First Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of

DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

Official Report (Hansard)

Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker

Vol. L No. 67 - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, July 25, 2000

ISSN 0542-5492 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature

Member Constituency Political Affiliation

AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. ASPER, Linda Riel N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky, Hon. Inkster N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FILMON, Gary Tuxedo P.C. FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. Wolseley N.D.P. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PENNER, Jim Steinbach P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsiand N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Joy Fort Garry P.C. SMITH, Scott Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P. 4397

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, July 25,2000

The House met at 1:30 p.m. Bill 27-The Correctional Services Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les services PRAYERS correctionnels

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Bill 28-The Northern Affairs Amendment and Planning Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi PRESENTINGREPORTS BY sur les Affaires du Nord et Ia Loi sur STANDINGAND SPECIAL COMMITTEES l'amenagem ent du territoire

Standing Committee on Law Amendments Bill 30-The Social Services Administration Sixth Report Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les services sociaux Mr. Doug Martindale (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments): Bill 34-The Statute Law Amendm ent Act, 2000; Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Sixth Report of Loi de 2000 modifiant diverses dispositions the Committee on Law Amendments. !egislatives

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your and has agreed to report the same without Standing Committee on Law Amendments amendment. presents- Your committee has also considered: An Honourable Member: Dispense. Bill 32-The Victims' Rights Amendment Act; Loi Mr. Speaker: Dispense. modifiant Ia Loi sur les droits des victimes

Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments and has agreed to report the same with the presents the fo llowing as its Sixth Report. fo llowing am endments:

Your committee met on Monday, July 24, 2000, MOTION: at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred. THA T the definition "victim " in the proposed subsection 1 (1), as set out in section 4 of the Your committee has considered: Bill. be amended by adding "or is alleged to have been committed" after "committed" in the Bill 13-The Taxicab Amendment Act; Loi part before clause (a). modifiant Ia Loi sur les taxis MOTION: Bill 23-The JuryAm endment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les jures THA T the proposed section 12, as set out in section 4 of the Bill, be amended by adding the Bill 25-The Interpretation and Consequential fo llowing after clause (k): Amendments Act; Loi d'interpretation et modifications correlatives (k.1) the possible application by a Crown attorney to the court to designate a convicted Bil/26-TheCourt of Queen's Bench Amendment person as a dangerous offender under Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur Ia Cour du Bane de subsection 753(/) of the Criminal Code Ia Reine (Canada); 4398 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

MOTION: but to defe r the completion of such consideration to a .futuremee ting of the Committee. THA T the proposed section 13, as set out in section 4 of the Bill, be amended Mr. Martindale: I move, seconded by the Honourable Member fo r Assiniboia (Mr. (a) by adding the fo llowing after clause (e): Rondeau), that the report of the Committee be received. (e. 1) the date, time and place of an application by a Crown attorney to the court to designate a Motion agreed to. convicted person as a dangerous offender under subsection 753{1) of the Criminal Code Committee of Supply (Canada); and Mr. (Chairperson): Mr. (b) in clause (/), by adding ", including the Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted outcome of an application by a Crown attorney certain resolutions, directs me to report progress to the court to designate a convicted person as a and asks leave to sit again. dangerous offender under subsection 753(1) of the Criminal Code (Canada)" after I move, seconded by the Honourable "prosecution". Member fo r Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the Committee be received. Your committee has also considered: Motion agreed to. Bill 33-The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential AmendmentsAc t; Loi modifiant le MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Code de Ia route et modifications correlatives Health Capital Projects and has ag reed to report the same with the fo llowing amendment: Hon. (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement fo r the House. MOTION: Today I would like to update the House on THAT subsection 4(15) of the Bill be amended Health capital projects. At any given time by adding the fo llowing after the proposed dozens of capital projects are in various stages of subsection 242. 1(7. 1.2): planning and development. Today I am pleased to announce six of these projects are ready to Effectof revocation ofprevious seizure make the final leap from blueprint to actual 242.1(7.1.3) For the purposes of subsections bricks and mortar. Within the next year we can (7. 1.1) and (7. 1.2), the seizure of a vehicle shall expect to see ground being broken on each of not be considered as a previous seizure if these projects. As they move ahead, a number of health care fac ilities will gain much-needed (a) the vehicle was released under subsection improvements that address some of the system's (1. 4), (3. 1) or (]3); greatest needs and priorities.

(b) the seizure was revoked under subsection (5) As you know, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba has or (6); the highest rate of people needing dialysis, and the number of new patients is growing by over Your committee ag reed not to complete clause I 00 per year. That is why we are immediately by clause consideration of moving ahead to make Seven Oaks Hospital a new site for dialysis service. The long-term plan Bill 36-The Summary Convictions Amendm ent is to make Seven Oaks the site of 30 stations Act; Loi modifiantIa Loi sur les poursuites capable of treating 180 patients. Construction sommaires will begin this September. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4399

In August, construction will begin on a new Conservative administration announced appro­ emergency department to replace the crowded vals of 76 Health capital projects. This and inadequate facilities at Thompson General represents a fairly ambitious plan for the next Hospital. The project will also bring CT scan several years. The binge of announcements was capability to this region. a sequel to the announcements preceding the 1995 election. At that time 94 projects said to be St. Boniface General Hospital is about to worth $678.3 million were announced. In 1996, begin upgrades that will solve some serious the capital construction program was put on deficiencies in obstetrical space. The project will hold. By the 1999 election, 27 of these projects make the space more functional and provide new promised in 1995 remained unbuilt. The process facilities for single-room maternity care along of Health capital construction in Manitoba has the more supportive and natural environment for become unpredictable. Pre-election promises low-risk births. have become post-election disappointments. Decisions have sometimes been made on the New nursing homes will soon replace two basis of a variety of concerns other than was old facilities that are badly in need of good for health care. replacement, Bethesda Personal Care Home in Steinbach and parts of Villa Youville in Ste. We do not want to continue that process. Anne. I would like to note that the need to Instead of repeatedly promising projects that replace Villa Y ouville was identified and may never be realized, we are committed to a committed to in 1994. It is time to get on with staged approval process that sees projects construction. At the Tache Centre residents can moving through three clear levels of approval. look forward to a new dining facility. Right now, First, projects are approved in principle if they residents of this personal care home are being reflect community needs and the strategic forced to eat either in their rooms or in the direction of the RHA and the provincial health corridors outside the elevators. When care system. Then more detailed planning construction begins in October, it will mean begins. Next, the memorandum of understanding more than a new dining room for those who live is reached between the RHA and the at Tache. It will mean a better quality of life. For Government, clearing the way for working these capital projects the decision to proceed to drawings, final estimates and other fine details. tendering and construction was fairly straight­ The finalstep is approval to proceed to tendering forward. The planning process was well and construction. No project will reach this stage advanced and there was a need and pressing unless it continues to be relevant and vital. The need for each upgrade. We just need to get on six projects I described earlier have cleared this with the job of building. finalhurdle. *(1 3:35) Over the next several weeks we will be For projects in the early stage of planning, announcing to RHAs the status of all projects in the decision to proceed can be more difficult. the capital plan. I have spoken to CEOs and Planning for some of these projects begins communicated the process. As projects move several years before construction begins. During through this process will be the planning period, technology is constantly working with the RHAs to constantly re-evaluate advancing and the needs and pressures in the proposals in the context of Manitoba's changing system are constantly shifting, and that brings us health care needs. We will be looking at whether to the larger challenge. a proposal still reflects the best way to deliver services to the community, whether it fits in with When I became Health Minister last fall I the province-wide strategy for development of saw a need for a more responsible, flexible and the health care system, whether it has a strong realistic approach to capital planning. The business case, how well it stacks up against other developments leading up to the last election had projects competing for funding and whether it is created an urgent need for change. In the two affordable and practical in the context of the years leading up to the last election, the Government'scurrent financial position. 4400 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

These are reasonable and fair questions to We are also looking at the biggest nursing ask of any expenditure of public money. In fact, shortage we have seen in this province in a long it is our job to ask these questions. Another time. Over II00 nurses- challenge is to face the need to strike a good balance between starting new projects and Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. maintaining our existing facilities. These routine repairs may not have the headline-grabbing Mr. Speaker: Order. appeal of new projects, but they are absolutely essential. That is why we made an important Mrs. Driedger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We improvement to the capital planning process. We certainly are seeing the biggest nursing shortage are now committed to a long-term recurring we have seen in a long time. When we left allocation of funds fo r ongoing maintenance. government, there were 600 vacancies in the Every year a substantial portion of the capital province. There are now over II00. budget will be earmarked fo r repairs to existing buildings and infrastructure before capital * (13:40) planning begins. This year $20 million of the health capital budget was set aside fo r this Mr. Speaker, we also know that dialysis important maintenance work. It is a good way of patients are being transferred to Kenora fo r ensuring that our existing assets are not allowed treatment. The announcement also indicates that to crumble away. St. Boniface General Hospital is about to begin upgrades that will resolve serious deficiencies in We are getting on with the job of building obstetrical space. There are I7 beds sitting for the future in health care in an orderly and vacant right now at the women's centre. They are planned way that makes the best use of resources LDRP beds that have been waiting fo r some and ensures that capital construction fits with the response fr om this government fo r several long-term delivery of services. The investment months now. Seventeen beds fo r women to come this government is making into Health capital in and have their babies. construction this year is comparable to that made in previous years. We are also fixingthe process These beds have been available; staff are so that it is more balanced, flexible and realistic. trained. The information we have is that all they We will be working with Health authorities to are waiting fo r is $300,000 fr om this govern­ build fo r the future in a way that is responsible ment to address some electrical and other issues. and delivers the best possible services to the These beds have been sitting vacant fo r some people of Manitoba. Thank you. time now, and what it is doing is creating a situation that is putting mothers at risk. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I would like to thank the Minister fo r his statement. Mr. Speaker, we are seeing anti-partum Certainly, a number of times in Estimates we moms being kept at home in the community have been asking fo r this information to be when they should be in the hospital, but because tabled and the full detailed plan fo r capital those beds are not open these anti-partum moms construction. We have not been able to have that are being leftat home and at risk. We are seeing information fo rthcoming at a time when we are postpartum moms being sent home too early in Estimates and it gives the Health critic a valid because of the need for beds at the women's opportunity to ask the questions. It is interesting centre, including one mother who had to go to note. home early when in fact she had to leave twins in the hospital. She was sent home far too soon We certainly do have a dialysis problem in fo r a mother that has just had twins and then had this province. There is an increasing need fo r to have the inconvenience of coming back. dialysis patients, but we also happen to have a shortage of trained staff. It is wonderful to talk about opening new units, but unless you can Mr. Speaker, there have been a lot of broken have the staff to adequately work in those units it health care promises made by this minister: the makes for an interesting announcement. hiring of IOO full-time nurses, the opening of July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4401

100 fu ll-time beds, the end of hallway medicine, Mr. Speaker: Order. I would ask the co­ when we are still seeing patients in the hallway. operation of all honourable members. The Honourable Member fo r Charleswood was just Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. wrapping up. Order, please.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Member Mrs. Driedger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I for Charleswood has the floor. will wrap up by indicating the waiting lists fo r ultrasound are up; in fact, they have doubled, CT Mrs. Driedger: While the Government may sit scans are up and bone scans are up. The only one and clap about hallway medicine, it still exists. that has come down in this past year is MRis, In fact, Dr. Ralph Wong from St. Boniface due largely to the fa ct that we had put an MRI General Hospital asks why his patients routinely machine in at St. Boniface Hospital. wait in emergency longer than 24 hours in order to be admitted, including one cancer patient who So we do await the positive things that could waited 72 hours before admission. They have happen in health care, but right now what we are not ended hallway medicine by a long shot, seeing are broken health care promises by this despite the unequivocal black and white promise minister and this government. that hallway medicine would end the beginning of April. It has not ended. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

I will end my comments by also indicating Mr. Speaker: Order. I would once again ask co­ there were a lot of commitments to construction, operation from all honourable members. including that of the Misericordia, 180 beds; Tabor Home, Morden; Salem Home, Winkler; Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask for Emerson. This minister certainly does need to leave to speak on the Minister's statement. address whether or not we are going to be seeing all previous approved projects now discontinued. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? [Agreed] Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Gerrard: I am pleased to hear the Minister Mr. Speaker: Order. of Health (Mr. Chomiak) outline his six capital projects that were announced today. I am glad to Mrs. Driedger: In waiting fo r the tabling of the hear that the Minister recognized that there was a capital plan, we look fo rward to seeing a five­ need for improved capital planning in the health year plan. This particular minister has been care area. I look forward to watching the results pretty adamant over the last number of years that of his process and seeing in fact if it is effective what he would like to see is the tabling of a five­ and if it works better than what we had before. year plan. So I am anticipating that is what he is going to bring fo rward and maintain the past I am also encouraged that the Health commitments that were made to health care. Minister has in his capital planning some ongoing maintenance as part of the overall effort * (13:45) for capital planning. I look fo rward to seeing how this works in the future over the next There are a lot of challenges in health care, several years. and we look fo rward to seeing some of them resolved, including what we understand to be a The investment that is announced today in wait of over 10 000 people waiting right now fo r dialysis, I note with interest, clearly it is ultrasound. That has doubled under this govern­ important, but I would urge the health care ment. minister to work very hard on the early treatment of kidney disease, because indeed in prevention With those comments- and in very early treatment we can very considerably prolong the period before people Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. need dialysis and improve the lifestyle, the 4402 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 quality of care and indeed the cost of health care. House will not entertain that sort of explosion So this is an important area to emphasize as again. well.

I note that there are still significant waiting Amendments-Impact on Property Taxes lists in many areas, and I look fo rward to the Mrs. (Fort Garry): Health Minister's report on an ongoing basis and Mr. Speaker, can the Minister offe r Manitobans any guarantee progress in this area. that property taxes will not increase when Bill * (13:50) 42 goes through?

Hon. (Minister of Education Introduction of Guests and Training): Mr. Speaker, it has given me a lot of pleasure in the past to read into the record Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would the year after year multimillion dollar cuts to the like to draw the attention of all honourable public school system that the members opposite members to the gallery where we have with us offered up to the taxpayers of the province of today Win Gardner who is accompanied by Manitoba during the 1990s. I am tempted to do it Shannon, Carla and Erin Trail from Victoria, again, because it illustrates very clearly the lack British Columbia, who are the guests of the of direction and in fact the real attack the Honourable Member fo r Fort Whyte (Mr. members opposite undertook on the public Loewen). school system. So I will guarantee that this government will not implement budgets which, ORAL QUESTION PERIOD year after year, pull multimillion dollars out of the public school system. Public Schools Act Amendments-Withdrawal Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, how can this minister Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, continue to talk about the past when we are almost 100 municipalities, the Manitoba living in the present? Can this minister deny that Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Federation almost 1 00 municipalities, the Manitoba Cham­ oflndependent Business and three-quarters of all ber of Commerce, the Canadian Federation of the school divisions across Manitoba have joined Independent Business and three-quarters of all fo rces to condemn Bill 42. In spite of the the school divisions across this province are Education Minister's claim to have an extensive fe armongering because they are afraid of what is consultation process, it is clear that Manitobans going to be happening to the taxpayers when Bill do not want this bill to go through. 42 goes through?

Mr. Speaker, given that his colleague the Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I certainly under­ Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) appears to be stand the concerns of municipal officials and withdrawing her legislation, will this Minister of school trustees, of the public on this particular Education fo llow her lead and withdraw Bill 42? matter. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): I appreciate the Member's Mr. Speaker, I certainly understand the question, and I must say that the fe armongering concerns. I was a municipal official myself and undertaken by the Member is quite prodigious in understand local taxation issues very well. I the province. We have numerous examples of understand very well, when the Province takes this sort of thing occurring in this legislation and $30 million out of the public school system, that others, but the facts are that the explosion in local property taxpayers are incumbent to put property taxation that took place during the $30 million in. I am aware that when the 1990s is directly linked to the massive provincial government takes $20 million out of offloading of multimillions of dollars in the the public school system, local taxpayers are re­ public school system, and we on this side of the sponsible for putting $20 million more in. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4403

I am well aware that year after year of Member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon) before she multimillion dollar cuts perpetrated on the references a return to the Dark Ages, when the taxpayers of the province of Manitoba by the majority of the changes in Bill 44 are a return to members opposite led to an explosion in the first eight years of the former government, property taxation in the province of Manitoba to are a return to the labour legislation of Sterling historic levels. We will not, on this watch, see Lyon and Duff Roblin. such an explosion again. Mrs. Mitchelson: It is clear that the ideological Labour Relations Act hidebound decisions and policy decisions, Amendments-Withdrawal legislative decisions, made by this government and introduced by this government are a slap in Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the face to the business community and to the Official Opposition): We have seen by the workers in Manitoba. legislative agenda that has been introduced by this government thatthe union bosses are indeed Now that the Minister of Labour has writing their legislative package and developing indicated clearly that she will not listen to the the economic policy fo r this government. We business community, the community that drives have moved back to the Dark Ages. the economy in this province, will she at least have some consideration fo r the workers in the Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. province who will lose their democratic right to a secret ballot as a result of their legislation? Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Interim Leader of the Official Opposition has the floor. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, we introduced Bill 44, I believe it was three weeks ago in the Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you very much, Mr. Legislature. We are prepared to send it to Speaker. The business community has expressed committee to hear from the people of Manitoba very legitimate concerns about Bill 44 and how at that time. To this date, no one from the regressive it is and what it is going to do to the Opposition has spoken a word in debate on Bill economy of the province of Manitoba. We all 44. If they are so interested in getting it into know that business is the economic engine that committee and getting the people of Manitobato drives prosperity in our province. speak on this piece of legislation, which we are interested in doing, then they will pass it into * (13:55) committee as soon as possible so we can listen to the people of Manitoba. Can the Deputy Premier (Ms. Friesen) today indicate clearly to the business community that Amendments the union boss legislation that has been developed and introduced in this House will be Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of withdrawn by her government? the OfficialOpposition ): Mr. Speaker, we see a minister who brought in a piece of legislation in Hon. (Minister of Labour): the last days of the session, or what they thought am glad that the Interim Leader of the Official might be the last days of the session, without Opposition asked that question because it including it in their election promises, without provides me with the opportunity to straighten including it in the Throne Speech, without out, on the record, fo r the people of Manitoba an talking to the business community about it. I ask incorrect inference or an incorrect statement that the Minister of Labour: How canshe honestly sit was firstput on the record earlier by the Member here and say that we should be debating a piece for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith) that we have any of legislation that has only been on the table fo r intention whatsoever of withdrawing Bill 44. a few weeks and the business community was There is nothing that is further from our minds. not even informed?

Mr. Speaker, I think that the Interim Leader Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. of the Official Opposition should check with the Speaker, the Interim Leader of the Official 4404 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Opposition should not need any lessons in how a I ask the Minister, among others calling fo r Legislature operates, but I wiii share with her the her to withdraw it, do the right thing, Minister, fact that once a bill has been introduced fo r and withdraw Bill 44. second reading, and I spoke on this piece of legislation and said in my speech we were Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, what we have said in prepared to listen to the Opposition and prepared this House and in public is that we want to put to take it to committee, once that happened, the every piece of legislation, and in particular Bill Opposition has had upwards of three weeks now 44, the amendments to The Labour Relations to debate the legislation in second reading. It Act, to committee so we can hear from the does not require an inordinate amount of time. public, unlike the fo rmer government who did Most of the elements in Bill 44, far fr om being not even listen to the Labour Management "ideological hidebound decisions," from the Review Committee in 1996 when they came up Interim Leader's earlier question, are elements with some very hard-thought, compromised that were fo und in the "ideological hidebound consensus positions, not one of which fo und its decisions" of Sterling Lyon, Douglas Campbell way into Bill 26. and the Member fo r Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon). Unlike the fo rmer government, we want to keep an open mind and listen to all of the Labour Relations Act presentations. Unfortunately, the people of Amendments-Withdrawal Manitoba are not being given an opportunity to make their views heard at committee, because Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): In the last 24 the Opposition will not debate it and send it on hours, this government has received more than to committee. 300 faxes from members of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. In the letter Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask it states: Much of this legislation has been this Minister of Labour if she read the LMRC developed without any consultation with small­ letter that was sent to her that says that there and medium-sized business and has serious may be a potential risk to the provincial negative implications. And they say, "Biii 44 economy. must be withdrawn." I ask the Minister of I ask this Minister: Will the Minister do Labour: Do the honourable thing, Minister, and what is best fo r Manitoba and withdraw Bill 44, withdraw Bi11 44. and do it right away?

* (14:00) Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, Manitoba is unique among provincial jurisdictions in Canada in that we require public hearings fo r every single piece Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. of legislation that goes before this Legislature. Speaker, there were consultations. The Labour We on this side of the House expect to listen. Management Review Committee had the issues Unlike the members of the fo rmer government, that were raised that are fo und in Bill 44. What we will listen to the productive suggestions that we are looking fo r is some debate in the come from the people of Manitoba, to the Legislature on second reading; we have seen not concerns that people have about the Bill, to the a single member of the Opposition get up and things that people think are a positive statement speak on this piece of legislation. Failing that, if in Bill 44. We are prepared to listen to the they do not have anything to say in debate, then people of Manitoba, and I beg the Opposition to let us send it to committee so we can hear from debate this piece of legislation. Do the right the people of Manitoba. thing and send it to committee.

Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask Labour Relations Act the Minister if she has read today's Free Press, Amendments-Picket Line Violence where it says: "The NDP Government might be ready to backtrack on its proposed labour law Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. changes." Speaker, one of the fo undations of our society is July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4405 our unified condemnation of violence in all its Member recognizes that positive move on the fo rms. Now, within Bill 44, we have a clause part of the Governmentof Manitoba. fo rcing employers to reinstate employees who, during a strike, committed violent or criminal Again, as I stated earlier, Mr. Speaker, there acts. is no forcing of any employer to hire back any employee. The Labour Board looks at the would ask the Deputy Premier (Ms. situation and makes a determination. I might add Friesen): What kind of signal is her government that since 1973 there has been one incident that sending to Manitobans by fo rcing employers to went to the Labour Board under the fo rmer reinstate these employees? I would ask the legislation. Deputy Premier to answer that. Mr. Gilleshammer: I would again ask the Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Deputy Premier if she does not understand, by Speaker, I think it is reprehensible, absolutely amending section 12(2) of The Labour Relations reprehensible for the members to put on record Act, that the Government will be encouraging today, as they did yesterday, the concept of instances of picket line violence. fo rcing. There is nowhere in Bill 44 in section 12(2) that fo rces an employer to rehire an Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, obviously the employee after a strike or lockout. What this Member did not listen to my answer to the section in Bill 44 is going to do is to return the previous two questions. I will reiterate. legislation back to those "ideological hidebound" years of the fo rmer Premier. the current member There is no forcing an employer to rehire fo r Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon). anyone after a strike or lockout. The Labour Board, should there be an issue, will look at all It says the Labour Board has the authority to the facts and make a determination. The criminal look at all of the facts of a situation that occurred justice system is still in play. Other civil and on a strike or a lockout line, and the Labour legal elements are still in play. It is the same Board will determine whether an employee legislation that was good enough for Sterling should be reinstated. In cases where the Criminal Lyon and the Member fo r Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon). Code has been violated, the Criminal Code and It certainly should be good enough for the other civil and legal avenues are certainly Member for Minnedosa. available, as they have been, Mr. Speaker, from 1976 to 1996. This is exactly the same wording Labour Relations Act of the legislation that was good enough for Amendments-BindingArbitration Sterling Lyon and . Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speaker, I would like the Minister of Labour to Speech made a commitment to create safer fo cus her attention on what is the most, I believe, workplaces. This was a Throne Speech that significant change that she is bringing about, one neglected to mention this legislation. that was changed by the Filmon administration in the early 1990s because it did not represent a I would ask the Deputy Premier (Ms. balance or fa irness, and that is what she is now Friesen) to reconcile the forcing of employers to proposing which is compulsory binding arbitra­ reinstate these employees with the comments tion to settle strikes after 60 days but only made in the Throne Speech. compulsory if the union chooses, not if it is asked fo r, requested by the employer. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the Member has spoken out about safer workplaces, * (14:10) because we are very proud of the fact that in this new budget, our budget that was presented this I would like to ask the Minister today, given spring, we were able to hire and are in the final that she is bringing in a mechanism that has process of hiring eight workplace safety and different triggers for employers versus employ­ health inspectors. So I am very glad that the ees, if she could provide us the names today of 4406 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 all of the business organizations who called fo r Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, this MLA has that particular change. always supported balance, not imbalance as the Minister of Labour has brought in in this Ron. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. legislation. Speaker, the Labour Management Review Committee recognized the fact, as have most I would like to ask the Minister of Labour: Manitobans, that, in the decade of the 1990s, 29 Does she not believe that if she really, really work stoppages or strikes or lockouts lasted fo r wanted to bring in balance, as she said, that any over 60 days. In two instances, they lasted well mechanism that was really intended to reduce over a year. In one instance, they lasted almost days lost to strikes or lockouts would be equally two years. This has led, in just those strikes and applicable to both employer and employee? lockouts, to a situation where we in the province Does she not believe that if an employer wanted of Manitoba, management, business, workers, to use this, even if the union did not, they should the taxpayers, the society as a whole, families, also have the right to invoke this without it being lost 635 000-plus days to strikes and lockouts vetoed by someone else? Where is the balance, lasting over 60 days. Madam Minister?

We do not believe that that is what we Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, I am glad, once should be doing. We believe that Bill 44 will again, that the Member has agreed that this piece provide a balanced approach to labour relations, of legislation- will strengthen labour relations fo r all of the people in Manitoba. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I have to ask the Mr. Speaker: Order. Minister, if she really believes what she is telling Manitobans, why then in this bill did she not Point of Order make this mechanism available to employers to call upon without having a veto by the unionized Mr. Praznik: The Minister may have no answer employees? Why is the trigger fo r the union to to the question about balance because it is not use the mechanism different than the trigger fo r balanced, and she will not admit that. So rather the employers? Why is she inconsistent? If she than just dealing with the issue. she tries to really cares about ending strikes or walkouts, imply that this member somehow supports her why is it not equally compulsory if the employer unbalanced, one-sided proposal. I want to say requests it? very clearly on the record, as an MLA and as a fo rmer minister of Labour, I always supported Where is the balance, Madam Minister? balanced mechanisms that both sides could access. That is not what she has here, and I can Ms. Barrett: I would like to acknowledge and assure her that this MLA will not be voting fo r thank the Member fo r Lac du Bonnet fo r his this one-sided mechanism to appease her fr iends implicit support fo r the concept of an alternate in the leadership of the labour movement. dispute resolution mechanism, which is what we are talking about here. There are many issues, Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government particularly in regard to the alternate dispute House Leader, on the same point of order. resolution mechanism, that are very complicated, that require a great deal of discussion and dialogue. I would like to ask the Opposition once Hon. (Government House again to engage in that debate, to raise the issues, Leader): I think it is very unfortunate, Mr. to speak to the issues in the Legislative Speaker, that on an alleged point of order, a Assembly, not in the 30 seconds available for member gets up, abuses the point of order, the either questions or answers in Question Period, whole fo undation of that, its role in the but actually debate the Bill and send it to Assembly, to get up and make a speech on the committee, so we can have a reasoned public matter that is the subject of the question. I ask discussion about these issues. that you call the Member to order, remind him July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4407 that is not a point of order. He cited no rule, no Mr. Speaker: Order. Question Period is a time citation whatsoever. to share information, and it is very, very difficult to hear the questions and to hear the answers. I Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Official would ask once again the co-operation of all Opposition House Leader, on the same point of honourable members. order, with new information. Sustainable Development Act Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Procurement Guidelines Leader): Mr. Speaker, on the Member's point of order, Beauchesne's 417: "Answers to questions Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. should be as brief as possible, deal with the Speaker, my question is to the Minister of matter raised and should not provoke debate." Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), a minister known for his tough talk toward those who break the laws Mr. Speaker, if the Minister is going to put of Manitoba. false information on the record, she is going to provoke debate in this House. And when this It has become quite apparent that members minister decides she wants to be the House of his own government have broken provincial Leader and start calling bills in this House, all laws by failing to deliver a sustainable develop­ she has to do is tell the House Leader today to ment procurement policy by July 1, by failing to step aside, and I am sure he will, and then she have a complete Sustainable Development can call the orders for this House, and she can Strategy by July 1, by fa iling to call a meeting of decide when we are going to debate the Bill. But the Round Table on Sustainable Development in until she becomes the House Leader, she should more than one year. sit there and do the job she has been designated to, and that is the Minister of Labour. I ask the Minister of Justice what he is doing to address the lawbreakers in his own govern­ Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order ment. raised by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, the Honourable Member does not have a * (14:20) point of order. Hon. (Minister of Conser­ I would like to take this opportunity to vation): Mr. Speaker, I rose to answer this remind the House about the purpose of points of question from the Member for River Heights order. A point of order is to be used to draw to because for quite a while now in this Chamber the Speaker's attention any departure from the the Member has continually stood up to proclaim rules or practices of the House or to raise that The Sustainable Development Act has been concerns about unparliamentary language. A broken. Almost every day he gets up and he says point of order should not be used to ask a you have broken the law because certain question, to dispute the accuracy of facts, to conditions have not been met. clarify remarks which have been misquoted or misunderstood, to move a motion, to raise a Well, I would like to advise the Member that point of order on a point of order. I would ask there are six provisions in the Act that are time the co-operation of all honourable members. bound. Four of them have to do with the future. I mean, you know, what can I do about that? All I *** can do is plan to meet those deadlines that are fo r the future. Two provisions have to do with Ms. Barrett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do hope the July 1 deadline, and that is what the Member I get more than two words out before I am called keeps referring to. on again, but if the Member is saying what I heard him say, that he is in favour of balanced labour legislation, then he will support Bill 44. Mr. Speaker, on June 26, I presented our government's implementation plan for sus­ Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. tainable development in Manitoba. 4408 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary to the Mr. Gerrard: My second supplementary to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh): When it is Minister of Justice: Since it is quite clear that the quite clear under the statutes that the July I requirements of The Sustainable Development deadline was not met fo r presenting the Act were not met, I wonder why the Minister is procurement policy, I ask the Minister why does so lax when it comes to members of his own he employ a double standard. Why is he ready to government and yet so tough on ordinary fine individuals $500 when they do not pick up citizens who do not pick up their mail within their mail in five days, yet not carry through on fivedays. admonishing these colleagues to obey the laws of this province? Mr. Lathlin: For example, the Act states that the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council shall, with­ Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, once again, I would in two years after the coming into fo rce of this like to advise the Member here is the strategy act, establish a Sustainable Development that I presented to the Chamber on June 26. He Strategy fo r Manitoba. We have done that. The keeps saying that we have broken the law, but Minister shall cause sustainability indicators to here is the strategy that we presented to the be established within three years after coming House on June 26. into force. We will do that. The Minister shall cause a sustainability report to be prepared, Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Member based on sustainability indicators, within fo ur fo r Lac du Bonnet, on a point of order. years after their establishment. We will meet those deadlines again. Point of Order The Member talks about the procurement Mr. Darren Praznik (Deputy Opposition strategy. Cabinet shall, within two years of the House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker. I believe the coming into fo rce of the Act, establish sus­ document the Member has quoted should be tainable development procurement guidelines. tabled if he is going to refer to it in any way We will table those guidelines in the fall. Two before the House, unless in fact it has been made years, we have two years. public. Labour Relations Act Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Amendments-Justification Mr. Praznik: Is it a public document? Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, back to business. History proves that trying to Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable make the poor rich by making the rich poor has Government House Leader, on the same point of never worked, so a return to the days of Howard order. Pawley should not be the Government's goal Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House since Manitoba's economy hit rock bottom with Leader): Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate the Pawley at the helm. Opposition has not been listening, but it is my understanding, in advice to me, that particular Why has the Minister of Labour gone document was in fact tabled. It was made against her leader's campaign promises to have a available to all members of the House and, as good relationship with business and to keep what well, I believe the Minister again has advised the the fo rmer government got right by returning House that the document has been tabled. It is Manitoba to the ineptitude of the Pawley era? already the property of the Legislature. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): the Honourable Member fo r Lac du Bonnet, he First we had "ideological hidebound decisions" does not have a point of order. Beauchesne's and "back to the Dark Ages" as descriptors fo r cites unless it is a private letter, then that would legislation that was on the books and worked have to be tabled. very well through . the Duff Roblin era, the Sterling Lyon era and the Gary Filmon era. Now * * * we have another comment from the Opposition. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4409

Mr. Speaker, Bill 44 is designed to restore lation and would like to get the public's input balance. The majority of the proposals that through public committee hearings, if we could fo und their way into Bill 44 reflect partial or get the Opposition on side on that. complete consensus on the part of the Labour Management Review Committee. What we Workplace Safety and Health Act would very much like to do, and I think the Amendments people of Manitoba would very much like to have us do as legislators, is to debate the Bill in the House in second reading and then take that Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, bill to public hearings so we can hear and listen it is now very clear that no soul in the business to all sides of this issue, these very complicated community is safe from this NDP Government's issues. assault against small-business people and entrepreneurs. In addition to Bill 44, there is Is that too much to ask, Mr. Speaker? now talk even more destructive legislation is about to be introduced. Mr. Jim Penner: Mr. Speaker, "balance" is a Mr. Speaker, I would like to quote from the new term. We fo und out in Estimates that there newsletter from the CFIB which says, in is negative balance and positive balance. Does reference to the Minister: The Minister has the Minister expect to go forward in today's indicated that she is considering making world by going backwards to one of the darkest directors of corporations criminally liable fo r parts of Manitoba's economic history? Is that offences under The Workplace Safety and negative balance? Health Act in cases where due diligence is not used. [interjection} And the Minister, from her Ms. Barrett: I will not go back to the dark days seat, says, oh, how horrible. I want to ask this of 1992 and 1993 in this province. I will not go minister whether she will confirm when she will back to the acute protracted restraint of the be introducing this legislation, as company Sterling Lyon era. These measures in Bill 44 are headquarters in Manitoba will need some designed to restore the balance that was present warning time in order to move their head­ in the labour relations climate through the years quarters. of Duff Roblin, Howard Pawley, Sterling Lyon and Gary Filmon. * (14:30)

Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Mr. Jim Penner: Mr. Speaker, it is the year Speaker, I find it very interesting that the 2000 and we still want to know: Does the Member would suggest that people should not be Minister of Labour support the union bosses who liable for situations that they have knowingly want their lives made easier, or hardworking brought about or knowingly not ameliorated Manitobans who want their democratic rights when they had the opportunity. From their seats, and freedoms to a secret ballot? over the last fe w weeks, the members have spoken up very loudly on behalf of "workers' Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, we believe that Bill rights." 44 is a balanced, reasonable approach to labour relations that will strengthen the free collective All we are going to be doing in this bargaining process in the province of Manitoba, legislation, which has not been tabled in the will strengthen the economy and will make House yet but will be in due course, is to ensure Manitoba a more positive place for people who that workers' health and welfare is protected. In are currently here, those workers and their those very, very, very fe w instances where fam ilies who are currently here, those employers directors of corporations are proven to have been and their fam ilies who are currently here and liable, either through acts of omission or acts of employers who may be considering coming to commission, when they should have known the province of Manitoba. We believe this is a better and did nothing, we think that is only fair very positive, fo rward-looking piece of legis- and balanced for all of the people of Manitoba, 4410 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 most particularly the workers. Workers and legislation will only address those situations employers should be happy that there is good, where directors can be proven to be criminally solid workplace safety legislation in this negligent in what they did do or criminally province. negligent in what they did not do that they should have known. We refuse to be part of a Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask government that will allow a Westray or a the Minister if she can explain how many jobs Poulin's to happen in this province. this legislation change, which she is planning, will cost Manitoba, or does she even care? Mr. Speaker: Time fo r Oral Questions has expired. Ms. Barrett: I would just like to ask the Member if he is seriously considering the fact MEMBERS' STATEMENTS that we should go back to Westray, that we should go back to Poulin's, that we should go Manitoba Amateur Golf Championship back to the salt mines, that we should go back into conditions in mines where they had to have Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of canaries to go into the mine ahead of the workers the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I want to find out when there were poisonous gases. all members of the Legislature to know, and to hopefully share the pride that I share when I Mr. Speaker, it is unconscionable that this learned that a constituent of mine captured the member is, for a moment, suggesting that we are Manitoba Amateur Golf Championship on the not concerned with workers' rights and lives. If weekend. I would like to congratulate Kevin one worker's life is saved or one worker's quality Kotyk, a 17-year-old student at River East of life is protected through this piece of Collegiate fo r his well-deserved victory at the legislation that will require people who should Pinawa Golf Course. know, or should have known, or should have done something and did not, were criminally I have had the opportunity to watch Kevin negligent, they will be charged, as they grow up in our community and be involved in legitimately should be. We are in fa vour of our local community club, and I just want to protecting the health and well-being of our indicate how very proud we are in River East Manitoba workers, and that can only be good fo r constituency of his accomplishments. all Manitobans. I am appalled at his comments in this regard. Kevin joins a very noteworthy group of Manitoba amateur champions. His name now Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, there is not a single joins notable fo rmer champions such as Terry member in this Legislature who is not concerned Hashimoto, Rob McMillan, Todd Fanning and about the rights of workers in this province. This Glen Hnatiuk. is draconian legislation that this minister is looking at. With his victory, Kevin became one of the youngest Manitoba Amateur Golf Champions I want to ask the Minister how she and her ever. Kevin will now be representing Manitoba government will compensate fo r the vast in the Canadian Amateur Championship held decrease in tax revenue when the corporate next week in Edmonton. Congratulations to him sector leaves the province due to a punitive and the other golfers who will make up Team change made by this NDP Government. Manitoba. I am sure that they will proudly represent our province very well. Thank you. Ms. Barrett: I would like to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that if the Opposition's economic Manitoba Stampede and Exhibition strategy is to bring Third World economic conditions, working conditions, to the province Ms. (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, this of Manitoba, then they need to look only into the past week I had the opportunity to attend the mirror as to why they lost the election. We are opening ceremonies of the 37th annual Manitoba concerned about workers' safety and health. This Stampede and Exhibition in Morris, Manitoba. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 441 1

This fo ur-day event attracts over 30 000 visitors Following the opening breakfast, I was to Morris. The afternoon I attended the Morris challenged to try my hand at blind golfing. With Stampede there were visitors from all over the a blindfold over my eyes I took a couple of world in the stands with me that afternoon, swings, actually hitting the ball, but in entirely including visitors from Holland, England, New the wrong direction. The experience illustrated Zealand and South Africa. to me just how challenging the sport must be to the blind. It is indeed an accomplishment fo r It is important to remember this agricultural those who are able to overcome their handicap to fa ir emphasizes the day-to-day excellence excel at this endeavour. The Western Canadian achieved by Manitoba farmers and thrills Blind Golf Championship is a very special audiences with bareback riding, saddle bronc, event, and I want to thank all of those involved steer wrestling, barrel racing, chariot and fo r bringing the tournament here. Participants chuckwagon races. from a number of diffe rent countries including Japan, Ireland and Canada took part. Over the years, this stampede has been an important venue to showcase the best of agricul­ On behalf of all members ofthis Chamber, I ture, fo od and rural hospitality in Manitoba. It want to congratulate the golfers on their great provides a vehicle to promote agriculture in this efforts and the organizers and volunteers who area, as well as celebrate achievements in 4-H, made it happen, and a great big thank you to the youth, and related sectors. The stampede Charleswood-Tuxedo Lions Club who were the provides exposure fo r Morris and southern lead sponsors of the tournament. Manitoba as a progressive centre of agricultural activity and its importance in the local economy Last Post Fund is well understood, as demonstrated by the large contingent of dedicated volunteers from the Mr. (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I many communities surrounding Morris. rise today to talk about the Last Post Fund I attended on July 16, 2000. It was really an Manitoba Agriculture and Food works impressive ceremony. What happened was there closely with the Valley Agricultural Society to was a columbarium that was dedicated on behalf support new initiatives, and the provincial of those people who served as veterans in the agricultural society program provides funding war or served in our armed fo rces in peacetime. fo r innovative projects that demonstrate signifi­ It was very important because we owe so much cant industry benefits and promotes agricultural to our veterans who through their devotion to commodities produced in Manitoba. duty gave us the liberty and freedom we now enjoy as Canadians. They have given us the lead, On behalf of the Minister of Agriculture and they have served across the world and done (Ms. Wowchuk), I congratulate the Valley Agri­ a lot in wartime and peacetime that we can all be cultural Society for over a century of work in thankful for and our country can be thankful fo r. this area, and the Morris Stampede organizers fo r showcasing agriculture in Manitoba. This structure that was dedicated on that day will stand as a fitting tribute to their valour and * (14:40) sacrifice. It is also important that as they passed to their final reward, we ensure they are laid to Western Canadian Blind Golf Championship rest with honour, respect and dignity, providing fo r them in death what they fought to give us in Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, on life. I commend the board of the Manitoba Monday I had the honour of attending the Branch of the Last Post Fund, Larson Memorials opening of the Western Canadian Blind Golf and a lot of people who gave of their time, the Championship. The day started with an early volunteers and those who worked towards this morning breakfast at the Kingswood Golf and final project being finished. I am certain that this Country Club, at which I brought greetings on compassion, the dedication and the commitment behalf of the Morris constituency. that they showed to this project will really help 44 12 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 the friends and families and the history of Motion agreed to. Manitoba which we all can appreciate. Mr. Dyck: I move, seconded by the Honourable Thank you very, very much fo r all of those Member fo r Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay), that people who helped on this valuable proj ect. the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources, July 26, St. Cyril and Methodius Church 10 a.m., be amended as fo llows: Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) fo r Lakeside (Mr. Enns); Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, it is Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) fo r Portage Ia my pleasure to rise today, and it was my Prairie (Mr. Faurschou); Fort Whyte (Mr. pleasure to attend the Mass and picnic last Loewen) fo r Emerson (Mr. Jack Penner); and Sunday, July 23, celebrating the designation of Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner) fo r Southdale (Mr. Gimli's St. Cyril and Methodius Church as a Reimer). heritage site. St. Cyril and Methodius Church was constructed in 1904 by Gimli's first Polish Motion agreed to. homesteaders. The church still stands today on its original site located west of Gimli on Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I Highway 23 1. The original log structure burned move, seconded by the Member fo r Wellington to the ground and was rebuilt in 1909. The (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the second church, struck by lightning in 1917 was Standing Committee on Public Utilities and rebuilt in 1921 with volunteer labour. This effort Natural Resources be amended as fo llows: was a testament to the dedication and Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) fo r Riel (Ms. Asper). determination of the people of the surrounding communities. Motion agreed to.

So, too, was the effort to preserve this Mr. Dewar: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by important part of Gimli's heritage. Paul the Member fo r Wellington (Mr. Santos), that Artyshko, his wife Grace and Joannie the composition of the Standing Committee on Bartmanovich formed the St. Cyril and Law Amendments fo r Wednesday, July 26, at 10 Methodius Church Heritage Incorporated in a.m., be amended as fo llows: St. Johns (Mr. order to salvage and preserve the landmark Mackintosh) fo r Brandon East (Mr. Caldwell); building. I want to congratulate them fo r their Lord Roberts (Ms. McGiffo rd) fo r Inkster (Ms. effort and their vision. I also congratulate all Barrett); Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau) fo r Riel (Ms. those who helped them to ensure that the St. Asper); Wellington (Mr. Santos) fo r St. Vital Cyril and Methodius Church became a heritage (Ms. Allan); Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff) fo r site. So I commend, therefore, their efforts to Transcona (Mr. Reid); Dauphin-Roblin (Mr. protect and preserve this important part of Struthers) fo r Brandon West (Mr. Smith); La Gimli's and Manitoba's history. Thank you, Mr. Verendrye (Mr. Lemieux) fo r Burrows (Mr. Speaker. Martindale).

Committee Changes Motion agreed to.

Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I move, seconded ORDERS OF THE DAY by the Honourable Member fo r Minnedosa (Mr. House Business Gilleshammer), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments, July Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House 26, 10 a.m., be amended as fo llows: Lac du Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise, in Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) fo r Fort Garry (Mrs. addition to the bills previously referred to the Smith); Southdale (Mr. Reimer) fo r Russell (Mr. Public Utilities and Natural Resources Derkach); Morris (Mr. Pitura) fo r Portage Ia Committee fo r July 26, at 10 a.m., that the Prairie (Mr. Faurschou); and Seine River (Mrs. fo llowing bills will also be considered: Bills 29 Dacquay) fo r Springfield (Mr. Schuler). and 37. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4413

Mr. Speaker: It has been advised that, in my community right now, and it is becoming a addition to the bills previously referred to the problem. Public Utilities and Natural Resources Committee fo r July 26, at 10 a.m., that the I am just wondering if the Minister could fo llowing biils wiii also be considered: Biils 29 give me a hint on how to get rid of both the and 37. [Agreed] Thompson turkeys or the crows and the wild turkeys. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conser­ Selinger), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the vation): Mr. Chairman, I am given to understand Chair and the House resolve itself into a that the crow and the raven are actually not on committee to consider of the Supply to be the endangered list. However, if these birds are granted to Her Majesty. on your own private property, in order to protect your property, I understand that you are free to Motion agreed to. scare them away.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY It is apparently all right to dispose of them if (Concurrent Sections) they are on your property and they are damaging your property. CONSERVATION Mr. Chairperson: 12.4.(f)(3)Less: Recoverable * (14:50) from other appropriations ($95,000}-pass.

Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): 12.4.(g) Land Mapping Services (1) Salaries Order, please. Wiii the Committee of Supply and Employee Benefits $496,500-pass; (2) please come to order. This afternoon this section Other Expenditures $240,200-pass. of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 wiii resume consideration of the Estimates Resolution 12.4: RESOLVED that there be of the Department of Conservation. granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,990,200 fo r Conservation, Land Information When the Committee last sat, it had been Centre, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31st day of considering items on page 43 of the Estimates March, 2001. book, 12.4.(f)(3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($95,000). Shall the line pass? Resolution agreed to.

12.5. Environmental Stewardship (a) Sala­ Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. ries and Employee Benefits $2,343,000-pass; (b) Chairperson, before we start passing all the lines, Other Expenditures $764,000-pass; (c) Grant I have just one question. Some people might Assistance $83,500-pass. think it is laughable, but some of my constituents are taking it very seriously. Resolution 12.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding We have got a problem with Thompson $3,190,500 fo r Conservation, Environmental turkeys, the crows and the ravens that are getting Stewardship, for the fiscal year ending the 31st very strong in our area. A constituent phoned me day of March, 200 I. this morning and asked me the question if they are on an endangered list, or a no-shoot-'em, or Resolution agreed to. are they allowed to kiii them within the city limits? They are really becoming pests. They are * (15:00) eating all the eggs from the local songbirds, and we would like to find a way or a mechanism of 12.6. Environmental Management (a) En­ removing them and also the wild turkeys. We vironmental Operations ( 1) Salaries and have probably got a herd of over 300 and 400 in Employee Benefits $5,01 2,600-pass; (2) Other 4414 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Expenditures $1,507,800-pass; (3) Grant Assis­ Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): The tance $900-pass. infrastructure here deals primarily with the dikes. Does this fo r the flooding? 6.(b) Environmental Management (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,523,900- Mr. Lathlin: Yes, that is the flood proofing, pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,933,000-pass. what is being done on community ring dikes, et cetera. 6.(c) Clean Environment Commission (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $292,000-pass; Mr. Gerrard: I note with pleasure that there has (2) Other Expenditures $177,200-pass. been some progress and that the dike, fo r example, in Rosenort seems now to be Resolution 12.6: RESOLVED that there be proceeding. But I wonder if you can tell me of granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding the I think it was 13 dikes that were planned: $10,447,400 fo r Conservation, Environmental How many of those are now underway and how Management, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31st many are still yet to come? day of March, 200 I. Mr. Latblin: I do not have that information Resolution agreed to. right at my fingertips, but I would propose to the Member that we gave a report not that long ago, Resolution 12.7: RESOLVED that there be I believe. We gave a progress status fo r each granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding project. I would like to propose to the Member $1,145,900 fo r Conservation, International that I would do the same thing this time round Institute for Sustainable Development, fo r the and give him the information as soon as I can. fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 200 I. Mr. Gerrard: Can the Minister inform the Resolution agreed to. Committee when he expects to have all the projects completed? 12.8. Infrastructure and Minor Capital Projects (a) Equipment $460,600-pass; (b) Mr. Latblin: The time frame fo r these is Water Projects $4,565,400-pass; (c) Park completion fo r 2003. It is a five-year program. Facilities $4,189,300-pass; (d) Less: Recoverable from Capital Initiatives. Mr. Gerrard: Because of the situation, in particular in southwestern Manitoba, where it is Resolution 12.8: RESOLVED that there be not only dikes but other irrigation and drainage granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding measures which are of particular importance, I $9,215,300 for Conservation, Infrastructure and wonder if the Minister has any allocation fo r Minor Capital Projects, fo r the fiscal year ending drainage or irrigation or water management the 31st day of March, 200 I. infrastructure in southwestern Manitoba.

Resolution agreed to. Mr. Latblin: This program which we have just finished talking about is for the Red River Resolution 12.9: RESOLVED that there be Valley. There is no money earmarked at this granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding time, I think, fo r southwest Manitoba. $2,41 8,700 fo r Conservation, Amortization of Capital Assets, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31st Mr. Gerrard: I thank the Minister fo r his day of March, 200 I . clarification. I am curious, given the circum­ stances in southwestern Manitoba, the fact that Resolution agreed to. we are significantly behind, fo r example, Saskatchewan and Alberta on irrigation infrastructure, and that there is a need clearly in 12.10. Flood Proofing Programs, Capital a number of areas fo r drainage and water Grants $12,685,600-pass; Infrastructure - management on an improved basis in south­ $17,078,200. Shall the line pass? western Manitoba, whether the Minister, if not July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4415 any funds allocated, has fe asibility studies, other process, we advised the public and also the studies underway which would lead toward the Committee that we are also gearing up fo r a potential for such infrastructure investments in more comprehensive water management review the future. for all ofManitoba, not just southern Manitoba. I have only been here a short time, but it has Mr. Lathlin: The short answer to that question become very clear to me that there is un­ is that there are no funds earmarked fo r controlled drainage work, protecting your land, irrigation projects fo r southwestern Manitoba at and so fo rth, runoff water in the spring, and also this time. the rain. Everyone does their part, I guess, to protect their property. I would probably do the Mr. Gerrard: There have been, out of the Red same thing too. River Valley flood, some circumstances, and I remember flooding around Lake Manitoba, the The net effect of that uncontrolled drainage Dauphin River circumstance. There was some work is that people are negatively impacted discussion at the time in terms of infrastructure downstream. I look at Lake Manitoba, fo r which relates to prevention of flooding, not only example, I was there visiting the Fairford First along the Red River Valley, but there, because, Nation not that long ago, and those people of course, as one changes the outflow from the cannot even dig graves when they have funerals Assiniboine into Lake Manitoba, you have the because as soon as they go two feet into the potential to flood communities downstream. ground, water comes up. But they have had that problem ever since some drainage work was * (15:10) done on the south basin of Lake Manitoba. Just the other day, I met with a group who are I wonder if there are any plans or dollars planning to further put a pipe into Lake earmarked fo r flood infrastructure, water Manitoba. Of course, what that will do is it will management infrastructure, along the corridor just exacerbate Fairford First Nation's already fr om the Assiniboine to the Portage diversion, real bad water situation. So that is what happens up to Lake Manitoba and in the outflow toward when there is uncontrolled drainage work all Lake . over the place.

Mr. Lathlin: Currently, there are no fu nds Our efforts will be fo cussed this coming fall earmarked fo r any programming fo r that part of towards trying to come up with a more balanced the province, on Lake Manitoba and Lake approach to water management. The com­ Dauphin. munities the Member talks about will more than likely be part of the consultation process. Indeed Mr. Gerrard: One other area that there are we are meeting some of those communities right concerns about in relationship to the-it is in the now. Apparently a study was being done for Rat Red River waterway-would be in the R.M. of La River and so fo rth, but nothing has been made Broquerie where there has been a lot of concern definitive yet. So I look fo rward to the in changes in water management which have led consultation process that we are putting in place to increase runoff and water problems. For fo r the fall to determine what is the best policy example, in the recent heavy rains, we saw that we can come up with in order to manage significant water damage and water problems in water, whether it is ground water or surface the R.M. of La Broquerie. I am just wondering if water, potable water. there are any plans at this point, or funds allocated in terms of water management infrastructure in the R.M. of La Broquerie. I should also mention to the Member that I was up north last weekend. I am telling you, it is Mr. Lathlin: Maybe I could start off by bone dry up in those rivers and lakes up north. advising the Member that, as he knows, we just Then I come down here and people are crying passed in committee the Water Rights bill, because there is too much water. But I think I which would go a long way to alleviate some of have become fam iliar or made to understand the problems. I think that, during the hearings why there is such a vast difference between 44 16 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 water levels, say, at Clearwater Lake, Cormorant concentration of whatever the contaminants are, Lake, compared to down south. then I think it will be easier to determine what the root cause of the contamination is. In other parts of the province and in the country it is too dry. In some parts of the country So far, maybe there is a report on my desk it is too wet. Then there are even those, learned right now, but as of this morning I had not people, professional people, who predict that in received a report yet. We are looking at whether time we are going to be short of potable water. the contaminants come from the run-off from the So we have a big, big job ahead of us. land into the river.

Mr. Chairperson: 12.10 Infrastructure I mean, I was saying to our people in the $17,078,200-pass. Department, that, you know, fo r me, any river that goes through the city of Winnipeg is pretty Resolution 12.10: RESOLVED that there be vulnerable. There are all kinds of contaminants granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding that could enter the river system, even coming $29,763,800 for Conservation, Flood Proofing close to the city of Winnipeg, but once you are Programs, fo r the fiscal year ending the 3 1st day in the city of Winnipeg the river is pretty of March, 2001. vulnerable. So we are looking at that. We are treating it very seriously. As soon as we can Resolution agreed to. determine what the real cause of the problem is then we can fo rmalize a plan of action. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Conservation is Mr. Gerrard: Were there any other of creeks item 12.1 (a) Minister's Salary. At this point we and streams similarly with a big spike in the E. request that the Minister's staff leave the table coli levels? for the consideration of this item. Mr. Lathlin: There are no other streams or 12.1. Administration and Finance (a) rivers or creeks. I can advise the Member that Minister's Salary $27,300. Shall the line pass? some of these investigations that we are doing are initiated, like, we go in there and if we find Mr. Gerrard: Just a couple of questions. something that does not look right we would like to fo llow up some of the discussion investigate . Some of them tum out to be okay. In yesterday which related to the Minister's plans some cases we have had to, as a precautionary fo r creeks like Sturgeon Creek, which appear to measure, we have asked people to boil water. In have had contamination by E. coli. When we are some cases, in camping grounds we have dealing with creeks which come into the city of actually shut off the well so that people do not Winnipeg, the situation may be a little different drink water fr om there. But so far we have not fr om creeks other places, but, nevertheless, they had a major, major problem. need to be taken clearly with some seriousness. I think the main reason we are doing that is I just wondered what your planning to make sure that we do not run into the same approach was fo r creeks like Sturgeon Creek. problems as were experienced in the province of Ontario in Walkerton. People are very, very (15:20) * aware of what happened in Ontario. so therefore any little thing that is there, people want to Mr. Lathlin: As I advised the Member investigate, because we do not want to go yesterday, we are currently taking samples through the same thing here in Manitoba. strategically along the river. In other words, there is a sample being taken at a certain point on the river, and then downstream we are taking Mr. Gerrard: I would just add I was out at another sample. Then it is a process of Sturgeon Creek this morning. One of the local elimination, I guess. If we do not find anything residents was saying that the condition of here, then we move on. Where we might find a Sturgeon Creek in his memory going back 40 July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4417 years had never been this bad in terms of the ABORIGINALAND NORTHERN AFFAIRS problem that exists at the moment. Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Mr. Lathlin: Yes, as a matter of fact, I think in Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply the case of Sturgeon Creek, how we became please come to order. This afternoonthis section aware of the problem there is from people of the Committee of Supply will resume phoning our offices and letting us know and our consideration of the Estimates of the Department going there to investigate. But I recall a while of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs in Room back, even in The Pas, there is a place called 254. Bracken Dam. I do not know if the Member is aware of it. It is Bracken Dam. It is a dam across When the Committee last sat, it had been Birch River, which goes into Carrot River. considering item 19.2.( g)( 1) on page 24 of the Carrot River of course is a tributary of the Estimates book. Saskatchewan River. Item 19.2. Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Anyway, right at the dam we had found just Operations (g) Agreements Management and tons and tons of dead fish one summer. When Co-ordination (1) Salaries and Employee Bene­ the conservation officerswere alerted and started fits $712,100-pas s; (2) Other Expenditures investigating, the results of their investigation $174,400-pass; (3) Northern Flood Agreement showed that because there was no oxygen left, $1,355,000-pass. the fish died. One of the initial causes that our people look at is lack of oxygen, but, no, not that 2.(h) Aboriginal Affairs Secretariat (1) I am aware of as I am sitting here, there are no Salaries and Employee Benefits $450,800-pass; other rivers and streams that might have that (2) Other Expenditures $228,700-pass; (3) problem. Aboriginal Development Programs $2,003,600- pass; (4) Aboriginal Economic and Resource Mr. Gerrard: Thank you. Development Fund $1,000,000-pass; (5) Partners for Careers $200,000-pass. Mr. Chairperson: 12.1(a) Minister's Salary $27,300-pass. 2.(j) Communities Economic Development Fund $1 ,500,200-pass. Resolution 12.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Resolution 19.2: RESOLVED that there be $6,380,100 for Conservation, Administration granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding and Finance, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31st $19,592,700 for Aboriginal and Northern day of March, 2001. Affairs, Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Operations, for the fiscal year ending the 31st Resolution agreed to. day of March, 2001.

This concludes the Estimates for the Resolution agreed to. Department of Conservation. 19.3. Capital Grants (a) Northern Is it the will of the Committee to recess for Communities $2,379,600-pass; (b) Community the next round of Estimates for Aboriginal and Access and Resource Roads $235,000-pass; (c) NorthernAf fairs? [Agreed] Less: Recoverable from Capital Initiatives. The Committee recessed at 3:26p.m. Resolution 19.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,61 4,600 for Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, Capital Grants, for the fiscal year ending the 3 1 st The Committee resumed at 3:31 p.m. of March, 2001. 44 18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Resolution agreed to. considering the Estimates of the department of Status of Women. Resolution 19.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Does the Honourable Minister responsible $135,000 for Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, for Status of Women have an opening statement? Amortization of Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 3 I st day of March, 2001. Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister responsible fo r the Status of Women): Yes, Mr. Chair, I do. Resolution agreed to. Today, I am pleased to have the opportunity The last item to be considered for the to present the Estimates fo r the Department of Estimates of the Department of Aboriginal and the Status of Women for the fiscal year 2000- Northern Affairs is item 19.1.(a) Minister's 2001. The Status of Women includes the Salary. At this point, we request that the Manitoba Women's Directorate and the Minister's staff leave the table for the con­ Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. I will sideration ofthis item. speak first of the activities of the Women's Directorate and then to those of the Advisory I 9.l .(a) Minister's Salary $27,300-pass. Council.

Resolution I 9. I: RESOLVED that there be The Women's Directorate works within granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding government to influence government decision $873,900 for Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, making through research support, policy Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Executive, fo r development and evaluation of government the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March. programs, policies and legislation, in order to 2001. determine their impact on women. It also interacts with various departments of Resolution agreed to. government, the business sector, the community and fe deral-provincial territorial ministries ofthe This completes the Estimates of the Depart­ Status of Women, to raise awareness of the ment of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. reality of women's lives and to ensure that the differential impact of proposed programs and The next set of Estimates that will be services, employment practices or other considered by this section of the Committee of initiatives is considered. Supply is the Estimates of the department of Status of Women. To focus its activities and to support government priorities. the Directorate has Shall we briefly recess to allow the Minister developed five goals that represent its priority and her critic to have the opportunity to prepare areas over the next five years. These goals are: to fo r the commencement of the next set of enhance the capacity for Manitoba women to Estimates? [Agreed] attain economic self-sufficiency and/or eco­ nomic security, to fo ster awareness and further The Committee recessed at 3:38p.m. enhance the Government of Manitoba's efforts to provide a violence-free environment fo r women and children, to raise awareness of women's health issues and advocate for the recognition of The Committee resumed at 3:44p.m. women's needs in public health policy, to facilitate opportunities that promote positive and STATUS OF WOMEN strategic directions for youth, to educate government decision makers about the potential Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Will differential impacts of government policies and the Committee of Supply please come to order. programs. Now I am going to address each of This section of the Committee of Supply will be these issues. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4419

Economic self-sufficiency and/or economic the next generation of women to achieve full security. One key to women's empowerment in equality with their male counterparts, including today's society is, of course, the ability to use a economic equality. computer and to be able to access the Internet. Almost two thirds of the jobs in Manitoba today With a view to encouraging young women require basic computer literacy. As a result, in their teens to begin thinking about financial computer literacy is fast becoming a requirement security, the Directorate has developed Invest in for employability; yet, many adult women are Yourself. This incorporates an information not computer literate. If women are to participate booklet, which offers advice on creating a secure fully in today's technology-oriented workplace, financial foundation. It is intended to be used they need encouragement and support. There are with a curriculum guide that will soon be offered fo ur initiatives to meet these needs. in high school consumer math programs. Phases two and three of this initiative will include The Women's Directorate has developed a discussions with Education and Training basic computer training program for women program development to include the material with the support of the Employment and and other courses of study and offering the Training Services Branch of Manitoba Education program to organizations which work with and and Training. Power Up aims to maximize offer programs fo r girls. I might add women's employment opportunities through parenthetically, that this is one of the first things knowledge of computers and the Internet. that I worked on when I was appointed minister, Addressing skill shortages by providing flexible and I was very pleased to do that with the education and training options is a priority Directorate. concern shared by Manitoba business and government. Power Up teaches basic word * (15:50) processing and Internet access to women across Manitoba in 15 hours of training over a 5-week A STEP student has been hired to make period. Over 4200 women have registered for presentations to girls in middle schools on the the program since March of 1999, and to date importance of continuing studies in math and more than 2300 have completed their training. science, plus keeping open the doors to a broad spectrum of training and career choices. Trade Up to Your Future. This is a pre­ employment trades training program for women The Training for Tomorrow Scholarship developed in partnership with Manitoba Awards Program. This program gives 50 $1,000- Education and Training Employment and scholarships each yearto women entering 2-year Training Services Branch, Tech Voc High diploma programs in math, science and tech­ School and the Alliance of Manufacturers and nology courses at the province's community Exporters. This program offers five months of colleges. To date, 241 scholarships have been shops training, upgrading classes and workplace awarded, and tracking of graduates shows that readiness, followed by thirty weeks of workplace over 90 percent of recipients are employed in experience, preparing women for entry to training related jobs. apprenticeship programs in high-skill, high­ demand jobs. Women are increasingly seeking self­ The first pilot project began in September of employment. Community and economic de­ 1999 and a second is planned for September of velopment are priorities for this government. 2000. We are very pleased with the success of Toward that end, in the budget speech, Minister this program. Most women are fully employed in Selinger announced the TEAM program. This their chosen fields-welding, machining and pilot project to promote microenterprise electrical work-in fu ll-time permanent jobs. The development in northern areas will include a Directorate recognizes that today's youth, and distinct component to ensure women's partici­ female youth in particular, face unique pation in the TEAM project. The Women's challenges. While progress has been made in Directorate will be working with officials from many areas, much remains to be done to assist the Community Economic Development Fund 4420 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

and Aboriginal and Northern Affairs to develop consequential amendments act development this aspect of the program. committee. It also sits on the interdepartmental committee on fam ily violence prevention, To support women in their own business, the chaired by the fam ily violence prevention Women's Directorate has developed a mentor­ program and the change of identity in life­ ship program for business women. The program threatening situations committee. The Direct­ offers women an opportunity to interact with orate co-chairs with a community representative other business owners who offe r guidance in the domestic violence community committee. developing and maintaining viable businesses. The Directorate has also produced a quick Most recently, the Directorate conducted a reference fo r women entrepreneurs which gender-inclusive analysis of the victims' bill of describes programs and services available rights legislation to help ensure that it through the provincial government for those contemplates the circumstances of women women interested in starting their own victims as well as males since women are more businesses. This booklet is available in govern­ likely than males to be criminally victimized by ment officesacross the province. someone they know.

Together with colleagues across the country, Neighbourhoods Alive!, a new initiative Status of Women ministries are developing a recently announced by our government, is a strategic framework on women's economic long-term community-based development stra­ security and independence to help guide the tegy which will provide community organi­ work of our ministries. The Women's Directorate zations with the support they need to build their has taken an active role in this federal, provincial neighbourhoods. It will focus on housing, and territorial initiative. employment and trammg, education and recreation, as well as safety and crime Our second major goal is to foster awareness prevention. The Directorate's Keeping Safe at and further enhance the Government of Work campaign will support Neighbourhoods Manitoba's efforts to provide a violence-free Alive! by contributing to preventing criminal environment for women and children. The victimization of women in the workplace or on Directorate works to promote a strong co­ their way to and from work. The campaign was ordinated approach to public policy development developed in partnership with CIBC, the RCMP and strategies to address violence against police and Winnipeg Police Service. The women. Toward this end, the Directorate Directorate has partnered with Workplace Safe ty partners with fe deral-provincial-territorial and Health and Justice to address the sizeable counterparts to promote and share strategies that demand fo r Keeping Safe sessions within the offer support to victims and provide a strong next year. system response.

Most recently, the national focus has been Our third goal is to fac ilitate opportunities on the important area of prevention. The that promote positive and strategic directions fo r Directorate helped to develop a strategic youth. While more young women are completing framework to prevent violence against women, high school and entering universities and which was released jointly by ministers colleges than ever before, not all of their responsible fo r the Status of Women. Its purpose endeavours are positive. Young women as a was to establish common goals, principles and group are alarmingly inactive, and they represent directions to guide policy and program the only group in Canadian society where development. smoking is on the increase. The Take the Challenge initiative launched by the Women's Locally, the Directorate participates in Directorate focusses on promoting healthy and interdepartmental committees that deal with positive directions fo r young women. It includes violence issues such as the Family Violence encouraging young women to stay physically Court steering committee and the domestic active, develop healthy eating habits, stay in violence and stalking protection, prevention and school and make their educational choices fo r July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4421 themselves, which will in tum lead to their In our efforts to address the shortage of economic independence. nurses, we are very aware that too often women provide supportive care to their loved ones at the Initiatives include Do It For You in which a bedside and in nursing homes. Long term, this university student made presentations on active work can have an impact on the health of the living, disease prevention and body images to caregivers themselves. As well, women's health elementary and middle schools throughout care must be understood and included in health Winnipeg. One thousand girls between the ages care delivery. of ten and seventeen participated in the discussion and completed a survey examining Towards this end, the Directorate and their physical activity patterns. Do It For You Manitoba Health have been developing a was so successful that the Directorate is now province-wide women's health strategy. working with the Recreation and W ellness Recently, the Directorate undertook to present a Promotion Branch in the Department of Culture, day-long training session to rural health Heritage and Tourism to expand the initiative to authority staff, highlighting the importance of include a much wider rural and northern incorporating a gendered perspective into the component fo r the spring of 2000. community health needs assessments.

