Vol. 733 Tuesday No. 244 20 December 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Economy: Private Capital Investment Justice: Personal Injury Cases Cyprus: EU Presidency Bovine Tuberculosis Procedure of the House Motion to Agree House Committee Motion to Agree Draft House of Lords Reform Bill Motion to Agree Electricity and Gas (Carbon Emissions and Community Energy Saving) (Amendment) Order 2011 Motion to Approve Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee (1st Day) Public Service Pensions Statement Consumer Insurance (Disclosure and Representations) Bill [HL] Report Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee (1st Day) (Continued) Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2011, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU; email: [email protected] 1661 Leave of Absence[20 DECEMBER 2011] Economy: Private Capital Investment 1662

Lord Barnett: My Lords, the Question asked what House of Lords additional facilities the Government have provided. In practice, would the Minister agree that there are no Tuesday, 20 December 2011. additional facilities outside the deficit reduction plan? Indeed, the measures that he has already mentioned 2.30 pm were well taken care of when the OBR reported that growth will be down to 0.7 per cent, which is hardly Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Birmingham. helping. In the light of the current economic situation, will the Government consider real, additional facilities Leave of Absence outside the deficit reduction plan?

2.35 pm Lord Sassoon: My Lords, to be clear, the three measures that I mentioned in my opening Answer The Lord Speaker (Baroness D’Souza): My Lords, were indeed new and additional measures, the costings the Conference of Speakers and Presiding Officers of of which are given in the Autumn Statement. the Commonwealth will be held in Trinidad and Tobago in January 2012. Accordingly, I seek leave of absence from your Lordships’ House on 10 January. Lord Lawson of Blaby: Does my noble friend expect that the important changes in the relationship with the Royal Bank of Scotland that the Chancellor of the Economy: Private Capital Investment Exchequer announced yesterday might lead to more Question lending by the Royal Bank of Scotland to small and medium-sized enterprises? 2.36 pm Asked By Lord Empey Lord Sassoon: My Lords, that is a very interesting question. The board of RBS has made it clear that it is To ask Her Majesty’s Government what additional going to concentrate its business on its corporate and fiscal measures they will take to encourage private personal banking and therefore, certainly relative to capital to invest in manufacturing or tradable services its total business, it will indeed achieve that. in the United Kingdom. Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, will the new The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord enterprise zones be wholly or mainly limited to the Sassoon): My Lords, the Autumn Statement announced manufacturing sector? several measures which encourage private capital investment: an above-the-line research and development Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the enterprise zones are tax credit from 2013, ensuring that the relief continues not limited to any particular sector. to attract large-scale investment in innovation; 100 per cent capital allowances for six enterprise zones; and a new seed enterprise investment scheme in 2012 to help Baroness Kramer: My Lords, the Minister will be early-stage companies. The draft Finance Bill also set aware that the banking industry is not serving this out further steps in wider corporation tax reform. aspect of investment particularly well and that barriers to entry are limiting new banks. Is he therefore observing the growth of peer-to-peer lending and will he give us Lord Empey: I am sure that the Minister will agree some assurance that those new lenders entering the that the best way of achieving long-term financial and market will be appropriately regulated but not to the strategic security for the United Kingdom is to strengthen point of being stifled? our international trading position. A significant increase in our manufacturing capability is one of the best ways of achieving this. Can the Minister tell the House Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we are very interested in whether the Government have any plans to offer increased anything that keeps credit flowing. However, although fiscal incentives to encourage businesses, especially my noble friend is very good at reminding us of that SMEs, to invest in R&D spending? Can he further issue, we are getting a bit far away from fiscal measures. advise whether any additional fiscal incentives are being considered that will create sufficient confidence Lord Eatwell: My Lords, I am sure that the Minister in the private sector to boost investment in manufacturing? will agree with the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that, however low interest rates may be and whatever fiscal Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the first thing to remind incentives may be in place, ultimately investment is the House is that the changes already made in corporation determined by business confidence. Is he aware that tax and the capital allowance regime will in total, in the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England 2015, contribute an extra £700 million in reduced and Wales produces an index of business confidence? taxes to the manufacturing sector. For example, £1 billion In its latest report, it says: of R&D relief was claimed in 2009-10, including by “The Confidence Index has suffered its largest quarterly decline 7,400 SMEs. So this Government are indeed taking since the survey began”. considerable targeted action to support our manufacturers, The survey began in 2004. Is it not clear that the including SMEs, whether by way of encouraging R&D destruction of business confidence is the main outcome or through other aspects of the corporation tax regime. of the Government’s economic policies? 1663 Economy: Private Capital Investment[LORDS] Justice: Personal Injury Cases 1664

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the best measure of the shown that this measure will cost the Government expected effects of the fiscal measures that I outlined over £100 million, which comprises legal fees, additional in my first Answer is what business organisations have compensation and loss of income from recovered had to say. For example, the EEF, the engineering treatment fees from insurers? This is a folly. It will employers organisation, has said that the R&D tax deter ordinary people from going forward to seek the credit, compensation that is due to them. “will send a powerful signal that government intends to make the UK the number one choice for R&D investment and is another Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, the step on the road to making the UK the most competitive tax Government do not accept that the measure will deter system in the G20”. people from coming forward. As I indicated, the reforms I could give the noble Lord similar quotes from the brought in by my noble and learned friend Lord CBI and others. Mackay of Clashfern in the 1990s, which introduced the no-win no-fee conditional fee agreements, allowed Baroness Wheatcroft: My Lords, large companies people suffering from personal injuries to come forward are sitting on almost unprecedented amounts of cash and pursue their claims. We are not satisfied that at rather than investing it. Would the Minister consider present there is a proper proportion with regard to the means of encouraging those companies to invest in amount of fees charged, particularly where the claimant smaller companies and nurture them? has no interest in ensuring that they are kept within modest means. The system has got out of proportion; Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we are always open to our reforms seek to bring it back into proportion. new and imaginative suggestions. Large companies have been talking to us positively about how to develop Baroness O’Loan: Is the Minister satisfied that there the supply chain and encourage their smaller suppliers. will be equality of access to justice for the very poorest victims of clinical negligence in circumstances in which Lord Brookman: As one of those turkeys not voting they must bring their action against public authorities, for Christmas, I ask the Minister to put to bed for ever whose defence will be funded by the state? a comment made to me some years ago. I come from manufacturing, as many of us on these Benches do, Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I perfectly but I was told that it was dead and we were going to recognise that the issue of clinical negligence is one sustain our future by banking, the service sector and that many Members of your Lordships’ House raised finance. Will the Minister confirm that manufacturing during Second Reading, and I am sure that it will be has a future in this country? fully debated when we reach the relevant stage in Committee. We say that “after the event” insurance Lord Sassoon: Indeed, and I am very happy to say it premiums should be allowable in cases of clinical and say it again. We have a manufacturing sector in negligence. Indeed, we are seeking through the NHS the UK that is close in size to that of France. We have and those who represent claimants to try to ensure exporters that have grown their exports by 15 per cent that, where there can be joint reports and better agreements since the election. Manufacturing and exporting are between the two sides, that should be done. I hope that alive and well in this country. we can make progress on that but no doubt it will be fully debated in the weeks to come. Justice: Personal Injury Cases Question Baroness Turner of Camden: Does not the Minister think it very unfair that somebody who has been 2.43 pm injured through somebody else’s fault, and is suing on Asked By Lord Hoyle the basis that someone else is at fault, should lose some of their compensation even though it is not their To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they are fault? proposing that personal injury claimants pay part of their legal costs. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, success fees are intended to cover the risk of not winning and the The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace lawyers not being paid. In many cases where there is of Tankerness): My Lords, the Government are reforming personal injury there is a very low risk of that happening. no-win no-fee conditional fee arrangements to return Indeed, it begs the question whether it is necessary for them to the basis on which they were first introduced solicitors to charge success fees at all in these situations. in the 1990s. CFAs worked well then, and personal However, as my noble friend Lord Gold pointed out at injury claimants were liable to contribute to their Second Reading, claimants who fund themselves often lawyer’s success fee if the lawyer charged one. However, do not receive the full amount of their compensation. CFA claimants no longer have an interest in the costs It seems rather odd, to put it mildly, that those who are run up on their behalf. Our reforms will bring proportion funded by the taxpayer should get the full amount to civil litigation costs while preserving access to justice. back but those who fund themselves do not recover the full amount of their compensation. Lord Hoyle: Does the Minister not understand that many people who have suffered serious and maybe Lord Faulks: My Lords, I understand that there is life-threatening injuries will be deterred from seeking an intention to bring in damages-based agreements compensation? Far from saving £50 million, as has whereby a claimant will have to pay some of their been suggested, recent Parliamentary Answers have costs out of the damages they receive. The compensation 1665 Justice: Personal Injury Cases[20 DECEMBER 2011] Cyprus: EU Presidency 1666 factor is that there will be a 10 per cent increase in The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth general damages for pain and suffering and loss of Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, we are amenity, which is currently assessed by judges on an confident that the Republic of Cyprus will carry out ad hoc basis and according to the Judicial Studies its presidency responsibilities as defined by the Treaty Board guidelines. However, bereavement damages have on European Union. It is for the Government of the long troubled people as being far too low. They are Republic of Cyprus to set the objectives for its presidency £11,800, which can be split between all those who are of the European Union from July to December 2012. bereaved as a result of an accident. Do the Government have any plans to increase the size of bereavement awards, Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: However, my Lords, particularly in view of the fact that other awards may have Her Majesty’s Government considered the be increased by 10 per cent under the new regime? consequences for the United Kingdom when it endorses an EU presidency by a bankrupt nation that has for Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, my noble 40 years maintained a dishonest and discriminating friend raises the important point about damages in policy towards Turkish Cypriots and has survived respect of bereavement. As he noted in his question, under a leadership that has recently been defined by conventionally these matters have been dealt with by 90 per cent of its own people—Greek Cypriots—as the judiciary. Certainly, the proposed 10 per cent increase corrupt? What will that say about our national values? will be taken forward by the senior judiciary. I will ensure that the important point my noble friend makes Lord Howell of Guildford: I think the whole House regarding damages for bereavement is drawn to its recognises that criticisms can be levelled at a number attention. of countries, including the Republic of Cyprus, which, in the list I have here, comes 30th out of 191 countries Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, the Minister in Transparency International’s examinations of levels will know that the NHSLA—that is, the legal arm of of corruption, and comes 16th out of 30 countries in the NHS—opposes these changes and desired that the European Union. There is obviously a problem legal aid should continue in clinical negligence cases. there which I think is recognised in the republic itself. That was its answer to the consultation process. What As to the future presidency, it is our hope that there is its current position? will be decisive progress in the coming months towards Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I am not a settlement that everyone in the north, Turkey, Greece, aware that it has made any further pronouncements the Republic of Cyprus and indeed this country desires. on the matter. However, the Government believe that If we can move forward in that way, everyone benefits. a conditional fee arrangement backed by ATE insurance Baroness Hussein-Ece: My Lords, I declare an interest will ensure that the vast majority of clinical negligence in that I have just returned from a visit to Cyprus that claims will be able to be investigated and that the ATE was funded by the north Cypriot Government. Is the insurance market will adapt to the new arrangements. Minister aware that the Turkish Cypriot north set up It is also important to point out that in Clause 9 of the and established the Immovable Property Commission Bill there is an exceptional funding scheme, which may in 2006, thus allowing mainly Greek Cypriots to get well be relevant in profoundly serious cases where compensation for properties that they had lost? To clinical negligence arises. However, I am sure that my date, the commission has received 2,629 applications noble friend will make a contribution on these matters and has paid out more than £63 million. As the when this is debated, I hope next month. Minister will know, this has been ratified by the European Baroness Seccombe: My Lords, does my noble friend Court of Human Rights. Are Her Majesty’s Government agree that people in minor accidents are sometimes aware that no such local remedy is available for Turkish encouraged to find that they have whiplash, which Cypriots to claim for properties they have lost? Hundreds encourages a lawyer to say that they must be legally of people have had to go to the European Court of represented? Human Rights to claim their compensation. Is this acceptable for an EU country that is about to take Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I made the over the presidency of the EU? Should it not set an point earlier that there is little or no risk involved in example? many cases, but I also think—and this relates to my noble friend’s point—that some cases in which a claimant Lord Howell of Guildford: We want to see progress is funding their own legal costs may well never come to on all sides on this vexed question of property. The court, whereas if all their fees are paid for them it may commission that my noble friend mentions is making be easier to pursue the claim. a positive contribution. Ultimately, we believe that the whole property issue can be solved only as part of a Cyprus: EU Presidency comprehensive settlement. We certainly support any efforts to resolve the issue, whether in the north or in Question the republic. I cannot say more than that at the moment. 2.50 pm Lord Harrison: My Lords, I, too, declare a pecuniary Asked By Lord Maginnis of Drumglass interest as having returned from northern Cyprus on a To ask Her Majesty’s Government what they visit sponsored by its Government. Does the Minister consider will be the longer-term effect of the Republic recall a Question that I laid earlier when I asked the of Cyprus assuming the presidency of the European British Government to use their best interests to bring Union in July 2012. together both sides so that the presidency will bring 1667 Cyprus: EU Presidency[LORDS] Bovine Tuberculosis 1668

[LORD HARRISON] indicating that the review has been completed. It has renown to the island of Cyprus and to its two peoples? not been fully published, but its broad conclusions are Unfortunately, there is little working together for a established, which are that the bases are vital and will common purpose, as was demonstrated during our certainly continue. There was, of course, already the visit. view that in the event of a settlement and the unity of Cyprus, 50 per cent of the sovereign base area would Lord Howell of Guildford: I do indeed recall the be part of the settlement and would be available to noble Lord’s earlier Question in which he rightly expressed help it. Generally, the commitment is as firm as it has the hope, which we frankly all share, for decisive always been that the sovereign bases are important progress. The next meeting in the UN process under and will remain. the Secretary-General of the United Nations takes place at the end of January, and we all hope for further Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, on the other progress. At the latest meeting, the stance was not hand, can we not look forward to a happy and fruitful totally negative but there was not much progress, and presidency of Cyprus, which after all shares so many we hope that they will do better this time. The gains of its attributes with the bloated Commission in Brussels? for all sides from a successful advance in the UN process are so enormous that one longs to see it move Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is tempting forward, but so far, I am afraid, we have been disappointed. me into wider issues and debates, which I will vigorously resist. Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, perhaps the Minister will forgive me if I take the opportunity to Bovine Tuberculosis wish the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, a happy birthday, he having been a Foreign Question Secretary who worked tirelessly for a solution of the 2.59 pm Cyprus problem. Does the Minister agree that it would be rather useful if the Governments of both Cyprus Asked By Lord Krebs and Turkey reconsidered their attitude towards each To ask Her Majesty’s Government what scientific other? The petulance with which the Government of evidence they have used in developing their proposals Turkey are approaching the Cyprus presidency would for controlling bovine tuberculosis by culling badgers. seem to be barely fitting for a rising nation of great importance to us. As for the Government of Cyprus, their blocking Turkey joining the EU to work on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, measures against Syria and their blocking of many of Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs the chapters of Turkey’s accession is entirely (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): My Lords, evidence of the counterproductive for their own interests. Would not effect of badger-culling on bovine TB incidence rates some reconsideration by both sides of their attitude comes principally from the randomised badger-culling towards each other be in order? trial. The scientific evidence from the trial suggests that proactive badger-culling, done on a sufficient geographical scale in a widespread, co-ordinated and Lord Howell of Guildford: First, I warmly endorse efficient way and over a sustained period of time of at the noble Lord’s wishes for the happy birthday of my least four years, will reduce the incidence of bovine TB noble and learned friend Lord Howe of Aberavon. I in cattle in high-incidence areas. It is the Government’s think I can speak on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government judgment that these results can at least be replicated in presenting those congratulations to him on his by a farmer-led cull using controlled shooting. The 86th birthday. That is terrific. two pilots will test our assumptions about the effectiveness, As to the broader points made by the noble Lord, humaneness and safety of this method. Lord Hannay, he himself has played a significant part in trying to get the parties to take a more reasonable Lord Krebs: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that attitude to each other. He is right: the compromise reply. I should declare an interest as the instigator of that will emerge from the end of Cyprus’s tribulations the randomised badger-culling trial some years ago. I can be achieved only if there is a more giving and agree with the Minister that sustained, long-term culling revised attitude on both sides. Very hard lines have could reduce the incidence of TB in cattle by about been taken up. There has to be compromise, there has 16 per cent, but can he help me with two questions to be movement, there has to be some revision of which are puzzling me concerning the Secretary of views between the two sides. Then we will make progress. State’s announcement last week in another place? What the noble Lord says must be right, and we have First, this pilot involves two areas. As a scientist, I to work for it. know of no statistical technique for analysing the results from a trial involving just two areas, so perhaps Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, can the Minister the Minister could enlighten me on that point. Secondly, confirm that there is no intention to change the status the Secretary of State referred to a wider rollout of the sovereign base areas in Cyprus or the military depending on the results of the pilot. Does that mean facilities there? that the Government would consider rolling out this shooting policy to the 39,000 square kilometres of the Lord Howell of Guildford: I can confirm that. As English countryside affected by bovine TB, with the the noble Lord knows, there was a recent review of the implication that one would end up shooting between a sovereign bases. A Statement was made to Parliament quarter and a third of the UK’s badger population? 1669 Bovine Tuberculosis[20 DECEMBER 2011] House Committee 1670

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I am grateful to the noble Baroness Parminter: My Lords, the estimated costs Lord for that supplementary question, and I acknowledge for policing this eradication programme have risen the authority with which he raises these questions. The from £200,000 to £2 million per cull area. What share purpose of the pilots is to evaluate the effectiveness of of those costs will Defra meet with the Home Office the process, rather than to provide a scientific appraisal and what budget lines will be cut in order to take of the cull, which is designed to last over a four-year forward this programme, which may well do more period, and I think that the noble Lord will understand harm than good? that. At the bottom of this is the fact that we are hoping to monitor the humaneness and effectiveness Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I would not agree with of a shooting policy before we roll it out, and I hope my noble friend’s last comments; I think she is misjudging that noble Lords will agree that that is right and the situation. I think this is a programme that we have proper. It is suggested that the pilots should be held to carry forward. Clearly, we have to allow for policing over a series of areas, rather than one complete area, and Defra has agreed to meet half the costs. as that would defeat the object of trying to find areas that are viable. The pilots will cover an area of at least Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, is the Minister 150 square kilometres, perhaps extending to as much suggesting that this policy is scientifically based and as 350 square kilometres. without controversy? Is he not aware that the approach of culling will occasion great consternation among a Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, as a young very large number of people in this country and, doctor I saw the ravages of bovine tuberculosis, particularly therefore, that it is bound to incur costs for the safety in young children, many of whom suffered spinal and policing of the project? tuberculosis with paralysis and infection of long bones. As that type of infection disappeared following the Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I think it is very much in widespread pasteurisation of milk and the screening the interests of this policy that noble Lords should be of cattle herds, is the Minister satisfied that a more prepared to recognise the importance of going ahead extensive badger cull would significantly reduce the with it. I cannot agree at all with what the noble Lord potential risk of the spread of this infection into the has said. human population?

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The answer to the risk of Procedure of the House bovine TB being transferred to humans is, as the noble Motion to Agree Lord mentioned in his question, the pasteurisation of milk. Milk is pasteurised to make it safe for human 3.06 pm consumption. We are concerned about the incidence Moved By The Chairman of Committees of the disease, which is crippling for cattle and, of course, for badgers, but I think that I can reassure the To move that the 10th Report from the Select noble Lord that the purpose of this programme is not Committee (HL Paper 231) be agreed to. the fear of its transfer to humans. Motion agreed. Baroness Mallalieu: My Lords— House Committee Baroness Parminter: My Lords— Motion to Agree

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, we have time. Perhaps 3.07 pm we may hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu. Moved By The Chairman of Committees Baroness Mallalieu: My Lords, is the noble Lord To move that the 2nd Report from the Select aware of the desperation of my neighbours on Exmoor, Committee on Recovery of money wrongly claimed most of whom are under a restriction and are losing by Members (HL Paper 238) be agreed to. cattle at every retest? They are frustrated with science because year after year they have been promised that if The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of they will only wait a little longer there will be an Tara): My Lords, this is a simple report that we hope effective oral vaccine. They are still being told that. Is will constitute the final element of the House’s response the noble Lord also aware of the welcome for the to the expenses scandal. As noble Lords will be aware, courage that has been shown by the Defra Ministers in the House has already dealt robustly with those Members this Government in finally starting to tackle this problem? found to have abused the system of financial support. However, the House Committee felt it important to Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I am very grateful to the ensure that any Members who have not repaid the noble Baroness for those comments and I shall convey wrongly claimed money are prevented from returning them back to my colleagues. It is correct to say that, in to the House until they have done so. I hope that noble a 12-month period, in some of the worst areas nearly a Lords will agree that it would be inappropriate to quarter of cattle herds are under restrictions. Clearly, restore to such Members the privilege of taking part that cannot be tolerable. It causes immense stress to in the important work of this House and the right to farmers, particularly in highly infected parts of the claim financial support until they have settled their country. debts to the public purse in full. 1671 House Committee[LORDS] House Committee 1672

[LORD BRABAZON OF TARA] me to go through that history because this House Accordingly, this report proposes that any Member decided, I believe properly, to institute a new, clear and who is found by the House to have wrongly claimed transparent system by which Members would be entitled money under the system of financial support but has to receive expenses. not repaid all of that money by one month before the Transgression of the new rules should be clearly end of their suspension from the House should receive and robustly dealt with. Therefore, if the House a further suspension until the money has been paid in Committee’s recommendation is meant to refer to any full or until the end of the Parliament, whichever future transgression under the new system, I can see comes first. If the debt were still outstanding at the the merit of making the position crystal clear to Members beginning of the following Parliament, then the House as we go forward so that Members will know, if sums would be invited to approve a further suspension and are improperly claimed, a Member’s return to the so on. The suspension of an individual under these House during that Session of Parliament will not be provisions would be imposed by the House agreeing a considered until full repayment has been rendered. Motion in the name of the Chairman of Committees. There will then be no scope for misunderstanding of I should just mention the role of the Committee for the rules. However, if the recommendation is intended Privileges and Conduct, which I chair. In its sixth to have retrospective effect, I have to confess to your report of this Session, the committee stated that the Lordships that I have a problem. recovery of debt was not a disciplinary matter and The House will recall that in the hearing before the therefore did not come within its remit. The committee Committee for Privileges and Conduct, the issue of went on to say that securing repayment was a matter whether there should be a separate sanction for non- for the Clerk of the Parliaments, consulting the House payment of moneys improperly received by a Member Committee which oversees the system of financial under the old system contained in the report on procedure support for Members. The Clerk duly consulted the was dealt with. The committee said this at paragraph 56 House Committee, which noted that the Committee on page 20—and with the leave of your Lordships I for Privileges and Conduct had concluded in its 2009 intend to quote it in full: report on the powers of the House as follows: “As a point of principle, and regardless of the circumstances “The House possesses … an inherent power to discipline its of the present case, we have decided that the length of suspension Members; the means by which it chooses to exercise this power should not be determined by reference to the time of repayment. falls within the regulation by the House of its own procedures”. Repayment is not a sanction: it is an act of restitution, the In line with this conclusion, the House Committee is returning of money wrongly claimed and paid. The over-riding now inviting the House to use its existing powers in a priority must be that this money should be returned to the House, new way. I believe that our proposals are appropriate and thus to the public purse. Lady Uddin’s appeal makes the and I commend them to the House. I beg to move. point that she does not have the means to pay so large a sum. We are not in a position to comment on her financial circumstances, but it is clear that the sanction recommended by the Sub-Committee Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I have to risks having the effect of preventing her indefinitely from returning tell the House that I am troubled by the Motion that is to the House. Not only is there a danger that an ‘indefinite suspension’ could exceed the powers of the House, which are presented to the House. I am troubled on two bases. limited to suspension ‘for a defined period not longer than the First, I am unclear as to whether the House intends remainder of the current Parliament’, but there is also a possibility the Motion to have retrospective effect and thereby to that an indefinite suspension would result in the money never reopen decisions made by this House during 2010. being recovered”. Noble Lords will know that a number of cases were I believe that the Privileges and Conduct Committee’s dealt with by the Committee for Privileges and Conduct, analysis was right in law and in principle. The House whose members at that time included the noble and endorsed its conclusion, which was proper. The decision learned Lords, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, Lord Howe of the House was then communicated to the parties. It of Aberavon—who sits in his place and whom I, too, is contained in full in the sixth report of Session wish happy birthday—Lord Scott of Foscote and 2010-11, published on 21 October last year. Therefore, Lord Irvine of Lairg. The decisions arose out of the the House was specifically asked to determine the complaints made by and against a number of Members issue of principle as it related to the old system and of this House during 2009. All those complaints were came to a definitive view. I would be troubled indeed dealt with under the code of conduct made in the if, by this Motion, the House purported to resile from fourth report of Session 2007-08, to which I shall now this principle on a retrospective basis. In my view, that refer as the report on procedure. would be improper. The House knows that there was a broad spectrum The issue of whether a further suspension could be of complaints about the way in which expenses were imposed in respect of the non-payment of moneys claimed by some Members of this House. Each complaint due came before the newly constituted Privileges and was dealt with on an individual basis and differently. Conduct Committee, of which I am now a member. Some Members were asked to apologise in writing; On 31 October this year, the committee was invited by some were asked to apologise to the House; some were the House Committee to think again and to review the dealt with by the Clerk of the Parliaments; some came recommendations made by the previous Privileges and before the Committee for Privileges and Conduct sub- Conduct Committee, of which I was not a member. committee; some came before the full committee; some The noble and learned Lords, Lord Mackay of Clashfern were dealt with by the police; and some Members were and Lord Scott of Foscote, and I all sat on that tried and sent to prison. All those cases were dealt committee. We found no basis on which we could with under the old procedure. The variations in treatment properly disagree with the previous committee’s legal are difficult to explain shortly, but it is unnecessary for analysis or with the principles enunciated in the report. 1673 House Committee[20 DECEMBER 2011] House Committee 1674

The Privileges and Conduct Committee specifically different purposes may overlap. It may be that the includes Members of this House with a legal and wrongful conduct was the reason why the debt arose in judicial background in order to assist the House by the first place—there is plainly an overlap—but none making recommendations that are consistent with the the less I think it important that the two should be rule of law and with fairness. kept separate. The second issue that troubles me is whether the That was not always the case in the law of this House, by using the stratagem of a Motion, intends to country. Many Members of this House will have read, circumvent the prohibition that exists in law on suspending and many who have not will know of, the Dickens a Member of this House permanently. As Members novel Little Dorrit, which is based upon the experiences will know, chapter 12.12 of the Companion states: of a family in the Marshalsea prison, the father being “The House of Lords does not have the power to suspend a there for a debt that he could not repay.That imprisonment member permanently. A writ of summons, which entitles members could go on, as I recall, indefinitely. Those sad days of the House to a ‘seat, place and voice’ in Parliament cannot be are now long behind us. People do not get punished withheld”. for not paying money that they have not got, and this I respectfully suggest that we should not set ourselves House ought not to reverse that trend by introducing a up in opposition to Her Majesty’s writ—not least sanction that can be imposed for failure to repay because there is no appeal against our determination. money that is owing that the individual has not got Any suspension imposed by the House can only be and cannot repay. temporary and can last only for the duration of one An individual who is found guilty of dishonourable Parliament. I can find no lawful authority that entitles conduct can expect an appropriate sanction to be us to act to the contrary. Nor am I aware of any other imposed by the House proportionate to the gravity of provision that would enable us so to do. the dishonourable conduct. The individual, he or she, I am well aware that a sizeable number of Members who owes money to the House, which may or may not of your Lordships’ House would like the position have been associated with the dishonourable conduct, changed. There is merit in saying that, where a Member can be expected to be called upon to repay it. If he or has so transgressed as to make it intolerable for them to she thinks that he or she has not got the financial continue to be a Member of the House, legal provision resources to manage repayment, then the individual should be made for their expulsion. But that can be can expect to have to make a disclosure of assets to the done only by legislation, which we do not currently appropriate accounting officials of the House to have. demonstrate that that is so and, maybe, to have to Therefore, I invite the House to decline to accept submit to questioning so that the official can satisfy the House Committee’s recommendation in its current himself or herself that that really is so. The individual, form. If the House wishes to send a clear signal in the the Member of the House, can then expect to have future, and I think that it should, there is force in us so some recommendation perhaps made by the official as doing. However, this Motion should not have retrospective to what should be repaid, what instalments perhaps effect and neither should it apply for more than one might be appropriate and so on. But if the end result Parliament unless and until legislation is passed to of a full and frank disclosure, and answers to whatever enable us lawfully to implement a permanent suspension. questions may have been put, is that the individual has Your Lordships know that there is no appeal from not got the assets to repay, or to repay more than a this House—none at all, not to the EU, not to our moderate amount fixed by the official, I respectfully courts. We determine our own procedure, we determine suggest that that should be an end of any sanction. A what is right, and therefore a heavy burden is put on person should not be subjected to an additional sanction us. If we wish to be unfair, unjust or immoderate, we that is not available to be imposed on those with the are entitled to be so. I know this House too well to money to discharge their debts if he or she simply believe that that would ever be our intent, so I invite cannot afford to pay and does not have the money to the House not to make a decision in relation to this discharge. Motion and to give the House an opportunity to think I believe that the proposal before the House confuses again. those two separate matters. I, too, would oppose it.

Lord Scott of Foscote: My Lords, I declare an interest. I was a member of the Privileges Committee, Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I support the as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, has two speeches that have just been made. I have no informed the House. The danger of the proposal worry about those who could pay but have not done so currently before the House is that it risks confusing and I support the proposals in the report so far as they two separate matters. On the one hand, the House go in that regard. But I am concerned about those who needs power to impose appropriate sanctions if Members are or may become insolvent. It has always been a of the House become convicted of dishonourable principle of insolvency law that a person should in due behaviour of various sorts. The sanction in those course be able to get his discharge. Thereafter, he is circumstances takes the form of suspension from the entitled to retain his personal earnings because he House and it is in the nature of a punishment for must be allowed to support himself and his family. the conduct that has been found to be proved against That principle was established in 1872 by Mr Justice the Member of the House in question. However, there Vaughan Williams in the case of Hawkins. I am concerned is an additional factor, which is the repayment to the that the indefinite suspension, which may well be the House of money that the Member of the House owes result of what is before the House, would be against and has wrongfully obtained. Of course, those two that basic principle of insolvency law. 1675 House Committee[LORDS] House Committee 1676

Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My Lords, I take a certain committee will have a discretion not to take action if it amount of issue with the noble and learned Baroness, is persuaded that the noble Lord in question does not Lady Scotland. We are not here in a court of law. We have the means available to pay the sum. In my view, are a self-regulating House and we have the reputation there is no unfairness whatever in what has been of this House to worry about. There seems to be great proposed by the committee. concern about whether the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, has the means to repay the amount of money which Lord Baker of Dorking: My Lords, I am grateful to she seems to have fraudulently claimed. But have we be speaking after the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, because looked into the circumstances of the noble Baroness? I I was about to rise with some temerity to take on three gather that she owns her own house in London. Could distinguished lawyers in this House. However, having she not mortgage that house and repay in that way, or been a member of the House Committee for a number could she not even sell it and buy a smaller one? It of years, particularly during the period of having to strikes me that we are rather taking her at her own deal with this very shameful episode in our history—let word that she is unable to repay this amount of us remember that some Members were claiming money money. fraudulently—I have to say to the noble and learned We have the reputation of this House to consider Baroness that this was all without precedent both for very deeply. If we were to invite her back while enormous the Privileges Committee and for the House Committee. sums of taxpayers’ money were still owing, I do not We were literally living from day to day without knowing think that the British public would understand that in what was going to happen as a result of investigative any way whatever. journalism. The attitude of the House Committee was incredibly Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, from scrupulous during the investigations. We did not take listening very carefully, my understanding is that the into account the personal circumstances of any of the issue that my noble and learned friend Lady Scotland Members involved, or of their religious and political raised was not specifically to do with the individual beliefs. We were indifferent in the old-fashioned use of case. It was to do with the process of retrospection the word in that we were not careless but we were and those rules that applied at the time that a decision impartial. As a result, it was very clear that the system was taken with regard to a particular case. I have not had to be changed. We brought in the new system, been in your Lordships’ House as long as many noble which I hope will avoid these problems in the future. It Lords but, from listening carefully, particularly to was also difficult for us, in investigating these cases, noble and learned Lords over the years, I know that soon to discover that we were not the only people the issue of retrospective legislation of any sort is conducting investigations. The police and the Crown anathema to most people in your Lordships’ House. I Prosecution Service were also involved, so it was a hope that we will not debate this issue with reference complex procedure. As all noble Lords know, certain to an individual or to whether an individual can or evidence was produced and conclusions reached, and cannot repay. I hope that we will stick entirely to the certain cases became well known in the press. The issue of retrospection. Privileges Committee, being the committee that deals with matters of discipline, dealt with these, but again if 3.30 pm I may say on a very ad hoc basis. There was little precedent for the decisions that the committee had to Lord Pannick: My Lords, I cannot share the view make and the amount of suspension that it was prepared that there is some retrospective element here. It is not to grant. retrospective to apply the proposed suspension to It fell to us, as the committee responsible for the noble Lords who were found to have claimed expenses allowances system in the House, to consider one particular without good cause, and in some cases such as that of case. It was indeed a difficult matter for us and it was the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, in bad faith, and debated at considerable length. The position we reached who were ordered to repay the relevant sums but who was that we should establish a principle. I believe that have failed to do so. That failure surely entitles the the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, was House now to decide what action it is appropriate to saying that she rather agrees with our conclusion but take against them. Paragraph 56 of the Privileges that it should be applied only in the future and not to Committee report, which the noble and learned Baroness, the past. That is the nub of her argument, which I Lady Scotland, read out, does not address, as I read it, think has been effectively answered by the noble Lord, what should happen if the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, Lord Pannick. The principle is simply this: that someone fails to pay up. in this House who has fraudulently claimed money on On the noble and learned Baroness’s second point, an extensive scale should not be allowed to re-enter I do not understand this to be a permanent exclusion this House until that money has been repaid. It is not a from the House. The suspension will apply on its question of insolvency, and since there is no insolvency terms only for the duration of this Parliament. It will in this matter, insolvency law does not come into it at be a matter for the next Parliament to decide whether all. Further, we have to be aware not only of our own it is appropriate then to suspend the noble Baroness, reputation in this House and in our debates here but of Lady Uddin, or any other noble Lord in default if the wider public interest in this matter. they still have not repaid the relevant sums. Let us think about what would happen in the private The answer to the point made by the noble and sector in a similar case. If a senior executive in a large learned Lords, Lord Scott and Lord Lloyd, is surely company was discovered to have been fraudulently this: it must be implicit in this report that the relevant claiming massive expenses on a regular and practical 1677 House Committee[20 DECEMBER 2011] House Committee 1678 basis, thus taking money out of the company, he is not clear whether the person’s failure to repay is would almost certainly be subject to instant dismissal. intentional or because there were no other possibilities, If he were not, he would be suspended and the board although I know in my part of the world that it has would examine the case. I am sure that it would then not been entirely unusual for people to have their fines say that the executive could come back to the company paid for them, never mind their debts. That is not an but only if he repaid the money first. That is the area in which we can necessarily get involved. principle that we are trying to establish, and I must say However, there is a further matter. Comparisons that it is entirely fair. We have tried to establish this have been made with Dickens and debtors’ prisons principle irrespective of how it affects individual people. and things of the kind. This is not a private club; it is That is a very important point about a principle. A not a company; it is part of the legislature of this principle must be just that. I think it is a principle that country. It is not a right for us to be here; it is a is widely understood by the country, and I commend it responsibility for us to be here and to fulfil that to the House. responsibility on behalf of the country. I have no doubt in my mind how the country would Baroness Flather: My Lords, I have heard the arguments regard a Member of your Lordships’ House who and I think that I have understood them. As a lay continued not to repay debts that should never have person, it seems to me that if you have no means to been incurred in the first place. I know what the pay back money that you have taken fraudulently, it country would say about speeches, votes, questions does not excuse you. It does not excuse you in normal and interventions by a noble Lord—indeed, I do not life and it should not excuse you in your Lordships’ think that people would regard such a person as a House. A large amount of money, £125,000, has been noble Lord at all. We have the reputation of your taken. It takes a long time to take that much money Lordships’ House to consider in this matter. out of expenses in your Lordships’ House. We cannot just overlook that and say, “It’s all right”, because the Noble Lords will, I am sure, have read the report noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, cannot repay. Well, she can and will understand that when the noble and learned borrow; she can get a loan; she can see where she has Baroness, Lady Scotland, talked about there being no money—she has money in Bangladesh; and she should right to permanently suspend a Member, she was of pay back the money to Parliament and then discharge course right. However, the report makes it clear that whatever borrowing she has made. You cannot be this can last only until the debt is repaid and until the excused because you are too poor. I am sorry, but I end of the Parliament. If it is still unpaid in the next cannot agree with that idea. Parliament, the next Parliament must then make its decision. This is not permanent; it is dependent on the Lord Richard: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady repayment of a current debt, not the punishment of a Flather, has in a sense put her finger on it. We have no past misdeed. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that the procedure in this House for assessing whether someone House Committee could properly return with anything in these circumstances is capable of repaying. If the other than the recommendation that it has thoughtfully noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, cannot in all conscience made to your Lordships’ House today. repay this money because she does not have it, I would not be in favour of penalising her in the way that she is Lord Dobbs: My Lords, this should be a day of being penalised. If on the other hand she can repay it great joy for me because it is exactly a year ago today and is deliberately not doing so, it seems to me that the that I entered this House, but because of this desperately decision that the House is being asked to make is sad issue there is no joy. I listened closely to what the perfectly proper. There is a gap. We have no procedure noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, said. Of for determining what her circumstances are, and it course, this is a heavy burden that we undertake, but I would have to be done in a quasi-judicial way. I cannot agree with her that this is retrospective. When a wonder whether the way out today, because this is a fine is imposed, it is meant to be repaid. There is an very troubling matter, is for the Chairman to take the explicit understanding in that. Repaying a fine is not a matter back to the committee and see whether we voluntary gesture. cannot institute some form of sensible procedure for I hope that the noble and learned Baroness will determining the basic question of fact upon which, in forgive my impertinence, because she has far greater the end, this matter depends. legal experience than me, when I say that she has made a fundamental error. For all the legal learning, she has Lord Alderdice: As a member of the committee, I construed an argument that would never be accepted toiled with other members of the committee over this by a jury of ordinary men and women. A Peer who very difficult question, on which it is not easy to had misappropriated public funds and not repaid them become entirely clear. Noble Lords who were on the is not a victim. He or she cannot expect simply to walk Privileges Committee have to some extent confused back in as if nothing had happened; £125,000 is not a the role that they very properly exercised at that time— drop in the ocean, it is a huge figure. How many exercising discipline in respect of an offence that had decades does a state pensioner have to wait until they happened—with the quite different responsibility of get anywhere close to that sort of total? the House Committee to address not a matter from The Chairman of Committees is entirely right. the past but a current problem of continued and What he proposes is sensible, measured and just. I also ongoing indebtedness to your Lordships’ House. happen to believe that it is in the best interests of the Therefore, I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord noble Baroness, Lady Uddin. I wrote an entirely personal Pannick, that it is not a retrospective matter but a letter to her some time ago, but I thought it appropriate current matter, and that the indebtedness continues. It that I should not say anything in public that I would 1679 House Committee[LORDS] House Committee 1680

[LORD DOBBS] Lord Soley: My Lords, I wish to follow up a number not have said to her directly. I urged her to take into of points. First, this is a question of principle. We account that if she were to rush back here without know about the individual concerned, but it is a question having repaid her outstanding dues, she would find of principle, and if we allow this to go through as we herself subject to huge public and press hostility. It are suggesting today it will apply in other situations. would do her and this House only further harm. I have That is problematic. I agree that the image outside is not had a reply and perhaps I should not expect one, appalling, but, occasionally, you have to look at other, but if she would only let it be known to the House that wider issues besides simply responding to what the she will not rush back and has no intention of claiming public image is. Indeed, politics involves people in more money, perhaps there would be no need to take doing that from time to time. the action that we are proposing to take today. However, Secondly, it is important to understand what I she has not, so I fear that we must. I hope that she will think my noble friend Lord Richard has put his finger bear in mind— on. I say this as a non-lawyer. This House is not a court of law. If it was a court of law, this would be a Lord Elton: I do hope that your Lordships will stop bit easier. I suspect, however, that a court of law would personalising this case. We are addressing a matter of not be able to do what is being recommended today, as principle not a particular case. it would not have the lawful authority to do so. In effect, this is a retrospective form if not of punishment, Lord Dobbs: Indeed, my Lords, but the matter of at least of an order. I want, therefore, to suggest where principle involves individuals. The noble and learned that leads us. If we are not a court of law, but we in Baroness, Lady Scotland, herself admitted that when some way regulate ourselves, as is being suggested—and she was the first to raise the issue of the noble Baroness, I understand that and the reasons why—then there is Lady Uddin. an important fact that we have to bear in mind. If this Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Can I make it absolutely was a company or organisation outside, when such clear that the submissions that I made for the House events happened and a person was disciplined and to consider were matters made in relation to law and punished in the way that we are using, he or she could principle and did not refer to any individual? Indeed, I then go to court if they felt it was unfair for whatever recited verbatim the paragraph in the Committee for reason. The court would then decide whether that Privileges and Conduct report, which said that the organisation had acted properly. We cannot do that, committee was deciding a point of principle and not because nobody can go to court as a result of an in relation to any particular Member. unfair punishment from here. They cannot even go to the European court over it, so there is no appeal 3.45 pm mechanism. Lord Dobbs: Yes indeed, my Lords, but, if she will What would happen if we were a court of law? I forgive me, it was the noble and learned Baroness, assume—and again, I am speaking as non-lawyer—that Lady Scotland, who first raised the name of the noble a decision would be made, and the person concerned, Baroness, Lady Uddin, in this debate. It is all very well if they felt it was unfair, might at that stage argue their talking about principle, but we have to be aware of the case and so on. If they did not pay, the court would practical implications of these matters. bring them back as it would with a fine that had been I hope that we will all bear in mind that most imposed, for example, and would either order goods people beyond Westminster will not be asking themselves to be possessed or, alternatively and more normally, why suspended Peers should not be allowed back until conduct a means inquiry. As I understand it, although they have repaid their debts, but will be asking, simply I am not a lawyer, that is where the Charles Dickens and bluntly, why they should be allowed back here case comes from: there was a feeling that you had to at all. inquire into a person’s means to find out whether the I agree with the noble and learned Baroness, Lady non-payment was deliberate or because they could not Scotland, that, at some point in the near future, we pay. We do not have a mechanism for doing that. We may have to go further in looking at the self-regulatory are trying to behave at one level as though we are a powers in this House, but we have to deal with the court of law, but then not giving ourselves the powers situation as it is today. I know how much care the to do what a court of law would do. We are also saying members of the Committee took, and how much that we are going to impose this punishment or sadness it gave them to come to their conclusion. I can condition—whatever you wish to call it—on a Member, do nothing but commend them for the difficult job but that that Member will have no recourse to the law. that they have done extremely well. I felt very uncomfortable when I began to look at it yesterday, or the day before. We are doing something, Baroness O’Loan: My Lords, I will make two brief as a point of principle, that is deeply undesirable. We points. First, I support the analysis of the noble Lord, have to clarify, in our own minds, that if we are not Lord Pannick, of the impact of the report of the going to be a court of law—and we cannot be—we need House Committee in this case. Secondly, this House is to have a system that follows through; when we impose funded by the public purse and our ongoing membership a punishment or condition, or whatever we call it, we of this House costs the public purse. That is relevant have to have a mechanism for deciding how that is to this debate and the situation in which we find done. We should not do that retrospectively, because a ourselves. It is a matter of the integrity and credibility court of law could not do that. I will feel uncomfortable of the House. We need to consider all factors. It is not if this House gives itself powers that we do not think a a matter of personality; it is a matter of fairness. court of law should have; yet does not give itself the 1681 House Committee[20 DECEMBER 2011] House Committee 1682 power to inquire into means when they are relevant, as stated that the recovery of money wrongly claimed in this case. I personally would not support this Motion was not a disciplinary matter and not a matter for the approving this report as it is today, and I ask the committee. However, as the noble Lord the Chairman House to consider taking it away and thinking again of Committees stated in his opening statement in that about this important issue of how, if we are not a report: court of law, we impose our sanctions; and how we “We therefore recommend that it is for the Clerk of the then ensure that the sanction we impose can realistically Parliaments, as Accounting Officer, consulting the House Committee be delivered, and delivered fairly. That is the issue we as necessary, to consider what arrangements with Lady Uddin have to face. That is the principle—and it even overrides may be necessary to secure repayment of this sum to the House”. the great public feeling there will be on cases like this. In essence, the House Committee has now brought forward its advice in the form of an invitation to this House to agree a clear principle that a Member should Lord Filkin: My Lords, I am struggling to understand, not return to the House while still owing money. In the let alone have sympathy for, some of the sophistry that end, that principle is in the public interest. I cannot is being argued against the House Committee’s report. disagree with it and I will be supporting the It seems, I think, to most of us in this House that a recommendation of the House Committee. wrong has been committed, restitution ought to be possible and the person ought to make restitution. We Lord Laming: My Lords, I will not detain the should not welcome somebody back to this legislature House for more than a few minutes because I support until that has been fulfilled. The House Committee the Motion that is before it. The House will know that could hardly have brought in any other recommendation I have been a member of the relevant committees for than the one it has, and we should support it without only a relatively short time, but I bring to them many further debate. years, sadly, of experience of dealing with disciplinary matters in the public services. Sad to say, that experience Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I thank the has taught me that these matters often involve conflict noble Lord the Chairman of Committees for introducing and sometimes considerable distress, which is made the report from the House Committee this afternoon. more serious when the people involved may be known It is with regret that we have to revisit an issue that has to us personally. done great damage to the reputation of your Lordships’ However, I have an overriding impression of the House in relation to money wrongly claimed under the way in which the House Committee has dealt with this system of financial support for Members. matter and I support entirely the comments made by The public interest and reputation of Parliament the noble Lord, Lord Baker, in saying that the committee require that these matters are dealt with in as rigorous has approached this matter from the point of view of a way as possible. A number of Members of your principle, not from that of personality. It has gone out Lordships’ House have found themselves subject to of its way to try and be fair, but every Member of this investigations—in some cases by the authorities and in House will know that being fair in these circumstances some cases by the relevant mechanisms of your Lordships’ is not a simple matter. Of course, one wants to be fair House. In a small number of cases Members of this to the individuals involved but there is also an issue of House have been suspended. In two cases, investigation being fair to your Lordships’ House and, more than by the authorities has led to prosecution and custodial that, of being fair to the taxpayer. The money does not sentences. The House has had, through a very, very belong to your Lordships’ House; it belongs to the difficult period, to consider the adequacy of its taxpayer and it should be returned to the taxpayer. mechanisms. Changes have subsequently been made, Over the years, sad to say, I have dealt with many both to the system of financial support for Members instances when taxpayers’ money has been wrongly and to the code of conduct governing membership of claimed. The first responsibility of any organisation your Lordships’ House. I pay tribute to the work of dealing with matters of this kind, particularly a public those involved in dealing with these matters. I believe organisation, is to seek to recover the money—and to the rules produced and decisions reached were sensible. seek to do that recognising that it has to make a They are worthwhile provisions and have been of decision in the circumstances in which it now finds benefit to the House during a very difficult period for itself. I believe that the House Committee has both Parliament as a whole, including this House. been reasonable in these matters and adopted a stance My noble and learned friend Lady Scotland, with which tries to be fair and to reflect the seriousness her customary eloquence, has put forward a number with which the public would view this situation if we of very serious points this afternoon. The noble Lord, did not endeavour to recover the money. This does not Lord Pannick, made the point that suspension of a imply permanent suspension from the House. I commend Member of Parliament from this House under any the Motion to the House because I believe that it is a such Motion would be for the lifetime of the Parliament, reasonable, fair and sensible course of action to take. and a further Motion would have to be brought at the beginning of the next Parliament. I understand the The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, perhaps point my noble friend has made in relation to retrospective the House feels that we should come to a conclusion provision. Noble Lords will always be very wary of on this matter now. I feel a little daunted in facing the retrospective legislation and rightfully so, but there is, first three noble and learned Lords who spoke in the in effect, a different interpretation in the report before debate, particularly the noble and learned Baroness, us today from the House Committee. That has identified Lady Scotland, but I am glad to say that some of the a gap that needs to be filled. The sixth report from the points that were made have already been answered by Committee for Privileges and Conduct in October 2010 other noble Lords. 1683 House Committee[LORDS] Draft House of Lords Reform Bill 1684

[THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES] House, but of course they should not have made their On the question of retrospectivity, which the noble wrongful claims in the first place. Moreover, I do not Lord, Lord Pannick, answered very well, this is not think it would be right to means-test errant Members retrospective because the sanctions agreed by the House and then make special concessions to those who could last year related to the original breach of the expenses not afford to pay. The House Committee believes as a scheme. The House is today being asked to approve matter of principle that Members who have cheated the principle that any Peers who subsequently fail to the taxpayer of money should not be allowed to take repay the money which they have been found to owe part in proceedings of the House or claim any further should be suspended for that reason and that reason money until they have repaid their debt in full. How alone. I should say to the House that this is a report in they might raise that money is a matter for them. generality, not a report about any particular Peers, so I A number of noble Lords, including the noble rather regret that a number of names have been mentioned Lord, Lord Richard, suggested that we should take at this stage. That may or may not come up later; as this back and have another look at it. I will resist that the report says, a further Motion will have to be temptation. As my noble friend Lord Baker said, the moved in the new year. House Committee spent a great deal of time looking The second point related to the Privileges and Conduct at this in detail. This is the conclusion that we came to Committee. It is true that that the committee did not and which I recommend to the House. I beg to move believe that the length of suspension which it that the report be agreed. recommended should be determined by reference to repayment and that it rejected the idea of an indefinite Motion agreed. suspension. However, the House Committee’s proposals to suspend Members until they have repaid is not a Draft House of Lords Reform Bill second punishment for abusing the system. It is related Motion to Agree to the failure to repay, which falls within the remit of the House. Neither is it an indefinite or permanent 4.02 pm suspension; what we propose is a carefully defined Moved By Lord Strathclyde suspension that can be ended as soon as the Member in question pays up. That, notwithstanding the Resolution of this House Moreover, we are not thwarting the writ of summons of 6 July, it be an instruction to the Joint Committee because, as the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord on the Draft House of Lords Reform Bill that it Alderdice, said, at no point would we be suspending a should report on the draft Bill by 27 March 2012. Member for a period longer than the remainder of the Parliament. A further suspension early in the following Lord Higgins: My Lords, I suggest to my noble Parliament would be a separate suspension, not a friend that some explanation of this Motion might be continuation of the earlier one. As a number of noble of interest to the House. Lords have said, it may be that we should legislate in Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, of the many Motions future for longer than that but that would need new that I have moved in the House, I would have thought primary legislation. that this one would be almost entirely self-explanatory. The House will remember that last July both Houses Lord Soley: On that point— of Parliament agreed to the creation of a Joint Committee of both Houses to examine the Government’s draft The Chairman of Committees: I will give way once. Bill on the future reform of the House of Lords. In that Motion, the Joint Committee was due to report Lord Soley: The report says: by March 2012. At that time, a number of questions were raised about whether the Joint Committee would “If money remains outstanding at the start of the following Parliament, the Chairman of Committees should move a further be able to report in that time, and I indicated that if it motion to initiate a further suspension”. wished to have an extension it would be able to ask for I want to be clear: is the committee taking the view one. A few weeks ago, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, that in future Parliaments we should do this all the the chairman of the Joint Committee, wrote to me and time? Is that the recommendation? indicated that it would need some more time and suggested the date of 27 March. All this Motion does is extend the time available to the Joint Committee by The Chairman of Committees: If the money had not about a month to take us to 27 March 2012. I hope been repaid, the issue would be up for a new Motion that that is a sufficient explanation of the Motion by the Chairman of Committees at the beginning of before us. the new Parliament. The Peer in question would already have received their writ of summons and would be Lord Cormack: My Lords, what is the point of all able to come to the opening and so on, but then the this if the Deputy Prime Minister tells the world that Motion might go ahead. he intends to force through legislation, invoking the Another point made by noble Lords, particularly Parliament Act, regardless of what the committee the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, and might say? We had a contempt of Parliament committed the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, yesterday and I would be grateful if my noble friend was that the system is discriminatory against people would indicate that the committee will indeed report who do not have the money. I accept that less wealthy properly, that its report will be debated and that Members may struggle to pay off their debts to the no one, least of all someone who wants to treat the 1685 Draft House of Lords Reform Bill[20 DECEMBER 2011] Draft House of Lords Reform Bill 1686 constitution as his own personal plaything, should be eloquently a minute ago. No doubt he and his committee allowed to usurp the functions of a committee of two came up with the date of the end of March because Houses. they believed that it would be possible to achieve that date. I am sure that Members of the committee will Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I might have expected hear this debate and will have seen what was in the my noble friend to speak, but I think he is being papers yesterday. I very much hope that we will not unnecessarily intemperate. It may be a surprise to him need to extend any longer the time that we have to wait to hear that what the Deputy Prime Minister said for this report. yesterday was not new at all. He had said it once or twice before. In fact, I said something similar last June Lord Elton: Can my noble friend the Leader of the in this House. It is surprising how quickly all these House tell me on what other occasion a senior member things are forgotten. I said: of the Government has announced in advance that he “Therefore our intention is to introduce a Bill next year and to is going to use the Parliament Act? hold the first elections to the reformed House in May 2015”.—[Official Report, 21/6/11; col. 1155.] The Deputy Prime Minister yesterday was simply Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I am not aware that following my lead. In the light of that, I do not think my right honourable friend said that he would do so. there is anything too much to worry about, although, He used words about the will of the House of Commons; of course, there is a process before a Queen’s Speech is and the Parliament Act is of course part of a process brought to this House. However, the really important that kicks in when the two Houses disagree with each thing that my noble friend asked about was whether other. It is a well understood process, and although it the report of the Joint Committee would be taken has perhaps not been well used, it has been used on seriously. I can say unequivocally that it will be taken many occasions. It is always of regret to me when most seriously. Parliament Acts are used because I believe that, between the two Houses, there must be a better way of reaching Lord Richard: The noble Lord, Lord Higgins, asked agreements. for an explanation. The Joint Committee has been meeting regularly and is considering this Bill in a full Lord Ryder of Wensum: My Lords, my noble friend and detailed way. It is being given full and detailed has been exceedingly patient. Would it not be wise for consideration. All I am saying is that we need another us to close this debate on the grounds—on which we month to continue with that full and detailed are united—that the speech made yesterday by the consideration, at the end of which we will no doubt Deputy Prime Minister showed only a veneer of expertise? produce a report.

Lord Grocott: Following that comment, will the Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I will not be tempted noble Lord the Leader of the House make it clear down that road by my noble friend. that, should the Joint Committee find that it cannot reach a conclusion by the new date that has been Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I set—many of us anticipated that that would be the congratulate the Leader of the House on the skill with case when it was set up—the timetable under which it which he has dealt with the remarks of the Deputy operates will not be determined by what is required for Prime Minister. The noble Lord has answered them in the Queen’s Speech, the date of which has still not exactly the way that they merited. been announced? In particular, can he tell the House—I cannot recall this ever happening before—whether the second most important Minister in the country has Lord Strathclyde: I am very grateful to the noble announced the Government’s flagship policy for the Baroness. next Queen’s Speech even before the date when that speech should take place has been determined? In Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, further to the order to regain propriety, rather than following what remarks of the Deputy Prime Minister, can the noble seems to be a make-it-up-as-you-go-along policy, and Lord at least clarify whether it would be constitutional having told us the most important content of the next for the Government of the day to use the Parliament Queen’s Speech—in the Government’s estimation, not Act to radically reform and change your Lordships’ mine—will the Leader of the House help us by at least House without its consent? giving us the relevant date?

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, it is always nice to Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the Parliament Act is hear that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is the guardian a matter of statute law. It is our view that it would be of the Government’s conscience. I can assure him that illegal to use the Parliament Act when changing the my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister composition or powers of this Chamber. is not the first keen Minister to wish to pre-empt Queen’s Speeches and make sure that there is a clear Baroness Walmsley: Does my noble friend the Leader case for his Bill, nor will he be the last. The date of the of the House agree that it should not surprise any end of this Session, and therefore the date of the noble Lord that the Government wish to bring forward beginning of the next Session, will be announced a few legislation to realise a matter that was in the manifestos weeks before in the normal way, following well-worn of every single major party in the last election—and precedent. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, spoke extremely that we should get on with it? 1687 Draft House of Lords Reform Bill[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1688

Lord Strathclyde: I share with my noble friend her The amendment seeks to focus this Committee’s surprise that there is any surprise at all. debate on the contents of Part 1, and seeks to remedy a considerable defect in Clause 1. The defect is that the Motion agreed. clause fails to mention that the objective of Part 1 must be to secure access to justice, to protect the needs of individuals and to do so in an effective manner. Electricity and Gas (Carbon Emissions and Clause 1 fails to recognise that our debates about the Community Energy Saving) (Amendment) content of Part 1 should take place in the context that legal aid is a vital element in securing access to justice, Order 2011 and that without access to justice, the rights and duties Motion to Approve which we spend time creating in this Parliament by legislation are reduced in value and effect. 4.12 pm The drafting of Amendment 1 is closely based on Moved By Lord Marland Section 4(1) of the Access to Justice Act 1999, which imposes duties on the Legal Services Commission. That the draft Order laid before the House on When the Bill transfers those responsibilities into the 21 November be approved. Lord Chancellor’s Department, the primary objective of securing access to justice by effective means to meet Relevant Documents: 34th Report from the Joint needs must be retained in the Bill. That point was Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in made in the report of your Lordships’ Constitution Grand Committee on 14 December. Committee, of which I am a member. Motion agreed. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to tell the Committee that he can accept the amendment. It is carefully drafted to recognise, as does Section 4(1) Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of of the 1999 Act, that the duty to provide access to services in order to meet needs is not absolute. It is a Offenders Bill duty defined by reference to the resources available. Committee (1st Day) The drafting does not impose an independent duty which trumps the specific contents of Part 1. On the 4.12 pm contrary, it says expressly, Relevant documents: 21st Report from the “in accordance with this Part”. Constitution Committee, 22nd Report from the Joint I hope that the Minister will be able to accept the Committee on Human Rights, 21st and 22nd Reports amendment as doing no damage whatever to the specific from the Delegated Powers Committee clauses which we shall be debating later in Committee. At the same time, the amendment ensures that the Bill recognises the vital principle which always has been Clause 1 : Lord Chancellor’s functions and which should remain at the heart of our legal aid provisions: a commitment to providing access to justice. I beg to move. Amendment 1 Moved by Lord Pannick 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (1) and insert— Lord Faulks: My Lords, I support the amendment. “( ) The Lord Chancellor must secure (within the resources As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, explained, the made available and in accordance with this Part) that individuals current drafting is a change from the wording of the have access to legal services that effectively meet their needs.” Access to Justice Act 1999 and the amendment makes it clear that the Lord Chancellor has an obligation to Lord Pannick: My Lords, the amendment is in my secure the access to legal services that meet the needs name and those of the noble and learned Lord, Lord of the individual. That was recommended by the Woolf, and the noble Lords, Lord Faulks and Lord House of Lords Constitution Committee, although Hart of Chilton. It is an appropriate amendment with the amendment contains an important modification which to begin the Committee stage of this important in that there is a qualification that the provision of Bill. legal aid must be on the basis of resources, As the debate at Second Reading indicated, there is “made available in accordance with this Part”— considerable concern about the contents of Part 1. Part 1. In other words, there is no absolute requirement There is widespread acceptance that in tough financial on the part of the Secretary of State to make legal aid times legal aid must bear its share of the cuts in public available regardless of the financial situation. expenditure and that the Government have to make I understand the purpose behind the Bill, which is, difficult choices. However, there is widespread concern first, to save approximately £350 million as a contribution about the wisdom of the choices that are being made to reduction in expenditure generally and, secondly, to in Part 1 and whether it is appropriate to limit legal aid make some important changes to the litigation system so extensively for those sections of the community as a whole. Although legal aid and the amendment are that are most in need of advice and assistance to concerned with Part 1, it cannot be viewed in isolation, obtain the legal rights and benefits to which they are particularly not from Part 2, which brings about changes entitled. in current conditional fee arrangements. The need for 1689 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1690 those changes is clear. As recently as yesterday, a Court Lord Chancellor by including language about his of Appeal judge observed at the end of the case that it obligation being only within the resources made available was another case in which, for the purpose. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, also “the existence of a conditional fee agreement has made it practically said that in his view the duty was not absolute, although impossible to obtain a settlement”. a little later in his remarks he said that access to justice He went on to observe that, ultimately, it is the public was a vital principle. I am not clear exactly what the who pay for these things, either through higher premiums, degree of obligation on the Lord Chancellor would be. or through the unwarranted expenditure of public It certainly seems to me that if the legal aid budget resources. is to be cut by £350 million, it may not be possible Access to justice means satisfactory access not just within the resources available to secure access to justice. for claimants but also for defendants. My reading of I am beginning to wonder whether the noble Lord, the purpose of some of the amendments put forward Lord Pannick, and his very distinguished co-signatories, by the Front Bench of the party opposite is that they all of them lawyers, may find themselves in somewhat are intended substantially to maintain the status quo. the same position as the revolutionary students in This is somewhat surprising in view of the widespread Paris in 1968, whose motto was “Demand the impossible”. acceptance of the undesirable effects of the current It is very exciting to demand the impossible but the system, not least by Mr Jack Straw, former Secretary prospects for your proposition are not necessarily very of State for Justice, in debates in the other place. I good. At all events, I am a little confused about suggest that some of these amendments will actually exactly what their amendment would require of the impede access to justice. system, and I wonder whether there is not some sort of internal conflict within the amendment. There is an additional benefit from this amendment, apart from the clarity that I hope it provides. Our law For my part, I believe that the duty on the Lord is generally subject to the Human Rights Act—in Chancellor and the Government should be absolute. If particular, Article 6 of the convention, which provides equal access to justice is a fundamental constitutional for the right to a fair trial. How an individual state principle, then I believe that we, as citizens and taxpayers, decides to reflect this principle in its provision of legal should pay whatever it reasonably takes to secure it. aid or some other form of assistance is, I suggest, very The legal aid budget, running at some £2.2 billion, is a much for that state to decide, and it should be well lot of money. On the other hand, as I mentioned at within the so-called margin of appreciation—theoretically, Second Reading, £2.2 billion is only around 1 per cent at least—permitted by the courts in Strasbourg. There of the social security budget and the £350 million cut have been cases where in one context or another the to the legal aid budget that is being proposed by the lack of legal aid has been found to violate Article 6, Government would, I think, be 0.2 per cent of the although it might be said that the jurisprudence in this deficit, about which all of us are very properly exercised. area lacks some coherence. However, this amendment I think it is disputable whether the existing legal aid should make such challenges far less likely to succeed budget is unaffordable. If we believe that it is a in that there is a clear statement of the Lord Chancellor’s fundamental constitutional principle, we could afford obligation and, contained within it, a sensible to pay what it costs. Of course, costs must be disciplined acknowledgement of the limits provided by available and the previous Labour Government were severe on resources. that matter. I was not entirely happy when the former The Lord Chancellor said in an interview with the Prime Minister, Mr Blair, spoke of his intention to, Guardian, published yesterday, that the Bill was concerned “derail the gravy train of legal aid”, with, because I believe that a great many legal aid lawyers “protection of fundamental rights of access to justice for critical are working for pretty small remuneration and are not issues that no civilised society can do without”. riding on any kind of a gravy train. Nor was I entirely I suspect that all in your Lordships’ House would in agreement with the tone and the sentiment of my agree with that aim. It is an aspiration that should right honourable friend Jack Straw when he spoke of, inform our debates on the Bill in Committee in the “BMW-driving civil liberties lawyers”. weeks to come, and I suggest that this amendment is a Of course, it must be right—this is very much the good beginning. intention that the Lord Chancellor declares in his article in the Guardian today—to attack lawyers who Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, the Constitution are drawing entirely excessive remuneration out of Committee did us, as it always does, a good service in work that may be funded by legal aid. reminding us and stating emphatically that access to My noble and learned friend Lord Irvine of Lairg, justice is a constitutional principle. The amendment when Lord Chancellor, mounted a vigorous attack on that it proposed to Clause 1, which would say that the the cost of the legal aid system. He attacked the costs Lord Chancellor must secure that legal aid is made but he did not attack the principle. The Government available in order to ensure effective access to justice, are right, of course, to examine the costs. If it costs would be a humdinger of an amendment. It would £120 million to run the Legal Services Commission, reassert absolutely and emphatically the fundamental then that commission must be a candidate for economy. constitutional principle of equal access to justice for However, I am sure that noble Lords will agree here, as all our people. The amendment that the noble Lords, elsewhere, that we should not throw the baby out with Lord Pannick and Lord Faulks, and others have tabled the bathwater. We are speaking of a fundamental and placed before us is not the same as that amendment. constitutional principle, of a fundamental entitlement They have chosen to qualify the requirement on the for our citizens. Can we speak of a fundamental 1691 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1692

[LORD HOWARTH OF NEWPORT] That, I believe, became orthodoxy. By 1979, 79 per constitutional principle in the context of an unwritten cent of the population qualified for legal aid. As the constitution? I believe that we can, and so I think does noble Lord, Lord Faulks, reminded us, there was at the Constitution Committee of your Lordships’ House the same time Article 6(1) of the European Convention because it quoted the noble and learned Lord, Lord on Human Rights, which stated: Steyn, and Lord Bingham speaking very eloquently “In the determination of his civil rights and liabilities or of about the right to equal access to justice. any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and Noble Lords will be very well aware of the Sir Henry public hearing within a reasonable time by an impartial tribunal Hodge Memorial Lecture, given by the noble and established by law”. learned Baroness, Lady Hale, in June. I had the privilege The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, points and pleasure to listen to that lecture, in which she told out that access to a court is not much use without us that the principle of equal access to justice is to be access to lawyers. Therefore, it seems to me that the found in the Magna Carta: provision of legal aid is implicit in Article 6(1) of the “To no one will we sell, to no one deny or delay right ECHR. or justice”. That is a principle that has been established cumulatively Our constitution is uncodified but the evolution of through our history. She told us that a statute of 1494, our political and legislative history has brought us to a in the reign of Henry VII, provided for actions to be point where equal access to the law is deeply entrenched brought in forma pauperis, relieved from court fees in the national sense that our citizens have of constitutional and provided with lawyers acting pro bono. Then later entitlement and political propriety.This Bill is, I am afraid in our history, there was the famous case of Ashby v to say, one more instance of the coalition Government White, the Aylesbury election case in 1703, when Lord playing fast and lose with our constitution and with Chief Justice Holt, in his judgment said: cherished constitutional principles. “If the plaintiff has a right, he must of necessity have a means The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, told to vindicate and maintain it, and a remedy if he is injured in the exercise or enjoyment of it; and indeed it is a vain thing to those who were listening to her that the text of Magna imagine a right without a remedy; for want of a right and want of Carta is engraved on the glass doors of the library of a remedy are reciprocal”. the Supreme Court. She said that that library contains Some noble Lords may have read an excellent and a collection of statutes, of decided cases and legal informative article in the London Review of Books,on writings from which the judges discover the law. In her 20 October, by Joanna Biggs, who traced some of the words, history of the establishment of the right of equal “Our library shows the world that we are not making it up as access to justice. She describes how, in 1944, Henry we go along”. Betterton, who, like the right honourable Kenneth Clarke, the Lord Chancellor, was a barrister and indeed Equally, I would maintain that politicians are not a Conservative Member of Parliament for Rushcliffe, entitled to make up the law as they go along. That, I was appointed to chair a special committee on legal believe, is the Diceyan heresy. The sovereignty of aid and legal advice. In his report in 1945 he said: Parliament, the omnicompetence of statute, should “The great increase in legislation and the growing complexity not be a charter for legislative caprice, for ethical of modern life have created a situation in which increasing numbers anarchy. It is not for politicians to make up statute as of people must have recourse to professional legal assistance”. they go along or to jettison principles of law as they go The free legal aid that was at that stage available was, along. Governments and Parliament should respect he said, at best somewhat patchy and totally inadequate. the widely accepted, cherished principles of our He recommended that in the future legal aid should be constitution, felt and known to be such by our citizens available not just for the poor but for people of small even if they do not articulate them to themselves in or moderate means. People who could afford to do so clear words. They are an inherited and shared concept should contribute to their legal costs. Barristers and of just institutions, reflecting the British sense of fairness. solicitors were to be paid adequately. There should be We should not casually throw over the heritage of legal aid centres across the country. That was the legal principles to which the judges have such necessary vision that underlay the Legal Aid and Advice Act 1949. and profound regard. That legislation was widely recognised as being part of I am struck that the Conservative Party demands the structure of the new welfare state that was being insistently that the European Union should respect created by that Labour Government. our national identity. Intrinsic to our national identity 4.30 pm is the common law and access to justice with support through legal aid. And yet the Conservative Party The case was made that to provide legal aid was a seems willing to disrespect that national identity in the particular and inescapable responsibility of the state. measures that it brings forward for us at home. In the construction of the welfare state, the Government sought to construct defences and remedies against the Justice and fairness are elusive concepts that are five giants—want, disease, ignorance, squalor and idleness difficult to articulate. For that very reason it is all the —but it was recognised that Governments had only more necessary not to introduce radical change to the some limited responsibility for the depredations of justice system without national debate and national those five giants. On the other hand, it is Governments consensus. The Government may reply that there is a who make the law and, correspondingly, Governments national debate and that they produced a consultative inescapably should have responsibility for ensuring Green Paper to which there were 5,000 responses. I that there is legal remedy. would reply— 1693 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1694

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I do not mean to prolong a great deal of journalism and an expectation that we the noble Lord’s speech by my interruption, but perhaps would move from the position that was expressed from I could suggest that it is not helpful to his case if he the government Front Bench at Second Reading. However, becomes narrowly partisan. This is not an area where I detect absolutely no hint that any concessions will be any one party can claim a monopoly of virtue or vice. made. Indeed, I detect an air of irritated intransigence It is much better to focus on what unites the House coming from the Ministry of Justice in relation to the rather than what divides it. Bill. I would not feel driven to vote for the amendment Lord Howarth of Newport: I hope to be able to do of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and to take the same that. I hope that I have not been unduly partisan, but position as my noble friend Lord Faulks from the we all feel strongly on this issue and I very much hope Conservative Benches on the coalition side, if I felt that noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches, that there was some movement in the direction of the who I understand feel strongly on the issue, will explain general principle set out in the amendment. Furthermore, their case to us and, when it comes to voting in the as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, explained, this is not Division Lobby, will act according to their professions. an expression of a new principle, nor is it an expression Perhaps in that remark I am becoming a little too of a principle that is to be applied outside the context party political—for which I apologise to the Committee. of this very Bill. It seeks merely to set out a principle If the Government say that a national debate is that I believe every person in this House should embrace taking place, I would reply that the 5,000 responses to within the Bill’s in effect financial constraints, which the Green Paper demonstrate that there is a very are expressed in the amendment. strong consensus against what they propose and that I, as a liberal and a Member of the Liberal Democrats, they would be wrong to defy that consensus. have understandably—like, I am sure, my noble friend Lord Faulks—been encouraged not to cause difficulties, Baroness Butler-Sloss: Perhaps I could ask the noble not to intervene too much and not to obstruct the Lord a question. I listened with great care to what he Government in getting their Bill through; in other said. It would be extremely helpful to know where his words, I have been encouraged to support this coalition argument is directed. Is it intended to support or Government, which I would very much like to do. oppose Amendment 1? However, I have detected an assumption that Liberal Democrat Peers are to support the Government’s approach to this Bill, and I say to my noble friend Lord McNally Lord Howarth of Newport: I will come to that in a that it is not sufficient to make us wait to find out later second. The noble and learned Baroness will be pleased what concessions are to be made on the many to know that I am about to wind up. We should all be representations that have been made. grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for tabling I agree wholeheartedly with the Government that a an amendment that challenges us to debate the principles great deal of legal aid money is being wasted at against which the detailed amendments should be present. I believe that fervently, and I could identify, judged. and indeed have identified when asked, areas in the I conclude by saying that I believe that the Government legal aid system where savings could be made. However, have no mandate for what they seek to do. They have arguments have been made for concessions in areas no political or moral authority and no permission where access to legal services is required as the only from the people to take away their right of access to way, in effect, to meet the needs of people whose rights justice and to dismantle that part of the justice system. have been adversely affected. If my noble friend wishes It would be a dereliction of our constitution if the us not to support this amendment, I invite him to tell Government and Parliament were not to resolve to us when he replies to this debate the areas in which spend the money that is genuinely necessary to secure concessions are to be made and the general nature of access to justice for all. I do not know whether the those concessions, not the particulars. In other words, noble Lord, Lord Pannick, will press his amendment I am asking my noble friend not merely to assume our to a vote. If he does I will certainly support it. If he support from these Benches but to earn our support does not, I hope that when we come back to the issue from these Benches. Without that, I am afraid that I on Report, he or others will table an amendment that shall remain dissatisfied and will feel free to intervene fairly and squarely insists on the fundamental principle. during these debates on the merits of these amendments. If they were to table the amendment proposed by the Constitution Committee in all its principled directness and simplicity, that would be preferable. Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I briefly support the amendment by echoing the words that have already Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, speaking as a been quoted—those of the Lord Chancellor, who said: liberal from the Liberal Democrat Benches, it is with “access to justice is a hallmark of a civilised society”,—[Official regret that I say that I support the amendment in the Report, Commons, 15/11/10; col. 659.] name of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I support it and those of my noble friend Lord Pannick, who has with regret because I had hoped that we would not be said repeatedly that access to justice is a vital constitutional in this position by the time we started Committee. principle. Noble Lords will recall the Second Reading debate at At Second Reading, I regretted that the word which unfortunately I was not able to be present “rehabilitation” had been replaced by the word because I was out of the country. Since that debate “punishment” in the title of this Bill, and I fear that there has been private and public negotiation, lobbying, the proposed denial of legal aid to some for whom its 1695 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1696

[LORD RAMSBOTHAM] I hope that in his dealings with this Bill, the noble provision is a vital part of their rehabilitation suggests Lord will stand by those principles, which I believe he that there are some in government who are allowing held earlier and which his party claims to hold to this an uncivilised concentration on punishment to supersede day. If he cannot accept this amendment today, at the their duty to protect the public. I know that this is a very least I hope that he will go back to his department hybrid Bill and that Part 3 will concentrate on and to those who are less liberally minded in his office rehabilitation, but I wish I felt the same of Part 1. and put his foot down. If he does not, our constitution is in danger, under his watch, of changing very much Baroness Mallalieu: My Lords, I wonder whether for the worse as a result of this Bill. others felt, as I did, that what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, just said was music to the ears. Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, 43 years ago, I Of the amendments currently tabled to this Bill, I was a Home Office Minister but I doubt very much regard this amendment as by far and away the most whether the procedures that have been so dramatically important, and it is one that I strongly support. It described by the noble Baroness were current in those provides the litmus test of what the Government are days. really trying to achieve with legal aid. This part of the I rise to support wholeheartedly this amendment Bill has been presented to us as a cost-saving measure and to salute the courageous and most splendid speech that, in today’s climate, is hard to oppose, but as it of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. This amendment goes stands it is far more than that. As others have said, fundamentally to the heart, core and kernel of what Schedule 5 to the Bill repeals the fundamental principles we mean by justice, the rule of law and the fundamental of legal aid, which appear at present in the Access to constitutional principles that govern Parliament. If Justice Act 1999. By removing them under Schedule 5, one looks at that splendid book, The Rule of Law,by the Government have removed their obligation to the late Lord Bingham, which was published last year, supply legal services, to make sure that they are available the right to justice where a person has a reasonable and to make sure that the means of accessing them are cause is utterly fundamental. In the immortal words available to those in need. They are, in effect, casting that he used, one of the ingredients of the rule of law away two of the most vital parts of our constitution itself was that, and essential ingredients of a just society. They are, “means must be provided for resolving, without prohibitive cost first, equality before the law and, secondly, the principle or inordinate delay, bona fide disputes which the parties are that no one should be denied access to justice through unable themselves to resolve”. lack of means. The omission of an overarching statement He went on to say that, of principle at the start of this Bill signals that the “denial of legal protection to the poor litigant who cannot afford Government no longer wish to honour that obligation. to pay is one enemy of the rule of law”. If the obligation does not rest on the Government, it No one could put it more splendidly than that. Indeed, does not in reality rest, or exist, at all. it is on that basis that the Constitution Committee has attacked the elements which seek to undermine legal 4.45 pm aid. The clear recommendation made by the committee The Minister, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, is a on this clause was that: highly experienced politician. For many years, he was “Clause 1 should be amended to read: ‘The Lord Chancellor a distinguished Labour Member of Parliament. Then must secure that legal aid is made available in order to ensure he was a much respected Social Democrat. Now he is, effective access to justice’”. of course, a Liberal member of the Conservative I consider those words in the light of the amendment coalition Government. It is inconceivable that the moved by my noble friend Lord Pannick. Government’s obligations have been omitted from this On the one hand, one can see that a distinction can Bill by accident or by his inadvertence. The core values be drawn between the two. One is in absolutist terms that he embraced as a Labour MP, a Liberal Democrat while the other is in qualified terms. But I do not think and a liberal are surely those that are embraced by the that the Committee need worry a great deal about that. two basic principles that I have just outlined. The words chosen by my noble friend have already There is no reason to suspect that the noble Lord been enshrined in statute in the Access to Justice has changed his personal views or has abandoned that Act 1999, and all that we are doing is saying that we liberalism, except for one thing. It is a remarkable wish to take the House and the British community coincidence that many, but not quite all—I cannot back to the mentality which supported the Access to resist this—Home Office Ministers in recent years Justice Act. In doing that, I wholeheartedly respect underwent an extraordinary change in their attitudes and support this amendment. on assuming office. Indeed, some say that there is a The idea that access to justice is a constitutional small room in the Home Office to which new Ministers right has been spelt out in the courts. In 1994, in the are taken and where, probably at dead of night, a matter of R v Secretary of State for the Home small chip is inserted in the back of the neck, after Department, ex parte Leech, Lord Justice Steyn ruled which, for the duration of their time in office, they in the Court of Appeal that the, become automatons doing the bidding of Home Office “principle of our law that every citizen has a right of unimpeded officials and the Treasury, and abandoning all shred of access to a court … even in our unwritten constitution …must earlier stated principles of liberty and justice. Whether rank as a constitutional right”. the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has been on the receiving No one could put it clearer than that. It means, end of this treatment is something that we will shortly therefore, that any substantial impediment to the discover, but I very much hope that he has not. reasonable exercise of that right is something that 1697 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1698 undermines the very concept of our constitution, judge of recent times, and, finally, my noble friend unwritten though it be. I can well imagine that the Deputy Lord Faulks, who is a relatively new Member of your Leader of the House, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, Lordships’ House but who has proved his high quality will say, “Well, these are difficult times. Everyone has as a lawyer and a politician. to react to the crisis and to accept responsibility which I am aware that in recent years the costs of legal aid is joint and several in respect of all of us”. I can have risen too far. This was recognised by Lord Bingham understand that, but I would say in reply to such a in chapter 8 of his book, The Rule of Law, which has submission that, first, no credible and enlightened already been mentioned. Steps are being taken by the Government in our day and age can ever stand before Government to reduce costs in a justifiable way, but the world and say, “We are too poor to be able to we must make it clear that access to justice is essential afford justice”. Secondly, it is almost certain that the and that we cannot set up in this country a legal net saving in respect of the £350 million which the system which does not provide access to justice to Government claim will be slashed from the legal aid those who cannot afford it out of their own pockets. bill will either be a very small saving or no saving at all. We will debate these matters in the months to come and there is ample evidence in support of that proposition. Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lastly, let us remember what the situation was in Lord, Lord Goodhart, went before me, because I can 1949 when the Legal Aid and Advice Act was passed. wholeheartedly agree with the last sentiment that he Britain had emerged from a terrible war bloodied, has expressed—I am not surprised that we share that weakened and practically insolvent. John Maynard view. Keynes was sent to the United States to negotiate on Before I speak about my hesitation in respect of the the best terms possible a loan that it took many amendment, I should declare, because I was unable to decades to repay. The Americans absolutely screwed take part at Second Reading, that I am a practising us and, as we know, it was only a few years ago that lawyer, though not a publicly funded lawyer for a long that loan was repaid. The Government of the day in time. I am also chairman of the Access to Justice 1949 could have said, “We are so impoverished and Foundation and president of the Bar Pro Bono Unit, reduced in our strength that we cannot conceive of two organisations which try to help people who have such a luxury as legal aid”, but they did not. legal need through the generosity of lawyers who are prepared to do that for free. Lord Goldsmith: My Lords— My reason for being hesitant about the amendment is that it does not go as far as the Constitution Lord Goodhart: My Lords— Committee, of which I am proud to be a member, said it should. There is a qualification of importance in the amendment, which is the reference to available resources. Lord Goldsmith: I rise to support this amendment I was concerned that allowing that qualification might for reasons which I will explain— allow the damage to be done to the legal aid system and the access to justice that so many people need that Lord Goodhart: My Lords, it is the turn of this side, we are fighting for. but I wait with pleasure to hear what the noble and I recognise the constraints. I also recognise that this learned Lord has to say. was a formulation which the Government of whom I When I started my career as a barrister in the late was a part put forward—I was not that happy about it 1950s, we had started with legal aid for only a few then either, as it happens. However, there is a reason years. Up until then, aid from lawyers to poor people why I shall support the amendment: it is a way of who were prosecuted for criminal offences mostly testing what the Government actually believe in. It is a came from a group of barristers of poor quality who way of testing whether this Government are prepared spent their time sitting in the court in the hope of to sign up, on the basis that there is not a blank being chosen by the defendant to defend them. Legal cheque, to the principle that the Lord Chancellor has aid replaced all that, for civil cases as well as criminal, an obligation to secure justice for those who need it and we must never get anywhere near the previous and to make sure that it is secured effectively. I do not situation. believe that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has a This amendment is one of the most important in computer chip in his neck—I hope that I have known the Bill; indeed, it is in many ways the most important. him long enough to know that that is not the way he The right of access to justice is a central feature of operates—but I shall look forward with interest to two British justice, as it has been for centuries. We are things during this debate. The first is what he says rightly proud of that. We have over the years achieved about this amendment. It will be telling in the extreme the right of access to law. Now that right is under if he is not able to accept that, even though there will threat. Clause 1(1) is not adequate. This is made clear not be a blank cheque and even though it depends on by the 21st report of the Select Committee of your the resources being available, his department should Lordships’ House on the Constitution, published on acknowledge a duty to secure that individuals have 17 November. That is a very distinguished committee. access to legal services that effectively meet their needs. The four Members who have put their names to That is a constitutional principle that the Government Amendment 1 include two members of that committee, should at least support. the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Hart. They Secondly, I will look to see the answers to individual also include the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, amendments and the issues that arise in relation to the former Lord Chief Justice and an outstanding particular aspects of the Bill. For example, I am very 1699 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1700

[LORD GOLDSMITH] The Bar Council says that it is, concerned about welfare, where so much of the resource “profoundly concerned about the impact that the Bill’s proposals at the moment is provided not to well paid lawyers, could have on access to justice, particularly for some of the most barristers in Chambers or City firms of solicitors, but vulnerable members of society”. to legal advice centres. They are agencies that work on The point is underlined by the Law Society, which said a shoestring and depend on legal aid, so much of that, which will be cut to them. The Government should be “the Bill ensures that serious injustice will be done … Clients with judged on the attitude that they take to that—not physical or mental health deficiencies, or low levels of education, more fat for the fat cats, but helping the poor people of may be unable to resolve their problems in the absence of support the country, the vulnerable and the less privileged, and through legal aid”. ensuring the rights that it is one of the jobs of this It is worth reminding the Committee what Lord House to provide. Justice Jackson said when he examined the proposals and came out very strongly against any cuts in legal 5pm aid. He said: Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, the noble and “I … stress the vital necessity of making no further cutbacks learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, was born in inner-city in legal aid availability or eligibility … the maintenance of legal aid at no less than present levels makes sound economic sense and Liverpool. I had the privilege of representing part of is in the public interest … On the assumption that it is decided not that city for 25 years, first as a city councillor and later, to maintain civil legal aid at present levels, the question may as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, knows, as a Member possibly arise as to whether any particular area of civil legal aid is of the House of Commons. Liverpool is one of the particularly important and should be salvaged from the present more deprived and economically disadvantaged parts cuts. My answer to that question is that of all the proposed of this country. Therefore, not as a lawyer but as cutbacks in legal aid, the removal of legal aid from clinical someone who knows communities that have been socially negligence is the most unfortunate”. disadvantaged and where access to law and justice is We have heard several references to the Committee crucial, I spoke at Second Reading strongly against of your Lordships’ House. The House of Commons the proposals in the Bill. Justice Committee stated that the Government are in I want today to support my noble friend’s amendment error in failing to undertake a comprehensive assessment because, like the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, I believe of the knock-on costs arising from the cuts to legal that it goes to the very heart of what the Bill is about. aid. In other words, this is penny-wise but pound-foolish. It demands the perfectly possible. It is perfectly possible This is a point borne out by Action Against Medical because it is what we do already. Unlike the noble and Accidents. Indeed the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, who learned Lord who has just spoken, I turn the attention spoke so eloquently earlier on, chaired a meeting at of Members of the Committee not to the word which I and other Members of your Lordships’ House, “resources” but to what the amendment says at the including the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, were present, end. It says, where Action Against Medical Accidents said that in order to save the Ministry of Justice just £11 million it “that individuals have access to legal services that effectively meet their needs”. will cost the NHS at least £14 million and possibly as much as £21 million. To oppose the amendment and vote it down would be for us to say that people should not have access to This is what the House of Commons Committee legal services that effectively meet their needs. Do we said: really want to turn the clock back to those pre-1949 “We are surprised that the Government is proposing to make days that my noble friend Lord Elystan-Morgan spoke such changes without assessing their likely impact on spending about a few moments ago? We are all aware of the five from the public purse and we call on them to do so before taking a giant evils that the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, mentioned final decision on implementation”. in his remarks that were identified by Lord Beveridge. We still have a chance between now and Report to do It was Hartley Shawcross who, from the Labour Benches that. As the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said he would in 1949, introduced the legal aid provisions. Hartley be, I will be looking for a signal from the government Shawcross was the Member of Parliament for another Front Bench today of reasonableness: a willingness to Merseyside seat, St Helens. re-examine whether or not the propositions that have By way of illustration, the Liverpool Law Society been put to us by the Bar Council, the Law Society, wrote to me recently about what would happen if the practising lawyers and people who have represented provisions in the Bill were to be enacted, and one of disadvantaged communities hold up and are up to the examples comes from St Helens. It involves a scrutiny. It is in that context that we should return our long-distance lorry driver who died of lung cancer sights to the amendment before your Lordships today, after a mistake was made in his diagnosis. The settlement proposing that, was made with his widow after commissioning significant “individuals should have access to legal services that effectively experts’ fees. Under the new regime, the Liverpool meet their needs”. Law Society said that the client, When we come to vote we will be voting on that “would not have been in a position to fund any disbursements to proposition. Unless I hear from the Front Bench that enable an investigation to be taken forward”. it is prepared to look at this again between now and That is only one example of many that I have been Report, I will join my noble friend in the Lobby. given of people who for one reason or another, particularly because of changes to legal aid, would no longer be Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, it is probably able to get that crucial access to justice that is available my turn, if my noble former constituent will allow me. in this country at present. I have been stimulated, not for the first time and I 1701 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1702 hope not for the last, by some of the speeches in this It is vital that individuals should have access to debate. First, the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, legal services, where their rights are being seriously reminded me of how grateful I was that, in 18 years as impaired or are not being properly advanced—subject a Minister, nobody ever sent me anywhere near the always to the provisions of the 1999 Act. There is a Home Office. I do not know whether or not I would serious risk that both of these will occur, separately, have withstood it, but I am glad that I did not have to under the changes to legal aid provision now being be tested. contemplated. I am surprised that any person of any Secondly, the speech of my noble friend Lord Carlile sensitivity—and I think that the noble Lord, Lord was absolutely spot on. I have not had the same McNally, would fall into that category—would support experience as he has of being pressurised by the Whips: such changes. I have always had great admiration for they have given up on me. I am glad to support him, the noble Lord—I do not know why, as he has done because we need some signs of movement in the his best to impair that decision on my part. It is not a speech that will be made at the end of this debate. I say question of party prejudice at all; it is a question of to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that I would much downright decency and that is what I support today. prefer it if this amendment were treated as putting down a marker to see what response we get and that Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, one could be we should judge things in the light of what may in danger of being slightly sentimental about the happen later on with the Bill as well as what is said Access to Justice Act. Some in this Chamber will tonight. In that respect, I have a lot of sympathy with remember it very well and opposed it very strongly. what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, I called it the “Exit from Justice Act”. However, I said. But we need something less than irritated recognise that legal aid is a sort of Cinderella of the intransigence, as my noble friend Lord Carlile put it, welfare state and is a very difficult service to defend in from the Ministry of Justice in the way that it responds terms of public opinion, for reasons that I advanced at to the concerns in the Committee. We should make Second Reading and which I do not propose to repeat. that very clear tonight. In other words, if we do not get However, I will just say that I am, always have been some sense of willingness to move then we should return and always will be, passionately committed to the legal to this on Report. Meanwhile, I look forward very aid scheme. Without an effective legal aid scheme the much to a constructive response from my noble friend. legislation we produce in this place can be viewed as cynical. To legislate rights knowing that a large number Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I— of those for whom they are intended do not have access to them must be a form of cynicism. Having Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, may I? That side said which, the Government are placed in an extremely has just been speaking. difficult position, and there is no jibbing the fact that all departments of state have to bear some part of the Baroness Verma: My Lords, let us hear first from cuts which the Government have determined are essential the noble Lord and then from my noble friend. for our economic well-being. I am one who concurs with that judgment. Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I would like to ask the Government a simple question. What do the Bar 5.15 pm Council, the Law Society and the organisations concerned I will say this only: I am anxious about the way in with poverty with regard to legal services have to say? which the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has drafted his Have the Government taken the trouble to consult amendment. I think it was in the 1970s that I first these organisations? The noble Lord says that they instructed the noble Lord, when he was a junior at the have. So what is their reply? They remain obdurately Bar. He will know from times past that I have always opposed to the principles that the Government are valued his advice since, and my firm continues to do putting forward today. I unhesitatingly support the so. However, on this one I am not at all sure that the amendment. Pretty well all the speeches in the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, has not Committee—whether from the Conservative, Liberal touched upon a flaw, and a rather serious one, in this Democrat or these Benches, and on the Cross Benches— qualification that the Lord Chancellor has to secure have expressed opposition to what the Government these services, are trying to do and support for what the amendment “within the resources made available”. stands for. That seems to let any Government completely off the I also unhesitatingly support the remarks of the hook. If they make fewer resources available, that is noble Lord, Lord Carlile. He has spoken very bravely, it—finito. In fact, this is a rather dangerous amendment and has been supported by several noble Lords who because, with that qualification in it, it seems to weaken share his profession. A bevy of Silks have announced perilously the clear obligation that would otherwise support for the proposition advanced by the amendment. exist under the Bill to meet at least those services that I got involved with legal aid from pretty well the very are in the schedule, which by the end of this process we beginning, because of a very simple notion—I thought will have preserved. it was imperative that ordinary people should be able To put it more plainly, if these scheduled legal aid to advance their cause and, where they are impaired services which are in future to receive the aid of the from doing so, they should be supported by the state. state are made subject to the availability of resources, That was my view then. The amendment sets out very they cease to be absolute entitlements. I am extremely clearly, within the constraints that are necessarily imposed anxious about this formulation and would not personally upon us, the basic principles that we should preserve. support it. 1703 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1704

Lord Clinton-Davis: There must be some restriction. There are two things I want to say pre-emptively I unhesitatingly support the legal aid system but there before the Minister stands up to reply. First, one of has always been an understanding, has there not, that the things that is always said by the Minister responding the amount of resources which are available must be on issues like this about legal aid is, “Look how many consonant with what we can afford. lawyers have spoken”, as though somehow or other we are the beneficiaries, we are all in this great trade Lord Phillips of Sudbury: The noble Lord has just union and we are basically protecting a closed shop. I made the case for the Government rather succinctly. say to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, known to us all That is the argument; what I am saying is that if you as a decent and fair man, that it is not surprising that put the qualifying phrase, lawyers will by and large be the people who speak on “within the resources made available”, this. We know from our work in the courts that it is the into Clause 1, then everything is subservient to it. At poor who will be disadvantaged. It has been my experience the moment, the legal aid cost rises and falls—it while acting in the courts that the disadvantaged will usually rises but occasionally falls—according to the always be those with few resources. We have to make demands of the citizen upon it within the scope of provision for them. That is what access to justice is all legal aid availability. As I say, with this phrase in it the about; we know that from our experience. This is Government could say at the start of the year, “We are nothing to do with protecting the interests of lawyers. not paying out more than blank pounds for legal aid”, Secondly, when we are looking for cuts, I have and that would be that. always said to the Government, and I said it to the previous one, that there are other areas where we can Lord Goldsmith: Perhaps I might say to the noble make savings. It has always been a source of amazement Lord that I was concerned about precisely that point. I to me that when the Government need lawyers—for look to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and indeed to example, when Treasury Counsel sought representation the Government, but I hope that the answer is in the for different government departments—they are not requirement that it should be secured, paid at legal aid rates; they are paid at commercial “in accordance with this Part”, rates. They are paid the sort of money that the corporate and that that therefore means that those things which sector pays its lawyers. If we want to save money, we I, too, hope will be in the Act at the end of this Bill’s should be making serious savings in what government passage will have to be secured, and will not be subject departments pay lawyers for representation. It was to any monetary qualification. I hope that that is the always a source of amusement to me that when the answer as it was part of my reason for taking the view, Hutton inquiry took place and the Prime Minister at after my hesitation, that I would support the amendment. the time, Mr Blair, needed representation, it was to Mr Sumption that he turned—one of the most expensive Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I refer the noble and barristers around. I do not think that it was Mr Blair’s learned Lord to the fact that the sentence within the own purse that paid the bill; it was the taxpayer. I brackets which qualifies the obligation of the Lord would like to see the Government making cuts with Chancellor to secure includes the words, regard to the lawyers that they choose to represent them and that pocket of money distributed to those “within the resources made available and in accordance with this Part”. who really need representation—the poorest in our society. If they are in conflict—namely, that the resources made available are insufficient to meet the demands of We are concerned that there is a constitutional issue this part of the Bill—then we are in a bit of a muddle, here. Whole areas of law should not be taken out of are we not? the purview of legal aid.

Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws: My Lords, my Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I wonder whether starting point was the same as that of my noble and I might make some brief comments, bearing in mind learned friend Lord Goldsmith, in that I, too, felt the time. I would like to add to what has been said. It very alarmed that this amendment seems to be too has largely been lawyers who have spoken, and I very concessionary because it was acknowledging too much much hope that noble Lords will not give less weight on the resource front. However, I acknowledge now to the names on this first amendment or to the lawyers that it pins down the question of whether there is a who have supported it. That is, as the noble Baroness, constitutional issue here. If there is, it has to cut across Lady Kennedy, has just said, inevitable because we all the areas of law. know what goes on on the ground. As a former judge, I was always battling the previous Government hearing mostly legal aid cases, I have clear knowledge over their cuts to legal aid because of what they meant of what happens on the ground. to quality. What concerns me about the Bill is that it The lawyers who have spoken are all very distinguished. takes whole sections of law out of the purview of legal They have done a great deal in the past and indeed are aid so that medical negligence is not included, and nor still doing it. What they have to say should resonate are family matters unless there is domestic violence. It with all Members of this House because these are not is the business of creating whole areas that are not party political issues. I very much hope that no noble covered by legal aid that is a source of alarm to me, Lord will make them party political issues. Seeing as and that is met by the amendment. If you are committed people have spoken from all sides of the House, it constitutionally to access to justice, you cannot create would be good if no one spoke any longer in a party whole areas that are excised from legal aid. That is political way. This issue is too important for us to how I would read it now. do so. 1705 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1706

To recognise and accept the amendment would not Successive Governments have found it very easy to drive a coach and horses through the Bill. On the sabotage civil legal aid since the original Legal Aid contrary, it recognises financial restraints and in my and Advice Act was passed. This is not a party political view is very shrewdly phrased. I do not believe that it problem; it has pervaded all parties. The noble and has the effect that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, who, unfortunately Sudbury, was suggesting. There is nothing to stop us is not in his place, cut legal aid when he was Lord dealing with other areas where we would say it is Chancellor, and followed a long line of Lord Chancellors necessary to have legal aid and it would not be possible in doing so. He attacked what he called fat-cat lawyers for the Government to say that such legal aid should to justify some of the cuts that he made. When Lord not be forthcoming. However, one has to recognise Taylor’s memorial service was held in St Paul’s cathedral, reality. We have to recognise that not every aspect of Sir Humphrey Potts, in giving the encomium—I recall the current legal aid bill can continue to be paid. There that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine, was at are areas highlighted by amendments—some of them the front of the cathedral—made a joke at his expense, my own and some from other noble Lords—which we saying that he saw that he, in a fit of post-retirement have to look at and say that there should not be cuts. remorse, was attacking fat-cat lawyers. It was a good One example of that is private law. joke but it illustrated a powerful point. It would be This amendment sets out in simple language the very easy for my noble friend Lord McNally when he right of citizens to have access to justice in general replies to make some cynical remarks about his legal terms. It is an amendment that would be extremely friends standing up for the closed shop. However, I am difficult to oppose and I strongly support it. sure that he will not fall into this trap. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, has said, those of us who are here today are not in the platoons Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords— of legal services for the poor lawyers who will be most hit by these cuts, along with their clients.

Lord Hylton: My Lords— 5.30 pm Many years ago, I gave a Fabian lecture called Baroness Whitaker: My Lords— “Democracy and Individual Rights”. In that lecture, I made a number of presumptuous suggestions about codifying administrative law, incorporating the European Baroness Verma: My Lords, if we could hear from Convention on Human Rights into domestic law, and the Liberal Democrats, the Cross Benches and then doing something about justice for all, including establishing the Labour Party. community law centres. In that lecture, I gave more importance to civil legal aid than to the incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights. That Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, many years is still my belief as someone who fought for 30 years to ago, when Lord Scarman was chairman of the Law get the Human Rights Act. It is more important for Commission, I remember him saying that his cleaning the most vulnerable people in our society that there is lady came to him one day and asked whether he could effective access to legal services through civil legal aid help her with a social security problem. He described than it is to have the Human Rights Act. how it took him three days of combing through the social security legislation before he was able to help Some may find it astonishing that that should be her. He told us this story because he was explaining my belief. That is because the Human Rights Act deals how there was an enormous need for poverty lawyers—the with great ethical principles, one of which relates to ones who deal with the legal problems of the poor—to what we are talking about. The Joint Committee on be empowered to provide those services. If a Law Lord Human Rights, in its report, has pointed that out as a such as Lord Scarman took three days to do what a common law and convention principle. However, if we law centre could do more quickly, it illustrated the are concerned about practical realities, the amendment point. of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has good sense in setting out the obligation of the Lord Chancellor to The great virtue of the amendment of the noble secure that, Lord, Lord Pannick, is its conspicuous moderation and realism. I cannot understand those noble Lords “individuals have access to legal services that effectively meet who criticise him for being so moderate and realistic. their needs”, The real value of his amendment is that it strengthens and recognises that that must be within allocated the hand of the Lord Chancellor and Justice Secretary public expenditure. It means that if Barbara Castle, in his dealings with the Treasury. Many years ago who I much admired, were still alive and were to write when I was Roy Jenkins’s special adviser, I remember a similar memorandum to the one she wrote during that Barbara Castle, a Minister in the then Government, the Wilson Government, the Lord Chancellor would explained why she supported cuts in civil legal aid. She be able to answer her by saying, “I have a duty to stand wrote to her colleagues saying that if she had to up for effective access to legal services to meet the choose between hospitals and legal services, she would needs of the people and therefore you cannot treat this unhesitatingly preserve hospitals. It is that notion that simply as the Cinderella of public expenditure”. legal services for the poor are a soft target and matter Like my noble friend Lord Carlile of Berriew, I a great deal less culturally and politically than health strongly support the Government. Like him, I very services which is at the bottom of the problem in my much hope that the Minister in his reply will give us view. some indication—not in detail but generally—of the 1707 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1708

[LORD LESTER OF HERNE HILL] and all the matters that are now rising to the top of the concessions that we are likely to be given during our list of things that are accepted but to which we are still debates on this part of the Bill. I say that because, not prepared to give the resources that are needed. although I do not take political parties seriously, I I also realise that there are difficult loyalties between believe in party discipline and in trying to support the members of the coalition. One or two of your Lordships coalition Government in what they are seeking to do. have made their position clear, and I admire them for However, if we do not get those assurances, I will take it. It is difficult to vote against your party. I almost beg the same course as my noble friend Lord Carlile and the Minister to realise that the amendment would others on these Benches. meet his and the coalition’s needs and should be accepted. Baroness Whitaker: My Lords— Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I have been Lord Hylton: My Lords— involved with legal aid for longer than anyone except my noble friend Lord Phillips. I started in 1958.

Baroness Verma: Perhaps the noble Lord could Lord Clinton-Davis: I can tell the noble Lord— speak first, followed by the noble Baroness. Lord Thomas of Gresford: I can go from 1958 to last Lord Hylton: My Lords, I rise with great caution as Friday on doing legal aid work. I do not know whether a lay man in this very legal debate. However, I read the the noble Lord can follow me on that, so I have some article in today’s Guardian by the Lord Chancellor, in experience of legal aid. I have filled in the forms and which he spoke of promoting non-adversarial solutions. appeared in various tribunals and courts, and I have I therefore invite the Deputy Leader of the House, sometimes appeared pro bono with the assistance of when he replies, to tell us a little about how that will legal aid granted by panels of solicitors who control work out in practice and to what extent those kinds of that sort of thing. However, I am afraid that the solutions will compensate for the very large cut that is amendment does not say anything. That is my concern. proposed to be made to the current legal aid budget. It states: “The Lord Chancellor must secure … that individuals have Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, I will be brief. Very access to legal services that effectively meet their needs”. much following the speech of the noble and learned That is a fine statement of principle, except that it is Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, I should like to add qualified in two ways: first, by the words, another slant to why the amendment should be supported. “within the resources made available”, The trouble is that Clause 1, as it stands, does not and importantly by the words, confer access to justice. The wording does not make it “in accordance with this Part”. clear that such a provision will meet individuals’ needs. That can have meaning only if we look at what is in It could be minimal, perfunctory and partial, and yet this part of the Bill, not just at this precise moment still comply. but by the time we have finished dealing with it. What individuals need is the crucial element of Your Lordships have seen the Marshalled List and what my noble friend Lady King of Bow called in her will appreciate the number of amendments in my Second Reading speech the state’s compact with the name that make it clear that I am not satisfied with the citizen: that is, if the rule of law is unintelligible and settlement put forward by the Government within the unavailable to the citizen, their rights and responsibilities resources that are made available. The noble Lord, are withheld, so not only is the individual deprived of Lord Clinton-Davis, asked what the Bar Council, the what they might be entitled to but democracy is Law Society and all the NGOs say. They speak with significantly eroded. We should not allow the wording one voice and accept the need for reductions. They of Clause 1 to be unamended, and I hope that the accept that case, and so do I. It is an unhappy position Minister will recognise that. and I wish it were otherwise. In my Second Reading speech, I said that I hoped Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, we have that the Government would commit themselves to heard legal speeches from the top lawyers in this saying that we are not here to squeeze government country, and no one should fail to recognise that. In expenditure for all time but that when the economy particular, as my noble and learned friend Lady Butler- improves we can widen the use of resources that will Sloss, said, this is a very modest amendment that be available at that time. clearly takes account of the situation that we are all in. However, those of us—and there are many in this Lord Clinton-Davis: What the Government are Chamber—who sat through Committee on the Welfare proposing will cost much more, because of various things. Reform Bill know very well where the needs are. There What does the noble Lord have to say about that? are needs other than those who are disabled or have special needs. As we heard, I think a couple of days Lord Thomas of Gresford: I will say something ago, there are those who suddenly hit crises and need help. about that in our debate on Amendment 2. I entirely Above all—from the way I look at these things; I agree. I think that the Government are making a wish we knew more—I support my noble friend Lord mistake in welfare law and that cutting legal advice Ramsbotham’s plea for rehabilitation. One should and assistance for people at the bottom end of society consider the amount of money that we could save if will cause more problems than it solves; it will not we actually addressed the point about early intervention achieve the savings that the Government think it will. 1709 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1710

That is my case. Your Lordships have only to look Part 1 deals with legal aid, which is what we are through the Marshalled List of amendments to see dealing with today. Part 2 deals with litigation funding that, time and again, I seek to rejig Part 1 in a way that and is based on the recommendations of Lord Justice I think will make more sense while attempting to save Jackson. Taken together, they mark a fundamental the Government the money that they must save to change in our system of justice. We will debate the meet the deficit in this area. That is why, to be honest, Jackson proposals in Part 2 later. Many will see merit I am not concerned about this amendment. As I said, in many of his proposals. it does not say anything; it just concerns what resources will be necessary to meet what will be in this part of 5.45 pm the Bill when we have finished with it. At this point, I should say that the noble Lord, Our decisions in Committee should not be about Lord Faulks, is wrong to assume that we on these piling back in everything that has been taken out. We Benches want substantially to maintain the status quo are living in a different world. There are different in respect of Part 2. We have some reservations and we needs. Society has changed. From getting on for 60 years may have some amendments, but we are by no means of experience, I think I know what those needs are. I dismissing Lord Justice Jackson’s recommendations. hope, with your Lordships’ assistance, to go through it Of course, the Government are cherry-picking from all piece by piece, detail by detail, and point out to the Lord Jackson’s recommendations and observations in Government what they should rethink. the manner of George Washington, who, as your I can make a speech about principles. Good God, I Lordships will recall, had to confess that he had have done rhetoric all my life—I am a Liberal Democrat. chopped down the cherry tree. There are those of us I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, earlier. who fear that the cherry tree of access to justice is in He made a fine speech, and I agree with every word, danger of exactly that treatment. but what it had to do with the Committee’s proceedings Lord Justice Jackson, as the noble Lord, Lord I was not quite sure. Alton, reminded us, was explicit in saying that neither We want to get away from rhetoric and down to the the scope of nor the eligibility for legal aid should be nuts and bolts of the Bill to see what solution we can changed. We are presented with a Bill which will come out with at the end. That is why I shall support drastically reduce the scope of legal aid and impose a my noble friend if this is taken to a vote and ask my very large cut in its financing, so that 650,000 cases colleagues to come with me to support the Government will no longer receive legal aid or advice and £280 million at this stage. It might be necessary later in our proceedings of the £350 million savings to be engendered as a to hammer home certain points that we have not yet result of the Government’s proposal will come from discussed, but I respectfully suggest that it is not civil legal aid. necessary to defeat the Government on this amendment. That approach flies in the face of the pronouncements of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Steyn, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, when he Lord Beecham: My Lords, I must begin by declaring referred to unimpeded access to a court ranking as a some interests. I am an unpaid consultant with the constitutional right, which was cited in the Constitution firm of which I was senior partner for 30 years, in the Committee’s report, as was Lord Bingham, who course of which I engaged in legal aid work in the pronounced that, fields of personal injury law, family law and criminal “denial of legal protection to the poor litigant who cannot afford law. I was also one of the founders of the citizens to pay is one enemy of the rule of law”. advice bureau in Wallsend, near the town in which I Both those observations of those very distinguished live, and I was instrumental in securing a law centre in judges should be reflected on in the light of the book Newcastle. I also have to declare a paternal interest, as of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, entitled my daughter practises in the field of housing and The Pursuit of Justice, a pursuit of justice which will employment law at the Bar. be made very much more difficult for so many—some I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and 650,000 people. his co-signatories on tabling the amendment. I confess Therefore, while denying the allegation of the noble that I share some of the reservations expressed by Lord, Lord Faulks, that we on these Benches seek to other noble Lords about the qualification included in maintain the status quo in respect of Part 2, I make no the amendment. I am tempted to say that if my noble apology for saying that we will do our best to maintain and learned friend Lord Goldsmith is satisfied, I must as much as possible of the status quo for those who be satisfied. In all events, I am open to persuasion by are to be affected by Part 1—the most vulnerable the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, whom, with his display people who most need legal help and advice, generally of forensic skill and general persuasiveness, I have speaking, at the most difficult times of their lives. never heard without being utterly persuaded. I am Of course, savings have to be made. The previous sure that he will persuade me and others of your Government made some in controversial areas and, Lordships that the amendment is on the right lines. undoubtedly, we would have made more, perhaps The reference to Part 1 is predicated upon changes concentrating on some aspects of criminal legal aid, that I think many of your Lordships would like to see but we would not have put legal aid and advice out of to the scope of the Bill. the reach of hundreds of thousands of people across a The key issue for Parts 1 and 2 is that of access to range of areas of law, from virtually the entirety of justice, as fully explained by the noble Lord, Lord private family law to debt, housing, employment and Pannick, in his brief opening remarks. There are two welfare law nor, of course, to clinical negligence, to parts of the Bill with somewhat different purposes. which others of your Lordships have referred. 1711 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1712

[LORD BEECHAM] be more than outweighed by the total economic costs. … This Nor would we have legislated to pass the buck for would include the wider social and economic costs, both tangible the ensuing problems of homelessness, debt, family and intangible”. breakdown, the impact of welfare cuts and so on to The analysis goes on in paragraph 44 to say that the other government departments and agencies and their proposals will, budgets, or created difficulties in the courts and tribunals “reduce the number of 2009/10 Legal Representation closed cases systems—enhancing the costs of both systems by by 38% and legal help cases by 66%”. increasing the number of litigants in person, for that It also says, very significantly that, will undoubtedly be the effect. It is no wonder, then, “Of the legal representation cases removed, it is estimated that that family law organisations which are not specifically nearly 80% relate to individuals within the bottom income quintile”— legal organisations have vigorously opposed the proposed changes. The Children’s Commissioner, the National that is, within the bottom 20 per cent. A more aggressive Federation of Women’s Institutes and Women’s Aid analysis would be hard to imagine. have all come out against the proposals. The Ministry The report also goes on to look at the considerable of Justice’s own family justice report and the Civil reduction in case volumes across a whole range of Justice Council have equally criticised the proposals. services: 84 per cent of total family private cases, 99 per cent of consumer cases, 95 per cent of employment At Second Reading, the Minister said that 95 per cases, and so on, would be out of scope. In terms of cent of cases with children as parties would be unaffected. both legal help and representation, huge reductions However, there will be a saving of only about £6.5 million would occur in available assistance. The Minister will as a result of 35,000 such cases involving children no doubt refer, as I think he did at Second Reading, to being taken out of scope. Of course, 35,000 cases does the fact that exceptional funding would perhaps be not mean 35,000 children, as there will be cases involving provided for a new scheme for excluded cases. However, more than one child. I do not know whether the again if one looks at the impact analysis, one sees that Government have estimated the total but it is surely this will be minimal. In some cases, there will be, likely to be of the order of 50,000 or more. That is just one area in which these problems will become manifest. “Up to 5% for some proceedings”, Who will be expected to fill the gap following the and in roughly half the cases “Negligible” assistance withdrawal of legal aid and advice? It might be thought will be provided. that the vanguard in the big society, the much praised The Ministry of Justice was very dismissive of the citizens advice bureaux and law centres, would be Law Society’s proposed savings. There were two sets of expected to do so, but they are sustaining severe cuts proposals. One included what I considered to be the in both government and local authority funding. Law very sensible provision of a 1 per cent increase in the centres face cuts of 85 per cent of their funding, duty on alcohol, although I accept that that is not leading, they say, to a 90 per cent cut in legal help quite within the province of civil justice reform. The cases, which amount to some 33,000. The Lord Chancellor, revised version had other suggestions, yet the ministry, in his article in today’s Guardian, appears to threaten which appears to have dismissed the Law Society’s their role, for in that piece he says: suggestions out of hand, does not have evidence to “We are … rethinking the trend … for voluntary sector advice support its own proposals. In 15 separate statements providers to take on more … strictly legal work”. in the impact assessment there are 30 admissions that it is speculating on the likely effect of those proposals. Therefore, legal aid goes and the voluntary sector, The ministry told the Justice Select Committee that, which might have been able to take up some of the slack, is not only to suffer cuts in funding but is to be “it is not possible to quantify accurately these wider costs”, deliberately steered away from replacing what would in respect of other government departments. otherwise have been available from the ordinary legal The Government should accept this amendment. aid system. They should sit down and work with the Law Society In addition, there are serious questions about the and third-sector providers to examine alternative savings, impact of these proposals and the robustness of the including looking at the costs of the justice system, financial savings which it is suggested they will lead to. such as the delays and the administrative problems The impact assessment on legal aid, which many of and the costs of the Legal Services Commission, which your Lordships will no doubt have read, makes very have already been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord interesting reading. Paragraph 6 says: Alton. They should obtain an independent assessment, “Legal aid may be regarded as a redistributive transfer of perhaps by the National Audit Office, of the impact of resources from taxpayers to those who are most needy, in relation the revised proposals on access to justice and in costs to both the nature and merits of their case and also to their to other departments and public services. financial position. The proposals … involve reducing the scale of The Lord Chancellor, who is one of those John these redistributive transfers. This will help the Government secure the wider macroeconomic benefits associated with reducing Lewis-style politicians—never knowingly understated— the fiscal deficit”— says in the Guardian that the debate in your Lordships’ House should focus on, at the expense, as the analysis makes clear, of the most needy. Paragraph 9 goes on to say that, “reconciling the reduced but generous funding that fiscal reality requires, with the protection of fundamental rights of access to “it is possible that these behavioural changes might be associated justice for critical issues that no civilised society can do without”. with losses in economic efficiency. For example, for people no longer in receipt of legal aid less resource may be devoted to The problem is that his list of critical issues is very resolving their dispute, delivering a resource saving. But if dispute short. It refers to loss of life and liberty and loss of outcomes were much less fair then … these resource gains might home, but it leaves aside a range of issues which most 1713 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1714 of us would regard as critical, especially if we had to somewhere in the listening audience there are about confront them in our daily lives, as very many of our three former Lord Chancellors and half a dozen former fellow citizens do. Solicitor-Generals or Attorney-Generals. I have never If those critical issues do not relate to those very quite got to grips with the number of QCs that we widespread problems, we will have a system in which, have in the House of Lords, but there is a goodly if you have the means, the doors to justice will be open number. We have good legal expertise and this debate but, if not, they will be locked and barred for too is, and the Committee stage will be, all the better for it. many people in our society. It is this fundamental It is certainly not my intention to approach this—I dichotomy that this Committee must address and to am trying to find that barb from my noble friend—with which the Government must offer redress. I hope that something like tetchy impatience. In fact, over the past the widespread support expressed for the thrust of the few months, I have been watching my noble friend amendment will be reflected by the time we get to Lord Howe at the Dispatch Box. He will be my model Report in substantial government amendments and for this Committee stage—a kind of concerned bedside with an accommodation that will minimise the damage manner. which the Bill threatens to inflict on too many people However, in talking about Committee stage when I in our country. was on the Benches opposite, I was on record as saying that if the House divides in Committee, almost invariably 6pm one will have to resist. I genuinely want to use Committee stage to listen. I cannot make blanket promises and I The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord certainly, at this stage, cannot start giving a list of McNally): My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord concessions. The position of the Government is that Beecham, for his words. We are very pleased to see the the Bill has been delivered from the other place in noble Lord, Lord Bach, with us. He very courteously pristine condition and ready for adoption but, as our explained to me the personal reasons why he could not system works, we listen to the advisory— be with us earlier, but it is good to see him in his place now. Lord Beecham: I am not so sure about adoption The debate has taken on some of the aspects of a being that much more difficult these days. Second Reading debate and it is none the worse for that. The first amendment allows for such wide-ranging points to be made. I shall not try to reply to them all at Lord McNally: We will listen and we will ponder. I this point, as we are at the very start of Committee hope that that will be the spirit in which we conduct stage. My noble and learned friend Lord Wallace and the debates. It is certainly not, as the noble Lord, Lord I will return to many of the issues, like medical negligence Alton, suggested, an attempt to turn the clock back. and social welfare, as the Committee stage runs forward. Even when this exercise is finished, no one could dispute that we will have one of the most generous I accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord legal aid schemes in the world. My right honourable Beecham, that the official Opposition are not arguing friend the Lord Chancellor, in his article in the Guardian, for retaining the status quo. He and the spokesman for which has been quoted a number of times, says: the Labour Party in the other place have made it clear “Access to justice is a fundamental part of a properly functioning that, if they had been in office, faced with the economic democracy”. situation with which we are faced, they too would have He goes on to make the point that the noble Lord, been making cuts. The debate is about where those Lord Howarth, and a number of others made: “Without cuts should be made and with what impact. It is fair legal aid, and”—I emphasise this— for him to look at the impact assessment, and the fact that it lends some ammunition to him is an assurance “the dedicated lawyers who deliver it, our system of justice would that it is a very fair impact assessment. The very first quite simply collapse”. question I answered from this Dispatch Box about the That is the starting point. Bill related to the fact that if you make budget cuts to a section of government expenditure that is mainly Lord Alton of Liverpool: The noble Lord, Lord focused on the needy, it is the needy who will find the McNally, has just cited the idea that we have the most impact of those cuts. That is true of housing, social generous legal aid system anywhere in the world, welfare, and so on, and that is the reality of a Government which he said no one would dispute. During the debate, who have to cut back on expenditure. noble Lords have heard from the noble Lord, Lord I make no complaint at all about the contributions Beecham, myself and others about what Lord Justice from lawyers in the debate. If we were debating a Jackson has said about any further cuts in legal aid. fundamental issue about medicine, I would hope that He certainly disputes it, as do surely many others. the noble Lord, Lord Winston, and other expert medics in the place would contribute; and if we were talking Lord McNally: There is absolutely no logic in what about defence, I would hope that our generals would the noble Lord has said, with the utmost possible contribute. I do not think that there is anything wrong respect—I think that is what you say to each other with the fact that a large number of the contributors when you are insulting one another. Lord Justice have come from the legal profession. The daunting Jackson may well have a perfectly reasonable opinion thing for me, as a non-lawyer, is the array of talent that legal aid should not be cut, but it does not follow that is on display from the legal profession. I always that, if it is cut, it will not remain the most generous remind my colleagues down the corridor that, whenever system in the world. There is a non sequitur in what I stand at this Dispatch Box, I am very conscious that was said. Lord Justice Jackson says that he does not 1715 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1716

[LORD MCNALLY] Health Service for law”. In a way, I can understand want the present system cut, which is fair enough but, that that is a noble aspiration. However, as successive if the system is cut, it will still remain the most Governments have shown, it is one that must be generous legal aid system in the world. constrained by the economic realities of the day.Therefore, we are having to make choices—and sometimes hard Lord Phillips of Sudbury: Does my noble friend at choices. Perhaps I may again quote my right honourable least accept that we legislate vastly more than any free friend’s article in the Guardian: democracy in the western world? We have between “The logic is simple: to determine carefully which types of 200 per cent and 400 per cent more statute law than cases most urgently merit scarce resources, to encourage people to any free state that I have yet discovered. use non-adversarial solutions to their problems where appropriate, and to speed up and simplify court processes where they are not”. Lord McNally: I have no idea whatever whether That is the philosophy of the Bill and it is what we are that figure is correct. I am not even going to promise attempting to do. It is unfair when people use language to write to my noble friend about that. Yes, I think suggesting that we are taking an axe to a whole system both members of the coalition came into government of justice. I know from my contact with the Lord determined to legislate less and I am sure that, if and Chancellor that that is not his intention. when power changes, any new Government will come The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, asked me about our into power wanting to legislate less. However, you get approach to non-adversarial solutions. As the Lord into a department and find that it has two or three Chancellor indicated in the Guardian article, we are Bills that it has just been waiting to get on to the looking to increase funding for family mediation. The statute book, or some campaigning organisation, probably Government are committed to increasing it by £10 million, chaired by my noble friend Lord Phillips, has a ready-made which would fund an extra 10,000 cases. Bill to get on to the statute book as soon as possible. I hear the speeches from my own Benches and am First, perhaps I can deal with the calumny from the always interested when someone like my noble friend noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu. I am not a Home Lord Carlile makes an intervention followed by praise Office Minister; I am a Ministry of Justice Minister. for courage from around the House. I draw his attention We benefit from that subtle division of responsibilities to the line in George Bernard Shaw’s “Saint Joan”: carried out by the previous Administration, which has “Woe unto me when all men praise me!”. so benefited government. Just as my noble friend Lord Actually, I am a little bit old fashioned. I believe that Carlile emphasises the liberalism of his approach, I the real courage is in standing up and saying, “I make no apologies for approaching these matters as a support the Government. I think that this is a very social democrat. I look at these issues through those good Bill and I intend to vote for them tonight”. eyes, including that raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. It is extremely important that in reforming 6.15 pm our justice system, we keep rehabilitation in the forefront. It is important to make clear that we will have a Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I am sorry to interrupt vigorous system to prosecute justice and punish offenders. and I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I However, if we carry on casually allowing the upward want to help the Minister, I really do. I do not yet rise of our prison population into six figures, it will be understand whether he really disagrees with the principle a self-defeating process. Unless we attack the rehabilitation stated in the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, of offenders to stop the horrendous reoffending rates, Lord Pannick. The principle stated would replace as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has often what is in Clause 1 with what seems to me a platitude championed, we will be doomed to be spending but a very important one. I do not hear the Minister increasingly more on punishment in a justice system say that he thinks it is not the right principle. with no real help to society at large. I suggest that this needs to be thought about right This has been a philosophical debate. The noble now because we had the same situation in connection Lord, Lord Howarth, set the tone in a speech which, with the Public Bodies Bill. In Committee on that Bill, as my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford pointed the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and I did a rather bold out, was wonderful in its rhetoric but brought us to and perhaps unthinkable thing and I stood on my why there was not universal support for the Pannick head about it. The noble Lord made the House divide amendment. It suggested that the Government might on my amendment to write a principle at the front of have to take some account of the resources available. that Bill. We did that at the beginning in Committee, The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, went back to Magna and getting the principle in had a beneficial effect. I Carta, quoting Lord Bingham and others. I have am not suggesting that that might be necessary now, beside my bed a copy of his The Rule of Law, which is but it would help those of us who are loyal to the a guide for any lay innocent Justice Minister. We have Government to know whether there is a real disagreement to accept the fact that Governments and departments with the statement of principle in the amendment of have to meet budgets and that they cannot find blank the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. cheques and never have been able to. I went to see the noble Lord, Lord Hutchinson of Lord McNally: If my noble friend had a fault—and, Lullington, who, sadly, can no longer attend the House my God, that is a dangerous thing even to suggest—it and has taken leave of absence. Jeremy Hutchinson is is his impetuosity. I was just coming to the nub of the now 96, but was one of the group of lawyers who Pannick amendment, but thought that after a long helped to bring in the 1949 Act. He said rather wistfully, debate it was reasonable to try to pick up at least some “We thought that we were bringing in a National of the points made by noble Lords. 1717 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1718

The amendment seeks to place a statutory duty on here. In addition, the Lord Chancellor will have specific the Lord Chancellor to secure access within the resources duties under the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. We made available and in accordance with the provision have also been clear in our response to consultation in Part 1: the legal services that effectively meet the that we will work in conjunction with the Legal Services needs of individuals. We accept that this proposed Commission and its successor executive agency to amendment is very similar to the duty placed on the develop and to put in place a procurement strategy Legal Services Commission by Section 4(1) of the Access that will reflect the demands and requirements of the to Justice Act 1999. We also accept that the duty that new legal aid market. the amendment would place on the Lord Chancellor Having read that out, I appreciate that a large would be qualified by the reference to the duty being number of noble Lords will want to read Hansard, see subject both to the resources available and to the what it says and see how it matches. It would be provisions of Part 1. However, against the backdrop madness for any Minister faced with an amendment of this Bill, we believe that Amendment 1 is unnecessary. tabled by the noble Lords who tabled this amendment It is central to our proposal for reform that the reforms simply to dismiss it. I will certainly draw the attention establish an affordable system while ensuring that no of the Lord Chancellor to the debate. one is denied their fundamental right of access to justice. Legal aid will be a key element in ensuring access to justice in some cases, but in many cases Lord Clinton-Davis: So far the Minister has not justice can and should be afforded without the assistance mentioned the conversations that he and the Government of a lawyer funded by the taxpayer. Fundamental have had with the Bar Council, the Law Society and rights to access to justice are the subject of international other bodies concerned with this aspect of law. They protections such as the European Convention on Human have been critical of the Government’s approach, have Rights and certain enforceable EU rights, and are they not? In what way? protected by this Bill in relation to legal aid through the areas retained in scope in Schedule 1 and through Lord McNally: At one stage I accused Peter Lodder, the exceptional funding provision in Clause 9. chairman of the Bar Council, of stalking me, so often The exceptional funding scheme will ensure the did I see him. Of course the Bar Council, the Law protection of an individual’s right to legal aid under Society and various other bodies, including committees the European Convention on Human Rights, as well of this House, will give an opinion on legislation. We as those rights to legal aid that are directly enforceable are certainly in conversation on these matters. The under European Union law. These rights are of noble Lord shakes his head, but when he was a Minister fundamental importance, and the Government consider he did not say, “Come in, vested interests, tell me what that the Bill adequately protects them. However, we you want and I will do it”. He listened to them, and do not consider that any more extensive right to where they could convince him he made changes. I taxpayer assistance by way of legal aid to access to the assure noble Lords that my honourable and right courts should be established. In light of the way the honourable friends the Ministers in the other place Bill protects fundamental rights of access to justice, to and I have made ourselves constantly available to a the extent that the amendment seeks to introduce wide range of bodies, including professional organisations, requirements over and above what is required by, for and we will continue to do so during the passage of example, Article 6 of the European Convention on the Bill. No organisation has a rubber stamp on the Human Rights, it is not desirable or necessary. To the matter, but we will listen. extent that it would require no more than, for example, In philosophy and in content, this has been an Article 6, it is also unnecessary. Clause 1 states that the extremely useful debate that I will draw to the attention Lord Chancellor must secure that legal aid is made of the Lord Chancellor. When it comes to the crunch, available in accordance with Part 1 of the Bill. The we face a division between the principled approach of Lord Chancellor has powers under Clause 2 to make the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, that access to justice arrangements to meet that duty. means that we must pay the legal aid bill, whatever it is. Considerations about the demand for civil legal aid services have not been ignored. Under Clause 10 the Lord Chancellor will make regulations setting out Lord Howarth of Newport: I referred to expenditure criteria that the director of legal aid casework will be that was genuinely necessary to ensure that all our required to consider when making decisions. When citizens have equal access to justice. I certainly did not settling the criteria, the Lord Chancellor must consider endorse any inefficiencies or extravagances in the legal the extent to which the criteria should reflect certain aid system that there might be at the moment. factors. These include the availability of resources to provide the services and the appropriateness of applying Lord McNally: The point is that that is genuinely such resources to provide the services, having regard what we, too, are trying to do. It is a matter of to present and likely future demands for civil legal aid judgment. In the next month or six weeks, as we take services. the Bill through the House, we will test those judgments In addition, the Lord Chancellor will be required, in detail. I hope that in the light of my response, the in carrying out his functions, to protect and promote noble Lord, Lord Pannick, will withdraw his amendment. the public interest and to support the constitutional principle of the rule of law. These considerations are Lord Lester of Herne Hill: The Minister referred to inherent in the Lord Chancellor’s functions as a Minister Article 6 of the convention being the standard. We of the Crown and do not require specific reference should bear in mind, as he said, that among the 1719 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1720

[LORD LESTER OF HERNE HILL] The Committee heard support for the amendment 47 states we have one of the best systems, yet by using from all sides of the House, and I am grateful to all Article 6 we are adopting a standard well below common noble Lords who spoke. The only noble Lords who law and anything that we in this country have enjoyed spoke against the amendment, apart from the Minister, since 1949. Will he reflect on that? were the noble Lords, Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lord Thomas of Gresford. Each was concerned that the amendment did not go far enough: that it was Lord McNally: As I said, I reflect on almost anything either anodyne or positively dangerous in cutting down that my friend says, and it is now in Hansard as well. on the possible provision of legal aid. I say to each of those noble Lords, and in particular to the noble Lord Pannick: My Lords, this has been a lengthy Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, that his comments, debate that has touched on a large number of very with respect, ignore the provision that has been on the important issues. In responding, perhaps I may briefly statute book since 1999: Section 4(1) of the Access to take the attention of the Committee back to what we Justice Act 1999, the terms of which are echoed in this are debating: the terms of Amendment 1. With all due amendment. Under all Governments since 1999, that respect to the Minister, I simply cannot understand his has been the state of the law, and Section 4(1) refers objection to the amendment. It is not a matter of legal both to “the resources made available” and to provision, complexity, it is not a matter of legal expertise, and it “in accordance with this Part”, is certainly not a matter of philosophy. Surely the so I cannot understand the objection to including amendment identifies in terms that I hope are clear those same phrases in Amendment 1. and uncontroversial the aims of the legal aid system in our society. It recognises that the provision of legal aid 6.30 pm must be within available resources, so it does not cut Lord Thomas of Gresford: I do not think the noble across the Minister’s understandable desire to save Lord has grasped what I was saying. The amendment money. There is no question of the amendment requiring states, a “blank cheque”, which was his phrase in answering “in accordance with this Part”, criticisms of the Bill. Surely a statement of constitutional principle such as this is absolutely vital at the start of a but we have not determined what this Part will cover. Bill of this nature. As the noble Lord realises, I have put down many amendments to Part 1 in an attempt to rejig what will I suggest to noble Lords that the Government’s be in scope and what will not. He is inviting the refusal, through the Minister, to recognise a simple, Committee to accept, and I hope uncontroversial, statement of principle in “in accordance with this Part”, Clause 1 is deeply troubling in what it tells the Committee at the very outset before we have decided what is going and the world outside the House about the Government’s to be in it. approach to legal aid and to the more detailed provisions that we will come to debate in Committee. Lord Pannick: With great respect to the noble Lord, I am inviting the Committee to accept that whatever Lord Thomas of Gresford: Perhaps the noble Lord the Bill is at the end of proceedings in this House and would outline what is meant by, in Parliament as a whole, it is vital to have at the outset “in accordance with this Part”. a statement of constitutional principle. This amendment is entirely without prejudice to all the amendments that we will be debating, considering, and perhaps Lord Pannick: I will come to the noble Lord’s voting on, many of which I support, but that is an concern that the amendment does not go far enough. entirely distinct question from the issue that we are My point is that if the Government are not even now debating, which is the constitutional principle prepared to recognise the principle that the Bill should about what goes into the Bill. I was particularly grateful seek to secure, within the resources available, individuals’ to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, for access to legal services that effectively meet their needs, his support on this point, and I respectfully agree with why should the Committee support the detailed reductions what he said. in the scope of legal aid that we will come to debate? I am not going to test the opinion of the House today—I am going to take the advice of the noble Lord Thomas of Gresford: I do not think that the Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree—but I very much noble Lord grasped my point. hope that the Minister will be able without a vote to recognise that the opinion of the House is very strongly in favour of this amendment for all the reasons that Lord Pannick: I will deal with the noble Lord’s have been expressed in Committee today. I am sure point if he will be patient; I prefer to deal with it in the that the Minister will recognise that if there is no course of my remarks and not at this precise moment. movement on this issue—an issue that I and many The Minister said that the amendment was unnecessary. other noble Lords regard as absolutely fundamental—the I say with respect that that ignores the need for a House will return to this matter on Report, and it is statement of constitutional principle to assist the Lord clear, I suggest, that the Minister and the Government Chancellor, the director, the courts and the public. will face a substantial rebellion on their own Benches. The Minister suggested that these matters were inherent For the present, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. in the role of the Lord Chancellor. What, then, is the objection to putting the statement in the Bill? Amendment 1 withdrawn. 1721 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1722

in the field of welfare, for exactly the reason that my Amendment 2 noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford has just outlined. At one and the same time, we are passing—or the Moved by Lord Thomas of Gresford Government are proposing that we should pass— 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 12, at end insert— significant changes in the welfare area affecting hundreds “( ) The Lord Chancellor must secure equality between the of thousands of people and we are seeking to reduce state and any party in dispute with the state in the provision of the scope for people to have legal aid or support of services of advice, assistance and representation for appeals on one kind or another in challenging some of the decisions any point of law in the fields of welfare benefits, employment, that will then be made. I think I referred to it at debt, housing, immigration, education, and asylum.” Second Reading as a sort of pincer movement in that respect and I see no reason to change that judgment Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, we are now now. coming to what I regard as the nitty-gritty of this Bill: what is going to be in scope and what is not? What is That leads me to make two or three points. First, to be provided for? I have focused in particular on the we really need something that we have not had, which area of welfare law, which I think is of extreme importance is a combined impact assessment of the effect of the in our deliberations. I am speaking to Amendment 2, various pieces of legislation on poor and vulnerable and, as your Lordships can see, to Amendments 29 people. We have not had it. This is not joined-up and 78. They are concerned with the provision of legal government and it is very difficult to make a judgment aid in the appeal system in the tribunals. I have other about what we collectively as a Parliament are doing amendments set down which I hope will address what to these people in those circumstances. That is aggravated I consider to be a very important part of our deliberations: by what has been acknowledged in this debate, which how do you provide advice and assistance to people is that the Government do not know—I do not know before they ever get into the tribunal system? When whether the Minister will accept these words—what they are faced with a problem and they want a resolution the financial effects of these measures will be, although of it, to whom do they go? I have amendments down we all know that there will be effects in increasing which will deal with that part of the matter. costs for other departments. The Government say that It seems to me to be a fundamental principle that if they cannot quantify them but I do not think that they you get to the Second-tier Tribunal and then to the would deny that they will be there. If they cannot appeal courts beyond that and if, as will undoubtedly quantify them, but cannot deny that they will be there, happen, the Government are represented by counsel the savings figures are potentially meaningless. and solicitors ready to argue the point in front of Even within the Ministry of Justice, which I assume those experienced tribunals, under the principle of has costed the consequences, the extra costs of claimants, equality of arms, which is a very important principle litigants and appellants defending themselves will almost under the European Convention on Human Rights, it inescapably drive up the costs of the Tribunals Service. is very important that the applicant—or appellant, as Has that been measured? Is it taken into account in he will have become—should be fully represented as these savings figures? These are the questions to which well. It would be quite improper, wrong and a breach we have to have answers. I do not want to see these of the convention if we were to have litigants in person amendments pressed to a Division tonight any more in front of the Second-tier Tribunal and beyond seeking than I did the previous one, but they enable us to say to put their case forward and to argue law as well as that we need to know what we are doing before we can fact. make a judgment in these matters. I sometimes have the feeling that the Ministry of I cannot stay for too much longer for reasons which Justice is living in the past. At one time, when the I hope the House will understand but there are all tribunal system was set up, it perhaps—I am not sorts of things that one could say. Mediation was convinced of it—did not require experience, skilled referred to earlier as well as alternative forms of advice advocacy and the putting together of a case. However, in one way or another. Again, we need to know just with all the legislation going through that my noble what the position is. I should make the point that friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury is concerned about mediation has absolutely nothing to do with social and with the new Bill on welfare law, it is clear that welfare. You cannot have mediation about whether there are going to be some very important issues of you are entitled to a benefit or not. You either are or law to be discussed at that level. Therefore it is quite you are not, although I accept that mediation may simply a statement of principle in Amendment 2 and have a part to play in some other areas about which we of practicality in the two other amendments to which are concerned. I have referred that I urge upon your Lordships for your consideration. Equality of arms is vital to justice, In any event, we keep hearing talk about more and nowhere more so than in the field of welfare law. I cost-effective ways—I do not know the exact phrasing—of beg to move. assistance, advice and so forth. But as has been said and as was illustrated in the debate on the CABs not Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, I shall intervene much more than a week ago, most sources of advice briefly. My remarks, such as they are—I hope they will are being squeezed either by this Bill—for example, not be long—apply also to quite a number of other the effect on law centres and other advisory services amendments for which I shall not be able to stay, some depending on pro bono work or legal aid work from of them in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bach. At lawyers—or by the squeeze on local authorities, which Second Reading, I indicated that I have a lot of is putting the bite on CABs. We then hear talk about sympathy with many of these concerns, not least those this, that or the other amount of money being available, 1723 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1724

