COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO ALLEGATIONS OF POLICE INEFFICIENCY IN AND A BREAKDOWN IN RELATIONS BETWEEN THE COMMUNITY AND POLICE IN KHAYELITSHA PHASE ONE

Justin du Toit and Kate Lefko -Everett(Mthente Research)

Date: 21 February 2014 Source: Pages 4299-4331 of Commission transcript

COMMISSIONER: Good morning, morning everybody please remind me of your names I know we met but I don’t know your surnames. MR DU TOIT: Okay it’s Justin du Toit and my colleague Kate Lefko -Everett. COMMISSIONER: You’re very welcome to these proceedings thank you for coming and thank you for your report, are you going to make a power point presentation, that’s right. You are aware that these proceedings are in public, that the media may be here and that they may be reported upon both in the press and in our report and you have no objection to that and your name will be put into the public domain? I think both of you should go u nder oath because you both may answer questions, do either of you have any objection to taking the oath or would you prefer to take an affirmation? MR DU TOIT: No we have no objections to the oath. JUSTIN DU TOIT (sworn states) KATE LEFKO-EVERETT (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR SIDAKI MR SIDAKI: Thank you Madam Chair, I think we’ll lead in the main Mr du Toit. Mr du Toit you are a researcher at Mthente Research and Consulting Services is it correct? MR DU TOIT: That is correct. MR SIDAKI: Can you please just briefly describe what Mthente Research and Consulting Services does? MR DU TOIT: Basically Mthente Research and Consulting Services is an independent research company based in Claremont in . We have been in operation for approximately nine y ears with core focus areas which include monitoring and evaluation, trade and economics as well as surveys which include social surveys and perception surveys. I think more recently and more specific to the study we conducted for the Commission was communi ty perception surveys we undertook amongst community members in Vissershoek in Cape Town, Hangberg in , Atlantis and then also outside of the province in the south Durban basin within KwaZulu-Natal. MR SIDAKI: You are a senior researcher and consul tant at Mthente is it correct? MR DU TOIT: That is correct. MR SIDAKI: What are your academic qualifications? MR DU TOIT: My highest qualification is a Masters in Sociology from the University of Stellenbosch. MR SIDAKI: Your area of specialisation? MR DU TOIT: My area of specialisation is focused on both qualitative and more specifically quantitative research and statistical analysis. MR SIDAKI: Ms Lefko-Everett you are a senior researcher and consultant at Mthente is that correct? MS LEFKO-EVERETT: That is also correct yes. MR SIDAKI: What are your academic qualifications? MS LEFKO-EVERETT: My highest qualification is a Masters in Sociology with a specialisation in social research methods from Trinity College in Ireland. MR SIDAKI: Yes and your primary areas of specialisation? MS LEFKO-EVERETT: Also qualitative and quantitative data analysis and research as well as policy analysis. MR SIDAKI: Yes now Mr du Toit, Mthente was commissioned by the Commission to conduct a survey on community perception into policing in Khayelitsha correct? MR DU TOIT: That is correct. MR SIDAKI: You have prepared a power point presentation that encapsulates the report that you compiled and pr esented to the Commission correct? MR DU TOIT: Yes, yes we have that’s correct. MR SIDAKI: Please go ahead and present your report. MR DU TOIT: Okay thank you Advocate Sidaki and the Commissioners. We would have loved to have about two to three hours to pr esent the findings but 15 minutes will suffice. I’m just referring to the Commission perception of the presentation it is the broad themes and the key findings that emerged from the community perception survey into policing in Khayelitsha. I have my coll eague Kate Lefko- Everett here just to go through any further detailed questions that the Commission or other stakeholders might have. To get straight into the presentation itself in a brief presentation outline what we will be discussing is just briefly t he terms of reference under which Mthente undertook the study followed by a brief context of the Khayelitsha community that emanated from our survey findings and then a very brief sample overview in terms of the residents that we engaged as part of the com munity perception survey. Then going into those key research, the broad research findings and then also the key conclusions as presented in the report. I am looking at the research scope and as per the terms of reference and also as per the project incep tion meeting with the Commission of Enquiry. Our research focused on key objectives which included to determine community members’ experiences of crime, to investigate reporting patterns to the South African Police Service in Khayelitsha but also non -reporting patterns and the reasons for those to SAPS in Khayelitsha. To investigate other experiences as well as interactions with SAPS in Khayelitsha, there we looked at levels of satisfaction and dissatisfaction related to police and police services provide d to the community and to determine the use of vigilante or alternative justice systems as well as community members’ overall feelings of safety and unsafety within the area itself. In terms of the context I’m looking at the Khayelitsha community and this is where we tried to paint a picture of what the community looks like. What we found through the perception survey is that we’re