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House of Lords Official Report Vol. 712 Thursday No. 101 2 July 2009 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT ORDER OF BUSINESS Royal Assent Questions Energy Performance Certificates Disabled People: UN Convention EU: Financial Institutions Comprehensive Spending Review Parliamentary Standards Bill First Reading Five Statutory Instruments Motions to Refer to Grand Committee Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill Committee (4th Day) Swine Flu Statement Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (Violent Offender Orders) (Notification Requirements) Regulations 2009 Motion to Approve Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (Foreign Travel Notification Requirements) Regulations 2009 Motion to Approve Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill Committee (4th Day) (Continued) Grand Committee Welfare Reform Bill Committee (8th Day) Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page £3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. The bound volumes also will be sent to those Peers who similarly notify their wish to receive them. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200809/ldhansrd/index/090702.html PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords £3·50 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords £525 WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords £6 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440; Lords £255 Index—Single copies: Commons, £6·80—published every three weeks Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS CUMULATIVE INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volume of House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN, compiled by the House of Commons, gives details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscription: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 323 Royal Assent[2 JULY 2009] Energy Performance Certificates 324 a comprehensive research project that is to be carried House of Lords out in two phases. The first phase will look at the operational effectiveness of the current arrangements Thursday, 2 July 2009. and the second at compliance and value for money. It is due to report finally in the summer of next year. I 11 am can tell the noble Lord that to date some 92,000 non-domestic EPCs have been lodged on the register, Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Bradford. so it is having some effect. However, there are issues around non-compliance which need to be seriously Royal Assent addressed. 11.06 am Lord Redesdale: My Lords, considering—I am sorry, a touch of swine flu, I think. I shall start again. The The following Acts were given Royal Assent: Minister says that he supports EPCs, but is he aware Geneva Conventions and United Nations Personnel that the newly formed Association of Property and (Protocols) Act, Energy Professionals, which represents home inspectors Business Rate Supplements Act, and domestic energy assessors, is taking the Government Saving Gateway Accounts Act, to judicial review and will probably launch a class Broads Authority Act. action because the Government have created two industries but, through their actions, have removed the need for DEAs and home inspectors? With the creation of the Energy Performance Certificates home energy assessor role, which is yet another layer, Question all the people who trained and who sometimes spent their life savings on it are now finding their role being 11.07 am taken on by other organisations. A press release from British Gas says that its meter readers will take on the Asked By Lord Dixon-Smith role. Can the Minister say whether this is a good use of government money, given that it could cost £70 million? To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have assessed the level of compliance with the requirement to provide energy performance certificates Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I was not for buildings being sold in the commercial property aware that there is a prospect of judicial review. If that sector. is the case, I should not say too much from the Dispatch Box on the issue. The number of assessors is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, for the market to determine. I acknowledge that people Department for Communities and Local Government & have trained to undertake these responsibilities and, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of obviously, the greater the compliance that can be Luton): My Lords, no assessment has been made. engendered, the greater the prospects for those people Energy performance certificates have only been required who are in the field. for all non-domestic buildings constructed, sold or rented since October 2008. Local weights and measures Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I declare an authorities are responsible for enforcing these interest as someone who lets property. As from the end requirements. We support them in carrying out their of last year—I think it was October—an energy duties by providing guidance and access to the EPC performance certificate has been needed for any property register and database. We will assess the level of that is available for letting. However, I am not sure I compliance later this year. understand what has just been said. Is it that the highly-qualified people are rather like expert surgeons, Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, I thank the Minister who can still do minor surgery and therefore there for his reply. A survey by National Energy Services would be employment for them in that sense, or is it reveals either almost total ignorance or disregard of that because they are so well qualified they can no the need for energy performance certificates in the longer do domestic work? What the noble Lord, Lord commercial sector. Energy performance certificates Redesdale, said was a little confusing. are the one really useful tool to come out of the Government’s regulation of the property market. Around Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the noble 11,000 accredited energy inspectors, largely trained at Baroness is right: from October 2008 any domestic or their own expense, are wondering why Her Majesty’s non-domestic property which is sold, constructed or Government encouraged them to undertake their training. let requires an EPC. The EPCs are generated by approved What steps are the Government considering to overcome assessors and different standards apply for those dealing this failure? with domestic dwellings and those dealing with non- domestic dwellings. They have to be accredited through Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I certainly schemes which are themselves approved by the Secretary support the noble Lord in underlining the importance of State, but the standards and expertise required of of EPCs because they play a vital role in energy policy. someone doing an EPC on a domestic dwelling would As I said in my response, we are proposing to assess not have to be the same as those required of someone levels of compliance later this year and have commissioned doing an EPC on a commercial property. 325 Energy Performance Certificates[LORDS] Disabled People: UN Convention 326 Earl Cathcart: My Lords, in the spirit of leading by Lord Morris of Manchester: My Lords, I am grateful example—something that, sadly, did not happen with to my noble friend and to Jonathan Shaw and Anne HIPs—can the Minister confirm that 100 per cent of McGuire for their unswerving commitment to ratification the government-owned commercial property that was of both the convention and the Optional Protocol. sold or let during the past six months, or since October Does my noble friend accept that implementing them if he would prefer, was properly marketed with an will succeed in proportion to the involvement of disabled energy performance certificate. people and their organisations at every stage of the process? Can we be assured of adequate resourcing for the implementation plan? Finally, by when does he Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, that is a very expect your Lordships’ House to have an opportunity interesting question. The answer is that I would certainly to debate this historic development? hope so. I asked those who briefed me about government buildings and the publication of DECs whether there Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I pay tribute was full compliance with that requirement. The answer to my noble friend for all the work that he has done I received is that there was a high level of compliance. over so many years for the cause of disabled people. I I hope that that is exceeded in the case raised by the agree that successful implementation will be achieved noble Earl. through a partnership approach that brings together Government, disabled people and the commissions Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, as that form the independent element of the monitoring this subject has come up very frequently in the past and reporting framework.
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