[LORD NEWTON OF BRAINTREE] The Government have put forward various arguments but it is far from clear whether the Government know about why the legal aid system is not necessary for whether the availability of other forms of advice is tribunals, one of which is that the law is not sufficiently going up or down and whether the measures will have complex. I am sure that we will come back to those any significant effect in either direction. We need to arguments in greater detail. Earlier, we heard from the know more about all this before we can make a sensible noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, about how judgment. I am very grateful to my noble friend for Lord Scarman wrestled for three days with his cleaner’s having raised this issue, even though I hope that he social security problem, which does not surprise me at will not press it further tonight. all. The Government have suggested that people who Baroness Lister of Burtersett: My Lords, it is always need help can turn to Jobcentre Plus or the benefits a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Newton, advice line, but that is a bit like asking the victim of a who I am tempted to call my noble friend even though burglary to turn to the burglar for advice on how to technically he is not. I rise in support of Amendments 2, deal with it. I am not suggesting for a moment that 19 and 29 in particular, although I do so with some those employed at Jobcentre Plus are a group of trepidation because I am not a lawyer. After what my thieves but they are party to the case. The noble Lord, noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws said, perhaps Lord Newton, talked about mediation not being that is not such a bad thing after all. In fact, my first appropriate. Similarly, it is not appropriate to expect job was as a legal research officer with the Child Poverty those at the source of the problem in the first place—that Action Group. Many people assumed that I was a is, the state in the form of Jobcentre Plus—to give lawyer because the group did not have one in those advice on appealing against the decision. In their days. helpful report, the CPAG and Scope suggest that, From what we have already heard in relation to often, that advice is incomplete or incorrect. I acknowledge Amendment 1, this Bill is not about a narrow the very good job that many people working in Jobcentre understanding of the law; it is about an understanding Plus are doing but they are not there to provide of the law as an important instrument of citizenship. impartial advice to benefit claimants. These amendments are about something I spoke on at It is sometimes suggested that legal advice makes Second Reading, the relationship between the citizen the whole tribunal system too legalistic. But a number and the state. I cannot believe that any Member of of groups, including Citizens Advice, have made the your Lordships’ House wants to weaken the position point that providing good legal advice can keep people of the individual citizen against the state, yet my fear out of the tribunal system when they should not be is that that is what this Bill will do in Part 1. there—it is known as the triage role—and can send I am a believer in the state, particularly the welfare people to the right sources. Often, people think that state. But the state can loom very large and very they have a case to take to the tribunal system when oppressively in the lives of some of our most marginalised they do not but, if they do have a case, it is important citizens. It is really important that they can turn to the that they should feel comfortable going to the system. legal system in their relations with the state. I also Another argument is that the tribunal system is want to refer briefly—we will come back to this in user-friendly, but we have to think about who the users later amendments—to the importance of the tribunal of the system are. By and large, noble Lords probably system. One of my first pieces of work as legal research are not likely to have a social security problem and officer at the Child Poverty Action Group was on one have to appear before an appeal tribunal. We have to of the first empirical studies of the supplementary put ourselves in the shoes of those who do have to benefit appeal tribunal system. I was very privileged to appear before the tribunals and accept that, as the be supervised by the late Professor John Griffiths, who research carried out by Scope shows in relation to I think would be horrified by the measures in front of disabled people, this can be a very daunting experience. us today. It is very daunting to have to know what evidence you need to assemble in order to appear before the tribunal 6.45 pm and how to present your case. The appeal tribunal system of course has moved on since the 1970s. It is a very different system now. But If you simply appear without having been given any something I learnt then, which is as true today, is the support, often you will not even dare to go. The importance of people who appear before tribunals Minister has talked about being daunted at appearing having adequate advice and assistance if they are to be before eminent lawyers in this House, but I do not able to make their case. Another point I made at think that that is anything like as daunting as it is for a Second Reading is that social security law—welfare social security claimant to appear before a tribunal. law—has become much more complex since then. I These people may have had very damaging relationships prayed in aid the example of the CPAG’s national with the state in the past and therefore do not feel welfare benefits handbook. I wrote the first edition of confident about going before something as official as a that, which was about 20 pages. It is now 1,620 pages tribunal. and probably grows every year. Even though we hope The only other point I want to make is that we are that the Welfare Reform Bill ultimately will simplify not simply talking about first order appeals. What the system, it will still be very complex. The noble happens beyond those? I am talking about going to Lord, Lord Newton, has already referred to how the Court of Appeal, the Supreme Court and even the important it is that people are supported through such European Court of Justice. Even at that point legal big changes. aid will not be available to support people, with the 1725 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1726 result that important issues of welfare law may not be I have one point on the text which, if I may, I shall put adequately resolved. We are talking about a very small via the Minister to the mover. The reason I do so is number of cases, so I wonder if the Minister could tell that the coverage is very wide; that is to say, the us in his response just how much money is being saved amendment covers employment, housing and education by removing legal aid from that level of appeal. I add —not just other welfare services but a whole range of that to the important list of questions asked by the things that go very wide. My question concerns the noble Lord, Lord Newton. phrase, In conclusion, I return to the central point of these “in dispute with the state”. amendments. As we discuss all the aspects of Part 1, To a lawyer that may be absolutely clear, but as a but also as we consider the Bill as a whole, I hope that non-lawyer I am not clear about what is covered in we will bear in mind the central question of our terms of important bodies like local authorities and so responsibility to protect the rights of marginalised on. They are part of the state, but are they fully citizens in their relationship with the state. covered? Such a range of things is listed here that I would like some clarification on that. Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I agree with For example, what about a state-owned bank which every word that has been spoken so far. I say to my is in dispute with its staff about employment? Is that noble friend the Minister that it is easy for those who or is that not covered? I do not want to make too much have never been involved in what one might call social of this point because it is not a substantive one on the security law to underestimate the extent to which main objective but, if we have an amendment before so-called ordinary citizens can be completely baffled us, it is quite important to understand what the intention and often frightened by their engagement with it, of the mover is in relation to its coverage. certainly if one is talking about appeals; it is important for the Minister to note that the amendment, to which my name has been added, is only in respect of appeals Lord Dubs: My Lords, I am in broad agreement on points of law. I ask him to contemplate how he with the amendment, although again I share the would feel, with all his self-confidence and eloquence, reservation expressed just now by the noble Lord, if he had to go before any of the tribunals mentioned Lord Williamson, as to what is meant by the state. in Amendment 2, Does that mean central government, local government, “welfare benefits, employment, debt, housing, immigration, education, public bodies or other agents of the state? That needs and asylum”, to be made clear because in some of these areas there although heaven forfend that the Minister should appear might be a dispute with a local authority or even a before a tribunal in relation to asylum. Seriously, housing association. however, it is not reasonable to demand a citizen even Anyone who has been a Member of Parliament or a to decide whether he or she has a point of law which local councillor will know that at their Friday evening can be taken before a tribunal. It is simply unrealistic. and Saturday morning surgeries there will be people One could almost say it is cruel to pretend that we are who come in on all these issues. The question then is creating rights for those citizens most in need when where one refers them to. I am not absolutely clear they cannot even get advice and representation on whether the phrase, points of law at appeals. “appeals on any point of law”, Finally, I shall quote from the National Association is at a higher level or whether it refers to a first-instance of Citizens Advice Bureaux briefing that has been sent tribunal. That may reflect my lack of legal background. to us all because I am sure that we all share a huge However, if one has given advice as a Member of admiration for Citizens Advice. The association says Parliament or as a local councillor, one has to become that it agrees with the arguments made covering legal a little bit of an expert at triage in recommending assistance in the Upper Tribunals, which share the where one’s constituents should go for more specialised jurisdiction of the High Court and follow complex advice. I used to have the social security handbooks so procedural rules to hear appeals on points of law; and that I could look these things up, and one becomes not that most often it is either public bodies or large too bad at it. One is never an expert, but one needs to corporate employers that use these tribunals to appeal be good enough to know where to refer people, and decisions made in the claimant’s favour in lower tribunals, hence I appreciate that the amendment talks about and they instruct legal counsel to do so. It is important “advice, assistance and representation”. The reference to realise that it is not Mr Jones or Mrs Brown to “advice” is important because we all know that if appealing, but the public body they have worsted at there is a dispute between an individual and the state the tribunal appealing against the order made in their or local government, the individual needs help. favour. If these people are denied the right to legal I agree strongly with the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, representation, what sort of justice is that? It is not that this is too difficult for people. Some of us, even justice and I hope that, with regard to this amendment the non-lawyers, might have enough experience and and the others in the group, the Government will legal friends to give us advice, but for most people it is consider and agree to this change. too daunting a prospect. We even know from our surgeries how nervous people can get about going to Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, on an see their MP because MPs are authority figures. One amendment such as this it is important that we look needs to put them at their ease in order to discuss their first at the substance. This is an important and substantive issues with them. Expecting people to be unrepresented amendment, and in general I think it is a very good at a tribunal is simply an impossible suggestion. It is one. However, it is also important to look at the text. not going to work. People need further help in order 1727 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1728

[LORD DUBS] that anyone who gets to the second tier, the Court of to do that. So, while I like the amendment, I have my Appeal or even, heaven forbid, the Supreme Court, on doubts about the word “state”. However, I hope that it a point of law—for example, on a welfare benefits will help the argument along on what is a very important issue—should not have legal aid if they could not part of the difficulty that this Bill presents us with. afford their own lawyer to conduct their case, and I very much hope that the Government put it in the Bill 7pm in order to take it out. It is inconceivable that John Smith, as it were, could turn up alone at the Supreme Lord Hylton: I support the principle laid out in Court with his case and be faced with the Supreme Amendment 78, which is in this group, because appeals Court justices and the very experienced and brilliant will almost always involve points of law. However, I counsel representing the other side. I cannot think of urge the Government to think further about the kind any other Government, of any persuasion, ever having of legal advice that is essential to immigrants and thought of doing anything like that. I am quite sure asylum applicants at a much earlier stage in the process. that the Government of whom the noble Lord, Lord They cannot be expected to know when they leave Newton, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, their country of origin everything that is contained were distinguished members would not even have dreamt within the 1951 UN Refugee Convention, nor can of suggesting that someone should appear on their they be expected to know the highly complex law that own at a case like that without the benefit of legal aid. we now have in this country, much of which is expressed I very much hope that we do not hear too much more in statutes which refer to earlier statutes. about it. Therefore, I ask the Government to think deeply, as Some vital case law—on welfare benefits, for the previous Administration began to do when they example—has been decided at the higher courts as a set up the Solihull pilot project, about providing legal consequence of the claimants concerned having been advice to asylum seekers at a very early stage before properly legally represented. Big social security test even they have had their principal interview. That cases which reached the higher courts by way of the project has been going on for more than one year. I appeals process include Zalewska, on the lawfulness of hope that it will very soon be possible to draw practical the workers’ registration scheme; Hinchy, on the conclusions from it which can be extended to the interpretation of the overpayment recovery test; Pedro, whole country. on the meaning of “family member in EU law”; and Legal advice for these people does not necessarily Mallinson, the seminal case on the interpretation of have to be given by fully qualified solicitors or barristers the law on disability living allowance. The idea that who know or can be expected to look up the whole cases of that kind, or even those that are less important, range of English law; it needs to be given by persons should be conducted by a claimant in person is absurd. who understand the current content of immigration So I hope that the Government will accept Amendment 2 or asylum law. without cavil. Whether the wording is right is not a matter for tonight, but it is the principle that matters. Lord Bach: My Lords, I apologise to the Committee We argue in our Amendment 19, which is a probing for not being present during the first, very important amendment designed to find out what the Government debate. I hope that I informed the principal players in feel about it, that the law should go wider and that that debate that I would not be here for personal reasons there should be no question of taking out of scope —I had to go to a funeral of a dear friend. I am grateful reviews of welfare benefits. The amendment would to the Minister for welcoming me in the manner in ensure that individuals seeking to defend their fundamental which he did. However, when I came and heard my economic and social rights had the advice that they noble friend Lord Beecham making his speech, I wondered needed to be able to present their cases and understand why I bothered to come back at all. the processes that they would be subject to. Our amendment would allow the applicants to get advice before going to a tribunal. The First-tier Tribunals Lord Howarth of Newport: He was very good. were set up, as we have heard, to consolidate the various tribunals that adjudicate on administrative Lord Bach: That is what I mean—in case there is matters of the state. Admirable work has been done any misunderstanding about it. I can see how that and is being done to try to make First-tier Tribunals as could be misinterpreted. user-friendly as possible—I praise the noble Lord, As the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said, Lord Newton of Braintree, for having played a big with his Amendment 2, to which he spoke along with role in this, as well as Lord Justice Carnwath, whom his later amendments, Amendments 29 and 78, we get we should congratulate on being elevated to the Supreme down to the nitty-gritty. I want to talk briefly about Court today. Amendment 19, which is in my name and that of my Lord Phillips of Sudbury: The noble Lord’s mention noble friend Lord Beecham. It is the first outing of of Lord Justice Carnwath put me in mind of a fact what I think will be a very important issue in this which none of us has so far mentioned but which I Committee, which is what should happen to scope of invite him to endorse, which is that the amount of legal aid in particular areas of social welfare law. court and tribunal time wasted by having unrepresented The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and appellants has a cost attached to it. the others who spoke in favour of his amendment have been too gentle with the Government on this issue. It Lord Bach: I agree with the noble Lord and I shall is absolute nonsense that there could be any question say a little word about that before I sit down. 1729 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1730

Admirable work has been done in the First-tier If advice is given at that stage, hopeless cases, as has Tribunal to make it as friendly as one can. However, it been said, can be got rid of. First-tier Tribunals would is impossible—and the Minister has heard this from not be so clogged up in the future. The Committee will around the Committee today—to square the circle in remember what Judge Martin of the Social Entitlement that those tribunals still fundamentally are ruling on Chamber said about unrepresented defendants—that matters defined and decided through laws, rules and at least 10 per cent of time is wasted in explaining guidance, which is sometimes pretty heavy, that often what is going on. Proper cases can therefore go ahead carry criminal sanctions if violated. It is quite clear quicker. In particular, many legal issues can be sorted when one looks at official statistics on the First-tier out by the advice that is currently given so that the Tribunals that the Government are wrong when they wrong can be put right before the tribunal ever gets say that tribunals can be accessed without advice. You involved. are twice as likely to win an appeal if you have had That is what the present system does, although not some basic advice rather than no advice at all. The perfectly. Lots of people do not take advantage of it Minister’s team has kindly provided information that and sometimes it does not work, but more or less it allows us to quantify the increase in likelihood of works pretty well. People get their advice, which frankly winning an appeal if the appellant has been advised. does not cost very much money and lawyers certainly This is to the First-tier tribunal. For some types of cases, do not get rich on it. The truth is that many cases no such as employment support allowance, you are more longer have to go anywhere near a tribunal. It does not than twice as likely to win. Given that it allows people to encourage courts or tribunals: it actually avoids courts return to work, seeing thousands of cases that would and tribunals. That is why it is slightly ironic that the have been won with advice is surely wrong headed. Lord Chancellor said today in his Guardian article that legal aid’s, Lord Thomas of Gresford: Rather than saying that “broad scope means that problems are dragged straight to the cases would have been won, would the noble Lord not courtroom that could often be solved earlier and more simply use the expression “gained access to justice and obtained elsewhere”. the benefits to which they were entitled”? That comment is not his finest: I would go so far as to say that it is rather absurd. The type of legal aid that Lord Bach: In my legal career and otherwise, I have he seeks to abolish is exactly the type of legal aid always given way to better phrases used by Welsh that he should be encouraging and reinforcing lawyers and certainly by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas because it avoids courts and tribunals rather than of Gresford, and I do on this occasion too. Access to encouraging them. In fact it often has some sort of justice is rather important because you cannot win if mediating effect, and we know that mediation is an you do not have access to justice. One of the worries is important and proper part of the Government’s that the Bill will ensure that there is no access to justice policy in this field. for many who have had it up until now. The Minister has described himself today as a social The reasons for marked disparities is because appealing democrat and someone who has a copy of The Rule of on welfare benefits inevitably requires, as my noble Law by his bed. If he is a person of that sort, he must friend Lady Lister and the noble Lord, Lord Newton see the argument that has been put in the Committee of Braintree, have just mentioned, an understanding, tonight. whether we like it or not, of complex statutes and rules and guidance that govern how the state evaluates an 7.15 pm individual’s eligibility for legal aid. Had legal aid not been present in 2009-10, if we apply the success rate Lord McNally: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for those without advice to those who did receive for that summing up. I was well aware of his own deep advice, 51,223 people in total would have lost their concern about social welfare law and I am not surprised appeals. The long-term cost of supporting those people by the passion with which he deployed his arguments. is incalculable. Never mind Second-tier, Court of Appeal I was interested that he talked about advice. Quite and the Supreme Court; to take out of scope advice on often as this Bill goes through we will move between a review to the First-tier Tribunal is unfair and wrong. what is advice, what is legal advice and what is taxpayer legally paid advice. It may be that some of the areas of The effect of people not being able to exercise their concern are addressed by other means. rights is again frankly explained in the Government’s own impact assessment. The Government say that the On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas changes may lead to: of Gresford, about tribunals, I am advised that upper-tier tribunals are under a duty in accordance with the “Reduced social cohesion … Increased criminality … Reduced business and economic efficiency … Increased costs for other overriding objective to make sure that cases are dealt Departments … Increased transfer payments from other Departments, with fairly and justly. That includes, in particular higher benefits payments for people who spent their “avoiding unnecessary formality and seeking flexibility in proceedings”, savings on legal action”. and, In welfare benefit cases, it is not enough to have “ensuring, so far as practicable, that the parties are able to legal aid at the Second-tier Tribunal upwards. In fact, participate fully”. if you do not have it earlier you are unlikely to ever get I am also advised that legal aid is not available now to the Second-tier Tribunal or above. Advice is needed under the current system for representation at the when seeking to review, for example, DWP decisions Upper Tribunal or on welfare benefit cases, so we are before the First-tier Tribunal. It does not have to be not operating from a basis on which legal aid is as expensive or sophisticated legal advice, but it has to be generally available now, as some of the speeches might legal advice. have indicated. 1731 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1732

Baroness Lister of Burtersett: I might be wrong, but The definition of service in Clause 7 is wide enough is it not true that legal aid is available for advice for to cover the things that one would expect, such as advice people who attend those tribunals? from a high street solicitor about a case that a person wishes to bring. I can perhaps assure noble Lords that Lord McNally: The noble Baroness is an expert. legal advice and assistance in relation to tribunals is a She wrote a precursor to 1,620 pages of advice, so I service that is already encompassed in the description will accept that. We will have plenty of opportunities of legal proceedings in Clause 7(1). Indeed, “legal for correction if either of us is wrong. proceedings” is defined in Clause 41 as meaning, When I started as a Minister I started counting “proceedings before a court or tribunal”. the number of times the noble Lord, Lord Newton, We rely on this for the provision of services, including and I disagreed, but I have now stopped counting. advocacy, in, for example, mental health tribunals as Nevertheless, my love for him remains totally set out in paragraph 5 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 or in undiminished and I know of his own concern and paragraph 9 of Part 3 of Schedule 1. The definition of expertise in this area. He mentioned the danger of a legal services in Clause 7 is therefore wide enough to pincer movement, but a number of proposals that include legal help and indeed advocacy in proceedings are currently being considered across government before a court or tribunal, and this amendment is should make it easier for people to receive the right unnecessary. provision or entitlement in areas such as welfare, Amendments 2, 29 and 78 all broadly concern benefits and education. The most notable of these is appeals to the Upper Tribunal and appellate courts on the universal credit, which will help to reduce the a point of law. Amendment 2 seeks to make legal aid scope of error significantly, as it makes the whole available in relation to, benefits system simpler and easier to understand. The “appeals on any point of law in the fields of welfare benefits, Ministry of Justice is working closely with the employment, debt, housing, immigration, education, and asylum”, Department for Work and Pensions as part of its where an individual is in dispute with the state. wider welfare reform programme to improve the Amendment 29 seeks to make legal aid, including quality and effectiveness of initial decision-making in advocacy, available in social security appeals before social security applications, considerations within the the Upper Tribunal and appellate courts. Amendment 78 DWP and the system of subsequent appeals to would add a new paragraph to Schedule 1 and seeks to tribunal. That is another aspect. include appeals on a point of law, A number of people have asked about the impact of “from the Immigration and Asylum Chamber of the First-tier particular reforms. It has not always been acknowledged Tribunal to the Upper Tribunal, the Court of Appeal and the that other government actions might be improving the Supreme Court”, situation in some of these areas. It is always difficult to within the scope of legal aid. give the full impact of any particular measure. As the Lord Chancellor points out in his oft-quoted Guardian The categories of law in question include ones such article—I did not know there were so many Guardian as welfare benefits where tribunals are used. Legally readers in the House—part of the aim is, to a certain aided representation is not available for most tribunal extent, to change attitudes and approaches so that we hearings because tribunals are designed to be user-friendly, do not become overly reliant on legalistic solutions. without the need for legal representation. Indeed, There might well be changes, both beneficial and less legal aid is not currently available for legal representation beneficial, in the outcomes of some of the things that in point-of-law appeals on welfare benefits. Amendments 2 are going on. and 29 seek to extend legal aid even beyond its current I accept the point made by the noble Baroness, boundaries by providing legal representation for these Lady Lister, the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and others Upper Tribunal appeals. that appearing before a tribunal is daunting for the lay The Government have considered whether funding man. The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked me a remains justified for all appeals, regardless of the area specific question about the cost of legal aid appeals of law in which they arise. In the Government’s view, it to the Upper Tribunal on welfare benefit matters. I does not. Under the present scheme, funding is not am advised that at the moment we spend approximately provided for cases that are not considered a priority £1 million a year on legal aid for advice and representation for the scheme, such as defamation or business cases, on welfare benefit appeals to the Upper Tribunal and even where these take place in the High Court, the higher courts. I will come back to Amendment 2. Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court. We consider Amendment 19 deals with Clause 7, which defines that the ability of the client to represent their arguments what “legal services” and “civil legal services” mean and the importance and complexity of the issues will for the purposes of Part 1. Clause 7 provides an vary from case to case. The fact that a case is to be overarching definition, but the specific levels of service— heard in a higher court or tribunal does not automatically for example, legal help and legal representation—that mean that it will be particularly complex; nor will the will be available in any particular case will be set out in forum in which a case is heard outweigh other regulations made under Clause 10. This approach is considerations that determine our priorities for funding. based closely on the current model, where Section 4(2) The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, referred to immigration. of the Access to Justice Act 1999 describes the types of Since consultation, we have taken on board some of services that can in principle be funded, and the Legal the concerns raised, including those raised during the Services Commission’s funding code criteria set out passage of the Bill in another place on domestic the precise levels of service that are available in any violence and immigration cases. On the introduction particular case. of the Bill, we included in Part 1 of Schedule 1 funding 1733 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1734 for advice in asylum support cases concerning the 7.30 pm provision of accommodation. However, our fundamental Lord McNally: This is another moment in history. I position has not changed. It is our view that most have been heckled for mispronunciation by the noble immigration cases do not require a lawyer. I should Lord, Lord Prescott. I stand corrected. The exceptional make it clear, however—because some of the points funding scheme will provide an important safety net made by noble Lord, Lord Hylton, refer to asylum for cases in which an egregious inequality of arms cases—that asylum cases will remain within scope. I would lead to an obvious and unlawful unfairness in can assure noble Lords that funding is being retained, proceedings. including for advocacy, for a range of tribunal appeals. These include appeals to the First-tier Tribunal under We have had to make difficult choices about legal the Mental Health Act 1983 and appeals to the Upper aid. Our reforms to the scope of the scheme are Tribunal in special educational needs cases. Here, we designed to refocus civil legal aid on the most serious have focused our limited resources on the highest cases in which legal advice and representation is justified. priority cases. In social welfare law, education and immigration, we are reducing the availability of legal aid; but it will On the question of appeals to the Supreme Court, remain for cases with the highest priority, and we will we will continue to fund appeals to the High Court, continue to spend £50 million on social welfare law. the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court where the area of law to which the appeal relates remains in As I said in the other debate, I realise that noble scope. Again, this will allow for our limited resources Lords will want to study some of the things that I read to be focused on areas of higher relative priority. out at speed while referring and cross-referring to parts of the Bill. I think my noble friend indicated that Amendment 2 appears to suggest the requirement he will withdraw his amendment, and I hope he will, of an equality of arms with the state in such cases. The although I am making no promises of massive change. principle of equality of arms is clearly important but One of the crunch parts of this Bill as it passes is susceptible to misunderstanding. This amendment through the House will be whether we rightly judged implies that justice can be done only in a particular which areas we are withdrawing from the scope of case where both parties in proceedings have identical legal aid. The Lord Chancellor and my colleagues in representation. This is not a view supported by the government are confident that we have made the right law, or by the experience of many litigants who currently decisions, hard as they have been in some cases; so, as I appear before tribunals without the benefit of legally say, I hope that the noble Lord will, at this stage, aided representation. withdraw his amendment. The important question is whether an imbalance in representation gives rise to an obvious unfairness in Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I thought I the proceedings. The case law on Article 6 of the detected in the last few sentences the possibility of ECHR sets out the circumstances in which legal aid some movement in this area, but despite that the final will be required to guard against an obvious unfairness sentence was a killer. I am very disappointed with my in proceedings. In determining this question, it is noble friend’s response to what I considered to be an necessary to consider all the circumstances of the case, overwhelming case. If you cannot get legal aid for the including the nature of the rights at stake, the complexity Second-tier Tribunal, the Court of Appeal and above, of the law, the capacity of the individual to represent as of right, we really are in a very parlous position. I themselves and whether there are alternative means of assure my noble friend that I shall press him on these securing access to justice. In many cases, for example matters in the future. I thank all noble Lords for their before tribunals, the procedure is relatively straightforward participation in this debate and say to your Lordships and there are sufficient safeguards in place to ensure that the state in Amendment 2 is widely defined to that the absence of legal representation on one side include local authorities, government organisations does not lead to an unjust outcome. and so on. That is quite well understood when we deal Clause 9 provides for an exceptional funding scheme with the concept of equality of arms. that will continue to ensure the protection of an individual’s rights to legal aid under the European While I listened to my noble friend’s summing up, I Convention on Human Rights as well as the rights to was reminded of the one person I know quite well who legal aid that are directly enforceable under European appeared as a litigant in person in the Divisional Union law. I must emphasise that the threshold here is Court and won—my noble friend Lady Walmsley. The very high—as the name suggests, they will have to be authority concerned went to appeal, where she was exceptional cases. However, in cases in which Article 6 represented by a leading counsel, who is now a High of the ECHR is engaged, the exceptional funding Court judge, and by my son, who is a Queen’s Counsel scheme will provide an important safety net for those in his own right, and lost. Fortunately her costs were in which an egregr— all paid by the authority concerned. It takes an exceptional person to be able to take a case before a judge as a Lord Eatwell: Egregious. litigant in person and argue it through. The Government have underestimated just how exceptional that person Lord McNally: Thank you, Cambridge. This is the has to be. For the moment, and subject to what I shall value of the House of Lords—there is always an say at a later date, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment. expert around to help you. Queens’ College, Cambridge, comes to my aid. Amendment 2 withdrawn. Lord Prescott: The noble Lord would not have House resumed. Committee stage to begin again not made that mistake if he had not been reading it out. before 8.35 pm. 1735 Public Service Pensions[LORDS] Public Service Pensions 1736

Public Service Pensions have been clear that all accrued rights will be protected, Statement in full; and that the taxpayer needs to be properly protected from future risks associated with further increases in life expectancy by linking scheme normal 7.36 pm pension age to state pension age. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord In November, we improved the offer to a one-60th Sassoon): My Lords, I will now repeat a Statement accrual rate, an increase of 8 per cent that is available made earlier today in another place by my right only in the event of agreement being reached, together honourable friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. with protection for those 10 years from retirement. I “Mr Speaker, with permission, I would like to make would like to pay tribute to the Minister for the a Statement on the reform of public service pensions. Cabinet Office, the TUC and the scheme negotiators Seven weeks ago, I reported to the House that in an on both sides for their efforts to reach agreement. effort to secure agreement, the Government were making I am pleased to report that heads of agreement have a new offer to public service workers. Despite some now been established with most unions in the local unnecessary interruptions, scheme negotiators have government, health, Civil Service and teachers’ schemes. been working hard to reach detailed heads of agreement It will of course now be for union executives and by the end of the year deadline that we set. memberships to decide their response. These heads of It has not been an easy task, but this Government agreement deliver the Government’s key objectives in have demonstrated that they will not shy away from full, and do so with no new money since our November taking difficult long-term decisions in the nation’s offer. In future, scheme pension ages will match the long-term interest. We wish to see pensions for public state pension age, future schemes will be on a career- service workers that are fair, sustainable, provide dignity average basis, and all the agreements are within the in retirement and are affordable to both those workers cost ceilings I set in November and will save the and to taxpayers. That is why we committed in the taxpayer tens of billions over the decades to come. coalition agreement to establishing an independent commission to bring forward proposals for reform. Because heads of agreement have been reached, the Lord Hutton’s magisterial report did just that. We better offer I made in November has been secured by have stuck closely to the recommendations of the trade unions for their members, including the no-change former Labour Work and Pensions Secretary throughout guarantee for workers 10 years from retirement. The this process. heads of agreement also deliver a number of the key objectives set out by the trade unions during the talks. The case for reform is self-evident. The average Negotiations on these heads of terms are now concluded. 60 year-old today is living longer now than they did in We and the unions agree that this is the best outcome the 1970s. It means people are living in retirement that can be achieved by negotiation. This is the longer—the life expectancy of a 60 year-old was 18 years Government’s final position and we will bring forward in the 1970s, but has risen to 28 years today. As a result legislation to the House. The full details of the heads the costs of public service pensions have risen to of agreement in each scheme are today being set out in £32 billion a year, an increase of one-third over the Written Statements by each department. past 10 years. We have already made some changes that deal with short-term pressures, including changing The key changes made are as follows. In the Civil the basis of pension uprating to CPI, and increasing Service, we have agreed to revalue each year’s contribution member contributions by 3.2 percentage points, phased by CPI rather than earnings, allowing an accrual rate over three years. of 44ths to be offered. This costs the same as our Next year’s contribution increase is almost identical original offer, but with a configuration preferred by to that planned by the previous Government. The the trade unions. As a consequence, the new scheme precise details of next year’s increase have been set out will be very similar to the nuvos scheme already available by departments—all are tiered by income to protect within the Civil Service, except that in future the the lower-paid. The Government will review the impact normal pension age will be linked to the state pension of next year’s increases, including on opt-outs and age as it rises. It is therefore disappointing that the equality, before taking final decisions on how future PCS has rejected the heads of agreement and walked increases will be delivered. Interested parties will have away from the talks. the opportunity to provide evidence and views to the I have previously made the point that the local Government. government scheme must be treated differently because I know that many Members of the House will be it is a funded scheme. The Local Government Association concerned about pay and conditions of our Armed and the trade unions have agreed that the pension age Forces. Let me be clear. Members of the Armed in the new scheme will be linked to the state pension Forces will continue to make no contributions towards age, and that their preference is to deliver a career-average their pensions and will be exempt from the increases scheme. Further discussions will take place over the announced at the spending review. next three months to agree the details. In health, we From the beginning of this process, we have committed have agreed to a revised revaluation factor of CPI plus to ensuring that public service schemes continue to 1.5 per cent. This allows the accrual rate to be improved offer a defined benefit pension based on the size of to one-54th. In education, we have agreed to a revised workers’ salary—not dependent on the market revaluation factor of CPI plus 1.6 per cent, allowing performance of a fund, and not available to most for the accrual rate to be improved to one-57th, along people in the private sector. From the beginning, we with modest improvements to early retirement factors. 1737 Public Service Pensions[20 DECEMBER 2011] Public Service Pensions 1738

All these heads of agreement are within the cost For people who depend on our public services, it ceiling I set out in November, but in a configuration means that most unions will be asking executives to preferred by the unions. Discussions on police, Armed lift the threat of further strike action while work is Forces, judiciary and fire service schemes have been a done to conclude the final agreement, and I hope that separate process from the start, and proposals will be the remaining unions do the same. For the taxpayer, it brought forward in due course. means that tens of billions of pounds extra that would Let me turn to some other aspects of these deals. have been spent on unreformed pensions over the next All of these agreements include a cap on taxpayer 30 years is now available for other pressing demands. costs at 2 percentage points above or below the scheme These are reforms that significantly improve the valuation. This cap is symmetrical, so employees will long-term fiscal sustainability of this country and benefit if costs fall. As Lord Hutton made clear, with reinforce the credibility of our fiscal stance. The Office the other aspects of reform now agreed, there is no for Budget Responsibility will provide a forecast of reason to believe that under normal circumstances this these savings in its next fiscal sustainability report. For cap will be used. It is there as protection for taxpayers industrial relations, I believe this shows that it is and for workers if extraordinary, unpredictable events possible to reach agreement through negotiation in occur. In the course of all these talks, unions have good faith, based on clear objectives. That is the right stressed the importance of ensuring that their members way to approach relations between government and will continue to be able to receive the benefits of these the trade unions. In these difficult times, it is important schemes if they are outsourced. This is the purpose of to show that people can come together to achieve the fair deal policy, the future of which we have been genuine reform, preserving the best of the past but consulting on. Because we have agreed to establish recognising the realities of the future. This is a fair new schemes on a career-average basis, I can tell the deal for public service workers, an affordable deal for House that we have agreed to retain the fair deal the taxpayer and a good deal for the country. I commend provision and extend access for transferring staff. this Statement to the House”. The new pensions will be substantially more affordable My Lords, that concludes the Statement. to alternative providers and it is right that we offer workers continued access to them. In addition, the 7.47 pm Government will consider what practical options might Lord Eatwell: My Lords, it is important to remember be available to reform the terms of access to the NHS that what we are discussing is the reduction in the pension scheme, in particular for NHS staff who move lifetime living standards of a significant proportion of to a non-NHS “any qualified provider” delivering the people of this country. We are discussing the fact NHS services. At the same time, by offering transferred that the real incomes of public service workers will, in staff the right to remain members of the public service retirement, be significantly lower than they had every scheme, we are no longer requiring private, voluntary right to expect when they took up their positions in and social enterprise providers to take on the risks of the public service. When the noble Lord speaks of defined benefit that deter many from bidding for contracts “reform” of public service pensions, he means reduction in the first place. of public service pensions, and when he speaks of Replacing so-called bulk transfers of pensions with saving, continued access to public sector schemes means that “the taxpayer tens of billions over the decades to come”, we continue to protect public service workers’ pensions, he means reducing the incomes of pensioners by tens manage the risk to the taxpayer and forge ahead with of billions over the decades to come. our ambitious plans on public sector reform. I have committed that these reforms will be sustained for at Noble Lords will be aware of the difficult choices least 25 years. The Government intend to include that we all face over the question of pensions. The provisions in the forthcoming public service pensions excellent report a few years ago by the noble Lord, Bill to ensure that a high bar is set for future Governments Lord Turner, and the recent study by my noble friend to change the design of the schemes. Lord Hutton have spelt out the consequences of lower birth rates and greater longevity for the provision of What does this deal really mean? For our workforce, pensions. Given that the standard of living of everyone it means they will continue to receive the best quality depends on the goods and services produced by the pensions available in this country—and rightly so. working population, the smaller the working population These pensions could be bought in the private sector is in relationship to the whole the more difficult it only at the cost of one-third of salary. This is a proper becomes to provide for the non-working pensioners. reward for a lifetime’s commitment to serving the The choices that need to be made when facing such a public. This new scheme is fairer to women too. By major, secular shift in demography and in the economy moving to career average, we will be giving a better should have been the subject of bipartisan national pension in future to those, mainly women, who have debate. They should have been approached with the low or steady salaries throughout their careers. clear understanding that what is under consideration The Government have been clear that, because we is the decision to reduce lifetime living standards. are living longer, public service workers must work a In his report, oft cited by the Government, my bit longer and pay a little more for their pensions but, noble friend Lord Hutton stressed the need to approach in return, we have also made an important commitment: these issues in a careful and balanced way, with particular that at retirement, those on low and middle incomes care for the impact of any increased contributions on will get at least as good a pension as they do now. I can lower-paid public service workers, and the need to confirm today that we have met that commitment. sustain high-quality, reliable pensions provision. Having 1739 Public Service Pensions[LORDS] Public Service Pensions 1740

[LORD EATWELL] 7.52 pm people retire into poverty, dependent on state benefits in their old age, cannot be an answer under any Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am sorry that the noble circumstances. In taking up my noble friend’s points, Lord, Lord Eatwell, does not welcome the deal that the Government failed on both counts by seeking to the Government have come to today with the great impose a steep rise in contributions and a permanent majority of unions in the public sector. The Government switch in indexation from RPI to CPI, neither of must get a grip on the significant increases in the cost which measures formed part of my noble friend’s of providing public sector pensions that have simply recommendations. arisen from the fact that people are living longer. That is why we asked the noble Lord, Lord Hutton of The consequence of this arbitrary and authoritarian Furness, the Work and Pensions Secretary in the previous approach to reducing the lifetime incomes of some of Government, to look at the current position and identify the lowest-paid people in the country was 10 months whether further reform was required. The noble Lord, of stalemated negotiations and then strike action, in Lord Hutton, set out an overwhelming case for reform, many cases by people who had never dreamed that saying that, they would ever go on strike. The strike on 30 November, “the status quo is not tenable”, a strike that could and should have been avoided, seems to have brought the Government to their senses. and that, We on this side of the House are pleased that the “Future costs are inherently uncertain”, people who rely on public services, as well as millions and that at present, of public sector workers, can approach the holiday “the … public cannot be sure that schemes will remain sustainable season knowing that proper negotiations are taking in the future”. place at last and that a solution that is fair to pensioners It is based on his recommendations that we have and fair to taxpayers may be on the horizon. reached an agreement with the unions today. We are pleased that the Government have at last It is a good deal. It ensures that public service recognised the need to protect the lowest-paid from pensions will remain among the very best available. If unaffordable increases in contributions, the need to members retire later, as most of them will, most of reassure older employees worried about how long they them will not see a reduction in the pension that they will have to work and the need to ensure that people receive at retirement; indeed, many of them will get who dedicate their working lives to our public services more than they would now. I do not think that the can expect a decent income in retirement. It is important noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, recognises that. The deal that, in any proper national consideration of how best delivers on our objectives to ensure that most low and to tackle the changing demographic factors behind middle earners working a full career will receive pension pensions provision, the Government should provide benefits at least as good as, if not better than, what the fullest and clearest information on what is proposed they would get now. and on the consequences for public service workers at all levels of income. I turn to the specific questions that the noble Lord asked me. On the increases in contributions, the scheme- For each of the four schemes under consideration, by-scheme contributions for 2012-13 are set out on the what are the new proposals for contribution increases? respective departmental websites. They follow on from What is the timetable according to which they will be separate consultations that were held over the summer. introduced? How do the Government intend to ensure The average is a 3.2 per cent increase over three years, that the new contributions are affordable for lower-paid with 40 per cent of that increase falling in the first year workers, including part-time workers? What assessment and 40 per cent in the second, building up to the full have the Government made of the impact that their increase in the third and final year. The projections are proposed changes might have on the number of public that anyone with earnings below £15,000 will face no service workers opting out of the scheme, of the increase and that those between £15,000 and £21,000 impact that this may have on future pensioner poverty of earnings will have their contributions increased by and of consequential demands on state benefits? In only 1.5 per cent over the three years. Individual taking steps to increase the pension age, what allowance schemes have worked out other particular protections; do the Government intend to make for those in physically health, for example, has protected those earning up to demanding jobs where the current retirement age £26,000 by having no increase in the first year. from that particular line of work may indeed be On the question of part-time workers, it is the case appropriate? that all public service scheme members, whether full-time Most importantly, the Government must now realise or part-time, are included, apart from those within that a pensions agreement in the public services should 10 years of retirement who are, as I have explained, be for the long term and should be part of the fundamental protected. The lower-paid will not pay more for their relationship between Government and people, whichever pensions. The pension benefits themselves are based party is in power. How will the Government make on full-time equivalent earnings and it is appropriate good on their promise to deliver a deal that is secure that the contributions are calculated, as are benefits, and sustainable for the next 25 years? Will they learn on the same basis. There are approximately 350,000 from their errors of the past year and understand at part-time workers in local government, where alternatives last that a properly informed public debate, and an to contribution increases are being considered, and a appropriately negotiated agreement with strong bipartisan further 150,000 part-time workers would be partially support, is the only way to achieve a fair and lasting protected as their full-time earnings are less than agreement? £21,000. 1741 Public Service Pensions[20 DECEMBER 2011] Public Service Pensions 1742

