House of Commons Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
Current issues facing the PSNI
Oral evidence
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE, Police Service of Northern Ireland
Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 24 January 2013
HC 877-i Published on 4 April 2013 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £7.50
Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Northern Ireland Office (but excluding individual cases and advice given by the Crown Solicitor); and other matters within the responsibilities of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (but excluding the expenditure, administration and policy of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, Northern Ireland and the drafting of legislation by the Office of the Legislative Counsel).
Current membership Mr Laurence Robertson MP (Conservative, Tewkesbury) (Chair) Mr David Anderson MP (Labour, Blaydon) Mr Joe Benton MP (Labour, Bootle) Oliver Colvile MP (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) Mr Stephen Hepburn MP (Labour, Jarrow) Lady Hermon MP (Independent, North Down) Kate Hoey MP (Labour, Vauxhall) Naomi Long MP (Alliance, Belfast East) Jack Lopresti MP (Conservative, Filton and Bradley Stoke) Dr Alasdair McDonnell MP (SDLP, Belfast South) Nigel Mills MP (Conservative, Amber Valley) Ian Paisley MP (DUP, North Antrim) Andrew Percy MP (Conservative, Brigg and Goole) David Simpson MP (DUP, Upper Bann)
Powers The committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No. 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk.
Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/niacom.
Current Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Mike Clark (Clerk), Duma Langton (Inquiry Manager), Edward Faulkner (Senior Committee Assistant), Ravi Abhayaratne (Committee Support Assistant) and Jessica Bridges-Palmer (Media Officer).
Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 2173; the Committee’s email address is [email protected].
List of witnesses
Wednesday 24 January 2013 Page
Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE, Police Service of Northern Ireland Ev 1
Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 1
Oral evidence
Taken before the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on Thursday 24 January 2013
Members present: Mr Laurence Robertson (Chair)
Mr David Anderson Dr Alasdair McDonnell Mr Oliver Colvile Nigel Mills Lady Hermon Ian Paisley Kate Hoey David Simpson Naomi Long ______
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE, Police Service of Northern Ireland, gave evidence.
Q1 Chair: Can I begin the public session? Just sought to introduce, has been at its highest level for before I get to our guests, on 18 January it was many, many years. announced that the Chairman of the Police Federation So that is encouragement, but clearly there are current of England and Wales, Mr Paul McKeever, had died, difficulties with regards to the flag protests. I am and I think we ought to record the Committee’s relentlessly optimistic that we will see through these condolences to Mr McKeever’s family, friends and problems, and it is an opportunity for some of the colleagues. perhaps underlying issues of deprivation, Chief Constable, you are very welcome. Thank you disadvantages and grievances to be aired. Obviously very much for joining us. We have quite a few areas we would always rather that was done without the we would like to cover with you, if that is okay, but violence, but there is an opportunity now to listen, can I first of all ask you if you would like to briefly take a step back and move two steps forward again, introduce your colleagues and perhaps make an which we are working very hard to achieve. So at that opening statement? point Chair, I will hand over to you and the Matt Baggott: We have Deputy Chief Constable Committee to ask any questions that you may wish to. Judith Gillespie and Assistant Chief Constable, Chair: Thank you very much. I think we will start responsible for all crime matters, Drew Harris; and I with the flag protests, as they have become known. am Matt Baggott, the Chief Constable. I think I will probably keep my opening statement fairly short Q2 Naomi Long: Thank you for the opening because I imagine Members have got a lot of remarks, which cover, I think, some of the questions questions that they want to ask. I have two things to that I have, but there are other elements I want to say: first, how immensely proud I am of the PSNI at raise. Could you just clarify for us how many of your this time. I know Members will be aware of the last officers have been injured during the protests and the eight weeks of disorder and multiple protests, and it trouble? You have said that your organisation is has been a very testing time for the organisation. resilient, but how is morale within the force at the Some evenings we have had up to 80 protests moment? involving thousands of people—localised but very Matt Baggott: We have had 129 officers injured over intense seats of disorder—which have had to be dealt the course of the last eight weeks, and every one of with alongside the continuing threat from dissident those is a serious matter. We have been very fortunate republicans and organised crime. Even in the last that we have not had officers very seriously injured. week we have seized £200,000 worth of cocaine. So We have currently, I think, 13 officers who are still business as usual carries on in spite of disturbances. reported sick, and that is a large-scale reflection of the But it has been a testing time. We will get through difficulty and the intensity of some of the violence this; the organisation is immensely resilient. I am very towards them. proud of colleagues and their commitment to this. Naomi Long: And morale? Suffice it to say, at the beginning of the year we were Matt Baggott: I always make a decision not to talk hoping to be celebrating—I say celebrating, but all about morale as such because, having been in this crime is something that has victims so it is difficult to service now for nearly 35 years, every year I am told celebrate crime—some of the lowest crime figures for that morale is getting lower. So I do not talk about many years. Our overall crime has fallen across all that. I talk about commitment, actually, and categories. Serious violence and murders have not motivation, and I have to say the commitment and the been lower since 1968 and road deaths in Northern motivation of colleagues in the PSNI, even when I Ireland have not been lower since the 1920s. have been to visit them in hospital, has been Confidence in the PSNI, I think because of the efforts exemplary. They have stood in the front line in the last particularly around the personal policing we have eight weeks in a way that is beyond all expectation. Ev 2 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE
They have concerns about the long-term resilience of Matt Baggott: I might let Mr Harris deal with the the organisation, which we may talk about later and specifics with regard to social media. Suffice it to say which are concerns that I have, particularly in light of that we have not just sought our own legal advice on the events of the last six months and looking forward this but also gone outside of the PSNI. We currently over the next couple of years. So there are issues have senior Metropolitan Police officers working with about resilience; there are issues for them about us and sharing with us their own experience of the changes in service pay and conditions, which I think London riots, and we have taken the CPS advice, is reflective of much of the UK; and there are clearly which I think was issued by Keir Starmer in concerns about the long hours that they are having to December, in relation to offences committed on social work at the moment to deal with this problem. But I media. We are talking about that with our own Public do not think you have an organisation that does so Prosecution Service to see whether we can pursue it. well against crime and against such difficulty in the I would have to say, it is not easy. Drew can brief you current situation unless their commitment and on some of the details, but we have put a number of motivation is at the highest level, and I absolutely cases to the PPS already that have not reached the applaud them for that. I could not have asked for evidential threshold. more. In relation to the video and photographs, we have a very clearly worked out policy and procedure with our Q3 Naomi Long: I think we would all recognise that Northern Ireland Policing Board, which is very much has been the case. Just in terms of support for injured focused on human rights. We will be issuing officers and officers who have been threatened, significant numbers of photographs in due course, but obviously in my own constituency there have been we will go through the process first of all of trying two attempted murders of police officers recently, one to reach identification before we put them into the by loyalists and one by republicans. What kind of media itself. support do they receive, both from the PSNI and more Drew Harris: Just in respect of what has been said in widely, in terms of being able to deal with those social media, unlike the situation in the summer of particular issues? 2011, people are not actually directly calling for riot- Matt Baggott: There is a very clear process of type situations and they are careful in their working with the officers in relation to their own terminology when using social media, and so it is individual threats and risks, which can involve a couched in terms of “peaceful protest” as opposed to whole raft of support services, from obviously the very inflammatory comments that were actually SPED scheme, through to protective measures, inciting riot or inciting large-scale criminality, be it through to occupational health and welfare. So it very looting or something else. So, the actual incitement to much depends upon the individual circumstances and riot is not found in those comments. Secondly, there the degree of risk that they are facing, but the PSNI is a lot of commentary that is abusive on social media, is a very caring organisation and we do ensure that and the issues we have around that are first, the we do everything possible for both them and their identification, and secondly, the high standard that families. now has been set in terms of the criminal standard of proof around what in normal conversation could be Q4 Naomi Long: I have a couple of questions regarded as being abusive and what level that needs regarding the policing of the situation. The first is in to reach in terms of then sustaining prosecution. relation to social media, which is something that I Other offences do exist if the evidence is there, have raised with you before, and the use of social obviously—threats to kill, all the issues around media to orchestrate some of the protests and indeed incitement, and all the issues we have around some of the violence. There has been a debate as to incitement to hatred as well. These things are all whether or not prosecutions can be sustained. We saw covered in legislation but all of those have a high very swift prosecutions in relation to social media threshold in terms of the evidence required to sustain with the London riots, for example. Is there a a criminal prosecution, and that has been reinforced difference in the legal context in Northern Ireland? by recent advice by the CPS. Obviously, we do take What is the barrier to being able to pursue complaints about what is said on social media. Those prosecutions around social media—Facebook, Twitter are investigated, but even going onto a site such as and so on? Also, recently there was a case taken by Twitter, on social media one accepts that you may see an individual who was threatened on Facebook, and stuff that you regard as being distasteful, abusive or I believe it was a successful prosecution. So, is that insulting. So there is a very high standard. something that the PSNI are actively considering at Now, in terms of the civil standard, where an this point in time? individual asked in the civil court for comments to be The second issue is about video and photographic removed, that is an entirely different set of evidence. There has been quite a lot collated of people requirements, and the individual was able to bring that involved in riotous behaviour where their faces are themselves because the comments were posted about clearly seen and where they could be identified. Will that individual, identifying them and identifying their we be seeing the kinds of photomontages, for occupation. So there was an issue about their example, that we saw after the Ardoyne situation last reputation, but also their own safety and their safety summer and that would allow the public to assist the in their employment, and that was dealt with through police in identifying individuals who have been the civil courts and we were not involved in that engaged in that activity? directly. Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 3
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE
Q5 Naomi Long: You will, though, have seen some information from getting through? Would that be a of the comments? I mean, for example, there are useful power to have or do you think it is a bit too comments on social media that we have recorded heavy-handed? around people saying things like, “Let’s go smash up Matt Baggott: I have two things on that; my their office,” for example. I mean that is incitement, colleagues may have their own views. Firstly, I think surely, to commit an offence, and that would have to it would be potentially quite dangerous for people not be investigated in that way. to be able to access the emergency services or Drew Harris: Yes. That may well amount to a communicate, and we do have powers to use such criminal incitement, and then from there that is subject intrusive measures if we have to, but they are used to investigation. But people are careful about their incredibly sparingly. identity and switch identities on social media, and that Oliver Colvile: Sure. is subject to investigation and we have to work then Matt Baggott: So I think it would be a very difficult back through the internet providers to try to get some thing to do. Secondly I think, apart from the human sense of where that came from and who was involved. rights concerns, that might just make sure this goes completely underground; we would not have sight or Q6 Mr Anderson: I am not quite sure what it is like visibility of what people are planning at all, and that in Northern Ireland but certainly this side of the Irish in itself would be very difficult for us. Sea there is stuff circulating that is not inciting people Drew Harris: But practically, what we find is when to riot but is inciting people to go across to Belfast disorder breaks out, the social media chatter dwindles and other places and take part in illegal activity. We to almost nothing, and so outside of these events there heard last week from the Minister that this is about is a lot of social media activity, but actually during public order, and because none of these serious disorder it dwindles away to nothing. demonstrations have got the sanction of the Parades Matt Baggott: Chair, on social media, we have Commission, they are all illegal acts. Surely, that is actually referred a significant number of cases already something you should be looking at, if only from the to the PPS, and there is not one that has passed the point of view of preventing people taking part in these evidential test. So we are exploring with them, in the acts before they take place. You have