The Skating Lesson Podcast Transcript Interview with

Part I

Jenny Kirk: Hello, and welcome to The Skating Lesson podcast where we interview influential people from the world of figure skating where they can share with us the lessons they learned along the way. I’m Jennifer Kirk, a former US ladies competitor and three-time world team member.

Dave Lease: I’m David Lease, I was not a world team member, ABC Sports never did a fluff piece on me and my sister looking like twins! But I am a figure skating blogger and a current adult skater.

Jenny: If at any point during this podcast you have questions or comments, really anything you want to talk to us about, send us an e-mail at [email protected]. You can also find us on Twitter at twitter.com/ skatinglesson.

Dave: Today, we are thrilled to welcome Tai Babilonia to the podcast. Tai Babilonia is a 1979 world champion with her partner Randy Gardner. Together, they are two-time Olympians, three-time world medalists, and five time United States national champions. Tai is also the subject of a TV movie about her life.

[Tai arrives]

Dave: All right, so Tai, welcome to the show.

Tai: Thank you so much! I’m so excited, and I’m so proud of both of you, so thank you, thank you, thank you.

Jenny: Thank you, Tai! Welcome.

Dave: Thank you! Well, Tai, we’ve – Jen and I have both followed you on Twitter for a long time, and it just seems like there’s nothing that you don’t do. We see you writing poetry, we hear that you’re writing a book, you were skating with Snoopy I think the other day, you and Randy are skating together, you were naked in New York City for PETA, I guess…

Jenny: Yeah, you looked really good in that, Tai, by the way!

Tai: Thank you, thank you! I mean, I have – we’ll talk about that, that’s a whole ‘nother thing, but be sure to bring that up later on.

Jenny: Okay!

Dave: Well, what are you doing now? What is your life like?

Tai: What is my life like? Mainly, it’s my son – he’ll actually be eighteen on the twenty-fifth of this month [January], so, that’s freaking me out just because it’s happening so quickly and there’s no more baby Scout – it’s Scout the young man and that’s a major adjustment for me. I’m trying to go with it and just be a supportive, grown-up mom about it, but you know, he’s slowly moving away, and it’s – you know, it’s difficult for me. So, that’s number one – it’s great, but it’s difficult. Writing, as you said, right now, working on tweaking the proposal, which will hopefully go out to different publishers and then hopefully get a book deal. So it’s a lot of writing, a lot of looking at old journals which is kind of scary. Lot of old pictures, I love writing poetry, so it’s a lot of writing, and I just – you know, even if I write just two lines either at night or during the day, as long as I write something, I’m happy. And, like you said, skating with Snoopy was a bucket dream of mine, bucket list dream of mine, and it happened with the help of a whole group of very influential people. But we got it together, and what was great was I did it – we did it here at home in LA. So that was so special and just one of those moments in my skating career, I mean it’s up there with making the Olympic team and performing with Richard Dwyer, another bucket list moment. So it’s all of this stuff that I’ve, you know, I have fought for, been persistent, but I’ve just – these are the things I’ve wanted to do. And they’re happening – we just gotta go after it.

Dave: How often do you skate?

Tai: Well, something like skating with Snoopy or Richard Dwyer comes up or even skating with Randy, we’ll go in maybe three or four times a week. We’re good for about twenty to twenty-five minutes and then we’re kind of done. So it’s not a lot – we don’t do a lot of the big tricks we used to do, but it’s really just maintaining what we have, keeping our balance, and – a lot of posing.

Jenny: Well, it sounds like you’re definitely keeping yourself busy, Tai, which is wonderful. And I’m wondering, how much time do you have to follow current US skating? We have nationals coming up in just a couple weeks in Omaha, and I was wondering about your thoughts on the current US pair teams – the top three from last year, they won’t be in Omaha, a couple of them broke up, another team is injured. So what are your impressions about the current US teams?

Tai: Well it’s so funny you say that – Jenny, I can’t – the thing is, once I got locked into one of the pair teams, just one, they either ended up quitting or ended up switching partners or ended up something – and then they were gone! So once I lock into one, they’re not there the next year. So I can’t – I lose track. And it’s a real turn- off for me, and I’m not putting anyone down, but there’s just something that – someone’s missing the point here in US pairs skating. And you know, it’s almost like musical chairs. I don’t like it. I try and voice my opinion to the people who are higher up, and no one seems to be listening. But the key to a great pair team is – you gotta stay together for at least five years. And that just doesn’t – nobody seems to get that. So that’s why you have what you have right now. And it’s too bad because the talent is there, they just don’t understand you gotta stay together. You have to stay together through thick and thin. And in my case, or in the case of Tai and Randy, when we did start to grow, 16-17, even 15, we stuck it out. We stayed together. You know, Randy and I are very similar in height, but Mr. Nicks – the brilliance of Mr. Nicks – was he figured out what our strengths and weaknesses were. And it worked, and we were fine. But you just – you don’t go look for a smaller partner, and you know, if the girl doesn’t get the jumps or the guy doesn’t get the jumps, you just kind of squeak it out. At least give it a chance, and that’s the beef I have with our pairs teams. I’m frustrated. I’m frustrated, and I hope don’t know if I am the only one who’s frustrated, but it’s kind of sad.

Dave: Where do you think it comes from? Were the splits this prevalent when you competed? Where do you think it’s coming from now?

Tai: Wait, what do you mean, where is what coming from?

Dave: Like, the splits stemming from. You know, have the US pairs always split up like this? You know, was it musical chairs?

Tai: No. Not back in the seventies and even the early eighties with the Carruthers, and Todd and Jenny. Something happened after that, and I don’t know if it’s because of the technical difficulty that some of the skaters can’t get it. Or something – the girls grow, and they’re not able to do the different lifts and the different twists. I’m not sure, but it’s – why can’t they get it? Why can’t they look back in the past at what we had, and it worked! I mean, we were winning, the Carruthers were winning! Kenny and JoJo were winning! The Militanos were winning! This is – these are the past champion figure skaters, and I wish, wish, wish they would reach out – the USFS would reach out to us past pairs skaters and let us talk to these young ones. They need to hear it from the champions. But no one listens.

Part II Jenny: You know, you talk about this – what was the secret to your longevity with Randy because you were the longest ever pairs team still skating together even a handful of years ago. What was the secret to that longevity? What would you tell skaters if United States allowed you or wanted you to be in that role of talking to these young teams?

Tai: Basically, it’s – you gotta have the same goals. That was key in our partnership, having the same goals. Knowing that a 12 or 13 or 14-year-old girl young team is going to grow. Do you know, Jenny, it happens. We’re women. We get boobies…

Jenny: Yeah, we have those curves!

Tai: We get curves, it all changes, and you know for a year, maybe even over a year, things are going to be off. That’s Mother Nature. But if you can get through it, that just shows that you are determined to be a great skater, be a great pairs skater or a solo skater. It’s going to happen. And I think that scares a lot of the teams. They don’t want to take the time to let the girl’s body, you know, grow normally. And they get frustrated. So, what I would tell them is – know you’re going to have one or two years where you’re going to be off, but stick with it! I don’t know. I think – I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m so frustrated with it. You know, I’ve tried, I’ve reached out and hear nothing, absolutely nothing. And that’s just, you know, that’s sad, because they’re neglecting some of the best US pairs skated that we’ve had, and they don’t – you know, nothing. Too bad.

Dave: What role do you think the coaches have? Do you think it’s the lack of the coaches having some of that international experience and big perspective to get these pairs, or you know, coaches looking for success too quickly and always trying to get the next best thing?

