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BILLS (4): INTRODUCTION AND ITUeginlthwP Annentlg FIRST READING 1. Constitution Act Amendment Bill. Tuesday, the 13th November. 1979 Bill introduced, on motion by Sir Charles Court (Premier), and read a first Lime. The SPEAKER (Mr Thompson) took the 2. Police Act Amendment Bill (No. 3). Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. Dill introduced, on motion by Mr O'Neil (Minister for Police and Traffic), and LEGAL PRACTITIONERS read a first time. 3. City of Perth Superannuation Fund Act Petition Independent Consumer Tribunal': Amendment Bill. DR DADOUR (Subiaco) [4.31 p.mn.]: I wish to 4. Local Government Act Amendment Bill present a petition which reads as follows- (No. 4). The Hon. the Speaker, Members of Bills introduced, on motions by Mrs Craig Legislative Assembly and the Parliament of (Minister for Local Government), and Western Australia, in the Parliament read a first time. assembled. We the undersigned support the Consumer PUBLIC NOTARIES BILL Action Movement's campaign for the setting Report up of an independent tribunal (having Report of Committee adopted. sufficient statutory powers to enforce its recommendations and decisions) to deal with Third Reading the complaints made by consumers of legal Leave granted to proceed forthwith to the third services against Legal Practitioners. reading. An additional important factor is that the Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr O'Neil operations of such an independent tribunal be (Deputy Premier), and returned to the Council subject to the scrutiny of Parliament and with an amendment. your Petitioners as in duty bound will ever LOAN BILL pray, that this humble petition be acceeded Second Reading to. This petition bears 241 signatures, and I certify SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands-- Treasurer) [5.15 p.m.]: I move- that it conforms with the Standing Orders of the Legislative Assembly. It is signed accordingly. That the Bill be now read a second time. The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be Each year authority is sought through a measure brought to the Table of the House. of this nature for the raising of loans to finance See petition No. 103. certain works and services detailed in the Estimates of Expenditure from the General Loan Fund. LEGAL PRACTITIONERS The Bill seeks to provide authority for the Consumer Tribunal: Petition raising of loans not exceeding $85.9 million for Independent the purposes listed in the first schedule. MR WILSON (Dianella) [4.33 p.m.]; I present Members may note that the borrowing a petition couched in terms similar to that authority being sought for each of the several presented by the member for Subiaco. This works and services listed in the schedule will not petition contains 320 signatures. I certify that it necessarily coincide with the estimated conforms with the Standing Orders of the expenditure on that item during the current Legislative Assembly. I have signed a certificate financial year. accordingly. In determining the loan authorisation The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be requirement, account has been taken of the brought to the Table of the House. unused balance of previous Loan Act See petition No. 104. authorisations and of the need to provide sufficient new borrowing authority to enable works of a continuing nature to be carried on for QUESTIONS a period of about six months after the close of the Questions were taken at this stage. financial year. [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979] 404605

This is in accordance with the usual practice I referred earlier to the fact that responsibility and ensures continuity of works in progress for new borrowings rests largely with the pending the passage of next year's Loan Bill. Commonwealth Government. In those years when Details of the condition of the various loan the amount raised on the Australian and overseas authorities are set out on pages 42 to 45 of the markets has been insufficient to finance the Loan Estimates. Those pages also provide States' programmes the Commonwealth makes up information relating to the appropriation of loan the shortfall. repayments received in 1978-79; the allocation of It does so by subscribing the required amount Commonwealth general purpose capital grants; to a special loan from its own resources. These and the distribution of $25.5 million transferred special loans carry terms and conditions similar to from earnings on the investment of cash balances those offered in the previous public loan raised in to the 30th June, 1979. Australia and the proceeds are allocated to the The main purpose of this Bill is to provide the States as part of their normal borrowing parcel. necessary authority to raise loans to help finance As a point of interest, the State's capital works programme. the Federal Government has provided almost $443 million from its The required borrowings will be undertaken by Consolidated Revenue Fund in the last two the Commonwealth Government which acts on financial years to meet such shortfalls. In view of behalf of all States in arranging new borrowings, the current situation in the money market it is conversions, renewals and redemptions of existing likely that further support will have to be loans. provided in 1979-80. The Commonwealth Government exercises this In times of tight liquidity this underwriting function under the terms of the 1927 Financial arrangement has proved to be Agreement and within the total borrowing of great practical programme for all Governments determined by benefit to the States to the extent that it enables the Australian Loan Council. The Loan Council us to proceed with planned works programmes also prescribes the terms and conditions of each each year secure in the knowledge that the full loan. Loan Council allocation will be forthcoming. It is most unfortunate that a similar undertaking is not Under a long-standing arrangement, the provided by the Commonwealth in relation to the Commonwealth will subscribe, from its own borrowing programmes of the larger semi- resources, any shortfall to complete the financing governmental and local government authorities. of the overall borrowing programme of the States. In addition, it provides a proportion of the total Under a "gentlemen's agreement", originating programme for State Governments agreed to by in 1936, the Australian Loan Council also the Loan Council in the form of a capital grant. approves an aggregate annual borrowing programme The capital grant now constitutes one-third of for those larger authorities wishing to each State's total programme and is intended to raise in excess of $1.2 million in new borrowings assist in financing capital works such as schools, during the financial year. The limit was raised police buildings and similar institutions from from $1 million at the June, 1979, Loan Council which debt charges are not normally recoverable. meeting. The Loan Council, at its June, 1979, meeting, The Loan Council has approved a borrowing approved a total State Government programme programme for larger State authorities of for 1979-80 of $1 245 million. Of this amount $I 301.6 million in 1979-80. Of this amount two-thirds, or $830 million, will comprise Western Australia has been allocated $108.7 borrowings and one-third, or $415 million, will be million. provided as an interest-free capital grant to the The basic programme remains at the same level States. as in 1978-79-namely, $75 million-but is The Western Australian Government's supplemented by temporary additions totalling borrowing allocation for the current financial year $33.6 million for the following purposes- is $76.8 million and our capital grant $38.4 $1 million to meet outstanding commitments million. This represents a reduction of 13.2 per on the Kwinana power station conversion; cent on the 1978-79 allocation, which, in turn,' was held at the same level as in 1977-78. 1 have $I5 mrillion for further electric power already discussed at length the impact this severe development at Muja; and, reduction in real terms has had on the State's $17.6 million for rehabilitation and works programme and I do not intend to cover the upgrading of the railway between Kwinana same ground again. and Koolyanobbing. 4606 4606[ASSEMBLY]

A further $4.5 million will be available to the to the raising of money for the General Loan State Energy Commission in 1979-80 under the Fund. special programme of borrowing for I commend the Bill to the House. infrastructure, specifically for the Pilbara Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Davies electricity grid scheme. This is the first of (Leader of the Opposition). increasing amounts that will be borrowed in subsequent years for projects approved under this Message: Appropriations programme. Message from the Governor received and read Details of the borrowing programmes of larger recommending appropriations for the purposes of authorities in 1979-80, including infrastructure the Bill. borrowings, are set out on page 46 of the Loan BILLS (10): ASSENT Estimates. Message from the Governor received and read Borrowings by authorities seeking less than notifying assent to the following Bills- $1.2 million are not restricted to an overall limit 1. Credit Unions Bill. although they are subject to the terms and 2. Agriculture and Related Resources conditions applying under the "gentlemen's Protection Act Amendment Bill. agreement". The borrowing programmes for State 3. Medical Act Amendment Bill. authorities in this category are detailed on page 47 of the Loan Estimates. 4. Local Government Act Amendment Bill (No. 3). It is evident that both larger and smaller authorities will experience difficulty in filling 5. Family Court Act Amendment and Acts their loan programmes this year. Repeal Bill. The demand for capital funds by authorities in 6. Unauthorised Documents Act Amendment all States has created a very tight market Bill. situation and competition amongst borrowers is 7. Fisheries Act Amendment Bill. extremely keen. 8. Local Government Act Amendment Bill. This situation.has arisen not only as a result of 9. Industrial Arbitration Act Amendment the growing needs of State authorities, but also Bill. due to the entry of several Commonwealth 10. Fire Brigades Act Amendment Bill. authorities into the limited domestic capital market. INDUSTRIAL ARBITRATION DILL With all authorities being subject to identical terms and conditions as set by Loan Council there In Committee is little room for manocuvering and the smaller Resumed from the 7th November. The States such as Western Australia could find Chairman of Committees (Mr Clarko) in the themselves at the end of the line when it comes to Chair; Mr O'Connor (Minister for Labour and obtaining a share of available loan funds. Industry) in charge of the Bill. Nevertheless every effort is being made to raise Clause 75: Commission may order secret planned new borrowings and I am confident that ballot- our programme will be achieved. Progress was reported after the clause had been The Dill also makes provision for an partly considered. appropriation from the Consolidated Revenue Mr TONKIN: I wish to make it clear to the Fund to meet interest and sinking fund on loans Committee that what the Minister for Labour raised under this and previous Loan Acts. and Industry said last Wednesday was quite Authority is also sought to allow the balances untrue; we are not opposed to secret ballots. We of previous authorisations to be applied to other are not even opposed to secret ballots of this kind. items. The second schedule sets out the amounts I wish also to refer to a great deal of to be reappropriated and the Loans Act which misconception which exists in the public mind. authorised the original appropriations. The items Many people have said to me, "Don't you agree to which the amounts are to be applied are set out with secret ballots? Don't you think secret ballots in the third schedule. are a good idea?" Members will appreciate this is one of the Whenever I have pursued the matter and asked complementary enabling Bills which is part of the them, "What type of secret ballot are you talking Budget group of Bills. This Bill refers particularly about?" I have found that in 85 per cent of cases [Tuesday, 13th November, 1 979J160 4607

they are talking about secret ballots for the the books so that it is very difficult to do anything election of union officers, as though those officers but return a Liberal candidate. In other words, were elected by a show of hands, or the picking of you can have a secret ballot, but you will have to straws! do what we want, anyway." The Government is The Government has played its part in notorious for that. Just look at the Kimberley furthering this myth. Of course officers of unions election, as well as elections in other places are elected by secret ballots. The Government is saying, "Employees can Secret ballots on various issues is a slightly make a decision, but if they do they may be dealt different matter. However, once again-as 1 with severely:' Let us get that clear. We are not made clear during the second reading talking about a democratic secret ballot. We are debate-the Opposition is not opposed to secret talking about a charade in which people who have ballots per so. The Minister for Labour and a vote can be dealt with very severely for voting in Industry was reported in the media as being a certain way. amazed that the Opposition would oppose secret My colleagues have pointed out the problem ballots. I wonder whether the Opposition could associated with going back to work. A secret demand equal space in the media to make it clear ballot may delay the going back to work to a we are not opposing secret ballots of themselves. great extent. This misconception-which it is a policy of the I pose the problem of what will happen when Government to perpetuate by continually getting media coverage, with statements which deceive there is a meeting at lunch time and someone and confuse people-needs to be cleared up. I says, "We are only half way through the business. have made the Opposition's position quite clear on Let's extend this another 20 minutes beyond the this point. lunch hour." They are on strike! Will the registrar of the commission or one of his officers be there I have also made it clear that this Bill is a with the ballot papers already made out in case fraud, because this Bill and this clause in such a motion is carried? At every meeting particular will not provide employees with many throughout the State will there be an officer of rights at all. It will enable workers to conduct a the commission to do that? Of course there will secret ballot: however, the commission can then not. Therefore, a decision to discuss something order them immediately back to work. So, what is could be illegal because it is not possible to hold a the point of asking for their opinion? If those ballot. employees do not -go back to work, the union officials who were simply obeying the decision of This poses serious problems with respect to members, made at a secret ballot, can be severely safety. It may be argued that employees could dealt with by the commission. They can be dealt wait a while before going on strike on the question with for obeying the democratic decision of their of wages. However, on questions of safety the members in a secret ballot ordered by the employees should not have to return to an unsafe commission. How is that being in favour of secret situation. They should wait until they have ballots? It is a fraud. organised a secret ballot; but they will not do it. Not only can union officers be severely dealt The employer would have to face reality. with under the penal clauses of this legislation for Ostensibly this Bill is to deal with resolution of obeying a decision democratically arrived at by conflict in industrial matters. It will not resolve members of a union; the union members conflict when employees are forced into the themselves-even those who voted against the position of breaking the law or going into an decision to go out on strike-can be severely dealt unsafe situation. with, as well. We believe that secret ballots are highly The Government says, "We will have the rank desirable, but many problems are presented by and ile deciding whether to go out on strike." As this Bill. We suggest the Government is playing we say, we are not opposed to chat. Then the on public misapprehensions, We believe in secret Government goes one further and says, "Those ballots. The Government has always won elections people who vote to go out on strike and all those by the Premier's saying he believes in who voted against it will be punished if the motherhood, and a vote for the Liberal Party is a commission sees fit." It needs to be clear in the vote for motherhood. That is the way politics have mind of the community just how genuine is the been played in this State for many years. secret ballot. We are used to the Government Therefore, when the Government says, "We doing this kind of thing with elections. It says, believe in secret ballots", people say, "Yes, so do "Yes, you can have an election, but we will cook we. ipso facto a vote for the Government must be 4608 4608ASSEMBLY) a vote for secret ballots." However, it is not like ballot should not be available to every Tom, Dick, that at all. or Harry around. We could finish up with the We are in favour of secret ballots, but we foreman on the site having a vote. Obviously there realise that this clause will not work. The Premier has to be a check of the membership. It is knows that, in his cynical way. The Premier suggested by this clause that the commission may would be the most cynical person I have ever impose a secret ballot on a section or a class of known. It is not a question of our going down on the workers. If the Government believes that on a our knees and praying that secret ballots will not safety issue the workers throw their hats in the work. It is a fact of life which we did not create. air, lock their tool boxes, and walk off the site, The facts of industrial life are as I have outlined that is a fallacy. It does not happen. People are and as my colleagues have outlined. The clause conscious about safety factors. They do not walk will not work because of the very nature of things. off jobs in that way. We see this as an attempt by the Government The workers make such decisions without to capture public popularity in the cynical way to interference from the union officials. Often the which we have become accustomed. The officials do not know the strike is on till all of a Government is asking that the people vote for this sudden they are advised that there is a dispute. and agree with it because it is a popular catchcry. However, it is suggested when they go to a However, the Government is not concerned compulsory conference that the workers on the whether the clause will work. That is not what the job have been coerced or misled. In reality, in 99 exercise is about. The exercise is about winning cases out of 100, the workers have not contacted the next election. their officials to be coerced, misled, or anything else. Mr SKIDMORE. I recognise that under this clause the commission is the body which will It is suggested, as a means of industrial peace, order the ballot. If one accepts that the that we will have a secret ballot of the members commission should have that power, then 1 would of the unions on the job. The end result of that not be on my feet quarrelling with this legislation. will be a long and costly business, because somebody will have to search the rolls and check What Concerns me is the effect that will have the members who are there. Somebody will have on industrial relations. I would like to refer to a to check to ensure that there is not somebody contribution by the member for Pilbara earlier. voting who has no right to be on the job. At page 4522 of Hansardthe member for Pilbara said- I wonder whether the people who are non- unionists will have the right to vote. It could If it isa simple procedure on one site,- easily happen there would be no need for this That is, the procedure of obtaining a ballot paper legislation to be challenged in relation to a non- and having the members cast a vote. That is what member. Any non-member could vote. A person the member was referring to. He continued- would not necessarily be involved in the dispute. -1 cannot see why it should not be a It could be that a foreman or a wages clerk, or the simple procedure on a combination of sites. truck drivers, or breadcarters could come onto the The member for Welshpool interjected and said, site and have a vote. That is not fanciful. It may "Who will control it?" The member for Pilbara be true that breadcarters would not come onto the then made the classic statement of all times when site; but I could certainly see the boss wanting to- he said- have one or two of his people, non-union it cannot be controlled. members, voting in the ballot. I cannot blame the member for Pilbara for That is as I read the clause. It does not seem to making those remarks, because he could see the restrict that sort of thing. same problems that I do. It is just not workable. Mr O'Connor: It is specific. It is all very well for the commission to say, "We Mr SKIDMORE: If this clause is to apply to will have a ballot of a section of the membert7" union members, it means the non-union members I want to deal with that question in itself. How on the job will be disfranchised. The Minister is does the commission verify in a short time that repudiating the point of view that this Dill will be people are entitled to vote? If the members are on in the interests of all workers. There will be a strike on a safety issue, the 50 workers could be situation that the commission will order a secret members of ive different unions. The commission ballot of the members of the union who are on has to issue an order on five unions requesting strike or who have stopped work on a safety issue them to produce their membership lists and to and the non-union members;' who are as identify the workers who are there. Surely the concerned about the safety issue, will not be (Tuesday, 13th November, 1979j 460960 entitled to vote. If the Minister can tell me I am Mr O'Connor: It did not take you long to ind wrong, I would like to hear from him. This will that out. not lead to good industrial relations. Mr SKIDMORE: If ever in my life I Let an employer If the Government does not want to look at the on a job well knowing he is in breach of question of union membership, there is the safety regulations and then advising the problem of checking the membership lists. commission there is a dispute over safety Mr Tonkin:, If you are talking about a building regulations I would be very surprised. It would construction job, have you noticed the people who not happen. look at what is going on? They could get involved. The employer would see to it that the They might want to vote. scaffolding and ladders were fixed, there were more safety hatches, and so on. One could rest Mr SKIDMORE: Of course, they could not assured the employer would not be approaching under this clause. the Industrial Registrar in regard to a safety Government members who have expressed issue. This is one of the clauses in the Bill which views on this clause say it is an easy matter. The contributes nothing to the debate. Minister suggested all this information ought to I have some notes here from the member for be fed into the TAB computer. Welshpool including an article on comments Mr B. T. Burke: You would never get a result made by Billy Snedden who is now the Speaker in then. the House of Representatives. The article is from Mr SKIDMORE: If my name came up, I the Daily News of Monday, the 16th May, 1977, would receive a ballot paper instead of the horse I and reads as follows- had backed. It is just not on. That might have Most strikes are short affairs. Could 100 been a spu r-of- the- moment suggestion by the or 1 000 men be prosecuted after they went Minister. The computer would have to be back to work? Could the union be fined or programmed with so many facets of so many deregistered? things, it would not be possible. The answer is NO in most cases. One of the greatest questions raised by all this I also do not believe it would have the is that it presupposes the commission will want to effect of preventing strikes. [a many cases it take a secret ballot of a section of the work force. would make a difficult situation worse. For some strange, inexplicable reason-I do not Secret ballots. To continue- know when-this could be applied. It may be There is a good argument for a secret when workers have stopped work over an issue ballot during a strike in some cases. and the commission decides it will get these The Commissioo, if it believes a secret people back and says, "We will impose a secret ballot may encourage a settlement, can order ballot on you." it. However, it should not be assumed that Clause 75(2) states- every ballot will result in a decision to go Where a union of- employees is back to work. concerned- What happens when workers decide to strike and I am concerned. To continue- refuse to return to work? -in any matter and that matter has caused Mr O'onnor: What happens now? or contributed to, or in the opinion of an Mr SKIDMORE; What happens when the officer of that union- workers are determined to slay on strike? Is the I could have advised my secretary, so he is now Government intending to say to the commission concerned. To continue- that there are a few workers who were forced or bludgeoned into saying they would stay out on --or any employer affected thereby is likely strike until the safety issue was determined? In to cause any such employer- fact, this does not happen in the trade union The employer would know because I have picked movement. To continue quoting- up my tool kit and taken off. To continue- It is a depressing thought that to avoid this -shall, for the purpose of the exercise by the we must wait for the effects of a strike to be Commission of its powers under subsection so extensive and so damaging that it will (I), notify the Registrar accordingly. force the strikers to vote for a return to work. 1 assume all these people would have the right to There are less destructive ways to resolve advise the registrar of an impending problem. industrial disputes. (1452 4610 4610[ASSEMBLY]

No single formula will stop strikes-nor on strike by providing for a secret ballot; but will compulsory secret ballots. where is the clause which deals with employers? The now Sir Billy Snedden made those comments We have always respected Commissioner Kelly in an admirable fashion and I endorse his for his knowledge in the industrial field and we remarks. have heard what he thinks. So, can the Minister As I have said time and time again, the indicate where employers can be dealt with in the Government can introduce all sorts of legislation, same manner, because if the commissioner's but it will never stop the trade unions, through the statement is correct, the employers in this State workers, striking on issues they believe are just, have caused disputation? whether or not the Government, the commission, Mr O'Connor: I think we agree that even in the or the employers believe they are just. The Government's view, some employers .have caused Government can impose all the penalties it likes; disputation and have not done sufficient to try to however, such things will not solve the problem. overcome some of the problems in the early This clause serves no purpose at all; I can see no stages. I do not disagree with you on that point. advantage in it. It states simply that the Mr T. H. JONES: If the Minister agrees and commission "may" do all those things by calling a admits that, and if we find from investigation that secret ballot, which will achieve nothing under the a number of strikes are caused by employer circumstances. action, what is the Government intending to do Mr T. H. JONES: In the Minister's opinion, about it? Again I pause for the Minister to this Bill will give unionists the freedom to which interject. they are entitled, yet this clause contains a further Mr O'Connor: I will come back to this. restriction on them. It seems it is fine for the commission to have powers to deal with the Mr T. H. JONES: I will be waiting to hear an workers, but where are the powers to deal with answer. I see an officer working very hard in the the employers? Speaker's Gallery trying to find an answer for the Minister. As Commissioner Kelly said, and as I quoted last week, "by foolish and provocative action Mr O'Connor: There is a clause in the Bill. strikes are caused by employers". He did not Mr T. H. JONES: I have not been able to find place all the blame on the trade union movement a satisfactory answer. as a whole, as the Government is doing. I will How foolish is the Minister's suggestion that read what Commissioner Kelly had to say because we use the TAB offices to obtain the views of it is very important and because this Bill is workers who have submitted ballot papers. What dealing only with the actions of unionists. would happen if the shearers were on strike; what Can the Minister tell me where the Bill deals would happen if the AWU called them out? How with the actions of employers who provoke would the Government get the shearers to the disputation? I pause for the Minister to answer. nearest TAB office? Would we have to wait days Mr O'Connor: I will come to that. or weeks whilst they found their way to the nearest TAB office to record their vote? Is this Mr T. H. JONES: This is what Commissioner Kelly had to say- the system to be used which has been applauded by Government members? What a stupid Although the present Industrial suggestion, yet this is what the Minister said he Arbitration Act and the attached proposals would do when answering the Leader of the contain provisions for dealing with strikes a Opposition. balanced assessment of the importance of those provisions should include the fact that Mr O'Connor: No I did not. Go back and read much more time is lost in industry generally it. through industrial accidents than through Mr T. H. JONES: I shall read the following industrial disputes; that the vast majority of passage from Mansard- registered unions, though asserting that they Mr Davies: Oh nonsense, the logistics of it have the right to strike, seldom do so; and would make it impossible. that strikes are often caused by foolish or Mr O'CONNOR: Let me tell members provocative action by employers- how it could be done. Each union member That is what one of the senior commissioners in would have a ticket and he would feed this Western Australia thinks of the industrial scene. ticket into a machine at the TAB office in his Again I point out that this clause provides for nearest town. We could have the result in one the commission to take action when unionists go day. [Tuesday, 13th November, 19791 46116

The Minister did not say weeks. H-e said one day. mining industry. These are not strikes on What a stupid comment! It shows the Minister industrial issues; they involve safety issues. A has not done his homework. Any member large number of strikes are brought about because representing the northern areas knows it would be of safety issues. In many instances the workers impossible to get a decision in one day. Firstly, were found to be right. the workers would have to get to the nearest TAB Sir Charles Court: Tell us about that horse office which could be hundreds of miles away. called "Red". Yet the Minister said this was how the I will tell the Premier when had the Mr T. H. JONES: Government simplified process of he goes down to Collie on Thursday. I have counting secret ballots. planned something for the Premier. I will not tell To~say the least, the idea is 'unworkable and the Premier; he can find out for himself. illogical. What about the person who does not wish to enter a TAD office for religious reasons? Sir Charles Court: I gather you have organised it. Mr O'Connor: H-e does nbt have to vote. Mr T. H. JONES: The Premier would be Mr T. H1. JONES: The present Act looks after disappointed if we did not give him a welcome. people who have religious beliefs and who do not Sir Charles Court: I want to know about the wish to join unions. However, the Minister must horse called "Red". The new members in the realise there are many people who, for religious Chamber rhay be interested to know about that reasons, refuse to enter TAB offices. 1 have never been in one so I could not register a vote. strike. Mr O'Connor: It is more difficult trying to get Mr T. H-. JONES: In fairness to the Premier, something in. no-one knows why the "Red" strike was held. No- money out than to put one on the union side knows. However, to refresh Mr T. H. JONES: The Minister is trying to be the memory of members, this strike occurred in funny, but it would not be easy if one is 1949 when a horse was taken down a mine to inexperienced. Will people with religious work there. The horse breaker could not break the objections be forced by regulation to enter a TAB horse in to work in the underground conditions. office against their wishes? What a stupid Justice Gallagher was eventually called in to suggestion it was from the Minister. settle the issue. The horse was sold to the former Clause 76 reads as follows- member for Bunbury's father who owned a 76. (1) The Commission may make such greengrocer shop in the town. The horse was sold orders as it thinks necessary for the effectual for 126. This is all on record and if the Minister exercise of its powers and functions and the wishes to look it up he can find it in the archives enforcement of its orders under this Division. of the State Library. (2) A person who refuses or fails to comply The CHAIRMAN: Order! Will the member with an order of the Commission under this return- Division or hinders Or obstructs the carrying Mir T. H. JONES: I am just about to finish my out of any such order commits an offence story, if I may go on. against this Act. Several members interjected. Penalty: $500 or 6 months' imprisonment, Mr T. H. JONES: At the time our hockey girls or both. were playing at the Esplanade and every time Does the Minister think he will be able to force they went out to play they were booed. workers back when they are out on a safety issue? No-one knows what the strike was all about, I am sure he will not be able to do so. but it was probably a safety issue. The horse Let us consider one of the biggest strikes ever could not adapt to the underground mining staged in this State. It involved the coalmining conditions, but the company was adamant that industry back in 1949 when the workers went out the horse would work there. If one is working 300 on strike over a safety matter. Members might of 400 feet underground, safety is a very recall that the State was in darkness for weeks. Is important aspect. It may be all right for us here, the Minister trying to tell me that the Kalgoorlie but when the earthquake occurred some four or Collie miners would not strike over a safety years ago we all went home at six o'clock because issue? a crack had appeared in the wall in the gallery. The Minister knows there have been strikes in Unfortunately we are not concerned enough for mines when companies have changed timbering workers, yet we evacuated this place during an methods and the men have stopped work. There earthquake. Safety is of prime importance in the have been 'disputes involving safety issues in the mining industry. I am sure the member for South 4612 4612[ASSEMBLY]

Perth will agree with me that the first thing in a members. However, currently there is no check miner's mind is safety. whatsoever. There can be a group of people who I would like to see a provision where the are asked to vote and the union organiser or the employers can be dealt with in the same way as shop steward does not ask to look at their cards the unionists if it can be proved that the before they vote. They do not say, "File through employers caused a strike. If a provision is not so that we can check your credentials." included, will the Minister give us an assurance Mr Skidmore: I did not say they did. that it will be so included? Mr SODEMAN: I agree. I am saying that it Mr SODEMAN: It never ceases to amaze does not happen. If we wanted to run a secret members on this side of the Chamber how the ballot prior to a union going on strike, what is member for Collie and the member for Swan wrong with it being done on the same basis as I always use the matter of safety as an emotive have previously mentioned. issue when they are discussing anything which is Mr Skidmtore: The Act says it has to be a union important. However, they are inconsistent when member. It is not me saying that, it is your Bill they talk about the Police Act and section 54B which states that. So, you have to check the and people being able to march down the street, membership and that is a different ball game. when someone wishes to make a protest. Mr SODEMAN: It is not all that hard to do Mr T. H. Jones: What has that got to do with and the member for Swan having been extensively the clause? involved with unions would know this. Several members interjected. I believe that the situation is not adequately The CHAIRMAN: Order! covered in the Bill in so far as secret ballots are Mr SODEMAN: We never hear of the member concerned. Unions, having been able to take a for Swan and the member for Collie saying in this secret ballot prior to going on strike, can get back Chamber or being quoted in the paper that off strike in a similar way to the way they do now unionists should not be able to protest by by getting together in a group and having a show marching along a street. If a company told the of hands. A point of view is now decided on by a unionists to transport something from point A to show of hands, without union membership being point B by walking in the street, those opposite verified. A show of hands decides whether to go would be the f irst to say they cannot do this on strike or whether to go off strike. because their lives would be at risk. Mr Skidmore: There is more to it. They always use safety as an example when it Mr SODEMAN: The only difference I suggest suits them. When the member for Swan says the is that the member can be given a ballot paper clause we are speaking to relates to secret ballots, and-using an example I gave previously-a he is correct. I will repeat again what I said group of shearers decide whether the wool is wet previously. When a group of unionists wish to or dry with a secret ballot. That is an over- decide whether they will hold a strike, and having simplified example and it relates to one group of set up a meeting- shearers. Mr T. H. Jones: Are you reflecting on the Chair? Mr Skidmore: You are talking about a localised issue. Mr SODEMAN:-some of the shop stewards present a biased and one-eyed view as per Mr SODEMAN: Yes, but most strikes are instructions issued such as those I read out to the normally as a result of localised issues. if it is Chamber last week. simple to take a ballot of that nature on one site, it does not become complex with a number of Mr Skidmore: You were saying they were given union structures and companies involved on a misleading information on the problem, but number of sites. actually they are given the facts so they can make a decision. Several members interjected. Mr SODEMAN: I am saying that in many The CHJAIRM AN: Order! instances that is not the case and the member for Mr SODEN4AN: The Bill is inadequate in Morley has said exactly the same thing. I say to certain parts in this regard. The member for the member for Swan that a secret ballot cannot Collie made a comment that he would like to see be controlled, it cannot be expected that a list of provisions in the Bill to cover employers and unionists would be checked off so that so called employees. He has not read the Bill because there infiltrators cannot vote. The shop stewards or is a clause which relates to clause 75-referring convenors should be able to verify their own to both sides. Clause 97(1) says- [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979] 461341

