SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (Special Piovis/Dn$J Bill 358 (Sh

349 MattMB Under Rule 377 BHADRA 19, .1913 (SAKA) P/acss of WOIShjJ 350 (Special Provisions) 8171 industries, strengthen and widen the exist- Katni and Bina on a shorter and direct route ing flood banks to avert floods and thus save in public interest. the people of this area from recurring losses and release funds from coastal development The existing only train, namely, Ms- fund for the development of coastal area. hakoshal Express runs on a circuitious route thus taking several additional houes Incon- (viI) Need to fill up the vacancle. veniencing the commuters to reach their of managing Director and respective destinations. Moreover, once Chairman In the New Bank started as on Express Train, it has been of india urgently reduced to a passenger train stopping at various small stations and runs in variably SHRt MORESHWAR SAVE (Auran- late and is always packed beyond its capac- gabad): Sir, the New Bank of India a nation- ity alised ban~ has suffered a Joss of approxi- mately Rs. 10 crore in the financial year Thus, there is every justification for a 1989-90. It is learnt that the loss for the new train. I would, therefore, urge upon the financial year 1990-91. is even higher. Railway Minister to make a statement, regarding introduction of much a train during One of the major reasons attributable the current session itself. to this is the vacant posts of the Chairman and Managing Director since long. For the last 1 112 years, one of the Executive Direc- tors is heading the bank. The Reserve Bank 13.16 hr. of India, vide its July-1990 report, had indi- cated the said Executive Director and had PLACES OF WORSHIP (SPECIAL even recommended action against him. PROVISIONS) Bill-CONTD.

In the present scenario when further [English] loss by public institution cannot be accepted, there is a grave need to immediately inves- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now, the tigate into the various aspects of functioning House will take up further consideration of of New Bank of India. There is immediate the Places of Worship (Special Provisions) need to appoint a capable and responsible Bill moved by Shri S.B Chavan on the 9th outside executive as Managing Director and September, 1991. Shri Rajnath Sonker Chairman so that he can dispassionately Shastri may continue now. take suitable and drastic steps to set the bank on the development path. Only this will (Translation] lead to checking of malpractices of the bank. SHRI RAJNATH SaNKER SHASTRI (viII) Need to Introduce a newtraln (Saidpur): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, many between Jabalpur and Deihl points were raisedyesterday when I was speaking on this Bill. I am sorry to say that SHRI SHARAVAN KUMAR PATEL our friends said so many things but they did (Jabalpur): Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, eleven not try to know the reality. Yesterday, I was LokSabha MPs from Madhya Pradesh have saying that in Manusamrilithere are so many given a memorandum to the Railway Minis- such words, verses and couple~;which are ter on 26.8.1991 urging upon him to start a insulting to us. Manusmriti is considerad to new stain between Jabalpur and Delhi via be the representative scriptUI'8 of God in 351 Places of Kbtshp SEPTEMBER 10. 1991 (SpecIaJ PtovIslons) BiB 352

ISh. Rajnath Sonker Shastnl. censure. such as Ghuruh. Katwaru, Fekan. etc. These words are from Hinduism. Hinduism. After Manusmriti the most Impor- Manusmlrtl. These are the words quoted tant place is occupied by Maitriyanl Samhita. from our relaous scriptures. I had presented in which is written that a Shudra should not the Religious Scriptures Amendment Bin in touch the milt that Is to be offered to Gods in this very House In 1983. That time Shrl Atal oblation. and no -YBliJYa- should ba pre- Bihari Vaj)ayee and my friend Shri Phool formed in presence of a -Shudra-. Shatpath Chand Verma were also there in the House. Brahmin mentions that a Shudra Is inferior. Thattlmel had said that such Insulting words one should abstain from conversation with a should be expunged from the religious scrip- Shudra. he is just Ike a dog, frog and a cat. tures. The words which declare a person as So I say that the biU which has been pre- mean should be expunged, the people, who sented is directly concerned with all these were on the other side, remained silent. Not things also. In Panchvihnsh Brahminit is said a single person did utter any word. that a shudra has no rights. He Is profaned just Ike a cremation ground. This scripture is Sir. I would like to know that if there is the roof of Hindu religion and in this scripture a need to construct the temple and safe- it is mentioned that the property of Shudra guard Hinduism. why such words are not should be sanctioned without hesitation. In taken out not from the scriptures. Sir, when Aapstambhadharmjtra, it is also mentioned a discussion was going on in the House that a shudra is profaned just Ike a crema- during the Question Hour yesterday, one of tion ground. H somebody rapes a shudra our colleagues sitting there spoke about an woman. he should be given out of the village incident which took pia in Jhansi. A woman and if any shudra rapes a Brahmin woman went to Wuminate lamps on Shivaratri in he should be awarded death sentence. Jhansi .•. (IntetrUptions) ... That woman be- Such is our religious systems. Further it is longed to the class of untouchables and she written that a Shudra is just like a dog. VIShnu was raped and killed. This is what happened amriti says. that if a shudra oc:cupies a seat within the temple. Sir, the similar incident of this buiUocks should be chopped off. Maharashtra was discussed here. Perhaps you remember. I said that day that unless it Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, not only that. Is stopped, unless it is discussed, I will keep there is a strange thing written in Hindu on standing on one leg- in this House. Vou scriptures about names also. It is written that allowed three days and it was discussed for the narrie of a brahmin should being with three days. Sir, a Shudra had entered that auspicious words, such as Brihaspatinath temple and it was raining that day. So he had Upadhyay etc. Name of Kshtriya should begin gone there to save himself from the rains. with powerful words such as Veerbahadur But Instead of providing shelter he was stoned Singh. Tejbahadur Singh etc. to death. This Is the persons In regard to our temples. and we are going to construct AH HON. MEMBER: Such as OigYIjay temples. (lnt.m.ptlons) Sir. our hon. Mem- Sigh bar Shri Buta Singh is not present today. In 1984, while Jagatguru Shankaracharya was SHRI RAJANATH SONKAR SHAS- on hie ratha yatra In Haridwar, an untouch- TRI: Ves, .. Digvtay Singh. Lbwtse • the able touched his rath. (Chariot). As lOOn as name of a Yafsha should being with a word that untouchable touched his ratha.he w_ dencIing wealh and riches such .. Laxml- beaten to death there and then. It was dis· narayan. Kamrimal 8lc. But ,the name of a cussed in this House also. This Ie our Shudla should begin with Words denoting religion ••• hinduism. (1nt.m.pt/tJM) 353 P~sofMfo~h~ BHADRA 19.1913 (SAKA) (Sp«:iaI PfOvislons) 8iI 354

Sir. yesterday. my friend Umajl said slY', 'Chumrlv'. 'Kaahik', 'Chumun" etc. re- that by presenting this Bill we are adopting sisted his attempt to loot the tem."e. The indifferent attitude towards history. Hon. local brahmins and religious officials asked Home Minister is present here, he has· pre- them to go away from the temple as their sented this Bill. Our friends from that side presence would defile the sanctity of the said that an attitude of indifference is being temple. The forced the 'shUdra' caste people adopted towards history. But I want to tell to move away from that area as a result of these friends that we are not adopting an which Mahmud Ghaznavi looted and de- attitude of indifference towards history, I do stroyed the temple. not want to blame them. I want to tell them that they are adopting an indifferent attitude You must ac!mit this fact. If this Is your towards histOry. I want to present before you attitude towards religion then what will be its as incident of history. It is there in the history, consequences ..• that Alexander had invaded this country in 326-327 B.C. Alexander ~ad only 9 thou- (Interruption) sand cavaliers and Mr. Kuru, a leader of 60 thousand soldiers fought with him and when It Is true that the V.H.P. did not exist Shri Kuru fought with Alexander he and his then but it was making a beginning (Interrup- 60 thousand people lost the war. Alexander tions). You can read it yourself, find it out for want ahead with 9 thousand soldiers and yourself. (Interruptions) captured Kuru. Whose conspiracy was there? was there any Muslim at that time? How Sir, those who favour the construction Alexander was victorious here, how his 9 of the Ram temple should know the status thousand soldiers become victorious? In this given to temples in religion. Sir, the objective case also, there was the hand of those who of those Bill is to ensure that there is no had great faith in our scriptures, those relig- bloodshed in Ayodhya and people of various ious heads who were there because of communities live in harmony. Varna System. Sir, the place called 'Ram Janmab- Air, about 650 A.D. Mohd, Bin Oasim hoomi' is actually not the birthplace of Ram. had invaded this country. He had here with The fact is the Lord Rama appeared out of 12 thousand soldiers and Dahra the King of the 'Havan Kund'. Sir, hon. Members would Sindh fought against him with his 80 thou- be knowing this story so l.lhall not go into the sand soldiers. But even there a conspiracy details of** was hatched by the so-called various of religion. As a result of the deaee that was The place which is considered the birth- issued, King Dahar was captured alive and place of Ram had very few temples of Ram, Mohammad-bin-Oaslm cut him Into places before 15th century. At the time not much on the battlefield. importance was given to Ram.

Similar area the deeds of Mohamud Sir, it is said that Ayodhya is a dis- Ghaznavl. My hon, colleagues said that we puted place. In an article by Ramlila Thapar are trying to deny historical facts. But I would and in some other article also, I have read like to hightlight the fact that when Mahmud that Ayodhya was once part of Banaras and Ghaznavi attacked the Somnath Temple the even Lankas was part of estwhile 'Shudra' castes like 'kathr, • pear- Banaras ... (Interruptions) Even today Lanka

**Expunged as ordered by the chair. 3&S .,.",.,_, of....,. SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (SpecIal PIOVIs/Dn$J Bill 358 (Sh. Rajnalh SonIc. ~ (lrDtruptIons) -

is part of Banaras ••• (lntem.ptkms) ••• the MR. DEPUlY..sPEAKER; I request place called Ayodhyais not situated at Faiza- the hon.Members to go to their respective bad. seats.

SIr, let it be noted that Ayodhya In ( Inttll1l.ptlons) situated near the house of ~h Sanker Shastri who is a resident of Banaras and not MR. DEPUTV~PEAKER: I request where it is thought to be. This is what has the hen. Members and their party Leaders to been just said. What I want to say is that bring the House into proper order. Ayodhya is not In Falzabad, What has been said Is that Ayodhya and Lanka are both in (lnterruptJons) 8anaras. Theytakofwors~I..ordRama btl! Sir, where has their inteillge~ gone·· MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I request what Is the need to construct that Ram the hen. Members to go to their respective temple (lntetruptiDns). seats.

(EngIsh] (/nt9mfJfions)

At this'stage Shti Lakshmi Narain Mani MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The House _ Tt/pIIIhi and SOtIIfI athM lion. Members stands adjourned to meet at 2 p.m CIII1IB and stood nsar the Table 13.38 hra MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: May I .... quest the hen. Members to go to their respective seats. The LDIc Sabh/J-then adjourned til Four- teen of the Clock (lnten1.f'lbns) The LDIc Sabha ltI-aSSembledat one MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: This is the minute past FouftHn of the dock House which is bestowed with responsI)iIlty. I at aD any such allegation which is deroga- (MR. DEPUTY-SPt;AKER In the ChaIIJ tory is made, I wli go by the Parliamentary Procedura and such words wBI be removed. PLACES OF WORSHIP (SPECIAL PROVISIONS) BU-CON7D. (interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Kindly go to your respective seats. [English]

MR. DEPUTY·SPEAKER : I request MR. DEPUTY-8PEAKER: I request the hen. Members to take their seats• ..hon. Members and their party leaders to bring that Hou. into proper order. Shri Advani.

-&purved _ ordered by the chan:. S57 Plat»8d-~ BHADRA 11. 1913,(SAKA) ",r dill Provisions} BII 358

(Ttan8/at1on) an ordinary matter. 80% of the population in this country worships Lord Rama. SHRI DIGVLlAYA SINGH (Rajgarh): Your leader has .....ady has said It.

SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: Sir, I request you to [English] consider this Issue. I have requested Shri Sonkarto make amends otherwise I request SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA(Bankura): you to expunge the remarks. Why are you allowing debate on this?

SHRI LAL K. ADVANI(Gandhi Nagar): [English] Sir, I was not present in the House when something provocativewas said in the House. MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Firstly, the On the basis of whatever I heard, I can say derogatory words have been expunged. that it Is absolutely essential that Members Secondly, my request is that we should not rasped each others sentiments. Twoorthree lose 'patience. It is a democratic set up. days back to was mentioned that in a pro- People are at Iberty to express their views. gramme on Doordarshan or AIR mentioned But while using the words, you should not something improper was said aboutMauiana wound the feelings of others. That dip1o- Abdul Kalam Azad and objections were raised macy of using the words is absolutely neces- in the House. Thegovemmentmade amends sary. for that. I agree that today's incident is for more serious. I cannot think of a situation ... , Mr. Shastri, you have to conclude your where in any derogatory words are used speech within two minutes. against a particular person who is regarded as a historic figure or godman by • section of [ Translation) the society and thereby hurttheir sentiments. This situation would not have arisen if this SHRI RAJNATH SONKAR SHASTRI: had not happend. I think it would be better if Sir, I fail to understand in what way I have the concerned Members themselves make hurt the sentiments of my hon. colleagues. I amends. Otherwise, I would request you, am also a devotee of Ram. Members of my Sir, to expunge words which hurt the senti- family are staying in Varanasi. Cror8s of ments of t", masses of this country. people know that I have been working towards social upliftmentforthelast22yeaa [English] I too go to atemple.ltoo believe in God. I was only saying that hon. Shri Advani is senior MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I shall ex- and respected person. What I said punge the words if the words are darogatory was ••• (Interruptions) to the Parliamentary system. [English] [ Translation} MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Kindly have SHRI RAM NAGINA MISHRA (Pa- your seats. Everybody has sensed the pulse drauna): I am on a point of order. Just ROW of the House. Many people are involved. the leader of opposition referred to the Now many people have advised you. My derogatory remarks made about Maulan. request to you is, you kindly leave the topic Azad. As the newspapers and this House and make whatever suggestions you want to also condemned the incident. Sir, this is not, make. 1>hoI Ganwar Shudra Paahu N. V. Sab·Tadan K. AdhIkarI.. SHRI RAJMmI SONKAR SHASTRI: •• thlllI_ 01 the NCIDI'd 01 thia House. The whole nation I. a wItneIa to what .' 1l1li11 bound II» gMt • wtang irtpNaaion. hat.ken place In the ~UHandthewayW8 ThIa concerns my 1If.. Sir, I w_ ..... being challenged on the issu•• Tomor- ..,.... ~J. .. I have not made lOW,thecompiete details will become public. .., ...... 'amalloadevot.. I was given a threat that the moment I 01 RMI and .... Hin _much .. anyone ateppedoutofthe ParHam.nt House,lwouid ..... be trashed. Umajl threatened to· take re- venge in Banaraa.

SIr.my ... is In danger. (lnte~ SHRI RAM KAPSE (Thane): I am on a paint 01 Older. The horLDeputy-Speaker has SHRI GUMAN MAL LOOHA (Pail): ""'glwnhilnAIg. No comment can be Nobody has said all this. (interruptions) Mr...... accoIdllU II» the ruIea. onthat. But the Deputy Speaker. Sir... **( Interruptlon_) hDn..MambeIs. Mr. SOI_. is repeating the .... __ICe and he wanIs to justify I. I (EngIsh) .... I II cxammercing on ,our decision which is nat ••ad under the rulers. SHRI DIGVLJAYA SINGH (Rajgarh): Sir•. IR DEPUTYoSPEAKER: Shastriji. what is this? ,... be ifI.:iDu8 enough II» conclude. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: That Is also [TIa1IJIIfat1 being expunged.

SHRI RAJANTH SONKAR SHASTRI: (Interruptions) _1fI1.ch .. the ... one and rwas on the ...01 concIudk'if I. I was saying that my MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kindly have bon Ca ...... taking offence without your seats• .., fl ••!)f.. I was r..r.ring to religions ...... and ...... Same thing has (Interruptions) been _lIaned Vlllmld's "Ramayana' I .... , ...ned 11» ...... SmM and all other SHRI E. AHAMED (Manjeri): Sir, what- .Iigilua ...... which ... meant for all ever he has said, he should take back his ...... I.ord Rama women, 'Shudras' etc. words. (Interruptions) IID._their cliflily aI the hoIv ecr1Jturas. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I very strongly I would .. II» submI that in 1983• appeal to you. This is a house...... SIIri AcMni _ not a Member of this ...... had IlION ••caIIed 'Hindu ReIig- (interruptions) DIll ScIfpb.- and ~ fWgious Un- _ _...... _. Durfngthedebate on MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kindly have .. _ I ...... _the toIawing sen- yourseata• ...... T...... ,.. should be ex- .,.....t BHADAA 19. 1913 (SAKA) (8p«:/aI ptOVitJltlMJ _ 382

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable used by Shri Guman Mallodha. Members ... having avery vut.xperlence. lam aware that past Prtm. Mlnlaterare here. ( interruptions) pall Speak.... are here. _-MInisters of various St.... Speakers and Chairman ar. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: For every- aa here. I v.ry atrongly appeal to you that we thing there's a limit. For some minutes some Ihould run the HoUle on proper lin... exchange of words Is all right but the whole House should not be burnt Into ashes. I (IntemptlDns) request Shastrljl to pi.... conclude. Kindly cooperate with the ChaIr. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: If you are not preparedtohe., whom the Chalrthen appeal [ TIM.latIons] to? After all. you •• hear to de; justice to this nation. SHRI RAJNAllf SONKAR SHAS- TRI: Sir, before I conclude my speech. I (interruptions) would Ike to request the whole House and the hone Minister of Home Affairs. who is MR DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please have present here, that an hone Member belong- your sects. We should have patience here. Ing the B.J.P. , sitting at No.4 from here ... I have forgotten his name ••• openlychallenged (interruptions) me to come out of the House. He said that ~ince I was the culprit and. my limbs would (TIBlJSIation] be broken. (Interruptions)

SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: Mr. Deputy These words were clearly audible to aU Speaker. Sir. as I appealed earlier. I stin say in the House. (Interruptions) Had Shri Rabi that ••• (/nte"uptions) I am not Ray and some other oolleagues from this yielding ••• (Interruptions) Mr. Deputy side as also from the Congress (I) not pr0- Speaker. Sir, I appeal to you again on the vided me a cover, probably he would have very basis I appealed to you earlier, to ex- physically harmed me right here in the House. punge all that Shri Guman Mal Lodha has (Interruptions) Therefore I would like to bring stated In the House.(lntel'nf'llDns) it to the notice of the whol8 House that my life is danger and these people are out of kI me. SHRI SYED SHAHABUDDIN (Kishnan- In the evening , I will wai( down to Uttar ganj): Mere expunction will not do. He must Pradesh Bhawan, Where I am staying. If any tender an apology. (/nt8mf:JtlDns) untoward incident takes place with me or I am killed the whole House Will be respon- SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: I must say that sible. ..nee this reflects the sentiments of all (/nterruptkms) communities and f.. lings of an the hone Members this must be respected and recip- [English] rocated. There mU8t not be double standards. (~ns) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let Shastri; complete his speech. (EngIsh} [TransIdon] iIfi DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have already expunged words which have been SHR. KALKA CAS (KaroI)agh): Mr 38S Places of ~ SEPlEMBER 10, 1191 (Special PIOtlislons) BII 364

[Sh. Kaka DasJ MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have aI· ready told that immediately after Shastriji Deputy Speaker, Sir please listen to me, the completes his speech, Kalka Bas Ji can hon. Member has made a reference about reply? .. me. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAJANTH SONKAR SHASTRI: (TlBnslations) Sir, I am making may submission before the House. SHRI KALKA DAS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, When the House was MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please con· adjoumed ••• (lntertlf)tions) ..• Please listen to cIude your speech. me. When the hone Member made sudl remarks, I only said that there are many a [English) person in the House who show disrespect to Lord Rama. THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI S.B CHAVAN): Sir, since the hon. Therefore this august House should Member is apprehending fear. to his life. not be allowed to be used to Siainder Lord Govemment will definitely provide him allthe Rama. I want to make it clear that did not say protection that is necessary. anything else except this.

[Tl8IIsIaIion] [English}

SHRI RAJANTH SONKAR SHASTRI: I MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: He has am grateful 10 each and every hon, Member made his stand very clear. of the House for assuaging my feelings and the hone Minister of Home Affairs, for assur- [ Translation] ing me to give all protection to safeguard my life. SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA: I have heard what he said. He had threatened the SHRI PHOOL CHAND VERMA( hone Member that he would see him once he Shajapur): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir please comes out of the House. (/ntBrruptions) What also give audience to the hone Member of does an this mean? this side. whose name he has mentioned. ( /ntfHTU(Jtions) [English]

SHRI KALKADAS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr. Acharia, Sir. please give me an opportunity to make kindly have your seat. Shastrlji should pr0- my point of view clear as my name has been tection and the hone Home Minister has mentioned .•. (IntBITUptions) come forward to give all necessary protection to him. Secondly. our friends has told [English] that he has not used such words and h. has not threatened the hone Member, So, that SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA: Sir, if the mattar is closed now. life of a Member is threatened ~ the other Member of this House how it arose? •• [TtanSIation]

(/ntIHTUpt/ons) AN HON. MEMBER: Now he is not aes Places of Mbtshfl BHADRA 19,1913 (SAKA) (Sp«:IaJ Provisions) Bill 366 stating the factual-position. We all area wit- words I support this Bill and also express my ness, to what he stated in the House. (Inter- concern that this Bill must be passed unani- ruptions) mously. I think that if the Bill is passed unanimously it would open a new chapter in [English] the history of India

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: TheS~ed SHRI CHINMAYANAND SWAMI matter is closed why are you fighting over it? (Badaun): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,l am on It is being cooled down. I shall now reputed a point of order. Shri Sonkar has complained the next non member... just now that he has been threatened. I have also been threatened by Shri Kesri Lat, whose [ Translation] has just come from Bihar. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAJNATH SONKAR SHASTRI: [English] Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not con- cluded my speech yet. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I request all the hon.Members to observe certain disci- [English] pline in the House. Such of those Members who really want protedion- the Home Minis- MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kindly coop- ter is here - will be given protedion. erate, Shastriji. (Interruptions) [ Translation] MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: No use in SHRI RAJNA TH SONKAR SHASTRI: dragging on that issue. Mr Deputy speaker, Sir, people of all religions - Hindus -Muslims, Budhists, Christians (Interruptions) and Sikhs enjoy equal rights in this country and nobody has the right to hurt the religious .AN HON. MEMBER: I am on a point of sentiments of others. order.