Tai: Right, I think that you hit it right there. We call it the quick fix. I can’t relate to the quick fix. I don’t know – I can’t comprehend the quick fix. We grew at a natural progression, you know – junior champions, senior champions, you know. We didn’t always win, in the end we started winning, but that’s because we stayed together. And we looked like a pair team. You know – two as one, forever two as one. I look at pair teams now, and it’s – yes, they have those fabulous tricks, but it’s almost like watching two solo skaters and they’ll throw a trick and there’s no togetherness. There’s nothing – I don’t see it. I don’t it, I miss it. So therefore, I’ll turn it off. I’ll turn it off. It’s not interesting to me.

Jenny: I think that’s part of the problem with the new system, would you say, Dave?

Dave: Oh, absolutely.

Tai: Yes, yes. It’s – the tricks are so difficult, and you see these skaters, not just pairs skaters but solo skaters, too, getting hurt because of all of these difficult tricks. And I miss – I miss the skating. I miss the free skating. I miss and and . And you know, you talk to anyone, non-skaters, and they don’t know what’s going on in skating now. They don’t know the system, they don’t know the points. If I don’t even know how it’s working, how can a non-skater know. And therefore, you lose your audience, you lose selling seats in an arena. It all, you know, it all factors into it. And no one seems to understand that, that that’s the problem.

Dave: It’s like the magic has been taken out of it.

Tai: Absolutely, the magic’s been taken out. You know, there’s a handful. There’s Jeremy Abbot who’s magnificent. He seems to – he gets it. He gets it. He’s got the difficult tricks but Jeremy is a beautiful skater. He reminds me of . Patrick Chan, Adam Rippon whom I recently spent some time with. There’s a handful that can do it. But still, I feel so bad because it’s too much to me. They seem so nervous even before they get out there. You can see the mind just thinking – trick trick trick trick trick. If I do this, I gotta take out this, if I miss that – you lose it. You lose the beauty of it.

Dave: And getting back to some of the pair dynamic – how important do you think it is to recognize the strength of each partner because a couple years ago, in 2011, Caitlin Yankowskas and John Coughlin – you know, they finished sixth at the world championships. And nothing’s ever really on the record in skating. You know, the story went something like – her coach didn’t feel like she could land the difficult throws allegedly. And she had tryouts behind her back with someone who could. So how important is it that the coach, you know, really maps out to each partner – you might not be the artistic skater but your partner is bringing that, so you need them. You know, is – do people…

Tai: Yes, right. Once again, it’s – I don’t know, I don’t get it because I did watch those two. And they were beautiful. She was beautiful, and it is – I was as shocked as anyone else. It’s like – where was the – what was the thinking in letting her go? They were just starting to get their momentum and their “forever two is one” kind of look. And boom, they’re gone, he’s onto the next. You know what, I don’t know. I don’t have an answer. I’m not in the coach’s brain – Mr. Nicks would never do that. Ron Ludington, you know, I don’t think would do that. You just have to squeak it out and at least give it a try. Give it your best shot, and I don’t see that now.

Jenny: Well, talking about strengths and weaknesses of skaters, what Dave brought up, what do you think, when you look at your career and you and Randy, you were so known as skating forever two as one – almost one entity on the ice. What did you bring to the pair, and what did Randy bring, and how did you guys balance each other out?

Tai: We were very much alike. As Mr. Nicks said, I was the rose and Randy is the stem. And he is the – you know, the boy presents the girl. I think with Randy and I – what we brought to the table in pairs skating was that balletic quality, was the style. You know, we were limited in our tricks because of the height difference. So Mr. Nicks was so brilliant in focusing on, and back then we could do that – the Ina Bauers, the spirals held for almost around the whole rink, and just that mirror image which, you know, the Russians were different. The Russians and the East Germans back then had the tricks – they still have the tricks. So it set us apart. And people – fans love that. It was very much in the vein of Ken Shelley and JoJo Starbuck who are skating idols. And that’s what we brought to the table was the balletic quality to our skating, and it set us apart.

Part III

Dave: Did your personalities balance each other out?

Tai: Well, it’s – back then, back as teenagers, Randy was more the outgoing one and I was more, I guess, the shy one. It’s almost like we’ve reversed roles now. You can’t shut me up. He looks at me like I’m crazy, but it’s – I wasn’t told that he was to take the lead, it was just a natural thing. Randy was the leader. There should be a leader in a team, and it’s usually the man. So, it’s – our personalities, it just worked. I try not to analyze it because it has been forty-five years and we’re still together which is something so special to me. It’s just that whatever it is, we had it. And it worked, and I cherish it. I cherish our skating career, I cherish our friendship, you know, all of it. It’s been wonderful.

Jenny: It sounds like you’re almost talking about a marriage. You know, the secret to a good marriage, you hear people talking about, it is a secret. It’s something that’s almost beyond them that’s holding that pair together. But one of the things Dave and I also noticed when we were watching all of your old tapes on YouTube recently for this interview was that, Tai, you were wonderful under pressure. You were just really amazingly clutch as an athlete. So I’m wondering where that came from. Can you attribute that to your training with Mr. Nicks? Was it just a bunch of run-throughs, or is it something that you just have as a person where you’re really great under pressure.

Tai: I think it’s a combination of everything, but you hit it when you said a bunch of “run-throughs.” We did a bunch of run-throughs. We did – I don’t know if you did this when you were training, but we did double run- throughs. And back then, our routines were five minutes long. So it was – it had to do with the great training beforehand, doing our run-throughs, and just being consistent. Mr. Nicks is all about, and still is about, consistency as we see in Ashley. The improvement – you know, she was never a consistent skater, and now, she’s like a different person. That’s Mr. Nicks. And under pressure, it’s – you know, knowing, going into a competition, that you’ve had the great training beforehand, that all plays a part of it. You have that confidence going in, that we’ve done this number, but you know, a gazillion time, let’s do it one more time. So it’s – that’s where I have to applaud Mr. Nicks. And that’s one of his strengths, just the consistency with the training.

Dave: I guess – what was Sasha’s problem, then? You know, because Mr. Nicks was so, you know, drilling the consistency, and that’s the one thing she seemed to lack. And sometimes he said that, you know – Mr. Nicks tried to act like she was running the show where everyone else who was ever coached by him talks about, you know, that discipline. So do you have any insight into that relationship?

Tai: You know, I don’t know Sasha that well. I only know from what Mr. Nicks has said in interviews, and it was shocking. It’s like – we could never get away with that! She kind of – she broke down a barrier with him. And I think also as Mr. Nicks got older, it all changed, which is normal. I think she’s a strong personality, Sasha is, so – I don’t know. I can’t relate because we weren’t allowed to do that. And there is – a lot of it is respect for your coach which I see lacking now in some young skaters. You know, I look at them, it’s like – we would never, ever get away with that. We would be sent home if we ever talked back, if we ever kicked the ice, if we ever stopped in the middle of the program we were done for the day. You might as well take your bag and head home. So it’s – the mentality is different now with the young skaters. Lazy, some of them, yes. Laziness I see. I don’t know – it’s all different. I don’t see the intenseness that we had in the seventies and the eighties. And I see that in other sports, and I see it in everyday life with teenagers in general. It’s just different.

Dave: How important was Mr. Nicks’s experience and really trusting his experience when you were kind of competing against the Russians successfully, you know, for the first time?

Tai: Well – what was the question again? I’m sorry.

Dave: Well, I guess – how important was Mr. Nicks’s experience and, like, trusting in his experience? Because you, you know, broke so many barriers – doing the first triple sal, you know, throw triple sal – how, you know, how much did you have to trust in his experience, in his planning?