Subject to this section, a union of than they are in a change in the preference employees or employers commits an offence situation. under this Act if- Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m. Sect ion 97 goes on to refer and relate to clause Mr DAVIES: Some pertinent questions have 75. been asked about this clause and they have not Mr T. H. Jones: It does not bestow any right or been answered. cover at all. Mr O'Connor: I have not had a chance to do so. Mr SODEMAN: All the way through the Bill Mr DAVIES: I read the debate which took two parties are mentioned and the obligations of place last Wednesday and to which the Minister both parties are also mentioned. The member for replied but he did not answer some of the Collie when talking about Commissioner Kelly pertinent questions. was not paying any regard whatsoever to Commissioner Kelly's attitude towards strikes. In The tenor of the debate has been that there will 1977 after the Mt. Newman strike Commissioner be a strike and therefore a secret ballot will be Kelly was quite annoyed that the company was taken, The clause does not mention a strike; it just says, "Where the Commission considers that the not prepared to go along with a recommendation he made. In The West Australian of the 2nd views of the members or of a section or class of September, 1977, under the heading, "Newman the members of a union ... ought to be rapped on closed shop'; an article read as ascertained". They could be views on whether it is follows- fair that union fees be increased by 50c a month. There is no suggestion that the clause relates The Mt Newman Mining Co was criticised purely to a strike. Any question at all associated in the WA Industrial Commission yesterday with the running of a union can call for a secret for changing its attitude to compulsory ballot. unionism. I do not know whether that is what is intended A union official told the commission by the Government or whether it still thinks the yesterday that the company had agreed to clause relates only to strikes. What kind of give preference to trade unionists. This legislation is this? If the Government wants secret reversed an attitude the company had ballots on strikes, why does it not say so? The Bill expressed in the commission earlier. gives the Government carte blanche to conduct a Senior Commissioner E. R. Kelly said that secret ballot on any matter it chooses. he deplored the company's attitude on the Mr O'Connor: Any matter the commission issue. chooses. By changing its position the company had Mr DAVIES: A section of the union left the commission in an invidious position, membership or a union official can refer the he said. matter to the commission and the commission can Commissioner Kelly deplored the change in say, "Go ahead and have a secret ballot." What attitude because in his report he said that many of does this mean? Are we giving carte blanche? In the complaints he received from people were certain circumstances, we can believe the about compulsory unionism, and that is why commission would be in effect the Government, secret ballots now have come into their own. They but I do not want to draw that long bow. I want are a device, if they are effective, that would be to find out the intention of the clause. It says invaluable to people on the shop floor each time a apparently that the views on any matter ought to strike is proposed. be ascertained. So if members opposite are saying that the Bill A very pertinent question was raised by the is biased, it is not true. If the members of the member for Melville last week: How does the Opposition were listening to what people are commission still have power over people who are saying then they would know that they are not not registered under the Industrial Arbitration asking for secret ballots to elect union officials, as Commission? This clause makes specific mention the member for Morley said and has now been of that situation. It says "the views of the persons caught out as being inconsistent. The people on or a section or class of the persons who were at the shop floor are asking to have their say without the time of the cancellation members of the having a biased, one-eyed point of view forced union". It could be months later that the views of upon them, and without being involved in some persons who were members of a deregistered political, disruptive and destructive strikes. They union might be polled by the commission by are more interested in an effective secret ballot secret ballot. This is unreasonable and 4614 614[ASSEMBLY]J unworkable. It seems we have a blanket clause be prepared to put up with any punishment if they which can cover any situation involving any believe what they are doing is right. It has employee. happened in the past. Indeed, many of our Why have the farce of saying members of a forefathers came to this country because they had union can be polled when the union dould have the temerity to organise trade unions or trade been deregistered some months before? The associations, and I think some of that spirit still commission can still demand or arrange a secret remains. ballot. We can say something further about the Mr Tonkin: This is the mob that put them method of dealing with secret ballots when we there, too. come to later clauses. The commission can say to Mr DAVIES: An -d I suppose the anc~stors of people who are not members of a union, who may those on the other side were responsible for their have come into the trade or industry since the being sent here. union was deregistered and may have been able to Mr Young: All we people of property and all belong to the union if it were still registered, that that sort of stuff! they can be polled. What is the Government Mr Tonkin: No-the same thoughts and coming at here? It does not seem to me to be logical or reasonable. Will we have any matter ideology. associated with the running of a union subject to Mr DAVIES: So here we have a situation the -whim of a disgruntled section of the union? where the commission shall notify the registrar of They might go to the commission and the any matter which has caused or contributed to or commission might say, "For a peaceful life, let us is likely to cause industrial action, etc.-it has the have a secret ballot on it." widest possible meaning. It is a situation which at times can be very proper but as far as the If it refers only to strikes, I do not think I need Government is concerned it is quite unreal and to canvass matters which were fully covered by should not exist. This is the nature of the m embers of -the Opposition on Wednesday last Government's approach to industrial relations. It and earlier this evening. The Government seems just does not know what goes on in the work to approach it from the point of view that if place. something goes wrong the shop steward appears as if by magic, calls everyone out, they all put up The Government listens to its friends in the their handsi and they are on strike. That just does Confederation of Western Australian Industry, Or not happen. whatever it is called. It is funny that those on the conservative side have a habit of constantly There is no doubt that some instant walk-outs changing their names. Perhaps it is done in Order do take place. It is not necessary for anyone to to confuse. The Government takes its advice from lead them because in most cases the these people. The trade union movement is willing circumstances which give rise to the situation to make a contribution and to acknowledge that justify the walk-out. It is preposterous to suppose at times changes are necessary. The trade union a workman will be prevented from laying down movement has the experience in the work place, his tools -while the complaint is made to the but it is completely ignored. commission, the commission considers it, goes The questions I pose in regard to clause 75 are: about organising a secret ballot, and some days Does this mean only industrial action? What is later conducts the ballot. meant by "industrial action"? Is the conclusion I The member for Swan has had more recent have reached in regard to subclause (1)-that a union organising experience than most other secret ballot can be taken on any matter members of this Chamber, perhaps apart from the associated with a union-a proper conclusion? member for Melville. In a strike situation which Does it mean the commission has power over demands positive action, the commission could people who are non-unionists by reason of the fact deliberately delay action, if it wanted to. it could that the union has been deregistered? How long make all kinds of excuses for not taking positive ago must the union have been deregistered-a action. Therefore, the ballot might not take place day, a week, a month, a year? Where does the for some considerable time-a matter of days in commission get its power, except by this clause of the short term, or weeks in the long term. the Bill, in relation to people who are not If the Government suggests for a moment that unionists? the average working Australian will accept that Ordinary employees may want to take some kind of situation and pay heed to legislation of action but may have opted out of a union because this nature, whatever the penalties are, the they know they cannot take action in that union; Government is grossly mistaken. Some people will and they certainly cannot be forced to be (Tuesday, 13th November, 1979j 461561 members of the union in any way, if the concede they are also the most democratic Government has its way. These may be ordinary organisations in this country. citizens who want to express themselves in Clause 75 gives a number of people the power relation, to working conditions, industrial safety, to interfere in the affairs of unions. In fact, they hours of duty, holidays, anything at all. They may can interfere in any matter. As my leader pointed feel compelled to take positive action. They do not out, it is not simply a matter of strike action; this belong to any organisation but the Government provision gives power to the commission to says, "Irrespective of that fact, or even if you are interfere, it gives power to some union officials to eligible to belong to a union if its registration has interfere, and it gives power to an employer to not been cancelled, we still have power over you interfere. to conduct a secret ballot. I would like to consider some trade uniong and Iit is drawing a red herring across the debate to the way they conduct their affairs to see whether say we are, not in favour of secret ballots. If they in fact such power by an outside body is are workable and if they can be taken on the spot warranted. First of all I will take the Seamen's quickly so that they can accurately reflect the Union of Australia. Under the rules decided upon feeling of union members at that time, we are by its membership, a monthly stop-work meeting quite happy to go along with them. I challenge must be held in every major port on the last the Minister to say when any of us on this side of Tuesday of every month. In this country the crews the chamber ever said we were not' in favour of of ships which are in port meet once& a month. secret ballots. We are not in favour of secret. Every issue before the union is presented to the ballots when they are unworkable. meetings by the leadership of the union, and each I am sure it was a flight of fancy on the part of matter is discussed thoroughly. In fact, one the Minister, which perhaps he now regrets, when cannot gain entry to the Seaman's Union stop- he suggested the TAB could be used to record work meetings unless one has a financial union votes. I do not know whether he spoke to Mr card, or unless one has been invited. I have had Jarman at the TAB and whether the TAR would the privilege on numerous occasions to be invited want to reprogramme its computers. I do not to meetings as a visitor. know whether the TAB will abandon races while Mr Sibson: Can I come? voting takes place or whether the TAB offices will be opened at times when there are no races so Dr TROY: No, they do not like secondhand car that voting may take place. This shows how salesmen, and they do not like thieves. completely ridiculous the Minister's suggestion A member: That is a bit rough! was. I am sure he made it without thinking. Dr TROY: Well, the member for Bunbury The fact remains this is a very dangerous asked if he could attend. The Seamen's Union has clause. An ordinary working man can come under certain standards, and it is controlled by its control merely through wanting to express himself membership. It is a very democratic union, and it 'in a matter related to his employment. The tenor conducts its affairs along the lines I have or the debate indicates the clause refers only to indicated when ships are in port. When ships are industrial action but we do not know what not in port a meeting is held of all members on "industrial action" means in this context. every boat on every journey, and a delegate is However, a reading of the clause does not indicate elected on each occasion to represent the views of it relates only to industrial action, and once again the membership. In fact, the union has a I say the Government is being dishonest in its thoroughly democratic system of running. its promotion of this Bill. We can now see why we affairs. must read every clause and pit every possible I refer now to the Waterside Workers interpretation on it to make it as wide as possible. Federation of Australia. Under its rules it must If the Government intends to do that then, as I conduct half-yearly stop-work meetings. Of have indicated, it will stop at nothing. course, many other meetings are held when Dr TROY: I would like to make a few particular issues are at stake. For example, there comments on this clause. I think it is an amazing was a circumstance in Fremantle recently provision, and one wonders' why the Government involving Co-operative Bulk Handling Ltd. has brought it forward. workers. Repeated meetings were held at the One must begin by looking at the record of the fleet Street depot at the back of the wharf. union movement. Trade unions are amongst the Anywhere between 700 and 900 union members oldest community organisations in this country could be found there at 7.30 a.m. and, when one studies their records, one must Mr Young: Who minds the shop? 4616 4616[ASSEMBLY]

Dr TROY: The Minister for Health would be Dr TROY: To return to the point, we are too tired to get out of bed to attend such a legislating in this instance without there being a meeting. These people get out of their beds to particular reason within the community so to do. I ensure they conduct the affairs or their union, and am suggesting that if we want to he serious, and they certainly do that. Reports of Federal officials to be seen to be serious, about the affairs of our are read out at the meeting, and then discussion community, we should not start to interfere in ensues and a vote is taken. At such meetings it is union affairs. It would seem to me the main very clear who conducts the affairs of the union. reason that this Government is interested in The answer is that it is the membership of the interfering in union affairs is to try to introduce union. political control over trade unions. The reason the The CHAIRMAN: Order! The member for Government wants to do that is simply that it Fremantle will realise I have given him a few cannot solve the economic ills with which we are minutes in which he appears to have digressed faced. The Premier tonight could give no somewhat from the clause. I request him now to information in respect of solving our relate his remarks specifically to clause 75. unemployment problem. This provision is really an attempt to sheet home political blame to the Dr TROY: Mr Chairman, clause 75 begins as union movement, when such blame is not follows- warranted. 75. (1) Where the Commission considers I reject this clause. that the views of the members or of a section or class of the members of a union or. where Mr Young: You are sick. the registration of a union has been Mr O'CONNOR: I am pleased the Opposition cancelled, that the views of the persons or a has indicated tonight its support of secret ballots. section or class of the persons who were at Mr Skidmore: We have always supported them. the time of the cancellation members of the Mr O'CONNOR: This i's rather strange, union upon a matter, ought to be ascertained, because we heard conflicting views last the Commission may order that the matter Wednesday and again tonight; therefore, I could be submitted to a, vote of those members, or be forgiven for casting doubts on the attitude of of the members of that section or class, taken members opposite. by secret ballot, with or without provision for absent voting, in accordance with directions This clause enables the Industrial Commission given by the Commission. to order secret ballots when it feels the views of employees ought to be obtained. That is its main It would seem to me what is at question here is significance, and it is linked with clause 97 which whether the commission ought to have power to provides that certain strikes are not illegal interfere in the conduct of the affairs of a union, provided appropriate action is taken. Subclause or whether unions have the power to conduct their (2) of clause 75 contains a requirement that those own affairs-which is demonstrably so. I would concerned notify the registrar of anticipated put it to you that in the case of the trade unions to industrial action. That is what is contained in the which I have referred-and the truth is always clause; it is as simple as that. Therefore, it rather concrete-there is no justification for a provision surprises me that members opposite Performed a such as this. I would put it to you further, Sir, merry-go-round last Wednesday evening, and that my remarks have been most pertinent to that. again tonight. There is a double standard in our community. Mr. Tonkin; What about answering the No union officials presently face charges of problems we raised? forgery or fraud, or are involved in land Mr O'CONNOR: I will try to answer what was scandals-things we consider to be typical of said if members give me time. If I forget to people who support the Liberal Party and mention any queries, I will endeavour to answer conservatives. them if I am reminded. Mr Sibson: Your own party will not support Members spoke of possible industrial action if you. this clause is passed. Dr TROY: The fact is that matter was Mr Skidmore: That is incorrect. determined by a democratic procedure within my Mr O'CONNOR: Some members mentioned party. It is the right of members within my party possible industrial action. I say frankly that the to make that decision, and no-one else has a right to interfere with it. reason for the introduction of this Bill is the industrial action we have seen in this State. The Several members interjected. present Act is just not working, and enormous (Tuesday, 13th November. 1979J161 4617 problems have developed, I ask members at least Mr O'CONNOR: I can understand that to give this provision a go, because it is highly members opposite do not want to listen to my unlikely the situation will be as bad under any comments, even though I listened to their circumstances as the situation we have seen in comments without interjecting. recent times. I believe this legislation will work Mr Jarman got some of his fellows to look into well if given a proper go. this and he said it could work. Mr Skidmore: It cannot work, because the Mr Skidmore: Six to one to strike! workers will be on strike before this provision can Mr O'CONNOR: Of course, members can become effective. make that comment; but Mr .Jarman had his Mr O'CONNOR: Members spoke about officers investigate this and he thought there workers walking off sites for safety reasons. Do would be little difficulty in getting the system to not members trust the commission? When this work satisfactorily. Of course, some members Bill was discussed initially Opposition members might know more than Mr Jarman. complained because they said it took powers Mr T. H. Jones: We are just asking questions. away from the commission. Tonight they are complaining because they say the commission is Mr O'CONNOR: My comment was not being given too much power. facetious; it is a system which could possibly Operate. Mr Tonkin: The commission will not know about it, because the men will be off the job first. Mr T. H. Jones: And have a result in one day? Mr O'CONNOR: It could. Members can look Mr O'CONNOR: Does the member think the at the operations we have not to handle of in regard to State commission is competent issues elections. It is all done in one day. The only thing safety? Under this Bill the commission will have with computer operations on secret ballots is ihat extremely wide powers-and I believe it should we would not have the problems of counting the have them-to cope with any problems that arise. votes as we would now. This would be done Surely it is the right of the commission to automatically and recorded back in a central interfere and to take action when it believes the office within a few minutes of a vote being health and welfare of the community are at stake. recorded. There are a number of possibilities so I certainly believe that, and it is a principle I will far as elections in the State and the entire country support. The member for Collie and the Leader of are concerned. the Opposition referred to a remark I made on Wednesday in connection with the TAB. Mr Skidmiore: How long does Mr .Jarman suggest it would take to feed into the computer Mr T. H. Jones; I quoted you word for word. the total membership of a union to arrive at an Mr O'CONNOR: Yes. I said it would be answer as to whether or not all members are possible for that situation to occur. I spoke to Mr entitled to vote? Jarman, whom I would regard as probably the Mr O'CONNOR: One day. most competent computer operator in Australia. Mr Davies: It would depend on the number of Mr Davies: Steady on, now. workers there. Mr O'CONNOR: Well, I do not know of Mr O'CONNOR: There would need to be anyone more competent than he. If members someone in the shop, and someone to check that opposite know of any, let them naine one. they were entitled to a vote. It is possible; it is not Mr Davies: What about the university, the a pipe dream, although there are some difficulties. Public Health Department, and all the other Mr T. H. Jones: What if the AWU called the places? shearers out on strike? How would you canvass Mr O'CONNOR: Mr Jarman is an extremely the votes of every shearer Working hundreds of competent person in the operation of computers. miles away from a TAB office? How would you He has set up in Western Australia the best handle that in one day? totalisator operation in Australia. When I was the Mr O'CONNOR: What about on election days Minister responsible for the TAB other States when we might have a group of people caught on sent representatives over here to obtain the Nullarbor? These sorts of problems can occur. information from Mr Jarmian. As a matter of Mr T. H. Jones: It will not work, and you know fact, the totalisator people requested Mr Jarman it. to go overseas to teach people certain aspects of Mr O'CONNOR: Questions were asked computer operations in several countries. regarding non-unionists voting in ballots. Of Mr Skidmore interjected. course, they would not have a vote in a ballot. If 4618 4618[ASSEMBLY] members read the clause they will see it refers clause which I see as a vexatious one; it is not a only to unionists. problem area. It is a clause I consider all Mr Skidmore: But they are disfranchised. members should agree to. Mr O'CONNOR: If I said those people would Mr DAVIES: Once again the Minister did not have a vote, Opposition members would complain. answer the questions. It is a no-win situation. Opposition members are Mr O'Connor: I asked whether there were any having two bob each way. The miember for Collie I did not answer. said there was no clause covering penalties for Mr DAVIES: The Minister said if any employers. He said he could not find such a questions were unanswered I would undoubtedly clause. In fact, there are several clauses where rise, and I shall not disappoint him. He mentioned employers can be penalised for non-compliance. how fantastic the TAB computer was. Anything Mr T. H. Jones: For causing a strike? can be done with computers these days. It is not Mr O'CONNOR: Clause 45(2)(a) refers to all that amazing that Mr Jarman has said the refraining from industrial action, and if people do TAB could handle this. We all accept it could be not comply, action can be taken under clause 83 done. We know computers can be programmed to for breaching an order of the commission. Clauses do almost anything. But what about where there 73 and 74 contain penalties for employers. is no computer link? What about ports where Mr T. H. Jones: Where are the provisions for there is no computer link? fines? MrT O'Connor: What port? Mr O'CONNOR: There are fines of $1000 Mr DAVIES: There is no TAB computer in and $2 000. 1 do not intend to do all the member's Port Hedland. work. If the member cannot find these provisions Mr Sibson: The shearers are in a Federal I will show him later. award. Mr T. H. Jones: It is your job to answer Mr DAVIES: We are not talking about questions. shearers; we are talking about Port Hedland and Mr O'CONNOR: I have already pointed out the fact that there is no TAB computer link there. the penalties. Last Thursday evening I asked one of the The Leader of the Opposition commented members of the TAB Board (Mr Ron Ewing) about the TAB and several other matters. If I whether the board had a computer link to Port have not answered his queries, I will do so when Hedland. He said it did not and that the Port he returns. Hedland office sends bets down by telex. He said the TAB shop closes down at the same time as the The member for Fremantle made a rather Perth shops and the information is sent by telex strange statement. He said the Seamen's Union and fed into the local computer. He invited me was the most democratic organisation we have. down to the head office to see the computers Mr Coyne: He forgot the painters and dockers. operating. Mr O'CONNOR: The member for Fremantle So we have a State-wide computer link-up amazes me. The organisation to which he has which does not exist! Port Hedland is an area referred has "democratically" chased ships from where there is likely to be industrial trouble and the State. "democratically" stopped farmers from where there is likely to be a vote taken; but this is earning a living, "democratically" stopped the where the system will break down. That is not the loading of live sheep, and "democratically" only unanswered question. stopped grain from going out of the country. One can put all these things into a computer if When the member for Fremantle makes such it is properly programmed. However, what about comments I cannot but doubt the sincerity of occasions when a race meeting is being held, or what he says. when the TAB is not open? The TAB offices are This clause does reflect on secret ballots; open only during restricted hours. What kind of further it reflects on varying ballots the circumstances will prevail when we wish to record commission desires to be held, and this was a secret ballots? The Minister has not got down to point raised by the Leader of the Opposition. It "tors". does not reflect only on secret ballots to end Mr O'Connor: You did not ask that question. strikes; the clause gives power to the commission to order secret ballots which it believes will be in Mr DAVIES: I did; the Minister should look at the interests of the unionists involved. It does not Hansard. reflect solely on strike action. It is certainly not a Mr O'Connor: I will answer it. [Tuesday, 13th November, 19791 414619

Mr DAVIES: Will we be calling in these part- commission and penalties can be inflicted on them time employees to open up the TAB offices? if they do not do that. The important point is that it is not related only We have found out already that this does not to industrial action, and industrial action is refer only to industrial action, which can be defined in the definitions in subelause (2). If there loosely interpreted as-strikes. It can refer to any is likely to be anything faintly associated with matter associated with working conditions; industrial action, there is a responsibility on the matters which the commission feels should be the union to tell the registrar. subject of a secret ballot. This is completely The Minister has not explained what the unacceptable to me and the Minister did not situation will be with people who are not members answer that question which I posed to him earlier of unions. Under this clause, if a worker was and which the member for Melville posed to him likely to have been a member of a union and the last Wednesday. union had been deregistered, the commission Dr TROY: The Minister demonstrated this c6uld say, "You have no association with the abysmal ignorance of the way in which unions Industrial Commission at all. You are conduct their affairs. 1 do not know which deregistered, so you do not enjoy any of the organisations. he had in mind when he was privileges-doubtful as some might be-of the speaking. There may be a good reason for having Industrial Commission." A person could be in secret ballots within the Liberal Party, but that is South New Guinea for all the good the Industrial its business, Commission will be to him. The Minister referred to the alleged activities So we find in this clause that if there is a hint of the Seamen's Union, but none of his comments of industrial action, any set of people-and I will were true. He was confused in regard to a number repeat them for the Minister- of matters. Mr O'Connor: I know them. 1 referred to the manner in which the Seamen's Mr DAVIES: I will repeat them nonetheless. Union conducts its affairs. Of course, the The members of a union, if there is a union, or Minister is ignorant in that regard. H-e could not any other person apparently can say. to the understand that any orga nisation could conduct commission, "I think there might be trouble its affairs in a democratic way. The Minister was here", and the commission can then take what we confused as to whether or not the Seamen's Union might term "Police action" over an employee who was entitled to act in matters involving the has no right or privileges under the Industrial interests of the whole country. I believe it has that Commission, except that he might want to go on right. strike even though he is not a union member; even We do not hear the Minister, or any other though he may be a member of a deregistered member opposite, challenging the right of union which may have - been deregistered six capitalist companies to leave the country as they months previously. The commission can still inflict penalties on people in those situations. see fit and the interests of the Country are at stake there. However, when working-class organisations This is a blanket clause which frightens me. are prepared to act in the interests of the country, The more I consider it the more it frightens me. If the Minister says they do not have the right to do the Government wants to control unions, if it SO. wants to keep them within the system, the unions have to put up with what is in this Bill. But it is The Minister has no idea how the Waterside an impossible and unbelievable situation that Workers Federation, or any other union, conducts people who are not unionists, who are not its affairs. They have a record of which they can registered under the commission-people who are be proud. merely employees--can be controlled in this way Mr O'CONNOR: The member for Freman tle by the Industrial Commission. said I showed abysmal ignorance. Who could be What does the Government want? It cannot more ignorant than he on this matter? The have it both ways. It will have it all ways because member has just displayed his ignorance by this is a shocking clause and the import of it referring to the Seamen's Union which does not frightens me. It does niot matter how good the come under this Bill. This is a State Bill and that commission is, how kind it is, or how union is a. Federal union. This Bill will not affect understanding it is; the fact remains that people it. who do not enjoy any privileges under the Mr Skidmore: Yes it will. You can have a joint commission will be told to do things by the sitting of the State and Federal commissions. 4620 4620ASSEMBLY]

Mr O'CONNOR: This State has no control up there and conduct the ballot. However, this over the Seamen's Union. has very little to do with this clause. If members Mr Skcidmore: It has control in a joint sitting of opposite want to make a big issue of this, it simply the commissions. indicates they know nothing about the Bill. This Dr Troy: You will find there is a State clause does not refer to computers; it refers to registered Seamen's Union. secret ballots. Mr O'CONNOR: Such matters would be If the commission directs a secret ballot shall handled in agreement with the Federal be conducted in the Pilbara, Port Hedland, or in commission. any other area, it can ask people, such as the registrar, to ensure that it is handled properly. If Mr Skidmore: It is not in agreement with the there were no registrar in the area, and an urgent Federal people. It is the agreement of the two issue was involved, the commission has the commissions. authority to allow the people to carry out the Mr O'CONNOR: The Federal commission is ballot on the site. The commission has strong one of the two bodies involved. It has a say in powers under the legislation, but these powers are these matters. necessary in the interests of the community. Mr Skidmore: It is not the only one. Mr T. H. JONES: The Minister did not refer Mr O'CONNOR: The Federal commission to the safety aspect. controls most of the waterside unions. Mr O'Connor: Yes I did. You could not have Dr Troy: There is a State registered Seamen's been listening, and I am not going to tell you Union. again. Mr O'CONNOR: The Leader of the Mr T, H. JONES: The Minister did not answer Opposition referred to the fact that there is no the questions raised. What is the situation if computer link at Port Hedland. There are workers go out on strike in relation to a safety machines at Port Hedland which tie up through a issue? The Minister hardly touched on that telex system with computers in Perth. The tickets matter, but it is extremely important in regard to may be fed in, in the same manner as they are the mining industry. When a miner goes down a here, and the results are fed into the computer in mine, the first thought he has is in relation to his Perth. safety and whether he will return at night to his Mr Davies: I am just quoting what Mr Ron wife and children. Ewing told me and he is on the board. I, and other members on this side, referred to Mr O'CONNOR: There are machines in Port the safety aspect and disputes entered into in Hedland which do the work in much the same regard to safety matters. The Minister did not way as it is done here. answer the questions we raised. Mr Davies: Now the truth is coming out. Now Mr O'Connor: Yes I did. you are realising that there is not a computer link Clause, as amended, put and passed. up. Clause 76: Enforcement of orders- Mr O'CONNOR: The Leader of the Opposition has two bob each way on every issue. Mr SKIDMORE: I should like to ask the He is the greatest punter in the State. Minister who will be subject to the 1500 fine, six months' imprisonment, or both? If a worker Mr Sodeman: He never loses. refuses to take part in a secret ballot ordered by Mr O'CONNOR: How can the Leader of the the commission, will he be liable for the penalties Opposition lose when he changes in midstream? provided in this clause? A worker may exercise Mr Davies: rhere is no computer link to Port his right to refuse to participate in a ballot at the Hedland. present time and I should like to know whether he Mr O'CONNOR: I did not say there was. will be penalised for doing so in the future. Mr Davies: Yes you did. Will a worker be subject to a $500 fine or six Mr O'CONNOR: I said there were machines months' imprisonment, simply because he says he at Port Hedland. I will explain the matter again. does not want to vote? A shop' steward who said, There are machines at Port Hedland which have a "I want nothing to do with the secret ballot" telex tie-up with the computer in Perth and the could go to gaol for six months [or what I believe tickets are fed through in that manner. Obviously is a very minor breach of the legislation. some other towns would face difficulties. In places If that is the intention behind this provision, it such as Turkey Creek someone would have to go is ludicrous. Compared to the other penalties [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979]162 4621 contained in the Bill, it appears to be unduly contained in the legislation. However, if they do severe. not carry out the steps laid down by the Mr O'CONNOR: I should like to quote commission, they will be in breach of the subclause (2) as follows- legislation. The workers cannot put up their hands A Person who refuses or rails to comply and say, "We will stay out on strike." Another with an order of the Commission under this secret ballot has to be conducted in order to Division or hinders or obstructs the carrying determine whether the men should return to work. out of any such order commits an offence The situation is not as easy as the member for against this Act. Pilbara would have us believe. The workers are bound by the provisions in the legislation. That provision is the same as the one in the Act. Mr Skidmore: Is the penalty the same? If members examine further clauses fn the Bill, they will realise that division 5 exists solely for Mr O'CONNOR: The penalty is not the same. the purpose of making strikes legal. If the I did not read the penalty. This matter is dealt Government believes problems will be solved with under section 36(q) of the Act and the only because it is easy for the unions to have a secret difference is the fact that the penalty has been ballot, it will soon realise that it is wrong and it upgraded in line with the Commonwealth penally. does not work that way. I explained earlier the penalties in this Bill have been brought into line with the Commonwealth Mr O'CONNOR: If the member was right, penalties. This provision has been in the Act for a what he said would be fair, but he is not right. It long time. It is used only when someone tries to is not obligatory for the commission to direct that obstruct or hinder the proper course of dealing ballot papers and envelopes be kept. The with disputes. commission will have very wide powers with regard to ballots, This clause does not direct the Clause put and passed. commission to retain the ballot papers. Clause 77: Ballot papers, etc., to be preserved- Mr T. H. Jones: Do ballot papers have to be used? Mr SKIDMORE: This clause indicates the manner in which ballots will be conducted. It is Mr O'CONNOR; The commission will decide. ludicrous if the Minister intends to persist with The commission may order that the papers be the argument that the commission may order the retained, there is no compulsion. preservation of ballot papers, envelopes, lists, and Mr SKIDMORE: I agree with what the other documents. I believe the Minister regrets Minister has said. I did not suggest the the fact that he mentioned the TAB. There is commission had to order the ballot papers to be more to the matter than the preservation of a retained. The point is the commission may order ballot paper when a secret ballot has been them to be retained. I am prepared to bet that if a conducted. Case after case will be brought before ballot is retained the commission would order that the commission and people Will say, "The decision the papers be retained until the union had an to return was completely wrong, because we did opportunity to appeal. No commission, or any not get a vote and we should have." It will be said justice in any court, would destroy evidence put also, "Hfe got a vote, but he is not a member so he forward to establish a case. should not have one." There is appeal machinery for individuals who It is not possible for a secret ballot to be are not even members of unions to take action conducted in one day, as the Government against unions when they believe there has been a envisages. The matter is not as easy as some breach of the rules. I do not want to make an Government members would have us believe. We issue of this, but it is impossible to achieve the have said all along that the provisions in the Bill objective set out by the Minister because it will will slow down the process of solving a dispute not be possible to hold a one-day ballot. The and that they will not be effective. sooner the whole sorry mess is forgotten, the 1 want to refer to a point made by the member better because it will not work. for Pilbara. He said that if a secret ballot is Clause put and passed. conducted under the terms of division 5 and the workers go out on a legal strike, and if they then Clause 78: Persons having the conduct of have a vote on the shop floor and decide to remain ballots- on strike, it is no longer legal. Mr O'CONNOR: I move an amendment- Firstly, the workers are involved in a legal Page 89, line 2I-Delete the words "any strike, because they have abided by the provisions person or persons". 4622 4622ASSEMBLY]

This amendment is necessary because the clause Mr DAVIES: If ever the Minister was having restricts the conduct of a ballot to those people two bob each way, he is having it now. He said referred to in subclause (2) of clause 75. It is not the unions do not have to pay, and then he added, intended that ocher persons should be involved. "unless the Attorney General decides". What Amendment put and passed. does the Minister mean? Three-quarters of the way through the clause it is stated that the union Mr SKIDMORE: When the member for Melville was speaking on the 7th November, he shall pay, and then there is a proviso, as often mentioned appears in these types of Bills. The proviso is that the fact that the union would have to in certain circumstances, pay for ihe ballot. The Minister interjected and if the Attorney General said, "That is not so. The union does not have to or the Minister for Justice feels t 'here is a just pay the bill." case, the State will pay for the taking of the ballot. There is then irovision to authorise the Mr O'Connor: It will be up to the commission, Attorney Genera! to draw on the public account or thi Attorney General. to pay for the ballot. Mr SKIDMORE: At page 90 of the Bill What is the situation to be? Is it the intention subclause (5) sets out that the expenses of a ballot of the Government that the unions shall pay, or is conducted under this division, but not including it the intention of the Government that the the salary of an officer of the State performing a Government shall pay? Or, will we have to wait duty in relation to the ballot, shall be borne by the and see? union concerned. Mr O'Connor: It will depend on the Mr O'Connor: Unless! circumstances at the time and the decision of the Mr SKIDMORE: Very well, the criterion set Attorney General. out in the Bill is that first of all the union shall Mvr DAVIES: What are the circumstances bear the cost, "unless". which are likely to exist? Mr O'Connor: Correct. Mr O'Connor: That will depend on the Mr SKIDMORE: Unless the Attorney General situation. decides otherwise. Mr Tonkin: It will be our Attorney General Mr O'Connor: They are very important words.. next year, any way. Mr SKIDMORE: The Minister said the union Mr O'Connor: Then, what are you worrying shall not bear the cost. about? Mr O'Connor: That is not so. The member who Mr DAVIES: That is right. We are back to the was speaking said that they "shall" pay the cost, situation where a union will not have a right to and I said, "That is not so." call for a secret ballot. That will be decided by the Mr SKIDMORE: The Minister said, "That is commission. The commission, having decided that not so. The union does not have to pay the bill." circumstances exist which warrant a secret ballot, can then direct the union to pay for it. What kind Mr O'Connor: That is correct, unless the of justice is that? Attorney General acts the union will pay the bill. Mr O'Connor: The union may request it. Mr SKIDMORE: I do not believe there will be many instances where the Attorney General will Mr DAVIES: The union has a responsibility, say the union will not have to foot the bill for particularly with regard to any industrial matter, strike action. The Attorney General will say that to report that matter to the registrar. It need not there has been a secret ballot and that the request a ballot; it has a responsibility, and a unionists will return to work. However, he will not penalty is provided if the union does not carry out say, out of the goodness of his heart, that the that responsibility. So, do not let us have any union will not pay the expenses involved. nonsense about what the position might be. Mr O'Connor: You are not right there either. I merely raise that point because of the suggestion that the unions will not have to pay the Mr DAVIES: The commission will decide bill. whether there is to be a secret ballot. Mr DAVIES: If the Minister believes that the Mr O'Connor: But the union can request it. unions will not have to pay the bill, why not make Mr DAVIES: That is correct, but if it results in that quite clear and move to amend the industrial action, the union has a responsibility to subclause? report the matter to the registrar. Mr O'Connor: I did not say they did not have Mr O'Connor: There need not necessarily be a to pay the bill. secret ballot on that basis. [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979] 462342

