Vol. 799 Wednesday No. 333 17 July 2019

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Royal Assent ...... 229 Questions Interfaith Dialogue...... 229 Plastic Bag Charge ...... 231 Defence: Expenditure ...... 234 Gambling: Children in Africa...... 236 Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications, Deemed Applications, Requests and Site Visits) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2019 Motion to Approve ...... 238 Environment (Legislative Functions from Directives) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Motion to Approve ...... 239 Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2019 Motion to Approve ...... 239 Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill Report...... 239 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill Report...... 244 Electricity Capacity (No. 2) Regulations 2019 Motion to Approve ...... 347 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill Third Reading ...... 356

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The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour Lab Co-op Labour and Co-operative Party LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2019, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 229 Royal Assent [17 JULY 2019] Interfaith Dialogue 230

House of Lords Baroness Goldie: I thank the noble Lord for the practical and interesting example he has shared with Wednesday 17 July 2019 the House. I am pleased that the Government are committed to preventive diplomacy such as mediation, 3 pm and are working closely with the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury to enhance the UK’s work in this area. The UK believes that mediation Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle. requires a concerted approach from a range of actors. These include regional and sub-regional organisations, civil society, religious leaders and the meaningful Royal Assent participation of women. The Government are happy to facilitate a telephone conversation between the 3.05 pm most reverend Primate and the leader of Nigeria’s Muslims, should he require such assistance. The following Act was given Royal Assent: Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con): My Lords, I am the Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Act. president of the Institute for Jewish Policy Research. Wehave conducted a survey about anti-Semitism among young Jewish people in every EU state. Sadly, we have Interfaith Dialogue discovered that nearly half of all those young people Question have suffered from some form of anti-Semitism activity over the past 12 months. The UK has the second-largest Jewish population in the EU and it is clear that the 3.06 pm leadership required to combat anti-Semitism has to Asked by Lord Lea of Crondall start at the top. I therefore salute those members of the Labour Party in this House who signed the letter To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans published in this morning’s Guardian to try to deal they have to work with European leaders and the with anti-Semitism in the party. The Government of leaders of the Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths the United States have appointed a special envoy to to develop a comprehensive plan for inter-faith deal with global anti-Semitism, Mr Elan Carr. Will dialogue for areas of religious conflict which includes the United Kingdom Government consider doing the methods for mediation in order to facilitate improved same? ways of working between communities. Baroness Goldie: The noble Lord depicts a troubling scenario in the result of the survey to which he referred. Baroness Goldie (Con): My Lords, we welcome the I assure him that the Government are committed to United Nations Plan of Action for Religious Leaders combating anti-Semitism both internationally and and Actors to Prevent Incitement to Violence that Could domestically.At an event at the United Nations General Lead to Atrocity Crimes. However, we have concerns Assembly last September, my noble friend Lord Ahmad over how the plan will be implemented. In the UK, reaffirmed the UK’s commitment to education and following the publication of the final report of the dialogue to combat the scourge of anti-Semitism in all independent review of FCO support for persecuted its forms. Where we are aware of or witness it, it Christians, we are working across government to see behoves us all to stand up, call it out and condemn it what else we can do to support members of faith and without equivocation. belief communities around the world. Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD): My Lords, I Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab): My Lords, I thank the widen the question: have the Government developed a Minister for that constructive response. The tensions social cohesion framework or action plan for post between adherents of different faiths, and subsets within Brexit, or post a decision to remain, that ensures that them, are of course an inescapable part of the story of individuals and groups who seek to divide and to humanity, including between Judaism, Christianity and promote extremism cannot play to fears within some Islamism. That trio have common roots in the area communities? For example, have the Government any that centres on Jerusalem, but they are now present in views on Canada’s intention to introduce a new digital all the continents alongside other faiths. I draw attention charter to combat hate speech and misinformation? to the crucial innovation in Africa of a hotline between the bishop and the imam in the proselytising borderland Baroness Goldie: The Government have strict laws of Kaduna in northern Nigeria, which has already to deal with such matters, as the noble Lord will be saved thousands of lives. Do Her Majesty’s Government aware. As he will also be aware, my noble friend Lord agree that, in line with the global UN principles that Ahmad is special envoy on freedom of religion or the Minister mentioned, we Europeans have a vested belief, and I think the Chamber will want to acknowledge interest in providing wherewithal? I do not mean just his tremendous work. Indeed, the reason he is not here in rapid response; I mean helping to engender permanent this afternoon is that he is in Washington representing co-operative arrangements on the ground in critical the UK at the US Ministerial to Advance Religious areas based, inter alia, on the competences from European Freedom. That is one example of what the United agencies such as providing help to train mediators and Kingdom is doing both domestically and globally to experts in logistics and communications. address the issues that rightly concern the noble Lord. 231 Interfaith Dialogue [LORDS] Plastic Bag Charge 232

The Lord Bishop of Newcastle: My Lords, in April TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department my colleague the most reverend Primate the Archbishop for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Canterbury and His Holiness Pope Francis together of Kimble) (Con): My Lords, this important measure hosted a spiritual retreat at the Vatican for civil and affects small businesses. To ensure effective policy, we religious leaders of war-torn South Sudan. This was a have asked the Regulatory Policy Committee to scrutinise clear demonstration of the kind of ecumenical joint our evidence of costs and benefits, as set out in the initiative between religious leaders that can promote impact assessment. That is in line with the Small reflection and reconciliation in troubled parts of the Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015. We world. Does the Minister agree that such initiatives expect the comments in mid-August and, subject to benefit all communities, not only those of faith, and them, we intend to publish our proposal as soon as that the global Anglican Communion would be a possible afterwards. An affirmative SI will be required valuable partner in any scheme such as that proposed to introduce any changes. by the noble Lord, Lord Lea? Lord Hayward (Con): I thank my noble friend for Baroness Goldie: I thank the right reverend Prelate that Answer. His department indicated previously in a and pay tribute to the work to which she referred. It is Written Answer that usage of plastic bags among to be commended and is an interesting example of small and medium-sized retailers will drop by some what can be done with both determination and 2.2 million a day when the policy is introduced. Therefore, imagination. She is correct that such initiatives can since my last Oral Question on this subject on 17 June, produce broader benefits beyond the immediate arenas 75 million plastic bags have been brought into the of the parties involved. waste stream unnecessarily, into the nation’s rivers and the world’s whales. Will my noble friend please indicate Lord Chartres (CB): Does the Minister agree that more specifically when he is likely to implement a British universities, with their diverse student and staff policy that has worked well in Wales and Scotland for bodies, are particularly hopeful and unexploited places a number of years, and how much charities have lost in which to do precisely what the noble Lord proposes? in the period since his last Answer to me? Is she aware of the work done, for example, by the London School of Economics interfaith centre, especially Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, I first salute my its oversubscribed faith and leadership programme? noble friend’s tenacity on this matter. We do want to Could this be commended more generally? make progress. Weestimate that, overall, surplus income to charities from charging would be £29 million in Baroness Goldie: I thank the noble and right reverend year one. Clearly, I recognise the importance of reducing Lord for raising an extremely important point. The bags in circulation, and it is important to register that FCO has extended training on the influence of faith six out of seven supermarket chains are phasing out on foreign policy, commissioning the LSE Faith Centre the single-use carrier bag by the end of this year. The to deliver a training course on religious literacy and whole point of the charge is to change consumer introducing a series of regular seminars. We certainly behaviour—that is really what this is all about. invite other government departments, including DfID, to join this training. Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab): My Lords, the Lord Turnberg (Non-Afl): My Lords, I admit to noble Lord, Lord Hayward, has hit the nail on the knowing a bit about anti-Semitism and not a little head. The Secretary of State has been strong on about Islamophobia. Both those pernicious doctrines rhetoric but weak on action. Yesterday, he made what are on the march across Europe and now, unfortunately, was billed as his farewell landmark speech. The truth in our tolerant Britain. Will the Minister encourage is that this Government have failed to bring forward a our religious leaders—the rabbis, imams and bishops—to single piece of primary legislation on waste since the produce several joint statements in which they show last election. So, before he goes, will the Minister put their abhorrence for these doctrines to their followers? in a special plea to his boss for urgent action to end single-use plastics and introduce the plastic bag charge Baroness Goldie: We all listened to what the right for which we have been waiting for a very long time? reverend Prelate said. It is perhaps not for me to tell communities of faith what to do but everyone will Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, I very much have listened with great sympathy to what the noble hope that it is not the Secretary of State’s farewell Lord said, and I imagine that our communities of message, because he has shown great leadership in faith will want to respond positively. ensuring that the enhancement of the environment is in everyone’s mindset. We introduced a world-leading Plastic Bag Charge ban on microbeads in rinse-off personal care. We announced a ban on the sale and distribution of Question plastic straws and stirrers, and plastic-stemmed cotton 3.15 pm buds, which is due to come in next April. There is Asked by Lord Hayward plenty of work. I always wish to take speedy action on this, but we need to get it right and we will need to do To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to research on things such as biodegradable plastics so the response by Lord Gardiner of Kimble on 17 June that we make the right choice for the environment. (HL Deb, cols 645-7), whether they plan to announce the introduction of the 10p plastic bag charge in Baroness Parminter (LD): My Lords, £50 million England in the next month; and if not, what was was raised from the plastic bag levy last year. Given meant by “very soon”. that retailers do not have to say where the money goes, 233 Plastic Bag Charge [17 JULY 2019] Defence: Expenditure 234 and last year only 60% chose to do so, what confidence Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, I have enormous do the Government have that this money will end up sympathy with that. It is obviously a matter for the going to good causes? House authorities. Those of us who subscribe to various societies and organisations are now starting to see Lord Gardiner of Kimble: The noble Baroness is that, for instance, the Royal Horticultural Society has right that it has gone to very good causes, and it is a biodegradable envelopes rather than plastic ones. That matter of social responsibility that the charities that is the way forward. Everyone who is a member of a benefit from the charge should receive that money. I society or an organisation should perhaps encourage mentioned in my earlier reply that six of the seven them to start thinking more about the circular economy supermarket chains are phasing out single-use carrier and not using plastic in it. bags this year, so we will see a change. Although we will continue to have charitable donations, this is Defence: Expenditure about changing consumer behaviour, and charities Question will need to recognise that. 3.22 pm Lord Wigley (PC): Does the Minister accept that, Asked by Lord Lee of Trafford while the primary objective is clearly to reduce the use Toask Her Majesty’s Government whether current of plastic bags, with the benefits that will come from defence expenditure is sufficient to meet the United that, our experience in Wales is that there is a secondary Kingdom’s responsibilities (1) nationally, and (2) to benefit in tidying up the environment, particularly the international partnerships and alliances. hedgerows, where there are far fewer plastic bags now lodging? Will he bear that in mind in driving this The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) policy forward? (Con): My Lords, we continue to meet our commitments, both to our defence strategic objectives and to our Lord Gardiner of Kimble: We discussed these matters international partners. The Government have committed earlier this week in relation to littering. The evidence is to meet the NATO defence investment pledge to spend very clear that the reduction in the number of single-use at least 2% of GDP on defence every year of this carrier bags has had a dramatic effect, particularly in Parliament. We have the largest military budget in terms of marine litter. There has been a very considerable Europe and are the second largest spender in NATO reduction in the appearance on beaches and in the behind the US. oceans of carrier bags. Of course, most marine litter Lord Lee of Trafford (LD): My Lords, those are comes from land sources—so I agree with the noble soothing assurances, as always, from the Dispatch Box Lord. but, in reality, we have weekly warnings from the noble Lord, Lord West, on naval stretch, the number of combat Baroness Boycott (CB): My Lords, while I appreciate of aircraft has fallen from 210 in 2007 to 119 today, the 10p tax, why can the Government not go further and the Army has serious deficiencies in manpower, and ban these bags? Certain plastic items are being logistics and equipment. Encouragingly, Boris Johnson, banned. There are 500 billion single-use plastic bags in a letter to Julian Lewis, chairman of the Defence made in the world and they have a shelf life of 12 minutes, Select Committee, said: apparently. New York is about to ban them. California “I can give you an absolute commitment to fund defence fully has banned them and so have 32 countries around the … I guarantee, of course, that we will exceed the minimum world. We can see where consumer interest is going. 2% NATO spending target and the defence budget will continue Why are we not doing this? to grow at a minimum of 0.5% annually”. Given Mr Johnson’s reputation for integrity, consistency Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, what is happening and preciseness, how would the Minister prioritise with the supermarkets—and, indeed, with the 10p charge these promised extra resources? —shows that we are changing consumers. Yes, we can Earl Howe: My Lords, it is undoubtedly true that ban certain things, but if we are to command the consent the spending review later this year will be an important of most people in this country we have to encourage event for defence. It will build on the modernising each and every one of us to change our consumer defence programme, which will take forward our threefold behaviour. That is why the 5p charge has already had a agenda to mobilise, modernise and transform defence dramatic impact and why we believe that the 10p charge so that the Armed Forces can tackle new threats. As to all retailers will have a considerable impact. I think for equipment, we expect to publish our financial that that is the way forward. Banning things is a last summary of the equipment plan in the autumn, and resort. we will address the longer-term affordability of the plan in the spending review. Lord Tomlinson (Lab): While the noble Lord is struggling with the problems of consultation in relation Lord West of Spithead (Lab): My Lords, I feel to plastic bags and their distribution by supermarkets considerable sympathy for the Minister because he is and others, will he perhaps turn his undoubted abilities defending the indefensible. The Foreign Secretary, who to something nearer home: namely, the plastic bags in I think probably has a reasonable understanding of which we have mail forwarded to our domestic addresses? our foreign and international commitments, has said They are very heavy plastic, they are almost impossible that we will double the percentage of GDP spent on to open and they come at great cost to the taxpayer. defence. The former Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, 235 Defence: Expenditure [LORDS] Gambling: Children in Africa 236

[LORD WEST OF SPITHEAD] Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con): My Lords, the defence continually argued against me, saying that there was of the realm is the very first responsibility of any lots of money for defence, but three weeks after coming Prime Minister and not a laughing matter. Over history, out of the post he said that there was a crisis and we the frigate has been absolutely key. The old ship of the needed to spend a lot more on defence. His successor line, the battleship, gets all the glamour but the frigate said the same. Clearly, there is a real problem. Come is key. Taking into account what happened last week this summer, will we make sure that there is no further with HMS “Montrose” and HMS “Duncan”, does the hollowing out of our Armed Forces—I emphasise that Minister agree that, with our global responsibilities they are hollowed out—to ensure that we meet our coming up in the very near future, we need about procurement budget? 25 frigates ready to do the job properly?

Earl Howe: I think we can take some reassurance Earl Howe: I am grateful to my noble friend. I am from the fact that the last Budget settlement gave defence not sure about the number he cites but I agree with the a substantial boost, enabling us to say with confidence tenor of his question. We can be proud of what that we do not have to make any cuts, particularly on defence has achieved and the investments it has made the equipment front. However, it is true—as I have said in recent years, but we must also be vigilant. We must publicly before—that the forecast cost of our equipment respond to growing threats, especially more persistent plan exceeded the budget over a 10-year period, and if and aggressive state competition, and the disruptive we took no action the plan would not be affordable. effects of rapid advances in technology. With those We are taking action, however, particularly through things in mind, the MoD has established a set of effectivemanagementtocontrolcostsanddriveefficiencies, policy approaches and capability investments designed and, as I said, there is additional funding in the to keep us on track to deliver the right UK defence for Budget. However, the spending review will count for a the coming decade. lot.

Lord Boyce (CB): My Lords, amateurs talk tactics; Gambling: Children in Africa professionals talk logistics.Notwithstanding the Minister’s Question reassuring words, the well-documented pressures and the level of risk in the defence budget are real. Can the 3.29 pm Minister provide an assurance that the stock levels of the department’s weapon, ammunition and stores Asked by Baroness Sheehan inventories will allow ships, planes and soldiers to deploy with the necessary resilience to conduct sustained Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what assessment operations? they have made of the role of British gambling companies and football clubs in encouraging children in Africa to gamble illegally. Earl Howe: I am grateful to the noble and gallant Lord, and can tell him that resilience is one of the priorities of his successor, the current Chief of the TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department Defence Staff. We are acutely aware of the need not to for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of run down munition stocks and a programme is in train Hyde) (Con): My Lords, the Gambling Commission to ensure that those matters are addressed. expects operators which it licenses to obey the law in other jurisdictions in which they operate. It is first and Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab): My Lords, yesterday the foremost for the Kenyan authorities to investigate the Defence Select Committee report found that MoD alleged breaches of Kenyan law, as reported by the expenditure has been cut by an eye-watering 25% since Sunday Times. Operators licensed by the Gambling 2010. The former US Assistant Secretary of Defense Commission are required to report any regulatory for International Security Affairs said that during this investigation or finding into their activities in any time there has been, other jurisdiction. This lets the commission assess “a steady decline of Britain as the partner of first choice for the their suitability to hold a licence. We are proud of US military”. English football’sglobal appeal, and want this to continue Does the Minister accept that austerity has undermined to grow. At the same time, our clubs and sporting the UK/US defence partnership and that ultimately organisations must ensure that they are responsible you cannot do security on the cheap? when it comes to their relationships with betting partners, both in the UK and abroad. Earl Howe: My Lords, no, I do not think it has undermined the partnership. It is true that defence Baroness Sheehan (LD): I thank the Minister for his expenditure has declined as a proportion of GDP response. Companies with British links use techniques since the 1980s, but we have seen total defence expenditure banned in the UK to appeal to African youngsters by steadily increase again since 2014. I would add only using cartoon characters and free branded merchandise. that, when we look at defence spending, it is not The weekend before last, several Everton players in necessarily appropriate to try to compare like with SportPesa-branded kit took part in a DfID-funded like, because the nature of defence spending changes event for a project for slum girls, Let Our Girls Succeed. year by year, particularly the nature of operational Why are the Government aiding and abetting the steep spending. As I said, the core defence budget has been rise in unscrupulous and illegal gambling aimed at increasing and is currently £39 billion. children in Africa? 237 Gambling: Children in Africa[17 JULY 2019] Town and Country Planning Regs. 2019 238

Lord Ashton of Hyde: I completely understand the but the amount of evidence they have to provide of worries behind the noble Baroness’s Question. It is compliance is somewhat limited. Does the Minister important that companies obey the law, but I do not agree that it would be a good idea to require the chief understand why she thinks the Government are aiding executive of each company to sign a certificate of and abetting that. We expect companies to obey the compliance, and then treat any fraudulent certificates law in jurisdictions, and if they do not, they are as a matter of criminal law, alongside the potential required to report to the Gambling Commission. It is fines by the Gambling Commission or the possible up to the Gambling Commission to take regulatory loss of a licence? action if it deems it correct. Ultimately it can take a gambling licence away from an operator if it is not regarded as suitable to hold one. Lord Ashton of Hyde: I certainly agree that that is an interesting suggestion, particularly the bit about chief executives taking responsibility for the companies. Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, is I would not go so far as to say that it should be a not the most egregious issue here that the sort of matter for the criminal law but it is an interesting activity witnessed in the reports, and referred to already, suggestion. As I said before, the Gambling Commission is being used in this country, where high-visibility is the Government’s adviser; I am sure that it will bear celebrities endorse the active participation of those the noble Lord’s suggestions in mind. watching the sport to gamble in it? This may well account for—and the Minister is aware of this—the quadrupling of the number of 11-16 year-olds who Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): Can the Minister have now been classified as problem gamblers. All we explain why it is not a matter for the criminal law? have at the moment is a voluntary code. Is it not time for this to become a statutory code? Lord Ashton of Hyde: I was suggesting that that Lord Ashton of Hyde: The code has made significant would be a change to the existing arrangements and progress, and this is in response to evidence, when it that I do not think it right to suggest a change in the appears. If there is evidence that there is a problem, criminal law from the Dispatch Box without considering the Gambling Commission will look at it. It is the it fully. adviser to the Government, and the Government have said many times that if there is a problem that needs Lord McNally (LD): My Lords, an earlier Minister addressing, we will do so. There has been substantial referred to corporate social responsibility. Clubs such change, both on advertising and gambling activities, as Everton and Tottenham Hotspur have corporate to restrict the amount of gambling advertised and its social responsibility not only in this country but abroad; availability to young people. The issue is that there is a they should not be allowing their players to endorse difference in this country because those regulations gambling in Kenya and other foreign countries in are enforced, and there is also substantial progress on ways that would not be allowed in this country. a voluntary basis.

Lord Garnier (Con): My Lords, would my noble Lord Ashton of Hyde: I do not completely agree friend the Minister agree that if individuals or companies with the noble Lord. I agree that they have social break regulations or commit offences to do with gambling responsibility and must protect not only their own in this country, it is a matter for the authorities, be good name but that of football, which is an asset to they prosecutors or regulators, in this country? If they this country. But corporate bodies have to obey the do so abroad, it is a matter for the overseas jurisdictions. laws of the countries in which they perform. That is Can the Gambling Commission take into account their legal duty and what the Gambling Commission misconduct proven abroad when considering the licensing will take into consideration. of relevant companies in this country?

Lord Ashton of Hyde: My noble and learned friend Town and Country Planning (Fees for is right. I agree that it is the responsibility of sovereign Applications, Deemed Applications, countries to enforce their own gambling laws. Certainly, as I think I said in my opening Answer, the Gambling Requests and Site Visits) (England) Commission in this country can take account of action (Amendment) Regulations 2019 abroad. The commission can also help and advise Motion to Approve foreign countries if they so require. Indeed, in 2018-19 the Gambling Commission responded to 115 formal requests for assistance and hosted a number of 3.37 pm jurisdictions planning reform for their gambling legislation Moved by Lord Young of Cookham which wanted to learn about the approach in the UK. That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 10 June be approved. Considered in Grand Lord Foster of Bath (LD): My Lords, as the Minister Committee on 15 July. has already explained, holding a UK gambling licence requires relevant companies to comply with relevant legislation in all the other countries in which they operate, Motion agreed. 239 Environment Regulations 2019[LORDS] Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill 240

Environment (Legislative Functions from is what I would call untethered: it is not attached to Directives) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 any proper delegated legislation. I have tabled this amendment to offer the guidance in a proper,regulatory, Motion to Approve reformed manner. I am aware that we are anxious to get the Bill through, but I would welcome my noble 3.38 pm friend’s telling us considerably more about his intentions Moved by Lord Gardiner of Kimble to give this guidance. I hope he will be able to give a substantial slice of the loaf, rather than a few measly That the draft Regulations laid before the House crumbs. I beg to move. on 6 June be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 15 July. Lord Trees (CB): My Lords, I rise to support the Motion agreed. noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, in seeking assurance from the Minister that appropriate guidance will be issued in a timely fashion to clarify some of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) definitions in this short Bill, notably “travelling circus”, Order 2019 and to help ensure that the Bill does not set a precedent Motion to Approve of restricting further activities involving animals for which there is scant evidence of harm. With the indulgence 3.38 pm of the House, I would like to make a few brief but Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford important points. That the draft Order laid before the House on We live in a liberal democracy in which activities 4 June be approved. are allowed unless there is evidence of harm to persons, property, animals or the environment which justifies Relevant document: 53rd Report from the Secondary their abolition. On that definition, this Bill fails. As Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand the Minister knows, I am a passionate advocate for Committee on 15 July. animal welfare, but there is no evidence of a case to answer on animal welfare grounds in this instance, Motion agreed. despite this activity having been under close inspection as a condition of its licence. Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill Even if there were, and even if, as in this case, the Report justification for this legislation is ethical, this Bill fails on any test of proportionality. There are 19 animals 3.39 pm involved. The various and multiple conditions to which these animals are exposed are not, I would submit, Amendment 1 significantly different from those to which millions of Moved by Baroness Fookes other animals are exposed in all manner of activities with which I—and, I suggest, many in this Chamber 1: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— and most of the public—acquiesce. Members of the “Guidance circus community have suggested that this legislation (1) Not later than 20 November 2019, the Secretary of State is discriminatory against them, because it singles out must issue guidance on the provisions of the Act, including circus people and circus animals, and regrettably I feel on the scope of the offence in section 1 and the significance they have a point. of “travelling circus”. This Bill will go through, and I do not mean to (2) The Secretary of State may issue revised guidance at any time. oppose it. The three main political parties support it. However, I make a plea to this and succeeding (3) Guidance under this section may not be issued unless a draft has been laid before and approved by a resolution Governments that they base their evaluations and of both Houses of Parliament.” decisions involving animal activities on sound evidence of harm, estimates of the severity of that harm and Baroness Fookes (Con): My Lords, I will explain objective measures of the quantum of that harm—how briefly the reasoning behind this amendment. During many animals are involved. Otherwise, I fear that we earlier stages, some concern was expressed about the are moving—and indeed this Bill takes the first steps— meaning of certain points in the Bill, notably “travelling from animal welfare legislation to animal rights legislation. circus”. It was not included on the basis that this was a I do not doubt that this is not the intention of Her widely understood, everyday term, but concern was Majesty’s Government or the Minister. I continue to certainly expressed that it might be interpreted in an commend them, as I have in the past, for their previous unexpected way that might widen it unattractively. excellent measures to improve animal welfare, but I I would have preferred to have this on the face of fear that others may interpret the passing of this Bill the Bill. Perhaps I am ultra-sensitive, but as a former differently. member of the Delegated Powers Committee, and its chairman until I stood down owing to serious illness, I 3.45 pm am particularly sensitive about anything which is not Baroness Parminter (LD): My Lords, I add the dealt with in a proper parliamentary fashion. My support of our Benches to the noble Baroness in noble friend the Minister was willing to offer guidance seeking reassurances about the critical issue of guidance. about this after the Bill receives Royal Assent. That is This is an important piece of legislation, albeit one very welcome, but I am still concerned that this guidance that affects a very small number of wild animals. 241 Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill[17 JULY 2019] Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill 242

Ensuring that we have clear guidance on the definition The Government’s commitment to issue guidance of “travelling circus” and who can seize these animals is on the record; I put it on the record again. I should is critical, but it is equally critical that we get it done also add that the Government have committed, during soon, as these licences will expire in January. Given debates on the Bill in the other place, to consult with that critical timing, if there is not time for this House welfare groups, the police and other stakeholders on to have further scrutiny, it would be beneficial if, in the guidance. Defra officials have already begun the summing up, the Minister could reassure us about process of drafting the guidance. If my noble friend who the Government are talking to when compiling Lady Fookes, the noble Lord, Lord Trees, or indeed appropriate guidance to take this matter forward. any other noble Lords wish to see the guidance in draft before it is issued, I would of course be pleased Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab): My Lords, I to share it with them. have great respect for the positions of the noble Baroness, There is also a timing and practical point, which a Lady Fookes, and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, and I number of your Lordships have already raised, with agree that decision-making in this House should be regards to my noble friend’s amendment. I recognise based on sound evidence. That is always how we that my noble friend is speaking to the principle of operate. having statutory guidance, but I have made it very The issue of guidance was raised at Second Reading clear as to the work that we will undertake on the and debated again in Committee. It is important that contents of the guidance and the timings for publication. we have detailed guidance to support the core objectives I am concerned that my noble friend’s amendment of this Bill, which has widespread support. At Second does not allow sufficient time for both Houses to Reading, we were pleased that the Minister placed on consider the guidance between the Bill gaining Royal record that the guidance will be published by 20 November, Assent and the deadline for the guidance to be published two months before the Bill comes into effect. We were on 20 November. also persuaded that the common-sense approach to spelling out the details of many of the issues that As I have said, it will, and it should, be for the noble Lords were raising—such as the definition of courts to provide the ultimate interpretation of this “travelling circus”—would be to include them in the Act. The guidance that we will produce will aid circuses guidance, rather than on face of the Bill. and enforcers in understanding the requirements of Let me make our position clear. Our priority is to the Act by providing an explanation of some of the finish all stages of this Bill before the coming recess, so key terms used. This is a particular point that the that it can be put on the statute book. It is a good Bill, noble Lord, Lord Trees, is getting at—I understand it. which delivers on my party’s long-standing commitment The Government have no further intention beyond to ban wild animals in circuses. Any amendments this measure in terms of wild animals in circuses and passed today would jeopardise it. I therefore urge the travelling circuses. The guidance will set out examples noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, to consider that and to of the types of activities that the Government consider withdraw her amendment. would and would not constitute a “travelling circus”. So, for example, the guidance will make clear that we TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department do not consider that the Bill affects activities such as for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner travelling bird of prey displays, festive reindeer displays, of Kimble) (Con): My Lords, this new clause would educational visits to schools involving small zoo animals require the Secretary of State to produce guidance on or wild animals used in television or film work, for the provisions of the Act by no later than 20 November example. 2019. It would also require guidance to be approved by The guidance will give examples of what the resolution of both Houses, including if and when Government intend to be meant and not meant by guidance is revised. I say particularly to my noble performance and exhibition, as used in the Bill. So, for friend Lady Fookes and to the noble Lord, Lord Trees, example, “exhibition” would include positioning a wild that I have already stated on the official record during animal in a manner calculated to promote the circus, debates on this Bill at Second Reading and in Committee whether or not a payment is required, whereas a wild that the Government will be producing guidance. As animal spotted in a field by a passing member of the the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, has public grazing unadorned—where that viewing is not said, that guidance will be issued by 20 November 2019, being encouraged by the circus—would not count as two months before the commencement of the Act. being “exhibited”. As I confirmed at Second Reading, we do not consider it appropriate for the guidance to be statutory. My noble friend Lady Fookes also spoke at Second The aim of the guidance is not to set out additional Reading about the definition of “wild animal”. The requirements or obligations but to provide clarity on guidance will provide examples of animals considered the Government’s interpretation of certain terms used not to be commonly domesticated in Great Britain in the Bill and the approach that will be taken to from the definition of “wild animal”. The guide to the enforcement. If a challenge is brought, ultimately it provisions of the Zoo Licensing Act 1981 provides will be for the courts to interpret the Act. This is the advice on what animals may fall into either the normally position taken by the Scottish Government, who have domesticated or not normally domesticated categories, produced well-considered non-statutory guidance to and we plan to draw from that approach. So, for example, accompany their Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses the guidance will explain that cats, dogs and horses (Scotland) Act 2018, which is a good example of the would not be deemed “wild animals” under the Bill, type of guidance Defra will be looking to produce. but tigers, wolves and zebras would be. 243 Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 244

[LORD GARDINER OF KIMBLE] NorthernIreland(ExecutiveFormation)Bill That brings me to the final reason as to why we do Report not believe this amendment is necessary or desirable. The purpose of our guidance will be to aid interpretation Relevant document: 59th Report from the Delegated and provide clarity on the approach that the Government Powers Committee will take in relation to enforcement; it will go no further. It will not introduce any additional requirements 3.56 pm or obligations with which circus operators would have to comply. Accordingly, it will be quite different from Amendment 1 not moved. the type of guidance which would usually be statutory, such as the codes of practice that Defra issues under Clause 3: Progress reports the Animal Welfare Act 2006. These codes of practice set out what animal owners should do to meet the Amendment 2 welfare needs of their animals, as required under that Act. They can be used in courts as evidence in cases Moved by Lord Anderson of Ipswich brought before them relating to poor welfare of animals, 2: Clause 3, page 2, line 19, at end insert “, which shall be and as such are rightly subject to parliamentary scrutiny. considered by each House of Parliament in accordance with The Defra guidance on this Bill will merely explain in subsection (2A).” more detail the Government’s view of how the Bill will work in practice. Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB): My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 2 and 3 but I do not intend to The Government feel that, given the circumstances, press Amendment 2, which on reflection adds nothing and the fact that the guidance will explain only what is of substance to Amendment 3. These amendments, already covered by the Bill, non-statutory guidance is which are identical to those moved with cross-party not only desirable but appropriate. As I have said—I support in Committee, provide that Parliament is to think the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, was seeking sit at specified intervals between September and, at the this confirmation—the guidance will be considered latest, December to consider the progress reports already with welfare groups, the police, stakeholders and, in provided for by Clause 3. particular, circuses, and will be published no later than 20 November this year. Amendment 3 serves a useful purpose in the context of this important Bill. As pressure is exerted to reconvene As I have said, if any noble Lords would like to see the Executive, there is every reason for both Houses of a draft copy of the guidance, given that officials are this Parliament to review and interrogate such progress aiming to have a first draft ready for wider circulation as is made.The strong interest of this House in the content by the time the House returns in September, then I of those reports is demonstrated by the amendments would be very pleased to hear from them. I will ensure agreed on Monday and by those which are yet to be that there is an opportunity to comment on the draft. considered today. But the greater significance of I understand the intention of my noble friend’s Amendment 3 lies less in the subject matter of the amendment, but we should now be making speedy debates for which it provides than in the more fundamental process on this legislation. I very much hope that, with fact that Parliament must be in session for such debates the reassurances I have given today to my noble friend to take place. and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, she will feel in a If enacted, these amendments will express Parliament’s position to withdraw her amendment. expectation of being consulted on not just these reports Baroness Fookes: My Lords, as I explained at the but an even more pressing political issue: the future of outset, this was a point of principle about always our relationship with the European Union. If Parliament challenging Governments when they introduce legislation were to endorse a no-deal Brexit, as it has not done to to ensure that they do not go beyond the bounds of date, then from my point of view there could be no what I would call propriety—just taking off into the democratic argument against it. But for that decision sunset with whatever they fancied. I am entirely with to be left to our next Prime Minister, elevated to that the noble Baroness: I have no wish to see this Bill office by members of his own party and freed of any deferred or put at danger in any way whatever, but I requirement to obtain the consent of Parliament, would felt it important to put the point of view that I have be another matter altogether. Before the beginning expressed on the record. of the current leadership campaign, the notion that Prorogation might be used for the express purpose of My noble friend the Minister has also done a very silencing Parliament on Brexit could safely have been good job in reassuring me. He has been kind enough dismissed as fantasy but, extraordinary though it may to make a number of detailed points. As for inviting seem, that prospect has not been disavowed by the anybody who would like to see the draft guidance to leading candidate and, if reports are to be believed, do so, I shall take him up on that at once. Please will cannot even now be ruled out. he let me know when it is available? That may well be the case for other Members of the House, though I The situation is uniquely grave because if we are dare not speak for them. driven over the cliff on 31 October, there is no way back up. An event that occurs while Parliament is prorogued I am grateful to my noble friend for the care he has cannot simply be reversed once Parliament is sitting taken in putting the case for the Government and, in again. So even a short Prorogation, if suitably timed, those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the would permanently deprive Parliament of its voice on amendment. this most significant of political issues. Advice to Her Amendment 1 withdrawn. Majesty to prorogue Parliament in such circumstances 245 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 246 would subvert the principle that the Government are down to 31 October. Whichever side of the referendum accountable to Parliament and present the monarchy debate we were on, we well remember the arguments with a highly unwelcome dilemma: no one could safely about bringing power back to this place. If this device predict the possible consequences. It is not surprising, of not allowing Parliament to sit at a crucial time is therefore, that the Attorney-General is reported to used, it would fly in the face of the assurances and have told Cabinet last month that Prorogation would pleas made at that time. We face an extremely difficult be unconstitutional and improper. My noble friend time: surely, we should be sorting this issue out within Lord Pannick, who cannot be in his place today,described Parliament and not leaving it to others to seek remedy it on Monday as “unlawful” and “a constitutional in the courts. outrage”. The legal effects of Amendment 3 will no doubt Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB): My Lords, it seems to depend on the circumstances. It would be a matter for me that it does not matter whether one supports any court that may be called on to consider the matter. leaving the European Union permanently or remaining Others of your Lordships are better placed to judge in the European Union. That is not the issue before their political force, but that too would surely be the House. The issue is whether Parliament should be substantial. The Minister helpfully accepted on Monday allowed a say on whether we leave by crashing out, that it was right and proper for this House to find a leave with a deal or do not leave. It does not, in a sense, means to hold the future leader of this country to matter which of those three situations it is. What account, but when challenged on his statement that, matters is that Parliament has a voice. For that reason, “there are other means by which it can be done”,—[Official I support this amendment. Report, 15/7/19; col. 38.] explanation came there none. That put me in mind of Baroness Deech (CB): My Lords, they say that Iris Murdoch, who wrote, in a rather different context, Brexit drives people crazy and I think there is something that we can pass, in this. It certainly makes people cerebral. May I put “in a second from the time when it was too early to struggle to the forward a few general points? First, it has been said time when it was too late to struggle”. that Her Majesty might be embarrassed by such a request. Your Lordships now have an opportunity to assert the Her Majesty has been on the Throne for 70 years or so necessary role of Parliament in these strange and and faced many a constitutional crisis. I think she would alarming times. I invite your Lordships to do so by survive. supporting Amendment 3. Secondly, be careful what you wish for. Suppose we Viscount Hailsham (Con): I shall speak very briefly pass this amendment requiring Parliament to meet in to Amendment 3A in this group, which is in my name. October. It is not for the benefit of Northern Ireland. I It might be for the convenience of the House if I say feel rather sorry for the people of Northern Ireland, that it is not my intention to move this amendment, who are being used as a sort of wedge in a door—not largely because it does not add substantially to the for their benefit. Suppose there is a general election in amendment in the name of the noble Lord who just the meantime. Suppose there is a vote of no confidence spoke with great eloquence. Suffice it to say that I very in the Commons. Is it seriously considered that requiring much support his amendment and if he is minded to Parliament to meet in October would take precedence test the opinion of the House, I shall vote in favour over these other events, which may very well occur in of it. the next few weeks? If there is a general election before October, what will happen to the will of some that Lord Newby (LD): My Lords, I think everybody Parliament should meet in the run-up to the possible agrees that this is a very curious device and in many leaving of the European Union? If there is a vote of ways a very curious amendment. I am sure that the no confidence, the same thing might well happen. House of Commons and your Lordships’ House will It seems to me that the constitution is not clear on look forward to receiving regular reports about the what motives have to lie behind the call for a general situation in respect of Northern Ireland; it might help election, the call for a vote of no confidence or the move things forward very marginally. However, as the Prorogation of Parliament. It is a somewhat ambiguous noble Lord, Lord Anderson, said, that is not why this area. The speculation about this has led people to amendment is being proposed. The amendment is believe that it is better placed in the hands of the considered necessary by him and me only because we judges than of politicians. That may well be. I am not face the constitutional outrage of a potential Prime disputing for a moment that the rule of law is upheld Minister refusing to rule out proroguing Parliament to by judicial review and allowing judges to decide. However, get through the most major public policy decision of where an issue is as ambiguous as this, noble Lords our lifetimes without debate, because he knows he should realise what they are doing in putting these cannot win a vote in a debate. This is the activity of a decisions in the hands of judges, who might very well banana republic, not the mother of parliaments; we be summoned to meet in a great hurry; the issue would should do whatever we can, however strange, to stop then be rushed all the way through the courts. We it. This is a clever, ingenious device with that in mind, would be leaving it to judicial wisdom. and it has our full support. A great deal may happen between now and the end of October. It worries me that we should be using Lord Wigley (PC): My Lords, I too support this parliamentary procedure in this way. It would be an amendment, in the context of the European dimension, unfortunate precedent. As I said, think about Motions which has been mentioned. It would indeed be outrageous of no confidence; think about a general election and if Parliament were not sitting when the clock is running the assumption, so readily made, that the notion of 247 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 248

[BARONESS DEECH] a constitutional outrage—which it would be if Parliament Prorogation would be a terrible breach with everything were sent away so that the Prime Minister of the day that has ever happened in the 1,000-year constitution could follow a course that both Houses of Parliament of this country. have consistently and regularly rejected. Moreover, the action of judicial review, which is To add one more point, I hope that the noble already being talked about in this House—somewhat Baroness the Leader—I am sorry she is not in her prematurely—will depend on one wealthy individual place—is pursuing with the other place the proposal bringing that action. Suppose there is a vote of no that we in this House put forward a fortnight ago for a confidence and by some method the Queen is advised Joint Committee to examine the costs and implications that Mr Corbyn should be summoned to form a of a no-deal crash-out. In this House, the Leader Government. Unfortunately, I cannot afford the services represents not just the Government but all of us. We of my noble friend Lord Pannick, but I am sure there put forward the proposal but, to my knowledge, the are those among us and in the country who would say other place has not yet done us the courtesy of even that the possibility of a Prime Minister widely regarded considering it. I hope that the noble Baroness is advancing as an anti-Semite was a constitutional outrage and our proposal and urging the other place to respond must be judicially reviewed. positively to it. I support the amendment. I beg noble Lords to consider what sort of precedent might be set by using the people of Northern Ireland, 4.15 pm speculating on what might happen with judicial review Lord True (Con): My Lords, I spoke against these and not allowing the normal course of events to continue. amendments in Committee, and will not repeat all my To support this amendment will have repercussions arguments. But there are four strands in why I believe way beyond what we might expect this afternoon. that these amendments are unwise and unwanted. Before Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, the noble Baroness, proceeding, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson Lady Deech, reads far too much into this simple —who, again, introduced his amendment with great amendment, which is unambiguous and makes the courtesy, charm and skill—that, on a point of fact, point that power should rest not with the Executive 16 out of 23 Prime Ministers of this country have first but with Parliament. It would require Ministers to report come to office without a general election, as a result of on a Bill’s progress where progress is essential, such as actions within their own party and within Parliament, with this Bill. Of course, most importantly, we should including, I say for the benefit of the Liberals,David Lloyd not give the Prime Minister of a minority Government, George. whoever he may be—let us all, particularly those of us The idea, therefore, that the next Prime Minister on this side of the House, recognise that we are talking would somehow be constitutionally dubious—a about the Prime Minister of a minority Government—the proposition that has been advanced by the noble Lord, opportunity to suspend our constitutional proprieties. Lord Cormack—is, frankly, absurd. I should like to make another point. I deplore the fact that the rules of my party have allowed this Lord Cormack: I did not suggest that it would be decision to be protracted over almost five weeks and improper. I was merely stating a fact. The next Prime to be taken by 0.3% of the electorate, a number of Minister will be a Prime Minister of a minority whom are 15 years of age; they are entirely eligible to Government—as the present Prime Minister is. vote, as I established earlier today. Many people do not realise that; I did not realise it myself until two or three days ago. The party in the country has had great Lord True: The noble Lord also said other things, power—way beyond what any party should have, which the Hansard writers will record, including his particularly when it represents such a tiny percentage saying that somehow a power was being conferred on of the electorate. I believe that the real constitutional Mr Johnson to do something that Mr Johnson has impropriety that the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, never said he would do, which is to advise the monarch seeks to deal with is that of conferring on the Prime to prorogue. That has been an inherent right of the Minister of a minority Government—I repeat: a minority Prime Minister and of the Crown for generations. It Government—the powers to dispense with the services is an absurd statement, I am afraid, by my noble of Parliament and to absolve himself of being answerable friend. to it. As I said on Monday, the Government are The first reason that these amendments should be answerable to Parliament, which must never be the resisted is, of course, one that I share but most of your creature or subject of government. This is a safeguard. Lordships will not: they are clearly designed to frustrate We should support it. one route to Brexit on 31 October. That is freely admitted by all concerned. I can see that that is not a clinching Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB): My noble friend argument with many of your Lordships, and, if we Lady Deech would have made a marvellous Permanent have learned anything in this House, it is that there is a Secretary. We heard about a dangerous precedent, dialogue of the deaf in this place between the remainer unripe time and the risk of judicial review. I cannot see majority who wish to stop at nothing to prevent Brexit that risk; the amendment moved by the noble Lord, and those of us in the minority who believe that the Lord Anderson, seems designed to reduce the risk of a vote of the public should be respected. situation that might go to judicial review arising. I fear that your Lordships’ House is getting itself I support the noble Lord’s amendment. As he said, into a worse and worse place in resisting Brexit. The it is strange and alarming that we should find ourselves very future of your Lordships’ House is now in play. in this situation, having to resort to a device to prevent That was made clear, not by me, but in the recent 249 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 250 campaign for the European elections. I think these into these two camps? Secondly—I am sure that this is amendments take us to the outer fringe of where an unparliamentary—I cannot see the point of what the unelected House should go. noble Lord is saying. He is ranging so far across this The second strand of why I think they should be debate that he is losing sight of the very simple amendment rejected is this canard of “constitutional outrage”, et before us, and he is not taking the House with him. I cetera. This is an Aunt Sally.Mr Johnson—its target—has can think only that he is doing this for the newspapers never said that he would use Prorogation to secure Brexit or for—I do not know; do we have constituents? on 31 October. This danger, this threat, this crisis, this calamity, this catastrophe, this outrage—it is all got up Lord True: My Lords, I admitted at the outset that I by the remainers. am unlikely to take this House with me. However, there Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab): What the are certain things that someone who has the privilege, noble Lord says is clearly true, and I do not dispute it. right and duty to be in Parliament and come to this place However, Mr Johnson has been invited on a number has the right and duty to say. While I may be saying of occasions to say specifically, in terms, that he would things that are not congenial to many in this House, not use that device, and he has declined to do so. they are not disagreed with by some people in this country. Would the noble Lord agree that that is the case? It is germane to point out certain facts about the Labour Party—a party that will campaign to remain Lord True: I think in life it is never good to answer in any election or referendum provoked by a Conservative the question, “Have you stopped beating your wife?”. Government, but which will campaign to leave in the The incoming Prime Minister—I will come to this unlikely event that it ever forms a Government. Brexit point later. on Monday, remain on Tuesday, Brexit on Wednesday, will not say on Thursday, does not have a clue on Noble Lords: Oh! Outrageous! Friday—that is the official policy of that apology of an Opposition on this great question of our times. Lord True: Outrageous? Let us be grown-up here. The third strand of my argument against this Everybody understands the purport of the remark. amendment is that by floating claims that only use of Mr Johnson does not wish to prorogue Parliament. He the royal prerogative could secure Brexit and that has not said so, and he does not need to, because, Mr Johnson wants to do that, it is not him but the following the Gina Miller case, there has been an Act peddlers of that canard who risk dragging the monarchy of Parliament, passed by this Parliament, in this Session, into political controversy.Prorogation is perfectly normal requiring the UK by statute to leave the EU, as requested after a Session so long, a new gracious Speech is by the British people, on 31 October. It is simply normal, with the formation of a new ministry, and, rubbish to say that there might be an attempt stop heaven knows, we can surely do better than the ragbag Parliament legislating on Brexit. Parliament has already of legislation and off home before dinner that has legislated, and talk about a so-called unlawful shutdown been the staple of both Houses lately. At some point, a of Parliament or hyperbole about a ban on Parliament new Prime Minister must be able to seek a Prorogation sitting reflects nothing Mr Johnson has ever said. It is and a gracious Speech. That is the right and proper so much chaff thrown up by the ditchers among the routine of our parliamentary life, and why should more extreme referendum deniers. Mr Johnson be asked to deny himself that right? It If Parliament wishes to stop Brexit, the route is does no service to that incontestable fact to besmirch open: a vote of no confidence in the Government, and the act of Prorogation as if it was some kind of shabby the installation of a new Government. That new and little-known political manoeuvre. All of us, on every Government can turn to the British people and say, as side of the argument, have a duty to show restraint in I often hear people say in this House, “Sorry,17.4 million, relation to the role of the Crown. As I said in Committee, you are stupid, you did not know what you were I cannot conceive how the courts could, or wisely voting for, you do not understand the facts as we should, construe the motive for the advice given by a clever people do, so, sorry, Brexit is off”. If you want Prime Minister to a Sovereign in a private audience. I to change the policy and say that and do that to the would rather we did not go there. We have the right to British people, change the Government. That is the do many things in life, but we have the duty to ask proper way to proceed. ourselves sometimes, “Is it wise?”. It is indicative of the state of the Labour Party—the Here is the fourth and final strand of why I object consistent deliverer, as I said the other day, of 220 votes to these amendments—the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, in Division after Division in the other place—that put his finger on it on Monday. What on earth are we instead of taking that open and honest course, challenging doing here, discussing all this on a Bill that relates the Government in a vote of no confidence, it footles narrowly to the future of the Northern Ireland Executive? around in the small print of a Northern Ireland Bill, Only last week Your Lordships’Constitution Committee, shuffling courageously sideways under the genial cloak to which I have the honour to belong, restated our provided by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and into concern—we all assented to the report, including the the arms of the Liberal Democrats, who, given half a noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who is not in his place—about chance, would snuff Labour out. the persistent fast-tracking of legislation on Northern Ireland. Yet here we are, not only fast-tracking a Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): I would like Northern Ireland Bill but trying to festoon it like a to make two points. First, I voted for Brexit, not for a Christmas tree with barely related measures which have no-deal Brexit, and that must be true for a lot of other never properly been considered. That is a bad way to people. Can the noble Lord please stop dividing us treat Parliament— 251 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 252

Baroness Altmann (Con): May I put to my noble I had thought that on this issue we were approaching friend some alternatives to his four points? This something like unanimity that it would be constitutionally amendment is not about stopping Brexit but about improper and wrong in principle to suspend Parliament preventing the use of Parliament to force through a in order to push through the final stages of the Brexit means of Brexit which has been expressly rejected by arrangements without Parliament being in a position to this House and which has no democratic mandate. If oversee, comment on or effectively have any role in that. our future leaders have refused to rule out doing that, Those who have said that this would be wrong are not this is something which we in this House are faced only Cross-Benchers—the noble Lord, Lord Anderson with having to do, reluctantly. Prorogation is normal of Ipswich, made it very clear, in an extremely good in Parliament, but will my noble friend recognise the speech, why that was so—but others on this side of the difference between Prorogation in order to force through House, such as the Liberal Democrats, as well as many something that has been expressly rejected by Parliament distinguished Members of the Conservative Party. We rather than the normal means? all know about Sir John Major’s statement that he would judicially review an attempt to push through Lord True: I did not count how many words there Brexit without a deal, and the noble Lord, Lord Howard, were in her conditional thing about “expressly used to has been reported as saying that it would be wrong force through something that has been rejected by and a “very bad idea” to suspend Parliament, and I Parliament, blah blah blah”, if I may say so, with respectfully and fully agree with him. respect. That is a construct that was created, and we As I said in the debate on Monday, none of this have heard it from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. It is means that the amendment would stop Brexit taking not possible to construe what the motive of a Prime place. There is, as others continually remind us, existing Minister in a private audience might be for seeking a legislation. What is more, we cannot unilaterally stop Prorogation. I do not think we should ask the courts our departure on 31 October because, as a matter of to do that, although we have the right to do so. On her international law, unless that is extended by agreement other point, we have statute. This is not about stopping between the EU and ourselves we will leave on that Parliament legislating. I tried to make this point earlier: date. But that does not mean that Parliament should after the Gina Miller case, Parliament legislated. We not have a role in what takes place. It can change are leaving the European Union, and in law we are its mind. It can do many things, including change the leaving on 31 October. I am afraid her arguments do law. It would be grossly wrong—a perversion of our not stand up. constitutional traditions—and irresponsible, in my view, I want to finish, and that will please noble Lords. I to prevent Parliament being able to present, comment, believe it is a bad way to treat Parliament to festoon a oversee, supervise and, if it so chooses, take other fast-tracked Bill with extraneous matters such as this. action. That, and nothing else, is what this amendment In my submission, it is a particularly insulting way, in is about. this case, to treat the good people of Northern Ireland. Of course, the incoming Prime Minister—let us They deserve far better than having their future provision assume it is Mr Johnson—may wish to proceed without made the plaything of others with other axes to grind. further inconvenience from Parliament. Let him persuade This is a Bill about the formation of a Northern Parliament of that. Let him persuade Parliament that Ireland Executive, which we all very much wish to see. the route he has chosen will succeed. That is what We should return to that. parliamentarians should do and what we should do in Amendments such as those before us were rejected a democracy. He cannot and should not adopt a in the House of Commons. Elected Members have royalist approach, as King Charles did. That is what had their say on this matter. Are your Lordships really we are trying to prevent, and so many Members of going to reopen all this and slug it out on this Bill—this this House are concerned about that. It is Parliament Northern Ireland Bill—day after day on a fast track in that safeguards our freedoms and ensures that we an undignified ping-pong to provide a battlefield for remain a free land; that is how we do our democracy. hardline remainers and devoted respecters of the people’s To allow that to be set aside would be wrong. choice? Surely we can do better than that. Let us dispense with this parliamentary chicanery, reject these 4.30 pm amendments and deal with the important business relating to Northern Ireland. The Commons rejected It is said that Mr Johnson has not said he wants to the amendments. Let us do the same and move on to do this, but he was given a clear invitation from this the business in the Long Title of the Bill. House on Monday to say clearly that he would not. He was invited to telephone the Minister. I look Lord Goldsmith (Lab): My Lords, as I said on forward to hearing in his speech, which he will make in Monday, I reject the idea that this amendment does a few moments, whether he received such a phone call. not have an important impact on Northern Ireland I suspect he did not—otherwise we would not still be too, not only because it ensures that the supervision debating this amendment—but that is the way to deal and reporting provisions that are now in the Bill can with that; it could be done. Obviously,I hope Mr Johnson be considered constructively by Parliament, but because— does not intend to suspend Parliament. He has many and who has forgotten this?—Northern Ireland has other ways of making clear to the EU what our future been at the centre of all the debates that we have had should be, but let us not lock the mother of parliaments in this House about Brexit. The possibility that we out of debate by a procedural device. should be forced to leave without a deal, I would have I have listened carefully to those who have spoken thought we would all agree, is one that deeply affects against this. The noble Lord, Lord True, spoke at the people of Northern Ireland. length on Monday; I have not heard anything new in 253 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 254 his arguments. I listened intently to the noble Baroness, The amendments touch on much deeper issues Lady Deech, whom I respect, but I did not hear any than I am normally called on to talk about. It will not argument there that carried the day, as far as I was come as a surprise to the noble and learned Lord, concerned. Ultimately, she was concerned that there Lord Goldsmith, that I have not received a call from would be an abuse by passing this amendment. I Mr Johnson. Who knows? I might receive one next respectfully say to her that the abuse would be if we week. Who knows what is going on at this particular allowed a situation in which Prorogation could be moment. used for a wrong purpose simply to push through The important thing for me to stress today—and I something that Parliament is opposed to. do not think it is labouring the point—is that we need I therefore hope that noble Lords will support the to be sure that when we speak of Northern Ireland we amendment if the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, decides are clear in the message that we are sending to the to divide the House. I hope he will, and if he does we people of that Province. The message that we send will follow him. today with this particular suite of amendments is a simple one, which is that we can use Northern Ireland The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern for different purposes when we choose to do so. I Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of know that the rest of the debate will focus very significantly Springbank) (Con): My Lords, we have begun a on the serious issues of Northern Ireland, but we have debate today on the extension of Executive formation not started that part yet. This part is about a constitutional opportunities in Northern Ireland. I take the opportunity question and, as a number of noble Lords have said, it to return our focus to Northern Ireland for a brief is about Brexit. So be it. I cannot change the motion in moment. I do so recognising that precious few of the which we have moved in this particular direction. But noble Lords who have thus far spoken chose to focus a number of noble Lords have expressed their views on Northern Ireland today.There have recently become on different sides. For me, the key thing is to keep us a remarkable number of experts on Northern Ireland, focused on the important aspect, which is the delivery but it appears they are not here during this part of the of an Executive in Northern Ireland. That must be our discussion. principal aim. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord to It is no surprise that this is a challenging time for withdraw his amendment. Northern Ireland. It had been our hope that by the coming August we would have secured a resolution Lord Goldsmith: We all hope that the Minister and brought the parties together in such a way that an receives a call next week, whether from Mr Johnson or Executive could have been formed. I believe we are Mr Hunt. We want to see him back in that place. But moving in the right direction; I now genuinely believe does he not agree that for the people of Northern that there are real prospects of doing so. Ireland, whom I know—although maybe not as much as the Minister—because I was Attorney-General for This Bill has a very simple purpose. As it began its Northern Ireland for six years, the consequences of a journey, it was simple and in very few paragraphs. We no-deal Brexit, which have been widely described as so need a little more time, and the ambition is to extend damaging, would be just as bad for them as for the rest that to 21 October, with a possible extension thereafter of the United Kingdom? into January to allow for that Executive to re-form. The request for updates on the talks in Northern Lord Duncan of Springbank: The aspect of a no-deal Ireland is important; I do not doubt that for a moment. Brexit that has been discussed here is an important The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, rightly one and has been discussed on a number of occasions says that Northern Ireland has been at the centre of so in your Lordships’ House and in the other place. It is much of Brexit, but I must draw a distinction between important to Northern Ireland: I do not doubt that Northern Ireland at the centre of Brexit as the border because I have seen it myself. I recognise and have said question has played through and the talks themselves. on more than one occasion how important it is and They need to be recognised as being in two different how different it would have been had an Executive categories, and it is important to do so. been in place during this period, when those voices A number of noble Lords—not least the noble could have been part of a wider debate. There is not a Lord, Lord Anderson, who opened the debate—said single person who does not regret the fact that those that this is really not just about the reports. The debate voices have been silent for far too long when we could that followed expressly shows that it is not just about have had them contributing, not least on the question those reports. He quoted Iris Murdoch. I am a big fan of the Irish border. But we are talking today about a of Iris Murdoch. I was reading her book not long ago. simple and focused aspect, which is extending the Thinking about these reports coming in in small doses, window during which there shall be no elections in there is a quote from The Sea, The Sea: order to secure a newly formed Executive. That is the “One of the secrets of a happy life is continuous small treats”. key to the discussions today and should be the focus. I Whether these reports will be continuous small treats am also very happy to get a call from Mr Hunt. remains to be seen. My fear is that those reports will The important thing to stress now is that at this not show a great deal because the discussions within point, I do not believe that the amendment takes us in that room are not particularly useful for wider debate the right direction. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord, at this time. But I dearly hope that we do not need this Lord Anderson, to withdraw his amendment. extension and that we will return to normal government in Northern Ireland. But I fear right now that it would Lord Anderson of Ipswich: I am most grateful to all be remiss of us as a Government if we did not seek noble Lords who have spoken and in particular to the to extend. Minister for his courteous response, I do not think 255 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 256

