. giving support in employment and living costs to Irish language speakers, they plan to further monitor Northern Ireland: Human Rights human rights in the Republic of Ireland. [HL4367] Commission The Minister for Europe (Baroness Kinnock of Questions Holyhead): The Government have no plans to monitor Asked by Lord Laird human rights in the Republic of Ireland. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of whether the Northern Ireland Marine Environment: Gibraltar Human Rights Commission has built confidence Question with both major communities in Northern Ireland. [HL4171] Asked by Lord Hoyle To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The Northern Ireland Written Answer by Lord Brett on 16 June (WA 201), Human Rights Commission was established by s.68 of what action they will take in relation to Gibraltar’s the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (“the Act”) and its application to the European Court of First Instance. statutory functions are set out in s.69 of the Act. [HL4593] Building confidence is not specified as a function of the Commission. The Minister for Europe (Baroness Kinnock of However, the commission is a designated public Holyhead): We remain deeply concerned about this authority subject to the requirements of s.75 of the issue and continue to examine Gibraltar’s case in Act to have due regard to “the need to promote equality detail to determine what action to take. I will inform of opportunity” and “the desirability of promoting good the noble Lord when a decision is made. relations”. To this end, the commission has developed WA 91 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 92 an approved Equality Scheme, prepares annual Equality The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Plans, and submits its Strategic Plans to full public Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs consultation and Equality Impact Assessment. The (Lord Davies of Oldham): The Committee on Toxicity commission is currently consulting on its draft Strategic of Chemicals in Food, Consumer Products and the Plan for 2009-11. Full information can be obtained Environment (COT) does not have a pharmacist as a directly from the commission or found on its website member. www.nihrc.org. There are currently two pharmacists on the Veterinary As set out in Schedule 7(5) to the Act, the commission Products Committee (VPC); one of these members reports annually to the Secretary of State on the also sits on the Medical and Scientific Panel (MSP), a performance of its functions during the year. Annual sub-committee of the VPC. reports are available publicly and copies are placed in None of the members of the Official Group on the Libraries of both Houses. Organophosphates (OGOP) is a pharmacist. Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Questions for Written Answer: Late Written Answer by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on Answers 16 June (WA 202), whether they have placed any restrictions in relation to the funding from Atlantic Question Philanthropies for the Northern Ireland Human Asked by Lord Jopling Rights Commission’s further work in advising the Government on a Bill of rights for Northern Ireland. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the [HL4448] Cabinet Office has a role in ensuring that departments answer Questions for Written Answer within 14 days; Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The Secretary of State and why that office has the three Questions, tabled for Northern Ireland approved in full the Northern in March and April, awaiting reply longer than any Ireland Human Rights Commission (NIHRC) proposal others. [HL4422] to access £110,000 of external funding from Atlantic Philanthropies. The Secretary of State considered that The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness the proposal was consistent with the statutory functions Royall of Blaisdon): The Cabinet Office has no role in of the NIHRC and that the receipt of such funding ensuring other departments answer Questions for Written would be consistent with the conditions set out in the Answer. The Questions referred to have now been NIHRC management statement. However, the Northern answered. Ireland Office (NIO) suggested to the NIHRC that one of the proposed projects was likely to involve nugatory work and invited the NIHRC to submit an Railways: Royal Train alternative project for consideration, within the scope Question of the total funding. Asked by Lord Dykes Copies of the NIO’s letter confirming these details to the NIHRC will be placed in the Library of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the House. annual fixed and running costs of the Royal Train; and how many journeys it made in the past year. Offshore Financial Centres [HL4657] Question The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): Asked by Lord Barnett The 2008-09 fixed and running costs for the Royal To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the Train were £0.8 million (2007-08: £0. 9 million). Fixed offshore financial centres which are British overseas costs were £0.5 million (2007-08: £0.4 million) and territories or Crown Dependencies. [HL4584] running costs were £0.3 million (2007-08: £0.5 million). During the year there were 14 journeys (2007-08: 19), The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury with an average distance of 696 miles per journey (Lord Myners): The following offshore financial centres (2007-08: 755 miles). During these journeys a total are British Overseas Territories: Anguilla, British Virgin of 19 nights were spent on the Royal Train (2007-08: Islands, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, 27 nights). Members of the Royal Family also made and Turks and Caicos Islands. The following are Crown 46 journeys in 2008-09 by scheduled rail (2007-8: 43), Dependencies: Guernsey, Jersey and Isle of Man. with an average distance of 165 miles per journey (2007-08: 146 miles). Organophosphates Question Taxation Asked by The Countess of Mar Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Asked by Lord Barnett pharmacists are members of (a) the Committee on Toxicity of Chemicals in Food, Consumer Products To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their and the Environment, (b) the Veterinary Products assessment of the opinion of the CBI that some Committee, and (c) the Official Group on taxpayers could face a marginal tax rate of 145 per Organophosphates. [HL4562] cent as a result of the Finance Bill. [HL4585] WA 93 Written Answers[2 JULY 2009] Written Answers WA 94