got the power light of the guidance, what might be done. I have to do that. suggested that this may be something in Northern Drew Harris: Well, a parade has to be notified under Ireland that the Attorney-General wishes to look at, the relevant legislation. The only protest that has to specifically in relation to the Northern Ireland context, be notified is a protest in respect of an already notified and he could advise the Office of the First Minister parade, and so an actual protest event not connected and Deputy First Minister whether there are any gaps to a parade falls outside the scope of the parades in current local legislation that would cover this legislation. Then we are left dealing with that in terms aspect. of it being a protest, which is then governed by public order legislation. Q10 Naomi Long: Just leading on from what we were discussing and what David raised earlier with Q7 Mr Anderson: You could apply section 5 of the respect to the illegality of a number of the protests, Public Order Act to stop people going to those places there are key elements to this. First of all there is the where you believe there is the chance of action. It was fact that, while even the peaceful protests have often used widely in 1984 and 1985 in this country to stop not been lawful in terms of blocking roads and people moving all over the place. causing disruption and so on, the other side of it is Drew Harris: We do not have the direct legislation to that almost on a weekly basis, there has been an illegal correspond to that section 5. parade that has followed the protest in the city centre. So we have had people essentially process all along Q8 Mr Anderson: For people who come from this the main carriageway and back to East Belfast, and side of the Irish Sea, you could. that has been a particular issue. They have also Drew Harris: I do not really believe we have had a processed to the city centre from different parts of the mass movement of people coming across the channel city for that protest. Those parades are not currently to get themselves involved in these protests. There being notified to the Parades Commission and the have undoubtedly been some, but really this is very police are essentially policing them, and therefore much a local problem in terms of the personalities there is something of a vacuum in terms of their involved. status. Could you give us some indication of what impact Q9 Oliver Colvile: First of all, forgive me but I am you feel that may have on the processes in the summer going to have to leave at 10.30 to go to something as we come into parade season, in terms of people else, but what I am curious to know is, is it the case essentially going around, rather than through, the that the majority of those people who are using social Parades Commission? Are you concerned at all that media obtain that information through their mobile the police will be left in the situation that they were phones or some mobile activity rather than at home in prior to the Parades Commission being established, on the computer? And would it be helpful, therefore, where they will effectively hold the ring in making to have the powers to be able, when something like decisions about where and when parades take place, this kicks off big time, to just close down the mobile as well as having to police the decision? Do you phone mast network, which would stop that believe that this is a deliberate tactic or simply an Ev 4 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE unintended consequence or risk of the activity that is Q11 Naomi Long: Just to confirm, are you concerned going on at the moment? that the parades issue essentially has been placed in a Matt Baggott: Thank you for that. First of all, the very difficult context coming into the summer and that Belfast protest has been referred to the Parades the police are being put in an undesirable position, Commission with regard to working through with because I know it was always the view of the PSNI them what the implication of that is in relation to the that you would not end up making decisions about Parades Commission’s role, its responsibilities and the parades and then policing them? framework, and I understand that the Parades Matt Baggott: I am concerned; I keep using the word Commission is currently seeking its own legal advice safety. There has to be a respected regulatory body on that. I do not have a timescale for that, but I that can make determinations about the routes and the thought it was right, firstly because of our legal duty, boundaries around parades, particularly when you are and secondly because if the Parades Commission dealing with over 3,000 in the summer. The parading probably exists for anything, it exists to deal with season actually starts in a few weeks’ time, and at the public safety, and I quite agree with the comments. moment I think what we have seen in the last six At the moment we have a large gathering of people; weeks and beyond that has potentially undermined the on Saturday it was well over 1000. Without proper authority of a body that was set up originally—and stewarding, proper boundaries and proper regulation the Deputy and Drew are much more in favour of it becomes a significant matter of public crowds in a this—to deal with issues of public safety. So, that is public space, and that has huge safety implications. the concern I have. With regard to whether it gets So we are concerned about that, but we have referred replaced or what replaces it, I think that is a matter it to the Parades Commission and asked them to for the politicians to decide. I am quite adamant that consider this and their own responsibilities. In relation I do not want policing being put in the middle of being to the actual protests themselves and our role, I am the arbiter of this and going back to the days when very clear on this. Our role primarily has to be around policing was accused of being politically biased one article 2, which is protection of life and property. Our way or the other. I think this is a decision that has to decision making starts with that criteria, and I think be made by politicians, but it does need a firm that is a very helpful one. regulatory framework. Then obviously we consider the right of assembly, Chair: Thank you. We will move on now. which is quite difficult and complex in terms of law because the law sort of says you can have a right to Q12 David Simpson: You are very welcome, the assembly, even if it involves some degree of three of you; it is good to see you again. In your disruption and breaches of the law, if it is reasonable. opening statement you mentioned briefly, Chief So we have to consider that at the same time, but the Constable, social deprivation and maybe education. I safety aspect is the first one. The law enforcement know you touched on it very, very briefly, but do you aspect of that is that clearly we do not want large believe that the flag issue itself was just a catalyst to numbers blocking the roads. That is an inconvenience other underlying issues as regards investment? We and again it is a safety issue. But what we have to do have heard terminology used about engagement with is look at a number of levels of public safety. The first politicians and others. There are that many political is in relation to the individual protest. If we have 40 offices around Belfast, I fail to see how that is the or 50 people there in a road, clearly we will try to case. But that is the sort of message we are getting negotiate or move them, but we have to consider that back. Are there more deep-rooted issues there and also against the backdrop of potentially 50 or 60 why do you think—you may have touched on this in protests. If we take one of those protests out and tie your previous comments—it has lasted so long? up three TSGs, we then lose significant numbers to Matt Baggott: To cover the first point first, I think the deal with the potential outbreak of serious disorder flag issue has created a rallying point for a raft of later down the line. So, it is a combination of decision grievances, concerns and historical issues that are making around safety for the individual protest, the beyond the flag itself and the decision made by the combination of all the protests added together, what City Council. I think that is undoubtedly the case. If the intelligence picture is telling us around where we you listen to the people who have been bringing might get serious violence and the need to retain people out onto the streets, they have brought together resources to deal with that. a whole range of individual grievances with other What will not be compromised in the long term is concerns. So, I think it is a rallying point. Secondly, justice in relation to particularly serious offending. We with regard to the intense areas of disorder, they have have taken about six weeks, about the same time I followed historical places of high disadvantage and think as the Met took, to put together a significant high deprivation. team of 70 people headed by a detective So, I do not think the deprivation is the causal factor, superintendent, who at the moment are working but I think when you have concerns, tension and through many hours of evidence gathering. Now, if social tension in particular, it tends to manifest itself we cannot deal with it at the time, we evidence-gather, in violence in areas where historically we have had and that will follow the due process. Well over 170 paramilitary control, where we have had young people people have already been arrested in relation to these growing up without a huge degree of employment protests, and over 120 have been charged. That is not opportunity and where there are, for example, an insignificant number, but that will grow significantly higher suicide rates. I am very much significantly in the weeks and months that follow. aware of the effort that is going in at the moment to Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 5
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE try to resolve those issues, but the disorder we have nobody seems to be in control of that and it lends had over the last seven to eight weeks has been in itself to the police, of course, to have to reassert good areas of particular, I would say, historical order. But on some nights we have had up to 300 to disadvantage. 400 young people rioting. I think half those who have been arrested so far are under the age of 21, which in Q13 David Simpson: Can I cut across just on one itself is a reflection of a generation of young people point? Your community officers, I assume, would still growing up without sufficient purpose in their engage with the community groups in that area and lives. there would be the normal contact. What feedback are you getting back from community groups? What are Q14 Ian Paisley: Just on the back of that—and again the issues? I mean we hear so much in the press, and I add my words of welcome to you and your team, I repeat again what I have said, about disengagement Chief—had you any intelligence emerging prior to the and all of those things, but I know the PSNI do a lot removal of the flag at City Hall that indicated that of work with different youth groups and all the rest. there was going to be unrest on the sort of scale that What feedback do your community officers get on the we have seen? ground? What really is the root cause of this? We Drew Harris: No, there was no indication of the scale know the flag issue is a catalyst and all the rest, but of it and how long it would keep going. I think, just what are you hearing? in relation to what Mr Simpson was also saying about Matt Baggott: It is very mixed feedback. First, on how long this has now gone on for, we are now in our behalf of the neighbourhood officers and us, we have eighth week; some of that is actually a feature of a part to play in this but we are obviously not the social media and the ability to reach out to other like- solution. minded people and coalesce together and organise David Simpson: No. using social media, and that has no doubt kept some Matt Baggott: I think there is a very heavy emphasis momentum in it. Also, there were still unresolved placed upon police officers to try to be the solution issues from the summer’s marching season of last through the enforcement of law. That is important, but year, which ended on quite a bitter note in the end and it is not the solution. What we get back is how fragile which remained unresolved, and that has added into the views of the people that live across the road still this protest as well. are. The suspicion and the mistrust that people hoped would be resolved very quickly have not been, and I Q15 Ian Paisley: Your answer does seem to suggest think those old views remain entrenched by that the spark, as some people say, was an attack on a sometimes the boundaries of the estate, the murals, symbol or the removal of a symbol. That has really the storytelling, the mythology. What we are picking been more than a catalyst but really has been up is that a significant number of young people are something that has caught everyone unawares—that still growing up believing that there is an enemy the removal of that has pricked people into action. across the road, and we have to name that for what it Drew Harris: There is a lot of anger out there, very is, which is very sad. I think that is probably why we obviously, about this, and there has been enough still have more peace walls now than we had in the emotion to keep it going now for eight weeks as well. Good Friday Agreement. It just seemed for a lot of people that this was just too There is an awful lot that is going on that is good, let far for them, and officers on the ground are subjected me say, to counterbalance that. I was out at to this anger and it is very clear as well, looking at Ballymacarrett myself in November, meeting some of social media, the amount of anger there is, and it is the youth workers there, and undoubtedly there are reflected both in the protests but also then obviously things happening below the radar that are incredibly unfortunately in criminality and threats and all that positive. But there is an awful lot of work to be done which has flowed from it. But undoubtedly, this seems still to deal with historical enmity. I think one of the to have touched a nerve. problems—it is an issue that we have been working Ian Paisley: I sense in my own work in the on ourselves through what we call our Collaborative community that that nerve has been touched in people Working in Disadvantaged Areas programme—is that who have no truck at all with protests or riots, and there is a lack of joined-up social planning in those people who are law-abiding citizens are just areas because of the way in which politics is divided. completely scundered, if that is the right word, by Different departments are run by different political what has happened, in terms of an attack on their parties, and I think that makes it very hard in spite of symbol. This is something we really have to get to the existence of the East Belfast task group, for grips with and address. Thank you. example, to actually look at five or 10-year improvement plans for particular areas that look at Q16 Nigel Mills: Mr Baggott, I think in your last the housing, the environment, the highways, the youth statement you were talking about there being a lot of provision and education as an entity as opposed to young people with not enough to do who were separate provisions being provided by different perhaps out for mischief, and this has now dragged on departments. So I think some of that is a gap, and my for eight weeks. Could you have been a little tougher colleagues would say