[LORD ANDERSON OF IPSWICH] Clancarty, E. Irvine of Lairg, L. that we should prolong things by hearing any more Clark of Windermere, L. Janke, B. from me. The issues are clear. I do not propose to press Clarke of Hampstead, L. Jolly, B. Amendment 2, but I want to test the opinion of the Clement-Jones, L. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Collins of Highbury, L. Jones of Moulsecoomb, B. House on Amendment 3. Cormack, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Cotter, L. Jones, L. Amendment 2 withdrawn. Coussins, B. Kennedy of Cradley, B. Crawley, B. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Crisp, L. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Amendment 3 Cumberlege, B. Kerslake, L. Moved by Lord Anderson of Ipswich Cunningham of Felling, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Davidson of Glen Clova, L. Kinnock, L. 3: Clause 3, page 2, line 20, leave out subsection (2) and Davies of Oldham, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. insert— Desai, L. Kramer, B. “(2A) The Secretary of State must make arrangements Devon, E. Lawrence of Clarendon, B. for— Dholakia, L. Layard, L. (a) a copy of each report published under subsection Donaghy, B. Lea of Crondall, L. (1) to be laid before each House of Parliament by Donoughue, L. Lee of Trafford, L. the end of the day on which it is published, Doocey, B. Lennie, L. Drake, B. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. (b) a motion in neutral terms, to the effect that the D’Souza, B. Liddle, L. House of Commons has considered the report, to Dubs, L. Lipsey, L. be moved in the House of Commons by a Minister Dykes, L. Lister of Burtersett, B. of the Crown, and Elder, L. Listowel, E. (c) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the Evans of Watford, L. Lisvane, L. report to be tabled in the House of Lords and Falkland, V. Livermore, L. moved by a Minister of the Crown. Falkner of Margravine, B. Livingston of Parkhead, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Low of Dalston, L. (2B) The motions required under subsections (2A)(b) and Featherstone, B. Luce, L. (c) must be moved in the relevant House by a Minister of Finkelstein, L. Ludford, B. the Crown within the period of five calendar days beginning Finlay of Llandaff, B. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. with the end of the day on which the report is laid before Ford, B. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Parliament.” Foster of Bath, L. L. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Macpherson of Earl’s Court, Amendment 3A (to Amendment 3) not moved. Fox, L. L. Gale, B. Maddock, B. 4.39 pm Garden of Frognal, B. Mar, C. Giddens, L. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Division on Amendment 3 Glasgow, E. L. Goddard of Stockport, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Contents 272; Not-Contents 169. [The Tellers for the Golding, B. Massey of Darwen, B. Not-Contents reported 169 votes; the Clerks recorded Goldsmith, L. McAvoy, L. [Teller] Gordon of Strathblane, L. McDonagh, B. 168 names.] Grantchester, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Greaves, L. McIntosh of Pickering, B. Amendment 3 agreed. Grender, B. McKenzie of Luton, L. Grey-Thompson, B. McNally, L. Division No. 1 Grocott, L. Meacher, B. Hailsham, V. Monks, L. CONTENTS Hain, L. Morgan, L. Aberdare, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Hamwee, B. Morris of Aberavon, L. Addington, L. B. Hannay of Chiswick, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. Adonis, L. Boothroyd, B. Hanworth, V. Morris of Yardley, B. Harris of Haringey, L. Newby, L. Alderdice, L. Bowles of Berkhamsted, B. Bowness, L. Harris of Richmond, B. Newcastle, Bp. Altmann, B. Haskel, L. Northbrook, L. Boycott, B. Amos, B. Haskins, L. Northover, B. Bragg, L. Anderson of Ipswich, L. Hastings of Scarisbrick, L. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. Anderson of Swansea, L. Brennan, L. Haworth, L. Oates, L. Andrews, B. Brinton, B. Hayman, B. O’Neill of Bengarve, B. Brookeborough, V. Arbuthnot of Edrom, L. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Brookman, L. Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Osamor, B. Browne of Ladyton, L. Armstrong of Ilminster, L. Henig, B. Paddick, L. Bruce of Bennachie, L. Bakewell, B. Heseltine, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Bryan of Partick, B. Barker, B. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Parekh, L. Bull, B. Bassam of Brighton, L. Hollick, L. Parminter, B. Burnett, L. Hollins, B. Pendry, L. Beecham, L. Burt of Solihull, B. Hope of Craighead, L. Pinnock, B. Benjamin, B. Butler-Sloss, B. Howe of Idlicote, B. Pitkeathley, B. Berkeley, L. Campbell of Pittenweem, L. Hoyle, L. Primarolo, B. Best, L. Campbell-Savours, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Prosser, B. Bilimoria, L. Carter of Coles, L. Humphreys, B. Purvis of Tweed, L. Birt, L. Cavendish of Little Venice, B. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Puttnam, L. Black of Brentwood, L. Chakrabarti, B. Hussain, L. Quin, B. Blackstone, B. Chandos, V. Hussein-Ece, B. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Blunkett, L. Chidgey, L. Hylton, L. Rebuck, B. Boateng, L. Christopher, L. Inglewood, L. Rennard, L. 257 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 258

Ricketts, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Hogan-Howe, L. Patel, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Taylor of Goss Moor, L. Holmes of Richmond, L. Pickles, L. Robertson of Port Ellen, L. Teverson, L. Hooper, B. Pidding, B. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. Horam, L. Popat, L. Rooker, L. Thornton, B. Howard of Lympne, L. Price, L. Rosser, L. Tomlinson, L. Howe, E. Randall of Uxbridge, L. Sawyer, L. Tonge, B. Howell of Guildford, L. Rawlings, B. Scott of Needham Market, B. Tope, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Reay, L. Scriven, L. Trees, L. James of Blackheath, L. Redfern, B. Sharkey, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Truscott, L. Ridley, V. Sheehan, B. Keen of Elie, L. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] Sherlock, B. Kilclooney, L. Risby, L. Shipley, L. Turnberg, L. Kirkhope of Harrogate, L. Robathan, L. Shutt of Greetland, L. Tyler of Enfield, B. Laming, L. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Simon, V. Tyler, L. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Singh of Wimbledon, L. Uddin, B. Lansley, L. Sassoon, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Leigh of Hurley, L. Seccombe, B. Smith of Finsbury, L. Walmsley, B. Lexden, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Smith of Newnham, B. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Lindsay, E. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Snape, L. Watkins of Tavistock, B. Lingfield, L. Sheikh, L. Soley, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Liverpool, E. Sherbourne of Didsbury, L. St John of Bletso, L. Waverley, V. Lucas, L. Shinkwin, L. Stair, E. Wheatcroft, B. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Shrewsbury, E. Steel of Aikwood, L. Wheeler, B. Magan of Castletown, L. Skidelsky, L. Stern, B. Whitaker, B. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Smith of Hindhead, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Wigley, L. Manzoor, B. Stedman-Scott, B. Stirrup, L. Willetts, L. Marland, L. Sterling of Plaistow, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Williams of Elvel, L. Marlesford, L. Strathclyde, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Wills, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. Sugg, B. Storey, L. Wilson of Dinton, L. McCrea of Magherafelt and Suri, L. Strasburger, L. Wood of Anfield, L. Cookstown, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Stunell, L. Woolmer of Leeds, L. McGregor-Smith, B. [Teller] Suttie, B. Wrigglesworth, L. McInnes of Kilwinning, L. Tebbit, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Young of Hornsey, B. Meyer, B. Trefgarne, L. Taverne, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Montrose, D. Trimble, L. Morris of Bolton, B. True, L. Morrow, L. Ullswater, V. NOT CONTENTS Moynihan, L. Vere of Norbiton, B. Agnew of Oulton, L. Deech, B. Naseby, L. Verma, B. Anelay of St Johns, B. Deighton, L. Nash, L. Wakeham, L. Arran, E. Dixon-Smith, L. Neville-Jones, B. Wasserman, L. Ashton of Hyde, L. Duncan of Springbank, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, Whitby, L. Astor of Hever, L. Dunlop, L. B. Wilcox, B. Attlee, E. Eames, L. Noakes, B. Williams of Trafford, B. Balfe, L. Eaton, B. Norton of Louth, L. Wilson of Tillyorn, L. Barran, B. Elton, L. O’Cathain, B. Wyld, B. Bates, L. Empey, L. O’Shaughnessy, L. Young of Cookham, L. Berridge, B. Erroll, E. Oxburgh, L. Younger of Leckie, V. Blackwood of North Oxford, Evans of Bowes Park, B. B. Fairfax of Cameron, L. 4.55 pm Bloomfield of Hinton Fairhead, B. Waldrist, B. Farmer, L. Bourne of Aberystwyth, L. Faulks, L. Amendment 4 Brabazon of Tara, L. Fookes, B. Brougham and Vaux, L. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Brown of Eaton-under- Framlingham, L. Moved by Baroness Butler-Sloss Heywood, L. Fraser of Corriegarth, L. 4: Clause 3, page 3, line 32, at end insert— Browne of Belmont, L. Freeman, L. Buscombe, B. Gardiner of Kimble, L. “( ) The report under subsection (1) must include a report to Byford, B. Garel-Jones, L. be published on or before 4 September 2019 on progress Caine, L. Garnier, L. on the arrangements for appointing independent guardians Caithness, E. Geddes, L. under section 21 of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation Callanan, L. Glenarthur, L. (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Carrington of Fulham, L. Glendonbrook, L. Ireland) 2015. The report must cover— Cathcart, E. Goldie, B. Cavendish of Furness, L. Goodlad, L. (a) the number of children for whom an independent Chalker of Wallasey, B. Grade of Yarmouth, L. guardian has been appointed— Chartres, L. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. (i) for whom a reference has been made to a competent Chisholm of Owlpen, B. Greenway, L. authority for a determination as to whether the Colgrain, L. Hamilton of Epsom, L. child is a victim of trafficking in human beings; and Colwyn, L. Hanham, B. Cope of Berkeley, L. Haselhurst, L. (ii) who have been determined to be a separated child Courtown, E. [Teller] Hayward, L. by the Regional Health and Social Care Board; Craig of Radley, L. Helic, B. (b) the immigration status of the children for whom an Craigavon, V. Henley, L. independent guardian has been appointed; Crathorne, L. Hodgson of Abinger, B. Curry of Kirkharle, L. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, (c) the length of time for which an independent De Mauley, L. L. guardian assists, represents and supports a child; 259 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 260

(d) the number of persons for whom an independent children who have been trafficked with someone who guardian has continued to act in relation to a person will support, advocate for, represent and accompany after that person attains the age of 18 but is under them as they try to find their place in our communities the age of 21, with the consent of that person, according to section 21(10) of that Act; while dealing with complex immigration processes, unfamiliar schooling and child protection systems, as (e) the processes established to ensure relevant persons or bodies recognise and pay due regard to the functions well as, sometimes, police investigations. of the independent guardian and provide the 5 pm independent guardian with access to relevant information in accordance with section 21(8) of that Northern Ireland is ahead of England and Wales Act and the effectiveness of those processes.” here, in that Section 21 of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, in moving Act (Northern Ireland) 2015 that provides independent Amendment 4 I will speak also to Amendment 10, guardians is in force, with a duty for such support to which is consequential upon it. I declare my interests be provided across the whole of Northern Ireland. as in the register, which include my position as co-chair Regrettably, in England and Wales, the equivalent of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Human section of the Modern Slavery Act 2015 regarding the Trafficking and Modern Slavery. similarly named independent child trafficking advocates There is a good Northern Ireland Act on modern has not yet commenced, and support is available thus slavery, human trafficking and exploitation, but it does far in only one-third of local authorities. not include one aspect of the Modern Slavery Act 2015: However, at present there is no published assessment that is, the child trafficking advocate, popularly called on the implementation of the legislation on independent the independent guardian. It seems an odd omission guardians in Northern Ireland, or on whether all the because, following the research done by Bedfordshire necessary powers or resources are in place for the role University,the Government accepted that the independent to be effective. I believe that that would be very useful child trafficking advocates are doing a good job. A for professionals in Northern Ireland, and for what number of pilot schemes are out across England and can be learned in the rest of the UK, especially with Wales—there is a similar system in Scotland —and the regard to those aspects which go beyond what is Government are committed to putting this right across provided in England and Wales, such as support beyond the country in due course. So it is highly desirable and the age of 18. seems entirely uncontroversial that there should be I hope that the Minister shares my perspective and similar independent guardians to look after those will join me and the noble and learned Baroness, children brought into Northern Ireland from abroad, Lady Butler-Sloss, in supporting these amendments. who have been slaves and who need the support of a They will provide information that will have a positive mentor as they go through a process equivalent to the impact on the support provided to child victims of NRM and through the general process of coping with trafficking in Northern Ireland and in England and having been a slave and having emerged from that. Wales. Having had a discussion with the Minister,I understand that there are some practical difficulties in Northern Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, I will comment briefly Ireland with a lack of guardians. The short answer on this issue. It is a very important one, but there are to that, it seems to me, is that more guardians should some difficulties. Before I get on to those, I hope that be appointed. I do not wish to embarrass either the the noble Lord will support my amendment later this Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom Government evening about unaccompanied child refugees in Northern by pressing this amendment to a vote, but I do ask the Ireland. At the moment, because Stormont is not in Minister to keep this under review and see that, as soon action, it is impossible for unaccompanied child refugees as the Executive and Assembly are up and running—which to be referred to Northern Ireland, although I know I am sure we in this House all hope will be relatively the very hospitable people there would like to see this soon after this very long gap—we will have more happen. There is a blockage at the moment because of guardians, who should become part of the system in the impasse at Stormont. Northern Ireland. I beg to move. Having said that, I will turn to the substance of the argument about guardians. I talk not only about young Lord Morrow (DUP): My Lords, I would like to people who have been trafficked and exploited but make some brief comments on this modest amendment. about child refugees generally. The idea of a guardian It provides an excellent companion report to that is a good one, because these people face a whole range already required by the Bill regarding the support of issues, having gone through appalling experiences, offered to victims of human trafficking in Northern and nobody is there to pull everything together. Social Ireland, after they have been confirmed to be a victim workers may do some of this, but the range of issues is by the national referral mechanism known as the wider than might be susceptible to social worker NRM. I look forward to the report that will be produced intervention. That is where guardians come in, who on the progress made to implement the provision take a holistic approach to the needs of the individual enabling extended support, and the debate that will, of young person and can then intervene, help and mobilise course, follow as a result. other agencies. So I think it is a good idea. Similarly, I support Amendments 4 and 10 because The difficulty is this. As I understand it, there are here also there is much that could be learned for some guardians in Northern Ireland and some in England and Wales from examining the independent Scotland. They tend to be social workers with at least guardian service in Northern Ireland. This service is five years’ professional experience. These people are designed to provide separated migrant children and pretty hard to come by. I have talked to local authority 261 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 262 leaders in London, who say they would love to do this, trafficking, noting, as I said, the need to approach but they do not have enough qualified social workers sensitively. We should not cut across devolved powers with the right experience to take on that responsibility. but, given the importance of this issue, it is reasonable I am aware of the difficulty. It is a good idea. If we can for the Secretary of State to provide a report to find a way of dealing with resourcing difficulties, fine. Parliament. However, I ask the noble Lord not to We could start with young people about whom there is press Amendment 10, on debating the report. I am evidence that they have been trafficked or exploited happy to meet the noble and learned Baroness or the more than most child refugees. I would like the Minister noble Lord to discuss the report when it is published. to be positive about child refugees in Northern Ireland It would be most unusual for obligations to debate generally later on. reports to be placed on the Government by primary legislation. As this is a devolved matter, I am happy to Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab): My Lords, this is an example facilitate a meeting between the noble and learned of the fact that a number of things which would Baroness and Northern Ireland’s Department of Health normally be dealt with by the Executive have become for a detailed discussion of its work in this area, as its sufficiently urgent to be considered. This seems to be a staff are the experts in this devolved work. Based on sensible idea—and, as I understand it, the Minister is that explanation and commitment, I hope the noble going to produce appropriate warm words. Lord and the noble and learned Baroness will feel unable to put this to a vote. Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con): My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, Baroness Butler-Sloss: I am very grateful to those for her brief introduction, and other noble Lords for who have spoken in this short debate, and to the their remarks, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. Minister, who I spoke to briefly before we started. I Ensuring that victims of human trafficking receive entirely understand the issues he has raised. As I said the support and care they require is an important in opening, I do not intend to divide the House on this issue,which this Government take seriously.It is important issue. I am, however, concerned that a system of child that the right safeguards and checks are in place to protect trafficking advocates in this country is working well this group of people. This is also true in Northern and will eventually come straight across the country, Ireland, where independent guardians must be qualified and the Government are committed to that. Consequently, social workers with at least five years’ post-qualifying it would be highly desirable for there to be enough experience of working with children and families, as guardians in Northern Ireland for this to be provided the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said. Our approach in this for those children who are as vulnerable in Northern space needs to be guided by the principle of ensuring Ireland as they are in this country. However, having that we do not expose these vulnerable people, or the had assurances, together with the generous offer to excellent individuals who care for them, to harm. discuss this with the Minister and the Minister for As I said in Committee, noble Lords will be aware Health, which I and the noble Lord, Lord McColl, that these are matters for which responsibility in Northern will be glad to take up, I beg leave to withdraw the Ireland has been devolved, therefore falling outside amendment. the responsibilities and scope of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. In line with the principles of Amendment 4 withdrawn. devolution, it is the Government’s view that those Northern Ireland departments charged with responsibility Amendment 5 for these matters should be accountable not to Westminster Moved by Lord Empey but to the Northern Ireland Assembly. However, the Government acknowledge that if it is the will of 5: Clause 3, page 4, line 2, at end insert— Parliament that the Secretary of State should report “( ) The Secretary of State must, on or before 21 October 2019, on these issues, the Northern Ireland Office will engage publish a report on progress on the establishment of a Renewable Heat Incentive Hardship Unit in the Department with relevant Northern Ireland departments to ensure for the Economy (unless an Executive has already been that she is able to do so, as far as possible, in a formed).” meaningful way, where information is available. I hope this provides a degree of reassurance for the noble and Lord Empey (UUP): My Lords, I have tabled learned Baroness. Amendments 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9. They may not be in the I also wish to advise on the limitations of the same order as they were in Committee, but they cover Secretary of State’s capacity to report comprehensively the same areas of substance. I draw the attention of on matters of devolved competence, and to emphasise the House to one change. Members may recall that in that it may not always be possible to make available a discussion on these amendments in Committee, the the required information. We must approach these noble Lord, Lord Hain, who is not in his place, issues carefully,and with heightened sensitivity.Releasing indicated that children’s health had been omitted from information in relation to the number of children this list. It was after a discussion involving him that supported by an independent guardian could, given the Minister was happy to include a reference to the theverysmallnumberof individualsinvolved,compromise waiting times for children, as well as on other matters. their identities. Clearly, this is not the intention of this I have drawn to the attention of this House on a amendment, but it is a risk we must be aware of and number of occasions the serious delays in the Northern mitigate. Ireland health service. It has reached a stage where, We can accept Amendment 4, on the introduction last week, the Nuffield Trust produced a damning of a requirement to report on the work of independent report on the length of time for which people had to guardians in Northern Ireland for victims of human wait. Their health, welfare and quality of life have 263 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 264

[LORD EMPEY] cannot be implemented. It is just sitting there because been dramatically affected by this, and I have no doubt no Minister is in place. That is not the fault of the whatever that life expectancy,and life itself, have suffered Front Bench in the House today. I understand that, and been extinguished while people have been waiting but the facts are the facts. I hope that the parties will on these lists. There are enough noble Lords in this yet surprise us and come up with an arrangement—sooner place, particularly those from the medical profession, rather than later. But in the event that that does not who know the dangers of delay in cancer diagnosis. happen, even on humanitarian grounds we owe it to The breast cancer waiting times for one of the trusts people to ensure that the strategy at least begins to be last year were absolutely outrageous. Noble Lords implemented, so that the departments can take steps should think of the anxiety and suffering in a family to alleviate a serious problem. when that situation arises. I hardly need to draw any clearer a picture. 5.15 pm I shall deal with other matters, such as the renewable Amendment 9 deals with something that is not heat incentive hardship unit; the Minister, the noble immediately upon us, which is why it would insert a Lord, Lord Duncan, gave an undertaking in March date of 1 December this year for a report. This is that it would be established. While some steps have because certain mitigations on welfare support measures been taken, they have been faltering and insufficient, are covered financially until the end of March next and rely purely on a European Union ruling that it is year, but difficulties would be created in the absence of able to offer loans for only six months at commercial their renewal. Perhaps I may deal with what we call the rates, which is absolutely pointless and of no value bedroom tax. I am totally of the view that it is right to whatever to the people on this scheme who have found try as best one can to match the size of a property to themselves, through no fault of their own, in dire the occupants, so that we do not have vast numbers of financial straits. empty,half-used properties. However,you cannot ensure that people will move into single-room accommodation I also point out that the purpose of this scheme was if it is not there. That is the problem we are confronted to encourage people to move from the use of fossil by. If people are in the later years of their lives, you fuels to the use of renewables. That was the objective, cannot simply uproot somebody in their 70s or 80s and but what do we have today? I was speaking to a boiler try to force them into the private rented sector if there operator the week before last and he has gone back to just is not the public sector accommodation available. oil. This is happening in other areas, so what has happened? We have taken a sum of public money and We need to look closely at this because, in the put it into a scheme, the objective of which was to absence of a local Minister combining housing policy provide renewable energy to reduce our carbon footprint. with welfare policy, which is what should be done, in So, what have we done? We have got many of the our system that is just not working. I hope that those people who took up that scheme into serious financial matters will come forward by December and that, in trouble and just left them sitting there. We are now the absence of an Executive, we do not do the usual back to the stage where fossil fuels are their only thing and leave it until the middle of March—a fortnight option and they are back to using them. The money from the end of the financial year—so that a whole has been completely wasted and people have been put crisis and another piece of rushed legislation are coming into dire straits in the meantime. through. The date of 1 December 2019 is in Amendment 9, which gives time for the Government to discuss with I know it is difficult for Ministers here to have their the Northern Ireland departments. It also gives time will in Northern Ireland departments over which they for us to plan ahead and means that if legislation is have no direct control—that point was made in the required, there will be at least three months in which debate—but this issue will not go away. There are to insert it and get it done, rather than having last- quite a number of noble Lords in this House who will minute—or five-minutes-to-midnight—legislation coming persist with this until we get justice for the people who through. That is the purpose of my amendments and I have, through no fault of their own, found themselves beg to move Amendment 5. in dire financial straits. I hope that the amendment will focus attention as we go through. The Earl of Listowel (CB): My Lords, I welcome On Amendment 6, the noble Lord, Lord Black of Amendment 7, as tabled by my friend, the noble Lord, Brentwood, made a very impressive contribution in Lord Empey, as a trustee of the mental health service Committee on Monday, but the Government did not for adolescents which is the Brent Centre for Young feel able to accept his amendment. However, we know People in north London, as noted in my entry in the that the law on libel in Northern Ireland is outdated register of interests. That centre’s work has been in and poses a threat to a number of areas of activity. I progress for 50 years; originally, it dealt principally firmly believe that it has to be addressed. with young people at risk of taking their own lives. Turning to Amendment 7, Northern Ireland has the The clinicians there tell me that they have never had a highest suicide rate in the United Kingdom. A strategy, young person take their life while under treatment in Protect Life 2, has been prepared and is sitting on a that centre. They have described to me how when a shelf, unable to be implemented because of the present young person meets a clinician who immediately crisis. Many noble Lords here, from Northern Ireland understands where they are coming from and their and other places, know what I am referring to. Because concerns, it is immediately effective in assuaging the of our recent past, we have a higher level of mental fears of the young person. health issues plus a lower level of mental health provision. What I am trying to say is that where appropriate The combination of those things compounds the fact services are available, they can be very effective. It troubles that we have a strategy that is perfectly sound but me very much to hear that this strategy, developed in 265 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 266

Northern Ireland, has been on the shelf for two and a on Monday: if those reports are going to happen, can half years because of the vacuum of power. I warmly they be considered and produced with a view to being welcome my noble friend’s efforts to highlight these the basis of policy action, rather than just a statement points today.I hope that the Minister may have something of events? That at least will have made use of the time comforting to say on the matter of young men, in that has been lost, so that if, as I hope, we have an particular,taking their lives in Northern Ireland because Executive and Assembly in place, they will have some there has been insufficient action to address their needs. meat that they can start to action sooner rather than later. If the worst happened—even direct rule—there Lord Eames (CB): My Lords, not for the first time would not be a hiatus before we got to grips with the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has put his finger on things. The situation has gone on for so long that the urgent issues to do with Northern Ireland. I congratulate consequences are becoming more serious every day. him on his persistence in that approach. Today he has As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, says, we are talking once more alerted the Committee to an urgent need about lives being lost. The longer it goes on, the that can be traced back to the fact that we have no harder and more costly it will be and the longer it will local administration. The extra strain of business and take for Northern Ireland to catch up. of making decisions passed on to our Civil Service has My plea to the Minister, which I hope he will take been a consequence. positively, is that this not be just a gesture of good will I want to speak particularly about the amendment —that there is a real, practical determination to ensure to address the rising suicide rate in Northern Ireland. that, if reports are produced, they are valuable and help This is one more example of the legacy of our past, of to implement policy decisions sooner rather than later what we have been through; it has cast its shadow not in the event of the Assembly being established, or of on that generation but on the new generation. I have Parliament or the Government recognising that action had personal, recent experience of the rector of a needs to be taken even in the absence of an Assembly. parish coming to me, even in my retirement, to seek advice for the son of one of those involved in our Troubles. The son had only recently learned of some Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP): of the actions and involvement of his father, and this My Lords, in the debate on Monday evening I joined preyed on his mind so much, even in middle age, that many noble Lords in supporting the issues that the he saw no alternative but to end his life. That is an noble Lord, Lord Empey, has brought before the exceptional case, I accept, but it does something to House. These amendments certainly focus our minds illustrate that this issue is not just for now: it is a legacy on issues that in many ways cross every boundary in reaching back to us from the past. Northern Ireland and are not divisive. If your Lordships The report to which the noble Lord referred is were to speak to practically every party in Northern gathering dust. Lives are being threatened. Thank God Ireland, they would find that they came together on that in some cases prevention intervenes, but if this these issues. As we have suggested before, is it not Bill produces nothing other than a new recognition of possible that the Assembly could come together and human need—nothing to do with politics, nothing to an Executive could be formed, that they could function do with “us and them”and all the usual phrases we have and take forward these priorities which unite us, and in Northern Ireland—then the opportunity could be that in the talks process they could continue on the seized to put pressure on those avenues that can directly other contentious issues that divide us? Until now, relate to the human need, which is a legacy issue and that has gone unheeded. I believe that most parties an overlap. There is a crying need at the moment in agree with that manner of taking things forward, but Northern Ireland to address prevention of the taking unfortunately that has been hindered. of human life and I urge the Committee to remember The noble Lord, Lord Empey, rightly says that the that. Front Bench is not currently responsible for many of these issues. I could accept that, but it does not have Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD): My Lords, I support the responsibility for two major social issues on which these amendments, which I hope the Government will it is legislating in the Bill. It feels that it can take those be able to accept—I think they have indicated that issues forward, but it leaves this behind. What is more they will, as they are asking for reports. This is valuable important? People are left dying while waiting for work that the noble Lord, Lord Empey,is recommending, operations or cancer treatment—left lying on trolleys, covering what I regard as the people’s priorities in waiting for their operations or even appointments to Northern Ireland. The reality right now is that these take place. There is a long waiting list for appointments issues are adversely affecting people in a whole range to see a medical practitioner. The elderly are left of services across the Province, as he rightly says. I without community care. These are life and death respectfully and slightly diffidently suggest that these issues. are probably the issues that exercise people day to day, I agree with each and every one of the amendments. more than some of the issues that apparently divide In the previous debate, my noble friend Lord Morrow, the parties in the talks. Those who are in talks should and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, gave a look at these issues and the consequences of their not list of other things which are certainly sitting there. The being able to establish an Assembly to address them, noble Lord, Lord Empey, is right to give the example because I think that is what the majority of people in of suicide. The strategy is there, but it has not been Northern Ireland want their Assembly to do. operated. The Government feel that they can get involved As I said on Monday, in one sense it is easy to ask and have agreed to take forward in legislation the issues of for reports and easy, perhaps, for the Government same-sex marriage and abortion, but they will not get to agree to reports, but I underwrite what I said involved in something which is indeed life and death. 267 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 268

[LORD MCCREA OF MAGHERAFELT AND COOKSTOWN] serious action after the Summer Recess in respect of The House may not have realised that, before this either an election or some other way of returning debate, we debated the wild animals in circuses Bill. I government to Northern Ireland. know there are plenty of clowns in circuses, but nobody is laughing in Northern Ireland over the issues that the Lord Empey: To clarify, while I understand how the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has raised. They bring great noble Lord has interpreted what I am doing, does he concern to the people of Northern Ireland. We could accept that I believe in devolution and want to see debate each one, but I will not take the time of the those departments there? My purpose has nothing to House, because I have spoken on them before. It is right do with pushing us in the direction of direct rule; I that we should have a report on suicide. Amendment 7 want to push us in the direction of devolution. says that: “The Secretary of State must, on or before 21 October 2019, Lord Alderdice: I wholly accept what the noble publish a report on progress of the implementation of the Lord says: he does not intend to push things towards Protect Life 2—Strategy for Suicide Prevention in Northern Ireland”. direct rule. However, the implication of him having to It is sitting on a shelf. We certainly want to see progress. raise these matters through amendments here, rather I therefore believe that the debate has allowed us to than them being raised by colleagues back in Belfast— raise issues that are very relevant to life and death in despite what all of us wish, which is to move towards our Province at this time. devolution—is that we cannot continue with no Government in the medium term. That is what we 5.30 pm have. I entirely accept his bona fide commitment to Lord Alderdice (LD): My Lords, I want to make devolution but that is an inevitable consequence. two points in support of what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has done. He has been consistent over quite a Lord Cormack: My Lords, I do not think that the period of time, particularly in raising issues regarding noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, was here on Monday, for the health service. reasons that I am sure we all understand. The message For a long time, I worked as a doctor and psychiatrist then was exactly what he says: we are moving inexorably in Northern Ireland; I am familiar with the situation towards direct rule. there. I was asked to chair a Royal College of Psychiatrists I want to make one point to the people of Northern commission for the whole UK on suicide, on which we Ireland. They are being served incredibly well in your produced a report. The noble Lord is absolutely right Lordships’ House by the noble Lord, as well as by the to keep asking this question and pressing the Government noble Lord, Lord Empey, and my noble friend Lord on a range of issues, particularly those regarding health- Trimble, a winner of the Nobel Peace Prize. They are care. Wewant to see many other issues brought forward— active in your Lordships’House after all the distinguished the noble Lord mentioned RHI and libel law,for example service they have given, and continue to give, in Northern —but he is right to point out that suicide and healthcare Ireland. I hope that that will send a reassuring message. are matters of life and death and that the longer I hope, above all, that their unity on the subject of they are postponed, the more people’s lives will devolution will spur on our colleagues from the DUP come to an inappropriate end. I welcome what he has and others to redouble their efforts to get the Assembly done and support him in it. I ask the Government to meeting and an Executive formed. If we have to wait a support what he says. little time, as the noble Lord has said, and many of us There is another element that is very much the meat have said, time and again, can we please have the of the Bill. Effectively, the noble Lord points out that Assembly meeting, its committees meeting? That, at we are moving towards direct rule because, simply, least, is something. I very much hope that long before there is no other way of getting any business done in any of the dates in this Bill come, we will at least see Northern Ireland. There is no government there; that that happen. is an impossible position and it is simply not acceptable. I heard a lot of talk about what is democratic and Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con): My Lords, I what is not, but not having a Government is a very strongly support the view that what we need is a serious matter. There are a number of ways in which devolved Government in Northern Ireland. Paying the Government can address this. The noble Lord, attention to items that separate us is very detrimental Lord McCrea, mentioned one that has been floated to making progress. On the items that the noble Lord, several times by a number of us: getting the Assembly Lord Empey, has cited, perhaps reliable legislation is to meet and debate these kinds of issues. We could not quite so important as the others, but all the others have an election to an Assembly, although part of the are vital for day-to-day life in Northern Ireland. I point of this Bill is to postpone that; I accept that the sincerely hope that the Northern Irish parties, all summertime is not a good time to do that, but this elected to the Assembly with the responsibility that situation cannot continue. they have, can come together on such items to get We will either have an election or move into direct things done. Otherwise, if we have a progress report on rule. The Bill and the amendments to it take us in that implementation, what is it going to tell us? That nothing direction. It is regrettable but inevitable that we move has happened. That is absolutely useless. in that direction if there is no other option; we cannot What we really need is to do our level best to get the continue not having a Government. I commend the Executive into action. I understand that there are noble Lord, Lord Empey, and point out the import of some matters that divide the principal parties in Northern what he says about not just specific issues but the Ireland. In fact, there are things that divide people issues in this Bill. I plead with the Government to take continually, but having a Government who can carry 269 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 270 out the essential matters referred to in the amendment noble Lords, particularly the noble and learned Lord, of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, is an urgent matter, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, I would be much happier and the responsibility primarily lies with those who if we were not sitting here debating these matters. have been elected to the Assembly. I hope that the Clearly, we have a unique situation: yes, Stormont has Government will do the best they can on these items, been suspended before, but it was replaced by direct but surely the main message is that those responsible, rule. This is the first occasion when Stormont has been elected by the people to serve in the Assembly, should suspended and has not been replaced by direct rule. come together and form an Executive to carry these Therefore, we have a most unique situation—a Civil things out. Service that is working but which is not accountable to anybody. To use the vernacular, it is bonkers, and the Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, question is how long we can put up with it. However, Lord Empey, for bringing forward these amendments. let us focus on the issues, which are worth looking at There seems to be a consensus in the House on the on their own merits. Perhaps, as the noble Lord, importance of forming an Executive as soon as possible. Lord Bruce of Bennachie, said, they could provide at The noble Lord serves that cause by illustrating the least a basis upon which policies could be implemented serious issues that have not been processed. We are when a suitable Government are established. In that 100% behind the re-forming of the Executive, and we spirit, I commend the amendments on the Marshalled hope that the people and the politicians of Northern List to your Lordships. Ireland see the wisdom of that. The amendments are interesting and useful, and I hope that the Government Amendment 5 agreed. will be saying appropriate warm words. Viscount Younger of Leckie: My Lords, the noble Amendments 6 to 9 Lord, Lord Empey, has raised important issues and Moved by Lord Empey made some very valid points, and I add my name to 6: Clause 3, page 4, line 2, at end insert— those who have expressed their gratitude to him for doing “( ) The Secretary of State must, on or before 21 October 2019, so. My noble friend Lord Duncan has been keen to publish a report on progress on libel legislation in Northern update the House on progress in establishing the Ireland and any plans to align Northern Irish legislation RHI hardship unit, and I am very happy to accept the with libel legislation in the rest of the United Kingdom requirement to publish this report by 21 October or (unless an Executive has already been formed).” earlier. The reports that the noble Lord requests are 7: Clause 3, page 4, line 2, at end insert— on libel and suicide strategy. “( ) The Secretary of State must, on or before 21 October 2019, I note the points made by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, publish a report on progress of the implementation of and the noble and right Reverend Lord, Lord Eames, the Protect Life 2 – Strategy for Suicide Prevention in and I have taken note of the tragic anecdotes that have Northern Ireland (unless an Executive has already been been told. The issues of NHS waiting times and welfare formed).” mitigations were also raised. All are matters of great 8: Clause 3, page 4, line 2, at end insert— importance, as my noble friend Lord Duncan set out “( ) The Secretary of State must, on or before 21 October 2019, in Committee earlier this week, and we fully understand publish a report on an assessment of how much demand the reason for raising them in this place. We are there is for elective care services and how this is exceeding health service capacity for both new and existing patients without a sitting Assembly in Northern Ireland to across Northern Ireland, and detailing each of the current debate these matters and to consider ways forward measures being taken to reduce health and social care that serve all of the people of Northern Ireland. waiting times, as well as those that are planned, and the These are all devolved matters. It is this Government’s impact of NHS waiting times on children (unless an fervent hope that Northern Ireland’s political leaders Executive has already been formed).” can see their way to agreeing to restore the devolved 9: Clause 3, page 4, line 2, at end insert— institutions. We have had some passionate speeches to “( ) The Secretary of State must, on or before 1 December 2019, this effect during this short debate. As these are devolved publish a report on the future welfare mitigation support matters, I do not purport to be able to significantly measures that will be in place after March 2020 (unless enlighten the House on the substance of the important an Executive is formed on or before 1 December 2019).” issues the noble Lord has raised. But in light of the Amendments 6 to 9 agreed. great value of these amendments, I am happy to accept them today and to commit to one-off reports on the issues specified. Clause 5: Assistance and support for victims of human In conclusion, I will answer a question that was trafficking in Northern Ireland: debate raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, Amendment 10 not moved. on what might happen upon the production of the reports. I say on behalf of the Government that it is our sincere hope that the incoming Ministers in Northern Clause 8: Marriage of same-sex couples in Ireland will draw from these reports to make progress Northern Ireland on these important issues. They will be published and will therefore be public documents. Amendment 11 Lord Empey: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to Moved by Lord Hayward all noble Lords who have participated in this debate, 11: Clause 8, page 6, line 3, leave out subsections (1) to (4) and and for the consensus that has emerged. Like many insert— 271 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 272

“(1) The Secretary of State must, by regulations, make in Northern Ireland (in accordance with Part 1 or provision so that— Part 3 of Schedule 6 to the Marriage (Same Sex (a) two persons who are of the same sex are eligible to Couples) Act 2013); marry in Northern Ireland, and (b) references to forming a civil partnership in Northern (b) two persons who are not of the same sex are eligible Ireland include references to registering as civil partners to form a civil partnership in Northern Ireland, outside the United Kingdom by virtue of eligibility to do so in Northern Ireland (in accordance with provided that, apart from the question of sex, they would be section 210(2)(b) or 211(2)(b) of the Civil Partnership eligible to marry or form a civil partnership (as the case Act 2004).” may be). (2) Regulations under subsection (1) must be made so as to Lord Hayward (Con): My Lords, in moving come into force on or before 13 January 2020 (but this Amendment 11, I will speak also to Amendments 15 does not in any way limit the re-exercise of the power). and 22 in my name and, on a cross-party basis, the names (3) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make any of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, and the other provision that appears to the Secretary of State to noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen. I will not go be appropriate in view of— over a large amount of what we discussed both at (a) the extension of eligibility to marry in Northern Second Reading and in Committee, but will explain Ireland to persons of the same sex, and briefly my background and interest in this subject. (b) the extension of eligibility to form civil partnerships in Northern Ireland to persons who are not of the We have discussed on a number of occasions during same sex. the previous debates the history of the Northern Ireland (4) Regulations under subsection (3) may, in particular, Assembly and a number of votes on the question of make provision about— same-sex marriage. I came to this relatively recently. In (a) parenthood and parental responsibility of parties January last year, I hosted a party here at the House of to a marriage or civil partnership; Lords for members of the Kings Cross Steelers—whose (b) the application by a party to a marriage or civil tie I wear with pride this evening. It is the world’s first partnership for a gender recognition certificate under gay rugby club, based in London. When hosting this the Gender Recognition Act 2004, or the issuing of such event I discovered how many members of my club a certificate, and the consequences of that application were from Northern Ireland, and I realised that they or issuing for the marriage or civil partnership; did not have the same rights. One of those present was (c) the financial consequences of marriage or civil John Henry, a former head boy at Wallace, and his partnership (for example, in relation to pensions or brother, Chris Henry, an Irish rugby international, social security); who was showing support for his brother. The world (d) the treatment under the law of Northern Ireland of has changed, and that was the indication—that a marriages, civil partnerships or relationships similar rugby international was willing to stand alongside his to civil partnerships formed outside of Northern Ireland. gay brother and say, “The world has changed”. Arising out of that, I started working with Conor McGinn in (5) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make provision for and in connection with a right to— the other place to produce a Private Member’s Bill, which I submitted on 27 March last year and he (a) convert a marriage into a civil partnership; submitted in the Commons the next day. I think the (b) convert a civil partnership into a marriage. noble Baroness, Lady Smith, had a very enjoyable Such regulations may, in particular, make provision equivalent evening at that party alongside all the rugby players. or similar to that contained in or authorised by section 9 of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013. Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): I assure the (6) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make any noble Lord that I had a great time. I hope for an provision that the Secretary of State considers appropriate invitation to the next party. in order to protect the ability to act in accordance with religious or other belief or opinion in relation to marriage 5.45 pm or civil partnership (including the conversion of marriage into civil partnership and vice versa). Lord Hayward: I will look in my diary and make sure (7) Regulations under this section— that the noble Baroness has a free slot in her diary to come.Hopefully,it will be a celebration of the introduction (a) may make provision for fees to be payable; of same-sex marriage. I said I would wear this club tie (b) may make provision conferring a discretion on a each time I spoke until we had changed this law, and I person; intend to continue to do so—but I hope I will not be (c) may make provision enabling a person to make bound by that for too long. regulations (and such regulations may make provision for fees to be payable); The purpose of the amendments I have tabled, with other Members of this House, is to improve and extend (d) may include provision amending, repealing or revoking any provision made by an Act of Parliament or the drafting of Clause 8. This will enable the Secretary Northern Ireland legislation; of State to deliver a comprehensive and effective regime for same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland. The amendments (e) may, in so far as made in reliance on section (Regulations: procedure and supplementary 1)(4), would also allow the Secretary of State to introduce include provision amending or repealing provision opposite-sex civil partnerships in Northern Ireland. made by an Act or Measure of the National Assembly This will ensure that all couples in Northern Ireland, for Wales or an Act of the Scottish Parliament. irrespective of their sexual orientation, will have equal (8) In this section— rights to enter the form of relationship of their choice. (a) references to marriage in Northern Ireland (however At this stage I thank not only the Minister and expressed) include references to marriage outside of Conor McGinn but the officials, who have been so the United Kingdom by virtue of eligibility to marry helpful in drafting these amendments. 273 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 274

Amendment 11 would replace subsections (1) to (4) between marriage and civil partnership and vice versa. of Clause 8 with new subsections (1) to (8). New I am conscious that this is a particularly sensitive issue subsection(1)enablestheSecretaryof State,byregulations, in Northern Ireland. Noble Lords may be familiar to extend eligibility so that two people of the same sex with provisions of the 2013 Act, known as the quadruple may marry in Northern Ireland and two people not of lock, which we have debated in this House on many the same sex may form a civil partnership. Noble Lords occasions. Essentially, the quad lock ensures that no will recall that we debated extending civil partnerships religious organisation or individual minister can be to opposite-sex couples in England and Wales earlier compelled to marry same-sex couples or to permit this year; I contributed by tabling an amendment, that to happen on their premises. The 2013 Act also which I ultimately withdrew. This was part of the Civil provides an opt-in system for religious organisations Partnerships, Marriages and Deaths (Registration etc) that wish to conduct marriages of same-sex couples Act 2019. Last week the Government announced their and ensures that no discrimination claim can be brought plans to allow such couples to form civil partnerships, against religious groups or individual ministers who and last month the Scottish Government committed refuse to marry couples because they are of the same to introducing legislation enabling Scottish opposite-sex sex. The Government have noted that they intend to couples to form civil partnerships. It is only right that extend similar protections to civil partnerships on we now extend this entitlement to opposite-sex couples religious premises in England and Wales. in Northern Ireland so that we ensure full equality of The protections for Northern Ireland will need to access to relationships across the United Kingdom. be adapted to fit the specific circumstances there. That New subsection (2) requires that the first regulations is because the system for religious marriage is different under new subsection (1) come into force on or before in Northern Ireland as it operates through approved 13 January 2020. The combined effect of the amendments celebrants, rather than approved premises, and marriages is that Clause 8 itself would come into force on 22 October, can be conducted by belief organisations, such as the unless the Northern Ireland Executive is reformed on humanists, as well as religious organisations. or before 21 October, and the regulations on same-sex Northern Ireland also has constitutional protection marriage and civil partnerships would follow early next against discrimination on the grounds of political year. Pushing back the commencement date for these opinion. The power in subsection (6) is therefore drafted regulationswouldallowtheGovernmentandtheNorthern in a way that enables appropriate protections to be Ireland Civil Service more time to make the necessary crafted to fit the particular conditions in Northern changes to legislation, as well as the essential operational Ireland, although I understand that they are likely to changes. I understand that any less time than this be broadly the same as those applicable in England would jeopardise the Government’s ability to extend and Wales and in Scotland. 1 hope that that reassures the full set of rights and entitlements to both same-sex noble Lords that no religious organisations nor individual married couples and opposite-sex civil partners. ministers will be compelled to conduct same-sex marriages Our amendments would also allow for other or opposite-sex civil partnerships in Northern Ireland necessary amendments to be made by regulations. against their will. New subsection (4) outlines the areas about which the regulations may make particular provision. These include: Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown: I matters relating to parenthood and parental responsibility; notice that Amendment 11 often states that the Secretary the financial consequences of marriage and civil of State “must” do something, but new subsection (6) partnership, which may include pensions and survivor states: benefits; and the recognition of equivalent same-sex “The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make any provision marriages and opposite-sex civil partnerships entered that the Secretary of State considers appropriate in order to protect the ability to act in accordance with religious or other into in Great Britain and overseas as marriage and belief or opinion in relation to marriage or civil partnership”. civil partnerships in Northern Ireland. I stress that In the debate on Monday, I thought that the amendment this list is not exhaustive but is intended to give a clear of the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, was giving assent indication of how the powers in new subsection (3) are to or accepting something. This is certainly very far likely to be used and the numerous other changes that away from giving protection for those of religious will be needed as a consequence of the extension of belief. marriage and civil partnerships. New subsection (5) enables the Secretary of State to Lord Hayward: During the debate on Monday I make regulations governing conversion rights. The indicated my willingness and understanding and, I must Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 allows same-sex say, determination to ensure that the protection in civil partners in England and Wales to convert their Northern Ireland was as it was in England and Wales. civil partnerships into marriage, without first having In fact, I checked my comments in Hansard earlier to dissolve the partnership. The Government are now today; I could refer to the column but I will not do so. consulting on whether opposite-sex married couples I checked with the lawyers and pressed them very in England and Wales should similarly have the hard—they have been enormously helpful—because I opportunity to convert to a civil partnership. New gave that commitment to the noble Lord and his subsection (5) would allow for both eventualities in colleagues on Monday. I am clear in my own mind, Northern Ireland. following serious and quite lengthy discussions, that New subsection (6) enables the Secretary of State to the amendment as drafted will cover the protection to make regulations that protect the ability to act in which I referred on Monday and broadly achieves the accordance with religious belief in relation to same-sex protections. I say “broadly” because of the difference marriage, opposite-sex civil partnerships and conversion between Northern Ireland and England and Wales in 275 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 276