Tai: So much trust in Mr. Nicks. And just – we knew that we were with the best pair coach in the US. We knew that he had a great team before us – Ken Shelley and JoJo Starbuck. We learned by watching them. We came in right into the picture as they were leaving in 1972 for the Olympics in Sapporo, so we got to watch them train. And like I said before, it’s – to me, it’s all about respect. Respect for your coach, respect for, of course, for your parents, and respect for your sport. It’s a great sport – if you treat it nicely, it will treat you nicely. And we learned that from an early age.

Dave: I guess – how did you feel that you and Randy stacked up against Irina Rodnina and Alexander Ziatsev, you know, in 1980? You guys were definitely the more artistic pair with the beautiful presentation, and you also had, you know, the throws, which they didn’t have. I don’t know if they had a throw – a split triple-twist. But I guess – how did you see, you know, your two pairs matching up?

Tai: Two different types of teams. They were the athletic team. And Irina Rodnina, she – when you watch them skate, I don’t even remember her partner. You watched Irina. I mean, she was a phenomenal athlete. And you know, she just kept winning. She just kept winning, winning, winning, winning. So she was almost an elite by herself. And then there were Tai and Randy, the balletic team who, you know, tried to combine the athleticism, what we had, what we were capable of doing, with the artistic side. So you know, two different – I would hate to be a judge. I really would – I’m sure it was tough. Which – who do you want to go with? It’s – and that was the big question mark with what happened in Lake Placid in with our story – it didn’t happen because of Randy’s injury. So – and that’s our legacy. That it didn’t – what could have been?

Part IV

Jenny: Tai, you bring up Lake Placid, and unfortunately – or fortunately – that is what you and Randy are best known for. So I was wondering if you could take us back to that time in your career. What did you know about Randy’s injury? We watched you at nationals a month earlier – it seemed like everything was fine. Now we know that he got injured leading up to the Games. So that morning of the short program, usually there’s a practice session. Did you guys practice? I know Randy, he got a shot to alleviate and quell the pain before you went to the arena for the event. So did you know what was going on – were you in the loop? And how did that day play out?

Tai: It’s – ooh, it’s a tough one. It’s all kind of blurry. And once again – it’s our story. So, and I will write about this because with – when Randy and I wrote our first book, Forever Two as One, he said some things in that book which I had no idea he was feeling or what was going on and then what Mr. Nicks was saying. So it was very interesting. I learned a lot by reading our book. But, like you said, Nationals was fine. We went home and started training for the Olympics, and that’s where Randy, in Santa Monica – the initial injury happened. And, you know, it was fine – it’s just, you know, he was hurt and it’s fine, I’ll skate through it, he’ll skate through it, and no big deal. And then once we got to Lake Placid, I, you know, I guess he was in pain. I’m not quite sure how bad it was, Jenny, but you know, according to Mr. Nicks, he wanted to keep everything really quiet because there was so much press going into those Games for us. And he didn’t want to upset me or make me nervous because, you know, I was already tense enough. So he chose to keep it quiet, and what you saw on the telecast on ABC – really, what you saw was the first time for me. I knew Randy was injured, I knew he’d got the shot. I didn’t know exactly what the shot was, didn’t know what they were injecting into his leg which ended up deadening the pain where it was hurt, the abductor muscle, or groin muscle. But I guess the doctor gave him too much Xylocaine, so it ended up deadening his whole leg, and when you watch the footage, you see that leg buckle underneath him. So he could – he felt nothing. Randy is a skater who never falls. This was a simple double flip that he’s done since he was a child. Never missed. If anyone were to miss anything, it was usually me who missed something. So I’m sort of – you know, we’re doing the double flips, and he’s falling, and it’s like – what’s wrong? I thought maybe he’s nervous. Maybe he’s nervous – not knowing he couldn’t feel his leg. So it was a lot of confusion. A lot of confusion.

Dave: How had you been skating before? Were the program run-throughs going well in Lake Placid, before Lake Placid? How were you personally feeling going into the Olympics?

Tai: I was fine. You know, we were doing just sections of the number. We had the first section, the middle slow section, in the end kind of another fast section. So we would just do it in parts. And that’s how we would do it – we would run the programs before we got there. So everything was normal to me.

Dave: Were you confident?

Tai: Absolutely – yes, we were confident. Nervous, absolutely. Press – up the wazzu. Press is a little tricky – was a little tricky for me because, and I talk about this in the Tai and Randy book, they almost, and it was a lot, they have you winning before you even get there. And I think that’s a mistake. It’s kind of hard to say no to a lot of the big press. But it’s – I think they overstep their boundaries, and they don’t understand as an athlete, you really just want to go there and skate your best. And whatever happens is going to happen. But you want to just go and show your best number.

Dave: Obvi—

Tai: No, go ahead.

Dave: Obviously, there was a lot of buildup, you know, and because it was the Americans versus the Russians. We were really wondering how you felt you stacked up in the competition. Did you feel that you had a good chance to win – politically, was it possible?

Tai: We did because we were at home. We were in the US, so that was a plus for us. And we had the – we had those fans behind us. And we were in great shape – as I thought, now, not knowing about the injury. So I think that was – being in Lake Placid was a plus for us, and if we would have skated well – this is a big “if,” who knows – you know, I can’t answer it. I don’t know if we would have won. Honestly, I don’t know if we would have skated our hearts out. I don’t know if, with the judging system the way it was then, it was very political, and Irina Rodnina had that – you know, she’d won two Olympics before that, that’s very impressive, were we going to break her record? You guys, I don’t know. And that’s – that’s the big question mark.

Dave: Did you think about it?

Tai: No, no. I didn’t. I really didn’t. I sort of – when it happened, it’s – everything was really blurry and confusion, and now, looking back now, I don’t even think I asked Randy how it felt, if it hurt, if he was in pain. You know, all of those things now I would ask. And I’m sure he would do the same with me.

Jenny: So, Tai, have you and Randy had an opportunity to sit down? You said a lot was revealed to you when you read his excerpt from the book, the part he had contributed. So have you sat down and kind of hashed this out? Because I could imagine that being so young, having so much pressure on you, feeling that confusion of that night, I just – my heart goes out to you. And I would think that that may affect other parts of your life moving forward. So do you feel that you and Randy have had the opportunity to really talk about what happened?

Tai: Good question. And no we haven’t – one-on-one – you know, we did a ton of interviews after. Ton of talk shows, print interviews, everything, and there was always that third person, that interviewer, interviewing us.

Jenny: And I don’t mean to interrupt, but it’s like you have to be on, that feeling that you have to be authentic.

Tai: Yeah, we had our programmed answers. We knew exactly what to say. We knew exactly what questions we were going to be asked, and we were done. But to sit one-on-one with Randy – to this day we haven’t. Just in a room by ourselves, we haven’t. Like I said in the book, in the first book, he revealed so many things that I had no idea was happening and how he was feeling. And – but back then, I didn’t have the tools to say – are you okay? I just didn’t. So, you know, it may happen, it may not happen. I’m sort of waiting for him to come to me – when he’s ready, he will. I think he will.

Dave: Does it give you maybe pause or maybe trust issues at other big moments in your life? You know, you’re getting married or are you waiting for the shoe to drop? Is it something where you see it affect you in other ways?

Tai: What does that mean, other ways?

