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No. 100 No 100 ISSN 1180-2987 Legislative Assembly Assemblée législative of Ontario de l’Ontario First Session, 37th Parliament Première session, 37e législature Official Report Journal of Debates des débats (Hansard) (Hansard) Thursday 2 November 2000 Jeudi 2 novembre 2000 Speaker Président Honourable Gary Carr L’honorable Gary Carr Clerk Greffier Claude L. DesRosiers Claude L. DesRosiers Hansard on the Internet Le Journal des débats sur Internet Hansard and other documents of the Legislative Assembly L’adresse pour faire paraître sur votre ordinateur personnel can be on your personal computer within hours after each le Journal et d’autres documents de l’Assemblée législative sitting. 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Phone 416-326-5310, 326-5311 or toll-free téléphone : 416-326-5310, 326-5311, ou sans frais : 1-800-668-9938. 1-800-668-9938. Hansard Reporting and Interpretation Services Service du Journal des débats et d’interprétation 3330 Whitney Block, 99 Wellesley St W 3330 Édifice Whitney ; 99, rue Wellesley ouest Toronto ON M7A 1A2 Toronto ON M7A 1A2 Telephone 416-325-7400; fax 416-325-7430 Téléphone, 416-325-7400 ; télécopieur, 416-325-7430 Published by the Legislative Assembly of Ontario Publié par l’Assemblée législative de l’Ontario 5323 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE OF ONTARIO DE L’ONTARIO Thursday 2 November 2000 Jeudi 2 novembre 2000 The House met at 1000. offence is committed. It doesn’t apply to youths who are Prayers. under the age of 12 at the time of the offence. These children are dealt with under child welfare legislation. Most youths are dealt with in youth court. These are ORDERS OF THE DAY provincial courts with special expertise and facilities. In some circumstances a youth may be tried in adult court. The rules about transfer to adult court and sentencing YOUNG OFFENDERS are summarized in the following way. It’s these particular Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel-Wellington-Grey): points that give me great concern as to the fact that I move that, in the opinion of this House, the federal youths in these age brackets are committing these simply government continues to propose legislation to replace terrible crimes and they are committing them as adults. the Young Offenders Act that does not address the They are young adults and they’re out in a very short concerns of Ontarians and it should therefore make the period of time. I think that’s wrong and I don’t think the following amendments to Bill C-3, the Youth Criminal public is being protected. Justice Act: require 16- and 17-year-olds to be auto- Any youth over 14 who has been charged with an matically tried as adults when they commit adult crimes; indictable offence—that is, a more serious offence—may require mandatory jail time for youths convicted of be transferred to an adult court. In such cases it’s the offences involving weapons; require youths convicted of crown that must apply to have the case removed from serious crimes such as murder to serve adult sentences; youth court. All 16- and 17-year-olds charged with increase jail sentences. serious violent offences—first-degree and second-degree The Acting Speaker (Mr Tony Martin): Mr Tilson murder, attempted murder, manslaughter and aggravated moves notice of motion number 25. Mr Tilson. assault—are automatically transferred to adult court. Mr Tilson: This motion was first introduced into the However, the accused’s lawyer or the crown may apply House by me on October 16, which of course was before to have the case stay in the youth court. That seems to the federal election was called. It is now called, and Bill happen time and time again, where cases that clearly C-3, which was the federal Liberal amendment to the should be held in adult courts stay in the youth court. Young Offenders Act, has died, fortunately in my view, If the case is tried in the adult court, a youth faces the on the order paper. This motion has been brought same sentences as adults except the youths sentenced to forward by me simply out of frustration as to what the life in prison are eligible for parole earlier. The most time federal government is doing with respect to the Young a youth can spend in prison without being ineligible for Offenders Act. parole is 10 years, where an adult may be eligible for up The Young Offenders Act was first introduced in to 25 years. Why is that? I don’t understand that. The 1984, and it hasn’t worked. The law, of course, is a little darlings commit these awful crimes and they’re out federal law except that the provinces—the province of in very short periods of time. Ontario—are asked to administer it, to enforce it through Youths found guilty following a trial in a youth court the police and through the justice system. may be given a custodial or a non-custodial sentence. A I think that anyone has witnessed in their own custodial sentence may be either secure custody—that is, community horrific crimes that have been committed by a detention-correction facility—or open custody, a com- youths who have been tried under the Young Offenders munity group home. They’re just let out into the public. Act, and it clearly hasn’t worked. I submit that it puts the A non-custodial sentence includes absolute discharge, safety of the public at risk. conditional discharge, probation, fine or compensation That’s the purpose of the resolution, although it is for the victim, or community service. I don’t understand slightly redundant with Bill C-3 dying. Whoever is that either and most of the people that I speak to in my successful in the federal election, whether it be any party riding don’t understand it. that is running, I would hope their top priority would be The maximum custodial sentences the youth court to change the Young Offenders Act, specifically the may impose are: two years for an offence not punishable items that have been referred to in this resolution. by life under the Criminal Code; three years for offences The Young Offenders Act, as we all know, applies to punishable for life; seven years—four years secure cus- youths 12 to 17 years of age at the time the criminal tody and three years supervision for second-degree 5324 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO 2 NOVEMBER 2000 murder; and 10 years, which is six years of custody and she had already spent in prison following her arrest and four years of supervision for first-degree murder. trial. Since Ellard has neither admitted guilt nor ex- Justice Minister McLellan, with great fanfare, said she pressed remorse, the sentence provoked strong protest in was going to fix all that, and I think we in the province of British Columbia. Ontario who administer the law were quite pleased with You can go on and on listing these cases. We all have that. Well, that isn’t what happened. Bill C-3, in fact, heard them. They’ve occurred in our own ridings. The made these sentences even lighter. It made it even softer, Young Offenders Act is an absolute disgrace to this and the youths, who are very mature, just laughed at the country. We need protection of our citizens. federal government. I’m not laughing. I find it absolutely Mr Dave Levac (Brant): I’m very pleased to rise to tragic as to what they have done. talk to the resolution today. Am I in the federal House or Government officials—the Attorney General, the Soli- am I in the provincial House? It’s the provincial House, citor General, the corrections minister—asked to speak to right. the justice committee in Ottawa, the justice committee Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): There’s a comparable to what we have here, and they wouldn’t federal election. allow them to be heard. They wouldn’t allow those min- Mr Levac: Oh, there’s a federal election on, that’s isters from Ontario to come, yet they allowed Mr Rock to right. I think Stockwell is very proud of the wording come. He’s the minister, or was the minister, so I guess that’s being presented again. he can come. So he’s OK. Mr Speaker, let’s talk about what’s not happening in Interjections. this place. Under the Tories, there are fewer police Mr Tilson: I’ve only got a couple of minutes left. officers per capita than when they took power. There are Anyone can pick out newspaper clippings from their 500 fewer police officers in Toronto since 1995. Under ridings to talk about some of the unbelievable results that the Tories, the parole officer’s parole and probation have occurred as a result of the Young Offenders Act.