[LORD HAYWARD] 6 pm terms of certain practices. Because I gave that assurance The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) to the noble Lords, I have checked it out and I am told that (Lab): My Lords, I should tell the House that if the protections, which I know noble Lords were seeking, Amendment 11 is agreed, I cannot call Amendment 11B are there. That is why I do not think the manuscript by reason of pre-emption. amendments that they have tabled are necessary. I am sorry that this is a lengthy explanation, but this is quite complex and it is important that the Amendment 11A (to Amendment 11) House understands the objective of each of the individual Moved by Lord Morrow subsections on the Amendment Paper. 11A: Clause 8, leave out subsection (6) and insert— Subsection (7) enables the regulations to provide “(6) The Secretary of State must, by regulations, make any for fees to be payable; for example, for registering civil provision that the Secretary of State considers appropriate partnershipsandconvertingmarriagestocivilpartnerships. in order to protect the ability to act in accordance with It also enables the regulations to amend, repeal or religious or other belief or opinion in relation to marriage revoke primary legislation, including consequential or civil partnership (including the conversion of marriage amendments to legislation made by the Scottish into civil partnership and vice versa) and such regulations must, in particular, make provision equivalent or similar Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales. This to that contained in or authorised by the Marriage (Same is to allow the Secretary of State to make the necessary Sex Couples) Act 2013” consequential changes to all relevant legislation, some of which may be cross-jurisdictional. Lord Morrow: My Lords, I listened very carefully to Subsection (8) ensures that the regulations can also what the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, said. He said provide for those who are eligible to enter a same-sex that it was very clear in his mind, and I suspect that it marriage or opposite-sex civil partnership in Northern is. But neither the noble Lord nor I—nor indeed any Ireland to do so in a British consulate or on an other noble Lord in this House—will be here forever, overseas British Armed Forces base. and that is the reason for my amendment. Amendment 15 introduces a new clause after current I feel that the tweak to Amendment 11—because Clause 9. It provides that regulations made under that basically is what it is—ought to be entirely acceptable Clause 8 are to be made by statutory instrument and to the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, to the Government subject to the negative resolution procedure. I appreciate and to your Lordships’ House. First, it makes it that it is highly unusual for powers such as these to be mandatory,rather than discretionary,for the Government subject to anything less than the affirmative resolution to use their order-making power to protect religious procedure and I note the concerns of the Delegated liberty. I emphasise that the protection of religious Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, expressed liberty is what this is about. Secondly, it pegs those in its 59th report of the Session. The other place, in religious liberty protections to the Marriage (Same accepting Conor McGinn’s amendments, strongly Sex Couples) Act 2013. That Act contains a series of endorsed his approach to extending same-sex marriage strong protections, including the famous quad lock, to Northern Ireland, including use of the negative which the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, referred to. I resolution procedure. I hope that our amendments call it the gold standard. We must make sure that the have given noble Lords a clearer indication of how the religious liberties of the people of Northern Ireland regulation-making power will be used. are definitely protected, that there is no room for Finally,Amendment 22 makes consequential changes ambiguity and that it is not merely discretionary for to the commencement provision in Clause 10. It replaces the Government to act. We must make sure that those current subsection (2) and clarifies that Clause 8 will protections are not less than those enjoyed by the come into force on 22 October unless the Northern citizens of other regions of the United Kingdom. Ireland Executive are formed on or before 21 October, Amendment 11 states: in which case Clause 8 will not come into force and it will be for the Executive to take forward these measures. “The Secretary of State must, by regulations, make provision”, That is to prevent the Secretary of State and a reformed for same-sex marriage. However, subsection (6) begins: Executive both having a power to introduce same-sex “The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make … provision”, marriage and opposite-sex civil partnerships in Northern to protect belief. There is no “shall” or “must” there; it Ireland. is optional. Protection of religion or belief should not I started by saying that the world is changing. The be left as a “maybe”, and nor should it be possible for Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act in this country some future Government, when none of us is around, faced substantial opposition. A few years on, it is now to use the same order-making power to simply abolish accepted as a part of life: there is no question about such protections by saying that they no longer consider that. I then referred to how society was changing in them necessary. Northern Ireland and I referred to my club tie. We are So my first tweak in Amendment 11A simply replaces not allowed to refer to what is seen or heard outside “may” with “must”. In my book that seems rational the Chamber,but some Members of the House may notice and reasonable. I know that there are other “mays” in that there is a similar tie within vision. It is worn by a Amendment 11—I accept that—but it is for others to product of Rainey Endowed School, a school that both argue whether those, too, should become “must”. I am noble Lords, Lord Browne and Lord McCrea, will arguing that the word is essential in subsection (6) because recognise. It identifies someone who is another member we are talking about the protection of fundamental of my club, who in their community would benefit from rights and freedoms. I ask your Lordships’ House to the changes that I propose this evening. I beg to move. think on that for a moment. 277 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 278

When the 2013 same-sex marriage legislation was for you”. The only honest way to go about that is to being debated, many people said that their support repeal the Act that gave devolved government and for it was conditional—this is on the record—on the take over in an honest manner. To do it like this is a comprehensive set of protections that guarantee religious mess—and I will oppose this mess because, in all my freedom, including, crucially, that no place of worship experience, when legislation is as complex and muddled would ever be forced to take part in a same-sex wedding. as this, it is fatally flawed. I hope that the same people who said that in 2013 will reaffirm today that their support for same-sex marriage LordLexden(Con):MyLords,IsupportAmendment11 in Northern Ireland is conditional on the same level of in the name of my noble friend Lord Hayward and protection being put in place. other noble Lords, and the other amendments associated The 2013 Act gold standard brings me to my second with it. The House will recall the skill with which my tweak. I have borrowed phrasing from subsection (5), noble friend Lady Stowell of Beeston took through the which requires that regulations made under that power equal marriage legislation in this House, and it is good may, to see her in her place as we debate this amendment. “make provision equivalent or similar to that contained in or Since 2013, I have, on several occasions, called for authorised by”, the extension of same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland, the relevant part, and I am delighted that my noble friend Lord Hayward “of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act”. has taken up the issue with such skill and determination, Again, I made it a “must” rather than a “may” because strongly supported by others across the House who it seems very obvious to me that whatever protections share our particular interest in gay rights, including are introduced ought not to be less than those enjoyed the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who is in her place by citizens on the mainland. today. I could also have invoked the Scottish same-sex I take a simple, unionist view. People in Northern marriage legislation, since Scotland, like Northern Ireland ought not to be deprived of this human right, Ireland, has a system where the emphasis is on the which is now firmly established in Great Britain. I do celebrants or officials being registered to conduct not think that the unfortunately named Sewel convention marriages, not on the premises. However, I wanted to should, on this matter, deter this Parliament from keep it simple and to trust the good sense of the exercising the right, which it undoubtedly possesses, to Government to uphold the same standard of protection legislate in a devolved area. Before its collapse, the while accounting for differences in the way that our Northern Ireland Assembly had reached a majority marriage legislation is framed. view in favour of reform, and opinion polls in Northern Ireland show that public support for same-sex marriage In conclusion, we are doing all this in an awful is running at much the same level as in the rest of our hurry. We have not had time to debate the details country. properly, but by tying the regulation-making power to the 2013 Act, so that the provisions must be equivalent It should be remembered that it was this Parliament or similar, we are simply being consistent. In all the that decriminalised homosexuality in Northern Ireland, debates that took place in 2013, we at least had the after a courageous Ulster Unionist, Jeffrey Dudgeon time to consider these matters. We must trust that we MBE, had brought a case at the European Court of got the balance of rights more or less right. The same Human Rights. That legislation in this Parliament balance should be afforded to and apply in Northern came 15 years after gay consenting adults elsewhere in Ireland. our country had ceased to be treated as criminals. Let not gay people in Northern Ireland have to wait so Lord Hayward: I was to trying to comment on the long for the right to marry if that is their wish. speech of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, and I thought Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab): My Lords, I I would be polite and wait for him to conclude. Just to support these amendments, to which I have added my clarify,in my earlier response I did not make it absolutely name. I commend the eloquence of the noble Lord, clear that the reason for the difference between “must” Lord Hayward, who spoke about the issues clearly and “may”—although I am sure it will not affect his and in detail. intention to pursue the debate—is that one is an enabling power and therefore “may” is standardly used in those I have followed these debates for a number of years circumstances. and, for me, this is a matter of human rights, on which we have clear laws. It is also a matter of respecting Lord Morrow: That does not diminish my real concern diversity. I have known several same-sex couples who here. I have to be frank and open with the House—and have suffered from not being able to make a deeply felt that is why I am saying that “must” rather than “may” commitment to each other through marriage. Many of should apply. these couples have deeply felt religious faiths. As I recall, at the most recent Assembly elections in Northern Lord Tebbit (Con): My Lords, it is a fairly good general Ireland, a number of Members who support equal rule that, when we are faced with legislation that is the marriage were elected. I think that 55 out of 90 Assembly sort of dog’s dinner that no reasonable dog would Members have declared that they would vote to introduce look at—complex and everybody has misunderstandings, marriage equality. with comments that they cannot accept this bit or that Marriage equality has enjoyed clear and growing bit—the legislation is fatally wrong. When Parliament majority support among the Northern Ireland public gave devolved rule to the people of Northern Ireland, over many years, as various surveys have shown. The it was a clear act. Now we are saying, “If you are recently published Northern Ireland Life and Times not using it, we are going to take it back and use it Survey shows that 68% of people—70% including 279 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 280

[BARONESS MASSEY OF DARWEN] At this stage, it borders on the difficult to believe don’t-knows—support legislation for same-sex marriage. for the nation to be told that what was good six years Amnesty International has produced a well-thought- ago should now be discretionary, without any evidential through document on this, saying that the UK foundation, when it appears to have worked. I strongly Government and Parliament are in a weak position as urge the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, from a sense of long as the ban on same-sex marriage continues in balance to accept the amendments of the noble Lord, part of the UK. Lord Morrow,and to delete proposed new subsection (6) The timetable proposed will allow for a statutory in Amendment 11. public consultation in Northern Ireland and provide The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, referred to the sufficient time for the Government to make the necessary involvement of the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, in changes to regulations. I do not accept that this is being this legislation. I well remember—she might too—that done in a hurry. The amendment will allow for the law after Third Reading, in the words of gratitude about on civil partnerships for opposite-sex couples in Northern the passage of the Bill, she emphasised that this very Ireland to be brought into line with other parts of the sensitive part of the new procedures had generally UK, thus addressing the Human Rights Act compliance been accepted. Let it continue. concern raised by the noble Lord, Lord Duncan of Springbank. This is an issue that we should grasp Lord Kilclooney (CB): My Lords, concern has been firmly now and I firmly support these amendments. expressed about the future of Northern Ireland. I have been very impressed by noble Lords’ concern about Lord Brennan (Lab): My Lords, I had occasion to affairs there—it compares very favourably with the take part in the same-sex marriage legislation in this lack of interest shown by Members in another place. House with one objective at the time, which was to When these subjects were debated, there was only balance the opportunity for people of the same sex to sparse attendance there, yet hundreds took part in the marry with the liberty of those of religious belief who Divisions. It was quite to the contrary here in the disagreed that their Church or belief should be compelled House of Lords, which is a tribute to this upper House to perform a same-sex marriage within their religious of our national Parliament. There has been interest on context. This was an extremely important element of all sides. that legislation. I speak as a strong devolutionist, who feels that it is The religious liberty exception, which the amendments the only way forward for Northern Ireland. I live of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, seek to introduce among a mixed community of nationalists and unionists, into this Bill, was embodied in the original legislation, and I know exactly how they feel. I must warn that I which this House passed through a Conservative am concerned about the deterioration of the situation Government. It has worked in the sense that I know of on the ground in Northern Ireland at this moment. It only one case where somebody has alleged discrimination is not getting much publicity, but I certainly sense it against a religious practitioner in relation to same-sex around the Province. Therefore, I ask all Members to marriage, which did not succeed. Why has there been treat with great caution the idea of our national Parliament only one case in six years? It is because the Act, when imposing legislation on the people of Northern Ireland finally passed here, struck a reasonable balance between on a devolved issue that should be retained by the the two different interests. The amendments in the Assembly at Stormont. name of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, basically incorporate into this legislation and, by amendment, I recognise what my noble friend Lord Empey has into the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, stated: many issues in Northern Ireland have been the protective provisions of our existing statute. delayed for too long, in education, health and other areas. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, agreed with 6.15 pm him. He is himself a great devolutionist, but he made There are three protective provisions. First, there is the point, quite correctly, that we are drifting towards no compulsion for religious entities or religious servants direct rule, which is a problem. This is a very dangerous to perform such a marriage. Secondly, there is no political move for this Parliament to make, because I discrimination if people try to get such a marriage and know exactly how the nationalist people in Northern are refused—it cannot be the basis of any claim against Ireland will react. They will say, “This is the English the Church involved. Lastly, the religions involved politicians imposing English standards on the people should have the right to educate reasonably, with of Northern Ireland”. That will be the reaction, and it balance, their young believers in relation to this topic. is not a winning formula. The House passed that particular section and I want This form of à la carte direct rule is not the answer. to emphasise one point. The provision in the previous We must remember that under the Belfast agreement, legislation was mandatory, not discretionary. First, where an Executive and Assembly at Stormont fail, why should it be discretionary for one part of the there is not just one alternative—namely,direct rule—but United Kingdom and not another? Secondly, the text a second alternative of the Government calling for a concerning the protections in Amendment 11B includes new election to the Northern Ireland Assembly. That a stern phrase.It says that regulations on these protections, may be the way forward, and should that happen—should “must include provision … prohibiting any person or religious the Government make this decision—we should recognise body being compelled by any means”, that the amendments before this House have within to carry out things that they do not want to carry out. them a conditional timescale. I hope the Minister can The phrase “by any means” is not a term of art; it is answer this question: if these amendments are subject one of comprehensive definition and it was introduced to a timescale, and if—in consequence of the failure of by the Government. the political parties in Northern Ireland to create a 281 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 282 new Executive and Assembly—the Government call his and people from his rugby club—are trapped in a for new elections to the Stormont Assembly, how will situation where they can see that marriage is readily that affect the timescale in these amendments? available elsewhere in the United Kingdom, in the Republic of Ireland, across Europe, but not in Northern Lord Bruce of Bennachie: My Lords, I was pleased Ireland. to be a signatory to the amendment of the noble Lord, While Lord Sumption in his Reith lectures made Lord Hayward, and I am grateful to him for introducing some questionable challenges to the European Convention it in comprehensive detail. We have had to move at on Human Rights, it is arguable—and likely to be a some speed, but considerable work has gone into resolution of the Court, if it has not already done trying to ensure that we have an amendment that is fit so—that the right to a civil partnership and, indeed, a for purpose and delivers the intention: to bring Northern marriage for same-sex couples is a human right. If Ireland into line with the law passed for the rest of the that is the case, if such a ruling were to be made, the United Kingdom. United Kingdom Parliament would have the responsibility I take note of what the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, to ensure that the people of Northern Ireland have says. Elections may be one way of resolving this deadlock their human rights. It would be better to do it before and something we may have to resort to. I am not so we had such a ruling, and on the basis that there is a sure that, on this issue, parties in Northern Ireland clear will within Northern Ireland for this to happen; will necessarily regard this as something imposed on and many have said that they expect this Parliament to the people of Northern Ireland by English politicians deliver it. against their will. The evidence is that opinion in Northern Ireland has moved into line with that in the Lord Elton (Con): My Lords, I would draw to the rest of the United Kingdom. We are not just talking noble Lord’s attention the fact that assertions by English about opinion polls, but specific expression. politicians about the opinions of the Northern Irish are no substitute for actual knowledge asserted by Lord Kilclooney: On that point, the noble Lord vote. It is no good saying that the polls have changed must recognise the political feeling within Northern and showing how big they are, because polls—particularly Ireland. In one respect, he is right in his conclusion, in elective and political matters—are often proved but in another respect, he is totally wrong. Sinn Féin wrong. I hope he will not put more weight than he will certainly say that it is opposed to direct rule, and already has, and in fact, I hope he will put less, on that it is opposed to matters being imposed on Northern asserting—other noble Lords have done the same—that Ireland. we know what the Northern Irish think and we know what is good for them, so we will do it. I am very Lord Bruce of Bennachie: I do not dispute that unhappy about all of this, and I shall shut up now, whatsoever. I am taking the specific issue of same-sex because I was not able to come in for the beginning of marriage, and on that, Sinn Féin politicians have said the debate, but I am deeply unhappy about what is that they would welcome this Parliament passing a law going on. to introduce same-sex marriage. Indeed, politicians, leaders and leading politicians of every party bar one Lord Bruce of Bennachie: I think the noble Lord is have done so. Had the Assembly been sitting, possibly misinterpreting what I said. I was quoting what had without the use of a petition of concern, it is clear that been said by Northern Ireland politicians and talking the law would have been changed. That is also a reason about how the Northern Ireland Assembly had voted. why in the talks, one hopes that the future of the petition I am not talking about opinion polls, but about votes of concern will be addressed so as not to block the will and the expressed views of political leaders in Northern of the majority even within Northern Ireland, never Ireland—not my opinions but their opinions. I am mind externally. On this issue, parliamentarians in this simply reporting them to the House, and I suggest, on House and the other place are perhaps on somewhat that basis, that it is not about opinion polls; it is about stronger ground than they are on the other issue—which the clearly expressed views of political leaders in Northern we will come to later—in terms of the opinions within Ireland and votes in the Northern Ireland Assembly Northern Ireland. when it was sitting. In that context, in a sense, the As the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, says, the world people of Northern Ireland and their representatives is changing, and it is changing rapidly. We have not are asking us to pass this law. even begun to discuss the issues of gender and gender definition, which are causing considerable controversy 6.30 pm right now. However, this issue has in many parts of the Lord Alderdice: My Lords, given that the noble world almost become a settled, recognised fact. It is Lord, Lord Elton, has raised the question of whether not just about gay rights and the decriminalisation of people from this side of the water ought to be ruling homosexuality.Although there are far too many countries, on what happens in Northern Ireland, I will say something particularly developing countries, where the law is way as somebody whose accent betrays them as coming behind the reality, otherwise, the reality is that it from Northern Ireland. is now accepted; it is a custom. It has moved quickly, First, it is absolutely clear from the voting record of but acceptance is pretty widespread. It is a fact: people Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly that attitudes meet people who are married and who are gay. The on this question have changed definitively. When the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, said that it has happened in Northern Ireland Assembly was meeting, it passed, in his own family. We have to recognise that the gay 2015, by a majority, its wish for same-sex marriage. community in Northern Ireland—the noble Lord, But this was blocked by the procedural device of Lord Hayward, gave personal examples of friends of a petition of concern—a device not put in place for 283 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 284

[LORD ALDERDICE] aspect of how people feel about the legislation. As the these kinds of issues, and which in fact has been so noble Lord, Lord Brennan, said, it has worked well overused that it is now being questioned altogether. here, and I hope the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, will We must understand that, had that device not been find it possible to overcome the difficulties of lawyers used, we would not be debating the issue now because and do what is necessary to secure this. it would already have been passed by the Northern I also believe it would be proper for this sort of Ireland Assembly. regulation-making power to be subject to consultation Secondly, as I listened to the debate in Committee, in Northern Ireland. If, as we have just heard, the a number of noble Lords said—it has been repeated position is that people there wish for this, consultation again this evening—that we have to be terribly careful will show that. It is extremely important that what is that we are not seen as people from this side of the proposed has the merit of being supported by consultation water imposing a view on people in Northern Ireland, in Northern Ireland itself. particularly, the sentiment was, on nationalists and republicans; it is quite difficult for Unionists to complain Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown: My terribly about it. We need to understand how much the Lords, I have no doubt whatever of the sincerity of the situation in Ireland has changed, not over the last five noble Lord, Lord Hayward, or of anyone else who has or 20 years, but over the last two, three or four years. spoken in support of his amendment. I trust he will There have now been referenda in the Republic of acknowledge that there is no lack of sincerity among Ireland on both the abortion and same-sex marriage those who speak on behalf of the amendment tabled questions. Both have been passed and the legislation by my noble friend Lord Morrow. He said that the has been changed. We now have a Taoiseach in the world is changing. A number of Members of your Republic of Ireland in a same-sex relationship. It is Lordships’ House have had a religious vocation in life. not an issue any more. When it comes to my religious belief, while we say that Sinn Féin’sresponse, after the referendum was passed, the world is changing, the word of God on which I was to say that this should now happen in the north. base my belief says that although, So, while folk here might say, “We are talking about “Heaven and earth will pass away … my words will never pass harmonisation with the rest of the United Kingdom”, away”. Sinn Féin will say, “We are looking at harmonisation It does not change with the passing of time. with the rest of the island”. It has been clear that that The point that my noble friend Lord Morrow has is what it wants to see. On lots of issues that the party brought before the House is very serious. I see the does not agree with it will use a different analogy, but clear wording in the amendment of the noble Lord, this is clearly party policy and something Sinn Féin Lord Hayward, and I come back again to the word wants to deliver. So, I think it highly unlikely that “may”. When I was in public life, as a councillor for there will be the difficulty that Members suggest— 37 and a half years, and as an elected representative in particularly that it might in some way create a degree the other House for 25 years, a lot of emphasis was of instability for the peace process or attitudes to the placed on putting “shall” and “must” into legislation. Good Friday agreement. That might have been the When “may” was put in, it was drawn to the attention case five, 10 or 20 years ago; I do not believe it is now, of the governing party in those years that this did not at all, because the situation in Ireland as a whole has create certainty.The amendment says that the Secretary changed dramatically. We could go into why it has of State “may” make a provision that the Secretary of changed. It has changed because the position of the State considers “appropriate”; in other words, “may” Churches and religious establishments has dramatically at the whim of the Secretary of State. If the Secretary collapsed, north and south of the border, for reasons of State, irrespective of who it is, decides not to give not totally dissociated from this element of human that protection, there is no protection, according to behaviour. this legislation, should it be passed by your Lordships’ Having said that, an important case has been put by House this evening. the noble Lord, Lord Morrow: that, because there are That is a very serious matter with serious implications anxieties, there has to be a degree of confidence that because it gives the idea that this is discretionary, not the position of those in religious organisations, whether mandatory. I therefore honestly have to say that many celebrants or members, will be protected. Whatever the of my colleagues would have no confidence in the legalities of the permissive use of the word “may”, there manner in which this has been presented at this time. I is a case for ensuring that the word “must” is used to have listened carefully to what other Members of this give a degree of confidence to those who are anxious House have said and I believe they acknowledge that about the changes that have taken place. So, I do not there is a problem here. Acknowledging the problem is have any anxiety that passing this in this Parliament one thing, but if it goes into legislation and the wording will somehow create a great problem in the relationship is not changed, that is what we are left with. Then, of with nationalists and republicans; they were keen to course, it goes to a court. What did Members of the other vote for it in 2015 and even more so now, post-2018. House really mean when they put down the word “may”? But there is a case for addressing the anxieties of those Did they simply leave it to the discretion of the Secretary who feel that a mere “may”is not a sufficient protection of State or did they say that it went deeper than that? for their concerns; I acknowledge and support that. Protecting religious freedom and religious belief in Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords,I also very much the United Kingdom is vital. We cannot lose our supportthat,aswellaswhatthenobleLord,LordBrennan, religious freedom, our civil and religious liberty, which said. It is not so much a matter of particular legal was fought for and which people died for. I do not qualification, but it is a fact that this is a very important believe we should hand it away. Therefore, I make a 285 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 286 solemn appeal to Members of your Lordships’ House. not address issues related to freedom of religion and Forget about who tabled the amendment; forget that it religious expression, allowing religious institutions to is my noble friend Lord Morrow. Think carefully opt in, rather than being compelled to perform same-sex about what it means. I appeal to the House to accept marriage ceremonies. that what he says is a protection that must be given to The Government—I hope the Minister will confirm people of religious belief in Northern Ireland. this; I expect him to—and the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, have been very clear that any legislation relating to Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, I thank the Northern Ireland will mirror the legislation already in noble Lord, Lord Hayward, for the way he introduced place in England and Wales and will address the very this amendment and for addressing the comments concerns raised by the noble Lords, Lord McCrea and made by the noble Lords from the DUP. I am sure the Lord Morrow. Extending the period in the legislation Minister will repeat the assurances he gave. All noble will give Ministers and their officials time for a little Lords are right; there has been a considerable shift breathing space to engage with relevant stakeholders over time in what society thinks about these issues. I and get to grips with those issues. That is the right way do not think Northern Ireland is any different from forward. any other part of the UK in that regard. We often refer to amendments passed in this House As a general point, in Monday’s debate, the noble as a victory for common sense. With the majority of Baroness, Lady Barker, spoke of her recent marriage. MLAs and Members of Parliament having backed the As Members of this House from all three political extension of same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland, parties, and quite possibly the Cross Benches, have tidying up this amendment to address the points and done, she took advantage of the same-sex marriages concerns raised is not just a victory for common sense Act that this House passed under the superb guidance but a victory for love. of the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell—who could forget her descriptions of her relationship with George Clooney? 6.45 pm Members of this House have taken advantage of that Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, this is legislation and we congratulate them on their marriages. a historic moment. I am struck. Let me begin in an I struggle with the idea that something that has unusual way,with a quote from Sara Canning, the partner been fundamental to my life—a marriage of 40 years— of Lyra McKee. She made a statement to Theresa May, should not be available to colleagues who choose to love saying that: somebody of the same gender as them. I also struggle “I wanted her to know that Lyra and I had a right to be to understand why somebody who lives in Northern treated as equal citizens in our own country. Surely that’s not too Ireland should be treated any differently from somebody much to ask?” who lives in any other part of the UK on their ability I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hayward for to marry and share their life with the person they love. tabling Amendment 11, and doing so in a manner The amendment from the House of Commons was which addresses the technical deficiencies in the initial deficient in some ways, but the fundamental principle amendment from the other place. was that there should be equality in the law across the I have heard comments on a number of issues UK on or before 21 October 2019. What we have before tonight. I do not make a habit of quoting scripture, us today gives effect to that. It was taken on a free vote but I will tonight; I think it is important to do so. I in the House of Commons and it is a free vote, a quote 1 Corinthians, chapter 13, verse 7: conscience issue, in this House as well. It passed in the “Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and other place by a majority of 310. That is bigger than endures through every circumstance”. most majorities we get even in this House. In time- The majority by which the other place made its decision honoured way, what has fallen to your Lordships’ was quite significant—a majority that my party can now House is to tidy up the amendment that came to us, only dream of. It is a reminder that, had the Executive dealing with any technical deficiencies and the details re-formed in the past, this matter would have been taken and definitions. I am grateful to the noble Lord, forward in Northern Ireland. That is the important Lord Hayward, Conor McGinn in the other place, part to stress, but we cannot overlook what has arrived and others who have worked on this. from the other place. In the other place, the Minister’s colleague the I will touch on a number of the issues raised, Minister of State for Northern Ireland, John Penrose, because it is important to do them justice, but I will do confirmed that he sympathised with the amendment, this slightly the wrong way around. The noble Lord, but said it had deficiencies. I will come on to those. He Lord Morrow, raised the issue of religious protection voted in favour of it, with that statement that it was and religious freedom. He is right to do so, because both politically and legally impractical. The changes there needs to be an understanding among all faith-based required are those that bring it in line with current groups in Northern Ireland that they will not be England and Wales legislation and deal with the compelled to act against their faith, their religion or practicalities of when it can be delivered. even their opinion. Consequential policy issues arose. For example, the However, I come back to how we seek to move this original amendment did not address issues such as forward. The question centred around the words “may” pensions, the conversion of civil partnerships and and “must”. I need to drill down into that to make gender recognition. The replacement clause picks up sure this is fully understood. The words “may” and on those and prompts the Secretary of State to consider “must”are not about the protections or the fundamental them when making regulations. As has been heard in realisation of them. Article 9 of the European Convention your Lordships’ House tonight, the original clause did on Human Rights guarantees the right to freedom of 287 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 288

[LORD DUNCAN OF SPRINGBANK] I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, will religion and freedom of conscience. That is not in not press his amendments, and that we can move doubt, not debated and not disputed, and will not be forward with Amendment 11 tabled by the noble in any way eroded by anything we do here today—full Lord, Lord Hayward. stop. It is important to remember that all the legislation will comply with that and ensure we move that forward. Lord Morrow: My Lords, I have listened very carefully Absolutely at the heart of this must be a belief in to what has been said around the House this evening. I Northern Ireland that faith-based groups will not thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this experience some sort of prejudice because they express debate. It was remiss of me at the beginning not to their faith in fashions which do not recognise the thank the staff of the Bill office for their assistance. situation today. They have been very busy of late—I suspect they are As the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said only the busy all the time, and this is just a normal day for other day, she would not wish to get married somewhere them—but they were very gracious and helpful. where she did not experience that love. Marriage is not Some noble Lords, including the Minister, have a confrontation with other religions or an attempt to quoted other people. I had intended to say more, but I undermine them. Marriage is not an attempt to do any am not going to. I am not going to say his name, of those things at heart. It is, at heart, about love; that because he does not come from the same side of the is the important thing we need to stress. political spectrum as me, but I want to quote one of I thank my noble friend Lord Hayward for moving our well-known politicians, known to everybody in forward in this fashion. I commend his speech to the this House: House; he has done most of the heavy lifting that I “In Northern Ireland, we have a tendency to look at who is would have had to do. He has done justice to the task saying something rather than what is being said”. of addressing a number of technical deficiencies. It I trust and pray that, tonight, your Lordships’ House will be important to recognise how these will play out will not be guilty of the same. It is my intention to test in Northern Ireland. This is an issue where we need to the opinion of the House on this matter. be as careful as we can be. I need to stress that I do not have any concerns with The Deputy Speaker decided on a show of voices that Amendment 11 as now drafted. The dates in there will Amendment 11A (to Amendment 11) was disagreed. be a challenge—I put that front and centre—but we will meet those deadlines, by hook or by crook. I Amendment 11 agreed. apologise to the officials who we will look to for this, but I am making that commitment. The reason the Amendment 11B not moved. timelines are as they are is to recognise that this is not straightforward. When we looked at some of the aspects The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab): of same-sex marriage and civil partnership elsewhere If Amendment 12 is agreed to, my successor will not in these islands, we recognised that they carried challenges be able to call Amendments 13 and 14. to other pieces of legislation, which needed to be addressed. That is why we need a timeframe of nine Clause 9: International obligations in months post Royal Assent. The amendment necessitates respect of CEDAW that we move faster than that. However, this is the truth of it, as we recognise some of the stumbles and challenges which have been experienced elsewhere in Amendment 12 this kingdom and learn from them. It is important to Moved by Baroness Barker draw on the experiences in Scotland, England and Wales, which should help us. Addressing the point 12: Clause 9, page 6, line 16, leave out subsections (1) to (4) and insert— made by the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, I say that it is important to stress that we are looking at an opt-in “(1) The Secretary of State must ensure that the recommendations in paragraphs 85 and 86 of the CEDAW process. One would not be compelled to act against report are implemented in respect of Northern Ireland. one’s faith or strongly held beliefs. (2) Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person I am aware that this provision will not be welcomed Act 1861 (attempts to procure abortion) are repealed in every quarter of Northern Ireland, just as it was not under the law of Northern Ireland. welcomed in every quarter of Scotland, England or (3) No investigation may be carried out, and no criminal Wales,but, as other noble Lords have said, time has moved proceedings may be brought or continued, in respect of on. It is time to move this one on. A message is being an offence under those sections under the law of Northern sent to Northern Ireland. I wish this had been done in Ireland (whenever committed). Stormont; it would have been stronger had it been done (4) The Secretary of State must by regulations make whatever there. I would much rather not be standing here doing it, other changes to the law of Northern Ireland appear to the Secretary of State to be necessary or appropriate for but it needs to be done. We are acting on a very clear the purpose of complying with subsection (1). instruction from the other place, having recognised (5) Regulations under subsection (4) must, in particular, that the instruction required certain adjustments,for which make provision for the purposes of regulating abortions we are very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hayward. in Northern Ireland, including provision as to the On this basis, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, circumstances in which an abortion may take place. will recognise that we are not seeking to undermine (6) Regulations under subsection (4) must be made so as to in any way the religious freedom or the conscience come into force by 13 January 2020 (but this does not in of anyone in Northern Ireland who holds a faith dear. any way limit the re-exercise of the power). 289 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 290

(7) The Secretary of State must carry out the duties imposed Ireland be to implement that Bill. That has resulted in by this section expeditiously, recognising the importance the amendments before your Lordships this evening: of doing so for protecting the human rights of women in Amendment 12 and the consequential amendment. Northern Ireland. (8) The Secretary of State may by regulations make any 7 pm provision that appears to the Secretary of State to be appropriate in view of subsection (2) or (3). Amendment 12 requires the Secretary of State to, “ensure that the recommendations in paragraphs 85 and 86 of the (9) Regulations under this section may make any provision CEDAW report are implemented in respect of Northern Ireland”. that could be made by an Act of the Northern Ireland Assembly. and that, crucially: (10) In this section “the CEDAW report” means the Report “Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act of the Inquiry concerning the United Kingdom of Great 1861 … are repealed”, Britain and Northern Ireland under article 8 of the so that women are no longer criminalised in Northern Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Elimination Ireland for seeking to secure an abortion. The amendment of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW/ also says: C/OP.8/GBR/1) published on 6 March 2018.” “No investigation may be carried out, and no criminal proceedings may be brought or continued, in respect of an offence under those Baroness Barker (LD): My Lords, I hope we can sections under the law of Northern Ireland”— continue in a similar vein on this next set of amendments. because it is still the case today that women are being I rise to move Amendment 12, and to speak to taken to court under these ancient laws, which have Amendments 19, 21 and 24, which are in the same existed since before women had the right to vote, for group. Noble Lords who have followed this Bill closely seeking to secure access to healthcare, which they will know that in the House of Commons, Clause 9 would be entitled to were they to live in the other was carried by a majority of 332 to 99. Its purpose is countries of the United Kingdom. to ensure that the human rights of women in Northern The amendment also states: Ireland are similar to those in the rest of the United “The Secretary of State must by regulations make changes”, Kingdom on the matter of abortion. There was an to the law that are necessary for all of those purposes. overwhelming majority in another place for the rights This process of making regulations has been the subject of those women to be respected. of considerable discussion, because the Minister, in The reason was quite clear. As the noble Lord, his discussions and in his speeches to the House, has Lord Trimble, has often reminded us, abortion is legal made clear that the Government feel themselves to be in Northern Ireland—but it is legal in some of the under an obligation to undertake extensive consultation most restrictive terms in the world. Consequently, the on these matters. The people who have fought so long ways in which some of the laws have been interpreted and so hard for women to have these rights are fearful have meant that, for example, in the last year only that that might be taken as an excuse to frustrate the 12 women have been able to have an abortion in will of another place. Northern Ireland, and, as noble Lords will know, up Let us be fair. To date, the track record of enabling to 1,000 women a year have to resort to coming to women to access their rights has been far from good. other parts of the United Kingdom—if they can So the discussions which lie behind this set of amendments afford to—in order to receive the healthcare to which are an attempt to find a way in which the Government they are entitled. can take forward the expressed will of the House of Last year, the Supreme Court ruled on abortion Commons and do so in a way which is timely and law in Northern Ireland, stating that the present-day which allows necessary consultation—for example, with legislative position in Northern Ireland was untenable, people in the medical profession, because it is recognised intrinsically disproportionate and clearly in need of that this will bring about considerable change from radical reconsideration. The court also stated that the what exists now—but does not allow the proposals to existing law was incompatible with Article 8 of the be dragged out to the point at which the will of the European Convention on Human Rights: the right to House of the Commons is effectively denied. private family life. It was against that background I have had many conversations with the Minister. that, in another place, the Member for Walthamstow, He understands, I think, what this amendment is Stella Creasy, sought to insert into this Bill an obligation trying to do. He does, I believe, have a problem with on this Parliament to ensure that all parts of the the issue of the timetable; we may return to that. In United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, are moving the amendment, perhaps I may ask the Minister compliant with the UN Committee on the Elimination whether he might address some of the fears expressed of Discrimination against Women, which told the by people who wish to see this measure come to pass Government in February 2018 that abortion law in in a timely manner. Could he assure the House that, if Northern Ireland breached human rights. there is consultation on these matters, the substance of An amendment was put forward, the substance of the consultation will not be whether women in Northern which was accepted by the Government—but it was Ireland should have access to abortion services, but said that the amendment was deficient. Since the how and when they will have access to them? Can he addition to the Bill was made in the Commons, there confirm that, explicit within any consultation, from has been a process of discussion between the Government the outset, there will be a commitment that the human and those who put forward that proposal about how rights of women will be respected? In particular, could the expressed will of the Commons should be carried he confirm that no woman will be forced to declare that forward—and, in particular, what regulation-making they have been raped at any stage in order to secure process should now being undertaken in Northern an abortion? That is a concern which has arisen from 291 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 292

[BARONESS BARKER] not be about restricting abortion. It will be about how, people in Northern Ireland who are trying to envisage in practical terms, to establish a new regulatory regime how this could be brought to pass very quickly, but that fully delivers on the CEDAW recommendations. I practically. confirm that the Northern Ireland Office is clear that I also draw to the attention of the House the human rights commitments mean that women will fact that the Criminal Law Act (Northern Ireland) never be forced to disclose rape and that a consultation 1967 requires medical professionals to disclose serious will not lead to this. That is a very important question. crimes.That has been used to require medical professionals The CEDAW recommendations set out that abortion to disclose that women are seeking to access abortion must be provided in cases of rape and incest, but not services. That compromises clinical judgment, so can how this should be done. This will need to be considered the Minister say in any process of consultation that carefully, given the sensitive and distressing nature of there will be a need to ensure that medical practitioners these circumstances.In doing so, the health and well-being are no longer subject to the criminal law in a way in of women will be first, foremost and paramount in which they would not be were they to be practising these considerations. their profession in any other of the countries of the Reference to the Criminal Law Act (Northern Ireland) United Kingdom. There are professional standards 1967 and the obligations on the medical professions is and regulations which govern the provision of services, an important consideration. That is why in developing to which they as professionals must adhere. It is not as proposals to meet the CEDAW recommendations, we though there were no criminal laws at all. will give the most careful consideration to issues such Finally, I ask the Minister: within the plans to as rape and sexual assault; and why it is important consult on regulations made under this Bill, is there that we make these proposals in discussion with medical any intent to publicly consult on measures that would and other organisations, which understand and support restrict the ability of women in Northern Ireland to women who have endured these horrors. gain access to abortion services? On the question of why consultation itself has to be I realise that this is a very contentious subject; carried out under Section 75, the equality duty under that anybody who has followed our debates so far will section requires designated public authorities in Northern know that. But it is reasonable for noble Lords to be Ireland, including the Northern Ireland Office, to, aware that those of us who have brought forward this “have due regard to the need to promote equality of opportunity”, amendment have done so following extensive consultation in relation to the nine equality categories, and to the with people in Northern Ireland who have, for many desirability of promoting good relations, years, tried to ensure that women there have access to services that mean that their human rights are no less “between persons of different religious beliefs, political opinion”, than those of women in other parts of the United and racial groups when carrying out their functions in Kingdom. I realise that this subject may be slightly Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland equality scheme more complicated than that which we have just left, notes that consultation is usually undertaken over a but I hope that the Minister and other noble Lords 12-week period but that in exceptional circumstances, will join with me in seeking to expedite this, because it can be reduced to a period of eight weeks or less. In women in Northern Ireland are in very grave need of any case, our equality scheme requires us to consult on change. the equality impact assessment at the appropriate stage, so consultation in one form or another will be required. Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, forgive me We also undertake to ensure that consultations will for rising at this particular juncture, which I would not seek the views of those directly affected by the policy normally do; I will return to the wider debate once it reform: the Equality Commission, representative groups has completed. I think it is important that I respond to of Section 75 categories,other public authorities,voluntary the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and her important and community groups and other groups with a legitimate questions and provide some information to the House interest in the matter. It is our strong preference that, that may inform the debate as we progress. given the significant reform Clause 9 seeks to achieve— The noble Baroness asked several questions that I creating a decriminalised and, instead, a medical-model wish to give some clear answers to. The first was on regime for the provision of abortion services in Northern the consultation—that it should focus on provision, Ireland—we undertake a consultation period of between not on law, enabling women to access rights, rather eight and 12 weeks. We appreciate that there is existing than restricting them. A period of consultation is the evidence supporting the type of case for reform; right thing to do and would ensure people in Northern that includes legal judgments, domestic inquiries and Ireland and all relevant organisations can provide international reports. But these do not set out a clear input and views. However,I want to be clear: consultation path forward that can be directly translated into regulatory would not be on the question of whether this should and other measures. That is why consultation is required. be done, but only on how CEDAW’s recommendations Generally, there is a strong argument for consultation can be implemented in Northern Ireland. As to the in terms of making good public law and a reduced risk question of human rights compliance in the regulations, of future legal challenge, which I cannot emphasise let me absolutely clear: in setting up the new regulatory enough. I am sure that my colleagues on all sides regime and relevant non-legislative matters, we will would agree that we must ensure that the reform is comply fully with our human rights obligations. correct, for the health, safety and well-being of the To answer the question of how we would meet our women affected, and that it is appropriate to provide requirements if we publicly consult on measures that clarity regarding the safeguards in place for the medical would restrict access to abortion, any consultation will profession. That brings up the conscience concept. 293 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 294

I can confirm that the Government will work I should say that I am an active member of the expeditiously between now and 21 October 2019 to British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly; indeed, I chair ensure that we take all possible steps to be ready to one of its committees. We have been looking at abortion implement changes if the Executive are not restored and I wish I could give the House the full details of thereafter—let me get that right: restored before. The our report. We produced our committee’s report some whole thing could hinge there, so let me reread that time ago. It would normally go to the plenary before sentence to avoid any dubiety. I can confirm that the being adopted and going into the public domain. Government will work expeditiously between now and However, one DUP member of the committee did not 21 October 2019 to ensure that we take all possible, like anything in the report, so we said to him, “Okay, necessary steps to be ready to implement changes if produce an alternative version and we’ll publish it”. the Executive have not been restored by that time. That took some time and the result is that although I If it is accepted that a consultation has to be carried have our report—in fact, I have his as well—I am not out under Section 75, can I confirm that the substantive really at liberty to go through it in detail because it is point will be how women will obtain access to abortion not yet public property. It still has to go before the and not whether they should be able to do so? I want to plenary of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. be absolutely clear: consultation would not be on the That is proper, otherwise we would have an interesting question of whether this should be done but only on how report. Of course, that report may well be redundant the recommendations of CEDAW can be implemented by the time it is approved if all these measures go in Northern Ireland. How will this be reflected in a through. drafting process and consultation? The consultation However, we still discovered some useful things in will make it explicit that we are consulting on how to producing the report. We talked about the human deliver CEDAWrecommendations most effectively, not rights of women and the rights of healthcare professionals. on whether we should be taking forward this reform. We also talked about whether it should be illegal for We will want to engage with the Equality Commission doctors to give the advice that they can anywhere else for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Human in this country, and so on. I am afraid I am not at Rights Commission to ensure that our consultation is liberty to say more, except that we took a lot of evidence. drafted in the most effective way, to ensure targeted We took evidence in Liverpool, London, Belfast and engagement on how we propose to proceed. I hope Dublin, so we got a broad range of opinions on both that this information is helpful to the House. sides of the argument. I am bound to say that the majority of the committee were persuaded by the strength of 7.15 pm the arguments, which are centred on this amendment. This is not something that has just come to me; it is Lord Dubs: My Lords, I speak in support of based on a lot of the work that we put into the report, Amendments 12, 19, 21 and 24 but if I may address which will see the light of day before too long. what the Minister has just said, it was helpful that he clarified the position. I suspect it may well have shortened I repeat that I am grateful to the Minister for the debate significantly as well. I draw much comfort clarifying the position. I have one point to put to him. from the way he said that the consultation will not be Ideally, I would like the timetable for this consultation about whether to do it but only how to do it. As I to be the same as it is for the same-sex marriage understand it, it will be about the details for giving consultation. If the Minister can clarify why one is longer effect to the wish expressed in the amendment, not about than the other, I would be grateful. We look forward going back to first principles on whether one should to a quick resolution of this terrible dilemma, which move ahead. That is very important and I welcome it. faces so many women in Northern Ireland. I am slightly puzzled by one point. The Minister explained why he wants a longer period for the Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD): My Lords, I think the consultation process on this amendment than he urged House knows that I was the person who piloted the on the same-sex amendment. It seems to me that if Abortion Act 1967 through the other place. I begin by one can do it on the same-sex amendment in a certain thanking the Government, and this Minister in particular, timeframe, one could also do it on this amendment. I for their readiness to respect the overwhelming vote in wonder whether the Minister might clarify that. Having the House of Commons recently to bring the law in said that, I welcome the assurances he gave us and Northern Ireland into line. I was slightly puzzled by repeat: we are not looking at whether but how to the fact that although the Government made the implement. That is crucial. commitment to put right what they saw as deficiencies I want to say one or two things briefly because the in the drafting in the Commons, that has not happened, noble Baroness, Lady Barker,covered a lot of the points. and we have no government amendments before us Over the years, many of us have been lobbied and today. Perhaps the Minister will explain why that is so. approached by women from Northern Ireland and, I am assuming that we will now go forward and that before its referendum, from the Republic who were after the consultation there will be effective introduction desperate about the situation in which they found of a statutory instrument. Presumably that is what the themselves. We heard the most painful stories of women Government have in mind to change the law in Northern who had to travel alone to Liverpool for an abortion, Ireland. as they could not do it in the comfort of their own homes. It is worth reminding the House that the 1967 We heard stories of doctors fearful of giving advice legislation started in 1966, here in the House of Lords. because of the criminal law, and the story of a mother I drew a place in the ballot for Private Members’ Bills who was subject to the law because she had produced and picked up the Bill that had already been passed in abortion pills for her daughter. These are painful stories. this House—it was this House that pioneered the 295 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 296

[LORD STEEL OF AIKWOOD] Johnson, Sarah Wollaston and Rupa Huq in particular— legislation, not the House of Commons. Although we who have promoted this cause. It is a fundamental made substantial changes to the Bill, it started here change since 1967. and it is worth reminding ourselves of that. I shall quote The third change since 1967, perhaps the most something that I have quoted very often. Dr John significant, is the fact that in 1967 we were legislating Marks, when he retired as the secretary to the British on the only method of abortion, which was surgery. Medical Association in 1992 after 40 years, said: Now, of course, we have the two abortion pills and “Looking back over these forty years, it seems to me that the that has made fundamental difference to how abortion event which has had the most beneficial effect on public health is treated. In Northern Ireland, because of the lack of during that period was the passage of the Abortion Act”. law, we have had changes in the administration, first in That is a remarkable thing for a senior medic to say, Scotland and then in England and Wales, allowing but it is a tribute to this House that that happened. women from Northern Ireland to come and use the Three things have changed substantially since the NHS facilities on this side of the Irish Sea. More than 1967 legislation, which I want to draw to the attention 1,000 did so last year but, frankly, this is not satisfactory. of the House. The first is that in 1967, in terms of the We cannot expect every woman who requires or wants European Union, we were the pioneers in legislating for to consider an abortion to have the time and the abortion. Other countries had not done it. One outcome money to travel across the Irish Sea to use facilities in was that, immediately after our law was passed, we Scotland or England and Wales, but 1,000 have done started to get some traffic from other European countries. so. The fact that these pills are available on the internet People were coming into Britain and Britain was being but, as has been said, at some risk given the state of portrayed as the abortion capital of Europe. The press the law, has led to an appalling situation where people was full of stories about taxis at Heathrow Airport in Northern Ireland can buy the pills on the internet bringing women here. This was a great embarrassment and run the risk of running counter to the law on to the Government at the time and, frankly, an abortion in Northern Ireland, which is the Offences embarrassment to me as the author of the legislation, against the Person Act 1861. That is why we are right but that is what happened. What has changed since to consider making this change now. 1967 is that the rest of Europe has changed its legislation All the medical bodies support the change, including and has in fact gone ahead of the 1967 legislation. the Royal College of Obstetricians, the British Medical Most European countries have based their law on it Association and the Royal College of Midwives. In being a woman’s right to choose up to the 12th or recent weeks we have listened time and again to the 13th week of pregnancy. That is very different from fact that the people and politicians of Northern Ireland the Abortion Act 1967. do not wish to see a statutory trade barrier down the I want to stress that a very important document middle of the Irish Sea, and they are surely right about that influenced me and a lot of people at the time was that. However, what we have at the moment is a the Church of England report Abortion—an Ethical statutory social barrier down the middle of the Irish Discussion, by far the best treatise on the morality of Sea, and that is why we are right to remove it. abortion that I have ever read. It influenced my own church, the Church of Scotland and the Methodist Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB): My Lords, I have Church and I think it influenced opinion in European amendments in this group. I tabled a manuscript countries as well. Most of their legislation is based on amendment, which I think, in light of the Minister’s the belief or doctrine that the Roman Catholic Church comments, is probably not necessary. I did it because put forward right up until the late 19th century, which the sense from the Committee was that Northern said that the soul entered the body at the time of Ireland should come into line with the rest of the animation or quickening. That was the fundamental UK and we should be dealing with a level playing reason that the European countries introduced this field. law making a distinction between abortion up to the I did it also because the CEDAW recommendations 12th or 13th week of pregnancy and thereafter. It is go a little further than the current Abortion Act 1967, very different from the Abortion Act 1967, but it is a in which abortion is limited to up to 23 weeks and fundamental change. Now, of course, the latest country six days. After that, there is a requirement to report if to join in is the Republic of Ireland, so Northern an abortion has been undertaken for severe foetal Ireland stands out quite distinctly as having no abortion abnormality, reported on the form HSA4, stating the at all compared not just to the rest of the UK but to grounds and the diagnosis, because that falls outside the rest of Europe. the remit of the current Act. I did it with the consultation The second thing that has changed since 1967 is the listed, because I am aware that the medical workforce composition of the House of Commons. It is very in Northern Ireland is already in a pretty critical state difficult for us to remember that back in 1966-67, and anything that jeopardises doctors going into general when we were debating this legislation, there were only practice and risks people not remaining in general a couple of dozen women MPs in the Commons. One practice further imperils the overall healthcare of the of them was the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, population there. I hope that people bear that in mind who was in her place earlier today. She gave great in terms of the time required for consultation. support to the legislation, but there were only a couple I am grateful to the Minister and to the noble of dozen women. Now there are a couple of hundred Baroness, Lady Barker, for having spent a lot of time women, and that is why we have had this overwhelming discussing this with me. I also thank the noble Baroness, vote in favour of changing the law in Northern Ireland. Lady Jolly, who is not in her place. There has been a I pay tribute to the women MPs—Stella Creasy, Diana lot of discussion about this. I am grateful to the noble 297 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 298

Baroness, Lady O’Loan, with whom I have also had I will ask the Minister some questions about proposed discussions. It is a credit to all of them that we have new subsection (1) in Clause 9. Recommendation 85 been able to have very open discussions about these requires the repeal of the Offences Against the Person complex issues. Act. They require some form of legislation to enable I had a conversation with the president of the Royal abortion, and a moratorium on the application of College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, who criminal laws concerning abortion. What does this said that I may quote her today. She has been involved mean? Does anybody know what it means? It is obviously in education programmes to help doctors and midwives separate from the Offences Against the Person Act. understand. She pointed out that they need time, but What is the difference, and to which criminal laws does that attitudes change when people understand how to it refer? I wonder whether it refers to the Criminal implement and put the needs of the woman first. She Justice Act 1945, of which noble Lords will be aware, would like the CEDAW changes to come in, because which prevents infanticide. Will the Minister tell me she and her college are in favour of them. However, exactly what we are doing as we legislate to give effect the House needs to be aware that those changes go to recommendation 85(c) on this moratorium on the further than the current Act, to which the noble Lord, application of criminal law. Lord Steel, spoke so elegantly just now and on many There are many other issues in recommendations 85 occasions over the years. and 86 which we are adopting wholesale. I am not sure 7.30 pm whether all noble Lords are familiar with them. Some My request is to allow a longer time period. I looked of them are a bit odd. One says that there must be up the data from 2018 for the number of abortions access to contraception freely. In Northern Ireland we beyond 24 weeks in England and Wales. There were have something which possibly does not apply to the 289, but none proceeded to any prosecutions, as far as rest of the United Kingdom. We have free prescriptions I could ascertain, so those regulations seem to be working for everyone. No mother, no matter her personal well. I am aware, from having looked at the legislation circumstances, is precluded from getting free any and from conversations with other noble Lords, of the contraception that she requires. need to consult under Section 75 of the Northern I do not want to hold back your Lordships too Ireland Act, which the Minister has laid out so clearly. much. Proposed new subsection (2) seeks to abolish I hope that that may help to explain the background. the Offences Against the Person Act. Have noble The other amendment that I have in this group is a Lords considered what this means and what they will simple requirement in line with the Northern Ireland vote for? It means the removal of all restrictions—as I (Executive Formation) Bill report from the Delegated understand it—on any abortion for any reason at any Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which time up to 28 weeks.The most recent medical information recommends that both clauses in the Bill should be which I have been able to find tells me that babies born subject to the affirmative procedure and that the use at about 22 weeks of gestation had a 50% survival rate of the made affirmative procedure would ensure that in 2008. Medical science has advanced considerably the procedure did not undermine the requirement for since then, so that even smaller babies are surviving. the regulations to be in force by 21 October 2019. Will we have a situation in Northern Ireland, even for I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, will a few months, where abortion on any grounds, in any accept this amendment to her amendment, which puts place, for any reason, without any protections is available? in the affirmative procedure. With that, I leave the I suggest that that is not safe and I will come to the debate to the rest of the House. reasons why later. It is not the law here, where abortion is available Baroness O’Loan (CB): My Lords, this is a strange only up to 24 weeks. We know that about 30 babies a Bill, and it seems to get stranger as we go along. year aborted in that situation are born alive—presumably Clause 9, we were told, was not workable. As the noble because some doctor failed to make sure that it did not Lord, Lord Steel, said, the Government indicated happen—and they are left to die. I am not sure that repeatedly that they were going to bring amendments Northern Ireland wants that situation, even for a which would remedy the defects in Clause 9. What we matter of months. What will the regulations that give have now, I am afraid, is equally lacking in clarity, effect to proposed new subsection (2) actually do? We although it contains more subsections. do not know. They may be very much wider than the I will say at the beginning that this is not a Bill in a laws which apply here. Is this what your Lordships situation of grave emergency. There are no human want? The laws which apply here are now regarded by rights judgments that require action by the Government many as unsatisfactory because of the advances in in the absence of the Northern Ireland Assembly— medical science and the care of children. and even if there were, there would be no obligation on us to act. We do not always act in accordance with There is no limitation at all on the scope of the the Supreme Court. I do not know how many of regulations in Amendment 12. Although we do not your Lordships have sat and read the CEDAW know what the regulations will do, or how they will do recommendations in this report. They are interesting, it, we know that for months there will be no requirement in part, because proposed new subsection (2) states for abortions to be performed in a safe place, and no that we will repeal Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences legal protection for the freedom of conscience of Against the Person Act, but it does not seem to deal practitioners—a huge issue for them. with all the consequences of that. I will come back to I will not articulate all the defects, but perhaps I will that later. I look forward to hearing why there is no give one more. In the situation which will result from government amendment that would really put it right. Amendment 12, Northern Ireland will become a rather 299 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 300