The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury Waste Management: Refuse Collection (Lord Myners): Section 35 of the Finance Bill introduces measures to prevent individuals from Question forestalling behaviour, ahead of the restriction of higher Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach rate pensions tax relief for those with incomes of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage £150,000 or over from 2011-12. These measures are of households are required to use a wheeled bin for designed to protect individuals making regular disposal of waste materials. [HL4397] (defined as quarterly or more) contributions into their pension. The example provided by the CBI would not The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, arise under these provisions since such increases in a Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs final salary scheme would be treated as protected (Lord Davies of Oldham): In England, of the 22.7 million pension inputs. dwellings, 63 per cent of them use wheeled bins for the collection of residual (black bag) waste. Sources: WasteDataFlow for municipal waste data; Valuation Office for dwelling stock figures. Taxation: Duchy of Cornwall Question Water Supply: Hosepipes Asked by Lord Dykes Question Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will consider applying a fixed rate of tax to the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they published earnings of the Duchy of Cornwall. will extend the power to ban the use of hosepipes to [HL4658] include the filling of private swimming pools. [HL4519] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Myners): The tax arrangements for the Duchy (Lord Davies of Oldham): In 2007 the Government of Cornwall are set out in the Memorandum of consulted on proposals to modernise the powers to Understanding on Royal Taxation, attached to the restrict non-essential uses of water. It was agreed that Report of the Royal Trustees published on 11 February the existing hosepipe ban powers would be replaced 1993 (HC464). with a new wider power that will increase the range of water uses which could be limited or prohibited when water resources are in short supply. Tourism The Government intend to bring these changes into effect through an enabling power in the flood and Question water management Bill. This would allow the Secretary Asked by Lord Steinberg of State to extend the uses of water that may be restricted under existing water company hosepipe ban To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many powers. The existing hosepipe ban powers apply only Israeli tourists visited the United Kingdom in 2008. to the watering of private gardens and the washing of [HL4582] private motor vehicles. The proposed legislative change is currently being consulted on as part of the draft flood and water management Bill. The Minister for Communications, Technology and The department has committed to undertake further Broadcasting (Lord Carter of Barnes): According to work to identify evidence of the costs and benefits of the 2008 provisional International Passenger Survey these changes. Any additional non-essential uses of figures, the number of visitors to the UK from Israel water that may be prohibited, which could include the was 162,000. Please note that all these figures are for filling of private swimming pools, would be added to visitors whose country of residence was Israel, the the legislation through an order, and would be subject number of Israeli nationals visiting in 2008 was 147,000. to parliamentary scrutiny.