that to me at the same time. at the start in trying to get people off the street and Some of it I think is quite frankly young people get them arrested and charged with something? without enough to do. We have had hundreds of young Perhaps the feeling of what we learnt from the riots people on the streets some nights rioting where over here last year was that a tougher policing Ev 6 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE approach was needed rather than perhaps a gentle dissident republicanism, dealing with organised crime, hoping it dies down at the start. I accept that we have managing public protection and delivering personal very different situations, but with hindsight do you policing, and that can only work properly when people wish you could have been a little tougher at the start? either adhere to what the law says, or we have short- Matt Baggott: Actually I do not, and I will be very term issues of major disorder or protest, or we have clear about this, for a number of reasons. I might the consent of the people. So I am very nervous about invite the Deputy to speak a little bit about her the numbers here. experience, and perhaps Drew, of policing in the last few decades. First, I think it is important to note that Q17 David Simpson: Can I cut across, just on what it was different, and I am grateful for your saying so, you are saying about the numbers? I mean, is that the because I think there is a danger of making false issue here? The nature of Northern Ireland being what comparisons between what happened in London, it is—yes we have moved a long way, but is it the Manchester and Birmingham. I think the similarity case that the numbers are too fine to handle difficulties there was the role of social media in galvanising large when it comes to a certain point? We know we no numbers of people on to the street very quickly. But longer have the large numbers that you had at the they are so different as almost to be incomparable. height of the troubles, but there are almost 50% less One was essentially mass looting on a vast scale. Ours or thereabouts than what we had, so when there is a touches on deep-seated sectarian views, miles and difficulty the PSNI seem to come under severe miles of peace walls, large areas of disadvantage, pressure to try to cope with it. You mentioned earlier which are open to manipulation, and, to be frank, is on that, if there is an issue, you move in with the riot aimed at the police, involving not just petrol bombs squad to deal with it; what happens in another part of but blast bombs, potentially, and a significant threat the city? You seem to be stretched. That is only my from ballistic attack. observation; I could be totally wrong. But you seem So they are very, very different, both in terms of the to be stretched. nature, the cause, the level and the intensity of the Matt Baggott: I will come back to the numbers issue violence directed at the police, and the consequence. in a minute. I do not think the issue is simply about I cautioned our media over there about making these numbers. When thousands decide to engage in civil comparisons because it is too neat and too simple, and disobedience, even if you have 12,000 or 15,000 or it lends itself to an expectation that policing is the 20,000 people, it still is a huge problem for you, and solution, which it is not, and that by itself is dangerous we have to work hard now at finding a solution to the because policing has a role to play but only in the grievances. We are currently looking at our resilience context of a political consensus, and only a political again. As you will be aware, two years ago we made consensus. the case—and that was very well supported, and thank Do I wish we had been harder at the beginning? The you for that indeed—that the peace dividend had been judgments we have to make on this are quite complex taken too early. In relation particularly to dealing with and they are reviewed literally every day. Firstly, had counter-terrorism and dissident threat and managing a we been overzealous and just literally gone and tried whole raft of other responsibilities, we were not to move people off the roads in a very, very robust sufficiently resourced. The £245 million we were way, my sense is the tension was such and still given over four years by the Treasury I think has been remains such that we might have ended up with wisely invested in technology and people, and last 10,000 on the street, 20,000 on the street or perhaps year, for example, we arrested over 170 people in even more on the street. Although the intelligence relation to terrorist activity. picture around the violence was not clear, over the last So that has been incredibly important in keeping the six months we have had growing tension in relation peace and freeing up people to actually deliver to parades and activity outside places of worship. The policing with the community. I think we need to Covenant parade itself was incredibly difficult, and review again at the moment, in the light of the last we still have large teams of detectives investigating six months of protest followed by protest followed by significant difficulties then. protest, the level of resourcing we have, because the So, I think tension has been growing over the last six consequence at the moment is not so much about months in relation to this and other matters, and the being able to contain it, which we can, but the fact we flag issue gave it, if you like, a cause. I have taken a are doing that by stripping out district policing. I want huge amount of advice from colleagues around the those police officers delivering neighbourhood table here. I am very blessed with having a team with policing, dealing with street-dealing and all the things over 150 years of policing experience, much of which that go with a modern police service that is operating is previous RUC and PSNI experience, let alone the within a democratic framework. So, I will hand over people we speak to every day, and their caution was, to the Deputy, who may wish to say some things on “Of course you have got to be seen to be looking after this as well. safety and enforcing the law, but if you are Judith Gillespie: This goes to the point about overzealous on this, there could well be a reaction,” resilience and morale, because this period of disorder and that goes back into history. follows hot on the heels of what has been a long Secondly, we are an organisation that is geared up to summer and a long autumn in terms of marching and operate within a democratic framework. We are no parades tension, and prior to that of course we had the longer 15,000-strong plus the Army. We are 7,000- Olympic torch run and all the jubilee events, which strong and tackling a significant threat from terrorism, put quite a considerable strain on resources as well. Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 7
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE
So officers and staff have been working very long explosively formed projectiles. The targeting of police hours for a prolonged period, and I think that is officers continues relentlessly, and I would not want important as we look forward to 2013, when we have to underestimate the breadth, depth and intent of these an exceptional year of challenges—very positive groups because the number of attacks seems to have challenges it has to be said—with G8, UK City of fallen again this year. They are undoubtedly capable Culture, World Police and Fire Games, and All- of the worst atrocities. Ireland Fleadh. Our finance then has to deal with that particular Those are unique and special events coming to problem and the potential growth in that. We do have Northern Ireland, but already the work force have a significant difference compared with our colleagues been working extremely long hours. Officers, in in England and Wales. There is no precepting, as you particular in tactical support groups and in districts, know, in Northern Ireland. Regarding the way in have been working a lot of overtime, and hence the which I am required to manage the money, there are Chief commissioned this resilience review so that we very limited carry-forwards, there are no strategic can prepare and start to plan for the next reserves and there is no borrowing, which I had in comprehensive spending review period and get other places when I was a Chief Constable. So we are ourselves on the front foot as far as recruitment is very inflexible in the way in which we can manage concerned to make sure we are prepared for the our budget. We were able to negotiate, for the first challenges, not just in 2013 but also beyond, because time, four-year planning. That may sound quite there are challenges in 2016 as well. So we are normal for most people, but for us that was a breath preparing for that. We will be presenting that to the of fresh air. So in relation to the money, it is not Policing Board at the end of the month and looking simply the amount of money; it is the fact that the for the Department of Justice’s support in bidding for way we manage it is quite inflexible. the additional funding that the Chief Constable Thirdly, we currently look both to the Treasury and to referred to to become more stable and mainstream so the devolved regime, and that itself is quite that we can plan further ahead. complicated in terms of making sure we get the amount we need. Q18 David Simpson: Judith, can I come in just on another question? I have asked the Chairman, because Q19 Ian Paisley: Can I just get a wee bit of clarity I have to leave early, and he has allowed me to come on all of this? The Police Federation say, “We need a in. When we talk about resourcing, you talk about the thousand more officers.” I know from the Service, the fact that we are coming in to the parade season again Policing Board, that it would be lovely to have that, in the next number of weeks, so there is going to be but the prospect of having the money to do that is added pressure there. You also have the G8, which is probably completely unrealistic. But I would love to now coming into Northern Ireland. Where are you have it. Where realistically do you think we need to going to get the resources for all of that? Are you be in terms of more numbers, because I think, looking going to have to bring police officers in from the at it as an observer, 7,000 is not sufficient. mainland here? How are you going to cope with all Matt Baggott: of that? If you are finding it hard at the minute to cope The Deputy might want to say a few with the issues—and we hope it does not continue but words about this because, on my behalf, she chairs we are getting into the parading season again and the our committee that looks at our efficiency plans. We mad months are coming up—how are you going to have worked very hard to make sure that we are not cope with the G8? tied up in bureaucracy and we do not have colleagues Matt Baggott: Well the G8 is a stand-alone, and it doing things that are unnecessary. We put nearly 700 will be a success and it will be an enormous police officers back on the streets in the last three endorsement of Northern Ireland, and I am absolutely years. That was not without difficulty because it meant convinced of that. But we will be using resources a significant challenge by us to the way the criminal from across the United Kingdom to do that, bringing justice system operates, but we managed to do that. over colleagues for a period of time to help us with We also had that great piece of work before I arrived the security, as anywhere else would do with such a called a strategic review, and negotiated a move from giant event they had to manage. So we will be looking having to have 7,500 rigid numbers of police. The outside. It is not something that I would wish to do as inability to invest in admin staff meant that police a matter of course, because I think that in itself raises officers were doing jobs that should have been done tensions and has huge implications for Northern by civilians. I think that was won in September and Ireland. The original Patten agreement, I think, was we came off that rigid number. The comparison I that the PSNI would be resourced sufficiently to make is with asking a supermarket chain to run with consume its own problems because of the difficulty a fixed number of checkout assistants or managers, and the logistics and simply the controversy around when in fact what you need is to look at the need of that. the business and decide. So it has been quite helpful There are three issues around financing. One is the to do that. pressures that the Deputy just outlined, including the The other problem we have is that modernisation itself continual threat from dissidents. In December alone is complicated but also controversial. I have just spent we had an under-car booby trap attack on a young nine hours in front of the Northern Ireland Public family. It would have been utterly horrific had that Accounts Committee justifying our use of temporary been successful. We have arrested people for staff and the limited rehiring of former police officers. Ev 8 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE
Q20 Ian Paisley: It is totally ridiculous, in my view, force model made up not just of fully trained police that you are hauled over the coals for that. Who you officers but also of police staff, managed services, employ in those circumstances is entirely your temporary workers and part-time police officers. business, and you have done it legally. I just think There are many posts that in the past would have had they are making politics out of it, quite frankly. to be staffed by police officers that are now staffed by Matt Baggott: I need to be held accountable for how other parts of that model, whether it be civilianised to I spend the money. police staff, outsourced to managed services, or by Ian Paisley: I do not expect you to comment on that, temporary workers. It is also important to say that 10 but it is ridiculous. The way your top team have been years ago our sickness levels were much, much higher treated by the Accounts and the Policing Board is a than they are today. My interest is in getting the disgrace to the public. maximum we can out of the police officers we David Simpson: Absolutely. currently have, making sure that all—or as many as we can manage—are actually working on operational Q21 Ian Paisley: Those officers and people who police functions, rather than back-office or middle- were brought in were brought in legally and lawfully. office functions. That is why we have engaged a group They did an excellent job and we should be proud of of highly experienced consultants to advise us on our them. To categorise them in the way they have been efficiency plan. categorised is a disgrace. But Chief, cut to the chase There are 15 projects being taken forward. I am sure here: how many more officers do you need? If we can you do not want the details of those right now, but get you more money from Treasury, what can you some of them will release capacity by releasing police spend it on in terms of manpower? officers who are currently engaged in bureaucracy and Chair: In addition to the point that has been raised, back-office-type functions to be deployed in frontline Naomi, could you bring your bit in now? policing duties. So it is important to talk not just about Naomi Long: Yes, it ties in. David had asked a numbers of police officers but about the amount of question about the impact of the G8 on resource. The time police officers spend on patrol, the amount of other aspect of this is the City of Culture, which we time they are released from bureaucracy, and our have already referenced. There was a concern over