Dave: You know, like the Olympics is your big moment and something goes wrong like – I guess, people are very, you know when you’re an athlete, they’re very intense, so do you ever, you know, get worried before big events or anything now? Or is it something that was just once and…

Jenny: I guess it’s that lack of control, I would think, Dave, that you’re getting at. That feeling of – just when I look back at some of my skating experiences, it’s that feeling that there’s so much just out of your control, and when you feel like this is the moment of your life and you’re best known for something not really going the way you want. I guess are you trying to get at – how has it affected Tai in other ways?

Dave: Yeah, yes.

Part V

Tai: Well, there – that’s the key word, control. And Lake Placid – it was out of my control. It was out of Randy’s control. Yeah – that’s a very good question, very good subject to bring up because I am a bit of a control freak, if you want to say that. And it worked in the ice rink and in the ice shows and in the blah blah blah. In real life, it kind of backfired with me. You can’t control everything. Sometimes you just have to let it happen. And that’s something I learned through therapy, years and years of therapy, to just sort of let it organically happen. Don’t try and control everything. I have to catch myself with my son – let him experience, let him make mistakes. It’s okay to make mistakes, you don’t need to be perfect. And I know, Jenny, you know something about what this is leading to.

Jenny: Yeah.

Tai: Exactly what this is leading to. I need some water.

Jenny: Take your time.

Tai: Being perfect.

Jenny: Well, Tai, as you kind of catch your breath and we all take a break, I think you know, and many people in skating will know that I struggled for many years with perfection, with an eating disorder while I was training, and I wrote about it on my website. And as I was watching the videos of you and Randy, I was just struck by the aesthetic that you had on the ice. So beautiful, and something that so many skaters have tried to emulate. And I was wondering – because after I wrote that, I got such a response from skaters today and my former competitors, saying that they struggled with problems with body image, eating disorders, trying to achieve that aesthetic on the ice. So was it something that you saw in the seventies and eighties was a problem in skating like we see in today?

Tai: It was there. You know, I didn’t notice it, I was young. I remember exactly – I talked to Mr. Nicks about this much later. You know, recently, if he would ever change anything, what would he change in his coaching, the way he coached and the way he brought us, his students, up. How he treated us. I was twelve years old when I first got weighed in. Maybe weighed seventy pounds. You know, I was a little – as you saw in the footage, I was a child. But that’s – being a pair skater, that’s what you do. So I think – Mr. Nicks said that if he were to change anything, he would change his weighing in of his girl skaters. He now looks back on that as a mistake, and saw the – you know, he saw the repercussions of it later with some of the – you know, when we got older and some of us dealt with it in, you know, not so positive ways. But when he did weight me in at twelve years old, thirteen years old, that’s when the seed was planted. That’s when the diets started. That’s when I started, you know, learning about body image, and learning that being a pairs skater, I’ve gotta stay small. And I’ve gotta control my weight. And still, to this day, it’s a control thing.

Jenny: I agree.

Tai: I would love to, and I’m dealing with it now, it’s still early on and it’s still baby steps, I’m just getting, you know, now getting through alcohol recovery which I’m so proud of. And this sort of, this eating problem, this eating disorder, kind of slipped under the radar for me at fifty-three years old. And so I’m learning about it – it’s scary. It’s – what am I trying to say, what am I trying to say, what am I trying to say – oh. Right now I would love to just learn to embrace a meal. Embrace a dinner and not the next day think – oh, my God, I have this, what am I going to do, what – will I fit into these jeans, will I fit into this costume, it’s all that at fifty-three, just never think it’s gonna happen. And it’s happened to me – it’s happening.

Jenny: And this was something that just started to seep in, because I know from my experience, I can just relate so much. I’m getting teary – my heart goes out to you because I know how hard it is when – no one starts out thinking, “I want to have trouble with food” or “I want to look a certain way.” It’s so insidious, and it starts to bleed into your life, every facet of your life. And like you talk about the seed being planted, you can think of these – they’re almost like photographs, like flashes of multiple moments of stepping on the scale, like you talked about with Mr. Nicks. Someone making a comment, this or that, but if you could just go back to that one moment, but it isn’t a moment. It just bleeds in, and then it takes over your whole life. So I was wondering – you talk about Mr. Nicks not weighing his skaters now – what role do you think for pair skaters? Is it something, because we see this so much, is it the comments coming from the coach? Is it just this unspoken thing in the skating world where you have to be a certain weight? Because as you say, it will affect you no matter what age you are for the rest of your life. Tai: Yes. I think it’s society. I think it’s, you know, we pick up a magazine. We’ll pick up Vogue or you know, In-Style Magazine. And Jenny, we see the girls. We know what they look like – they’re this big [with pinky finger up].

Jenny: Unhealthy, and photoshopped, too.

Tai: Exactly, and wearing the most fabulous clothes, and we go into a store and I don’t know about you, but I’ve got jeans that say size zero. Now I don’t know when that size zero started happening because size zero means nothing. So, I wore a size nothing? It’s all these mind games. And it’s not just the skating word, but you know, we skaters, dancers, gymnasts – are exposed to this. We want to fit into the cool club of girls. We want to look hot like the girls in the magazines. It’s just the way it is – it’s not just us.

Jenny: And we’re told that that’s attractive. Looking like a little child is attractive, and…

Tai: Yeah. I’ve jumped on the scale now, and – well, I don’t jump on the scale – and I’ll see a number. It’s low, it’s low for me. It’s because that’s where I am right now. And I’ve heard – people are talking about it because they’ve seen photographs on Facebook, and it’s a different body. I will say this – when I stopped drinking, I lost five pounds like that [snaps fingers]. So that was the start of it, and my body is just a different – it’s a different shape. I’ll be on the scale, I’ll see a certain number, I won’t say what the number is, I’ll just tell you it’s low, and something clicks really crazy, and I’ll go back to where I was that way as a teenager, and I’ll feel good about it. Something – there’s something cool about that, but that’s the scary part about the disease. And it’s not healthy, but that’s what I’m working on. It’s just learning to embrace food. And you know, don’t always have a Caesar salad – have a pasta, have a – and you know, enjoy it. You know, I watch Food Network, and it looks so good, but I – something just says “don’t go there,” and there’s no reason to not go there. It’s a very – it’s fascinating in a way. Scary, it’s powerful, and – but just know I’m working on it just as, you know, many skaters and gymnasts and dancers are – it’s all, it’s part of our lives. And, you know, I hope young girls are watching this and listening and just know that they’re not alone and that I give you credit for opening up, Jenny, with your blog. I mean, I locked right into that. I even typed something – not a lot, I went “oh, I get it. I get it,” not knowing that we’d be talking about it right now.

Part VI

Jenny: What do you think, Tai, is a way for us to start to resolve this? You talked about going to therapy – I also am in therapy, I’ve been in for many years, and I’ve found it to be incredibly helpful. But I just – I worry because I see so many skaters, even now top level skaters will e-mail me and say, “I’m still struggling with this, but I want to compete in this event coming up and I don’t know what to do. I don’t know what’s right.” How can we start to resolve this, do you think, in the skating world and then on a bigger level? You talk about society as well.

Tai: Right. I think for the skating world, once again, it’s – you know, I’m not slamming the USFS, I call them the USFSA, USFS…

Jenny: Yeah, it’s been the USFSA for years, let’s just go with that!

Tai: Yeah. They know what’s happening. They’re going to see this. They see this, I know they do. I’m not stupid, and they’re not stupid. I know they see what I write. I know they see what you write. Why don’t they reach out to us, hire us to talk to the girls and boys? You know, use our expertise, use our mistakes, use our flaws to help the next batch of kids. We’re here, we’re here at their disposal. But they just – I don’t know what it is, what’s stopping them, but, you know – I don’t know. I don’t know.

