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CSPAN /FIRST-LADY-DOLLEY-MADISON March 18, 2014 11:45 A.M EST

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CSPAN /FIRST-LADY-DOLLEY-MADISON March 18, 2014 11:45 A.M EST CSPAN /FIRST-LADY-DOLLEY-MADISON March 18, 2014 11:45 A.M EST FEMALE: Now, our series, “First Ladies Influence & Image” continues with a look at Dolley Madison. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FEMALE: Dolley was both socially adept and politically savvy. MALE: Madison is just not a lot of -laughs, but she was his best friend and she compensated. FEMALE: It is Aaron Burr that lets her know that James Madison wishes to meet her. FEMALE: She carved out a space for women where they could wield a great deal of political power. FEMALE: Here, Dolley Madison would sit at the head of the table and direct the conversation. MALE: She got these people to the White House and entertained them; got them together; got them talking. FEMALE: This was very important for Dolley to make everybody feel welcome, be they enemies or allies. FEMALE: Dolley popularized the style to American fashion and that was considered her classic look. People noticed it. FEMALE: The Octagon was the perfect setting for James and Dolley Madison as they try and resume government as quickly as possible. FEMALE: She sat side by side with Madison for almost 20 years during his retirement, helping him compile and arrange his papers. FEMALE: She moved back to Washington, D.C. in her elder years and sort of became a grand damme– very much behind the scenes in the political field again. FEMALE: As Henry Clay famously said, “Everybody loved Mrs. Madison.” And then, of course, her equally famous response, “That’s because Mrs. Madison loves everybody.” (END VIDEO CLIP) SUSAN SWAIN: Dolley Madison came to her service as first lady with experience in the role. During Thomas Jefferson’s two terms, the widower president often called upon Dolley Madison to assist him and his daughter Martha with White House entertainment. This sense of the usefulness of parlor diplomacy allowed Dolley to hit the ground running when she officially assumed the role in 1809 as her husband James Madison became our nation’s fourth president. Good evening and welcome to C-SPAN’s “First Ladies Influence & Image”. Tonight, we will learn about the intriguing Dolley Madison. For the next 90 minutes, we have two guests at our table who know much about her and about the role of first ladies. Let me introduce you to them. Catherine Allgor is an author, a biographer of Dolley Madison and a historian. One of her books is called “A Perfect Union: Dolley Madison and the Creation of the American Nation”. Thanks for being here. CATHERINE ALLGOR: It’s a pleasure. SWAIN: Edith Mayo is one of our four historian consultants for this series and she was the creator of the First Ladies exhibit at the Smithsonian that so many millions of Smithsonian visitors have seen throughout the years. Edi Mayo, thanks for being here tonight. Nice to see you. EDITH MAYO: Thank you. It’s a pleasure. SWAIN: Well, I’m going to start with you, Catherine. Any 21st century woman who starts to read about Dolley Madison can see some parallels to their own lives in the way she seemed to approach her role in Washington. Was she, in fact, ahead of her time, a sort of modern person in the – in the early 1800s or not? ALLGOR: Well, that’s the paradox. In – really, you understand her as an 18th century woman, raised in a certain culture, but when she becomes first lady, she starts adapting the past in a way that paves the way for modernity. And she also creates the first lady role that we have come to know. So every modern first lady, I think everybody all the way up, looks to her. So, in some ways, she’s definitely a product of her time, but she opens the door for a lot of women. SWAIN: Well, Edi Mayo, staying with those thoughts, because we’re trying to show the parallels among them, how they hand off things about the roles to the others; what are some of the things that Dolley Madison contributed to the role? MAYO: Well, I think in our first segment about Martha Washington you saw Martha as a person who perfected the aspect of the role which was the social partner to the president and a hostess for the nation. Then, when you get to Abigail, she becomes a political partner with her husband and pioneers that role. Dolley is the one who brings the two of them together, so that she becomes both the social partner and the political partner for her husband and I think that sets all kinds of precedents for the future first ladies. And she’s kind of still I think held up as a standard by which other people measure themselves today. SWAIN: We’ll spend the first 45 minutes or so, almost half of our program, on those important White House years. It was such an interesting and tempestuous time for this country and we want to make sure you understand the history of it. Later on, we’ll go back in time and we’ll learn about her biography, how this young Quaker woman became this internationally-known first lady and then end up with her legacy. That’s what tonight looks like and we welcome your participation. Throughout the program we will have our phone lines open and be taking your calls. You can also send us a tweet and use the hash tag “first ladies” and we’ve got the C-SPAN page on Facebook, so lots of ways to add your questions or your comments to our discussion tonight. You know, I know there are people, because I started getting e-mails this week, wanting to know all about Martha Jefferson and they’re wondering, “What happened?” We’ve skipped the third – the third presidency. So we talked about Dolley Madison’s role, but what happened to Martha Jefferson? Why was she not in the White House? MAYO: She was not in the White House because she died very early on. She and Jefferson were married for 10 years and then she died in childbirth. And so, he was a widower when he moved into the White House and needed someone to oversee these parties when both sexes were present. It was thought to be unseemly to entertain in mixed company if you did not have a hostess present, so he would very often ask Dolley Madison. SWAIN: But he did not entertain very much as… MAYO: Well, he entertained in a very private way. He didn’t have large entertainments like Adams or Washington or the Madisons. SWAIN: Which the Capitol was getting used to. MAYO: Exactly. SWAIN: So was there criticism of him for not being so social? MAYO: I think that there was criticism not necessarily for him being so social, but – not so social, excuse me – but because, you know, he didn’t – he didn’t invite the women as often as he did the men. He preferred to have a lot of male company and conduct actual political conversations. And he also did away with all kinds of rank and protocol which was very criticized at that time, but he wanted everyone to be treated as equal. He thought that was what the new nation was all about. SWAIN: How important was the relationship between the – between Thomas Jefferson and the Madisons? ALLGOR: Well, they were – it’s very important, I mean. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson were as – very close political allies and friends. And so, it’s natural, of course, when Jefferson gets elected to bring Madison on as his Secretary of State. I do think I do want to say something about Jefferson’s social program, if you will. It’s not an accident. He was not interested in power sharing. He was interested in securing his own political power, so he had dinner parties with men of one party or the other. So he would sit with his group, the Republicans as they were called, and he would just, you know, keep au courant) and rally the supporters. Then, he would have a dinner party with the opposition, the Federalists. And that was just all about keeping an eye on the enemy. And this idea too that Edi brought up about the lack of women which is why, you know, her role in the Jefferson administration isn’t a big story of that time; he had been to France and he had seen women and women at social events and he was absolutely horrified and shocked especially about their political power because it fell outside the official power. So he cut off all these events. The White House was open only for 4th of July and New Year’s Day and that was partly because he wanted to curtail the power of women. But there was something else going on over on the house on F Street and that was Dolley Madison setting up the connections and networks that she would bring to the White House. So during those first years during the Jefferson administration, the center of social and political life was not the White House or the President’s Mansion as it was called; it was the house on F Street. SWAIN: Here are a few bullet points about the country in 1810 as James Madison takes office. The population at that point was 7.2 million and now 17 states, 36 percent growth since the census 10 years – earlier. And you’ll remember, last week, it was a 10-year – a 35 percent growth.
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