To raise awareness of the importance of The Directorate has also partnered with the recreation and physical activity and the barriers Manitoba Clinic to develop programs for to participation which face young girls, the women's health. The Maximizing Osteoporosis Directorate, in partnership with the Recreation Management in Manitoba project, known as and Wellness Promotion Branch, introduced MOM, works to improve the osteoporosis care Speak Up. This initiative consists of a speakers for women who have the highest risk of bureau composed of Manitoba women from developing this disease. The Lily [p honetic] various backgrounds and occupations recruited Women's Learning Centre will be a state-of-the­ to act as ambassadors to carry the message and art women's learning centre in Winnipeg, includes strategies to overcome barriers. designed to provide counselling, literature, audio-visual aids and Internet services. Its purpose is to assist women in learning about One strategy, promoted by the speakers their own health. Ultimately, Learning Centre bureau and the Directorate is On the Move, a staff will travel to locations around the province, non-competitive, alternative physical activity making presentations and sharing information model emphasizing fun, social skill building and with women outside Winnipeg. The Directorate recreational activities. Together with the serves on the steering committee for both of Recreation and Wellness Promotion Branch and these projects. the Manitoba Fitness Council, the Directorate has created opportunities in several communities * (16:00) fo r young girls to participate in the program. The Canadian Association for the Advancement of Fifth goal: To educate government decision Women in Sport funded several pilot projects. makers about the potential differential impacts of government actions. As part of its mandate to Fourth goal: To raise the awareness of promote women's equal participation in society women's health issues and advocate for public and the workplace and to inform government health policy which recognizes women's needs with regard to policy development, the Direc­ in public health policy. Health care is our biggest torate, by means of a gender-inclusive analysis, challenge in government, and Manitoba's highest seeks to identify the differential impacts on priority. The Directorate has been actively women of government legislation policies and involved in working with Manitoba Health to programs. Gender-inclusive analysis respects raise awareness within government of women's and appreciates diversity among women and lives and women's unique role in the delivery of recognizes the diffe rent roles, life experiences, health care, both regarding their families and the economic and social circumstances fac ing community. women and men. 4422 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

The Beijing Platform for Action and the budget figure of $62.9 million for this fiscal Beijing Declaration developed at the Fourth year, an increase of$9. 1 million. World Conference on Women in 1995 strongly emphasized the importance of gender-inclusive The Healthy Child Initiative will provide analysis in developing public policy and pro­ $13 million fo r services such as parent-child grams. The Women's Directorate has developed centres, prenatal and early childhood nutrition, a training program to assist governmentprogram all of which contribute to the well-being of developers and policy makers in implementing a women and their families. gender-inclusive analysis. To date, the Direc­ torate has offered both general and group­ In November, 1999, my colleagues, the specific training. As well, the Directorate has Honourable , the Honourable Gord analyzed key legislation such as the important Mackintosh, and I announced $424,000 in victims' bill of rights in order to ensure that it increased fu nding to community-based domestic reflects the circumstances of women. violence prevention services and women's shelters. This year's budget includes a 2% Government's record: Our government is increase to salaries fo r all positions in shelters, committed to furthering women's progress to full women's resource centres and second-stage equality, economic, social and legal equality housing programs and a 2% increase in vacation within our society, as well as the work and pay benefits. initiatives undertaken by the Women's Direc­ torate. Manitoba Justice has hired fo ur new Crown attorneys, and will be hiring more specialized We are advancing because of initiatives in Justice staff, fo r example, probation officers and other departments such as Family Services' victim and witness support persons. The purpose Building Independence program and the is to ensure swifter responses. increased funding to aid victims of violence. Building Independence will help women move The increase of $75 in the property tax from social assistance to the labour force and credit and the new lower income tax rates fo r participate in their communities. This program low-income fa milies will leave more money in will provide people with the tools they need to the pockets of Manitobans and remove 15 000 achieve their goals. The program includes a new low-income fam ilies from the tax rolls. These work incentive which increases the earning measures will be of particular value to women, exemption to $115 and includes an additional 25 especially those single-parent fam ilies headed by percent of net monthly earnings beyond the basic women and struggling with poverty. exemption. We believe that this positive approach is an excellent way to help women As we move fo rward in our mandate, this achieve economic independence. In this spirit, government will continue to demonstrate our we will begin July 1 to pass the increase in the dedication to making Manitoba a thriving National Child Benefit to fa milies on social community in which all of us can live, work and assistance. raise our families. Another key to the achievement of economic independence is access to affordable, quality I now have a fe w remarks to make about the child care. To this end, this government has work of the Manitoba Advisory Council. The implemented the unit fu nding model to help Manitoba Women's Advisory Council is the centres generate equitable revenue fo r all fu nded other branch within the Status of Women. Its child care fa cilities. One important fe ature of role is to be an arm's length advisory body to this approach is enabling centres to increase government on issues of concern to women and salaries to child care workers, thereby addressing to their fa milies. The council's work to enhance the problem of low wages and attracting the status of Manitoba women is accomplished additional workers. We have increased the by promoting women's equal participation in number of child care spaces to 20 000 and society and fac ilitating change in economic, - subsidized spaces to a total of 11 000, fo r a total legal and social structures. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4423

This has been a transitional year for the munity groups and government by liaising with Manitoba Women's Advisory Council, as a new over 400 individuals and organizations, chairperson was appointed in January of this continuing to do outreach to all regions of the year. Kim Clare, presently the Director and province, attending over 87 community events, Associate Professor of the Inner City Social workshops and conferences, participating on Work Program, Winnipeg Education Centre, several multidisciplinary steering committees brings to council a wealth of knowledge in the and public awareness campaigns, maintaining a educational and social science fields. Keith mailing list of over 2000 individuals and Louise Fulton, Associate Professor of English organizations, sharing best practices and and Co-ordinator of Women's Studies at the information on issues of common concern with University of Winnipeg, was appointed as a the provincial and territorial coalition of council member at the same time. Both of these women's advisory councils, and participating in women are educators, strong fe minists and have national conferences to learn and gain a national made extensive contribution to the lives and perspective on issues. For example, council rights of women. initiated and is hosting a meeting of the provincial and territorial women's advisory Under new leadership, the Council is councils and other provincial counterparts working on the development of a strategic plan working to enhance the status of women. This and evaluating its future direction. Currently, the will be held on September 17 and 18, 2000, in Advisory Council is comprised of 14 govern­ conjunction with the Women's World March ment-appointed members-pardon me, 15, we 2000. The purpose of the meeting is to share best just appointed an additional person-who are practices and develop a national agenda on representative of Manitoba's diverse population issues of concernto women. base and geographic distribution. Council's work fo cusses on improving the lives, welfare and * (16:10) status of women. Council has also undertaken work to educate There are five major areas where council the public better on the issues and research concentrates its efforts on behalf of women: developments affecting the fo rmation of public first, council facilitates the building of effective policy. Last year, council organized Lunch and and collaborative partnerships among women, Learn, community informal presentations held community organizations and government monthly, which have drawn 20 to 60 participants departments; second, council assists in better per session. Topics include: Herb Gardening fo r educating the community on research and issues Better Health; Walking for Better Health; Paying that affect the fo rmation of public policy which Yourself First-Essential Financial Tips; Girls as has an impact on women and their families; Victims in Perpetrators of Violence; The third, council provides recommendations to Domestic Violence and Stalking Prevention, government in support of the development of Protection and Compensation and Consequential gender-sensitive policies and legislation; fo ur, Amendments Acts; Midwifery; A Model of council serves as a clearing house to provincial Female Leadership; Changes in Child Care, communities by sharing information on events, Gender Bias, and Employment Insurance. resources, and programs of interest to women; five, council fu nctions as a storefront operation Council has also offered community-based that provides administrative support to not-for­ informational workshops. The second annual profit women's organizations and acts as a senior living well workshop, held over the lunch referral base to women seeking help with hour and fe aturing presentations on the proper problems. use of medications, the art and role of storytelling and physical fitness as a benefit of Council has worked diligently over the past folk dancing, is one example. It was attended by year to accomplish these work goals, and in 40 participants. doing so, to better the lives of women. Council fac ilitated the building of effective and col­ Council provided information and made laborative partnerships among women, com- recommendations to government on a variety of 4424 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

issues identified by the community as areas of and the recognitiOn of the contributions of concern. This was accomplished by giving voice women to the quality of life in Manitoba. to women's concerns and fo cussing on community liaison and outreach to women in Council has undertaken a number of ground­ Manitoba. As a result, the Council's priority breaking initiatives. For example, the annual issues are adolescent women, fo r example, sunrise breakfast to mark the anniversary date of issues like teen pregnancy, child care, the the Montreal massacre attended, by the way, by economic status of women. For example, the over 150 people this year. In collaboration with Council has been very interested in the GPI, and, government departments, community members of course, interested in poverty, violence against and service providers and non-profit organi­ women, women's health and wellness. zations, the Council has worked and continues to work on the fo llowing: a public awareness Council's work has also fo cussed on the campaign on domestic violence that resulted in fo llowing: Aboriginal women's issues, Beyond the development of TV spots, tracking the Beijing, consultation with rural women, human impact of health reform on women's health, a rights, public policy, senior women's issues, public awareness campaign on teen pregnancy sexism in the media, the sexual exploitation of that resulted in the development of a TV ad children, single parenting, women and the justice campaign, a child care regulatory review system, women's education and training needs, process, the planning of a symposium on the women's health and wellness, women who economic status of women in partnership with experience multiple disadvantages. the Women's Directorate, public development on harassment and abuse in sports, a national Some of the services provided last year by children's agenda, policy development to address the Council in its role as the provincial clearing the sexual exploitation of children that resulted house or informational resource to the com­ in the presentation of a report to the Minister of munity include the publication and distribution Finance (Mr. Selinger), the development of a of a resource guide called Parenting on Your centre fo r excellence fo r children's well-being, Own: A Handbook fo r One Parent Fam ilies, the the development of a Web site to interconnect provision of a weekly Did You Know Facts, and agencies working with women's business e-mail on information and community events of owners, the plight of incarcerated women. interest to women sent to approximately 200 community members, the provision of sponsor­ To recognize the contributions that ships to individuals of low income to attend Manitobans, particularly women, have made to informational sessions and community events of their communities, the Council has undertaken to interest to women. encourage and support the nomination of women fo r prestigious awards. It has also sponsored the It also provided sponsors with nutritional events and a number of women to attend them. breaks and tables at all events and provided Council successfully nominated two winners, informational resources. The Council provided Youth fo r Christ and Penny Roy of St. Pierre­ expertise and consultation as well as partici­ Jolys fo r the Manitoba Justice Crime Prevention pation on planning committees fo r community­ Awards. driven events and a one-stop library resource with Internet accessible to the public. As fa r as future directions, the Council will continue to work with the community on issues Fifthly, the Council has worked to ensure of concern to women and their families by maximum access fo r individual women and providing recommendations to government to women's organizations. Council operated as a support the development of gender-sensitive storefront operation by providing administrative policies in legislation, public education on support to women's not-for-profit organizations, research and issues affecting women, infor­ acting as a referral base accessed by hundreds of mational sessions and events of interest to women. The Council has expanded its work on women, consultation expertise and participation these five jorma areas to include some new on planning committees fo r community events - initiatives: the expansion of its consultative role of interest to women, support services to July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4425 individuals and non-profit women's organi­ some of which the Minister outlined in her zations, information and referral services to opening comments, some of which I have no women accessing Council's office for assistance, information on at all, and look forward to a weekly fax and e-mail list of information and receiving. upcoming events to women's organizations and interested community members and a one-stop Mr. Chairperson: We will just move right into library resource and Internet access to the public. the Estimates of the Status of Women.

After another productive year, the Council On page 136 of the Main Estimates book, looks forward to the challenge of improving the Resolution 22.1 Status of Women (a) Manitoba status of Manitoba women by advising govern­ Women's Advisory Council (1) Salaries and ment on issues of concern to women. Employee Benefits $177,300. Participating in the women's community, the Council will continue to play and key role in the Will all the staff come forward, please. We advancement of women's equality. will ask the Minister to introduce the staff.

In conclusion, I am proud of both the Ms. McGifford: I would like to introduce the Women's Directorate and the Women's Advisory staff from the Women's Directorate. First of all, Council. They have worked effectively to bring to my immediate left Theresa Harvey Pruden, information to Manitoba women and to inform who is the ADM for the Status of Women and government on women's issues of concern. I also from the Women's Directorate. With her is know both departments will continue to work Ruth Mitchell from the Women's Directorate. towards the goal of ensuring equal opportunities Seated beside Ruth is Sue Barnsley, who is the and equal participation for all Manitoba women. Executive Director of the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. Seated beside Sue, in the Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister blue, is Kim Clare, who is the chair of the responsible for the Status of Women for those Advisory Council. comments. Does the official opposition critic, the Member for Seine River, have any opening * (16:20) comments? Mr. Chair, I wonder if at this time I might Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Yes, Mr. ask the critic if she wishes to go through the Chair. I just want to make a few general Estimates line by line or what process she comments. I do not have a lengthy formal wishes to fo llow, because it could affect staff as presentation to read. I was given to understand well as her and me. that we had very limited time in this section to be able to afford other departments an Mrs. Dacquay: I do have some general opportunity to pass their Estimates. I would questions. I could defer asking them, but I do prefer that we do move into some direct want to do some line-by-line questioning of questioning. specifically some of the differences in amounts year over year. I wanted to ask some questions I recognize that the Minister in her opening relative to, I guess, both the Advisory Council remarks identified the six main goals of the and the Women's Directorate, but I believe both Manitoba Women's Directorate as outlined on are represented here. Is that correct? page 3 of the Supplementary Information on the Status of Women. Although the wording was Ms. McGifford: Yes, we have people both from changed somewhat, I believe that the intent is the Directorate and from the Advisory Council. still the same and comparable to the six main It was just merely a question of process to see if goals as outlined on page 3. I will be asking anything wasmore accommodating to the critic. some questions relative to that. I also want to commend the Women's Directorate for the good Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the Com­ work that they continue to do and look fo rward mittee just to go line by line, or have a global to learning more about the specific initiatives, discussion? 4426 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Mrs. Dacquay: I think the Minister has name to Betty Nordrum-Owen. The two indicated there would be some latitude and administrative assistants are Norma Jean Ciglar, flexibility allowable. So if I am asking a who is a SW-005, and Linda Saelens, who is an question in an inappropriate place, I would be SW-004. As I indicated earlier, the Chairperson prepared to move my question to a more is Kim Clare who is with us today. appropriate line, but I think we can start initially with the lines. I am conscious of the time as Mrs. Dacquay: I am wondering now if the well. My colleague has critic responsibilities in Minister would be flexible enough to allow my the Chamber, and she has some questions that colleague from Fort Garry to ask questions. she also wishes to ask. So I will start and ask a couple of questions, and then I will defer to the Ms. McGifford: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that would Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith). be finewith us.

Ms. McGifford: The strategy outlined by the Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Madam Member for Seine River is fine with us. Minister, I appreciate being able to intercede, and I am delighted to meet the ladies from this Mrs. Dacquay: I understand that your line by council. It is wonderfu l to see women so active line is going to start with 22.1.( a). in government affairs.

Mr. Chairperson: That is correct. Yes. I did have a question for you, because on my recent conference to Prince Edward Island there Mrs. Dacquay: I will start with my questioning were a couple of members from the opposite relative to that first line identified in the Budget, side of the House there and one member in the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. My particular made a couple of comments. I just question is there is a very slight increase year wanted to see if it was a comment made by an over year. I assume that is for statutory increases individual who maybe spoke out of turn or there, and could I please have a breakdown of maybe someone reflecting a policy statement. I the number of employees and their respective doubted it was, but I wanted to bring it up positions? because the comment was made. We were sitting around a table with people from all across Ms. McGifford: Well, I understand that there is Canada, Madam Minister, and one of the an increase in the managerial staff and that is colleagues made the statement that quoted some due to merit increases. The Executive Director is Bible verses and then said that he was confused the managerial position and the professional because men ruled over women and turned to technical position would be the policy analyst my colleague and said women are taking over and then there are 1.75, as the Member can see, things if we let them. Now we just sort of looked administrative support people in the Department. at each other and I turned to him and I said I beg So there are 3.75 people in the Manitoba your pardon, and that was about the end of the Women's Advisory Council. Remarkable con­ conversation. sidering the work they do. But seeing as this is the Status of Women, I Mrs. Dacquay: Yes, that indeed is com­ was sitting there at a national conference where mendable that 3.75 staff years can fu lfil the representation was made from a member from responsibilities of this department. the opposite side of the House and these comments were made, and I fe lt as a woman, Can the Minister please tell me, I know Sue these comments were actually made on public is the Director, who has the policy analyst record. I do not have a copy of it as of yet, but it position, and who holds the administrative will arrive. I thought that the Minister would be support position? interested in the comment. What I need to clarify is: Is this a reflection of an ambiance, a new Ms. McGifford: Yes, of course I can answer policy, or was it just some careless words that that question. The policy analyst is Betty were said? I was quite taken aback. I believe, as - Nordrum who has recently changed her last I am sure you do, that women and men are equal July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4427 and do equal jobs in the business world and Madam Minister, I have spent many years as certainly in the Government. I thought it was a junior high mathematics teacher in a world of inappropriate for such comments to be made any men and having to do a very good job, and I am place, let alone at a national conference. So very supportive of men and women in the public people sort of looked at each other and raised field. I know the Minister would not think it eyebrows, but I thought it was inappropriate. appropriate to make comments about men in that Could the Minister please comment on this? area either. If you would be so kind, Mr. Chair, to advise the Minister that I could pass on the * (16:30) public comments to her. Seeing as we represented Manitoba-there were four of us who represented Manitoba-! think we do have to be Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I will comment very appropriate in our remarks. I would like to briefly. I think I have been talking at some inform the Minister that the four representatives length about the work that the Women's from Manitoba, except for this one incident, I Directorate do and the work that the Manitoba think represented Manitoba very much. In Women's Advisory Council do. I think I have particular, I did not make an issue of it at the been indicating that both departments are conference because I thought that it was not committed to the equal and full participation of appropriate to do that, but there were a couple of women in our society, and I think I talked about comments made and eyebrows raised. commitment in the economic sphere, in the domestic sphere, in the social sphere. So, Mr. Chair, giving the Minister I think the actual comments when they come, perhaps I do want to assure the Member for Fort the Minister could sit quietly with the Member Garry that I have been personally active in the and talk to the person involved and suggest very women's movement for too many years than I strongly that we are very careful about how we wish to remember because it just seems to go on address women and women's issues at a public and on. No matter how much work one does, conference or in private. Thank you. there is always more work to do. So I do want to assure her of my ongoing support to the full and Ms. McGifford: I will certainly look forward to equal participation of women. It has been one of receiving the information from the Member for the goals in my life. It is one of the things that Fort Garry, but I invite her, as well, to address brought me to politics. It is one of the things that this individual. I think two voices are always I continue to work on. better than one. I do not know who the individual is. I will, in due course, learnwho that I do not know who this person is. I do not person is and read the remarks. I am sure the know the context, and I really do not want to Member for Fort Garry might want to take the comment on comments reported to have been opportunity, as well, to address this member. made by one of my colleagues at another event. But I do respect the Member for Fort Garry's Perhaps we could leave it at that. However, wanting to know of this government's if the Member wishes to continue the conver­ commitment, and that, I can assure her, is, in sation, I would be happy to do that as well. fact, a reality. Mrs. Smith: I thank the Minister very much for Mrs. Smith: I thank the Minister very much for those comments. I think her suggestion is very that comment. Seeing as the comments were put well advised. I think it would be a great idea for on public record, when I do get a copy of it, maybe the two of us to sit down with this perhaps, Madam Minister, I could give you a individual. I have deliberately not named the copy of that. Perhaps sitting around the caucus individual, but I would like to sit down-and in table, the Minister could appropriately suggest places, I have to reiterate, where we represent that when we are at national conferences that Manitoba we want to stand united. women not be put down in this manner. I am sure the intent was not to do that. I would We may be sitting on separate sides of the assume the intent was not to do that. House, but we are united in the fact that we are 4428 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 all women and we have worked very hard to be Ms. McGifford: Well, I thank the Member for where we are. I acknowledge the man's role is her advice. I think that it is good advice. I think equally as important. I just want to make sure that I may well talk to the Premier (Mr. Doer) that it is clear on the record that we are all in this about it. It is something that has been on my together. agenda. I am sure that the Member understands that this is an initiatory year and that I have a Ms. McGifford: Well, just one final comment. I very rigorous and demanding schedule. But it is do not know whether my strategy will be to sit something that has been at the back of my mind. down. It might be to stand up and wag my I thank the Member fo r bringing it to the fr ont. finger, I do not know yet. I was suggesting that both of us may wish to behave as we see fit. But Mrs. Dacquay: I thank the Minister fo r her I thank. again, the Member fo r her being here response. I am encouraged by the fact I this afternoon. recognize that when you are new in a role, particularly a cabinet minister or Speaker or Mrs. Smith: My point was not how we do it but whatever, there is lots to learn in a very short that we do it together in a respectful manner, and period of time. Then when you are thrust I thank the Minister fo r that. immediately into session, there are additional responsibilities as well, and one never has Mrs. Dacquay: On page 3 under the Manitoba enough hours in the day. But I am encouraged Women's Directorate, there are two very specific by the Minister's response and that she will goals. One is No. 2: that facilitates opportunities assume some responsibility fo r broaching the that promote healthy lifestyle choices fo r youth, issue. If she needs any assistance in being and No. 5: women's health issues and advocate extremely persuasive, I am sure that the women for recognition of women's needs in public on our side of the House would be more than health policy. prepared to offer support in any way we could.

To that end. as I believe the Minister is Ms. McGifford: Yes, just briefly, I think that as aware, particularly the women on the Opposition the Member probably knows, the way cabinet side of the House were very concerned that committees work is that there are usually more when the new Healthy Child Initiative was positions than there are people. I have every struck, that there were no women, fe male confidence that the Premier will respond very Cabinet ministers sitting at that table. positively to the idea that I should sit on that committee. My question to the Minister is: Has the * (16:40) Minister raised this with the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the members of that committee to see if Mrs. Dacquay: Relative now to the health there could be some rethinking that perhaps in issues, particularly health issues fo r women, her role as Minister responsible fo r the Status of when the Minister was in opposition, she Women, the Committee could be expanded so periodically asked questions of the then minister that she could be included on that committee? of Health regarding cervical cancer screening and the lack of a program. Additionally in May I I feel strongly that women bring a different believe of last year, she introduced a Member's perspective to a number of issues. I am not Resolution No. 10 in which she was requesting questioning the capability or the credibility of that provincial cervical cancer screening be put any of the ministers at the table. I just, in place. personally, and I know it is the feeling of the fe male members on the opposition side, fe el that I have made a number of inquiries. I perhaps the women's and children's perspective understand the program is not yet in place. My would be better represented if indeed the question to the Minister is: Has she met with the Minister, in particular, were at the table, but if Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) to once again that is not possible, any fe male minister. promote this very overdue and very urgent - July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4429 program for the benefit of all women in what type of information, not in terms of Manitoba? necessarily content, but just sort of generically, what the information will include and what the Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, just to respond first process for dissemination of that information of all to the Member's inquiry as to whether I will be? have met with the Minister of Health, I have met with the Minister of Health on several occasions Ms. McGifford: The two parts of the program, and on several issues. My staff do assure me that the public education component and the the Cervical Cancer Screening Program was visitation component, will be rolled out announced last fall and it is rolling out, which I concurrently and are being rolled out take to mean that it is not completely up and concurrently so that neither public education nor running, but it is in the process. It is on its way visitation is being lionised, but they are viewed to being so. So we see that as an important as equal. initiative. I am sure the Member agrees that cervical cancer screening is extremely important. Some of the challenges, as I am sure the Member understands, in education and in public Mrs. Dacquay: Does the Minister have any time education are reaching those groups who need lines fo r the commencement of this program? the education, or whose need is greatest. Aboriginal women are apparently quite at risk, Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, staff advise me that presumably because they do not seek the tests as the Cervical Cancer Screening Program has two frequently as some other groups of women components. One is the public education might. So the education component will strive to component. The public education component make itself available and accessible to these will encourage women to seek cervical cancer women. screening. The second one is a visitation program. By that it is visitation throughout the One of the struggles, of course, is to fm d province in the sense that the travelling information that is appropriate, that is culturally mammogram breast screening unit travelled sensitive. Efforts are being made in this regard. throughout the province. Staff advise me that The information will be basically talking to this will be up and running at the point of women about the importance of having the completion by the end of the calendar year. cervical test and urging them to have the cervical test. I am told that the information will be by I might add that I am sure if the Member pamphlet and not likely to be, at this point wanted more exact information, the Minister of anyway, video or television information. Health (Mr. Chomiak) would welcome a letter from her seeking, or, alternately, my staff would Mrs. Dacquay: Is the Women's Directorate be quite willing to seek that information for the currently advocating for any other public health Member and send it to her when they have it, if policies that there is some urgency for, that they she would like. feel have not been previously addressed?

Mrs. Dacquay: I thank the Minister for that Ms. McGifford: The Women's Directorate is response. I particularly thank the staff for their currently working collaboratively with the indication of support and assistance. I plan to ask Department of Health on a comprehensive health the Minister in Health Estimates. I have just not strategy for women. The goal of the work here is had an opportunity to get in there yet, but I will to ensure that the needs of women are taken into be asking the Minister of Health. I just did not consideration by regional health authorities want to go in there without first consulting with when they do their planning. the Minister to see if indeed, because of her personal concerns and issues raised when she Mrs. Dacquay: Does the Minister or the was in opposition, she had indeed pursued it. If I Directorate have any concerns relative to the understand the response correctly, the public number of female physicians that are currently information campaign would precede the actual practising in Manitoba? Does she have a position screening program. Can the Minister indicate relative to preference for more female 4430 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 practitioners? I speak specifically now from I will move now to another issue that I want some women I have spoken to who feel very to address, and that is the safe environment for intimidated by male practitioners, particularly women and a violence-free environment. when it comes to their hygienic health. I know Recently the issue that was first raised relative to that, at one point in time, and I do not know the video game classification. That legislation what the current statistics are, there was a push was passed only, as I recall, when the Minister to encourage more fe male practitioners. was in opposition. She did not feel that the video game classification was defined clearly enough. * (16:50) It is now raising its ugly head. I understand that British Columbia has introduced legislation Ms. McGifford: I share the concerns of the more recently to deal with this. It is becoming ever increasingly an issue in the community. Member opposite. I know many women, sometimes for cultural reasons, sometimes for personal reasons, do prefer to see women Many parents, even though they are well­ intended and think they are very devoted to physicians. I certainly understand that. In fact, I have a female physician myself, fo r what it is overseeing their children's activities, find that it does not take very long sometimes to click down worth. I will just put that down. I am advised by and find some of this information or for a friend the Directorate that 50 percent of the current to give them a copy of this video that they use graduates are women and that women are well when Mom and Dad are not around. I know represented among family physicians in the there are even more, in my opinion, graphic, province, although we could always do with violent, and pornographic videos available that more women. Let us all encourage women to seem to be able to be very readily accessible. become doctors and to provide services fo r Has the Minister been working with the women. Directorate and cabinet to deal with this issue?

That is perhaps an interesting initiative that Ms. McGifford: Well, first of all, we had better we could pass on to the Advisory Council. I can back up because, indeed, no legislation was see Kim is listening. I certainly concur that we passed on video game classification. I believe it need as many women as women need to provide was about a year ago that the issue was part and the services that women want from women. parcel of deliberations in the Legislature. I Maybe I will just be quiet now. believe what happened was there was some legislation that would allow the classification of DVDs and other kind of media. I did, as the Mrs. Dacquay: I appreciate the Minister's Member knows, speak several times about the response. It is a very sensitive issue. Many importance, in my opinion, of classifying video women have very strong fe elings relative to that. games. I did considerable research on video They ignore going for regular check-ups, even as games, and discovered that video games are a preventive measure. classified, fo r example, in Australia, and video games are classified in Britain. Having had the luxury of finding a female practitioner, I feel that they fe el much more What the former minister of, and then it was comfortable with-quite often they have a fam ily called Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, advo­ doctor, and they just pursue that family doctor cated fo r was the industry-based classification for years on end. As they age, in particular, they and a public awareness scheme. In other words, should become more conscious of annual she was working to bring to the attention of physicals, et cetera. They sometimes brush that parents the information that is available on all aside because they do find it embarrassing and video games whether they are rented. Now I intimidating. I have a female practitioner, and I think it is available on all. Most of them, the am much more diligent in pursuing my regular majority, whether they are rented or whether physicals than I was, I have to confess, when I they are sold, there is a line that gives some - had a male practitioner. I think it is just part and advice on that video game. The former minister parcel of a woman's chemistry somehow. was working on a public awareness campaign so July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 443 1 that there were various displays in stores that person could go to an area where there is no rented videos, and I think more often than in classification at all, buy several video games and stores that sold videos. I did a little research at come back here. Now a person could do that the time. I cannot remember seeing any of the with videos too, and therefore avoid the classifications. I think E, S, C or B, were the classification system that prevails in Manitoba. I names of this industry-based rating system. I have no facts to base this on, but I would think cannot remember seeing any information in any that an individual would be more likely to buy of the stores that sold videos, for example, K­ video games than videos. Mart or whatever. I do not know the names of stores because my husband does all the One of the other complexities with video shopping. games is they can be downloaded from the Net. So, yes, there are technical difficulties in the Leaving that aside, yes, I am very concerned classification of video games, but other about video game classification. I have not jurisdictions are working on it. That is why I am worked with the Directorate. The department very interested in seeing what evolves in B.C. that I am working with is the Film Classification and studying it very seriously in this province. Board that would ultimately be the body that would classify video games. I have asked staff to * (17:00) keep in close contact with colleagues in B.C. We are fo llowing very, very intently what happens Mrs. Dacquay: I believe when I was listening to in B.C., and we will certainly be examining that. her opening remarks, she identified some So I have not worked with the Directorate on initiatives through the Women's Directorate, new this issue. It is something that we could certainly programs I am not familiar with. I wonder if that get advice from the Directorate about, however, information could be made available to me? I or from the Advisory Council. So thank you for guess my question is, if they are specificallynew bringing it up. programs that vary from previous programs, could the Minister identify what they are? There Mrs. Dacquay: Thank you to the Minister. I were a couple. It may just be that I do not have recognize that there is probably some difficulty that specific information. around the technicalities of implementing a classification program, as I understand it, for Ms. McGifford: Of course, we have mentioned videos. It is much easier with movies than it is Trade Up to Your Future, which is a trades with the actual video games. program for women. The one that is brand-new, and I think I did indicate that in reading, was the You indicated that the former minister was Power Up computer and Internet training working on an awareness program for parents. initiative, pardon me, the Invest in Yourself, the Was that directive being initiated through the one I talked about as being financial intelligence, Women's Directorate? What is the status of that, literacy, expertise. Literacy is probably the best if that is the case? word for young women since young women are notoriously unconcerned about their financial Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, that was a timed futures. initiative that was conducted through the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizen­ If the Member would like a copy of the ship. I do not believe that the Women's materials, we would certainly be wilJing to send Directorate or the Manitoba Advisory Council those to her. were ever brought into those deliberations. Mrs. Dacquay: I would like to thank the The Member makes an interesting point and Minister, and I would sincerely appreciate that is distinguishing between video games and receiving that information. videos, because, of course, video games are more easily, I suppose, transferable than videos, Also, she identified a bursary program or people tend to buy video games more readily towards a two-year diploma program at the than they might buy videos. For example, a community college, and I wonder if I could have 4432 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 that information. Also, I have a question with receive any of this printed information. Some of regard to that. Is that program age restricted, us know who to call and how to get this number one, is my first question? Secondly, is information. Others, as I say, do not necessarily that information disseminated through the high know that. I know periodically, at least in my schools in particular? instance, I do get calls from women wanting to know what program is available and how they Ms. McGifford: No, it is not age restrictive. The access that program or what the criteria are for material goes to Seniors 1 through 4. Also, it is that program. available through the community colleges. There is a pamphlet, brochure, booklet which we will Ms. McGifford: I certainly have all the send to the Member when we send other materials available in my constituency office, for materials. example, because women drop by, and they are interested in this material and what is happening. Mrs. Dacquay: I also wanted to know if the I think, if MLAs really want the material for mentorship program for women in business that their constituency offices or for their own the Minister spoke about has had changes made purposes, they will make the effort to find out to it, or is it comparable to the fo rmer program? about it and obtain it.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I was very pleased Having said that, the Directorate does advise to announce the mentorship program for women me that it is not really a problem to make it entrepreneurs. It was one of the first things that I available to MLAs. It is just that I have did as Minister for the Status of Women. questions about sending over, I do not know how many different pamphlets we have, 57 times and The announcement was made in October, them not being used. Why do we not ask the which is Manitoba Women in Business Week. Member opposite to speak to her caucus? We No, it has not changed since then. There may be can send her examples of everything that is changes. We are always in the process of available, and you might send a memo around to learning and refining our ideas and ways of members of your caucus. Those who are working. If the Member wishes to keep apprised interested could put in a request, and then we of any changes, we will endeavour to keep her could fill it. That certainly is something that the informed. Directorate would be prepared to do.

