Friday Volume 565 5 July 2013 No. 30

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Friday 5 July 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1169 5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1170

that we set a time frame within which that must be done. House of Commons That is what the Bill does, and that is why I have introduced it. Friday 5 July 2013 Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): First, I The House met at half-past Nine o’clock congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. Secondly, I totally agree that—and I think he will probably explore this—it is important that this will PRAYERS reinforce the hand of our marvellous Prime Minister in negotiations with Europe, and then give the public a [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] say. The public deserve a say. 9.30 am James Wharton: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I beg to This is about giving the public a real say—a real choice move, That the House sit in private. between the best possible deal that we can get from the Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163), and European Union and, if the public so choose, leaving it, negatived. if that is what they want to do. That is what we on this side are offering the British public: I think that Members European Union (Referendum) Bill on the other side should consider their position very Second Reading carefully indeed, because at the next election the public will not forgive Members who do not trust them. 9.35 am James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): I beg to Several hon. Members rose— move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. It is an honour to introduce a Bill that has at its heart James Wharton: I want to make a little progress, then the heart of our democracy. Power should reside with I will give way. the people. In introducing the Bill, I speak for many in There is—and we can see it already—a debate to be the House, but I speak for millions more outside the had about whether our national interest is best served House. by being inside the European Union or by coming out. That debate, however, is not for today. Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): It is regrettable that the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) is not in the Chamber. Has Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend received representations from the leader the hon. Gentleman give way? of the Labour party, Len McCluskey, on what he thinks the position of the Labour party should be on this James Wharton: This is a debate about the Bill that is important issue? before—[Interruption.]

James Wharton: I thank my hon. Friend for that Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is not giving ingenious intervention. I have not yet heard from way at the moment. I think that that is clear. Mr McCluskey, but I am sure that when the Labour party has decided what its position is on giving the British people a say on our relationship with the European James Wharton: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Union it will let us know. In introducing the Bill, as I This is a debate about the Bill that I am bringing said, I speak for many in the Chamber and for many forward and which I am proud to bring forward. The millions outside. It was in 1975 that a Labour Government Community that we joined all those years ago was gave the British people a say on our membership of the primarily one of free trade, though aspects of it even then European Community. How things have changed: then— politics has moved on, and the European Union has moved on. Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): The first time I voted was in 1974. My son and daughter Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): In 1971, I voted have never had the opportunity to make that democratic against the then Common Market, and I voted for a decision. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is what referendum in 1975. Sadly, the country did not follow we should be doing today? That is why I sponsored my my advice, or we would not be doing what we are doing hon. Friend’s Bill. today. However, the Bill is deficient in one respect: it does not ask for a referendum until 2017. What we need is a referendum before the next election. Will the hon. James Wharton: Of course I agree with my hon. Gentleman give that guarantee? Friend. She was lucky if she had the opportunity to vote. I was, as one hon. Member whispered in my ear as James Wharton: For the first time, I find myself agreeing she made her contribution, but a twinkle in an eye at with at least part of the hon. Gentleman’s comments. I that time. I did not have the opportunity to vote. wish more people had listened to him in 1975, and I am sorry that they are not going to do so now. Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Does my hon. As I shall come on to explore, it is important that we Friend agree that any party that does not trust the secure the best possible deal from the European Union British people does not deserve the trust of the British and put a real choice to the British people. It is sensible people? 1171 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1172

James Wharton: My hon. Friend will be staggered, I large and complex Bill, it would be easier for him and am sure, to find that of course I agree with him. But his colleagues to slow its progress and wreck the chances what matters is not that I agree with him; it is that the of it getting through and delivering what the British people who are watching this debate, who care about people want. So although I hear what he says and I the issue, who want to have their say—the great British know he is deeply concerned about anything that will people—agree with him. They will make their views allow him at a later stage, should the Bill go forward very clear, come the next election. today, to slow it down and bog it down in parliamentary procedure, I hope he will resist the temptation and Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): Does my hon. allow us to get it through so that his constituents and Friend agree that one of the most important reasons for mine can vote whichever way they want and have their the Bill has already been mentioned—that a whole choice and their say on such a fundamental issue. generation has not had a chance to have a say? But there We have already discussed the fact that the European is a second reason, which is that the EU is a fundamentally Community is not the same as the European Union. different creature from the one on which we voted in What we joined has changed. Those who voted yes in 1975, and it is on that issue that the country must have a 1975 believed that they had bought a ticket to a clear say. and certain destination—to a free trade area that would benefit Britain’s economy without undermining our James Wharton: My hon. Friend is right. That is a sovereignty. They did not buy a ticket for a never-ending fundamental point. The European Community that the journey to ever-closer union, destination unknown. British people voted to be a part of in 1975 is not the same as the European Union of today. Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on this excellent Bill. Does Mr Marsden: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? he agree that we have heard from many businesses in the form of Business for Britain, who have said that businesses James Wharton: I will give way, then I want to make in this country also want to see the terms of our some progress. membership of the EU renegotiated? They also believe that finally giving the public a vote on this massive issue Mr Marsden: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. will create more stability than there is at present. He is making his points more usefully than some of his Whips have done so far—[Interruption] butisheaware James Wharton: My hon. Friend is right. There are of the fact—[Interruption.] Tory Members should calm hundreds of businesses that support the campaign for a down. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that 40% of UK say on our membership of the European Union. An exports go to the EU tariff-free, and that business important point about the Bill, which I should make leaders in this country have said that it would be dangerously clear to Members on all sides, is that I am not arguing destabilising if a referendum were to go ahead. Does he today that we should be in or that we should be out. I think—[Interruption.] am putting forward an argument that we should trust the British people to make that decision and have a say. Mr Speaker: Order. There needs to be rather more calm in the Chamber. Interventions need to be shorter. I Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): should point out that well over 40 colleagues want to I regret that I disagree with my hon. Friend. He is speak. I want all of them to do so. They have an interest wrong to say that the Opposition have not made up in minimising the noise level and maximising the progress. their mind. They are quite clear: they do not believe in a I call Mr Gordon Marsden—briefly. referendum, they do not believe in renegotiating in Europe to get a better deal for this country, and most of Mr Marsden: Does the hon. Member for Stockton all—they have made this absolutely clear—they do not South (James Wharton) think it is in the interests of this believe in giving the British people a say. country that we should have four years of uncertainty for business from his Bill? James Wharton: I am the eternal optimist. It may appear that the Opposition are united against the British James Wharton: The hon. Gentleman read his people in refusing them a chance to have their say, but I intervention very well, but the British people deserve a do not believe that is true. I believe that at least a say and they deserve to be given a real choice. They substantial number of them are split. They know that should be given a choice between the best possible the people need to have a say on this important issue relationship with the European Union that we can offer, and even though their leader has chosen not to be here and leaving. and lead them today, I hope he will summon up the strength in the future to take a firm position and will Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): back the Bill. The hon. Gentleman has done a great job in coming up with this idea for a Bill, but has he had an opportunity Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): When we joined to talk to representatives from our territory of Gibraltar the European communion—[Laughter]—the European about the impact on them and whether he plans to give Community, it certainly was that. We thought we were them a say in the referendum? joining a union that would increase economic prosperity and give even greater political stability. We cannot now James Wharton: The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting say that to new members, given the economic problems point. Despite being a young and new MP, as I am, he within the European Community. As things are going knows very well that parliamentary procedure is one of on in not far distant countries, after their next elections the greatest challenges that the Bill will face. Were it a there will probably be serious fascist representation in 1173 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1174

France, in Spain and in Italy. Is it not just in the Mr Speaker: Order. Appealing though it is to look at interests of this country for the Prime Minister seriously the back of the hon. Gentleman’s suit, it would be quite to renegotiate, but in the interests of the whole of nice to see his face. Europe? Sir Tony Baldry: I apologise, Mr Speaker. There are James Wharton: The right hon. Gentleman is right. many of us who campaigned for yes to Britain in the We are talking about a European Union that is changing 1975 referendum campaign, but to paraphrase Goethe, before our eyes. No one knows where it will be in a few that which thy forefathers bequeath thee, one must earn years. It is the right approach that rather than rush anew if one wants to possess it. There comes a point headlong now to make a decision, we should negotiate where one has to demonstrate the wholehearted consent to get the right deal and to understand what future of the British people to our membership of the European membership of the European Union would mean. Whatever Union if it is to be valid for us and for them and, the result of that process and whatever our understanding importantly, for the whole of the European Community. might be, ultimately it must be put to the British people so that they can choose whether to renew their consent James Wharton: We perhaps come at this from a to membership or to withdraw it. That is what we must different angle, but I think we reach the same conclusion, do and why we are here today. and it is welcome that we do so.

Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): I congratulate Several hon. Members rose— my hon. Friend on securing the debate today. Neither he nor I was alive at the time of the last referendum on James Wharton: I want to make a little more progress, the EU, and we are now sitting here in the House as if I may. MPs. Does he agree that it is high time that our generation had a say on our membership of the European Union? We know that the European Union has changed from the European Community that was voted on in 1975. We know that generations did not get a choice. But James Wharton: My hon. Friend is right. We have what of the question of having a referendum itself? generations of people who have not had a say and we This was once seen to be alien to the British political have generations of people who, when they had their system. It was not what we did. Well, I would contend say, voted for something which is not what exists today. that we live in the age of the referendum. We have had Taken together, the changes that we have seen to the referendums on whether Scotland should have its Parliament European Union and the length of time since the British and whether Wales should have its Assembly, and on people gave their consent in that original vote are the alternative vote. We had a referendum on whether significant. They make the case for a fresh referendum we should have a regional assembly for the north-east of an obvious one and one that should be supported. The England, and my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich times have changed, the European Union has changed, and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) came up to the north-east and public sentiment has changed. It is time we had a and campaigned in that referendum. He campaigned referendum, it is time we gave people a choice, and that against and he was remarkably successful. I would like is why we are here. to give him the chance to campaign in a referendum again, not on an issue of regional government, but on Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) one of national Government that affects us all. (LD): I voted enthusiastically yes in the ’70s and I cannot imagine any circumstance in which I would not Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): On the subject vote yes in any future referendum. Why do we need this of consistency within the coalition that the hon. Gentleman Bill when we have already legislated for a referendum just mentioned, we both voted for the European Union anyway, and when I hope the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, Act 2011 only two years ago. I am still happy with it. Is like mine, believe that the priorities are jobs and growth he? and investment, not putting the whole of the European investment links at risk for the next few years? James Wharton: Yes, I am. James Wharton: It never ceases to amaze me—I hope It is important when we look at referendums to my colleagues on the Government Benches will allow understand what they mean. They go to the heart of me this indulgence—how the Liberal Democrats change what democracy is about. They go to the heart of giving their position as the wind blows. On this important the British people their say on fundamental matters of matter Liberal Democrat MPs campaigned at the last importance. election to offer the British people a referendum. They have now changed their mind because it looks a real Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I am grateful to my prospect. I hope that they may change their mind again hon. Friend for giving way and for his excellent Bill. and agree with what some of us are trying to achieve. Which does he think the British public will trust—the last Government who refused to give us a referendum Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Following on from on the Lisbon treaty, or this Government who have the comments of the right hon. Member for Bermondsey vetoed an EU treaty, cut the EU budget, passed legislation and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), it must be made on EU sovereignty and given us an in/out referendum? clear that the Bill is not put forward just by those who are inherently Eurosceptic. There are many of us who James Wharton: My hon. Friend makes an important campaigned vigorously in the 1975 referendum for our and valid observation. It appears that the Leader of the entry into the European— Opposition does not even trust his own party, because 1175 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1176

[James Wharton] those who would want to fight to come out. I do wonder, though, at a democratically elected Member of Parliament he cannot lead them one way or the other on this who would seek to deny the British people that choice. important matter, but he has ordered them to run away That is the fundamental area of disagreement, and from the debate. beyond that I am sure we can reach across parties to find agreement and deliver a Bill that is so important Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): I want to point out that and long overdue. it is important to recognise that the majority of Labour voters in the country want to see a referendum. Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on this excellent Bill. I have just learned James Wharton: The hon. Lady is of course right. We that the leader of the Labour party has apparently know that the majority of people in this country want a cancelled an engagement today and he is not in the referendum. I would extend to her on this issue the House. Does my hon. Friend think that he is sitting at hand of cross-party co-operation and friendship, and to home Buddha-like, contemplating whether to give the any of her colleagues who would like to join in what we British people a say? are trying to do to deliver that, not just for Labour voters, not just for Conservative voters, but for everyone, James Wharton: The Buddha-like qualities of the whether they believe that we should be in European Leader of the Opposition are well-known of late. However, Union or should leave it. I would not choose to speculate on what he is doing. It may be something to do with the unions, it may be Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): On the subject something to do with the television; it certainly is not of cross-party activities, I was keen to follow the example something to do with leading his party in the right of Margaret Thatcher in 1975 and vote enthusiastically direction. for Europe, and I would do so again. However, is the hon. Gentleman aware that the late Baroness Thatcher John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): A majority of my happily quoted Clement Attlee’s comment that referendums constituents appear to agree with me rather than with are devices of demagogues and dictators. the Prime Minister that the problem with Europe is that there is too much labour market flexibility, and that James Wharton: I had forgotten the hon. Gentleman’s people are coming in and taking jobs here. Does the record of having voted against every referendum brought hon. Gentleman agree with me and my constituents forward by the previous Government. It had slipped my that in the renegotiations we need to remove this labour mind that he had such a distinguished and principled market flexibility in Europe, or does he agree with the position on this matter. However, we must also recognise Prime Minister that what is needed in renegotiation is that things change, which is why in my earlier comments, more free flow of labour? not long into my speech today, I said that we are in the age of the referendum. We have had so many referendums James Wharton: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman on so many things. It would seem farcical then to try to sees the value in a renegotiation and in getting a new deny the referendum on such an important thing that deal. We may disagree on what that deal should look matters to so many people. like, but his support is much appreciated, and I hope that he will back the Bill so that he can campaign for it Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Thanks when we get it. to that well known source of information Guido Fawkes we have here the Labour party briefing, which says: Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) “Labour does not support this Bill...This is a Conservative (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing forward Party Bill that sets out the Tory Party’s position—which we are the Bill. Does he agree that at its heart lies the issue of opposed to.” trust? That is what this is about. The parties that trust the British people will support this, and the parties that James Wharton: I thank my hon. Friend. He has do not trust the British people will not support it. made clearer the position of the Labour party than the Leader of the Opposition has yet managed to do. There James Wharton: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. may be a vacancy there for him soon if he were to As I have said, I do not mind whether people want to choose to apply for it. campaign to be in or out. I do not seek to influence in this debate or in this Bill how the British people might Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): It may help my vote. I believe that we must give them a say. hon. Friend, who is doing a wonderful job here, if I could just refer to something that was put out by the Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) Liberal Democrats at the last election, which said that (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that Europe is in a the reason for giving a real referendum was that it was very volatile state at the moment? The eurozone is in an over 30 years since the British people last voted, and even more volatile state. Between now and 2017 there although they wanted to campaign to stay in, they will be vigorous negotiations to try to repatriate powers firmly believed that length of time justified having the that are best used in our own country. By 2017 the referendum. public will be able to see whether those negotiations have been successful and to make an informed decision. James Wharton: I thank my hon. Friend. That leads me neatly on to my next point, which is that I have no James Wharton: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. objection in a referendum to those who would want to That takes us to one of the key points about the Bill: it campaign to stay in, just as I could have no objection to makes provision for a referendum by the end of 2017. 1177 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1178

I believe that it is right that we should look to secure am grateful to the Prime Minister and the Conservative that better deal, that we should go to Europe and party leadership for getting full square behind what we negotiate a better settlement that is more suited to the are trying to do. I think that this is something that British interest. I believe that is possible. There are unites the nation in agreement: we trust the British those who say that it cannot be done, but I believe that people and want to give them a voice. in reality the Germans will want to continue selling us cars and the French will want to continue selling us Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I thank the wine, just as much as we will want to continue trading hon. Gentleman, who is being very generous in giving with them. I think that a deal can be achieved and that way. On the matters of substance referred to by the hon. it could be a great improvement. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), will he make clear his position on whether the EU has gone too Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I note far in protecting the employment rights of workers in that the hon. Gentleman did not answer my hon. Friend his constituency and mine? the Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner). Why can we not have a referendum next year, and why is the Prime James Wharton: I believe that more of what is done by Minister not leading this debate? the EU should be done by this Parliament and by the British people. It should be for the British people to decide James Wharton: As I was explaining, I believe that we what they want to be legislated on, who they want to need to put a real choice before the British people: support and who they want their Government to be. either the best possible Europe we can get or coming For many years, and under different parties, our out, if that is what they choose. I believe that that can be leaders have disappeared into Europe, only to return to delivered, that we can return powers, renegotiate and this House to present their failures or successes, and get a better deal, but I also think that it would be to whatever happens is invariably presented as a success. cheat the British people to deprive them of the opportunity This House has had its say on those measures, but the to benefit from that better deal. This is about serious British people have not been given a say in over a politics and delivering a real choice, not just playing generation. I think that it is time they were given a say. I party political games, as some Members seem keen want a British Prime Minister who goes to Europe to to do. negotiate not simply in order to come back to this House and present what they have done, but to present Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): I am grateful to what they have done for the British people so that they my hon. Friend for bringing forward the Bill. He talks can finally decide. about serious politics. Does he agree that Members on the Opposition Benches, and indeed some sitting just Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I thank the below us, say one thing in this Chamber and another in hon. Gentleman for giving way and support his Bill—[HON. their constituencies, demonstrating that they are not MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] Would he like to explain to the serious politicians, that they are not serious about a workers of Greece and Spain about workers’ rights in Bill, and that it is only us who will ensure that this those countries? happens? James Wharton: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I suspect James Wharton: Again, I will endeavour to be generous that the workers of Greece and Spain would welcome a in my interpretation, excluding our Liberal Democrat referendum, just as the workers in the UK would, and I colleagues, who often say one thing in one place and hope that they might get one. another somewhere else. Opposition Members are not consistent within their party, but I am sure that they are Several hon. Members rose— consistent as individuals. The truth is that the Labour party is split down the middle on this issue, because it James Wharton: I will give way to my hon. Friend the knows that the British people want and deserve a say, Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), but then I must but its leader is too weak to lead and refuses to offer it make some progress, as I want to draw to a conclusion. direction. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I absolutely support Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Does my my hon. Friend, who is doing a massive service not only hon. Friend share my shock at the way the Bill has been to Parliament, but to the country as a whole. May I mocked by Opposition Members—there are one or two suggest one improvement to the Bill that I think would honourable exceptions—the people who are supposed find favour with the Prime Minister? It relates to a to represent the very communities, such as mine in question I asked him recently. If the British people Goole, that have been most affected by uncontrolled voted in a referendum to come out of the European Union, EU immigration and by our membership of the EU? It is it my hon. Friend’s intention that that should be that, is those people who want a say, and it is those people so we would not have the usual European Union tactic whom Opposition Members are mocking today. of having yet more referendums until they get the result they want? Perhaps it would be better to make it clear in James Wharton: My hon. Friend makes the important the Bill that if the British people voted to come out of point—the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) the European Union, that would be that. alluded to this earlier—that as many Labour voters want the Bill to succeed as do Conservative voters. This James Wharton: I welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention matters across the political divide, which is why I welcome and have no doubt at all that whoever is Prime Minister those hon. Members, from whatever party, who have at the time—I am confident that it will be the current said that they support what we are trying to do, and I Prime Minister—would be unable to defy a vote of the 1179 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1180

[James Wharton] Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): There seems to be a tendency for trust in the people to British people in a free and fair election with a proper wane when a party gets into government. Given that a debate. If the British people voted to come out, I am private Member’s Bill is a rather precocious creature sure that that would happen. I am conscious, however—this that could easily be killed, if this is so important and if point was made earlier—that this is a private Member’s the Conservative party trusts the people, why can we Bill and so has limited time. Any amendments or changes, not have that trust expressed before 2015, rather than or anything that lengthens our considerations, will give the waiting until 2017? minority of Members who wish to wreck it, not by force of democratic argument, but by misuse of parliamentary James Wharton: Of course, one of the challenges the procedure, too much opportunity to do so. I would Bill faces—and it is the reason it is a private Member’s therefore resist further amendments, but I understand Bill—and the reality of the parliamentary dynamic that and sympathise with my hon. Friend’s important comment. the hon. Lady observes exists, is that the Government include not just Conservative Members, but Liberal Several hon. Members rose— Democrats, who have gone back on their manifesto pledge, do not want to support it and, sadly, despite my James Wharton: I will give way to my hon. Friend the best efforts to persuade them, will not yet give it Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois), but then I Government time. really must make progress. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): I commend my Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): Does my hon. hon. Friend for putting this Bill forward; he is doing our Friend agree that what irks the people of this nation nation a great service. Does he agree that we should more than anything else is the democratic deficit that have listened to Mrs Thatcher on this subject years ago exists in the EU, and that deficit has grown time after and rejected political union? time as a result of the treaties that Labour Members signed up to? His Bill will remedy that democratic James Wharton: My hon. Friend has a consistent and deficit by giving the British people trust? principled track record on this matter that I am sure this House recognises and appreciates. He makes a James Wharton: My hon. Friend makes an important helpful contribution that reminds us of the historical point. All of us in this place know that the great British reality within which we are operating. Over the years, public’s level of trust in politicians of all parties is not at many Members have warned us about what was happening its highest level. We need to restore that trust by engaging in the European Union, yet those warnings have not with them and giving them that choice— always been heeded. Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): On a point This Bill is about making good the central promise of of order, Mr Speaker. our democracy: that we are the servants of the people and not their masters. We want to give the people a Mr Speaker: I hope that it is a point of order, rather voice. I was born in Stockton-on-Tees, a town that I am than a point of frustration. now proud to represent in this place. I am also proud to be presenting this Bill, which will give not just the Mike Gapes: It is. In answer to an earlier intervention, people of Stockton but the people of the United the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) Kingdom—[Interruption.] said that Members of this House who propose amendments to the Bill would be misusing parliamentary procedure; Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Wharton is developing his he said that to do so would be a “misuse.” I seek argument, and I think it is very clear to the hon. clarification, Mr Speaker: would it not be perfectly in Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) that he is not order for any Member of this House to propose many currently giving way. amendments to the Bill if it gets a Second Reading? James Wharton: I am proud to represent the people Mr Speaker: The situation the hon. Gentleman describes of Stockton in this matter, but also the people of this in his point of order will arise if the Bill gets a Second country as a whole. It is about time we gave those Reading. I heard what the hon. Member for Stockton millions of British people who want a say the chance to South (James Wharton) said and think, if I may say do so—from Stockton and beyond. This Bill would so—and I may—that it is a point of debate. The hon. legislate for that and give them confidence that they will Gentleman was making a point of debate to which get their say and that it will be at the right time and in others can respond if they wish. the right way. We have a chance to give the British people a voice through this Bill, and I commend it to James Wharton: Many hon. Members in this place the House. have made the case and raised their concerns about our relationship with the European Union over many years. 10.11 am I am pleased to stand here today and speak for them, for those who have dedicated countless hours to pursuing Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire the cause of democracy in holding the European Union South) (Lab): Let me begin by congratulating the hon. and our relationship with it to account. However, I am Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) on achieving bringing forward this private Member’s Bill not just for first place in the ballot and on introducing this Bill. me, the Conservative party and my colleagues: I am Any judgment about an in/out referendum on the bringing it forward for the people as a whole. I therefore UK’s membership of the European Union has to be hope that we can drive it forward and make it a success. based on what is in the national interest. We do not 1181 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1182 believe that an in/out referendum in 2017, as anticipated what is proposed in this Bill. There is a fundamental in the hon. Gentleman’s Bill, is in the national interest. difference because a majority was secured in the Scottish The Bill reflects an arbitrary date unrelated to the likely Parliament. timetable of major treaty change, it represents an unrealistic and uncertain negotiating strategy, and it is brought Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): Will forward by a party divided between those seeking consent the right hon. Gentleman give this House an absolute and those seeking exit. assurance on behalf of the Labour party that it will not change its mind about opposing a referendum for the Andrew Percy rose— British people before the next election?

Mr Alexander: I will give way in a moment or two, Mr Alexander: We have maintained our position that but let me make a little progress. any judgment in relation to an in/out referendum has to Only this week, the hon. Member for Stockton South be based on the national interest. Our judgment is that faced criticism from none other than one of his own the national interest is not served by this Bill, and that is Conservative councillors, who called it why we do not support it. If there is a leader of a political “a cynical, pointless stunt, nothing more”. party who has changed his position on a referendum, I think I am looking at him right now. The Conservative councillor for Yarm and Kirklevington went on to say: Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con) rose— “I think it should have been something to get the economy moving or to speed up help to get women into work.” Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con) rose— I could not have put it better myself. Mr Alexander: I am keen to make a little progress, Mrs Main: Surely the right hon. Gentleman and his and then I will happily take further interventions. party must accept some responsibility for this uncertainty. In 2012 they cheated the British public with a tidying-up I just mentioned the Prime Minister, so let us remember exercise on the Lisbon treaty, and now, again, there has how far he has travelled. This is what he said at the been a broken contract with the British public. This Bill Conservative party conference when he became leader: is a full contract with the British public that they have “For too long, we were having a different conversation. Instead confidence in. I hope that he would at least go back and of talking about the things that most people care about, we talked establish a bit of trust with the public on this matter. about what we cared about most. While parents worried about childcare, getting the kids to school, balancing work and family life—we were banging on about Europe.” Mr Alexander: I sense that the hon. Lady is so used to attacking the Government of 2012 that she has forgotten Three years into government, this is a Conservative it was a Conservative Government. party still banging on about Europe—a party talking to itself and not to the country. Several hon. Members rose— Sir Gerald Howarth: Can the right hon. Gentleman Mr Alexander: Let me keep going and make a little give the House an indication of what a Labour Government progress. would do, were this country to have the misfortune of him and his colleagues assuming power in 2015, if this Let us get to the nub of the argument advanced by Bill becomes law, which the British people want, and the hon. Member for Stockton South about why this many of his hon. Friends want, as well as us? Will he Bill is before the House today. The Bill is not being undertake that they will not seek to repeal legislation debated because Conservative Back Benchers trust the passed today? public; it is being debated because Conservative Back Benchers do not trust the Prime Minister. That is the Mr Alexander: Many people who have advocated the reality. position taken in this Bill have argued in the past that, given the sovereignty of Westminster, no Parliament Andrew Percy: Can the shadow Foreign Secretary can bind its successor. There are a number of stages of explain why he believes that a Scottish independence scrutiny that the Bill needs to go through, so it is a little referendum is not in the national interest but voted for presumptuous to presume that it will reach the statute the Bill to allow it to happen, yet believes that this Bill is book today. not in the national interest and will not vote for it to become law? Where is the consistency there? He is saying that it is good enough for the people of Scotland Several hon. Members rose— to have a referendum but not good enough for the rest of the country. Mr Alexander: Let me try to make a little progress. For many years, Conservatives have argued for national Mr Alexander: Let me try to help the hon. Gentleman Parliaments to have a greater say in European affairs, with his understanding of devolution and, indeed, yet since 1997 all previous Bills that legislated for democracy. The last time I checked, there was an election referendums that actually took place have had their in Scotland in 2010 that resulted in the Scottish National stages debated on the Floor of the House, including a party, which had committed to a referendum in its Committee of the whole House. Instead of that, with manifesto, securing a majority in the Scottish Parliament. this private Member’s Bill the Conservatives are apparently By contrast, not one of the principal political parties that planning to try to cut short the time that we have to stood at the last general election in the United Kingdom debate it. It seems that the Government are willing to let and secured representation in this House advanced it progress without going through these vital stages. 1183 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1184

[Mr Douglas Alexander] and understands that the gap between what his Back Benchers want and what Europe could possibly That should be a matter of regret for all Members who countenance remains achingly wide. continually assert the importance and sovereignty of Let me return to the Foreign Secretary, who back in Westminster. November went on to say about a referendum: Robert Halfon: The right hon. Gentleman says that “It would not help anyone looking for a job. It would not help any business trying to expand. It would mean that for a time, we, he does not want a referendum in 2017. When does he the leading advocates of removing barriers to trade in Europe and want a referendum? Why did his party support a referendum the rest of the world, would lack the authority to do so.” on a monkey in Hartlepool but will not support a That last point seemed to pass the Prime Minister by referendum for the British people on the European Union? when he made his point in County Fermanagh 10 days Mr Alexander: If there is a significant transfer of ago. The Foreign Secretary went on to say: sovereignty from Britain to Brussels, there will be a “It would mean that as we advocate closer trading links referendum; that is the law of the land. It is not a matter between the EU and the countries of north Africa as they emerge from their revolutions, helping to solidify tremendous potential of opposition to referendums in principle. advances in human freedom and prosperity, we would stand back from that. That is not the right way to respond to this dramatic Several hon. Members rose— year of uncertainty and change.”—[Official Report, 24 October 2011; Vol. 534, c. 55.] Mr Alexander: I had better try to make a little progress. No doubt when the Foreign Secretary gets to his feet Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I am grateful in a few moments’ time he will make a characteristically to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. In answer to witty and engaging speech; there is certainly material my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), available to him. However, we all know that he has been he actually clarified Labour’s position a little. If I heard drawn into supporting this Bill out of weakness, not him correctly, he said that his view was that if there was strength. In November 2011, he argued that committing a substantial change in the relationship, the law provided then to an in/out referendum would put the economy at for a referendum. Will he therefore confirm that if there risk, undermine jobs and growth, and compromise vital were a Labour Government and there were no substantial British interests. This is what he said on that occasion— change to the relationship, there would not be a referendum on our membership of the European Union? Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con) rose— Mr Alexander: I was simply making the straightforward Nadhim Zahawi rose— point that, given the terms of the sovereignty clause, there is no objection in principle to referendums, because Mr Alexander: I think it is important that hon. Gentlemen we are mandated—indeed, it is the law of the land—in listen so that they understand where their Front Benchers such a way that if there is a transfer of sovereignty a were then and so that we might understand where they referendum will take place. have ended up. When the Foreign Secretary makes his speech, will he In November 2011, the Foreign Secretary said: provide a view on the following quotation? We heard “a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, especially at from his Department back in November 2011, in answer this time of profound economic uncertainty, is not the answer.” to a parliamentary question I posed him: At that time, he also said at the Dispatch Box: “European markets account for half of the UK’s overall trade “The deficits of recent years, and the slowness of growth in all and foreign investments and as a result, around 3.5 million jobs in western economies, make this a difficult and uncertain time for the UK are linked to the export of goods and services to the many individuals and firms. The eurozone is clearly in crisis, and EU.”—[Official Report, 12 July 2011; Vol. 531, c. 256W.] to pile on that uncertainty the further uncertainty of a referendum on leaving the European Union, when half the foreign direct When I asked the Foreign Office the same question last investment into Britain comes from the rest of the European week, it decided to pass it to the Treasury—I see that Union, and half our exports go out to the rest of the European the Chancellor has left his place on the Front Bench—which Union, would not be a responsible action for Her Majesty’s came back with the intriguing reply that the Government Government to take.” have made no estimate. Well, there we are—that’s leadership for you. Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Further to that, does my right hon. Friend agree that, although many What is to be made of that answer? The Government Conservative Back Benchers say they support the Prime have gone from such a positive estimate just 11 months Minister, in reality they do not want renegotiation; they ago to being unable to give any estimate of the economic want us to get out? benefits of Europe today. One would almost think that they are frightened of facts, because facts are intolerable Mr Alexander: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. to their own Back Benchers. The difficulty for the Prime Minister was that his attempt Incidentally, I have a further point for the Foreign to secure brittle unity in his January speech was achieved Secretary to consider when he makes his speech. Do he only through the device of obscurity. We have heard it and the Prime Minister agree with their Cabinet colleague again today in relation to employment and social rights. the Secretary of State for Education, who is also not in We have all read the Beecroft report and know that the his place on the Front Bench but who said the following— real agenda is to bring powers home to take rights away, this is a direct quote—about our membership of the but the Prime Minister could not even find it in himself European Union: to talk about unemployment and social rights in his “Life outside would be perfectly tolerable, we could contemplate speech at the end of January. The fact is that he knows it, there would be certain advantages.” 1185 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1186

Is that the view of the Government? Perhaps that is the Mr Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab): Does my answer being passed to the Foreign Secretary. right hon. Friend agree that the Prime Minister and the Then, as now, our judgment is that the priority must Foreign Secretary seem to be prepared to put at risk the be to deliver stability, jobs and growth for the British jobs and investment that Europe brings just to satisfy economy. In fact, the irony is that even the Bill’s proposer the obsessions of their Back Benchers? has himself acknowledged that Parliament should be focusing on more important things. In a press conference Mr Alexander: None of us doubts that Europe needs on 15 May in Westminster, he said: substantive change or that there needs to be reform; the “I think the reality is that we need to be seen to be talking tragedy for the United Kingdom is that the intransigence about the things that matter to people in places like Stockton of the Conservative Back Benchers behind the Prime South that I represent on Teesside, which is the cost of living, Minister means that he cannot address those needs in a immigration, jobs, the economy, things that we need to get right sensible, straightforward manner. He did not wake up to improve people’s lives.” in January with a sudden democratic impulse that had somehow eluded him in the preceding years. He is being Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I thank driven by weakness, not strength. This is about external my right hon. Friend for giving way. There has been a electoral threats and internal leadership threats. This is lot of talk this morning about the national interest. I not about trusting the people; it is about these Back have been listening to the director general of the CBI, Benchers not trusting the Prime Minister. who has said that the most important thing in the British national interest is to bang the drum for Britain’s Sir Gerald Howarth: Will the right hon. Gentleman interests in Europe. Does my right hon. Friend think it give way? would be easier to hear that drum if we were in the room fighting for British interests or if we ran away Mr Alexander: I will not give way, because I want to after shutting the door, as some in the Government make progress. The Conservative approach to Europe seem to want to do? undermines the prospects for growth, because, as my hon. Friend has just made clear, it creates unnecessary Mr Alexander: I find myself in agreement with my uncertainty that could undermine investment, because hon. Friend. It is not simply the head of the CBI who is it risks Britain sleepwalking to the exit of the European saying that. Some of the most distinguished leaders of Union precisely when the economic benefits of membership British business, including Richard Branson, WPP and are most needed, given the stagnating economy. At least a range of others, wrote to the Financial Times in January we have the courage to acknowledge that membership in response to the Prime Minister’s speech. They made of the European Union is vital to the economy of the very clear their deep concern about the reality of the United Kingdom, not least because of the benefits of negotiating strategy, which the Prime Minister cannot free trade and integration in the world’s largest trading even be explicit about with his own Back Benchers, bloc. because if he is explicit on this side of the channel it is deemed unacceptable on the other side of the channel. Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is a Huw Irranca-Davies: My right hon. Friend has paid reasonable fellow, but what he does not seem to grasp is tribute to the impeccable oratorical skills of the Foreign the fact that this debate—this issue—is about the principle Secretary and I agree with him on that, but is he looking of a referendum, not the relative merits of in or out. He forward, as I am, to hearing him argue his way out of also seems to fail to understand that this is about trust the impeccable logic he has displayed in the past—his between politicians in general and the British electorate, quotations apply as much today as they did back then—not given that too many promises have been broken in the least when 3.5 million jobs in the UK are dependent on past, including Labour’s promise of a referendum when our membership of the EU? I look forward to hearing it came to the EU constitution and Lisbon. Why will the the Foreign Secretary deploy his impeccable rhetorical Labour party not trust the people on this issue? skills to explain how black is now white.