[BARONESS O’LOAN] invested in her through Section 26 of the Northern more perilous place, particularly for pregnant young Ireland Act 1998 to make regulations on abortion with women whose husbands or families want them to have special regard to our international obligations. The an abortion for whatever reason when they do not clerks ruled that both amendments were outside the have the time, space or capacity to say no. scope of the Bill and should not be selected because Parliament is currently considering domestic violence they sought to change the law on abortion. The Speaker, legislation. Abortion is one of the major issues in the however, caused great shock by dispensing with this world today. It is a major issue here in the United advice and selecting proposed new Clause 10, although Kingdom. Article 39 of the Istanbul convention—the he did not select proposed new Clause 5. Although convention on preventing and combating violence against proposed new Clause 10 was not in scope, proposed women and domestic violence—requires us to have a new Clause 5 was more seriously out of scope in that it criminal provision to prevent forced abortion and to would have created a new, independent, free-standing deal with it as a criminal offence. The Offences Against regulation-making power with respect to abortion. the Person Act is used in that connection. For example, Proposed new Clause 10—now Clause 9—is actually a man who wanted his wife to abort the baby that she more out of scope than it need be on account of its was carrying was convicted under that Act of putting flawed drafting. Properly drafted, it should require the abortion pills into her drink to ensure that she would Secretary of State to make orders rather than regulations. abort. Those orders could have been used to address problems I am trying to say that I accept that noble Lords that the Member for Walthamstow articulated when are well intentioned, but there are huge gaps in making her speech; for example, regarding prosecutions. Amendment 12, which are dangerous for women in Subject to the identification of suitable powers, orders some ways. We have had 16 hours to look at the could require a much more restrictive approach to amendment; it should have taken much longer and we prosecutions or police involvement and, on the same should have allowed proper consideration of these basis, the making of subordinate legislation to give matters, in the normal manner. Even if your Lordships colour and detail to such matters as information, are still minded to ignore the Sewel convention and all detailing the circumstances in which the termination the other issues relating to devolution, legislating for of a pregnancy can occur. Amending Clause 9 to lacunae, as Amendment 12 does, is possibly irresponsible. bring it within the scope of the Bill would also have Brett Lockhart QC is a leading member of the the benefit of giving the Bill more integrity because it Bar in Northern Ireland. He said that the absence of would sit much better with the abortion requirements regulations between October and January would be in Clause 3(8), which require that a review of abortion legally chaotic and would have significant implications law in Northern Ireland be conducted and that proposals for quality assurance, et cetera. Moreover, the extent for changes in the law be considered. This is entirely to which the current guidelines would have any impact incongruous with any attempt to read Clause 9 as on the new legal situation remains entirely unclear. introducing a radical change in the law. Can the Minister assure us that there will not be legal chaos in Northern Ireland for months—and possibly 7.45 pm longer if things go badly wrong in the process of On previous occasions, the Minister has said that trying to get this together? I ask noble Lords not to this House has been given an instruction by the other rush into legislating in this way. It cannot be said to be place. It seems quite difficult to say that the instruction fit for purpose. was clear. The clearest message from the other place in relation to abortion pertains to Clause 3, which was Lord Morrow: My Lords, in speaking to the suite of passed unanimously in the other place, whereas Members amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, were divided on proposed new Clause 10. In this Lady Barker, and her co-signatories, I want to engage context, it would be more respectful of the Commons with two points. The first relates to due process and to tidy up its amendment by replacing “regulations by how we must understand these amendments in terms statutory instrument” with “orders” because, first, the of the broader approach adopted by Westminster to democratically elected House has placed this matter the Bill. The second relates to the impact of the within Section 26 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. amendments themselves.In approaching the amendments, Secondly, tidying up the amendment would enable it we must remember that the Bill has become distorted to address difficulties, expressed by the Member for as a result of our dispensing with constitutional due Walthamstow in moving it, with respect to matters like process. That was seen in the dispensing of scope and the role of the police. Thirdly, doing so would move us the insertion into a Bill of matters that should have back towards the scope of the Bill. Fourthly, it makes been the subject of Bills in their own right—a Bill that sense to read the provision in this way if we are to was subjected to fast-tracking and without regard to respect the strongest abortion message from the House, the recent vote of the Northern Ireland Assembly. which came in the form of unanimous support for the The issue of scope is raised in the amendments but, abortion provisions in Clause 3, which call not for to understand its significance, we need some context. significant changes in abortion law at this moment but It is noticeable that, in the other place, two amendments for a consideration of the options. were laid that sought to change the law on abortion. In contrast, the amendments in the name of the Proposed new Clause 5 sought to create a new regulation- noble Baroness, Lady Barker, break with scope in a making power for the Minister with respect to changing much more radical way—more so than proposed new abortion lawin Northern Ireland. Proposed new Clause 10 Clause 5, which was not selected in the other place. required the Secretary of State to use powers already The idea that we could accept an amendment that 301 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 302 seeks, through this Bill—whose purpose pertains to dramatically in Northern Ireland, even since the 2016 setting the date of an election—directly to repeal vote in the Northern Ireland Assembly. Not only has Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person the Supreme Court declared that the United Kingdom Act is extraordinary. It makes a complete mockery of is in breach of the European Convention on Human any sense of constitutional due process or a rules-based Rights because of the position of Northern Ireland on approach to lawmaking. We must be deeply concerned abortion, but political party views have also changed. about the precedents that would flow from this and It is true that the Democratic Unionist Party still the havoc that it would create with the way we make takes the same position—indeed, a position upon law.The amendments in the name of the noble Baroness which it imposes a party whip, which it is entitled to would remove from criminal lawall remaining protections do. The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, will know that, as for the unborn until 28 weeks’gestation. This would permit a former chief whip of the party. The position of abortion for absolutely any reason, including any kind Sinn Féin, however,has changed quite strikingly,because of disability or gender, up to 28 weeks. It is curious that, when there was a referendum in the Republic of Ireland in 2019, we should be presented with a proposal for it changed the position. It said, “No, we are going to abortion lawreform based on a 50 year-old understanding impose a whip on our party members to say that, whatever of viability. Babies now survive at 22 weeks, as the their conscience—and they are entirely entitled to noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, said. The amendment have it—as public representatives they should vote for would propel Northern Ireland from having the most a change”. What Sinn Féin wants, of course, is a restrictive abortion law in the UK to having the change to harmonise the law in the north with the law most liberal, not only in the UK but in the whole of in the rest of the island. Europe. That a place whose democratically elected Assembly It is also the case that the position of the SDLP—the voted in 2016 by a clear majority not to change abortion noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, will know this because law in any way—a vote which was right across the whole her husband was a representative of the SDLP—has political spectrum—pending an inquiry into abortion changed in that, while the party maintains the same in relation to fatal foetal abnormality, should have a position as party policy, it has opened the door for regime imposed on it by parliamentarians from other members who are elected representatives to speak to parts of the UK where the abortion law would be more their own conscience on the question. The leader and conservative, leaves me lost for words. It would result the deputy leader and other significant colleagues in women who were 27 weeks pregnant travelling from have decided that in all conscience they can no longer England to Northern Ireland to get abortions in our support the party’s position on this issue. Province because the laws protecting the rights of the The Ulster Unionist Party has also allowed it to be unborn in England would be stronger than those in a question of conscience, and the Alliance Party always Northern Ireland. has, although the overwhelming majority of members If we are interested in listening to the other place, and elected members vote for abortion in reasonable this does not represent their intentions at all. When circumstances when the opportunity arises. scenarios such as these were set out in another place, The situation has changed in Northern Ireland. As they were described by the honourable Member for I said on same-sex marriage, I do not believe that most Walthamstow as “myths to be dispelled”. If we are people, including in the nationalist community, will interested in fostering trust between the different parts look on legislation here as being an imposition from of our union, this is not the way to go. I earnestly implore this side of the water. Many will look on it as a noble Lords who believe in respecting constitutional harmonisation of legislation between north and south. due process to reject these amendments. That is why I ask the Minister, when he speaks about consultation, to ensure that the consultation does not Lord Alderdice: I remember, and the noble Lord, look just at how far there is harmonisation with legislation Lord Empey, may remember as well, that many years on this side of the water but at how far there is ago, on Belfast City Council, when it was proposed harmonisation with legislation in the Republic of Ireland. that the Brook clinic be able to establish itself to give This is not an idle question, because one thing that has advice to young women on a range of issues, including not been mentioned when there has been talk about where they might have to go for abortions, my own young women having to come to this side of the water party was supportive of the clinic. Then two older, for abortions is that the Health Minister in the Republic rather socially conservative unionist councillors stood of Ireland, when the referendum was held and the up. I imagined that I knew what they were going to say. legislation was changed there, said that they were One of them was Alderman Tommy Patton, and the prepared to welcome young women who needed to other was Councillor Frank Millar. Both were solid, have abortions to come across the border. working-class men with impeccable loyalist credentials. Those who live here have no idea what an extraordinary Both of them said the same thing. They said, “I have change of position that was. The idea that young come back too many early mornings from the shipyard women in the north might be going south for abortions and from my work and seen young girls bleeding in is almost incomprehensible to those of us who grew back alleys. If the Brook clinic coming to Belfast makes up in Northern Ireland. It just shows how hugely the sure that never happens again, I am voting for it”. situation has changed. We need to facilitate that change The situation has changed a great deal in many of attitudes. It is not a question of people being forced ways, but not in every way, and we are dealing with to have abortions. It is the opportunity to do so when one of the ways it has not changed—the legislation on it is needed. It is usually a very painful business abortion. The mood on abortion, however, has changed emotionally. It does not do for us to make it any more 303 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 304

[LORD ALDERDICE] The amendment raises many questions. It would painful or difficult. That is why I support the amendment appear that it could allow abortion up to 28 weeks. but ask the Minister to ensure that in the consultation While 22 weeks is perhaps the lower end of viability—the it is not just a question of harmonisation within the Minister is shaking his head again but if he can give an UK but harmonisation within these islands. indication of what will be proposed it would be helpful. Is it expected that the laws will replicate in their entirety those in Great Britain? Will there be provisions Lord Elton: I do not question that things have on freedom of conscience? What scrutiny will there changed a great deal, but I do say to my noble friend be? In line with what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on the Front Bench that the Commons do not send us said, will there be an affirmative vote? instructions and our function is not to concur with them. They send us proposals for legislation, and they 8 pm seek and consider our views on them, and our views are important. There is a momentum behind this Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown: My proposal. It is driven by enthusiasm. It has an enormous Lords, I know that this debate is going on somewhat—I backing in the House of Commons. But we still have a notice some faces that are dismayed that it is doing duty to see that it is fit for purpose. so—but I had an appointment tomorrow morning with a consultant in the Royal Victoria Hospital which What worries me, and should worry your Lordships, I had to put off to be here for this debate tonight. are all the things that the noble Baroness has just Therefore, I do not think it is an inconvenience for referred to as to how in some ways it will make things people to deal with such an important issue as the life worse. It will allow children to be born who will then or the death of a child or to spend time debating it have to be left to die. I mention the most emotive properly. of these, but there are many. It seems to me that we should not simply give in to a pressure to get things We must bear in mind that this Bill is being rushed done quickly and do them wrong; we should do them through the House, as it was in the other place, and perfectly. In my view, your Lordships should consider that there seem to be a number of experts in the wings very carefully whether we should not adhere to our who know what people in Northern Ireland think. The function and our traditions and take the time to ask noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, told us how things have the other place to consider whether in fact what has greatly changed. Yes, they have changed because the been shown to be wrong can be put right. noble Lord has left Northern Ireland and come across the pond.

Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD): My Lords, as Lord Alderdice: Is the noble Lord referring to a the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said, some parties change for the better in regard to that particular have whips on the issue of abortion; some parties take point? it as a matter of conscience. I support the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, in many of the things that she has said. Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown: I am The Minister said earlier that there appear to be making no comment whatever. I had a long personal many experts on Northern Ireland. I am not going to relationship with the noble Lord in the Northern pretend to suddenly have become an expert on Northern Ireland Assembly—we spent many happy occasions Ireland. I want to touch on two things. One is my surprise together—and I am not making any personal aspersions that a Bill that was supposed to be about Northern on him. I am stating a fact. Ireland’s Executive formation appears to have become Many noble Lords’ authority for much of what a Bill that goes far wider—as the noble Lord, Lord they have said is that the Northern Ireland Assembly Empey, said in introducing his amendments earlier—to voted for same-sex marriage and that a petition of matters of life and death. Clearly, Amendment 12 concern was used against it, and that is the reason it comes into that category. was stopped. But it is amazing that they are not using On Monday the Minister told us that there was an that argument now. They are not appealing about instruction from the House of Commons. Like the what the Northern Ireland Assembly did in its last noble Lord, Lord Elton, I was surprised to hear about vote two years ago because it does not suit their this instruction. Given that we have a very clear indication argument. The Northern Ireland Assembly took a from the Commons that they wish the issue of abortion stance and, by a large majority, voted not to change to be brought into this Bill, and there clearly appears the legislation. I wait for the Front Benches of both to be a view across the Chamber that any consultation parties to say, “Let us listen to the Members of the should be on how, not whether, I have a set of concerns Assembly. They made a decision and we have, as it that I would like the Minister to address, many of were, a democratic authority to take this forward”. which have been touched on. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, mentioned my The Minister said that the consultation will be party’s policy and its members being whipped to vote completed by 31 October. We have three months. He is for it. Without apology, let me explain why. It was shaking his head. I was going to raise my concern that, because we put it in our manifesto. We put it before if the consultation is being done over the summer, who the people and they voted for us. I know it is strange is going to be consulted, how are they going to be for a party to actually stand by its manifesto—today it consulted and is there adequate time? A related question seems you say one thing to get elected and then do the is: if there were to be a general election and purdah, opposite when you get elected—but I will not apologise, that would wreck any timing, so could all that be nor will my colleagues or my party, to anyone in this taken into consideration? House for standing by the promise we made to the 305 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 306 electorate and asking them, on the basis of it, to vote I am happy to have the opportunity to speak for the for us—and they did. They made us the largest party unborn child and to say that they have a right to live, in the Assembly. I will take no lectures from someone and not to be told that they should die. who says, “We dismiss the DUP because they whipped their members to vote for it”. Baroness Browning (Con): My Lords, I had not intended to speak but I would like to ask about two The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said that the matters in the light of what the noble Lord, Lord SDLP and Sinn Féin have changed. If the House McCrea, has said. Yesterday was my first sitting on believes that, why does it not agree with the statement the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, in Amendment 16 that the Secretary of State must, on to which your Lordships have kindly placed me. “consult individually with members of the Northern Ireland The noble Lord is right: the noble Baroness, Lady Assembly on the proposals of the regulations”— Finlay, and others mentioned the determination of ask them if they have changed their mind? This is our committee in not looking at the policy or the being rushed through before they have the opportunity moral issues of the two clauses before your Lordships’ to say, “We have not changed our minds”. The majority House but looking at the technicality of whether this of the elected Assembly are still standing by what they is good legislation, and whether it is properly drafted believed before. If this House believes they have changed and is not going to cause problems with existing their minds, it should support the amendment which legislation as we go forward. allows them to be asked rather than make the decision On the question of the need for an affirmative rather before they are asked. than a negative resolution, as a member of that committee, The 59th report of Session 2017-19 of the Delegated and as that is our report’s main recommendation, I Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on the would be grateful if my noble friend the Minister would Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill is important. confirm what his view is of the committee’s report It states: with regard to the need for an affirmative resolution. “Given the very wide-ranging nature of the powers, including Perhaps he could also give some indication, in the light the power to amend primary legislation, and the politically sensitive of that and his previous remarks about the legislation nature of the provisions, we firmly believe that the negative as drafted in another place, of whether he is minded to procedure does not offer an appropriate level of Parliamentary introduce government amendments in line with the scrutiny and that the affirmative procedure should apply instead”. recommendations of the committee, if only to correct It continues: what he himself has identified as flawed legislation. “Neither clause”— That is a purely, if you like, techy contribution to that is on same-sex marriage or abortion— this debate, because it seems to me, after 27 years in “requires the Secretary of State to consult bodies and interests in this building, in both Houses, that good legislation is Northern Ireland before making the regulations … However, we our job—that is what we are required to do—and if we accept that imposing such a duty would be incompatible with the do not do it properly, there are consequences. It is not timescale for making the regulations”. unknown for courts to ask, “What was the intention It then makes the recommendation: of Parliament at the time?”. There is nothing worse for “We recommend that both clauses should be subject to the a court case than not to be absolutely clear what affirmative and not the negative procedure”. Parliament intended when we legislated. That is what It then states: we are sent here to do, so we have to get it as technically “We find the Minister’s reason for retaining the negative good and as legally correct as we possibly can. procedure, namely that it was ‘the clear will of the House of My second point to my noble friend the Minister is Commons’, wholly unconvincing”. a more personal one. I am not against abortion, although That was not written by me or any of my noble I would certainly like to see the upper limit for abortion colleagues but by the distinguished members of that come down. I agree—I have seen 22 week-old infants committee. I ask Members of this House: do we in prem baby units survive, and it is time for an dismiss them too? adjustment there. However, that is not the matter of this debate. I have heard one or two contributions The issues we have been discussing today have tonight which I am not absolutely clear about, on this tremendous moral implications for our nation, especially matter of 28 weeks in Northern Ireland. Can my noble in Northern Ireland. I am sad that, at a time when we friend confirm whether, if this goes through, it will be need spiritual leadership, there is a Bench that is compatible with the rest of the country or whether in completely empty and its members are not present to fact there will be some differential in Northern Ireland? give us that spiritual leadership on issues which have The thought of 28 weeks fills me with horror. major moral implications for the people of the United Kingdom. Lord Bruce of Bennachie: My Lords,this is a conscience I trust I am not reading too much into it but, when issue and a sensitive one and, certainly on these Benches, the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, sat down, I noticed it is a matter for a free vote. Nevertheless, we are also that the Minister was immediately able to read off faced with the fact, as the noble Baroness just said, detailed scripts to answer all the points that she raised this is not necessarily the ideal way to legislate on this in the debate. It is interesting that all the answers were issue. But we are not in an ideal situation: we have no immediately given rather than the Minister waiting for Assembly, we have growing pressures for change, and help at the end of the debate. It makes one believe that we have the view of the House of Commons, which much of what we are going through has been carefully wants change. Therefore, effectively, these amendments choreographed and all we are being allowed to do is to are trying at least to move forward to implement the go through the motions of being able to speak. However, will to address the issue. 307 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 308

[LORD BRUCE OF BENNACHIE] not quite understand why there is such a rejection of When one looks at the statistics of 12 abortions the question of whether these are proper matters for being allowed in Northern Ireland and more than the Bill. 1,000 women travelling out, it is patently clear that there is an imbalance that needs to be considered, at Baroness Smith of Basildon: I refer the noble Baroness the very least. It is not just the conscience issue; we are to the Companion and the Standing Orders of the facing the basis of a probable human rights issue. We House: if an amendment is accepted by the clerks, it have had the guidance of our own Supreme Court that can only be accepted if it is in scope of the Bill. we could be in breach of the European convention, I will try again to reassure the noble Lord, and there is a case that we are awaiting a judgment on, Lord McCrea, who sounded quite suspicious of the which might confirm that fact. As I have said on a Minister. Drawing on my experience as a Minister, if I number of occasions, if that is the case, the United was responding to a debate, whether in Committee or Kingdom Government and Parliament will be obliged on the Floor of the House, if I was going to be asked to ensure that we comply with the European Convention questions, I would always ask those who had them, on Human Rights. It would of course be much better “Can you let me know them before?” If you are to if it were done in a way that is managed by the elected have an informed debate and make an informed decision representatives in Northern Ireland—that would be at the end of it, you need to be able to answer those the preferred way to do it. questions. That is something I do regularly for Ministers Finally, on the idea that those Members should be to this day when I speak at this Dispatch Box. If there consulted individually, it seems that the best way to are questions I want answers to, I do not want the consult the Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly Minister at the end of the debate not to have had time is for them to convene the Assembly and consult to find them—I want them during the debate. It was themselves. If that was the case, we would not have to courteous of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, to let continue with these amendments at all. the Minister know what those questions were so that he was able to inform today’s debate and let us Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, the noble know the answers. It is good practice and helpful to Lord ends on a note I would have started on. I think your Lordships’ House to have that made available all noble Lords would far rather these decisions were to us. taken in the Northern Ireland Assembly. Many of us, over many years, have supported devolution and On the matter itself, we have had a long debate campaigned for it, and some of us have been direct rule about whether abortion is appropriate and whether Ministers working towards establishing the institutions. people support or oppose it, and so on. That is not The noble Lord strayed into another debate later when what is before us today. The House of Commons, on a he talks about Amendment 16, which is not in this free vote, as it is in your Lordships’ House, voted by group. On that issue, the best way to consult Members 332 to 99 on an amendment to say that there should be of the Legislative Assembly is for them to sit and safe and legal abortions for women in Northern Ireland, conduct their business so that they can take these as there are in the rest of the United Kingdom. There decisions. is an obligation on Parliament to act, under international and domestic law, to assure such access to free, safe I shall pick up a couple of points from the debate. and legal abortions. One was the issue of these amendments not being in scope. I have to say that my experience of the Table If we rejected this today, it would not cut the Office and the clerks of your Lordships’ House is that number of abortions at all. At the moment, as a result they are sometimes infuriatingly proper. I can think of of the laws in Northern Ireland at present, we see over many a discussion that my team and I have had where 1,000 women and girls from Northern Ireland travelling we insisted that something was in scope, but there was to England and Wales—and now, as we heard from no way the clerks would shift if they said it was out of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, to the Republic of scope.I therefore urge your Lordships’House to recognise Ireland. However, we also find—this is one thing that that if we have an amendment before us, it is because it worries me enormously, particularly as technology is in scope. moves on—that women risk their life and liberty by illegally buying abortion pills online, which they then Perhaps I can help the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, take without any medical expertise or support, and on a point he raised earlier from my own experience as they will often delay seeking care if there are any a Minister. He was slightly suspicious of the Minister— complications. In doing so, they risk their life and 8.15 pm their liberty—they could go to prison. Today the Minister is trying to give effect to what was agreed in Lord Morrow: When we talked about amendments the House of Commons. being “outside of scope”, we were talking directly about the other House. I will say something about the Minister’s comments in his reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. His Baroness Smith of Basildon: This House has no remit explanation of and reassurance on regulations was over what the other House says is in scope, but I am welcome. There have been concerns about this issue, sure the clerks and the Speaker would act in a similar and he dealt with it with enormous sensitivity. He will way.Perhaps I can help the noble Lord, Lord McCrea— understand that some were sceptical about the reasons for having a longer timescale—the point my noble Baroness O’Loan: I always thought that the scope friend Lord Dubs made—than for same-sex marriage. of the Bill was articulated in its Long Title, which in I think he was clear, but can he reiterate any of the this case does not refer to abortion. Therefore, I do points on why that is the case? 309 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 310

We know that there are strong opinions on this and we have brought into play the functioning abortion that this is a matter of conscience for everybody. regime. It is important to stress that, although we are Everybody in this House should respect that it is a looking at the 1861 Act and the elements we shall matter of conscience for everybody, and we all have to remove from it, during this limbo period the Criminal abide by our conscience. Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 1945 will still apply. Section 25 will still apply; this makes it a criminal Lord Elton: Is the noble Baroness not going to take offence to destroy any life of a child capable of being any notice at all of the fairly fatal criticisms, in some born. That will apply during that limbo period, until respects, made by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan? we have got to the stage where we have the newly functioning regime. Baroness Smith of Basildon: I listened carefully to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and there is some Baroness O’Loan: To what period does that apply? distance between us; we do not agree. As I pointed My understanding was that the legislation said “twenty- out, this is a matter of conscience and we should all eight weeks”. I just want to clarify that. respect other people’s views. We have to do what we Lord Duncan of Springbank: There seems to be believe in our own conscience to be right. some discussion on this, but I have the answer to that as well. There is some debate on the exact number of Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, I have a weeks at which a foetus will be viable, but it is around large number of pieces of paper. If you will forgive me, 22 to 24 weeks. The important thing to stress here is I will just assemble them into an order I can make that we are not repealing that Act, and there will be no sense of. period during which there will be any sense of an As it was at earlier stages, this has been an emotive opportunity or free-for-all for that aspect to be in play. and thought-provoking discussion. I spoke earlier to, I It is important to recognise that. We cannot have that hope, help the debate to be informed. On choreography, misunderstood as we move through. I always welcome people giving me the questions beforehand, because it helps me work out the answers. Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown: The It really is as simple as that; it is not collusion in any Minister was talking about 22 to 28 weeks; then he sense. It may well have been that I gave the noble said “the foetus”. A child born at 22 weeks who Baroness answers she did not like, but the point was lives—that is happening; as a minister I have seen and that I knew at the outset what the questions would be. visited many little ones born at that time—is not a foetus but a child. The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, began his contribution by asking why the length of consultation could not be Lord Duncan of Springbank: In response to the the same for abortion as for same-sex marriage. There noble Lord, I am a scientist. On occasion I will use is a relatively simple explanation for that. On same-sex scientific words, and on this occasion I just did. That marriage, we have established precedent in England was snippy. I am sorry; that was not my intention. and Wales, and in Scotland, that can be built on in a Forgive me for that, but frustrations can come out in straightforward manner. What we seek to do in Northern debates such as this. Ireland is quite different; there is no roll-across regime As we look at these matters, it is important to try as we can borrow from. As a consequence, the new best we can to be as sensitive as we can. I fully elements of that will require a fuller consultation. We understand the point raised by the noble Lord. There cannot equate the two consultations, because they will be a range of views across this House on these seek to consult on quite distinct and different elements. matters. It is right that we understand and respect I welcome the thought-provoking contribution today those. As we move this matter forward, we seek to give from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. She raised the effect to the legislation as it progressed from the other issue of conscience. I know that a number of Peers place. The important part that I need to stress—it is have been concerned about the conscience element. As important for me to do so and be understood—is that I did during previous discussions, I stress again that the date within the Barker et al amendment, as currently the conscience element must be at the heart of this. We drafted, would cause the Government some difficulty, cannot compel any practitioner to act beyond their own because we would be unable to deliver the very conscience. We must make sure that that is understood consultation we have discussed within that timeframe. in the guidance that will be issued thereafter to all those involved in this process; that is absolutely critical. Baroness Browning: I am sorry; I must be missing something here. Can my noble friend just explain to The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, raised a number me why it is that if this amendment proceeds the of issues. If she will allow me, I will do my best to do timescale for the foetus is not the same as in the justice to them. The first, which I think I touched on legislation in the 1967 Act? Foetal viability—whether the last time we discussed this, was the Sewel convention. it survives—is gauged only after the foetus is born and The important thing to recognise is that under normal becomes a child. What does 22 to 28 weeks refer to? I circumstances we shall use the Sewel convention, but I have not been able to find it in any of the words on any do not think there is any doubt that we are not in of the papers available tonight. normal circumstances. The Sewel convention in this instance will not apply. Lord Duncan of Springbank: It is important to The question that I suspect my noble friend Lord Elton, recognise here that we are not discussing the 1967 Act the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and others will at all, I am afraid. That will not be moved across in raise is that of what happens during that limbo period any way. Right now, we are looking at a new regime when we move away from where we are now but before that will be constructed in Northern Ireland. In answer 311 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 312

[LORD DUNCAN OF SPRINGBANK] point and that will be the reality that we will face. It is to the earlier question from the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, not one, unfortunately, that I can answer or offer or about why the consultation period is longer, were we afford any guarantees on. moving across the 1967 regime we would, in truth, be able to do this a little more swiftly. We would be doing 8.30 pm so on the basis of established precedent and rules that exist within the current scheme. However, we are not Lord Empey: It might be helpful to the Minister to doing that. The instruction we received from the other be aware that, in the Assembly of 2007 to 2011, the place was quite clear. then Health Minister redid the guidance to give clarity to the profession. It proved not satisfactory to the There is this question about why there are no profession at that time and work commenced on doing government amendments to move forward on this it again, but the mandate ran out before it was done. matter. The simple answer to that is that, at present, Perhaps it might be helpful if the Minister asked the we have received an instruction from the other place— officials to look that up because there is uncertainty and that is very disturbing. The guidance was the Lord Elton: No, it is not an instruction. problem in the past. It is not that the Assembly never looked at the abortion issue because it did, but it did Lord Duncan of Springbank: Let me answer my not succeed in getting agreement that was acceptable noble friend Lord Elton. If we are not able to move it to the professions. forward, it will not be just an instruction—he is quite right—but the law. That is different, because it will be Lord Alderdice: As someone who had to work with the law that will move forward, and we as a Government the guidance before the legislation came through— will struggle with that deliver what we need, which is a and this is for reassurance to colleagues—I know safe and secure system that places women at its heart. that the problem was that the medical profession We will not be able to do so in the time limit we have had to work without guidance for a long time. What set out, and that is the reason we have a problem. My happened was that the guidance was introduced partly noble friend Lord Elton, is absolutely right: we are not to satisfy— talking about an instruction. This is a law that will come into force, which we will have some difficulty trying to maintain and will potentially allow itself to Baroness Barran (Con): I remind the noble Lord be opened up to further judicial interrogation and that we may speak only once at this stage. review.Ultimately,this will do a disservice to honourable Member in the other place who has tried to move this Lord Duncan of Springbank: I heard the noble forward in the manner in which he has. Lord, if that helps, so I understand the point that was about to be made. I welcome that and appreciate it, as Lord True: This is a minor point, in some ways, but indeed I appreciate the comments from the noble it is fundamental. Nothing can be law unless both Houses Lord, Lord Empey. There is no doubt that, as the agree to it, so while this is not agreed by both Houses consultation process unfolds, these elements will be and assented to by the monarch, it is a law in the making. drawn on. We cannot simply ignore them. I am concerned about the process here, as I referred to It is important to ensure that the regime that we bring in an earlier debate. It is not desirable. In the light of in to Northern Ireland is human rights-compliant—that that, in a fast-track process we must have clarity. This is absolutely at the heart of this—and that within has been asked by various Members in this House: what those human rights remain elements of conscience is the guarantee that there will not be a case in Northern and freedom of expression which we also spoke of Ireland where a child—or foetus, if the Minister likes—is earlier when we spoke about same-sex marriage. The aborted after more than 24 weeks in the period after amendment would also see the repeal of Sections 58 the passage of this law? What is the guarantee? What and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, is the safeguard in law? What is the case law on the together with putting in place a moratorium against subject? Perhaps my noble friend the Minister will able current and future investigations and prosecutions, to advise the House before Third Reading. which will decriminalise abortion in Northern Ireland, allowing terminations to take place where they fall Lord Duncan of Springbank: The challenge that my within the framework of other existing protections noble friend sets me is a difficult one. I cannot give a and laws. guarantee in that regard because I am not in a As this change will come in before the details of the position to control the situation in Northern Ireland new medical regulatory regime are finalised and that nor the medical profession. It is beyond my ability to scheme is introduced, to mitigate the risk of abortions do so. What I have said is that before we have been being carried out in circumstances that would fall able to bring in the necessary elements of the new outside the prospective regulatory scheme, we will regime, there will be a period during which we will be ensure that appropriate measures are put in place, bound by the established earlier Act from the 1940s such as guidance issued by relevant Northern Ireland which will give the confidence that we are not seeking bodies, to provide legal clarity for the people affected to undermine in any sense the practice that has gone and for the medical profession. Therefore, in answer to on there. But we have to recognise that during that my noble friend Lord True’s point, our ambition is for limbo period, health practitioners, doctors and others this process to be recognised—and it will be a significant will not be in receipt of guidance from us because we change—but to allow each step to take place in a will not be in a position to draft that guidance by that carefully considered legal manner. 313 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 314

In putting in place the new regulations, it is only Lord Duncan of Springbank: I thank the noble right that a period of consultation is taken forward, Baroness. That is very useful indeed. I ask my officials not on the question of whether this should be done in the Box to remember that. but focusing on how it will be done and to seek views In drawing these remarks to a close, I am also on the proposals for how best the recommendations of conscious of the remarks about the affirmative procedure. CEDAW can be implemented in Northern Ireland. I would be minded to accept that if things came That is our purpose. We appreciate that there is existing forward in a fashion that would allow me to do so. As evidence supporting this type of case for reform, which we are potentially at an impasse, I turn my attention we have spoken about before, such as legal judgments, directly to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. We can domestic inquiries and international reports.Werecognise discuss the date of the amendment before Third Reading those and have heard that case. in the hope that we can find that common ground. We will need to think very carefully about how we Returning to the question from the noble Baroness, implement the CEDAW recommendations generally, Lady Finlay, I say that we may also be able to consider including how we meet the recommendation to provide that as part of a common approach on the affirmative an exception in cases of rape and incest, which will procedure. require very careful consideration of the sensitive and I appreciate that this has not been an easy debate. I distressing nature of these circumstances. am fully aware—as a number of noble Lords have We will also consider all the necessary other said—that this matter appears not to come under the amendments which may be required as part of the title of the Bill. However, I return to the point made by introduction of the new abortion regime. Wewill carefully the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that these procedures consider the impact of Section 5 of the Criminal Law have been deemed to be in scope. Indeed, I will go Act (Northern Ireland) 1967, including whether any further and say that criticism of the other place in this amendments are required as part of the changes made regard is deemed to be out of order in this House. elsewhere in legislation. The Government will work expeditiously between now and 21 October 2019 to Baroness Smith of Newnham: When I spoke before, ensure that all possible necessary steps are taken, but I the noble Lord indicated that he would respond on the return to the fact that I am still struggling with the issue of consultation. ultimate deadline in the amendment. It is also important to stress at this point that our ambition is to try to Lord Duncan of Springbank: The noble Baroness realise this in a safe and secure manner for the women wants a piece of paper that has now become buried in of Northern Ireland. That is the guiding point of this. the strata on my desktop. It is important that we now recognise the reality of the time we have. The holiday I was asked a question about abortions at 24 weeks. period primarily limits our ability to begin any serious We can guarantee that no abortions will be carried out consultation. We will have to design it carefully. We over 24 weeks. In this limbo period, it would be an anticipate being able to initiate such a consultation in offence under the 1945 Act as these would indeed be the early autumn. In an ideal world, we could see it deemed to be viable, and would be children. I say that being 12 weeks but we may be able to pull it forward in response to the noble Lord, Lord McCrea. After to eight. We have to recognise thereafter that simply the new regime, we would not introduce legislation doing a consultation is not enough: we have to consider that allowed later abortions than are taken in England its elements. We are not able to deliver the outcome of or Wales. We would seek harmony. that by the October date. Oh, I have the piece of paper with the questions Baroness O’Loan: I am sorry. I need clarity on this. that the noble Baroness asked—forgive me. I think I It is very important. The Minister just said that, under will be able to answer the affirmative vote question, the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 1945 it which we can take forward at Third Reading, if that is would be a limit of 24 weeks. Is that what was said? possible. The question of freedom of conscience rests within our human rights commitments, to which we Lord Duncan of Springbank: Yes. remain committed. The guidance must be very clear that no doctor, health practitioner, nurse or anyone Baroness O’Loan: But the Criminal Justice Act else will be compelled to act beyond their conscience would need amendment to get to 24 weeks. or beyond their tolerance in that regard. She asked about events. I have no idea what is going to happen, but we must plan in a smooth and careful manner. I Lord Duncan of Springbank: Not as I understand it, am not looking forward to any serious election issues; no. It would not. If I am incorrect, I will happily I hope that does not happen. correct the record. That touches on the answers to the questions, I think. On that basis, I look across the divide to the Baroness Hayman (CB): I will attempt to be helpful. noble Baroness, Lady Barker, in the hope that she is I think the focus on the 28 weeks comes from the willing to consider it. Infant Life (Preservation) Act, which gave the number of weeks as that when we had the debates on the Baroness Barker: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords— Act from the noble Lord, Lord Steel. As I understand particularly the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan—for their from the Minister, the 1945 Act—which I am not contributions. It is extremely important that we have familiar with—talks about viability and his solution to discussed these matters in the fashion that we have. At that problem was guidance that viability would have this late hour, I do not intend to say anything in great occurred by 24 weeks. detail. I thank the Minister for the very thorough way 315 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 316

[BARONESS BARKER] Dholakia, L. Meacher, B. in which he has addressed questions from all sides of Donaghy, B. Newby, L. the House. He has managed to put to rest a number of D’Souza, B. Noakes, B. Dubs, L. Northover, B. fears. Duncan of Springbank, L. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. There are just three matters on which I need to Elder, L. Oates, L. respond. The first concerns Amendment 19A in the Evans of Bowes Park, B. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. In the light Fairhead, B. Osamor, B. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Paddick, L. of comments—not least those of my noble friend Fookes, B. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Lord Steel—I hope that she will understand why it Foster of Bath, L. Parminter, B. would be inadvisable to go ahead with her amendment, Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Patel of Bradford, L. and I hope that she will not press it. Fox, L. Patel, L. Fraser of Corriegarth, L. Pinnock, B. The second and key point, made by a number of Gale, B. Pitkeathley, B. noble Lords, was whether there would be an interregnum Garden of Frognal, B. Porter of Spalding, L. in which there would be no regulation whatever on Geddes, L. Price, L. abortion in the Province. The answer to that is quite German, L. Prosser, B. clear: there will not be. Notwithstanding what the Glasgow, E. Purvis of Tweed, L. Glendonbrook, L. Quin, B. Minister has said about what the Government intend, Goldie, B. Razzall, L. there are the professional ethics of bodies such as the Golding, B. Redesdale, L. RCOG, the RCGP and the Royal College of Midwives. Greaves, L. Rennard, L. Those bodies have backed this amendment but they Grender, B. Roberts of Llandudno, L. have professional standards to which they must adhere. Hain, L. Rooker, L. Hamwee, B. Rosser, L. There is also general guidance in general medical law Hannay of Chiswick, L. Scott of Needham Market, B. which would be unaffected by any of this. Harris of Richmond, B. Scriven, L. Thirdly, I say to the noble Lords who pointed out Haskel, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. the anomalies between different Acts of Parliament in Haskins, L. Sharkey, L. relation to 24 or 28 weeks that that makes the case for Hayman, B. Sheehan, B. Hayward, L. Sherbourne of Didsbury, L. updating the law, and this is an occasion on which we Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Shipley, L. could do so. I take the Minister’s point about his Helic, B. Shutt of Greetland, L. problem with the deadline in my amendment, and I Henley, L. Smith of Basildon, B. hope that we might be able to discuss that between this Hodgson of Abinger, B. Smith of Finsbury, L. stage and the next. Holmes of Richmond, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. Hope of Craighead, L. Stern, B. This is an important matter and we have had an Horam, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. important debate. I therefore wish to test the opinion Humphreys, B. [Teller] of the House. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Storey, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. Hussein-Ece, B. Stunell, L. 8.43 pm Janke, B. Sugg, B. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Suttie, B. Division on Amendment 12 Jones of Moulsecoomb, B. Taylor of Bolton, B. Jopling, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Contents 182; Not-Contents 37. Jordan, L. Teverson, L. Kakkar, L. Thornton, B. [Teller] Amendment 12 agreed. Kennedy of Cradley, B. Tomlinson, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Tonge, B. Division No. 2 Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Tope, L. Kirkhope of Harrogate, L. Tunnicliffe, L. CONTENTS Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Tyler, L. Aberdare, L. Bowles of Berkhamsted, B. Knight of Weymouth, L. Vere of Norbiton, B. Addington, L. Bradshaw, L. Kramer, B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Adonis, L. Brinton, B. Layard, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Alderdice, L. Brown of Cambridge, B. Leigh of Hurley, L. Walmsley, B. Amos, B. Bruce of Bennachie, L. Liddle, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Andrews, B. Bryan of Partick, B. Livermore, L. Watkins of Tavistock, B. Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Bull, B. Ludford, B. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Astor of Hever, L. Burt of Solihull, B. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Wheatcroft, B. Attlee, E. Carrington of Fulham, L. Maddock, B. Wheeler, B. Barker, B. Chakrabarti, B. Mar, C. Whitaker, B. Barran, B. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Massey of Darwen, B. Wigley, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. Chandos, V. McDonagh, B. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Bates, L. Chidgey, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Wrigglesworth, L. Beecham, L. Chisholm of Owlpen, B. McNally, L. Young of Cookham, L. Berkeley of Knighton, L. Clancarty, E. McNicol of West Kilbride, L. Younger of Leckie, V. Berkeley, L. Clark of Windermere, L. Blackwood of North Oxford, Collins of Highbury, L. NOT CONTENTS B. Cope of Berkeley, L. Bloomfield of Hinton Courtown, E. Brennan, L. Deben, L. Waldrist, B. Craigavon, V. Browne of Belmont, L. Eames, L. Boateng, L. Crathorne, L. [Teller] Eaton, B. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Crawley, B. Callanan, L. Elton, L. B. Deech, B. Cathcart, E. Empey, L. Bourne of Aberystwyth, L. Desai, L. Craig of Radley, L. Fairfax of Cameron, L. 317 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 318

Hollins, B. Naseby, L. Lord, Lord Morrow. In speaking, despite the result of Hooper, B. Neville-Rolfe, B. the last vote, I make it plain that I intend to divide on Howe, E. Nicholson of Winterbourne, these amendments. Kilclooney, L. B. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. O’Loan, B. Our amendments have a simple intention: to address Marlesford, L. Pendry, L. the very real democratic deficit that underpins the Bill. Masham of Ilton, B. Popat, L. As we all acknowledge, there has been no consultation McAvoy, L. Rowe-Beddoe, L. McCrea of Magherafelt and Seccombe, B. with the people of Northern Ireland about this Bill. Cookstown, L. [Teller] Shinkwin, L. They have not had a say. While I accept that the Bill as McInnes of Kilwinning, L. Smith of Newnham, B. originally drafted was necessary, it seems that the way Meyer, B. Tebbit, L. it has been fast-tracked has had the unfortunate and Montrose, D. True, L. destabilising effect of enhancing the democratic deficit Morrow, L. Wilcox, B. which is so obvious when one reads the Bill, dealing as it does, in many cases, with transferred matters. 9 pm The uncertainty about all this is somewhat The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Morris of Bolton) demonstrated by the vote we have just had. The reality (Con): My Lords, because Amendment 12 is agreed, I is that we still have an Infant Life (Preservation) Act. cannot call Amendments 13 or 14 for reasons of It is not repealed by this Bill. Therefore, the period of pre-emption. 28 weeks to which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, referred is the period in that Act, and the Criminal Amendments 13 to 14A not moved. Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 1945 makes that the offence. That is why the period will be up to 28 weeks, Amendment 15 not 24 weeks. I accept that the Minister was unaware Moved by Lord Hayward of this, but that is the situation. There is an awful lot of uncertainty around this Bill, as I said in my previous 15: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— speech. “Regulations: procedure and supplementary 1 (1) Regulations under section 8 are to be made by statutory In normal circumstances, we would have had a instrument. minimum of 31 days to consider this Bill. We have had (2) A statutory instrument containing regulations under seven days since Second Reading and we received the section 8 is subject to annulment in pursuance of a final marshalled amendments today—I think I got the resolution of either House of Parliament. last one at 12.44 pm. I do not know how your Lordships (3) A power to make regulations under section 8 may be feel, but I think it is very difficult to grasp the implications used to make different provision for different purposes. of the various amendments to this now very complex (4) Regulations under section 8 may make incidental, Bill. That is demonstrated by our last exchanges. supplementary, consequential, transitional or saving In my previous amendment, I focused on the provisions provision.” in this Bill that have the scope to change the law on abortion and same-sex marriage. I listened to your Amendment 15 agreed. Lordships and decided to narrow my focus to abortion, for the simple reason that the Northern Ireland Assembly Amendment 16 debated same-sex marriage and voted on it by a majority, Moved by Baroness O’Loan and it was then blocked by a petition of concern. 16: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— Given that the matter was effectively passed by the “Requirement for majority of MLAs to support regulations Assembly, I felt it was unnecessary to include same-sex (1) Before a statutory instrument can be laid in each House marriage in this amendment. of Parliament under section 9 of this Act, the conditions However, it continues to be my view that abortion is in subsections (2) and (3) must be met. a transferred matter which, having been rejected by a (2) The first condition is that the Secretary of State must— significant majority of the Northern Ireland Assembly (a) consult individually with members of the Northern in 2016, really should not have been dealt with in this Ireland Assembly on the proposals of the regulations; very rushed manner. It does, after all, go against the and advice of last week’s report from the Constitution (b) lay a report before each House of Parliament on the Committee, which said: outcome of the consultation held under this section, “Wereiterate our concern about the routine nature of fast-tracking including the number of members of the Northern legislation relating to Northern Ireland. It is constitutionally Ireland Assembly in favour of and against the unacceptable save for exceptional and urgent circumstances”. regulations. (3) The second condition is that the relevant regulations The letter to the Prime Minister, which I drafted under section 9 may only be laid before Parliament if a with the noble Lord, Lord Eames, has attracted a majority of the members of the Northern Ireland remarkable response from right across what is sometimes Assembly support the regulations as stated in the report described as “our divided community” that has been laid before Parliament under subsection (2)(b).” extraordinary to see. More than 19,000 people have now signed the letter to the Prime Minister. That would Baroness O’Loan: My Lords,in moving Amendment 16 be the equivalent in England, Scotland and Wales of I shall speak also to Amendment 16A. Amendment 16 half a million people responding over the weekend, is in my name and those of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, which I do not think has ever happened. We are asking and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay; the Prime Minister to withdraw the Bill—because of Amendment 16A is in my name and that of the noble the uncertainties demonstrated in your Lordships’ 319 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 320

[BARONESS O’LOAN] I want to take your Lordships to two homes just House and to which I have referred, and because it very briefly. In the first are a couple who are very is such significant law—or, at this very late hour, to happy and expecting their first child. They are told support Amendments 16 and 16A. that the child has Down’s syndrome and they are In proposing new Clause 10 in another place, counselled to have an abortion. They have that abortion, on abortion, which became Clause 9 in our Bill, I am grieving desperately that they must have it, but do not conscious that the honourable Member for Walthamstow feel they could manage a child with Down’s syndrome. spoke of the importance of devolution. She said: Having had the abortion, they are then told that the “New clause 10 is carefully crafted to respect the fact that, at child did not have Down’s syndrome. It happens. The the moment, we do not have an Assembly. If there were an second home is that of a friend of mine who was told Assembly, it could step in and deal with the criticisms that have that their baby had anencephaly. Again, abortion was been levelled at us”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/7/19; col. 182.] counselled. They did not have that abortion. They Although the Assembly is suspended, and we do not decided they wanted to bring their baby into the have an Executive, we still have 90 Assembly Members. world, say hello to it and keep it safe for as long as Without in any way changing the amendment tabled possible. When their baby was born, it did not have an by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker,our new amendment anencephaly. The science—and the way the Abortion provides a means whereby it can be given effect in a way Act happens in England and Wales—is not perfect, that better demonstrates respect for devolution, which, and we need to think very carefully about what we are as the honourable Member for Walthamstow says, is doing and why we are doing it. important. It also demonstrates respect in this House Most of your Lordships come from England, Wales for the constitutional integrity of Northern Ireland. and Scotland. There are a few of us from Northern This is democracy. I believe passionately, as do Ireland, but we are very few in your Lordships’ House. 19,000 others—and the number is growing all the time Your Lordships live in jurisdictions with more conservative —that if Northern Ireland is to be treated with respect laws than would be suggested by the recommendations on this important devolved matter, MLAs must be in paragraphs 85 and 86 of the CEDAW conventions, given a say. If noble Lords turn their back today so I looked at what your Lordships and Parliament on the 90 MLAs, and deny them this rule, they will have done in the past. What are the moments now effectively be saying, “Let’s go back to direct rule”. As regarded with profound embarrassment? One, I found, someone who lives in Northern Ireland, let me tell the is the imposition of the poll tax on Scotland before the House that the people have no wish to go back to rest of the UK, even though everyone knew that direct rule. opposition to the poll tax in Scotland was particularly The Minister talked about consultation, initially in strong. Possibly the best example was when terms of Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act, the parliamentarians from the rest of the UK imposed a equality consultation requirement. That is a statutory Bill on Wales, against the opposition of practically requirement. The Government have no option; there every Welsh Member of Parliament—just as was the has to be a Section 75 consultation. All the policies case in the House of Commons last week—and quickly and everything else will have to be Section 75-proofed. created the Tryweryn dam in the early 1960s to provide The Minister indicated a much wider consultation. water for Liverpool. Both instances became driving forces for nationalism—think about that in the context I have so many questions about this Bill that we of Northern Ireland—and are now regarded in need to consult about. It is not just about what your Westminster, I believe, with some embarrassment, and Lordships are proposing. Amendment 12—now new public apologies have been issued. Clause 9, I guess—is completely lacking in detail. I do not know what abortion law will look like when your I do not think your Lordships want to author a Lordships are finished with it. I do not know whether similarly black moment in the history of the union. That it will be like Irish law,which is drafted, so the Government can all be redeemed by voting for Amendments 16 of Ireland have said, to limit abortions in most cases and 16A. I commend the amendment to the House to 12 weeks, or whether it will be like your Lordships’ with my three parliamentary co-signatories and my legislation, the Abortion Act, which allows abortion 19,000-plus compatriot co-signatories. This is an up to 24 weeks, and allows the abortion of people with amendment that we cannot allow to pass unamended—the a disability right up to birth. I do not know what your stakes are too high. I beg to move. Lordships are proposing to impose on the people of Northern Ireland. That is a very important deficit in Amendment 16A (to Amendment 16) what is being put before the House today, and the Moved by Baroness O’Loan product of a very rushed process. We have MLAs and we trust and vote for them; it is 16A: After Clause 9, after subsection (3) insert–– imperative that the Bill is the subject of some negotiation “(4) Section 9 comes into force on whichever is the later with them. I think the House knows, having listened to of–– this debate, that far too many questions—what the (a) the date prescribed in any other provision of this time limits could be, how that could work, what the Act; and impact of doing this or that would be, how the royal (b) the date on which the conditions in subsections (5) colleges will respond and how we would provide—remain and (6) are met. unanswered. This is not, in my experience, how your (5) The first condition is that the Secretary of State must— Lordships normally make legislation—in a way that (a) consult individually with members of the Northern precludes proper consultation. There are fundamental Ireland Assembly on the proposed repeal under that principles of constitutional law at play here. section; and 321 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 322

(b) lay a report before each House of Parliament on I expect the consultation will do its best to secure the the outcome of the consultations held under this agreement of those Members. As the noble Baroness, section, including the number of members of the Lady Smith of Basildon, said, it would be better still if Northern Ireland Assembly in favour of and against the proposed repeal. the Assembly were to meet but my understanding is that it is not in our power to arrange that. What we (6) The second condition is that a majority of the members of the Northern Ireland Assembly support the proposed can do is to require that the consent of its Members is repeal as stated in the report laid before Parliament obtained. I have little doubt that any kind of reasonably under subsection (5)(b).” flexible consultation will take full account of their views. I would hope that it resulted in an agreement by The Deputy Speaker : My Lords, the amendment is its Members, at least by a majority, in favour of the long and has been circulated, so with the leave of the ultimate regulations. House, it will not be read out in full. As the noble This is not so much about the subject matter of the Baroness, Lady O’ Loan, has already spoken to it, Bill, so far as I am concerned, except that it is outside perhaps she could move it formally. its original purpose. The matter is also in a Bill that our Constitution Committee strongly recommended Baroness O’Loan: My Lords, at this late hour, I beg should not be dealt with by this method. These are to move Amendment 16A. very important matters. Should regulations be created in this way for Northern Ireland without every possible Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, I have put respect being paid to the attitude of the people of my name to Amendment 16 with a good deal of Northern Ireland to this subject? I have received a very consideration. First, when the Bill was introduced by large number of emails and other communications the Government, it was absolutely plain that its scope suggesting different points of view on this matter. Not did not embrace either same-sex marriage or the abortion all have been in one direction, but most were against provisions. In that situation, it was also introduced as doing anything about this. That is not why I support a Bill that required dealing with by a very quick this: it is because I believe it essential that the devolution procedure. settlement should be observed as far as we possibly We have already dealt with same-sex marriage, which can. We cannot make the Executive meet, unfortunately was already passed by the Assembly at Stormont, but —that is a matter that they have to agree—but we can this provision is quite different because it was dealt secure their point of view on this important matter with by the Assembly at Stormont and voted against. and I strongly support this amendment for these reasons. Our friends from Northern Ireland—the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for example—have assured us that Lord Lexden: May I ask my noble and learned things are different. I was honoured to be a Minister in friend, if a majority of Members of the Assembly are Northern Ireland for 10 years, but that was rather a against the proposed reforms in the consultation, should long time ago. I have no doubt that things have changed that then halt the change? quite a lot in a number of ways, including the fact that I no longer have any responsibility for it. Lord Mackay of Clashfern: I sincerely hope that that will not happen: that is the reason we have put it 9.15 pm on the basis of the majority being in favour of the It is extremely important, to my mind, that the change. If we were to ask them and they were against constitutional situation in Northern Ireland is taken it, that would be a real slap in the face for devolution. into account. If the Bill had been introduced in such a I have enough confidence in the Government’s way that this was already a subject within it, even if it consultations, and I believe the result would be so was quick that would be something. But the Bill was reasonable, that I expect the majority of the already introduced to the House of Commons as one that had elected Members of the Assembly to support this. to be dealt with quickly for the executive functions of Otherwise, it creates quite a difficult situation so far as Northern Ireland to continue. This subject matter is devolution is concerned. We still have devolution— well outside that scope. What has happened since is devolution to Northern Ireland is there at the present that the House of Commons has introduced, voted on moment, it has not been withdrawn—so I think it is and supported an amendment to deal with abortion in right to acknowledge and hope that the result of the Northern Ireland, which is important and, of course, negotiations and the regulation will be acceptable to has human rights connections and consequences. So the Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly. far as I am concerned, the scope of the Bill has therefore been altered by the House of Commons. It Lord Eames: My Lords, throughout this evening, in already had that provision in it when it came here. It is all our debates and the important decisions that have therefore not surprising that our clerks took the view been taken according to our custom and the way we that the scope of the Bill now enabled the amendment work, there has been, like in a theatre, a backcloth to of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, to be tabled and everything we have done. I believe that even at this late voted on. stage, referring to the words of the noble Baroness, In my submission, it is vital that we know that the Lady O’Loan, we need to put on record what has been present Assembly, or the Members elected to serve in clearly exposed tonight: that we have been rushing it, will be content with the ultimate decision reached through matters of supreme importance to the country by the Government as a result of the consultation that from which I come. Our representatives feel very the Minister indicated is to be undertaken. No doubt deeply that the questions being asked tonight, although in the course of that, they will be able to find out a good they cover very important issues such as abortion deal about the present views of the Assembly Members. and same-sex marriage, were not what we were really 323 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 324