Mrs. Dacquay: My next question is, and I do Mrs. Dacquay: Just fo r fear of the Minister not know if this practice is fo llowed or not, but misunderstanding my request, my request was does the Women's Directorate make all of this specifically fo r new initiatives. I know some information, particularly when there are new programs are ongoing, and I think most of us programs, readily available to all members of the who have concerns or who have concerned Legislative Assembly? constituents have made ourselves available of that. I have to confess that, when the Minister Ms. McGifford: Certainly, Mr. Chair. These are mentioned a couple of the most recent public documents, and anybody who requests initiatives, I do not fe el well versed on those them of the Directorate is certainly welcome to initiatives. It was just in the form of a suggestion those materials. when some of this new material becomes available. Mrs. Dacquay: I guess my question is more specific than that. I am aware of that, but, as we Ms. McGifford: Apparently, I am told that all all know, MLAs are very busy. Some read the new programs are described in About Wom en, news releases and everything that comes across which goes out twice a year. So members can be their desk more thoroughly than other members. apprised through that, but we will be very I am just wondering, because I fe el strongly pleased to send any copies of materials to do about these initiatives and programs, if just as a with any new initiatives to the Member so that - matter of advice, that perhaps, or a matter of she has them and knows about those programs. I practice, the Directorate ensure that MLAs think it is important that all Manitobans have the July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4433 opportunity to find out about the work we are Mrs. Dacquay: Once again, I have the doing. supplement only, not the full book. I just wonder if the Chairman can provide me some assistance. * (17:10) I am on page 8 in the Supplementary Information. My next line indicates 22.1.(b), Mrs. Dacquay: Also, in the Minister's which is the Manitoba Women's Directorate introductory statement, and I will read Hansard staffing line, 493.1. The first figure I agree with, to get all of the specifics and details later, she and we passed it, but now my next line is mentioned a meeting or a conference in different. conjunction with the Women's Walk scheduled for September 17 and 18. Sorry, I did not note Mr. Chairperson: I would like to inform the this. Is this a directive of the Women's Member that that is the next line under Women's Directorate or the Women's Advisory Council, Directorate. We will come to that. We first have or are they both involved, and can she give me a to pass 22.1.( a)(2) Other Expenditures before we few more specifics? do that line.

Ms. McGifford: It is the initiative of the 22.1. Status of Women (a) Manitoba Manitoba Women's Advisory Council, but the Women's Advisory Council (2) Other Expen­ Women's Directorate is peripherally involved. ditures $119,400-pass. My understanding is that the walk is on the Sunday, which is September 16, and that the We will move on to 22. 1. (b) Women's conference will take place two days after that, Directorate (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits the 18th of September, so two days after but one $493,100. Shall the line pass? day. Mrs. Dacquay: Could the Minister please Mrs. Dacquay: Is there information available on explain why there is a slight decrease year over that, in terms of program and program costs, et year in the total Salaries andEmployee Benefits cetera? line?

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, this is not a public Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, it is to do withthe meeting. It is a meeting of the coalition of reversal of the two-day salary accrual and advisory councils, provincial, territorial, and changes in employee benefits. meeting in Winnipeg this time. There are no costs. It is being sponsored by the Manitoba Mr. Chairperson: Line 22. 1. (b) Women's Women's Advisory Council here in Winnipeg. It Directorate (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits is not a public conference, although I am sure $493,100-pas s; (2) Other Expenditures that I will receive information on what takes $21 5,500. Shall the line pass? place, and I could certainly share it with the Member. Mrs. Dacquay: Under Other Operating there is a reasonable reduction. I wondered if the Mrs. Dacquay: I am prepared to move now to Minister could explain what constitutes that the actual 22.1. appropriation, so we need to pass reduction year over year. 22.1.(a), I believe, and I have one question on 22.1 .(b). Ms. McGifford: There was $59,000 in non­ Mr. Chairperson: We will turn to page 136 of recurring expenditures for a women's conference our Main Estimates book. Resolution 22.1. that took place before the Pan Am Games last Status of Women (a) Manitoba Women's year, and also a 5% government-wide reduction Advisory Council (1) Salaries and Employee of the average cost of the last fo ur years of Benefits $177,300-pass; (2) Other Expenditures program promotion expenditures which was 1.7, $119,400. Shall the line pass? for a total of60.7. 4434 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Mr. Chairperson: Line 22.I. Status of Women The Committee resumed at 5:23p.m. (b) Women's Directorate (2) Other Expenditures $2I5,500-pass; (3) Grants $104,000-pass. CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION

Resolution 22.1: RESOLVED that there be Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Would the Committee of Supply please come to $I,I09,300 fo r the Status of Women for the order. This section of the Committee of Supply fiscal year ending the 3Ist day of March, 200 I. will be considering the Estimates of the Department of the Civil Service Commission. Resolution agreed to. Does the Honourable Minister responsible Resolution 22.2: RESOLVED that there be for the Civil Service Commission have an granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding opening statement? $27,900 for the Status of Women, Amortization of Capital Assets $27,900 for the fiscal year Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister responsible fo r ending the 3Ist day of March, 200 I. the Civil Service): Mr. Chair, I have a brief opening statement. Resolution agreedto. In introducing the Budget Estimates for the This concludes the-oh, question first? Civil Service Commission for 2000-2001, I draw attention to the Supplementary Estimates Mn. Dacquay: Ifl may, Mr. Chair, I would just information which have been provided and like to put a brief statement on the record. I do contain a good deal of organizational program not want it to be perceived in any way that I did and financial information to assist the members not do justice to the Status of Women. I of the Estimates review now before us. probably could have spent three days on some of these lines, but with due fairness to my Members will note that the responsibilities colleagues and other departments that have not of the Civil Service Commission for 2000-2001 been given an overview by the respective critics, have changed from previous years. As a result of I just wanted to say that it is not that I (a) was an organizational change, the Labour Relations not prepared or (b) was not willing. It is just, in Division has been transferred from the Civil fairness to my colleagues, I have been asked to Service Commission to the Department of be co-operative and not spend as much time as I Finance, and now reports to the Treasury Board dearly would have liked to have had on Secretariat. This transfer gives the Minister of questions in both Status of Women and Advisory Finance fu ll control and accountability over the Council. I would like to thank the Minister for significant financial impacts associated with the her co-operation and her responsiveness to some collective bargaining, pension and employee of the issues that I thought were priority issues, benefits administration, position classification in my opinion, that I raised. and other compensation related issues, all of which are housed within the Labour Relations Mr. Chairperson: This concludes the Estimates Division. for the Status of Women. The Civil Service Commission retains its We will now continue with the Estimates of responsibilities under The Civil Service Act for the Civil Service Commission. oversight of the merit principle, the quasi­ judicial appeal function, recruitment and Is it the will of the Committee to recess until staffing, employment equity, employee assis­ the Minister and critic arrive? [A greed] Thank tance, organization and staff development and you. We will recess for about fiveminutes. support to the central Human Resource Management Information System.

The Committee recessed at 5:20p.m. .- As a result of the transfer of the Labour Relations Division, 22 fu ll-time equivalents, July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4435

$1 ,23 7,400 in salary and $318, I 00 in operating l.(b) Administrative Services (I) Salaries expenses have been transferred to the and Employee Benefits $597,000--pass; (2) Department ofFinance. Other Expenditures $287 ,500--pass.

This leaves the Civil Service Commission 1.( c) Human Resource Management with a total of 70 fu ll-time equivalents. Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits However, it should be noted that 32 of these are $1,15 2,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures utilized for hiring interns for government's $650,400--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from various management internship initiatives. As a other appropriations ($67 ,600}-pass; (d) result, this direct staff complement available to Organization and Staff Development Agency. resource the Civil Service Commission is 38 fu ll-time equivalents. Resolution 17.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty, a sum not exceeding The Commission's budget is comprised of $2,854,300 for Civil Service Commission for the $1,924,300 for salaries and $1,031,I 00 for fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 200 I. operating, for a total of $2,955,400, which represents the Estimates now before us. Resolution agreed to.

With these very brief remarks, Mr. Chair, I Resolution 17.2: RESOLVED that there be would now be happy to respond to any questions granted to Her Majesty, a sum not exceeding on the Civil Service Commission Estimates, its $10I, I 00 for Civil Service Commission, programs and activities. Amortization of Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 200 I. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission for Resolution agreed to. those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the Member for Springfield, have any This concludes the Estimates of the Civil opening comments? Service Commission. What is the will of the Committee? Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I would like to thank the Minister for her comments, and we are Some Honourable Members: Committee rise. prepared to proceed with the Estimates. Mr. Chairperson: The will of the Committee is Mr. Chairperson: Would the Minister's staff to rise. Agreed and so ordered. like to join the Minister at the table here? HEALTH Ms. Barrett: Mr. Chair, I would like to introduce Bob Pollock, who is the Director of * (15:00) Human Resource Programs, and Mr. Ray Chase, who is the Director of Management Information The Acting Chairperson (Ms. Marianne and Support Services. Cerilli): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Mr. Chairperson: We will begin our Estimates Supply meeting in Room 255 will now resume of the Civil Service Commission on page 32 of consideration of the Estimates for the the Main Estimates book. Department of Health.

Resolution 17.I. Civil Service Commission Consideration of these Estimates left off on (a) Executive Office (1) Salaries and Employee page 91 of the Estimates book, Resolution 21.4. Benefits $174,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures Health Services Insurance Fund. The floor is $59,700--pass. now open for questions. 4436 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Madam waiting lists to construe fo r whatever end she Chairperson, I wonder if the Minister has any construes them fo r, and I am prepared for that. information to table that has been requested over the past several weeks. I know that we have been But we are providing that information on the waiting almost from the beginning fo r certain basis that we recognize what the issues are, and items, and I wonder if the Minister is able to we have done more in that regard than any bring some of that information fo rward now. government previous, and we are happy to provide that information. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Madam Chairperson, I am very pleased that we The Member requested the number and are providing more information, varied infor­ nature of FIPPA, that is freedom of information mation, than was ever provided to critics during requests received since fo rming the Government. the Estimates process under Health. I am very I have been advised the Department has received happy that that process is taking place, and I approximately 45 requests for access to hope the Member appreciates the fact that this information. A sample of those requests are: information is more forthcoming than it has ever breakdown of submissions to Pharmacare fo r been in the Department of Health since the time oxygen as well as total dollar claims for the last that I became critic in 1993 until 1999. I can fiscal year, Urban Shared Services contract assure the Member, I am still waiting fo r information, listing of Manitoba drug standards information from the various years to be and therapeutic committee members positions fo rwarded. held, as well as members curriculum vitae, actual am ounts spent fo r the provision of all The Member requested whether or not diagnostic laboratory procedures per capita, CancerCare is still short of radiation therapists, listing of surgical facilities in Manitoba andI am advised that of the 44.51 EFT radiation providing endoscopic, ophthalmological or therapist positions, 7.9 FTEs are vacant. As well, orthopedic procedures, which facilities receive there are vacancies of 7 medical physicists, and fe es from Health, copies of all contracts recruitment processes continue fo r filling regarding a payment of fac ility fee, listing vacancy positions in radiation therapists and designated psychiatrists appointed by the medical therapists at CancerCare Manitoba. Minister of Health and their location in the mental health system. This is an example of the type of The Member requested information on the information that was never given out by mem­ role of DPIN to hospital ERs, and information bers opposite when we were in government. It on the evaluation of DPIN pilot projects in was literally not provided, Madam Chairperson, hospital ER sites. December 1998 and January to us when I was the opposition critic. We are 1999, the DPIN system was implemented in five providing that information notwithstanding I am sites: St. Boniface, Seven Oaks in Winnipeg and aware of the fact that clearly a government that hospitals in Beausejour, Brandon and is prepared to admit to what the circumstances Thompson. are is probably a more-informed and a better government. When I used to ask questions about The implementation of these model sites led waiting lists, fo r example, members opposite to a province-wide implementation of the DPIN denied, denied there were waiting lists. They did system. This implementation started during the not exist. They did not exist, and they were not summer of 1999. The system has currently been provided. implemented in 81 hospitals across the province, in hospital emergency rooms and admitting We, obviously, during the election cam­ areas. Three additional sites requiring satellite paign, raised the issue of waiting lists, as we had connections will be implemented later this for several years, something the members summer. These locations include: Churchill, opposite had denied. Now that we have been Leaf Rapids and Lynn Lake. These satellite providing information with respect to waiting location implementations conclude the project - lists, I know that the Member utilizes those role of DPIN. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4437

The one-time funding identifies for costs $57,000; step 3 is $59,400; step 4 is $6I,650; incurred to complete the rollout and the ongoing step 5 is $63,850. For midwives north of the funding costs are to support the provincial data 53rd parallel: step I is $62,080; step 2 is network required to support the DPIN system. $64,420; step 3 is $67,230; step 4 is $69,830, The evaluation process included a process where step 5 is $72,730. facilitators received fe edback from clinicians and staff through surveys and site visits. This The Member asked about physician information was documented and recapped for a availability in Erickson. The note says the joint working session, which was held in mid­ Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) June, with site representatives where the asked. The Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) is information was shared. present. Did the Member for Russell ask about the physician availability in Erickson? The model site experience confirmed that providing DPIN retail dispensing history to Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Madam hospital emergency rooms and patient Chair, that question was asked by the Member registration system appeared to be useful in for Minnedosa. I was not present at the time he health benefits. Some of the top benefits that asked it. were outlined to be achieved in the hospital were: the patient's problems appear to be Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I wonder if understood more quickly, thereby providing the you could convey or I will try to convey to the ability for faster and more appropriate treatment Member for Minnedosa that I will review this of patterns and medication use, misuse, overuse matter with him with respect to this particular and some abuse were identified; prescribing item. unnecessary medications or providing inappro­ priate treatments were avoided; identification of Mr. Derkach: Madam Chair, if the Member has conditions and disorders that the patient failed to it, if the Member would also provide it for my provide, and it improved the quality of medical benefit as well, perhaps at our next sitting, history. because that is the community that I represent now. The Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) asked about the nursing Recruitment * (15:IO) and Retention Fund. Of the 39 submissions from nurse participants, how many of these were Mr. Chomiak: On July 13, the Member for acted upon? Of the 39 submissions from nurse Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) requested that the participants or advice provided, over 30 have grants and awards made by the Manitoba Health been acted on to date. These include approval of Research Council be tabled. I am tabling a copy funding for relocation assistance, development of the I998-99 Annual Report prepared by the support and delivery of speciality programs, Manitoba Health Research Council. It was tabled recruitment initiatives including advertising the in the Legislature December 13, I999, and the tenets at nursing job fairs, nursing refresher grants and the awards are outlined within that programs, forgivable loans to students presently document. I have copies for tabling. enrolled in nursing programs, LPN bridging, community education initiatives. The nursing To continue, the Member for Emerson (Mr. Recruitment and Retention Fund committee Jack Penner) requested information on what continues to receive the remaining issues related plans there are for a greater degree of to information data, career planning, positive permanency for the physicians and nursing image of nursing, quality of work life and child services in Sprague. I am advised that with the care. completion of one full year of operation of the East Borderland Primary Health Care Centre in The Member for Charleswood requested the Sprague, the needs of the area determine that salary scale of four midwives. The salary scale physician services have been established and fo r midwives, I am advised for midwives south remain as: Provision of one day of service per of the 53rd parallel: step I is $55,000; step 2 is week on an itinerant basis from Vita to the 4438 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 primary health care centre in Sprague. This is a The appointed members include Tom permanent 'expectation based on the physician's Carson, Deputy Minister of Manitoba Culture, contract with the South Eastman Regional Heritage and Tourism; Sue Hicks, Associate Health Authority. Deputy Minister, External Programs/Operations, Manitoba Health; Arthur Mauro, Counsel for The current community health nurse Aikins, MacAulay & Thorvaldson and component, consisting of two nurses, each in a Chancellor of ; Calvin .70 EFT position, 1.5 total, who provide com­ Tant, CEO of Burntwood Regional Health munity health and primary care nursing services Authority; Rick Dedi, Assistant Deputy in the Community of Sprague, as well as the Minister, Insured Benefits, Pharmacare and R.M. ofPiney, will continue. Labour Market Services, Manitoba Health; Ben Levin, Deputy Minister of Education, Manitoba The Member for Charleswood also Education and Training; Daniel Friedman, requested information on the status of the Bureau of Health Statistics, Massachusetts preoperative nursing course. The Nurses Department of Public Health, Boston, Recruitment and Retention Fund allocated Massachusetts; Gary Glavin, Associate Vice funding to the RHA Surgery Program to support President of Research, University of Manitoba; 14 students throughout the Preoperative Nursing Alan Katz, Assistant Professor, Family Program, which ran from October 1999 to Medicine, University of Manitoba; John Miller, March 2000. All of the 14 students enrolled Vice President, Canadian Institute for Health completed the program, I am advised, in March Information; J. Fraser Mustard, President of The 2000. Approval has also been given to utilize Founders' Network, Toronto; John Wade, fu nding to run a second Preoperative Nursing Professor, Department of Anesthesia and Program in September 2000. Ten students have Community Health Services, University of been accepted into this intake. The Fund has also Manitoba. allocated funding to the Brandon Regional Health Authority to support eight students I should point that the immediate six throughout the preoperative nursing program. individuals that I referenced were appointees Four students completed the program, which ran from the University of Manitoba, Madam from October 1999 until March 2000. The Chairperson. remaining four students will begin the program in September 2000. The Member asked for contract templates with respect to the Department. Again, this type Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski, Chairperson, in the of information has not been provided in the past. Chair I am providing the alternate funding model template fo r primary health care as well as the Madam Chairperson, the Member fo r template fo r midwives. The draftsample is draft. Charleswood requested her list of board I should point out that the template for midwives members for the Manitoba Centre fo r Health is draft and reflects continued work in progress, Policy and Evaluation. The chair of the Health as we work on that. I have copies to provide for Policy and Evaluation is Dr. Brian Postl. The ex the Member. officio members are Noralou Roos, Charlyn Black, co-directors; the Manitoba Centre fo r Madam Chairperson: Are you tabling this? Health Policy and Evaluation, Ron Hikel, the Acting Deputy Minister of Health; Les Roos, Mr. Chomiak: Yes, I am tabling copies of those Director of the Manitoba Health Data Base, particular items, Madam Chairperson. Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation; Kue Young, Head ofthe Department of Community Health Sciences, Faculty of The Member requested information with Medicine, University of Manitoba; Don Potter, respect to pilot projects being undertaken by representative from Treasury Board; and Brian primary health care. Primary health care is Hennen, Dean of the Faculty of Medicine, engaged in two pilot projects, namely, the - University ofManitoba. Community Nurse Resource Centres and the July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4439

Centre de Sante St. Boniface. The Community The Member asked about the 4% decrease in Resource Centres focus on primary nursing care, the Healthy Communities Development appro­ health promotion and disease prevention, priation, Madam Chairperson. The transfer of community development and outreach, and the palliative care program to the Community research that is supporting evidence-based and Mental Health Services comprehensive practice for centres currently operating or in the program and the Long Term Care Services planning stages with varying staff patterns. They program; and the remote fetal alcohol program are the St. Vital CNRC in Winnipeg consisting to the Acute Care Services; and the ongoing of primary care nurses, dietitian and family costs of the tobacco reduction enforcement to the counsellor; the Burntwood CNRC in Thompson Public Health branch reflects the ongoing comprised of primary care nurses, Aboriginal commitment to those programs. In fact, what liaison worker, recreation worker, dietitian and happened was those programs moved from the fam ily counsellor; the Parkland CNRC in Healthy Communities to actual program line Ethelbert, Pine River, primary care nurse, items of the Department of Health, and the $8.3 itinerant staff and contractual physician fo r one million was reduced to $8 million, based on day every two weeks; the NOR-MAN CNRC at previous spending patterns. The Pas and Flin Flon, similar staffing mix as Burntwood. The Member also asked how many sonographers we are short. I am advised there are five positions which are a mix of full time, The later two facilities are in their part time and temporary. The ultrasound class developmental stages while the St. Vital CNRC presently in training have seven graduates in has been operational for three years. The Centre August 2000. The Department of Health is de Sante St. Boniface opened July 1999 and providing additional funding to increase the fo cussed on the PHC needs of the Francophone annual volume ofultrasounds tests this year. The population within Winnipeg and the English­ Member should be aware that urgent cases are speaking population within the St. Boniface always prioritized and seen immediately, which catchment area. For its three-year pilot stage this has always been the practice of the Department facility has been situated within the St. Boniface of Health. Hospital. The staffing mix consists of primary care physicians, primary care nurses, a social At this point, Madam Chairperson, that worker, dietitian, community outreach worker concludes my summary of information requests. and a mental health worker. The Centre is governed by a community board consisting of Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister indicate for the founding organizations of the Grey Nuns of me when he will be forwarding information on Manitoba, College universitaire de Saint­ the number of ICU beds closed in the city and Boniface, the Societe franco-manitobaine. An the number of hip and knee surgeries that are on executive director administers the program. waiting lists? I believe the Minister had indi­ cated he was going to provide for me a The Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) breakdown of the numbers of hips and knees. requested information about the empty fa cilities with respect to the merged fac ilities and what Mr. Chomiak: That information will be dollars if any, would be available. I am advised provided soon. the community can apply to the Department to use existing hospital buildings for some other Mrs. Driedger: The Minister also yesterday purposes, but I note that the community would indicated that he was going to provide the names be responsible for capital and operating costs. of people who lost their jobs with the merger of Should the community sell the buildings, income the WCA and the WHA and the positions that from the sale would be used to reduce the capital they had held. Does the Minister have that debt of the project. A negotiated cost of staff prepared for today? training could be established with the Depart­ ment as a start-up cost in the first year of an Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I indicated operating budget. yesterday that I would provide the Member with 4440 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 copies of the most recent, prior-to-merger occasions, the two most prevalent issues that staffing executive outlines from those particular came to my attention and were brought to my organizations, and I will provide that. attention by nurses were (a) to bring back the diploma nursing program, which we have done, Mrs. Driedger: In some of the information that and (b) to provide us with fu nding in our the Minister just tabled, in particular, talking communities for re-education and retraining, about the 39 initiatives that came forward from which are both initiatives that we implemented grass-roots nurses to the Recruitment and and put in place. Retention Fund committee, the items that he had listed off, I thought, were all items initiated by With respect to the convergence of those the Committee itself or by the nursing task fo rce viewpoints, I cannot comment on it, other than that was looking at recruitment and retention. I that was the information that was provided to did not hear in any of those 30 initiatives me. I did note the similarity between many of anything that had not been talked about by the the initiatives that were provided from, as the committees. They did not sound very much like Member refers to it, grass roots versus a lot of the grass-roots initiatives. I wonder if the issues that are undertaken as well as a number of Minister could elaborate on that a bit. ongoing issues that did not relate to issues that were undertaken. But I am happy to report that, Mr. Chomia�: I provided the Member with a in our nursing recruitment retention plan, our list of information that was provided to me by five-point plan that we announced, it was the Nurses Recruitment and Retention significant insofar as a number of initiatives that committee and read verbatim what information came to us from nurses that had been suggested they provided. It struck me that there was by nurses for some time had been put in place. similarity between what the Member refers to as "grass-roots" suggestions and those that are Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could actually implemented by the Committee. That indicate fo r me when he will have available the suggests to me that perhaps there was a number of ICU beds closed. That one seems to convergence of viewpoints with respect to what be a very straightforward answer that should not should be offered and what should not be be that hard. I know I asked that question weeks offered. ago when Estimates first started. I wonder if the Minister could tell me when he is bringing that In point of fact, Madam Chairperson, since information forward. the Committee was comprised exclusively of people that had experience in nursing, one Mr. Chomiak: As I said to the Member should not be surprised by that particular opposite, a lot sooner than the number of beds influence. and info rmation that was provided to me during the seven years in which I was the opposition I also should note, in the latter part of my critic and that information will be provided. answer, I referred to several other issues that Mrs. Driedger: Looking at the information on were still being considered and still being the salary scale fo r midwives, it seems quite reviewed. I think it is also noteworthy that some different from what I would think was in the of the initiatives that we embarked on with MNU contract and does not seem to be respect to our nurses' plan are similar to the consistent with what nurses within the MNU initiatives that have been recommended. contract are making. Also, the number of levels seems to be less. I thought that in the nursing *(1 5:20) contract there might have been seven levels. I see in the midwives there are only five levels, so Now, Madam Chairperson, that does suggest this is certainly changing the way in which, in that there is significant convergence and this instance, midwives are being paid. consensus of opinion with respect to what we have to do with nurses and what nurses have told Could the Minister tell me what the salary us to do and a variety of pieces of advice. As I scale for a bedside nurse might be in comparison pointed out to the Member on numerous to that salary scale just provided on midwives? July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4441

Mr. Cbomiak: I do not have that infonnation in Mr. Chomiak: I, again, take it from the front of me. Member's response and clearly from the evidence that we put forward during previous Mrs. Driedger: In fact, it probably would not be Estimates that the Member is not in favour of the appropriate to compare it to bedside nurses diploma program. I can accept that. I mean, that because likely the midwives would be equated to is the Member's position. If that is the position a different level of nursing. Would the Minister the Member wishes to take and be forthcoming be prepared to provide for me the salary scale of with, that is fine. That is the Member's right. a level 4 nurse? I think that the move to the diploma program Mr. Cbomiak: I will endeavour to seek out that is something that is in the interests of the infonnation for the Member for Charleswood. patients of Manitoba. To suggest that this is creating divisions within the nursing profession, Mrs. Driedger: The Minister referenced today as if there were no divisions or no problems in the new diploma program. I wonder if he could the nursing profession when the members indicate for me, because I would assume that we opposite slashed and destroyed the diploma are six weeks away from a start date of the new program. When members opposite, when they program: Has that program been approved by were in government, attempted to eliminate MARN? completely, attempted to eliminate completely the LPNs in this province. I certainly take Mr. Chomiak: I think I answered that question exception to the suggestion that a return to the for the Member several Estimates ago. diploma program-and I have to indicate that the 80 percent or plus of diploma nurses who are Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could bedside nurses or are working nurses in repeat it. I believe he indicated, if I recall Manitoba who were diploma-trained I think take correctly, that COPSE had approved it and he a lot of exception to the member's opposition to fe lt confident that MARN would approve it. My the diploma program and the continued attacks question specifically now is: Has MARN on the diploma program. I do not think it serves approved it, knowing that at their AGM in June nursing well or the nursing profession well to there was a resolution passed where MARN attempt to do that. reaffinned their position as a BN entry to practice. If we are looking at a profession that I do want to indicate to the Member for does regulate itself, this seems to have put Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) that divisions in MARN between a rock and a hard place in some the nursing program were not created by this instances. I wonder if the Minister could tell me government bringing back a diploma program. whether that program has been approved. There were major and serious difficulties and concerns that were expressed for long periods of Mr. Chomiak: I wonder if the Member might time, particularly during the decade of the '90s outline to me what her position is with respect to when we saw a significant downsizing of the diploma program because I think it will be nursing programs. helpful to all members of the Committee. I know the Member suggests that it was the Mrs. Driedger: I do not think it is my position unions that laid off the nurses. I do not want to here. I am the one, I understand-according to go down that road, but I just want to suggest to how the rules work, the Opposition asks the the Member opposite that there were problems in questions and the Government answers. I think it the nursing profession that we had to come and would be prudent for this minister, particularly deal with. One of our responses, and our major around this issue which has certai nly created response, was the Nurses Recruitment and some serious division within the nursing Retention plan that we put in place that as its profession-! believe this minister has a centrepiece had several initiatives, the first of responsibility not just to me but to the whole which was, of course, the return to the diploma profession and to patients in Manitoba to be able program, as well as provision of $3 million for to respond to this question. education, training and upgrading throughout the 4442 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 regions, something nurses have been asking fo r a program that sees the prospect of having for some time, as well as a group of nurses who additional nurses and other professionals in the are reviewing working conditions to provide us next several years, members opposite cry fo ul with advice in terms of working conditions and and do what they can to criticize and to not assistance to nurses and to patients throughout accept the implementation of that program. So, the program. to suggest that this particular diploma program is the factor-it was a difficult situation-vis-a-vis So the suggestion by the Member for nurses' morale I think is a misreading of the Charleswood and the Conservative Party that the facts. That is something we have debated and we diploma program is causing dissension, that it is have discussed, and I do not expect to change the reason fo r the difficulties with nurses I think the mind of the Member opposite. is a non-recognition of the history, is ignoring the history of the last decade in Manitoba and I know that she and her party are pretty ignores some of the actions and some of the resolved in their position, but I also would decisions taken by the previous administration. suggest that she recognize the diploma program was something that was asked fo r by nurses and Now, I appreciate the Member opposite I do that has been a response to that need. We are not think was elected when the previous continuing to meet that response and to deal with government cut out the diploma nursing program what is the No. 1 issue, the requirement fo r in Manitoba. I do not think the Member opposite patient care in Manitoba was a member of the government when the government was attempting to eliminate the With respect to the issue of MARN as I LPN program. But we fought long and hard with understand it, MARN will be reviewing the respect to the LPN program, and it was only in program and has a process underway. the last year or two before the Government was defeated at the polls that there was a wakening, Mrs. Driedger: That is certainly the most and we supported it, that came on the part of the evasive, convoluted answer I think I have heard government that, in fact, the LPN program was so far in Estimates to a very, very direct valuable and there was a re-acknowledgement of question. the LPN program. We welcomed that, Madam Chairperson. I would like to indicate to the Minister that I was part of the nursing history in this province in With respect to the diploma program, it was the last I 0 years. In fact, the patient is always the clearly at the top of the agenda fo r a variety of centre of what I did as a nurse and, in fact, most of the nurses we talked to. It was clearly continues to be in any of my thinking, in any of something that was asked fo r and indicated and my decision making, in my questions. I very was something that we did as a government in much grew up with looking at the concentric response to the needs of not just nurses but of circles, and the patient was always in the centre. patients in Manitoba. The emphasis should be on patients and patient care. The fact is that we do I worked with all of these nurses fo r the last not have enough professionals, and it is not just many, many years. I would like to indicate to the nurses. We do not have enough professionals Minister, it was not just in the '90s that we had a across the board. tough time in nursing. In fact, the '80s were absolutely horrendous, where we would be * ( 1 5:30) standing in the hallways as nurses crying because of the health care situation in this When I stood up in the Legislature three province. years ago and asked the Government to put in place a nursing plan, I wish they would have The Minister continues to put on the record listened because by now we would have had over and over and over that I and my party are in additional nurses and additional staff to fund the opposition to the diploma program when, in fact, positions and the programs that we require to he does not know where I stand. Nor does he deliver proper patient care. Now, when we offe r know where our party stands, because our July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4443 questions as an opposition are fo r accountability I think the setting up of a nursing advisory of his decisions. In asking my questions it does group to advise on the nursing situations and not mean I approve of the diploma program or conditions within health care is a good move too. disapprove of the diploma program. I will pat him on the back for that. I think that is a proactive move to get grass-roots opinions, This minister, I think, is in a position where because I am a strong believer in asking grass he is quite unsure about this particular decision, roots what their opinions are. I am also a strong and he is looking for me to give him that little bit believer in listening carefully to what the grass of-what would the word be? roots have to say, and right now there is some real division amongst the grass roots in terms of An Honourable Member: Boost. some of the decisions that this minister has made. Mrs. Driedger: Boost, the Minister says. I think he wants some reassurances from me that he did In fact, all I am looking fo r in this particular the right thing. At this point in time, I think my question is just a clear answer from the Minister, job is more to be accountable in asking the because we are something like five weeks away question, in asking the many questions actually from this program to start up. I think it is a very that arise from this. fair question for all of those students who are expecting to go into this program, who basically I do not believe I have to be the one that sits have made the decision that that was what they here and tells the Minister that he did a good job wanted. They have not applied to anything else, or he did not do a good job. I am here to ask and it may be too late for them to apply to objective questions in the whole area around the anything else. whole nursing recruitment and retention strategy. I know that this minister has over and -over again put on the record that we are opposed I think it is a very fair question, and I think to it when, in fact, he has never heard a word the Minister should be very straightforward in from us in that particular area, but he certainly his answer in terms of the kind of fe edback he is likes to misconstrue every question that I ask on getting from MARN, and I think it is almost like the subject. a yes or no response from the Minister that would be the most fo rthright answer that he What I do know from conversation with a could give to me. It would be a yes or no. Has lot of nurses-Dr. Helen Glass being foremost in MARN approved the diploma program? this and Dr. Helen Glass certainly being recognized internationally as a nurse who has Mr. Cbomiak: Madam Chairperson, I do not really given her career to nursing-is that there want to be difficult, but if the Member would has been by this government an interference in stop putting inaccurate information in the the self-regulatory ability of the profession. At context of her question, it would be far easier to the last meeting, a resolution came forward and give yes or no answers. the profession itself supported it, and the resolution was a reinstatement of their belief in the BN as the entry to practice. The Member suggested in her wisdom and suggested in her initial question that the division The Minister also goes on to talk about some in the nurses' ranks is a result of the diploma other initiatives of his government, like $3 program, and I was pointing out to the Member million to upgrade nurses, give them the ability something she may not have known, that when to do that. I think that is good. If he is looking the previous government cancelled the diploma fo r some reassurances fo r some of the things he program, that caused problems. When the did and a pat on the back, I will give him that. I previous government tried to cancel completely think the $3 million was good. That is why we the LPN program, that caused problems. When gave in the last contract $200 a nurse fo r the previous government laid off nurses and said upgrading and ability to attend continuing edu­ there was no future for many nurses in cation courses. Manitoba, that caused problems. 4444 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Some recognition, even some mea culpa not he might give some thought to expanding the might help in terms of fr aming the question spaces in the university program to deal with the rather than taking the position that everything waiting list there. was fine until we came to office, and all of a sudden, there was a nursing shortage. I mean, Mr. Chomiak: I am happy to note there have Madam Chairperson, let us talk about reality been, particularly in the last few months, some here. The members opposite never admitted considerable efforts to meet goals and targets there was any problem, and that was a problem with respect to the University of Manitoba. We when we were in opposition because if you do are very supportive and are very aware of the not admit there is a problem, you cannot do circumstances and would be very supportive of anything about it. That is one of the reasons why additional and required needs of spaces should things were not done about it. they be required.