Dave: How much of a problem do you think is the culture of skating? I mean, we’ve seen a lot of athletes almost joke about not eating or their weight in the US. I know Johnny Weir used to talk about not eating until five o’clock at night almost – kind of joking, kind of being proud about it. I know when Sasha Cohen competed at nationals when she came back in 2010, she said something to Mr. Nicks that was really, I think, shocking to a lot of people. And they weren’t sure if she was kidding or what. But she made a comment where she grabbed her stomach after the short and said she needed to lose two pounds. And that was on TV in the Kiss-n-Cry. So…

Tai: Oh, I missed that. I missed that.

Dave: Yeah, and you know, not everyone gets weighed for their jobs every day. So how much of a problem do you think just the culture of skating kind of desensitizes you to it and really lets it, you know, creep up?

Tai: Well – what’s the question again? Sorry.

Dave: Do you think the whole culture of skating allows, you know, an eating disorder to creep up more prevalently because it becomes almost normal. Everyone’s watching your weight, you know. Everyone is having a salad with no dressing.

Tai: Well everyone is watching their weight – yeah. And it’s still – it’s this secret. But it’s no secret. It’s no secret. The door hinge – Jenny, she blew the door open. You did it, sweetie. You blew it open, the delicate doors. I blew it open with, you know, my recovery from alcohol, and it’s – sometimes it takes that. And we’re going to have to stay at it, you know. We don’t want this to be a huge problem. And we want to have healthy skaters and gymnasts and dancers. It’s enough. It’s enough – it’s not working. So use us, use our – I would love to talk to a group of skaters. I’m very open with almost everything. This – the eating, it’s new to me. So I can’t go deep with it because I’m trying to make sense of it, but I can certainly talk about my experiences. I just now thought of something – this was as a professional in where I was absolutely overweight. And I called the Ice Capades my college years, and – ten pounds, like there was no tomorrow. And it showed, and the skating was horrible. But I read one review where it – they didn’t make fun of my weight, they just said that she’s out of shape, she’s not at her Olympic, you know, competitive way. And that one interview is right here. That one interview – and I read something about Karen Carpenter. Almost similar review from someone making – talking about her weight, because she was overweight also. And that one interview, from that one person who didn’t know her was always in the back of her head. She’s not here. Karen Carpenter’s gone. So – it’s the dialogue, Jenny, you know that. It’s us talking. It’s what you’re doing now is, I think, going to help. It can only help.

Jenny: My gut – just what you said – it really stuck with me. My gut says that it needs to be women like us, Tai, men, anyone from the skating world or out of the skating world just talking about it. And it also seems like it needs to be maybe the current skaters speaking up and embracing a healthy body. Really having that – because it seems like the USFSA – they – after I wrote the post a couple years ago, I got one e-mail, did a kind of recorded speech thing, but I haven’t heard from them, either. I don’t think it’s going to be the upper management or whatnot in US Figure Skating making the changes. It’s going to be at a ground level. It’s really going to be the athletes, it’s going to be us teaming together. And I think people taking that veil off, saying what you are saying right now which is so brave – I’m still in it! I’m still struggling with this! I don’t know what is going on. I just know it’s unhealthy, and if I could stop somebody from feeling the way I am right now, I want to do it – is that what your basically saying.

Tai: Absolutely. Absolutely. I’m very much in it, I’m very aware of it. You know, I hope it gets better, I hope I can kick it and like I said, embrace a meal – just embrace a meal! Enjoy – it’s food, it’s wonderful! You know, I don’t have to fit into little costumes right now. And if I do have to fit into a costume, it’s – as my doctor said, get a bigger costume! Not a big deal, get a bigger costume! So it’s – like you said, we have to start at the bottom and work our way up. I hope it helps – I hope this helps someone. It’s – secret’s out. Secret’s out. I’m still learning – it’s baby steps.

Dave: How much pressure is on the pair girl, you know, to be tiny? You know, that if maybe you lose five pounds, you know, your lifts will be better, it’ll get you through the season. I mean, the pair girls are getting skinnier, you know, and I don’t think it’s a secret to anyone who watches skating that, you know, they’re becoming alarmingly thin. You know, you look at the different countries, and people will say – oh, that’s just natural. But it doesn’t look natural to anyone at home. You and Randy were very close in height, you know, so was there even more pressure on you to then be lighter to kind of make up for the fact that, you know, he’s not that much taller than you. So naturally it’s not going to be that, you know, the difference that Irina Rodnina had with her partner. You know, was there even more pressure on you to be tiny?

Tai: There was pressure, there was – people freaked out. What happened – I would say, 15-16 when my body started changing, Randy stopped growing, I was blooming as a young woman. The question was, were we going to continue? Because I did grow. Should he look for a new partner that was five feet tall and 95 pounds? Should I look for a partner who’s six foot two or six feet who could toss me into space? Yeah, people freaked out when I grew. And I’ll write about this in the next book in detail – all hell broke loose when I grew. And this is where the brilliance of Mr. Nicks came in. He figured out – we can’t do this, but you can do this. It’s going to set you apart from the Russians and the East Germans. And for us, it worked. I don’t know because of how technically difficult the tricks are now, I don’t know if that would work now. I really don’t. So, I – you know what, I can’t answer your question. It’s – the skating is so – it’s a different type of skating now. You know, we weren’t doing those kind of tricks. So we were able to, you know, get away with it and rely on our artistry, and that kept us, you know, up at the top.

Part VII

Jenny: Well, you talk about talking to younger skaters who are maybe struggling with body image and that sort of thing. But you’ve also spoken out about your struggle with addiction, with alcoholism. And that’s something that so many people, myself included, have struggled with as well. When you look back on that period of your life, what do you wish you had had at that time? If you could go back, what advice would you have given a younger Tai, and what advice would you give someone who’s struggling with alcoholism?

Tai: Well, mine happened innocently, and it happened later in my professional skating career. It wasn’t in amateur, it happened while I was on the road touring nine months out of the year with Ice Capades. Fresh out of being an amateur, really green, really naïve, no parents to do, you know, everything else. As an amateur, all we had to do is skate. And everything else was kind of taken care of by our coaches or our parents. So all of a sudden I’m out on the road, and just really unsure of myself. And it started simply with a glass of wine because I wasn’t sleeping at night, simply because I was stressed and scared and homesick and just not trusting, not knowing who to trust. And I liked it – I liked how one little glass of wine made me feel, it enabled me to be more open with people. I have an addictive personality, so the one glass turns into two glasses turned into a bottle. A bottle of wine turned into hard liquor. It just – it escalated in a matter of – from ’81 until ’88 when I crashed, when I hit bottom in ’88. So, it’s – I don’t know. I think communication would have helped. If I would have had the tools to say, “you know what, I’m scared,” talked to even, talked to, you know, my best friend, Randy. “I’m scared, I’m nervous, how do I deal with this?” Because he was dealing with it fine. I wasn’t quite ready. I didn’t know what it was to be a professional, a good professional skater. So to mask, you know, all the problems, I turned to alcohol. So communication, I think, would have helped. Knowing it would be okay to talk to someone. So yeah. And that was – it was eight years of pretty much nonstop drinking. And I was a functional alcoholic. I was able to drink and compete – not compete – and perform up until, you know, when I couldn’t, and that was 1988 when it all came crumbling down, and there’s another thing. I came out with the problem with the cover of People Magazine, and they did a movie – made-for-TV movie about the problems I had. And the skating world didn’t take too well to that because it showed a dark side. It showed a negative side to our world. And I don’t think they were ready for that. And I – the haters came out, and I thought – I started reading, they didn’t have – I guess they had blogs then – but I started reading reviews, and you know, little things would come from skaters. I would hear, you know, little comments – you know, is she faking it, is she doing this for the press, blah blah blah, which I wasn’t. I came out with the problem because I wanted to clean my slate. It was part of my recovery just to stop lying. When you’re an alcoholic, you become this amazing liar. This was my way of, you know, stop the madness. Stop it all, here is what happened. And, like you, Jenny, how you blew the doors open with the eating, I did with that with my alcohol problem. I think they get it now. I think people do believe me, that it was a problem. But I’m not great at keeping things inside. I feel better when I’m sharing it with fans and friends. As you see on Facebook, I’m very open. But I like that – that’s part of my process. That’s how I stay sober is to hear from other people and to hear that, you know, there are other people with problems.