On the question of opting out, the general point to struggle but we did not have the strikes that we have make is that there is no reason why members should witnessed on this occasion. We have learnt that there is do so. There will remain a strong economic rationale a heads of agreement with the unions, and we hope for them to remain in their schemes, and it is important that they will move to some sort of agreement. The that all employees in the public sector hear that message Minister mentioned this in his contribution. However, clearly. Beyond that, we have committed to reviewing tonight we learn that another letter has been written the impact of opt-outs following the increase in members’ by the Secretary of State for the Environment, Mr Pickles, contributions. We will do that before final decisions who is well known as the rogue elephant in the Cabinet, are taken on how future increases are made. It needs which states that the limits to be placed on the employers’ to be borne in mind that it would cost a member contribution are quite different from what the Treasury around 30 per cent of their earnings to purchase is saying. Will the Minister say which letter is operating equivalent benefits in the private market. in these negotiations? I am told that the letter I have I turn to the question of the increase in pension age mentioned has been withdrawn. Is Mr Pickles in charge and the effect of that, particularly on those in physically or the Treasury as regards the difference between the demanding jobs. For the armed services, firefighters two schemes? Will the Minister explain that to us? and police, the noble Lord, Lord Hutton of Furness, recommended an earlier retirement age of 60, and we Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am happy to try to clear accept that recommendation. For the other schemes, up any misunderstandings on this. As the DCLG has we have agreed that the retirement age will be the state made clear this afternoon, it is in discussion with the retirement age, the same age when other citizens will unions to resolve any misunderstanding and reassure receive their state pension. It will be for employers to them that the intentions of the department and of the review the appropriateness of certain jobs for older Government have not changed. It would seem that the employees and to make appropriate arrangements for unions have read more into the letter that was issued staff possibly to move into alternative roles as necessary. today than was intended by the DCLG. No new The NHS, for example, has already agreed to set up a conditions are being imposed by the department. In tripartite review involving the department, NHS employers order to iron out any ambiguity, the department will and the NHS trade unions which will look at addressing be issuing a new letter to make clear that there is no the impact of working longer in the NHS, with particular ambiguity, there is only one deal and there are no reference to staff on the front line and in physically conditions. Therefore, I am confident that this can be demanding roles, including emergency services. I accept resolved quickly, but as noble Lords will understand, that this is an important point but it is one which is there have been many deals with a lot of unions and already being addressed. several departments. We must clear up this ambiguity On the final questions of the noble Lord, Lord that has slipped in on one particular aspect. Eatwell, around how the Government will be able to deliver a commitment on no further reform for 25 years, Baroness Kramer: My Lords, the Government and the critical point here is that we have set out a position the unions that have signed the heads of agreement that is not only fair and sustainable for those who deserve congratulations on having achieved this in this work in the public sector but is a reform that is day and age, given the immediate financial pressures sustainable in terms of the public finances. I reiterate and the reality that we will all live much longer and the point that, as the Government address the very therefore need pensions for a much longer period in difficult fiscal position that we inherited and as we our lives. They have achieved an agreement that retains compare ourselves with countries in Europe and elsewhere, defined benefit schemes—when the private sector has this is an important reform that will underpin the essentially abandoned that and gone on to defined fiscal sustainability of the public finances for many contribution schemes—and have provided protection years to come. Therefore, I believe that no further for those approaching retirement and for those on the reform should be necessary for 25 years. To give lowest incomes. That is a real achievement by both substance to this, we intend to include provisions on sides and we ought to acknowledge it. the face of the forthcoming primary legislation to However, I wish to ask the Minister two questions. ensure that a high bar is set for future Governments to Can he clarify for us where the negotiations now stand change the schemes, as I said in repeating the Statement. with the PCS? The experience that has been described tonight demonstrates that negotiation has to be the 8.01 pm way forward, not strikes. The Minister said that the Lord Prescott: My Lords, having listened to the PCS had walked away. The newspapers used the phrase, Minister claiming the support of the noble Lord, Lord “not invited to future talks”. Can he clarify what he Hutton—the architect of the scheme—for his sees as the progress that can be made in that regard— interpretation, and then having listened to my noble preferably progress which does not inflict any more friend Lord Eatwell give a different interpretation, I strikes on the long-suffering British public? am all the more sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Secondly, can the Minister expand a little on an Hutton, is not here to give his interpretation. I wish to area I find most intriguing: namely, the position of ask the Minister a question, as in 2008 I negotiated staff transferring from the public service to the voluntary pension agreements with local government workers. or private sectors or to social enterprises who will That is a different pension scheme from the state one retain access to a public service pension? I cite the as it is funded by the employers and the employees. We example of the NHS in that regard. Should we see that made major changes in that pension agreement which in narrow terms, or are we moving towards an I do not have time to explain. We did that with a arrangement which will allow a much more flexible 1743 Public Service Pensions[LORDS] Public Service Pensions 1744

[BARONESS KRAMER] That leads to the point that we must get on with structure for future public services as technology and improving pension provision in the private sector. The demand change, creating the opportunity for movement Adair Turner report on auto-enrolment has been stymied in and out of different organisational arrangements? to some extent. Is it not important that we do not have Is this the first building block of something larger, or a race for the bottom as regards pensions? I am glad is it just something to be seen narrowly within the that we have drawn back from that to some extent. terms of this negotiation? Am I not right in thinking that CPI has been selected instead of RPI because CPI has been growing Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble more slowly in recent years? Would the Government friend for welcoming this deal. She rightly points out have preferred CPI to RPI if it had been growing that it means that public sector workers have among faster? I have been around for long enough to know the best pensions available in this country, including that that is exactly how the Treasury thinks. I ask the defined benefit schemes which are not now generally Minister whether he agrees with me that there is a available to people entering private sector schemes. position in the final set of correspondence which Therefore, I endorse entirely her comments in that refers to CPI plus 1.5 per cent or 1.6 per cent, and that respect. that is the rationale for some of the arithmetic, which— understandably, given the Government’s predicament—is The PCS has not agreed to put the final design of based on getting more in for the Treasury, hence the the Civil Service scheme to its executives. It is important 3 per cent take-away. to remember that the PCS represents fewer than 5 per cent of the members of the public service schemes and Finally, is this not also the time to say, given the discussions will continue without it. We believe that huge growth in pension pots for the top 0.1 per cent of the final deal—it is a final deal—is a good one and people—which is scandalous and is getting up the that the remaining unions will recommend it to their nose of everyone in the country, apart from that members. We are clear that what has been set out 0.1 per cent—that the idea that we are all in this today is the Government’s final position. together is a bad joke, unless that issue is also addressed? My noble friend asked about the ability of members exiting a public sector employer to remain in the Baroness O’Cathain: My Lords— pension scheme under the “Fair Deal”provision. Implicit in her question was the notion that this may have wider implications. I certainly think that this opens up Lord Sassoon: I am sorry—I thought there was a all sorts of possibilities, whether in relation to the new and welcome procedure whereby Back-Benchers mutualisation of services or the ability of people to could answer questions on my behalf. That is an come in and out of the public sector. excellent idea, but it might require discussion before we do something so radical. I should first be clear about the interesting analysis Lord Lea of Crondall: I echo the opening remark of of the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, on how we the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, in referring to the have got to this point and what else we should be constructive nature of the recent negotiations, albeit doing. When he talks about an eleventh-hour deal, it is at the eleventh hour. I hope that the Minister will take worth reminding the House that the final deal was put care in saying who represents 5 per cent of what. One on the table by the Government on 2 November. The minute he is talking about the total public sector agreement today is entirely in line with what was put negotiation and the next minute he picks out a on the table then, well ahead of the strike action on statistic which is to do with the Civil Service. We ought 30 November. to be very careful not to pick and mix in that particular The question around CPI and RPI broadly relates way. to the nature of the deal whereby individual negotiations I hope that the Minister will comment on a general were carried out, scheme by scheme, around the level point: namely, now that we have reached where we of benefit accrual and indexation rates. That is why we have got to, it would be very useful for all of us to allowed considerable flexibility for the unions to vary discourage people from going in for rhetoric such as the balance of factors within the total cost caps that many Members of the Minister’s party, both in this were set. That is why a variety of different approaches House and in the Commons, have indulged in. Their was taken. There was considerable flexibility within slogan can be summarised as, “Private sector employment the overall parameters set by the Treasury. is productive; public sector employment is unproductive”. As to the question of what people in the private It is not just the Daily Mail, the Daily Express, the sector should be doing, perhaps we had better stick to Daily Telegraph and the Murdoch newspapers that say public sector pensions, which are very important and that—it is members of his own party in this House should be what we are talking about. and the other House. I do not mean that anyone in this House tonight has said that, but it has been said on other occasions. Such comments are quite ridiculous. Baroness O’Cathain: I must apologise to my noble People will think that nurses and teachers are friend for jumping up. It is just that I was slightly unproductive, and that hedge fund managers and second- goaded by the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall. I hand car dealers are productive. Is it not time that, in a want to come back to him about the CPI versus RPI modern social democracy or mixed capitalist economy—I issue, because I have a pretty long memory, too. In the do not mind what you call it—we agreed that that is a early stages of the Monetary Policy Committee and ludicrous way of dividing people up? the Labour Government, there were endless discussions 1745 Public Service Pensions[20 DECEMBER 2011] Consumer Insurance Bill 1746 every month about the RPI. One of the reasons that Taken together, these two amendments will mean the statisticians wanted to move to the CPI was so that that insurance companies are expected to have to show they could get month-by-month comparisons with that they told their policyholder that answering questions mainland Europe—the EU. That is exactly why it on renewal was important. However, they also avoid happened, and then it all started to go wrong. We some unintended consequences of including this should have a discussion off the Floor of the House requirement in its current form as part of Clause 2. and go to the Library to look at all that. It was fascinating stuff, and an enormous number of people These amendments address something which the wanted to go for the CPI, as opposed to the RPI. Bill Committee touched on extensively in its deliberations. There was much discussion of the implications of the Bill for consumers renewing insurance. Renewal involves Lord Lea of Crondall: I should be very glad to have entering into a new contract and consumers are therefore such a discussion, but I have an even longer memory. under the same obligation as when first purchasing For many years, I represented the TUC on the Retail their policy—that is, they must take reasonable care to Prices Index Advisory Committee, which was abolished answer the insurer’s questions, or the insurer may be by the Treasury when we made a recommendation entitled to refuse a later claim. Noble Lords were that it did not like. The recommendation in about concerned that consumers might not recognise the 1970 was that we should stick with the RPI for general significance of questions asked on renewal, as they purposes because— may not understand that it is a new contract, and as a result might not take sufficient care to answer these Lord De Mauley: My Lords, we must move on. questions. The Government agree that insurers should take Lord Lea of Crondall: I am quite entitled to come in measures to ensure that their consumers are aware of for a second time within the 20 minutes. I have been the importance of responding to questions which they asking a question. Is there not a case for looking at are asked at renewal. However, as I mentioned, to which index should be used, based on considerations ensure that the effect of this change to the Bill reflects other than which one is likely to increase more slowly the wishes of noble Lords, we felt that it was necessary than the other? to come forward with alternative drafting. There are some relatively small drafting points. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, this was a negotiation The inserted text splits subsections of the current between the unions and the employers. It was a choice clause which need to run together, and the phrase regarding accrual rates and indexation, and the unions “make clear” may be a difficult standard. However, have expressed a preference for going for that measure most importantly, it leaves no remedy for an insurer of inflation, essentially as a way of funding better who has not included the right wording, even if the accrual rates. That was just the nature of the negotiations. consumer’s failure to reply was a deliberate or reckless misrepresentation. I am sure that the Committee did not intend to give consumers a “get out of jail free Consumer Insurance (Disclosure and card” in circumstances where they knowingly and Representations) Bill [HL] deliberately deceived their insurer. The amendment Report therefore removes the drafting accepted in Committee stage and substitutes an alternative in Clause 3. That explicitly adds to the list of factors that a court may 8.18 pm take into account, when determining whether a consumer acted reasonably, whether the insurer communicated Clause 2 : Disclosure and representations before the importance of answering questions on renewal. contract or variation Both the Association of British Insurers and the Investment and Life Assurers Group agree that that is a more suitable approach. Amendment 1 There are many ways in which an insurer may Moved by Lord Sassoon communicate the importance of answering questions 1: Clause 2, page 2, line 9, leave out subsection (5) at renewal. The Committee discussed whether wording which explicitly told the consumer that they were entering into a new contract would achieve that. That The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord is indeed one way in which an insurer may communicate Sassoon): My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 1, which the importance of answering questions as required by leaves out Clause 2(5). This subsection was added to the amendment. the Bill following acceptance of an amendment in Committee. I will also speak to Amendment 2, which It might be helpful if I set out for noble Lords proposes an alternative, and—I hope that the House current market practice at renewal and the effects of will agree—improved approach to addressing the the amendment in this context. An insurer will often Committee’s concerns about renewal of insurance send the consumer a letter to say that their insurance is contracts. Having considered the amendment accepted up for renewal. Market best practice is usually to send by the Committee, we felt it was necessary to come a list of the facts that the consumer told them the last forward with alternative drafting to achieve what noble time. The consumer is asked to read and consider the Lords had in mind through the original amendment. list, and to contact the insurer if the facts have changed. 1747 Consumer Insurance Bill[LORDS] Consumer Insurance Bill 1748

[LORD SASSOON] and, I believe, delivers what, in Committee, noble In motor insurance, it is common practice for insurers Lords wanted to achieve. My understanding of the to renew the policy even if the consumer fails to reply. process is that, if there had been a problem with the It is now a criminal offence for a motorist to allow technical raising of the amendment, the Public Bill their car insurance to lapse without notifying the Office would have raised questions on it. Therefore, I Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency and we therefore believe that both in substance and in form the right welcome any practice which makes renewal a simple things have been done. process for the consumer. If nothing has changed, there is no need for the consumer to reply, but if Lord Eatwell: I think that the noble Lord is something has changed and the consumer fails to contradicting himself. He said that it was what noble respond, this is capable of being a misrepresentation. Lords wanted to achieve when they voted on the As my noble friend Lady O’Cathain stated during the amendment in Committee, yet he says that it is not last Committee sitting, it may be that nothing has identical in effect. That does not seem consistent. changed in relation to your car insurance. Alternatively, However, let us move on. you may have been convicted of a new driving offence Turning to the substance of the amendment, I which you should tell your insurer about. As a result accept that its placement in the Bill is superior to that of this amendment, the insurer should clearly which I proposed in Committee, and for that I am communicate the importance of mentioning such changes. grateful. However, the intention of the Committee was If the letter is poorly laid out or in very small print, or that insurers would be required to make clear to if it fails to tell the consumer that failing to mention consumers that when a policy was renewed, it would in changes may lead to claims being refused, then a fact be a new policy, and consequently the importance consumer may act reasonably in overlooking it. of questions asked would be of the same order as In circumstances where the consumer fails to respond when new business was written. As many noble Lords because they did not understand the implications, argued in Committee, they were not aware of this—indeed, the insurer would be expected to show that they told I believe that the Minister himself admitted that he the consumer how important it was to respond to the was not aware of it—and they could well understand a questions at renewal time. The insurer would know consumer failing to be aware of it too. This lack of that it could not just point to the consumer’s oversight. awareness might result in the consumer taking insufficient This last important point was teased out in Committee care in answering questions posed by the insurer. and was, I believe, noble Lords’ real intention. I believe The Government’s amendment does not refer explicitly that the amendment addresses the concerns raised by to the fact that a renewal is a new contract and hence noble Lords during those discussions. this is not of identical effect. Instead, it proposes the vague test of, Lord Eatwell: My Lords, as I have stated throughout “how clearly the insurer communicated the importance of answering our proceedings, we on this side of the House fully those questions (or the possible consequences of failing to do so)”. support the Bill as a measure which makes a major That is a very vague rendition of what was intended by improvement to the relationship between insurer and the amendment in Committee. Instead of being explicit, insured in consumer insurance. We have sought to the matter is now to be left to the courts to decide. improve the Bill, making clear elements of the drafting However, I note that the Minister stated that explicitly which were unclear or which, on careful examination, telling the consumer that they were entering into a did not correspond to the declared intentions of the new contract would be “one way” in which the insurer Law Commission and therefore required amendment. could communicate the importance of the questions Accordingly, in Committee I proposed the amendment asked at renewal. I fully expect that the ABI and the to which the noble Lord has referred and which in due ILAG will draw this passage in Hansard to the attention course the Committee passed almost unanimously, the of their members and that it will form a background only dissenting voice being that of the Minister himself. to any subsequent court proceedings. On that basis, I Before dealing with the substance of the Minister’s shall raise no objection to the government amendment. amendments, I first ask him whether he consulted the Finally, I would be grateful if the Minister would Companion before tabling them. Paragraph 8.133 states clear up the matter raised in Committee by the noble that, Lord, Lord Goodhart, and not subsequently resolved. “an issue which has been debated and voted on in committee can be reopened, provided that the relevant amendment is more than That is the relationship between Clause 5(1) and cosmetically different from that moved in committee”. Clause 5(3). As the noble Lord, who is in his place, When we look for the meaning of “cosmetically different”, pointed out, they seem to duplicate one another and earlier in the same paragraph it is stated that amendments hence, potentially, they are a source of confusion. As must not be identical or of identical effect. Consequently, we still have a chance to sort this out at Third Reading, the Minister cannot argue that this amendment has perhaps the Government could enlighten us about the identical effect. If he does, he must withdraw the reasoning behind this dual oddity of drafting. amendment. 8.30 pm Lord Sassoon: I wonder whether it would be helpful Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I am very glad to at this stage to confirm that the government amendments hear that the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, is not objecting have been drafted in full recognition of what the to the amendment. Whether it is something new or Companion says. As I tried to explain in setting out the exactly the same in a different form does not matter so rationale for the amendment, I do not believe that it much, but I am glad that the amendment proposed has the same effect because it provides greater clarity will not be opposed by the noble Lord. 1749 Consumer Insurance Bill[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1750

While on my feet, perhaps I could say a word about may have seen the fourth, topical Question tomorrow the Law Commission and the part that it has played in morning, which touches on recent Law Commission bringing us to this point. The report was originally work on intestacy. As the Question refers to inheritance published in 2009. It followed three years of intensive tax, it is down to me, so I cannot escape Law Commission research and a great deal of evidence-taking, as one matters even this week. can see from the report. The commission then succeeded in reconciling the many divergent interests and produced, Amendment 1 agreed. as a result, a draft Bill, which is the Bill before us with only a few alterations. It is unquestionably the most important reform of the law of insurance since the Clause3:Reasonable care Marine Insurance Act 1906. The draftsman of that Act was Sir Alfred Chalmers, who is always referred to in this part of the law as the “legendary Chalmers” Amendment 2 because he was a brilliant draftsman. It seems to me Moved by Lord Sassoon that this Bill is a worthy successor to the Chalmers Act of 1906. We owe a great debt of gratitude to the Law 2: Clause 3, page 2, line 31, at end insert— Commission and, in particular, to David Hertzell, “( ) in the case of a failure to respond to the insurer’s who was in charge of the report. I hope that we may questions in connection with the renewal or variation of have many more Bills from that stable and I gather a consumer insurance contract, how clearly the insurer that there is already one in the offing, but as it relates communicated the importance of answering those questions (or the possible consequences of failing to do so),” to some rather obscure matters of trust law I assume that we shall not have the pleasure of the noble Lord, Amendment 2 agreed. Lord Sassoon, taking it through the House.

Lord Goodhart: My Lords, I would like to mention Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of one matter as the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, has Offenders Bill referred to the amendments that I put forward in Committee (1st Day) (Continued) Committee. As I said then, there was basically a pedantic reason for what I did. I thought what I did was slightly better but, quite frankly, it was not a 8.36 pm serious problem at all. As they were not automatically accepted in Committee, there is no point in raising the Amendment 3 matter again now. I am quite happy that it no longer appears. Moved by Lord Bach 3: Clause 1, page 2, line 1, leave out “may” and insert “must” Lord Borrie: My Lords, I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, and, therefore, share the Lord Bach: My Lords, this amendment, short though view of my noble friend Lord Eatwell today in raising it is, is important because it allows the Committee to again the duplication that there seems to be in Clause 5. question the Minister and to have a discussion around I do not think that anyone wants to press the point. In public legal education. That subject does not appear addition to the thank you to the Law Commission and much in the Bill and we thought it worth tabling a the usefulness of this Bill, to which the noble and probing amendment. If the Minister is not able to learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has just referred, I express answer all the questions today, I am sure that he will thanks for the excellence of the chairmanship of the be kind enough to write to Members of the Committee. noble and learned Lord. Perhaps I may go down memory lane for a moment or two. When I held the position that the Minister’s Lord Sassoon: My Lords, thank you for that short colleague, Mr Djanogly, now holds, part of my brief and focused discussion. On the specific point about covered public legal education. It was based on the the interlinkage of Clause 5(1) and Clause 5(3), I thesis that, of course, it is important for people to be think that my noble friend Lord Goodhart has answered able to access justice, but people will do so only when the question. Frankly, if the amendment had come they know that a civil wrong may be or has been done forward again, in the Christmas spirit I and the against them. The truth is probably that many millions Government might have accepted it. For goodness’ of our citizens do not know when they have some sake, I hope that it is now too late to table a handwritten claim—perhaps not big or major—because some civil amendment, but it was a fine bit of drafting either injustice has been done against them. They have no way. idea how the system works. I would rather stay with the noble and learned We very much want to keep the good things in this Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, in welcoming the system, which means that people with a legal claim importance of this small but targeted measure. I echo can get advice and, it is hoped, sort out the claim in my thanks to him as chairman of our committee that way. We think that legal aid plays an important under this special procedure, to the Law Commission, role in making that system work. However, when we and in particular to the commissioner, David Hertzell. live under the rule of law in a modern liberal democracy, I will not say that I wish I did not have to deal with what do we do when people do not have a clue about more Law Commission matters because your Lordships their rights and responsibilities in this legal sense? 1751 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1752

[LORD BACH] hardly tell the Committee that of course I shall not I was lucky enough to chair a pretty powerful press it; it is a probing amendment to elicit the committee of independent outsiders at the department Government’s views on the issue. I beg to move. on this issue. From outside the ministry, a committee group was led by the brother-in-law of the noble Lord, 8.45 pm Lord Brooke. He is a very distinguished former Lord Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I declare an Justice of Appeal who has done very good work in interest as president and founder of the Citizenship many fields, as the Minister is confirming. The committee Foundation, which is the principal educator about the included people such as Professor Hazel Genn; Richard law in schools in this country. We work with more than Susskind, the expert on legal IT and associated subjects half of all primary and secondary schools and try to who has advised Governments of all colours and give young people a sense of what it is to be a citizen of none; Michael Smith, a very distinguished solicitor; the modern, highly complex state. I commend the the chairman of the Legal Services Board; and Amanda noble Lord, Lord Bach, for bringing forward this Finlay, to name just a few. What we talked about and amendment and, indeed, I commend the Minister and tried to do something about, and what we as a the Government for an imaginative clause. I do not Government were prepared to put money into, was an think that a clause such as this has appeared in legislation attempt to make our legal system better understood before, and I wholly commend it. by ordinary citizens. I have only a couple of points to add to what the Public legal education is not a very attractive phrase, noble Lord, Lord Bach, said in moving his amendment. but we know what we mean by it. The question was The first is that we still live in a system where ignorantia where we would concentrate the limited resources that legis neminem excusat, which is all very well if you were devoted to such a concept. It seemed to me that know Latin and if you know a bit of law, but the there was one place where more work ought be done. average man or woman in the street, let alone the Some work had been done in schools, which was average pupil in any of our schools, is understandably, excellent, but more was needed. Also, sixth-form colleges predictably, woefully ignorant of this extraordinarily and colleges of further education were places where complicated society and state that we have given birth probably there was not much teaching or education to, principally, I have to say, in these Houses of Parliament. even in its broadest sense about a citizen’s legal rights I have mentioned before, and I have to mention again and obligations. We thought that this was an important in relation to this amendment and this clause, that we part of trying to establish a proper democracy that have a larger corpus of statute law than any democracy lives under the rule of law. in the world by far and, of course, we are supposed to I hope that other noble Lords will join in the debate be a common law system, so it is not as if it stands on and ask other, perhaps deeper questions. In the Bill its own. the requirement to provide legal education is discretionary I believe that one of the principal causes of civic rather than mandatory. Our probing amendment argues disaffection, if I can call it that, in this country, which that it should be mandatory; there should be an obligation I think is present and apparent on all sides—and I do on the Lord Chancellor. What mechanisms does the not refer just to the riots a few months ago, I refer also Minister’s right honourable friend intend to use to to the declining turnout at elections and the declining secure the provision of information about the law? inclination of people to stand for office in local government That is an important point. Online facilities, with the and so on—has everything to do with how people, not exception of YouGov, are fragmented and of varying even consciously, feel that somehow we carry on here quality. How does his right honourable friend intend in total disregard of them out there. They never get to work with other departments of state and external asked, and they never get told, unless there is an actors to ensure that citizens are informed of their election on, when all candidates are deeply keen to rights and duties when interacting with the state and engage with the public at large. We have to do something other services? about this. I am delighted to see that this clause is here. I shall be interested to hear what the Minister and I think that most noble Lords in Committee will other noble Lords say, but I would have thought that agree that this question could be well directed to the the importance of doing something about this is so Department for Work and Pensions, because I imagine pressing and so little understood that to have a requirement that we will talk quite a lot about mistakes that have here rather than a discretion would, on balance, be been made by that department. However, it applies desirable because there is no time to lose. also to the Department for Education, the National I shall give one small example of what a desert Health Service, private banks and of course local there is of accessible information about the law. It is authorities. Our concern is that the Government have that the Citizenship Foundation publishes the Young rather put on one side this sort of work, either for Citizen’s Passport, which is a passport to the law that financial reasons or because they do not believe that it will affect young citizens when they leave the school has much place in the Ministry of Justice’s responsibilities. gates or, indeed, before they leave them, to do with What is the Government’s attitude towards the housing, sex, contract and so on. The Citizenship future of public legal education under our system, and Foundation has sold 2 million copies of this booklet, to the goal of educating more of our citizens in the and that is not a small number. I suggest that that ways of knowing what their obligations and rights are, gives an indication of what a thirst there is for accessible, so that they do not walk around blind to the kinds of practical information about issues of law that are not rights and obligations that they have in a society such voluntary for anybody, but are compulsory for everybody. as ours? That is the point of the amendment. I need I wholeheartedly support this amendment. 1753 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1754

Lord Howarth of Newport: It was a very good idea to understand it. Finally, I therefore ask the Minister of my noble friend Lord Bach to table this amendment, to say something about the Government’s plans to and I do not want to introduce a jarring note because I support the Law Commission in pursuing its perennial am sure that we want to be consensual on this matter, task of bringing the law up to date and making it as on others, but I make the point that if more people relatively accessible and comprehensible for lay people. are going to have to represent themselves in tribunals and courts, they are going to need better opportunities Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I share with the to inform themselves about the law and it is not quite noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, the commendation clear how that is to happen, not least against the of the Government for putting in the extraordinarily background of reductions in funding from the Department interesting and, I think, very valuable subsection (3) in for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Ministry of Clause 1. It is excellent. The only thing that I do not Justice and local government for CABs, a matter we understand is why the word is “may” and not “must”. touched on earlier this afternoon. One starts by knowing that whatever happens in the The need is going to be acute, and I fear that it will latter part of this Bill, we are bound to have a situation be the greater because with the reductions in legal aid where the Government will have less money to put there is a risk that more of our people will feel alienated into legal aid. As the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, has from our society. They will no longer have confidence pointed out, consequently, more people will have to that the legal system will sustain all their legal rights deal with their own cases. when they find themselves in baffling situations of It is very important that there should be an obligation, conflict in which they feel that they may suffer injustice rather than just the opportunity, for the Lord Chancellor and that there is no one there to champion them. That or the Ministry of Justice to have some imaginative is dangerous and risks disaffection from the state and ideas to help people who are going to have to do their the justice system, and would develop cynicism about own cases. The word “must” should be in the Bill. I am the law. That is a cultural trend that we may need to somewhat surprised that the Government, having gone anticipate and the Government will need to think so far with this imaginative idea, did not think that it deeply about how they might mitigate and counter it. was necessary to make it compulsory. When the Minister replies to this debate, it would be helpful if he would tell the House a little about how Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, I support the the Government envisage general information about amendment and congratulate the Government on their the law and the legal system may be provided. It is not imaginative development in relation to this matter, but a duty on the Government, as expressed in the Bill, I too accept that it should be mandatory rather than but presumably they are contemplating this at least as discretionary. As the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of a possibility. I certainly think that they should do so. Newport, mentioned, there is the problem of the The noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, mentioned unrepresented defendant—the bane of every judge’s with legitimate pride the Citizenship Foundation. But life, particularly, if I may say so, that of the circuit we have learnt, I think this week, that citizenship is to judge. Often one found in a perhaps not uncomplicated be removed from the national curriculum. Once again, situation two unrepresented defendants. One would that underscores the importance of finding ways to have to spell out to them with bullet points essentially help a new generation of young people to be aware of what the civil law is. One would then have to explain their responsibilities and rights as citizens. It may well that if the claimant could on a balance of probability be that there are excellent members of the legal profession establish the case, he or she would succeed. If not, the who already visit schools and do pro bono work in other side, the defendant, would triumph. helping to advance the legal education of our young However, it is not really the unrepresented defendant, people. I hope that that is so. Again, I do not know complicated though the situation is, that this matter whether the Government have plans to encourage deals with, but the person who has not made a claim at more of such activity. all and will possibly never make a claim. I think it I think that we can all remember the days when the must have been around 10 years ago that I saw a law reports in the newspapers were very much fuller memorandum from the Law Society. It had conducted and the serious newspapers felt that it was their a comprehensive survey across the country and found responsibility to communicate the importance cases that around 30 per cent of straightforward industrial and decisions in the law. I may be wrong but I have the claims which had every prospect of success were, for impression that law reports in the broadsheet newspapers some reason or another, never pursued. That is the are now more perfunctory than they were. Of course, essential community that this piece of legislation is the tabloid treatment of legal issues is almost entirely aimed at. Therefore I commend the Government on sensational. There is a challenge as to how more their imagination, but to my mind there is no earthly responsible, more thoughtful, more informative and reason why it should not be mandatory rather than more effective education through the media can be discretionary. achieved. Information technology must offer new and better possibilities. I do not know whether the Ministry The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord of Justice is thinking of developing its own website or McNally): My Lords, it is warming to find a clause in of encouraging others to develop websites that may the Bill that has such general approval. Amendment 3 help to supply the present deficiency. seeks to amend Clause 1(3) to make the power of the If we had less law and clearer law, and if we had Lord Chancellor in relation to the provision of information more law codified in relatively succinct and simple a duty. This amendment is not appropriate. The duties terms, it would be easier for the people of this country of the Lord Chancellor under this Bill relate to the 1755 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1756

[LORD MCNALLY] Lord McNally: He will be very annoyed; that is provision of legal aid for those who qualify for it in what his father was called. It is one of the problems of accordance with Part 1. In contract, this subsection is being in the House of Lords that you remember their aimed in particular at enabling the Lord Chancellor to fathers. I am working with Francis Maude on our direct those ineligible for legal aid to other sources of transparency agenda. On a number of things that have advice. In the future this may include the provision of been, and will be, discussed in this Bill, some of my referral to paid-for advice through a telephone helpline noble friends talk as if the legal profession was set in service. The Government have decided not to implement aspic. I suspect that we are about to see an enormous the proposal at this stage, but intend to run a pilot change in the legal profession. As in any sector where scheme. The intention is that any individual who is there is change, it is unsettling, but it could also be seeking legally aided services but is ineligible for legal very enabling. I wonder whether alternative business aid advice could be signposted to other sources of structures, whereby accessing a lawyer might not be so advice that may be able to assist them in their problem. formidable as calling on the high-street solicitor but a However, to create a duty in this regard would be too matter of going to somewhere in your local Co-op, onerous and potentially very costly as a duty implies a might make a difference in terms of access. far greater requirement to provide an all encompassing Noble Lords underestimate just how willing people service. In a sense, the debate has covered demands for are to use the telephone and, increasingly, their e-mails that much broader service, but I still maintain that we and computers to get information. One has only to see cannot make this a bounden duty on the Lord Chancellor. the impact of eBay to appreciate how confidently However, it takes us in a direction that is interesting so people use that kind of technology for everyday use. far as this debate is concerned and, indeed, in the way The idea that people will get their advice via telephones our legal services are being developed. and computers is not so far fetched. Some of the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, and my noble friend Lord Phillips go far beyond The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked me what the the responsibilities of the Ministry of Justice and of department was doing. Through Directgov, the public the Bill about the rights and responsibilities of the can gain access to a range of information online about citizen in our society. However, I accept that it is the justice system, including legal aid. The introductory sensible to address the need for a better understanding page on legal aid on Directgov includes specific of how the justice system works and allow the citizen a information about accessing the community legal advice more fully understood access to it. helpline via the telephone or by completing a web-based online form to book a call back from the helpline in a 9pm language and at a time convenient to the caller. Plans In a way, the Government might learn a lot from are for e-mail advice and community legal advice, and the way in which television and e-commerce manage the Legal Services Commission is currently working to to connect with the citizen. We cannot get people to enhance the facilities for clients to access advice vote in general elections or local elections, but they are electronically from the community legal advice helpline very eager to vote on “The X Factor” and “Strictly via secure e-mail. Initial access to the CLA e-mail Come Dancing”. People can connect with a process. I advice service will be via the current “contact us, call pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Phillips and the me back” page on Directgov. Citizenship Foundation. It is important that we try to Online general services come in three forms: free get those connections with our society through education. web-page services provided by a variety of commercial Sometimes, we can become too bleak about the idea of and not-for-profit organisations such as National Debtline, a disaffected youth. Before I got this job, I was involved the Adviceguide from Citizens Advice, and consumer in the outreach programme, going round talking to credit counselling services. sixth-formers and often came away inspired by the commitment of young people. It is not such a bad I went to the Law Society awards ceremony earlier generation; we sometimes forget that. this year and it was interesting how many of the I was in the Chamber for the tail-end of the dinner-hour award-winning companies had online services. Some debate and was delighted to see a Law Commission of them went quite a way down in terms of advice recommendation carried through. I am the MoJ Minister before you pressed the button to start being charged. responsible for liaison with the Law Commission and Again, online services are an interesting development. pay tribute to its retiring head, Lord Justice Munby, These online and digital resources also explain court who has done an excellent job. However, I take the processes and procedures and how court hearings point made the other day by the noble Lord, Lord work, which is particularly important for litigants in Richard, that too many Law Commission reports end person. There are a number of links that demonstrate up gathering dust on the shelves. Whatever I can do on how comprehensive these resources are. They give my watch to push forward Law Commission reports, I advice on, for example, how to avoid repossession, will certainly do, particularly now that we have an what to do if you get into mortgage arrears and a accelerated system within the Lords for dealing with whole variety of other services. these matters. On the broader question that the noble Lords, Lord I am suggesting that part of what the noble Lord, Bach and Lord Howarth, referred to, I am the Minister Lord Bach, raised in this amendment, which I welcome for Digital and am working closely with my right because it allowed us to tease out some of these honourable friend Angus Maude. matters, is that a great part of our responsibilities under this section will be carried through by the new A noble Lord: Francis. technologies. We believe that the public, who in other 1757 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1758 parts of our life show an amazing capacity to use these Justice Act 1999, the provision of information is part new technologies, will find them an important part of of civil legal aid, but we have decided to take it out of understanding and having access to our legal system. the concept of legal aid because, although it appears We resist the amendment because we think that this in Section 4(2)(a) of the 1999 Act, the Legal Services should not be a duty, although it is certainly a direction Commission did not in practice treat it as something of travel for the MoJ. We regard the creation of a duty that it would normally fund. It was put in the Act, but at this stage to be too onerous and potentially very nothing happened, which is not unknown. costly as a duty implies a far greater requirement to provide an all encompassing service. I hope that the noble Lord will accept where our intentions lie and Lord Bach: We spent quite a lot of money on it, and where our direction of travel lies, and at this stage will planned to spend more. I think that that is as far as we agree to withdraw his amendment. can take it tonight, but if the noble Lord can supply the figures, if there are any, that would be helpful to the Committee. Lord Bach: I will withdraw the amendment in due I want to thank all noble Lords who have spoken in course, although I must say that having had the support this fairly short debate. I particularly want to praise that I have had around the House I am sorely tempted the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, for his role to have our first vote on this Bill tonight. But as I in the Citizenship Foundation. As my noble friend think that we are probably the only part of the whole Lord Howarth pointed out, it is wrong to congratulate of British society that is working at the moment—they him this week if citizenship is no longer to play the certainly are not at the other end—I will resist that role that it has done in the curriculum. I suspect that very strong temptation. the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, will have more to say on I am about to find out what Section 4(2)(a) of the that, perhaps even now. Access to Justice Act 1999 says. I believe that it says that the Government have to provide general information about the law—I will find out in a moment—so the Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I would simply praise with which the present Government have been like to make clear that the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, lauded during the course of this debate for having was right up to a point: the issue is not decided. There raised this issue for the first time ever may be a little is everything to play for. I say to anybody in this premature. At the same time, it is good to have it in the Chamber who thinks that it would be a bad step, Bill, but not good to see it as a “may” rather than a please get your pen out and write to Mr Gove. “must”. I shall start by saying to the Minister that we may well come back to this on Report, on the basis of what he said. 9.15 pm Section 4(1) of the Access to Justice Act says, under Lord Bach: As the noble Lord says, there is everything the heading “Community Legal Service”, that the to play for—rather like this Bill, I hope. Commission—which means the Legal Services At the risk of taking up too much time, I will just Commission—shall, quote from the speech of Lucy Scott-Moncrieff, the “establish, maintain and develop a service known as the Community vice-president of the Law Society this year, who I am Legal Service for the purpose of promoting the availability to sure will be a very distinguished president next year. individuals of services of the descriptions specified in subsection (2) She has had a great deal to do with the Law Society’s and, in particular, for securing (within the resources made available, reaction to and comments on this Bill. In a speech to and priorities set, in accordance with this Part) that individuals have access to services that effectively meet their needs”. the Northumbria School of Law earlier this month, which I have been lucky enough to see, she said the We met those last words earlier today, so I will not following, which I think is pertinent: mention them again. Subsection (2) goes on: “But access to the courts is only half the story … the story of “The descriptions of services referred to in subsection (1) are those who know that they have a problem, and perhaps know that … (a) the provision of general information about the law and there is a legal remedy, but have limited opportunity to use the legal system and the availability of legal services”, legal system to achieve justice. The other part of the story so the Government have done well to put it back into concerns people who may not realise that their problem has a this Bill, but it is a pity that it is voluntary and not legal remedy, who have a whole tangle of issues affecting their mandatory. lives which need to be unpicked to understand what solutions are possible - which may or may not be legal solutions. Very few I would like the noble Lord to tell us, either tonight people who receive legal advice proceed to litigate”. or in writing, what is in the budget for this work—what That point was made before the dinner break. Those is being spent on it this year and what is planned to be are wise words and there is a lot for the Government to spent on it next year. I hope that the answer is not gain by making sure people have a better understanding “Nil”. I rather fear it might be. of their legal rights. I will withdraw the amendment in a moment, but Lord McNally: I cannot give precise figures, but I will just say that this is an issue that may be small in am, as I said, the Minister responsible for digital terms of the length of amendment, but may be an development within the system and have been witnessing important issue that we should press the Government a lot of work going on, concerning how to make on when we come to Report. I seek leave of the websites understandable, accessible and people-friendly. Committee to withdraw the amendment. Since we are being swamped with advice, a little bit that has come to me says that, under the Access to Amendment 3 withdrawn. 1759 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1760

If the Government have stated their intention to Amendment 4 roll out this mandatory gateway as I have said, they Moved by Lord Bach have failed in our view to answer, particularly in 4: Clause 1, page 2, line 4, at end insert— another place, some fairly fundamental questions that “( ) The Lord Chancellor must ensure that a person eligible for need answering before Parliament should sanction legal aid advice is able to access it in a range of forms ab initio, such a departure from the present abundance of channels. including securing the provision of initial face-to-face advice.” Perhaps the Minister can illuminate us as to how the Government’s thinking has evolved on this issue, which Lord Bach: My Lords, we come on now to an I am sure they have spent a long time thinking about. important element of Part 1 of the Bill, which is the When an individual with learning difficulties, for mandatory gateway. Although I am sure the Committee example, communication and speech problems or mental knows this very well, I just remind noble Lords that if health problems tries to find help, will they be able to, the relevant area of law is out of scope, there will be first, find this new gateway service, secondly, properly no point in ringing up the mandatory gateway, because access and understand the service and, thirdly, gain the client will be told—no doubt very politely—that full utility from it? Will an individual who may be this is not in scope and that they will have to go severely upset or traumatised—a victim of domestic elsewhere if they want legal advice. When we talk violence, perhaps, or someone who is in extreme debt about the mandatory gateway, it is for the areas of law and feels rather ashamed about it—be willing to speak that remain in scope, such as parts of housing law, to a distant person without the comfort of direct, very small parts of debt, community care and parts of human interaction? Is it really the Government’s case education. We are talking about a limited field. It is no that they will all be happy to do that? answer to the areas of law that it is intended to take out of scope. How will someone who is utterly impecunious be I start by saying that my experience as a Minister able to make a lengthy telephone call, in which the was that the telephone advice centre is a fantastic caller refers to documents and must wait for interpreters channel for delivering advice. I am sure that the noble and answer detailed questions, in anything close to an Lord and his colleague the Legal Aid Minister have, as acceptable manner from, say, public telephone boxes, I have, visited telephone advice centres and been impressed. which still exist? For those with English as a foreign I certainly was in my turn. It can be convenient for language, there may be a particular problem. There those with busy lives, allowing them to access services might be an interpreter, too; three-way conversations at their convenience, and it can be—although it is not are hardly practicable. It will be difficult to consider always—a cheaper way to deliver advice than face to documents over the phone. What if the caller is perhaps face through a bricks-and-mortar centre. We also have semiliterate or, in fact, illiterate? They will obviously the community legal advice helpline, which is excellent. need personalised help—the kind of help that they get All of us, I am sure, would be glad to see the work of at the moment. What if there is a mass of documents, that organisation continue and expand. only one or two of which are particularly relevant? Visually, someone obviously sifts through these papers, However, there is a “but” here, and it is a big “but”. as they are using knowledge in a particular form that We on this side of the House do not think that the is relevant, but it could become a nightmare on the right way of dealing with the issue of getting advice telephone. lies in the Government’s plans to institute a mandatory telephone gateway. We will ask the Government exactly We think that those fears, which I am sure the what they intend, but this would seem to mean that Government have thought about, might prove an anyone seeking to use a service funded through the insurmountable hurdle to a number of those who, legal aid and advice scheme would have to first call a quite justifiably and within their rights, need legal hotline that would then direct them to the right service. advice or help. There are those with communication Our concerns are these. It is proposed to introduce problems or mental health issues, those with learning the mandatory single telephone gateway first for matters difficulties or literacy issues, and those who just cannot of debt, although comparatively few debt matters are express themselves in a particularly articulate way. left if the Bill goes through in its present form; for Those who would be unwilling to use a phone need the special educational needs—that part of education law immediacy of face-to-face contact and we fear that that the Government have had second thoughts about they may drop out. If the mandatory gateway is the and that is still now in scope; for discrimination—the only way through, will they actually get the advice that only part of employment law that remains; and for may solve the problem or get them their rights? community care cases, which, again, the Government There is an economic argument, too, because if quite rightly had second thoughts about. The Government telephone conversations become muddy and too long, have stated their intention to roll it out to other areas with both parties struggling to make themselves of law as soon as practicable. understood while sifting through masses of paper and It is hard to find much mention of the mandatory language difficulties, cost-efficiencies look much less gateway in the Bill. You have to look pretty hard, but likely. We think that there are ways of mitigating these in Clause 26 the Committee will see that there is issues, but at the moment there has been no proper mention of various ways in which advice can be given. debate about this issue. In a way, I am sorry that this It is otherwise something that we know about because debate is taking place in Committee at this time today, the Government have spoken a lot about it, but it is but it is still an opportunity for the Government to not something that appears directly in the Bill. Clause 26(2) express their views and for other noble Lords to say is actually the subsection that I am thinking of. whether or not they agree. On how this part of the Bill 1761 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1762 will actually work, we have little to guide us. We have work on the Welfare Reform Bill that the assessment Clause 26(2), but that gives us little insight into how it process is critical not just to asking the right questions— will work. I look forward to the debate on this issue in that is hard enough—but to getting the correct and the time available to us. useful information from the individual and then being I end, I hope not too pretentiously, with this comment: able to tie all that data together to get to an appropriate when the great writer EM Forster talked about only outcome. I receive a reasonable amount of correspondence connecting—“Only connect”was his model for living—he about face-to-face assessments, where the visual was talking not about connecting two telephone wires recognition of response and the nuances of conversation but about human interaction. The Government should are easier to pick up. That is why I am so concerned about not discount human interaction when they or lawyers the initial assessment being through a phone call. are in the business of giving advice on some of the The Minister mentioned the use of technology. I matters that we have been discussing in this Committee. am a huge fan of technology, and for lots of disabled I beg to move. people it can be used in an incredibly positive way. I do not think that any of us would be surprised at how Baroness Grey-Thompson: My Lords, I support many young people are using technology now or at the Amendment 4, which has been comprehensively moved stories in the media about toddlers who think that by the noble Lord, Lord Bach. I have a number of every TV screen is a touch screen and can flick through concerns about the gateway and how people may the channels—they are almost born knowing how to access it, specifically disabled people in the wider use this technology. The reality, though, is that older sense. While it makes a lot of sense to limit the access people and disabled people still struggle with different to the gateway to four areas initially, I feel that this forms of technology. For me it is not just about the could cause some difficulty for a number of people access to technology; that is just the first part. The who may be confused about signposting. We are talking second part is actually understanding how to signpost about areas of rights and obligations that are complex people to get to that information, and that is difficult and specialised and require a great deal of knowledge for a large number of people. of the system. That leads me straight on to staff training. The 9.30 pm Justice Minister in Committee in another place said Then there is the measurement of success of the that, new process. Success to some may be the reduction in “legal qualifications will not be a contractual requirement”.—[Official the number of cases being taken forward, but I believe Report, Commons, Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of that that is very short-sighted. Success should be about Offenders Bill Committee, 6/9/11; col. 294.] providing support to the right people with the minimum I seek further assurance that, if this is pursued, appropriate of disruption. This should not be about providing less training will be carried out. support to the most vulnerable who cannot, or do not While I am supportive in principle of simplifying know how to, fight for themselves any system—for disabled people especially, the idea of My final question relates to the timing of cutting down on travelling, which can be difficult, is implementation. I understand that the Minister may very positive—I immediately start thinking of the not be able to answer this question now, but I think number of people who might just find this method too that greater understanding of the timescales involved difficult to use. Does the Minister have any thoughts in setting up the system would help considerably in on the number or possibly the percentage of people enabling people to understand how it may unfold. who may struggle to use the proposed system? Whether There is a real danger that if this is not done correctly, they be people with a hearing difficulty who might not legal issues will go unrecognised. Therefore, cost savings have access to the right equipment if they are only could be made but for the wrong reasons. recently impaired, people whose impairment may make this type of communication difficult, people with language Baroness Prashar: My Lords, I rise to support this difficulties or people with learning disabilities, the amendment. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for group could be wide and varied. It is not easy to introducing it in such a comprehensive way. I also categorise those people who might find some difficulty thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for with this. Also, that presumes that the individual spelling out some of the broader implications of this knows and understands how their individual impairment matter. I will be brief as I want to underline just a affects them. What about those who do not, or those couple of points. One is that I fear that the single who need extra help making the initial phone call? mandatory telephone gateway will potentially reduce I have also been thinking about those people who access for some of the most vulnerable members of might find it difficult to take down an accurate record the community. I think that the Government’s intention of what has been discussed, perhaps even to follow the to deliver legal services through a single telephone line of questioning. I would like some more detail gateway and to further provide some casework by about how records are going to be kept and what telephone fails to recognise the difficulties this will information will be sent to the individual. If they do present to many of those attempting to access the not agree with the record of the conversation, how will system, particularly those with complex or distressing this be monitored? What is the follow-up? legal problems, as has been spelt out by the noble I would like to understand how the system will be Lord, Lord Bach. evaluated. Obviously, you need a trial system in operation As we have heard, telephone services are, of course, to iron out as many bugs as possible, even if this is the of value to many and their expansion is welcome. trial system for wider expansion. I know from my However, in my view they do not provide a universal 1763 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1764