dealing with an extremely vulnerable community within Khayelitsha it’s one that is youthful, it’s a youthful population with 49.5% under the age of 24 years. It is a population that does not have its roots in the Western Cape itself it’s a very migrant population as we found 67.7% of the origins to be in the Eastern Cape Province. What we also found is low levels of education with most of the residents reporting that they had educational achievement below Grade 12. What was also found was that there are high unemployment rates which are then coupled with low wages and what we found is that 60.2% of the respondents were earning less than R3 000 per month so basically living on less than R3 000 per month. Like I said the picture that we found or emanated from the study was a vulnerable population that is youthful, that is a migrant population, low levels of education, high unemployment coupled with low wages. I think encouragingly the stats that emanated in terms of the context also closely correlated to the Census 2011 data as released by Statistic . In terms of the residents that we spoke to, the representative sa mple that was included as part of the community perception survey using the 2011 Census data we drew and certified the sample by key variables. These included, and as agreed upon with the Commission of Enquiry at the project inception meeting, it included variables such as wards and we specifically looked at wards 18, 87, 89 - 98, 99 and ward 109 which encompasses the sum(?) of Khayelitsha. We also looked at gender, i.e. male/females as well as dwelling type, formal and informal. There was an initial discu ssion to include nationality as a variable for certification as well but according to Census 2011 data about 97% of the population of South Africa were South African citizens so we excluded that variable as a variable for certification. What I have just explained is what we refer to as proportional certified sampling. Once we drew the sampling frame according to that strata and according to those variables our fieldwork team then conducted face -to-face interviews with 1 836 Khayelitsha residents and as a greed upon at the project inception meeting with the Commission we conducted these interviews at key central transportation hubs using convenient sampling technique. Just to allow for this and for statistical validity as well we included the sampling inte rval of interviewing every third resident at those transportation hubs. What we are basically saying in terms of the sample of 1 836 residents is that out of a population of 391 749 the sample that we drew and the interviews we conducted provided us with a 95% confidence level and a 2.28% margin of error. Basically what we’re saying there is that if the survey was taken out to the entire population of Khayelitsha 95% of those results will reflect the results as we reflected them in the final report and thos e results that do deviate will only deviate above or below at about 2.28%. So in a nutshell what we’re saying is that the findings that we’re presenting to the Commission today are not findings from just an Mthente research but it’s the voice of the Khaye litsha community and the findings from the survey. Getting into the key research findings and also just to frame the Commission and the audience thinking when we do get into the finding is that the survey was largely quantitative in nature with many close -ended questions so it wasn’t a qualitative exercise, although there were a few qualitative questions that were posed to the respondents. The first key finding that we found in relation to perceptions of safety and experiences of crime is that we have a c ommunity within Khayelitsha that feels fundamentally unsafe within their suburb. We found that 72.9% of the residents do not feel safe in their own suburb, when we asked the question do you feel safe in Khayelitsha 72.9% said that they don’t. The experie nces of crime are extremely high the findings reflect that 41.3% of the respondents experienced personal crime and that figure that percentage jumped to 50.3% when they were asked if they knew of anyone, close friends, relatives that have experienced crime over the past year. Amongst those experiences of crime the most prominent were the social contact crimes which included armed robbery, common robbery and what also emanated was crime as it relates to gangsterism. What we also found in terms of gangsterism is that the Western Cape Department of Community Safety has prioritised gangsterism as a key crime in many of the police precincts. What we found in terms of where these respondents experienced these social contact crimes what came out is that it was m ostly experienced both during the day and at night on the street as well as in their own homes. In addition to this residents reported feeling most unsafe during the day and on night on the street in or near shebeens and within recreational community plac es. So what we found is that people feel fundamentally unsafe, there are high experiences of social contact crimes specifically on the streets as well as within the confines of residents’ own homes. I think what was also interesting is that people don’t feel safe in their own recreation and community places that are geared towards making them feel safe and enjoying the environment in which they live. Furthermore what we found is that although strangers were identified as the most common perpetrators of c rime within Khayelitsha, there were also residents that highlighted people that they know as perpetrators – family members, friends