So if the Member wishes to ask questions Mrs. Driedger: Would the Minister be prepared fo r a yes or no, the Member ought to in her tomorrow or later today to even phone the preamble provide I think a perspective that is university and give them permission fo r opening either non-controversial or provide accurate seats? I have heard fr om a student, and I am information that does not require me to correct actually waiting fo r more information. She has the record with respect to items brought fo rward got all of her prerequisites. She wants to be a by the Member fo r Charleswood (Mrs. nurse. She has got that interest right now. Her Driedger). mother phones us to indicate that she is not able to get into the program because it is fu ll. We are So, Madam Chairperson, as I said in my going to lose this student nurse from the previous response, MARN will be reviewing the province. program and the process is underway. I will repeat it again. I cannot say yes or no to it. I wonder if the Minister could indicate MARN will be reviewing the program and the whether or not he is prepared to look at the process is underway. situation a little bit closer so that we are not losing keen students who want to be nurses *(1 5:40) when, in fact, we are sitting right now with a vacancy in this province of over II00 nurses. Mrs. Driedger: Does the Minister not have some concern about this, considering we are Mr. Chomiak: As I have indicated, I am only five weeks away from the start of a school prepared to look at that, which is why I cannot year, in terms of a curriculum that has to be understand why members opposite oppose our developed, students who are waiting, and we do diploma program. There were also 1500 people not know why, you know, there is no who applied for the diploma nurse's program. confirmation from MARN or no decision by Members opposite will not be supportive of that. MARN? Does the Minister not have some That is their right. I do not understand this line concern about this? of questioning. I have already said we are supportive and we are willing. I would sure like Mr. Chomiak: I am confident that the program to see that information from the Member with will be up, running and functioning when the respect to that. students arrive at the Red River community college in September. Mrs. Driedger: Is the Minister prepared to expand the number of students going into the Mrs. Driedger: On the same line of nursing next LPN program in the province? students, has the Minister received any word back fr om the University of Manitoba? I believe Mr. Chomiak: As the Member knows, we have he had indicated to me earlier in Estimates that taken a number of initiatives, and I would be he was waiting fo r some word back fr om them in curious to see what the Member's position is terms of a waiting list of people who might want with respect to our urging health authorities and to get into the nursing profession and whether or regions to expand the role of LPNs within the July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4445 acute care setting, to expand the roles and this acting deputy minister is carrying out his fu nctions of LPNs, which is something we have full duties as a deputy minister, I wonder if the taken on as a task. The Member might be aware Minister could tell me why he is not in that we have funded an additional 25 nurses attendance at these Estimates. seats this year within the Interlake. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, in my 10 Mrs. Driedger: Is the Minister prepared to fund years of attending Estimates, particularly the any more seats for LPNs throughout the majority of time in the last few years at the province? As I have indicated to the Minister in Department of Health, the Deputy Minister did the past, I certainly do see a role for LPNs and I not attend the course of the Estimates, and for think he will find that our government had most of those periods of time, from my doubled the enrollment in the last year. I was a experience-and I do not recall actually ques­ strong supporter of that, and I am wondering if tioning that, because I determined there was the Minister would indicate now, seeing as we some very high priority functioningthat goes on are sitting with a vacancy rate of over 1100 in the Department of Health; it must be nurses in the province, now is the time to act. Is administered and dealt with on a high priority the Minister prepared to move on increasing the basis. spaces in the LPN program very soon to address some ofthese shortages? I was also very cautious when I was the critic as I did not like to utilize staffeven when I Mr. Chomiak: Do I take it from the Member's was critic. I was always very conscious of the question, I want to be clear, is the Member, staff requirements, and I would let the Minister given the numbers that she is putting out, know in advance where I was going and what I recommending that we increase the number of was doing so that staff would not have to be spaces in the diploma program, in the BN there, would not have to wait around, because I program, in the LPN program in the RPN knew that in the middle of all of this and all of program? Is that what the Member is asking me? this stuff that we do in Estimates, the civil servants are caught somewhat in the middle, Mrs. Driedger: In this particular question it was having to be on stand-by, having to be at this the LPN program. table for long, long, long periods of time and I wanted to utilize those staff, as critic. Ifone was Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, we are to go back and question the previous ministers doing every effort we can to increase and under which I had Estimates in Health and that continue the expansion in all of the programs was Stefanson, McCrae, Praznik and Orchard, where we can. you will find that, in fact, was the course of action that I fo llowed. Mrs. Driedger: Being a fairly new MLA to government, just over two years, but having I also, with respect to the individuals that attended Estimates over that period of time, one were brought forward by the ministers, I did not thing I did note was that at every Estimates I did when I was critic, as I recall, I could be wrong, attend over the two years, whether I was chairing but as I recall I did not question who was at the it or sitting at the table listening to comments, table and when they were at the table and in the the Deputy Minister was at every session of last several years, when the Deputy Minister was Estimates, attended every day. not there for the vast majority of time, I did not query that and that certainly was not my This Minister has indicated to me that his experience in Estimates. Acting Deputy Minister is carrying out all of the regular duties of a deputy minister and yet in this * (15:50) set of Health Estimates, I have only see him here for probably half an hour. In all of the other Mrs. Driedger: Certainly I appreciate the huge Estimates I was ever at, the Deputy Minister was amount of work by everybody involved in the always at every one of them, and there to Health Department, Deputy Minister on down. provide the Minister advice, support, answers. If My question certainly came from my two years 4446 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

in experience. I thought the Deputy Minister months ago, so that we could have addressed this fr om Health was in attendance at most sessions shortage of sonographers. last year. I could be wrong, as the Minister has pointed out that I might be. However, having Mr. Chomiak: As I understand, if memory chaired some of those meetings, I know he was serves me correctly, historically, there has not not there all the time, and I certainly do not been a good uptake of sonographers in Manitoba expect it all the time because I realize the in terms of the graduating class. I will take that complexities and the challenges of working question under advisement and attempt to verify within the Health Department. It certainly is the or not the information that has been brought most challenging of all departments in fo rward by the Member. government. I am curious though, and my comment rose from the fact that he has only Mrs. Driedger: Just to provide the Minister been here fo r half an hour. I do believe the with a little bit more information on that, the Deputy Minister last year was there much more source of my information is very reliable and than just half an hour, especially if he was also very concerned that here we have a situation fu lfilling the total role of a deputy minister. where the Minister has indicated we have a shortage. He has also indicated in previous

My · question was just based on my statements that we need to address the training observations in the last while. I do not doubt, program. It would seem to me that we have an and I am not saying that people are not working adequate training program, but if the situation is hard, because I do not doubt that for a minute. I not being managed proactively, and this am quite aware of how hard civil servants work particular person fe lt that these people should and the many challenges they fac e, particularly have been offered a job fo ur months ago, he in the area of health. For the most part, I have questioned why that did not happen. Now we absolutely nothing but admiration fo r the work could be in a situation where we are losing most that they do. of these students because they have committed, one to a job in Moose Jaw, and in other places, The Minister had indicated earlier in one of and a number of them leaving the province. the documents he tabled fo r information that we have five vacancies in sonographers with seven I do appreciate the fa ct the Minister is grads graduating in August. I believe it is looking into it. I think some pretty fa st action probably in just under three weeks that they are might help to keep a fe w of them here who graduating. I have been provided some infor­ might not have jobs and are hoping and waiting mation on that particular area. I wonder if the that there might be a job offer here in Manitoba. Minister could verify the information fo r me.

I understood that there were eight people Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated to the Member graduating fr om that particular program and that previously, I will take that matter under most of them were leaving the province because advisement and provide a response to the they had not been offered a job here in Member. Manitoba, when, in fact, the fe eling was that people should have had their act together fo ur Mrs. Driedger: I would like now to defer some months ago and knowingly had vacancies. Now questions to the Member fo r Steinbach, who has the Minister tells me five vacancies. Why would some specific issues related to his area. somebody not have offered anybody in that area a job? Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): I was speaking at Again this is a question fo r verification of the Estimates on July 11 in regard to several information I have been given. I am not questions, some of which the Minister indicated assuming that it is correct or incorrect. I wonder he would take under advisement. So I would like if the Minister could verify for me why, to come back and just check on a few of these according to the information I have, these people things to see where we stand and whether we were not offered jobs, particularly at least fo ur have made any progress. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4447

I asked the Minister a question regarding the locally in Steinbach, which has a large regional need fo r a primary care centre in the town of hospital, he was fo rced to travel to Morden. This Niverville. At the time we discussed it, there dialysis treatment is not a convenience. If he were probably 1900 residents of the community, does not have it, he will die. a fairly dense surrounding community, and at the present time there is no hospital, no doctor's Having dialysis in Morden meant leaving office, and no personal care home. I understand Steinbach at ten o'clock in the morning, getting this was in the planning stage at one time. I into Morden before noon, having a little lunch, understand from the residents that they would getting hooked up at twelve thirty and by five really, really like to be able to, particularly when o'clock he was on his way back to Steinbach. it comes to a personal care home, stay in their community with their family and fr iends when The ride was a real chore, because after they reach the stage where they cannot help having a machine remove three or fo ur litres of themselves anymore. water from the blood plus numerous toxins by circulating the blood through a filtering process I would like to ask the Minister ifNiverville fo r fo ur hours, he says I am quite tired. Now I facilities have been brought fo rward for discus­ have an hour and fo rty-five to two hours drive sion or planning at this point. ahead of me. Since then, we have managed to get him back into St. B. Mr. Chomiak: I believe that process will shortly be communicated to the South Eastman RHA as part of our rollout of the announcements He said Morden hasa very nice four-station that are going to occur from the capital process dialysis unit. They only have six patients from announcements that came fo rward today. So that their area taking dialysis. Four units are capable decision, the status of it will be communicated to of handling, I am told, sixteen patients with two the South Eastman Regional Health Authority shifts a day. Other patients were bussed in from shortly. Winnipeg to Morden. In their new hospital, they are putting in six dialysis units. I wonder why Mr. Jim Penner: As well, the Minister took as with only six patients they get six units, which notice a question regarding the status of dialysis could handle twenty-four patients. To me, it in the southeast region. Since our discussion in would make fa r more sense to place their extra Estimates, I have again been approached by local machines in a different part of the province such residents about the service. as Steinbach, than add to a unit that is already capable of handling more than twice the number I would refer specifically to a letter I of patients from their own region. received this morning from a Mr. Louis Reimer. I understand Mr. Reimer has been in touch with * (16:00) the Minister's office and has not at this time received a reply regarding this issue. I would note fo r the Committee that Mr. Reimer is very I did some research as to how many dialysis grateful to be able to receive dialysis, because patients were in the Steinbach area. I have the without this he is dead. He appreciates the health names of fo ur right in the town of Steinbach. But care system for keeping him alive. Yet he what became very interesting to me was that wonders, and rightly so, I think, why a service of there are a number of people who are on this nature cannot be brought into the southeast. peritoneal-is that right, peritoneal?-but would Louis is 61 years old. He has been gainfully like to be on hemo instead. So this man, Louis employed fo r 36 years, contributed to the Reimer says I spoke to Mr. Kroeker from communities where he worked. In March of Landmark. His daughter-in-law is on peritoneal 1999, he was asked to start travelling to Morden dialysis and is not doing very well. Her name is fo r dialysis treatments because the units at St. B Elsie Kroeker. She had written a letter to the and Health Sciences Centre were being editor in The Carillon news a while back saying overloaded. This was extremely discouraging. she would like to go on hemo, but her doctor Instead of being able to have this treatment said there were not any spaces available. So she 4448 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 expressed her wish for a unit in Steinbach so she individual's problem. That is not to say that there could improve her quality of life. is not need for expanded dialysis, one of which was recognized in terms of construction starting on expanded dialysis today. Madam Chairperson, I have also heard in the last few days that the Roseau Reserve, south of As I indicated in the House prior, the Steinbach, has at least fo ur people on dialysis, provincial dialysis program, which is a centrally and then the southeast corner going all the way run program which was established by the up to Buffa lo Point, there are people commuting fo rmer government and is operating under the from Buffalo Point to St. Boniface. So Louis same parameters and criteria presently as it was, says the answer fo r me and the people of the has not considered Steinbach as a potential southeast who have kidney disease and are in hemodialysis location for this year. They are need of dialysis, would be a dialysis unit in continuing reviewing the growth of dialysis and Steinbach. Reg Toews, who is with the RHA, the need for dialysis. informed me that there are no dialysis units in the Eastman Region, even though we have quite I will take the Member's comments and pass a significant population base. them on to the provincial dialysis program for review as well as, of course, the response to the I realize that this would be something that individual in question. There is no doubt that would take some time, but I think it should be there is an incredible need across this province seriously considered. Louis says that his father fo r an expansion of dialysis. There also has been had kidney failure, and apparently this thing runs a significant expansion of dialysis over the past in the family. He is hoping that if his kids five years, which is continuing. The provincial contract the same disease that they will not have dialysis program considers all of the various to commute fo r long distances. Apparently, the locales and the various needs-based factors in commute itself is very difficult after losing reviewing the dialysis requests. almost 12 pounds of body fluids through the dialysis process. Therefore, if the cost of treating Mr. Jim Penner: Thank you for that answer. I patients is the same in one place or another, it feel almost emotionally involved when I seems that the time has come for Steinbach to be represent some of the people who have these considered fo r dialysis. That is a plea from an concerns. I really hope that the southeast will be individual on behalf of many individuals. given some consideration. Obviously that is the case. I wonder if the status of dialysis machines fo r Steinbach is available fr om the Minister. I would like to return to a point I made a couple of weeks ago to which I did not receive Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I indicated an answer. In the Minister's defence, I realize it the response to the Member's question is difficult to sit here and take rapid-fire previously in the Estimates process. As I questions regarding a wide range of topics understand, there is a provincial-wide dialysis affecting a number of regions. However, we program that makes considerations across the talked a little bit about per capita funding fo r the province. southeast region. I would like to revisit that.

As the Member might appreciate, the I think it is important to mention that we demands in dialysis and dialysis growth are must not be seen to be punishing regions of our growing exponentially, in fact, in this province province that perform efficiently. Rather I think with the need in diabetes being epidemic in those regions could be rewarded and, in fact, some segments of the population. The expansion should act as a model for other regions. of dialysis has been incredible. If one were to view the expansion of dialysis over the past five The Minister mentioned that the area I years, it has probably exceeded every other represent is a fa irly healthy one. However, I program in terms of its actual growth in the would argue two things in response. The first is province. That is not to say that solves that the fact that the region is relatively healthy and July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4449 efficient is not sufficient reason to punish those in health care are trying to utilize resources to who live in the region or choose to move there. the extent possible to provide the fairest and the Secondly, I would suggest that within the South best treatment of patients and facilities to Eastman Health Authority there is, in fact, individuals. disparity in the condition of Health. There are, I think, concerns about regions southeast of my also indicated that the funding constituency but which are still part of the RHA methodology that was in place was the same which I partially represent. methodology that we had inherited from the previous administration. I have indicated that Regardless, the Minister has had some time there is a methodology funding committee in to reflect on this situation since we last spoke. I place that is reviewing the models and how wonder if he could give some hope perhaps to funding should be applied. my residents and those of the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Lemieux). * (16:10) You will recall that the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs was quoted in the I also understand that representatives from newspaper as saying that he was astonished that the Department of Health are meeting with we were the lowest user of funds for health care South Eastman to set up a review of their in the province and that we still had many needs programs and review their particular programs that needed to be addressed. I am just wondering and their needs and requirements. Suffice it to if the review of this funding fo r the southeast is say that Health will attempt to, to the best of our underway. ability, provide the best funding allocation and services that we are capable under the circumstances. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, sometimes when I respond to questions, there has been a It becomes a relative argument across the suggestion that I am not as specific in some province and across regions with respect to references. This is an example of an area where funding allocations. To a certain extent, the one must be wary in terms of one's response. Department of Health has been trying to move, One could interpret a response as somehow not necessarily under our government, but under residents are not being adequately or sufficiently previous government, which I think we are treated with respect to their situation. It is all a trying to fo llow under this government, into relative thing. It is all relative. It is relative more of a needs-based response to requirements. across the province. It is relative across the In fact, when the RHAs were set up, the initial region. phase was to do a needs-based analysis of their requirements, which then fo rmed the framework, I have never liked per capita funding as I understand it, for the provision of the arguments on the philosophical level because per financial resources. capita arguments are not, in my view-it is only my own personal opinion. I am not arguing fo r There is a funding methodology committee the Department of Health. I have always shied at the Department of Health that is reviewing the away from per capita arguments because that is funding methodology to all regions. I understand not necessarily illustrative nor does it provide a the Department of Health is meeting with South proper analysis of the kind of care, whether it is Eastman to review the process, specifically for care or whether it is education that is provided. South Eastman. I think that is happening across the province with respect to other regions. Notwithstanding that, I provided the infor­ mation that was provided to me by staff, with Mr. Jim Penner: Thank you fo r that answer. I respect, to the Member. Figures are misleading do not envy the complications of determining the and are not always reflective of the actual reality distribution of the funding. I would like to use an of the situation. The bottom line is that the analogy to make a point. When one studies Province and the Health Department and all of criminology, more often than not, a community the Health regions and all of the people involved that has a low crime rate has, in fact, always had 4450 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 a poor law enforcement organization. In fact, The funding arrangements and the funding poor law enforcement inevitably runs with a low model and the needs assessment were operating crime rate. on a system that was put in place prior to our administration coming to office. So we are Now, when we want to allocate fu nds by functioning within data and information that was statistics, this makes it rather difficult because, provided to us prior to our assuming office, and by the same token that a low crime rate is a weak we were functioning on that kind of analysis and law enforcement, we have a situation here where that kind of basis. With respect to the number of a so called healthy area-you referred, I think, in patients that require dialysis in that particular the July 11 conversation, that southeastern area, I will have to take that question as notice. Manitoba was a healthy area-that is probably because we cannot perform the procedures and Mr. , Acting Chairperson, in the we cannot administer the treatments. Chair

So naturally the situations that exist are not Mr. Jim Penner: Thank you fo r the answer to recorded as a health problem or a health that question on statistics and healthy area weakness or a lack of health in that area, but I statement. I think it has been conceded fo r some know that south and east of Steinbach, there are years that the need fo r improving our various areas where health is a real challenge. For the health facilities was being addressed. I just fe el most part, Steinbach has become a community that some of the things that we tried to do did not that is a service community. It is a retail work, and we still want to go fo rward. Some of community. It provides services. Association for the things worked fairly well, and some of the Community Living provides services fo r those things just backfired. So all I am trying to do is with learning disabilities throughout south­ continue the process, and I give credit where eastern Manitoba, and the southeast recycling credit is due. plant provides recycling services throughout southeastern Manitoba. So it would not be I was asked, Mr. Chairman, that the minutes abnormal, I do not think, for a service of the South Eastman Health Board of Directors community to provide the 45 000 to 60 000 meeting from May 25 indicated that the people living in that vicinity with the services Government was still considering elected boards that would show that the health may not be as and also that caregivers may be appointed to the highly rated as we think, because we are relying RHA boards. Could I ask if that is still a on statistics. consideration?

So I would just like to put on the record that Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated previously in the I am concerned about the statistics being the sole Estimates process, the provision of caregivers to guideline when, in fact, the statistics only show the boards is being actively considered by the the procedures that take place and the treatments Government, and we are prepared to do that, and that take place in an inadequately funded and an we are still considering and working on the inadequately equipped fac ility. Could I ask, process of the elected board issue. Madam Chairperson, if the Minister is aware of how many dialysis patients there are in Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister tell me southeastern Manitoba? whether or not in this budget there has been any commitment to funding fo r the continuation of Mr. Chomiak: Before I respond to that the breastfeeding service at Women's Hospital? particular question, I just want to comment on the Member's statements. I want the Member to Mr. Chomiak: I will take that question as notice understand that this is a relative argument. The and provide the response to the Member. reference to a healthy community was a relative healthy community vis-a-vis other communities, Mrs. Driedger: As Estimates are probably and it is not a blanket statement that should be winding up within the next day or so, is the used as a blanketsta tement. It is a reference vis­ Minister able to find any of that information out a-vis other communities. by tomorrow? I understand that this was a three- July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 445 1 year demonstration project at the Women's information has not been provided is wholly and Hospital. It was funded by monies donated to the completely inaccurate and not appropriate. Health Sciences Centre, and according to them, with the third year of this project well underway, We have provided more information of a it is imminent to look at the continuing needs fo r different nature that was never ever provided by ongoing and comprehensive lactation support for the Department of Health during the course of Manitoba fam ilies in the future. Estimates, and frankly, had we considered the practice that had been adopted by previous Apparently, from the information we have ministers during the course of Health Estimates, received, it has been an extremely positive the Member would not have received probably program. Certainly for any mother that has even half of the information that we actually attempted and had difficulty with breastfeeding, provided, so that I do not think is a fair comment they can appreciate a program like this. It is very whatsoever with respect to the information specialized. Certainly a lot of bedside nurses do provided. The Member ought to be, I think, more not always have the time to put in the teaching accurate in her comments and information that time and the support time that is needed to help a she has provided. new mom learnhow to breastfeed. With respect to specific programs, the The Minister probably has received a Member criticized us when we came out with number of letters. I would be surprised if he did our budget. There was criticism about spending not because there has been a massive letter too much money with respect to the health care writing campaign on this whole topic. I know system even though we increased the actual that Dr. Post! and the Women's Health Program spending fo r programs extensively in this have all received numerous letters. I have a huge particular budget. There are literally thousands file of letters of support from doctors, from of programs that are administered by the various nurses and particularly from mothers, new health authorities in the various regions in a moms, who are supportive of the program and variety of functions, in a variety of activities would like to see some commitment to some right across the system fo r which funding is support of this particularprogram . provided.

I appreciate that the Minister is prepared to Obviously, we do not have access directly provide the information, knowing how hard it during the course of the Estimates to every has been to get some of the information tabled. It single program expenditure item under the has taken weeks and weeks. It would be nice to various regional health authorities. The Member be able to provide some reassurances to these may be unaware of the move to regionalization people if indeed there is a commitment to in which funding is provided to the various fu nding. regions and the fact that the regions are actually the operators and deliverers of programs. That * (16:20) was the process that was put in place by the Member's government, which she sat around the Mr. Chomiak: First off, Mr. Acting Chair­ table and supported, and that was the process person, even though the Estimates may wind up that was put in place. today or tomorrow, I have undertaken to provide the information to the Member and will provide I undertook to indicate to the Member that I the information, unlike what happened in the would be providing that information, and I will past seven years when the information was not provide the other information. Whether or not provided. Literally not provided. the Estimates end tomorrow, the next day or the fo llowing day, I will provide that information to Mr. Chairperson, we have provided more the Member that I undertook to provide, and she varied information to this member than has been will receive it. Most of the information has been provided at any other time from the Department provided to the Member. As I indicate, of Health to a critic fo r information requested. information that was never, ever provided during For the Member to somehow suggest that the course of Estimates was provided to the 4452 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Member and to the other members during the accusations he made of our reckless spending, course of the Estimates debate. So I do not think and then he builds that into the Budget and adds that the comment from the Member is actually 6 percent more on top of that. If I have any fair, but that is the way that these events concerns, it would certainly be in that particular transpire. area.

I will undertake to review the comments of At this point in time, I think I will defer any the Member with respect to that particular further questions of mine to the Member fo r program, and I will endeavour to get back to the Minnedosa. Member with respect to the details concerning the delivery of that particular program. Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Chairman, I regret I was not able to be here fo r Mrs. Driedger: I appreciate the Minister's the entire session to hear the Minister's answers undertaking to find out the information on that earlier, but I did come in to hear him say how particular program. I have to indicate, though, open he was and providing so much information. after this particular maybe we call it a tirade, the I have asked him on a number of occasions now Minister had committed to tablings. It was not fo r a copy of the new template for the existence that I was asking fo r information he did not of acute care facilities in rural Manitoba, and I make a commitment to do. He actually had believe he committed earlier to provide that for committed to providing a number of different me. I am wondering if he could do that now. bits of information, and I am very appreciative of that. Certainly it helps me to understand more Mr. Chomiak: I will provide that to the what is happening in health care, and I am very Member. appreciative of what he has offered to do. Mr. Gilleshammer: I thank the Minister fo r that My statement was in relationship to how undertaking. I am wondering if he could table long it has taken fo r him to meet the that today, provide me with that copy today. commitments that he had made because sometimes it has been almost like pulling hen's Mr. Chomiak: No, I cannot provide it today to teeth to get some of the information put onto the the Member. record after the commitment had been made that the Minister would do that. Mr. Gilleshammer: Would he confirm that the revised template of which he has spoken is now In regard to the Minister saying that we completed and available to RHAs. I believe the criticized too much spending, just a bit of Minister talked about farming it out. Is it clarification. I think what we criticized was complete and ready to go? maybe the hypocrisy behind what we saw in the Health budget because, over time, we were Mr. Chomiak: Can the Member clarify his accused of reckless spending, and, in fact, with question? the new NDP coming into government, there were all kinds of accusations of reckless spending. What I fo und ever so interesting is that Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, yes, I can. We have the Minister took all of this so-called reckless discussed this template that has been distributed spending, built it into the Budget, and then to RHA boards in the past. The Member has added 6 percent on top of it. talked about it in the House on a number of occasions. He indicated to me that there was a I am not sure that we ever criticized the fact revised copy and that the copy would be farmed there was too much spending because the out. I asked him if I could have a copy of it and challenges in health care are certainly there and he said yes. I came back and asked fo r it a all of the challenges seem to take funding in second time. He said it would be available in due order to resolve them. So I do not ever recall course. I am here again today near the end of the criticizing that. What we criticized is the Estimates exercises to see if he is prepared to position that the Minister took in all the share that with me today. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4453

Mr. Chomiak: I have provided a response to the a legitimate discussion going with him on this Member in that regard. issue. So far he has stonewalled those people.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am sorry that his answer I am asking him again. Just a few minutes is unclear. I am asking him if he has it with him ago he was talking about the spirit of co­ today and whether it exists and whether I can operation and this openness that Manitobans had have a copy of it today. never seen before from a Minister of health. I am wondering if he would extend that to me by Mr. Chomiak: I indicated to the Member that I sharing that copy with me and through me to would provide him with a copy in due course. I people of southwestern Manitoba. also indicated in my previous response to the Member that I did not have that with me today to * (16:30) provide.

Mr. Gilleshammer: The last time we met, the Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, as I indicated Minister had said he had it and he could provide to the Member, the previous government it, but he did not have it with him. I am undertook a number of reviews. In 1994, they wondering if one of his political staff would be asked the Centre fo r Health Policy and able to provide it to me later today after this Evaluation to do a review of rural hospitals exercise is over. I would be happy to stay at my which report was released several weeks ago. office or the caucus room to receive this report The previous government asked for a lab from him. consolidation and ordered a lab consolidation process to take place. In fact, the Member was a Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated to the Member, I member of the Cabinet that ordered that to take will provide it to him in due course. place. We received that report when we came into office, and we discovered that that report Mr. Gilleshammer: I am wondering if the had not been adequately distributed. We Minister would not be wise to take a page from distributed that report across the regions to the Premier's book. He is out visiting with various organizations fo r their review and input. people in southwestern Manitoba today, people who are struggling because of economic There was another report with respect to circumstances that are beyond their control and emergency services that several reports had been that governments are trying to assist with. I can done and had been deep-sixed by the tell you that adding to the stress of these people Department, and then there was another report is the fa ct that there is a document out there that that was done when the Member was a member is reviewing the southwest health authority and of cabinet, when he sat around cabinet. I do not the Marquette Health Authority which, if it was know if he made the decision to not release those accepted and implemented in its current fo rm, reports. I do not know if he actually made the would be devastating to those people. It would decision, but his cabinet colleagues made the require that a number of those facilities would be decision not to release those previous reports. A closed. report came to our desk with respect to ambulance services across the province which I am rather appalled that he wants to play we then took and we then provided to a variety, political games with the report that people are an extensive group of individuals, organizations, asking fo r. It can be his practice to stall members communities, munici-palities across the province of the Legislature in this committee by giving and asked fo r their input and advice and his answer that these will be provided in due provided that report to other individuals. course. Now, another report was commenced during I am not the only one interested in this. The the dying days of the previous regime's Minister knows that. There have been people government. I do not know if the Member sat in who have been writing to him and phoning his cabinet when and if they talked about it. I do not office and trying to have meetings to try and get know if the Member was around the table when 4454 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 they were talking about a task fo rce report to numerous instances of municipalities and other look at the templates with respect to minimum officialsthat want to talk to the Department. The standards as it applies to hospitals. I do not know Department has talked with these individuals on what the Member said in cabinet or what the a regular basis and has continued to converse Member said with his colleagues, what the and discuss matters with individuals and Member told his communities in that regard fo r individual groups. the study that was commenced when the Member was a member of the cabinet and a The Member conveniently fo rgets that he member of the Government, but that process was a member of the Cabinet that put in place a commenced and took place during the course regional health structure, which he stood up and when we arrived in office and continued, Mr. defended and which he stood up and said this is Chairperson. the way we have to go. We were putting in place a regionalized health structure and a system that A report came fr om the various participants is going to deal with community-based input and in the various parties that was directed to my a system that is going to be regionalized. He was attention and has now come to my office and to a part of a process that put in place boards, most my attention, and I have indicated to the of whom, those very same individuals, were on Member that I would provide it to him in due the very same boards. course. The Member has come into the Estimates period and insisted on a daily basis In fa ct, most of the individuals in all of the that I provide him with that report when a administrative and board structures that are in colleague of his was wandering around rural place are, in fact, individuals that the Member Manitoba with a copy of the draft of that report personally as a member of cabinet agreed to put saying the NDP is closing hospitals, the NDP is in place. Now the Member is saying, well, you closing hospitals. That was not, I think, an know what, I do not necessarily believe in that appropriate response or even a justifiable process and I want the Minister to step in and to response from members who had initially started change perhaps the way things are done and the the process of a review of the templates, way things are continuing to be done in the something that was required and needed to be province. I want the Minister to immediately done, which was a review of the minimum step up and do this, I want the Minister to do standards and the particular template. this.