Thursday 2 July 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Consumer Rights...... 27 Government Decontamination Service ...... 30

Correction to Commons Written Answer ...... 28 Turks and Caicos Islands...... 31 Veterinary Laboratories Agency: Annual Report and Forced Marriage ...... 30 Accounts ...... 32

Thursday 2 July 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan...... 65 Georgia...... 76

Architects: Fees ...... 65 Government Departments: Staffing...... 77

Azerbaijan ...... 66 Hong Kong...... 88

Bees ...... 66 Housing: Energy Efficiency ...... 88

Broadcasting: Analogue Radios...... 67 Housing: Home Improvement Agencies ...... 89 Human Rights ...... 89 Civil Partnerships ...... 67 Marine Environment: Gibraltar...... 89 Climate Change ...... 68 Nepal...... 90 Climate Change: Greenhouse Gases ...... 67 Northern Ireland: Human Rights Commission ...... 90 Cyprus: Property ...... 69 Northern Ireland Office: Smoking...... 90 Data Controllers...... 70 Offshore Financial Centres ...... 91 Education: Scholarships ...... 71 Organophosphates...... 91 Energy: Meters ...... 71 Questions for Written Answer: Late Answers...... 92 Energy: Nuclear Reactors...... 71 Railways: Royal Train ...... 92 Energy: Power Stations ...... 73 Taxation ...... 92 Energy: Renewables ...... 73 Taxation: Duchy of Cornwall ...... 93

Energy: Wind Farms...... 74 Tourism ...... 93

Financial Services Authority: Chairman...... 75 Waste Management: Refuse Collection...... 94 Fuel Poverty ...... 75 Water Supply: Hosepipes ...... 94 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL3328] ...... 71 [HL4082] ...... 75

[HL3330] ...... 75 [HL4165] ...... 67

[HL4065] ...... 75 [HL4166] ...... 68

[HL4080] ...... 74 [HL4171] ...... 90 Col. No. Col. No. [HL4201] ...... 71 [HL4499] ...... 66

[HL4338] ...... 73 [HL4519] ...... 94

[HL4339] ...... 73 [HL4541] ...... 72

[HL4342] ...... 65 [HL4548] ...... 88

[HL4367] ...... 89 [HL4562] ...... 91 [HL4566] ...... 90 [HL4368] ...... 69 [HL4582] ...... 93 [HL4369] ...... 69 [HL4584] ...... 91 [HL4370] ...... 70 [HL4585] ...... 92 [HL4371] ...... 70 [HL4593] ...... 89 [HL4397] ...... 94 [HL4594] ...... 70 [HL4410] ...... 71 [HL4595] ...... 70 [HL4422] ...... 92 [HL4596] ...... 70 [HL4429] ...... 67 [HL4599] ...... 90 [HL4448] ...... 91 [HL4600] ...... 65 [HL4455] ...... 76 [HL4628] ...... 66

[HL4468] ...... 88 [HL4629] ...... 66

[HL4470] ...... 89 [HL4636] ...... 67

[HL4471] ...... 77 [HL4657] ...... 92

[HL4472] ...... 87 [HL4658] ...... 93 Volume 712 Thursday No. 101 2 July 2009

CONTENTS

Thursday 2 July 2009 Royal Assent...... 323 Questions Energy Performance Certificates ...... 323 Disabled People: UN Convention ...... 325 EU: Financial Institutions ...... 328 Comprehensive Spending Review ...... 331 Parliamentary Standards Bill First Reading ...... 333 Five Statutory Instruments Motions to Refer to Grand Committee ...... 334 Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill Committee (4th Day)...... 334 Swine Flu Statement...... 354 Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (Violent Offender Orders) (Notification Requirements) Regulations 2009 Motion to Approve ...... 367 Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (Foreign Travel Notification Requirements) Regulations 2009 Motion to Approve ...... 371 Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill Committee (4th Day) (Continued) ...... 373 Grand Committee Welfare Reform Bill Committee (8th Day) ...... GC 95 Written Statements...... WS 27 Written Answers...... WA 6 5