and what we found is that there’s a certain level of mistrust as well within the community itself as well as within the fami ly structure. What we did find is that domestic violence specifically and sexual offences were under reported and this is not a surprising finding, as we know even looking at SAPS data and other data it is an under reported crime. Looking at the fact tha t if you are standing with a fieldworker that’s basically a stranger in a public transportation hub – you’re not going to say my wife beat me or my husband beat me or I’ve been abused by my father so the finding is that it was under reported but this in it self is not a shocking or surprising finding. Giving expression to these perceptions of safety and also the experiences of crime is just feedback from a female resident living in Site B. She stated that: “We are not free to go wherever we would like in Khayelitsha we take detours trying to avoid high crime spots in the neighbourhood. There is also a lack of trust amongst community members. We are never sure that the guy coming towards you is going to rob you, even simple errors like going to the shop to buy electricity one has to be accompanied. Most of the time we are afraid”. In addition our feedback from a young male resident living in Site C indicated that: “People are robbed mostly in the early hours of the morning or the late afternoon as they are either going to or coming from work. The criminals are mostly after people’s handbags (cell phones, money). It gets worse on various paydays the 15 th, 25 th and at the end of the month. I could be coming from night shift in the early hours of the morning and be robbed”. Having looked at perceptions of safety and experiences of crime relating to reporting and non-reporting what we found was that more than ha lf, 57.5% of residents that have experienced crime in the last year have reported it to SAPS so that was an encouraging finding that people are reporting the crimes that they are experiencing. However, those that have reported the crimes to SAPS rated the police response to the crimes reported negatively. There we saw a 61.6% of responses that rated it very poor or poor. In terms of the non-reporting the reasons for not reporting crimes to police in Khayelitsha in particular and what came out most promin ently was the lack of trust in the police as well as perceptions that the police themselves are corrupt. Those not disclosing crimes at all, so not reporting crimes experienced at all highlighted the fear of victimisation, that the perpetrator would be bac k on the streets and they would be victimised because they reported the crime. I’m giving expression to the finding in terms of the lack of trust in the police and not reporting as a result. A female resident in Site C indicated that: “Our lack of trust in the police comes from their lack of punctuality when they are called to a crime scene or they just do not show up. It also becomes very difficult to trust them when we see them together with known criminals at local hangout spots”. Having looked at the reporting and non-reporting to SAPS in Khayelitsha the survey also gauged residents’ perceptions of the South African Police Service but also the police in Khayelitsha themselves. What we found is we asked the question whether their perceptions of the p olice in Khayelitsha have changed over the past five years between 2009 to 2013 and what we found was an interesting finding with 36.6% indicating that their perceptions have remained unchanged with 21.2% indicating their perceptions have grown increasingl y more negative. What we found is that through the evaluation of SAPS in Khayelitsha in terms of the policing the police service provided, the residents evaluated the performance of the police as overwhelmingly negative. So looking at the first bullet po int where the perceptions have remained unchanged and the fact that they rated the police overwhelmingly negative we found that if the perceptions in 2013 were negative and it remained unchanged the problem in terms of – or the perception, the negative per ception in terms of SAPS in Khayelitsha is not a new phenomenon but much more of an historic one. Giving expression to just the negative rating of the performance of SAPS in Khayelitsha a female resident in Kuyasa stated that: “They are not trained in the simplest of tasks of answering and responding to calls and just their overall behaviour towards us as community members is very unprofessional and disrespectful. For example, when a man comes in to report domestic abuse to the police it becomes a laughing matter for them”. In addition a young female resident living in Harare stated: “For me labelling the police as inefficient stems from an experience I had with them when I reported a crime committed against my mother. The first problem is with the call centre for crime reporting they are unprofessional. When I reported my crime the police officer was not attentive at all they tell you they cannot come out now so you have to wait. There was no sense of urgency and there was a lack of concern as he was laughing with someone or people in the background”. The survey also gauged both respondents’ awareness as well as utilisation and dealing and engagement with community policing forums what we found is that although a little over half of the residents have n ot heard of community policing forums in Khayelitsha 48.6% were aware of CPFs in the area. Of the 19.5% that have dealt with CPFs in terms of addressing crime, 90.5% of the 19.5 described the CPFs as helpful. Just