I have said something that was not provided Mr. Chairperson, we have on a regular basis, to me when I was an opposition critic that we I have indicated to the Member we will provide will provide members with a copy of that that information. He will get that information. I particular report in due course. The Member is have also said that the Department of Health and attempting to impose his particular will by officials have been meeting with officials in having it done today or tomorrow. I have question. I will try to meet with as many indicated to the Member-and the Member is an officials and individuals across the province as it honourable member. I said I will provide copies, possible. I have undertaken to do that. I have and I will do that. That was a process that was probably met with a considerable group and with not necessarily provided to us when we were in many more than perhaps has happened in other opposition, but we are prepared to do that and to cases as other ministers. So I am not going to provide the Member with that. accept the criticism of stonewalling from the Member, nor am I going to accept the Member's Now, the Member is attempting to weave criticism of not providing more information. into his discourse the issue of meeting with other authorities. Of course, there are concerns in rural Manitoba. Of course, there are problems in rural I daresay that had the roles been reversed, Manitoba, Mr. Chairperson. Of course, there are most of the reports that we made public, the lab people who have to be talked with, and, of report, the emergency services report, the course, there are people that have to be dealt minimum standards report and all those reports, with. The Member has brought to my attention if the past practice had continued would not have July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4455 been made public by members opposite. That going through difficult economic times and who was certainly the pattern that they adopted. want to see their communities survive. I am sure when the Premier gets back he can share some of We reversed that pattern, and we will his views with the Minister of Health and provide that information. We continue to provide confirm that these are difficult times out there. that information on a regular basis and will All I am saying is we have an opportunity to continue to do so. I have already indicated to the relieve some of that stress by making that Member that I have undertaken to provide the information available. information to him. If the Estimates process should end today or tomorrow, I would still I know I have to accept that the Minister provide that information. will provide it in due course. I am saying that if he wants to continue to enhance that wonderful With respect, there have been a variety of reputation he is garnering for releasing all of initiatives that I have also indicated to the these reports, doing one more would certainly Member that we would attempt to do. Some of it add to it. has not been as quick as I would like to because of the demands of the Department and some of The other commitment that he made in the the concerns that have been raised. Initially I House one day was to phone the mayor of thought I could set up a meeting with officials Boissevain. That was done, I believe, on June from our emergency measures with the member 28. I am wondering if he has had time to sooner than I can. It is going to take longer than accomplish that yet. I thought because of the process, but we are doing it as quickly as we can. I have given those Madam Chairperson in the Chair instructions that that should take place. Mr. Chomiak: No. Having said that, we have tried to be fo rthright. I can assure the Member that we have Mrs. Driedger: In the Webster report, one of the provided more information than has ever been primary recommendations was No. 7, where Mr. provided in the past and we will continue to do Webster said that a review should be carried out so. The Member's attempt to characterize the of all rural hospitals in the province to determine speed with which we are acting on some the need for these hospitals and, where particular issues or trying to characterize the fact appropriate, the alternate uses to which these that we are not providing information for him capital assets could be redirected. I would like to today or even yesterday as somehow not also indicate he has, and I will read two providing information is totally inaccurate and paragraphs which are his comments under point not true. No. 7: There is a view that in some parts of the province there are too many acute care beds and I have indicated that the information would that the dollars currently being directed to these be provided. I have also indicated that I services could be more effectively utilized for undertake to do that. We will deliver that as I community-based care. There is also a view indicated. within some RHAs that there is adequate fu nding already available provided the system * (16:40) could be reconfigured to provide the right services in the right place. Mr. Gilleshammer: I hate to come here and see the Minister so angry from time to time. If it is anything I said to get him worked up like this, I His second paragraph states: In order to would certainly offer my regrets. I am just adopt this recommendation, RHAs would have telling him, certainly described a very wonderful to be given the responsibility and authority to minister. I am sure that much of that is true. I make the tough restructuring decisions without just want him to understand how important this political interference other than with the final is fo r members of those communities in the approval of Manitoba Health and the Minister of South Westman area and Marquette, who are Health. The Minister would also have to approve 4456 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

the criteria under which the reviews would be Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister tell me what carried out. his intent is in terms of this specific primary recommendation No. 7 to address whether or not Could the Minister tell me whether he all the rural hospitals in Manitoba are needed? directed Gordon Webster to review and com­ ment on whether or not all rural hospitals are Mr. Chomiak: The report recommends a review needed in Manitoba? should be carried out of all rural hospitals in the province to determine the need fo r these hospitals, and, where appropriate, the alternate Mr. Chomiak: No. uses to which these capital assets could be redirected. I believe, Madam Chairperson, that Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister indicate, that process actually started taking place in 1994 guess, his intent on whether or not to fo llow one under the previous administration, which asked of these primary recommendations fr om the fo r a review from the Centre fo r Health Policy Webster report? and Evaluation with respect to the utilization of rural health care facilities.

Mr. Cho�iak: The Webster report was a review Mrs. Driedger: Would the Minister concur with of the health care financial management and Mr. Webster's statement that there are too many accountability. Included in the appendix under acute care beds in the province? Appendix A is the terms of reference that were given to Mr. Webster. If the Member wants to Mr. Chomiak: I believe that the previous­ return to Appendix A, which is included at the previous minister of Health, the Member fo r Lac back portion of the report, he was asked to du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik), made that statement identify any inefficiencies, overlap or dupli­ very loud and clear during the course of cation which exists within the planning for and Estimates on numerous occasions, and made that delivery of health care services in Manitoba, point very regularly during the course of the introduction of approved accountability around Estimates debate. health care expenditures in Manitoba, processes which must be implemented to avoid the Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister indicate for traditional funding shortfalls and subsequent me not what the previous-previous minister has deficit top-ups which have characterized health said, but what he himself fe els in terms of care spending, processes which must be whether or not there are currently today too implemented to enable government to make many acute care beds within the system. proactive decisions around necessary increases, any suggestions, changes in our approaches to Mr. Chomiak: We have received the Centre for health care delivery which would help alleviate Health Policy and Evaluation report, and we are the continued upward pressures in health care asking fo r fe edback and advice from the regions expenditures. and across the province with respect to its assessment and evaluation from the report, the Mr. Webster came back with a number of report that was ordered by the government in recommendations, some were very broad, some 1994. were very specific, under the catchment of those particular criteria. So, when the Member asked if Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Webster made a statement he was specifically asked to review the rural that there is also a view within some RHAs that hospitals, that is not the case. I understood that there is adequate funding already available the previous government, under the fo rmer within the system. Would the Minister concur premier and fo rmer minister of Health, with that statement? commissioned a report, in fact, to do that fo r the Centre fo r Health Policy and Evaluation, such Mr. Chomiak: There is a variety of views report which was reported back about a week within various RHAs with respect to various and a half ago, which I believe the Member has a situations. The Member fo r Steinbach (Mr. Jim copy of. Penner) just recently in Estimates here indicated July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4457 that he thought there was not sufficient funding asking right now as to what my colleagues in place. There are some individuals and various opinions were. RHAs that have individual concerns and individual responses to that particular matter. I was asking this minister what his particular That was one of the reasons that we are under­ opinion would be in this area, as he is the one taking a review of the funding methodology with that is going to be entrusted to handle Primary respect to our RHAs. Recommendation No. 7, and Mr. Webster had indicated that the RHAs would have to be given Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Webster indicated that in the responsibility and authority to make the order to adopt this recommendation-and the tough restructuring decisions. I am sure that is recommendation is only fo r a review, but a not an understatement at all without political review that would actually be addressing a interference. Obviously, that was added in there situation of looking at what happens to rural because Mr. Webster had a certain view to this. I hospitals. He says that the RHAs would have to was wanting to hear what the Minister had to say be given the responsibility and authority to make in terms of a comment of his own. the tough restructuring decisions without political interference. Could the Minister tell me Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, obviously, what his involvement would be in terms of this the structure that has been put in place with particular review being carried out, and why Mr. respect to regionalization, I would indicate that Webster might feel that political interference is decisions in regard to the application of funds something he had some concern about in a and the application of resources in a region are review of this issue. made by the regional health authorities who are situated and located in that particular region. Mr. Chomiak: It is obviously of a good deal of concern. If the Member were paying attention to Mrs. Driedger: Primary Recommendation No. 8 comments of the Member from Minnedosa(Mr. from Mr. Webster says the existing RHAs within Gilleshammer) just recently, he was very the province should be reviewed to determine concerned about a review process that was whether mergers of some RHAs would be more undertaken in the summer of last year, and economical and would enable the delivery of undertaken by some of the RHAs with respect to improved levels of patient care. minimum standards and staffing of hospitals and, I think, fa irly strongly expressed the Could the Minister tell me whether or not viewpoint that from his perspective the potential the Department and he are currently looking at fo r downsizing or the potential for conversion or that? closure of particularly rural hospitals would detrimentally affect the rural communities. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, it is interesting because the Member fo r Charleswood So the Member needs look no further than also had, earlier on during the course of her colleague with respect to an opinion in this Estimates, recommended a review of all the regard. RHAs, and I indicated that that was an interes­ ting suggestion. It had been something that we * (16:50) had considered, whether or not we should do a functional and complete review of all the RHAs, Mrs. Driedger: I was certainly more interested and actually had not gone fo rward with that in what the Minister's opinion was than my particular recommendation. colleague's because I have talked to him about this issue, and I am aware of what his opinion is. Certainly, my colleagues and I have had a There is always a review and always number of discussions about issues like this so I discussion concerning functionality of opera­ am aware of what the issues are for them, the tions, and I will be very curious and very concerns that they bring from their areas, and I interested in the feedback we are going to get think there are some very, very valid concerns from various regions as to their view of that that are coming from their areas. So I was not particular issue. 4458 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Mrs. Driedger: Does the Minister concur with Mrs. Driedger: Once the review has been Mr. Webster when he says there is a view that completed, will the Minister move on this some RHAs are not large enough to operate at particular recommendation to call for a larger the most effective or efficient level possible, nor review to determine whether or not mergers do they have the resources necessary to offerthe should take place? Would it be his intent that most appropriate quality standards? Does the rather than leaving it to the RHAs to come up Minister have any idea which RHAs Mr. with that, would it be a move that he would be Webster might have been referring to? prepared to take in terms of fo llowing the recommendation to review whether or not some Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, not RHAs need to be merged? specifically, but I am certainly anxious fo r the fe edback from the RHAs with respect to this Mr. Chomiak: I do not want to prejudge the particular viewpoint. particular results of discussions and ongoing discussions in a whole variety of areas and a Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister confirm with whole variety of processes that are taking place. me, based on the answers he is giving right now, that, in fact, he will be undertaking a review to Mr. Gilleshammer: Just a comment to the determine whether or not mergers are what he Minister based on a question that someone asked will be looking at? earlier about the composition of RHA boards, I am given to understand that Premier Romanow Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I do not has some very strong fe elings about appointed think that the Member can take that response board members and elected board members. I from my answer. No. believe he was known to say that one of the mistakes he made was allowing for elected board Mrs. Driedger: I put the question to the members. I would just want the Minister to think Minister then, I mean, will he be looking at the about that and perhaps, in his travels, could RHAs? Will he be asking fo r a review to see speak to Premier Romanow to get a better whether or not there should be a merger of some understanding of where he was coming from. RHAs? Mr. Chomiak: I have actually had discussions Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I believe under with officials in Saskatchewan concerningthat. I the RHA act that was passed by the previous thank the Member fo r that suggestion. government, that the RHAs have the power to recommend particular mergers. I believe, if my Mrs. Driedger: One final little section of memory serves me correctly, they actually have questions prior to taking a break, could the that particular power. There was provision put Minister tell me how many people in numbers into the Act for RHAs to actually recommend are on the waiting lists fo r CT scans? that particular situation. Mr. Chomiak: I will attempt to provide that I am very interested in what responses that response to the Member. we are going to receive back from the RHAs with respect to this recommendation and other Mrs. Driedger: With all of the staff here right recommendations. now, I wonder if the Minister has that information accessible to him. I will be asking Mrs. Driedger: Is the Minister indicating by for the number of people on waiting lists for CT, that response that this report has gone out to all MRI, bone scan, ultrasound, cardiac surgery, of the RHAs and he is awaiting their comments knee surgery, hip surgery, and heart surgery. I on it? know that when we were in government, we kept all that information. Manitoba Health tracked it. Mr. Chomiak: I directed, when the report came It was readily available at all times. It was out, that the report ought to be circulated to the monitored quite regularly as part of the RHAs and interested parties fo r review. management of waiting lists. I would wonder if July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4459 the Minister, through his staff who are here now, believe that that information was not provided might have that information. and the Member indicated it would not, but that she was knowledgeable when she was govern­ Mr. Chomiak: I am surprised the Member ment that that information was available. So I provides me with that revelation, because the said that is a revelation to me. Minister never provided it to me when I asked for it. That is interesting. I will endeavour to Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister then confirm provide to the Member the information that we that, indeed, he has been tracking these numbers have available. since fo rming government and is aware of what the actual numbers of people are on each of Mrs. Driedger: Is the Minister then indicating those waiting lists? that the staff that are here right now do not have that information with them and he will choose to provide it at another time? Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, no, that is not the case. Mr. Chomiak: I have indicated to the Member I will provide the information that is available that Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister just expound the Member has requested. on that a little bit more? Is he not aware of the number of people on the waiting lists or is he not Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister put a bit of a aware of what specifically? time line on this for me?

Mr. Chomiak: In due course. Mr. Chomiak: The Member asked whether or not I was aware of tracking the number of people Mrs. Driedger: If the Minister were still interes­ on specific waiting lists since we fo rmed ted in having a break, I would be prepared. government, and I said, no, that is not the case.

Madam Chairperson: The Committee will take Mrs. Driedger: Is the Minister currently, as the a five-minute recess. Minister of Health, fo llowing the number of people on waiting lists? The Committee recessed at 4:59p.m. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, we regularly look at the wait times for particular procedures.

The Committee resumed at 5:12p.m. Mrs. Driedger: I am aware that the Minister fo llows wait times. Does he also fo llow the number of people on those waiting lists? Madam Chairperson: Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. The floor is now Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I do not open fo r questions. follow the numbers of people on that waiting list. Mrs. Driedger: The Minister indicated prior to the break that he did not know that the Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could Department kept specific numbers of people on tell me why he would not be tracking that along waiting lists. Could the Minister indicate fo r me with the waiting times in terms of weeks or and reaffirm I guess what his statement had just months or years fo r tests or surgeries, why he been that this is the first time he knew that? would not be asking fo r that information on a regular basis so that he would know that there Mr. Chomiak: No, I think the Member were 5000 people waiting for cataract surgeries misinterpreted the response. I said that, when I and he would be able to monitor that on a asked fo r that kind of information when I was month-to-month basis, for instance, as to the critic, I was not provided. I was given to whether or not that is going up or down. 4460 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Mr. Chomiak: I believe I follow the practice information to Manitobans that she said she generally that was approached by the previous tracked on a daily basis, when it was asked fo r administration with respect to wait times, and on a daily basis. I am astounded. I am astounded, that is the process that we have continued to and perhaps that was one of the indications of fo llow. the problem we had in this province under the previous administration, which the Member has Mrs. Driedger: Actually, fo r the Minister's gone out of her way to defend over the course of information, we fo llowed the numbers on the these Estimates as to how wonderful things waiting lists. They were part of regular reports were. The members did not provide the that were given to the Minister, and I, as the information that we asked for with respect to a legislative assistant to the Minister of Health, variety, even though she had it and stonewalled received all of that information because we and stonewalled together with the Minister of tracked not only weeks, months or years of time Health in providing that information to people were waiting, but we also tracked the Manitobans. number of people that were on those waiting lists as well as the numbers of tests or surgeries I think therein lies the difficulty and the that were done in terms of numbers of people. problem with respect to why members got into so much difficulty with respect to health care I guess I would ask the Minister why he during the course. I remember standing up and would not be fo llowing the numbers of people asking fo r specific information in terms of who are waiting on any list so that, in fact, we numbers and it was not provided, and told that are not talking about just a fact. We have a information was not available. waiting list for MRis of five weeks. There is also some significance to knowing how many people * (17:20) that actually accounts for. Keeping in mind the patient is always central, if we only look at Now, the Member tells me that information waiting lists in terms of weeks, we sort of lose was being tracked on a daily basis and she had that focus because it is numbers of people. It is access to it and the Minister had access to it, and those significant people in that centre circle that they would not provide it. I think that is we need to be keeping track of. illustrative of the difficulties and the problems we had when the members opposite refused to Mr. Chomiak: I thank the Member for that acknowledge that there were problems. They advice. refused to acknowledge that there was difficulties, and they obviously did not put in Mrs. Driedger: I hope the Minister is not that place programs and initiatives to deal with those trite when he is talking to Manitobans or to programs and denied they were there. That was people that are on those lists because certainly one of the reasons why we could not see the there is significance to it. If we are looking at substantive improvements in the health care 5000 people waiting fo r cataracts, if we are system that we were required to deal with. looking at hundreds waiting fo r cardiac surgery, knowing those numbers is significant, especially Obviously, the Department tracks infor­ if you are one of those people on one of those mation on the same basis, and we were tracking waiting lists. information on the same basis that I presume was tracked during the course of the previous I appreciate the fact that the Minister is administration. In terms of the reporting willing to provide me with those numbers of information that is provided on a regular basis, people on the waiting list, and I guess I would the information is provided on the same hope the Minister would have a closer look at reporting style and reporting basis that was that too. provided with respect, I assume, to members opposite. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I cannot believe that the Member was legislative assistant With that respect, information of scheduling, to the Minister of Health and did not provide that people and wait times is related. I did that on a July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4461 whole series of areas. When we chose to put it Member knows that. That is the interesting on the Web site and make public the hallway thing, because the Member has indicated she situation, we used the same reporting mechanism knows that. The Member has indicated she that members opposite had secretly closeted knows there were problems in particular areas. away and had been used on a regular basis. What She knows there were problems, in particular did we do? We put the information on the Web waiting lists. site. We took the information the members had been secreting away and not providing and Why did the previous government not act? denying it actually existed, and we put it on the Where were you? Where was the action to deal Web site. with the problems, Madam Chairperson? Why were there not initiatives put in place? Why did Periodically, Madam Chairperson, of course you not deal with the hallway medicine that opens us up to criticism. The Member situation? Why did you not deal with the opposite says well, you have only eliminated the situation of waiting lists? No, when you knew­ problem 80 percent, you have only eliminated and I find that a bit strange, particularly when the problem 90 percent, you have only elimi­ the Member now comes on a regular basis and is nated the problem 98 percent, and you have critical of the initiatives that we have introduced, fa iled as a government the Member says, when, initiatives that were not in place when the in fact, members opposite were secretly not Member was aware of this information, when providing that information, were not providing it the Member had access to this information, to the public. We put it on the Web site, and we when the Member was a legislative assistant-! said judge us by the results, judge us by what we now find out-to the Minister of Health and had are able to accomplish with respect to the that information and did not provide that programming we are putting in place and with information publicly, information that we are respect to the information that we are providing. providing on a regular basis. We put it on the Web site, and we said deal with it on that basis. Then the Member insists that we have to With respect to the wait times, Madam provide it in a particular form to the Member, Chairperson, we have used the same kind of because the Member said she had access to that reporting structure and data fo r comparative information when she was legislative assistant. purposes that members opposite chose. We did Then she insists that we provide it in a certain not change. The same individuals are in the same time frame, notwithstanding the fact that we positions, generally, providing the same type of provided more information and additional information provided to the members opposite, information that was never provided during the except the diffe rence is members opposite would course of the Estimates debate. We went further. not provide it to us. You know, the Member has We put the hallway stats up on the Web. site, and this way of saying, well, now you should do it the Member regularly stands up and utilizes and now-but, I do take some exception to the those stats to provide information. That is why fact that the Member, who now indicates she they are there, for the information of the public, was a legislative assistant to the Minister-had fo r the education of the public, so people will access to that information and sat in the know what the reality situation is. Legislature day after day after day when the information was stonewalled and the information was not provided. There was one week when the information did not go up on the Web site, and the Now, when we provide the information to suggestion came from members opposite that we the Member, the Member says, well, provide it were hiding the information because it was not faster, provide more information, when, in fact, up on the Web site that day when, in fact, there we have even provided more fo rthcoming with had been a computer glitch across the entire respect to information, more information to system. Everyone knew it, but members members opposite than has ever been provided somehow saw in that failure of that one week to during the course of these Estimates. The post Web site data that there was somehow a 4462 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 conspiracy on the part of the Government to But fo r the Member to suggest that she had withhold information. That is a problem. accessed information that she would not reveal through her minister previous and that somehow That is a problem for me, Madam now we have to reveal all of the information that Chairperson, because I think the way that the she secretly, and the fo rmer government, previous government functioned and operated secretly closeted away, I think, does a disservice and the methodology adopted by them, they to the entire process. assume and they read into events and read into circumstances, certain ways of functioning and certain ways of acting that I do not think are Mrs. Driedger: Following this particular tirade, valid and were probably adopted-! do not want then I have to ask the Minister something, and to accuse members opposite of that-by the fo llowing his line of thinking in this. He has now previous regime and which we are not given his legislative assistant, Mr. Struthers, the continuing. But, you know, to be accused of not freedom to provide me with every bit of providing information, or not providing infor­ information I want, because the Minister just mation in a timely fashion, when the information said that a legislative assistant that has infor­ was never provided-and the Member knew that mation and does not provide it, is doing a bad that information was available when she was job. I have to assume that his legislative assistant legislative assistant to the Minister of Health­ is now authorized by this tirade to give me every strikes me as an issue that I think bears some bit of information that I want. I do not even have discussion and some scrutiny. to go to the Minister anymore. Is this what he is saying? You know, to continue to make statements that information is not provided in a timely Mr. Chomiak: First, I want to correct the fashion or information is not provided, when Member. The particular discourse that I just more information has been provided to the engaged in was not a tirade; in fact, it was an Member opposite, I think, does not serve this attempt to show the Member the fa llacy of her committee well and does not serve the process position with respect to demanding information well. I may have taken longer than I anticipated that she herself and the Minister kept from the with respect to that, but I do take exception to public. I have indicated that we are providing­ that kind of comment by the Member with we are not saying no to the information respect to information, by carefully gleaning off provision. We have provided it, and we will the past and fo rgetting the past, and then coming continue to provide it, contrary-and that is back to the past to say: Oh, I had access to that where the logical reasoning of the Member fo r information, and you, the new minister, should Charleswood breaks down-to the past practice now provide it to me when, in fact, I was of the previous regime of which she was legislative assistant to a minister and we would legislative assistant, when the information was not provide it to anybody. Now the Member fo r not provided at all. The information was simply Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) is saying that is not provided. not true, that information was not provided.

The reporting mechanism that we are Now the Member has asked fo r information utilizing with respect to waiting times is of which we provided more information during consistent with the pattern that was adopted by the course of these Estimates than at any other the previous government with respect to repor­ time that I recall, additional information on a ting times. The hallway medicine initiative is on variety of subjects that has not been provided in the Web site on a weekly basis and very, very the past. I now discover, fr om the comments of public despite suggestions from members the Member, that she had accessed information opposite that that information would not be that I was denied and that was not provided fo r made available. That information has been made previously. She had access to that information available. More information has been available. and chose, together with the Minister of Health, We will continue to educate Manitobans by not to make that very information public that she providing that information. is now asking be made public. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4463

That is where I find the logical This minister has been around this inconsistency in the questions and the remarks of government long enough to know that upper the Member who then insists on certain timely benchers are not ministers. We do not have the release of information, and the release of authority to be providing information left, right, information to the members of the Opposition, and centre. We have an obligation as a of which I have indicated at least half a dozen legislative assistant to do certain things. But we times during the course of the last hour, hour and certainly are not privy to a lot of information, a half, that we will provide in due course to the nor do we have authority or cabinet approval or Member. We have provided information that anything else that is involved with being a again, I reiterate, has not been provided in the minister. An upper bencher really does not have past. a huge amount of clout in terms of some of the decisions made within departments. That is With respect to the Member's suggestion absolutely fo r sure. So, if the Minister is going to that she can go to the legislative assistant of the accuse me of knowing information and Minister of Health and obtain information, as I stonewalling, then that is going to hold true for have indicated, we are providing information his legislative assistant, too. For a minister that from this government on a timely basis that has has been around long enough to know the never been provided before, and we will situation, I am totally surprised at him making continue to do that. We will continue to provide comments such as this. that information notwithstanding that the Member when she was a member of the former Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I do not government did not provide that information. want this discussion to continue interminably. I think there are a lot of questions the Member I want the Member to recognize that wants to ask, and there are a lot of responses I particular position, at least acknowledge that am prepared to give. My point that I was particular position, and the total logical making, and I will wrap it up on this point, was inconsistency of that particular position, and the Member had accessed information, together perhaps reflect upon that with respect to the with the Minister of Health, that was not information that is being provided to members provided to us, andwas denied to us on a regular opposite and to the public during the course of basis. the Estimates debate.

* (17:30) I express surprise that the Member who was part of a government that denied information Mrs. Driedger: Is the Minister truly naive would now come back and say to the members enough to believe that an upper-bencher of this government who have provided more legislative assistant, whether it is to the Minister information that she is aware of than ·has ever of Health or the Minister of Education, has any been provided before, of somehow not providing ability or authority to go running around information, I think that is logically inconsistent. providing information, especially when I was I just express surprise, particularly when the never personally asked fo r any? Is the Minister Member indicated to me that she had access to truly naive enough to believe that an upper­ all kinds of information that had been denied to bencher legislative assistant has the ability to go us by the previous government of which the around providing information? Member was a part. The bulk of which has been provided already, during the course of these He accused me of stonewalling, saying I Estimates to members opposite. I was just should have been providing information. Well, is pointing out the logical inconsistency of that he going to stonewall me now, or is the particular position. legislative assistant going to stonewall me now? It should hold true. If he fe lt that I should be Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Chairperson, the providing information, then so should his Minister has spent considerable time patting legislative assistant be providing me with all of himself on the back fo r all the wonderful things the information that I want. I do not understand. he has done, reliving his life in opposition, and 4464 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

provided precious few answers. Can he indicate they were limited-but the waiting list periods fo r how many people in Manitoba are waiting fo r some of the areas that the members had pointed knee surgery? out in July and August of last year, and used those figures in terms of the information and the Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I do not reportingthat were provided. really see the comments in terms of patting myself on the back. I am simply responding to With respect to the numbers of patients, questions and providing information that is will endeavour to find out what we have. As I asked for by the members opposite. If the indicated I think recently, in terms of Estimates, members opposite are defensive and want to go I will endeavour to provide information to the down that road, that is fine. I will just point out members. to the Member fo r Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer), it was the Member fo r Mrs. Driedger: I do not want to be confused Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) who raised the about the issue, nor do I want to get the issue of her participation in the previous Minister's legislative assistant into any trouble, government and her access to information. So, in but if the Minister could just clarify fo r me: Do I that regard, Madam Chairperson, I was have his permission now, with the comments he responding to claims that were raised by the has put on the record this afternoon, to be asking Member fo r Charleswood. the legislative assistant fo r information that I might be asking for here today; example, I will provide that information. I have taken numbers of people on waiting lists, length of notice of that information and will provide it. waiting lists in terms of weeks, days, months? Is the Minister, by his train of thought and what he Mr. Gilleshammer: So I am given to has put fo rward here, indicating that I have the understand that today the Minister will not permission to do that and that his legislative provide numbers of people on any of the waiting assistant now has an obligation to provide me lists that we have been asking about for cardiac with that? Otherwise, he would be considered surgery, hip replacement, heart surgery and so stonewalling, as the Minister has indicated. on. Again, that this will be provided in due course. Mr. Cbomiak: I am sorry that the Minister has to seek clarification and go down this line of Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, we had a questioning, Madam Chairperson. The Member long discussion previously in terms of the fo r Charleswood can ask anything of anybody in Estimates debate, in terms of information on terms of-if the Member fo r Charleswood wants waiting lists, how that information is allocated, to ask questions, wants to go to the Member fo r how that information is provided, et cetera, with Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), she can. I am sure she respect to numbers. does on a regular basis. She can ask him whatever she wants. In terms of the Department of Health directly, I do not see access to the regular numbers on all cases on a regular basis. The First of all, this reference to upper bencher, I general reporting mechanism that has been the do not like. This whole reference is just-the fact practice, that members used in their pre-election is we are all members of the Legislative piece that went out in July of last year and then Assembly, we all work together on a variety of their other pre-election piece that went out in projects on regular systems and regular August of last year with respect to waiting lists, processes. We talk to each other on the record the Member might recall there were documents and offthe record on a regular basis. We all talk that were mailed to all Manitobans, I believe, to each other on a regular basis, generally. The one in July and one in August, that used Member does not need to seek my permission if averages for waiting lists, et cetera, for various she wants to have a conversation with the procedures. Generally, in terms of reporting of Member fo r Dauphin. He is a very affable fe llow information, that has been the practice that we and is a very effective fe llow. She does not need have continued. We have taken the waiting lists- my permission to talk to him, Madam July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4465

Chairperson, and I do not think I have to ask her something the Member said she had access to on permission to talk to the Member for Minnedosa a daily basis. (Mr. Gilleshammer) or any other members of her caucus. We all talk on a regularbasis. An Honourable Member: I never said "daily." You said that. * (17:40) Mr. Chomiak: The Member said that she did Madam Chairperson, with respect to the not say "daily," and I will correct that. The provision of information, I generally adopted the Member said she had access to that information, policy, when I was the Health critic, that I asked but I could never get access to that information, fo r all information through the office of the but I want the Member to understand that there Minister. That was what I was basically directed has been a change, and we provide that to do, and that is what I generally continued to information publicly on the Web site, and the do during the course of my tenure. I did not Member has access to it, as do all members of generally go around to other authorities or other the Legislature, as do all members of the public, agencies. I generally directed my questions which is a change considerably from past toward the Minister's office, and generally the practice, Madam Chairperson, and from the way Minister's office provided information to me things functioned in the past. directly through the Minister's office. That is just the practice of government. Generally, members So the Member keeps wanting to go down ask questions and generally they are related to this road of-and I do not know if it is a defensive that particular area. They go through the mechanism or not-ascertaining what she could Minister's office with respect to the responses to ask the legislative assistant fo r or what the those particular questions. legislative assistant, what information can be provided, when, in fact, the members received The Member said that we were access to information. The members receive stonewalling. I cannot believe the Member's access to information, run out to the media, comment. We have provided more information provided that information to the media and got during the course of these Estimates than has press clips on that. So I do not know what the been provided at any other time on any other Member is complaining about. You have got a occasion during the course of the Estimates lot more information than we ever had and were debate. Now the Member wants additional ever provided. We even provided it to you, information parcelled out in a particular fashion knowing you were going to run out to the media that she wants or that she fe els it should be and provide that information publicly, but provided in. I am just indicating, and I have frankly that is the way the process is. The taken notice of dozens and dozens of questions process is that we are trying to be open and we and provided dozens and dozens, in fact, are trying to provide the information. In fact, we hundreds of responses to the Member fo r have provided it. Charleswood. I must reiterate and add that more information has been provided to the Member So fo r the Member to then bring up images for Charleswood than at any time was provided of stonewalling and images of not providing to any other Health critic. information strikes me, in the immortal words of the former member for Morris, passing strange. I Now, the Member wants to define the style do not want to belabour this point. I said and the type and the timing and the particular previously what I wish to do is that I wish to go nature of the information. I have taken those on and deal with the issues raised, but the questions as notice and indicated to the Member Member keeps going back, and because the that I would be prepared to provide, where it is Member chooses to make suggestions in the appropriate and where it is necessary and where course of her preambles that I think are it is available, the information to the Member for inaccurate, I feel compelled to respond to those Charleswood, and we have done that. We have particular inaccuracies. I have indicated to the done more than that. We have put up on the Web Member we are providing that information. She site the lists with respect to the hallways, has had access to more information than has ever 4466 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 been provided, and that will continue to be the Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education case. and Training): Thank you, Mr. Chairperson, I will have staffcome into the Chamber. They are Madam Chairperson: Order, please. A just in the anteroom. recorded vote has been requested in another section of the Committee of Supply. As the hour Also, I would like to just briefly comment, is now 5:45, is it the will of the Committee to welcome the Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. rise fo r the day before members proceed to the Smith) back from her journey to P.E.I. and also Chamber fo r a fo rmal vote? comment upon the process that we have undertaken in terms of the Estimates. Of course, Mr. Chomiak: Do we have any sense, do you both fo r the Member fo r Fort Garry and myself, guys know, are we going past six o'clock? this is a brand-new process, being rookies. I know that the Member fo r Russell (Mr. An Honourable Member: Today? Derkach) has been through the Estimates process both as an MLA and as a former minister of Mr. Chomiak: Yes. Education.