Sir; Taj Mahal depidS the combination MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is no of Hindu as well as Muslim aJltur&. The art of subjed before us to raise a point of order Rajasthan too reveals the same. Each and now, After a", we are bestowed with heavy every place of this country has an imprint of responsibilities. The agenda before us is the combination of Hindu and Muslim cul- also too big. Somehow, some unhappy thing ture. Sir, ours is a country where exists unity has happened. It is called down. Let us in diversity. I welcome this Bill. The most proceed with cool atmosphere with proper significant factor of the Bill is the emphasis understanding and with love and affedion. laid on restoration of the situation that pre- Let us not carry on the bitterness in our mind. vailed on August 15,1947. It is for this purpose that the Bill has-been introduced and it (Interruptions) is a mder of great wisdom. The people of the country would not tolerate If hatred is MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kindly have spread and they are exploited for their being your seat. I shall now request Shri Dikshit or Scheduled Castes, Harijans, Muslims or proceed. Brahmins. All the citizens in this country have their dignity and honour.·With these ( Interruptions) SHRI DlGVlJAYA SINGH: Sir, after (English] the B.J.P. and Janata Del, It is the tum of to Congress the speak. MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : I tell you one thing. When the House is not sitting, If any MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I agree. words are exchanged, they do not go on Sorry that there is a mistake. You are the recojcf and the House .wlil not take cognI- next person to speak. zance of It.

(Interruptions) Further, about security, Professor, if you also apprehend It, the Home Minister is [TIMSIation] going to provide you sufficient security.

SHRI PAWAN OIWAN (Mahasamund): SHRI SRIKANTA JENA : Sir, the me- I have a point of order. (Interruptions) diators are apprehending it. The mediators really need more protection now. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER : At present there is no subject to raise a point of order. [ Translation]

[English] SHRI PAWAN OIWAN: I would like to say that the way Members in the House are SHRI S.B. CHAVAN: I wanted to say giving threats to one and an other and then something, Sir. (Intem.ptions).1 do not make demanding protection. I would like the hon. any distinction between Member of either Minister of Home Affairs to provide security this side or that side. Whoever apprehends to the country from communal forces which fear to his life, certainly the Govemment is are endangering the safty of this country. prepared togive him protection. (Interruptions)

SHRI SRIKANTA JENA (Cuttack): My [English] only apprehension is that the Home Minister should recruit more numbers of police per- SHRI OIGVLJAYASINGH (Rajgarh):Mr. sonnel immediately. (lntenuptions). Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the historic piece of legislation which has been (TlBlJSlation) brought by our Govemment here.

Sir, it was our commitment in the elec- SHRIKESRI LAl (Ghatampur): An alle- tion manifesto that we will protect all the gation has been leveled against me, kindly places of religious worship from 15th of listen to me. A controversy was going on August1947 onwards, and I congratulaleth. when I reached the spot and I advised the han. Home Minister to have brought It. Members to maintain Parliamentary dec0- rum. I also advised them that as a matter of Sir, it is unfo~nale, I am extremely courtesythey should win the hearts of peQpIe sorry to notice to what level our friends from in and also outside the this side and the other sides have gone down House •.. (tJtem.ptbns) The Member sitting according to the kind of debate that they on the other side said that Harijans have no have brough about. It is very unfortunate...... (Int.""",ions) He has challenged Our legal luminary like Honourable Lodhaji. althe Harten Members of the House. (lnttlf- the kind of word. that he used in his speech fIIIII/oM) y,sterday ••• (/nte"uptlons).- In hi. ,BHADRA 19, 1913 (&AKA) fSt»cilll PfDVIsions) S. 370

speech yesterday ••• ( Interruptions) I would confine my discussion only to the merits of the Bill and the background. It SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA : I have is a well~rafted Bill. It has taken into account quoted what Sardar Patel said, nothing more all aspects which ought to,be taken into ac- than that. (Interruptions). count. But I would urge .apen the Home Minister not to exclude the State of Jammu SHRI DIGVLJAVA SINGH: He said : and Kashmir frol., the purview of this Bil because ultimatley Jammu and ~hmir is a [ Translations) part of this country. Though I unde~nd the subject is in the concurrent list, Entry~. 28, Bum the Bill, tear it into pieces. we have passed other Bills in this Jiouse itself where we have not taken into account [English) this factor. I would urge upon the han. Home Minister to reconsider this decision and not This is no kind of intemperate language to allow our friends on this side to aeate a we are used to hearing from a' legal luminary kind of propaganda against this Bill. They like Shri Lodha. Sir, religion is a very per- would be exploiting 'this Bill for their own sonal thing. (/ntemJtions). Sir, regllgion"is a' political onds, which is quite obvious, seeing very personal matter. (/ntB"uptions). I am their performance in this House. That is why, not yielding, Sir. I did not interrupt him when I urge upon the han. Minister to reconsider it he spoke. (Interruptions). and extend it to the State of Jammu and Kashmir. SHRI SHIVENDRA BAHADUR SINGH (Rajnandgaon): Why did the han. Member 14.32 hr•• get up like this? (/ntenvptions).

[MR. SPEAKER in the Chailj MR: DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Mem- bers, In our rules of procdure. there is a Religious frenzy to which this country specific rule which says that if anybody wants has been brought to by our friends from the to interfere or intervene, the Member who is BJP and some of the fundamental Muslim speaking must yield. Then only, one can leaders is very unfortunate. This country has interfere. What ever they want to say, they paid the price. Thousands of people have stand up and talk without observing this pro- been killed; thousands of houses have been cedure. Is there any order In this House? burnt and property was looted.

Therefore,l request wery han. Member It is high time that responsible people that let us observe certain decorum. from all political parties should come to some kind of consensus where such fundamental issues are curbed and religious frenzy is SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: Religion is a curbed. very personal matter and no one In this country has the right to danounce anyone In The Vlshwa Hindu Parishad and BJP whom any person believes in whether It is have raised Ramjanam Bhoomi-Babri Masjid Bhagvan Ram or Mohammed or for that issue only after 1988. They saw in this issue, "'attar anyone. That Is why. you have very • vehicle to come to power. Ram Shfluwere ~htIy expunged the remarks made by the taken out. Funds were collected. I do not han. friend •• know how much money was collected ..• 371 Places of Worsh" SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (Special Provisions) Bill 372

[ Translation] MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Digvijaya Singhjl, I would request you to please speak on the SHRI RAJVEER SIr-'GH (Aonla): Mr. provisions of the Bill. Do not go outside ~f it Speaker, Sir, I am on a point of order. The Bill because time is very limited. introduced in the House has no refernca to Ram Janam Bhoomi or Lord Rama; it sug- SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: The whole gests to keep aside the issue of Ayodhya to House has been talking about everything decide the matter. Then why the Members except the Bill and you are asking me to are raising the Ram Janam ·Bhoomi issue confine to the Bill. again and again •.. (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER:· I would like you to be very relevant. MR. SPEAKER: Well, yesterday,· we SHRIDIGVUAYASINGH: Arethepoints had convened a meeting of the Whips and it of the other Members relevant? was decided in the meeting that this Bill should be passed by four O'clock. At three MR. SPEAKER: They are relevant. But O·clock. the hon. HOme Minister may reply. you should b more relevant. Therefore, may I request the hon. Members SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: Insinuations who are speaking not to touch upon those have been cast upon us. They have to be issues which are not really germane to the countered. topic. This is necessary because we shall have to do things in time. Now as far as the MR. SPEAKER: Please understand that Point of Order is concerned, that is a differ- we are interested in passing the Bill in time. ent issue. I am not giving any ruling on that. SHRI EBRAHIM SULAIMAN SAlT SHRI DIGVLJAYA SINGH: Yes. I only (Ponnani): I have a request to make. I must urge upon the hen. Minister to inquire into have a chance to speak. the funds collected by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad. MR. SPEAKER: You will have achance. But you will do it in a very able manner and be very brief. MR. SPEAKER: I am not allowing that. SHRI DIGVUAYA SINGH: It is my tum. Please come to the provisions of the Bill. Then there would be areply. Please come to MR. SPEAKER: Let us not waste the the provisions of the Bill. time. I have said you will have the time. SHRI DIGVLJAYA SINGH: They are (Interruptions) talking on the temple funds. (Interruptions).

MR. SPEAKER: You also take your MR. SPEAKER: Now, no cross-talk seat. f will give two minutes to each of you. please. I repeat my request to Shri Digvijaya Sin~~ to speak. SHRI DIGVLJAYA SINGH: I want to· lay the papers on the Table of the House. I have SHRI DIGVIJAYASINGH: Iwould abide given a notice also in writing. I have com- by you. I am the only Member who listens to munciated to the House yesterday only and you . . given a copy of the VlShwa Hindu Parishad pamphlet which has been taken up. MR. SPEAKER: How good you are. -As the ...... r did not subsequently accure the necessary permission, the paper was not treated as laid on the Table. 373 P~sofMfo~hp BHADRA 19. 1913 (SAKA) (Special Provisions) Bill 374

SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: Thefounda- SHRI SUDARSAN RAY CHAUDHURY tion-stone was laid as per the agreement (Serampore): Let everybody do that and the and discussions between the State Govern- Bill be passed. ment. .... SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: Shri Indrajit MR. SPEAKER: Leave that matter. Gupta has raised an issue. He asked whether those places which have been converted to SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: I want to lay any other use. have they been converted by the papers on the Table of the House. This is this Bill. Yes. They have been covered. very unfair. I have given in writing. Section 4 part (3) covers that aspect of that Bill. SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHURY Section 4 part (3) of the Bill says:- (Katwa): How can we know that that was the foundation stone? "Any dispute with respect to any conversion of any such place effeded before SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: I would re- such commencement by acquies- quest you one thing. This was being dis- cence-. cussed in the Private Members Bill. That is covered. The point raised by Shri Indrajit Gupta is fairly covered. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Digvijaya Singh. The point which I wanted to make was Far from me to interrupt you every now and that Commencement of the Representation then. I do not obstrud you whenever you of the People Ad is to be amended by this speak. It is very difficult for me to go on Bill. obstructing you. But you know all the hon. I totally agree with this. But I would urge Members in the House have agreed to upon the hon. Minister that the amendment complete the business by 4 O' clock be- in the Peoples Representation Act brought cause other financial business has also to in the Eighth Lok Sabha has proved ineffec- be comploted. Will you not take this into tive in curbing the political parties to use consideration nnd speak only on the provi- religion to ask for votes. I congratulate the sions of the Bill? High Court of Bombay which has taken up a number of cases and it has rightly decided in SHRI DIGVIJAYA~INGH: Allow me to such cases. I would like to point out to the lay the papers on the Table. I will speak hon. Minister that this will not suffice. The about it. hon. Minister should consider a more stringent provision in the Reprosentation of the MR. SPEAKER: That can be done only People Act also so that it becomes a deter- according to the rules. rent for all the political parties to use religion to ask for votes. SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: I have given in writing. Sir, the Election Commission is also seized of the matter of the symbol of the BJP. MR. SPEAKER: It can be allowed to be That issue also should be expedited be- done only according to the rules. cause it has been pending for such a long time. It, therefore, needs early decision. (Inter- SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: I would like ruptions). When all of my friends from that to lay the papers on the Table of the House side were talking all irrelevant things, I was which can be made a part of the proceed- fistening to them. I would only try to confine ings. my speech to this BiU: I would like to say that 375 Places of WotshfJ SEPTEMBE~ 10, 1991 (Sp9cIaI Provisions) BIll 376

ISh. Digvijaya Singh] 1;his Is the dhann. Thla Is the Hindu ethoa which should be understood. there could not be a greater devotee of Bhagwan Ram than Tulsi Das. I would only Finally, I would urge upon all Members like to quote one Kavithti of Tulsl Das which of this House to kindly confine their discus- is most relevant in the present context. With sion to the provision of the Bill as I have your kind permission I would Ike to quote it confined my discussion to It. I would also He said: urge upon them to pass this Bill unanimously and withdraw all their amendments. -Dhoot Kaho Avdhoot Kaho, Rajput Kaho, Julaha Kaho Kau, Thank you, Kahe Ki Beti Saun Beta Na Biyau, Kahu Ki Jati Bigaad Na Sau, [ Translation] Tulsi Sarnam Gularnuau Hai Ram Ko, Jake Sachai Sa Kahai Kutch Kau, SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHIT Maang Ke Khaibo Masjld Mein Soyibo, (Varanas): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would have Leve Ko Ekau Na Dewe Ko Dau.· restricted myseH to the Bill itself but keeping in view that an hon. Member of the House [English] quoted Tulsldas ji, I would also like to quote (Interruptions) This was Ram Bhakti, not the Ram Bhakti of today. (/nt8rruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Not more than what he has quoted. MR. SPEAKER: Shri Digvijaya Singh, I am not going to allow you to have the discus- SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHIT: sion on those lines. I would quote lesser than he did Tulsidas ~ said - SHRI DIGVIJAYA.sINGH: Sir, you have put me in a strait-jacket. I will abide by your • Jake priya na Ram baldehi, - decision. Tajiey tahi koti bairi sam, yadaypi par- amsnehi.· MR. SPEAKER: I cannot stretch the time. He quoted·Tufsidas ji, that is why I had to quote these line (/ntenvptions) SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: I would end my speech only with this: (English]

What is dharm? The Geeta has said: own convenience. This is no good. It Is no good to use Tulsi Das for religious purposes.

-Na Twaham Kamay. Rajyam, [Translation] . Na Swarga Napunarbhavam. Kamaye Dukh Taptanam, SURI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHIT: Praninam Aart Nashnam" Sir, I rise to oppose the Bill (Interruptions)

-I beg neitherforldngdom, nor heaven, (English) I only pray for peace to all human beings in miMry and pain.. I am not yielding. Sir, you have put me 3n Places of Worship BliADRA 19, 1913 (SAKA) (5p«;iaI Provisions) Bill 378 in a straltiaeket. I have to confine myself to ing forward this legislation. But we appre- the provisions of the Bill and Ionclude my hend that there is a design in this matter. If speech. I must point out why do we oppose we go through the hon. President's speech this BUI. we know that it is not the Prosident's view but the view of the Government and the Presi- MR. SPEAKER: You must do it within a dent is only a spokesman. So, when I criti- veri short time. cise or say something about the President's Address, I do not mean any disrespect to the SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHIT: President. I quote from Paragraph 9 which Ves, I will conclude within a very short time. says: Sir, we see in this Bill a particular purpose for which it has been brought forward. Now, let "It is a matter of serious concern me put forth my point of view. It is very that the forces of communalism unfortunate that in this country every Prime have been able to vitiate the at- Ministercreated a probl.Jm. The subsequent mosphere in the country leading to Prime Ministers, instead of solving thuse the out-break of serious riots in the problems, created a new problem. You may last two years. Government are kindly see this right through the time of determined to combat such forces Independence. Now, this particular Bill is and uphold the values of secular- going to create a problem. It is going to ism." create a problem for the country. And it has been mentioned repeatedly by various hon. W.; have nothing against this particular Members that, as it is, this country is facing ob:.crvation. But immediately the foHowing various problems and where is the necessity sentence brings our a different connotation. of bringing forward this legislation. It way~:

There is a provision in the Indian Penal "Government will not allow the rights and Code. There is a Chapter XV in the Indian interests of religious, lingui$tic and ethnic Penal Code relating to the Offences relating minorities to be compromised.- to Religion. In this, it is written: What does this obviously mean? In the first ·'njuring or defiling places of wor- sentence you are not referring to the minority ship communalism but you are referring to this with intent to insult the religion of majority communalism because in the sec- any class." ond sentence you say that you are going to protect the rights of the linguistic and relig- In tfiis Bill it is written: ious minority forces.

-Any conversion of any such place And subsequently, the next sentence effected before such commence- says: ment which is not liable to be challenged in any court, tribunal or other -A composite Rapid Action Force authority being barred by limitation will be formed and appropriately under any law for tho time being in equipped and trained to deal with force." riots-

The limitation is already there. I just do not May I know where was the necessity of using understand what was the necessity of bring- this word 'composite'? Are aD forces of this 379 Places of WalSh., SEPTEMBER 10,1991 (Special PfOvisions) BHI 380

[Sh. Shreesh Chandra Dikshit] passed, it will have very objectionable provisions. country not composite? Is the Army not composite? Are the para-military forces not [English] composite or are the police force not composite. We see some design in this word It was the first step towards that. There- ·composite'. (Interruptions) fore, we are opposing this Bill.

SHRI DIGVLJAYA SINGH: This is very [ Translation] unfair. He is quoting irrelevant matter. (Inter- ruptions) We don't know why Jammu and Ka- shmir has been excluded in this Bill. When SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHIT: Jammu & Kashmir is called as an integral You allow me to quote. part of the country then why this Bill is not being implemented there, where a lot of MR. SPEAKER: Your time is very lim- Hindu temples had been demolished? That ited. is why, we oppose the provisions of this Bill. We oppose it because Jammu & Kashmir (Interruptions) has been kept out of ttiis Bill. We have history before us. [ Translation] [English] SHRI LAKSHMI NARAIN MANI TAIPA- THI{Kasarganj):Mr.Speaker,Sir,weshould The History was Pandora's box. get full time to speak. We obey all your orders. You may increase the time, bUt we [Translation] should get full time to speak. (Interruptions) You can quote any history today. [English] [English] MR. SPEAKER: It is not necessary. The present cannot be denied. (Inter- (Interruptions) ruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Do not complicate the SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: Sir. I am on matter unnecessarily. a point of order, you have confined my speech to certain protions. Now, the hon. Member is (Interruptions) showing some photographs. Has he taken your permission to show them to you? [ Translation] MR SPEAKER: I approve his point of order. These things cannot be shown in the SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHlT: "louse. Reference has been given in this Bill from paragraph 29 of the President's Address. [Translation] (Interruptions) SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHlT: Due to this reason, we think if this Bill is At present no dispute is going on about any 381 Pl4ctls of WOlShi' BHADRA 19,1913 (SAKA) (Spscial Provisions) SOl 382 temple. This Bill has only been brought, to them. You have to speak on the provi- because, besides the Ramjanam bhoomi, sions. the Vishwa Hindu Parjshad had said about other two temples ai$o-Kashi Vishwanath (/ntenvptions) Temple and Krishna Janambhoomi temple in Mathura. Though, you have excluded the [English] issue of Ramjanam bhoomi from this Bill, but you have written in it that this issue will be SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHIT: solved through negotiated settlement. I am This is very important thing showing these photographs, because an han. Member had said here that if it is proved [ Translation] that mosque has been constructed by demolishing any temple, we will be the first. An han. Member had said yesterday that it person to demolish that mosque. It is proved has been written on the Kashi Vishwanath from these photographs. Temple that downtrodden Scheduled Castes cannot go inside it. I challenge this statement [English] and I would like to read whatever is written on the temple. This House has been misled. If I MR. SPEAKER: Those photographs am not telling the truth, I should be puniShed. should not be shown here. If that hone Member has not told the truth and has misled the House, he should apologise. [ Translation] It is written there ... (/ntenvptions) Please listen to what is written there. It has been SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHIT: written in four languages. In Sanskrit, it is I have proof. It is proved from these photo- written: graphs. That hone Member has said that if a mosque has been constructed by demolish- ·Arya dharmattranam pravesho ing the temple ... nihhidha·. (Interruptions)

[English] [English]

I am telling you the factual position SHRI SYED SHAHABUDDIN (Kishan- (/ntenvptions) ganj): Sir, I am on a point of order. You have just now ruled that nothing except which is [ Translation] directly related and relevant to this Bill shall be allowed. (Intenuptions) MR. SPEAKER: Please don't be wor- ried.1t will not be proper, if you rise again and MR. SPEAKER: My ruling is that this is again from your seat. If there would have relevant. been time, I would have given you time for everything. Please leave It on us, we win see (Interruptions) . to it. SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHIT: MR. SPEAKER: PI~e understand that An hone Member has said In this very House .•. time is a very very valuable thing. We have many other Bills to pass. If you do not allow [EngliSh] the Bills to be passed, then it will be very diffICUlt. MR. SPEAKER: You do not have reply (Interruptions) 383 Places of Wotshf:» SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (Special PlOvisionsj Bill 384

SHAt SYED SHAHABUDDIN: Sir, you positive secularism. We do not believe in are going against your ruling. minority appeasement which has resulted in the division of this country, which we cer- MR. SPEAKER: I have ruled that this is tainly will not tolerate. relevant. I Translation) [ Ttanslation] We think that the intention behind bring- In Sanskrit, it is written: ing this Bin is minority appeasement and not secularism we are prepared to have a na- -Arya dharmattranam pravesho tional debate on secularism. We have a lot of nishidha"- doubt about this Bill. This Bill is going to give rise to a very critical situation. I would like to [English] say a thing here. Don't take it otherwise. The Vfshwa Hindu Parishad has passed a reso- "Gentlemen not belonging to Hindu re- lution in this regard. At present, the Vishwa ligion are requested not to enter the temple.- Hindu Parish ad is agitating for religion and .not for literary or political demands. When [ TtanslationJ we start any agitation, a situation develops and the best way to tackle that situation is not In Hindi, it is written: to play with feelings of the Hindus. Through this Bill it appears that the feelings of the "Gentlemen not belonging to Hindu re- Hindus have been played with (/ntenvp- ligion are requested not to enter the temple." lions) .•. Those who want to see the might of the Hindu society (/ntenuptions) It was said The same is written in Urdu also (/nter- . here that when the Ram-Tample will be ruptions) constructed, they will go there and agitate. We welcome them. But I would also like to SHRI RAJNATH SONKAR SHASml: tell them that such type of language has What does it mean by not belonging to Hindu been used earlier also. religion (Interruptions) [English] SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHIT: An effort is being made to mislead the House. MR. SPEAKER: This is not again on the That is why we are opposing this Bill. WE provisions of the Bill. I did not allow the other have seen that the Britishers have become hon. Member. Please conclude now. successful in aeating a rift between the Hindus and the Muslims. The Government, [ Translation) which Came after them in this country, also created friction between the Sikhs and the SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHIT: Hindus. The same thing is also taking place At present, I would only like to say that a big today. Such type of Bils are being brought to agitation win take place on this Bill and they create a rIt between the Hindus. Therefore, can take this as challenge (Interruptions) I we are opposing this Bin. This is a policy of am not giving a threat to anyone. appeasement and we believe in secularism. [English) IEnglish] Mr. Home Minister said that this is our ..... ~ •• ---'!- _'- ___•• _&l__ n. ... ~ ...... et""" "" that if thilll 385 P~esofMfo~h~ BHAO~ 19. 1913 (SAKA) (Special PlOvisions) Bill 386

Bill is passed. it will lead to such an agitation four decades back. It WatHn April. 1950, atter in this country that will be very difficult to mischievous plantation of idols inside Babri control. Therefore. with all my force and with Masjid in 1949 that Oaumi Ekta convention all my persuasive power I request the han. was held, presided over by Pandit Sunder Govemment and the han. Home Minister to LaJ.ltwasAcharyaNarenderDevwhomoved kindly reconsider this Bill. Otherwise this is a resolution to have a legislation to maintain going to lead to a very serious law and order status quo of all places of worship as existing problem. on 15th August, 1947.