[BARONESS PRASHAR] crucially, if the quality of the staff is sufficient to solution to those seeking initial legal advice. When a answer the initial inquiry in terms of their legal knowledge problem arises, many seek legal advice from providers and ability to prompt the facts to come out in conversation. that they have used before and know and trust. A In conclusion, a telephone gateway should have, as a strong relationship between adviser and client is central minimum, law graduates or experienced advice workers to clients providing vital information about their taking the initial calls, not unqualified generalists who circumstances. Remote mediums of seeking advice are may fail to pass on a call that should be passed on, or not conducive to building trust with an adviser. who may fail to diagnose a case because they think it is Research by the Legal Action Group has revealed out of scope, when actually something that is related that people in social classes D and E are the most to it is within scope. likely to experience a social welfare legal problem, are The telephone can never be the only means of most reliant on local advice centres for help and are accessing legal aid—nor should be electronic variations least likely to use telephone advice. It is also the case such as the internet and so on. Sometimes a face-to-face that those who make initial contact by phone like to initial interview can be a more effective and cheaper follow it up with face-to-face advice. As we heard from option than the telephone or the web. We should bear the noble Lord, Lord Bach, those with language difficulties it in mind that large numbers of households in the UK and urgent matters to address prefer personal contact, do not have access to broadband or the internet and and there may well be issues with literacy. There are are reliant upon public services such as public libraries real dangers that driving all advice provision to a and schools for access. Around a quarter of households telephone gateway will result in a substantial number simply do not have any access to that means of of those who currently seek face-to-face advice dropping communication. Normally, but not necessarily, very out and not receiving any legal aid at all. Their problems many members of those households will be poor and will be left to become more complex and expensive for unable to afford the relevant equipment. Expecting the state to resolve further down the line. This in the them to communicate across the web could be a significant long run will defeat the purpose of the legislation. problem. My second concern is the Bill’s implications for the Most contact for assessing an initial inquiry is sustainability of local legal services which are normally currently face-to-face. I have not followed why, if embedded in the community. One can see what will someone accesses, say, a CAB, law centre or public happen to those. With their local knowledge, these library, the initial face-to-face inquiry that has already organisations not only promote good practice but taken place cannot then be referred for another face-to-face campaign to improve services. We need more strategic discussion. Why should there be the additional cost of provision for legal advice services drawing on the best an extra loop in the system by generating a computer practice of local solutions. Throughout this afternoon record that can then be accessed by a range of other we have heard that access to justice is a constitutional people? principle. Initial legal advice provided in an appropriate I have concluded that we must have a range of way is a first step to accessing justice and can avert providers that can address the needs of all those likely long-drawn-out legal wrangles. In my view it is therefore to require help, some of whom may not speak English imperative that legal aid advice is provided in a range well. I noted recently research from the USA that of forms and is accessible to those who really need it. shows that one-fifth of people who receive telephone advice do not act upon it because they have not fully Lord Shipley: My Lords, I rise to speak to understood what the advice actually means. Amendments 114 and 116 and to all the principles There is a further issue around cost. Is it cheaper? that lie behind the amendments in this group. We are Figures have been quoted of savings of between discussing a mandatory telephone gateway and whether £50 million and £70 million. In my view, the cost could it can on its own deliver equal and effective access to prove to be much less than that because the current legal aid. Currently, signposting comes from a variety calculations compare the cost of face-to-face interviews of sources such as library information desks, council with the cost of a telephone call via a community customer services, GP surgeries, councillors’ and MPs’ advice line, but they are not directly comparable because surgeries, voluntary and public organisations, charities those who use the latter are a self-selecting group who and so on. They all currently direct people to CAB, are content and confident with using a telephone. law centres and voluntary organisations such as Shelter. We need to look at a whole range of issues more That system works. In the main, the signposting is of deeply. I hope that my noble friend will be willing to high quality and gets people who need help to the undertake further work on the advisability of a single right advice from the most appropriate place. mandatory channel; that further work will be done on There is a great danger in a call-centre approach. I the relative costs involved; and that the proposal’s hope that that is not what the Government intend, but impact on equality and access to justice will be looked a call-centre approach is dependent upon speed and at very closely. There are real dangers that some of low costs as its main drivers. The telephone can be those most in need of help will fail to secure it through very good, but in this case it would be very good only a mandatory telephone gateway. if: first, individuals can communicate via the telephone— for example, there could be significant levels of Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, my noble documentation to quote from, and there is therefore a friend Lord Bach and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey- strong probability of complexity in an inquiry; secondly, Thompson, have identified, imaginatively and sensitively, if individuals have the confidence to clearly prepare extensive groups of people for whom a mandatory what they need to say and then say it; and thirdly and telephone gateway would be entirely inappropriate. 1765 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1766

I hope that the Minister will reflect carefully on the It would not make much sense if people who had gone apprehensions expressed this evening. The noble Baroness, through those routes were then required thereafter to Lady Prashar, and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, both access a mandatory telephone gateway. Otherwise, we suggested that it would be a false economy to skimp will run into the ludicrous situation where people sit in on the cost of the initial advice and assistance. We those establishments with their MPs and a call is made could end up, perversely, having to spend a lot more to the telephone gateway during the constituency surgery. because people did not receive the advice and assistance That would of course be an absurdity. Perhaps the that they needed, it was not comprehensible to them, it Minister would explain to the Committee what is failed to match what was appropriate for them or proposed in such circumstances, the ones that I have because they lacked the encouragement to explain described being but examples. themselves fully, so their cases were not taken further through the appropriate channels and their personal 9.45 pm predicament deteriorated. We must take all those worries seriously. Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I want to make The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, touched one point and one point only but I hope to do so on the question of training, and the noble Lord, Lord forcibly. If it is mandatory for those seeking assistance Shipley, talked about the need for the people who are to go through a telephone gateway, we will cast adrift to provide the service to be of high calibre. Those a significant minority of our fellow citizens who will things are important. It would be helpful if the Minister never use a telephone gateway for the sorts of problems would say more about what the Government envisage with which they are confronted. It is a small but by way of training programmes and the level and significant group, and it would be an irony if the most standard of personnel who will be recruited to provide needy people in our society were the very ones who the service. We are in a familiar dilemma as we examine were, in effect, cut off from access to legal help when the legislation. It is perfunctorily articulated in extremely they most needed it. important aspects. We asked to take the Government I say this from a considerable amount of personal on trust. We are willing to take the Government on experience working for the Samaritans and for one of trust to the extent that they will explain themselves to the London law centres, and from my life as a young us and we know what we are being asked to trust. I solicitor in a general practice and, indeed, as the hope that the Minister will be able to be helpful to the director of the first national legal telephone helpline. I Committee on those points. emphasise to the Minister that the problem really is I have two quick questions to put to the Minister. not at all obvious. It is a commonplace that the Will this be a freephone service? Secondly, does he younger generation today is phenomenally computer envisage that there will be a network of telephones literate and so on, but there is still a small group of that people will be able to use when they make these people who are totally lacking in self-confidence and calls? It could be a very sensitive matter for people in an ability to analyse their own problems, and they explaining themselves to someone at the other side of are fearful of being made fools of on a telephone. I the telephone gateway about issues concerning family could go on describing this group. I quite accept that breakdown, debt and so forth. It is not just that they for the majority of people what is currently proposed are painful topics but that it could be positively hazardous is fine but, as my noble friend Lord Shipley and others for people not to be able to make those telephone calls have said, we must, whatever else we do, have a second in circumstances of privacy where they can be confident route into legal help which does not cut off that most that they will not be overheard or interrupted. We needy group. need to know a lot more detail about how the Minister anticipates that the system will be made to work in Lord McNally: I thank noble Lords for their comments. practice. A number of points have been raised. The helpline is an 0845 number. However, callers can text or call to Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, I raise just one request a call back at minimum cost, and the call back or two points about the notion of a compulsory will be entirely free. There is also an online form which telephone gateway. The first relates to legal professional can be sent to the helpline at no cost. The helpline is a privilege. Can my noble friend confirm that all confidential service and the legal advice given will be communication in the telephone gateways are and will protected by legal professional privilege. continue to be covered by legal professional privilege, I hear what my noble friend Lord Phillips says, so that we can avoid the risk of cases eventually although it is ironic that one of the experiences that he arriving in court and initial conversations with telephone quotes is that of the Samaritans, whose service is gateways being used for the purposes of cross-examination based on the telephone. I hear that there will be this when the person accessing the telephone gateway may needy section of society but I suggest that the range of well have been lacking in confidence and have stated services mentioned by my noble friend Lord Shipley their case in an inaccurate way? will capture these people. There are also health visitors The second matter I wanted to raise is about the and local councillors. If there are such people in our group of people—and there are many of them—who society and if they are disabled in this way in the contact what I will call informed lay services. That broader sense of that word, they will get advice. I would include people going to citizens advice bureaux, really think that it is taking the argument too far to well informed councillors, Members of the Welsh say that there must be a system that can identify the Assembly in their constituency surgeries and, of course, individual who is so afraid of the modern world that Members of Parliament in their constituency surgeries. he will not engage. No system on earth can cover that. 1767 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1768

[LORD MCNALLY] and would affect the introduction of the mandatory I am not being flippant about what we are addressing single gateway as set out in the Government’s consultation now but, when we were involved with broadcasting response on legal aid reform. It is essential that the issues, noble Lords would make a great fuss about Government should seek to provide legal aid services some mythical pensioner, who lived in the West Riding, in a cost-effective manner that meets the needs of their had a nine-inch Bush television and would ask whether clients. However, this amendment seeks to fetter the she would be able to get the television stations when Government’s flexibility to do so by placing the specific we switched to 625 lines from 405. We can always take duty on the Lord Chancellor under Clause 1 that for things to the extreme, but the people who were mentioned those people eligible for legal aid, those legal aid by my noble friend Lord Phillips and others are those services must be available in a range of forms and that who will be given other sources of advice to enable this must include face-to-face advice. This would preclude them to go through the gateway. the possibility of providing, subject to exceptions, I will deal with the issues raised by the noble legal aid services in certain areas of law only through Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. She asked how records specialist telephone advice services. This amendment will be kept. Recordings and case records will be would also conflict with the provisions in Clause 26(1) retained for six years after the contract with the provider and (2), which provide that the Lord Chancellor’s duty has expired. If a caller calls on more than one occasion, at Clause 1 does not, where an individual qualifies for the operator will hold on to the information held. She legal aid, include a duty to secure that services are asked whether an advocate can ring on behalf of a made available by the means selected by the individual. client. All clients will be assessed on a case-by-case The Lord Chancellor may discharge that duty by basis and a caller identified as being unable to give arranging for services to be provided by telephone or instructions, or to act on advice given, will be referred by other electronic means. to a face-to-face advice service and there will be provision The Government explained in their consultation for a third party to call a gateway on a client’s behalf. response their intention to implement a mandatory We have taken on board the issues of people with single gateway, based on the community legal advice learning difficulties or mental health issues. Where a helpline, initially in a restricted number of areas of client who lacks capacity contacts the specialist telephone law. Clients in these areas would generally be required advice service, or the adviser believes that they may to apply for legal aid over the telephone or other lack capacity, the advice provider will need to follow electronic means, and would then, if they qualify for relevant professional standards. However, the specialist legal aid, be offered legal aid advice only over the advice service will be able to discuss the details of the telephone or other electronic means. The areas of law case with an authorised third party. concerned are debt, in so far it remains in scope; community care; discrimination—in other words, claims The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised the question relating to a contravention of the Equality Act 2010—and of whether the operating service may not correctly special educational needs. There would be an exception diagnose a problem. Only where the operator service is to using the mandatory single gateway to the four fully satisfied that it has correctly diagnosed that a areas of law covered by the gateway. These would be case is out of scope will they make a decision. If there emergency cases; instances where the client had previously is any doubt, they will refer the matter to a legally been assessed by the mandatory single gateway as trained specialist. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, asked requiring advice face-to-face within the last 12 months how people will know how to ring the helpline. We will and is seeking further help to resolve link problems be developing a communication strategy between now from the same face-to-face provider; and clients who and 2013 when it will come online. That was also a are in detention, including prison, a detention centre question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey- or a secure hospital, and children defined as those Thompson. That information about the line will be under the age of 18. appropriate and specifically targeted to routes that individuals currently use to find out information. In the legal aid consultation response, we also explained that where clients access the community legal advice Both the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and the noble helplines through the mandatory single gateway in Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, asked whether helpline those four areas of law, we expect that those who operators will be legally qualified. The answer is no, qualify for legal aid would normally be transferred to because they do not offer callers legal advice. They are the community legal advice specialist telephone adviser. fully trained to identify key words from a client’s However, both gateway call operators and specialist description of a problem to ensure an accurate diagnosis. advisers will assess the specific needs of all callers on a That means that the client can then be passed on to case-by-case basis. This assessment will be based on the appropriate legally trained adviser who is able to the personal circumstances of the client and the nature give advice on the relevant point of law. of the issue about which they are seeking legal assistance. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the noble Baroness, Generally speaking, the key consideration is whether Lady Grey-Thompson, asked about qualifications. the individual client or someone on their behalf will Gateway operators are fully trained. Telephone advice be able to give instructions and act on the advice specialists are required to have the same level of given. But where it becomes clear that legal representation qualification as their face-to-face equivalents. will be necessary, clients will be given the option to see I am well aware from the debate that noble Lords a face-to-face provider. have concerns about the mandatory single gateway Where it is determined that face-to-face advice will and the Government are seeking to give assurances be more appropriate for the caller, they will, where about those concerns. Amendment 4 relates to Clause 1 possible, be given a choice of face-to-face advice provider 1769 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[20 DECEMBER 2011] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1770 either from a list of suitable advice providers or a announcing yet another £20 million—to support the specific suitable provider known to the client. The not-for-profit sector in the short term. The fund will Government do not believe that there will be any provide immediate support to not-for-profit advice significant delay to an individual receiving the help service providers in England to deliver essential debt, they need or any increased bureaucracy caused by the welfare benefit, employment and housing advice services. introduction of a gateway. In some cases—for example, The details of the fund were announced on 21 November where a client does not know which provider will be by my honourable friend Nick Hurd MP, the Minister able to help—we believe that telephone advice is likely for Civil Society. to be quicker even where a referral is to a face-to-face Alongside the advice services fund, the Cabinet provider. The Government believe that the diagnostic Office is conducting a review of local advice provision and routing service offered by the gateway will be of that will look at the funding environment for these value to many. services, the likely levels of demand and how the Amendments 114 and 116 would require that where Government can play a positive role. The review will legal aid services are provided by telephone or other conclude early next year. My officials are working electronic means, those services should be provided closely with colleagues across government to support solely by a not-for-profit sector. I recognise and value this important work. I hope that this will reassure the the important role that not-for-profit organisations House that my colleagues and I are united in our play in delivering advice at the local level. I also efforts to support the not-for profit sector while it recognise the concerns of many noble Lords about adapts to the difficult changes in the funding landscape. not-for-profit organisations and the future provision Amendment 115 would place a requirement on the of advice services. However, seeking to create a type of Lord Chancellor to ensure that legal aid services are monopoly for not-for-profit organisations is not the provided by telephone or other electronic means only way to address this. if he is satisfied that if those using the service have a As noble Lords will be aware, it would not be disability, mental illness or other impairment, they possible for the Government to commit to awarding will not be disadvantaged by receiving the services in contracts for telephone services solely to a specific this manner. The Equality Act 2010 contains, among sector, as any services commissioned by public bodies other things, a duty to make reasonable adjustments are subject to EU procurement rules. However, not-for- where a disabled person is placed at a substantial profit and charitable organisations can and already do disadvantage in comparison with a non-disabled person. bid for contracts to provide specialist telephone advice As I said earlier, the Government explained in their under the existing community legal advice helpline. At consultation response that the current telephone advice present, six of the 15 contracts for specialist telephone provision has many measures in place to assist all advice through the helpline are held by not-for-profit callers, including disabled people, to access services. or charitable organisations. Future contracts will continue Those measures will continue for future advice provision. to provide opportunities for such organisations to bid My officials are currently working with a range of to deliver specialist telephone advice services through stakeholders, including representatives from disability the helpline and the telephone gateway. Of course, groups such as Shaw Trust, Mencap, the British Dyslexia such organisations are also able to bid for the telephone Association, the Adult Dyslexia Organisation and TAG— operator contract for the helpline. The amendments formerly the Telecommunications Action Group—as would also mean that the criminal legal aid telephone part of the Government’s commitment in their advice service, CDS Direct, could be provided only by consultation response to identify any additional ways the not-for-profit sector. Not-for-profit organisations to provide reasonable adjustments for callers with do not currently provide telephone criminal legal aid specific needs. The needs of people with disabilities, advice and I am not aware that they wish, or are mental illness and other impairments have been discussed. currently equipped, to do so. Further work looking at the outcomes of those initial Related to general concerns about the future provision discussions is taking place. of face-to-face advice services is the decision to limit The Government aim to ensure that effective systems the initial scope of the telephone gateway to four areas are put in place so that callers’ needs and their ability of law, which will have a more limited impact when to access legal advice over the telephone are accurately compared with the original proposal set out in the and promptly assessed, enabling them to be directed consultation paper. The Government are confident to the most appropriate source of assistance for their that implementing the telephone gateway in limited particular circumstances. I met a delegation, which areas of law will enable better monitoring of the included the noble Lords, Lord Rix and Lord Wigley, impact on clients and providers in order to inform to discuss the concerns of people with learning difficulties. future decisions about any further expansion of the gateway. The current community legal advice helpline is a well used route to access civil legal advice. It offers a On future civil legal aid advice provision more high-quality service and works well. In 2010-11, generally, the Government are committed to ensuring approximately—my brief says “approximately” and that people continue to have access to good quality, then says “537,146”. I am not sure that I would free advice in their communities. This is why the describe that as “approximately”, but that was the Government have launched the advice services fund number of calls that were made to the community and a review of free advice services. They have set legal advice operator service, which offered—another aside £20 million—I say to the noble Lord, Lord “approximate”figure—124,819 specialist acts of assistance. Beecham, that it is the same £20 million; I am not The quality standards required of community legal 1771 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1772

[LORD MCNALLY] Lord McNally: I will write to the noble Lord to advice specialist advice providers are higher than for clarify that. If there is a problem of cost, a person will the equivalent face-to-face services. We have no plans be able to make a short call or send an e-mail asking to change these requirements. for a call back. I will have to seek advice on whether Recent results from the latest automated survey the 0845 number is a free number. showed that an impressive 96 per cent of respondents found the operator service helpful, with 97 per cent of Lord Bach: I am not concerned about that tonight, respondents saying that they would recommend the but the position is not clear yet and we need to be service to a friend. The 2010 survey of clients advised clear. The real problem is the mandatory nature of this by telephone showed that 90 per cent of the respondents provision, which is what worries us. It is not the fact found the advice provided helpful. that there will be telephone advice. Such advice is Amendment 117 refers to advice in custody, but it excellent. When the Minister gently chides some of his has not been moved this evening. I think we will be noble friends for taking the argument too far, surely returning to Section 12 at another time, and I will the Government are taking it too far by insisting on a probably deal with it at that time. mandatory gateway.Flexibility is everything in something like that. I hope that that information, including those approximate figures on which I will try to get more The Minister almost gave the game away when he detail for Report, helps, particularly in the various said that someone who was unable to make a telephone issues where we are still in dialogue about the concerns call would somehow get advice from someone. No, that have been expressed which have been raised again they will not necessarily. Perhaps they will but they in this debate. I hope that, as he indicated earlier, the may not. Nor will they get legal advice, which they noble Lord, Lord Bach, will withdraw his amendment. probably need, from anyone. The Government cannot be as vague about it as they currently appear to be. Lord Bach: I will certainly withdraw my amendment, What worries us is that the present system does not and I thank the Minister for his very full reply. Speaking work badly. I wish to refer to two points made in the for myself, I have to say that I remain entirely dissatisfied debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, said that by his speech about this very important part of the these not-for-profit organisations and solicitors are Bill. I will be as quick as I possibly can be because of embedded in the community. They are part of our way the time. of life. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has a great deal of experience and knowledge in this field. He talked I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson about the right advice from the right place. That is the and Lady Prashar, for signing the amendment in the British way of doing this and it is a system that works name of my noble friend Lord Beecham and myself pretty well. There is flexibility and various ways in and for their excellent speeches, and I thank all other which a person can get advice. It is not that a person noble Lords who spoke—all of them against the proposal has a choice between all sorts of ways of getting for the mandatory gateway. advice—the best way for them will be obvious. But to A number of important issues came out, which I restrict it to a mandatory gateway sounds almost too think the Government really should pay careful attention dirigiste for this country. We should be much more to. The remark made by the noble Baroness, Lady flexible, which is much more in our political tradition. Grey-Thompson, that legal issues will remain unrecognised What makes it even better is that it works. The great is a crucial point. The comment made by the noble danger is that in their attempt to change everything, Baroness, Lady Prashar, about reducing access to some the Government will change this for much the worse. of the most vulnerable is also crucial. Of course, tonight I will withdraw the amendment but As far as the freephone service is concerned, I do the noble Lord knows that we will certainly return to not know whether the Minister is able to give an this issue. answer to the question asked by my noble friend Lord Howarth. We understand that the current cost of the Amendment 4 withdrawn. community legal advice helpline is 4p per minute, but I do not know what the intention is for the future. House resumed. Perhaps the Minister can tell us now or write about that when he has had the chance to ask. House adjourned at 10.13 pm. WS 185 Written Statements[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Statements WS 186

We have delivered a scheme to provide scholarships Written Statements to bereaved service children—to date a total of Tuesday 20 December 2011 22 further education and 61 higher education scholarships have been awarded fors academic years 2010-11 and 2011-12; We have delivered more help for those leaving the Armed Forces: Interim Covenant service to go on to higher/further education—not Annual Report least through payment of tuition fees, which has Statement been extended to the spouses or partners taking up the entitlement because of bereavement or extreme injury of a discharged service person; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry We have introduced the pupil premium for the of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable children of those currently serving (£200 per child, friend the Secretary of State for Defence (Philip rising to £250 next year), amounting to £9 million Hammond) has made the following Written Ministerial for 2011-12. In addition, we have made available Statement. £3 million per year for state schools with service children, including those of reservists. Since the Our Armed Forces make great sacrifices on the launch of this fund, 139 bids from schools have nation’s behalf, not only on operations overseas, but in been approved, amounting to £2.9 million for this their service in the UK too. This Government recognise financial year; that the nation in turn has a responsibility properly to support them and their families. That is why the We have announced a community covenant scheme Armed Forces Act 2011 recognises the Armed Forces supported by a £30 million community covenant covenant in law for the first time, and creates an fund. Over 20 councils have signed a covenant with obligation on the Defence Secretary to publish an the Armed Forces community in their areas, with annual Armed Forces covenant report. more planned in the coming months. More than £750,000 has already been released to support local The Government are today publishing an interim projects, with further bidding rounds taking place Armed Forces covenant annual report, in advance of quarterly; the statutory requirement created by the Act. It has We have doubled council tax relief for those on been compiled in consultation with the Covenant eligible operations overseas; Reference Group, which brings together officials from across Government with service charities and family We are working with credit reference agencies to federations. The interim report covers the full scope of ensure service people are not disadvantaged by the Armed Forces covenant, published on 16 May mobility requirements in accessing credit. 2011, and provides a baseline for future statutory Recognising the key role played by the Covenant reports. Reference Group, the Government have committed On 16 May 2011 we also published The Armed themselves to publishing, alongside the annual report, Forces Covenant: Today and Tomorrow, copies of which any observations which the external members of the are available in the Library of the House. This document group might have on it. The external members have outlines the commitments made by the Government in offered their observations on this interim report, and support of the covenant. In contrast, today’s interim they are reproduced within it. They have drawn attention report is focused on recording progress and a broad not only to the progress which has been made, but also survey of areas of interest and concern. These include to how much remains to be done. The Government housing, education, healthcare and the operation of welcome their constructive input and will take careful inquests, as the statutory Armed Forces covenant note of the points made. We are extremely grateful to report will from next year. It also considers whether them for their continued engagement and assistance, our service men and women are disadvantaged in their as we jointly take work forward on the Armed Forces ability to access public services, or whether in any covenant. areas there is a case that special treatment is justified, The Armed Forces covenant is a matter for the and again the statutory report will do the same. whole of Government, and sustained progress requires Overall the report makes clear that while more can both close collaboration across Whitehall and clear and will be done, much has been achieved since the ministerial leadership. My right honourable friends, coalition programme for government was published: the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister, have therefore agreed to establish a new ministerial committee, We have doubled the tax-free operational allowance led by the Minister for Government Policy, the right so that those serving on eligible operations now honourable Member for West Dorset, (Oliver Letwin) receive a lump sum of just over £5,000 for a six-month to oversee this work and ensure that momentum is tour; maintained. The Prime Minister will chair the first We have improved rest and recuperation leave for meeting of this new committee early next year. This those on operations; new forum will work closely with the Covenant Reference We have endorsed the proposals by my honourable Group, whose key roles including monitoring progress friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Andrew and holding the Government to account will be Murrison) for making improvements in mental health unchanged. I will chair an annual joint meeting between care provision, the majority of which have been the two bodies to ensure that the Covenant Reference implemented fully, and the provision of enhanced Group has the opportunity to engage with Ministers prosthetic services for military amputees; directly. WS 187 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 188

ECOFIN with joint and several guarantees; or partial substitution Statement of national issuance with several but not joint guarantees. The Commission noted that stability bonds would create a deepening of economic and monetary union The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord and this would need to be accompanied by parallel Sassoon): My right honourable friend the Chancellor measures to strengthen economic governance. Some of the Exchequer (George Osborne) has today made options would also require treaty change. The Commission the following Written Ministerial Statement. said that it would prepare further steps on euro area economic governance by the end of 2011. The Economic and Financial Affairs Council was held in Brussels on 30 November 2011. The following There was no substantive debate, particularly not items were discussed: on stability bonds, but a number of Member States expressed support for the general principle of further Breakfast: debrief from Eurogroup meeting of 29 November strengthening euro area economic governance. and discussion of the economic situation Recommendation on a nomination to the executive Council heard that Eurogroup had agreed the sixth board of the European Central Bank tranche of funding for Greece under its assistance package. It also received an update on the options for This was added to the agenda as a result of discussion leveraging the European Financial Stability Facility. over breakfast. Council adopted a recommendation Council then discussed bank capital and funding, on the nomination of Benoît Coeuré of France, to following up on the European Council of 26 October, replace Lorenzo Bini Smaghi of Italy, who has announced and agreed that capital requirements needed to be met his resignation. without deleveraging. I made it clear that if required, Economic and financial impact of EU legislation funding schemes needed to be at national level. This Council discussed Conclusions addressing the need was agreed. I also called for early discussion of progress for impact assessments of proposed EU legislation, on the Capital Requirements Directive. and for all such legislation to take account of the need Follow-up to the G20 Summit of 3-4 November in to ensure sustainable public finances and create jobs Cannes and growth. The UK intervened to support the France provided a debrief of the Summit. They Conclusions. After much discussion Conclusions were confirmed that the major topic of discussion had been agreed with a number of amendments. the euro area crisis and that the EU had been urged to Court of Auditors’ 2010 Report on the EU Accounts agree a comprehensive approach to the crisis. They The President of the Court of Auditors presented also noted that the Summit had discussed ways of their report. In the auditors’ view, the Budget presents increasing IMF resources. fairly the position and cashflow of the EU, although Annual Growth Survey (AGS) there remains scope for improvement. Control systems The Commission presented its second Annual Growth are only partially effective and overall there has been Survey and set out five key priorities: fiscal consolidation an increase in the level of errors. The Commission (whilst taking account of the need for growth and for highlighted that the report showed progress had been differentiation between Member States); restoring normal made. The UK, the Netherlands and Sweden all expressed lending conditions, with particular attention to SMEs; concern at the increased error rate. The Presidency completing the single market; reforms to modernise noted the report, which will be further considered by labour resources (in particular ensuring wages better Council in February 2012, when Ministers will vote on reflect productivity, improving labour mobility, and discharge of the 2010 accounts. addressing youth unemployment); and efficient public EU Statistics administration. Council adopted Conclusions welcoming the report Second economic governance package of the European Statistical Governance Advisory Board The Commission presented two legislative proposals and inviting the Commission to put forward proposals and a discussion paper. The first of the legislative regarding the professional independence of national proposals relates to strengthening budgetary surveillance statistical authorities and Eurostat. within the euro area, particularly for Member States Code of Conduct (business taxation) in excessive deficit. It would require euro area Member This item was withdrawn from the agenda by the States to submit their draft national budgets to the Presidency and is now expected to be considered by Council and the Commission by 15 October of the Council in January 2012. preceding year for assessment. The second proposal is a draft regulation on the surveillance of euro area Member States experiencing severe financial disturbance. It set out a process of more comprehensive monitoring Education: Early Years Foundation Stage for Member States receiving a programme of financial Statement assistance from EU and IMF-backed funds. Such monitoring could also be applied to Member States not receiving assistance but considered to be at risk. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for The Commission discussion paper proposed three Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My honourable friend options for stability bonds: full substitution of national the Minister of State for Children and Families, issuance by stability bonds with joint and several Department for Education (Sarah Teather) has today guarantees; partial substitution of national issuance made the following Statement. WS 189 Written Statements[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Statements WS 190

I am today publishing the government response to We will remove the ministerial power to direct the consultation on the early years foundation stage disposal of property under the Local Government, (EYFS). Planning and Land Act 1980, since it will not be The consultation has shown broad support for needed by the CRT; the Government’s proposals for a reformed EYFS, We will not extend the provisions in the Transport implementing the recommendations of Dame Clare Acts 1962 and 1968 on employment to the CRT, on Tickell’s independent review. The reforms will reduce the basis that they have largely been replaced by paperwork and bureaucracy for professionals; focus more recent employment legislation; attention on the areas most essential for children’s We will amend sections 104 and 105 of the Transport healthy development; support early intervention with Act 1968 to give the CRT an enhanced “statutory children who face difficulties; and secure a stronger proposer” role in relation to ministerial orders on partnership with parents. classification and maintenance of its waterways; The government response confirms our plans, including We will amend Section 27 of the Transport Act 1962 simplified assessment at age 5 and a new progress to restrict the power of direction to circumstances check for children aged 24 to 36 months, focused on in the interests of national defence; the most important areas of children’s development. We will not apply the House of Commons We also set out how we propose to refine the early Disqualification Act 1975; Scottish Parliament learning goals (in particular literacy and maths), and (Disqualification) Order 2010; National Assembly minor changes to the guidance on assessment at age 5 for Wales (Disqualification) Order 2010 or the Northern to ensure it is relevant to all children including those Ireland Assembly Disqualification Act 1975 to the with special educational needs and disabilities. trustees of the CRT, because this would not be I am launching an additional one-month consultation appropriate for trustees of a charitable body. on the EYFS early learning goals and educational In addition, the Government intend, also subject to programmes, and the relevant statutory instrument. parliamentary approval, to apply the Freedom of This further consultation is required by the Childcare Information Act (FOIA) to the CRT, in respect of all Act 2006. those statutory functions that the CRT will inherit The new early years framework is an important from BW through the proposed transfer order. This element in our plans to ensure families in the foundation limited application of the FOIA will have the effect of years are supported, to give children the best possible excluding from the provisions of the Act those broader start in life, and to ensure that all children have the charitable functions carried out by the CRT. It will knowledge and skills that provide the right foundation also exclude bodies that merge with the CRT, unless for their future progress through school and life. The the FOIA already applies or is made to apply to them revised EYFS statutory framework (and the associated at the point of merger. regulations) will be published in spring, to enable Recognising that, as concerns administrative burdens, schools and other providers to prepare for implementation this will initially put CRT in a potentially disadvantageous of the new EYFS from September 2012. position with regard to other statutory navigation I have placed a copy of the government response in authorities, the Government will, within two years, the Libraries of both Houses. launch a procedure, under Section 5 of the FOIA, to consider extending the provisions of the Act to other statutory navigation authorities, with the intention of Environment: Canal and River Trust creating a level playing field. Statement In these circumstances, the Environmental Information Regulations (EIRs) may be considered to apply to the CRT to the extent that the CRT is carrying out “functions The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, of public administration”. Ultimately, this will be a Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs question for the courts to decide. In the mean time, I (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): My honourable friend the have asked the CRT trustees to make a public commitment Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Natural Environment to adopt a transparency policy that closely follows the and Fisheries (Richard Benyon) has today made the provisions of the EIRs; we are seeking to capture this following Statement. commitment in the funding agreement being negotiated On 12 September 2011, I launched a supplementary between Defra and the CRT trustees. consultation on the detail of the order to transfer the The Government’s response also includes, by functions of British Waterways (BW) in England and agreement, the Scottish Government’s response to the Wales to a new waterways charity, the Canal & River Scottish issues raised in the consultation. Trust (CRT). The consultation closed on 24 October 2011. Today, I am announcing the publication of the EU: Foreign Affairs Council Trade Session Government’s response to this consultation, which is available at http://www.defra.gov.uk/consult/closed/ Statement The consultation asked for views on the detail of certain aspects of the transfer order. The majority of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, responses to the consultation supported the overall Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness direction of the Government’s proposals, and, subject Wilcox): My honourable friend the Minister for to obtaining parliamentary approval in due course, Employment Relations, Consumer and Postal Affairs the Government intend to proceed as follows: (Edward Davey) has today made the following statement. WS 191 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 192

I represented the UK at the trade session of the different perspectives”, and that it was “unlikely that above Foreign Affairs Council in Geneva, Switzerland, all elements could be concluded simultaneously in the on 14 December. near future.”Despite this, Ministers remained committed Trade Ministers met immediately before the Eighth to further work, to the need “to more fully explore World Trade Organisation (WTO) Ministerial Conference different negotiating approaches”, and to advancing to take a number of decisions related to the conference, negotiations to allow “Members to reach provisional notably the accessions of Russia and Samoa to the or definitive agreements based on consensus earlier WTO and the Least Developed Countries Services than the full conclusion of the single undertaking” (ie Waiver, as well as to approve the mandates for Deep “early harvests”). Finally, the Conference agreed to and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreements (DCFTAs) “intensify their efforts to look into ways that may with Egypt, Jordan, Morocco and Tunisia. allow Members to overcome the most critical and fundamental stalemates in the areas where multilateral The main items for discussion were the position to convergence has proven to be especially challenging”. be taken by the European Union on the Doha Development Agenda (DDA), the future path of the WTO and the negotiations on the revision to the Government Procurement Agreement (GPA). There was broad agreement on the former, in particular the EU: Telecoms Council importance of messages on resisting protectionism, on Statement strengthening the WTO and maintaining its relevance for tackling 21st century issues, and on the need for an active negotiating agenda in order to deliver “early harvests” of those areas that were most advanced in Baroness Garden of Frognal: My honourable friend, the DDA such as trade facilitation. the Minister for Culture, Communications and Creative Industries (Ed Vaizey) has made the following Statement. The UK, supported by the majority of Member States, called for the EU to conclude the 10-year long I represented the UK at the Telecoms Council in process of reviewing the Government Procurement Brussels on 13 December 2011. The meeting was Agreement. I argued that a successful deal would pave chaired by the Polish Presidency. the way for the opening of negotiations with China on There were four substantive agenda items: its possible future accession to the GPA. I also stressed 1. Proposal for a Decision of the European Parliament the value of obtaining a business-friendly deal at such and of the Council establishing the first Radio Spectrum a critical moment for the EU and the WTO. Policy Programme (RSPP): Adoption of Council’s Subsequent to the Trade FAC, I represented the position at first reading. (EM 13872/10) UK at the World Trade Organisation’s Eighth Ministerial This item was for Member States to agree to a Conference (MC8) in Geneva from 15-17 December. Council position to enable a First Reading deal to be The Conference agreed to Russia’s accession to the reached with the European Parliament on the WTO after an 18-year negotiation. Agreement was Commission’s proposed RSPP (EM 13872/10). The also given to accession by Samoa and Montenegro. Council adopted this position without substantive All will become Members of the WTO during 2012 comment. when domestic ratification is complete. With the approval 2. Proposal for Regulation of the European Parliament of the accession of Vanuatu earlier this year, this will and of the Council on roaming on public mobile networks take the WTO’s membership from 153 to 157. Samoa within the community—Progress Report and Exchange and Vanuatu are the first Least Developed Countries of views (EM 12639/11 and EM 12666/11) (LDCs) to join since 2004. This item was an exchange of views based around The Conference also agreed a waiver from WTO three questions on the above proposal as detailed in rules to allow preferential market access to LDC providers my Pre-Council Statement and was the only item that of services, extended the deadline for LDCs to bring resulted in a roundtable debate. I intervened as indicated in rules to protect intellectual property, and agreed in my Pre-Council Statement. provisions aimed at speeding up LDCs’ membership The main points of the discussion were: negotiations. Members also reaffirmed their commitment Most Member States agreed that the aim should be to working towards the implementation of promises to adopt the new regulation before the expiration on Duty Free Quota Free Access (DFQF) and cotton, of the current regulation to avoid any gaps in first made at MC6 in Hong Kong in 2005. consumer protection; Finally, the 42 signatories to the Government Most Member States would prefer a technology-neutral Procurement Agreement (a plurilateral agreement within regulation that does not contain the technical details the WTO framework allowing access to each others’ of the structural solutions to be adopted. Thus, any procurement market) agreed, after 10 years of negotiation, technical detail would be contained in BEREC guidance a revision to the Agreement. The deal expanded market and subject to consultation with key stakeholders; access within the signatories, including, for the EU, Many Member States were in favour of promoting access to ¤100bn worth of PFI contracts related to the European approach to mobile roaming regulation reconstruction in Japan. within worldwide fora such as the ITU. However, On the Doha Development Agenda negotiations the UK and others noted that Europe should strive the agreed Chair’s summary noted that negotiations to lead by example, rather than impose its approach were at an “impasse”, that Members had “significantly on the world; and WS 193 Written Statements[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Statements WS 194

A number of Member States stressed the importance Communication from the Commission on the of ensuring the establishment of effective competition results of the public consultation on the role of the within the EU roaming market before price caps are universal service obligation in electronic communications lifted. (EM17466/11). 3. Proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament Open data—an engine for innovation, growth and and of the Council concerning the European Network transparentgovernance—PresentationbytheCommission. and Information Security Agency (ENISA—Progress Connecting Europe Facility—proposal for a Regulation Report (EM 14358/10) of the European Parliament and of the Council on guidelines for trans-European networks and repealing This item was a progress report from the Presidency Decision No. 1336/97/EC (EM17176/11 and EM16006/ (EM 14358/10). I did not intervene on this item and 11)—Presentation by the Commission. there were no substantive interventions from other State of play on implementation of the Electronics Member States. Communication Framework—Information from The Commission stated that it will publish a the Commission. comprehensive internet security plan during 2012, the Work Programme of the incoming Presidency— aim of which will be to: ensure that IT-related products Information by the Danish delegation. and services are designed to survive cyberattacks; and My only intervention under AOB was on item A. I ensure that Member States computer emergency response intervened as per my Pre-Council Statement by stating teams can exchange information more freely, thus that the Commission should bring forward actions allowing them to co-operate more effectively. that lead to the creation of a true pan-European Digital Single Market. Other Member States including 4. Lunchtime discussion on the future of universal Denmark, Netherlands and Sweden also highlighted service in telecommunications, with regard to the the importance of this issue during similar interventions. communication of the European Commission presented in the end of November (EM17466/11) The Council broke after the ENISA item for lunch. Health: Public Health System During the lunch, there was a debate on the issue of Statement whether broadband should be added to the Universal Service Directive, with debate framed by the three The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, questions posed by the Presidency as detailed in my Department of Health (Earl Howe): My right honourable Pre-Council Statement. This debate was prompted by friend the Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew the publication of the Communication from the Lansley) has made the following Written Ministerial Commission on the results of the public consultation Statement. on the role of the universal service obligation in electronic Today I am publishing policy updates on the new communications. (EM17466/11) public health system, covering local government’s new I intervened along the lines set out in my Pre-Council public health functions and the operating model for Statement. Member States generally welcomed the Public Health England (PHE). Subject to the passage decision by the Commission to leave to them when to of the Health and Social Care Bill, PHE will be decide to introduce a universal service obligation that established in April 2013. would include broadband. The Government have an ambitious programme to improve public health through strengthening local 5. Communication from the Commission on Net action, supporting self-esteem and behavioural changes, Neutrality—Adoption of Council conclusions (EM 9350/ promoting healthy choices and changing the environment 11). to support healthier lives. After lunch, the Council then considered the adoption The updates define the Government’s plans, set out of the Council Conclusions that cover the recent in the White Paper Healthy Lives, Healthy People: Our Communication entitled The open internet and net Strategy for Public Health in England, in November neutrality in Europe. (EM9350/11). The Conclusions 2010, to change the way that public health is delivered were adopted without any substantive comment. However, nationally through establishing Public Health England I did intervene to highlight the self-regulatory initiative as an executive agency and locally, through moving that UK stakeholders were engaged in. responsibility and accountability for public health to local government. This concluded the formal substantive business items for Council. However, there were eight items that were These reforms will see local authorities taking the taken under “Any Other Business”. They were: lead for improving health and coordinating local efforts to protect the public’s health and well-being, and Digital Agenda for Europe—Information from the ensuring health services effectively promote population Commission (EM9981/10). health. Local political leadership will be central to making this work. Ministerial conference on Perspectives for the In addition, a new executive agency, Public Health development of the electronic communications England, will: market in the EU (Warszawa 19-20 October 2011) —Information from the Presidency. deliver services: health protection, public health information and intelligence, and services for the 6th Ministerial conference e-government (Poznan public through social marketing and behavioural 17-18 November)—Information from the Presidency. insight activities; WS 195 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 196

lead for public health by encouraging transparency Union have agreed to take to their Executives as the and accountability, building the evidence base, building best that can be achieved through negotiations. There relationships promoting public health; and is a specific outstanding issue relating to mechanisms support the development of the specialist and wider for Prison Officers to retire earlier than state pension public health workforce by appointing directors of age where we are continuing to have discussions with public health with local authorities, supporting excellence the Prison Officers’ Association. We will invite these in public health practice and bringing together the unions to join us in further work on the remaining wider range of public health professionals. details in the New Year, and their Executives will consult members as appropriate. The continued union The NHS will continue to play a full role in providing engagement includes a commitment to suspend any care, tackling inequalities and ensuring every clinical further industrial action while the final details are contact counts. resolved and Unions are consulting their members. In Healthy Lives, Health People: Update and Way The core parameters of the new scheme are set out Forward, published in July 2011, we included below: commissioning of termination of pregnancies as one of the areas for which local authorities will be responsible. A pension scheme design based on career average; I have now reflected further on whether it would be A provisional accrual rate of 2.28 per cent appropriate for local authorities to be responsible for (equivalent to 1/43.9) of pensionable earnings each commissioning procedures that will involve surgical year, subject to further agreement on final details. procedures and the associated need for strong clinical Revaluation of active members’ benefits in line with governance arrangements to ensure people receive a CPI; safe, legal service. I therefore intend to consult on A Normal Pension Age equal to State Pension age, whether commissioning termination of pregnancies which applies both to active members and deferred should in the longer term be the responsibility of members (for new scheme service only); clinical commissioning groups or local authorities. In the interim, as a practical measure, CCGs will be Pensions in payment to increase in line with Prices responsible for commissioning these services for April (currently CPI); 2013. Benefits earned in deferment to increase in line The update documents have been placed in the with Prices (currently CPI); Library. Copies are available to honourable Members Average member contributions of 5.6 per cent, with from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the some protection for the lowest paid (the detailed Printed Paper Office. The updates are also available at structure of which is still to be agreed); http://healthandcare.dh.gov.uk/category/public- Optional lump sum commutation at a rate of 12:1, health. in accordance with HMRC limits and regulations; Spouses/partner pension of three-eighths of pension, Pensions: Civil Service Pensions in line with the current open scheme ; Statement Lump sum on death in service of two times salary; III-health benefits in line with those in the current Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My right honourable open scheme; friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office (Francis Actuarially fair early/late retirement factors on a Maude) has made the following Written Ministerial cost-neutral basis; and, Statement: An employer contribution cap to provide backstop On 2 November the Chief Secretary to the Treasury protection to the taxpayer against unforeseen costs made a Statement to the House setting out an improved and risks and allowance for an improvement in offer on public service pensions to public sector workers member benefits if the value of the scheme falls (Cm 8214). This offer provided a more generous cost beyond a fixed level; ceiling for scheme-specific discussions to work within, The scheme will support the use of partial retirement and protected all those within 10 years of their pension and will follow the recommended approach set out age from any further change. This generous offer was in the Independent Public Service Pensions Commission conditional on the Government and trades unions final report of 10 March 2011 on abatement (details reaching agreement by the end of the year, including to be finalised); and in the Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme, bringing to a conclusion talks that have lasted since February A guarantee, outside of the scheme designs 2011. parameters set out above, of no further reform for the next 25 years. Since 2 November I and my officials have been engaged in detailed and intensive talks with the National Transitional Arrangements Trade Union Committee for the Civil Service. I can Scheme members who, as of 1 April 2012, have now report to the House on the heads of agreement on 10 years or less to their current pension age will see no the scheme design for the Principal Civil Service Pension change in when they can retire, nor any decrease in the Scheme to be introduced in 2015, on which talks have amount of pension they receive at their current Normal concluded. The Government have made clear this sets Pension Age. They will be allowed to remain members out their final position on the main elements of scheme of their existing schemes up to and including the point design, which the FDA, Prospect, GMB, Prison at which they draw their pension rights and all current Governors Association and the Immigration Services scheme rules will continue to apply. WS 197 Written Statements[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Statements WS 198