An Honourable Member: I imagine so. I just wanted to comment, as it may be my last session-I do not know fo r sure, but the Mr. Chomiak: Then we better not rise. Let us Member is nodding her head, so we are hopeful­ see what happens. We will have to come back. that we have had a very interesting process. From my own perspective as a rookie, and I am Madam Chairperson: Is it the will of the Com­ sure that the Member for Fort Garry would mittee to rise? agree, it has been very educational, very interesting. I have been thankful from time to Mr. Chomiak: We can come back and adjourn time to have the Member for Russell in the Committee if we have to. attendance, I am sure the Member fo r Fort Garry has as well, because his experience did Madam Chairperson: Okay. I am therefore demonstrate itself a number of times. We had recessing this section of the Committee of some fun during the process in earlier days. Supply in order for members to proceed to the Chamber fo r a formal vote. So I just wanted to say, as we have been adjourned in this process with the Department of The Committee recessed at 5:50p.m. Education and Training for a little while, that it has been an interesting experience from our perspective and one that has also been mystifying from time to time, but I know we The Committee resumedat 6:10p.m. have gone through it pretty much to completion now, and it has been interesting. It has been Madam Chairperson: The hour being 6:10, something that I will not fo rget, at least my first committee rise. time through. I expect the same is true fo r the Member fo r Fort Garry, although I expect she will make some remarks to this effect, too. EDUCATION AND TRAINING So thank you, welcome to the Member for * (15:00) Fort Garry, and thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chairperson (Conrad Santos): Good Mr. Chairperson: Consideration of these afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please Estimates left off on page 57 of the Estimates come to order. This section of the Committee of book, Resolution 16.1. Administration and Supply will now resume consideration of the Finance. The floor is now open for questions. Estimates fo r the Department of Education and Training. Could we request the Minister's staffto Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Chair, I just enter the Chamber now? wanted to put some comments on record, as July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4467 well. I concur with what the Minister of overview as to the objectives and talk about how Education has to say. It has been a very the Manitoba Property Tax Credit impacts on the enjoyable time. It has been a time of learning, funding fo r the educational services in the but it has also been a time to get to know the province of Manitoba, and give some ideas as to Minister better and appreciate the Minister's the goals and objectives you might have for the point of view in terms of where he is going in future? Education. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chairman, I thank the I do put on record that we do have some Member fo r her question and am pleased to be differences from time to time, but that does not able to provide some answers to it. Before I do undermine the respect that we have fo r each so, perhaps I should again introduce the other, and that is very much appreciated, as well. members of the Department who are with us I also have to say that the staff at Manitoba here today: Mr. Claude Fortier, Ms. Pat Education and Training is absolutely out­ Rowantree, Dr. Leo LeTourneau, and my boss, standing. Their expertise, I know, is appreciated Dr. Ben Levin. by all of us. I know the Minister has very graciously introduced his staff and I am sure he The issue which the Member raises is one, will again just as a protocol. He has very of course, that is of tremendous significance fo r graciously introduced the staff and also the Government of the Province of Manitoba. acknowledged their contribution to this The Property Tax Credit and resident Estimates process as well. I thank you for that, homeowner tax assistance program that the all of you, for coming and bearing with us provincial Government has undertaken in this during these days of Estimates. I must say when budget year, in addition to $75 to that program I worked in Manitoba Education and Training, I in this budget year provided to Manitoba remembered being in the Estimates process and taxpayers in this year, an immediate benefit of turning on a dime and getting information as $325 as a deduction in their municipal property quickly as possible and hoping that I had all my tax statement. That represents an injection of notes ready. I have full appreciation fo r what $75 additional funds in this budget year, Mr. you do, and without your contribution I think Chairperson. The Property Tax Credit was and is both sides of the House would be remiss not to. central to government's belief that property thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it. taxpayers in the province of Manitoba over the past decade have suffered tremendously as a Having said that, the Minister has alluded to consequence of, frankly, provincial government the fact that we are in the final stages of our offloading of responsibility in term of fu nding, Estimates process and I fully expect that will be particularly fo r the public school system which the case. I understand Mr. Derkach will be here. is why this subappropriation appears within my He has three or fo ur more questions that he budget but more broadly as well. would like to introduce and get some answers to, so with all due respect, I would ask that we be The major concern of property taxpayers in allowed to bounce around a little bit just to clean the province of Manitoba revolves around the up some questions that we have. In sharing the percentage of funds that have to be obtained Estimates process with another colleague, we locally, fr om the local level, from local have double trouble I guess. We keep thinking ratepayers in the fo rm of property tax to support about new things that we need to approach, so if individual school division's educational objec­ you will bear with us in that regard I would tives. For that reason that subappropriation is appreciate very much. reflected in the Department of Education and Training's budget. * (15:10) The philosophy behind the tax credit and the I wanted to tum to page 60, 16.4, Mr. Chair, enhancing of the tax credit, which was an and ask this minister some questions on the election commitment that the provincial New Manitoba Property Tax Credit. If the Minister Democratic Party made in the previous election, would be so kind, could you please give me an if elected government, the commitment was to 4468 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 increase the property tax credit by $75 in this Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, we can state in very budget year and a further $75 in a future budget broad terms the programs and policies and year. That commitment was undertaken in this commitments that the Government has put into year's budget. It was a recognition of the place in support of public school excellence in property taxation explosion that took place at the the province of Manitoba. We can contrast them local level over the past decade, recognition that with the policies of the previous administration, that explosion was primarily the consequence of as we do oftentimes in Question Period. I will provincial offloading in the public school sector not get into the partisan rhetoric that we get into by the provincial government and a recognition in Question Period in this regard, so I will leave that Manitoba's property taxpayers truly required the previous administration's record alone. some level of support at the property tax level as [interjection] The Member thanks me fo r that. a consequence of the increases of the past You are welcome. decade. will talk about the policies and So it was an election commitment. It was commitments and programs that have been put directly tied to the level of the property taxation, into place by this government in support of primarily driven by local educational needs. It is public school excellence, particularly as it relates a commitment that we fe lt as a government and to fu nding and property taxation and so fo rth. continue to fe el as a government is one that local The issue of taxation and guaranteeing whether property taxpayers indeed need afterthe tremen­ taxes will go up or down is a little bit like dous burdens that property taxpayers have been guaranteeing that an asteroid will not hit the placed under over the years. planet. Conditions obviously vary and there are so many unknowns at any level, but this year we I know that members opposite also concur in can deal with the factual basis rather than this view that Manitoba property taxpayers something hypothetical. indeed pay tremendous amounts of dollars and contribute tremendous resources to the public This year in Manitoba, with the increase in school system, to the health system, and to many support that the Government committed to in the other endeavours of government. Relief in terms public schools fu nding announcement, you will of property taxation is something that both know and the Member will know that the parties in this House, I daresay, three parties in Government of Manitoba made a commitment to this House recognize as an important issue. tie public school funding with the rate of economic growth in the province of Manitoba. So that is how it evolved, Mr. Chair. It is We are fo rtunate in Manitoba to have an linked with Education because that is where the economy that is growing. largest increases have been experienced as a consequence of school division taxation. That I think is appropriate, to reflect it in the Education I know that members opposite can take a appropriations, fo r this reason. I would be great deal of credit for that and do in terms of the pleased to answer any more questions. That is a business policies that were undertaken by the pretty broad outline of where it emerged from previous administration. I am pleased to note though. that the growth continues and expands during the mandate of this administration, our government. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, one more question to We have, in that light, tied public education the Minister, in view of what we are going funding to economic growth; that is, the through right now, we have a great deal of Government of Manitoba will invest resources in concern about Bill 42, not to get into a the public school system in a trajectory of dissertation about it at this point in time. fu nding growth. This year that translated to a $30-million injection of new dollars into the Could the Minister reassure this committee base of the public education system in the that the property taxes will not be raised in the province of Manitoba. Next year, with the subsequent years? Will there be enough funding continued growth of the provincial economy, I in the coffers to offset that? expect that figure will be of a similar nature. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4469

This sort of business planning, Mr. increasing support to the system, with a Chairman, which provides for ongoing stability mitigation at the homeowner level and renter in terms of funding the public school system, has level, attacks this problem at both ends. never been undertaken before in the province of Manitoba. It provides for long-term business That is the context within which we are planning, both at the local level and at the framing all of our fiscal expectations vis-a-vis provincial level, with some understanding and the public school system. some analysis tied to economic growth that provides fo r those at the school division level, Mrs. Smith: With all due respect to this the business officials, the secretary-treasurers minister, I know that the intent is I am sure to and so fo rth, as well as those at the government provide the best possible education for students level to co-ordinate fo ur-year, five-year, six-year in Manitoba. In all due respect, talking about the outlooks and fo recasts fo r their programs and fo r taxation and talking about Bill 42, I am sure the their levels of funds. Minister can appreciate, as he just stated a few minutes ago, there are so many variables that * (15:20) come into play that it is hard to predict what the taxes will do. It provides a stability to the public school system broadly as well as funding enhancement Today on CBC, Mr. Chair, as the Minister that is tied to a figure that all parties can and I were speaking on radio this morning or understand, business officials, the province, noon hour, we were talking about the hopes and banks. The public understand economic growth the fears that we had for this bill. In all due as a concept and understand how that is reflected respect, I do think that we had a difference of in dollar terms. That commitment of increased opinion in how the bill would impact the fu nding support to the province will mitigate community. I think from both sides of the House against the local property taxation increase. there is concern there. I guess the Minister is There is no doubt about it. As we as a quite aware that our concern on this side of the government try to restore levels of provincial House is the property tax increases and the fu nding, we do expect a relative decrease in the uncertain economic rate of growth, which is so need to go to local property taxpayers. Th� unpredictable. reverse, of course, is what happened in the past decade, and we are hoping and expecting that the Could this minister please articulate why he same will occur this year. is so certain that this bill is very, very good fo r the students of Manitoba and for the fam ilies in In fact, Mr. Chairperson, in some instances, Manitoba? This side of the House, as you know, the school divisions in the province of Manitoba, and the opposite side of the House as well, I when the public schools funding announcement know is very supportive of teachers. I know the was made this year, did reflect the lowest levels Minister is very mindful of teacher concerns. of local property taxation increases in a number That is very much appreciated. I know that of years. That expectation from that perspective teachers have had a huge job to do with a lot of is one that we hold to. curriculums, a lot of testing, a lot of things that had to be brought into play because of the need As well, Mr. Chairperson, in terms of over for the curriculums to be updated and the need and above, of course, the commitment to fo r accountability. increase funding at the rate of economic growth to the public school system which will mitigate Having said that, I know from the Minister's against local property taxation increases, the comments, Mr. Chair, he is very concerned to property tax credit, the additional $75 in this make sure that teachers do feel supported and budget year and the future increases of the teachers do feel a part of the system and respect property tax credit, will address this problem at it. I say on this side of the House that that is of the other end. That is right in the household, paramount importance to this side of the House. right in the pocketbook, as it were, of the We are very supportive of teachers. As you property taxpayer. The combination of providing know, I was a teacher fo r 22 years. My husband 4470 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 still teaches. Needless to say, we have strong time over to Mr. Derkach, who has some networks out there in the teaching population. questions he would like to ask.

Having talked about the Manitoba property Mr. Caldwell: I want to thank the Member fo r taxes, could this Minister articulate why he is so Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith). It has been a pleasure certain that the taxes will not go through the roof when we have had it, the exchanges. I kind of and he is so certain that teachers will not be like this process a little bit better than Question blamed fo r this happening? This is a concern Period, to tell you the truth, although some of that we have on this side of the House. I am sure my colleagues may not agree with that fr om this is something that this minister has put under some of the earlier sessions. It has been pretty consideration as well. So if he could articulate smooth in Education and Training, and I how he knows that this move to Bill 42 will be appreciate that. in the best interests of the education of the students, it would be much appreciated. * (15:30)

Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chairperson, the answer, I should also say before the Member passes, quite simply, is the historical record. Again, I did get handed a note today from the could speak fo r 20 minutes about this, but it gets Department, and the Member fr om Russell, I into the realm of rhetoric and party politics or note, also appreciates this. There was an error in politics at its worst when we do. But the the list of Red River College Board of historical record, in this regard, on either side of Governors, and I will table the corrections. It Bill 72, which Bill 42 repeals, not in full,I might relates primarily to dates. I am assuming here add, the largest cost driver identified is class size Mr. William Regehr was chair effective July I, and composition. We want to have a broader 2000. I am not sure what was on the record provincial discussion about what policy should before, and Mr. Edgar Martens, member be with regard to class size and composition. But effective July I, 2000. It says: Please destroy the in terms of teachers' salaries, settlements, they listing of current Red River College Board of range in the 2% level, both sides of Bill 72. Governors in your book.

In terms ofthe macro issues-I guess they are I will table that to make sure that is correct. micro issues, frankly-of transfers and so forth, Thank you again. these were all considerations that governed collective bargaining fo r decades, and there is no Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): I would like appreciable explosion. The explosion in property to, if I may, return to the post-secondary area of taxation that took place in the province of the Estimates. I have a couple of questions as Manitoba was not related to the collective they relate to Stevenson Aviation. Then I would bargaining protocols that existed in the province like to move on into the university side, if the fo r the last 40 years. The explosion in property Minister is agreeable to that. taxation related more to the reallocation or redistribution of funding supports for the system. With regard to Stevenson Aviation, can the I am trying to stay away from rhetorical stuff Minister tell us whether or not Stevenson because you get bogged down in it, and there Aviation Centre is still operating out of Portage seems to be no way out unless the Speaker is Ia Prairie? going to stop Question Period. That is usually where we do this sort of thing. That is the Mr. Caldwell: Yes, it is, and actually I spent historical record, the long and short of it. half a day out at Stevenson about three weeks ago and had a great tour of the facility. I know Mrs. Sm ith: I am not sure that the Minister has that the Member knows the fo rmer Portage air articulated quite honestly how this bill is going fo rce base very well himself. I was quite to improve the level of education fo r students in impressed at the work that has been done out the school, but we have gone through quite a few there. Yes, it is still out of Portage and is still hours of Estimates and I would like to tum my hale and hearty. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4471

Mr. Derkach: Can the Minister perhaps just 257 students. In total, in 2000-2001, there were briefly elaborate on the programs that are 346, a very vigorous and growing educational delivered through Stevenson Aviation at this facility. time? Mr. Derkach: Can the Minister tell us whether Mr. Caldwell: While there is a bit of a or not Stevenson Aviation is still involved in the scrambling here to get me some information, truck driver training program as well, or is that there are a number of programs that are available something that has gone by the wayside? out of Stevenson for Manitoba learners, fo r students. Aircraft maintenance engineering. I Mr. Caldwell: Not to my knowledge and not to will articulate a little bit about the growth. I the knowledge of the Deputy, so I would say, to know that Stevenson grew from gestation the best of our understanding, right here with the through the former administration. I know the staff that I have, no, but I could check that again Member would be interested to know that there for the Member if the Member desires. My is still growth at Stevenson and, in some sectors, expectation is the truck driver training has likely quite hardy and robust growth. In the aircraft moved out of that facility and is taking place in maintenance engineer, in 1999-2000, there were different context. I could provide that infor­ 10 students in that program. In 2000-2001, it mation fo r him. It is certainly not on the mushroomed to 95, tremendous growth in the Stevenson note that I have here. Stevenson maintenance engineer program at Stevenson. Aviation Centre is very much identified in terms Aircraft maintenance, in 1999-2000, there was of activity identification is the delivery of the in­ 20 in that particular program. In 2000-2001, school component of the Aircraft Maintenance there was an actual 30. Structural repair Engineer Apprenticeship Program, a number of technician remained constant at 12 in both years. accredited technical training courses to address We are projecting this year fo r 2000-2001 recurrent training and skills upgrading needs of enrollment; we are hoping to get those numbers the aviation industry in other courses to promote up to the range of 20 or so. job entry into the aviation industry. That is the information I have. I know there is eye contact As the Member will know, and I know, as going on between the ADM and the members so, indeed the House knows, the aerospace industry if there is any other information, I would be in Manitoba is a very important industry. It is pleased to hear it. cutting edge, in terms of technology and technological applications. There are tremendous Mr. Derkach: It is just purely fo r information, opportunities in this area. As the previous Mr. Chair, because I have not been involved in administration did under its time in officeand as the education fieldfo r some time. I do know that this administration is doing now in our time of at one time Stevenson Aviation used to run a office, there is significant interest in developing truck driver training program at Birds Hill. They and further expanding this particular industry in had a training course and provided training fo r the province of Manitoba, and, of course, long-distance truck drivers. As a matter of fact, Education and Training plays a role in that. you used to see them coming into the city with a truck driver training logo on the trucks. I was In terms of Canadian aircraft, air just wondering whether that is something that regulations, again, there were 23 last year, 33 went by the wayside in the previous this year. Other areas where there are courses administration or whether it is still operating. offered, AME refresher recurrent programs fo r air maintenance engineers, that expanded tremendously. In 1999-2000, there were 36, in Mr. Caldwell: I was just advised by the deputy, 2000-200 1, 115. Of course those numbers in reference to the Birds Hill, it twigged a fluctuate to a degree because that is a refresher reaction, I suppose, an understanding. But a lot program for those who already operate as air of those programs, the Member would probably maintenance engineers. There are welding be happy to note, the truck driver programs have programs, prior learning assessments, avionics been transferred to private industry, and there are and so fo rth. In total, in 1999-2000, there were a number of schools now. I expect that that is 4472 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 what occurred with the enterprise that he alludes Certainly, industry also has an interest in to, probably a couple of years ago at least. broadening the opportunities available for young Manitobans to have an education in this sector of Mr. Derkach: In the Minister's commitment to our economy, and I am pleased to take that double the enrolment in community colleges, is advice as well. We will be working closely and he also looking at that kind of initiative in the continuing to work closely with Manitoba various training initiatives, such as Stevenson aerospace as an industry group to see what Aviation? training is needed and where we can best deliver it. Mr. Caldwell: In terms of the aerospace industry, Mr. Chair, yes, I think that, again, like As the Member from Russell (Mr. Derkach) the previous administration, we have very close knows, no doubt, the aerospace and aviation dialogue with industry in this particular sector. industry is very well organized as a sector in the We recognize it as a very important industry for province of Manitoba in terms of its global the province, as I mentioned in an earlier remark training needs and where they would like about the cutting-edge nature of the industry in resources to be placed by government. We are terms of high tech and the opportunities that very, I think, working in the same tradition as high tech ·brings with it fo r the larger economy. the previous administration in being responsive to industry needs and trying within the best of * (15:40) our capacity and resources to develop oppor­ tunities based upon those needs. So we have been pleased to note the growth Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, is the Minister or that occurred in educational opportunities this government looking at a review with respect to year, and it is something that the Government of the location of Stevenson Aviation and whether Manitoba continues to support and believe in. it is appropriate fo r it to be located in Portage Ia We expect the aircraft industry to grow in the Prairie? province by up to 50 percent over the next few years, so there will have to be a corresponding Mr. Caldwell: There have been over the years, commitment to the industry. Definitely, there and I expect that the Member knows this as well, will be more interest in assisting and fac ilitating requests from industry in this area, in this sector that growth. which is primarily located around the Winnipeg International Airport, to have a capacity that is Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, does the Minister have closer to home as it were. Those pressures have any plans with regard to expanding the programs existed fo r years and continue to exist. There or the numbers of programs at Stevenson have been discussions for some time now about Aviation, and is he undertaking any kind of a that desire of industry to have closer access to review of the programs that are being offered at the training needs at Winnipeg International Stevenson or its location, fo r that matter? Airport as opposed to some miles west in Portage Ia Prairie. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, the answer is yes to I am very sensitive as minister and the all of them. I can elaborate a little bit further. Government is very sensitive to this issue, both in terms of what industry desires and in terms of The programs at Stevenson, of course, there what Stevenson desires, and that discussion are a number, upwards of a dozen, but they do, continues to occur within the Department. If as the Member understands, represent still only a there is any review that has taken place­ fraction of the opportunities available in the "review" is too hard strong of a word, frankly, aerospace industry, in the aviation industry. We but if there is any debate or discussion on this as a government do expect that Stevenson will particular issue it revolves around those continue to dialogue with government and pressures and those concerns of both industry advocate for program expansions. I certainly am and of Stevenson in Portage as a training interested in receiving that advice. establishment. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4473

Options are always considered on potential I am interested in certainly having-not any outcomes in terms of getting the best delivery sort of task fo rce or anything quite as elaborate for education and the best delivery fo r industry, or ornate as that, but I am interested in all and those sorts of discussions continue. There branches of government or all branches of the certainly is no decision being made on Department and have undertaken some Stevenson's future now in Portage or Stevenson's assessments in branches, as the Member knows future now in the city of Winnipeg. Stevenson's as well, since assuming the office in October. I existed at Portage Ia Prairie at the fo rmer air am interested in getting some advice and some fo rce base, and they run a very good operation range of options and some range of input from out there. the field, from the Department, on how to best deliver aviation training in aerospace technical Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I agree with the training in the province of Manitoba with Minister, that indeed Stevenson Aviation does reference to maximizing the opportunities for run a fairly respectable operation in Portage Ia industry and maximizing the opportunities fo r Prairie. One of the reasons that it was relocated young Manitobans to access the highest level of to Portage was under the initiative of training in the aviation and aerospace sector in decentralization but also important was the the province. establishment of industry and training facilities in Portage Ia Prairie as a result of the There has been a working group, I am abandonment, if you like, of the base. advised here, responding to a study showing the demands in industry. I am interested in, again, as It seemed to be a significant fit with that I mentioned, getting fr om the Department some space, and indeed, I think it has provided an advice about what exactly is the fe eling in the important contribution to the economy of the industry and at Stevenson and in the other post­ community with regard to the training that goes secondary education institutions that also on at Stevenson's. I daresay it is probably appro­ augment this industry and getting some of their priate, because there is a training component in advice back on this issue. But in terms of terms of aviation at Portage as well. anything more specific than that, no, Mr. Chair, fo r the most part my hands are full enough of I guess more specific to the Minister: Is he. items right now as it is. launching or is he contemplating launching a task fo rce or a review by individuals fr om his We have also been in discussion-the Deputy department or outside of the Department of is reminding me that we have been and I have Stevenson vis-a-vis its location in Portage and been personally to Bristol, Boeing and Air Winnipeg? Canada in the city at the establishments that they have at Winnipeg International. I am tremen­ Mr. Caldwell: In this regard, I agree with the dously impressed. You know, being a country Member in terms of the operations of Stevenson boy from Brandon, you do not get a chance and the work it does in terms of providing oftentimes to get into such a high-tech aviation technical training for Manitobans. I do workplace. I am tremendously impressed at the have a sensitivity to the demands of industry aviation and aerospace industry in the province who, after all, in this regard, we are trying to and the tremendous infrastructure establishment fac ilitate as well. There have been, as the they have in the province vis-a-vis that industry. Member knows, over the years, a desire of industry in the aerospace sector, in the aviation I hope I have answered the Member's sector who are primarily located around the questions sufficiently. There is no task fo rce. Winnipeg International Airport to have closer There has been a working group responding to a accessibility, to put the terms of maximizing study by industry in terms of their demands. I resources in terms of infrastructure resources but want to try and make decisions vis-a-vis all areas also maximizing resources in terms of human of the Department based upon best advice. I am resources and opportunities fo r students in the certainly not in any hurry on any issue to wander province. into something. That is a cinch. 4474 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

* (15:50) increase in this particular appropriation in this budget year. Mr. Derkach: In view of the fact that this is an area that is a high-tech area and one which there Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, well, I can say to the seems to be a fairly bright future and a lengthy Minister that in my experience this is an area future for employment and fo r expansion, I note that has trained Manitobans and I guess non­ fr om the Estimates that although there is some Manitobans, but our students specifically, fo r an salary and operating increases, there does not industry that requires and seems to show growth seem to be a significant increase in terms of the in terms of its requirement for that type of program side. So I guess my question with trained individual. I would encourage the regard to the review is based on the fact that we Minister to look at this industry and also seem to be in a pause with regard to expansion encourage him to look at the other components. of programs at Stevenson Aviation. So I am wondering whether the Minister is indeed going Mr. Stan Struthers, Acting Chairperson, in the to be looking at expansion of programming in Chair that area once he has the report of his working group and whether he looks at this area as one I know that the working group may be where there is opportunity for expansion. looking at the needs of industry with regard to where the training is located, but I guess I have Mr. CaldweU: Mr. Chair, yes, I do look at this to relate that back to our communities in rural area as one that is worthy of expansion in the Manitoba where, if we simply tried to meet the province and certainly I think conform with the pressures, I daresay there would not be a view of the previous administration on this university in Brandon nor would there be a particular matter. The Member is right in noting training college in Brandon. We need to take that the primary expansion in the budget this into account, when we measure all of these year for Stevenson is on the salary line and it is issues, the fact of living accommodations for quite modest. There were salaries adj usted to those students who are from out of province or compete with private enterprise. I know that from out of the area. We need to measure such oftentimes those in public service, when they things as the impact on the economy for the area leave public service, have opportunities in terms and also the availability to people in that region of private enterprise of achieving substantially as well. larger salaries. This is an area that we have to be very competitive in, particularly the aerospace So, although we could centralize all sector and the aviation sector. government fu nctions in the Capital region or the Capital city, I think there is merit, and I have a very strong bias towards this and I am not This year, as the Member notes, there was a afraid to admit it, that indeed as a government of very modest increase related primarily around a province we need to show our presence in all salaries, as I just mentioned. This year also, as communities of our province, including the the Member notes, there was not significant smaller and more rural communities of expansion broadly in Stevenson. The primary Manitoba. To me it seems that the distance reason fo r that is not so much looking at between Winnipeg and Portage is not all that Stevenson, but it is directly related to the whole great. In fact, you know that is not a big hurdle idea of the College Expansion Initiative and how in terms of working with the aerospace industry, we are trying to, as a government, reformulate especially when that industry is located on the education and training opportunities at a global western side of the city as well. level to achieve higher participation rates fo r young Manitobans entering the post-secondary So I simply make my comments, and the sector, maximizing resources as we invest in the Minister can take them fo r what they are worth. post-secondary education sector. But, indeed, I would encourage him, as the leader of that particular department, to pay So in terms of Stevenson, I think that is careful attention to the needs of the people in more reflective of why there is a very modest that Portage area before he makes any July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4475 movements to remove that training centre from issue remain to be developed and are being the community of Portage. Indeed I can tell him developed actually as we speak, so I expect, and that we will be keeping a close eye on that as I will give you my expectation. I do not talk well because, as I indicated to him before, I do about hypotheticals, but we are committed to have a strong bias towards opportunities in rural having an expansion of college enrollment in the Manitoba as well. province, a very ambitious program. I expect that there will be implications in terms of growth Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Acting Chair, I think that all throughout the system as that program is of us, the Member fo r Russell (Mr. Derkach), the undertaken, but in terms of the presence, the Member fo r Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), and the centre at Portage Ia Prairie, I expect it will also Member fo r Brandon East (Mr. Caldwell) have a have some positive impact to that particular similar sense fo r those communities that are program. outside of the city of Winnipeg. So we are all amongst friends in that particular issue. The We also want to work more closely between issue will be studied very carefully, if indeed we colleges and schools, Mr. Chair, especially vis-a­ go down that road, and I share the sensitivity vis adult learning centres as has been the case at that both you have and the Member for Russell the Brandon Adult LearningCentre, so we are in has fo r those communities outside of the Capital a curious little situation here and I am going to Region and the city of Winnipeg. record this fo r posterity. This may be the first time that a Minister has shared briefing, not I believe it is appropriate to assess the entire notes but little advice that comes from the context in all decision making before a decision Deputy Minister. Typically, it is a pile of paper is concluded. I will likely set my staff to that gets shoved in front of the Minister, as I cringing when I mention this, after it being in the know the Member fo r Russell will remember papers so much over the last couple of weeks, from his days as minister. Doctor Levin has but certainly the process that we are undertaking brought in a laptop today which he is as a government vis-a-vis the expansion of the assiduously punching out notes fo r me and Red River College in the downtown area of the holding it in front of my face, so it is kind of city of Winnipeg, we want to really have a interesting. So, at any rate, I expect that detailed assessment of the impacts on all throughout the system there will be some decisions as we move fo rward, achieving the positive implications for rural centres wherever maximum use of resources and the maximum there is a presence fo r Red River Community benefit to Manitobans in our decision making. College, Assiniboine Community College and So I do agree with the Member fo r Russell, and I Keewatin Community College. do in fact share his view in this regard. * (16:00) Mr. Derkach: Not specifically against Stevenson Aviation, more related to Red River Mr. Derkach: Can the Minister advise how College, but still in the community of Portage Ia many staff are currently in place in Portage Ia Prairie, I guess specificallyRed River College, I Prairie fr om Red River Community College and think, has an office or it is a spot in Portage. I what their operating and salary program lines are am wondering whether or not the Minister is and also what programs they offer from that contemplating any expansion of that centre in centre? Portage Ia Prairie. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, staff is just preparing Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Acting Chairman, certainly that, and I note with humour that it is not the expansion in programming is at the direction something that Doctor Levin fe els he can punch of the Board of Red River Community College into his computer and get up right away, but we in the main. The College Expansion Initiative will have the information fo r the Member does provide fo r a regional expansion, distance momentarily. There is, as the Member knows, a education as components, Mr. Chair. The considerable presence of educators throughout College Expansion Initiative, the broad shape is the province, with all the colleges particularly, known but the details of the college expansion because they have a larger local presence in the 4476 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000 rural communities throughout Manitoba, so there have and what their operating grants and are substantial numbers throughout the province. operating financial responsibilities are. Doctor Levin is now scrawling a note to me on a piece of paper, so we should have some answer Mr. Caldwell: I can give some advice in terms very soon. Oh, he writes, "We do not have those of centres that Assiniboine College and Red here." Oh, Doctor LeTourneau has given me River College and Keewatin Community some material now. The note that Doctor College offe r in diffe rent areas of the province. I LeTourneau has given me here is: "The regional will read some of that in right now. Assiniboine campuses have technology access sites within Community College, obviously, operates in the their regions. They are the primary producers of Parkland Southwest Regional Centre, Russell, adult computer literacy, expertise. I do not have the Member's home constituency. It also any raw numbers in terms of educators, but I operates in the Neepawa Training Centre, the will endeavour, if the Member would like, to get Killarney Resource Centre. It offe rs programs you those numbers. I do not think that we have out of Swan River fr om the Swan Valley School them here right now. Division, as well as projected regional projects fo r 2000-200 I in Churchill, Flin Flon, Pemechikamik and, again, Swan River regional. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Chair, I would cer­ Red River offers fo ur regional campuses in tainly be appreciative ofthe Minister if he would Portage, Winkler, Gimli and Steinbach, as well provide that kind of information fo r me, not as a regional centre in Selkirk. Keewatin because it is of some value to me to be able to operates in small operations in a number of come back at government and criticize them or communities throughout the North. anything of that nature. It is fo r information, and I know that the Minister can tell me, well, get I had an answer from staff vis-a-vis the your own information in that regard, but, really, Member's previous question on educators and our information has to come accurately from numbers and so forth. That information, the government, and I think that is government colleges themselves have. If the Member desires, responsibility. I would like to also ask the I have no problem inquiring of the colleges to Minister if he could do the same fo r me. I know get that information fo r him, and I would be he may not have that information here today, but pleased to do that. it is not information that I require right at this moment. Certainly, if it could come to me in Mr. Derkach: I would like that information. I written form at a later date, I would be thank the Minister fo r indicating positively that appreciative of it, and that is the area of each he would get that fo r me. I appreciate that. community college and what outreach offices they operate at the present time and what Mr. Chair, if I might continue in this regard, programs are available fr om each of those in the area of the community colleges, we look outreach offices. at the areas of the virtual college or the distance education learning centre. I know I had pursued By outreach offices or centres, I guess I this with the Minister earlier, but I want to ask mean, in the case of Red River, do they operate the Minister more specifically whether he has only in Portage Ia Prairie, or do they operate in any specific plans with regard to the distance other areas? I think they operate in southern education learning centre or college which can Manitoba as well. Assiniboine Community deliver programs throughout the province College, I know, do a distance ed learning without having a campus associated with it. If I program. They also have some centres. I believe might continue, the reason I asked that question Keewatin Community College does, the same is because there seems to be some speculation on with Thompson and with some of the northern behalf of individuals around Manitoba that communities. As I indicated, it is just fo r indeed this is something that is in the works fo r information fo r me as a critic for post-secondary the future year. I am wondering whether the education, so I am a little more knowledgeable Minister has any specificplans in that regard and with regard to where these centres are, what whether he has allocated any funding fo r that programs they operate, how many staff they initiative. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4477

Mr. Caldwell: Yes, as I had noted earlier, the Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, the number is whole idea and concept of Campus Manitoba, $800,000, I am advised. The Deputy dated which the Member fo r Russell (Mr. Derkach) himself here. He said the University Grants pioneered during his time as minister, is Commission a moment ago, but it is Council on something that we have an interest in Post-Secondary Education. That is where it government to continue expanding. I think that appears, and I am getting great delight in reading over the course of the mandate we will continue into the record the Deputy Minister here today, to expand Campus Manitoba, including into the taking my last shot at it fo r this year. colleges and not just universities. Over the course of the mandate, I think that in most areas Just to direct the Member to it directly. It is of education and training in the province of 16.7 and it falls under the University Operating Manitoba, we want to achieve growth, in terms Grants line item, 16.7(b), I am sorry, page 149. of Manitobans participating at higher rates in It is not delineated as a separate line item, but post-secondary education. Indeed, in education that is where it falls. at all levels in the province of Manitoba, we believe in the concept of life long learning, and Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I guess I still have are trying to facilitate that concept wherever we trouble finding it. I note that under 16.7 (b) can within the province. University Operating Grants, account fo r-is that where the item would be fo und, under the regular University Operating Grants? Colleges are planning a Campus Manitoba presence within them, Mr. Chair, which will Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, that is correct. probably start with a business administration program, delivery of a business administration program via Campus Manitoba. This will be Mr. Chairperson in the Chair contextualized again in the broader framework of the college expansion issue for the province, Mr. Derkach: So the Minister is telling me that but I think it is safe to assure the Member that approximately $800,000 is allocated to this the Government is interested in continuing to initiative? broaden and expand the delivery of distance education in the province. I would be remiss if I Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, that is correct. did not note with appreciation the work that the Member did in developing the Campus Mr. Derkach: Could the Minister tell me how Manitoba program during his tenure as minister. that compares to the previous year?

Colleges, Mr. Chair, have been slower to get Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, the amount is the involved in Campus Manitoba historically in the same. province, because there are fe wer generic programs such as arts and sciences that lend Mr. Derkach: So is the Minister telling me that themselves to large enrolments. They are more they did not get the same increase in funding as fo cussed and more specific in their programs, the universities receive? but having said that, that is a challenge. It is not Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, I am advised by an obstacle. Doctor LeTourneau that additional grants have been provided over the last number of years in Mr. Derkach: I thank the Minister for that, and addition to $800,000. In terms of the $800,000 I notice that there is no line for Campus figure, I think, similarly with Stevenson, we Manitoba. I am wondering whether the Minister want to, as government, get a handle on the could direct me to the line or whether in fact he broad details, I suppose, of allocations and place could advise me as to what the budget for them within the context of what we want to Campus Manitoba is? achieve for the College Expansion Initiative. This also falls under that sort of caution, I * (16:10) suppose. 4478 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Mr. Derkach: So, Mr. Chair, when the Minister base of information from the Minister that we says that additional grants are provided over and can then look at at a later point in time. above $800,000, can he give me an amount? I would like to move, with the permission of Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, in '98 and '99, there the Minister, to some other areas within the post­ was an additional $300,000; in '99-2000, an secondary area. I know we spent a fair bit of additional $250,000. time on the Minister's Estimates, so I am not going to try and keep him that long. I do have Mr. Derkach: Can the Minister advise what some questions as they relate to the labour these grants were fo r? market training area. This is an area that the Department has taken over from the federal Mr. Caldwell: In the main, Mr. Chair, they were government and one which, I think, we have a to develop new courses. better approach now to be honest with you in terms of how we deliver the labour market Mr. Derkach: So the allocation of monies over programs in the province. and above the base of $800,000 was fo r the development of new courses, but is there any I note that some of the labour market offices money over and above the base grant for the have been amalgamated and have been closed. I implementation or introduction or the delivery of am just wanting to ask the Minister whether or new programs? not the presence of these labour market offices in the communities is still there or whether now Mr. Caldwell: There was no need for new that has been amalgamated into community dollars because the new courses, I have been college centres or offices on a more regional advised, could be delivered with the existing basis. staff complement. Mr. Caldwell: We do share a space with the Mr. Derkach: So they are simply replacements fe deral government in many of these offices. fo r programs that were offered before or in There have not been any closed. There have addition to? If it is in addition to, there has to be been some consolidations. Yes, there have been a requirement for resources to deliver those some consolidations of space. The Province programs. I guess my question is: How, then, do maintains all the offices that the fe deral you account for increased resources when you government had in the same places, so the do not allocate more money? consolidation, I think, is likely what the Member was referring to. Mr. Caldwell: It is in addition to. The cost offset is twofold: one with existing capacity Mr. Derkach: I guess more specifically to the being the capacity of the Department to deliver, Minister: Is he telling us that all of the offices the branch or Campus Manitoba to deliver, as that were present in previous years will be well as tuition fe es offsetting. maintained in the various communities?