to summarise some of the key findings th at we found is that we highlighted a vulnerable largely alienated community within Khayelitsha living in fear of crime most of the time and who perceived the police in Khayelitsha negatively. What we found is that although more than half reported crimes t o SAPS in Khayelitsha based on the multiple response questions 56.8% also reported crimes to people forums other than the police and these included for example family members, street committees and friends. What we found interesting is that apart from rep orting to the police and also to other forums or people other than the police, 7.7% also indicated they report to strangers. So they experience crime and not going to the police, not going to friends, family, forums, they would rather go and report it to a stranger. When we asked people directly whether the feel vigilantism is justified the majority indicated that it is not but interestingly as well 26.9% indicated that it is justified. Also giving expression to that finding is the statement by a female resident living in Site C, she stated that: “We are at a point where we are very angry and fed up with the crime rate. The lack of action from the police and the courts means the only solution is to take justice into our own hands. Sometimes the community does not mean justice to result in death for us it is really about teaching the criminal a lesson”. In addition a young resident living in Harare stated: “As a result of police inefficiency most of the time the community of Khayelitsha takes justice into their own hands. Our second option after reporting to the police or an alternative to reporting to the police is going to taxi drivers in that area and reporting the crime to them. Taxi drivers are now the go-to group they are quick to respond to crimes. They have this way of interrogating and investigating that brings about results and they are always able to bring back your stolen goods. Although these perpetrators are afraid of taxi drivers they are not afraid of the police at all, taxi drivers will bea t up the perpetrator”. In conclusion in terms of our key findings and the voice of the Khayelitsha community what we found is that there are long term institutional distrust and negative perceptions of the police in Khayelitsha. The distrust of neighbour s as well I highlight elucidates a lack of social cohesion and social capital within the community. It is not only a negative perception and feelings of unsafety as it relates to the police but also the distrust within the community itself and among its members, a breakdown in relations between the police and community but within the community as well. Fundamental feelings of unsafety, both outside and within the confines of residents’ homes and alternative systems of justice sought to address crimes experienced. Thank you Advocate Sidaki. MR SIDAKI: Thank you Mr du Toit. Madam Chair I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIDAKI COMMISSIONER: Mr Arendse? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE MR ARENDSE: Thank you Madam Chair and thank you Mr du Toi t and Ms Lefko- Everett. Have you done any similar surveys before this one, community perception surveys? MR DU TOIT: We have done similar community perception surveys like I highlighted at the introduction we conducted perception surveys where I also include socio-economic aspects within Vissershoek, within Atlantis, within Hangberg in Hout Bay as well looking at perceptions. Specifically in Hout Bay we looked at community perceptions of the and also policing within the area as well. MR ARENDSE: Okay and just as a matter of interest the community perception survey of the police in the Hout Bay area how does that compare with the one here in Khayelitsha were there similarities? MR DU TOIT: I would say that I can’t comment on whether there are similarities between the findings as presented to the Commission and the findings as we presented it to the City of Cape Town largely because it is a different community and also a different sample size so I can’t comment on whether there are connections. MR ARENDSE: Can you comment on whether, and if so to what extent, the perception of the community here in Khayelitsha would be informed or shaped or influenced by any perception that they hold of the police viewed nationally. Let me cite an example we all know about Marikana and what happened there and how awful that was. We see on a fairly regular basis either people capturing incidents of police brutality on their cell phones or on You Tube, on TV and I just want to know whether and to what extent those negative perceptions also influence the residents of Khayelitsha. MR DU TOIT: Unfortunately the research didn’t cover that aspect as per the terms of reference. MR ARENDSE: But do you think it would? MR DU TOIT: I would like to reserve my comments on my perceptions and largely focus on the community’s perceptions. MR ARENDSE: Okay, your terms of reference did you determine those terms of reference yourself or were they decided for you? MR DU TOIT: As with other projects and research exercises we are provided with terms of reference and scope of work from the client so no we do not draft or interact in developing the terms of reference. MR ARENDSE: Given the high unemployment levels, low levels of education, low income and so on of more than 60% of the youth of Khayelitsha which constitutes according to your sample just under 50% of the population in Khayelitsha would it be fair to say that this same grouping is either more susceptible to