Members who are within a further 3.5 years outside suspend any further industrial action while the final this protected group will have an additional degree of details are resolved and Unions are consulting their protection, in the form of further accrual in their members. existing schemes. This protection will be tapered in a The core parameters of the agreed new scheme linear fashion depending on the age of the member. design are set out below: Areas for further detailed discussion a single solution to both the short and long-term Discussions with the Trades Unions identified above issues by the early introduction of the new Scheme will continue early next year, to shape the remaining in April 2014, with regulations in place by April elements of the scheme design such as abatement, 2013; re-employment, treatment of re-joiners and public the single solution to be built on the basis of career sector transfers and contribution rates structures including average earnings; years 2 and 3 of the employee contribution increases. can include zero increases in employee contributions Any of these issues that affect the final cost of the for all, or the vast majority of members, provided scheme will need to be taken into account in the final that overall financial constraints set by the Government rate of benefit accrual. The requirement to fit the new are met; scheme within the revised cost ceiling for the Reference Scheme published on 2 November will remain, and some elements of choice to encourage retention of agreement on these issues will also be subject to review existing membership and encourage new membership; by HM Treasury to agree the approach taken to risk and management and impact on cash flows. flexible retirement age built around the Scheme’s The Government Actuary’s Department has confirmed normal retirement age equal to the State Pension that this scheme design does not exceed the cost ceiling Age or age 65, whichever is later, and applies both set by the Government on 2 November. Copies of the to active members and deferred members (new heads of agreement and the scheme actuary’s verification scheme service only). If a member’s State Pension have been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses. Age rises, then normal pension age will do so too for all post-2015 service. A copy of the Heads of Agreement has been placed Pensions: Local Government Pension in the Library of the House. Scheme Statement Pensions: NHS Pension Scheme Statement The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): My right honourable Friend the Secretary of State for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Communities and Local Government (Eric Pickles) of Health (Earl Howe): My right honourable friend the has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley) On 2 November the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. made a Statement to the House setting out an improved On 2 November the Chief Secretary to the Treasury offer on public service pensions to public sector workers made a Statement to the House setting out an improved (Cm 8214). This offer provided a more generous cost offer on public service pensions to public sector workers ceiling for scheme-specific discussions to work within, (Cm 8214). This offer provided a more generous cost and protected all those within 10 years of their pension ceiling for scheme-specific discussions to work within, age from any further change. This generous offer was and protected all those within 10 years of their pension conditional on the Government and trades unions age from any further change. This generous offer was reaching agreement by the end of the year, including conditional on the Government and trades unions the Local Government Pension Scheme in England reaching agreement by the end of the year, including and Wales, bringing to a conclusion talks that have in NHS Pension Scheme, bringing to a conclusion lasted since February 2011. talks that have lasted since February 2011. Since 2 November, I have been engaged in talks Since 2 November I have been engaged in detailed with the local government trades unions and the Local and intensive talks with the health trades unions and Government Association (LGA) to enable purposeful employer representatives. I can now report to the discussions on local government pensions reform. I House on the heads of agreement on the scheme can now report to the House on the Heads of Agreement design for the NHS Pension Scheme to be reached in signed jointly by the local government trades unions 2015, on which talks have concluded. The government and the LGA on the principles governing the scheme have made clear this sets out their final position on the design, ongoing cost management and governance of main elements of scheme design, which unions have the new Scheme to be introduced in 2014. Further agreed to take to their Executives as the best that can work on these agreed principles will commence in the be achieved through negotiations. Further work on New Year under the supervision of a newly appointed the remaining details will take place in the new year, Project Board representing key Scheme partners. The and Executives will consult members as appropriate. Government have made clear this sets out their final This includes a commitment to suspend any further position on the main elements of scheme design, which industrial action while the final details are resolved unions have agreed to. This includes a commitment to and unions are consulting their members. WS 199 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 200

The main parameters of the new scheme are set out are beyond 10 years of their normal pension age, below: they lose 2 months of protection. At the end of the a pension scheme design based on career average; protected period, they will be transferred into the new pension arrangements; and a provisional accrual rate of 1/54th of pensionable earnings each year, subject to further agreement on the costs associated with the protection outlined outstanding issues not covered by this agreement above sit outside the costs of the reference scheme. (see Annexe A); On the basis that the scheme design within the revaluation of active members’ benefits in line with heads of agreement is agreed, the Government agree CPI plus 1.5 per cent per annum; to retain Fair Deal provision and extend access to public service pension schemes for transferring staff. a Normal Pension Age equal to the State Pension This means that all staff whose employment is Age, which applies both to active members and compulsorily transferred from the NHS under TUPE, deferred members (new scheme service only). If a including subsequent TUPE transfers, will still be able member’s SPA rises, then NPA will do so too for all to retain membership of the NHS Pension Scheme post-2015 service. Those within 10 years of NPA when transferred. These arrangements will replace the are excluded and accrued rights will also be related current provisions for bulk transfers under Fair Deal, to existing NPA; which will no longer apply. In addition, a partnership pensions in payment to increase in line with Prices review of the implementation of the provisions set out Index (currently CPI); in this paragraph for staff working in “Any Qualified benefits to increase in any period of deferment in Providers” (AQP) will be carried out. line with Prices Index (currently CPI); The Government Actuary’s Department has confirmed average member contributions of 9.8 per cent, with that this scheme design does not exceed the cost ceiling tiered contributions. Member contributions in year set by the Government on 2 November. Copies of the 1 to increase between 0 per cent and 2.4 per cent in heads of agreement and GAD verification have been year 1. There will be no increase in year 1 for staff placed in the Library. with WTE pensionable pay less than £26,557. There will be further discussions on contribution rates and increases in years 2 and 3; Pensions: Teachers’ Pension Scheme Statement optional lump sum commutation at a rate of £12 of lump sum for every £1 per annum of pension forgone in accordance with HMRC limits and regulations; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for early/late retirement factors on an actuarially Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My right honourable neutral basis; friend the Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove) has made the following Written Ministerial ill-health retirement pensions to be based on the Statement. current ill-health retirement arrangements but with On 2 November the Chief Secretary to the Treasury enhancement for higher tier awards to be at the made a Statement to the House setting out an improved rate of 50 per cent of prospective service to normal offer on public service pensions to public sector workers pension age; (Cm 8214). This offer provided a more generous cost spouse and partner pensions to continue to be based ceiling for scheme-specific discussions to work within, on an accrual rate of 1/160th. For deaths in retirement and protected all those within 10 years of their pension spouse and partner pensions will remain based on age from any further change. This generous offer was pre-commuted pension; conditional on the Government and trades unions an employer contribution cap as detailed in the reaching agreement by the end of the year, including Heads of Agreement. in the Teachers’Pension Scheme, bringing to a conclusion talks that have lasted since February 2011. There will be transitional protection: Since 2 November I have been engaged in detailed all accrued rights are protected and those past benefits and intensive talks with the teacher and lecturer trades will be linked to final salary when members leave unions and employer representatives. I can now report the scheme; to the House on the heads of agreement on the scheme all active NHS Pension Scheme members who as of design for the Teachers’Pension Scheme to be introduced 1 April 2012, have 10 years or less to their current in 2015, on which talks have concluded. The Government pension age, including MHOs and members of the have made clear this sets out their final position on the special classes will see no change in when they can main elements of scheme design, which unions have retire, nor any decrease in the amount of pension agreed to take to their Executives as the outcome of they receive at their current Normal Pension Age. negotiations on the main elements of scheme design. This will be achieved by allowing such members to This includes a commitment to seek Executives’agreement remain in their current arrangements until they to the suspension of any industrial action on pension retire (for 2008 members until they have taken all reform while the final details are being resolved. Further their 2008 pension benefits); detailed work will take place in the New Year and members who are within a further 3.5 years of Executives will consult members as appropriate. their normal pension age,(ie up to 13.5 years from The agreement includes changes to the Government’s their NPA) will have limited protection with linear reference scheme to reflect the priorities of the teaching tapering so that for every month of age that they profession in relation to early retirement and other WS 201 Written Statements[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Statements WS 202 issues, consistent with the need to remain within the order policing and an appropriate arrests policy. I am Government’s overall cost ceiling. pleased to be able to tell the House that HMIC has The agreement reached allows for further discussions concluded its review and has today published its report, on variations to the balance between the accrual rate entitled The Rules of Engagement: A Review of the and the CARE revaluation factor within the limits of August 2011 Disorders. the Government’s cost ceiling. HMIC recognise that the events of August 2011 The core parameters of the new scheme are set out were “unparalleled in terms of speed, scale and below: geographical spread of disorder”. HMIC also recognises the achievements of the police in bringing the disorder A pension scheme design based on career average; under control and in particular, the individual acts of A provisional accrual rate of 1/57th of pensionable bravery displayed by police officers across the country. earnings each year, and the resolution of The report confirms that the initial response, in outstanding issues not covered by this agreement. particular to the disorder which broke out in Tottenham, Revaluation of active members’ benefits in line with was too slow. This has been acknowledged in the CPI + 1.6 per cent. interim reports released by the Crime and Victims Normal Pension Age equal to State Pension Age, Panel and by the Metropolitan Police themselves. which applies both to active members and deferred This review makes a number of interrelated members (new scheme service only); recommendations which will require careful and serious Pensions in payment to increase in line with Prices consideration by the Government and the police service Index (currently CPI); working together. This work will be aligned with the Benefits earned in deferment to increase in line development of the Strategic Policing Requirement. with CPI; The way in which the police respond to public Average member contributions of 9.6 per cent, disorder is a matter of key public interest. The August with some protection for the lowest paid; disturbances brought havoc to some of our cities and communities. HMIC has, in a short time, produced a Optional lump sum commutation at a rate of 12:1, wide-ranging and detailed report and this is to be in accordance with HMRC limits and regulations; commended. The report contains a significant amount Spouses/Partner pension in accordance with of detail and evidence which will require detailed current provisions; assessment by the Government and the police service Lump sum on death in service of three times FTE as a whole. salary; A copy of this report will be placed in Library of Ill-health benefits the same as those in the current the House. open scheme; Actuarially fair early/late retirement factors on a cost-neutral basis except for those with a NPA above age 65, who will have early retirement factors Shipping: Emergency Towing Vessels of 3 per cent per year for a maximum of three Statement years in respect of the period from age 65 to their NPA; and An employer cost cap to provide backstop The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace protection to the taxpayer against unforeseen costs of Tankerness): My right honourable friend the Secretary and risks. of State for Scotland (Michael Moore) has made the following Ministerial Statement. The Government Actuary’s Department has confirmed that this scheme design does not exceed the cost ceiling On 10 October 2011, I announced to the House set by the Government on 2 November. Copies of the that the Scotland Office would lead efforts to secure a heads of agreement and GAD verification have been long-term replacement for the emergency towing vessels deposited in the Libraries of both Houses. (ETV) service in waters surrounding the Northern Isles and Western Isles. Extensive discussions have since taken place with a very wide range of interested Police: Review of Public Order Policing parties, including senior representatives of the oil and Statement shipping industries as well as public sector organisations. I am pleased to confirm that the North Sea oil industry, led by Oil & Gas UK and its member companies, The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): has indicated its willingness to offer support by establishing My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for a call-off arrangement for their chartered vessels to be the Home Department (Theresa May) has today made deployed in support of HM Coastguard in the event the following Written Ministerial Statement. of an emergency. Detailed work is underway between On 15 August, I wrote to ask Her Majesty’s Chief operators, vessel owners and the Maritime and Coastguard Inspector of Constabulary, Sir Denis O’Connor, to Agency on working practices and necessary protocols undertake a review of public order policing and to governing the arrangements. During the last meeting consider further work to support clearer guidance to of the Scottish ETV working group, I discussed the forces on the size of deployments, the need for mutual matter in depth with Oil & Gas UK, local authorities aid, pre-emptive action, public order tactics, the number and other interested parties which have responded of officers (including commanders) trained in public positively to this proposal. With that in mind, I have WS 203 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 204 instructed that work should proceed quickly with a Further to my announcement on 1 November, I view to putting a framework in place as early as would inform Parliament about the outcome of the possible in the New Year. review into the status of the Chief Executive of Skills This is a very positive development offering additional Funding and the Skills Funding Agency. reassurance to local communities, particularly those in The review has concluded that the existing arrangement the Northern Isles. This step also demonstrates active of a statutory post holder should be replaced with a support by the oil industry for corporate social more traditional Executive Agency model. This is responsibility and I greatly welcome its helpful consistent with the Government’s wider commitment contribution and constructive engagement. to radically improve the transparency and accountability The Government intend to use the remainder of the for all public services, providing clarity and focus to £3 million funding provided by the Department for the work of the Agency and ensuring that skills and Transport to maintain cover until no later than 31 March apprenticeship programmes are delivered within an 2012. Further work will continue with local authorities overarching strategic framework set by government. along the west coast to examine all viable long-term The Skills Funding Agency will continue to play a options for those waters, and I will reconvene a further vital role in funding the education and skills training meeting of the working group early in the New Year. that our country needs to tackle the very real challenges that lie ahead; and the outcome of this review reflects the Government’s ongoing commitment to building Skills Funding Agency on the strength of the further education system, whilst Statement ensuring rigorous accountability structures are in place. I can confirm that both the Skills Funding Agency The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, and wider stakeholders have been fully engaged in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness review process, and I will be writing to them today Wilcox): My honourable friend the Minister of State about the outcome of this work. for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning We will bring forward legislation for this change as (John Hayes) has today made the following Statement. and when parliamentary time allows. WA 341 Written Answers[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Answers WA 342

are significant changes to any of the details in the Written Answers original agreement (e.g. costs, required outputs, timetable, research team, etc). Tuesday 20 December 2011 This study was commissioned by the Veterinary Medicines Directorate as an initial investigation into the role of antimicrobial usage as a factor influencing Aerospace the prevalence of E.coli carrying extended-spectrum Question beta-lactamases (ESBLs) on dairy farms. At the outset the study was set up for 1 year to explore the feasibility Asked by Lord Empey of the approach. Data collected confirmed the feasibility of the proposed methods and so the variation was put To ask Her Majesty’s Government what level of in place to strengthen the output. The variation extended research and development funding they are making the project by one year so that a further 20 ESBL available to the United Kingdom aerospace sector positive and 20 ESBL negative farms could be identified in the financial years (1) 2011–12, (2) 2012–13, and then visited to take samples and carry out the subsequent (3) 2013–14. [HL14206] analyses. As a result of the extra work, the cost of the project increased from £170,525 to £274,483. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): Agriculture: Pig and Poultry Products Government have committed over £47 million for Aerospace Question research and technology projects in 2011-12, In addition, Asked by Lord Laird there are already further commitments of £33 million in 2012-13 and £3.4 million in 2013-14. The Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they are working with the sector through the joint Government/ have drawn any safety concerns to the World Trade Industry Aerospace Growth Partnership to identify Organisation’s attention under its sanitary and future research priorities. phytosanitary agreement regarding non-European In addition, the Technology Strategy Board (TSB) Union countries exporting pig and poultry products has identified between £3 million and £5 million in to the United Kingdom. [HL14153] each of the three financial years to support aerospace Research and Development (R&D). The TSB will The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department work closely with the industry and the Aerospace and for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor Defence Knowledge Transfer Network (KTN) to determine of Holbeach): Defra has not raised any concerns to the how those funds can be most effectively used to accelerate World Trade Organisation on imports of pig and poultry technology development and commercialisation. products into the UK. The rules for imports from non-European Union The sector can also benefit from other support (EU) countries to the United Kingdom of animals provided by the TSB such as through the KTN and and animal products, including pig and poultry products, the recently launched High Value Manufacturing Catapult are set at the EU level. All imported meat must come centre, as well as competitions in cross-cutting technology from a country authorised for imports into the EU; areas suitable for wide industrial application. from an approved establishment; each consignment The Government also provide repayable loans in must be accompanied by the appropriate animal and the form of launch investment to help fund the public health certification; and must be officially checked development of new aircraft programmes. The most on entry to the EU at designated border inspection recent of these have been to Airbus and GKN (for the posts. development of the Airbus A350 XWB) and to If an outbreak of disease occurs in the exporting Bombardier (for the CSeries). The total value of loans country, or there are any major deficiencies found that for these programmes is approximately £514 million. may pose a risk to animal or public health, appropriate safeguard actions on imports will be discussed and voted on by veterinary experts from all 27 EU member Agriculture: Dairy Farms states on the Standing Committee on the Food Chain Question and Animal Health. These import controls to protect animal and public Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark health are in line with the guidelines established by the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the Office International des Epizooties (01E), the world variation to the pilot study to collect antimicrobial organisation of animal health, and the sanitary and resistance and other relevant data from dairy farms phytosanitary agreement of the World Trade Organisation. with and without extended-spectrum beta-lactamases E coli. [HL14257] Apprenticeships Questions The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether a of Holbeach): All Defra evidence contracts are closely survey of apprentices’ pay was undertaken in the monitored by Defra specialists working with policy past year; and, if so, what were the results and what colleagues. Contract variations are required if there is their assessment of those results. [HL14254] WA 343 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 344

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department 1 TNS-BMRB and AlphaPlus Consultancy Ltd. (1/12/11) for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): 2011 Skills for Life survey: headline findings, Department for A UK wide survey of apprenticeship pay is currently Business, Innovation and Skills, BIS research paper 57. Available online at: http: www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/further-education- under way. The results are due to be published by early skills/docs/0-9/11-1367-2011-skills-for-life-survey-findings.pdf, 2012. accessed on 13/12/11. Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark 2 The Skills for Life surveys were conducted in 2002-03 and 2010-11. For ease of reference, they are referred to in the text as To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were the the 2003 and 2011 surveys. results of, and what is their assessment of, the 2011 3 BIS (1/12/11) New Challenges, New Chances: Further Skills for Life Survey. [HL14255] Education and Skills System Reform Plan: building a World Class Skills System, available online at: http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/ biscore/further-education-skills/docs/f/11-1340-further- education-skills-system-reform-plan.pdf, accessed on 13/12/11. Baroness Wilcox: The 2011 Skills for Life survey Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark examines the literacy, numeracy and information and communication technology (ICT) skills of adults, aged To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were the between 16 and 65 years old, in England. This is a results of, and what is their assessment of, the follow-up to the original survey conducted in 2003.The 2010/11 Learner Destination Survey. [HL14256] headline findings report for the 2011 survey1 was published on 1 December. The full survey report is due to be published in spring 2012. Baroness Wilcox: The most recently published survey covers learners completing priority further education The key headline findings from the survey are that: courses in the 2007-08 academic year and progressing There has been a substantial up-shift from Level 1 to a positive destination in 2008-09. This can be found to Level 2 literacy: 56.6 per cent of 16-65 year-olds at: http://readingroom.lsc.gov.uk/SFA/FtE_Summary with literacy at Level 2 or above in 2011,2 compared _Statistics_2010.pdf to 44.2 per cent in 2003. We will publish the outcome of a more recent Among 16-18 year-olds there has been a 13 percentage survey covering positive destinations in 2009-10 from point rise in the proportion achieving Level 2 or the academic year 2008-09 in March 2012. above literacy and a 12 percentage point rise for 19-65 year-olds. There has been no statistically significant change in Armed Forces: Bahrain the proportion of 16-65 year-olds achieving Level 1 Question or above literacy: 85.1 per cent in 2011, compared to 83.8 per cent in 2003. Asked by Lord Hoyle There are more adults at the lowest levels of literacy; To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether any those with Entry Level 1 and Entry Level 2 literacy of the United Kingdom’s military personnel stationed have increased from 5.4 per cent (1.7 million) in in Bahrain in March were engaged in any way on 2003 to 7.1 per cent (2.4 million) in 2011. behalf of the government of Bahrain during the There has been a small decrease (2.3 percentage uprising. [HL14303] points) since 2003 in the proportion of 16-65 year-olds possessing numeracy skills at Entry Level 3 or above: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry 76.3 per cent in 2011. compared to 78.6 per cent in of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): No. 2003. On the three practical ICT assessments, respondents tended to perform best in e-mailing (52 per cent at Autumn Statement Level 2 or above). People were least likely to achieve Question Level 2 or above on spreadsheet use (17 per cent), but word processing had the highest proportion of Asked by Lord Laird people at Entry Level 2 or below (43 per cent). To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Seven in 10 adults aged 16-65 years old achieved improvement they plan in the connections between Level 1 or above in literacy and Entry Level 3 or Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as announced above in numeracy. One in 10 (10 per cent) were in the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s Autumn below both of these levels. Statement. [HL14219] The Government highlighted in New Challenges, New Chances,3 published on 1 December 2011, that though there has been a large improvement since 2003 The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord in Level 2 and above literacy, it is unacceptable that Sassoon): As set out in the Autumn Statement, this 24 per cent of adults lack functional numeracy skills Government will continue to work with the devolved and 15 per cent lack functional literacy skills. Following Administrations to improve the links between our their review of adult literacy and numeracy provision, nations. the Government have set out in New Challenges, New As part of this, the Government announced that Chances the actions they are taking to improve the Belfast will become one of 10 “super-connected cities” economic and personal returns of its investment in across the UK, with a new urban broadband fund literacy and numeracy provision. providing £100 million of investment across the UK. WA 345 Written Answers[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Answers WA 346

Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland b) “Climate Asia” in seven countries across Asia; Question and Asked by Lord Myners c) a health programme in India. The Government estimate that bringing these together To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in will result in an efficiency saving of just under £360,000. the light of the Financial Services Authority’s report In order to avoid the risk of dependency on funding, The failure of the Royal Bank of Scotland, they the grant will not exceed 40 per cent of the BBC World propose to disqualify Sir Tom McKillop and Sir Fred Service Trust’s overall annual funding. Goodwin under the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1981. [HL14316] British Embassies The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Question for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): The Financial Services Authority’s (FSA) report into Asked by Lord Janner of Braunstone the failure of RBS refers to the tact that previous material on RBS compiled by PwC was disclosed to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they officials earlier this year. This information was provided plan to expand the High Tech Hub initiative in the so a view could be taken on whether there was sufficient British Embassy in Tel Aviv to United Kingdom evidence to suggest that the Secretary of State should embassies in other nations. [HL14085] take action against any director by way of disqualification. Counsel advised then that it would not be appropriate The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth to bring proceedings on the information contained in Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The hi-tech Hub in that material. Now that the FSA’s report has been Israel was opened by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, published, the Secretary of State has instructed Counsel my right honourable friend the Member for Tatton to provide further advice on what course of action is (Mr Osborne) on 3 November 2011. This initiative has open. been designed by our ambassador to Tel Aviv. At present, there are no plans to open similar hi-tech hubs in our other embassies around the world. However BBC: World Service Trust the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is monitoring Question the progress of the hub in Tel Aviv to determine Asked by Lord Laird whether it might act as a model or provide lessons To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to relevant to our engagement in other countries in the the Written Answer by Baroness Northover on future, in line with the expansion of our efforts to 28 November (WA 2–3), what are the “development promote the UK’s prosperity. results already being achieved and delivered” by the BBC World Service Trust; what are the existing programmes funded by the Department for Businesses: Renovation Allowance International Development that will now be brought Question together and what will be the resulting efficiencies; Asked by Lord Storey and whether they foresee any risks arising from the £90 million of funding being provided representing To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many up to 40 per cent of the Trust’s annual budget. regeneration projects have been funded using the [HL14115] Business Premises Renovation Allowance. [HL14180]

Baroness Northover: The grant to the BBC World Service Trust is building on development results already The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord achieved through governance, health, and humanitarian Sassoon): The information requested is not available. programmes already funded by the Department for Businesses only have to report values of business International Development. For example, in Bangladesh, premises renovation allowance claims on their tax 60 per cent of people thought the “Question Time” returns. They do not have to state how many different programme had made politicians and officials more projects these claims relate to. For accounting periods accountable. In Cambodia, the health programme ending in 2009-10, the latest year for which this data is increased the number of people using condoms, the available, around 2,000 businesses made claims for number of women going to antenatal checks, and the business premises renovation allowance. number of people washing their hands. “Lifeline” programmes are reaching people in emergencies with information that is critical to their survival. A young Climate Change woman’s comment on a Darfur programme was that Question “when you listen to this programme you feel that it is the only link between you and the outside world”. Asked by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead The existing programmes being rolled into the new Toask Her Majesty’s Government whether resources grant are: for climate change adaptation and mitigation will a) “ANational Conversation”focusing on governance be additional to and not taken from the Department in Tanzania, Angola and Sierra Leone; for International Development budget. [HL14110] WA 347 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 348

Baroness Northover: The UK Government’s four-yearly Crime: Rioting spending review set a budget of £2.9 billion for climate Questions finance for the period 2011-12 to 2014-15, known as the international climate fund. UK international climate Asked by Lord Ouseley finance is official development assistance (ODA) and To ask Her Majesty’s Government who they is being met from within the rising aid budget. The hold responsible for the failure to provide protection share of UK ODA devoted to climate finance will to businesses and residents during the August riots; continue to account for less than 10 per cent in every and whether those affected have received apologies year of this spending period. from those responsible. [HL14175]

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): The Government are clear that responsibility for any Consumer Credit Act 2006 damage or harm to businesses or the public lies squarely Question with the perpetrators. Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Asked by Lord Ouseley To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Written Answer by Baroness Wilcox on 16 February total value of claims against public compensation (WA 165), what parts of the Consumer Credit Act schemes made to date by residents who and businesses 2006 have yet to be brought into force. [HL14295] which experienced damage during the August riots; how much has been paid to date; and what is the estimated total cost of public compensation to date. [HL14176] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): Paragraph 17 of Schedule 3 of the Consumer Credit Lord Henley: Under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886, Act 2006 is not in force. It has not been necessary to applications for compensation are made directly to commence this paragraph because its effect has been police authorities. There is no requirement for them to achieved by the transitional provisions in articles 4 and provide this information to the Home Office. Therefore, 5 of the Consumer Credit Act 2006 (Commencement the precise figures of payments that have been made to No 2 and Transitional Provisions and Savings) Order claimants is held locally by each police authority. 2007. Criminal Records Question Corporate Governance Asked by Lord Patel of Blackburn Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what checks Asked by Lord Myners are made on the criminal records of foreign offenders when they are arrested in the United Kingdom. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to [HL14179] the answer by Baroness Wilcox on 7 December (HL Deb, col 715), what actions they are taking to The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): get shareholders in public companies to “take the All foreign criminals are checked against the police responsibility” and use “the power that they have” national computer to see whether they have previous on corporate governance. [HL14249] offences in the United Kingdom. The police service is able, using the provisions in EU council decision 2005/ 876/JHA on the exchange of information extracted The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department from the criminal record, to make a request for the for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): previous convictions of the arrested individual from The Government are clear that engagement between the country of nationality if the individual is an EU institutional investors and companies is vital to help national. Such requests are routed through the UK improve long-term returns to shareholders and the Central Authority for the Exchange of Criminal Records. efficient exercise of governance responsibilities. The Although many member states do provide information stewardship code, introduced last year,sets out aspirational on request it is not mandatory to do so under the standards for institutional investors in their engagement council decision. It will become mandatory when with companies. It now has over 230 signatories and a framework decision 2009/315/JHA on the organisation report published this month has found that the quality and content of the exchange of information extracted of engagement between investors and company boards from the criminal record between member states comes is already improving. into force at the end of April 2012. The police service, The Kay review is currently looking at the relationships conscious that the self-declaration of nationality and between shareholders and companies, including how identity information by the arrested individual can effectively they engage with each other. The review result in difficulties in identifying individuals and finding will produce a set of recommendations next summer out their correct criminal record, has been working which may propose how to further strengthen such with EU partners to exchange fingerprints as well as engagement. alpha-numeric information. WA 349 Written Answers[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Answers WA 350

The police service can also, irrespective of the The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord individual’s nationality, check Interpol records concerning McNally): Following Zimbabwe’s withdrawal from an arrested individual. It can also, either directly or the Commonwealth, the UK Government decided to through Interpol channels request information from maintain Commonwealth rights for Zimbabwean citizens the country of nationality. The decision on whether to in the UK, drawing on a precedent set with Fiji. As do so is an operational matter for the police. such, Zimbabwean citizens are still allowed to benefit under any relevant nationality provisions including voting rights. The UK Government look forward to a Debt: Pawnbrokers time when the conditions are right for Zimbabwe to Question return to the Commonwealth. Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Employment Tribunals To ask Her Majesty’s Government what amount of money they estimate is borrowed through Question pawnbrokers in the United Kingdom. [HL14297] Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government what work The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department has been done to date in preparation for the next for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): Survey of Employment Tribunal Applications. In 2009 the Office of Fair Trading estimated that there [HL14253] were 1,200 pawnbroking shops across the UK, with the annual loan book worth between £500 million and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department £600 million. for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): The survey of employment tribunal applications (SETA) isabenchmarksurveythatallowsustomonitordevelopments Elderly People: Benefits in the employment tribunal system. It is an important Question part of the research that we do, particularly given the policy changes in this area. The most recent SETA was Asked by Lord Ouseley published in 2008. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they We are considering whether and when to carry out have any plans to means-test state pension payments another survey of employment tribunal applications, or to alter the current basis of universal benefits for taking into account policy developments, resources the elderly. [HL14173] and budget. As part of these considerations we have carried out a feasibility study to assess the evidence needs for a new SETA, examine the methodology used The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department in previous years, and consider and assess the design for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The Government options which might deliver the requirements at the are preserving key benefits for older people, including same and reduced costs as SETA 2008. winter fuel payments, free sight tests, prescriptions, TV licences and concessionary bus travel. There are no plans to means test the contributory Energy: Carbon Emissions state pension. A consultation paper, A State Pension Question for the 21st Century, (Command 8053) published in Asked by Lord Berkeley April this year outlined proposals to simplify the state pension system to make if a more effective foundation To ask Her Majesty’s Government what quantity for retirement saving. of carbon emissions are generated by the process of The age at which people become entitled to free extracting one barrel of oil from (1) tar sands, and prescriptions will be changed to reflect changes to (2) North Sea oil reserves. [HL13899] state pension age qualification. The Department of Health is considering how best to implement this The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department change of criteria for free prescriptions and in the of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): The mean time the age of entitlement will remain at 60. results would vary according to a range of factors, There are no current plans for any further changes. including the efficiency of the technology used to extract the oil and the heaviness of the oil itself.

Elections: Voting System Energy: Fuel Rebates Question Question Asked by Lord Ashcroft Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon To ask Her Majesty’s Government why citizens To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further of Zimbabwe resident in the United Kingdom to the Written Statement by Lord Sassoon on are able to vote in United Kingdom elections 25 November concerning the rural fuel rebate pilot following the 2003 withdrawal by Zimbabwe from scheme (WS 91–2), why it was necessary to obtain the Commonwealth. European Union clearance before introducing the [HL14251] scheme. [HL14243] WA 351 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 352

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord The tables below show the number of prepayment Sassoon): The EU energy tax directive normally requires meter customers with each of the big six suppliers member states to apply a single nationwide rate of from 2006-2010. duty on each fuel product. In order to apply different rates in different regions, member states require a Prepayment electricity customers specific exemption, or derogation. Securing this requires the support of the European Commission and the Supplier 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 unanimous agreement of all the EU member states. British 36,672 53,936 52,706 67,011 70,368 The Government secured EU clearance for the Gas introduction of a 5p per litre rural fuel rebate pilot E.ON 81,795 163,547 45,452 52,009 28,332 scheme in the Inner and Outer Hebrides, Northern Edf 26,321 25,789 29,362 46,366 33,577 Isles, islands in the Clyde and the Isles of Scilly. The Energy scheme will come into force on 1 March 2012. Npower 52,096 37,479 40,478 49,523 38,637 SSE 32,621 39,024 41,862 50,662 64,799 Scottish 33,118 42,310 38,605 30,007 20,307 Energy: Green Deal Power Questions Total 262,623 362,085 248,465 295,578 256,020 Asked by Lord Boswell of Aynho Prepayment gas customers To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action Supplier 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 they will take to publicise serious breaches of the Green Deal Code of Conduct by assessors or providers; British 131,576 158,687 142,153 112,217 99,251 what sanctions will be applicable; and whether those Gas sanctions will include deregistration. [HL14299] E.ON 28,548 8,671 16,063 21,007 20,121 Edf 9,714 11,850 11,985 23,608 19,807 Energy The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Npower 36,733 35,849 31,760 46,669 35,447 of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): Sanctions SSE 18,186 21,508 24,380 31,442 38,290 under the Green Deal are clearly set out in the Energy Scottish 14,912 15,550 15,611 20,114 14,892 Act 2011 and further detail will be confirmed in the Power framework regulations to be made by the Secretary of Total 239,669 252,115 241,952 255,057 227,808 State under the Act next year, including stop notices, enforcement orders, and powers to withdraw authorisation for assessors, installers, certification bodies and providers. The tables below show the number of prepayment meter customers in England, Scotland and Wales at Asked by Lord Boswell of Aynho the end of each year from 2006-2010. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, under the Green Deal, main contractors will be prohibited Prepayment electricity customers from charging Green Deal providers a reference fee. Region 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 [HL14300] England 2,869,169 2,900,085 2,946,850 3,076,814 3,196,445 13% 13% 13% 14% 14% The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): The Scotland 469,076 471,335 467,536 497,197 529,341 Green Deal draft legislative framework does not prohibit 18% 17% 17% 18% 18% contractors from charging Green Deal providers a Wales 225,840 220,701 215,805 225,149 232,584 reference fee. We believe many different business models 17% 16% 16% 17% 18% will emerge and this will be a matter for commercial contracts between various parties. Prepayment gas customers

Region 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Energy: Meters England 1,951,483 2,007,886 2,946,850 3,076,814 3,196,445 Questions 11% 11% 13% 14% 14% Asked by Baroness Smith of Basildon Scotland 179,646 200,530 467,536 497,197 529,341 10% 10% 17% 18% 18% To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many homes in the United Kingdom were using pre-payment Wales 141,638 141,277 215,805 225,149 232,584 meters according to (1) energy supplier, and (2) region, 13% 13% 16% 17% 18% in each of the last five years. [HL14337] Asked by Baroness Smith of Basildon The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): Ofgem of homes using pre-payment meters are in debt, or monitors and publishes information about the use of have accumulated arrears with their energy supplier; prepayment meters in its Social Obligations Annual and what is the total level of those arrears according Reports (ww (www.ofgem.gov.uk/sustainability). to (1) energy supplier; and (2) region. [HL14338] WA 353 Written Answers[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Answers WA 354

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department sustainability). The data do not give the number of of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): Ofgem prepayment meter customers who have been disconnected monitors and publishes information about the use of by their energy supplier due to non-payment. prepayment meters in its Social Obligations Annual The tables below show the total number of disconnections Reports (www.ofgem.gov.uk/sustainability). The data due to debt for electricity and gas supplies by each of do not give the total amount of arrears prepayment the big six suppliers. meter customers have accumulated with their energy supplier or by region. Disconnection of electricity supplies The tables below show the number of customers Supplier 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 who had a prepayment meter installed by the big six British 103172 suppliers to recover a debt from 2006-10. Gas Prepayment electricity customers E.ON 233 476 337 1 1 Edf 313 494 1138 1588 1341 Supplier 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Energy British 28,400 43,760 36,530 63,626 67,395 Npower 380 861 295 163 253 Gas SSE 97 178 175 156 82 E.ON 43,200 45,220 27,553 34,987 23,120 Scottish 234 648 885 418 230 Edf 14,646 12,383 12,297 32,993 24,371 Power Energy Total 1258 2657 2833 2343 1909 Npower 52,096 28,381 35,129 43,351 33,588 SSE 26,293 32,893 34,678 45,229 57,049 Disconnection of gas supplies Scottish 28,437 38,144 33,053 28,101 19,635 Power Supplier 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Total 193,072 200,781 179,240 248,287 225,158 British 208370 Gas Prepayment gas customers E.ON 644 928 445 0 0 Edf 526 878 975 474 234 Supplier 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Energy British 94,921 112,389 103,253 90,504 88,183 Npower 1637 1343 360 61 81 Gas SSE 593 728 335 98 66 E.ON 14,153 6,311 7,260 13,949 12,305 Scottish 454 848 799 1013 407 Edf 4,102 3,250 4,218 19,352 15,691 Power Energy Total 3856 4725 2922 1683 788 Npower 24,131 23,262 27,635 40,889 31,393 SSE 17,512 20,774 23,050 30,135 36,056 Scottish 13,680 14,143 12,887 19,178 14,624 Power Energy: Oil Sands Total 168,499 180,129 178,303 214,007 198,252 Question The tables below show the number of prepayment Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark meter customers in debt in England, Scotland and To ask Her Majesty’s Government , further to Wales at the end of each year from 2006-2010. the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 13 December Prepayment electricity customers (HL13910), with which (a) oil companies, (b) trade Region 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 associations, and (c) organisations representing environmental and social issues, Ministers or officials England 361,058 548,014 517,707 459,491 317,329 have discussed the issues of extraction of oil from Scotland 81,643 82,487 65,927 58,547 41,434 oil sands and the European Fuel Quality Directive. Wales 22,179 23,334 19,428 18,330 13,753 [HL14293]

Prepayment gas customers Earl Attlee: Ministers and officials have meetings Region 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 with a wide variety of organisations in the public and England 256,730 318,564 312,143 302,204 270,683 private sectors as part of the process of policy development Scotland 26,293 32,703 33,409 29,959 30,959 and delivery. As was the case with previous Wales 24,508 25,006 18,227 18,946 20,256 Administrations, it is not the Government’s normal practice to provide details of all such meetings. Asked by Baroness Smith of Basildon However, given the high public interest in this particular To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment subject I am happy to provide the following information. they have made of the number of pre-payment Ministers and officials from across government have meter energy customers who are disconnected by discussed the issues of extraction of from oil sands their energy supplier due to non-payment.[HL14339] and the fuel quality directive with: BP,Shell, Valero, Essar, ExxonMobil, Ineos Refining, Lord Marland: Ofgem monitors and publishes Total, SilverBirch Energy, Connacher Oil and Gas, information about the use of prepayment meters in its Statoil, ConocoPhillips, Murco, AMEC, Suncor, Social Obligations Annual Reports (www.ofgem.gov.uk/ CNRL, Talisman and Nexen. WA 355 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 356

UK Petroleum Industry Association, Europia, Renewable The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Energy Association, Downstream Fuel Association, for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor International Association of Oil & Gas Producers, of Holbeach): The (zero cost) variation to the “Climate Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, National change impacts on soil biota—development of experimental Petrochemical and Refiners Association, Canada-Europe methodology” project was to extend its end date to RoundtableforBusiness,CalgaryChamberof Commerce, 31 March 2011. Calgary Economic Development, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers and the Oil Sands Leadership Initiative. Gaza Questions Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, ActionAid, Co-operative Asked by Lord Hylton Group, LUSH cosmetics, Transport and Environment, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they WWF,People and Planet, the UK Tar Sands Network, are providing funds for the Palestinian Trauma the Council of Canadians, Canada West think tank, Centre in Gaza. [HL14291] various representatives of First Nations groups, Pembina NGO and the Calgary University Institute Baroness Northover: The UK does not fund the for Sustainable Energy and Environment and Economy. Palestinian Trauma Centre in Gaza. However, through The extraction of oil from oil sands and the fuel our funding to the Palestinian Authority and the UN quality directive have often been raised by a wide Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), the UK helps range of stakeholders in workshops, meetings, and provide public healthcare to Palestinians in Gaza, conferences that take place both in the UK and abroad. including trauma counselling. 25,000 refugee children It has not been possible to confidently provide details are receiving counselling through UNRWA’spsychosocial of every organisation that could have been at these support services. events in the past. Asked by Lord Hylton Environment: Air Quality To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Question they have made of the extent of post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms amongst children and Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark mothers of young children in Gaza. [HL14292] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the variation agreed in the air quality modelling review. Baroness Northover: The UK has not made a specific [HL14360] assessment of the extent of post-traumatic stress (PTS) in children and mothers of young children The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department living in Gaza. The latest report by the non-governmental for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor organisation Gaza Community Mental Health of Holbeach): All Defra evidence contracts are closely Programme in 2010 found that 57 per cent of children monitored by departmental specialists working with are still reporting moderate reactions to trauma with policy colleagues. Contract variations are required if another 11 per cent reporting severe reactions. It also there are significant changes to any of the details in the showed that PTS among families remains high at original agreement (e.g. costs, required outputs, timetable, 45 per cent and that in addition to children, older research team, etc.). people and people with disabilities were particularly In October 2010 the Defra contract “Air Quality vulnerable to psychiatric problems. A full copy of the Modelling Review” was amended to include £9,750 of report is available at www.gcmhp.net. The UK supports additional work. Further work was required to allow both the Palestinian Authority and the UN Relief and the analysis of additional modelling data submitted to Works Agency to provide healthcare in Gaza, including the department’s modelling intercomparison exercise: psychosocial services. http://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/research/air-quality- modelling?view=intercomparison Government Departments: Procurement This work included the collection, processing and Question statistical analysis of modelling data using specialised software, the production of three reports presenting Asked by Lord Prescott the analysis results, and preparation for and attendance To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the at three meetings held in January 2011. The work (1) date of purchase, (2) amount, (3) supplier and provided a large proportion of the evidence presented (4) level 3 or enhanced transaction entry of each to the steering group which conducted Defra’s air transaction undertaken by the Department for quality modelling review. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs using the Government Procurement Card in (a) 2006–07, (b) 2007– Environment: Soil 08, (c) 2008–09, (d) 2009–10, and (e) 2010–11. Question [HL13956] Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor variation agreed in the project “Climate change of Holbeach):ThisGovernmentarecommittedtotransparency impacts on soil biota—development of experimental about its spending through government procurement methodology”. [HL14397] cards. WA 357 Written Answers[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Answers WA 358

In October we began to publish detailed information To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action on transactions over £500 for 2011-12 for the core they are taking to increase the number of clinical department on our website and will continue to do so nurse specialists for pancreatic cancer. [HL14157] on a monthly basis. The information can be found at: To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps http://data.gov.uk/dataset/defra-qpc-spend-over-500- they are taking to improve the quality of care for pounds pancreatic cancer patients in the United Kingdom. Information on transactions over £500 in core Defra [HL14158] for 2010/11 will be published by the end of March 2012. The work required to obtain, contextualise and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department report data from the previous three years, or for transactions of Health (Earl Howe): We know that England’s cancer under £500, could only be done at disproportionate survival rates are currently poorer than many comparable cost. countries. It is already widely accepted that the main reasons for this are late presentation and patients having more advanced stage at diagnosis. This is why we have prioritised achieving earlier diagnosis in Improving Government Departments: Staff Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer, published on 12 January Question 2011. The strategy sets out an ambition to save an Asked by Baroness Byford additional 5,000 lives every year by 2014-15 through earlier diagnosis of cancer and improved access to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were the screening and radiotherapy. salary band and the employer pension contribution To support the National Health Service to tackle percentage on 1 October 1997 for a teaching assistant; regional variations in cancer survival rates we are and what are the figures now. [HL14378] providing data to providers and commissioners that allow them to benchmark their services and outcomes The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department against one another and to identify where improvements for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): need to be made. Through the national cancer intelligence Teaching assistants are eligible for membership of the network, we have already made available data collections local government pension scheme. Their salary levels on survival rates and surgical resection rates across a are determined by each individual employer. On 1 October range of cancers. In August, we published the Radiotherapy 1997 the employee pension contribution rate was a Dataset First Annual Report to help tackle unwarranted fixed 6 per cent. However, tiered contribution rates are variation in radiotherapy services and from April 2012 now applied to employees in accordance with the salary we are mandating the collection of chemotherapy data bands in the table below: to achieve the same. In the 2010 Cancer Patient Experience Survey 90 per Range (Full time Employee cent of patients with an upper gastrointestinal cancer, Band equivalent) Contribution Rate which includes cancer of the pancreas, reported having a clinical nurse specialist (CNS). The survey also 1 Up to £12,900 15.5% showed that cancer patients who have support from a 2 £12,901 to £15,100 5.8% CNS have an overall better experience of care. We 3 £15,101 to £19,400 5.9% expect the NHS to consider this in developing their 4 £19,401 to £32,400 6.5% policies to improve patient experience. 5 £32,401 to £43,300 6.8% To support the NHS to develop the CNS workforce, 6 £43,301 to £81,100 17.2% the strategy sets out our intention to build the evidence 7 More than £81,100 17.5% base for the benefits and costs savings that CNSs can offer. This follows an independent report we published The rate of each employer’s contribution is assessed in December 2010 that showed that, in many scenarios, every three years as part of the triennial valuation of the costs of additional support roles are likely to be the appropriate local authority pension fund to which outweighed by the savings that can be achieved. they belong. The 2010 survey recorded the views of over 67,000 cancer patients, treated in 158 trusts across England. To incentivise quality improvements in patient treatment, Health: Cancer care and experience, all participating trusts were sent a Questions bespoke report showing their own results. Each report displayed the results for each question in the survey Asked by Lord Aberdare benchmarked against other trusts. These findings are helping the NHS to identify areas in cancer care that To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment need improvement locally and develop services that they have made of the reasons for the comparatively are more responsive to patients’ needs. low pancreatic cancer survival rates in the United We are carrying out a survey for 2011 that will show Kingdom. [HL14155] where improvements have been made and where further To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment action is needed. they have made of the geographical variation in The Minister of State for care services (Paul Burstow) pancreatic cancer survival rates across the United met representatives from Pancreatic Cancer UK on Kingdom. [HL14156] Monday 19 December 2011. WA 359 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 360

Health: Dangerous Pathogens and Clinical Excellence (NICE) technology appraisal Question guidance for the treatment of psoriatic arthritis (August 2010). Asked by Lord Jopling The department has requested that NICE develop a To ask Her Majesty’s Government what, if any, guideline on the management of psoriasis, which is discussions they have had regarding an international due to be completed in 2013. NICE has set out the convention on the safe transportation of pathogens. scope for the guideline, identifying the key clinical [HL14354] issues that will be covered, which includes the management of the psychological impact of psoriasis. The scope Earl Attlee: The Department for Transport does also identifies a number of tools and approaches to be not have any knowledge of an international convention considered in relation to measuring patient outcomes, on the safe transportation of pathogens nor of any including the psoriasis area and severity index and the discussions related to it. However, the safe transport dermatology life quality index. of pathogens classified as infectious substances is addressed in the UN model regulations for the transport Higher Education: Funding of dangerous goods that are transposed into mode Question specific legal transport agreements and thence to UK Asked by Lord Fearn domestic regulations. To ask Her Majesty’s Government to how many Health: Dermatology sixth-form colleges in Merseyside they awarded grants in 2008, 2009 and 2010; and where those Questions colleges are. [HL14240] Asked by Lord Colwyn The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures (Lord Hill of Oareford): This question has been answered they are taking to address the psychological effects in relation to grant funding the Department (and its of psoriasis and other debilitating skin conditions. predecessor) has provided to the sixth-form colleges in [HL14265] question either directly or through the Young People’s To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures Learning Agency (and its predecessor). they are taking to encourage the use of the Psoriasis The following table highlights the 16-19 funding Area and Severity Index and the Dermatology Life allocations to the three sixth-form colleges in Greater Quality Index in the treatment and care of patients Merseyside for the last four academic years (2007/8– with psoriasis. [HL14266] 2010/11). This reflects the grant funding allocated for the colleges to provide education and training for their The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department 16-19 year old students, including funding for 16-19 of Health (Earl Howe): The use of the psoriasis area additional earning support (ALS). The local authorities and severity index in the management of psoriasis is (LA) in which the colleges are located are highlighted already referenced in the National Institute for Health in the table.