Mr DAVIES: But (here will not be a secret Cant and humbug; that is what this Bill is all ballot under any circumstances unless the about. That is the kindest thing that can be said commission decides. The commission will decide for it. If there is any justice, the responsibility there is justification for a secret ballot, and then should be the other way. If the commission decide that the union will pay for it. That is the decides there is justification for a secret ballot, simple situation. and it orders one to be held, unless the ballot is Mr O'Connor: The union may request the particularly requested by a union, the commission to conduct a ballot because the union Government should pay. I cannot imagine what may want it. the situation will be but perhaps the Minister, in his wisdom, will be able to enlighten me. Mr DAVIES: In that situation the union can pay for it, but we will have a situation where the This provision is completely unacceptable in its ballot need not be related to an industrial matter. present form and it demonstrates to us the fuzzy It could be that the views of people, who are not thinking which exists in the heads of people who even union members, would decide an issue. were the authors of the Bill, and it also demonstrates how little they know about Those people could request a secret ballot, and industrial matters. there is a responsibility to advise the commission. The commission will then decide on the Mr SKIDMORE: I have made an estimate of justification for the secret ballot. The union may -the cost to the AMWSU of a ballot. The union not exist because it may have been deregistered, has some 10 000 members. I have estimated the and may not be recognised, but still exist and call printing of ballot papers at $30 a thousand, which itself a union without registration but it will be involves $300. I have allowed $60 for envelopes, told to pay for a secret ballot. A union in that but nothing for the return envelopes so that situation could be sent broke within three months. estimate should be approximately $120. I have What kind of justice is that? What kind of Bill estimated postage at $4 000 to send out the ballot has this Government brought to Parliament? papers; $2 000 for them to be sent out and $2 000 There is a strange silence from the other side of for them to be returned. That cost could be the Chamber. Secret ballots will be forced on involved merely because the commission decides unions by the commission, and the unions will that the AMWSU should have a secret ballot. then be told to pay for those ballots. Mr O'Connor: Thai is approximately 40c a Why not make the responsibility the other head. way? If the commission orders a ballot, the Mr SKIDMORE: I do not care whether the Attorney General shall pay unless there is a cost is only 30c a head, it would still amount to specific request from the union to hold a secret $4 360, approximately. The union would have to ballot, Is that not a fairer way to do it? Under the find that sum of money every time the present proposition a union could be sent commission decided there should be a secret bankrupt within three months. The Government ballot. As the Leader of the Opposition said, the seems happy to do this kind of thing. commission will be able to direct the union to The situation now is that people in industry can hold a secret ballot. say that something concerns them and there I raise this question because I believe it is an should be a secret ballot, whether those involved intolerable imposition. If a secret ballot is ordered are members of a union or not. The commission by the commission, it should be paid for by the will be able to say, "Right, we will conduct a commission. As the Leader of the Opposition said, secret ballot." The commission will then be able if the union itself requests that the attitude of its to order how the ballot will be conducted, and no members should be ascertained, it would be fair expense spared. I wonder what cost would be and equitable for the union to pay for the ballot. involved in hiring the TAB computer for the If such conditions were imposed on my little union secret ballot. The TAB, being what it is, would it would be out of business with one ballot. not allow the use of its computer without any Clause, as amended, put and passed. payment. Mr Davies: Aren't we going to have a response The commission will be able to decide that a from the Minister? secret ballot shall be held even though a union has Mr O'Connor: I replied to you. not askced for it. The commission will decide it is justified and necessary, and even though the Mr DaV'-s: No justification was given for the union may not be registered and may not have action. It is disgraceful that there was no answer. any standing it will pay for the secret ballot. Clauses 79 and 80 put and passed. 4624 4624[ASSEMBLY]

Clause U1: Appointment of Industrial The Government is trying deliberately to Magistrates- provoke industrial disputation. I have quoted Mr O'CONNOR; There is a printing error in figures already to indicate that this is the this clause that I wish to adjust. Government's favourite game; the figures prove that throughout Australia Liberal Governments Mr Davies: Sloppy drafting. take such action. Mr O'CONNOR: I move an amendment- Mr O'CONNOR: This provision cannot be Page 91, line 15-Delete the expression related to the provisions in the Road Traffic Act. "I1I1" and substitute the expression "113". As the member for Morley mentioned, the rates Amendment put and passed. are being changed continually. Clause, as amended, put and passed. Mr Tonkin: It is an employer's job to know the Clause 82 put and passed. award. Clause 83: Enforcement of awards and orders Mr Skidmore: It is also the employee's job to of the Commission- know the award. Mr TONKIN: This clause provides that the Mr O'CONNOR: The member for Swan has industrial magistrate can order the payment of contradicted himself again. sums of money underpaid to an employee only for Mr Skidmore: Did I? Let Hansard show I the last 12 months. contradicted myself. Senior Commissioner Kelly recommended a Mr O'CONNOR: The member for Swan stated period of something like six years, and this would that many union members do not know their be in line with the Federal legislation. Why actual awards. There could be collusion where should a person who has had his wages stolen employers and employees agree to pay a certain from him not be entitled to money underpaid rate below the award wage. I believe in such cases further back than 12 months? There is no that both should be prosecuted for breaking the justification whatever for limiting the period, and law. we oppose the clause for that reason. Mr T. H. Jones: They have to be registered Our other reason for opposing the clause is that now. an employer who has underpaid an employee can Mr O'CONNOR: Some of them-not all. be convicted and fined only if it can be proved Mr T. H. Jones: Any agreement has to be that his action was deliberate, Ignorance of the registered. law is never accepted as a defence. An employer could say, "I had no idea I was under-paying my Mr O'CONNOR: Not necessarily. An employee." How could anyone prove otherwise? employer and an employee could have an arrangement between themselves that is not Let us consider this sayme principle in reference registered. It can happen that they have a falling to the Road Traffic Act. If a person were out, and I believe the employee is as wrong as is prosecuted for travelling over the speed limit, he the employer. The employer could be made to pay to drive could say, "I did not deliberately want the additional money to the employee, but why faster than the speed limit." The same principle should he be prosecuted as well? could extend into many other areas of the law, and then citizens everywhere would be able to These awards are changing constantly and it break the law with impunity. All they would need may be that an employcr may operate for some to say in defence was, "I did not do it time without knowing that an award has been deliberately." changed. This provision will encourage employers to Mr Tonkin: You will never get a conviction break the law. They will not be fined even if they under this provision. are caught, and if they get away with it for More Mr O'CONNOR: I do not agree with that. than 12 months, it is a sheer cop to them-they Obviously if an employer refuses to pay the right will need to repay only the last 12 months. amount and he is challenged by the employee, it The Government claims this Bill is to resolve can be proved that he has set about deliberately to industrial disputes. However, if the industrial defraud the employee of the amount involved. magistrate is prevented from enforcing the law in Not only would he have to make up the this way, it will be a potent cause of disputation. employee's pay for 12 months, but also he would If the trade unions believe that their members are face the likelihood of a $1000 fine. not being protected by the law, they will take the I believe that a period of 12 months is law into their own hands, and quite rightly, too. reasonable. I know Comm.issioner Kelly suggested ITuesday, 13th November, 1979] 462562 a longer period, but I do not agree with him. The Mr T. H. Jones: You told mec before they can provision is in the Bill because I believe it is make a deal. reasonable. Mr O'Connor: Yes, an independent deal. Mr SKCIDMORE: I am surprised at the double Mr SKIDMORE: I thought that was illegal standard adopted by the Minister. Previously he under the provisions of clause 114. 1 will not refer has said that such-and-such is in the Federal Act to that, because the Deputy Chairman (Mr Watt) and therefore we should be consistent. Also, he will not let me. has said that many of the provisions in this Bill The Government says it wants industrial peace; operate in the Federal field, and therefore they it wants everyone to have a fair crack of the whip. should be included in our industrial legislation. Why then will it not give my workers at Midland I believe that the period laid down in the the opportunity to recover the $6 000 or so that Federal legislation is six years and I I months. I has been stolen from each of them over a period would like to tell the Minister that in a recent of four years? I would like to hear the Minister's case in Midland which an industrial inspector comments as to whether that is an unreasonable took up for me, the employees had been request. underpaid for four years. The inspector did' a very Mr T. H. JONES: The Minister cannot deny good job on this case, but even under the existing that Federal decisions flow on to this State. legislation, back pay could not be reimbursed Frequently a State union cannot get a favourable beyond a 12-month period. I would like to point decision until there has been some Federal out that for each employee it amounted to SI1400, movement. A Federal court could allow or $1 500, in that period. This means that the retrospectivity beyond the 12-month period and employer had had the advantage of $6 000 or the workers in the Eastern States would receive $7 000 which he should have paid to each Worker, greater benefits than would the workers in this and four of five were involved. State. Mr O'Connor: Was he fined? Mr O'Connor: I would not. agree to Mr SKIDMORE: As yet he has not been fined. retrospectivity beyond. the 12 months anyhow. I had great difficulty getting the department That would send employers broke. I interested in this case in the first place. I do not Mr Skidmore: But the employeei are being want to go into this matter as I might embarrass robbed now; they are going broke. the Minister. Mr O'Connor: I said the employers would go Mr O'Connor: You will not embarrass me. broke and the employees would be out of jobs. Mr SKIDMORE: It might embarrass Mr Skidmore: They would be better out of jobs somebody, and that is not my purpose tonight. than being robbed. The Minister has suggested that a 12-month Mr T. H. JONES: This is the system. The period is not unreasonable. I would like to refer Federal decision is the yardstick for a lot of State him to the Federal Statute of Limitations which award decisions. A Federal union may be arguing provides a period of seven years for debt recovery. a case with an employer for more than 12 months It would be fair and equitable for this period to be and it may take two years to get to court. The the same. flow-on decision applies in the Eastern States, but As I understood it, the Minister said that an not in this State. This is the danger inherent in employer and an employee could have an this clause. agreement, but under the terms of clause 114, it is Mr SKIDMORE: When the Minister is in a not possible to contract outside the terms of an position of vulnerability, he acts like a tortoise, award. If a contract is outside the terms of an and retreats into his shell and refuses to reply. award, the worker is entitled to claim the award I asked the Minister to say whether he felt it rate and any other benefits at a given time. These was fair and reasonable to apply the same are referred to as sweetheart deals, and in such thinking under Federal jurisdiction to the State deals the employee finds frequently that his area.' I pointed out one instance where four conditions deteriorate, and eventually he workers were robbed by their employer for some approaches his union to say that he has been got four years. I understand from the Minister's at. interjection that he thinks such a situation is all Mr O'Connor: It may be an illegal deal, but right. they can do it. Mr O'Connor: They must have had a pretty Mr SKIDMORE: I say no more! poor union secretary to let it go on for so long. 4626 4626[ASSEMBLY]

Mr SKIDMORE: These workers wanted to go amount or dollars, and the correct wage from that to the union but were told by their boss, "You go point onwards. to your union and I will sack you." They came to The point is that a boss can well afford to me, and I said to the boss, "if you sack one of underpay his workers for years because he knows those workers I will stand you up in the market consideration will be taken only of the preceding place in Midland." The Minister should not have 12 months. He could be $7000 ahead by the time the idea these workers did not want to go to their he goes before the commission and is fined. union.- Surely it is not unreasonable that if Federa] Workers need protection, for a period longer jurisdiction provides for a longer period, it should than 12 months. There can be no justice if an also apply in the State jurisdiction. The great employer is allowed to rob his employees for gospel is that Federal jurisdiction is needed, years, and then be required to refund wages for because of the Moore v. Doyle case, of unions in only the preceding 12 months. dispute, of the need to avoid combined sittings Mr O'Connor: The present Act provides for 12 and sessions of both jurisdictions and of the months, and that has worked satisfactorily for a already stated intention of the Federal long time. I have agreed to continue that Government to implement complementary provision. legislation in the Federal jurisdiction. Mr SKIDMORE: The Minister for Labour and It seems to me the Government's whole policy Industry has said that he and his Government are by refusing to grant a period longer than 1.2 quite prepared to let workers be robbed, and do months is to give the entire advantage to the boss, nothing about it. The Minister can shake his head and to hell with the worker. I believe I am not as much as he likes; I will show him documents being unreasonable in asking for some protection proving what I say is correct. for the workers from unscrupulous employers who are prepared to rob them blind. Mr O'Connor: Why didn't they come to you earlier? Clause put and a division taken with the following result- Mr SKIDMORE: They did not because they Ayes 27 were very frightened employees. Mr Clarko Mr O'Connor Mr O'Connor: So they let it go on all that Sir Charles Court Mr Old time? Mr Cowan Mr O'Neil Mr Conec Mr Ridge Mr SKIDMORE: They became aware of it Dr Da dou Mr Rushton only recently. One of the employees went to the Mr Grayden Mr Sibson Mr Grewar Mr Sodeman boss and said, "I have just read an article in the Mr Hassell Mr Spriggs newspaper, and I do not think you are paying us Mr Herzfeld Mr Tubby the right amount of money." The boss replied, "I Mr Laurance Mr Watt know I am underpaying you and if you go to your Mr MacKin non Mr Williams Mr McPharlin Mr Young union about it, I will sack you." Mr Mensaros. Mr Shalders Mr Bryce: Would you describe that as "bully Mr Nanovich (Teller) tactics"? Noes 19 Mr Barnett Mr Karman Mr SKIDMORE: This clause will not provide Mr Bertram Mr Jamnieson the worker with adequate protection. If the Mr Bryce Mr T. H. Jones Minister will not agree Mr B. T. Burke Mr Mclver to extend the period, he Mr T. J. Burke Mr Skidmore should at least have the decency to say the worker Mr Carr Mr Tonkin should not be robbed in this way by an Mr Davies Dr Troy unscrupulous employer. Mr H. D. Evans Mr Wilson Mr T. D. Evans Mr Bateman I give credit to the inspectors of the Minister's Mr Grill (Teller) department. However, when they approached me Pairs on this matter, I asked them not- to cause Ayes Noes disruption at the work place, because these Mr P.V. Jones Mr Taylor Mrs Craig Mr Pearce workers would get the sack. I advised the workers Mr Crane Mr Hodge to find themselves another job, and this is what they have done. However, they have now decided Clause thus passed. to claim all past moneys owing to them. Prior to Clauses 84 to 88 put and passed. this decision, they were on the point of accepting Clause 89: Sheriff, Bailiffs, and members of a deal with the employer that he pay them 'IC" Police Force to be officers of the Court- [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979]162 4627

Mr O'CON NOR: I move an amendment- Clause put and a division taken with the the words "rules following result- Page 97, line 34-Delete Ayes 27 of Court" and substitute the word Mr Clarko Mr O'Connor ".regulations". Sir Charles Court Mr Old Mr Cowan Mr O'Neil Mr Coyne Mr Ridge The legislation contains an incorrect expression; it Drfladour Mr Rushton should be "regulations". Mr Grayden Mr Sibson M r Grewar Mr Sodeman Amendment put and passed. Mr H-assell Mr Spriggs Mr Herzfeld Mr Tubby Mr Laurance Mr Watt Clause, as amended, put and passed. Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams Mr MePharlin Mr Young Clause 90 put and passed. Mr Mensaros Mr Shalders Mr Nanovich (Teller) Clause 91: Representation- Noes 19 Mr O'CONNOR: I move an amendment- Mr Barnett Mr Harman Mr Bertram Mr Jamieson Page 98, line 24-Delete the word "In" Mr Bryce Mr T. H. Jones Mr B. T. Burke Mr Mclver and substitute the passage "Subject to this Mr T. J. Burke Mr Skidmore section, in". Mr Carr Mr Tonkin Mr Davies Dr Troy Amendment put and passed. Mr H. D. Evans Mr Wilson Mr T. D. Evans Mr Bateman Mr O'CONNOR: I move an amendment- Mr Grill (Teller) Pairs Page 98-Insert after subclause (2) the Ayes Noes following new subelause to stand as Mr P. V. Jones Mr Taylor Mrs Craig Mr Pearce subclause (3)- Mr Crane Mr Hodge (3) A person who is not a legal practitioner within the meaning of this Clause thus passed. Act but engages in the practice of the Clause 97: Certain strikes and lock-outs law outside the State shall not appear as prohibited-. agent in proceedings before the Court. Mr O'CONNOR: I move an amendment- I have previously explained to the Committee the Page 104, line 8-Insert after the word reasons for this amendment. "ordered" the words "or induced". Amendment put and passed. This amendment is designed to ensure that the provisions in the clause cover any person who Clause, as amended, put and passed. takes indirect action to induce members of a Clauses 92 to 95 put and passed. union to take part in a strike or lock-out. Clause 96: Power of Commission in Court Amendment put and a division taken with the following result- Sessions to declare certain persons to be Ayes 27 Government officers- Mr Clarko Mr O'Connor Sir Charles Court Mr Old Mr TONKIN: We oppose this provision which Mr Cowan Mr O'Neil takes out of the jurisdiction of the commission Mr Coy ne Mr Ridge Dr Dad our Mr Rushton officers who are employees of the Houses of Mr Grayden MrSibson Parliament and of the Governor's Establishment. Mr Grewar Mr Sodenian Mr Hassell Mr Spriggs I will not canvass this matter again, because it has Mr Herzfeld Mr Tubby been discussed many times before on another Bill, Mr Laurance Mr Watt and also earlier in the debate on this Bill. We do Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams Mr McPharlin Mr Young not believe these people should be left without any Mr Mensaros M r Shalders protection and accordingly, we oppose the clause. Mr Nanovich (Teller) 4629 4628[ASSEMBLY]

Noes 19 debating a Bill which says that people who are Mr Barnett Mr Harman selling their labour are not permitted to withdraw Mr Bertram Mr Jlamieson Mr Bryce Mr T. H. Jones it. People wonder why we do not have good Mr B.T. Burke Mr Mclver industrial relations in Australia. We will never Mr T. J. Burke Mr Skidmore have good industrial relations in Australia if we Mr Carr Mr Tonkin persist with that system. Mr Davies Dr Troy Mr H. D. Evans Mr Wilson Members can call me .Nostradamus of the 20th Mr T. D. Evans Mr Bateman century if they like, but I prophesy that we will Mr Grill never have good industrial relations in Australia Pairs as long as we have this biased, unfair, and unjust Ayes Noes Mr P. V. Jones Mr Taylor legislation. What is worse, however, is the Mrs Craig M r Pearce prejudiced attitude towards labour relations Mr Crane Mr Hodge which forms the sub-strata of the legislation. Amendment thus passed. The Government tells the capitalists they can Mr TONKIN: We oppose the clause as do what they like. They can spend their money on amended. It provides that a strike is an offence wicked women or on their wives, who may also be unless a secret ballot has been conducted. A wicked women. Capitalists can set up a factory secret ballot can be conducted only pursuant to and employ people, but if they decide six months the commission's orders. In other words, the later they are not receiving as much as they would commission may decide not to order a secret like, and prefer wicked women anyway, they can ballot and, therefore, the members of the union take their money out of that factory and use it who have asked for it commit an offence if they elsewhere. There is no penalty for doing that. No- go on strike. That is an unjust situation. one questions the God-given right of the owners of The decision as to whether a secret ballot shall capital to do that. No-one passes a law to say that be held is in the hands of the commission and if they cannot do that. the commission does not order a secret ballot, and We can imagine the Premier frothing at the the unionists go out on strike, they have mouth if we introduced a Bill designed to force committed an offence. That is quite wrong. It is owners of capital into that situation. However, if unjust also to suggest that if a trade union official all one has to sell is one's labour and if one or employee induces anyone to go out on strike, he decides that, because of someone else, one is not commits an offence. receiving a fair return for that labour, it is illegal "Tnduced" may mean that a union official said, to go on strike. "Your real wages have been dropping steadily in We know it has been illegal to go on strike in relation to price rises over the past few months Western Australia for many years. However, we and I suggest you take direct action." We have to have had quite a few strikes. What kind of look clearly at the question of striking. If a Government do we have when it writes a law, country does not have the right to strike, a system which cannot be enforced, into the Statute book? of slavery exists. Do we want a law such as this to be enforced? Do we want to be like Nazi Germany? Do we want to If there is a society where people are forced to go to work against their will, that is a system of be like the Soviet Union? I certainly do not want this country slavery. Earlier tonight the member for Fremantle to have such policies. Part of our said that the Government does freedom is the freedom to withdraw one's labour not seem to in the same way as part of the freedom question the right of the owners of capital to of capitalism is to decide they are not getting an adequate return on withdraw capital or refuse to sell their capital so they should move elsewhere. commodities unless a certain price is met. Owners of capital can go to another State, Thousands of strikes occurred throughout another country, or enter another industry. No Western Australia today and yet no-one objected. penalties are levied against them. That is their People refused to sell cars unless a certain price God-given right. was paid. They were on strike. People refused to sell tomatoes I am aware some people believe we are living in unless a certain price was met. They the modern 20th century; but when we look at were on strike. that situation it can be seen that we are still in the Mr Sibson: That is not true. dark ages- The owners of capital have the right to Mr TONKIN: The member who has just withdraw their capital and go on strike at any interjected should try to buy tomatoes at the price time they wish. However, because the commercial he wants to pay for them and he will see I am classes are in control of the Parliament, we are speaking the truth. [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979] 424629

Mr Sibson: The workers go on strike and farce with ACTU Solo because if they drive the up prices. distance to gain the discount they find they have Mr TONKIN: If a person selling tomatoes used up the petrol they tried to save. ACTU Solo demands a certain price and I offer him half that is not independent. It has the same supplier as price, if he refuses to sell me those tomatoes, he is other stations. The whole oil industry is tied; it is on strike. If a person selling clothes refuses to a gigantic cartel, without proper competition. If I accept the money someone might like to offer went to half a dozen different service stations I him, he is on strike. would find that there is very little variation because the discount has something to do with the So entrenched in the attitude of society is the wholesaler; it has very little to do with right of owners of goods not to sell those goods competition between, say, BP, Caltex, and Solo, If unless their price is met, that we do not even there were true competition in the Australian haggle and offer less. We do not say to a economy it would be a different matter. salesman, "You are asking $100 for that suit. I think it is worth S90. How about accepting that?" I suggest members obtain some books from the We do not haggle, because we believe these Parliamentary Library on the economics of people have the divine right to set their own Australia. They will then understand the extent of prices. It is their article and they can set their competition in Australia. There is very little. price but as soon as we speak of labour a person Mr Sodernan: There is competition. cannot set his price. In fact, we are making it a Mr TON KIN: There is a certain level, but this criminal offence for anyone to argue about the level is controlled by the wholesaler. price of his labour. For example, an owner of a delicatessen selling Mr Sodeman: That is totally untrue. In fact, it icecream has very little capacity to undercut other is the opposite. If labour had to compete on the delicatessens. He receives his icecream from a same basis as enterprise does to keep prices down, wholesaler, so there is very little scope indeed for then it would be an interesting situation. One competition. Even then, no-ne denies the right of could go next door and get something at a a person to refuse to sell his commodity if he does cheaper price if the other price is too high. not receive the price he asks. Mr TONKIN: That is provided there is In other words, it is accepted that the owners of competition in our society. We have practices in goods are at liberty to go on strike, but the owners restraint of trade; there is very little competition of labour are not. That is wholly unacceptable. It in Australia. Of the OECD countries-there are is saying that we want an unjust system, 22, and we have to use these countries as an industrial disputation, and we do not want to example because it is difficult to compare move to better industrial relations as other ourselves with Zimbabwe and the Soviet Union countries have, and we are making sure that this because they have different economic cqntinues. systems-we have the worst record as far as Mr SKIDMORE: It will be interesting to see practices in restraint of trade are concerned. We the outcome when clause 97 is applied. In other do not have an effective number of safeguards, so words, if a union determines that it wishes to have what the member for Pilbara says is nonsense. a legal strike, it has to carry out certain functions For example, if a person were to buy breakfast under clause 97(2). This subclause lays down the foods from a supermarket he would find that conditions under which a union may have a secret there is very little difference in the price because ballot and that it must be conducted pursuant to they are produced by the same people, or one division 5 of part 11. When we refer to division 5, group is in collusion with another so the prices are part II,- then we are aware of what we are similar. debating. All this means is that, in essence, it is a Mr Sodeman: Totally untrue! Are you waste of time having that particular clause in the suggesting that Sanitarium Health Foods are in Bill. Its meaning is that if a union is aware that collusion with Kelloggs. in this State? its members will be going out on strike, if it approaches the commission and says it will be Mr TONKIN: There is very little genuine going on strike and asks permission for a secret competition in Australia. Even with our petroll ballot, then it is legal. stations there is very little difference in prices. Strikes are illegal under the Bill. There is no Mr Sodeman: Are you saying ACTII is in legality given to strikes under this Bill. All it collusion with Mobil? provides is that the commissioner, after becoming Mr TONKIN: The member knows very well aware of the fact that a union will be going on that very few people have the opportunity to deal strike, can say, "I will give you a legal strike by 4630 4630[ASSEMBLY] allowing you to hold a secret ballot." I know (a) a cessation or limitation of work or a commissioners are fair-minded people,. but I do refusal to work by an employee acting in not believe they will break their own Act. This combination or under a common cannot happen because if the commissioner says understanding with another employee or that he is aware that someone will be going on person; and strike and therefore he will exercise his By that definition when a man says to his wife jurisdiction under division 5 of part I1 and will that he has decided to withdraw his labour, it allow a secret ballot, there is no bther way a union constitutes a strike. I am not surprised we have can have a legal strike. There is no other way to horse laughter from. the back benches of the sanction a strike. Government. The member concerned has never In essence, one can make a strike legal only if worked in his life; he sold secondhand cars before one does two things: one can conduct a secret he came here. ballot of members, anid, secondly, if the majority However, to return to the matter, the strike by of members vote in favour of the strike, it is legal. the workers was declared illegal and those men For a lock-out the position is the same. The clause were ordered back to work, but they decided to states "employees or employers", but I have never resign and seek work elsewhere. heard of a situation where an employer could go The definition of "strike" reads as follows- to the commission and say, "I want to have a lock-out and I have held a secret ballot with the (b) a refusal or neglect to offer for or accept members of the board of directors and we agree." employment in the industry in which he is usually employed This is completely unnecessary arbitration by a person acting and is in combination or under a common not going to make strikes legal at all. understanding with another employee or Very simply, a person or union cannot go to a person, commissioner and say, "I am going on strike, What that means is, a court can in fact which is illegal" and expect the commissioner to conscript someone to work in an industry against say, "It is okay, you may have a secret ballot and his will. That is what happened in the incident I go on strike." It is like saying to the mentioned. The workers were directed back to commissioner, "Break your own Act". that particular job. As the shadow Minister for The Opposition opposes this and I hope the Labour and Industry has pointed out, one of the Minister can tell me how it will be possible for the primary freedoms that a worker has is in fact his commission to allow the workers or a union to right to withdraw labour, and of course he does have a secret ballot on a strike issue. The Minister that frequently in common with other people. He has filled me with great hopes Of receiving an has that right which allows him to increase his answer, but no doubt my hopes will not be price for his labour at the market place. fulfilled and I will receive no information from Workers understand, even if people in the him. Government do not, that they have more in Dr TROY: In 1963 John Brown Construction common with one another than they have Company was building an extension for the differences. They can get more by sticking Kwinana Oil Refinery. At that time the together. In fact, it is very clearly seen throughout conditions and wages in the industry, and in many industries where workers rely on acting in construction work generally in Western Australia, union with other workers for their very life. For were quite low. example, if a Person works in a coalmine he relies A mobile work force was attracted to Western on his fellow workers for his life. It is interesting Australia. These men were prepared to go to know that in this country there appliei in anywhere in Western Australia for work. relationship to the mining industry a union However, through a chain of events these workers, con trol of contracts and in some cases a company acting in concert with one another, decided to go control of contracts. on strike in order to improve their conditions. The It is interesting to note that the death rate Industrial Commission, under its Act, declared among miners is lower where the union controls that their action was illegal. The definition which the contracts. existed under the old Act is much the same as the It seems to me that clause 97 takes away the one which exists now. I think it is worth while very fundamental right of a worker by making it reading the definition which applies to "strikes." illegal for him to strike, and 1 think this clause It reads as follows- should be struck out. [Tuesday, I 3th November, 19791 463163

Clause, as amended, put and a division taken Mr TONKIN: We certainly oppose this clause. with the following result- It provides that the employer is not permitted to Ayes 27 injure an employee in his employment by reason Mr Clarko Mr O'Connor of the fact that he is an officer or a member of a Sir Charles Court Mr Old union; but it does nothing about the coercion Mr Cowan Mr O'Neil Mr Coyne Mr Ridge which may be exercised by an employer on a Dr Dadour Mr Rushton person who may try to join a union. A group of Mr Grayden Mr Sibson employees might not belong to a union and then Mr Grewar Mr Sodeman Mr Hassell Mr Sprig gs decide they would like to join a union because Mr Herzfeld Mr Tubby they are being badly ripped off. There is no Mr Laurance Mr Watt protection for them when they decide to join a Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams union. In other words, when they look as though Mr McPharlin Mr Young Mr Mensaros Mr Shalders they are going to join a union they can be sacked, Mr Nanovich and there is nothing illegal about that as far as Noes 19 this legislation is concerned. Mr Barnett Mr Harman Mr Bertram Mr Jamieson Mr O'Connor: Oh yes there is. Mr Bry M r T. H-.Jones Mr TONKIN: Can the Minister show me Mr B.TBurke Mr M ctver Mr T. J.Burke Mr Skidmore where that is made illegal? If he reads clause 100 Mr Carr Mr Ton kin carefully he will see an employer is not allowed to Mr Davies Dr Troy injure a person in his employment by reason of Mr H. D. Evans Mr Wilson Mr T. D. Evans Mr Bateman the fact that he is an officer or a member of a Mr Grill union, but it does not say anything about a person Pairs who is not a member of a union but who wishes to Ayes Noes join a union. Under the present Act we have had Mr P.V. Jones Mr Tayior Mrs Craig Mr Pearce cases where employers refused to employ people Mr Crane Mr I-odge unless they signed a form applying for exemption from union membership. Clause, as amended, thus passed. So we do not have union-free shops, not Clauses 98 and 99 put and passed. because the employees do not want to belong to a Clause 100: Employer not to act to prejudice of union but because they have been forced into this member or non-member of union- situation by the employers. This kind of doctrine Dr TROY: This clause is very central to the is very easy to enforce in a period of high whole thrust of the Bill and in my view it actually unemployment, and especially with the tight sums up what the Government is trying to do; restrictions introduced in respect of that is, to make unionism illegal. In this clause unemployment benefits. It will be easier and the Government makes it an offence for an easier for employers to intimidate employees. I employer to discriminate between a unionist and a would like the Minister to point out to me the non-unionist. The clause means that if unionists, protection afforded to employees when they are acting in concert with one another, refuse to work not actually members of a union. with someone who is not prepared to join their Mr O'CONNOR: The member for Fremantle organisation, they commit a punishable offence. made a statement that this provision discriminates In this provision the Government denies the against unionists. Of course that is not so. The very simple freedom of people to act in member for Morley stated quite clearly that it collaboration with one another, because it discriminates against an employer who prejudices contains the possibility of their saying, "We will the position of a person because he is or is riot a not act with a third person". It would make the member of a union; in other words, it cannot be particular right of unions meaningless. This taken into account either way. clause above all others really underlines what the Mr Davies: I do not think he said that. Government is all about and what it is trying to Mr Tonkin: What did I say? do; that is, make it an offence in fact for a person to act in concert with another. It is very clear Mr O'CONNOR: I agreed with what the whose interests this clause serves. It serves the member for Morley said. kind of people the Government generally Mr Davies: But that is it; I do not think he said represents; that is, the class of employers. that. 4632 4632[ASSEMB LY]