crime and they would also be more likely to commit crime? MR DU TOIT: Unfortunately our research didn’t cover that aspect our focus was on the community’s perception of policing with a specific focus on their experiences of crime and unfortunately not whether they commit crime or not. MR ARENDSE: The wards that you drew your representative sample from ward 18, 87, 89-98, 99 and 109 were these wards chosen randomly? MR DU TOIT: Those wards were provided by the Commission in terms of constituting the suburb of Khayelitsha but also the wards which are served by the precincts of Lingelethu, Harare and Khayelitsha. MR ARENDSE: You don’t know on what basis or what criteria was used for the Commission choosing these wards? MR DU TOIT: The Commission provided the wards in terms of the specific areas which are served by those prec incts which I’ve just mentioned. MR ARENDSE: I can understand that the wards cover Harare, Lingelethu West and the Site B where the three police precincts are I understand that but just the specific wards you don’t know on what basis they were chosen. MR DU TOIT: In terms of the specific bases it wasn’t communicated but what I can say is that the wards that were provided by the Commission do correlate to the Census boundary for the suburb of Khayelitsha. MR ARENDSE: No the reason I ask is that these wards, people in residence in those wards of voting age they also vote for their political parties of choice in those wards that doesn’t come through from the survey. MR DU TOIT: In terms of the residents’ political activity unfortunately the research didn’t cover that aspect. MR ARENDSE: When you say that your research or the Commission can rely on your research because it would indicate a 95% confidence level and a margin of error of only 2.28% how is that determined? MR DU TOIT: The 95% confidence level and the margin of error is a statistical formula that is utilised to calculate representivity based on the population size and for a population of 391 749 the acceptable sample size would have been 1 500 but luckily we were able to increase that to 1 836. MR ARENDSE: Now I just want to understand is this a criterion or a yardstick or a formula that used universally by research groups such as yours that’s what I want to understand? MR DU TOIT: Ja the 95% confidence level and the margin of error which is usually approximately 5% so take it that we have 2.28% is actually excellent in terms of margin of error but 95% confidence level is the standard in social science research and also ensures validity in terms of statistics so it is a statistical valid percentage in terms of confidence levels and margins of error. MR ARENDSE: Your survey indicates that 72% of the sample do not feel safe and their crime experience is very high and what is quite telling is that between 41 and 50% experience social contract crimes. Given those statistics you would agree that policing would be at the very least difficult in Khayelitsha. MR DU TOIT: Unfortunately our research didn’t cover that aspect it looked at like I said people’s experiences of crime in Khayelitsha, whether it relates to the difficulty in the police undertaking and executing their tasks that is unfortunately not part of the brief. MR ARENDSE: Okay and related to that question I would have thought that the Commission is assisted by this that the majority of crime is commit ted either on the street or at home, that this would mean that there should preferably be high visibility police in Khayelitsha to at least bring down that number of to deter crimes from being committed. MR DU TOIT: That is a very good suggestion but unfor tunately our research did not cover recommendations to improve police services in terms of visibility so unfortunately we did not cover that aspect. MR ARENDSE: You also indicate in your research that strangers are identified as perpetrators on the one han d, on the other hand there seems to be that perpetrators are also identified amongst friends and family. I’m not sure again whether you can help because does this indicate a reluctance on the part of residents to inform the police of the perpetrators eve n if they know who they are especially if the perpetrators are amongst family and friends? MR DU TOIT: Specifically related to the question on perpetrators we didn’t delve, the research did not delve into the respondents’ reluctance or non -reluctance to report the perpetrators to the police. Basically the question as it stands in the questionnaire was “who committed the crime” so whether or not they communicated that to the police is unfortunately not part of the research. MR ARENDSE: Does your research assist us in establishing a reason or reasons why domestic violence and sexual offences are under reported? MR DU TOIT: Like I said during the presentation we found the finding that it is under reported and even looking at the SAPS statistics between April 2 012 and May 2013 there limited or no reports of domestic violence although they categorise it differently. Specifically going back to our research the fact that it’s under reported and the reasons for the under reporting is unfortunately not know like I said the survey was largely quantitative and close -ended and not a qualitative exercise. MR ARENDSE: An interesting finding almost is also that robberies take place in the early hours of the morning would that, again is there a reason for that is it because perpetrators are less likely to be identified because it’s at night, is it because perpetrators are less likely to be apprehended because it is perhaps dark and