Sixth Form College LA 2007/081 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11

KING GEORGE V Sefton £7,659,191 £7,147,528 £7,251,489 £7,410,164 COLLEGE CARMEL COLLEGE St Helens £7,440,687 £7,682,587 £8,024,264 £8,550,376 BIRKENHEAD Wirral £5,591,959 £5,553,617 £5,939,310 £6,017,526 SIXTH FORM COLLEGE

The figures (except where noted) do not include any Agreements with the Homes and Communities Agency, grant funding from other government departments according to registered provider. [HL14189] the colleges may have received for either any adult (19+) education and training they may have provided To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many or any other purpose. homes will be built or procured in each Norfolk local authority area through agreements under section 1 These figures also include ALS funding provided for 19+ learners (ALS allocations were not split between 16-18 and 19+ 106 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 in 2007/08 and therefore the figures stated are for all ages for this for 2011–14, according to registered provider. year). 19+ ALS is funded by the Department for Business, [HL14190] Innovation and Skills. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what will be Housing the average grant per home that will be provided Questions by the Homes and Communities Agency for new affordable housing supply in each Norfolk local Asked by Baroness Hollis of Heigham authority area for 2011–14, excluding any impact To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many on that average of homes provided through agreements homes will be built in each Norfolk local authority under section 106 of the Town and Country Planning area under the 2011–14 Framework Development Act 1990. [HL14191] WA 361 Written Answers[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Answers WA 362

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department affordable homes being delivered within the affordable for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): homes programme through Section 106 agreements. The Homes and Communities Agency has not yet The table shows the number of Section 106 units completed framework delivery agreements with all registered currently agreed for each provider. The funding per providers for delivery through the affordable homes unit information shown is the total funding for the programme so total allocations may increase once all provider in Norfolk divided by the total number of agreements are completed. Details about homes to be units, which includes those delivered on Section 106 delivered and funded through the affordable homes sites. Funding allocations are made on an area basis, programme by local authority area are not yet available. including both firm and indicative proposals. This The table below lists all providers who have agreed means that, at this stage, the Homes and Communities final contractual offers with the Homes and Communities Agency is unable to separately identify funding allocated Agency for delivery of affordable homes in the Norfolk to Section 106 schemes from funding allocated to area which includes Breckland, Broadland, Great Yarmouth, other sites and are therefore unable to fully exclude Kings Lynn and West Norfolk, North Norfolk, Norwich any impact of Section 106 agreements from a funding and South Norfolk. per unit calculation. The final column of the table The department does not collect information on shows funding per unit once Section 106 schemes future Section 106 agreements. The Homes and without grant assistance have been removed from the Communities Agency does collect information on calculation.

Of which, total Funding per unit homes delivered Funding per unit excluding nil grant Lead Provider HCA funding (£m) Total homes through s106 (£k) s.106

Circle Anglia Limited 4.5 280 30 16.2 18.1 Hastoe Housing 0.9 46 11 20.9 27.4 Association Ltd Kier Partnership 03737£00 Homes Ltd* Orbit Group Limited 4.0 217 98 18.4 33.5 Orwell Housing 4.7 312 57 £14.9 18.3 Association Ltd Persimmon Homes 0.4 50 15 £8.2 11.6 Limited * The Places for People 0 26 0 £0 0 Group Ltd Grand Total 14.5 968 248 £15.0 20.3

Source: Homes and Communities Agency Investment of private sector homes. In 2010-11 for example a total Management System of 176 additional social rented homes were delivered *not registered providers in Sefton. Asked by Lord Fearn These figures are derived from data held by the department on delivery of additional affordable homes, To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many as published in the Affordable Housing Supply Statistical affordable houses were built for rent in Southport Release at http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ during 2008, 2009 and 2010. [HL14238] corporate/statistics/affordablehousing201011

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Inquiries: Northern Ireland for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): Question Data are not collected for individual towns but information Asked by Lord Empey is available for local authority districts by financial years. The number of new homes built for social rent in To ask Her Majesty’s Government under what the borough of Sefton in 2008-9, 2009-10 and 2010-11 legislation the inquiries into the deaths of Billy are shown in the table below. Wright, Rosemary Nelson and Robert Hamill were conducted; and what were the costs of each of Number of newly built homes for social rent in Sefton those inquiries. [HL14274] 2008-09 69 2009-10 87 Lord Shutt of Greetland: The Billy Wright inquiry 2010-11 166 was established under the Prison (Northern Ireland) Source: DCLG additional affordable housing supply statistics Act 1953 and converted to an inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005 in November 2005. It published its report in September 2010 and cost a total of £30.5 million. The Not all social rented housing is delivered through Rosemary Nelson inquiry was held under the Police new build completions; additional affordable supply (Northern Ireland) Act 1998. It published its report in can also come from the acquisition and refurbishment May 2011 and cost £46.5 million. The Robert Hamill WA 363 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 364 inquiry was established under the Police (Northern 29 November, the UK has downgraded diplomatic Ireland) Act 1998 and converted to an inquiry under relations with Iran. However, we will maintain our the Inquiries Act 2005 in March 2006. It closed in firm stance on human rights, holding the Iranian February 2011 and cost £33.0 million. Its report has authorities to account for any abuses, including the not yet been published due to related ongoing legal persecution of religious minorities such as the Baha’is. proceedings in connection with the murder of Robert With our international partners and the UN, we also Hamill. Detailed costs relating to the Bloody Sunday, continue to monitor closely the situation at Camp Billy Wright and Rosemary Nelson inquiries, broken Ashraf. We urge all sides to reach a peaceful, negotiated down by year, are available on the Northern Ireland solution to the future of the residents of the camp. We Office website: www.nio.gov.uk. urge the leadership of the camp to engage with the UN and the Government of Iraq, and for the Government of Iraq to respect the human rights of the residents, and to show flexibility over its deadline to close Camp Ashraf by the end of the year. International Development Question Asked by Lord Judd Metal To ask Her Majesty’s Government, taking into Question account the 2005 Paris Declaration, what were the Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark outcomes of the recent High Level Forum on Aid in Busan, South Korea; and what action they are To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the taking to achieve the targets agreed. [HL14166] variation agreed in the heavy metal deposition mapping project. [HL14359]

Baroness Northover: The three main UK priorities of results, transparency and fragility are now enshrined The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department in the Busan outcome document which can be found for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor here: http://www.aideffectiveness.org/busanhlf4/en/ of Holbeach): All evidence contracts are closely monitored component/content/article/698.html Further to this, by Defra specialists working with policy colleagues. the UK played a central role in developing an inclusive Contract variations are required if there are significant outcome document that could be supported by emerging changes to any of the details in the original agreement economies including China and Brazil. (e.g. costs, required outputs, timetable, research team, etc). In August 2011 the Defra contract “Heavy Metal I have outlined in more detail the outcomes of Deposition Mapping”was amended to include £159,698 Busan in my Written Ministerial Statement, 7 December of additional work and to extend the contract in time 2011, Official Report, column 30WS. to March 2012.

Migration Iran: Camp Ashraf Question Question Asked by Viscount Waverley Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they have undertaken a comparative study of United intend to promote international scrutiny of Iran’s Kingdom net migration figures and those of other human rights record, with particular reference to individual European Union member states; and, if the situation of refugees in Camp Ashraf and the so, what were the findings. [HL14183] Baha’i community in Iran. [HL14080]

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth The latest comparative international net migration Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The UK is committed statistics are published by Eurostat and relate to 2010. to promoting international scrutiny of Iran’s human The following table shows that in 2010 net migration rights record, including through the United Nations was 2.6 per thousand inhabitants for the UK, the 8th (UN) and other international fora. We particularly highest net migration figure among EU 27 nations welcome the recent decision of the UN General Assembly relative to the size of the population. to pass a resolution expressing deep concern at Iran’s Crude rates of population change, 2008-2010 (per human rights record and calling for the Iranian authorities 100 inhabitants) Source: Eurostat (Population Change to take urgent action. The resolution passed with a and Population Change Statistics, available from the high level of support, demonstrating deepening EU’s website: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_ international concern at Iran’s human rights record. explained/index.php/Population_and_population_ Following the storming of our embassy in Tehran on change_statisticsdemo_gind) WA 365 Written Answers[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Answers WA 366

Crude rates of population change, 2008-2010 (per 1 000 inhabitants) Total change Natural change Net migration and statistical adjustment 2008 2009 2010 2008 2009 2010 2008 2009 2010

European Union 4.0 2.8 2.8 1.2 1.0 1.0 2.9 1.8 1.8 (27) Belgium 8.0 8.0 10.3 2.2 2.1 2.1 5.9 5.9 8.2 Bulgaria -4.4 -5.6 -7.8 -4.3 -3.6 -4.6 -0.1 -2.1 -3.2 Czech Republic 8.3 3.7 2.5 1.4 1.0 1.0 6.9 2.7 1.5 Denmark 6.5 4.2 4.7 1.9 1.4 1.6 4.6 2.8 3.0 Germany -2.6 -2.4 -0.6 -2.0 -2.3 -2.2 -0.7 -0.1 1.6 Estonia -0.4 -0.2 0.0 -0.5 -0.2 0.0 0.1 0.0 0.0 Ireland 11.0 4.0 2.9 10.3 10.2 10.4 0.7 -6.2 -7.5 Greece 4.1 4.0 1.8 0.9 0.9 0.3 3.2 3.1 1.5 Spain 12.0 3.5 3.6 2.9 2.4 2.3 9.0 1.1 1.3 France 5.6 5.4 5.5 4.5 4.3 4.4 1.2 1.1 1.2 Italy 7.1 4.9 4.7 0.0 -0.4 -0.4 7.1 5.3 5.2 Cyprus 9.6 7.8 1.6 5.1 5.5 5.7 4.5 2.3 -4.1 Latvia -4.2 -5.7 -8.4 -3.1 -3.6 -4.8 -1.1 -2.1 -3.5 Lithuania -4.9 -6.2 -25.7 -2.6 -1.6 -2.0 -2.3 -4.6 -23.7 Luxembourg 19.9 17.2 19.3 4.1 4.0 4.2 15.8 13.2 15.1 Hungary -1.4 -1.7 -2.9 -3.1 -3.4 -4.0 1.6 1.7 1.2 Malta 8.1 1.8 7.8 2.1 2.2 2.4 5.9 -0.4 5.4 Netherlands 4.9 5.4 4.9 3.0 3.1 2.9 1.9 2.3 2.0 Austria 4.4 2.4 3.5 0.3 -0.1 0.2 4.1 2.5 3.3 Poland 0.5 0.8 0.9 0.9 0.9 0.9 -0.4 0.0 -0.1 Portugal 0.9 1.0 -0.1 0.0 -0.5 -0.4 0.9 1.4 0.4 Romania -1.4 -1.7 -2.3 -1.5 -1.6 -2.2 0.1 -0.1 0.0 Slovenia 10.9 (b) 7.2 1.6 1.7 (b) 1.5 1.8 9.2 (b) 5.6 -0.3 Slovakia 2.1 2.3 1.9 0.8 1.5 1.3 1.3 0.8 0.6 Finland 4.9 4.7 4.4 2.0 2.0 1.9 2.9 2.7 2.6 Sweden 8.0 9.1 8.0 1.9 2.3 2.7 6.0 6.7 5.3 United Kingdom 6.6 7.0 6.6 3.5 3.7 3.9 3.1 3.3 2.6

(b) break in series Northern Ireland Office: Consultants Source: Eurostat (Population Change and Population Change Questions Statistics, available from the EU’s website Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Shutt of Greetland on 6 December (WA 148), concerning consultants employed by the Northern Ireland Office, who else NHS: Foundation Trusts applied for the contract and who made the selection. Question [HL14217] Asked by Lord Warner To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the average length of time taken for an NHS trust application for Foundation Trust status to (1) reach Lord Shutt of Greetland: Five applications were Monitor, and (2) be decided. [HL14245] received for this contract from the following companies: BDO Kappa Consulting Deloitte MCS Ltd FGS McClure Watters The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department FPM Chartered Accountants of Health (Earl Howe): Up to the end of November 2011, the last 10 National Health Service foundation KPMG trust applications referred to the Monitor assessment The tendering process adhered to government stage by the department, have taken an average of procurement guidelines and was facilitated by the three and a half months, the shortest time taking two Central Procurement Directorate (CPD), a division of months and the longest six months. On average, Monitor’s the Department of Finance and Personnel Northern assessment stage takes five and a half months to complete, Ireland. An evaluation panel, established by the Northern the shortest time taking three months and the longest Ireland Office and supported by a representative of 10 months. CPD, made the selection. WA 367 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 368

Asked by Lord Laird business. Any such payments must be authorised by the appropriate line manager. There are no plans to To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to change this policy. the Written Answer by Lord Shutt of Greetland on 6 December (WA148) concerning consultants employed by the Northern Ireland Office to carry out an Northern Ireland: Human Rights economic appraisal into the uses of Hillsborough Commission Castle, whether they will place a copy of the tender Question document in the Library of the House. [HL14236] Asked by Lord Laird Lord Shutt of Greetland: I am unable to place a To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to copy of the consultant’s tender document in the Library the Written Answer by Lord Shutt of Greetland on as this is a commercially sensitive document. 12 December (WA220) stating that “the Government remains clear that reaching agreement within Northern Ireland is essential to further progress on rights Northern Ireland Office: Staff issues”, what is the desired progress to which he Questions referred. [HL14345] Asked by Lord Laird Lord Shutt of Greetland: The Government are clear To ask Her Majesty’s Government what savings that, if the work of the Commission on a UK Bill of were made by the Northern Ireland Office during Rights results in legislation, then this would provide a 2010–11; and what reduction in staff was involved, vehicle in which to implement rights specific to Northern if any. [HL14193] Ireland. However, as the answer of 12 December makes clear, there needs to be agreement within Northern Ireland on such rights. Lord Shutt of Greetland: 2010-11 was the first year that the Northern Ireland Office was in operation in its current form. It is not, therefore, possible to provide Northern Ireland: Security Restrictions comparative costs for previous years. However, during Question 2010-11, the department did secure savings in a number of keys areas including travel costs, IT costs and other Asked by Lord Laird administrative costs. The department keeps staffing levels under regular review and vacancies are only To ask Her Majesty’s Government who is filled when there is judged to remain a business need responsible for security restrictions in lower Chichester to do so. Street, Belfast, which prevent its use by buses and cars; what security criteria were used for the decision Asked by Lord Laird to re-impose the restrictions; who made the decision; and why the roads at the side and back of the courts To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they complex are not also closed. [HL14285] intend to review any extra payments and bonuses to be paid to staff of the Northern Ireland Office; and, if so, when, how, and by whom the review will Lord Shutt of Greetland: The decision to close be conducted. [HL14346] Lower Chichester Street was made in April 2010 by the then Minister of State in the Northern Ireland Office. Lord Shutt of Greetland: Northern Ireland Office The decision was reviewed by the current Minister staff are paid in line with Ministry of Justice terms of State in September 2011. and conditions—this includes the recognition and reward scheme. We are not aware of any plans to review this scheme. Overseas Aid Questions Northern Ireland Office: Taxis and Cars Asked by Lord Boswell of Aynho Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they Asked by Lord Laird plan to work with other agencies and donors to ensure sufficient finance to enable disabled children To ask Her Majesty’s Government, as part of the to access education under the Millennium Development cuts due to the Northern Ireland Office’s budget Goal 2. [HL14044] over the next two years, whether the arrangement for the provision of taxis and cars for staff will be Baroness Northover: The Department for International resumed; and, if so, how, when, and by whom. Development’s (DFID) education investments will reach [HL14344] all children including those with a disability through our support to multilateral, international and non- Lord Shutt of Greetland: Northern Ireland Office governmental organisations. For example, in Malawi, staff may only claim the costs of taxis and/or cars in DFID has contributed to approximately 700,000 children respect of journeys made for the purposes of official with disabilities entering education. Through DFID WA 369 Written Answers[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Answers WA 370 support 4,200 classrooms have been constructed and European Commission and other organisations; and 70 per cent of these have ramp access. In addition support to civil society provided through the global DFID supports over 85 disabled peoples’ organisations poverty action fund, strategic programme partnership and civil society organisations to address the issues agreements with organisations such as Action for facing people with disabilities in poor countries. Disability and Development, Sightsavers, and Comic The UK has publicly committed to support at least Relief. In addition DFID provides support to the 9 million children in primary school and 2 million Disability Rights Fund which supports disabled people’s children in secondary school by 2015. In addition, organisations in the global south to take the lead in through the recently launched new girls’ education advocating for the human rights of people with disabilities challenge programme, we will work with charities and in line with the UN Convention for the Rights of businesses to find new and effective ways to educate People with Disabilities. Examples of DFID programmes up to 1 million of the world’s most marginalised girls supporting people with disabilities include in India, which will include those with disabilities. Further details where the Government of India’s Education for All can be found on DFID’s website at www.dfid.gov.uk programme has increased the number of children with disabilities who attend school. A total of 3.04 million Asked by Lord Boswell of Aynho children have been identified with special needs, of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps whom over 90 per cent are now in school. Home-based they are taking to ensure that teacher training schooling is being provided for children with severe delivered under their commitments to international disabilities. development contributes to opportunities for children Asked by with disabilities to access quality education. Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead [HL14045] To ask Her Majesty’s Government which budget lines are likely to be affected by the proposed reduction Baroness Northover: The UK Government’s pledge in overseas development aid. [HL14107] to train 190,000 teachers by 2014 will be delivered through multilateral organisations. The Department for International Development (DFID) also provides Baroness Northover: At this stage, our planning support to international non-governmental organisations, assumption is that we should still be able to deliver the for example, the United Nations (UN), Save the Children, set of results agreed in the bilateral aid review, multilateral Plan International and World Vision, for programmes aid review, humanitarian emergency response review that have a child-rights’ focus and work with vulnerable and related processes. We had held back some resources children in developing countries to deliver programmes at the centre to achieve additional results which provides to help children with disabilities to access education; us with some flexibility to handle the reduction announced to reduce exclusion and inequality; and, ultimately, in the autumn statement. We shall look further at this poverty among vulnerable groups. DFID expects as part of the normal planning process in the first multilateral organisations to adhere to the UN Convention quarter of 2012. on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in their operations. Asked by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead In addition, DFID is supporting teacher training through our bilateral education programme, as published To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether in the operational plans of DFID country offices. In Department for International Development bilateral 2010, the department issued a guidance note entitled funding for country programmes will be reduced. Education for Children with Disabilities—Improving [HL14108] Access and Quality, which emphasises the importance of complying with the UN convention, and utilising inclusive methodologies in teaching to ensure quality Baroness Northover: While this adjustment will and inclusiveness in education. obviously mean that we will not be able to do everything we had hoped, Britain will still be doing more than Asked by Lord Boswell of Aynho ever before to tackle poverty and save lives around the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps world. The Department for International Development they are taking to encourage and monitor the will work even harder to ensure that measures announced involvement of disabled people in developing countries in the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s Autumn Statement in the design of aid programmes directed towards does not significantly threaten results on the ground in their welfare. [HL14046] developing countries, redoubling our efforts on value for money. Baroness Northover: The coalition Government are committed to the inclusion of disabled people in development. The extent to which UK aid can help to improve the welfare and lives of disadvantaged groups, Parking: Evenings and Weekends such as people with disabilities, forms an important Question part of programme design and country assistance Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark plans. The Department for International Development To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment (DFID) supports disabled people in a variety of means they have made, in the light of the Portas Review, of including through: DFID country programmes; the proposals by Westminster City Council to levy multilateral support provided through United Nations, parking charges at evenings and weekends.[HL14296] WA 371 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 372

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): The Government have been clear that we welcome I refer the noble Lord to the answer given by my independent candidates in police and crime commissioner honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary elections. The Government will ensure that members of State for Communities and Local Government (Bob of the public have the information they need to be able Neill) to a similar question about Westminster parking to decide whether to put themselves forward for election. charges posed by the honourable Member for Westminster On 21 November my right honourable friend the North on 7 December 2011, Official Report, Column 342W. Minister for policing and criminal justice issued a The Government expect to respond to the Portas clarion call for candidates of all types and all backgrounds. review in the spring. He also launched the Government’s engagement programme including a website containing all the key Patrick Finucane information and a booklet setting out why people Questions should stand to be a police and crime commissioner. The Government will continue to talk to experts from Asked by Lord Empey policing, local government and academia about the To ask Her Majesty’s Government under what best way to ensure that this information reaches those legislation the previously proposed inquiry into the who need it. In addition, officials will hold a series of death of Patrick Finucane was intended to be engagement events across England and Wales in January, conducted. [HL14275] February and March to reinforce these messages. Lord Shutt of Greetland: The previous Administration proposed to establish an inquiry into the death of Police: Pursuits Patrick Finucane under the Inquiries Act 2005. Question Asked by Lord Laird Asked by Lord Condon To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many the Written Answer by Lord Shutt of Greetland on police officers in Kent Police and Sussex Police have 8 December (WA 198), whether they have made been granted permission to have paid employment payments to Madden and Finucane Solicitors of or business interests outside of policing in 2011; any sort in relation to the death of Patrick Finucane; and whether this is an increase on the figures for and, if so, what amount they have paid in the past 2010. [HL14057] five years. [HL14282] Lord Shutt of Greetland: No payments have been The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): made to Madden and Finucane Solicitors in relation The Home Office does not collect this information. to the death of Patrick Finucane over the past five years. Prisoners: Voting Pensions Questions Question Asked by Lord Laird Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have discussed with the governments of France, To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Germany and Spain the practical arrangements for the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 11 August prisoner voting. [HL14286] (WA 429–30), whether the Transport for London (TfL) Pension Fund is one of the entities reporting to HM Treasury in order to produce the consolidated The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Whole of Government Accounts; and, if so, what is McNally): We received information from the Governments TfL’s prospective pension payments liability. of France, Germany and Spain for the purposes [HL14152] of compiling an information note on European disfranchisement regimes, which is available in the The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord libraries of both Houses and can be downloaded from Sassoon): The Transport for London Pension Fund is the following address: not one of the entities reporting to HM Treasury for www.parliament.uk/deposits/depositedpapers/ the consolidated whole of government accounts. Its 2011/DEP2011-0663.doc pension liability is included in the accounts of Transport Officials met with representatives of the German for London which is consolidated in the whole of embassy in the UK on 16 March 2011 to discuss the government accounts. issue of prisoner voting rights in the context of a broader discussion on human rights and reform of the Police and Crime Commissioners European Court of Human Rights. Question Asked by Lord Laird Asked by Lord Condon To ask Her Majesty’s Government what has To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans been the cost to date of their work on implementing they have to encourage independent candidates to the judgment of the European Court of Human stand for election as Police and Crime Commissioners Rights in the case of Hirst (No. 2) v United Kingdom in November 2012. [HL14056] on voting rights for prisoners. [HL14287] WA 373 Written Answers[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Answers WA 374

Lord McNally: There are costs associated with the Second World War: Debts maintenance and implementation of policy in relation Question to prisoner voting rights. At this stage, it is not possible to separate these costs from the Government’s work Asked by Lord Laird responding to specific court judgments and general policy maintenance on wider franchise issues. The To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Government are awaiting final judgment in the Scoppola the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 15 November case on this issue from the European Court of Human (WA 141–2) concerning debts associated with the Rights and will announce their next steps in due Second World War, with what countries was a course. settlement made; what was the settlement; and when and how was it agreed. [HL14221] Railways: Stations Question The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Asked by Lord Wigley Sassoon): Details of debts associated with the Second World War owing by or owed to the United Kingdom To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much are provided in the Finance Accounts of the United has been spent on the upgrading of railway stations Kingdom and, their successor, the Supplementary in each of the past three years. [HL14325] Statements to the Consolidated Fund and National Loans Fund Accounts for the financial years 1945-46 Earl Attlee: The following table sets out expenditure to 1987-88, and the following Command Papers: (in millions) on specific programmes for the upgrading of railway stations in each of the past three financial China CM 198; years: Czechoslovakia Cmd 7798 and Cmnds 55, 56 and 2280; France Cmnd 6988; 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11 Netherlands Cmd 7358; National Stations £33.2 £37.0 Poland Cmd 6864 and 7148 and Cmnd 1057; Improvement Programme * Turkey Cmds 6165 and 9120; and Access for All ** £53.2 £90.0 £102.0 USSR Cmd 7297. King’s Cross £115.1 £98.5 £106.4 Birmingham New Street £100.0 £33.2 £44.9 The further information requested could only be Reading £11.0 £31.0 £59.0 obtained at a disproportionate cost. * covers England and Wales and includes third party funding ** covers England, Scotland and Wales

In addition to the above expenditure, Network Rail Somalia and the train operators will have invested in station Question upgrades as part of ongoing renewals work and as Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool part of franchise agreements. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Schools: Milk they have made of the effects of Al-Shabab’s recent Question disruption of the work of non-governmental organisations and United Nations agencies in southern Asked by Lord Storey Somalia on humanitarian relief work and the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many alleviation of famine in the Horn of Africa. local authorities in 2010–11 and 2011–12 have offered [HL14200] their school children (1) “dental milk”, and (2) ordinary milk. [HL14181] Baroness Northover: The decision by al-Shabaab to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for ban 16 United Nations (UN) agencies and non- Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): Schools and local governmental organisations operating in south Somalia authorities (LAs) decide whether or not to provide will further compromise the delivery of humanitarian milk to their pupils. The Government do not collect assistance. The UN is urgently assessing the impact of information about the number of LAs which choose this decision and working up options for maintaining to do so, nor the type of milk provided. the delivery of life-saving assistance. Where LAs and schools decide to provide milk, Overall, the situation remains confused. A number they can also choose to participate in the EU school of the affected agencies are continuing to provide milk subsidy scheme. This scheme reduces the cost of services through Somali partner organisations. But milk to parents and is operated by the Rural Payments preliminary analysis suggests that an absolute enforcement Agency (RPA) on behalf of Defra. of the ban will mean 600,000 fewer people receive According to the RPA, 92 English LAs provide food assistance in December as compared to October. milk to their pupils under the subsidy scheme. Other Significant reductions in beneficiary caseloads for LAs may provide milk but choose not to participate in nutrition, health and water and sanitation are also the scheme. Ten of the 92 LAs are known to provide anticipated. We are considering the implications of milk fortified with fluoride (dental milk). the UN’s assessment for UK programming. WA 375 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 376

Stateless People To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the Questions yield of income tax for the year 2010–11; and what it would have been if (1) an allowance had been Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill made at one per cent per child or dependant, or To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many (2) all sources of income around the world qualified stateless persons are currently residing in the United for income tax, and assuming that all other allowances Kingdom. [HL14227] were discontinued. [HL14148] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they identify stateless persons residing in the United Kingdom. [HL14228] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): Income tax receipts in 2010-11 were Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The information requested £153.5 billion. falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Estimated changes in income tax liabilities, compared Authority. I have asked the Authority to reply. with those arising under the actual 2010-11 income Letter from Stephen Penneck, Director General for tax system, are set out in the table below, assuming: Office for National Statistics, to Lord Lester, dated (a) those earning under £15,000 paid no income tax; December 2011 (b) those earning £15,000 to £30,000 paid 10 per cent; As Director General for the Office for National (c) those earning £30,000 to £60,000 paid 15 per cent; Statistics, I have been asked to reply to you Parliamentary (d) those earning £60,000 to £120,000 paid 20 per cent; Questions asking; and (e) those earning £120,000 and over paid 30 per How stateless persons residing in the United Kingdom cent. are identified (14228) The estimated changes assume that the specified How many stateless persons are currently residing tax rates of the hypothetical 2010-11 tax system applied in the United Kingdom (14227) to the total of income assessable for tax for all individuals The Office for National Statistics does not have the within each band, i.e. represent average rates of tax; information necessary to identify or make an estimate and that no allowances, deductions or income tax of the number of stateless people in the UK. reliefs applied. A joint research report on Mapping Statelessness in the United Kingdom has been produced by the Asylum Estimated change in income tax Aid and UN High Commission for Refugees. UN Taxpayer gross income band liabilities £ billion High Commissioner for Refugees, Mapping Statelessness Under £15,000 -7.1 in The United Kingdom, 22 November 2011, available £15,000 to £29,999 -6.9 at: http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/4ecb6a192.html £30,000 to £59,999 -1 .5 £60,000 to £119,999 -4.2 £120,000 and over -8.7 Taxation Total -28.4 Questions Asked by Lord Baker of Dorking To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the These estimates take no account of behavioural yield of income tax for the year 2010–11; and what responses to changes in tax rates and thresholds and it would have been if those earning under £15,000 withdrawal of allowances and reliefs. Behavioural effects paid nothing and assuming that all other allowances would be substantial for changes of this nature and were discontinued. [HL14143] magnitude. However, estimates of the behavioural To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the responses are not available. yield of income tax for the year 2010–11; and what These estimates are based on the 2007-08 survey of it would have been if those earning £15,000 to personal incomes projected to 2010-11 in line with the £30,000 paid 10 per cent and assuming that all Office for Budget Responsibility’s November 2011 other allowances were discontinued. [HL14144] Economic and Fiscal Outlook. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the In addition, it is estimated that tax liabilities under yield of income tax for the year 2010–11; and what the specified 2010-11 income tax system would fall by it would have been if those earning £30,000 to a further f4.5 billion if allowances were introduced in £60,000 paid 15 per cent and assuming that all the form of a one percentage point reduction in tax other allowances were discontinued. [HL14145] rates per child for taxpayers with children. This estimate To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the is informed by Family Resources Survey data projected yield of income tax for the year 2010–11; and what to 2010-11. it would have been if those earning £60,000 to It is not possible to provide an estimate of the tax £120,000 paid 20 per cent and assuming that all yield which would arise if the total worldwide income other allowances were discontinued. [HL14146] of all taxpayers were liable to tax in the UK as Her To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the Majesty’s Revenue & Customs does not hold data on yield of income tax for the year 2010–11; and what the amount of foreign income held by those taxpayers it would have been if those earning £120,000 and who are not liable to UK tax on it. However, all UK over paid 30 per cent and assuming that all other resident and domiciled taxpayers are liable to UK tax allowances were discontinued. [HL14147] on their worldwide income and so the tax paid on their WA 377 Written Answers[20 DECEMBER 2011] Written Answers WA 378 foreign income is already included in the existing Unemployment income tax yield after various tax treaty arrangements Question for tax paid overseas. It is not possible to quantify the change in UK Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool receipts if there were no allowances for foreign tax and To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many no tax treaties. young people are not in employment, education or training in the north west of England; and how this compares with other regions of the United Kingdom. Telephone Hacking: Investigators [HL14105] Question The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Asked by Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): Table 1 below provides estimates of the number and To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light proportion of people aged1 16 to 24 not in education, of the phone hacking investigations and the employment or training (NEET) in each region of involvement of private investigators employed by England in Quarter 3 2011. These estimates are from the media, what plans they have to license such the Labour Force Survey and are published in supplementary investigators. [HL14063] tables to the Department for Educations NEET Quarterly Brief which can be found at: http://www.education.gov.uk/ The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): rsgateway/DB/STR/d001040/index.shtml There is no current licensing regime for private Due to differences in the way separate UK countries investigators. The Private Security Industry Act 2001 define and measure the number of people not in contains provisions for the regulation by the Security education, employment and training we are unable to Industry Authority (SIA) of individuals conducting produce an estimate for the UK as a whole. Estimates private investigations. We are currently considering for other countries in the UK are a devolved issue. whether these provisions should be brought into force. Table 1: People aged 16-24 not in education, employment or training The Government announced in October 2010 that (NEET) in Q3 2011 there will be a phased transition from the SIA to a new independent regulatory regime for the private security Confidence industry, which will place a greater focus on licensing Number Percentage Interval businesses. Any regulation of private investigators which England 1,163,000 19.2% +/- 0.9 pp is brought into force before then will be included in the North East 70,000 21.2% +/- 3.9 pp transition to the new regime. North West 204,000 23.9% +/- 2.4 pp Yo rk s & 157,000 22.7% +/- 2.7 pp Humber Transport: Heavy Goods Vehicles East 81,000 14.9% +/- 2.6 pp Question Midlands West 136,000 21.2% +/- 2.7 pp Asked by Lord Berkeley Midlands East of 115,000 18.9% +/- 2.6 pp To ask Her Majesty’s Government what would England be the percentage increase in carbon dioxide emissions London 159,000 17.9% +/- 2.4 pp by articulated heavy goods vehicles and rigid heavy South-East 159,000 17.1% +/- 2.1 pp goods vehicles on single carriageway roads if their South-West 82,000 14.0% +/- 2.6 pp maximum speed limits were to be increased from 1 Age used is academic age, which is defined as the respondents 40 miles per hour to 50 miles per hour. [HL14027] age as at the preceding 31 August Please note that these estimates are subject to large Earl Attlee: The Logistics Growth Review—Connecting sampling variability and should therefore be treated People with Goods published in November announced with caution and viewed in conjunction with their our intention to consult on the speed limit for HGVs Confidence Intervals2 (CIs), which indicate how accurate over 7.5 tonnes on single carriageway roads next year. an estimate is. For example, a CI of +/-3.9 percentage The consultation will include an impact assessment points (pp) means that the true value is between 3.9pp covering environmental as well as other issues. above the estimate and 3.9pp below the estimate.

Tuesday 20 December 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Interim Covenant Annual Report ...... 185 Pensions: Civil Service Pensions...... 195

ECOFIN...... 187 Pensions: Local Government Pension Scheme ...... 197

Education: Early Years Foundation Stage...... 188 Pensions: NHS Pension Scheme...... 198

Environment: Canal and River Trust ...... 189 Pensions: Teachers’ Pension Scheme...... 200

EU: Foreign Affairs Council Trade Session ...... 190 Police: Review of Public Order Policing...... 201

EU: Telecoms Council ...... 192 Shipping: Emergency Towing Vessels...... 202

Health: Public Health System ...... 194 Skills Funding Agency...... 203

Tuesday 20 December 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Aerospace ...... 341 Energy: Green Deal ...... 351

Agriculture: Dairy Farms ...... 341 Energy: Meters ...... 351

Agriculture: Pig and Poultry Products ...... 342 Energy: Oil Sands ...... 354

Apprenticeships ...... 342 Environment: Air Quality ...... 355

Armed Forces: Bahrain...... 344 Environment: Soil ...... 355

Autumn Statement...... 344 Gaza ...... 356

Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland...... 345 Government Departments: Procurement ...... 356

BBC: World Service Trust...... 345 Government Departments: Staff...... 357

British Embassies...... 346 Health: Cancer...... 357

Businesses: Renovation Allowance...... 346 Health: Dangerous Pathogens...... 359

Climate Change ...... 346 Health: Dermatology...... 359

Consumer Credit Act 2006 ...... 347 Higher Education: Funding ...... 360

Corporate Governance ...... 347 Housing ...... 359

Crime: Rioting...... 348 Inquiries: Northern Ireland...... 362

Criminal Records...... 348 International Development...... 363

Debt: Pawnbrokers ...... 349 Iran: Camp Ashraf...... 363

Elderly People: Benefits ...... 349 Metal ...... 364

Elections: Voting System...... 349 Migration...... 364

Employment Tribunals...... 350 NHS: Foundation Trusts...... 365

Energy: Carbon Emissions...... 350 Northern Ireland: Human Rights Commission...... 368

Energy: Fuel Rebates ...... 350 Northern Ireland Office: Consultants ...... 366 Col. No. Col. No. Northern Ireland Office: Staff...... 367 Prisoners: Voting...... 372

Northern Ireland Office: Taxis and Cars...... 367 Railways: Stations...... 373

Northern Ireland: Security Restrictions ...... 368 Schools: Milk...... 373 Second World War: Debts...... 374 Overseas Aid...... 368 Somalia...... 374 Parking: Evenings and Weekends...... 370 Stateless People...... 375 Patrick Finucane...... 371 Taxation...... 375 Pensions...... 371 Telephone Hacking: Investigators...... 377

Police and Crime Commissioners...... 371 Transport: Heavy Goods Vehicles...... 377

Police: Pursuits ...... 372 Unemployment ...... 378 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL13899]...... 350 [HL14157]...... 358

[HL13956]...... 356 [HL14158]...... 358

[HL14027]...... 377 [HL14166]...... 363

[HL14044]...... 368 [HL14173]...... 349

[HL14045]...... 369 [HL14175]...... 348

[HL14046]...... 369 [HL14176]...... 348

[HL14056]...... 371 [HL14179]...... 348

[HL14057]...... 372 [HL14180]...... 346

[HL14063]...... 377 [HL14181]...... 373

[HL14080]...... 363 [HL14183]...... 364

[HL14085]...... 346 [HL14189]...... 360

[HL14105]...... 378 [HL14190]...... 360

[HL14107]...... 370 [HL14191]...... 360

[HL14108]...... 370 [HL14193]...... 367

[HL14110]...... 346 [HL14200]...... 374

[HL14115]...... 345 [HL14206]...... 341

[HL14143]...... 375 [HL14217]...... 366

[HL14144]...... 375 [HL14219]...... 344

[HL14145]...... 375 [HL14221]...... 374

[HL14146]...... 375 [HL14227]...... 375

[HL14147]...... 375 [HL14228]...... 375

[HL14148]...... 376 [HL14236]...... 367

[HL14152]...... 371 [HL14238]...... 361

[HL14153]...... 342 [HL14240]...... 360

[HL14155]...... 357 [HL14243]...... 350

[HL14156]...... 357 [HL14245]...... 365 Col. No. Col. No. [HL14249]...... 347 [HL14295]...... 347

[HL14251]...... 349 [HL14296]...... 370

[HL14253]...... 350 [HL14297]...... 349

[HL14254]...... 342 [HL14299]...... 351

[HL14255]...... 343 [HL14300]...... 351

[HL14256]...... 344 [HL14303]...... 344

[HL14257]...... 341 [HL14316]...... 345 [HL14325]...... 373 [HL14265]...... 359 [HL14337]...... 351 [HL14266]...... 359 [HL14338]...... 352 [HL14274]...... 362 [HL14339]...... 353 [HL14275]...... 371 [HL14344]...... 367 [HL14282]...... 371 [HL14345]...... 368 [HL14285]...... 368 [HL14346]...... 367 [HL14286]...... 372 [HL14354]...... 359 [HL14287]...... 372 [HL14359]...... 364

[HL14291]...... 356 [HL14360]...... 355

[HL14292]...... 356 [HL14378]...... 357

[HL14293]...... 354 [HL14397]...... 355 Volume 733 Tuesday No. 244 20 December 2011

CONTENTS

Tuesday 20 December 2011 Questions Economy: Private Capital Investment ...... 1661 Justice: Personal Injury Cases...... 1663 Cyprus: EU Presidency...... 1665 Bovine Tuberculosis...... 1668 Procedure of the House Motion to Agree ...... 1670 House Committee Motion to Agree ...... 1670 Draft House of Lords Reform Bill Motion to Agree ...... 1684 Electricity and Gas (Carbon Emissions and Community Energy Saving) (Amendment) Order 2011 Motion to Approve ...... 1687 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee (1st Day) ...... 1687 Public Service Pensions Statement ...... 1735 Consumer Insurance (Disclosure and Representations) Bill [HL] Report...... 1745 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee (1st Day) (Continued)...... 1750 Written Statements...... WS 185 Written Answers...... WA 341