a overall capability and capacity. As I say, at the long period that dissident republicans would try to moment we have a strength of just over 7,000 police disrupt that. At the opening event there was an attempt officers. Actually, the vast majority of those police by loyalist protestors to try to disrupt it, which creates officers are engaged in operational value-added work, a potentially even more volatile situation. How will rather than back-office bureaucratic functions, which that impact on the demands on your resource and how one could not say was always the case in the past. will you police what are now, essentially, two different Matt Baggott: I will say this, though, in answer to Mr strands of threat against that event? Paisley’s question: I do believe that we need more Matt Baggott: To summarise the point I am making, police officers in spite of that work. We will factor we would value more flexibility in the way we use that in because to ask for more money in the middle our resources, even now. We also have a judicial of a recession, with others also wanting that at the challenge to our use of managed services. Even the same time, we have to justify every single post. But I outsourcing is subject to thorough legal challenge. So do think, at the moment and looking forward over the the modernisation of the organisation is going through next two or three years and judging that against the a series of stages. We are, in effect, the business of way in which we have seen the last six months unfold, policing, and I do not want to spend money on it is inevitable that we will need to have more police administrative processes and support staff when that officers. can be done cheaper and liberate police officers for Ian Paisley: I think you will get public support if you the front line. There is a process at the moment, being make that call. run through the Deputy, of looking at whether we can modernise even further and get even more police Q22 Dr McDonnell: Thank you, Chief Constable, officers out. I know she can brief you on that. for being here. I appreciate all your information so far In terms of numbers, I am not going to give a number and I would compliment the efforts your people have here because I think it would pre-empt the Resilience made in trying to control the situation. We are fully Review. I think we have to look forward to the next aware of how difficult it is. I would like to focus for three years of events on events on events, as the a minute on the status of loyalist paramilitaries. Is the Deputy said, the relentless pressure that is going to UDA illegal? Is the UVF illegal? apply to us and the potential for disorder, and the Drew Harris: Yes current trajectory of the dissident republican threat, Dr McDonnell: They are? and potentially what that means for us and whether Drew Harris: Very much so, yes. we are sufficiently resilient. At the end of that we will come forward with a number that we think is Q23 Dr McDonnell: What do they have to do to appropriate, but I am not going to put a number on it break their ceasefire? at the moment because it would be wrong to do so. Drew Harris: In some ways that is a political Judith Gillespie: I think it is really important that, judgment that we are being asked to comment upon, while we apply our professional judgment as to what in terms of terrorist acts and other criminality we can the bottom line of sworn police officers that we need ascribe to those organisations. In respect of UDA, they is, we talk about overall capability. We have a work have not been involved in these protests in any shape Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 9
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE or form. They have set their face against them. South apply. There is some mythology, for example, about East Antrim UDA, which is a separate body now, have differential policing. I have to say that the figures from been involved in the protest and disorder. The UVF, last year show significantly more loyalists arrested particularly East Belfast UVF, very clearly have been than those from the nationalist-republican side. That involved in the protest and disorder. in itself is dangerous, because people then interpret those figures in a certain way. Actually the evidence Q24 Dr McDonnell: Does the effort by the number does not lend itself to a degree of differential policing. two in the UVF in East Belfast, putting a petrol bomb The area where there needs to be some consideration in a policewoman’s car, not come close to some sort is in relation to breaches of parade determinations or of act of violence? illegal parades. Now we have had day after day and Drew Harris: Undoubtedly that was a criminal act, month after month of potential breaches since August, but we would not be making such clear attribution. there is a question the Public Prosecution Service are That still is a crime under investigation. being asked to look at, which is: are you satisfied with the totality of your decisions around the public interest Q25 Dr McDonnell: Have there been meetings test? That is not for me to decide; that is a matter for between the UVF and the police? the Public Prosecution Service. In relation to the last Drew Harris: Not to my knowledge, no. 12 months, when prosecutorial decisions may have Dr McDonnell: I understand there have been been made at the beginning of last year and now we meetings with individuals. have had six months of mass protests, I think it is Matt Baggott: I have had a number of meetings with right that that public interest test gets revisited. But faith leaders, political representatives and community that is a matter for the Director himself. So I am very representatives, but I have not had direct meetings mindful of this concern, but we will continue to police with the UVF. this summer with exactly the same decision-making model as we applied last year and the year before. Q26 Dr McDonnell: I know the difficulties and I Then we will have to justify that. fully sympathise with the difficulties, but there are deep concerns out there in the community that this is Q27 Dr McDonnell: Just doubling back on the UVF almost in some ways setting space for dissident stuff: would it be helpful if the UVF were specified activity, either in reprisal or with some excuse, on under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act? another occasion. That brings me on to another point. Drew Harris: We have done analysis of who would How is this going to play out with parading in the be subject to, in effect, recall against who is actually summer? There is a deep sense that there has been a involved in the disorder. It would have no impact in differential approach taken to policing, and you have terms of who we think is orchestrating and getting discussed the reasons why: the sheer volume of involved in disorder and who would be immediately roadblocks, and one thing and another. There is a affected. I just want to assure the Committee that all sense, as Naomi mentioned, that dissidents around of their crime remains under very active investigation. Ardoyne are drawing a lot of comfort from the present We are obviously concentrating on their drugs crime, situation and they will be hoping for similar leniency but the other crime they get involved in—blackmail, and less zealous treatment than in the past. The sense extortion, robbery and all of those things—remain from the community at large is that there needs to be investigative priorities and have been for the last 18 a not overzealous but perhaps slightly zealous months since the disorder in early 2011, particularly approach to this sort of activity, whether it is coming in terms of East Belfast UVF. They do remain a prime from UVF, dissidents or wherever. Where do you see investigative target and we have had success in terms it playing out in terms of the differential argument? of charging individuals. Matt Baggott: Thanks for that. First, I think that is something that is a very real risk, if only in relation Q28 Dr McDonnell: So do you feel that specification to the perception of unfairness. The decision we reach would not help? Basically, are the people out on on every occasion, as I said earlier, starts with the release licence not on your radar? article 2 consideration of the protection of life and Drew Harris: We have been through all of our records property. They are the same decision-making criteria. in respect of this and have done a comparison. The So, for example, in relation to the sit-down protest in same group do not merge across. Ardoyne the year before last, with a major parade coming down with significant disorder taking place, it Q29 Dr McDonnell: We have discussed this already, would have been utterly remiss of that local but are we comfortable that there will not be a knock- commander not to have taken those people off that on effect to parading during the summer? street. It would have led to an enormous risk to life, Matt Baggott: I am not comfortable. I think the whole and not just life but serious injury as well. issue of the status of and respect for the Parades We are going to have to work hard at dealing with Commission is, by itself, an issue. If we cannot deal perceptions that then become people’s realities. I am with the perceptions of unfairness, that is an issue. I very mindful of that because that in itself is will give you an example of where we have been dangerous. To reassure people, the decision making utterly impartial. At last year’s parade, which came we follow always starts with the risks to life and down past Ardoyne, for the first time there was also serious injury. Then, if necessary, we follow up with authority given for a parade to come out of Ardoyne, a justice strategy after that. That is the model we run by GARC. In the middle of a riot, once we had Ev 10 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE moved a burning car out of the way, we actually might think, have taken a decision that is trying to find facilitated that parade coming out of Ardoyne. I have a compromise situation in a very delicate scenario. to say that is incredibly professional, impartial Effectively it sounds to me that what you are talking policing. In the middle of such a threat to officers, about is a containment strategy, but how long can that they actually facilitated a lawful determination, in a go on? way that was incredibly difficult. We do need to put Matt Baggott: I will come back to that first point out evidence of how the PSNI is acting impartially— again. The first criterion for us every time is the not only the figures, but that by itself—as an example protection of life. That requires judgments that look of being prepared to take some very firm risks in order back into history in relation to the implications of an to facilitate the right to parade, which took place last overzealous policing. Secondly, if we were to decide summer. to sweep people off the road but we knew there were going to be major outbreaks of disorder that evening, Q30 Dr McDonnell: I just want to follow up on an what would we have left to deal with it? So that is an earlier point about the causes and the underlying operational judgment made on the day itself, and also causes, the marginalisation, poverty and one thing and we have criteria in our policy about protection of another. Could you just clarify for Members— interface areas, protection of arterial routes, and particularly Members who are not as familiar as you protection of areas like hospitals, so there is a or I might be—why we are getting these riots in East Belfast but not in the Shankill or the Shore Road or gradation on that as well, and every day we review Belvoir Park or Taughmonagh, where I would suggest that. We call it our gold strategy; we look at the there is equally severe deprivation? Is it just purely numbers and we try to do that. UVF? But let me make it clear: we are not tolerating Drew Harris: I think a factor in East Belfast is around breaches of the law, but our overriding duty has to be the UVF there, and it is as simply put as that. the protection of life. I said to the media yesterday, “I Similarly a factor in Carrickfergus has been South would rather be accused in the short term of not being East Antrim UDA. firm enough than condemned in the long term for significant loss of life or serious injury because the Q31 Dr McDonnell: Chair, just one very quick point. policing was overzealous and rather clumsy.” These Naomi mentioned it already, but Derry is difficult on are very complex areas, but actually we do give a Sunday. Can we control it? considerable amount of thought every day, if not every Matt Baggott: Well, we will control it is the answer hour, to the implications of what we are doing, to that. It does not mean to say, of course, that, like including resourcing levels. everything, you do not have some disorder, but we I do not believe it would be possible to police what, will have sufficient resources on and sufficient in effect, on some nights have been 4,000 to 5,000 planning to manage that. people on the roads. I do not think you could do that Dr McDonnell: Chairman, for Members’ sake, there even if you had the resources the Met put out on the is a Bloody Sunday commemoration and it is expected fifth day, which was 16,000 people, to deal with the or anticipated to be largely dissidents because Sinn disturbances in London. They came not just from the Fein and the families have peeled away from any Met but from surrounding forces as well. So I have to protest. At the same time there is a flags take into account the realities of tension, the realities demonstration nearby. It is quite frightening. of the intelligence picture and, to be frank, make some Chair: Thank you. Thanks very much. pragmatic judgments on where and how we deploy our resources. Q32 Mr Anderson: Mr Baggott, the discussions we I think the strategy is working. It has taken a while, are having today come from a group of people who but we have given time for people to come together are committed to giving you all the support we can, in conversations about what this is about, what our and I think that one of the great successes that we grievances are, and I think we have given space for have seen in many years of being involved with this the politics to reassert itself. But it is still very fragile is the confidence that is in the PSNI—the completely and it is still very early days, so I do not think a law different feeling there is around policing compared enforcement approach would have resolved this by with what a lot of us had to grow up with. If we sound like we are critical, it is partly because we should be itself. What I do have is 70 detectives headed by a critical of ourselves as politicians, because you are very experienced detective superintendent. Already where you are now because of our combined failure over 170 arrests have been made and significant to move the police forward better than we have done. numbers charged. Special courts have been set up to So I just thought I would put that down for the record. process those people quickly and already people are I am struggling with what the strategy is at the being remanded in custody for the serious violence. moment. You have said that if you tackled too hard That investigation will run for many months now. and went in harder and tried to clear the streets, you Sadly it will tie up significant amounts of resources might end up with a situation where even more people that could have been dealing with drug dealing, but come on the streets, so to some extent you are being you can be assured that those people who have held to ransom by the fear of making the thing worse. brought serious violence to the streets will face the At the other end, you have got the democratic decision due process of law in due course. So it is not justice of the people on the council, who, whatever people denied; it is justice delayed. Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 11