. SHRI EBRAHIM SULAIMAN Mr. Justice Lodha says that Pandit SAIT{Ponnani): Mr. Speaker Sir. I welcome Jawahar La! Nehru did not bring such a this Bill which has been taken up for discus- legislation, Shrimati Indira Gandhi did not sion - the Places of Worship (Special Provi- bring such a legislation Yes. but such a sions) Bill. 1991. grave situation did not exist !hen. Disruptive forces were not so strong as to shatter the I consider this as a positive step in the solidarity of the country. Today Thest fascist right direction. This is a momentous Bill. a forces. They are playing politics by mixing historic Bill which will deeply influence the religion. Such a situation was not there then. destiny of the entire nation in a constructive Therefore. this Bill was not brought forward manner for centuries to come. There could at that time. not have been any other better cut-off date for legislation to maintain the status-quo of Now coming to various clauses and all places of worship than 15th August 1947. sections of the Bill. I must say that categori- This was the crucial day when a long struggle cal declaration in section 4. sub-section 1. is and sacrifice brought fruit and we achieved the basis of this Bill. This is a momentous independence. Therefore. there can be no and most welcome declaration. I quote: other date greater than this in the entire history of our country. -It is hereby declared that the religious character of a place of worship I am happy that the promise made by existing on the 15th day of August. the Indian National Congress in its election 1947 shall continue to be the same manifesto and reiterated by the President in as it existed on that day." his address to the Parliament is being implemented today by the Government of this This is really the foundation of the entire Bill. country. I gratefully remember our discus- This is what we demanded for the last so sions last April recall how gracefully led by many YGars so that we could have harmony, Shri P.V. Narasimha Rao. I support this Bill and integrity of the country could be pro- because I am convinced that it will strengthen tected. Now this Bill has come it is therefore secular foundation of our Constitution. a historic day. I am sure this Bill which is cement communal harmony, protect integ- going to be passed and is going to be passed rity and solidarity of the country and estab- today unanimously creating history. lish goodwill among different sections of ( population. I hope it wili put an ond to all MR. SPEAKER:. Please conclude. controvorsies and prevent fascist forces from exploiting tht:l s;!ua:lon fortheir political gains. SHRI EBRAHIM SULAIMAN SAlT: Sir, you have given hours together to others. It is a fact of hi~tory that a Bill was Please spare some more minutes for me envisaged by groat patriotic national leaders bocauso we are discussing very impOrtant 387 Places;q{t¥fwshj.t SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (Special Pmvislons) Bill 388

[Sh. Etnh~an Sait] which have been taken over as historical monuments. sections of the Bill. and I have many more points to make. .Looldrig at some other· The other most Important matter is that sections of the Bill. I must say that there are as far as section 5 of the Bill Is concerned, it shortcomings which have to be rectified and should be deleted because this keeps Babri some sedions are such that deserve to be Masjid out of the purview of the Bill. I cannot delated. understand why this exception. We desire that all disputes should be settled for com- Sub-section of section 2 categori- plete peace and tranquillity and have all caDy says: controversies buried once and for all and put the country on the path of peace and prog- "Conversion include alteration orchange ress. of whatever nature;- This is particularly important In the fact But section 3 restricts this. This iscontra- of sinister designs and aggressive intentions diction. I would quote section 3 which says • against all principles of law and justice of no person shall convert any place of worship BJP-HVP-RSS axis which is creating deep of any religious or any s8cti0n thereof into a apprehensions and all peace-loving, secu- place of worship of a different section of the lar-minding people feel deeply perturbed by same religious denomination orof a different this. The entire Cabinet of the Government religious denomination or any section of UP went to Ayodhya to take pledge to thereof". demolish Babri Masjid and to acquire the disputed land forthe purpose of constructing Now what about conversion of a place the temple by issuing ordinances. Declara- of worship to dwelling place, cattle-shed or tions are made to start Kar Seva without title automobile workshop? In case a place of right on the land and without any approved worship is converted into a cattle-shed or pian. This is again against the injunction converted to a dwelling place or converted to order of the Allahabad High Court. This is an automobile. workshop, and does not get also against the policy of the Central Gov- protection under the Bil. and such place ernment to protect the Babri Masjid, and will remains converted to something. else, then lead to a confrontation between the State the whole object is lost and this BiD is going and the Center. Moreover. VHP has given to be a farce. calls for country-wide stir and directs Bajrang Dal and Durga Vahlnl to take to streets all There i& one inOre thing.' Sub-section 3 this means that the crisis is fast moving of section which is about the places taken towards a climax. This is quite an alarming over by archaeological dept as National' situation and such a situatlon should not monuments .. of the Bin is irrelevant and this allowed under any circumstances. How long should be deleted. can we be constantly humiliated like this and how will these fascist go on dictating. Almost all the places of worship taken over by the Archaeological Department as Now, in case Sabri Masjid is sought to national monuments should be maintained be kept out and Section 5 is not deleted. the as mosques and Muslims should have right responsibility of the Central Government and of prayers and should have protection under all the secular forces becomes hundred-fold. the Bill. I canoot understand why this BiD We have thrown our lot with secular forces. should net apply to all such places of worship I have said it and I reiterate it that we have 389 P__ d WolSh" BHAORA19, 1913 (SAKA) (SpflciatPtrwitllons) 811 390 thrown our lot with secular forces. And we little time. beciwse I rise to suppert this Bill. stand by them to protect secularism and Already a lot of things had been said in its integrity of the Country. We do not desire support and I do not want to repeat them. But confrontation but desire a peaceful settle- somethings had been said here, which, I am ment on the basis of justice, law and Consti- afraid. are going to create some wrong no- tution. In this situntion, the Central Govem- tions not only in this House and in this ment has not only to be extra vigilant but has country, but in the entire world also. A provi- also to make its intention absolutely clear sion has been made in this Bill to maintain and categoricaHy declare that they will never the status-quo of all the religions places as it succumb to any pressure from fascist forces was before 15th August, 1947. The views of subversion and uphold the rule of law and expressed before this house has particularly secular character of our country. mentioned about it.

Sir, I ap-;reciate the speech made by my [ Translation] colleague, Shri Mani Shankar Aiyar and I reiterate the fact that our country is a cradle Time and again, references have been of various has great religions and cultures. made in the speeches to the mosque near Indian culture is the common heritage of Kashi Vishwanath temple at Benaras, the Hindus and Muslims and both have jointly mosque of Mathura which is situated near contributed for the same. India is a multi- the birth place of Shri Krishna and the Babri religious and multi-cultural country. We have Masjid. to learn to co-exist and should have tolerance and goodwill for each other. Otherwise Mr. Speaker, Sir, regarding Babar, it is there can never be peace and progress. said that the foundation of Babri Masjid was laid by Babar ... In conclusion. I earnestly hope that secular forces of parties like JO. NF and Left MR. SPEAKER: It does not exist in this. Parties will rise to the occasion and unitedly I did not allow either him or Dixitji for that defeat the designs of fascist and disruptive matter. forces and save the country from chaos and protect integrity of the country. This is·our, SHRI MOHAMMAD YUNUS SALEEM: joint responsibility. Did you not allow them?

Let us. at this critical hour. do our na- MR. SPEAKER: You must have heard tional duty and pass this bill unanimously about the subject of discussion while sitting and create history. here.

Finally. let me join my dear colleague, [Eng/ish] Mr, Indrajit Gupta in appealing to my friends of BJP to join us all in passing this Bill We are not discussing Babri Masjid and unanimopsly and start a new phase of toler- Ram Janambhoomi. ance and harmony so that all of us can live in peace. [ Ttanslation]

[ Translation] SHRI MOHAMMAD YUNUS SALEEM: Babri Masjid has been exempted. The dis- SHRI MOHAMMAD YUNUS SALEEM cussion at great length on this topic took (Katihar): Mr. Speaker. Sir, I will take. very place. Yesterday throughout the whole day. 391 PIat:ea fJI...,. (Sh. Mohammad YlI'lUS Saleem] this book is Dr. Pattabhl Sltaramayya and Its title is -Feathers and Stones-. On page 177. you ..... not .....nt here but I was present he hal written a few lines about mosque and aI along and did not go out of the House temple. I consider It necessary to read these __ for a single aecond and a number of In.. because a confusion has been created 1hings..aatedto BabrlMasjid was discussed. here that the mosque has been constructed Please pay your attention to what I am say- by demoUshing the temple by the Order of ing. • I am saying anything irrelevant. you Aurangzeb and thus the facts of the History can ask me to quit the House. I do not have have been distorted. The people of this side ... habit 01 speaking irrelevant. I do not want are of the opinion that we are making efforts to wast. ~s time. Whatever I say to twist the History. I wish to u.'ge that it is would be relevant and important. I know very important to bring the facts of the His- what I should say and what , should not I tory before the House. I wiD conclude by only want to say that this point that Babarhad reading a quotation only. constructed this mosque. is incorrect. I have 8anamama with me (I~) [English]

IEIJ9Ish) -In the height of hisglory, Aurangzeb like any foreign king In a country MR. SPEAKER: Is this relevant to the had in his entourage a number of .&II? Hindu Nobles. They .all set upon one day to seethe sacred temple of SHRI MOHAMMAD VUNUS SAlEEM: Banaras. Amongst them was a lis YrI much relevant. Ranee of dutch. When the party returned after visiting the temple, MR. SPEAKER: I am not allowing it. the Ranee was missing.- You leave that point. MR. SPEAKER: Are we discussing the SHRI MOHAMMAD VUNUS SALEEM: character of Aurangzeb? • you do not aIow •• 1wi not insist on it. I will obeyyaurn61g.1 do not ....toquarre' with SHRI MOHAMMAD YUNUS SALEEM: you. No Sir. Weare discus~ing whetherthe places of worship which existed on 15 August 1947 MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. with a particular religious denomination viz. mosque or temple should be allowed to (T,.,sWlM] continue as they are, or whether they should be allowed to be demolished or replaced by SHRI MOHAMMAD YUNUS SALEEM: places of worship of other religions. That has Mr. _.11 .. SIr. therufter • Lady Member been the subject matter of discussion. For flam .. USe 8IIongIy advocated that she this purpose only this BiU has been brought ...... V..... andwas fuR of angerto before the House. Yo~ must be knowing. Sir• _ ...... ing 1here although It it is not • secret. that th .... has been • _ ...... If tJIIIlliM and she wanted to mention of thr. places; Sabri Masjid. VISh- PRMt IMIIDre the House that Aurangzeb wanath Kashl Temple and Mathura Idgah. CDnIInIctId ..MoIqI_bydemolishing the Therefor., it is very much relevant that light ...... thus comrnIted a great crime should be thrown on this subject because a .... 1fftdIes. ... not .., anything In this mlsundenltanding Is beingcreatedthat it is a ...... abaakwllh .... The author of mosque which was constructed by demon· 3e3 PIttcH of Wotsh" BHAORA 19,1913 (SAKA) (Sp#ICiaJ Provisions) Bill 394

tion of a temple. So, It must be restored, written by me. I am not the author of it. Mosque should be demolished and permission should be given to Hindu community to [Tl8IIslation] build a temple thereon. I would very respectfully submit that it Is very much relevant, KUMARI UMA BHARTI (Khajuraho): It otherwise I would not have wasted the pre- implies that you have also admitted that the cious time of the House. mosque was constructed after demolishing the temple. So,I was quoting from the Book, Feath- ers and Stones: [EngHsh]

'When the Party returned after visiting SHRI MOHAMMAD YUNUS SALEEM: the temple, the Ranee of Cutch was An eminent historian. missing. They searched for her in and out, East. North. West and South but no trace of her was noticeable. At last the SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHIT: more diligent soarch revealed a Tah Sir, I am on a point "of order. When I was Khan., and underground storey of the referring to show that the terople was demol- temple which to all appearances had ished and the Masjld was constructed on the only two storeys. When a passage to it ruins of the temple and I had the photo- was found barred, they break open the graphs to show and to prove that it was the doors and found inside the pale shadow temple which wnsdemolished and the masjid of the Ranee bereft of her jewellery. It was built on the ruins of the temp!e. tumed out that the Mahands were in the habit of picking out wealthy be jewelled MR. SPEAKER: What is out of order? pilgrims and in guiding them to see the You do not raise the previous things. What is temple, decoing them to the under- out of order in his speech? ground caller and robbing them off their jewellery. What exactly would have SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIKSHIT: happened to their lives one does not The out of order in his speech is that. know. Any how, in this case there was no time for mischief, as the search was [ Trans/ation] diligent and prompt. On discovering the wickedness of the Priest Aurangzeb You have not permitted me to e)lhibit the declared that such a seene of robbery photographs and he is quoting the page after could not be the house of God and page of the book. ordered It to be forthwith demolished and ruins were left the,e. But the Ranee whowasthussav~insisted on a Masjid [Eng/ish] being buill on the ruins and to please her. one was subsuquently built. That is MR SPEAKER: You cannot challenge how a Masjid has come to exist by the the ruUng of the Speaker because I shall side of the Kashi Vishwan31h Temple have to explain everything to you. What I did which iF no more a temple.- not allow was the exhibition of the ph0to- graphs. When you referred to the rnasjid near the Kashi Temple I did allow you. I aver So, Sir, the Masjid was constructed at ruled Mr. Shahabuddin. We don't discuss the instance of RQt\e8 of Cutch. History is not things like that. Please take your seat. SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (SpecIal PtoVisions) sm 396

[TransIaIion] should not be converted Into a residential house. It should not be converted into a SHRI MOHAMMAD YUNUS SALEEM: place for running any office. The same Incident was explained by.Or. Pandey a Memberof Rajya Sabha -at Khud- Therefore, I am proposing to the hone IIlbak.sh Library in his speech when he was Home Minimerto consider the advisability of the Govemor of Orissa. I do not want to go adding these words after the word 'hereof into the details. I would like to request the "or for any other purpose whatsoeve". That hone Home Minister that he may kindly con- will serve the purpose. Because, if you consider a little amendment in this Bill since it is fine to this paragraph only that the religious very important. I am reading clause 3 of the, places will not be converted into any other Bitl. religious place. then it may be converted into a place for some other purpose. Then, the [English] very purpose of this Bill will be defeated.

"'No person shall convert any place of Therefore, I respectfully submit to the worship of any rertgious denomination hone Home Minister that he should consider or any section thereof into a place of this question. I am not going to take more worship of a different section of· the time of this House. I thank you very much for same religious denomination or of a having given me time to speak here and I diff~rent reflgious denomination or any strongly support this Bill and I request this section thereof.· House also to pass it unanimously.

I am requesting the hone Home Minister [ Translation] to consider the advisability 6f a:lding these words after 'thereof "or any Tomb, grave- SHRI ASHOK ANANORAO yard, Cemetery or Cremation Ground.· OESHMUKH (Parbhani): Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Bill which has been moved in this august Because, there is a dispute regarding House is a black Bill. It will be proved inaus- Taj MahaI. It is a tomb. It is not a place of picious for the country. As such, I oppose it. worship. Nizamuddin Aulia's tomb is a tomb, Sir,l am going to give the factual position and it is not a place of worship. Humayun's tomb therefore if anyone finds it unpleasant he is a tQmb, it is not a place of worship. Babar"s should not protest and If anyone finds it good 10mb is a tomb, it is not a place of worship. should also not commend it. I request you to These are all tombs. They should also be give me a patient hearing. preserved In the same way as they are preserving the places of worship. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I understand' that Congress Party is supporting this Bill owing So,I request the Home Ministerto kindly to the reason that ~ had mentioned in consider this. It is not only the question that their Manifesto thai the position on 15th a place of worship should not be converted August 1947 will be restored. As such they Into a place of worship of a different section are functioning as per their manifesto but Mr. of the same religious denomination or of a Speaker, Sir, why have they kept Jammu & dlferent religious denomination or any sec- Kashmir separate from the purview of this tion thereof but it should not be converted Bill. In Jammu & Kashmir scores of temples into a place for any other purpose aIsp. It have been demolished tut this fact has not should not be converted into a college. It been mentioned in this Bill. I therefore 0p- should not be converted into a school. It pose it. 397 Places 01 WolSh" BHADRA 19, 1913 (SAKA) (Special Provisions) Bill 398

MR. Speaker, Sir, the second reason We have always lauded those Muslim forees for opposing this Bill is that, the pre-Inde- who have stood for the country's unity. They pendence names of streets and residential fought along with ~s ~he country's freedom colonies havebeen changed afterinde~nd-: fight. When they raised the demand for enceand have been renamed after the names Pakistan, we gave it to them considering of the stalwarts of Indian freedom move- them our brothers. Now, they are demand- mentlf the position of 15th August 1947 is to ing Kashimr.1t is my humble submission that be restored then the statues of George Vand when they are demanding Kasmir now, we Queen Victoria would have again to be should prepare ourselves to take back even installed.Thus, this is not a legislation aimed that piece of territory which we had given at bringing about communal harmony. earlier. We are not against the Rather,ltwould be reduced to a Govemment Musl!ms. **(/nterruptions) document indicating a beginning· of the communal tension. The souls of our great [English] leaders will never forgive this Govemment and the future generations would look back MR. SPEAKER: This is not allowed. on this Bill as reminiscent of Aurangzeb's This is not going to form part of the record. reign. You leave it me. Time is very limited. Come to the prOVisions of the Bill. We regard the Parliament House as the temple of our Constitution and in this temple (/nterruptions)** of the Constitution many Shlokas, Mantras and Suktis from our religious texts are written and they were written aftar August 15, [ Translation] 1947. Now if you are going to maintain the status quo as on August 15, 1947 and sup- SHRI ASHOK ANANDRAO pose, tomorrow if someone says that these DESHMUKH: We are not against the Mus- writings should be removed, will you remove lims. (/nterruptions)** them? Therefore I oppose this Bill. [English] Some places of worship in Sindh and Punjab have been handed over to refugees MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down. You from Sindh. Now if status quo as on August leave it to me. You come to the provisions of 15,1947 is maintained, you will have to take the Bill. If you are going out of the provisions back those shrines from them and this would of the Bill, I will not allow you. This is not eventually fuel communal riots. This Bill has correct. been introduced at a time when the country is passing though a critical phase. This was [ Translation] not the appropriate time to bring forward this legislation. Shri Chavan is our leader. He SHRI ASHOK ANANDRAO hails from Maharashtra and is a freedom DESHMUKH: Mr. Speaker, Sir, yesterday fighter. What I want to say is that this should when you were not here, they spoke a lot on not have been brought now. It is a black Bill. this issue. we found it unbearable, yet we It is a matter conceming one and all, not just didn't utter a word. Now, they too should the B.J.P. or Shiv Sena. There should be have the patience to listen to religion in politics but not politics in religion. us •.. (Interruptions)

**Expunged as ordered. by the chair. S99 PIat»s of WoIshj).... SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (Special PtoVisions) 8i1l 400

[English) honour. In these places lord Rama was born· and the people have been offering their MR. SPEAKER: This forum should not prayers at these places for centuries. be used for any other purpose. [English] (Interruptions) MR SPEAKER: This is not going on (TtanslalionJ record.

SHRI ASHOK ANANDRAO [ Ttanslation] DESHMUKH: These people have termed the Hindu religion as a separate religion. SHRI ASHOK ANANDRAO They have termed us as a separate entiry DESHMUKH: About this, Babasaheb Am- from the nation. (Interruptions) bedkar said that .

(English] [EngOsh)

MR SPEAKER : This is not going on MR SPEAKER: This is not going on record. record. (lntelfuptions) ( Intetnf)tions)· MR. SPRAKER: I am not going to allow MR. SPEAKER: Please come to the you to raise such points on the floor of the provisions of the Bin. House. YOIJII are not understanding your responsibility. You are a Member of the ( Interruptions) Parliament, a representative of the people. 00 not make such statements on the floor of [ Translation] tile House.