there’s no street lighting can you comment on that? MR DU TOIT: I think specifically on that a spect our research didn’t cover that aspect and more specifically on the comment on crimes taking place in the early hours of the morning, we need to be cognisant of the fact that that was the expression from one participant whereas the findings revealed t hat the social contact crimes usually take place both during the day and at night as I mentioned on the streets as well as within the confines of residents’ homes. MR ARENDSE: Now when you move on to reporting and non -reporting of crimes to the police on the non-reporting side there’s a fair sample that indicates reasons being lack of trust in the police and victimisation. I take it is that victimisation by the police or victimisation amongst the community itself? MR DU TOIT: During the presentation I made it clear that the non-reporting specifically to the police, the SAPS in Khayelitsha the most prominent finding was the lack of trust followed by the perception of corruption of police. The comment as it refers to the fear of victimisation relates to the r espondents that have experienced crime or know of people that have experienced crime but have not reported it at all. So those that have not reported the crime at all indicated that they were afraid of being victimised by the perpetrators specifically as per the survey questionnaire. MR ARENDSE: So are you able to disaggregate that which you call prominent finding about people not reporting crimes to the police can you disaggregate between the lack of trust and victimisation? MR DU TOIT: Can you please elaborate on “disaggregate”? MR ARENDSE: You have a fairly high percentage of just over 50% or just under 50% who do not report crimes to the police for these two reasons so I’m asking within that sample are you able to say the lack of reporting is due to both or is it due to one of the two and if it’s one of the two within that sample what percentage is allocated to lack of trust in the police and what percentage is allocated to the victimisation? MR DU TOIT: I will reiterate again that the finding in term s of the reasons for not reporting crimes to the police specifically is an entirely separate question to those that did not report for fear of victimisation by perpetrators. Those that reported a fear of victimisation… COMMISSIONER: Can I just interrupt here Mr du Toit because I think this is an important question that’s being put to you I see that one of the questions was “why was the crime not reported” so that’s question 26 at page 60 of your report and there were a series of responses one of which the y are afraid of being victimised by perpetrators and the next response was do not trust the police. Was that an either/or so you chose one of those responses, some of yours are multi -response but this was a one. So in response to Advocate Arendse’s quest ion if one looks at your report where you say “afraid of being victimised by perpetrators” and that’s set out at page 38 in Khayelitsha 35.65 said they were afraid of being victimised by perpetrators and 36.2% said they do not trust the police so that is disaggregating which is what I think Mr Arendse would say he would say just over a third explained they’re non -reporting because of fear of perpetrators and another third because of a lack of trust in the police. Then you had another question that explored further the reason for the non -trust in the police so that’s a separate question. If we look there then we see that there is actually a variation between the various police stations so that you find in Harare that the fear of victimisation is 25% and not trusting the police is 20% and in Lingelethu victimisation 34% and not trusting the police is 51%, thank you. MR ARENDSE: Thank you Madam Commissioner. Just in terms of the revision of what this is supposed to be my colleague’s witness so forgive me for not paying particular attention to those finer details but thanks for the help. Just also at this point to apologise for Advocate Masuku’s absence today in terms of a division of work he’s doing some other work outside of the Commission today. By contras t Mr du Toit and ma’am there is a high level of reporting to the police does this indicate some confidence in the police? MR DU TOIT: I think like we indicated during the presentation it is encouraging that more than half of respondents are reporting to SA PS in Khayelitsha. MR ARENDSE: So your answer is that it is encouraging. MR DU TOIT: It is an encouraging finding. MR ARENDSE: Thank you I’m encouraged by that answer. What I find interesting is that you say that the negative perceptions are historic what does that mean is it a perception that goes way back or is in the recent past and also because if you talk about historic and my question about how far back does it go how does that relate to the fact that the bulk of the respondents were youth or rather that virtually half of the population here in Khayelitsha constitutes the youth? MR DU TOIT: Just in response to the question the way that we concluded the negative perceptions and yes there is a bulk, not a bulk but I mean less than half of the respondents that are under 24 years as we indicated in the context section. Basically what we found is that we asked the question whether their perceptions of the police in Khayelitsha changed over the past five years looking from 2009 to 2013 and the fact that on a ll of the statements the variables related to the police service provided and the police themselves in terms of their engagement with