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE
Q33 Mr Anderson: You made the point, and I am district commanders and I have excellent police very clear about it, that we should not make the link officers, who day after day, night after night, have with London by any means, but the one link I will been putting themselves in the front line at some make, if you do not mind, is that the introduction of personal cost on behalf of the greater good of those 16,000 police actually stopped that happening. I Northern Ireland, and that is a remarkable exercise in know it is a very different scenario and I am not exceptional courage. suggesting you should do that by any means, but In the last two weeks, I have had a number of without that action, how long do you see this delegations of people coming to see me, and they are continuing? very well meaning and they want to resolve the Matt Baggott: There are signs at the moment of problems. On the left, we get accused of being brutal people coming together to look at this whole mass and exacerbating the problem through an arrest protest and try to make it a bit more rational. Whether strategy; and on the right, I get accused of being too that involves set days, whether it involves different soft. On the basis of that, we are probably in the right forms of protest, whether it involves things through place, which means we are being reasonable. the political process, there is a huge amount of I do not use weasel words, but the truth is we operate conversation taking place at the moment. I will come in a democratic framework with due process of law, back to the point that, although it has been prolonged and there is a difference between intelligence and and very difficult, at this moment nobody has been information and the reasonable suspicion to arrest in seriously hurt and that in itself is something I am very order to bring a charge that will be sustained for the grateful for. Although we have had a lot of police Public Prosecution Service. Ultimately, the decisions officers injured, the serious injury side of it has been about whether to prosecute or not are not ours; our contained. The serious violence has been contained to job is simply to present facts and then for the Public a limited number of areas, and that by itself is a Prosecution Service to reach the evidential test. To be success of the policing tactics and the approach. frank, I am still not sure that is understood. I think I am not going to give a timescale. I would like to, people still have a view in Northern Ireland that the David, but I cannot say anything other than we have police are somehow the investigators, the Public just got to give sensible voices and the political Prosecution Service and courts all wrapped up into process an opportunity to work by not making it worse one. I am very clear that our role is to investigate and and demonstrating to the public that we do mean present facts. It is for others to make the judgments business when it comes to justice. about that. I respect people’s right to comment. I know it is a Q34 Lady Hermon: It is, of course, a delight to see great thing that you have commentators writing all of you here this morning to give us evidence on opinion pieces day in, day out. Sometimes you have what is a very serious subject indeed. I wonder if I to take it with a pinch of salt; sometimes you have a could just pick up on a number of points. Following different view. But maybe that is a sign of a growing on from what you have just said about things democracy actually working, so we have to accept happening, could you just reflect on the many people that. Forgive me, what was the second question? who have commented on the lack of leadership within loyalist communities? I would add to that to give you Q35 Lady Hermon: It was about leadership within the right to reply to what was a very unfortunate and the loyalist community and even of loyalist scathing article in yesterday’s Irish News. Let me just organisations. Has that been a difficulty? preface this by saying this is hard to do. Referring to Matt Baggott: Could I ask the Deputy? I think it is you, apparently, it said, “The Chief Constable, using fractured. I would value the Deputy speaking on this hair-splitting weasel words”—that is hard to do in one. anybody’s terms; I cannot believe you could even do Judith Gillespie: I think it has been very, very this—“has said that UVF members ‘as individuals’ complex. Drew has already mentioned the role of have been organising on the streets.” The suggestion social media and how it is pretty easy to organise is, in fact, that you have specifically chosen these hair- groups of people to come out onto the street to protest, splitting weasel words in order to avoid the UVF and then, once they are out on the street, they are being specified. Thank you very much indeed; now difficult to control. It is very difficult for us to identify you can see a copy of the particular article. I would those who are responsible for co-ordinating and like you to have a right of reply. I think it was a most coalescing those groups together, because people can unfortunate article myself, but I would like you to be very careful as to what they say on social media, have a right of reply. Please also reflect on the many as Drew has already said. They can use pseudonyms people who have commented on the lack of leadership and false identifications. It is very difficult to put your within the loyalist community and how difficult that finger on who is responsible for leading the disorder has made your task. and finding some way of opening a door to negotiate Matt Baggott: If I start with the article first of all and with them about what their grievances are, or at least separate it from myself personally, I think it is a huge for the police to find and create the space for others privilege to be the Chief Constable of the PSNI and I to negotiate about what the grievances are. It has to have the most experienced team around me that I be said that on both sides last Saturday, there was could possibly ask for, one of huge integrity, leadership shown to achieve a relatively peaceful professionalism, and great judgment based on history, outcome on both sides of the continuum and on both and I say that for the record. I also have excellent sides of the interface, in particular at Short Strand. Ev 12 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE
There was leadership shown, and if it can be shown Drew Harris: Well there is an aspiration to try to on that day, then surely it ought to be shown going move onto a more political footing, and there may be forward. some developments this year in respect of that, in terms of either Éirígí or the Republican Network for Q36 Lady Hermon: Can I just ask how much this Unity; they may try to move to a more political has cost you out of your budget? footing as a political party. They may field candidates Matt Baggott: It cost over £7 million to December, as part of their overall strategic view, both in terms of which is the opportunity cost of police officers not having a political front but also then a terrorist doing their duties but being re-deployed, and cash campaign. cost, which is a significant amount of overtime, as the Deputy said earlier, for officers away from their Q39 Nigel Mills: The second question I have is: are families. Clearly there is a financial bonus for that, your resources hampered by the fact that I think it but it is outweighed dramatically by the sheer amount is your job now to go back through all the historic of time people are spending away from their families investigations rather than the people who were doing and the long hours they are working, and the risk of it before? Is that a resource drain for you or is that injury at this moment in time. something you can cope with comfortably? Drew Harris: The HET is conducting reviews of all Q37 Nigel Mills: Do you think that dissident the troubles-related murders from 1969 through to the paramilitaries are still engaging in their old 1998 Good Friday Agreement; there are well over campaigns, or do you think they are primarily criminal 3,000 murders and deaths to investigate. Where they groups now who are perhaps using political things believe there is an investigative line of inquiry to be more as a cover for criminality rather than actually followed, that is then referred over to the Serious being openly criminal? Crime Branch, which I am responsible for. There have Matt Baggott: Mr Harris can give you more detail, been 39 such referrals and there have been convictions but in terms of the current threat from dissident as well. There has been a case that has just gone republicans and the groupings they go under the through the courts and finished on Friday. We are banner of, they are utterly, utterly dedicated to awaiting a verdict. But it is a drain. It takes up breaking the peace process, and their relentless probably half of our overall serious crime effort at any targeting of police officers has continued apace. So one time, and so it is a question of prioritising the work. Where there are serious terrorist incidents, they this is not just a criminal grouping. These are have to take priority, or where there is ongoing threat dedicated, professional, ruthless terrorists. from an individual involved in a murder, then Drew Harris: They have been involved in organised obviously that must get the investigative effort, and crime and do engage in all forms of organised crime, so it is a question of prioritisation of the work that but they recognise it as a weakness. They recognise there is. the successes that we and An Garda Síochána have had in respect of combating particularly the cigarette Q40 Nigel Mills: Maybe I am misremembering, but smuggling and fuel frauds that they have been I thought the HET funding was going, or that engaged in, and this has been a significant portion of responsibility was being transferred back to you. our work to try to diminish the threat. So, they have Judith Gillespie: We have made a business case to the moved away from that in terms of trying to make sure Department of Justice to extend the funding of the that weakness is closed down. Historical Enquiries Team to allow them to complete Really the most serious threats now come from this their ongoing work, of which they are roughly two- new IRA grouping, which is a combination of thirds of the way through. But I think the short answer previous fractured groups and ONH. Last October and to your question is yes, of course, it is a drain on our November there was the murder of Daniel McKay in resources, and the concern is that threats and harms Belfast and then also the murder of the prison officer and risks today become legacy issues in the future David Black. But there have also been two attempted because we have spent a lot of resources and time murders—the police officer, the attempt on his life in focusing on things that happened many years ago. December, and also the attempt on the life of a But it is also important to say that this is right at the member of the armed services in November, as well centre of public confidence in many communities, and as the two explosively formed projectiles, one people want answers as to what happened to their recovered in Londonderry and the other in the loved ones—people on both sides of the political Ardoyne. So all of that was in the autumn and all of continuum. It is really important that we work hard that has been very concerning and has required a huge within the existing legislative framework around investigative effort on our part. With the David Black public inquiries, coroners’ inquests, the Historical murder, between us and the guards, two people have Enquiries Team, and police ombudsman historical been charged. inquests. Sometimes the Criminal Cases Review Commission becomes involved in cases as well. That Q38 Nigel Mills: But do you think these things are puts a significant drain on our resources. We have put just to raise funds for political views, whether we some figures on that, which we recently presented to think they are political or not, rather than just being the Policing Board. Roughly, per annum, around £24 part of a criminal gang or criminality? You think they million is spent on policing the past, but there is no are actually still fighting a campaign? other way at the moment. We all understand the link Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 13
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE with public confidence. If the past is not properly dealt no more than a flag of convenience—in fact a flag of with, it touches on the present and the future. protection. It also has to be borne in mind that Matt Baggott: Chair, can I also cover off a point that dissident republicans draw a levy on various other goes back to perceptions? The Historical Enquiries criminal gangs, particularly in respect of drug dealing, Team is impartial. They do two jobs for us. One is and so it is very difficult to put any figures on this. that they bring clarity to victims’ families as far as Terrorism does require a lot of money to function and they can as to what happened all those years ago. The to continue, and so obviously it is very important to success rate for that is very high indeed, and people our work overall around organised crime, because it are in the main very grateful for that work. But they is, in effect, a public safety issue in its very widest are also a cold case review team, so if they find sense that we clamp down on as hard as we can. evidential opportunities, even after all this time, they come to Drew’s colleagues in our Serious Crime Q44 Ian Paisley: I assume you would welcome any Branch. The number of referrals to date is pretty progress that is made with regard to a more efficient balanced between loyalist and nationalist-republican and effective marker in fuels. communities. In fact there are twice as many at the Drew Harris: The laundering of fuels is a huge moment from the nationalist-republican referrals than money-spinner for organised crime groups, and there are from loyalists. There is a mythology out whatever can be done as technology moves forward there that this is somehow biased against loyalist to make that more difficult would be very important. communities. It is not in any shape or form, and the On the laundering of fuels, just looking at the statistics evidence does not show that. last year, we assisted HMRC in some 83 searches. We Chair: We are running over time now so I think we are very active with them in terms of sharing will need to speed up a little bit. intelligence around the organised crime groups, and if any information comes in that we think would be of Q41 Mr Anderson: I will try to be quick, Chairman. assistance to them, we obviously hand it over. There are obviously a number of issues around public Chair: Nigel, part of this touches on the issue about order. Of particular concern are death threats against HMRC and PSNI. MPs and MLAs. We heard from the minister from Nigel Mills: Oh yes, I have probably asked this Westminster last week about the fact that you have question a few times. got public order issues and then national security Chair: Do you want to come in on it again or are issues. Are you clear and are you happy with the way you okay? that differentiation is working on the ground? Drew Harris: Yes indeed. We work very closely with Q45 Nigel Mills: The