Mr Alexander: I think we are all looking forward to Mr Alexander: Why does the Conservative party not that, but let us stick to the theme of the economy. Since trust the Conservative Prime Minister? When will it November 2011, when the Foreign Office was at least release the Downing Street One? That is the question. willing to answer my question about the economic He is sitting on the Front Bench like a hostage, not a benefits—it now seems to have lost its nerve in the face leader. of Tory intransigence—the number of people claiming Let me address the hon. Gentleman’s point. He was jobseeker’s allowance for two years has increased by a generous enough to describe me as a reasonable fellow staggering 173%. In the past six months alone, there has and I return the compliment. As a reasonable fellow, he been zero growth in the economy. Since the Chancellor’s will be keen to defend and protect the jobs of his many first spending review of 2010, the UK economy has constituents who work at places like Ford’s Dunton grown by just 1%, compared with the 6% forecast at the technical centre. I am sure that he is concerned for those time and the growth of nearly 3% in Germany and jobs. Perhaps when he has the opportunity to speak he nearly 5% in the United States. Today almost 1 million will explain to them why the European chief executive young people are unable to find work and long-term of Ford has said: unemployment is up by more than 100,000 since the last “All countries should have their sovereignty, but don’t discuss general election. This is the slowest economic recovery leaving a trading partner where 50pc of your exports go… That in the United Kingdom for more than 100 years. That is would be devastating for the UK economy.” the reality of what people are talking about in constituencies I am sure that the hon. Gentleman’s constituents will be the length and breadth of the country. very interested in that. 1187 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1188

Several hon. Members rose— call from Unite or from divine inspiration through the ether. There is no other way in which he is able to decide Mr Alexander: I am keen to make a little progress. on the Bill. I believe that the case for membership of the European Union is clear and, as I have acknowledged, that the Mr Steve Reed: Will the right hon. Gentleman give case for change is clear. That is why reform and not exit way? is the right road for the UK. Mr Hague: I will make a bit of progress before giving Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): Will way. the right hon. Gentleman give way? My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) is to be applauded for introducing the Mr Alexander: I am keen to make a little progress. I Bill and for his excellent speech. Huge numbers of have been generous in taking interventions. people across the country, as well as in this House, will In the face of such a severe economic crisis, Europe thank him for it. The matter before us is about Europe’s needs to be better focused on promoting growth across future, our country’s place in it and, above all, democracy. the continent. That is the priority for national Governments It is about giving the people of this country the decisive and that should be reflected at a European level. There say that is their right. is of course pressing work to be done, on which I hope there is cross-party agreement, such as the completion Mr Reed rose— of the single market and its extension into digital, energy and finance. The rescue of the currency, protections Mr Hague: I will give way in a moment. for the single market and the revival of the prospects for At a time of profound change in Europe, this Bill growth should be Europe’s priorities for change. would give the British people the power to decide one of On so many issues that matter—jobs, growth, trade the greatest questions facing Britain: whether we should and security in central Europe and the middle east—the be in the EU or out of it. EU remains an indispensable force multiplier for all its members. That includes the United Kingdom. Our In deference to my hon. Friends in the Liberal Democrat membership gives us access to the single market, a party, I must say that I am not speaking for the whole stronger voice on international trade and amplified coalition. As will be obvious to the House, I am speaking influence on international diplomacy. That is why, when on behalf of the Conservative party. today’s spectacle of a Tory party talking to itself is long Two years ago, we passed the European Union Act 2011 forgotten, we will continue to make the case for Britain’s to ensure that no Government could agree to transfer place in Europe and for change in Europe. areas of power from Britain to the EU without a referendum. It met complete indecision from the Opposition, who resolutely and bravely abstained. However, 10.31 am support for it is now their official policy. Two years The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth later, they have adopted our policy and we are pleased Affairs (Mr William Hague): It is kind of Opposition that they have done so. Today, with this Bill, we discover Members to look forward to my speech. After the a similar wave of indecision on the Opposition Benches speech of the shadow Foreign Secretary, that is not and we look forward to their adopting this policy in due altogether surprising. Rarely in this House—[HON. course. Perhaps the hon. Member for Croydon North MEMBERS: “More!”] Rarely in this House has a speech (Mr Reed) will clarify that point. accusing others of causing uncertainty been so totally shrouded in uncertainty itself. Mr Reed: The right hon. Gentleman tells us that he is After the right hon. Gentleman’s speech, he has still against uncertainty and indecision. Perhaps he will tell not said whether the Opposition will vote for or against us how he would vote in an in/out referendum. or abstain on Second Reading. He has managed to speak for half an hour without even saying what their Mr Hague: Opposition Members will have to do position is on the Second Reading of the Bill—a feat better than that. The policy of the Government, which almost unknown in this House and in all the Second was set out in detail in the speech made by my right Reading debates that I have attended in the past 24 years. hon. Friend the Prime Minister, is to achieve a reformed The parliamentary Labour party briefing, of which I European Union and a better settlement with it. We do have helpfully obtained a copy—they are left all over not agree with the status quo and we want to be able to the building in surprising places—states: campaign for Britain to stay in a reformed European Union. “This is a Conservative Party Bill…which we are opposed to.” If the Opposition are opposed to it, presumably they Philip Davies: For the avoidance of doubt, I would are going to vote against it. The shadow Foreign Secretary vote to leave the European Union. The Foreign Secretary is not able to answer that question. Not only does he said that he was not speaking for both parts of the not know what his policy is; he does not even know coalition. Is he sure about that? Surely he recalls how, in whether he is going to vote against something that he is the last Parliament, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, opposed to. the Deputy Prime Minister, marched his MPs out of Opposition Members are asking when the Prime this Chamber when they were denied the opportunity to Minister will leave, but the Leader of the Opposition is move an amendment to have an in/out referendum. My not even here. He is presumably sitting somewhere, right hon. Friend cannot be telling us the exact truth wondering whether his instructions will come in a phone when he says that he is not speaking for both parts of 1189 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1190 the coalition. Perhaps he will clarify that, because I Mr Hague: The Prime Minister and I are in exactly thought he was speaking very much for the Liberal the same position. Of course we will vote to stay in a Democrats as well. successfully reformed European Union. Now perhaps the right hon. Lady will tell us how she will vote on this Mr Hague: When my hon. Friend said that he would vote Bill—[Interruption.] No, Opposition Members still do to withdraw from the European Union, he was not not know how they will vote on this Bill. avoiding doubt—I do not think we were in any doubt When Ministers from other countries ask me why about that at the beginning. He makes a fair point public opinion here is disillusioned with the European about our hon. Friends the Liberal Democrats. I will Union, I point out that there have been referendums on helpfully explain my view on their position during my the EU in France, Denmark, the Netherlands, Spain, remarks. Luxembourg, Sweden and Ireland—often twice, of course, in Ireland—yet there has been no referendum for more Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con): On the subject than a generation in the United Kingdom. The efforts of democracy, despite the resolute irresolution of Her of those who wanted to build European integration Majesty’s official Opposition, does my right hon. Friend without bringing the people with them have been utterly agree that it is important for democracy that Members self-defeating. The EU now lacks democratic legitimacy have a chance to record their support for the Bill in a because so many of those most enthusiastic about Division? If a Division is not called, there are strong ever-closer union have been afraid of asking what the supporters of the Bill—myself and my hon. Friend the British people might think of it. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown)— who stand ready to enable such a Division, to ensure Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): My right hon. Friend that right hon. and hon. Members may show their is completely right in what he just said. Furthermore, support for the Bill. with respect to Maastricht, how far the Conservative party has come! The other day my right hon. Friend the Mr Hague: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That Prime Minister actually stated that he believed there may well be necessary given that Opposition Members, should have been a referendum on Maastricht—and he despite being opposed to the Bill, have not decided how was right. they will vote. They have a few hours to decide. Mr Hague: As always we enjoy my hon. Friend’s Dame Tessa Jowell (Dulwich and West Norwood) robust support on these issues, and I am grateful for that. (Lab) rose— Several hon. Members rose— Mr Hague: I will get through a few more paragraphs, but then I will give way to the right hon. Lady. Mr Hague: I will not give way for a moment, but I will later on. I do not need to remind the House that it is almost 40 years since the British people last had a vote on what No institution can survive without the people’s support, was then the European Economic Community. Since and the EU that will emerge from the eurozone crisis then, there have been major treaties—four in the last may look very different from the EU before the crisis. quarter of a century—all of which would have required Every country in the EU will have to make potentially a referendum had the 2011 Act been in force at the time. fundamental choices about their place in Europe as a Through those treaties, the EEC has become the European result, and the future shape of Europe for decades will Community and now the European Union, and not be determined by those choices. But whatever the outcome once has there been a referendum on any of it. Some of the crisis, the EU needs reform if it is to be democratically of us campaigned for referendums on the treaties of sustainable for all its members, which it will not be if Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon. Everyone can concede of ever-greater centralisation sucks ever more powers from Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice that the party in its member states. As the Dutch Government’s recent government had said that it would ratify them in the report stated, general election campaign. “the time of ‘ever closer union’ in every possible…area is behind us”. The Lisbon treaty is in a special category, in that They are right. there was no mandate in a general election or a referendum Our policy is therefore to seek reform so that the EU from the people of this country. Persisting with the Lisbon can be more competitive and flexible for the modern treaty with no mandate from either a general election or age, so that powers can come back to the countries of a referendum—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for the European Union, and so that national Parliaments—the Wrexham (Ian Lucas) asks where I was when Maastricht indispensible vessels of democracy—can have a more took place. Is he not aware that there was a general powerful role and then put the decision in the hands of election in 1992? There was no mandate for the Lisbon the British people, as this Bill would do. treaty from a general election or a referendum, and the Labour party deeply undermined the democratic legitimacy Michael Ellis: We hear a lot nowadays about the of the European Union when it took that decision. surveillance powers of the state. Could my right hon. Friend use the powers open to him to establish where Dame Tessa Jowell: May I press the Foreign Secretary the Leader of the Opposition is? on the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed)? In the forthcoming referendum Mr Hague: I think I would get into trouble if I used that the Foreign Secretary is advocating, which way will our powers for that particular purpose, but we will no he vote? The Prime Minister has indicated that he will doubt discover in due course where the Leader of the vote to stay in the EU. How will the Foreign Secretary Opposition is today. We hope he is thinking hard about vote? what Labour’s policy will be. 1191 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1192

Mr Marsden rose— a referendum. We have heard from some of them already, and this Bill is their chance; it is the best chance currently Mr Hague: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman and available to make it happen. Not only would it be a then make a bit more progress. badge of honour for them, but it would help to show their weak leadership some real leadership that is sorely needed. Mr Marsden: I am extremely grateful to the right This is not the first time that the question of whether hon. Gentleman, who, as Foreign Secretary and previously, to consult the people has caused unmitigated dither, has played a distinguished part in supporting EU expansion muddle and confusion in the Labour leadership. When in eastern and central Europe. Given his reference to the previous Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for national Parliaments, will he tell the House what sort of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), was trying to message he thinks it sends to countries that have recently decide whether to call a general election in 2007, he acceded to the EU that he is orchestrating a cynical asked the current Leader of the Opposition, the current attempt to bring us out? shadow Foreign Secretary and the current shadow Chancellor, resulting in the decision taking so long that Mr Hague: I think the Bill sends the message that we they never made a decision at all and never held a are a robust democracy too. We welcomed Croatia into general election. The impulse to trust the people is not the European Union, and it had a referendum about exactly their hallmark. whether to join. Therefore, it does not find discussion about referendums in other parts of the European Now we wonder: what is Labour’s policy? The shadow Union surprising. That is why every Member of the Defence Secretary, the right hon. Member for East House who is a true democrat can and should unite Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), who is not here, said in behind the Bill. It is about letting the people decide. October: “I think at some point there will have to be a referendum on Those who like the EU just as it is—not me, but the EU. I don’t think it’s for today or for the next year, but I think evidently some Labour Members—can campaign to see it should happen…My preference would be an in-or-out referendum the EU regain its democratic legitimacy in this country. when the time comes.” Those, like me, who want to see Britain succeed in In January, the Leader of the Opposition told the reforming the EU can see what success we have in changing House, it, and then put the choice to the people. Those who want Britain to leave the EU come what may will also “we do not want an in/out referendum”—[Official Report, 23 January 2013; Vol. 557, c. 305.] have the chance to persuade the British people. Ultimately, it would be up to the voters to decide, and that is the The shadow Foreign Secretary said that Labour will not essence of democracy. That is why my right hon. Friend commit to an in/out referendum now, but might do the Prime Minister said that later—apparently that is the way to avoid uncertainty. “in 2015” The shadow Chancellor said: we “I don’t think we should set our face against a referendum and I certainly don’t think we can ever afford to give the impression “will ask for a mandate from the British people…to negotiate a that we know better than the voting public”— new settlement with our European partners in the next Parliament.” The Conservative party is ready to trust the voters although that was never a problem for him when with this Bill, and we are happy that the Democratic squandering tens of billions of pounds of taxpayers’ Unionist party is of the same mind. The Scottish National money. Will Labour make up its mind or not? Its chief party is not here but it is content with a referendum next strategist, the noble Lord Wood, said the week before year, which means that the people of Scotland will vote last on whether Labour would offer a referendum: twice on whether to leave the European Union. It is “It’s conceivable because we are going to make up our minds completely open to Members of other parties to support before the next election.” this Bill. Liberal Democrats can support this Bill. They Last week, the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury are democrats and I remind my hon. Friends in the said, “No, no, no. There’s no change of policy and other part of the coalition of their last election manifesto, there’s no prospect of a change of policy”. which stated: With some in favour, some against, some adamantly “The European Union has evolved significantly since the last in favour of not having a referendum, some adamantly public vote on membership over thirty years ago. Liberal Democrats for deciding later, at some point, perhaps before the therefore remain committed to an in/out referendum the next general election but who knows?—with such a shambles time a British Government signs up for a fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU.” of confusion and weak leadership, no wonder Labour Members are wondering what they are here for and Martin Horwood: The right hon. Gentleman is a fine where their leader is today. One day Unite will give Foreign Secretary and he bangs on about Europe very them their orders on how to vote on these matters. eloquently indeed. He will recall that at the time of the The Leader of the Opposition and his closest friends Lisbon treaty, the Liberal Democrats voted for an in/out are being asked to make a decision—to vote one way or referendum, not in four years’ time, the next Parliament another and be held accountable for it. The position of or at some point in the future, but then and there. Will the Labour party on this vital national and international the right hon. Gentleman remind me whether we were issue is that Labour Members would rather not be supported by a single Conservative MP at that time? asked and they would rather not be here.

Mr Hague: My hon. Friend must remember that had Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): As the Foreign our Liberal Democrat colleagues voted with us for a Secretary knows, I am with him on the idea of a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, there would have been referendum, but would he help me with this? As someone a referendum in 2008. Some Labour Members support who has attended many, many summits over the 24 years 1193 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1194 that he has been in Parliament—as a Minister, of course, Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): The he has attended many summits—does he think the right hon. Gentleman may have observed that the Prime Minister will have the time and space between Conservative Back Benches are full of volunteers supporting 2015, if he is re-elected as Prime Minister, and 2017 to their leader. Has he noticed that there are fewer than go around the whole of Europe to get the concessions 25 Labour MPs here and no leader? he needs in order to secure reform of the EU? Mr Denham: As I will explain to the hon. Gentleman Mr Hague: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the House, the reason for that is that this is a Bill is tirelessly—now, in this Parliament, never mind in the about the private problems and the private political next Parliament—going around Europe making sure difficulties of the Conservative party, so it is not surprising this country gets what it needs. The Opposition do not that so many Conservative Members are here today. have a policy to reform the EU, but we do and he is These matters do not really affect the rest of us very pursuing it. Labour never cut the EU budget, but he much, except for—I will come to this—the damage that already has. Labour signed Britain up to eurozone is being done by the antics within the Conservative bail-outs and he has got us out of them. Labour surrendered party to the interests of this country. part of the rebate and he has never surrendered part of the rebate, so the right hon. Gentleman can rest assured Philip Davies: The right hon. Gentleman talks about that my right hon. Friend will be well equipped to go the oddities of today’s Bill, and there are certainly some round Europe preserving our national interest. oddities in today’s proceedings. The greatest one I have heard so far is the shadow Foreign Secretary asking the David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): Foreign Secretary how he will vote in a referendum in Looking at the maths in the House of Commons today, four years’ time, when the shadow Foreign Secretary we have 30 Labour MPs and I have lost count of how cannot answer how he will vote on this Bill in less than many Conservatives there are. Is that not testament four hours’ time. in itself to the fact that we trust the people of this country? Mr Denham: For my part, I very much doubt that I will be here in four hours’ time to vote at all on this Bill. Mr Hague: I agree with my hon. Friend. The note Let me explain why. circulated by Labour Whips—which has also come into my possession—said: Heather Wheeler rose— “We will be looking for suitable speakers so that the chamber is not completely empty”. Dr Offord rose— They need not have worried that the Chamber would be empty, because there are hundreds of us here, determined Mr Denham: No, I will make a little progress. that the people will have their say. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): On a I believe it would be right for the House to support point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The right hon. this Bill today. It is the right Bill, at the right time, to Gentleman has said that he will not be here. I wonder give the British people their democratic right to have whether you could give some guidance on how long their say on this country’s future. We will do everything Members should remain in their places at the conclusion we can to make sure it becomes the law of the land, so of a debate to hear the winding-up speeches. that the people can decide, and in the next Parliament, the Prime Minister is determined that we will deliver on this commitment—a democratic commitment in a robustly Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Mr Rees- democratic country. Mogg, I think you know the answer to that. Members are required to hear the speech before them and two after. We are on a private Member’s Bill today, not a Government Bill, and the Front Benchers have already 10.52 am spoken. Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): I trust I will be judged a suitable speaker to make sure the Mr Denham: I am not one of those who have been Chamber is not completely empty. accused of abusing the courtesies of this House, but I am delighted to speak in this debate, which has so there is no requirement in the courtesies of this House far lived up to expectations. I would not have missed it to vote on a motion that is ridiculous, so I will not be for the world, because it must be one of the oddest voting on it. debates ever held in this Chamber on a private Member’s There was a time, not so long ago, when private Bill Friday. It is odd because of the politics of the Members’ Bills were used for matters of great social occasion. I do not think there has been a private Member’s reform, such as homosexual law reform and gay marriage. Bill Friday in the time that I have been in this House Issues of great constitutional importance were seen as when the Prime Minister has been forced by his Back the responsibilities of the Government. That may have Benchers to come here to jump to their tune. Normally, changed. Gay marriage is an important social reform, Prime Ministers hold a sort of lofty disdain for private so perhaps making it a Government proposal is progress— Members’ Bills, but our Prime Minister, in the eyes of the Government’s gay marriage proposals certainly had Europe, has been humiliated here today by his own many Government Members beside themselves. However, Back Benchers. That is one oddity about today. The constitutional reforms, such as the Great Reform Act, second oddity is the reason the Bill is here at all, which I the devolution referendum and the initial referendum shall come to, and the third oddity is what is in it. on the European Union, which were the responsibilities 1195 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1196

[Mr Denham] this House. It probably does not do us much good with the general public, but that is what we do—we throw of Government, have now been devolved by this weak these things about. What I do not expect is a Conservative and hopeless Prime Minister to private Members’ business. MP to say, “You can’t believe a Conservative Prime That is one great oddity. Minister,” and that is what the hon. Gentleman did. The Bill has arisen from the decision of Conservative Back Mrs Main: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Benchers—

Mr Denham: No, I will make a little more progress. Mr Baron: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Why has this situation come about? Why has supposedly Speaker. the most powerful politician in the land come begging his MPs to support a private Member’s Bill? The Prime Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. It Minister’s position on the issue seems clear enough. He had better be a point of order, Mr Baron. made a speech in January in which he said that after the next election, if there is a Conservative Government, he Mr Baron: It is a point of order Madam Deputy would aim to renegotiate our relationship with the EU, Speaker—or I hope it is. I seek your guidance. I have with an in/out referendum by 2017, come what may in been misquoted by the right hon. Gentleman. those negotiations. That might not be wise—there is [Interruption.] I promise the House that I have been absolutely no guarantee of any negotiations being clear directly misquoted. [Interruption.] I wrote the piece, so by 2017—but it is certainly a clear position, and it came I seek your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker, on how from the Prime Minister. one can correct the misquoting by the right hon. Gentleman. Why was that not good enough for the Conservative Members who have turned up today? Of course, many Madam Deputy Speaker: The issue is a matter for of them just want to leave the EU. They do not care debate, as the hon. Gentleman knows. I believe his when, as long as it is as soon as possible, and they do name is down to be called in this debate and he will have not trust their own Prime Minister. As soon as the ample opportunity at that point if he feels that the Queen’s Speech was published, they were after him. The record needs to be corrected. I think he is experienced hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) enough to know that these matters tend to be a point of was first off the mark, moving an amendment regretting debate rather than a point of order. the failure to mention a referendum Bill in the Queen’s Speech. He was very clear why one was needed. He Mr Denham: The first point is that this is really a wrote in The Daily Telegraph: private matter for the Conservative party. Whether they “The Prime Minister made a historic pledge to the British believe that their Prime Minister is trustworthy or believable people during his January speech,” is primarily a matter for them, not for the rest of us. If but they wish to humiliate their party leader, that is up to “where the Prime Minister’s pledge falls down is its believability.” them. I do not intend to participate in the vote later today. Let me repeat that: We know what happened. The humiliated Prime Minister “where the Prime Minister’s pledge falls down”— was forced to let the Tory party publish a referendum this “historic pledge”, let us remember— Bill, and the hon. Member for Stockton South (James “is its believability.” Wharton) was unfortunate enough, from his point of What an extraordinary statement! The reason we are view, to come top of the ballot. He might have made his here today is because the majority of Tory MPs do not name by trying to improve the lot of carers, improve believe that a historic pledge made by their own leader animal welfare or tighten gas safety, or by engaging is believed by the British people. That is the only reason with the traditional territories of private Members’ we are here, and that is why the Prime Minister is Bills, but instead he has introduced this Bill. I do not humiliated by these proceedings today. blame him for it, but the Bill is about the Tory party and not the national interest. Mr John Baron: I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman quotes very selectively from that piece. Having written Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): Will the right hon. it, I will correct him for the record. What I went on to Gentleman give way? say was that the issue was believability, not because there is an issue between the Prime Minister and his Mr Denham: No, I am going to make a little more Back Benchers, but because the issue has been between progress and then I will take another intervention. politicians in general and the electorate, because far too The aim seemed clear enough: to put the Prime many promises in the past have been broken, particularly Minister’s promise on to a statutory basis. We know by the Labour party and the Liberals, at every single what the promise was: after the next election to have a general election. If the right hon. Gentleman is going to renegotiation and then to have a referendum by 2017. quote me, he should please do it correctly. So imagine my surprise when I read the Bill, because it does not commit to a referendum after the next election. Mr Denham: I quoted absolutely verbatim from the The Bill is very clear: the referendum could happen as hon. Gentleman’s article. Let me respond to his further soon as the Bill has been passed. It is not about after the point. I would expect a Conservative MP to say, “You next election or after renegotiation—it is any time now. can’t really believe what Labour MPs say”, and I would That is very odd, because the Prime Minister is on the expect Labour MPs to say, “You can’t really believe record as opposing a referendum Bill now. Why, then, what Conservative MPs say.”That is what we do here in does the Bill, which was introduced by the hon. Member 1197 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1198 for Stockton South and drafted in Tory party central sufficiently confident in this country and sufficiently office, provide for the possibility of a referendum now? patriotic to believe that we can be a country of influence The hon. Gentleman gave the game away in an interview, and leadership in the world. I am not going to join again I am afraid, in The Daily Telegraph. Discussing those who just want to scuttle away from the challenges possible amendments to the Bill, he said that the most of the world, as Eurosceptics do. difficult amendment to deal with would be one calling Yes, there is a case for a referendum in principle, and I for a referendum before the next election, because see that. It is a long time since we had one, and to an “many MPs would be sympathetic” extent the demand for it has taken on a life of its own to such a move. beyond the issue of Europe. However, those of us who There we have it: the Bill has been drafted as broadly can see that case also have a responsibility to be clear as it has, because if it accurately reflected the Prime about the conditions in which a referendum would serve Minister’s January speech and excluded a referendum the national interest. If we are to ask people to vote, the before the next election, too many Tory MPs would choice has to be clear. We need to know what the effect have turned up demanding to amend it for an early vote. of saying yes will be, and we need to know what the Far from showing the unity of the Conservative party, effect of saying no will be. all the Bill has done is show how thin is the veneer of The hon. Member for Stockton South and the Foreign unity that they are trying to present. Again, this is Secretary both let the cat out of the bag. The hon. private grief and is no business for the rest of us. Of Member for Stockton South said that no one knows course, it is entirely pointless, because no Bill of this what the European Union will be like in 10 years’ time, sort can bind the next Parliament. Either the Conservatives and the Foreign Secretary said that it may be very win the next election or they do not—this is a pointless different from the way it is today. Both those judgments exercise. are true, so how can we have a referendum when the consequences of leaving might be clear enough, but it is Steve Brine: I thank the right hon. Gentleman and not clear what the consequences of staying will be. near parliamentary neighbour for giving way. I think Clearly, we need to pursue reform and to reshape the that the people of Winchester and Chandler’s Ford, EU so there can be a clear and settled choice. I am not which are both near to his constituency, are clear that one of those—not all of those in my party agree with they want a choice on our relationship with Europe. He this, but I do not mind there being a discussion in our has called the Bill ridiculous. Will he explain why he is party—who rule out a referendum on Europe. However, so sure that the people of Southampton, Itchen do not a referendum should only happen if it is in the national want a say on our future relationship with the EU? interest and if we can put to the people a clear and settled choice. That has not yet been delivered. Mr Denham: Let me turn to the point I was about to address on how the national interest is served by this Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend is making an important discussion. The national interest is the one thing that and thoughtful speech, and he is right to embrace the has been entirely missing from the debate so far. It is a reform agenda. Does he agree that that reform agenda debate about the Conservatives, and that is not the can start now, and that we can only conduct the reform national interest. It is not a debate about the future of agenda if we are at the top table of Europe? There our country, our influence in the world or what is best is nothing to stop Ministers beginning that process for our children, but what is best for the Conservatives immediately. as they run away from the UK Independence party. The debate is not doing the Tories much good. The Mr Denham: My right hon. Friend is right. What January speech intended to lance the boil of UKIP, and worries me is that the Prime Minister represents a party some may have noticed that it led immediately to the in which that generation of confident patriots, who Conservatives coming third in Eastleigh and losing believed that this country could shape Europe to the seats all over the country to UKIP in the council benefit of Europe and in the interests of our country, elections. Again, that is private grief and I want to talk has gone. The Conservative party is split. There are about the national interest. those who simply want to leave come what may. They are the people Lewis Carroll satirised 150 years ago Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): It when he had the Queen of Hearts say, “Sentence first, struck me as a little odd that both the hon. Member for evidence later”. They have made up their minds. The Stockton South (James Wharton) and the Foreign Secretary other faction of the Conservative party simply believes missed out UKIP in their speeches. Does my right hon. in repatriation and repeal: returning to the country Friend think that they are totally scared of mentioning those rights that give working people decent protections— UKIP? maternity pay, the right not to be maimed and killed at work, and paid holidays—in order to repeal them. Mr Denham: There is no doubt that this whole exercise Those are the only two positions that exist in today’s is driven by the Conservative party’s terror of UKIP. Conservative party. So when my right hon. Friend says In answer to the hon. Member for Winchester (Steve that these negotiations should start now, the problem is Brine)—I will come on to the specific point on a referendum this: yes, but you must have people who are going to be in a moment—I want our future to be as a confident credible in those negotiations. part of a reformed European Union. There are people We send a Prime Minister who has been forced. He who say that we could be like Switzerland or Norway. goes to meetings and everyone is laughing behind their They are fine countries, but I do not want to be like hands, because they know that he does not control his them. Clearly, the days of empire and global military own party, and that his strength to negotiate on our might are long gone and rightly so, but I am still behalf is being shot away by the antics of the people 1199 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1200

[Mr Denham] knights of the shires, going into the Whips Office to tell them that this was a constitutional outrage, that their behind him, who know that 2017 is an arbitrary date Fridays were being interrupted and that this was exclusively that bears no relationship to any decision-making processes a space of time left for the consideration of Bills by in the EU, but is entirely about trying to head off— private Members, and to bring forward Bills of great unsuccessfully, it has to be said—the threat from UKIP. importance, as we all think of our own initiatives. That is not a way to approach the national interest. I wish my hon. Friend well and I shall most certainly I am not one of those who says, “These are only vote for this Bill, because there would be a slight matters for general elections and that there must never inconsistency if I did not—although that has never be a point where people have a choice.” But to return to been a difficulty for most politicians in the past. what the hon. Member for Winchester said, if I say, “Let’s have a choice”, my constituents have a right for Kelvin Hopkins: I am most interested in what the hon. the choice to be clear—clear about the nature of the Gentleman is saying. He is right about three-line Whips. European Union they could vote for or the nature of We Labour Members have not been three-line whipped. the European Union that they would leave. There is no I have come here of my own volition. Are his colleagues clarity to that choice today. There is no reason to being three-line whipped to attend or to vote for the believe that there will be clarity to that choice on the Bill? arbitrary date of 2017.

Several hon. Members rose— Sir Richard Shepherd: I assure the hon. Gentleman that I am not the progenitor of the Whip, but I respect Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. my wonderful party, which at last has found a voice to Before I call the next speaker, it might be helpful if I express those they represent. I think that the Labour inform the House that more than 43 Members wish to Front Bench is in genuine difficulties over this matter, participate in today’s debate. There will not be a time because it is a rejection of a movement and feeling that limit, because there is not in private Members’ business, is now effective in the country. This has been too long but it would help if all Members could bear in mind that coming: an unconscionable period of time. I made a many of their colleagues wish to speak and, therefore, famous prediction, which I regret to say did not come perhaps, make their speeches just a little shorter, if possible. about, with the experience and arrogance of youth, and in a television studio in Birmingham announced that this common market racket would be over in 10 years. 11.11 pm That is, of course, now 32 years ago. Sir Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I I learned from that the tenacity with which a particular just reflect that, after the last three contributions by class of those who lead us have sought to control this Labour Members, I genuinely think that their policy is issue. There is no defence of conversation within a unsustainable; this will, I am sure, be changed before we nation, or anything. All the way through this, an elite in get to a general election. our political parties, which rises to the top, forms judgments I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton and changes its judgments. Peter Shore wrote perhaps South (James Wharton) on moving a Bill to give the the most balanced speech, titled “A thousand years of British people a referendum, and wish him well in this. British history”, when we knew nothing, rather like the It is a curious Bill for a private Member’s day, but I give other day in the Commons, about what the Government’s a cheer for that as well, because, on 21 February 1992, I intentions were in joining. That speech asks a series of also introduced a private Member’s Bill—I was No. 1 in questions. We know nothing about this. We wonder. We the ballot—to have a referendum on Maastricht. have to wait. The Conservatives also knew nothing Unfortunately, in those days Mr John Major—Sir John about it and did not have to wait. So in the end they Major as he became—was against the matter, so perhaps were great supporters of our joining what was called the I was a Prime Minister or two short. I mention that common market. because I also moved a referendum Bill during the Maastricht treaty considerations in 1993, one year exactly Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): after the private Member’s Bill. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a huge I also notice that there is a three-line Whip on this paradox in hon. and right hon. Members arguing against Bill; I think it diminishes it. I say that straight away, this Bill on the basis of the national interest, because because I remember that when I tried to reform or the national interest cannot be determined by the nation failed to reform—I am sorry that this is a catalogue of while we are in the European Union under its current failed private Member’s Bills—section 2 of the Official constitution? Secrets Act in 1988, so aggrieved were the Government, with movements on the Back Benches, upstairs, outrage Sir Richard Shepherd: I love the question. Years ago, and all the rest, that this was clearly not a matter for a when I was a very young Member, the BBC kindly Back-Bench Member of Parliament, that the then asked me—I had been disobliging over official secrets, Conservative Government, under someone I respected or whatever it was—whether I would do an essay and a greatly, put on a three-line Whip, again, against me. short broadcast for it on the national interest. University There is no paranoia in what I say, just realism. being not so far away, I filled rooms with books. What I will say that, on the private Member’s Bill on the came out on the national interest was that whoever has Official Secrets Act, there was a queue in Central Lobby a majority in this Chamber is the national interest. We of Conservative Members who had served in the second will debate it until the end of time, but in the end it is world war and were what used to be called, unlike me, resolved by a vote here, ultimately. 1201 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1202

I am more cautious about this grand expression of national constitutional history, which is being threatened. the national interest. I have the clearest view of what the Why should we defer in such an adventure, when this is national interest is: we should have immediately, as the most remarkable and ancient of all the democratic soon as possible, a vote on continued membership of communities within western Europe? Why? the European Union. I would affirm that that is in the We have had a generation of politicians who have national interest. When I hear people casually throwing acceded and conceded. As we know, nothing was yielded around questions about what is the national interest, over Maastricht. I therefore wish the Prime Minister my own truthful observation is that it is, as Madam and the Foreign Secretary well—God knows where they Deputy Speaker would say, debatable. That is what I see are in their travels—as they look at competences and all as the national interest. the rest of it. I believe that a referendum is inevitable for I want to say of my gyrations through my private the British people, and I believe that what the Labour Member’s Bills, and this matter, that this is about the party decides on this matter is also important to the most profound question that this House faces. It is not a British people. Labour Members, like Conservative narrow question of whether the country is interested in Members, have changed their mind a number of times dogs, or this and that; the country is indeed interested in on this issue. I profoundly believe, as I think all Members all those things. This touches on a living democracy. do if they reflect on our purpose here, that there should The opponents of these measures never understand be a change in the law. When change comes from that this is an ancient collection of islands, an archipelago, Europe, it comes from an authority greater than that of in whose history, and in the lines of whose history, lies this Chamber because of the cravenness of a generation the very story of liberty and freedom, whether in Scotland of British politicians who did not think that they could or England, with our own Magna Carta. We forget that. govern their own land or believe in their own country. This was the integrity. The people must be able to make a judgment. Let the people speak. During my unsuccessful speech in the past, there was a magnificent contribution by a Labour MP; it was Peter Shore. Some will remember him; he was a considerable 11.23 am figure in his own right. He made a contribution to the Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): debate on my Bill, saying that I had I find myself agreeing completely with what I believe to “managed, in a few words, to address two major points, the first be the three motivating thrusts of those who have of which is the role of the referendum, which offers one of the few brought forward the proposal we are discussing today. possibilities to remedy a fundamental weakness in our constitution. The first is the clear need for renegotiation of the terms We have no written constitution and no procedures to protect and of Britain’s relationship with the European Union; the entrench features of our national and constitutional life. Everything can be changed by a simple majority. Many other countries, as we second is the need for a referendum on Britain’s membership know, have quite elaborate procedures requiring a majority of of the EU on renegotiated terms; and the third is the two thirds for changes in constitutional matters and arrangements, question of whether we trust the British Government. I often backed up with public referendums.” find myself agreeing with Conservative Back Benchers He continued: that the Government cannot be trusted, so it is necessary to put things down in legislation in order to allow them “We have no such defence. Indeed, previously we did not need them, because only this generation of British parliamentary no wriggle-room whatever. representatives has contemplated handing to others the great I remember being one of those Members who voted prizes of national independence, self-government and the rule of with the Foreign Secretary on the question of a referendum law under our own elected representatives. It would not have at the time of Lisbon. I remember the Conservatives occurred to a previous generation to hand to others that which we saying that when they got to power, they would have a prize most greatly and have given to other countries throughout referendum on the Lisbon treaty, yet no referendum on the world in the past 50 years. That is the novelty of the proposition, against which, because we did not think it conceivable, we have no Lisbon did they hold. I think that in those circumstances defences. A referendum is a major constitutional device for defending words are not sufficient so legislation is necessary. the rights of the British people and our constitution.”—[Official Report, 21 February 1992; Vol. 579, c. 590.] Sir Gerald Howarth: I was not quite sure whether the That is what is at the heart of this matter; that is the Foreign Secretary was going to seek to intervene on question we always have to answer; that is what it is the hon. Gentleman. May I remind him that what the about. Why should we hand over our self-government, Conservative Front-Bench team said in opposition was which we prize, to others? This is not a criticism of that they would hold a referendum in the event that the other nations’ wishes to do what they want; it is about Lisbon treaty had not been ratified by the time we came our ability to judge for ourselves what is most appropriate. into office? That is why my right hon. Friend the Foreign This is not a repudiation of our friendships and our Secretary went round a number of European capitals, commitments to our allies. urging them “Please, do not ratify”—unlike what the United Kingdom had done—so that when we came to Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): Will power we would be able to veto it and have a referendum the hon. Gentleman give way? for the British people. It is that misunderstanding that is so important. This was not a categorical undertaking for a referendum; it would happen only in certain Sir Richard Shepherd: Not at the moment, if the hon. defined circumstances. Gentleman will forgive me. This is about not consigning to others the making of Mr Davidson: It sounds like a get-out to me. The clear laws and treaties for ourselves; this is about ourselves. impression created was that the Conservatives were against This vote, what we decide and what people in the future the Lisbon treaty and that a referendum would be held. decide will determine the character and strength of our When they got into power, was a referendum held? No, 1203 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1204

[Mr Davidson] Martin Horwood: Given the hon. Gentleman’s childish remarks about the Liberal Democrats, I can tell him it was not. That is what people will remember. That is that he has lost one member of Unite today. I am what the people out there remember; they remember holding up my trade union membership card, which I that the Conservative party could not be trusted to have stuck to religiously since my days in the charity abide by its promise to have a referendum on Lisbon. sector, but I can give it to him after the debate and he That is why I support the proposals before us today. can do what he likes with it.

Ms Gisela Stuart: A small group of us here have Mr Davidson: Well, I suggest the hon. Gentleman shared these debates. For the benefit of those who did does not tempt me to do what I like with it, because not, Governments have found ways to get out of having what I might like to do with it is not necessarily what he to comply with their promises once they are in government would enjoy, unless he is not the man I think he is. —and with the Tories it was about when to ratify. With the Lib Dems, they got out of having a referendum on Stephen Pound rose— the Lisbon treaty by suddenly wanting an in/out referendum —and now that they can have that, they want something Mr Davidson: No, no; if you offer it to one, then you else. The real lesson is: once in government, people do have to—Anyway, I will be having consultations in not allow referendums; in opposition, they are much Room 220 in Portcullis house for those who wish to see more likely to promise them. me privately. As we all know, it is really UKIP that has to be Mr Davidson: Absolutely. I was rebuking the congratulated on this Bill. This would not be coming Conservatives, but don’t start me on the snivelling Liberals. forward in this way if the Conservatives were not under Those points have already been made far better than I pressure from UKIP. My side should not be unduly could make them. Shooting the Liberals in a barrel is enjoying what is happening with the Conservatives and just too easy and too self-indulgent. UKIP, because UKIP is also entirely capable of eating into our vote, as voting for UKIP is a vote against Stephen Pound: It is good fun, though! leadership and government by an elite that is seen to be out of touch. It is a revolt, in a sense, by those who see themselves as little people ignored by the existing system. Mr Davidson: Yes, shooting the Liberals is good fun, While Europe has been the particular issue around but it is too easy. which it has coagulated, that is not necessarily the only issue on which it sees itself as divorced from politics. Heather Wheeler: Will the hon. Gentleman like to However, the Conservatives have reacted to UKIP almost expand in his short and pithy speech on how he is going solely on this issue. to vote today? Otherwise, he is not trusting the people. The Government’s position is much weaker than it appears. I was appalled to hear the Prime Minister say Mr Davidson: Well, the Whips have been to see me before the negotiations had started that he was going to and they deployed the ultimate threat. They said, “If be voting for Britain to stay in. That grossly undermines you think of voting for this, we will send round Len the Government’s negotiating position. Who goes into McClusky.”I said, “I know Len McClusky.Len McClusky negotiations and says, “We will vote to accept the terms is a friend of mine. I had Len McClusky’s support in we are offered” before the negotiations have started? the last general election. I had the support not only of That seems to me to be an incredibly weak position. Len McClusky but of the GMB, Unison, UCATT and After today’s votes and discussions, we ought to enter the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and into a period of serious discussion of the terms on Firemen, while opposing me were only Conservatives, which we wish to seek renegotiation. What is it that we nationalists and snivelling Liberals. And I got 60% of want to see? I want to spell out a number of points I the vote.” think we ought to discuss, because, knockabout apart—and Now, in those circumstances, Len McClusky does not snivellers apart—these are serious issues that we have frighten me. I am drawing to people’s attention—this is got to debate. only fair—the fact that, as I understand it, Len McClusky and Unite are in favour of Britain remaining in Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Clearly that discussion the European Union. They find themselves in these is going to start now and go on for four years until 2017. circumstances in agreement with the snivellers opposite. If there was a vote now, I would vote to come out, but It is not necessarily the case that Len McClusky and now we are going to have this alternative plan. It is good Unite are right on all questions, as Members will be that we have four years to try and get it right, so the aware. Before I move on, I want to congratulate the British people can then say, “Actually we like the end hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) on result that the Prime Minister has negotiated”—or they introducing this measure. He was obviously enjoying say that they do not and we leave. In my view, this himself, and if he carries on like that he will undoubtedly makes a pretty good fist of dealing with this problem. be punished by being promoted to the Front Bench—sooner rather than later. Mr Davidson: I have considerable sympathy with that I also congratulate those who are really behind this point of view, but it is grossly undermined by the fact proposal—and that is UKIP. [Interruption.] I am sorry, that the Prime Minister has already indicated he intends a sniveller. I give way to the hon. Member for Cheltenham to vote for the terms that are offered after renegotiation, (Martin Horwood). irrespective of what those terms are. That is an absurd 1205 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1206 negotiating position, and the silence now among Members Mr Davidson: I possibly have more faith in the Prime on the Government Benches speaks eloquently to their Minister than my hon. Friend does. Had the Prime support for my position. Minister not to some extent sold the jerseys, I think all What points for renegotiation should we be focusing these issues could very well be negotiated with our on? The first is the question of ever-closer union. It is colleagues, because we are not alone. I do not believe clear to me that we have to make it clear—absolutely that Britain is the only country that wants to retain clear, crystal clear—that we reject totally the concept of control over its immigration policy.I think many colleagues ever-closer union and the idea that the EU is a ratchet support the position we are taking on this question, and which only ever turns in one direction. I support devolution I will come on to the question of dates in a moment. for Scotland on the principle that I believe powers The next point we ought to be dealing with is the should be moved downwards. I support the concept of question of the common agricultural policy. That has been subsidiarity, too, as I believe that in principle we ought covered in this House on a number of occasions, so I to say that all powers held at any given level should be will not delay us by discussing it, as has the question of moved to the level below, unless a very strong case can the cost of the European Union, and the waste and be made for retaining them where they are. The onus extravagance. ought to be on those who wish to hold them centrally to The final point I want to make is that the Conservative justify that position, rather than the converse. That has drive for renegotiation seems to be driven by the sort of not been the position of successive British Governments impulse that means every time Conservatives walk by a up until now, and it should be, and I think we ought to house and see a chimney, they regret that a small boy is make it absolutely clear that that is our position going not climbing up it. I think the Conservative party’s wish forward, so that the inexorable expansion of the EU’s to repatriate powers over labour relations and working powers—like the Blob in the science fiction films that conditions is driven by a desire to drive down terms and used to replicate itself every 24 hours and expand into conditions to the level of the 18th or 17th or 16th century, new areas—is halted and constrained. if they think they can get away with it. There is no future for Britain in the long term if we go back to David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): The hon. Gentleman having small boys climb chimneys. It is rules and has a reputation for being a straight-talking politician regulations—and, indeed, red tape—that stop us having and he is making a powerful case, but the suspense is small boys climbing chimneys. Those Conservatives too much. Will he tell the House which way he is going who say that the main drive behind renegotiating the to vote? EU treaties is to have a freer labour market have got to come clean and say whether they believe a search to the Mr Davidson: I will leave the hon. Gentleman in bottom is the way forward for Britain. I do not believe suspense for a little longer, if he does not mind, as I am we should be seeking to compete by lowering working worried that if Members know how I am going to vote, standards, and that is one of the points on which Len they will leave the Chamber with the question resolved. McCluskey and I would be as one. If we accept the points that most of the Government Members, and many on our side, have been making, we Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): If the hon. Gentleman would want to see three stages, and that is where I do tells us, it will put us out of our misery. agree with the Government. The first stage would be renegotiation and the second would be a referendum. I Mr Davidson: I am glad to hear that. have an open mind on how I will vote at that time, The second issue is control of our borders. I do not because I recognise that the European Union has done believe that it is appropriate to have enormously tight many excellent things that I support, but, similarly, it restrictions on immigration from outwith the EU and has done many things that I do not support. How I vote have unlimited immigration from within the EU. That in the referendum will depend on the balance reached in leads to a situation in which some of the restrictions on negotiations. migration from outside the EU are, in my view, too tight, driven by a desire to keep down the numbers. It is Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): I hope that meaningless to have restrictions on the outside and the hon. Gentleman does not mind me referring to an allow anybody who is given leave to remain in Spain, earlier point he made, because I was checking something France, Greece, Bulgaria or Romania to come into the online while he was giving his brilliant speech. It is worth United Kingdom simply because those countries have pointing out that a number of trade unions are actively given them citizenship rights. We have to have control campaigning for a referendum. Indeed, the advisory over our borders, which means saying to our European board of The People’s Pledge, one of the great organisations colleagues that we do not accept unfettered free movement calling for a referendum and which is running a successful of people if it is not in the United Kingdom’s interest at campaign, was made up of at least three senior union any particular given time. representatives, including Bob Crow and Bill Greenshields, as well as a number of others—the list goes on. So to Graham Stringer: I agree with my hon. Friend’s general suggest that the trade unions are opposed to a referendum views on the EU, and I agree with him about the Lib or in favour of continued membership or continued Dems, and I agree with the points he is making about escalation of our union within the EU is not strictly true. what renegotiation should consist of. In that, however, he is asking for fundamental changes to the treaty of Mr Davidson: Sorry, I did not think I was actually Rome and many of the treaties that follow it. Does he saying that all unions were taking a particular position. really believe that the other 27 countries of the EU are I think that most of the unions will take the view that going to vote to change those treaties? they either want or do not want a referendum. I know 1207 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1208

[Mr Davidson] tell us how late he intends to leave it before we get this large group of Labour MPs once again calling for a that many of them do want a referendum, and they will referendum? decide on the basis of what they believe is offered to their members once the renegotiations are complete. I Mr Davidson: There is no difficulty in identifying a support renegotiations, and I have always been clear substantial group of Labour MPs who are in favour of about that. I am glad to hear that Bob Crow appears to a referendum—the issue is about the timing and the have greater support from those on the Government terms of the referendum, and I want to discuss that point Benches than he has from those on the Opposition now. A strong case has been advanced for a referendum Benches in some cases. Ever since he declared that he now, before the election, but I wish to make it clear that would be biting the heads off only three babies a day his I am completely opposed to that. An in/out referendum popularity has increased among many Government now would give us two choices, neither of which I find Members. [Interruption.] It was four babies a day, then. acceptable. Staying in on the existing terms would give the green light to those who wish to continue their Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): This spendthrift ways and want to continue the process towards debate is not about what kind of trade union laws we ever-closer union. Getting out is simply a retreat and a should have; it is about who makes those laws. The hon. surrender to separatism. I am opposed to that in Scotland, Gentleman referred to young boys going up chimneys, so I am also opposed to it in the United Kingdom. but that practice was ended not by the European Union There is, however, a case for a referendum now on but by this Parliament, just as slavery was abolished by giving the Government the power to renegotiate the this Parliament and as women were given the vote terms of membership. A referendum now on allowing by this Parliament. the Government to renegotiate—or on demanding that they start renegotiating—would send a signal to our Mr Davidson: So now we have it: the hon. Gentleman European colleagues that we are serious about this. wants this Parliament to have the power to put small They, like us, must be doubting how serious the Government boys up chimneys. I think he will find that there are are about driving this forward, given that the Prime rules in the European Union that prevent us from Minister has already said that he intends to accept putting small boys up chimneys. I think that is a very whatever terms are on offer. valuable clarification, and members of Unite and elsewhere will take it into account. Mike Gapes: Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government do not need a referendum decision by this The Labour party’s view on these matters is best described House, because they can go ahead and start renegotiating as being in a state of flux. It is a caterpillar, which, in a tomorrow if they wished to do so, and come up with short time, will emerge as a butterfly. I believe that we proposals? The problem is that the Government do not will change our position in a relatively short time, as have a negotiating position and, as the Foreign Secretary events change, because we are clearly heading for a made clear to the Foreign Affairs Committee when we crisis in the European Union. I do not believe that the asked him about this, they do not intend to do this until euro is sustainable in its current form for much longer. after the next general election. As the euro degenerates, and as unemployment rises—it already affects 50% of young people in Spain—we will Mr Davidson: To be fair, I covered some of those see more social unrest in Europe and there will be an points earlier. I am conscious that others wish to speak, inexorable drive among the members of the euro to so may I just say that we do need to have an agenda for change the relationship within that bloc and, in turn, change, and I think we need to wait for a crisis? I do not within the European Union. understand—this is why I am not supportive of the The Labour party’s policy will change with that. I am proposed wording—the point of saying that this has to confident that in the years to come I will find myself be done by 31 December 2017. No rationale has been capable of supporting Labour party policy with a greater advanced as to why the chosen date should be 2017 degree of enthusiasm than I do at the moment. I remember rather than 2016 or 2018—or even why it should be opposing the euro before it was fashionable to do so. I 31 December. If we commit ourselves to having a can also remember when the policy changed and it was renegotiation, the best way of achieving success is to act impossible to find any Labour Member in favour of the when the EU has its next crisis, which cannot be all that euro—indeed, it was almost impossible to find any far off. Labour Member who had ever been in favour of joining the euro. So things will change, as they should. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Next week.