the community. It was overwhelmingly negative in terms of the police not being polite, the perception that the police are not trained for what they required to be doing. So if the perceptions of the police in 2013 are as negative and people are reporting in a question whether their perceptions have changed over the past five years it means that the findings, that the percep tions of the police which is negative is not a new perception, that it is an historic one that could possibly date back to 2009. MR ARENDSE: Okay because you would also not know whether any of the respondents would have been privy to evidence that has been given in this Commission, evidence that is part of the documentation where inefficiencies and poor performance and even on the issue of lack of trust how that has been worked on by the police since 2009 to date. MR DU TOIT: Unfortunately we cannot comment on that. MR ARENDSE: I just want you to comment on this because the one thing that struck me even listening to lay witnesses here in the Commission, and I may be wrong just on one witness or in relation to one witness’ evidence, but what one has not found here in Khayelitsha are complaints about police brutality in this area. Your survey talks about police perceived to be disrespectful and unprofessional but I don’t hear anything about an abuse of authority, obviously being disrespectful when you are wearing a uniform or being in a position of power that is an abuse but on a scale of 1-10 I don’t hear anything about police brutality that people are actually scared of the police do you have any comments on that? MR DU TOIT: The research specifically did not focus on police brutality but what we did include in the survey questionnaires were variable in terms of crimes personally experienced we had the variable of assault by police and within that instance we had 20 responses in terms of experiences of assault by police. MR ARENDSE: In terms of your sample what percentage would that be a low percentage? MR DU TOIT: I mean it would be an extremely low percentage out of the 1 836. MR ARENDSE: But even so your sample covered the behaviour of the police insofar as it affects the perception of the community isn’t it? MR DU TOIT: We can’t confirm that but what I can say in terms of the rating of the police service and police it looked at various aspects like I said in terms of the services provided and also the engage ment between SAPS in Khayelitsha and the community overall. MR ARENDSE: Now I would have also thought that the fact that quite a high percentage 48.6% of the sample were aware of community police forums and that 90.5% of that described CPFs as helpful that that indicates there is a relationship between the community and the police would you agree? MR DU TOIT: What that finding does indicate is that (1) the respondents were aware of community policing forums and of the 90.5% that found the forums helpful is a sub-sample and should be taken into account it is a sub -sample of the 19.5% that have engaged CPFs in the area. MR ARENDSE: In fact both findings are indicative of there being at least an encouraging trend that 57% report crimes to the police and 56%, al though not to the police, they report them to the forums and these forums one has to assume represent the views of the community. MR DU TOIT: Unfortunately we can’t make that assumption but like I said earlier it is encouraging that crimes are being report ed to SAPS in Khayelitsha. We should also be cognisant of the fact that although 57.5% do report to SAPS in Khayelitsha we have the outstanding percentage that report to people, forums other than the police in Khayelitsha. MR ARENDSE: That answer you should reserve for Advocate Sidaki I’m not asking you that question I want a positive response but anyway you’ve covered it. Does that fact that 73.1% of the sample regard vigilantism as not justified does that correspond to meaning that where vigilantism is committed or being committed it’s committed by a minority of people? MR DU TOIT: Unfortunately we can’t make that conclusion the question broadly asked the respondents whether they feel that vigilantism is ever justified. MR ARENDSE: Do you find any signif icance in the fact that where people place their, residents place their confidence in taxi drivers who you described in your report as interrogating, investigating and beating up perpetrators, do you find that significant? MR DU TOIT: Unfortunately we cannot comment on whether the finding is significant what we can say is, and going back again to the finding that people are reporting to forums and people other than the police, we should also be cognisant of the fact that that comment came from one participa nt and unfortunately cannot be generalised to the broader population. MR ARENDSE: Because there does seem to be certainly evidence from other researchers who have testified here that people do say that they would rather ask taxi drivers to assist because – and this is also what the one resident said – “they bring your stuff back quickly” as opposed to going to the police and waiting for a long drawn out criminal justice process which may or may not get you your stuff back, you’re not able to comment on that ? MR DU TOIT: Unfortunately the research didn’t cover that aspect in terms of that comparison. MR ARENDSE: Madam Chair can I just look at if there are any questions posed by Mr Masuku that I may have missed? COMMISSIONER: While you do that Mr Arendse there is a question that I have and that is that you refer to the victims of crime survey at page 37 of the report and you contrast the findings of that survey in relation to satisfaction with the police to the findings you have, do we have a copy of that , who constructed the victims of crime survey was that a provincial -wide or city-wide survey do you know? MS LEFKO-EVERETT: The victims of crime survey is a national survey. COMMISSIONER: It’s a national survey MS LEFKO-EVERETT: Yes from the Stats SA. COMMISSIONER: From Stats SA okay and is it an online survey that we can get access to? MS LEFKO-EVERETT: It is I can email it to you. COMMISSIONER: That would be excellent because I notice that there the general level of satisfaction with SAPS in the Wes tern Cape is 66.1% are satisfied which is almost a mirror image of what we’re seeing in Khayelitsha. Anything else Mr Arendse? MR ARENDSE: No thank you, thank you very much. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE COMMISSIONER: Anything in re-examination Mr Sidaki? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIDAKI MR SIDAKI: Madam Chair just to note that the victims of crime have a, is in the Bundle I must still find the actual reference. COMMISSIONER: You’ll find the evidence there’s an awful lot in those Bundles. MR SIDAKI: Yes but just one aspect I’d like to raise with Mr du Toit arising from the question on the wards on which you conducted the survey. Did you conduct the survey in respect of particular wards within Khayelitsha or in respect of Khayelitsha as a whole and when I refer to Khayelitsha as whole I’m referring to the map behind you in the middle if you can recognise it but I see that map on page 21 of your report to the Commission? MR DU TOIT: With respect to the specific wards we were provided with the police precinct boundaries from the Commission in terms of the wards and like I said in terms of the sample or overview the fieldwork was conducted at those key transportation hubs serving the residents that are located within the wards that were provided by the Commiss ion. COMMISSIONER: If I could ask are you saying that those wards are the wall -to- wall wards of Khayelitsha, was there any ward left out in Khayelitsha or is it all the wards that are in Khayelitsha? MR DU TOIT: No those are all the wards in Khayelitsha according to (indistinct) COMMISSIONER: So there was no area of Khayelitsha left out and it was limited to Khayelitsha because that’s the terms of reference of the Commission. MR DU TOIT: Ja definitely there were no wards left out. COMMISSIONER: Thank you. MR SIDAKI: Thank you Madam Chair I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIDAKI COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much indeed, yes go ahead. MR PIKOLI: Thank you, statistics never fail to baffle me so I’m very limited in my understanding but at least I do understand the general issues around them in terms of the perceptions that people have, if anything. I just want to take you to page 37 of your report where you have surveyed respondents on the question of non-reporting of crime where you ha ve about 30.9% of them saying they don’t report because of the fear of being victimised by the perpetrators and 31.5% of them say they don’t report crime because they don’t trust the police. Now is there a correlation between the two in the sense that you would generally expect people to trust the police to protect them against perpetrators. Now you have got this percentage and you are saying that they fear being victimised by the perpetrators and then the others say they don’t report because they don’t t rust the police. Is there a correlation between the two they don’t trust the police to protect them against the perpetrators or it’s just a question of general distrust of the police can you just untangle that? MR DU TOIT: Okay, I think firstly on the ques tion that was posed in terms of reasons for non-reporting it was a multiple response question, question 26 of the survey questionnaire so the respondents could have selected fear of victimisation by perpetrators as well as lack of trust in the police. Als o I think what came out of that finding as well is that although 30.9% fear victimisation by perpetrators as the reason for non-reporting and 31.5 do not report because they do not trust the police we had 18.9% that indicated they do not report because the perpetrators are back on the streets as well. So in terms of the lack of trust in the police and the fear of victimisation the respondents could have selected both those options as their reason for non-reporting. COMMISSIONER: It’s actually different to the answer you gave me originally which was that they were either/or. MR DU TOIT: Ja. COMMISSIONER: That’s not a problem I just want to get clarity in my mind. Would you be able to run an analysis of that question in greater details, in other words how many people answered both fear of victimisation and do not trust the police and there are a couple of others that kind of overlap, if we asked you to run a slightly more detailed analysis of that would you be able to do that? MR DU TOIT: We can definitely do that. COMMISSIONER: Okay we may consult with Mr Arendse who I think is also interested in the answer to this question as to precisely what we want you to run if we could ask you to do that. MR ARENDSE: I could always suggest some answers. COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much for your report and testimony which has been very helpful, we know that you worked under quite intense time pressures so we’re grateful to you for having completed it in good time, you may now stand down thank you. WITNESS IS EXCUSED