Mr O'CONNOR: Initially I referred to the As I mentioned earlier, in some cases many member for Fremantle, and then I said that the workers understand that their very life depends on member for Morley was correct in what he said. their working together. So despite what the I believe that we are all Australians, we should Minister says, we are legislating against the right act as Australians, and we should work alongside to act in union. The clause quite clearly states a person who is prepared to work properly, that an employer shall not dismiss an employee whether or not he is a member of a union. Nc-one from his employment or injure him if he is in a should be precluded from working anywhere. un ion or not in a union. That provision strikes at the very heart of unionism. The Bill provides that a person cannot be Clause put and a division taken with the dismissed because he is or is not a member of a following result- union. In the case mentioned by the honourable member, an employer could not dismiss a person Ayes 27 Mr Clarko Mr O'Connor because he becomes a member of a union. Such Sir Charles Court Mr Old an act would constitute an offence under this Mr Cowan MrO'Ncil legislation. I am confident about that. Mr Ridg Dr Dadour Mr Rushton Mr Tonkin: We arc talking of the case where a Mr Grayden Mr Sibson person is thinking of joining a union. Mr Grewar Mr Sodeman Mr Hassell MrS 'g Mr O'CONNOR: An employer cannot dismiss Mr Herzfeld M r Turbg him because he does join a union. Mr Laurance Mr Watt Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams Mr Tonkin: Or he is about to join a union. Mr McPharlin Mr Young Mr O'CONNOR: If an employer acts against Mr Mensaros Mr Shalders Mr Nanovich (Teller) an individual because he is or is not a member of Noes 18 a union, the employer commits an offence under Mr Barnett Mr Harman this measure. I assure the honourable member Mr Bertram Mr Jamieson that the point he mentioned is covered. Mr BryT Mr T. H. Jones Mr B.0. Burke Mr Mclver Dr TROY: I must belabour this point a little. I Mr T. i. Burke Mr Skidmore do not know where the Minister for Labour and Mr Carr Mr Tonkin Industry Mr Davies DrTro has gained his experience, but if, for Mr T. D. Evans Mr Wilo example, he were to go down to the wharf where Mr Grill Mr Bateman there is no compulsory unionism and there is no (Teller) preference to unionists- Pairs Ayes Noes Mr O'Connor: Do they have any non-unionists? Mr P.V. Jones Mr Taylor Dr TROY: That is true, they do not have any Mrs Craig Mr Pearce non-unionists. What they have is the right of Mr Crane Mr Hodge people who load ships to work together. If the Clause thus passed. Minister for Labour and Industry were ever Clause 101: Contempt of Commission- sacked- Mr O'CONNOR: I move an amendment- Mr Laurance: Don't hold your breath! Page 107-Add after subelause (2) the Dr TROY: -and if he applied for a job on the following new subclause to stand as wharf, the employer would say to him, "There are subclause (3)- another 100 men down here looking for work, you (3) In this section "Commission" does are not in a union, and you are not prepared to not include the Full Bench or the join a union. These men do not want to work with President. you, so we will not have you." Under this measure This subclause is necessary to exclude from the that employer would be subject to a penalty. Provisions of the clause the Full Bench or the Mr O'Connor: That is correct. President of the Industrial Commission, Dr TROY: That means that no employer could Amendment put and passed. actually dare to take the opinion of the vast Mr SKIDMORE: I rise to seek clarification of majority of workers. He has to accept the paragraph (d). The clause states a person may not ignorant position that someone who is prepared to wilfully insult or disturb a member of the hold his hand out to accept all these conditions, commission when he is exercising powers or but is not prepared to work in union with the functions under the Act. I do not quarrel with majority, will benefit. that; one cannot get anywhere by insulting a [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979] 463343 commissioner. I know one or two advocates who Mr SKIDMORE: I am not in a position to have adopted a cavalier attitude and have judge that. I am not here to moralise on issues received their just deserts. The clause then says a concerning other people. We should consider the person shall not interrupt the proceedings of the deletion of paragraph (d)(ii). If the Minister tells commission. Again, that is not unreasonable me my fears are unfounded and the commission because the commission should be allowed to will not use the provision in the manner in which I proceed in a proper manner. suggest it could be used, I may be placated. The clause then says a person shall not use insulting langauage towards a member of the Mr O'CONNOR: I assure the member the commission, or by writing or speech use words reason for the provision is to ensure adequate calculated to influence improperly a member of conduct in the Industrial Commission. The the commission or a witness before the member has said he agrees with that. With regard commission. Again. I do not argue with that. to bringing a member of the commission into What concerns me is that paragraph (d)(ii) disrepute, that would happen only when says that a person shall not by writing or speech something is said or written which is way out of use words calculated to bring the commission or a line, and not when it is a statement of fact. I have member of the commission into disrepute. consulted the dictionary to find the meaning of One would feel that where the commission is "disrepute". If any action were taken it would be acting within its jurisdiction people should not be taken by an industrial magistrate and appeal allowed to do any of the things to which I have provisions are provided. The commission would be referred in the clause. However, under paragraph foolish to take action against a person who stated (d)(ii), a person may be in trouble if he reflects a fact, even if the commission did not like it. The upon a decision of a commissioner in a union clause is not as severe as provisions applying to journal by saying. "Commissioner Jones brought other courts and, in particular, the Supreme down a decision which denied us something for Court. which we have been fighting for years, and it is about time ... ." etc. Mr Skidmore: But this is a different Mr O'Connor: That would not bring the jurisdiction; it is a workers' court. commissioner into disrepute. Mr O'CONNOR: I agree. If we find anything Mr SKIDMORE: It depends on the meaning of wrong with the provision in operation. I will not disrepute. I have seen some strong words about hesitate to have it altered. the commission written in union journals. It might be all right for the Minister to say the Clause, as amended, put and passed. commissioner would not be brought into Clauses 102 to 109 put and passed. disrepute, but the commissioner concerned may not feel that way. The clause seems to contain Clause 110: Disputes between union and its sufficient restrictive provisions in respect of the members- behaviour of advocates before the commission, Mr O'CONNOR: I move an amendment- without the inclusion of paragraph (d)(ii). If that provision were deleted the clause would still Page 110, line 24-Delete the expression contain suifficient provisions to enable the "(1 1)" and substitute the expression "(10)". commission to operate in a respectable atmosphere; because~ it is a court of law, albeit a This is a drafting amendment. court of industrial law. Whenever I have appeared Amendment put and passed. before the Industrial Commission I have shown respect for commissioners and I believe most Clause, as amended, put and passed. advocates do the same. Clauses Ill to 113 put and passed. However, a different set of rules apply outside the jurisdiction of the commission. When Clause 114: Prohibition of contracting out- unionists write in their journals sometimes they Mr TONKIN: Subclause (2) will once again castigate the commission. In the past I think some limit the recovery of any amount; action must be commissioners could have taken action for libel on commenced within 12 months from the time the occasions; fortunately for some unions they have cause of that action arose. The Opposition cannot not done that, although some Ministers do it. agree that is a reasonable kind of limitation and Mr O'Connor: Fairly, don't you think? accordingly, opposes the clause. 4634 4634ASSEMBLY]

Clause put and a division taken with the the proclaimed date, was in force under following result- the repealed Act shall, for all purposes Ayes 27 of this Act except for the purposes of Mr Clarko Mr O'Connor subsection (6) of section 41- Sir Charles Court Mr Old Mr Cowan Mr O'Neil (i) be deemed to be a consent award Mr Coy ne Mr Ridge made under this Act; and Dr 3a dour Mr Rushton Mr Grayden Mr Sibson (ii) continue in force until cancelled, Mr Grewar Mr Sodeman suspended, replaced, or retired from Mr Hassell Mr Spriggs under this Act, Mr Herzfeld Mr Tubby Mr Laurance Mr Watt If it had stopped there, we would have had no Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams argument; it would have continued conditions of Mr MePharlin Mr Young Mr Mensaros Mr Shalders awards and consent agreements registered with Mr Nanovich (Tle)the commission. This relates to all those issues Noes 18 and conditions unions have in their awards. Mr Barnett Mr Grill Mr Bertram Mr Harman However, apparently it is the Government's Mr Bryce Mr Jamieson intention not lo allow awards to contain make-up Mr B. T. Burke Mr T. H. Jones pay, and it will not Permit the commission to have Mr T. J. Burke Mr Mclver jurisdiction in this area. In addition, an award Mr Carr Mr Skidmore Mr Davies Mr Tonkin already containing that condition to which the Mr H. D. Evans Mr Wilson commission has agreed in the interests of good Mr T. D. Evans Mr Bateman industrial relations, shall be forcibly altered. (Teller) Pairs I do not believe the commission will come at Ayes Noes this. Paragraph (f) continues- Mr P. V. Jones Mr Taylor Mrs Craig Mr Pearce but not in respect of any matter which Mr Crane Mr Hodge the Commission may not include in an Clause thus passed. award or order under this Act, and any such matter is deemed to have been Clauses 115 and 1]16 put and passed. deleted from the agreement; Clause l117: Continuation- Without any case histories or arguirent, and Mr O'CONNOR: I move an amendment- without any effort to justify its attitude, and Page 115-Delete all words in ines 1S to notwithstanding the commission's decision that 17 and substitute the passage "repealed Act this is a right certain workers should have, the shall be deemed to hold office as an Government has decided for political reasons not Industrial Magistrate under and subject to to allow these conditions and, further, to prohibit this Act.". the comjmission from having jurisdiction in this area. This is retrospectivity in reverse. This amendment corrects a drafting error. I comment now on the preference clause. It Amendment put and passed. should be remembered that the unions applied for a preference clause, but their application was Mr SKIDMORE; This is my final opportunity rejected. However, the commission later brought to protest against this legislation. This clause in a preference clause and indicated it believed provides for an obnoxious form of retrospectivity. that every worker who enjoyed the benefits of an- We have argued in another case for award should become a member of that union and retrospectivity to go back further than 12 months play his part by subscribing to the finances of the for the benefit of the worker, but the Government union, thus enabling the award to be better looked rejected our pleas. This clause will remove after. The commission believed that would be retrospectively conditions workers have enjoyed good- indusLrial relations. Every worker would be for years. It is a clause which cannot be able to say, "I am a part of the decision-making countenanced by the trade union movement or the process." Opposition, This Government wants to destroy industrial Clause 117(1) states- relations. It is not interested in good industrial On and after the proclaimed date- relations. It has said, "Because we believe that the (f) subject to paragraph (h), each industrial unions using the preference clause are getting too agreement which immediately prior to big-they are becoming too strong; they are [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979]163 4635 becoming the voice in the world today, and by order of the court. They will now find that particularly in Western Australia's industrial some of those conditions will be taken away from arena-we have just got to cut them down to size. them by Act of Parliament. Members can We have to take away from some of these unions understand their feelings. the right to use the preference clause." These The Government is using a legislative bludgeon things were instigated, propagated, and put to put into effect its own peculiar philosophy. We forward by the Industrial Commission in the first know the feelings of the present Minister in instance. We now find the Government saying to regard to unions. It has been recorded in H-ansard the commission, "We will get rid of these things." debates in almost every year that he has been The Government is not concerned with the here. Perhaps if we had the previous Minister still question of industrial relations. The point that in the portfolio, this legislation would not have riles me is that the credibility of the Government reached this point. The previous Minister has and the credibility of the legislation are self- been recorded in the newspapers, although he has evident in this penultimate clause. The question I been strangely silent in this place, as being of the raise highlights the fact that the workers will not opinion that the legislation is far too repressive. now have a fair crack of the whip from the However, he has had his orders, and he will Government when it comes to industrial relations. comply with them. The Government is denying the commission its According to the weekend papers, the previous Minister is one of the contenders for one of the basic rights which it has exercised for many years' It has exercised a jurisdiction in relation to vacant Cabinet positions, if by some strange preference clauses, make-up pay, and everything chance the Government continues to govern after else that the Government now believes should not the next election. Indeed, even if it does not apply. They are the things for which the unions continue to govern, there will be a vacancy in the have struggled for many years. deputy leadership. It is strange that both the I cannot subscribe to that sort of legislation. I present Minister and the previous Minister are oppose it wholeheartedly, If the Liberal contenders for this position. Government believes that its success in having Mr O'Connor: Who do you think will be the this legislation passed will bring about industrial contenders for your position after the next peace in Western Australia, it is misleading itself. election? This will not mean industrial peace. Mr DAVIES: I do not know. That will depend The Government will not achieve industrial entirely on the result of the election. peace by taking these things from the workers in The CHAIRMAN: I ask the member to an arbitrary fashion, merely at the whim of the confine his remarks to the clause before the Liberal Party. These conditions have been won Chair. over many years. They have been won before the Mr DAVIES: I am quite happy to answer commission by argument by people representing interjections or to debate any of the red herrings the trade union movement. When it is all said and which the Government is raising. done, the question of make-up pay in awards is The uni.ons have established conditions over not a drastic thing. The unions have had it for 20 years. Now it will be ripped off us, without any many years through sheer hard work. The fear of contradiction. Government is using this legislative bludgeon to say that those conditions which have been granted I do not like it and I will not have a bar of it. I by the court will no longer exist. The court has oppose this clause of the Bill. I believe it should accepted arguments and it has agreed that the be opposed wholeheartedly. cases put up have been worthy cases. It has Mr DAVIES: The member for Swan has put agreed that the results should be in favour of the adequately the feelings of the Opposition in employees. However, those conditions will exist no regard to this. Once the Bill is proclaimed, If longer because the Government of the day has a there is any bitterness associated with the political philosophy which denies many of the Government and the Bill it must surely be in accepted standards in regard to trade unions. regard to this clause. How often did the Government go into court to The unions are not grossly financed institutions oppose any of these items which it now says -are by any means. They have worked on shoe-string not industrial matters? How many times did the budgets over the years. They have suffered from Government appear? How many times did it lack of expertise and definition. By sheer attempt to intervene? What did it do in the courts determination and application they have been by way of argument to try to put right the things able to establish rights and conditions for workers it claimed needed putting right and which it is 4636 4636ASSEMBLY] now attempting to bring into line with its Already the breakdown of standards is philosophy by way of legislation? No answer! occurring. This Bill is not yet through Parliament, Did the Government go in day after day, on but these stores are sure of the support they will case after case, week after week, to tell the court get from the Government. The Government is that it opposed preference in union awards; that it getting such poor advice in regard to industrial opposed conditions in regard to workers' matters, and the Government is lacking in compensation being written into awards? industrial knowledge itself. Where on the other side of the Chamber, Or On the Government side Mr O'Connor: We have made clear where we in the Legislative Council, is there a person who stand on it over a long period of time. has ever been an employee of a trade union? Such Mr DAVIES: How often did the Government a person would never get endorsement from the go into court? Liberal Party. Mr O'Connor: Until recently, I never had the Mr Tubby: We on this side have a more opportunity. diversified knowledge than you on the other side Mr DAVIES: How often did the Government have. go into court? Mr DAVIES: We will take the honourable Mr O'Connor: I would not know offhand. member up on that at any time. If the member for Mr DAVIES: There you are! The Government Greenough wasted SI1000 on Focal International never went into court. It was not game to, because and if he thinks he is better than the rest of us, we it would have been thrown out of court. Now it Is can understand. If one of his colleagues wants to interfering with the freedom of the tourts. When bring back the lash, we understand. We Governments start to interfere with the courts, understand the type of Government we are they are putting the country at risk. getting. It is brainwashing the people. I have pointed out what I thought of clause 75 Mr Young: That is obviously untrue. and the blanket effect which could follow. I have Mr DAVIES: Read the speeches he has made. asked the Minister to tell me how many times the Several members interjected. Government went before the courts to argue its The CHAIRMAN: Order! philosophy. He is unable to tell me. Now the Government is achieving its aim by way of Mr Young: You just said he spent $1 000. legislation. Is that the Australian spirit? Are they Mr DAVIES: I said "it" hie has. the things that we are supposed to have fought for Several members interjected. over the years? The CHAIRMAN: Order! To protect itself, the Government i Mr DAVIES: encouraging people If members opposite are to pole on other people prepared to stand up and support these companies because courts are not going to protect the which are a little shadowy, and if they are workers. It is as simple as that. Already some of prepared to bring back the lash, as the member the larger chains of department stores are making for Roe wants to do, that is up to them. These it patently clear they prefer their sorts of things seem to delight Government employees-mostly shop assistants-not to be in members. But they are not experienced in trade unions. What have we seen with hours of trading union matters. in these stores? Firstly, late-night shopping was brought in at the whim of the previous Minister The member for Moore spoke to my Press for Labour and Industry. It is not generally secretary when there was a recent protest by accepted by the trade as this stage, but it realises right-wingers. He said, "Isn't it lovely?", but he it is stuck with it. Now we have the Rockingham forgot he was talking to my Press secretary; he area-supposedly a holiday centre, but more like thought he was talking to one of the facists. We a dormitory suburb-where it is proposed that know his views; he has expressed them many there be a 74-hour per week shopping times. He has abused the privileges of this House arrangement. Some of the larger Australia-wide and hidden behind them to criticise reporters. He chain stores are making it known they would never took us up on that occasion. Let us not rather their employees were not members of forget that. unions. This means they will employ people on a Here we have the situation where the casual basis and pay them what they like, If an Government has not been game to take its employee dares to complain, he will be told, "You philosophy before the courts. It does not matter can move on; we will get someone else to fill your how long the clauses have been in the awards; it position.", does not matter what stresses were put on the [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979J 463763 unions to get them there; it does not matter how magnificent legacy to be left by the Government long the fight was to get them there; it does not because it considered it could not get its own way; matter how justified the arguments were, the because it was not game enough to argue its case Government is now saying that it does flat suit its before the courts, but it did have the numbers in philosophy and it is going to interfere with the the Parliament. It is a sad day for Western rights of the court. Australia. To say the least, it is a sad situation. Mr Clause, as amended, put and a division taken Chairman, I am sure you do not subscribe to that with the following result- philosophy, although I have not always agreed Ayes 27 with what you say. Mr Blaikie Mr O'Connor Mr Grewar: Do you have a better way? Sir Charles Court Mr Old Mr Cowan Mr O!Neil Mr DAVIES: We do not interfere with the Mr Coyne Mr Ridg jurisdiction of the courts. Dr Dadour Mr Rush ton Mr Grayden Mr Sibson Mir Hassell: What about the marches? You say Mr Orewar Mr Sodeman you do not want to interfere with the courts. Mr Hassell Mr Spriggs Mr Herzfeld Mr Tubby Mr DAVIES: We do not. If the member for Mr Laurance Mr Watt Cottesloe is suggesting we want our philosophy Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams followed by the Police Department, I would like Mr McPharlin Mr Young Mr Mensaros Mr Shalders to ask what kind of messages went between the Mr Nanovich (Teller) Government and the Police Department on those Noes IS occasions? It is strange, but certain things Mr Barnett Mr Grill happened which seemed to be more than Mr Bertram Mf Harman coincidences, and then they formed a kind of Mr Jamiesn MrBrc Mr T. H. Jones pattern. MrT.J . Burke Mr Mclver So the Government is interfering with the Mr Carr Mr Skidmore courts. This should not be done. If it is, we will Mr Davies Mr Tonkin Mr 1.0D. Evans Mr Wilson see the ruination of the country. We cannot agree Mr T. D. Evans Mr Bateman to years of tradition being wiped out by the stroke (Teller) of the administrative pen just because the Pains Government cannot see any good in trade unions. Ayes Noes Mr P.V. Jones Mr Taylor The Government does not realise that trade Mrs Craig Mr Pearce unions are a part of the community. If the unions Mr Crane Mr Hodge have to go back to the Toilpuddle Martyr days, Clause, amended, thus passed. they will do so and they will be doing a job on as behalf of those sections of the community which Clause 118 put anrd passed. do not always get the proper attention they Schedule put and passed. deserve. Title put and passed. We are very grateful we have trade unions. Bill reported with amendments. This time next year I am quite certain the Government-if it is still a Government-will be able to say, "We can blame it all on the trade PUBLIC NOTARIES BILL unions" because the blame for the economic mess the Government has made of the State at the Council's Message present time is always shot home straight to the Message from the Council received and read trade union movement. The Government says, notifying that it had agreed to the amendment "There would not be this trouble if the workers made by the Assembly. did not demand wage rises or the right to organise." It is as simple as that as far as Government members are concerned. APPROPRIATION DILL It is a great shame that this sort of legislation (CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND) should be before the Parliament. It is badly In committee drafted, and even after six years in the making it has had a record number of amendments. Is this The Chairman of Committees (Mr Clarko) in something to be proud of? What a legacy it is for the Chair; Sir Charles Court (Treasurer) in the Government to fade out on. What a charge of the Bill. 4638 4638[ASSEMBLY]

Part 1: Parliament- If the Labor Party becomes the Government MR JAMIESON (Welshpool) [10.45 p.m.]: It after the next election, the provisions contained in is not my intention to emulate my effort last year the report of the Sholl committee, in relation to and speak for several hours on this particular travel concessions for members of Parliament in matter. this State, will be put into effect. That is the least Mr Laurance: That is a disappointment. members of Parliament should receive and it is up Mr JAMIESON: I will bet it is a to them whether they use their privileges. Not all disappointment, because members opposite did members of Parliament will take advantage of not do any work, but they enjoyed some of the them. It is similar to the situation which exists in relation to travel concessions results which I obtained. Members opposite are to the Eastern probably disappointed, because they thought they States. My wife is entitled to a trip to the Eastern States during the course of a Parliament. In the might receive some more goodies. last three years she has not taken advantage of Last year I spent most of my time trying to that privilege and unless she suddenly travels to convince the Premier that, bearing in mind the the Eastern States in the next few months, she size of this State, additional travel facilities will not do so. should be granted to members. Some are is improvements have been made in regard to However, there occasions when it necessary for members to be able to take members' travel facilities, as we are aware, and advantage of travel concessions in order that they we are now granted one flight a year on a may do their jobs properly. recognised airline to a destination anywhere within this State. This is better than one flight a I should like to refer to the situation in regard Parliament, but it still does not go anywhere near to Standing Orders as they affect the introduction the recommendations made by the Sholl of Bills. Recently one of my colleagues took you, committee. That committee carried out its inquiry Sir, to task-and rightly so-for attempting to many years ago and I hope something is done read the introductory speech to the second about the recommendations made by it, regardless reading of a Bill. of which party becomes the Government after the Mr Bertram: A procedure he continued to next election. follow. I am aware the Premier says constantly that Mr JIAMIESON: There may have been these matters cost money; but a number of justification for you, Sir, continuing to follow that members do not seem to take advantage of the procedure. However, a Minister is permitted, travel concessions granted to them. There is a when introducing a Bill as distinct from taking particular problem with relation to members who part in a debate, to read his speech. That is a make up the shadow Cabinet, because it is deliberate act on the part of the Minister when necessary for them to travel throughout the State introducing the Bill. in the course of their work. The Premier does not A member may have put a lot of thought and like to refer to shadow Ministers. However, when research into his speech and may have points he Opposition members are spokesmen on particular wishes to make in the course of his speech. In the disciplines they have responsibilities in that case of a Minister his information is supplied to regard. him by the research staff of the department from Very definite allowances are made in the which the Bill has originated. Of course a Federal sphere for members to move around the Minister is able to read the whole speech to the country and thiis should be the case in this State. Parliament to make sure that all aspects It should not always be a one-sided arrangement. associated with the legislation being introduced The other side of all arguments should be are covered. presented to the people of this State when we If it is right and proper for Ministers to have have a Government and an Opposition. that privilege it should also be right and Proper Surely State Opposition members should be for other members to have the same privilege entitled to the same privileges accorded members when introducing legislation. I myself do not like in the Federal jurisdiction. Recently the salaries Written speeches. I do not handle them very well tribunal examined travel expenses and conditions as I .found years ago when I had to use them for members and at one stage it came very close often. This was because if I misquoted a figure to making a recommendation on this matter. the Premier would react quickly or one of his However, I understand problems were henchmen would. One must not dare to deviate experienced before a final determination was from the established facts when dealing with a arrived at and no recommendation was made. reply to a Budget debate. [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979]163 4639

The privilege should be extended to provide full which suggest the Premier should be in gaol-and and copious notes of a written speech when perhaps he receives some which state I should be dealing with budgetary matters. I do not want to in gaol-I do not take much notice of them. Also see everyone during the course of this debate have one does not quote from such a letter in the this privilege because we would have members Chamber because one is not too sure of where one reading from their researched speeches ad stands. To use them would be dangerous. nauseam. I understand there is nothing in. the The member for Greenough the other night Standing Orders to prevent this; it is a matter of quoted a letter which he reported had been referring to Erskine May. printed somewhere, but when he was asked to Mr O'Neil: We were told not to use that as an table it it was seen that the signatures had been authority. erased or had been taken out when it was Mr JIAMIESON: It is a little like when photocopied. It was then not possible to ascertain everything else fails, read the instructions.- We its background so it was an anonymous letter; it have no instructions and nowhere else to go for did not have an author. direction so it is time we had clear and concise Mr Tubby: Are you denying the details or instructions about the use of prepared speeches in saying they are not correct? this place. Mr JAMIESON: I am not doing that;, 1 am Mr Davies: It would strike a few dumb if they saying it was an anonymous letter. If it had been were not able to read. signed by W. W. Mitchell we would not take any Mr JAMIESON: We would perhaps get some notice of it, and the same would apply if it was sense. from a person who regularly wrote to the Mr Davies: I think Speaker Snedden is newspaper with a Labor line criticising the advocating the practice of not being able to read Government, then I would not take any notice of that either. I would say speeches in the Federal Parliament. that was that person's form and leave it at that. Mr JAM IESON: Generally, all speeches are prepared for the Federal Parliament. Of However the anonymous letter I referred to has course into the annals of Parliament. This where there is a prepared speech I am not sure been written letter which was ve ry critical of the whether the person concerned just reads it or not. ALP-without an author-is now somewhat of an It is not of great concern of course because that authority on the Labor Party. I do not know how Parliament is broadcast and members want to low we can go in debates hut when we resort have their facts correct. I think the fact to that the this practice it is time we shut the shop. This sort proceedings are broadcast isone of the reasons for a prepared speech. of practice is quite unnecessary. When we asked for the letter to be tabled, the member said he did I would rather speak without prepared notes not know from which newspaper it came, and but there are occasions, especially when one is Hansardhas recorded this. He could have taken it introducing a Bill which has had to be researched from a comic strip for all we know. and dates and times are referred to in the course of its introduction, when it should be allowed. I Mr Tubby: They were facts. have no objection to that and I think this matter Mr Bryce: You mean they cemented your own should be reviewed so that allowances can be prejudice. made for this. It is no good a Minister having the Mr JAMIESON: They were not facts in that right to have a prepared speech to read from and the letter does not have an author. It is just a on the other hand a private member when number of words which exist and have no introducing a Bill has to rely on memory and authority. perhaps may miss some important points. Of When we look at Standing Orders we should course, the Minister could then adjourn the make sure there' is provision to clearly indicate debate and tear into the member who then has to what can be tabled and from what documents reply later on. It would be far better for the members are able to quote. Standing Orders state proceedings of Parliament to be above that. clearly that the authority from which a quote is Another matter I wish to raise is that of made should be mentioned. That is necessary in quoting from newspapers and other articles and order to make sure something is not taken out of the tabling of them. I think it has come to the last context. If such a provision were included in straw when a member of this Chamber has the Standing Orders members would be more fully temerity to quote fronf an anonymous letter. If I aware of their responsibility in the use of material receive an anonymous letter-and no doubt the from which they quote and they would not be in a Premier receives them also-and I receive some position to quote anonymous letters and place 4640 4640[ASSEMBLY] them on the Table of the House whenever they Only a few days ago a time limit on debate was choose to do so in order to embarrass the opposite suggested and this caused some controversy. That side. At present a member is able to quote related to Standing Order No. 48 which allows somebody he does not know and thus he is debate on an urgency motion, and the argument speaking without any authority. was with regard to the number of speakers Mr Watt: What are your thoughts on time allowed to take part. limits for amendments to the Address-in- Reply? If we are to review Standing Orders perhaps it Mr JAMIESON: That would depend on the might be advisable to set out the number of number of amendments. The member opposite members allowed to take part in such a debate so has not been in this Chamber for very long. I can that the Speaker would not be involved in the recall that during one session of the Tonkin turbulence in, firstly, determining whether or not Government some six amendments were moved an urgency motion should proceed. In the past rather quickly to the Address- in- Reply. The there have been occasions when a Speaker has not Minister did not reply to one amendment, and on replied to a letter from a member until after the that occasion the member for South Perth House has commenced sitting. That has reworded it and introduced it once again. flummoxed me on several occasions when I have It would be difficult to overcome the problem attempted to debate an urgency motion. Usually, by use of the forms of the Chamber. It must the Speaker does contact a member and advise be him of the action to be taken. remembered that on the last occasion of the debate on the Address-in-Reply the Premier did With regard to the incident which occurred a something which I think was unforgivable; that is, few days ago, there was a tacit agreement. The he did not get the Address-in-Reply through Speaker thought that certain action had been before we adjourned the first part of the session. taken on previous occasions, but that was proved That led to the Opposition coming back fresh to be not so. Perhaps it should be more clearly after the break. I do not care whether it is a laid down in Standing Orders whether there Liberal Opposition or a Labor Opposition, I will should be two or three speakers from each side so bet dollars to doughnuts that if it has an that we would know where we are going and that opportunity to come back after the break, it will would avoid any hassle and humbug. move two or three additional amendments to the I believe those matters I have raised could help Address-in-Reply. That was the choice of the to improve the style of the activities in this Premier. Perhaps there were some problems, and Chamber. I hope that before long the Standing he had to get certain legislation through. Orders Committee will meet and consider some of However, it was out of the normal process and the points I have raised so that we do not have to certainly it allowed for additional debate. That refer to Erskine May, or somebody else who gave will continue unless advantage is taken of the a ruling some time ago. opportunity to put the Address-in- Reply through Mr O'Neil: I think we need a local "Erskine during the first part of the session. May" which lays down our practices and usages. 1. do not think it is possible to particularise. Our Standing Orders state that if a matter is not During some of the years I have been here there covered by those Standing Orders, we will follow has not been one amendment to the Address-in- our own practice and usage. Who knows what Reply. they are? Mr Watt: There were no problems during those Mr JAM IESON: The problem is that it would years. have only limited use. It would be fairly expensive Mr JAMIESON: During some years, there to compile and print such a document for use by have been as many as eight amendments, but they one Parliament, whereas thousands of copies of average out at, perhaps, two or three a year. Erskine May are available. Therefore, that When the Address-in-Reply extends into the reference is less costly. However, the suggestion second part of the session, members become has merit and, indeed, the Clerks of this House loquacious, and after a spell of a couple of months have a comprehensive list of precedents to which they want to get a few more points across. It is a they refer. matter of the running of the House. On this Mt O'Neil: They ought to be published so that occasion the Premier may have fallen into a trap members know what they are. and caused the problem about which the member Mr JAMIESON: That could be a good move opposite is not very happy. I do not think there on the part of the Standing Orders Committee. should be a time limit, and I do not know how a They could be published in a form so that they limit could be applied. could be referred to easily. Perhaps they could be [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979J164 4641 included with our Standing Orders. That MR BRVCE (Ascot-Deputy Leader of the publication is now a little smaller than it was Opposition) (11. 12 p.m.! : I take this opportunity previously and we could add a few precedents in the discussion of the Estimates relating to without making it much larger. At least we would Parliament to register a protest about a rather have some authority on which to base an shabby attempt by the Government to hobble the argument. I think the move needs to be made, and Opposition, All members appreciate that the I hope it will occur before very long. Opposition operates out of Parliament House, and The only other matter I want to speak about the Government of the day, with its hands on the generally is the setup of the Assembly Chamber. I purs strings, calls the tune, in many respects. have already asked the Speaker about installing a In regard to this matter I ask myself repeatedly proper counting device for divisions. We have just why the Government appears to be runing had a number of divisions associated with a Bill. scared to such an extent that it seems to be afraid In this day and age the system seems ludicrous of an evenly-based battle as far as the because we still have to cross the Chamber rather forthcoming election campaign is concerned, than sit in our own seats and record our votes by certainly in respect of political activities in 1979. I means of a bell punch. A check board would refer specifically to the Government's basically indicate a member's vote, and that would obviate hypocritical and niggardly attitude in denying the anyone pressing the wrong button, and protect a Leader of the Opposition access to a telex facility. member against someone else pressing his button. There is absolutely no justification for the Our votes would then register automatically and Government's attitude and I intend to explain to the Whips would need only to supply the pains the Chamber and 'particularly to the Government associated with each division. The "Ayes" and back-benchers-because I assume most of them "Noes" would automatically print out. do not realise ht-how, utterly without I do not think the installation of such a system justification, the Premier in his own right, as would be an excess in this day and age. Leader of the Government of this State, spends Parliaments throughout, the world seem to be countless thousands of dollars a year on introducing similar systems. communication and media and at the same time We had a small improvement with the has the unmitigated hide to say there is no need installation of an electronic timing device and I for a telex facility in the office of the Leader of think all members will agree it has been quite the Opposition. helpful. Indeed, it is greatly appreciated. But It is well understood by anybody involved in other things can be done without much alteration public life or business that a telex facility is an to the Chamber which would make the workings essential basic form of communication in the late of the Chamber much better than they arm at 1970s and early 1980s. Every decenit lawyer's present. office has a telex facility. Every business of any The Speaker suggested he would research the size has a telex facility, and certainly most matter, but I think it needs to be drawn to his institutions of higher learning have their own attention again so that perhaps in the new telex facilities. Parliament we can set up some Standing Orders The Premier is probably unequalled in the to cover a bell-punch system of voting to history of this State in the way he uses the telex determine divisions and 'perhaps cut out some of himself. The Premier's Department alone is the time associated with crossing over, counting, estimated to have spent $15 000 last year on and shielding notes or whatever on the operating telexes, and presumably the bulk of that Government side when members of the expenditure would have been incurred by the Government come over here and we go over there. Premier himself on media releases. The Premider I do not know whether we, will get any has confirmed by way of answers to questions in improvements, but last year we got a few and I this place that each of his Ministers has access to thought it was worth mentioning in this debate on some type of telex facility, but he refuses to do the Estimates. the homework necessary to produce figures for Mr Sodeman: Would an electronic v6ting members of this Parliament to enable 'them to system be a way of introducing secret ballots? glean an accurate and up-to-date indication of Mr JAMIESON: No, it would not. We want it how much money is spent by the entire Cabinet clearly understood that it would not alter the on disseminating information and Press releases present situation because every member would not only throughout the metropolitan area, but know exactly how one was voting. With those throughout the entire State and, for that matter, words, I support the vote. throughout tl~e entire nation. ti4E1 4642 4642ASSEMBLY]