Jenny: Yeah, you’re not alone. You’re never alone. Tai: With the eating disorder, though, this is, I think, how it has to happen. Just be honest. It’s about the honesty. There’s no lying – my lying days are over. And I see the good stuff starting to happen when you’re honest with yourself and the people around you, it’s amazing what the universe – I don’t know who’s up there, but it’s happening. The good stuff is coming to me. I don’t have to chase it so much anymore. It’s just – it’s naturally because there’s something with honesty and the universe that works.

Jenny: I agree. So a lot of the problems that you talk about are things that I think are so prevalent for so many skaters. What do you think the role of mental health should play in the sport? Nancy Kerrigan came out in 1994, I think she’s one of the first athletes that talked about using a sports psychologist to kind of get her head right. Because I as athletes, we’re told to suck it up. Back in your day, you guys were interviewed in the Kiss-n-Cry right as you got off the ice. You didn’t really have time to process what had just happened. You had to have that skater face on, that public personality. So I would imagine, just from my own experience, stuffing all of that and not feeling like you could be honest at that moment would be difficult. So do you think there needs to be more of a mental health component for athletes in order to kind of sift through all this stuff that we don’t really have the opportunity to face?

Tai: It’s a great question. I think what Nancy did, it worked for her. I would take it a step further and, you know, not just for the skaters. Bring the parents in. Bring the coaches into those meetings. I think it’s a group – it’s a group effort. We’re all – they’re all involved. Parents are certainly involved, they’re paying for everything! Coaches – you’re spending more time with the coaches – I think it’s more than one-on-one-skater-psychologist or psychiatrist, whatever you, whichever. I see a group therapy session. Because everyone’s involved. Everyone’s affected. I’m all for therapy. I started therapy back in 1988 when I had my breakdown, my crash. I get it now – I fought it in the beginning, I did not understand why this person whom I didn’t know was asking me all these questions and we had to dig back into when I was a kid and blah blah blah, and it scared me. Now I – it’s fascinating to me. I love it. I love piecing together things that I did as a child to, you know, even with the eating. It affects me now. But I’m learning that, you know, the seed was planted when I was weighed at twelve years old. I have to, you know, I’ve gotta get over that. But I think it’s a combination of coach, skater, parents. The whole team. All the – I think all of them in therapy because they’re all involved.

Dave: One thing that we were really struck by is that you, in an interview with the man and the woman skate cast, made a comment on how jokes that it’s always the girl’s fault. And, you know, on a deeper level, do you think there is a problem where you know, say that, you know, a throw is mistimed, it’s the girl who falls. So do you think there is a problem where often the girl does get more of the blame?

Tai: Blame? Did I really say that? Wow. Well – yeah, it – with me, it usually was me. I mean, once the boy throws the girl, it’s even – with Mr. Nicks, if you’re like this in the air [arm held straight across], you gotta fight for your landings. So it’s – I would say in the throws, yes, the girl is to blame if she does fall. It’s kind of the girl’s thing if the girls jump, I would say. Some of the twists and some of the other tricks – you know what, I’m not sure. It’s a good question. I don’t want the girls to get a bad rap, though – you are a team. It’s a team effort, so let’s – you know – I think they both should take the blame.

Part VIII

Dave: It just seems like there is more pressure on the girl. The girl has to be thin, the girl has to land the throws, the girl has to be in the air – you know, like… it takes a strong, lioness.

Tai: Right. It takes a strong girl, and maybe that’s why we see some of these girls quitting. Running away from it. We just saw it with a pair team. A very good pair team. I don’t know the details on what happened, but it’s – yeah. It’s pressure, but you gotta know that going into being a pair skaters. That’s just part of – that’s part of it. That’s part of being a team. And you kinda can’t get around that. You gotta be tough. You gotta be tough.

Dave: You talked about a pair team just splitting, and right before that, we know that you mentored Keauna McLaughlin and . And do you think, you know – they had an agent before they ever made an Olympic team. And do you think, you know, there’s a problem with agents in the sport where, you know, they were up for a Coca-Cola endorsement before they had made the Olympic team. And it had really seemed like things were starting to fall apart and the endorsements were starting, that they were supposed to make the Olympics, they were supposed to be our big hope to you know, right pairs skating. And it seemed like…

Tai: It backfired.

Dave: Yeah. It seemed like crumbling.

Tai: Yeah. Well, we talked about that earlier where they have you winning before you even get there. I mean, they weren’t even on the Olympic team. Yes, I absolutely – I locked into that, and I said, “something’s wrong here. And someone needs to pull back and let them…” I saw it taking away from their training. And mentally, it’s – you know, I think it was overwhelming for – maybe especially Keauna, I’m not sure, you know, I don’t know her that well. And I only spent a day with them in Colorado. So I wasn’t really a mentor, I was just, you know, I was there to support them. I went there as a friend to give them advice, to really talk them. And their coach. But yeah, I think they did way too much before the fact. And look what happened. I know it’s hard to say no to, you know, these big sponsors because you want them later on in your professional career. So it – there’s a way to balance it. And there’s a way to know, or you should know, when it’s taking away from your training. So I was sorry because I loved the pair team of Keauna and Rockne. I thought they were wonderful and on their way and it just – that was a – it was so sad for me when it didn’t happen, and then, you know, Rockne and Mary Beth. Again, it’s like – oh, my gosh, something’s gotta change. But that’s the USFS – talk to us. Talk to us who won worlds, who held their titles for five years. Reach out to the, you know, your past, and the just – they don’t. They don’t. And we have so much to offer.

Jenny: Yeah, something I think was – from that same podcast that you referenced earlier, Dave, that I really found was interesting. When you and Randy got fifth at the Olympics in 1976, you said that you were kind of happy, that you felt like it was good, that you didn’t have this medal performance your first time, that you came up gradually. And we’ve seen many of these teams I think that – some of the teams that you spoke of – it seems like their first or second season together, they’re medaling at nationals. They’re going on and they’re competing internationally. And I even think of single skaters like Naomi Nari Nam in 1999 where she got second her first senior nationals which is unbelievable. And then the next season, she was injured and wasn’t able to repeat that, and some of the pairs teams it seems they break up. Do you think there’s a question of too much, too soon and what advice would you have for a pair team or any athlete who comes in their first or second year on the senior level and medals and suddenly has these endorsements? How can they kind of resolve that feeling of having so much yet still pacing themselves?