MR. SPEAKER: People may think that [ Translation] you have not gone through the Bill. SHRI ASHOK - ANANDRAO SHRt ASHOK ANANDRAO DESHMUKH: I cannot'even refer to Baba- DESHMUKH: I have read it and certainly so. saheb (Interruptions) If that's ft. it's alright. I am just giving a background. (/nterrup- lions) ... There are two Issue involved. The (English1 demolition of the Mosque is one issue and that of the temple mnstruc:tion another. No MR. SPEAKER: Please mme to Bill. Hindu wants 10 demolish the OaIgah at Ajner. Now you have made your point. You have No Hindu wishes toay his hand on theJama opposed the Bill. Now you can sit down if you Masjid and no Hindu wants to remove even like. a single brick from our proud posaession. the Taj MahaI. In this country. we have three [ Translation) Iakh mosques 01 which 3.000 mosque are under dispute. The Hindu is demanding just SHRI ASH OK ANANDRAO three temples which are the symbols '" his DESHMUKH: Sri. we don't blame Islam.

'"Not recorded. 401 Places of WolSh" BHADRA 19,1913 (SAKA) (Special Provisions) Bin 402

. These ~ple don't follow the teachings of please take your seat. I am very serious their Prophet, they don't follow even the about this matter. You please take your seat Shariat and what's more they are not pre- now. When I am standing. you will have tp pared to abide by even the law of the Land. take your seat.

[English] Mr. Oeshmukh. you will please understand that you are a very learned Member of MR. SPEAKER: Now please take your this House and you understand that such seat. references are not made on the floor of the House. I have warned you more than once ( Interruptions) not to make references to any religion or any caste Now if you continue doing that. well, I MR. SPEAKER: Shri Oeshmukh, know that the House would like me to do. please take your seat. I am warning you That is why I warn you to come to the now. If you repeat it, I will take action against provisions of the Bill and not to make such you. statements which will unnecessarily inflame the passions. ( Interruptions) [ Translation] [ Translation] SHRI ASHOK ANANDRAO SHRI ASHOK ANANORAO OESHMUKH: Sir, why are they confined to OESHMUKH: You haven't seen the Vish- the year 1947 only? Why are not they going wanath temple, you haven't seen the glory of to retain the position of the 10th century Lord Krishana when the Muslims with their religion Le. Islam came to this country. Were the names ( Interruptions)- of the Ganga and Saraswati like those of Ameena or Rubia at that time? Our country [English] has a culture of its own. (/nt9rruptions} They are making a fuss about temples which MR. SPEAKER: This is not going on never disrupted country's unity and integrity record. rather these temples as well as our rivers have strengthened the unity and integrity of [ Translation] this country.

SHRI ASHOK ANANORAO I would like to assert that this Bill will OESHMUKH: I won' give up that easily. spoit the relations between Hindus and There wiD be bloodshed in this country. I Muslims in the country. Both the communi· want to speak and you please allow meto do ties have very high regard for Nehru and so. With Goddess Saraswatibefore my eyes. Gandhi. Hon. Nehru was like our fa~her and I cannot keep quite. The Muslims don't follow the Indian Muslims must have tt e samt': even the Shariat (Intenvptions) feelings regarding Nehruji. Both the communities eat the same fruits, same foodgrains [English) etc. and we must understand each c.ther.

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Oeshmukh, I would like to ask you to wish 'Vande ------_._.__ .- -Not recorded. SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (SpecIal Provisions) sm 404·

[Sh. Ashok Anandrao OeshmukhJ [English]

Matram' as we do. -Vande Matram' literally I uphold your point of order. I deprecate means Worship the mot;,er ' Through this the manner in which the Member Is speaking phrase we just express our gratitude to- and it is not becoming of the Member .to wards our mother-land which nourishes us speak in this language. by providing each and every thing to us. Sir, I would h'ke to request each and everyone [ Translation] including Shri Ghulam Nabi Azad that they should also use the phrase 'Vande Matram' SHRI ASHOK ANANDRAO (1ntenuptions) All of us, including Hindus DESHMUKH: Mr. Speaker, Sir, lam thankful and MusDms live here. We appeal to all to to you for this. (Interruptions) Why our Mus- say 'Bharat Mata ke Jar. But they (the lims are willing now to preserve the mis- Musfms) never use the words "Bharat Mata . deeds of foreign invaders who had demol- ki Jai, what to talk of 'Vande Matram.' " the ished these temples. Hthey call themselves Muslims want to fIVe in this country properly as Indians, (Interruptions) "they call them- they should live like us. We shall not allow selves as Indians, why do thy favour those them to over side us. They too will have to foreign robbers who had robbed this country come along with us. (Interruptions) in the past, (Interruptions) Vishwamitra, a great Rishi had married the daughter of Shaja Sabar who was a tribal. This tradition I would conclude in a few minutes. Our of intercaste marriage continued up to the religious shrines are not only the embodi- age of Owapar. The king Shantanu married ments of religion but these are our social a Dheever-girl (daughter of fisherman) (Inter- structures also. (Interruptions) ruptions)

For example take the Community [Eng/ish] Hall. Earlier. meetings were help normally in temples. So this issue of temple is not a' MR. SPEAKER: Now, what he says will religions issue. It is linked with our social and not go on record. cultural structure. (Interruptions)·

The last point I would like to raise here as to why our Muslim brothers today want to SHRI ASHOK ANANDRAO preserve the identity of those foreign invad- OESHMUKH: The origin of famous Rajput ers who had demolished these temples dynasty, Chandra-vanshi was the result of centuries ago. I these Muslims acknowl- that intercaste marriages. At that time, there edgeth8fl1sehlas as Indian •.. (/ntelTlfJflons) was no caste tension. (InterruptionS) What- ever the arguments put forlh by them, we SHRI DEVENORA PRASAD YAOAV: ha\td to counter it. Sir. I am on a point order. Ant hon. Member has no right to hurt directly their feelings. (English] (lnttHruptIons) SHRI SUDHIR SAWANT (Rajapur): I MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. thank the hon Home Min~ter for having

-Not recorded. 405 Places of Worshp BHADRA 19,1913 (SAKA) (Special Provisions) Bill 408

introduced this historical Bill. The real object that is how they conquered this country and of this Bill is not confined to the text ofthis Bill. later on they went further. They divided But, It can be read between then lines and Hindus and Muslim in this Country to divide the reat object is to prevent the ·dis-integra- and rule and thus Pakistan was born. On tion of this nation. That is the objective of this what basis Pakistan was born? It was born Bill because in the last three years we had on a misconceived nation of nationhood. witnessed such a communal violence, a That is now Pakistan was created. sectiOn of society ... SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA (South MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Sawant, please Deihl): Who created? help me because time is very short. Come to the provision ... SHAI SUDHIA SAWANT: I am coming (Interruptions) to that. (Interruptions). It was a misconceived concept of nationhood on which SHRI SUDHIR SAWANT: I am coming Pakistan was born. And what is the founda- to the object of the Bill. tion? the foundation is that Hindus and Muslims are two separate nations, which MR. SPEAKER: Please leave the cannot be made to live together. This was background. the foundation on which Pakistan has been created and today t~e foundation of Paki- stan rests on the two-nation theory and what SHAI SUDHIR SAWANT: Because of is why if Hindus and Muslims live amicably the violence which has been perpetrated in in India today. Pakistan will never allow it this country, it was necessary to put the because if Hindus and Muslims live amica- matters to rest which can create controver- bly today in India. the foundation of Pakistan sies in this country, and religion is one such will collapse and Pakistan will disintegrate. thing which can create such controversies, So. that is the issue in question. you must as it has been proved in the last three years realise it. Are we not going to learn form by the incessant violence that we have seen. history. Are we going to play into the hands Today in the Lok Sabha also in the same of a nation which is trying to create a manner that violenet attitude was witnessed permanent divide in this country between by us. It' was a very sad day infact to see the Hindus and the Muslims? And the issue people assaulting each other because as- of these religious places to which this Bill sault is not physical, assult can be in action addresses is trying to do that. is trying to put also as described in the fPC. This is what we to ... (Interruptions). have witnessed today. And what is the reason, the reason was religion. History is a [ Translation] witness to the fact that whenever we people have fought with each other or whenever we DR. MAHAVIR SINGH GOHIL have been divided. foreign rulers have come (Bhavnagar):- Mr. Speaker. Sir, I am on a and conquered this country. In fact, Sikan- point of order (Interruptions) der could succeed to defeat Porus because of this reason. Mohd. Gauri could defeat [EngHsh] Prithvlraj because of this reason. The Bri- tishera could occupy this country because MR. SPEAKER: Yes. you can raise Tipu Sultan and Marathas wer. not united. point of order if you want. f am allowing him They played one against the another and to raise it. 407 Places of WoIship SEPTEMBER 10. 1991 (Sp9cia1 Provisions) BiI1 408

( rnrnslation] Now, Articl9S 25 and 26 of the ~nstitution are very clear. Article 25 guarantees relig- (Interruptions) ious freedom for Individual and Aritlele 28 for religious denominations. But th ... religious DR. MAHA VIR SINGH GOHll: Mr. rights are not unfettered. Article 2S reads as Speaker Sir, my point of order in that hon. follows:- Member is not speaking on the Bill (Interrup- tions) ·Subject to public order. morality and health and to the other provi- IEnglish] sions of this part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of con- MR. SPEAKER: I uphold his point of science and the right freely to pro- order and I direct Shri Sawant to speak on fess. practise and propagate relig- .;",9 provisions of the Bill without giving them ion.- histor;~'il background. The emphasis is on 'Subject to public ( Interruptions). order ... ' So. if there is anything which creator public disorder, it cannot be allowed and this SHRI SUDHIR SAWANT: Sir, I am is what the Bill is trying to do. This Bill is trying to give a!l that because we know trying to prevent any sort of public disorder in foreign powo;s are interested in destabilis- future in this country by setting at rest all the ing this nation and what batter method can conterYersies of religious places. Unfortu- be there to destabilise the nation than to nat'IJly. this particular Ramjanambhoom 1- concentrate and divide it on the basis of Bab':; Masjid issue has not been religion? And that is why the objective of this tackled ... (/ntenvptbns} ... is not being in- Bill is to prevent this disintegration and that cluded. Unfortunalely, whether I would have is why I support this Bill. That is the main 'felt that it could also have been included or point that I wanted to bring about. whatever it is, the second is. "Subject to other provisions of this pan-, that is the Sir. people were taking about Ram fundamental right, and above all there is a throughout yesterday. I revere Ram. But sub-article to Article 14 in respect of funda- why do I revere Ram? Because Ram .stab- mental Rights. lished Ram Rawa in this country. And what is 'Ram Rajya'? Ram Rajya is providing Now. about the Ramjanam Bhoomi fGod, water and sheher, love. compassion. issue. people are saying, it cannot be de- brotherhood and above aI, Ram Rajya Is cided by court. let me ask one thing. The Rule 01 law. Constitution is supreme and any issue in this country has to be decided within the four MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Sawant, please corners of the Constitution. There can be no understand that we havs to pass four Blls issue in the country which cannot be de- today. cided by the three organs of the State. That is why. I do not understand the justifacation SHRI SUOJUR SAWf.Jff: Sir. I will be that religion is an emotional issue which very brief. I am just coming to the cannot be decided by court. Tomorrow constlutional point. And above all. I said that somebody wDI come and chop 011 your head Ram Rajya is the Rule of Law. And what is and say. -This is an emotional issue and not the Rufe of law? How .... we going to bring a legal issue-. What kind of precedents are Ram Rajya within the Constitution of India? you going to set? BHADRA 19. 1913{SAKA) (Spscial Provisions) Bill 410

I am coming to article 14 of the Consti- [ Translation] tution that religion can be practised subject to other provisions of this part. i.e. part III SHRI SULTAN SAlAHUDDIN OWAISI dealing with fundamental right. equality of (Hyderabad): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the presen- opportunity. Hany Muslim goes to the court tation of this Bill is the first right step in this and files that at some particular religious regard because for the last 4-5 years such a place. he has got full right. his application bitter atmosphere was being created in the would be entertained because religious country. To counter this sort of atmosphere, practices are subjects to part III and funda-' the Babri Masjid Action Committee has mental rights. requested the Government to breing such a Bill in the House so that a legal organisance We must remember the examples of could be given to the status quo of all the unity in this country. Let me just quote what religious shrines in the country as on 15th Justice Iyengar spoke on articles 25 and 26 August 1947. Keeping in view the atmos- in Salfuddin Sahb case: phere in the country which has been created by some vested interest to acquire political power, this Bill has bee" brought and I wel- "These articles embody the prin- come this Blil. I would like to ask those who .ciple .of religious tolerance. That are opposing this Bill as to why this Babri has been the characteristic feature . Masjid issue was not raised just after 1947 of the Indian civilisation from the and why did not they raise the issue in 1977 start of history. The period when during Janta regime when they were having this feature was absent being their three Ministers- Shri Vajpayee, Shri merely temporary aberrations. Advani and one other in the Janta Govern- Besides these articles serve to ment. Why do they raise this issue now? So emphasise which the founding-fa- one can easily understand that this is not thers considered to be the very simply an issue for them rather they want to basis of the Constitution-. exploit it for acquiring power. This Bill as presented here is a right step. In this context, That is why, anything which divides this so many controversial things have been nation cannot be allowed to develop in this said in the House, which we heard silently nation. That is why, if any piece of land tends after suppressing our feelings. One may to divide the nation on the lines of religion, guess... (Interruptions) caste creed or community, it cannot be allowed in this country because what are fight- MR. SPEAKER: You need not repeat it. ing for is a strong united and prosperous India. We do not want civil war to take place SHRI. SULTAN SAlAHUDDIN OWAISI: here. This Bill has come at the right time. On this Bill so many things have been.· (Interruptions)

Ramjanam Bhoomi-Babri Masjid Issue [English] is there. let it be decided by the court ... MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Sultan Salahuddin MR. SPEAKER: Mr.S.S. Owaisis to Owaisi, You are a very senior Member and speak. you will not say anything which will hurt the sensibility and the f ..lings of the Members. It is not going on record. What you have said is not going on· record. I -Not recorded. SEPlEMBER ' .. 1911 (SpecIal PtoVislonsJ Bill 4t~\ will also warn you that you are discussing a him yesterday. On .my part I have said very inportant provision of the Bill. You. are that ••• (Interruptions)... . not here to incite the people unnecessarily. MR. SPEAKER: There Is no need to ( Translation] respond to that ..

SHRISUlTANSALAHUDDINOWAISI: I have no intention to hurt anyone's feelings. SHRISULTAN SALAHUDDIN OWAISI: (Wem.pion) Since yesterday, our senti- It would be better "the remarks made by him ments are being hurt here in the House. are expunged. Hthose remarks are included (tJtem.pJbns) in the records ... (/ntem.ptions) •.•

Contrary to this they say that I am hurt- .(English] ing their feelings. Sometimes, they talt of their faith. let them ascertain their faith first MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Sultan Salahuddin regarding the birth-place of Ram. Yesterday Owaisi, you will please understand that I they asserted that the Ram's Chabootra is have not allowed one hon. Member to use the axaet birth-place of Ram. Now they are such a kind of language and to speak in slfCh saying that Shilanyas spot is the birth place a manner. I will not allow you also. You are of Ram. The Mahanta of Ayodhya on the a pretty senior Member of the House. Please other hand is saying that Ram was bom at do not get something from the Chair which some other place. They should give proper will lower your dignity. evidence regarding the birth place of Ram. They cry when their sentiments are touched. [ Ttanslatlon) (tJtem.ptDns)

(Engfsh) SHRISULTAN SALAHUDDIN OWAISI: I have nasponded only to the points that were MR. SPEAKER: I am hearing his point raised. I would like to know the circum- of order. stances which led to the need to introduce such a Bill. Newspapers have published a (Translation) list of 3,200 mosques and 'dargahs' in the country. Where h8s it been mentioned in history that there was a temple at that spot? SHRIHARISINHCHAVDA:Mr.Speaker Then it is said that history has pinpointed the Sir. hen. Member is deviating from the provi- location of mosques and 'darghaa' also. What sions of this BiR. (/nttHrUptions) is all this about? We must consider the global situation andereate an atmoaphereof peace 'English) and harmony in our country to save It trom disintegration. The Wortd's great powers MR. SPEAKER: I uphold your point of could not survive by following a policy of older and I ask Mr. SUltan Salahuddin suppresaIon. We must learn a lesson from Owaisi 10 please speak on the provisions of what is happening in Russia and the 811 AsIa .•. (lnt.mJptions) ... this Is what you want to suppr8!SS. No country can be run In the (T~J name of religion today. Seeking vot.. in the name of religion will not do. I extend my full I am rt:sponding to the points raised by support to this 8i:i. 413 Places of WolShip BHADRA 19, 1913 (SAKA) (Spscial Provisions) Bill 414

&.00 tva. an opportunity to speak on this Bill. A bill which seeks to retrain the status quo of [English) relig~us shrines as on 15th August, 1947 is most welcome. The Government had to SHRI RAM NAIK (Bombay-North): Sir, I bring such a Bill in view of the growing am on« point of order. communal tension in the country. I thank the . Hon. Prime Minister and the hon. Home MR. SPEAKER: What is your point of Minister for having introduced such an order? important Bill in the House.

SHRI RAM NAIK: Originally, the time I belong to a land which IS totally secu- allotted for this discussion was about four lar, a land which we call India where people hours. It is being extended and we have no of various faiths like Hindu, Muslim, Sikh and objection. I only want to have your ruling Christian live together. People of different advance because we have given certain religions act in Ind!3n films and play roles for amendments. We would like to speak on the very religions. The well-known '1.ctor Dilip amendments also. Otherwise, sometimes it Kumar is a Muslim. Yet he play OJ the role of does happen that we are not allowed to a Hindu, visits Hindu places of worship, speak on the amendments. So, if more time offers prayers and speaks Hindu, fluently is being given for that, I would only request and portrays sentiments correctly . Ever since you, Sir, to ensure that we are allowed to I am to this House I have felt as if I am outside speak on the amendments also. India. I have felt as if I am among enemies. I want to emphasise that this House belongs MR. SPEAKER: No. The point is very neither to the B.J.P nor to the Congress, well-taken. But I am not deciding in your Communist Party or Janata Dal. Instead of favour. I am sorry. The time fixed was four fighting among ourselves we must think over hours. About eight hours have been con- issues that affect the development of the sumed. Probably, everr Member wanted to country .... (/ntelTUpfions) ... you can speak give expression to this views. I am aware of when it is your tum. I have nlWer interrupted the fact that we have been, perhaps, more your speech so you should also listen to me stringent than what we should have been. when I am speaking. We have curtailed the speeches, very learned speeches, erudite speeches of the With the passage of this Bill, there should Members. That was because of the con- also be a change of heart. The hon. Member straint of time. I hope you will appreciate the who just spoke expressed his apprehension difficulties. We shall have to transact other regarding the repurcussions of such a legis- business also. In view of that. having spoken lation. Such fears should be set at rest. This very comprehensively on many of the points, Bill has been brought to ensure a safe and probably the amendments also are covered secure IHe for the masses of this country. to in your speeches. So, you will not press foro ensure that incidents like the Bhagalpur kill- that. ings do not recur. This step has not been taken to bolster up the image of the Con- Now Shri Sunil Dutt to speak. gress.