question we have touched on the security service in terms of sharing intelligence. a few times is how well HMRC and PSNI work All the crime and investigative effort is ours, and the together on tackling smuggling and laundering and security services give us every assistance in terms of stuff. I think I have asked before whether it might be their resources, particularly around the serious threats better for the PSNI to have lead responsibility, given that have been made against elected representatives the links of that to paramilitary organisations and from all the parties. We take those very seriously. various things, and I have been pretty strongly They are a crime and are subject to investigation. The rebuffed: “No, it is HMRC who have the expertise.” security service offers and will give every assistance. Is that the view you would still share? Drew Harris: Each agency has different powers and Q42 Mr Anderson: Can I just ask you, Drew, is this different responsibilities. The main thrust around this actually written down anywhere or is it just a general is actually the productive collaboration, and that understanding between people? includes not just us and HMRC but also SOCA. We Drew Harris: It is guided, firstly, by Annex E of the meet together monthly and we go through the St Andrew’s Agreement in terms of our access to organised crime groups and the various terrorist information, and then secondly by memoranda of groups, and we decide on the task and process, and understanding between us and the security service that involves HMRC and SOCA. There are around the sharing of intelligence. But obviously the arrangements for the daily sharing of intelligence as Police Service has the prime responsibility for the needed, but it is very frequent. We share planning of investigation of crime, and all of these are crimes. operations. In effect, we divvy up the targets to make sure that we have the best law enforcement effect and Q43 Ian Paisley: We have been doing an inquiry, as decide which organisation is best placed to lead on you know, into fuel laundering and fuel smuggling. an investigation. Do you have any estimate of how much of the Matt Baggott: The only concern I have, and we do proceeds from fuel laundering and fuel smuggling go fabulous work with them, and I respect their powers directly to finance dissident republican and loyalist and we need their powers, is that sometimes the things organisations, and how much goes to fund what are they do are—how can I put it?—below the radar and euphemistically called ordinary criminal gangs? Is it dealt with confidentially through a taxation route. That possible to do that? makes it quite difficult for us sometimes when we Drew Harris: That is very difficult. Even those groups have significant amounts of money taken from who we would identify as being fundraising for individuals who clearly have been involved in dissident republican groups siphon off a lot for their organised crime, but that is a route they have gone own purposes, and so for some of these people it is down. It does dismantle and it does help to disrupt it, Ev 14 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE but it never becomes a matter of overt public record, Within the United Kingdom and within the islands, and therefore it is confidential with respect to the some trafficking has been more of what is known as individuals who have had—how can I put it?—a the lover boy technique—if I can put it that way— punitive consequence of their activity. I do think that where a vulnerable female is befriended and then sometimes causes some difficulty because a person’s brought into an ever-evolving situation of sexual reputation remains high when actually their activities abuse and violence, and the threat of violence. Last have been potentially wrong. year we rescued seven females in that respect, so it is not just trafficking from other parts of the world; this Q46 Nigel Mills: But you are happy that, in terms of is trafficking as well, and it happens within the United catching people and dismantling this and stopping it, Kingdom and our islands. So we are very alive to that this is as effective as it could be, and you are not problem as well. sitting there and thinking, “If only they would give us the budget, we could do this far better”? Q48 Ian Paisley: If a person arrives in the Republic Drew Harris: HMRC have alternative powers, which of Ireland with a bogus story and they get through are very useful, and we see businesses being formed customs there and then travel to Northern Ireland, as fronts for both terrorist groups and organised crime travelling to Northern Ireland probably is not a groups. Of course, the huge array of powers they have problem for them. In travelling out of Northern around tax and value added tax are all powers that Ireland to GB, are they able to use flights without HMRC are best placed to administer. It gives a being stopped or do they use the boats? What is their completely different route into a criminal enterprise. preferred means of then trafficking from Northern But there are other agencies as well; it just depends Ireland beyond our shore? on the scenario. But we do have a good working Drew Harris: The two routes are flights or use the relationship with them, and it is a daily operational boat, but on flights there are stringent checks around relationship. Because of our jurisdiction and the size identification and security; however, flights are of it, and the fact that in lots of ways personalities attempted and we have done work with the UK Border within the various agencies stay pretty much fixed, we Agency. We have officers at the airports and we have undertaken more work with the ports in particular, and have good personal and professional relationships again with the UK Border Agency, briefing up the with them. We have all shared information with each various providers of transportation, both ferry other to the benefit of the recipient without being companies and the airlines, on what to look for. Quite selfish or looking to our own organisation first. often it will be a single female with another more dominant female and a male. We have videos of it Q47 Ian Paisley: Could you give us an update with happening and it is quite distinctive when you look at regard to the current situation on human trafficking in it. It is unnatural and it catches people’s eye, and we Northern Ireland and whether it is continuing to be a have put a lot of effort in trying to raise that growing problem or whether it has plateaued? In your awareness, but we are very mindful that we have in answer could you maybe indicate to us where people effect a porous land border—pretty much a rural land are ostensibly being trafficked from into Northern border. Even if you do not take the bus or use a car, Ireland and what are the links then in terms of it is easy to get from Dublin to Belfast. trafficking via the Republic or via GB? Drew Harris: The first real detection of human Q49 Ian Paisley: That to me is not the problem. trafficking in Northern Ireland was with Operation There seems to be a breakdown if they are able to Pentameter 2. That was the first time that we had leave our shore by flight. I would have thought that rescued individuals from human trafficking. In 2010, should be incredibly difficult, given the identity 21 victims were rescued; in 2011, 23; last year, 33, so checks that are now run. it continues to steadily climb. The highest proportion Drew Harris: It has to be said a proportion are is subject to sexual exploitation, some 70%, and the smuggled, and they are smuggled very considerable largest ethnic grouping is Chinese, which would form distances. So they evade all of those checks as well. some 35%. The routes into Northern Ireland and Where we can, we do intervene, and there is indeed on to the island of Ireland are varied, but it has awareness around that. We have done a lot around to be recognised that we have the only UK land that, but it is not to say that we could catch every one border, and that does in some way facilitate human of those. trafficking, because people can arrive in Dublin with a bogus story and it is very easy then to bring them Q50 Ian Paisley: And the level of paramilitary into Northern Ireland and hence into Great Britain as involvement? well. So we are very mindful of that, and we work Drew Harris: Really minimal. Prostitution does closely with our colleagues in the UK Border Agency involve organised crime groups, often human and in An Garda Síochána. We have done a lot of trafficking organised crime groups, but they need to training around ports officers, around looking for the have an international sphere to manage the series of signs. We ourselves have undertaken a very wide movements of an individual, either by force or by training package for all of our patrol officers, and trick or subterfuge, in terms of creating the whole some 3,500 officers have been trained to spot the signs legend of the life an individual can be promised when of human trafficking and the various signs and things they arrive in Northern Ireland. There will be to look out for whenever dealing with a situation. brochures from colleges of education, or pictures of a Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 15
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE restaurant: “This is where you will work in the In respect of drugs, undoubtedly cannabis remains our evening; this is the college that you will go to; these biggest drug and the drug of choice. It is a very are the types of flats that you will be living in.” That different problem in Northern Ireland compared with whole legend has to be created to dupe someone. That the Republic or GB, but other drugs are abused as is not really something that our own paramilitary well. I think now a good deal of cannabis is actually groups can manage; it does require that international grown within Northern Ireland. We have seen reach, which is beyond them. But secondly, we have increasing globalisation—if I can use that had people brought in, particularly from the Far East, expression—in the provision of drugs, and effectively as gardeners in the cannabis farms, and who have been trafficked the whole route, in effect particularly gangs from the Far East getting involved smuggled, and then work, in effect, in a property as a in the farming of cannabis. gardener to a cannabis farm. Chair: Thank you. The very last question, Dave Chair: We are running way over time now. Two final, Anderson. quick questions, if I may. Q53 Mr Anderson: It has been flagged up this week Q51 Lady Hermon: I think there is a hint there. As that the Home Secretary is considering allowing a matter of curiosity, could I just ask whether you foreign police officers to apply for position of Chief miss the work and the input and the oversight and Constable in the UK. That was described by your supervision of the Independent Monitoring predecessor, Mr Baggott, as an idea that is “quite Commission? From my perspective, they focused on simply stupid”. Would you like to comment on these the illegal paramilitary activities of fuel laundering, reports? Do you think if it does come about there will cigarette smuggling, human trafficking, organised be specific issues for the PSNI? What do you think crime. In the report that was tabled before Parliament twice a year or at least twice a year, there was an about your predecessor’s comments? overview of what loyalist paramilitaries were doing Matt Baggott: I think that the public deserve the very and republican paramilitaries were doing. Now it has best police leadership, and that is about experience, gone and we have to bring you here and ask you what it is about skills, it is about competence, it is about in fact you think they are doing about fuel laundering, professional judgment, and therefore I have no and my question is: what do you think they are doing problems at all with people competing from wherever about the smuggling of tobacco and drugs? Is it they are if they can do the very best for the public. I criminal gangs? Is it paramilitaries? Is there an have absolute confidence that the police service in the overlap? Do you miss the IMC? United Kingdom is the finest in the world. Not only Matt Baggott: I think the benefit of the IMC comes do we manage huge amounts of money successfully, back to the point about perception—that if we are we manage a huge breadth of policing from public speaking out against this or perhaps ministers are, protection, through to terrorism, through to personal there is always a perception of “well, you would say policing, through to response policing. I think we have that”, or it is subject to misinterpretation. I think the the most experienced cadre of senior colleagues you benefit of the IMC was that it was an authoritative could find. I am not afraid of competition and I do not voice made up of independent people and that, in relation to how people perceived things, gave it an think my colleagues are, provided the processes that enormous strength. actually come to assess their competence and appointment are robust and independent. It is not just Q52 Lady Hermon: Thank you. I miss it, I certainly about the openness of candidature but about the do. Can I just ask you about the organised crime processes that need to be followed. The Deputy has gangs? How many do you think we have in Northern some insight on this from Patten that I think would Ireland and is there a significant overlap of loyalist be helpful. paramilitaries on the one hand and republican Judith Gillespie: This was a specific recommendation paramilitaries, and, indeed, republican and loyalist in the Patten Report, so it is not a particularly new paramilitaries co-operating with one another to idea. In fact in 2001–02, chief officer posts in the smuggle drugs and tobacco? Police Service of Northern Ireland were advertised Drew Harris: The figure for organised crime groups internationally, and a number of applicants applied but fluctuates between 80 or 90, in terms of organised did not get past the Senior Police National Assessment crime groups that we would specifically target. They Centre standard. So the precedent was set. We are involved in a wide range of criminal activity and welcome the competition but none of them got there is a group involved in cigarette smuggling, but through Senior PNAC. their job description is to make money illegally, and so they go where the profits are the best. So they do Matt Baggott: Drew just reminded me that I got move between commodities and crime types. We have allowed into the PSNI offices. had a lot of success around, for instance, cash-in- Mr Anderson: I deliberately did not mention that. I transit robbery, tiger kidnap, and those sorts of thought that might stray a little bit. incidents. They have moved on into things that are Ian Paisley: I was just trying to add all the 150 years’ regarded as being less risky. The smuggling of experience at the top table; I just was not sure. cigarettes is one of those areas; the laundering of fuel Lady Hermon: Not at the top table. is another. Ev 16 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence
24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE
Chair: They do not look old enough. On that happy weeks, and wish you well for the future? Thank you note, we are way over time. Can I, on behalf of the very much for coming today. It has been a very good Committee, thank you and congratulate you on all the session—very useful. work you have done, especially over the last few
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Terry Spence, QPM, Chairman, and Mark Lindsay, Vice-Chairman, Police Federation for Northern Ireland, gave evidence.