Mr. Chairperson: Who wants to speak? * (16:20)

Mr. Caldwell: I do not know if the Member Mr. Caldwell: We have no plans in the heard me. These are new courses in addition to Department to have any alteration in this regard. existing ones. The cost implications to deliver I cannot predict what may happen looking out, the courses are offset from two areas. One is but there are certainly no plans at present. existing capacity. There was existing capacity within Campus Manitoba. The remainder offs et is from tuition fees charged. Mr. Derkach: Can the Minister advise whether or not in the agreement with the fe deral Mr. Derkach: I do not want to spend a lot of government there is increased funding fo r this time on these. I just simply want to get some area in this current year? July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4479

Mr. Caldwell: There have been some marginal Assistance Program. In this area, there is a increases. The Deputy advises that they are in substantial increase from the $33 million to the range of 1 percent or less. So there is some $49-million number, but I want to ask the marginal increase here. Minister whether or not the support to student financial assistance has been in the form of the Mr. Derkach: Can the Minister advise what the matching Canada-Manitoba Millennium Scho­ Province's allocation over and above the past larship and bursary fund or whether in fact there year has been to this initiative? have been substantive changes in the other areas of loans and bursaries and if you like, student Mr. Caldwell: The levels are essentially the financial assistance to students in Manitoba same. There are some marginal differences, but institutions. the level of support that the Province is putting in 2000-2001 is notionally the same as the Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chairman, there is new amount that the Province put in in 1999-2000. money in this area, $6 million to the bursary program, and as the Member notes, the federal Mr. Derkach: I think we have covered the area Millennium Scholarship fund an additional $11 of the community colleges. We have covered the million. area of labour market training, the Campus Manitoba. In all of those areas, Mr. Chair, with Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, can I ask the Minister the exception ofthe community college area, the why there has been a decrease in the Manitoba Minister has indicated that there have been Learning Tax Credit Program fo r students in marginal increases but not substantive. Yet, 2000 and 2001? when we ask questions in the House, the Minister talks about the enormous increases to Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chairman, the program education. I will acknowledge one thing, and remains unchanged, as I know the Member will that is that the Minister has had greater resources appreciate because it was a program begun by because of the adequate provisions that were left the previous administration. The estimated take­ to his governmentby the previous governmentto up is the reason fo r the reflectionthere. be able to deal with funding. So he has had the latitude to be able to do that. Mr. Derkach: Is the Department then projecting fe wer students who are going to be requiring the The Minister also makes reference when we assistance, fewer students or less assistance ask questions of him in the House about, quote, required by students who are going to be unquote, cutbacks to education from the fo rmer attending our institutions? administration. I took the liberty of going back through previous years' Estimates to see Mr. Caldwell: There is an expectation that the precisely the kinds of shortfalls that the Minister decrease in the tuition rates will · have a was referring to in Question Period. I think that corresponding effect in this area. if the Minister were to examine those numbers more critically, he would find that indeed there Mr. Derkach: I think the Minister wanted to has been some creative accounting on his part, or complete his answer. perhaps on his spin doctor's part, with regard to the reality of how funding has been allocated to Mr. Caldwell: Just a further detail, Mr. Chair. education. The Finance Department also does analysis based upon the projections that are derived at Having said that and having that off my from their analysis. In this area, that has also chest, Mr. Chairman, I have to say that I been reflected. encourage the Minister to continue to support these areas of education, because I do find and Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, that answer leads us to fe el that they are extremely important to the the next area and that is the one of the tuition economy of our province, to the future of our rebate. I know the Government's thrust was to province, and indeed to the young people of our try to show significant initiative in the post­ province. That leads me to the Student Financial secondary area and especially to students who 4480 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

might be attending universities and colleges in I think at the end of the day the student is Manitoba. However, I think there was a bit of going to be the one who is going to suffer shortfall in the planning and the projecting of the because the numbers of programs, the numbers impact that this would have on the overall of courses, the professors are just not going to be system. I have to say that although this provides there that is expected of an institution like the some short-term relief, if you like, for students University ofManitoba. who are attending our post-secondary institutions, it certainly does have a negative I guess my worry goes beyond that because impact on the overall system in that it does not our university here in Manitoba has to compete allow our post-secondary institutions to be able with other universities across the land. I know of to adjust their revenues in a positive sense so numerous students who are leaving our province that they can continue to provide the same level to find educational opportunities in other of programming at our institutions. jurisdictions. They do that because of the availability of programs at these other insti­ Our universities have stated very clearly that tutions. It is not because they want to leave they have had to reduce funding in almost every Manitoba because it is a terrible province. faculty at the University of Manitoba. What this Indeed many of them regret having to do that. means is, and there is no magic to any of this, if The only place they can access some of these universities are not allowed to increase tuition programs is at institutions outside of our fe es and if they are not given the same amount province. of money that is going to be taken out of their budget as a result of the reduced tuition fees, I fe ar if we continue this initiative that then they have to be faced with nothing less than indeed it is going to be a very difficult one for cutting programs or cutting faculty or a bit of government, and one which will land this both. There has been some dismay expressed by government in a bit of hot water, but more our universities at that issue. I would say that importantly, will diminish the competitive perhaps and perhaps the ability of our post-secondary institutions, espe­ University of Winnipeg can probably cope with cially the largest one in our province. this for the coming year. But, indeed at the University of Manitoba, which is our largest So I want to ask the Minister, I know that university and the one that deals more this was an election promise. I know that this specifically with research in the higher learning was a commitment that was made during the areas, and is one that is probably an institution election. And I know how strongly a government that depends largely on attracting students from wants to fulfill its commitment pledge. But now other areas of the globe, if you like, this that they have done this for the first year, is the institution is going to be affected adversely by Minister prepared to take a look at all aspects of the initiative undertaken by the Government. this initiative and to re-examine whether in fact Although through its initiative the Government this is a prudent way to go or whether in fact will be reducing tuition fe es by some $8 million, there may be a change of heart with regard to the impact on our universities is more than that. this initiative in the next fiscal year?

* (16:30) Mr. Caldwell: I appreciate the Member's comments and indeed share his concerns about a I know that in tough economic times, a policy which may have impacts which are government may from time to time, have to negative as opposed to positive on any issue that influence the universities not to raise tuition government looks at. The Member is accurate in fe es. In a time when our economy is growing, in stating that the commitment that this government a time when there is an abundance of funding made was for 1 0 percent tuition reduction fo r because tax revenues to the province are young Manitobans and not-so-young Manito­ growing, it seems to be a regressive step to take bans attending and registering fo r post­ an issue like this and not allow universities to be secondary education in the province this year. It able to, in a progressive way, enhance their was an election commitment. The Department ability to offe r programs that should be offered. right now is looking at the issue more broadly of July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 448I affordability. I would acknowledge, I think, Mr. It is also an issue that is being researched by the Chairperson, that the I 0 percent tuition reduction Council of Ministers of Education in Canada, so fo r 2000-200I is, in terms of a longer-scale Manitoba is not alone in dealing with this issue. perspective, a longer perspective, something that This administration, of course, is not alone in is not sustainable on that level. It is something dealing with it. The previous administration also that is very much responsive to the here and had to deal with the whole issue of tuition, and I now. believe froze tuition for a number of years at some point during their tenure. The whole issue of affordability, the Department would like to consult broadly on the As I said, I do take the Member's remarks matter with student groups, with institutions, and-[interjection] I am sorry, I should not have with others. In fact that process of consultation is said frozen-capped tuition increases during part underway because government does need to of their administration. So the whole issue of address the issue of increasing costs to students tuition- and also increasing costs to institutions. They are not mutually exclusive, which I think the An Honourable Member: There is a difference. Member rightly points out. Mr. Caldwell: Yes, there is a difference. I We as a government do have to increase acknowledge that, vigorously nodding my head participation rates in our post-secondary here. Had capped tuition during its mandate. So institutions and also increase outcomes in our the whole issue of tuition is something that does post-secondary institutions. Making those have to be sensitively dealt with. It does have to institutions affordable to students is very be dealt with in a larger context, in the context of important, as is providing adequate resources to affordability, but also in the context of how it make sure institutions are fulfillingthe mandate impacts upon programs at universities. I do share that they have to provide educational excellence. the Member's concerns and know that he will As the Member knows, this past year provide the best advice to me as we move on this universities in the province of Manitoba got the agenda. largest increase in support in a number of years.

The Member points out that the opportunity Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, this is where, I guess, was made available by the fact that the Treasury the Minister and I part ways in terms of our is in somewhat better condition than it has been. thinking with regard to support to students We do, in the province, have a growing because the Minister knows, as well as I do, that economy which is allowing an opportunity fo r there are students across this province who have that investment in the post-secondary system. I different means, depending on their socio­ do take the Member's comments seriously. I economic status within society. To give recognize them as legitimate concerns. Certainly everybody a 10% reduction in tuition fees does I do share the concern that whatever level and not necessarily mean the same to each and every whatever policy, when it is being considered, the student in the province, because there are consideration must be broader than just the students who have lesser means. And there are individual programmer policy, in this case, a I 0 students who face substantially greater costs as it percent tuition reduction. relates to attending a university in the province of Manitoba and even attending the same I am sensitive to those concerns. I think it is programs within a university. I refer the Minister important to note in Manitoba, though, as well, to students who perhaps live in the city of that a large portion of students in the province Winnipeg, who live at home, who attend a cannot afford the level of increases imposed by university, and students who attend university universities, and we have heard that anecdotally from outside the city who have to incur costs for over the last number of years. Four provinces in transportation, costs for living accommodation, Canada right now have frozen fees. Therefore costs fo r transportation within the city, fo r that the issue of affordability is very much on the matter, but that is not different from students public agenda broadly in the country right now. who live in the city on a full-timeba sis. 4482 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

So, there are two areas, I think, of costs that As he rightly points out, the objective is to are significantly different for students who enhance affordability fo r Manitobans, and if attend our institutions from outside of the city of there are ways of managing those resources Winnipeg. It would seem to me that those areas more efficiently and getting a greater impact in can be addressed through a bursary or a terms of participation rates in the province, that scholarship program much more effectively, is certainly what we are interested in in this because then we are talking about addressing the exercise. needs of students rather than giving everybody the same kind of reprieve, if you like, which Mr. Chair, I wonder if I might be indulged does not translate to that same amount of relief fo r a five-minute break, if that is acceptable, fo r each and every student. And so I simply do not agree with giving everybody the same Mr. Chairperson: Break, four and a half amount of reduction in tuition fees on a minutes. percentage basis, because I do not think it translates to equity. The Committee recessed at 4:43p.m.

* (16:40)

The second thing that it does, by doing this, The Committee resumed at 4:55p.m. we are really hampering our universities to be able to deal with the programs and the professors Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I would just like to that they have to have in place and the resources tum to the area of Capital Grants, if I might with of the universities. the Minister, and ask the Minister, with regard to universities, the Capital Grants line is precisely I am wondering whether or not the Minister the same as it was the previous year. Can the is going to be looking at this whole initiative Minister give me an explanation of this line what again and whether or not he will be more closely it entails, and whether or not there was a demand looking at the Manitoba Bursary Program from our universities to enhance this area, and because the scholarship program, as I understand what the response was from the Minister? it, is done through the fe deral government, whereas the Bursary Program is done through Mr. Caldwell: I know the staff is getting some the Province, but both programs are detailed information fo r me in that regard. The administered by the Province. The money for the question is about whether there is some demand financial assistance fo r students does come for Capital Grants from post-secondary insti­ largely from the fe deral government, the Student tutions and what my reply was. Yes, there are Loans Program comes from the federal demands fo r capital support from post-secondary government, as I understand it. I may be education. I know the Member was chuckling corrected on that, and certainly I give the when I said that, and he appreciates, as a fo rmer Minister the opportunity to do that. minister, exactly how loud those demands get from time to time. The response in terms of how I would ask the Minister whether or not, in I respond as a minister when those demands are his own mind, he does not think that addressing made is probably likewise very similar to the student financial needs through the bursary and fo rmer member's response. We have to place the scholarship program is not a better way than request within the context of available resources, giving everybody just a decrease of I 0 percent in something which there is not an endless supply their tuition. of in the province of Manitoba or indeed anywhere else for that matter. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, the Member's points are well taken, and it is fo r precisely this sort of Mr. Derkach: I guess I want to ask for debate that the Department is assessing the clarification from the Minister with regard to whole issue of affordability. Certainly, the Capital Grants to universities. There were $10 remarks that he has placed onto the record today million or $11 million almost allocated the will go into that deliberation by the Department. previous year. The same has been allocated this July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4483 year. My question is: Is this for new capital, or is fundingor any increase in funding fo r capital fo r this fo r the amortized capital payments that have the university or fo r the community college area. to be made on capital that has been provided to the universities? Mr. Caldwell: In its broad strokes, yes, the Member is correct in that statement. Mr. Caldwell: The Province of Manitoba does not amortize university capital at this point. With Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, there is also a line regard to the question about new dollars, included here, Recoverable from Capital $6,940,000 was for new major capital and $4 Initiatives. Can the Minister just give me an million was fo r renovations, equipment and so indication where that is recoverable from? I used fo rth. It is new capital. The $4 million in to know but I need a refresher. renovations and equipment broke out to $3 million fo r the University of Manitoba­ Mr. Caldwell: The previous practice, I am [interjection]-yes, because I expected that was advised, is that government had a capital fund going to be your next question-$550,000 fo r the fo r all initiatives across government, a special University of Winnipeg, $350,000 fo r Brandon amount of money fo r capital across government University, and $100,000 for College and that is why that figure is reflected in '99- universitaire de Saint-Boniface. 2000 Estimates and not in the 2000-2001.

Mr. Derkach: I note that, with regard to the Mr. Derkach: So, in essence, we will have a capital, it is exactly the same as the previous capital program that is $4.5 million less in this year, and yet I know that the infrastructure at the fiscal year because-or was the $4.5 million university is demanding more. From time to time recoverable from the total of $36 million in the when we were in government we used to inject previous year? extra capital money into the universities fo r such things as an example, the steam tunnels or the Mr. Caldwell: No, more precisely, it is an renovation of the steam heating system at the accounting protocol. The money, the $4.5 University of Manitoba. We also did, I think, a million that the Member mentions came into the special allocation of funding to the Brandon Department of Education and Training from University Library, Clark Hall, and, I believe, to other areas of government last year. This year it the department of Agriculture at the University is reflected in departmental only. of Manitoba. I am wondering, although this is regular capital, whether or not there are special Mr. Derkach: Can the Minister give me an allocations that the Minister is going to be indication of what the Amortized Capital Assets fo rwarding to the universities fo r special projects line reflects? in the current year. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, they are primarily Mr. Caldwell: In terms of special projects, we related to computer equipment. They are listed have not gone down that road as the previous just below-oh, they are not. Page 171 perhaps? government did as of yet. I cannot speculate We have so many Estimates books here, I know again on what may or may not happen in the that the Member has just changed his books. future, because, as the Member notes, there is a significant capital deficit in the system and there Mr. Chairperson: Now, who has the floorhere? are significant challenges in the system that need You have. some redress, so I will not rule that out in the future but in terms of this year's Estimates, no. Mr. Caldwell: It is page 171 and I think that There is not any plans to that effect. outlines it. I note that the Member is nodding his head so I think we have all found it now. * (17:00) Mr. Derkach: But can the Minister provide fo r Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, so in essence the me what the new amortized costs fo r 2000-2001 Department has not allocated any additional are of$153,200? 4484 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, it relates to equip­ am somewhat disappointed in the ment, primarily computers, but I think there is a Government in that an election commitment that note at the bottom of the page, reflects the was made, which I think was somewhat short­ amortized cost for purchased capital assets and sighted, even after the impact of it was noted by that is primarily where that $153,000 in total many who were not necessarily politically amortization of capital assets, new amortized motivated but who were looking at it from a costs in 200 I comes from the purchased capital practical point of view, could not encourage the assets. Government to change its mind with regard to the initiative. I have some hope that indeed the Mr. Derkacb: Will the Minister identify them Minister is going to relook at the issue and is for me, please? going to examine it whether or not in fact it was a bit short-sighted and could be changed and Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, the Department's broadened to more accurately reflect the needs bubble scanner, some computer equipment, of students in our province and to give our those sorts of items within the Department are universities a better opportunity to indeed be responsible fo r the new amortized costs. able to continue to expand their programs and maintain the resources that they have at their Mr. Derkacb: Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair. disposal. So, in that particular area, I do have think I understand where that area comes fr om. some disappointment.

I think that sort of completes the issues that I I know the Minister said to Manitobans that wanted to deal with in the Estimates process this his increase to post-secondary education was at year with regard to post-secondary education. least at the level of the cost of living. However, But I do want to make a couple of final when one examines the real cost or the real comments before we start going line by line. increase to education, it waters down from that level to something somewhat less. I think that we all experience that because although we want First of all, I want to say to the Minister that to be noble in our gesture of grants offered to the I would like to thank his staff fo r providing the institutions that we have responsibility fo r, when information. Indeed, in my experience with the we apply it to the fo rmulas we find that the staff that are still fam iliar to me who work in the numbers do not quite come out to where they Department, I have to say that they are very were when we had made the announcements. dedicated to their job. Indeed, I appreciate the work that they do on behalf of us as government *(17:10) and on behalf of the students and people in the education area in Manitoba. I know these are Mr. Chair, I do not fault the Minister professional people and certainly we appreciate purposely fo r that, but I do hold him accountable their time. Sometimes, I know that during the fo r the comments that he makes with regard to Estimates process it must become very the commitment to education and the frustrating fo r them, but indeed I do appreciate commitment to the funding for education. If he the fact that they have been patient and have says that in fact he will afford to give given us the answers straightforwardly. universities grants that are equal to the cost of living or to the growth of our economy, then Mr. Chair, with regard to government, indeed I expect that he will do that genuinely have to say to the Minister that indeed he has and without trying to be creative in the figures inherited a department that is large in that he puts fo rward. I do not blame him fo r that government, one that will be filled with specifically, but indeed it is a government challenges as he proceeds, and one that I think responsibility. every Manitoban has some interest in because everyone has gone to school, has been there and We were in governmentthrough years when has indeed got a keen interest to better our it was difficult, in years when the economy of society through education, and investment in this province was in the dumps, if you like, and education is an important area to all of us. we were going through probably the worst July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4485 recession since the Great Depression for that 1.( e) Financial and Administrative Services matter. Therefore, we were limited in the means (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $764,500- that we had at our disposal to be able to give to pass; (2) Other Expenditures $257,1 00-pass. our universities. The Minister lives in a different time. I expect that this government will be l.(f) Management Information Services (1) generous with our universities to the extent that Salaries and Employee Benefits $715,900-pass: it can, prudent with its dollars, but indeed invest (2) Other Expenditures $304,500-pass. in our universities and our education system in a very respectable way. I think Manitobans are l.(g) Research and Planning (1) Salaries and waiting fo r that. Employee Benefits $3 1 9,300-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $160,900-pass. Politically, we can say things that perhaps make those out who are not involved in the day­ 2. School Programs (a) Division Ad­ to-day affairs of education believe that indeed ministration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits we are doing our job. At the end of the day, the $327,200-pass; (2) Other Expenditures proof is in the opportunities that we really make $96,300-pass. available to the students and that we make sure that those students stay in this province, not only 2.(b) Manitoba School for the Deaf (1) to get education and then leave, but I think we Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,873,000- have to provide some incentives fo r students to pass; (2) Other Expenditures $634,900-pass. stay here after they have graduated so that indeed they can become productive members of 2.(c) Assessment and Evaluation (1) Salaries our society and contribute to the economy of our and Employee Benefits $2,1 05,500-pass; (2) province. Other Expenditures $2,093,200-pass.

The Minister has an enormous amount of 2.(d) Program Development (1) Salaries and work that is fa cing him. He has an enormous Employee Benefits $3,437,000-pass; (2) Other responsibility. I understand that. Certainly, as an Expenditures $4,211 ,400-pass. opposition critic, I will not only criticize him but indeed at times when there are initiatives that he 2.(e) Program Implementation (1) Salaries undertakes that are positive, I will certainly give and Employee Benefits $3,115,700-pass; (2) him the credit for that as well. Other Expenditures $2,035,200-pass.

2.(f) Student Services (1) Salaries and With those few comments and my com­ Employee Benefits $1 ,929,300-pass; (2) Other ments to the staff here, I think, and I will defer to Expenditures $73 1,500-pass. the critic of the K to 12 area, we are prepared to go line by line, Mr. Chair. Resolution 16.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Mr. Chairperson: Item 16.1 Administration and $23,590,200 fo r Education and Training, School Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day Employee Benefits $505,600-pass; (2) Other of March, 2001. Expenditures $96,800-pass. Resolution agreed to. l.(c) Native Education Directorate (1) 3. Bureau de L'Education Francaise (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $397,900-pass; Division Administration ( 1) Salaries and Em­ (2) Other Expenditures $125,1 00-pass. ployee Benefits $141 ,900-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $23,700- pass. l.(d) Human Resource Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $670,000-p ass; (2) 3.(b) Curriculum Development and Imple­ Other Expenditures $146,600-pass. mentation (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits 4486 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

$1,19 2,900-pass; (2) Other Expenditures 5.(d) Schools Grants (1) Operating Grants $978, 1 00-pass. $615,142,200-pass; (2) General Support Grants $19,933, 700-pass. 3.(c) Educational Support Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,227,000- 5.(e) Other Grants $2,364,600-pass. pass; (2) Other Expenditures $658,800-pass. 5.(f) Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund 3.(d) Official Languages Programs and $77,813,400-pas s. Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $812,800-pass; (2) Other 5.(g) Manitoba Education, Research and Expenditures $1 ,357,800-pass; (3) Assistance LearningInf ormation Networks $493,300-pass. $1,376,700-pass. Resolution I6.5: RESOLVED that there be 3.(e) Library and Materials Production (1) granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Salaries and Employee Benefits $460,500-pass; $72I ,821 ,200 fo r Education and Training, (2) Other Expenditures $280,600-pass. Support to Schools, fo r the fiscal year ending the 3Ist day of March, 200 I. Resolution I6.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Resolution agreed to. $8,5I 0,800 for Education and Training, Bureau de !'Education Fran�aise, fo r the fiscal year 6. Training and Continuing Education (a) ending the 3Ist day of March, 200 I. Management Services (I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $743,200-pass; (2) Other Expenditures Resolution agreed to. $230,400-pass; (3) Advanced Education and Training Assistance $I ,287 ,300-pass. 4. Property Tax Credits (a) Manitoba Property Tax Credit $I46,470,000-pass; (b) Pensioners' School Tax Assistance $4,040,000- 6.(b) Labour Market Support Services (1) pass. Salaries and Employee Benefits $465,900-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $I41,700-pass. Resolution I6.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 6.(c) Adult Literacy and Continuing $150,5IO,OOO for Education and Training, Education (I) Salaries and Employee Benefits Property Tax Credits, for the fiscal year ending $276, 700-pass; (2) Other Expenditures the 3Ist day of March, 2001. $92,200-pass; (3) Grants $I,213,500-pass. Resolution agreed to. 6.(d) Youth Programs (I) Salaries and * (17:20) Employee Benefits $I,359,200-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $44I,70 0-pass; (3) CareerS tart 5. Support to Schools (a) Schools Finance $2,480,800-pass; (4) Youth Community (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $845,900- Partnerships $4,525,000-pass; (5) Partners for pass; (2) Other Expenditures $I65,600-pass; (3) Careers $400,000-pass; (6) Less: Recoverable Property Assessment $2,300,300-pass. from Aboriginal and Northern Affairs ($200,000}--pass; (7) Less: Recoverable from 5 .(b) Education Administration Services (I) Rural and Urban Economic Development Salaries and Employee Benefits $I ,336,600- Initiatives ($4,2I 2,500}--pass. pass; (2) Other Expenditures $492, 700-pass. 6.(e) WORKFORCE 2000 (1) Salaries and 5.(c) Schools Information System (1) Employee Benefits $3 I7,400-pass; (2) Other Salaries and Employee Benefits $395,900-pass; Expenditures $79,200-pass; (3) Training (2) Other Expenditures $537,000-pass. Support $1 ,000,000-pass. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4487

6.(f) Stevenson Aviation Centre (1) Salaries 7.(f) Access Programs $6,609,700-pass. and Employee Benefits $820,400-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $63 1,l 00-pass. 7.(g) Student Financial Assistance (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,743,800- 6.(g) Apprenticeship (1) Salaries and pass; (2) Other Expenditures $664,500-pass; (3) Employee Benefits $2,457,100-pass; (2) Other Loans and Bursaries $7,642,200-pass; (4) Expenditures $688,900-pass; (3) Training Interest Relief and Debt Reduction $1,147,600- Support $2,545,500-pass. pass; (5) Manitoba Scholarship and Bursaries Initiative $5,000,000-pass; (6) Manitoba 6.(h) Employment and Training Services (1) Learning Tax Credit $14,350,000-pass; (7) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,653,600- Canada Study Grants $2,1 00,200-pass; (8) pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,952,700-pas s; Canada Millennium Scholarship Fund (3) Training Support $4,361,600-pass; (4) $11 ,000,000-pass; (9) Manitoba Millennium Building Independence $3,351,600-pass; (5) Bursary Fund $5,900,000-pass. Less: Recoverable from Family Services and Housing ($600,000}-pass. 7.(h) Tuition Rebate Grants (1) University Students $7,000,000-pass; (2) Community 6.G) Canada-Manitoba Labour Market College Students $1,000,000-pass. Development Agreement ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5,324,500-pass; (2) Other Resolution 16.7: RESOLVED that there be Expenditures $580,500-pass; (3) Training granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Support $49,867,000-pass. $367,300,500 fo r Education and Training, Support fo r Post-Secondary Education, fo r the Resolution 16.6: RESOLVED that there be fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2001. granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $86,276,200 fo r Education and Training, Resolution agreed to. Training and Continuing Education, fo r the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March,20 01. 8. Capital Grants (a) School Divisions $25,234,900-pass; (b) Universities Resolution agreed to. $10,940,000-pass; (c) Community Colleges $2,245,800-pass; (d) Less: Recoverable from * (17:30) Capital Initiatives.

7. Support fo r Post-Secondary Education (a) Resolution 16.8: RESOLVED that there be Council on Post-Se condary Education (1) granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Salaries and Employee Benefits $633,300-pass; $38,420,500 for Education and Training, Capital (2) Other Expenditures $229, 900-pass. Grants, fo r the fiscal year ending the 3lst day of March, 200 I. 7.(b) University Operating Grants $231,16 9,000-pass. Resolution agreed to.

7 .(c) Post-Sec ondary Strategic Initiatives Item 16.9. Amortization of Capital Assets Fund $1,031 ,300-pass. $1,940,500-pass. 7.(d) Community Colleges Grants (1) Operating Grants $64, 156,900-pass; (2) Inter­ Mr. Caldwell: I just wanted to conclude with a Universities North $822,1 00-pass. couple of remarks myself. As I mentioned at the outset of today, I did quite appreciate the 7 .(e) College Expansion Initiative (1) Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith) and the Salaries and Employee Benefits $188,000-pass; Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) and the (2) Other Expenditures $56,000-pass; (3) discussion that we had over the last number of College Expansion Initiative Grants $4,856,000- weeks on the Department of Education and pass. Training's Estimates. 4488 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 25, 2000

As I mentioned, for both the Member fo r Mr. Chairperson: I find this motion to be in Fort Garry and myself, this is a new experience order. Debate may now proceed. Anyone and one I am sure neither one of us will soon speaking fo r or against? fo rget. We both appreciated, I think, speaking on my behalf and I expect as well for the Member Mr. (Minister of Highways and for Fort Garry, the experience of the Member for Government Services): I just want to put on Russell in this process. I think fo r me it was very record that we could have considered bringing a helpful to have a former minister of education motion of this kind in the last I 0 years when the take part. Conservatives were in power, but if we had gone on the basis of increase in public school funding I want to thank the two members opposite in the years when there was minus 2 percent, it and indeed the members of the Opposition and would have required the previous ministers of the Government who have taken part in the Education to pay money to the Government. Estimates process as it pertains to Education and With that, I will say that we will be voting Training. It has been quite an interesting process. against this, and, in fact, if anything, I think the Minister of Education should get a bonus fo r I know that my salary is coming up next on turningaround the public education system. the agenda here, and I know that the members will not deem that I have earned my salary. I can Mr. Chairperson: Is the Committee ready for a say that if I do not have their support this year, I question, or are there any other- will try to work harder to get their favour next year. Some Honourable Members: Question.

* (17:40) Mr. Chairperson: The matter before the Committee is the motion raised by the Member Mr. Chairperson: 16.9: RESOLVED that there for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith) that due to the be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding recognition by Manitobans that the Minister of $1,940,500 fo r Education and Training, Education and Training (Mr. Caldwell) has Amortization of Capital Assets, fo r the fiscal failed to live up to his election commitment of year ending the 3 I st day of March, 200 I. providing funding equivalent to the rate of Manitoba's economic growth, the Minister of Resolution agreed to. Education and Training's Salary budget line item I6.l.(a) be reduced the amount of $1.90 The last item to be considered for the equivalent to the true percentage increase in Estimates for the Department of Education and public school funding fo r the school year 2000- Training is item I.(a) Minister's Salary, in the 2001. sum of$27,300. Shall this item pass? Voice Vote Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Chairperson: All those in favour of the Mrs. Smith: I move, seconded by the Member motion, say yea. fo r Russell (Mr. Derkach), that, due to the recognition by Manitobans that the Minister of Some Hoaounble Members: Yea. Education and Training has fai led to live up to his election commitment of providing funding Mr. Chairperson: All those opposed, say nay. equivalent to the rate of Manitoba's economic growth, the Minister of Education's salary, Some Honourable Members: Nay. budget line I6.l .(a), be reduced to the amount of $1.90, equivalent to the true percentage increase in public school funding for school year 2000- Mr. Chairperson: In my opinion, the Nays have 2001. it. I declare the motion defeated.

Motion presented. I6.l.(a) Minister's Salary. July 25, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4489

Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, I want to take this percentage increase in public school funding fo r opportunity to challenge your ruling. the school year 2000-2001. [interjection] Yeas and Nays. This motion was defeated on a voice vote, Formal Vo te and subsequently two members requested that a fo rmal vote on the matter be taken. Mr. Chairperson: A recorded vote has been requested. Please call in the members. A COUNT-OUT VO TE was taken, the result being as fo llows: Yeas 17, Nays 26. All sections in Chamber fo r fo rmal vote. Mr. Chairperson: The motion is accordingly Mr. Chairperson: A motion was moved in the defeated. section of the Committee of Supply meeting in the Chamber by the Member for Fort Garry The hour being after6 p.m., committee rise. (Mrs. Smith). The motion reads that due to the recognition by Manitobans that the Minister of Call in the Speaker. Education and Training has failed to live up to his election commitment of providing funding IN SESSION equivalent to the rate of Manitoba's economic growth, the Minister of Education and Training's Mr. Speaker: The hour being after 6 p.m., this salary, by the line item 16.1.(a), be reduced to House is adjournedand stands adjourneduntil the amount of $1.90, equivalent to true 1 :30 p.m. tomorrow (Wednesday). LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, July 25,2000

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Workplace Safety and Health Act Derkach; Barrett 4409 Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Members' Statements

Standing Committee on Law Amendments Sixth Manitoba Amateur Golf Championship Report Mitchelson 4410 Martindale 4397 Manitoba Stampede and Exhibition Committee of Supply Allan 44 10 Santos 4398 Western Canadian Blind GolfChampionship Ministerial Statements Pitura 44 11

Health Capital Projects Last Post Fund Chomiak 4398 Rondeau 4411 Driedger 4400 Gerrard 4401 St. Cyril and Methodius Church Helwer 44 12 Oral Question Period ORDERS OF THE DAY Public Schools Act J. Smith; Caldwell 4402 Committee of Supply Labour Relations Act (Concurrent Sections) Mitchelson; Barrett 4403 Schuler; Barrett 4404 Conservation 44 13 Gilleshammer; Barrett 4404 Aboriginal and NorthernAffairs 44 17 Praznik; Barrett 4405 Status of Women 4418 Jim Penner; Barrett 4408 Civil Service Commission 4434 Sustainable Development Act Health 4435 Gerrard; Lathlin 4407 Education and Training 4466