[LORD EAMES] A very limited consultation is suggested here. It questioning. What we were really questioning tonight was says that the Secretary of State must, the theory of devolution, which from its infancy was “consult individually members of the Northern Ireland Assembly”. geared to give us, within the United Kingdom, the local That is set out in a very bare way. Nobody has talked relevance and integrity that we hoped would emerge. about the details of the consultation or how thorough So, in supporting the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, at it would be. It simply refers to speaking to Members of this late stage, I suggest to the long-suffering Minister the Assembly and to considering and reporting on that he take back that which I refer to as the tapestry, their views. That is a very small step to take in finding which in fact surrounds everything we have experienced things out. I do not know what the outcome will be. in the Chamber today. What is being asked about The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, spoke vigorously devolution, and how can we correct it? earlier about the changes of views that he has detected. If that is the case, no doubt it would be reflected in the Lord Trimble (Con): My Lords, turning back to views that Assembly Members would give to the Secretary look at the Bill, one should remember what its purpose of State if she phoned them up and asked them what is. It was to put provisions in place to enable an they think. It would be an easy step to take and it Executive to be formed. Under existing legislation, might help to restore some of those Members’self-respect. there is a period of time in which that has to happen. People do not appreciate just how traumatic their It is then a question of prolonging that time. Essentially, situation is: they were elected to serve in an Assembly the Bill was providing more time for this. but are unable to do so, and they have nothing else There was no surprise about that. This is the fourth besides general activities to turn their hand to because or fifth time that there has been a need to provide they have no way of influencing the powers that be. legislation. People knew that this was going to come This is a modest measure to try to get a degree of and, from the way in which the talks are taking place consultation. Of course, the Minister spoke earlier between the parties in Northern Ireland, they would about consultations on particular matters being conducted have had a fair idea of the likelihood of carrying this over several months. In that timescale, he could easily legislation. There was nothing urgent about it. Nothing get in touch with the 90 Assembly Members, see what surprising had to be done. There was the possibility of their views are and let us know. That would be a good putting the legislation into motion at an earlier stage. step forward, coming as it does at the end of the If someone then came along and tried to hang additional evening. things on it, there would be time to consider them properly. We have not had the chance to do that. When one 9.30 pm considers the matters that have been looked at today, Lord Elton: My Lords, I will make three brief and compares that to what would have happened if, points. First, if I were a better historian, I would be instead of being a Bill relating to Northern Ireland, it able to tell your Lordships when the parliamentary was a Bill relating to Scotland or England, would it procedure that brought the Bill to this House in this have been handled with the same speed, without looking state was more or less outlawed. It was called “tacking”: carefully at what the problems might be? There was no the Government would bring in a Bill and the Opposition serious concentration. We had a Committee stage, but would let it pass only if they could stick on other it did not function as a normal Committee, as we can things that had nothing to do with it. That is what has see by the limited number of things that were mentioned. happened here; it should not happen again. It was not proper legislation and there was no Secondly, what emerges from this is that it is urgent justification for handling it in that way. With more to get the Assembly sitting again. I hope that, behind time, we might have had better debates and been able the scenes—they are certainly not doing it in front of to tease out some of the things that were causing even us—the Government are straining every nerve and the Minister difficulty to work out. Noble Lords will sinew to persuade Assembly Members to get together notice that what I am saying has been said repeatedly and do their job. One obstruction to that is the Good by Committees of this House: this procedure is flawed Friday agreement itself; perhaps, timidly but carefully, and ought not to be followed again. I wonder if there we should start looking at whether it can be amended will be any change or if we will just plough on, hoping without cataclysm. that an Assembly or Executive are formed and scrambling Thirdly, it is clear that there is a total democratic at the last minute to put them together. deficit in what is being proposed. The noble Baroness, In the course of this debate, noble Lords have Lady O’Loan, her two co-signatories and the 19,000 referred to devolution and their desire to see it restored signatories of her letter all propose that, even if they in Northern Ireland. If devolution does function again, do not get together, Assembly Members should for it would mean that our 90 Assembly Members would once express the views of the Province,to great betterment. be able to return to Stormont to discuss and debate things and consider what they are doing. However, Lord Cormack: My Lords, I wish to add brief words they cannot do that as things stand. Assembly Members of support. It is a disgrace that this steamroller legislation themselves cannot form the Administration. Legislation is going through the House. It is quite appalling and it would need to be enacted if Westminster wanted must never happen again. It is not about direct rule. immediately to bring the Assembly into existence for We do not have devolution. What the noble Baroness, some limited purpose. Some of us have suggested Lady O’Loan, and her two co-signatories propose is doing that, but I have not seen any willingness on the very simple. Time without number, I have advocated part of the Government to encourage the Assembly to calling the Assembly together.All the Assembly Members function even on limited matters. could be invited to Stormont and seen individually by 325 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 326 the Secretary of State and her fellow Ministers within than any other, thousands of them, and almost all the space of a single day. That would be something, at come from Northern Ireland. It will be very important least. to reflect on the message that will be sent today if Analogies are never exact but the noble Baroness noble Lords vote against this straightforward amendment. was right to refer to the poll tax. I happened to be the What will we be saying to the people of Northern chairman of an art gallery in Edinburgh at the time of Ireland? What would Parliament be saying to you if, the poll tax; I went up there every month for two or by virtue of parliamentary arithmetic, it was able to three years. I was one of two Conservatives to refuse impose something on your part of the UK, and despite to vote for it in Scotland; I am always proud of that being given the opportunity to give your elected because it was an appalling way to legislate. This is representatives a say, chose not to do so? even worse.I will support the noble Baroness’samendment I am aware that some say that engaging the Assembly for that reason. is not relevant because it is not a matter of votes but of human rights. That argument, however, simply does Lord Morrow: My Lords, I speak in defence of the not stand up to scrutiny. Of course, human rights are amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, engaged, but the idea that they trump consideration Lady O’Loan, to which my name is attached. Since the and sweep away all others is ultimately a recipe for commencement of this debate at around 4 pm today, replacing parliaments with courts. The truth is, as the I have received some 500-plus emails on this issue. I Supreme Court has made very clear, there is no general suspect that I am not unique in this respect. I suspect international human right to abortion, so the debate is that others are finding the same response, and I think not with me on that issue but with the Supreme Court. that this demonstrates that people are exercised, and Moreover, on CEDAW specifically, the expert legal there is real concern about what your Lordships’ House opinion of Professor Mark Hill QC is very clear that does this evening. the pontifications of the CEDAW committee are not The way in which this Bill has been handled, the binding and that the CEDAW convention does not way in which scope has been dispensed with and the even mention abortion and does not have standing to way in which huge issues have been inserted into a read it in. Lest anyone should say I do not care about fast-track Bill designed for completely different purposes human rights, I care about them passionately. I am not is deeply distressing to many people in Northern Ireland. sticking my fingers in my ears and saying that there is When this Bill entered your Lordships’ House we not a human rights discussion to be had here. That is expressed huge concerns about the way in which scope not the point I am making. The Supreme Court may had been dispensed with. This problem has been massively issue a declaration of incompatibility on one very compounded by the events tonight and the passing of narrow aspect of our law as it relates to abortion and the Barker amendment. babies with very serious disabilities. In 2016, when the We are now looking at a situation where abortion is Assembly voted not to change the law in any way, it legal up to 28 weeks, while in GB the limit is 24, for did so pending an inquiry on fatal foetal abnormality, any reason, including disability and gender, so we will which was published after suspension and recommended have imposed on us a definition of viability that is legal changes narrowly on this particular point. 50 years out of date, a situation where abortion clinics The idea, however, that amendments passed tonight will be able to set up in Northern Ireland from the end are the answer to that problem is absurd. These changes of October, and people in England will be able to open up abortion for any reason up to 28 weeks. There travel to Northern Ireland to get abortions that are is no case for that in any binding, proper, international not available at home. legal instrument. In fact, the Supreme Court has indicated Does this House really want devolution? Do we that Northern Ireland’s abortion law is compliant with want to give it any chance of success, or are we saying, international human rights obligations in relation to through our decisions here tonight, that we would disability generally because there is no human right to prefer that devolution did not exist? I suspect that that abortion on the basis of disability. The idea, therefore, is the interpretation that many will put on it. It seems that Northern Ireland has to settle for this approach that this House wants direct rule. If the answer is no, to abortion because of human rights is plainly wrong. then the case for Amendments 16 and 16A is simply Some people might like to adopt an approach to overwhelming. How,in a context where we have 90 MLAs, human rights that says that this is necessary, but it is can we change a key area of devolved policy over their not mandatory. In this context, if we are serious about heads when we have the opportunity to engage them? breathing confidence into devolution and respecting Despite the fact that we are now in the school Northern Ireland, we must engage MLAs as proposed holiday season in Northern Ireland, with many people by these amendments. If the Supreme Court makes a away, the letter of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, binding declaration or if there are other human rights has gathered some 19,000 signatures. That represents developments that necessitate a legal change—indeed, a UK population equivalent of more than half a if there are any other developments that necessitate a million. That could not be overstated. I know that the change—the Northern Ireland Assembly is capable of noble Baroness,Lady O’Loan, has already made reference making those changes. to that, but I make no apology for repeating it. In this context—particularly given the manner in Of all the amendments that we discussed today, which Northern Ireland has been denied constitutional many of which are dominated by people who do not due process hitherto in terms of the dispensing of come from or represent Northern Ireland, let us be scope and the insertion of major issues in a fast-track very clear, this amendment has more co-signatories Bill on the decision to move Northern Ireland from 327 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 328

[LORD MORROW] Ireland has changed quite a lot. I do not like bandying having the most restricted abortion law in the British public opinion polls around, but the latest figures I Isles to having the most liberal, such that it will make have from the 2018 Northern Ireland Life and Times the laws of the home jurisdictions of those who press survey,which is equivalent to the British Social Attitudes these changes on Northern Ireland look conservative—it survey, are that 89% of people in Northern Ireland is only right that, first, before any repeal of primary believe that women should never go to prison for legislation is agreed MLAs are consulted, and if a having an abortion, 82% believe that abortion should majority agree, repeal can proceed; and, secondly, be a matter for medical regulation and not criminal draft regulations are sent to MLAs and, if they agree, law, and 71% believe that it should be a woman’s right that again can be laid before Parliament. to choose whether to end her pregnancy. I believe the I urge noble Lords to vote for devolution and to situation has changed, and we cannot simply say, “The support these amendments. Assembly did that some years ago”. The argument in this amendment was that we should consult Assembly Members now; I say, not if we are dealing with one Lord Lexden: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord issue only. We should consult them on everything and Morrow, has described the case for the amendment bring them back to life that way. I am sorry, but I am and the consultation that would follow.It is overwhelming. not happy about this amendment; it is simply time to I agree with him and I shall vote for the amendment. have another go at the previous amendment. Lord Dubs: My Lords, I find this disappointing. I thought that the point made by the noble Lord, Baroness Smith of Newnham: My Lords, in the Lord Morrow,was the subject of the previous amendment previous set of amendments, the Minister talked about but, never mind, we occasionally stray from one consultation. In his response to this set amendments, amendment to another. could he explain what role would be envisaged for the Members of the Assembly in that consultation? Let me deal with the substance of it. If we were talking, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has on previous occasions—although not tonight—about making Lord Shinkwin (Con): My Lords, I will speak in use of Members of the Assembly to make general support of Amendments 16 and 16A. We have already comments about policies in Northern Ireland, we would heard how understandably upset the people and the be in a different place. However, what we see today, politicians of Northern Ireland are at not having been under the pretext of giving the Assembly a new lease consulted about our imposing massive changes on of life, is the picking out of one issue in the Bill and them on such hugely sensitive issues. But what we have saying, “That is the way in which we should move not heard are the views of disabled people in Northern forward”. If we want Members of the Assembly to be Ireland. For the simple fact is that, if the Bill becomes consulted, they should be consulted over the whole law, human beings in Northern Ireland with conditions range of policies, rather than us picking the one policy like mine will suffer the death penalty for the crime of which noble Lords do not like and saying, “We will being diagnosed with a disability before birth. proceed on that basis”. This is the wrong way to go I asked my noble friend the Minister several questions about it and the principle of consulting the Assembly in Committee on Monday; he answered not one of is negated by wishing to do it only in this partial sense. them, so I will have another try. First, can he tell me We have already discussed the previous amendment what consultation has been carried out of people with and voted on it. I understand that feelings are strong—I Down’s syndrome or their families in Northern Ireland? respect them even if I do not agree with them—but it The Prime Minister prides herself on the Government’s is quite inappropriate at this stage to deal with this professed commitment to equality, so perhaps my sort of amendment. If Members of this House want noble friend the Minister could tell the House what to bring the Assembly back in some form another, let effort the Government have made to establish how us talk about it—let us do it properly—not pick on people with Down’s syndrome and their families in abortion as being the pretext for doing it. Northern Ireland feel about the prospect of human beings with Down’s syndrome being aborted and denied Lord Mackay of Clashfern: The noble Lord will of their equal right to exist? I would be very happy to give course have in mind that the Assembly voted in favour way if my noble friend would care to answer. of same-sex marriage. However, that is singled out, simply because the Assembly voted against it before. Lord Duncan of Springbank: Absolutely.This remains, Therefore, if we are to respect devolution, in view of at present, a fully devolved matter, and that consultation the suggestions that things have changed completely, it would be undertaken by the devolved entity. At the should be given a chance to say so. present time there is no devolved entity, and that consultation has not been undertaken by those MLAs 9.45 pm or by the restored Executive; it is not there. We have Lord Dubs: I am afraid that I do not follow the been able to move this matter forward only since the thrust of that argument. Weare talking about something instruction of the other place only a short time ago. that we talked about in the previous amendment. I am saying that we should not talk about giving the Assembly Lord Shinkwin: I thank my noble friend for his answer. the powers on one issue; there are other issues in the In that case, I hope very much that he will accept Bill but nobody has suggested that we talk about those. Amendments 16 and 16A, since he has just emphasised In any case, I believe that the situation in Northern his commitment to consultation. 329 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 330

Lord Duncan of Springbank: I would not normally birth with Down’ssyndrome are already aborted. Indeed, stand up at this point, but it is important to note that while the last 10 years have seen amazing advances in the consultation envisaged in the early amendments, medicine and technology, they have also seen a which have already passed, would have that full 42% increase in abortion of human beings with Down’s consultation because disabled people in Northern Ireland syndrome. are a protected group. So, the writing is on the wall. If human beings Lord Shinkwin: I wonder whether my noble friend diagnosed before birth with disabilities such as mine could possibly help me with this question. Could he were wild animals, they would be given endangered tell me why— species status and protected by law. But we are only disabled human beings, so instead we face gradual Baroness Smith of Basildon: May I suggest that if extinction. That is what this Bill imposes on Northern the noble Lord wants the Minister to answer questions, Ireland, without consultation. he makes his speech and the Minister answers at the I close with two questions for my noble friend. He is end? That would be a courtesy to the House, and more rightly respected as a leading advocate of LGBT rights helpful. and I take this opportunity to congratulate the noble Lord Shinkwin: The question is actually directly Baroness, Lady Barker, on her recent marriage and to related to the House, so if I may I will continue. wish her and her wife every happiness. Love is love. It is a wonderful thing, as is the personal and societal I wonder if my noble friend, or indeed anyone in security, stability and happiness that flow from it. My the House, could tell me why—I can quite understand point is this: I would never presume to invalidate why the noble Baroness would perhaps not like me to anyone’s love for another human being, including by ask this question—as someone who was born with a denying them the right to get married. But why, then, disability, I am good enough to sit in your Lordships’ do my noble friend and the Government use this Bill House, but this Bill suggests that someone diagnosed to invalidate the most fundamental right of all: every before birth with a disability such as mine in Northern human being’s equal right to exist? For that, ultimately, Ireland would only be considered good enough for the is what this Bill does, and without the consent of the incinerator. Because that is the brutal message of this people of Northern Ireland or their MLAs. Bill: if you are diagnosed with a disability before birth in Northern Ireland, you will not just be worth less My last question is this. Recent reports in the media than a non-disabled human being; you will be worthless— suggest that the day is fast approaching when a you would be better off dead. What a dreadful message predisposition to same-sex attraction can be established for this House to send the people of Northern Ireland, before birth. Yet there will be nothing to prevent without even having consulted them in advance. abortions on that basis, although another reason would As a disabled person, I am used to people feeling presumably be given. Would my noble friend stand at sorry for me, but today it is I who feel sorry for the Dispatch Box and defend the right for people to my party. What a desperately sad position this Bill make such a choice, or would he stand with me and puts my party in. Not only does it make a mockery of say that such discrimination would be unacceptable any pretence at government neutrality on a matter of and wrong? If, as I hope, he would join me in opposing conscience; it also enshrines inequality in law for such discrimination, how can he possibly defend such Northern Ireland—and all this without consulting the discrimination against human beings whose only crime people of Northern Ireland or their MLAs. How is to be diagnosed with a disability before birth? ironic that this is happening just before we celebrate a It is no less unacceptable and wrong for us to quarter of a century since my party, the Conservative impose such inequality on the people of Northern Party, introduced the Disability Discrimination Act, Ireland without their consent. It is vital that, at the which championed disability equality. very least, that consent is secured by introducing a Perhaps saddest of all is the legacy the Prime Minister requirement that a majority of MLAs support regulations leaves if this Bill becomes law—a legacy of discrimination before they are laid before Parliament. I urge noble and death. Instead of ending burning injustices, if this Lords to support Amendments 16 and 16A. Bill becomes lawshe will be leaving office after the creation of one of the biggest burning injustices imaginable. Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: My Lords, that was an Earlier this evening, my noble friend the Minister extremely impressive speech and I pay tribute to the read out part of a letter to the Prime Minister concerning noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, but it was surely a speech the amendments on same-sex marriage. I will do the about Amendment 12, not Amendment 16. same, only mine is a letter to the Prime Minister from more than 500 people with Down’s syndrome and their families. Perhaps my noble friend the Minister Baroness O’Loan: It has been said so often: has it in his briefing pack—perhaps not. This is what Amendment 16 is an amendment to Amendment 12. they say: “Theresa May, do you really want to look back at your time in Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: Amendment 16 is entitled: Parliament and see one of your final acts being to introduce a change in the law that would be discriminating against our “Requirement for majority of MLAs to support regulations”. community and likely lead to many more babies with Down’s I confess that I have huge admiration for Amendment 16, syndrome being aborted in a time of equality”. because I wish that I had thought of it when we were How do they know the likely death toll for Down’s considering the question of possible prorogation and syndrome diagnosis? They know because in England a crash-out deal with no consultation with Parliament. and Wales, 90% of human beings diagnosed before It is a wonderful thought that we could have written a 331 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 332

[LORD KERR OF KINLOCHARD] House believes people should be told to have an prescription like this into the law, which would have abortion or that there are practitioners who would do required the Prime Minister to ring me up and ask, that. We are talking about the right to choose on the “What’s your view?”, and then work out whether there basis of evidence. Indeed, we could have other stories was a majority in both Houses for and against the crash of the consequences for some women denied abortions out. and the suffering that they have gone through. I do not Actually,it does not make sense.Individually consulting think trading suffering really adds to the debate. There Members of an Assembly that is not meeting does not are fundamental differences of view. I respect that but make sense, I am afraid. It is of course open to the let us recognise that we will use the arguments to Secretary of State to consult whomever she wants, but support one side or the other. to prescribe that she can proceed only if a majority What is being asked here is that the Assembly consulted on the telephone or the internet agree is an should be consulted. The noble and right reverend absurdity. Lord, Lord Eames, said that we are talking about the I also remind those speaking to this amendment theory of devolution. The problem is that we are not; that the Minister made it absolutely clear that the we are talking about the practice of devolution, which consultations would be not about “whether” but is not being practised in Northern Ireland. Noble about “how”. A number of the speeches that have Lords from Northern Ireland need to reflect on the taken place on Amendment 16 are more appropriate fact that the people of Northern Ireland need an to Amendment 12 because they seem to assume that Assembly so that devolution can happen. If devolution the consultations will be about “whether” and not is not happening, they will have to suffer the debates about “how”. that they are complaining about now. That is the consequence and the reality of not having devolution. 10 pm As the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, the previous Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown: My amendment was about when and how—it was about Lords, when I spoke earlier about consulting Assembly the timing; it was not about whether it would happen. Members, I was told I should be speaking to Amendment Amendment 16 is clearly about providing a veto in 16, so I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, relation to the previous amendment. Proposed new knows that I am speaking to the relevant amendment subsection (3) in the amendment says: on this matter. “The second condition is that the relevant regulations under This legislation has been rushed through. We are section 9 may only be before Parliament if a majority of the told that everyone supports devolution and everyone members of the Northern Ireland Assembly support the regulations”. wants it but there seems to be a great fear of hearing That is a clear veto. It is possible that a majority of what the 90 Members of the Assembly think. We were Members would support the regulations,because opinions told in our debate before that the Assembly Members have shifted. I accept that. However, like the noble had changed their minds. The last time they voted, the Lord, Lord Dubs, I worry that there is something vast majority voted against abortion. The noble Lord, uncomfortable about picking Members off one by one, Lord Alderdice, told the House that things had changed possibly in a secret consultation as opposed to a plenary dramatically. In fact, he went through the parties and Assembly where votes, debates and opinions are discussed said they have changed their views. How he knows and recorded and accounted for in public. If the that, I do not know. There is a way to find out—we Assembly Members are to be consulted on these issues, could ask them, and this House would be led not by then reconvene the Assembly and they can decide. false information but by fact. Why can we not ask? Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, it has been a The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, is very interested in long debate and it has ranged rather wide of the protection of refugees. I say to him that I am very Amendment 16A. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, interested in the protection of the unborn child. I said that Amendment 16 was an amendment to think that the child that has no voice in this House is Amendment 12, but that is not correct. In fact, worthy too. We have been lectured about rights and Amendment 16 would insert a new clause. this being a matter of human rights. Is there a hierarchy of rights? Has the child no rights or fewer rights? Baroness O’Loan: My understanding, having talked Therefore, we want to legislate on a hierarchy of to the clerks, is that the new clause proposed by the rights. I suggest that this is an opportunity to find out, noble Baroness, Lady Barker, becomes Section 9, and genuinely and earnestly, what the elected representatives this amendment then seeks to amend it. of the Northern Ireland Assembly feel. They have been used in this and the previous debate—we are Baroness Smith of Basildon: Amendment 16 actually legislating because the Members of the Assembly wanted proposes inserting a new clause, but that is slightly to legislate. Now we are told that we do not know. We irrelevant. We have had a debate on Amendment 12 know that they voted against this legislation and we and are now looking at the requirement to consult are going to legislate anyhow. I suggest that that is MLAs. There is something slightly uncomfortable about double standards and does nothing to credit this House. this. I am certainly not opposed to consultation. I think that the best consultation that we could have on Lord Bruce of Bennachie: My Lords, the noble this issue would be more than consultation. I would Baroness, Lady O’Loan, in introducing this amendment want to see the Assembly up and running and making acknowledged that it is effectively an amendment to these decisions itself—a point that the noble Lord, the previous amendment that was carried. She also Lord Bruce, made. It is not just a question of taking gave some anecdotes about people who were told to consultation on one issue in isolation; what is really have an abortion. I do not believe that anybody in this important is the process of governance, where issues 333 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 334 are weighed against each other, talked through and given that one of noble Lords’ concerns has been the looked at in detail along with other information. I scope from the other place, but I will touch on a few fully—100%—support local decision-making and the elements. By any definition, we have to accept that the local responsibility that goes with it, but that is not situation in Northern Ireland is dysfunctional. The what we are talking about here. devolution structures that have been put together are In some ways, we are almost talking about imposing not working. One can argue that the structures are at a double lock on the Government. The amendment fault, or that the problem rests elsewhere, but the that they want to consult on—the new law, as it will problem we face now is that the outcome is the same be—requires the Secretary of State to bring forward no matter which you decide is responsible. The situation regulations in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive. that we face is serious, and I do not think there is a Therefore, only in the absence of an Executive would single Member in the House tonight who would not the Government be able to bring forward regulations. wish to see these matters taken forward by an Assembly However, it would seem somewhat strange to then say, and an Executive in Northern Ireland. For reasons “Wehaven’t got an Executive. The Government must take that are all too apparent, however, certain parties in the decisions, but we’ll go and consult them anyway”. Northern Ireland are not able to deliver against that That seems almost like a double lock, preventing the instruction. That is a great shame, as we probably all Government taking any action at all while the Assembly agree. We all recognise that noble Lords sitting here at is not sitting. this late hour should not be taking these matters If that principle were imposed across the board, it forward in this fashion, but we are doing so because of would be very difficult for there to be any governance a failure and a fault in the system in Northern Ireland on any issue in Northern Ireland. It would be As the people of Northern Ireland look at what we inappropriate to put the Government in that position are doing here, I have a sneaking suspicion that they when the Assembly has not sat for well over two years. are sick and tired of all politicians, of all rank and Therefore, despite what I think are good intentions measure. They are tired and weary now because they behind the amendment, I cannot give it any support. seem to be in a situation where politicians are all over them when it comes to an election, then—lo and behold Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, in many —seem to disappear when it comes to the heavy lifting. respects this has been a longer extension of the earlier They now see all politicians of all parties, of all ilk and debate. I almost wish that someone had asked me a all places, in exactly the same way. That is a terrible question at the beginning so that I could have stood up situation to be in, and we need to restore the confidence then. In fact, the MLAs will be consulted as part of and trust of the people of Northern Ireland in the the ongoing consultation envisaged with the stakeholders. elected system. We need to get the Executive up and However, the difference is that they will not get a lock working, and get this moving forward, but that is not on that, which would mean that only a majority could what we are able to do through this amendment. help us move forward. Therefore, the views of the The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, has made a MLAs will be taken and heard but they will not be a passionate speech this evening, and she has received a determining factor in arresting progress on this number of emails in response to a particular letter. I amendment. It is important to be aware of that as we am sure we all have a large number of those in our make progress. It is also important, as I said when we inboxes now, but the number of emails needs to be discussed this issue a longer time ago, that the scope judged against the population of Northern Ireland. we are discussing is the scope we have received from The population is 1.871 million, and we need to recognise the other place. The criticism of proceedings in the that the passion of those who have responded should House of Commons, and those issues, are deemed out be applauded, but it is not a means by which we can of order in the Companion. We have to accept that determine the view or the will of the people of Northern what has arrived here is something that we can act on Ireland; nor should we consider it so. It is an important and take forward, which we must do. measure, but it is not in itself an adequate measure. It is important to stress, throughout each of our The amendment before us now broadly says that discussions on this wider question, that the Government the MLAs must be consulted and their response to the are not seeking to take forward an abortion amendment. consultation will determine what happens next. We We have received from the other place a clear statement, cannot accept the amendment, but I stress that the MLAs by a clear majority, on a conscience issue and a free will be consulted, and I can go further by ensuring vote. For good or ill, in response to my noble friend that MLAs receive an update on each of the aspects Lord Shinkwin, the Prime Minister, in this instance, that noble Lords will be updated on as a consequence would be able to exercise her conscience in the same of the earlier amendments from the other place. If way as anybody else in that House. This is not the UK your Lordships are so minded, we can ensure that Government’s policy, nor is it the policy of my party, MLAs receive exactly the same information that comes but responsibility rests with this Government to ensure from the reports we have commissioned, or are about that what we are able to do in moving this matter to commission, to ensure that they are fully abreast forward is safe, sound and secure. That responsibility and aware of all of these aspects. We will do all we can rests with us, and that is what we have sought to do in to engage directly with the MLAs to ensure that they engaging with all noble Lords throughout this process—to are fully aware of each step. I have no problem with ensure that we are able to deliver on that. committing to do that now, but I cannot have a lock The discussion has ranged more widely than the placed on progress on this matter. That would place question of consulting with the MLAs. I do not wish the Government in the invidious position of having to extend the debate significantly in this direction, been, both from the other place and through our own 335 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 336

[LORD DUNCAN OF SPRINGBANK] Division No. 3 vote this evening, in a clear position, but then having CONTENTS to say that they must await the views of MLAs. We cannot have that, I am afraid; it would not be appropriate. Berridge, B. Mackay of Clashfern, L. I therefore ask that the amendment be withdrawn. Brennan, L. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Browne of Belmont, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Callanan, L. McAvoy, L. Baroness O’Loan: My Lords, I have listened with Cathcart, E. McCrea of Magherafelt and care to everyone who has spoken. I thank noble Lords Cope of Berkeley, L. Cookstown, L. who have spoken in support of my amendments. I will Cormack, L. McInnes of Kilwinning, L. address a couple of issues before I give noble Lords Crathorne, L. Meyer, B. Cumberlege, B. Morrow, L. my decision. There is a democratic deficit. The Minister Deben, L. Neville-Jones, B. is right: people are tired of politics. That is why I did Eames, L. Eaton, B. Nicholson of Winterbourne, not expect a response to the letter which the noble and B. right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and I drafted, yet Elton, L. Empey, L. O’Loan, B. [Teller] the responses continue to come in. Finlay of Llandaff, B. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Flight, L. Seccombe, B. Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, very briefly, it is easy to Fraser of Corriegarth, L. Shinkwin, L. say that people are tired of politicians; that is the usual Hollins, B. Smith of Newnham, B. trick when debating. But in the most recent election in Hooper, B. Trenchard, V. Northern Ireland, the politicians got a turnout of a Kilclooney, L. Trimble, L. [Teller] Lexden, L. True, L. higher percentage than five years earlier.

Baroness O’Loan: I thank the noble Lord; I am in NOT CONTENTS his debt. Aberdare, L. Hain, L. Addington, L. Hamilton of Epsom, L. There is a democratic deficit. Noble Lords have Adonis, L. Hamwee, B. acknowledged it throughout this debate. They have all Alderdice, L. Hannay of Chiswick, L. acknowledged their unease at the way they have found Andrews, B. Harris of Richmond, B. themselves forced to do this and they have stressed the Armstrong of Hill Top, B. [Teller] unacceptable nature of what they have been obliged to Ashton of Hyde, L. Haselhurst, L. do. Despite that, our people still want a voice. While Attlee, E. Haskel, L. Barker, B. Hayward, L. discomfort has been expressed here about what has Barran, B. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. been said, there is huge discomfort in Northern Ireland Bassam of Brighton, L. Henley, L. about the imposition of abortion by Great Britain on Bates, L. Hope of Craighead, L. a people who do not want it. The context is that we are Berkeley of Knighton, L. Horam, L. talking life and death issues. That is the difference Bloomfield of Hinton Humphreys, B. Waldrist, B. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. about abortion: it is the life and death issue of a child, Boateng, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. in respect of which, as noble Lords have said, the Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Hussein-Ece, B. Assembly had a clear view. B. Jolly, B. We face Brexit. We started with Brexit this evening Brinton, B. Jopling, L. Brookeborough, V. Kakkar, L. and we will end with Brexit. It would not be good to Bruce of Bennachie, L. Kennedy of Cradley, B. do this to a people who do not want it without at least Bryan of Partick, B. Kennedy of Southwark, L. consulting their MLAs; it would be too reminiscent of Bull, B. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. the bad old days. Of course, we are all aware of the Cavendish of Furness, L. Kirkhope of Harrogate, L. subtext: that Sinn Féin had two red lines to coming in Chakrabarti, B. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. to the talks, which have now been removed. Sinn Féin Chalker of Wallasey, B. Kramer, B. Chandos, V. Lee of Trafford, L. may come back but not, I suspect, before this Bill is Chisholm of Owlpen, B. Liddle, L. passed and implemented. Clark of Windermere, L. Lingfield, L. There are so many uncertainties around this Bill. I Clement-Jones, L. Livermore, L. think the Minister has forgotten about the Istanbul Collins of Highbury, L. Ludford, B. Courtown, E. Maddock, B. convention; I hope he will come back to me on that. Crawley, B. Massey of Darwen, B. I ask noble Lords to do as the noble and learned Deech, B. McDonagh, B. Lord, Lord Mackay, has said: to respect, in so far as Dholakia, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. we can, the devolved Administration. Our peace in Dixon-Smith, L. McNally, L. Northern Ireland was very hard won. We still have fears, Donaghy, B. McNicol of West Kilbride, L. Dubs, L. Montrose, D. troubles, bombs and shootings. I ask noble Lords to Duncan of Springbank, L. Newby, L. give a voice to the MLAs in Northern Ireland by Evans of Bowes Park, B. Noakes, B. supporting this amendment. I do not intend to withdraw Fairhead, B. Northover, B. it; I wish to test the opinion of the House. Foster of Bath, L. Oates, L. Fox, L. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Gale, B. Osamor, B. 10.17 pm Garden of Frognal, B. Paddick, L. German, L. Parminter, B. Division on Amendment 16A (to Amendment 16). Glendonbrook, L. Patel, L. Goldie, B. Pinnock, B. Contents 39; Not-Contents 138. Golding, B. Porter of Spalding, L. Greaves, L. Prosser, B. Amendment 16A (to Amendment 16) disagreed. Grender, B. Purvis of Tweed, L. 337 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 338

Quin, B. Suttie, B. the person is entitled to a payment to reflect the amount that Razzall, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. the person would have received had the scheme been in Roberts of Llandudno, L. Teverson, L. force since the making of the Stormont House Agreement. Rooker, L. Thornton, B. (7) Regulations under subsection (1) may, in particular, Rosser, L. Tonge, B. make provision about— Ryder of Wensum, L. Tope, L. Scriven, L. Tunnicliffe, L. (a) the administration of the scheme (including provision Selkirk of Douglas, L. Tyler, L. establishing a body or conferring functions on an Sharkey, L. Vere of Norbiton, B. existing body); Sheehan, B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. (b) the funding of the scheme by money from the Sherbourne of Didsbury, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Consolidated Fund of Northern Ireland (whether Shipley, L. Walmsley, B. by virtue of grant funding from a Northern Ireland Shutt of Greetland, L. Watkins of Tavistock, B. department, the appropriation of money by an Act Smith of Basildon, B. [Teller] of the Northern Ireland Assembly or otherwise); Smith of Finsbury, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. Wheatcroft, B. (c) the sharing of information between public Stoneham of Droxford, L. Wheeler, B. authorities for the purposes of the scheme; Storey, L. Wrigglesworth, L. (d) evidential matters; Stunell, L. Young of Cookham, L. (e) the procedure for the making and deciding of Sugg, B. Younger of Leckie, V. applications (including provision imposing time limits); Amendment 16 withdrawn. (f) appeals and reviews; (g) information, advice or assistance in relation to the 10.30 pm scheme or payments under it. (8) Regulations under subsection (1) may make provision Amendment 17 conferring a discretion on a person. Moved by Lord Hain (9) Regulations under subsection (1)— (a) may include provision amending, repealing or revoking 17: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— any provision made by an Act of Parliament or “Victims’ payments Northern Ireland legislation, and (1) The Secretary of State must by regulations establish a (b) in so far as made in reliance on section (Regulations: scheme under the law of Northern Ireland which provides procedure and supplementary 2)(4), may also include for one or more payments to be made to, or in respect of, provision amending or repealing provision made by a person who has sustained an injury as a result of a an Act or Measure of the National Assembly for Troubles-related incident. Wales or an Act of the Scottish Parliament. (2) The first regulations under subsection (1) must be made (10) In making the first regulations under this section the before the end of January 2020 and come into force Secretary of State must have regard to any advice given before the end of May 2020. by the Commission for Victims and Survivors for Northern (3) Regulations under subsection (1) must make provision Ireland. as to the eligibility criteria for payments under the (11) In this section— scheme which may, in particular, relate to— “injury” means any illness or injury (whether physical (a) the nature or extent of a person’s injury; or mental); (b) how, when or where the injury was sustained; “the Stormont House Agreement” means the agreement (c) residence or nationality; made between parties represented in the Northern (d) whether or not a person has been convicted of an Ireland Assembly, the Government of the United offence. Kingdom and the Government of Ireland on 23 December 2014; (4) Regulations under subsection (1) may make provision for the reimbursement of costs incurred by a person in “Troubles-related incident” means an incident involving connection with an application under the scheme (whether an act of violence or force carried out in Ireland, the or not the application is successful). United Kingdom or anywhere in Europe for a reason related to the constitutional status of Northern (5) Regulations under subsection (1) may, in particular, Ireland or to political or sectarian hostility between make provision— people there.” (a) for determining the amount of any payment; (b) for payments to be made in respect of past periods Lord Hain (Lab): My Lords, I think the Minister (including periods before this Act was passed); has demonstrated the patience of Job with the House (c) for payments to be reduced or repaid (in whole or in this evening and I commend him for that; we are part) in specified circumstances; enormously indebted to him. (d) about the treatment under other legislation (for In moving Amendment 17, I will speak to associated example social security legislation) of payments under Amendments 18 and 23 in my name and those of the the scheme. noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and the (6) Regulations under subsection (1) must make provision of noble Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord Bruce, to whom the kind mentioned in subsection (5)(b) so as to ensure I am most grateful. I thank the Minister and his that where— officials for working with us to enable these amendments (a) a person is eligible under the scheme as the result of to be accepted by the Government and to establish, for an injury sustained by that person before the scheme the very first time, a system of payments for a pension comes into force, and which severely injured victims of Northern Ireland (b) the person makes an application within a period terrorism should have had a very long time ago. specified in the regulations (which must not be less than the period of two years beginning with the day My understanding is that the crucial words, on which the scheme comes into force), “through no fault of their own”, 339 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 340

[LORD HAIN] Lord Bruce of Bennachie: My Lords, as a signatory that were in my original amendment in Committee on to this amendment, I thank and congratulate the Monday cannot appear on the face of the Bill, on the noble Lord, Lord Hain, on the work he has done on advice of parliamentary counsel, because they are not this and on taking this opportunity to bring it to a sufficiently legally precise. For the avoidance of any conclusion—and, I hope, by negotiation with the Minister doubt, I ask the Minister to confirm for the record to have a clause that will be acceptable. that the intent and purpose of, I want to back up what he has asked the Minister to “through no fault of their own”, say on the record about the “no fault of their own” remains in the Bill as amended, especially in Section 3(d), determination. A ministerial statement on it would be covering whether or not an applicant has a conviction enormously valuable and I know that the Minister for an offence. Will he also confirm that it is his understands that. I think it would unite the House. intention that the regulations and the eligibility assessment This is one amendment where everybody has recognised procedure to come will abide by the “no fault of their that we have waited far too long and that these people, own”principle, which I think was supported right across many of whom have died, and their dependants really the House? Can he also further confirm that “offence” need this. This is one situation where perhaps one means a terrorism-related or serious criminal offence, thing that nobody wanted to happen—namely, this not some unrelated minor or summary offence that legislation—has nevertheless opened a window to do could have happened, for example, long ago in youth? another which, as the noble Lord, Lord Hain, said, Those of us who have had the privilege to meet the should have been done a long time ago. remarkable men and women who, despite the most horrendous injuries imaginable, have reconstructed Lord Eames: My Lords, my name is also on this their lives,will know just how important this breakthrough amendment. I could keep the House sitting for hours is. I thank your Lordships’ House for the steadfast way to tell your Lordships of people I know who have in which the principle has been supported over the last suffered terrible injuries to mind, body and spirit. I 18 months or so. I understand that the mechanisms to simply want to back up the noble Lord, Lord Hain, deliver the pension will take some time to set up, but and hope that the Minister will give the assurances we the date for it to be operational—May 2020—has to have asked for. be the very last date. Will the Minister confirm that heaven and earth will be moved to make payments as Lord Cormack: My Lords, as the fourth name on quickly as possible? These individuals are no longer the amendment I pay my tribute not just to the noble young, and some could possibly even pass before 2020. Lord, Lord Hain, who has led this campaign with real, This modest but essential measure is long overdue, dogged determination, but to the noble and right and it is right that the Government have recognised reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and the noble Lord, that by agreeing payments to be backdated to December Lord Bruce. We have worked together with other 2014, and through the Stormont House agreement on colleagues and we all are extremely grateful to the these matters, meaning that many recipients could be Minister, who has met us on a number of occasions. due many thousands of pounds; at least they have that He has listened carefully and, far more importantly, to look forward to. I was heartened that the noble acted. Lord, Lord McCrea, spoke positively about the proposal It is crucial that in every piece of literature distributed, in the debate on Monday. I trust that his colleagues in and in every announcement made, those words, the other place will follow his lead. Indeed, if working “through no fault of their own”, devolution is to be restored before 21 October, I hope are emphasised time and again. So long as that is there will be no attempt by anyone or any party, on done, I am confident that we will maintain the unanimity whatever pretext, to try to overturn what we have done we have so far enjoyed. We have had two long and here in this Parliament. That would be unthinkable quite difficult days. There is no one who is happy when Parliament—and before that, Stormont—have about the suspension of devolution or about the hurried together, completely and shamefully, failed these people manner in which we have to deal with this legislation. for so many years. At long last, we are today bringing But there has been one bright, shining light: this some relief and justice to people who have suffered for amendment and the Minister’s response. We should all so long. be extremely grateful and thank him most warmly. In concluding, when I spoke to my amendments on Monday, I said that we are a civilised society and we Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, for the avoidance of do not turn people away from services that they need doubt, my noble friend Lord Hain’s amendment has provided; for example, by the NHS and the Victims & our full support. Survivors Service in Northern Ireland. However, this pension is not a service; it is a recognition of the Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown: My horrific harm done to men and women through no Lords, I once again listened with care to the noble fault of their own. They have endured, and continue Lord, Lord Hain, as he introduced this amendment. to endure, almost unimaginable pain and suffering On reading it, I was rather alarmed that the words, through no fault of their own. They do not ask for “through no fault of their own”, sympathy, let alone pity; they ask for our recognition which were evident in our previous debate and which for what they have gone through, and help to live he has repeated, were missing. I would certainly not independent lives with dignity. I am glad that we can accept that anyone who was injured through fault of play our part in making that a reality by agreeing this their own—in other words, terrorists—should be allowed amendment this evening. to receive a pension. That would be not only an insult 341 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 342 but an absolute shame. I know that it would certainly stand alongside any interpretation of the Bill as it passes be deeply hurtful to those across the community who from our House to the other place. I recognise the have been terrorised and injured through terrorist “blameless” comment as well: we need to recognise activity. that concept that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, put I will therefore listen carefully to what the Minister into the discussion. This is to ensure that those who says in response to this, because that was the proviso have suffered through no fault of their own, not by which meant so much to me when I listened to the their own hand, and who are survivors of a difficult noble Lord, Lord Hain, on the previous occasion. He and troubled time, are able to secure a pension now. pointed out that the pension was a recognition of the That pension will be backdated to December 2014, so great harm done to men and women through no fault I hope that for some there will be a serious lump of their own. We need to keep that right in front of us, sum. I hope that that money can do some good. so that there is no misunderstanding as regards any I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for bringing judgment that may follow or any judicial review that is this before us, for pushing it and for keeping us on done, with people saying, “What did the House mean track all the way through. I think noble Lords who by this determination?”. have been part of those discussions will agree that it is As far as the other place is concerned, I think the through his leadership that we are where we are today. noble Lord is long enough in public life to know that I would not normally do this, but it is also important my deputy leader and colleagues in another place will that I praise one of my officials, Chris Atkinson. He carefully scrutinise the Minister’s words and then, no has been instrumental in helping move this matter doubt, vote accordingly. forward: without him, we would not be where we are today, and I put on record, from all of us who have Lord Empey: My Lords, I add my congratulations been involved, how critical he was to securing success. to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, on his persistence. I On that basis, I am very happy to accept the amendment. come back to the point that a number of victims appeared in the local press in Northern Ireland today Lord Hain: In thanking the Minister, I also thank and one theme went right across. Yes, they would his official, Chris Atkinson. I also place on record welcome recognition through a pension—we often what is, I am sure, the view of the whole House that forget that a lot of these people have been unable to the WAVE Trauma Centre, which has campaigned for earn a proper living and provide for their retirement this for 10 years, deserves to be acknowledged for what becauseof theirdisabilities,physicalandmental—however, has been magnificent persistence: I think we should they would all be horrified if the people down the road pay tribute to it. who caused those injuries were to get a benefit out of this process. Amendment 17 agreed. I am not a lawyer but I understand that one of the critical things when people take the Government to 10.45 pm court over a piece of legislation is what the intention of Parliament was when the debate was being held. The Minister can clarify that, of course, because his Amendment 18 statements will be part of the evidence in any case. I Moved by Lord Hain also ask him to give some thought to the use of 18: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— terminology in the criminal injuries compensation “Regulations: procedure and supplementary 2 legislation in this part of the United Kingdom. I (1) Regulations under section (Victims’ payments) are to be believe that the word “blameless” appears in that made by statutory instrument. legislation, so it is the eligibility, together with the fact (2) A statutory instrument containing regulations under that mental health is to be taken into account, as well section (Victims’ payments) is subject to annulment in as physical injuries. That is much more difficult, because pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament. the service availability to provide that kind of backup (3) A power to make regulations under section (Victims’ and assessment is in short supply, as we heard repeatedly payments) may be used to make different provision for earlier today. We do not want people with genuinely different purposes. severe mental health problems to feel that they are (4) Regulations under section (Victims’ payments) may make second-class citizens in all this, so that has to be taken incidental, supplementary, consequential, transitional or into account. The key thing is to ensure that it is saving provision.” blameless; that people cannot then find some loophole to climb in and get money, which would be rewarding Amendment 18 agreed. them for their evil deeds.

Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, I am very Amendment 19 happy to speak on this and I will get right to the point. Moved by Baroness Barker I am very happy to confirm for the record that the 19: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— intent and purpose of, “Regulations: procedure and supplementary 3 “through no fault of their own”, (1) Regulations under section 9 are to be made by statutory is the principal criterion by which we will ensure that instrument. victims secure their pension. We will also ensure that (2) A statutory instrument containing regulations under all eligibility criteria procedures abide by the “no fault section 9 is subject to annulment in pursuance of a of their own” principle. I hope that these words will resolution of either House of Parliament. 343 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 344

(3) A power to make regulations under section 9 may be Baroness Goldie (Con): It appears that we are still used to make different provision for different purposes. on Amendment 20, which needs to be debated before (4) Regulations under section 9 may make incidental, we consider Amendment 20A. supplementary, consequential, transitional or saving provision.” Lord Empey: My Lords, I follow the contribution Amendment 19A (to Amendment 19) not moved. from the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, who has frequently Amendment 19 agreed. drawn attention to similar issues. I have no doubt that, as part of the United Kingdom, if it is a decision of the country to try to help people, it is reasonable that Amendment 20 that is spread out as evenly as possible. However, I Moved by Lord Dubs would draw the attention of the House to the fact that 20: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— the structures of local government, in particular, in “Reception of unaccompanied refugee children in Northern Northern Ireland are radically different. Local authorities Ireland: regulations have no locus in this at all. There are health and social (1) The Secretary of State must by regulations under section services boards, a housing executive and housing 67 of the Immigration Act 2016 provide for the reception associations, but their funding would have to come of unaccompanied refugee children in Northern Ireland from Stormont. That is the conundrum we are confronted in accordance with that section. with. It is not that there is any lack of hospitality or (2) Regulations under this section must be in force no later willingness to play a part in a UK-wide problem. The than 21 October 2019, subject to subsection (3). structures are radically different, and all the social (3) If a Northern Ireland Executive is formed before the services and housing issues are funded through Stormont regulations under this section come into force,any regulations and not through local government. Members have to made under this section and any extant obligations arising under subsection (1) shall cease to have effect.” be aware that that is why there is an issue here. On housing, as I said earlier with regard to welfare Lord Dubs: My Lords, I shall be extremely brief mitigation, part of the problem is that we do not have given the hour. I think most Members of the House the appropriate housing units in many cases, so we rely will be aware that the Government, under Section 67 heavily on voluntary organisations, Church organisations of the Immigration Act 2016, have a commitment to and others. However, there has to be funding stream take unaccompanied child refugees from Europe. The for them to deliver their services and offer help. Members Government say that there is a limit to how many we must understand that that is why we have a difficulty. can take, because English local authorities do not It is not as if we can go to Sheffield or Coventry City have enough foster places. That is in dispute. What is Councils, which can provide services; I hope that not in dispute is that people in Northern Ireland are Members understand that. We have Syrians and other willing to make arrangements to take unaccompanied such people coming to our shores from distressing child refugees. I have talked to people in Belfast and situations. People are happy to rally round them, but Derry and they say yes. getting funding flowing has to happen via Stormont. The problem is that, until now, because there is no That is the obstacle in our way. Perhaps the Minister functioning Executive, it is not possible for anything can address that in his response. to happen, because the civil servants who make the decisions have not felt it possible to agree to take Viscount Younger of Leckie: My Lords, the noble unaccompanied child refugees. I think most people in Lord, Lord Dubs, has been a consistent champion for Northern Ireland, with their traditional hospitality, child refugees in promoting their interests. I am very would be sympathetic. It would be good for British grateful to him for his continued commitment to such policy. The Home Office would welcome it and, above an important issue, which I know he has discussed all, it would be great for some of the child refugees with my noble friend Lord Duncan as recently as May. trapped in terrible conditions on the Greek islands, in He deserves a reply. It will have to be fairly brief, northern France and elsewhere. which I am sure the House will be relieved to hear, but I hope the Government will accept the amendment or I hope that it is not too brief. at least the principle, so that something can be done to help these children and that Northern Ireland will step As the noble Lord will know, the UK has contributed up to the mark in the way that other parts of the significantly to hosting, supporting and protecting the United Kingdom have already done. I beg to move. most vulnerable children, including those affected by the migration crisis in Europe. Since the beginning of Lord Morrow: My Lords, I will speak to 2015, the UK has received asylum applications from Amendment 20A. I want to be brief, not because this 12,756 unaccompanied children. In 2018, we received subject is not deserving of a full debate, but because I 2,872 such applications—15% of all such claims in the have listened carefully to the previous debate and feel EU. We are the third largest intake country of all the that the issues have been adequately covered. There EU member states. I must pay tribute to the vital work must be a clear distinction—I know the noble Lord, of local authorities in looking after these children and Lord Hain, has pointed this out very clearly—between providing them with the day-to-day care that is so the victim-maker and the victim. Consideration of crucial in enabling them to rebuild their lives. government proposals in the past has been coloured. I The Government remain committed to relocating said that in the debate on Monday.There is dissatisfaction the remaining children up to the specified number with people generally, but in particular with those who of 480 under Section 67 of the Immigration Act 2016. are campaigning for victims. The Home Office continues to work closely with local 345 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 346 authorities and strategic migration partnerships across (N.I. 17)) to apply only to a person who is injured or the country. We remain very keen to receive offers of affected wholly by the actions of another person. further placements. (2) Regulations under this section must be in force no later As with other amendments, this amendment cuts than 21 October 2019, subject to subsections (3) and (4). across devolved matters. The relocation of children is (3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under also dependent on the availability of appropriate local subsection (1)— authority care placements. I took note of the speech (a) must be laid before both Houses of Parliament; and comments of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on (b) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a housing. In Northern Ireland the delivery of most of resolution of either House of Parliament. the required services, such as health, social care and (4) If a Northern Ireland Executive is formed before the education, is devolved. regulations under this section come into force,any regulations made under this section and any extant obligations arising The intention behind the proposed new clause is to under subsection (1) shall cease to have effect.” provide for the allocation to Northern Ireland of children brought to the UK under Section 67. Of course, it Lord Morrow: My Lords, in speaking to the is right that the ability to do so should exist; however, amendment standing in my name, I am very conscious such a clause is not required. The regulations that it of what has been said on the amendment of the noble requires would duplicate existing ones in the Children Lord, Lord Hain, but the definition of a victim in (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 and the Transfer of Northern Ireland has been a vexation for some 13 Responsibility for Relevant Children (Extension to years now. Consideration of government proposals in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland) Regulations 2018; the past was coloured by people’s dissatisfaction people they are therefore unnecessary.Whether Northern Ireland over an unfair definition of a victim. health and social care trusts accept children under I shall not repeat in detail what I said in Monday’s Section 67 of the 2016 Act is very much a matter for debate, but I urge the Minister to give due diligence to Northern Ireland. this issue. I know that, when responding to the noble In conclusion, this is an important issue and, given Lord, Lord Hain, he made it clear that this matter that we are talking about children here, it is important would be actioned, and the noble Lord, Lord Hain, that we, working with Northern Ireland, get this right. gave considerable reassurance that his definition of a I would be happy to continue to discuss and explore victim is not a victim-maker. In our estimation and our approach to unaccompanied asylum-seeking children strong opinion, the two cannot be conflated or confused. with the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. For those reasons, I We draw a distinct difference between those who were urge him to withdraw his amendment. victim-makers and those who were victims. If this House and the other place do not deal with this, as I Lord Dubs: My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. I said when I served notice on your Lordships’ House appreciate the contribution made by the noble Lord, today, this issue will not go away. However, it is not my Lord Empey. I am aware that this would be done not intention to move my amendment in light of what was through local authorities but through the health boards said in the earlier debate and the clear assurance given in Northern Ireland; I did not want to go into too that victims and victim-makers are two different people. much detail about that so that I could be brief. The issue concerns unaccompanied child refugees; it is not Amendment 20A not moved. about housing but about finding foster parents who are willing to have children placed with them through Clause 10: Extent, commencement and short title the health boards.It is therefore a fairly simple proposition at one level. Amendment 21 I just hope that there is some way we can unblock this, because I think we are well short of the 480 that Moved by Baroness Barker the Government have capped under Section 67. There 21: Clause 10, page 6, line 32, leave out subsection (1) and are children in a terrible situation in northern France insert— and on the Greek islands. I thought that if we could “(1) Except as mentioned in subsection (1A), this Act extends just unblock this a bit and give the Northern Ireland to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. people a chance to say, “We have some foster parents (1A) Sections 9 and (Regulations: procedure and supplementary here who are willing to take a couple of child refugees,” 3) extend to Northern Ireland only.” we could move forward. That is all I am asking. Amendment 21 agreed. On the Minister’s assurance that we are going to take this further by discussion, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 22 Amendment 20 withdrawn. Moved by Lord Hayward 22: Clause 10, page 6, line 33, leave out subsection (2) and Amendment 20A insert— Tabled by Lord Morrow “(2) Except as mentioned in subsection (2A), this Act comes into force on the day on which it is passed. 20A: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— (2A) Sections 8 and (Regulations: procedure and “Definition of Victim supplementary 1) come into force on 22 October 2019, (1) The Secretary of State must make regulations to change the unless an Executive in Northern Ireland is formed on or definition of “victim” in Article 3 of the Victims and before 21 October 2019 (in which case they do not come Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 (S.I. 2006/2953 into force at all). 347 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Electricity Capacity (No, 2) Regs. 2019 348

(2B) For the purposes of this section an Executive is formed will help maintain a strong security-of-supply position once the offices of the First Minister, deputy First Minister into the future. The capacity market secures the capacity and the Northern Ireland Ministers are all filled.” required in Great Britain during periods of peak demand Amendment 22 agreed. throughcompetitive,technology-neutralauctionsnormally held four years and one year ahead of delivery. These are known as T-4 and T-1 auctions. Those who win Amendment 23 capacityagreements—knownascapacityproviders—commit Moved by Lord Hain to providing capacity during periods of system stress 23: Clause 10, page 6, line 33, leave out subsection (2) and in exchange for receiving capacity payments. insert— I will briefly provide some context before expanding “(2) Except as mentioned in subsection (2A), this Act comes on the provisions of this draft instrument. On into force on the day on which it is passed. 15 November 2018, the General Court of the Court of (2A) Sections (Victims’payments) and (Regulations: procedure Justice of the European Union annulled the European and supplementary 2) come into force on 22 October 2019, unless an Executive in Northern Ireland is formed Commission’s state aid approval for GB’s capacity on or before 21 October 2019 (in which case they do not market, introducing a “standstill period” until the come into force at all). scheme can be reapproved. The judgment means that (2B) For the purposes of this section an Executive is formed the UK Government are not able to award capacity once the offices of the First Minister, deputy First Minister agreements or make capacity payments unless and and the Northern Ireland Ministers are all filled.” until state aid approval is obtained. The Commission is currently conducting a state aid investigation for the Amendment 23 agreed. capacity market, and we are working with it to ensure it can reapprove the scheme as quickly as possible. Amendment 24 Wehave taken steps,through an earlier instrument—the Moved by Baroness Barker Electricity Capacity (No. 1) Regulations 2019—and 24: Clause 10, page 6, line 33, leave out subsection (2) and associated changes to the capacity market rules, insert— to maintain the operation of the capacity market, to “(2) Except as mentioned in subsection (2A), this Act comes the extent possible, while state aid approval is obtained. into force on the day on which it is passed. The steps we have taken to put in place these interim (2A) Sections 9 and (Regulations: procedure and supplementary arrangements are currently subject to judicial review 3) come into force on 22 October 2019, unless an Executive proceedings, which we are robustly defending. The in Northern Ireland is formed on or before 21 October House of Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny 2019 (in which case they do not come into force at all). Committee has highlighted the continuing uncertainty (2B) For the purposes of this section an Executive is formed for the capacity market resulting from these judicial once the offices of the First Minister, deputy First Minister review proceedings and from the Commission’s state and the Northern Ireland Ministers are all filled.” aid investigation. Amendment 24 agreed. This second instrument put before the House today focuses on future auctions, which will not proceed unless Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con): My Lords, before and until the capacity market has state aid approval. we move on to the statutory instrument, which is our This means the instrument is unlikely to be impacted next business, I should say a few words about the by the judicial review.First, the instrument makes changes Third Reading of the Bill. The Public Bill Office will to enable the T-4 auction for the 2022-23 delivery year, now need some time to reprint the Bill following the which was postponed following the state aid judgment, changes that the House has agreed this evening. Once to be replaced by a one-off T-3 auction. It will only be the Bill has been reprinted, noble Lords will have held if state aid approval has been received and would 30 minutes to table any amendments. If I can provide be held in early 2020. Secondly, this instrument makes a further update on timings after the statutory instrument changes to remove or reduce what might otherwise be has been dealt with, I will do so. We will now move on unnecessary burdens on business in relation to credit cover. to consider the statutory instrument. Applicants seeking to enter certain types of capacity market unit—for example, those that are unproven or Electricity Capacity (No. 2) not yet constructed—into a capacity auction are required Regulations 2019 to provide and maintain credit cover. The instrument Motion to Approve adjusts the credit cover requirements for a CMU entered into both the upcoming T-3 and T-4 auctions, 11 pm to enable the credit cover obligations for both auctions Moved by Lord Henley to be satisfied jointly rather than separately. That the draft Regulations laid before the House It also extends the existing suspension of credit on 5 June be approved. cover obligations, provided for by the Electricity Capacity Relevant document: 53rd Report from the Secondary (No. 1) Regulations 2019, to the three upcoming capacity Legislation Scrutiny Committee auctions likely to take place in 2020. It makes changes to ensure that when the suspension of credit cover is TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department lifted, following state aid reapproval, existing exceptions for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) to credit cover requirements still operate as intended. (Con): My Lords, the capacity market is a key element Finally, the instrument makes changes to support of the Government’sstrategy for maintaining the security the participation of certain unsubsidised renewable of electricity supplies in Great Britain. This instrument technologies in future auctions. 349 Electricity Capacity (No, 2) Regs. 2019[17 JULY 2019] Electricity Capacity (No, 2) Regs. 2019 350

The capacity market was always intended to include and if he has, does he think that the plain and ordinary all unsubsidised technologies. Some types of renewable meaning of them could in any way be construed as a technology, such as biomass, have always been able to simple technical reprise as opposed to an outright participate provided they are not receiving other specified rejection? How certain is he that the judgment of the low-carbon subsidies.However,when the capacity market European Court was not, as the Minister in the House was conceived, wind and solar required subsidy, so of Commons alleged it to be, were not included in its technical rules. With unsubsidised “a challenge to the nature of the UK capacity market mechanism renewables now a prospect, the capacity market rules itself”?—[Official Report, Commons, 19/11/18; col. 1090WS.] have recently been amended to allow wind and solar to It seems that it is not very easy to make that stand up, participate. and as regards our taking a decision today, it needs at This instrument supports this change by requiring least a little amplification and clarification. state support for new-build renewable CMUs, which The allegation put to the European Court was that has been declared under the rules to be deducted or our UK system was discriminating against those who had repaid from capacity payments. This enables renewable a commercial appetite to reduce electricity consumption technologies in receipt of subsidies—other than those as opposed to having proposals to provide generation. which exclude them from the scheme entirely—to I hope the Minister will say that is not true and participate without cumulation of state aid received contradict the advice I have been given that, the way through the capacity market and other schemes.Alongside the system is designed at the moment, those who want these regulations, we have also laid complementary to reduce consumption—the capacity supply industry— amendments to the capacity market rules, which govern have to make sure they have a payback period in the technical and administrative procedures relating to 12 months, whereas those on the demand side are capacity market operation. given 15 years.That inequality is leading to discrimination, These regulations are necessary to ensure the smooth which means that DSR is extremely difficult to bring running of the capacity market in the period after within the scope of the support that these regulations state aid approval is received, and to broaden the are intended to provide. participation of renewable technologies. I commend I hope the Minister will be able to give us some the draft regulations to the House. reassurances about the amount he has read and the legal interpretation of it he has, as well as something Lord Stunell (LD): My Lords, I will ask the Minister about demand-side response and getting that playing some questions, and I express some surprise that, in field level for all those who want to contribute to his presentation to the House, he did not mention carbon reduction in the UK via the electricity market. demand-side response, which was the subject of an intervention I made on a previous occasion, and the reason Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords, I know the Minister why the state aid ruling was made by the European always likes to hear optimism and congratulations on court. As it is absolutely at the centre of the reason energy policy from these Benches. I will start with why this matter has not been settled and the UK that, in that I am pleased that renewables—I understand Government’s proposals were rejected, the Minister the caveat about unsubsidised renewables—will be owes the House a little more detail about that, particularly able to bid for the capacity market in future. The irony, because, as I understand it—he made the point himself— somewhat, is that the form of renewables that costs all the paperwork in front of us today is conditional the least and is most likely to be unsubsidised—onshore on implementation on receiving state aid approval wind—has been banned by the Government. I think from the EU. At the moment, that is still outstanding. others will speak about that area later in this debate. That arose from an action taken at the European The capacity market came into operation in about Court back in 2015 by a small company called Tempus 2014, which to us in this House probably sounds like Energy,which claimed that the system was discriminatory yesterday,but in the development of the energy market— against those who sought to reduce electricity consumption decarbonisation and the way in which variability,storage as opposed to increase electricity generation. The outcome technology and all those other areas have moved of that was that its claim led to the UK’s scheme being forward—there has been a big change. The question we sent back for a rethink. should come back to—as well as many of my noble friend The way it is supposed to work is that firms bid into Lord Stunell’s excellently made points—is: where do the auction at the price they need, either to keep we need to go with the capacity market at this stage? existing plants open to generate electricity or to create In this statutory instrument we have more of the new capacity from scratch. It does not deal adequately same, to catch up with what we have not been able to with the situation of companies which have come do because of the European Court of Justice decision. forward with a commercial proposition that they will I suggest that the capacity market, which was essential reduce overall electricity consumption. That is surprising back when the Energy Act put it into place, is more because, in fact, overall electricity consumption is questionable at the moment. I ask the Minister: what falling, not rising. The Government itself recently has the cost of the capacity market been to date? In took account of that, having for a long time somewhat recent years, what percentage of annual electricity denied the relevance of it to the whole question. consumption has the capacity market contributed? I Having said all that, it is surprising that the Minister am trying to get an idea of the scale of this instrument’s has not referred to the ECJ judgment, in particular use and how important it has been. One thing is quite to paragraphs 203 to 207 of it, and paragraphs 27(e) obvious: I understand that there has been an auction and 69 of the official guidance put in support of that during this period of standstill. Given that there is no judgment. Has the Minister read those paragraphs, panic about this, do we need this capacity at all? 351 Electricity Capacity (No, 2) Regs. 2019[LORDS] Electricity Capacity (No, 2) Regs. 2019 352

[LORD TEVERSON] judgment was not merely a matter of process on state I repeat my noble friend’s points about demand-side aid but included factors relating to demand-side management. It has been a characteristic of energy policy management in the capacity auctions. It is not a that we have always prioritised supply and capital foregone conclusion that business will continue as investment, following demand, rather than trying to usual. The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, reminded the reduce demand and looking at the demand side rather House of that tonight. than the supply side of the equation. Will we be in a In response to questions regarding the department’s position where demand-side response—the aggregators plan B on an adverse judgment, the Government’s and that side of the industry, so important to our future reply will be that they will make necessary adjustments. —is able to compete not just in the one-year bids but But what is the department’s timing on publishing its in the three- and four-year bids? Will that now be the five-year review of the capacity market under the case? Where are we on storage? I believe that it is still Energy Act 2013? Will that be before any judgment, not included as a sector that can bid for the capacity such that the review may need to be withdrawn market. I hope that I am wrong on that, but I would be subsequently? Is the review now ready, after the Minister interested to hear that from the Minister. in the other place stated that the Government’s intention So my real question is: how does the Minister see was to publish this summer? As the capacity market is the capacity market moving in the future? I would love still in the same position as last April, and the UK has to see in the new energy White Paper—I hope the Minister an 11% margin in supply, I repeat: what is the rush? will tell us this evening when it will be published—onshore In saying that, I repeat that I appreciate that the wind coming back on to the system. continuity and consistency of the capacity market is In terms of this particular statutory instrument, important to industry, and Labour would not wish to yes, it does the business, but we need a far more undermine either the security of electricity supplies or strategic approach to this part of the market than we industry confidence in the capacity market as an investable have at the moment. mechanism to drive through change, bring about cost savings and value for money. 11.15 pm However, in one respect, the T-3 auction proposed Lord Grantchester (Lab): I thank the Minister for his under this order would help clarify the trend in clearance explanation of the regulations before the House this prices. In February 2017, the T-4 auction cleared at evening. As he stated, they follow up on the Government’s £22.50 per kilowatt. In February 2018, the T-4 auction Electricity Capacity (No. 1) Regulations 2019 passed cleared at £8.40 per kilowatt, and the latest auction in in April. That brought forward modifications to the December 2018—admittedly the T-1 auction following capacity market that would operate during the standstill the court hearings—cleared at a mere 0.4p per kilowatt. period following the legal challenges to the state aid Ministers have repeatedly stated that having an provisions. These were made on the assumption that 11% margin on supply was an indication that the capacity the Commission’s and the Government’s positions market was working well. What does the Minister were indeed correct and lawful. expect the results to be for these forthcoming auctions? These regulations continue on that assumption Does the latest price indicate that the capacity market and reintroduce T-3 auctions to take the place of the is not needed, that there is ample capacity and that consequentially delayed T-4 auctions, which will now payments will be virtually nil for standing by to supply take place in 2020, after which the outcomes and into the market? I echo the remarks of the noble Lord, judgments will be known. In response to questions Lord Teverson, about storage, and other aspects. from your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s 53rd report, the Minister’s department Labour does not oppose this order. It is important replied that the Commission’s investigation is expected that the current chaos in the capacity market is resolved to conclude before this winter and that delay into 2020 as much and as soon as possible. The regulations, is very improbable, and that on the judicial review, the although provisional, will stabilise the market, and UK court hearing is most likely to take place in judicial resolutions to the situation should be forthcoming October. These auctions will not be taking place under shortly. Nevertheless, some serious probing is needed any scenario other than a status quo achievement for with regard to the future direction of policy in the the Government. capacity market. Bearing in mind that the UK’s state aid rules under Questions around the future of the capacity market the authority of the CMA will not diverge from the are highlighted by the inclusion of subsidy-free renewable EU state aid rules in either a deal or a no-deal scenario, technologies to bid into the capacity market through the Minister is suddenly in a strong position to declare this order. The capacity market was introduced to that nothing has changed. But of course, nothing can enable the energy market to transform from one based be taken with any great certainty. That was the position on fossil fuels to one based on new low-carbon in the debate on the earlier regulations.The circumstances technologies, while maintaining security of supply. of the T-3 auction do not differ from that position at The Minister may say that it was always anticipated all. It is a provisional auction in the sense that whatever that the capacity market framework would allow the is collected or potentially disbursed will be held until participation of renewable technologies at some point, the EU study of its processes for defying adherence to so he is now confirming that this is that point. Despite state aid is published. any margin of supply, does the Minister expect that The concerns that were voiced around the House the capacity market will be a permanent feature? Can on April’s regulations are still valid as there has been he clarify the difference under paragraph 7.14 of the no further consideration of the fact that the court Explanatory Memorandum whereby some renewables 353 Electricity Capacity (No, 2) Regs. 2019[17 JULY 2019] Electricity Capacity (No, 2) Regs. 2019 354 are excluded should they receive support from contracts Lord, Lord Teverson, who asked for detailed figures for difference, the renewables obligation or the feed-in on the overall costs of that over the years. The noble tariffs, whereas other participants receiving other forms Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked whether we could of support can have their capacity payments adjusted speculate about future auctions in the light of the to reflect other state support payments? Paragraph 7.15 continuously lower prices achieved at repeated auctions. states that regulation 49A of the principal regulations Obviously, it would be wrong for me to speculate in for low-carbon generation support is amended to allow any way about what price might be obtained—that is this change. not what one does in advance of an auction—but it is The Minister in the other place stated on this point encouraging that the price has come down. We still that onshore wind, offshore wind and solar technologies believe that that process is necessary and the right way will now be able to participate, and the noble Lord the to deal with these matters. Minister has repeated that. Now that the Government The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, also asked believe that the capacity market is the right mechanism about the five-year review. I can tell him that it will be for achieving security of supply at the lowest cost to published soon. I cannot give him a precise date at this consumers, can he now give a further update on the stage but I will say “soon”, “shortly” or something of position of onshore wind? As it is the cheapest source that sort. However, it is certainly on its way and I very of low-carbon energy, is it now a hollow achievement much hope that we can look at it in more detail in due for it to be allowed to bid into the capacity market course. when it is banned from obtaining planning permission? I turn now to the points raised by the noble Lord, Can the Minister now publicly endorse that onshore Lord Stunell, particularly about the judgment of the wind will be allowed to bid into the CfD framework European court and the decisions by the Commission. on an equal basis? He said that the judgment was more than just procedural. In the report Quantifying Benefits of Onshore Wind The court identified elements of the capacity market to the UK, published yesterday by Vivid Economics—a which should have given the Commission doubts about group that does scenario modelling for the Treasury—it whether the scheme was compatible with state aid was stated that UK customers could achieve a £50 annual requirements. That meant that the Commission should saving to their bills through onshore wind being made have conducted an in-depth investigation before deciding available. Will the Minister give his assessment of this whether to approve the scheme. Importantly, however, report and indicate when onshore wind may participate the court did not rule that the design of the capacity in the UK’s energy market? market was incompatible with state aid requirements Finally, under paragraph 7.18 of the Explanatory or direct that changes be made to the mechanism. We Memorandum, it states that other technical issues have carefully considered the matter. When I say “we”, have been addressed in this order. They do not seem to I mean department officials and my right honourable be material, but nevertheless I would be grateful if the friend the Minister for Energy. I cannot confess that I Minister could write to me with an indication of which have read the detailed paragraphs that the noble Lord have now been improved. With the misgivings stated, I referred me to, but we have carefully considered each can approve the order before the House tonight. of the issues raised in the court judgments, and we remain confident that the design of the capacity market is compatible with the state aid requirements, including Lord Henley: My Lords, I am grateful to all three in the way the system is designed in respect of demand-side noble Lords for their interventions and I will try to response. deal with as many of the questions as possible. I believe I have a certain amount of time in which to respond. I 11.30 pm am not quite clear when the usual channels want to return Whywill the Government not offer long-term contracts to other matters but I imagine that, whenever it is, it for DSR in the capacity market? Longer-term agreements, should be seen as a limit rather than a target. Therefore, where not needed, risk needlessly locking consumers I will try to keep my responses as brief as possible, and into paying a long-term price. While there can be there are possibly one or two that I hope noble Lords challenges to encouraging businesses to engage in will accept in writing. I am thinking particularly of the DSR, the same capital costs do not apply, and there is last point on the Explanatory Memorandum made by no clear evidence to suggest that longer-term agreements the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. are necessary to ensure that DSR can compete effectively. I think we are all, to some extent, singing from the The noble Lord also asked how the capacity market same song sheet in that we all have the same clear aim supported DSR. The purpose of the market is to of wanting to head in the direction of getting to zero ensure security of supply by giving capacity providers carbon by 2050, as we made clear in our recent the right incentives to be on the system to deliver announcement. It might be that others feel that it can energy where needed. It is, as I have made clear, be done quicker or in different ways, but we are all including with the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, a trying to do the same thing and to see that we achieve number of times, technologically neutral. increasing amounts of electricity generation by low-carbon means. As noble Lords will be aware, we have achieved Lord Teverson: I understand entirely the argument a great deal—consumption is down to something of that a number of years are required for physical capacity the order of 5% coming from carbon. to build what was originally the coalition Government’s We also believe that the capacity market is the right hope that gas would come online. But what I do not mechanism for delivering security of supply at the understand is this: by having that exclusively for supply lowest cost to consumers. I will write to the noble side, a whole area of the capacity market is denied by 355 Electricity Capacity (No, 2) Regs. 2019[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 356

[LORD TEVERSON] of support do not exclude renewable CMUs from the demand response. By the time you come around to the capacity market. Instead, the rules require new-build short-term one-year deals, where demand response wind and solar generation to declare this support, so can come in, you have already filled a major proportion that it can be deducted from capacity payments. What of the capacity market. It therefore discriminates against a capacity provider is authorised to receive under state that sector—or do I completely misunderstand this? aid, in addition to its capacity payments, does not need to be declared or deducted. Lord Henley: I might have to write in greater detail, I turn to a matter rather beyond this debate: our but both T-1 and T-4—the short term and longer general policy on onshore wind. I can tell both noble term—deal with the point about discrimination. I Lords who raised the subject that I know of no plans might be wrong, but I will think about that and come to change that policy. We have seen great improvements back to the noble Lord. in offshore wind, which has the great benefit over onshore wind of being in windier, flatter places where it is possible to build even bigger windmills than are Lord Stunell: I am sure that the Minister is aware possible on land, as I think even the noble Lord would that for the cost of a gigawatt of generation capacity, agree. I therefore cannot offer him any hope that our you could have a great deal more demand reduction policy is about to change on that. capacity, but only if the right trading environment is Lastly, the noble Lord asked about the energy Green in place. If I can offer support to my noble colleague Paper, which we still hope to publish before we break on the Front Bench, it does mean that by the time you for the summer. He will have to be patient for only have built the generating capacity, the case for the another four or five days. demand-side reduction shrinks. The noble Lord’s argument that six months was therefore justified in the I have dealt with most of the points raised and one case, and 15 years was necessary in the other, is offered to write on others. I beg to move. precisely the point that the European Court of Justice felt was evidence that the European Commission had Motion agreed. not looked thoroughly enough at the UK Government’s scheme. I would have expected him to be saying that 11.38 pm this aspect had been reviewed in bringing forward Sitting suspended. alternative regulations to the House.

Lord Henley: Again, it might be better if I write to NorthernIreland(ExecutiveFormation)Bill the noble Lord on that point. He is aware that the Third Reading Commission—which we support on this—is not happy with that judgment. It needs to be looked at and, as I 1.25 am made clear earlier, we are working with the Commission to ensure that it has everything it needs to continue considering that wider state aid approval for the regime Clause 8: Same sex marriage and opposite sex civil as quickly as possible. I will write to both noble Lords partnership on that point. I made it clear to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that I will also write with a more detailed Amendment 1 letter on the cost of capacity auctions and the amount Moved by Lord Duncan of Springbank of capacity that has been used in the past. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, also asked about 1: Clause 8, page 7, line 34, leave out “section 11(4)” and insert “section (Regulations: supplementary)(2)” storage. Both he and I have stressed on other occasions that we see storage playing a great role in the world of energy in the future. I can give an assurance that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern storage is able to compete in the capacity auctions and Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of has been able to since the outset. I have dealt with the Springbank) (Con): My Lords, these amendments question from the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, rationalise the clauses to make procedural provision in about when we will publish the five-year review; as I respect of each of the new regulation-making powers said, we hope to do so shortly. That will not be the end in the Bill, so they can be dealt with together. They of the process, which will identify areas of the capacity rationalise the commencement provisions for each market’s design where further amendments may be power and, importantly, they will not come into force necessary. if an Executive is formed on or before 21 October. We are also seeking to amend the Long and Short Titles The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, also asked of the Bill to reflect its purpose. It is now—goodness about support under some schemes preventing renewables me—nearly 1.30 am and I would like to thank the staff participating in the capacity market altogether, where who have helped us by staying late. other schemes simply deduct from the capacity market payments. It remains appropriate to exclude CMUs which benefit from contracts for difference, the renewables Noble Lords: Hear, hear! obligation and feed-in tariff payments, as those are the most likely and significant alternative support for Lord Duncan of Springbank: They are appreciated. CMUs participating in the capacity market. That prevents We would not be in the same fit state without them. I the accumulation of state aid. Less significant forms beg to move. 357 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 358

Baroness Barker (LD): My Lords,good morning—that at all times of the day and into the night for discussion will confuse “Yesterday in Parliament”. I rise to speak to and consultation. He has really tried to resolve these Amendment 2, which is mercifully in the same group complex issues. as the Minister’s amendments. It is a small technical amendment to the amendment in my name that was Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD): My Lords, very passed on Report. briefly, given the hour, I thank all those who have taken part, especially those who have worked so hard Its effect is to change the deadline for the regulation- on these critical amendments. It was indeed a mutual making powers and consultation from 13 January 2020 process, with the Minister, of getting us to the point to 31 March 2020. Noble Lords who were here will where we now have a Bill that looks much more fit for have heard the Minister give a very extensive exposition purpose than when it came to us, which is precisely of the way in which his department will pursue the what we are here to do. We must thank the staff for regulation-making powers under Clause 9 and the facilitating; we apologise for keeping them all up. We very tight timetable it has to work on amendments have done a job of work and people can say that the which are somewhat more complicated than those issues have been thoroughly and properly debated. I pertaining to same-sex marriage. All this is intended to also reinforce my thanks and appreciation to the Minister do is to give his department sufficient flexibility and for what he has done and the way he does it, which is the small amount of time it may need if matters fall much appreciated. slightly behind. It is absolutely not intended to be a reason to in any way frustrate or delay for a long time Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, despite the matters on which we have deliberated in some the danger of sounding repetitive, I thank the Minister detail and with great seriousness. I hope when others and the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady watching our proceedings come to see this amendment, Finlay. they will understand the reasons why it has been This Bill is now in better shape than when it was tabled and the spirit in which it is proposed. received from the House of Commons. It has been a I will sit down very shortly, but I want to put on fraught process at times. I am not sure whether it is the record my thanks to the staff, the Opposition Front lateness or the earliness of the hour, but as well as Bench and Members of the Cross Benches, who have thanking the staff—we ask a lot of our staff to be here worked extremely hard to get us to this point. Above at this time of the morning working on these issues all, I thank the Minister, who has been outstanding on and are very grateful for the support that have given this Bill. us—without the Minister’s conciliatory attitude and his willingness to talk at all times to everybody involved, Noble Lords: Hear, hear! we would not be at this stage. We are grateful to him and thank him for the work that he has done. Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB): My Lords, I Lord Hayward (Con): Before we conclude, I will my speak to Amendment 5 in my name. It is a tidying-up comments. I thank people who were unseen throughout procedure which corrects and clarifies the statutory my efforts—there are even members of the DUP who instrument powers. To be clear, the procedures for have said, “Keep going”. That is the different voice victims’ payments and same-sex marriage remain as that one has heard. I also pay tribute to No. 10 and the the House agreed on Report, which is via the negative PM, who have also encouraged me in the process. procedure. The abortion regulations will now be made When I made my speech earlier this evening—or was it by affirmative procedure, rather than by negative this afternoon, yesterday afternoon, I am not sure—I procedure, and, to avoid any doubt, this amendment referred to people whom I knew. We should bear in states that: … mind that the changes that we have made relate so “In calculating the period of 28 days mentioned no account much to people whom we do not know. We will never is to be taken of any time during which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued or … adjourned for more than four days”, know that we have helped a lot of people. so that should we be adjourned part-way through a One of the miracles of modern technology is such consultation period, the clock would stop ticking, and that, since I referred to Rainey Endowed School this start again when we officially resume. afternoon, I have had a message from another of its former members who happened to be watching us—there The other important thing is to explain the last part is a salutary warning to us all—and he has written to of this amendment, which states that if regulations cease say thank you. He has announced to a number of to have effect as a result of proposed new subsection (4), people—I shall never know them and we all never that does not affect anything previously done under will—these two sentences, which I hope summarise them, or the making of new regulations. I shall give an what we have achieved here in the last few days: “You, example of that to clarify it. If in relation to the perhaps like me, know far too many people who killed abortion issue that we discussed, a statutory instrument themselves back in the 1970s and 1980s, rather than is introduced, and after that date a GP prescribes bringing shame on their families”. He then goes to say, misoprostol for an abortion, they would be protected “I was fortunate. I had another guy who lived in the doing so during the consultation period. However, if same village and we kept each other sane”. Those are at the end of the 28 days that statutory instrument very appropriate thoughts for what we have achieved falls, they would not be covered in prescribing on here in the last few days. day 29, and it would not be retrospective either. It is important to be clear, because this has been Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, I will not such a charged debate. I too thank everyone, particularly detain us for long. I think it is important to thank certain the Minister, for having been extraordinarily available noble Lords, many of whom are in the Chamber tonight, 359 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 360

[LORD DUNCAN OF SPRINGBANK] (2) A statutory instrument containing regulations under but particular commendation should go to the noble section 8 or 10 is subject to annulment in pursuance of a Baroness, Lady Barker, for the work she has done in resolution of either House of Parliament. helping us move towards consensus. On an issue such (3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under as this, consensus is far better than division. It has section 9 must be laid before Parliament after being been a pleasure and a privilege to work with the Front made. Benches on the Labour and Liberal sides—the noble (4) Regulations contained in an instrument laid under subsection (3) cease to have effect at the end of the period of 28 days Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord beginning with the day on which the instrument is made Bruce—and my own side and others to try to deliver unless, during that period, the instrument is approved by what has been a difficult Bill, in remarkably difficult a resolution of each House of Parliament. circumstances, over a remarkably short timescale, even (5) In calculating the period of 28 days mentioned in though we have allowed for it to be extended; I think subsection (4), no account is to be taken of any time that is important. This would still be far better done by during which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued or a reformed and resolved Executive in Northern Ireland, during which both Houses are adjourned for more than but that was not to be on this occasion. The sun will four days. shortly rise and it will be a brave new world upon (6) If regulations cease to have effect as a result of which it shines. subsection (4), that does not affect— (a) anything previously done under them, or (b) the making of new regulations.” Amendment 1 agreed. Amendment 5 agreed.

Clause 11: Regulations: procedure and Clause 9: International obligations in respect supplementary 1 of CEDAW Amendment 6 Amendment 2 Moved by Lord Duncan of Springbank Moved by Baroness Barker 6: Clause 11, leave out Clause 11 2: Clause 9, page 8, line 15, leave out “13 January 2020” and insert “31 March 2020” Amendment 6 agreed. Clause 12: Regulations: procedure and Amendment 2 agreed. supplementary 2

Amendment 7 Moved by Lord Duncan of Springbank Clause 10: Victims’ payments 7: Clause 12, leave out Clause 12 Amendment 3 Amendment 7 agreed. Moved by Lord Duncan of Springbank Clause 13: Regulations: procedure and 3: Clause 10, page 9, line 39, leave out “section 12(4)” and insert “section (Regulations: supplementary)(2)” supplementary 3

Amendment 8 Amendment 3 agreed. Moved by Lord Duncan of Springbank 8: Clause 13, leave out Clause 13 Amendment 4 Moved by Lord Duncan of Springbank Amendment 8 agreed. 4: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— Clause 14: Extent, commencement and short title “Regulations: supplementary (1) A power to make regulations under section 8, 9 or 10 may be used to make different provision for different purposes. Amendments 9 to 11 (2) Regulations under section 8, 9 or 10 may make incidental, Moved by Lord Duncan of Springbank supplementary, consequential, transitional or saving 9: Clause 14, page 10, line 36, leave out subsection (2) and provision.” insert— “(2) Section 9 extends to Northern Ireland only.” 10: Clause 14, page 11, line 3, leave out subsections (4) to (8) Amendment 4 agreed. and insert— “(4) Sections 8, 9, 10, (Regulations: supplementary) and Amendment 5 (Regulations: procedure) come into force on 22 October 2019, Moved by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff unless an Executive in Northern Ireland is formed on or before 21 October 2019 (in which case they do not come 5: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— into force at all).” “Regulations: procedure 11: Clause 14, page 11, line 19, after “Formation” insert “etc.” (1) Regulations under section 8, 9 or 10 are to be made by statutory instrument. Amendments 9 to 11 agreed. 361 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[17 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 362

In the Title Amendment 12 agreed.

Amendment 12 1.37 am Moved by Lord Duncan of Springbank 12: In the Title, line 4, at end insert “and other matters; to Bill passed and returned to the Commons with amendments. impose duties to make regulations changing the law of Northern Ireland on certain matters, subject to the formation of an Executive; and for connected purposes.” House adjourned at 1.38 am.

GC 25 Arrangement of Business [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 26

Grand Committee companies, excellent universities, outstanding public servants, dedicated carers and social cohesion—a nation Wednesday 17 July 2019 prosperous and at peace with itself. Of that city, much is heard, of which we are legitimately proud. 3.45 pm But there is another city—a city of the postcode lottery, the forgotten fringe, the lurking shadow. There Arrangement of Business is that place on the other side of the road, so easy to Announcement pass by: the failed school; the excluded child; and the The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham gangland, where the moralities to which most of us and Vaux) (Con): Good afternoon, my Lords, welcome subscribe and the philosophy in which we believe are to Grand Committee. There will be Divisions in the objects of contempt, more appropriate for a television Chamber, when I will adjourn the Committee for soap opera than the realities of everyday life. Knife 10 minutes. crime is a symptom of social breakdown—a response requires an approach much more comprehensive than Devolution: English Cities simply removing their blades. Motion to Take Note It is nearly 40 years since I first walked the streets of Liverpool in the aftermath of the riots. Everybody 3.45 pm there knew exactly what was wrong; you, him, them, Moved by Lord Heseltine it—everybody else, never me. But I knew what was wrong: there was no one in charge. Since then, in many That the Grand Committee takes note of devolution of our great cities we have put somebody in charge: to English cities in the light of Lord Heseltine’s mayors, locally elected and publicly accountable. But report Empowering English Cities, published on it is a job half done. The fudge and compromise of 2 July. politics is the DNA of the journey of reform: powers unevenly distributed, leadership constrained, Whitehall Lord Heseltine (Non-Afl): My Lords, our country unreformed. faces a constitutional crisis unparalleled in peacetime. No one knows how the debate about our relationship I want a programme of empowerment to unleash with our European neighbours will change in the the ambitions of the British people. I want to empower months and years ahead. Feelings run deep and penetrate them to rise to the challenges of today. We will never every corner of society and we each have our views. I inspire such a vision with empty phrases or lofty have no intention of pursuing that issue today. I have exhortations. Cities are so much more than a coincidence one very clear reason for that decision. of functional disciplines; they are so much more than Whether we leave the European Union, form an the statistics of housing, education or wealth. They accommodation with it or remain within it—whichever are the multiplication of myriad different enthusiasms, way—our future depends principally on the success of personal talent, boundless energy and the dynamic of our great cities. They are the engines of our prosperity community and partnership. and the rock of our stability. They made this country To unleash this torrent of human creativity, we what it is, and all our tomorrows are dependent on need a plan of action—detailed, practical and based their strengths and are challenged by their weaknesses. on experience. We need a programme of national Of course, London is one of the world’s greatest cities, rejuvenation. We should certainly start with our cities, but government defined and imposed in detail from but the same spirit and concepts should embrace our London can never match the pride, motivation and—yes, towns and spread the benefits deeply into the countryside let us be frank—self-interest of people who live, work and villages. and enjoy their leisure in our other great cities. Let me set out some of the most important actions I joined this debate as a junior Minister in 1970. that I believe to be necessary. The Government must Throughout that time, as a nation, we have failed to lead—change of the scale and urgency required simply reform our institutions and administrative systems to will not happen unless the Prime Minister and the match the ever-escalating rate of change. The hurdles Chancellor of the Exchequer believe in it and drive it. facing our political parties were just too high. The First, a new department of the regions should be human instinct to protect the status quo was simply established. It should bring under one ministerial control too strong. The consequence has been to change at the the essential features of the devolution programme, speed of the slowest ship in the convoy. Progress including planning, public housing, transport, skills required compromise, consensus, fudge. and the employment agenda. Secondly, all government Let us again be frank—we can go on in the same offices outside London should be brought together in old way. It is less controversial, more comfortable and regional offices under an official at director-general the consequences will become apparent long after we, level. Thirdly, Select Committees should be established the present generation, have moved on. I ask your in both Houses of Parliament to comment on, advise Lordships to reject such dereliction of duty, so careless and review the devolution programme. The Government a discharge of the legacy that we will bequeath. should take all necessary steps to ensure that their My report, Empowering English Cities, attempts to departments and all relevant quangos co-operate portray a vision and sets out the detailed policies to with combined authorities in the discharge of their achieve it. It is a tale of two cities: two interwoven responsibilities. Finally, the Government should publish cities, linked, interdependent and entwined. There is an annual report showing the powers and resources the city of excellence: great entrepreneurs, world-class available to city mayors in competitor countries. GC 27 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 28

[LORD HESELTINE] relevant today as they were then, and I will touch on Once the Government have demonstrated their them briefly. In doing so, I hope that the noble Lord commitment, mayors should be empowered to do the will accept that my colleagues and I are here not to job properly and effectively. First, it should be the dilute his message, but to enhance and empower it still duty of each mayor of a combined authority to produce further. We believed then, and believe now, very strongly five-year rolling strategies with detailed implementation in the principle that decisions in a mature democracy programmes. They should cover its spatial strategy, should be taken as close as possible to the people they local economy, transport, housing, education and skills, will affect. That has become known as subsidiarity. and environmental policy. These policies should be Devolution implies a degree of decision-making that given statutory status and incorporated into national is more extensive and holistic than simple delegation policy. or decentralisation, however desirable they may also be. In addition, each mayor should publish a “condition I would draw the important distinction between, on of the people” report. That would analyse social the one hand, the delegation of funds—which, by its imbalance, health statistics, and quality of life. The job very nature, is a short-term decision—and devolution of the local police commissioner should be merged with of fund-raising powers on the other: once that that of the elected mayor. With immediate effect, the responsibility has been given it is extremely unlikely to Government should transfer to the mayors day-to-day be removed again. Allocation of a central government responsibility for the quality of education, the skills budget, funding stream, by contrast, can be at the mercy of and the unemployment and employment programmes. individual Governments and Chancellors. I am not The existing European funds and a reintroduced topslice sure whether this report clearly distinguishes between fund, as first created by George Osborne, should be these two quite separate objectives and exercises: one allocated to the combined authorities by competitive can lead to the other, but the evolution does not bidding that reflects the quality of their outputs, local happen automatically. It also follows from our starting contributions and public support. The Treasury should point of principle that devolution does not stop at one agree local tax-raising powers to combined authorities, sub-national or sub-federal level. Taking power from particularly a tourist tax and charges for cultural Whitehall or Westminster to national parliaments in exhibitions. The role of mayor should be strengthened. Holyrood, Cardiff Bay, Stormont and, indeed, to the The ultimate accountability must rest with the people metropolitan cities in England does not absolve them in elections every four years. Finally, the Government from distributing powers and resources to lower levels should hold urgent discussions with representatives of of governance. the private sector, and legislate, if necessary, to create As my noble friend Lord Purvis observed in a support for companies with the resource available to recent debate, a truly federal UK constitution would their equivalents overseas. necessitate democratic accountability at all levels, and Yesterday I went to another great British city, Cardiff. we believe that double devolution has been as The devolution agenda is now enshrined in our systematically pursued as it should be. More local constitutional assumption. Indeed, the debate today is levels of governance have not received the same amount not about restoring power to London but whether the of attention; for example, I believe that town and United Kingdom itself can withstand the stress of parish councils can be very effective in hands-on Brexit. No one feels the imperative to do so more representation and in management of local facilities. strongly than I. There has always been a good case for intra vires, But alongside this debate runs another. The question enabling all authorities to exercise all powers not is posed: why should the economies of Scotland, Wales specifically excluded, rather than the other way round. and Northern Ireland have such empowerment, when As a general principle, I am worried by the implication often more populous and wealthier cities in England in the Heseltine report when it appears to share the are denied them? I believe we need response and criticism of mayors that, enthusiasm from every corner of our land as the escalating pace of change across the world overwhelms “the powers and resources that our conurbations have are uneven the tradition and assumptions of yesteryear. Power and bespoke”. shared can become power enhanced. Let us breathe Given the remarkable diversity of our country in every life into the devolution agenda. I beg to move. conceivable area of challenge and opportunity, that is exactly as it should be. When we extend the basic Noble Lords: Hear, hear. principles beyond the larger cities of England, this becomes even more essential. 3.57 pm It is surely axiomatic that more rural parts of the Lord Tyler (LD): My Lords, Parliament and the country cannot be shut out of the advantages of more country owe a huge debt of gratitude to the noble democratic self-government. The noble Lord referred Lord, Lord Heseltine, for his long-standing and single- to the countryside in that context. I appreciate that minded pursuit of this subject, reflected in this great this report does not purport to extend its remit beyond report and, indeed, by the speech he has just made to the major English cities, but the Minister must your Lordships. acknowledge that there are lessons here for more rural I can claim an affliction that is similar to what parts of England as well. I have no doubt that he has might almost be described by the noble Lord’s party read The future of non-metropolitan England recently colleagues as his obsession. As long ago as 1968, I was published by the LGA. I hope that he will accept that a co-author of a political pamphlet called Power to the that is a very timely antidote to overconcentration on Provinces. We had a number of themes which are as the major conurbations. GC 29 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 30

I acknowledge that my experience as a Devon county Inspired by Cornwall’sexample,a number of upper-tier councillor and then as a Cornish MP reinforces my authorities—mainly rural and with no major cities—have conviction that the urban case has been more effectively come together to form Britain’s Leading Edge group. pursued than that for rurality, not least by the noble Their latest report both demonstrates the value of Lord, Lord Heseltine. The recent Lords Select Committee bottom-up initiatives and displays a healthy approach on the rural economy made a similar point, and if to non-metropolitan devolution aspiration. time permits I may return to the Cornish experience In this debate, my Liberal Democrat colleagues will later. follow up a number of these more general points with A persistent concern has been the lack of demonstrably some specific examples of the direction in which we effective scrutiny and accountability. We were dismayed hope the devolution process will go next. In the meantime, by the overcentralisation of power implicit in the Cities I repeat my personal thanks to the noble Lord, and Local Government Devolution Bill in 2015. We Lord Heseltine, for leading us in this direction and warned then of the possibility—even the likelihood—that giving us this great debate. we might be legislating for new one-party fiefdoms, 4.05 pm with the mayor, the appointed deputy mayor, and a firm majority of the only body to which they would be Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, the noble Lord, answerable in the combined authority, all from the same Lord Heseltine, and I go back a long way. I was the political party. Without wider accountability, the risk leader of Newcastle City Council during both periods of partisan patronage and petty corruption is increased. in which he was Secretary of State at the Department Democracy must not only be done but must be seen to of the Environment with responsibility for local be done. government. We were by no means always in agreement, but his interest was genuine. I recall being invited by The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, expressed similar him to dinner on one occasion. I accepted with some concerns in those debates. He said: trepidation: the venue was the Tower of London—not, “We hear about accountability. What accountability is there in I hasten to add, in the Beauchamp Tower. His concern local government today? … In a vast number of councils in this for English cities is long-standing and welcome, but I country, the councillors never change from one party to another. have to say that I have reservations about some of his A significant number of councils do not change allegiance either”.— proposals. [Official Report, 22/6/15; col. 1397.] One major component of the noble Lord’sprogramme Fortunately, a few weeks ago, largely as a result of the is the requirement of elected mayors for what in many local government revival of Liberal Democrats, that areas would be not just individual cities but city regions. was put to the test. Newcastle was one of a number of councils required to hold a referendum in 2012 on whether to have an We also argued in 1968, and have argued ever since, elected mayor. As in a number of other places, the that the democratic deficit has been dangerously developed electorate rejected the idea. Now, we have an elected still further by the tendency of Whitehall towards mayor for the North of Tyne Combined Authority, top-down imposition of structures, with limited menus established this year as the price for what is a modest of permitted powers and boundaries. We Liberal step towards a measure of local government reform, Democrats, like the previous Liberal Party, have always to which our neighbouring authorities south of the argued for bottom-up initiatives, giving the people in Tyne declined to subscribe. identifiable areas a role in deciding how, when and in The reward for the creation of this new body is very what form they are to benefit from increased subsidiarity. limited from a financial perspective; a much vaunted This has led to our concept of devolution on demand, £600 million over 30 years amounts to little more than with elected authorities bidding to take on responsibilities £6 million a year for each of the constituent authorities. from a menu of options. For example, current bids As I have frequently pointed out, Newcastle alone has might start with the current powers of the Welsh suffered a financial loss amounting to £280 million a Assembly or Scottish Parliament. year since 2010, rising to £330 million by 2022, from a That brings me back to the Cornish experience. The combination of government cuts in funding and rising coalition Government, especially my Liberal Democrat costs. As in other places, this is a 60%-plus cut in the ministerial colleagues, were determined to demonstrate council’s budget. that the city deals were not the only model for Nationally, since 2010, government core funding decentralisation or devolution. No longer a county for local authorities will have been cut by £16 billion a council and with its newly formed unitary authority, year by 2020. Welcome though the Transforming Cities Cornwall was judged to be ready for a degree of Fund is to its recipients, the amounts referred to in the devolution. Although this was very modest—perhaps noble Lord’s report are, to put it politely, modest, more delegation than full-blooded devolution—it has ranging from £250 million for the West Midlands to recognised a level of separate identity and historic £59 million for Tees Valley.In addition to the Transforming self-determination. Democratic accountability has been Cities Fund, the Government have announced a Stronger preserved by a more traditional leader and cabinet Towns Fund. Perhaps the Minister could tell us whether structure, avoiding the “elective dictatorship” of an a “supporting villages fund” is envisaged. The Stronger elected mayor. It has proved a popular and well-respected Towns Fund will dispense all of £1.6 billion up to 2026, model, giving real leadership through the Brexit crisis. with amounts ranging from £281 million for the north-west Other more rural English areas are queuing up to to £25 million for the east of England. That is hardly follow the Cornish lead, with a unitary authority likely to make a significant impact. The very fact of being seen as the key to progress. there being two separate funds raises questions about GC 31 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 32

[LORD BEECHAM] I welcome the noble Lord’s proposal to establish a the Government’sapproach. It implies a two-tier approach department for the English regions and his call to reinstate to addressing the needs of our regions, instead of the government regional offices, abolished by Vince Cable looking at the issues across whole areas such as the during the coalition, and the suggested dispersal of north-east, let alone between regions. government offices into the regions. We always found We hear references to the northern powerhouse, but the regional office to be extremely supportive and there appears to be very modest progress in improving helpful, while it existed. I confess that I am less enthusiastic the appalling trans-Pennine rail route connecting the about proposals to transfer responsibility for schools’ north-east to Yorkshire and the north-west, with the performance to combined authority mayors. It should emphasis on HS2 coming at enormous expense and with be returned to local councils, from which it has been highly questionable benefit to the north-east. Newcastle effectively removed for many years and where local MP Catherine McKinnell, who chairs the East Coast councillors have a significant interest. This indeed reflects Main Line All-Party Group, has pointed out that, a concern among some of us who strongly support the “there is no confirmation from the Government that the line case for a regional approach to such issues as economic north of York will be upgraded, which will make parts of the development and transport but have reservations about north even further away from that national infrastructure investment, other services which are closer to local communities rather than benefiting from HS2”.—[Official Report, Commons, and which need to be accessible to local elected councillors 5/3/19; col. 331WH.] as well as to residents. The concentration of multiple roles Local councils estimate that the line needs at least in the hands of elected mayors could be problematic, £3 billion to provide a good service and be ready for as we are likely to see in the potential forthcoming the arrival of high-speed trains. This suggests a failure elevation of one, at least, noble former holder of the on the part of relevant government departments to position. work together on developing a strategy.It also underlines I should declare an historical interest in Richard III, the need for local government to be engaged in the a most maligned English monarch, who presided process. This could, of course, include elected mayors, over the Council of the North formed by his brother but should not depend on an enforced change to Edward IV. It would be good to see the revival of such adopting that mode of leadership. a body and the creation of similar ones, not to displace Devolution should not be confined, critical as it is, existing councils but to ensure that the needs and to matters affecting the local economy. There should aspirations of the regions and their constituent authorities be an enhanced role at the regional level at the least in are adequately reflected in and through their local the oversight of health and further and higher education, government structure. transport and the impact of climate change and of custodial services, but devolution must go beyond 4.13 pm merely delegating the responsibility for the provision Lord Turnbull (CB): My Lords, while reading the of local services and the health of the local economy excellent report by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, I to local government in general or to cities in particular. was at times overcome by nostalgia, having followed It is essential to ensure that adequate financial resources the history of local government finance, functions and are available. boundaries since I joined the Treasury in 1970. I remember The plight of local councils is also exacerbated by in the early 1980s the Treasury was proud to have got the local government finance system. The savage cuts local authority self-finance expenditure—LASFE to of the past nine years have clearly damaged the capacity the cognoscenti—up to more than 60%, but only a of councils to address the needs of their residents and decade later it was down below 25%. Local authorities protect and promote the local economy. In fairness to have been stripped of functions and taken out of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, he replaced the Thatcher social housing and their boundaries are constantly poll tax with council tax, but after 27 years, including, reshuffled. How did this happen? I regret to say, during the years of Labour Government, There was a narrative in Whitehall and Westminster little has been done to update it. Thus the residents of that local authorities were incompetent and wasteful, a small house in the ward I represent as a councillor in out of touch with the interests of local residents, meddling Newcastle will be paying for a band A property worth in national politics, anti-business and anti-development. £40,000 one-third as much as the residents of homes Was that a fair description? It was certainly not in all worth more than £1 million. cases, but there were prominent examples that fitted It is impossible to empower English cities without the bill, such as my home borough of Lambeth, Brent, ensuring that they have the resources to tackle the the GLC and Liverpool. One response was the problems they and their citizens face and, importantly, introduction of a poll tax on the premise that business, to promote the local economy. A system in which which contributed much of local taxes, had no vote council tax increases are limited to the same percentage, and many voters paid little in rates. The unwinding of albeit yielding widely different sums between a council the poll tax led to business rates being sequestered and such as Newcastle and its counterparts in the south-east, captured as a national tax, and rates replaced by is inherently unfair since the gap is not closed by council tax, which was less buoyant and less progressive. central government support. The noble Lord makes a The Whitehall/Westminster narrative continued for welcome call for more capital funding for local government several decades and to some degree lives on. Recently, and a power for mayoral authorities to raise local education has been taken away from local authorities taxes and charges, interestingly including a tourist tax. and cuts in spending imposed on them have been more Such changes in my view should not be confined to severe than on government departments. The first mayoral authorities. thing that strikes one about the narrative is its sheer GC 33 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 34 hypocrisy, the pot calling the kettle black, as though Whitehall departments—the DoE, the DTI, employment central government never had any major failures of and so on—which came together to act at a regional policy or delivery. When I joined the Departure of the level. They were an essential counterbalance to the Environment as Permanent Secretary in 1994, with the vertical structures of Whitehall. It was a big mistake noble Lord, Lord Deben, then Secretary of State, it to abolish them and I hope they can be quickly was apparent even then that the narrative was outdated. reconstructed. I met many local government chief executives and found There is one issue where I queried the noble Lord’s them impressive, possessing skills often lacking in proposals. He proposes a separate department of the Whitehall, which explains why, when senior civil service regions with its own Secretary of State and Permanent positions were opened up to open competition, many Secretary. In the 1990s the DoE and the DETR, while of them were successful. I also found that they were retaining their responsibilities for housing, planning keen—desperate, even—to develop their communities. and regeneration, were, in effect, the conveners of the In 1997, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, was succeeded network. Creating a department that has a co-ordination by the noble Lord, Lord Prescott. I am sorry that he is function but no services of its own—no skin in the not well enough to be with us. He changed the name of game—is likely not to be effective. A department of the department to the Department of the Environment, everything that would be the DETR, which was already Transport and the Regions, recognising explicitly the a monster department, plus skills and employment regional dimension of its work. His commitment to might be too much of an ask. the regions was strong and unwavering, but in retrospect The belittling of local government has done immense I think he took a wrong turn in trying to develop a damage to England, politically,socially and economically, greater regional dimension by championing the creation exacerbating divisions rather than closing them up. of regional assemblies. These never took off. Most of We should welcome the mea culpa of the noble Lord, the subsequent development of local authorities has Lord Heseltine, and his conversion to strong and been focused on stronger executive action with the effective local government, but to achieve that Whitehall/ creation of elected mayors overseen by small assemblies— Westminster has to cast off its inbred sense of superiority. more power to act, rather than power to debate. I have one final thought: 30 years after its introduction, The report from the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, council tax is due for revaluation. It takes no account makes a powerful case for city regions with elected of changes in relative property values across the country mayors on the London model. One can spend a lot of and, without that, we will find no proper solution to time obsessing about the optimal size of the local local government finance. authority, but we are close to a reasonable outcome. Where it is possible to make unitaries work they 4.20 pm should be the first choice, bringing housing and planning alongside other major services. But that still leaves Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con): My Lords, I some functions that are too broad even for the larger congratulate my noble friend on his powerful follow-up unitaries, such as London boroughs and the met to his original 2012 report, No Stone Unturned. I make authorities around our big cities, such as transport, it clear at the beginning that I have no great experience infrastructure, business development, regeneration, skills in local government. My contribution to today’s and further education, and the development of affordable debate flows from four—or maybe three and a half— housing. By the latter, I mean principally land assembly episodes. The first is the year that I spent chairing a and planning, rather than the landlord function, which Select Committee of your Lordships’ House looking needs to be at a more local level, perhaps left to into citizenship and civic engagement. My noble housing associations. It is for these wide-ranging services friend Lady Eaton, who was a doughty member of that the city regions are best equipped. I also endorse the committee, will speak later. We looked at some of the recommendation that mayors absorb the unloved the underpinnings of the issues that my noble friend police commissioners, as in London. referred to in his remarks. The second is my chairmanship of several companies, both in the English regions and When I arrived in the Departure of the Environment abroad—they are all declared in the register of your in 1994 there were still two important components of Lordships’ House—which has given me some economic the Heseltine legacy: urban development corporations thoughts. The third is my personal belief that we have and the regional offices. The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, created and are creating two nations: London, with its notes that there was opposition to urban development environs in the south-east, and the rest of the country. corporations as they were taking away responsibilities If that trend continues for the next quarter of a century, from local authorities,but where they were reviving derelict we will create strains to our social cohesion that we industrial and port land in areas with few residents I will come to regret. The last—this is maybe the half—is thought that was appropriate. Indeed, the centres of the fact that, for a very few years, I was the Member of our major cities are much more prosperous and completely Parliament for Walsall North. This gives me an transformed from where they were 30 years ago. The opportunity to thank my noble friend, who came to problems now lie elsewhere, in the suburbs and smaller speak for me in my by-election all those years ago. cities. Going forward with UDCs on the original model I share the view of my noble friend that, unless we is probably not the right vehicle. The particular structures find a way to create at Whitehall a central focus for the should be for mayors to decide. regions, the possibility of developing the vision that he The other piece of machinery was the regional has is doomed. There is far too great a danger that office network, which strangely the noble Lord gets to critical issues either fall between the departmental only at page 52 of his report. This was a consortium of cracks or become the subject of departmental turf wars. GC 35 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 36

