House of Commons Northern Ireland Affairs Committee Current issues facing the PSNI Oral evidence 24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE, Police Service of Northern Ireland Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 24 January 2013 HC 877-i Published on 4 April 2013 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £7.50 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Northern Ireland Office (but excluding individual cases and advice given by the Crown Solicitor); and other matters within the responsibilities of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (but excluding the expenditure, administration and policy of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, Northern Ireland and the drafting of legislation by the Office of the Legislative Counsel). Current membership Mr Laurence Robertson MP (Conservative, Tewkesbury) (Chair) Mr David Anderson MP (Labour, Blaydon) Mr Joe Benton MP (Labour, Bootle) Oliver Colvile MP (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) Mr Stephen Hepburn MP (Labour, Jarrow) Lady Hermon MP (Independent, North Down) Kate Hoey MP (Labour, Vauxhall) Naomi Long MP (Alliance, Belfast East) Jack Lopresti MP (Conservative, Filton and Bradley Stoke) Dr Alasdair McDonnell MP (SDLP, Belfast South) Nigel Mills MP (Conservative, Amber Valley) Ian Paisley MP (DUP, North Antrim) Andrew Percy MP (Conservative, Brigg and Goole) David Simpson MP (DUP, Upper Bann) Powers The committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No. 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk. Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/niacom. Current Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Mike Clark (Clerk), Duma Langton (Inquiry Manager), Edward Faulkner (Senior Committee Assistant), Ravi Abhayaratne (Committee Support Assistant) and Jessica Bridges-Palmer (Media Officer). Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 2173; the Committee’s email address is [email protected]. List of witnesses Wednesday 24 January 2013 Page Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE, Police Service of Northern Ireland Ev 1 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on Thursday 24 January 2013 Members present: Mr Laurence Robertson (Chair) Mr David Anderson Dr Alasdair McDonnell Mr Oliver Colvile Nigel Mills Lady Hermon Ian Paisley Kate Hoey David Simpson Naomi Long ________________ Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE, Police Service of Northern Ireland, gave evidence. Q1 Chair: Can I begin the public session? Just sought to introduce, has been at its highest level for before I get to our guests, on 18 January it was many, many years. announced that the Chairman of the Police Federation So that is encouragement, but clearly there are current of England and Wales, Mr Paul McKeever, had died, difficulties with regards to the flag protests. I am and I think we ought to record the Committee’s relentlessly optimistic that we will see through these condolences to Mr McKeever’s family, friends and problems, and it is an opportunity for some of the colleagues. perhaps underlying issues of deprivation, Chief Constable, you are very welcome. Thank you disadvantages and grievances to be aired. Obviously very much for joining us. We have quite a few areas we would always rather that was done without the we would like to cover with you, if that is okay, but violence, but there is an opportunity now to listen, can I first of all ask you if you would like to briefly take a step back and move two steps forward again, introduce your colleagues and perhaps make an which we are working very hard to achieve. So at that opening statement? point Chair, I will hand over to you and the Matt Baggott: We have Deputy Chief Constable Committee to ask any questions that you may wish to. Judith Gillespie and Assistant Chief Constable, Chair: Thank you very much. I think we will start responsible for all crime matters, Drew Harris; and I with the flag protests, as they have become known. am Matt Baggott, the Chief Constable. I think I will probably keep my opening statement fairly short Q2 Naomi Long: Thank you for the opening because I imagine Members have got a lot of remarks, which cover, I think, some of the questions questions that they want to ask. I have two things to that I have, but there are other elements I want to say: first, how immensely proud I am of the PSNI at raise. Could you just clarify for us how many of your this time. I know Members will be aware of the last officers have been injured during the protests and the eight weeks of disorder and multiple protests, and it trouble? You have said that your organisation is has been a very testing time for the organisation. resilient, but how is morale within the force at the Some evenings we have had up to 80 protests moment? involving thousands of people—localised but very Matt Baggott: We have had 129 officers injured over intense seats of disorder—which have had to be dealt the course of the last eight weeks, and every one of with alongside the continuing threat from dissident those is a serious matter. We have been very fortunate republicans and organised crime. Even in the last that we have not had officers very seriously injured. week we have seized £200,000 worth of cocaine. So We have currently, I think, 13 officers who are still business as usual carries on in spite of disturbances. reported sick, and that is a large-scale reflection of the But it has been a testing time. We will get through difficulty and the intensity of some of the violence this; the organisation is immensely resilient. I am very towards them. proud of colleagues and their commitment to this. Naomi Long: And morale? Suffice it to say, at the beginning of the year we were Matt Baggott: I always make a decision not to talk hoping to be celebrating—I say celebrating, but all about morale as such because, having been in this crime is something that has victims so it is difficult to service now for nearly 35 years, every year I am told celebrate crime—some of the lowest crime figures for that morale is getting lower. So I do not talk about many years. Our overall crime has fallen across all that. I talk about commitment, actually, and categories. Serious violence and murders have not motivation, and I have to say the commitment and the been lower since 1968 and road deaths in Northern motivation of colleagues in the PSNI, even when I Ireland have not been lower since the 1920s. have been to visit them in hospital, has been Confidence in the PSNI, I think because of the efforts exemplary. They have stood in the front line in the last particularly around the personal policing we have eight weeks in a way that is beyond all expectation. Ev 2 Northern Ireland Affairs Committee: Evidence 24 January 2013 Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE They have concerns about the long-term resilience of Matt Baggott: I might let Mr Harris deal with the the organisation, which we may talk about later and specifics with regard to social media. Suffice it to say which are concerns that I have, particularly in light of that we have not just sought our own legal advice on the events of the last six months and looking forward this but also gone outside of the PSNI. We currently over the next couple of years. So there are issues have senior Metropolitan Police officers working with about resilience; there are issues for them about us and sharing with us their own experience of the changes in service pay and conditions, which I think London riots, and we have taken the CPS advice, is reflective of much of the UK; and there are clearly which I think was issued by Keir Starmer in concerns about the long hours that they are having to December, in relation to offences committed on social work at the moment to deal with this problem. But I media. We are talking about that with our own Public do not think you have an organisation that does so Prosecution Service to see whether we can pursue it. well against crime and against such difficulty in the I would have to say, it is not easy. Drew can brief you current situation unless their commitment and on some of the details, but we have put a number of motivation is at the highest level, and I absolutely cases to the PPS already that have not reached the applaud them for that. I could not have asked for evidential threshold. more. In relation to the video and photographs, we have a very clearly worked out policy and procedure with our Q3 Naomi Long: I think we would all recognise that Northern Ireland Policing Board, which is very much has been the case.