George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): The Mr Davidson: It may very well be next week. If it is hon. Gentleman and several other Labour Members, next week, I would hope that the Government would including the hon. Members for Luton North (Kelvin seize on that opportunity—if only they had an agenda Hopkins) and for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey), were instrumental of items that they wanted to renegotiate—to seek allies 10 years ago in launching Labour Against the Euro. in the European Union in order to renegotiate our They led a group of about 40 Labour MPs which finally terms of entry. I see no reason in those circumstances, if finished off former Prime Minister Blair’s attempts to we renegotiate terms before the next election, why we join the euro. We used to call that group LATE, for short, should have to wait until after the election. The issue, and some of us used to say, “Better late than never”, for me, is a question of agreeing that we want renegotiation because it was an eleventh-hour arrival on the battlefield. and agreeing that we want a referendum, but not binding I know that the hon. Member for Glasgow South West ourselves to any particular time. That is why, on the (Mr Davidson) wants to keep us in suspense, but will he advice of the Whips, I shall not vote for the motion. 1209 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1210

11.48 am Sir Gerald Howarth: I know that the whole House is delighted that my hon. Friend saw the light. Some of us Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): First, I want to put not only campaigned in the referendum in 1975 but on record my congratulations to my hon. Friend the voted against the Single European Act—only three Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) on a colleagues who did so remain in the House and, brilliant, deft and extremely well-conducted speech in unfortunately, they are all Opposition Members. This is which he dealt with complex interventions in a very, terribly important. My hon. Friend voted for the measure very mature fashion. I congratulate him not only on his at the time because he thought that he was voting for a speech but on its content. common market in goods and services. That is what the I am extremely glad that my right hon. Friend the British people thought, and we tried to persuade them Prime Minister, despite the fact that referendums were that it was going to be more than that: it was going to be completely off the agenda for some time before the a united states of Europe. That is the direction of travel, announcement was made in the Bloomberg speech, or and there is no indication that the direction of travel has in relation to the Bill, has said in the past, as I said in a changed, which is why we need a referendum. short intervention, that he thought there should have been a referendum on the Maastricht treaty. Of course he was right, and I shall explain why in a moment. In Mr Cash: Indeed; I note what my hon. Friend has 1996 I introduced a Bill, for which I was given what said. This issue is about political union. If we strip away could be considered a bit of a going-over by the then all the arguments about repatriation and renegotiation, Chief Whip and the Whips, one of whom is now a there is no doubt whatsoever for anyone—I go to COSAC, Minister. It was an entertaining experience, and all I can which is the meeting of the chairmen of national scrutiny say is that it made no difference whatsoever to my committees on European affairs throughout Europe; attitude to the need for a referendum, as I shall explain. 27, now 28, chairmen joined together—that this is My right hon. Friend was right: the most important about political union. We should be under no illusion principle of the Bloomberg speech is the fourth principle, about that. It is not about anything else now. We had which overrides all the others, as they all depend on it. Mr Barroso telling us recently in the blueprint paper He said that the root of our national democracy is our that the European Parliament is the only Parliament for national Parliament, but the essence of that democracy the European Union. It is categorical, and I will challenge is when it is decided by Parliament that we shall give the any Member of Parliament to get up and suggest that people the right to make the decision, which is the this is not embedded in the Maastricht treaty. That is ultimate test of trust in the electorate. what it was all about—creating a new European Government, and it has grown exponentially ever since. Jim Dowd: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is right. We said that we wanted to have a referendum on several Mr Cash: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman in a of those treaties. Indeed, the Conservative party was moment. united in voting for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. It is estimated that 35 million people—35 million However, we have now reached a different situation. That voters—have effectively been disfranchised by the is why it is important for the House to bear in mind continuous evolution, since 1975, of giving away more that it is not a question of what may happen between and more powers as well as the right to determine the now and 2017; it is happening already. There is clear kind of policies and government that they want. That is evidence of the development, endorsed by the other completely unacceptable. I voted yes in 1975, because I member states, of a two-tier Europe between the eurozone believed then that there was a case for allowing a and the European Union itself. That is the fundamental common market and that we should test whether or not change that is already taking place, without a treaty. it would work. I also voted for the Single European Act, We know from the discussions that are going on in but I tabled an amendment that nothing in that measure Europe that there is much talk of moving forward should derogate from the sovereignty of the United without another treaty. That is why we need to have a Kingdom Parliament. That is why, when it came to referendum. That is why the Government are right to Maastricht, I was absolutely determined to fight it at all promote the circumstances in which my hon. Friend the costs, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member Member for Stockton South, who came first in the for Aldridge-Brownhills (Sir Richard Shepherd). ballot, has the opportunity to introduce his Bill. That is why the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): taken part in the debate, and that is why it is so essential My hon. Friend mentioned an important word: sovereignty. that we get it right. This is about political and economic Is it not right that sovereignty belongs to the people? freedom. Even the greatest and wisest Members in the Chamber are merely here-today-and-gone-tomorrow politicians. Sovereignty belongs to the people and their heirs and David Rutley: My hon. Friend is making a powerful successors. It is not ours to take away: we must have a case. I think he is coming on to the point that there are referendum. not just political reasons, but clear-cut economic reasons why we need to have a referendum, not least of which Mr Cash: I could not agree more. People have fought are the fact that 70% of the regulations that are an and died. The only reason we live in the United Kingdom unacceptable burden on our businesses and their employees in peace and prosperity is because, in the second and emanate from Europe, and the fact that there is 55% first world wars, we stood up for that freedom and youth unemployment in Spain and in Greece, which is democracy. Churchill galvanised the British people to blighting a generation. Does my hon. Friend agree that stand up for the very principles that are now at stake. there are economic reasons for a referendum? 1211 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1212

Mr Cash: I totally agree. My hon. Friend and I, with happening. That is why we need to have a renegotiation. other Members, have debated this in complete unity, for This is about trust. It is about allowing people to have the same reason: freedom is about freedom of choice. In government of a kind that responds to their own wishes, parliamentary and constitutional terms, freedom of as expressed in general elections. That is why we cannot choice depends upon freedom of choice at the ballot have two Governments and two Parliaments covering box and in the marketplace. If we get the first, the the same subject matter. It is complete, incoherent, political choice, wrong, as has been going on with this absurd nonsense. European Government, we will end up with austerity, small and medium-sized businesses not being able to Mrs Main: My hon. Friend has been tempted on work properly, and massive unemployment among young numerous occasions by Opposition Members to debate people, which I know Opposition Members are worried the merits of in and out, but that is not what today is about, as are we on the Government Benches. about. They will not say whether or not they will have a When 65% of the young people in several countries in referendum. Today is about whether we will debate that Europe—Spain, Greece and so on—are unemployed, with the public—not in here among ourselves, but take that is unacceptable and it is a direct result of the way in it out to the public. The Opposition want to turn which the European Union has been centralised. Opposition today’s debate into a debate about the merits. I caution Members have been saying recently, “We do not like the my hon. Friend about being seduced by Opposition centralisation”—people who are completely in favour Members. Make them answer whether they will vote for of the European Union, until they suddenly realise that a referendum. the centralisation is creating austerity, unemployment and misery for those young people. It is unacceptable. Mr Cash: I think my hon. Friend can be certain that I am not likely to be seduced, either by the Opposition or Mr Binley: Does my hon. Friend agree that those who anybody else, for that matter. I simply say this: this is perpetuate the myth of the single market, arguing that about the principle of a referendum. the UK will lose 3 million jobs if we come out, fail to take I conclude with a simple statement: this is about account of the fact that there is a £70 billion surplus, trust. It is about trust in people. Because we are doing it and no business in Europe will cease to trade with this through a Bill, as is required, we will give authority country whether we are in the single market or not? through Parliament to have a referendum. That is what this is all about. It is to give the British people their Mr Cash: Furthermore, with respect to our trade right to have their say. There is no question but that the deficit, as I have said on a number of occasions, in 2012, Bill must pass, but it needs to be secured by a vote on according to the Office for National Statistics, we had a both sides of the House. I am afraid that Opposition trade deficit of £70 billion with the other 27 member Members are neglecting their duty to their constituents states. To give the point some substance, Germany, on if they continue to refuse to support the Bill. the other hand—no wonder there are two Europes, which are increasingly becoming German-oriented—had 12.2 pm a trade surplus with the other 27 member states in 2011 Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Many hon. that has now gone up to £72 billion. Members wish to speak so I will keep my remarks as It is not really a European Union any more. It is brief as possible. so heavily dominated, wilfully or otherwise, by the I am delighted and honoured to be a supporter of the circumstances that have created that imbalance, and Bill. I congratulate the hon. Member for Stockton that of course has its effect on the qualified majority South (James Wharton) on taking this subject for his voting. That is why we have to have a referendum, and private Member’s Bill and on bringing it before the we need to have it sooner rather than later, because the House in the way that he did. I well remember that fundamental renegotiation itself is dependent on the when I had a relatively high place in the ballot a number fact that the circumstances have already arisen, and as I of years ago, I introduced a private Member’s Bill for a said just now, not necessarily with a new treaty. referendum on the Lisbon treaty. I had half an hour to deliver a speech in the House, thanks in no small way to Wayne David: So that we can be clear about the hon. the kind co-operation of the hon. Member for Christchurch Gentleman’s position, does he favour the United Kingdom (Mr Chope), who often attends on Fridays on private having a relationship with the European Union similar Member’s Bills, but unfortunately there was not as to that of Norway and Switzerland, or does he think we much interest in it as there is on this occasion, and there should be entirely separate and have no relationship certainly were not as many Members present to ensure with the single market? that it got any further. However, I am proud of having introduced that private Member’s Bill, and I congratulate Mr Cash: I have made my position entirely clear on a the hon. Member for Stockton South on this measure. I number of occasions. We need to have something in the also congratulate the Prime Minister on his support for nature of a European Free Trade Association arrangement. the initiative. We need an association of nation states. I am off to As has been said, it is 38 years since we have had a Lithuania the day after tomorrow to discuss these matters referendum on the UK’s relationship with Europe, and with the other 27 chairmen. The main topic of conversation it is now time to give people their say.Therefore, representing now is democratic legitimacy, and it is not just in this as I do a party that believes in consulting the people, country, it is not just in this Chamber, it is not just in the and has advocated referendums on a number of occasions opinion polls, it is not just in the Eurobarometer, which in Northern Ireland on a range of constitutional issues, has shown that trust in Europe has completely evaporated and has supported that consistently, particularly on all over Europe. Wake up, I say. This is the fact, and it is Europe, we will be voting in favour of the Bill 1213 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1214 enthusiastically and without equivocation. I know that Mr Dodds: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have in so doing we will be representing the vast majority of talked on more than one occasion in this House about the people of Northern Ireland, even those who support the disconnect that now exists between the people and parties that are in favour of being part of the European the political class in Parliament. People feel that their Union. Whether they are for or against the United concerns are not being given high enough priority and Kingdom’s continued membership of the European that, with regard to the EU, promises have been broken. Union, on whatever terms, they believe that it is high On the Lisbon treaty, for example, they believe that the time they had a say in this debate and that it should no Labour party promised a referendum on the European longer be confined to this Chamber and the television constitution. I remember before a previous election studies. Tony Blair, with the encouragement of Lord Mandelson, If we can have referendums on regional assemblies, bringing the referendum rabbit out of the hat, but he devolved government, police commissioners, local mayors reneged on that pledge when he got into office, claiming and the alternative vote, how on earth can it be logical, then that there were red lines that they would negotiate sensible or defensible for any Member of this House or and that it was therefore no longer a constitution. The any party to take the position that on this issue of such people simply do not believe that. fundamental importance to the United Kingdom’s We have talked about the Lib Dems going back on democracy, as the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills their promise of an in/out referendum. Reference has (Sir Richard Shepherd) so eloquently said, and as others been made to the cast-iron guarantee the Prime Minister have said, the British people will uniquely be denied gave on the Lisbon treaty. I understand the reasons that their say? I think that we have now reached a point in have been advanced on why that did not happen—for our political debate and in the nation’s history where example, the fact that it had already been implemented. that position is simply untenable. Nevertheless, I agree with the hon. Member for Glasgow South West that very many people believe that if we had I have no doubt that, as the hon. Member for Glasgow wanted to have a referendum on Lisbon, even after it South West (Mr Davidson) said, we will soon see a had been introduced, we could have done if the political change in the stated positions of the other parties in this will had existed. However, it did not exist, and that was House. We now know where the Conservatives stand. the problem. The leader of the Liberal Democrats has now conceded that this is inevitable. Having been in favour of an in/out referendum, their current position is simply untenable. Mr Cash: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that The Labour party is already debating how to get itself in fact fundamental change is going on already, and off the hook it is now on. I believe that it, too, will come that that, even without a treaty, is the real reason for to support a referendum, because the vast majority of having a referendum? its supporters want one. Mr Dodds: Yes, I agree. That is why it is not enough merely to have it enshrined in law that there will be a Andrew Bridgen: I thank the right hon. Gentleman referendum at some future point if there is some new and his party for their support for this important Bill. treaty or whatever. There is a continuing erosion of We have heard about the rising dissatisfaction with the sovereignty and it is therefore important that the matter European Union across Europe, so does he agree that if is brought to a head sooner rather than later. this House was to vote wholeheartedly for a referendum, we could lead the way in Europe, because many other Mrs Main: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? countries also want to renegotiate their relationship with the European Union? Mr Dodds: Yes, and then I will make more progress.

Mr Dodds: It is important to make the point that this Mrs Main: Is it not a fact that any referendum that is not only a vote on something that is important to the was held would be on the treaty change, not on in or people in all regions and parts of the United Kingdom out? We have never had a promise of an in/out referendum, and will be welcomed by them; it is also something that only a “no more change to a particular treaty”referendum. other countries are looking to us to give a lead on. The We need to make that point very clear. This is our one Foreign Secretary pointed out that there have been a opportunity to do this. number of national plebiscites and votes on European issues in many countries, sometimes two or three times Mr Dodds: The hon. Lady makes a very important on the same issue, but the fact is that people are crying and fundamental point. That is why this Bill is so out for a say. As the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) significant and deserves the widespread support of Members said, this is the big issue of the day in Europe: political of this House. legitimacy, democracy and accountability. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will my right hon. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Before my Friend give way? right hon. Friend moves on from his point about the Labour party’s approach to the issue, will he agree that Mr Dodds: I will not give way any more because I the defence that we cannot have a referendum until want to make progress. I am conscious that others still there has been substantial constitutional change is really wish to speak. very thin, given that we have had Maastricht, the Single We are here on a Friday having to go through this European Act and the Lisbon treaty? Surely there has process for all the reasons that we understand. One of been enough substantial change in our relationship the reasons is that the promises and pledges that have with Europe to give people a say now. been made in the past by Front Benchers of the main 1215 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1216

[Mr Dodds] On the issue of austerity, at a time when this country is facing major cuts and when personal and household parties have not been followed through on. Therefore, incomes are affected, it is absolutely scandalous that people are looking not just for a promise or a pledge but between 2007 and 2013 the UK will have contributed for some kind of guarantee enshrined in legislation. Of £29 billion on EU structural funds and received back course we know that this Parliament cannot bind a only £8.7 billion to spend in this country. That is simply successor Parliament, but that applies to every aspect of unacceptable and it is damaging to communities and legislation—to every Act that is ever passed. However, a households right across this United Kingdom. guarantee enshrined in legislation will make it a lot There was some hope that the negotiations for the harder for any incoming Prime Minister of whatever 2014-20 multi-annual framework would lead to a sea party to have—I was going to say the courage—the change in EU spending, and I congratulate the Prime audacity to come before the House and say, “We’re Minister on what he has managed to do. However, going to repeal the right of the people to have a referendum despite a Council agreement to reduce the budget, the under the Act that was passed”, as I hope that it will be trend of waste and inefficiency will continue. Spending as a result of this initiative. on the unaccountable EU civil service will rise by 2%. In 1975, 67% of voters in this country chose to The organisation already employs 3,000 unelected officials remain within the Common Market—a union which we on salaries of more than ¤150,000 and gold-plated were told at that time was more about co-operation pensions. between European nations on trade. However, today we The European External Action Service, which a Minister view an EU landscape that is vastly changed—so much told us a year or two ago would not cost us any more so that, as a senior Labour peer recently noted, the and would be neutral in terms of expenditure, is in line mandate secured by the Government in 1975 to receive a spending increase of more than 3% for its “belongs to another time and another generation.” role in undermining the foreign policy of countries Over the past three decades, there has been a steady across Europe. The EU’s 56 quangos will receive an transfer of powers from our sovereign Parliament here increase of 4% under the new budget. That is not to at Westminster to the corridors and back alleys of mention specific examples, such as the House of European Brussels—a process that still continues on a weekly and History, which, for those Members who have not heard monthly basis, inexorably and inevitably, in the pursuit about it, will cost—believe it or not—£136 million. of the goal of ever-closer political union. British taxpayers are contributing £18 million to that This change has not been abstract. It is not detached project. from the day-to-day realities of everyday life; it has The European Parliament continues to split its activities been hard felt by people living in every region of the over three locations—something that my party in the United Kingdom. How often do business people come European Parliament is deeply opposed to and fighting to us complaining about the red tape and regulations to change—and it will cost ¤1 billion to have two places, that emanate from the EU? How many times do we hear Brussels and Strasbourg, as the seat of the European complaints about untrammelled immigration from EU Parliament over the next seven years. That is why it is countries as we no longer have the power effectively to essential that the people have their say on these issues. control our own borders? I could mention a number of They are examples of why the waste and inefficiency other policy areas. need to be exposed. Mr Laurence Robertson: As Chairman of the Northern The fundamental point is that on these issues, whether Ireland Committee, I congratulate the Democratic Unionist they be expenditure or setting policy with regard to party on taking a very clear stance on this issue. The agriculture or foreign affairs, it should be for the British right hon. Gentleman refers to the 1975 referendum. people, through their elected representatives in this Does he remember that the brochure put out by the House, to decide the policy of the United Kingdom. It then Labour Government, “Britain’s New Deal in Europe”, is not for unelected people in Brussels to forge for the contained a guarantee that a British Minister could people of the United Kingdom an ever-closer political veto anything that came from Europe at that time? union that they do not want. This House will fail in its What this is really all about is the erosion of that duty if we do not respond to supporters of all of our guarantee through qualified majority voting. parties who want a say, a voice and a vote. I commend the hon. Member for Stockton South for proposing this Mr Dodds: The hon. Gentleman makes a very important Bill and urge all hon. and right hon. Members to point. He reminds the House and the public of the support it in the Division later. pledges and guarantees that have been given in the past. We need this Bill to enshrine in law a commitment to Several hon. Members rose— giving people their say, because they are fed up with broken promises. They have found that they cannot trust the political class generally on pledges on Europe, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. because whichever party is in power becomes sucked May I again say to hon. Members that they just need to into the ever-increasing desire to have ever-closer union. look around the Chamber to see how many of their That is simply unacceptable. colleagues want to speak in this debate? If we are to accommodate as many speakers as possible, Members Mr Binley: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? must speak for less time than is currently the case. I cannot put a time limit on speeches, but I plead with Mr Dodds: No. Having said that I would be brief, I Members to show each other mutual respect and do want to conclude my remarks and not get sidetracked their best to leave enough time to get as many speakers any further. in as possible. 1217 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1218

12.18 pm of people are reaching the conclusion that I have reached: our country would be better off out of the European Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I hope I will Union. set an appropriate example, Madam Deputy Speaker, in my brief speech. I want us to trade with our European neighbours, but I do not see why we should have to pay billions of It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for pounds every year for the privilege of doing so, particularly Belfast North (Mr Dodds). I agree with what he said when we buy more goods from them than they buy from and it is worth noting that he leads at Westminster a us. completely united party on matters relating to the European Union. I also commend and congratulate my hon. Mike Gapes: The hon. Gentleman says that he wants Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) out. Does he accept that Norway, which has not joined on coming first in the ballot and proposing this excellent the European Union, has to pay billions of pounds to Bill. get access to the European Union’s single market? It is surprising how quickly things change in politics. Members will recall that less than two years ago, I Mr Nuttall: That is an interesting point, but I do not moved a motion on holding a referendum on our want to get drawn down the road of talking about the membership of the European Union. On that day, all merits of our membership of the European Union. parties had a three-line Whip against my motion. Today, The Bill is not about the merits of our membership of my party has a three-line Whip to support a referendum the European Union, but about whether our constituents on the European Union and the official Opposition are should have a say. It is because the Bill will give the so weak and divided that they cannot even make their people of Bury, Ramsbottom and Tottington in my minds up what to do. constituency the historic opportunity to vote for their The Bill will be welcomed warmly by my constituents freedom from the European Union that it has my in Bury, Ramsbottom and Tottington. It is nearly four wholehearted support. I wish it a speedy passage through decades since they have had a say on this country’s this House. relationship with the European Union. That means that many of them have never had a say at all. Since that Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Thank time, the nature of what was then the European Economic you for your brevity, Mr Nuttall. Community, which was widely called the Common Market, has changed out of all recognition. As the stated aim of 12.24 pm the treaty of Rome of “ever-closer union” has gradually been achieved, the tentacles of what is now the European Dame Tessa Jowell (Dulwich and West Norwood) Union have been felt in a growing number of areas of (Lab): It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, and I life, in a way that was never envisaged by the British congratulate the hon. Member for Stockton South (James people when they voted to stay in the Common Market Wharton) on procuring his place in the ballot for private in 1975. Member’s Bills. To save time and divert interventions, let me say that I Martin Horwood: On a point of information, the am a lifelong European. I campaigned for and voted yes question in 1975 was not about the European Economic in the referendum 30 years ago, and I will abstain in the Community, but the European Community. The words vote on this Bill because it is much more about party “Common Market” were inserted by Eurosceptics in management than the essential higher purpose of our Harold Wilson’s Government. A lot of that historical national interest. Those who claim that people are being debate, which I have been looking at over the past couple denied a choice on Europe should listen to the wisdom of days, was about the political, social and international on the doorstep. We must, of course, take seriously the aspects of the European Community. Those aspects rise of UKIP, and understand why millions of people— were in Harold Wilson’s official leaflet that went out. including former supporters of my party as well as of the Government—are voting against the major parties. Mr Nuttall: I did say that it was widely referred to as This initiative is being driven by UKIP. It is opening up the Common Market. It was called the European Economic old divisions and fails to recognise that even for UKIP Community, then the word “Economic” was dropped supporters, Europe is not the greatest concern. We and it became the European Community, as the hon. should attend to that if we are serious about hearing the Gentleman rightly says. It then changed from the European voice of the British people. Community to the European Union as ever-closer union began to take effect. Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con) rose— Dame Tessa Jowell: I am sure the hon. Gentleman Mr Binley: I had the good fortune a long time ago of will have a chance to speak; I will not take an intervention working as a bag carrier for Edward Heath in his private because I want to make my speech as quickly as I can. office. At that time, we talked about political union We must understand that the momentum behind this being the very essence of what this adventure was about. debate comes principally from a sense of suffering felt Does my hon. Friend agree with that? by families up and down the country—anxiety about whether their children will get jobs; fears about long-term Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend makes a very good security and the sustainability of their pensions. Under point. such circumstances, the EU has become a proxy for the My point is simply that we have seen a gradual public’s wider anger about good services and housing, extension of the powers of the European Union. That is and in doing so it has provided fertile territory for a lot just one of the many reasons why an increasing number of myths about the EU. I do not for one moment doubt 1219 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1220

[Dame Tessa Jowell] Neil Parish: Does my hon. Friend agree that when we had the referendum in 1975, it was about a common the anger—indeed, I have confronted it—in some parts market? Now we have a European political union. of our country about the impact of too much migration Brussels has seized power. The last Labour Government too quickly, and the sense of broader insecurity. People gave away our rebate and got nothing for it, so the feel that their living standards are falling. They are people should have a say. falling, but that is a result of decisions by this UK Government, not decisions by Europe. Fiona Bruce: Absolutely right. There is a growing The Bill is principally about managing the Conservative frustration on the part of the people, which is borne out party, and evidence suggests that for the majority of of years of them not being adequately communicated right hon. and hon. Members in that party it is about with or informed about the implications of what was exit, not renegotiation in Europe. The real tragedy is happening in the EU institutions. That has resulted in that renegotiation is possible, is needed, and is always to our public wanting this say. be achieved, but that is not done by saying one thing at My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South was home and a different thing in the Council of Ministers. quite right that the British people want a say, but I If the Prime Minister is serious about renegotiation, he believe that they also want an informed say. Many of must spend time going round the capitals of Europe them feel they have a gut instinct of how they would and visiting his counterparts, building trust and securing vote, but they know that this is such a serious issue and the support of other European leaders for his case for such a major constitutional decision that they must change. That is what will achieve change in Europe. have an opportunity to deliberate, debate and discuss There is, of course, an agenda for reform, which the complex issues around it. Those of us who are today Labour would support wholeheartedly and—I hope—on putting forward this proposal for a referendum are a cross-party basis, if only the Conservative party would saying that we trust the British people to discuss such demonstrate that it is serious about reform rather than complex issues and then come to the right decision. exit. Reform of the EU budget, the appointment of an Anyone who opposes this referendum is saying, “We EU commissioner for growth, reforming transitional don’t trust the British public to discuss issues of this arrangements to address issues such as too much migration complexity and detail.” too quickly, more powers delegated to national Parliaments—those are all parts of an agenda for reform Jim Dowd: If letting the people have their say is so that I am sure we could share. important, why is it that of all the Conservative Governments who have ever existed, only one—this For those of us among my right hon. and hon. one, forced by the Liberals to offer a referendum on the colleagues who represent constituencies in London, there alternative vote—have ever given the people of Britain is also particular concern about the impact on London a referendum on anything? Devolution, regional of the growing uncertainty, which risks unseating us as government, the Mayor of London—all were from a the economy that is top of the league among beneficiaries Labour Government. The Tories have never given anybody of foreign direct investment. Underpinning and essential a referendum on anything; now they are suddenly to that continued primacy is stability and certainty. The enthusiasts. way in which this debate is being conducted, in the interests of the Conservative party, is putting that at risk. Fiona Bruce: The previous Labour Government had plenty of opportunities to grant a referendum on this In conclusion, I think this captures very well the issue, but they did not do so. position on the Opposition Benches: “the problem with an in/out referendum is it actually only gives Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Does people those two choices: you can either stay in with all the status the hon. Lady not find it strange that the last Labour quo, or you…get out. Most people in Britain, I think, want a Government had 13 years to renegotiate, if they believed government that stands up and fights for them in Europe, and gets the things we want in Europe, that changes some of the in that renegotiation, and present it to the British people, relationship”. yet did not do so? Labour has constantly, and to this day, denied, the British people a say in their future in Those, Madam Deputy Speaker, are the words of the Europe. Prime Minister, less than a year ago. Look how he has flip-flopped and been bullied by his party, letting down the British people. Fiona Bruce: The hon. Gentleman is right. If passed, the Bill will trigger a debate throughout the nation and 12.31 pm give the British public an opportunity to make that informed decision. The debate has already started in Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Thank you for calling this Chamber today. Millions of people across the country me, Madam Deputy Speaker; I will be brief. will be watching and listening, and will have heard I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton valuable and critical contributions, such as the speech South (James Wharton) for proposing this Bill and I from the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). strongly support him. I was interested when he said that he was barely a twinkle in his mother’s eye when the Jim Shannon: On the subject of giving people choice, original votes were cast on our relationship with the the fishing industry has felt the brunt of EU legislation EU, because I am probably about his mother’s age. We and red tape—more so than other sectors. As European therefore have two generations of voters represented in bureaucracy continues to strangle and choke the fishing this House who have never had a say on our relationship industry, my constituents in Strangford, particularly in with the EU, and it is about time the British people had the fishing port of Portavogie, will want the chance to one. say no in a referendum—this is what we want to see. 1221 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1222

Fiona Bruce: As ever, the hon. Gentleman makes a Neil Parish: Is the right hon. Gentleman convinced valuable contribution. It is under this Government that that he will be able to persuade his colleagues on the we have seen fish discards eliminated. Opposition Front Bench, and the Leader of the Opposition, to support a referendum? Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that the Labour party, which continually Keith Vaz: Absolutely not. I am merely a humble complains about uncertainty, should support a referendum, Back Bencher. We need to do our best to persuade and should be asking for it to be brought even further those on the Front Bench that this is in the interests not forward so that that uncertainty can be removed quickly? only of the Labour party but, primarily, of the country. The shadow Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend Fiona Bruce: Another valid point, but I can also see the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South the merit of the British people having the time, up to (Mr Alexander), spoke very well this morning, but we 2017, to digest and discuss these issues. still need to convince him that we need to go one step Other hon. Members want to speak, so I will close further. After all, progress has been made. Labour my remarks. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member voted for a reduction in the EU budget and against the for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), who is chair of amendment to the Queen’s Speech, and we are going to the all-party group for a European referendum. I am a abstain today, so we are on the way; we are moving in long-standing member, as is my hon. Friend the Member the direction that the hon. Gentleman wants us to move for Stockton South. My hon. Friend the Member for in, and I hope that we will get there in the end. Basildon and Billericay has done tremendous and sterling work in this House and beyond in pressing and making Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): Does the right the case for an EU referendum, which the British people hon. Gentleman not agree that this goes to the heart of deserve. democracy, when so many people are crying out for a referendum and there is a great disconnect between politics and the electorate that needs healing? Giving 12.36 pm the electorate a referendum, as we want to do, will help that process. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): May I begin by joining other right hon. and hon. Members in congratulating the hon. Member for Stockton South Keith Vaz: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. The fact (James Wharton) on the terrific achievement of being is that we need to reconnect by allowing people to have first in the ballot to propose a private Member’s Bill on their say. the Floor of the House and on filling the Chamber? I am very surprised that the Liberal Democrats have This has been a remarkable week for him. Not only has changed their view—[HON.MEMBERS: “Why?”] Well, I he introduced the Bill, but his local restaurant, Raj am. I learned most of my community politics from the Bari, came third in the Tiffin cup final. That is a terrific Liberal Democrats when I stood in Richmond many achievement, one that I am sure he will celebrate with years ago, and I know that they are committed to them tonight when he gets back to Stockton. allowing people to have their say in places like Richmond This has been a remarkable debate in which we have and Kingston. I am therefore surprised that they have heard some interesting facts. The hon. Member for changed their mind on this matter. Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) was outed as a member of Unite by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Zac Goldsmith: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for South West (Mr Davidson), and then managed to resign giving way. We have a great deal in common, as he has within moments of being outed. The hon. Member for just said. Does he agree that this is not just a matter of Congleton (Fiona Bruce) told us that she is old enough this House trusting the people with a decision on this to be the mother of the hon. Member for Stockton issue, and that it is even more a case of providing the South. I am surprised that she did not offer to be his people with a reason to trust the House? It works both mother, bearing in mind his current popularity. ways, and there could not be a more important time to demonstrate both aspects of that than now. I hope to make a short contribution. Many right hon. and hon. Members wish to speak, and some of us would like to get back to our constituencies some time Keith Vaz: I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. today. Friday mornings will never be the same again for We must give the whole debate over from this House. me. I want to say how much I support the idea, and have We all have an important role to play in discussing and supported the idea for some time, of the British people scrutinising the European Union, but at the end of the being allowed to have their say on membership of the day, the matter must go to the British people. European Union. I agree with the many hon. Members My second point is on the need for reform. I hope who have said that this is an issue of trust. I do not that the hon. Member for Stockton South will be willing think that political parties should feel they cannot trust to consider any amendments that I hope Labour will the British people on this important issue, which has table in Committee, and that he will look at the whole been the dominant issue of the past 30 to 40 years. The issue of reform. I do not believe that the timetable the constant debates in the House and in the country, and Prime Minister has set out is achievable. I agree with the fact that the issue has seized the consciousness of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich the British people, mean that at some stage we have to and West Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell) said about put it to the British people. I believe that this should be this. The reform process will take a long time. Should done sooner rather than later. We should do it now, if the Prime Minister get re-elected and become Prime we can; if not now, then certainly at the time of the next Minister again, his timetable of two years between 2015 general election. and 2017 will, frankly, not be long enough. 1223 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1224

[Keith Vaz] I think that the major political parties should be publishing their manifestos for reform. Frankly, we do The issues in the European Union exist at the moment, not know what they are. I think we should be very clear and there is a need for reform of a whole range of about what we want to change about the European policies. We could start that process now. There is no Union—and we can put that into operation now rather reason why British Ministers going to summit meetings than having to wait. and having discussions with their European Union My final point is that I hope nobody votes against counterparts—the Minister for Europe goes to General this private Member’s Bill. I hope that it will go through Affairs Council meetings every month to discuss these unanimously and that nobody will seek to divide the matters with his counterpart Ministers for Europe, for House. That would send a powerful message that all example—should not start the reform agenda immediately, parties believe that there is a case for the British people rather than waiting until after the next general election. to make a decision. If we do that, it will mean that people will trust us even more than they do at the Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): The right moment. hon. Gentleman is making an interesting point. I knew that those were his opinions because I have read them on many occasions. Does he agree that, if we have a referendum and if we are going to engage properly with 12.46 pm the people, we must know what the position is? There Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): This has been a must be a reformed European Union, or we withdraw. thought-provoking debate—and, in some places, just If we had the referendum much earlier, people would provoking! I would say to the hon. Member for Glasgow simply be in the dark. South West (Mr Davidson) that I am afraid my Unite membership card has suffered irreparable damage during Keith Vaz: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that the course of this debate, but I thank him for his intervention. Actually, I think the British people know graphic advice on what I should now do with it. After the issues now. They understand the issues that confront recent events in Falkirk, I suspect there might be a few Europe, and I am not sure that a public education other people taking very similar advice. campaign is what they need, as long as we are committed to reform, and to changing the way in which the European It is good to see the House so full on a Friday. I Union operates. There is much that we need to change gather that it has something to do with the provision of on the justice and home affairs agenda, for example, hog roast by the Prime Minister last night. One participant including measures on the European arrest warrant and told me that burgers were being served by him, but they on the way in which countries such as Greece have to were a little bit rare. Perhaps that explains why so many deal with illegal migration. There are so many other left the Chamber so fast after the Foreign Secretary’s areas that we need to look at. We can be part of that speech! process as we go along within the European Union; we As a Liberal Democrat, I like referendums—and we do not need to have a separate set of negotiations. The have been consistent supporters of them. We supported only way, in my view, that we can do this is to put the all the referendums on Scotland, Wales and Northern matter to the EU now. Ireland. We were quite happy with the referendum on the European Community in 1975, and we even went Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): along with the referendum on AV—the alternative vote Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? system—although we obviously cannot win them all. At the time of the Lisbon treaty, we alone supported an Keith Vaz: Yes, but many Members want to speak, so in/out referendum for this country—not at four years’ I give way for the last time. remove, not for some future Parliament, but at that time. We got absolutely no support from the Conservative Tim Loughton: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman party at that stage. and I praise him for the candour of his approach to this debate. We all agree that reform is needed, but the I am afraid that that was the completely consistent British public need to be sure that sufficient reform is position through to the general election of 2010, and it going to take place if we are to stay within the EU. Does is more or less our position now. The Deputy Prime he agree that having a referendum after the renegotiation Minister has set out our position, the only difference has happened will absolutely crystallise in the minds of being that in the meantime we have passed the European the rest of the EU member states the fact that we are Union Act 2011, which rather watered down the Liberal absolutely serious that the current position is just Democrat commitment to an in/out referendum and unsustainable? adopted—[Interruption.] Conservative Members may laugh, but they have obviously not read their own Keith Vaz: I think the member states know that the manifesto of 2010. What is in the European Union Act current situation is unsustainable and that they understand 2011 is precisely the basis on which Conservative Members that we want change. The Prime Minister has made that fought the last general election, which was the idea that clear every time he goes to a summit meeting of the there should be a trigger relating to the transfer of European Union. I do not know whether the Minister power. The Conservative manifesto stated that in the for Europe has a row with his colleagues every time he event of a transfer of power from the British level to the goes to the General Affairs meetings, but the fact is that European level, a referendum on that transfer would be the Prime Minister always comes back to this House to held. That is exactly what went into the European make his statement after a European summit and says Union Act in 2011. We will quite happily use that to that he has confronted colleagues so that they know trigger—that is fine—but we are still committed to an where Britain stands. in/out referendum, and I am still going to argue for one. 1225 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1226

Neil Parish: If the hon. Gentleman is so keen on carefully, we can see that Liberal Democrats would talking about Liberal Democrat policy on a former disagree with very little of what he actually wanted to referendum, why is he not supporting us today? I also change in Europe. Indeed, we would enthusiastically congratulate him on being the only one of an endangered support much of the reform agenda. We have gone species here in the Chamber today. along with Conservative colleagues in supporting the Government’s review of the balance of competences. I Martin Horwood: I was not, in fact, the only Liberal think that is a very important process, and I think it is Democrat Member here, and my colleagues are probably an absolutely correct one to carry out, but I also think it focused on jobs, A and E departments, the good deal we was ill-judged to attach a time bomb to all this and say are delivering for pensioners and promoting employment that unless we get what we want we will do this or that, and economic prosperity in their constituencies, rather and to try to negotiate on a unilateral basis. It is important than spending an entire day banging on about Europe. I now to try to achieve these reforms on a multilateral am reassured that so many Conservative Members are basis by co-operation with other European partners. so confident that all the jobs are provided and all the A I was explaining some of the political background of and E departments are safe and no green spaces need the Conservative party’s position. In the 1990s John Major protecting that they are willing to spend an entire day was in favour of a referendum, but only on membership here talking about the minutiae of European referendums. of the euro. By 2001, that had changed and then we had I am equally confident that at one stage we had the an evolution of a policy that was really about— Prime Minister, the Chancellor, the Foreign Secretary and, I think, the Secretary of State for Work and Tim Loughton rose— Pensions all in the Chamber for this debate, so I assume the Deputy Prime Minister must have been busy running Martin Horwood: I had better not give way repeatedly, the country at that point. but I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman for one final The consistent position the Liberal Democrats have time. taken is to be in favour of an in/out referendum either at a time of major, fundamental treaty change or at a time of Tim Loughton: I am sorry that the leader of the hon. a transfer of power, which also has to happen under treaty Gentleman’s party was not able to flip a few lentil provisions. That is the consistent position we have taken, burgers last night to entice more of his colleagues to and that is the position we still take today. [Interruption.] take part in this important debate. Will he just clarify Does the hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll his position? In the highly unlikely event that we have a Murray) want to point out when we have said anything Liberal Democrat Government after the next election, different? She does not; I thought as much. and this Bill, as is most likely, has been passed in this The Conservative party, by contrast, has taken a Parliament, would they abolish the undertakings that bewildering variety of positions on referendums. I think this Bill would give to tie us to a referendum, and thus it was the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen give the British people a say at last? Pound), who is no longer in his place, who pointed out that Margaret Thatcher opposed the original European Martin Horwood: I have already spelled out very referendum and she quoted Clement Attlee saying clearly our position, which is exactly the same one as we referendums were a device of demagogues and dictators. took at the time of the Lisbon treaty and of the last At that point she was a supporter of European Union election: at a time of treaty change, fundamental change membership, which at that stage was already identified or a transfer of power from the British to the European as a discussion about social and political union as well level, we would want an in/out referendum, and we as about access to an economic common market. That would legislate to make that possible in the event of our is clear from the literature produced in that referendum having a majority in Parliament. campaign. It talks about the new regional fund, the The Conservative position has flip-flopped dramatically. social fund, bringing the peoples of Europe closer together The position in the Conservative manifesto was enacted and promoting peace and freedom—so even the defence in the European Union Act 2011, yet within a year and and security aspects of the EU’s work were already a few months the Prime Minister was expounding a being debated. Margaret Thatcher said that for the completely different position. Even that has changed Labour party the proposal of a referendum was between his speech and this Bill, because the question “a tactical device to get over a split in their own party.”—[Official has changed from whether to remain in the European Report, 11 March 1975; Vol. 888, c. 306.] Union to whether to be in the European Union. I think history might be repeating itself now. [Interruption.]

Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I am grateful to Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Many my hon. Friend, who is my neighbour, for giving way. conversations are going on. I know that not many He talks about history repeating itself. Some of us people may be agreeing with Mr Horwood, but I would remember very clearly that when the Prime Minister certainly like to hear what he has to say. stood up and announced he was going to renegotiate the EU budget so that it was cut, one of my hon. Martin Horwood: I am very grateful, Mr Deputy Friend’s distinguished colleagues described that as being Speaker. The chances of the Conservative party getting an inconceivable act. Does he believe it would be as far as 2017 without changing its policy again are inconceivable to renegotiate anything with Europe? pretty slim. Let me reinforce that point. Only 19 months ago, the Prime Minister said: Martin Horwood: The point is that we can be in “That, for me, in a parliamentary democracy, is the right use of favour of reform, but not necessarily make that conditional a referendum. However, as we are not signing a treaty, I think that on referendums. If we read the Prime Minister’s speech the whole issue of a referendum does not arise.” 1227 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1228

[Martin Horwood] however, as most of my time has been taken up responding to interventions from his colleagues, so perhaps he He continued by saying that should encourage them to be a little quieter. “there is a role for referendums in a parliamentary democracy, The problems continue. The uncertainty that the Bill but that comes at the moment when a Government or a Parliament creates for business is clear, even if we make a number proposes to give up power, rather than at other times.”—[Official of big assumptions about the referendum process: first, Report, 12 December 2011; Vol. 537, c. 535-549.] that the Conservative Front Bench will not change its That is precisely the Liberal Democrat position and has position between now and 2017, but having changed it been for some time. three times in two years, that is a big assumption; We are not going to oppose this Bill, but we are not secondly, that the timetable for the referendum does not content to support it because there is a long list of have to be changed in any case, although we may find in problems with it. Legislation already in force—the Political 2017 that we are in the middle of a renegotiation or Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000—is supposed treaty change process resulting from changes in the to lay down the procedure under which we hold referendums eurozone, and at such a juncture, it would be nonsense and, for example, the role of the Electoral Commission to hold a referendum, as another referendum might be in helping to determine the question. This Bill is pre-empting provoked in only a matter of months or years, so we any decision by the Electoral Commission and it does would not really know what we were voting for in those not even appear to comply or be consistent with the circumstances; and finally, if the political landscape 2000 Act. I do not know whether the draftsmen had had not completely changed in any case we might have a forgotten that that Act existed. different Government with different priorities and there Then there is the question of the franchise, which has might be a recovery in the European economy, and we also been referred to— may find votes for the UK Independence party subsiding and that Europe is not quite such a big priority—it is not a terribly big priority for most voters according to Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Will the hon. existing polls—so the idea of spending yet more hundreds Gentleman give way? of hours of parliamentary time banging on about Europe might not seem quite as appealing. Martin Horwood: I do not think I had better. I am really looking forward to seeing the variety of different Even if all of that is true, and we move towards a Conservative positions being expounded in the remainder referendum by 2017, that still condemns British business of the debate, and if I give way to everybody— and British jobs to four years of uncertainty—what a [Interruption.] Somebody is telling me to keep it short, message to send to investors. The CBI is quoted in and I think that the best way to do that is not to give the Independent newspaper, i, this morning, and way on every point. raises the problem of the uncertainty caused for British business: The Bill also needs to deal with a problem relating to the franchise. Some 1.4 million British citizens reside “British businesses don’t want to find themselves at the margins elsewhere than in the UK, but according to the terms of of the world’s largest trading bloc operating under market rules over which they have no influence.” the Bill the referendum will be based on the Westminster franchise. As far as I can tell, that has only about 19,000 That is the prospect that we are going to live with, registered overseas voters, so more than 1 million Britons, unresolved, apparently for up to four years. That is one whose lives will be fundamentally affected by this change— of the problems with the Bill. This morning, The Daily they are British passport holders resident in other parts Telegraph, I think, quoted the leader of the Norwegian of the EU—will be disfranchised in this referendum. By Conservative party, who pointed out that the supposed this formula, the Bill will give votes to Cypriot and solution of the UK trying to have a status more or less Maltese citizens living in this country, because under equivalent to Norway’s was worse than being in the EU. the Westminster franchise Commonwealth citizens have Norway pays hundreds of billions of euros to the the vote, but it will not give the vote to French, Italian European Union for access to the single European or German citizens. So there are a lot of inconsistencies, market, and finds out about the rules through so-called and this issue has not been debated at all so far. fax democracy. The House of Commons Library briefing also raised There are many, many problems with the Bill, which the question of whether or not the Bill is even legally does not really resolve the main question. It is, as we all binding. Even the hon. Member for Stockton South (James really know—rather like Harold Wilson’s Bill in the Wharton) has conceded that this parliamentary vote 1970s—about papering over the cracks in the Conservative would not bind its successor Parliament and further party itself. It will not really work. The Prime Minister parliamentary votes, probably on secondary legislation, has spelled out a reasonably modest set of ambitions would be required to give effect to the referendum in for renegotiation that will never satisfy many of his any case. Back Benchers, who clearly want to use a much more ambitious and unilateral agenda for negotiation as Mr Baron: The hon. Gentleman has now made one of something that will provide them with an excuse to the longest speeches. May I ask him, with all due campaign for exit. respect: could he please cut it short, if only because a UK businesses have access to free trade in the world’s long list of Members also wish to speak? largest single market, worth nearly £11 trillion in gross domestic product, with over 500 million consumers. Martin Horwood: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman One in 10 British jobs are linked to the single market. for his advice, which should probably have come from Some £495 billion-worth of British trade is with other the Chair rather than him. There is a slight problem, EU member states. To put that in jeopardy— 1229 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1230

Mr Baron: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In the argument against those who say we do not With the greatest respect, would you remind Members need a referendum, three or four reasons have been that this is a debate about the principle of a referendum, given for why we need a referendum. One is uncertainty. not the relative merits of being in or out of the EU? That is the most perverse reason. There is uncertainty because 80% of the British people want a referendum Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I can see and they are surprised that we cannot come to a conclusion frustrations building up in the Chamber. I think that about when that referendum should be and what the Mr Horwood is trying to give us an encompassing view question should be. The debate would not go away and of why the referendum may be good or bad. I am sure the uncertainty would not decrease if we opposed the that even he recognises that a lot of people wish to Bill today. speak, and hopefully we can move on. In the meantime, The second reason given, which is related to the it is Martin Horwood. uncertainty argument, is that British business is opposed to a referendum and jobs would go. That would be a Martin Horwood: Thank you very much, Mr Deputy more compelling case if I had not heard exactly those Speaker. I shall draw my remarks to a close. Even if arguments about joining the euro—that all the car hon. Members do not listen to me, and even if they do factories would go if we did not join the euro. not listen to the leader of the Norwegian Conservative party, or even the CBI, perhaps they should just listen Kelvin Hopkins: Will my hon. Friend give way? to what the Prime Minister himself said in that speech. In the end he moved on to the main question, which is Graham Stringer: I will give way briefly and only this whether in an in/out referendum we would be campaigning time. to stay in or out. The Prime Minister said: “Of course Britain could make her own way in the world, Kelvin Hopkins: I thank my hon. Friend. The economic outside the EU, if we chose to do so. So could any other Member arguments that I have heard today are nonsense. We State. But the question we will have to ask ourselves is this: is that have a gigantic trade deficit with the rest of the European the very best future for our country?” Union, equivalent to a million jobs. We must do something He went on: about it and we will not do that simply by giving in to the European Union. “Continued access to the Single Market is vital for British businesses and British jobs...being part of the Single Market has been key to that success...There are some who suggest we could Graham Stringer: I agree. The arguments lack turn ourselves into Norway or Switzerland—with access to the quantification—that would be one way of putting it. single market but outside the EU. But would that really be in our On the notion that the European Union is an unalloyed best interests? good idea for jobs, have people not been watching what I admire those countries and they are friends of ours—but the euro is doing not just to those countries that are in they are very different from us. Norway sits on the biggest energy the euro, which are getting into a competitive deflationary reserves in Europe, and has a sovereign wealth fund of over situation, but to countries such as ours which trade with 500 billion euros. And while Norway is part of the single market—and Europe? Hundreds of thousands and millions of jobs pays for the principle—it has no say at all in setting its rules: it just are being destroyed by the European Union. It is not has to implement its directives.” helpful to our economy. A referendum would be the The Prime Minister obviously is not really willing to start of saying to the European Union, “This cannot risk millions of British jobs by voting no. This is a carry on. You are damaging the whole of the European delaying tactic to get us past the next election. The Union’s economy.” Liberal Democrats are not willing to risk millions of British jobs by voting no. Europe means jobs, and we Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): Will should not put those jobs in jeopardy. my hon. Friend give way?

Graham Stringer: No. A lot of people want to speak. 1.5 pm I will vote for the Bill today. It is not a perfect Bill. I Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): hope that it can be amended to bring the date forward, There have been many articulate and clever speeches which would help with uncertainty. One reason for that during this debate. I exclude the last speech from that. is that whatever good motives people might have to It seems to me a straightforward matter. This House, renegotiate our position within the European Union, by signing various treaties, has taken away from the that is not possible. Most of the problems that we have British people the right to throw out the rascals who are with the European Union are enshrined in the treaties. making their laws. It is time, after those treaties, that the Do hon. Members really think that Ireland, Germany, people were given a chance to have that say in a referendum. Italy and the newer members of the EU, many of whom My party’s position on a referendum can, I hope, be have to have referendums before they can take a decision improved. We can have no principled objections to a on the constitution, will vote to change the treaty of referendum: it was the Labour party that first gave the Rome, or of Lisbon, Nice, Amsterdam, Maastricht, or people the chance to vote on the then EEC. We said in any of the others? Many of the powers that have gone our 2005 manifesto that people would have a vote on the from this Chamber have gone through those treaties. I European constitution. Unfortunately, when the name do not believe that renegotiation is possible. of that constitution was changed to the Lisbon treaty, Some hon. Members have said that the electorates the vote was denied them. That was a huge mistake and and leadership of other European countries want changes is one of the reasons why the people of this country similar to those that we want. I simply do not believe have lost trust. that. Many European Union countries are happy with 1231 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1232

[Graham Stringer] Gordon Henderson: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, but I do not want to take any interventions. ever-closer union, for quite valid reasons. Many of Since 1975, Britain’s relationship with Europe has them have been through a period of fascism or communism, changed beyond all recognition, and in a way that no or some lack of democracy, and, rightly or wrongly, one in this country could have envisaged. Had I known they see the European Union as protecting them against then that Britain was embarking on a 38-year journey that. They do not see their future in the way that we do of political integration, I would sooner have cut off my as a trading nation. The trade of 90% of EU countries right arm than vote yes. I am sure that many other is within the EU. Only 50% of this country’s trade, a people of my generation feel the same way. It is declining amount, is with the European Union. inconceivable that only 30 years after the end of the A great deal more could be said on this issue, but it is second world war, the British people would have willingly fundamental to the relationship between this House embarked on a programme to hand over swathes of and the people of this country that they are given a their hard-won sovereignty to another state, and let us chance to vote. The Bill can be improved. They will be clear: that is what the European Union aspires to be. eventually get a vote, one way or the other, during the next four or five years. We might as well do it willingly Mr Redwood: Will my hon. Friend give way? and thoughtfully. Several hon. Members rose— Gordon Henderson: I am sorry, but I am not going to give way at all. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. If we have very short speeches, most hon. Members will be We have not had a referendum on our relationship able to speak. with the EU since 1975, which is why, sadly, many people feel betrayed. In turn, that is why anger at, 1.12 pm resentment towards and distrust of politicians is growing. People in my constituency feel ignored by, and disengaged Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): from, those they consider to be the political elite in this There are a number of good reasons why we should remain country.People in Sittingbourne and Sheppey are frustrated members of the European Union, and there are more that even though all three major parties have promised reasons why we should not. But as a number of hon. referendums at one time or another, they have been Members have said, we are not here to discuss those; we denied another referendum for over 30 years. They have are here to discuss the referendum. This debate is about heard enough promises; what they want is action. They whether we should allow the British public to decide want an in/out referendum, and they want it as soon as once and for all whether we should remain members. possible. If this House delivers that referendum, we will In many ways it saddens me that the Bill has been have gone some way towards winning back the public’s introduced. Under normal circumstances, political parties trust and engagement. set out their policies at election time, and if elected are I support a referendum not because I believe that it is expected to deliver those policies. But with Europe it is a hobby-horse of those of us on the centre-right in this different, because the British public simply no longer House, but because I believe that it is in tune with the trust politicians to deliver on their promises. The public views of the majority of the British people. It is certainly are cynical, and rightly so. The Bill is designed to show the view of the majority in Sittingbourne and Sheppey. that on this occasion the Conservative party really does Support for a referendum is based not on right-wing mean business and will deliver on its promise to hold an ideology, but on common ideology. It is the ideology of in/out referendum in 2017 if it is elected. the great British public. It is the ideology of the majority But why are the British public so cynical? It is because of my constituents and those of many other right hon. they have been denied a say for so long. It is worth and hon. Members. Let me be truthful: in an ideal remembering that when Britain joined the European world, I would like a referendum as soon as possible, Economic Community in 1972, the British people were preferably at the time of the next general election, but I not consulted. In 1993, the Maastricht treaty changed am realistic enough to know that is unlikely to happen, the name of the EEC to the European Union. As my so a guaranteed referendum in 2017 is the next best hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) reminded thing, which is why I will be supporting the Bill. us earlier, that represented not just a superficial name change, but a fundamental change in the whole entity of the European beast. The British people were not asked 1.17 pm their opinion in a referendum. During the Labour party’s 13 years in government, the treaties of Amsterdam, Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): Nice and Lisbon were all ratified. The British people Napoleon said, “When you see your enemy tearing were not asked their opinion in a referendum, despite himself apart, don’t interrupt him.” Therefore, it is with each of those treaties seeing more powers transferred to some reluctance that I am here today, given that one of the EU. the most powerful points that has been made is that the It is true that in 1975 there was a referendum to whole reason we need this Bill is because the Conservative determine whether Britain should remain in the EEC. party does not trust its own Prime Minister to implement Like many other people I voted yes, believing that legislation after the next general election. Let us be clear Britain had joined an intergovernmental, free-market about that. Also, if anyone doubts my credentials on trading bloc. But then I was young and naive in 1975. demanding a referendum, I should explain that I think I was almost threatened with being thrown out of the David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Will the hon. Labour party in 2003-04 when I campaigned for one, so Gentleman give way? I will take no lessons from anyone on that. 1233 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1234

I think that a referendum is necessary, and with well, even when representing a marginal seat. Many regard to the timing, we will give people a meaningful commentators do not realise that although Europe, as a choice. That takes me to one subject that has not been subject on its own, may rank only 10th or 12th in mentioned so far: the existence of the euro and the euro people’s order of preferences, it is very much entwined crisis. There are developments taking place in the European with our conversations about the economy or immigration. Union at the moment that to all intents and purposes That is a fact, as we know when we knock on the doors already leave Britain out, because if we have no intention in our constituencies. of joining the single currency, the greater and deeper The Bill is absolutely right and long overdue. As integration that will be required by those member states many hon. Members have said, the public have been that are part of it will marginalise Britain and push us waiting for too long to express their view on whether to a level where we will have to renegotiate our relationship the UK should remain a member of the EU, because with the new European framework. the EU has fundamentally changed since we first joined That takes me to another very important point. I it in 1973. We were told then that the emphasis was on think that this is a wretched little Bill—it is pathetic that free trade, but it has since morphed, bit by bit, into one the Prime Minister could not introduce his own Bill— of ever-closer political union—a process that has resulted, notwithstanding the absolutely brilliant speech from over a period of time, in the salami-slicing of our the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton). sovereignty. It is a private Member’s Bill that packed the House, and the way he responded was brilliant. It puts me in mind David Simpson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? of Graham Greene’s “The Power and the Glory”, with the whisky priest and the question of whether an impure messenger can deliver a pure message. Mr Baron: I am going to crack on and be quick. I want to speak for just a couple of minutes because I am Mr Frank Field: Or the opposite. conscious that other Members want to speak as well. I hope the hon. Gentleman will forgive me. Ms Stuart: In this case it is the opposite. On this The EU is now seen as too meddlesome in our occasion, I think that the pure messenger should be everyday lives, too burdensome for our businesses, especially allowed to go in peace on his battle and to take his small and medium-sized enterprises, and too costly for message forward. I will not vote against the Bill. In a our taxpayers. Yet the political establishment in this sense, I wish him well. As for the House, I wish to make country has, in essence, closed ranks over the past one observation. 30 years and denied the people their say. That is fundamentally wrong. They have not had a genuine Mr Redwood: Will the hon. Lady give way? choice about this at any of the general elections of the past 30 years or so. This arrogant and somewhat Ms Stuart: Yes. condescending approach by the political elite has not gone unnoticed by the electorate. I therefore congratulate Mr Redwood: I am grateful to the hon. Lady, who has the Prime Minister on being the first political leader to great credentials. Does she agree that any future offer an in/out referendum; I am convinced that other Government will have to negotiate a new relationship leaders will follow suit. I also thank him for listening to because of the power of the euro and its impulsion his Back Benchers, the party faithful, and, most importantly, towards federalism? the country as a whole in embracing the idea of a referendum in the next Parliament and legislation in Ms Stuart: Yes, they will. this one. This party has moved closer to the electorate, That takes me on to the one thought that I want and it is now up to the other parties to decide whether people to take away with them, which seems to have they are going to step up to the plate. been forgotten. We have slipped into basing this on Legislation is terribly important because it is more whether we are going to vote for or against, but we will believable than election manifesto promises. There is a have plenty of time to make our decision on that. In deep public scepticism when people hear promises being debating the arguments for and against a referendum, made by politicians about the EU, because too many what if we were to substitute the words “general election”? have been broken in the past. They remember Blair’s Who in this place would stand here and say, “We can’t promises on the EU constitution and Lisbon, when a possibly have a general election—it would be really bad referendum never materialised. They remember—or are for the economy, it would be really costly, it would constantly reminded, I should say—of Liberal Democrat affect business.” Every so often in the democratic process promises at every general election on the need for a real we have general elections, and we must apply the same referendum, which, strangely, never materialise even principle to something as significant as this. We have when they share power. reached the point when people will have to be asked, and we cannot duck it. Martin Horwood rose—

1.20 pm Mr Baron: No, I have spoken for too long already. Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): I add In conclusion, I take issue with the right hon. Member my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham), who is no Stockton South (James Wharton) on securing this Bill. longer in his place. He claimed that, because I had He has consulted widely on the Bill’s make-up, which suggested that this historic pledge by the Prime Minister has done him and it credit. I am sure that he will prove was unbelievable—I have great respect for the hon. that we can address the issue of Europe and still do Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), but I 1235 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1236

[Mr Baron] whether we should have a referendum or not. We clearly are going to have one, so we now have some very serious am afraid she was absolutely wrong about this—I was work to do. somehow criticising the Prime Minister. Let me make it I end by echoing what the hon. Member for Richmond absolutely clear for the record that, having congratulated Park (Zac Goldsmith) said—I hope he has a large the Prime Minister on his January speech, I then went majority; otherwise I will be accused of helping him, on to say: too—namely that this is a matter not just of us trusting “However, where the Prime Minister’s pledge falls down is its the British voters, but of the possibility of them trusting believability. British voters are deeply sceptical of politicians us a little bit more in return, and my God, we are in making promises on Europe: too many have been broken in the need of that. past. People bitterly recall Labour’s broken promise…on the EU Constitution…and they also remember…the Liberal Democrats’ 1.28 pm 2010 Election manifesto. Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): It is an honour to follow Passing paving legislation in this parliament for a referendum the distinguished right hon. Member for Birkenhead in the next would be a concrete way of demonstrating serious (Mr Field), with whom I agree. I also add my intent.” congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for That was what I said in the article that the right hon. Stockton South (James Wharton) on proposing the Bill Gentleman took out of all context. and on his box-office performance in his opening speech. This is an issue not of trust between the Prime If anyone in the Chamber has any doubt, he has my full Minister and his Back Benchers—I have no doubt we support and I will back the Bill from beginning to end. will get an in/out referendum in 2017—but of trust My constituents have been waiting for a referendum on between politicians in general and the electorate, for this issue for far too long. understandable reasons given our lamentable record in The Bill gives the British public an important opportunity keeping good our promises. to have their say on how this country has been treated This brings us to the nub of the issue. What will by Europe and by British Governments over the past Labour and the Liberals do? Will they support this Bill? 40 years. During that time, it is clear that more powers Will they honour past promises to the electorate? Will and far too much public money have been surrendered they allow the electorate their say, or are they still stuck to Brussels. This Parliament’s sovereignty has been eroded in the mindset of the previous political establishment, decade after decade just to satisfy the demands of which could not trust the electorate with this issue? Europe’s political elite, who follow their dogmatic desire Time will tell, but I say this to them: ignore the electorate for ever-closer union, rather than putting the interests at your peril. I suggest that they do what is best for the of our country and hard-pressed taxpayers first. Money country and I predict that the Labour party in particular has been squandered on wasteful and expensive initiatives will change its position on this issue before the next and billions have been ploughed into the organisation general election. year on year. Let us be clear that the Bill is about giving a referendum and a say to the British public. For far too long, our 1.26 pm taxpayers have been pillaged and hard-pressed families and businesses across the country have been subjected Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): I, like my hon. Friend to far too much regulation and red tape by the European the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), Union. It is not just costs, but laws that have been congratulate the hon. Member for Stockton South (James imposed on us. My hon. Friend the Member for Basildon Wharton) on proposing the Bill. I have been in the and Billericay (Mr Baron) spoke about the immigration House for a number of decades and if I could give a rules that have been imposed on us. We have not had a speech as good as he gave today I would be pleased. To say. It is about time that we trusted the British public. do it in almost his maiden speech was simply stunning, and to have had the Prime Minister sitting on the Front As well as enabling us to debate the future of our Bench listening to his gifts of delivery cannot have done relationship with the EU, the Bill serves as a test of how his future career any harm whatsoever. the political parties in this country treat the public. On the one hand, the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats have conspired to cheat the British public out of the Karl Turner: Three and a half million jobs, Frank. referendum that was promised on the Lisbon treaty. Those parties would surrender more powers to Brussels Mr Field: That sort of intervention is pathetic. I and adopt the euro. However, they prefer to abstain on think it is quite reasonable to congratulate the hon. the Bill and call it a stunt than to engage the public in a Member for Stockton South. If we think that we can true democratic process by giving them a say. We live in win elections by not recognising the truth and paying an era when the public are given referendums on local tribute to people, our time in politics is wasted. neighbourhood plans, whether to adopt elected mayors I have one point to make, which is to echo what my and whether the parliamentary voting system should be right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith changed, so frankly it is a scandal that the Labour party Vaz) said. We are going to have a referendum and the and the Lib Dems are living in the past and showing question for Labour is whether we reach that point nothing but contempt for the public. Yet again, they are gracefully or reluctantly. We now need to move beyond unable to trust the British public. this debate and set out the terms of how sovereignty can By contrast, it is this party—a united Conservative be redrawn between us and Europe. That is my single party—that is giving the public the chance to have a plea. This is the easy part of the debate where we ask referendum. We want to empower the public to decide 1237 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1238 how they should be governed and who should govern As the Financial Times stated in January, “many” them. In doing so, we are continuing our proud tradition entrepreneurs “strongly support” Britain remaining part of putting the British interest first in Europe. One lady of the European Union. We would be profoundly mistaken who did that was, of course, Margaret Thatcher. She to put at risk this country’s economic well-being for the won the rebate for this country. Shamefully, it was interests of the Conservative party. abandoned by the Labour party. The current Prime Minister has vetoed a treaty and secured a reduction in the EU budget, unlike the Labour party. 1.36 pm On this historic day, Conservative MPs can take Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): It is not surprising Britain one step closer to holding a referendum and that most people want this referendum. Seven out of trusting the people to decide their destiny when it comes 10 people have never had a say on our relationship with to Britain and the European Union. Europe, and nobody has had a say on our relationship with the European Union—it did not exist in 1975. It is striking that people generally want a referendum sooner 1.32 pm rather than later, and the beauty of the Bill is that it sets a longstop date but does not close down the possibility Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): This morning, I was of holding a referendum sooner than 2017. I commend in the Tea Room. It was packed with salivating Tories. my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James The atmosphere was that of a students’ refectory before Wharton) for ensuring that that was the case. a students union debate: full of impotent expectation. I say impotent because the Bill is a constitutional nonsense, Right now our Government should be preparing the as we all surely realise. ground and putting our best and most urgent efforts into renegotiation. Businesses across the country want The Prime Minister has made it clear that if we have us to fight their corner; people want to know that their a Conservative Government after the next election—God Government are already fighting to get control of our forbid—he will renegotiate Britain’s membership of the borders. Business needs certainty, people need certainty—as EU and then hold a referendum. He is supporting the a minimum, they must be certain of when the uncertainty Bill because it is about a referendum in the next Parliament. will end. People also need to know that Britain is ready However, as we all know, it is constitutionally impossible for the results of a referendum, so let us do the work for this Parliament to make a decision that binds a now. There is nothing to stop the Government and the future Parliament. civil service doing the ground work. Tell us what leaving What we are engaged in today is a pantomime. The or staying in the EU might mean. Tell us that leaving is Bill is not about the country’s needs. It is another bone a possibility. Alongside the Bill, why not publish an for Eurosceptics to gnaw away at until they eventually audit of the costs and benefits of EU membership, go blue in the face. I am sad because this pantomime is sooner rather than later? Those are all activities we can also a tragedy. The Bill poses a grave risk to the economic undertake now. interests of this country. I very much regret that the In conclusion, Conservatives led the way forward in Prime Minister and Conservative party are more concerned the past by securing a rebate from the EU budget, and about that party’s internal politics than about the best we led the way in securing a cut in the EU budget. Let interests of the people of this country. In seeking to us lead the way again today, but this time not only the place a question mark over Britain’s membership of the Conservatives. Let the whole Parliament lead the way in European Union, the Bill creates enormous strategic giving the British people a say on a future relationship uncertainty for Britain’s place in the single market. As with the European Union. Sir Martin Sorrell, chief executive of the advertising group WPP, said in response to the Prime Minister’s Bloomberg speech, it is 1.38 pm “another reason why people will postpone investment decisions”. Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): May I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Stockton South Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Will the (James Wharton) on winning the ballot and promoting hon. Gentleman give way? this Bill? I know that many of his colleagues would have loved to be No. 1—indeed, a few Labour Members would have liked to come first and promote the very Wayne David: Time is short so I will not. The Bill same Bill. We might have elicited more support from the seeks to create four long years of damaging uncertainty Labour Benches if one of us had done that, but I am about Britain’s future relationship with the single market. not sure. In so doing, it maximises the possibility of the UK no longer being seen as a sound location for inward investment. I have heard a lot today about how one party or Let me be clear: the single market is of central economic another is playing politics, but as far as I am concerned, importance to this country and 3.5 million jobs depend those who suffer when party politics are played on any on that market—150,000 in my country of Wales. Some side are the public. The only people who will suffer if companies say that leaving the European Union will this Bill is not supported will be the public who have make no difference, but many others hold a profoundly wanted a referendum for many years. different view. The Smiths Group of advanced technologies, the Weir Group of leading engineering businesses, easyJet, David Simpson: On that point, does the hon. Lady Ford and Toyota have all expressed concerns at the idea agree that the general public want a level playing field in of the United Kingdom not having access to the single Europe? They have not seen that for many years, and European market. this referendum will give them their say. 1239 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1240

Kate Hoey: To me, this referendum is not just about 1.43 pm politicians trusting the people, but about people beginning to trust us again, as the hon. Member for Richmond Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): This is an Park (Zac Goldsmith) said. Looking at the records of historic day. For the first time in nearly 40 years, a all the political parties on Europe over the last 20 years, major political party of Government is united in its the public find there is not much that they can trust in commitment to give the British people a choice as to what any of the political parties have said. That is whether they stay in the EU. That is the important part precisely why we need this legislation. of this debate. The Prime Minister and the Government have been Of course, the Bill will not bind the next Government. criticised for not introducing a Government Bill. Let us If my party is in power after the next election, I will be absolutely clear: there is only one party that is continue to campaign for a referendum. I hope it will be stopping this Bill being a Government Bill or having recognised that any party that goes into the next election time, and that is the Liberal party. Let us be clear also without offering the people the chance of a referendum that the Liberals gave a solemn promise at the last will not be looked on very well. I am therefore confident, election to have an in/out referendum. They gave that as some of my colleagues are, that our party will change promise only because they thought then that they would its mind on this, just as it changed its mind on the euro win it. They are now reneging on that promise, so this is and a number of other issues relating to legislation that down to them. has been introduced. This is only a private Member’s Bill. Despite the fact It is common sense that we need a referendum. Europe that we all salute our hon. Friend the Member for has changed so much—I will not go through all the Stockton South (James Wharton) for the way he has different treaties. No one under the age of 55 has had a introduced it, its likely progress reminds me of the say on this. It is just scandalous to think that any party games of Cluedo I used to play as a boy. In about nine can sit around and abstain on an issue like this. What is or 10 months’ time, the body of my hon. Friend with his the point? I genuinely cannot understand why we want Bill will be found dead in the morning room with to abstain, other than to say that we are playing into the daggers in his back, but nobody will claim responsibility hands of the Conservatives. I do not think I am playing for killing his Bill. It will not be the Rev. Yellow Cleggo into the hands of the Conservatives by voting for this or Comrade Scarlet, but my hon. Friend’s Bill will be Bill today; I am playing into the hands of my constituents dead. The responsibility for the British people being and the British public, who want a referendum. I appeal denied a referendum will not lie with us. to Members from my party not to abstain. This is not Sooner or later, the Liberal party and the Labour necessarily the Bill that will finally get consent in this party will have to come clean with the British people House; there will be amendments—I personally would and offer a referendum, as we are offering a referendum. like a referendum sooner rather than later. When the Bill is finally talked out on some dark rainy I want to read out two simple letters from the many night or morning, probably in the other place, and when that I have received over the last week or two since the we have ensured that all the other private Members’ Bill was published: Bills are slaughtered to make way for it, we will have to go back to the Government and say to our partners in “As one of your constituents I am asking you to listen to my coalition, “Give us a Government Bill.” If our partners voice, and the voice of millions of others, who believe it’s time that the British people were given a say on Britain’s membership refuse to give us that Bill, that will be an excellent of the European Union. platform on which to fight the next general election. We will remind the people again and again who killed the This is not about party politics or the next general election. Bill by talking it out. It’s about democracy, and giving people a chance to decide We must start negotiating now. There are so many whether the EU is right or wrong for Britain.” fundamental issues—on our fisheries, on our farming The next letter says: and on our trade—that need to be worked out. I am confident that there will be a referendum. I fear that our “Thanks for your stance on a referendum, we do appreciate partners in Europe will make very few concessions. I being treated like adults, despite what” fear that the French will not be prepared to give us more some other Members of Parliament are saying. freedom on agriculture, and I fear that the Spanish will not be prepared to give us more freedom on fishing. I I feel strongly that this Bill sends a message today, fear that we will make very little progress, but we will try 40 years after we originally joined the Common Market, our best and the decision will then go to the British that we are in a new century and a new era. Europe has people. changed. Our country now needs to make that final decision about whether our future will be in Europe or Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: Will my hon. Friend give whether we can see a better future outside Europe. We way? will be vilified by the establishment—anyone who has tried to speak out on Europe over the years has been vilified. The mantra of the European Union elite has Sir Edward Leigh: No, I am going to finish now. always been “Ever-closer union”. They will not allow When we get to that point, unless major concessions such minor concerns as the opinion of the public to are made I, like many other Conservatives, will campaign interfere in referendum decisions. Over and over again, for this country once more to be free. Why should this decisions are quietly pushed through in Europe. We country not once again be in charge of its own destiny? have to speak out. Now is the time for this Parliament Why should we not be part of a genuine free trade area? to say, “We want to govern our own country; we want to That is our vision of a free and prosperous nation, and have a referendum,” and let the public decide. that is what we will put to the British people. 1241 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1242

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): As much professional introduction of this excellent Bill. I hope brevity as possible, Andrew Miller. that I am able to support him all the way to Royal Assent. I want to remark on the timetable for this referendum. 1.46 pm We have heard a lot of talk about those who want a vote Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): now. That is fine, for those who are of the view that our The national interest is now measured by the interests current relationship with Europe is satisfactory or for of the Conservative party. I find that extraordinary, but those just want to leave the EU, but the reality is that not surprising. most of the British people, and most of the Conservative I intervened on my right hon. Friend the Member for party, are in the same space as me, thinking that there Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) pointing out that can be a role and a constructive relationship with Europe, there was no reference to UKIP in the speeches of but that at the moment it is not right. Europe simply has either the hon. Member for Stockton South (James too much power. We need the opportunity to seek a Wharton) or the Foreign Secretary. I was surprised renegotiation and put that to the British people. earlier when I had a conversation in the Tea Room with It is important that we give the British people their the Minister for Europe. I asked him whether he was say. As has been said, there has been one referendum, leading on the Bill. He said, “No, William is,” and I seeking consent for membership of a common market. made the wrong assumption that he meant the hon. That was all the British people signed up to, but we now Member for Stone (Mr Cash). He corrected me. find that we are part of a political union that interferes I want to make one serious point. I am not opposed in all aspects of our lives. The British people do not like to a referendum. I have sat through the debate and it. It will be bad for the body politic if we do not get listened carefully to all the contributions. At the beginning, behind my hon. Friend’s Bill and endorse the concept of my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) a referendum, but that referendum must follow a debate asked what about next year? My hon. Friend the Member about what we think our relationship with Europe for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) pointed out that the should look like. It is time that this country took charge Bill will mean four years of uncertainty, and it is that of its relationship with Europe and made it work in our uncertainty that causes me serious concern. best interests. This Bill, if it receives a Second Reading today, will Andrew Bridgen: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? strengthen the Prime Minister’s hand in any negotiations. It will tell Europe that we mean business and that we are Andrew Miller: No, I am not going to give way. determined to get our powers back. The Prime Minister My constituency is dominated by manufacturing can then say, quite categorically, “We don’t want any companies that have a strong presence in Europe: 88% more interference in our employment laws. We don’t of vehicles produced in the Vauxhall factory end up in want any more benefit tourists. We don’t want any more mainland Europe. We are trying to incentivise the supply messing around in our criminal justice system. We want chain in the automotive sector, and in a range of other our sovereignty back.” The British people simply will industries, to come to the UK. During the four-year not support a relationship with Europe until it gets period, there will be key investment decisions. My worry, back to what it was set up for: trade and trade only. when we talk to people in China and the far east about This relationship is far too important to be decided bringing supply chains back to Europe, is that if there is purely by Members of this House. This is about Britain uncertainty about Britain’s place in Europe, they will be and its place in the world and we must let the people of more likely to place their investments in mainland Europe. Britain decide. That needs to be considered during the passage of the Bill. If we are to have a referendum, I plead with 1.52 pm the House to do it quickly and get it over with, so that the manufacturing sector does not face uncertainty. If Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I have not got we go on in the way we are, with this vague date in the much time. First, I congratulate the hon. Member for future—at least four years—I worry intensely about the Stockton South (James Wharton) on his Bill and his impact on manufacturing. excellent speech promoting it. I will certainly be voting I started my political life way back in the ’60s, and in for it later. However, I want the Bill to propose a the ’70s I found myself on the opposite side to the hon. referendum in this Parliament, and as soon as possible, Member for Stone. I campaigned vigorously about not because that is what my voters want and what the joining the EU. I realised by the 1980s that our economy country wants. Four years is too long. I also want to had become inextricably linked with the EU. That remains ensure that the wording of the question is carefully my view. We should be working out a way that carries phrased, so that it is not a leading question. It should on building our relationships with Europe, but, yes, give a genuine choice to voters, so that they will not be there have to be some strong negotiations about the misled by the wording. issues that hon. Members have legitimately raised today. Millions of Labour voters want a referendum as well. I urge the House to think about these points as the Bill Thousands of my constituents want a vote, too. I have goes through. evidence of that. We are speaking for millions of Labour voters—perhaps not every Labour voter, but certainly millions of them—who equally, like many Government 1.50 pm Members, want a referendum. Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): I will endeavour I have some backing, in a sense, because four years to be brief. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member ago I had a mini-pilot referendum in my constituency of for Stockton South (James Wharton) on his articulate, Luton North. I publicly supported that and supported 1243 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1244