[LORD HODGSON OF ASTLEY ABBOTTS] That takes me to my final point. Much of my noble In the civic engagement committee, we saw this in friend’s report is focused on economic activity and spades. Our recommendations went to the Department performance; and the importance of those metrics for Education, the Home Office and the Cabinet Office. cannot and should not be overlooked. If there was one Indeed, my two noble friends on the Front Bench have overwhelming thread, however, in the evidence we in turn replied to them in different ways.Werecommended received at the civic engagement committee, it was that that there ought to be a Minister with overarching people wanted to belong. They all feel that the responsibility for this matter. I regret to say that all developments of recent years have left them uprooted that we have achieved so far is an interministerial and their sense of community undermined. There is a working group and we feel relatively neutered. series of qualitative aspects, some of which my noble A second challenge that arises from having no friend referred to, which need to form part of any Minister with overarching responsibility is what we devolution settlement. They are not easy to measure, came to see in the committee as “initiativitis”. A new but are critical none the less. Minister arrives. He or she is very keen. They start up As an example, when I see, on page 62 of the report, something and, a year later, they are moved on. The the proposal to transfer responsibility for affordable initiative drifts into oblivion. Nobody checks whether housing to the combined authority mayors, I have my it worked. Nobody sees where there are lessons to be concerns. It is not that I oppose the idea of finding learned that could be deployed across other parts of housing for our fellow citizens, but because, far too often, the firmament and nobody sees whether taxpayers’ “affordable” housing has come to mean bad housing: money is being wasted. There is a need to find a way to poorly designed, poorly constructed and crammed in, build up the institutional memory, as one might call it, with no sense of community involved. In my view, too of what works. often we are in danger of creating the slums of 50 years from now. The housing market has become dominated In my view, it will not be sufficient for individual by a handful of housebuilders who, by careful pricing, regions to go it alone. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, impose standardised designs all across the country. The talked about the northern powerhouse and the rail glory of the country, and the glory of our communities, link between Hull, Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool. lie inter alia in vernacular, distinctive buildings. Today, If that is to go ahead, it will require a carefully if, blindfolded, one is taken and helicoptered into a co-ordinated interregional programme of promotion. modern housing estate and the blindfold is then removed, The cities that form the heart of the region will need to one cannot tell whether one is in Truro, Norwich or be supersensitive about how actions taken at the centre Stockton-on-Tees. will be seen in their constituent parts. The need to create communities to which people In his report, my noble friend refers to Walsall’s feel committed and in which they feel proud to live is a worldwide reputation for the leather industry. Walsall vital part of any devolution settlement—and, indeed, and the other towns that make up the Black Country, as my noble friend said in his opening remarks, vital in all with their own specialties, will need reassurance the future creation of a society at ease with itself. that their concerns are always being fairly addressed. For example, I chair a company based in Manchester. 4.27 pm Wecan recruit people from Manchester and the immediate Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab): My Lords, surroundings but from further away in that geographic the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, has done the House a area we cannot. Why not? Because the transport links service in securing this debate so soon after the publication are insufficiently good, the commuting times are too of his timely and visionary report, which I read with great long and people do not want to move to work for the interest. I agree with his description of the challenge facing company as they do not want to spend an hour and a us here today: to harness and unleash the talents of half or two hours sitting on a bus or a tram. people across England and ensure that communities My noble friend will understand from my remarks nationwide feel the benefits more deeply. I declare an so far that I support the strategic thrust of his report. I interest as the chair of the National Housing Federation, hope he will forgive me if I urge him not to try too the trade body for housing associations. much to cram together the uncrammable. For example, Devolution has empowered a new can-do spirit in he and I have some knowledge of the county of our city regions, enabling local people to tackle local Shropshire. Shropshire makes up part of the West challenges through partnerships and policies which Midlands Combined Authority. Take the small town make sense for them. It has been uplifting to witness of Clun, west of Shropshire on the Welsh border, on regions confront issues such as housing, social care the one hand, and Nuneaton, on the eastern border of and transport in a way that makes the most of the the authority, on the other. Those two places are strengths of their region. However, there is of course 90 miles apart. According to Google, it takes two hours more to be done. Many city region mayors and combined to drive from one to the other, and the environmental authorities remain beholden to Westminster for the critical and societal differences between the two of them are investment and decisions that their local communities self-evident. I hope very much, therefore, that although need. Many more areas are yet to benefit from any of we are discussing the important subject of devolution the flexibilities enjoyed by combined authorities. I from the centre of the regions, as the noble Lord, hope, therefore, that in his response to the debate the Lord Tyler, pointed out, there is a need for the regions Minister will agree that the benefits of devolution in turn to be thinking about how they are sensitive to should be extended more deeply where they already the devolution responsibilities that they have—in this exist, and more widely where they do not, so that every case, to Clun and Nuneaton. place is given the opportunity to thrive. GC 37 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 38

As chair of the National Housing Federation, I partners and local government; indeed, they report am well aware of the value of empowering cities and the difficulties they face in partnering with local authorities regions. Housing associations are not-for-profit providers as a key obstacle in increasing housing supply. The that invest any operating surplus into their local National Housing Federation is already convening communities. They are shaped by the communities representatives of local government and housing they serve and, in turn, shape the homes and services associations to find ways of working together more they provide to meet the needs of their community. closely. It would be of great benefit if the Minister They are busy putting into practice the principles of could commit to supporting local authorities to do empowering people and communities across England more of this type of working. every day. Housing associations are learning first-hand the The report by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, effectiveness of partnership working, but they could observes that reform of our local political institutions achieve so much more with the right support from has taken place, central government. The National Housing Federation’s “at the speed of the slowest ship in the convoy”. submission to the comprehensive spending review calls for a £10 billion national regeneration fund over 10 years. I would like to talk about the flagships of the convoy: The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, said earlier that the the pioneering partnerships between housing associations Government must lead. I hope the Minister can assure and local authorities. There are many lessons to be the Grand Committee that the Government support learned on the opportunity and benefits that these can such a regeneration fund as a clear indication of that realise. I draw the House’s attention to Manchester. It leadership. Ultimately, effective partnership working is here that the flagship of our convoy in England can relies on mutual trust and understanding. Will the be found: Greater Manchester Housing Providers. Minister commit to supporting this by providing local Founded in 2010, this group of more than 25 housing authorities with a sustainable future funding settlement, associations and ALMOs manages one in every five homes thus enabling them to lead and co-ordinate place-making in Greater Manchester. It works closely with the in every one of their communities? Manchester mayor and the Greater Manchester Combined Authority to ensure that the region’s housing need is met and to offer services far beyond homes. 4.34 pm The results of this partnership are impressive. Last Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, I pay tribute to the year, it helped nearly 2,000 homeless people in the work of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, whose focus region into homes, supported another 2,000 residents on the economic futures of cities, particularly across the into employment, and helped more than 1,000 community north of England, has been crucial to their revitalisation. groups in the region. From the 1980s, they have in many cases become places Manchester has very ambitious plans across housing, with a new vibrancy, often related to the expansion of driven partly by need but also by the acknowledgement their universities and the achievement of the Urban that housing provides wider community and economic Development Corporation. I strongly support the benefits. Secure housing is the bedrock of a thriving recommendations and conclusions reached by the noble entrepreneurial community. There can be no stronger Lord on a new department for English regions, how to evidence of the real human impact that empowering replace EU structural funds, the allocation method of our cities can have. However, neither the GMCA nor capital funding by the Treasury, the need for new the GMHP are resting on their laurels. Last year, a Select Committees in both Houses to review devolution new partnership was announced that will create a joint and the dispersal of the offices of Whitehall. These are venture housing developer, which will add 500 homes all fundamental to delivering the success that we all to the region each year. want. Co-operation between housing associations and On Monday, I was asked to meet researchers from public sector housing providers is not restricted to the OECD who were investigating why productivity in Manchester. Across England, housing associations, UK cities and their surrounding city regions is not local government and private developers are partnering higher. I suggested that if they simply read the reports to meet the needs of local areas. Look to East Anglia, of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, over the years, they where the Iceni Partnership of three mid-sized housing could save themselves a great deal of time in writing associations has delivered 3,500 affordable, high-quality their report. homes over 15 years; to Gateshead, where a partnership I concur with very many of the conclusions that the of Gateshead Council, the Home Group housing noble Lord has reached. However, if I may, I want to association and private developer Galliford Try will correct a small error on page 20: my noble friend deliver 2,000 homes over 15 years; and to Brighton, Lord Goddard of Stockport was the Liberal Democrat where the Hyde Group housing association and Brighton leader of Stockport as opposed to the Labour leader. & Hove City Council established a joint venture to This is clearly a typing error. deliver 1,000 new homes by 2020, of which 100% will There has been other work carried out, such as that be affordable. of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and the Institute for The benefits of this partnership working are clear: Government, which, with the Centre for Cities, produced local organisations empowering local communities, a report in 2011 subtitled How Elected Mayors Can Help delivering the services and support that benefit local Drive Growth. The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, has just people. But there is potential for much more of this produced a report of the UK2070 Commission, and type of working. The good news is that housing there have been many reviews and reports on the associations stand ready to work more closely with private northern powerhouse. GC 39 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 40

[LORD SHIPLEY] We have to allow localities to merge budgets from This is not a new issue. In 1962, then Prime Minister Whitehall to effect savings and, as a consequence, to Harold Macmillan said that he was determined to, deliver better services.If Whitehall is not joined up—and it “prevent two nations developing geographically, a poor north and is not—it can be joined up only at a local level. It a rich and overcrowded south”. is very important that infrastructure funding is A hundred years ago, the population of the north was transformational in its allocation. It is important for 35% of the UK; it is now 25%. According to the BBC, the Treasury to invest its infrastructure moneys in one in three new jobs created in the UK in the last places which may not give as fast a return as places decade is in the south of England. We talk of the need which are already better off. to rebalance the UK economy, and that certainly I have been in the past, and still am, a supporter of needs to be done. the mayoral structure. I campaigned for a mayor for Let me be clear: this is not about reducing the the city of Newcastle during the referendum. My success of London, because that is where some of the reasons were that the powers of the leader were altered tax revenues come from that are spent elsewhere in the in the period just before 2010 so that a council leader UK. However, we need to be careful. I keep reading in had broadly similar powers to a mayor. I felt that the London press that London seems to want to keep council leaders should derive their power from all more tax income, when it should be seen as UK tax residents and electors, not just a party group. income generated through London. It is not just London’s Finally, I support very strongly what the noble tax income. Lord, Lord Heseltine, said about the role of the private On the publication of the industrial strategy, the sector. I was very pleased to hear his words about the Secretary of State said that: Government working with the private sector to identify “For centuries, British innovation and ingenuity have been companies that can expand in those places where we firmly rooted in our regions and our nations”, want greater private sector expansion. and that: “Government is working with regions, towns and cities to help 4.54 pm them build on their unique strengths”. The Lord Bishop of Newcastle: My Lords, I thank That is clearly the intention of the industrial strategy, the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, for securing this debate but the UK spends only 1.7% of GDP on R&D, on an important issue. I congratulate him on his compared to an OECD average of 2.4%. It is between fascinating and significant report. 3% and 4% in countries with a higher manufacturing base, higher skill levels, and higher productivity and I speak with some trepidation because many of the wages. Low R&D spending means less investment in noble Lords taking part in this debate bring to it so businesses improving their products, leading in turn to much experience of government, both local and national. a lower manufacturing base, and then to lower R&D I do not have any of that. What I hope to bring is spending because of the smaller size of that manufacturing experience of over 30 years in ministry, where, unlike base. We have to reverse that trend. many professions, I live where I serve. It has been my privilege to have been involved in the lives of people in It is of little surprise to me that, despite all the fine Stevenage in Hertfordshire, in south-east London and words about the north, huge plans are being developed now most recently as a bishop in the north-east. for the Oxford-Cambridge-London golden triangle. Where are the golden triangles proposed for the Midlands I have loved reading this report. That is something I and the north? do not say very often about reports of this nature. At The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, talked of the role the heart of it for me is the noble Lord’s reflection on of government as being first and foremost about the three weeks he walked the streets of Liverpool leadership. I absolutely agree with that. There has to following the Toxteth riots in 1981, to which he referred be trust of people outside London. He has talked of in his opening speech. He said that that journey opened removing the “dead hand” of Whitehall. his political eyes. He saw the unhappiness and lack of ownership and engagement of people in their communities. He saw the frustration and despair of people whose 4.39 pm futures are decided by people who live 200 miles away Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. and who, as the noble Lord writes, “have never experienced your life”. 4.52 pm Out of this experience the urban development corporations were born, and in Newcastle, as beneficiaries Lord Brougham and Vaux: Please continue, of this in 1987, many of us rejoice today in the Lord Shipley. transformation this brought about on the quayside in the heart of our city. The mechanisms of investment Lord Shipley: I was talking about the decentralisation and leadership through the UDCs and investment and of Whitehall departments. A few years ago, I called leadership through devolved combined authorities are for the Department for Transport to move out of very different, but underlying both initiatives is a London in its entirety, other than a small head office. I concern to address the effects of the chasm between want to repeat that call because there is no need for the London and the rest of the regions in England—a Department for Transport to be located in London chasm which the noble Lord believes, and I agree, when Transport for London is here. Indeed, if Channel 4 contributed to the social unrest and riots in Liverpool can move out of London, so can the Department for in the 1980s and which in our time is contributing to Transport, and so might other departments. the toxic divisions in our country over Brexit. GC 41 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 42

I support the noble Lord’s 20-point plan and vision my noble friend. In fact, we do not; we properly regard to empower English regions, and I am pleased that it as a mission which he has not given up, and all credit since its inception in November last year the North of to him for that. Tyne Combined Authority gives my part of the world I feel a bit like a Johnny-come-lately. Starting in the a chance to be a part of this. I will be even more delighted 1980s, I have been engaged in these issues for only just if the combined authority can reach its full potential, over 30 years, rather than going back to the 1960s and with the inclusion of Gateshead, South Tyneside,Durham 1970s. Before I talk about them, I wish to draw attention and Sunderland, which I hope will happen. As the noble to two of my interests. I am chair of the Cambridgeshire Lord, Lord Beecham, said, the investment by the Development Forum, and I shall talk about the Government that the combined authority has attracted, Cambridgeshire and Peterborough Combined Authority, although welcome, is very modest. The private sector and I was the deputy director-general of the British is making a greater impact and showing greater confidence. Chambers of Commerce, and I shall talk about private In the North of Tyne area, which is the one I know sector involvement in devolution, which also goes best since it is exactly coterminous with the diocese of back to the 1980s. Newcastle, we have over 30,000 businesses that provide 415,000 jobs between them. To give just one example At the end of the 1980s, when I was deputy director- of this private sector confidence, at the beginning of general, we very nearly succeeded, on the basis of an this month technology giant Sage announced plans to understanding on the part of government that move its flagship offices to Cobalt Business Park in comparisons with other countries included an adverse North Tyneside, which is the largest out-of-town letting comparison of the relative strength of the business ever recorded in the north-east. community to generate infrastructure and investment However, the story in the public sector is much less and a focus on private sector decision-making at a encouraging. The extra funding afforded to the northern local level, which we lacked. Part of the argument, powerhouse has been more than offset by the reduction which my noble friend was engaged in, was that we in public sector jobs.Research from IPPR North marking should have public law chambers as they do in most the fifth anniversary of the northern powerhouse shows parts of Europe and around the world. We did not that across the north of England we have experienced take that view. We took the view that we could achieve a 2.8% fall in public sector employment since 2014. some of the benefits that public law chambers of The north has suffered a £3.6 billion cut in public commerce achieve while retaining private law status spending, leaving 200,000 more children in poverty. but taking responsibility for public functions. Office for National Statistics data shows that between I know from discussions with colleagues at the 2012 and 2018 the number of civil servants in the British Chambers of Commerce today that, in a sense, UK as a whole fell by 7%, but in a stark example of that is where they still are. They do not want to the chasm between London and the rest of the country, become part of government. They want functions that this cut has not fallen uniformly over the country. The impact on the business community—including business number of civil servants in London over this period investment, the promotion of trade and exports, and rose by 12%. the development of skills—to be something that the In the light of this, I was encouraged to read John business community can take responsibility for,including McDonnell’s interview with the Manchester Evening a responsibility for funding that activity. Back in the News in which he advocated moving a Treasury unit to 1980s, we did it on the basis that one penny on the new the north of England. As the report written by the national non-domestic rate would be available principally noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, points out, it has often for the business community to invest in the training been in the power of the Treasury to help or hinder and skills of their community. In that sense, it is not continued devolution, so it would seem fitting if that unlike taking responsibility now for the apprenticeship department took the lead in encouraging devolution levy or something of that kind. in this way.At present, as the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, I know that the chambers of commerce would want notes, London is too powerful and takes too many to take on this kind of responsibility. In the past, when everyday decisions. This report offers a cogent and the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce and Industry imaginative plan to change that. I urge the Grand was working hand in glove with Birmingham local Committee to note it. authorities, it was able to achieve dramatic things; I hope that the Government will consider the including, for example, the establishment of Birmingham recommendations very seriously indeed. This report Airport, the National Exhibition Centre and so on. It and vision speak not just to economic flourishing, can do more of these things in future. The problem is which is important and we must have at least that, but that government does not trust local bodies, and that go beyond it to the very nature of the society we seek extends to local business bodies. to build. That is where we were in the 1980s. The then Government had established local enterprise agencies, 5 pm which should have been part of the responsibility of Lord Lansley (Con): My Lords, I am very pleased to chambers of commerce, and then let them go and stopped contribute to this debate and to join others in expressing the funding for them. We were in discussion with the warm thanks to my noble friend Lord Heseltine for Government about supporting the chambers of commerce this report. Like the right reverend Prelate, I rather to do training and enterprise promotion. They said enjoyed reading it, and not simply as an exercise in that chambers of commerce were variable across the nostalgia. It was asserted, perhaps on this side, that we country and patchy, with quality differing from place sometimes think of this as an obsession on the part of to place. They therefore set up training and enterprise GC 43 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 44

[LORD LANSLEY] 5.08 pm councils, which took all the money and employed all the people—who coincidentally were most of the Lord Rooker (Lab): My Lords, I am very pleased to people who used to work for the Manpower Services be able to support the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, in Commission. About 10 years later,training and enterprise this debate on his latest report. I start by highlighting councils were abolished on the grounds that they were some key sentences that jumped off the page as I was variable in quality across the country and not reliable. reading it. On page 13, he writes: That is exactly what happens time and again. It happened “I now believe I was wrong”. to local employer networks; it happened to training On page 15, as the right reverend Prelate said, he and enterprise councils; and it happened to Business writes: Link in due course, which my noble friend established. “The three weeks I walked the streets”— At some point in the past 30 years, we should have of Liverpool— had the confidence to say that if the Government give “opened my political eyes … There was no one in charge”. the responsibility, funding and accountability to the business community, it will step up to the plate. We On page 18, he writes: should not be surprised if it does not step up to the “Political philosophy must be tempered with common sense”. plate, when we do not give it the responsibilities and On page 20, he writes: the funding. That is what I think we should do. “One lesson learned was simple. If the only route to success Cambridgeshire and Peterborough have a combined was voluntary, then there had to be a deal with prizes!” authority that embraces cities and countryside. It is On pages 25 to 27, there are lots of examples of not large; if anything, in my book it is sometimes too leadership and partnership bringing about success. small for the 30-year vision required to be achieved. I know first-hand the esteem in which the noble Arguably, for the Cambridgeshire-Peterborough city Lord’s work is held in Liverpool. Until his sad death region to be looked at holistically, it is always a good five years ago, I had a 50-year friendship from our idea to think about Suffolk and Norfolk alongside Aston University days with a Liverpool-based journalist, them to achieve scale. None the less, we are where we Ian Hamilton Fazey, who was at one time the managing are. However, what should not have happened is that director of the Liverpool Post and the Liverpool Echo, we ended up with one more tier of government. Parts and then for many years was the northern correspondent of my old constituency have a parish council and the of the Financial Times. He followed the forensic dedication district council, and then there is the county council shown by the noble Lord to Liverpool, both before and the combined authority. People wonder what on and after the 1981 riots. earth they need all those tiers of government to do. During some of those years, I was the shadow housing To echo what my noble friend said, at the very least and environment Minister in the other place. I was really the responsibilities of the county council and the grateful to those appointed by the noble Lord who combined authority must be put together—perhaps took me on visits to, for example, the former Cantril with those of the police and crime commissioner, as Farm, now renamed Stockbridge Village, and explained my noble friend suggested. Certainly, we must do that, what was going on in considerable detail. This morning, because otherwise we are asking the combined authority I re-read his famous minute to the Prime Minister from to set out its vision—for example, in the non-statutory August 1981: “it took a riot”. It is easy to see from spatial strategy—without it being able to deliver it; it re-reading it why he took the view he did then about does not have the wherewithal to make it happen. The the met counties, but in all other respects, the themes same is especially true of the local transport plan, and in his latest report are set out in that note, which is to some extent true of training and skills. If we give nearly 40 years old. the combined authority and the mayor those wider The noble Lord’s proposals are a package that I, for responsibilities and the capacity to deliver, we will be one, can support. Whitehall finds devolution very impressed by what Cambridgeshire and Peterborough difficult, as I know from my experience as chair of the can achieve. Food Standards Agency. It will therefore need a drive We are benefiting from the rebuilding of the A14 and from the centre, with support from the top, to deliver the Government’s sponsorship of the east-west rail the change needed to allow English cities to breathe. link from Cambridge to Oxford, but we are not asking Like him, I do not support a wholesale reform of local in the long run to have more money from a limited government, but we need to learn the lessons from government pot. What we want in a place such as recent years and see where reform to the combined Cambridge, which has the highest employment rate authority boundaries and some of the city boundaries for a city in Europe, is to be able to invest for ourselves is needed. and through tax increment financing to demonstrate I support close and detailed parliamentary scrutiny that the private sector borrowing that supports that in the form of Select Committees, but should it be can be repaid with interest. I hope that we can tackle committees in each House or a Joint Committee? I am that. not sure. There is more experience in this House, but As my noble friend illustrates on page 67 of his accountability of course lies with the Commons. I do report, we know that it is down to us to deal with the not have experience of a Joint Committee of both deep inequalities that continue to persist, literally only Houses and do not know whether it would work: a few miles apart, in a city such as Cambridge. We would the Lords be the junior partners, or would we know that we have to deal with that and that it is not have a free-standing committee of both Houses? I am somebody else’s responsibility. open on that. It is also true that now that we have a GC 45 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 46 form of fixed elections—whatever might happen with also fallen on this idea through the experience of some the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act—it makes good sense of the people that we have heard about through Brexit. to review the clash of dates in the electoral cycle. Good In our own cities we have seen disenchantment and accountability requires a degree of stability. That is disillusion, often symbolised by boarded-up high streets, important in both the private and the public sector. no local facilities to support people in poverty, food I have also come to the conclusion, to which I had banks and all the other things that tell us that parts of been opposed, that the role of the mayor and the police our country are in great need of attention. and crime commissioners should be combined. I The whole issue of devolution, as my noble friend understand that that was the original plan. However, it Lord Tyler has said, is one that we very much support would be a retrograde step if the 2017 Tory manifesto but, as he also said, we mean devolution, not delegation. was followed and the elections returned to first past We have seen that through all parties’ attempts to give the post. That was the commitment, and it would be a powers, such as the recent assemblies. I served on one disaster. The present electoral arrangements have given in the south-west and actually it had no powers, so no us a range of police commissioners that we would not one could really see the point of attending it. What otherwise have had. happened was that all the powers went to the RDAs We will return to a modern form of skills training and the assembly, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, only with enhanced further education. When I last has said, was given powers to discuss rather than to counted, this House included 40 chancellors of universities act. In my view it is essential that any devolution is but not one boss from further education—not one. I about transferring powers. freely admit that I was a child of FE; for three years in I know that in my city, Bristol, when I have gone the late 1950s, after I left school and before I entered out for election, all the matters that people raise on the higher education. It is a completely different world. If doorstep are things that we have very little power to do you have not been in FE, you do not know about it. If anything about. Transport is the biggest but there is also you went from school to higher education, you have housing, schools—they are not in democratic control no idea what was happening in the 1950s and 1960s with locally—and social care. One of the issues that we felt further education in this country and the opportunities was important was that taxes should raise money locally. it gave to a range of people that are simply not The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, talked about this: in available today. We need not to turn the clock back but France, three times more finance for local government to have a more modern version. is raised locally, while in Sweden the figure is 12 times Buried deep in proposal 14 is the plan for, among as much. As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, was saying, other things, a tourist tax. I will leave most of the detail the money coming from the Government is not so to my noble friend Lord Hunt, but a good test bed would much what people are looking for from devolution, be the 2022 Commonwealth Games in Birmingham. although there would have to be equalisation as some A pilot scheme could be set up. The Treasury will parts of the country are much wealthier than others. never like local taxes and charges, and so will wreck most good ideas. Therefore, we need a Chancellor Some devolution has taken place but if you are a with the confidence to change. If you have the confidence city leader then my suspicion is that you feel that the in what you are doing and the policy, you can embrace most enormous amount of time, attention and resource change and take a risk that might not work, but if you has been put into devising schemes where very little do not have the confidence, nothing will happen. power is actually handed over to elected representatives, Having someone in charge is crucial, as the noble whether mayors, city leaders or councillors, along with Lord said throughout his report. In my view, while not a whole panoply of contracts with rules, conditions unfettered, the mayors should be able to explore different and teams of lawyers to ensure that these are adhered ways of working with the support of combined authorities, to. A lot of this stifles local imagination, local creativity, and the noble Lord gives examples of what could be and local solutions to local problems. As the noble done. It does not have to be the same in every combined Lord, Lord Lansley, said, local business finds exactly authority; that is the beauty of it. the same thing. The report’sfinal key point is that the recommendations The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, talks about other and observations strike at the heart of the way in European cities. I used to represent my city in which we run the country. That is pretty crucial, and it EUROCITIES and heard about the powers that other is a positive point rather than a negative one. We are European cities have. They are astounded, and some where we are,and next week we will see a new Government are bemused, to hear that the Mayor of London has to formed. In my view, it would be a dereliction of duty go to the Government cap in hand and ask for money to the country if this report were not used as a central to support essential infrastructure. As for provincial tool of domestic policy while the Government continue cities, they have even fewer powers; London has actually to grapple with Brexit. I think it is a fantastic report not done too badly out of it. It would be ridiculous to expect the mayors of Hamburg, Toulouse or Lyon, as 5.15 pm in the report, to have this much sticky tape, as I always Baroness Janke (LD): My Lords, I add my thanks think of it, from central government preventing them to the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, for the report and finding local solutions, unleashing energy and harnessing for giving a good profile to this issue, which I think has the creativity of their own areas. faded a bit in recent months—not surprisingly, with I welcome the fact that some local tax-raising is the attention being on Brexit. There have been myriad mentioned in the report. However, until locally elected reports from organisations that have been working to representatives—whether they be mayors, councillors promote greater devolution to cities. The spotlight has or leaders of combined authorities—can raise their GC 47 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 48

[BARONESS JANKE] progress. Massive housing provision is now being added money and be accountable for it, borrow money to the business communities there, and that will add to locally and raise taxes to pay for it, we are seeing only its success. a delegation from central government and not true When I was Transport Secretary and planning HS2, devolution. I very much welcome the report and hope I visited the Chinese Transport Minister in Beijing that it is a long stride on the road to what I see as real because China has more high-speed rail than the rest devolution. of the world put together. The Chinese were trying to In my city of Bristol, we have five mayors over the persuade me to buy Chinese technology for the building whole combined authority, which the public sometimes of our high-speed line, which I said was a bit premature find quite difficult to understand. With accountability because we had this thing called Parliament, which must come clarity of roles, transparency of powers and had to agree to all the plans before we could do it. A the recognition that one elected individual, although senior British businessman in China said to me, “You have they may be accountable to government, cannot be to understand, Andrew, that R&D in China stands for the only person accountable to the people. The big ‘rob and duplicate’”. I have always thought public responsibilities of education, social care, the environment policy is very straightforward: it is rob and duplicate, and all the services that underpin the least well off, cannot but you have to know what to rob and duplicate—what be managed by only one person. They must have a to copy. It is a very good rule of thumb that what one properly accountable team, enabling decisions to be should do if one is looking at urban policy and the taken to provide the resources to provide that. As development of big infrastructure is to rob and duplicate many organisations have said, not least Core Cities, of as closely as possible from the schemes which the which I used to be a member, the enormous power to noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, has developed over the the economy that our cities could give, the pride of years, and then one cannot go wrong. ambition, the feeling of recognition by people in those areas that they are not secondary to London and do For the leader of any city to look at and understand not see all the money going back there, is essential the story of Docklands is the best possible initiation in and, I believe, will motivate people. The noble how to plan a great city—the noble Baroness just Lord, Lord Heseltine, goes into this, too, in his report. referred to Bristol. One could go through the big “Breathing life into devolution” is essential, and I challenges of all the major cities in England, and the totally agree that we need government confidence to noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, has in many ways laid a take this forward. The only way that unleashing local path that others should follow. energy will really happen is if there are real powers—if On the recommendations of the report, which the people feel that they are in the driving seat and have a noble Lord summarised in his speech, I agree with say and, if they do not agree, can throw people out. them all. I agree with a department for the regions, I am very encouraged by the noble Lord’s report government offices outside London being brought and hope that we are going to advance further on this together and Select Committees on devolution, whether agenda. I look forward to seeing the effect, which I they be joint or individual—I do not think it matters. I believe will be transformational. am very struck by the fact that the Select Committee efforts of your Lordships’ House are overwhelmingly 5.23 pm focused on Europe. That is a very worthwhile thing for them to have focused on, but they should be much Lord Adonis (Lab): My Lords, the report of the more engaged in the life of the domestic departments, noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, is excellent, and if we were and having a Select Committee on devolution would not wasting our time on Brexit, as a country we be a good step forward. would be getting on with implementing a lot of the recommendations he has put forward. What stands The annual report on cities, benchmarking them out so strikingly from the noble Lord’s career is that against their competitors abroad, is a great idea. Bringing he not only exhorts us with his great reports, but by his police commissioners together with mayors is an absolute example. To my mind, the noble Lord is one of the two no-brainer. It is ridiculous to have these two great public most effective Ministers that this country has produced services being managed in cities by two different elected in the last generation, the other being Roy Jenkins. It public officials. Perhaps the Minister can tell us the is very fitting that we are debating the noble Lord’s Government’s thinking on that, because it would be a report in this Room this afternoon and, in the other very simple and straightforward reform that could be Chamber, we are debating until a late hour the extension transformational. Pressure on skills and strengthening of rights in respect of abortion and equal marriage to the role of mayors is also important. Making business Northern Ireland, which in many ways is the completion support equivalent to the best business support provided of Roy Jenkins’s work. His work will live on long after internationally, again, is a no-brainer. The remarks of him, and nowhere more so than his own example in the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, are very pertinent in how to create a city; the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, this respect. Essentially we have reinvented our business substantially created modern London with the creation support networks every 10 years, when what we should of Docklands, which was a phenomenal achievement. do is tie them very closely to our city institutions. I Docklands employs more people now than it did in think chambers of commerce should be the basis—that the docks in the 1960s. It is the powerhouse not only of is another of the noble Lord’s themes going back over the London economy but in many ways of our national many years. With respect to rob and duplicate, we economy. As an exercise in both economic and should just have a chamber of commerce system like infrastructure planning and sheer vision, it was a the Germans. It is not complicated—we could just get phenomenal achievement. Docklands is still a work in on and do it. GC 49 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 50

In all these respects, the noble Lord’s report is right. I had a lot more to say, but I have run out of time. But always focusing on practical objectives is the big In concluding, I want to make one remark about the thing. One of the biggest crises that we face in most of mayors. It is hugely important that the mayors have a our cities is communities, and in many of our cities, it lot of clout in London. The Mayor of London has is housing—the remarks by the noble Baroness, clout in London by definition, because he is located in Lady Warwick, were extremely pertinent in this regard. London, but mayors from outside, by definition, will We need the combination of strong leadership, which not have the same clout which comes from geographical is where the mayors come in, and much greater powers. proximity. However, when the time comes to reform As the Minister knows, I am always constructive, even your Lordships’ House—in the great constitutional when dealing with the Government, most of whose crisis we are engaged in at the moment, it may be work I profoundly disagree with. However, there is quite soon—it is high time we move towards a federal one thing that the Theresa May Administration have second Chamber. The big issue in creating a federal done in the field of local government which I strongly structure for the United Kingdom has always been support: the lifting of the borrowing cap for social how you deal with England. A key element in dealing housing. My Government failed to do it, as did the with England, following on from the noble Lord’s Cameron Government, but it has happened now. Can report, is that the mayors of our great cities and city the noble Lord give a progress report on what has regions should play a part. As part of that, like the happened since the borrowing cap was lifted? Has it Bundesrat in Germany—the German second Chamber unleashed a new wave of investment? What is happening which represents the states—the senate should represent on the ground? This is a huge opportunity for mayors the cities, city regions and nations of the United and local authorities to get on with what needs to be a Kingdom. Having the mayors as members would be a new generation of social home building after a generation big step forward. where there has been practically none, dealing with the huge social crisis that we have in many of our cities. 5.32 pm I will quickly highlight three other points. On the “rob and duplicate” principle, urban policy in most of Lord Inglewood (Non-Afl): My Lords, like other the rest of England is not too complicated if you speakers I begin by congratulating my noble friend on look at what is required in city leadership. The “rob his report, not only for what he concludes but for the and duplicate” principle should be, to be very blunt, to way in which he has described the journey he made in copy London, the city where we have developed the getting to those conclusions. most successful models and institutions of leadership Before going on, I should declare an interest. I am and powers, certainly over the last generation and in chairman of the Cumbria Local Enterprise Partnership; many ways going back to the London County Council I have represented the area I live in in the European and the Greater London Council in the 1880s and Parliament and have chaired a number of businesses 1890s. there. This is relevant to what I am going to say, because I am sympathetic towards and a supporter of London has been the leader. The strongest city in my noble friend’s concerns, but I will focus for a this country has also had the strongest and most moment on places such as Cumbria, which are not in a credible institutions, and we need to extend the model city or its direct economic and social hinterland. This of those institutions to other cities. The great problem is because I do not want them to fall between the gaps with the mayors outside London, whom the noble which the project, as described by the noble Lord, Lord quite rightly champions, is that they have only a might lead to. fraction of the powers of the Mayor of London. They First, I go back to cities. I spent 10 years in the have none of the powers of the Mayor of London in European Parliament about 20 years ago. I was struck respect of public transport, such as the capacity to then by the vigour and profile of the great European integrate transport or regulate buses. Buses are hugely cities when set in contrast to our cities. They seemed to important in cities up and down the country. Far more have an identity and confidence which went beyond people travel on buses, particularly lower-paid people, that of the country in which they were situated. What than on trains. Twice as many people each year travel struck me at the same time was that when the European on buses as trains. The average bus fare outside of political institutions made overtures to the great cities London is twice the level within London, although of this country such as Newcastle, Manchester and wages are much lower. Levels of regulation are much Liverpool, they appeared to be rebuffed by the United lower. My noble friend is nodding her head. Kingdom Government in London. I think the reason When I was in Newcastle recently—I travel on for that was a fear of some kind of independent buses wherever I go because it is quite an important supranational attribute that might be generated by way of seeing what is going on—I noted that one-third participating in all this. of bus fares there are still cash fares, which takes ages This is a matter that does not really concern the to load buses. The average cash fare, from memory, is younger generation, given that they are so much less £2.50. In London, it is £1.50. London abolished cash worried by matters of nationality and jurisdiction. For fares, as it has electronic ticketing, five years ago. The them, Berlin, Lisbon, Munich, Madrid and Milan are big cities outside London are literally a generation simply places to go to and places where football is apart in terms of technology, level of service and played. I do not know whether any of your Lordships regulation. I cannot think of anything more important noticed but, during the recent UEFAChampions League for mayors to get involved in than buses, houses and final in Madrid, everybody went to Madrid, not to giving them the powers. Spain. GC 51 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 52

[LORD INGLEWOOD] are in the middle of a revolution and so things are going In some ways, perhaps the most prominent of all to have to change. The question is how. The experience cities in Europe is London; it is, after all, one of the we have had in this country appears to suggest that we great global cities. For many people from abroad, it is tend to start with structures but that that will not almost a detail that London is in this country. The necessarily lead to a successful result. I sense that we point of London is that it is a global city and one of are seeing the beginning of a change of approach: we the financial capitals of the world. As an aside, we are starting with function. If we can change the place ought to be aware that in this age of telecommunications, in the system of governance where decisions are made— the financial centre can move from London just as the and make sure that changing it does not merely mean centre of European finance moved to this country decentralisation by moving Whitehall somewhere else from the Low Countries in the late 17th and early but moves decision-making nearer to those who will 18th centuries; indeed, it moved there from southern be affected—that will encourage participation and Germany and northern Italy. We should not take for civic pride in the communities that are going to benefit. granted any of the characteristics which are successful If we can do that, it will in turn generate dynamism, in this country. We should remember that the vanished regrowth and prosperity and will encourage able people pomps of yesterday are, from all walks of life to become engaged. “one with Nineveh and Tyre!” In the north, we see that the Government are now It seems to me that during the 20th century our trying to re-engage through their Northern Powerhouse 11, great cities lost the domestic, commercial and political as opposed to the Northern Powerhouse Partnership, provincial dynamism—and I use the word “provincial” to which Cumbria LEP is fully committed as a full in an approving and not disparaging sense—that created partner. The very different members of the group have Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle and Glasgow. We very different contributions and have a different emphasis can see this elsewhere in the world, including in China, on what they do. Nevertheless, it is an important which, whatever its other problems, displays dynamism. initiative in which I hope that all those engaged, from Where there is such dynamism, there is civic pride, energy the smallest to the largest, will be treated equally, in and commitment. That is what made these cities great the same way that Austria and Germany sit on the in the past, as can be seen by looking at what remains. European Council as equals. The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, is quite right to want Changes appear to be happening, and they are to re-instil this into our country, but it has to be happening incrementally.It may well turn out that change recreated; it cannot happen by itself. It is no good to of this sort will be more successful than the imposition declare ourselves optimists and assume that that will of structures from outside, from Whitehall. Form follows lead to a better tomorrow. There has to be substance, function, and if functions change then I believe that vision and detail to enable us to get there. the appropriate form will follow and change with it. I As I said in my opening remarks, this is not for hope the report by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, is everywhere. In particular, there are two areas we need an important milestone on the road to rebalancing the to consider in this context. First, in this country there ways in which things are done in England. are a number of large but nevertheless smaller cities, relatively speaking. I am thinking of places such as 5.40 pm Preston and Bolton, which are in the solar system of Lord Haselhurst (Con): My Lords, I find myself great metropolitan cities but tend to be overshadowed echoing the words of the right reverend Prelate in by their bigger neighbours. They are proud places and saying that I have no interest that I can declare. My they offer a lot of potential. pathway in politics includes no inside experience of Secondly, there are areas such as my own, Cumbria, local government and I therefore feel that I can speak which is sometimes described as the north of the on its structure without prejudice although, many north. It has half the land mass of north-west England, people might feel, without sufficient knowledge. is at the centre of Britain and has a population of I was born and brought up in South Yorkshire. I about half a million. It is not part of the economic lived for a large part of my life in the city of Birmingham system of any of the great metropolitan cities but is in the immediate postwar years. In the House of nevertheless affected by them, and by Scotland. I Commons I represented a seat in Greater Manchester would like to put on record that the development of and subsequently, for much longer, a seat in rural the Borderlands growth deal is an important initiative Essex. Over those years I have gained certain impressions because, while we are all in the United Kingdom, England that have led me to feel extremely well disposed to the and Scotland are different countries. This initiative report by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine. transcends the border, and there are not very many I became the prospective candidate for the constituency that do. In Cumbria, we look to the north of England, of Middleton and Prestwich. At the time, as one had London and Europe, which is, at least for now, very time in those days, I actually read the Redcliffe-Maud important for our domestic market. Independent analysis report. I thought it made a good deal of sense and was carried out by the LEP shows that the impact of easy to understand, whereas I found myself dealing no-deal Brexit will be very serious indeed, as was with a constituency containing two boroughs and one corroborated by a separate piece of work carried out urban district overseen by a county council. I began to by the CBI. understand then the confusion of local taxpayers about One aspect of the report that I found most interesting who did what, a confusion that survives to the present was the chapter written by Tony Travers, outlining the day. That was a structure that led in democratic politics history of local government. Things change as the world to a blame game in which the people who were changes and, as a number of speakers have said, we dispossessed of their seats in an election accorded the GC 53 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 54 blame to members of another authority who had 5.47 pm apparently acted out of step with what they felt was right. I am afraid that that attitude also survives to the Baroness Quin (Lab): My Lords, I too congratulate present time. the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, on his report and on the strong commitment shown to our regions and The next lesson that I learned was about people’s cities over many years. He began his remarks with a passion over boundaries. I was amazed by the extent reference to Brexit. Since he mentioned that subject, I to which people would fight and scrap over whether congratulate him on his stance on that as well, with one particular neighbourhood should be this side of a which I strongly agree. border or the other. When reforms were introduced by the Heath Government, in which I think the noble I have an interest to declare in that I am chair of Lord, Lord Heseltine, would have been involved, all Tyne and Wear museums, which is largely local authority three local authorities in my then constituency wanted funded and now rather oddly finds that half the area it to be in a different local government organisation, and covers is in a combined authority and half is not, all succeeded in getting their position changed. That which is a strange situation. Certainly, given the was the level of criticism that they felt about any importance of our wonderful museums and the culture reform, and I suspect that there is deep conservatism sector to local and regional economic regeneration, attached to all sorts of changes that are now introduced. this is a role I am very strongly attached to. The underlying argument behind reform that has I was struck by the debate in this Room some time taken place at various times was size, on the basis that ago on the order to create the North of Tyne combined bigger was better. In terms of efficiency that is probably authority. I very much agreed with the comments made correct, but there was also a feeling that more people would by my noble friend Lord Beecham on that occasion, be drawn into standing for office in local government and by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle, if there were really worth-while decisions to make. I do who said that, not think that hope has been particularly borne out. “nobody … will feel that this is anything like a sufficient answer People’s civilian lives have become very much busier to the critical lack of investment in the north-east”.—[Official and they feel less able to devote time to the increased Report, 30/10/18; col. GC 116-17.] burden that applies to any elected council these days, I was sorry that there was not agreement on a proper which has made them turn away from the prospect. north-east combined authority, but I can understand The general trend towards enlargement has continued it. As my noble friend Lord Beecham said, in some and is of course in the Heseltine report. It is true that cases elected mayors were being foisted on areas that the smaller the units of local government, the more specifically voted against them. We were faced with a choice there can actually be said to be for people.However, very uneasy situation. I remain an unrepentant regionalist, I found, in what is a more mobile society, that people because I believe the regional structure suits the north-east would move into Essex from, say, Gloucestershire or better than anything else. However, I completely agree Wiltshire and then start complaining about the level of that one model does not fit all circumstances, and we services they were getting in the matters that interested have to look across the country at the spatial and them. There was almost a desire that a national standard economic realities of the situation. Indeed, that was a should be observed. phrase in the noble Lord’s report that struck me very strongly: the, My other impression is that there is a battle, or has been, between London and the provinces. I sympathise “need to reflect economic and spatial reality”. with what my noble friend Lord Hodgson said on that In the north-east, despite the fact that a regional subject. There are increasing concerns about the north/ assembly was voted down by a large majority some south divide, but I believe it is really about London years ago now, I believe that the need for a regional and the rest. The question is whether this problem can assembly and a regional structure is still very strong in be overcome best by a form of devolved government that part of the world. Perhaps I can take some comfort that emulates and rivals London. I am very sympathetic in the fact that, when the idea of a Welsh Assembly was to the idea that that is the way forward, however long first put forward in the 1970s, that was defeated with a it takes. majority that was rather similar to the one in the Based on experience to date, the combined authorities north-east referendum. Of course, the Welsh Assembly concept seems the most promising thrust in the direction was passed by a whisker in the successful referendum we need to go. These are early days. There is variation 20 years later,but now,as the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, between combined authorities, but nevertheless for the pointed out, it seems to be very firmly established and most part there is a common core of devolved powers, supported across Wales. which is also true in the other cities cited in the The regional campaign in the north-east was led by Heseltine report. On the basis of trying to borrow a group of people who campaigned on the theme of, from the best, it might be that we can perfect a model “Who wants a lot of useless extra politicians?”They were that would command wide acceptance on the basis of helped beyond their wildest dreams by a couple of it being proved how effective it can be. The test will be events: the announcement that the Scottish Parliament whether it will be easier to build houses, where these building was going to be 10 times more expensive than days one finds opposition from people who are themselves was first estimated—that happened during the campaign well housed, develop skills, improve transport, attract —and, secondly, when MP’s expenses were published. investment and better identify priorities. A challenge Many newspapers totted up the total amount claimed has been laid out for us extremely skilfully in my noble for staff, offices and so on, and made it look as though friend’s report. It is one we should not ignore. that was the huge amount of money that each MP was GC 55 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 56

[BARONESS QUIN] I shall conclude by mentioning my pride in Gateshead individually getting in their pockets. However,the north- council, and all the wonderful projects that it has east has a lot of economic cohesion, and I believe that fostered and encouraged—the Angel of the North, the a regional government and regional assembly would Gateshead Millennium Bridge, Sage Gateshead, the give it much-needed political clout, as well as allowing BALTIC Centre for Contemporary Art, the Gateshead it to address economic needs and build on its economic International Stadium and so on. It is an astonishing strengths. achievement which should be trumpeted; I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, that we need to recognise In many respects, where we are at the moment with when local authorities have achieved things and applaud the current combined authorities does not make sense. them for it. The Conservative businessman Sir John The main example I would give is that of transport. Hall, who is known to many people, described Gateshead When the metropolitan counties were originally created, council as a “public entrepreneur”. I thought that was the Tyne and Wear area wanted to have an integrated an excellent description. It seems to me that the report transport system, but that rather fell by the wayside published by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, will help with the abolition of the metropolitan counties. It to unleash that public entrepreneurship, and for that was not helped by policy decisions such as that of bus reason he deserves all our thanks. deregulation. We now seem further away from that integrated system than before. As the right reverend 5.56 pm Prelate and my noble friend mentioned, the Tyne and Wear metro system is desperately in need of investment. Lord Storey (LD): My Lords, like the noble Lord, When I travel on the Tube, as I do practically every Lord Heseltine, I believe in the importance of cities. I day when I am attending your Lordships’ House, I am look at the great northern cities of our country and at always struck by the amount of investment there has how they languished. They could have been the engine been, and how one normally needs to wait only a of growth for the whole country. Thanks to the noble minute for a train. I contrast that with the 12 or Lord and others, we now realise the importance of our 13 minutes that I regularly wait when I am trying to cities and our city regions. travel on the Tyne and Wear metro. My only consolation The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, reminded me of the is that, despite the failure to get agreement between Toxteth riots. My house was at the top of Lodge Lane. the north and south of the Tyne on the combined The riots were not about race; they were about policing. authority, there still seems to be a strong recognition Locals joke and say it took a riot for Margaret Thatcher by the local authorities concerned that co-operation to come to the city of Liverpool. She came, and the between them is vital. I hope that that willingness will noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, came with her. I was quite be translated into action. taken with Eric Sorensen, as I remember. I was also quite taken with the comments of the noble Lord, The noble Lord’s report has many recommendations Lord Heseltine, at another event I went to where he that I strongly support, including the creation of a central said, “I stood and looked at the Mersey from the Liver government department of the regions and combining Building with a glass of wine at the end of a difficult departmental work in the different regions in the kind of day wondering what had happened to this great city way that was very successful with the former government and what had gone wrong”. As I think he said, he offices. I think that the noble Lord is quite right to spent three days listening to people and then he put address structures at the centre as well as the need for some of those thoughts and ideas into practice. That new structures in the regions and localities of the listening is so important, as is having a vision about country.I agree with the proposal about Select Committees where you are going to go. and with the idea of a committee of combined authority I became leader of Liverpool, that great city, in 1998. mayors—and the necessary co-operation of the combined There were 99 councillors and we won 52 seats. The authorities with other bodies, whether it is the following year we won a further 10 and we won a further Environment Agency, Network Rail, or the other bodies nine the year after that. Trying to lead 71 Liberal that the noble Lord mentions in his report. Democrats was the hardest job in the world. I though, Some recommendations could work for some “What do I do here? Where do I go?”. I thought, authorities, but perhaps not the one that we currently “Why don’t I visit two cities which have had very have in North of Tyne. For that reason, I would not be difficult times and talk to the leadership?” I went to keen on strengthening the powers of the mayor until New York and Dublin. The mayors of those cities the boundaries are more satisfactory and we have a separately said exactly the same thing. They said it is more viable organisation in that area. I am also not about having a vision of where you want to go and totally convinced about the idea of combining the role confidence—I think an earlier speaker mentioned of mayor with that of the police and crime commissioner, confidence—and that even if the cupboard is bare you and I have some concerns about admission charges for should talk up your city and your region and then local cultural facilities. I think there are various ways count the number of cranes on the skyline. I did that, in which you can encourage donations which should but I soon realised that the structure of local government be looked at before charges. made it very difficult indeed. We had a committee structure. A decision would go the sub-committee, Finally, structures are important but trust and then it would go to the main committee, then it would leadership are also very important. Sometimes it is go to the performance review committee and then to quite difficult to decide what makes a successful authority the policy and finance committee and finally at the end in terms of leadership. We recognise it when it occurs, of a 10-week cycle it might come out of the sausage but it is not always easy to design it into a system. machine at the end. GC 57 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 58