I am reliably informed that the Premier's Now the Government is using the telex facility broadcast list involves some III points and refusing to concede that in 1979 the Leader throughout the nation. He does not want to deny of the alternative Government of this State is himself coverage or exposure even as far as the entitled to have a telex facility in his office at other States of Australia are concerned. So, if he Parliament House by virtue of the responsibility puts out a Press release on the telex it goes not of his position and his genuine need to only to the seven basic points in Western communicate with the community, Australia, but also to dozens of others in other In recent times we have seen instances of the States. Yet this is the same man who says through member for Green ough receiving messages from his. Deputy Premier by way of correspondence-to the Government in his constituency through the which I intend to refer shortly-that there is no office of the Regional Administrator in need for a telex facility in the office of the Leader Geraldton. If that is not party partisan- *.ofthe Opposition. Mr Watt: What do you mean, "we have seen"? The Premier has spent a considerable amount Mr BRYCE: Evidence was presented. My of time overseas and I am very reliably informed attention was drawn to it by another member of that on the occasion of his last (air!ly extended Parliament. visit overseas he made a welter of the use of telex Mr B. T. Burke; Surely the member for Albany and vocodex facilities. He ran his Cabinet from is not supporting it? the other side of the world. While he was away Mr BRYCE: overseas the pages of The West Australian If the member for Greenough newspaper containing items denies it, I will be very interested to hear him. On of political the one hand I am saying that is not a legitimate importance were vocodexed to the other side of use of telex facilities and, on the other hand, the the world so that he could run his Cabinet from Treasurer and the Deputy Premier are saying the United States of America or Western Europe; they are of the view there is no justification for a and he was telexing back to Perth yards of telex in the office of the Leader of the Opposition. instructions to his Ministers about what they should do in respect of this and that Particular When the Leader of the Opposit ion challenged item. In some cases, I am reliably informed, one the statement of the Deputy Premier that there particular Minister was receiving instructions was no justification for the installation of a telex from the Premier from the other side of the world facility in his office, the Leader of the Opposition because, with the time difference, the Premier asked the Deputy Premier what investigation had was getting vocodex information before .the been carried out to enable him to come to that Minister had woken up or arrived at work. conclusion. The Deputy Premier wrote back that no investigation had been carried out; he did not This is the way the Premier is prepared to use need one. Presumably the Deputy Premier was these media facilities for his own party-political acting on the basis of prejudice or pettiness purposes. We know it is extremely hard to draw because he did not even bother to contact the the line of demarcation between party-political office of the Leader of the Opposition to find out purposes and governmental purposes, or whether such a facility could be justified. justification for governmental reasons, when a I would estimate that probably more than political party is in office. But what is the reason $100 000 a year is spent on telex facilities for the for the humbug of the Premier and Treasurer of 13~Cabinet members and yet the leader of the this State in saying there is no justification for alternative Government of this State is not installing such a facility in the office of the entitled to one telex machine. I ask this question Leader of the Opposition in Parliament House? again: How and why is it that the Government is The Deputy Premier has gone one stage further running so scared of an evenly-based fight or and has indicated to the Leader of the Opposition contest at the next election that it can stand back that he may not even at his own cost install a and say, "We are not prepared to concede to the telex machine in his office at Parliament House. leader of the alternative Government of this State What, I ask, is the justification for that? We are the same facilities that exist in lawyers' offices fully aware that the Government has a veritable and in reasonably-sized businesses throughout' the army of research officers in Government State"? departments, and special appointees to ministerial I emnphasise that the Leader of the Opposition staffs, to do its research work. Since it has been in had indicated to the Treasurer that he was office the Government has increased significantly prepared to pay for the installation of this the army of public relations officers by way of equipment and he was prepared to pay the annual journalists to carry its public relations burden. rental. The Leader of the Opposition was seeking [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979J]64 4643 two things: An undertaking from the Premier's Could I have your early reply on this Department that the stationery would be paid for, matter please. and that the metered calls would be included on I would like to pose this particular question to the the normal telephone account of the office of the Treasurer of our State who makes such great play Leader of the Opposition. so frequently about his careful housekeeping. He Mr Nanovich: Did you extend that courtesy to has, in his wisdom, rejected the request by the the then Opposition at the time you were the Leader of the Opposition for a telex facility. I Government? would like to ask him, through you, Mr Mr BRYCE: It was never requested. Chairman: would he justify the expenditure if the Leader of the Opposition were to send out Press Mr Tonkin: The Government did not have any releases, on a broadcast basis, to multiple outlets, itself, as phonograms? Mr BRYCE: Over the last six years society has Sir Charles Court: I do not know what you moved fairly quickly. If it has left the member for want to know from me. Whitford behind, then I am sincerely sorry for him. I have no doubt that between 1971 and 1974 Mr BRYCE: I am interested in the opinion of the Government did not make a welter of telex the man who is the guru of careful housekeeping. facilities. Probably telexes were not as widely Sir Charles Court: You carry on with your used then as they are now. - story and I will answer it in a minute. I would like to commit to the record some fairly Mr BRY CE: I want the Treasurer to give me basic information. an answer. Mr B. T. Burke: I would like to commit the The Treasurer knows he is in i corner because member for Whitford! of his meanness. There was no moral justification for the decision. The Treasurer spends thousands Mr BRYCE: I would like to indicate to the of dollars a year spreading his great word around Triasurer, who'is so desperate to canve out for this nation-not just around the State ind the himself the reputation of being a great statesman, metropolitan area. how niggardly and petty the Government has been in this respect. Sir Charles Court: I will answer it in a minute. Sir Charles Court: Lord Dunrossil said that a Mr BRYCE: I will inform the Treasurer of the successful statesman is a politician who has been answers he has given in this Chamber, and I will dead for 10 years. demonstrate how meaningless they are. Mr BRYCE: It makes one wonder whether he Sir Charles Court: 'I will answer your meant physically dead, philosophically dead, or proposition in a moment. politically dead. Mr BRYCE: The reply came back from the Deputy Premier, not from the Under Secretary Mr Tonkin: Well said. of the Premier's Department. It reads as follows- Mr BRYCE: On the 22nd February the Leader of the Opposition wrote to Mr Davies, the Under You wrote to the Under Secretary, Premier's Department, on February 22 1979 Secretary of the Ptrmier's Department, in the concerning the installation of a telex machine following terms- in your office. I am seeking to have a telex machine It is not considered that there is a need for installed in my office. I intend to pay the this facility in the office of the Leader of the annual rental and installation. Opposition. In these circumstances, approval I am writing to ascertain whether the cannot be given to your proposals. metered calls for the machine can be placed How sweet, how short, how succinct! That answer on my telephone account. I would point out was given without any investigation. So on the that it is significantly cheaper- 20th March the Leader of the Opposition wrote This ought to concern a Treasurer who is so back to the Deputy Premier in this vein- preoccupied with careful housekeeping. It I acknowledge your letter of March 6th continues- concerning the installation of a telex machine -to pursue this course than to use in my office. phonograms for similar purposes. As the Government has declined to I will also be pleased if Premiers arrange to allow metered calls for the telex Department would bear the cost of stationery machine to be placed on my telephone for the machine. account, am I to assume that I should use 4644 4644[ASSEMBLY)

phonograms, which are significantly more Mr BRYCE: Perhaps the Ministers do not each expensive, for the same purposes as a telex have a machine;, perhaps the 13 Ministers share machine? four, five, or six. That is a fairly key point. The letter continues- Mr Tonkin: We haven't got one. I am also writing to find out whether investigations were carried out to ascertain Mr BRYCE: I am suggesting that the alternative Government should be entitled to have the need for a telex machine in the office of access to a telex facility; but, of course, it is not. the Leader of the Opposition. To my There is absolutely no justification whatsoever for knowledge no-one approached me or any that, I continue to quote the letter of the Deputy members of my staff in relation to this Premier, and the following paragraph gives the matter. real key to his mentality on this question- An unsigned letter from the Deputy Premier As to whether any investigations were dated the 20th April, 1979, was then forwarded to undertaken to ascertain the need for a telex the Leader of the Opposition. It commences-- machine in your office, you are advised that On 20th March, 1979 you sought my there was no investigation carried out as advice as to whether you should use such. phonograms, since a telex machine was not In other words, it was pettiness and prejudice, or approved for use by your office at Parliament it was a matter of prejudging, the issue. The House. Deputy Premier1 six years out of Opposition, has I do not want to pre-empt the Treasurer's not a clue about the volume of business or the imagination as he tries to find an answer to this justification for this facility in the office of the particular question, but I would like to tell him Leader of the Opposition. He went on to say- what the Deputy Premier said at this time. The However, if you still maintain there is a letter continues- need for this type of facility and as you are The decision as to how you operate your prepared to meet the installation and communication network is one for you to operating costs, then the machine can be determine, and it would be quite improper installed wherever you wish, provided such for mec to suggest otherwise. installation is not made at Parliament House. Does the Deputy Premier think it would be a So not only has the Government said it is not reasonable way to spend the taxpayers' money for prepared to grant access to telex facilities to the the Leader of the Opposition to send out Leader of the Opposition, but also it has had the broadcast Press releases on a phonogram. basis meanness to say, "if you want to pay for one rather than telexing them, bearing in mind the yourself, install it wherever you like as long as it enormous difference in cost? is nowhere near Parliament House or the office of the Leader of the Opposition." What justification Mr O'Neil: I still do not believe, in spite of has the Deputy Premier for that absurd, your comments, that a telex machine is extraordinary statement? What justification has warranted. No Minister has a private telex he to say that on the basis of his authority such a machine; it is shared by departments and other machine must not be installed within the precincts Ministers. of this building? I have never heard anything so Mr BRYCE: It just happens that ministerial ridiculous in all my life. Press releases pour out all over the State, into the I would like to refer to a question I asked on regional news outlets, and all over the this subject on Tuesday, the 18th September. The metropolitan area, to such an extent that these question and answer indicates how the Premier outlets are nearly suffocated by the yards and ducks for cover. He wonders why we do not trust yards of telexes. I was in a news room in a the substance of his answers or rely on the regional centre recently and the staff there sincerity of his approach in this place. Here is a demonstrated to me the countless yards of paper demonstration of that. The following question and falling out all over the floor and Originating from answer are recorded at pages 2912 and 2913 of Ministers of the Crown. The Deputy Premier is Hansard- now suggesting that the Leader of the Opposition (I) Is it a fact that he and his department should not have access to such a machine. make use of telex facilities to distribute Mr O'Neil: I am not suggesting it; I am saying media releases throughout Western we do not have private telex machines. Australia? [Tuesday, 13th November, 19791 464564

The answer was- The answer from the Premier this time side- (1) Yes but only as part of the total stepped his responsibility to give me figures in departmental telex traffic. relation to the cost of telex facilities. The answer The Premier was trying to kid this House of was in this form- Parliament that the major volum, of telex traffic (3) Cost of telex facilities in the Premier's out of that office was a result of governmental Department covering the uses referred and departmental business, and not the vast miles to above- of telex which go out to news outlets every year as 1976-77 unavailable. a result of his direction and insistence. 1977-78 512 556. Sir Charles Court: It shows how little you know 1978-79 $14 873. about government. It is not practicable to segregate the Mr Carr: Is that the best retort he can make? costs of this facility to the individual users. Mr BRYCE: The second part of my question That was for the Premier's Department alone. was as follows-- He duck-shoved that element of the question which (2) Is it a fact that all of the members in his sought an indication of the estimated cost of telex Cabinet have access to this facility? facilities to the Stats Government, I have seen the yards and yards of telex news Mr Sodeman: Could I ask you a question? Does media releases coming from the Premier's office the TLC have a telex machine? and the offices, of his colleagues. As I have said, I Mr BRYCE: I think it does, but I am not sure. saw the many yards of telex material in the news room of a particular regional centre only a Mfr Sodeman: Would you agree it would use fortnight ago. The people there complained they the telex machine for political purposes; such as simply have not sufficient time or staff to read the the political statements Peter Cook makes from volume of material the Premier chums out. So let time to time? Do you agree that should be done? him not dare for a minute suggest it is all Mr DRYCE: That is the business of the TLC. Government business which justifies the use of which is an individual organisation. the telex machine. Mr Sodeman: But it is a body which represents In reply to the second part of my question, the members of both political parties. Premier was not prepared to say "Yes" or "No". Mr BRYCE: What has that to do with it? and to give a straightforward answer- Instead he What about the Confederation of Western gave us the following gobbledygook to which we Australian Industry; is it entitled to put out Press have become accustomed- releases? (2) Telex machines are installed in various Mr Tonkin: He is childish; just ignore him. Government departments and used on a Mr BRYCE: The member for Pilbara has shared basis by departments in close missed the entire point. Any individual proximity. In turn, Ministers can avail community organisation which pays for the themselves of the use of these machines installation of its own telex facilities is entitled to and, on occasions, use the telex facilities use them. I include in that the Confederation of of the Premier's Department. Western Australian Industry and the Ttades. and I have no doubt that is true, The answer Labor Council; if they both happen to have telex continued- facilities, they are entitled to use them. What I The telex facilities in the Premier's am saying is that we have a situation in which the Department arc also made use of by Government of this State is using taxpayers' Treasury and the Department of money- Industrial Development. Mr B. T. Burke: For election propaganda. That still begs the question that the Ministers of Mr BRYCE: That is as neatly as I could have the Government make ample use indeed of the put it. The Government is pumping out party facility-so much so that it makes it a very political propaganda as well as Government lopsided struggle in the presentation of points of information on telex facilities paid for by the view to the public. The third part of my question taxpayers. Yet at the same time it says-as late in was as follows- this century as 1979-that it can see no (3) What is the estimated cost of telex justification for the installation of telex facilities facilities to the State Government for in the office of the leader of the alternative each of the last three years? Government of the State. 4646 4646(ASSEMBLY]

The fourth part of my question was as Premier be decent and straightforward and follows- answer that challenge when he rises to respond tc (4) Will he explain to the House why he these questions relating to the way thi5 refuses to pay for the installation of and Parliament is being run. the operating costs associated with a MR PEARCE (Gosnells)[l 11.42 p.m.J: I wish tc telex facility for the Leader of the discuss some comments which were attributed tc Opposition? me recently ini the Press regarding security in this The Premier's answer was-- place. Firstly, at no stage had I any intention ol (4) The Leader of the Opposition was seeking to make the matter an issue. I certainl) advised in a letter dated the 6th March, did not wish to suggest that either the policx 1979, the reason approval could not be officers who patrol the grounds or sit in tht given to the installation of a telex gallery or the gentlemen who work at the front oi machine in his office. side doors of this building were in any way being derelict in their duty. None of them has indicated I go back to the letter written by the Deputy Premier on the 6th March-the to me he felt my remarks were intended to conve) one which the that impression; if any of them feels that, it Premier said in his answer in this place contained certainly was not the case. reasons and an explanation as to why a telex facility should not be installed in the office of the Nevertheless, I did get involved in a discussior Leader of the Opposition. Here is that letter in a generalised sense with journalists from the again. Apart from the introductory sentence, the Australian Broadcasting Commission in regard tc letter of the Deputy Premier said- the sorts of dilemmas facing a democracy and the possibility that those of us here may face the It is not Considered that there is a need for problem of irrational people or, indeed, terrorists this facility in the office of the Leader of the and the problems which would confront Opposition. In these circumstances, approval us iT those sorts of situations. The journalist taped cannot be given to your proposals. m3 remarks and played them on air. I had nc We already knew that no investigation was criticism of the story he put to air because it wa! carried out. So on the basis of their own pettiness, a very fair one, and adequately represented the their prejudice, and their commitment to a party- point I was making. partisan attitude, the Deputy Premier and the Premier have ganged up and said, "We will not Therefore I was a little surprised when it waw give Davies a telex facility:' considered "an issue" by some people. I was ever more surprised to draw a rather stinging repl3 That sort of attitude needs to be exposed, from the Premier. 1 could not imagine why he particularly to all the members of his back bench involved himself in the matter; one would have who will remember years after he has gone that thought either the Speaker or the President, whc this so-called statesman who once led the Liberal in fact carry some responsibility for securit] Party in this State was responsible for this sort of measures in this place, may wish to reply. decision. They will remember exactly how the Premier fought the fight when he was here. He However, the Premier took it upon himself t( criticise me for making any comment at all or was not prepared to go to the people on the basis of a square, fair dinkumn battle; such a matter. He issued a Press release statinj he wanted this that he wanted the matter unbelievable difference in advantages. was not considered "low key" Hie The prepared to be satisfied with an army of research Premier believed one should not even discus and Press officers; he also wanted to deny--as the possibility of irrational people coming inte late as 1979-the right of the Opposition Parliament House with guns, seeking to do at to have sorts of things. The Premier, in his efforts to keel access to a telex facility. the matter "low key" promptly issued his releasi I challenge the Premier not to shove aside this to media throughout the State. basic question, because it concerns taxpayers' Mr Barnett: Through his telex machine. money. As the Premier of this State, he sends out on telex machines on a broadcast basis a vast Mr PEARCE: No doubt. The news releasi quantity of Press releases. I conclude with this appears to have been roneod; certainly, a large basic challenge to the Premier: Does he justify number were sent out. The Press release, in part morally or economically the expenditure from the states as follows- - office of the Leader of the Opposition on the The Premier, Sir Charles Court, todaj issuing of replies to those statements on a deplored the public criticism of securit: broadcast basis through phonograms? The cost measures at Parliament House by the Adl would be astronomical. I would like to hear the Member for Gosnells, Mr Pearce. [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979] 444647

Sir Charles said that just as too much Independent as calling for security measures in visible security was known to act as a the public Gallery I would not dream or asking challenge to some unbalanced minds, public for in a million years. The Premier certainly got statements like that of Mr Pearce were likely himself into an unintended response there! to be counater- productive by triggering an I hope the farce the Premier has generated on unintended response. this issue does not disguise the fact we live in Sir Charles said he had always believed in dreadful times and some consideration needs to be low-key security. given to the philosophical question of how we, in a Mr B. T. Burke: That was an unintended democracy wishing to act in an open way, should response. deal with the more unstable, or terrorist element in our midst, I do not subscribe to the "It cannot Pres Mr PEARCE: The Premier issued this happen here" philosophy which the Premier release to all forms of media, and I was quite supports. embarrassed by the number of Press men wh telephoned me.' I am not asking for anything to be done. However, it is an issue to which all members Sir Charles Court: You put out a panic should give some thought in the coming years. I statement in your comments to the ABC. conclude by reiterating I was not very impressed Mr PEARCE: I certainly did not put out a by the Premier's Press release on this matter. panic statement. MR BERTRAM (Mt. Hawthorn) [11.48 p.m.): Sir Charles Court: It was; your comments were I am staggered to observe that in the year ending featured on the ABC. The impression was that we the 30th June, 1980, the people of Western were all subject to danger, with the possibility (9f Australia will be obliged to pay $2 687 000 to run people sitting in the gallery ready to ping us off. this Parliament. Mr PEARCE; I was so concerned at the reports Mr Davies: Cheap at that price. from the journalists who telephoned me after Mr BERTRAM: It seems to be an under- receiving the Premier's Press release that-having not, in fact, heard the ABC story- I was obliged estimation, at any event. This amount exceeds by the year to telephone the ABC and ask for the story to be $2.50 000 the amount which was spent in ending the 30th June, 1979. That is a huge sum of read to me. I thought I must have been money and I believe it is significantly wasteful considerably misquoted. I repeat that the story the ABC put to air was an accurate reflection of expenditure. the points I made; it was a fair story. Mr Blaikie: You are creating an excellent If the Premier's approach to security at example. Parliament House, or anywhere else, really is a Mr BERTRAM: I usually do; 1 appreciate the low-key one, and he hopes members might go compliment. Of that $2 687 000, something like along with that approach-onec might compare 3500 000 or more is as a result of the increase in the Premier's attitude with the one which the numbers in this Parliament brought about in doubtless prevailed at the Melbourne Courthouse 1974 by the present Premier. until yesterday; they might be looking to different Mr Sibson: You are not arguing with that, are security measures in the future-one would have you? thought the Premier would telephone me and say, Mr Davies: Yes. We argued about it then. "This sort of thing really is not in the best interests or me, or the State"; If am sure the Mr BERTRAM: That amount will continue to Premier would be prepared to link those two increase. things together. Mr Sibson: If you are arguing about that, why Mr Sibson: Why didn't you offer him the same did you contest the seats? courtesy? Mr BERTRAM: On the overwhelming Mr PEARCE: It is a point of view I can probabilities, that amount will continue to understand although, in this world today, it is a increase for years and years. mistaken one. If the Premier really adheres to this Mr Herzfeld: Did you refuse the last salary point of view, let him practise it, and not run off increase? hundreds of these green and black news releases Mr BERTRAM: The other thing than should to be sent all over the State. be kept in mind when one is talking about the I was quite embarrassed by the response to the total estimate for the Parliament is the fact that Premier's Press release, and it ended up with my other functions which used to be performed by the being drastically misquoted in the Sunday Parliament or members of Parliament are 4648 4648ASSEMBLY] performed no longer by the Parliament or Mr Sibson: Just look at the minutes. members of Parliament. For example, members, Mr B. T. Burke: If you do go along, what do should add to the figure of $2 687 000 the costs, you go along for? or some of them at any event, related to the Ombudsman. As the Premier pointed out ad Mr Sibson: You ask your Whip. nauseam over the space of about 12 years when Mr BERTRAM: There we have eloquent the creation of the position of Ombudsman was testimony to the virtue and the efficiency of this fought for, the sorts of functions that be would Parliament in respect of that aspect of it which is perform were those which should be performed by dealt with by the Standing Orders Committee. efficient members of Parliament. So, we add to The member for Bunbury cannot even remember that figure a substantial portion of the when the last meeting was! expenditure currently being paid to run the Mr Sibson: You have not put up any references Ombudsman's office. to it, if you are so concerned. We should add also the cost of the Legislative Mr B. T. Burke: I do not think he is telling; he Review and Advisory Committee-that is asking just in case you have. committee which looks at the subordinate legislation. Until a year or two ago, that was a Mr BERTRAM: I suggest certain functions of task performed exclusively by members of this place should be reorganised. I do not think Parliament. That needs to be added to the sum ordinary common sense and efficiency are served also. by having a Joint House Committee of 10 Mr Davies: Do we pay them? members; nor do I believe it is- Mr BERTRAM: We pay them at least Mr Jamieson: They do not get paid anything, $15 000, probably more. In addition, there is the you know. payment of rent, and probably a lot of other items Mr BERTRAM: They have far more to do which are not readily observed. than run this place. They were not sent here to sit Mr Laurance: You are making a good case for on the Joint House Committee, working out the showing how the Goverrnent is not niggardly. menus for members of Parliament, or the price of Mr BERTRAM: We have what is called a drinks in the bar. Joint House Committee to run tbis place. Mr Tonkin: They got pepper grinders on the Mr B. T. Burke: What a waste that is. tables. Mr BERTRAM: There are 10 members of Mr BERTRAM: The surplus members of the Parliament on the Joint House Committee. I Joint House Committee should be dealing with would estimate that would be twice the size of the the work now being done by the Legislative board of directors of BHP. Review and Advisory Committee. They should be doing that work, and there should not be 10 of Mr Dryce: The peacock throne, presided over them on the Joint House by a peacock. Committee. There is no need for 10 people to be wasting Mr BERTRAM: If we had anything their time on the Standing Orders Committee. I approaching an efficient Joint House Committee, have been in this place for about 12 years, and the the numbers could be diminished. contrbution from the Standing Orders Mr Sibson: If all the Labor Party members Compiittee has been minute indeed. resigned, that would reduce the numbers. Mi B. T. Burke: And the staff associated with Mr B. T. Burke: Why don't you go bag your the Joint House Committee as well. head? Mr BERTRAM: Perhaps the most important Mr BERTRAM: I do not see the name of the Standing Order in this Assembly is the one member for Bunbury on the Joint House dealing with the sub judice rule. It is years Commiittee. overdue for being put into something faintly Mr Sibson: I said if all the Labor Party resembling a decent shape. The Standing Orders members resigned, that .would reduce the Committee, with all of its 10 members including numbers. the member for Bunbury up in the Siberian bench Mr BERTRAM: I was coming to the Standing yonder, has done nothing to put even that Orders Committee. The member for Bunbury is Standing Order into shape. on the Standing Orders Committee. Does be ever We have a thick set of Standing Orders which attend any of the meetings? Does it ever meet? set- out the rules dealing with private Bills- Mr Sibson: Just look at the minutes. Mr Sibson: You are the most out-of-date Mr BERTRAM: Does it ever meet? Standing Order in this place. [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979J]64 4649

Mr BERTRAM: -which is rarely, if ever The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mr Blaikie): used. Probably the time has been reached when Order! I draw to the memnber's attention the fact all those Standing Orders could be repealed that he will have ample opportunity to speak to because they are no longer in use. the section to which he has just refferred under When working out the actual cost of this Division 2. At this stage it has bean generally Parliament, one should add also the costs of accepted and it is the agreed practice that debate phoney Royal Commissions. Instead of the will take place on the general topic of Parliament Government's sitting down and bringing in a Bill as a whole; The member for Mt. Hawthorn will to amend the Electoral Act, it went to huge have an opportunity to speak to the other items as expense and set up a Royal Commission to give to the debate proceeds. the amendments a certain respectability which Mr BERTRAM: I appreciate that. I was using they would not have otherwise. It could be it as an illustration of the point. The fact of the argued-fairly, I think-t4hat the Kay Royal matter is that if thac item as it recurs in the Commission was acting in a sort of quasi. various divisions is what I believe it to be, the legislative role. It performed a job that this total figure, which is already a huge amount and Parliament should have done itself. far too much for the value received by the public, There are occasions when there is a clear need of 52.687 million is a very real and significant for a Royal Commission. I am far from convinced understatement of the figure which will result in there was any reasonable or proper need to have a due course. Royal Commission in respect of the Electoral Act. As I have said, if the provision for salary There is one ray of light when one looks at page adjustments is there to cover increases in salaries, 27 of the Estimates, which deals with Fart 1, it does not appear to take into account the fact Parliament, in the Estimates of Revenue and that salary increases for public servants-and Expenditure for the year ending the 30th June, there are about 14 000 of them-are going to be 1980. Under the first vote, Legislative Council, much greater. In any event, any increase should one sees that the expenditure for 1978-79 was be much greater. The allowance seems to me, as I $17S 533 whilst the estimate for the next year is look through the various divisions, to be between less than that by 513 000. That is a rather 3 per cent and 4 per cent for an expected increase provocative situation-a reduction in a situation in pay. of extraordinary inflation. There is no restriction of inflation in anything this Government is doing; As I understand it, the public servants are but there is a reduction for the Legislative currently asking not for an increase of 3 per cent Council of thousands of dollars. or 4 per cent so far as their relativities are concerned, but for an increase of 15 per cent. In a similar way, under the vote for the Because they are asking for a 15 per cent Legislative Assembly there was an expenditure increase, it does not necessarily follow they will last year of 5202 073. This year, there will be a get it. reduction to $199 000, for some reason or other. I was told the other day that public servants When one looks at the following four items one have for years, since 1967, been falling back in finds they are all increased. So I am interested to know just how it is this rather odd situation the matter of relativhties. When their salaries are occurs. The first two item's show an unexpected compared with the salaries of others, it is found reduction of expenditure whilst the next four show they have dropped back to a pitiful and most what we would expect to see-an increase. unfair degree. The relative position of public servants has been eroded steadily since 1967. To Mr B. T. Burke: Inflation is on the increase too. restore public servants to the equivalent position Mr Bryce: What are we doing about that? they occupied in 1967 they would be required to Mr BERTRAM: I think the $2.687 million bring themselves back into balance with the estimate for 1979-80 is a grave understatement of following percentage increases: a cleaner, 21.8 per the likely result, because as one looks through the cent; a construction worker, 26 per cent; a various item Divisions 3 and 4'of this Part I- fireman, 70 per cent; a fitter, 8.1 per cent; a Parliament-one sees recurring from time to time foreman, 13.4 per cent; a gardener, 25.6 per cent; an entry, "Provision for salary adjustments". I do a nurse, 31.2 per cent; a parliamentarian, 14.9 per not know what that item means except perhaps cent;, a policeman, 17.3 per cent; a prison officer that it is an adjustment to bring into account 22.6 per cent; an SEC automatic clerk, 5 per cent; increases in salaries and wages during the next an SEC clerical assistant, I I per cent; and a financial year. teacher, 7.3 per cent. 4650 4650[ASSEMBLY]

So members will see they certainly have a I will deal with each of the matters in turn, but prima facie case for a Very substantial increase in more particularly I want to respond to the their pay. They have been fighting for such an comments made by the Deputy Leader of the increase for some years. 1 believe they put their Opposition. case before the appropriate tribunal back in May The member for Welshpool referred to a and they are still awaiting a determination. number of matters including travel facilities, On the figures I have just given, it would seem Standing Orders, tabling of papers, and the that on the probabilities, the increases in pay method of conducting divisions. which will follow will be far greater than the provision which appears to have been made So far as travel facilities are concerned, the throughout the various divisions of Part I, member for Welshpool admitted they had Parliament. If' there is something in that improved, but not to the extent that members argument, I would like to hear from the would like. I have made it clear that we are not Treasurer. I do not believe we should gdi along prepared to go any further at this stage. Some accepting an estimated figure if, on the improvements have taken place and, as a matter overwhelming possibilities, the estimate is widely of prudence, Parliament must have regard for the short of what the actual figure will be. In any restraints we are applying to other people. A event when he responds the Treasurer might be commitment has been made that, after the good enough to tell us precisely what is meant by election, the position will be reviewed. this Provision for salary adjustments wherever it One alternative method of organising travel occurs in the part, how it is calculated, and how it facilities was advanced; namely, an imprest is that he is satisfied, as Treasurer and Premier, system. This method appealed to some members, that the public servants are getting a reasonable but horrified others. Those who were horrified pay at this stage and that they are entitled only to were very conscious of the result of the an estimated increase in pay this financial year of Queensland system and they did not want to see a 3 per cent or 4 per cent. If the percentage is too repetition of that here. low, quite obviously the already staggering figure I have given the undertaking I have mentioned of $2.687 million needed to run this Parliament, would have to be increased even further. and no doubt I will be prompted about it in due course; but it is intended to review the matter and Members should keep in mind that in the last that is the only way it can be handled, as part of a financial year-and appearing in the Loan total review which takes place from time to time Budget. I presume-there was an expenditure of of the costs of Parliament and the facilities and $1 million or more which became necessary in privileges we enjoy. 1974 with the increase of the Parliament by six members-four in the Assembly and two in the So far as the Standing Orders are concerned, upper House-when the Government has no and matters relating to the introduction of Bills, I justification at all to do so. Certainly there was no must admit I sympathise with the views expressed mandate asked by the Government. and no by the member for Welshpool. I have never been mandate was given. It was simply a move to able to understand why, for as long as I can advantage the Liberal Party. As I pointed out to remember, Ministers have been allowed to use the Chamber before, the Premier's manoeuvre notes when introducing Bills on the ground that was at the expense of every one of us and of our they are required because of the technical detail constituents, none of whom was consulted to involved and the necessity to be accurate; enable the Treasurer to become the first Liberal whereas, when a private member introduces a Premier of this State; that is to say, a Liberal Bill, for some reason or other he is denied that Premier without a coalition. That was the prime right. objective and the people of Western Australia are I must say, however, that some members are currently paying at least $500 000 a year for that able to overcome the ruling and one can hardly move, and each year that figure will increase; it blame them for that. This is not a matter which will go on indefinitely. They are a few comments should be discussed in detail in this Chamber. It which are certainly well justified on this Part 1, has been raised by the member for Welshpool and Parliament. it should now be taken up with the Standing SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands- Orders Committee, in conjunction with the Treasurer) [12.09 a.mJ: If all the Parliament has Speaker and Chairman of Committees, to see to worry about in respect of this part of the whether an adjustment can be made and a Estimates is what has been advanced tonight, the working arrangement arrived at which will be Government must be doing very well. satisfactory to all. [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979! 465165

I agree with the member for Welshpool that, for a member to vote anonymously, because he when one is speaking, it is not a good practice to has a place on a board and when he presses his read notes. I find it rather disturbing. One tends button a light goes on and that is that. I am not to lose one's personality and individuality. sure of the provisions for erasing a vote when a Sometimes one becomes thoroughly bored reading member presses the wrong button; but I gather the words set out; but, in the interests of they have a system where, by arrangement with accuracy, one sometimes uses notes. the officers, a vote may be changed before the end A pertinent statement was made recently at a of the division. gathering which took place outside Federal Mr Jamieson: That would be covered by Parliament in Canberra. It was said that much of amending Standing Orders. the personality had gone out of Parliament as a result of speeches being read and copious notes Sir CHARLES COURT: This method is very being used. quick and effective. In case members have the idea they can vote anonymously, I should like to In this regard, the use of speech notes by people point out that there is no chance of that, because in public positions when making public the votes are recorded electronically for all time. appearances has been forced on them, be~ause of the problems they experience in the way in which The Deputy Leader of the Opposition ranted their remarks are reported. Many such people about the allegedly shabby attempt to hobble the laboriously read notes so they can say, "Thai is Opposition. lHe referred to the fact that the what I said." Government is "running scared". He spent a long The use of notes has a tendency to inhibit time talking about telexes as if they were the end people. However, past statesmen-i refer to of the earth. I do not want to rake over the coals, people like Sir Robert Menzies and but when I compare the treatment accorded the others-usually spoke With the assistance of a few present Opposition with the treatment we received headings only. I believe they were much more when we were in Opposition, it is obvious that the effective and they seemed to get by very well. In present Opposition is in heaven. modern times, the problems in regard to getting Mr Davies: We will put you in heaven next one's message across have increased, no doubt due Year. to the fact that fewer reporters seem to use Mr Skidmore: I anm not too sure about that. I shorthand. do not understand what you are talking about. In the old days a reporter of any capacity was Sir CHARLES COURT: The Leader of the particularly good at writing shorthand, as a result Opposition and his deputy of which it became his greatest weapon when know, because they challenged by a politician who believed he had have mentioned, this matter to me. When we were been misreported, because the reporter could in Opposition and wanted an extra staff member always go back and quote from his notebook. I am we were told we could not have one. The not certain about this, but I believe that at one appointment had been approved and the Public time many of the Hansard reporters were Service Board had selected the person for the job; recruited from journalistic staff, because these but the Premier's Department told us we could people were extremely competent Shorthand not employ that person. As a result, I had to pay writers. that employee out of my own pocket for the time Mr Davies: They have tape recorders now. she was employed. The Government of the day was not even prepared, in view of the mistake Sir CHARLES COURT: The tabling of papers which had been made by the Public Service is a matter which should be discussed with the Board, to accept the cost incurred in employing Standing Orders Committee. I would not like to that person for a few weeks. If I recited some -of enter into any argument on that. Most of us the experiences we had in regard to the provision understand the rules in regard to the matter and I of motor vehicles and the like, members would cannot recall any flagrant breaches of them. realise the present Opposition is enjoying a The member for Welshpool referred to division charmed run compared with the situation when bells. I do not know whether it would be possible we were in Opposition. to install a system such as he mentioned in this place, because some people would object to it. In Mr Davies: Times have changed. answer to the member for Welshpool, I must say I Sir CHARLES COURT: I do not mention that have seen a system working in India where there by way of vindication. We try to treat the is a very big Parliament and it is amazing how Opposition fairly and we consider the quickly they handle a division, It is not possible representations it makes. 4652 4652[ASSEMBLY)