Q54 Chair: We will make a quick start with republican paramilitaries, who are determined to kill apologies for keeping you waiting. You sat in on the police officers, two of whom have already been previous session and I hope you found it as interesting murdered and several injured in attempted murder as certainly we did. Mr Spence, Mr Lindsay, would attacks. In November past, prison officer David Black you like to make any very brief opening statements, was murdered, and Daniel McKay, a Catholic man in please? north Belfast, was also murdered by dissident Terry Spence: I will make it as brief as I can. I would republicans. They are becoming much more like a couple of minutes of your time for a brief sophisticated in their weaponry and their recruitment, opening statement. First of all, our thanks to the and they are also actively involved in enticing young Committee for inviting us here this morning and for people to join their organisation. Over the past few the opportunity to address serious and urgent concerns months, we have had 90 police officers and their regarding policing in Northern Ireland. If I may, I families either forced from their homes or obliged to would like to make a brief statement to set the context have protective measures at their homes as a result of of our purpose here today. All of you are familiar intimidation from paramilitaries from both sides of the faces around this table, but for the record I am Terry community. In addition to this, because of the Spence, Chairman of the Police Federation for downturn in the economy, which hit Northern Ireland Northern Ireland, and I have 36 years’ policing particularly hard, some officers have been left with experience in that part of the United Kingdom. With negative equity problems on top of the personal me is my colleague Mark Lindsay, an officer with 25 turmoil for them and their families. We need more years’ frontline, operational experience, and he is the officers on the ground as a matter of urgency. PFNI vice chairman. We represent the interests of As chairman of the Federation, I have reflected the 7,000 federated ranks of the PSNI, from constable to views of my members with repeated calls for another chief inspector. 1,000 officers to be recruited for frontline duties. I The current issues facing the Police Service of might add that we would not be in this position if the Northern Ireland can be summed up in one word: previous Chief Constable had not taken the regrettable resources. Specifically, we have a very worrying and wholly premature decision to disband 1,200 full- shortage of officers. At the time of the signing of the time reserve constables. It was a decision that seemed Good Friday Agreement, the police service had to please a few politicians but left us with the 13,000 officers and much the same number of military operational vulnerability that we have today. Apart personnel on standby support. Now we have only from a rapid expansion of the PSNI, we need the 7,000 officers and we have no military support and politicians to restore their credibility among their face the prospect of some 1,200 officers likely to retire disaffected constituents. We need the courts to follow over the next two years. Despite the warnings of this the example of the English courts and to severely federation, there has been a headlong dash for punish rioters and, indeed, terrorists. We need to deal normality in Northern Ireland, which has seen a hasty more forcefully with riots using AEPs and water and injudicious run down in the number of police cannon at earlier stages of confrontations, which so officers available for the maintenance of the peace. inevitably escalate into full-scale disorder, and we The Government and local political parties ignored the need parents to face up to their responsibility for the recommendations of the 1999 Patten Report, the key behaviour of their children. During the English riots, one being that the PSNI should be downsized to 7,500 in the summer of 2011, there were 4,000 disclosed officers only when we have an acceptable and offences and 600 officers were used to investigate enduring peace. He defined that peace as the total those. In Northern Ireland, we have had 1,200 disarmament of paramilitaries and an end to public offences disclosed and only 40 officers investigating. order confrontation. This crucial recommendation was We all need to stop behaving as if the problems of ignored in the blind euphoria of the Good Friday Northern Ireland ended with the Belfast Agreement. Agreement. Under the surface, we have a society that is rife with We are currently faced with regular and vicious street sectarianism and political disillusion. The Police disorder, which has left 350 officers injured since the Service is the sticking plaster for that fractured summer. This is an unacceptable rate of attrition. We society, and now the Police Service itself needs to be cannot move forward to the marching season in a few fixed by the provision of more resources. Chairman, I months’ time with any confidence that the violence am happy to take questions. that frequently attends such parades will end soon. We Chair: Thank you very much for those useful still have the severe threat coming from the dissident opening remarks. Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 17
24 January 2013 Terry Spence, QPM and Mark Lindsay
Q55 Kate Hoey: Thank you very much. That was to officers who are facing intimidation and the sort of very helpful. Given that you were listening to the violence we have seen on the streets recently? Chief Constable earlier—I unfortunately missed the Terry Spence: In relation to the recruitment of earliest part—from what you heard and from what you officers, I do not think it will deter young men and know about the Chief Constable, do you feel that there women from Northern Ireland from joining the police is a recognition at the highest level within the Police service. I think it is very clear that, if you look at what Service of Northern Ireland of these issues that you happened previously, there were sufficient numbers are quite rightly putting in front of us this morning? coming forward to do that. When it comes to what is Terry Spence: Yes, I think there is a reality that we available to police officers, I have to be frank and say, do need these additional resources. I think where we when it comes to those who are forced from their perhaps differ is on the numbers required. But homes, regrettably some of them have been treated certainly, we see it as being the case that, to try to quite abysmally under the SPED regulations that keep ourselves afloat, we need at least 1,000 officers. apply. We have found that many of our officers, as I have already alluded to, have suffered the impact of Q56 Kate Hoey: Is there a perception in Northern negative equity in their homes. In one case, an officer Ireland now that the new Police Service, while doing has been suffering the impact of that for over four its best, is hampered by the fact that perhaps there is years, and he is now finding himself in negative equity a higher proportion of less experienced, younger at a rate of over £100,000. These matters need to be officers who have not lived through the very bad times urgently addressed. I am trying to deal with that with and perhaps have come into the police force thinking my colleagues, but certainly when it comes to that they were going to be what would be called on the issue, more could be done. mainland an ordinary British policeman, and then discovering that it is not as simple as that because the Q59 Andrew Percy: More generally, beyond the 90, peace process has not solved some of the underlying in terms of mental health support more generally issues? across the service, is that very good? Are officers who Terry Spence: Undoubtedly some of our young are suffering from stress, which I would think would officers came into the Service believing that there was be on the rise at the moment, picked up? Is there a a relatively normal society when in actual fact there proper professional support mechanism in place to was not. There is this ongoing problem of sectarian support those people? strife and the problems associated with that—the Terry Spence: We have an occupational health unit dissident threat—and, of course, the most recent that will assist officers, and we have got the Police events of public disorder. I think there is a reality Re-training and Rehabilitation Trust, where there are check with many of those young officers, but they are psychological and psychiatric facilities to help very courageous, brave people, and this only officers, so there is that backup. But from a family strengthens their resolve to ensure that the perspective, I do not believe there is enough, and what paramilitaries will not succeed, and they will not. we find as a Federation is that our benevolent fund needs to make interventions to assist, so more could be done in respect of that. Q57 Kate Hoey: Just one final point: what is your bottom line in terms of new officers that you need Q60 Nigel Mills: Could I just jump in, as I need to recruited and by when? go in two minutes? Mr Spence, in your opening Terry Spence: The problem we have is that up to remarks you mentioned that you thought action on 1,200 officers can leave and maximise their benefits rioting needed to be tougher, quicker action. Are your under the pension scheme between now and 2015. If members saying that perhaps they might have liked those officers go, and we believe the vast majority to have been tougher at the start of the current flag will go, then we are going to be languishing at around disturbance to try to restore order more quickly, rather 6,000 officers in the PSNI between now and then. than have it drag on for as long as it has, or do you That is a very worrying situation, and it is leaving us think the right approach was taken? in a very vulnerable position. So that is why we are Terry Spence: I think our officers have got some saying that, just to tread water, we need 1,000 police concerns about public disorder in general, in that the officers. graduated response that flows from the ACPO regulations on this are somewhat flawed, because a Q58 Andrew Percy: Apologies for being late as well graduated response in respect of dealing with riot at the start. You mentioned a couple of numbers in situations in Northern Ireland does not work your opening statement, one of which we have just effectively. We had a situation where we had masked talked about—the 1,200 additional officers that would men using pickaxes and sledgehammers to attack be needed. You also mentioned that 90 officers have police vehicles. That should never have been allowed been forced from their homes in recent months. So I to happen, but because we have to have this graduated have two questions. First of all, what impact does the response, regrettably that is what occurred. 129 current situation with street disorder, which we are all officers have been injured in the last six weeks and, very aware of, have on recruitment, given that there as I said earlier, 350 since the summer. That is because are at least 1,200 people who need to be recruited plus of this graduated response. There needs to be distance an additional thousand if you get the extra resource? between the police lines and the rioters, and they What impact is that having on recruitment? Secondly, should not, under any circumstances, be in a position what is your assessment of the support that is offered to overwhelm those police lines. That is what causes Ev 18 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence
24 January 2013 Terry Spence, QPM and Mark Lindsay many of the injuries. Heavy masonry is thrown at Q64 Ian Paisley: I think the word baffled is a good officers to try obviously to injure their legs in one, because there was a reluctance to go into the particular, sometimes their heads, but they should not depth of that and yet it seems to be at the critical edge get that close. of where we are. My second question flows from the question Nigel finished on: ACPO regulations and Q61 Nigel Mills: But you are not saying your officers graduated response. Those ACPO regulations affect would have been saying, “If only we’d been allowed all 42 services across the UK, but I have never to clear the early roadblocks, then we could have got witnessed a situation where the police in Ulster kettle this off the street much more quickly.” That is not as they do here in London; if there is going to be a what you are saying—that is not the feeling of your riotous situation, they contain by kettling. Are you members. saying that other responses like that should be deployed in Ulster, or should we approach it in terms Terry Spence: Our officers believe that there needs to of the issue of distance—having a kind of no-man’s- be a robust response to any public disorder, especially land and a clear blue line of police officers? when there are men walking about with scarves and Terry Spence: I am not sure kettling would work in they are armed with pickaxes and other offensive the context of the streets of Belfast or other cities and weapons. We believe they need to be dealt with towns in Northern Ireland, but certainly when it comes effectively, and if that means removing them from the to this graduated response, that is what is responsible road forthwith, so be it. for so many police injuries. It is because the rioters are overwhelming the police lines or they are getting Q62 Ian Paisley: Thank you for your opening much too close and able to cause serious injury with comments; it is good to see that you are off the fence. heavy masonry, petrol bombs and in some cases blast I say that sincerely, because it is good to have straight bombs, and now of course they are using these talking. Northern Ireland is a society that is emerging industrial lasers as well from a distance, and trying to from conflict, and hence why we have a lot of these blind police drivers and also the pilot of the police hangover problems, but thank God it is emerging from helicopter. So we have got all of these problems but conflict and not in conflict. I would like you to qualify the graduated response does not work in the context just one comment in your opening comments. That of these very serious, volatile public order situations was the issue of the 1,200 full-time reserve officers. I in Northern Ireland, which are very vicious. think you said this decision was taken to please politicians. It was taken to please some politicians. A Q65 Ian Paisley: My third issue is that the police number of politicians stood against that, divided the officers in Ulster are men and women of the Policing Board on it, fought against it, and community, they come from that community, and they unfortunately the decision was taken against the will are citizens of Ulster as well. What is their rank and and, indeed, against the sense of the situation. But I file view whenever they see the symbols of the state would like you to qualify that comment. removed and then they have to go out and police Terry Spence: Yes, I think that is correct. that problem? Terry Spence: Mr Paisley, you know only too well that, in the context of being a police service, we Q63 Ian Paisley: Thank you. There are three consider ourselves to be a religion of our own, and questions I have. I was glad you were in for the Chief when it comes to matters such as the flying of the Constable’s evidence, because we did go over this Union flag, while they may have their own personal issue of numbers. Are you content, and are your views, they certainly do not articulate those views to officers content, to await this special review that is me and nor would I ask. now being conducted with regard to what the final number will actually emerge as? Q66 Ian Paisley: In the locker room, seriously, there Terry Spence: I am a bit baffled about this review in is no chat among officers about how scundered—I that we know up to 1,200 officers can maximise their think we used that word earlier—they are about what benefits under the pension scheme between now and is happening. 