New Labour was looking at the idea of the modernising The importance of cities to the national economy agenda for local government. In Liverpool, we embraced must never be forgotten. The challenge, as the noble that with an executive board, scrutiny panels and Lord, Lord Heseltine, points out, is that we need more councillors having a powerful role in their communities. of our cities to be successful. It should be not about Then the modernising agenda, which I think Hilary problems, but about solutions, wealth creation and Armstrong—the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong of entrepreneurship. Cities do not create jobs; they create Hill Top—brought in, meant that local authorities the conditions where jobs can be created and businesses could adopt it if they chose. can be successful. We need to devolve sufficient powers I probably agree with everything on the 10-point or and policy, because we continue to live in a very 20-point plan, with a few little changes here and there, centralised society. but what is perhaps missing from it is this. You can Professor Parkinson also talked about the noble Lord, have all the vision and powers in the world, but if you Lord Heseltine, as I have. He said, “Trust the people”. do not have the quality of the leadership it does not They deserve nothing more. happen. One of the proposals is that the mayors should, 6.04 pm “establish a leadership academy for city governance”. Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB): My Lords, I That is crucial. congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, not only Secondly, and I do not think the noble Lord, on the content of his report but its presentation, which Lord Heseltine, will agree with me completely on this, makes it a pleasure to read. I should not have been it is about accountability. Noble Lords will recall that surprised about that latter aspect because he has access the Localism Act allowed local authorities to establish to a good firm of printers. elected mayors. Of the 10 that had a vote, only one— I take part in this debate with diffidence. Unlike my Bristol—decided to have a mayor. Doncaster decided noble friend Lord Turnbull, I never served in a local to retain its mayor. In Liverpool, we never had the government department, and I lack the local knowledge opportunity to vote on whether to have a mayor. that so many of today’s speakers have shown, but there I think there was an agreement between the city leader are some aspects of my experience in government which and the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, to establish a bear on the report by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine. mayor in Liverpool. I regret that, because it would First, from my experience, I confirm that you cannot have given more strength and power to the mayor of make things happen in local areas from a desk in Liverpool. Whitehall. The second thing I am sure the noble Lord is right about is that the best way to get something Accountability means that you have to listen to done is to make an identified person on the ground people. It is very alarming that the scrutiny panel in accountable for making it happen and give that person Liverpool has been abolished by the mayor. There is the necessary powers and resources to do so. no scrutiny of his decisions. For example, it takes When I became Head of the Civil Service, I inherited 60,000 people to sign a petition to stop their park a programme of reform called “Next Steps”. Its essence being sold to Redrow developments. The mayor does was that the delivery of services—for example, issuing not want to listen to them , so they have to go to the passports or driving licences—was set up in the form High Court to get an injunction to stop that development. of an agency under a chief executive. The agency was That should not be the case. responsible to a Minister—it was not a quango—but I was very taken by the briefing, which perhaps all the chief executive was given a budget, which he or she noble Lords saw, from the London Assembly. It said: was empowered to use with wide discretion to achieve “London has made a success of devolution … Devolution objectives set by the Minister. Despite initial opposition works. It makes government more open, more accountable and by the Treasury, I believe that this structure not only more relevant to local voters”. raised the morale and the sense of responsibility of I agree. It also says that there needs to be overview and civil servants delivering services but produced a real scrutiny to be effective and hold the Executive to improvement in the quality of the services they gave to account to contribute to better public policy and the public. The same principle should be applied to decisions. To my mind, that is the other key element decisions about local infrastructure. Local people will we must never forget. We have a system of elected be the best judges of where infrastructure is needed. local councillors, and they need to have an important The million-dollar question—as shown in the chapter role in the work of the council as a whole. They should by Tony Travers—is how one gets the balance right not be there as sheep that just follow the leadership. between local services controlled locally and local They should have a clear role and be able to hold the services controlled centrally. There have to be some leader to account. locally delivered services that are controlled centrally. I went to the presentation of a book by Professor Social security is an obvious example. People think it Michael Parkinson from Liverpool University. At the unfair if the benefit received in one area differs from time of the Militant tendency in Liverpool, he wrote a that received in another. A difficult current example is book called Liverpool on the Brink. He has now written community care, where there are now complaints about a new book called Liverpool Beyond the Brink. The a postcode lottery following central government’s noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, was the guest of honour devolution of responsibility to local authorities. there. One of his great legacies will be not only the We should not disguise from ourselves the fact that huge contributions he has made to Liverpool: we now centralising pressures are very strong, not least because have the Heseltine Institute in Liverpool to carry on when voters are dissatisfied with the quality of their life, his work, which is hugely important. it is on central government that they wreak their revenge, GC 59 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 60

[LORD BUTLER OF BROCKWELL] Giving people greater control to shape their and then excessive centralisation demotivates local people. communities is a good thing. It makes decision-making That is the essence of the problem. Moreover, when more accountable, allows for local discretion and delivers responsibility for services is centralised, it leads to silos. better value for money. Councils, as leaders of their Those responsible for education policy become distant communities, are best placed to bring communities from those responsible for health policy, who are in turn together and transform lives for the better. Local distant from policing policy and so on. Yet on the ground, government already provides more than 800 different local problems—for example, drug dealing—often can be services to local communities, supporting residents dealt with only by a combined effort from all these services. each and every day. As well as supporting vulnerable What does this amount to in relation to the proposals and elderly residents, councils also help build vibrant in the report by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine? I local economies that create the conditions for businesses support the proposal for more combined authority and communities to prosper. mayors with greater powers and resources delegated to Frankly, councils continue to do a great job, but them. I like the idea of delegating to them responsibility local government is ambitious to do more and can do for affordable housing, schools’ performance, the skills more. Give councils the freedom to decide, certainly budget and unemployment programmes. I also like the over the future and new funding, and local government idea of the requirement for each of them to produce will build great communities. I welcome the report of five-year strategic programmes for their regions.However, the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine. Importantly, it supports like my noble friend Lord Turnbull, I am sceptical the LGA’s case that we have an opportunity for change, about the proposal in the noble Lord’s report for a super so that the most centralised country in the western -department of the regions on the lines of the Department world, which we are, could become more devolved. of Trade and Industry and the Department of the Environment in the 1970s. Such a department, combining As the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, and the LGA responsibility for planning, local government, housing, both recognise, we need to empower local leaders to transport and employment, would be too cumbersome deliver better outcomes for their communities. That is for a single Secretary of State, as the experience of the why the Government must show more ambition than 1970s showed. they have done to date. The combined authorities have However, like my noble friend Lord Turnbull, I demonstrated the real, tangible benefits of devolution, strongly support the reinstatement of collocated regional but the combined authority model does not suit everyone. offices led by a single official. In 1994, when my noble We need a flexible devolution settlement that all areas friends Lord Wilson and Lord Turnbull were successively of England can get behind so that no part of our Permanent Secretaries at the DoE and the noble Lord, country is left behind. Put simply, if we are to tackle Lord Heseltine, was President of the Board of Trade, the challenges and seize the opportunities, we need a structure of regional offices was established, containing devolution to be made available right across England, representatives of a wide range of Whitehall departments. including to non-metropolitan areas as well as to our The aim was that they should work together with local great cities. government in co-ordinating the central government At its conference in Bournemouth earlier this responsibilities for which they were responsible to make month, the LGA launched its manifesto for change, the most effective impact on local problems. In my view, #CouncilsCan. As the LGA’s new chairman, Councillor which my noble friend Lord Turnbull shared, it was a James Jamieson said in his speech to the conference, great mistake when in 2011, as part of the austerity this manifesto is a bold call to arms asking the programme, those local offices of central government Government for the powers, freedoms, flexibilities and were abolished. funding to deliver great communities. With the I believe that the outgoing Prime Minister cares Government absorbed by responding to the demands about the matters covered in this report. Sadly, of EU exit for the foreseeable future, there will not be preoccupation with Brexit and, I suspect, an innate capacity at the national level to negotiate individual caution have prevented anything effective being done devolution deals. A new localism settlement is needed, in the past three years. The resolution of Brexit, which a step change in the way we think about devolution we all profoundly hope for—by which I mean resolution that looks to a package of sustainably funded, locally of the question of whether we go or stay—together led service reform. #CouncilsCan sets out a positive with the arrival of a new Prime Minister, offer a fresh case for a new localism settlement underpinned by a opportunity. The leading candidate for the post of devolution Bill and a local government finance Bill in Prime Minister, whatever his other characteristics, has the next Queen’s Speech. Of course, by closing the the ability to enthuse and inspire. The noble Lord’s £8 billion funding gap facing councils by 2025, the report provides the fertile field on which enthusiasm spending review can deliver financial certainty to hard- and inspiration can flower, together with a number of pressed councils up and down the country. very useful practical proposals. It is important to the future of our country that the new Prime Minister It is not just the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, and takes advantage of it. the LGA who are making the case for devolution. I am pleased to say that the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Reform, Decentralisation and Devolution, of which 6.11 pm I am co-chair, is bringing together parliamentarians Baroness Eaton (Con): My Lords, I declare my interest and those working on public service reform to look in local government as a Local Government Association into these issues and build cross-party support for the vice-president. I add my thanks to the noble Lord, new devolution settlement the country needs, from a Lord Heseltine, for initiating this very interesting debate. devolved and integrated approach to skills and careers GC 61 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 62 to a revolution in broadband and transport infrastructure, We need the regions to be able to come here and from reform of the common agricultural policy to the exert direct influence on the Westminster Government. future of local industrial strategies. Our group is asking If that process could be furthered, we could reform a the big questions and helping form the big ideas that lot of these top-down reforms and all this ordering will ensure that the LGA’s new devolution settlement about, especially the dependence of local authorities becomes reality. In recent years, the pace of devolution on central government for finance,and so on. For example, has slowed. We need to bring our focus back to this we could allow different regions to have different tax agenda and realise the long-held promise of devolution. systems. As was mentioned, we have an unreformed This means devolution to all areas of the country, with council tax system, because although house prices bespoke arrangements that give us postcode choice, as have risen, we have not revalued those houses. That I much prefer to say rather than postcode lottery. was the crisis on which the poll tax was created. If I bring my remarks to a close by noting that the different regions could revise their local house prices noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, and organisations such as in the way that they like, that would in some cases the LGA, have provided us with a roadmap to achieve relieve their financial problems. the goal of devolved services. I commend them for I do not want to go on because I am the 19th speaker this. I also support those local leaders, represented and people must be getting pretty tired by now. We through the LGA, who are calling on our new Prime need to crack the problem of over-centralisation without Minister to use the next Queen’s Speech, Budget and devolution in England. If we can tackle that, we shall spending review to deliver a new localism settlement. I make a lot of progress. hope the Minister and the Government will act on their advice, thereby ensuring we renew our efforts to 6.23 pm empower communities through local government. Lord Stunell (LD): My Lords, it is a great delight to take part in this debate and to have listened to the 6.18 pm energy and passion that the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, Lord Desai (Lab): My Lords, I join other noble still brings to this, decades after he first started his Lords in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine. work. Of course, it is not just the reports; it is a record He has tirelessly worked on decentralisation and the of success, not just in London but, in particular, in improvement of urban life in this country and this is Liverpool. As somebody who represented a constituency another a great step. He started by saying that we are in the north-west—in Greater Manchester—I am well in a constitutional crisis. I shall take up that theme aware of the breath of fresh air that he brought to the because, as my noble friend Lord Adonis said, a crisis whole region by his work and the commitment he is also a time of opportunity. The crisis is the crisis of showed there. Brexit. To make a long story short, I believe that Brexit When we look at the pattern of devolution activity is an English crisis. It is because England is the only in the United Kingdom, it is very much something non-devolved region in the union, because we are one that a new Government do for their first three years, of the most centralised administrations in the world, and then it peters out. In 1997 the incoming Labour as the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, and other noble Government proceeded vigorously,with Liberal Democrat Lords said, and because the other places are devolved and other support enthusiastically given, with Scottish that England faces the full burden of centralisation. and Welsh devolution. However, their reforming rather That is why we have created mayors, combined authorities sputtered out when it got to the north-east regional and so on. The power to decide what they can do and referendum, and not a lot happened on that for another what they will have by way of money is very much in 10 years. In 2010, there was a three-year burst of Whitehall. You may want to decentralise by putting activity by the coalition Government. I must admit Whitehall ministries all over the country, but the power that after two and a half or three years, that petered will still remain in Whitehall. Therefore, one of the out as well. I will say something about the Localism issues to tackle would be how we can devolve and Act and its implications in a moment. decentralise England. Time after time, after the initial burst of activity, That is what I want to speak about, because I Governments take fright. Avoidance of mistakes becomes believe it is a challenge. My link is going to be reform more important than promotion of change and of the House of Lords, which is one of my hobbies. regimentation becomes more important than innovation. The last time we had a House of Lords Reform Bill we The simplicity of imposing national norms trumps the had a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament complexity of having local solutions for local challenges. but the Bill came to nothing, for reasons that I will not The antithesis of the devolution of power is the one- go into. However, at that time I submitted a note to the size-fits-all event, which freezes the reform process. Joint Committee saying that what we needed was the I shall give an apparently irrelevant anecdotal example three devolved regions, plus England being carved up of exactly that. Running through my old constituency into 10 regions, each sending 30 elected representatives of Hazel Grove is the A6. At the time I am talking to the reformed House of Lords. Each region would about, it was a trunk road with a terrible accident send those 30 representatives on a list system, so that record, particularly at one junction controlled by traffic MPs would not feel threatened that in their constituencies lights.The solution seemed obvious—to have a right-hand they had rival representatives. The House of Commons filter on the A6—but that was impossible because could remain the House of Commons, and the House somebody in Whitehall had decided that the criteria of Lords could be changed into a federal Chamber. were not met. Accident after accident occurred. Petitions, The idea was that some of the representatives would debates and all sorts of representations failed to produce be mayors, for example. an answer. An answer came eventually when the A6 was GC 63 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 64

[LORD STUNELL] My final point is that I detect a lingering hankering detrunked and became the responsibility of the local after the creation of a uniform system of equal powers highways authority,which promptly installed a right-hand and competencies. History and all the evidence and filter traffic, since when the accident record has been experience show that diversity and pluralism are more very good. likely to produce better outcomes for local communities I hope to make the point by a simple anecdote that than a centralised system and structure. I wish the the idea that people behind desks 200 miles away have report well and I hope very much indeed that it is the solution to local problems is completely mistaken. taken forward in large measure by whoever turns out That brings me to the Localism Act. I was one of two to be the next Prime Minister but, bearing in mind Ministers in the other place who steered the Localism that it is something that will happen only in the first Act on to the statute book. I will not speak a great three years of a fresh Government, perhaps we might deal about it, but I will pick out just two further not hold our breath. snapshots. One is about neighbourhood plans. The planning system in this country consists far too much 6.31 pm of a two-stage process where developers propose and Lord Horam (Con): My Lords, I was born in Preston— the community opposes. Neighbourhood planning is proud Preston, I say to my noble friend Lord Inglewood designed to be the community proposing and the —in Lancashire, went to school in Wakefield in Yorkshire developer delivering. It has so far been surprisingly and in my first incarnation in the House of Commons successful—surprising even to me, never mind the civil was Member of Parliament for Gateshead, so I am a servants who thought it was preposterous.Neighbourhood fully paid-up northerner and therefore inevitably, to planning areas are self-defining, a theme that I want to some extent, a regional policy junkie. I even managed pick up in a second or two. Funnily enough, it has to persuade the good burghers of Orpington, who I resulted in more homes being designated for planning, later represented in Parliament, that it had some merits not fewer. When the community has the chance, it as an approach to policy. shows the responsibility necessary. I too pay my respects and send some gratitude to My second brief example is local enterprise the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, for his lifelong partnerships. One very small flaw in the report of the championing of regional policy. No one will ever noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, is that he refers to LEPs as forget his intervention in Liverpool after the Toxteth conforming to government boundaries. That is exactly riots. I am sure, as he will understand, that he is not not the case: they were self-identifying and have a wide quite on a par in the Liverpool pantheon with Bill variety of configurations, from the 10 unitary authorities Shankly, but none the less there is still a great deal of of Greater Manchester as one LEP to Cornwall County respect and affection for him in Liverpool. Of course, Council and the Isles of Scilly as another. They are of as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, pointed out, there all sizes and shapes. They are not limited to the then was also his work in the Docklands. existing regional structures. On the Midlands and Collectively, I am afraid, for Governments over the south-east England boundary, one LEP crosses three years, Labour or Conservative, the results of regional pre-existing regions. They have been bafflingly successful policy are very mixed indeed. There are, as the noble in many cases. Lord, Lord Turnbull, pointed out, vast improvements The idea of leaving it to local organisations to decide in the city centres of our big cities, but too often there how to organise themselves stunned the bureaucratic are long strands of dreary suburbs and sad small mind. Devolution is about treating people as grown-ups, towns that have lost their purpose. There is still far too capable of making good choices, not treating them great a gulf between London and the extremities of like three year-olds who cannot be trusted with a bag the United Kingdom. of sweets. Power must move down to localities because I go to Germany quite often and, remembering that there are get better outcomes when it does: the A6 kills it started from what it calls “Stunde Null”—ground zero fewer people. When you have neighbourhood plans, —when it was a mountain of rubble, what it has done you get more homes. I thoroughly applaud the report’s in the intervening period is remarkable. It also went analysis and strongly support the many recommendations through the refrigeration of East Germany for part of in it that can lead to stronger and more effective local that time. Going from Stralsund in the north to Munich democratic leadership and economic growth. in the south, there is a much greater sense of modernity and equality between the various cities and towns. However, I have some queries. First, what use would I welcome the report from the noble Lord, a regional government office for the north-west be? It Lord Heseltine, which is another brave, considered did not help with the A6 problem. We have to be clear stab at doing better next time. First, I totally agree about whether we are talking about devolution or with the need to have someone in charge. Historically, decentralisation. An idle regional office will be very the model is Joe Chamberlain in 19th-century much more tempted to meddle in combined authorities Birmingham, but now we have Andy Street, Andy and mayoral activities than the present fragmented Burnham, Ben Houchen in Teeside and so forth. I structure in central government. hope that they can become the model for a new period My second point is that I am puzzled by a wish to of dynamic mayors. As the noble Lord also said, we synchronise elections, thus maximising the risk of need drive at the centre to match up the drive at the catastrophic discontinuities in taking local strategic regional and city level. He was such a person when he decisions and direction. Maybe this May’s local elections was in government. I served with him in the Cabinet are an illustration of what can happen when that Office and well understood the drive he put into it so happens. successfully. That is essential. GC 65 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 66

The second thing is skills. We have lots of graduates Lord Turnbull, put his finger on it when he said that it with lots of skills but we do not have enough non- will not happen unless we change Whitehall’s view graduates with plenty of skills. As the noble Lord, that it is superior in every way to local government Lord Layard, pointed out in a debate the other day on and local public bodies. Having spent 10 years as a apprenticeships, secondary education and further Minister espousing the Whitehall supremacy philosophy, education, we need a way through, an uncapping of I recognise the challenge that we face if we are to see the further education side of our educational system changes. As the noble Lord, Lord Butler, pointed out, so that it is on a par with university education, which centralising pressures in this country are very strong. we have done so well in. Until further education Most pressure groups are nationally based and put becomes an equal and sensible course, we will not get huge pressure on Ministers to intervene and make sure the skills we need in our non-academic young people. there is no variation at the local level. Infrastructure is the third thing. Of course we need The noble Lord, Lord Butler, mentioned social the right things in transport, housing and so on, but care. Health and social care are the areas for which we must not forget the value of cultural spending in I had the most responsibility. The noble Lord, our regional and city developments. Who can deny the Lord Heseltine, did not mention health and social care impact of Frank Gehry’s Guggenheim Museum in in his speech, save, I think, in relation to the “condition Bilbao? It was transformative and an example of how of the people report”, which he wants mayors to sensible and frankly gigantic spending has reaped publish and which would have stats on health, social rewards on a massive scale. All this will cost money, care and well-being. The National Health Service presents but as Paul Johnson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies in a nutshell some of the dilemmas about what we pointed out in a very good article in the Times the mean by devolution. The NHS is a huge employer. It week before last, there is at the moment a particular has major responsibilities for the health of a population space for more public spending. After seven or eight and has links to R&D investment, life sciences and the years, the deficit is now quite low, thank heavens, pharmaceutical sector. It is crucial to our economy. although the national debt is high. Interests rates are Any mayor must want to embrace health and social extraordinarily low and will remain low over the next care in any development plan they have; they would be two or three years as a result of the Bank of England’s very foolish not to do so. On the other hand, we know term funding scheme. We can therefore increase public that the public regard the NHS as a national service. spending. We should do that much more than reducing We know that if we were to suggest the devolution of taxation which, particularly for the rich, is a very bad the NHS and that we could change it from being free idea at this time. The state needs every penny of at the point of use—that is the implication of devolution income to finance the expenditure we need not only in —there would be major opposition. We also know this area but in other areas as well, not only on that concepts such as postcode prescribing are deplored regional issues but on the police, social care and by the public, pressure groups and just about everyone. justice which have become underfunded. If we do that, If we think that devolution will really cover most of and if at the same time we look to devolving more our great services, we then come to the issue of how we powers to our city regions and to our cities, we will be would deal with the NHS. Greater Manchester has doing the right thing. If that shows that we are becoming made a start and it is a useful model. Interestingly, in more European, how ironic it is that on leaving Europe the report by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, the we should be becoming more European. I am afraid submission from Greater Manchester claims that health that whether we like it or not it is the right thing to do and social care was devolved in February 2015. In socially and economically as well as regionally. fact, nothing was devolved to Greater Manchester relating to health and social care. What happened was 6.37 pm that the responsibilities of the Department of Health Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, it is a and Social Care were delegated to Greater Manchester. great pleasure to wind up the Back-Bench speeches. I Greater Manchester has some responsibilities related am not sure whether the Whips are punishing me or to budget and some to operational management, but it rewarding me by giving me this position. Like every has to carry them out within the rules set by the noble Lord who has spoken, I welcome the report by Department of Health and Social Care. That seems a the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine.He analysed the historical very sensible first step because it maintains the concept role of cities in driving this country’s development and of a national NHS but gives the mayor and combined economy. If we compare English city regions to the authority more say over strategy and how it is to be devolved authorities, they have less clout and less run. If we extend this, it may well be that the national resource. Yet, if we are to make progress in very aspect of some services means that we cannot devolve difficult times the noble Lord is surely right that the them in a way that we could other parts of the economy. potential for city regions, like mine in the West Midlands, At PMQs today the Prime Minister answered a Question to help drive forward the economy of the country about the reconfiguration of services in Shropshire. It again is very powerful. brings home that, while devolution sounds great in I do not think that all noble Lords quite agree with principle and is a route worth taking, when it comes to the structure the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, proposed, actual services it will be hard to work through. with a very powerful department of the regions in I finish on a point raised by my noble friend Whitehall and mayors and combined authorities locally Lord Rooker. Of course the report by the noble Lord, that will take this forward, but I do not think we have Lord Heseltine, has no chance of implementation to agree with the structure to agree with his powerful unless there is a new financial settlement. The noble premise about the role of city regions. The noble Lord, Lord, Lord Lansley, rightly pointed out an example in GC 67 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 68

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] European international politics. I am deeply conscious Cambridgeshire of why greater flexibility is needed if that those who designed the European Economic we are to make sense of the combined authority there Community, Jean Monnet above all, believed that it and the huge potential for developing the economy would receive legitimacy by providing results and did that there clearly is. At one point in his report, the not need a whole complex of democratic accountability noble Lord, Lord Heseltine says, and scrutiny. We all know where that got us. It provided “the government should allow mayoral authorities to raise local results, but it did not achieve legitimacy. My worry taxes and charges”. about the strong mayor model, particularly without He then says, the scrutiny, is that we risk reaching that point of “it is ludicrous for British tourists to pay to visit historic collections continuing alienation among much of the population, and buildings abroad while millions of visitors to this country even though the effectiveness is there. enjoy free access”. As a number of speakers have said, we face a deeply I am so keen on this because we have the Commonwealth divided country, with deep regional inequalities and Games coming to Birmingham in 2022, and 75% of deep mistrust. The country has become increasingly the costs will be met by the Government and 25% by centralised over the last 40 or 50 years. The noble Lord, the City of Birmingham, whose finances are not as Lord Lansley, talked about the problem of Whitehall strong as one might wish. It would like to be allowed attitudes. They are also Westminster attitudes. When to set hotel tax to help contribute. I understand that my daughter was in the Department of Health, I Edinburgh will be allowed to go down this route. I remember being very struck when she said that most know that, traditionally, the Treasury will be opposed of her colleagues did not think it at all attractive to go to this, but, just as a pilot we ought to allow Birmingham up to York and visit the outstation of the department to have a go at it and see if it has an impact on tourism that was there. She was very happy to do so, because and hotel usage. If we are serious about devolution we she could come to Saltaire at the same time. should take a living example where a city council I also remember an astonishing conversation on needs to rate some resources and give it a go. I hope educational matters I had some weeks ago with a the Minister will at least be able to give some positive Minister. When I started in politics, the West Riding words on that. education authority was one of the best in the country. It did things that people in the rest of the country did 6.45 pm not and experimented with new attitudes.Now I represent Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, we have a music education charity of which I am a trustee. I all enjoyed this fascinating and detailed report. It has went with the heads of our education programme. formed the basis of a very worthwhile debate. I will I found myself having an argument with the Minister start, if I may, by looking at one or two of the tensions about the detail of initial musical education in primary within it—most of all, the tension between the mayor schools around the country. That is the extent of as a model for efficiency, leadership, effectiveness and centralisation. It is also whythe Department for Education regeneration and what the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, is much bigger than it needed to be in the 1960s. refers to in his conclusions as the need for this to be It is also, incidentally, why I am sceptical about the based on, need for the restoration of regional offices of central “our families, our schools, our communities, our social services”, government. If we have effective city government and so that government at all levels must work, regional government, we do not need central officials “in partnership with communities and businesses”, checking on them to ensure that they do the right and individuals. thing and do not put the filter light in on the A6, or That is part of the difficulty we have in Britain at whatever it may be. I am not sure whether the UK the moment. I was very struck by a long article in the Government need a large embassy in Edinburgh and Financial Times yesterday looking at those who voted Cardiff to keep watch on what they do. If we have for Brexit three years ago and who still feel left behind effective city and regional government, they ought to now—why they voted as they did and why they still be able to manage on their own. Whitehall officials feel immensely discontented not just with Brussels but can come up to visit them from time to time and learn with London. The article said that they are as much how well they are doing. against London as they are against Brussels. There is a The Heseltine model, which I on the whole approve sense of hopelessness, a fear that there are no decent- of, is a regional revival through concentration on the quality jobs, poor education, deeply inadequate skills cities as the hubs for regeneration. It is a far more training, obstacles getting to work and shrinking public substantial devolution than the Government have yet services. As a result, as they see less government—I been willing to accept of infrastructure, skills education certainly see this in Bradford—and as local government and training, land use, planning, industrial strategy et and local services shrink, ordinary, poor people have cetera, and partnership between political and private less and less contact with it. It is there in London, not sector leadership. providing you with local services which you see—or I shall focus on some of the obstacles we face in even with police whom you see, as community services reaching that excellent model. Let us recognise how deteriorate. much we have to change if we are to achieve that If we are going to restore confidence in democracy vision. First, there is finance, as several noble Lords and government, we must care about that as well as have said. There is the depth of cuts in local finance fundamental and essential regional regeneration, which and the shortage of resources. Local government in is the core of this report and with which I strongly agree. Bradford started with public sanitation in the early I have spent much of my career teaching and researching 1810s to 1820s. Last year, Bradford closed 42 of its GC 69 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 70

49 public toilets, so it is going out at the point where it The damage to confidence in democracy that has started. It also involved the provision of clean water. been done over the past two generations, inflicted by That is of course privatised and mainly owned by repeated reorganisation of local government and Australian and Canadian pension funds. Yorkshire increasing Whitehall interference, is a real problem Water is now in trouble because it is releasing raw sewage that we face in this country. We need a new settlement, into the wharf upstream from where people bathe. one that can be agreed between the parties and between We have lost our sense of control and some of our successive Governments. Devolution to city-led regions local private as well as public leadership. As I look is key, but is not enough on its own to restore confidence around the Aire Valley, where I live, I am conscious in democracy and close the gap between people in the that we have lost a lot of our small companies and that provinces and our governing elite. We desperately when new small companies develop—we had had two need action to narrow the gap between the prosperous in Saltaire 15 years ago—they get taken over by metropolis and the regions and cities outside the south- multinationals. Salts Mill is now owned by an American east. multinational. That means that we do not have the local industrial or financial leadership that we need to 6.57 pm help with the regeneration. The regional CBI and the Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op): My Lords, regional Institute of Directors represent the regional first, may I say how pleased I am to be able to respond branches of a large number of multinational firms. to this debate on a motion in the name of the noble That is a problem. Lord, Lord Heseltine? I commend the work he has done It is also a real problem with banks and the financial in this report and also over many years to empower sector. My father spent his career working for Barclays our great cities, support communities and enable them Bank dealing with funding for small companies and to face up to the challenges in our world. That is not to reporting to his local head office in a federal bank, as say that I agree with every word in the report; but, like it was organised. Banks are now very much national my noble friend Lord Rooker, I say that it is an and multinational and do not retain that link. We excellent report and an important contribution. There must rebuild a whole host of things that we have lost are many recommendations in the report that I fully at the local or regional level. We are about to lose EU agree with and would want to take further. structural funds. Perhaps I could persuade the Minister When he introduced the debate, the noble Lord to say a little about the shared prosperity fund, what talked about two cities. You could feel that you are he sees it doing and whether it will be entirely direct living in two different worlds, but actually be living from Whitehall or whether the regions will have some close by the other. In my own borough of Southwark, say in how it is distributed. That is of real concern to we have the very prosperous south of the borough, the less prosperous regions of England. Perhaps we which is a wealthy and nice place to live in, and we ought to begin to discuss whether financial equalisation now have a much more regenerated north of the across England is something that ought to be much borough. There are lots of tourists there and things more public and much more politically debated. When have improved dramatically in the last 20 or 30 years. I look at Germany, I am struck by how Finanzausgleich In other parts, though, in Walworth, Camberwell and is one of the things that is most bitterly argued between Peckham, the borough is still struggling and there are the different Länder—quite rightly, because the rich all sorts of problems in terms of drugs, knife crime areas do not like transferring funds to the poorer,although and housing. You really could be living in a different it is one of the things that has to be done within a world in the same borough, so that was a very important national community. Let us have that argument out in point that he made. the open rather more. Wehave it on the Barnett formula; I should also at this point declare that I am vice- we do not have it for the English regions. As the noble president of the Local Government Association—my Lord, Lord Horam, said, this is absolutely no time for usual declaration that I make on the numerous times tax cuts. What we need now is long-term investment. that I speak in this House. Among other things, I am a I am not entirely sure that city regions are the Londoner, as you can probably tell; but for many years answer and I am very struck that the noble Lord, I lived in Coventry, Leicester and Nottingham, so I Lord Lansley, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of know the east Midlands very well. It is a great place to Newcastle and others have suggested that larger regions live and needs to have power to be developed and to may in some ways be what we need. In Yorkshire move forward. As the noble Lord said in his introduction, we are stuck in our devolution with the Government such places have to be able to compete in a world that because, as the Minister will know, the majority of is changing at a pace unprecedented in our history.Things local authorities prefer a one Yorkshire model. The are moving so fast now; new technologies arrive in our Minister for the northern powerhouse is trying to country, become obsolete and then something else make us accept a three-city region model and a sort of moves in, whereas before, things used to never change. rural powerhouse—whatever that means; he could not We need to address this bigger picture to ensure that explain it—for north Yorkshire. A one Yorkshire model our great cities and institutions are fit for purpose. is preferred because our city regions overlap, the city I have raised several times in the House the issue of boundaries are very difficult to draw and that is what the combined authorities. We seem to be creating a suits the people in the region. I hope to hear a little confused patchwork for local government, and for me more from the Minister about whether there may that is not good. We need a sense of what is going on possibly be a little movement at some point on that, in each area and who is governing it. The noble Lord, although perhaps it will not be until we have a new Lord Lansley, mentioned the Cambridgeshire and Government. Peterborough Combined Authority, and I am conscious GC 71 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 72

[LORD KENNEDY OF SOUTHWARK] like it, but the world did not come to an end with a of the number of different bodies that potentially can Conservative Government in the UK, an SNP be involved in taxation and so on. Not too far away is Government in Scotland and a Labour Government Bedfordshire, which is a very different operation. We in Wales. Clearly, parties of different perspectives can need to understand how places are governed. Perhaps work together and function. We need some broader the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, does not agree with me thinking they are about where we are in England. My on that but it is my view, and the report gives some noble friend Lady Quin talked about what we do there welcome structure to the combined authority model. as well. My noble friend Lord Beecham made a point about There is also the point about bringing the heads of the sums of money made available by the Government the combined authorities together with the Prime Minister to the combined authorities, and I agree that they are and the Chancellor. That would give a good focus, but still quite small sums of money over 30 years or so. If if that happened, it should be expanded to some of any of the suggestions made by the noble Lord, our bigger cities, such as Nottingham, Derby or Leicester, Lord Heseltine, are to be taken up by the Government, where the mayor there, Sir Peter Soulsby, makes a big much greater sums of money will have to be made contribution. Getting them wired into the policy challenges available. If we contrast the money presently available and the policy solutions nationally would be a good with the money that has been lost to local government thing to do. since 2010, we see that there is a huge gap. I agree with the point made by the noble Lord, I very much liked the idea of looking at what goes Lord Butler of Brockwell. If we want something to on in cities around the world. We can learn much from happen in a local area, it is not going to be delivered our partners abroad, and it is a very good thing to do. from behind a desk in Whitehall. The noble Baroness, The noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, mentioned that. I Lady Eaton, made a similar point when she called for was not so keen on his football analogy, though. As a further devolution. Local people have a much better Millwall supporter,we do not get any European football. understanding of the problems and challenges in their Our trips are normally up to Birmingham to play area. If they can get that job, they will do it well. The Birmingham City, or perhaps to visit my noble friend noble Lord, Lord Horam, said that we need people in Lord Beecham in Newcastle. Getting together and charge, and one thing I have learned in my life is that if working with other cities is an important thing to do. there are not people in charge to make decisions, you Greater Manchester, which in many ways is the get drift; nothing happens, and there is a lack of focus most developed of all the combined authorities, is a and then failure. Having people in charge is very very good example. As a noble Lord said in a previous important. debate, many of the authorities in Greater Manchester Looking at the proposals in the report, I agree that have changed control in recent years, but they still work reform of government and of Whitehall is a crucial together very well as a group. There is clearly maturity first step. I like the idea of a department for the English there. It is a really good model and other parts of our regions, but it would involve significant restructuring country can look at what goes on in Greater Manchester: and there must be reform as to how Parliament and even when political control changes, there are still the elected MPs would relate to any new department with same problems and challenges, yet they work very well such a clear focus. Others might not, but I would welcome together. It is important that that happens. the return of the government regional offices; it is I can see the logic of combined authority mayors disappointing that they were abolished. I have no problem taking over the roles of the police and crime with the Boundary Commission looking at local authority commissioners. That would be a very good thing. boundaries and at what the authorities do. Again, I am not convinced, and many other noble The noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, made a good Lords were not, by the idea of transferring various point about how some of our cities work. The noble services, such as affordable housing and schools, to the Lord, Lord Tyler, made a fair point when he talked combined authority. I do not necessarily see the merit about city boundaries. I have served on a number of in that. local authorities, including one with 59 Labour members, one Green and a Labour mayor—to be honest, that I agree with the comments of the noble Lord, did not always make for the best government. It does Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, who spoke about not matter which party it is, we need people on councils housing. Wehave debated this many times.Housebuilding to say when a budget is not very good and what should is in the hands of four or five developers. It does not be done instead. If you do not have that, you need it, always necessarily get us what we need. As my noble so we need to find a way for that to happen. I am not friend Lady Warwick of Undercliffe said, partnership an advocate of PR, but in many towns and cities we between local authorities, housing associations and now have one party dominant in the council chamber. builders could get the housing we need built. We need That is not good. I do not know whether we can do to build more social housing in this country. For all anything about that, but we need to find a way of sorts of reasons, that would help all of us deal with the getting somebody else into the chamber—but I do not problems we have to face. know how. There is an issue there. I agree with the comments of the right reverend Select Committees of both Houses have an important Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle about the northern role to play, but as I said earlier, we need to think powerhouse and the need to provide additional funding about how Members of the House of Commons engage and support for the north of England. I am also with the governance of English regions. We might not conscious that we often debate transport. Try to get from GC 73 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 74

Bradford to Manchester: it is impossible. That is really an area where people would always vote Conservative, important to talk about as well, as there are important but my noble friend is held in massive affection there, issues there. as he is throughout that great city. My noble friend Lord Beecham made a welcome As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, just said, his call for more funding and power for mayoral authorities contribution to the Docklands area of London is to raise taxes and charges, including a tourist tax. I immense. In Wales, I remember the opening of the very much support the call from my noble friend National Botanic Garden in Llanarthney, which my Lord Hunt of Kings Heath in that respect regarding noble friend did so much to help with. He was there the Commonwealth Games. I also agree with his point with Lady Heseltine on that occasion. In terms of about the NHS. Again, this is something where Greater lasting contributions, the same is true in Wales. Manchester is certainly ahead of the game. Turning to the debate, I will make some general Finally, I was a very young councillor in the 1980s points and then try to go through and pick up on the in Southwark. It is fair to say that we were not that contributions made by noble Lords. I should say in happy with the setting up of the London Docklands advance that I will make sure that a record of this Development Corporation. It was not universally popular debate is sent to all relevant government departments, locally, but looking back it is fair to say that what the because there is a great danger of silo thinking here. noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, did there was absolutely This is not just about the Ministry of Housing, right. Much good was done in the area. Significant Communities and Local Government. Probably every regeneration happened and lots of money was brought single government department needs to see this debate, into the area, with new housing, better transport, with not least the Treasury. If I miss any points in replying the Docklands Light Railway, and a new financial to the debate or run out of time I will make sure that sector in Canary Wharf. That might not have happened all the points that have been raised are answered in if he had not pushed those things forward. We are very correspondence. grateful to him for that. In north Southwark, maybe There have clearly been differences over some issues William Shakespeare and Sam Wanamaker had a bit in the excellent contributions—whether people are in of a role in that too, but we were very lucky with what favour of having a department of the regions or of happened there and what he did. We are grateful for having regional offices. There has not necessarily been what he pursued there. uniformity on that issue. Where there has been complete I am also really pleased, because the early 1980s agreement is that this is unfinished business in England. were a difficult time for local government: there was a I happen to think that responsibility should lie with a great fracture between central and local government. metro mayor; not everybody does, but everybody accepts For all our difficulties, local and national government that there has to be somebody there. There has to be have a much better relationship nowadays, and we accountability for this to move forward. I believe should all welcome that. strongly in having someone at the helm, such as Andy In conclusion, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, Burnham. He is politically different from me, but I do for bringing this Motion to Grand Committee today. not think one could argue that he has not made a good It has been an excellent debate. He started off by fist of carrying things forward for Manchester. He is mentioning Brexit, so I will finish on it as well. I agree there at the helm, and that is important. The same is entirely with his remarks on Brexit. I had the privilege true of Andy Street in the West Midlands. I happen to of being in Parliament Square when he addressed the believe that that is important, and so do the Government. People’s Vote rally. I believed every single word he said There is also the importance of localism, trusting then, as I do today. people locally with things that should be decided locally. As I go around the country—this morning I 7.10 pm was in Oakham and then Peterborough; as I have said, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry I have been in Liverpool, Leeds, Bradford, Manchester of Housing, Communities and Local Government and and Cornwall within the last month—what consistently Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con): My comes across is that people want that sense of belonging Lords, I thank noble Lords immensely for what has to something and being able to help decide things been an excellent debate. Most importantly, I thank locally. The most responsive way of doing that in most my noble friend Lord Heseltine for bringing this forward cases—clearly some decisions have to be made at a and for a thought-provoking report with excellent different level to the most local—is having people ideas—making this a full house of compliments from doing it locally. That sense of localism is important. every single speaker, which is a rare event in any I also believe that we cannot go for a rigid blueprint. debate—and for a first-class introduction to this debate. We have heard very different stories from different I do not necessarily always agree with the noble communities, partly because of their size and partly Lord, Lord Adonis, but I do on the point about my because of the nature of where they are in the country. noble friend’s lasting contribution to British life and A town of 50,000 people just outside London is very the impact he has made. It is singularly rare for different to a town of 50,000 people in Cumbria or somebody to make the sort of impact across the board Northumberland; their needs will be very different. that he has made in British life, both at the Board of We are at a pivotal point for the country, with a new Trade and in the massive impact he has made on Prime Minister and a new Government, and clearly regional policy,particularly during his time in Liverpool. there are decisions to be made—the in-tray will be I had the privilege of being in Liverpool about three substantial. I agree with a sentiment that has come weeks ago, in Berry Street in Toxteth—it is not necessarily across that because of Brexit, whatever view one takes GC 75 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 76

[LORD BOURNE OF ABERYSTWYTH] areas are concerned. If they want to come forward of it, our eyes have been taken off the ball as a with proposals for further devolution, we are very open country, and probably as a Government, on all sorts to that. Touching on the issue of police and crime of decisions that need resolution. Again, there is a commissioners, that too could be brought forward by very real sense of that up and down the country when the areas that already have devolution. There is, of one visits communities, whether people are for remain course, one example other than London where we or for Brexit. There are things that they say the have a police and crime commissioner who is also the Government and Parliament should be getting on metro mayor: Manchester. The issue of coterminosity with. There is a sense of alienation—that might be too of boundaries would need to be looked at in that strong a word, but there is certainly a sense that, as a connection, but that is certainly a point. Parliament, we are perhaps losing the plot. This is As for the “more widely”, certainly there is unfinished something that a new Government must grapple with. business, as we have heard quite rightly from the noble I will turn to individual contributions and once Lord, Lord Wallace, on Yorkshire. There is unfinished again thank noble Lords for a very wide-ranging business in South Yorkshire, where, having had authorities debate. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, spoke of Cornwall, sign up to the agreement, we have not got all of them with which he has a close connection and expertise. As over the threshold to carry things forward. That has he well knows, we have a devolution deal in place for caused frustration across parties. We have been doing Cornwall. It is the one area in England where we have what we can, and we will still do that across parties to a devolution deal where there is not a metro mayor. I try to achieve that. In Tyneside as well, we have heard agree with the noble Lord that there are issues relating that there is unfinished business. I think we all would to Cornwall that are very different from other parts of want to end what is a patent absurdity of devolution the country—I had better not say other parts of England north of the Tyne but largely not south of the Tyne, because one thing that much of Cornwall is united on except for transport. is that it is not part of England. There are issues of language and culture; I was down there last week and The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, referred to the understand very well their importance. It is very different great things achieved in Gateshead, which is absolutely from metropolitan Britain, and we must not forget true, including the Sage, the BALTIC and the bridge. those important distinctions. However, for them to be part of the agreement with Newcastle must follow, as night follows day; it is crazy The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, reminded us quite for one part of the Newcastle area to be devolved and rightly that this is not just about the money; it certainly not the other part. is about the money, but that is not the only point of regional policy. I very much agree with that and the The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said that this was point he made about levering in private sector funding—a not to detract from London, but that the aim must be point also made by the right reverend Prelate the to bring economic development elsewhere—although Bishop of Newcastle. I also agree with the noble Lord that is not the only aim of what we seek to do. on Richard III, but that is perhaps by the way; we can However, I hope the noble Lord will forgive me for discuss that at leisure at some other time. saying that he then seemed to round on Oxford and Cambridge. Following on from what my noble friend The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, spoke of nostalgia Lord Lansley said, by the same token, they are not and welcomed by and large the report and the sense of seeking money and this is an area of growth that helps direction from it. He had some doubt about a department the whole country. The aim must be to help all areas for the regions but agreed with the main thrust of flourish, and that is what we are seeking to do. what my noble friend Lord Heseltine says in his report. The noble Lord raised the question of the northern My noble friend Lord Hodgson spoke with great powerhouse. The north in general is benefitting from authority from different perspectives—from the committee £3.4 billion of investment going to locally determined perspective, from being MP for Walsall North and projects, and specifically £337 million going to transport from his commercial experience. That was extremely in the metro area of Newcastle, an area that includes useful. He referred again to the need to belong and the places south of the Tyne. Government money does sense of alienation, which I think was referred to as find its way to the north, but I understand that people well by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire. will want to argue the case for their own area. There is a great danger of alienation, not just from Brussels. Perhaps alienation is too strong a word, but I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of there is a turning away from London and wanting Newcastle for her positive and powerful contribution, things to be done more locally and pride in the local as always, on behalf of her area and more generally. area. That is something we need to be aware of, as well She cautioned against the creation of two nations and as the sense of two nations. We need to be wary, as we alienation, which is absolutely right. always have been, as a party and as a country, of the I thank my noble friend Lord Lansley for his point danger of the two nations to which Disraeli referred in about the chambers of commerce. I will take that away Sybil; we do not want that in any shape or form. and underline it with BEIS. It is a very important The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, whom I thank point in carrying this forward. We must note the very much for her contribution and her expertise from concrete examples he gave from Birmingham of the the National Housing Federation, asked whether we NEC, the airport and so on. I thank him for that. He were going to be doing things more deeply and more also talked about the nature of Cambridge, the most widely. To deal first with the “more deeply”, it is very prosperous city in Europe, which is something that much unfinished business as far as the metropolitan should benefit the whole country. GC 77 Devolution: English Cities [17 JULY 2019] Devolution: English Cities GC 78

The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, was very supportive The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, spoke powerfully of the report and referred to the transformation of about what is going on in Gateshead, as did my noble Liverpool. He said quite correctly that Whitehall finds friend Lord Horam. In terms of Tyne and Wear devolution difficult, which I know about from the Archives and Museums, where she does so much, she Welsh perspective. It has got better in relation to recognised that the current structure does not make Wales—much better—but there is still work to be sense. Anything that we are able to do in a pragmatic done. I recognise what the noble Lord said. way to make it work more effectively would be really I neglected to mention earlier the Select Committee, welcomed. which I think is a good idea. Whether it is in the shape The noble Lord, Lord Storey, who has roots in of a Joint Committee or not is above my pay grade Liverpool, referred powerfully to the situation in Toxteth and expertise, but it is an idea worth pushing. and how that was turned round, so that now one goes to Liverpool and there is a great sense of pride about The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others referred to the Albert Dock, the cathedrals and Toxteth. It has the tourist tax. From going to Europe, we are all changed massively and, although there are still challenges, familiar with the bill at breakfast time for the tourist it is very different from how it was previously. tax. We all pay it very willingly, and so it seems like a good idea. I had better be careful in going any further The noble Lord, Lord Butler, gave a great welcome than that, except to say that we will forward the idea to the report. He talked about putting someone in and the comments made to the Treasury. charge, which is a theme that came across and with which many agree. He had doubts about a department Recently, I was in Birmingham for Windrush events, for the regions and talked about the dangers of silo and was taken to an event in support of the thinking, which I think we all recognise. He also Commonwealth Games. There is a growing enthusiasm, talked about the focus on Brexit, which has meant that as there was in London, but I agree that it needs we have not paid attention to other things, and indicated financial underpinning. Presumably the Treasury will that there is a “fertile field for enthusiasm”. That is a be aware of that and will want to make sure that it is at message to carry forward and I thank him very much. least as great a success as the Olympic Games in London in 2012. My noble friend Lady Eaton talked about councils being best placed to deliver for local people. Again, The noble Baroness, Lady Janke, spoke from her that theme came through. experience in Bristol and talked about the great European cities. The politicians on the continent who have come The noble Lord, Lord Desai, perhaps gave this forward from being mayor are notable, including Jacques more of a Brexit spin. I am not sure that I agree with Chirac and Sarkozy, Matteo Renzi in Florence and, a him totally that Brexit is an English crisis. For example, generation previously, Willy Brandt in Berlin. There is Wales voted almost the same way as England. That is a much closer link there, whereas here we have previously not something I am happy with, but it is a fact of life, been able to offer only Joe Chamberlain. I suspect that so it is a little bit wider than that. that is about to change next week when it comes to The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, talked about the mayors who have gone on to other things. energy of my noble friend Lord Heseltine and how he The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, asked about the brought this issue to bear, which has been a mission borrowing cap. I will give him more details in a letter, for him through the years—and thank goodness for if I may, but work is progressing on that, with examples that. He had some very valid points about traffic in Brighton and Hove and in Stoke. It is beginning to situations. Again, I recognise that from Wales, where if happen, but it is early days; I will enlarge on that in a you wanted to get a speed limit changed in a village letter. He referred also to the general position on you had to wait for an accident and pray that there constitutional reform, for which a case could certainly was not going to be too serious an accident before you be made. He also asked about the issue of mayors and could do it. That has all changed and is very much police and crime commissioners, which I think I have better. covered. My noble friend Lord Horam talked about his My noble friend Lord Inglewood also talked about experience from Preston, Gateshead and, more recently, the great European cities and the global nature of Orpington, and the importance of putting someone in London. Many people referred to the growing imbalance charge and having drive at the centre. in Britain and the centralisation. It is true of France, The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, welcomed what we are to some extent, but it is possibly greater in Britain. seeking to do and, though not necessarily agreeing Part of that is just because of the global nature of with all that was in the report, talked about the importance London, which it would be very difficult to do anything of a new financial settlement. I agree with that. Clearly, about even if we wanted to. We do need to encourage it is going to be a matter for a spending review and the the provincial dynamism that he spoke about; it was a new Government, but these things will come with a point very well made. price tag. It is not just about the money, but money My noble friend Lord Haselhurst, with his great will be needed for much of this. I have dealt with the experience of Yorkshire, Lancashire, Birmingham and, point on the Commonwealth Games and the tourist more recently,Saffron Walden and north Essex, recognised tax. how valuable it is to seek to ensure that we get a The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, made rebalancing within the country and have local power valid points, some of which we have been dealing with going to our great cities and, indeed, beyond, throughout in the public lavatories legislation, such as the position England. in Saltaire and Bradford. He talked about how we GC 79 Devolution: English Cities [LORDS] Devolution: English Cities GC 80

[LORD BOURNE OF ABERYSTWYTH] how to deal with it”. I find it tragic that the proposed need to break the logjam in Yorkshire, not least because new arrangements in Newcastle and the debate in the area he represents and is from is unrepresented by Yorkshire are still proceeding, when in other great a metro mayor—my personal view is that that is not a English cities they have managed to find an accord. I desirable situation—and an impasse exists in South hope that this debate can make some contribution. Yorkshire. He asked about the shared prosperity fund. What comes out of this debate, and the most generous I fear this is the usual line, but there is no change on it; compliment that is made to your Lordships’ House on it will be a matter for the spending review. It will occasion, is the quality of the contributions, based obviously take into account the interests of different upon that one immense human asset: experience. parts of the country and seek to ensure that those Everybody who has spoken knew and cared a lot which most need the shared prosperity fund—perhaps about what they were talking about. They were able to those which previously benefited from cohesion contribute a dimension from their background and funding—will continue to receive benefits. experience. I found that enormously impressive, and it Lastly, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for meets my personal experience of engaging on the the points he raised. I agree with much, but not all, of ground with politicians of all parties who are dealing what he said. As usual, he made some very good points. with these complex issues. The moment they become He spoke about the transformative changes brought part of the manifesto sloganising of party politics, it about in Docklands in London, which is absolutely becomes divisive, too much and all somebody else’s true. I should perhaps say in parenthesis that, in fault—we all know the language used, and I am a past Wales, something similar happened with the Cardiff master at exploiting it. But when you have a piece of Bay development, which Nicholas Edwards, the late derelict land, there is not much Marxism or wild Lord Crickhowell, took forward. The docklands in capitalism about what you do; you have a problem to Cardiff is a larger area than the docklands in London, solve, and the sort of people involved in this usually but the project has been similarly transformative. can come together,have a discussion and find a solution. With that, I thank noble Lords very much. I will That is what the vast majority of local decision-making write to answer points of detail that I have missed, but is about. You want people with the power and the free I once again thank my noble friend Lord Heseltine for sense that they are responsible and accountable to be ensuring that we have had such a great debate. This in a position to do something about it. However many must be a rare occasion on which there are probably messages you send, if you are sitting in London, you more people in the Moses Room than in the Chamber are not there. It is just words coming out of the ether, of the House. That is another tribute to him. but the derelict ground still needs to be dealt with. The Minister self-evidently has a problem, with 7.31 pm which we all sympathise. Like everyone in this debate, Lord Heseltine: My Lords, I am overwhelmed by he has no idea what next week will bring. What is the generosity of the tributes paid to the report. I am certain is that there will be no clarity next week, or overwhelmed to speechlessness by the generosity of next month. Whichever way the debate goes, traumas the words of the Minister—I am even tempted to of one sort or another will continue to dominate wonder whether I have been forgiven. I am doubly Britain’s public life and to paralyse a great deal of it. grateful that he is preparing to send a full record of Always the optimist, looking on the bright side I this debate to the civil servants in every relevant have one new proposal coming out of today’s debate, department. They will be grateful for a clear steer which the Minister might care to circulate, not just to coming from any Minister on any subject. I have taken the civil servants but to his parliamentary colleagues. the liberty of sending the report to the two people who This House knows, understands and cares profoundly will have a chance to do something about it, so it is about this issue, so while the Government are sorting getting wide coverage across the globe. out Britain’s future and its relationship with the It is the convention that I do not respond in detail European Union, why not give us the chance to initiate to the remarkable contributions. I may perhaps clarify legislation? Why not relax the Whips and let us get on that the report was commissioned by the six conurbation with trying to produce the framework for legislation authorities and published on their behalf. The issues that could take forward the broadly consensual thrust which have flowed have perhaps widened the debate in of everything that has happened today? When ultimately a way that I did not intend. the Government come back to us and tell us that they have sorted out the big strategy and know where Classically—the noble Lords, Lord Wallace and Britain’s future will be, we will have for them a document Lord Beecham, made this point—the contrast between that they can then introduce in another place—and what has happened to the west and the east of the carve up in a way that politicians always do. Pennines is a microcosm of my experience over 40 years of why it is easy for local people to say, “Give us the Motion agreed. money, give us the power”, until you say, “Produce a structure that gives us the confidence that you know Committee adjourned at 7.38 pm.