[ Translation) [Trans/ation]

SHRI SUNIL DUTT (Bombay-North- My submission to you is that Congress West): Sir, I am grateful to you for giving me party has always been cautious and would SEPTEMBeR 10,1991 (Special PlOvislons) BII 416

[Sh. SunH Outt) [English]

be cautious in future ••. (interruptions) •• •When That Is my India. That is the India I live the Constitution of our country was prepared for; that isthelndia Idiefor•.• (lntetruptlons) .•. .. drew demarc8tlon line which can be termed as 'Lakshman Reicha'. It meant that [Tntnslatlon] ours Is a sa::ular country and people of all relQions Hindus, Muslims, Skhs and Chris- I will talk about you also I have a great tians-have equal right to led their life in their resp.ct for you. I will appreciate own Way. They are also free to worship in the you ..• (lnt.nvptlons) ..• manner they Ike. But this demarcation Une has been ~ out with religion interfering I would lik. to read out the statement into paIIics. In this way .our Sita has been giv.n by your friend. Khurana Sahib, kindly abducted ••• (lntentf'lhns) ... listen to me and also di~ your followers to listen to m••.• (/nt.rruptlons)· •.• (EngIsh] [English] MR.-8PEAKER: After this tense hours, we do deserve this kind of light heartedness. MR. SPEAKER: This is not going on record. SHRISUNIL DUTT: lam very grateful to you. [ Translation]

[T~ SHRI SUNIL DUTT: You are the whip of " that party, can't you keep them qui.t. How do you keep them in your control outside the I would Ike to refer not to Tulsidasji or House, if you cannot do so In this Baknlciji but to the modem writers because House .•. (/ntenuptions) ... kindly listen to m•. It is vary important to know as to what is. One of the Indian writ.rs has said that when prevaling in the county presently. It is not so a person dies in C'lmmunal riots, the life of important 10 know what happened hundred the country reduces. y... or thousand years ago, that is only a part of history. What happens today is. the, [English] ,_.,and that is essential to be understood. Khurana Sahb, you have migrated from The life of a country goes away, it is not Pakistan, if you would have continued to live the life of the human being that goes away. in the past you would not have been able to live in Delhi you would have been living in [ Tntnslation] Pakistan ••• (Intentf'lhns)•.• 1f you have the right to lYe in Oelh~ you must become I may given you an example: when you DaHle in the real sense •.. were. on your 'Rath Yatra' and riots took pIac8 in Bhagalpur••. (lnt.tTUptlons) ... 1 am (~s) ••• 1 you live in India you referring to the same iratent when riots took must be an Indian. India Is a country which place in BhagaJpur, I visited that city. Some belongs to Hindus, MusHm.. Sikhs and o M.Ps belonging to Janata Dal were also with ChriItiana equally. us and we there ••• (lntetTUptDns) ••• Klndly 417 PIactIs of WolSh" BHADRA 19, 1913 (SAKA) (Special Provisions) SIR 418

Ost.n to m•... (/ntBnuptlons) ... You have al- lages which are predominantly Inhabited by ready abducted Sitaji and Ravanaji, now Muslims and those by Hindus as well. (/nt.,.:. pleasesitdown ... (lntBnvptbns) ... kindly help ruptions)* m. because I would like to say a few words In your appreciation.When I ~ant to [English] Bhagalpur. MR. SPEAKER: This is not going on SHRIVINAYKATIVAR(Faizabad): Mr. record. Speak.r, Sir, I am on a point of order .•. (Interruptions) ... [ Translation]

[English] SHRI SUNIL DUTT: I visited the villages of both Hindus and Muslims. I enquired from MR. SPEAKER: Let me hear his point of the Hindus as to who were the fundamental- order ... (Interruptions) ... iss who had come to their village. Therefore. I do not put the blame on Hindus alone. I say SHRI SUNIL DUTT: Kindly listen to me that people from both the communities are first. to blame in this case.l am referring to Bhagalpur riots. (/ntenvptlons) . SHRI VINAY KA TIYAR: The hon. Member is deviating from the subject. He is [Eng/ish] trying to relate this discussion to the communal riots. Not only this, he has also tried to MR. SPEAKER: Please leave it. relate it to 'Rath Yatra' and thus he is mis- leading the House. I am on a point of order. [ Translation] Please check him from doing so. SHRI SUNIL DUTT: I would like to say [English] that without communal harmony between the two communities nothing is going to MR. SPEAKER: I rule out your point of improve. Sir if you give a ruling, I would not order. like to dwell further on this issue and reserve my observations and remarks for some other [ Translation] occasion. But the issue is so important, that unless both communities came across the SHRI SUNIL DUTT: I am referring to negotiating table, unity and integrity cannot BhagaJpur. I visited the city personally and be fostered in the country. This is absolutely I would Uke to submit that Bills on various necessary for the unity and integrity of the matter would be passed in the House but country. I am not saying here as to who are unless we change our hearts, we cannot fundamentalists and who are not, who died restore unity and inteQrity in the country. and hOw. I just want to raise the issues which Therefore, I would like to emphasise the are more important and effective than that. I need of restoring unity and integrity in the saw the plight of Hindus in villages padomi- country ... (Interruptions) ... nantly inhabited by Hindus from close querters. They were a depressed lot and Please sit down. I am not saying any- both thair shelters and clothing have been thing objectionable. There I visited the vil- burnt. When I enquired from them as to who

*Not re ..:orded. 419 cPlacesof~:; SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (SptK:/IJI PtOVItIDns) _ 420

ISh. Sunil Dutt] Hindu Hain Hum Vatan Hain Hfn- duslan Hamara" had come to their viUages they said that B.J.P men had come.(/nt.rruptions) This was written by a Muslim and it Is our National Song. Doordarshanpresentation Of SHRI MADAN tAL KHURANA: Mr. Mahabharatof Ved Vyas. which was viewed Speaker, Sir, he is digressing from the main by all of us was written by Rahi Masoom issue and saying very objectionable things. Raza. Not a single contradiction can be (Interruptions) noticed in it.

SHRI SUNIL DUn: I am referring to [English] riots and praising them only. People said that B.J.P. men and V.H.P workers provided This is my secular India. This is my them succour and wiped their tears. When I India. And this is the India that I am pro~d of, went to Muslim villages, the people said that of all the countries .•. (/ntemJPtions) •.. Umaji the Jamait-e-Islam men wiped their tears is a very nice Parliamentarian, I really feel. and gave them help. Sir. I would like to emphasise on the point that if the Muslims [ Translations] and Hindus have a soft comerfortheir brethren in other community from the core of their I am proud of her. She is a very able hearts, people from one community should parliamentarian and whenever any issue have gone to the help of people in the other concerning women is raised in the House, community forfostering communal harmony then Shrimati Geeta Mukherjee and Kumari and affedion for each other. Uma Bharati, espoused women's cause in the House-... (Interruptions) ..• Sir, the agony of a women in the wake of the death of her child or her husband is the [English] same to which ever community she might belong- to. whether she is a Muslim or a MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. Hindus YfOITWl. So, if the community feelings are perpetuated and spread like this, MR. SPEAKER: please sit down. (Inter- then what will be the outcome? (Int.mJp- ruptions) tions) Sir, the BiD under consideration should be passed in one voice by all sections of the ( Interruptions) House for the sake of country's integrity and for boosting the prestige of the nation. I MR. SPEAKER: Let me give the ruling. would also like to make an appeal to B.J.P. cadre with folded hands, not to oppose the (Interruptions) Bill as it would serve everybody's interest as 'wen as that of the country in general. I would MR. SPEAKER: If he says that he is like to ten one and at that if peace and withdrawing the remarks ... COIdiaIity is maintained In the country. it will automatically solve all problems. I would like ( int9ffU(Jlions) to quote a few lines of a song: ( Translation] 'Majhab Nahin Sihkata Apes Main VairRakhna MR. SPEAKER: PJease keep quite

-Nt recorded. 421 Places 01 ~ BHADRA 19, 1913 (SAKA) (Special Provisions) BIll 422

Whatever might have been the intention of way, the hon. Member made a raference by the hon. Member, but if it had hurt the feel- names, it appears that the hon. Member is Ings of someone, then it will not go on record. delivering a film dialogue. He is saying nothing serious in the august Parliament of India. ••. (/nterruptions) ••• The hon. Member must tender an apology. •.. (Interruptions) ... SHR1 MADAN LAL KHURANA: Mr. Speaker, Sir I am on a point of order. The [English] way, the hon. Member made a raference by names, It appears that the hon. Member is MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seal. delivering a film dialogue. He is saying (Interruptions) Mr. Sunil Dutt, do you want to nothing serious In the august Parliament of say something on this point? India. The hon. Member must tender an apology. SHRI SUNil DUIT: Yes, Sir. (Intern.p- lions) Upon my honour, I would like to say in .•. (Interruptions) .•. this House that I have always respected women and I have aJways sacrificed for the [English] life of women, whether she is my wife or mother or sister or daughters orgranddaugh- MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. ters. I give top priority for the women of this (Interruptions) country.

[ Translation] MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down. It is not craziness on my part, but it ( Interruptions) shows guilty conscience on the part of the hon. Member who is accusing me. MR. SPEAKER: let me give the ruling. ( Interruptions) ( Intenvptions) [English]

MR. SPEAKER: If he says that he is withdrawing the remarks .•• MR. SPEAKER: I wi I give a ruling.

(Interruptions) (/ntenuptions)

[ Translation] MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seats.

MR. SPEAKER: Please keep quiet. (lntarruptions) Whatever might have been the intention of the hon. Member, but if it had hurt the fe"- MR. SPEAKER: First of all. I would *e jngs of someone, then it will not go on record. to thank the Members for they are cooper- ating with the Chair. (Interruptions)

SHRI MADAN tAl KHURANA: Mr. It seems that Mr. Sun. Dutrs remarks Speaker, Sir, I am on a point of order. The have hurt the feelings of our sisters in the SEPTEMBER 10. 1991 (Special Provisions) BII -424

House. I think Mr. SunI Dutrs win not feel and daughter wi be in tuna with ourfaalinga below dignity to say 'sorry' I it has hurt their with which you must have expressed your feelings. feelings. If 8Ilybody is hurt, you can always make amends.' do not think thatcraates any problem. I know with what kind of a feeling , he has spoken thaN words. That is why, I SHRI SUNIL DUTT: With a very heavy . have not said anything. But you yourself, are heart and with total dignity to the House, I quite capable of making amends ••• generally feel that I never meant to hurt the feelings of any woman in this House and SHRI SUNIL DUTT: I am proud of the even outside in the country. But I fail to women of this country. I admire understand why only one section of woman them ••• (Interruptions) ••• the other party did not like my ,.marks:••. {lnte~ •.• 1 have the right [ Translation] to say (IntelTLf'lions) SHRI SUNIL DUTT:'I have a craze for my MR.·SPEAKER: Please sit down. mother, for my sister and for my daughter .•• (/nte"uptions) ... Since I have (/ntem.ptions) sacrified for my country ••. 1have a craze for my country .•. (Interruptions) •.. . MR. SPEAKER: Are you making any amends or not? [EngHsh]

SHRI SUNIL DUTT: Sir. H I am guilty, I will say ·sorry'. THE MINISTER OF RAILWAYS (SHRI C.K JAFFER SHARIEF): Sir. you are the [Translation) custodian of this House. And as the custodian of this House, you can go into all as- Thera are devotees of God, there are pects and deliberations. If anything happens servants of humanity. It is not so that to be outside the limits and the scope of the (/ntIllTlJPfions) Bill, please see that that is expunged. That responsibility is yours. If any Member from (EngIsh) any section of the House has spoken anything outside the scope of the Bill. that should MR. SPEAKER: SunH Duttji. please be to:ally expunged. take your seat. Please let us understand. (Interruptions) (/ntlNTUplions) MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down. (inter- MR. SPEAKER: You are complicating ruptions) my job unnecessarily. Please sit down. PIeMe h. me. 00 not complicate my job. [ Translations]

(interruptions) SHRI PHOOL CHAND VERMA MIt SPEAKER: Mr. Sunil Dutt. the val- (Shajapur): Mr. Speaker. Sir, you have given our and the spirit of understanding and the yourJUling that he must apologise••• (lnt.,- spirit of giving respect to our mother. sister rutpIons) 425 Places of Wotsh" BHADRA 19.1913 (SAKA) (SpsciaJPmvisions) Bill 426

[English] used, only after that we said that unparliamentary expression should not be used in MR. SPEAKER: Don't put words into the House. He is here as a'- Member of my mouth unnecessarily. It is not like that. Parliament and not as a cinema hero. He When I have not said anything. you are should not use such expressions. We do not twisting the facts in my presence and saying expect such expression of him. Therefore aU that. Members felt agitated. He deserves respects as he has worked for the cause of cancer. (Int~rruptions) The objection was raised by all sections and not a single section of ladies. It is not ex- MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down. pected of a responsible parliamentarian ... Sumitraji please sit down. (Interruptions)

[Ttanslation] MR. SPEAKER: Sumitraji, you have now expressed your views. Be seated now. SHRIMATI SUMITRA MAHAJAN (In- dore): Mr. Speaker. Sir, I have never ex- [Eng/ish] pressed my views before. MR. SPEAKER: Please cooperate. We [English] have many Bills to pass. We were thinking that we would be able to pass the Bills. Kindly MR. SPEAKER: Okay, I allow you. do not use the words which may lead to objections. Let us be in a position to say SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHERJEE: judge not and we will not be judged. want to say just one thing. SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHERJEE MR. SPEAKER: I will allow you also (Panskura): Sir, t am not an expert on Urdu. after Sumitraji. So, what I appreciate in Sunil Babu's speech is .the feeling that he has hor women and I SHRI K.P UNNIKRISHNAN: I am on a expect all of you to have the same feeling. point of order Sir, This is my submission.

MR. SPEAKER: I have already called SHRI K.P UNNIKRISHNAN(Badagara): her. Sir, I am on a point of order. This House has to be regulated by you. In your wisdom ... [ Translation] MR. SPEAKER: I think it is a point of SHRIMATI SUMITRA MAHAJAN: Mr. order on Speaker. Speaker. Sir. we have raised an objection, I would like to teU hone Sunil Outt that we have SHRI K.P UNNIKRISHNAN: Please, all regards for him even today as we had so listen to me. ~ am here to assist you and to in the past. But a very serious matter was draw your attention to something. What I being discussed at that time in this House. want to say is that this House can only be The objection was raised to the manner in regulated through the' rules of procedure and which it was spoken. Members have a sense not by sentiments. This House, specifically of honour but the word 'Oiwana' (fan of you, can decide or any other Presiding women) was used in derogatory manner for Officer in your place whether a Member has ladies•.• (Interruptions) The word 'listen' was used Parliamentary expression of unparJia"- 427 placft of WoIsh.p SEPTEMBER 10, 1D91 (Special PtOvisions) Bill 428

[Sh. K. P. Unnikrishnan] I have been a filem-hero. I would like to submitted that today also I am a film~hero mentary expression. Your attention can only and I am proud of being so••. (/nterruptions) be drawri to that but not because somebody I feel proud that I being to the world of feels or is over-sensitive and dislike a word cinema. Without making any discrimination or phrase or might wish the Member should films depict a secular view of our country. have used some other phrase: Member'S (Int9rruptions) While raising her voice to the speeches cannot be regulated by sentiments cause of women In the House Kumari Uma be it of any section of the House. Bharti had referred to the incidents of female foeticide after sex-determination. Sentiments MR. SPEAKER: Wen, I appreciate the have been involved with the Issue. There are feelings of my friend and an hon.Member of many other issues as important as that which this House and 80 per cent I agree with him. confront us. Atrocities like rape etc. are Regarding 20 per cent my decision is let us committed. on women, Harijans are mal- try to avoid the expressions which my be treated, children are being killed by Tantrlks unparliamentary and hurt the feelings of who offer them to deities and then eat their Members. flesh, girls are sold and there is hungers and poverty. We have tp tackle all these prob- [ Translation] lems. Therefore I would like to submit ...

KUMAR. UMA BHARTI: Mr. Speaker, -Aur bhi gum hain jamane mein, Sir, I agree with Shri Unikrishnan that this mandir ke, sivay discussion does not relate to getting over- Anaginat saidyon ke tarik va sensitive. I understand it, I have travelled vahimana Tilsim, world-wide. I understand the limits of hu- Reshmo-atlasi va kam khwab me in mour. I have not come here out of bunvaye huye caves ... (Interruptions) But there is a deco- Jabajaan bikate huye kucha va rum to be maintained in Parliament, in the bazar mein jism. country and as such a dignity has to be Khak mein lithare huye, khun mein maintained while expressing one's feelings. nahalaye huye. If man does not learn to live a disciplined life Laut jati hai udhar ko bhi nazar kya then there is no difference between animal keeze, and man. (Interruptions) I would like to sub- Ab bhi Dhilkash hal tera husn kya mit that I respect the views expressed by keeje, Shri Sunil Dutt is a social worker but he h3s Aur bhi gam hain, jamane mein been a film hero. mandir ke sivaya.

(Interruptions) These things would not be understood by them. In the end I thank you for allowing [English] me time to express my views.

Wt. SPEAKER: Mr. Sunil Dutl, what is SHRI KALKA DAS (Karolbagh): Mr. your point of order? Speaker. what is your decision?

[ Translation] [Eng/ish]

SHRI SUNIL DUTT: Mr. Speaker, Sir, MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down. Most Kumari Uma Bharati submitted just now that of the Member have started asking me what 429 Places of Worsh*, BHAORA 19, 1913 (SAKA) (Special Provisions) Bil/ 430

has been decided and what not. and they country know very well the people who try to say that they are following the rules. The rule belie the history. Barring the tribals, the is, I do not appreciate many of the things said Aryans and many other communities who by some Members on the floor of the House were all foreigners came to this soil. What I and if there is anything objectionable or want to point out is that the Muslims too anything which hurts the feelings of the came here about 1-112 -2 thousand years Members, that will not form part of the rec- after the Aryans. The Hinduism assimilated ord. and accepted all the people coming from outside. It was a typical generosity. But what [ Trans/ation] is prevailing in the society today is a subject of serious anxiety and it is for this reason that SHRI RAM SUNDER DAS (Hajipur): I support this Bill. If the makers of our consti- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the bill that tution had not made the provision of secular- has been introduced. I am supporting it ism, the country could have witnessed relig- because this bill is in keeping with the de- ious fanacitism coupled with armed struggle clared policies enshrined in the Indian Con- and many other agitations. But the makers of stitution. What necessitated introduction of our constitution had a foresight. for all these this Bill? things.

But introducing this Bill the ruling party Ithink that we all should be happy forthe has done a good job keeping in view the introduction if this Bifl. There would be no conditions that have been created in the trace of any caste, creed, religion or party, if country due to the growing communalism. In there is no nation. Keeping all this in view I order to keep the sovereignty of the country support the bill. As it is a progressive bill it intact and to root out the spreading commu- should be passed unanimously. nalism, !he ruling party has done a praise- worthy work by introducing the bill. I thank I wan! t::> say one more thing. Religion, the ruling party for it but at the same time, I I think, is a personal thing. So far as the cannot help saying that this measure should question of worshipping of visiting a place of have been taken much earlier. The people of worShip is concerned, anyone can offer his the ruling party wake-up only when it is too prayers anywhere acx:ording to his belief. late. But it is beyond my comprehension that religion should be pinted in the colour of Mr. Speaker: Sir, if we take a look at the communalism. The religion that creates post independence etc. it take us no time to obstacles before the human beings in the understand that we could have served the matter of their prosperity cannot be regarded nation a lot , had we made efforts to strengthen as a religion. the secular forces. That way, we could have brought about a drastic change and thereby What I want to say is that the people who J.,Jrotected secularism. But the ruling party talk of creating religions frenzy cannot make who rule~ the nation did not pay attention to tl,is country a country of a single religion. it. This is not a country of a particular commu- The people who donot understand religion nity or a particular reli!)ion and that is why I are the ones who spend a pompous life and support this Bill. work towards distintegrating the nation. Humbly I would like to tell them that they Mr. Spaaker: Sir. our friends from this would bot be forgiven by history. We should saidthClt History was being belied. Sir, through be on guards lest we should start following you. I want to t;ubrnit thnt people of this other n~tions and fall a victim of destruc1ion 431 -Places ofWOlSh" SEPTEMBER 10. 1991 (Special Ptovlsion~) BBI 432

[Sh. Ram Sunder Oas) norlties but also linguistic minorities that the faith they professed, the religion they fol- in the process••• (IntMrUptions) There are . tOwed or the language they spoken or -in a people, in the country -who are theist while broader S8nse~ the way of life they followed many others are atheist~ But. the contribu- or the values they had, shall have no bearing tion they have made to the country through on their rights. Their legal status, their civil their ideals cannot be forgotten. This Is a rights and secularism would be the binding country of composite culture and multilngual cement of Indian society. But that is sought people where all of us have been living to be uptumed. It is not to say that there are unitedly and protecting the nation. In support no elements in minority communities who of this bUll would say briefly that -it should be are propagating minority fundamentalism or implemented carefully lest it should fall in the minority communalism whetheritbe in Punjab doldrum and meet the fate of many similar or elsewhere. But today the fact remains that bills. Ours Is a secular country. What Is the Hindu revivalism is sought to be dressed up reason that we could not run the country in as Indian nationalism. Not only that. They keeping with the declared policies? There claim to speak on behalf of the majority of must be some reasons. Perhaps politics or Hindu community. I do not know who has the political gains are the reasons. It Is- for given them the authority to do so. If they win this reason that we could not adhere to those with a microscopic vote to the total national cherished principles. The bill would. no doubt. vote and poP\Jlation and they come here and getthrough.but if it is not implemented firmly. tell us that .tiley can speak on behalf of the we cannot protect secularism. The framers great Hindu religious faith and the Hindus. of the Constitution had declared that if the they are mistaken. I have no doubt that rights provided to people in the Constitution history will prove that "they are mistaken. But are not actually given to them. they wOuld it is these people who called ~yodhya a lose faith in the Constitution in the course of national shame. Were this movement to time. The ruling party has brought froward succeed, the danger is that secularist con- this bill - better late than never. I support the cept. secular framework. secular unity that bill and express my gratitude to you for wehavesoughttobuildupwouldbestrangled having given me an opportunity to express and India would straightaway be handing for my views. I wanted that I should have been a Fascist take-over. Theyare laying siege to given time a bit earlier. as this was my the basic concept to which we are commit- maiden speech in this House. ted. On this there can be ·no compromise. I know that they call some of us as pseudo [EngHshj secularists. I would say and repeat that I am proud to be a called pseudo secularist. SHRI K.P UNNIKRISHNAN: Mr. Speaker. Sir I wholeheartedly welcome this The focus of the belligerence of this very significant legislative measure. which small Hindu grouP. the revivalist group. claim- should have been passed long back. ing to represent the majority community in this country. has been the Babri Masjid in Sir.ev8l'-Sinceour independence in 1947 Ayodhya in Uttar Pradesh. Now I want to say and more so. after we become a republic that we cannot revert to the medieval poli- , within a democratic Constitution. we have tics. We can revert as some people have taken certain steps. sometimes faltering but shown to medieval politics. We can revert as a steady effort was set in motion seeking to some people have shown'to medieval way. divorce religion from the States and to But this country as a nation cannot revert to assure minorities,not merely religious mi- medieval politics. It cannot be allowed to 8WlRA 19,1913 (SAKA) (s,.oiaI PtoVisions) BiD 434

destory pIacea of worship whether there was 17.00 hr. , . worship or not - as long as some people regard it as such - under any circumstances. It is not that I do not have no quarrel. But, for some people it has been that they accept. It is true that demolition had taken place; It is a matter of faith. But, for some people • .vandalism had taken place. Are we to go even those who had accepted Valmiki, those back and repeat the vantJaiism? That is the who had accepted Shri Ramachandra, even question before us today. Today the atten- for them whether he is a history figure. it has tion is centred on a mosque which has its been questioned. Well. I do not want to enter historic antiquity. Bit it has also been estab- into this dispute.l accept him and I am proud lished that Hindus had destroyed Buddhist of him. I am proud of great heritage of Valmiki .and Jain shrines. of Ramayana and Shri Ramachandra. I am sure late Sardar Ballab Bhai Patel will not PROF. PREM DHUMAL (Ajmer): rejectthis. Shri Aurobindo was asked whether Where? Shri Ramachandra was a historical figure. His answer was "There is no ground to SHRI K. P UNNIKRISHNAN: In Bihar, believe that Rama is a historical figure-: U.P If you want, we shall discuss it sepa-' Then again h. asked -00 you believe a kind rate~~ '. How far back in history are you going marches to Lanka with an army of to go? And who is going to interpret it as to monkeys? Valmiki may have taken it from which should be destroyed and which should tradition that existed then or from imagina- not be destroyed? tion and, oreated figures which so weH suited the Indian temperament that the whole Secularism is more than the faith, con- race took them into it consciousness and cessions and special considerations. It is not assimilat&! them'-. He says "There were the concession that we make to somebody. Ramayanas before Valmiki's because ele- It is the right that minorities have in this ments or Ramakatha was present even! in country ..It is also for the majority and for· Vedas and that even in the Veda you tind everyone's state of mind, a kind of instinctive ,Rama symbolsing the divine and Sita stand- feeling such as existed, by and large, for ing for the earth. It also may be tf:lat Valmiki many centuries in India. .when Hindus, brought it over from some Daivic plane to this Muslims Christians and followers of other earth-. He concludes, ·Shri Rarna might have faiths lived side by side and brought up in this lived but one cannot say definite-. This is country in general harmony. from Evening Talks with Sri Aurobindo, Second Series recorded by A.B. Purani, The known history of Ayodhya does not page 209. (Interruptions). It is important that indicate that what is claimed as the Janam- the background should be debated in this sthan was. in fact, the birth place of Sri House. Rama, the Purushotma, or that a temple existed there. I do not want to go into the MR. SPEAKER: We have not allowed background of this. But Sardar Vallabhbhai other Members to speak on that. Patel - I am sure, they do not reject him as I had heard them yesterday - wrote to Shri (Interruptions) Govind Ballabh Pant on 9th January 1950

that no unilateral action by any group on an ; attitude of aggression can be allowed or SHRI K.P. UNNIKRISHNAN: It is not a countenanced. This is what he wrote on this concession. I have never spoken in this very very question. House earlier on this subject. (Interruptions)· 435 Places of Worshp SEPTEMBER 10,1991 (SpscilllUwvisions) 1JiII.~,A8&,

MR.SPEAKER: I have not allowed other called Nandigrama, It is outside. Therefore Members also to speak. the point is that we are not going into this dispute. But this is being sought to be utilised SHRt GUMAN MAllODHA (Pali): We by people to says that they represent the do not require his teachings. majority points of view on this question and they represent the nation list point of view on ( Interruptions) this question.