Tai: Well, I think it’s – that’s another great question – I think, and you mentioned it, where the agents get involved. We – we had a coach. That was it. We had Mr. Nicks. There was no publicist, there was no manager, there was no agent, you know – we didn’t have that team. And now, everyone has an agent and everyone has their people, and it’s – I think it’s a distraction. They don’t know what it is to be an athlete and to train and to, you know, come up the ranks and compete. An agent doesn’t know this, they want the finished product. And it is too much too fast, but I think the agents and manages are to blame for that. They’ve gotta step back and let these skaters, these amateur skaters, you know, train properly and compete properly without this outside. You know, the Hollywood stuff will come later, I can guarantee you if you’re good, it’ll come later. If you’re solid, and you’ve got something really special, it’ll come later. But, you know – focus in on your competing. Too many distractions to me. And it’s – we see it in our performances, in the skater’s performances, the US skaters. There’s too much going on, and some of them look untrained. I see a lot of excuse-making. I don’t like hearing – I don’t know if this is just me, but it’s a turn-off when I hear about boot problems. It’s a turn-off if I hear you’ve got a headache or you got the flu or you have this – it’s like, I don’t want to hear it, I don’t. If you’re sick, don’t compete. If your boots aren’t proper, why didn’t you get them fixed before you got to worlds or the Olympics or whatever? There is excuses – I’m not used to that. We would never, ever, ever, ever, back in our day, be allowed to say what some of these skaters are saying in their interviews coming off. It’s – you know, they’ll make a mistake, but they’ll come back with – well, I’m happy because I, you know, I did this jump and I’m so proud of myself because I did that jump, yet they missed this and this. You know, you had a bad day, just say you had a bad day and move on. But it’s – I was talking to a friend of mine, Rus, the other night about this. I don’t know if it’s entitlement or they just don’t know any better. But it takes away – for me, it takes away from what it’s all about. You had a bad day, it’s okay. You’ll go home and train harder and be better the next year. Don’t – excuse-making is new to me. And it’s a turn-off. It’s negative to me. Am I being harsh?

Jenny: No. I think it’s – I remember, I don’t want to name the athlete’s name, but I was watching a competition – I think it was Skate America earlier this season. And this athlete said – well, I need to go fix my new nutrition. It was something really outrageous where you think – I have never heard a skater reference that. And this – it was a male skater, so usually you don’t even – it was just, and his nutrition seemed fine. And it was almost if – I don’t want to put words in his mouth or insinuate, but as a viewer, I thought – own that you didn’t skate well, and maybe there is a problem with your nutrition or whatnot, but don’t pull these excuses out of a bag even if they are – own it. And say there are things I need to work on instead of making excuses.

Tai: Yeah. That’s all. That I get because we’ve all been there. We’ve all been there. We’ve all had bad skates. But I would never – oh, my God, Mr. Nicks would kill, he would choke us if we said boot problems? Boot problems! Any problems? You know, first of all the boots that they have now are nothing like the ones we had back when we were skating. They are so cushy and molded to your foot. So I don’t get the whole problem thing, but it’s just like you said, Jenny – own it. Just own it. And why aren’t people catching – it’s like, don’t say that! Don’t, it’s – who’s advising the skaters? Is it the agents, is it the USFS, is it the coaches saying that’s okay to say that? You know, we would never get caught dead.

Part IX

Jenny: And it seems like it’s so much – we’re protecting this image, and I think it goes back to what we talked about earlier with the eating disorder and not wanting to speak out. This image that we’re these perfect people, and if we mess up, it wasn’t our fault. It was something out of control. It was our boots or this or that, and sometimes that does come into play, but I think it is taking that veil off, and I spoke about this before, and just saying – we’re human! We have problems! And it’s okay, we can still get the endorsements and people still will tune into skating probably more so if they feel like they can relate to the athletes as opposed to this perfect ice queen image.

Tai: Yes, absolutely. You know, I can’t even – you said it right there. It’s – what are they protecting? What are they protecting? It’s – they’re human. We’re human. I don’t know, it’s all new to me. It’s – what I hear, I sit there thinking, “who – who advised them to say there was a boot problem or there was a blade problem or they didn’t have, you know, the training was..” It’s like – who feeds them that? Or is it just off the top of their head? It’s shocking to me. It’s shocking to me because we would never get away with that. You know, my mom is like – no! If you want to complain, wait until you get out to the car or the bus or your hotel room and then you can complain. But you know… ugh.

Dave: How about complaining about injuries? I mean, people will be so – if they have a bad skate, we find out that they have a hip problem, you know, right afterwards. You know, did people complain?

Tai: I don’t want to hear about that. I don’t want to hear it, I really don’t! Of course I feel for you, but it’s – it takes away from, I don’t know, it just seems – not wimpy, that’s the wrong word. It’s whiny. It’s whiny to me. And if it is that bad, don’t compete. Is it the commentator’s fault for – you know, do they need this stuff to make it seem more interesting, to get people to watch? I don’t know, I have no idea. I just know for me, personally, it’s a turn-off. It is – I don’t like hearing about it. I don’t.

Dave: Now, you were talking about agents and how Hollywood would come earlier. You obviously became, you know, America’s sweetheart overnight in 1980. And you dated a lot of famous people. Did all this being in a different world – the, you know, adjustment from skating to Hollywood – you know, how much did that impact your addiction and everything? We were wondering. You dated rock stars! You had a life.

Tai: I did, oh, my God. I think because I lived here, it’s just part – it was a natural. It’s just natural. Here in LA, you’re surrounded by it. You can’t get away from it. And back then, because we, you know, we were on TV a lot, and we were very popular. I would walk into a room and all the heads were turning. People would come to you as – that was just the way it was. Was it fun? It was absolutely fun. It was the best time, the best time in the ‘80s. But you’ve gotta learn to pace yourself, you know, I wanted – bring more. More, more, more. You know, it’s part of my story. I learned my lesson. I’ve learned to pace myself, I’ve learned who my real friends are. You know, I have a handful of friends who I can trust now. I can count on one hand the ones who I would reach out to. You just have to know your limits. I didn’t know my limits. And as we see here, you know, there are a lot of young girls who don’t know their limits. I just think it’s part of the process, and you have to stumble and fall. You have to make mistakes to get it right, you know, further down the road, and I did. I learned my lesson. And I learned it the hard way.

Jenny: And with learning that lesson, as we start to wrap things up, I read an article, and I could relate to so much of what you said in this. You said after 1980, you were, as Dave talked about, America’s sweetheart. You had all this stuff going. And you said, “but I still didn’t know how to balance a checkbook.” It was these little things that I think so many skaters, when we leave the sport, we’re mature beyond our years. We have to handle pressure and being able to just be on and be out there in front of so many people. But it’s those little life things that maybe we stumble with that can start to mount and contribute to other problems. So – what advice? So many skaters have come to me saying – at every level, leaving the sport, they’re kinda lost. What advice would you have for skaters who are looking to step away, step off the ice and into a new life?

Tai: I think communication is huge. It was a big part of my problem, just not knowing – I think I had the voice, I think it was there. I just didn’t know I was allowed to use it. I mean, just now, just recently, in the last five years, it’s like – you’ve got a voice. You’re allowed to use it. You’re allowed to say – I’m tired. You’re allowed to say – no, I don’t want that or I don’t want this or yes I want this. You know, you’re allowed. But I think communication is a huge thing and skaters sometimes, and more with the girls, we’re afraid to complain. We’re afraid, we don’t want to complain. We want to be stoic, and we want to be strong, and we want – you know, we just, we want to be that perfect girl, that perfect skater. And not all of us have that.

Jenny: I don’t anybody – I don’t think that’s real. I think we’re sold this image that a perfect athlete, there’s no tears, there’s no sweat, our makeup is perfect all the time, we always look the perfect way. But like you said, I just – it is that communication, I would imagine, yeah.