2015. That means we are going to be sitting at around Terry Spence: Not to me, no. 6,000. Now, Patten said he envisaged 7,500 being the establishment figure in a peaceful scenario. We do not Q67 Mr Anderson: Can I just pick up, Mr Spence, have any semblance of a peaceful scenario. The threat on the numbers? In discussions that I have had with level has been described by the Chief Constable as at my own federation, they have expressed real concern the upper end of severe. We have these murders taking about the numbers they are losing, and despite the fact place. We have loyalist paramilitaries who are much that we are constantly told that crime is coming down, more active and pose a real threat to the peace they say that crime is not coming down. It is being process. Both loyalist paramilitaries and dissident reported differently, so it looks like it is coming down republicans have been engaged in murder in the last but it is not. Is what is being proposed in the 12 months. So it is not getting better any time soon, reductions of the PSNI different from what is and that is why we believe we need these resources happening on this side of the Irish Sea or not? urgently. Even if they pushed the button to start Terry Spence: I think it is quite similar. recruitment now, it is going to take up to two years to get the first officers out on the street. I am concerned Q68 Mr Anderson: Can I just try you on the about that. numbers again? We have heard no more than 7,000 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 19
24 January 2013 Terry Spence, QPM and Mark Lindsay police. You are saying there is a probable move of Terry Spence: First of all what needs to happen is, if possibly 1,200 people taking advantage of the early anyone is arrested engaged in rioting, there should be retirement and you understand why they want to do no bail. They should be remanded in custody until that. So what are you actually asking for in terms of such time as the case is dealt with before the courts, the 1,000 new recruits? Is that to take it back to 7,000 and then the normal judicial process can evolve. Our or to take it up to 8,000? firm belief is that to take these people off the streets, Terry Spence: If you look at the potential for 1,200 to they need to be remanded in custody. go, then in two or three years’ time we are going to be sitting around 6,000 officers, perhaps slightly less Q72 Lady Hermon: It is very nice to see you. Thank than that. Recruiting 1,000 is simply bringing us back you for your patience. I know you that were expected to where we currently sit, and it falls outside the to give evidence a little bit earlier, so thank you for Patten recommendations. He made it clear that in a being so patient with us. I wonder if I could just take peaceful scenario we should have 7,500 as the you to a subject that the Chief Constable did not establishment figure. Quite clearly, we do not have expressly talk about—police morale. He was very that. careful about it; he did explain why he no longer talked about police morale, because he had been asked Q69 Mr Anderson: I take that on board, and none about it for such a long period of time and it has of us will argue that we are not where we hoped we always been going down. So he talked about were going to be, but as a minimum, is that what we commitment and passion for their work and all of should be aiming at: 7,500? those things. Could I ask you the same question? You Terry Spence: You should be at a bare minimum of are the Police Federation and you represent those who 7,500 officers, because we do not have the resilience are at the coalface, although I am not saying the Chief within the Service to deal with widespread public Constable does not. But as the chairman of the disorder coupled with the increased threat from Federation, I would expect you to have a view on dissident republicans. Of course, the other point is police morale. that, while we will always welcome help from Terry Spence: It could be better and I think, for some wherever we can get it, in the context of mutual aid, of the reasons that we have already discussed around that cannot happen either except for a one-off, as the this table, that is why there has been a detrimental Chief Constable mentioned earlier regarding the G8 impact on morale, and that is only natural. But I will Summit. But other than that, mutual aid is not really re-emphasise again: that does not in any way impact a runner. on our officers delivering the service and being robust in the way they do that and being courageous in the Q70 Mr Anderson: In terms of the discussions you way they discharge their duties. But in return, the state just had with Mr Paisley about the graduated response, and the Chief Constable and the Policing Board and that seems to be one area where you seem at odds the Department of Justice must deliver when it comes with what the Chief Constable was saying. Do you to resources. Our people are out there putting their think there are any other tactics the police should be lives on the line on a 24/7 basis. The very least that employing to try to bring an end to what is happening? can be done in return is to ensure that we have the I understand, as I mentioned before, it is not anywhere resources to meet the dissident threat head-on and to near the same as London, but you have got to look at that as the most recent possible example of similar deal with any paramilitary activity or any public sorts of things. The background is very different, but disorder that emanates from either loyalist if there is not another strategy, is the containment just paramilitaries or from republicans. going to run on and on, and will we be coming to the summer and all that normally means the fellows that Q73 Lady Hermon: Just following on from that, you represent will face? how are the injured officers? Could I ask, in particular, Terry Spence: The courts need to have a much more how the young lady is? It turned out to be a young robust response as well to the people who are engaged lady constable who was in the police vehicle where in riots. We have seen a hardening of the judiciary’s the back window was smashed and a petrol bomb was position recently in respect of those convicted of riot, wilfully and deliberately thrown into that car. She was but more needs to be done, and it is the same for those extraordinarily lucky to get away with her life. How who are convicted of terrorist acts, because we feel as is she? How are fellow officers who have ended up a Police Federation that the courts have been overly injured through so-called loyalist protests? Loyalists lenient and, in one case, where someone was engaged attacking police officers just makes me feel very in blowing up a road close to a police station in angry, I must say. Londonderry, 11 years’ imprisonment was the Terry Spence: I have spoken to many of those sentence that was meted out, which is quite incredible. officers, and the young lady concerned has obviously made a full recovery from that very traumatic Q71 Mr Anderson: What about things like bail incident, as you would imagine. But the remarkable conditions? If for example somebody is charged with thing is again their steadfastness. This only disorder and goes to court, but pending a hearing or a strengthens their resolve to deal with this public trial they are out on bail, would part of those bail disorder, and it is incredible to think that many of conditions be that they did not get involved in this sort them who are walking wounded in many respects will of thing again? Is that being handed down or should it come back out onto the front line within hours of be handed down? being injured. I think that shows you the Ev 20 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence
24 January 2013 Terry Spence, QPM and Mark Lindsay courageousness and the tenacity of those officers. said there is an elongation of the marching season last They are up for it. year through the autumn, winter and into what is now a fast approaching springtime. So I think we are going Q74 Lady Hermon: I have absolutely no doubt to find ourselves extremely busy in the coming weeks about their tenacity and their courage—none and months as well, and many officers will not get whatsoever. Could I just pick up on a point that was their leave and many officers will continue to work made almost in passing by the Deputy Chief around the clock. Constable? Forgive me, Deputy Chief Constable, if I attribute this to you and it was not you, but I think it Q80 Kate Hoey: And presumably it is costing a huge was. The point was the falling sickness rate, which I amount more because of overtime? So there is no thought was really very interesting. In fact it was the common sense about the policy as it is at the moment? decrease in sickness rates among officers, which I Terry Spence: For two years we have been saying thought was very good. Could I just ask you to this. comment on or to clarify the role of what I now understand to be the independent medical assessor or Q81 Kate Hoey: I am very grateful that you have assessment? told this Committee. Thank you. Terry Spence: The independent medical practitioner? Terry Spence: Thank you. That is a matter for the Policing Board, who are engaged in that process. There have been a number of Q82 Chair: On numbers, it starts off at 7,000, but complaints from officers in respect of the way in when you break it down into shifts and seven days a which injuries have been assessed and injury-in-duty week and sickness and leave, that number dwindles pensions have been dealt with. down to I do not know how many, but it is spread fairly thinly across the Province, is it not? Q75 Lady Hermon: What is the nature of those Terry Spence: It is. The problem is if there is a particular criticisms? geographical spread coupled with the upsurge in Terry Spence: Officers over 65 being reviewed and terrorism, then it can present the service with many feeling that that is unnecessary, some of them difficulties. I am conscious of the fact that we are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and perhaps coming close to the end, but if you do have being forced to return for reviews, and then we have five minutes of a closed session, I could advise you other officers who are about to be medically about a couple of other things that do concern me but discharged who, for a number of reasons, perhaps are are not for public consumption, Chairman. not particularly happy with the banding or the Chair: Certainly. Are there any other questions for percentage of disablement that is attributed to them this session? Then we will go private. and the injuries sustained. So there is an array of Lady Hermon: Does the Vice-Chairman want to issues and we are actively addressing that, but I think make his voice heard? Is there anything that the Vice- more work needs to be done. Chairman wants to say? Ian Paisley: He has not had a chance with Terry in Q76 Kate Hoey: Just so I am absolutely clear, at this the chair. precise moment has the process started to recruit Lady Hermon: I am now giving him a chance. new officers? Terry Spence: No. Q83 Chair: Mr Lindsay, I understand you are the representative on the chief constable’s discussion Q77 Kate Hoey: When are you expecting that to forum. happen? Mark Lindsay: That is correct, Mr Chairman. Terry Spence: I would expect that the Chief Constable will start recruitment again or the process of Q84 Chair: As far as you are able to tell us, what procurement by the end of this year. is discussed? Mark Lindsay: We discuss issues, or they discuss Q78 Kate Hoey: Why is it taking so long if he agrees issues, that are pertinent to the Police Service, should and you agree, and we all probably agree, that this that be recruitment, should it be new initiatives, position is not sustainable? different initiatives, and surges within policing Terry Spence: I think that is a matter for the Chief demands. It is a forum for the Chief Constable to Constable to answer, because I feel the same way. discuss with his commanders at chief superintendent Kate Hoey: I am sorry I was not here to ask him that. level and above. So most issues are discussed there. I Terry Spence: It should start right now. am not sure how many of the issues are discussed in private first of all, and I think it is a forum where they Q79 Kate Hoey: It just seems crazy, if we are going can all get together and make their views quite openly to spend the money eventually, to not do it now when heard. If I could just add one point to what Mr Spence clearly it is going to take some time to get people in. was saying, all the issues that have been raised— Does that mean overtime is now huge? sickness, morale, police numbers—are all linked. Terry Spence: Yes, it means overtime is huge. It Incidentally, we are very proud of all the officers and means officers are working around the clock; it means the commitment they put in to make policing work in many of them are fatigued. Some of them did not see Northern Ireland, but the hours they are working at their families at all over the Christmas and new year the moment are unsustainable. The hole that is left by period. I think it was the Deputy Chief Constable who insufficient police numbers is being filled by overtime. Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 21
24 January 2013 Terry Spence, QPM and Mark Lindsay
At the moment, there is a concentration on the public Ian Paisley: I do not want to hear this in public, for disorder and there is a massive surge in police a number of reasons. overtime. Some districts, such as North and West Chair: Any more public questions? Can I thank Belfast, Londonderry, along the border counties, have members of the public and members of the media for that surge all the time. Those officers sooner or later attending? I hope you have found the sessions are going to be burnt out. You cannot sustain 100 interesting. I hope you would not mind leaving us hours plus per month across the year. now. Thank you very much.
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