SHRI K.P. UNNIKRISHNAN: Nobody is A question was raised earlier here as to going to teach me how to speak in the who was responsible for partition of this sub- House. H I have to learn from you the rules. continent. I do not want to go into this ques- of procedure on patriotism ... (intenuptions). tion. But undoubtedly everbody who is well acquainted with history knows that not only SHRIK.P. UNNIKRISHNAN:The ques- Mr. Jinna and his Muslim league but also tion of validity, I do not want to go into all Hindu commuanlism of which Veer Savarkar these details. The question of Janmasthan was the promoter for whom I have great or anything respect i hold him in great esteem as freedom fighter- was responsible for introducing ( Interruptions)· the concept of militarising Hindutava which is followed by the RSS MR.. SPEAKER: This may not go on record. ( Interruptions)

( Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: No, no. All this is off the mark and it is not necessary. SHRI K. P • UNNIKRISHNAN: Prof. Barua is considered to be an authority on SHRI K.P. UNNIKRISHNAN: Who are ancient Indian Geography and he says after behind this Bill? Why this Bill has been his research ... necessitated?

MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Unnkrishnan, I MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Unnikrishanan, have disallowed other Members because please help us. We have some other busi- the time is very short and there are other ness and it was greed in lhe meeting of the Members who want to speak. Members.

SHRI K.P. UNNIKRISHNAN: I Willtry to (Interruptions) be very brief. He says that accqrding to his calculations based on Valmikrs Ramayanas MR. SPEAKER: Please allow me for Vth Chapter.•. one minute. It was agreed that we are going to pass two more BHIs today and I hope that MR. SPEAKER: Why Ramayana. The we will be continuing to sit in the House and Bill is not a Ramayana. pass two more Bills. Time is very short. So, Please be brief. SHAt KP UNNIKRISHNAN: And he said that there is no Jamasthan within this. MR. K.P UNNIKRISHNAN: Therefore, It could haw been in what he says in that is it was Guruji Golwakar who said •••

*Not recorded. . 437 ,Places of Worship BHADRA 19, 1913 (SAKA) (Special Provisions) Bill 438

SHRI RAM NAIK: I want to put it pr0p- SHRI K.P UNNIKRISHNAN: Yes, busi- erly. (lntenuptions). The best way to put it on ness of the House can be regulated. record would be that Savarkar was not for militarising Hindutva, Savarkar was 10r mill- MR. SPEAKER:'Please help me. tarising the nation. He never said that Savar-' karwantedto militarise Hindutva Why should SHR' K.P. UNNIKRISHNAN: Yes, I it be wrongly quoted? (Interruptions) am trying to help you, but you should not interrupt me. (/ntelTUptions). SHRI K.P. UNNIKRISHNAN: Sir,l have quoted from his speech of Hindumahasbha MR. SPEAKER: You are not on the Session, Ahmedabad Session, 1937. Sir, provisions of the Bill, but you should to come Guruji Golwalkar Said ... to the provisions of the Bill.

MR. SPEAKER: No, I alT' not allowing (Interruptions) these thihgs to go on record, oecause, you know, if you say it then there will be reply to SHRI K.P. UNNIKRISHNAN: I thought it and there will be a counter-reply. you would follow what,' am saying.

Sir ,Guruji Golwalkar says:

MR. SPEAKER: You come to the Bill. "The non-Hindu peoples in Hindus- tan must either adopt the Hindu SHRI K.P UNNIKRISHNAN: That is not culture and language, must learn the way. H J am saying something unparlia- to respect and hold in reverence mentary, you can ask me and say that it is not Hindu religion, must entertain no going on record. (Interruptions). I am saying idea but those of glorification of that this is root of the problem. Hindu race and culture, that is, they must not ungratefulness towards MR. SPEAKER: Please come to the this land and its age-long tradi- provisions of the Bill. tions, but must also cultivate the positive attitude of love and devo- (/ntenuptions) tion to Hinduism and they must cease to be foreigners-. SHRI K.P. UNNIKRISHNAN. Why this Bill, I have to explain. Why the background, This is from We or our Nationhood De- i have to explain,. You cannot dictate on the fin~ nationhood to which my esteemed Members. friend, Shri Ram Naik. had referred. And said

" this as a solution. MR. SPEAKER: No, , have to guide the Members. Members cannot always t.e Sir, Guruji had a favourite book. It is not objection to the guidance given by me. AIahabharata. or Ramayana. you will be surprised. Gurujrs favourite book, as he SHRI K.P. UNNIKRISHNAN: No, not himself said , is Mein Kempfof Hitler and the that is not the point. Guidance should be solution d Judaic Hitler g ... to the world. such ••• (lntarroptions). My point is that this is MR. SPEAKER: I have to take in to not necessitated, but it is because if this- . account the entire business of the House. attitude of the followers that todaY we had to 439 Places of WoISh" SEPTEMBER 10:;,1981 (Special Provisions) 8i11~, 440

[Sh. K.P. Unnikrishnan] to be kept in chock. These elements will have to be fought. Only if secularism pre- bring forward this Bill. On the oontrary, Sir, vails. India would be able to oome out of its we are proud anke •.. age old era of deprivation, filth, squalor and misery. MR. SPEAKER: Only on the provisions ofth. Bill. [ Translation]

SHRI KP. UNNIKRISHNAN: I will come SHRI RAM SHARAN YADAV to the Bill. W. are proud alike of the Tajmahal (Khagaria): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am grateful to and Ajanta, of the delicate lines of the Agra you for giving me the time to speak. masjid or temple or the authenticity of that great temple at Konarak. Well, they should MR. SPEAKER: Please oonclude within go to Konarak and revive it. It is one of the two minutes. After that Shrimati Malini Bhat- magnificent structures that we ever think of tacharya will speak and then the hon. Minis- , that any art or civilization has produced ter will reply to the debate. anywhere. SHRI RAM SHARAN YADAV: Mr. Sir, our religion has nothing to do with Speaker, Sir, our ancestors called this coun- what is going on in the name of religion. The try a secular State and made a provision to essence of our religion,the thrust of our this effect in the Constitution also. Then what religion is not based on any revelation. All necessitated to bring this Bill? People be- attempt is being made to make induism as longing to all religions i.e. Hindus, Muslims religion on the basis of Judaic or on the basis Sikhs and Christians live here. Sir, this Bill of Semitic mould, though it is not. We have had to brought dueto the Ramjanma Bhoomi no revelation. Babri Masjid dispute .... (/ntemlptions)

Sri Ramakrishnan practised Islamic MR. SPEAKER: Please keep Babri Sadhanas.Hesays:~en,lusedtorepeat . Masjid and Ramjanam bhoomi out of it.... the name of Allah, wear my cloth in the (Interruptions) fashion of Mohammedans and recite Namaz regularly. He says. "And I have found that it SHRI RAM SHARAN YADAV: Mr. is the same Good towards whom all are Speaker, Sir, it is said that Rama was born at travelling, only they oome through diverse Ayodhaya. Tulsidasji has written in Ramchar- ways·. itmanas-

MR. SPEAKER: I did not allow Saleem "Bhaye prakat kripala deen dayala Saheb; 1 did not allow Digvijaya Singh to kaushalaya hitkari· make points off the mark, Please you also stick to the points in the Bill. Some people say that Kaushalayagave birth to Rama and so.me others believe that (/nt9rruptions. ) he was born as his mother has eaten kh_r in the utensil of Shringi Rishi. I would like to SHRI K.P UNNIKRISHNAN: This Bill say that only his mother Kaushalaya and has been necessitated by those clements father Dashratha knew the exact place where who have been fighting not merely secular he was born. Nobody else knows it. Just way of life but also misinterpreting 'Hindu now, when my friend made a mention about religion. Therefore. these elemants will have Ramjanambhoomi. some Members 'rom this 441 Places of WOIshi' BHADRA 19.1913 (SAKA) (SpsciaJ PlOvisions) BHI 442 aide attapked him. In the same way. these [English] people attack the Scheduled Castes. Sched-· u1edTrbes and the poor and suppress them. SHRIMATI MALINI BHATTACHARAYA About Ram&, Tulsidasji had said at one (Jadavpur): Sir. Thank you for allowing me place- time. ·1 will not say anything not pertaining to the Bill and I will just keep myself confined to some objections which have been made to '7um pavak mein Karahu nivasu. the Bm because I have been supporting this jab take karajhun nishachar naasu· Bill.

When they returned to Ayodhya Sitaji was Firstly, those who are opposing the Bill pregnant but she was made to sit on fire. make out that in some way or other this BiD Then who brought herto Ayodhya. (Interrup- is going to hurt the Hindus. It will endanger tions) the Hindus in some way. Now, Hinduism is the religion of at least 70 per cent people in our country. It has peen going on for 3.000 or It is a matter of justice. It should be 58en that 4,000 years. Hthis is the charge. this is a very Sitaji was sent to forest in the state of preg- serious charge and we should ponder what nancy. Once a Shudra named Shambuk dangers arise to the Hindus from this Bill. was doing penance.. Bu on the saying of a Brahmin Rama killed him, because the Let us look at· the Bill. Let us look at Shudra did not have the right to penance. In Clause 3 which is an effective Clause. Clause the regime of Rama, the Scheduled Castes 3 prohibits the conversion of one religious and Scheduled Tribes were not allowed to place into the place of worship of a different learn, to listen to the recitation of Vedas or to community. perform other religious 'Sonskaras'. Due to this reason only, Ramakilled Shambuk. Once Now, I ask you, .do Hindus want to Shri Jagjivan Ram went to Banaras to unveil convert the places of worship of a different the statue of Shri Sampunranand. When he community into their own -place of worship? left the place after the ceremony, the Brah- have they eyer wanted that? Do they now mins there purified the st~ue with cow- want it? There may be one or two such duing. Is a human being more unholy than Hindus here and there. I do not want to animal excreta? This conspiracy of the Brah- mention their names. But generally Hindus mins is going on for thousands of years. This never wanted that and, as such, they cannot is the justice of their Rama. be hurt by this Bill.

In Bihar, there is a Shiva temple known On the other hand, if we even admit as Baijnath Oham. Forthousands of years, it theoretically that Hindus are afraid of their was known by this name only. The statue of own places of worship being converted into Baiju, which was installed between the stat- something else, if as some of our friend say ues of Shiva and Parvati for thousands of Hinduism has suffered most as a result of all years was removed and kept at a distance of these conversions and demolitions, then, of one kilometer away by the priests because course. Hindus should all the more welcome Baiju Gop belonged to a backward class. Its this eill because it prevents their places of . name has been changed to Deoghar. I worship from being further converted. The demand from the Government that its origi- other point is about Jammu & Kashmir. This nal name Baijanath Oham should be re- point has been raised. It has been asked why stored. Jammu & Kashmir has been excluded. I 448 PIat:ea of.".. SEPlEMBER 10. 1911 (Spet:/tII PtOVisIDns) _ 444

[Shrimatl Mallni Bhattacharaya] religion and which gives equal 'rights to all the dlferant religious denominations. So. would say that I this bII exdudes Jammu & whatever may have happened before that. ~It 8XCIudea Jammu & Kashmir for we all axpected that from that date there the aame reason for· which Ayodhya is should be no such retrogression Into the excluded. Jammu & Kashmir Is a special past. or cou.... there has been much burt case •• need not have remained a special done In the past But to prevent more hurt case but for whatever reason the integration being cauaed by unacrupuloua, power-hun- of Jammu & Kashmir Into the whole of the gry palllcIana this immunly Is being offered nation hac not properly taken place and so It to places of worship of all communities. has remained as a spacial case, thanks to the poIitIcIaatfon of religion and now one Sir. It has also been objected that this more special case has been creatad in Bnl placates Muslims or,1t capitulates with Ayodhya arisen. Let me say that we do not the Muslim fundamentalist sentiments. I do want the especial C8888 to go on increasing. not agree (/nt"""",ions) This is what I am We want to put a atop to that and that Is why coming to. Of course, if our friends on this we wanted this BDltobe brought forward and side have been notorious for promoting ~sed. There should be no more special fundamentalism of one kind. our friends on cases. the other side have been equally notorious for promoting fundamentalism of many dif- Sir, Clause 4 states the cut-off date is ferent kinds. So, if some fear Is there, (don' 15th August. 1947 . Some speakers have think that It is entirely unjustified. But let us said that the cut-off date should not be that look at the Bin. and it should be from the time of Sabar or from 1000 A..D. or whatever it is when SHRI RAM NAIK: Sir, I don't think it is templeawerebeing demolished. Buttemples properto call one section of the Members as were being demoUshed even before that. It notorious. ("".".."".",s) haabeen mentioned that Hindu temple, have been demolished. by Hindus (lnterruptitms) SHRIMATI MALINI BHATTACHARYA: The Marland temple In Kashmir was de- If you abject to the word 'notorious' I will stroyed by Hindus - I am sorry to say - replace It by the word 'famous' atlppoSidly by the Hindus from Bengal. Shudhist temples were demolished and ( Int.""."ions) appropriated by Hindus. The British also pilfered temples and mosque SHRI K.P. UNNIKRISHNAN: It is not an equally••• (lnterruptions) If you want to go unparliamentary expression. ~ Into hIstory"n certainly we can say that no just a temple but a whole civiliza- SHRIMATI MALINI BHATTACHAR- tion, theciviRzationof Mahenjadaro. by some AYA: Sir, the question is: Does this BUI grant accounI8. was destroyed by the Ary.... So. any special favour to Muslim places of you can push back dates indefinitely. But I worIh~? I am so sony that, we have been think this August 15. 1147 is crucial because talking In this way. For the last two days. • on that daD we are 8UflPoaed to have h __mad that there are no other commu- 'emerged _ a modem. democtatic and nities in india apart from Hindus and Mus- 8CM11"81gn Stale thrusting back such barbar- I... • .. not true. That is why. we are ly into the .... one» and for aI, From thai dllcualng th.. 811. But anyway, doest" bill ...... aIIo dIIIInguIIhed ourutvea from grant any special favour to MuslIm places of f'aIdAMn _ StaIe'whIch ... no CJfficIaI ~? does not. Or would th... people BHADRA 19, 1913 (SAKA) (Spet:ItJJ~) _ 448

be....,fedonIyIfMUlHmpl... of~ make a apeciaI case of AyodhyL But .... were excluded from th" BII? Is that what can we do? Already a apeciaI cue has been they want? made of Ayodhaya. But since this is the situation, It ia belterthal this Issue should be Earlier on, onth. question ofth. Muslim aettIed through pucaful negotiations faIing Women's Act, a big Hindu backlash had which it should be settled ttvough court been deliberately fomented on the ground, verdict rather than through a parliamentary that is placated MusHms, and diacrlminlHd act which may seem to be impa ••d 110m against Hindus. But by now, not only the above. But If because, Ayodhaya has been Muslim women~ .but also the poor Muslm, excluded from this BB~ aorne people think the middle-class Mllslim whose divorced that they can use this exclusion of Ayochlya daughters have been retumed to them with- to appropriate the disputed structure and ... out means of subsistence, know that the site either by the State aov.nm.nr. dIdat , Muslim Women's Act which was supposed or by the whipping up popular sentiments. , to placate them has not benefited them in then, Sir, they are very much mistaken. And anyway. they can be sur. that if they try to do this. we are going to oppose it with aI our might. This Bill Is quite different from Muslin Women's Bill. It makes no discrimination Since 1949, taking advantage of Gov- between pIacea of worship of one commu- emment's weakness. inch by inch they have nity and another. This Is the most ImporW1t been moving into It!e disputed site wen thing. Of course, the Bill alms to Inspire whOelltigatlon is going OIl. I would cal upon confidence among the minorities. And this Is them to call a hal on thia procesa now once one of the most Important pre-condltiona of and for all and support the BlL And I th8y a democratic State. find time hanging heavy on their hands. then let them send their Kar &IrnlIcs to MaraIha- We have been hearing a lot about wada where In 70 per cent of temples. the emotional integration these days. But emo- Scheduled Castes are not allowed entry and tlonallntegratloncannotbe achieved through let the Kar SewMsgo and fight there for the fear and coercion. It has to be achieved right pf entry of Scheduled Castes into the through mutual tolerance. Our people know temples. If you do that; then the nation .. this. They do not mind side by aide co- bless you. In the meantime, pIe.. e do not try existence of temple.. mosques, gurudwaraa to oppose the Bm. and churdt... theirs Is an emotional Integra- tion which Is Behlevedthrough united struggle tHE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS against their common exploiters. So I would (SHRI S.B. CHAVAN): Sir. I must ..... say that this Bill is not a stricture on our my gratitude to the Members, on both .... people. It is only a stricture to protect the of the House. particularly. all those lion. people from the games played by politicians Members Who have expreaaed their SlippOIt around them. And I am glad that the Con- without any reseMllions and tried to e1uci- gress (I) Is putting this stricture on them- date in their own way. the provisions of the selve. too. We are very glad about it. This Is BilL precisely why we have no amendment.to include Ayodhya In this Bill. (1nt~) Specialy. my hen. friend. Shrt ManI Shankar Alyar. had told the entIr8 history of Although we think that Ayodhya is nat Hinduism from 7,000 y.... and came to the an exceptional case. It· has meNly been Advaitaphllosophy. preached by AdfShaM- inflated into one. We would have said, do not aracharya.1 hopethehon. Memberswho .. 447 Places of Worsh" SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (Special Pmvisions) Bill 448

[Sh. S. B. Chavan] to the joint session of the Parliament on 11 th July, 1991. I am very happy that in this sitting, on the other side, at least, believe in endeavour we have received the whole- Adi Shankarcharya and his philosophy and hearted support from most of the hon. the legacy which he had left for us. Members of. the House.

(Interruptions)' We see this Bill as a measure to provide and develop our glorious traditions of love, [ TtanslationJ peace and harmony. These traditions are part of a cultural heritage of which every SHRI. JASWANT SINGH (Chittorgarh): Indian is justifiably proud. Tolerance for all Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Minister should faiths has characterized ourgreat civilization also speak on this Bill (Interruptions) since time immemorial.

[English] Thesetraditions of amity. harmony and mutual respect came under severe strain SHRI S.B.CHAVAN: I thank the hon. during the pre-independence period when Members who have participated in the dis- the colonial power sought to actively create cussion and have given their valued com- and encourage communal divide in the ments and observations on this momentous· ,country. After independence we have set Bill. (Interruptions) about healing the wounds of the past and endeavoured to restore our traditions of SHRI BUTA SINGH (Jalore): Is talking communal amity and goodwill to their past about Hindu religion. the prerogative of the glory. By and large we have succeeded, BJP only? Can anybody else not speak although there have been, it must be admit- about the Hinduism? I take a strong objected, some unfortunate setbacks. Rather than tion to the remarks of Shri Jaswant Singh. being discouraged by such setbacks, it is our We are good Hindus as you are. (/ntsmJp- duty and commitment to take lesson from tions) them for the future.