Tai: It’s communication, and you know, reaching out and just, you know, people may say no. And that’s okay, so you reach out to someone else. But know that it’s okay, and know that now, you have me. We have you, you two, to reach out to if there is a problem. It’s like you said, Jenny, they’re not alone. You’re not alone, I’m not alone, we’re there for you. So use us, that’s why we’re here now. This is my way of giving back to my sport is my voice, my mistakes. Learn from my mistakes as I tell my son who’s also an athlete, a tennis player – he knows, he’s seen me, he’s seen me struggle. I said, “Scout, you know, learn from Mom’s mistakes.” And he does. He does, he watches – I see him watch me, and he’s now starting to communicate and ask questions about my past, about my coach and how we communicated with each other. So it’s – use your voice. Use your voice.

Dave: So, Tai, this is The Skating Lesson Podcast. And we wanted to know – what did you learn from going from being world champion to the 1980 Games. You know, the most famous, maybe nine-ten months of your career. What did you learn from the entire experience?

Tai: The experience from going from worlds to the Olympics?

Dave: Yes, just that whole whirlwind.

Tai: Oh, my goodness. Oh, dear. It was a whirlwind. It was – Mr. Nicks factors into this big-, you know, big time because he was able to – because there was a lot of interviews request, a lot of TV, a lot of press – just a lot of that stuff, a lot of Hollywood stuff. And he was able to, you know, say no to a lot of stuff for people because he knew that the next year from worlds until the Olympics was going to be a bitch training-wise. It was tough. It was a lot of work. Yet you want some of that press – you’re going to need some of that press in your corner at some point in your career. So he knew – he knew how to pick and choose. And so I have to thank him for that. But it’s interesting because after we won worlds, great night, it was one of those performances, and it was pretty perfect. Mr. Nicks let us enjoy it and celebrate for about three days. And then it’s, you know, back to work. It’s like – don’t get too high on your horse because now the hard – now the work begins. Now the work begins. So it was just staying focused as much as you can during that crucial time. And I have to, have to thank him for that because he kept, he kept control of the madness on the outside, and when we were in the rink, it was train. So, yeah. A great coach, a great, strong coach.

Part X

Jenny: Well, we thank you so much for sharing so many of your stories, Tai. You’re so insightful and honest, and I think you’re going to help a lot of people with everything that you said during this interview. I really appreciate it because I know how hard it is sometimes to come out and to speak about this, but like you said, it’s more of us coming together and talking about all of our lessons, the experiences that will help the younger batch of skaters and non-skaters. So before we end, we want to end on a fun note. So Dave and I are going to say the name of someone from the skating world, and we want you to tell us the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear this person’s name, okay?

Tai: Okay.

Jenny: So, we’re going to start with Mr. Nicks.

Tai: Oh. I get weepy! Oh, my God – respect. Respect. Mr. Nicks, respect.

Dave: Irina Rodnina.

Tai: Respect.

Jenny: Randy Gardner.

Tai: Oh, my God, you guys are – get me. Respect is in there with Randy, soul mate. Oh, my God… that’s – I’m going to start crying. I’m going to start crying.

Jenny: I just – I can’t imagine – I can understand spending so much of your life with somebody and just – he’s your partner on and off the ice in so many ways, in good times and in bad.

Tai: Yes, because he’s in there for me through thick and thin. Pair skaters, learn from this, because he, you know, he had to sit and watch me go through my stuff. And he stuck with me. So I would say with Randy, it’s respect and loyalty and communication is getting better. Not perfect, but it’s baby steps with us. That’s just – that’s who we are.

Dave: How about ?

Tai: Oh, my gosh. These are all great ones, this is family. You guys are hitting my family. Dick Button. Always good to Tai and Randy even when we weren’t at our best. So, we were lucky. We were lucky to have him in our corner because I think back then he could kind of make you or break you. And we were – we got, we pulled on his heartstrings especially after what happened in Lake Placid.

Jenny: Yeah, you always wanted to have Dick on your side, I remember that! What about the other commentator, Jim McCay?

Tai: Jim McCay – miss him dearly. Another one who was in our corner. I consider that, you know, part of our skating family. He, you know, like Dick Button, even when Randy and I weren’t a hundred percent at nationals or worlds, they always found something great to say about us. You know, yes, they talked about the mistakes, but always were complimentary. And I miss him so much, as so many skaters do. We miss, you know, that ABC family. Dick Button, Jim McCay, and Chris Schenkel.

Dave: How about JoJo Starbuck?

Tai: Oh, my gosh, idol. You guys are going to make me cry!

Jenny: But they’re good tears!

Tai: JoJo – my idol. She and Kenny. We were so lucky to have been able to see them train before they turned professional and be able to train with the same coach. You know, you can’t get any better than that. And to this day, she is so at the top of my life of skating legends and people who I idolized and just again, respect. Respect.

Jenny: Okay, and Linda Fratianne.

Tai: Oh, my girl! My girl, my teammate, she’s also from the San Fernando Valley, so we were the two Valley girls. I have so much to thank Linda for. She introduced me to my very first boyfriend, Christopher Knight.

Jenny: He was our next name!

Dave: Yes, he’s our next!

Jenny: We’re on the same wavelength, Tai!

Tai: She introduced me to Chris Knight, Peter Brady from The Brady Bunch. Christopher still to this day is a great friend, one I reach out to. One I reached out to after the Olympics, one who listened, one who tried to guide me and teach me about Hollywood and the pitfalls of Hollywood. So Christopher is up there on my list, and still to this day we’re the best of friends.

Dave: How about PETA?

Tai: PETA, PETA… PETA?

Dave: Were you naked for PETA?

Tai: Yes, I was naked for PETA. I was as naked as I could be. I was about to get arrested, which could have been cool, too. I got some flak for that PETA event, but with it, it was all about not wearing fur. So the flak I got, and we did this in New York at Rockefeller Center at the beginning of a public session. No one knew what was going on, there was some press going into it saying I was going to be naked. You can’t be naked, so I got as naked as I could. But the flak I got from the public was – yes, I was in no fur, but I was in leather boots, skating boots. So that was – you know, then they had something to pick at. Well, she’s not – she’s in leather. So it kind of, you know, but I didn’t do it for them. I – this was for the animals, for me. So I was – it was a wonderful moment, I was scared to death before I stepped on the ice. Probably the most press I’ve ever gotten alone. It was paparazzi plus, it was amazing. So I did it for the right reasons. And you know, it was a special moment. It was, you know, I felt very strong and powerful that day. So no regrets. No regrets.

Jenny: That’s perfect, no regrets. And our final person, interesting person in skating – Tatiana Tarasova.

Tai: Oh, that’s an interesting one. Legend, the coach, correct?

Jenny: Correct.

Tai: Legend, powerful. I would say powerful. And just, you know a great coach, but just – when I see her, or when even just hearing the name, it’s a very powerful name. And what a track record she has. So…

Jenny: Well, what a track record you have, Tai! You were wonderful – thank you so much, again, for joining us, for sharing your story, and for being the first guest on The Skating Lesson podcast! We really, really appreciate it.

Tai: I appreciate it, too. You guys – thank you so much, and good luck with the next one. And I hope people, especially the young girls will take this and learn from it. I’m in their corner.

Jenny: So am I.

Dave: Thank you.

[Tai leaves]

Dave: We’d obviously like to thank Tai Babilonia for all of her time and insight today.

Jenny: We’d also like to thank Kevin Quasnaski?(again, name issue) for our amazing graphics. And if you have anything you want to talk to us about, any lessons you want to share, send us an e-mail at [email protected].

Dave: We’d also like to thank all of you for tuning into the first ever episode of The Skating Lesson podcast. And we’d like to remind you to always hold an edge..

Together: And look sexy! Bye, guys!