[Kelvin Hopkins] 1.57 pm a yes vote. We got a 2:1 majority in favour of a referendum. Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): I shall Subsequent to that, I won my seat in 2010—interestingly, try to be as brief as possible. It is traditional to congratulate with a swing to Labour. I am not suggesting that my the winner of the private Members’ ballot, and I am support of the referendum was the cause of that, but it happy to do that, although speaking as a Member who certainly did not do me any harm. I feel that I have has been here for 21 years, I have never even come in the personal backing from my constituency for a referendum. top 20. I say that with no rancour and no bitterness. I I have a long track record. In 1975, I not only voted am certain that the Bill will obtain its Second Reading against the Common Market as it was then, but I was today, and will sail through Committee—although after the agent for the no vote in Bedfordshire and campaigned that, who knows? The Bill will do so without my support, hard in that referendum. At the special Labour party so let me briefly say why. conference that took place before the referendum, there The fact that the hon. Member for Stockton South was a massive Labour majority in favour of getting out (James Wharton) has chosen a controversial subject of the European Union. The greatest speech I have ever should not be made into an issue for consideration. heard, before or since, was delivered by Michael Foot, Sometimes MPs bring in private Members’ Bills and try urging us to remove ourselves from the Common Market. to build a good deal of consensus behind them, so that At that time, there was massive support among Tory their proposers can get them through. There are plenty MPs for staying in. If Labour has switched sides, so too of other issues, however. Provisions on capital punishment have the Tories. and abortion, for example, started off as private Members’ After the 1975 referendum we had the Single European Bills, and the Hunting Act 2004 started off as a private Act, which I thought was a mistake. We had the ERM— Member’s Bill. Whether the hon. Member for Stockton exchange rate mechanism—disaster, which certainly was South will have such a smooth ride with his Bill, I do a mistake, and I predicted it beforehand. Maastricht not know. was another mistake, as was the strangely named growth and stability pact—what growth and what stability? I will not support the Bill, although together with my Then we had the euro disaster, followed by Lisbon. We hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West have thus seen a massive shift of power from national (Mr Davidson) and my right hon. Friend the Member Parliaments to Brussels, which has obviously been the for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) I do support a referendum. design from the beginning. It is something that we have I hope to persuade our Front-Bench team—I am perhaps to stop and reverse. a bit more optimistic on this than my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East—to adopt a rational Unemployment stands at over 12% in the eurozone—and position on the reform of the EU, eventually resulting in the European Union, I believe—and is rising. Whatever in a referendum for the British people to decide. After our problems, they are a lot worse for those inside the all, we have only ever had one referendum on this eurozone, which is proving to be a disaster. If we stay in subject, and it was provided by a Labour Government. the EU, I want to see a renegotiation that would cover getting us out of the common fisheries policy, removing I will not support the Bill, first, because it is defective ourselves from the common agricultural policy and and incompatible with the Political Parties, Elections getting rid of free movement provisions—all the things and Referendums Act 2000. I do not support it, secondly, that have been mentioned today. If we do not succeed because it will never be implemented. If, after 2015, on those issues, I can tell hon. Members that I shall vote there is a majority Tory Government, they are certain to no in the referendum and vote for our exiting from the change course and bring forward a different proposal—as EU. I could say much more, but I have probably said would any other majority Government. If there is a enough. coalition Government, we will be back exactly where we are today. Another reason is that the heart of this Bill is fruit-cake therapy for Tories, in an attempt to provide a 1.56 pm talisman against UKIP. That is what drives this issue. A Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I rise to support more rational, reasonable and durable approach is required. the Bill and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) on his excellent This is an attempt to replicate Harold Wilson’s ultimately speech. The Bill is very much in the national interest, successful strategy of the early ’70s, but Harold Wilson and I regret that party political interests are being put was a far wilier operator than this Prime Minister. He first by the Labour party. I could raise many issues, but devised the dissenting Ministers campaign and the they have already been raised, so I shall raise something referendum campaign principally to reconcile the deep completely different—about our best ally, the United divisions within the Labour party at the time and to States of America. avert a destructive split, and that was successful for nearly 10 years, but it did not prevent it. As much as Recent comments have come out of the White House anything, it was the split on the left in British politics and the State Department that express concerns about that resulted in the hegemony of the Conservative party this country’s debate about Europe. I am pro-America; throughout the ’80s. The split did take place, and it took I love America; and America is our closest ally—but it another 15 years to recover from it. is for the British people to decide our destiny, not for the United States, this current President or any future We are dealing here with fundamental political forces. President. It is very much as a pro-American that I have The difference now is that the split is on the right of risen to say that it is in the American national security British politics. I fully expect this Bill to come back on interests to have a strong Britain, a sovereign Britain, an Report in November, and I will be fascinated to see how independent Britain and a Britain that is self-governed. it plays out after that. 1245 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1246

2pm Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put. Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): May I first join Members on both sides in congratulating my hon. The House divided: Ayes 305, Noes 30. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) Division No. 44] [2.4 pm on a magnificent speech introducing his Bill? My first act of political campaigning was to take part AYES in the 1979 referendum campaign. I was not old enough Adams, Nigel Dinenage, Caroline to vote, I hasten to add. However, I did go around Afriyie, Adam Djanogly, Mr Jonathan putting leaflets through doors. I did so, first, because as Aldous, Peter Dodds, rh Mr Nigel a Conservative I strongly believed in the free trade Amess, Mr David Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen opportunities that the European Economic Community Andrew, Stuart Dorries, Nadine represented. I thought it would be good for our economy Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Doyle-Price, Jackie and for business. I was also in favour because of the Bacon, Mr Richard Drax, Richard statements in the leaflets I was putting through the Baker, Steve Duddridge, James doors, such as “The case for staying in the EEC”, which Baldry, Sir Tony Duncan, rh Mr Alan Baldwin, Harriett Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain said that we would gain, not lose, effective sovereignty Barclay, Stephen Dunne, Mr Philip over our destiny, and that in the last resort we would be Barker, rh Gregory Ellis, Michael able to veto any proposal put forward in Brussels if we Baron, Mr John Ellison, Jane considered it to be against our vital national interests. Barwell, Gavin Ellwood, Mr Tobias There was also the leaflet paid for by the taxpayer Bebb, Guto Elphicke, Charlie that went through every single door in the country Bellingham, Mr Henry Eustice, George which stated: Benyon, Richard Evans, Graham Beresford, Sir Paul Evans, Jonathan “No important new policy can be decided in Brussels or Berry, Jake Evennett, Mr David anywhere else without the consent of a British Minister answerable Bingham, Andrew Fabricant, Michael to a British government and British Parliament.” Binley, Mr Brian Fallon, rh Michael Since that time, we have seen those assurances undermined Blackman, Bob Field, Mark time and again. Blackwood, Nicola Fox,rhDrLiam I supported the single European Act because I thought, Blunt, Mr Crispin Francois, rh Mr Mark again, that it would represent an extension of the Boles, Nick Freeman, George opportunities available for British business, and I remember Bone, Mr Peter Freer, Mike Bottomley, Sir Peter Fuller, Richard that from the time when I worked with Margaret Thatcher, Bradley, Karen Gale, Sir Roger who has been quoted several times. She was the person Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Sir Edward who signed the single European Act, and she told us she Bray, Angie Garnier, Mark did so because of the advice given to her by the lawyers, Brazier, Mr Julian Gauke, Mr David that it was designed to achieve the single market, and Bridgen, Andrew Gibb, Mr Nick once that was done it was no longer necessary and it Brine, Steve Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl would, essentially, come off the statute book. Unfortunately Brokenshire, James Glen, John the legal advice was wrong. It was not just confined to Bruce, Fiona Godsiff, Mr Roger single market measures. That phrase was interpreted to Buckland, Mr Robert Goldsmith, Zac push through measures that had nothing to do with the Burley, Mr Aidan Goodwill, Mr Robert single market. It was for that reason that she started to Burns, Conor Gove, rh Michael become opposed to the direction of the European Union, Burns, rh Mr Simon Graham, Richard and I did, too. Burrowes, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen Burt, Alistair Gray, Mr James Since joining this House I have voted against the Byles, Dan Grayling, rh Chris Maastricht treaty, the Nice treaty, the Amsterdam treaty Cairns, Alun Green, rh Damian and the Lisbon treaty, and I have seen successive Prime Cameron, rh Mr David Greening, rh Justine Ministers from both sides come back to this House and Carmichael, Neil Grieve, rh Mr Dominic claim triumph either because they made what was on Carswell, Mr Douglas Griffiths, Andrew the table slightly less damaging than it would have been Cash, Mr William Gummer, Ben or because they had managed to negotiate an opt-out Chishti, Rehman Gyimah, Mr Sam for this country. It is clear that the people in the other Chope, Mr Christopher Hague, rh Mr William countries of the EU have a different vision—or at least Clappison, Mr James Halfon, Robert Clark, rh Greg Hammond, rh Mr Philip their Governments do—as to the direction we should be Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hammond, Stephen moving in. It is time the British people are able to Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hancock, Matthew express a view on the truth, not as set out in 1975, and Collins, Damian Harper, Mr Mark about the direction we know the EU wants to go in. Colvile, Oliver Harrington, Richard I hope the Prime Minister is successful in negotiating Cox, Mr Geoffrey Harris, Rebecca a new relationship. If he succeeds in doing so, I will be Crabb, Stephen Hart, Simon cheering him and I will campaign for a yes vote, but Crouch, Tracey Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan unless we have a different type of relationship, my next Davidson, Mr Ian Hayes, rh Mr John campaign in a referendum will be for a no vote. Davies, David T. C. Heald, Oliver (Monmouth) Heaton-Harris, Chris Davies, Glyn Henderson, Gordon The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Sir George Davies, Philip Hendry, Charles Young) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order Davis, rh Mr David Herbert, rh Nick No. 36). de Bois, Nick Hinds, Damian 1247 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1248

Hoban, Mr Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Wharton, James Hoey, Kate Neill, Robert Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Wheeler, Heather Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Timpson, Mr Edward White, Chris Hollobone, Mr Philip Newton, Sarah Tomlinson, Justin Whittaker, Craig Holloway, Mr Adam Nokes, Caroline Tredinnick, David Whittingdale, Mr John Hopkins, Kelvin Norman, Jesse Truss, Elizabeth Wiggin, Bill Hopkins, Kris Nuttall, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Howarth, Sir Gerald O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Williamson, Gavin Howell, John Offord, Dr Matthew Uppal, Paul Wilson, Mr Rob Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ollerenshaw, Eric Vaizey, Mr Edward Wilson, Sammy Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Vara, Mr Shailesh Wollaston, Dr Sarah Jackson, Mr Stewart Osborne, rh Mr George Vickers, Martin Wright, Jeremy James, Margot Ottaway, Richard Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Yeo, Mr Tim Javid, Sajid Paice, rh Sir James Walker, Mr Charles Young, rh Sir George Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Robin Zahawi, Nadhim Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Wallace, Mr Ben Johnson, Joseph Paterson, rh Mr Owen Walter, Mr Robert Tellers for the Ayes: Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Watkinson, Dame Angela Mark Lancaster and Jones, rh Mr David Penning, Mike Weatherley, Mike Greg Hands Jones, Mr Marcus Penrose, John Kawczynski, Daniel Percy, Andrew NOES Kelly, Chris Perry, Claire Abbott, Ms Diane Jones, Susan Elan Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Lammy, rh Mr David Knight, rh Mr Greg Pickles, rh Mr Eric Ashworth, Jonathan Lucas, Ian Kwarteng, Kwasi Pincher, Christopher Poulter, Dr Daniel Bain, Mr William McCarthy, Kerry Laing, Mrs Eleanor Prisk, Mr Mark Berger, Luciana Miller, Andrew Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark Brown, Lyn Pound, Stephen Latham, Pauline Raab, Mr Dominic Campbell, Mr Alan Reynolds, Emma Leadsom, Andrea Randall, rh Mr John David, Wayne Smith, Nick Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Docherty, Thomas Tami, Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Dowd, Jim Timms, rh Stephen Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Dugher, Michael Turner, Karl Leigh, Sir Edward Fitzpatrick, Jim Reevell, Simon Williamson, Chris Leslie, Charlotte Gapes, Mike Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Lewis, Brandon Robertson, rh Hugh Hillier, Meg Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Mr Laurence Hilling, Julie Tellers for the Noes: Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rosindell, Andrew Irranca-Davies, Huw Heidi Alexander and Lidington, rh Mr David Rudd, Amber Jones, Graham Phil Wilson Lilley, rh Mr Peter Ruffley, Mr David Lopresti, Jack Rutley, David Question accordingly agreed to. Lord, Jonathan Sandys, Laura Scott, Mr Lee Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second Loughton, Tim time. Luff, Peter Selous, Andrew Lumley, Karen Shannon, Jim The House divided: Ayes 304, Noes 0. Macleod, Mary Sharma, Alok Shelbrooke, Alec Division No. 45] [2.15 pm Main, Mrs Anne Simmonds, Mark Maude, rh Mr Francis Simpson, David AYES May, rh Mrs Theresa Simpson, Mr Keith Adams, Nigel Blunt, Mr Crispin Maynard, Paul Skidmore, Chris Afriyie, Adam Boles, Nick McCartney, Karl Skinner, Mr Dennis Aldous, Peter Bone, Mr Peter McCrea, Dr William Smith, Miss Chloe Amess, Mr David Bottomley, Sir Peter McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Henry Andrew, Stuart Bradley, Karen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Julian Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brady, Mr Graham McPartland, Stephen Soames, rh Nicholas Bacon, Mr Richard Bray, Angie McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna Baker, Steve Brazier, Mr Julian Menzies, Mark Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Baldry, Sir Tony Bridgen, Andrew Metcalfe, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark Baldwin, Harriett Brine, Steve Miller, rh Maria Stanley, rh Sir John Barclay, Stephen Brokenshire, James Mills, Nigel Stephenson, Andrew Barker, rh Gregory Bruce, Fiona Milton, Anne Stevenson, John Baron, Mr John Buckland, Mr Robert Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Bob Barwell, Gavin Burley, Mr Aidan Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Iain Bebb, Guto Burns, Conor Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Rory Bellingham, Mr Henry Burns, rh Mr Simon Morris, Anne Marie Stride, Mel Benyon, Richard Burrowes, Mr David Morris, David Stringer, Graham Beresford, Sir Paul Burt, Alistair Morris, James Stuart, Ms Gisela Berry, Jake Byles, Dan Mosley, Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Bingham, Andrew Cairns, Alun Mowat, David Sturdy, Julian Binley, Mr Brian Cameron, rh Mr David Mundell, rh David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Blackman, Bob Carmichael, Neil Murray, Sheryll Swire, rh Mr Hugo Blackwood, Nicola Carswell, Mr Douglas 1249 European Union (Referendum) Bill5 JULY 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 1250

Cash, Mr William Harrington, Richard Milton, Anne Skidmore, Chris Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Skinner, Mr Dennis Chope, Mr Christopher Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Smith, Miss Chloe Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Smith, Henry Clark, rh Greg Hayes, rh Mr John Morris, Anne Marie Smith, Julian Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heald, Oliver Morris, David Soames, rh Nicholas Collins, Damian Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, James Soubry, Anna Colvile, Oliver Henderson, Gordon Mosley, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hendry, Charles Mowat, David Caroline Crabb, Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Mundell, rh David Spencer, Mr Mark Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll Stanley, rh Sir John Davies, David T. C. Hoban, Mr Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Stephenson, Andrew (Monmouth) Hoey, Kate Neill, Robert Stevenson, John Davies, Glyn Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Stewart, Bob Davies, Philip Hollobone, Mr Philip Newton, Sarah Stewart, Iain Davis, rh Mr David Holloway, Mr Adam Nokes, Caroline Stewart, Rory de Bois, Nick Hopkins, Kelvin Norman, Jesse Stride, Mel Dinenage, Caroline Hopkins, Kris Nuttall, Mr David Stringer, Graham Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howarth, Sir Gerald O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Stuart, Ms Gisela Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Howell, John Offord, Dr Matthew Stuart, Mr Graham Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ollerenshaw, Eric Sturdy, Julian Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Osborne, rh Mr George Swire, rh Mr Hugo Drax, Richard James, Margot Ottaway, Richard Syms, Mr Robert Duddridge, James Javid, Sajid Paice, rh Sir James Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Parish, Neil Timpson, Mr Edward Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Patel, Priti Tomlinson, Justin Johnson, Gareth Dunne, Mr Philip Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tredinnick, David Johnson, Joseph Ellis, Michael Pawsey, Mark Truss, Elizabeth Jones, Andrew Ellison, Jane Penning, Mike Turner, Mr Andrew Jones, rh Mr David Ellwood, Mr Tobias Penrose, John Tyrie, Mr Andrew Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Uppal, Paul Eustice, George Kawczynski, Daniel Perry, Claire Vaizey, Mr Edward Evans, Graham Kelly, Chris Phillips, Stephen Vara, Mr Shailesh Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Pickles, rh Mr Eric Vickers, Martin Evennett, Mr David Knight, rh Mr Greg Pincher, Christopher Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Fabricant, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Poulter, Dr Daniel Walker, Mr Charles Fallon, rh Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Prisk, Mr Mark Walker, Mr Robin Field, Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Fox,rhDrLiam Latham, Pauline Raab, Mr Dominic Walter, Mr Robert Francois, rh Mr Mark Leadsom, Andrea Randall, rh Mr John Watkinson, Dame Freeman, George Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Angela Freer, Mike Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Weatherley, Mike Fuller, Richard Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wharton, James Gale, Sir Roger Leigh, Sir Edward Reevell, Simon Wheeler, Heather Garnier, Sir Edward Leslie, Charlotte Robathan, rh Mr Andrew White, Chris Robertson, rh Hugh Whittaker, Craig Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, Mr Laurence Whittingdale, Mr John Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Wiggin, Bill Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Willetts, rh Mr David Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Williamson, Gavin Glen, John Lidington, rh Mr David Rutley, David Wilson, Mr Rob Godsiff, Mr Roger Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sandys, Laura Wilson, Sammy Goldsmith, Zac Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Wollaston, Dr Sarah Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Wright, Jeremy Gove, rh Michael Loughton, Tim Shannon, Jim Yeo, Mr Tim Graham, Richard Lumley, Karen Shapps, rh Grant Young, rh Sir George Grant, Mrs Helen Macleod, Mary Sharma, Alok Zahawi, Nadhim Gray, Mr James Main, Mrs Anne Shelbrooke, Alec Grayling, rh Chris Maude, rh Mr Francis Simmonds, Mark Tellers for the Ayes: Green, rh Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Simpson, David Mark Lancaster and Greening, rh Justine Maynard, Paul Simpson, Mr Keith Greg Hands Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Karl Griffiths, Andrew McCrea, Dr William NOES Gummer, Ben McIntosh, Miss Anne Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Gyimah, Mr Sam McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Tellers for the Noes: Peter Luff and Hague, rh Mr William McPartland, Stephen Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Hammond, rh Mr Philip Menzies, Mark Question accordingly agreed to. Hammond, Stephen Metcalfe, Stephen Hancock, Matthew Miller, rh Maria Bill read a Second time; to stand committed to a Public Harper, Mr Mark Mills, Nigel Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63). 1251 European Union (Referendum) Bill 5 JULY 2013 1252

Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Margaret Thatcher Day Bill On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. As you know, Second Reading a large number of colleagues on both sides of the House were unable to make a speech on Second Reading. I understand that the Bill is going to be considered in a 2.28 pm Public Bill Committee, where it will have full scrutiny. Can you advise me on how we can draw attention to the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Now. fact that many Members were unable to contribute to today’s debate? Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): Object.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): First, I Mr Bone: You cannot object; I am within the time. congratulate all right hon. and hon. Members who did Mr Deputy Speaker, I appreciate the support of my speak, because 29 managed to get in, but unfortunately Whips in this— 18 did not, and I feel disappointed for them. In fairness, that is pretty unique for a Friday. Perhaps that has set Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): the tone for future Fridays. On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Perhaps it would be helpful to the Government Whips if they were to read “Erskine May” to see how the process works.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): That is not a point of order, but it might have been helpful if they had struggled a little longer to get through the Lobby.

Mr Bone: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. The Bill would amend the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 so that the last Monday in August is known as Margaret Thatcher day. Baroness Thatcher was without doubt one of the greatest Prime Ministers in living memory—[Interruption.]

Mr Deputy Speaker: Would Members please be quiet, because I am trying to hear Mr Bone. It would be helpful if those leaving the Chamber would do so quietly.

Mr Bone: Mrs Thatcher was a great stateswoman, a true patriot, and an inspiration to the masses. She not only did our country a great service but gave Britain back its pride and returned it to prosperity after some of the darkest economic days in recent decades. She gave us a legacy to be proud of. It is rare to find—

Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Thomas Docherty: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Mr Deputy Speaker: This had better be a serious point of order, Mr Docherty, because we are interrupting the hon. Gentleman’s speech for the third time. Are you serious or are you not?

Thomas Docherty: My hon. Friend can go first.

Mr Bone: This was a politician with such courage and conviction—

Huw Irranca-Davies: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am seeking clarification. Having been—

2.30 pm The Deputy Speaker interrupted the business (Standing Order No. 11(2)). Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 8 November. 1253 5 JULY 2013 1254

Business without Debate Young Fathers Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House EU MEMBERSHIP (AUDIT OF COSTS AND do now adjourn.—(Mr Syms.) BENEFITS) BILL Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. 2.31 pm Hon. Members: Object. Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I am very Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 12 July. grateful for the opportunity to speak in this Adjournment debate. I want to talk about a particularly important SPECIALIST PRINTING EQUIPMENT AND subject—young fathers, a group that is often overlooked, MATERIALS (OFFENCES) BILL frequently marginalised, and rarely supported in our society. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Over the past few years, there has rightly been a lot of concentration on young mothers, with particular public Hon. Members: Object. policy concentration on teenage pregnancy. However, Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 6 September. there is so little provision for young fathers that we do not even know how many there are in Britain, because COMMITTEES there are no accurate figures. However, those of us representing constituencies like Tottenham know that Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With the they exist and that they are frequently crying out for leave of the House, we will take motions 5 and 6 together. help and support.

EUROPEAN SCRUTINY Modern society is changing more quickly than ever Ordered, before. The traditional society of the 1950s was opened up with the social liberal revolution of the 1960s and That Mr Joe Benton be discharged from the European Scrutiny Committee and Geraint Davies be added. the economic liberal revolution of the 1980s. Both have brought more women into the workplace, raising their TRANSPORT skill levels and aspirations, with society increasingly Ordered, seeing them not just as mothers but as workers in the That Kwasi Kwarteng be discharged from the Transport Committee workplace. That is incontestably a good thing. At the and Martin Vickers be added.—(Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, on behalf same time, the British family has changed. Between of the Committee of Selection.) 1975 and 1997, the time British fathers spent with their children on an average working day increased from just 15 minutes to two hours. Again, that is incontestably a good thing. However, policy has often not caught up with the way that families want to live their lives. Too often, it rests on outdated assumptions of one carer, usually the mum, and one breadwinner, usually the dad. That does not reflect the reality of very many families out there in our country. Therefore, in 2010, I set up the all-party group on fatherhood to place the importance of fathers on to policy makers’ desks and into their in-boxes, and to bring our 19th-century social policy up to date with our 21st-century economy and family life. Many others have been instrumental in raising these issues over many years, often against a backdrop of official indifference or, sometimes, hostility. Adrienne Burgess and her colleagues at the Fatherhood Institute have shifted the terms of the debate, as has Professor Tina Miller at Oxford Brookes university, both of whom well understand that active, engaged fathers are good for families, good for children, and, importantly in these straitened times, good for the economy. I salute their work. I also salute the work of many organisations—too numerous to mention—that work with not only fathers, but young fathers in places such as my constituency. They often do so out of the limelight and often try to convince local public services of the value that dads can offer families. I am thinking in particular of Shane Ryan and his group Working with Men, which works extensively in south London. Such vital work is too often under-appreciated. 1255 Young Fathers5 JULY 2013 Young Fathers 1256

[Mr David Lammy] become fathers. That feeds feelings of deep inadequacy and shame. They know that they are unprepared for Encouraging active fatherhood has been a subject fatherhood, but do not know where to turn to for close to my heart since my own father left my mother support. They have much higher rates of anxiety and and our family when I was 12 and I grew up without a depression than their peers without children. Most of father in my life. I have in the past discussed general all, they are often very angry, and often with good policies in relation to fathers, such as paternity leave, reason. but today I want to address issues specific to young However much teenage dads want to play a role in fathers. their child’s upbringing, life seems to conspire against Although teenage pregnancy remains an issue in our them. A job will be hard to come by for this cohort of society, at least it is accepted that young mums have fathers, given the state of our economy. Their partners problems that are specific to them and that they need may get a home, as has been indicated by the hon. help and support. That rarely happens with the young Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord), but if they are dads who have fathered those children. Too often we not together, it is highly unlikely that the father will get treat young fathers as problems to be solved and not one. The public services to help them with their role as a people to be supported or helped. dad will be patchy or non-existent. Jobcentre Plus will be more interested in processing their benefits than in Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con): I congratulate the working with them to obtain the skills for work while right hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. Is not the bringing up their children. problem he is outlining exacerbated by the benefit system? Sometimes young fathers are discouraged by the woman Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): This is a brilliant and her family themselves, because she might be less speech. A debate on this matter in Parliament is long well-off with a man. Would it not be better—emotionally overdue. On housing, the single room rate for people up and for our society and the future of the children—for to the age of 35 means that increasingly, young men live those fathers to be given a chance? in bedsits in houses with lots of other young men. That is not a suitable place to take a child if the father has Mr Lammy: The hon. Gentleman raises an important occasional custody. point to which I will return. We as policy makers need to think about and understand families. There may not Mr Lammy: My hon. Friend raises an important be a relationship between mum and dad, but more often issue. If we believe, as I suspect Members across the than not the father needs to remain engaged. In the case House do, that we must keep fathers engaged with their of young fathers, they need a lot of support to remain children, assuming that there is no issue such as violence, engaged, or they might walk away and never return. the contact that they have with their children is fundamental. Our media talk so often about “feckless fathers” and Policies such as the room rate cut across that. The costs “deadbeat dads” and assume that all young fathers fit that society has to pick up when a father becomes the same, sometimes inaccurate stereotype. That has to disengaged from his son, and the costs of the repetition stop. It is time for young dads not just to be listened to, when that son becomes a young man, are considerable. I but to be heard, because they are all too often unwilling am pleased that she has raised that issue. to disappear from their children’s lives. They are often The Work programme is limping along and the Youth disfranchised by neglect and by lack of support from Contract is not doing its job for this cohort of young the system, not by design. Mums, dads, children—the men. We need tailored programmes for young men, and whole family—lose out if young fathers find themselves for young dads in particular, because we understand the in that position. cost to society if they do not get it right at this stage. Let us be clear: as President Obama has said, what Things do not look good, which can make these young makes a man is not conceiving a child, but having the men very angry. When I hosted a recent meeting of the courage to raise one. Fathers of whatever age have to all-party parliamentary group on fatherhood in which live up to their responsibilities and to the high expectations we spoke to young fathers, I saw just how angry these that we should all as a society have of them. That does young men can be because of their frustration at wanting not mean that society should not help them live up to to be good fathers, but not being supported by the those expectations, particularly when they are young system. people. Not only are young fathers not supported or helped; Young fathers present specific issues. It is often the they are demonised by journalists and politicians. Myths case that they were looked-after children, excluded from solidify into facts. The isolated but deeply regrettable schools or raised in poverty. Teenage fathers are three incidents of men who father children with different times more likely to have failed to have completed mothers become the rule, not the exception. Figures secondary education and much more likely than their from the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission peers to not be in education, employment or training. show that fewer than 5,000 men are paying maintenance Unfortunately, many are young offenders: 12 % of 15 to for children they have had with three partners and that 17-year-old offenders have children of their own, and fewer than 500 men are paying maintenance for children nearly half of those aged 22 and under are or are about they have had with four partners. Although those men to become fathers. Many of them have never seen what may not have lived up to the high expectations that we good parenting looks like so, without support, how do should have of them, they do not represent the vast we expect them to raise their own children properly? majority of young fathers. Too often, we condemn young fathers for their We must bust some other myths too. The majority of background. They are failed in their schools and failed young fathers are in relationships with the mothers of in their families, and we fail them again when they their children. The millennium cohort study found that 1257 Young Fathers5 JULY 2013 Young Fathers 1258 half the partners of teenage mothers were living with like Earlsmead and Noel Park in my constituency in them during the pregnancy. The vast majority of young Haringey, do encourage such contact, but many will fathers intend to play a full role in their children’s lives, not. and that intention does not disappear with the first This is a problem, and not just for the dads themselves. sleepless night or the first nappy—in fact, it often Research suggests that the mother’s perspective on her grows. The same study found that one in five non-resident care will be determined to a large extent by her partner’s fathers who had low contact with their 10-month-old views. A young father who is engaged with public infants were in more frequent and often daily contact services is more likely to remain supportive of their when the child was three. Young dads want to be there children’s care as they grow up. That is good for children for their children just as much as all dads; they just need and the partner. Young mothers who believe that their support to do it, as one would expect of young people. partner is supportive have higher self-esteem, lower depression, and are more likely to be positively attached Many young dads live chaotic lives. Many hon. Members to their child. will be familiar with young people who live chaotic lives, perhaps even in their own homes. For many young However, what should be a win-win situation is too men, becoming a dad is the wake-up call that pushes often a lose-lose one—public services push away a them to take control of their lives and to take better young dad, which leads to a young mum bringing up care of themselves, as well as their families. That is her child on her own. Such reluctance to engage with exactly what I saw when I visited St Michael’s Fellowship young fathers might also spring from a reluctance to in Brixton—a wonderful organisation that works with engage young people at all when it comes to sex education. young dads in some of the most testing circumstances Young dads know less about sex and relationships than in Britain. I wish to place on record my thanks to Seany young mums, although most are happy to learn. O’Kane, who runs the scheme, and to Kim Normanton, A reluctance to engage young dads before the birth a BBC producer who allowed me to spend time at feeds into a lack of provision for couples to raise their St Michael’s recording “Dads Who Do”, a documentary child together after the birth. Most residential homes for Radio 4. are for mothers and babies only—again, treating fathers as though they are a danger, irrelevant, or both. Too Even among fathers facing multiple pressures, the many young couples are forced apart because of local vast majority try to stay involved in their children’s lives authority housing decisions that do not take a whole-family and to be good role models. They each told me that they approach that would enable young parents to establish feel they are on their own and expected to get by their own households. Pressure on young fathers and without help, support or even recognition of their needs. families builds up, making it even more difficult for Too often, they come up against maternity services at them to look after their children. children’s centres or schools that place no expectation We need an entire shift in attitude on behalf of public on them as young fathers, and all the expectation on the services from focusing exclusively on the mother and young mother. child to thinking about the family, including the father, I have said that young dads often have greater needs however young he might be. That must begin from the than other fathers, and in other parts of our public high expectations that we should have of all fathers. services that would mean more provision for them, not Significant numbers of the birth certificates of children less. In too many parts of our public services, however, born to teenage mothers do not identify the father at young fathers are practically invisible—at best ignored, all. How can we show fathers our expectations of them and seen by some workers as a risk or a danger to be if we do not even require their names to be on their avoided. Too many are denied access to their children children’s birth certificates? Will the Minister explain—I and have to fight their way through the courts. Without have raised this issue in many forums—why his Government legal aid many men are now presenting to MPs in a have not enacted the provisions in the Welfare Reform breakdown situation with their partners, and they have Act 2009 that would provide for joint birth registration? to supervise themselves through the court system. Expecting Young dads often experience significant financial an 18, 19 or 20-year-old to supervise themselves through hardship. We know that the best way for them to a legal process is expecting too much and nothing short provide for themselves and their families is through of a national disgrace. The Government should think skilled, decent, well-paid work. The problems that young carefully about their provisions for legal aid in such fathers face because of the Work Programme’s one-size- family cases. fits-all approach are too numerous to mention. Will the Minister raise that issue with his colleagues in the There is no statutory requirement to provide services Department for Work and Pensions? It is not acceptable to young fathers. Support is piecemeal, patchy and at that public services should fail to engage with young heart a postcode lottery. Too often, young fathers say fathers at all. Young dads should be engaged from they are ignored by public service professionals, who antenatal services onwards, improving outcomes for assume that the father is not really interested in their their children and breaking down poverty and social child. Where support is provided to fathers, it is often exclusion. To achieve that, maternity services, health generic and tailored to older fathers who may need less visitors, social workers and children’s centres should, at help. A recent survey found that in half of cases involving the very least, always record the father’s details, regardless a young family, the health visitor did not even know the of his age, and work with the voluntary sector and father’s name. Young fathers often have little contact children’s centres to provide the best possible targeted with midwives, health visitors and social workers. Children’s support for the family as a whole, including young dads. centres often have targets for engaging with dads, but Will the Minister work with his colleagues to ensure there are no data on how many children actually come that public services support young fathers to live up to into contact with their dad. Good children’s centres, the high expectations we should have of them? Will he 1259 Young Fathers5 JULY 2013 Young Fathers 1260

[Mr Lammy] positive involvement of fathers can lead to enhanced educational attainment, improved behaviour, better well- think again with the Secretary of State for Education being and better relationships with their children. As he about what more the Government can do to raise the said, the foundations of so many social problems—and profile of the expectations that we should have of success stories—are laid in the early years. The evidence young fathers and the services that local authorities and shows that what parents do in their child’s early years is local institutions need to deliver if we are to see fewer a critical factor in that child’s future attainment and break-ups and less poverty as a result? Will the Minister behaviour. also work to introduce parenting education for all secondary Children’s centres have the capacity to be life changing, school pupils? Most of all, if we are to support young ensuring that the families who need the services the dads properly, we need the data to understand how most get the support they need. By identifying, reaching many are out there. How many are being helped by our and helping the families in greatest need, they help to public services, as well as by local authorities and the improve parenting capacity and health and well-being, voluntary sector? Will the Minister ensure that those and support the development of children so that they data are collected in a standardised form, where safe to are well prepared to start school. Children’s centres do so, and made open to public services and other offer different approaches to provide an environment in organisations that want to do more for fathers? which fathers feel comfortable. For example, many offer Finally, will the Minister and his colleagues commit stay and play sessions for fathers and children or networks to improving the services offered by young offender to enable fathers to meet up and feel confident to use institutions for young fathers? Given that so many young their local centres. I remember a few years ago, as part fathers come through young offender institutions, we of an inquiry by the Children, Schools and Families need a better focus from the Department on young Committee, visiting a children’s centre in Westminster fathers while they are in them and can be supported—when North where it was doing exactly that: trying to work they come out—to be better fathers than they might out how better to engage with young dads. otherwise have been. Will the Minister commit to reinstating Some centres work closely with teenage fathers, the teenage pregnancy strategy, which provided so much supporting them in their parenting role and encouraging support for young parents? There has been a substantial them to develop their skills for work. The right hon. cut. Local authorities are moving away from their budgets. Gentleman mentioned Earlsmead children’s centre in In 2009, teenage pregnancy figures were going in the his constituency, which supported a young father who right direction—we saw a 6% drop—but sadly they are was the main carer for a child under the age of two. now going back up. Through the stay and play sessions, and through interacting with the staff to enable him to be better around his child Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): Will the right and to access other services, he went from being unemployed hon. Gentleman give way? to being referred to the centre through a back-to-work programme, resulting in him successfully getting a job. Mr Lammy: The hon. Gentleman has a long track That is a fantastic example of how children’s centres record of taking up these issues in children’s services, can make a huge difference. and I am grateful to him for that, but I probably ought The right hon. Gentleman highlighted his concern not to give way, so that the Minister has time to respond that the needs of young fathers were not being addressed to the questions I have asked. through the Work programme. I can assure him that one-size-fits-all employment programmes no longer exist. 2.53 pm The current programmes recognise that young people need more tailored support to find work. Children’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education centres such as Earlsmead play their part by working (Mr Edward Timpson): In the time I have left, I will do closely with local employment services to help ensure my utmost to address the issues that the right hon. that that is delivered. I will, however, speak to my Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) has raised, but if colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions to I am unable to do so, I will endeavour in the usual way see if there is anything more we can do to learn from to write to him and explain in as much detail as I can recent experiences since the changes were brought in. what the Government are doing to address the important Some local authorities make children’s centres one of issues he has raised. the places where parents can register births; for example, I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing in Manchester, Bury and York. They have found that this important debate. The House knows well the great the opportunity to register births in children’s centres is importance that he places on supporting fathers, which potentially a very effective means of exposing parents is built not just on his huge insight, but on his personal to the support available through centres. They have experiences, which he has eloquently communicated in reported improved engagement with hard-to-reach families. books, articles and papers that he has written on the For example, the Benchill children’s centre in Manchester subject. Only a few weeks ago, as I was driving to a reported that 100% of young parents who registered primary school in Staffordshire Moorlands, I was listening their baby at Benchill have re-engaged with the services to him on the radio giving a powerful demonstration of offered by the centre. why it is important to keep our eye on the ball, not just I share the right hon. Gentleman’s preference for for fathers generally but for young fathers specifically. joint birth registration, because it promotes the involvement Like the right hon. Gentleman, the Government recognise of both parents in the upbringing of their children. He that a father’s role in his child’s life is important. Children will know that the Government’s position, rather than benefit greatly from a continuing relationship with both having catch-all legislation, is to pursue ways to strengthen fathers and mothers. The evidence is clear that the the existing guidance to registrars to make clearer to 1261 Young Fathers5 JULY 2013 Young Fathers 1262 mothers the expectation that the father’s name should I have only a short time left but I echo the right hon. always be recorded on the register unless there are very Gentleman’s comments about young offenders who are good reasons why that should not happen. I am happy also fathers. He also mentioned that many of them have to take up his case with other Departments to see if that spent time in the care system. Some 50% of those in approach has the effect we all want to see. young offender institutions have spent some time in The voluntary sector has a strong track record of care. There was a strong correlation between the two. supporting families. Charities such as 4Children, Barnardo’s Having accepted that those who have done wrong need and Action for Children, as well as the many mentioned to be punished, I want to do more, through my Department by the right hon. Gentleman, run many children’s centres and working with the Ministry of Justice, to understand on behalf of local authorities. In my constituency and how to use that time to give them the resilience, elsewhere, many parents who have children under the support and education they need to better their lives age of five benefit from the valued support of Home-Start when they are, we hope, rehabilitated back into the UK. We are also funding the Fatherhood Institute to community. work in four local authorities to improve educational The Government are undertaking a number of other outcomes for children from deprived communities. The initiatives, including relationship support, the CANparent focus is on helping early years services to engage fathers, trials and the online and telephone helpline services for including non-resident fathers, in their children’s learning. families, to name but a few, as well as the proposed It is vital that very young people who are about to changes to paternity leave and the measures in the become parents get the support they need too. Pregnancy Children and Families Bill. and birth present the first opportunity to engage fathers in I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for securing the care and upbringing of their children. It is important this debate. Like him, I firmly believe that children that both the mother and father feel involved in the need their fathers as much as they need their mothers, pregnancy from an early stage. In 2011, the Royal and we must do all we can to ensure, wherever possible, College of Midwives published “Top Tips for Involving that both parents are fully involved in their child’s Fathers in Maternity Care”. It cites the teenage pregnancy upbringing. support unit in Hull, which assesses the needs of young fathers as well as young mothers, and provides support The measures that the Government are taking will to develop parenting skills. On a recent visit to Eagle help to ensure that we support parents, and parents-to-be, Bridge health centre in Crewe, I met a teenage couple who need it most. Be that as it may, I am always more who were first-time parents. They spoke about how they than happy to discuss with the right hon. Gentleman were benefiting from the personalised support they what more we can do to ensure that young fathers play were receiving from the family nurse partnership as full and active a role as possible in their children’s programme. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about a lives and, in doing that, we have the opportunity— wake-up call, and that was very much that couple’s experience of the programme, which supports children in some of the most disadvantaged circumstances. By 3.1 pm 2015, some 16,000 families in need will be benefiting House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order from the service. No. 9(7)).