SHRI S.B. CHAVAN: In fact,I am more I recent years, however. we have no- interested in getting this Bill passed rather ticed with anxiety an alarming rise of intoler- than go into the controversy• You know about ance which is propagated by the certain the prophecies of Shri Adi Shankaracharya sections for their narrow vested interests. and his philosophy. 1need not tell you all that. One of the methods being used by such My only request to all of you is, please do not elements to further their interests is taking create a feeling of animosity between differ- resort to forcible conversion of places of ent sections of the society and mixing relig- worship to create new disputes and to rake ion with politics, which in fact has been up old controversies which have long been mainly responsible for bringing this Bill of this forgotten by the people. We consider it nature. necessary to take steps to put an immediate end to such unfortunate conflicts and fore- But. it is for you hon. Members. to con- close any new controversies. This Bill. which sider this momentous Bill, which has been we hope to enact into· law with the help of all brought by the government in pursuance of progressive forces represented in this au- the promise in the election manifesto of the gust House, seeks to achieve this objective. Indian National Congress (I). and the declaration made by the President in his address The Bill prohbits any person from con- 449 'PIat:Its of WolSh." BHADRA 19, 1913 (SAKA) (SpBCiaJ Ptrwishns) BiR 450 verting any place of worship of any religious Thus, it would be seen that far ~rom denomination or any section thereof into a generating such controversies this Bill will pace of worship of different section of the effectively act to achieve the central objec- same'religious denomination or of a different tive, i.e. to foreclose any new controversy religious denomination or any section thereof. about the religious character of a place of It also declares that the religious character of worship. place of worship existing on the 15th day of August, 1947 shall continue to be the same With these remarks I strongly commend as it existed on that day. Penalties have' this Bill to the Members of this august House been prescribed not for contravention, but and request them to pass it unanimously. also for attempts and abetment. MR. SPEAKER: There are two amend- This Bill, thus, seeks to prohibit and ments moved for the consideration of this make punishable forcible conversions of Bill. Shri Girdhari Lal Bhargava and Shri places of worship. Thereby it strives to fur- Madan LaI Khurana have moved those ther safeguard the freedom of religion guar- amendments. anteed by Articles 25 and 26 of the Constitu- tion. There cannot be any doubt about the Now Shri Girdhari lal Bhargava. constitutional validity of the Bill. [ Translation] We have taken note of certain apprehensions and misgivings that have been SHRI GIRDHARI lAl BHARGAVA expressed about the likely impact of this Bill. (Jaipur): Mr. Speaker, Sir, a lot of discussion It has been said that this Bill, particularly the has already taken place on it. I would like to provisions of Clause 4, wOllead to a spate of draw the attention of the House only to 2-3 controversies where the religious character points. First of all, the State of Jammu and of a place of worship has changed on the Kashmir ... normal course. A carefu' perusal of clause 4 will quickly dispel this m!jagiving. I would like to draw the attention of tfle han. Members to MR. SPEAKER: Why it should be sent sub-clause (3) of clauSe 4 which lists the for circulation. As this is your amendment, exemptions. Ancient monuments or archaeo- you have to speak on this. Please be brief. logical sites or remains covered by the Ancient Monument and Archaeological Sites and SHRI GRIDHARILAl BHARGAVA: Mr. Remains Act, 1959 and s!milar.iegislations Speaker, Sir, the statement of objects and are out.of the purview of--this Bill. So are reasons in this Bill says that the Bill will help those places of worship in respect of which solving he disputes and bringing amity among any suit, appeal or proceeding-: has been the communities. But in my opinion, there finally decided before the commencement of will be adverse results. During the Muslim this act. Similarly sites in resPect of which rule in our country, thousands of temples such disputes have been sett~ by the parties were demolished and mosques were built in amongst themselves are exiluded. Conver- their place. (Interruptions) sion by acquiescence eff~ded before the commencem8ntofthis act are also excluded. The same was done by the Muslim Finally those conversions which are time during the partition also, but the Hindu barred under any law of limitations are also community has never lost its balance. No excluded. Hindu ever demolished a mosque. Mr. Spe __, SIr,· the iIaue of Ram ...... out 01 the Jurladlctlon SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: Mr. 01 ... BII. but .. ." ,...an belonging to Spa_r. Sir my .ubmlsslon Is that til now. tIndu COIIIm\dy b.... that lord Krishna no riot has taken place in the country in the ..born"Idph ..,.., 11ne partaof name of demolahing a temple or a mosque . .. vw..n.th ...... demoli8hed. TheNfore. there was no need to bring .uch n...... thII .. CDnIIIruct8d over. can .811. The riots have taken Place due to other be .... .,.,.....,. What I mean to say Is reasons. • should be seen what those rea- ...... -=-- 01 temple. where the dernoli- eons were. The Home 'Minlst.. should teU Ian .. clell'lr vIIIbIe IUCh _ the birth place about a single riot since 1947 which h_ 01 laid Kriahna and the VIIhwanaIh temple taken place In the country In the name of ...... demoIIIIhed." Aurangzeb and a . demc;tlishlng a temple a mosque or a church • ...... CDMtructed .... must be consld- That Is not the reason for the quarrel. (In,.,...... ,...... pIacee•.• (·tJt."..",.".., IUptiJns)

'TheNIcn. thia .. only Increase the [Englsh) ...... , ...... the HIndus and the Mua- Ima and the objective 01 the BII is acIUaIy MR. SPEAKER: Now I am putting the nat going 10 be full*i. The Congress has Amendments to the Motion for Considera- onIr adoIDd the poley of appeasement tion. moved by Shri Girdhari lei Bhargava trs .... the ...... (~s) The and Shrl Madan LaI Khurana. together to the 00\...... II pIarIng with the f_lngs of vate of the House. cnna 01 HInduL ThenIIont, I would like to submlthIIt incleferencetothef_lings of the tIndua and tD SIDp the quarrel between the IIndus and the Muslims. this ~ should be MR. SPEAKER: The question is: ...... _there is no need for such a bill "That the Bill to prohibit conversion of SHRI MADAN tAL KHURANA: Mr. any place of worship and to provide for the Sp.II.... Sir, my submiasion is that none of maintenance of the religious character of .. rials which took place in the country any place of worship as it existed on the 15th since 1147 was ba.ed on this day of August. 1947. and, for matters con- ...... (~ nected therewith or .Incidental thereto, be taken into conaldwratlon.· IEnJlshl

.... SPEAKER: I would request you pi ••• to ... hin 10 speak. He has as MR. SPEAKER: Now, the House wiD much rWC - you have. taka up Clause-by~lau.. consideration of the 81. IT,.., fbn) . SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: Mr. Clause 2 Sp sar.lwouId ..the House to come outI" ... •. an inItance since 1947 where a riot SHRI. S.B. CHAVN: I Beg to move: ....1IIIriIn piece in the Mme of • temple or .,_...(~ -Page 1,- .. PIat:tI8 of WotshtI, .·BIfAPRA 19, 1913 (SAKA) (Sp«:iaI PtrwIsIons) BII 454.

(I) After line 9 Ins"'- .as 'MaIang' after the names of saints and these places are found mainly in north Bihar '(a) ·Commencement of this Ad· and Uttar Pradesh. On those places both means the commencement of this Hindus and Muslims offerthair prayers aven Act on the 11th day of July, 1991 ;-. today but the word 'MaIang' has not been included in this Bill. Lke-wise, there is a (il) Ine 10, - Brahma-Asthan almost in each village, which is often established on some Gair-Mazarua for·(a) substltute·(b) land, so, the word 'Math' also must be inserted in the Bill so that the land of the (ill) line 12, - Brahm-Asthans may not be encroached by for .(b) 'Substitute·(c) (2) any one. Thus, I thblk there is remote chance of any quarrel between Hindus and Muslims. SHRI KAMLA MISHRA MADHUKAR ( Motiharl): I beg to move; PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT: I would like to speak on the dausel. "Page 1, line 13,- MR SPEAKER: You, sit down please. after·monastery- insell- [English]

Malang-Sthan, Brahm-Sathan, Oevi- MR SPEAKER: I shall now put Amend- Sahan-(9) ment No.2 moved by Shri S.B.Chavan to the vote of the House. PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT (Ajmer): I beg to move: ·Page 1,Iine 13,- The question is :

atter·monastary· inse,,·Oargah· (25) "Page 1.

[Translation] . (i) alte, line 9 insen-

SHRI KAMLA MISHRA MADHUKAR (a) "commencement of this Ad' (Motihario(: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I fully support means the commencement of this Bin as wen as. the view expressed by our this At:d on the 11th day of July, party leader on this Bill. Sir, I would Ike to 1991. move a short amendment in it. Hon. Minister of Home Affairs is requ_ed to give a seri- (ii) line 10- ous thought to it. There is a place named Malang in Bihar, Hindus and Muslims were claiming that the place belonged to them' . respectively. A Hindu-Muslim riot could be (iii) line 12,- avoided with a great difficulty on this issue. After consulting the 'VlShwa Hindi Shabd for· (b) Substitute: (c)· (2) Kosh', I found out the meaning of the word, 'Malang'. This word has its origin from the ThB motion was Aadopted Sufi rsect of Islam. The names of certain saints appear in this sect, who led their I~es MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put Amend- almost like Fakirs. Thus the places are named ment Nos. 9 and 25 moved by Shri Kamla SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (Special PlOvislons) BiI ~

MishraMadhukararwl~RasaSingh Rawat after -WOrship- insert· respectively the vote of the Hoose. "or any part thereof- (33) The Amendment No.9 and 2S we,. put and negatived Page 1, line 19,-

tvlR SPEAKER: Now lam putting Clause add at the end - 2 as amended to the vote of the House. "For any purpose other than that of a The question is: place of worship-(34) "That Clause 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill·. [ Translation]

The mtion was adopted. SHRI SYEO SHAHABUDDIN (Kishan- ganj): The amendment which has been Clause 2, as amended was added to the BRI moved by me has been discussed yesterday and today also.·1t appears from the wordings Clause 3, of clause 3 that a religious place belonging to a particular religion has been oonverted into MR. SPEAKER: There are five amend- another religious place belonging to some ments to Clause 3 to be moved by Shri Syed other religion. This sort of act will bound to be Shahabuddin, Shri E. Ahmed and Shri Saito objected : But if any religious place is con- Are you moving your amendments. verted into a place of residence or shop, or a wine shop or a place to the used for any other SHRI SYEO SHAHABUOOIN: Yes Sir, purpose except religious purposes then there I beg to move: is no objection .•. You have bust now passed the clause regarding oonversion. It is written in that clause that :- Page 1, line 16,- [English] Alter"Worship· inself Conversion includes any alteration or "Or any other part thereof,· (11) change of whatever nature.

Page 1, line 19,- [ Translation]

add at the end - This clause should be made more comprehensive and specific by adding some ·Orinto a place of residence or work of words·or into a place of residence or work or for any other use or purpose·(I2) for any other use or purpose-, so that objections may also be raised on the conversation SHRI E. AHAMED: I beg to move: of such religions place into a place to be used for any other purpose other than the Page 1,line 16,- religious purpose. At present the clause 81- . lows the objection to be raised on the oon- alter-convert" insert-or alter" (32) version of Mosque into .temple and vice- versa. I think these words have been left Page 1. line 16.- unintentionaly in the clause. It may be a BHADRA 19,1913 (SAKA) (SpsciaJPlOvislons)_ 458 mistake of translation. I do not have any people had gone aaoss the border to Paki- doubt on the ·intention of the Government. stan. certain places of worship had been But I apprehend that the bureaucrats might converted into CXJW· sheds or ~idential not have imparted a proper and adequate accomodation. The entire pUrpose of the BUI advice to the Govt. That is why the clause is to forecloSe the places of worship being could not be made specific. so the lacunae converted into places of worship of another must be removed by adding the words:- religion. Hfor any other work they have been converted and if there is any dispute it will be [Eng/ish] . decided according to Section IV (1).

or into a place of residence or work orfor MR. SPEAKER: Now. I shall put amend- any other use or purpose. ment numbers 11 and 12 to the vote of the House. [TRllJslation] Amendments No. 11 and 12 were put and These words should be inserted in the clause. negatived Shri Inderajit had also suggested the same thing yesterday. And today also many of the SHRI. E. AHAMAD (Manjeri): I seek hon. members have made their submissions leave of the House to withdraw my amend- on this line. Hence. I would like to request the ment 32. 33 and 34. hon. Minister to give his full consideration on my suggestion. MR. SPEAKER: Has the hon-member taken leave of the House to withdraw his [Eng/ish] amendments.

SHRI E. AHAMED: In view of what Shri SEVERAl HON: MEMBERS: Yes Shahabuddin has already said, I do not want to make a speech. My only purpose is that The Amendment No. 32, 33 and 34 were the hon. Home Minister may kindly add at the by /eave, withdrawn end the words "for any purpose other than that of a place of worship-. I say this because MR. SPEAKER: Now. I shall put Clause sometimes some sections belonGi;19 1(> a 3 to the vote of the House. religious denomination might have l .. ,,~·1 a part of the place of worship either for shops The Question is: orfor something else. Therefore, my conten- tion is· that these words "for any purpose "That Clause 3 stand part of the Bill.- other than that of a place of worship- be added. This type of conversion into shops or The motion was adopted something other than places of worship should not be permitted. Clause 3 was added to the BiR

SHRI S~B. CHAVAN: I would like to Clause 4 clarify the position with regard to the point raised by Shri Shahabuddin and Shri Ahamed. Shri Indrajft Gupta also stated that SHRI SYED SHAHABUDDIN: Sir. I beg. there were certain cases where religious to move that places of worship have been used for other purposes. He mentioned that when some Pag~ 2, line 1. - SEPTEMBER 10. 1191 fSIItIt* ~J - 480

[Sh. Syed ShahabuddIn) Omit lines 19 to 22 (18)

D-Itls hetebydeclalrKJlhattht/'subatI- Page2.- lUte -TIN/' (13) omilines 29 and 30.- (19) Page 2. line 1.- PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT: Sir. I aIIer '1'fIIigIoId' Insert beg to move that:

"or denominational'" (14) Page 2.-

Page 2. Ina 1.- (I) line 2,

after -chsrtIt;tsI" ns.t -or ~ (15) for -15th day of August. 194T substi- tuta- . Paga2.- , '2Jth day of January, 1990.

(i) for 11188 4 to 10. substitut. (Ii) line 8,-

"(2) On the commencement of this Ad. for "15th day of August, 194.,. no sut or other proceeding aaakIng to alter or change the religious or denominational substitute- "26th day ofJanuary, 1950'· character or Identity of a place of worship as existing of the 15th day of August. 1947 shaH (in) line 14,- Ie in court. trbJnal or other authority.· for "15th. day 01 A&.vust, 194.7" substi- Provided that if any suit, appeal orothar pmcaading insttutad or field on the tut.· ground that conversion has taken place 26th day of January, 1950-(28) In the ralgious character or identity of a place of worship before the 15th day Of Page 2,- AUgust, 1947 is pending on the commencement of this Ad. such suit. ap- after line 35, insert- peal or other procaeding shaD be dis- poead of In accordance with law as then In~. -(t) anyplace of worship which has baan deserted, rejected, dilapi- (Ii) Rna 11,- dated or otherwise remains without any title of ownership due to after ·PIOvidfJt:r Insert ·furthtN" (16) large scala exodus of po.,ulation from India to Pakistan and vice- Page 2. line 15,-

OmIt-shail not so abate ana every such (g) any place of worship which has suit appeal or ather proceedtng- (17) bean converted into place of worship by another community Page!.- and where worship by that par- BHADRA 19, 1913 (SA.KA) (Sp«:Ia/ Ptovis/ons) BIt 482

ticulareommunlty hasconatantly I think this dlstinctlon goes against the bMn going on and which iI under spirit of the rule of law. It stifles legal pro- the own.-shlpofthatcommunlty ceedingwlthoutany reason whahioever and , for the past 40 y88l'8; and therefore, my submission Is that cases which are pending. whether they relate to events ' (h) any place of worship ~ich has prior or after. should be permitted to be been built on the land belonging decided In accordance with the law. That is to anathercomrnunityordisputed the basic amendment that is contained in land allotted by the Rehabilita- Amendment number 18 and 17. And the rest tion Department after partition of .... Its qical consequences. India-. (27) (T,."SIation] MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Ahamed, your Amendments no. 35 and 36 .... the sam. as PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT: Mr. 15 and 18 respectively which have already Speaker. Sir. our country was divided Into been moved. Are you moving Amendment two nation.- India and Pakistan- on the number37? 15th August. 1947- the day India became Independent. lakhs of people came to India SHRI. E. AHAMEO: No, Sir, I am not from Pakistan and lakhs of people went to moving. Pakistan from India at that time making the ~nofourcountryveryodd. Suchdrcum- SHRI. sveo SHAHABUOOIN: Sir. stance led to certain chang.. in the situation permit me to explain it to the House. several places of worship belonging to a particular community. In the circumstances, MR. SPEAKER: As a matter of right you I would Uke to stJggestthat It would be proper to not apeak. For hours were allotted and it if a decision will be taken on the places of alrwdy took 8 hours. worship taking into account the situation prevaiUng on the day on which Indiabecame SHRI. sveo SHAHABUOOIN: I did not Republic i.e. the 26th Jan. 1950 because on open my mouth In the debate. Sir. the basic this day we adopted our own Constitution. point that I wish to make is that I will not emphasise all my amendments. The basic 18.00 hr. thing I am saying is that the Bill makes a distinction between the events of conversion [English] that have taken place before 15th August. 1947 and those which have taken place after SHRI. E. AHAMEO: This Bill strength- 15th August. 1947. It rightly says that no suit ens the secular character of our country and .hallle in future based on a claim prior to everybody, from all sections of the House, 15th August. 1947. Everyone in this House have welcomed It. Section 15(4)(1) is the has practically accepted this. But when a most important Section. case is lingering. when a legal proceeding is pending in the case of those conversions which have taken place after 15th August. It says: -It is hereby declared that the 1947 the Bil says that the legal proceeding religious character of a place .haH continue am in the cases where the of worship existing on the 15th events have taken place before 15th August, day of August. 1947 shaH '1947 it puts an arbitrary ban on It and says continue to be the same as it that the caaea wli abate. existed on that day" 463 Places of Wotshp SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (Spec/aJ Pmvisions) Bil 464

[Sh. E. Ahamad) I shall now put Amendments number 26 and 27 moved by Shri Rasa Singh Rawat to My humble request to the han. Home Minis- the vote of the House. ter is that afterthewords "'reIigiouschsracte,. the words "or identity- be added. b will be Ths Amsndments Nos. 26 & 27 were put quite appropriate and it will only strengthen, and ntJgatived more the secular charader. There is abs0- lutely nothing wrong in it. MR. SPEAKER: The question is :

SHRt S.B. CHAVAN: Sir, the whole "That Clause 4 stands part of the Bill-. concept is that all cases pending on that particular date, that is, 15, August, 1947, The motion was adopted shalt abate. If we try to make a distinction between those cases which have been Clauss 4 was added to ths Bill abated on 15 August, 1947 and those cases which have been pending as on 15 August, [ Translation] 1947.·there wiD be an insidious distinction. That is why, I feet that there is hardly any SHRI MOHAN SINGH (08Oria): I beg to justification for accepting this Amendment. move,

SHRt SYED SHAHABUDDIN: Sir•.• Page 2,-

MR. SPEAKER: No. I am not allowing a for clause 5 supstitute debate on it. Please take your seat. "5. (1) That the dispute in- SHRI SveD SHAHABUDDIN: The volving the place (s) of question is not whether the case has already worship common Iy known been abated. You are abating this, underthis as Ram Janam Bhoomi- Bill and I am saying abatement in one case Babri Masjid shall be ad- and continuance in the other, is arbitrary and judicated by a special wrong. bench of the Supreme Court and the final judge- MR.SPEAKER: I shall now put the ment'delivered within six Amendments number 13, 14, 15, 16,17,18 months from the date of and 19 moved by Shri Shahabuddin Syed to reference. the vote of the House. (2) All suits, appeals and Amendmsnt Nos. /3, 14, 15, 16~ 17, 18 & other proceedings, involv- 19 wers put and nsgatived ing the place or places of worship com monIyknown as Ram Janam Bhoomi- SHRt E. AHAMEO: I am not ... Babri Masjid, pending before any court, tribunal MR. SPEAKER: You don't have to, or other authority shall be because your Amendments number 35 and transferred to the special 36 are identical to that of Amendments bench of the Supreme number 15 and 18, which are already nega- Court, in pursuance of tived. sub-section (1) and no 485 PIacss of WolSh" BHADRA 19,1913 (SAKA) (SpeciaJPlOvisions) Bill 466

other court shall have the UPage2,- right to entertain any suit, application, petition or after line 38, ;nsel1- appeal involving the adju- dicated place. -(2) Nothing contained in this Ad, shall apply to,- (3) (a) The decision of the court shall be binding on (i) the places of worship commonly all parties notwithstand- known as Krishna Janma Bhumi in ing anything contained in Mathura, Vishwanath temple in any law for the time being· Varanasi in Uttar Pradesh, and in force. Somnath temple in Gujarat; and

(b) Defiance by any association or body (II) such places of worship as have or party or organisation or an indi- been converted by anotf:Jer com- vidual of the decision of the Su- munity due to partition of th$ coun- preme Court shall make such as- try and exchange of population from sociation, body, party, organisa- one country to another and if such tion or individual liable or action places of worship have been so under the National Security Ad, converted for the last 30 years or 1980". more. (28)

[Eng6sh] [ Translation]

SHRI SHAHBUDDIN SYED (Kishan- SHRI MOHAN SINGH: Sir, the Amend- ganj): I beg to move: ment I have moved here has some specific purpose. The largest controversy regarding "Page 2, line 36,- place of worship which arose after 15th August, 1947 was due to conversion of a for "Ram Janma Bhumi-Babri Masjid" Mosque into a temple, and if we let the issue substitute - unnoticed, the very purpose of moving this Amendment Bill in the House is defeated "Babri Masjid, which is claimed to be and particularly in the circumstances when Ram Janam Bhoomi" (20) the Uttar Pradesh Government openly says that it has got the public mandate for con- SHRI RAM NAIK (Bombay-North): Ibeg struding the temple on that controversial to move: site. (Interruptions) There is a clear statement on this issue ... (/ntem.tptions) Page 2, line 37,- MR. SPEAKER: Confine yourseH to the a1te,·Ayodhya" ;nsel1- Amendment only and be brief.