I want to remind the Deputy Leader of the lauding the fact that day in day out I was keeping Opposition that there can be only one in touch with what was happening. Government at a time. The Deputy Leader of the Mr Davies: Is it correct that the newspaper was Opposition referred to wasted paper and reams of sent over by vocodex? telex messages being sent all over the World. His statement amazes me, because the bill for the Sir CHARLES COURT: That is news to me. telex operated by the Premier's Department The Deputy Leader of the Opposition was talking amounted to $15 000 for the year. That telex about the vocodex. I do not know who gives him operates hammer and tongs all day and this information; it is news to me. I cannot sometimes well into the night. It does not deal remember seeing a vocodex copy of the with the business of the Premier only; but it deals newspaper. I had. a "bovrilised" version only of also with the work of the Treasury Department. .the news which was very cleverly done on a That telex operates throughout the day and number of points of concern to the Premier only. sometimes into the night. The work of the They were requests I made. However, with the Department of Industrial Development goes Leader of the Opposition's reference to vocodex through the same telex and the Deputy Premier copies, in my experience they are not all that uses it also. I am amazed the bill is only $15 000 effective; one cannot get it to work every time and a year, because that telex handles a great deal of even the most sophisticated hotels in the main rely Government work. on telex. To the best of my knowledge Ministers do not Mr Bryce: Isn't the Leader of the Opposition have their own telexes. Some of them use the entitled to be as informed and able to Premier's Department's telex; some of them use a communicate on the business of government? departmental telex in the building in which they Sir CHARLES COURT: I said previously, and are situated; and some of them use telexes will repeat again, that there can be only one belonging to the instrumentalities. Government at a time and the Government has If anyone has the idea that every Minister is the responsibility of keeping in touch and sitting with his hands poised over the telex communicating with the Federal Government and keyboard, he should remove that thought from his other Governments as well as others with whom it mind, because such a situation does not. apply. must communicate. Regardless of which party is The hysterical outburst on the part of the Deputy in Government, a parallel Government is just not Leader of the Opposition ill becomes him. He has on. The present Opposition has better facilities to understand that there can be only one than any previous Opposition ever had. Government at a time. I tried to explain that in a Mr Bryce: Old man thinking. Get out of the tactful manner on a previous occasion when I was ark, out of the 19th century and the 1960s. Leave approached by a member of the Opposition. them behind. It is the task of the Government to get the Sir CHARLES COURT: That is the reason message of the State across. It is the Government the Opposition has better facilities-because we which has to do the business of the State, and are out of the ark. We do accept the fact that with all the dealings through the Loan Council there is change. It is about time the Deputy which are being carried on night and day, it is the Leader of the Opposition realised that. It has Government which has to communicate become an obsession with him. constantly with the Federal Government and Mr Tonkin: The gap is wider. other State Governments on these and other matters of state. The suggestion that there is an Sir CHARLES COURT: That is just not true. attempt to hobble the Opposition is just plain Government today is much more sophisticated nonsense. and much more pressurised than it was in the days of the Brand Government or the Tonkin I remind the members opposite, and Government. particularly the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, that other Oppositions have had themselves Mr Bryce: So is the Opposition; can't you elected to Government with much inferior understand that? facilities than those presently possessed by the Sir CHARLES COURT: The Opposition has Opposition. The reference to my running the more facilities and has far more time to do these Cabinet from overseas would be rather amusing things than the Government has. I have been in to my colleagues. Of course I kept in touch. The Opposition twice-once for six years and once for same man would be standing up saying I was on a three years. I know what it is all about. I know it holiday and did not keep in touch with what was can be very frustrating for the Leader of the happening here if I did not do so. He should be Opposition and the Deputy Leader of the [Tuesday, 13th November, 19791]65 4653

Opposition, but if they look at the situation they Mr Bryce: This Premier would be the first to will find that they are fairly treated. spend such a large amount of money on telexes. I am not suggesting that that is the end of the No Premier in this State's history has gone- matter; it is kept under review from time to time. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Opposition members must realise they cannot Sir CHARLES COURT: The Deputy Leader have everything for which they ask. The Ministers of the Opposition was absent when I remarked are subjected to constraints also. I am not one that I was amazed that the cost of the Premier's who believes they should have everything for telex was only $15 000 when it services the which they ask. Ministers must set an example to Department of Industrial Development, the their departments and to other people. Treasury, the Deputy Premier, and the Premier. Mr Bryce: We are not suggesting you should The Deputy Leader of the Opposition does not give this to all. Opposition members, just the understand what government is about. If he knew leader. of the operations of the telex as far as the Treasury is concerned he would then have some Sir CHARLES COURT: Members today have idea. The Department of Industrial Development more facilities than previous members of with its communications on matters of trade has Parliament had. the telex working regularly and I am amazed that Mr Bryce: I am talking about the alternative the cost was only £15 000. The Ministers do not Premier in this State. have telexes of their own. Sir CHARLES COURT: I have been Leader Mr Bryce: They have access to them. of the Opposition and Deputy Leader of 'the Sir CHARLES COURT: Of course they have Opposition-, I know what it is all about. I have because they happen to be Ministers. They have come into Government twice from that position departments and instrumentalities to run. with less facilities than the Opposition has now. Several members interjected. Mr Bryce: Times have changed in the last six. The CHAIRMAN: Order! years. Sir CHARLES COURT: We on this side have Sir CHARLES COURT: I ask the Deputy been in Opposition before and have had to drive Leader of the Opposition to be a little patient and our own cars and have our families drive our cars realise that, regardless of which party is in power, to ceremonial occasions because we were refused there can be only one Government at a time. these facilities by the Government. The Mr H. D. Evans: The use of a charter aircraft Opposition is being better treated today then ever is something which has became remarkably before. frequent with this Government. Mr Bryce: And aren't your Government Sir CHARLES COURT: Is the honourable Ministers in the same position? They have the same member suggesting we should not use charter facilities at their disposal. aircraft and we should not have communication Sir CHARLES COURT: Not much more. with people in the context they demand? Mr Bryce: lust take the telex for example. Mr Bryce: What about the Leader of the Sir CHARLES COURT: You have a talk to Opposition? Will you give it to him? them. Some have been in Government before and Sir CHARLES COURT: The Leader of the they would not say that facilities are much better Opposition has unlimited travel within the State. than before. The member for Mt. Hawthorn spoke on his Mr Bryce: With charter air service? hardy annual. I will obtain a more detailed Sir CHARLES COURT: He has unlimited air statement for him because it will probably save a travel with scheduled air services, as he wants; lot of examination in the whole of the debate on there are no questions asked. the Estimates and the different departments to Mr Davies: On the question of the telex, the show how the allowance was made for anticipated Premier must admit I have shown restraint by not wage movements. The member for Mt. Hawthorn sending telegrams. misinterpreted that figure. However, I will provide him with the Budget details and the Sir CHARLES COURT: I expect the Leader method used for the provision of the expected of the Opposition to show some responsibility and escalation of wages during the period. I remind set an example. members that the budgeted amount set aside the Mr Davies: It would be quite easy to involve the previous year had not been used fully. We set Government in more costs by sending telegrams. aside a sum on the best advice at that time. 4654 4654[ASSEMBLY]

The figure proved to be in excess of what was It will be recalled that the position of needed because of a different procedure used in Parliamentary Commissioner for Administrative the national wage case last year. I will make Investigations--commonly referred to as the available to the member the information, and the Ombudsman-was created by the Tonkin manner it is dealt with in the accounts. Administration. There were a great number of Votes: Legislative Council, $162 000; applicants for the job and considerable lobbying Legislative Assembly, $199 000; Joint House occurred. Many people were hurt because they were not selected as the person for the position. Committee, $1 677 000; Joint Printing Committee, $391 000-put and passed. I must confess I wondered whether Mr Dixon was the best person for the position, even though Vote: Joint Library Committee, $89 000- he had wide experience. It soon became quite The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mr Blaikie): In obvious to me that he was, indeed, the best order to facilitate proceedings on the debate on selection that could have been made. He the Estimates, I indicate to members they must approached his work with a great deal of zeal and understand that once we proceed we will not enthusiasm. Indeed, at times I think he went return to an earlier item. The member for Mt. further than we reasonably might have expected Hawthorn has indicated that he wishes to speak to him to go. I am referring to personal inspections Item No. 2. If no member wishes to speak to Item and interviews with clients or people who had No. 1, we will proceed. complained and who felt at least there was Item No. 2: Administration Expenses, including somebody available to whom they could talk. grant to Library and rebinding books, $25 000- The results of the work done by Mr Dixon have been published each year in his annual report to Mr BERTRAM: I notice in the other divisions Parliament. After the initial rush of complaints, there is reference, under contingencies, to the the number developed into a regular and steady item of pay-roll tax, but I see no mention of pay- stream. Since his appointment, an Assistant roll tax in this item. Parliamentary Commissioner, and some other Sir CHARLES COURT: I cannot provide an staff, have been appointed. immediate answer in respect of this particular We can be grateful for the work which Mr item. The contingencies item-No. 2-is very Dixon has done in this field for the people of explicit. Western Australia. He has been eminently With regard to this specific question, I will Find successful and it will be hard to replace him. I out the reason for the honourable member. have already mentioned his dedication and Vote put and passed. enthusiasm in his high public office. His dedication and enthusiasm have been well and Vote: Parliamentary Commission for truly recognised and it will be hard for his Administrative Investigations, $169 000- successor to follow. That is probably a sweeping Item No. 1: Salaries, Wages and Allowances, statement, and there is no doubt that there are $129 000- people who, having noted the pattern and Mr DAVIES: The expenditure last year was standard set by Mr Dixon, will be able to maintain that standard. If the successor to the job The estimate for down by something like $28 000. is able to maintain that standard we will be very this year seems to be running at average, at grateful to Mr Dixon for setting it. $129000 and perhaps the Treasurer will be able to tell us why there is such a large drop in this As Mr Dixon will retire in January of next item. I understand there is to be a staff of Year, this is possibly the last occasion that this one-the Parliamentary Commissioner himself. Parliament will have to officially pay tribute to There seems to be a considerable drop in the the work he has done. Let me say that members estimate. on this side of the House have been grateful to Mr Dixon, particularly because he has provided a However, that is not the real reason I have legal avenue of complaint in regard to certain risen. I want to say this is an opportunity for the Government departments and certain ldical Opposition to express its sincere appreciation of government organisations. Many of those the work done by the first Parliamentary complaints could be dealt with previously more or Commissioner for Administrative Investigations less only by way of blackmail. I do not like to use (Mr Oliver Dixon). I was somewhat concerned that word, but every member is aware of what I when, a few months ago, I heard the Speaker read mean. It used to be a case of telling a Government to the House a message from Mr Dixon indicating employee that one considered a person was that as from January next year he would retire. getting a rough deal, and that if something was [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979] 465545 not done about it the matter would be raised in for future Parliamentary Commissioners to follow the Chamber. A syndrome developed over the on and enilarge on the work he has done. years, and I am sure the Deputy Premier was In considering this Estimate and perhaps one or aware of the situation. two others, I remind members that where people With the appointment of the Parliamentary operate under special Acts it is only the salaries of Commissioner, a legal avenue for complaint was their staff which appear in the division. The provided. It was efficient, and complaints were salaries of the individuals themselves have to dealt with properly. A considerable load was appear in a special part of the papers, and in this taken off members of Parliament, and a case it is pages 23 and 24, where we have the considerable amount of unpleasantness special Acts. disappeared. I know I obtained no joy from going All people and payments which are to a Government department and threatening to automatically authorised by special Acts are set put the finger on it because I felt it had out on those pages. One of those is the mistreated some person. Parliamentary Commissioner for Administrative Mr Dixon took over those duties from members Investigations, whose salary has been shown for of Parliament and he carried them out thoroughly 1978-79 as actual expenditure of $34 924. This year the figure will be higher because we have the and exactly. He is one of the most careful persons question of I know in dealing his retirement and the new with matters of this nature. He commissioner who will be coming in due course. has held himself above reproach. He is an officer of Parliament and that is the reason the Estimate Vote put and passed. for his department appears in this division. Pant 2: Premier and Treasurer- Because he is an officer of Parliament, he is MR BRYCE (Ascot-Deputy Leader of the answerable only to Parliament. Indeed, in some Opposition) [ 12.42 am.]: I would like to take the respects [ think he might be superior to members opportunity presented to me in this part of the of Parliament. Estimates to put a constructive suggestion to the He stands alone, but in that standing alone he Government, primarily because the appointment has set a high standard in the work he has done, of Cabinet Ministers is the Premier's and it is a standard to which the person who responsibility, and it is the Premier who is succeeds him will have to aspire. responsible for designing the shape of the Government. On behalf of the Opposition, I am very pleased indeed to have this opportunity to pay a tribute to As this State of ours enters the 1980s, I put it our first Parliamentary Commissioner for to the Premier that it is appropriate to suggest Administrative Western Australia needs a Minister for Investigations (Mr Oliver Dixon).' technology. In my opinion, the 1980s will be a Sir CHARLES COURT: In answer to the decade of transition with a fairly significant Leader of the Opposition's query in relation to degree of dislocation to our social and economic Item No. 1, where the vote last year was $127 000 institutions. It will be a decade of transition and the actual expenditure was $99 509, this between the sort of society which emerged from would be purely relktted to the fall of the staff. the Second World War and the type of society we This year we have made provision for an Assistant will have going into the next century. Parliamentary Commissioner, but last year we In looking at the shape of a traditional State had no expenditure at all for him; and we also Cabinet in the 1970s, whether it be Liberal *or have provision for a new appointment. The drop Labor, we have Ministers for Fisheries, Fauna, in actual expenditure last year as against the vote Lands, Forests, Mines, Industrial Development, is entirely related to the fall in staff, and the Agriculture, and a whole range of traditional increase projected for this year is related to the areas of Government activity, but I do not think new appointments proposed. any of those I have just named will equal the These are not easy appointments to fil because significance and weight of responsibility which they require people of a special temperament. In this entire area related to technological change that regard, I appreciate the work which has been will have as it affects our society during the done by the retiring Parliamentary Commissioner, course of the 1980s, in terms of an actual and the remarks which have been made by the Ministry for technology. I suggest it is a matter to Leader of the Opposition concerning him are very which a Government should give serious thought. appropriate. We all know him for what he has The phenomenon which is referred to as done; and the tactful, quiet, and unostentatious technological change is very much an way he has gone about his job has paved the way international phenomenon. It is much bigger than 4656 4656[ASSEMBLY] any particular political party in this Parliament or I have said on a number of occasions that I any particular Government in this country. It is cannot understand why the member for Gascoyne an international phenomenon and in many ways it and a number of his colleagues seek to make is inevitable. midschief in respect of this question and to Having said that, it is *obvious it will have a misrepresent the position of the Labor Party as very significant effect on almost every social, being opposed to technological change. economic, and political institution.in this country, As the spokesman for my political party in this and during the course of the next decade it will particular area, I recognise some very exciting certainly affect almost every family in the features for the future. There are some wonderful community. It occurs to me at this end that advantages to maximise. A great many average because of what I see as a decade of transition wage and salary earners in this community will with a considerable degree of dislocation and benefit to a rather significant degree because of change, it would be highly appropriate for the cessation of job drudgery as a large number of Premier to appoint a Minister for technology. I do horrific repetitive jobs disappear. I am sure many not believe it is appropriate at this stage for the people carrying out these tasks today cannot wait Premier to turn to his Minister for Labour and for these jobs to disappear. Industry and say, "Technology is your Our ability to solve problems in many areas will responsibility; you are the Government spokesman in respect of that particular issue." To do that be vastly improved, and the actual increase in would be to define the phenomenon in productivity in our society will be something from a much too which I sincerely hope all of us-and I mean all narrow fashion. of us-will benefit. The problem itself will transcend quite a wide range of different Government departments. I am Having conceded those pieces of good news for sorry the Minister for Education is not here this the future, there is a real responsibility for Government to be evening; I would like to pose a number of involved if the social and questions to him. The problem will involve the economic problems that stem from the social and Mininster for Education significantly. it will also economic dislocations are to be minimised. involve the Minister for Industrial Development I heard a rather disturbing analogy recently and the Minister for Labour and Industry. It will when a conservative party politician Maid that probably involve every Minister on the front water always finds its own level eventually so we bench, but in four or five portfolios the impact of should stand back and let it do so. As a member technological change will be more apparent. who represents some 36 000 people-men, women, and children-I am very concerned It would probably be a difficult Ministry to that administer. It would be an umbrella-type if that philosophy is adopted the maximum Ministry which would need an individual who was number of people will be mulched in the process. capable of working with other Government If the Government of our State, working side Ministers without unnecessarily treading on their by side with the Government of the nation, is toes. prepared to bite the bullet, and if those I would like to demonstrate why I sincerely Governments are convinced of their abilities to be believe we should be looking in the direction of able to influence the pattern that these new Governments of this State establishing a Ministry developments will take, this would be a beginning. of technology. It occurs to me that as we go into I would like to suggest to the Premier that one of the 1980s the phenomenon will be a significant the ways in which Governments can play a challenge to Governments, particularly at State positive role in this particular field is to appoint a and national level. It will be more significant than Minister for technology, and to give that Minister any other challenge in such a confined period of the human and financial resources necessary to time since the Second World War, and it will take Western Australia into the 1980s. require human financial resources. I think the Questions answered in this place by the rehailitation schemes which will be necessary responsible Government Ministers-very few of will involve finance, Government organisation and whom really understand the changes that have administration, and human resources on a scale been indentified already in so many of these which will equal the rehabilitation courses areas-indicate that the Government at this following the Second World War. Vast numbers particular time simply does not know very much of people will be displaced and will require to be about the rate at and the extent to which the wave retrained, in the first instance; to say nothing of of new technology is causing economic and social the problems which will face youngsters entering dislocation in our community. I suggest to the the work force for the first time. Premier that every year we wait before we [Tuesday, 13th November, 19791 454657 establish a Ministry of technology and appoint a small business or any tiny Government Minister we will be exacerbating the problems for department or agency can afford to apply the new the individual ultimately given that job in this technology. State. Of course in many instances the new I am quite convinced that by the mid-1980s technology will be labour saving and people will every State of Australia and most assuredly the be displaced from employment. However, people national Government will have a Minister for have testified before our own committee to technology. Through you, Mr Deputy Chairman inquire into this matter to the effect that it is not (Mr Blaikie) I would like to put a plea to the always necessary immediately to retrench vast Premier that Western Australia should not be the numbers of workers when so many labour-saving last State to recognise the significance of this devices are introduced. In many cases the work phenomenon; in fact, we want to be amongst the force is slightly increased, but the key to the leaders of opinion in our nation-we could be the problem is that a firm's productive capacity in leaders. With great effect we could appoint a many cases is incr-eased by 100 or 200 per cent. It Minister to tackle some of these great changes. has been pointed out that it will be perhaps five, Most of us in this Chamber would concede that six, or seven years before such companies will find technology is not new and technological change is it necessary to turn to the labour market again to not a new phenomenon. However, some members increase the number of people on their staff. opposite-and even some of my own colleagues I am not condemning these firms; 1 am simply did not agree with me initially-do not realise the making the observation that they do not see the speed with which the change is occurring. It is not need to turn to the young people coming into the simply a question of technological change, but it work force for the first time. I believe this is one is the speed of that change which makes a very of the reasons that 40 per cent of the unemployed important qualitative difference. people in this State-and as a general rule in this Not long ago I heard the Minister for Labour nation-are under the age of 20. So many of the and Industry say that when the chain saw routine jobs that would have been available to replaced the axe, that was a technological junior workers have simply disappeared because improvement. That statement does not of the different application of this new demonstrate an understanding of the actual speed technology. Firms are looking for more of the present change or the degree of exprienced workers to step into reasonably sophistication of the current wave of technological responsible positions because so many of the change. routine jobs have gone. The industrial revolution spanned a period of One of the matters that must concern the 120 to 130 years, and that followed the Government, and one that would greatly concern agricultural revolution which covered a similar any Minister for technology, is that the wave of Period. The third great economic revolution is the technological change occurring in our economy is electronic revolution and the big difference here is occurring at the same time as a massive that it will take place over a period of 20 or 30 international economic downturn, and at the time years. that the national Government of this country has One of my main concerns is that I am not sure embarked upon four successive deflationary whether our social institutions are equipped with Budgets which have produced a very severe the leaders or the simple fabric necessary to cope degree of contraction in our economy. with this speed of change. Those two economic phenomenons on their own I would like to think that the Government will have produced a very exhausted economy. At the do something sooner rather than later to prepare same time that our economy is on its knees in this for some of the changes that lie right ahead of us. allegorical sense, we have a wave of technological Already we have seen a tremendous reduction in change sweeping through the economy and the cost of this technology, an improvement in its displacing a significant number of -people. That reliability, and a great reduction in its size and exacerbates the problem; and I ind it hard to weight. The technology can be purchased readily understand why the Government continues to and applied to so many of our social, political, and keep its head in the sand and to suggest that the economic institutions. Just 15 years ago Minister for Labour and Industry has sole essentially only large manufacturing industries responsibility for the matter. That is really a could afford coiputer-controlled automated 1040s, 1950s, or 1960s sort of attitude. This is a processes in industry. Today, through very new problem of a major dimension, and it microprocesses and microtechnology, almost any deserves specific attention. 4658 4658[ASSEMBLY]

Candidly speaking, I think it is most unfair to that fabric a little further. I suggest the fabric expect the Minister for Labour and probably has a readily identifiable breaking point. Industry-and Consumer Affairs and goodness Bear in mind that as a backdrop to this scene we knows what else-to tackle the responsibilities of will have a growing number of young people, this phenomenon, basically because in itself it is many of whom may never have had jobs in their so broad and it involves so many different lives and have reached their mid-20s. They will problems. We in the Labor Party have discovered have little reason indeed to feel sympathetic about this as a result of submissions made to our own the cherished values of our society. They are the committee of inquiry. In my opinion it is also sort of~ people who could well be the Baader- fairly obvious a separate Minister will really be Meinhof gangs of Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne, needed to cape with some of the difficulties which Sydney, and Brisbane in the late 1980s if-and I will arise; because the wave of 'technological emphasis "if"-Govrnrnents sit back and do change will not spread uniformly through OUr nothing and pretend or hope the problem itself society. Technological change will occur in a will by itself solve itself. I think that kind of series of peaks and surges from one sector of the laissez-faire attitude is inviting the highest economy to the other. An enormous variation will possible degree of danger as far as our society is occur in the actual application of the new concerned. technology, and some industries will lag as much It concerns me that practically no Government as 20 to 25 years behind others, waiting for in Australia has done its homework and put itself different applications of the new technology to in a position to be prepared to handle some of the enable them to catch up in some way. problems to which I have referred. I understand So on one hand there will be industries which the New South Wales Government has recently will benefit from sudden, dramatic, windfall gains appointed a Minister for Technology. That is a in productivity; while on the other hand some step in the right direction. I have already industries will have to battle to survive in indicated that I believe by the mid-1980s every different sectors right alongside those which will Government in Australia will have a Minister for benefit. I would hope that any Government which technology; and I suggest the Premier moves now is genuinely concerned to minimise the amount of rather than wait another four, five, or six years. I conflict in our community will not be waiting for am not suggesting he will be at the helm for that the differences of opinion and the problems that long; however, he may have the opportunity to do will be thrown up as a result of the new something. In the short term the Government of technological era to be solved in one industry this State certainly should take up this matter as after another as a result of trade union versus a question of principle. employer confrontation. In my mind I have no One of the reasons I believe we need a Minister doubt whatsoever that as the new technology for technology who is not the Minister for Labour spreads through our economy a series of and Industry is that the very phenomenon itself is differences of opinion will emerge between multi-faceted; it is not just a question of industrial employers and employees in respect of such things relations. Therefore, it is not good enough for the as the hours which should comprise a working Premier to talk about manpower planning week or a working day, and the conditions committees or interdepartmental committees relating to retrenchments. A whole host of areas comprising representatives from the Departments will emerge in which employers and employees of Labour and Industry and Industrial will differ seriously one with the other. Development. It will be a great tragedy for our society if Where does the education system fit into this Governments sit back and say, "Let them brawl it problem? It has been left on the outer. I was out at the level of the workshop floor; let us not astonished-and I might say for reasons of intervene." Governments have a responsibility to political advantage I have repeated this in an establish standards and to provide leadership; if endeavour to get the message across-at the they do not do that the level of conflict will reach answer from the Minister for Education when I alarming proportions by the mid-1980s. I am not asked him in this place 12 months ago what he sure that the social fabric of our society can and his department had done to identify the tolerate a higher degree of conflict than that challenges, and the needs for the education which has already crept into Western Australian system in respect of technological change in the and Australian politics, the Australian economy, 1980s. I was appalled at the answer, which was in and social institutions in a general sense. three parts. Firstly the Minister said, "We have Perhaps some politicians think that for the sake come to the conclusion that school teachers will of a little politically vested interest they can push not be replaced by computers." Hurrah for the [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979] 465965

Minister, and hurrah for the teachers! Secondly, people-who are starting to advocate cut-backs in the Minister said, "We have switched the system education and insisting at this point of time we of paying school teachers over to a computer." must return to the old system of teaching. the Thirdly, he said, "We have established a centre "three R's". This is about the most inappropriate for computer studies at the Mirrabooka High time in our history to start trotting out that 19th School." century argument. I would never suggest for a That answer reflected such a barren level of moment that the "three R's" are not terribly thinking within the education system. If the important and very fundamental to anybody's answer was prepared for the Minister by a education. But how extraordinary it is as we go responsible educator in the system, it should into the 1980s, that people should seriously alarm every member of Parliament. If that is the suggest the level of money allocated to education should be cut back; that we have been true extent of the planning of the Education overindulging ourselves in the 1970s in respect of Department to handle the matter of technological that particular field of Government responsibility; change, then each of us has a significant problem and that what we should have been doing is to worry about. restricting our energies and activities to teaching I put it to the Premier that a significant the "three R's". amount of money and human resources will be A whole range of new programmes is necessary: necessary for retraining programmes. That is not the changes which confront our schools are just the responsibility of the Minister for Labour enormous. Adults will be going back into schools. and Industry. It involves the education system to In fact,' I understand that something like a dozen a significant degree. In addition there is the adults are enrolled as full-time students at the question of an information policy. I guess many Kelmscott High School. The role of secondary members of this Chamber do not know what I schools in our education system is going to change mean when I talk about a State or national significantly. information policy. The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mr Blaikie): A whole range of questions arise concerning Order! I call the member's attention to the fact civil liberties. In the foreseeable future every we are discussing Part 2, Premier and Treasurer. reasonably large medical centre will have its I have been following his argument with interest. records on computer tape. People, including I believe he may be delving into the realms of ourselves, will know that our medical, academic, responsibility of the Minister for Education. In and financial records will be kept on tape and order to facilitate the proceedings of the stored somewhere. A fascinating variety of Committee I would appreciate his co-operation. questions arise regarding the rights of individuals. Mr BRYCE: You have my complete Co- Have we the right to have access to the operation, Mr Deputy Chairman. I was seeking to information to be sure that our medical, demonstrate only that the responsibilities involved economic, and financial records are truthful and in this question of technological change relate to a accurate? We have not. much broader field than simply the Portfolio Of There is no law in this State at present which the Minister for Labour and Industry. I appeal to protects the rights of individuals in respect of how the Premier to recognise that this matter concerns that vast data bank of information on individuals industrial development, as it relates to the is handled or exchanged from one Organisation to electronic industry; it relates to education, with another, or from one individual to an the need for retraining programmes; it relates to Organisation, or from one individual to another the field of industrial relations, as it affects the individual. I am certain nobody has given much number of hours and years which are worked in a thought to such legislation. There is a whole career. About half a dozen of his Ministers should range of issues and questions which have nothing be concerning themselves with some very serious to do with the Minister for Labour and Industry. questions relating to this phenomenon. One of the most tragic observations one could I conclude by reiterating my appeal to the make in respect of the education system is that at Premier to give some serious thought to the early the very time when our education system should appointment of a Minister for technology rather be planning to cope with a real change in society than have Western Australia face the reality as and providing enormous rehabilitation we go into the mid-1980s or the late 1980s of programmes in the long run, we have being the only State without such a Minister, conservatives in Australia-I do not mean every simply because too many of our so-called conservative politician when I say this; they would responsible politicians simply could not see the be reactionary, rather than conservative need for such a portfolio at an early stage. 4660 4660[ASSEMBLY]