71WS Written Statements5 JULY 2013 Written Statements 72WS

ahead of the transition to individual electoral registration Written Statements in 2014. Organisations, neighbourhoods and communities have been asked to come up with ideas to get people Friday 5 July 2013 involved in the democratic process locally and nationally, with the best ideas being awarded funding from the new innovation fund. I welcome Parliament’s scrutiny and encouragement of such ideas, and urge parliamentarians BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS to consider what could be done in their areas and constituencies. Funding is also being made available to local authorities Business Bank who have solid and creative ideas to get as many people on to the electoral register as possible in their area. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and The introduction of individual electoral registration Skills (Vince Cable): I would like to update the House (IER) in 2014 will modernise our electoral registration on progress made to set up a new British business bank system, removing the notion of the head of the household to support the provision of finance to small and medium- being responsible for the registration of others. IER will sized firms in the UK. also introduce online registration making it more convenient for people to register to vote while also delivering a Inadequate access to finance remains one of the register that is more secure and engenders greater trust biggest risks to the UK’s economic recovery. The business in politics. bank will manage £3.9 billion of Government resources and bring together management, budgets, spending A major benefit of IER is that electors will be individually authorities and the power to alter or create new schemes contacted and encouraged to register. This will enable into one place. local authorities to aim to get the maximum number of people on the register, including hard to reach and I announced in December the formation of an advisory under-registered groups. group, led by Sir Peter Burt, former chief executive of the Bank of Scotland, which would advise Government Currently some people, such as those in shared housing in the design phase of establishing the business bank. and frequent home movers are some of the most under- Under Sir Peter’s leadership, the group has made rapid represented on the register. progress. Their recommendations cover the following The funding will be used to support a range of issues: initiatives to be carried out by local authorities and Coverage of the business bank’s activities; other organisations, such as the voluntary, charity and Role of wider business advice and the links to the business social enterprise sector, which will work together with bank; the aim of increasing levels of voter registration among Corporate form of the business bank; under-registered groups. These include: Performance measures; The Targeted Canvassing Fund—A fund which will enable electoral registration officers (EROs) to carry out intensified Building on the existing capacities in Government and its canvassing activity in areas with a high proportion of under- agency; registration. Resource allocation; The ERO Registration Fund—A fund which will support proposals Risk management systems; for activities from electoral registration officers who will use Use of evidence; their knowledge of the needs of their local populations to Leadership including the recruitment of the chair. customise their measures. I warmly welcome the group’s advice and have today Innovation Fund—We will be looking to fund innovative bottom-up begun the recruitment of the chair and senior independent approaches to increase representation of under-registered groups (URGs) on the electoral register. We are particularly interested director for the British business bank. They will have in new innovative approaches to engage communities and the unique opportunity to bring together the wide range increase voter registration. of finance interventions that will help support the UK’s Schools Outreach—We will be looking for organisations to businesses and economic recovery. deliver a set lesson framework, Rock Enrol, which has been I would also note that the business bank investment developed and piloted with Bite the Ballot, to a number of programme launched on 10 April has received a number schools across England and Wales. This is also available to of applications for funding. I hope to be able to announce organisations in Scotland, although we will be looking to ensure that proposals take account of planned activity in the first investments in the autumn. schools ahead of the independence referendum. The advisory’s group signed recommendations letter and overview paper will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. HEALTH

NHS England (Mandate) DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Maximising Voter Registration Measures The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): Today the Government are launching the consultation on the refresh of the mandate to NHS England for The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Miss 2014-15. The consultation will close on 27 September in Chloe Smith): I am pleased to announce that the readiness for the publication of the refreshed mandate Government are making available up to £4.2 million in the autumn to fit with the NHS planning round for this year to maximise the rate of voter registration 2014-15. 73WS Written Statements5 JULY 2013 Written Statements 74WS

The mandate sets the Government’s ambitions for The Metropolitan Police and the Independent Police the NHS as well as the funding available to achieve and Complaints Commission will consider the inquiry’s findings deliver the kind of care people need and expect. The and recommendations carefully and will respond first mandate set an ambitious agenda and was published appropriately. in November 2012. It covered the period April 2013 to I would like to take this opportunity to record my March 2015. The Government expect NHS England to appreciation of Sir Christopher and his team for all the demonstrate significant progress against all 24 objectives work they have done over the last three years in conducting by March 2015 and will hold them to account for doing the inquiry. so. The Health and Social Care Act 2012 requires the mandate to be reviewed on an annual basis to ensure that it remains up to date. It is important to provide the NHS with stability and continuity of purpose and we TRANSPORT therefore propose to carry forward all the existing 24 objectives. At the same time, the scale of the challenge facing the Bus Subsidy NHS and wider health and care system is becoming increasingly clear. There have been crucial developments and new evidence that has emerged since the publication The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport of the first mandate, which calls on Government and (Norman Baker): I am pleased to announce today our NHS England to act. The key proposed changes reflect plans to reform the bus subsidy system. We intend to these core priorities: implement a package of measures designed to improve the actions being taken forward by NHS England in response services by making the subsidy provided to bus to the Francis report to transform the care people receive; companies—bus service operators grant (BSOG)—more working with NHS England to develop a vulnerable older targeted and accountable. people plan, which will improve support for older people and In 2012 there were 4.7 billion bus passenger boardings those with long-term conditions, particularly through reform made in England and over 60% of all public transport of primary care given their pivotal role within communities; and trips were made on local buses. Given the crucial role the bus network plays in supporting social inclusion, the need for the NHS to contribute to securing the recovery of the economy and make better use of resources in the light of linking people to places of commerce and providing the challenging fiscal climate. employers with access to labour markets, buses deserve On the second of these priorities, the Government to be recognised as the backbone of our public transport are also launching today dedicated engagement on the system and key to a healthy, growing economy. vulnerable older people plan, working jointly with NHS However, despite pockets of strong growth, overall England. The engagement will seek views from staff, bus patronage has been in long-term decline. Added to patients and the public on how to achieve the ambition this, the way in which subsidy is used to support the bus of how more integrated out-of-hospital care, building market has become increasingly poorly targeted. This on the strong tradition and values of the family doctor. economic context, however, makes it imperative to push In addition to the three priorities, the Government for improved bus services that are more locally accountable are also proposing to make a number of targeted changes and provide better value for passenger and taxpayer. to the current objectives which are thought to be essential This is why we intend to reform bus subsidy by making to deliver the improvements in people’s care. The the following changes: consultation document sets out where the Government creation of a new local government fund—better bus areas; are proposing to make these changes for the period devolution to Transport for London/the Greater London Authority April 2014 to March 2015. of the BSOG paid to London bus operators who operate The Government welcome views on the proposals services under contract to TfL; and invites comments through the consultation process. tightening the existing rules defining which bus services can claim BSOG, so that the available funding is put to the best “Refreshing the Mandate to NHS England: 2014-15 possible use; Consultation” has been placed in the Library. Copies paying BSOG to local authorities, rather than operators, where are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and funding relates to services they support. to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. The first three of these changes will take effect from 1 October this year. However, I have decided to allow more time for local authorities and operators to prepare JUSTICE for the paying of BSOG for supported services to authorities outside London. Therefore this change will not come into force until 1 January 2014. Azelle Rodney Inquiry We consulted widely on these proposals in late 2012, and our consultation response which we are publishing The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice today—copies of which are being placed in the Library (Chris Grayling): Sir Christopher Holland has today of the House—sets out the Government’s commitment published the report of the inquiry which he has conducted to each of the above measures. under the Inquiries Act 2005 into the death of Azelle Devolving funding for supported services to local Rodney. The inquiry’s terms of reference were: authorities will give communities more control over “To ascertain by inquiring how, where and in what circumstances how money is spent. At the same time, I am keen this Azelle Rodney came by his death on 30 April 2005 and then to change should not cause temporary instability to local make any such recommendations as may seem appropriate”. services. The majority of both bus operators and local 75WS Written Statements5 JULY 2013 Written Statements 76WS authorities have asked for an extended period of ring grant. In line with this, from October a sum broadly fencing, and I believe that the case is a strong one. The equivalent to the BSOG for London services will be funds which we devolve will, therefore, be ring fenced paid directly to TfL and the Greater London Authority. until the end of 2016-17. In turn, we expect local Finally, BSOG was designed to support local bus authorities to take due account of the tendered BSOG services, but over time a wider range of services than foregone by bus companies operating non-commercial was intended laid claim to some of the subsidy. So, we services in managing existing contractual arrangements have tightened the rules so that certain services are no with them for these services and when agreeing new longer eligible for BSOG. In particular, the removal of contracts. eligibility from rail replacement buses will also serve as A further key reform is the introduction of better bus a message to the rail industry that we expect them to use areas. I was delighted to designate Sheffield as the first trains rather than buses wherever possible. BBA in February. Other local authorities had until The Government recognises that this package of reforms today to bid to become BBAs with announcements on represents significant change for the industry. Local further designations to be made this autumn. BBAs authority and bus industry views have therefore been offer an opportunity to explore how bus subsidy can be vital to the development of our proposals and I am better used by local authorities, working with local grateful for the input we have received. The reforms operators, to attract more people onto buses and ensure announced today mark an opportunity to reshape the better value for the taxpayer. support we provide for the bus industry for the better, Management of bus services in London is the using a long-standing subsidy in a targeted manner in responsibility of Transport for London and most of the order to improve services, encourage partnership working substantial funding from central Government to support and deliver better value for money. I look forward to the transport in London is currently paid to TfL in a single improvements that these reforms will bring.

809W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 810W

Written comments on the draft regulations for Data Written Answers to Analysis for Non-Commercial Research, Education, and Research, Libraries and Archives should be submitted Questions by 2 August. Part of this technical review process will involve ensuring compliance with all relevant legal obligations, Friday 5 July 2013 including ECJ case law. The Government have been following closely the case of Wort and are examining the judgment. It would welcome any views on this specific issue from those who plan to participate in the BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS technical review. EU Internal Trade Apprentices Mike Thornton: To ask the Secretary of State for Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Innovation and Skills how many young people (a) made of the number of jobs in each NUTS 1 region started and (b) completed apprenticeships in (i) York which are dependent on trade with the European central constituency, (ii) York local education authority, Union. [163616] (iii) Yorkshire and the Humber and (iv) England in each year since 1995-96. [163908] Michael Fallon: The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has not made an estimate of the number of Matthew Hancock: Information on the number of jobs in each NUTS 1 region dependent on trade with apprenticeship starts and achievements by geography the European Union. and age are published in Supplementary Tables to a quarterly Statistical First Release (SFR). Mike Thornton: To ask the Secretary of State for Final data are available back to 2003-04, the earliest Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses in year for which geographical data are available: (a) total and (b) each NUTS 1 region conducted trade http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/Statistics/fe_data_library/ in (i) services and (ii) goods with other EU countries in Apprenticeships/ the last 12 months. [163617] http://thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/statisticalfirstrelease/ sfr_archive/march2010supplementarydata.htm Michael Fallon: Data on the number of businesses in the UK conducting trade in services with other EU Business: Interest Rate Swap Transactions countries are not available. Data on the number of businesses in the UK (and in Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, each NUTS 1 region) conducting trade in goods with Innovation and Skills what recent discussions he has other EU countries are available from the HMRC Regional had with the Financial Conduct Authority on the number Trade Statistics. Data for each year and quarter (up to of businesses offered redress as part of their redress Q1 2013) are published at: scheme for businesses mis-sold interest rate hedging www.uktradeinfo.com products; and if he will make a statement. [163537] Foreign Investment in UK Michael Fallon: The Government want the Financial Conduct Authority’s review process to be concluded as Mike Thornton: To ask the Secretary of State for quickly and as fairly as possible, and the Department Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has continues to engage with the Financial Conduct Authority made of the number of jobs which have been created or on this issue, including at ministerial level. safeguarded by foreign direct investment from other EU countries in (a) total and (b) each NUTS 1 region Copyright in each year since 2003. [163615] Michael Fallon: The following table shows figures Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for recorded by UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) of total Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment his jobs created and safeguarded by foreign direct investment Department has made of the effect of the judgment by originating in the European Union since 2003. The the Court of Justice of the European Union, in the case figures are further broken down by the 12 NUTS 1 VG Wort v Kyocera on 27 June 2013, on his proposal regions. for an exception to copyright for private copying that allows for appropriate compensation to be paid at the UKTI recorded jobs new and safeguarded by FDI from EU countries point of sale. [163399] 2003/04 to 2011/12 Number of Number of safeguarded Jo Swinson: The Government are currently inviting Region new jobs jobs comment on our draft regulations for changes to copyright exceptions. Written comments on the draft regulations 2003/04 East of England 71 85 for Private Copying, Parody, Quotation, and Public East Midlands 462 90 Administration should be submitted by 17 July either in London 244 40 writing to the IPO or emailed to North East 685 1,521 [email protected] 811W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 812W

UKTI recorded jobs new and safeguarded by FDI from EU countries UKTI recorded jobs new and safeguarded by FDI from EU countries 2003/04 to 2011/12 2003/04 to 2011/12 Number of Number of Number of safeguarded Number of safeguarded Region new jobs jobs Region new jobs jobs

North West 1,470 3,931 Northern Ireland 1,435 428 South East 625 589 Total 10,045 12,359 South West 570 586 West Midlands 971 3,175 2007/08 East of England 782 2,711 Yorkshire and the 413 194 East Midlands 662 2,069 Humber London 1,185 437 Scotland 666 534 North East 865 500 Wales 1,675 1,335 North West 1,054 2,000 Northern Ireland 376 518 South East 1,818 1,823 Total 8,228 12,598 South West 230 440 West Midlands 2,258 7,058 2004/05 East of England 516 1,023 Yorkshire and the 1,168 921 East Midlands 463 27 Humber London 728 140 Scotland 595 581 North East 171 95 Wales 1,680 1,260 North West 2,995 1,072 Northern Ireland 1,989 280 South East 2,372 4,695 Total 14,286 20,080 South West 372 1,152 West Midlands 729 448 2008/09 East of England 341 974 Yorkshire and the 1,631 222 East Midlands 280 385 Humber London 1,531 1,240 Scotland 418 53 North East 889 856 Wales 1,037 225 North West 111 2,003 Northern Ireland 663 2,603 South East 961 1,099 Total 12,095 11,755 South West 61 1,973 West Midlands 874 620 2005/06 East of England 478 257 Yorkshire and the 79 1,074 East Midlands 484 1,437 Humber London 478 915 Scotland 426 100 North East 1,088 231 Wales 1,488 67 North West 507 560 Northern Ireland 2,764 196 South East 1,012 53 All Regions 12 6,000 South West 586 1,338 Total 9,817 16,587 West Midlands 1,416 3,192 Yorkshire and the 880 896 2009/10 East of England 591 810 Humber East Midlands 847 205 Scotland 290 328 London 2,800 114 Wales 1,419 575 North East 557 735 Northern Ireland 154 299 North West 2,242 1,331 Total 8,792 10,081 South East 346 2,522 South West 452 691 2006/07 East of England 243 851 West Midlands 846 507 East Midlands 982 1,120 Yorkshire and the 729 1,925 London 560 0 Humber North East 558 1,247 Scotland 1,820 863 North West 1,132 594 Wales 1,370 2,142 South East 629 1,053 Northern Ireland 460 42 South West 974 2,646 Total 13,060 11,887 West Midlands 1,040 2,149 Yorkshire and the 1,220 227 2010/11 East of England 1,002 1,410 Humber East Midlands 1,148 1,596 Scotland 782 1,672 London 2,355 1,213 Wales 490 372 North East 118 174 813W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 814W

UKTI recorded jobs new and safeguarded by FDI from EU countries (a) efficacy and (c) value for money—the feasibility study 2003/04 to 2011/12 stage of the competition provided all 29 successful bid cities with Number of the opportunity to develop their demonstrator project proposals. Number of safeguarded The independent assessment process that followed ranked all the Region new jobs jobs proposals and the final step of shortlisting and presentation to an independent panel ensured that the best proposal in terms of North West 1,667 1,756 vision, scope, impact and value for money was selected. South East 832 1,738 (b) accuracy—confidence in the feasibility of the proposals South West 516 3,117 was provided by the detailed developed submissions and their independent assessment by external experts. The cost breakdown West Midlands 789 1,494 for the proposed projects was evaluated internally by the Technology Yorkshire and the 470 399 Strategy Board in terms of eligible costs under the rules of the Humber competition, and tested for reasonableness, based on evidence Scotland 1,331 1,321 from the large number of projects that the Technology Strategy Wales 1,044 284 Board has successfully funded. Since third party contracts would be subject to public procurement rules, it was not possible for Northern Ireland 749 55 applicants to specify which third parties would be undertaking Total 12,021 14,557 specific project activities in detail. The Technology Strategy Board relies on the public procurement process and the independent auditing of the local authority accounts to ensure that the appropriate 2011/12 East of England 822 67 processes were followed and value for money secured. East Midlands 691 30 London 3,075 1,682 Royal Mail North East 1,486 289 North West 5,774 3,315 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the profit margins were of South East 1,577 573 the Royal Mail in each of the last 10 years. [163685] South West 371 447 West Midlands 1,299 735 Michael Fallon: The table sets out the profit margins Yorkshire and the 1,116 1,432 for Royal Mail Group (including GLS (General Logistics Humber Systems) but excluding POL). Scotland 960 6,016 Royal Mail’s preliminary results for 2012/13 published Wales 672 302 on 23 May indicated that the profit margin for the UK Northern Ireland 558 0 mails (excluding GLS which operates in Europe) was All Regions 2,715 1,914 3.9%—up from 0.5% the previous year. In the 12 years since 2002, Royal Mail’s core UK letters and parcels Total 21,116 16,802 business suffered losses in five of those years.

Industrial Training Boards Margin (percentage)

2003 0.3 Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 2004 3.3 Innovation and Skills when the triennial review of the 2005 2.3 Industry Training Boards for Construction, Engineering 2006 3.8 Construction and Film Industry Training Boards is 2007 2,1 expected to be completed. [163708] 2008 -2.0 Matthew Hancock: The triennial review of the Industry 2009 1.2 Training Boards is expected to be completed by the end 2010 1.7 of March 2014. 2011 0.2 2012 1.7 Innovation: Urban Areas 2013 4.4 Notes: 1. For 2005-07, Op profit calculated as Op profit before exceptional Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State items minus Op Exceptional Items. for Business, Innovation and Skills what processes are 2. For 2003 and 2004, “profit from operations” used. in place to scrutinise the (a) efficacy, (b) accuracy and Sources: 1. 2003-07 annual accounts (c) value for money of bids for the Future Cities 2. 2009-12 annual report Project under the auspices of the Technology Strategy 3. 2013 preliminary results Board; and if he will make a statement. [163475]

Mr Willetts: The Future Cities demonstrator funding competition, managed by the Technology Strategy Board, CABINET OFFICE aims to deliver a demonstration of the benefits that could be delivered by integration of city systems at scale Unemployment: Young People and in use. Glasgow was announced as the winning city in January 2013. Mr Winnick: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet The Technology Strategy Board managed the Office how many and what proportion of 18 to 24 year competition application and assessment process involving olds have been unemployed for two years or more. independent external assessors. It did this in terms of: [163711] 815W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 816W

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the to the 2010-11 budget of £169 million. The allocation responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have for the grant will increase further to £185 million by the asked the authority to reply. end of the spending review (2014-15). Letter from Glen Watson: Over the last two years, the Government have invested As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have an additional £60 million bringing the total grant in been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how 2011-12 to £200 million and in 2012-13 to £220 million. many and what proportion of 18 to 24 year olds have been The Department for Communities and Local unemployed for two years or more. 163711. Government is working in partnership with the Department Estimates of unemployment are derived from the Labour of Health regarding the future provision of specialised Force Survey (LFS). For the period February to April 2013 it was housing specifically for older and disabled people. The estimated that there were 95,000 people aged 18-24 inclusive who have been unemployed for two years or more. This is 1.6 per cent Care and Support Specialised Housing Fund is making of the population in this age group. Estimates are seasonally up to £300 million available over five years to stimulate adjusted. the market for specialised housing. The Community Estimates of unemployment by age and duration are published Care (Delayed Discharges etc.) Act 2003 gives entailments monthly in Table UNEMP01 of the Labour Market Statistical to six weeks of intermediate care, which can include Bulletin, found via the following link: reablement, as well as aids and minor adaptations up to http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lms/labour-market-statistics/ the value of £1,000. Both of these strands help individuals, june-2013/table-unem01.xls including those with spinal injuries, to return to their own home.

MITIE Group COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Housing: Disability Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much his Department spends on contracts with MITIE; and how Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities much was spent on contracts with MITIE in each year and Local Government whether he plans to issue best since 2008. [162459] practice guidance on the use of the disabled facilities grants to local authorities. [161879] Brandon Lewis: The Department no longer contracts with MITIE. The last contract with MITIE ended on Mr Prisk: The Department for Communities and 31 March 2012. Local Government has no plans to publish best practice guidance on the use of the disabled facilities grant to The amounts spent with MITIE since 2008 are set local authorities, as it was always intended the sector out in the table: would publish the guidance and not this Department. Officials in my Department are working with the Homes Financial year Amount (£) Adaptations Consortium on the drafting of the guidance. 2008-09 7,148,618 The Department for Communities and Local 2009-10 7,992,470 Government funds Foundations to be the National 2010-11 4,847,386 Body for Home Improvement Agencies. As part of its 2011-12 5,353,495 role, Foundations provides training, advice and support 2012-13 368,913 to home improvement agencies, which are responsible for delivering around half of the adaptations funded by The spend figure in 2012-13 relates to payments of grant. fixed costs and final settlement for pass through costs for March 2012 which were paid in April of the following Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for financial year in line with current payment plan and Communities and Local Government (1) what steps he policy. is taking to provide housing to ensure that people with In 2010 under the new coalition Government, an spinal cord injuries are not unsuitably discharged from Estates rationalisation project was incepted to reduce hospital into a nursing home; [161884] property related costs. These were achieved through the (2) what steps he is taking to provide housing for reduction of services (notably the lease expiry of Riverwalk people with spinal cord injuries who are living in House) and renegotiation at a contract extension point. nursing homes because they are unable to find suitable housing. [161934] Planning Permission

Mr Prisk: The Government are working to actively Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of promote specialised housing and the adaption of existing State for Communities and Local Government what housing to help disabled, older and vulnerable people to recent assessment he has made of the number of local live independently in their own homes. My Department authorities who have determined 30 per cent or fewer provides Disabled Facilities Grant funding to local housing of major planning applications within 13 weeks in the authorities in England for the provision of adaptations last three years. [162166] to the homes of disabled people. The Government secured £725 million for the grant Nick Boles: A table showing the performance of local in the 2010 spending review for the period 2011-12 to authorities in deciding major applications within 13 weeks, 2014-15. In 2011-12 the annual allocation for the grant in each of the past three years, has been placed in the rose to £180 million, an increase of £11 million compared Library of the House. 817W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 818W

The Government’s response to the consultation on DEFENCE tackling poor performance in the planning system, including our proposals for implementing Section 1 of the Growth Firing Ranges: Shoeburyness and Infrastructure Act 2013, was published on 4 June alongside the criteria proposed for designating authorities James Duddridge: To ask the Secretary of State for on the basis of under-performance against statutory Defence (1) what assessment he has made of the viability deadlines. of developing housing on his Department’s land in The final release of data on processing speeds, before Shoeburyness; [163532] any initial designations are made, will be in September (2) what proposals his Department has received to this year (showing performance up to the end of June develop housing on its land in Shoeburyness. [163533] 2013). Mr Francois: The Ministry of Defence has not made Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of any assessments or received any proposals on the viability State for Communities and Local Government (1) how of developing housing on land at Shoeburyness. many article 4 directions were put in place by local Iran authorities in 2012; [162352] (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to a local Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence authority of putting in place an article 4 direction; pursuant to the answer of 1 July 2013, Official Report, [162353] column 400W, on Iran, what the assessed and agreed (3) whether his Department offers assistance to local potential liability is to International Military Services authorities who wish to put in place an article 4 of funds owed to Iran. [163684] direction. [162354] Mr Robathan: The matter is the subject of ongoing Nick Boles: The Department’s records indicate that commercial negotiations between International Military 99 article 4 directions were put in place by local authorities Services (IMS), a private limited company, and the during 2012. The Department has issued guidance to Iranian authorities. local authorities on how to put in place an article 4 Procurement direction, including a one-page template for draft directions. Following discussion with the Local Government Association, this guidance is being updated as part of Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the Government’s review of planning guidance. Article Defence pursuant to the answer of 1 July 2013, Official 4 directions vary significantly in scope, and can apply Report, column 401W, on procurement, what the total for example to a single property or a wider area. It is for sum saved through his Department’s re-negotiation of local authorities to ensure that costs associated with contracts is since May 2010. [163709] putting a direction in place, if they decide to do so, are proportionate in the context of local circumstances. Dr Murrison: I can confirm that significant savings made through contract re-negotiations from May 2010 positively contributed to balancing the Ministry of Defence Urban Areas budget during Planning Round 12. I am withholding the information as its disclosure would prejudice commercial Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of interests. State for Communities and Local Government what discussion the Future High Streets Commission has Vending Machines had about the introduction of a two year flexible use class. [162442] Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many vending machines in his Department’s Mr Prisk: The Portas Review noted that the use class premises contain snack foods that are high in calories system imposed unnecessary restrictions on business, and low in nutritional value. [163525] and made it too difficult for buildings to have different uses and to change uses. The Government’s response Dr Murrison: The information requested is not held to the Portas Review in March 2012 noted that the centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate Government were undertaking a wider review of how cost. change of use is handled in the planning system, with a view to reducing the burden of regulation. The Future High Streets Forum was set up in March DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER 2013. It is considering a wide range of issues, including planning, that impact on the high street. The proposal Domestic Visits for a temporary two-year flexible use was set out in the July 2012 consultation New opportunities for sustainable Mr Dodds: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister how development and growth through the reuse of existing many visits he has made to (a) Scotland, (b) Wales buildings. The summary of responses was published in and (c) Northern Ireland in an official capacity in each May 2013, and the amended rules came into force on 30 year since 2010. [163747] May 2013. As announced in the Budget, we are considering what further steps can be taken to support vibrant town The Deputy Prime Minister: Since 2010, I have made centres and help get empty and redundant buildings four visits to Scotland, three visits to Wales and two back into productive use. visits to Northern Ireland in an official capacity. 819W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 820W

EDUCATION Ministers from other Departments also attended. The group is meeting on 9 July 2013 when the Minister for Vending Machines Civil Society will assume my role as co-chair. In addition, Ministers and officials have had numerous Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for other meetings with organisations representing the youth Education how many vending machines in his Department’s sector since we published Positive for Youth. Compiling premises contain snack foods that are high in calories a list of the date and duration of these meetings and and low in nutritional value. [163527] discussions would be possible only at disproportionate cost. Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education has 11 vending machines located across five premises. These offer a range of snack foods, including healthy snacks Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for such as multigrain cereal bars and yoghurts. Education how many myplace youth centres have been completed. [163196] The Department’s catering supplier is also required to provide nutritionally balanced meals and snacks that promote healthier eating using fresh and seasonal produce, Mr Timpson: As of June 2013, 59 out of the 63 with low fat, salt and sugar content. Myplace projects funded were completed. A total of £235 million of capital grant from the Department for Youth Services Education and former Department for Children Schools and Families was allocated to the myplace projects. Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for In respect of the incomplete projects, Bexley and Education (1) what meetings (a) he and (b) officials in Calderdale are already partially open and will be completed his Department have had to discuss the youth-proofing imminently. Tower Hamlets and Suffolk are due to of policy in the last 12 months; [163195] complete later in the year. (2) how many times his Department’s Youth Action Group has met since publication of the Government’s Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Positive for Youth initiative in December 2011; [163233] Education when his Department plans to publish its (3) how many times he attended a Youth Action audit of progress on cross-governmental policies for Group meeting since publication of the Government’s young people aged 13 to 19, as outlined in the Government’s Positive for Youth initiative in December 2011; [163234] report, Positive for Youth. [163238] (4) what organisations he has met to discuss youth services policy since publication of the Government’s Mr Timpson: The Prime Minister announced on 3 July Positive for Youth initiative in December 2011; and 2013 that the Cabinet Office is assuming lead responsibility what the date and duration was of each such meeting; for Youth Services. Alongside this announcement, the [163235] Cabinet Office and the Department for Education published jointly a report on the progress of Positive for Youth1. (5) what organisations officials in his Department have met to discuss youth services policy since the 1https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ publication of the Government’s Positive for Youth attachment_data/file/210383/Positive-for-Youth-progress- update.pdf initiative in December 2011; and what the date and duration was of each such meeting. [163236] Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Timpson: The Youth Voice programme, which is Education (1) what guidance he has provided to local delivered by the British YouthCouncil with grant funding authorities on the delivery of youth services; [163344] from the Department for Education, includes provision (2) what steps he is taking to promote (a) local for the National Scrutiny Group and the Youth Select accountability and (b) collaboration in the delivery of Committee. These groups scrutinise the work of all youth services; [163198] Government Departments and both have looked at the (3) how he monitors progress on the provision of Department for Education’s work on Curriculum and youth services nationally; [163256] Qualifications. In February 2012, the National Scrutiny Group discussed youth policy with the Secretary of (4) how many interventions his Department made to State for Education and on 2 July they discussed the address problems in youth service delivery since Prime Minister’s decision to transfer youth policy to the publication of the Government’s Positive for Youth Cabinet Office with me and the Minister for Civil initiative in December 2011, by geographical location; Society, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, [163237] Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd). The Cabinet Office (5) what minimum expectations of delivery he has is assuming responsibility for the YouthVoice programme issued to local authorities on the delivery of youth and grant as part of the Machinery of Government services; [163577] change announced on 3 July. (6) what recent assessment he has made of the adequacy The minutes of the YouthAction Group are published of funding of and level of spend for youth services. on the internet at: [163578] http://www.education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeople/ youngpeople/a00192405/youth-action-group Mr Timpson: The Department for Education published, These show that the group met on 7 June 2011, 25 October on 12 August 2012, revised statutory guidance to local 2011, 12 January 2012, 27 June 2012, 30 October 2012, authorities on their duty to secure, as far as is reasonably 20 March 2013 and that I co-chaired the most recent practicable, youth services and to involve young people meetings with Martina Milburn of the Prince’s Trust. in local decision making and scrutiny. 821W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 822W

We provide funding for youth services through the 2008 2009 2010 2011 Business Rates Retention Scheme. As our statutory guidance makes clear, local authorities are best Cumulative 1.2 2.6 8.5 9.7 placed to decide what services will meet local needs and additions priorities and how to meet these needs within available (GW) resources. Cumulative 0.3 0.4 0.8 3.3 reductions We expect local authorities to work with other agencies (GW) and organisations to deliver youth services, and encourage Note: local people to challenge decision makers so that services Wind/small hydro/PV capacity under this measure is de-rated; reductions continually improve. We have supported the British are not available for non-major power producers (they are netted off YouthCouncil’s (BYC) work to produce specific guidance the additional capacity). for young people on holding their local authority to Net capacity increase figures can be found in table account. We also fund the BYC’s YouthVoice Programme DUKES 5.7: which supports young people’s involvement in local https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electricity- and national accountability. The progress report on chapter-5-digest-of-united-kingdom-energy-statistics-dukes Positive for Youth, which we published jointly with the Cabinet Office on 3 July, encourages all sectors at both DECC’s last published estimates for new capacity national and local level to collaborate effectively for and retirements were in autumn 2012 as part of the young people’s benefit, and includes examples of good annual updated energy projections. The data can be practice. found here: We collect annual data on local authorities’ planned https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2012-energy- and actual expenditure on youth services. To date we and-emissions-projections have received no formal complaints that local authorities Annex I suggests the following for the total cumulative are not delivering their responsibilities and we have not new build over the next 10 years starting from 2013: needed to use the statutory interventions. Cumulative additions (GW)

2013 11.2 2014 16.5 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE 2015 20.6 2016 24.1 Electricity 2017 30.2 2018 34.6 Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for 2019 38.3 Energy and Climate Change what estimate his Department 2020 44.1 has made of maximum electricity demand as a percentage 2021 46.9 of capacity in the UK. [163250] 2022 48.1 2023 49.9 Michael Fallon: In winter 2011-12 (the latest year for which data are available), maximum electricity demand Although reductions of capacity are not explicitly set was 69.8% of UK capacity1. Data for 2012-13 will be out, they can be inferred from 2014 onwards using data published on 25 July 2013. from annex I and annex J. 1 Capacity for wind, small hydro and solar PV are de-rated for intermittency. Cumulative reductions (GW) Source: 2013 n/a Digest of UK Energy Statistics, 2012, table 5.10, available at: 2014 6.9 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electricity- 2015 11.2 chapter-5-digest-of-united-kingdom-energy-statistics-dukes 2016 13.4 2017 16.7 Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for 2018 17.3 Energy and Climate Change what reductions (a) have 2019 17.3 occurred over the last five years and (b) are anticipated 2020 17.3 in the next 10 years in the total electricity generating 2021 19.6 capacity of the United Kingdom; and to what extent these will be offset by new generating capacity in each 2022 22.7 2023 25.0 period. [163515] These will be updated later this year to reflect the Gregory Barker: The reductions, and additions, in latest developments in policy as well as the wider economy. total generating capacity in the United Kingdom over the last four years is shown in the following table. Energy Companies Obligation Data for 2012 will be available on 25 July 2013. A split between additions and reductions for 2007 is not currently available. However, in 2012, three large coal/oil- Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for fired stations (totalling 5.2 GW) closed under the large Energy and Climate Change how many companies who combustion plant directive, while two CCGT stations secured a contract through eco-brokerage have defaulted (totalling 3.5 GW) opened. on their contractual obligations since July 2012. [163395] 823W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 824W

Gregory Barker: When trading on brokerage, participants The following coal-fired and oil-fired power stations enter contracts, the contents of which are confidential. will cease operation by no later than 31 December 2015: The Government Procurement Service (GPS) runs the Ferrybridge C (coal) (two of four units to close) brokerage platform. When damages become payable for Ironbridge (coal/biomass) default on contractual obligations, the parties can request Tilbury B (coal/biomass) information from GPS to enable them to calculate the amount of damages payable. Littlebrook (oil). Since brokerage started in January 2013, GPS has It is a commercial decision for the plants’ operators received requests for such information in relation to one when to close. The power stations listed above chose to company. opt out of the large combustion plant directive (2001/80/ EC), which placed limits on their operation, including a Green Deal Scheme back-stop closures date of 31 December 2015. However, this may not be the sole reason for closure. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for The industrial emissions directive (2010/75/EU) places Energy and Climate Change how many cashback vouchers further restrictions on the emissions of oxides of sulphur have been (a) issued and (b) paid in each (i) parliamentary and nitrogen from coal plants. It is not possible, though, constituency and (ii) local authority area by 16 June to confirm which coal-fired power stations other than 2013. [163397] those listed above are due to be closed during the next 10 years as such decisions are a commercial matter for Gregory Barker: 5,118 cashback vouchers had been individual operators. issued by 16 June. 968 cashback vouchers (with a total value of £263,452) had been paid, following the installation Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for of measures, to individual households up to 16 June. Energy and Climate Change (1) if he will make it his The Department will provide geographical breakdowns policy to mothball sufficient power stations (a) already of cashbacks paid in future quarterly Green Deal and and (b) scheduled to be taken out of service to ensure ECO statistic reports. a strategic reserve generating capacity to (i) prevent power cuts and (ii) meet emergency demands in times Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for of conflict or other crises; [163516] Energy and Climate Change how many (a) Green Deal (2) whether he has identified any power stations, assessments and (b) Green Deal plans were completed either closed or scheduled for closure, which could be in each (i) parliamentary constituency and (ii) local mothballed economically; and if he will make a authority area by 16 June 2013. [163398] statement. [163517]

Gregory Barker: The number of Green Deal assessments Michael Fallon: Decisions on whether to mothball by local authority, up to 31 March 2013, is available in power stations are taken by individual plant owners, Table 1 of the first Green Deal and ECO quarterly not Government. Official Statistics release: Government considered as part of our Electricity Market https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/208912/GD_Statistics_-_Ql_2013.xlsx Reform Programme a number of options to ensure future security of electricity supply, including a Strategic I will place in the Libraries of the House a table Reserve. A Capacity Market, rather than a Strategic showing the number of Green Deal assessments by Reserve, was chosen as the preferred means as it offers parliamentary constituency up to 31 March 2013. the surest way to ensure security of supply against a Assessments by local authority and by parliamentary range of scenarios. In June 2013 Government confirmed constituency, up to 30 June 2013, will be included in the that the first capacity auction would be held in late 2014 next quarterly release published on 19 September. for delivery in 2018-19, subject to state aid approval. The Department will provide geographic breakdowns In addition, Ofgem and National Grid have undertaken of Green Deal Plans in future quarterly Official Statistics a consultation on the need for and design of new releases. balancing services to ensure security of supply in the Power Stations period before the Capacity Market is in operation. This could include National Grid contracting generation plant that would otherwise be retired as uneconomic, Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for which is likely to include plant that is currently mothballed. Energy and Climate Change if he will list those (a) oil-fired and (b) coal-fired power stations which (i) have been closed during the last five years and (ii) are Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for due to be closed during the next 10 years, together with Energy and Climate Change whether (a) EU and (b) other restrictions on emissions by power stations can the reasons for closure in each case. [163514] be set aside in circumstances of national emergency; Gregory Barker: The following coal-fired and oil-fired and if he will make a statement. [163518] power stations have closed over the period commencing in May 2008 to date: Gregory Barker: Regulation of emissions from existing Didcot A (coal) power stations currently derives from EU directives on large combustion plants (2001/80/EC) and integrated Kingsnorth (coal) pollution prevention and control (2008/1/EC). The former Cockenzie (coal) allows limited derogation from its requirements if there Grain (oil) is an overriding need to maintain energy supplies, but Fawley (oil). only in the event of (i) malfunction or breakdown of 825W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 826W abatement equipment, or (ii) for power stations normally Vending Machines fuelled by gas, sudden interruption in the supply of gas. Neither directive, nor the national legislation through Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for which they are transposed, makes other provision for Energy and Climate Change how many vending machines circumstances of national emergency. in his Department’s premises contain snack foods that are high in calories and low in nutritional value. [163526] Renewable Energy Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Climate Change has one vending machine that meets Energy and Climate Change how much generation capacity the criteria of the question. from non-renewable energy sources was installed in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012. [163231]

Michael Fallon: Major Power Producers (generators ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS with a portfolio of above 90 MW of capacity) (MPPs) represent around 95% of the UK’s non-renewable electricity Buildings generation capacity. In 2011, no capacity was installed from non-renewable electricity sources by MPPs. In Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012, 3.5 GW (Pembroke and West Burton CCGT Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his power stations) was installed. Department owns Rectory Farm adjacent to Wisley Sources: Airfield, Surrey; and if he will make a statement. 1. Table DUKES 5.11 (capacity as at the end of May 2012): [163523] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electricity-chapter- 5-digest-of-united-kingdom-energy-statistics-dukes Richard Benyon: The Department owns the freehold 2. EDF Energy website: interest in 49.7 hectares of land contiguous with Wisley http://www.edfenergy.com/about-us/energy-generation/thermal- airfield. Part of this landholding is known as Old Rectory power-generation/west-burton-combined-cycle-gas- Farm, Ockham. The Department has ownership of the turbine.shtml# farm but not the farmhouse.

Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Fisheries Energy and Climate Change how much generation capacity from renewable energy sources was installed in Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) 2011 and (b) 2012. [163232] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his policy is on the inclusion of goals on sustainable ocean fishery Michael Fallon: DECC produces statistics on cumulative practices in any successor to the millennium development renewable electricity capacity installed. This is net of goals. [163159] reductions, closures and conversions, as well as new capacity. During 2011, 3.0 GW of capacity was installed Richard Benyon: At the request of the UN Secretary- (including 0.8 GW from the conversion of Tilbury General, the Prime Minister, together with the Presidents power station from coal to biomass). During 2012, of Indonesia and Liberia, co-chaired the UN High-Level 3.3 GW of capacity was installed. Panel on the post-2015 development framework. The Source: panel submitted its report to the Secretary-General at Energy Trends table ET 6.1, available at: the end of May. It proposed inter alia a Sustainable https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-of- Development Goal on food security and nutrition, which energy-climate-change/series/renewables-statistics includes a target to adopt sustainable ocean fishery practices and rebuild designated fish stocks to sustainable Solar Power: China levels.

Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Floods: Dorset and Climate Change what consideration his Department made of the potential effect on sales of solar photovoltaic Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for (PV) manufacturers in the UK of the decision to oppose Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much will be European Union anti-dumping prohibitions against solar spent on improving sea defences in Dorset as a result of PV imports from China. [163189] the 2013 spending review. [163020]

Gregory Barker: The Department is working closely Richard Benyon: The impact of the 2013 spending with the Department for Business Innovation and Skills, review on future spending on sea defences in Dorset has which leads on all Trade Defence issues, on this matter. not yet been determined. As with all trade defence cases, the Government Prioritisation of funding is carried out against a based our position on an economic evaluation of the consistent set of criteria applied to all risk management European Commission’s proposals. Our consideration authorities as appropriate. This ensures a fair distribution included assessment of the impact of these proposals of funding based on agreed priorities, principles and on the solar PV supply chain. The Government also needs. Regional Flood and Coastal Committees (RFCCs) took account of information and views received from are kept informed during the development of the allocation interested parties, including UK manufacturers, installers, and agree their final allocations during the January developers, importers and users of solar PV products. round of meetings. 827W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 828W

Floods: Insurance Nature Conservation

Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) which discussions he has had on the provision of affordable programmes and projects were undertaken by his flood insurance. [163121] Department under its priority of a healthy natural environment programme in each of the last three financial Richard Benyon: On 27 June 2013 the Government years; what the spending was on each in each such year; announced a headline agreement with industry to guarantee and what estimate he has made of likely spend on each affordable flood insurance for people in high-risk areas. such programme and project for each of the next three The Association of British Insurers has assured Ministers years; [163394] that implementing Flood Re will have minimal impacts (2) which programmes and projects were undertaken on customers’ bills. We will be seeking the necessary by his Department under its priority to help to enhance powers in the Water Bill. the environment and biodiversity in each of the last Tackling flood risk will help keep insurance terms three financial years; what the spending was on each in affordable in the long-term. We announced record levels each such year; and what estimate he has made of likely of capital investment of more than £2.3 billion between spend on each such programme and project for each of 2015-16 to 2020-21. the next three years; [163381] Greenhouse Gas Emissions (3) which programmes and projects were undertaken by his Department under its priority to support a strong and sustainable green economy in each of the Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for last three financial years; what the spending was on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion each in each such year; and what estimate he has made of fluorinated greenhouse gases (F-gases) in the UK of likely spend on each such programme and project are used in the retail sector; which UK retailers were for each of the next three years; [163382] directly invited to attend his Department’s stationary refrigeration, air conditioning and heat pumps focus (4) what programmes and projects were undertaken group meeting of 21 December 2012 on the EC by his Department under its priority to prepare and proposal for a revised F-gas regulation; which UK manage risk from animal and plant diseases in each of retailers have been formally consulted on the review of the last three financial years; what the spending was on EC Regulation No. 842/2006 in the last 12 months; each in each such year; and what estimate he has made with which companies and individuals his Department of likely spend on each such programme and project has met in the last 12 months to discuss the review of for each of the next three years; [163383] that regulation; and if he will make a statement. (5) what programmes and projects were undertaken [161997] by his Department under its priority to prepare and manage risk from environmental emergencies in each Richard Benyon: While data are available for the total of the last three financial years; what the spending was sales of F-gases in the UK, they do not provide information on each in each such year; and what estimate he has about which market sectors and sub-sectors subsequently made of likely spend on each such programme and use these F-gases. project for each of the next three years; [163384] No UK retailers were directly invited to attend the (6) what programmes and projects were undertaken stationary refrigeration, air conditioning and heat pumps by his Department under its priority of adapting to a focus group meeting held on 21 December 2012. However, climate change programme in each of the last three representatives were invited from the Food and Drink financial years; what the spending was on each in each Federation, British Retail Consortium (BRC) and British such year; and what estimate he has made of likely Frozen Food Federation. spend on each such programme and project for each of All UK supermarkets were invited, either directly or the next three years. [163385] through invitations to industry representative bodies, to attend an open stakeholder meeting that was held in Richard Benyon [holding answer 4 July 2013]: Details London on 4 March to discuss the European Commission’s of DEFRA’s performance against its priorities can be proposal for a new regulation on fluorinated greenhouse found within the Annual Report and Accounts (ARA) gases. for the relevant years. The ARA is presented to the Officials continue to have regular dialogue with UK House of Commons each year; details are available food retailers and the BRC to discuss steps they are on the DEFRA pages of the www.gov.uk website. The taking to address their use of hydrofluorocarbon (HFC) ARA for 2012-13 is due to be published prior to summer refrigerants. Furthermore, as part of the implementation recess. of the fluorinated greenhouse gases regulatory framework Budget information for 2013-14 can be found in the there have been concentrated efforts to work with the parliamentary estimates that were published by Her large food retailers, who are major users of HFCs, to Majesty’s Treasury on the gov.uk website. address their HFC emissions and reduce their leakage DEFRA’s Business Plan sets out our current priorities rates. along with details of planned departmental expenditure. I have placed a copy of the list of companies and Budgets for the years 2014-15 and 2015-16 are still individuals that DEFRA has met in the last 12 months being finalised. Once this has been done, details will be to discuss the review of EC Regulation No. 842/2006 on available in the parliamentary estimate documents for fluorinated greenhouse gases in the Library of the the respective year. The Business Plan is published on House. the Number 10 pages of the gov.uk site. 829W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 830W

A table detailing the breakdown of the priorities by group which, despite reminders from officials, was not programme has been placed in the House Library. forthcoming. As a result, no further progress has been made with this application. Plants: Falkland Islands The PGI scheme is a voluntary one and so it is for the producers to decide whether they wish to pursue the Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for application. Should they wish to do this then officials Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what help he has would be happy to meet with them to discuss the given to the Falkland Islands Government to tackle the outstanding points which need to be resolved. This plant calafate originally from Argentina; and when this should then enable the application to be completed and invasion of plant calafate is expected to be eradicated. a decision to be taken on its eligibility. [161892] Tyres: Waste Disposal Richard Benyon: Responsibility for environmental management in the UK Overseas Territories (UKOTs) Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, has been devolved to the Territories’ own Governments. Food and Rural Affairs how many licences are currently However, the UK Government recognise that many approved for the recycling of waste tyres. [160585] UKOTs lack sufficient funding and/or personnel to ensure the protection of the local environment and Richard Benyon [holding answer 19 June 2013]: As of therefore they require additional support. April 2013 there were 59 facilities permitted specifically In 2011, DEFRA initiated a series of research projects for the treatment of waste tyres. This does not include to address threats to biodiversity in the South Atlantic civic amenity sites or facilities that may transfer and Overseas Territories. These projects were designed to treat a whole range of wastes, of which tyres may be one bring UK and overseas expertise together to address of many permitted waste streams. It does not include issues specifically identified by the Overseas Territories’ incineration facilities either, although some of these Governments. The funding for these was separate from may also burn waste tyres. Darwin Initiative funding. Two of these projects addressed In addition to permitted sites, a number of sites are threats from invasive plants in the Falklands: registered with the Environment Agency as exempt 1. A review of the potential for bio-control of invasive species from the need for an environmental permit. These are in the Falklands and South Georgia, a £58,000 project undertaken detailed in the following table: by CABI UK. This identified one potential bio-control agent for calafate (Berberis microphylla). The research was published on the Exemption Total DEFRA science website in 2012. 2. A review of the rate and extent of spread and risks posed by Mechanical treatment of end of 395 invasive species, a £74,000 project undertaken by the Royal Botanic life tyres (T8) Gardens, Kew and Falklands Conservation. This research looked Preparatory treatment of end of 3,517 at a range of invasive plants in the Falklands, including calafate life tyres (baling, sorting, etc.) and has supported the production of a draft strategy for invasive (T4) species control in the Falklands. The final report will be published Use of end of life tyres in 539 on the DEFRA science website in 2013. The draft invasive plant construction (U2) strategy is currently being reviewed by Falklands Government experts. In October 2012, UK Government also launched a new Overseas Territories Environment and Climate Fund, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE also known as Darwin Plus. This provides funding of around £2 million per year for projects in our UK African Union Overseas Territories; the call for applications is currently open. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has Shellfish: Colchester to co-operate with member states of the African Union which supported its recent resolution calling for Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for payments of ransom to terrorists to be made illegal, in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress working towards that goal. [163084] has been made on issuing a Protected Geographical Indication for the Colchester Oyster; and if he will Alistair Burt: The British Government and the African make a statement. [164037] Union share the same policy against the payment of ransoms to terrorist groups. The Government used our Richard Benyon: The application to register the Colchester G8 Presidency to secure a G8 commitment to unequivocally Native Oyster as a Protected Geographical Indication reject the payment of ransoms to terrorists. We will (PGI) was received in 2005. It was then the subject of a work closely with the African Union and other multilateral consultation in order to allow interested parties the fora to amplify the strong message made by the G8 in opportunity to object to the application. A number of order to suffocate kidnap for ransom as a source of objections were received during the consultation process. terrorist funding. We hope African countries will support Since then, officials have met with representatives of our work in the UN to establish new mechanisms to the applicant group to discuss the objections and raise awareness of the threat of kidnap for ransom, outstanding points relating to the product specification including any further resolutions to address and mitigate for the application. Following on from this further the threat. information relating to the geographical area and other It is already illegal to pay ransoms to terrorists under aspects of the application was sought from the applicant international and UK law. 831W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 832W

Dominican Republic Alistair Burt: It is already illegal to pay ransoms to terrorists under international and UK law. The British Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for Government are committed to ensuring that UK insurance Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when HM companies, businesses and other bodies abide by these Ambassador to the Dominican Republic last discussed legal obligations. The Government are also pressing the case of Ms Nicole Reyes, a constituent of the hon. international partners to do the same and used the UK Member for Cardiff South and Penarth, with the Presidency of the G8 to secure a G8 commitment to Government of the Dominican Republic. [163667] unequivocally reject the payment of ransoms to terrorists. We hope that other countries, and businesses and the Mr Swire: HM Ambassador to the Dominican Republic non-governmental sector in those countries, will follow discussed the case with the Dominican ambassador to the G8’s lead. We will work closely with them in order the UK in February. Consular officials at the British to suffocate kidnap for ransom as a source of terrorist embassy have raised welfare concerns on a regular basis funding. and urged the relevant authorities to address these issues where appropriate. We are monitoring Ms Reyes’ Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State case very closely and stand ready to make further for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations as necessary. discussions his Department has held with interested parties about the practice of freeing convicted terrorists Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for as part of hostage-release packages; and what steps he Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he or one of plans to take to bring that practice to an end. [163086] his Ministers last met the (a) Justice Minister and (b) Attorney-General of the Dominican Republic. [163669] Alistair Burt: The British Government have a long- Mr Swire: The position of Justice Minister does not standing policy of not making or facilitating substantive exist in the Dominican Republic. The responsibility for concessions to hostage-takers. This means the Government the justice system is shared between the Attorney-General will not pay ransoms, exchange prisoners or change and the President of the Supreme Court. Neither my government policy. right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and We continue to press the international community to Commonwealth Affairs nor any members of his ministerial follow the UK’s lead in not making any concessions team have met the President of the Supreme Court or to terrorists at the UN and elsewhere. The Government the Attorney-General of the Dominican Republic. recently used our G8 Presidency to prioritise this issue and secured a significant G8 commitment unequivocally Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State to reject the payment of ransoms to terrorists. We hope for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when HM other countries will follow the G8’s lead. At the same Ambassador to the Dominican Republic last met the time the Government will continue to discuss the issue (a) Justice Minister and (b) Attorney-General of the at the UN and in other multilateral fora to amplify the Dominican Republic. [163670] strong message made by the G8 to suffocate kidnap for ransom as a source of terrorist funding. Mr Swire: The position of Justice Minister does not exist in the Dominican Republic. The responsibility for Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for the justice system is shared between the Attorney-General Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his and the President of the Supreme Court. Her Majesty’s Department plans to take to ensure that an effective Ambassador to the Dominican Republic last met the mechanism is put in place to regulate and police President of the Supreme Court on 24 January 2013 ransom payments to terrorists. [163087] and last met the Attorney-General on 11 September 2012. Alistair Burt: It is already illegal to pay ransoms to Dominican Republic terrorists under international and UK law. The UN sanctions regime established by UN Resolution 1267 (1999) states that the payment of ransoms to designated Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State terrorists contravenes international law. The UK’s for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when HM obligations under international law are also mirrored in Ambassador to the Dominican Republic last met the UK domestic legislation through the Terrorism Act 2000 Dominican Republic’s Ambassador to the Court of St. (TACT). James. [163671] The UK is taking the lead in encouraging other Mr Swire: Her Majesty’s Ambassador to the Dominican states, businesses and the non-governmental sector not Republic last met the Dominican Republic’s ambassador to make concessions to terrorists. The Government to the United Kingdom on 10 June 2013 in Santo Domingo. recently used our G8 Presidency to prioritise this issue and secured a significant G8 commitment to unequivocally Kidnapping reject the payment of ransoms to terrorists.

Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Department is considering taking steps to prevent (a) he has made of international measures in place to insurance companies, (b) businesses and (c) other prevent countries rejecting financial ransom demands bodies from paying ransoms to terrorists. [163085] in public while paying them in private. [163088] 833W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 834W

Alistair Burt: International legal obligations under opposition activists to ensure their words and actions the UN Sanctions regime established by UN Resolution do not incite violence. We regularly raise our concerns 1267 (1999) explicitly state that the payment of ransoms about freedom of expression with the Saudi Government, to designated terrorists contravenes international law. and will continue to do so. The Government have taken the lead pressing the international community to abide by its international legal obligations. The UK used its presidency of the G8 HEALTH to secure an unequivocal commitment to reject ransom payments to terrorists in accordance with the UN sanctions Blood: Contamination regime. At the G8 leaders recognised that ransom payments only fuel the problem of terror, strengthening and sustaining Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for terrorist groups and encouraging them to carry out Health what his policy is on awarding ongoing payments future kidnaps. We hope that other countries will follow to victims of contaminated blood who are infected with the G8’s lead and ensure that all states uphold the either HIV or hepatitis C stage two; for what reasons sanctions regime. such payments are awarded; and if he will make a statement. [163531] Palestinians Anna Soubry: The Government make annual non- Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for discretionary payments, currently £14,191, uprated each Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what assessment year in line with the consumer prices index, to all he has made of reports that the UN Development individuals infected with HIV or with the most serious Programme has sponsored the annual Palestinian Prince hepatitis C-related disease, in recognition of the special of Martyrs Abu Jihad Football Tournament; [163257] circumstances of these individuals as a result of their (2) what representations he has made to the Palestinian infection. Authority about UN Development Programme sponsorship Fertility of a recent football tournament in memory of terrorist Abu Jihad. [163258] Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the differences in the Alistair Burt: As the Prime Minister made clear in his availability of (a) intrauterine insemination and (b) in speech to the United Jewish Israel Appeal on 15 October vitro fertilisation across NHS trusts in England. 2012, the UK will not tolerate incitement to terrorism [164070] and cannot support those who name sporting events after suicide bombers. The UN Development Programme Anna Soubry: The Department does not collect this made clear in a statement on 2 May 2013 that it has had information. no role in the tournament, its naming or any other activity related to it. The statement is available here: Health Services: Foreign Nationals http://www.undp.org/content/undp/en/home/presscenter/ articles/2013/05/02/undp-response-to-soccer-tournament- Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for hosted-by-ansal-al-quds-club-in-jerusalem/ Health what his Department’s latest estimate is of that We have a regular dialogue with the Palestinian Authority sum owed to the NHS by foreign patients; and how and Israeli Government in which we reiterate the need much of that sum is made up of debts owed by foreign for both sides to prepare their populations for peaceful patients treated in private beds in NHS hospitals. coexistence and to avoid anything which stirs up hatred [163714] and prejudice. Our consul-general to Jerusalem reiterated Anna Soubry: The Department holds data centrally this position in a speech on 19 June 2013, in which he from national health service trusts and primary care called on Prime Minister Hamdallah to continue to trusts (PCTs) on income relating to chargeable overseas avoid violence and incitement. We have also raised the visitors, which is the amount they have charged them issue of incitement with the then Prime Minister Fayyad’s for NHS treatment, and the amount of debt relating to office in January 2013. them that they have written off in their accounts. The Saudi Arabia following table shows this data for 2011-12, which is the latest year for which figures are available. The chairman of Monitor has provided similar data for NHS foundation Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign trusts, which are also in the table. and Commonwealth Affairs if he will issue a public condemnation of the recent convictions of and prison £ sentences awarded to seven activists in Saudi Arabia for Overseas patients inciting protests on Facebook. [163247] Overseas patients (non- losses, bad debts and reciprocal) income claims abandoned Alistair Burt: We are aware of reports that seven men have been found guilty of incitement to protest in Saudi NHS trusts/ 19,538,000 8,882,969 Arabia. We understand that some of the men had also PCTs NHS 13,200,000 2,676,000 been charged with—and may have been found guilty foundation of—inciting violence, including calling for attacks on trusts Government targets. The case remains subject to appeal. Total 32,738,000 11,558,969 We are clear that the rights to legitimate and peaceful Source: demonstrations are guaranteed by international law NHS trust audited summarisation schedules and NHS foundation and should be welcomed in any society. We also expect trust consolidated accounts. 835W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 836W

However, this does not reveal the amount that is Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State in the Department, owed to the NHS by foreign patients. The written-off with contributions from many other Ministers. Sir David debt data may relate to treatment provided to overseas Nicholson, as chief executive of the national health visitors in earlier financial years. Furthermore, since service at the time, played a substantial role in the overseas visitors can include United Kingdom nationals review, alongside other leaders in the health and social visiting the UK, the data will not relate exclusively to care system. foreign patients. Papers relating to the review are available on the The Department does not hold information centrally national archives website at: about how much of the sum shown in the table is made http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/www.dh.gov.uk/ up of debts owed by foreign patients treated in private en/healthcare/highqualitycareforall/index.htm beds in NHS hospitals. Available information about the costs of the review were set out by the then Parliamentary Under-Secretary NHS: Standards of State (Ann Keen) on 10 October 2007, Official Report, columns 672-73W. She said that the total Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for departmental spend so far on staff, patients and public Health (1) what involvement Sir David Nicholson had engagement in direct connection with the review was in (a) commissioning and (b) producing the NHS £1.2 million. Further breakdowns are not available, Next Stage Review; [163510] since the process of developing the local strategic vision (2) with reference to the answer of 10 October 2007, documents, which involved many thousands of staff, Official Report, column 672W, on NHS Next Stage included activities such as strategic planning, public Review, what the final cost of the NHS Next Stage consultation and service quality improvement that are Review was and the costs of the review under each an integral part of core, mainstream business. major cost area were; [163511] Nurses: Greater London (3) with reference to the answer of 10 October 2007, Official Report, column 672W, on NHS Next Stage Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Review, how many (a) clinicians, (b) managers and (c) how many registered nurses there were at each acute other staff made formal contributions to the NHS Next hospital trust in London in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 Stage Review. [163512] and (c) 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [163535] Anna Soubry: The NHS Next Stage Review was commissioned by the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Dr Poulter: As a consequence of Transforming and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), the then Prime Minister, Community Services, the provider arm of some former and reported in 2008. The report was based on the primary care trusts may have transferred into local contributions of a wide variety of organisations and acute trusts. For that reason, the following table shows individuals, primarily under the auspices of the strategic the numbers of qualified nursing, midwifery and health health authorities, who themselves published their own visiting staff employed by each national health service strategic vision documents, upon which the final report organisation, including acute trusts, in the former London drew considerably. The national review team was led strategic health authority area as at 30 September in by Professor the Lord Darzi of Denham, the then each of the specified years.

NHS hospital and community health services: qualified nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff in the London strategic health authority area by organisation as at 30 September each specified year Full time equivalent 2010 2011 2012

London Strategic Health Authority area 51,839 51,785 51,886

NHS Trusts 46,017 49,545 51,343 Barking, Havering and Redbridge University Hospitals NHS Trust 1,638 1,866 1,870 Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 1,301 1,313 1,357 Barnet, Enfield and Haringey Mental Health NHS Trust 652 824 798 Barts and the London NHS Trust 2,435 2,531 n/a Barts Health NHS Trust n/a n/a 4,488 Bromley Healthcare n/a n/a 197 Camden and Islington NHS Foundation Trust 542 492 415 Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust 1,286 1,189 1,591 Central London Community Healthcare NHS Trust n/a 687 957 Chelsea and Westminster Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 1,050 1,040 1,076 Croydon Health Services NHS Trust 941 920 884 Ealing Hospital NHS Trust 524 1,059 1,071 East London NHS Foundation Trust 888 1,147 1,040 Epsom and St Helier University Hospitals NHS Trust 1,268 1,322 1,317 Great Ormond Street Hospital For Children NHS Foundation Trust 1,092 1,061 1,137 Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust 3,026 3,543 3,663 Hillingdon Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 746 753 720 837W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 838W

NHS hospital and community health services: qualified nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff in the London strategic health authority area by organisation as at 30 September each specified year Full time equivalent 2010 2011 2012

Homerton University Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 746 1,012 1,018 Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust 3,206 3,229 3,165 King’s College Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 2,154 2,263 2,410 Kingston Hospital NHS Trust 764 729 754 Lewisham Healthcare NHS Trust 802 955 950 Moorfields Eye Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 320 350 348 Newham University Hospital NHS Trust 750 753 n/a North East London NHS Foundation Trust 711 714 1,617 North Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 720 730 694 North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 1,501 1,489 1,556 Oxleas NHS Foundation Trust 794 1,009 1,016 Royal Brompton and Harefield NHS Foundation Trust 1,027 1,079 1,079 Royal Free London NHS Foundation Trust 1,547 1,560 1,416 Royal Marsden NHS Foundation Trust 735 743 994 Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital NHS Trust 338 351 350 South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust 1,530 1,472 1,472 South London Healthcare NHS Trust 1,809 1,809 1,745 South West London and St George’s Mental Health NHS Trust 693 671 599 St George’s Healthcare NHS Trust 2,287 2,319 2,329 Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust 14 14 15 University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 2,123 2,202 2,231 West London Mental Health NHS Trust 1,290 1,199 1,080 West Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 698 638 612 Whipps Cross University Hospital NHS Trust 1,141 1,162 n/a Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 783 1,199 1,154 Your Healthcare 141 148 156

Primary Care Trusts 5,820 2,240 541 Barking and Dagenham PCT 18 15 3 Barnet PCT 278 279 n/a Bexley Care Trust 777 Brent Teaching PCT 211 9 10 Bromley PCT 236 212 12 Camden PCT 211 228 n/a City and Hackney Teaching PCT 261 26 16 Croydon PCT 30 n/a n/a Ealing PCT 2421011 Enfield PCT 196 1 n/a Greenwich Teaching PCT 221 5 5 Hammersmith and Fulham PCT 37 15 12 Haringey Teaching PCT 144 10 n/a Harrow PCT 146 n/a n/a Havering PCT 528 449 2 Hillingdon PCT 231 233 7 Hounslow PCT 222 Islington PCT 222 5 25 Kensington and Chelsea PCT 700 3 3 Kingston PCT 2 n/a n/a Lambeth PCT 250 4 5 Lewisham PCT 1849486 Newham PCT 281 n/a n/a Redbridge PCT 84 85 15 Richmond and Twickenham PCT 292 269 283 Southwark PCT 210 n/a n/a Sutton and Merton PCT 258 239 n/a Tower Hamlets PCT 304 n/a n/a Waltham Forest PCT 10 4 3 Wandsworth PCT 15 33 28 Westminster PCT 836 839W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 840W

NHS hospital and community health services: qualified nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff in the London strategic health authority area by organisation as at 30 September each specified year Full time equivalent 2010 2011 2012

London Strategic Health Authority 2 1 2 n/a = Not applicable. Notes: 1. Full-time equivalent figures are rounded to the nearest whole number. 2. As a consequence of TCS (Transforming Community Services) the former provider arm of some PCTs may have transferred into local acute trusts, this can be seen in the large increase in staff numbers at Ealing Hospital NHS Trust for example. For this reason we have supplied figures for all NHS organisations. Data Quality: The Health and Social Care Information Centre seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. Methods are continually being updated to improve data quality where changes impact on figures already published. This is assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is footnoted in relevant analyses. Source: Health and Social Care Information Centre Non-Medical Workforce Census

School Milk Mr Harper: No Home Office funding for research into the prevention of human trafficking in 2012-13 was Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health allocated. whether he is considering adopting a cap-based Funding for research projects is considered as required. solution to the nursery milk scheme. [163674] The Home Office has granted £44,266, in total, to the Refugee Council and The Children’s Society for a joint Dr Poulter: The Department is analysing evidence bid to undertake a scoping review of the practical care and responses received to the Next Steps for Nursery arrangements for trafficked children. This will add value Milk consultation. A decision about the future operation to our understanding of the issues affecting the lives of of the nursery milk scheme will be made after full this vulnerable group of young people and will be useful consideration is given to the evidence, responses and in shaping future policy and enhancing practice in this other relevant information. area. In 2012-13, the Home Office paid £1.5 million to the Ministry of Justice, to fund the victim care contract for adult victims of trafficking in England and Wales. HOME DEPARTMENT The victim care contract will be retendered for 2014-15 and the funding position will be kept under review. Glastonbury Festival Budgets for research and rehabilitation in 2014-15 have not yet been agreed. Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many new psychoactive substances Property were identified by her Department’s forensic early warning system at the Glastonbury festival in (a) 2013, (b) 2012 Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for and (c) 2011. [163612] the Home Department what the (a) location and (b) value is of any property her Department owns in Mr Jeremy Browne: The Home Office Forensic Early Scotland. [160282] Warning System (FEWS) identified 13 different new psychoactive substances, most in more than one sample, Mr Harper: The Home Department owns one property at the Glastonbury festival in 2011. Of these, nine are in Scotland: Dungavel House Immigration Removal currently controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act Centre, Strathaven, Lanarkshire ML10 6RF.This property 1971. Together with the Advisory Council we continue was valued in March 2011 at £4.6 million. to develop the evidence on these, and other so called ‘legal highs’, as they are identified by FEWS, taking legislative action when the evidence base supports it. There was no Glastonbury festival in 2012. FEWS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT attended the 2013 Glastonbury festival which ended last week. The results from the samples analysed at the Devolution 2013 festival are not yet available. Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for Human Trafficking International Development if she will place in the Library any concordats which her Department or the public Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for body for which she is responsible have with the devolved the Home Department how much funding her Administrations. [163154] Department allocated in 2012-13 and has allocated in 2014-15 for (a) research into the prevention of human Mr Duncan: DFID does not have any concordats trafficking and (b) rehabilitation of victims of human with counterparts in the devolved Administrations of trafficking. [160493] Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. 841W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 842W

Dominican Republic JUSTICE Burglary

Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of International Development what aid the Government State for Justice what proportion of people convicted provided (a) directly and (b) via multilateral agencies of burglary offences were given custodial sentences to support judicial and penal reform in the Dominican in each of the last five years for which figures are Republic in each of the last five years. [163668] available. [161484]

Jeremy Wright: The number of offenders found guilty, Mr Duncan: There has been no bilateral funding sentenced and sentenced to immediate custody at all provided to multilateral agencies supporting judicial courts for burglary offences, with immediate custody and penal reform in the Dominican Republic in the last rate (the proportion of offenders sentenced who are five years. The FCO has provided some support to the sentenced to immediate custody), in England and Wales, judicial and penal systems from their own budget. from 2008 to 2012, can be viewed in the table.

Offenders found guilty, sentenced and sentenced to immediate custody at all courts for burglary offences, with immediate custody rate, England and Wales, 2008-121,2 Outcome 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Found guilty 23,882 22,983 23,909 25,446 22,427 Sentenced 23,651 22,765 23,599 25,189 22,083 Of which: Suspended sentence 2,432 2,374 2,600 2,769 2,600 Immediate custody 9,960 10,028 10,447 12,181 11,422 Immediate custody rate3 (%) 42.1 44.1 44.3 48.4 51.7 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 The proportion of offenders sentenced who are sentenced to immediate custody. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice.

Legal Aid Scheme Very High Cost Cases are defined by the Legal Aid Agency as those cases in which a legal aid representation David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for order has been granted on or after 3 October 2011 and, Justice how much was paid in legal aid fees to (a) Mr if the case were to proceed to trial, would likely last Mohammed Tayyab Khan and (b) Mr Dean Kershaw; more than 60 days. There is no separate budget within and what the total amount paid in legal aid fees was the overall legal aid forecast for such cases, and as such arising from the case of Crown v Ali and Others held at the information requested is not held. Stafford Crown Court between May and September 2011. [158565] A breakdown of spending on both civil and criminal legal aid is contained in the Legal Services Commission Jeremy Wright: The information is not readily available. (now Legal Aid Agency) Annual Report. Each year the I will write to my hon. Friend as soon as the information Ministry of Justice lays this Annual Report in Parliament has been collated by the Legal Aid Agency. ahead of publication, meaning it is available to all Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Members. The 2012-13 Legal Services Commission Annual Justice (1) what (a) proportion and (b) amount of his Report was laid in Parliament on 25 June. Department’s criminal legal aid budget was allocated Information on the amount of legal aid spending in to high value cases in each of the last three years; cases involving bank fraud is not available. The Legal [161085] Aid Agency (LAA) funds legal services within broad (2) if he will place in the Library a breakdown of categories of law, such as public law and immigration how his Department’s criminal legal aid budget has and asylum. Legal aid spending on bank fraud cannot been spent in each of the last three years; [161124] be disaggregated from other spending on fraud matters. (3) what amount his Department spent in each of the The amount spent on fraud matters in each of the last last three years on legal cases involving bank fraud. three years was: [161086] Fraud matters costs (£ million) Jeremy Wright: At £2 billion a year we have one of the most expensive legal aid systems in the world and 2009-10 224.84 must ensure we get best value for every penny of taxpayers’ money spent. We have recently finished consulting on a 2010-11 213.82 number of proposals to reform legal aid and are now carefully examining all the responses. 2011-12 224.22 843W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 844W

Jeremy Wright: The Legal Aid Agency (LAA) holds Notes: 1. The above costs include VAT and disbursements. information in relation to the total cost of legal and 2. These include crime lower claims, crime higher—Litigator Graduated number of acts of assistance provided in North Wales Fee Scheme, Advocate Graduated Fee Scheme and Very High Cost (as defined by LAA procurement area boundaries) and Case bills paid, as well as the costs paid by Her Majesty’s’ Courts and the number of legal aid offices in England and Wales Tribunals Services on Crown Court cases. for each of the past five financial years. 3. They exclude costs paid by the Court of Appeal, Supreme Court, House of Lords and Senior Courts Costs Office. The information requested is detailed in the tables: Legal Aid Scheme: Travellers Legal aid in North Wales 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Costs paid 5.95 6.67 6.04 6.86 6.83 (1) how much funding the Legal Services Commission in £ million has provided for Travellers to provide representation at Number of 22,197 24,383 25,352 23,435 22,538 (a) planning inquiries and (b) court cases on planning acts of in each of the last five years; [160151] assistance (2) how much funding has been provided to Travellers under the exceptional funding scheme relating to planning Number of offices in England and Wales issues in each of the last five years; [160149] 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 (3) how much funding has been provided through Civil 3,627 3,585 3,206 3,394 2,988 the Legal Services Commission to the Community contracts Law Partnership for the provision of legal advice for Crime 2,230 2,245 2,137 2,418 2,309 Travellers on planning in each of the last five years. contracts [160153] Please note: Jeremy Wright: The Legal Aid Agency (former Legal The costs include VAT and disbursements such as expenses, third party costs, and costs paid by Her Majesty’s Courts and Services Commission) is unable to say how much funding Tribunals Services (HMCTS) on crown court cases. has been provided for Travellers under the exceptional funding scheme or for representation at planning inquiries The information does not include costs paid by the Court of Appeal, Supreme Court, House of Lords, and Senior Court and court cases on planning, because it does not hold Costs Office. Solicitor advocates are treated as Barristers and information to indicate whether clients in such cases costs paid to them are not included as part of the firm. belong to particular ethnic groups. The LAA does not record the number of people who qualified The Community Law Partnership is contracted with for legal aid. Instead it records the number of ‘acts of assistance’. the Legal Aid Agency (LAA) to provide face-to-face One individual may receive a number of separate acts of assistance, and telephone advice. In face-to-face advice, the LAA and one act of assistance can help more than one person. does not record travellers separately. In telephone advice, A solicitor office may hold both a civil and a criminal contract it is not possible to distinguish the costs relating to and the aggregate of civil and criminal offices does not reflect the planning from other costs associated with housing matters. total number of providers.

Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Legal Costs whether Travellers (a) facing planning enforcement cases and (b) applying for retrospective planning Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice permission, are eligible for legal aid; and what his (1) how much his Department spent on (a) external policy is on using money from the public purse to assist legal advice from Queen’s Counsel and (b) other Travellers in challenging planning enforcement external legal advice (i) between 7 May 2010 and decisions of the Secretary of State for Communities 4 September 2012 and (ii) since 4 September 2012; and Local Government. [160152] [154137] Jeremy Wright: Under the Legal Aid, Sentencing and (2) what the 20 highest amounts paid for external Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, civil legal aid is legal advice by his Department were in (a) 2010, (b) not generally available for planning matters—including 2011 and (c) 2012; to whom such payments were made; retrospective planning permission. Where an individual and for what reasons such legal advice was sought; faces eviction from their home (including the land on [154138] which the home is located) legal aid is generally available (3) how much his Department spent on external legal (subject to means and merits) in relation to that matter. advice (a) between 7 May 2010 and 4 September 2012 However, where the individual is a trespasser, legal aid and (b) since 4 September 2012; [154139] is not available in relation to eviction. (4) what the highest day rate paid for external legal advice by his Department was since 7 May 2010; Legal Aid Scheme: Wales [154140] (5) what the 20 highest amounts paid for external Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice legal advice by his Department were in (a) 2010, (b) (1) what the cost was of legal aid in North Wales in 2011 and (c) 2012; to whom such sums were paid; and each of the last five years; [156694] for what reasons the legal advice was sought. [158633] (2) how many legal firms have participated in the legal aid system in each of the last five years; [156696] Jeremy Wright: The information I am providing covers (3) how many people qualified for legal aid in North external legal spend by the Ministry of Justice and its Wales in each of the last five years. [156697] Executive Agencies (Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals 845W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 846W

Service, and the National Offender Management Service). d. Q.4 154140 It does not cover spend on external legal advice by the As with Q.2 above, the accounts systems and the Department’s arm’s length bodies. manner in which the Department is invoiced for external In answering the questions I have assumed that external legal advice means that it is not possible to identify the legal spend in this context means spend on legal advice highest day rate paid between 7 May 2010 and 4 September given to the Department other than by the Ministry of 2012, and from 4 September 2012 onward. The only Justice Legal Directorate or the Treasury Solicitor’s way this information might be available would be to Department. The Treasury Solicitor’s Department conducts examine a substantial number of individual invoices the majority of the litigation for the Department and spanning several years. This would incur disproportionate therefore the majority of spend on litigation is not cost for the Department and I am therefore unable to reflected in the following figures. answer this question. The information I can provide is: Prison Service a. Ql. 154137 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Breakdown of external legal spend by counsel and how many prison staff were dismissed for conducting other suppliers for 2012-13 FY: inappropriate relationships with prisoners in (a) 2010, [159428] Supplier Spend (£) (b) 2011 and (c) 2012. Counsel 109,804.72 Jeremy Wright: The definition of an inappropriate Other external supplier 3,693,175.21 relationship is any relationship with prisoners, ex prisoners, partners, immediate family or close associates involved in criminal activities if not formally declared to the Counsel here means all counsel and not just Queen’s governor or head of NOMS unit as a potential ‘Conflict Counsel. This is because the supplier information on of Interest’. The information setting out how many our accounts systems does not always specify if a particular prison staff were dismissed solely for having an barrister is a Queen’s Counsel or not, and because in inappropriate relationship with a prisoner(s)1 is set out some cases the Chambers rather than the individual in the table: barrister is recorded. The figure only includes Counsel instructed directly by the Department rather than through Number the Treasury Solicitor’s Department. Please refer to the information supplied in relation to Q.3 for the total 2010 10 external spend for the 2012-13 FY. 2011 9 It is not possible to provide this information for other 2012 9 financial years because the way in which the Department It should be noted that all corrupt activity contains recorded legal spend in previous years did not breakdown an element of inappropriate relationships with prisoners, the data in this manner. To ascertain the breakdown for and is usually a precursor to such activity and so previous financial years would incur disproportionate numbers will be greater for those who were dismissed cost as it would require examining a substantial number for having been involved in an inappropriate relationship of financial records spanning several years. and which also contained another element of corruption, b. Q.2 154138/158633 such as the conveying of mobile phones which would be an offence under the Offender Management Act. The accounts systems and the manner in which the Corruption in the Prison Service is not acceptable Department is invoiced for external legal advice means and will be sought out and prevented. This Government that it is not possible to identify the 20 highest amounts are committed to ensuring that the agencies remain free paid for advice, by whom, and for what reason the from corruption and that those who do commit illegal advice was sought in each of the years requested. acts are dealt with swiftly and reported to the prosecuting Additionally, the information is recorded by supplier authorities. and not by matter. The only way to identify some of this information would be to examine and cross-reference a 1 The information provided has been drawn from live administrative substantial number of individual invoices spanning several data systems which may be amended at any time. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected years. This would incur disproportionate cost for the is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording Department and I am therefore unable to answer this system. question. Furthermore, to provide details on why advice was sought from external legal suppliers could raise Prisoner Escapes issues of legal privilege. c. Q.3 154139 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) how many prisoners who escaped during transit in Total external legal spend by the Ministry of Justice, the last five years are still to be recaptured; and of what HMCTS and NOMS by financial year: offence each escapee had been convicted; [154387]

Financial year Total external legal spend (£) (2) how many escapes there were during prisoner transit in each of the last five years. [154388] 2010-11 4,501,861.00 2011-12 3,260,958.00 Jeremy Wright: The following table shows the number 2012-13 3,802,979.93 of escapes that have occurred while prisoners are in transit between 2007-08 and 2011-12, the most recent 847W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 848W period for which data are available. The table includes proportion of prisoners who have participated in the escorts conducted by contractors under the Prison Escort One3One programme have entered into (a) full-time and Custody Services contract and HM Prison Service and (b) part-time employment upon release from staff. prison in the last 12 months. [162357] All prisoners who escaped in transit between 2007-08 and 2011-12 have subsequently been recaptured. Jeremy Wright: This information is not held by the Department. The work in prison policy ensures that The total number of escapes from custody has been prisoners are employed purposefully when in prison falling since 1995 when central records began, despite and we believe there are advantages in work in prison in an increasing prison population. The majority of escorts preparing prisoners for employment following release. take place without incident; escapes involving outside The Government’s plans for new resettlement prisons assistance, particularly armed assistance, are extremely will help ex-offenders back into employment after release rare. by providing rehabilitative services in prison and a Table 1: Number of prisoners escaping while in transit, by financial tailored package of supervision and support in the year, between 1 April 2007 and 31 March 2012 community. Number of escapes Figures for 2011-12 show that 26.6 % of prisoners 2007-08 1 were released from prison into employment, as published 2008-09 3 in the National Offender Management Service Annual 2009-10 2 Report 2011/12: Management Information Addendum1. 2010-11 1 The figures for 2012-13 are scheduled for publication on 2011-12 7 25 July. In addition, from March 2012 all prisoners Note: eligible for jobseeker’s allowance and who have claimed These figures have been drawn from live administrative data systems in advance of, or in the 13 weeks following release, have which may be amended at any time. Although care is taken when been mandated onto the DWP work programme. processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to 1 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. _data/file/163292/noms-annual-report-2011-12- The Ministry of Justice is currently taking action to addendum.pdf.pdf reduce the risk of escape further, particularly the risk of escape from escort. However, this risk remains low with RSPCA only one escape from escort contractors for every 72,510 prisoners passing through Prisoner Escort Custody Services custody. Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much legal aid the RSPCA claimed in (a) Prisons: Corruption the five years prior to 2010 and (b) in each year since. [161614] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what training is expected of employees in HM Prison Jeremy Wright: The Legal Aid Agency (LAA) has Service in dealing with corruption (a) on commencing not provided any legal aid funding to the RSPCA in the their employment and (b) on an ongoing basis as part period in question. of continuing professional development. [159443]

Jeremy Wright: Corruption in the Prison Service is not acceptable and will be sought out and prevented. PRIME MINISTER This Government are committed to ensuring that the agencies remain free from corruption and that those Ian Livingston who do commit illegal acts are dealt with swiftly and reported to the prosecuting authorities. Ann McKechin: To ask the Prime Minister (1) what Corruption ‘prevention’ activity and the raising of (a) assessment and (b) recommendations the Adviser awareness amongst staff remains at the heart of the on Ministers’ Interests has made on the scale of NOMS corruption prevention strategy. (a) All new shareholdings in British Telecom held by Ian Livingston; officers and operational support grades receive training [163414] in (1) Expected Standards of Behaviour and (2) (2) what (a) oral and (b) written discussions he has Conditioning, Manipulation and Corruption Prevention had with the Independent Adviser on Minister’s Interests awareness. (b) For all new and current staff within an on the appointment of Ian Livingston as Minister for establishment training is conducted on an ongoing basis Trade. [163401] and is promoted at a local, regional and national level. During 2011 a new DVD/training package covering The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the conditioning and manipulation and the risks of engaging answer I gave to the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland inappropriate relationships was rolled out to all public (Helen Goodman) on 4 July 2013, Official Report, sector prisons. In April 2012 it was rolled out to contracted column 733W. prisons. Prisons: Employment Kazakhstan

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Prime Minister what human pursuant to the answer of 17 May 2013, Official rights issues were raised during his visit to Kazakhstan; Report, column 22W, on prisons: employment, what and if he will make a statement. [163520] 849W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 850W

The Prime Minister: The UK has a range of interests The APF states that regional bodies (e.g. devolved in Kazakhstan covering prosperity, security and values, Administrations, local authorities and local enterprise and is looking to secure a step-change in its bilateral partnerships (LEPs)) will continue to be responsible for relations. The Strategic Partnership that I signed during developing the business, financial and legal cases required my visit sets out important areas of mutual interest, by—the regulation on PSOs, and for demonstrating the including the promotion of democracy and human importance of particular air services to the economic rights, and provides a structure to make progress. development of areas of the UK. Where the case for a We have a strong record of funding human rights PSO has been made the Government will agree, subject projects and raising issues of concern with the Kazakh to periodic review, the appropriate level of support we Government, and I discussed these issues with the President. will provide alongside regional support. Pakistan Cycling: Training

Paul Flynn: To ask the Prime Minister what matters Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport in respect of Pakistan’s continued possession of nuclear what funding has been allocated to Bikeability cycle weapons he discussed with his Pakistani counterpart training as a result of decisions announced in spending during his recent visit to Pakistan. [163634] round 2013, Cm 8639. [163536]

The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the Norman Baker: The Department needs time to determine statement I made in the House on Afghanistan and EU the implications of the recent Spending Round and will Council on 2 July 2013, Official Report, columns 751-53, set out more details in due course. However we are where I set out my discussions with Prime Minister working to ensure the best result possible. Sharif of Pakistan. Driving Offences: Speed Limits

Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport SCOTLAND how many speeding offences have been committed in (a) Barnsley Central constituency and (b) South Yorkshire Public Expenditure in each year since 2010. [163673]

Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Hammond: The Department does not hold Scotland what representations he received from the this information. South Yorkshire Road Safety Partnership, Scottish Government on the spending review. [163067] which includes the police, are responsible for the collection of this data. Michael Moore: Scotland Office Ministers have received no representations from the Scottish Government on Driving: Licensing the spending review. Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to publish the Green Paper on graduated licensing for young drivers as announced TRANSPORT in March 2013. [163193] Aviation: Greater London Stephen Hammond: We intend to publish the Green Paper later in the year. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) whether the funding announced in the Freight 2013 Spending Round to improve air links to London will be available to all regional airports; [163345] Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) whether the funding announced in the 2013 Transport what recent research he has conducted into Spending Round to improve air links to London will be the volumes of freight moved (a) to and (b) from used to restore links that no longer operate; [163347] container ports in the UK by (i) road and (ii) rail in (3) what proportion of matched funding must be each of the last 10 years. [163703] provided as a condition of accessing the funding announced to improve air links to London; [163348] Stephen Hammond: We have not undertaken such research and the information requested is not held (4) what criteria he will use to assess bids by regional centrally. airports for funding announced in the 2013 Spending Round to improve air links to London. [163349] However, as part of its long-term planning process, Network Rail recently published a draft Freight Market Mr Simon Burns: The importance of regional air Study for consultation. This is available at connectivity to London airports is recognised in the www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/planning-policies-and- Aviation Policy Framework (APF), which confirms that plans/long-term-planning-process/market-studies/freight/ the Government would be inclined to support proposals It gives an indication of the growth in ports and domestic by devolved and regional bodies to establish Public intermodal container traffic carried by rail from 1998-2011. Service Obligations (PSOs) that comply with the specific conditions within EU law (Regulation 1008/2008), where Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for necessary to protect services between other UK airports Transport what steps he is taking to increase multi- and London. modal freight capacity in the UK port sector. [163704] 851W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 852W

Stephen Hammond: The ports sector has, through (2) when he became aware that High Speed 2 Ltd has commercial investment in co-operation with Network not carried out a feasibility study of Option 8 at Rail and other transport providers, ensured that major Euston station. [163713] ports are generally well equipped to make good use of rail and coastal shipping where these are viable alternatives Mr Simon Burns: My right hon. Friend the Secretary to road transport. of State for Transport was advised in December 2012 The Government continues to encourage rail freight that a revised design, originally termed Option 8, was at ports, and coastal shipping, through appropriate being progressed by HS2 Ltd for Euston station that incentives. would deliver the required functionality with less disruption and at a lower cost. The Department for Transport is Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for currently consulting on a range of design refinements Transport what recent discussions his Department has for Phase 1 of HS2, including the design of Euston had with Network Rail regarding freight capacity at station. Once the consultation closes on 11 July, the UK ports. [163705] Government will then fully consider the responses before deciding on whether to proceed with the proposed Mr Simon Burns: This is an operational matter for revision to the design of Euston station. Network Rail in collaboration with the port authorities and the freight train operating companies. Network Rail and the freight operators work closely with the Network Rail ports to provide appropriate and adequate rail connectivity. Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) if he will bring forward legislative proposals Transport what proportion of (a) passenger and (b) to enable Network Rail to be considered a public body freight services shifted from road to rail in each year for the purposes of auditing by the National Audit since 1993-94. [163706] Office; [163618] Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not have (2) if he will bring forward legislative proposals to information on modal shifts. ensure that Network Rail is audited by the National However, the statistics published in table TSGB0101 Audit Office; and if he will make a statement; [163619] at the following link show the proportion of passenger (3) what plans his Department has to make Network kilometres by mode of transport since 1952: Rail subject to scrutiny by the National Audit Office; https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/tsgb01- and if he will make a statement. [163620] modal-comparisons Table TSGB0401 at the following link shows domestic Mr Simon Burns: Network Rail is a private sector freight transport by mode since 1953: company limited by guarantee, as determined by the https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/tsgb04- Office for National Statistics in line with internationally freight accepted standards. The company’s activities are governed by the regulatory regime provided by the Railways Act High Speed 2 Railway Line 1993 as amended. It is right that the National Audit Office and Parliament Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for should hold the Department for Transport to account Transport what amount HS2 Ltd and his Department for the way that public money is used to secure public have spent on outside bodies promoting High Speed 2, services. by contractor company. [R] [163083] However, we see no benefit in duplicating, through the National Audit Office, the Network Rail scrutiny Mr Simon Burns: HS2 Ltd and the Department have and oversight responsibilities that Parliament has vested used two contractors in promoting HS2: in the independent Office of Rail Regulation through By HS2 Ltd legislation. Westbourne Communications Ltd—£80,304.00 Tomboy Films UK Ltd—£86,043.60 Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans his Department has to improve By DFT the level of public scrutiny on the performance of Westbourne Communications Ltd—£23,952.00 Network Rail. [163621] In addition to the figures above, HS2 Ltd currently have two staff from Westbourne on secondment, specifically Mr Simon Burns: The independent Office of Rail working on the promotion of HS2. Costs for these Regulation (ORR) has a wide range of powers for secondments paid to Westbourne to end June are £84,480 scrutinising and enforcing Network Rail’s performance and fall to HS2 Ltd’s communications professional of its obligations. The Department for Transport is services budget. working closely with ORR to improve the quality, transparency and availability of information about both Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for Network Rail and train operators’ performance and Transport (1) if he will instruct High Speed 2 Ltd to efficiency, so as to bear down on industry performance carry out a feasibility study of Option 8 at Euston and costs and give rail users the tools to hold the station; [163712] industry to account. 853W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 854W

Railways: Freight they were in the tonnage tax. The cumulative training commitment for 2012-13 is therefore around 1,800 officer Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for trainees. The tonnage tax scheme imposes no numeric Transport (1) what assessment he has made of the requirement in relation to UK ratings’ training, but effect that the introduction of Network Rail’s new training has so far been provided for around 20 ratings track access charges for freight operating companies to officer conversion trainees in 2012-13. will have on annual rail freight volumes from and to UK ports; [163701] Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what research his Department has conducted into tonnage (2) what assessment he has made of the effect that tax levels that currently apply in other EU countries. Network Rail’s introduction of track access charges for freight operating companies will have on annual [163987] volumes of freight carried by (a) rail and (b) road. Stephen Hammond: No specific research has been [163702] carried out. However, the Government are aware of the tax rates which operate in comparable tonnage tax Mr Simon Burns: The framework for Network Rail’s schemes in other EU countries. track access charges is established by the independent rail regulator, the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR), Travel having regard to the Government’s objectives for the continuing development of a competitive, efficient and Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for dynamic private sector rail freight industry. Within that Transport how many officials in his Department (a) framework, the level of the charges is a matter for are working on cycling and active travel issues and (b) Network Rail. It is for both bodies to assess the impact are projected to be so working in (i) 2014-15 and of their proposals, on the basis of consultation with the (ii) 2015-16. [163069] industry and wider interests. Shipping Norman Baker: Currently, 9.9 full-time equivalent officials are allocated to roles directly related to cycling and active travel. However, many other officials are Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport involved in cycling and active travel in the Department what research his Department has conducted into (a) in related policy areas and in specialist disciplines. training and (b) employment incentives for domestic No changes in staff levels are currently planned in seafarers that currently apply in other EU countries. 2014-15 and 2015-16. However, the Department regularly [163986] reviews its resource allocation through corporate planning to align resources with our business plan objectives. Stephen Hammond: No specific research was carried out. However, in 2011 the Department commissioned an independent review of the economic requirement for trained seafarers in the UK. Its final report is on the TREASURY Government website at: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Banks: Foreign Workers attachment_data/file/3540/economic-requirement-report.pdf and includes comparisons of the training regimes in the Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer United Kingdom, Holland and Denmark. (1) how many jobs in banks with a full or majority stake held by the Government have been outsourced overseas Tonnage Tax since 2008; [163288] (2) what the policy of UK Financial Investments Ltd Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (UKFI) is on the practice of overseas outsourcing of what the core training commitment is for each company jobs by those financial institutions in which UKFI has group elected to the Tonnage Tax scheme in 2013-14 to a stake. [163310] date; how many officer training places this converts to; and whether any company groups intend to observe the Sajid Javid: The Government’s shareholdings in Lloyds scheme’s voluntary link to provide training for UK Banking Group (LBG) and the Royal Bank of Scotland ratings. [163984] (RBS) are managed on a commercial and arm’s length basis by UK Financial Investments Ltd (UKFI). Stephen Hammond: The tonnage tax training requirement UKFI’s role is to manage the stakes and not to is monitored on the basis of training commitment years, manage the banks. which run from October to September, rather than on a Decisions on staffing are operational decisions and financial year basis. Figures for the 2013-14 training are for the banks themselves. The Government are commitment year are not yet available. The identity of therefore unable to comment on this matter. tonnage tax companies and groups is tax confidential, and I am therefore unable to provide information in Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks respect of individual companies and groups. Approved core training commitments for the 2012-13 Dan Rogerson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer training commitment year are for around 600 new first (1) when the Government plans to publish the response year officer trainees. Additionally, company groups are to the consultation on Alcohol Fraud: legislative measures required to provide second and third year training for to tackle existing and emerging threats to the UK trainees taken on during the previous two years when alcohol duty regime; [163337] 855W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 856W

(2) what legislative proposals the Government plans (2) how many notices of minimum wage underpayments to bring forward to tackle alcohol duty fraud; [163338] were issued by HM Revenue and Customs to companies (3) if he will publish each response received to the located in (a) Newcastle Upon Tyne North constituency, consultation on Alcohol Fraud: legislative measures to (b) the North East and (c) England in each of the last tackle existing and emerging threats to the UK alcohol five years; and how many such companies (i) paid duty regime. [163339] within 14 days, (ii) paid within 28 days and (iii) took their case to appeal; [163199] Sajid Javid: The Government intends to publish a (3) how many complaints regarding minimum wage summary of the responses received to the 2012 consultation non-compliance were received by HM Revenue and on alcohol fraud, and announce what action it intends Customs regarding companies located in (a) Newcastle to take to address fraud, in the near future. Upon Tyne North constituency, (b) the North East and (c) England in each of the last five years; and what Fracking proportion of these complaints resulted in prosecutions. [163200]

Mark Menzies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Gauke: HMRC does not keep statistics related to if he will take steps to ensure that any community the number of unannounced inspections carried out. benefit revenue that is derived from shale gas is apportioned HMRC does not keep statistics at constituency level to people living in the immediate vicinity of well sites. and, since April 2011, no longer captures complaints or [162967] the outcomes of its investigations by reference to government regions or country. Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf As a consequence of the way in which contact of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. information for employers is recorded, HMRC is not The industry trade body UK Onshore Operators able to produce exact statistics relating to companies Group (UKOOG) published a Community Engagement located in England. Charter on 27 June setting out their commitments on The data in the table relate to notice of underpayments engagement with communities that host shale gas by compliance teams based in England. Please note that developments. Notices of Underpayment were not introduced until This also sets their proposals on how communities April 2009. will benefit directly from developments in their areas and commits to provide a share of proceeds at production Notice of Underpayment Paid within Appeals stage of 1% of revenues. Further, as part of this commitment Financial year issued 14 days received they have stated that approximately two thirds of this benefit will be allocated to the local community; the rest 2009-10 352 175 6 will be allocated at county level. 2010-11 877 494 32 UKOOG will provide further detail on fund allocation 2011-12 705 426 24 later in the year and will be working with interested 2012-13 540 340 13 parties and councils over the course of the next few HMRC does not record the timescale in which the months to finalise plans. employer pays arrears to workers. HMRC does, however, record where an employer is entitled to pay a reduced Mark Menzies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer penalty charge by paying arrears to workers and the whether it is his policy to provide a gold standard of reduced penalty charge to HMRC within 14 days. regulation on shale gas operations before any potential The data in the following table relate to complaint move to the extraction phase. [162968] cases allocated to compliance teams based in England for the period requested. Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Financial year Complaint cases Prosecutions The UK has a strong regulatory system which provides a comprehensive and fit for purpose regime for shale 2008-09 1,922 4 gas exploration, but we want continuously to improve 2009-10 2,264 0 it. The Office of Unconventional Gas and Oil works 2010-11 1,734 1 closely with the regulators and industry to ensure that 2011-12 1,345 0 the regulatory system applied to potential shale gas 2012-13 1,114 1 production is as streamlined as possible, while remaining robust enough to safeguard public safety and protect Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the environment. how many allegations of non-compliance with national minimum wage legislation in (a) total, (b) each region Minimum Wage of the UK and (c) the London borough of Harrow were received by HM Revenue and Customs in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12 and (iii) 2012-13; and if he will Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the make a statement. [163390] Exchequer (1) how many unannounced minimum wage inspections were carried out by HM Revenue and Mr Gauke: HMRC does not keep statistics at Customs on companies located in (a) Newcastle Upon constituency level and since April 2011 does not collate Tyne North constituency, (b) the North East and (c) information relating to complaints about non-payment England in each of the last five years; [163197] of the minimum wage by government region. I refer the 857W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 858W hon. Member to my answer of 4 February 2013, Official Sajid Javid [holding answer 1 July 2013]: The Report, column 18W,for the total number of complaints Government’s shareholdings are managed on an arm’s received in 2010-11 and 2011-12. The total number of length, commercial basis by UK Financial Investments. complaints received in 2012-13 was 1,408. The table It would not be appropriate for the Treasury staff to be provides a breakdown by region for 2010-11. involved in RBS’ or Ulster Bank’s operational issues. Ulster Bank remains an important part of core RBS Government region Number of complaints and a major lender in Northern Ireland. It is in the Scotland 128 UK’s interest that Ireland has a successful economy Wales 86 and a stable banking system. London 334 North East 92 Northern Ireland 32 WORK AND PENSIONS West Midlands 167 Merseyside 22 Atos Healthcare Yorks/Humberside 186 North West 231 Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for East Midlands 103 Work and Pensions how many Atos assessment centres East 218 there are in the UK; and how many have disabled South East 250 parking facilities. [163682] South West 132 Esther McVey: Atos undertakes work capability assessments (WCAs) and, in some parts of the UK, New Enterprise Allowance: Barnsley personal independence payment (PIP) assessments on behalf of the Department. For WCAs, there are 123 Dan Jarvis: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer permanent Atos assessment centre locations and 68 have what estimate he has made of the number of businesses disabled parking facilities. in Barnsley Central constituency who will receive the Atos’ delivery model for PIP assessments is different £2,000 enterprise allowance. [163675] to that for WCAs as it utilises the premises of supply chain partners already established in the health care Mr Gauke: Constituency level estimates of those sector such as private physiotherapy practices and hospitals. likely to benefit from the employment allowance are not Atos are contractually required to provide accommodation available. In total, up to 1.25 million employers will for face-to-face consultations which meets the Department’s benefit from the allowance, with over 90% of this benefit standards including access to suitable parking. Atos has going to small businesses with fewer than 50 employees. up to 189 sites which it can currently use and will make more sites available as volumes of PIP assessments rise. Stamp Duty Land Tax Children: Poverty

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Work if he will bring forward a stamp duty rebate for homes and Pensions what recent estimate he has made of the participating in the Green Deal. [163185] number of children in the UK living in poverty; and what steps the Government are taking to substantially reduce child poverty in the near future. [163710] Sajid Javid: Following the Chancellor’s announcement of £200 million additional capital to encourage uptake Esther McVey: The Child Poverty Act 2010 sets four of Green Deal in 2011 autumn statement, the Government income-based UK-wide targets to be met by 2020. The are using £125 million of this to fund a generous targets are based on the proportion of children living in Cashback scheme to be claimed by those who take up households with relative low income, combined low Green Deal from January 2013. income and material deprivation, absolute low income Other uses of the additional capital include £12 million and persistent poverty (all before housing costs have of funding that has been allocated to seven cities across been taken into account). Estimates of these are published England to help pilot Green Deal in their regions. in the National Statistics Households Below Average The Government do not have any plans to introduce Income (HBAI) series. HBAI uses household income a SDLT relief for homes participating in the Green adjusted (or ‘equivalised’) for household size and Deal. composition, to provide a proxy for standard of living. However stamp duty land tax policy, like that of all UK figures for relative and absolute low income and taxes, is kept under review through the normal Budget combined low income and material deprivation for process. 2011/12 and persistent poverty for 2005-08 can be found in the latest HBAI publication, available at the following link: Ulster Bank https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/households- below-average-income-hbai-199495-to-201112 Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Relevant figures can be found in Table 4.1tr (on page how many of his Department’s staff at each level have 102) for the latest relative low income figures, table 4.2tr been transferred to Belfast to work on issues related to (on page 103) for the latest absolute low income figures the operation of Ulster Bank. [162560] and table 4.5tr (on page 106) for the latest combined 859W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 860W low income and material deprivation figures. The latest The WCA is an assessment of someone’s functional persistent poverty estimates can be found in table 7.1 tr capability, not just their condition. A disability or health (on page 248). condition will affect different people in different ways The evidence consistently shows that the best routes therefore it is important to treat people as individuals out of poverty are through parents being in work and and assess their capability for work, rather than labelling through a child’s educational achievement which can them because of their condition. stop a poor child becoming a poor adult. We are introducing the universal credit which will Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for reduce child poverty through making work pay and Work and Pensions how many people assessed by ESA50 providing an effective route out of poverty. Universal without a face-to-face interview were placed into the credit will improve work incentives by allowing individuals (a) support group and (b) work-related activity group to keep more of their income as they move into work, in each month from 1 July 2012. [163613] and by introducing a smoother and more transparent reduction of benefits when they increase their earnings. Mr Hoban: This information requested is not readily Universal credit will also reduce child poverty by re-focusing available and to provide it would incur disproportionate of entitlements on lower income in-work households cost. and having a simpler system that should lead to a considerable increase in the take-up compared to the Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work current complex system of benefits and tax credits. and Pensions (1) how many and what proportion of We are also firmly committed to giving poor children employment and support allowance claimants in the the best opportunities in life to help break the poverty work-related activity group are in employment 12 to cycle so they do not go on to become poor adults. 18 months after their claim; [163677] Targeting education as a route out of poverty, we are (2) how many and what proportion of employment investing £2.5 billion in the pupil premium to raise and support allowance claimants found fit for work are educational attainment of poor children, as well as in employment 12 to 18 months after their claim; 260,000 disadvantaged two-year-olds receiving 15 hours [163678] a week of free early years education. (3) how many and what proportion of jobseeker’s We want to develop better measures of child poverty allowance claimants are in employment 12 to 18 months which include but go beyond income to provide a more after their claim. [163680] accurate picture of the reality of child poverty and drive the right action. Our consultation on how best to measure Mr Hoban: Detailed information on the long term child poverty closed on 15 February. The complexity of destinations of employment and support allowance (ESA) the issue means that we need to take time to ensure we and jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) claimants is not readily have the best option for measuring child poverty, so that available and could be provided only at disproportionate we can ensure we properly tackle the causes. We will cost. publish our response as soon as we can. Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Employment and Support Allowance Pensions how many and what proportion of employment and support allowance claimants found fit for work Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for flow on to jobseeker’s allowance. [163679] Work and Pensions how often people with (a) rheumatoid arthritis, (b) cystic fibrosis and (c) multiple sclerosis Mr Hoban: It is not currently possible to provide were reassessed for employment and support allowance. information on the number of people found fit for work [163611] moving from employment support allowance (ESA) to jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) and to do so would incur Mr Hoban: Claimants with these health conditions disproportionate cost. do not have pre-determined intervals for reassessment. Everyone who claims employment and support allowance Industrial Health and Safety (ESA) will undergo periodic work capability assessments (WCAs) to ascertain whether they still meet the conditions Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for for the benefit. This is because entitlement to ESA is Work and Pensions what recent representations he has based on an individual’s functional ability rather than made to the European Union Employment Commissioner the condition itself. Individuals with lifetime impairments on the Commission’s current review of health and may be able to adapt to those conditions and take up safety policy; and if he will make a statement. [163405] some work. So it is important we can provide them with the right support to get back to work when it is appropriate. Mr Hoban: The Commission plans to review the A claimant for whom a return to work is considered entire suite of occupational health and safety Directives unlikely within two years will be reassessed after two by 2015. Member states must submit by December 2013 years. This is because, even for claimants who are unlikely reports on how they have practically implemented these to see an improvement in their health and who are directives. HSE is currently preparing the UK’s report. unlikely to sufficiently adapt to their condition, it is The Government will continue to argue through the important that we do not write them off completely. review that EU legislation should be risk based and However, this reassessment will not necessarily involve proportionate, and that burdens on business should be a face-to-face assessment—where possible, the Department reduced where possible, without reducing necessary may make a decision using paper-based evidence. protections. 861W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 862W

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hoban: Detailed policies on this measure are yet Work and Pensions what research his Department has to be decided. However current rules exempt claimants commissioned since May 2010 on making workplaces from serving waiting days where they have returned to safer; and if he will make a statement. [163407] jobseeker’s allowance within 12 weeks of the end of a previous claim to jobseeker’s allowance or a previous Mr Hoban: HSE has a statutory duty under the claim to another benefit, for example employment and Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 to conduct research support allowance. Youngpeople who receive jobseeker’s and publish the results. Since 2010 the focus of current allowance under severe hardship provisions are also research is devoted to occupational health, mainly in exempt. It is likely that these exemptions will be carried the area of long latency health risks. Other research forward to the new, extended seven-day waiting rule. covers major hazard and specialised industries and economic and statistical research. Further details can Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Work be found on the HSE website at: and Pensions what guidance his Department plans to http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/content/science-plan-2012- issue to staff in Jobcentre Plus on advice they can give 15.pdf to unemployed people who are in financial difficulties and are in the seven-day waiting period for jobseeker’s The annual science report to the HSE Board examines allowance on assistance they can access. [163715] how HSE uses, publishes and evaluates its commissioned research. Further details can be found on the HSE Mr Hoban: Subject to parliamentary approval, any website at: changes to the waiting day period will be supported http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/meetings/hseboard/2013/ through appropriate guidance being issued to Department 300113/pjanb1308.pdf for Work and Pensions staff. Occupational Health Industrial Health and Safety: Construction Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to reduce Work and Pensions how many fatal accidents occurred occupational ill-health. [163406] in the construction sector in the last year for which figures are available; and how many of the people who Esther McVey: Fitness for work: the Government were killed were (a) self-employed, (b) employed by response to ‘Health at work—an independent review of firms with fewer than 10 employees and (c) employed sickness absence’ was published in January 2013. It by firms with fewer than 50 employees. [163614] outlined a range of measures to support people with ill-health to remain in and return to work including a Mr Hoban: The figures for fatal accidents within the new health and work assessment and advisory service construction sector are provided in Table 1, by employment which will make occupational health expertise more status, including (a) the self-employed. These represent widely available to GPs, and those employees and employers the latest annual figures as published by the Health and who need it most. Safety Executive (HSE) on 3 July 2013. Social Security Benefits The figures are not available broken down by (b) employed by firms with fewer than 10 employees and Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for (c) employed by firms with fewer than 50 employees as, Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has made due to the often complex employment structures and of the effect of changes to working-age benefits on the transient nature of construction work, HSE is not household income. [163170] able to routinely record information on the precise size of these firms. Mr Hoban: The Department regularly produces Table 1: Fatal injuries to workers in the construction industry1 as assessments and analysis of the impacts of new policies, reported to all enforcing authorities 2012-132 which can be found at the Department’s website, and Great Britain Number keeps these up to date if impacts change. Employees 27 The Government regularly produce analysis of the Self-employed 12 cumulative impact of all coalition changes, including Total workers3 39 working-age benefits, on households across the income Members of the public 5 distribution. This information is published at every Total 44 Budget and other major fiscal events, in the interests of transparency. The most recent update was published 1 Statistics are identified by Standard Industrial Classification 2007 (SIC2007) Section F—Construction. with the spending round 2013 on 26 June. 2 Provisional. The publication of cumulative impacts is a coalition 3 The term ‘worker’ covers employees and self-employed combined. initiative and was not produced by the previous Administration. Jobseeker’s Allowance Vacancies: Internet

Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions what his policy is on exemptions to and Pensions how many vacancies have been posted in the new jobseeker’s allowance seven-day waiting rule; Universal Jobmatch since its inception, by occupation. and if he will make a statement. [163291] [155472] 863W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 864W

Mr Hoban: The number of new job vacancies, by Employer sector Job vacancies occupation, posted in Universal Jobmatch between its inception on 19 November 2012 and 30 April 2013 is Textile and clothing 977 detailed in the following table. manufacturing Transport and storage—Materials 8,828 Employer sector Job vacancies Travel, transportation and 4,096 tourism Accounting and auditing services 5,814 Waste management 1,866 Advertising and PR services 11,473 Wholesale trade/import-export 4,894 Aerospace and defence 2,155 Agriculture/forestry/fishing 1,739 Work Capability Assessment All 5,410 Architectural and design services 523 Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Automotive and parts 682 Work and Pensions how many people with (a) rheumatoid manufacturing arthritis, (b) cystic fibrosis and (c) multiple sclerosis Automotive sales and repair 10,882 services have undergone multiple work capability assessments [163676] Banking 2,280 since its introduction. Biotechnology/pharmaceuticals 528 Mr Hoban: The Department regularly publishes official Broadcasting, music and film 749 statistics on employment and support allowance (ESA) Business services—Other 60,121 and the work capability assessment (WCA). The latest Chemicals/petro-chemicals 563 publication was released in April 2013 and can be found Computer hardware 241 here: Computer software 916 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/employment- Computer/IT services 3,262 and-support-allowance-work-capability-assessment-april- Construction—Industrial facilities 8,783 2013 and infrastructure Table 6 in the spreadsheet accompanying the publication Construction—Residential and 19,756 commercial/office breaks down how claimants are allocated to the Work Education 34,023 Related Activity Group (WRAG). This shows that 54% Electronics, components, and 687 of claimants entering the WRAG after the initial WCA semiconductor manufacturing on their claim, did so based on the points awarded at Energy and utilities 5,171 the WCA. The remainder entered the WRAG for reasons Engineering services 4,917 other than points awarded at the WCA, these reasons Entertainment venues and 1,064 are explained in the publication. theatres In response to the first question above, table 1 provides Financial services 30,081 information on the number of claimants who were Food and beverage production 17,654 awarded the WRAG based on points scored at the Government and military 17,670 initial WCA and who were subsequently awarded fewer Health care services 77,811 points at the second WCA on the same claim. Claimants Hotels and lodging 14,658 who were awarded the WRAG at the second WCA Insurance 898 based on a reason other than points scored have been Internet services 1,288 excluded. Legal services 2,816 Table 1: Number of claimants in the WRAG at the initial WCA who Management consulting services 3,504 were awarded the WRAG at the second WCA but received points. All new ESA claims starting between October 2008 and August 2012 Manufacturing—Other 10,487 Claimants awarded fewer points Marine manufacturing and 123 Health condition at second WCA services Medical devices and supplies 3,849 Cystic Fibrosis — Metals and minerals 210 Multiple Sclerosis 60 Non-profit charitable 8,409 Rheumatoid arthritis 90 organisations ‘—’ Denotes nil or negligible Other/not classified 49,210 Table 2 provides the requested data for the remaining Performing and fine arts 322 questions above. Personal and household services 18,962 Table 2: Comparison of outcomes of the initial and second WCA on Personal care and cosmetics 2,629 the same claim. All new ESA claims starting between October 2008 Printing and publishing 1,438 and August 2012 Real estate and property 7,560 Claimants in management Claimants in Support Group Rental services 2,305 WRAG after after initial initial WCA WCA who then Restaurant/food services 16,546 who were then entered the Retail 66,501 found Fit for WRAG at Claimants Security and surveillance 10,185 Work at second second WCA having two or Health WCAonthe on the same more WCAs on Sports and physical recreation 8,567 condition same claim claim the same claim Staffing/employment agencies 1,089,023 Telecommunications services 3,639 Cystic 10 10 220 Fibrosis 865W Written Answers5 JULY 2013 Written Answers 866W

Table 2: Comparison of outcomes of the initial and second WCA on may change the decision. We hope this process will the same claim. All new ESA claims starting between October 2008 reduce the number of appeals and, as a result, the cost and August 2012 of such appeals to the Department. Claimants in Claimants in Support Group WRAG after after initial Work Programme initial WCA WCA who then who were then entered the found Fit for WRAG at Claimants Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Work at second second WCA having two or Pensions (1) how the market shift mechanism will operate Health WCA on the on the same more WCAs on in Work programme contract package areas where all condition same claim claim the same claim prime providers have fallen short of the minimum performance standard; and if he will make a statement; Multiple 100 100 3,560 Sclerosis [163273] Rheumatoid 270 90 2,820 (2) in which Work programme contract package arthritis areas market shift will be taking place as a result of Source: providers’ underperformance. [163278] The data presented above come from benefit claims data held by the Department for Work and Pensions, functional assessment data from Mr Hoban [holding answer 4 July 2013]: The market Atos Healthcare. share shift mechanism will operate in all contract package All figures relate to claims starting between October areas where there is a gap of three percentage points or 2008 and August 2012, who have completed at least two more between the higher and lower performing prime WCAs on the same claim. All figures have been rounded providers, provided the higher performer has achieved to the nearest 10. the required standards in assurance reviews and has Work Capability Assessment: Appeals achieved accreditation in the Merlin Standard for supply chain management. The mechanism will apply whether Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work or not minimum performance levels have been achieved. and Pensions what assessment he has made of the cost This will ensure that there is continued competition to to his Department of appeals against the work capability drive up overall performance. assessment in 2012-13. [153945] Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Mr Hoban [holding answer 13 May 2013]: For the Pensions what the criteria are for a Work programme financial year 2012-13, the costs of appeals related to provider to be eligible for market share shift. [163681] work capability assessment are as follows: Mr Hoban: To be eligible to receive additional referrals £ the better performing prime provider in a contract package area must have achieved a job outcome rate ESA appeals—WCA 15,865,218 three percentage points or more higher than the lower IB (IS) reassessment appeals 12,276,418 performing prime provider in year 2 of the programme, ending March 2013. They must also have achieved a The unit cost for an ESA appeal is £61.53 and for an satisfactory rating in their most recent assurance review IB appeal is £83.77. The overall unit cost is £69.59. and in the most recent Merlin Standard assessment We are introducing a new mandatory reconsideration of their supply chain management. Assessments of process to ensure that claimants receive an explanation performance and decisions on market share shifts will of a disputed decision and complete a full re-examination be applied separately (and only) to the three main of the decision, while allowing claimants to provide payment groups—JSA claimants aged 18-24 , JSA claimants additional evidence and information that they think aged 25 and over, and new ESA claimants.

WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Friday 5 July 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 71WS JUSTICE...... 73WS Business Bank...... 71WS Azelle Rodney Inquiry ...... 73WS DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 71WS Maximising Voter Registration Measures ...... 71WS HEALTH...... 72WS TRANSPORT ...... 74WS NHS England (Mandate)...... 72WS Bus Subsidy...... 74WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Friday 5 July 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 809W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Apprentices...... 809W continued Business: Interest Rate Swap Transactions...... 809W Tyres: Waste Disposal ...... 830W Copyright...... 809W EU Internal Trade...... 810W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 830W Foreign Investment in UK ...... 810W African Union...... 830W Industrial Training Boards...... 813W Dominican Republic ...... 831W Innovation: Urban Areas ...... 813W Dominican Republic ...... 831W Royal Mail ...... 814W Kidnapping...... 831W Palestinians ...... 833W CABINET OFFICE...... 814W Saudi Arabia...... 833W Unemployment: Young People...... 814W HEALTH...... 834W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 815W Blood: Contamination ...... 834W Housing: Disability ...... 815W Fertility ...... 834W MITIE Group...... 816W Health Services: Foreign Nationals ...... 834W Planning Permission ...... 816W NHS: Standards...... 835W Urban Areas ...... 817W Nurses: Greater London ...... 836W School Milk ...... 839W DEFENCE...... 818W Firing Ranges: Shoeburyness ...... 818W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 839W Iran...... 818W Glastonbury Festival...... 839W Procurement...... 818W Human Trafficking ...... 839W Vending Machines...... 818W Property...... 840W

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 818W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 840W Domestic Visits ...... 818W Devolution...... 840W Dominican Republic ...... 841W EDUCATION...... 819W Vending Machines...... 819W JUSTICE...... 842W Youth Services...... 819W Burglary...... 842W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 841W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 821W Legal Aid Scheme: Travellers ...... 843W Electricity...... 821W Legal Aid Scheme: Wales...... 843W Energy Companies Obligation ...... 822W Legal Costs ...... 844W Green Deal Scheme...... 823W Prison Service ...... 846W Power Stations ...... 823W Prisoner Escapes ...... 846W Renewable Energy...... 825W Prisons: Corruption ...... 847W Solar Power: China ...... 825W Prisons: Employment...... 847W Vending Machines...... 826W RSPCA ...... 848W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL PRIME MINISTER ...... 848W AFFAIRS...... 826W Ian Livingston...... 848W Buildings...... 826W Kazakhstan...... 848W Fisheries...... 826W Pakistan ...... 849W Floods: Dorset ...... 826W Floods: Insurance ...... 827W SCOTLAND...... 849W Greenhouse Gas Emissions...... 827W Public Expenditure...... 849W Nature Conservation...... 828W Plants: Falkland Islands...... 829W TRANSPORT ...... 849W Shellfish: Colchester...... 829W Aviation: Greater London...... 849W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT—continued TREASURY—continued Cycling: Training ...... 850W New Enterprise Allowance: Barnsley ...... 857W Driving: Licensing...... 850W Stamp Duty Land Tax ...... 857W Driving Offences: Speed Limits...... 850W Ulster Bank...... 857W Freight ...... 850W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 858W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 851W Atos Healthcare ...... 858W Network Rail ...... 852W Children: Poverty ...... 858W Railways: Freight ...... 853W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 859W Shipping...... 853W Industrial Health and Safety...... 860W Tonnage Tax ...... 853W Industrial Health and Safety: Construction ...... 861W Travel ...... 854W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 861W Occupational Health...... 862W TREASURY ...... 854W Social Security Benefits...... 862W Banks: Foreign Workers...... 854W Vacancies: Internet...... 862W Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks...... 854W Work Capability Assessment...... 864W Fracking...... 855W Work Capability Assessment: Appeals ...... 865W Minimum Wage ...... 855W Work Programme...... 866W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Friday 12 July 2013

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 565 Friday No. 30 5 July 2013

CONTENTS

Friday 5 July 2013

European Union (Referendum) Bill [Col. 1169] Motion for Second Reading—(James Wharton)—on a Division agreed to

Margaret Thatcher Day Bill [Col. 1252] Motion for Second Reading—(Mr Bone)

Young Fathers [Col. 1254] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 71WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 809W] [see index inside back page]