-and Krishna Janmabhumi situated in Mathura and Kashi Vishwanath situ- SHAI. MOHAN SINGH: They say that

ated in Varanasi.It no mosque existed there; they will definitely construct a temple there at any PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT (Ajmer): cost ... (Interruptions) Hwe rely on the reports I beg to move: appealed today in the 'Jan-Satta', construe- .te7 PIet»tJ at Mnht:» SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (Spet:/aI Ptov8it:IM) _ 418·

[Sh. Mohan Singh) d~ buDding has been mentioned as SabrI MasjId. The affidaVit also aaysthat this lion of the said temple has already started building has always been known as SabrI there.. (Jiiterruptlons) MasjId. I want to say that the appropriate words for that building were: In such circumstances, if we let the issue unnoticed, the very objective of this BU. (Englsh] wit be defeated. So, I would Hke to suggest . that this ant.. Issue of the Ram.Janam- -Known as Babri Mas)id, which laclaimed Bhooml-Babrt Masjld may be entrusted to a to be Ram Janam Bhoomr. constitutional bench of the Supreme Court and the Bench should deliver its decision [Ttanslation] within 6 months; The decision of the Court shall be binding on aD. Only by doing so, we These were the appropriate words and this is can achieve the purpose of this Bill. the objective of our brethren as well. They say that the Babir Masjld is the birth place of I would Ike to conclude my submission Ramchandra jee. That is why the words with one more sentence. Our Gurujl. Shri used in the Affidavit are different from the Dixit for whom Govemment record. So my submission Is that- I have a great regard, has just quoted: [English] -JAKE PRIYE NA RAM VAIOEHI~ TAJIYE TAHI KOTI BAIRI SAM, A correction should be made. It should YADYAPI PARAM SANEHr. be brought in line with the official record of the Government of Uttar Pradesh and the In this context. I would like to point out Govemment of India. that he has left worshipping Vaidehi and started worshipping Shri Ram only; so I also left him. Seoondly ... (/nterruptbns) [Ttanslation)

MR. SPEAKER: No, Mohan Singhji, do SHRI RAM NAIK (Bombay North): Mr. not indulge in such a long speech. Please Speaker, Indians, particularly the devotee of take your seat. Shri Shahabuddin. Rama, have a particular attachment for Ram Janma Bhoomi. Similarly, the people of. aU. SHRI SYEO SHAHABUOOIN: Mr. religions have pious feeling for the temple of Speaker, Sir. I have put a simple Amend- Kashi VlShwanath and Krishna Janmab- ment as it 1& mentioned in this clause: hooml that is why I say; ...

[English] [EngBsh]

"The places or place of worship com- "and Krishna Janmabhuml situated In monly known as Ram Janma Bhuml-Babri Mathura and Kashl Vlshwanath aituated In Masjid.· Varanasl.-

Now I wantfD tell you that in the affidavit flied [Translation] in the court by the district magistrate on behalf 01 Uttar Pradesh Govemment the I want to say that as Ram janmabhuml BHADRA 18, 1913 (SAKA) (Sp«:IaJ PtrwIsJDns),. 470 has been kept out of the purview of the bill, Amendment No. Bwasputand fIfI(IIIIIve similarly Krishna janmabhumi and Kashi Viswanath temple must be kept out of Its MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put the purview. WIth this intention I have moved my Amendment No. 20 to Clause 5 to the vote of arnMdment and lwantthatthe Houaeahould the House . .aocept It. Amendment No. 20 was put and negatNed PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT: Hon. Speaker. faith and beHer can not be changed MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put the with the force of law. I have moved my Amendment no.22 to Clause 5 to the vote of amendment to this clause with this intention. the House. Many of our brothers said in the House that BJP_..ftan(ts isolated on this issue. I will give Amendment No.22 MIS put and IIfI{IStIved an example. A tree was set on fire by mischievous person. Thousands of birds were MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put the silting on It. A wise person Oka you, Mr. Amendment no. 28 to Clause 5to the vote of Speaker, who was passing by said to the the House. . bird ... Amendment No. 28 was put and negatived -Aag lagl Is Virksha Ko, Jalne Laage Paat, MR SPEAKER: The question is: Tum Kyon Jalte Pakshio, Pankh Tu- marhe Saath.· "That Clause 5 stand part d the Bil. •

The birds, who were as wise as our The motion MIS adopted Advanl j88 replied:- Clause 5 was added to the BUI ·Phal Khaye Is Virksh Ke, Gande Kine Paat, ClauseS Yehi Hamara Dharam Hai,JaIange Isike Saath.- SHRI KAMLA MISHRA MADHUKAR: I beg to move: India is a oation and our culture is its soul. The lord Rama, Lord She Krishna and Page 2, lines 42 and 43,- the Lord Shiva of Kashi Vishwanath are the ideals of our culture. My amendment is that for ·(2) Whoever attempts to commit the birth place of lord She Krishna, Mathura any offence publishable under sub-section and Kashi Vishwanath, Shivashankar's (1)· temple be kept out of the purview of the bill just ..the Ram Janma Bhumi has been kept Substitute- out. -(2) Any offence punishable under sub- (English] section

MR. SPEAKER: Now I shall put amend- (1)sha11 be recognizable offence ment No. 8 moved by Shrf. Mohan Singh to and whoever attemplSto commit the vote of the House•. the offence,10) 471 . Places of WoIShj) SEPTEMBeR 10, 1991 (Special Provisions) BIR 472

PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT: I beg to [Eng/ish] move: MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put the Page 2, line 40,- . Amendment No. 10 to Clause Stothe vote of the House. tor"'three· substitute "'two· (29) Amendment No. 10 was put I!Ind Nega- [ Translation] tived

SHRI KAMLA MISHRA MAOHUKAR MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put the (Motihari): Mr. Speaker. Sir the purpose of Amendment No. 29 to ClauSe 6 to the vote of my amendment is to strengthen the bill which the House. embodies your feelings. you have referred to the amendment in this clause. Those who Amendment No.29 was put and negatived violate this Law will be liable for punishment. I suggest that the Government must make it [ Translation] a cognisable offence and initiate action at there own-govemment must not depend on MR. SPEAKER: The question is: others so that the laws could be implemented properly. This is because you have "That Clause 6 stand part of the Bill" heard the speeches in the House, which have challenging tone their own will. There- The motion was adopted fore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, my amendment may Clause 6 was added to the Bill please be accepted. Clauses 7 and 8 were added to the Bill

PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT: Mr. Clause' Speaker, Sir, this bill as a whole and its all clauses make it a black law in the history of India. I am stating it because this bill was SHRI. S.B. CHAVAN: I beg to move: discussed in the House for eight hours. The "- atmosphere was tense during the debate on Page 1, line 7,-. this Bill. So when this bill will be passed~ the for Hit shall be deemed·, same atmosphere will be created in the whole country. (/ntemJptions) Substitute: "The provisions of section 3,6 and 8 The people of Congress, Janata Oal shall come into force at and leftist parties are playing the politics of once ancIthe power. My plea is that our country will remain remaining provisions of a secular country so long as Hindus are in this Ad. shaD majority in this country. The day Hindus are be deemed· (1) reduced to minority, the country will cease to be a ~lar one (/ntemJptions) SHRt RAM NAIK: I beg to move:

This country will received. Today what Page 1, lines 5 and 6,- is happening us Iraq and Iran? This is our mother lanet. I wish that my amendments Omit .. except the State of Jammu and shouJd be accepted. Kashmir:"(21 ) 413 Plat:esolWotslJjl r ,BH~RA 19.1913 (SAKA) (SpecIal PlOvisionf) BiB 474

, PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT: I beg to in this bill because the situation which has move: arised in Jammu and Kashmir is very dan- gerous for the unity and integrity of the • Page 1.- country. Whether Jammu-Kashmir is not an integral part of India? Similarly, Vishwanath Omitlines 7 and 8 (24) temple of Kashi and and birth place of Lord Krishna in Mathura should also be included SHRI RAM NAIK: I beg to move: in this.

That in the amendment proposed by One thing I would like to say that the Shri. S •• B.Chavan and printed as S. No.1 in members belonging to ruling party and their List No. 1 of Amendments.- allies must be feeling happy that the B.J. P. is left alone here. Genius is always emerges for -at once- substitute- from among millions. There are many stars 1rom 1st January. 1992- (30) in the sky but the moon and sun alone can remove the darkness. One pestle becomes [ Translation] enough to deal with" several grains in the mortar. Only one lion is enough among Mr. Speaker, Sir, my amendment is several animals in the forest. regarding omission of Jammu and Kashmir. My amendment is that the provision -except [English] State of Jammu-Kashmir- should be omit- tad. I know that this clause is always in- SHRI. S.B.CHAVAN: Entry 28 of Sev- cluded in the Acts. Yet, I have suggested the enth Schedule is still not applicable to Jammu amendment because I want to know from the and Kashmir. The claim is being made by Government whether this house and the some of the hon. Members that hundreds of Government has the right to introduce abill Mandirs have been destroyed. My informa- in this regard. When hundreds of temples tion is that there are no cases pending in any have been destroyed in Jammu-Kashmir 'of the courts of law. So, this Bill when it is during last three or four years, despite the converted into another. (/nterruptions).lthink fact that there is no assembly in Jammu- , you have to listen what I have to say. You Kashmir. Hence. bringing this amendment mayor may not agree. But my point of view before the House, I want to know from the is for making applicable any of the enact- Government that if it has the constitutional ments passed by this House, there is a right to introduce a bill for Jammu and Ka- special procedure laid down, Government shmir. whether it will introduce a bill regard- has not still taken any decision on that. ing those temples also which have been destroyed in Jammu-Kashmir. I know that MR. SPEAKER: The question is that there are only 5-6 days for prorogation of the Amendment No. 30 which is an session. You will bring an ordinance in this amendment ... (Interruptions) 'l regard and even then we are ready to sup- , port your ordinance. What does the Govern- SHRI RAM ANIK: Amendment to ment want to do in this connection? amendment, I have to speak. I have not spoken. I have only spoken about Jammu PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT: I too and Kashmir. hold the same opinion. I agree with Shri Nayakjae and I would like to request that MR. SPEAKER: I said that you SJ)8akon Jammu and Kashmir should also be included both of them. SEPTEMBER 10, 1111··.. (SpecIal PIovItJIDtM) _ 478 cOme Into force with effect from 11th July. You wll find that. SHRI RAM NAIl<: Mr. Spa.ar, Sir, I .... put an amendment to the amendment bIought by bon. Home MInister. It h_ been (Englsh] said In the original amendment that this bill should be enacted immediately. For this, I lit were come Ike that haw given an amendment. (T~ (EngIsh) What .. there In clause No.3? It should come from 1st January, 1992. (Englth] (TI8tJSI8Iion) No peraon shall convert any place of Mr. Speaker, Sir, When this bill was worship of any religious denomination etc, introducad In this House, you know that we etc. raised an objection that we have not been giv8n tine to study it. That time the state- [ TtanSIatbJ) ment read:- . (EngIsh) It reads that this Ad would have come Into force with effect from 11 th July. My In view ci the Importance of the BII v8ry objecIion is that you are not serious about it. cantfuI coneIderatJon and Scrutiny of the It requl .... proper attention. Therefore, I told draft .. nee.aery. ThJs delayed circula- that time that this black bill Is being brought tion crf the BiI in~ introduction e1IC. In • haste. Whath_compalledyouto amend IE. • now? I have put up an amendment because Government should have drafted It (T,..btJon) ptaparly. The House must be unanimous on ...... So. I urge the HouHtoaupport my amendment to amendment. Mr. Speaker, SIr, In .. there .. 8 eedlo.-. in thia bit It h8s baeri said that th. (EngIth) draft ...... prapantdvetycantfuly.l. Is ., .... - SHRI S.B. CHAVAN: SIr,' I would lleeto clarify. AI other sections they are going to be (SV' IJ) IIPPkat*t from 11 July, 1991.

WIthin 5-7 days the Gowmment comes But the punitive section cannot have a to U8 ... say thai they want to amend four retroIpectlve effect. That is why only that HCIion wi have praapective effect That" ••••• the only pwpoM. (Ttarr.'1l1rMj SHRI RAM NAil<: Why? 1hua the ...... of the drafting a .... document he has pra ••nted ... Is SHRI S.~VAN: Do you want it to unique In ...... a.nuldin It that it.. be~lve? BHADRA 19, 1Q13 (&AKA) {SptIcIaI PtovItJItIM} BII 478

SHRI RAM NAIK: But why did you not The motion was ac/otXsd think about it when you bro.ught this Bill? That is what I am asking. Clause 1, as An]snded, was added to tIIeBRI . MR. SPEAKER: I am now putting amendment No. 30 moved by Shri Ram Naik MR. SPEAKER: The question is: to the vote of the ttouse. '1'hat the Enacting Formula and the Amendment No.3D was put and negatived Long Title stand part of the Bill.-

MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put Govem- ment amendment No. 1 to the vote of the The Enacting Formula and long title wsre House. The question is: added to the B81.

Page 1, line 7, ~R.SPEAKER: The Minister may now move that the Bill, as amended, be passed. to".1t shall be deemed-, . SHRIS.B.CHAVAN:SIr,lbegtomove: SubstitUl" The provisions of sections 3,6 and 8 '1'hat the Bill, as amended, be passed-. shall come into force at once and the MR. SPEAKER: Motion moved: remaining provisions of this Ad shall '1'hat the BDI, as amended, be passed". be deemed: (1) [ Ttanslation) The motion was lIIIo(1ed SHRI tAL K. ADVANI (Gandhi Nagar): MR. SPEAKER: I now put amendment Mr. Speaker, Sir, although we thought that No. 21 moved by Shri Ram Hal( to the vote the discussion on this biD would be com- of the House pleted in four hours yet it took more than double the expected time. I regret that the Am.ndment No. 21 was put and tIIIfIIIIived bittemess was created during the discussion. In fact, it should not have been here. MR. SPEAKER: Now I am putting Both the sides should present their views amendment No. 24 moved by Shri. Rasa and accept the decision of the House. But Singh Rawat to the vote of the House. the topic was such that members' sentiments were aItaChed to it. At tim.. the Amendment No. 24 was put and . members even get excited, emotionally. IJsgatlvsd I would not like to go into the details of MR. SPEAKER: I shall now put Clause this Bill. Most of my coDeague have dis- 1, as amended, to the vote oftha House, The cussed its various aspects. My personal question is: opinion Is that there won't be any meaningful gain. But during the discussion it was also -That clause 1, as amended, stand part asked that why have we not done anything ofthe.- about Ayodhya or Rarna Janam bhooml SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 (Special Ptovisions) Bill 480

[She LaI K. Advang [ Translation]

whHe we were In the government which has SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: But the decision now become· a big issue and people are of opening the lock was delivered by the agitated ove, it throughout the country. I court and after that Babri Masjid ActiOn remember that in all the elections held since Committee was formed, and there began 1952, 10 general elections have been held to efforts to change the secular reality - which the LOk Sabha, I participated as a worker of was there since 1949 - that an idol was BJP. But I remember it vividly that except the placed at the birth place of Rama and was last two elections of 1989 and 1991, the worshipped daily. There was demand that issue of Ramjanam Bhoomi and Ayodhya the Babri Masjid should be returned to them. never became an issue for the elections. It was as a result of that that there was so (Intenuptions) You may not agree to what I much resentment, and anger and all these am going to say now, but sometime there agitations in the country. must have been some reference .•. (/ntem.ptbns)... Mr. Speaker, My submission is that if there is one Sir, I won't speak, I do not have any need to norm for every citizen then secularism would speak. But fact is that nobody has ever made come to stay permanent in India. But there any reference to it till 1984 elections. Neither are two norms or standards in the country Hindus nor Muslims nor any political party which we have observed this morning in this had ever said that Ayodhya problem, which very House. My friend from that side has said has assumed bigger dimension, should be a wrong thing and I demanded that those solved. When the Government took a deci- words should be expunged. But I was ob- sion in Shahbano case in 1985, there was a serving that the rest of the whole House reaction throughout the country and later on started making protests, as if anything wrong Sabri Action Committee was formed in 1986, was said and efforts were made to justify the because prior to that ... (/ntenuptbns) remark made from other side. I just said that if my party is getting support nowadays SHRI MOHAMMAD YUNUS SALEEM through out the county that is because of the (Kathihar): First the lock was opened. dual policy adopted by your people. You should not forget that my party his made SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: H the lock was more sacrifices th~n any other party to main- opened it was done by the tain the unity and integrity of the country. Government. .. (/nt9m.ptions)** We should not forget that there were MR. SPEAKER: No, Mr. Advani, please leaders like Gandhi, Pandit Nehru and Sar- do not say like this. dar VaJlabh Bhai Patel. But in spite of their efforts the partition could not be prevented. [English] ( Interruptions)

SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: I am sorry, I [English} withdraw my words. SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR MR. SPEAKER: That will not form part (Mayiladhuturai): Mr.Speaker, Sir, I am on a of the record. Reference to the judge will not point of order. When Shri Salah uddin Owaisi, form part of the record. (Interruptions) M.P., mentioned the Ramjanam bhoomi-

·-expunged as ordered ." the chair. 481 Places of WalSh" BHADRA 19.1913 (SAKA) (Special Provisions) BID 482

Babri Masjid issue. you had ruled him out of Members in the House is most reprehen- order saying that this Bill does not deal with .sible and I think" the House would like to that subject. I request you to repeat exactly condemn it. the same ruling in respect of Shri Advani. (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Let us understand. this is the stage when we are passing the entire [Translation] Bill as such. and I am not upholding the point of order raised by him. SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN (Rosera): Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to say that the [ Translation] leaderofthe Opposition speaks in this House, he does so in a manner similar to that of SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: Mr. Speaker. Sir. Mahatma Gandhi as if his party is quite I do not know how much helpful this Bill unprofessed, disciplined and the remaining would be but I certainly know that we are not people i.e., we peopte are indisciplined and solving those problems which are behind all any person who is in the Chair is unable to the tension and we are passing this Bill to pass a remark. create tension at the places where it is not existing. .Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to say that we should condemn the manner in which I and my party do not want to be asso- BJP functioned in the present session and ciated in passing of this Bill. Therefore, Mr. lowered the dignity of the House. (Interrup- Speaker. Sir, with your permission we walk tions) out of the House. [English]

(At this stage, Shri Lal K. Advani and MR. SPEAKER: I am not going to allow some other hon. Members left the House.) discussion on this point.

(I nterruptions) THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF STEEL (SHRI SANTOSH [English] MOHAN DEV): Not discussion, but ...

SHRI DIGVIJAYASINGH (Rajgarh): Sir, ( Interruptions) this cannot be allowed. It is highly objectionable. Their conduct is highly objectionSble. MR. SPEAKER: You are a Minister. The Chair must take note of this (Interrup- Please understand, you are not to work only tions) one day in the House.

MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seats. SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHURY (Katwa): Not on this. As we are now going to SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: Sir, it is dis- pass the Bill just as a matter of ... gusting. Their behaviour has always been disgusting (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: On the Bill; I am not on the procedure on those things. MF.:SPEAKER: Please take your seats. SHIR SAIFUDIN CHOUDHURY: No, Now, what has been done by some no. I wish Shri Advani had been here. He 483 PIaca of ~ SEPTEMBER 10, 1991 c.ntraI Exa.... custom. 484 (Sp«:IaJ PmvIsIons) BiB Laws (Amend.) _ [Sh. Saifuddln Choudhury] because of the Hlegal occupatfon ••• (Inter· ruptJons) referred to the double standard that has been practised by some of the parties and SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: StIR the Ruling party. I tend to agree with that. He some Members from the BJP are peeping In. referred to the Shah Bano case. At that time, I remember many of us objected to the MR. SPEAKER: If they want to come conduct of the Government. While the Gov- back into the House, they can come back. ernment was trying to amend the law to change the verdict, I remember, at that time, Now the question Is: We wanted the Government of ·that time to honour the court verdict and not to capital of "That the Bm, as amended, be passed·. to fundamentals. Advaniji's party also took the similar stand. Now you find the double The fTiotion was aclcJtXed standard. The party of Advaniji which at that time said, ·We cannot do anything to change the court verdict-forgets what stand it took at that time. Now in the case of Ramjanam 18.42 hr. Bhoomi Babri Masjid issue, they openly say that they would not abide by the court ·ver- CENTRAL EXCISES AND CUSTOMS dict. This is the double standard. The people LAWS (AMENDMENT) Bill of this country must understand this double standard that BJP is adopting. They will be [English] exposed; MR. SPEAKER: Now we take up the I feel bad, they wefe not here while I am other Bill at Serial No.8. The Minister may speaking; I wanted them to be hereto under- move the Bill for consideration. stand what kind of double standard they practice. The people must expose them. THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE SHRI SYEO SHAHABUOOIN: I want to MINISTRY OF FINANCE (SHRI RAMESH- say about the Babri Masjid Action Commit- WAR lHAKUR): On behaH of Shri Manmo- tee ••• han Singh, I beg to move·: "That the BillfurthertoamendtheCentrai MR. SPEAKER: At this stage of passing Excises and Salt Act, 1944 and the of the Bill, why it should be passed and why Customs Act, 1962, be taken into con- it should not be passed, that is the only sideration. • question which is discussed. MR. SPEAKER: Motion moved; Please understand, there are other Bills to be passed. "That the Billturtherto amend the Central Excises and Salt Ad, 1944 and the SHRI SYEO SHAHABUOOIN: The is- Customs Ad, 1962, be taken into con- sue began in 1949 and not in 1986. It began sideration·

Shri Giridhari Lal Bhargava not present

Shri Pram Kumar Dhumal not present ·Movad with the recommendation of the President.