MR CARR (Geraldton) [1.15 a.m.]: I wish to However, in the main, those supplies reasonably make a constructive suggestion to the Premier. I expected to be required would be kept in the refer to Division 16, Goverment Stores. At the regional Government Stores. moment, this section is centralised in Perth. 1 Secondly, such a move would reduce freight, by reiterate the point of view which has been being able to cart items in large numbers, rather expressed previously by other members as well as than individually. myself that the Government Stores should be Thirdly, it would increase the opportunity for decentralised at least to the regional centres of the country suppliers to quote for the supply of State. Government materials. Some estimates have been At the moment, civil servants based in the made as to the benefit such a move would bring to country experience problems in the purchase of regional businesses. Business houses in Kalgoorlie various supplies and materials. In the main, they estimated that the appointment of regional must order these supplies from Perth. I realise purchasing officers could result in a 60 per cent they have limited scope to use local purchase increase in local content of goods supplied to orders; however, in the main, supplies are ordered Government departments in country areas. from Perth. I know the Government has a preference for This creates a number of problems. Firstly, it country suppliers in the supply of goods and causes a delay in getting items to the country services for the Government; this policy should areas to the particular department which needs enable the type of system I am advocating to be them. Secondly, it creates a problem with higher very effective. It would also help employment in freight rates, in that when items are transported the regional centres, because some of those 209 one at a time, the freight rate is higher than it employees currently situated in the central office would be if a considerable number of items were in Perth could be located in some of the regional forwarded in the one consignment. Thirdly, centres of the State. country suppliers have a limited opportunity to It is my understanding the department is not quote for the supply of goods and materials happy with the present situation, and that required for Government use. representations have been made to the This problem has been raised on a number of Government seeking the appointment of regional occasions, most notably by the member for purchasing officers. As far as I am aware, no Yilgarn-Dundas, who raised it in the Kalgoorlie positive action has been taken to implement this area. Since the matter has been raised, I have had recommendation. I am aware the Government has a strong response fyrom Government employees in given consideration to the matter; a recent answer my area who have pointed out the problems to a question asked in this place indicated the involved in this type of system and strongly Government had received representations on the supported the suggestion of appointing regional matter, and was giving them consideration. purchasing officers to country areas. Perhaps it could be argued the Government has I suggest the Government should appoint been a little tardy in not implementing the regional purchasing officers to each of the suggestion; however, I am certainly not wishing to regional centres and direct all its Government take a heavy hand to the Government at this purchases for the area through that regional stage. officer. The Government should establish in I would be pleased if this improvement took these regional centres Government Stores place. I hope the Government moves to implement buildings-by which I mean warehouses-in the recommendations that have been made. If which should be kept a fairly large stock of stores, there is action in the pipeline, 1 am sure members able to meet reasonably expected demand in the would be very pleased to hear of it. area. In doing so, I believe the Government I put the point of view that this is something should give as much preference and that would benefit the Government considerably encouragement as possible to local suppliers in its in the regional centres as well as benefit the purchase of materials and supplies. general economy of the regional centres. I hope If this decentralisation of Government Stores the Government acts on this matter at some not- were to take place, a number of advantages would too-distant time. accrue. Firstly, the delays I mentioned earlier in MR DAVIES (Victoria Park-Leader of the most cases would be overcome. I am sure there Opposition) [1.21 am.]: Often the Premier has would still be isolated cases where the particular said we have plenty of opportunities to probe the item required was not available at the regional Government and to query its workings. I agree centre and had to be ordered from Perth. with him. I do not think 1.20 in the morning is the [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979] 464661 proper time to be probing Government me directly, and they are giving me information expenditure. If the Premier has elected to do that, about the situation. We are receiving information he is running the Chamber and we do not make from various sides-perhaps more from outside any apologies for going on with what we intended than inside. In addition to that, I have the opinion to ask. of a Queen's Counsel in my office. Some of the things I will raise have been of As I said, the further action I take along those concern for a long time. Although we might try to lines will depend on the reply to the letter that is probe, we do not always get very far with the now with the Treasurer. questions we ask. Indeed, by question 2080 on the Another matter I want to deal with is along the 7th November 1 asked for particulars regarding same lines. It relates to the question of ministerial journeys overseas. The answer I Government expenditure on public relations received was that it would take a bit of time to officers within the departments and outside them. obtain this information, and the Premier did not I asked a question today about the contract the think it would warrant the effort. He did say if Government has with Mr W. W. Mitchell. On there was a particular aspect I would like to behalf of the Government he is a regular writer to query, he would be pleased to answer the question the pages of The West Australian. He would be a for me. The Premier has been using such an good supporter of the Government in view of the answer on many occasions lately, not only to me, deal he is receiving from it. but also to other members. Mr Mitchell has never been a friend of the We do not ask questions if we do not want to know something. Often the Minister for Health Labor Party. I remember some material he wrote has said that we ask unnecessary questions; but in 1959 about the elections at that time. Of nevertheless, many of the questions that I ask are course, he received his just reward. questions that were asked by the present I asked a question today, and it was answered Government when it was in Opposition. At that this afternoon. I asked whether the Premier would time, the Government felt it was justified in table the contract, if a contract still existed. The asking those questions; and I feel I am justified in Premier said that a contract did exist, and that it asking them now. had been tabled last year, and therefore he would I did not receive a reply to that question. If we not table it again. are to probe the accounts of a department We knew the contract had been tabled last properly-and we are as entitled to do that as is year. We knew also that the contract then was for the Auditor General- I would expect that we a period of 12 months. We knew that the 12 would receive answers to our questions. months had expired; so I was actually asking the I do not deny the right of Ministers to take Premier about the new contract, if there was one, trips overseas. They do not take them for and whether it had been changed from the pleasure. If they are able to have a few days off previous contract. The Premier referred mue to the for pleasure while they are away, good luck to earlier contract, but he did not give me any them. However, the Parliament is entitled to indication whether it had been renewed under the know who is going away, when, and for what same terms, or whether a different contract had reason, and the cost. Whether we pursue that is been written. another matter. I should imagine that Mr Mitchell would be Another subject about which I am not very pleased with the contract that existed in 1978. It happy with the answers given to mec relates to was a generous and handsome contract. Mr short-term investments. The Treasurer has been Mitchell was receiving the incredibly good hourly on the defensive, saying that I am affecting the rate of $18.75 from the Government. That is money market. Goodness gracious, I am pleased about double the rate an Al-grade journalist to have that power attributed to me. Of cobrse, receives. the Premier is probably regretting some of the Mr Bryce: That More than justifies his initial answers he gave me. fanatical letters. I have not pursued the matter recently because Mr DAVIES: No wonder he is a supporter of I have written to him posing certain questions and the Government, with an income like that. That seeking certain undertakings. What I do will hourly rate is paid on the basis of 64 hours per depend on the result of that letter. month. The contract ran for one year from the I1st What the Treasurer forgets is that although he January, 1978. At 64 hours per month it would may be giving me answers, there are people in the mean 768 hours in a 12-month period, and at money market who are contacting my office and $18.15 per hour it would total $14 400 a year. As 4662 4662[ASSEMBLY]

I say, at that time that was just over double the my staff could have done that on a Saturday rate an Al-grade journalist was receiving. afternoon for half the price. Mr Sodeman: It would cost you that much per Mr MacKinnon: How much do you pay for the hour to have your car serviced or any mechanical advertising for your election campaign? Did you work done to your car. do that in your spare time? Mr Bryce: But the mechanic does not get paid Mr DAVIES: What was that? that. Mr MacKinnon: Will you table the contract for Mr Sodeman: The proprietor does. your election campaign advertising? Mr Bryce: You have got more than one person Mr DAVIES: I will not. If the Liberal Party involved there. were prepared to indicate all its donations and Mr Sodenun: The same with W. W. finance and the sources, we would be happy to do Mitchell-his receptionist, his typist, and that likewise. If the member for Murdoch takes his sort of thing. hand from his mouth I may be able to understand Mr DAVIES: It may cost $18.75 in the Pilbara him better. where the Government has not done much about Mr B. T. Burke: It is his foot. prices; but it does not cost $18.75 in the Mr DAVIES: The taxpayers are not paying for metropolitan area to have a car serviced. our advertising campaign. Mr Sodeman: Doesn't it? Go to oine of the Mr Young: That is another story. larger vehicle outlets. Mr DAVIES: We are paying out of our own Mr DAVIES: I suppose if the member for funds. Pilbara has one of the larger vehicles, he might be able to pay the higher prices. Mr B. T. Burke: Listen to the two accountants; they would not know. Mr Sodeman: Not one of the larger vehicles, but one of the larger vehicle outlets. Mr DAVIES: If the Government members were prepared to table all their party donations Mr DAVIES: If the member for Pilbara. wants to go to one of the larger vehicle outlets and he and expenses, we would be quite happy to do the has not discovered they are ripping him off, he same. We have issued that invitation before. deserves to pay that kind of money. He could go Mr Sodeman: Why does the member for Mt. out to Victoria Park, to any of the reputable Hawthorn charge $60 an hour for his legal garages there, and pay $12 or $14 at the most. services? To return to the subject of Mr W. W. Mitchell, Mr DAVIES: I cannot answer that. he was receiving more than double the rate for an Mr Young: That is $60 a year. AlI journalist. That is an hourly rate, and it is not Mr Sodeman: That is $59.99 too much. taking into consideration annual leave, sick leave, public holidays, or long service leave. If one Mr DAVIES: The fact is, there is listed in the calculates those out as annual leave of 160 hours, Estimates quite a number of Press officers. There and sick leave of two weeks, public holidays 13 are five public relations officers, and five clerks days, and long service leave at one-seventh of 460 for the Leader of the Opposition. I wish I had five hours, one finds that it comes to 413 hours. Then clerks. Answers to questions I received this one takes 42.3 per cent of 413 hours, and one afternoon indicate there are 15 Press officers finds that, making allowances for all of those employed in Government departments; five in the things, he was still receiving more than the Al Premier's Department, and 10 spread amongst journalist was receiving. Indeed, he received other Minister. So they are very well off indeed. I something like $7.94 per hour more than the Al am not complaining because I have one public journalist. relations officer for one Leader of the Opposition; Mr MacKinnon: The journalist has not any perhaps a one for one basis is not too bad. The overheads. only trouble is that he has to work for the rest of the Opposition as well. Mr DAVIES: I have just detailed what the overheads are likely to be-the long service leave, Mr Bryce: They tell us the Premier thinks he is and the like. This was a part-time job, and Mr as good as six on the other side. Mitchell had other jobs with other Government Mr DAVIES: I did read that, and that is departments. If I remember correctly, he was paid absolutely correct-no, that is wrong; he is worth $800 for designing a pamphlet recently in regard a dozen of them. lHe is a bloke for whom I have a to the Perth-Fremantle linc bus service. Any of high regard. [Tuesday, 13th November, 19791 464663

The point I was trying to make-and we have The member gave the impression that been side-tracked a few times-is that we are technology is about to come. Technology is here! having increasing difficulty getting information Mr Bryce: 1 did not say that. from the Government, even though the Treasurer has often said that this is the place where we The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (Mr Watt): should question and probe; this is the place where Order I remind the Deputy Leader of the we find out and where we are entitled to ask Opposition that he has interjected perhaps three times questions. But if members consider the questions whilst standing up out of his seat, asked on the short-term money market, Ministers' Sir CHARLES COURT: I remind the visits overseas, and now about Mr W. W. honourable member that this question of Mitchell's contract, there seems to be more than a technology is a far-ranging thing. If he has the slight coyness on the part of Ministers to answer impression the Government has entrusted all our questions. We have been told that our things to do with technology to the Minister for questions are a little time-consuming; in fact, Labour and Industry, he has completely considerably time-consuming and, therefore, misunderstood the situation and has completely Ministers often decline to answer them. This gives misinterpreted any information he has been given. the lie to the Premier's remarks 'that we will get It so happens that on matters which affect the free and frank answers to everything that comes particular portfolio of Labour and Industry it is before the Chamber. only natural that that Minister must have his I trust the Treasurer will check to see whether responsibilities which must be respected. There is a new contract has been signed. The last one was no suggestion it does not touch education. There signed by Sir Charles Court and witnessed by R. is no suggestion it does not touch every portfolio. D. Davies-I assume that is Bob Davies. It is also For instance, the Minister for Health is involved signed by W. W. Mitchell and witnessed by a Mr with some of the most advanced technology there Flynn. The contract was for 12 months from the is. I would not like to see the day when we try to 1st January. 1978, with provision for it to be set up a portfolio for technology and say, "That is cancelled on three months' notice by either side. that; we have fixed that." In answer to a question this afternoon, I was told Mr Bryce: Did I suggest that? the contract had been tabled last year; but as can Sir CHARLES COURT: The member gave be gathered, there should have been a new the impression we should have a Minister for contract drawn up since then. technology who would be involved in all these Another quaint answer often given to questions questions of education, social implications- asked by members who have not been aware that a similar question has already been asked some Mr Bryce: You cannot accept a constructive suggestion, no matter where it comes from. If it is months prior is that they should refer back to not your bright idea, you cannot accept it. Be question No. X of 1978. It seems strange there honest and admit I said it was a starfling point; it should be such a reluctance on the part of the Government to repeat an answer. Perhaps it is was one thing that ought to be done. Don't prostitute the suggestion. afraid that in repeating an answer it might make a mistake, and this is something it does not wish Sir CHARLES COURT: Why does the to risk, It would be easy for Ministers to give an Deputy Leader of the Opposition get so upset exact answer rather than have us search back for about this? It is about the only thing he has to an answer given some time ago. If this is the way talk about-his film and guided lectures. It seems the Government wants it, it gives the lie to the to be the only thing he has to do at the moment. I Premier's statement that he is anxious to make want to make some observations, because the information- freely available. Government is not without ideas and knowledge in respect of technology. SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands- Treasurer) [1.37 a.m]: I shall reply firstly to the Mr Bryce: You are a really big person; you can comments made by the Deputy Leader of the really accept a concrete suggestion. Opposition. I know he has become very wrapped Sir CHARLES COURT: I could have up in the question of technology. I point out to remained silent and let the Deputy Leader of the him that appointing a Minister for technology in Opposition's remarks go over our heads;, but I am itself will not solve the problem, for the very showing the courtesy of responding to his reasons he gave. This is a very diversified area. It remarks. Any Government I lead would insist that touches every portfolio; it touches practically all Ministers take an interest in the advance of everything we do in life. technology. It is something forever with us in 4664 4664[ASSEMBLY) varying forms. Sometimes it moves (aster than at department was not happy and was pressing for other times. local purchasing officers, or words to that effect. In the last 20 years there has been a My understanding of the situation is that the tremendous advance, and for a number of good reverse applies and as a result of the reasons. If Australia ignores this and stands in representations made to the Government, initially the way of technology's advance, it will be by the member for Albany, this matter was steamrolled and not keep up with the rest of the examined. Members who understand the world. procedures of Executive Council will know that, At one stage of his remarks the Deputy J...ader before papers go to the council, invariably a of the Opposition acknowledged there were many number of items dealing with purchasing, advances in technology which would bring great particularly contract items which are not within social advantages and get rid of a lot of the the authorised level of the people in Government drudgery in the work force. Then, of course, he Stores themselves, have to be dealt with., The went on and poured a bucket of water over it. officers concerned know these matters are being sent back for further information all the time to Mr Bryce: I did not pour a bucket over it. see how we can break down some of these Aren't you interested in people? contracts and ensure a greater local component. Sir CHARLES COURT: It is like the people who say, "He is a nice fellow but. .... The In fact, quite apart from Government Stores, moment they say, "but" one knows they are going there is the matter of tendering so far as the to denigrate him completely. Public Works Department is concerned. We are breaking down these matters all the We are aware of the dangers of technology if it time-without abandoning the tender system and is treated as a technological matter only; but an endeavour to when the human factor is involved, technology losing the benefits of it-in ensure local contractors and the like have a can be a great force for good if the balance between the two is appreciated. chance to win some of these contracts and, on occasions, this occurs far beyond the official We are not getting involved in this subject in an percentage of preference. emotive way or on the basis of scare tactics; but we believe witbout modem technology Australia I make no apology for the fact that we have does not have a chance to survive economically. given much higher percentages of preference in many cases to ensure that work goes to particular Mr Bryce: So do we. places. Sir CHARLES COURT: I am glad the Deptuy Leader of the Opposition said that, because some One case of which the honourable member will of his utterances in the past, and those of other be aware concerns the Leonora Hospital which members of the Labor Party, have led me to gain was intended to be built on a prefabricated basis the impression that members opposite want to and which went to Geraldton only because we turn back the clock. were able to treat it as a special case and give a greater preference to that particular contract than Mr Bryce: Why don't you be honest? Why we would have done normally under the standard don't you open your mind. Take off your blinkers! procedure. Mr Tonkin: Second childhood-that is his The Leader of the Opposition referred to a trouble! number of matters- Sir CHARLES COURT: I want to deal with Mr Davies: Three matters. the comments made by the member for Geraldton. The matter of the dcentralisation of Sir CHARLES COURT: -regarding Government Stores is exercising the mind of the Ministers' overseas visits. We gave a great deal of Government. The matter was raised initially some information to him, or to one of his colleagues, at time ago by the member for Albany. He brought one time. However, if the Leader of the forward some practical examples of experiences in Opposition feels there have been excesses in this his own electorate where he believed there could regard it is fair enough for him to ask questions be some advantage riot only to the local and obtain the information he requires. community, but also to the Government Stores, I believe we have answered all the questions we and therefore to the Government, if it were have been asked on the short-term money market. decentralised. The Government has not been evasive or defensive As a result, a study is being undertaken in the in relation to this matter. The short-term money hope that we will find a way to achieve some market is a delicate machine and the Government degree of decentralisation. I was rather intrigued funds involved in it arc operated by the Treasury that the member for Geraldtan said the Department. it is carried out on a delegated basis. (Tuesday, 13th November, 1979] 466546

However, the Leader of the Opposition, as a Sir CHARLES COURT: The variation results result of advice he is receiving, gives the from the fact that during part of 1978-79 there impression that risks have been taken in this were four public relations officers, because a regard and actions have been taken which do not vacancy was not filled. This often happens. An conform with the legislation. establishment is fixed and a certain number of If the Leader of the Opposition believes that, it officers may be recruited. If the head of the is his duty to give the reasons for that belief, department is performing his job according to because this Matter is one in which day-to-day Government direction, he will endeavour to keep operations have to be carried out by Treasury the number of staff below the establishment level. officers. They feel very sensitive about the fact The figure for this year allows for the total that an inference exists that they are not number of staff at the approved establishment conforming with the law. They realise that, in level. My understanding is that, as at the 30th their previous operations under myself and my November, there will be four public relations predecessor, actions had to be taken by, them officers and I do not believe there is an intention without daily contact with myself or my to increase that number. predecessor. Item No. 5: Royal and other Commissions of As far as the Government contract with W. W. Inquiry, 5100 000-- Mitchell is concerned, if a contract has expired it Mr BERTRAM: I should like particulars in is usually no longer effective; but normally when relation to the figure of $227 903 which was the dealing with contracts of this nature if they are. expenditure for this item in 1978-79. Could the not terminated by the individuals concerned, they Treasurer give particulars such as counsel fees, carry on, on the basis of the contract in its judges' fees, and so on? original form. However. I shall check the matter for the Leader of the Opposition. Sir CHARLES COURT: If the member would like information on those particular matters, I Reference was made also to the matter of could let him have it. I could not give it to him off access to information. I believe the Leader of the the cuff in specific detail; but I would be only too Opposition will back me up in making out a case pleased to supply it to him. that this Government answers questions promptly and, in all cases where it is practical, proper Item Na 9: Entertaining Distiguished answers are given. To my knowledge no Visitors, $162 000- Parliament in Australia has greater access to Mr DAVIES: There was an allocation of information. $99 400 and $73 297 was spent last financial year. Mr Davies: You are kidding. The allocation for this year is $162 000 and five Sir CHARLES COURT: To the best of my months of the financial year have already passed. knowledge there is no Parliament in Australia I do not know what comprises a distinguished where members have as much access to visitor. I can remember one who spoke here some information as they have in this Parliament. time ago. I understand the Government brought When I talk to members of other Parliaments, this fellow from Japan and whilst it may have they are amazed at the amount of information been interesting to read his paper, he was most available to members and the opportunity given to difficult to follow as a public speaker because of private members to express their views in this his broken English. No doubt my Japanese would House. be far worse, but the fact remains that there are many distinguished visitors being brought Mr Davies: When I talk to them I get exactly here. I am not quite certain what a distinguished visitor the opposite impression. is and I wonder why the allocation for this year is Voe: Premier's Department, 5184100m- more than double the actual expenditure for the Item No. 1: Salaries, Wages and Allowances, past year. 5906 700- Sir CHARLES COURT: When we speak of Mr BERTRAM: In 1978-79 there were five distinguished visitors it is a broad tern as most public relations officers and the expenditure was people would appreciate. We have diplomats $71 806. The estimated figure for 1979-80 is visiting, we have had the President of West $106 500, which is a substantial increase. I would Germany and people like Prince Bertie and like an explanation of that 25 per cent to 30 per Princess Lillian who came with a trade mission cent increase, when it appears that there will be from Sweden. The Governor General is another the same number of public relations officers this and one could go on and on with the types of year as there were last year. people. I believe that regardless of what type of 4666 4666[ASSEMBLY]

Government there is, it has a responsibility to without any extravagance. This Government does entertain these Visitors. not spend money On Visitors like other State Of course during the current financial year we Governments do. have had more visitors than we would normally Vote put and passed. have and we still have more people to visit. I am Vote: Executive Council, $10-put and passed. trying to check what the Leader of the Opposition wishes to know. Does he find the figure excessive? Vote: London Agency, $909 000- Mr Davies: I do. Actually we spent $13 000 Item No. 1: Salaries, Wages and Allowances, and that was for the whole of the financial year $525 000- including six months of our 150th year. It covered Mr DAVIES: When we discussed the London half this calendar year and half the last calender Agency on a previous occasion the Premier drew year. This financial year we will be spending more attention to the work being done in Europe and it than double that. was suggested that we might open a European Sir CHARLES COURT: I can only say to the office. I do not know whether there is any Leader of the Opposition that we have had a provision in this allocation under this item, or any wonderful year and we are still having a other item, (or the salaries and for the opening of wonderful year which is very important to this a European office. Of course the position in the State. I would not like to feel that this Parliament Middle East is not known, but we have had some and particularly the Leader of the Opposition, people moving round in the field and it was who knows the type of people coming here, would suggested there was evidence of trade there. If we be sufficiently mean to want to question this are providing an agency in the Middle East then I amount. He referred to a gentleman from Japan. would not suggest Iran. It would be the last This gentleman has great seniority and has a country on the list. tremendous influence in Japan and has done a lot What is the position in regard to Western for the relationship between Australia and Japan. Australia's relationship with Europe and what is Whilst it was thought that his lecture was hard to the position in regard to the Middle East? follow, he made a great contribution in his private Mr H-. D. EVANS: Supplementary to the consultations with people. He was brought here at Leader of the Opposition's query I wish to say the request of industry and commerce to confer that I had intended to raise this matter also and with them on matters of trade because of his great to ask what further endleavours had been made in international trading experience. The costs for the South-East Asia area. If some endeavours entertaining this gentleman were more than have been made, what are the areas, and more justified because he worked very hard with the specifically what are the agricultural possibilities local people to pass on his outstanding knowledge in these areas, and what products would be on world trade. If we are not to entertain people involved? like that let us say so. However, in my understanding these are the people to come here Sir CHARLES COURT: In answer to the because we learn a lot from them and in turn they Leader of the Opposition, so far as the increased have a tremendous amount of influence in their salaries are concerned the details are as one would own country with development' and particularly expect because there is an inescapable salary and the attraction of capital. I would not like to have wage cost arising from flow-on from wage it said that this State is being mean. increases. There is a high degree of inflation in Britain so we had to take regard of this. We had Mr Davies: It is not being mean, it is a matter to take into consideration the increases of salaries of being reasonable when one compares the and wages, make provision to cover salary figures. Even though we have, had only six months adjustments, and for 1979-80 we had to make a of the 150th year there is still a great dispari.ty. provision for vacant positions being filled and for Sir CHARLES COURT: There are many allowances and additional assistance. The total things still to come up this year and some will was $59 000 and this has been subject to scrutiny, carry on into the new year. not only in the normal way, but it so happened Mr Davies: Many of these events occurred last that the Under Secretary of the Premier's year. Department was in London personally and was Sir CHARLES COURT: If the Leader of the able to follow this through. Opposition feels that we are being extravagant, As far as Europe is concerned, the Continent then that is his right. As far as I am concerned I can be dealt with through London because with think the Government's actions are correct the financial circumstances it is much cheaper to because they are being done in a sensible way operate across the channel. Communication is [Tuesday, 13th November, 19791 466766 comparatively easy. The Agent General has had a transfers at all, whereas in other years there are heavy year in London because of the 150th complete changeovers. Anniversary celebrations and has not been able to In this case the main reason is the transfer to maintain his contact with Europe to the extent he Western Australia of a migration officer, and his would like. However, other members of the staff replacement, and familiarisation visits by two are becoming better trained in this work and will London Agency officers. As is known, make an increased contribution in the future. substantially we use local staff in the London It is not intended to work the Middle East from office in the interests of economy. They provide London as was suggested by somebody last year. their own accommodation, and it is a cheaper It is an entirely different atmosphere from Europe process than that of transferring people and it would be expecting too much of the unnecessarily from one country to another. comparatively small staff we have in London. It has been considered desirable to arrange We are dealing with the Middle East from this familiarisation visits. People who have visited end and we have a very strong group of officers Australia House in London realise that the iisvolved. To date it has been decided not to open officers there, who are local people, have no local an office because of the difficulty of determining contact with Australia. For that reason we have the best position for the office. It is felt we can set aside some money for that particular purpose. better cover the work with a greater degree of flexibility by using people of known competence The remainder of the expenditure is to provide and experience. for the general increase in costs, and also to strengthen the UK currency. That did not have to On top of that, there are regular visits from a be provided for last year. The sum total of number of people. We are involved in a number of expenditure will be $16 400, and that explains the projects in the Middle East and the people difference between the figure for this year and the working in those projects are given briefs to figure for last year. follow through other contacts as well as a reporting on the projects themselves. Vote put and passed. Representatives from the Lamb Marketing Board Vote: Tokyo Agency, S222 990- are regular Visitors, and they have had great Item No. 1: Salaries, Wages and Allowances, success in that area. 103 000- Those are some of the things being done. A Mr H. D. EVANS: Some elaboration is recent contact is related to the Bunbury foods required on the Premier's statement to the project. We will step up even further the contacts previous division. The questions arise: in which we have in the Middle East. particular areas has the Minister specifically been With regard to the point raised by the member involved; with what particular products; in what for Warren, concerning South-East Asia, the particular centres; and to what degree? Minister for Industrial Development in particular Sir CHARLES COURT: First of all, when I is responsible for this area. It is intended also to was talking about the Tokyo Office I was not step up our work in Asian countries because it talking about South-East Asia. Mr John O'Brien appears their economy is growing faster than covers not only Japan, but also South Korea and predicted, and they are showing very distinct Taiwan. At the moment we have not sent him on tendencies, as well as commitments, to work any missions to China because it is best he together. confines himself to Japan, with occasional visits Our intention is to treat those countries as a by arrangement with the Minister for Industrial bloc. There will be a much greater contact, not Development to South Korea and Taiwan. Those only from local businessmen and others who two countries are customers of this State and they constantly visit the area and keep in close contact have quickly growi ng economies. with the Government, but also by'Government- So far as the South-East Asian countries are sponsored missions in the new year. concerned,!I cannot be precise as to exactly where Itenm No. 9: Exchange of Officers, $19 000- the Minister and his officers have been and what Mr BERTRAM: The figure of $19000 is products they actually have pursued. I do know roughly eight times the amount actually spent last that the Minister for Agriculture is also interested year. I seek some information. and an officer of his department has been, or is Sir CHARLES COURT: The reason is not about to go, into that area. hard to find. We have officers working from place If the honourable member wants to be more to place. For instance, in some years there are no specific with regard to the products and the places 4668 4668ASSEMBLY] visited, if he lets me know exactly what he wants 1 hold a meeting at the Government Printing Office will provide the information. had been overridden by a decision of the Minister Vote put and passed. for Labour and Industry. The meeting was to Vote: Public Service Board, 52 800 000-put discuss the position of the Industrial Arbitration and passed. Act. Vote: Treasury, 53 262 000- The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mr Watt): I ask the Leader of the Opposition to relate his remarks Item No. 2: Administration Expenses, to the item. $1 0)9000- Mr DAVIES: I am actually talking about the Mr BERTRAM: The expenditure against this Government Printer. He receives a salary each item last year was $695 393, and the expected year. expenditure this year exceeds $1 million. That is a steep increase and I inquire the reason. The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is a long bow. Mr DAVIES- Sir CHARLES COURT: The increased I am talking about the way he provision is due mainly to progressive ,gets the work out and about his appreciation of implementation of a centralised computer industrial relations. accounting system and the details are-- The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 1 understand what you are saying. My ruling is that matters Computer centre processing and programming such as the one you are now discussing should be charges, up $210 000; purchase debated of software, down $25 000; consultancy fees, in the general debate under the part. down $110 000; computer equipment rental, When we come to discussing individual items we up $15 000; and other miscellaneous, up are discussing expenditure. $52000. Mr DAVIES: Perhaps I could move that the That is a net increase of S5142 000. expenditure be decreased by 510 because the Government Printer's salary should be cut down The second item is the increase due to the in view of the fact that he is overridden by the Grants Commission. We are having not only to Minister for Labour and Industry. Would that be mount our case but also to give evidence before a satisfactory way to overcome the difficulty? the Grants Commission in view of the review which is taking place between the States. That is The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Proceed with $50 000. The PWD investigation-we are your speech and I will make those judgments as bringing in some consultants to look at the whole necessary. of the accounting and management control Mr DAVIES: I want to draw attention to the system-is $50000. Postage is 315 000, and the pettiness of the Government, whereby one increased cost of all other items is expected to be man-the Government Printer $66 607. The sum total is 3323 607. himself-understands the position and grants Vote put and passed. permission for a meeting to be held in the canteen, and several days later the Minister for Votes: Treasury Computing Centre, 51995 000; Labour and Industry overrides him and says no Superannuation Board, 5605 000; Government meetings are to be held. The Minister said, Stores, $2 335 000-put and passed. "There is, however, nothing to prevent unions vote Government Printing Office, holding such meetings in their own time and at $12168000- any other venue of their own choice." That is Item No. 1: Salaries, Wages and Allowances, what the Minister is quoted as saying. SS 234 000- I would have thought the Minister bad enough Mr DAVIES: Some time ago I was critical of sense to appreciate that the meeting was being the work coming to Parliament House from the held in the lunch hour and that lunch hours are Government Printing Office but I am pleased to generally accepted as being in the time of the say those complaints seem to have been remedied, ,employee, not in the time of the employer. One and I thank the Clerks here and the Government would have thought he would be sensitive enough Printing Office for the attention they gave to the on this issue to understand the Government matter. Printer wanted the employees to hear what was Mr Bill Brown, the Government Printer, seems going on, but obviously the Government did not to have a far better appreciation of industrial want its employees to know what ' as going on. relations than does the Government. I was That is taking pettiness to the nth degree. saddened indeed to read in tonight's paper that Surely the Government is not so ashamed of its permission granted by the Government Printer to legislation that it will not let the story be told. [Tuesday, 13th November, 19791 466946

There is nothing to prevent the Minister for Mr Skidnmore: Like what, for instance? Labour and Industry himself or one of his staff from the Department of Labour and Sir CHARLES COURT: I refer to what is industry-a4nd 1 do not want to comment on what known as the Strickland ruling which was given I think of some of the staff in the many years ago by Harry Strickland, a Minister department-going down and addressing a meeting. I would have thought the Minister would for Railways, in regard to meetings at the consider a bit of whipped-up enthusiasm would do Midland railway workshops. Thai ruling has been the Government's cause some good, instead of accepted with one or two exceptions. One or two which he goes to the extreme of issuing an edict unions buck about it, but most other unions that no meetings are to be held on Government accept it, I suggest the Minister was acting property during working hours, despite the fact responsibly. The TLC could ar-range a meeting that the meeting was not to be held during elsewhere to explain its views on the Bill and I do working hours. I register a protest and say once not think we should exacerbate the situation any again it is an example of the Government's further. insensitivity in regard to industrial relations. Vote put and passed. Sir CHARLES COURT: 1 will respond briefly-although it is not pertinent to the Votes: Audit, SI 440 000; Taxation, $3 332 000; item-for the sake of rounding it off. The Valuer General, $2751 000-put and passed. Minister in giving that ruling was acting sensibly and responsibly. I remind members opposite of a Progress certain ruling given by a Labor Government on Progress reported and leave given to sit again, this particular issue. If we are not careful we will create precedents and have an intolerable on motion by Sir Charles Court (Treasurer). situation. House adjournedat 2.19 a.m. (Wednesday) 4670 4670[ASSEMBLY)

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE PARLIAMENTARY PRIVILEGES ACT Amendment ANIMALS 2131. Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister representing the Attorney General: Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act (1) Is it the Attorney General's intention to introduce a Dill to amend the 2124. Mr SKIDMORE, to the Chief Secretary: Parliamentary Privileges Act during this Would he detail the names and Parliament? addresses of persons appointed as special (2) If "No", why? constables under the Prevention of Mr O'NEIL replied: Cruelty to Animals Act, and* the dates of No. such appointments, who were sponsored (1) (2) Although the Attorney General made for those appointments by- certain recommendations following a request by the Legislative Assembly, no (a) the Animal Protection Society; final decision has yet been taken as to (b) the Royal Society for Prevention of what amendments, if any, should be Cruelty to Animals? introduced. It must be appreciated that any amendments will also affect the Mr O'NEIL replied: Legislative Council. Names and addresses of persons The matter will be reviewed again at the appointed as special constables under conclusion of the present session of the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Parliament. Act and the dates of such appointments are as follows-

(a) Sponsored by the Animal Protection Society- EDUCATION

Nam Addr.s Date Country High School Hostels: Aid AppInte Mr E. H. McHugh 54 William Rd. Nedlands .3.79 2146. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for Mr M. P. Faster Lot 4Miles Rd..anVie. 12.4.79 Mrs V. IC.Payne 48 RailwrayPd.. Bassunddan 3.5.79 Education: M.s P. West Old NorthamRd. Chidlow 14.5.79 miss E. West Old Northam Rd. Chidlow 21.5.79 (1) What subsidies are provided by the Miss J. Sha. 97 Grantham, St. Floret Park 21.8.79 State Government to assist with the running of the country high school hostels? (b) Sponsored by the Royal Society for (2) What was the total amount of aid made the Prevention of Cruelty to available by the State Government for Animals:- the running of these hostels during the 1978-79 financial year? Nam Address Dale Appointed Mr P. V. JONES replied: R. L. Aster 32Fdgewater Rd. Safety Bay 11.7.79 J. Burrows 66 Culemap Rd. North 27.11.75 (1) Hostels are paid a subsidy of $3 to $6 Ytndenap per student per week depending on the JI R. Calvesl 25 Victoria Ave, Clareemot 9.4.74 W.'V. Carter 73 Woodrow Ave. Yokin. 22.3.79 location of the hostel. KC.J. Claiwvorthy 28 ReserveDye. Mandurab 22.7.75 L W. Dale 41 Rannoch, Circle. Hamrsley 12.3.76 B. F. Henderson 63 Lcake St. Bayswater 2.11.79 (2) Subsidy 179 406 EtJ.c. Higgins 25 Lion St. Albany 9.9.74 R.- A. Hill 4 Eliss Court, Crenwo 22.9.76 Equipment 68 898 K. Hurnphrys 4 Jayes, Road, BorJp Brook 20. 7.77 Servicing D. W. Kerslake 35 Moncriefi Rd. Ellison Park 2.2.79 of loans 522 033 B. P. Landers IRSCollins St, Kalgoorlie 18.5.79 Maintenance of buildings 227 663 M. L Lcois RMB 219. Kojonsup 12.10.78 B. N. Locker Lot 20 Trigwell Rd. Boyamip 5.1.79 Administration 13825 S. Rt.Lynch Flat 40 Gardiner St. Como 22.3.79 F. J. Maitland-Scitb 35 CalRisen Way. Koondoola 20.1.78 G. W. Reid a Ochiltre Way. Icardinys 11.7.79 $1011 825 M. w. Scally 34 Meudowbrook Dye.Lynomd 20.8.74 (Tuesday, 13th November, 19791 474671

EDUCATION EDUCATION: SCHOOLS AND HIGH Living-away-from-home AIlowanc SCHOOLS 2147. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for Air-conditioning Education: 2150. Mr GRILL, to the Minister for What was the total cost to the State Education: Government to provide the $150 per (I) What is the Government's policy in annum living-away-from-home respect of the air-conditioning of State allowance to eligible students during the primary and high schools throughout the financial year 1978-79? State? Mr P. V. JONES replied: (2) How does ' that policy apply to the $234394. eastern goldfields and Yilgarn regions? (3) Are there any State schools in the EDUCATION eastern goidfields and Vilgarn areas that Air Fares are air conditioned? 2148. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for (4) Have any metropolitan State schools Transport: been air-conditioned and, if so, which ones? What was the total cost to the State Mr P. V. JONES replied: Government of providing the three free air Cares to eligible students during the (1) and (2) The policy for providing air- 1978-79 financial year? cooling, both evaporative and refrigerated Mr RUSHTON systems, in schools, is replied: framed in terms of data provided by the The total cost to the State Government Bureau of Meteorology. Geographical of providing the three free air fares to zones of high and low priority have been eligible students during the 1978-79 delineated and are set out in the Financial year amounted to $290 731. Education Circular, No, 1I, December, 1974, Page 350. EDUCATION: HIGH SCHOOL At present, priority is given to schools Langford located in the north, north-west and 2149. Mr PEARCE, to the Minister for goldfields areas. Education: (3) Yes. (1) Is consideration being given to making (4) Perth Modern School-part only- the proposed Langford High School a because a section has had to be sealed school for upper secondary students off to exclude traffic noise. only? (2) (a) If so, what stage has this consideration reached: and RAILWAYS AND BUSES (b) when is a final decision expected? Fremantie-Perth: Patronage (3) Is consideration being given to creating high schools for upper secondary 2151. Mr MclVER, to the Minister for students only in any other areas? Transport: (4) If so, which areas are being considered? (1) Can he now advise the average level of Mr P. V. JONES replied: patronage in fuimerical terms for train services during- (I) Several alternatives to secondary education are being considered as long (a) non-peak periods; term planning projects. The (b) peak periods, LangfordftLynwood area is being on the Perth-Fremantle route prior to considered in this context. the closure of the line? (2) (a) and (b) No decision has been (2) Can he also now advise the patronage reached and the opinion of parents level of linc buses in numerical terms will be fully considered before a during- final decision. (a) non-peak periods; (3) Not at this stage. (b) peak periods, (4) Not applicable. since the linc service began? 4672 4672[ASSEMBLY]

(3) On which other bus routes for the Perth- None of the other organisations listed by Fremantle corridor has there been an the honourable member, or individuals, increase in loading in numerical terms has represented this matter to me. since the closure of the railway line? (2) 1 have the Utmost respect for the (4) On which other services has there been a opinions of the organisations concerned decrease in loading in numerical terms? and if any further approach is received, Mr RUSHTON replied: it will be given every consideration. (1) This information was provided in my answer to question 1614. (2) to (4) Information to provide valid ENERGY trends of changes in passenger loadings Pensioners' Rebate on routes in the Perth/Fremantle corridor is currently being evaluated and 2153. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Fuel and will be available to me shortly. Energy: (1) What is the maximum and minimum monetary rebate available on the fixed RAILWAYS: FREMANTLE-PERTH charge for pensioners? Handicapped Persons (2) What are the maximum and minimum 2152. Mr McIVER, to the Minister for number of units which can be used in order to qualify for the rebate? Transport: (3) How many pensioners have received a (1) Referring to question 1046 of 1979 rebate in the past 12 months? concerning handicapped users of the Perth-Fremantle railway line, in view of (4) What is the average consumption of his stated willingness to give full units for domestic consumers per consideration to problems arising (or the quarter and per annum? handicapped who use buses, if any Mr MENSAROS replied: anxiety from handicapped peoples organisations is brought to his attention, (1) The maximum monetary rebate is he aware that handicapped individuals available on the fixed charge for and representatives of handicapped pensioners is $3.08 and the minimum organisations have expressed concern $0.1I5. The rebate is dependent on the over the loss of the railway? level of consumption of electricity (2) Will he approach handicapped and during the account period. organisations in close proximity to the (2) The maximum number of units which line to establish what' assistance the can be used in order to qualify for the Government can give in response to the pensioner rebate is 629 and the problem created by its decision to close minimum is nil. the line? (3) This figure is not readily available, Mr RUSHTON replied: however there are 22 898 pensioners. (1) Of the organisations listed in your who, subject to the level of electricity question 1046, 1 have received consumption are eligible for the rebate. representation from one--Royal Perth (4) The average consumption of electricity Hospital, Department of Social units for domestic consumers per Work-which made reference to the quarter is 1 100 approximately and per transport needs of people attending year 4 400 approximately. Royal Perth Rehabilitation Hospital, Shenton Park. Recently I have received a request from FIRES ACCESS that the needs of handicapped people be taken into account when the Insurance Levy: Stamp Duty future of the Perth/Fremantle railway is 2154. Mr DAVIES, to the Treasurer: decided. This will be in approximately three (1) Further to questions 1762 and 2184 of years' time, and their representation will 1978 and question 2060 of 1979, be taken into account. concerning stamp duty on fire brigade [Tuesday, 13th November, 19791 467347

levies, as the second schedule to the Act PUBLIC RELATIONS CONSULTANTS defines the gross premium as including Engagement by Government any commission or discount paid in respect of the premium, is the fire 2156. Mr DAVIES, to the Premier: brigade levy considered as a commission (1) Since December 1978, have any private or discount for the purposes of the Act? public relations consultants been (2) If "No", to (1), why is the levy included engaged by the Government for any in the gross premium for the purposes of purpose? stamp duty? (3) As the new Stamp Act to come into (2) If "Yes",- operation does not provide for a gross (a) who; premium, will the fire levy be eligible for (b) for what purpose; stamp duty when the Act begins to (c) for what period of time; operitc? (d) how much was paid/is being paid for the services? Sir CHARLES COURT replied: (1) and (2) No. Sir CHARLES COURT replied: As previously stated, the premium is (1) and (2) See answer to question 2155. determined by each insurance company. Presumably, the premium charged is to recoup all outgoings including the proportion of the fire brigade levy. (3) See section 92 of the amended Act. MINISTERS OF THE CROWN Press Secretaries 2157. Mr DAVIES, to the Premier: (1) H-ow many ministerial Press secretaries are employed by the Government? GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (2) To whom are they assigned? In formation, Publicity, Public Relations (3) Are there any. vacancies for ministerial Ofrieers, and Press Secretaries Press secretaries at present and, if so, when is it proposed to fill the vacancies? 2155. Mr DAVIES, to the Premier: (1) Which Government departments employ Sir CHARLES COURT replied: Press secretaries, information officers, (1) 16. This will reduce to 15 as from the publicity off icers, public relations 30th November,' officers or similar officers? (2) Premier's Depantnent-4 (2) How many such officers are employed in each department? Deputy Premier-I (3) What salaries are paid to each of these Minister for Agriculture-I officers and to what awards or other Minister for Works-I wage and salary determinations are the Minister for Labour and industry-l salaries related? Attorney General and Minister for (4) If the salaries paid are not related to Housing-I (on a share basis) awards or other wage and salary Minister for Education-! determinations, how are they arrived at? Minister for Transport-I (5) Are any further such appointments at Minister for Industrial Developnent-l present contemplated in 1979-80? Minister for Lands--I Minister for Local Government-! Sir CHARLES COURT replied: Minister for Health-I. (1) to (5) The answer to this question and (3) One Press secretary has submitted his questions 2156 and 2166 will take resignation and this will be effective as considerable research and as soon as the from the 30th November. A Press information has been collated 1 shall secretary has been appointed to fill that advise the member in writing. vacancy. (147) 4674 4674(ASSEMBLY]

"WESTERN AUSTRALIAN NEWSLETTER" Ministerial Press statements also provide Bias an indication of progress being made in the State and could provide an incentive, 2158. Mr DAVIES, to the Premier: in some cases, to encourage further (1) Does the publication Western overseas investment. Australian Newsletter which is (6) Since first 1978 issue there have been distributed in the United Kingdom, references to statements by 25 State purport to be an accurate brief of events Opposition members and 18 Federal occurring in Western Australia? Opposition members. (2) Who produces it? (7) Because at the time industrial relations (3) How was a big issue in the UK and, for that many copies are produced? reason, Mr Atkinson's letter was (4) How often is it produced? particularly topical. (5) Why does it consist largely of Press The Leader of the Opposition appears to releases by Government Ministers? be under the impression that the (6) How many issues in the past two years newsletter is a political publication. contain references to statements by the members of the Opposition? Mr Davies: I did not have that impression. (7) Why did the 3rd August, 1979 edition Sir CHARLES COURT: To continue- No. 900 of the newsletter reproduce a letter published in The West Australian It is never intended that it should be of the 12th July by the Executive and, in fact, some issues reflecting Director of the Confederation of current news topics have a larger non- Industry in response to comments by the political content. For example, the latest Secretary of the Trades and Labor edition of the Western Australian Council, without reproducing any part Newsletter contains nine items of a of Mr Cook's comments? political nature, compared with a total of 45 articles covered in the issue. It will Sir CHARLES COURT replied: be seen that it is far from being a (I) Yes, so far as is reflected in the pages of political news sheet. The West Australian newspaper or the One has to appreciate, also, that two ABC overseas broadcasts, the main weeks' news has to be reduced to a 10 or sources of news for those responsible for preparing the publication. 12-page newsletter, with obvious drawbacks regarding full coverage of (2) PRO at Western Australia House. events. (3) 1 200 on current circulation, though this varies according to demand. From the foregoing it should be (4) The newsletter has been produced apparent to the Leader of the fortnightly since July, 1944, when it was Opposition that the policy for news introduced to provide news during coverage in this publication has not World War 11 for Western Australian changed substantially over the years. I servicemen in the UK and Europe. understand it is regarded favourably by The circulation has since been extended, its recipients and I have been advised beyond Western Australian visitors, to that it is considered to be equal to, if not British businessmen having interests in better than other State newsletters. Western Australia and to relatives of people living in the State.. No copies are distributed without GOVERNMENT'S Western Australia House first having ACHIEVEMENTS received a request for the recipient to be Document put on the mailing list. 2159. Mr DAVIES, to the Premier: (5) It does not "consist largely" of ministerial Press statements and these (I) Has the Government yet prepared a are included only when they touch on document outlining its achievements subjects of importance, as appears whilst in office? apparent from local media coverage, or (2) If so, will he table it? having an interest to Western Australian (3) If it is not ready, when will it be people overseas. completed? [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979]167 4675

(4) What is the estimated cost of the Thirdly, because of industrial disputes, document? 31 trains scheduled to leave the Eastern (5) Who is preparing it? States in the first three-quarters of this year have had to be cancelled. Sir CHARLES COURT replied: Regardless of any of the other factors, (1) Preparation is at an advanced stage. had these trains operated, the total (2) See answer to (1). 1 shall be pleased to number of visitors to the State at the make a copy available to the Leader of end of September would have been the the Opposition when the document is highest of any year. printed. Notwithstanding all the above, the (3) Probably in the second week of member will have noted that the figures December. for the June and September quarters are higher than the previous corresponding (4) The work is being carried out at a quarters to which he refers. This can be tendered price of about $60OW, but that directly attributed to the promotional figure will be exceeded due to extra activities of the Department of Tourism work expected to be involved. and the 150th celebrations, without Nevertheless, the final cost is not likely which the State's visitor figures would to exceed the 19 311 spent by the have been much less than what they will Tonkin Government-this figure would prove to be-that is, a record. be well in excess of $15 000 on today's costs-fo4r its edition of "Progress 197 1- 74." (5) As in the past, the material was collated TOURISM in the first instance by the departments Western Australians concerned and, after further input and scrutiny by Ministers, it was finally 2161. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister representing compiled by one of the Press secretaries the Minister for Tourism: in the Premier's Department. IHow many Western Australians have travelled- (a) interstate; TOURISM (b) overseas, Interstate and Overseas Visitors for the first three quarters of 1978 and the first three quarters of the previous 2 160. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister representing two years? the Minister for Tourism: Mr O'CONNOR replied: Further to question 2083 of 1979 (a) Not known. concerning interstate and overseas (b) 1979-Not available. visitors to Western Australia, 1978--68 847. what 1977--64 055. reasons can be given for the reduction in interstate visitors in, Western Australia for 1979 so far when compared with the same period in 1977, in view of the EXPLOSIVES DEPOT interstate publicity for the 150th State Forest and Woodm~an Point Anniversary in Western Australia? 2162. Mr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister Mr O'CONNOR replied: representing the Minister for Forests: Firstly, the introduction of low cost (1) What is the total area of the section of international air fares early this year has State forest in which it is proposed to adversely affected the number of locate the explosives facility previously interstate visitors travelling to this State. situated at Woodm~an Point? This is particularly reflected in the (2) What is the area of the Woodman Point quarter ending March. explosive reserve which it is proposed to Secondly, the increased cost of fuel has be replaced with the site shown in the adversely affected vehicular traffic Reserves Bill currently before the across the Eyre Highway. Legislative Assembly? 4676 4676I[ASSEMBLY]

(3) What quality forest is contained on the (2) How many hectares have been included site to be exchanged for the Woodman in these purchases? Point reserve? (3) (a) How many further properties have Mrs CRAIG replied: there been offered for sale to the (1) The total area involved is 538 hectares. department in this area; The area includes a core of 80 hectares (b) how many hectares do these offered which will be set aside specifically for purchases represent? the magazine. The remaining 458 hectares will form a safety zone Mr O'CONNOR replied: surrounding the magazine and will It is not certain what the member means continue to be managed as a pine by the Chowerup-linicup district. For plantation. the purpose of answering the questions. (2) Approximately 113 hectares. it has been assumed that he is referring (3) Apart from some small unplanted to that section of the Warren River sections, the total area consists of a Water Reserve which is within the young pine plantation. Species planted Shires of Boyup Brook and Cranbrook. are Pinus radiata and Pinus pinaster. The quality is described as varying from (1) 5. poor to good according to the sites (2) 2460. involved. (3) (a) 3. EDUCATION: SCHOOL (b) 975. Chowerup 2163. Mr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister for Education: PUBLIC RELATIONS CONSULTANTS (1) What was the enrolment of Chowerup Mr W. WI Mitchell school at the commencement of the school year- 2165. Mr DAVIES, to the Premier: (a) 1978, (I) Is there still a contract between him and (b) 1979? Mr W. W. Mitchell for Mr Mitchell to perform public relations for the (2) What is the anticipated enrolment of Government? this school for 1980? (3) Have pre-school activities at Chowerup (2) If so, will he table a copy of the been terminated, and if so- contract? (a) from what date; Sir CHARLES COURT replied: (b) will there be pre-school facilities at (I) yes. Chowerup in 1980? (2) It has already been tabled in response to Mr P. V. JONES replied: question 1373 of the 24th August, 1978. (I) (a) 46 primary and 8pre-primary. (b) 47 primary and 3 pre-primary. (2) 42 primary and 3 pre-primary pupils. GOVERNMENT AUTHORITIES AND (3) (a) No. INSTRUMENTALITIES (b) Yes. Information, Publicity. Public Relations PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT Officers, and Press Secretaries Land: C'howerup-Unicup 2 166. Mr DAVIES, to the Premier: 2164. Mr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister (1) Which Government instrumentalities, representing the Minister for Works: authorities or other agencies, other than (1) How many properties have been Government departments, employ Press purchased by his department in the secretaries, information officers, Chowerup-Unicup district in the past six publicity officers, public relations months? officers or similar officers? [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979J 467767

It2) How many such officers are employed in (2) What finance will be involved in the each department? transfer and what Government (3) What salary is paid to each officer and departments will be contributing to the to what award or other wage and salary cost ? determination is it related? (3) When is it anticipated the transfer will (4) If the salaries paid are not related to be completed? awards or other wage and salary Mr RUSHTON replied: determinations, how are they arrived at? (I) to (3) Relocation of the railway (5) Are any further appointments at present marshalling yards at Bunbury cannot be in 1979-80? contemplated determined until such time as a regional Sir CHARLES COURT replied: plan for Bunbury has been finalised and (1) to (5) See answer to quesion 2155. accepted, The plan is being progressed by the Bunbury and Districts Planning GOVERNMENT BOARDS AND Committee which includes the City of COMMITTEES Bunbury. Sitting Fees A draft interim plan is expected to be received by the committee on the 21st 2 167. Mr DAVIES, to the Premier: November. (I) What is the current fee paid for- The cost has been assessed on a (a) half-day sitting; feasibility basis at $6.2 million in 1978 (b) Cull-day sitting, values. to representatives on Government boards and committees? (2) (a) When was the fee last adjusted; and EDUCATION: TECHNICAL COLLEGE (b) by how much? Perth (3) What constitutes- 2169. Mr JAMIESON, to the Minister (a) half-day; representing the Minister for Works: (b) full-day sitting? (1) What was the original tender price for Sir CHARLES COURT replied: stage I of the new Perth Technical (1) The standard fees are as follows- College? (a) (b) (2) What was the flnal cost of this building? Half Day Full Day (3) Could he indicate why the difference in prices? Chairman $54- S80 Members $40 $60 Mr O'CONNOR replied: (2) (a) The 1st July, 1978. (1) Tenders were not called. The work was (b) Approximately 12 per cent. carried out by the day labour organisation. The estimated cost in 1978 (3) (a) and (b) A sitting in excess of four was $27 40 000. hours is regarded as a full day (2) $2 764 298. provided there is a meal break. (3) Changes to the work originally Other sittings are treated as half estimated. days.

RAILWAYS DRAINAGE: RATES Binbury Marshalling Yards East Hunbury 2168. Mr MOIVER, to the Minister for 2170. Mr JAMIESON, to- the Minister Transport: representing the Minister for Works: (1) What is the current situation of (1) What has been the income for each transferring the marshalling yards at financial year derived from the East Bunbury to the area allocated near Bun'oury drainage scheme since the first Picton? rating in September 1967? 4678 4678[ASSEMBLY)

(2) What has been the annual cost of QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE maintaining this scheme since its CONSUMER AFFAIRS inception? Pilbara Living Costs Mr O'CONNOR replied: 1. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Consumer (1) Income from the East Bunbury drainage Affairs: scheme since September, 1967, has been- (1) Has the Government recently undertaken any surveys of prices in thie north and, if so, what was the outcome 1967-68 4088 of the survey? 1968-69 4082 1969-70 4413 (2) Does the Government intend to carry out such surveys regularly and, if so, 1970-71 4 362 how often? 197 1-72 4 174 197 2-73 4431 (3) At which localities will the surveys be 1973-74 5 005 carried out? 1974-75 5 091 Mr O'CONNOR replied: 1975-76 4644 1976-77 4 903 (1) to (3) 1 did receive a question without 1977-78 Nil notice in connection with this particular matter which I will answer in due 1978-79 Nil course. Some months ago the Government gave an undertaking that it $45 193 would carry out studies of this nature at regular intervals. Iff1 recollect correctly, they were to be at two-monthly (2) Operation and maintenance expenditure intervals. That has been done. since separate records were first kept for this scheme in 1962-63 has been- Mr Davies: What is the outcome of the survey? 1962-63 2476 Mr O'CONNOR: I have details of the 1963-64 2 318 outcome which I will place on the Table 1964-65 3 242 of the House shortly. 1965-66 1 442 1966-67 4452 Mr Davies: Why not now? 1967-68 4 193 1968-69 6982 1969-70 3 007 1970-71 3 266 EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT 197 1-72 5 337 Youth: School Leavers 1972-73 1 644 197 3-74 5 579 2. Mr B. T. BURKE, to the Premier: 1974-75 5 130 My question concerns the increasing 1975-76 1 652 1976-77 4020 rate of unemployment within the State. 1977-78 5 969 It is as follows- 1978-79 9 158 (1) IS the Premier aware of the great hardship that is being caused by the $69 867 serious and increasing rate of unemployment? (2) When does he expect there will be a Note: Interest and depreciation are not turnabout in unemployment figures included in the above figures. as they affect Western Australians? [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979]161 4679

(3) What specific provisions does the any State in the rest of Australia so far Government intend to make to as employment is concerned. That is the assist school leavers in their search key to the whole position. for employment once the school We already are seeing some of the year ends, bearing in mind that we benefits to employment. I have been are creating a generation of people advised, as late as today, by without any sort of some of work those involved in industry, and who experience? found last year to be difficult, that they Sir CHARLES COURT replied: are already seeing the benefit of some of (1) to (3) 1 cannot resist the temptation the projects and contracts that have to repeat, of course, that members been let. on the other side seem to have a Once a decision has been reached for a vested interest in this question of project to commence and people can see unemployment, and they never other projects down the line, there is a want to look at the positives. tendency on the part of industry. to gear Mr Tonkin: That is untrue, and you know it. up for it, We have asked people to do Mr Davies: We want positit'e steps. that in anticipation of additional work, and to make the most of the opportunity The SPEAKER: Order! to take full advantage of the potential. Sir CHARLES COURT: I want to remind So far as school leavers are concerned, it members of the large number of projects has been Government policy always to which are, in fact, being undertaken or do what it can to get employers to look about to be undertaken at the present very sympathetically at their needs for time. It was announced as late as this additional labour in the new year, with morning that a very large number of an eye to giving as much employment as tenders running into millions of dollars possible to school leavers. My advice have been let in respect of the Alcoa always has been to anticipate their needs project. A similar large number of and to get willing young people on their contracts will be let before the end of staffs in order to obtain work the year. All this generates work right in experience. the engineering shops, as well as in other facets of industry. It is logical and in addition to that my colleague, the sensible to expect that there will be an Minister for Labour and Industry-in ever-increasing demand for labour in conjunction With his Federal this State because of the projects counterpart-has been very positive and currently being undertaken and those very sensitive in generating opportunities which will be commenced early in the which, if they receive co-operation from new year. the trade union movement, will train many tradesmen who will have a role to Mr B. T. Burke: When do you expect this to play in the programme ahead of us. be reflected in the unemployment figures? I think I have covered the paints raised Sir CHARLES COURT: I am trying to by the honourable member. reply to the question. Mr B. T. Burke:, Thank you. Sir CHARLES COURT: The Government has made it clear it has not been PENSIONERS satisfied with the unemployment figures. Travel Concession Identity Cards No Government likes to see unemployment, especially at the rate 3. Mr HARMAN, to the Premier: which presently exists in Australia. (1) Is he aware that some pensioners eligible The member for Balcatta would know for the health benefit card, or otherwise the circumstances that led up to the expressed as "fringe benefits", since the present situation, and this Government 1st November, 1979, are not able to has left no stone unturned in its efforts obtain travel concession identity cards? to increase employment opportunities in (2) If so, why has this occurred, and who is this State. We have a better record than responsible? 4680 4680[ASSEMBLY]

Sir CHARLES COURT replied: (2) The report on a comparison of I thank the member for some notice of prices in Perth, Port Hedland, his question, the answer to which is as Dampier, and Karratha for follows- October, 1979, is tabled herewith. (3) It is intended that a further check (1) Yes. on prices will be made in mid- (2) The problem arose from a December, 1979. misunderstanding by the Prime (4) Yes. Minister's Department of the terms of my agreement to the The report was tabled (see paper No. 464). Commonwealth issuing concession cards to recipients of supporting parents' benefits and .other LOCAL GOVERNMENT pensioners who became entitled to a pensioner health benefit card under Carnarvon Shire new eligibility criteria. 5. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Local I have clarified the matter with the Government: Prime Minister and the State concession cards will be available (1) Has an investigation been conducted by for issue to the newly eligible a Local Government Department pensioners by the Department of auditor, Mr Breman, into expenditure Social Security within the next few by the Shire of Carnarvon? days. (2) Has his report, dated the 23rd October, been examined by the Minister? (3) Will she please advise the House CONSUMER AFFAIRS whether she intends to take any action Pilbara Living Costs on the matter and, if so, what action is proposed, and when will it be taken. 4. Mr SODEMAN, to the Minister for Consumer Affairs: Mrs CRAIG replied: (1) to (3) In the normal course of events, an I would like to indicate to members that audit has been carried out of the books some notice of this question was given. of the Shire of Carnarvon. The member Details were forwarded to the Minister's for Geraldton would be aware I made a office yesterday morning. It is as statement on Friday of last week in follows- which I indicated that some questions (1) Further to the undertaking to carry had arisen with regard to some shire out surveillance of retail prices in councils concerning the payment of selected Pilbara towns, has the some expenses. I said I was waiting for October assessment been audited reports. Until such time as that completed? has been done, and I am able to (2) If so, what are the results and will ascertain how widespread is the he table the findings? problem, and can decide what action, if (3) Is it intended that the surveillance any, is to be taken in the future, I of retail prices in the towns selected cannot say what will be done. will be maintained? Yes, I have read the report from the (4) Will he undertake to table the particular auditor, and the action I results of subsequent surveillance propose to take has already been checks as they become available? indicated in a Press release. Mr Davies: Especially if Parliament is not sitting. BOANS LTD. Mr O'CONNOR replied: Melville Store: Closure I thank the honourable member for notice of his question, the answer to 6. Mr HODGE, to the Premier: which is as follows- (1) Is the Government aware that Boans (]) Yes. department store at Melville is closing? [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979J]68 4681

(2) Was the Government consulted about RAILWAYS: ELECTRIFICATION this matter, and did the Government Fuel Conservation attempt to persuade the firm to continue operations in Melville? 8. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Transport: (3) Dues the Premier consider that the policy of his Government, its handling of (1) Is he aware that the Queensland the State's economy, and the alarming Cabinet decided yesterday to electrify level of unemployment in the Melville the whole of the State's railway system? district, may have contributed to the closure? (2) Is he further aware that in announcing the decision, the Queensland Premnier Sir CHARLES COURT replied: said- (1) to (3) In reply to the honourable We are a forward-thinking member's question, the only reference I have seen to this matter has been the Government. We have got to plan Press article that Boans Ltd. is closing ahead, especially with the growing down this particular store at Melville. I uncertainty of world oil supplies. can only speak from my memory of that There is a serious situation article, but I believe the arrangement confronting the world when it was part of a negotiated exchange with comes to energy resources. Some some other firm. Also, if I remember people may niot believe it. It is a correctly, the company concerned- little like preaching to heathens. Boans Ltd.-announccd it would be They see and they hear but they absorbing all the work force involved don't believe. arid it would undertake some expansion in another direction. (3) Why is the Court Government not I can only suggest to the honourable taking action to electrify Western member that the change appears to have Australia's rail system, or at least the been made in the ordinary course of suburban passenger services, to conserve business, and it reflects a degree of scarce fuel resources? enthusiasm and confidence in the future rather than the gloomy outlook that he (4) What action is the Government taking has. to conserve scarce fuel resources?

TECHNOLOG ICA L CHANGE Mr RUSHTON replied: Actions of Government (1) to (4) Because of previous statements 7. Mr BRYCE, to the Minister for Labour and made, the Leader of the Opposition Industry: ought to be aware that the Government is reviewing the situation and working As it is now just slightly more than 12 up a case for the introduction of months since Goverbmrent members, at electrification, not only for the his instigation, defeated a motion to passenger services but also for the establish an all-party committee of freight services within the State. He inquiry to investigate the impact of would have had the opportunity also to technological change in Western receive some research documents Australia; would he be good enough to relating to fuel and the approach that indicate to the House what action has the Court Government has to it. He been taken by him, his department, or should know the measures being taken the Government of which he is a in regard to conservation and the best member, to ensure that the benefits of use of energy. It is somewhat surprising this wave of technological change will be that the Leader of the Opposition should maximised and that the problems will be attempt to imply that nothing is being mninimised? done in the State when he should Mr O'CONNOR replied: know-if he does any reading at If the honourable member would care to all-that the Government is well place the question on notice, I will give forward in its work in the areas that he him the full detail. has questioned. 4682 4682[ASSEMBLY]

EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT CONSUMER AFFAIRS Youth: Training Programme Pilbara Living Costs 9. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Labour and 10. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Consumer Industry: Affairs: (1) Is he aware that the unemployment I would like to ask further questions f igures for October show that arising out of the answers to previous approximately 8 000 people in the 15 to questions without notice as follows- 19-year-old age group are unemployed? (1) Was the sample of goods used in (2) Can he say how many of the training the October Pilbara prices survey positions involved in the programme identical in each of the towns which he has announced in conjunction surveyed, or did it vary as in the with the Federal Minister for July and August surveys? Employment will be available to the (2) I quote from the August survey unemployed in this age group? report, tabled on the 28th August, (3) What other action dfoes the State that read in part- Government intend to take to deal with the problem of these 8 000 young A comparison of the total of unemployed Western Australians? prices obtained and the percentage increase in Perth Mr O'CONNOR replied: between the July and August (1) to (3) If the honourable member were surveys is considered to have really sincere in asking this question, I little validity.. would have thought he would give some notice of it. As he would know, it is I ask the Minister: Does today's difficult to answer such a question off result similarly lack validity, or, if it the cuff. It is anticipated that the new is valid, will he please explain the training scheme will commence early in basis for such a claim of validity? the New Year. A committee will be set (3) If he claims it is valid, why is the up composed of representatives of the Government not prepared to extend Confederation of Western Australian this type of survey to different Industry, the unions, and the regions of the State, such as the Department of Labour and Industry to Kimberley, where the prices of decide which people will be selected for goods are high also? traini ng. On top of that, we have Mr O'CONNOR replied: programmes almost ready to go, and I (1) to (3) I request that the honourable instance Worsley, Alwest, Yeelirrie, and the North-West Shelf. member place the question on the notice paper. He will then have the Mr T. H. Jones: You are looking a bit ahead. opportunity to compare the goods used and the validity of this survey Mr O'CONNOR: At least we planned ahead with the survey tabled. and prepared ahead. It has taken years to get to this stage. As the member for Collie would well know, tenders worth many millions of dollars have been EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT called for one of the projects. The Yeelirrie project is under way, and some Unemployment: 1980 tenders are out for the North-West HI. Mr B. T. BURKE, to the Premier: Shelf project. (1) In view of the fact that most of the In reply to the member for Dianella's matters to which he alluded tonight in question, we hope that these projects reply to questions on unemployment are will cope substantially with the problem similar to or identical with other matters of the unemployed young people and that have been advanced on previous others, provided of course that we do not occasions, is the Premier of the view that have a large influx of people from the the State of Western Australia can Eastern States looking for these jobs as expect continuing unemployment for we have had in the past. some time to come? [Tuesday, 13th November, 1979] 484683

(2) If that is the view of the Premier, will he be guessing. In the past we have had the explain to the House at what level he experience of seeing unemployment drop believes unemployment will persist dramatically, and on the other hand, in during the coming year? a period of considerable prosperity, out of the blue, unemployment has risen. Sir CHARLES COURT replied: This can happen when a job is (1) 1 would have thought the member for terminated and there is a hiatus before Balcatta would be satisfied with the another one commences. answers he has received because he would have been able to discern for Mr B. T. Burke: Do you think it could be himself the direction in which the worse? economy is moving and the direction in Sir CHARLES COURT: The honourable which the projects are moving-projects member would love it to be-we know that are well known to all members. It is about those prayers! a fact of life that such projects can generate a consequential growth which Mr Davies: Give us some good housekeeping! can be even more valuable to the Sir CHARLES COURT: All the Opposition economy in money terms and in depth members-except the member for than are the primary projects Swan-say their little prayers hoping themselves. that the unemployment level will rise. I hope the level of unemployment will start on a downward turn but we must Mr B. T. Burke: Why do you always poke expect that there will be a seasonal, rise such fun at such a serious problem? in the unemployment figures because of the school leavers coming into the work Sir CHARLES COURT: I would be amazed force soon. if at this time next year the figure is This is something that happens every higher than it is now. A steady flow of year, regardless of whether there is a workers will be needed for the projects prasperous economy or an economy in already listed and which will commence recession. However, with some degree of shortly. realism, we anticipate that the figures will go up when the school leavers feed Mr B. T. Burke:. That is all you Were asked, into the work force from now onwards. and that is all you need have said. It would be my hope and my ambition Sir CHARLES COURT: The honourable that once we get these projects flowing, member is starting to gloat. I am just there will be a Strong demand for labour reminding him that the Opposition and there will be a steady decrease in seems to have a vested interest in the number of unemployed. That is the unemployment. We would prefer to talk objective of us all. about employment. (2) 1 would not be so bold as to predict the Several members interjected. level of unemployment next year-anyone who did that would just The SPEAKER: Order!